CLEVELAND (CLEVE) MCCARTY. Born 1933.

TRANSCRIPT of OH 1336V A-B.

This interview was recorded on June 8, 2005, for the Maria Rogers Oral History Program. The interviewer is Robyn Crispe. The interview is also available in video format, filmed by Liz McCutcheon. The interview was transcribed by Catherine Jopling and Carol Jordan.

NOTE: The interviewer’s questions and comments appear in parentheses. Added material appears in brackets.

ABSTRACT: Cleveland McCarty, a pioneer in rock climbing and co-author of High Over Boulder, talks about his love for climbing (both rock climbing and mountaineering) since his boyhood days in Boulder. He shares stories of some of his more memorable climbs along the Front Range and elsewhere.

[A].

00:00 (This is Robyn Crispe. I’m interviewing for the Maria Rogers Oral History Program of the Carnegie Branch Library for Local History. The date is Wednesday, June 8, 2005. The narrator is Cleveland McCarty, and we’re at his home at 315 Arapahoe in Boulder, Colorado.)

(So, thank you for having this interview with us, and I’ll start by asking when and where were you born.)

I’m a native, born in Denver, Colorado, and when—1933.

(When did you move to Boulder?—What brought you here?)

I went to school here, so that would’ve been in the ‘50s—‘53 or so. And then I went in the Air Force. I went to dental school in St. Louis at Washington University and then the Air Force, and back to Denver for a year, and finally in ‘66 bought a home here, started a practice. So—

(How long were you in the Air Force?)

I was in there almost four years—was in Germany.

(Stationed there the whole time?)

Excuse me?

(Stationed there the whole time?)

Yes, I was.

01:00 (So, your main interest has been climbing, for a big part of your life, and—)

Uh-huh.

(—and when did that start for you? When was the first time you were grabbed by the idea of climbing?)

The first time I started to grab the bark on a cottonwood tree out in the backyard. [chuckles] I could go right up it, and no one else could. I thought, “Well, this is unique— I have an ability to do something none of the neighbors did"—or wanted to! And so, actual rock climbing started back up at either Cheley Camp or down in Colorado Springs at the Garden of the Gods. I’m not sure which came first, but it was early on—about thirteen years old.

(And when you started climbing trees, and—)

Oh, it was long before then, [chuckles] yeah—

(But the rock climbing came when you were about thirteen years old?)

Yeah. Jungle gyms, all those kinds of—I don’t know, something instinctual about climbing things that I happened to have, and so off I went and just climbed everything. Just—born to climb.

(Was climbing a sport like it is known today, at the time?)

The transformation of that sport is fantastic—incredible as to what has transpired in the last thirty or forty years. It astounds me. It’s frightening to see some of the new magazines that have come out. It used to be in a magazine, people would—you could see them going up things that had forty-five degrees, and that would be an astounding photograph, like one on the Third Flatiron, but as years go by, the verticality of these photographs have gotten more steep. And now, people are on overhangs, and so, just the covers of magazines alone tell you something about what’s happened in the sport. Huge.

(Did you know other people, say when you’re a teenager, and you had this instinct to start climbing, did you know other people that were—that you connected with that were also interested in that kind of climbing—)

Hard to find. Hard to find.—Very rare.

(How old were you when you started recognizing that there were other people out there that were climbing?)

I was about sixteen, I think. Nowadays people get started well before then, but then— there wasn’t anybody else, and—now and then we could locate a person, either in school or somewhere that was interested in doing it. None of us were great athletes at it. We just had a desire to go up—that was it.

(How did you decide where you would climb?)

Well, the proximity of—below the age of sixteen, you needed a driver—you didn’t have a drivers license, so whoever—wherever you were and where the nearest rock was— determined where you were going to go climb. An then after sixteen, then we started expanding our interest—I say ‘our’—whoever I could trap into going with me [chuckles]—some really early excursions throughout the state. It wasn’t all local. It was throughout the state, basically. Things that attracted me as they do nowadays to people— the Maroon Bells—that photograph of those two bells—is really compelling. And so the result of all this, we’d travel over dusty, dirty—It was Independence Pass at that time, with no railings. Went over on a Model-A Ford one time—a lot of rudimentary hours were spent. But wonderful.

(Did you run into other people that were mountaineering and climbing, or were you pretty much by yourself with your friends when you’d go out there?)

Pretty much solo; pretty much just an individual group. Now and then we’d run into a Colorado Mountain Club excursion, and they were formulating some adventures up in the high country. That was the only group. I felt very fond of them. They were on Josephine at the time—14th and Josephine in Denver. That was where their office was. For me, to go in there was like going in to the White House. I was so impressed by some of the people that were older than I, and had had some wonderful experiences. I’d trap them into sharing some of their climbs.

(And so they were a big inspiration for you?)

Yes, the Colorado Mountain Club was really, for me, a very important formative group.

05:20 (Was there a difference between mountaineering per se and rock climbing, or at that time, was it all kind of in the same genre?)

It’s hard to think back that far, as to what we thought of it. I think rock climbing definitely was pointed toward pinnacles, things that came to a point of some kind, which we have a few around Boulder. And mountaineering of course—things like Quandary and Evans and Long’s Peak—without thinking of the east face of Long’s Peak—but big mountains. Big, tall—they didn’t have to be fourteeners. They could be twelve-thousand footers, and on down. There was a separation between the two. Usually they co-joined somewhere. There’d be a little rock on the way up, some place. But individual rock climbs were—yeah, we pointed toward some of the pinnacles. I can name them, like the Maiden. Yeah.

(And the Maiden is in Eldorado Springs?)

It’s between here and Eldorado Springs. Yeah.

(Had a lot of people climbed that, at that point, when you—)

Interesting. You need to interview one of them: Stan Black, Mark Taggert are people that were implemental [sic]—in fact they did the first ascent, and they’re still around here somewhere.

(And you’re still friends with them?)

Oh sure. I see Mark every Friday at Rotary Club. First ascent, imagine. They’re guys that are still active. Mark’s done the 54 I think, again, almost.

(The 54 fourteeners?)

Yeah.

(Is that right?)

Yeah.

