?Fighilatinrp Asurmbtig

3928 3928[ASSEMBLY)

In July 1985 the Commonwealth introduced ?fighilatinrp Asurmbtig a new rural adjustment scheme which provides an interest subsidy for the State so that it can Thursday, 7 November 1985 borrow funds from commercial sources and so lend funds to farmers in need at THE SPEAKER (Mr Harman) took the sub-commercial rates. The basis of this ar- Chair at 2.15 p.m., and read prayers. rangement is contained in a new Common- wealth-State agreement. Under the new agree- RURAL ADJUSTMENT AND FINANCE ment the Commonwealth has formally agreed CORPORATION AMENDMENT BILL to provide to Western Australia an interest subsidy of approximately $430 000 which will en- Introduction and First Reading able the corporation to borrow approximately Bill introduced, on motion by Mr Evans $4.7 million to on-lend to farmers in 1985-86. (Minister for Agriculture), and read a first time. Although the demand cannot yet be assessed and will not become clear until after harvest Second Reading when farmers undertake their financial re- MR EVANS (Warren-Minister for views, it is certain that the demand will exceed Agriculture) [2.20 p.m.]: I move- $4.7 million. The Federal Minister for Primary Industry indicated on his recent visit to West- That the Bill be now read a second time. ern Australia that the allocation will be It is well known that agricultural industries in increased to enable a further $I million to be Australia are facing serious difficulties as costs borrowed under the scheme. continue to risc faster than commodity prices. The agreement also makes provision for the In Western Australia, the grain-based indus- State to approach the Commonwealth for ad- tries are especially vulnerable, particularly ditional funding if circumstances warrant. in areas which, with the exception of 1984, have experienced dry seasons in recent years. The agreement also includes aquaculture as a rural industry, which is not covered in the The rural adjustment scheme funded by the existing Act. Commonwealth has played an important role as lender of last resort in assisting with the The purpose of this amendment is to provide inevitable adjustment and restructuring in the for inclusion of the new, or fifth, agreement in industry and in enabling farmers to stay in the the Rural Adjustment and Finance Corpor- industry who would otherwise have been ation Act 197 1, as amended. It was not possible forced out. to simply include the fifth agreement as a schedule to the Act as the agreement is not an In July 1985 the Rural Adjustment and amendment to or part of existing Common- Finance Corporation Act 197 1, as amended, wealth-State agreements. Provision for the was enacted. This Act provided for the forma- amendment therefore mentions the new, or tion and operation of the Rural Adjustment fifth, agreement in addition to other agree- and Finance Corporation to assist with the ments or schemes covered by the Act. financial problems faced by the rural industry in Western Australia. This Act empowered the The amendment allows for the Rural Ad- corporation to administer existing rural recon- justment and Finance Corporation to adminis- struction and rural adjustment scheme funds, ter the agreement on behalf of the State. It emergency relief, drought loans, special allows for a fund, known as the 1985 Fund, to carry-on loans, and other Govern- be set up to receive and pay out moneys ment-sponsored rural financial measures. associated with the agreement. Funds can also be transferred into and out of the 1985 Fund Prior to July 1985. the Commonwealth from other funds such as the rural adjustment provided funds for rural reconstruction and ru- fund where this is considered necessary and ral adjustment schemes on an annual basis for prudent. The provision for fund transferability the States to on-lend to farmers at allows for continuity of funding when there is a sub-commercial interest rates with a scheduled temporary fund shortfall. agreement for the States to repay the funds to the Commonwealth. Also included in the amendment are a few minor changes which correct technical aspects In 1982-83 the rural adjustment scheme of the 1985 Act. provided $4.3 million to assist 95 farmers; in 1983-84, $ 10 million to assist 170 farmers; and I commend the Bill to the House. in 1984-85, $5.4 million to assist 91 farmers. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Old. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 323929

ACTS AMENDMENT (WATER that is to happen we must find ways of provid- AUTHORITIES) BILL ing water, and Stinton Creek is part of that Second Reading overall armoury. If the member says Stinton Creek is to be excluded, what justification is Debate resumed from 29 October. there for putting into the programme in place MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Minister for of Stinton Creek other areas which are more Water Resources) (2.26 p.m.J: I thank the costly? Who is going to have to pay for that? It members for Dale and Floreat for their contri- will be the ratepayers and taxpayers of Western butions to the debate, and I will make some Australia. brief comments on those contributions. So the Opposition would go to the more ex- The member for Dale's speech quite clearly pensive alternatives. One cannot govern in that indicated his attitude to politics-the art of way. When the people from Stinton Creek govern ment-which is to step carefully on the came to see me they said they were concerned various stepping stones of popularity and as a that they would not be able to carry on result end up by being thoroughly inconsistent. agriculture in the way they had. It is a pity they For example, early in his speech the member did not tell me what was on their minds from for Dale commented, "We do not want so the stant, although I guessed. They said to me, much change. There is too much legislation." "We will not be able to carry on agriculture, He went on only one or two breaths later to talk and you are going to put regulations in our way. about the various anomalies in the rating controlling the use of pesticides and so on system. Of course, those anomalies were well which will make it impossible for us to carry on and truly alive and flourishing when the mem- as orchardists." ber for Dale was a Minister of the Court and O'Connor Governments. For nine years there I took technical advice because I am cer- were anomalies in the rating system and the tainly not an expert, and I was informed over then Governments did very little about them. and over again by officers of the Water Auth- ority that the guidelines we were talking about How can we change the anomalies in the were the kind of guidelines that were essential rating system-which we are committed to and for good orcharding, because if those people are working on-if we do not have legislative were putting so much pesticide on their or- changes? That is typical of the member for chards that it would damage a public water Dale's attitude, which leads him to be very in- supply system, they were poisoning the people consistent. through their fruit. I did not believe that was An example of the impossibility of governing happening, so clearly the amount of pesticides in that way-of appeasing everyone-is his they were using for their fruit was at a level comment about Stinton Creek. The member consistent with safe water supplies. for Dale commented that if the Liberal Party I was able to assure them after many meet- became the Government after the next State ings that their livelihood as orchardists would election, the gazettal of Stinton Creek as a water supply not be interfered with. In order for (hem to area would be withdrawn. In have an input into the matter I appointed an other words, the need for water for the people advisory committee to advise me and the of Perth would be sacrificed to political expedi- ency because some people have become upset Water Authority as to the guidelines. So the local orchardists were represented on the com- about Stinton Creek. We have demonstrated a mittee. I was not required by Statute to do that; need. The member knows very well it is very I did it as evidence of good faith. When the unlikely that he will be Minister for Water Re- guidelines were taken to a public meeting they sources. He also knows that if the Opposition were thrown out. The people said they would won Government after a year or two the new not accept them; they said they would not ac- Minister for Water Resources would go ahead cept anything except de-gazettal, if that is the because he would be acting on the same kind of advice that I am acting on. The member for right word, as a water supply area. Dale says there is no need, but he was the The remarkable thing is that at that meeting Minister who laughed at our efforts in Oppo- they then started to talk about rezoning and sition to talk about restricting the size of Perth. cutting up the orchards for residential pur- The member asked, "Are you going to build poses. That was never said to me at my meet- barbed wire fences around Perth and stop it ings with them. I said to them time and time getting bigger?" The member for Dale sub- again, "You have nothing to fear. You can scribes to the view that Perth will grow, and if carry on your present practice as orchardists in 3930 3930[ASSEMBLY] the same way. You will never have to alter that. which is required for public water supply Are you concerned about being able to split up systems is the same as that required for pro- your lots into smaller areas for residential pur- duction of a good and edible quality of fruit. poses?" They said, "No, we want to carry on as Mr Rushton: You are not fooling them. orchardists." They should have been more honest with me in the first place and said, "We Mr TONKIN: If the member is saying the really want to be able to cut up our lots; we are officers of the Water Authority are trying to not really interested in carrying on as fool those people I do not agree with him. orchardists." They did not say that. Mr Williams: You would not know. You Mr Rushton: They say you should take the have to take advice. water and compensate them; buy their proper- Mr TONKIN: Of course. tics. Mr TONKIN: There is no need for that. Mr Rushton: If you collected the water and treated it and put it into Canning Dam you Mr Rushton: You will gradually take what would not need to go through this rigmarole of they have. gazettal and controls. You could have all the Mr TONKIN: We will not take anything. We water that is to spare. will take the water which is surplus to their Mr TONKIN: That is all we are taking at the needs. moment-the water that is spare. We are leav- Mr Rushton: If you took the water and ing them with everything else. It is quite clear pumped it into the Canning River and did not that members opposite were in Government put all these restrictions on, you would not for nine years- have any fuss. Mr Rushton: We did not gazette Stinton Mr TONKIN: The restrictions are those that Creek; I can tell you that. That is the difference apply at the moment. between us. Mr Rushton: You are going to apply controls MrTONKIN: The Previous Government did over them. Take the water and compensate not gazette it because it had not got to that them; that is an honourable approach. Or, if stage. It is just a question of the stage reached you take the water, dam it and treat it and do in history, nothing more or less. not interfere with their production of a vital food. It is clear that if the Opposition became Government it would have to do as it did in its Mr TONKIN: We are not interfering. nine years in office and make preparation for Mr Rushton: They think you are, and they the growth of Perth. That would be done by are the specialists in food production. taking advice from the Water Authority and by Mr TONKIN: The guidelines drawn up by developing the cheaper sources of water. If the committee were drawn up with grower rep- members opposite did not do that they would resentatives. cause increases in rates. That would disadvan- Mr Rushton: That is your way of putting it tage all ratepayers in Western Australia. over them. The member for Dale referred to the Mr TONKIN: It is not putting anything over Westfield sewerage scheme 6A which is another them if one consults the local people and says, area where he would not have gone ahead be- "Work out the guidelines and make cause he is irresponsible. The Minister for recommendations." That is what they have Health through the Public Health Department done. has advised me there is a public health risk, but because some people got upset and the member Mr Rushton: They are saying if you take the for Dale wants a few votes he would jeopardise water you should compensate them. the health of the people of Perth. Mr TONKIN: For what? Mr Mensaros: What nonsense! Mr Rushton: For the loss of production. Mr TONKIN: It is not nonsense. Mr TONKIN: There will be no loss of production whatever. Mr Mensaros: Half of Pernh is not sewered. Mr Rushton: That is the non-farmer talking. Mr TONKIN: This is a particular problem; Mr TONKIN: There is no loss of production these are different soils. at all. They have been told they can carry on as Mr Mensaros: You are the reason we cannot they have been doing. The level of pesticide use work in this House; you can only attack people. [Thursday,?7 November 1985) 393193

