Redistricting Subcommittee Hearing in Dallas Witness: - June 28, 2003

Page 1 1 2 3 4 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 5 COMMITTEE ON REDISTRICTING 6 7 8 9 10 11 SUBCOMMITTEE HEARING IN DALLAS 12 13 14 15 JUNE 28, 2003 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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Page 2 1 2 3 Location: UT Southwestern Medical Center, North Campus 6000 Harry Hines Boulevard 4 Dallas, Texas 5 6 Appearances: 7 Representative , Chair Representative Kent Gruesendorf, Vice-Chair 8 Representative Carl Isett Representative Richard Raymond 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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Page 3 1 2 3 P R O C E E D I N G S 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If I could have 5 your attention. We are going to get the hearing started. 6 The subcommittee on redistricting for the Dallas public 7 hearing for Saturday, June the 28th come to order. The 8 clerk will call the roll of those present. 9 MR. SHEWMAKER: Marchant? 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Here. I am here. 11 MR. SHEWMAKER: Grusendorf? 12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I am here. 13 MR. SHEWMAKER: Isett? 14 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Here. 15 MR. SHEWMAKER: Raymond? 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Here. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: There being four 18 members of the subcommittee present. There is a 19 present of the subcommittee on redistricting. 20 We will begin to take testimony. If you 21 would allow me to kind of go over the way we will conduct 22 the hearing today, I would appreciate it. 23 Today we will have public hearing. I think 24 we will probably have it for 12 hours. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm sorry, sir, but we

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Page 4 1 can't hear you. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, ma'am, 3 that you cannot hear me. I will speak up. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Turn the volume up or 5 stand up or something. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is there someone in 7 the front row that would be willing to vacate their seat so 8 this lady can come down and -- 9 MR. SHEWMAKER: I'll do that, I'll take care 10 of that. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have today where 12 us we have several things available so that we can make the 13 public hearing more successful and more friendly to public. 14 We have a translator here today. Anyone that would like to 15 give their testimony in Spanish, we have someone that will 16 be happy to translate your testimony. Let me identify her 17 at that this time. She's right here. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We don't want 19 redistricting. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: And she will be 21 happy -- anyone that would like to have someone translate 22 for her for your testimony, she will be happy to do that. 23 There is a court reporter here today and 24 everything -- every testimony will be taken down, so you can 25 rest assured that everything that you have to say today will

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Page 5 1 be taken into consideration. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you be polite? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time, if we 5 can proceed. We have about 300 people that are signed up to 6 testify. We would like to hear each and every person that 7 would like to give their testimony. Mr. Raymond? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, 9 although it is clear to me that frankly that this hearing 10 today is simply window dressing for all of illegalities that 11 occurred before today in this process. I am here and I 12 intend to fully participate and in an effort to, 13 Mr. Chairman, to establish as fair a hearing as possible for 14 today and knowing that as I do and many in this room 15 probably do follow the political process, two and-a-half 16 years ago, when the legal redistricting occurred, it was 17 widely reported and understood that your interest in running 18 for congressional district here in Dallas, and Mr. Sessions 19 then moved into that district, bumped you -- I was mad that 20 they did that, by the way -- but none the less, he did. 21 And given that it is at least likely that you 22 would consider running for a new district that you are 23 trying to -- or this process the trying to create for the 24 Republican party in this area at the expense of minority 25 voters, I would ask you -- I would ask you, Mr. Chairman,

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Page 6 1 out of a sense of fairness and so that there can be less of 2 a , that at this time you yield the 3 gavel to Mr. Grusendorf, that he can preside and people 4 won't have to wonder if you're running this meeting, you 5 want to create a district for yourself like you tried two 6 years ago. I think Mr. Grusendorf, if he has the gavel, 7 will let you fully participate with the questions. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is that your 9 statement, Mr. Raymond? 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am asking if you 11 will yield, and if you won't yield to Mr. Grusendorf, then I 12 would make a motion that you yield the gavel to 13 Mr. Grusendorf so there won't be any conflict that I believe 14 you have, Mr. Chairman. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett? 16 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you, 17 Mr. Chairman. Do we intend to draw any maps today? 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That was not our 19 intent. Our intent is to take public testimony. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: The intention is to 21 take public testimony concerning the lines as they are 22 currently drawn or might be drawn in the future. Thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunn, just a 24 minute, please. As a courtesy to other House members that 25 are here and in the hearing today, as is our custom in the

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Page 7 1 House of Representatives, if a member comes to the meeting, 2 we allow them, to the extent that there is room on stage, to 3 sit and participate in the meeting. 4 Mr. Dunnam? 5 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman, if 6 Mr. Isett's comment on the record that the only purpose 7 today is to take testimony on the existing map, then why do 8 we have a map over here that is the proposed map that does 9 include a new Republican district in the Dallas County area? 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That is part of the 11 statement that I was trying to read the lady when I 12 recognized Mr. Raymond. 13 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I was just curious 14 from Mr. Isett's comments why that map is here. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I will be happy to 16 answer that question. 17 The map that we have on this side is the map 18 that currently exists. And as you filled out your witness 19 affirmation form, you had an opportunity to check against, 20 and that would be someone that is against redistricting, 21 against doing any new redistricting and keeping the current 22 plan. 23 And then the other was someone that would for 24 doing a new plan. This is the plan and the chairman of our 25 committee, Joe Crab, requested that each of the hearings --

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Page 8 1 and there were three hearings scheduled for Thursday and 2 there are three hearings scheduled for today -- and then the 3 Senate has one hearing scheduled today in Laredo, and it 4 requested of the House subcommittees that we put up the last 5 map that was voted in committee so that there would be 6 before you the last map that was voted for a committee. The 7 purpose of the map over on the right is to -- for everyone 8 in these public hearings to see the map that is put out. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I 10 wonder if you would do me the courtesy of answering my 11 question. You will, given your conflict of interest, you 12 will yield your gavel to Mr. Grusendorf. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I will be happy 14 to -- I will be happy to put that to a vote of committee. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, it's 16 not necessary to put it to a vote if you would be willing 17 to, in good faith, yield the gavel without us having to vote 18 on it. I may have been born yesterday but I stayed up late 19 last night, Mr. Chairman. You are going to be involved in 20 drawing that map, you and both know it. I won't be involved 21 but you will. It's a clear conflict, Mr. Chairman. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Speaker of the 23 House has appointed Mr. Crab as the chairman of the 24 committee. Mr. Crab has asked me to chair this meeting; I 25 intend to chair the meeting. I have chaired meetings,

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Page 9 1 hundreds of meetings in the House in a fair and impartial 2 way, and I recognize that the purpose of this meeting is to 3 have a public hearing. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, with 7 all due respect, all of those hearings you presided over 8 were not as much a conflict. You weren't there sitting 9 there trying to draw a congressional district you wanted to 10 run in and displace thousands of minority voters. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, I 12 intend to chair the meeting. 13 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Chairman, I would 14 like to make a motion -- Mr. Chairman, point of information 15 please. In 1991, did a Texas House member chair a committee 16 from the Senate committee and went on to be a congressman, 17 as well did chair committee meetings 18 in the Senate before going to congress after that? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am not -- in my 20 opinion, she had the right to chair the committee. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: If you would like for 22 me to make a motion or to act on the motion, if you would 23 recognize me to doing that. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I will recognize 25 Mr. Raymond's first.

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Page 10 1 Mr. Raymond, I would recognize you for a 2 motion. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I will make that 4 motion, but first of all, let me say this: In 1991 those 5 hearings were legal. These hearings are not. And Miss 6 Johnson did not displace minority voters; she, in fact, has 7 been a champion for all minority people in the state. 8 And with all due -- with all due respect to 9 my colleague Mr. Isett, to compare to try in any way to 10 insinuate and compare Eddie Bernice Johnson's commitment to 11 minority voters in the state, Mr. Marchant to her, is just a 12 bad comparison. You've got to try another one. 13 But if you won't yield it, Mr. Chairman, then 14 I would like an official vote. 15 Anybody here think he out to yield the gavel? 16 (Audience outburst.) 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf? 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Chairman, I 19 understand that some people feel strongly on both sides of 20 this issue, but we came here today in an attempt to hold a 21 public hearing. It is very difficult to speak over an 22 audience that is screaming. 23 I asked Martin Frost a few minutes ago, I 24 said, Congressman Frost, is this was going to the be a 25 replay of Brownsville? He assured me the people of Dallas

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Page 11 1 were more courteous. And if the people in this area would 2 be willing to let the various people express their opinions, 3 I would call on Congressman Frost and ask him if your 4 constituents would allow us to proceed with this forum. 5 Congressman Frost? 6 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman? 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam. 8 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: There is at least at 9 most or more a bus load of people from my district that are 10 here. I don't think you're appropriate to call Congressman 11 Frost out of the audience to tell my constituents what to 12 do. Thank you. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: We have got 300 14 witnesses today. We would like to hear what they have to 15 say. Mr. Dunnam, I am very disappointed -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I resent 17 Mr. Grusendorf saying that the people of South Texas are not 18 courteous. We stood up for our rights. You stand up and 19 you didn't give -- I would like to make that motion. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, I 21 would be happy to recognize you for that motion. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you. I would 23 make that motion and I would also like to point out that two 24 days ago in Lubbock, where Mr. Isett was running for 25 congress and was trying to get a new district, you yielded

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Page 12 1 the gavel to him for two hours. It seems you could do the 2 same here. 3 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Where am I trying to 4 run for congress? 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I would like to 6 move -- I would like to move -- excuse me, I think I have 7 the floor Carl. I would like to make a motion that you 8 yield the gavel to Mr. Grusendorf so there will not be a 9 conflict of interest, Mr. Chairman. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, I did 11 yield the gavel to Mr. Isett the other day for a couple of 12 hours and I intend to yield the gavel to every member of the 13 committee at one time or another today. That's a custom 14 that's done and I intend to do that. 15 I will start the meeting today as chairman, 16 and I will yield the gavel to each member of the committee 17 that is present. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Put it to a vote. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We certainly are. 20 Mr. Isett just a second. Mr. Raymond makes 21 the motion that the chairman of the committee seize the 22 gavel to the vice-chairman of the committee. Is there a 23 second to the motion? 24 There is no second on the motion. The motion 25 dies for lack of a second.

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Page 13 1 Today we intend to start our public hearings 2 by recognizing those people in the audience. 3 MR. VERNON: Mr. Chairman, may I be 4 recognized? 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You may, sir. 6 MR. VERNON: It's my understanding from the 7 House rules and committee rules, and perhaps we can confer 8 with your committee clerk, it's my understanding that in a 9 committee hearing, no second is required to bring a motion. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: My clerk and 11 Mr. Grusendorf agree with you, sir, and we will proceed with 12 the vote. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. 14 MR. VERNON: Mr. Chair, may I be recognized? 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon, after 16 we take this vote, I will happy to recognize you, sir. 17 The motion before you is to ask the -- to 18 remove the Chair and to turn the gavel over to 19 Mr. Grusendorf. 20 If the clerk will call the role. I will not 21 vote on this. 22 MR. SHEWMAKER: Grusendorf? 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: No. 24 MR. SHEWMAKER: Isett? 25 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: No.

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Page 14 1 MR. SHEWMAKER: McClendon? Raymond? 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Aye. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: There being two nos 4 and one yes and one abstention, the motion does not carry. 5 Mr. Raymond, I agreed that I would recognize 6 Mr. Vernon. 7 MR. VERNON: Chairman Marchant, I have just 8 been advised by the Mayor Pro Tem from Fort Worth that a 9 crowd is being denied into the buildings. I think he has 10 the resolution from the City of Fort Worth opposing. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We'd love to have 12 them. 13 MR. VERNON: Can you explain the mechanics of 14 the people that are having difficulty getting into the 15 building? 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Dr. Webber from UT 17 Southwest is here. The security people have told me that 18 once the fire marshal in this room, at least, once it 19 reaches a certain level for fire marshal purposes -- I see 20 some seats. 21 MR. VERNON: There are all sorts of seats 22 available, I can't understand. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon, I want 24 everybody that wants to be in this hearing -- everybody that 25 wants to be in this hearing, we want to have them here.

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Page 15 1 Everybody is welcome. We want to make sure that if somebody 2 is here -- 3 MR. VERNON: We seem to be operating on a 4 quota system to allow access to the system. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would one of the 6 volunteers -- if I could have somebody from the security 7 come up to the table and speak to me about that. UT 8 Southwest Medical School is our host today. They have done 9 the best -- they have done a wonderful job of trying the 10 accommodate us. There is no reason whatsoever that UT 11 Southwest Medical School would try to limit access to this 12 meeting. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, I will 14 go down and take his place, he can have mine. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We want you here, 16 sir. We want everyone. If we could have someone from 17 security please come up to the podium so I can ask them 18 about what Mr. Vernon is talking about, please. 19 I would like to, while I am waiting for 20 someone from security to come to the podium, we want 21 everybody that wants to testify today to testify. 22 MR. VERNON: Obviously, the planning for this 23 hearing is not adequate. The officials are saying we are at 24 fire code. There are literally scores of people being 25 denied to this hearing. We have allowed -- Mayor Pro Tem is

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Page 16 1 allowed entry by someone else leaving, so please be aware 2 that there are many others who would like to participate but 3 because of inadequate planning and the rush to misjudgment, 4 they do not have access. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I do not believe 6 that UT Southwest and their staff did an inadequate job of 7 planning. If those of you that have seats available will 8 allows us to concede those seats, then those of you left 9 standing won't have to leave the room. 10 Mr. Vernon? Mr. Vernon? Mr. Vernon, would 11 you give us the courtesy of not using the telephone at the 12 podium? Can I ask you a question? There was a gentleman 13 that denied access to the auditorium or the building. Was 14 he denied access to the auditorium or the building? 15 MR. VERNON: Mayor Pro Tem Ralph McCloud was 16 denied access to the hearing room. Mayor Pro Tem Ralph 17 McCloud is now in the hearing room. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 19 MR. VERNON: He replaces another citizen of 20 Fort Worth. 21 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman? 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time I 23 would like to -- I'm sorry, Mr. Dunnam. I don't know if 24 this committee is going to have any additional hearings. I 25 would request that there be some additional advance work

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Page 17 1 done in regard to security work and intimidation. 2 Mr. Raymond and myself arrived early this morning. We are 3 members of the Texas House of Representatives. 4 Mr. Raymond's a member of this committee. We were asked to 5 leave the building when we arrived. 6 Well, I apologize. No, I was asked not to 7 come in until a certain time as well. 8 At this time, I would like to proceed. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Polly Maureen Wrey. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 11 THE WITNESS: As it relates to the witness 12 affirmation form where the participants are checking 13 against -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 15 THE WITNESS: -- does that indicate they are 16 against this proposed map, or does it indicate that they are 17 against the current map on which these congressional 18 districts were rounded in the past? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am, that's 20 a good question. 21 THE WITNESS: Mr. Marchant, I really want to 22 be sure, because I am aware there was conflict in Austin at 23 the original hearings. So I wanted to be sure that they 24 know that when they -- and that we know that when they say, 25 against, they are saying that they are against any

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Page 18 1 changes -- 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 3 THE WITNESS: -- in the current map. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We had hearings in 5 Lubbock. We had over 200 people there. If someone has 6 checked the box and they don't feel like they have checked 7 it adequately, they will have an opportunity to when they 8 come up to podium to say that. 9 But those that are checking against are 10 against doing any redistricting whatsoever. They are 11 against doing any plan. 12 Those that are for are for this plan. This 13 plan over here on the right was up as courtesy so that 14 everyone could see what the committee voted out in its last 15 meeting. 16 There has been a lot of accusation that the 17 plans are hidden and this is the last bill that was voted 18 out of the committee. And this was the existing map. 19 So that those that are neutral will be here 20 just to speak on the concept; and yes, ma'am, everybody that 21 speaks will have an opportunity to make that known and put 22 it in the court record as well. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let 24 me make it clear to everybody here that everybody that is 25 against any changes in the map, as you testify, please,

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Page 19 1 please, make sure that you make that clear. If you are 2 signed up but do not wish to testify, then please retrieve 3 your affirmation and make sure you write it on there so that 4 there is no confusion. 5 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We want that to be 7 clear and we have been explaining that to the people out 8 front. We would like to proceed with the testimony. 9 This is how we are going to do the testimony. 10 As we have received the forms, we have put them in the order 11 that we received them. Picked out the persons that are 12 elected officials, and since they are elected and represent 13 a great group of people, we are going to take that testimony 14 first. 15 We are going to go with against and then for 16 and then against and then for; and we are going to do that 17 all day and evening. There is an original 1:00 o'clock to 18 3:00 o'clock lunch posted and we will not be taking that 19 lunch. We will try to keep a quorum here on the podium to 20 listen to testimony while we take a short break, when it's 21 necessary, so you can take a short break when it's 22 necessary. Due to the number of people here, we will not be 23 taking any kind of a break, and we will be working the 24 entire day. 25 I would request that we stay within a three

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Page 20 1 to five minute testimony so that everyone can get a chance 2 to testify today. We would like to hear everyone's 3 testimony take would like to give verbal testimony. 4 If you don't want to give verbal testimony, 5 when your name is called, you can just raise your hand and 6 we can record your vote without you having to give verbal 7 testimony, if you don't want to do that. 8 We would request that you stay within the 9 three to five minute time frame. Perhaps later in the day, 10 when it looks like we are running out of time and we want to 11 get everybody, there will be some official action to take a 12 time limit; but I do not intend to do that at this time. I 13 would like to just rely on the witnesses themselves. 14 MR. VERNON: Mr. Marchant, can I (inaudible). 15 I never sat through a House committee meeting where the 16 people that wanted to testify were restricted to a three to 17 five minute time frame. Do you think really it's necessary 18 in this context to limit it to three to five minutes? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon, that 20 was my request. That is a request -- 21 MR. VERNON: It's simply a request, it's not 22 a requirement? 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It's a simple 24 request. I am requesting that. 25 If becomes obvious later in the day that by

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Page 21 1 not adopting the rule like that everyone will not get to 2 testify, the Chair is going to entertain a motion at that 3 time; but we do not intend to do that up front and we would 4 appreciate your cooperation. 5 At this time, the Chair would like to 6 recognize -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond? 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Before you begin, I 10 just wanted to ask you, I am being told that people who 11 leave the room are being told they can't come back in. I 12 would really like to ask the Chairman -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The fire marshal 14 has come to security and said -- 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: This a big facility. 16 Besides this room, this is a big facility. I wonder if 17 something can be done to try to set up another room or make 18 it available for the overflow crowd. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I think Dr. Webber 20 was just here a moment ago. He is in the process of trying 21 to get that set up, Mr. Raymond. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I guess I need to 23 ask some clarification from the fire marshal, because if I 24 see some empty seats and people walk out -- 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have people

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Page 22 1 standing on the side, if they would sit down. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, the 3 other thing you asked me before we began, I would like to 4 make an opening statement. I didn't have one prepared, but 5 I would like to make a couple of comments before we begin, 6 if that's okay. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Certainly. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You know, 9 Mr. Chairman, I have kept asking myself why -- why you are 10 so anxious to rush this thing through, and I look back and I 11 believe Mr. Grusendorf has asked me in the past to go read 12 up in the legal hearings that occurred in 2000 and 2001 13 which is when redistricting was supposed to be done 14 according to the U.S. Constitution. 15 In reading through that, I noticed that that, 16 for example, Mr. Creusing, who was a member of the full 17 committee and is not here today, and was also a Republican, 18 said at the time, we are going to have redistricting done 19 our way or it's going to go to the courts and that's the way 20 it's going to be. It's not hearsay, it's quoted from the 21 newspaper. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, has 23 the floor. Mr. Raymond and I have been in many hearings 24 together, and I intend to let Mr. Raymond make his 25 statement. I would appreciate attention to that statement

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Page 23 1 and then we will -- I would like to go to witnesses as soon 2 as I can. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What's your name? 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: My name is Kenny 5 Marchant. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We cannot read your 7 name on the deal, what's your name? 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: My name is Kenny 9 Marchant and I am recognizing Mr. Raymond. Mr. Raymond? 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And so then I 11 remembered, of course, having been a member of the 12 legislature, this is my fifth term, and last session I was a 13 member when we took up redistricting, that, in the House, 14 which is majority of Democrats at the time and the Senate 15 was a majority of Republicans, and that Senator David Sibley 16 who was from Waco, was a very powerful senator at the time, 17 made many statements saying don't pass redistricting, don't 18 do anything because we have got the General Attorney, he's a 19 Republican, Cornyn, we control this process, let's just let 20 it go the court, we can control it better there, are the 21 quotes I could read you. You have all seen them. 22 Two years ago, during this time, the summer, 23 Governor Perry was asked to call a special session to deal 24 with redistricting by some so it wouldn't go to courts. He 25 said over and over, the courts should deal with it.

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Page 24 1 The State Republic party chair, 2 Mrs. Weddington, continues to be the State Republican party 3 chair, said the courts, we ought to let fair and impartial 4 judges deal with this instead of the politicians. That was 5 her feeling at the time. 6 And I kept asking myself, why did they want 7 it to go to the court? Why did they want to go to the 8 court? Well, they did, and courts worked off the map 9 eventually that the drew and the Republican 10 party is very happy with. 11 And they certified that map; went to Supreme 12 Court and certified by the Supreme Court in compliance with 13 the Voting Rights Act. 14 And then, Mr. Chairman, we have elections, 15 but something happened on the way to the forum. Some of 16 these districts voted for a Republican governor but a 17 democratic member of congress. And there was some, like 18 Mr. Tom DeLay who believe that people should be able to vote 19 for Democrats and Republicans, they should only be able to 20 vote for Republicans. 21 I asked myself, okay, so they wanted it to go 22 to the courts; it went to court, that's what the 23 constitution says, redistrict every ten years. Not every 24 two, not every four, not every six. The Constitution of 25 United States does not also say the Texas legislature must

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Page 25 1 redistrict congressional seats; it says it can. If it 2 doesn't, then the court will. That's what happened. 3 And then, Mr. Chairman, earlier this year, or 4 a month ago, I went back and looked at the videotape on the 5 Internet. We had two days of hearings. And in that first 6 day you, Mr. Chairman, said to me, Mr. Raymond, I wish you 7 were going to take up congressional redistricting this year. 8 I never had any doubt back in December of last year. I 9 said, if you knew that, then why didn't you do field 10 hearings in January, February, March, April and May when all 11 of committee members could attend, instead of telling 12 Richard Raymond, if you want to go to a hearing, you have to 13 go to Lubbock, but you can't go to the only hearing that was 14 down on border at Brownsville. And when I asked permission 15 to go the one in Brownsville, the chairman of the committee 16 looked at me and said you have been assigned to Lubbock 17 that's where you're going to go, that's where I expect 18 you're going to go. You told me, Mr. Chairman, on the 19 record, I looked at it again, I looked at it on the Internet 20 on May, May 2nd, I expected us to take this up again, I 21 never had any doubt. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, since 23 you are quoting me -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yeah. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: -- I would like to

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Page 26 1 say to you that you asked me in committee and my response 2 was, when the Speaker of the House formed a redistricting 3 committee and made me chairman, I didn't have any doubt at 4 that point that redistricting would be a subject we 5 discussed because there was a committee created for that 6 purpose. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That's not what you 8 said. I went back and looked at it, Mr. Chairman. You 9 actually referred to last year. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I respectfully 11 disagree. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I move that point 13 along. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You know that I 15 have extended you every courtesy today. One you have -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: If you want to 17 continue to talk about that -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What I would like 19 to do is just have you complete your statement and let us go 20 to witnesses. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The point I wanted 22 to make there, you had the opportunity -- I don't mean you, 23 you are not the full chair, Crab is. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Right. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Although, I strongly

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Page 27 1 believe you should be doing redistricting every two or four 2 years. It shouldn't be every ten years, as our founding 3 fathers envisioned. That you do it right; that you do it 4 legal; that you do, since the passage of the Voting Rights 5 Act, that you do what has always been done, that you have 6 hearings over several months, all over the state, and you 7 allow all members of committee to participate fully and 8 meaningfully. 9 So I am thinking, what's going on here, and I 10 as I keep reading the clues that you-all give, then it 11 became clear to me, particularly I guess about ten days ago 12 when one -- one of these political scientists that is often 13 hired by either the Democrats or the Republicans to do 14 research, from , from the , that the 15 reason the Republican party was doing this now, the reason 16 they had parked this in federal court for two years is so 17 that they would then be in a position they thought they 18 would be in now, that a majority of the House and Senate, 19 you are doing now because eight years from now there will be 20 so many minorities in the state they won't be able to do it 21 again. 22 I read that, and this is someone who had 23 worked for your party as well as mine, and he was just 24 commenting as he was looking at it, he said, they have to do 25 it now because this is their only chance. It doesn't matter

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Page 28 1 if they are going to hurt minorities in the process, 2 because, Mr. Chairman, with all due respect, I don't for one 3 minute believe that Tom DeLay, who is driving this as you 4 know, because you saw his chief of staff in the back room of 5 that hearing. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I was sitting back 7 there with you. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: He introduced 9 himself to me in the back room with four or five of the 10 Republican members, and then he walked in room when Mr. 11 Kenny was carrying this bill, was waiting for this map, he 12 walked up to the room, Mr. Jim Ellis who works with Tom 13 Delay, with maps rolled up under his arm, Mr. Kenny said, 14 the maps are here, we can proceed. 15 I don't for one minute believe that this is 16 being done because you want to help minorities in rural 17 Texas have equal representation. So you know I have to file 18 a lawsuit in federal court because I felt the Voting Rights 19 Act was violated, and several of us had to go to Ardmore to 20 bring attention to this issue. 21 And it was after that -- it was a day and a 22 half after a widely reported meeting by Tom DeLay in the 23 Governor's mansion with Mr. Rick Perry, day and a half after 24 that meeting Mr. Perry called a press conference to say he 25 will call us into special session to deal with two things.

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Page 29 1 He said, congressional redistricting and possible funding 2 for medical schools on the border. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, we are 4 going to be here to 11:00 or 12:00 trying that hear these 5 witnesses. At some point, the witnesses who are here have 6 to testify. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Then I will finish 8 with this is to say, it starts now finally starting to make 9 sense why you are in such a rush, why you would do something 10 unprecedented, Mr. Marchant, is to have six hearings in two 11 days in six cities, political committee without getting 12 any -- doing something that had never been done before, 13 because if you don't get it done now, then you won't be able 14 to do it later. 15 This is your only chance to take away the 16 voting rights of minorities all over this state and rural 17 Texas, all over this state, and I am not going to take it, 18 Mr. Chairman. 19 (Audience outburst.) 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time, I 21 would like to recognize people that are in the audience that 22 I recognize that are here that I am not sure whether they 23 are going to testify or not, but I'm going to begin -- I 24 will remind you that there will be another public hearing in 25 Dallas on June the 7th -- July the 7th.

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Page 30 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: We'll be there. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It's going to be at 3 the University of North Texas system at Dallas down on 4 Hampton Road. We have some seats here in the middle and up 5 at the top that I see, and so any of you that would like to 6 sit down and so that those outside can come in and take part 7 in the hearing, we appreciate if you would do that. 8 At this time, the Chair did -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman, down 10 here. It's my understanding, although I don't represent 11 them, we do share some common goals, and in interest in this 12 process, there are two Killeen city councilmen, Fred Cosper 13 -- excuse me, Fred Latham and Scott Cosper that are being 14 denied access into the room. If we could have someone from 15 security perhaps escort those gentleman in as elected 16 officials. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Both of them have 18 testified in two or three other previous hearings. I know 19 they have been the hearings with them. We would love to 20 have them. 21 At this time, the Chair recognizes 22 Commissioner Lester Gibson, Texas Organization of Black 23 County Commissioners, and he is here to testify against the 24 bill. 25 COMMISSIONER LESTER GIBSON

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Page 31 1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the 2 opportunity to be the first. I was almost the last the last 3 testimony. 4 Before I go on, I want to go on to say, 5 Representative Raymond, you are not alone, okay? 6 Our government calls for redistricting every 7 ten years. Even though it's not prohibited in the state 8 constitution, the state constitution takes a lower case to 9 our federal government, as you know. 10 What we need to do, Mr. Chairman, is quit 11 playing games. I sit at the last committee hearing, you 12 gave a whole bunch of testimony, and it like went through 13 deaf ears. We just going through a process, I do 14 understand. I do think we to need to participate in the 15 process in order for that to be a matter of record. 16 Let's cut to the chase: We understand that 17 somebody is messing with Texas. We know who is messing with 18 Texas. 19 We should not have this much of a partisan 20 politics played in this redistricting process. All of you 21 went through a redistricting phase. I guess the Republicans 22 got what they want, they got control of the House and they 23 got control of the Senate. 24 But what would have happened if you did not 25 get control? I guess it would be more of a fervor at this

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Page 32 1 particular point. 2 The fact of the matter that we have 3 redistricted people that voted, everyone in my 4 11th Congressional District, we have voted. There was a big 5 partisan thing; but so happened in my 11th District, we vote 6 and lean a certain way. Moderates control, not Republican 7 or Democratic control. The 11th Congressional District 8 part, why don't we move on with regards to it and quit 9 spending tax monies, money trying the accomplish partisan 10 politic. 11 As I close -- as I close -- I am trying to be 12 brief. I am trying to keep up with what you assigned. 13 As I close, don't think that minorities are 14 falling for this game that you-all are putting to us that 15 it's going to help us. That's an outright lie. We 16 understand. 17 I don't want you to -- I don't want you to 18 address and think that we falling for that, because that 19 plan there, which I am against the plan that you are 20 proposing. I am for the plan that exists now. 21 This particular plan right here basically 22 will regress minorities. I want you to know we are not 23 falling for that. Thank you. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It's good to see 25 you again, Commissioner.

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Page 33 1 MR. MABRY: May I be recognized? Ask 2 Mr. Gibson a few questions. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Your name, sir. 4 MR. MABRY: John Mabry. 5 Commissioner Gibson, I am a state 6 representative from McLennon County, you're aware of that? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 MR. MABRY: And you're a county commissioner 9 of McLennon County? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 MR. MABRY: I do not represent you. 12 Mr. Dunnam, at the end other end of the table, represents 13 you. 14 THE WITNESS: I believe my representative 15 falls in yourself. 16 MR. MABRY: I'm glad to know that. I thought 17 that Mr. Dunnam had the pleasure of representing you. 18 THE WITNESS: I have another home in his 19 district. 20 MR. MABRY: In any event, you are familiar 21 with political make-up of McLennon County? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 23 MR. MABRY: You're familiar with my district? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 25 MR. MABRY: You're aware that in my district,

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Page 34 1 roughly 60 percent of the voters voted for Governor Perry? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 MR. MABRY: And approximately 60 percent of 4 the voters in my district voted for ? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 6 MR. MABRY: And approximately 60 percent of 7 the voters in my district voted for Caroline 8 Keeton-Rylander. 9 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 10 MR. MABRY: But a majority of those voters in 11 my district voted for , who is a democrat. 12 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 13 MR. MABRY: And that a majority of those 14 voters in my district voted for me, and I am a democrat. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. The majority of the 16 voters in my district voted for me and I am a democrat. 17 MR. MABRY: But that this proof positive that 18 the people in District 56, which I represent, had choices. 19 They had a choice to vote for republicans and they had a 20 choice to vote for Democrats, and they chose to vote for 21 both Republicans and Democrats. 22 Under the new redistricting plan, they won't 23 have that choice, will they, Mr. Gibson? 24 THE WITNESS: No, sir. Thank you. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The next witness

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Page 35 1 will be Chad Adams. Chad is the County Judge of Ellis 2 County. Chad is here to testify for the redistricting plan. 3 I would make a simple request that neither 4 side cheer -- or I mean, if you want to cheer, that's great. 5 Each person deserves the courtesy that the person before 6 them was extended. I'd appreciate if we could would keep 7 that in mind. Everyone that is going to want to speak today 8 wants that courteously, I intend to treat everyone 9 courteously. 10 CHAD ADAMS 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Chairman 12 My name is Chad Adams, I'm Ellis County judge. I represent 13 just myself as a citizen today in favor of redistricting. 14 I must note that in this last legislative 15 session, in performing the duties in my county, we held onto 16 the crest of the wave as we watched legislation come into 17 the -- into the legislative session that would literally 18 change much of the direction financially for our county. 19 And then at the last moment, it crashed because much of that 20 legislation was unable to be passed because our democratic 21 representatives ran off to . 22 None the lest -- never the lest, it was a 23 brilliant strategy. I want to compliment you on coming out 24 today and getting some public input as to the issue of 25 redistricting.

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Page 36 1 And though Republicans largely fulfilled the 2 mandate given by the people of Texas during the 3 78th legislature, but there were critical issues left 4 unfinished that are important to people of Texas, including 5 congressional redistricting. 6 The current congressional map does not 7 accurately reflect the will of Texas voters and needs some 8 changes. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please give this 10 gentleman the courtesy of giving his speech. 11 THE WITNESS: 50 percent of Texans voted for 12 the GOP congressional candidate in 2002 elections, yet 13 Republicans received just 47 percent of the seats. The only 14 responsible course of action for lawmakers is to take -- is 15 to return to Austin immediately to do their job by passing a 16 fair redistricting plan that represents Texas and voters and 17 their will and their views. 18 Thank you very much. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: There is a 20 question. 21 MR. VERNON: Mr. Adams? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 MR. VERNON: You're county judge of Ellis 24 County? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am.

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Page 37 1 MR. VERNON: Is Ellis County still the 2 primary source of air pollution in the State of Texas? 3 THE WITNESS: Representative. 4 Representative, I do not know how that reflects the 5 redistricting matter today. Explain to me how that affects 6 the redistricting issue today and I would will address that 7 issue. 8 MR. VERNON: Mr. Adams, actually I'm a member 9 of the House and I am asking you the questions. It's so a 10 Republican can recognize the source of her husband's 11 emphysema. 12 Mr. Adams, the question I want to ask you, 13 are you vaguely familiar with the concepts of the founding 14 of this country wherein we talk about one person totally 15 disgusted and dismayed that the only excuse that I have 16 heard from anybody talking about redistricting is that there 17 are more people that voted for Republicans last session in 18 my district. What you are saying to my constituents is that 19 those of you who are under 18 do not matter, those who are 20 not registered to voted do not matter, and those of you who 21 are not eligible to vote or choose not to vote because of 22 the nature of the people do not matter. 23 What you are saying to me when you use that 24 example is that about 85 percent of my constituents do not 25 matter in this country. Is that the case?

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Page 38 1 THE WITNESS: I believe that that is 2 misconstrued. However, in Texas, as a whole -- and I will 3 cite those statistics again -- 56 percent of the Texans 4 voted for the GOP congressional candidate. 5 MR. VERNON: Mr. Adams, the question I am 6 asking you is if you are not a puppet and you stop and think 7 for yourself, do you not realize -- do you not realize that 8 what we are talking about is a census count. People, not 9 voters. People count and my under 18 population -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon, I am 11 very happy to extend to you the courtesy of asking a 12 question of the witness, if you would ask a question of the 13 witness, please. 14 MR. VERNON: Mr. Adams, do you not understand 15 the difference in human beings and people that cast votes? 16 THE WITNESS: I do. 17 MR. VERNON: Then do you not understand that 18 the analogy that is consistently used by the apologists for 19 this attempt to redistrict is that more people voted for 20 Republican candidates last session than voted for Democrats. 21 Do you understand that position? You just expressed it. 22 THE WITNESS: I do. 23 MR. VERNON: All right. Then you don't 24 understand why somebody like who represents a district 25 that's over 70 percent people of color, who represents a

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Page 39 1 district that is highly under age 18, that represents a 2 district that has been consistently been denied access to 3 vote, is very concerned that you would confuse the issue 4 between human beings and people that cast votes in the last 5 election. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't understand your 7 question. 8 MR. VERNON: Judge Adams, the question is 9 very simple: Do you understand the concept of the founding 10 of this country which are based on the premise that all 11 human beings are equal and all human beings are counted in 12 the census process and that all human beings are therefore 13 counted in the redistricting process? 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If I can just hear 15 the members of my panel, that would help. 16 Madam Davis has a question in just a minute. 17 MR. VERNON: Thank you. Very well, Mr. 18 Chairman. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would like to 20 note that this is a courtesy extended the other members of 21 the House, the redistricting panel is here and we would, on 22 the redistricting panel, would like to have some questions 23 we can ask of the House members. 24 Ms. Davis? 25 MS. DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I

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Page 40 1 appreciate the courtesy being extended to us. 2 Judge, I'd like to ask you a questions, 3 because I think this is one thing I think continues to be a 4 question, that there's some mandate for redistricting to be 5 done, and I want to understand where do you think that 6 mandate comes from and how has it been expressed that we 7 would do redistricting at this time rather than when we 8 normally have done it after the census. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you. What I see as the 10 issue here is that when the courts came in to redistrict, 11 redo the redistricting maps, that was a nice stopgap 12 situation we were faced with. However, I think that this 13 process more accurately reflects the citizens of Texas in 14 the process that we go through now, being a positive. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Where does the 16 constitution talk about stopgaps. It's based on population. 17 MR. MABRY: Okay. I'm going to go ahead and 18 take this opportunity, I believe Ms. Davis is finished, and 19 Mr. Chairman indicates he would recognize questions. 20 Judge Adams, I want to address something that 21 you said as soon as you got to the microphone. You said 22 there was legislation that affected your county that was 23 effectively killed because of the trip to Ardmore, you made 24 that statement earlier. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

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Page 41 1 MR. MABRY: You understand that a vast 2 majority of the State House standing committees are 3 comprised of a majority of Republicans, are you aware of 4 that. 5 THE WITNESS: I was not aware of that. 6 MR. MABRY: Are you aware that the calendars 7 committee is chaired by a Republican House member and is 8 comprised of a majority of Republican House members? 9 THE WITNESS: I am aware of that committee, 10 yes. 11 MR. MABRY: And you are aware that the 12 Speaker of the House of Representatives is a Republican? 13 THE WITNESS: I am. 14 MR. MABRY: Based on that, don't you think 15 it's a fair statement to say that any legislation that a 16 Republican would like to get through the system could find 17 its way through prior the time we left for Ardmore, 18 Oklahoma? 19 THE WITNESS: I think that that would 20 probably be a fair assessment; however -- however, the way 21 that the laws are passed in the legislative session down in 22 Austin are actually quite complicated, and there is a lot of 23 political volleying going on. 24 That we, on a local level, who are serving 25 our constituents don't always have the privilege of keeping

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Page 42 1 up with. 2 MR. MABRY: Judge Adams, you are from Ellis 3 County? 4 THE WITNESS: I am. 5 MR. MABRY: Who is your representative? 6 THE WITNESS: Representative Jim Pitt. 7 MR. MABRY: He is a Republican? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 MR. MABRY: Now, the Democrats -- and I was 10 one of them that went to Ardmore, Oklahoma -- you've 11 indicated that that somehow has killed some legislation. 12 You would agree that upon our return from Ardmore, Oklahoma, 13 there would have been a sense of urgency to resume the 14 State's business and get the legislation so vital to your 15 county passed. Do you agree with that statement? 16 THE WITNESS: I could not agree with that 17 totally. 18 MR. VERNON: All right. You do not agree 19 totally with the statement that there should be -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Excuse me, 21 Mr. Mabry. 22 MR. MABRY: Yes. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Courtesy has been 24 extended, if I could ask you to confine your questions to 25 the subject of redistricting, please.

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Page 43 1 THE WITNESS: I believe I did bring up this 2 issue on the front, if he does have that issue to be 3 addressed. I believe that I was the one that opened the 4 door. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Can I invite you 6 two to go out and have a debate about that? 7 MR. MABRY: I will adjourn. I will ask one 8 final question of the witness. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 10 MR. MABRY: Judge Adams, are you aware that 11 upon our return from Ardmore, Oklahoma, where we resumed 12 business in the Texas House, that as you recall, we returned 13 on Friday morning and we said recessed midafternoon on 14 Friday. We did not work at all on Saturday. We did not 15 work at all on Sunday. 16 We recessed at approximately 3:00 o'clock on 17 Monday. We recessed at approximately 2:30 on Tuesday. We 18 recessed approximately 6:00 o'clock on Wednesday. We 19 recessed at approximately 7:00 o'clock on Thursday. That 20 doesn't sound like much of a sense of urgency to get to the 21 State's business, wouldn't you agree? 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, 23 Mr. Mabry. 24 This witness, we have gone past our 25 unofficial time.

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Page 44 1 Mr. Raymond has a question. Mr. Raymond? 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Judge, I just wanted 3 to clean up, first of all, on what Mr. Mabry pointed out, in 4 case you get the sense you are not completely familiar with 5 all of the maturations and the process in Austin. 6 But that all -- when we returned and 7 adjourned early on Friday, didn't work Saturday, Sunday, all 8 of that that the Republican Speaker made that decision to 9 shut it down. You know that, right? 10 THE WITNESS: I am aware of that. However, 11 the deadline set on the bills that -- that as a result of 12 you-all leaving and not -- session not being able to be 13 held, are bills that fell by the wayside pursuant to 14 specifically, I mean, the redistricting bill. I mean, 15 that's the major bill. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me ask you about 17 that, Mr. Chairman. I'll try not to take too long, 18 Mr. Chairman. 19 I will ask a question about your -- you said 20 that you thought we should take up redistricting. I heard 21 two reasons. One, that you didn't agree with the court's -- 22 the federal court's ratifying of the plan, putting it in 23 place two years ago. Is that correct, first of all? 24 THE WITNESS: I believe that that was an 25 adequate stopgap solution to our problem.

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Page 45 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So in other words, 2 you don't agree with the fact that the courts did that and 3 that even though it had been certified by the Supreme Court 4 that made Bush president, that you didn't think -- you 5 didn't think that we should go the whole decade with this 6 plan that was certified by the U S. Supreme Court; is that 7 correct? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay. So on that 10 legal point, then, is it your opinion that anytime the 11 Supreme Court rules something legal, that that should only 12 be good for a couple of years? 13 THE WITNESS: The fact that you would have to 14 evaluate each one of those instances individually. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you just said -- 16 badgering the witness? I don't know how to badger. 17 I want to make sure. Now, I want to make 18 sure I heard you correctly, you said that you think that 19 when the Supreme Court makes a ruling that they should be 20 evaluated each, is that what you said? 21 THE WITNESS: I think whether or not you 22 revisit the issue of redistricting needs to be reevaluated 23 for each district that the Supreme Court would make a 24 decision on. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Man, that didn't

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Page 46 1 make any sense. 2 But anyway -- but let me -- but let me ask 3 you on the second point. 4 I am going to leave that point, Mr. Chairman, 5 I am going to ask him on his second point. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam has a 7 question when you are through. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I will be quickly 9 through. 10 The second point you made is that since 57 of 11 the all of the votes cast for congress in Texas, when you 12 add them all up, votes that were cast for Sessions, and you 13 know, cast for Tom DeLay, and cast for all Chet Edwards and 14 all that stuff, when you add that all up, Democrats and 15 Republicans, that Republicans got 57 percent of the vote, so 16 you feel that is a basis and should be the basis for coming 17 back and redistricting to reflect those returns; is that 18 correct? 19 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So is it your 21 position now that eight years from now -- let's say six 22 years from now, that when you add them all up and the 23 Democrats statewide and all of the Democrats for congress -- 24 because I guarantee you, I am going to work real hard to gin 25 up the vote in South Texas -- so that when you add them all

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Page 47 1 up and the Democrats get 57 percent that we should 2 redistrict again so that it reflects the voters trend, is 3 that what you said? 4 THE WITNESS: In order for me to be 5 consistent, yes. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me tell you 7 something and I will be through with this. Judge, let me 8 just tell you this. And I will be through, Mr. Chairman. 9 Let me tell you something when they quiet down. 10 With this precedent -- if this precedent is 11 set, I can guarantee you something -- if this precedent is 12 set, I can guarantee you that when the Democrats get 52 or 13 53 and/or 54, we will begin redistricting in two or four or 14 six years. 15 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Have you ever been to 16 Bremont, Texas? 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Have you ever been to 18 Ardmore? 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Have you ever been to 21 Hearne, Texas? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Have you ever been to 23 Waxahachie? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Reagan, Texas? Do

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Page 48 1 you know where they are? 2 THE WITNESS: I have never been to any of 3 those three. 4 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: The reason I ask 5 that, if you look at the map over in corner, those are 6 cities in Marlin, in Falls, in Robertson County, Texas. 7 Those are communities that under that map, in rural Texas, 8 will be swamped by Ellis County and Southeast Tarrant 9 Counties after redistricting of the map. Today in Bremont, 10 they are having a pickle parade. I had to send my staff 11 over. 12 One of the problems that I have with this 13 map, I represent part of the McLennan County and four rural 14 counties as well, four total rural counties. And those four 15 rural counties are currently in one congressional district 16 who happens to be represented by , who is a 17 Republican; but under that map up there, those counties 18 fall -- Robertson, Leon and Madison -- are divided into four 19 congressional districts. 20 The people in Robertson and part of Falls 21 County -- Falls County is split -- are going to get swamped 22 by Southwestern -- or Southeastern Fort Worth. The people 23 in Madisonville are going to have their representative come 24 from inner city Houston. The people from Leon County are 25 going to have someone come from Tyler, and the people from

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Page 49 1 the other part of Falls County are going to be run all the 2 way up to West Fort Worth. 3 And it's just interesting to me that the 4 district that you are going to dominate you have never even 5 heard of the towns. 6 Thank you, very much. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The next witness is 8 Mr. Oscar Trevino. Mr. Trevino is the Mayor of the City of 9 North Richland Hills and he is here to testify against the 10 bill. 11 The testimony after that will be given by 12 Mr. Fred -- Representative Mr. Fred Hill. 13 Mr. Hill, are you still here? I'm sorry, Mr. 14 Hill will follow Mr. Trevino. Mr. James Gosey, I apologize 15 if I mispronounced it, I apologize, is the Mayor of Forest 16 Hills. So those will be our next three witnesses. 17 Mr. Mayor. 18 OSCAR TREVINO 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, my name is Oscar 20 Trevino, I'm the mayor of the City of North Richland Hills. 21 We are the third largest city in Tarrant County, 22 representing approximately 60,000 citizens. And I'm here 23 just for a minute just to let you know that the City of 24 North Richland Hills, we are happy with the way the district 25 map is drawn at this point in time.

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Page 50 1 We are not -- I represent about 12 to 2 13 percent minority population. However, our city is 3 represented by one state representative. We know who that 4 is. We know our senator. We know our congressional folks. 5 We feel that the Tarrant county delegation and our city is 6 well-represented with the district lines the way that they 7 are. 8 That's all I want to say. I appreciate the 9 time and the effort that you-all are extending being here 10 listening to this testimony. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We appreciate your 12 testimony. 13 Representative Fred Hill. 14 FRED HILL 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 16 Members of committee, and the other members of the 17 delegation that are here today. I want to welcome you to 18 Dallas. 19 I have been a member of the Texas House of 20 Representatives for 16 years. I represent an area -- I 21 represent an area of North Dallas, Richardson and Garland. 22 I want to tell you that the majority of people in my 23 community are supportive of what you are attempting to do. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Extend to Mr. Hill 25 the same courtesy as the Mayor.

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Page 51 1 THE WITNESS: It's all right, Mr. Chairman. 2 I am member of the legislature. I am used to it. I want to 3 say this, though -- I did say a majority of the people. And 4 that's what this is all about, it's about the majority of 5 the people. 6 When this process was initially set up a long 7 time ago, long before any of us were originally involved in 8 it, it was designed to keep people from being dominated by 9 any one particular party. And it hasn't worked that way in 10 the past. 11 What your job is is to create district that 12 are compact and represent the people of the district of the 13 state. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Court Reporter, 15 can you hear Representative Hill. 16 THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: The only reason that we are 18 here today is because of actions that took place in the last 19 regular-called session of the legislature and because of 20 actions that took place in the 71st or 77th legislature. 21 I have been through a redistricting process 22 in the past and I will have to tell you , I have 23 never seen hearings like the ones that have taken place in 24 the last few weeks. 25 THE WITNESS: I have seen members of the

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Page 52 1 legislature on both sides of this issue discussing with 2 intelligence and with consideration of the people on both 3 sides. We are not going to be intimidated by mob rules. 4 (Audience outburst.) 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You please let 6 Mr. Hill speak. 7 THE WITNESS: We are going to hear the people 8 who have an interest in this issue and let them speak their 9 part. And the decision will be made by elected officials 10 that represent both parties in the legislature. 11 We will -- we will draw the lines, I am 12 certain, after a considerable amount of debate in the 13 legislature and all parties will have their voices heard. 14 I would be happy -- I would be happy to -- I 15 would be happy to yield to questions from any member of the 16 panel or your guests here today. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Are there any 18 questions of Representative Hill? 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf, 21 just a minute. Mr. Raymond? Mr. Grusendorf yields to you, 22 Mr. Raymond. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Fred, good to see 24 you. 25 THE WITNESS: Good to see you, Mr. Raymond.

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Page 53 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I just want to ask 2 one question, I think you were in here and listened to Judge 3 Adams from Ellis County testify? 4 THE WITNESS: Actually, I was the second 5 person in the room this morning. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You heard him? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Did you hear him 9 explain that he felt that we should take up congressional 10 redistricting because when you add up all of the votes cast 11 for Republicans members of Congress in Texas and those for 12 Democrats, the Republican, the got aggregate 56 percent and 13 he felt we should take it up because of that? Did you hear 14 him say that? 15 THE WITNESS: I heard him say. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Were you here when I 17 asked him -- well, first of all, do you agree with that? 18 THE WITNESS: I agree we should be taking up 19 redistricting because it's our obligation under the 20 constitution. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Since you mention 22 that, then I will just ask you this, Mr. Chairman. 23 You know that the opinion that was issued by 24 the -- that was issued by Attorney General Abbott, in fact, 25 stated that the constitution does not demand that the Texas

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Page 54 1 Legislature take up or do congressional redistricting. He 2 said, we can do it, we have the right to do it; but the 3 constitution certainly does not say that we must do it. You 4 are aware of that? 5 THE WITNESS: The legislature take this issue 6 up representing the people of Texas. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I just wanted to 8 clarify, you said our duty under the constitution. The 9 constitution does not say it's our duty. 10 THE WITNESS: It's says it's our right. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Says we can. 12 Doesn't say we must. 13 But what I wanted to ask is, do you agree on 14 what Judge Adams said on 56 percent deal? 15 THE WITNESS: I believe it's far bigger than 16 that. I believe the whole issue far greater and just 17 designing by particular voting records in particular races. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So I am not trying 19 to play games with you. You and I are good friends. I am 20 just asking you, do you agree with this point that it should 21 be taken up because of that? 22 THE WITNESS: I believe it should be taken up 23 because it's a far grater issue than can be defined by a 24 percentage point related to specific races. 25 I believe that the people of Texas have

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Page 55 1 spoken over the last decade in terms of the elections that 2 have taken place in this state, and this is what this is 3 about. It's not about politics. It's not political. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you allow 5 Mr. Hill to answer the questions that -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The hearings -- 7 THE WITNESS: These people are just -- these 8 people are actually treating me kindly compared to you. 9 I have been treated by some people in the 10 legislative process -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, I was going to 12 ask you whether you essentially agreed with Mr. Adams that 13 four, six years from now, if 56 percent of aggregate vote is 14 for a Democratic candidate for Congress whether we should, 15 in fact, redo the district again. He said to be consistent, 16 we should. I was just going to ask you, do you agree with 17 his assessment? 18 THE WITNESS: Speaking -- Mr. Adams was 19 speaking his own opinion. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am asking for you 21 opinion. 22 THE WITNESS: I think we should abide by the 23 constitution. And the constitution doesn't require that. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: My point exactly. 25 My point exactly, the constitution does not require that in

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Page 56 1 four or six years if the Democrats get 56 percent of the 2 vote we redistrict again. And the constitution does not 3 require that in the aggregate Republicans get 56 we do it 4 now. 5 THE WITNESS: Because if the constitution did 6 require that, we would have redistricted a long time ago. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That's exactly 8 right; and because it doesn't, we shouldn't be doing it now. 9 THE WITNESS: We would have redistricted. We 10 would actually have redistricted in the middle of last 11 decade if we were going to do it properly. 12 But we weren't able to do it properly the 13 last successful legislature, so we are here trying to do it 14 now. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You we did do it 16 properly, we did it in accordance -- but let me ask you 17 this: Do you feel that Governor Perry should have called a 18 special session two years ago instead of taking it to the 19 courts? 20 THE WITNESS: No, I think this is fine. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let's -- for the 22 court reporter here, let the record reflect that I want to 23 make sure I heard him right that he does not think that 24 Governor Perry should have called a special session two 25 years ago to do redistricting then, so that we would not

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Page 57 1 have had to have been here now. 2 Thank you, Mr. Hill. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Hill, if there 4 are any more questions. 5 Mr. Isett? 6 THE WITNESS: I would simply say this, 7 Mr. Raymond. We could have gone -- of gotten this done 8 during the regular session. You know that. 9 Mr. Isett? 10 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Chairman Hill, I just 11 want to clarify some of the points you made. Article I -- 12 and I am also using the letter from Greg Abbott just as 13 Mr. Raymond did to relate to some of my questions. 14 Article I, section four of the constitution 15 says that the times, places and manners of holding elections 16 for senators and representatives shall be prescribed in each 17 state by the legislature thereof. And that is foundation 18 for some of your comments. 19 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: And in the Texas 21 constitution, Article III, section one, provides the's 22 legislative power of the state shall be vested inside the 23 Senate and House of Representatives, which together will 24 decide. 25 So both your comments are founded on a notion

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Page 58 1 and premise that the both the United States Constitution and 2 the Texas constitution prescribe the manner in which the 3 delegates are apportioned among the states -- 4 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 5 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: -- and inside the 6 states. That the current lines were drawn by a federal 7 court does it in any way alleviate the responsibility of the 8 legislature, in your opinion, to draw lines? 9 THE WITNESS: Not at all. 10 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So then, what I 11 understand, then, is that once the legislature has acted, 12 the legislature would then have fulfilled its constitutional 13 obligation to draw lines and the remedial lines, those that 14 were drawn by the courts, would then no longer be valid? 15 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 16 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you, sir. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. Thank you 18 all of you for being heard today. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf 20 would like to ask a question. 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Hill, to 22 follow-up on that question. 23 THE WITNESS: Your microphone may not be on. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: To follow-up on 25 the constitutional response. I was looking through the

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Page 59 1 documents of what's happened in the past. There has been a 2 lot of talk about whether or not we do redistricting every 3 ten years. 4 I was wondering if you are aware that in 1965 5 the legislature passed House Bill 67 dealing with 6 redistricting and congressional redistricting; and then 7 again in 1967, the House passed Senate Bill 335. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Were you aware of 9 what political party may have been in control then? The 10 court will talk about this precedenting. I call this to 11 your attention. 12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Grusendorf, it's 13 politically expedient to call these unprecedented if you are 14 not in power. Those times that you mention, those three 15 bills that were passed regarding redistricting occurred 16 prior to the Republicans gaining the majority in the House 17 of Representatives or the Senate of the State of Texas, so 18 obviously they occurred when the Democrats were in power and 19 they exercised their power at that time to make those 20 changes to redistricting. 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: And in 19 -- 22 (Audience outburst.) 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Those of you that 24 are giving your testimony, kind of extemporaneously, I hope 25 that you have signed up so that when it's your opportunity

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Page 60 1 to give your testimony, we will be able to hear that on the 2 record. Extemporaneously are not able to go into the court 3 record because we don't three of them and we would like to 4 have all of those comments at the microphone so they can be 5 duly recorded. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: So the question 7 about unprecedent nature of this, I wanted to also call to 8 your attention that in 1975 the legislature passed House 9 Bill 1065 dealing with congressional redistricting. That 10 again was not at the beginning of the decade. 11 And then in 1981, Senate Bill 1 dealing with 12 congressional redistricting; and came back in 1983 and again 13 passed Senate Bill 48 dealing with congressional 14 redistricting. 15 I want to set the record straight, this is 16 not unprecedented for the legislature the deal with 17 redistricting in years other than the years immediately 18 after the census. 19 But also, I wanted to ask you, Mr. Hill, I 20 know you have been a pretty independent voice in the 21 legislature, you said for 16 years. You said your 22 constituents supported dealing -- they want the legislature 23 to deal with the redistricting? 24 THE WITNESS: I said the majority of my 25 constituents did.

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Page 61 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I am looking at 2 some handouts. I don't know if you have seen these handouts 3 today. 4 THE WITNESS: No. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Do you consider 6 yourself to be a puppet? 7 THE WITNESS: You know, I bet you if you were 8 to pose that question to your colleagues there, there isn't 9 one of them there that would say I am a puppet. 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I think you are 11 pretty independent-minded, Mr. Hill. 12 On behalf of those of you us on this 13 committee, as puppets, I just wonder about that. Is it just 14 sort of take issue with that somebody -- you don't do what 15 somebody else does, if we worked to support this matter, 16 would be puppets of Mr. Frost or someone else? That could 17 go full session. 18 THE WITNESS: Puppet matters. 19 Mr. Grusendorf, you have been in the 20 political arena a long time and you have seen all types of 21 situations develop. You have probably had people call you 22 all kinds of things. Perhaps even puppet is one of the 23 nicer things. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: That's probably 25 true.

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Page 62 1 THE WITNESS: I would just urge to ignore 2 that and do your job. 3 Thank you very much, once again, and welcome 4 to Dallas. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Congresswoman 6 Johnson is here, would like the testify. County 7 Commissioner Price is here, would like to testify. We have 8 a whole stack of elected officials. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Just a point of 10 clarification. Just a point of clarification because I 11 think Mr. Hill would want to know this, that every one of 12 the cases that the legislation where the action is taken on 13 redistricting prior to now in Texas that was in the middle 14 of the decade, every single one of them were so ordered by 15 court, order by federal courts. It is not the same today. 16 I just wanted to make that point. 17 I may not have understood Mr. Chairman or 18 Chairman Hill, that it may not make a difference in your 19 opinion, but for the record, I just wanted the record to be 20 set straight that every one of those cases Mr. Grusendorf 21 pointed to were ordered by federal courts; and this, of 22 course, is not because this has been certified as 23 constitutional and in compliance with the Voting Rights Act. 24 What we have today is very, very different 25 than what Mr. Grusendorf represented.

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Page 63 1 THE WITNESS: Mr. Raymond, your point is 2 noted; but it also is consistent with the fact that the 3 legislature has the right to deal with redistricting issues 4 not just every ten years but when the issue is pertinent to 5 the time. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I agree with you, 7 but you don't -- I will just say this and I will let you go. 8 The history of our country, the greatest country in the 9 world, is not always great. It took a long time for a lot 10 of people in this country to get the same rights as others 11 in this country. 12 The difference -- you are exactly right, you 13 are exactly right that you can take it up, but you can't 14 take it up and do it without following the Voting Rights 15 Act, without respecting the rights of others, and you can't 16 do it if you are going to take away the rights that we 17 fought very, very hard to get. 18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Raymond -- Mr. Raymond, I 19 want to say that it's disingenuous for you to imply that 20 this process is going to take away the voting rights of 21 anyone in the State of Texas. It's disingenuous for you to 22 imply that this process is not being done appropriately. 23 You know that. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, let me 25 respond to that.

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Page 64 1 I believe you would never have done what the 2 chairman of this full committee -- not Mr. Marchant, but the 3 chairman of this full committee did when I asked repeatedly 4 for us to have hearings around the state as has been done 5 for 30 years, and I was repeatedly denied. I made a formal 6 motion and this committee voted it down. 7 I made a formal motion on the floor of the 8 House and not a single Republican voted for it. Everyone 9 voted against it; but the chairman of this committee, Joe -- 10 Mr. Joe Crabb said the reason we wouldn't have them in South 11 Texas, as in his words, he said, it's a non-English speaking 12 area of the state. 13 And I tell you what, Fred, you can't 14 discriminate against -- my grandmother was born and raised 15 her whole life, born in South Texas and lived there 84 16 years, she did not speak English. 17 It's not right for Joe Crabb, the chairman of 18 this committee, who is heading this thing up, to 19 systematically discriminate as he did, and two days ago in 20 Brownsville, when a Hispanic mand stood in front of him and 21 disagreed with him, he said, sir, what is your name and 22 Social Security number? 23 You are right about this. I know you, Fred, 24 Mr. Chairman Hill. You would never do that. I know that. 25 But don't tell me that I am supposed to sit

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Page 65 1 here quietly and pretend that Joe Crabb didn't tell me we 2 wouldn't go to South Texas because nobody speaks English. 3 And then when he did, he insults Hispanic veterans who 4 fought for this country by asking for their Social Security 5 number. 6 (Audience outburst.) 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would like 8 Mr. Hill to respond, and then I would like to call the next 9 witness. I would like Mr. Hill to respond and then we are 10 going to call the next witness. 11 Mr. Hill, you may respond, please. 12 First off, we have some seats here that are 13 available. I see 20 or 30 of them. Anyone that needs a 14 seat that is on the outside, we have seats available. If 15 you would have a seat, Mr. Hill. 16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Raymond, your comments are 17 very emotional. And I certainly would not support that type 18 of statement. I will say that again: I will not support 19 that type of statement. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I know that. 21 THE WITNESS: But I want you to understand 22 and the people here to understand that this process is not 23 about one individual. This process will be about the entire 24 legislative process. And it's about the entire legislative 25 process, as you well know; and you will have your

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Page 66 1 opportunity to speak and anyone else also will on floor of 2 the House also. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, the 4 people of my district will not get a chance to speak before 5 this committee. 6 THE WITNESS: You will speak for them. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I will speak for 8 them. 9 Let me also tell you, as a member of the 10 committee, when I asked to be recognized by Chairman Crabb 11 for a parlimentary inquiry, people who have been around the 12 Capitol for 25 or 30 years happened that they had never seen 13 when I said, Mr. Chairman Crabb, may I be recognized for a 14 parlimentary inquiry, he said, no. 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Raymond, as I said before, 16 this is not about one individual. We will all have a voice 17 in this process. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 19 testimony, sir. 20 At this time, the Chair recognizes Robert 21 Seaward. I'm sorry, Mr. Johnson recognizes -- yes, ma'am, 22 she has asked and she will be very soon. James? 23 Mr. Gosey, Mayor of North Richland Hills is 24 here to testify against. 25 THE WITNESS: I would like to say thank you

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Page 67 1 for the opportunity. I want to make a quick confession, I 2 felt belittled or real small before coming to this thing, 3 but after hearing some of the testimony, I have been 4 empowered. I definitely want to fight with you, Mr. Richard 5 Raymond, make sure that our people get down to vote and make 6 them realize that our vote makes a difference, because I 7 have realized here that some of our officials that we have 8 put on such high pedestals are so uninformed. 9 I won't be long. I am here to express 10 comments against this redistricting effort. I, too -- 11 actually, right now I am called up on active duty for the 12 United States Armed Forces. Been under the stress of 13 dealing with a wartime situation, and then we hear about 14 this redistricting effort. 15 We are sending soldiers off to fight for 16 someone else's freedom across the big pond and we have got 17 some people in the United States government that want to 18 take away way opportunities for minorities here in America. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett would 20 like to ask a question ask. 21 Mayor, after you make your comments, 22 Mr. Isett would like to ask you some questions. 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: My question pertains 24 to his comments thus far. 25 THE WITNESS: Sir, with due respect, I will

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Page 68 1 not answer any questions. I have learned from the two 2 gentlemen, earlier -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett has some 4 comments about your Armed services. Go ahead. 5 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Let me introduce 6 myself as Lieutenant Carl Isett of the United States Navy. 7 Are you speaking on behalf of yourself or on 8 behalf of the United States military? 9 THE WITNESS: Sir, with all due respect, I 10 will finish the comments that I have prepared. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mayor, go ahead. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 13 Like I said, Forest Hills is a predominantly 14 minority community. We are about 65 percent black and 15 Hispanic. In our district, we respect the fact that the 16 minorities in Forest Hills have a big part in choosing who 17 our state representative is and who our U.S Congressman is. 18 We are glad to have Martin Frost as our 19 Congressman. We are very much aware that in some circles, 20 that race is not an issue, they want us to believe; but in 21 Forest Hills, we are 65 percent minority. 22 Martin Frost is our representative, who is 23 Anglo and we are very proud of that. But if this 24 redistricting effort becomes a reality, we currently have 25 two minority opportunity districts in North Texas that are

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Page 69 1 protected by the United States Constitution. If this effort 2 is successful, Martin Frost, District 24, will be done away 3 with. 4 We definitely do not want that to happen. We 5 like the way the lines are drawn now. We like them just the 6 way they are. And it's my recommendation that you keep them 7 that way. 8 That's all I have to say. Thank you, very 9 much. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett? 11 THE WITNESS: I have the right to refuse to 12 respond to this. 13 Go ahead. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: As someone who sits 15 and lives under the Uniform Military Code of Justice, as do 16 you, I think it's important in our public capacity we 17 understand -- and my question to you was, are you speaking 18 in your capacity as Mayor or as an individual citizen or a 19 representation of the U S. military? 20 THE WITNESS: I was introduced as the Mayor 21 of Forest Hills. 22 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: My point is that, for 23 the record, I want you to tell us that you are not -- when 24 you said that you were currently on active duty with the 25 United States military that you were not speaking -- it's a

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Page 70 1 question I want to make sure I try to understand. I am 2 trying the help you. 3 THE WITNESS: For the record, I am not 4 speaking on behalf of the United States Army. Thank you. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mayor, would you 6 like to answer some questions from Mr. Vernon? It's your 7 choice. 8 MR. VERNON: Thank you very much, Mayor, for 9 the opportunity to ask you some questions. 10 We clarified in the line of questioning that 11 you are the Mayor of Forest Hills, you are speaking for the 12 people of Forest Hills, right? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MR. VERNON: And can you tell us how many 15 people are in Forest Hills censuswise? 16 THE WITNESS: Forest Hills has a population 17 of approximately 15,000 people. 18 MR. VERNON: Okay. Every 15,000 people, 19 aren't we all aware that about half of them are under the 20 age ever 18, about half of them are ineligible to vote for 21 one reason or other? 22 THE WITNESS: I cannot agee with that. We 23 have got, like I said, 65 percent minority voters. Our city 24 is no different from any other city. The voter turnout was 25 real low this last election.

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Page 71 1 MR. VERNON: Mayor, that's really my point. 2 The point is, in this process, we can't count all of the 3 residents in your community, not just the people that have 4 voted. 5 THE WITNESS: That's right. 6 MR. VERNON: In this process, in this nation, 7 it has never been perfect, but we have had a 200-year 8 struggle to get to the point where we are trying to treat 9 all people equal under the law; is that right? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I do agree. 11 MR. VERNON: Did you have the opportunity to 12 see the public television program -- there was a 13 three-evening series on the Civil Rights movement. Did you 14 get a chance to see that? 15 THE WITNESS: I did not get a chance to see 16 that. 17 MR. VERNON: The last showing made it very 18 clear that the Civil Rights movement was not over in the 19 1960's. Civil Rights movement is very much here today. 20 I want to thank you for taking the time to 21 come down and testify. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The next testimony 23 will be given by Robert Seeward. Robert is a TXU Energy 24 trustee, Mesquite ISD, he is testifying for it. After that, 25 we will have Congresslady Eddie Bernice Johnson's testimony,

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Page 72 1 she will be testifying next. After that, Mr. John Wiley 2 Price will be testifying. And after that, Mr. Ron Brown. 3 So if you will come in that order. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, while 5 the witness is coming down, is it your intention to call DPS 6 to this hearing today, the Department of Public Safety 7 troopers? 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We left the 9 security of this facility up to UT Southwestern staff. We 10 were assured it would be adequate. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I want to state from 12 the record, I got a note from one of my folks back home in 13 Laredo where Chairman Crabb refused to have a hearing, the 14 State Senate is having a hearing today at the University 15 there, they have three lawyers there sitting with them, they 16 four DPS officers and have they have several university 17 police dispersed throughout the hall and at every entrance, 18 and when I got asked do this, am I being treated 19 differently? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is Mr. Seeward 21 here? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Seeward had to 23 leave, he had a wedding to attend. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: He will be shown 25 for the bill and did not testify.

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Page 73 1 At this time, the Chair will recognize 2 Congresswoman Johnson. 3 Congresswoman, we are glad to have you. My 4 apologies to you, I didn't see you. 5 EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 7 Mr. Chairman, and other members of the House 8 that are present. Mr. Hill, it's great to see you. 9 I speak today as the elected representative 10 of the 36th Congressional District, basically Dallas, Texas, 11 in opposition to this partisan attempt to redistrict the 12 state. I think it's unnecessary. I think it's 13 unprecedented. I think it's costly when we have a big 14 deficit. 15 Subsequently, the proposed House 16 redistricting plan is unconstitutional because it violates 17 the Voting Rights Act resulting in retrogression in the 18 30th Congressional District. 19 I believe in a two-party state, but I also 20 believe in basic justice and fairness. When you pack one 21 district and take away and disenfranchise the rest of the 22 minorities, that's against the Voting Rights Act. 23 Even this week the Supreme Court ruled on a 24 case reinforcing that districts can and must be 25 drawn to show the influence of minorities wherever possible.

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Page 74 1 In the proposed map, the influence of 2 minorities is being grossly reduced. In the district in 3 Waco, Texas -- just happens to be the place where I have 4 spoken, and I go to Waco and ask people to come out and vote 5 for him. 6 And if the minority community did not vote, 7 his district would elect a Republican. And all the 8 districts that are over the number of Republican 9 congressional districts, if you look at the analysis, it is 10 minorities that make the difference in which way that area 11 goes. 12 When you change them, you reduce the 13 influence of the minority vote. That is a direct violation 14 of the Voting Rights Act. 15 Now, it is true that I chaired congressional 16 redistricting in 1991, '92, and I made no effort to do away 17 with a single Republican district. 18 I talked with everyone. What I did make an 19 effort to do is follow what the court had asked to do ten 20 years earlier; and that is, to put a district here where 21 African-Americans could elect a person of their choice. 22 And I did it cooperating with all of the 23 people who were incumbents, because I think incumbency is 24 important. I don't see this effort as a same kind of effort 25 to be inclusive.

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Page 75 1 Demographics have changed even since the time 2 I chaired, where the minority population has gone up 3 substantially; but yet there is no effort to make sure that 4 they have representation in the state. 5 This state is a majority minority state now. 6 And all over this country, if you look at the voting 7 patterns of minorities, they do not vote Republican. 8 And there is a reason. There is a reason why 9 they don't vote for Republicans. It's not that they don't 10 like the people, they don't like the policies of the party. 11 The map we have now has been affirmed by the 12 same Supreme Court that is there now. Well, it's a little 13 different. But -- no, it is the same. I am thinking about 14 ten years. It is the same court that ruled this week. 15 And I don't know that there has been an 16 effort to change a complete state's map in history where the 17 court has not been involved. This is so unprecedented, and 18 so it's unbecoming to (inaudible). This hearing process is 19 flawed. 20 Now, if you wonder why the people are acting 21 as they are, it's because they are unhappy. And people act 22 up when he are unhappy. They know this is unfair; and you 23 know it's unfair. 24 I know that you are (inaudible), and I know 25 that it's from my good friend Tom DeLay, and we are friends.

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Page 76 1 We don't agree on a whole lot but we are friends, but we 2 work together for Texas. We are friends, and I don't deny 3 that. I don't have to cover my back Tom DeLay is a good 4 friend of mine. We are Texans and we work together as 5 Texans. 6 I have a lot of friends I don't agree with 7 all the time. I am a friend to the President and we don't 8 agree on a lot, but we talk. I keep telling him, if he 9 would listen to me, he would be a better President, but he 10 wouldn't. 11 I represent a district that has been labeled 12 the most diverse district in the country. There are 92 13 languages. And let me tell you, I've learned a lot; I 14 respect and love the people; and I represent the majority 15 view of the district. 16 There are people in district that a disagree 17 with me a lot on various things, but when I cast my vote, I 18 am confident that I am representing the majority. 19 Now, 12 years ago, or after the census of 20 1990, the 24th District was set up to be a Hispanic 21 district. The same thing happened this last time. Now, the 22 growth is there. The citizenship and the age is a little 23 short; but if you destroy that district, you destroy the 24 future dreams of both African-Americans and Hispanic voters. 25 In a state where the majority population is

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Page 77 1 minority, we shouldn't be experiencing the threat of 2 retrogression in representation. 3 The district I represent was a district where 4 the voters were denied from all of history of this state of 5 having someone that they wanted to represent that they could 6 identify with to Congress. And this map you have does not 7 take that away, but it takes away the soul and meaning of 8 the district because you take away another minority voice. 9 When you take Chet Edwards away, you take 10 away representation that is influenced by minorities. 11 And many are saying that we get an extra 12 district in Houston. Let me assure you, that when we vote 13 in Washington, they don't have the color of the person, or 14 the sex or gender or any of that. It's red and green. And 15 green counts yes and red counts no. 16 And if you take away four or five or six 17 districts and add one, when you add it up, we have lost. We 18 have lost. 19 We understand clearly that we want to 20 represent ourselves as minorities, but we also understand 21 that often it is not the state of being, it's a state of 22 mind. And we want to have people in place, as covered by 23 the constitution, that will represent us in the state of the 24 spirit of it. 25 You can check any voting record that has been

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Page 78 1 judged by LULAC or NAACP, you look at Republican voters and 2 they score zeros and not over 17, 18 percent. And if you 3 want the record, I have it here, I can share it with me. 4 But when you score it using Democrats, the 5 scoring is a whole lot different. That's what we are 6 concerned about. That's what we are concerned about. 7 And you know what, I understand what you are 8 saying, because for years most of my life I have wanted to 9 have a voice. But not at the expense of any other voice. 10 It is possible for me to have a voice and you 11 have a voice too. You want to take our voices at our 12 expense. That's what's wrong with this plan. 13 I want to close by saying, I want to thank 14 those voices for standing up; and you know what, I listen to 15 voices that speak the other side as well because I need to 16 learn both sides or every side of an issue. 17 But there has not been a word spoken here 18 this morning that justifies changing this map. This only 19 partisan -- it is a partisan part of it and we had a map -- 20 we had a challenge to the first challenge to the Supreme 21 Court of the maps in 1990, '91, '92. It was a partisan 22 challenge and it was thrown out by the Supreme Court because 23 it had no standing. You don't draw maps by partisan. You 24 draw maps by communities of interest, by the guidelines of 25 Voting Rights Act, and let the people choose their

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Page 79 1 representatives instead of representatives choosing the 2 people. 3 I want take specially thank those members who 4 broke the forum to defy the constitutional process. 5 This is serious now. We are talking about 6 the life and well-being of the people and the policies of 7 the state. This is no fly-by-night. This is no simple as 8 us saying we are going to get us some more Republican seats. 9 It is whether we have a quality of life in 10 this state. If you check the voting rights -- if you check 11 the voting records, we wouldn't have a quality of life in 12 this state if we went on with Republicans. We would not -- 13 all you have is a lot of talk and you would still have 14 government controlled by the corporations. 15 We want a government that will be sensitive 16 to the needs of all of the people. We have a state with 17 some of the poorest children in the country, but we can't 18 get them attention when the Republicans are in majority, 19 because they haven't seen what we go through. If they have, 20 they ignore it. And I am not trying the condemn all of 21 you -- I believe in a two-party state. 22 And if the Republicans address the policies I 23 am in, I would join it; but they don't. They don't address 24 the voices of the needs of the people of this state and 25 that's why we are here. That's why it's serious. It's life

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Page 80 1 and death to us. 2 You want some more votes, let the 3 corporations do away with government, do away with job 4 protection, but we want some basic human rights. We want 5 running water, we want health care, we want quality 6 education for all of the children, and we cannot get it with 7 Republican dominance. And that has been proven by our 8 history. It's proven every day in Washington. 9 We were in session to 3:00 a.m. in the 10 morning holding a vote to destroy . There is not a 11 person here who does not support Medicare. 12 We want a government of, by and for the 13 people. I simply plead with you, be American. Be American. 14 Represent the people. 15 I thank you and I will answer any questions 16 you might have. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you very much 18 for your testimony. I want to thank you very much for your 19 testimony. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you for 21 hearing me. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: If I could ask a 25 couple of questions.