07:00 (When did Boulder really become the Mecca for rock climbing? At what point did all these people start kind of converging in this area?)

In the ‘60s. That was a major time of transformation—in Boulder at least. And I have to say we take some responsibility in that, in having published the book High Over Boulder which brought the attention to Eldorado Springs and the Flatirons and local rock up the [Boulder] Canyon.

(And High Over Boulder is a book that you—)

Yeah, Pat Ament and I did it together.

(What was the inspiration for that?)

That’s a great story. Do you have a moment?

(We have all the moments that you have.)

Somewhere in 1952, ‘53—yeah ‘53—two of us went out to do the Maiden and we’d seen in Trail & Timberline—which was the Colorado Mountain Club magazine. They had done an issue on the first ascent of the Maiden, and we had that issue with us, or at least in memory. We had learned that the rappel off the backside was about a hundred and ten feet, which is an exciting rappel. It’s all free, and you don’t touch anything; you’re hanging out, and it’s the most exciting rappel, except for the desert rappels, that I’ve ever been on! And so we got up—we thought we got up on top of the Maiden—it was a rock spire by Eldorado Springs—we got on the summit of this thing, and on the descent, the rappel, it was too short. Our rope was too short, so we were left hanging out in space, or close to it, and it happened to be the Matron we were on. And I thought, “Oh my goodness,” and my co-leader, co-climber, had to climb back up to the top of the Matron and then we went back down the east side of it, and then we thought—I thought—“Hey, there’s got to be a guide to this whole area somewhere,” so that got me started. And Pat, I’m not sure what got him started, but he was a lot younger than I was when we started doing this. That really got me interested in getting a guidebook out.

09:13 (Who was the person you were with on that—)

His name was Tony Mueller. Antoine Mueller became well known as an architect in Seattle. Yeah, after that. We were just college kids.

(So that was your experience with wanting to start a guidebook, and then you just hooked up with Pat later?)

Yeah, that’s right. I was from college age down, and he was in junior high. I think he was at Baseline at the time. And so we hooked up together. Thanks to his aggressiveness, we put this thing out.

(How did you write a book? How did you decide what was going to go into that book, and who it would be geared toward?)

My orientation for that book was more on the trails and the summits—local summits— Green Mountain and the Mesa Trail, which was indistinguishable at the time—you couldn’t really follow it very well—with exception that they had little tin can lids on trees—have you ever been on the Mesa Trail?

(I have.)

Then you know it’s well groomed now, but at the time, it really was pretty much unused. So you’d follow little tin can lids on trees, at least for sections of it. So my orientation was really more on the easier climbs and on the trails, and I thought that would have a broader interest for people. Pat’s interest was rock climbing—that was it. In that sense it was a good pair because we could combine our capabilities and our interests together.

(Was that pretty much the first book that addressed the trails of that area?)

The first one of any depth that was comprehensive. And when we say comprehensive, it didn’t go up to Mount—we call—Sanitas [accent on first syllable]—some people say San-ee-tas [accent on second syllable]—but that was not even included. Nowadays, it’s [chuckles] it’s a running path up there, but at that time, it really wasn’t included in High Over Boulder very much.

(Have you published other books?)

No. That was it.

(Magazine articles?)

Some. But most of them were professional journal stuff. Unrelated to mountaineering. I should, I could, but I haven’t yet.

11:30 (Yeah, it’d be a good thing! When you were learning to climb and cutting your teeth on this skill, did you have any mentors?)

Absolutely. Robert Ormes. He was the author of the first guide to the fourteen thousand foot peaks in Colorado. And he was an instructor of mine at a school I was at in Colorado Springs. So he took me to the Garden of the Gods, and that’s why I mentioned that a bit earlier. And my first climbs that were of any great significance to me were down there, in the Garden. So yeah, he was my mentor. I even stayed at his house a few times. And he had done, naturally, and knew all the fourteeners, and when I went out to do them, I’d consult with him on the approaches and some things like that.

(How much older was he than you?)

Well, I’d say, you know, I thought he was real old. He was probably 38 when I was about 20, [chuckles] and I thought “Whoa, how can he do it?” [laughs]. I was so impressed. We’d met up in the Tetons one time—that trip was unbelievable—we had sixteen of us in the group, and I had the last rope. There were fifteen, excuse me, fifteen of us. That would be three people on five ropes. I had the last rope as a leader, and by the time the first rope—there’s a ledge called—well, what’s the name—I forget it right now—but it’s a major ledge that comes around to the Exum Ridge they call it. And by the time he got his group on the summit, we’d gotten our group just around this ledge, starting on the major part of the climb. So we all ended up spending the night up at the upper saddle; none of us were prepared for that cold night. And so it was a rotation all night long—whoever got the outside froze for about fifteen minutes, and then we’d rotate over one another. These were young kids from the New Lincoln School in New York City. They were all fourteen or fifteen years old. We got off there and the rangers did not like this at all. [laughs]

(Did they know you were headed up there?)

[chuckles] I don’t know whether he signed in or not. He was the leader. Anyway, that was my fun friend Robert Ormes. Anybody that knew him would share my sheer joy in having known him. Such great humor; he was just fun to know.

(Did you know him for many years?)

Yeah, quite a long time. He passed away, I don’t know, maybe eight years ago or so.

(Were there other people in addition to him that you modeled yourself after?)

I’d say he was so significant, he’d be the one. Quite a bit older. He was famous for his climb on Ship Rock. There’s a picture in an old Saturday Evening Post of his climbing Ship Rock and having gone up a rib called Ormes' Rib, which is a little—arête. And he went up it, and he took a fall, and the name of the article—I’m sure it’s the Post—he fell and the piton bent, over like so, and the name of the article is “A Piece of Bent Iron.” It’s about a 1938, ’39—the first attempts on Ship Rock.

(And where is Ship Rock?)

It’s in New Mexico. Right near the Four Corners border.

(Oh, so the famous Ship Rock.)

That’s in Navajo country. Now it’s deemed spiritual and you’re not allowed to climb there. The Indians don’t want you up there; it’s got a lot of historic memories for them.