Mr TONKIN: The member for Floreat is at- prevent it from growing altogether. We there- tacking the Health Department when he says fore have to address ourselves to providing these remarks are nonsense. The Public Health water for people and to saving the people from Department has said that there is a threat to health problems as a result of septic tank fail- the health of the people in the area and that is ures. They are failing in the hills area and why the system has to go ahead. It is all very Stinton Creek is needed. well for the member for Floreat to say that half of Perth is unsewered. Most of Perth is on We know the Opposition will promise any- sandy soils and conducive to septic tanks. The thing while in Opposition. However, we are soils in the Kelmscott area are not conductive well aware that, when it is returned to Govern- to the proper functioning of septic systems. The ment, the advice from the Water Authority and health of Perth is being jeopardised by the fail- from the Public Health Department will con- ure to develop sewerage in that area. flict with its election promises and the result will be that it will agree that the Westfield Mr Rushton: it was put to you by the people sewerage system must go ahead because of risks that you should have regard to their wishes and to public health. It will also agree that the you said you would. When they said they did harvesting of water at places like Stinton Creek not wan( this system you imposed it on them. will have to go ahead because of the growth of This is an area of' low density. If deep sewerage Perth. We do not have a great deal of respect goes in high-rise buildings will be developed. for those kinds of irresponsible policies in Already one of your members has proposed an which, in Opposition, members opposite say Aboriginal medical centre in the middle of the one thng knowing very well that, in Govern- residential area because of the proposal to put~ ment, they will take a different line altogether in deep sewerage. and knowing that, when they become the Mr TONKIN: An epidemic, which is the ad- Government again, they will have to follow the vice of the Public Health Deptantment, would kind of policy that this Government is follow- change their lifestyle in a hurry. ing. Mr Rushton: Vast areas of land will have to Mr Evans: If it becomes Government, not be sewered in due course. when. Mr TONKIN: This area is not conducive to septic tanks; the soils are not suitable. They are Mr TONKIN: I am assuming that one day not the sands on which most of Perth is built. the Opposition will be returned to the Govern- The member for Floreat said that half of Perth ment benches. The fact is that when that hap- has septic systems; of course it has. It depends pens it will have to take the advice of the Water on the soil type. The septic tanks are failing in Authority and the Public Health Department the Kelmscott area. on these two matters. There is no doubt that, when in Government. the member for Dale Mr Mensaros: There is no soil that is not and the member for Floreat took advice from conducive to septic tanks. There are soils that Government departments and did not have a are not conducive to soaks or trench drains. mind of their own. For them to suggest that However, septic tanks are not affected by soils. things will be somehow different is nonsense. That is how much you know about it, They are many years older. Maybe they think Mr TONKIN: The septic tanks in that area they will become like young lions and ignore are failing. The advice of Water Authority departmental advice and act in a way that is officers-the same officers who advised the quite laughable. member for Floreat and made him a better There is no Minister than he would have been-and the doubt that the Government has to be concerned over these matters but we can- advice of the Public Health Department is that not just run away from these issues because there is a threat to public health if that area is not sewered. That is why we are acting in this some people have other views. I believe that the Opposition is speaking with tongue respect. in cheek when it says that it will not harvest water It is clear to the Government that action has from Stinton Creek or that it will not proceed to be taken now. Whether we like it or not with sewerage schemes like Westfield 6A. Perth is growing. It is our policy to retard the growth of Perth. When we said that in Oppo- I support the Bill. sition, the former Government laughed and Question put and passed. talked about barbed-wire fences. However, although we may retard its growth we will not Bill read a second time. 3932 3932[ASSEMBLY]

In Commrittee Clause 83: Section 58 further amended- The Chairman of Committees (Mr Barnett) Mr TONKIN: I was rather angry when in the Chair; Mr Tonkin (Minister for Water officers of the Water Authority came to me and Resources) in charge of the Bil, indicated that they had some amendments to Clause I put and passed. put on the Notice Paper when the Bill had been introduced only a week or two previously. I Clause 2: Commencement- made my views plain to them. Mr RUSHTON: I appreciate the detailed ex- Mr Peter Jones: I agree with you on that. We planations provided to me by the Minister on had the same problem. They have enough time the amendments. It is therefore my intention to to get a Bill ready without that sort of business. speak on four clauses only. r have not appreci- Mr TONKIN: Yes. However, the amend- ated the sting of the Minister's tongue today. I ments are minor. In any case, I apologise to the did not feel it was appropriate in these circum- Committee for having to introduce them to our stances. Maybe a day off sick has stirred him own Bill. up. Certainly, it is not conducive to having his I repeat that the changes are minor and are Sill passed in an expedient way. easily overlooked in such a large Bill. Although This is an important issue. Already numer- I expressed my concern to the officers that I ous amendments have been put forward. That should have had to bring forward these amend- is not conducive to a feeling of confidence that ments to the Chamber, I am very impressed by all is well in the administration of the Water the service generally given by officers of the Authority. That has been the case not only with Water Authority, particularly by Mr Bill this Minister. The matter was tackled very Wilkin, who has been the officer mainly con- forcefully and with great ability by the previous cerned with the very large amendments that Minister, the member for Floreat. He tackled have had to come forward, partly as a result of some very difficult matters relating to the the merger of the public works supply section finance of the authority and to the works proof the Public Works Department and the gramme. There is certainly a great need to Metropolitan Water Authority, and partly for tackle costs if we are to make the authority other reasons such as the need to remove rating more efficient and less costly. anomalies and the like. I am impressed with the great amount that has been done in that I indicate to the Minister that it is worrying way. I do not want my comments that I was that so many amendments have had to be concerned about these amendments to be taken introduced so soon. as saying that I was dissatisfied, except in that Clause put and passed. minor way, with the work of the officers because I have round that their support for me as Clauses 3 and 4 put and passed. Minister and their service to the people of Clause 5: Section 8 amended- Western Australia has been of very high standard indeed. I move an amendment- Mr RUSHTON: Clause 5 amends section 8 of the principal Act to allow for dealings in Page 33, lines 23 to 25-To delete para- land the title for which is in the name of the graph (b) and substitute the following para- Crown. This provision is necessary because lo- graph (b)- cal authorities are experiencing difficulties. (b) in subsection (2)- One such problem has been put to me by the (i) by deleting "amend a" and Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale. The Minister substituting the following- will no doubt receive a letter from me and the -amend the "; and shire. Opportunities for property development (ii) by deleting "rate books" and should not be missed while the Minister makes substituting the following- priorities of such schemes as the 6A scheme in Westfield Park. rating records. The reason I move this amendment is that it is Mr Tonkin: You say you will write to me grammatically correct to say that one can about that? amend "a rate book," but it is not correct to say that one can amend -a rating records". Mr RUSHTON: I will write to the Minister Members will be able to see that the amend- on the subject. ments are minor and are brought forward Clause put and passed. largely for reasons of grammar. Clauses 6 to 82 put and passed. Amendment put and passed. [Thursday, 7 November 19851 393333

Clause, as amended, put and passed. 11after demand therefor in Clauses 84 10 92 put and passed. writing by the Authority Clause 93: Section 80 amended- Amendment put and passed. Mr TON KIN: I move an amendment- Clause, as amended, put and passed. Page 36, line 2-To delete "book duly" Clauses 107 to 122 put and passed. and substitute the following- Clause 123: "a rate book" amended to "the book. rating records" in Part VII- Page 36, line 5-To delete "books" and Mr TONKIN: I move an amendment- substitute the following- Page 43, line 5-To insert after book. "Sections" the following- Deletion of the expression "book duly" is 39D, necessary because the word "duly" does not appear in the Act. If something does not ap- Section 390 was omitted from the list of sec- pear, as a rule it cannot be debated. That seems tions. fairly reasonable. Therefore, it has been necess- Amendment put and passed. ary to make an amendment so that what is deleted is what does appear in the Act. Clause, as amended, put and passed. Amendments put and passed. Clauses 124 to 158 put and passed. Clause, as amended, put and passed. Title put and passed. Clauses 94 to 105 put and passed. Report Clause 106: Section 92 amended- Bill reported, with amendments, and the re- Mr TONKIN: One of the reasons for bring- port adopted. ing this Bill to the House is to enable payment options to be offered to country people. Such Third Reading options are already offered to metropolitan people. The Land Drainage Act provides at MR TONKIN (Morley-Swan-Minister for present that there should be no action for re- Water Resources) [3.04 p.m.]: I move- covery of unpaid moneys until one month after That the Bill be now read a third time. serving of (he notice. This provision is not compatible with a two-month option or a In doing so I would like to thank the members four-month payment option. for Dale and Floreat in particular, and the House generally, for the expeditious passage of For that reason, I move an amendment- this Bill through the Committee stage. Page 38-To delete clause 106 and MR MENSAROS (Floreat) [3.05 p.m.]: I substitute the following clause- take this opportunity to respond to the Minis- 106. Section 92 of the principal Act ter who, in his second reading speech, attacked is amended- in a personal manner the member for Dale. I (a) in subsection (1), by deleting "by do not think the member for Dale needs any entering, on a vacant page of the defence, but having had a little experience I rate-book to be left blank for the shall point out where I think the Minister was purpose, a memorandum of the wrong and not justified. order "; and In connection with the Sinton Creek gazettal (b,) in subsection (2)- provisions, the Minister said the member for (i) by inserting after "notice Dale would be irresponsible if he did not ad- shiall" the following- here to the advice of the department or the authority and considered withdrawing the .. subject to any by-law as gazetting. According to all this legislation to the time and mode of pay- which has been amended in this Bill, there is a ment, "; and procedure for having certain areas declared (i i) by deleting "from the date of catchment areas. During this procedure various service of the notice of assess- advertisements are placed, we listen to local ment pursuant to section 93" residents and submissions are made to the and substituting the follow- authorities and to the Minister. Time is al- ing- lowed for a decision to be made. 3934 3934[ASSEMBLY]

Does the Minister mean that, because the also what the board of the authority decides; he advice of the department or the authority is is the master of the situation. I am not criticis- such, all these local steps are virtually eyewash ing that. Many Governments try to shed the and that the submissions of local people have responsibility to the public when it comes to no merit? increases in rates and charges. According to all these Statutes, the Minister can ignore all these procedures and not listen I fully appreciate that this power might be even to the people who submit various necessary, but it is just another argument. The objections. He can go on the advice of the auth- Minister called a colleague, albeit he sits on the ority. or go ahead anyhow, no matter what sub- Opposition benches, who had More aggregate missions are made. That is what the Minister experience than myself and was a very con- meant when he attacked the member for Dale. scientious Minister who investigated even the Let us talk about the advice, particularly in smallest detail and talked to the people connection with this Bill, because the Minister involved on many subjects such as railways, himself and some members might recall how he transport, local government, town planning, proudly said to this House that the authority etc., irresponsible. It is wrong simply to label changed its advice. This advice was given to him irresponsible, but that sort of behaviour him as a Minister, and it was changed because seems to be the order of the day. I was called by they knew what his feelings were. That was in the Minister for Fuel and Energy irresponsible connection with collecting bad debts. and incapable. This Minister who had about My advice in connection with the bad debts one-tenth of the experience I have had, had the was that if a second notice was sent out, [Ithink hindsight to know what should have been done over $1 million dollars cost was involved. Busi- 10 years ago when he was scarcely into long ness people know the value of money and they trousers. will wait till the second notice comes out, which says that the rates and charges must be Another point regarding advice very much paid within so many days. Any delay in paying connected with this Bill is the State's next water rates will deprive the Water Authority of major dam. This is a matter we could argue a certain amount of interest. In the case of a about at length, but from the point of view of large number of consumers, this comes to a the 550 million cubic metre capacity of the considerable amount of money which could be existing dams servicing the metropolitan area, added to the actual cost of sending out all the excluding Mundaring, of course, it is something notices. of little importance quantitatively, but what Except where there are exceptional cases, will be the advice of the department or the and the officers of the authority personally Water Authority regarding the next major ascertained this, disconnecting the water to dam? The Minister knows he would probably discipline consumers to pay in time would se- be advised to build another dam on the cure the cash flow to the Water Authority, Dandalup river. Will the Minister simply take which is in the interests of all consumers, be- that advice blindly because preparations have cause that governs what rates must be set next been made, or will he take note of his priorities, year. as the member for Dale has suggested? I submit The other point is that no Minister is bound that whichever party is in Government at the to stick to advice, If he were, the Minister's time should not exclude what the member for existence would not be justified. l am using the Dale pointed out regarding priorities. The Min- argument, pointing out that it cannot be said ister knows that the Serpentine river does not that unless the Minister goes according to the flow any more. This point should be of great advice he receives he is irresponsible to say he interest to members. When this dam is being would not. built the Murray will not flow either. It will affect the whole recreation area of the metro- Mr Tonkin: I am not saying that. I am saying politan population and Mundaring. The he need not accept the advice. it is irrespon- Government will have to take its decision over sible to say he would not. the next five or six years because that is about Mr MENSAROS: Not only is the Minister the time when the authority will be ready to put not bound to be advised, the legislation we are the final advice to the Minister to go ahead dealing with also specifically empowers the with the Dandalup dam. That matter will have Minister to direct the Water Authority. He can to be decided and the priorities will have to be upset anything it decides; not only advice but taken into consideration. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 393533