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Page 81 1 Congresswoman, thank you for being here. You 2 would agree with me, then, that opening up this process 3 would lead to, in this area, Congressional District 30 and 4 Congressional District 24, which are both minority 5 opportunity districts today, that opening up this process, 6 given the clue that they've given us by that map right 7 there, that these CD 24 and CD 30 would be split up and you 8 could very well no longer have those two minority 9 opportunity districts; is that right? 10 THE WITNESS: That is correct. And you know, 11 if you look at the new 30, ever single bit of commercial 12 property has been removed. I've been in this seat now 11 13 years, and I have represented downtown Dallas, Las Colinas, 14 Irving, some of DeSoto, Lancaster. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And we're not happy. 16 THE WITNESS: And you are not a minority. 17 I have been responsive. I have been 18 responsive to every piece of mail. I do casework for every 19 other elected congressperson in this area, and be responsive 20 to the people. I visit with businesses and I go with them 21 as far as I can, as far as I think is fair, because I 22 believe in having healthy businesses. 23 Now, I am not going to vote any vote that 24 takes the rights of people away: That destroys their right 25 on a job; that destroys labor unions that brought them out

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Page 82 1 of the middle class in this country. And I will say that 2 anywhere, if you take my record, you will see that is true. 3 I am not ashamed of my voting record. I am 4 not ashamed of my representation. I am in touch with the 5 people. 6 (Banging on the microphone.) 7 THE WITNESS: I think the mike might not be 8 interested in hearing me, but, you know, I specialize in all 9 technology in Washington. I know if you keep talking it 10 will come back. 11 Let me say that I have no prejudice in my 12 heart. I believe in representing a majority because I 13 believe in a democracy. As much as I've said most of the 14 time now for the last eight years with how the votes are 15 cast in House, I appreciate being able to cast mine. And 16 accept the majority of the will of the people. And what you 17 are doing now is not the will of the people. 18 If you look all over this state, some of the 19 most conservative newspapers have written editorials against 20 this illegal process. Including the Dallas Morning News. 21 And I have been told by members of the 22 congressional district -- congressional delegation of Texas 23 that our Republicans, that they don't want it. I've been 24 told by some Republicans in Texas that they don't want it. 25 But they got to follow the leader. That's the way it is in

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Page 83 1 Washington sometimes too. I sometimes say I never seen so 2 many white men cry when they started pressuring them which 3 way to vote up there. 4 But I plead with you to think fairness, 5 because let me say this, I have lived with a lot of 6 unfairness and I am not bitter. But don't fear when we are 7 in a majority, we are not going to treat you like you 8 treated us. We will be as fair then as we are now. We will 9 still have some issues that we disagree with, but that's 10 what a democracy is all about. 11 I went to Bagdad because I was asked to as a 12 leader in the House in the first week in May. And when I 13 saw those kids that is a part of the military, who are 14 majority minority, I knew that I should continue to stand 15 for their rights in this country. There is so many reasons 16 why we should not be wasting this time. So very many -- 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Go back to the nursing 18 home. 19 THE WITNESS: I hope there will be a good 20 nursing home with Medicare when I get ready for it. With 21 the Republicans, there won't be Medicare/medicaid, either 22 one, when I get ready for one. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Representative 24 Raymond has a question. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I wanted to ask you,

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Page 84 1 this map that is before us that Representative King 2 introduced, that was not drawn by him but was drawn by 3 Mr. Ellis who works for Mr. DeLay, but Mr. King who is a 4 representative from Weatherford, Republican Phil King, 5 introduced this map in five months. Five months of regular 6 legislative session. We had two days of hearings in Austin; 7 one began at 9:00 p.m. on Friday, May the 2nd, the next one 8 10:00 in the morning until midnight on election day. After 9 those two days of hearings, mainly from people in Austin 10 because they were the ones who could go and they were 11 absolutely opposed to redistricting being brought up again, 12 then a couple of days later, on Tuesday, that Tuesday, at 13 9:00 p.m. this map appears. Well, of course a few people 14 had seen -- 15 THE WITNESS: That's another reason why it's 16 illegal. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, I know, but 18 this map appeared, and two hours later was voted out by this 19 committee and I voted against it. But as I asked Mr. King 20 about this map, tried to look at the imperfections and tried 21 to point out those imperfections -- and I mentioned a couple 22 of them, and as I looked at it, I said, wait a minute -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, could 24 you address your questions to Congresswoman Johnson? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: My question is -- my

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Page 85 1 question is that when she was in Bagdad, was she aware with 2 what I am about to say? 3 THE WITNESS: I was gone that weekend. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: As I pointed out the 5 imperfections, I asked Mr. King, about those imperfections 6 and he looked at me on the record and said, Mr. Raymond, I 7 am limited by the Voting Rights Act, he said. And to be 8 very honest with you, we are going to have to make some 9 changes to the Voting Rights Act, in my opinion. And then 10 it was like . I realized the rest of the story. 11 Mr. King knew something that I didn't know. 12 Mr. King knew something I didn't know. The Voting Rights 13 Act expires in three years. And so I said, now I understand 14 the urgency to get five or six or seven more Republicans, 15 because, with all due respect, even if Mr. Marchant is 16 elected to the Congress in two years or three, even after he 17 redraws the maps -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, direct 19 your question, please, is a question. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: My question is, it 21 seems to me, now I get it and I want to see if you agree 22 with what I get: And that is, in three years when the 23 Voting Rights Act comes up for reauthorization, when I hear 24 friends of mine, they are Republicans but they are my 25 friends too, although we disagree, carrying this map, say to

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Page 86 1 me on the record, we have got to make changes to the Voting 2 Rights Act and the good folks for the chairman, a light went 3 off in my head, now I understand why they want five or six 4 more Republican votes, because no matter how much that may 5 be my friend, I said, Mr. Chairman, that my question is 6 whether or not she agrees with my conclusion; and my 7 conclusion is that the reason you want five or seven more 8 Republicans is so that you can gut the Voting Rights Act. 9 Do you agree with that? 10 THE WITNESS: I agree totally. I agree 11 that -- well, I agree with you and I agree that most of the 12 policies that you are seeing now being proposed and some of 13 them are successful is a part of a grand plan. It all leads 14 toward the same direction. And if we don't start to vote 15 more, the country will not be the one that we have dreamed 16 it to be. 17 We have committed ourselves to making sure 18 that every child in Bagdad get a decent education, that 19 every child has access to health care; there is no 20 commitment in this country for that. 21 The policies of this Administration do not 22 support that. We have heard all this stuff about leave no 23 child behind. Every child, their parents, grandparents will 24 be left behind unless they are rich. And in so saying, 25 because poor people in the this country get poorer as rich

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Page 87 1 get richer. We are not going anywhere. We will be right 2 here. It's hard to impeach somebody who has never been 3 elected. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Miss Johnson, 5 answer the question, please. 6 Mr. Isett? 7 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Chairman, I think 8 I just wish to ask a point of information when the witness 9 has concluded her testimony. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are ready for 11 you to conclude your testimony. 12 THE WITNESS: I am ready to conclude. If you 13 don't have if I questions, thank you, very much. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett? 15 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Chairman, with 16 regard to the Voting Rights Act, there are -- any plan and 17 this is an early part of the process, this a proposed map, 18 but any final map, will it have to go through the federal 19 process and be affirmed that it meets the standard of the 20 Voting Rights Act as it now is? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am not advised of 22 the answer of that question by any of the members. My 23 understanding is, any changes in the plan would have to be 24 made and submitted to the Department of Justice for 25 preclearance.

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Page 88 1 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So that will be after 2 it passes the legislative process, then it would be 3 submitted to the federal court, it would not be able to take 4 or have the course of law until it is approved by justice -- 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Anything passed by 6 legislature would go to the Justice Department under Section 7 V of the Voting Rights Act, precleared by the Justice 8 Department. 9 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: And any questions of 10 retrogression -- so the court -- federal justice department 11 would affirm that the map did not violate the Voting Rights 12 Act before it would have the enforcement of law? 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: My understanding is 14 the law, any bill passed by the legislature and signed by 15 Governor has to be submitted to the Justice Department for 16 preclearance. 17 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The next witness, 19 as announced before, the next speaker, John Wiley Price. If 20 I could read the next five or six witnesses, so they can 21 make their way down towards the front. Ron Brown of Red 22 Oak; after that will be Mayor Pro Tem Ralph McCloud; after 23 that Nate Crain; and after that Susan Hayes. 24 JOHN WILEY PRICE. 25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, members of this

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Page 89 1 committee, those representatives who have also joined, and 2 to my representative, Roberto Alonzo, and the Fabulous Five 3 from Dallas minus one, I come today to testify against CS 4 House Bill 3398, a proposed congressional redistricting 5 plan. 6 I am not so sure if is the patriotic act one 7 or patriotic act two, but I am sure that it is tantamount to 8 domestic terrorism. The road map to peace is justice, and 9 Dr. King said for so many years that this country has told 10 us to wait and he said, wait usually means never. 11 But today I hear this committee saying maybe 12 not wait, but to do a subterfuge and say "DeLay". 13 Mr. Chairman -- Mr. Chairman, I am the 14 president of the Texas Organization of Black County 15 Commissioners. I am here today in my capacity not only as 16 president of that organization but in a state which is the 17 third most African-American populated state in the Union. 18 26 states with over 1 million African-American population. 19 I happen to represent a district that is within the 60-mile 20 radius of the Dallas/Fort Worth airport, which is the 21 fastest growing area in this country. 22 The effort to with redraw the current 23 congressional district lines is unprecedented, unnecessary 24 and poses a dangerous threat to the voting strength and 25 legal rights of minority voters throughout this state.

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Page 90 1 I must understand that like a lot of my 2 colleagues and other elected officials, I am a veteran of at 3 least the last 30 years of redistricting in this state. 4 There are those of us who have fought not to swim the 5 Trinity River, but to make sure that the Trinity River did 6 not divide us between if 5th and the 24th Congressional 7 District. And here we find ourselves some 30 years later, 8 still fighting that same battle. 9 Never before have our state officials 10 attempted to redraw congressional lines without a legal 11 imperative to do so. No legal mandate exists. 12 The only apparent motivation is the 13 (inaudible) of the greed of Tom DeLay. While it is not 14 surprising, it is nonetheless disappointing that your 15 partisanship and political fear exceed your respect for the 16 Voting Rights Act. 17 The current congressional district lines 18 significantly favor Republican in the 20 of the 32 19 districts. The only way you can guarantee the election of 20 more Republicans is to pack and crack minority communities 21 throughout throughout this state and trample on their voting 22 rights. 23 There is no better example of voter minority 24 dilution than in North Texas. We currently have two 25 minority opportunity districts in North Texas. District 30,

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Page 91 1 represented by Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson; and 2 District 24, represented by Congressman Martin Frost. 3 Under the plan your committee approved 4 earlier this year, the 24th District is effectively 5 dismantled of its African-American base in Fort Worth, and 6 it is sheered off into the strength of both African-American 7 and Hispanic currently in the 24th District. 8 The plan then packed minority voters in 9 District 30 beyond what is needed to elect Congresswoman 10 Johnson or any other African-American candidate. The net 11 result is that the balance of Fort Worth is up, with one 12 less minority opportunity district as one additional safe 13 Republican district. 14 This packing and cracking pattern is repeated 15 all over the state. It displaced minority voters from 16 districts where they have a meaningful voice in the election 17 in two districts, where their vote simply won't matter. The 18 damage done to minority communities whether in a safe 19 Republican district or replaced in a Democratic district, 20 when you look at the most recent NAACP voting studies. 21 In the most recent report, the Texas 22 Democrats in Congress scored an average of 82 percent. Both 23 Congresswoman Johnson and Congressman Martin Frost scored 24 over 90 percent. Texas Republicans, however, scored on an 25 average of 24 percent. In fact, not a single Republican

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Page 92 1 from Texas scored better than 33 percent. I don't know 2 about your school system, but 33 percent, that means they 3 all get F's. 4 Mr. Chairman, with all due respect -- with 5 all due respect, I don't know about your school system but F 6 in the language of the streets means something different 7 than just a failing grade. 8 And so, as a result, today I come to you as 9 you have reasonably talked to me about Section V and 10 preclearance of the Voting Rights Act. I submit to you that 11 this plan CSHB 3398, while barring good comments comments 12 about increasing minority representation, is a subterfuge. 13 It's a subterfuge and takes and injuries African and 14 Hispanic voters in this particular community for the next 15 decade. 16 Mr. Chairman, I implore you and the members 17 of your committee for once to do the right thing and to 18 reject this particular House bill. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Ron Brown has 20 passed a note to the Chair that he does not wish to testify. 21 He was called by to the County, so in keeping with -- 22 staying with the against and for, we will -- the next 23 testimony will be from Nate Crain, and then Mayor Ralph 24 McCloud. 25 NATE CRAIN

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Page 93 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I just 2 want to make a point of inquiry here. If I go to bathroom, 3 will I be let me back in? 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Deborah Angell 5 Smith. I have never seen Angell Smith spelled that way. 6 DEBORAH ANGELL SMITH 7 My grandfather had quite the flair. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Democratic Party 9 Chair of Collin County. 10 THE WITNESS: Again, my name is Debra Angell 11 Smith and I am the Democratic Party Chair for Collin County. 12 Before I start my prepared remarks I would like to say that 13 I first met Representative Raymond your freshman session. I 14 cannot recall how many years ago, but I think he shaved at 15 least once a week back then. He was a little fresh and 16 adorable freshman and I have been bragging on him for eight 17 or nine years. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Chairman, I 19 think he is still fresh and adorable. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, you don't, Ken. 21 THE WITNESS: But I must say I am very 22 impressed with him and I am very glad I have been telling 23 people for so many years that Richard Raymond is one of the 24 representatives that I am very proud to know and I think he 25 is one of the people who is really involved in politics for

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Page 94 1 all of the right reasons. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you proceed 3 with your testimony, please? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was trying to come up 5 with something nice to say about Mr. Grusendorf but I will 6 proceed. 7 As the County Chair for the Democratic party 8 of Collin County I speak not only for myself, but on behalf 9 of more than 30,000 voters who voted for Democratic 10 candidates in the 2002 election. Gee, I am sorry that 11 Mr. Burnham is not here because I just had one of my 12 associates do some math for me. That means 42 percent of 13 our registered voters, 27 percent of our citizens, and we 14 calculated that 29 percent of our citizens are under 18. 15 Just over 130,000 Collin County residents 16 voted in the 2002 elections. Simple math tells us that 17 roughly 23 percent of those who voted preferred democratic 18 candidates. By any measure that makes us the minority. I 19 know that. We know that. And we all know that in politics 20 a majority rules. But only some of us seem to remember that 21 one of the key principles that made this country great, for 22 those who seem to have forgotten I will quote one of your 23 late Presidents, Republican William Howard Taft, who said 24 about the concept of popular government, "It rests in the 25 knowledge of the majority that the rights of the minority

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Page 95 1 and in the individuals of that minority are exactly as 2 sacred as the rights in the individuals of the majority." 3 This insidious effort is all about majority 4 rule without regard for minority rights. Without regard for 5 50,000 Hispanics in Collin County. Without regard for 6 34,000 Asians, 23,000 African Americans, and without regard 7 for the 50,000 people in Collin County who live in the rural 8 areas. The white suburban Republican majority want to lump 9 us all together with a white suburban Republican to 10 represent us. 11 Tom Delay and the Republicans in Washington 12 seem to think they are entitled to a certain percentage of 13 representatives from Texas. Now, if we follow that logic, 14 which I don't, but if we did I would say that we are 15 entitled to 23 percent of the share of the representatives 16 from Collin County and based on the plan that is proposed 17 which lumps all of Collin County into one district which is 18 currently represented by , I would have to submit 19 I do not want 23 percent of Sam Johnson. I hesitate to 20 speculate what percent that might be. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Your testimony is 22 that you would be against this map and you would be for this 23 map? 24 THE WITNESS: I am. I would prefer the 25 present map. I would concur with those who say it's not

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Page 96 1 perfect, but I think it is vastly to be preferred over the 2 one that is proposed, and I do think that redistricting at 3 this time is not appropriate and is a sham. As many of my 4 friends are wearing today, in America voters get to pick 5 their representatives, representatives don't pick their 6 voters. 7 And I must admit it has been a long time 8 since I have been a government student, but as best I recall 9 the Voting Rights Act is not about apportionment on the 10 basis of political party. 11 In closing I would like to quote another 12 great, late President. A Democrat and Texan, Lyndon Banes 13 Johnson, who said, "As the House is designed to provide a 14 reflection of the mood of the moment, the Senate is meant to 15 reflect the continuity of the past. To preserve the 16 delicate balance of justice between the majorities whims and 17 minorities rights." 18 I appreciate your efforts. I acknowledge you 19 have all worked hard on this project and that you will 20 continue to work during this sham special session and I am 21 counting on the Senate. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 23 testimony. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Chair recognizes 25 Charles Rose, Justice of the Peace, Dallas County, against.

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Page 97 1 Mr. Rose may have had to leave. I will show he is not 2 testifying but being against the Bill. Thomas Jones, 3 Justice of the Peace from Dallas, against the Bill. I'm 4 sorry, against doing any redistricting. Derrick Evans, 5 Constable, Dallas County Precinct Number 1, wants to be 6 shown -- wants to be shown against any new redistricting. 7 Mike Dupree, Constable, Precinct 5, Dallas 8 County. Okay, we have written testimony from him that he 9 would like to be submitted with this. Thank you. 10 Donald Hill, Dallas County Seat Council 11 Member. 12 DONALD HILL 13 THE WITNESS: I guess I have some nice 14 friends in here. That's good. Mr. Chair and members of the 15 Committee, my name is Donald Hill. I am a city council 16 member for the city of Dallas representing District 5, 17 basically southwest Dallas all the way into southeast 18 Dallas. Eddie Bernice Johnson is my Congresswoman. 19 Just a couple of things I did want to say 20 before I got started. Number one, I do think that there has 21 been a considerable amount of discussion about the wisdom or 22 lack thereof of those 51 Representatives that went to 23 Ardmore and stopped this process, and I think each and every 24 one of us, even those that really opposed what they did 25 ought to be happy that that took place, because if that had

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Page 98 1 not taken place we would not be here. We not have a chance 2 to really express to you how we feel with the type of fervor 3 that we do so that you know going back to this special 4 session how we really feel. So I personally appreciate and 5 thank every one of those 51 Representatives. 6 A couple of things I wanted to say that deal 7 with the issue itself. We believe that the plan that is 8 being proposed, the Congressional plan that is being 9 proposed is one that is retrogressive in nature, 10 particularly from the standpoint of the African American 11 communities in the way that it packs minority citizens, 12 voters, into what would be a new District 30. 13 I clearly prefer the plan that we have at the 14 present. And it comes across in our day-to-day lives as a 15 counsel person, maybe more so than maybe some of the others, 16 maybe I am claiming more than I need to, but in city halls 17 and I have been here for about four hours and I have heard a 18 lot of city council people here that are supposedly 19 nonpartisan, but what you hear from city council people is 20 that we have issues. Those issues that we face on a 21 day-to-day basis; housing, economic development, 22 environment, transportation, jobs, all those issues are 23 slowly rolling back down into our city halls, and we have 24 done -- many of us have done a lot of work over these years 25 nurturing relationships with our congressional people, and

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Page 99 1 so this is a very scary thought that those relationships 2 that have helped us to form plans for developing our 3 communities and taking responsibility for many of the things 4 that you are continuing to send to us. And in some respects 5 you are shirking some responsibility for taking charge of 6 those things. 7 We need too have those voices that we have in 8 the past, those consistent voices, and packing us into 9 District 30 as opposed to us being able to continue to rely, 10 as an example, on the votes and support of Martin Frost in 11 the 24th, as well as Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson in 12 30, and not to just focus on Dallas, but even to what is 13 happening in the Houston district, to splinter us we believe 14 is wrong. It is, in our judgement, illegal and it is not a 15 prudent course for you to follow. 16 I think that what offends me is that a 17 gentleman like Joe May who has fought for many years on 18 redistricting issues in this area, some might believe that 19 he is not and doesn't really represent as aggressively as 20 some might think my interest, but Joe May and I are on one 21 accord. We are not opposing one another, but what this 22 plan -- what this proposed plan does is basically take a 23 district, District 30, shift the population balance over to 24 the Hispanics, makes it a more compact minority district and 25 basically has Joe May and I fighting with one another about

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Page 100 1 whose district it is, and that is just flat wrong. 2 And I would just remind -- I would just 3 remind the committee members that these districts, the ones 4 that we have in place now, with I think a proper recognition 5 of inner city interests, are very important to us as we go 6 forward. We face, as much as people would like to think 7 that suburban America is a wonderful place, and it is a 8 wonderful place. Suburban America depends on inner city, 9 and to the extent we are weakened by you taking advocates 10 for inner city growth, and development, and services, taking 11 them out of the equation and adding districts that are 12 basically dominated by suburban communities are going to end 13 up hurting every one of us in the end. So I would prefer 14 it, and I think I am speaking on behalf of the residents of 15 District 5 of my city, to leave the present plan in place. 16 I am against going back in for redistricting. 17 I want to thank Tom Delay and everybody else 18 is that is bringing us here to do this, because I have been 19 watching this and participating in this for twenty years, 20 and for me I cannot remember this energized, motivated a 21 group of voters and participants as I am seeing today. I 22 think what you are going to see -- I think what you are 23 going to see is if you want war, then we will have war at 24 these next elections. I think we have the troops. Thank 25 you.

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Page 101 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 2 testimony. 3 Mr. Duncan, the Dallas County School Board 4 Trustee. 5 LARRY DUNCAN 6 Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, Representatives, 7 neighbors. I am here to bring an additional perspective to 8 this discussion. So far most of the focus has been on 9 speaker after speaker, and on questioning after questioning, 10 one party versus another, and really the electoral process 11 transcends that, and that is the point that is being missed 12 in this entire process. 13 One of the reasons our country, politics are 14 special. We fight wars for it. We celebrate them every 15 4th of July, and yet when someone refers to another person 16 as a politician, that's a pejorative term. Politicians and 17 politics are in disrepute and it's because of this sort of 18 process. The census primarily was set up by the Founding 19 Fathers, and they were fathers at that time, was set up to 20 support redistricting and taxation, two purposes. And it 21 was set every ten years. And the worst thing any politician 22 does at any level as far as the general public is concerned 23 and most involved, is redistricting. 24 It's done and it is set up ten years, and at 25 the end of every time at every level of government,

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Page 102 1 everybody walks away complaining. Everybody. It's going to 2 happen, and it's the most divisive process. It pits 3 neighbor against neighbor. Council Member Hill talked about 4 how people that have worked together 20 years are getting 5 split by this sort of thing. That's why we can only afford 6 to do it once every ten years. 7 And we will never resolve who did what to who 8 during the process in 2001, or in 1991 or 1981, and we won't 9 be able to do it in 2011. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yes, we will. 11 THE WITNESS: We will never agree on who did 12 what to who, or who is at fault. The only thing that we 13 know for sure is the map that comes out of that, both sides 14 are not going to like. I really appreciated the Mayor from 15 Waco coming up. It kind of brought it back. I served four 16 terms on the Dallas City Council. Like the office I 17 currently hold, nonpartisan, we depend upon at the local 18 level people, neighbors, people from across town, across the 19 county being able to work together and not have the 20 divisiveness that we are seeing coming into at the 21 Congressional, and the state, and down, down to the local 22 level. We have gotten the word that nonpartisan cooperation 23 on issues is no longer acceptable. It has come down and 24 that's why we are here where we are. 25 Make no mistake, I am against the process. I

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Page 103 1 will not get trapped into arguing this map against that map, 2 because it's not about that map. We all know there is -- 3 that rural Texans, their interests as a community of 4 interest across the state are being sacrificed as a result 5 of this to a higher agenda. You heard the middle sized 6 cities, the Mayor of Waco speaking. I am -- representatives 7 like Counsel Member Hill, the inner city of Dallas on the 8 counsel is getting sacrificed. The interests are getting 9 sacrificed. These are communities of interest and we know 10 what is going on. It's an overall effort. 11 Now what's going to happen? I mean today I 12 promised some folks who asked that I would be here and 13 speak. I spent most of the morning when I was supposed to 14 be getting ready trying to think up an excuse because it's a 15 nice day out there. There is a lot of stuff I would rather 16 be doing, and I am sure these folks would, and I am sure you 17 would, but I came because I figured I better start getting 18 used to it now, because if we do it here. We, they. If 19 they do it here, we will do this every two years. It will 20 become part of the process, and it's rather than ten years 21 it will become every two years, or maybe there be will be a 22 tactical political decision like you referred to earlier 23 where in 2001 the timing wasn't right, so it was done in 24 2003. 25 Folks, we have so many problems. Don't tear

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Page 104 1 the cities, the communities of interest apart. Don't do the 2 process. Don't do it. Don't tear rural Texas apart. It's 3 bad enough we will go back and we will fight hammer and 4 tong. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 6 testimony. Mr. Raymond. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you for taking 8 it to a higher level. Let me ask you, do you believe -- I 9 would take it from your comments, but I will ask you, do you 10 believe in the constitutional rule of one person, one vote. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Is Dallas County 13 growing? You represent part of Dallas. Is it growing? I 14 assume it is. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And some of the 17 surrounding areas around Dallas, you are growing? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Some of them fast. 20 Let's say the last three years growing pretty good? Good 21 clip? 22 THE WITNESS: Some areas more than others. 23 Some are actually declining. Those are the communities of 24 interest getting cut most in this. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Now I was sitting

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Page 105 1 here wondering then, and I am not an attorney, you are not 2 going to get real fancy questions from me, but how we 3 honor -- how we can honor the one person, one vote if we 4 redistrict now since you had growth patterns that have 5 changed since the last census occurred. The last count was 6 taken, its been long enough from the last count as I 7 mentioned to somebody earlier in Laredo for example we have 8 grown tremendously in two and-a-half years. 9 Are there -- as far as you know what numbers 10 would we use? Are we going to use the three year old 11 numbers I guess, is that the way you see it? 12 A. That's the way the Constitution sees it. We use 13 it every ten years to redistrict. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: When you do it every 15 ten years, you are using brand new numbers at the end of 16 those ten years? 17 THE WITNESS: Right. You always have a new 18 number to work with, and that's inherent in the process. 19 There are no new numbers. There is not another substantive 20 process that's gone out and actually counted by the heads 21 since the 2001 census. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So by the time that 23 whoever is drawing the map of Jim Ellis or whatever sits 24 down and does the final map, I think that's pretty much it 25 there, but he won't have any new numbers. He will have to

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Page 106 1 use three year old numbers. What does that do the one 2 person, one vote? 3 THE WITNESS: I see where you are headed with 4 that, and yes, farther into the ten year cycle you do the 5 redistricting, the more stale your numbers are, but the 6 point is we shouldn't be going back and redistricting any 7 way. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I agree with that. 9 THE WITNESS: I am just trying to avoid going 10 down an aside. Nobody else has been talking about that. 11 They have been talking about other issues that have been 12 covered. We know that the dissolution -- the dissolution on 13 the minority voting is going to be in the courts and all 14 those things. That this a point of view of a local 15 official. You know, Harry Truman had the sign on his desk, 16 "The buck stops here". Uh-uh, it stops down here at the 17 bottom and where the people are going to grab you by the 18 cuff of the neck at the supermarket or when you go to the 19 laundry, and, you know, a lot has been dumped back by the 20 feds on the state. And you also know when it has been 21 dumped back on the locals, and this is the ones hurt by this 22 process, and I would be saying this even if you were going 23 to let me draw the map. 24 And the divisiveness, and you talk about the 25 emotion you have seen here, and this is pretty much -- this

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Page 107 1 is quite a level. When the disruption gets down, and 2 anybody who has been an elected official in a district the 3 first time after redistricting knows how long it takes to 4 sort out all of the things. You are always getting calls, 5 but people who need the basic service and don't know who to 6 call, because "I have been in so and so's district since 7 forever. How come you are there now?" That will go on 8 every two years now, because it's not enough. What I have 9 heard in this debate is it's no enough that it just be a 10 majority of a particular political party. It has got to get 11 the right outcome. It's possible for people in a district 12 to vote for one party's President and another one's 13 Congressman. 14 What I am hearing is that is not just a raw 15 number instead of the population, but the party count, and 16 like I say this works -- I mean there is nothing worse than 17 redistricting on both parties and everybody else. 18 But it's going to keep on, and it's not going 19 to be just yeah, they were of a particular party but they 20 didn't elect the right person. They didn't exercise. So we 21 have to redistrict to tinker it a little more, and those 22 communities of interest at the local level or whatever are 23 getting ripped up by this. Please stop it. Don't do it. 24 Don't sacrifice the locals. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your

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Page 108 1 testimony. Thank you, very much. At this time Edra Boyd.

2 Bogle. Edra is Denton County Democratic Chair and is

3 against doing any redistricting.

4 EDRA BOGLE

5 Distinguished Representatives and audience. I am glad to be

6 able to be here today and to talk about this issue. First,

7 I would like to say something to the audience and

8 particularly the Democrats in the audience. Please, no

9 matter how tempting it is to try and drown out some of the

10 opposition we really need to follow parliamentary procedure

11 and allow everyone to be heard.

12 We know how important -- how important parliamentary

13 procedure was when some of our legislators went to

14 Arlington. As former departmental parliamentarian in the

15 English Department at North Texas, I know how many really

16 nasty departmental arguments were kept more or less civil by

17 following parliamentary procedures, so please allow both

18 sides to be heard. It's the only way we can operate in a

19 democracy.

20 Okay, I have four-points to make. First, Denton

21 County is a perfect example of what happens to a county when

22 it is split. In a way I am talking against Denton County's

23 interest because it is put back together in the new

24 districting plan. We have been split in the 20 years that I

25 have worked elections in different parts of the county on

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Page 109 1 all sorts of different levels. We have been split three 2 ways from Sunday by two censuses, and then precincts have 3 been split up and reworked by the county commissioners as it 4 grew. And I have heard person after person say, "I am not 5 even going to bother to vote. I don't know these folks. I 6 was always in the 30th and now here I am in something else." 7 Both Republican and Democrats, I have to had 8 to turn people away from the polls because they got there 9 late and they don't have time to drive across town to find a 10 new precinct. It discourages people in general, and as 11 Mr. Duncan was saying just before me, if they don't have -- 12 if there is no stability in the election process. 13 Second point. It really is unprecedented to 14 do this kind of redistricting. We have heard several cases 15 where it has indeed been done, and in each case there was a 16 slight mention of a court order or an attorney general's 17 order. In this case the Republican Attorney General Gregg 18 Abbott this spring ruled that indeed while the legislature 19 might go ahead if it wanted to and redistrict, the current 20 plan is perfectly legal according to him. 21 Third, this is sort of a silly but if we do 22 want to redistrict so that everyone is represented, then 23 maybe we need to work out some plan where 51 percent of the 24 legislature is women. I have been a woman all my life. 25 Perhaps 6 percent of the legislature should be unemployed.

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Page 110 1 Maybe ten percent of it should be gay or lesbian. Although 2 the applause is appreciated, we know that is extremely 3 awkward and not likely to happen, but it does show what 4 lengths one goes to to try to get complete equity in 5 redistricting. 6 My final point is money. Bogle is a Scottish 7 word and I have always been very tight with my money and 8 other money. This special session is costing a lot of 9 money. The appearance are costing a lot of money. If there 10 is redistricting, it's going to cost a lot of money to 11 change the stationary, and the paperwork, and computer 12 programs and all of that kind of thing. 13 And it's also going to cost a lot of money 14 for the court appeal that will undoubtedly come from the 15 losing side, so let's not waste our time and our money any 16 more on a plan which is not called for by the Republican 17 Attorney General and which is not called for by the 18 Constitution. Thank you. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time our 20 next witness. Can someone not hear us? At this time 21 Mr. Dan Flynn, State Representative from Van, Texas. 22 Mr. Flynn is going to give his testimony from the podium -- 23 from the table. 24 DAN FLYNN 25 Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the Committee. My

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Page 111 1 name is Dan Flynn. I am a State Representative from House

2 District 2, and I want to thank you for holding these public

3 hearings, and I think that it is proper for our Governor to

4 call this special session to consider redistricting. As you

5 recall in 2001 after the census of 2000, the legislature was

6 required by law to draw new district lines. The legislature

7 did some of this work, but not the Congressional lines.

8 Therefore the court in 2001 had to draw and had to step in

9 and redraw the lines.

10 An appointed federal judiciary panel drew the current

11 partisan interim map. It increased the districts by two to

12 reflect the increased population in Texas. It is apparent

13 most of the work was done to preserve the status quo, to

14 protect incumbent's districts. The map issued by the court

15 was at best a stopgap. It was not intended to usurp the

16 Legislature of its responsibility in drawing the final map.

17 I along with many members and a majority of the citizens in

18 my district feel it is the constitutional responsibility of

19 the legislature to review the interim map and to finalize

20 the lines in this decade.

21 I believe this special session is required because we were

22 unable to consider this important issue during the regular

23 78th session due to the failure of the 77th legislative

24 session to pass a fair Congressional redistricting plan in

25 2001, and the lack of a quorum that prevented us from

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Page 112 1 considering a fair redistricting plan in the 2003

2 legislative session.

3 I think we need to return to Austin to finish the people's

4 business. The Texas Legislature has a responsibility and

5 need to draw Congressional Districts.

6 Thank you for this opportunity to express the opinions

7 that I have and to express the opinions of the people of the

8 district that I represent.

9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you,

10 Mr. Flynn. Thank you, very much.

11 At this time are there any other state reps

12 that have not -- that are not on the panel that have not

13 spoken who would like to give testimony.

14 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Marchant, I just

15 want to say I have written testimony. I will submit that in

16 writing for me.

17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you,

18 Mr. Dunnam.

19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, we

20 don't have any more state reps; is that correct?

21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have a couple of

22 things to read in.

23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I was just asking.

24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am going to check

25 that here real quick. You want to speak beforehand?

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Page 113 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, I know there 2 is at least one former state representative. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I saw Garfield out 4 there. If he would like to testify, I don't have a witness 5 affirmation for him, but thank you for bringing that -- 6 MR. THOMPSON: I signed one. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Well, we will look 8 through there, Mr. Thompson, and in just a moment we will 9 allow you the opportunity to testify. 10 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Chairman, I would 11 prefer to wait to make sure everybody that is here today 12 gets to testify, so I will wait until the end of the day. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Helen Giddings has 14 a letter she would like to have in the record. Thank you. 15 Its starts out, "Thanks for providing me the opportunity to 16 express my opinions through this correspondence. I deeply 17 regret that travel of a critical nature prevents my being 18 with you." 19 So without objection from the Committee I am 20 going to enter her letter. 21 AUDIENCE MEMBER: What's her position? 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Helen Giddings in 23 her letter is against redistricting. State representatives 24 are not required to fill out a witness affirmation and so 25 their comments will be put in at their request. We will do

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Page 114 1 that at this time. Her letter in its entirety will be 2 entered into the record as being against the redistricting. 3 If you will allow me at this time to 4 recognize former State Representative Garfield Thompson. 5 While he is coming forward I would like to read two 6 documents into the record. These are part of the official 7 record. This will give to you in his own words the Governor 8 of Texas Proclamation. I think we can read that so 9 everybody can hear it if you haven't seen it. 10 I would like to read the summary from Gregg 11 Abbott, the Attorney General of Texas, into the record. 12 Proclamation, at this time I will read the Proclamation by 13 the Governor of the State of Texas: (reading) To whom all 14 these presence come. Whereas federal law requires state 15 legislatures to draw -- redraw Congressional District lines 16 after each decennial census, and whereas the Texas 17 Legislature has not drawn any new district lines to reflect 18 the changes in the Texas population since the results of the 19 last census were released, and whereas the people have 20 placed the power to call and convene the Legislature into 21 special session in the hands of the Chief Executive of the 22 State of Texas, now therefore I Rick Perry, Governor of the 23 State of Texas, by the authority vested in me by Article 4, 24 Section 8 of the Texas Constitution do hereby call a special 25 session of the 78th Legislature to be convened in the city

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Page 115 1 of Austin commencing at 10:00 a.m, Monday, the 30th day of

2 June,2003, for the following purpose: To consider

3 legislation relating to Congressional Districts. The

4 Secretary of State will take notice of this action and

5 notify the members of the Legislature.

6 It is signed by the hand of Rick Perry on

7 June the 21st of 2003. Upon this Proclamation, the Speaker

8 of the House notified the Chairman of the redistricting that

9 he felt like it was best that we fan out across the state in

10 subcommittees so we could have as many places at one time

11 and have hearings, and the result of that is the result of

12 our hearing today.

13 Mr. Thompson. Garfield Thompson, we are

14 going to continue to look for your witness affirmation.

15 GARFIELD THOMPSON

16 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a pleasure to be here today.

17 But I have heard the testimony from Congresswoman Eddie

18 Bernice Johnson, Commissioner John Wiley Price, Art Brender

19 who is County Chair for Fort Worth, Texas, and also

20 Councilman Duncan. I concur with all of those statements,

21 but I won't repeat them in the interest of time, but I would

22 just like the say that redistricting is supposed to be done

23 every ten years after the census count. That's the way it

24 has been done.

25 Now, member of your committee there, Ken, who he and I

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Page 116 1 served together during the last redistricting, Ken

2 Grusendorf, he will tell you and anybody who ask him that we

3 were really fair. I had the House tied up where he couldn't

4 move because they didn't have the votes, and Speaker says to

5 me, Garfield, you and Mike go back in my office and see what

6 you can come up with about these lines so we can move the

7 thing off dead center. Took a good one, Ken and four other

8 Republicans at the time, and they didn't have the majority.

9 They got a fair shot.

10 A lot of questions have been asked about Martin Frost in

11 the 24th, and why he came to Tarrant County. It was an

12 agreement between Congressman Pete Guerrin of the 12th in

13 Fort Worth, Texas. He and Martin Frost met in my living

14 room with me and asked if Martin could come over in Tarrant

15 County to get some votes.

16 Now, for the benefit of the stenographer here I am the

17 Political Action Chair For the NAACP Fort Worth branch of

18 Tarrant County. I am also the Political Action Chair for

19 the A. Phillip Randolf Institute, Fort Worth Chapter of the

20 A. Phillip Randolf. And I also serve as the representative

21 for the AFLCIO Human Resources Development Institute which

22 is the manpower arm of the AFLCIO, so I wear three hats.

23 And the labor people will tell you that I had 100 percent

24 voting record for labor when I was in the House.

25 I just want to say to the Committee, let's

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Page 117 1 tell it like it is. What is the purpose of you going from 2 place to place? The majority -- the minority hears Tom 3 Delay has said, "Okay, we have got the . We have 4 got the Senate. We have got the House of Representatives. 5 We have a President who was appointed by the Supreme Court." 6 They have got the whole ball of wax with the exception of 7 the Texas delegation. What Tom Delay is saying, "We have 8 got everything. We need the whole ball of wax. Let's get 9 the Texas delegation," so that's why they are trying to 10 change the Texas delegation by asking us to have a special 11 session to have the representatives changed -- the 12 Congressional representatives change. That's the bottom 13 line. Tom Delay wants the Texas delegation to be in his 14 grasp. He doesn't have it right now due to the fact he 15 don't have the numbers. That's the bottom line folks. We 16 may as well admit to it, that's it. 17 With this appointed President I heard that 18 these missiles of mass destruction. I didn't believe we 19 were going over there. I spent 20 months in Persian Gulf in 20 World War II. Lot of folks don't know that we had troops in 21 Persian Gulf in World War II. I spent 20 months in Iran, 22 and then in addition to that I spent six months on the Burma 23 Road in World War II. Came home on TDY. 24 But any way, the purpose of this, I heard 25 Nelson Mandela say on the radio that we have a racist

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Page 118 1 President. I am not saying this. This is what I heard 2 Mandela say. Why Mandela says that because of the effects 3 of the United Nations, Annan who is the Chairman of the 4 United Nations, Kofi Annan. That's why he said that he had 5 this problem about Bush was against it. With or without the 6 help of the United Nations he was going to go to war with 7 Iraq. Having spent 20 months in that Persian Gulf I want to 8 tell you folks the heat is terrible. My fear was with all 9 of that mass destruction and all of these poison gas and 10 mobile laboratories they claim they had, which I never 11 believed until I heard Colin Powell tell the nation that 12 they did have them, and at this point they haven't found 13 them. I think they found maybe two trucks maybe, but all 14 this mass destruction stuff, if our boys, if they had that, 15 our boys went over there and they had to put on those suits 16 to protect themselves from these poison gases, they would 17 suffocated. 18 I got over into the Gulf in March, the rainy 19 season. The flies were terrible. The natives came to me 20 and says, "Come June the flies will die. Come August you 21 will die". I asked them, "Well, why won't you-all die?" 22 They say, "We move up into the mountains." And the sanitary 23 conditions over there were terrible. When I am talking 24 about the flies, when they got ready to do their business, 25 they go down by the water and do their business and clean

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Page 119 1 themselves with this left-hand. That's why you see them now 2 don't use their left-hand in that part of the country 3 because it's not clean. 4 So people, I want to say to you members of 5 the Committee, some of you I served -- in my ten years there 6 I served from 1985 to 1995. I wasn't defeated. I retired. 7 Reby Carey stood here today before you people and says to 8 you why he was defeated. I was asked to run against Reby 9 Carey because of the fact he supported Clements for 10 Governor, but why did he support Clements? It wasn't for 11 the benefit of the minority community. It was for the 12 benefit of Reby Carey had Clements won. I want you people 13 to understand that the things you heard Reby Carey say here 14 today about him representing the minority community, he did 15 it. I was a supporter for him. I voted for him. I helped 16 him get elected, but then he came and he left his party and 17 became a supporter of the other party. He wasn't a people 18 for our community. Thank you very much, and if you have any 19 questions I will be happy to answer. 20 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Thompson, it's 21 always a pleasure to see you. Is it your testimony that the 22 only African American that appeared today to testify in 23 favor of Congressional District line changes was, in fact, 24 defeated you by you in the Democratic primary because the 25 Democratic office holder endorsed a Republican candidate for

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Page 120 1 Governor.? 2 THE WITNESS: That's a fact. 3 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you for 4 clarifying that. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time I 6 would like to read Mr. Abbott's summary of his Attorney 7 General's opinion since it has been brought up two or three 8 times. And this is the summary that he gave to Mr. Joe 9 Crabb after Mr. Joe Crabb asked him about the legislature 10 doing redistricting. 11 (reading) The Texas Legislature is 12 constitutionally responsible for apportioning the state into 13 Congressional Districts. Neither the Texas Legislature or a 14 Texas state court however approved a valid plan for 15 redrawing the state's Congressional Districts. The federal 16 court in Balderas vs. Texas, Number 601-CV-5 -- 158 at 17 edition Texas Number 4023, and it has several other 18 citations in there which would mean something to the 19 lawyers. Created a new Congressional redistricting plan for 20 Texas without having a baseline state plan before it. The 21 United States Constitution entrusts the task of drawing 22 Congressional boundaries to the state, but there exists no 23 mechanism to force compliance with this constitutional 24 responsibility. The Texas Legislature has present authority 25 to adopt a Congressional redistricting plan based on 2000

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Page 121 1 census. Unless and until the legislature adopts such a 2 plan, the map drawn in 2002 by the three Judge court -- 3 federal court panel in Balderas vs. Texas will continue to 4 be the Congressional redistricting plan for Texas. 5 This is the summary of the letter that the 6 Attorney General sent to Mr. Crabb. It has been referred to 7 a few times. I thought we could read that. At this time we 8 are going to go farther into testimony. 9 There is Mr. Dunnam would like to have his 10 remarks put into the record, and without objection we will 11 have Mr. Dunnam's remarks put into the record. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: : Mr. Chairman, can 13 I read something into the record right quickly? 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Certainly. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: These are some of 16 the notes I made earlier in the day and I had my staff check 17 out. My understanding that the Committee or maybe the 18 speakers staff I believe told the university that this room 19 would be adequate for this hearing and it has not been. It 20 is now I think, but I am not sure, but it certainly hasn't 21 been. In the beginning of the hearing the Fire Marshal had 22 to step in and control access. People left rather than 23 testify because the room was closed. When I went to the 24 bathroom the first time they questioned whether or not I 25 could come back in.

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Page 122 1 These problems are the result of a new 2 process being conducted that did not allow adequate planning 3 or accommodations. Finally, the Committee has failed the 4 citizens of Texas by engaging in an unprecedented 5 redistricting process that has limited the ability of Texans 6 to participate, and I wanted that for the record because 7 that's important. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, 9 Mr. Raymond. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You're welcome. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would like to 12 thank again the Texas Southwest Medical School staff, 13 Dr. Webber and her staff for accommodating this group today, 14 and for their making all the provisions for us to have this 15 public hearing today and they have been -- they have done, 16 in my opinion, an admirable job of trying to conform to the 17 fire codes of the Fire Marshal and have cooperated every 18 time that we have brought something to their attention to 19 try to make things better for the public hearing. 20 At this time I am going to begin another 21 round of testimony. I will -- some of the people will be 22 here. All of these will be entered into the record and the 23 first person is Cathy Adams, and Cathy Adams is for the 24 redistrict -- for the redistricting. Her comment was, 25 "Please consider communities of interest in final the work

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Page 123 1 of your committee. Thank you for serving the people of 2 Texas". She is not going to testify but is for the 3 redistricting Bill. 4 Next witness will be Bob Gammage. Bob 5 Gammage is from Arlington and is against. Did not testify. 6 Is against. 7 The next -- I'm sorry, Mr. Gammage is here. 8 The next testimony will be from Tim Hoy for the Bill after 9 Mr. Gammage. Oh, I'm sorry. Thought you may have had to 10 leave. 11 BOB GAMMAGE 12 Good to be here. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Members, I 13 appreciate the opportunity to visit with you today, although 14 this particular type of hearing process -- 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Former Supreme 16 Court Judge. 17 THE WITNESS: Former State House Member, 18 former State Senator, former U.S. Congressman, former Court 19 of Appeals Justice, former Supreme Court Justice, practicing 20 lawyer in Arlington Texas. I do appreciate the opportunity 21 and thank you for bringing that up, Mr. Chairman. My first 22 race for the legislature was in 1970. Now there are not 23 many people in this room who remember how our state House 24 districts were configured at that time but it's an important 25 point. All state representatives in Dallas County were

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Page 124 1 elected county wide. All state representatives in Tarrant 2 County were elected county wide. All state representatives 3 in El Paso County were elected county wide. All state 4 representatives in Nueces County were elected county wide. 5 In Jefferson County. In Harris County they brought us a 6 little closer to home. We had three six member districts 7 and one seven member district. 8 I ran from District 24 which at that time was 9 identical to the 22nd Congressional District occupied by 10 Congressman Bob Casey, very . That 11 district had a silk stocking tilting to Republican west 12 side, a blue color labor oriented east side. One-third of 13 the district, smack-dab in the middle, was African American. 14 The district was represent by six white males. There was 15 only one woman in the Texas House at that time, Sissy 16 Farenthold, Frances Farenthold from Corpus Christi. There 17 was only one black representative in the House at that time, 18 Zan Holmes from Dallas. There were very few Hispanics. 19 There were some from south Texas and one Laurel Cruz, the 20 fist Hispanic ever elected from Houston, the district on the 21 northeast side. I represented a district which it would 22 have to be denominated the south central and southeast side. 23 For those of you who might be familiar with Houston, it ran 24 from Hillcroft on the west, very silk stocking, to Seabrook 25 on the east. Houston ship channel on the north to Clear

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Page 125 1 Creek and the county line on the south. 2 There were roughly 750,000 folks in that 3 district. There were roughly, oh, probably half that number 4 who were eligible voters. In that district there were 5 probably as I said one third African Americans. In order to 6 have any influence in the legislative process in the Texas 7 House, those people in the 24th Congressional legislative 8 district had to barter their votes. They had to align 9 themselves with the people supporting the white male 10 candidate who was most friendly or least hostile. The 11 delegation was split pretty well down the middle in that 12 respect. They had to barter their votes in dealing with 13 legislative candidates who were being financed by special 14 interest groups because they had to run throughout an entire 15 congressional district to get elected to the state House. 16 All ran at large. They ran by place. 17 My own experience was I ran in a five way 18 primary. I was picked to come in dead last, and I got into 19 a runoff with one of the two people who were picked to come 20 in first and be in a runoff first and second. One who came 21 in second supported me in the runoff and I wound up winning 22 the thing, and it was a wonderful experience because we 23 conducted a grass roots campaign. You couldn't do it today 24 in a single member district the way we did it then unless 25 you got enough people who were interested.

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Page 126 1 There was no media. There was no television. 2 There was no radio. There were thousands, and thousands, 3 and thousands of signs, and thousands, and thousands, and 4 thousands of doors knocked. I went through two pairs of 5 shoes, two sets of tires, two transmissions 150 kids, two 6 silk screens. We made all of the signs in my driveway. It 7 was a wonderful experience because it proved one thing and 8 that is the people can make a difference. Without money, 9 without special interest influence, if they will get active 10 and get involved they can and did make a difference because 11 the primary plank in my platform as a candidate was single 12 member legislative districts to ensure that those 13 communities of interest in that district, and statewide 14 hopefully, would have their voice heard in that legislative 15 process whether I disagreed with it or not. Whether I could 16 identifiy with it or not. 17 I like to believe that I did my very dead 18 level best to represent the interests of African American, 19 Hispanic communities in that district. I certainly worked 20 as closely as humanly possible with them. We all know that 21 when you get to that legislative process, you do have to 22 make decisions what is good for everybody and the guy in the 23 next legislative district as well, but you are entitled to 24 your input as an individual through that legislative process 25 that we call representative democracy.

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Page 127 1 I wanted to ensure that we had it. It was 2 pointed out to me a number of times during the course of 3 that that those Republican residents of the silk stocking 4 west side also had to barter their votes in that particular 5 case to agree on the white male democrat that was most 6 friendly or least offensive to them, and that if we got 7 single member districts that we were going to elect more 8 Republicans to the House because out of 19 House members 9 from Harris County at that point in time, up until the 10 election where I was elected on the west side of a seven 11 member district, there was one Republican House 12 representative from Harris County. His name was Bill 13 Archer. He was a successor to the first Republican. He was 14 the first Republican House member. He went on to succeed in 15 that particular congressional district. It was George 16 Bush's, the elder, George H. W. Bush, it was his 17 congressional district that succeeded to. In a 18 particular election when I was elected they were a little 19 more organized because out of the seven seats only one of 20 those Democrats was reelected. Fellow named Jack Hogg. 21 Served for many more years in the House and Senate. The 22 rest were all Republicans. 23 We went into that session and one of the big 24 issues that we had to deal with of course in 1971 was 25 redistricting. That particular session a group emerged

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Page 128 1 called the Dirty 30. Most of the folks in this room won't 2 remember them either. They weren't all Democrats. Out of 3 the 19 Republicans in the 150 member House at that time, 4 eleven of them were on the Dirty 30, but the rest, the other 5 19 were Democrats. I was one of them. And the way I got to 6 be a member of the dirty 30 had to do with the way the House 7 ran itself. The integrity of the process, which at that 8 time was very abusive, very heavy handed, very 9 authoritarian, and the redistricting issue. 10 The establishment, if you will, of the House 11 at that time was conservative Democrat. There were no 12 Republicans. Even Speaker Craddick was not on the Speaker's 13 team at that time. He was a member of the Dirty 30. I hope 14 he remembers those lessons as time moves on. 15 We were going to attempt to break the quorum 16 so that the House redistricting bill could not be voted on. 17 Unfortunately, we talked too much and word got out. And the 18 day that we were going to bolt we checked in that morning. 19 We attended the morning session. We intended to leave at 20 the noon recess. There were Texas Department of Public 21 Safety officers stationed six feet apart around the floor 22 wearing their badges, and their guns, and their uniforms to 23 keep us from leaving. Soon as we got there the Speaker put 24 a call on the House and locked the doors. Only when Sonny 25 Jones, a Republican House member from Houston took the back

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Page 129 1 mikes, "Mr. Speaker, parliamentary inquiry." Our speaker 2 responds, "State your inquiry, Mr. Jones." "Mr. Speaker, 3 are these armed guards, these people with the badges and 4 guns around the House floor here, are they here to protect 5 us from the people or are they here to protect the people 6 from us?" Brought the House down. Speaker removed the DPS 7 officers from the floor and had them stationed on the 8 outside of the locked doors. 9 Ultimately since we were shutting down the 10 business of the House and there were other things to deal 11 with, we agreed not to attempt another quorum break, and 12 things proceeded fine. I heard somebody over there say 13 good. It worked out well in that particular instance. 14 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Speaker -- Mr. 15 Chairman? 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam. 17 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Can I ask for 18 clarification? Mr. Gammage, you don't mean to suggest, do 19 you, that speaker Craddick was a part of a group of 20 legislators in 1971 that attempted unsuccessfully to break a 21 quorum on redistricting? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, that's what we were going 23 to do. By the end of the session when that came up we were 24 getting there. We were getting as many as 65 votes by that 25 time instead of our original 30, and we had the numbers to

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Page 130 1 do it. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf has 3 a question for you. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: They didn't go to 5 Oklahoma, did they? 6 THE WITNESS: We never got out the door, Mr. 7 Grusendorf. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Judge, Congressman, 9 Representative, whatever title you have. 10 THE WITNESS: Bob will do. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have got about 12 300 more witnesses there. 13 THE WITNESS: I will move on. There are only 14 two or three points I want to make and I will make them very 15 briefly. My point is there was precedent for what was done, 16 and it was done also over in the Senate by the Killer Bees 17 in 1979, and they succeeded, and it's -- breaking a quorum 18 is part of the legislative process. It's as old as the 19 process itself. It predates the birth of this country, so I 20 won't belabor that issue. 21 My point is that there were a number of us. 22 It had nothing to do with political party or partisanship in 23 the process. It had to do with the integrity of the 24 process. We wanted true representation of communities of 25 interest that were disenfranchised effectively who had to

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Page 131 1 use surrogates or intermediaries to have their 2 representation in that process and their voice in that 3 process. 4 Representative democracy is by definition 5 representative and people are entitled to representation 6 from the smallest -- the smallest possible districts. From 7 the smallest geographic areas that encompass and incorporate 8 their community of interest, whether it's ethnic, whether 9 it's economic, whether it has to do with the business or 10 industry of that area. Agriculture, or industry, labor, or 11 corporate executive management types. African American, 12 Hispanic, they are entitled to have their representation, 13 their voice in the process, agree with them or not, and Lord 14 knows I have my differences with Republicans and with the 15 Republican party, and I did at that time, but we worked in 16 concert with one another to try to do what is right for 17 everybody, and we effectively did it. 18 We couldn't stop that Bill. They came out 19 with four fives and a four member district for Harris 20 County. The legislative Bill was enacted. They cut Dallas 21 and El Paso and some of the others up into smaller districts 22 I believe, but they were still multi-member districts that 23 diluted folks in communities of interest, so we had to go to 24 court when it was over with. 25 Lo and behold the federal court said we were

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Page 132 1 right and all of those areas -- actually we went to court to 2 bust that redistricting Bill. They said we were right, that 3 it was wrong. There was still time on that particular 4 occasion for the legislative redistricting board to deal 5 with the issue of restricting and they came out with single 6 member districts for Harris county. Smaller districts for 7 the other major urban areas that year and then single member 8 districts for everybody in the year following. They phased 9 it in. There wasn't time to draw those little lines. 10 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. 11 Chairman, is this a filibuster? 12 THE WITNESS: Not a filibuster. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't know. 14 Could you help us with limiting... 15 THE WITNESS: I will be happy to 16 Mr. Chairman. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Could you help us 18 here? I am sure there is some want to hear it, and I'm sure 19 that some don't, and I have made an informal request and 20 pled the testimony, not including the questions from 21 whoever, to keep it from three to five minutes. I would 22 appreciate that your conclusion be at least three to five 23 minutes. 24 THE WITNESS: I will move on. I don't know 25 how many of you have read the latest case from the United

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Page 133 1 States Supreme Court -- 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We're happy to read 3 it into the record. 4 THE WITNESS: -- having to do with 5 redistricting -- having to do with Congressional 6 redistricting, Georgia against Ashcroft. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yeah, we read it in 8 the newspapers, sir. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, here is the case and I 10 hope you do read it. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Have the clerk come 12 down and pick it up. 13 THE WITNESS: I hope you do read it, 14 Mr. Chairman, because it deals with things like 15 retrogressive redistricting which violates certain 16 principles that the court has articulated, and this is the 17 Supreme Court that sits in Washington today. That opinion 18 came out two days ago, so it's the freshest law you have. 19 They confirmed that you cannot destroy communities of 20 interest. That you cannot pack districts. That if there is 21 an existing minority opportunity district, and that doesn't 22 mean that it elects a minority, but that it can elect a 23 minority if it so chooses. If there are minority 24 opportunity districts, you cannot dilute them or pack them. 25 They have to remain.

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Page 134 1 Mr. Chairman, this is the same Supreme Court 2 that in 2001 when a three judge panel redrew the House lines 3 for the state -- congressional lines for the State of Texas, 4 it is the same Supreme Court that denied review and said you 5 did a fine job. That you followed the criteria and it needs 6 to remain in place. 7 There are two north Texas districts that you 8 are dealing with. District 30 occupied by Eddie Bernice 9 Johnson and District 24 occupied by Martin Frost. Both of 10 those are minority opportunity districts. You cannot dilute 11 them and you cannot pack them without encountering the rath 12 of that same Supreme Court that spoke two days ago. 13 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. No questions? 14 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Chairman, I would 15 like to ask a question of Mr. Gammage, please. 16 Mr. Gammage -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon. 18 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you. 19 Mr. Gammage, I appreciated the story that may have been 20 longer than some of the people appreciated about what was 21 going on in 1970 and '71. That was the year I was in high 22 school. I followed the activities of the Dirty 30 then. I 23 think one of the points that you were trying to make, I just 24 want to make sure it's clear for the record, is in 1970 25 people were so thoroughly disenfranchised in this state that

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Page 135 1 there was only one African American in the Texas House of 2 Representatives. There was only one woman in the Texas 3 House of Representatives and there was only one Republican 4 from Houston. 5 The question I want to ask you is about the 6 difficulty that some people are having in understanding -- 7 THE WITNESS: Forgive me, I want to correct 8 you on one thing. Will Lee, Jim Irving, Sonny Jones were 9 Republicans, they had already served one term in the House. 10 I apologize, I made a misstatement a while ago. There were 11 like three or four from the west side district. 12 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: The point of your 13 analogy is that at that time with these at large districts 14 it was an aggregate issue. And every argument that I have 15 heard presented today in defense of redistricting at this 16 time is to say we are going to take the aggregate vote of 17 the next election and justify that aggregate vote as an 18 excuse for disenfranchising, I would suggest not only 19 Hispanics and African Americans, but women as well. I want 20 to make sure since the Republican County Chair of Dallas 21 County couldn't explain aggregate. Would you, for the 22 record, explain the concept of aggregate? 23 THE WITNESS: I can only respond to that 24 question in one way, sir, and I recall the spirit of the 25 American revolution. You recall the dissected snake,

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Page 136 1 "United we stand, divided we fall." "We will all hang 2 together, we will hang separately." "Divide and conquer." 3 That's what aggregate means by definition in this particular 4 plan. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, 6 Mr. Gammage. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Tim Hoy. 8 TIMOTHY HOY 9 Good afternoon. My name -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Tim Hoy is here for 11 the Bill. For redistricting. 12 THE WITNESS: My name is Tim Hoy. I am the 13 Sate Republican Executive Committeeman from Senate District 14 9. I live in Denton County, Texas. With regards to 15 Congressional redistricting it must do three things: Pass 16 Justice Department preclearance under the Voting Rights Act, 17 preserve communities of interest, and taken as a whole 18 fairly reflect the voting patterns of the State of Texas 19 within a reasonable margin of error. Our present 20 Congressional map fails on two of those three counts. 21 The three Judge panel was forced to do what 22 the 77th Legislature was unable to do, and in their ruling 23 they admonished them for it. They did a don't rock the boat 24 mandated interim step. Make no mistake about the current 25 map, it is intended as an intermim map. The interim map

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Page 137 1 preserves the distortions of the 1991 map. For example, the 2 city of McKinney in Collin County is divided into three 3 Congressional Districts. the city of Carrollton is divided 4 into two. The city of Dallas is placed in five different 5 districts. The present map also does not reflect the voting 6 patterns of the State of Texas. While 56 percent of Texas 7 voters in 2002 voted for Republican Congressional 8 candidates, only 15 of 32 Congressmen or 47 percent are 9 Republican. Most reputable polling or market research would 10 be considered unreasonable and unreliable when greater than 11 a four or five percentage margin of error. Nine percent is 12 off the charts. 13 Fortunately, we have a better plan. The 14 Crabb, King map passed out of the House Restricting 15 Committee passes all of these tests. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow 17 Mr. Hoy to continue his testimony. 18 THE WITNESS: It maximizes the voting 19 strength of protected groups under the Voting Rights Act and 20 the 1991 Chisom vs. Roemer ruling by the Supreme Court. 21 State wide it will allow three new majority/minority 22 districts and will allow minority areas in south Dallas and 23 Oak Cliff to be united under one representative. 24 It does a far better job of preserving 25 communities of interest. The city of Dallas is larger than

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Page 138 1 one Congressional District, and the city of Fort Worth is 2 mostly in one district. The only other cities under 400,000 3 that are split in the metroplex are Lewisville and Irving. 4 Irving is reduced from a three way to a two away split. HB 5 3398 preserves communities of interest. Do these changes 6 make entrenched incumbents upset? Of course they do, but 7 public office is a privilege and an honor, not a lifetime 8 lordship. 9 In 1991 in Denton County we had a situation 10 where 54 percent of the county was in one JP and constable 11 district, kind of like the situation Mr. Gammage just 12 described. We had three Republican JP's elected by 13 70 percent of the county and four Democrats elected by 14 30 percent of the population. A young freshman precinct 15 chair drew a new map that balanced the populations of the 16 districts and complied with the Voting Rights Act. I was 17 that young precinct chair. I am sure it circumvented the 18 story that Mr. Gammage just described. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Gammage told us 20 a very long story. I don't remember anybody commenting 21 about Mr. Gammage's story. Pleas allow Mr. Hoy to tell his 22 story. Just because you don't agree with his story, would 23 you please allow him to tell his story? 24 Mr. Hoy, we would appreciate as I said to 25 Mr. Gammage.

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Page 139 1 THE WITNESS: Okay, Mr. Gammage told the 2 story about his multiple number of districts and we had a 3 situation like that in Denton County. Young freshman 4 precinct chair looked at the law and drew a new map that 5 balanced the population of the districts and complied with 6 the Voting Rights Act. I was that young precinct chair, and 7 like Mr. Gammage I am sure was told many times, I was told 8 you can't do that. In fact, I remember one Justice of the 9 Peace telling me exactly that. Well, we did it then and we 10 must do it now. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Has Denton County 12 ever redistricted? We had an earlier witness that said 13 redistricting never takes place at any level, and I was 14 wondering in districts in Denton County's history, that has 15 happened? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, it happened at least every 17 ten years. At the time the city incumbents did not want to 18 do it and we forced them to do it. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: My question was has 20 Denton County ever realigned their boundaries? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, they have. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 23 Members, do you have any questions of Mr. Hoy? 24 And they did it as a response to the fear of 25 the Voters Rights Act?

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Page 140 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, they did. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, very 3 much. Rita Owens is here against the Bill. Rita Owens 4 here? Rita Owens is not here. She is against the Bill. 5 Bob Stewart is here for the Bill. I'm sorry, it's a 6 chairman's habit. Is for the redistricting. So I will just 7 say "for" and when I say "for" that means they are for the 8 legislature doing redistricting. Apologize for the lingo. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Stewart has 10 some comments he would like to have read into the record. 11 We will read Mr. -- we will put Mr. Stewart's comments in 12 the record. Patricia Quested, Q-U-E-S-T-E-D, against 13 redistricting. Did not testify. And I said Rita Owens, 14 didn't I? Rita Owens. Okay, did not testify. William 15 Garcia on Woodfield in Fort Worth. Against doing testimony. 16 Against doing redistricting. They are mixed in now after 17 lunch, after 2:00 o'clock, whatever, after some point they 18 got mixed in with the rest of them and we are trying to take 19 them as they came in. There is something on the back of 20 that paper there. That will be put in the record. Every 21 one of these documents will be put in the record and he is 22 against. 23 Mr. Stewart, Bob Stewart is for. Bobby Lee 24 Brown. Bobby Lee Brown, Haslet, Texas. Is that Mr. Brown? 25 Mr. Brown, you did not check whether you were

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Page 141 1 for, against, or neutral on the Bill so I will let you when 2 you come down say who you are, and who you represent, and 3 whether you are for, against, or neutral on the Bill. 4 After that will be Adabelle Rodriquez, 5 against. Yes, sir. 6 BOBBY BROWN 7 Mr. Chairman, my name is Bobby Brown. I am against 8 redistricting. I am a City Councilman of Haslet and have 9 been for ten years. I have served both with the Republicans 10 or Democrats. I don't care whether you are a Republican or 11 Democrat, when you are on the Council you are there to serve 12 the people, and I hope you are also. I am a veteran, and I 13 also represent thousands of retirees in the State of Texas, 14 and I am a representative of the Communication Workers of 15 America. 16 With that, one of the reasons that I am against 17 redistricting is economics. Out in my area it is partially 18 the town itself is in Denton County and in Tarrant County. 19 Economics is the whole thing. I can tell you for sure all 20 of my representatives are Republicans. I work well with 21 them. They work well with me. Whenever it comes up 22 election time I may be trying to get them defeated but they 23 know that before time, so there is no nothing wrong with 24 there, but my Representatives or for the State of Texas and 25 for the people, as I am.

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Page 142 1 Martin Frost is one of the people here that 2 can bring more things to the State of Texas and this area 3 than anyone else. He has the seniority in the House of 4 Representatives. Bernice Johnson is the same thing. We 5 have a bad, bad problem here in economics as we do 6 throughout the world, especially the United States. We have 7 the American Airlines fixing to make up their mind whether 8 they are going to keep a maintenance hangar here or 9 someplace else. This right here Martin Frost is going to 10 have a whole lot to do with that. 11 Martin Frost brought in something for the 12 veterans out here where I can have a cemetery be put into 13 the ground out there where I wasn't fighting or anything 14 else, but at least he got the thing there. You know, we 15 represent and we vote for each one of you up there. And 16 it's our thought and hopeful that you will be representing 17 each us. Now here you are three years ago this county and 18 the state, the courts and everything else come up here and 19 they redistrict this because nobody else could sit down and 20 make sure what it was. Haslet set with this son of a gun. 21 All of these people that -- I had a bunch of people like I 22 stated I was in Houston this week, and we had a conference 23 there with the Presidents of all of clubs that I represent, 24 and all of them are not Democrats. Some of them -- most of 25 them are democrats, part of them are Republicans. Their

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Page 143 1 statement is to me, and this is what I brought from that, is 2 no matter whether you are a Democrat or Republican we have a 3 problem with the elderly out here. They work with me. I 4 know them. They call my name. I call their name. They 5 know my numbers. I know their numbers. That's what it's 6 all about. 7 You're talking about redistricting this whole 8 thing and goofing up the whole thing. Let's leave this 9 thing for ten years. Let's live together as a family for 10 that length of time and forget about cutting things all to 11 pieces again. Thank you. 12 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Am I on? Thank you. 13 Tell me if you would, please, you are from Haslet? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Which is currently in 16 the 12th District? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: is your 19 Congressman? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sure is. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: And you spoke on 22 behalf of Martin Frost? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Yes. Tell me just 25 in -- I am not as familiar with the surrounding areas of the

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Page 144 1 metroplex. Tell me where Haslet is. 2 THE WITNESS: Haslet is north of Fort Worth. 3 If you know where Alliance Airport is, it's in part of the 4 Haslet city limit. 5 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: And earlier today we 6 had testimony from another city councilman. 7 THE WITNESS: Lynnda McLoy. 8 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Lynnda McLoy. 9 THE WITNESS: We sit side by side on the city 10 council. She's a Republican and I am a Democrat. We work 11 great for the city. 12 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Great. The city 13 council has not taken an action or passed a Resolution? 14 THE WITNESS: No, they did not. I missed the 15 last city council because I was in Houston on this right 16 here. The reason I did not put anything on my sheet that I 17 was a city councilman so I could be already testified and 18 gone home or somewhere else because I didn't know that was a 19 proper thing to do. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Sure. And she 21 represented to the Committee she would like to see the city 22 of Haslet kept whole. Would that be your wish as well? 23 THE WITNESS: I would like to have things 24 like this right here. The city -- I don't have any problem 25 with it. I have been active in politics probably for 40

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Page 145 1 years, and very active in it. Worked and contributed funds 2 and everything else. Do I contribute to the Republicans? 3 Well, don't tell anybody, but, yes, I do that too. 4 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: It would be your 5 desire do see Haslet not divided? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't care whether it's 7 divided. We been living with it ever since I have been on 8 the city council. 9 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: It's divided now into 10 two Congressional Districts? 11 THE WITNESS: We are three. 12 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: You are in three 13 Congressional Districts? 14 THE WITNESS: Not congressional. I am 15 talking about precincts. I'm sorry, Granger is it. Vicki 16 Truitt is my Senator -- I mean Representative, and Senator 17 Jane Nelson is my Senator, and they are all good people. 18 They know where I stand and they know I know where they 19 stand. We are all out there to work on everything for the 20 city and for the county and get roads and everything else. 21 We don't have any problem like that. I don't want them all 22 cut up so they are gone or anything. 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So it doesn't matter 24 to you whether Haslet has one or two congressmen? 25 THE WITNESS: I don't care what we got.

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Page 146 1 Really and truly, only thing I want is it left exactly like 2 it is now. If you can bring back, I will even 3 take him. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Domingo Garcia 5 here? Domingo Garcia is here for the Bill. He represents 6 the Oak Cliff Town Hall Democrats. He is for redistricting. 7 He has checked for. He has checked for. I don't have any 8 reason to not read it right. 9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I talked to him 10 yesterday. You need to talk to him yourself. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Adabelle Rodriquez. 12 Adable Rodriquez, Cockrell Hill, a city counsel member, 13 against. Sharon Albertson from Plano, Texas. Sharon 14 Albertson is Immediate Past President, Golden Corridor 15 Republican Club and the Women's Club. She is for doing 16 redistricting. Did not testify. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ma'am, I'm going 18 through these as fast as I can go. And the witnesses I am 19 sure are testifying as fast as they can testify, and these 20 are all voters. I am assuming they are voters, they 21 wouldn't be this interested in the process. Dean Olson is 22 against the redistricting process. Revisiting 23 redistricting. Mr. Olson, Dean Olson. Marvin King, 24 Addison, against. Is Mr. King here? Against. Not 25 testifying. Stephen -- I'm sorry, Nancy McFarland, social

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Page 147 1 worker, against, from Arlington. Want to be registered 2 against redistricting. Beatrice Johnson would like to be 3 registered against. Has comments on the back that want to 4 be entered in. Holly McFarland, against with an explanation 5 point. From Fort Worth, Stephen Hillier. Mr. Hillier is 6 from Irving and is for redistricting. For redoing or 7 reopening up the redistricting. 8 STEPHEN HILLIER 9 Thank you for this opportunity, Mr. Marchant. I am 10 President of the Irving Republican Club. We have about 140 11 members. We are for the redistricting and I can speak for 12 them. The thing that I would like to suggest though is that 13 you do, and we have heard it several times today, protect 14 Martin Frost and Eddie Bernice Johnson, and probably three 15 or four other Democrats that are in the state and I think we 16 will put to rest a whole lot of the turmoil that we have got 17 here rather than upsetting everybody and everything. But I 18 would like to see it congested -- I mean condensed to 19 instead of all of these gerrymandered outlying districts 20 that are there, I would think if we would protect those that 21 are the most adamant and once that seem to be the most 22 hostile, then I think we can get on with our redistricting 23 and certainly serve the people of Texas as they ought to be 24 received, and we do need some help in getting the 25 Congressional Districts right. Thank you.

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Page 148 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 2 Mr. Barry Sprous. Barry Sprous will not testify but is 3 against redistricting. Albert Simpson. Barbara Simpson. 4 Barbara Simpson is from Austin. Represents herself. 5 Against. 6 BARBARA SIMPSON 7 That's fine. Like I said my name is Barbara Simpson. I am 8 now currently from Austin but I have had the great good 9 fortune to live in many parts of the State of Texas and you 10 have the great misfortune to have to listen to me talk about 11 all of them, because you have done things that I don't 12 really understand. In regards to the Congressional 13 Districts for all of them. Like I said, I started out in 14 Greenville, Texas and the thing that I don't really 15 understand that you have done there, the voters there seem 16 perfectly happy with . We also have been 17 perfectly happy for a really long time to be separated into 18 a separate district from Rockwall, which it's really hard to 19 understand how they have a community of interest in a 20 district that goes all the way over to the border with 21 , when you are talking about Rockwall, which is one 22 of the richest and most Caucasian counties in the State of 23 Texas and you are putting it into a district with some other 24 counties that are very rural. Some of them very, very 25 heavily minority, but they don't really have a whole lot in

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Page 149 1 common with the people in Rockwall. It doesn't make a lot

2 of sense to me, but it's not the thing I am most het up

3 about.

4 The next thing that happened to when I went to -- started

5 my undergraduate education at Texas Tech University in

6 Lubbock, and I really don't understand the changes to the

7 districts in West Texas but I plan to talk about that in a

8 little more detail later. I really don't understand what

9 people on the border with New Mexico have in common when it

10 comes to a community of interest with people who are living

11 only a couple of counties west of Fort Worth. Doesn't make

12 a lot of sense to me when there are districts now that run

13 north and south in West Texas where it really seems to make

14 a whole lot of sense. I don't get it.

15 I moved back east again after that to finish my education

16 at what was then East Texas State University, and as a

17 social work undergraduate I had to do a couple of

18 internships. One of which was with the Texoma Council of

19 Governments which covers Cook, Grayson and Fannin County in

20 far North Texas. These counties under the current map are

21 in a single Congressional District all together. They do a

22 lot of their planning regionally together with those three

23 counties. Under the new map they are going to be part of

24 three different Congressional Districts, and that doesn't

25 make a whole lot of sense to me, because they obviously

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Page 150 1 consider themselves a common community or they wouldn't have

2 a common counsel of government to do all of their economic

3 development planning.

4 Like I said, these things just kind of confuse me a little

5 bit, and I would like for someone to explain to me how the

6 community of interest gets served in it, but what really

7 upsets me is I live in Austin now. And I really like living

8 in Austin, and I really like my Congressional Representative

9 from Austin, , and a whole lot of people in

10 Austin agree with me because we keep sending him back to

11 Congress.

12 What I don't understand is the new map is going to

13 divide Austin up into four different Congressional

14 Districts. I can't figure out which one I am going to be

15 in. I am either going to be in a district that encompasses

16 part of north Austin and runs all the way to Houston, or I'm

17 going to be in one that encompasses part of north Austin and

18 runs 300 miles down to the border with Mexico. Okay, now

19 I'm a pretty diversified Texan and I consider myself to have

20 a community of interest with pretty much everybody in Texas.

21 I don't really think that I should be voting along with

22 people in Houston for a congressman or people down in the

23 Valley. It doesn't make any sense to me. And the only

24 thing I can figure out is that you-all don't like Austin.

25 You don't approve of the person that we keep sending and you

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Page 151 1 want to disenfranchise us, and it's the only logical

2 conclusion I can come to.

3 I think sometimes if you thought it would work, you would

4 put the Capitol on roller skates and roll it out of town in

5 the middle of the night because you just don't like us. You

6 know, you have this kind of hearing, it gets in my head.

7 All right. Now, what was it I wanted to say? Oh, I

8 remember. Okay, this thing about the percentage of people

9 who voted Republican in the last election. I think that's a

10 little bit disingenuous. Okay, I will say it. I am a life

11 long Democrat and a really, really, strong one, but the

12 candidates were not all real experienced and turn out was

13 really low even for you-all, okay? And saying 58 percent of

14 the people voted for Republicans in the last election

15 doesn't mean a lot when less than 25 percent of the

16 registered voters voted. Thank you.

17 The very last thing that I wanted to say is that just

18 like I said I am from deep East Texas and I can't do

19 anything without quoting my mother. My mother always told

20 me the true measure of a person is how they behave when they

21 win I think the Republicans in this House and Senate are

22 being really poor winners here. For some reason you-all

23 think that the majority you-all get of the very small

24 minority of the voters gives you the right to have

25 absolutely everything your way, and I think it's really

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Page 152 1 petty. I think a couple of speakers before me had a really 2 good point. You got the House, you got the Senate, you got 3 a President. You have got a Supreme Court -- well, most of 4 the time, and it's like you just can't cope with not having 5 everything, and it's really unattractive you-all. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 7 testimony. 8 THE WITNESS: I haven't had this much fun 9 since the hogs ate my little brother. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Paula Stockard. 11 Ms. Stockard was for doing redistricting. She was from 12 Tarrant County. Josh Whitehouse is against redistricting. 13 Josh Whitehouse. Joe Pitts. He is here. I am gong to read 14 a couple ahead of time. Mr. Joe Pitts. Mr. Mike Kennedy. 15 I will do the best I can to keep speaking up. 16 JOSH WHITEHOUSE 17 My name is Josh. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I appreciate all 19 your help. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't really represent 21 anybody except for me, my parents and my immediate family. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 23 THE WITNESS: Well, this is really 24 disgusting. I don't agree with what you are doing. I 25 currently am at UT in Austin and my district is not going to

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Page 153 1 be an Austin district. It's going to be one of the ones 2 that goes in the strange snake like form from 3 and that just doesn't make any sense to me. Austin, it was 4 a community of interest. It had its own congressman. Now 5 it has been split up and there is no logical reason I can 6 see for this other than to split up a democratic district. 7 That's all I want to say. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, Josh. 9 Joe Pitts. Mike Kennedy. Joe Pitts, P-I-T-T-S, and Mike 10 Kennedy. Mr. Pitts is against. He did not testify. Mike 11 Kennedy is for redistricting. 12 Are you Mr. Pitts? 13 THE WITNESS: No, I am Mr. Kennedy. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: After Mr. Kennedy 15 will be Roberta Flores and then Bert Williams from Fort 16 Worth. Okay, Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Kennedy is for revisiting 17 redistricting. 18 MIKE KENNEDY 19 My name is Mike Kennedy. I am President of the Tarrant 20 County Young Republicans. I happen to live in Martin 21 Frost's current district, and I want everybody to look at 22 that map over there and tell me if you think that that 23 represents the special community interest. I don't think 24 so. Those are arbitrary lines that have been drawn on a 25 map. Those are 13 years old.

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Page 154 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please refrain 2 from discussing -- Mr. Kennedy, if you will direct your 3 comments to us maybe they won't feel like they have to 4 address theirs to you. Mr. Kennedy, I understand -- we will 5 just give you a little time here. You need some water or 6 anything? 7 THE WITNESS: No. I may cough occasionally. 8 These lines are arbitrarily drawn on the map by whatever 9 political party happens to be in power in order for us to 10 have a representative government. They are never going to 11 be what everybody wants. They are not going to be what I 12 want. They are not going to be what these people want. 13 Never. Because everybody can always tweak it a little bit 14 better than what they are. However, those lines that we are 15 dealing with right now are 13 years old. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Your contention is 17 the last time a legislature -- 18 THE WITNESS: My contention is the 19 legislature did not address the issue when it was brought 20 before them. They conceded to the court to make those 21 decisions for them. It is the job of the legislature to 22 look at those lines and determine where they need to be, not 23 the court. It is my contention at this time -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please let 25 Mr. Kennedy testify.

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Page 155 1 THE WITNESS: You need to look and decide 2 what those new lines are going to be. I don't necessarily 3 think it's a bad thing if Tarrant county is divided into 4 five Congressional Districts or four Congressional 5 Districts, because there are four representatives who have 6 Tarrant County in mind when they go to the U.S. House. 7 Now, it may just be a portion their district, 8 but it's a big enough portion that they are going to have to 9 look at what the needs of that community are. There is no 10 elected official that is going to be happy with how lines 11 are drawn because that requires more work of them. They 12 have to go back and find out who their constituents are now 13 and what is it that makes them happy. And frankly, a lot of 14 elected officials both Republican and Democrat are not into 15 grass roots campaigning anymore. They would rather throw 16 money at it, do mailers, and appear on television. I think 17 it's very important that the legislative body itself decides 18 where those lines are. And that's all I have to say. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Members, you have 20 any questions? 21 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Sir, I would like to 22 ask you a question. 23 THE WITNESS: Certainly. 24 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: It has been said here 25 today repeatedly that the legislature did not do its job in

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Page 156 1 drawing a map. Are you aware that a Democratic House and 2 Republican House did pass a redistricting map in the House? 3 And are you not aware that it was the Republican majority 4 Senate that did not pass the map from the Senate which then 5 caused the map to be done by three majority Republican 6 statewide office holders. Are you not aware of that? 7 THE WITNESS: First of all, I am not sure 8 what your question is and I would contend that some of what 9 you told me is incorrect. 10 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Let me clarify it. 11 Are you aware that the last legislative session we had a 12 majority of Democrats but we also had Republicans. Here is 13 the question. Are you aware that a redistricting map did 14 pass out of the Texas House done by the Texas Legislature? 15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Let me clarify. 16 Are you talking about a Congressional redistricting plan? 17 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: I know the map I am 18 talking about, Representative Grusendorf, and I want you to 19 let the guy answer. 20 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I am asking you 21 to clarify it. Are you talking about a Congressional? 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Kennedy, do you 23 understand the question? 24 THE WITNESS: Actually, no, I don't. I would 25 like her to clarify what map she's talking about.

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Page 157 1 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Everybody keeps 2 talking about the fact that the Legislature did nothing with 3 the map. We didn't even have a Congressional map, and 4 Representative Grusendorf let me ask you, where should that 5 Congressional map you talking about, where should it have 6 began? 7 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: If I remember 8 right in the 2001 session the Redistricting Committee passed 9 a map but it never came out of the House relative to 10 Congressional redistricting. 11 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: The congressional map 12 did not? 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: We never passed a 14 congressional redistricting map. These hearings today are 15 about Congressional redistircting. That's why I asked for 16 clarification. We never passed a congressional 17 redistricting plan out of the House of Representatives in 18 2001. 19 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Thank you. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is this question 22 for Mr. Kennedy? 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yeah, I was going to 24 ask him, but let me just maybe help clarify a point that I 25 think Ms. Hodge is making.