15:09 (So, you have had a few people who have influenced you. Have you been a significant influence on younger climbers that you have had a long-term relationship with?)

I can’t say that, because I don’t know who it is! I’m sure there must be some, but I don’t—other than my own family, I really can’t think. I’m sure I have, 'cause I used to be an instructor for the Rocky Mountain Rescue Group, and then at one time they were members with the Colorado Mountain Club, and they both had a climbing school, and so there are certainly people in that group that were impressed enough to continue on with mountaineering or climbing, rock climbing.

(How long were you involved with that group?)

I started out in the ‘50s and then came back and worked a little bit in the 60’s with them. I’d say up to six years or five years. Off and on. Some rescues; mostly training classes. And those were fun.

16:13 (There’s an article I read about you and your son taking a bicycle trip up to Long’s Peak, and climbing it. Can you tell that story?)

I don’t know what inspired me to do that, and I’m glad I’m not inspired that way now [laughs]. But at the time, it was a personal challenge—

(So it was your idea?)

Yeah, it was a personal challenge, and I thought, “Could you do that in one day from Boulder, and bicycle up there and come back in the same day, the same 24-hour period?” And I thought we could, and I thought “Yeah, we can do that.” But he was only twelve years old. And I was forty-four or something like that.

(And which son was this?)

It was Eric, the oldest. So we took off from Boulder at about two in the morning in the dark, dark of the night, and we had these little headlights on our bicycles, and went to Lyons and then up the South St. Vrain Highway. And then we decided to do the east face of Long’s Peak, up the Kiener['s] Route, they call it. And went up that, got to the top, and had the whole summit to ourselves. That’s rare, apparently, nowadays. No one gets a summit of Long’s Peak alone. We had it to ourselves, but it was getting late; it was around five in the afternoon. Came back down the Cable Route; we had some ropes and rappelled down that.

(And is that a technical climb, to come up and down the Kiener's Route?)

Kiener's, I think they call it technical, but it’s easy technical. It’s kind of, grade four I think. Maybe 5.1; it’s low. But it’s exciting, because it’s right over The Diamond which is that sheer-y side, and then going down the Cable Route was kind of fun. We got down to the ranger’s cabin at the very base—getting dark. It was about 8:00, and it was Memorial Day, or the day after Memorial Day. And then we still had that ride to get back to Boulder, and we wanted to get back before midnight because we wanted to do it within that 24-hour period of time. Our lights went out on the way down; we lost our batteries. It's the one thing I’d forgotten—I thought we had it all nailed; everything complete. And the lights went out. But my wife had come up in our old car, and she was able to get behind us with the headlights— somewhere near Lyons—was able to stay behind us and give us light to get back to Boulder. That was a great trip; it was a long one. The next day she said, “Oh, hey, you haven’t had enough? Let’s do something else!” So we did the little peak that’s right next to Long’s Peak, not Estes Cone—Estes Cone, is that it? Yeah.

(Or Meeker, or—so you went back?)

The next day I went back to do that, yeah.

(On your bikes?)

No, no, no, no, no [laughs]. No.

19:01 (Speaking of your family, who are the members of your family and what involvement do they have in rock climbing?)

Just really Eric was the one that I got out the most, with rock climbing. He got trapped by me. I just needed a partner, and he was really capable. So he could do—really do anything. And so we did a lot of climbs together at early ages. And then another son named Conrad, who was really strong—they both enjoyed the Pike’s Peak Marathon. I didn’t. I didn’t want anything to do with that fool crowd. But they did, and so we’d go up and go over there to do that. And Conrad eventually did all the fifty-four peaks in something like thirty-two days. He got interested in that—and he did that solo too. And then it went on down the line, and they all got up in the peaks, one way or another, every one of them did. Some more hesitatingly than others, but [chuckles]—

(How many kids do you have?)

There’s five boys, one girl.

20:10 (You mentioned Conrad doing the peaks in so many days. There’s another story about you being the first person to have climbed all the fourteeners within fifty-four days.)

That was my goal.

(Okay, how did that come about?)

That was a bet.

(Between—?)

I was a guide for the Mountain Recreation Department at CU; it was their department that held itself in the summertime, and a lot of people would come for summer school and utilize that department for their weekend climbing. Seven dollars for the weekend: all the food, tents, gear, equipment, the guides, for seven dollars. What a deal. Yeah, hard to beat. And off they went! And uh, I don’t know where we were—where were we on discussion right there? We’re talking about—what?

(The fifty-four peaks—somebody had bet you.)

The fifty-four peaks, well it was on one of those trips, somebody—I thought, “Well, we could—I think we—I could do all these in fifty-four days and uh—“

(And nobody had done it before, right?)

No one had, no. And he said “Nah, nah, you can’t do that. I’ll bet you fifty bucks.” [laughs] I took him up on it. I don’t think he’s ever paid me! [laughs]

(You’d better go find him!)

Got to go connect with him, yeah.

(That’s right! Did you do it right away, or was it a trip that you planned?)

No, it was a year later. I tried it twice. The first year I sprained an ankle by Aspen. It was on a peak called Grizzly Peak. It really was a significant sprain. It swelled up like that [gestures]. Had to quit. And so then I went back—I was really determined—so I went back the next summer. And I already had been fifteen peaks out, starting from north to go south, and then I thought, “Well, I’ll go back the next summer and start from south and go north, and hopefully cover new ground that I haven’t been on before.” And I got to Grizzly Peak the second time around and lost my car keys! Now Grizzly Peak has been resurveyed, and it’s no longer a fourteener! [laughs]

(Oh, no!)

So anyway, that mountain is—I don’t recommend it for anybody! [Laughs]

(Well how was your support with that? Did you have a friend drive you around?)

I was all alone.

(So you drove to all the areas, and just climbed them and then drove yourself to the next one.)

Mmm-hmm, that’s right. Except the first one where you take the little narrow gauge train in. That’s a trip, have you done that?

(Mmm-hmm)

Yeah, that’s a pretty trip. And when I did it, there wasn’t anybody else doing it. I mean there wasn’t anybody else in Chicago Lakes Basin except for a group from Los Alamos, New Mexico. So a group of three—three or four people were there. And I joined them on the climb of those Windom and Eolus and all.