The water supply for the metropolitan area is A complementary agreement has been nor in dire straits. There is plenty of water reached with the Commonwealth which secures available, It is only a question of how much it an exemption from the Commonwealth crude costs and which source is used. There is plenty oil excise for petroleum produced on Barrow of underground water to cater for double our Island. population; it is only a matter of exploiting it. Obviously the cheapest sources were exploited The resource rent royalty will thus replace first and the more expensive sources will be both the Commonwealth excise and State roy- exploited in the future. The very sound argu- alty for the Barrow Island petroleum lease. ment from the point of view of the water utility Revenues and administration costs will be is that a dam will eventually have to be built shared between the two Governments in the manner prescribed in the complementary because that is the next cheapest water source. The consequence was-disregarding the En- agreement. vironmental Protection Authority; one has only This arrangement represents a significant to ask people who know the area of Peel Inlet to milestone in intergovernmental fiscal relations. know what happened to that area when the It is the first time that a State, the Common- Serpentine Dam was built-an algae problem wealth and industry have willingly collaborated resulted. Most of the algae problem is the re- on a major reform of taxation or royalties. sponsibility of these two dams because if flush- More importantly, it represents a unique in- ing were undertaken the problem would not stance of a Commonwealth levy being with- exist. We would not have to talk about the drawn in favour of a State royalty, thereby Dawesville cut. The problem was nonexistent returning to a State effective royalty power before the Serpentine and Dandalup Dams over a major resource project. It demonstrates were built. I remember the situation very well. what can be achieved through the constructive The farmers-who are now blamed-were approach to Federal relations adopted by this already there, or their fathers and grandfathers Government. were there. The initial impetus for this reform was the I remind the Minister that he should be a decision by this Government to rectify a little more cautious when using words such as misjudgment made under previous Govern- "irresponsibility" and questioning the dedi- ments, which allowed the Commonwealth cation of a colleague whom I respect and who crude oil excise to be deducted when calculat- does not deserve this criticism. ing payments under the existing ad valoreni royalty regime. This error allowed the Com- Question put and passed. monwealth to expand its rate of excise, reduc- Bill read a third time and transmitted to the ing the State's royalty receipts in absolute as well as relative terms. Council. The most obvious option open to the State BARROW ISLAND ROYALTY was to withdraw the deductibility of excise pay- AGREEMENT BILL ments. This action, however, would have had a disastrous effect on the operation of the field, Second Reading forcing WAPET to shut in about 30 per cent of its production and abandon some new invest- MR PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for ments and exploration activity. Minerals and Energy) [3.16 p.m.]: I move- Rather than following such a short-sighted That the Bill be now read a second time. policy, the State and the other pantics agreed in principle to alternative arrangements that The Bill ratifies an agreement between the would provide gains to all parties. State of Western Australia and West Australian Petroleum Pty Limited, or WAPET to intro- The source of mutual gain and the driving duce a resource rent royalty to replace the ad force of the new arrangement is the elimination valoremn royalty provisions presently applying of economic waste arising from the excise and to the Barrow Island oil field under the pet- ad valoren royalty and the implementation of a roleum lease. The Bill also makes enabling resource rent royalty regime that avoids further amendments to the royalty provisions of rel- economic waste by not distorting exploration, evant petroleum legislation. Other legislative investment and operating decisions. This re- and lease provisions relating to Barrow Island source rent royalty system is dlefined by the are left intact. Barrow Island royalty agreement. 3936 3936ASSEMBLY)

The existing royalty and excise duty to be The resource rent royalty is simple in con- replaced by the resource rent royalty are based cept and structure and provides WAPET with on gross value of production. Therefore, they certain, stable rules of the game upon which to are insensitive to the high costs of incremental base future investment decisions. It eliminates production and thereby bring about premature the need under the previous regime to make termination of production from existing wells frequent, ad hoc, arbitrary, complex ad- and discourage costly investments to recover justmrents in an attempt to ensure that the ex- further oil. cise tax and ad valorein royalty do not knock out production and new investments as circum- The resource rent royalty, because it is based stances facing the oilfield change. on realised profit in cash terms and provides for a satisfactory rate of return on investment The resource rent royalty has been based on before any royalty is payable, does not have the principles of the Commonwealth resource these serious side effects. The resource rent rent tax applicable to offshore Greenftelds pet- royalty will, in stark contrast to the existing roleum projects. However, it improves on that arrangement, result in more investment, regime in a number of respects and establishes greater annual production and an extension of points of detail that will guide the Common- the life of the field. Accordingly, increased ben- wealth in drafting its resource rent tax legis- efits will be available to all parties. lation. The fairness and efficiency of the Bar- row Island resource rent royalty system is As well as benefiting from the additional illustrated by the fact that the principles and economic activity associated with Barrow details have been scrutinised and agreed in Island, the State will benefit greatly in financial total by WAPET and its participants, which terms. It will collect additional royalties from include three of the largest oil companies in the Barrow Island of around $9 million in 1985-86; world, and two Governments. tn the following years the exact level will depend on oil prices and field performance. In The main features of the resource rent rOY- addition, as pant of the agreement with the alty are as follows- Commonwealth, the State has already received It will apply from I July 1985; very substantial compensation from the Com- monwealth for royalties lost since our dis- resource rent royalty will replace the Com- covery of our predecessors' misjudgment in monwealth crude oil levy and the State ad allowing excise payments as a deduction in the v'alorem royalty on petroleum from Barrow royalty calculation. Island; The benefits to WAPET are significant. The the rate of resource rent royalty will be 40 marginal rate of excise tax plus royalty on oil per cent; Island under the old production from Barrow all bona fide costs after I July 1985 will be arrangement was over 90 per cent of gross written off immediately in the year in value at the well head compared with the mar- which they are paid, with any excess of ginal resource rent royalty rate of only 40 per receipts over expenditures being subject to cent of net value after all costs. WAPET will royalty and any excess of costs over re- now receive 60 per cent of the gains from in- ceipts at the end of the year being cremental production which should assist the compounded forward at the accumulation commercial viability of tertiary recovery and rate to be deductible in the next year; deep drilling activity. the only pre-lI July 1985 costs allowed as a The Commonwealth, along with the other deduction relate to the 1984-85 drilling panlics, will share in the economic efficiency programme to locate more oil. This was gains flowing from the new arrangement, but allowed because the revenues from oil these will be long-term gains. In the short-term, discovered by this programme will be some Commonwealth revenues have been produced almost entirely under this new redistributed to the State in the interests of royalty promoting sensible tax reform. A central part regime; of the Hawke Government's resource policy the accumulation rate is an allowance has been the reform of resource taxation ar- designed to allow an appropriate rate of rangements along rational economic lines. The return on all capital, including equity as Barrow Island resource rent royalty will be the well as debt capital, invested in explo- first such reform implemented. Accordingly, ration and recovery of petroleum on Bar- the Commonwealth has been most cooperative. row Island; and, [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 393733

strong checks and balances are provided to pares very favourably with the State's share of prevent royalty avoidance and to ensure total Government revenues-that is, Common- that WAPET is fairly treated when royalty wealth excise plus State royalties-derived is assessed. from the field in the past. This share has not In summary, the new royalty arrangements exceeded 10 per cent in any year since the enabled by the Bill represent a major achieve- Commonwealth excise was introduced in 1975. ment of this Government. The State's revenue has been significantly increased in a manner While revenues from existing mineral and which substantially improves rather than petroleum royalties are paid directly into the diminishes incentives to explore, invest and State's Consolidated Revenue Fund, the nature recover petroleum. At the same time, State of the new royalty arrangements for Barrow control over its resources has been enhanced in Island and the requirement for payment to the contrast to the persistent erosion of State Commonwealth of its agreed share of the rev- powers in respect of resources which occurred enue necessitate special arrangements. Because under our predecessors. The new arrangements the new royalty is imposed as a consequence of demonstrate that the State. the industry and an agreement with the Commonwealth with the the Commonwealth can all benefit from a co- maj or part of the revenue collections to be operative approach to rational reform of roy- on-passed to the Commonwealth, a trust fund alty and taxation of resources. is to be established to allow payment to the Commonwealth without requiring annual ap- I commend the Bill to the House. p ropri at ions. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Peter Jones. The Bill proposes that all royalty receipts received by the State from the new royalty be BARROW ISLAND ROYALTY TRUST paid into the trust fund and, within 21 days, be ACCOUNT BILL distributed 75 per cent to the Commonwealth Second Reading and 25 per cent to the State's Consolidated MR PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for Revenue Fund. Minerals and Energy) [3.23 p.m.]: I move- The Bill also enables refunds to be paid from That the Bill be now read a second time. the trust fund, if appropriate, in the event that This Bill provides for the establishment of a refunds are required because of an trust fund into which all royalty revenue overpayment of royalty by the lessee. Consist- received by the State from the new resource ent with the agreed revenue sharing arrange- rent royalty to be levied on Barrow Island is to ments, the Commonwealth will be responsible be paid. The new resource rent royalty will re- for meeting 75 per cent of any refunds payable place the existing State ad valorein royalty and by the State. the Commonwealth excise, with revenue from the new royalty to be shared between the Com- A Deed of Agreement to be signed by the monwealth and the State on a 75 per cent:25 Commonwealth and the State relating to the per cent basis. revenue-sharing arrangements will detail the This Bill should be read in conjunction with specific administrative and revenue sharing de- the Barrow Island Royalty Agreement Bill 1985 tails agreed between the Commonwealth and which details the new royalty arrangements. the State. Under the new arrangements there will be The new royalty arrangements to apply to substantial financial benefits to the State, both Barrow Island represent a prime example of immediately and over the remaining lire of the what can be achieved with the Commonwealth field. For example, in 1985-86 the State expects and State Governments working together to receive an additional $9 million over and rather than in competition with one another. above what is estimated to be received if the The new resource royalty represents a reason- previous arrangements continued. This is in able balance between satisfying the community addition to the $20.3 million received in interest in sharing in the benefits of a profitable 1984-85 as compensation for royalties foregone petroleum project and at the same time provid- in the past. ing private companies with adequate rewards In terms of the State's share of total Govern- and incentives. Increased production from Bar- ment mineral revenues collected from Barrow row Island, encouraged by the new arrange- Island, the 25 per cent share of the resource ments, is expected to increase revenues to all rent royalty to, be retained by the State com- parties and in this respect the State Govern- 3939 3938[ASSEMBLY] ment's share of revenues from the project has My comments on this Bill are in two been considerably enhanced by the arrange- categories. Firstly, there are some significant ments. differences between this and other agreement I commend the Bill to the House. Acts relative to resource projects. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Peter The first matter to which I refer is that it is Jones. different from other agreements because it is not titled in quite the same way, in terms of WESTERN MINING CORPORATION nominating the actual resource at its comn- LIMITED (THROSSELL RANGE) mencement. This resource agreement Act, and AGREEMENT BILL in particular the matter which I have discussed and been kept informed about, relates to the Second Reading number of times which are still left to the dis- State and which exceed, in quite Debate resumed from 30 October. cretion of the a significant way, some of the matters which MR PETER JONES (Narrogin) [3.27 p.m.J: normally would be addressed, had a project This Bill seeks the approval of the Parliament been proven, or a resource in fact been estab- to ratify the agreement made between the State lished and development occurred. Government and Western Mining Corporation Limited in regard to an ore deposit some 200 I admit development has taken place, which kilometres south-east of Marble Bar, and is is not exactly the normal situation, because supported by the Opposition. there are far more agreements which relate to projects and ore bodies and deposits which It relates to a deposit which enjoys the entic- have not been developed- indeed, the iron ore ing title of "Nifty". I notice that the Minister, industry is littered with them. In this case, a in his second reading speech, said it was given much shorter period than normal will apply. the name after his colleague in another place, Hon. Mark Neville. The agreement Act provides for an extension A Government member: "Nifty Nevill", as of one year should the Minister determine and in Neville Wran. I have not the slightest doubt that if the situ- at ion does so decree, that extension would be Mr PETER JONES: I am only referring to granted. However, there are a significant num- the Minister's speech. However, there are very ber of matters that are still left to the discretion few points I wish to make about this agreement of the State. except to support what has been achieved in securing tenure for the company to continue its I can accept that the very nature of agree- activities regardless of the effects of the Mining ments dictate that this sort of arrangement Act, which would require it to relinquish and should prevail; notwithstanding that, I draw indeed vacate the area were it not for some this to the attention of the Parliament so that at special arrangement which this Parliament will least members are aware that situations do vary undoubtedly approve. and that these are not matters which are resting at ease It is also worthy of note that this deposit is where the company is concerned. currently unviable. Indeed, I understand from the company that no ore body has yet been While I can undestand why this is so, it is at proven, although there are statistics relating to least worthwhile placing it on the record. It certain tonnages, qualities, and so on. There is concerns royalties. A company which is still a long way to go and there needs to be embarking upon an exploration programme to some considerable expenditure, which this prove-up a resource and to determine whether agreement will allow the company to make it has potential is given an agreement which without any impediments that otherwise might provides it with the security of tenure to enable apply should the Mining Act provisions be the company to carry out its developments. enforced. This one comes under the Mining Act and schedules. The deposit has some characteristics similar to Mt Isa. It contains silver, lead and zinc in In other words, in relation to that there is a the host body and there needs to be very con- whole range of matters within the agreement siderable assessment of the ore body before for which the Government is already occupying anything further can be undertaken. the high ground. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 333939