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Page 158 1 In two years ago in the Texas House we did 2 our work. We passed a state House redistricting plan, okay? 3 The state Senate on the other hand decided not to move on 4 it, and the state Senate was a majority of Republicans, and 5 the Governor of course was Republican so they decided to 6 shirk their responsibility. We passed a state House plan. 7 I will answer your questions too. The point 8 is we could get it done, and that's why a lot of us felt and 9 were prepared to go into a special session immediately after 10 that session to finish the Congressional redistricting 11 proposals. The House Redistricting Committee was chaired by 12 a Republican and the House committee after months -- a year 13 as Chairman I think said at one point after months of field 14 hearings allowing people in meaningful ways to participate 15 in the process, then actually passed a congressional 16 redistricting map out of committee, but then the session 17 ended. 18 So we were prepared, just as we had passed a 19 state House plan but the Republican Senate chose just to 20 kill, we were prepared to come back and try to work together 21 in a special session. And a lot of us encouraged a lot of 22 newspapers -- I think Ms. McNamara quoted newspapers from 23 two years ago where they urged Governor Perry to call a 24 special session. It didn't happen. 25 But the point is if you want to make it in

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Page 159 1 terms of partisan, the Democratic House passed a state House 2 plan which showed we could, and we were willing to come into 3 session two years ago and not send it to the courts. But 4 the Republicans insisted -- 5 THE WITNESS: Representative Raymond, this is 6 all partisan. This is all politics, but I would like to 7 know what your question is. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are Young 9 Republicans; is that right? 10 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I want to commend 12 you for endorsing during this session a position that I took 13 which was contrary to what Mr. Perry supported, and Speaker 14 Craddick supported, and that is tuition deregulation. You 15 are aware that you-all took that position, right? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And you supported 18 that I suppose? 19 THE WITNESS: I didn't support it at the 20 time. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I want to ask you, I 22 commend the Young Republicans for having the courage to 23 stand against Rick Perry when he was wrong on that one, and 24 I want to ask you, maybe you will answer it honestly, and I 25 hope you will, do you think that Governor Perry should have

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Page 160 1 not waited two years to call a special session, but he 2 should have called a special session two years ago so we 3 would have taken this up and never gotten to the Courts? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you for being 6 honest. 7 THE WITNESS: But at the same time, 8 Representative Raymond, I think that you had time to address 9 those issues while you were in session and it was not 10 necessary to have a special session. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I agree with you. 12 Let me tell you something. I agree with you even though I 13 disagree that it should have been taken up. We had time for 14 five months in January, February, March, April and May to 15 have hearings like this all over the state and I kept 16 asking, and I kept asking, and they said no. 17 THE WITNESS: But, Mr. Raymond, they don't 18 get the work done. The work is done in Austin when you are 19 in session. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me tell you what 21 the law says because it matters, but the U.S. 22 Constitution -- what the Voting Rights Act says, you allow 23 people to have meaningful access when you are going to 24 change lines, that whether or not you and I like it, are 25 legal. After months of hearings around the state. After

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Page 161 1 months of hearings in federal court where thousands of 2 people were allowed the meaningful access to the process, 3 this is what we have got over there, and it's legal. And I 4 have to make this point. The same Supreme Court that said 5 George Bush should be President said this is legal for ten 6 years. 7 THE WITNESS: I don't care what the Supreme 8 Court said. I want my representatives to make that 9 decision, not the Supreme Court. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Let Mr. Kennedy 11 testify. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I just wanted him to 13 know I did advocate. Boy, I appreciate your opposition to 14 tuition -- 15 THE WITNESS: Even a Democrat has to be right 16 once in awhile, Representative Raymond. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I want you to know 18 that I did advocate that if we were going to open up this 19 process, all right? If we were going to open up this 20 process, we should have done this for five months when we 21 had the time to do it, and the reason we went to Ardmore is 22 because these guys never let the public come in except for 23 two days late at night and that was wrong. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You can respond to 25 that comment, sir.

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Page 162 1 THE WITNESS: Representative Raymond, if it 2 was important enough for anyone, they would be there even 3 though it is Mother's Day weekend. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That's not true. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At some point could 6 you let -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay, you want to 8 say something else or do you want me to respond? 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You are badgering 10 the witness. 11 THE WITNESS: You are an elected official so 12 I guess you have the floor. If you would like to make 13 another comment, that's fine. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I want to respond to 15 what you said, and I will stop here. I will stop here. I 16 hope you understand that it is difficult for people in 17 Laredo that I represent, 240 miles away from the Capitol, to 18 go up to the Capitol. It's not that easy. That's why for 19 30 years around the State of Texas we have a process that 20 was authorized and precleared by the Justice Department that 21 you have a process of going around the state and having 22 field hearings and not saying, "You know what, you got two 23 days and if you really care, come on up to Austin". And 24 these guys joke, "It's such a beautiful Capitol, why don't 25 they come up here?" They joked about it, and that was

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Page 163 1 wrong. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Let me say I 3 never -- I have never joked about that, and when he says 4 "you guys" I don't know who he is referring to. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay, I apologize. 6 Mr. Pitts, Mr. Grusendorf, Mr. Crabb, Mr -- as I recall, 7 King. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, maybe you never did it. I 8 take it back. You did, Mr. Grusendorf. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I never heard that 10 kind of interchange. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's part of the 12 record. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't have any additional 14 comments unless the Committee has some. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you for your 17 honesty. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. Mr. 19 Bert Williams. 20 BERT WILLIAMS 21 Mr. Chairman, and to this august body, and to those of you 22 here. It's been a long day. As a matter of fact, you have 23 kind of messed up my golf game today and I will tell you 24 now. But it's interesting to be here. I am going to be 25 here about three minutes, three and-a-half minutes. I have

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Page 164 1 to say this: As a former council person and airport

2 chairman for the city of Fort Worth for ten years, and then

3 Chairman of the DFW International Airport Board, Chairman of

4 ACI North America, and being involved along with one of the

5 Governor's committees to work with and go with the

6 committees that dealt with the Rehabilitation Committee.

7 It was interesting to be able to come here today and

8 to listen to people talk about something that I think is

9 very, very important, and yet I think one of the fundamental

10 things that I am missing out of all of this is the fact of

11 what has happened to the rights of the people, and what has

12 happened to the right for me to be represented. I guess that

13 to me is the most important thing that I am not hearing. I

14 am hearing numbers. But I am also hearing the fact that in

15 the city of Fort Worth we have about 560,000 people. In

16 that group we have 27 percent Hispanics and 22 percent

17 blacks out of the city of Fort Worth, and the 24th District

18 in which I have been in all my life, it seems like we have a

19 problem there.

20 Out of the numbers we have there, we have a district that

21 is 30 percent Hispanic and 22 percent black. Now, that

22 gives us representation, but what I am now seeing from a map

23 that I received today, and I had not even seen this map

24 before, what is happening with this map here, it has taken

25 me -- and I live in south east Fort Worth. It has taken me

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Page 165 1 in south east Fort Worth in a minority community, and it has

2 taken me and taken me out to Colleyville. Out to Hurst

3 Bedford. Out there to the areas where -- and I go out there

4 because I play golf in all those places out there, Timber

5 Run and the rest of them. And you are talking about people

6 that have homes like 250, $300 million-dollar homes and all

7 of that. Whereas, where I am we don't have those kind of

8 homes. But the point is that you also have taken the number

9 of people that we had in your district, and there is a

10 little small area where you have gone in there which is up

11 above Rosedale and it comes down. Now, how you can get

12 someone to draw a map like this and take out the people that

13 has been in this district, and then take the few of us

14 that's left and then take us and take us all the way up to

15 Grapevine Colleyville, Coppel. Now, you know who lives in

16 those areas. So what you are really telling me is that my

17 vote doesn't count anymore. It doesn't count.

18 I will be honest with you. It's not the fact of who

19 represents me because I vote across the board. I vote for

20 the person. I do not vote for a party. I vote for the

21 person. But when you tell me that I cannot get someone that

22 I can feel close to, and what's happening, and Kay Granger

23 and I are very good friend. Martin Frost and I, very good

24 friends. And so the point is that what you have here though

25 is the fact that I know how I can except out of Martin. I

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Page 166 1 also know what I can except out of Kay Granger. We work and

2 she is good.

3 But I also know that there is a difference, and what is

4 happening now and is happening throughout our population,

5 throughout the world, what is really happening is I think

6 there are four things we are dealing with here. We are

7 dealing with hatred. We are dealing with greed. We are

8 dealing with power seeking. And we are dealing with liars.

9 And that to me is so very, very important when it comes down

10 to the fact that all of a sudden you have got to start

11 dividing up a district that we have been in for such a long

12 time, and what I have heard today, and again I was here at

13 8:30 this morning. I called my wife about five times. She

14 want to know, "What are you doing? You don't even like

15 politics anymore." I said, "No, I don't, but I am having a

16 rebirth."

17 The things that I am seeing is a fact that it's not -- and

18 I was glad to hear the guy a moment ago say -- talk about

19 what happened in the '70's. And also we also have to

20 remember what happened in '79. This is not a precedent that

21 was taken this year, but the thing that really to me is a

22 precedent is where you have someone from Washington coming

23 to Texas telling them what they better do. And to me that's

24 what has happened. It has come to us that we have to have

25 this redistricting. Why do we have to have it now? What's

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Page 167 1 so important about that other than the fact that you are 2 trying the get stacked books all across the board. That's 3 what the whole thing is all about. 4 When we talk about this, and to me it goes 5 back against some of the things that we have done in the 6 past like redistricting and in the sense of setting up 7 single member districts. We have to do that in Fort Worth 8 so we can have representation. I think that is what the 9 Voting Act is all about, making sure that everyone has 10 representation, and I think that's all you are hearing 11 today, is that you are hearing people talking about don't 12 split my district up. Don't split my town up. As the lady 13 was talking about 1100 people in Haslet. Now you mean to 14 tell me that you are going to go and divide that up into 15 two? Why can't all of those people belong to the same 16 district? It just doesn't make sense of what I am seeing 17 and hearing here. I am very opposed to that map. And I am 18 for that map, because of the simple reason, and you will 19 find out all over Texas you are going to find that there are 20 pockets of people who have been represented, and they can 21 actually have -- we can have an affect on who is elected 22 from our Congressional District. We can have an impact on 23 that. But if you divide us up like what you are talking 24 about here and put us into the district that is going to go 25 all the way up to Colleyville on the other side of Dallas

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Page 168 1 and back over Coppell, Bedford and all those, then we have a 2 problem having an affect on someone who is going to 3 represent us. 4 Right now I can get on the telephone and I 5 can call and we can get things done. But you let something 6 happen like this, and a lot of the things that we have been 7 able to have people to contact, we will not be able to 8 contact those people. We will not be able to get things 9 done. I have a problem. I am against this. I know it's 10 politics. People say it's always been politics, but when is 11 it that we are going to stop politicking and start doing 12 things that are right for the people. That's what it is all 13 about. 14 You know, one of the other things, I know 15 this is probably going to be bad but it's the way I feel. I 16 feel this way. I really wish that somehow we could have 17 situations where we have term limitations, because term 18 limitations -- I was on the counsel for ten years and I know 19 how it finally was getting to be. You stop being proactive 20 and you start being reactive, and the thing also is this, 21 that somehow when you get in the legislative body then you 22 really kind of forget how the rest of the world lives, 23 because it's a way that you live in politics that is totally 24 different than the way that people actually live on a 25 day-to-bay basis, and even to the point of being able to

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Page 169 1 have term limitations. Go back out, see how people live and 2 get reelected. That's fine. But I am thinking really that 3 what we are doing today, and I hope that when you go back 4 you are hearing the people and I hope it means something, 5 but having been in politics, personally, I feel like this is 6 just a waste of time. It's just a process that you have to 7 go through to say that you did, but really the votes are 8 probably already there. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 10 testimony. 11 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Chairman, can I 12 ask the former councilman a couple of questions? 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes. 14 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you. Mr. 15 Williams, you testified I think that you spent most of your 16 adult lifetime in south east Fort Worth; is that correct? 17 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 18 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Before you or your 19 predecessors on the City Council were elected, the city of 20 Fort Worth elected counsel representation by at large up 21 until 1977; is that correct? 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 23 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: And you were one of 24 those people that was involved in the struggle to get single 25 member districts in Fort Worth, and what happened as a

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Page 170 1 result of moving from at large or aggregate representation 2 to single member district representation, have we had two 3 African Americans on the council ever since that time? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. When we went to the 5 single districts, out of the nine people on the counsel you 6 have two blacks, one Hispanic, and it looks like coming up 7 this time you are going to have three Hispanics and two 8 blacks. That's because you have single member districts, 9 because that's the way the population is going. You take 10 any of our cities you will find that the population of the 11 Hispanics has just exploded, and now as it is in the United 12 States from what I understand they are now the major 13 minority of people that you have. 14 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: So for purposes of 15 anybody that wants to look at this record, your experience 16 when the aggregate vote was counted, in fact, there was only 17 one African American on the city council, and now that we 18 have single member districts there are two what you can 19 easily describe as opportunity districts, and, the fact, 20 that both have always been elected by African Americans; is 21 that correct? 22 THE WITNESS: That's very true. 23 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: And in the 24 redistricting process for city, they were very careful to 25 make sure that there was no retrogression for the African

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Page 171 1 American population even though Fort Worth has grown so much 2 the African American population is not as large a percentage 3 of the population now as it was when you first established 4 single member districts; is that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 6 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Williams, did you 7 represent the Poly area when you were on the city council? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 9 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Are you aware, Mr. 10 Williams, that now four of the precincts in the Poly area 11 have been put into the legislative district that I represent 12 because rather than being majority African American, they 13 are now a majority Hispanic. Were you aware of that? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was. 15 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Are you aware that 16 this plan proposes to put these precincts in Poly which were 17 a majority African American, and now a majority Hispanic, 18 into a Congressional District that is dominated by Denton 19 County? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. As a matter of fact, 21 couple of weeks ago we had a Representative come to the 22 church and talk to us about that, and he talked about that. 23 It was a lot of concern because of the fact of -- my church 24 is on the north side, which is a portion of that Poly area 25 you are talking about, and it was of great concern that they

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Page 172 1 were going to be in a district that went all the way to 2 Denton. 3 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: So it seems a little 4 strange to you that what once was in an area that you 5 represented in south east Fort Worth, they would now be 6 proposing to put up into a Congressional District dominated 7 by Denton; is that correct? 8 THE WITNESS: There is now way in the world 9 you are going the get that kind of representation for those 10 people in Poly with the people from Denton. 11 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you for your 12 testimony. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Alonzo. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Sir, I just want to 15 ask you a few questions about the process. I heard you 16 testify that as far as you see it whatever we do is like a 17 foregone collusion because the votes are already decided as 18 far as what is going to happen; is that correct? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: I just want to assure 21 you that I think it's important that you come here and you 22 testify and express how you feel about it. And as you have 23 heard all day people coming here to express that they do not 24 agree with redistricting. Have you gotten that kind of 25 indication from the people that have been here?

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Page 173 1 THE WITNESS: From 9:00 o'clock this morning 2 until five -- eight minutes to 6:00. 3 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Overwhelmingly you 4 would say and you have heard the Chairman take down the 5 names of who is for and against. You would say that 6 overwhelmingly the people that are here and have come to 7 testify have been against; is that right? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would definitely say 9 that and I would like to add that of those that are for it 10 are primarily elected positions or they have a committee 11 chair. Haven't just heard just an average person come and 12 speak for that map. I have heard chair persons. People who 13 have positions and therefore they have been the ones that 14 have been recommending for the map. 15 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: I'm sorry to 16 interrupt. Would it be correct to say that what you have 17 heard out in the community out in the city of Fort Worth and 18 places that you have been, that people do not want 19 redistricting anymore. Is that what -- would you say that? 20 THE WITNESS: That's a true assessment of 21 what we hear everywhere. At our churches and every place 22 else. 23 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: What you have also 24 seen and people have said, many, many newspapers and 25 editorials are against redistricting, is that right?

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Page 174 1 THE WITNESS: I know that the Star Telegram 2 came out the other day against it. 3 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: And would you also 4 say that what you have seen, and you have testified as far 5 as working as a councilman, and you heard other councilmen 6 were working in a bipartisan fashion, that whether you are a 7 Republican or Democratic state rep, you have heard for years 8 that we go down there and we try to do the people's 9 business, and whether it's for Fort Worth or Dallas, and we 10 work together. Would you safely say that's what happens in 11 Austin up until this point? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would say up until maybe 13 four years ago. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: And wouldn't you also 15 say that what you have heard is that while these people work 16 in Austin in a bipartisan fashion on issues, including 17 redistricting, now we have this, you know, sentiment coming 18 from Washington in the name of Tom Delay trying to make 19 Austin a more partisanship environment is that correct? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Well, sir, I just 22 want to tell you and I want to tell everybody that I think 23 it's important that we are here and we testify, because in 24 the final analysis, regardless of what happens, I think the 25 people of Texas should know that many, many people came out

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Page 175 1 and overwhelmingly testified against redistricting because 2 they felt it had already been done and shouldn't be done 3 again. In the end I can tell you this, my feeling as you 4 mentioned, is the people, the voters are going to decide, 5 and they are going to tell us whether it was right or wrong. 6 Thank you. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Dorothy Pascher or 9 Paschers, for redoing the maps or redistricting. Did not 10 testify. 11 Ask Mr. Grusendorf if he will chair the 12 meeting for a few minutes so I can go to the rest room. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Kay Polk. 14 Priscilla Brown. Marjorie Ford. Who are you? 15 MARJORIE FORD 16 I am here. I am Marjorie Ford and I am for redistricting, 17 but I think most of the salient points have just been made. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: You just 19 testified. You have anything else to say? 20 THE WITNESS: I think all of the points have 21 been made on redistricting. The one point that I would like 22 to make since Mr. Raymond kept bringing it up is about 23 minorities being strong and being given opportunities in the 24 Republican party. I think it's very interesting that there 25 were three very important statewide races won by African

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Page 176 1 Americans who had to run in the primary and win the primary, 2 and then win statewide against a strong Democrat opposition, 3 and that is Michael Williams, Railroad Commissioner, 4 Jefferson -- Wallace Jefferson who was first appointed. 5 Then he came back and ran in the primary and then ran in the 6 general election. And Dale Wainwright. I sincerely believe 7 that -- for the Texas Supreme Court. The last two were for 8 the Texas Supreme Court. I sincerely believe that had those 9 men been Democrats it would have been promoted all over the 10 world and in headline form. As it is, you hardly heard 11 about it in Texas and nowhere else. And so I just wanted to 12 correct the record what Mr. Raymond was speaking of Javier 13 Rodriguez who is one of finest men I ever met in my life. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And what does that 15 have to do with redistricting? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, he brought it up. He is 17 one of the finest men I ever met in my life and I am very 18 upset he didn't win the primary, but it had to do with the 19 ways of campaigning. Not the fact that he was Hispanic. 20 And the three African Americans that did win very strongly 21 are some of the most superb men I have ever met in my life. 22 I want you to know that, Mr. Raymond. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You want me to know 24 what, ma'am? 25 THE WITNESS: You are the one that kept

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Page 177 1 bringing up the fact of minority having opportunities in the 2 Republican party. We have got them and we have got a whole 3 list in Dallas County. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Any questions of 5 Ms.Ford? 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yes, I would like to 7 respond. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Representative 9 Raymond, do you have a question? 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I will have a 11 question but she also directed a comment at me that I would 12 like to respond to. May I, Mr. Chairman? 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please proceed. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you. 15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Would appreciate 16 a question though. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Would appreciate the 18 ability for me to respond when a witness talks to me. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please proceed, 20 Mr. Raymond. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you, so much, 22 Mr. Grusendorf. 23 To follow up your comments that were directed 24 to me, when you talk about the Republican party offering 25 minorities opportunities, the difference between the

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Page 178 1 Democratic party offering minorities opportunities and the 2 Republicans offering minorities opportunities is that you 3 take two or three people in the whole state and you prop 4 them up in a position and you say we are helping minorities. 5 The reason why, it isn't about what my name 6 is or what I look like. Helping minorities, that is helping 7 everybody in the state. It's about helping everybody in the 8 state. There are minority opportunity districts that are 9 represented by Anglos. All right, I will give you one. 10 in Houston, Texas. He represents a district that 11 is a district that a Hispanic could win, and yet even though 12 there are Hispanics enough that they could influence the 13 outcome of the election, they choose to elect this Anglo man 14 who has been Anglo all his life because he represents and 15 works for opportunities for all of the minorities in his 16 district, not just one, and not just two, and not just 17 three. 18 In my case however, I have a Congressman who 19 is Hispanic, and he is a Republican, so he has an 20 opportunity -- 21 THE WITNESS: Bonilla. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That's right, 23 Bonilla. He has an opportunity as a Hispanic, as an 24 individual to enjoy the niceties that come with being a 25 member of Congress. However, he consistently and

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Page 179 1 overwhelmingly votes against things that would help all 2 minorities in the district, and that's why minorities in my 3 district overwhelmingly vote against him, because it's not 4 about the fact that he is as brown as I am, or that his name 5 is . It's about allowing minorities 6 opportunities. The masses. Just as you, the masses have 7 enjoyed opportunities though the years, and with reference 8 to the two or three candidates that you talked about, the 9 down ballot candidates, I found it interesting that the one 10 that was appointed who was Hispanic, whose name is Javier 11 Rodriquez, could not get the nomination even though Governor 12 Perry actively and strongly supported him. Did you support 13 him? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. I endorsed him 15 formally. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And he could not get 17 the nomination in your party, but the other two guys who are 18 African American, you didn't see a whole lot of literature 19 with their picture on it. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, you did. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, you didn't. 22 THE WITNESS: I passed it out by the 23 thousands. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But in any event, it 25 gets back to it doesn't matter what they look like, and it

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Page 180 1 doesn't matter about helping two or three minorities 2 propping them up. It's about offering minority 3 opportunities in the community. All throughout the 4 community. That's what it's about. I just wanted to make 5 sure you understood the difference. 6 THE WITNESS: I understand you. I understand 7 you but you do not understand me. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, I understand 9 you. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so. 11 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Now that we have 12 a mutual misunderstanding. Thank you, very much, Ms. Ford. 13 Neal Katz for the Plaintiff. For 14 redistricting. Did not testify. Jerry Irwood. Against the 15 plan. Irwood here? Jimmy Defoot or Defoor. Is he here? 16 Jimmy, looks like D-E-F-F-O-R or D-E-F-F-O-T from Fort 17 Worth. Defoort, is he here? Did not testify. 18 Fernando Flores. They are both against. 19 Against as well. Fernando here? Did not testify. Angelina 20 Stockard, for the Bill. For redistricting. Is Angelina 21 Stockard from Fort Worth here? Michael Martinez from Fort 22 Worth. Michael Martinez here? 23 MR. MARTINEZ: Yes. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Against 25 redistricting. Did testify.

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Page 181 1 MICHAEL MARTINEZ 2 Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Members. Unfortunately -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please state your 4 name for the record. 5 THE WITNESS: Mike Martinez, Fort Worth, 6 Texas. I currently live in Constitutional District 12, Kay 7 Granger. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Proceed, sir. 9 THE WITNESS: I am a member of the Citizens 10 of Communities of Interest Redistricting Committee out of 11 Fort Worth in Tarrant County. I am not formally a speaker 12 for them today. I was not appointed. Unfortunately, I have 13 been out of loop for the last several months. We weren't 14 expecting this to come about, you know, the last second 15 decision by the Governor here, but I do -- I am a member and 16 I have been very, very active in regard to the redistricting 17 process at all levels from the congressional down through 18 the JP levels in Fort Worth and in Tarrant County. 19 In addition, I also was a member -- former 20 member of a lobby that lobbied the Texas House on an issue, 21 as well as a former member of Representative Hodge's staff 22 during her freshman term. I was her aide down there so I am 23 very, very familiar with the processes involved, and 24 unfortunately most of what we are doing today is really 25 going to be falling upon deaf ears, and, yes, Representative

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Page 182 1 Alonzo and Representative Raymond here have made some great 2 points in regards to the fact we have to go through this 3 process and state our opinions, and that is what I am doing 4 today. 5 You know, like the former councilman said, I 6 could have played golf today and I would like to have done 7 that, but I am opposed 100 percent in what we are doing. I 8 am disappointed in our Governor. I am disappointed in the 9 Republican leadership at all levels in the legislature, and 10 for us to be here today is a waste of time, money, energy. 11 I believe as some other folks have already stated that 12 unfortunately the decisions in the House have already been 13 made, and so what I suggest to each and everybody that is 14 still here is that you really write, call, and e-mail your 15 Senators because that is where the real battle is going to 16 be this time around. It's going to be in the Senate, and 17 hopefully we can influence them to not even bring this up on 18 the floor of the Senate and just kill the issue there. 19 Finally, I do want to say I am a proud Texan. 20 I am very, very proud of the way the legislature had -- 21 although I am young, I'm a historian at heart. I am very, 22 very proud of the way the legislature has already acted in a 23 bipartisan way. Especially of recent. You know, we can go 24 back when it was all Democrats back when, but of recent 25 times it's very, very bipartisan, and unfortunately what I

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Page 183 1 see today is really, really disappointing to me. But very 2 proud Texan, born and bred here, but what I see in the 3 legislature today disappoints me. The Governor very, very 4 much disappoints me, but I thank you very much. I oppose it 5 100 percent. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Any questions? 7 Thank you, Mr. Martinez. Thanks for being here. 8 Myra Whitlock. Myra here? Brent Martin. 9 Jack Holcomb. Myra Whitlock, against. Brent Martin, 10 against. John Holcomb, for. Is John Holcomb here? Jean 11 Ball, against. After Jean we are going to have Michael 12 Medlano. It looks like M-E-D-L-A-N-O. Then Michael Atwood. 13 I am just going to read a couple of names, Melba McDowell. 14 Roberto Flores. That's just a couple of names down though 15 there, so if they are here, please be prepared. 16 JEAN BALL 17 Mr. Chairman. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please identify 19 yourself for the record. 20 THE WITNESS: My name is Jean Ball. I live 21 at 4840 Worth Street, Dallas, Texas. 22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I'm sorry, your 23 name again? 24 THE WITNESS: Jean Ball, B-A-L-L. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Find you again.

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Page 184 1 You're okay. Thank you, Jean. 2 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I am here to give 3 you a little bit of a history lesson because I think some of 4 you need it. But I won't go into -- I mean I was there with 5 the Killer Bees and the Dirty 30, and I won't go into that, 6 you have been well versed. 7 My history lesson is going to be about winner 8 take all mentality. We have since I have been -- I was born 9 in Dallas Texas. Since I have been involved in politics 10 that has always been a struggle against the winner take all 11 mentality. And we Democrats -- oh, yeah, let's just get it 12 straight right now. I'm a Democrat. I know you're 13 Republicans. I know exactly why you are doing what you are 14 doing and I know why I am doing what I am doing. We 15 Democrats used to have a winner take all mentality as well 16 in our party rules, which I don't remember exactly when it 17 went away, but it was called unit rule. I don't know about 18 your history and I don't know about whether the Republicans 19 in the last five or six years have gotten rid of that, but 20 if I was going to guess, I would say you still have unit 21 rules. Unit rules means winner takes all. 22 My history lesson to you is the reason -- or 23 maybe it will be a question. Do you know why we have a Bill 24 of Rights? I would like to hear the explanation for anyone 25 sitting on this panel who believes that you ought to open up

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Page 185 1 this disgusting thing again. Oh, well, you know, I am just 2 saying do you know why we have a Bill of Rights? 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Anybody on the 4 panel wish to answer the question on why we have a Bill of 5 Rights? 6 THE WITNESS: It's directed only at you 7 Republicans, okay? The reason I am asking you is I don't 8 think you do know why you have a Bill of Rights. Why we 9 have the Bill of Rights in this country because you still 10 operate under winner take all mentality, and that is wrong, 11 and our Fathers knew it was wrong when they did the Bill of 12 Rights. The Bill of Rights is these are inalienable rights. 13 You cannot step on these things even if the majority wants 14 to. You cannot stop people from assembly. You cannot -- I 15 know you probably know the words in the Bill of Rights. I 16 am just saying to you why do you think we have a Bill of 17 Rights? It's because you cannot have winner take all in a 18 free society. 19 Now, do I like that map? No. It is 20 disgusting enough. You already got a lot in that one. 21 Before that map I had Eddie Bernice Johnson as my 22 Congresswoman. I now have . Does that thrill 23 me? Before that map I had Harriet Airehart as my state 24 representative. Do you think after that map I am thrilled? 25 No. But the Republicans did what they wanted to do with

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Page 186 1 that map, and it went through the process, and it went 2 through -- it went through the test and that's what we have 3 got and that's what we are pleased with. 4 We don't like it, but that's okay. We will 5 deal with that ten years from now. That map -- yeah, you're 6 right, eight years from now. That map is so blatant about 7 what you are trying to do. So don't feed the spoiled little 8 kids that just keep getting greedier, and greedier, and 9 greedier about taking everything you want. I want you to do 10 what Nancy Reagan said. I want you to go back to your 11 Governor and I want you to tell him to go with you to Tom 12 Delay and say, "Just say no". 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think you had 14 called out Adabelle Rodriguez, and I know she is in here. 15 She may have been out in the bathroom when you called her. 16 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I think I checked 17 her off as not testifying. Is that one of the names that I 18 called earlier? Can we come back to it when we get back to 19 the next -- let's have Mark work through the names that I 20 did. I gave some other names of people that were called. 21 If you will remind me I called her name already. I know 22 that stack is over there. I have another one. Will you 23 find that one for me? Clerk will try to find that one in a 24 moment. Call the next one. Mike, M-E-D-L-A-N-O, Fort 25 Worth, against. Not here. Melba McDowell, for. Not here.

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Page 187 1 For the Bill or for redistricting. Michael Atwood, against

2 redistricting. Not here. Don Shipe for redistricting.

3 Okay, Don, come forward. We are trying to find that other

4 form from one for elected officials. Please proceed,

5 Mr. Shipe. State your name for the record.

6 DON SHIPE

7 My name is Don Shipe and I served as Vice-Chairman of the

8 Tarrant County Republican party during the Reagan era. I

9 guess I started back in politics in 1960 or so, or '64 with

10 the -- these are premature gray hairs. The premature -- I

11 mean I started with Barry Goldwater and we -- I had three

12 daughters born in 1960, and I have said for many years that

13 the only thing three good things that came out of the

14 '60's's were my daughters. We went downhill in morale. We

15 went downhill in every area that you can think of, but I

16 have learned in my old age -- I am learning that -- now, we

17 had one other thing that came out of the '60's and that is

18 the birth of conservatism in Texas. When I started we had

19 one Congressman, Jim Collins in Dallas. He was the only

20 Republican Congressman from Texas.

21 Through the years we watched us grow from a -- from a

22 liberal Democratic state to a conservative Republican state,

23 and, you know, there is a bunch of things that have been

24 said about fairness and unfairness. Let me give you an

25 example. The last time that I gave input to a group like

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Page 188 1 this was the House Budget Committee chaired by Jim Wright,

2 and Phil Graham was still a very conservative Democrat, but

3 very conservative, and they went around the country and

4 announced that they wanted input just like we are giving to

5 you-all today. Man, I want Mary and Jane and Mary and Joe

6 Average to give us input so that we can get a feel of how to

7 work the House Budget Committee.

8 So there was a guy named Jim Jones -- a Congressman named

9 Jim Jones up in Tulsa, and we did our homework and found out

10 what they were doing. We couldn't understand why the

11 conservatives were not -- or Republicans were not having any

12 input to these district meetings. So we found out that what

13 they did was -- and this was under Jim Wright's era, they

14 wouldn't tell the city who they were going to -- where they

15 were going to be when, but they would tell the Democrats and

16 then they would load up. They didn't do like you-all are

17 doing, and I commend you for taking the pluses and the

18 minuses so you at least get both sides of the story, and I

19 commend you for that.

20 But what they did is they just took first come, first serve

21 and said, "Okay, we are going to have the meeting on

22 Thursday and I am sorry, but all of the "-- to the

23 Republicans, "I'm sorry all of the spots are filled. You

24 can't give your input." So we found out what they were

25 going to do and we loaded. We loaded when they came to Fort

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Page 189 1 Worth. We called every Republican in Tarrant County and we

2 hardly had any seats left, and they come in and they say,

3 Golly, man, Jim Wright said, "We can't have a meeting before

4 these people. They are all loaded, so there is going to be

5 a hour and-a-half delay." So he loads up three -- calls up

6 Greyhound bus and goes and gets three loads of people who he

7 doesn't even know, but they are primarily from areas that he

8 knew their MOS, and they come in and that's (To audience

9 member) -- that's not true.

10 That is a perfect -- any way I had input, and I said to a

11 politician, and this is politics. This is not anything but

12 politics. For 75 years the Democrats have had control of

13 the Texas legislature, and they have always and always will

14 gerrymander. The best way to describe that map is two

15 octopi making love. I mean and it's just been ridiculous.

16 That was drawn by Democrats. That was drawn by the

17 Democrats for the last 75 years. Now, the Republicans are

18 the ones that have the responsibility -- the legislature has

19 the responsibility for drawing the map. We finally have the

20 people that elected these people for drawing it, and they

21 are going to draw it.

22 Now, Tom Delay who has been crucified by a bunch of

23 people, he ain't no dummy. If you think -- if you think

24 that he is not going to run and do his homework and be sure

25 that that map will pass court muster, you have got another

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Page 190 1 think coming. So what I am saying to you is that -- 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you like for 3 me to enforce the five minute rule, sir? 4 Does the audience like the five minute rule 5 enforced? I am going to enforce it but we won't impose it 6 on you. 7 THE WITNESS: All right. But anyway, what my 8 point is, is that this is the first time that the Democrats 9 have not had the opportunity to draw the map. We now have 10 an opportunity to because we have gotten our people out. 11 Thank goodness we learned something from the '60's about how 12 unions organize to win elections, and now we out performed 13 them. We now have the votes to do it, and by golly we are 14 going to do it, and it's going to pass muster also. The 15 greatest travesty of injustice would be if the legislature 16 didn't have the guts to call the special election and do -- 17 and fulfill their primary responsibility. Okay, that's all 18 I have. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond has a 20 question and we won't be -- we will take a vote on any kind 21 of a deal. It's unfair to impose it on somebody in the 22 middle of their testimony. 23 THE WITNESS: I appreciate that. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have a -- will 25 have a vote of the Committee.

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Page 191 1 Ma'am, we don't take -- we can't take 2 questions from the audience. The questions have to come 3 from the panel members. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So let me just ask, 5 at the very end there you said we should have a special 6 session on this, right? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You think we should 9 have had it two years ago? You think the Governor should 10 have called it like the Chairman of the Young Republicans 11 from Tarrant County? 12 THE WITNESS: No. No, I don't. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You said -- 14 THE WITNESS: You are a good attorney. You 15 knew the answer before you asked the question. Go ahead, 16 what's your next question? 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, I am not an 18 attorney. I write for a sit com. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You said there were 21 only three good things that happened in the '60's. 22 THE WITNESS: My three daughters. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What are their 24 names? 25 THE WITNESS: Quinn, Emma Lee and Rebecca.

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Page 192 1 Two of them are Agglets and third one -- and I was from A&M. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are an Aggie? 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's not the only 4 reason I support Perry. I know you are surprised by that 5 but that's not the only reason I support Perry. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am not surprised. 7 THE WITNESS: Aggie grin. What's your next 8 question? 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you think the 10 Civil Rights Act was not a good thing. 11 THE WITNESS: No, I think it's a good thing. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So there were four 13 good things? 14 THE WITNESS: There was a terrible prejudice 15 in our society and we needed to rectify that, and we have 16 rectified it to a large degree, and we are continuing to 17 rectify it, and there is more freedom in this society 18 nowadays than there used to be back -- and I am not going to 19 give -- if you are leading up to giving somebody credit for 20 that, it ain't going to go to LBJ. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I'm sorry, are you 22 aware -- do you think the Voting Rights Act was a good 23 thing? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: This was in the

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Page 193 1 '60's by the way. 2 THE WITNESS: That's okay. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You didn't think 4 Medicare -- 5 THE WITNESS: I may change my mind. You 6 know, I have already added one after about 35 years. I've 7 always said only three good things, and I've said now, wait 8 a minute, that's correct. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Richard Raymond 10 getting you to change your mind. 11 THE WITNESS: Yep. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We need some kind 13 of a question, Mr. Raymond. Would you allow him to ask you 14 a question so you can respond? 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: There you go, tell 16 him what I am going to ask him. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Just so we can get 18 on down the road. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Did you think -- get 20 on down the road. 21 Did you think Medicare was a good thing? 22 THE WITNESS: Parts of Medicare was a good 23 thing, but only if we can afford it. I don't believe in 24 deficit spending and I don't believe in -- 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You need to write a

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Page 194 1 letter to George Bush. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, if we 3 could restrict this discussion to redistricting, please. We 4 have 300 plus people that registered. Could we please 5 confine the discussion to redistricting? 6 THE WITNESS: True conservatives do not 7 believe in deficit spending, period. Texas has an excellent 8 law that says that we are going to live within our budget, 9 and we would do well in Washington to have the same kind of 10 rule that we have in Texas. It will be balanced. It always 11 has been and it will be. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I agree with you. I 13 agree with you. 14 THE WITNESS: And I am glad you mentioned 15 Reagan. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please. 17 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Chairman, may 18 I make a comment? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond is 20 going to ask you a question, Mr. Shipe. You answer it and 21 we are going to go to Mr. Grusendorf for a question. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I just want you to 23 know there is one other great thing that happened in the 24 '60's, I was born. That probably won't be one of your 25 additions to the '60's. Thank you.

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Page 195 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf. 2 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I would just like 3 to thank Mr. Shipe for being here, and I would like to 4 inform you and the other members of this Committee I have 5 known Mr. Shipe since I guess about 1980 or late '70's. He 6 is as hard-core on the other side of the aisle as anyone you 7 have got here with the stickers on being bused in today. I 8 appreciate your being here but we need the cut it off. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I appreciate you for 10 having somewhat of an open mind. You came in here saying 11 there were only three good things happened in the '60's. 12 Now, we have changed your mind. Civil rights, Voting 13 Rights -- 14 THE WITNESS: Whoa, now. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I will name two or 16 three. That's good. 17 THE WITNESS: You are a good man. See 18 you-all around the campus. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Chairman, 20 would you recognize me for the motion? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What's the purpose 22 of your motion? 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I would like to 24 see whether the panel would like put our time limit in 25 place. I think we have got so many witnesses, if we don't I

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Page 196 1 don't think we will finish today. 2 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman? 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: This is going to be 4 a matter between -- in the subcommittee. 5 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Can I just make one 6 observation? 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You can make an 8 observation after this subcommitee takes -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I think that it 10 should remain because people that came from Waco, Texas were 11 here before 8:30 their bus arrived. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No one has done 13 anything to limit -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Only one of them has 15 testified. The testimony of my constituents. I would like 16 to have something to say about that. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are going to -- 18 I am going to entertain a motion from Mr. Grusendorf. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, before 20 you do that, can I just ask you? You know, Mr. Chairman, I 21 felt all along that if you had been Chairman of the full 22 committee that things would have been at least a little 23 better, and I still believe it. This thing has been closed 24 for five months. We had two days of hearings in May and 25 then this gets done, you split up the committee into three;

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Page 197 1 three cities in one day, three cities in another day. You 2 go until 6:30 and you are going to change the rules yet 3 again at the last minute. 4 I would ask you to use your judgement. If 5 you have a witness, help them along. I will try to help 6 them. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Divide the day up 8 into witness testimony, questions and comments from 9 nonmembers of the committee and public demonstrations, then 10 we basically spent about 60 percent on everything but the 11 witnesses. We are doing the best that we can, and I am 12 doing the the best I can in registering people, and we are 13 doing the best that we can. Anybody that was here at 8:30, 14 we are doing the best we can. 15 We are not going to deny anybody an 16 opportunity to speak. We advertised this hearing for 9:00 17 to 8:00 o'clock. We advertiseds a two hour lunch break. We 18 did not take that lunch break. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We advertise the 20 five minutes? We advertise the five minutes? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Sir? 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Did you advertise 23 the five minute limit? 24 THE WITNESS: I asked the witnesses to limit 25 their testimony to that. I requested it repeatly and

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Page 198 1 repeatedly, so I am going to entertain Mr. Grusendorf's 2 motion and we will vote on that motion. Mr. Duncan has 3 given his input. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, you 5 continue to change the process midstream and I am strongly 6 opposed. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What is midstream? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am asking you, 9 Mr. Chairman, I would rather trust your judgment that there 10 are going to be some witnesses that may go five and-a-half 11 minutes or six minutes. If they do, I won't ask questions. 12 I will do my part. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: It's on the 14 handout. He is pointing out it's on the handout. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: In my opinion 16 except for two or three witnesses today, the witnesses have 17 observed that rule. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Then why do we need 19 to take this vote? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It has been the 21 questions and comments, it's a little distracting. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Then what's the need 23 to take a vote like this if you don't think it's necessary? 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I asked the 25 audience. The audience responded they wanted that rule

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Page 199 1 enforced. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You asked the 3 audience if they wanted redistricting opened and and they 4 responded with a no. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, at 6 what point is it your feeling that the Committee should 7 adjourn? 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: When everybody has 9 testified. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The Committee 11 cannot -- could we establish at this point the point at 12 which the Committee will adjourn? 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I sat in Austin in a 14 hearing until 5:45 in the morning. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The Committee will 16 be adjourned at the discretion of the Chair. 17 The Chair is going to entertain a motion from 18 Mr. Grusendorf. 19 Representative Grusendorf, would you state 20 your motion? 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I move that we 22 limit the testimony to five minutes as noted in the handouts 23 we distributed earlier. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is there any 25 objection to the adoption?

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Page 200 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I object.

2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond objects

3 to adoption of the five minute rule. The subcommittee will

4 be taking a formal vote on this. That's why I have asked

5 the subcommittee. I know that Mr. Dunnam -- the Chair all

6 day has allowed public outbursts which in the Capitol is

7 never allowed, and I have allowed it all day, and I would

8 ask you, please, to allow this Committee to do its work. We

9 are going to take a vote on the Committee at this time to

10 limit testimony officially to five minutes total.

11 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Chairman.

12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett. I

13 guarantee that anybody that leaves their seat -- there is

14 plenty of seats now to be allowed in. If you will tell them

15 you are going out to the bathroom, you have a seat, it's not

16 going to be any problem.

17 UT Southwest has informed us they are

18 locating the closed circuit TV screen so they can put it in

19 an adjacent area for you. They're working on that at this

20 very moment; Mr. Webber just notified us of that.

21 We will proceed. Thank you.

22 Mr. Crain?

23 THE WITNESS:

24 NATE CRAIN

25 Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you very

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Page 201 1 much for giving me the opportunity to testify today. 2 I would like the say at the outset it is very 3 heartening to see this democratic process. So many people 4 are spending their Saturday in discussion of these issues 5 here today, both Democrat and Republican. 6 And I think it is very important to note that 7 drawing of new districts is not a one person or one party 8 issue. It is the absolute right of the legislature to take 9 a look. It's about representing the majority of Texans who 10 vote for Republican congressional candidates; it's about 11 creating new leadership opportunities for unrepresented 12 minorities. 13 As it's currently drawn, the map does not 14 reflect the voice of the people of Texas. The people of 15 Texas -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Could I ask the 17 microphone -- to keep my microphone on, please? 18 Go ahead, Mr. Crain. 19 THE WITNESS: The people of Texas spoke with 20 a loud and clear voice in the 2002 elections. 56 percent of 21 all Texans voted for congressional candidates. The 22 Democrats have long worked through the legislative process 23 to keep the voice of the Republicans not heard. Under a 24 fair redistricting plan, the people of Texas will have their 25 voices heard.

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Page 202 1 The federal court affirmed the responsibility 2 of the legislature to draw the map when they said that 3 creating additional minority Republican districts in 4 accordance with population and electoral changes since the 5 last census is a legislative decision, not a judicial one. 6 I would assert that the maps that the court 7 drew before the last congressional elections were simply 8 interim maps so we could conduct elections. It is the will 9 and responsibility of the legislature to address this issue, 10 and that is why we are here today and why this committee is 11 convened. 12 (Audience outburst.) 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow 14 Mr. Crain to testify. Please allow Mr. Crain to testify. 15 If everyone will please allow him to testify. 16 THE WITNESS: I would also like to point out, 17 the average Democrat won in contested head-to-head races of 18 a Republican versus a Democrat 62 with percent of the vote, 19 and average margin of victory was 25 points. The average 20 Republican during the last election cycle won with 21 68 percent of the vote, and an average margin of 38 points. 22 We don't need the current congressional lines 23 to, in fact, create super Republican districts. Thereby 24 artifically creating a large number of winnable Democrat 25 districts, and minimizing the number of GOP seats. This

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Page 203 1 gerrymandering should not been ignored and the Texas 2 legislature should take up this issue. 3 I think the most important message that comes 4 today is that the voice of the people should be heard, and 5 whether that's being here today in a legislation hearing -- 6 whether that's being here in a legislative hearing or 7 allowing their duly elected representatives in Austin, the 8 State House and State Senate to pass judgment on the 9 redistricting. That is the point of why we are here today 10 and that the democratic process. 11 As I said at the beginning of my remarks, I 12 am heartened to see democracy in action, the attendance of 13 our representatives and so many people, to state that the 14 process works and I look forward to seeing the outcome of 15 it. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Does anybody have 17 any questions of Mr. Crain? 18 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I didn't catch where 19 you are from. 20 THE WITNESS: Dallas County. 21 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: The Dallas County 22 Republican Chairman? My congressional district is home of 23 George W. Bush. It voted over 60 percent in the last 24 legislative cycle for Rick Perry for governor; it voted over 25 60 percent for Rylander and for Dewhurst and for Abbott and

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Page 204 1 for all of the judges, voted Republican, over 60 percent. 2 It's the 11th District on this map. What is wrong with that 3 district? 4 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I think it's a 5 matter of looking at this issue in the aggregate and looking 6 at the whole State of Texas by district. If you look 7 overwhelmingly 29 of the elected figures in Texas are 8 Republican, and if you look at the majority in the State 9 Senate and you look at the majority of the State House, they 10 are Republican. 11 It does not make sense, when you look at the 12 issue here, to see why we are still electing a majority of 13 Democrats here in the State of Texas. 14 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: So your complaint is 15 that it doesn't make sense that the people in my community 16 vote 60 percent for Rick Perry but vote to elect Chet 17 Edwards, that doesn't make sense to you and so you want to 18 take away their choice for congress? 19 THE WITNESS: Representative, no one is 20 taking away anyone's choice for Congress. In certain 21 respects, your constituents and the members of your district 22 that have sent you here to represent them, as I noted at the 23 outset of my testimony. 24 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: So -- I guess so that 25 you are going back to the issue that 56, or whatever the

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Page 205 1 number is, of the people who vote, cast a Republican ballot 2 as opposed to Democrat for congress, so therefore 56 percent 3 of the delegation should be Republican? 4 THE WITNESS: I think that the legislature 5 needs to take a look at and closely examine these issues and 6 make sure there's a majority of the seats that reflect the 7 votes of a majority of Texans. And a majority of Texans 8 during this last election cycle -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I am still trying to 10 gather what you believe is wrong with the majority of people 11 in the 11th Congressional District who overwhelmingly vote 12 Republican, choose to elect Chet Edwards, and you say that's 13 wrong in the aggregate because you-all don't have 56 percent 14 of the seats, Republican, in the Texas congressional 15 delegation. That's the bottom line, isn't it? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I would say it's the 17 bottom line. 18 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: It's my understanding 19 that over 30 percent of the Texas population is Hispanic. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 21 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Should we do that the 22 same? Should we then ask is the Republican party for 23 quotas? 24 I really want to know, because that's the 25 problem. The problem is the people in the 11th

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Page 206 1 Congressional District are interfering because they are 2 ticket splitters, they are interfering with your desire for 3 a quota in the Texas congressional delegation. 4 THE WITNESS: Representative, I think that 5 you are overstating; and certainly I do not -- are drawing a 6 conclusion by simply taking the will of the voters in Texas 7 and looking at their last election cycle, and looking at the 8 voice that they expressed, and in the numbers that are 9 expressed, and saying that that would lead to a quota 10 system, no one in the Republican party is for a quota 11 system. I don't know how you can draw a conclusion from 12 that. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Let him finish. 14 THE WITNESS: That's fine, Representative. 15 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: That's what we are 16 really getting down to, Mr. Stinholm, and I think that if we 17 look at any of the underlying numbers in Mr. Stinholm's 18 district, the people there overwhelmingly voted Republican, 19 up, down, sideways to the ballot, except when they come to 20 Mr. Stinholm's name and for some reason, I don't know why, 21 for some reason, they is choose to send him back to Congress 22 again and again and again. 23 And I just cannot appreciate that we have an 24 overwhelmingly Republican district, and because we have 25 independent people in the State of Texas and have had for

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Page 207 1 for 150 or more years that we are going to take away 2 Mr. Stinholm from that area, don't let those people have an 3 opportunity to send him back the Congress because its 4 doesn't meet the quota that you-all want. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, Representative, I guess 6 we are going to have to agree to disagree about that point. 7 I think it sets up a quota system. 8 We could spend a considerable amount of time 9 going circles around it. The bottom line, it does not 10 represent a quota system; it certainly represents the will 11 of Texan voters who spoke during the last elections. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Are there any 13 additional questions? 14 Mr. Vernon? 15 MR. VERNON: Chairman Crain, I don't know if 16 you were here the entire morning, the same line of questions 17 I offered before to the county judge who did not claim to be 18 representing the county but was recorded as being from the 19 county. 20 My question is about, do you sincerely 21 believe as you indicate in your testimony that this is about 22 counting the voters in year 2002 or is redistricting 23 supposed to be about counting the people that were counted 24 in the census tract? 25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman --

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Page 208 1 Mr. Representative, if it were my wish, everyone who was 2 eligible to vote would register to vote and participate in 3 the process. Unfortunately, the only way we can draw a 4 conclusion on this is to look at the votes that were cast 5 during the last election cycle. 6 MR. VERNON: That's not to the point of my 7 question. My question is do you understand what the law is? 8 Do you understand that the law says that we will do 9 redistricting based on census, not on -- 10 THE WITNESS: Representative, I am not an 11 attorney. I would not like to put forth (inaudible), but 12 what I would say, speaking to that -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Could we please 14 refrain from any profanity. The use of profanity, I would 15 hope we would avoid that. 16 THE WITNESS: I think the important thing 17 here is allow the voice of Texas voters to be heard. The 18 best benchmark that we have -- that we have is to look 19 towards the last electoral cycle and examine the voice of 20 the people. 21 MR. VERNON: Mr. Crain, are you testifying 22 under oath that you, as the Dallas County Republican 23 chairman, are not aware of the basic principles of 24 redistricting? 25 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I am not testifying to

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Page 209 1 that. 2 I am testifying that the majority of Texans 3 need to have their voice heard and I am also testifying that 4 a special session was called, and I am testifying that it is 5 the job of legislature to take forward and draw those lines 6 appropriately. 7 MR. VERNON: Mr. Crain, I'm sorry, I did not 8 hear the first part of your response, which I was hoping, 9 since I made three efforts now, that it would be responsive 10 to the basic fundamental question. 11 Do you or do you not understand what the 12 national law is with regard to redistricting which holds us 13 not to bew bothered to vote -- or who was eligible to vote 14 in last election, but whether the children that were counted 15 in my fine district and elderly in my district and the 16 citizens that are not allowed the vote for one reason or 17 another, those people are supposed to be counted, do you not 18 understand that? 19 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand your 20 question. And my point -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you allow him 22 to answer it, please? Please allow Mr. Crain to answer his 23 question. 24 THE WITNESS: My point speaks not to the 25 process of redistricting itself, and I am sure that everyone

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Page 210 1 here, that you are far more skilled at going through the 2 entire process, legislative process than probably the 3 majority of us. 4 My point is to put forth the message here 5 today that Republicans and the people of Texas who spoke in 6 an overwhelming voice in current districts do not reflect 7 that voice in the State. 8 MR. VERNON: Mr. Crain, since I cannot get an 9 answer that is responsive to that question, I want to go to 10 another question. 11 One, I think you introduced a very important 12 turn of phrase, people may not have heard. I think I heard 13 you say in your testimony that this should be regarded in 14 the aggregate. Now, if you understand what you just said, 15 what you are saying is you take the State, as a whole, and 16 look at the State in the aggregate. Do you not understand 17 that in the 1970's we got rid of multi-legislative districts 18 in urban counties so African-Americans and Hispanic could 19 have adequate access to representation? 20 THE WITNESS: Representative, it is my 21 understanding that the process is designed to allow you to 22 draw these lines in Austin and allow you to go forward. We 23 certainly are very mindful and very respectful of the need 24 to have all voices heard in Austin. 25 While I cannot speak specifically to history

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Page 211 1 and go through line-by-line with you as far as that is 2 concerned, what I can speak to is this: Is that the 3 districts that currently exist are not fair and do not 4 represent the voice of the people of Texas. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow 6 Mr. Crain to finish his testimony to Mr. Vernon's question. 7 THE WITNESS: I think I have answered. 8 MR. VERNON: Chairman, let me try it one more 9 time. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon, the 11 courtesy has been extended you to ask questions. Please, 12 you have asked it four times. He has tried to give you an 13 answer. 14 MR. VERNON: Actually, Mr. Chairman, I have 15 asked the first questions four times. I have moved on the 16 concept of in aggregate because I think it's important for 17 the court record to have it underlined that the Chairman of 18 the Republican party of Dallas County thinks that they 19 should be looked at in the aggregate as opposed to, I lived 20 through the process of the 1970s in Tarrant County. I was 21 working in the legislature in 1973 when we saw 22 African-Americans represented for the first time. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please ask -- 24 MR. VERNON: You do not understand the words 25 in aggregate, or should I go get a dictionary?

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Page 212 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: May I ask a 2 question on aggregate? Meaning, in effect, the map has on 3 the entire state. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Go ahead, 6 Mr. Crain. 7 THE WITNESS: I think that summarizes it 8 well, Mr. Chairman. 9 MR. VERNON: Okay, Mr. Crain, my last 10 question is concerning your assertion earlier in your 11 testimony that one of the reasons we would should do this is 12 to provide new leadership opportunities for minorities. I 13 would just like for you to elaborate on that concept. 14 You know, I am a student of history and I 15 can't recognize any Republican in post-World War II period 16 that has done anything to enhance leadership opportunities 17 for minorities. Name one or two for me. Sure, I think 18 that's important. 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Representative, the very 20 first person I can think of that has expanded the role of 21 minorities is throughout the State of Texas and throughout 22 our country is our current President of the United States. 23 (Audience outburst.) 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow 25 Mr. Crain to answer the question. Please allow Mr. Crain to

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Page 213 1 answer the question. Please allow Mr. Crain to answer the 2 question. 3 THE WITNESS: Representative, 4 notwithstanding -- also -- I would also point out that 5 Governor Perry was the first person to appoint an 6 African-American to the Texas Supreme Court out if Uvalde 7 County. And I speak to this county with the 2002 election 8 cycle, we had more African-Americans, more Hispanic and more 9 women running on our ballot here in Dallas County. And I 10 would like to know also -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Allow Mr. Crain to 12 give his answer, please, sir. 13 THE WITNESS: It's only elected official that 14 is a Asian-American here in Dallas County. We also have a 15 city council Asian-American. There are no Democrats in this 16 county that are elected. So if you look here in this 17 county, we are one of the most representative and diverse 18 counties as far as elected officials are concerned in the 19 State of Texas. 20 MR. VERNON: I will take the suggestion that 21 George Bush has been help to the minority community. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, 23 Mr. Crain. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Representative. I 25 appreciate the opportunity to visit with you today.

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Page 214 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Chairman Crain, 2 could I ask you a couple of questions, please? 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, we 4 have almost 300 more witnesses. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I would like to make 6 sure everyone -- I would like to have a wish everyone in 7 South Texas had a chance to testify. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time, in 9 this hearing going on in Laredo. We are trying to have a 10 hearing here and we would like to ask some questions 11 addressed to the Dallas area, this metropolitan area, as far 12 as in redistricting. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you, 14 Mr. Chairman. Let me ask you just a couple of basic 15 questions important for us to, I think, to establish. I 16 know Mr. Vernon tried, so... 17 Is it your belief, it's my understanding 18 and -- it is the law that when you when do a congressional 19 district that if you have, if you are five years old, you 20 can count them because it is based on number of people who 21 live there. Not the people who vote. You get that part, 22 right? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay. So then if 25 you get the part that it's the number of people, not the

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Page 215 1 number of people who vote, let me give you some information 2 that you may or may not know. Do you know that overall, 3 minority population of the State of Texas are much younger 4 age; that is, we have a lot of Hispanics and 5 African-Americans who aren't old enough to vote yet than 6 there are Anglos that are old enough to vote? 7 THE WITNESS: I will take your word for it. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And as a result of 9 that -- as a result of that -- as a result of that -- as a 10 result of that, then what happens, sometimes is when you 11 have got a district -- who is your Congressman? 12 THE WITNESS: Congressman Pete Sessions. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, it should have 14 been Congressman Kenny Marchant, but anyway... 15 So if you are in Pete Sessions' district and 16 you have more people who vote in part because more people 17 are maybe in your district, maybe more Anglos are old enough 18 to vote, right, your argument says that since there are more 19 people old enough to vote, therefore more people can vote 20 here, and you add it up, and they are voting for 21 Republicans, then the people who are younger, i.e., 22 Hispanics and African-Americans and are not old enough to 23 vote should count less when we are doing congressional 24 redistricting. 25 You what -- all of you keep saying is we need

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Page 216 1 to change it because when you add them up in the aggregate, 2 the total, more people are voting for Republicans; but the 3 reason people are voting for Republicans, in part, is 4 because you're voting a population that is older. My 5 question, do you get that? 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, you 7 ask very good questions, but at the very end of it, you 8 always seem to throw in some kind of twist. Will you ask 9 the question? 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Then let me ask him 11 this. Let me just ask one more question, Mr. Chairman, I 12 will quit. 13 Number one -- number one, do you think that 14 there should be more changes to the Voting Rights Act? 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I think -- 16 Representative, I think at this point in time, that is an 17 issue delegated to our members of Congress. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You don't have a 19 thought on that? 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Representative, our 21 mechanics of Congress are the ones who should have an 22 opportunity to discuss the issue, it's delegated directly to 23 them. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You don't want to 25 answer that.

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Page 217 1 Second of all -- and I am not surprised, by 2 the way, because I think I know the answer. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please ask your 4 question, Mr. Raymond. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Second of all, do 6 you agree with the Chairman of the full committee to the 7 House committee on redistricting, Chairman Joe Crabb, when 8 he said to me we should not have or could not have hearings 9 in South Texas. Do you agree with his decision at that 10 time, after I asked for several days and he publicly stated 11 we should not have them because people down there don't 12 speak English. Do you agree with that decision not to have 13 them? 14 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, 15 Mr. Representative, I don't know specifically what 16 (inaudible). I have heard you mention that several times 17 this morning. I cannot speak to that. 18 I can tell you the Republican party embraces 19 everyone. That it is our goal as an open society, as 20 inclusive society as possible; and I would point to a number 21 of initiatives in this county. As county chairman, I have 22 attempted to make sure that multiple voices are heard within 23 the county. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me ask you this, 25 you don't know what Mr. Crabb said, you don't -- you don't

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Page 218 1 believe that we should not have hearings somewhere in Texas 2 because of a heavy Hispanic population; is that correct? 3 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, I think that the 4 issue here at hand is letting the people express their view 5 point. It's not up to me to decide where the locations 6 would be. 7 What I would say, I would encourage and hope 8 that everyone would have an opportunity across our state -- 9 which, as I understand, the Chairman pointed out at the 10 beginning of this committee hearing, my testimony, that 11 there is a hearing taking place in Laredo. So I would 12 encourage all Texans to participate in the process, both in 13 the hearings and both in Austin; and so I would like to have 14 all voices heard. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But my point is a 16 House committee being chaired by Joe Crabb after he stated 17 he did not want to have hearings the the South Texas -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You are making a 19 statement? 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you believe that 21 we should be discriminated against because we speak Spanish, 22 yes or no? 23 THE WITNESS: Sir, no one should be 24 discriminated against. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So the answer is you

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Page 219 1 don't think we should be discriminated against? 2 THE WITNESS: No one should be discriminated 3 against at all. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, and that's 5 fine, but I'm asking specifically as a Spanish speaking 6 Texan, should we be discriminated against since we speak 7 Spanish? 8 THE WITNESS: I think all Texans' should be 9 allowed to participate in hearings. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's a simple 11 question. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are having a 13 problem with the microphone, Mr. Crain. We are going to 14 conclude the questions at this time. 15 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 16 Representative, as I said before, you may 17 disagree with my answer, you may disagree with -- as far as 18 that is concerned, but I think that all Texans should be 19 allowed to participate in the process and I encourage all 20 Texans to be able to go to Austin and to participate in 21 those hearings. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Finally, let me ask 23 you this: Would you give me your Social Security number? 24 (Audience outburst.) 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf.

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Page 220 1 Ralph McCloud, Susan Hays, Royce West. 2 RALPH MCCLOUD 3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, ladies and 4 gentlemen, committee. My name is Ralph McCloud, and I'm 5 Mayor Pro Tem of the City of Fort Worth and 6 member (inaudible). 7 I checked on my application to speak before 8 you this afternoon that I would be speaking both as Mayor 9 Pro Tem of Fort Worth and as a citizen. And as both 10 situations, I'd like to speak against the proposed 11 redistricting plan. 12 I would like to share with the committee just 13 a portion of the resolution that we passed this past 14 Tuesday, June 24, 2003 at our city council meeting, and the 15 resolution which was overwhelmingly passed by a vote of 16 seven to one. 17 States, just in part, whereas the 18 congressional district matters drawn just two years ago by a 19 federal panel of judges has has been upheld by the United 20 States Supreme Court; and whereas, Fort Worth is well served 21 by both congressional representatives, and current map 22 allows the minority community to have a dramatic impact on 23 the outcome of elections; and whereas the Fort Worth City 24 Council urges the legislature to make no changes to the 25 current map (inaudible) community. And the City of Fort

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Page 221 1 Worth. I -- that's my resolution. 2 Again, the vote of seven to one on that 3 particular resolution, and I would add that we felt that 4 redistricting in the middle of a decade without legal 5 requirement to do so is not only unprecedented, but highly 6 unfair. The current map applies by every provision. It has 7 been upheld by the United States Supreme Court. 8 As a citizen, I stand before you as a person 9 who has realized and understood how important congressional 10 district 24 is, the kind of relationship we have as 11 citizens, African-American, Hispanic citizens in our current 12 representation, and we overwhelmingly voted for the 13 particular representative in District 24, that being Martin 14 Frost over the years with incredible, incredible, incredible 15 results. 16 And ladies and gentlemen, let me just say to 17 you that the person who African-American and Hispanics who 18 support this particular controversy don't do it because we 19 like to smile. We do it because we are used to the kind of 20 revolt in the values used and (inaudible) on behalf of his 21 particular district. And we are extremely, extremely 22 sensitive about this effort that would diffuse throughout 23 the -- throughout the state, and in a very real sense the 24 minority population of the community that, in a very real 25 sense, a very, very, distinct community that has issues that

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Page 222 1 are very in common to each other. 2 Finally, I would just ask that you stay true 3 to the process; that you stay true the process that has been 4 time honored for years and years and years. To stay true to 5 a process that has been (inaudible) our forefathers and 6 foremothers that have come before us. Stay true to a 7 process that was a first, we believe, by the Supreme Court. 8 Stay true to a process that speaks to fairness, speaks to 9 justice, speaks to the whole nation of us being able to have 10 one vote and one voice in a broad community that allows us 11 to come together and have our issues that can be laid before 12 us. 13 I will be glad to answer any questions that 14 any of the committee members may have. Again, I want to 15 thank your for your time. I trust that you will take 16 consideration of the speakers before you. 17 I do also want to mention, I was one of 18 hopefully -- were probably many people, when those of us who 19 were gathered here were referred to as a mob. One thing we 20 all agree on is the importance of us being able to have a 21 voice. A mob is more than a person; it's a group of people 22 who find themselves being pushed to the margins and you are 23 a society, in the very real way causing the kind of tension 24 that exists. 25 Here again, will be glad to attempt to answer

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Page 223 1 any questions. And thank you for your consideration this 2 afternoon. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you, 4 Mr. Chairman. What's the population of the City of Fort 5 Worth? 6 THE WITNESS: Fort Worth's population is 7 right at 565,000 thereabout. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: (inaudible) the 9 Tarrant County? 10 THE WITNESS: Tarrant County population is 11 right at 1.4 million. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you think there 13 are a lot of people who live in that county who believe it 14 or not -- would find it difficult to come all the way over 15 here to attend a hearing? I see about -- I see about -- I 16 see about 20 people who are, I guess, from Fort Worth, 17 Tarrant County. There are 1.4 million people in that 18 county. Do you think the people in that county deserve to 19 have one of these hearings? 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Representative, I think 21 without question, I think had the hearing been in closer 22 proximity to Tarrant County, the attendance would have been 23 higher. Early on, the persons who are gathered here from 24 Tarrant County, Fort Worth went to great pains to be here, 25 shows a great deal of their interest in this particular

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Page 224 1 issue. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Are you aware that 3 in the proposed plan that Mr. DeLay's staff guy drew up that 4 is right here before us, that the Hispanic areas of Tarrant 5 County were split up into five different congressional 6 districts? 7 THE WITNESS: I was aware of that and a cause 8 of great tension and stress for the entire City of Fort 9 Worth. I would say -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think I know why 11 they would want to have a hearing over there. 12 THE WITNESS: And I might add one point that 13 I hope would clarify the question and may confirm your last 14 statement is that in a report that was released last week by 15 the census by the United States Census Office, they talked 16 about Fort Worth being one of the third largest Hispanic 17 growing population in the country, right behind . I 18 forget the second. Since the year 2000, the city has had 19 23 percent growth. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think I know why 21 then they didn't want to have a hearing in Tarrant County. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Other questions? 23 Thank you. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please take state

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Page 225 1 name for the record. 2 REBY CAREY 3 THE WITNESS: Mr. Chairman, what I 4 remember -- Reby Carey from Fort Worth, I'm on the other 5 side of town. 6 I am here today representing the Frederick 7 Douglas, last Republican of Tarrant and the black and 8 Hispanic voters in Texas, which are especially concerned 9 about Tarrant County. 10 Majority of the Texans didn't understand the 11 real reason 51 Democrats abrogate their responsibility to 12 the people of Texas, went AWOL to Ardmore to kill the 13 proposed redistricting bill, and the news media dodged the 14 issue. At the disdain of all of the citizens they are 15 supposed the represent; however, many of us did note the 16 competitive urgency for the Democrats to go AWOL. They try 17 the lay the blame on Congressman Tom DeLay, that his agenda 18 is to delay or completely stop equal rights for blacks and 19 Hispanics in Texas. 20 I was shocked to see in the Dallas Morning 21 News. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm appalled. 23 THE WITNESS: I am, too. The Dallas Morning 24 News -- (inaudible), she said, and I quote, she said, as an 25 African-American, I was shocked to find out the Republican's

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Page 226 1 proposal for redistricting walked on my Democrats, including 2 one congressal district for blacks and two for Hispanics. 3 From my point of view, this aspect of walking out was 4 greatly understated. And she goes on. 5 What I said to her, Ms. Francis, the 6 Democrats in Texas have never wanted change that would allow 7 blacks to have more elected officials in most political 8 subdivisions. 9 They have been (inaudible) for years to help 10 the party maintain the majority in congress. Democrats 11 don't mind closing down the legislature, the parts of the 12 legislature in order to protect their own personal 13 interests. And I suggest that maybe the State needs a 14 constitutional revision that would remove lawmakers who 15 violate their oath of office by preventing or destroying a 16 quorum while the legislature is in session. 17 Let me express the gratitude of many black 18 voters who said they were glad that several of our black 19 representatives did not go to Ardmore and remained in Texas 20 because they wanted to support a redistricting bill that 21 would enhance our numbers in the U.S. Congress. 22 Currently, Texas has 32 members of congress. 23 Two blacks, Sheila (inaudible) and Eddie Bernice, who we 24 just heard from a few minutes ago. And Tarrant County, 25 zero. Our fair Senators in Texas legislators, two blacks,

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Page 227 1 Royce West and Rodney Hill from Houston. Fort Worth, zero. 2 In the House of Representatives, 150 members, one 3 representative. 4 When Texas -- listen to this. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You don't know what 6 you're talking about, man. 7 THE WITNESS: Shut up. Democrats last were 8 not allowed -- blacks were not allowed to vote in the 9 until the Supreme Court -- 10 (Audience outburst.) 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ma'am, please allow 12 him to speak. 13 (Audience outburst.) 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Hold up. Please be 15 quiet. This is a public hearing. We are trying to allow 16 everyone here to have their say. 17 You may agree or you may disagree with any 18 particular individual, but let's show them the courtesy that 19 they deserve and allow each individual to speak. 20 THE WITNESS: It was not until 1945 that 21 blacks were allowed to vote in the democratic primary in 22 Texas. Since 1921 every time the United States Supreme 23 Court would rule that blacks be allowed to vote, the 24 Democrats would change their motive plans and circumvent the 25 decisions.

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Page 228 1 We still had no congressional representation 2 until won in 1972 as a congresswoman from 3 Houston. In 1979 Governor vetoed the bill, the 4 redistricting bill because it did not provide for black -- 5 congressional seats for blacks in Dallas. He said, Eddie 6 Bernice was here, opposition has been from congressman and 7 other Democrats, it progressed to worked where when the 1980 8 census, the demographics were published. 9 Representative , Paul 10 Ragsdale and I were the three blacks on the House 11 redistricting committee, and we couldn't get help in 12 creatinging a district in Dallas that would give a chance to 13 to win and stop them from reducing our numbers. 14 In 1968 -- Mr. Vernon, in 1978 Attorney Don 15 Glad won a decision in Tarrant County that created another 16 representative district for blacks, and Bobby Webber won 17 that district House seat. 18 The Democrats went to work immediately and 19 changed the district so that Doyle Willis would have a seat. 20 He lost to Lannie Hill. I was told by other Democrats in 21 the Tarrant County delegation that we didn't deserve two 22 black representatives; and today, we only have one in 23 Tarrant County. 24 Democrats in this State continue to pursue a 25 plan that would racially discriminatorily affect to minimize

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Page 229 1 minority voters and restrict in favor of keeping white 2 candidates dominate. If you approve the current proposal, a 3 black or Hispanic could possibly win the State District 90 4 seat. Mr. Vernon would note, currently held by Lonnie 5 Vernon. 6 This district's demographics represent a 7 74 percent black and Hispanic ratio; and in 1991, we 8 proposed that the State should adopt our State Senate plan 9 for District 12, which had a 66.4 black/Hispanic ratio, 10 which I am going to give you in a bit. 11 When Eddie Bernice Johnson -- I wish she was 12 still here -- won a seat in the the 1986, she 13 became the leading advocate for the proposed congressional 14 seat in Dallas. 15 The 1990 census further justified Dallas have 16 a black congressal representative. Lieutenant Governor Bob 17 Bullock appointed her chairlady of a Senate subcommittee on 18 redistricting. And she had opposition still from Democrats: 19 From Fred Blair, Chairman of the Black Legislative, John 20 Wiley Price, who was just here, Alfonso Jackson, Dallas 21 Housing Authority, accused the Democrat majority and House 22 of Representatives of diluting the voting strength of blacks 23 to ensure the election of white officeholders. However, 24 Eddie Bernice prevailed and she was electeded to the House. 25 Now this brings me the real sticking points.

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Page 230 1 Even though we supported her election -- I wish she was 2 here -- I called and I talked to her. She sacrificed and 3 diluted the votes of blacks in Tarrant County in order for 4 Martin Frost to keep a seat in Congress. Tom Bright and 5 Eddie Bernice Johnson took Frost's seat out so they could 6 get blacks in Oak Cliff and separate from District 12 and 7 placed them in District 24. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Is that your 9 district? 10 THE WITNESS: That's 100 percent dilution of 11 black voting strength, which we object to. However, the 12 credit that were immediate when this happened, were years 13 where blacks, we were in District 12, Jim Wright's district. 14 But they took us out. I was until I found out that the 15 Democrats don't care about us at all. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Your time is up. 17 THE WITNESS: My request I have of you -- I 18 have documents, Mr. Chairman. 19 In 1991, we had the same plans and proposals 20 whereby we could create more, have more blacks in congress, 21 have more in the House; and under this plan, as I understand 22 it, we can get one more. 23 We have people qualified to run for the 24 House. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Why don't you run.

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Page 231 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I may. 2 But it bothers me that we have such concern 3 now, but when it happened back to us back then, the voice 4 was silent. I say to you, a number of -- I know my time is 5 up. I have a copy here for each one of you. 6 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: You are testifying 7 for -- you are testifying for the redistricting? 8 THE WITNESS: That's right. 9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: You allow me to 10 check that mark. You have a no here, but you don't have a 11 checkmark -- may have the checkmark by your witness 12 affirmation. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think it would be in all 14 fairness to everybody -- and there again, I am concerned 15 that at least we have some more minorities in the congress. 16 I don't care, any kind; so that we have some of those. 17 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I think you are 18 hearing from the the audience your credibility is somewhat 19 lacking. 20 THE WITNESS: I fought for Dallas to get that 21 one seat. And I told Jim Wright and them then I had been a 22 Democrat all my life, we been supporting this party all my 23 life and all we want is one congressional seat. And Bill 24 Clinton, when he vetoed that bill, I told him, hey, it's 25 time the Republicans are helping us.

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Page 232 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: When you served 2 in the legislature, you did serve in the legislature as a 3 Democrat? 4 THE WITNESS: That's right, I was elected in 5 1978. I went in as a Democrat, and until I got into the 6 redistricting and found what was happening to us -- and let 7 me tell you something, my mother didn't send me to 8 (inaudible) to be no nothing. 9 I had some judgment and I looked at the 10 statistics, and saw the demographics of the voters, what was 11 happening there. I said to all the blacks then, I said, 12 that's why they voted me out, because they didn't split the 13 vote. Anybody who goes in and the vote is already known 14 before you count it, no matter how you vote, we've got you 15 already -- we got your vote. The (inaudible) years ago, the 16 problem is that for -- since 1980, the Republicans been 17 winning without us, and the Democrats got you already locked 18 in, you have no clout. 19 Except for the peope we have in now, we want 20 to have influence. Reby Carey said, we ought to have some 21 more black congressmen, period. 22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: You indicated you 23 were voted out of office because you weren't a puppet? 24 THE WITNESS: I am the first elected official 25 to come out publicly. I don't -- I came out, publically

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Page 233 1 supported Bill Clinton just because of that particular 2 thing. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Because he said 4 let us get that one congressional seat. 5 THE WITNESS: He helped us get that one 6 congressional seat whether you like it or not. So party, I 7 understand that; but until we wake up and find out that, 8 hey, we need some clout on both sides. 9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Carey, let me 10 ask you this: I had the opportunity, I think in the 11 litigation back in '90's on redistricting to testify. One 12 of the points that was raised was, you know, since we 13 historically have drawn districts so -- well, the term they 14 use is bleached -- we have drawn a suburban district so 15 bleached out, Republicans aren't required to campaign to 16 minority voters. 17 Do you see some benefit in the future, the 18 future of our nation, to get away from this kind of 19 attitude? Or some people said, well, Republicans, they 20 don't look at our issues enough. Wouldn't it be good to 21 make Republicans campaign to minorities? 22 THE WITNESS: It's one of the problems. I 23 explained to two State Republicans, in committee, when I 24 served on them, the problem, when we look at the time 25 precinct council demographics, they look at the precincts in

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Page 234 1 the inner city, we have blacks now who live all over Tarrant 2 County and they are not just not concentrated. They have 3 some independence, they go with the flow. 4 But until we recognize that our inner city 5 disappearing, it's -- so we have blacks all over the city. 6 That's why we been able to come up with some numbers that 7 the people -- and I, we said we might be a little more 8 concerned that we have young people -- people my age, they 9 already locked in -- but the young people now who are coming 10 along have a different perspective about what government is 11 about. 12 And the point is again, they not here. They 13 get you locked down in the party. Until we are able to give 14 you a vote and take it, you have no power. It's that 15 simple. 16 I switched party because I got tired of my 17 vote being taken for granted. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I would like to ask 19 you a couple of questions, Mr. Carey. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Is it your 22 contention that -- is it your contention then that if you 23 take five or six members of congress that are representing 24 Texas today -- and I am looking at the last years, NAACP 25 legislative report card in front of me -- you take five or

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Page 235 1 six of those members who are voting 85 percent 90, 2 95 percent of the time in favor of the issue that the NAACP 3 thinks is important to the African-American community and 4 you replace them with five members that are voting 5 21 percent of the time, 27 percent of the time for the 6 NAACP, but they guarantee that Reby Carey or whatever other 7 African-American get elected to congress, do you believe 8 that that's the best thing for the African-American 9 community in the State of Texas? 10 THE WITNESS: I think we need representation. 11 And let me say this, I been African-American 12 all my life and I agree with my nature, I (inaudible) in 13 segregation. The blacks in United States are the only ones 14 who have been constitutionalized as slaves. In Texas 15 discrimination was by law. We the only ones. 16 So what I am saying, if we have some of us, 17 we have a little different perspective. We don't always 18 agree. We don't always agree, but the point is we have some 19 other perspective if you have more of us. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So if you have 21 one -- if they give you -- 22 THE WITNESS: We are outnumbered anyway. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: -- if they give you 24 one member of congress, one seat, that guarantees, in your 25 opinion, that an African-American, someone that has been an

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Page 236 1 African-American all their lives is elected? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But then they take 4 away five or six that ain't never been African-American, can 5 vote every day, every day 85, 95 percent of the time to help 6 not just Reby Carey but every African-American in the State 7 of Texas, do you believe that's a good trade? 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, let me say this: Yes. I 9 am just getting started. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Gentleman, has 11 yielded the floor. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You don't need to be 13 afraid of me. Let me just ask a couple of more questions. 14 When you ran for congress -- 15 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: -- as a 17 Republican -- 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: -- did you get the 20 Republican nomination? 21 THE WITNESS: That's my point, see, I 22 couldn't get out of primary. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I got news for you, 24 as long as you stay Republican, you ain't going to get out 25 of primary.