(And that’s the train that comes from—)

And we had that valley to ourselves! And then they left early before I’d finished my climbing in there, and they’d gone on down the valley to get the train, and the next day I went down to get the train, and I was told the way to get it to stop was to get out in the middle of the tracks and wave a flag at it, and they’ll stop for you at a place called Animas Forks. Beautiful area. You’ve been there, you know.

(I have; it is! It’s one of my favorite parts of the state.)

Yeah, it is.

23:32 (I’d like you to talk a little bit about some of these pictures you have; you have some amazing pictures. And this one that is on the chair right here, it is just absolutely amazing. Could you tell the story about this trip and the picture?)

I don’t know how to shorten that story, but I’ll try.

(We have plenty of time. We want the long version.)

That story is taken on Mount Assiniboine.

(And where is that?)

It’s in British Columbia near Lake Louise, uh, Banff. Closer to Banff. And so it’s in the Canadian Rockies. And the person I was with, his name is Olav Suit [?]—he’d taken some other photographs. He became quite well known as a photographer. And he was filming for ABC’s Wide World of Sports. So he was doing a film on Assiniboine, and to get to it, at the time, was difficult. First of all, there was a dirt road you had to take, which was thirty miles of roughness, and it was really ragged road—maybe twenty miles. It seemed like that at least; maybe it was shorter. And then it was a backpack to get into the lake below Mount Assiniboine of some distance, and I just remember tuckering a bit just to get to the base of it. And then the next day we started up the mountain, and I was with my wife—my wife was with us at the time. And she took a fall getting up, traversing up toward the ledges below the main peak or the basin. This fall was significant because she broke her leg, and I had to put her on my back and rappel off from where she’d broken her leg. That was a trip, because I never had done that before. I’ve only seen pictures of people doing it, but we didn’t have any choice.

(Of rescuing, doing that kind of a rescue.)

Yeah, and so uh, got her down and finally got her to Banff. And then the orthopedic surgeon—and I put a splint on her right there—but she got fixed up in Banff. I came back to the area, met my friends; we did the climb, and that’s where that photograph was taken: just to the side of the main route on Mount Assiniboine. And we got to the top and it was a beautiful day, worked out fine. But it was traumatic getting to that point. Not because of the technical difficulty; it’s not that hard, but uh—so it has a story behind it.

(Because of the event with your wife.)

Yeah.

(How long did it take you to get down during that rescue? Rappelling her down?)

Just to rappel down to the base, I don’t know. It must have taken an hour-and-a-half or two. And then, getting her from the base over—there was a ranch back in there at the time, where we could rent a horse. Put her on a horse the next day after an excruciating night for her. And then I was able to get her out by the horse, so I don’t know how long. It went on into the evening quite late. I don’t remember. That’s something you don’t set your watch on! [laughs] “How long is this going to take to get out of here, dear?” [Laughs]

(In this picture, are you almost to the top, or relative to—)

Well, we’re in the midway about—I’d say, the upper— we’re about a third of it left. It’s just off to the side of the main route. So in that sense I staged it, because I wanted to get the backdrop in there, of the mountains, get a sense of the area a little bit. The main route is really a little bit to the right of that photograph.

(And from this perspective it looks pretty hairy; is it as precarious as it looks?)

I wanted to show off a little bit, and I found the littlest tiny ledge I could find for my feet. Make sure that people realized it was—this was minimal.

(Yes, that’s definitely the impression it leaves.)

Yeah, anyway it was fun. It was a beautiful day and all went well. It’s a great photograph. I didn’t take it! I was a sucker modeler!

27:45 (Oh, it’s wonderful. Well, getting back to the United States and Boulder, what have been some of your favorite climbs in this area?)

In the States?

(In the Boulder area.)

Boulder area—

(Or the Front Range.)

You know, when you say “favorite,” I have to look at that in a different way than most people would, because I have to look at memorable times. I have to look at the Third Flatiron as a favorite place, and the First. The First being the north ridge on it— get on that ridge and you overlook Boulder, and it’s a great panorama when you’re on that ridge. It’s not because it’s difficult, just because it’s exposed, and you have this lovely view from it.

The Third Flatiron is kind of like a track meet up there as far as moving along, you can move quickly. Although, on my first time up there, we didn’t really know how to do it properly and so it was a little bit scary for us. And there wasn’t any protection except— we couldn’t find—there is protection in there. But then they’ve driven in bolts. I don’t know if you’ve been on the Third Flatiron. They’ve got some bolts that were put in there years and years ago. And if you know where they are, that’s fine; if you don’t, then you have to scramble looking for protection because all we had were pitons. There really aren’t a lot of piton cracks up there. There are wonderful things for what they call cams, that jam their way into the rock. At that time we were not that skilled, we were climbing in tennis shoes or boots. We just weren’t that great at it and we felt a little slippery up there.

(Who were you with?)

A fellow named Dick Wink. We got to the top of it and then we had to figure out how to get out of there. You know, rappel—and unless you know where the routes are, it challenges you on how to figure out where the rappel routes are. There weren’t any indexes—there are now—some little plates up there that tell you which way to go. But at the time you just had to hope for the best.

(So how did you figure out how to get down?)

Uh, part of it’s luck. Part of it is just being very careful, checking where the rope went. Because we had these hundred and twenty foot ropes, and the second rappel is longer than a hundred and twenty feet if you don’t do it properly. There’s a little ledge called Friday’s Folly ledge, and if you go the wrong way, it’s probably a hundred and fifty feet, hundred and sixty feet. If you go the right route, it’s only ninety. And we did the— [chuckles] I’m here to talk to you because I found the right route! [chuckles]

(Good!)

So I’ve had a lot of experiences on the Third Flatiron, not because they’re technically so challenging, just because I’ve had such good relationships with people. I’ve loved to solo it, and it’s one of those fun things to do—because I know my way around, I can get up and down it without having to worry about either the ascent or descent.

(So, you’ve climbed it recently, it sounds like?)