Another matter to which I refer relates to the make it quite clear-and this only makes pub- prior approval of the Minister relative to an lic arrangements that I have already entered assignment, which is again different from other into-that there is a need for a reassessment of agreements. The Government in this particular some of those matters relative to this particular agreement Act is embarking upon new ground. situation. I would like to emphasise again that I under- I have nothing more to add except to say that stand that this type of agreement has not been the Opposition supports the agreement, and embarked upon before in terms of tenure, the that we trust the company is rewarded in its length of the agreement and the reasons for it endeavours to determine what it seeks to do. I being brought here. There may never be a proj- think it is a very satisfactory arrangement in ect in the terms that the Minister and I talked order to provide for the exploration activities about yesterday, and I doubt that there ever that will follow the passage of this agreement. could be one. Certainly the proposals in the Act and schedule in relation to the townsite and so MR PARKER (Fremantle-Minister for on cause me such scepticism that I am going to Minerals and Energy) [3.37 p.m.]: I thank the totally ignore them because I do not think they member for Narrogin and the Opposition gen- will have any value. erally for its support of the Bill. The member for Narrogin is quite right in saying that this However, there are other matters of concern Bill is quite substantially different from pre- to both the company and the Government. The vious resource development agreements in this company has agreed to what has been asked of State. As I said in my second reading speech, it it for a simple reason: There is no proven ore is the first of its type. Under normal circum- body. The company's advice to me, and the stances,' with resource development agree- reports that I have read, indicate that there is ments, a company or a consortium of no proven ore body in terms of a resource companies would approach the Government which would justify a project, certainly not in with a resource that they had already ident- the current economic climate and probably not ified, discovered, bought, or whatever, which within the life of this agreement. they wanted to develop in a particular way. I am aware that in the first instance this They probably discovered it using the provisions of normal legislation in the State-the could be extended with the stroke of a pen,' Petroleum Act or the Mining Act-and they with the Minister's agreement, and it can certainly be extended for a set period with the have identified a particular resource and de- approval of the Parliament, which may well be cided to develop it in a certain way. Conse- the case in time to come. quently they have approached the State with proposals as to how the existing resources The point that I want to place on the record should be developed. is this: Should a resource be proven and a particular project be seen to be viable in the light In this case we are not quite in that position. of the international commodity market and the We do have a resource which has been conditions prevailing at that time, whenever discovered-the Nifty copper deposit-and I that time might be. the details of this agree- understand that that resource, in terms of cop- ment, and its requirements and matters which per alone, in the appropriate economic circum- are contained presently in the agreement, will stances-which, as the member for Narrogin is be renegotiated. I have discussed in some detail aware, do not exist at present-could be deve- with the company what the reality of this loped to provide 60 000 tonnes of copper con- position might be, and whether it has been centrate a year. However, the price of copper agreed that that will be so in the light of the being what it is and the location of the mine circumstances prevailing then. I hasten to add being where it is, it is highly unlikely that that that that might well be what is currently in the alone would be sufficient for the development mind of the Minister; I do not know but the of a project. Parliament is not being asked to discuss what is The company, however, is very confident. I in the mind of the Minister. We are being asked have visited the site and seen some of the drill- to discuss what is contained within an existing ing cores which have been taken by the agreement. It is not an acceptable basis upon company. I do not know whether the member which to base a project should the ore body be for Narrogin had the opportunity to view some proven in such quantity, value and quality and of these cores when he was discussing the mat- the international commodity market and mar- ter with the company. The company has cores keting agreements be such that a project like in one area of the deposit one of which, from this could be contemplated. I would like to memory, is a 10-metre section at 15 per cent 3940 3940ASSEMBLY] copper, and while the other is a I 5-metre sec- stances allow for development. It makes it a tion at I0 per cent copper. It is extraordinary substantially different kind of resource devel- that when one looks at a core it looks like a opment agreement than those which have pre- brass rod. The copper concentrate is very high viously been passed. but unfortunately it is not quite as homogenous as one would like. Certainly if it had been at Although the Government is very confident those levels throughout the ore body the in the bona fides of Western Mining Corpor- company would be out mining at the moment. ation it does not want to set a precedent. As a However it is not in that position, so the result, the assignment question was one which company is hoping to develop areas for more was introduced because, under normal circum- copper and other base metals. The company is stances as the member for Narrogin would confident-as are the geologists to whom I know, the MiningAct states that for the first 12 spoke on site and the people from the months there is no ability to assign without the company's corporate headquarters-that it has permission of the Minister, but after that there in fact what will be a major base metal prov- is a prima facie ability to assign. The Govern- ince in this region. ment did not want to create a precedent where a security of tenure over a particular area was Indeed, that is not only Western Mining's given to a company for the purpose of creating view but also other tenements are held by an asset that could then be traded. I am not companies like CRA, Duval, Newmont talking about the creation of an asset which can Holdings Ply Ltd and others: they too obvi- be traded, but I am talking about the creation ously have great confidence in the potential of of the ability of a company to explore a particu- this region. lar region. There is a difference; that is, that the Under the existing Mining Act in the case of assignment must have the prior consent of the minerals, the company would prove up its de- Minister which is different from the position posit and then come to the Government with under the Mining Act. its development agreement. In this case, the Mining Act does not envisage the intensity of The Government believes that given the the exploration programme which will be special circumstances that it is creating, and in undertaken by Western Mining and that is the view of the fact that undoubtedly other reason for this agreement. It does not envisage companies will look at the agreement and at the logistical difficulties about exploring in this some time in the future come to the Govern- area. The logistical difficulties are created ment with a request for a similar agreement, it partly by the size of the exploration region and did not want there to be any doubt that it was partly by the nature of the ground surface creating these circumstances generally or in which sometimes has a considerable amount of such a way that would simply allow capital rais- overburden. The normal way in which one ing or other forms of trading. would make assessments about which part of The Government believes that this is a the exploration licences were to be dropped are unique agreement. It contains many differences not available and it has become difficult for the and it has departed in substantial ways from company to know how to pursue the regional those things which were envisaged under the geology. Mining Act. For that reason, it is a sensitive One of the important things about this proj- agreement because all the mining companies ect, as I am sure the member for Narrogin watch like hawks the treatment that other would agree, is that there is probably no better companies are given by the Government. company in Australia or in the world to undertake these exploration activities than Western The Government has established distinct cir- Mining Corporation Ltd. My officers in Geo- cumstances regarding this agreement and, of logical Survey were confident that Western course, it has ensured in its wording that unfor- Mining meant what it said when it indicated tunate precedents are not set in the agreement that it would go ahead to explore this region in should the Government decide at a future stage such a comprehensive way. that other enterprises of this type are to be It is true there will be a need for further treated in the same way. The Bill represents a negotiations and the Bill sets out the areas in new direction, but it is one which deserves the which there will be further negotiation if the support of the House. company finds a resource that it wants to de- Question put and passed. velop, or even if it finds a resource it wants to hold for a period until the economic circum- Bill read a second time. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 394134

In Comilnitu'e. etc. and it is also the widespread view of local Bill passed through Committee without de- government that it is a broad field of endeav- bate, reported without amendment, and the re- our in which to be involved. port adopted. By rejecting this proposal, the Liberal Party is indicating that it is out of step with the aspir- Third Reading ations of local government. It is no secret Bill read a third time, on motion by Mr around the political scene that Liberal Party Parker (Minister for Minerals and Energy), and members have been asking prominent people transmitted to the Council. in local government for advice on how to get back into local government, how to recapture favour with it. It wants to recapture that situ- LOCAL GOVERNMENT AMENDMENT ation which existed a number of years ago B ILL (No2) when the Liberal Party was substantially in step Councils Amiendmnents with local government. It is also no secret that Amendments made by the Council now con- advice has been given to prominent people in sidered. the Liberal Party by local government people as to the issues that are important to local govern- In Comiuiee ment. The rejection of this proposal is a clear indication that the Liberal Party is not pre- The Chairman of Committees (Mr Barnett) pared to take the advice that is being given. in the Chair; Mr Carr (Minister for Local That is very disappointing. Government) in charge of the Bill. I make it clear that the Government and I The amendments made by the Council were as take this amendment very seriously. The pro- follows- posal that it is sought to delete-the proposal No. 1. to allow local governments to engage in community welfare services-was a major part of Clause 25. the Bill. We still see it as being a major part of Page 19, lines l0 o 13-To de- the Bill. It is true that the Bill contains a large lete subparagraph (ii). number of separate items, but those separate No. 2. items come together with a consistency that runs right through the Bill. The tenor and the Clause 25. theme of that consistency is to upgrade the re- Page 19, lines 24 and 25-To sponsibility of local government and give it delete proposed paragraph (e). greater autonomy and greater opportunity to Mr CARR: I move- make the decisions that it believes are best in the interests of the people who live in each of That amendments Nos. I and 2 made by those 139 communities around the State. the Council be not agreed to. This proposal is an integral part of that wish I consider the amendments proposed by the to give local government greater autonomy. It Legislative Council to be very disappointing. It is not prescriptive in any way. It is merely an is regrettable, at a time when it is in the extension of the powers of local government to interests of local government for there to be make more decisions locally concerning local seen to be a consensus at State Government people. I cannot think of a more important area level towards initiatives being taken in local of concern to local people than the provision of government, that the decision of the Legislative community welfare facilities. I make it very Council, particularly the Liberal members in clear to the Committee that we do not see this that place, is to delete certain subelauses of the amendment as minor. We see it as a major Bill. It indicates that the Liberal Party in this amendment which impinges very much on the place is out of step with the wishes and aspir- integrity of the Bill. ations of local government and this applies not A few points need to be made in defence of only at a State level, but also at a national level. our Bill and in opposition to this amendment. At a national level and in almost all States First, a great deal of activity is already being there is substantial participation by local undertaken by local governments in providing government community welfare services and community welfare services which are of very facilities for their respective communities. In doubtful legality. Many of the councils in this Western Australia there is a significant partici- State-in particular, most of the major metro- pation by local government in similar services polIitan cou ncis-are engaged in a range of ser- 3942 3942ASS EM BLYJ

