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DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM IOMPAR AGUS CUMARSÁID JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS Dé Céadaoin, 30 Meán Fómhair 2015 Wednesday, 30 September 2015 The Joint Committee met at 10.40 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Timmy Dooley, Senator Sean D. Barrett, Deputy Dessie Ellis, Senator Terry Brennan, Deputy Tom Fleming, Senator Eamonn Coghlan, Deputy Brendan Griffin, Senator Paschal Mooney. Deputy Michael McCarthy, Deputy Helen McEntee, Deputy Michael Moynihan, Deputy Patrick O’Donovan, DEPUTY SEÁN KENNY IN THE CHAIR. 1 Estimates FOR PUBLIC SERVICES 2015: VOTE 31 - Transport, TOURISM AND Sport The joint committee met in private session until 11.20 a.m. Estimates for Public Services 2015: Vote 31 - Transport, Tourism and Sport Vice Chairman: I welcome the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Paschal Donohoe to discuss the mid-year review of the Estimates for transport, tourism and sport - Vote 31. The purpose of this morning’s session is to engage with the Minister for Transport, Tour- ism and Sport in order to assist the committee in undertaking a mid-year review of the position on outputs and expenditure with particular reference to performance measurements in regard to Vote 31 for the year ended 31 December 2015. The Minister will assist the committee in its consideration of improvements that may be desirable regarding the performance information included in the unabridged Estimate. The Minister might also brief the committee on the emerging position in order that this committee might participate in the 2016 Estimates discussions in advance of allocations being finalised. The committee welcomes the Minister. I draw the attention of the witnesses to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if they are directed by the Chairman to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamen- tary practice to the effect that where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise that any submission or opening statements made to the committee will be published on the committee website after this meeting. Members are reminded of the long-standing par- liamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Can the Minister indicate the position on the New Zealand guidance in setting output based performance targets? The committee understands that had been the basis for discussion between the Department staff and the committee for the last number of months. I refer to the guidance included as appendices to the briefing materials circulated. The committee understands that the Department may have issues with how the guidance is being applied to the performance mea- sures it has included in the Estimates. Can it be established whether the Department has issues with the guidance itself? Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Paschal Donohoe): No we do not. The table to which the Vice Chairman refers is the departmental output table of 2015. It lists all of the different outputs by all elements of my Department. I believe an evaluation has been done as to whether they are specific, measurable or relevant. My own observation is, as Minis- ter heading into the next Estimates process, that I believe there is an opportunity to make them even more output focused. I will give the committee a small example of what I mean. If we were to look at the figures on the sustainable development of airports or the outputs in public transport in the future, we need to have figures on the number of people who use public trans- port or the number of people who use different airports. 2 JOINT COMMITTEE ON Transport AND Communications I will now turn to the figures on tourism. We are increasingly moving towards looking at the spend by tourists to Ireland, alongside the numbers of tourists. These are the measures the De- partment and I use to evaluate our performance. It would be helpful for the coming 12 months if those things converged with the measures in the Estimates process. Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank the Minister and I welcome his statement in which he and his Department accept the necessity for improved performance output around documentation and I welcome the willingness to try to improve. If we as a Parliament can work with Depart- ments like the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport we will all benefit in the long run. Regarding the output measures and the associated targets to be included in the Estimates, in some cases they are not specific enough to be meaningful. The Minister addressed this when he spoke about the airport example. I suggest the implementation of recommended actions in accordance with stated milestones. While that is aspirational, it needs to be contextualised. On the plan to continue work on smarter travel projects, it becomes very difficult to measure what the output ultimately is in that regard. I am not being critical and I do not look for a direct an- swer other than an engagement that says this is where we need to get to. The desire to develop the Wild Atlantic Way discovery points is a vision which becomes difficult to measure in terms of the output. It would help if there was a more specific aim, for example, to develop four of the Wild Atlantic Way discovery points over the next 12 months. Or, regarding smarter travel, it would help to identify two or three projects which could be delivered within a timeframe. It may make it easier, for those of us on this side of the table, to hold the Minister and his Department to account on where things fall between the cracks. If we can get this right over a period of time it will serve the country better in the long run because it will mean that all of us are more keenly focused on how money is spent if it does get spent. The Minister will not be left in the difficult situation at the end of the year of having money left over from various projects that he is then in a position to spend on other pet projects in the run-up to an election. Deputy Paschal Donohoe: There is fairness in what the Deputy has said, however some of the measurements that are included go in the direction of being very output focused. I draw the committee’s attention to section C of the Estimates and the issue of ports. It indicates the number of ports and seafarers to be inspected. If one looks at section D and sports it states that Sport Ireland legislation is to be published, and there are measures about the distribution of funding for local authority swimming pools. These are specific proposals. There is opportu- nity to make more progress on making them even more output focused on elements that are not related to legislation because legislation is binary in that it is either published or it is not, it is either enacted or it is not. However, we can track how many people come to Ireland, how they spend when they come here and the duration of their stay. These are the sorts of data that Tour- ism Ireland tracks and upon which it reports back to my Department. It is in all of our interests that we include these data when one looks at how my Department and I perform. Deputy Timmy Dooley: I thank the Minister. I will suggest to the Chairman in due course that there be an opportunity for a sub-committee of this committee, made up of the spokesper- sons for the various parties, to engage with the Department officials and to go through in more detail some of the issues that arise and to find a more common platform. Today is a welcome development but it might be better to sit down and agree some framework for the future so that there is no ambiguity at the end of this process. The Minister might be Taoiseach by next year. Deputy Paschal Donohoe: My objective is to remain here. 3 Estimates FOR PUBLIC SERVICES 2015: VOTE 31 - Transport, TOURISM AND Sport Deputy Timmy Dooley: Whoever----- Deputy Paschal Donohoe: That is all I am worried about. The Deputy is far more likely than I to achieve that objective. Deputy Timmy Dooley: I do not know about that. The Minister must have different polls than I have. That is a suggestion that we might look at that so that the committee could engage more fully in a more convivial environment rather than across a committee room, and agree the template for the long term. Deputy Paschal Donohoe: I think that is fair enough. I believe that some of the measure- ments here do what the Deputy and the committee want. What the committee has asked of the Department is fair. I believe that other measurements could be clearer. That is my responsibil- ity. There are parts which I would push back on the committee. If I look at tourism, measure- ment number one is to agree the 2013 business plan for implementation by tourism agencies.