Yeah, we celebrated Ernest Greenman’s hundred and some-odd ascents. He was a gentleman that is well-known in Boulder in the mountaineering circles. And I had interviewed him for our book. He was an older fellow when I had met him first; he was probably in his seventies, somewhere. And I was in my twenties. And I went and interviewed him with a Webcor [?] tape recorder, and I just found the tape. I don’t know if there’s anything on it or not, yet. I’m anxious to find out. And then I used that interview for our guidebook. But he was an inspiration for the Third Flatiron, really.

(So you said you just celebrated his hundredth ascent?)

Well, there was a plaque up there devoted to him at one time. And somewhere back in the renegade ‘60s, somebody had dug it out and flipped it off the Third. And so, fortunately a group of us got together and then put a new one back up. That was three or four years ago. I’ve been up there once since that time, that’s all.

(But that was the event, three or four years ago?)

That was the event, yeah.

(How special! And there were a lot of people, that—?)

Well, there were only three or four ropes, but—yeah.

32:08 (That’s just amazing. I want to talk a little bit about another part of your life. What is your occupation?)

I’m a dentist.

(And you’ve been a dentist for all of your life?)

Well, not all of it. But—

(For the most part?)

A good part of the educated part of it, yeah. That’s right, I have.

(So do you find there’s a correlation between your work as a dentist and your passion for climbing?)

So unrelated, except—what’s my saying—from cusp to the pit is like from the summit to the valley, in a microscopic way. I don’t know; it’s kind of bizarre thinking on somebody’s part that brought that to my—I think it’s on the back of one of our guidebooks, I describe it as somehow related, but they’re totally—it’s minuscule mountaineering when I travel across the top of a tooth. [laughs]

(Yeah.)

Other than that, no, mountaineering is just, totally unrelated. I can’t—

(Just a different activity for you?)

Yeah, it’s really extension of a lot of your limbs—physical activity. And it’s actually very intense, very focused. So rock climbing, yeah, very focused too, but in a different way. You know, talk about dentistry being limited to this little tiny area, whereas rock climbing is just—I think people would akin it to fly fishing in some ways whereas it totally, totally, obliterates all your other thinking for awhile. Your concerns, your day-to- day life is at ease on a stream and a fly rod. It’s true with a lot of adventure sports as well; it’s not just fly fishing. They’re all the same thing: they’re distracting away from your daily life. You know this.

(Yeah. How often do you get to climb now?)

I go every day. But some of it is very short. And they’re not technical, but usually something to take the edge off a day, just like some people will do their aerobics somewhere. I just enjoy taking a little time off and doing a trail. Maybe, I just find at least thirty minutes minimum is just right. If I can capture an hour, an hour and a half, I’ll do it. And so the Enchanted Mesa trail’s a favorite. There’s so many around Boulder.

(And do you still climb technical climbing?)

Well, now and then I’ll find a rock to hop over, but, I haven’t done anything hard technically for a while, yeah. I still have hopes to do that, yeah.

(That is great. Can we take a little break?)

[pause in recording]

35:06 (So let’s talk a little bit about some of these pictures. Could you tell us about this picture right here?)

Well, a couple things, it’s underexposed! [laughs] But other than that, it’s taken on the Devil’s Tower.

(In Wyoming?)

In Wyoming. What’s happening in there is—it doesn’t happen anymore—is that I’m putting a piton in on the left side of that picture. And I’m just glad I never fell on it because I know it would have pulled right out, because it was poor placement. But anyway, that’s what’s happening. Those were the ways we had to protect our climbs before. And that’s all we had.

(Could you describe just a little bit for people who aren’t familiar with this kind of rock climbing what a piton’s purpose actually is and how it—what’s the technology?)

Well, they’re pretty much out-of-bounds nowadays because they deface the rock. They scar—they’re little spikes of soft iron nowadays, or steel, nowadays. They’re driven into the crack, and as the crack expands, it grips the piton. Then in to that, you put a little snap link or carabiner into that, and the rope goes into the carabiner, so that as a person falls, then if it’s a good placement then there’s a minimal fall, it’s only a few feet if you’re just a little bit above the piton. If you’re six feet above it and you fall, you’re going to go twelve feet, plus whatever slack is in the rope. So those are the ways—that was the way—things were protected. One of the ways, at least. That’s all we had. So that’s pretty much ancient art, nowadays.

36:54 (This is in 1957?)

’57, yeah.

(Who were you climbing with on that trip?)

A guy named Carey Huston [?] and Ted Roulard [?]: friends of mine.

(Still friends?)

Yeah. I don’t see Ted anymore. He was teaching down a lot in southern Colorado at Western State. And Carey, I don’t see him at all anymore. You know what, I think he’s around, but he’s invisible [chuckles] if he’s around. I haven’t seen him. Yeah, so we’ve maintained a friendship but not a strong one, obviously.

(And was this just one route up the Devil’s Tower?)

Yeah, this is the famous Durance Route. That was the route used to rescue the person that parachuted on top the Devil’s Tower at one time, and then got his ropes all fouled up and couldn’t get down. And Jack Durance—famed climber—had to fly out to Colorado from Dartmouth, you know all the way from the East Coast. He and a few rescuers went up this particular route and rescued the parachutist on the summit. It’s a great story. So this is the route—this is the most traditional route on the mountain. And no one needs to protect it any more because it’s not that difficult, but we didn’t know.

38:21 (Speaking of routes, have you ever led any first ascents?)

A few.

(Are there any routes where you were the first—)

I don’t know how much leading I did. I would say we shared leads, because I was with people normally better than I, really. And the best climber was the leader. So, sure, some. But I don’t think there are—the only one that is in the desert, that has any significance to it at all. It’s called King Fisher; it’s in the Fisher Towers. It’s near Moab. And so, two of us did that, but we shared leads on that. So you ask me, “Did I do all the way?" No.

39:07 (But that was the first ascent?)

First ascent, yeah.

(Did you have anything to do with the naming of that?)

No, we had it named something else and somebody changed it. My partner’s name was Harvey Carter, who is really well known—distinguished desert climber. And he called it the Organ, for whatever reason. It looked like an organ, I guess. And then they—I think to the wisdom of the people that lived in the valley or near there—they transferred it to King Fisher. The Fisher Towers. If you ever go to Moab—have you ever been down there? You know where they are?