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Page 237 1 (Audience outburst.) 2 THE WITNESS: Let me say this -- let me say 3 this. I have the document to show it. I was the only 4 black. I ran against Martin Frost -- against Martin Frost. 5 I was the only black then. I got the endorsement of the 6 Dallas Morning News and Star Telegram. 7 The reason I lost, I guess -- let me tell you 8 why. The next day, I had black Democrats come to my house, 9 wanted to know -- they thought I had won in the primary. 10 They said, we are here to support you. Where is Greg Davis? 11 Lot of those came -- (inaudible) chairman came because they 12 supported me, not because I was a Republican, because I was 13 black. They wanted somebody else like themselves. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But if they knew 15 that you, who had been African-American all your life, 16 supported -- put five more six more people in congress 17 against the Voting Rights Act, you think they would still 18 support? 19 THE WITNESS: No. I wasn't against Voting 20 Rights Act. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Not you, but other 22 Republicans. 23 Let me also tell you, then I'll quit here. 24 Abraham Lincoln, I think, was a great president, even though 25 he was a Republican. Did you know that when he was a State

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Page 238 1 Representative in Illinois, he broke the quorum? 2 THE WITNESS: I was in Austin when we had 3 redistricting, just like we have now, but we didn't run 4 away. We stayed and faced responsibilities. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We didn't run away 6 either. We did what Abraham Lincoln did, and that was used 7 the tools given to us by our founding fathers. 8 (Audience outburst.) 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam, do you 10 have a question? 11 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Yes, Mr. Carey, you 12 expressed dissatisfaction with the current State House and 13 Senate maps. You know that those maps were drawn solely by 14 John Cornyn, David Dewhurst and Carolyn Keeton-Rylander, all 15 Republicans? 16 THE WITNESS: That doesn't bother me at all. 17 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Let me say this -- 18 THE WITNESS: If you know -- if you know -- 19 as you know, I don't care what kind of bill you come up 20 with. When it comes out of the House, it's going to be 21 amended, changed all kinds of ways. See, I was 22 vice-chairman of redistricting -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Are you an elected 24 official at this time? 25 THE WITNESS: I am retired, sir.

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Page 239 1 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman, point 2 of inquiry. It is my understanding that the rules of this 3 committee would be that we would proceed with elected 4 officials first, pro and con. The last two pro witnesses 5 have been party officials, not elected officials. 6 I know that the Mayor of the City of Waco, 7 council people from the City of Killeen, other elected 8 officials are out in in audience. Are there any elected 9 officials who are for redistricting here? 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: We are working 11 our way through. 12 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: This gentleman is not 13 an elected official and neither was the County Chairman from 14 Dallas County, but I understand the Chair's rules, that 15 elected officials could speak. 16 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: The lay county chair 17 are elected, they are on the ballot. 18 Thank you very much, Mr. Carey. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Pat Carlson, 20 Tarrant County Republican Party Chair. 21 PAT CARLSON 22 Thank you, Mr. Marchant -- Representative Marchant. 23 Apparently my form got lost because I have been here since 24 the beginning. I an definitely an elected official and I 25 was going to clarify with Mr. Dunnam --

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Page 240 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have about 20 or 2 30 more elected officials. I am trying to alternate the 3 fors and againsts. 4 THE WITNESS: But it's definitely an elected 5 official. We have to run in a much larger area than the 6 state reps do. We have to run county wide. It's definitely 7 elected. I would thank you for having these hearings so 8 that every citizen in Texas has an opportunity to express 9 their views to you on redistricting. 10 It's very sad that we all have to be witness 11 to behavior of some who act like unruly children who are 12 never taught to behave in public, and it's even sadder -- 13 excuse me. Excuse me. 14 MR. MARCHANT: Please allow the witness to 15 testify. Please allow the witness to testify. Please allow 16 the witness to testify. 17 THE WITNESS: It's even sadder it seems 18 that -- it seems as though that -- it's even sadder that it 19 seems -- 20 MR. MARCHANT: Please allow the witness the 21 courtesy of testimony. I do not remember anyone cat calling 22 when County Commissioner Price was testifying and 23 Congresswoman Bernice Johnson's testimony. I don't remember 24 this kind of behavior. Just because someone does not agree 25 with you, do not extend them the courtesy of listening to

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Page 241 1 them. Proceed Ms. Carlson. 2 THE WITNESS: And it's even sadder that it 3 seems as though the Democrat elected officials on the panel 4 seem to be encouraging this type of behavior. It seems to 5 me that the Democrat Representatives -- how rude. How rude. 6 Shame on you. 7 MR. MARCHANT: Please allow the witness to 8 testify. Please show her some courtesy. 9 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Chairman, may I 10 ask the witness a question since she seems to be badgering 11 my constituents. 12 THE WITNESS: I would like to finish my 13 testimony. 14 MR. MARCHANT: The witness will be allowed to 15 finish her testimony. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't think that's badgering. 17 I think I am just being asked to be paid the same respect as 18 I have paid everybody. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Committee on 20 redistricting -- Subcommittee on redistricting will stand at 21 ease for five minutes. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. 23 (Recess from 1:37 to 1:47.) 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Meeting come to 25 order. Committee come to order. The Chair recognizes

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Page 242 1 County Republican Chairman Pat Carlson from Tarrant County. 2 THE WITNESS: As I was saying -- trying to 3 say a second ago. It seems to me that the Democrats that 4 are sitting on this panel are more interested in delay and 5 disrupt than they are in letting people have public 6 testimony, so I would encourage them to not make such long 7 I'm sorry, I am I not supposed to start. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, ma'am, you go 9 ahead. 10 THE WITNESS: I would encourage folks like 11 Mr. Raymond not to make such time long-winded statements. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please proceed with 13 your testimony. 14 THE WITNESS: The majority of Texans which 15 just happen to be of the Republican persuasion simply -- 16 Republicans, they simply -- the majority of Texans which 17 just happen to be of the Republican persuasion simply want 18 their voices to be heard in the U.S. Congress. 19 I was polite when other people testified this 20 morning. Please be polite. 21 MR. MARCHANT: You are just going to have to 22 plow ahead. I have begging all morning for that. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is -- they simply 24 want their voices heard in the U S. Congress. This is not 25 happening now because everything -- every time that the

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Page 243 1 Republican minority in the Texas delegation puts forward 2 something for the President the Democrat majority strikes it 3 down. Every vote that the Republicans makes the Democrats 4 in the delegation cancel out their vote. 5 MR. MARCHANT: Please, proceed. 6 THE WITNESS: This majority in the Texas 7 congressional delegation is the last vestige of power that 8 the Democrats have in Texas, and so that is the reason that 9 these folks are fighting so hard to be so rude. Once that 10 majority is gone, the Democrat Party will basically be 11 irrelevant in Texas for years to come. 12 If the Democrat controlled Texas House had 13 done their job of redistricting in 2001, the power would 14 never -- the power would never have gone to the courts. The 15 courts took the responsibility -- the courts took the 16 responsibility reluctantly stating that it was left in the 17 quotes, unwelcome -- "left with the unwelcome obligation of 18 performing in the legislature's stead." The court drew a 19 map that admittedly did not reflect Texas voting behavior or 20 minority population across Texas, but did protect all 21 Congressional incumbents, so Texans were basically left with 22 the same lines that the Democrat controlled House drew in 23 1991, which has been referred to as the shrewdest 24 gerrymandering of the 1990's. 25 It is well-known that Martin Frost drew those

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Page 244 1 lines so I don't know why Mr. Delay is being hit on so hard 2 now. It seems to be selective memory. Of the three 3 congressional seats in Tarrant County, Representative Martin 4 Frost's district has been carved out precinct by precinct to 5 incorporate the most Democrat district so that Mr. Frost can 6 get elected, and this is in the most Republican county in 7 Texas. This is the county that delivered more net 8 Republican votes for George W. Bush, Governor Perry and 9 Senator John Cornyn. More than any other county in Texas. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow Ms. 11 Carlson to do her testimony. 12 THE WITNESS: Voters across Texas just want 13 fair lines that truly give them representation. It is 14 not -- it is -- redrawing congressional lines after they 15 have been put in place by a court or other bodies is neither 16 illegal nor unprecedented. In 1984 the California 17 Legislature was forced to redraw the Congressional map after 18 the voters approved a state wide referendum overturning the 19 existing lines. Whether it is the Colorado legislature -- I 20 sure hope people don't do this to you when you testify. The 21 Colorado legislature -- 22 MR. MARCHANT: Please proceed. 23 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: You're acting 24 like Republicans. 25 THE WITNESS: I believe they are acting like

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Page 245 1 Democrats. The Colorado legislature recently approved a new 2 congressional map amending the court drawn plan put in force 3 for the 2002 election. The legislation was signed into law 4 by Republican Governor Bill Owens, but before it could go 5 into effect Colorado Attorney General Ken Salazar, a 6 Democrat, sued to stop the plan before it being implemented, 7 so this is certainly not unprecedented. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow her to 9 testify, sir. I have never been in a hearing, and I have 10 been in the legislature for 18 years where people screamed 11 out loud at witnesses, and I have never seen where the 12 screaming only took place when there was someone at the 13 microphones that happened to disagree with him. 14 THE WITNESS: In closing -- the truth must 15 really hurt is all I can say. In closing -- in closing -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What will take 17 place after -- if the legislature passes a redistricting 18 plan and if the Governor signs it, it will go to the 19 Department of Justice. If the Department of Justice -- 20 could I please make a statement? Then the map will go to a 21 court and it will be contested. What is important for the 22 Department of Justice to know and that court to know is what 23 each and every witness in each and every one of these what 24 will be 11 hearings by the time we -- by the end of next 25 week, it's important that the courts be able to ascertain

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Page 246 1 through the testimony how to proceed on these maps. 2 It's important that we get into the record 3 what people are saying and their witnessing. I understand 4 how emotional it is. I understand, and I haven't been in 5 this emotionally a charged hearing except for the 1700 6 people that testified in some of our hearings this session. 7 But this is so important to get in the record 8 each and every witnesses' comments about the map on each map 9 that I would ask you to allow that record to be complete so 10 that whether it be Democrat or Republican so that the Court 11 Reporter can ascertain what is being said, and so the tapes 12 take are being made can ascertain, because Mr. Raymond has 13 brought up very appropriately throughout the meeting today 14 that what is said in each and everyone of these meetings is 15 transcribed and recorded and remembered, and we are all on 16 that page and we all want that to happen, and I would 17 appreciate any degree of cooperation you are willing to 18 give. I greatly appreciate it. 19 Ms. Carlson. 20 THE WITNESS: In closing, the House Democrats 21 who hightailed it ot Oklahoma in May were applauded by some 22 as heroes, but most Texans saw them -- but most Texans saw 23 them as cowardly legislators who were shirking their 24 responsibility. The cost and necessity of having the 25 special session rests squarely on the shoulders of the 50

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Page 247 1 plus Democrats who went to Oklahoma. Governor Perry and 2 this Committee are the true heroes of the day for being 3 willing to take the heat and do the right thing for Texas. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Let me see if there 5 is any member of the Committee who wants to ask questions 6 first. Mr. Vernon. 7 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you. Is this 8 working now? Is the mike working? 9 Madam Chairperson, my mom taught me to always 10 thank somebody before you start in on anything, and I do 11 want to thank you for testifying on behalf of my Bill that 12 ultimately passed in another member's legislation that will 13 allow precinct chairs, regardless of partisan affiliation, 14 the ability to make more money when they are holding these 15 elections. I think that's very important and I appreciate 16 your testimony on that, but I disagree with you on some 17 fundamental things and I want to ask you some questions. 18 First, you opened your second round of 19 comments right after the break with a comment that you said 20 a majority of Texans are of the Republican persuasion. What 21 I want to ask you about goes back to my initial question to 22 the initial witness. Do you not understand that 23 redistricting is based on the census and that all people -- 24 all people red and yellow, red and black, children and 25 elderly, all people count in the census tract. Not just

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Page 248 1 people that bother to vote. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, redistricting is 3 based on the census, I do understand that, but did the 4 Democrats understand that for the last 130 years when they 5 drew their crazy lines? I would just ask you that. 6 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: As I clarified for 7 the other official who tried to question me, I am the State 8 Representative and I am asking you questions about your 9 testimony. 10 Now, what I would like to do is move to 11 Tarrant County specifically, because you and I are both 12 familiar with Tarrant County and the precincts. Are you 13 aware that in the redistricting process the Community of 14 Interest Committee in Tarrant County pushed for and worked 15 with both Mr. Grusendorf and myself to make sure that 16 certain precincts were added to the legislative district 17 that I currently represent because they were heavily 18 Hispanic. Are you aware of that? 19 THE WITNESS: I was not. We are talking 20 about congressional districts. 21 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Well, I am trying to 22 elucidate a point so you can better understand what is being 23 done, because I don't think you really intend to 24 dsenfranchise my Hispanic constituents? 25 THE WITNESS: I never did that, Mr. Vernon.

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Page 249 1 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Well, I don't think 2 you intend to, and that's the reason I am trying to point 3 this out to you and give you some information I can. If you 4 will look at the proposed map, the way Tarrant County is 5 sliced and diced all of the north side of Fort Worth, which 6 has always been in this inner city district, is put into a 7 Congressional District dominated by Denton County. In 8 addition to that, if you will look further, if you go down 9 and look at this little pink spot down here, the new area 10 that has been added to House Legislative District 90, it 11 specifically was added because it is a growth Hispanic area 12 It's a District 90. It is now put into a county -- in a 13 Congressional District that is totally dominated by Denton 14 County. Are you aware of that? 15 THE WITNESS: No, sir. 16 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Well, let me just 17 give you for an example, for anybody that wants to look at 18 Tarrant County, virtually all of this pink area south is 19 heavily minority, heavily low income, and what this map 20 proposes to do is to take the minority representation that 21 we have in Tarrant County, which I don't care who it is, 22 what I want is a safe garnered district in Tarrant County. 23 You have already ripped away our representation in the State 24 Senate. Are you not aware that what this proposal does is 25 it fundamentally disenfranchises all of my constituents in

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Page 250 1 District 90 because they will not be represented in the 2 . 3 THE WITNESS: Is there a question in there? 4 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Yes. I said are you 5 not aware that that's what this fundamentally does? 6 THE WITNESS: Let me respond to your 7 statement. You are making your statement assume that only 8 Democrats can represent minorities and I think that is just 9 not true. 10 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: That is not the 11 point. The point is historically 12 years ago we had three 12 minority impact districts in North Texas. Now, this map is 13 proposing to cut it down to one minority impact district and 14 none in Tarrant County. So not only am I responsible for 15 representing the people of District 90, I am responsible for 16 representing everybody in the county who does not feel they 17 have access to the system because they are not represented 18 by Republicans. I am just trying to ask you if you really 19 think just because one wrong was done by Democrats that are 20 older than I've been born and around, you think that just 21 because what they did is wrong, my constituents should be 22 disenfranchised with a map like this? 23 THE WITNESS: That's your assessment of that 24 map, and it seems to me that it's really a shame that the 25 few Democrats on this panel do nothing but try to take

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Page 251 1 away -- you try to put the rhetoric out there and focus out 2 there in other areas instead of dealing with job that we 3 need to do. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon, you are 5 going to be recognized to make a statement. Mr. Alonzo made 6 a statement. Mr. Hill made a statement. He got up to the 7 witness stand and he didn't take advantage of the courtesy 8 that has been given to ask question after question that is 9 not a question, they are statements. 10 The Chair recognizes Mr. Raymond who is on 11 the Committee. 12 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: I would like the 13 record to reflect that I was denied the opportunity to 14 continue to ask questions of the representative of Tarrant 15 County. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 17 Mr. Raymond. Mr. Raymond. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Hello. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Could we get 20 somebody to turn Mr. Raymond's microphone on? Somebody 21 turned it off. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I'm sorry -- 23 Mr. Chairman. 24 I apologize, I don't remember your name. 25 THE WITNESS: It's Pat Carlson.

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Page 252 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Pat? 2 THE WITNESS: Carlson. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Ms. Carlson, I 4 wanted to ask you if you are familiar with this because I 5 was right around the corner eating a sandwich when you were 6 talking and I heard some of the stuff. 7 THE WITNESS: I think all of us are hungry. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yeah. And I wanted 9 to know that if you are aware that in 1992 the district that 10 we are under now -- the map that we are under now compared 11 to 1992, which is of course what we have been under before, 12 that when you look at all of the State of Texas, that five 13 districts that used to be Democratic candidates or members 14 of Congress are now Republican, and so if Martin Frost 15 gerrymandered, he did a bad job of gerrymandering. 16 THE WITNESS: He continues to get reelected 17 in a very Republican county. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Because not a 19 single -- not a single one of those, you know, that were 20 Republican went for a Democrat, but five of them that had 21 been for Democrats went for Republicans. So I didn't know 22 if you knew that because you made a statement that he had 23 gerrymandered the whole state and just rigged it up and made 24 it for the Democrats. 25 THE WITNESS: I said the court protected the

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Page 253 1 incumbent. I think that's true. It's in the record. I 2 would simply say that to you. If that's what you are 3 telling me is true and we do redo lines, why are the 4 Democrats so worried about it? If you think there is some 5 Republican drawn lines that are going to reflect the true 6 Republican voters of Texas or Republican citizens, why are 7 you so worried? Why are the Democrats so worried? If you 8 give some such good representation in the Congress, I am 9 sure you will continue to get reelected. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I'm sorry, say that 11 again. Say that again. 12 THE WITNESS: I said if the lines were drawn 13 in such a way that Republicans picked up five seats or five 14 districts that should have gone Republican I believe is what 15 you just said about the lines and the way the courts drew 16 it, is that correct, did I understand you right? 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: John Cornyn actually 18 drew it but go ahead. Let me ask you this: Do you believe 19 as your county -- you are from Tarrant County, right? 20 THE WITNESS: I am. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And Commissioner 22 Whitley. Whitley. Would he agree that the Republican Party 23 of Texas offers viable opportunity to minorities; do you 24 believe that to be true? 25 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.

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Page 254 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Then you can 2 probably help out here because you are the Tarrant County 3 Republican Chairwoman. Well, Mr. Whitley is not here, but 4 for the record -- oh, I'm sorry, he is back there. 5 Commissioner. For the record, you also remember when 6 Governor Perry appointed an Hispanic to the Supreme Court in 7 2001, right? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And is that your 10 idea of helping Hispanics and offering them opportunities? 11 THE WITNESS: You don't think appointing 12 minorities is helping? I think that's -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I will answer your 14 question if you will answer mine. 15 THE WITNESS: I mean to me I think that's 16 self-explanatory if you are appointing a minority. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I will 18 be glad to answer her question if she will answer mine. 19 I will answer yours. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do think that is one way 21 that Republicans benefit minorities. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That is one way. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And then -- 25 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: What's your

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Page 255 1 question? 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, come up to the 3 mike and I will ask you, buddy. Step up if you got the 4 guts. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We would like to 6 get every witness. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Anyway, so you agree 8 that that is one of the ways that you could help one 9 minority, because you are helping one minority, but do you 10 also think then that it is significant that that person who 11 is appointed by the Governor, and I am sure you know his 12 name. 13 THE WITNESS: Xavier Rodriquez. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: See, see, Mr. 15 Chairman, she knows his name. It's actually pronounced 16 Javier but any way... 17 THE WITNESS: I am a born Texan -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do what? You a 19 native Texas? 20 THE WITNESS: I am. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So am I. 22 THE WITNESS: The question? 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Did you think it's 24 significant that even though Governor Perry endorsed him -- 25 maybe you do too -- I don't know -- that the Republican

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Page 256 1 party would not nominate him? 2 THE WITNESS: I think it's significant that 3 Hispanics need to -- they are not -- there is not -- we need 4 to work at registering Hispanic voters. I think it's 5 significant that the Hispanics didn't turn out to support 6 one of their own is what I think is significant. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So Hispanic -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Can we focus on 9 questions that relate to the -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So are you saying 11 Hispanics should only be elected if Hispanics vote for them? 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: This hearing has to 13 do with restricting. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It has to do with 15 redistricting. We are talking about offering minorities 16 opportunity because there is something called minority 17 opportunities, Mr. Chairman. 18 So it's your belief that if a minority wants 19 to get elected the minorities have to vote for that person, 20 otherwise don't expect to get elected? 21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand your 22 question. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, you just said, 24 I asked you if you thought it was significant? 25 THE WITNESS: I said in a primary it seems to

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Page 257 1 me that it was more significant that the Hispanic voters did 2 not turn out to support one of their own. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: One of their own. 4 Because not enough -- because not enough Hispanics -- 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Let Mr. Raymond ask 6 and Ms. Carlson respond. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Because in the 8 Republican primary not enough of your own are willing to 9 support enough of my own basically? 10 THE WITNESS: I did not mean to use "your 11 own". I didn't mean in any way -- 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, we 13 have twenty more legislators. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am finished right 15 here. Let her answer. 16 THE WITNESS: I certainly didn't mean that in 17 a derogatory manner. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I could not hear 19 the answer. 20 THE WITNESS: Think I answered it. It 21 doesn't matter what I said. It doesn't matter. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 23 testimony, Ms. Carlson. 24 At this time the Chair is going to recognize 25 Fred Latham. Fred's a city council member from the city of

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Page 258 1 Killeen. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, while 3 the witness comes up, can I give you two letters to submit 4 for the record if I could just hand them to you? One 5 is from -- two witnesses who were here but they had to go. 6 I don't know if they did affirmation forms, but Teresa 7 Daniels from Dallas and Roy Orr of North Texas it says for 8 the record. Submit that for the record. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We will match them 10 up with a witness affirmation form. If they don't have a 11 witness affirmation form, we will make sure they get into 12 the record. 13 Please proceed, sir. 14 MR. VERNON: I would like to ask a question 15 to Mr. Carey. You know, you raised my name in vain two or 16 three times. I want a little bit of clarification there. 17 Mr. Carey, would you mind coming back to the podium? 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We now -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: We now have 300 20 witnesses signed up. 21 MR. VERNON: Mr. Chairman, can I make for the 22 record that everybody understands that this gentleman was 23 defeated in the Democratic primary in Fort Worth and -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We now have 25 Ms. Susan Hays, the Dallas County Democratic party chairman.

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Page 259 1 SUSAN HAYS 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You are an elected 3 official as well? 4 THE WITNESS: I appeared on the ballot last 5 primary season. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please proceed. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Committee members, 8 Representative Marchant. We always seem to most in the most 9 unpleasant circumstances. 10 I am the chair of the Dallas County 11 Democratic party. And I thank the committee members for 12 allowing me to testify today. I also would like to, in some 13 way, testify in my personal capacity as an attorney. 14 When I was in law school, I had the 15 opportunity to study redistricting law and the 16 constitutional bounds around it from a gentleman who had 17 been head of the right section from the Department of 18 Justice. I think this committee may be familiar with, is 19 Maynard Jerry Hebren. I think I saw him written testimony 20 from him being passed around today. Learned a great deal 21 from him about the rule of law in the political process and 22 what the Voting Rights Act means. 23 I want to apologize if I'm redundant for 24 testimony that the committee already heard today; because of 25 the facility and room that is frankly much too small for

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Page 260 1 this hearing, I couldn't get in until much later. So I have 2 only had the opportunity to hear the last few witnesses. 3 Would like to begin my first point, I am 4 (inaudible) precedented this process this is. There is no 5 legal need for redistricting. There is no public outcry for 6 re-redistricting. And looking at the vast majority of the 7 folks in this room today, are I against redistricting. 8 As a lawyer, when I see rules being changed 9 during the process, it concerns me that the process fall 10 apart in the future. If we redistrict this time for no 11 apparent reason, aside from Tom DeLay wants it to happen, 12 what is there to stop there to be redistricting mid-decade 13 again and again and again? Do we come back every two years 14 to readjust the districts for how the votes turned out that 15 time? If your Republican members on the committee, if 16 you're president's polling number's taint and the election 17 shifts the next time, are we supposed to come back and 18 redraw the districts? 19 Be aware, if we change the rules of the 20 process, because it will come back to bite you in the butt, 21 quite frankly. 22 Move on to the substance of law. The Voting 23 Rights Act secures the right of the citizens to have 24 districts drawn around a community of interest and to elect 25 representatives of their choice. It is not about having a

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Page 261 1 representative that has your same political party 2 affiliation or necessarily your same race. It's about 3 communities of interest having enough political power to 4 elect representatives who will be responsive to their names 5 and carry their concerns to Washington or Austin. 6 If we take what I see as the Republican 7 party's argument here and add their circumvent theories, 8 it's the election rules that draws redistricting and not the 9 census. 10 If you throw all that constitutional law out 11 the window, and buy this argument that it is election 12 results, one, we are back to do this every two years. 13 And second, we are back to some curious 14 results in Dallas County. It turns out Dallas County is 15 Democratic these days and shifting. Right now we have 16 one-and-a-half Democratic representatives in Congress. 17 Over the last ten years, I was looking at 18 these numbers recently in preparation for the next election 19 cycle, the Democratic performance in Dallas County as gone 20 up about two points a year. That brings us to 49-and-a-half 21 in 2004. 22 The reason for this strength is minority 23 growth in the county. Particularly the minority growth of 24 Hispanics spread out all over the county. The good new is, 25 segregation is not what it once was. Communities are all

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Page 262 1 over the county and they need representation that will pay 2 attention to their communities of interest, and to their 3 needs in Congress. 4 What I see with the plan -- and I am 5 presuming this plan will actually be debated in Austin, 6 there won't be any money coming (inaudible) contrary 7 information. What it does to North Texas is pack Eddie 8 Bernice Johnson's district beyond belief and crack open a 9 minority district in District 24. 10 As a policy matter and good citizenship 11 matter, I don't see how it serves citizens in districts that 12 are 90 percent either political party. It disenfranchises 13 folks who tend to vote with that party outside the district, 14 and it just -- it leaves those folks inside the district 15 with an influence over one representative in Congress. 16 The debate I remember having in law school, 17 have you increased the political power of African-Americans 18 and Latinos in Texas. If you pack them in one district, 19 they only have one voice. If you give them influence over 20 more than one district in Texas, then they have greater 21 political power in the halls of Congress and down in Austin 22 at the legislature. 23 I do not see how any map like this can pass 24 constitutional muster and I certainly don't see the sense in 25 having the State spend the money to fight it court when

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Page 263 1 you -- when you know it's going to go down. 2 And as the Representatives are painfully 3 aware, the State is in the budget crisis it is in. And I 4 know this is going to be a long day for you-all today, so 5 I'll keep my comments short. If there are any more 6 questions, I am done. 7 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Ms. Hays, just to 8 follow up on points you were making there. 9 It almost appears that what you are saying, 10 that the way to empower minorities is to elect more 11 Democrats? 12 THE WITNESS: When they should vote, they 13 should still have their communities of interest representing 14 their districts. Districts should not be about -- 15 constitutionally about drawing a partisan fashion. I know 16 that is the political process, the court has shown deference 17 to that political process; but communities of interest, be 18 they Hispanic immigrants -- I live in a neighborhood in 19 central Dallas that is largely Anglos that vote Democrat and 20 a lot of recent Hispanic immigrants. Those communities of 21 interest all ought to be kept together. 22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: And most maps do 23 have some bias naturally. You said there, the courts defer 24 to political issues to some extent and I assume you would 25 agree that the current plan that is in place, the courts, to

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Page 264 1 a large extent, deferred to lines that were drawn in '91? 2 THE WITNESS: The courts in the current plan 3 reviewed it to ensure it met constitutional muster. I don't 4 see this plan or any other plan that splits those 5 communities down the middle passing constitutional muster. 6 And if the courts will defer somewhat to 7 partisan process, but not when -- in addition to minority 8 communities, and I think Congressman Stenholm was brought up 9 earlier and (inaudible I do, I grew up there. He has 10 represented what they call out there in (inaudible), big 11 country -- well, for a long, long time. He is elected over 12 and over again in a heavily Republican district even though 13 he's a Democrat. The voters there like him. 14 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Where did you 15 grow up? 16 THE WITNESS: Brownwood. 17 Getting to my point, this district slices up 18 rural Texas and if you don't have a Charlie Stenholm there 19 fighting for the interest of that community of interest, 20 then they are disenfranchised, and they don't have the -- 21 Bubba doesn't have the constitutional protections that the 22 African-American class or Hispanic class has, but it is 23 still a community of interest and should be respected. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thank you. I 25 couldn't hear either. Thank you very much, Susan.

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Page 265 1 Linda Ethridge, Mayor of Waco. Are you 2 representing the City or yourself? 3 LINDA ETHRIDGE 4 My name is Linda Ethridge. I am representing 5 the concerns of the City, but I did mark on that paper that 6 I was here representing myself, because we will not be able 7 to act on our resolution until next week from the city 8 council. 9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: You are 10 representing yourself in your capacity as mayor? 11 THE WITNESS: In my capacity as mayor. 12 If that's suitably clear, I want to thank the 13 committee for the opportunity to speak. I would also like 14 to issue an invitation to the committee to come to the City 15 of Waco, Texas and to listen to the citizens there. The 16 city would be happy to assist the committee, if you could 17 extend that courtesy to our citizens. 18 And I do have to tell you that when I got up 19 at 5:00 o'clock to board a bus to come up here that it 20 seemed to me a rather unfortunate metaphor about what was 21 actually happening in redistricting, because we found that 22 in order to have a voice today, we had to travel great 23 distances to the seat of power. 24 There is not existing in our community -- 25 please, hear us on this. We are a midsized city. We are

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Page 266 1 114,000 people. We are in a county that has 220,000 people. 2 I certainly understand that people from communities of all 3 sizes have valid points to make about redistricting. 4 It is also true that if you live in a large 5 population center, you're likely to have a good chance at 6 being heard. But if you live in a midsized city like the 7 City of Waco, Texas, it is extraordinarily important how you 8 are aligned with your neighbors. 9 And one of the things that I have learned as 10 Mayor of Waco, Texas is how critical it is to deal 11 successfully with local issues. We must be able to 12 cooperate well with officials at the State level and at the 13 national level, and we have been very successful under the 14 present redistricting map to be able to advance our causes 15 well with bipartisan support. And we fear -- we fear that 16 with this plan that is proposed, our voice will just 17 evaporate into the pits. 18 We have worked well with our neighbors on 19 issues having to do with water quality, having to do with 20 economic development, to name just two that are 21 extraordinarily important to us. 22 And we cannot see how we can continue in that 23 same pattern under this new redistricting map. We fear that 24 our voice will no longer be heard and that our ability 25 towards meaningful coalitions will be lost.

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Page 267 1 Now, the other thing that I must tell you is 2 that I know this has been a real exercise of democracy 3 today, and I know there is partisans who feel very strongly 4 on both sides, but the point I am making to you about the 5 communities of interest is not truly a partisan issue. We 6 need to be aligned with like-minded neighbors, whoever that 7 favors and whichever party that favors. And this is not 8 good for Waco, Texas. This is not in our interest. 9 Now, since I am here, that's what I am going 10 to say on behalf of the City, because that has been the 11 position. So now I am going to speak just for me. 12 Unlike many people here, I don't have an R or 13 a D by my name. In Waco, when you seek office at the city 14 council level, when you seek to be mayor, are mayor, you 15 don't pick a party. And as it happens, I am an independent 16 voter, and I am one of the vast number of people in this 17 country who are in the middle. 18 I am so pleased that some of you are pleased 19 by that; but I can tell you that I have more in common with 20 people who describe themselves as moderate Republicans and 21 more in common with people who describe themselves as 22 moderate Democrats than I probably do with many of the fine 23 citizens who are in this room today. And what I do not 24 understand, when you say I have talked about communities of 25 interest and nonpartisan, what you are doing to me does not

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Page 268 1 make sense from the standpoint of being good stewards of 2 your political power. 3 In Waco, Texas, Republicans can get elected. 4 In Waco, Texas, Democrats, they are up against it but they 5 can be elected. 6 It seems to me that your plan goes further 7 than simply favoring your party. That it goes to -- would 8 act to effectively harm the two-party system and I don't 9 think that is in any way intended. 10 Now, I have a good deal of respect for the 11 House of Representatives, and I say that sincerely, even 12 after this horrible session that you have had. That was 13 difficult for you and difficult for the citizens. 14 But I think that what I, as a citizen of the 15 State of Texas, want from my representatives in your body 16 that I want you to be champions for the rights and the 17 rights of the State of Texas and I want to you to be 18 champions for the power of local authority in local 19 decision-making. 20 And I am personally very concerned when it 21 appears that the beltway politics in Washington take 22 pre-emanance over that. I do respect the fact that you can 23 redistrict, but I do know as from my own experience as an 24 elected official who has served for many years at both the 25 school board level, at the city council level, and now as

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Page 269 1 mayor, that that is never a good enough reason to do 2 anything. 3 Just because you can do something doesn't 4 mean that you should. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Isett has a 6 question for you. 7 THE WITNESS: Can I say just one thing first 8 and come back to you? 9 This political cartoon I want to share with 10 you because. It's a good graphic representation of how we 11 feel about communities of interest; and again, that's the 12 center of my remarks. If I could pass those up to you. 13 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. Given the 14 subject here, when you look at map 1180C to your left, vice 15 map 1151C, tell me what are the differences, in particular, 16 that disrupt the communities of interest in your community 17 and how -- what changes you might propose to 1180C that 18 would abrogate those differences. 19 THE WITNESS: The changes that I would 20 propose to this map is to go back to that map. 21 (Audience applause.) 22 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Specifically the 23 communities of interest, tell me specifically what 24 communities of interest are disrupted by the 1180C. If you 25 would answer my question.

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Page 270 1 THE WITNESS: I think that citizens who care 2 enough about their government to come and talk to this body 3 are really not in the minority. In terms of specific 4 communities of interest, we are a midsized city. There are 5 many smaller cities in our community. We work together very 6 well around issues, as I mentioned before. Probably the 7 most current issue is one having to do with water quality 8 issues. And we have been able to address that well here. 9 We are very fearful of what happens if we are 10 aligned with a very large population center, and we feel 11 like that media market is going to dominate, and while we 12 have a great deal of respect for all Texans, we understand 13 that as Texans, we have some things in common, we think that 14 midsized city, small town cities and rural interests are not 15 well-served by this map. 16 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Are you then referring 17 in particular to Johnson County? 18 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I was referring to all 19 of the communities of interest that are represented. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I guess I need to 21 understand what you mean by a larger metropolitan area. 22 THE WITNESS: Fort Worth. 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Which would be -- tell 24 me which communities in particular. Because as I read 25 1180C, it does not go to Tarrant County. Or I guess one

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Page 271 1 little corner does. Let me see. Let me see how much voting 2 population that is. 3 THE WITNESS: Jim, I couldn't hear you. 4 MR. DUNNAM: Mr. Isett, let -- if you look at 5 the southwest corner of Tarrant County -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I see that. I am 7 trying to get some specific -- let me just look at that real 8 quick. 9 MR. DUNNAM: While he's doing that, could I 10 ask a question, Mr. Chairman? 11 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: It's 52,000 out of a 12 156,000 congressional district. Do you believe that would 13 dominate the 240,000 in McLennan County? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't think you can single 15 out one little part of the redistricting map. 16 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I am trying to 17 understand your argument that the county would -- that your 18 representation out of McLennan County and a portion Bell 19 County and Bosque County that are currently in 17, or rather 20 currently in the 11th Congressional District, that includes 21 those counties, how that would be diluted by 50,000 in 22 Tarrant County? 23 THE WITNESS: I would have to look at all of 24 changes together; and my response to your question is -- 25 which may not please, but you but my response is --

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Page 272 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I just want an 2 answer. 3 THE WITNESS: I am trying the give you my 4 response, is you have to take into account not only who 5 comes in, who goes out; and my basic response is still that 6 we think we are far better served by the current 7 redistricting plan. 8 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. You live 9 in Representative Dunnam's district? 10 THE WITNESS: No, I did not. 11 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Did you vote in the 12 Democratic primary in that county? 13 THE WITNESS: I voted for George Bush. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: That's not the 15 question I asked. 16 THE WITNESS: It's the question -- the answer 17 I choose to give. I am an independent voter who has voted 18 most often in my voting life in the Republican primary. 19 In this last one -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I just asked a 21 question. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't mind discussing my 23 voting record. I rarely vote -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I am just trying to 25 understand the testimony that you gave us. I want a further

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Page 273 1 explanation. 2 THE WITNESS: I vote more often than not 3 conservative, but I did not vote for every conservative 4 candidate; and I vote for Democrats from time to time, and I 5 am very proud of that, and I am very proud of the fact that 6 I can work with people on both sides of the aisle. 7 I think that the only difference between me 8 and some other conservatives is that I will stand up here 9 and admit out loud that I don't always vote a straight 10 ticket. 11 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. I just 12 wanted a further verification of your independence. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: You must do a 14 good job as mayor, you brought your own cheering squad 15 today. 16 THE WITNESS: I would love for you to meet 17 other members of that cheering squad, so I would again 18 reiterate my invitation to you to come to Waco, Texas. And 19 one of the reasons that I really want you to think about 20 that it -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: One of your 22 hometown representatives has a question for you. 23 Mr. Dunnam? 24 MR. DUNNAM: This is really to answer 25 Representative Isett's question. There are over 250,000

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Page 274 1 people that live in the Tarrant County metropolitan, this 2 area that would be put in the new Congressional District 17. 3 That is what she's talking about. 260,000 people. 4 Also, Mayor Ethridge, Bell, McLennan and 5 Coryell Counties, it's my understanding that they have been 6 in the same congressional district for something like a 7 hundred years. 8 THE WITNESS: That's what I have been told. 9 I am not quite that old, but I have been told that. 10 MR. DUNNAM: And the map that is being posed 11 that's over to the side, not only does it split Bell County 12 and split McLennan, Coryell and Bell in half, it splits Fort 13 Hood in half. The largest base the State of Texas, correct? 14 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 15 MR. DUNNAM: And the communities of Bell, 16 McLennan and Fort Hood, we have two divisions or parts of 17 Fort Hood, the largest military installation in the United 18 States? 19 THE WITNESS: That's correct. And we work 20 very closely with our friends in Bell County around defense 21 issues. 22 MR. DUNNAM: We almost lost one ever those 23 divisions, which would have unemployed thousands of people 24 in the City of Killeen and Copperas Cove? 25 THE WITNESS: That's correct.

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Page 275 1 MR. DUNNAM: Because of Chet Edwards, we have 2 two divisions, only place in the nation. 3 One of the things we are concerned about, not 4 only are they going to split us off from the people that we 5 have been paired with for a hundred years, that's going to 6 hurt Texas. 7 THE WITNESS: Significantly. And the voters 8 in this district are your voters. They are conservative 9 voters. We deserve real consideration around this business 10 of community of interest. There has been so much partisan 11 talk that you are not, in my opinion, looking closely enough 12 at -- and I am addressing this specifically to the 13 Republicans on the committee -- I don't think you are 14 looking closely enough at what you are doing to your own 15 constituents. I think you need the rethink this. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond has a 17 question. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir? 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mayor, 20 Mr. Grusendorf said something about the cheering section. 21 Are there other some other folks from Waco? 22 THE WITNESS: We have folks from Waco here; 23 we have friends here from Killeen. I don't know whether 24 they are out there. Way back at the back. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you think if we

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Page 276 1 would have a field hearing in Waco or closer to Waco that 2 there would be a lot more people there? 3 THE WITNESS: There would be a lot more 4 people there. I think if you had a hearing in our town, you 5 would hear from many Democrats, you would hear from many 6 Republicans. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Did you know that 8 during the session, the regular session, I made a motion 9 before this committee the have field hearings not only South 10 Texas but in Waco and other parts of the State, and not a 11 single Republican voted for that motion? 12 THE WITNESS: I am was not aware of that. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Were you aware that 14 during the regular session, I offered an amendment on the 15 floor of the House of Representatives and not a single 16 Republican -- well, Ardmore was the only field hearing that 17 really counted, I tell you. But were you aware that not a 18 single Republican voted in favor of my amendment to have 19 hearings in Waco? 20 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I not know that. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me ask you -- 22 and I keep asking myself, I want to ask you, have you been 23 white all your life? 24 THE WITNESS: Let me think. Yes, sir. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, I

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Page 277 1 understand -- I mean, it's real clear to me why they don't 2 want to go to South Texas because we speak Spanish and all 3 that, but I keep asking myself, why don't these guys want to 4 go to Waco and rural West Texas? It appears clear to me, 5 the only thing -- the constituency they are more afraid than 6 minorities who favor the Voting Rights Act, are Anglo 7 moderates and Anglo Republicans who take oppose taking up 8 redistricting. Again that's why did they don't want to go 9 to Waco. 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Raymond, I must generally 11 chide you. I would not have you serve time with people in 12 our community. We do have Spanish speaking people who 13 reside there. I want to make sure you know that. But -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But they are more 15 afraid of you -- they are more afraid of white Anglo 16 Republican independents who oppose them on this issue and 17 support the Voting Rights Act because all they want to do is 18 weaken it in three years. 19 THE WITNESS: My plea to the committee is 20 that you will really listen to what I am telling you about 21 midsized cities, because I think it may be true and I know 22 that for not only Waco, but for other midsized cities around 23 the state, this is a particularly sensitive issue and it 24 doesn't appear to me, in looking at the map -- and, of 25 course, I have looked more closely as to how our map will be

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Page 278 1 changed than the rest of the state, but I am not at all 2 sure -- I don't think that just an issue for us and I would 3 really seek your careful consideration of what you do to the 4 fine citizens in our congressional district. 5 And we -- I want to say again, we favor the 6 existing map and we think that with that map, people of both 7 parties have a shot at being elected. Republicans already 8 have the edge. Please leave it as it is. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Tarrant County 10 Commissioner Glen Whitley. 11 GLEN WHITLEY 12 My name is Glen Whitley, I'm Tarrant County 13 commissioner. I am here representing myself. Do not 14 represent the county. And I want to speak in favor of the 15 process. 16 I think the plan will change. I think that 17 you are going to be begin this process on Monday, and I am 18 sure that -- we sent you to Austin to represent us, that you 19 will represent all of people of Texas, and I encourage you 20 to do that. 21 I also encourage you to look at community of 22 interest; and in doing that, I think that some of the lines 23 will change as you go forward with that process. 24 But I do encourage that there is a lot of 25 talk today about partisanship. This process has been a

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Page 279 1 partisan process since the time it began and it will 2 continue to be a partisan process. I think we all 3 understand that. So what I am hoping, that the delegation 4 we end up ultimately sitting -- we ultimately send to 5 Washington will be a delegation that accurately represents 6 the feeling of the majority of the people of the State of 7 Texas. 8 I think that is to spend less and to reduce 9 taxes and do those types of things which have been very much 10 a part of what we have seen. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow the 12 Commissioner to testify. 13 THE WITNESS: Tarrant County, as this map 14 represents, will be represent by five different 15 congressional districts. There are those people who say, 16 you know, you need to put it all into one and just have 17 maybe Tarrant County only have two representatives. 18 I am of the opinion really that having this 19 diversity helps us because it is that many more people we 20 can go and talk with about the needs of Tarrant County. So 21 again, I encourage you-all in the process and wish you best 22 of luck because I think you are going to need it. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon. 24 MR. VERNON: First of all Mr. Whitley, I know 25 to you are a hardworking commissioner and basically, as one

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Page 280 1 elected official to another from Tarrant County, we have 2 more than we can possibly get done to to serve the needs of 3 our constituents, right? 4 THE WITNESS: That's true, sir. 5 MR. VERNON: So why would it be that you 6 would impose on me extra time and extra work to do something 7 that doesn't need to be done that needs -- when we should be 8 addressing issues that are real and fundamental to people of 9 Tarrant County? 10 THE WITNESS: Because you went to Ardmore for 11 it, because you if had stayed in Austin and done your job, 12 we wouldn't be going into a special session. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow 14 Mr. Whitley to complete his testimony. 15 MR. VERNON: You are entitled to your 16 opinion. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow 18 Commissioner Whitley to be a witness. Just because you 19 don't agree with what he says, please give him the courtesy. 20 You have not heard anyone on this committee badger a 21 witness. Please allow him -- please allow him to answer the 22 question. 23 Commissioner Whitley. 24 THE WITNESS: I don't believe there's a 25 question up right now. I don't think there's a question, I

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Page 281 1 don't think. 2 MR. VERNON: I asked a question and you 3 answered the question. I didn't like the answer. I 4 disagree with your aversion that those of us went to Ardmore 5 weren't doing our job; but my point is this, that was only 6 four days. 7 What I want to talk about is during the next 8 month, when there are a lot of crises in Fort Worth, I am 9 going to be expected to be in Austin doing the business at 10 the bidding of Tom DeLay, to do something that undermines my 11 constituents. It may serve the best interest of your 12 constituents. 13 My request is this: Why you are here today 14 testifying to take up my time when we both know we have work 15 at hand in Tarrant County we need to address. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't -- I guess my point 17 would be, you can go down there Monday and you can get the 18 job in four days and then you can leave and go back home. 19 MR. VERNON: Mr. Whitley, you have never been 20 able to answer the question. Why are we doing this job? 21 Does it do more to protect the rights of my constituents? 22 THE WITNESS: I gave you my opinion as to why 23 you are doing the job, because you left and went to Ardmore. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ms. Davis? 25 MS. DAVIS: Commissioner Whitley, I would

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Page 282 1 like if to ask a question relative to the time of 2 redistricting. I keep hearing and keep wondering where 3 everyone get this notion that this is something that is 4 mandated by the people or by process. And since you have 5 articulated you think we ought to be doing redistricting, I 6 would be interested, your comments as to why we need to be 7 doing redistricting now versus later; and secondarily, do 8 you think that applies to the county commissioners as well, 9 do we think we need to redistrict them? 10 THE WITNESS: The decision is as to whether 11 or not to go through the process was a decision that was 12 made by the Governor and will be reaffirmed by the State 13 Legislature. If we believe that the county needs to be 14 redistricted, then at that point time we can do that. Just 15 as the legislature can do it and just as the legislature 16 will do it beginning on Monday. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You believe that the 18 Governor should have called the special session for 19 redistricting, congressional redistricting? 20 THE WITNESS: It's my opinion that the 21 governor has that responsibility and he can do as he sees 22 fit and I applaud the fact we are going the go through the 23 process. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's not a trick 25 question. I am just asking you, is it your position today

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Page 283 1 these things are important, as far as the record, Mr. Isett 2 was pointing out to you a minute ago, to establish so there 3 is not ambiguity, is it your possession that you think it's 4 important -- that the Governor should have called a special 5 session to take up the congressional redistricting? 6 THE WITNESS: I hate he's having to do it 7 because you chose too go to Ardmore. So because you-all 8 chose to do that, in my opinion, yes, what he is doing is 9 justified. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thanks. I am just 11 asking for the record. So it your is your position that you 12 thought the Governor should call a special session? 13 THE WITNESS: I think I gave that answer 14 twice. If you want to ask it one more time... 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let the record 16 reflect that the commissioner of Tarrant County thought the 17 Governor should call a special session to take up 18 redistricting. 19 THE WITNESS: The record will reflect that 20 Mr. Whitley did not say that, you said that, that's correct. 21 The records will reflect his response. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Hold up. I'm sorry. 23 Well, then, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, because then you do not 24 think he should have called the session? 25 THE WITNESS: I said that -- again, he would

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Page 284 1 not have had to call the session -- he would not have had to 2 call the session -- 3 (Audience outburst.) 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please let him 5 answer the question. 6 THE WITNESS: If you hadn't gone to 7 Ardmore -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The Mayor of Plano 9 asked the question. He can choose to answer the questions 10 the way he choose to answer them. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Then Commissioner, 12 did you know that -- did you know that two years ago when 13 the regular legislative session ended, that not a single 14 member of the House or Senate went to Ardmore, but that 15 Governor Perry at that time did not call a special session 16 for the congressional redistricting. Do you believe should 17 have called it at that time? 18 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe that was a 19 discussion that you-all were -- that was a part of it. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yes, sir, we did. 21 We took up -- congressional redistricting was discussed, and 22 debated in committee, discussed amongst members of the House 23 and Senate; so it was certainly on there and there were 24 editorials all over the state and your own state Republican 25 chairwoman --161What's this got -- this has to be a

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Page 285 1 question. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am asking, but I 3 am just giving him some back because he said there was no 4 discussion at the time. There was a lot of discussion, 5 Commissioner, at the time as to whether or not Governor 6 Perry should call a special session to deal with 7 congressional redistricting. Then your chairwoman, the 8 state party chairwoman --161Mr. Raymond -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No. So now that you 10 know that, now that you know there was a lot of discussion 11 as to whether or not Governor Perry, two years ago, before 12 anyone went to Ardmore should, you know -- was being 13 discussed in the public -- in the public, every state 14 newspaper in the state was discussing it. I know the Fort 15 Worth Star Telegram -- I assume you read it -- talked about 16 it back then. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please ask a 18 question, Mr. Raymond. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The question is, 20 given that it was being discussed then and no one went to 21 Ardmore, you think he should have called it back then 22 instead of two years later? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me ask you, are 25 there any minorities in your precincts, are there any

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Page 286 1 minorities in your precincts? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you believe as 4 Mr. Carey, who you may have heard. You probably know him 5 from Fort Worth, from Tarrant County. Do you believe that 6 he does the Republican party from Texas -- is offering 7 viable opportunities to for minorities? 8 THE WITNESS: I believe they are. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you think -- do 10 you think that, for example, because he left a little 11 earlier, he had a couple of more questions, do you think 12 that -- do you think that, for example, Governor Perry -- 13 let's just say Governor Perry, who is a Republican, appoints 14 a minority to State Supreme Court, that that is offering a 15 minority opportunity? 16 THE WITNESS: I believe it is. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You believe it is. 18 Are you aware that Governor Perry did that, that he 19 appointed a Hispanic to State Supreme Court? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You do know his 22 name? You don't know the Hispanic Governor Perry appointed 23 to State Supreme Court a year and-a-half ago and was running 24 for reelection, you don't know his name? 25 THE WITNESS: No, I don't know.

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Page 287 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You may or may not 2 know this, do you know that Governor Perry supported him as 3 he ran for election for the Republican nomination for that 4 position, he was appointed to in 2002 and that the person 5 who beat him in the primary only claim to fame was that he 6 absolutely opposed affirmative action for admission to law 7 school, and that decision has now been overturned and thrown 8 out by the U.S. Supreme Court. Did you know the Hispanic, 9 whose name you don't know and I do, when Governor -- 10 THE WITNESS: Do you know all of the 11 commissioner court members in Tarrant County? 161I don't 12 consider this to be questions anymore. I consider it to be 13 more than questions. I have extended courtesy to all the 14 State Reps here to ask questions, that in itself is 15 extending the hearing. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You didn't let me 17 finish. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are you going to 20 shut me down like Joe Crabb did? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, sir. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me ask my 23 question. I am asking if he thinks that this opportunity of 24 the Republican party wouldn't have even nominated -- the man 25 that was appointed to the Supreme Court, a Hispanic, by

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Page 288 1 Governor Perry, a man he didn't know, you may not know 2 either. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would like to ask 4 you to please -- and you know that I do not intend to shut 5 you down. You know that I have not ever done that. I am 6 trying to get to as many witnesses today as I can, sir. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I can ask my 8 question in less than 15 seconds, that will be my last 9 question. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You know as a 11 member of the committee you have the right and privilege to 12 ask questions. I am asking a courtesy, could we get the 13 question asked, and we have many witnesses to receive. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What I'm asking you 15 is, is that your definition of an opportunity for a Hispanic 16 from the Republican party, nominated by a Republican 17 governor, they're appointed to the bench and then the 18 Republican party won't even nominate that person for 19 reelection. Is that your idea of opportunity for 20 minorities? 21 THE WITNESS: All I can speak to to myself 22 and I support minorities, I support communities of interests 23 and diversification, and what the voters do, the voters do. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Did you support him? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

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Page 289 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What is his name? 2 THE WITNESS: He was on the Republican party 3 ballot. It was Eddie Rodriguez. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: He lost the primary. 5 Thank you, Commissioner. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Commissioner 8 Whitley, thank you very much for your testimony. We 9 appreciate you coming in today. 10 Representative Roberto Alonzo. And after 11 that it will be Pat Carlson, the elected Tarrant County 12 Republican party chairman. And after that will be Mr. Fred 13 Latham from the City of Killeen. 14 ROBERTO ALONZO 15 Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I am State 16 Representative from District 104. I have kept quite so far 17 to give my testimony regarding this issue. 18 First of all, as Chairman Grusendorf stated, 19 this issue does cause strong feelings. So strong, 20 Mr. Chairman, that 51 of us were willing to go to Ardmore, 21 and as I have been asked constantly regarding this issue of 22 redistricting, why do we do it? 23 We did it because under the rules it's 24 provided -- under the rules, that you to break a quorum, you 25 have to have less than 100 votes.

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Page 290 1 Throughout the session, we were told that we 2 do not count. That we were not needed. Yet, although, 3 there is 88 Republicans and 62 Democrats -- I am not very 4 good at math, but we would still need 100 people to have a 5 meeting. 6 Yes, we feel very strongly about this issue; 7 so strong that we know that DPS troopers went to our houses. 8 DPS troopers went to our offices. DPA troopers went to our 9 State House offices. And it caused a lot of tension and 10 friction, but we felt so strong about this issue that we 11 went to Ardmore under the rules -- under the rules. 12 And yes, we were subject to a warrant of 13 arrest. Warrants of arrest were issued for each member that 14 did not show up. 15 But we felt so strongly and we stated it 16 clearly that the issue was -- that this issue had already 17 been visited two years ago. That also, the same court -- 18 the same court that accepted congressional redistricting 19 also accepted the State Senate districts and the State House 20 districts that we now serve. 21 How is it that we question the congressional 22 districts, yet we do not question the House -- State House 23 districts and we do not question the State Senate districts. 24 Many people question the that by going to 25 Ardmore that we were going to be defeated. But just as we

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Page 291 1 have stated, we feel very strongly about this issue and we 2 stood our ground. We stood our ground because we thought we 3 were right. 4 The issue becomes whether we accept a new map 5 or we accept what is. We know under the new map -- under 6 the new map, that communities of interest will be split up; 7 that Hispanic community will be split up into congressional 8 district 5, 6, 24, 26 and 30. Whereas we would have some 9 power, we would less power now. 10 The issue becomes whether we want to accept 11 the new map and I say no. The question sometimes becomes -- 12 the question becomes, would we have a Hispanic district? 13 In the last series of hearings, not being a 14 State Representative at that time, I voiced support for 15 Hispanic congressional district. I brought over 2,000 16 signatures saying that we wanted a Hispanic district. But 17 that's not what we are talking about now. 18 The issue is do we accept what it is or do we 19 accept this new map as split up in five districts, and I say 20 no. I say no. Why are we doing this? Why are we doing 21 this? 22 We are doing this because back in May, the 23 Democrats won. Back in May the Democrats won. The 24 Democrats won because we debated it, we dealt with it and we 25 broke a quorum and we stopped it. We stopped it.

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Page 292 1 Here we go again. We are also questioning 2 the issue of how we are spending our money now and I think 3 it would be a waste of the taxpayers' money to spend over 4 $1.7 million on another hearing. This issue has already 5 been debated two years ago. It was debated in the Supreme 6 and I think we did debate enough that we don't need to deal 7 with it again. 8 I would ask two things, Mr. Chairman, of the 9 audience and the people participating. I know it is going 10 to be a long process, but I encourage you to say; because at 11 the end of the day people are going to ask, how many were 12 for and how were against. Yes, it's going to last all day 13 but I encourage you to stay. And as I finish my comments, 14 just for the record, I would ask how many people are for 15 redistricting, say aye. 16 (Audience responds.) 17 THE WITNESS: How many are opposed to 18 redistricting, say no. 19 (Audience responds.) 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 21 FRED LATHAM 22 Mr. Chairman, and distinguished members of this Committee, 23 thank you for the opportunity to speak. My name is Fred 24 Latham. I am a City Councilman from the city of Killeen. 25 My purpose here is to speak as a member of that counsel. We

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Page 293 1 passed a Resolution at this last Tuesday's meeting that was

2 to provide the Committee with information and understanding

3 that the communities of interest of Bell County, Fort Hood

4 and Killeen, indeed, the testimony will show that the

5 counties of Bell, Coryell and McLennan are insupportably

6 linked and related. A Congressional redistricting effort

7 that separates this communities of interest would be a clear

8 and direct violation of state and federal tradition,

9 interests and principles of law.

10 The city of Killeen has stood with our fellow cities,

11 counties, and Fort Hood on many occasions to support such

12 projects and issues as water, transportation, the state

13 veterans cemetery, and we are currently working on a joint

14 civilian/military airport just to name a few.

15 The city of Killeen feels like we should oppose any

16 Congressional redistricting plan that does not recognize

17 these communities of interest in Fort Hood, Bell, Coryell

18 and McLennan Counties. Our recommendation was that the

19 Texas Legislature recognize and adopt the federal court

20 approved Congressional Districts as so ordered in Balderas,

21 et al vs. The State of Texas on November 14th 2001, and set

22 forth in Plan 01151C. Then further, if the Texas

23 Legislature is determined to conduct congressional

24 redistricting committee hearings, that at least one such

25 hearing should be held in central Texas, and the is city of

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Page 294 1 Killeen also stands by Waco ready to facilitate that for 2 you. 3 Like the Mayor of Waco was expressing to you, 4 we are a mid size city also. We have 100,000 people, and 5 issues that over the last few years -- I am a third 6 generation Bell County resident. I have been on the counsel 7 for ten years and we have worked diligently as hard as we 8 can to prosper and let our city grow. It is important you 9 have a Congressman that is involved in these issues, and 10 active in these issues, that will come to bat for you. 11 In the 12 years that I have served in the 12 city government that has been the case with our current 13 Congressman. For that reason we believe that keeping the 14 existing District 11 in tact truly represents our community 15 of interest. 16 The proposal that is before you today that 17 has been put forth by the Committee separates part of 18 Killeen and takes out part of Fort Hood, Coryell County, and 19 it goes south dividing the interest. Our joint use airport 20 that we have been working on diligently for ten years is 21 also in this new district. We would not have gotten to this 22 point of success had it not been for Congressman Edwards. 23 Fort Hood is the largest military installation in the free 24 word. It has a $3.1 billion dollar impact on the State of 25 Texas, and with the other military installations we feel

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Page 295 1 like this is an issue that is of great importance because 2 the bracket for 2005 will come up here very shortly, and I 3 think that's a win win for Texas, and we continue to fight 4 for these military installations. 5 Today as I speak over 20,000 soldiers 6 stationed at Fort Hood are in Iraq. They couldn't come to 7 this hearing, but I hope that we can represent some of them 8 and their families. We have pledged to be the watch care 9 for them, but as a city councilman I have seen -- we went to 10 Austin for the hearings, but unfortunately we were not able 11 to speak that night because the plan changed three times in 12 front of me in about four hours. It is very scary to see 13 where we are going. The politics of Washington has almost 14 disunited this country. I see it happening in Texas and the 15 legislature. 16 I also know that when you have contentious 17 hearings and very high emotions that some things can get you 18 in trouble. In fact, I was defeated in my reelection after 19 a hearing such as this where you have a lot of emotion. 20 But, you know, I think what I am hearing today is people are 21 trying to say to you each individually, that this issue is 22 very important. That communities of interest is very 23 important and we would appreciate you remembering that, and 24 again our city stand is that we would like to keep the 25 district as it is now.

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Page 296 1 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Members have any 2 questions? 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you, Mr. Latham. 5 Chair recognizes Lynnda McLoy. The Chair 6 will show that she was -- there you are. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 8 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Yes. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think it would 10 will helpful if I could suggest something. Would it be okay 11 for you to read maybe twenty or thirty names real quick so 12 people out there know they have a chance? Some people were 13 turned away and had to leave earlier because the doors were 14 locked. There are folks, of course, that have been waiting 15 for a while. Would that be okay? 16 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Sure. After Ms. McLoy 17 we will have Scott Cosper from the Killeen City Council. 18 Gilda Garza is from Collin County. Art Brender from Fort 19 Worth, Tarrant County Democratic Chairman. So if you-all 20 would be prepared. Ms. McLoy. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Maybe 15. Would 22 that be okay, 15? 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Joe May, then 24 Denise McNamara, Deborah Angell Smith. Charles R. Rose, 25 Thomas G. Jones, Derrick Evans, Mike Dupree, Donald Hill,

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Page 297 1 Larry Duncan, Edra Bogle.

2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The only -- thank

3 you, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to say as a courtesy to

4 our colleagues, and I hope the audience would understand,

5 but I would like to suggest that we allow House members who

6 are here the courtesy of testifying now if they would like.

7 I mean if he wants to stay all day, that's fine, but I

8 just... He said he is fine.

9 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you.

10 Please proceed.

11 LYNNDA MCLOY

12 Thank you, gentleman. I appreciate the opportunity to

13 speak. My name is Lyynda McLoy and I am on the city council

14 in Haslet. I am not necessarily representing the counsel

15 but I do have concerns from the counsel. Can you hear me

16 okay? I am in favor of the redistricting to accurately

17 reflect the way our area votes, and I think mostly though I

18 have a couple of comments to make.

19 I believe it is important for Haslet to maintain its

20 current representation and that is Representative Kay

21 Granger in District 12. Representative Granger is on the

22 Transportation Committee. This committee is very important.

23 Transportation is very important to our little city that

24 sits in the northern Alliance corridor. It is a city that

25 is part of the communities of interest in northern Tarrant

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Page 298 1 County. We are currently experiencing a development boom in 2 our area and Representative Granger has been very supportive 3 of the transportation and we are looking at mass 4 transportation out in our way. 5 It is also important for Haslet to remain as a 6 member of the communities of interest in this northern 7 Tarrant county as we are now. Those are really the only two 8 points I have to make. I did notice on the map -- Haslet is 9 not very big. We have about 1200 people in our little town, 10 and it looks like you have -- on the map it's split. I 11 noticed that where I live we are in District 12, but 12 actually where our city hall and part of our old town, it is 13 Representative Burgess' district, District 26. If these 14 lines are not final I would hope that you would allow the 15 entire town to be in District 12, Representative Granger's 16 District. 17 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Are there any 18 questions? 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you are in favor? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are in favor, 22 right, of taking up congressional redistricting; is that 23 correct? 24 THE WITNESS: I am in favor of taking it up. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you are in favor

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Page 299 1 of this map, but not the split in the town; is that right? 2 THE WITNESS: I am mostly concerned about my 3 area. I am concerned about Haslet being split in half 4 because it's such a small town. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's a town of 1200? 6 THE WITNESS: 1200 people and we have 7 approximately 12 square miles. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Are you also aware 9 that this map, that there are 12 precincts at issue in Texas 10 that are cut in half? 11 THE WITNESS: I see a lot of them. I do see 12 that a lot of them -- yes, I do see that a lot of them are 13 split into different sections, but a lot of them don't have 14 the small population that we do. 15 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. Thank you 16 for your time. 17 Chair recognizes Scott Cosper from the city 18 of Killeen speaking on behalf of the city of Killeen against 19 the plan. 20 SCOTT COSPER 21 Good evening, Representatives. I come before you today. I 22 am Scott Cosper. I am City Councilman in the city of 23 Killeen representing my city. I would like to start off by 24 saying I am very disappointed to have to be before you 25 today. I believe that redistricting is a painful enough

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Page 300 1 issue once a decade without bringing it up mid decade. I

2 believe all of us, yourselves, local elected officials as

3 well as the Congress elected officials, their staff and

4 their constituents have many important projects that they

5 could be working on otherwise. Instead, we are here. I

6 think that that directs our focus from some of our

7 very important projects to try to react to midyear

8 redistricting, but however here we are, and so I would like

9 to just talk for a moment about what is proposed.

10 As I understand this the current map meets all of the

11 Voting Rights Act requirement. The Attorney General Gregg

12 Abbott made it clear that redistricting is not required nor

13 mandated, and the court order neither anticipated or

14 suggested that the legislature should revisit this this

15 decade. As you know, our former Mayor Latham, current

16 council member, entered into the record a Resolution from

17 our city counsel in opposition to redistricting.

18 One of the biggest issues with the maps that we have seen

19 so far is every one of them either splits communities of

20 interest or -- well, I will just start off by giving you --

21 the counties that make up District 11 all have similar

22 common interest. Bell County has be in the same

23 Congressional District as McLennan and Coryell for over a

24 hundred years. The redistricting plans made public today so

25 far splits Bell County into two Congressional Districts or

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Page 301 1 it separates us from McLennan County. It moves all or part

2 of Bell County into a district with a population base either

3 in San Antonio or in Dallas Fort Worth which would put the

4 county residents in a district with residents with whom they

5 have no common interest, and it would result, in my opinion,

6 in a significant loss of representation.

7 The city of Waco, I think Mayor Ethridge did a very good

8 job of expressing our community of interest. A lot of

9 communities of interest concerns, and Waco is a community of

10 interest of Killeen as well as Temple and Copperas Cove, and

11 all of those are supporting communities to the largest

12 military base in the world which is Fort Hood. I believe

13 that to change District 11 would be a disservice to the

14 citizens of Texas and central Texas. Not to be redundant

15 with many of the testimonies we have already said -- we have

16 already heard, I will cut it short and just say that I

17 absolutely concur with Mayor Ethridge's concerns and that I

18 would be glad to entertain any questions.

19 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Members, are there any

20 questions?

21 Thank you, Mr. Cosper.

22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Gilda Garza. LULAC

24 member of Collin County. Democratic member city

25 council from --

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Page 302 1 THE WITNESS: McKinney, Texas.

2 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: McKinney Texas, thank

3 you. Being against.

4 GILDA GARZA

5 Good afternoon. My name is Gilda Garza and I am from

6 McKinney Texas. I come before you as the first Hispanic

7 female to be elected to the city of McKinney to the City

8 Council. I would also like to add that I am here as the

9 representative of the Collin County Democratic Party and as

10 a member of the League of United Latin American Citizens. I

11 would also like to add that I am not here to represent the

12 city of McKinney. However, I would like to represent the

13 constituents in my district.

14 As being the first Hispanic female to be elected, my

15 district is composed of low income minority neighborhoods

16 and population, and I would like to say that when we took

17 the census in 2000, I was concerned about redrawing the

18 lines in the city of McKinney, and it really concerned me

19 because I knew they were going to -- I was going to be

20 included in part of one of the elite neighborhoods, that is

21 not generally voting in my district, but the bottom line is

22 that I was afraid that this low income minority population

23 was not going to be able to be represented equally, and that

24 they were going to take some of my ethnic constituents away

25 or be expanded into an area that would not be equally

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Page 303 1 represented. 2 I also would like to add that just in saying 3 that -- that the money that is going to be -- and so I am 4 here to oppose the redrawing of the lines. I would like to 5 say that the $70 million that -- or approximately that is 6 going to be spent in redrawing these lines could be used for 7 more important issues such as -- such as issues that would 8 benefit the unemployed. With this economy the way it is 9 there is no employment to provide that insurance. I would 10 like that money to be applied for insurance for the 11 children, for senior citizens, for all of those that 12 unemployed. I would like that money to be used a little 13 more wisely on education to prevent the fast growing dropout 14 rate. Like for that money to be used for education for 15 college students and also for vocational and national 16 programs such as the National Job Corps. 17 In collusion, I would just like to say that 18 as the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". 19 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Any questions? Thank 20 you, Ms. Garza. 21 Chair recognize Art Brender. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, before 23 our next witness starts could I submit this -- I have some 24 testimony that was handed to me. Phyllis Flowers, President 25 of Waco, Falls and McLennan County NAACP who had to leave.

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Page 304 1 If I could just submit that. I am not sure if there is a 2 witness affirmation form but if you could just put that in 3 the record. 4 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: It's entered in the 5 record. 6 ART BRENDER 7 Mr.Chairman, my name is Art Brender. I am Chairman of the 8 Tarrant County Democratic Party. I am speaking on behalf of 9 the party. I was once a Lt. Junior Grade in the Navy but I 10 am not speaking for the Navy. I know emotions are a little 11 high and I want to say to Pat Carlson, I'm sorry if she felt 12 that people were unduly emotional and therefore rude to her 13 in her presentation. She is a very nice lady. We get along 14 very well. 15 I have got to admit I feel the same way. I am kind 16 of shocked by the Republican Party in here suggesting that 17 we should have quotas for Congressional redistricting. It 18 just kind of gets us a little more excited I think than we 19 ordinarily would be. 20 I want to address I was one of the lawyers involved 21 in redistricting, although I was involved in House 22 restricting, not specifically Congressional redistricting, 23 although there was a lot of overlap in those cases. I want 24 to address basically the problem -- the legal problem with 25 this redistricting plan, which I have every reason to

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Page 305 1 believe is going to be the districting plan because of the

2 swift way we have only had two meeting in the great State of

3 Texas, and limited at that, to address these issues.

4 First of all, the prime and always considerations before we

5 even had Reynolds vs. Simms and one man, one vote. One

6 person, one vote, if you will, however you would want to

7 phrase it was to recognize subdivisions and city boundaries,

8 traditional boundaries and communities of interest, and this

9 plan just doesn't get it for Tarrant County. In fact, I

10 would submit it disenfranchises Tarrant County of at least

11 one district for this reason. There is really only one

12 Congressional District in Tarrant County where Tarrant

13 County is going to have any influence. With all due respect

14 to our good friends and citizens to the east, a big portion

15 of Tarrant County goes that direction, Dallas and Dallas

16 County District. The other portions go south almost to --

17 almost to Brazos County, through to McLennan County and then

18 up to the Red River almost. And that district reaches

19 into -- the district that goes up to Cook County reaches in

20 inner city Fort Worth, into the very heart of Fort Worth.

21 Takes in a good portion of Representative Burnam's district

22 which is, if I am not mistaken, about 60 percent Hispanic,

23 and there has never been as far as I can research it back to

24 reconstruction a congressional district that split out that

25 significant portion of the city of forth worth. And, in

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Page 306 1 fact, in doing so puts those people in -- once again in with

2 people who have no community of interest whatsoever with

3 inner city residents, and particularly there really isn't

4 any type of justification for that other than the political

5 one that I mentioned before.

6 The other thing it does is it basically takes away

7 from the black minority populations in Tarrant County which

8 are basically concentrated in the inner city portion of east

9 Fort Worth, and to a great extent in Arlington. Arlington

10 is 40 percent minority. It takes those and divides them

11 into three -- arguably three, maybe two districts, but what

12 it really does is keeps them from having the influence that

13 they had in any other district basically going back as far

14 as I remember this stuff going back and I have been involved

15 with it a long time because I was with Don Gladden, and I

16 will take issue with who he carried when he filed the

17 redistricting suit for House District in 1974. And at that

18 time, by the way, not only did we elect two minorities for

19 the first time since reconstruction in Tarrant County, but

20 we also elected the first Republican since reconstruction in

21 Tarrant County.

22 Redistricting, if done correctly, is not partisan. It's

23 fair, and this is not fair. It does not recognize any

24 traditional communities of interest.

25 It, in fact, tears apart long-standing

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Page 307 1 communities. It has no regard for the city boundary lines 2 which have always been taken into consideration. Once 3 again, because it divides this large metropolitan area up 4 into five different districts, it's not really regarding any 5 political subdivision, not even the county itself. It's not 6 necessary. It's illegal I think under both Constitutional 7 guarantees, not to mention the Voting Rights Act which is 8 more strict in its interpretation of this sort of thing. I 9 think really what we are doing is not only creating a 10 political turmoil, a great deal of concern. If you look 11 at -- I know the Fort Worth Star Telegram has railed about 12 this all the whole legislative session to do with the 13 community and other was other things. Other concerns that I 14 don't have to bother mentioning; school finance and 15 insurance for working families that can't afford it and 16 many, many, other pressing needs that we know we have. To 17 get involved in a political brouhaha which I think is also 18 constitutionally illegal and unjustified by any traditional 19 standard by which we have measured redistricting going back 20 as far as this state goes back. 21 One word about this process. I have -- and I 22 don't know, Pat maybe has gone, but I have given her a hard 23 time about a certain phrase that appears throughout Tarrant 24 County on some judicial placards and yard signs for 25 Republicans candidates. It's got their name and it says

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Page 308 1 "Swift Republican Justice", and I have railed about. I have 2 event sent a few letters to the editor about the fact that I 3 think this means disregarding constitutional rights and 4 civil liberties and that sort of thing. 5 But this process bothers me in that there is 6 certainly not an attempt -- if this is swift Republican 7 justice, it's not right any more than it is for a 8 Congressional candidate for this legislature to run through 9 in very short time. I understand it's a 30 days session, 10 but maybe it's only 19 days according to the Governor's 11 schedule from what I read in the paper, I don't whether this 12 stuff is true or not, to try and run through and redistrict 13 in a situation -- we haven't been able to do it for two 14 years, and quite frankly the court plans -- somebody asked 15 one of the previous speakers did the court plan, didn't that 16 satisfy you? Well, I say no. I don't think the court plan 17 is exactly like I think it ought to be, but I certainly 18 think it's a whole lot fairer than this or any of the plans 19 that are being drawn to provide, you know, quotas by 20 political parties. That's all I have, thank you. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Chair recognizes 22 Mr. Grusendorf. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Brender, you 24 indicated maintaining communities of interest together are 25 important to you?

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Page 309 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: And you seem to 3 think that the court ordered plan does a better job of that 4 than the plan over here? 5 THE WITNESS: It's not perfect. Don't get me 6 trying to defend it, but I do think it is a much better plan 7 than this, yes. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I guess my 9 question revolves around Tarrant County, more specifically 10 Arlington. I believe Plan 1180 keeps Arlington whole, 11 whereas Plan 1151 splits Arlington. 12 THE WITNESS: I don't believe it's -- well, 13 once again Arlington is kept largely within that one, but 14 it's matched with so much other stuff that it's not 15 really -- I mean I don't think Arlington can have much say 16 when you go all the way down and take in everything down to 17 what, just north of the Brazos. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: What's the size 19 of the congressional district's population? 20 THE WITNESS: Roughly 650,000. 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: What's the 22 population of Arlington? 23 THE WITNESS: Roughly 250,000, something like 24 that. 25 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Probably about

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Page 310 1 300,000. 2 THE WITNESS: I don't recall it being that 3 large. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: It's a pretty 5 good chunk of a congressional district, isn't it? 6 THE WITNESS: It is a fairly good chunk. I 7 don't think it is 350,000. I could be wrong. I think 8 that's including parts of Mansfield and so forth the way we 9 did the redistricting, but I could be wrong about that. It 10 could be approaching at the three hundred but I don't think 11 it's three hundred. That's all I have. 12 By the way, Mr. Grusendorf, to answer your 13 question a little bit more fully. I don't think you have in 14 Arlington -- it honors a political boundary, yes, but not 15 necessarily community of interest in terms of you have got a 16 lot of communities of interest in there that quite frankly I 17 would argue ought to be linked, but for instance the east 18 Grand Prairie -- or west Grand Prairie portions have 19 traditionally been in the Arlington districts. They are in 20 the same school district as Arlington, and I think they have 21 the same communities of interest as inner city Arlington. 22 They are largely minority precincts, and as you can see 23 these are split off into a Dallas Congressional District, 24 and once again dilutes their influence, so in terms of 25 communities of interest, it may -- you know, it may

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Page 311 1 recognize the political subdivision, but it sure doesn't 2 recognize communities of interest because those are split 3 out just like what happened in House redistricting where 4 they took those out of that House district and put them into 5 Hurst, Euless, Bedford. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Looking at the 7 printout we have here, District 6, a portion of District 6 8 would be in Tarrant County, which is largely Arlington, 9 386,000. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but that includes more 11 than Arlington. That includes Mansfield and all that. 12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Shows Arlington 13 population within District 6 as 332,950. 14 THE WITNESS: I will accept what you say, but 15 once again, just looking at this map it looks like to me 16 that there are some Arlington precincts that have been cut 17 out of that would be my guess. Look at as you go down Great 18 Southwest Parkway, that little dip in there. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Well, that's 20 Grand Prairie over there. That's following the city 21 boundaries all the way down. 22 THE WITNESS: I think -- you may be right, 23 but I think that -- I think that my recollection they did a 24 lot of stuff on that. I am looking back that some of that 25 is actually Grand Prairie and some of -- you wiggled around

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Page 312 1 that line like you did the House lines, but I might be 2 wrong. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: It's following 4 the city boundary. 5 THE WITNESS: I will take your word for it, 6 sure. 7 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Go ahead, 8 Representative Vernon. 9 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you, Mr. 10 Chairman. 11 Mr. Brender, in keeping with my thank you to 12 Pat Carlson, thank you for representing me in that 13 litigation so that we can see if we can't keep DPS off our 14 tail. 15 THE WITNESS: The DPS is authorized to do 16 what they are authorized by statute to do, which doesn't 17 include enforcing House rules in my opinion. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't know if you 19 can see the map of Tarrant County from there, but obviously 20 Mr. Grusendorf who represents Arlington is really interested 21 in Arlington, and I represent Fort Worth, and I am the only 22 member that represents only Fort Worth, and I am real 23 interested in the fact that Fort Worth is divided into four 24 Congressional Districts under this plan. Doesn't that 25 represent a disrupting of communities of interest?