vices which take on great importance to the bus and it has paid supervisors for autumn people in their communities. It is most unfor- centres. It runs a podiatry service. It also has a tunate that this amendment says clearly that coordinator of those services through a contact the Parliament does not accept the legality of desk. the activities undertaken by those councils. The third council contacted was the Canning The Government is setting out to say that it City Council. The first thing this council believes that what these councils are doing is indicated was that it has an annual social wel- appropriate and correct; it wants to formalise fare budget of $5163aoo. clearly indicating that those activities and give them legal standing. If welfare services are a major part of an urban the amendment as proposed is agreed to we metropolitan council. The Canning City Coun- will be clearly saying, in effect, that we believe cil employs a full-time social welfare officer, the activities undertaken by those councils are has two pant-time welfare officers plus an ad- not legal. Today I had an officer in my office ministrative officer. It advises that it is mainly phone three of the major councils in this State involved with the welfare needs of aged per- to get a summary of the activities they engage sons. It also deals with local social problems. It in what could be called community welfare ser- provides a community bus with a voluntary vices. The list is a very long one, even from driver scheme. It also provides meals on wheels only three councils. and cooperates with the community Youth The first council listed its services under Support Scheme. It runs frail aged centres and aged services, youth services and general ser- has two resident aged persons' homes which are vices. With respect to aged services it indicated run by the city. that it has a welfare officer; it runs a frail aged Those three metropolitan councils are fairly lodge; it provides meals on wheels; it has a typical of those in metropolitan Perth. Quite social centre;, and it runs 12 low income units. obviously, many smaller councils in the It also has other aged persons' units which are country would not have that range of welfare resident funded. With respect to youth ser- services, but I believe the point is clearly made vices, it has a youth housing officer and an that a large range of welfare services is already accommodation officer and is in the process of being provided by local governments in this purchasing a youth lodging house. Under the Scare. We want to encourage the provision of general services heading, it has a one parent those services as an appropriate field of action centre as a joint venture with the State Govern- for local government. We want to remove any ment and it runs a women's refuge. It has a legal doubts as to the undertaking of those ac- financial advice service with two advisers. It tivities by local government. It is disappointing has a community housing officer, an Aboriginal to find thyi the Opposition opposes that Worker and two lodging houses. That whole objective. range of activities that can be grouped as community welfare services is undertaken by that I make one last point about the services be- one metropolitan council. ing provided at present. As can be seen from the list of services being provided by local Mr Clarko: Would you care to name the governments, most of them relate to elderly council? people. Mr CARR: I do not suppose there is anything wrong with naming the council. That was the I refer also to important inquiries that have Fremantle City Council. been undertaken in the last few years which support the initiative being proposed by the Mr Clarko: That does not surprise me. I Government. I refer, first, to the O'Meara re- thought it would have to be. port. This inquiry was established in 1981 by Mr CARR. It will be of interest to the mem- the then Court Government. It was instructed ber for Karrinyup that I now turn to the second to report into the provision of welfare services council that was phoned. I am sure he would by local government in Western Australia. It not say that it was similar in its political com- was not a Labor committee; it was appointed plexion to the Fremantle council. by the Court Liberal Government. it I refer to the Stirling City Council, the largest recommended- council in the State. The Stirling City Council That the enabling clauses in legislation also provides a women's refuge. It runs a for local government involvement in wel- kitchen for the Meals on Wheels service. It has fare be consolidated in the Local Govern- .two Social workers who deal mainly with aged menit Act (Western Australia) and the people. It makes a donation to a community adoption of a general clause similar to: [Thursday, 7 November 19851 394334

"The council of any municipality may report appointed by the previous Liberal apply out of the municipal revenue a sum Government, the present Government of money for the provision of any social appointed a committee headed by Ms Carter to services for the benefit of the people of the inquire into welfare services. That report was municipality". brought down in 1984 under the title "The Those are not the words we have inserted in Wellbeing of the People". Similarly, that report the Bill. The clause in the Bill under dispute at recommended, and I quote- the moment in effect achieves exactly what was That the Local Government Act be recommended by the O'Meara committee amended to provide local authorities with appointed by the previous Liberal Govern- a general competence and the option to ment. In the text of the O'Meara committee's engage in the provision of welfare services report it quoted the Liberal Party policy in funded from municipal and other sources. Western Australia as supporting the extensi on I emphasise the point; the proposal being ar- of welfare services. The Liberal Party has gued is not some wild and woolly Labor Party changed its position substantially since 198 1. I dogma, it is a very widely-accepted view which quote from the O'Meara report in which refer- has been agreed to by successive committees of ence is made to the document entitled "Liberal inquiry appointed by successive Governments. Policy for the Eighties"- It makes it clear that two things can happen: The Liberal Party in Western Australia Local government can choose to spend its own expresses great confidence in the role of revenue resources in welfare matters or it can Local Government authorities in the social be involved in coordinated arrangements with welfare area in their policy document, departments or sources other than those such 'Liberal Policy for the Eighties', "We be- as State Government departments, to provide a lieve the time may well have come when service. In addition to the two reports the pioneer work of the State, (in com- undertaken in Western Australia, I refer to the munity welfare) co-ordinated from Perth, report of the national inquiry into local govern- can be progressively replaced at Local ment finance known as the Self committee re- Government level. Our major concern is to port which has been released in the last two ensure that local initiative is not lost . .. weeks or so. This committee report stresses the We will undertake an immediate need for local government involvement in de- reassessment of the appropriate future di- cision-making affecting residents. It makes the rection of localised community welfare ser- point that,' over a period, local governments vices. We will investigate the potential for have had less say in the provision of services to local authorities to take over the work on their community because State and Federal an individual or co-ordinated regional bodies in many cases have simply imposed a basis aided by State Funds." structure which local government has had to fit That policy actually goes further than the Bill in underneath. The Self committee report does. The Liberal Party policy states that local strongly makes the point that local government government should take over more of the pre- should have greater involvement in deciding viously State-contIrolled welfare services. The what should be the means of provision of ser- Government is not going that far. We are say- vices at the local level. ing that we want to Formalise an option for I make the point that the Government be- local government to decide to be involved in lieves that local governments are the level of providing welfare services if it so chooses. We government closest to the people. That cliche obviously expect that to be closely coordinated has been around for a long time and it has been with the State Government, but we do not say used by different people to mean different that local government should take it over from things or to suit different purposes. There is no the State Government. The Liberal Party pol- doubt that in local communities-which vary icy document stated that local government perhaps from a few hundred residents to should take over more of the previously 160 000-albeit there are some large councils, State-controlled welfare services and to follow local governments have greater proximity to that we have the Opposition in this Parliament the problems and a greater opportunity to as- voting against what is clearly its own policy. I sess the problems at the point of the problem. I find that most peculiar. cannot stress too strongly that local govern- That is not the only inquiry carried out into ment is the sphere of government which is best welfare services in Western Australia in recent able to assess exactly the needs of the com- years. In addition to the O'Meara committee munity. 3944 3944[ASSEMBLY]

I also stress, as I did earlier, the autonomy because that list which was appropriate today aspect. We are talking about local decision would not be appropriate in a couple of weeks. making and that is the whole purpose behind It would not be any good as a list because we the Bill. This aspect is a particularly relevant have many different communities in WA. Ser- part of the Bill in that argument for greater vices that are appropriate in one council may autonomy and more local decision-making. be totally inappropriate in another council. For I stress to the Committee that the proposal is example, the major urban councils have very purely an optional one; there is nothing in the different demands from some of the rural coun- Bill that says local governments must spend cils. It is totally impractical to try to define money in any particular way whatsoever. Local what are community welfare services. governments are accountable to their electors I support the concept of a general head of to a greater extent than they have ever been power, stressing the optional nature of that and because of the electoral reform introduced in the accountability of the local authority making the last couple of years. Therefore, they should the decision. Welfare services cover a wide have the option to choose to spend money in field and involve State and Federal Govern- this way if they wish, or to choose not to. ments as well. Welfare services involve major items of expenditure such as pensions and un- The proposal is supported by the associ- employment benefits right down to the ations of local government. When I last met humblest local service such as meals on wheels. with the local government liaison commit tee, which is made up of senior persons in each of That leads me to the second argument made the associations of local government, we had against this legislation and that is the fear of copies of the Bill before us for discussion. The duplication and the possibility that three liaison committee raised only three points of spheres of government will all do the same query with the whole Bill. We were able to thing. I do not think that is at all likely because satisfactorily deal with those three points at the funding will rule that out. What is happening in time and none of those points in any way re- practice and what will continue to happen is lated to the measure before us. One related to that local authorities will make decisions to fill the consolidation of rolls, one to the possible gaps they see in their local communities. We anomaly of sections 514A and 514B,' and the will not see local authorities paying pensions third to the time for an electors' meeting. At no and unemployment benefits or any major ex- point in the meeting was any suggestion made penditure which is clearly within the province of concern about this measure. of the national or State Governments. They will move in to fill up what they perceive to be I am aware that at least one of the associ- gaps in their regions. They will not be able to ations of local government has responded to emulate the other two spheres of government the Legislative Council decision the other night and we will not see a problem of duplication. by expressing its strong disappointment about the measure taken in that place. The strong This is a very important issue and I hope the view was expressed that the measure under dis- Opposition here firstly will reconsider its pute at the moment is a measure that should be position and be prepared to accept that there retained in the legislation. are valid arguments in support of the legislation and be prepared to withdraw any oppo- Of course, the liaison committee and the as- sition to the measure. I hope also that when the sociations of local government are very Bill is returned to the Legislative Council, the impressed at the range of other measures in the Opposition members there will be responsive Bill, and I know there would be considerable to the arguments that have been put forward sorrow and annoyance in local government if and will recognise this as being a measure in the outcome of the deliberations were to be the long-term interests of local government. that other measures would be lost because of an I see this measure as being a test for the argument over this provision of the Bill. Liberal Party in terms of its relations with local I have heard only two arguments raised government. As I said at the beginning of my against the proposal. One is the argument that remarks, the Liberal Party has got itself out of says it is difficult to define exactly what we step with local government and is trying to get mean by community welfare services, and that back in touch with it so that they can move in clearly is an accepted fact. We could make up a unison; but if it wants to be highly regarded by list of items that we might say were to be local government it must be prepared to re- agreed to as pan of a community welfare ex- spond to the wishes and aspirations of local pansion, but that would not get us anywhere government. [Thursday,?7 November 1985] 394594