(Yes, yes.)

Ah, do you? So that same trip we did the second ascent of Castleton Tower, which is a real promontory. And the first ascent—something called the Rectory, which is right next to it. So we did that first ascent. So we did some desert climbing. And those were memorable because we were so alone. No one else in sight.

And the next—we tried to do one called the Totem Pole, and no one had ever tried that before. We were the first to try it. And this wasn’t with Harvey; it was with my—couple of other friends. It was this awesome spire, just goes up four hundred feet. The top part is sort of a block that overhangs on all sides, and looks like it could tumble off at any time. So we got up there into our—probably good luck—we were using expansion bolts so that you could just pull straight right out again with your hand, bare hand. So we had no protection. Went back there with two-by-fours that were carried in water pails to keep them wet, and they had a little rope hanging out the end of them, with a hole in it. We were going to bang these into the rock, and that was going to be our protection. And it was just luck; it was good luck that we didn’t get very far up there. We got maybe a quarter of the way up on these things—that thing. So um, we came down, and then the two of us went over and did one called the Ageth [?] Lawn, which is another big thing like Ship Rock. It’s not quite that large. But it’s a volcanic neck.

41:22 (In the Moab area?)

It’s south of Moab. It’s just—yeah, it’s near the border. And it might even be in Arizona. I think it is. Uh, did the second ascent of that, which was a trip too. That was spring—it was Easter. Easter Sunday we got to the top of it. But what astounds me is the quietness that we had. There was no one doing this. And if you got in trouble, there was no one to tell. You couldn’t say “Help, help!” you know, no cell phones or anything like that. So that had that adventure to it that we don’t even recognize nowadays. I think most people would say, “Uh, great, those aren’t that hard, you know.” Well, the environmental circumstance or the ambiance for those things was infinitely more subdued, more wild. I guess that’s it. You look across the desert there, and far as you can see there was no one.

(That’s amazing.)

We tried the Totem Pole. There was a young—one little Indian guy—Indian fellow— Native American—that was herding cattle or sheep, one or the other. And he lost his flock, and he—when we got down—he asked us, and he could speak some English, if we’d seen his flock from being up on the pole. And we said “yeah, they’re just around the corner.” So we did somebody a favor, and that’s the only people we ever did. And they were still living in their wicky-ups [?] and hogans. It was really an interesting time to be in the desert.

(And was that in the ‘50s?)

Yeah, mmm-hmm. Some of it got into the early ‘60s, and a couple of years into the—’61 or ’62.

(So the first ascents that you were describing were—)

That was in ’61 or 2. ’62 I think.

(What a privilege to be able to be in that area at that time.)

You know, we never really fully recognized it. You know we dropped some gear—we couldn’t find it—so we went to Moab, which was nothing of a town at all. It had no—I don’t know—I guess it was mining—industry at that time. We were looking for gear— couldn’t find it—so we had to drive all the way back to Aspen to get it. That was it.

(Now it’s quite the Mecca for climbing and mountain biking—)

Oh, for sure.

44:01 (I’d like to put up this picture. And tell us about this. [points to?] Now this says ‘Cleve McCarty, top of Mount Victoria, British Columbia.’)

Yeah, that’s another one of Olav Suit’s pictures that he took on our climb on Mount Victoria—

(The same trip as the other one?)

—which is the Assiniboine. It’s just north. This is right across—it’s the mountain directly, almost directly west from Lake Louise, if people are familiar with Lake Louise. And this is a spur that is near the summit, it’s on the way to the summit. We just went across it—because it made such a dramatic backdrop, uh, foreground as well. With the lake down the bottom there, and all the other peaks. And it’s a little smoky in there because there had been a fire down in Montana. But it was just one of those exciting places. We thought, “Well, what a great picture! Let’s go over there and get one.” [laughs] And we did!

45:02 (That’s beautiful. So it looks like we have a picture of—well, you describe this picture.)

Well, that’s the Capital Peak Knife-Edge Ridge. This was a Mountain Recreation Department from CU that had gone down there for the weekend to climb Capital Peak.

(And this is a Fourteener?)

It’s a Fourteener. And this little section is not far from the summit. And it’s regarded by some as a bit hostile, because it’s sharp and it drops off good many—hundreds of feet on either side. So a lot of people scoot across it, straddle it, when they go across. I don’t know how you did it, but a lot of people do. Some people grip one side and put their feet on the other. I was just walking across there with my hands in my pockets; I felt so secure with it.

(And this is you right here?)

Yes, and that’s that. That’s all I can tell you about it; it’s just an exciting place to be. You had to be balanced to do that, that’s for sure.

(That’s what I’m wondering. Did you have a sense of—were you nervous?)

I was focused. [chuckles] I wasn’t nervous; I knew I wasn’t going to fall. If I thought I’d fall, I’d be doing what most people do, and that’s to straddle it. I just felt terribly secure, that’s all.

46:34 (So you don’t have a real sense of—a fear of heights like a lot of people do?)

I like heights. I’m an “acrophile” if there’s such a word, I don’t think there is. I enjoy heights.

(You like the exposure?)

Yeah, I do. As long as I’m fairly well situated. I like a lot of air below.

(What about the other people in the group there, were they comfortable?)

Oh, they were—they were intermediate or beginning climbers, so yeah, they were going to hang on to everything they could find.

(Did it make them nervous seeing you walking across that part?)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can’t recall what they said but—

(And you made it all the way across, with your hands in your pockets?)

Yeah, mmm-hmm.

(You know, I read in the guidebook about people who tight-rope walk this. And I never knew I’d actually meet somebody that did that. [Laughs])

Well, there’s a few crazies around. [chuckles]

47:39 (I’ll put another picture up here. What is this a picture of?)

That’s on the Maiden overhang, which is a pretty intimidating place to climb. And it was an early ascent on the Maiden overhang. I think it only had had about two or three other ascents on it. The back of the picture says it was a first ascent but it isn’t really, it was— there had been two or three others—and this is taken on back in the bearded days. And that’s all I can tell you about it. It’s just an exciting place to be.

(Is the picture-taker at the very top?)