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Page 313 1 THE WITNESS: It does. Certainly it does, 2 and it does in particularly since, you know, we are looking 3 at political subdivision boundaries which has already been 4 considered and communities of interest. Those things sort 5 of jive with regard to Fort Worth. 6 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: If you are looking at 7 municipal boundaries it breaks it up into four lines, but if 8 you are looking at exactly what you and Mr. Grusendorf were 9 talking about where the eastern edge of the county is 10 actually in the blue congressional district which is the 11 24th. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 13 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: What that does do is 14 protect the lines between Arlington and Grand Prairie, but 15 do you recognize that what it also does is it cracks the 16 minority population in the eastern portion of the county. 17 Many of these Grand Prairie precincts are if not majority 18 minority, heavily minority. 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: And many of the 21 precincts in Arlington immediately adjacent to that are if 22 not majority minority, are heavily minority. In fact, isn't 23 it your experience that a legislative district if we go and 24 reopen the process, that we could actually draw a House -- 25 Texas House of Representatives legislative district that is

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Page 314 1 majority minority in Arlington and Grand Prairie within 2 Tarrant County? 3 THE WITNESS: That's not only true, that 4 actually happened. Representative -- it's '93 or '96 -- 5 '93, that district went from being 70 percent Anglo to 6 52 percent minority in the 2000 census, and it needed a few 7 extra people in it, but if you added those in it was still a 8 majority minority district until redistricting removed those 9 west Grand Prairie precincts which like I said are in the 10 same school district. The lines are really nonexistent in 11 terms of how they look at things out there, into Hurst, 12 Euless, Bedford district really in which had no interest. 13 In fact, they can't even get there very directly to vote, 14 and that's exactly what I am talking about here. It 15 fractures the communities of interest with regard to 16 minority population, and I would argue really doesn't do too 17 much to Arlington because of what it is linking it with down 18 to the south. 19 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: So is it your 20 testimony that if there was a sincere, honest attempt to 21 maximize impact on the minority community here in Tarrant 22 County, we would, in fact, reopen the redistricting process 23 in the Texas House of Representatives and create not one, 24 but three minority districts? 25 THE WITNESS: There is no question about

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Page 315 1 that. That is the way it should be. 2 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Okay. Well, thank 3 you. Ms. Carlson was very uncomfortable about talking about 4 the pink area here which is inside Loop 820. The pink 5 portion which is the 26th, which is dominated by Denton 6 County, a suburban county at this point, is almost entirely 7 blue color working class and heavily minority. Don't you 8 think that this represents an example of cracking such that 9 my constitutes on the north side, and not only that but the 10 Poly area in east Fort Worth are no longer represented by 11 somebody from Fort Worth, but rather they would be 12 represented by a Republican from Denton County? 13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, whoever it is from Denton 14 County doesn't actually go into -- what is ironic, I mean 15 somebody had to draw this with an intent to draw -- remember 16 the line -- the real squiggly part down there actually 17 separates two different communities. A black community to 18 the west and Hispanic community to the east, so somebody 19 actually separated out. I don't have the exact data on 20 this. I don't know whether they actually separated a split 21 precinct, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did just to 22 pull out minority -- Hispanic minority voters from that area 23 and put them into in essence the Denton, Cook County, Parker 24 County district. 25 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Is it you belief,

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Page 316 1 based on your experience doing redistricting litigation, 2 that this would represent a cracking and probably violates 3 the Constitutional rights of my constituents in the inner 4 city District 90? 5 THE WITNESS: I am of the opinion it 6 definitely does. 7 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Is it your 8 observation that due to redistricting my constituents in 9 inner city Forth Worth, Legislative District 90, no longer 10 have representation in the Senate because the lines were 11 drawn such that we once again cracked the minority 12 populations and they are not able to have an influence on 13 the outcome of any state Senate race in Tarrant County? 14 THE WITNESS: I think that's true, yes. 15 Evidence of that effect was admitted in court a year ago 16 last November. 17 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: And this is real 18 important. So if we were sincere in wanting to maximize the 19 minority opportunities in Tarrant County we would reopen the 20 redistricting process in the state Senate -- 21 THE WITNESS: And the House. 22 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: -- and create a 23 minority opportunity district in both the Senate and House. 24 One other question. I don't know if you 25 heard the testimony of Mr. Reby Cary who was defeated in the

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Page 317 1 Democratic primary after endorsing a Republican 2 Gubernatorial candidate, but Mr. Carey testified that he 3 opposed some of the redistricting plans in the '70's, and 4 Mrs.Fisher who was a -- if not technically a party, simply a 5 technician in that redistricting battle, pointed out to me 6 that he, in fact, actively opposed the redistricting plan 7 that created the two minority districts in Tarrant County. 8 Could you elucidate on that history from the '70's? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, just briefly what 10 happened was there was the Gladden plan as it was called. 11 The plan as I mentioned before eventually put in place by 12 the United States Supreme Court. It was Escalante vs. White 13 was the name of the case. It was filed in 1973. Initially 14 the plan was presented approved and stayed by the court. In 15 the meantime the legislature met again and instituted its 16 own single member district plan which maintained the 17 incumbents and allowed for one open seat that ends up being 18 a minority seat. A minority was elected to it. Then the 19 court went back and said once again that that plan was 20 unconstitutional, and in 1978 put into effect what was 21 called the Gladden plan, and Reby Carey opposed that plan. 22 I believe -- I don't remember whether he testified in court 23 about it. I know he openly opposed it. He might have 24 testified in court about it, which actually opened up two 25 minority districts in Tarrant County, and if I am not

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Page 318 1 mistaken in '78 elected two Republicans. Representative 2 Grusendorf might be able to enlighten me on that because I 3 think he was around in those days. I know that one was 4 elected in Arlington and I believe there was another one 5 elected -- maybe just one the first time. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I think we 7 elected more Republicans than that in '78 as a result of 8 redistricting. I remember since I lost a job out of that 9 process. But I do want to think the widow of the late Don 10 Gladden for being here with us today and continuing to 11 battle for redistricting. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Brender, 14 talking about Fort Worth, how many congressional districts 15 or what congressional districts are in Fort Worth, the city 16 of Fort Worth now under court ordered plan. 17 THE WITNESS: Basically -- oh, under the 18 court ordered plan it's basically divided into two. There 19 may be portions of one other one that are involved, but 20 there is no more than three districts that comprise Tarrant 21 County at this point. 22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Which districts? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, the Number 12 that Kay 24 Granger represents, and 24 that Martin Frost represents are 25 the two main districts that are comprised. Now, Martin has

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Page 319 1 a little bit in the southern part, but I think his district 2 is mainly -- it's not a huge portion. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Six and 26 also 4 have portions of Fort Worth, and a small portion -- I think 5 you are talking about I think there are 64,000 people in 6 District 6 within the city of Fort Worth. 7 THE WITNESS: How much you say, six -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Sixty four, 9 almost 65,000. 10 THE WITNESS: I agree -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: So currently 12 under the court ordered plan Fort Worth is -- a part of Fort 13 Worth is within the Congressional 6, 12 24 and 26. 14 THE WITNESS: Twenty six is very little as I 15 recall. 16 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Its' the 17 smallest. 18 THE WITNESS: Right, as I understand it. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: My numbers show 20 7,500 and 64,006, 270,012 and 132,024. 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I would agree with that. 22 Once again, 7,500 is pretty small if you are talking about 23 the total makeup of Fort Worth. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: But four 25 different congressional districts?

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Page 320 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. And like I said, if I 2 had to draw that line I wouldn't have drawn it that way but 3 that is way the court drew it. 4 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Brender, let me 5 finish up right quick. Earlier today we had testimony from 6 the Mayor of Waco, Linda Ethridge, and representative Dunnam 7 gave comments relative to her testimony out of some 8 questions I was asking about the voting strength of Tarrant 9 County in what would be District 20... 10 THE WITNESS: It's 17 I think in the new map 11 if I am not mistaken. Is that what you are talking and? 12 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Your comments are 15 related only to Tarrant County in the testimony you have 16 given relative to Tarrant County, even though you add a 17 portion of a Congressional District, your testimony is that 18 that really does not represent any part of Tarrant County 19 and breaks up communities of interest? 20 THE WITNESS: Part of 17 that goes -- is that 21 what you are taking about? 22 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Yes. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I don't 24 think that there is real community of interest between that 25 portion of Tarrant County and the rest of 17, I agree.

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Page 321 1 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Representative Dunnam 2 in clarifying my question or in trying to give answer to my 3 question said that he was looking at the metropolitan 4 statistical area. 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Which included I guess 7 counties to the south and slightly to the west of that, and 8 his concern was that his county would be dominated by the 9 Fort Worth area. Would you comment on that? Because that 10 seemed to be at odds. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, I think -- actually, 12 right, I think what he says is accurate. What he is saying 13 is this: And what I think she was saying is that the media 14 markets up there pretty much control what is going on in 15 Johnson and Ellis Counties which are big portions of that -- 16 in other words, the statistical area, if I am not mistaken, 17 include those two counties because they are largely 18 urbanized at this point, and so what you've got is -- I mean 19 we don't get anything from Waco. There is not a TV station, 20 or newspaper, or anything that comes up that way, and yet 21 those are all dominated by the Dallas/Fort Worth media 22 market. 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Sure. He called them 24 suburbs of Fort Worth. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, I would agree that

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Page 322 1 basically because like for instance Burleson which 17 2 includes parts of Burleson is in two counties. It's in both 3 Johnson and Tarrant County. And basically that whole thing 4 extends right down 35 into -- you know, when I said Ellis I 5 think it's Johnson and Somervell County is in 17. Ellis is 6 over in the sixth, but once again those get carved up like 7 that, and to extent that Johnson county is, you know -- 8 yeah, that's a part of that media market, and once again I 9 think you got real conflict of interest between what is 10 going on in a highly suburban area, just like when I was 11 arguing this, when you take the District 12, and you take 12 all this pink suburban area out here and you mix it with 13 inner city Fort Worth, what you are really trying to do is 14 trying to dilute the inner city. That's kind of what you 15 are doing with this is you are diluting Waco's influence by 16 creating a largely metropolitan suburban area. 17 You know, what I am saying is that is going 18 to be what -- I think the intent of whoever drew this was 19 the hope that they would have much more higher voter turn 20 out and highly suburban area to offset the more rural area. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Again, I guess what my 22 point is and what I would like to ask for a clarification on 23 is that it seems to be at odds with what Representative 24 Dunnam testified, because Representative Dunnam's concern it 25 seems was that those communities of interest through Johnson

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Page 323 1 County up into Tarrant County represented communities of 2 interest such that it would affect the district that he 3 would live in. 4 THE WITNESS: Certainly. I agree with him 5 that certainly they are just totally diverse. In other 6 words, the idea that central Texas, you know, Coryell and 7 those little counties in there are an entity of themselves. 8 They have nothing to do with Fort Worth, which, you know, 9 really Johnson County and Fort Worth are pretty linked. I 10 mean the big controversy in Fort Worth has been a freeway 11 which actually goes all the way right down in through 12 Johnson County and we are paying for a good portion of it. 13 That's been a subject. So they are linked. I mean he is 14 right, those things are pretty linked there, but once again, 15 you are not giving Tarrant County much of it, but you are 16 giving them, Johnson and that area down there, a big voice. 17 I haven't looked at the numbers on this map, 18 so I don't know what you have got in the way of numbers, but 19 it certainly is not linking the communities of interest, the 20 central Texas communities, which would be, you know, 21 basically McLennan, Coryell, Hamilton, Hill County, all of 22 those things tend to -- those are -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I think he gave a 24 number of about 265,000, 256 something like that. 25 THE WITNESS: Okay.

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Page 324 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I need to come 2 back one more time. 3 THE WITNESS: Sure. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Would you say the 5 city of Fort Worth has a significant impact on Congressional 6 District 12? 7 THE WITNESS: As it is drawn now? 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Uh-huh. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Under current 11 law? 12 THE WITNESS: I think it does, yes. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: What about 24? 14 THE WITNESS: In both 12 and 24, yes. 15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: So you think the 16 city of Fort Worth has significant influence over both of 17 those? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think so. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: The record and 20 the printout showed that in 12 you have got 270,000 people 21 that live in the city of Fort Worth and Congressional 22 District 24, 192,000 people that live in the city of Fort 23 Worth, but you seem to think for some reason -- and my 24 question comes to Arlington, you didn't think that 332,000 25 people in Arlington would have a significant impact on

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Page 325 1 District 6. I am sort of wondering how you justify that. 2 THE WITNESS: Here's what I'm saying, and we 3 did this, we put on about a day's worth of testimony just on 4 this. I think there is two Arlingtons. I think you have 5 got two completely different Arlingtons. You have old 6 Arlington, the inner city Arlington which has become 7 virtually minority. And then you have got the suburbs to 8 the south that basically link up pretty well with the 9 Mansfield area, and that's the sort of tuggle and struggle 10 that you have had in that -- both in school district, the 11 city council, all those sort of things. Those sort of 12 tensions are going on. 13 And basically that's what the testimony was 14 in court, that basically that district which was at one time 15 one legislative district is the bulk of Arlington now -- 16 like I said it's about 40 percent minority, and you take the 17 working people, you take the GM plant. You take all that in 18 there, that's a little different Arlington. It's closer to 19 west Grand Prairie, and those things have traditionally been 20 linked. They were linked from 1978 on in the legislature. 21 They are linked by the same school district. That is a 22 solid community of interest. That is what is linked up now 23 in the Martin Frost Congressional District. What's linked 24 up and has a same community of interest I think in Martin's 25 district are suburban areas of south Arlington, Mansfield,

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Page 326 1 southwest Fort Worth, and the emerging areas in Ellis and 2 those counties down there. That really is a fairly compact 3 community of interest. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I am wondering if 5 that is true, Mr. Brender, about the Arlington and Grand 6 Prairie ties. Why did the Dallas Morning News when they 7 attempted to try to do a combined newspaper and report the 8 same Grand Prairie and Arlington, that didn't go over well. 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know. All those -- you 10 know, those newspapers kind of expand out. It went well 11 some ways and didn't go well in other ways. You will have 12 to ask them about their business plan. I don't know about 13 their politics. 14 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Where do you 15 live? 16 THE WITNESS: I live in east Fort Worth, 4121 17 Hampsire. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Bender, I was 19 just listening to Mr. Grusendorf breaking down the numbers 20 on Tarrant County and Mr. Isett Johnson County, and I am 21 curious. I can tell you in Laredo as I was thinking about 22 it, the last time the census was done two and-a-half years 23 ago, maybe three years I guess, there has been a lot of 24 growth, a lot more people. 25 THE WITNESS: Right.

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Page 327 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you see some of 2 that? I know we got a bad economy, but do you still see 3 some growth going on in your area or Tarrant County? 4 THE WITNESS: Certainly. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So there are more 6 people maybe than there were two and-a-half years ago. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So then how does 9 that -- so then when we get into the issue of one man one 10 vote -- 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: -- tell me, I am 13 wondering, us taking up redistricting again two and-a-half 14 years later when there has been growth, then how do you do 15 districts when you don't really know what the numbers are? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, that's a good point, but 17 even a more technical but much more valid point is this: 18 One of the things we ran into in Arlington -- go back to 19 Arlington, is the citizen voting population because that's a 20 big contention. In fact, the state was planning for a lot 21 of Hispanic population, not citizens, and for the Voting 22 Rights Act you actually have citizens instead of population. 23 So you do look at how it affects voters, so 24 you have a citizen voting population. We did not have those 25 numbers when the redistricting case was done, because they

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Page 328 1 simply hadn't been done. I think they are done now. 2 Arlington has had traditional -- we put on some evidence 3 about this -- a much higher percent of citizens because 4 there was actually programs in the bomber plants back in the 5 50's to bring in immigrants to work in those plants and to 6 naturalize them and so forth than what you get in some of 7 the big cities like say, Houston, and they were using sort 8 of just an overall generic state wide number because we 9 didn't have any. It was all ten years old situation. When 10 they redistrict now those numbers could be very significant 11 in how they are looking at things under the Voting Rights 12 Act, and like I said particularly with regard to minority 13 impact districts just like this one we are talking about in 14 Tarrant County. I think that's going to be an important 15 factor if this thing ends up at the courthouse. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 17 testimony. 18 Mr. Joe May. After Mr. May is Denise 19 McNamara. After that is Deborah Smith. 20 JOE MAY 21 Mr. Chairman. Members of the House Redistricting Committee 22 on congressional redistricting. Thank you very much for 23 allowing me this opportunity to speak before you. I hope 24 you stay in Dallas if you are not from the area and that you 25 will return back in the foreseeable future.

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Page 329 1 My name is Joe may and I reside at 2206 North Garrett in

2 Dallas, Texas. I want to take this opportunity to share

3 with you my views on the intent of the Voting Rights Act and

4 the impact that redistricting has had in the Hispanic

5 communities of North Texas in general and Dallas County

6 specific.

7 Today in Dallas 43.5 percent of all Hispanics

8 over the age of 25 and older have less than a ninth grade

9 education. 66.6 percent have less than a high school

10 education. In Dallas, Texas Hispanics have the highest

11 percentage of residents in poverty among the major groups.

12 49.4 percent of all residents in the city of Dallas who live

13 in poverty are of Hispanic origin. 69.8 percent of the

14 households living in overcrowded conditions in the city of

15 Dallas are of Hispanic origin.

16 Thirty four percent of all children attending

17 DISD schools return to a home where English is not spoken,

18 yet 70 percent of them are American born. Despite the

19 statistics Hispanics in Dallas County have the smallest --

20 are the smallest consumers of public assistance programs.

21 The majority of Hispanics in Dallas, Texas live in

22 isolation. 56.2 percent of all Hispanics in the city of

23 Dallas over the age of five years old speak Spanish and

24 cannot speak English very well. 49.7 percent of all Dallas

25 residents without telephones are of Hispanic origin.

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Page 330 1 Now, let me share with you an example of the 2 injustices that are created which a community is voiceless. 3 Lucerio Esperanza Poquillo with her 13 children left Laredo 4 and came to Dallas in search of a better life. The 5 Poquillos lived at the corner of Santa Maria and Polk 6 Street, two blocks from where Condra Rodriques grew up. 7 Mr. Raymond, I believe that's in your district. 8 In World War II Lucerio fought with the 1st 9 Armored Division. He went from Morocco, to Casa Blanca, 10 North Africa, Sicily, Palermo, Rome, France the Rhine River, 11 and at Stuttgart he was wounded for the third time and could 12 not continue on to Berlin. He received four Bronze Stars, a 13 Silver Star and a Purple Heart with two oak leaf clusters. 14 He was a 100 percent war incurred disabled veteran. On 15 February 2nd of the year 2001 Mr. Poquillo left us and is 16 interred at DFW National Cemetery. Immediately after his 17 death the Veterans Administration stopped the disability 18 payments for Esperanza even though she qualified for 19 disabled American widow's benefits. 20 Mrs. Esperanza lives in Congressional 21 District 24, as do most of her 13 children, 49 grandchildren 22 and 22 great grandchildren. We know who represents District 23 24 in Congress, but who represents Esperanza who is 76 years 24 of age, in poor health and does not speak English. Her 25 struggles with justice with the Veterans Administration have

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Page 331 1 been a lonely road. She has been trying to restore her 2 benefits for two years and four months and there is still no 3 end in site. Who is responsible for helping this lady, and 4 at what point does somebody accept this responsibility? 5 One has to wonder how many more Hispanics in 6 the city of Dallas are similarly situated. These are 7 compelling reasons for drawing a North Texas congressional 8 district where Hispanics can elect a candidate of their 9 choice. Given the demographics which point to the creation 10 of a Hispanic permanent underclass, the projected Hispanic 11 growth, and the resentment that breeds when you are 12 voiceless, the need for drawing a district where Hispanics 13 can elect a candidate of their choice supersedes party 14 impowerment when it comes to protection. 15 Now let me the visit with you on the intent 16 of the Voting Rights Act. The Voting Rights Act was not 17 created so a Hispanic could be elected. The Voting Rights 18 Act was not created to elect or protect incumbents. The 19 intent of the Voting Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act was 20 created to give communities with aggrieved status the 21 opportunity to elect candidates of their choice. 22 Several courts in the past have granted 23 Dallas County Hispanics aggrieved status. Given the 24 Hispanic growth in the city, today it is possible to draw a 25 Hispanic district that protects communities of interest that

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Page 332 1 is cohesive and is functionally compact all within the 2 boundaries of Dallas County. This district would not be in 3 conflict with the present African American district. And if 4 you are a Democrat, the sum of matter for North Texas would 5 remain the same, because a Hispanic district is a Democratic 6 District. 7 Two years ago -- the other question before I 8 forget. Okay, because congressional districts do not 9 require residency, anyone could run for them and anybody 10 could move into the districts. Two years ago I drew 11 numerous congressional districts through a redistrictng 12 process. They were all in excess of 60 percent Hispanic 13 population, and the party of preference in every one of 14 those districts was Democrat. I want to share with you two 15 of those districts. In one of those districts I want you to 16 note that I also drew an African American district, and I 17 want you to note that the percentage of African Americans in 18 my African American district is higher than what is 19 presently on the map that is right now, so let me take this 20 opportunity now to share with you those maps that I have 21 drawn and give you an additional map of the Hispanic 22 population of this city, and if you have any questions I 23 will be glad to answer them for you. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, sir. We 25 will put these maps into the record for you.

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Page 333 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Members have any 3 questions? 4 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Are you finished with 5 your testimony? 6 THE WITNESS: Sir? 7 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Are you finished with 8 your testimony? Ready for a question? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Islett. 11 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: You are speaking for 12 redistricting, yes? 13 THE WITNESS: No, sir, I don't necessarily 14 agree with the map that has been proposed. I don't 15 necessarily agree with the map that we are presently under 16 because in both maps Hispanic neighborhoods are split into 17 four and five district. 18 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So you would 19 support -- 20 THE WITNESS: I don't support a new map that 21 would be over 60 percent -- not 50 percent because those are 22 deceiving maps. That is over 50 percent. I have given you 23 two maps. One that would split the Arlington area to go 24 into Fort Worth, that would be 64 percent, but I have also 25 given you a map that is all within Dallas County that is

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Page 334 1 61 percent Hispanic and that would not impact on the African 2 American district that would be adjacent to it. There is 3 possible to create two North Texas Democrat districts alone 4 in Dallas County. If you want to stretch your imagination 5 you can probably get one out of Fort Worth too. 6 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: On the witness 7 affirmation then you would ask us not to keep 1151C, the map 8 to your right, but not necessarily adopt 1180 but open that 9 process. 10 THE WITNESS: Open the process. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That's why we are 12 having him clarify. 13 THE WITNESS: All I am trying to say -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The written record 15 that he is taking down will be the final record. 16 THE WITNESS: -- is that neither map does 17 justice to the Hispanic community in Dallas County. 18 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So you would like to 19 see -- 20 THE WITNESS: I would like to see a new map 21 drawn and you can keep everything else the way you-all want 22 it. You can draw out of Dallas. Just draw us a district 23 that is over 60 percent Hispanics where we can elect the 24 candidate of our choice. Doesn't have to be a Hispanic. 25 Doesn't have to be a white. Doesn't have to be anybody.

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Page 335 1 Let us elect our own candidate. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Earlier today we had 3 Gilda Garza who spoke on behalf of LULAC who said -- and she 4 was from McKinney. City councilwoman from city of McKinney, 5 and she said on behalf of LULAC that they did not want to 6 reopen redistricting. 7 THE WITNESS: I have been involved in civil 8 rights for over thirty years, California, Mississippi Delta. 9 I started getting involved in Hispanic voting rights in the 10 '80's. When I first started getting involved with it, I 11 remember the lines when I was going to city hall and 12 testifying for Hispanic districts, and there was four 13 Hispanics out to oppose the enfranchisement of Hispanics, 14 and there was Hispanics voting, so it doesn't -- that 15 doesn't necessarily, you know, surprise me. The key is you 16 have to remember that I have rights and they don't have any 17 rights to violate my rights. 18 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: If we do open that, 19 and I assume that we are going to have in Committee next 20 week an opportunity to look at new maps and draw new lines, 21 and members in the legislature will have input into that 22 process. Would you then -- how would you -- how would you 23 answer the argument that if we decrease Hispanic 24 representation in some of the current districts to create 25 another Hispanic majority district opportunity district,

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Page 336 1 that that violates their constitutional rights or that it is 2 retrogression is what we heard earlier today. 3 THE WITNESS: I don't know that. I don't 4 know that you would have an argument there. The pure 5 population itself would not be an issue. For example, let 6 me give you -- and you saw those maps. That district that I 7 drew at 64 percent Hispanic, there are 64.4, and the year 8 2001 was only I think was only 32 percent registered voter. 9 So if you submit -- if you say you got 30 percent, you 10 really have ten or 15 percent Hispanic voters, so it's not 11 necessarily -- I mean it's not an argument. There is no 12 impact. 13 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Okay. Thank you. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think it is still 16 not clear what your position is here, because I certainly 17 understand. I am listening to you say that you think 18 Hispanics should have more opportunity districts. That's 19 the lingo -- the legal lingo we use, right? In other words, 20 Hispanics -- your goal is that Hispanics would have more 21 opportunity to elect the candidates of their choice; is that 22 correct? 23 THE WITNESS: I am not here speaking for 24 South Texas or any other Hispanic part of the state. I am 25 speaking for Dallas County, and I am speaking to ask you to

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Page 337 1 draw a district where Hispanics can elect a candidate of 2 their choice. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So again, I will 4 narrow it to Dallas County. So your position is, what you 5 would like is by your definition a Congressional District in 6 this area that you feel Hispanics can elect a candidate of 7 their choice; is that correct? 8 THE WITNESS: That's pretty much what I want. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think that they 10 can do that now, but we will disagree on that. However, 11 what is important for the record is whether or not you are 12 neutral, or you are in favor of opening up this process, or 13 you are opposed to opening it up, and you have been involved 14 if politics longer than I have. You have been around this 15 longer than I have. So you speak Spanish too? 16 THE WITNESS: Mui bien. 17 (Mr. Raymond speaking Spanish.) 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: For the benefit of 19 the audience that doesn't speak Spanish we have an 20 interpreter. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I can interpret it 22 if you would like? 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please do for the 24 benefit of those who don't speak Spanish. I would 25 appreciate knowing what it is that you are saying.

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Page 338 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What I said was 2 there is a saying in Spanish, Mr. Chairman, that they are 3 putting the finger in our mouth just to play with us, just 4 to pacify us. Like, you know, you give a baby a pacifier. 5 You are not really giving them a bottle of milk. You give 6 them a pacifier so they believe they are drinking milk but 7 there is nothing there, and so I know that I am right 8 because I have heard Tom DeLay on TV. I have seen all of 9 the statements he's made. I have seen his staff gathered 10 there drawing maps in the back room. I have seen that DeLay 11 went to the Governor's mansion and day and-a-half later the 12 Governor says we are going to have a special session. I 13 have seen Tom DeLay camped out -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is there a question 15 of Mr. May? 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yes, there is. I am 17 giving him information about, you know, the question I am 18 about to ask so he will have some understanding for the 19 basis of the question. Because I have seen all of that, it 20 is clear to me that -- and because he hasn't hidden it. He 21 hasn't been coy about it. He says, "I want five to seven 22 more Republican Districts, period." If you open this up, 23 understand that that is the goal and that is what they want 24 to do. 25 Now, as I said earlier, and I think I

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Page 339 1 understand more now why because of the Voting Rights Act 2 coming up in three years, but if you open this up, not only 3 will you not get what you want, all right, you are not going 4 to get what you want which is a district that has more 5 Hispanics. By your definition, a district that would allow 6 Hispanics to have an even greater chance of electing the 7 candidate of their choice. Not only would you not get that 8 here in Dallas, but I do care about the whole state, and the 9 rest of the state we all lose even more. 10 So my opposition -- I absolutely admire your 11 commitment for so many years to try to bring more quality to 12 citizens of -- all citizens of this state, but I also have 13 to say that you need to make it clear for the record, and 14 now that you know, maybe you did already, maybe you didn't, 15 that the only reason they want to open this up, not because 16 they want to give more minorities a chance to have more 17 opportunity districts. It's because they are trying to get 18 DeLay five to seven more votes. Understanding that, you are 19 trying to help -- you need to clarify do you want to help 20 open it up so they can do that or you don't, or if you are 21 neutral. 22 THE WITNESS: Let me just make this perfectly 23 clear why I am here. I am here because Hispanics in North 24 Texas and Dallas County were aggrieved in the past, continue 25 to be aggrieved, and if there is an opportunity for me to

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Page 340 1 bring them out of the aggrieved status and make it a 2 permanent Hispanic district where they can elect the 3 candidates of their choice, I will do it and make no mistake 4 about it. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I totally understand 6 that, but you won't have that opportunity with Tom DeLay 7 driving the process. You do understand that, don't you? 8 THE WITNESS: No. Let me tell you, I been 9 around the block, like I said, perhaps a little longer than 10 you have in this business. This is not the end. You are 11 going to draw your maps. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. May, they would 13 request that you speak more directly into the microphone. 14 THE WITNESS: The maps are going to be drawn 15 here. From what I can tell from this group there is no 16 civility to begin with, so there is not going to be anything 17 agreed to. It doesn't matter. What is going to happen is 18 that the next process is where I hope to come in and make 19 the difference. Not at this level. I am playing out this 20 game right here because I know that it is mandatory that I 21 have to give you a map, and I know that you have to reject 22 it, and that will give me the aggrieved status and I can go 23 into the courtroom and attempt to change what I want to 24 change. I don't know what else -- you know, that answers 25 what you want me to say, but this --

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Page 341 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. May, you are 2 not here to try to give him the answer he wants you to give 3 him. Please give us your answer. 4 THE WITNESS: Telling you what my feelings 5 are on this matter. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are not here to 7 give me the answer I want you to give me. The only answer I 8 want you to give me, Mr. Chairman, for your information is 9 the answer you want us to put on your witness affirmation 10 form. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I think he has 12 tried to clear that up three different times. 13 THE WITNESS: Draw your own conclusion. I am 14 trying to give you what my feelings are. From there make 15 your own conclusion. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay, then I would 17 like to know, Mr. Chairman, how do you intend to classify 18 him? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: He checked -- 20 Mr. May checked neutral. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Isn't take correct, 23 Mr. May? 24 THE WITNESS: Sir? 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Isn't that correct?

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Page 342 1 THE WITNESS: I think I put in there 2 something because I wasn't -- I didn't answer any of the 3 three. If you could look at it, I put another -- I wrote 4 something in there. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, it says 6 neutral or neither. Neither is fine. Thank you. I 7 think -- I don't know any other way to classify it except 8 that it's in the record the way you want it. Neither, or 9 against, neutral. 10 THE WITNESS: Whatever you want to do, it's 11 up to you. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. Would 13 you like to change, alter or do anything with it? 14 THE WITNESS: No, no. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: At this time the 16 Chair recognizes Denise McNamara. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr.Chairman, can I 18 submit two more things for the record here? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Certainly. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Two folks over here. 21 I don't know if they have witness affirmation forms. They 22 had to leave. One was Willamena Gladden from Fort Worth and 23 the other is Ely Davis, President Dallas Chapter of Texas 24 Voters of Black Democrats. Submit those two for the record. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We will put that in

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Page 343 1 the record. If they have witness affirmations we will put

2 them with them. If not, we will put them in this record.

3 I appreciate the cooperation that the

4 audience has had in their testimony. I realize the

5 testimonies have gone longer because of the questioning, but

6 I do appreciate the witnesses and their presentation, and we

7 are plowing through this. We have got about 300 left so,

8 Ms. McNamara.

9 DENISE MCNAMARA

10 Thank you, Representative Marchant and Members of the

11 Committee. I am glad to be here today to express my views

12 about why I am in favor of redistricting.

13 In 2001 the Democrat controlled House failed to fulfill its

14 Constitutional duty to pass a congressional redistricting

15 plan. Editorial boards across the state encouraged Governor

16 Rick Perry at that time to show leadership by calling a

17 special session to address the issue. Many papers correctly

18 argued that restricting is fundamentally the legislature's

19 responsibility, and lamented the fact that lawmakers had

20 abdicated that responsibility to an appointed federal court.

21 Others lambasted legislators for protecting the incumbent

22 politicians through inaction instead of drawing

23 congressional districts that reflected the new realities of

24 Texas. Because Democrats defaulted on their duties a

25 federal court stepped in. In its ruling creating the

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Page 344 1 current lines, the federal court said that it was left the

2 unwelcome obligation of performing in the legislator's

3 stead.

4 The court drew a map that met the bare minimum legal

5 requirements while making sure it was not, quote, "avoidably

6 detrimental to members of Congress of either party holding

7 unique major leadership posts." In other words, it would

8 make an incumbent protective plan. The federal court

9 admitted that the interim map it imposed was not intended to

10 reflect Texas voting behavior or minority population growth

11 across the state. In fact, the court stated that creating

12 additional minority, or Republican, or Democrat districts in

13 accordance with population and electoral changes since the

14 last census is a quintessential legislative decision.

15 In a recent opinion on the legislature's role in

16 congressional redistricting in 2003, Attorney General of

17 Texas, Gregg Abbott, wrote that the United States Supreme

18 Court has repeatedly stated that legislative reapportionment

19 is primarily a matter for legislative consideration and

20 determination because an elected legislature, not an

21 appointed federal court, is the institution best positioned

22 to reconcile the conflicting goals in the people's name.

23 General Abbott also stated the words of another court that

24 had taken up redistricting after a legislative body failed

25 to act. "Like our predecessors faced with the task in the

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Page 345 1 1990's, we, the court, encourage the General Assembly and

2 the Governor to work together to adopt any plan that can

3 improve upon what we have done. They are, of course, in the

4 best position to do so. A legislature is in the best

5 position to do so, not a court. We have done our best in

6 the interim."

7 "Federal court involvement in state matters is necessary at

8 times, but allowing congressional redistricting to go

9 directly to the courts without a special session would be

10 irresponsible" said one of the editorial boards for a Texas

11 newspaper. Lawmakers should not shirk their jobs to redraw

12 the district lines every ten years. There was a headline in

13 a Texas newspaper, Abdication of Duty. Congressional

14 redistricting should not start with the courts. The

15 legislative map ought to reflect the Republican surge over

16 the last ten years. The GOP now holds, as we all know,

17 every state wide elected office, and overwhelmingly

18 supported Governor George W. Bush for President. Thank you.

19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ask you a question

20 or two. Do you in your reading of that opinion, did you see

21 that the Supreme Court ordered that there would be no more

22 redrawing the maps or did you read in there that the Supreme

23 Court and the lower courts left it open for the legislature.

24 THE WITNESS: It was very clear it was left

25 open for the legislature to redraw.

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Page 346 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Okay, thank you. 2 Mr. Raymond. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I didn't get your 4 name, Ms. 5 THE WITNESS: Denise McNamara. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Denise, and where 7 are you from? 8 THE WITNESS: Dallas. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Ms. McNamara, the 10 editorials that you were -- newspaper articles or editorials 11 that you are quoting, what are the dates on those? 12 THE WITNESS: They were right immediately 13 following the 2001 session, so I am sure it was summer of 14 2001. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you are quoting 16 editorials that were calling for a special session on 17 congressional redistricting two years ago? 18 THE WITNESS: Right. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: And you think that 20 is the basis for why we should do it right? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe at the time 22 Governor Perry did not do it because he was confident that 23 the legislature would fulfill its duty in the 2003 session 24 and since we have not done that -- 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: If you believe that

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Page 347 1 I have got a bridge to sell you. So in other words -- in 2 other words you are okay with Governor Perry shirking his 3 responsibilities and not calling us into a session for a 4 year and-a-half? 5 THE WITNESS: Representative Raymond, I am 6 shocked that you would talk about shirking a responsibility. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I promise you, you 8 are not as shocked as I was when the Chairman of this 9 Committee said he didn't want to go to my hometown because 10 people didn't speak English. So you agreed? So my question 11 is -- 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you mind 13 clarifying who the Chairman of the Committee is? 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The Chairman of the 15 Committee that made that -- I don't know, is it racist or 16 what is it, why don't you clarify it for me? 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The Chairman -- I 18 believe that you are referring to Chairman Crabb in a 19 meeting we had. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So it was Chairman 21 Crabb made the racist remarks. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am asking you 23 which Chairman. 24 Could you ask Ms. McNamara a question? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It would be funny if

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Page 348 1 it wasn't so sad, but so I am just asking you, you believe 2 that it was okay for the Legislature -- for the Governor 3 that is, not to call us into session for a year and-a-half; 4 is that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you thought it 7 was okay for us to have a court ordered plan for a year 8 and-a-half, but then after that you thought we should take 9 it up again? 10 THE WITNESS: I believe the legislature and 11 Governor Perry -- well, not the legislature, but I believe 12 Governor Perry was attempting to be frugal with the 13 taxpayers money. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please show Ms. 15 McNamara the courtesy of allowing her the courtesy of 16 answering the questions without any ridicule. 17 THE WITNESS: It's obvious the reason we are 18 having the problems is Democrats, it's not Republicans. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Have to ask, do you 20 write for a sit com? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, would 22 you please refrain from -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What is your job? 24 You have a job? What is your profession? 25 THE WITNESS: I am a small business owner.

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Page 349 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Small business 2 owner. She might be a writer. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ms. McNamara, I 4 would like to ask you a couple of questions. Was there a 5 reasonable expectation if Governor Perry had called a 6 special session of the legislature following the last 7 legislative session, was there a reasonable expectation that 8 he could have got a redistricting plan out of the House or 9 out of the Senate, and was there a reasonable expectation he 10 would have been able to -- in his -- was there an 11 expectation that in a special session there would be enough 12 votes there to pass it? 13 THE WITNESS: There is no way that that 14 legislature would have done that. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ms. McNamara is a 16 National Republican Party Committeewoman, and she has 17 expertise and she is an elected official. She is elected 18 state wide and she deserves our respect and she deserves to 19 be able to answer the question. 20 THE WITNESS: Would also like to make one 21 more point if I may, Representative Marchant, and that is 22 nowhere today have I seen Tom DeLay. He is not here. I 23 have seen Martin Frost and I have seen Eddie Bernice 24 Johnson. They are obviously representing Eddie Bernice 25 Johnson and Martin Frost.

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Page 350 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You do believe you 2 have the expertise to make this kind of testimony? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett. 5 This lady has as much right to testify as 6 anyone. She is an elected official. She deserves the 7 courtesy that everyone else has been shown. I just said 8 that. I just said that Mr. May was a Justice of the Peace. 9 THE WITNESS: We are talking at the same time 10 which is hard for the Court Reporter. I agree to read into 11 the record who she is. She is among the elected officials 12 testifying. If I misrepresented her I apologize. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett. Mr. 14 Isett has a question. 15 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I think, Mr. Chairman, 16 my questions were going to be similar to yours. Given that 17 the House did not pass a congressional redistricting plan in 18 '01. Given that it was not taken up in the Senate at all. 19 Given that the House and Senate redistricting lines were 20 canceled or not acted upon in the legislative session in 21 '01. With that background I think that she answers 22 correctly that there was no reasonable expectation that a 23 special session would have produced lines of any sort. That 24 no bill would have passed, and I think that is your 25 question, and that is what you are conveying to us.

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Page 351 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, you 5 have had several questions. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am going to ask 7 you a question about your reasoning. I think I need to make 8 a clarification here. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. We are 10 still on the elected officials. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am one. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please ask a 13 question. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I think for the 15 record, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Isett and I think you both just 16 said reasonable expectation that because you had a majority 17 of Democrats in the House and you had a majority of 18 Republicans in the Senate, and a Republican Governor, that 19 it was your reasonable expectation we could work something 20 our two years ago. I disagree with that. I don't think 21 that you have to be all one party to reasonably work 22 something out. And further, I agree he shouldn't have 23 called a special session last summer because on the Senate 24 side during the regular session it was Mr. David Sibley, a 25 Republican, who kept saying let's not pass anything. Let's

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Page 352 1 not pass anything. Let's not pass anything. We should 2 have, because it is reasonable -- most people in Texas, 3 Mr.Chairman, would expect a Democratic majority in the House 4 and a Republican majority in the Senate with a Republican 5 Governor to sit down reasonably together and come up with 6 something. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam. 8 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I have a question if 9 she has not left for good. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ms. McNamara, would 11 you like to return to the podium? 12 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: While she is 13 returning I will say, Mr. Chairman, I was on the 14 Redistricting Committee last session and there was a very 15 strong likelihood that we could have passed a congressional 16 redistricting plan. We obviously were consumed with the 17 state House and the state Senate process, and that's why the 18 House Committee, which was chaired my a Republican, voted a 19 plan out at the end of session in May of 2001 so that we 20 would have the opportunity to go back and some place to 21 start immediately upon a special session should Mr. Perry 22 call one, and that's what I recall being on the committee 23 last session. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 25 opinion, sir.

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Page 353 1 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: The witness. Because 2 there were a lot a assumptions made about why Mr. Perry did 3 this or that, and are you aware that -- you quoted a number 4 of newspaper sources. In the Fort Worth Star Telegram, 5 July 12th of '01, Mr. Perry said it would be a waste of 6 taxpayer money to call a special session on redistricting. 7 Are you also aware that Ms. Weddington in the 8 Dallas Morning News almost two years ago today, said, "That 9 Texans will likely be better served by impartial Judges with 10 regard to redistricting." 11 What was your involvement in the legislative 12 process in 2001? 13 THE WITNESS: I simply asked my elected 14 representatives to pass a fair redistricting plan. 15 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: And were you a party 16 official or were you... 17 THE WITNESS: I was Republican National 18 Committeewoman. 19 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: In 2001? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: That's all I have, 22 Mr. Chairman. Thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, very 24 much. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

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Page 354 1 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I guess parliamentary 2 information -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. It's 4 appropriate to discuss the motion. Mr. Raymond discussed 5 the motion and it's appropriate for Mr. Isett to discuss it. 6 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Should this motion be 7 acted on in the affirmative, would be there anything that 8 precludes the questions? The question period would extend 9 past the five minutes. Most of the testimony has been under 10 five minute. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That's correct. 12 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: There would also be 13 nothing that would preclude any member of the panel of the 14 Committee to ask for an extension of time should the witness 15 need that time? 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Correct. Okay, 17 there is a motion before us. There is an objection to the 18 motion before us to limit testimony to five minutes. The 19 clerk will call the role. 20 MR. SHEWMAKER: Marchant. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Aye. 22 MR. SHEWMAKER: Grusendorf. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Aye. 24 MR. SHEWMAKER: Isett. 25 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Aye.

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Page 355 1 MR. SHEWMAKER: McClendon. Raymond. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: There being three 4 ayes, one nay and one absent, it takes a two-thirds vote of 5 the subcommittee to limit debate and I believe that that 6 represents two-thirds of those voting. The clerk -- if you 7 will allow me to clarify that. The clerk has said to extend 8 it beyond the five minutes it takes two-thirds of the 9 Committee or it can be at the discretion of the Chair. The 10 motion carries. 11 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman? 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam. 13 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Can I be heard now? 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Sir. 15 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I just want to 16 express my disappointment in the Committee. People got on a 17 bus in Waco, Texas 5:30, 6:00 o'clock this morning. They 18 have been very patient, and I only know of one that has 19 testified, that being the Mayor, and now they are being 20 limited. They have been here for... 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would be happy to 22 let you go through this and tell me which ones those are. 23 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I appreciate that, 24 Mr. Chairman, that would be disrespectful to other people 25 who have traveled a distance as well. I am not asking for

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Page 356 1 preferential treatment for people from Waco. I am just 2 asking that the rules not be changed. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Earlier you had 4 asked me to let the gentleman from Killeen, the councilman 5 for Killeen -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I asked that they be 7 let in the room. They were being excluded from the room. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: They were elected 9 officials and we took their testimony. So -- 10 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Those were Ms. Hupp's 11 constituents. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I misunderstood. I 13 thought they were your constituents. 14 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: The note I gave to 15 the clerk said -- the substance of my note was not they were 16 my constituents. My concern was they were being excluded 17 from the room. 18 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 20 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. I 21 just want to ask you a question for clarification. With us 22 going to the five minute rule, should there be people who 23 have not testified and you have them here, will you still 24 listen to them beyond the 8:00 p.m. time frame? 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It is my intent to

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Page 357 1 go beyond the 8:00 p.m. I cannot tell you what my intent is 2 as far as going the entire evening. I think that may have 3 something to do with my physical capacity to continue. I 4 intend to go past the 8:00 p.m. time. 5 I have called out before Adabelle Rodriquez. 6 She sent a note up now. Said she is ready to testify now Is 7 Adabelle Rodriquez here? She is not? 8 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: She is right 9 here. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: After Adabelle is 11 going to be John Kelly. After John Kelly is going to be 12 Roberto Flores. After Roberto Flores is going to be George 13 Bransmom. I am sorry if I mispronounced that. And after 14 that is going to be Sherry Ball Maza, M-A-Z-A, and I'm sorry 15 if I mispronounced that. Yes ma'am? 16 ADABELLE RODRIGUEZ 17 Mr. Chairman. My name is Adabelle Cortez Rodriquez. I 18 serve on the Cockrell Hill City Council. Cockrell Hill is a 19 very small town, city tucked between Dallas. Actually 20 surrounded by Dallas. 1.2 square miles. It's in the 21 western part of Dallas County. 22 The transformation of Cockrell Hill in recent years 23 reflects what is happening all over North Texas. Just a few 24 years ago Cockrell Hill was predominantly Anglo with a few 25 Hispanic families. Right now Cockrell Hill is predominantly

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Page 358 1 Hispanic and becoming more so each and every day. On behalf 2 of families in Cockrell Hill I ask that you stop the effort 3 to redraw our Congressional District lines. There is no 4 reason beyond selfish partisanship for you to redraw our 5 state congressional districts. The current districts are 6 barely two years old. They are fair and legal. Never 7 before has any Texas Governor or legislature tried to draw 8 lines and disrupt communities for purely political purposes 9 in the middle of a decade. 10 I know Tom DeLay wants a new map. We don't. He 11 doesn't live here. He doesn't know us and he doesn't care 12 about us. We expect you to stand up for us and not lay down 13 for the likes of Tom DeLay. The map your committee approved 14 this spring is an assault on Hispanic voting strength in 15 North Texas. It packs some Hispanic neighborhoods into 16 Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson's district, which is 17 already a safe minority district. It fragments all other 18 Hispanic neighborhoods into Anglo dominated districts where 19 Hispanic voters will have no impact. 20 Cockrell Hill is part of the 24th Congressional 21 District. A minority opportunity district. We vote in 22 coalition with other minority voters and control both 23 primary and general elections. Our current Congressman, 24 Martin Frost, enjoyed the support of Cockrell Hill when it 25 was a predominantly an Anglo city, and has continued to

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Page 359 1 enjoy our support as we have become predominantly Hispanic.

2 He has earned the votes and we have been proud to support

3 him, but the votes are ours. They are not yours to take

4 away simply because you want to eliminate Martin Frost or

5 any other incumbent member of Congress. Your attack is not

6 on Martin Frost. It's on us, the voters. We resent it and

7 we request that you stop.

8 We have great challenges in our city and across our state.

9 Our economy is struggling. Our schools are struggling.

10 Families face enormous pressures. It is hard for me to

11 comprehend why anyone would use the scarce resources of our

12 state, millions of dollars, to reopen congressional

13 redistricting. The current lines abide by every provision

14 of the Voting Rights Act. They have been reviewed and

15 upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. Texas has strong members

16 of Congress from both parties. Please leave it alone. Use

17 your time, use our scarce tax dollars to meet our immediate

18 needs, not to indulge Washington partisan politicians. We

19 have all heard the phrase, "For the people and by the

20 people." If this redistricting should pass, an element

21 would be removed that would render this phrase null and

22 void. Thank you.

23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: John Kelly. After

24 Mr. Kelly is going to be Roberto Flores.

25 THE WITNESS:

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Page 360 1 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman, 2 while he's coming can I ask a question? 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 4 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: There is a 5 question regarding the maps being brought. I think you may 6 have mentioned earlier there would be some extra maps 7 brought in. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We were not able to 9 find anybody to print them. There are many maps out in the 10 audience. We have asked people to share. That's why we 11 brought these two maps on the side. Anybody at anytime is 12 welcome to come down and view. 13 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I can go to 14 Kinko's for you. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am more than 16 welcome to take you up on that. I don't have a 17 from the House. Sir, you can't come up on the podium. Come 18 over here. I will get a staff member to talk to you. I 19 don't have any funds available. I don't have any funds with 20 me. I have explained to you earlier the dilemma I have on 21 maps. We have given out all of the maps. I would like to 22 take you up on you offer. I am not going to be able to take 23 you up on your offer, sir. 24 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Have a State 25 Trooper go.

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Page 361 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: State Troopers 2 don't carry government credit cards around for that purpose. 3 4 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Chairman? 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon. 6 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Can I ask you a 7 procedure question? Can I ask you one that I have been 8 asked. I think I know the answer. It is more for future 9 reference. This Committee is a subcommittee of five. You 10 have one member absent, so does the two-thirds rule apply to 11 those present or the total? 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The two-thirds is 13 to extend. It takes two-thirds of the Committee to extend 14 the time limit after the Committee has adopted the rule. 15 Two-thirds is to extend the time beyond that. 16 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Is that two-thirds of 17 those present or two-thirds of the Committee as a hole? 18 MR. MARCHANT: I will get an answer to that 19 question. 20 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: When you need it. I 21 understand. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Do you have an 23 answer to that question, Mr. Vernon, so you can help us with 24 that if you already know the answer. 25 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: I don't know the

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Page 362 1 answer. I was asking the question trying to find the 2 answer. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Kelly. Mr. 4 Flores, for. Mr. Kelly is for the redistricting. 5 Mr. Flores is against redistricting. 6 The answer to the question is two-thirds of 7 those members present and voting. 8 George Bransma from Euless is for doing 9 redistricting. Cheri Ball -- Cheri is against doing 10 redistricting. Is here to testify. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am actually, but in a 12 sense of fair play, honestly I didn't get up here until 13 about 11:30 today. I am sitting with several individuals. 14 Could I please cede my time to Boone Taylor and -- I mean 15 not cede my time. Can I swap places with him so when it's 16 his turn to speak, I can speak? Because I do have things to 17 say. I'm a history teacher. You, know, I live in Dallas, 18 but he has been up here since very early this morning, and I 19 will limit to five minutes. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If anyone has been 21 here that wants to write their name down and bring it up 22 here, I will get another clerk up here and we will start 23 looking through here and try to get that done, but you need 24 to testify. 25 THE WITNESS: In a sense of fair play --

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Page 363 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have spent as 2 much time talking about the order as we would if you could 3 testify. Go ahead and testify. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay fine. I have five minutes 5 I will take three. 6 CHERI BALL-MEZA 7 My name is Cheri Ball-Meza. I've lived in Dallas, Texas 8 most of my life. I am a history teacher in Dallas 9 Independent School District, predominantly Hispanic area. I 10 came because this is an interest history lesson. I wish it 11 had been going on during the five months that we were in 12 school so I can take my kids to some of these things. I am 13 just -- I am astounded that after we spent all this time and 14 effort, and yes, we got kicked in the -- I am a lifelong 15 Democrat -- we got kicked in the butt over this last 16 redistricting plan. You know, it's just crazy. I am just 17 upset and I don't want to take any more of your time. I 18 just want it said that I want you to remember something. 19 Those who don't learn from history, are doomed to repeat it. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are going to 21 bring another staff member in and if you would bring up a 22 note over on the side, we will have that person and we will 23 start sifting through these and try to get those of you that 24 have been here a long time and want to testify. We will 25 find your witness affirmation.

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Page 364 1 Mr. Bransma. Mr. Bransma is for. Did not 2 testify. John Kelly is for. Did not testify. Ms. Flores. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I do -- we have my 6 staff here or volunteers helping me telling me that we have 7 some -- we have got some folks here who speak Spanish that 8 would like to testify. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have an 10 interpreter right behind us, sir. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Right, I know. They 12 have asked for witness affirmation forms in Spanish and the 13 clerk is telling them we don't have any; is that correct? 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, sir, I 15 am trying to juggle three things at once. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Right. That's why 17 there is three hearings around the state in one day, but 18 they are asking for witness affirmation forms in Spanish. I 19 just wanted to ask that given the fact there are none here. 20 The clerk is saying there aren't any, but I thought I would 21 ask you. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have all of the 23 instructions and everything in Spanish. We have all the 24 rules and everything in Spanish. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Right. Do we have

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Page 365 1 witness affirmation in Spanish? 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't know. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are the 4 Chairman. If you don't know, who knows? 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, we do not. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We don't have them. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We don't have 8 witness affirmations -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The clerk just said 10 you had some in Lubbock; is that correct? 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We had the 12 instructions and the rules of the Committee, and how the 13 Committee was going to be in Spanish, and it was posted 14 several places. We did not have any witness affirmations in 15 Lubbock. I am not aware that there have been -- they have 16 been printed. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: They what? 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am not aware of 19 any, whether they have been printed or not. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay. I would 21 suggest, Mr. Chairman, for those that don't speak English -- 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have had an 23 interpreter here since 8:30 this morning. If they need some 24 interpretation she is available. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am just asking.

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Page 366 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, she is 2 available to interpret . 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But the form itself, 4 do you want her to fill it out for them, is that what you 5 would like? 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, I would rather 7 that she help them fill it out if there is such a request. 8 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay, so that's -- 9 yeah, I just want to establish what the formal rule here is. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't know. I 11 can tell you that my response to you is that if there is 12 someone that needs assistance in reading a witness 13 affirmation form -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That you want them 15 to use the interpret. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: They are more than 17 welcome to. That's why we have had her here since 8:30 this 18 morning. 19 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Mr. Chairman. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Alonzo. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Though we now have an 22 interpreter present, I would like to formally request that 23 in the future that a... 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I wanted to make 25 sure with the clerk that there has been no witness

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Page 367 1 affirmation. None of the Committee's have used that witness 2 affirmation. 3 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Well, Mr. Chairman, I 4 thank you, Mr. Chairman. Although we have a current 5 interpreter or translator available, I would like to 6 formally request that in the future that we have a form 7 available in case somebody does wish to fill out the form. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I will pass it on 9 to Mr. Craddick. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, not to 11 Mr. Crabb. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Craddick is 13 the Speaker and I will pass both of those requests on. 14 Robert Mesa. And as the clerk finds these 15 people that brought their cards up -- witness affirmation 16 forms... Phyllis -- I'm sorry, is Mr. Mesa here? 17 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Right here. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Mesa is 19 against. The person that will receive the cards is right 20 over here in this corner over by the Texas flag. If you 21 would bring them over there and he can get them, we can 22 begin to go through here. Yes, sir. 23 ROBERT MESA 24 Hi, my name the Robert Mesa. I am from Dallas. I am just 25 here to tell you that I am against this redistricting plan

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Page 368 1 because this is a fair map over here that was set about by

2 the courts. What you are doing is something that you guys

3 drew up. I know that people that have power get corrupted

4 and, you know, I understand that you guys right now have the

5 power, but like everybody said you only won on a very low

6 turn out, and you will come up again for election, and we

7 will take action against this in the future.

8 Hopefully you will listen to your conscience and decide

9 that, you know, we shouldn't do this. What is there is fair

10 and we will leave it alone. Listen to your conscience.

11 That's all I have to say. Thank you.

12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Rita, I have got

13 you, yours is in here. We would like to have you testify at

14 this time.

15 THE WITNESS: I would just like to ask this

16 Committee first of all --

17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you state

18 your name for the record?

19 RITA BEUING

20 Rita Beuing for Addison, Texas. Kinney Marchant, I am in

21 your district.

22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am, I

23 thought you were from Mr. Dunnam's district.

24 THE WITNESS: No, I am not.

25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Go ahead.

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Page 369 1 THE WITNESS: But first of all I would just 2 like to mention and hope the next time we have these 3 hearings, that first of all I have gone to many public 4 hearings, that there is reasonable time for the public to 5 sign up ahead of time, and that people are called in the 6 order they are signed in after the elected officials. The 7 reason I say that is I was the very first one to sign up 8 this morning and apparently got shuffled to the bottom of 9 the deck. I just ask that out of respect for this whole 10 audience that is attending today, and I applaud everyone who 11 has suffered and lived through it. 12 Anyway, like I said my name is Rita Beuing. 13 I am a community advocate. I am a volunteer. I work in our 14 local precincts often on election day as part of the 15 democratic process. I am here today as I am very distressed 16 about the proposed redistricting situation as it violates 17 the democratic process. First of all as a Texas taxpayer 18 and business owner, I am upset that when the Texas 19 Legislature has cut vital funding for health care and 20 education, that we would turn around and spend at the very 21 get go $1.7 million dollars of taxpayers money for a special 22 session. I think reasonable Republicans that support fiscal 23 conservative and responsible acts of government, I think 24 many of them would also agree this is a waste of taxpayers 25 money.

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Page 370 1 More importantly, I am here due to what seems 2 to be an extreme right wing agenda to high-jack democracy 3 because I feel that if there was a significant amount of 4 Republicans that supported this today, since this is the 5 first time the public has been able to speak on this 6 process, they would be here, and it's not their majority 7 that seems to be here today. This proposed redistricting 8 process I would compare in talking about Tom DeLay and the 9 other extremists who support this agenda is no better than 10 corrupt blackjack dealers at a casino who would want to cut 11 the cards, stack the deck and deal themselves a winning hand 12 for the House to take all. Truly, the majority of people 13 are not for redistricting and that's what they are saying 14 today. 15 As I understand it this same process of 16 redistricting and stacking the deck is taking place in 17 Georgia and Colorado and I and not sure where all else. Why 18 is that? Could it be that the current administration in the 19 White House in a narrowly controlled Congress is worried 20 that the next time the public gets to the ballot box they 21 are going to realize the following: A failing economy with 22 more than two million Americans out of work and growing. 23 Seven percent of Dallas is out of work. A post war Iraq 24 where it's evident that we may soon surpass the amount of 25 American soldiers that died during the war with those dying

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Page 371 1 in post war Iraq. 2 That now unprecedented the EPA administrator 3 recently resigned as the largest attack on the environmental 4 laws in the last 30 years has been launched with the 5 administration itself tampering with federal documents and 6 reports as reported recently in the news. I guess I would 7 be worried too if I was in that position. But the real 8 losers today are the American people, the Texas taxpayers 9 and democracy. Texas had its redistricting two years ago. 10 It was a fair and democratic process. It went to the court 11 and courts have spoken. 12 If those who are in political office don't 13 support a fair and even playing field where all of the 14 people are represented, then it's time that the likes of Tom 15 DeLay and Rick Perry and Speaker Craddick all get out of the 16 game. 17 And in closing I would like to say this as 18 well. As I oppose redistricting, I am just as opposed to 19 this standing committee sitting before me stacked with only 20 one Democrat who has a voice as far as an official 21 representative on the Committee standing before me today. I 22 feel this is emblematic of the process by which 23 redistricting will also follow. 24 I would like one last comment. Since 25 Governor Perry has issued his proclamation for the special

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Page 372 1 session, I think the people here today have overwhelmingly 2 issued their own proclamation. They don't want 3 redistricting. They don't think its' fair, and this process 4 is not only wrong, but it sets a bad precedent for Texas and 5 the country. I suggest you go back to Governor Perry and 6 tell him the people today, and I am willing to bet you it's 7 not just in Dallas, are sending him our own proclamation 8 that this is not right and redistricting should not stand. 9 Thank you. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Phyllis Flowers is 11 not here. Does -- wants to testify though. Turns in a 12 statement against. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: She left her 14 testimony. I gave it to you, Mr. Chairman. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Okay, thank you Mr. 16 Raymond. We will put the two together. George Coffey. 17 Mr. Coffey. Mr. Coffey has given me some written comments. 18 GEORGE W. COFFEY 19 I always say power to the people so long as they are my 20 brothers and sisters, and good evening to the rest. I am on 21 the executive board in Waco. I am Marine Corps retired. 22 That's why I came down here. I am a disabled veteran. I am 23 against redistricting. I am a violently against 24 redistricting, but I have some questions. I want direct 25 answers. What is the advantage and disadvantage in

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Page 373 1 redistricting racially, educationally, economically and on

2 veterans and disabled veterans and the work force. I want

3 some direct answers. And another question, I have been told

4 that Tom DeLay made a statement that he would have went in

5 the service but Johnson had everything all filled up. He

6 had no space to get in the service. I think he's full of

7 BS, but anyway, the money, now millions of dollars, the

8 money that you will use for re-districting can go and help

9 solve the big crime that is going on in the State of Texas

10 on economic terrorism.

11 I was threatened. I was threatened here a while back. We

12 have economical terrorism. The Waco Police Department don't

13 want to deal with it. Sheriff's Department don't want to

14 deal with it, and the local FBI don't want to deal with it.

15 I am very hot on that because my wife -- I reported this

16 crime, and the money that we have on moving around and

17 redistricting, that can go in law enforcement and help

18 eliminate this economic terrorism. We go terrorists in Waco

19 and all through McLennan County. I was told it's in Austin

20 now and San Antonio Dallas and Fort Worth, I don't know,

21 but I have experienced it. I got documents this high where

22 it is on gasoline. You pay for sixteen gallons of gas, and

23 you get 12 and 13 gallons of gas, and nobody won't do

24 anything about it. I got documents this high and nobody

25 wants to deal with it, not even law enforcement want to deal

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Page 374 1 with it. And the Reverend, he knows how I feel about that.

2 That money that you take for redistricting, that million

3 something dollars if you put it in law enforcement and break

4 up this economic terrorism. You take some of that money and

5 you put it in education. You take some of that money and

6 help the people, these homeless people or these jobless

7 people.

8 I would like some direct answers from the panel. What

9 would the advantage and disadvantage be on the five things I

10 named? Anyone like to speak on this?

11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is there anyone

12 that would like to speak and answer?

13 THE WITNESS: Don't everybody holler at one

14 time. Go ahead. I am asking because as a veteran -- a

15 disabled veteran, twenty something years in the military, I

16 think I am entitled to some answers. We waste so much money

17 unnecessary when things that are needed here we don't spend

18 money or we cut the budget. I can't get no answer, but

19 thank you very much. I appreciate it.

20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Written comments

21 you gave me earlier will be put with your testimony.

22 THE WITNESS: I want your address. I want to

23 send you those criminal documents. I got documents this

24 high on criminal activities nobody want to deal with it. I

25 am going to see if you going to deal with it.

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Page 375 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, sir. 2 George Coffey. He filled out two. There is two. I'm 3 sorry. George Coffey, U.S. retired on Wendle in Waco. 4 Okay, one is on Wendle one is on Kendle. Okay, is there 5 another Mr. Coffee? Is there another Mr. Coffey? So one on 6 Kendle testified. And one on Windle, they are both against, 7 and did not testify. I will correct that. 8 Mr. George Rini, and I am sorry if I 9 mispronounced that. Is against changing the current map. 10 Deana Hampton. Against changing the current map. Mr. John 11 Hampton against changing the -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 14 15 JOHN HAMPTON 16 Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, a throng of citizens 17 behind me, and especially the courageous 51. I want this 18 group to know that I am a Democrat and I am a Democrat 19 because the Democratic Party made it possible for me to live 20 like a Republican. As to the redistricting, I have never in 21 my 80 -- almost 81 years of life seen anything as ridiculous 22 and as -- excuse me. As egregious as that map should it 23 become official. Look at that purple area down in the lower 24 portion, the lower left-hand portion. Given my recollection 25 that it's about 1300 miles from El Paso to Beaumont, Texas,

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Page 376 1 that extends that must be seven or 800 miles long. How is

2 that Representative there going to do any representation?

3 How is he going to ever meet a voter? You talk about

4 compact districts.

5 Look at the other one just below it over here. This little

6 yellow. It sneaks up around and through a whole bunch of

7 counties, and if that isn't gerrymandering I have an orange

8 grove at the North Pole for sale. Also, a bunch of this

9 gerrymandering is done, I am persuaded, to delete a whole

10 bunch of people of Mexican and African descent, or Hispanic,

11 and I want to tell you a short story about some of the

12 blacks that I met in the military service, and by the way I

13 am a retired Air Force officer, a bomber pilot. I served in

14 China Burma and India in World War II. I served in Korea

15 during that conflict and bombed Vietnam before most of

16 you -- some of you were born. In 1944 I was in Columbia,

17 South Carolina where at the age of twenty-one I was a 2nd

18 Lieutenant in command of a bomber crew of three officers and

19 three non-commissions officers. And here came a group of

20 black pilots. They were all fighter pilots. And all of

21 these fighter kids had to get out of this little officer's

22 club and go up to the big one because, guess what, those

23 black pilots couldn't get in the officer's club. They could

24 go fight and die, but they couldn't get in the officer's

25 club. They couldn't do a lot of other things, and it is

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Page 377 1 still that way to an extraordinary degree even though we

2 made enormous progress in the last several years.

3 That squadron were the Tuskegee Airmen. When they went to

4 Europe a lot of these bomber groups didn't want them on

5 their wings. Didn't want them protecting them from the

6 German fighters. This happened two or three times. Then

7 one day there was no one else to go with those bombers

8 across Europe, and so the Tuskegee fighters went along. As

9 Paul Harvey says, here is the rest of the story. After a

10 couple of those missions they started asking for the

11 Tuskegee Airmen. And not and only that, this is almost

12 unbelievable to me. The Tuskegee airman never ever lost a

13 bomber, not even one that they escorted.

14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Just as a precursor

15 you have about a minute left on your time on your testimony.

16 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

17 And yet those are the kind of people that you

18 are trying to disenfranchise today. I think that -- I think

19 that the object of a bunch of this, as I said, is to

20 disenfranchise people because you don't like the way they

21 vote. I don't like the way you vote either. That's the

22 scene on that score. I will conclude with this list of the

23 reasons why I am a Democrat, because Democrats gave us this

24 and Republicans did then and now oppose all of these:

25 Health care for the indigent. Education for everybody.

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Page 378 1 Fair tax action. The only fair tax is the . 2 That's a death knell here, isn't it? Fair housing. Work 3 rules in the workplace. Workman's compensation. 4 Unemployment compensation. Medicare. Prescription drug 5 plans that now they want to turn over to the insurance 6 companies as they want to turn Medicare over to Wall Street. 7 And so Republicans, I have to admit however, 8 are far away more adept at electing people than we are. For 9 example, in the 1968 election, the Republcans from one 10 election got two Presidents and three Vice-Presidents. This 11 of course came as a result of corruption, and thirty more 12 seconds. Someone here mentioned a little while ago power 13 brings corruption, and absolute power brings absolute 14 corruption, and I think that is what we are seeing right 15 here in front of me this evening. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 17 HAROLD HAMMETT 18 Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, I thank you. I 19 have got some facts on the charts here that I think that are 20 a little bit different from the ones that have been 21 presented thus far. May I have some assistance in bringing 22 that easel that is back in there or around the corner there 23 so I can show it to the committee? 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: This is 25 Mr. Hammett.

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Page 379 1 THE WITNESS: I am going to put this -- I'm 2 sorry you folks can't see it. I will try to describe them, 3 but I want to have it over here where the Committee can see 4 it and so I can get to it. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Hammett, do you 6 have that in any kind of written form? 7 THE WITNESS: No, just in notes is all. Oh, 8 do I have that in written form? Yes, I do indeed, and in 9 just a second I would like to make that a part of the 10 record. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir, we are 12 going to get somebody up here. 13 THE WITNESS: All right. Good. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Trying to get a 15 little bit of assistance. If you will give this to this 16 lady, she will get it up to the clerk here. 17 THE WITNESS: Make these copies with one 18 exception that I will -- 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Well, we will in 20 addition put that original into the record. You go ahead 21 and start your testimony. 22 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you. 23 Mr. Chairman, my name is Harold Hammett. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Harold Hammett, and 25 he is here against the Bill and is testifying -- I'm sorry,

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Page 380 1 against the plan. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was General Counsel for 3 the Texas Democrat Party for 15 years up until the mid 90's. 4 I wasn't to just take time for a personal point. I think 5 the Chair knows how fundamentally I disagree with -- on the 6 merits of this. I want to say I have been in some tough 7 meetings, tense meetings, emotional meetings before where 8 people have intense feelings. This is one such. I think 9 overall you have done a fair job and a good job of giving 10 everybody a chance, and I personally appreciate it. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am absolutely 12 doing the best I can. I know it's not living up to some of 13 your expectations. 14 THE WITNESS: Some of these are less fun than 15 they look. 16 Now, but going to the merits, Mr. Chairman, 17 because of the time shortage on this I am going to have to 18 cut some of the preliminary niceties. I want to say this, 19 and I going to use a phrase that -- or a term that sounds 20 harsh at first, and I am going to be understood, 21 particularly the Lt. Commander, I would like for you to 22 listen to it carefully, because I am going to define it in a 23 way not to mean patriotism or loyalty, but to refer to basic 24 the way that members of legislative bodies are elected in 25 the United States, and my statement is this: Tom DeLay's

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Page 381 1 Republican rationale for an additional guaranteed five 2 Republican Congressional Districts is fundamentally 3 un-American. 4 Going for the facts and the reasons why. 5 Let's look at the facts, the objective facts. You heard 6 some percentage figures tonight, but if you were to pick two 7 statewide races as an indication. Say an objective observer 8 were giving you an exam in political science in college, or 9 government in high school, or political consulting. Look at 10 these figures and be able to prophesy or predict what would 11 be the results in certain five Congressional Districts. And 12 just -- but I want to say to start out with, it is well 13 known that in all statewide offices contested Republicans 14 won, but we may not have time to look at specific figures 15 for those elections. Just for Governor and for Supreme 16 Court, this was Place -- I believe Place 1 where there were 17 two judges -- state district judges, the Republican, Judge 18 Wainwright from Houston. Jim Parsons, the Democrat from 19 Palestine and Anderson County. Both state district judges. 20 Neither well-known statewide, neither controversial. An 21 ideal ballot to test the strength of a state party vote. 22 Now, if Tom DeLay or anybody else were 23 looking at this afterwards, they ought to become 24 predictable, what would be the votes in that district -- the 25 Congressional District for those two races, Governor and

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Page 382 1 Supreme Court Look here. The Republican Governor, Governor 2 Perry won by 32,000 votes. Looking at that there, Judge 3 Wainwright one by 19,000, but lo and behold, the Republican 4 Congressman lost by 19,000. 5 Now, same thing on District -- the second one 6 there. Governor Perry won by a margin of 28,000. I will 7 take these off in a minute because I am speeding up on the 8 time. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. You have 10 got about two minutes left, please. 11 THE WITNESS: Representative Turner won by a 12 margin of 31,000. I am going to put in the record overall I 13 am just going to summarize this. In those five 14 Congressional Districts, in hard votes Governor Perry won by 15 a margin of 189,000. Judge Wainwright by a margin of 16 112,000. Yet the Democratic candidates for Congress in 17 those five places won -- if you will remove those -- won 18 while the Republicans lost by a margin of 91,000. Now, that 19 is hard votes. That's not percentages. And what Tom DeLay 20 and this rationale is trying to do is to say that those 21 91,000 crossover Republican votes are Republicans that 22 should not be trusted and they want to change the system to 23 get rid of them. 24 Now, here's what is wrong about the 25 percentages idea. Whoever gets -- if the Republican Party

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Page 383 1 has 52 percent overall statewide votes for Congress, or 62 2 percent, whatever it is, they should have 62, or 60, or 3 total of at least 20 members in Congress. That is a 4 different system. That calls for and relates to 5 proportional representation, and a lot of countries in 6 Europe and in where all or a part of Parliament are 7 elected by straight party tickets and you vote only for the 8 party, not for the person, and if you win by a certain 9 percentage you are entitled to, say, to 19 seats in the 10 Israeli Parliament. Well, then the party executive 11 committee, the party hierarchy picks who those are, but here 12 in this country you vote not just for the party, you vote 13 for the person. And the Republicans who vote and exercise 14 their independent judgment to elect a Democrat or 15 Republican, whoever, a voting, as our system permits as a 16 matter of right, for the person they want to, and your 17 attempts, if you pursue this further, allow DeLay to 18 implement that, is un-American and I urge you not to do it. 19 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If you could -- 21 THE WITNESS: May I have 30 more seconds? 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 23 THE WITNESS: For the record I do want to 24 show I think that Tom DeLay can back off if there is enough 25 pressure on him. They say this is impossible. Recall about

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Page 384 1 this time a year ago Tom DeLay said to a Baptist Church of

2 300 people don't send your kids to Baylor. Don't send them

3 to A&M because A&M has lost its conservatism and there are

4 better Christian schools around, words to those effect.

5 Well, he got some heck on that and he backed

6 off. If he could do it on that, maybe he could do it on

7 something like this, because you-all -- you-all have the

8 responsibility as legislators to show that you trust these

9 voters in the Republican primary or the Democratic primary,

10 when they get to the general election they have a freedom of

11 choice that this plan would deny them. Thank you.

12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you.

13 Ms. Reyes from Arlington, Texas representing

14 LULAC. I think it's the gentleman coming down right here.

15 LICO REYES

16 Honorable Chair, Honorable staff and Committee, and all you

17 who have waited so patiently, may God bless each and

18 everyone of you. I have noticed we have had some

19 situations, some problems because of the planning of the

20 procedures to do something very quickly which actually takes

21 a lot longer time by Constitutional law.

22 Today I, Lico Reyes, come to you, not as a Republican of

23 course. Nor to some of your surprise, as a Democrat. I

24 come as a civil rights advocate and a protector and defender

25 of many minority peoples that are assembled right here. Our

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Page 385 1 LULAC National President, Hector Flores, wrote against the

2 last power grab by Tom DeLay. I was denied the opportunity

3 to say that -- at the LULAC press conference at Dallas City

4 Hall on Wednesday, that my Texas State Director, Martha

5 Moran, a Republican, is also against this obvious, devious,

6 divisive and abrasive power grab by Tom DeLay The Terrible.

7 I as President of LULAC International which has African

8 Americans, Pakistanis, Hispanics, and my treasure is from

9 Germany, Andrea Higgins. And as civil rights chair,

10 Co-chair of the Oversight Review Committee for the State of

11 Texas am likewise opposed to losing one single civil rights

12 advocate from either party. I do not want representation by

13 any African American, or any Hispanic or Mexican. I want my

14 rights safeguarded who those whose color of character is of

15 my liking. One who looks after all our children's education

16 Mr. Grusendorf. Labor -- we are from the same town -- home,

17 voting, law enforcement and representation rights, I do not

18 want an Oreo or a cocoanut representing me.

19 The civil rights laws in twenty five years are going

20 to protect the white Anglo-Saxon male because we are going

21 to dominate the numbers and that's only right. That's the

22 way the civil rights laws are made. I don't know if any of

23 you realize that. Leave the map approved by the United

24 States Department of Justice alone. It complies with the

25 2000 census and upholds that noted and prominent rise of

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Page 386 1 Hispanics in our state and nation. By the way, I wrote my

2 own speech.

3 The current maps help minority coalitions elect

4 minorites of our choice with our values in all elections,

5 even the primaries. For example, it gives us a minority

6 opportunity District 24 and 30, in which Tony Sanchez and

7 Ron Kirk won handily. While this resistive and fiasco is

8 brilliantly plan as an attack to those who now valiantly

9 protect our civil rights, some of the same parties' leaders,

10 former Lt. Governor Bill Ratliff, as well as the current Lt.

11 Governor, have boldly decried this hash -- harsh, vial,

12 desperate, and vicious, and voracious power grab. It's a

13 horrid effort, and if it is successful our minority

14 constituents with be packed like sardines into two into one.

15 It's a minority district in the Dallas/Fort Worth, Arlington

16 area. But while we create a dense, safe Democratic place

17 Bernice Johnson, we will severely dilute another minority

18 district, that of Martin Frost who has been a civil rights

19 and civil liberties amigo to those of us of color and

20 ethnicity. He will be replaced. I do not want to lose

21 Martin Frost. No quiero.

22 It will cost Texas about $7 million dollars to revisit

23 redistricting this time. Our children were denied millions

24 because a Texas education agency used fraudulent percentages

25 and numbers to define our Texas dropout as was noted in the

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Page 387 1 Houston School District two days ago where they were caught. 2 You should use the money to stop the educational genocide of 3 our children. They are our greatest resource. I quote 4 Carolyn Keeton Rylander, Republican, our Texas Comptroller. 5 She wrote me regarding the Texas dropout rates, which is, 6 Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 percent. The second or third worst 7 dropout rate in the nation. 8 I am the victim of a phenomenon that we call 9 this crisis. During the days of the Killer D's exodus to 10 the now famous Holiday Inn in Oklahoma, I was physically 11 assaulted by one of those blue coated House Sergeant at Arms 12 assistants. This happened just before I addressed a mess of 13 people at the steps of the Capitol. I reported it to the 14 assistant to the Sergeant of Arms and he said that he was 15 baffled because this young man was a quiet and peaceful 16 gentleman, which brings me to the point of this very 17 divisive confrontation that is forced upon us by Tom DeLay, 18 Rick Perry and others. If this quiet, peaceful individual 19 was moved into a passionate frame of mind and that led to an 20 assault of a civil rights LULAC activist, wearing a Polo 21 shirt like this one that says Graduate of the United States 22 Federal Bureau of Investigation Citizens Academy -- I was 23 wearing the same shirt -- and he attacked me. Ladies and 24 Gentleman, what is that going to say for the passion that is 25 going to wield in those people who are not compassionate,

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Page 388 1 who are right now already gendered against us, who are 2 violent, aggressive and anxious partisan folks. When real 3 compassionate patriots peacefully speak and seek out 4 Constitutional civil human rights, what would happen if I, a 5 Mexican, would have assaulted the white man back? 6 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: You would be 7 in jail. 8 THE WITNESS: That's right. Thank you. 9 Remember. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If you could move 11 towards the conclusion. 12 THE WITNESS: You bet. I have one last 13 paragraph. Remember the code words, Mr. Chairman. States 14 rights, they meant black slaves. Nowadays, downsizing, 15 privatize mean layoff and fire. And the term compassionate 16 conservative, well, it can best be described by the actions 17 of one George W. Bush two years, two months ago, politicking 18 and traveling across Texas, "I am a compassionate here and 19 compassionate because that's what a Governor does." Two 20 years, two month ago later I was there helping those people 21 reconstruct on the I-20 corridor and in Fort Worth, and 22 where was George Bush then? Was he in Arlington? No. Was 23 he in Fort Worth? No. No, George, the great compassionate, 24 was out politicking while I was out there helping. A true, 25 liberal compassionate. That's TLC, which I am. Is that

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Page 389 1 right, Heavenly Father, are we supposed to take care of 2 those that are less fortunate? 3 In closing, like unto the Trojans of old, 4 this horse won't hunt, and we will not ride this pony show. 5 We want justice, not just us. This is the USA, not the 6 "you" SA. Long live the spirit of Martin Luther King, John 7 F. Kennedy, Cesar Chavez. I, a civil rights Spartan say to 8 you and to Tom DeLay, no, you can't, no ways. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Joe Bob Burkelo. 10 Joe Bob Burkleo. And he is here against redistricting. I 11 am sure he will tell us that here very shortly. 12 THE WITNESS: 13 JOE BOB BURKLEO 14 Mr. Chairman, my name is Joe Burkelo. Just about everything 15 that can be said has been said. I can tell you that as 16 somebody that was first elected Precinct Chairman 33 years 17 ago, I have seen a lot of changes, and I was very, very 18 proud of some of the changes that were taking place, but it 19 is my feeling that the reason for this redistricting is to 20 dilute the minority strength in this state. Everyone knows 21 that by the year 2010, 2012, this state is going to hit 22 approximately 50 percent Hispanic. The city of Dallas and 23 the county will also hit that mark about 2010 or 2012. 24 The real reason for this is to try to dilute the 25 strength of a lot of people who are not yet 21 years of age

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Page 390 1 or not yet become a U.S. citizen. But by doing this, by

2 trying to put all of the African Americans and Mexican

3 Americans, cram them into these districts, as the man

4 pointed out before, you are not being fair because you are

5 supposed to represent all of the people, and just because

6 the largest percent of citizens that are now being born in

7 the State of Texas, a little over 50 percent this year, are

8 going to be of Mexican American origin, although they are

9 only 33 percent of the population, it is not right to take

10 away the rights of those people who may not have reached

11 majority or who are not yet U.S. citizens. You also take

12 away the rights of a lot -- it's not just African Americans

13 and Mexican Americans or Democrats. There are a lot of hard

14 working people of all colors, whether they be Anglo or Asian

15 that are also Democratic.

16 One of the things that I have seen in working in Democratic

17 politics for 33 years is I agree with the comments the

18 gentleman made earlier. We quite frankly don't do as good a

19 job as the Republicans do at getting out the vote. If you a

20 person with a lot of money, naturally you are going to go

21 out to vote to protect your financial interests.

22 Unfortunately, there is a lot of apathy among people that

23 are hardworking people that they may work 60 or 70 hours a

24 week for a little bit of money and they are simply too tired

25 or they don't feel it's going to do any good to go out and

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Page 391 1 express their opinion by voting. But that's going to

2 change. I am now a senior. I am an old man. I am dying

3 from my diabetes. I won't be here in 2010 or 2012 whenever

4 Mexican Americans are 50 percent of the population, but I

5 hope that the African Americans, and the Hispanics, and

6 white Democrats at that time will be a lot fairer than the

7 Republicans are trying to be by trying to pull off this

8 redistricting, because let me tell you something, the

9 Republicans are running scared because they know the

10 demographics are changing.

11 But one of the things, I worked for many years as an early

12 voting judge in Dallas County, and also as a precinct chair.

13 One of the things -- a lot of my friends are Republicans,

14 but one thing that somebody can tell you about me, and I

15 will go to my grave knowing this, that I have always been

16 fair to someone whether they were Republican, Democrat,

17 regardless of race or gender. I have fought all my life to

18 try to be about fairness. To treat everyone equal whether

19 they are the poorest person in this state, or this county,

20 or this country, and, you know, it just -- it really bothers

21 we go over there and we cost American lives and overthrow

22 the Iraqi government to try to give these people freedoms to

23 be able to vote, and in this country we are trying to take

24 away the basic rights of individuals at the polling place.