I am opposed to the amendments moved by welfare services and because it has not defined the Legislative Council. them it makes its position more difficult to Mr CLARKO: At the outset I indicate my defend. support for these amendments moved by the It is unfortunate that the Minister has now Legislative Council, and it is quite natural I left the Chamber, although he has no doubt should say that because I moved in this direc- done so for good reason. I say in passing that it tion when the Bill was first before the is also unfortunate that I have just 15 minutes Chamber. This measure is specifically related in which to speak while the Minister had un- to the question of what powers local authorities limited time. It is unfortunate that our Stand- should have. How should the Local Govern- ing Orders mean that this is the case. ment Act be constructed? If local government Mr Tonkin: Will you move to change this in is to be given general competence powers in the the next Parliament? field of community welfare the whole issue i s raised as Mr CLARKO: I take that as a quick political to whether local authorities should be response and I accept it as such. What I am given complete autonomy in specific areas in saying is that with other parliamentary debat- contrast to what now applies. I point out to the ing issues the Minister quite properly has un- Committee that when the legislation first went limited time as lead speaker as does the lead through the Chamber, the Minister did not de- speaker for the Opposition. Unfortunately in scribe this as being an example of general com- this situation I have just I15 minutes. In ad- petence. We get ourselves into something of a dilemma if we decide to provide local dition, the Minister has all his officers assisting him in the preparation of his speech and also authorities with general competence in the field of welfare but not elsewhere. I will expand on knows when this legislation is to come on. this point later. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I remind the member that he gave leave for the two amendments For those who are not aware of the exi sting to be debated together. Had he not done that he situation in local government, the present situ- would have had half an hour. ation is that a council may do what is specified in the Local Government Act. It cannot legally Mr CLARKO: I knew I was making a con- go beyond what is specified in the Act; if it does cession; even so it would be much fairer if the it is ultra lires the Act and is therefore auto- Opposition lead speaker also had unlimited matically acting illegally. Some people in WA time. are pressing for a Bill based on general com- Community welfare services are not defined petence, and I take it these idealists want gen- and we have a situation where we cannot dis- eral competence in the whole of the Local tinguish between a service which we can treat Government Act. as some form of assistance in kind, and support What we have before us is a proposition that in the form of money. councils should have unlimited power to intro- It seems to me that if this Bill becomes law duce and operate any type of community wel- there is nothing to stop a council giving a welfare service they wish to provide. The Bill fails fare recipient-say, a person in Fremantle who to define community welfare services and I is destitute-$20 out of the city council's cash. find unacceptable the argument of the Minister Once one accepts the fact that the Fremantle in another place who said that this is not de- City Council, or any other council, can give a fined in New South Wales. So what? We could destitute person $20 in cash one opens the way change the whole face of legislation in WA if to a system of topping up all the welfare pro- we decided to do away with that clause which is grammes of Western Australia. If the generally No. 2 or 3 in any Bill and is headed Fremantle City Council felt the aged and "Definitions" and which sets down, as is quite invalid pension was not high enough there the logical thing to do. the meaning of words would be nothing to stop it giving recipients of and phrases. That is not done here. that pension an extra $50 a week. I pointed out in the general debate on the Bill The same would apply to unemployment a week or two ago that this failure to define benefits. It could also be done with all existing community welfare services was either acciden- Commonwealth and State welfare programmes. tal, in which case it was to be condemned, or it A council which had the mind and financial was deliberate, in which case it was so as to resources and was prepared to bleed its hide certain things. The Opposition makes long-suffering ratepayers could introduce a new special play of the fact that the Government battery of welfare services. We could get the has not defined the meaning of community whole Scandinavian package if we wanted to. I 3946 3946[ASSEMBLY] went through the telephone book and looked ment could have service stations, delicatessens, up the welfare services provided by the Depart- supermarkets and shopping centres. They could ment of Social Security, which is a Common- all be operated by our kindly local government. wealth body, and the State Department for If the Government proposes that councils Community Services. Councils could decide to should have general competence to do those give additional money and assistance in re- things would it let councils have general com- lation to unemployment, rehabilitation, vet- petence to decide who should vote? A council erans, and community aid programmes-I may decide that only ratepayers should vote. have mentioned the topping up of age and That would be a general competence power. A invalid pensions. A council could give ad- council could decide who should be eligible to ditional help in relation to child services, vote; it may decide that one could only be a health services, and sickness benefits. A council councillor if one was a property owner. If the could Provide a hospital if it wished to. It could Government wishes it could give local govern- also provide disability services, domiciliary ment general competence powers in nursing care, home and community care, nurs- fund-raising and allow councils to put tolls on ing homes, and council housing. the local roads they have built, so that if any- A council could have a housing programme one drives through a local authority he has to stop at the tollgate and pay because he is not a under which it gave people assistance with a Council could even make residents deposit for a home. It could also give an ratepayer. interest subsidy or rent support. Councils could pay the toll, too. add to the family allowance, give family in- That is the logical extension of a complete come supplements and provide additional general competence power in local government funds for supporting parents or widows. in Western Australia. Unlimited welfare Alternatively, a council could extend that list in powers for local authorities would mean dupli- an unlimited way to provide welfare to the cation or triplication of existing programmes. people of its district. I understand that because Those three words, "community welfare ser- Fremantle has a relatively extended welfare vices" in no way inhibit local authorities from programme people come from adjacent areas duplicating or triplicating welfare services. It and claim on that counci!'s welfare pro- would bear very unfairly on ratepayers because gramme. I believe that is something of a prob- they pay about half the cost of running local lem for the Fremantle City Council, and it does authorities. They also pay Federal and State not surprise me. taxes. The cost of the welfare programmes will fall unevenly and unfairly on ratepayers. Mr Carr: If that is true it extends to every When this matter was debated previously I service and facility provided by a regional asked the Minister to state the local councils centre such as Fremantle. who had written to him and said, "We cannot carry out these welfare matters. and we want Mr CLARKO: I think it is a weakness of the to." I have been speaking to some people in system. local authorities in the brief time I have had to We are amending section 446 of the Local take up this matter, and I have asked people in Government Act which contains a list of things key authorities whether they have a welfare which can be done. The Liberal Party is not problem. Those people who represent a very opposed to all forms of welfare in local govern- significant pant of the population of the metro- ment. We support the concept, but we say it politan area said, " No". should be done when there is a demonstrated In his speech the Minister seemed to hint need and a proven case. It should be minimal, that if this matter was not agreed to by the and the situation should not arise where local Legislative Council it could jeopardise the government could move into all areas of wel- whole Bill. He should say to the Committee fare. If we are going to give general competence whether he will allow the whole Bill to lapse if in the field of welfare this Government should the Legislative Council insists on its amend- say whether it is prepared to bring in a Bill to ment. He should say whether he is Prepared to do that in all fields. Will the Government cre- go to those lengths. It can only be described as ate a situation which will enable councils to blackmail and bullying of the worst kind. I develop all sorts of operations? It could take us would respect him if he came out and said, "I back to the dark days of the early pant of this want this community welfare service matter in century when the State Government had hotels the Bill and if it is not passed I will not proceed and butcher shops and the like. Local govern- with the Bill." He will fly completely in the face (Thursday, 7 November 1985] 343947 of the reputation he has built up if he ducks the amendments proposed by the Opposition. I do issue and is not prepared to say that or believe, therefore, that it could be argued by alternatively if he is prepared to bully the Op- the Government that the Opposition has been position. Then councils would need to re- obstructive in its dealing with the Bill. address their judgment of the Minister. They When this clause was discussed some two or hold him in high respect for what he has done. three weeks ago, the shadow Minister, the but this is where the buck stops. member for Karrinyup, made it clear that there In regard to where the Liberal Party stands was a problem in the lack of definition of wel- on welfare in local government, I have fare services. That problem has not been indicated that an opportunity exists in section redressed. All we can do is go back to the Min- 446 of the Act to add other areas. That section ister's comments when he spoke in the Com- has been added to over a number of years, and mittee stage to see what he considered were the Bill itself adds certain matters to that list. it welfare services. It is fair to say that it was does not mean to say that desirable welfare generally agreed that welfare services could be matters cannot be attended to by local govern- almost anything that a council wanted to deem ment. welfare services to be. So, it was a pretty broad area with which we were dealing. The mere fact I believe that we are dealing with Labor that we have not adequately defined welfare Party policy. The Labor Party is very keen for services causes some stress to the Opposition. local government to expand because it believes in big government. Labor wants to take matters I am interested in finding out which local out of an individual's hands: it wants 10 take authorities asked the Minister for Local the decision-making power away from ordinary Government to introduce the amendment. I cit izens and private enterprise. It is Labor's have spoken to councillors representing the philosophy to allow government to get bigger City of Stirling, the City of Wanneroo, and the and do more things. Naturally that would suit City of Perth. They have told me that under the the Labor Party because it is in its policy. present provisions of the Act they have no problem in their dealings in this area. I am Mr Carr: Didn't you hear me quote from the surprised that the Minister has said in this Liberal Party's policy? House that he believes that local authorities in Mr CLARKO: Yes, but the bits the Minister Western Australia may be in breach of the law referred to said there should be an opportunity when they provide services such as Meals on for some matters to be taken over from the Wheels, podiatry services, senior citizens build- State by local government. That is quite differ- ings or other facilities which are generally con- ent. There would not be duplication if services sidered to be welfare services, If we are trying passed from the State to local authorities. That to redress a situation that is clearly illegal, I is a specific case that can be looked at. and we think it is up to the Minister to tell us- -did that in relation to doctors. We agreed that If that is the case, it is also necessary for us to local authorities in the country should be able define clearly where we are going in respect of to buy houses so that doctors could go there community welfare services because the Minis- who otherwise could not afford to do so ter is wrong when he tries to intimate that the financially. Liberal Party is opposed to the provision of Mr CASH: I oppose the motion moved by welfare services. That is untrue. The Liberal the Minister which seeks to disallow the Party has a very proud record of recognising amendments proposed by the Legislative the need for welfare services in this State and Council. I think it has to be agreed by the throughout the Commonwealth and will con- Chamber that, when the Minister introduced tinue to see that those services are provided. the Bill into the House some weeks ago, it was The question that the Opposition asks is who generally considered to be a Bill that would will provide these services. advantage local government. There were some At the moment, three areas of government areas in which the Opposition expressed con- are trying to provide what, at times, are the cern. However, in general terms the Opposition same services-the Federal and State Govern- worked very closely with the Government and ments and now local government. If that is the with the Minister in particular in such areas as case-there are clear examples of that the delegation of authority, the impounding of occuring-public funds are being misused. goods, and the authority to provide for ad- That is not something which the Opposition is ditional eating areas in public places. Those prepared to support.I put the argument that, if provisions were passed by the Chamber with local government is to continue to work in the 3948 3948[ASSEMBLY] area of welfare, it should act as a facilitator this Parliament. I am not suggesting that local rather than as a provider of the services. By government should run to the Minister every that I mean that local government should act as time it wants a decision made. That is the the agent for either the State or Commonwealth reason that I spoke in favour of the delegation Governments and the finance for the services of authority clauses contained in the Bill that is that it will facilitate will be provided by either now under discussion the State or the Federal Governments. in that I was pleased to see that greater autonomy way, there will be a better coordination for the was given to local government. However, I say moneys spent. I think it would be possible to to the Minister that encouraging local govern- argue that there would also be less wastage of mnent to get into the general area of welfare is public funds. The duplication or triplication, It.kely to cause a duplication or a triplication of therefore, of existing welfare services is some- services and a wastage of public funds. Ilam not thing that certainly concerns me and I know prepared to accept that as a reasonable concerns other members of the Opposition. proposition. l am not arguing that local govern- I draw the Minister's attention to section ment should not be involved in welfare. How- 529(e) of the principal Act. That Section ever, I am suggesting that there is a need to states- facilitate welfare services but not necessarily to provide them. The problem that the Minister A council is authorized to expend money has is identifying for local government who will out of its municipal fund- pay for the services that it may wish to provide. It is easy for the Minister to say that if a coun- (e) in any other manner authorized for cil makes a mistake in the provision of welfare the time being by the Minister. services, the ratepayers will be able to vote that it seems to me that that provision in the Local council out at the next annual election. How- Government Act is enough to overcome some ever, I suggest that that accountability is not of the problems which the Minister suggested good enough. What we need is responsibility. It might occur if one were to take the literal would be quite wrong to allow local govern- meaning of the law in respect of the provision ment or to encourage local government to of welfare services. move into that area without adequate accountability. Mr Troy: Do you want to leave local government under the thumb? I make the point once again to the Minister that I am not opposed to the provision of wel- Mr CASH: The member for Mundaring's in- fare services. I do not believe that many mem- terpretation is wrong. While he claims some bers of the Opposition would say that they were experience in local government, it is probably opposed to the provision of welfare services per not sufficient. No-one wants local government se. However, many would say that there is a to be under the Minister's thumb. What I am need to co-ordinate welfare services and a need arguing is that there is a need for accountability to work out where funds will come from to and, unless there is some form of account- finance those services so that we do not find ability, there is a very real opportunity for the ourselves wasting public money. misuse and wastage of ratepayers' funds. I do not think even the member for Mundaring I have said before, and I will continue to say would support that. it, that local government is a very good dis- tributor of welfare, recognising the local needs Mr Carr: Who should local government be of a particular community; but the provision accountable to-the electors or the Minis- and financing of those services really belongs to ter? You are saying, by relying on that section both the State and Federal Governments. Ac- of the Act, that it should be accountable to the cordingly, I oppose the motion moved by the Minister. That is where the two parties differ. Minister for Local Government. We believe local government should be ac- Mr MENSAROS: I have listened with countable to the electors. interest to the more philosophical principles Mr CASH: I believe local government should espoused by the Minister, the member for be accountable to the ratepayers. That is judged Karrinyup. and the member for Mt Lawley. on an annual basis at the municipal elections in In principle. I would not be opposed at all to May of each year. Secondly. I believe it should community services or any other necessary be accountable to the Minister for other actions power of government being executed by local through the year, and, through the Minister, to government. In itself it could be questioned [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 394994 whether there is a need for community services simply express this philosophy and give it as to be executed by Governments instead of by my reason for supporting the Council's amend- independent voluntary organisations which, I ment. think, could execute them much better and in a much more human and less costly way. Mr STEPHENS: I indicate support for the motion before the Chair. This support is based Putting this aside, I would not be opposed to on my party's belief of autonomy for local local government doing any justified function government. of government. My philosophy is that if one has multi tiers of government as we have in We are all aware that when it comes to local Australia generally, the lowest tier should do government elections a very small percentage everything a Government has to do and leave of the people vote. One of the reasons for this is to the higher tier only those things it cannot do that the ratepayers have a perception that the under reasonable terms. That is democracy. councillors can do very little without the ap- The nearer the governed are to the governors or proval of Big Brother or the Minister in Perth. the Government of the day the better and there The more that concept can be reduced, the is more chance that the Government will greater will- be the turnout at voting. For this govern in the interests of the people-the reason, we strongly support more autonomy for governed. local government. The councillors are accountable to the ratepayers, or electors now with the There is one proviso to my philosophy. broadening of the roll, and if they use their Whatever local government, or any other powers in a way that upsets the electorate there Government does, it should pay for it and levy is no question that the people would flock to the cost itself. I will not go into detail as to how the polls and try to take Corrective action. This it should be levied; that could possibly be the has happened in one or two areas within my subject of an entirely different study. If it does electorate. Where a controversy has existed, not levy the cost of governing, it is not the there has been a tremendous turnout at the authority-to use the Minister's words-of lo- polls. I do not think we have to worry about cal government which is being enhanced or councillors being irresponsible or using the broadened because it is only a delegated power ratepayers' money irresponsibly. which is being given to the local government. Then the local government might look like a I believe that the community services are French prefecture. In France, of course, every more the province of State and Federal power is centralised but there is a widespread Governments, but there may be a circumstance decentralisation in delegating power. There is in which a council finds it desirable to be no authority whatsoever, but there is delegated involved in that field. Unfortunately, my mem- power. ory is not good enough to go back about three years, but I was made aware of a situation This wilt be the case if this amendment is not where a man was prepared to leave some of his accepted, because it only delegates a power property to a local office, with strings attached, which otherwise should, to my mind, really be- that it was to be used for specific purposes long to the Commonwealth Government be- outside the Act. I am sorry I cannot be more cause it is the one which collects the money. specific but it was three years ago. I have tried The income tax is collected by the Common- to contact the local authority for more details wealth Government. but have been unable to raise it on the phone. That was one situation where the local auth- It is a sad situation that half of the revenue of ority could have benefited if it had not been the State Government derives from the Com- circumscribed by the Act. monwealth Government. An increasing amount of local government revenue-it is not I know members could argue that section 529 yet half-derives from the Commonwealth and allows the council to refer to the Minister for to some extent from the State. That is an un- authority to expend moneys out of the munici- healthy situation. I am all for decent ral isation, pal fund in any other manner authorised for and I am all for giving more authority to the the time being by the Minister, but that is refer- lower tiers of government but it should not be ring it back to the Minister. Surely. councillors delegated authority where the funds are col- elected by the ratepayers should be given the lected from a higher tier of government. responsibility of making those decisions. If Whether they do it formally or not, it is im- they make the wrong decisions, the ratepayers. plied that strings are attached because that is the electors, can take corrective action at a sub- where the money comes from. I wanted to sequent stage. After all, that is the basis of our 3950 3950[ASSEMBLY] involvement in (his Parliament, and I cannot In the past welfare services have been sup- see why we cannot pursue the same principle plied by various organisations such as churches with regard to local government. and service clubs. Also the families of the people who needed welfare have assisted. In I support the motion moved by the Minister. this day and age there is more and more Mr BRADSHAW: I oppose this amendment. Government intervention in this area. If we I believe it is certainly not the prerogative of could put the onus back on to the people, as it shire councils to expand into the social welfare was in the past, we would provide better wel- agency system. It will bring more cost to the fare services at a much lower cost. taxpayers without necessarily being of great I oppose the amendment. benefit to them. If one ever offers something to someone, in general they will say, "Yes, it is a Mr CARR: I should briefly respond to a good idea", and they will generally go along couple of the comments raised during the de- with it. They tend to forget to relate it back to bate. I am disappointed with the attitude who is actually paying for these benefits. If it is shown by members opposite, with the excep- put in the form, "It will cost you in your rates tion of the member for Stirling and I thank him in one form or another, or in your taxes to have for his support. these extra benefits', a lot more people will It is humbug when people stand in the think a little harder about this. Chamber one after another and say that they When rate notices come out most people support local government providing welfare usually scream about them, and one always services but that they will vote against the hears people screaming about their taxes. One amendment which enables local government to of the main reasons that we are getting (axed at provide welfare services. They simply cannot a higher level is because of the situation where have it both ways. Members will not get away more and more social welfare is being with standing in this place and opposing provided. I am not totally opposed to welfare Government legislation because they do not agencies and welfare for the people of Western trust local government and have a paternalistic Australia or Australia, but it has to be a situ- attitude to it, and then going into the electorate ation where the benefit of the cost is apparent. and saying that they supported the idea of local government having powers to be involved in By allowing these councils to expand, once welfare services. Whatever might be the out- the powers are given to them over a number of come of this Bill, one thing is certain: I will years they will start going into social welfare. make it very widely known throughout local Obviously, if councillors decide to go to the government that the Government introduced councils with proposals that are a good thing, this proposal to extend the authority of local then one by one the councils will expand their government, to give it an opportunity to be activities More and more. Then there will be a engaged in welfare services, and to fo~rmalise bigger burden on the ratepayers in Western and legalise the activities in which it is Australia, which I certainly do not think is a presently engaged, and the Opposition would good thing. not have a bar of it and went to great pains to oppose it. The member for Stirling referred to a ratepayer in his electorate who some years ago MrThompson: Why are you turning nasty? wanted to donate a property. Again, the situ- Mr CARR: The member for Kalamunda ation could arise in which that property be- must expect that reaction when his colleagues came a burden on the ratepayers of that shire. stand in this place and do something so illogi- Many such donations which are free at the be- cal and contrary to the wishes of local govern- ginning. Finally cost the shire money. Other cir- ment. The Opposition would expect me to go cumstances exist of course and I can think of to local government and make it aware of the two examples in my electorate: In Waroona a actions the Opposition has taken. farmer died a few years ago and left his farm to the Waroona shire with the proviso that a The most worrying pant of the Opposition's dwelling was built on the property. That has action is the risk it poses for existing services. recently been done. Similarly, in the Harvey Let there be no doubt that the action of the shire a woman left her home and four or five Legislative Council in attempting to knock out acres of land to the shire. It is not that the local this proposal casts a dark cloud over a number authorities do not have the opportunity to take of existing services. It is all very well for the up these offers if they so wish. member for Mt Lawley to say that not a great [Thursday, 7 November 1985])95 3951 number of councils have asked for this legis- down the track. I am concerned that this dark lation. It is all very well for him to say that cloud is cast over some of the services supplied councils have had no trouble in this area. by local authorities. I will not argue that all the The reason is that local authorities have not services I listed are involved. The Act is a large, worried too much about the details of the Act convoluted Act and no doubt some lawyers and they have proceeded to get involved in this might well say that the councils have heads of area. Nothing has been done to stop them from power to do certain things. However, there is doing so and perhaps the Opposition sees that considerable doubt about a number of them. as an answer. I do not think the Opposition is being very responsible if it lets that situation go ahead. A On the other hand, a Minister, whether it is suggestion was made that a solution is provided me or any other Minister, has a responsibility in the Act where it is stated that a council can to ensure that the legislation under his or her spend money on anything with the Minister's administration is adhered to. That is one of the approval. In one sense it is a solution, but it is main reasons the Bill is before the Parliament. not a total solution. It is a solution to a I have identified that breaches of the Act are paternalistically-minded person who does not occurring and I am attempting to redress that trust local authorities to be their own masters situation. I do not want to take action against and to be accountable to their electorates. It is local authorities for undertaking reasonable contrary to the beliefs I hold as Minister for and worthwhile welfare services. It is a better Local Government to be required to consider solution to bring legislation before the Parlia- individual requests for approval from councils ment with regard to these activities and the to formalise their decisions. I would far rather Government wants to remove any doubt as to have a situation in which we establish a head of the possibility of those activities being illegal. If power that enables councils to make their de- this Parliament, through the actions of the cisions free of interference from me. Legislative Council, overturns that legislation, we shall have brought to the attention of the In reply to the member for Karrinyup, I Parliament and the public that local authorities stress that we are not talking about general arc undertaking community welfare services competence of all matters. it/ira tires the Act, but that we shall not do Mr Clarko: Why not? You say that you trust anything about it in this place. It will put the local government and it should follow from responsible Minister and successive Ministers that. into a difficult position with regard to enforc- ing the Act. I do not wish to be a Minister who Mr CARR: General competence is a desir- is heavy-handed with the local authorities; it is able or at least a possible eventuality with merit contrary to my whole approach to local govern- and I would like to explore at greater length ment. However, I have sworn an oath that I and over a period of time the move towards will uphold the legislation and I shall be in a general competence power. I would not rule out situation of not wanting to pretend that what is the possibility that in 10 years' time we shall happening is beyond legal doubt when clearly give local government a far wider and more there is some reasonable doubt. comprehensive general competence power. Mr Cash interj I would not want to rush into that, because it .ected. is a very complicated issue. At the moment we Mr CARR: That is very considerably are dealing with just one section of activity and overstated. The point is that at present legal that relates only to community welfare matters. doubt exists although no-one is stopping the Finally, I respond now to comments made by local authorities from doing what they are the member for Karrinyup about the course doing. I am raising the matter in this Chamber likely to be followed during the negotiations in and bringing it to public attention in an at- which we are involved at present. We have a tempt to correct that legal doubt. disagreement between the Legislative Council Having raised that matter and drawn that and the Government as to the content of the doubt to the Parliament's attention, the Parlia- legislation and we are now attempting to nego- ment notwithstanding has said that it will not tiate out of this conflict. When anyone intelli- agree to these amendments. It will be much gent is engaged in an exercise of negotiation he harder to turn a blind eye to these activities wants to look for the best possible result and than it was previously, whether that involves does not want to predetermine the result of me or some other Minister. It will be a difficult those negotiations. I am looking 10 a successful situation for a Minister to address further conclusion of these negotiations in the sense 3952 3952[ASSEMBLY]