No, it’s taken up—uh, I’d have to say it’s about halfway. About the halfway point. If you had the picture of the actual overhang itself then you’d—it’s famous. That’s where the rappel—is free all the way off the top, so the actual summit overhangs the person, or me, in the picture. So it’s an exciting—very exciting location.

(When was the last time you climbed the Maiden?)

I don’t know. It’s been awhile. Have you ever done that?

(No.)

No? It’s been awhile. That’s another fun—yes, memories of places. That’s also another fun one. It’s got a lot of sides to it. I’ve done all three out of four sides. I’ve never done the south side. Often wanted to do that, and never have.

(Did you do the other sides multiple times?)

Yeah. There’s a regular route that comes around on the north side of it, which was the original route that I’ve talked about Mark Taggert and group. That’s how they had climbed it. And the Matron, also, by its normal route, or frequented route, is also on the north side. That’s why we got them all mixed up as to which one we were on. So they’re all good routes. I think the one that is most common is really the treasured [?] route because that’s the original way that it was done. See, you get this sense—the feelings of the people that first went there must have had too. Because they had to locate where every little innuendo of a hold, every little spot. I always take my hat off to the people who first went there. And that’s where it’s climbed most frequently, I think, when it’s climbed. Not this route. [Laughs]

50:21 (Let’s see. We have—)

Teeny little picture.

(Wonder if the camera will be able to _____ of these. Will that work?)

Well, we’ll try it. That’s taken on the summit of the Matterhorn in Switzerland. And I was with my friend who had—that was his first climb ever. His name is Kent Keith, and he was very well known as a periodontist here in Boulder, and retired a few years ago. That was taken back, like 1964.

(And this is you?)

Yeah, I’m on—yeah. And we’re on the Swiss summit. If you look carefully, you can see across over here which is the Italian summit, so, the summit of the Matterhorn was divided in two parts like that. It’s another—by its ordinary route, it really retraces history, which was fabulous. On the first ascent, I think four out of five, or all of them, the rope broke and they lost their lives. They have a cemetery down in Zermatt, and it’s full of these headstones. Every one of them was a climb, climber that had fallen, so if you want to—it’s the most intimidating place in the world to visit before you go do the climb! Because of all these grave stones, headstones.

(An ominous beginning.)

Very! And so when we were there that time, the day before, two people had been taken off the north face of the—fallen—and so they had taken their bodies off and it was horrible weather. We stayed with it though, and the next day was beautiful, like that picture shows. And we had it perfect. But it’s quite a place. And although the route is not a difficult route, you have to be careful with it, because on the way down—we kind of lost our way up—and we had to weave around to find our way down. But we did, and we got back safely. It’s just—I think it’s one of the famous climbs in the world. It just has to be. Such an awe-inspiring looking mountain.

(It is. Have you climbed more in the States than internationally?)

Yeah. My interest overseas has been in the Dolomites of Italy.

(Climb there quite a bit?)

I’ve enjoyed that the most of all the European climbs—areas to climb. And it’s just rock, almost all rock—there’s some snow and ice. It’s minimal snow and ice—it’s really rock climbing. A Mecca for it. Pinnacles and spires. Have you ever seen pictures of that?

(Just pictures.)

Yeah, it’s really a great place to go. And one of the beauties of the Dolomites as you go up and do one of these climbs, come back down that same night and have a great Italian dinner and some little Chianti. [chuckles] That’s mountaineering at its best! See, I’ve been on Mount McKinley and we didn’t have all these little nice facilities.

53:39 (When did you climb McKinley?)

Oh, it was in ’76. The bicentennial year. We did the Cassine Ridge which is the—really an enterprising route to do. It’s just the opposite of the Dolomite experience. The weather’s poor usually: cold, and uninviting. It’s a challenging mountain.

(Have you climbed Everest?)

No.

(Any interest?)

I’ve never been to the Himalaya. I always had more of an interest in the Alpine, or the Rock, and less in the Himalaya. And when I was invited to go there, they were always asking for three months—two to three months of time—which was incompatible with a dental practice. I couldn’t—“Sorry! I’m gone!” [laughs] “Can’t have any problems!”

54:36 (Have you climbed the Diamond on Long’s Peak?)

Always wanted to, never have. Now, I wouldn’t say I’ve always wanted to; I used to be frightened to death over it all. I didn’t know how anybody—I was part of the parties that would say “well, we’ll back up whoever wants to first do it,” so I have some letters and scrapbooks written to the rangers up there saying “well we’re going to be part of the support team and we know that the people who want to try this—Dale Johnson, his name is—is capable of doing it, and here’s his record of ascents, would you let him do it?” But the park wouldn’t let him do it. It was a fearsome thing. When I was in camp up there at Cheley, the Diamond was considered totally impenetrable, impossible. It wasn’t even considered a climb. And as time went on, that kind of fierce challenge stayed with you. It really does, it’s really more of a mental thing than an actual—. It’s got enough problems, technical problems to it, but, one of those areas that is going to be untouched by me, I think. But one that I really respect people that have done it and the ways that it’s been done—it describes all the transitions of climbing. From highly organized direct aid to freestyles—free solos! I can hardly conceive of somebody going up there without a rope, all alone. And people do—yes, they have!

56:16 (And tell us what free solo means.)

It means there’s no one else with you—there might be a photographer someplace. You’re alone, there’s no rope protection, and if you fall, you’ve gone all the way.

(So you’re just climbing with no ropes and no protection—just you and the rock.)

Yeah, the only thing that’s even more fundamental would be a totally naked climb. [Laughs] Without shoes. Barefooted.

(The man David Hershey—?)

You’ve got the name.

(He was kind of known—he was a climber in the area, right?)

Well, he was from out of the area, but he was one I think did the first free solo.

(So that was kind of his thing, I guess.)

It was, yeah.

(Died doing it too, as I recall.)

Yes, he did.

57:07 (Have you ever tried free solos?)

Yeah, but on easy things, not like the Diamond! I’ve free soloed the Third Flatiron. You don’t even count that as a really challenging rock climb at all. The capability of these people is just astounding to me. The athleticism that I’ve seen develop is just remarkable. We’d have a few people that were really well trained, but boy, just a few. Like you can put them all—the numbers of them out of twelve, you might find two that were highly fit, physical, capable of doing these things. But that was all, just minimal numbers.