25 I urge to you do the right thing, and don't just

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Page 392 1 because you are a Republican, try to put your political 2 leanings aside and do the right thing. In eight short years 3 there is going to be another restricting. Even if You pass 4 this, it is going to be tied up in the courts for three 5 years. So what, it's tied up in the court for three years. 6 Then what, we are five years away. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Sir, if you could 8 conclude. 9 THE WITNESS: Anyway, I can't see where this 10 is going to do any good. It's partisan politics, and we 11 need to be about solving the problems in this country. We 12 have got a growing number of homeless people. As somebody 13 mentioned before, over 200 million unemployed in this 14 country. We need to take care of our own in this country 15 instead of spending billions of dollars in other countries 16 trying to kill people and overthrow governments. We need to 17 take care of the growing number of people living in poverty 18 and homeless in this country. 19 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chairman? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 21 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I would like 22 to ask a point of clarification. I think you had said 23 earlier we were going to alternate between pros-and cons. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have got your 25 witness affirmation in this stack here. We asked people

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Page 393 1 that had been here a while to bring their cards up and we 2 have got that and we are working on that. 3 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I know at 4 least two and probably more pros that would like to testify. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: There is about 70 6 or 80 more. We are going to -- 7 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Let me make 8 sure I have got the point of clarification. It is not your 9 intent to take all pros or all cons. You do intend to 10 alternate? 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are going to 12 alternate once we catch-up with those that said they have 13 been here since 8:30 this morning and that includes both. 14 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I have been 15 here since 8:30 this morning. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I know that you 17 have. That's why I had my assistant come over and get your 18 card. Mr. Lipscomb. Mr. Al Lipscomb. 19 THE WITNESS: Now? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 21 22 AL LIPSCOMB 23 Top of the evening. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Lipscomb. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. To the Honorable

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Page 394 1 Chair, Mr. Marchant. My Representative, Ms. Davis. 2 Honorable Commission members, staff, these good Texans that 3 are here. The Honorable Adabelle Rodriquez, Mr. Burkelo and 4 so many others that I have worked with down through the 5 years. Everything has been said. It's really sad that you 6 have to do this when we know whether we call it DeLay's 7 diabolical, dastardly, despicable, decimated plan on the 8 Democrats, we know what that is. 9 But, you know, we have had some little cruel 10 things. Said some outright real truthful things said. And 11 we all have families. We belong to different churches, 12 synagogues, temples, mosques or tents. Neighbors. We have 13 children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. We are 14 Americans. I am a World War II veteran, Squadron C440 based 15 unit. Had my training at Shepherds Field, Wichita Falls, 16 Texas. Lots of veterans here. Red blooded Americans, but I 17 think it's different at this point. At 9/11 when that 18 happened I heard start attacking about 19 nonpartisan, this and that. Nonpartisan, he was talking 20 about it. George Will and all, nothing was partisan at that 21 time. Now, I see such a similarity you would think the 22 Democrats were communists, thieves trying to sink the 23 government to hear them talk. 24 But I remember, Mr. Marchant, years ago when 25 you -- when people try to snatch power. Another man did

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Page 395 1 that. Remember that night of the broken glass and the 2 burning of the Reichstag? You remember that? Adolph 3 Schicklgruber, he did that also. And there was another man 4 that Rush Limbaugh reminded me of. His name was Heinrich 5 Himmler, remember him, how he could twist things, and spin 6 things, and had the people in Germany thinking that he was 7 right. So like the people in America think that the 8 Republicans are right when you know it's wrong. That's a 9 very dangerous game to be played. 10 Sir, we sent so much following behind Clinton 11 and other Democrats until we left the front door open, 12 didn't we? The Canadian border. Then we left the backdoor 13 open, the southern border. We don't know what's in this 14 country. You don't know who is in here. And then you being 15 so divisive, sir. 16 Mr. Marchant, you are the Chair, right? 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir, I am 18 trying to juggle three things right here at once and try to 19 get everybody that was here at 8:30 up. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, you know, I know 21 everybody here is busy and you are busy also. We didn't 22 come here just to be going through some fruitless things. 23 We came here to try to get you to see that we are human 24 beings also. We know the game is not you, but you have been 25 chosen to head this Committee, and you know in your heart --

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Page 396 1 I bet you are a Christian man too, a church man, and you 2 know in your heart this is not right. You know that. To 3 have to always have the ups on someone else. Why? When we 4 have all gone to war. As I said before we all have families 5 we are all Americans. Why must you take advantage of others 6 because you have a man in there who could easily transist 7 right into one of Hitler's groups. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Lipscomb, these 9 are my friends. 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Marchant, excuse me, sir, 11 but when you try to decimate someone's rights, that's just 12 as bad as what Hitler did to the . You cannot take away 13 the rights of a person. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are having this 15 public hearing today to hear your opinion. 16 THE WITNESS: What you are hearing if you 17 have a public hearing because of what? Mr. Abbott said 18 nothing wrong with it. The Justice Department said 19 nothing's wrong with the lines Now, why is Tom DeLay doing 20 what Adolph Hitler tried to do? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are here today 22 because Mr. Perry has called a special session. We are 23 having public hearings and we are doing the best we can. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I know your are, and 25 I am not being uncomplimentary to you, but Rick Perry or Tom

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Page 397 1 DeLay, you cannot sugarcoat this when you know you are 2 wrong. Hitler was wrong. Himmler was wrong. Rick Perry is 3 wrong, and Tom DeLay is wrong, and the Republican Party is 4 wrong. We have a President -- the President going all over 5 the country, Mr. Marchant, and members all over the country 6 selling $3,000 hot dogs making millions of dollars. This 7 man has raised over $30 million within 30 days, and people 8 said today here we got senior citizens, be they white, 9 black, brown, yellow or red, can't even get medicine, and 10 this man has put the country in shambles on the invasion of 11 Iraq. On the invasion we got guerrilla war going on over 12 there, and he's flying across the country talking about 13 everything is all right. People losing their jobs. Homes 14 are being foreclosed on. And you are sitting here going 15 through the guise as though you are listening. As though 16 you are listening when your mind is already made up. That's 17 a very dangerous game. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Don Van Slyke. 19 After that Mr. Raymond has requested that we have some 20 gentlemen that are here as expert witnesses and that have 21 been here since this morning, and we are going to after 22 Mr. Van Slyke will be Mr.Jack Borden and then Mr. Allan 23 Lichtman, and then we will proceed after that. I'm sorry, 24 my voice is getting hoarse. Mr. Van Slyke, and Mr. Van 25 Slyke is for the Bill.

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Page 398 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, you are 3 for the Bill? 4 THE WITNESS: I am for redistricting, yes. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Proceed. 6 DON VAN SLYKE 7 My name is Don Van Slyke. I would like to thank all of 8 you-all for coming here today, and I am from Irving, Texas. 9 I am a veteran of the Vietnam era. My Representative is 10 Eddie Bernice Johnson. 11 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Turn his mike 12 on. 13 THE WITNESS: Move a little closer I think. 14 To date my only elected office has been for precinct 15 chairman and I am not currently a precinct chairman. I did 16 get here at 8:30 this morning, and I favor redistricting 17 because I feel that the Congressional Districts should 18 represent the people, and I this is a legislative 19 responsibility to do this. 20 Some history, I was drafted into the Army 21 back in '69, but it was in the middle of a college semester, 22 and so I volunteered and that allowed me to finish my 23 college semester. At that time some people evaded the draft 24 and the Vietnam war by going to Canada, but I did not. And 25 at that same time some people said, well, those guys that

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Page 399 1 went to Canada were really smart. Recently when it was time 2 to redistrict some 51 of our legislators went to Oklahoma to 3 avoid their responsibility. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Allow him to 5 testify. 6 THE WITNESS: Sorry? 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Asking them to 8 please allow you to testify. I am asking the audience to 9 please allow you to testify. 10 THE WITNESS: Many people said that this was 11 smart and I agree that this was really smart. It was a very 12 smart thing to do. But I would rather that they had been 13 responsible, and I prefer to use other words to describe the 14 behavior that they had, and that would be irresponsible, 15 undependable, unreliable, untrustworthy and unaccountable. 16 If you would prefer and S word instead of the word smart, my 17 S word would be self-serving because I think that's what it 18 was. I call on the Legislature to fulfill its 19 responsibilities to the people of Texas to redistrict the 20 Congressional Districts as it has not been done in 13 years. 21 And in closing I would like to clarify that I 22 have been white all my life. My name is not Tom DeLay, but 23 I still favor redistricting, and I am not in favor of Hitler 24 or anyone like that. I want to make that perfectly clear. 25 I also believe that when the Governor appointed Xavier

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Page 400 1 Rodriquez that it was an opportunity, and if I had had that 2 opportunity I would be very happy with it. I also voted for 3 Xavier Rodriquez and I'm sorry that he wasn't voted in. 4 And I would like to -- the Chair of this 5 Committee to clarify Roberto Alonzo -- Representative 6 Roberto Alonzo of the 104th's comment earlier, about two 7 hours ago he said that the majority of people today had been 8 against redistricting, and I would like a clarification from 9 the Chair, because it was my understanding we were going to 10 alternate back and forth, so how it was that a couple of 11 hours ago that the majority of the people were against since 12 we were alternating back and forth, and I believe that 13 concludes my comments. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I didn't get your 16 last name, sir. 17 THE WITNESS: Don Van Slyke. Van Slyke. 18 It's Dutch name, Irving Texas. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I still can't hear 20 the last part. 21 THE WITNESS: VAN S-L-Y-K-E. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: First of all I want 23 to thank you for your service in Vietnam. I honor your 24 service to this country, but I also want you to know that I 25 absolutely reject and am insulted by your comparing me to

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Page 401 1 draft dodgers that went to Canada. You are wrong, sir. You 2 are wrong. Are you comparing Abraham Lincoln who broke a 3 quorum to draft dodgers that went to Canada? Are you 4 comparing Lincoln to Bush who went to South Carolina and got 5 lost for a year? 6 Let me tell you something, sir, if you were 7 in Vietnam and all your troops had their guns taken away, 8 you might go run up a few miles until you could get your 9 guns back. You wouldn't just stand there and let them shoot 10 you, would you? 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Van Slyke, you 12 want to respond to Mr. Raymond? 13 THE WITNESS: What was your question, sir? 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I didn't have a 15 question. I told you I resented your comparison, and 16 frankly, I don't think it was a very good one. I honor your 17 service, but that doesn't give you the right -- that doesn't 18 give you the right to say that Juan Escobar who is a State 19 Representative and is a decorated Vietnam veteran and served 20 as an Honor Guard in the White House, to say that he is a 21 draft dodger, sir. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are trying to 23 keep some decorum. And what I have observed throughout the 24 day is as long as the witnesses agree with the majority of 25 the audience there is no heckling, there is no questioning.

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Page 402 1 They are allowed to testify. When there is not agreement 2 with those in the audience, there is heckling and outbursts, 3 things like that. 4 I would like to thank you for your testimony. 5 I would like to thank everybody for their testimony, but 6 it's getting to be very obvious that it is just a back and 7 forth, back and forth. 8 Mr. Grusendorf. 9 THE WITNESS: I would like to respond to his 10 question, sir. You said you were a decorated Vietnam 11 veteran? 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, I didn't say I 13 was. 14 THE WITNESS: Who was that? 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I said 16 Representative Juan Escobar who was one of the 51 who went 17 to Ardmore. 18 THE WITNESS: I apologize to him. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, you ought to 20 apologize to Abraham Linclon too. 21 THE WITNESS: Abraham Lincoln was a 22 Republican who ended slavery. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: He also broke a 24 quorum when he was in the middle of the Illinois 25 Legislature.

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Page 403 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: 2 THE WITNESS: I wasn't -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You ain't going to 4 win. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You are over your 6 time. Mr. Grusendorf has a question for you. 7 Mr. Grusendorf has a question for you. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: First of all, I 9 would like to thank you for your testimony and for -- and I 10 would like to apologize for the audience for the heckling, 11 because I have been in the legislature a number of years and 12 I have never, never before in my legislative career 13 experienced such rudeness by an audience, and I apologize. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I noticed 15 Mr. Raymond is not interrupted by the audience. It was very 16 quiet and very still when Mr. Raymond speaks. 17 Mr. Grusendorf. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: The serious 19 question I would like to ask you though relates to a lot of 20 the testimony we have heard today. Many times today I have 21 heard comments that relates to your position. I heard 22 comments like you should do the right thing. I have heard 23 comments like you know that this is wrong, you shouldn't do 24 this. Obey your conscience. You have testified that we 25 should do redistricting. How do you answer those kind of

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Page 404 1 questions or those kind of statements? Do you know in your 2 heart that you are wrong? 3 THE WITNESS: I tried to answer that earlier. 4 I believe the Constitution says you need to redistrict every 5 ten years. We haven't done that in 13 years, and you can 6 say -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Please allow him to 8 answer without interruption. 9 THE WITNESS: We redistricted the House. We 10 redistricted the JP, we did this, we did that, but the 11 Congressional Districts are substantially the same as they 12 were in 1991. And Representative Richard Raymond said, 13 well, do you think there have been in changes in the last 14 two years since 2001? 15 Well, if you think there have been some since 16 2001, Representative Raymond, how many to you think there 17 have been in the last 13 years that haven't been taken into 18 account? I would say a lot. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We didn't redistrict 20 every two years during the '90's. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't think we redistricted 22 for the last 13 years. That's how I answer that question. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I still have the 24 floor. If you will direct your comments to me. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If you will direct

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Page 405 1 your comments to Mr. Grusendorf. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Again, that's 4 all. I won't belabor this. Again, I apologize for you not 5 being able to answer my question without interruption. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, sir. 7 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr.Chairman, can I 8 ask the gentleman a question? 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 10 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: And I'm sorry, I 11 still haven't been able to understand your name. Would you 12 spell it for the record, please? 13 THE WITNESS: V-A-N, capital S-L-Y-K-E. 14 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: L-Y-K-E. Thank you. 15 THE WITNESS: The E is silent. It's Van 16 Slyke. 17 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Thank you, Mr. Van 18 Slyke. You know, I've made a number of observations today, 19 mainly from Republicans who are neighbors of mine in Tarrant 20 County, and now from you, that those of us who chose to go 21 to Ardmore didn't do our job. I want you to know that in 22 the four sessions that I have been in the legislature, as 23 the county chairwoman observed and as my colleague observed 24 from Tarrant County, I have never been subjected to so much 25 rudeness by witnesses, and let's clarify something. We had

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Page 406 1 been reduced to only having one tool in our toolbox in when 2 it came to Ardmore, and I was representing my constituents, 3 and the reason is these people have all been involved in 4 hard fought battles over decades to get to the point where 5 they have equal rights and equal opportunities, and what 6 this hearing is about is a sham. It is about covering up 7 the reality of theft of our voting rights. That's exactly 8 what I think. 9 THE WITNESS: Is there a question? 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, sir, there is 11 not. Thank you for your testimony. 12 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: The five 13 minutes, the question. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The five minutes, 15 he stopped his testimony in five minutes. The extension of 16 time has been because of questions from the panel. 17 THE WITNESS: I believe there was either no 18 question or an implied question, and the implied question 19 was that somehow the Republicans are doing something that 20 they shouldn't be doing, and that somehow the Republicans 21 are taking away the rights of the poor and the Hispanics, 22 and I would just like to say that in a hundred years the 23 Democrats controlled everything, not just with 50 or 24 60 percent, but with a hundred percent, with 98 percent. 25 And so if you think this is hard, hard was like coming up

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Page 407 1 when a hundred percent of the people, and the legislators, 2 and the Judges were Democrats. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 4 testimony. The next testimony is going to be given from 5 Allan Lichtman. Mr. Allan Lichtman says he speaks on behalf 6 of the Democratic Congressional Delegation and is here to 7 testify against. 8 You appeared before the full Committee 9 several times, both back in May and back in 2001, and maybe 10 in even in 1991. Would you explain your relationship as a 11 witness, please? 12 13 ALLAN LICHTMAN 14 Thank you, very much, and it's a pleasure to see you again 15 and have this opportunity to testify before this Committee. 16 I am a Professor of History at American University in 17 Washington D.C. I am the author of numerous books and 18 articles on issues relating to redistricting and voting 19 rights. I have testified throughout the country as an 20 expert witness in more than 60 federal voting rights and 21 redistricting cases. I have testified for the United States 22 Department of Justice on numerous occasions. I have 23 testified for state and local governments. For Republicans 24 and Democrats. For independent commissions and for various 25 civil rights groups.

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Page 408 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Have you been 2 retained or not retained? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have been retained by 4 the Democratic Congressional Delegation to present expert 5 testimony to this panel this evening. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 7 THE WITNESS: I also presented written 8 testimony. There are some charts that it might be helpful 9 in understanding my testimony. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We will make sure 11 that that is all entered into the record, sir. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, very much. 13 Representative Marchant, I appreciate it. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It is now 8:00 15 o'clock according to my math -- my watch, and this will not 16 go into your time. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We will continue to 19 accept witness affirmations for registration for and against 20 the map. Any witness affirmation received after 8:00, we do 21 not think that we are going to have time for public 22 testimony. It will be for recordation numbers and to say on 23 the record that it will be entered into the record whether 24 the person that signs a witness affirmation after 8:00 25 'clock will be for the redistricting plan or against the

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Page 409 1 redistricting plan, and those that are neutral, and those 2 will be read in -- will be entered into the record. 3 Proceed, sir. 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you. My purpose this 5 evening is to apply standard social science methodologies 6 and precise statistical methods analyzing the current court 7 drawn plan as well as the plan that emerged as amended 8 previously from the House Redistricting Committee. I will 9 consider both the issue of partisan fairness, whether the 10 plans are fair to Republican and Democrat parties, and 11 issues of violations of the Voting Rights Act and Supreme 12 Court interpretations of the 14th amendment. 13 First with respect to the current plan and 14 it's partisan fairness. When you apply standard methodology 15 you discover that not only is the current plan not unfair to 16 Republicans, but, in fact, it is slightly more favorable to 17 Republicans than to Democrats, and we have a standard tool 18 for analyzing such plans, and that is the statewide votes in 19 the State of Texas. By looking at the average of all of the 20 statewide votes cast we have a common base with which to 21 examine the Republican and Democratic leanings of all of the 22 districts within a plan to determine how fair it is to the 23 parties. And it is true that statewide on average for all 24 Congressional Districts Republicans get about 55 to 25 56 percent of the vote on average. And of course they

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Page 410 1 elected fewer than 50 percent of Congressional 2 Representatives. 3 If the reason for that was the way in which 4 the lines were drawn, then there would be a legitimate 5 complaint. However, is it quite clear from analysis of the 6 plan that that is not the reason for the alignment of 7 congressional representatives. If you look at chart one you 8 see that although Republicans on average get about 55 to 9 56 percent of the vote statewide, in fact, 63 percent of 10 districts, 20 out of 32, have on average a Republican 11 majority when looking at the statewide vote. That certainly 12 does not suggest that the plan is unfair to Republicans 13 given that there are more Republican districts than the 14 56 percent Republican average. 15 A more refined analysis presented in chart 16 two normalizes the statewide vote. It says what would 17 happen if, in fact, the statewide vote was equally divided 18 between Republicans and Democrats if this was a 50/50 state. 19 Would one party or the other under the current court drawn 20 plan have an advantage. As indicated in chart two the 21 Republicans clearly have an advantage. Even if you 22 normalized the vote to 50/50, the Republicans would still 23 control 59 percent of all districts. They would have a 24 Republican majority, that is on the statewide vote, and the 25 Democrats would have a majority in only 41 districts for a

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Page 411 1 bias in favor of Republicans of 18 percentage points in the 2 current plan. 3 The reason Republicans however do not elect a 4 majority of representatives under the current plan is 5 explained by Table 1. That you have five to six Democrats 6 elected in heavily Republican districts. Some of those 7 districts under the current plan such as Mr. Stenholm's 8 District 17 and Mr. Hall's District 4 are so heavily 9 Republican that the Republicans win 70 percent of the mean 10 statewide vote. That would be regarded as packed or wasting 11 Republican votes by most political analysis, but voters 12 split their tickets and elect Democrats. 13 Next point on Table 2, to the extent you 14 change this plan to try simply to elect more Democrats than 15 Republicans you are going to undermine minority interests 16 because as this table indicates Democrats, whether black, 17 white or Hispanic, are much closer to the way in which 18 Hispanics and blacks vote on any NAACP and national Hispanic 19 leadership agenda scores. This is precisely the kind of 20 political power that just a couple of days ago the United 21 States Supreme Court in its Ashcroft decision highlighted. 22 Now with respect to the plan that emerged as amended from 23 the House Committee. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You have a couple 25 of minutes left in your time.

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Page 412 1 THE WITNESS: Can I get a little more time 2 given the nature of my testimony? I will need three or four 3 more minutes. Lots of people had extra time. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have this many 5 people that were in line at 8:30 to testify. 6 THE WITNESS: I was here too. Just three or 7 four minutes. We spend more time wrangling. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You have a couple 9 of more minutes left on your time. I know you do not -- you 10 will be back to testify in Austin next week, will you not? 11 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I have to fly 12 down here., you know, it's very difficult. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You will be back in 14 Austin to testify. 15 THE WITNESS: I have no plans to. It's very 16 difficult for me to get here. I have to fly in from 17 Washington. 18 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I will give 19 him my time. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 21 THE WITNESS: I am really racing through some 22 pretty, you know, detailed and social scientific testimony. 23 With respect to the plan that emerged from the House 24 Committee it is, in fact, substantially more biased toward 25 Republicans than the current plan. Again, on average

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Page 413 1 Democrat -- Republican get 56 percent of the vote, but, in 2 fact, close to 70 percent of the seats. Sixty-nine percent 3 of the seats. Twenty-two out of 32, all but ten, have 4 Republican majorities in them. Not only do they have 5 Republican majorities, if you look at the next chart, chart 6 five, they are all 60 percent or more Republican majorities. 7 In other words, 22 out of 32 seats based on statewide 8 elections from 2002 are 60 percent or more Republicans, and 9 then in turn the ten remaining Democratic seats are packed 10 at very high Democratic percentages, and all competitive 11 seats are like that. You have completely eliminated under 12 this plan any political competition in the State of Texas. 13 Thus when you normalize to 50/50 where it should be even, 14 Republicans win 22 out of 32 seats even if the vote were to 15 be 50/50. 16 For the Democrats to get a majority of the 17 seats, even a bare majority, they would have to get close to 18 60 percent of the state. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is it your 20 testimony that under this map that 22 seats will be elected 21 Republicans? 22 THE WITNESS: No, 22 seats have Republican 23 majorities in them based upon statewide averages. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you define 25 majority?

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Page 414 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, a majority would be if you 2 take all of the statewide votes and you a average them up 3 within a district, a majority Republican would be an average 4 in that district of greater than 50 percent. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That would be 6 50.001. 7 A. But 22 have 59.5, about 60 percent or greater, so 8 these are shaved narrowly Republican. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: So 22 have 60 10 percent or greater? 11 THE WITNESS: That is correct. I found that 12 extraordinary too, Mr. Chairman. I have never seen anything 13 like this in all my analysis. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I didn't find it 15 extraordinary. 16 THE WITNESS: It is extraordinary. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I was asking a 18 question. Under this map over here, what are the 19 percentages. 20 THE WITNESS: Under this map over here -- 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: This is the map 22 that you had testified -- 23 THE WITNESS: -- twenty out of 32. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Twenty out of 32, 25 and 22, so in your testimony net difference is two?

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Page 415 1 THE WITNESS: No, it's much more than that 2 because not only do you have 22 out of 32 having Republican 3 majorities, they have super-Republican majorities. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What about this 5 map? 6 THE WITNESS: Much fewer have 7 super-Republican majority. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What is the number, 9 the majority? 10 THE WITNESS: I would have to count that up. 11 Would you like for me to do that? 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No. It seems that 13 right off the top of your head you don't seem to know much 14 about the map that you want us to heed right off. 15 THE WITNESS: I think I made it very clear 16 under the map you are going to keep substantially fewer than 17 22 seats have super-Republican majorities in them. I don't 18 have the exact count in my head but it's four or five fewer. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: How do you define 20 super-majority. 21 THE WITNESS: Sixty percent or more. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 23 THE WITNESS: That's not just my random 24 definition. That's a pretty standard definition in 25 political analysis when you are hitting around 60 percent

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Page 416 1 you are moving out of the competitive into the safe seats 2 area. I have never seen a situation where you have nearly 3 70 percent of seats made safe for one party. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Proceed. 5 THE WITNESS: Next, I want to analyze the 6 House passed as amended map in terms of the Voting Rights 7 Act. This map in my view clearly violates the Voting Rights 8 Act by dismantling what we call a minority opportunity 9 district without a replacement, and I am talking about 10 District 24 under the existing map which is a majority 11 minority district of both Hispanics and African Americans. 12 There is polarized voting within this district such that in 13 primary elections African Americans tend to vote for African 14 Americans candidates cohesively. Hispanics vote for 15 Hispanics cohesively and Anglos vote for Anglo candidates 16 cohesively. In general -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are going to let 18 you finish this part of your testimony. 19 THE WITNESS: I just got another couple of 20 minutes. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If that's the case 22 without any objection. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 24 And in general elections both Hispanics and 25 African Americans vote overwhelmingly Democratic and Anglos

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Page 417 1 vote Republican. You have the standard bases for doing a 2 voting rights analysis. This district provides effective 3 opportunities for African Americans to elect candidates of 4 their choice because African Americans predominate in the 5 Democratic primary and runoff elections as concretely 6 demonstrated in my tables by looking at the most recent 7 elections for Senate in 2002, and in turn an African 8 American nominated candidate would have an excellent 9 opportunity to then prevail in the general election as a 10 result of the cohesive voting of both the Hispanics and the 11 African American for Democratic candidates. 12 What happens under this plan is this district 13 is dismantled. The African Americans and Hispanics of these 14 districts are either fragmented in overwhelmingly white 15 Republican districts where not only can't they elect 16 candidates of their choice, but they have been influenced or 17 packed into District 30 which already is a safe minority 18 opportunity district. 19 Finally, not only does the plan violate the 20 Voting Rights Act by dismantling an effective minority 21 opportunity district, it violates strictures against race 22 based redistricting as enunciated by the Supreme Court in 23 Shore vs. Reno and in the Vera case here the Texas. 24 There are three districts under the proposed 25 plan. District 9, 15 and 29 that are majority minority

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Page 418 1 districts that have precisely the kind of bizarre and 2 convoluted shapes that prompted courts to disallow similar 3 majority minority districts here in Texas, in Georgia, in 4 Louisiana, and in North Carolina. So you have at one end a 5 violation of the Voting Rights Act and another end a 6 violation of equal protection. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have to cut you 8 off. I appreciate that. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Marchant. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Next testimony will 11 be given by Peggy Polito. 12 THE WITNESS: No questions? 13 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman? 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 15 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Just one observation. 16 While you-all were finishing the testimony I did pull out 17 the general election history for Plan 1151. In the 2000 18 election there were 20 districts that had over a 58 percent 19 Republican statewide percentage. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Mr. Chairman? 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: After Ms. Polito 23 will come -- Mr. Alonzo. 24 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Can I make one quick 25 comment on his testimony real quick?

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Page 419 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: He is going to make 2 a comment. 3 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: I am going to ask him 4 to respond to -- 5 THE WITNESS: I guess he is asking me 6 something. 7 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's what a 8 question is. 9 THE WITNESS: Maybe we will both answer it. 10 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Sir, just real 11 quickly, one of the things that is of concern to me was that 12 this DeLay plan eliminates Hispanic opportunity and 13 influence in North Texas by splitting Hispanic communities 14 in Dallas and Tarrant Counties in six districts; 5, 6, 24, 15 26, 30 and 32. Is that your observation as well? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, as I said as I testified 17 the African American and majority populations are either 18 fragmented or packed into District 30 where they had no 19 additional minority opportunity within District 30. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: So real quickly, in 21 this proposed plan there is no new Hispanic district. There 22 is no new opportunity for Hispanic participation in the 23 Congressional realm. 24 THE WITNESS: They have the same number of 25 Hispanic majority districts both in the existing plan and in

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Page 420 1 this new plan. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ALONZO: Thank you, sir. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I have one question. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But can you -- so 6 you can in commenting on this plan, what it does to take 7 away opportunities just from minorities in this area, does 8 it also create a new Republican seat that one of the members 9 or any of the members on this Committee who live close to 10 here could run for that seat? 11 THE WITNESS: That is correct. I can't 12 comment on what any members might or might not do though. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. Ms. 14 Polito. 15 16 PEGGY POLITO 17 Nay name is Peggy Polito. I live in Carrollton, Texas. I 18 am a long time Republican precinct chairman and I am a widow 19 of a World War II veteran. I remember before I came to 20 Texas that Bruce Alger had to fight in court because the 21 Democrats packed his district. It was called 22 gerrymandering. In the '80's and '90's, same thing by the 23 Democrats. Now the Republicans through hard work. Through 24 hard work, not vote gathering, not vote stealing. Through 25 hard door to door campaigning

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Page 421 1 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Lots of cash. 2 THE WITNESS: No, the Democrats do that 3 honey. We won. We won statewide. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I do not remember 5 there Mr. Lichtman being interrupted by the audience once. 6 Please allow Ms. Polito to give her testimony. 7 THE WITNESS: Through hard grass roots 8 efforts we won. Then we had a bunch of Democrats, and they 9 were only Democrats, that abandoned their job. If anybody 10 has worked for a major corporation, three days you are out. 11 They abandoned their job and went to of all places, Ardmore, 12 Oklahoma. I urge -- I urge the Democrats and Republicans to 13 work together. I urge -- as you expected us to work with 14 you when you were the majority. And for the life of me I 15 don't see what's wrong with this plan other than it disrupts 16 some of your and people of your ilks plans to run for 17 Congress. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am not going to 21 ask her a question, but I just wanted her to know the 22 reference to vote stealing, I have one word, . 23 THE WITNESS: I don't think that was a 24 question. Would you mind repeating your question? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I didn't have a

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Page 422 1 question. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Oh, you didn't have 3 a question. Okay, he didn't have a question. 4 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Mr. Chairman,I do have 5 a question. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You have it of Ms. 7 Polito? 8 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Yes. 9 So that I am clear that I am understanding 10 what you meant, what do you mean when you say "people of 11 your will"? 12 THE WITNESS: I didn't say will. I said ilk. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What did you mean? 14 THE WITNESS: Democrats. The Democrats did 15 go to Ardmore, did they not? Is that not a correct 16 statement? Are they not of your ilk? 17 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: That we went, it was. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, it was people of your 19 ilk. It was Democrats. It was not an insult. No, it's 20 not. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Now I have a 22 question. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond has a 24 question. 25 THE WITNESS: Now you have a question.

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Page 423 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Now I have a 2 question. A very brief question. For four days we were in 3 Ardmore, Oklahoma and you knew where we were. I have a 4 simple question. Do you know where George Bush was the year 5 that he was lost in South Carolina? 6 THE WITNESS: Senator, I will not dignify 7 your statement. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have a lot of 9 people that would like to testify. Mr -- who are you, sir? 10 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Harper. I 11 would like the opportunity to speak on behalf of independent 12 voters. Republicans and Democrats have had an opportunity. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir, but we 14 have to go with the witnesses as they are called. I'm 15 sorry, I can't let you just come up to the podium. 16 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I haven't 17 heard any neutrals. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: There were about 19 between -- there is almost 200 people who registered between 20 8:30 and 9:00, so we are still not to that group. We are 21 not finished with that group yet. I apologize. Do you have 22 a witness affirmation up here? 23 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Yes, I do. I 24 submitted it in the hall. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: If you haven't

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Page 424 1 brought your name or card up here -- 2 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: They requested 3 it up there. I submitted it to them. I don't believe you 4 have called any neutrals. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, sir, you can't 6 give testimony until you are called to give testimony. We 7 will pull your witness affirmation out and I will put it in 8 with this group right here. 9 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Thank you. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't intend -- 11 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I understand. 12 I appreciate the job you are trying to do. I felt I needed 13 to assert myself in a sense of fairness. 14 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Get out. Sit 15 down. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Now, sir, that's 17 not justified. If you will allow me two Chair the meeting, 18 I have tried the explain to him very nicely what the process 19 is, please. Now, let's try to get the testimony given. Mr. 20 David Griggs. Mr. Griggs. 21 DAVID GRIGGS 22 Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the Texas House. My 23 name is David Griggs. I live in Addison, Texan. Yes, 24 Mr. Marchant, you are my State Representative. Thank you 25 for trying to maintain order tonight and all day. We

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Page 425 1 appreciate your effort and also that of the entire

2 Committee.

3 I hope you-all have been listening, however, because I

4 think as you can tell a lot of folks have very strong

5 opinions about this issue, and we would like for you to take

6 those opinions back to your Committee and to your Committee

7 Chair. I have serious concerns about what the Governor is

8 trying to do with redistricting. I am here tonight to

9 register my opposition to any change in the current map.

10 A lot of the reasons why I believe this way

11 have already been mentioned by many of the speakers. The

12 fact that the process played it itself out in the last

13 session, that it was a done deal. That it went to the

14 courts and played itself out there all the way to the

15 Supreme Court and was approved. That two new districts were

16 created, and I might add in the 2002 election that was held

17 under this plan, Republicans actually one those two new

18 districts. So one thing that hasn't been brought out too

19 much today is the fact that the Republicans already have an

20 advantage from the 2000 census with two new districts that

21 were created for and won by Republicans, and now the

22 Governor in special session with pressure from Tom DeLay and

23 others in Washington, are trying the undo what has already

24 been done. The done deal.

25 Mr. Chairman, as a taxpayer in your district and a

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Page 426 1 homeowner, I am not happy with the nearly $2 million that is

2 expected to be spent just in the special session alone. Not

3 to mention the additional monies that are likely to be spent

4 in court challenges if this thing goes through. And in case

5 you haven't noticed, the majority of the folks here, in

6 fact, almost all of the folks here tonight and throughout

7 the day have not been happy with this new plan either.

8 Neither has the Dallas Morning News. "What a shame" its

9 editorial said earlier this week. Let me tell you

10 something, after following the Dallas Morning News for

11 several years, to use the word "shame" in regard to

12 Republican legislators is a remarkable observation.

13 Voters are not stupid. They see what you are up to.

14 They know what to Tom DeLay is trying to do here with this

15 charade. It's nothing more than a blatantly unfair and

16 unconstitutional attempt to grab more power only because you

17 think you have some kind of right or mandate to do so. It's

18 politics at its worst, and there is not a lot of support for

19 it as represented by this audience today, and if you are not

20 careful, it's going to backfire on you.

21 Now, let me bring this home just a moment. Aside from the

22 Constitutional argument which has been made very well by

23 other speakers today, I want to tell you a personal story of

24 a friend of mine. A friend who lives in East Texas named

25 Max. Max is a Democrat, but Max voted for George Bush for

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Page 427 1 President and Rick Perry for Governor. Now, for the life of 2 me I don't know why, but he certainly represents a large 3 number of people. A large number of people in rural Texas 4 who are independent minded and who make their decisions 5 based upon what they feel. Max also voted for Max Sandlin 6 for Congress, and has for years, as do many of his friends, 7 both Democrats and Republicans. In a conversation I had 8 with him today he was so upset with this that he is getting 9 together with several other friends of his, both Democrats 10 and Republicans, to organize a bus to go down to Nacogdoches 11 to the other meeting held in East Texas today simultaneous 12 with this one, and one of the things that he told me today, 13 early this morning when he called, was the one thing he 14 wanted to get across to his group, and I think it's 15 important for you-all to understand too, is that the reason 16 why a lot of Republican officeholders are in office today 17 are because Democrats put them there. People who still 18 consider themselves Democrats who want to have the 19 opportunity to split their vote when they wish, and if they 20 are happy with a Democratic Congressman in their area, they 21 want to still have that right to do so. I would like to put 22 that forward to you, and as some others have said today, as 23 a part of our freedoms as both Americans and especially as 24 Texans, the independent minded Texans that we are, that we 25 can split our votes and have the opportunity to continue to

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Page 428 1 elect people to Congress of one party and perhaps statewide

2 to another party. With this new map on this side that

3 you are proposing or that your Committee is proposing, it

4 will greatly reduce the ability for many of those Texans to

5 do that.

6 So in conclusion I would urge you not to be persuaded or

7 manipulated by the elite right wing Washington power, and I

8 would urge you not to let Tom DeLay mess with Texas.

9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Jan Woody for

10 restricting.

11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, could

12 I --

13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir.

14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: -- before she gets

15 here submit two letters or testimony from two people who had

16 to leave. Juan Perez and -- from Dallas. Myra Perez from

17 Fort Worth. I also wanted to ask you just point of

18 clarification, Mr. Chairman.

19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes.

20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You may have said

21 this and maybe you haven't. Is it your intention not to

22 allow anybody to sign in any more if they want to testify?

23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I said at 8:00

24 o'clock anyone could sign in after 8:00 o'clock.

25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That they can still

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Page 429 1 give oral testimony? 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It is not feasible 3 that they will be able to give testimony because of the 4 several hundred that are ahead of them, but they will be 5 registered in the record either for or against. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So that if you got 7 here after 8:00 you are saying that you cannot -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am saying that it 9 is unfair to them to represent to them that we are going to 10 have physically the time, five minutes per testimony, to 11 hear their testimony in this hearing, and that they will be 12 recorded for or against the Bill and put into the record as 13 was stated. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So this hearing that 15 we are doing now, I suppose you are treating this like other 16 hearings that we do during the regular legislative session 17 and interim studies and so forth. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am treating this 19 hearing -- this the first time I have ever had an interim 20 committee versus the session, and it was posted that we 21 would end at 8:00 o'clock. Ms. Davis asked me if I intend 22 to end at 8:00, and I do not intend to end at 8:00. The 23 testimony time was -- people signed up after 8:00 and I 24 announced that at 8:00 o'clock. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But you are the

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Page 430 1 Chairman. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't know what 3 your question is. You are obviously trying to trip me up 4 and get me to say something wrong. I don't know what your 5 question is. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I am not trying to 7 trip you up. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am trying to 9 answer it honestly. I don't know what your question is. 10 You asked me what I said, and that is what I said. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Now can I ask you to 12 say something else? 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You can ask me. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: My question is have 15 you decided as Chairman to go beyond 8:00 o'clock, which I 16 believe we now have done. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yeah, it's 8:30. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You do have the 19 authority to do that; is that correct? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I believe that I 21 have the authority to do that. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you, 23 Mr. Chairman. Have you ever chaired a committee where you 24 cut off testimony before, because I say this because I have 25 been in the House nine years, and I have never been in front

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Page 431 1 of a committee or a member of a committee where I have seen 2 a chairman cut off testimony at a certain time. What I have 3 always seen, including -- including I might add, Joe Crabb, 4 Chairman of the full Committee, he allowed people to 5 testimony until 5:45 in the morning, and I am just wondering 6 if you are going to treat this hearing differently. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am going to treat 8 it according to the way the rules are posted out front. It 9 said that it would end at 8:00 o'clock. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We have gone beyond 11 8:00. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am going beyond 13 8:00 to try to get as many testimonies in in a reasonable 14 amount of time and I don't know what time we are going to 15 adjourn. I don't know how long physically I can go. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Have you -- well, I 17 asked you to yield the gavel a long time ago, but I am 18 asking you seriously, I am not trying to trip you up. This 19 is a very important issue here. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You want me to name 21 a time that we are going to adjourn? 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, I would like for 23 you to tell me that you are going to allow everybody that 24 wants to come and testify and give oral testimony, that you 25 are not either going to let them or you are not.

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Page 432 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am going to try 2 to. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So there is some 4 that you may not. 5 THE WITNESS: There are some that may not get 6 to testify in this hearing. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: My last question is 8 as the Chairman, have you ever cut off oral testimony from 9 witnesses or people who submitted forms after a certain 10 time? I just want to know if you have ever done it before? 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have never been 12 in a hearing like this before. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So you have never 14 done it before? 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have not -- I 16 have not as a chairman of a committee. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Okay, then I want 18 the record to reflect that you are treating this hearing 19 differently. That you are going to cut off testimony and 20 you have never done it before. That's all. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have not done it 22 yet. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Oh, okay, well I 24 hope you won't. 25 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: Mr. Chairman? Mr.

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Page 433 1 Chairman? 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Dunnam. 3 REPRESENTATIVE DUNNAM: I would like to at 4 this point have Mr. Raymond put something in the record. 5 I have a letter that is signed by a number of 6 the people who rode the bus up here from Waco I am going to 7 submit because the bus had to leave and a number of people 8 who -- there are more people on the bus that had to leave 9 beforehand. There were a lot of people who were not allowed 10 to testify. I know Mr. Marchant -- or I don't know, but I 11 suspect that your involvement in the logistics of this might 12 have been nothing, I don't know. But I will say that -- 13 that the circumstances of my constituents who awoke early 14 this morning and traveled a long distance to arrive not just 15 in time, but very early before the hearing started and then 16 were compelled to leave without being heard illustrates the 17 flaws in an illegitimate process we have. 18 There were insufficient accommodations. Some 19 heavy-handed security and inadequate time to be provided to 20 public input and inconsistent enforcement of the five minute 21 rule. Just like to note my objection. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman. Mr. 24 Chairman, I would like to offer a suggestion. I'm sorry. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The Court Reporter

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Page 434 1 has advised me he needs to take a break for a minute. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I would like the 3 record to reflect that everyone was clapping for the Court 4 Reporter for doing a great job. 5 In an effort to help I think, I would like to 6 make a motion that this subcommittee have a field hearing in 7 Waco, Texas, and I also would like to add to that motion 8 that we have one in Laredo, Texas. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I do not recognize 10 you for that motion, sir. I do not have the authority to 11 grant you that motion. I do not have the authority. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You are Chairman of 13 this subcommittee. You absolutely have the authority to 14 recognize me for a motion that this subcommittee -- 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I do not have the 16 authority to grant that hearing you are asking for. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: How about if I amend 18 my motion to say that I make a motion that we recommend to 19 the full Committee to have a filed hearing in Waco and in 20 Laredo. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would recognize 22 you for that motion. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I have made the 24 motion. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Members, is there

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Page 435 1 any objection to Mr. Raymond's motion? I don't see a

2 motion -- there is no objection to that motion. The motion

3 is adopted.

4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you, very

5 much, Mr. Chairman.

6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are going to let

7 Ms. Woody testify and then we are going to take a five

8 minute break so the gentleman can have a break. Ms. Woody.

9

10 JAN WOODY

11 I am Jan Woody. I am Precinct Chairman in Farmers Branch.

12 I want to thank you gentlemen and ladies for your attention

13 and I appreciate your time and listening. Currently Kenny

14 Marchant is my State Representative. He has not always

15 been. At one point my husband wanted to vote early in an

16 election and found out that our precinct and one other in

17 Farmers Branch had been grouped in with Dallas. More

18 recently two precincts in south Carrollton were taken out of

19 Kenny's district and grouped in with Oak Cliff with no prior

20 warning to him.

21 During the course of my work as precinct chair I have had

22 to try to explain why one family's House was placed in one

23 Congressional District, while another across the street was

24 in another Constitutional District, and another that was one

25 across the alley from him was in a third Congressional

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Page 436 1 District. I have to get a house by house map to be able to 2 tell my constituents in my precinct which house was in which 3 one of three state Senate districts. There are those state 4 legislators who overlook map lines such as Kenny. I do a 5 lot of volunteer work in the Carrollton, Farmers Branch 6 area. To the best of my knowledge anytime anyone has called 7 upon him to help in any community effort, he has been there 8 to help. His staff -- he and his staff don't ask where do 9 you live but how can we help? I am in favor of letting the 10 legislature do what the court has requested and let the 11 lines be drawn. Thank you. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: As we take a break 13 and stand at ease, I am more than happy to discuss with 14 Mr. Raymond the plans for the rest of the evening, and we 15 will do everything I physically can to accommodate the 16 witnesses that are here to testify. Committee stand at 17 ease. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Chairman, I 19 would like to just thank the Court Reporter. You know, I 20 just now realized, folks, we have been able to go in and out 21 all day long. This man has been sitting here all day long. 22 I think everyone owes him a little credit. 23 (Recess from 8:42 p.m. to 8:52 p.m.) 24 MR. MARCHANT: Court Reporter is back. We 25 are ready to get started again. Mr. Jack Borden will be our

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Page 437 1 first witness. Mr. Raymond has a request that he want to 2 make at the beginning and I will recognize Mr. Raymond. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Yes, sir, 4 Mr. Chairman and for anybody who can hear us out there going 5 to the bathroom or sitting in here, you and I were 6 discussing what the process would be at this point, and I 7 would like to make a motion that anyone who has filled out 8 an affirmation form and wants to give testimony should be 9 allowed to give testimony. That's my motion. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Because that's the 12 way I have always seen it done in the nine years I have 13 served on committees. I have never chaired one but that's 14 the way I have seen it done. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I made a phone call 16 and asked the phone call be made to see if any other of the 17 subcommittees that have met so far and have met today have 18 adjourned without having heard -- you asked me if there was 19 some precedent, and I am trying to find that out right now 20 if any of the other subcommittees have met in this process 21 and have adjourned at the 8:00 o'clock or without having 22 been able to hear everyone, and I would ask that you would 23 allow me to get the answer to that before we take a vote on 24 this motion because I intend to abstain from the vote on 25 that motion.

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Page 438 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Say again, sir? 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I intend to abstain 3 from the vote on that motion. I would like to have 4 Mr. Isett here, and I would like to know if any -- you asked 5 me if there was any precedent for adjourning, and I have 6 asked that question. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I 8 would think that -- I certainly would have no problem with 9 your voting on that motion. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I intend to abstain 11 like I abstained on the earlier vote. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, the earlier 13 vote was your giving up the gavel because of your conflict 14 of interest. 15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Why do we need 16 that motion? We are sitting here, we are listening to 17 witnesses. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Because he's been 19 asking me. We talked awhile ago and he asked me to make it. 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I think we just 21 proceed. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would ask that 23 you allow Mr. Isett to be here before we take action. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I suggest we 25 proceed and start hearing witnesses again.

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Page 439 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would like to

2 have Mr. Isett here before we take any action on this so we

3 will go to Mr. Borden and deal with it When Mr. Isett

4 returns.

5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: How about I just

6 withdraw my motion for now and go forward with witnesses?

7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I would appreciate

8 it.

9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Tell me when you

10 want to revisit it.

11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Soon as Mr. Isett

12 is here we will revisit it.

13 Mr. Borden. Mr. Jack Borden.

14

15 JACK BORDEN

16 Good evening, my name is jack Borden. I am here today

17 because I am dismayed about certain things that have been

18 happening since Mr. Perry has taken over office. I want to

19 let you know I am a Vietnam veteran. I coached -- I was a

20 swimming coach in the '64 Olympics in Tokyo, and a former

21 precinct chair and an election judge.

22 That map over there that was designed by some judges a

23 while back, I don't like it, but I sure the hell don't like

24 this. This map over here I could live with. Now, under the

25 Constitution of the United States, if I am not mistaken, the

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Page 440 1 original document the Congress was told that they would 2 redistrict every ten years. We in the State of Texas, the 3 Governor would refuse to redistrict. He told the Republican 4 Senate not to do anything back three years ago. That's why 5 we had to go to the courts. The courts approved that. It 6 went all the way up to the Supreme Court. This body -- this 7 Governor now says that the Supreme Court was not right. 8 I just want to ask you one dumb question. If 9 the Supreme Court was not right on this, then the Supreme 10 Court sure to hell was not right when they appointed 11 Mr. Bush as the President of the United States. What is 12 good for the State of Texas right now is that we are going 13 to spend $1.7 million on this redistricting when the 14 teachers in this state need that money to continue teaching. 15 Every thing that this Committee and this 16 Legislature does is going to be null and void any way. You 17 saw the two decisions that came down from the courts. So if 18 you don't wake up, smell the roses and start doing things 19 for all of the people in the State of Texas, then you might 20 as well kiss everything else good-bye. And I'm sorry. I 21 don't usually get that veracious on it, but I am a little 22 upset. 23 Now, there was a question asked about what -- 24 where Mr. Bush was in 1985. I just want to ask where was 25 Mr. Bush on his last year of military service when he was

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Page 441 1 AWOL for the whole year which was kept quiet. I appreciate 2 it. My main concern is that we stop wasting the taxpayers 3 money on what we are doing now and go forward and keep that 4 map, and six more years down the road we will redistrict and 5 do it the proper way. Thank you. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Dorothy Palumbo. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, can I 8 submit two more letters for you? 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Testimony from 11 people who were here that have left. Rhonda Blair in Dallas 12 and Hilde or Hilda Tipton from Carrollton. If I could 13 submit that. Their vote is against but I guess match them 14 up with the form. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The text of the 16 statements, we will match them up the witness affirmation. 17 Yes, ma'am. 18 DOROTHY PALUMBO 19 Yes, Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. My name is 20 Dorothy Palumbo. I am an attorney and Legislative 21 Coordinator for the city of Denton. I am here on behalf of 22 the Mayor, Euline Brock, whose name you know who advocates 23 for the city of Denton during every legislative session. 24 In January our City Council passed a Resolution 25 authorizing Mayor Brock to submit letters and submit

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Page 442 1 testimony on issues such as this. I do have a letter from

2 Mayor Brock. I will sum up the letter. She is against any

3 changes in the current map. The city would like to maintain

4 the current boundaries of House District 26. A district

5 held by Congressman Michael Burgess. One of the fundamental

6 requirements for drawing district lines is that communities

7 of interest be respected and kept within the same district

8 when possible.

9 The map that is proposed adds Denton County to areas

10 of Cook County, all of Wise County, all of Parker County,

11 and then comes down and snatches up some neighborhoods in

12 Fort Worth. In southeast Fort Worth. These are not

13 communities of interest. The rural counties do not have the

14 same concerns as the city of Denton, and the county of

15 Denton and the southeast neighborhood in Fort Worth would be

16 completely disenfranchised under that plan.

17 Our district elected Dr. Michael Burgess. He comes from a

18 medical background. He has been working very independently

19 to become acquainted with the people, the economy and the

20 social issues of our district. He has learned about

21 transportation, air quality, mobility problems. He sought

22 appointment to the House Transportation Infrastructure

23 Committee. He has the support of many elected and people

24 within the district to continue this work, and that is some

25 of our concerns that our neighboring districts do not share

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Page 443 1 with us. We -- the city asks you not to dilute the efforts 2 of Dr. Burgess by combining our county with these other 3 counties and with the other neighborhoods within southeast 4 Fort Worth. That concludes my testimony. I would be glad 5 to answer any questions. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, 7 Mr. Palumbo. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you, and I do have the 9 Mayor's remarks. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Cynthia Duran -- 11 Duran. Durbin. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman? 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Could I submit a 15 couple of more documents? 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: A letter from 18 Justice of the Peace Manuel Valdez, Tarrant County who is 19 opposed to redistricting. I will hand that to 20 Mr.Grusendorf. A petition signed with names, addresses 21 cities, people from Fort Worth, Richardson, several cities 22 in this area. Appears to me to be about, I don't know, 200 23 or so that are opposed to taking up congressional 24 redistricting. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is it your belief

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Page 444 1 that these were filled out with affirmation forms and need 2 to be attached to that? 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I don't know. You 4 have enough forms that they could probably match up. They 5 are enough to match up all those papers but I don't know 6 about the witness affirmation forms. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 8 CYNTHIA J. DURBIN 9 My name is Cynthia Durbin. I live in Dallas. I said on my 10 form that I both wanted to represent as a person of all 11 seasons both the urban dweller and the small town. And then 12 I want to represent myself and my family of four children, 13 four grandchildren, and many extended family members. 14 The reason I feel I represent the small town 15 and the urban dweller is I live in Dallas -- I have lived in 16 Dallas since 1966. I have lived at the same address in my 17 property since 1968 in Dallas, and I also own property in 18 Leon County in a place called Hilltop Lakes Estates, which 19 is a very small town community. I pay taxes in both 20 communities and the district -- the Leon district is going 21 to be changed from District 5 to District 2, and then I am 22 in District 32 in Dallas, and it was mostly up in the 23 northwest corner of Dallas County, and now it's going to 24 kind of flip down that end of it into the center part of 25 Dallas.

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Page 445 1 I am also a veteran. I have retired from the 2 U.S. Coast Guard Reserve. I served for 26 years. I was 3 called up for the Gulf War along with two of my daughters 4 for the Gulf War. And my elder daughter was called up -- I 5 retired, and my other daughter retired, and my elder 6 daughter was called up for 9/11. She would be in Iraq right 7 now but her 20 year came up, but members that she 8 was called up with are still there and have been sent over 9 to Iraq. 10 I grew up in a small town of 10,000 people on 11 the coast of Texas in an oil town, but then in my -- most of 12 my adult life I have lived in Dallas, Texas. I am 63 years 13 old and I have seen the changes -- political changes in 14 Texas through my lifetime. I am for a two party state. I 15 was around when the Democrats were the only party and I 16 didn't think -- you know I saw the shenanigans going on 17 then. I consider myself mostly an independent voter. 18 However, I have been a Democratic precinct chairman. I was 19 an alternate to the 1968 Democratic convention. I have gone 20 to several state Democratic conventions, but I vote -- I 21 have voted for Republicans when I thought they were the best 22 person, and I have voted for the Green Party when I thought 23 they were the best person. 24 My real concern is that in my lifetime I saw 25 civil rights begin to come about for the people that should

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Page 446 1 have their civil rights enforced. I was one of the lucky 2 ones. I was a white WASP so I had everything, but my 3 friends and neighbors didn't, and so I saw this happen in my 4 lifetime. As a child I was abhorred when my -- people in my 5 town had to drink at different drinking fountains. I was 6 abhorred when I rode on a bus from Austin to Dallas for a 7 wedding as a young woman and I just walked on the bus, and I 8 like to kind of be alone, and I went to the back of the bus 9 and there was nothing but black people on the back of the 10 bus. It was one of those all night express buses. We came 11 into this little town at dawn. It was cold and all of the 12 black people on the bus sat outside on a bench and the white 13 people went into the cafe and ate. So I stayed outside. I 14 just thought that was horrible. Well, civil rights has 15 ended this. Then later on I found out that up the road when 16 I was a kid in Huntsville they were still lynching people, 17 and hopefully this won't ever happy again, but now I am 18 starting to see with this kind of redistricting an erosion 19 of people's rights just like I have seen the erosion of the 20 protection of our environment, the protection of our 21 workers. 22 So I am against this redistricting Bill 23 because I am a red-blooded American. I always will be, and 24 I intend to support the rights of all my red-blooded 25 Americans. Thank you.

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Page 447 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Charles Stovall. 2 L. CHARLES STOVALL 3 Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. I am L. Charles 4 Stovall, the Pastor of the Camp Wisdom United Methodist 5 Church, the President of the Southern Leadership Conference 6 of Texas, Chairman of the Unified Organizations for Justice, 7 and I stand to speak against restricting. I have heard a 8 lot of testimony today that resonates with me in terms of 9 the negative impact that redistricting would have on 10 communities and also on people of color. And as I listen to 11 the numbers of people that came forth, I can't help but to 12 wonder as you as Chair and others on this Committee hear the 13 various concerns, are you really listening? 14 There used to be a school board here that got the 15 reputation of being called the slam dunk club, and that's 16 because no matter what was said before that school board the 17 minds had already been set and made up, and all of the 18 witness testimony and all of the talk was just falling on 19 deaf ears. I stand to appeal to you as Chair and to others 20 to really listen to what the people are saying today, 21 because these are important issues. We have fought too hard 22 and we have had too long of a chance to see all of these 23 things eroded because of a power grab, and that's what it 24 is. We have heard that over and over again, and that is not 25 just what people are saying. That is what this is. This a

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Page 448 1 grab for power, and this a time when you really have an

2 opportunity to bring cohesiveness to the community. At the

3 same time instead of bringing cohesiveness, we are seeing

4 this power grab.

5 I have heard people make references to the Democrats that

6 went to Ardmore, and I want to say to Ms. Hodge, to Yvonne

7 Davis, to others that made that great stand, you represented

8 me when you did that, because when you made that move, it

9 became clear that you saw a railroad, and you knew a

10 railroad when it came and you avoided being railroaded, and

11 if it happened again if you could do it again, I want to

12 urge you, go to Ardmore one more time because it makes no

13 sense.

14 This map that we have now, I could understand if you

15 can stand up and state to this community that the map was

16 done in 2001 was legally not right. If the map had some

17 problem with it that could be legally tested in court, you

18 cannot do that. That's a legal map. That's a map that the

19 Supreme Court has said is a legal map. That's a map that

20 was done right after the 2000 census. That map needs to

21 stand until the next census is done, and at that point if

22 disagree, it becomes a legitimate issue.

23 Now, after all you have heard today, I don't know

24 how anyone can go back and with a good conscience vote on

25 redistricting. And I say like the other brother said, $1.7

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Page 449 1 million dollars to go back into session when we have had our

2 college students being told that they won't have money to go

3 to school next year, that's ridiculous. $1.7 million

4 dollars when we are telling some parents that their children

5 can't have health care, that's ridiculous. $1.7 million

6 dollars to come back into session for something that has

7 already been decided in the middle of a budget crunch.

8 Now, how do you say you have the best interest of

9 Texas in mind when you are squandering money that way. I

10 would like to know from you, sirs, after what you have heard

11 today. After what you have heard today, are you going to be

12 brave enough to take a stand and say that this redistricting

13 is wrong, and that the map we have ought to stand until

14 after the next census is taken. I just wonder if you are

15 really that brave. Thank you for your time.

16 Excuse me, this gentlemen has already spoken. He is

17 not in order.

18 THE WITNESS: I haven't recognized him. I am

19 going to recognize Ms. Hodge right now. Then I will ask the

20 gentleman what question he has. I recognize Ms. Hodge.

21 REPRESENTATIVE HODGES: Reverend Stovall.

22 THE WITNESS: Yes.

23 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Thank you very much,

24 but let me ask you a question. In all of our conversations

25 today we have talked about the reasons for redistricting.

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Page 450 1 Not so good reasons for redistricting. A lady asked earlier 2 about the number of women that we currently have in the 3 state and if we were doing things fairly, why would we not 4 draw maps in a way that more women can win. Let me ask you, 5 do you think that what we are doing here now will make it 6 more easy let's say, or protect a way for more Republicans 7 to actually be able to win an election in a noncompetitive 8 way where they are becoming like a protective class of 9 people where they simply will be elected in a primary. 10 Democrats elected in a primary which may cause no need for 11 general elections; do you see us moving in that direction? 12 THE WITNESS: If the redistricting was 13 carried out, definitely so. If the redistricting was 14 carried out. Anytime you have a plan that is premedicated 15 that automatically gives five or six seats more to a 16 particular party, that automatically sets that party up to 17 have an advantage, and I see no other way to look at this. 18 I see no other way to look at this except for a power grab. 19 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: So would you agree 20 with me that as it relates to the Voting Rights Act, when it 21 comes to voting we have protected classes, but not protected 22 parties. 23 THE WITNESS: I agree. 24 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Thank you. 25 THE WITNESS: I certainly agree.

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Page 451 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Chair recognizes 2 Rick Nuedoerf to testify for the redistricting Bill. Rick 3 Nuedorf to testify for the redistricting Bill. Carlos 4 Aguilar. After Carlos, Tom Ferguson who is for the 5 redistricting Bill. Carlos Aguilar. After that will be 6 Mark Greene. And if they are here if you would start moving 7 towards the front row. After that is Donica Willaert. 8 We asked about two and-a-half hours ago if 9 you would bring your name up here. 10 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I did that. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The result of that 12 is this stack here. I am working through it as fast as I 13 can. 14 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I'm sorry, did 15 you say the name Donica Willaert? 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. 17 Yes, sir. 18 CARLOS H. AGUILAR 19 Buenas noches. That means good evening to all you-all. My 20 name is Carlos Aguilar, and I been here since 8:30 like most 21 people here still left that hasn't spoke, and since I been 22 here since 8:30, I have listened to everyone who spoke in 23 front of me. We been saying the same thing. The message to 24 you-all is this ain't right. Bottom line it's not just 25 right. This is wrong to do. We got a map that the court --

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Page 452 1 the Supreme Court of the Texas approved. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: The U.S. 3 THE WITNESS: Sorry. The United States 4 Supreme Court approved. I stand corrected. Thank you. I 5 been here since 8:30. I haven't had lunch, dinner and I 6 missed two weddings and two baby showers. I am a little 7 tire and irritated. The Supreme Court approved the map, and 8 the Constitution states that we do it every ten years, so 9 are we in Texas? You know, I always thought that Texas is 10 bigger and better than anything. That's how I grew up. I 11 am fourth generation Texan. My father fought in World War 12 II. My grandfather was born here in Texas. And I 13 understand from my family tree that even before it became 14 Texas my family was already here by the Brazos River, so I 15 have been here a long time. My family been here a long 16 time, and we see what this is going through. This is just 17 totally wrong. Totally not right. 18 What we asking you to do is to do the right 19 thing. You know, come down from our high horse of being 20 Texans that we can rule the country and be bigger than life, 21 and, you know, being from Texas I believe that. But being 22 from Texas and believing that doesn't mean we have to run 23 over our own people, and that's what we are doing if we 24 approve this. If we go through with this or approve this, 25 the new map. We are running over our people who fought side

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Page 453 1 by side. Who walked -- who picked your grapes and your 2 fruit. People who have been there proudly, you know, and 3 now you are going to walk all over them. No, that's wrong. 4 Totally wrong. And if I wasn't tired, I would go on, but I 5 want to close. 6 When I was in Cockrell Hill the Hispanic 7 people asked for a seat in Cockrell Hill back in '88. The 8 Congressmen were all Anglo and they were all male. One 9 person unfortunately passed away. There was a seat open. 10 Being 66 percent Hispanic in Cockrell Hill, we figured one 11 seat. That's all we asked for. They wouldn't give it to 12 us. It wasn't a majority vote or anything. But at least we 13 got somebody who we can speak to. The people who didn't 14 speak English, we had somebody who knew Spanish. They 15 laughed at us. They told us this wasn't a candy store. If 16 we wanted candy, we had to go buy it. That year a few of us 17 Hispanics got together. By the end of the next election we 18 had four seats out of the six seats. So, yes, there is a 19 lesson to be learned, and instead of we had to fight for it 20 which, you know, that's how this country was born. We 21 fought for our rights and we fought for our freedom, but we 22 are beyond that point of fighting. We should be able to 23 communicate to know what is right for us, for this country, 24 for this state and for the people of the state, and 25 unfortunately we are going backwards. You know, I know that

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Page 454 1 redoing this map is like candy for the Republican Party, and 2 if we have to go fight for our candy like we did in Cockrell 3 Hill, we are willing to do that. But why should we? You 4 should be above all that and just do the right thing. Thank 5 you. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Carlos Aguilar. 7 THE WITNESS: That was me. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: That's you. I'm 9 sorry. Okay, Marciela Aguilar. Then we are going to have 10 Thomas Ferguson, and then Mark Greene, and then D-O-N-I-C-A, 11 Willaert. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Willaert. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: That's the order 14 we are going to go in. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Come on down, 16 Ms. Willaert. I didn't know his wife was with him. Since 17 we announced otherwise Mrs. Aguilar, if you don't mind, 18 Ms. Willaert, if you will just have a seat there real quick. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I was just 20 indicating the others that would be following. I was 21 recognizing Maricela Aguilar first. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I already named out 23 her name. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: We will get back 25 to you.

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Page 455 1 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: That's okay. 2 I have been here since 8:30. I can wait five more minutes. 3 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Sorry. I did not 4 realize his wife was with him. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: For the record 6 with all this confusion, please state your name. 7 JEANNINE WILLAERT 8 My name is Jeannine Willaert. Donica Willaert is my 9 daughter. She and I wrote the context of what I am about to 10 give today. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You do have a 12 witness affirmation? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, you have mine. I have 14 been here since 8:30 this morning. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Go ahead. 16 THE WITNESS: And I am against and she is 17 against. And I know all of you are very tired and so is 18 everyone out here today or rather this evening. 19 My name is Jeannine Willaert. I am in 20 Dallas, Texas I am Democratic Precinct Chair for 1109, and 21 the comments and opinions in this text are my own with the 22 help from my daughter, and since everybody has mentioned it 23 I will to, my daughter is a disabled American veteran. And 24 as all women in the service from the American Revolution to 25 today, my daughter was a volunteer, which I happen to be

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Page 456 1 extremely proud of. 2 Good or bad she and I wrote this speech and 3 we are not speechwriters but it's merely our opinion. Also 4 I am from Temple, Texas and I was raised at a time when 5 there was segregation and that was the way I was raised 6 there. My daughter I have raised to be color blind, and 7 also in our house we have tolerance, and this is the way 8 that we live our lives. I happen to be on the Wall of 9 Tolerance in Birmingham, Alabama that's run by the Marcie 10 and Rosa Parks Association. So we have many friends and we 11 never look to see what religion, what color, where did they 12 come from, what financial situation they are in. They are 13 just friends. 14 Now I have timed myself. By the way, I would 15 like the tell you where these opinions have come from. I am 16 a small business owner. I am an investigator, a negotiator, 17 a mediator, an affiliator,and also I am a problem solver, so 18 if any of you need any help I will be glad to pass out my 19 business card. My training has really come in good today. I 20 am still in a good mood. 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Do you have an 22 alternative mediated map? 23 THE WITNESS: I can get one. I can do 24 anything. Surprise of surprise, I can do it, but I don't do 25 it free.

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Page 457 1 I would like to thank the Committee for 2 having this hearing in Dallas and for the opportunity of 3 speaking before you. However, since the redistricting 4 proposal by Phil King, a Republican of Weatherford is going 5 to be filed Monday, June the 30th, before all of the hearing 6 deadlines, it is giving the appearance of a GOP public 7 stunt. The major duty of your job as a member of the House 8 of Representatives is being a good listener, whether it's 9 listening to your colleagues, all the people of your 10 district, and across the entire State of Texas. This 11 Committee has required feedback and are enlisting the 12 support of Texas voters. 13 However, the feelings of the Texas voters are 14 increasingly being alienated by the actions of the Texas GOP 15 led House and Senate. This special session should never 16 have been called since the districting issue was settled two 17 years ago and this is a tragic waste of our money, the 18 residents of Texas. State -- go ahead and applaud. State 19 and local governments draw boundaries every ten years, if 20 needed, to reflect population changes, not focus on district 21 voting outcomes. 22 Dr. I'm sorry, Representative Phil King, 23 Representative Republican, is quoted in the Dallas Morning 24 News as saying, "Texas needs to send a few more GOP 25 Congressmen to Washington so that we can help President Bush

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Page 458 1 in accomplishing his agenda." That quote is crystal clear 2 as to the reason this special session was called and how the 3 GOP plans to pay for it. With Texas money. 4 In closing, I would like to refresh your 5 memory as to the State of Texas Oath of Office in case none 6 of you know what it is. It's "I, Richard Raymond, do 7 solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the duties of 8 the office of the Texas House of Representatives of the 9 State of Texas, and will to the best of my ability preserve, 10 protect, and defend the Constitution and laws of the United 11 States, and of this State, so help me God." 12 You are a Texas elected State Representative 13 and receive money from the Texas state budget. I would like 14 to remind Representative Tom DeLay, Republican, Sugarland, 15 House Majority Leader, that he is a federal elected House 16 Representative. He represents the entire United States on 17 federal issues and his place of business is Washington D.C. 18 Perhaps he needs to review his own oath of office. The 19 Texas State House is not mentioned. I would like to send a 20 message to Representative Tom DeLay, and I would like to 21 clear up this message first because the Texas Highway 22 Department uses a slogan in the State of Texas, and it was 23 borrowed by George Bush during one of his campaigns, so I 24 would like to return it to Representative Tom the DeLay, 25 "Don't Mess With Texas".

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Page 459 1 No questions? 2 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Mr. Chairman, may I 3 ask a question? 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, Mr. Vernon. 5 It's go going to be a real simple question. 6 THE WITNESS: I reserve the right to refuse 7 to answer. 8 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: No problem. When you 9 read the oath of office which I don't think I have read 10 since January. 11 THE WITNESS: You signed it. It's on file. 12 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: I don't think I have 13 read it since January, but I think there was a line in there 14 saying that it was specifically our duty to uphold the 15 Constitution, and my question to you is if we think the most 16 effective thing that we can do to uphold the Constitution, 17 and protect the Voting Rights Act and basic fundamental 18 rights of our constituents, you think the appropriate thing 19 to do is flee the state as a tactical retreat? 20 THE WITNESS: I am glade that you did bring 21 up that subject, and, in fact, I meant to comment on it 22 earlier. I was terrified that the State Representative 23 Democrats would not do this. I have to tell you that I 24 voted every single election and how -- sense I became voting 25 age. I vote city, county, state, and also federal, and I

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Page 460 1 don't miss a one. I had a great grandmother that was a 2 suffragette and I am very proud of that. My daughter has 3 done the same. We are vigilant about our vote. In fact, 4 she hounds me if I try to get out of it, but the answer to 5 your question is I was shocked and I was absolutely 6 delighted that you did, and I called -- I called Democratic 7 Party and praised you. I meant to send all of you e-mails 8 but I'm sorry, I just had so much business I couldn't get 9 around to it. I was very, very proud of you, and of course 10 that was exactly what you should have done. I want to thank 11 you for it. 12 I also would like to say one other thing to 13 this Committee. That my remarks are not directed to any of 14 you personally. It is directed to the situation basically, 15 and I hope that all of you will give it some serious thought 16 about listening to your constituents because we started off 17 today, and this is my criticism of this type of meeting. We 18 started off with elected officials which took up practically 19 all of the day. Had I known this beforehand, I really 20 wouldn't have come more than likely because I think it was 21 what, 4:00 o'clock before anybody else got to speak. We 22 have been up since 6:00 o'clock and my daughter is a 23 diabetic. I haven't fed her yet. Anyway, that is my 24 suggestion to the Committee. If you would like to call me 25 for other suggestions, feel free.

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Page 461 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, very 2 much. Go take care of the diabetic. Maricela Agular. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: 4 MARICELA AGUILAR 5 Buenas noches. (Witness speaking Spanish.) 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We will have to ask 7 the interpreter to interpret for us. 8 THE WITNESS: That's all right, I will do it 9 myself. Good evening. I would like to welcome all of the 10 State Representatives to the beautiful city of Dallas. 11 Thank you for being here this evening. Better? 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. My name is Maricela 14 Agular. I am here representing myself, my family, my 15 children, my grandchildren. I am the Precinct Chair for 16 2216. I am a former member of the Grand Jury. I have 17 served as election judge in my precinct. I am currently the 18 Chairwoman of the Health and Human Services Commission for 19 the city of Dallas, and as a fourth generation Latino 20 taxpayer who votes, I am here tonight to testify against you 21 going into -- excuse me, redistricting again. As it has 22 been said so many times this evening, the census numbers 23 speak for themselves. The Latino population is exploding, 24 especially here in the North Texas area. And I probably 25 don't need to remind you that Latinos are not all, you know,

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Page 462 1 of voting age. But then again, that is not what we are 2 supposed to be taking into consideration when we consider 3 redistricting. As it has been said so many times already 4 today, this is about everyone. All of those little Latinos 5 that are under the age of five. Those kids need to be 6 represented. We need this map, despite the fact that I 7 don't think it is the best map either, and I was in Austin 8 more than once in 2001 testifying at that time making 9 recommendations. 10 I am not as happy as I could be with this 11 mane, but it's a map that I am willing to live with. It's a 12 map that the people in my community are willing to live 13 with. Enough. Enough of the games. We don't have the 14 luxury to spend any amount of money on a special session, 15 not when a 150,000 children are being denied health care 16 because of the recent budget cuts that were necessary. 17 You know what my husband says is true, 18 Frances Santiago was saying vows at Saint Edwards Church, 19 but I was here. At 6:30 this evening my friend who have 20 known since I was five was taking vows at the Radisson Hotel 21 down the street, and my friend, Sarah Huey who was having a 22 baby, unfortunately I found out lost her baby and we didn't 23 get to have her shower, I was here because those are only 24 three people in my life, but the rest of the people that 25 matter to me are my community, are conchitos and conchitas,

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Page 463 1 and five of them are my grandkids, okay? 2 So I am here to tell you that I waited since 3 8:30 this morning to talk to you gentlemen because it's 4 about time that you start listening. Listening to what all 5 of the people said here today. Take this message back to 6 Austin. Take this message back to Rick Perry, and if it 7 needs to be loud and clear that we don't want you to revisit 8 redistricting. We are going to live with this map. We are 9 going to deal with this map, and we will redistrict again as 10 the law says in ten years, which will be eight years from 11 now. Not because the Republicans decided that we are going 12 to do it again in two years because you didn't get what you 13 wanted back in 2001. No, it isn't fair. It is not 14 acceptable, and as I said earlier alto, it needs to stop 15 now. 16 I still wish my friends good luck and I wish 17 you good luck because you are going to need it. If this 18 redistricting has to happen. If you go forward with this, I 19 guarantee you it's not going to be just me that's going to 20 be at the polls. It's not just going to be me working the 21 election. It's not going to be me calling Terri Hodge, 22 Roberto Alonzo and everybody else that will listen. It's 23 going to be my kids, my family. It's going to be my 24 extended family. As the census numbers show, we are here 25 and we ain't going nowhere. Buenas noches.

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Page 464 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thomas Ferguson.

2 Is Thomas Ferguson here.

3 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I was part of

4 the next ones you called that was here and you went right

5 past. The next name here is Mark Greene. Thomas Ferguson

6 and then Mark Greene. Thomas Ferguson did not testify.

7 Thomas Ferguson is for Mark Greene is against.

8 THE WITNESS:

9 MARK GREENE

10 My name is Mark Greene. I am a recently retired elected

11 official and a I am a former congressional candidate in the

12 12th Congressional District, and one thing that I find

13 interesting is that several people said that redistricting

14 didn't occur. When I ran in 2000 the 12th District was

15 about a 50/50 district and now it's about a 56/44 district,

16 so I think that something occurred sometime between now and

17 then. I have a few things that I would like to talk about

18 this evening and I call it cause and effect. I always tell

19 me when you are evaluating, say you got to get down to the

20 root causes before you can figure out what you are going to

21 do about it.

22 Before I start that I want to start with two questions.

23 One of which I know the answer to and the second one I

24 don't. Since I am not an elected official, lawyer or

25 running for office I think it's safe to go ahead and ask it.

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Page 465 1 The first one is looking at federal offices and statewide 2 offices, which do you think from your experience and what 3 you know is most pleasant to serve in? Federal and 4 statewide, which do you think the camaraderie, the civility, 5 you know, which do you think would be the most pleasant to 6 serve in? 7 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Used to be the Texas 8 House. 9 THE WITNESS: I this it's the United States 10 Senate, and you know why? Because there is no 11 redistricting. There is no redistricting. The six year 12 terms are nice too, but they don't have to go out and chew 13 each others heads off. They know they are not going to have 14 to. There is no redistricting. You people are going into 15 this voluntarily. 16 The second question I don't know the answer 17 to. I would like for you to think about it and hopefully 18 maybe answer it to me at the end of this, is under what 19 authority is this action even being undertaken? And the 20 reason I ask that is this, and I am not a lawyer and I am 21 not a Constitutional scholar, but I looked through the Texas 22 Constitution and I could not see any reference to 23 congressional reapportionment. I am not arguing that we 24 don't have that right or duty, I am just saying I couldn't 25 find the reference. I did find reference to House and

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Page 466 1 Senate -- State House and Senate reapportionment so I 2 presume that there was some attachment there. It did refer 3 that it happen in the year following the census. 4 Mr. Islett (sic) this is Constitution, it's 5 Article 1 -- I'm sorry, Isett. It's Article 1, Section 2, 6 not Section 4. Section 4 is elections. Section 2 is 7 apportionment. In Section 2 it also refers to it being done 8 immediately after the census, okay? We are going to the 9 root here. 10 The root causes why we are here -- the 11 alleged cause is one of them has been addressed so I am just 12 going to try to gloss over it, was this silly, interesting 13 Republican notion of this aggregated statewide count that 14 was supposed to be reflected in the Congressional 15 representation. I don't know where that came from. It has 16 been fairly well shot down. I do have a document however, 17 and it's very much on line with what Mr. Hammett had, except 18 percentages. I like percentages better. Raw numbers are 19 really hard to digest, and you and I know that the object of 20 the game for Tom DeLay is he wants to pick up at least five 21 districts -- five seats, and we have all pretty much 22 conceded that there are 21 -- 2 Republican districts in 23 Texas right know, and the fact that there are five 24 Democratic Congress persons serving in five Republican 25 districts is not our fault. Not our fault.

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Page 467 1 I will tell you -- I will tell you what, the 2 district, District 1 voted in 2002 with these new -- with 3 this map right over here, they voted for Rick Perry 4 60 percent and they voted for the Supreme Court candidate 5 57 percent, but your Republican candidate lost. The 6 Democrat had 56 percent. In District 2 it was 60 percent 7 for the Governorship -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Greene -- 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: -- we have been 11 through those numbers several times today. 12 THE WITNESS: That's fine, but the point 13 is -- the point is and it's kind of interesting because the 14 Republicans are the party that seems to be so opposed to 15 affirmative action and quotas, yet it sounds to me like what 16 we are talking about here is quotas, and the problem is not 17 the lines. The problem is apparently that you have 18 unqualified or incompetent candidates running for these 19 offices. I would strongly suggest -- what I would strongly 20 suggest is rather than Tom DeLay taking $10 million, which 21 is at least what this thing is going to cost by the time you 22 have your special session and all of the court fights, 23 taking $10 million dollars of our money to try to accomplish 24 his task, why doesn't he go to George Bush's pioneers and 25 get $10 million dollars worth of their money, go buy five

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Page 468 1 candidates and win the dang race. 2 The second alleged reason that we are going 3 through this is because quote, unquote, the Legislature in 4 2001 never did their job. I suggest they did. You-all were 5 there. You-all are duly elected officials. Every one of 6 you was there I am certain, right? The Governor was there. 7 The Lt. Governor, Bill Ratliff at the time, a Republican was 8 there. Everybody was there. These people chose -- chose 9 not to put a map out. Chose not to put a map out of the 10 Senate. Chose not to put a map out of the House. 11 We are done? 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Finish up. 13 THE WITNESS: All I am saying is that they 14 chose to do that, okay, and so they knew -- and every one of 15 you guys knew -- you are all smart guys. That's why you are 16 there. You know what happens when you don't do your job. 17 Everyone knew it was going to go to the court. I understand 18 now that everybody said it was going to go to the court. It 19 went to the court. The court did what the court was 20 supposed to do. It worked in Florida. It was accepted, it 21 was fine. They did their job. The Supreme Court accepted 22 it and I say that it has already been done. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thank you, Mr. 24 Greene. 25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

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Page 469 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Bob Lydia. Bob 2 Lydia here? He is coming down. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please state your 4 name and who you represent for the record, please. 5 BOB LYDIA 6 Bob Lydia, President of Dallas NACCP. First Vice-President 7 of the Texas State Conference -- 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Are you 9 representing the Dallas NAACP? 10 THE WITNESS: Dallas NAACP. 11 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: May I check that? 12 Your form is not check. May I check it? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thank you. 15 THE WITNESS: First Vice-President of Texas 16 State Conference of NAACP, and of course we have personal 17 interest in this. First, I want to thank the Committee for 18 staying so long and for holding these hearings. One of the 19 things that puzzles me, you have two days to have these 20 hearings, and of course the NAACP statewide has been 21 represented at all of the hearings to make sure we have some 22 people there. But if you are going to gather this 23 information, and anytime it's my understanding we have a 24 hearing or not, you can correct me, that you would take this 25 information back and study it and then make a decision.

