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An Interview with Naturopathic Doctor Matt Brignall Transcribed by Julie

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An Interview with Naturopathic Doctor Matt Brignall Transcribed by Julie How “crunchy” got crushed: An interview with naturopathic doctor Matt Brignall May 29, 2020 Transcribed by Julie Ann Lee (Theme song - soft piano music) ABK: Welcome to Noncompliant: The Podcast. I’m your host Anne Borden King. Matt Brignall is a Naturopathic Doctor in Tacoma, Washington. He currently works in a community- based, primary care practice. For nearly 20 years he was a professor in the Naturopathic training program at Bastyr University. He left because he felt that the alternative medicine community was losing its ethical bearings, and becoming a threat to individual and public health. In addition to his practice, he’s currently working as part of the Medical Reserve Corps COVID-19 response team. Matt is the parent of a 20-year-old daughter with Rett Syndrome, and is active in disability advocacy. Matt’s website NDs For Vaccines offers a wealth of information for Naturopaths as well as consumers about the safety and the need for vaccines. It’s an amazing resource. One thing I really love about Matt’s work is that he always avoids the divisive approach, like I’m thinking of SciBabe or some of these annoying ‘I love GMOs’ people, where it seems more about winning an argument than what Matt is doing. And what Matt is doing is very radical and important, influencing people to think differently – to open their minds and find common ground and languages and solutions that might not always be the solutions we want in a perfect world, but which are realistic and bring us closer to public health goals. I’m really excited to talk to Matt. We’re going to spend most of the show talking about COVID pseudoscience and anti-vax as well as some of the mainstreaming of MMS, but I wanted to first introduce the broader topic and the thing that Matt and I have in common-- which is trying to wrap ourselves around how natural health has become commodified in this really specific way and mainstreamed over the past few decades because, you know basically ‘crunchy’ – the concept of ‘crunchy’ has kind of gotten crushed and really morphed from being this community where we help the planet and almost like an anti-capitalistic approach to living. Now it’s kind of morphed into this marketing machine that’s really all about capitalism and marketing and really exploits people’s personal anxieties for billions in wealth. And, for me as a consumer I really notice that first, because I grew up in counter-culture, shopping in food co-ops and things like that, and really very much in this world of [understanding] the decisions that you make about how you live and how you eat impact the rest of the planet. And then I watched as a lot of the food co-op movement kind of got just gentrified right out of business and replaced by more of like sort of a big box, very personalized approach where suddenly the aisles were full of bottles of pills and supplements (where there used to be food) and suddenly it was really about the commodification of this idea of what’s ‘natural’ and what’s healthy and buying things as kind of a path to personal growth and wellness. And this has all kind of just happened in the past, I don’t know, 20 years, and then what’s happening now, of course, is kind of another stage which is the normalization of this really narcissistic approach to food and health with the celebrity wellness and gurus like Paltrow and Mercola telling us what we should do and what we should buy, and what natural is. You have people like Mercola and the Autism One pseudoscience movement and Jenny McCarthy’s Generation Rescue Project. They’ve all kind of glommed onto this idea of natural health, and some have even politicized it. So, we’re going to talk a bit about that today, and I’m really looking forward, Matt, to your perspective as someone who’s been practicing in Natural Health. Matt, what’s your take on all of these changes? Why has this changed so much, so quickly? MB: Well, I think that’s a very difficult question. I’ve been working in my spare time on a book, trying to address some of those changes, and to work through my sadness around it. But, I think probably the most obvious change that’s occurred in the last 20 years has been the way that people can immediately disperse information across the planet and this has led to this race to the bottom where people try to increasingly gain market share and gain fame through making more and more outlandish statements. And I don’t really know that there’s a way [or] there’s an obvious way to stop that process, but I do feel like I’ve watched this movement really move away from me, and I really don’t see myself in it anymore. ABK: Wow, but you’re a practicing Naturopath, so how do you end up practicing…where do you find your place? MB: (laughter) Well, that’s a good question too. So, I’ve really tapped my practice more toward mainstream standard of care medicine as I’ve seen many of my colleagues go the opposite direction. ABK: Hmm. What elements of Naturopathy can you bring into the mainstream practice that might make it unique from another mainstream practice, or make it more strong? MB: When I talk to students about practice models, I think it’s really useful to separate the visit model from the therapeutics that are used, and I think historically in alternative medicine, we’ve made the conversation about the therapeutics, whether they be use of herbal medicines, vitamins and what not. But I think the visit model with Naturopathic medicine is a really powerful one. It’s a longer visit model, it’s a more equal visit model and it’s one that incorporates aspects of counselling and routine visits, and I’ve retained that. I really enjoy practicing that model even as I rejected some of the more alternative therapeutic options. ABK: That’s so interesting. That’s something that I would imagine you can educate physicians about if they were not taught about that model when they were in medical school. MB: Well, that’s a difficult model, and it’s a model that’s certainly not an income-driven model. I think most doctors probably see three patients for every one that I push through my practice- ‘push through my practice’ - that sounds terrible. But they make three times as much money because they see three times as many patients. So, I don’t know how sustainable my model would be across the system. ABK: Right. But, I suppose even a modified version of it would be helpful in terms of checking in with people- I’m thinking especially during the times of COVID, like I had to see my doctor recently and the appointment was very quick because now it has to be, right?- but she followed up with an email, which is great- email is so great, and she uses it – and she asked about the emotional and mental health of my family, my whole family who see her- during these COVID times, so that there was an opportunity for her and she really recognized that- that that’s a huge part of health right now. MB: Yeah, well one thing that I see in my colleague’s visits is a strange sort of siege mentality, where they feel like medical doctors are, I don’t know, are taking parts of what we’ve been working on in the alternative medicine movement. I’d like to reframe that. I think in a lot of ways our movement won – the 80s and 90s movement of more humility in the medical profession- I see evidence for that all over the place. I don’t take that as a bad thing in any way. ABK: Well, most of the challenge might be from the institution itself. I mean I live in Canada, and there’s a certain number of people that they just have to see, and so it’s really difficult to fit it in to, I guess their time slots, and to kind of push back and try to get more time with patients, it’s something that they have to wrangle with the actual institution – in our case it would be our provincial health managed system and in your case it would be insurance companies, I guess. MB: Yeah. And that’s always a difficult balance, and probably not a…the balance of my practice model. My income’s probably not as interesting to your listeners but it occupies a lot of my headspace. ABK: Right, so you’re working with MDs and then, since you’ve practiced- since you started practicing Naturopathy, within Naturopathy it seems like you’ve seen this big shift. Do you know why things have changed so much? Or, can you talk a little bit more about that shift that you’re uncomfortable with that’s making you move in a different direction? MB: Yeah. One of the things that happens and I think that’s particularly true up in your province is that the scopes of practice almost require my colleagues to do things that are unethical to make ends meet. So, imagine being a doctor that can’t bill insurance and can’t be part of a system but has access to intravenous medications and ordering laboratory tests and doing these esoteric stem cell, hyperbaric oxygen sorts of treatments, and what would you do? I think the choice, when the choice is feeding your family doing unethical practice or changing careers, I understand why we see the models we do.
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