that I would like to see the Opposition recog- provision, and show that some welfare services nise that there is more merit to this proposal need to be provided and that they should be in than the Opposition saw when it originally the hands of local authorities. He needs to came before the Parliament. I will not make answer this question: If we have two local any threat to the member for Karrinyup, such authorities side by side, one with a generous as that if the Opposition does not agree to this welfare programme and the other with an in- we will take home the whole Bill. ferior programme or none, what would that do By the same token, I regard this amendment to government in Western Australia? Does he as very serious, and if it is to be persisted with think this is a good example of providing good by the Legislative Council I would consider government in this State? If this amendment that a matter of great seriousness and I would were to be rejected, as the Minister seeks to then have to consider all the options available have done, we could have one local authority to me and the Government. I would probably providing gold taps and the other providing want to discuss it with other members of Cabi- water from wells. net, because I would regard that situation very In addition, we could have a mad rush to seriously. I will not rule out the possibility of provide welfare services, and this could have a saying that if the Opposition is to tear out this significant effect not only on local government much of the Bill, we will withdraw it and come but also on the Federal and State Govern- back in the autumn session with another Bill ments. We could find local authorities strug- containing this provision. By the same token, gling to provide an ever-increasing burden of while we are in the middle of the process of welfare programmes, some or which were not negotiation I am not going to issue threats or necessary or deserved and just adding to the declare what my position will be. I hope that is dominance of big government over ordinary, understood. weak citizens. Mr CLARKO: I believe the Minister should The Minister should know better than most enumerate the specific welfare powers that are that a particular council can be wealthy for a currently sought by local authorities in this variety of reasons, some of them quite fortu- State. He should name the councils and the itous. An example would be Boddington, where welfare services they seek to provide. He owes the local authority suddenly found that a it to us to say that there is a need for welfare goldmine, the second most productive in services in this State which specific councils Australia, was located within its boundaries. now seek to provide, and he should indicate The welfare services the Boddington Shire why he believes these particular welfare ser- might possibly provide, because of that fortu- vices should be handled by local authorities. itous find, could produce in WA some gross lHe should come out and say what he thinks inequities. It could lead to Governments sud- about duplicated welfare services. denly wanting to put their fingers into that pie I went through a long list of welfare services and Stripping a bit more money from the provided in Australia by the Federal and State Boddington project to make that local auth- Governments. I talked about how a local authority equal by taking away from it and ority might take an existing service and in- down-levelling it to the level of other local crease it, something which very possibly could authorities. be quite unjust and unfair to its ratepayers and Greater rating potential is one of the factors Australians as a whole. The wealthiest form of that make some local authorities greater than government-the Federal Govern men t-migh t others. If a local authority happens to be delete a certain welfare programme and a local located at the mouth of a river or on some very authority might say that it would fill the gap, important nodal position around which indus- take up that programme and provide the same try and commerce congregates, that would or increased services in its region. The welfare make that local authority much wealthier per- programmes of Australia could end up in the haps than its neighbour. hands of the smallest local authority in the in this State we have local authorities nation; a handful of people, in effect, could ranging in size from the smallest which covers provide a welfare programme that might be 130 people to the largest wh ich co ve rs 17 0 000 described as "gold taps and Rolls Royce people. How do we get any sont of equality in transport". community welfare programmes when we have It is essential that the Minister, in order to this sort of disparity? For instance, the City of defend his position on this clause, show that Perth has a rating income of some $40 million;, there is a demonstrated need in WA for this certainly, its overall take approaches $50 [Thursday, 7 November 19851 395395 million. At the same time, the smallest local 170 000. The Kent Greater Council controls all authority handles about $300 000. In those cir- sorts of matters including schools, water, cumstances we would get no justice with the power, and so on. sonts of welfare programmes that might be Mr Bertram: Do you believe the same in re- provided. Already complaints are being made spect of the company law? by people in the Fremantle area that people from other local authorities go to Fremantle Mr CLARKO: The member for Balcatta is and take advantage of its welfare services. I do more qualified to speak on company law, being not think this is a good system. With the huge a legal man. I will listen with interest when he disparity among our 139 local authorities, with speaks on it later in the debate. some wealthy and others not and with some In my opinion this Government is capable of providing gold-plated welfare pro- dishonestly suggesting that local government grammes and others not, people will be authorities are after the welfare services. I put disadvantaged. it to the Government that it is in its platform that local authorities have welfare, and that is Let us consider age pensions, a benefit in what it is going about doing. The Government which Australia led the world. It is much more has not provided a list of local authorities logical and much fairer if the State has the right which states, "We want to carry out these wel- to decide whether we provide age pensions in fare programmes." The Government has not WA rather than leaving it up to individual local done that and it is incumbent on it to do so. I authorities, where some might be able to pro- believe the proposed system will cause dupli- vide it and others obviously would not be able cation or triplication, and the unevenness to do so. We could have a ridiculous situation demonstrated by my example of age pensions. in WA where one authority, Sandstone, If the Government brought in legislation which provided no age pensions but a local authority led to that unevenness throughout the State, I such as the Melville local authority did. believe the legislation would ultimately have to be changed. It is far better to have, say, an age pensions scheme for all people in Western Australia, Mr BRADSHAW: I still do not go along with with all people treated fairly. They should all the Minister's view that this amendment get a pension regardless of the Financial should be changed. I would like the Minister to position of the local authority. The other find out which shires have asked for a change system is a very bad second-it would be one in the Local Government Act to give them where some people in Western Australia had these roles to play. I am sure no council has age pensions, some did not, and others were in come to the Minister and said it is in a situ- between. In any field of welfare, not just age ation to provide more welfare to its ratepayers. pensions, some local authorities would be in a If councils are given an opportunity to ex- position to provide a gold-plated arrangement tend their roles, they will certainly. take it up, and others would not provide anything. with the direct result of increasing rates to the ratepayer. As the member for Karrinyup Yet the Minister tries to argue that this is a pointed out, there would be a variation in the good system. it is a rotten, stinking, smelly facilities and amenities provided. system and a government which advocates that Mr Tonkin: That is an argument against local system cannot logically say. "That is what we want for Western Australia." If someone lived government. Doesn't it happen in other areas? on the goldfields and received an age pension Mr BRADSHAW: It does to some extent, but but because of ill-health had to move to the that situation will be exacerbated. coast and went to Mandurah, that town might Another very important thing is that the not have an age pension scheme. That is absol- Minister keeps talking about the autonomy of ute stupidity. It is far better for the State of local government- Western Australia to control that welfare pro- Several members interjected. gramme and issue pensions on a completely equitable basis. Mr BRADSHAW: The Government is doing something about it, all right. What is it doing? Western Australia's population is a mere It is jumping on the City of Stirling-it won't drop in the ocean. A few years ago in England I let that council run itself. The Government went to the Kent Greater Council, which has (Tied to force the council to rezone an area for a 4.5 million people in that local government Chinese restaurant; and now we have a situ- authority. The biggest in Western Australia has ation where the council has allowed the 3954 3954[ASSEMBLY]