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Page 470 1 It looks to me that the decision has already 2 been made, and if you are going to meet on Monday when are 3 you guys going to be able to look at all this data and make 4 a determination as to what you really want to do. NAACP, 5 and I will read because we have a statement. The Texas 6 NAACP is endeavoring for the Texas NAACP to oppose efforts 7 to redistricting -- Congressional redistricting in the State 8 of Texas. The NAACP is a nonpartisan organization that 9 looks to advance the interests of those such as 10 African-Americans, Hispanics, and those who are required to 11 confront individual and unwarranted discrimination. In that 12 regard we look to work with individuals of both major 13 political parties in advancing these interests. NAACP, as 14 you well know is nonpartisan, but we look out for the 15 interest of those that are being disenfranchised. 16 However, we are aware that it has been 17 reported that one of the primary moves behind those efforts 18 is House Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas. Mr. DeLay has 19 received F on the NAACP congressional report card, and let 20 me repeat that. Mr. DeLay has received an F. We are 21 talking about low in numbers. I can also say that 22 90 percent of the Republicans receives F from the NAACP 23 report card. I don't have it with me. I think Mr. Richard 24 Raymond has it. If you go to the record you will find that 25 most of the Republicans receive F, and of course the

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Page 471 1 Democrats vote the way the NAACP would like for them to 2 vote, and most of the time that you receive B's, A's, and 3 very few C's. 4 In the past he has voted against numerous 5 important African-American issues including election reform 6 and other important election matters. This caused us to 7 raise questions regarding these efforts. During the last 8 round of legislation, the Texas state NAACP reported efforts 9 by Attorney General John Cornyn, Judge Mark Overstreet and 10 others to create a third African-American Congressional 11 District in the State of Texas. Both Attorney General 12 Cornyn and Judge Overstreet drew up a district that joined 13 both Fort Bend and Harris County to make up a district that 14 was potentially an African-American seat. However, the 15 court rejected that proposal. We were concerned with 16 proposed -- with proposals by those litigants who proposed 17 an additional African-American seat because they seemed to 18 violate a number of traditional redistricting principles in 19 drawing up this district. This is also the same problem we 20 have with the new district under the plan adopted this past 21 session by the Redistricting Committee. Our concern is that 22 when you put together districts in violation of traditional 23 redistricting principles, primarily when it is a minority 24 district, it is subject to challenge and we may lose. 25 We recall that after a redistricting effort

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Page 472 1 in 1991, a court case concerned that caused the 18th and 2 30th to be redrawn. In other words, there is a basis for 3 our concern in this matter. We also have a concern for any 4 proposal that would tend to make minorities of all one 5 party. Besides our being nonpartisan, we understand that 6 there is a white party and a minority party that could occur 7 with the latest proposal meaning the map we see on my left 8 could make that happen. A greater wedge will be drawn 9 between minorities and whites at a time when our nation 10 should be doing all things it can to become united to fight 11 serious outside challenges. 12 On the sidebar. Instead of holding this 13 hearing. Instead of being here all day and doing what you 14 are doing, if there is going to be a redistricting, if there 15 is going to be a special session, it should be on 16 educational issues. It should be on health care. It should 17 be about jobs, but it should not be about trying to redraw 18 some maps so you that can further yourselves. The process 19 that took place last session caused us to have a great 20 concern because we felt that a number of traditional 21 redistricting principles were violated. Districts were not 22 compact. Communities of interest were split while others 23 were separated as the 18th in Houston. Incumbency was 24 disregarded in many instances and the interests of minority 25 voters under the Voting Rights Act were compromised. We

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Page 473 1 believe that the traditional principals of redistricting 2 should be complied with including the following: A 3 compacted, integrated preservation of continuity political 4 subdivision. Preservation of communities of interest. 5 Preservation of core of prior districts. Protection of 6 incumbents and compliance with Section 2 of the Voting 7 Rights Act. The decision of the United States Supreme Court 8 seemed to make racial gerrymandering one of the biggest 9 areas of concern when these principals are applied. 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Lydia, can 11 you sort of summarize and wind up for us. 12 THE WITNESS: I have got two sentences. In 13 this regard we are very concerned with the previous plan of 14 the past legislation session, and for those of any plan that 15 would engage in a racial gerrymandering. African-American 16 votes in the plan were removed from the districts of the 17 following congressional districts that have generally 18 proposed NAACP issues: Edwards, Frost, Rodriquez and 19 Lampson. Likewise, African-American voters were placed in 20 districts of the following Congressional Districts that have 21 generally been hostile to the NAACP issues, and they are 22 Barton, Bonilla, Reyes, Hall, Smith and Stenholm has 23 received a D from the NAACP. This is our position on 24 redistricting. 25 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Lydia,

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Page 474 1 Mr. Isett has a question for you. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Would it be possible 3 for me to obtain a copy of your comments? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Thank you. When you 6 say that the concerns that the NAACP has about what happened 7 at the legislative session, are you saying what ultimately 8 the 1151C map, the one to your right, because of the result 9 of how the boundaries were ultimately drawn? 10 A. Well, we would prefer the map over here and not 11 the map over here. 12 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I understand that, but 13 you cited -- you said I think -- I thought you said several 14 times that you had concerns about what ensued in the '91 15 session? 16 THE WITNESS: We did. 17 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: My question would be 18 were your problems with because no congressional map came 19 out of the -- I'm sorry, out of the '01 or did you say '91? 20 THE WITNESS: I said '91, yes. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So the concerns that 22 you had, you have no concerns? 23 THE WITNESS: We felt that the map could have 24 been drawn better, but at the same time that the language 25 has been and there have been a lot of innuendos and a lot of

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Page 475 1 language about we will give you guys a African-American and 2 Hispanic a different -- I mean two seats, one for 3 African-Americans and one for the Hispanics, but we feel 4 like we cannot afford to do that because we have people who 5 vote the way we would like to see them vote. That's why we 6 look at the numbers and some of those that get A's and B's 7 and we know that if you add an additional -- we cannot 8 afford to get two seats and give up five A's and B's. 9 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: So when the courts 10 drew the map in '01, and one of the first things they did -- 11 the court case any way says that the first thing they did 12 was keep those minority majority districts intact and then 13 from there added the two new -- two new growth districts, 14 and one of them went from Houston to Williamson County. And 15 then they kept pretty much everything else the way they were 16 the best they could. Did that -- what was the NAACP's 17 position on that? 18 THE WITNESS: Gary Bledsoe, our State 19 Conference President, whose is an attorney, we drew our own 20 map and of course that map was not the map that was 21 accepted. There was a compromise and we said we will live 22 with this because we can live with this for the next ten 23 years. We just find it's hypocritical. It is not right to 24 after two years to decide you want to redraw the map. We 25 feel that every ten years which is what the Voting Rights

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Page 476 1 Act calls for, that is when the map should be redrawn. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: And then if I could 3 get a copy of your testimony from you. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Raymond. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You're right, I have 8 a copy of the NAACP legislative report card. I think it's 9 the most recent. Its' through last year. And I got to tell 10 you, your wrong about the Republicans having F's. You are 11 going to have to come up with a new letter, because these 12 scores are so low they don't deserve an F. You-all better 13 come up with another letter. F is too high. 14 THE WITNESS: Actually that was being kind. 15 I think the percentage was 12 to 15 percent. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You-all better get 17 ready for another march on Washington is all I got to say. 18 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: Mr. Chairman. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Yes. 20 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: I want to ask 21 Mr. Lydia a question, but I also after the question I would 22 like to make a statement. 23 Mr. Lydia, even though you are a nonpartisan 24 organization, are the majority of your members minority? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

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Page 477 1 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: And when you say that 2 Democrats normally vote the way you want them to vote, what 3 you mean by that is they normally vote in the interest of 4 the issues that relate to your membership; is that what you 5 mean? 6 THE WITNESS: That is true. We have a 7 Washington bureau and of course we look at issues that 8 affect African-American minorities. We look after people's 9 interests and we try to make sure that we lobby and get the 10 people to vote, and we vote for the interest of the people 11 who have been disenfranchised. 12 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: And you feel that 13 Democratic elected officials in most cases vote in the 14 interest of the issues representing those people? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 16 REPRESENTATIVE HODGE: And let me -- this is 17 my statement. You did rightly here today have thanked us 18 for sitting here doing a job that we went out to the 19 community and asked them to give us. Part of our 20 responsibility is to sit here and do the job that we are 21 doing because we asked for it. So I would like to take a 22 moment and place the thanks where the thanks really belong, 23 and that is to all of you interested voters who have come 24 here today. Many been sitting here since 7:30 this morning 25 to express your opinion. To ask your elected officials to

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Page 478 1 let you be heard. You deserve our thanks. Thank you, 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Tom Quintonias. 4 John Alford. John Alford here? He is on his way down. And 5 Tom was for redistricting. Did not testify. John Alford I 6 show you down against redistricting. Please state your 7 name. 8 JOHN ALFORD 9 John Alford. 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Who do you 11 represent for the record? 12 THE WITNESS: I am a Professor of Political 13 Science at Rice University. 14 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Can you pull that 15 up, or the microphone go off or what happened? 16 THE WITNESS: Hello. I will pull myself down 17 there. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Okay, that will 19 work. 20 THE WITNESS: I just want to -- I have a lot 21 of things I would like to say. As I said I am a professor 22 so my usual redistricting lecture is three hours and I have 23 15 of those. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Where are your a 25 professor and what do you teach?

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Page 479 1 THE WITNESS: I teach redistricting and 2 statistics at Rice University. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: At Rice? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please proceed. 6 THE WITNESS: National baseball college 7 champions. We don't get to do that very often at Rice. I 8 want to abbreviate this to just a couple of things that I 9 think are maybe the most useful after the large amount of 10 discussion that has gone on and so I think that I have 11 some -- 12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Now, Professor, 13 if you talk to college students every day, I know you can 14 talk louder than that. 15 THE WITNESS: You know, I am the one that 16 gets to set up in the front of the class. They are the ones 17 that get to sit for three hours. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Those college 19 students have to be a lot more intimidating than we are. 20 THE WITNESS: Rice University, you better 21 believe they are intimidating. 22 I want to address something about the 23 existing map. There has been a lot of discussion that the 24 existing map is a Democratic gerrymander. That it's 25 essentially the 1991 map. At least the people I have heard

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Page 480 1 saying that, I don't remember seeing when that map was being 2 drawn, so I don't think they are looking at the 1991 map and 3 looking at that map when they say that. First of all they 4 are two very different maps. That map is not, in fact, 5 based on the 1991 map. That map is based on a demonstration 6 map that was drawn in General Cornyn's office and presented 7 to a federal court where the presiding Judge was a 8 Republican appointee.? 9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Did you 10 participate or testify in the redrawing of that map? 11 THE WITNESS: I was the expert hired by then 12 General Cornyn. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: So you are 14 responsible for the map? 15 THE WITNESS: I am not responsible for the 16 map although if you read the Judge's opinion I am cited. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Your name was 18 mentioned. 19 THE WITNESS: And I was hired by General 20 Cornyn, a Republican, to assist in that effort and provided 21 assistance and this is not the map drawn by Democrats. It's 22 not the map that reflects the change from the '91 map. The 23 '91 map is not the basis of this map. The '91 map was not, 24 in fact, in place in 2000 which is the map that was used as 25 the starting point. If you look at that starting point map,

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Page 481 1 look at Dallas and Tarrant County, you will see that doesn't 2 look that map at all. This is not simply a minor 3 modification or what is referred to as a least change map. 4 There was a least change map put before the court. The 5 Judges chose not to use that map, so this is not a least 6 change version of the 1991 map. I know that because I was 7 there when the map was created. 8 Okay. The second point concerns the issue of 9 the mandate to redraw -- to redistrict. Apparently there is 10 some confusion about what the Constitution mandates that the 11 states do with regard to redistricting. As I said I teach a 12 course in redistricting. Several people have said that the 13 state is required to redistrict every ten years. That is 14 not true. 15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Professor, can 16 you tell the audience the difference between redistricting 17 and apportionment. I think that is part of the confusion. 18 THE WITNESS: It may be part of the 19 confusion. Apportionment is not done by the state 20 legislature. The apportionment is the decision on how many 21 seats go to each state, so the apportionment on the basis of 22 the census is what gave Texas 32 seats because Texas had 32 23 seats and only 30 districts. Texas then had to bring its 24 districts in line with apportionment. You are not required 25 to redistrict unless the existing plan is illegal. And one

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Page 482 1 example would be if the existing plan has 30 districts and 2 you now have 32 seats, you might now have to redistrict. You 3 might also have two of those seats elected at large. 4 Why do we typically think that we must 5 restrict in the one person one vote era, once the court had 6 made those decisions, redistricting essentially became 7 automatic for Congress because by definition Congressional 8 Districts were almost always, or essentially always illegal 9 once the new census figures were produced and sent to the 10 state legislature. That is the new census figures always 11 show that your existing districts no longer meet the 12 stringent one person one vote test. If they did meet that 13 test you would be under no requirement to redraw the 14 districts. The Congressional Districts in your state. You 15 are only required to do it because the existing plan is 16 illegal on the basis of the new census data. If you have a 17 school board for example, you are allowed considerable 18 leeway in drawing your districts. Ten percent top to bottom 19 deviations. The school districts often the new census data, 20 examine it, find out that they are all within deviation and 21 don't redraw their lines, so you are not required to do it 22 unless the existing plan is illegal. This plan, the 23 existing plan is not illegal. You are not required to 24 replace this plan any more than you have been required to 25 replace the plan in place in 2000.

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Page 483 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Is there a 2 difference between a duty and a requirement? 3 THE WITNESS: There may be some semantic 4 difference between a duty and a requirement. When people 5 say the Constitution of the United States requires the 6 legislature to redistrict, I assume they mean that it is a 7 requirement. That is simply not true. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Did the 9 legislature fulfill its Constitutional duty in 2001? 10 THE WITNESS: The legislature had a mandate 11 and a window of opportunity in which to remedy an illegal 12 plan. That is the existing 2000 plan was by definition 13 illegal. 14 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Because of 15 reapportionment? 16 THE WITNESS: Because reapportionment 17 violated one person one vote. You then have a duty to 18 redistrict in a timely fashion. It is that duty that the 19 Constitution and the courts are very cognizant of. That's 20 the reason that the courts did not take over this 21 redistricting process until Governor Perry indicated he 22 would not call a special session. At that point the duty -- 23 that is to timely redistrict -- had expired, and the court 24 was forced to then take over that process, because the 25 reason the court takes it over rather than just waiting for

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Page 484 1 the next session of the legislature is that restricting must 2 be done in a timely fashion, and timely means while the 3 census data is still ripe. 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: So is there a 5 difference between a duty to, and a responsibility to, and a 6 right to? Where are we in this Constitutional issue? 7 THE WITNESS: We are now getting closer. 8 There is a question -- I think a very interesting legal 9 question about whether there is a right to redistrict 10 legislatively. 11 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Oh, really? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, about whether there is a 13 right for the legislature to restrict when it is no longer 14 timely and when there is no longer an illegal plan in place. 15 You are now in the territory in which you are really in -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Professor, how many 17 times in the last decade did the legislature redraw House or 18 Senate lines -- in fact, over the last two decades, was it 19 once a decade? 20 THE WITNESS: If you are talking about 21 redrawing. Again we are talking -- 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Redistricting. 23 THE WITNESS: Right, redrawing lines. 24 Redrawing congressional lines in the face of an illegal 25 congressional plan, I have never seen that any where.

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Page 485 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I think there are 2 several times that we have redrawn congressional plans, but 3 you are right there was probably pending litigation or court 4 orders at that time, but in the House and Senate district 5 lines we have redrawn them quite often throughout the decade 6 without having a litigation or a court case pending. 7 THE WITNESS: Remember that the Texas 8 Constitution governs what you can do with regard to Texas 9 House and Senate. For example, that moves into the 10 legislative redistricting board as opposed to going 11 automatically to the court. That also by Constitutional 12 requirement must be done in a timely fashion. There is a 13 deadline for when the Legislative Redistricting Board must 14 act. There is a time constraint on it, both state 15 districting and national districting. 16 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Professor, I 17 apologize, I have probably used up too much of your time by 18 asking questions but you are a very interesting witness. 19 Can you tell us your thought on the map to your left? 20 THE WITNESS: That's the other point I wanted 21 to make. Again, a lot of this has already been said. This 22 map already provides adequate representation for 23 Republicans. There are Republican districts in this map, 24 and these guys are the majority in the State of Texas, and 25 that gives them the right to redraw the lines to advantage

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Page 486 1 their party. That's -- redistricting is an ugly business. 2 If you don't like it, change the Constitution, but you have 3 the right to make districts -- to draw districts that give 4 you the majority. That's why that map over there has 5 Republican districts in it. 6 That's a map that was drawn by Republican 7 officeholders. It was a compromise. In this case a 8 strategic compromise. There wasn't enough time to achieve a 9 better compromise in a legislative setting so the 10 legislature didn't act. Maybe the legislature in 2001 11 deserted its duty, however you want to characterize the 12 obligation of the legislature in 2001, they did not draw a 13 district. The courts drew districts with the assistance of 14 Republicans in the State of Texas, and you got a plan that 15 recognizes -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: But the court did 17 defer to the extent that it could to the old lines of '91. 18 I mean they did have to make changes, but to a large extent 19 I think the case -- any case they tried to retain the 20 court's redistricting, did they not? 21 THE WITNESS: Right. Once you punt the ball 22 to the other side, then there is some cost. You are 23 weighing these two things. Should we make the best 24 compromise we can make in the legislature or should we punt 25 it over to the courts? You are aware that what you get in

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Page 487 1 court will not be everything you would have gotten if you 2 controlled the legislature. That's a strategic decision 3 that was made at the time. I think it was probably the 4 right decision to make if you could work out something in 5 legislature. The Republicans got a good map in the court. 6 It's the map that Republicans are not thrilled about but 7 could live with. Everybody that talks about this map says, 8 you know, "I don't like that map," but believe me, I have a 9 lot of democratic friends who will never forgive me for 10 participating in the production of the that map because 11 Democrats don't like that map. That tells you something 12 about it. Republicans don't love that map, but that's a map 13 that provides districts in which Republicans with effort and 14 time will continue along the path they have continued for 15 the last 15 years which is, you know, I'm sorry, but 16 continue to grow as the dominant party in the State of Texas 17 and you will have 20 seats on that map. That's where you 18 are moving and that's an appropriate map. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Talk about 1180 20 for us. I'm sorry, I have used up too much of your time. I 21 am going to be quiet. 22 THE WITNESS: This map is being pushed as a 23 variety of things. One of them, the one the most 24 interesting to me, is that this will be a legislative map 25 while that's a court map. If you think that's a court map,

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Page 488 1 you wait until this gets into court. Again, I am not trying 2 to be humorous about this. I have spent 20 years dealing 3 with maps like this in court. I don't know who the legal 4 advice was on this map, but this map has as many exciting -- 5 I am fascinated by this map. It has as many interesting 6 legal issues as I think there are in America redistricting 7 today. It is potentially illegal on as many fronts as a map 8 can be illegal except one person, one vote. It is 9 potentially a partisan gerrymander, because under Vandemeer 10 if you exclude one party, then this map eliminates every 11 Anglo Democratic seat in the State of Texas. That is every 12 seat that it's legal to eliminate is eliminated in this map. 13 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: It is legal to 14 eliminate? 15 THE WITNESS: You can't legally eliminate the 16 minority seats. There are only minority seats in this map. 17 There are ten Democratic seats in this map and every one of 18 them is a majority minority district. That means under 19 the -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Does it create 21 additional minority districts? 22 THE WITNESS: Another myth about this map is 23 that it creates additional minority seats. It does not. 24 There are 12 majority minority seats in that map. There are 25 ten majority minority seats in this map. There is no

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Page 489 1 increase. There are seven Hispanic majority seats in that 2 map. There are seven Hispanic majority seats in this map. 3 There are three districts in this map that are affective 4 African-American seats. There are three in this map that 5 are potentially affective African-American seats. The new 6 black district is a very a questionable legality. The 7 district has at least three districts in it that raise at 8 least one Voting Rights Act or one Constitutional issue. 9 That is that raise issues of racial gerrymandering. Raise 10 issues about -- think about the 29th Congressional District. 11 If you look at the 29th Congressional District in this map, 12 what do we see? It's a district that now is more intensely 13 racial in its character. That is where it was a fairly -- 14 when the court drew it, it was drawn as a district that has 15 fairly smooth boundaries. In this map it has boundaries 16 that are much more irregular. That look much more like the 17 29th that was struck down by the court and that pay much 18 more attention to race. 19 Why is the 29th being drawn with too much 20 attention to race raises a Constitutional question. Second, 21 in doing that this map also manages to take the incumbent 22 repeatedly re-elected candidate of choice of Hispanics in 23 the 29th District and put him outside of the district. That 24 alone, putting him outside the district raises legal 25 questions about the map. The district itself then is too

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Page 490 1 race conscience. How you can manage to both violate the 2 requirement not to retrogress a district while paying too 3 much attention to race I think is a thing of beauty. I am 4 serious. There are things about this map that are 5 astonishing to people who work in redistricting year in and 6 year out. So there is no increase in minority 7 representation. There is a decrease. There is an 8 exclusion, to the extent that you can do it under the Voting 9 Rights Act, that completely excluded Democrats from the map. 10 You know, the Supreme Court has agreed to the 11 surprise of many people -- nobody more surprised than me -- 12 to take up the Pennsylvanian case, which means the Supreme 13 Court has said partisan re-districting is a live issue 14 again. This is a case that would be a beautiful companion 15 case to Pennsylvania because this is a partisan 16 gerrymandering. That is not a partisan gerrymander in the 17 since that the seats are drawn to the advantage of the 18 Democratic Party. The seats advantage go to the Republican 19 party. It's still not illegal. It's not a partisan 20 gerrymandering in a legal sense. This is potentially a 21 partisan gerrymandering in a very strict legal sense. So 22 it's got those legal problems. It faces all of the classic 23 voting rights problems. It faces potentially partisan 24 gerrymandering problems. And it would be the first -- to my 25 knowledge, the first map drawn by a legislature, not in a

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Page 491 1 timely fashion, to replace a legal congressional map. I 2 know of no other case where that has been done. That is 3 certain to generate a legal challenge. 4 So the question is can you get that map 5 through court without that map changing? My guess is I 6 don't think I have ever seen a map that was less likely to 7 survive without some legal change. When it gets changed, 8 what will it be? Will it be a legislative map or will it be 9 a court map? At that point like most of the maps that we 10 have seen in Texas, as soon as we move away from the actual 11 redistricting, we move into court maps, so this map is going 12 to be in court for a long time. It's going to raise some 13 issues that as a scholar I would love to see raised in 14 court. It's going to make a ton of money for people like me 15 who consult on redistricting. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: And you are 17 testifying against it. 18 THE WITNESS: I know. It pains me. I am 19 actually -- when I say I am against -- when I say I am 20 against, I tell you I am against what I think is an 21 effort -- I have a solution for you. That's my job. I am a 22 redistricting consultant and I consult for the Republicans 23 more than Democrats, although I consult for both parties. I 24 am just talking to Republican members of the Committee. I 25 have got two maps for you, okay? One map gives you 62

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Page 492 1 percent of the seats are Republican seats. Maybe not the 2 sweetest map in the world, but here is what is good about 3 it. You can pass it legislatively, so if people think you 4 did a legislative map, fine, you pass it. Even when you 5 pass a legislative map, there will be no real challenge 6 whether that was legal or not. They won't care. And I 7 guarantee you it will withstand court scrutiny. 8 I got another map for you that you might like 9 a little better. It will get you up to about 68 percent. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Have you got those 11 two maps available publicly? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. That map right 13 there. That map right there which you can now as a 14 Redistricting Committee -- people are like should you 15 redistrict or not? That's a Redistricting Committee. We 16 are redistricting. Special session was called to 17 redistrict. We are not trying to decide whether to 18 redistrict. We are redistricting. It's a Republican 19 responsibility because you run the legislature to do that 20 redistricting. There is a map that you can get -- the price 21 tag on that map is $1.7 million dollars. The price tag on 22 that map is about $17 million dollars, and it is still going 23 to be a court drawn map. 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Do you have a 25 third map? You said you had two.

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Page 493 1 THE WITNESS: Those are your two. 2 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: These are the 3 two. 4 THE WITNESS: And let me tell you if you want 5 to do something. 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Some of us might 7 not like either one of them real well. Is there something 8 in between? 9 THE WITNESS: You know, the one thing I will 10 say about this map is you hardly ever see a map that both 11 Democrats and Republicans have to hold their nose when they 12 walk in front of, but that's one of them. That map couldn't 13 be too unfair to the Republican party because it's a map the 14 Democrats don't like. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Professor, I have 16 let you take up about three times your time. We have to 17 move on. 18 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I have some 19 questions. 20 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Your final point 21 and we will go to questions. 22 THE WITNESS: Your question about a third map 23 is partly humorous and partly serious because you are a 24 Redistricting Committee, and one of the things you better 25 think about seriously is do you want to draw a plan? If you

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Page 494 1 have been involved in redistricting before you have some 2 idea just what a mountain to climb that is. These hearings 3 I think demonstrate, you know, in case you didn't remember, 4 how much you hated redistricting. We remind you of what 5 that's like. But to build a record and develop a new and 6 novel plan, and not one of these two plans, is a big job. 7 It is going to take -- nobody draws and properly vests 8 legally, publicly and politically a Congressional district 9 plan in 17 days. So if you are serious about drawing a 10 plan, then you better -- you really better think about what 11 you are going to do. Who you are going to hire to help you 12 to do it. How you are going to do it. I mean you got to 13 get that map out in front of the public. Not just draw it 14 on the basis of what have heard. 15 You really do have a third option. You are 16 never in the horns of a dilemma. You can always go between 17 them, but think seriously if you are going to do that, then 18 get to work real soon about putting together the team that 19 you need to do that and the schedule you need to do that, 20 because a new congressional map is a big hill to climb. 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Raymond for 22 questions. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's very 24 enlightening to listen to you, Professor. It may be 10:20 25 at night and we have been here all day but it is very, very

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Page 495 1 interesting for me to listen to you. 2 THE WITNESS: I thought I was having a 3 private conversation with Republicans and you listened in. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you for 5 letting me listen in. Two or three things I want to ask you 6 about. You have worked on this in a serious way for a long 7 time with both parties, and so politically speaking, you 8 know, I say stuff. It's stuff that I read. It's stuff that 9 I know. To the folks out here it starts sounding like just 10 two parties fighting with each other. Politics here 11 fighting with each other. Fundamentally -- you know, I went 12 to the University of Texas. It wasn't Rice, but when you 13 grow up in Benavides and you're going to the University of 14 Texas is like going to Rice, and I majored in government, 15 and I studied, and I have been involved now for a long time. 16 When I see this process that we brought this 17 up during the regular session that we didn't have any 18 hearings. I knew enough to know by gosh, we have got two 19 new Congressional Districts. Since the last census there 20 were a lot hearings. I am somewhat familiar with what 21 happened with the process that got us to that, you know, and 22 the input for example Cornyn had and so forth. So it's 23 political rhetoric from my colleagues saying, you know, 24 Republican Judges drew it. It's a protection incumbent 25 protection plan and all that stuff. But you get past all of

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Page 496 1 that and this is why for two or three months I kept telling 2 the Chairman of the Committee -- 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Do you have a 4 question, Mr. Raymond? 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I do and I am 6 getting to it. You had comments. You had comments too, all 7 right? 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please get to 9 your question. I tried to ask questions. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: When I kept asking 11 the Chairman of the Committee if you are going to do this, 12 do it right. Just like you are saying, that I may not agree 13 with it, but do it right, because I want to ask you, I am 14 very interested to get your thoughts on this. If you are 15 going to do redistricting like this after you have gone 16 through a long process to get to that one over there in a 17 timely fashion, then all you do are two hearings in Austin 18 on a Friday and Saturday in May, all right, and you are not 19 going to do anything else, and they wouldn't have done 20 anything else if we hadn't gone to Ardmore, okay? The only 21 reason we are sitting here today is because of that, you 22 realize that, don't you? 23 But even though that happened -- no, no. But 24 even though that happened, now they have quickly put 25 together six hearings by this House Committee divided into

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Page 497 1 three subcommittee, three today, three two days ago. I 2 guess I want the ask you because you made some reference to 3 it, and the Senate Committees are also having three or four 4 hearings very quickly in a span of like four days. Is that 5 really enough -- how is the courts, because it will go to 6 court if they pass something. How do they react to that 7 when they say was this really a meaningful process to go 8 back and tear up essentially what took a lot of Republican 9 input and a lot of process, a lot of legal wrangling, a lot 10 of drawing by Cornyn, a lot of you looking at it and the 11 Judges, all that, and then just tear it up two and-a-half 12 years later. Have seven days of hearings and draw it again. 13 I mean how do the courts look at that? How do you look at 14 that? What does that say for the product and its legality? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I am not a lawyer. 16 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I know. 17 THE WITNESS: You know my specialty in 18 restricting are details related to redistricting, some of 19 which are obviously heavily influenced by the law, although 20 sort of procedural redistricting is not an area that I have 21 any specialization in other than just having been involved 22 in redistricting. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You can't answer it 24 or don't want to? 25 THE WITNESS: I honestly think if you -- if

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Page 498 1 you are serious about producing a map and defending a map, 2 then if the map is a map that has legal liabilities -- 3 potential legal liabilities, then you would want to be very 4 careful about the process by which you vetted that map, so 5 if you are going to do something that might raise issues 6 with the Voting Rights Act as this map does, then sure, you 7 are going to be -- the Justice Department is going to look 8 at this very carefully, and so are a bunch of federal 9 courts. So this is again some misinformation I heard 10 earlier about Justice Department and what they will do with 11 a map like this or what does it means if Justice pre-cleared 12 the map Justice pre-clearing a map does not mean that the 13 map meets the Voting Rights Act. Justice will pre-clear as 14 they typically do with a letter which always contains ad 15 disclaimer at the bottom that says nothing in this 16 pre-clearance is meant to indicate that this is clean under 17 the Voting Rights Act. They pre-clear only with regard to 18 retrogression, and they specifically reserve the right to 19 sue you. To join in a lawsuit against you under Section 2 20 of the Voting Right Act, so getting it pre-cleared doesn't 21 mean that you have got the seal of approval from the Voting 22 Rights Act. It just means Justice can't figure out a way to 23 stop you this time, but they may -- you are open to a 24 lawsuit under Section 2, and they are open to joining in 25 take Section 2 lawsuit.

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Page 499 1 You have got to think about Section 5 and 2 Section 2, and not just about Section 5 pre-clearance in 3 that vetting process, both in Justice Department and in the 4 courts, they are very serious about public input, and they 5 are serious about it where it relates to their job which is 6 enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. If you have got a 7 plan that is either -- for example if you pass this plan 8 with very limited hearings, I don't see why you would -- 9 that would raise issues or be much of a concern at all. If 10 you pass this plan with limited hearings you are just -- you 11 are setting -- you are building a record. My dad used to 12 call it making your point the hard way. That's an old 13 gambling term, but if you are going to make a map like this 14 stand up in court you are going to have to have an excellent 15 record of public input. 16 What they are going to want to know is what 17 the basis is. All right, you remember that you have got to 18 have a compelling state interest to do things like drawing 19 new minority districts. You might think that's a great 20 policy idea. I thought it was a great policy idea from the 21 time I went work on this plan, and every plan that I pushed 22 with the Attorney General's office, and the Attorney General 23 office's final plan to the court before the court decided it 24 wasn't legal included two minority districts in the plan. 25 And the court said you just -- you haven't got an interest

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Page 500 1 that's compelling enough that a court can put those 2 districts in. Maybe a legislature can, but a Court can't. 3 The reason is that you have to demonstrate 4 compelling state interest, and you don't demonstrate it by 5 saying well, we thought this was a good thing to do. We 6 thought it was the right thing to do. You have got to have 7 the technical expert, and I am not saying this because I'm 8 an expert. Hire somebody else to do it. But you have got 9 to have a voluminous set of technical material that you can 10 point to. I can't tell you how many jurisdictions that have 11 gotten in trouble by saying we thought it was the right 12 thing to do so we passed this kind of proposal. You have 13 got to be able to document that you had a compelling state 14 interest, and that means a great deal of statistical 15 information that requires you to draw a new minority 16 district. Not that simply allows it to be drawn. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, you have heard 18 over and over as I have now for a month I guess that two 19 compelling reasons. Number one, that when you add up all 20 the votes cast for Congressional candidates around the state 21 Republicans get 57 percent and Democrats get whatever is 22 left I guess, but that they don't have 57 percent of the 23 Congressional Districts. That is they don't have -- that 57 24 percent of the Congressional Districts are not represented 25 by Republicans. I got to tell you, to me that is so

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Page 501 1 intellectually dumb that it doesn't make any sense to me, 2 and, you know, hell, I am not any where close to brilliant. 3 That's Grusendorf, you know, at least he thinks. But that's 4 the number one compelling reason, and I want to ask you if 5 you think that's a good one, and the second compelling 6 reason is because -- again, Mr. Grusendorf is convinced. I 7 believe he is actually wrong. It is our Constitutional duty 8 to do this. Those are the two compelling reasons. You have 9 heard them. It's in the paper everyday. That's what they 10 say. They get witnesses to say those are the two compelling 11 reasons. How good are they? 12 THE WITNESS: First of all I went -- by the 13 way, I went to U of H. I wanted to clarify that in case you 14 thought I went to Rice. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You teach at Rice. 16 I mean, you know. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, you got to be 18 smart to go to Rice. You want to be smart enough to teach 19 at Rice, you got to go to U of H. I can understand your 20 frustration about this 57 percent issue. I think it's 21 sufficiently frustrating for both sides that it should be 22 classified as a dishonest disagreement and taken off the 23 table completely. It simply doesn't matter. It simply 24 doesn't matter. It's pertinent to a technical question 25 which is this map a Democratic gerrymandering, and it could

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Page 502 1 be a Democratic gerrymanering. I could draw you a map real 2 quickly that would be much more effective Democratic 3 gerrymander, because a gerrymander is one in which you take 4 a set of votes, a proportion of votes, and generate seats 5 that are out of line with that by packing and cracking. So 6 you pack and crack. Now, is there packing in this map? 7 Yes, Democratic seats are more packed than Republicans. 8 That's why there's a Republican majority in this plan that's 9 greater than the average Republican share of the statewide 10 vote. That's why it's 62 percent of the seats instead of 55 11 or 56 percent, so it's relevant in that sense. Is it 12 relevant as -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: As a reason to take 14 it up again? 15 THE WITNESS: You can't draw these districts. 16 The majority -- the percentage you need to draw the 17 districts is you need to control the legislature, and 18 Republicans control the legislature in Texas. That gives 19 them the majority they need to create a district plan that 20 gives them the majority they want in the districts subject 21 to the constraints of the law. So it's a false issue to say 22 that Republicans are approaching this on the basis of that 23 56 percent vote even if it's Republicans saying that. They 24 are approaching that because they control the State of 25 Texas. And when you control the State of Georgia as the

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Page 503 1 Democrats do, you get to draw Democratic districts, and when 2 you control the State of Texas as Republicans do, you get to 3 draw Republican districts. 4 Q. That, I understand. I don't have any -- I mean I 5 totally understand that they have a majority and they want 6 to, you know, pass legislation because they have the votes 7 that guts public schools or whatever. They can do that 8 because they have a majority. All right, I understand that 9 part, but they are saying -- but they are using the votes 10 cast for Congressional seats as the reason for taking this 11 up, and that's what seems to me to make no sense at all in 12 terms of a legal reason to revisit this and tear up this 13 legal map over here. 14 THE WITNESS: I agree it is not related to a 15 legal reason, and I don't think it even needs to be put 16 forward as window dressing. I think the simplest expression 17 is that if you control the state, you get to control the 18 redistricting. Now, the fact is that Republicans didn't 19 control the state in 2001. That's the reason why they 20 didn't get to get the plan they wanted out of the 21 legislature. That's why it came out of the courts. If you 22 control the legislature in 2001, you could draw the plan. 23 If Republicans control the legislature in 2011, and I think 24 they will, then they will get to make the plan they want to 25 make. That's timely redistricting.

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Page 504 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: My point is it's 2 going to depend on population growth. There was some other 3 professor out of Houston the other day that was quoted as 4 saying they won't be able to do what they want to do next 5 time because the numbers just won't be there. If you 6 contend they will still have the majority to actually draw 7 the lines, then they have got to decide, you know, how many 8 minority seats, you know, where do we want to make all these 9 minority seats that are going to be there, because they are 10 going to be there. That's a different problem they got to 11 deal with I suppose. 12 THE WITNESS: We can differ about, you know, 13 the relative optimism of the two parties for the future, but 14 my point to the Republican Party is don't spend the next 15 four or five years tied up in court over a plan that isn't 16 going to get off the ground in this form. Take the one you 17 got and draw another one. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Professor, you 19 are one of the most interesting witnesses we have had all 20 day. We spent 40 minutes with you. We really do need to 21 move on. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, let me ask 23 one more, I wasn't quite through, and I will finish with 24 this. One of the things that I see it seems to me, it's a 25 cynical thing but I believe its what is going on is that

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Page 505 1 when you look at this map that they came up with, all right, 2 I don't know how long they worked on it. I know that 3 formally in terms of Committee was just two or three days. 4 How long they had done it before that I couldn't tell you, 5 but when you looked at it and you look at the imperfections, 6 the central thing about it that really bothers me, and you 7 referenced some of it, is that the most egregious violations 8 are minority seats. So they think well, we will get to 9 court and the Judges are going to say: Well, you know, 10 these minority seats that you are drawing up, they are just 11 so messed up we are going to change them and they probably 12 won't be minority seats anymore. But they get to say for 13 right now, hey, we are drawing up some new minority seats. 14 For example, the one where I live starts down in Mission, 15 Texas, goes up to the Rio Grande, Zapata, Laredo, and then 16 goes up south of San Antonio, up to Lockhart, two blocks 17 wide, then up to south Austin and east Travis County. Now 18 I'm not a scholar, but damn it, I know that ain't going to 19 hold up in court, but they say, well, that's a minority 20 opportunity district, so what I think their thinking is that 21 the seats that we want to knock off Edwards. We want to 22 knock off Stenholm. We think we are being smart. They -- 23 we being Republicans. We are being smart. We are making 24 those seats trying not to make violations, if you will. We 25 will make the violations with minorities so we can appease

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Page 506 1 them for now and say we are creating minority seats because 2 the federal judges will just wipe those out. We really 3 don't care what happens there, because we want all members 4 of Congress from Texas who are Democrats to be minorities, 5 so that way Democrats are just minorities and it's easier 6 for them to demagogue against us in, you know, all of these 7 things, but do you see where I am going? When I see them 8 like working on those white Anglo Republican districts, you 9 know, and cutting up minorities and just putting them in 10 there enough just to get the number they need, 650,000, but 11 not enough to where it matters in terms of minorities having 12 an input, but on the minority seats down where I live they 13 are just making all kinds of spaghetti and mess and they 14 really don't care what the courts do then, because the 15 courts will certainly move those lines around. They are 16 going to move them. Where I live I guarantee you that's not 17 going to -- 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Do you agree with 20 that? 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Finish up your 22 question. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I finished up the 24 question by saying do you agree with that, Mr. Chairman. 25 THE WITNESS: Certainly if you were cynical

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Page 507 1 you might believe that these districts were put in there 2 with the intention they would be taken out by the court and 3 so they would exist as baiting the plan -- 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Right. 5 THE WITNESS: -- and then just disappear. I 6 think that's -- I don't know who drew the map. I would 7 certainly -- nobody I would be involved with in drawing 8 would do something like that with a map. I would prefer to 9 give people the benefit of the doubt and say that this 10 reflects an enthusiasm for creating those districts without 11 paying enough attention to the law which is very specific 12 about how you draw those districts. 13 Now, the cynicism comes in here. When those 14 districts are struck down by the court -- when the districts 15 are struck down by the court what will -- how will 16 minorities look at that. They will look at that as saying 17 this was a cynical process, right? If you had been promised 18 a seat and it turns out there is no seat at the end of the 19 day, then you certainly can't help but think that the voters 20 will believe, as voters I think too often believe, that this 21 was the intent from the beginning, so I think in that sense 22 there is an element in that map which will feed cynicism 23 among voters. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, my question is 25 do you think they were more careful about drawing up the

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Page 508 1 white seats for the white Republicans than they were in 2 terms of legal challenges by the court being a problem. 3 That's my question. 4 THE WITNESS: It's not easy to draw an 5 illegal seat when you are drawing a seat for a majority 6 seat. There are very few constraints on drawing a seat that 7 would make a seat illegal. There is a mind field of 8 constraints when you are drawing minority seats, so it takes 9 a lot more time and lot more experience to draw illegal 10 minority districts, and even then with the best of 11 intentions some of those seats are found to be illegal. We 12 know that from the last round of redistricting, so it's 13 possible that even with the best of intentions that you can 14 be struck down, but certainly you want to be as careful as 15 possible that you don't create seats that have obviously 16 liabilities, so that when they are struck down people come 17 to believe that this was simply, in fact, offering things in 18 a plan that you knew would never survive the courts. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Isett, do you 20 have a question? 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Yes, I do. Thank you, 22 Mr. Chairman. 23 Mr. Alford, thank you for spending some time 24 with us. I am going to -- this isn't my question, but you 25 have read the court opinion of...

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Page 509 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Since you're named in 3 it I would assume you had. The reading through the opinion 4 there are many times it says that there are -- that it 5 couldn't get away from a democratic bias in this plan, and 6 you said I think several times that there was actually a 7 Republican bias in the plan, and at the end of Section 2 it 8 says, "It must be understood that any plan necessarily 9 begins with a Democratic bias due to preservation of the 10 majority minority districts, all of which contain a high 11 percentage of Democratic voters." 12 I would ask you to respond to that briefly if 13 you could? 14 THE WITNESS: There is a technical sense in 15 which we talk about bias in redistricting. When we talk 16 about what this plan does in terms of seats that's we are 17 talking about. The court there is using "bias" in a very 18 different and more colloquial sense. That there are 19 advantages to Democrats in the plan, this is true of any 20 plan drawn under the Voting Rights Act just to start with 21 What was the starting point of the court in drawing that 22 district. Did they start with Republican districts? They 23 did not. They started with existing Democratic districts 24 because a set of existing Democratic districts in the State 25 of Texas are protected under the Voting Rights Act.

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Page 510 1 Court has to start there and you have to 2 start there. So you have to begin by protecting Democrats. 3 You have no choice. You then move on to the issue of what 4 you do with the rest of the seats, and the court then moved 5 immediately to creating the two new seats to be Republican 6 seats. The areas were predominantly safe Republican areas, 7 so they created two Republican seats when they created those 8 two seats, but no plan can begin in a state that is subject 9 to the Voting Rights Act without considering the 10 pre-clearance will require that you first make sure you 11 don't retrogress on seats that are essentially Democratic 12 controlled seats. 13 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: In all the seats 14 subject to the Voting Rights Act, at the end of the day when 15 it's all said and done the Texas plan must and wouldn't meet 16 that requirement. It will be because it has to; is that a 17 fair statement? 18 THE WITNESS: Right, and if you begin -- if 19 you simply adopt this plan, I believe -- my belief is this 20 plan will come to eventually be a plan that meets the Voting 21 Rights Act, but it will not then be a legislatively drawn 22 plan. It will be a court drawn plan. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thank you, 24 Professor for your input. 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, just

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Page 511 1 one thing I want to ask about what Carl was talking about 2 here. You can clarify it. Both you, and Carl, and the 3 courts here, there is something very interesting going on 4 here. You automatically put two things together. If it's a 5 majority minority district, you, the courts, and Mr. Isett 6 by reading this court document refer to it as Democratic 7 seats. The fact is that if that majority minority district 8 wanted to elect a Republican, it could; is that not correct? 9 THE WITNESS: Henry Bonilla's district is, in 10 fact, a majority minority district. 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I live there. 12 THE WITNESS: It's protected under the Voting 13 Rights Act and elects a Republican. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So I think this is 15 one of the problems going on. He takes -- a lot of 16 Republicans take this here. They take this language that 17 the courts came up with. "It must be understood that any 18 plan necessarily begins with a Democratic bias," because the 19 court makes the assumption that if it is a majority minority 20 district, that it is a Democratic district. That's the way 21 I read this that they make the assumption, and you do I 22 think, that if it's a majority minority district, it's 23 automatically Democratic, so your statement a minute ago you 24 said you automatically start with protecting Democratic 25 seats, but you really shouldn't -- in my opinion should be

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Page 512 1 saying you start with the assumption that you have to 2 protect majority minority districts. That's what you should 3 be saying. That's what the court should be saying. You 4 shouldn't -- it's not fair to automatically say Democratic 5 bias because majority minority districts overwhelmingly are 6 Democrat or they elect Democrats. Am I making the point or 7 am I confusing things? 8 THE WITNESS: I am going to, you know, try to 9 answer any questions quickly as I am glossing over a few 10 things. We have had an abundant demonstration here of why 11 majority minority districts are overwhelmingly Democratic. 12 If they weren't overwhelmingly Democratic there would be 13 something going wrong. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: This is a legal 15 issue of majority minority. It's not Democratic Party. The 16 legal issue is majority minority districts. I live in a 17 majority minority district that is represented by a 18 Republican. 19 THE WITNESS: I think you are absolutely 20 right, and I think it points out two things that shouldn't 21 be ignored in this map. I mentioned one of them. That it 22 moves Gene Green out of the 29th Congressional District. 23 Gene Greene has repeatedly elected as the candidate of 24 choice in that district, and to move him out simply because 25 he happens not to be Hispanic flies in the face of

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Page 513 1 everything that the Voting Rights Act was about, and to 2 simultaneously move Henry Bonilla out of his district 3 because of the fact he is elected and is not particularly 4 popular with the Hispanics in his district. What I say 5 about Henry Bonilla's district, and I have said this 6 repeatedly, and it doesn't make me any friends with LULAC or 7 anybody else, but if you want Henry Bonilla out of that 8 district, vote him out of the district. You've got the 9 people to vote him out of the district. If you want the 10 Democrats out of those Republican districts in that plan, 11 vote them out of the districts. You got the voters. Don't 12 come back complaining and saying, oh, well, you know, we 13 should have got a Hispanic, not Gene Green or we have should 14 have got an Anglo. You have got -- the district is made up 15 under the Voting Rights Act to give the power to elect a 16 candidate of choice, and if they don't do it, so be it. 17 These districts are drawn to give the Republicans the power. 18 It's the voters that make those Republican districts, and if 19 they don't do it, so be it. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Just a side note 21 since he is my Congressman. Will the Judges look at this -- 22 this map right here, when you look at all of the Republican 23 incumbents, the Republican incumbent that is most likely to 24 be beaten in a Republican primary under this new map is the 25 only one that happens to be Hispanic. If they put Henry

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Page 514 1 Bonilla up in the Hill Country, I guarantee you -- which is 2 what they do here -- he is likely to lose in the Republican 3 primary no matter what any of you guys say, and will the 4 Judges look at that, the only one that they really mess with 5 that is like to lose in a primary is the only one that 6 happens to be minority, or does that not matter really? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, you could spin that story 8 a lot of different ways. The way I am look at this map they 9 are doing Henry a great big favor by getting him out of that 10 district while he is still -- 11 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: If he can get past 12 the Republican primary. Xavier Rodriguez couldn't. 13 THE WITNESS: Fine. Certainly has to 14 overcome -- 15 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thank you again, 16 Professor. Appreciate your time. 17 Daniel Cope. And then we have got Michael 18 Valentino and Michelle.. Are you Daniel? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. 20 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please state your 21 name and who you represent for the record, please? You're 22 testifying against redistricting? 23 DANIEL COPE 24 Yes, I am. My name is Daniel Cope. I don't represent 25 anyone other than myself. As I stated on the affirmation I

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Page 515 1 am a student. Mr. Chairman and members, in the battle over 2 this redistricting plan one of the most often cited 3 arguments in favor of redistricting is the fact that while 4 Texas has obvious Republican leanings, the Congressional 5 delegation had a Democratic majority. Recent election 6 numbers supports that many Republicans quote, deserve the 7 majority of those seats. I don't know of anyone that 8 deserves anything when it comes to election returns. This 9 logic is misguided at best I feel. 10 First, applying this logic to other groups reveals 11 several problems. Hispanics make up approximately a third 12 of the State's population but hold only six to seven 13 Congressional seats. Following this logic they should have 14 ten to 11. Women make up half the population of the State 15 of Texas as I think this idea was brought up earlier. One 16 could argue that they deserve to have 16 of the seats in 17 Congress using this same logic. Statisticians could compile 18 all sorts of data about political affiliations, race, 19 religion, hair color, shoe size, height, weight and fashion 20 sense to tell us who a perfect representative Congressman 21 would be. Fortunately, we only let statistics generated on 22 election day in the voting booth choose the representatives. 23 And while I am in favor of affirmative action, in general I 24 don't support any kind of quota based system and certainly 25 not one that requires the election of more Republicans to

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Page 516 1 Congress.

2 Second, the current map already favors Republicans in

3 62 percent of the districts as they are drawn. But the

4 percentage data is much higher than Republican electoral

5 strength in recent elections. I had a quote in here from

6 Professor Alford that I want to use. I guess I don't need

7 to say this again, but in the redistricting case in 2001 he

8 stated that, "The fact that the Republican congressional

9 candidates have only been able to win 15 congressional races

10 is a product of the campaigns that the Republican candidates

11 have run. The preponderance of Democratic officeholders is

12 not based on any political unfairness in the map." I just

13 wanted to say that. I hate to quote him while he just

14 spoke. But disliking the choices the voters make is simply

15 not a justification for redrawing the redistricting. As he

16 just said, I mean you have the votes. If the Republicans in

17 those districts want to elect a Republican, they can.

18 Voters have made the conscious choice in many instances to

19 send Republicans to Austin and Democrats to Washington.

20 Voters in every state make similar choices about their

21 representatives. South Dakota went heavily for Bush in

22 2000, but both of its Senators are Democrats. Louisiana,

23 which has never in its entire history elected a Republican

24 to the Senate, has a Republican majority in its House state

25 delegation and a Republican Governor. It's not this

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Page 517 1 Committee's or anyone else's place to second guess the

2 voters.

3 Third, many on the other side have made much of the fact

4 that 57 odd percent of Texans voted for Republican

5 congressional candidates. This they say means that an equal

6 percent of the Texas congressional delegation should be

7 Republican. Of course, this doesn't take into account the

8 fact that many safe Republican seats do not attract a

9 Democratic challenger with significant backing, so this

10 would then inflate the Republican overall statewide turn

11 out. For instance in the 3rd District where I live Sam

12 Johnson won with, you know, 70 odd percent of the vote or

13 something like that. And that at least partly has to do

14 with the fact that he didn't attract very strong opposition.

15 Thus this skews the overall statewide total.

16 Tom DeLay's district I am also sure didn't attract a

17 very competitive opponent. This is indeed why such a method

18 of redistricting is not used. If it were, redistricting

19 would happen every two years to reflect the new totals,

20 which would, of course, lead to chaos. That's because

21 Representatives would constantly be moving the district

22 around.

23 Another argument in favor of this redistricting plan is the

24 Democrats gerrymandered before and so the Republicans should

25 be able to do it now. Well, I say basically I mean we have

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Page 518 1 all done it, so let who has not gerrymandered before cast 2 the first stone. Actually, both sides in this debate are 3 essentially guilty. I ask the Committee to support a 4 plan -- and in all honesty I think this is what Texas should 5 do -- put forth by State Senator Jeff Wentworth. He is even 6 a Republican. To create a bipartisan, nonpartisan 7 Redistricting Commission. Something very similar to what -- 8 this is the type of method that is employed in Iowa, and I 9 think New Mexico or Arizona, I am not sure, but I know that 10 it has been done before. This is the source of most of the 11 competitive House races across the country. By having a 12 system like this where politics to the extent that it is 13 practicable be removed from redistricting. Only by taking 14 politics out of it can we ever hope to achieve a modicum of 15 fairness in this battle. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Cope, you are 17 looking at about a minute. 18 THE WITNESS: I am about to conclude. 19 (Witness proceeds to speak in Spanish.) 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Do you need us to 21 have a translator? 22 THE WITNESS: Si. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Do you know what 24 you are saying? Do you want her to translate? Okay, start 25 over so she can translate it. (witness speaks in Spanish.)

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Page 519 1 THE INTERPRETER: Because I don't want this 2 lady, the translator, to come here and waste her whole day 3 doing nothing, I will -- I do appreciate the Committee to 4 have listened to me and considered my idea. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: (Speaking Spanish.) 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Could you 9 interpret? 10 THE INTERPRETER: I have a question. Don't 11 leave. I have a question. Are you getting paid for the 12 whole day? 13 THE INTERPRETER: Actually, I am not getting 14 paired by the hour which I should have asked. 15 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I make 16 a motion we make sure that she gets paid by the hour. 17 THE INTERPRETER: And let it be on the 18 record. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Chair thanks you 20 very much. 21 THE WITNESS: Any questions not related to my 22 Spanish? No? Okay, thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Michele Valentino. 24 25 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Mr. Chair, do

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Page 520 1 you have a quorum? You only have three. Are you suggesting 2 the absence of a quorum because we have three. 3 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: If you have 4 three that's fine. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Raymond, Mr. 6 Isett and myself are on the subcommittee. None of the 7 members over on this side are on the subcommittee. They 8 were given courtesy by the Chair to sit today and ask 9 questions. Members of the subcommittee are Mr. Marchant, 10 Mr. Grusendorf, Mr. Isett and Mr. Raymond. 11 Michelle Valentino. Against changing the 12 map. 13 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Chairman? 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Isett. 15 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: This might be a good 16 point at this point -- it might be -- I believe my mike is 17 on. I believe that it's a good point to reiterate to those 18 that just the taking of public testimony don't require a 19 quorum but official action does; is that correct? 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That's correct. 21 That's my understanding. John Herbert. Against. Dr. Jeff 22 Cunningham. Did not testify. Against. Tony Herbert. Did 23 not testify. Against. Steve Williams. Did not testify. 24 Against. Tripp Davenport. For redistricting. Did not 25 testify. Romania Clark Willstruck. Against. Did not

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Page 521 1 testify. David Evans. Against. Did not testify. Mark 2 Core is for the redistricting process to take place. Did 3 not testify. Linda Wynn. Against. Did not testify. Lisa 4 Payne. Against. Robert Palmer against. I'm sorry, for. 5 In Dallas. Did not testify. John Tackberry is neutral. 6 Did not testify. Chris Unger. Against. Did not testify. 7 Dan Clayborn. Carrollton, Texas For. Did not testify. 8 George Nevelle. Against. Did not testify. Harold Rumsic 9 Ph.D, Bedford, Texas. For. Did not testify. Bonnie 10 Wells. For. Did not testify. Pat Everroad. For. Did not 11 testify. Rosa Overstien has asked that a letter be entered 12 into the record and did not testifying. Against. Alden 13 Birdsong. Against. Juan Blanco. Against.Paul. I'm sorry, 14 I can't pronounce it. J-A-Q-A. For redistricting. Did not 15 testify. Denise Smith. For redistricting. Did not 16 testify. Carroll Nash. Against. Did not testify. John 17 Dees. For. Does not wish to testify. Elizabeth Ferring. 18 Against. Does not want to testify. Richard Wheylan. You 19 are registering for the bill. 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would like to 22 testify? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 25 RICHARD WHEYLAN

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Page 522 1 I think we have seen the change in the state in the fact 2 that there has been 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Would you pull 4 that microphone down? 5 THE WITNESS: Can you here me now? 6 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: That's better. 7 THE WITNESS: I will try to reach for it. We 8 have the seen the change the state with 29 officeholders, 9 everyone a Republican. We have seen the taking of the 10 House. We have seen the taking of the Senate. And it just 11 quite frankly seems to me that we don't want to work with a 12 13 year old plan here and this seems to be a much better 13 idea. Thank you. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Sir, I appreciate 15 you sitting here today. I know that you are have been early 16 as everyone else has. We appreciate your testimony. 17 Tiffany Heartlink is for. Does not want to testify. Otis 18 Gray is against. Mr. Gray. Sir, do you have yours filled 19 out? 20 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I filled out 21 two today sir, and submitted them. Could you come down? We 22 have got it right here. 23 State your name for the record, please. I 24 know that we have got -- I am going through all of the ones 25 that brought the name up. Would you like I would be happy

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Page 523 1 to go through the audience. We will dig out the witness 2 affirmations. That's all the ones I am reading. Everyone 3 called up and said they would like to be heard, I am reading 4 through that list. That's the list I have been reading the 5 in the last ten minutes. 6 State your name the record, please. 7 B.J. WILLIAMS 8 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is B.J. Williams and I am 9 the President of the Garland branch of the NAACP. I have 10 completed two forms today. 11 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have them. We 12 retrieved them. Thank you. 13 THE WITNESS: I will say like -- tell you 14 Elizabeth Taylor told her fourth husband, I am not going to 15 keep you long because it's late. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. Mr. 17 Williams. 18 THE WITNESS: Let me first -- I want to -- 19 Mr. Lydia testified earlier. Let me just summarize the 20 position of the NAACP on this issue of redistricting before 21 state legislature. Let me summarize quickly, then I have 22 got a couple personal commentaries and then I am going home. 23 One, the position of the NAACP summarized: 24 African-Americans who have been able to afford coalitions 25 and elect persons of their choice should not be placed in

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Page 524 1 districts with voters who are hostile to them or who vote 2 consistently different from them, and Congress persons who 3 have consistently voted against the concerns of the NAACP. 4 Two: Communities of interest should be kept intact, and 5 communities of interest should be joined together whenever 6 possible in order to maximize the import of the Voting 7 Rights Act. Three: All minority districts comply with 8 traditional redistricting principles. Four: Minorities and 9 whites have not -- minorities and whites not be divided in 10 how the districts are divided. Five: The Voting Rights Act 11 must be adhered to and the 14th Amendment must be adhered to 12 in the light of sustaining the rights of the individual and 13 continue to enforce Reynolds vs. Simms and Baker vs. Carr, 14 among others. Six: Districts should not be drawn which 15 will now or in the future tend to pit African-Americans 16 against Hispanics or Mexican Americans. Seven: Since 17 Districts 18 and 30 were approved in order to constitute 18 districts protecting African-Americans under the Voting 19 Rights Act, any decisions that dilute African-American 20 voting strength thereunder would be illegal retrogression. 21 The Voting Rights Act says, A, No voting 22 qualification or prerequisite to voting standards, practice 23 or procedure shall be imposed or applied by any state or 24 political subdivision in a manner which results in a denial 25 or an abridgement of the rights of any citizens of the

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Page 525 1 United States to vote on the account of race or color are in 2 contravention of the guarantees set forth by Section 4(f)2 3 as set forth in subsection (b). 4 Is it is important to note that current plan 5 was drawn up by a bipartisan group of judges who states that 6 they were drawing up the districts so that they would -- 7 there would be 20 Republicans and 12 Democratic districts. 8 The Judges also rejected our plea, the NAACP, for a third 9 African-American district. This decision was affirmed by 10 the United States Supreme Court. That summarizes the 11 position of the NAACP. 12 Now, for a couple of personal notes. I have 13 heard a lot of -- I have been here today since 8:45, and I 14 have heard a lot of terms thrown around, liberal 15 conservatives, a lot of other terms, but other than with a 16 couple of speakers, I have heard the term Americans used 17 very seldom in testimony today. I consider myself as an 18 American. You need to know that this issue is very, very 19 divisive. Justice DeLay is justice denied. 20 We have been looking as a nation for the 21 weapons of mass destruction across the seas and we have not 22 found them. But let me suggest to you that what we are 23 dealing with tonight and what you will be dealing with in 24 the future weeks is one of those weapons of mass 25 destruction, for it appears that some of you want to create

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Page 526 1 shock and awe. A speaker said earlier that there are only 2 three good things happened to him in 1960's, so I only say 3 to Martin, Malcom, and Medgar Evers and Cesar Chavez, 4 forgive him for he knows not what does. 5 And finally, what does the law say? If we as 6 a nation accepted a decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in 7 the 2000 Presidential election, and we affirmed the Supreme 8 Court is the highest court in the land, why then can't we 9 accept a decision of the court on this issue. What's the 10 difference? For that court has nine justices and Clarence 11 Thomas. So I leave this with you. You have got an awesome 12 responsibility. I would not want to be in your shoes. But 13 this issue is a pressing issue. But is the most important 14 issue before you as legislators. Remember, you are elected 15 as servants, and I suggest to you that we have got more 16 critical issues that you should be dealing with. We talk 17 about weapons of mass destruction, deal with those. One is 18 record deficits. Teachers have to be paid. Students who 19 need to be taught. Children who need health care. The 20 elderly who need health care. Funding for our public 21 education. Those are issues that are before you. 22 And my final comment is there is such thing 23 as reaping and sewing. We would hope that this committee -- 24 this commission will go back with your fellow legislators 25 and do the right thing. Not because it's politically

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Page 527 1 correct to do, but because it is the right thing to do, and 2 I assure you that whatever action is taken on this issue by 3 the legislature, in the saying of my grandfather, it's 4 coming up again. Thank you. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Committee have any 6 questions? Thank you for your patience, sir. Otis Cromwell 7 Gray. Against. At this time since we have about 40 -- 8 looks like there are 40 or 50 people that are here. It may, 9 in order to facilitate everybody that's in the audience 10 getting to testify that hasn't already testified, I am going 11 to ask my clerk to ask you to just start here and go around 12 and we will just -- I can read through. There is probably 13 about another hundred of these that just brought their cards 14 up. 15 Ma'am, you said your name is in here. Could 16 you give that to us so we can pull them out of this and you 17 go ahead and come forward. There are three or 400 of them 18 up here. 19 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: My frustration 20 I gave my card three hours ago. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have been 22 working on that list ever since then. 23 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: I understand 24 that but now you are changing it all over again. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: This lady has asked

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Page 528 1 me repeatedly if she can testify. This gentleman has done 2 the same thing. I am going through as fast I can. One 3 witness took 45 minutes. 4 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Does it take 5 making noise to get up there because these three women I 6 didn't know before an hour ago have waited patiently since 7 8:30 this morning. 8 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: This is all 9 crazy. Start reading. Just read. Call the names. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, 11 wouldn't it be better if they were read into the record 12 anyway so we can know whether they are for or against. That 13 needs to be in record. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: She is going to make a 15 list. Anybody that wants to speak -- 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, ma'am. There 17 is a lady over here. We are going to pull out of the 18 several hundred we have left, we are going try to pull the 19 names of those that remain here. 20 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Why were these 21 hearings held without regard to the handicapped who cannot 22 hear what is going on. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We are speaking as 24 loudly as we can, ma'am. 25 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: There is not

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Page 529 1 any other speakers other than -- in the place except right 2 here and there, your mikes, but it's not going through the 3 deal. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am sorry, ma'am, 5 we are speaking as loudly as we know how to speak. 6 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Is this the 7 way you do it in Austin? 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We speak as loudly 9 as we can speak down there as well. 10 We have people come up saying they had signed 11 up at 8:30. We had between -- 12 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: It takes five 13 seconds to read a name. We could have people talking. Read 14 names. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am going to take 16 Nancy Lubertazzo. I am sorry I can't say it. I am going to 17 start plowing thought my list again. We are going to go to 18 through this list of people that are going up here and we 19 are going to try to get through everyone that wants to 20 testify. Nancy. 21 NANCY LUBERTAZZO 22 Nay name is Nancy Lubertazzo. I am from Allen, Texas. I 23 would like to thank the Chairman and the members for 24 allowing us to speak today. I would particularly like to 25 thank Mr. Marchant. I hope I am saying your name right.

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Page 530 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That's fine. 2 THE WITNESS: I do feel generally that you 3 were listening today. There were many times I saw that you 4 were engaged with folks with opposing points of view from 5 your own. You were paying attention and I appreciate that. 6 My voice a little course. These meetings today have been 7 very contentious. I don't intend to add to that, but I 8 would like to try to expand or expound on that a little bit. 9 Mr. Marchant, you have commented that you have never seen 10 meetings as raucous as these today. I want to remind you 11 that that is a large partisan issue as well. If you 12 remember the Florida recount, the Republicans in the hallway 13 who felt so disenfranchised they are screaming, and 14 pounding, and banging on the walls until that recount was 15 shut down, so it's not unique to Democrats although it might 16 seem uncomely or unseemly, it's what happens when people 17 feel so frustrated. I did not intend to become nearly as 18 emotional today as I did, but this is what happens when 19 people feel like they have no voice, and effectually it 20 really is what is happening. I think we need to take that 21 into consideration. I will read my testimony and then yield 22 to everyone else to wants to speak. 23 Honorable Chair, members, I would like to 24 take a moment of your time to register my opposition to the 25 proposed redistricting to the State of Texas. Texas has a

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Page 531 1 constitutional and fair map in place that was decided upon 2 through appropriate legal channels following the most recent 3 census of 2000. The Constitutionality of that map is not in 4 dispute here today. What is in dispute is the right of 5 individuals to one vote and to have that one vote counted. 6 I would like to share with you today the fact that I have 7 served as an election precinct judge in Collin County for 8 both the primary election and the primary runoff last year. 9 I serve as the alternate election judge for the general 10 election in November. 11 Having such involvement gives me the unique 12 opportunity to speak with voters and observe their actions 13 and opinions on election day as well as throughout the year 14 on issues related to voting. In the past two years voters 15 confidence as they entered polling locations has eroded 16 badly. That lack of confidence is shown by voters as they 17 make nervous jokes about hanging chads. You can see the 18 concern and the importance of their votes to them as they 19 continually check to make sure the ballot and the ballot 20 cards are lined up properly, holding their cards up to the 21 light to ensure the right holes are punched. 22 Further, there have been concerns here within 23 Texan and nationally about the accuracy of computerized 24 touch screen voting among a population of suspicious and 25 wary voters fearing tampering, or plain incompetence.

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Page 532 1 As you see the right to many the right to vote is the most 2 sacred right we have, and one that needs to be protected. 3 While we have a nation of wary voters fearing in some way 4 that their vote will either be invalidated or made void, we 5 are facing a new challenge to the rights of your citizens, 6 their voice, and their choice of leadership. Having their 7 vote taken away though redistricting. By rearranging voting 8 maps without a court order to do so, we in fact, take away 9 the ability of individual voters to have their vote counted, 10 or have their vote count by manipulating the likely outcome 11 against them. 12 In America the right to vote is a sacred act. 13 Ensuring that each vote counts is our sacred responsibility. 14 Becoming an elected representative should be won on merit. 15 It is the responsibility of the candidate to get to know the 16 concerns of the citizens represented in their voting 17 districts. By understanding the will of the voters, 18 politicians can win their confidence and their votes. By 19 redistricting outside of the ten year period, we manipulate 20 the rights of voters and the democratic groups to have their 21 choice and their preferences heard. It is morally wrong to 22 ensure the outcome of elections through political 23 manipulation. 24 I ask you to consider the unique and 25 privileged positions that we have Americans to exercise our

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Page 533 1 right to vote by not invalidating the votes of thousands of 2 Texans who will be denied fair representation through the 3 proposed redistricting. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Nancy, thank you 5 for your patience. Otis Gray. 6 Nancy, would you like to have that entered 7 into the record? Did you read it into the record? Okay, 8 thank you. Otis Gray. Mr. Estes. I think it's Greg Estes. 9 THE WITNESS: Gary. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, Gary. 11 Mr. Gray is against. Mr. Estes is for. 12 GARY ESTES 13 My name is Gary Estes. I live in Dallas, Texas, and first 14 of all it was my understanding, and it's still my 15 understanding, that what we are really talking about is 16 whether the legislature should be addressing the 17 redistricting at all. In that respect I wholeheartedly 18 believe that the legislature should be the one addressing 19 the redistricting issue. I believe this has been forced 20 upon us because of the actions of the Democratic 21 Representatives who left during the regular session, and I 22 absolutely believe that unless there are some political 23 consequences to that action, and those political 24 consequences means the expenditure of $1.7 million of our 25 dollars, that that opens up a Pandora's box of what is

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Page 534 1 rapidly happening in our nation.

2 If you will let me speak, see, I only have five minutes.

3 If you look at what has happened in our own state

4 legislature where a minority of the members have dictated

5 what the rest of the body will do. If you will look at what

6 is happening in the where a minority of

7 the members are dictating the way that the Senate is going

8 to conduct its business, you will see a disturbing -- a

9 disturbing not coincidence, a disturbing plan that is

10 evolving I belief, and that plan is a dictatorship of the

11 minority. It is where the minority party can take and force

12 its will on the rest of the state or the rest of the nation

13 in a extra democratic way.

14 I don't think that that can be allowed to

15 happen without repercussions, but as we look at the two

16 plans that are presented to us. As we listen to people who

17 have examined these plans and who are not partisan like the

18 professor from Rice, we have to look at the possibility that

19 the first plan presented my very well be the one that the

20 legislature should adopt. As such, we have some advantages

21 to staying with that plan, but I believe that the

22 legislature should make that decision, and in total and not

23 be made by 51 members that chose to go to Ardmore.

24 I personally can live with the first plan. I

25 like the idea that it will not create more litigation and

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Page 535 1 more cost over and above the cost of the special session. I 2 like that very, very much and I would urge -- as a 3 Republican I would urge the Republicans on this 4 sub-committee and the Republicans in the Committee to give 5 very thought to adopting either that plan or something 6 minorly tweaked with it. The dangers that have been pointed 7 out by experts and not by political people with political 8 agendas, but by the experts that have spoken here, men like 9 the professor from Rice, that the dangers that are 10 represented by this plan here may very well not be worth the 11 effort to be put into place and the cost that it would 12 entail, and the fact that we would still wind up with 13 something generated by the courts in the long run. 14 But I do believe that the legislature needs 15 to be doing this and it should not be forced upon us by a 16 minority element. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Gary, Mr. Raymond 18 has a question. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So do you think that 20 Governor Perry should have called the legislature in two 21 years ago to have done it in a timely fashion as the 22 professor mentioned? I know you are Republican, but the few 23 comments I just got I felt like you were a little more 24 balanced or a little more... 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, I think most Republicans

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Page 536 1 are a little more balanced than the Democrats give us credit 2 for. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, I changed my 4 mind. 5 THE WITNESS: The Republicans maybe that are 6 not elected to office, but see us Republicans don't think 7 the Democrats that are elected to office are very balance 8 either so I think that's a two-way street. 9 Governor -- I am not sure what the motivation 10 was two years ago for the Governor not to call that special 11 session. Not being privy to the way that that decision was 12 made, I hate to second guess it, but -- 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Well, the President 14 of the young conservatives of Tarrant County -- 15 THE WITNESS: Let me finish my answer. I 16 would not have been disappointed had he called a special 17 session. I think it may have been efficacious to forestall 18 some of acrimony that is going on here. 19 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What's that mean, 20 efficacious. I never heard that before. 21 THE WITNESS: You never heard efficacious? 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I'm sorry. 23 THE WITNESS: It means it works for me. It 24 means it will work. It will get the job done. The root 25 word is effective or effect. Effective is the --

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Page 537 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I know Carl knows 2 the word. 3 THE WITNESS: I am not sure why they said why 4 he didn't. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But you would have 6 if you had been Governor. 7 THE WITNESS: I may have. I would have 8 looked hard at doing it if I had been Governor. I can't say 9 what I would have done because obviously I don't wear that 10 hat, but I would have looked hard at that. I do think that 11 this should have been settled by the legislature two years 12 ago, but in lieu of that and that is not what happened, it 13 needs to be settled by the legislature now. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you 15 Mr. Gary... 16 THE WITNESS: Estes. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am getting brain 18 dead. Thank you for staying with us. Ms. Ruth Hise. 19 RUTH HISE 20 Well, at 69 you just about wore me down, but I am Ruth 21 Humprey-Hise and I am from Hunt County. I am President of 22 the Retirees of Local 967, which is E-Systems, Raytheon and 23 L-3. If it took all night I was going to stay. I noticed 24 Dan Flynn, my representative, stayed an hour, or less than 25 an hour.

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Page 538 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ma'am, I saw him 2 here at 8:30. I don't know what tame he left. 3 THE WITNESS: Pardon? 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I saw him about 5 8:30. I don't know what time he left. 6 THE WITNESS: I guess when we were waiting to 7 get in. But I did also see the speakers that should -- some 8 more should have been in here, out there just a minute ago 9 and I could hear. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I told you that we 11 are speaking as loudly as we can. 12 THE WITNESS: I'm saying you didn't have 13 enough speakers in the place. There is speakers right 14 outside standing where the group out there could hear. 15 There could have been the same things up here if this had 16 been planned right. Redistricting is unnecessary. Don't 17 listen to DeLay in Washington. We didn't get justice from 18 the courts in 2000. When the Republicans don't agree with 19 the courts they want to redistrict. 20 Keep the lines as they are today. Stop 21 wasting taxpayers money. Take care of some of our needs for 22 our children's education and all has been said today about 23 that that you have been cutting out of the budget. Remember 24 redistricting is based on the census, not the party that is 25 in power. And it is also to be done, as I understand from

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Page 539 1 this gentleman, in a timely manner. 2 I started in politics in the '40's. An uncle 3 was in the Texas Legislature from Paris. Worked for Sam 4 Rayburn in elections. Uncle was Dallas County Judge, the 5 44th District Judge. Been in politics with my grandmother 6 most of my life and I still don't know much about it, but I 7 am going to keep trying and keep working, and this will be 8 kind of like "Remember the Alamo" when I get back and start 9 working with my retirees on this redistricting, and I am 10 going to tell them to vote no the 13th of September on the 11 law reform. 12 Having said that, and the way we have been 13 done today. This place is unacceptable, un-accessible to 14 the handicapped. I believe the rest of everything has been 15 said that is to be said. And I think you have done what it 16 takes to get the grass roots back to work in Texas. I went 17 to Nacogdoches to a grass roots meeting a few month ago and 18 I agree with them. And if they can get a Governor in Kansas 19 that is a Democrat, then we can get rid of this and get 20 straightened out. This right here is totally unacceptable. 21 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Mr. Chairman? 22 THE WITNESS: Mr. Isett. 23 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Just for 24 clarification, what you said before you were pointing 25 towards the map 1180C. I just wanted to make sure that your

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Page 540 1 final comments was at the map 1180C. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I can't hear you. 3 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: I take it to mean you 4 pointed at the map to your left, this map over here, 1180C 5 as being unacceptable, and I just wanted to make sure that's 6 what got in the record was that you believe this map was 7 unacceptable. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. I didn't agree with that 9 one but I could live with it. 10 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Okay, you just pointed 11 and I wanted to make sure that got in the record that is 12 what is unacceptable. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ms. Lopez. 14 Against. 15 VELIA LOPEZ 16 Thank you. My name is Velia Lopez. I am Co-Chairman of the 17 Communities of Interest Redistricting Committee in Fort 18 Worth. The Communities of Interest Redistricting Committee 19 is and umbrella organization created by a cross section of 20 Hispanic organizations in Tarrant County to address 21 redistricting in various political jurisdictions. Some of 22 our members under our umbrella are the North Texas Unity 23 Council of LaRanza, an Hispanic education foundation. 24 Tarrant County Southwest Voters, The Chicano Luncheon 25 Committee, LULAC of Fort Worth, Hispanic Chamber of

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Page 541 1 Commerce, the GI Forum, the United Hispanic Council, the

2 Hispanic Summit, The Mexican-American Educational Committee.

3 Those are just a few.

4 From its inception in the year 2000, we have sought and

5 welcomed the participation of others regardless of

6 ethnicity. The Hispanic community is a growing presence in

7 Tarrant County numbering approximately 300,000 and making up

8 twenty percent of the population. Together with

9 African-Americans we constitute a third of Tarrant County.

10 The Communities of Interest Restricting Committee believes

11 that social economic factors, along with race and ethnicity

12 are the principle indicators of a community of interest.

13 Blue collar and lower income families are found

14 predominantly in the inner city. Yes, there are some areas

15 of affluence in the inner city. In Fort Worth these are

16 primarily to the west and southwest of downtown.

17 Housing values in the suburbs and neighboring bedroom

18 cities demonstrate that these communities have higher

19 numbers of white collar workers and professionals. Blue

20 collar individuals have different income levels and

21 educational background --

22 Did you miss that, Chairman?

23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, ma'am.

24 THE WITNESS: I wasn't sure. I could only

25 see the back of your head each I looked up. I wanted to

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Page 542 1 make sure you could hear me. 2 -- and educational backgrounds than do the 3 professional and affluent. The needs for Hispanics living 4 in the inner cities have more in common with blue collar 5 whites and blacks than would the affluent professionals 6 living in suburbia. You know that money is crucial in 7 winning elections. As a result the common man is at a 8 distinct disadvantage to those who have money. With few 9 exceptions, pairing blue collar communities with affluent 10 communities results in the money winning. 11 We are dismayed at the proposed congressional 12 redistricting. A court with two of the three Judges being 13 Republican drew Congressional Districts with the input of 14 Republican political consultants. These lines were drawn to 15 give Republicans a majority of Texas congressional 16 representatives. That is very clear. Now it seems that you 17 are not in favor of voters exercising their right to elect 18 the candidates of their choice. You're playing a dirty ball 19 game here now. Since you didn't hit the home runs when you 20 expected, you now want to move the fence lines, moving them 21 back in left field and bringing them up close in right 22 field. That's a dirty game. 23 The concept of one person, one vote is a 24 crucial element of democracy. It affirms the quality of all 25 individuals. To draw districts based on the preference of

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Page 543 1 voters, it's a distortion of democracy and is a violation of 2 the Voting Rights Act. Democracy is about enfranchising 3 all, not just certain voters. We urge you to set aside this 4 power grab that is not in the interest of blue collar 5 communities in Tarrant County or in the State of Texas. 6 John F Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Thurgood Marsahll, Malcom X, 7 Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez, they all fought for 8 equality. Civil rights, they marched, they got the job 9 done. They stood up so that we could all be counted. This 10 is an insult. This is an insult to all the good things they 11 did in their lives. Proceeding with this is just a slap in 12 their face. You need to think about what you are doing, 13 because you are trying to undo the good things in our 14 history. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I have had someone 16 ask me to put in the record a petition that is for 17 redistricting. It is Jill Melinger. She does not want to 18 give testimony but wants to enter this list and it's in 19 favor. Matthew Porter. 20 MATTHEW PORTER 21 Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee. Thank you very much 22 for your patience, and to the audience also, thank you for 23 yours. I may be the only non-native Texan that has appeared 24 here this evening, but as they say, I wasn't born here but I 25 got here as fast as I could. And the reason I am glad I am

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Page 544 1 here is because this is an abomination. I served honorably

2 in the United States Navy, and I can account for my entire

3 time, to defend the principles of equality. This is

4 tokenism. This map purports -- or is supposed to apparently

5 protect the rights of minorities. I am not sure how math

6 works when you create two or three really solid minority

7 districts and take away the representation from everybody

8 else. That's guaranteeing two seats on the back of the bus

9 and that's all it does. We are spending one and-a-half

10 million dollars on this farce, and its going to go to court,

11 and we are going to spend another $10 million in what will

12 be 2006 or 2007 when we are done.

13 There is something on the positive side though from the

14 Republicans, because if this thing gets thrown out of court

15 it will be because it was challenged by Democrats, and then

16 they can go back and they can say, well, you see we tried to

17 create a minority district for you and the Democrats just

18 didn't like it. That's a two edged sword. That is the

19 cheapest form of political play. I would urge you,

20 Mr. Chairman, to take the recommendation back that the

21 majority of the people that have spoken here tonight have

22 urged you either to drop the entire thing or at least hold

23 legitimate hearings rather than one day in a special

24 session. Thank you.