(We’ll take a break here.)

58:06 [End of Tape A.]

[B].

00:00 (So I have the big question that I’m sure rock climbers hate to hear, but, I have to ask: why climb? What is the appeal to people like us who see no thrill of hanging by little ledges way up above the ground? What is it about that that draws you as a climber?)

I love the touch of the rock. I like feeling the rock itself with my fingers, and I like the experience of being outside. You can do that without climbing rock, of course, but it’s stimulating, it gets the adrenaline flowing. It’s challenging in that it’s sort of a vertical chess game. You really have to look at each move ahead of time and plan the move afterwards. So it has an intellectual component—a big challenge—a mental challenge with it. And that’s always exciting for me, one of the things I enjoy the most. That fresh air, and the exuberance of summiting and succeeding on the route. And the down feeling of not making it and having to come back. But going back and doing it successfully the next time. That sort of sums things up for me, yeah.

(And it has always drawn you? That always pulls you back to climbing?)

Sure. As we talk right now I can feel the sand on the end of my fingers.

(Yeah, my hands are sweating! [chuckles] That’s the reaction I get when I think about climbing!)

01:37 (What would you say are your top five climbs—your most memorable climbs— that you could just—that just come to you)

Right off, huh?

(Mmm-hmm.)

I think that ascent we did at King Fisher was one of them—just having come to a top that no one had been on before. And people that watch this that are climbers—most of them have had that experience and they know what I mean by this. It’s just adventure at its purest form. As to other ones, I think—I’d have to think about that some. Many ascents I’ve had on Long’s Peak, it’s been a friend of mine in a sense. It’s like home in some ways for the climber. Long’s Peak is probably my number one fun, exhausting—first time I ever did I thought I’d never climb another mountain, ever—I was so beat up, I was sixteen years old, I was so, you know, blistered and I thought “I’ll never do this again!” Of course that was the beginning of hundreds of peaks later. Well, I have to put Long’s Peak—I can’t tell you one ascent especially except that one bicycle ascent, perhaps. Otherwise, boy, there’s so many that are favorites that I can’t give you a top five, there’s just too many. They’re all favorites. Every one of them. Some less than others. Certainly that McKinley ascent has to be one of the top ones—through the Cassin Ridge. I don’t know, a lot of them. Really. Like friends you’ve met, which one’s your favorite? There probably are, but you have to sit down and really consider it.

(Yeah, you don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings either, right? [Laughs] By picking a favorite?)

No, mountains don’t get hurt.

03:40 (No, they don’t. So, well when you see younger people climbing these days, what does that do for you? Do you just think climbing is something that can really have an impact in somebody’s life, or the way they learn to tackle problems? Do you think it’s a sport that young kids should at least consider taking up?)

Well, it’s happening, whether I think so or not. It’s really happening. You get all the sport gyms that are around in the area—and I get the Estes Park Gazette, and they’re really active! I mean, it’s become national, international competition. Sport rock climbing or indoor. Yeah, does it translate itself to some other activity? It definitely can. Because if you can master the mental challenges and the physical prowess it takes to move from A to B on a mountain, you can do the same thing with a corporation, with a profession, with anything else.

04:54 (Do you have any other thoughts, maybe questions I haven’t asked or any other ideas you’d like to share?)

I probably do, and the minute you leave I’ll rush out and say “Hey! We forgot something!”

(Well, we can do it again!)

Oh, yeah. I think what strikes me the most is the capability that I’ve seen develop in people in the actual sport itself. The ability is so significantly different than the 1950s and ‘60s. I just admire the way these younger climbers that have come up can move so gracefully from one point to another. And with tremendous strength! And where the women climbers are just better than a good number of the men. But then, I’ve seen that. I saw it take place—I’ve been with them—a number of women on mountains. I’ve been so impressed. In fact, one of the most impressive things was to go to the Tetons with my family. And these are all young guys—boys, five boys—go up there and they’re all just super—little super kids. You know, they’re young men, could do anything. And they get up there with some of the Teton guides—there’s a couple of ladies up there that guide for them—And they couldn’t keep up with them! And they learned a lot about abilities of other people and the other sex as well. So I’ve just seen the development being shared by so many different personalities and capabilities of people, that I guess I’m as impressed by the way they’ve come along in that sport. And I can’t necessarily do it with the Indianapolis 500, although I’m impressed by Danica Patrick—that’s the way you say her name, I’m pretty sure—she almost won it! It’s been enlightening to see all these other people come through like they have, with the strength and endurance and motion and moves. It’s not just the protective elements, pitons or cams or whatever you want to call them, it’s the way people have developed their strength, and move, and to do things that to me, [are] unbelievable almost, except I’ve seen it.

07:29 (I think it’s also interesting how you have actually been part of a generation that inspired those people to do what they’re doing. They saw people like you and they wanted to emulate that and take it in new directions and—)

Yeah, I used to watch Layton Kor try to work on the molding in Baker Armstrong’s house. Baker was a really well-known climber. He’s featured in our book quite a bit. So is Layton, but Layton used to go across the molding near the ceiling, just with his fingertips—traverse around Baker’s living room. I can remember that. And that’s just an example of the kinds of development that I was beginning to—that was starting to transform back in those days. You’re right.

08:20 (Everybody takes it in a little different direction, I guess.)

They push it one step farther. I don’t know how much—I think when they were able to do 5.10, they thought, “Well, that’s about as far as it’s going to be.” And then somebody would do 5.11, and 5.12—increasing difficulties—5.13. 14’s got to be it—it’s not! There’s a 5.15 out there somewhere. [pause] I don’t know what they hold on to! I don’t know how they do it! I’m so impressed. Yeah, I really am.

(Well, you were part of that impressive group that—)

Well, yeah in a different way. Thank you.

(Thank you for your time, and sharing all your memories and thoughts and—)

It’s a pleasure for me to do it.

(Well, thank you very much!)

Thank you.

09:08 [End of Tape B. End of interview.]