25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Going to read

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Page 545 1 through very quickly the names of the ones that I have here 2 that have put their names up here that are still in the 3 audience that still want to give their testimony. I will 4 run through real quick and come back. Mr. Ferguson, 5 Mr. Woolridge, Ms. Warwick, Mark Salditch, Harold Willis, 6 Nancy Wilson, James Hubeuer, Tom Blackwell, Alfredo 7 Castaneda, Boone Taylor, Kenneth Stretcher, Gordon Peterson, 8 Rachel Gray and Rennea Hicks. If there is some others in 9 the audience that have signed witness -- this gentleman 10 right here. 11 Yes, sir. 12 DENNIS FERGUSON 13 You ready Mr. Chairman? It's been a long day. 14 Mr. Chairman, members of the subcommittee, especially you 15 Mr. Raymond. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you put your 17 name in the record, first? 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. My name is Dennis 19 Ferguson. My Social Security number for my fellow veterans 20 in South Texas is 449-21-3840. There is nobody on this 21 Committee, there is no Republican leader in this state that 22 I fear that I would not give my Social Security number to. 23 I would like to probably come at this in 24 somewhat of a little bit of a different angle. I am going 25 to try to keep it as short as possible, because I'm tired

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Page 546 1 and I know you-all are. First of all, I want to say that I 2 am a fifth generation Texan. My family has been here for 3 170 years. There ain't been one war they haven't fought in. 4 At the age of 30 with a college degree I enlisted as an 5 enlisted man in the United States Navy and defended the 6 Constitution of the United States. My main concern about 7 all of this is that it's a violation of the United States 8 Constitution. It's a violation of the Texas State 9 Constitution. Now, I have talked to various many state 10 officials on this, but here is the long and short of it. 11 Both of the Constitutions are very clear that it's going to 12 be done every ten years. In the case of the Texas 13 Constitution, it says that it is going to be done after the 14 declaration or the publication of the decennial census. It 15 doesn't say when Tom DeLay wants it. It doesn't say when 16 the Republican get a majority. It doesn't say when the 17 Democrats get a majority. In fact, I challenge any of 18 you-all on that Committee to show me on either Constitution 19 where it says voter, Democrat or Republican. You won't find 20 the words. It's a mathematical formula for population. 21 There are a few things I would like to get 22 straightened out on the record. First of all, Republicans 23 in this state, any way you want to slice it or dice it, did 24 not get 56 percent of the voters of the State of Texas. 25 Now, I called the Texas Secretary of State and as of

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Page 547 1 November of 2002, there were a total of 12,563,459 certified 2 voters. Of that, there were 4,452,309 votes cast for 3 Governor. I didn't go to all of the different Congressional 4 Districts. Let's just agree to agree that probably the 5 governor's race is where you-all got the biggest margin, or 6 one of the biggest margins. Probably could have gone -- I 7 think Comptroller -- the State Comptroller I think actually 8 got more votes than any other Republican. I think the 9 Republicans were fighting it out which ones got the most, 10 but close enough for government work as they say. Of those 11 4,452,309 votes cast, Rick Perry got 2,632,591 votes, okay, 12 which is 58.9 percent of the votes cast. Unfortunately, 13 it's only 20.1 percent of the total certified voters in the 14 State of Texas. As I said, the Constitutions do not mention 15 voters, so let's look at population, and if you look at it 16 like that, from what I got off the census data says there 17 was 21,325,108 Texans as of the 2002 census, so if you take 18 the 2,632,591 votes cast for Rick Perry, it comes out to 19 10.6 percent of the people of Texas. 20 Another thing that I would like to kind of 21 get straightened out, and you-all are going to know more 22 about this story than I do because you-all have been in the 23 legislature, but I have made a lot of phone calls. I would 24 like first and foremost to kind of get one thing 25 straightened out, and that is to the 51 Democrats that went

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Page 548 1 to Ardmore, God bless you. You did the right thing. I 2 don't care what they say, that you will always be a hero to 3 me. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Ferguson, you 5 have got about -- you have used about four minutes. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. The main point I guess I 7 would like to point out is I called around and I found out 8 in the 77th Legislature when you-all were supposed to do 9 this, that at least on the State House and Senate districts 10 that was blocked by a person by the name of Susan Weddington 11 who is the Chairman of the Texas Republican Party. That she 12 sent out e-mails and blocked the Wentworth Bill coming out 13 of the Senate. 14 Now, the last thing that I will leave you-all 15 with because I appreciate you-all even allowing me this much 16 time, and I do have everything put in the record, you-all 17 aren't elected. You-all are not elected to represent 18 Democrats or Republicans. You were elected to represent the 19 people of the State of Texas. The sovereign State of Texas. 20 Mr. Raymond you said you grew up I believe in what was it? 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Benavides. 22 THE WITNESS: Benavides. Yeah, my mom is 23 from Louis de Blanco. 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: She's from a smaller 25 town than I am.

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Page 549 1 THE WITNESS: And all I can say to you is 2 this. You had made the comment earlier today, "Well, you 3 know, coming up we are going to get..." I am going to work 4 with you to get rid of as many Republicans as you would 5 like. I will. Think about something and I will tell you 6 this. If you try to redistrict I will be up here and I will 7 be fighting you just as hard as I would any other 8 Republican. 9 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Good. 10 THE WITNESS: Because it is a fundamental 11 Constitutional and the basis of our legal rights. You don't 12 go out and change the ball game in the middle of the game. 13 Thank you. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Thank you, sir. 15 Mr. Chairman, let me submit some more letters 16 to you. People who had to leave. For the record here is a 17 press release from Texas LULAC in opposition of taking up 18 restricting. Here is a letter from Delia Ayaga, Plano East 19 Senior High and LULAC North Texas Youth Director, and Anna 20 Rodriguez, Texas LULAC Treasurer, and Shannon 21 Rodriguez-Anderson, all opposed to taking up redistricting. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: There are probably 24 witness affirmation forms that you could match them up. 25 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We will try to do

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Page 550 1 that. Cornell Woolridge. 2 CORNELL WOOLRIDGE 3 First, I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You are against? 5 THE WITNESS: I am against, I apologize. I 6 want to first thank you, Mr. Chairman, and all of the 7 distinguished Committee for allowing me this time to speak 8 Unfortunately, there aren't many people here left, but I 9 commend all of you who have stayed since from 7:30, or 8:30, 10 or however long. You are the people that really care about 11 what is going on, so thank you. 12 Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of folks my 13 age here, and I am here to speak not only for people my age, 14 although I will be 25 five in July. But I am also here 15 because I am on the Board of the Arlington NAACP and so I 16 speak not only for the Arlington NAACP and people my age, 17 but I have been a citizen of North Texas for of my life. 18 And simply put, the reason we are here is because this map 19 is unjust, and there are plenty of folks my age that don't 20 get involved in this process because they don't think that 21 they count. This map will only continue that and make that 22 point brought home even further if this goes through. Now I 23 think it's very unfortunate that folks my age don't vote as 24 much as they should and aren't as active, and I am here 25 because I want to do more to change that, but I am also here

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Page 551 1 because I want to stop that, because I know that won't do 2 anything to change it. 3 And I really want to submit that the only 4 reason this map is being brought to us is because as it has 5 been said in many different forms and fashions, that 6 Republicans want to assure themselves more seats because 7 they think they are entitled to them, and I would submit to 8 you that you are entitled to nothing. You are entitled -- 9 you are entitled to the seat that you are elected to and you 10 are entitled to represent those folks who elect you, but 11 that's it. That's the only thing you are entitled to. 12 By trying to pack all the minority voters 13 into the 30th and then trying to crack the minority voters 14 in the 24th, you are only I think bringing your own downfall 15 as can see from all of the folks here and that have been 16 here all day and what I belive is now getting into the 12th, 17 or 13th, or 14th hour and maybe even longer. I think this 18 map right here has -- should have shown you more then 19 anything else that you are stepping into a beehive, and that 20 beehive is only going to get more and more excited as you 21 continue with this process. 22 Now, I am definitely a Democrat but I don't 23 dislike Republicans. Yes, I disagree with them quite often, 24 but I have friends that are Republicans, and I get along 25 with them and some of them are my best friends. And I think

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Page 552 1 I can get along with you, but not if you do this. And I 2 think there is a lot of folks, Republican and Democrat, that 3 won't get along with you if you do this. And as far as 4 those who have I think mentioned over and over again about 5 the 51 who, you know, left and went to Ardmore, they talk 6 about not doing their job. They left because it was this 7 map that was going to get through. Someone -- I believe the 8 last man that was here that was for redistricting was 9 talking about that map, but that map was not going to be 10 voted on. It's going to be this one, and I think they did 11 everything they had to do to make sure that didn't happen, 12 so I want to thank you-all very much for that. Now, 13 specifically -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You have used about 15 four minutes. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you, very much. 17 Specifically as far as Arlington goes, the major minority 18 groups in the last ten years have grown by at least 19 800 percent and they are going to continue to grow, and I 20 believe that right now there are people that are Texas 21 Congressional Republicans like and Kay Granger 22 who each scored 24.5 on the NAACP voting record, and with 23 numbers like that I don't think those major minority groups 24 will be well represented by anybody like that. 25 The last thing I want to say, I am not a

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Page 553 1 politician. I hope -- I have aspirations maybe one day to 2 be up there where you-all are right now, but I'm not, but 3 one thing I do know is right from wrong, and right is 4 representation for everyone, not just voters. Wrong is 5 packing the 30th and cracking the 24th. Right is minority 6 opportunity districts. Wrong is disenfranchising the 7 disenfranchised. Right is redrawing lines every ten years to 8 reflect population changes. Wrong is redrawing lines for 9 political preference. I am here to say right here, and I 10 hope it's heard here and outside the walls throughout Texas 11 and throughout this country, that this is unjust. It's not 12 right. It cannot, must not, and God as my witness, it will 13 not stand. Thank you. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Grusendorf, if 15 you will chair the meeting for a while while I take a 16 bathroom break. 17 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Karen Warwick. 18 While she is coming up there is about 16 more witness forms 19 that I have here plus whatever else the clerk may have. 20 Please state your name and who you represent for the record. 21 KAREN WARWICK 22 My name is Karen Warwick. I am from Denton, Texas and I am 23 representing myself, and I am against redistricting. Okay, 24 I have brought some materials that will expedite my 25 presentation considerably if I may submit them to the

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Page 554 1 members of the Committee at this time. 2 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Be happy to put 3 them into the record. 4 THE WITNESS: I also teach at the college 5 level. My discipline is economics. I am not professor 6 because I do not have a Ph.D in this material. I have a 7 Masters Degree. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Where do you 9 teach. 10 THE WITNESS: I teach at North Central Texas 11 College. I also taught ten years at Texas Woman's 12 University. I believe you, sir, were in the legislature in 13 1990 when we redistricted before; is that correct? And 14 possibly the Chair of this Committee, Mr. Marchant. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I believe we both 16 served on the Redistricting Committee. 17 THE WITNESS: And I was there as well as an 18 employee in Governor Ann Richards office, and I wanted to 19 let you know I could not believe that you-all had taken this 20 effort on again and wanted to ride the broncing horses or 21 the bucking bulls in this rodeo. I was observing it from a 22 very cheap seat in the arena, but I can assure you that the 23 stench from the arena was quite foul for many miles from the 24 Capitol. Round one you fight one party against another. 25 Round two you fight within your own party against your best

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Page 555 1 friends, but I would like to also get to the economics of 2 the task at hand, and I like to do these on a grading effort 3 as well. And first -- my first question to you would be 4 that you ask yourself in your own souls what qualifies you 5 to get the map and to draw on the map, because it is a very 6 serious issue in terms of the enfranchising the Texas voters 7 and it affects the life of everyone in the State of Texas. 8 And I would say you either get A's or F's, or we can measure 9 your accomplishments between the parties in terms of assets 10 or liabilities that you have made in terms of the State of 11 Texas that you have had control. 12 I would ask you first to look at the money 13 that you are going to spend in this pursuit because you can 14 do one thing with money, but you give up the other 15 possibilities that you could spend with that same money. In 16 terms of public education which is one of the central 17 responsibilities to you as legislators for running Texas, I 18 would ask you have the drop out rates since President Bush's 19 tenure as Governor and now Perry, have they gone up, have 20 they gone down? Are the test grades higher or lower, and 21 the answers to many of these questions are in this material 22 I have given you, both for national and for the State of 23 Texas. Are teachers paid more or less in Texas? Are our 24 tests better or less in their worthiness than the Iowa Test 25 of Basic Skills. You can give yourself a little bonus in

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Page 556 1 your quagmire of your budget by canceling until they rectify 2 the new tests from TEA, eighty-six additional million 3 dollars by just letting them get that test refined before 4 you administer it. 5 Now, you have given the authority to the 6 regents of the state schools of Texas as ability to set 7 their own tuition rates which will make the flagships of 8 this university unavailable to the poor and middle class 9 probably forever, much less the minorities of this state. 10 They can take that map and redraw with the very next 11 election because they are, in fact, over 50 percent and 12 growing more every day in terms of the black community, and 13 the brown community, in addition to the Democratic voters of 14 this state, and they can do it any day they choose, and so, 15 you know, 24 hours is a lifetime in politics. 16 I would also ask you what has been done with 17 regard to employment in this State of Texas since you have 18 been at the helm of the reins of either the elephant or the 19 donkey and you think you can ride this rodeo through 20 redistricting. How many jobs has your party brought to the 21 State of Texas? How much retraining and training have you 22 done for the unemployed in the State of Texas? And Ann 23 Richards neighborhood, who I have known since she was not 24 even twenty years old, which makes me feel like a dinosaur 25 is twice to three times the rate we here on TV, as it always

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Page 557 1 is for any every minority in the State of Texas and along 2 the Valley. It's always three to four times for black 3 teenagers between the ages of 15 and 25. The number you 4 hear of unemployed in this country is for the white boys 5 over twenty five and never forget it. Okay, and what have 6 you done with the unemployment retraining dollars that flow 7 through the Department of Labor into the Texas Department of 8 Commerce through this state -- 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Ms. Warwick -- 10 THE WITNESS: -- since 1994? 11 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: -- can you sum it 12 up for us? 13 THE WITNESS: You have wasted money. You 14 have not spent money on what it needs to be spent on. I am 15 sure you are sitting on $300 millions dollars, and I would 16 have moved that Commerce Department into Governor Perry's 17 office too if I had actually been there. I would have leant 18 the money rather than not leant it in Texas Department of 19 Housing. I know where the bodies are buried. I have been 20 on this horseback since about 30 years from now, and you may 21 not want to hear it, but you people haven't been able to 22 build a road we can drive on since I have lived here and I 23 am a native Texan. The first stroke of George Bush's pen 24 was to take out the clean air and now are going to lose the 25 federal dollars for that.

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Page 558 1 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Thank you, Ms. 2 Warwick. 3 THE WITNESS: You're welcome, sir. And you 4 are not qualified to get the colors and draw on the maps. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mark, and I am 6 having trouble reading this. S-A-L-D-I -- 7 THE WITNESS: T-C-H. 8 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Couldn't read the 9 next letters. 10 THE WITNESS: That's okay. 11 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Please give us 12 your name and who you represent for the record. 13 MARK SALDITCH 14 My name is Mark Salditch and I represent myself. I thank 15 everybody here on the Commission for taking the time to hear 16 us today. I have been here since 8:00 o'clock this morning. 17 Early problems they wouldn't let us carry signs outside. 18 They said we had to stand in a free speech zone. I thought 19 America was a free speech zone. I also want to particularly 20 thank the Republican members of this whatever it is, 21 Commission, because if Tom DeLay was running this it would 22 cost us $56,500 to speak to you. I don't know if you are 23 aware but there is this little electric company in Kansas 24 called Weststar. They were involved in one of those awful 25 ENRON type deals where they stole a bunch of money. It was

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Page 559 1 only a couple of billion dollars. It doesn't get national 2 news, but this Weststar case internal company e-mails 3 revealed that to get a seat at the table with Mr. DeLay it 4 cost $56,500. So thank you. I appreciate Mr. Marchant that 5 it just cost me my time to speak to you. My time today. 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm sorry, I had to 7 go to the bathroom. 8 THE WITNESS: I am just busting your chops 9 now, okay? But I have a question. I have three questions. 10 First one is for you, Mr. Marchant. I spent years working 11 in the Richardson telecom corridor. Survived eight rounds 12 of layoffs. Didn't survive the ninth round. So wonder what 13 are your priorities? I mean how many jobs are going to be 14 created through re-districting, Mr. Marchant. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I don't have the 16 answer for you, sir. 17 THE WITNESS: The answer is none. 18 Mr. Grusendorf, let me ask you how many people -- I have 19 lost my train of thought. Three questions. First was -- 20 okay, second question is what have we done for school 21 financing this term? Has that been accomplished. 22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Sir, we are here 23 to get your testimony relative to redistricting. 24 THE WITNESS: I am just trying to find out 25 what are the priorities facing our country?

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Page 560 1 And Mr. Isett, did you read last week that 2 the Department on Homeland Security said that Al Queda is 3 going to blowup an oil refinery over the 4th of July? 4 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Sir, do you have 5 testimony to give us on restricting? 6 THE WITNESS: What I am saying is that the 7 priorities are all wrong, okay? This is not going to make 8 us any safer. Its's not going to recrate any jobs. It's 9 not going to get our kids educated. This a masturbatory 10 exercise and I am very disappointed at you guys. I have 11 just waited around 14 hours to say that. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We appreciate you 13 waiting that long and sharing your opinion. 14 Harold Willis, and then I have Nancy Wilson. 15 HAROLD WILLIS 16 Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, my name is Harold R. 17 Willis. I reside in Grand Prairie in the 24th District in 18 Congressman Martin Frost's, the senior member of the 19 Congressional delegation from the State of Texas. I want to 20 keep it that way. I don't want a freshman Republican to 21 take over that slot. I am very happy with Congressman 22 Frost. I like him. I want it to go into the record that I 23 have been here since 8:15 on Saturday morning. It's now 24 12:05 on Sunday morning. I would like for Governor Perry to 25 know that. I would like for the Chairman of this Committee,

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Page 561 1 Mr. Crabb I believe according to his web site, he is a

2 Methodist Minister, real Christian of him to do this to his

3 fellow Texans. I want that put into the record, please. I

4 have been in health care since I was a senior at Grand

5 Prairie High. I am a graduate of UT Southwestern and a

6 gerontologist. I work with old folks. By the way, the

7 gerontology program at UT Southwestern has closed. Who

8 wants to work with the elderly in Texas?

9 has closed their Masters program in gerontology. UTMB in

10 Galveston has closed their gerontology program. When we get

11 through tonight there is a nursing home just two blocks away

12 from here on Record Crossing, a four story structure that

13 basically is a fire trap. Thirty percent of the nursing

14 homes in the State of Texas are 50 years and older, and in

15 just the next few years 50 percent of the nursing homes in

16 the State of Texas, 50 years and older and it's getting

17 worse. Everyone I have gone to school with has gotten out

18 of the business because it's that bad in Texas, and this

19 is -- I understand why we are so frustrated, those of us who

20 deal with these types of problems, and we are doing this.

21 We can't even take care of our elderly in this state.

22 Adult protective services, child protective services,

23 we rank 50th out of the 50 states. We just had a

24 legislative session and now we are coming up on this.

25 University of Texas Southwestern has four Nobel Prize

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Page 562 1 winners. No other medical school in the United States or 2 the world has four Nobel Prize winners, and yet at this 3 university these scientists cannot do stem cell research. 4 They have restrictions put on them by Carl Rowe because Carl 5 Rowe wants the pro life vote. I guarantee you if you went to 6 Mrs. Nancy Reagan, President Ronald Reagan, the great 7 communicator, it's kind of sad because today the man is in a 8 diaper. The man that was known as the great communicator, 9 defecating and urinating on himself because of the horrible 10 effects of Alzheimer's. What a horrible event. One lady 11 told me who gets the better care in Texas, death row inmates 12 or nursing home patient? It's the death row inmate. What I 13 want to get my message to you is this past Thursday night I 14 would like this committee to see what happened on C-span 15 about this time of the night on Medicare prescription drug 16 bill vote. When Tom DeLay was speaking on the floor he was 17 booed. He was hollered at. Representative Billy -- I call 18 him Billy Tarzan, Billy Tazzan from Louisiana had to step in 19 and try to defend Mr. DeLay, so when the man on the floor of 20 the House not only are people here in Dallas but in 21 Washington D.C. are ripping the man up. He doesn't have the 22 credibility, and please understand that with the 23 overwhelming problems here in the State of Texas. Hear it 24 is late at night. I know you are tired. I appreciate the 25 work you have done. I appreciate the staff, but take this

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Page 563 1 directly to the people above you that this is no way to run 2 a country. I can tell you, folks, with the number of 3 soldiers we are losing in Iraq, I heard on NPR radio, the 4 budget crisis many state government are doing ENRON type 5 accounting to balance their books to balance their books. I 6 remember in 1960 and Nixon has his silent majority. I 7 worked with a silent majority, the graying of America. The 8 graying of Texas. And these women, my husband votes 9 Republican but I go along with him, but when I get in there 10 I am voting democratic because I have to deal with his mom 11 and dad. I see the Medicare cuts. The Medicaid cuts. I 12 have to take care of our older relatives. How frustrating. 13 We are running out of money. Where are we going to put 14 them? What are we going to do? These are part of the 15 complex issues we face in this state and one quick 16 recommendation. Take that map, cut it up into sections and 17 sell it as souvenir toilet paper down in the Capital gift 18 shop at the Capitol to raise money. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 20 NANCY WILSON 21 Good evening. This has been a an interesting day. Good 22 morning. I am speaking for the League of Women Voters of 23 Texas and my name is Nancy Wilson. I chair the 24 Redistricting Committee for the League and I live in 25 Richardson. On behalf of the members statewide, the League

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Page 564 1 appreciates the opportunity to speak to you today.

2 On the issue of redistricting, this is a process that

3 affects the citizens right to vote. The League is a

4 nonpartisan political organization. We concern ourselves

5 with trying ot influence public policies throughout the

6 state. The lines for the current Texas Congressional

7 Districts were drawn by the court and they have withstood

8 legal challenges. To attempt to change them at this point

9 would be a misuse of resources that should be focused on

10 serious issues for the state. The next redistricting should

11 be followed by the 2010 census. Redistricting creates

12 voting district equal to the population. It is necessary

13 that each citizen's vote carries the same weight. Our

14 position is based on a conviction that a population standard

15 is the most equitable way to assure that each vote is of

16 equal value.

17 Unfortunately, partisan political concerns often take

18 precedence in redistricting to use to gerrymander or protect

19 incumbents of a party in power. This does not serve the

20 interest of citizens when district lines are drawn so the

21 districts are not competitive when one or another group is

22 assured or a party is making our vote so diluted if we think

23 that our vote doesn't have any impact, we lose the

24 motivation to participate. This can happen when you belong

25 to a group that always loses or the group that always wins.

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Page 565 1 The League urges you to make the protection of, the

2 value and weight of each vote in an election, make that be

3 your paramount goal during the redistricting process. In

4 regard to that end League members support the following

5 standard far the redistricting process in the future

6 decennial elections. A commission with the initial

7 responsibility for formulating a redistricting plan should

8 be established. The commission should be appointed,

9 bipartisan, small in size, and composed of an odd number of

10 participants. If a commission is not initially responsible,

11 the legislature should conduct the work of redistricting

12 during special session called the sole purpose ever

13 redistricting. The special session should operate within a

14 short, strict time frame, and timely manner following the

15 2010 census.

16 The state legislature should be responsible for the

17 final approval of the redistricting plan. Specific

18 provisions should be made for audit court review, preferably

19 by the Texas State Supreme Court, and indefinite

20 pre-established time limits in the process should be

21 included. And incidentally the League is supportive of SB 6

22 and SJR 2 that have been filed by Senator Jeff Wentworth.

23 We consider they meet most of these goals.

24 Many of the League's long held positions are now mandated

25 by law. We agree that the districts should be apportioned

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Page 566 1 on the basis of equal population. The districts should be

2 single member and contiguous, and the districts should not

3 be drawn to dilute the voting strengths of minority

4 populations. In addition, the League believes the following

5 guidelines should be met. District lines should coincide

6 with the local political subdivisions. Consideration should

7 be given to ensure districts or compact. Retention of

8 incumbents should not be a primary consideration and

9 political party strength should not be a consideration at

10 all.

11 Drawing the lines to divide the state into districts where

12 all voters have a real chance of having their concerns

13 addressed is crucial in maintaining that our government and

14 our work will affect the most vital part of our democracy,

15 the citizens vote. Protecting the vote, not partisan gains

16 should be your sole focus in redistricting. Thank you for

17 your concerns and your attention to our concerns.

18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: James Hubert, is

19 that the way you say it?

20 JAMES HUBEUER

21 Good morning. My name is James Hubeuer. I actually live in

22 Duncanville and Martin Frost is my Congressman, and he had

23 been my Congressman for a while. I moved back and forth. I

24 had , I had Sam Johnson, I had Pete Sessions, I

25 had John Bryant, and I tell you that I like Martin. Not

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Page 567 1 because he is a Democrat, but because I believe he has 2 represented his district well. I believe he has represented 3 Democrats Green Party, Libertarians, Republicans all 4 equally. I think he is a fine Congressman. We really want 5 to keep him. 6 I also want to talk on this silly exercise. I am 7 against opening up redistricting, but I already know the 8 Governor has called a special session and we are going to 9 have redistricting. So in the best effort to be honest, 10 this map over here, it's 1180C. I believe Mr. Isett wants 11 me to refer to it as 1180C; is that correct 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's actually 1187. 13 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, 1187. The is the 14 best effort that came out of the redistricting committee? 15 I'm sorry. 16 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I think its 1180. 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I am not sure. 18 THE WITNESS: 1180. I am trying to be as 19 technical as possible. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: What's the number, 21 187 Richard. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I was thinking of 23 Proposition 187 in California. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. If this is best 25 effort that is coming out of Committee, then I encourage to

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Page 568 1 adopt this over here. I will tell you that as a student of 2 history, as a student of politics, this is great. Let me 3 tell you something. Oh, my gosh, the amount of court 4 battles, the transcripts, the testimony on this alone will 5 be six, seven, eight years and millions and millions of 6 dollars. I am talking about lawyers and everyone. Everyone 7 can have a field day on this. This gentleman has already 8 been approved by the courts. And so if you are, and you 9 plan on having redistricting, I really encourage you to 10 adopt these districts. you will have another opportunity. 11 You will have another opportunity to do reapportionment of 12 Texas. Texas is going to grow in population. As 13 Mr. Raymond will understand, our majority minority you 14 believe will really be close to 2010 you think you will have 15 opportunity, and some of you may not choose to serve any 16 longer in the legislature, and I hope, you know, that you 17 will make those wise decisions. 18 I have been down to the legislature 20 times 19 this session. I can tell you that the Texas Legislature is 20 probably the best contact sport in the State of Texas. I 21 have been to Cowboys games, and I am telling you, you guys 22 are the best. I mean as far as some of the things you say 23 and some of the things that you try to do to the people of 24 Texas scares me. Lot of eloquent people have come before me 25 to speak and I appreciate all of them. I do appreciate that

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Page 569 1 there were 51 very brave individuals who left, and it's not 2 because I am a Democrat I believe that's great, but I 3 believe that if they hadn't this is what we would have had. 4 We would have had very little input. Some of these people 5 that came today to speak in favor of redistricting would not 6 have had that input. I believe that is what we would have 7 had, and I strongly am opposed to this type of political, 8 you know, gerrymandering is what they call it. That's the 9 common term, but I am opposed to this because I do think 10 that some of these districts are completely ridiculous. 11 Some of these districts travel across Dallas County, Tarrant 12 County -- I'm sorry, I am familiar with Mr. Martin Frost. I 13 don't know that he represents Arlington as well as he 14 represents Ennis, Texas, but that could be up for debate. 15 Mr. Grusendorf I am sure thinks another way. I belief some 16 of these districts the West Texas, eviscerates some of the 17 historic communities of interest, and I believe some of 18 these districts in Houston, and Harris County, and Travis 19 County really, really destroy communities that have been 20 together for a very long time, and have grown, and I agree 21 that that type of representation is necessary for everyone 22 to have a voice, and I the thank you for your time and I 23 will take questions. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Members have any 25 questions?

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Page 570 1 Thank you, sir. Tom Blackwell. 2 TOM BLACKWELL 3 Good morning, I am Tom Blackwell. I represent myself. I 4 live in Dallas County in the 32nd Congressional District. 5 Like Mr. Ferguson, I am a native Texan. I have made some 6 notes in advance. I am against redistricting. First, I am 7 concerned about the cost of all this, not just for the 8 special session, but for the additional cost that citizens 9 have in coming here and at the previous hearings in Austin 10 seeking to have their views considered. I am concerned 11 about funding of needed government functions being denied by 12 action of the Appropriations Committee for the Governor's 13 veto. Yet we are told that state tax money must be spent 14 for this special session. There may be additional court 15 costs that will go on for years and years. I think I heard 16 Professor Alford say $17 million. There may be some 17 additional costs to local governments where commissioners 18 courts are required to draw new precinct lines, or create 19 new precincts and hold elections in new re-districts as a 20 result of any redistricting. 21 I am concerned because I do not see any great 22 dissatisfaction by the public at large with the existing 23 Constitutional district. Yet we are here. It seems the 24 challenge for those of us who come here to oppose 25 redistricting is to determine what can be said that will

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Page 571 1 change the result of the vote of this Committee. Is there

2 anything at all that any of us can say that will result in a

3 majority report by this Committee with a decision that the

4 lines should remain as they are? I will do my best and I

5 will try not to repeat what others have said. I live in

6 District 32 and I support the existing lines. The people

7 who live in the district have a common ground. There should

8 not be an attempt to move people who have a different local

9 economy, or background, or political view into this district

10 with different views, and districts should be districts with

11 members of Congress that they can be comfortable with.

12 Now, we see a number of Congressional Districts where

13 voters have cast ballots for Governor, U.S. Senator or

14 another statewide office with one party and a member of

15 Congress from the other party. This shows that the people

16 voting there are thinking carefully about their choices.

17 This means the Congressional District is in the control of

18 the people who live there rather than under the control of

19 some political party boss in Washington. We have a stronger

20 state as a result. I believe the state is stronger where

21 the local districts are controlled by people who live there.

22 I also see a lot of value in the seniority of those who are

23 elected to office. It is likely that until the next census

24 in 2010, and the next regular restricting in 2011, that

25 there will be periods of time when each political party will

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Page 572 1 have a majority in the U.S. House. The most senior members 2 of the party with the majority will assume the positions of 3 greatest influence. If the plan that is in the works to 4 remove senior Texas Democrats and replace them with freshman 5 Republicans is adopted, then the years where the Democrats 6 have a majority in Congress, senior Democrats will be there. 7 Senior Democrats will have the influence and control of 8 legislation, but those senior Democrats won't be from Texas. 9 The senior Democrats will be people from other states like 10 , and Illinois, and California. I want to keep the 11 Texas seniority status in place. It is an arrangement that 12 is best for our state. In a previous redistricting 13 effort -- 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You have used about 15 four minutes. A little over four minutes. 16 THE WITNESS: That's fine. I am about 17 finished. In a previous redistricting effort Democratic 18 Senator Ted Lyon from Mesquite took this rather nonpartisan 19 stand. The stand he took and the stand I represent is to 20 keep district lines that will provide an opportunity for the 21 incumbent to remain and keep their status of seniority and 22 influence no matter which party has the majority. The U.S. 23 House should also respect those districts where people have 24 voted for candidates of one party for some office and 25 another party for Congress.

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Page 573 1 People live and die because of decisions made 2 by Congress. It's just that important. This is why so many 3 people -- of us care so deeply about it and have come 4 forward to make our voices heard at this hearing and to ask 5 for your careful consideration. We should keep the existing 6 imperfect license until after the next census. I thank you. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Alfredo Castaneda. 8 Mr. Castaneda has requested a translator. 9 ALFREDO CASTANEDA 10 Well, I was going to see if I could make it with my English 11 but you're welcome. I just wanted to say something in 12 English that the Republicans have a lousy way to face 13 reality. I just wanted to say that in English. You can 14 help me now. Let me do it in English. I like challenges. 15 My name is Alfredo Castaneda. I am with the 16 organization -- 17 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Alfredo, is it your 18 choice to do it in either Spanish or English? 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I was going to do it in 20 Spanish. I changed my mind because I want to practice my 21 English. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: I want to thank you for this 24 opportunity. I want to thank you for being here, and people 25 who are still here, and what I wanted to say is that I work

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Page 574 1 with the Hispanic community as well as with the authorities 2 in the Anglo and in the community in general because we look 3 at ourselves as regular citizens. You know, we emigrated 4 from another country trying to find a better way of life, 5 and we been proving that. I think it has been proven 6 because the best minority are majority of the immigrants 7 come to work. I am talking about Latino immigrants. I am 8 not very familiar with rest of the immigrants I know working 9 from all over the world. 10 But any way, what I think with that little 11 map that is kind of funny, but what I want to touch is the 12 point that I feel like we are starting to lose power. One 13 of the reasons they are afraid to lose power because they 14 don't really -- they don't really understand the lifestyle 15 of the lower class people. What they are doing is making it 16 worse. Cutting the budget on services that people need, 17 especially senior citizens or the kids who need education. 18 When you deny education to your people you're putting limits 19 on the development. Putting limits on your country, on the 20 whole thing, or taking the rights for your own party and 21 denying to the rest of the nation, which is -- I don't know 22 which is worse, but none of that is good for the nation, and 23 this nation is based on immigrants. I don't see why brown 24 couldn't be better than white, or blue, or yellow. I think 25 we are losing the point.

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Page 575 1 When this country was founded being 2 immigrants was the most natural thing for immigrants. As a 3 matter of fact, I am half native Mexican and half European. 4 I speak in Spanish but I am proud of both. I can be 5 European. I can be native and feel proud of myself. I am 6 happy that I have both cultures, and now I am happy that I 7 speak English too. And I don't want to see any differences 8 in colors. I mean I thank God who gave me this vision, this 9 feeling that I can get along with anybody. The 10 African-Americans, they have their culture, their roots just 11 like any other human being. The Indians, the Mayans who 12 came up with zero with a calendar. Who had scientists, and 13 medicine, mathematics, and astrology. Hey, there was 14 talents everywhere. Why are we denying the service to, say, 15 people who need it? Why do we -- why do we want to keep the 16 power selfishly? That's what this is about. We want to 17 keep the poor in their level and we want to deny the 18 opportunity to go as far as they can freely just like this 19 country is supposed to be. So I don't have anything against 20 any Republicans, and I don't have anything against that map, 21 but I just want to tell you that the way that Republicans 22 are doing things is making it worse, and Hispanics is a very 23 productive people who come to work. We are not taking 24 anything from anybody. 25 As a matter of fact, if I had the right

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Page 576 1 numbers now, we would been helping the economy not only in 2 Texas but the whole nation because we make construction 3 works cheaper. The budget, we work with lower budget and we 4 do lot of work. Highways and any -- any infrastructure job 5 on the fields, we been there. When this war -- when this 6 labor is needed we are there. 7 The last statement I want to make, I was born 8 in Durango, Mexico and I been here for twenty years, but in 9 my hometown there was two guys. One his name was Pepe 10 Falzparsas and other one Alfredo Salinas. They were pilots 11 and they were flying on the Squadron 201 when Mexico helped 12 the United States in the second World War, so Mexico has 13 been helping the United States not only with labor but with 14 oil and now other natural resources. We been buying 15 American goods since ever. We don't manufacture our own. 16 Nothing hardly. We been buying it from the United States, 17 so if the Republicans put their attention on the industry, 18 just keep in mind that the Mexicans and lower class people 19 are the consumers of the products that the rich peoples 20 making. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 22 testimony. Boone Taylor. 23 THE WITNESS: Give me a moment, sir. 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: After Boone Taylor, 25 Kenneth Stretcher. After Kenneth Stretcher is Gordon

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Page 577 1 Peterson. 2 BOONE TAYLOR 3 This is a sing-along. I have got one for each member of the 4 Committee. 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Sir, are you going 6 to give testimony about the districting plan? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I am. I am Boone 8 Taylor. I am speaking for myself, but I am also the singing 9 voice of at least 12,000 members of the Texas State 10 Employees Union. I have been their minstrel for about 20 11 years. I am here to sing for you the Ballad of the Killer 12 D's. It's particularly appropriate for me sing this song. 13 Twenty years ago I wrote and sang the Ballad of the Killer 14 Bees. Before I sing I have a couple of comments to make. 15 I am disgusted and appalled at the manner in 16 which these hearings have apparently been planned and 17 conducted. With all due respect to you, sir, Mr. Chairman, 18 I think you have tried to do a good job today. There is 19 many popular stores and offices that give you a number. 20 Give the customers a number so the rule of first come, first 21 serve can be effectively followed. It's clear to me that 22 wasn't done here today and it's clear that these hearings 23 are too rushed and too disorganized to be fair to anyone 24 that was here. 25 I want to say to my fellow Democrats I think

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Page 578 1 many of us have been rude today. I hope everyone 2 understands that people tend to get rude when they are 3 subjected to a flawed and unjust process. This morning I 4 was trying to hush my fellow Democrats. After about 12 5 hours it became more difficult for me to be fair. Perhaps 6 Governor Perry should have allowed enough time for public 7 input without subjecting all of us, including you gentlemen, 8 to this long and trying day. I am currently suffering from 9 two fatal diseases. I will likely be dead by the time the 10 next census is done and this next redistricting is done. I 11 would really rather have spent today with my family because 12 I have a few days left in my life. 13 I don't think I should have to wait for 16 14 hours, nor should any citizen of this state to sing you one 15 song or make one statement. I have remained here because I 16 will be damned if I will allow Tom DeLay to silence me 17 before my body does so, and I am going to cut out the chorus 18 except for one in the interest of time. I didn't write the 19 tune, but I wrote the lyrics. I don't want to hurt anybody. 20 (Mr. Boone serenades audience.) 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Taylor. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I would just like 24 to say although I may not share your enthusiasm with your 25 message, I do appreciate your talent.

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Page 579 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. I appreciate 2 that comment. Good morning to you-all. I am going to go 3 back to my family now. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Kenneth Stretcher 5 After Mr. Stretcher will be Mr. Peterson. Come forward. 6 KENNETH STRETCHER 7 My name is Kenneth Stretcher. I am with the Local 100 8 Service Employees International Union and our members are 9 predominantly racially oppressed low wage public sector 10 employees that live in the 24th and 30th Congressional 11 Districts, and I am here to testify that they're satisfied 12 with lines that exist and they are satisfied with their 13 representation. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you for your 15 testimony, sir. Rachel Gray. 16 RACHEL GRAY 17 Gentleman. People of the Committee. First of all I think I 18 would like to comment I think it's notable that we are here 19 to discuss these issues. It has been a very long day for 20 all of us. I will try to keep all these short. We are here 21 to discuss these issues thanks to the courageous heroes of 22 Ardmore. I was pleased to go up to Ardmore. We drove up 23 there to meet with them and we had a chance to speak with 24 several of them there at the Holiday Inn to watch the press 25 and observe some of the media circus around us. There are

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Page 580 1 those who say they shirked their responsibility. I think 2 that is clearly bogus. These gentleman, these ladies were 3 there. They were doing their job. They were there to make 4 sure that their constituents were represented and that their 5 interests were not being steamrollered. Those people who 6 will criticize them are saying that they were -- they needed 7 to be back in Austin participating in the dialogue. There 8 was no dialogue going in Austin. That was a steamroller 9 that was going to completely overrun them trying to push 10 this ridiculous map through completely over their objections 11 and without allowing the people of the State of Texas to 12 hear about what was going on, and even knowing what was 13 going on or to have the voice that we have had even with 14 these token meetings the last several days, which are also a 15 sham of public representation in these affairs. 16 Now everyone knows that restricting is a 17 partisan process. I think that the best way to avoid that 18 kind of partisan process is to let the Courts and the Judges 19 do it. I think that's part of how this -- the original map 20 that we currently have got there. At least it was done in a 21 nonpartisan way by the courts. I mean the courts, okay, 22 Judges are elected too and they have a party affiliation, 23 but at least there is a pretense that they are not 24 nonpartisan in their judgment. We claim that they have some 25 measure of judicial wisdom. I have not been politically

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Page 581 1 active for a very long time. I have gotten that way. I 2 didn't know -- used to know gerrymandering went on. I have 3 had an idea, but really had no clue until I got involved in 4 seeing this redistricting action. 5 Now, there is an interesting story I would 6 like to tell you. I work as a computer consultant and there 7 is a story that is told of Charles Baggage. Charles Babbage 8 was an inventor and invented the first mechanical computers 9 over a hundred years ago. Dr. Baggage invented this machine 10 he called a difference engine that did calculations that was 11 made up of these gears and pulleys and things. He 12 demonstrated in front of members of parliament which is 13 probably much like the meeting we are at today. He had 14 these two members of parliament came up to him and say this: 15 Dr. Babbage, this invention, if you put the wrong numbers 16 into it, will it still produce the correct answer? 17 Dr. Babbage walked away shaking his head and later commented 18 it is difficult to conceive of the nature of confusion that 19 could even provoke such a question. 20 Now, it's clear that a lot of the people here 21 today -- there have been some Republicans here today. We 22 have overwhelmingly had people against the redistricting. 23 Most of them are Democrats. I think most of the Republicans 24 are, in fact, good and sincere people most of the time. 25 They believe sincerely that what they are doing is correct,

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Page 582 1 but like Dr. Babbage difference engine, if you put the wrong 2 information in you get lies. The people of Texas, you got 3 to assume, like the difference engine, they will not reach 4 the correct answer. And we have got in Washington, we have 5 got a news media that has not been telling people the truth. 6 The same news media that attacked unmercilessly President 7 Clinton when he was in office and treated the current 8 Republican administration with kid gloves. But the fact 9 that we have got these meetings going today. The people 10 that showed up earlier it's clear some people at least or 11 starting to understand what is going on. Not a lot. There 12 is still a lot of people that still don't understand. There 13 is many people you hear about the restricting. They don't 14 realize if you go to Austin. Most of us have driven through 15 Austin at one point or another between the state Capitol 16 building and State Highway I-35. It's seven blocks. It's 17 an easy walk between the two. If you walk between the state 18 Capitol and I-35 you cross four Congressional Districts 19 under this map. Four Congressional Districts in a seven 20 block walk. Of those, two of those Congressional Districts, 21 one of them stretches to the border of Mexico. The other 22 one almost to Houston. You tell me. A lot of these 23 Republicans have been talking in favor of this map. Suggest 24 that they want to better represent the communities of 25 interest and better represent the will of the voters of

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Page 583 1 Texas. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Your time. 3 THE WITNESS: They claim this better 4 represents the people of Texas. You tell me how this messed 5 up map and when you explain this thing about seven blocks 6 and four Congressional Districts to people of Texas, people 7 may not be terribly politically sophisticated. I have not 8 told that to anyone that hasn't said that's screwed up, 9 okay? 10 Now, the only community of interest that is 11 being fully represented in this redistricting hearing that 12 is being fully considered is the Republican Party. That's 13 the only community of interest that you people are really 14 truly concerned about. Okay, so any way, that's what I had 15 to say. I am glad that there are at least a few people 16 left. A lot of people have left already. A few people left 17 to hear that there are a lot of us that are very unhappy. 18 The Internet empowers people to find out what is going on, 19 as I found out a lot about this redistricting through the 20 Dallas Democrats discussion groups. As people find out what 21 is going on you are going to find that controlling the news 22 media and monopolizing that misleads the people of Texas 23 into voting for the Republican Party that doesn't represent 24 them. They only think it does. You are going to find that 25 is going to be increasingly difficult to do, and change of

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Page 584 1 demographics as someone commented earlier, this is a very 2 dangerous precedent you-all are setting to redistrict soon 3 and you get control. Eventually you will be restricted 4 right back out. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. I will glad to 6 answer any questions. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Rachel Gray. 8 Against. Renea Hicks. Against. 9 RENEA HICKS 10 I just want you-all to call my name one time when I am 11 awake. I did it at 3:00 o'clock I think in the last hearing 12 we had in Austin. So I apologize if I am a little fuzzy in 13 my talking here. I am Renae Hicks. I am here on behalf of 14 Texas Congressional Democrats. I was a lawyer for the state 15 for long time, but I was lawyer for the state in 16 redistricting from 1990 through '99 or '97, those fights, or 17 through 1995 I guess is when I left, but that played out 18 ultimately in 1997, and I have been involved in 19 redistricting this round on behalf of Democrats starting 20 with the litigation after you-all failed to do your job in 21 the last session. I want to first thing I want to do is 22 focus on the constant refrain about what Attorney General 23 Abbott's opinion said or didn't say. Attorney General 24 Abbott's opinion, the request from Chairman Crabb was do we 25 have to do this? And the answer back from the Attorney

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Page 585 1 General, no, you don't. That's the answer he gave to the

2 legal question. Now, the Attorney General threw in a bunch

3 of other stuff to soften you up, to I used to draft opinions

4 for the Attorney General's office for a number of years. I

5 know how it works. There is nothing in that opinion that

6 has an analysis about why you may redistrict. Has no

7 analysis at all of it. It just throws it in in language

8 over and over again so you could say the Attorney General

9 said we may do this. This Attorney General did no analysis.

10 I would caution you in the legal sense to be very careful

11 about relying on that language he threw in to think that

12 gives you any legal basis for really acting.

13 Now, they just threw that in to help you to make it more

14 helpful to help you when you know that wasn't the answer you

15 wanted. He did no analysis. I think that's for you to

16 understand you go into this process, it's not a process you

17 really have to. I think there's a question about whether

18 you may -- whether you may actually do the redistricting.

19 Another question I want to talk also about, the U.S.

20 Supreme Court decision two days ago, Georgia versus Ashcroft

21 several people have mentioned I know Mr. Lichtman did. I

22 can't recall who else did. Frankly, it has extreme

23 importance to you-all. It is I think a change in the way

24 the law is. Certainly in the Fifth Circuit which is where

25 Texas is. I think in the nation it's a major opinion from

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Page 586 1 the Supreme Court to the way redistricting works. It's the 2 first time that the Supreme Court has essentially said in a 3 strong way when you are doing an analysis with respect to 4 the Voting Rights Act of redistricting actions, what you do 5 is you look at not just simple numbers 50 percent VAP, 50 6 percent CBAP. Those numbers, you don't look at that 7 anymore. The Supreme Court's decision in Georgia versus 8 Ashcroft says you look at numbers but you look at them from 9 a percent perspective. Political reality, it says put 10 political reality into an analysis situation. You do, and 11 when you are complying with Voting Rights Act, whenever you 12 enact a map as 1180C, if you are doing a map like 1180C, you 13 don't look at do we have 50 percent as compared to 14 50 percent over here on the other map. You don't do that 15 anymore. You take political reality into account. It 16 recognizes for the first time clear thinking from the U.S. 17 Supreme Court. It is clear now they recognize what are 18 called influence districts. You heard Representative 19 Grusendorf knows that because he has been involved in 20 redistricting. So long as there has been a process, there 21 has been such a thing as influence districts under the 22 Voting Rights Act. First time it's really clearly there. I 23 am going to come back to influence districts in a second. 24 Let me just run through real quickly. I also saw 25 there was a gentleman here speaking on behalf of the NAACP.

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Page 587 1 It also says in looking at the political reality of whether

2 you are retrogressing under the Voters Right Act, you look

3 at what you are doing to actual delegation in Washington.

4 You look -- that was a senate case. It was a state senate

5 case. In this one you looked to what it actually does, or

6 your redistricting does to the delegation in Congress in

7 terms of its powers, seniority, things like that.

8 And you look at it from the perspective of those

9 who are elected from districts that have substantial

10 minority influence. You have to take that into account in

11 the term retrogression. For instance the NAACP report card

12 that gentlemen mentioned that Republicans do much lower on

13 than the Democrats. Much lower. Its isn't even close.

14 Much lower. On the Democrats there is a retrogressive

15 effect as you use that score card as a whole for the Texas

16 delegation.

17 All right, I am not going to go through the whole opinion.

18 I understand that the -- let me just cul down since we are

19 in North Texas to two Congressional Districts.

20 Congressional District 24 and Congressional District 30

21 exist as they are here in North Texas are minority

22 opportunity districts under the Voting Rights Act. If it

23 wasn't clear -- I think if it wasn't clear before Georgia

24 vs. Ashcroft, it is absolutely clear now that Congressional

25 District 24 is a minority opportunity district. I think

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Page 588 1 Dr. Lichtman's testimony he has given the past, I suspect in

2 it, the report he has given to the Committee intended to

3 make it clear before this it was a minority opportunity

4 district.

5 Now, I don't think there is any question that Congressional

6 District 24 is a minority opportunity district, and getting

7 of it is what this plan would do is getting rid of a

8 minority opportunity district. And let's be clear that it's

9 other voters. You-all have heard this over and over again.

10 I am going to say it one more time. It's the voters that

11 count. It's the African-Americans --

12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: You are a couple of

13 minutes past you time.

14 THE WITNESS: It's African-American voters

15 that count, not the color of the person those voters elect.

16 So the fact that Congressman Frost is Anglo does not detract

17 one whit from District 24 being a minority opportunity

18 district. It's what the voters did. I have a lot more to

19 say. Obviously we are all tired.

20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you.

21 Mr. Raymond and then there Grusendorf. Mr. Raymond and then

22 Mr. Grusendorf.

23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: You want to go

24 first? He's going to clean up. We will see about that.

25 I am interested in this because you are

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Page 589 1 talking about -- I think about the new ruling which is very, 2 very new, and I am really interested in how it's going to 3 affect what is going on here. So when you say influence 4 district, is minority opportunity district the same thing? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, there are minority 6 opportunity districts. some of them can be majority minority 7 as we continue to still use that lingo. In the past there 8 was a debate out in law so to speak and among the political 9 centers whether things such as an influence district counts 10 as a minority opportunity district. Now, it is clear that 11 you can have a district -- I think it's clear. 12 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: But now you can have 13 minority opportunity districts within the meaning of the 14 Voting Rights Act. That is on the 50 percent citizens VAP 15 Hispanics or 50 percent black VAP because you think because 16 the new opinion makes it a lot more clear. 17 THE WITNESS: It makes it clear. It doesn't 18 just make it more clear. It makes it abundantly clear is 19 way to say it. This is on the Georgia case. This is 20 Georgia vs. Ashcroft case. 21 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Does it indicate 22 there in there but only in Georgia? 23 THE WITNESS: No, there is nothing in there 24 that hints it's only in Georgia I think it means even in 25 Texas.

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Page 590 1 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: So let me -- that's 2 pretty good. So then when you look at Texas you would say 3 24, and then what is Green's number? I don't know. 4 THE WITNESS: District 29. 5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Twenty-nine. 6 THE WITNESS: There was no question about 7 Congressman Green's district or within his district, the 8 voter's district, but one, he is elected from District 29 9 already. It wasn't eve an influence district. It was more 10 than that because it had some more substantial percentage 11 districts. Twenty-five I think the court decided Balderas. 12 Said District 25 was a minority opportunity district. Then 13 it specifically says that in the opinion, so the only one 14 that was not completely, completely locked in that I can 15 think of right now as a minority opportunity district in the 16 words of the opinion that was decided that led to this map 17 was District 24. There were hints in there they thought it 18 was too now. There is no question. There is no analysis 19 any where that I have seen that suggests otherwise. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: What about I have -- 21 just haven't looked at the numbers close enough. What about 22 something like 10? 23 THE WITNESS: Congressman Edwards district; 24 is that right? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No.

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Page 591 1 THE WITNESS: Which one? Ten, Doggets 2 District. It would not count as a minority influence 3 district. I don't think -- the influence isn't whether they 4 have anyone influence at all. It's not controlled. 5 Something less than controlled. There is a sliding scale 6 that I don't remember the percentages in Congressman -- 7 that's my district, but the district I live in, but I don't 8 remember the percentages. The percentages are not even 9 close to the percentages of minority voters that are in 10 Congressional District 24 for instance, so it might not 11 count when people talk about influence districts. For 12 coalitional districts as they also refer to it in this 13 opinion, but I do think that it plays a role with respect to 14 what happens on this NAACP report card that I was talking 15 about that the other gentleman could talk about so much 16 better than I could, but in terms of the law side of it, 17 this opinion suggests that to Texas that you eliminate 18 somebody with level of seniority of Congressman Dogget who 19 has un-questioned by anybody massive support from the 20 minority community and minority voters that are in his 21 district to the extent you lessen what he can do and say to 22 somebody who scores a F or whatever the lower grade is you 23 were talking about on that report card for that person that 24 always also goes on scale of that -- that plays a role in 25 the retrogression analysis under Georgia versus Ashcroft.

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Page 592 1 That alone is not determinative, but it is part of the 2 analyses, yet it plays a role in Congressional District 10. 3 It's much stronger than Congressional District 24. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Let me just ask this 5 last question about that new opinion. My wife who is Anglo 6 asked me the other day when she heard about that new 7 opinion, and read it and read how the description of the 8 news article was that the Bush Administration had argued 9 very forcibly against it. She said, "Why is Bush against -- 10 arguing so forcibly against?" What was in the opinion? Why 11 were they? 12 A. Well, this goes to some degree to it's very 13 difficult. The Republican Party over the last two decades 14 has been very effective, even though they were actually all 15 along to the voting Rights Act, has been very effective in 16 using the Voting Rights Act One of the efforts they made in 17 this one, although I think it failed, the effort was made in 18 this one to use the Voting Rights Act to gain Republican 19 advantage by packing. Taking minorities out of districts 20 like Congressional District 10, or it used to be 21 Congressional District 24, whatever, they were very 22 effective in using that. There was a dilemma created by 23 that approach with basic philosophy that had been long 24 espoused by the Republican Party which was a basic 25 opposition to these -- they used a quota system, but these

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Page 593 1 giving away the preference of some sort to make up for past 2 differences with respect to the way the minorities have been 3 treated, and so you had this kind of schizophrenia if you 4 want to call it that in Republican philosophy. It was a 5 very practical voting rights advantage to themselves, but at 6 the same time the very philosophy that they had on a broader 7 sense was inconsistent with that. They were using the 8 Solicitor General's office and Justice Department, Ted Olson 9 the Solicitor General under President Bush. He has long 10 been a major opponent of this kind of system. The basic 11 reason for them taking that position they did in opposition 12 to the outcome of this Supreme Court position or the 13 principles in the Supreme Court position was they were going 14 with the philosophy we don't like the kind of preferences, 15 as they call them. So I think that's it. I can't read his 16 mind so I don't know exactly, but that would be my reading 17 as a lawyer what was going on. My understanding the 18 Solicitor General's office. 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It's all yours, 20 Ken. 21 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Good to see you 22 again that you were retained to help the Congressional 23 delegates through this hearing today. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Did you all have

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Page 594 1 expert witnesses here that we heard today? 2 THE WITNESS: You heard Dr. Lichtman. 3 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: And you heard Dr. Alford. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Okay. So both of 6 those? 7 THE WITNESS: My brain as had kind of quit 8 working. 9 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Those are the two 10 you know of that were retained by you-all? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: So that's two 13 expert witnesses that's all of the paid witnesses you had 14 today? 15 THE WITNESS: That's all I know. I don't 16 know if they are getting paid yet. I didn't cross examine 17 them about their check. They were retained by the 18 Congressional Democrats. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: They were 20 retained but you don't know whether they have been paid yet? 21 THE WITNESS: I don't know whether they have 22 been paid. 23 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Absentee, 24 Mr. Lichtman after the two last times he testified in 25 Austin, he didn't remember who was paying him. I thought I

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Page 595 1 would ask you instead.

2 THE WITNESS: I didn't know who was writing

3 the check. Congressional Democrats.

4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you.

5 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: One more question.

6 Do you know who is writing the checks for all of the

7 Republican expert witnesses in the State of Texas?

8 THE WITNESS: The gentleman out there said

9 there was a chance to get employed.

10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mary Stretcher?

11 Mary Stretcher here?

12 MARY STRETCHER

13 Nay name is Mary Stretcher. I am a nurse. I live in

14 Dallas, Texas. I am here because I am dismayed by the

15 trends of things that are going on. We have the election.

16 We elected -- we appointed a President. We couldn't even

17 attend the inauguration. We were behind the grand stands

18 which I consider pretty disenfranchised, but we did get to

19 see those armored personnel carriers and they were really

20 cool. It gave us a chance to understand what the Iraqi

21 people are seeing now. Very outstanding.

22 Number two, I got a chance to attend the secret meeting of

23 the University of Texas Board of Regents. They are only a

24 group of people that meet when they want to. People get to

25 talk to them if they put it on the agenda. Very interesting

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Page 596 1 concept. The only reason I got to speak is our wonderful 2 host university here, UT Southwestern, slipped something on 3 the agenda after the agenda was closed, and we happened to 4 know about it, and so we testified against it. The problem 5 was that it was very interesting also. They sat and played 6 with their papers, got up went out for a drink, did 7 everything except give me any respect. So I am getting kind 8 of tired of finding out about these things under the rug. I 9 am tired of things happening at the last moment. I don't 10 think that's fair. I don't think it's fair to anybody are 11 anyone, and I think this map -- and I don't know if it's 12 1180 or whatever it is, this one. This one right over here 13 on the side of Mr. Raymond so you know which one I am 14 talking about. That map is a war on the people. You know 15 what principals of war are? You surround your enemy and you 16 destroy them. When you put a small minority population and 17 you surround them by other people, you are putting a war on 18 the people. Congratulations. You have extended war to our 19 borders. Thank you. 20 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Dee Jay 21 Johannessen. 22 DEE JAY JOHANNESSEN 23 Hello, my name is Dee Jay Johannessen. I am here opposing 24 the redistricting. I serve as Executive Director for Health 25 Education, a learning project and a minority based nonprofit

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Page 597 1 organization in Fort Worth which provide services for the 2 most marginalized of Texans. Our women's health 3 initiative -- 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Johannessen, is 5 that Fort Worth? 6 THE WITNESS: That is Fort Worth. There are 7 women's health initiatives over the past three years. 723 8 at risk women have been enrolled in our program that 9 provides access to health care, housing assistance, domestic 10 violence shelter and drug recovery programs. 89.1 percent 11 of those women had no access to health care and neither did 12 the children. And we have twenty eight children living in 13 their homes after the three years of the program. The 14 emergency room visits for these people went down buy 80 15 percent. Three hundred fifty-two of the families had 16 enrolled their children in the CHIP program, our Clemente 17 Program based on a program outside of Harlem which takes 18 marginalized people and focuses on the development of 19 critical thinking skills and reintegrating them in our 20 community. This program we offer to people who are living 21 with HIV. Over 100 people have gone through that program, 22 and in the original Clemente course of 22 of 23 graduates 23 who were on benefits, homeless or unemployed when they came 24 into the program, 22 out of 23 people were fully employed or 25 attending school full time after the first year of

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Page 598 1 graduation. 2 I say this because a core value of help of 3 our organization is that prevention is not only more cost 4 effective, but it is more humane than after the fact 5 intervention. The redistricting proposal you are having 6 here is neither cost effective, nor is it humane. In 7 researching this whole process I went into a lot of things. 8 I am not going to get into the merits of them because 9 Professor Alford, who was right up there, had a lot to do 10 with my testimony. I quoted him extensively. I think he 11 did a much better job than I ever could why we do not want 12 to put this forward before the Texas people, and let's say 13 Tarrant County. It's going to cost money. 14 In 2001 the legislature failed to redistrict. 15 At that time Governor Perry had the ability to call a 16 special session. He chose not to do so, and instead have 17 the courts draw up the map. So with the courts, and John 18 Cornyn and the other Republicans, that map was drawn up. 19 That map was approved by the courts, and it was done so at 20 the wish of Governor Perry. I wondered why it was he would 21 choose for the courts to do it. In fact, the Republicans 22 didn't control the legislature. He did not want to have to 23 negotiate with the Democrats. He felt he had a better shot 24 with the courts, so he took his -- he took a chance on that 25 one, and even thought Professor Alford was your witness in

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Page 599 1 2001, he was your expert in 2002. 2 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: He was 3 Mr. Cornyn's. 4 THE WITNESS: Mr. Cornyn who helped draw that 5 up and who the Republicans -- 6 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Cornyn is a 7 Republican. 8 THE WITNESS: They drew that up, and he sat 9 here today and told you that map will work for you. It will 10 accomplish everything you want this map to do, but it's 11 going to take some time and some work. The fact is you-all 12 don't want to take the time and work. You want a microwave 13 version. I want this done and I want it to come right now 14 Through this proposal you have the ability to have your 20 15 districts, but you don't want to do the work. 16 We have all heard that Texas is facing a 17 deficit of up to $10 billion. As the director of a 18 nonprofit agency, I have been unfortunate witness to 19 dismantling of programs that serve the most needy of all 20 Texans. The aids drug assistance program has been 21 restructured leaving 10,000 people without the medication 22 they need to fight the disease. The children's health 23 insurance program is being dismantled placing the health of 24 160,000 of our children at risk. Medicaid is being slashed 25 to eliminate mental health coverage or neonatal coverage.

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Page 600 1 The cuts are lauded as necessary to balance the budget. 2 This redistricting process is going to cost 3 somewhere between $1.7 and $17 million. With the 4 seventeen -- actually $16 million -- it was easy for me to 5 do the math -- with $16,000,000, 4,896 people living with 6 HIV can continue receiving the life saving medications they 7 so severely need. They are getting ready to be dropped from 8 that program. Once you are on ace inhibitors you cannot be; 9 dropped. Ace inhibitors you build up resistance. That 10 class of drug is never good for you again. Once you have 11 cut this from that program you cannot allow them to just 12 restart . 13 THE WITNESS: Because they have built-up 14 resistance so your impact on their lives is permanent. 15 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Johannessen, 16 your time is up. Would you conclude your remarks, please? 17 THE WITNESS: I will conclude quickly. 18 4,000 -- we have 10,360 Texas youth could be able to 19 maintain medical coverage through the CHIP program, and 20 400,000 mental health shifts could be realized. After 21 hearing what you have heard today, there has been a lot of 22 emotion. A lot of emotion on my part, everybody's part, but 23 I think Professor Alford really got to the crux of the 24 matter. You know right now that if you go with this 25 proposal it is going to end up in the courts. It's going to

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Page 601 1 run at least $1.7. Legally, it's going to cost $17 million 2 and it is going to end up in court for four or five years. 3 If you have $17 million, let's provide medication for people 4 who are living with AIDS. Let's provide children's health 5 insurance program for Texas youth. Let's provide for those 6 things that we need to do now, not get into political 7 wrangling because you don't want to do the work necessary. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: That's conclusion. 9 Mr. Grusendorf? 10 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I couldn't help 11 noticing you had a stack of little green flyers in your hand 12 there. I am wondering if I could talk you out of two or 13 three of those. 14 THE WITNESS: I am glad you brought that up. 15 There are some things I wasn't able to say. I would like to 16 make this a part of the official record. There is a few 17 things I would like to have said. I would like this be made 18 part of the official record. 19 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: I have a couple 20 of them. Has it been made a part of the official record? 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No, sir. 22 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Let's do that. 23 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, very 24 much. Barrett Sundberg. 25 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: In light of some

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Page 602 1 testimony that Mr. Hicks gave, I would like to offer an 2 apology to the Committee and this audience. I asked 3 Mr. Alford some questions under the belief he was here as 4 all of the witnesser were. I didn't know at the time he was 5 a paid witness by the Democrats and by the Texas or the U.S. 6 Congressional Delegation, and for that reason -- and he 7 didn't put it on his witness affirmation, nor did he testify 8 in the affirmative to that as the other two paid Democrat 9 witnesses did. If he did I must have missed that. We will 10 look to the record, but any way I owe an apology to those 11 who suffered the longer testimony as a result of my 12 questions. 13 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Sundberg. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, I 15 would like to ask something here. What do you mean 16 "suffered"? So you think that they suffered? It was 17 okay -- it was okay as a witness for you to ask him 18 questions, but now that you know that he is no longer 19 working -- 20 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: Suffered as I used in 21 that context is not a communication of pain inflicted. It's 22 a word that says -- 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Says what? 24 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: There was no pain 25 inflicted. I didn't use it in like suffered in like

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Page 603 1 suffering from an illness or suffering pain. Only to the

2 extent that the word I used was in the context that I used

3 it at that time, I used it in an antiquated use of the word.

4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Sundberg.

5 BARRETT SUNDBERG

6 Yes, sir. Honorable Chairman, honorable members, my name is

7 Barrett Sundberg. I hope to present today a non-partisan

8 position on redistricting. I come to you as a patriot. My

9 ancestors risk their lives to create this country seven

10 generations ago. My ancestor, Private Daniel Lee fought in

11 the Revolutionary War. In my view, he's a hero who fought

12 directly for this system of government for which he fought.

13 Redistricting always draws attention away from the people's

14 business and into partisan squabbles. The writers of the

15 U.S Constitution instructed the census should be conducted

16 every ten years. Normally restricting has been done every

17 ten years. That's the wisdom of the founding fathers. The

18 damage from partisan struggles has been limited which has

19 allowed this country to achieve its current greatness

20 Redistricting now would change all that. It would put

21 this great nation in legislative decay due to partisan

22 squabbling. We have already redistricted in this state

23 following the 2000 census. What has happened is now the

24 other side has attempted to take advantage of a small shift

25 of power between one election and the next. It sets a very

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Page 604 1 bad precedent if every shift of power in a state creates a

2 new fight over redistricting. When will the bickering ever

3 stop if every election shifts the districts and puts

4 redistricting back on the block, and this could happen

5 again, and again, and again, and this could happen in every

6 single state, and that's not bad for Republicans. That's

7 not bad for Democrats. That's bad government.

8 Honorable Chairman, honorable members, the eyes

9 of history are upon this state from now until the end of the

10 decade. I urge you in the legislature to stand as patriots

11 against redistricting. Thank you.

12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you.

13 LICO REYES

14 I would like to thank the Committee for letting everybody

15 speak. I know that this was a very long day. I am

16 especially offering kudos to our heroic Court Reporter who

17 has gone for many hours without any time off, and he's due a

18 really good meal.

19 Now, just to start off, Map 1180 I would like henceforth to

20 be known as an abomination for future reference so we don't

21 have to point to this one or that one, and the problem about

22 being one of the last ones on the list is that everything

23 had been said 500 times, so the only thing that I could

24 think of to work on this is to summarize.

25 So first of all the cost. Enough said. The foundation of

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Page 605 1 why this match is coming into place is because the

2 Republican Party feels that they deserve five more seats in

3 the U.S. House districts. Now, those bunch of numbers

4 running through, I am going to only approximate a lot of

5 these to make life easier for everybody, but in 2002 about

6 35 percent of the voting population turned out. Considering

7 that a large number of those were swing voters or whatever,

8 for some reason the Republican Party feels that if anybody

9 votes Republican they were Republican, period, and that they

10 are branded Republican. But just taking that into account,

11 let's say, okay, anybody that votes Republican in 2002 was a

12 Republican voter and that about 60 percent voted Republican

13 in 2002. That's why they got the majority. They had all of

14 the House and got the entire state government.

15 Well, if you take 60 percent of the 35 percent of the

16 people that actually showed up and voted, that's about

17 21 percent of the population, and it was mentioned earlier

18 that they are making a statement that the Republicans

19 deserve more seats because one out of five Texans votes

20 Republican. This is specious reasoning and for the

21 honorable Mr. Raymond, specious reasoning is when you

22 rationalize yourself to a desired result

23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I knew that.

24 THE WITNESS: Imagined you did. You probably

25 deal with that a lot. So it's just it doesn't make a lot of

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Page 606 1 sense and I really think that's the majority of the reason 2 that abomination exists. It's simply Tom DeLay's version of 3 political hard ball to try to eliminate some of the 4 opposition Democrats he has to deal with right now, and 5 pretty much to force everybody else to tow the line. It's 6 political posturing. At best it's going to cost the state 7 of Texas a considerable amount of time and lot of bad will 8 in process just for what is considered political expedience 9 by Republican majority in the House, and that's just not 10 valid. 11 I had this more together but I am a little 12 dazed like everybody else here. Somebody can explain to me 13 how this extreme form of gerrymandering actually serves us 14 well when they can eliminate the Honorable Lloyd Dogget. 15 How does it really serve the State of Texas just to have the 16 freshman Republicans put in. It doesn't make any sense. 17 And the proponents for the restricting claim that drawing 18 the lines to consolidate the local communities it builds -- 19 had this much better thought out until I started getting a 20 little tired. You are building safe seats. Now, the 21 purpose of safe seats is that these guys are not expecting 22 any opposition. Well, in a democracy I like to have 23 choices. What good is a vote if you don't have any choice 24 in that district. If you are building safer seats for 25 everybody in the State of Texas, that means nobody is going

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Page 607 1 to run against them because there is too much opposition. 2 It just diminishes the actual choice that each voter gets. 3 If you are going to go and build these 4 gerrymandered districts, I might suggest you take the 5 machines that built this map, take out the party 6 affiliation, and I would be willing to bet a majority of 7 these things are not going to come out 300-miles long and a 8 yard wide. If these are apportioned by population, a 9 checker board pattern of power base will fall out, but these 10 three won't be open to criticism by either party. This is 11 based on the notion and a consideration that redistricting 12 should be considered by population solely. If you want to 13 add race into it, that's fine. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Reyes, you are 15 getting close. 16 THE WITNESS: The final thing is to the 17 Killer D's, next time you go to New Mexico, you got friends 18 there. Thank you, very much. John Loza of the city of 19 Dallas, deposition of the Deputy Mayor Pro Tem would like to 20 be put in the record. He is against redistricting. 21 Mr. Robert Grangely from Dallas, Texas would like to put in 22 the record that he is against redistricting. And Macalina 23 Webb from Hidden Glenn in Dallas wants to be put in the 24 record that she is against redistricting. 25 Do you have any further people that have

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Page 608 1 anything or anything that you want to put in the record, 2 Mr. Raymond? 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: No, I don't. Do you 4 Miss Hodge? 5 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Vernon. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I would like to -- 7 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman, we 8 went -- here's one of the people that have asked me to 9 testify. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would you come 11 forward? State your name. 12 EUGENE RICE 13 My name is Eugene Rice. Dallas, Texas. 14 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Mr. Rice. 15 THE WITNESS: I don't give a twit one way or 16 another about the redistricting, except that I want to see 17 this farce that goes on every ten years eliminated, and it 18 could be done very simply by using geography and population, 19 and I have a plan. I will just read to you what I sent to 20 Governor Perry. "Dear Governor Perry, the time has come to 21 put an end once and for all to this ten year farce we call 22 redistricting. With your leadership we can replace 23 gerrymandering, a word with a negative connotation, with 24 Perrymandering, a word that will have a positive 25 connotation, when we adopt the plan that I will send you if

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Page 609 1 you request it. The plan will benefit you, your Party, and 2 your State of Texas." I sent this to the Governor by 3 registered mail, return receipt. It was picked up by a 4 courier and I have yet to hear from him, and it's a plan 5 that if we have a plan that can be used once every ten 6 years, that it's fair to everybody, there is no human 7 factors involved in this thing. It's just it's fair. So 8 many district have so many populations depending on how 9 many, what the population is and what the allotment of 10 districts we have from the Congress, and these could be put 11 in the district by using computers. That's all I have to 12 say. And one other thing. If you want fair elections, you 13 have a ballot with no Party affiliation there. It has to be 14 no straight party voting and you would have to vote for 15 every person you want to have in there, and it should be 16 where you have several ballots for the same district so that 17 it's rotated so you never know. You can't say to somebody 18 go into the booth and check number one at the top, or number 19 two, or number three. You don't know what you are getting. 20 Then you get some intelligent voting. I thank you. 21 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you, 22 Mr. Rice. Thank you for your testimony. Mr. Raymond, you 23 have any concluding remarks? 24 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Are we done? You 25 read all...

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Page 610 1 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: I would like to ask 2 the Committee's permission to put these in the official 3 record as registered for or against the Bill. 4 THE WITNESS: Without objection. 5 REPRESENTATIVE VERNON: Sir, you've given me 6 the opportunity. I didn't want to interfere with anybody 7 else. I will be very brief, but my mother asked me to read 8 her letter into the record. She was here the better part of 9 Saturday. I am going to just read the first two or three 10 paragraphs. 11 As I said earlier, she always starts 12 everything with thank you. So she thanks you, Mr. Chairman, 13 and members of the Committee for your time in conducting the 14 hearing. So she says "I am Mae Vernon Labron. I live in 15 Benbrook. I spent many years as an elementary school 16 teacher. I tell you this because I want you to realize that 17 through the years I have encountered many playground 18 bullies. All boys have some common characteristics. They 19 think they are smarter than anyone everyone else. They 20 should be the leader and everyone else should do their 21 bidding. In other words, bullies are very egotistical. 22 Unfortunately, class bullies grow up to be adult bullies. 23 We have one representing Texas in Washington. A Congressman 24 from Texas who believes the legislators in Texas are too 25 stupid to be able to do anything directly. He thinks he is

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Page 611 1 the only one that can lead them the correct way. Not only 2 will he tell them what to do, he will insist by sending them 3 maps to make their task more simple. This Congressman has 4 an ego the size of Texas." She goes on to say several 5 different ways you could and should just say no. Thank you 6 for accepting this letter. 7 Here is a second letter from a constituent of 8 mine for the record as well. 9 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Thank you. 10 We have this many witness affirmations I 11 would estimate to be well over a hundred that showed that 12 they did not want to testify. And then we have an equal 13 amount of testimonies that no one was present or they have 14 not sent up a request to the Chair. That have either left 15 or no longer -- that have left. They are not here to give 16 testimony. Committee, I would ask the Committee's 17 permission to enter those into the official record. 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: No objection, Mr. 19 Chairman. 20 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I don't have a 21 question. We are almost through, Mr. Chairman. At the 22 beginning of the meeting you said you would pass the gavel 23 to all of the Committee's members. You passed the gavel 24 numerous times to Mr. Grusendorf and Mr. Isett. I just want 25 to ask you if that was an oversight or intentional?

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Page 612 1 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: It was an 2 oversight. I tried to chair the whole thing. 3 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I have been 4 overlooked before. 5 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: Mr. Chairman, may 6 I just make a couple of comments? 7 I want to thank the people that stayed so 8 late and I want to particularly thank the people that stayed 9 late for the last few hours. We have had a lot of civil 10 discussion and we haven't had a lot of hollering and 11 interruption when witnesses appeared. I appreciate that. 12 And we have had -- you know, that's what this process is 13 supposed to be about is discussion of the issues, debate of 14 issues, and people have a right to have different opinions 15 on all legislative issues, and I appreciate that. And I 16 appreciate you-all being, you know, nice and diplomatic, 17 unlike this morning. That was a little disconcerting under 18 the circumstances. But also I want to assure you a number 19 of people have talked about following -- follow your 20 conscience and do the right thing, and I assure you that my 21 vote is going to be what I think is the right thing. 22 Whether or not it's exactly what you would 23 have done if you had been in my place or not is immaterial. 24 Please be assured that I am going to follow my conscious and 25 I am going to do the right thing on redistricting. That's

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Page 613 1 part of what the process down here is about. I mean part of 2 it also is to listen to the debate and listen to the 3 arguments on both sides. And I think the latter part of 4 this hearing has been worthwhile in that regard. 5 UNIDENTIFIED AUDIENCE MEMBER: Are you-all 6 going to take a vote? 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: The subcommittee is 8 not going to take any kind of official vote. You're welcome 9 to ask each one of us that in person. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman. 11 Mr. Chairman. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Yes, sir. 13 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: I would like to make 14 a motion that the subcommittee recommend to the full 15 Committee that we do not take up redistricting. 16 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is there an 17 objection to that motion? 18 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: That we not take 19 up redistricting? I think we have a responsibility to 20 debate it. I think we have an obligation. It's not our 21 decision. The Governor has called the legislature into 22 special session. We are going to debate redistricting. 23 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Chairman -- 24 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: That's the 25 Governor's prerogative. He made the decision to call the

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Page 614 1 legislature in to debate that issue. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Mr. Grusendorf, you 3 are a member of a select committee on school finance. I 4 would guess that at the end of your hearing you are going to 5 make some recommendation, so it's customary. It's certainly 6 not out of order for a subcommittee to vote on making a 7 recommendation. 8 I am making the motion that after all this 9 testimony that we recommend to the full committee that we do 10 not proceed any further with redistricting. That's 11 absolutely in order. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Our report on this 13 Committee will be the official record this gentlemen here is 14 taking and everyone of these witness affirmation that have 15 been given. That will be our official report to the 16 Committee. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Are you going to ask 18 for an objection to my motion? 19 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I'm not going to 20 recognize the motion. I do not think it's an appropriate 21 motion. 22 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: It's not appropriate 23 for us to make a recommendation? 24 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: I do not know of 25 anything in the rules that governs the Committee that makes

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Page 615 1 that an appropriate motion. 2 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: In Committee every 3 time that we have a Bill, we vote if it's moved forward. 4 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have no Bill 5 before us. 6 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We have an issue 7 before us. 8 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have no Bill 9 before us to act on. 10 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: We have an issue 11 before us. 12 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: We have an issue. 13 We have no Bill before to us to act on. 14 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: A recommendation or 15 something on redistricting would be appropriate and in order 16 since the subject of the hearing is whether or not to 17 redistrict. Not which plan, or which map, or -- whether or 18 not to redistrict was the official posted notice as to what 19 the subject of the meeting would be. The subject of the 20 meeting was whether or not we should redistrict and that's 21 what people testified on, whether or not to. 22 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Would your motion 23 be that we recommend to the full committee that we do not 24 redistrict? 25 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: That's the subject

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Page 616 1 of the meeting. 2 THE WITNESS: I wanted to reword the 3 question. I will be happy to take a vote. 4 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Tell me -- my 5 wording. I move that we recommend to the full committee not 6 to do congressional redistricting. 7 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Is there objection 8 to the motion? Clerk will call the role on motion. 9 MR. SHEWMAKER: Marchant. 10 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: No. 11 MR. SHEWMAKER: Grusendorf. 12 REPRESENTATIVE GRUSENDORF: No. 13 MR. SHEWMAKER: Isett. 14 REPRESENTATIVE ISETT: No. 15 Mr. SHEWMAKER: McClendon. 16 MR. SHEWMAKER: Raymond. 17 REPRESENTATIVE RAYMOND: Aye. 18 REPRESENTATIVE MARCHANT: Result of the vote 19 is three no's, and one absent, and one yes, and motion 20 fails. The subcommittee on redistricting is adjourned. 21 22 (Meeting adjourned 1:38 a.m.) 23 24 25

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Page 617 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 I, Curtis High, a Certified Shorthand 3 Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do hereby 4 certify that the above and foregoing contains a true 5 and correct transcription of the Public Hearing, 6 taken on the 28th day of June, 2003, and that the 7 witness hereinbefore named was first duly sworn as 8 provided by law. 9 10 GIVEN UNDER MY HAND AND SEAL OF OFFICE on 11 this day of , 2003 12 13 Curtis High, Texas CSR 484 14 Expiration Date: 12/31/04 600 North Pearl, Suite 640 15 Dallas, Texas 75201 (214) 220-2449 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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