Spindrifter to go ahead, and what does the A newspaper published last week contained Government do? It says the City of Stirling is an article suggesting that a radio personality, not allowed to do it. Then the Government Mr Bob Maumill, had offered to fight the comes here with its Big Brother attitude- Leader of the Opposition. Taken on its face Several members interjected. value this offer, if it indeed occurred, may well constitute an offence under the Parliamentary Mr BRADSHAW: -its socialistic attitude, Privileges Act. I note that in this case neither and now tries to put into the Local Govern- the Leader of the Opposition nor any other ment Act provisions allowing it to get into the member has chosen to take the matter any welfare agencies. further. This, as is always the case, is a matter Leave granted to continue speech at a later for members themselves to contemplate and make their own decision upon. stage of the sitting. In a more serious incident I have sighted Progress letters written on behalf of Mr M. R. H. Progress reported and leave given to sit Holmes a Court which appear to threaten the again, on motion by Mr Carr (Minister for Lo- Premier that certain action will be taken cal Government). against him should he repeal, even in answering questions in this House, statements made jQuestions taken.] outside the House. The writer of these letters is Sitting suspended from 6.00 to 7.15 p.mit. possibly completely unaware of the seriousness of implying a threat toward a member of Par- liament concerning his actions as a member in the House. I would like to think that this is the PARLIAMENTARY PRIVILEGE case. However, as we are all aware, ignorance is not regarded as an excuse for breaking any law. Breaches: Statement by Speaker I take this opportunity to refresh the THE SPEAKER (Mr Harman): It has come awareness of all concerned as to the fact of to my notice that there could be people in our parliamentary privilege. I do so with no desire community who are possibly unaware of the to create the impression that Parliament is a nature of parliamentary privilege. perfect or sacrosanct institution whose mem- Before I make reference to two particular in- bers can do no wrong. Indeed, parliamen- cidents which have been brought to my notice tarians have a duty to respect the rights of all in recent days. I remind the House that this Western Australians, irrespective of their status Parliament as long ago as I1891 passed legis- or position. However, parliamentary privilege lation which, to a large degree, specifically has been fought for and hard-gained over enumerated the privileges claimed by the Par- many, many years. It exists to protect the liament for its proper operation. interests of all Western Australians. Aspects of The Parliamentary Privileges Act it are expressed in our Parliamentary Privileges I 89 has Act and certain pants of our Criminal Code. been held to define the privileges, immunities and powers of both Houses but, at the same I publicly urge any who would contemplate time, implies a claim for the privileges of the making rash statements impinging upon parlia- Commons House of Parliament in Britain. Sec- mentary privilege to think very carefully before tion 8 of the Parliamentary Privileges Act em- they do so. powers each to punish in a summary manner in the case where certain offences are committed. Among these-and members will find the LOCAL GOVERNMENT AMENDMENT references on pages 168 and 169 of their vol- BILL (No. 2) ume of Acts and Other Infbrmiation Relating to Parliament-are "The sending to a member Councils Amendments any threatening letter on account of his behav- Amendments made by the Council further iour in Parliament." and "The sending a chal- considered from an earlier stage of the sitting. lenge to fight a member." In? Committee It has been brought to my attention that in recent days there may well have been incidents The Chairman of Committees (Mr Barnett) which could be regarded by the House as in- in the Chain; Mr Carr (Minister for Local fringements of each of these principles. Government) in charge of the Bill. [Thursday, 7 November 19851 395595

Progress was reported after the Minister for Mr BRADSHAW: If some people are given Local Government had moved thai amend- powers they will definitely use them in due ments Nos. I and 2 made by the Council be not course. agreed to. Mr Read: Are you saying we should reduce Mr BRADSHAW: The main thing I can say the powers of this Parliament too? about this part of the Bill is that it will certainly taxation at a lime when the Mr BRADSHAW: I agree. Our policy is lead to increased small government. I certainly disagree with the community is screaming out for lower taxes and rates. It is certainly a sad state of affairs idea that we should increase welfare in the way when more and more Bills are introduced we are currently doing. which have the effect of increasing taxation in Mr Read: Who would you give power to? the community. Some people might call them Mr BRADSHAW: Over the last 50 years we shire rates, but it is still a form of taxation, and have become more socialistic and, in some this is something that is crippling Australia at cases, rightly so; but in other cases these present. It adds to the burden already borne by measures have only added to the burden of the the taxpayers. taxes we are paying. This part of the Bill cer- Mr Hodge: Do you think welfare measures tainly in the long term, and perhaps even in the will become compulsory under this Bill? short term, will increase the burden of the tax- Mr BRADSHAW: I am not saying they will payers of Western Australia. become compulsory. A fellow will think he is I certainly oppose the motion moved by the doing the right thing by saying this is good for Minister for Local Government. the community. In his wisdom or in his own right he feels it is the right thing for the com- Mr SPRIGGS: I enter this debate only be- munity, but a lot of councillors do these things cause of some of the remarks of the Minister in in good faith without realising they will add to response to the member for Karrinyup. Of the burden of taxation. course he said that at the present time local government was doing things it was not al- Mr Hodge: He cannot do it on his own. He lowed to do under the Act. I reel that if the will have to convince his fellow councillors. Minister is to make that statement, at least it is Mr BRADSHAW: Agreed. The end result is reasonable for him to tell us what local govern- that it is an addition to the already heavy bur- ment is doing which is not provided under the den of taxation. When they sit around and dis- Act. cuss the matter it might sound like a great idea; Mr Carr: George, we made up a list here this perhaps it will help the elderly or some afternoon. were you asleep again? disadvantaged persons in the community. However, it is just another debt and over the Mr SPRIGGS: I probably was not listening years the burden will become greater. because it was not very interesting. Let me assure the Chamber that I am not convinced that We have reached the stage now where the the Minister can tell me of anything that local taxation burden in Australia is quite horrific. government today is doing in the welfare area The people scream out for lower taxes, yet we which is in conflict with the Act. The Act quite continue to introduce Bills which effectively clearly states that if local government wants to increase the taxation burden. This is a little like do something for welfare it may need to get the tax summit. The Prime Minister should be permission from the Minister to do certain blamed because the people of Australia got the things. I have been involved in local govern- impression that by having a tax summit we ment for some time and I can assure members would have reduced taxes, but in no way was that local government has done a tremendous that the Prime Minister's intention. Rather, the amount for welfare and I certainly hope it will taxation summit was designed to decide continue to do so. If the Minister can tell me whether the money would be taken out of the where the present Act stipulates that something right pocket, the left pocket, out of the guy next that local government is currently doing is un- door's pocket, or even out of all pockets. lawful, and it is so prevented from doing it, I Mr Read: Do you think local government will be amazed. does not have the ability to foresee dangers in Mr Carr: The things that are unlawful are not relation to this clause? in the Act. That is why they are unlawful, for Mr Carr: He says he does not trust these goodness sake. I went through it twice this elected councillors to make decisions. afternoon. 3956 3956[ASSEMBLY]

Mr SPRIGGS: I doubt whether there are Mr SPRIGGS: I do not mind if the Minister very many facets of welfare that they are not does not tell me. I listened to what he said this handling at present. Some councils are hand- afternoon and [ did not hear one fact relating to ling most welfare areas. the Act's being broken. I oppose this clause; I Mr Read: What does the Act entitle you to believe it is unnecessary. This clause will not do? do anything to change the Act in its present form; it will give the impression to the public at Mr SPRIGGS: The Act entitles them to do large and to one or two councillors that they almost anything. can safely do things they could not do before. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Can I just point Mr CLARKO: It is essential that the Com- out two things, please? Firstly, Hansard cannot mittee appreciate that the fundamental ques- pick up a thing when we can only see the back tion before us is whether every local authority of the member's head and, secondly, after two in Western Australia should be given the power minutes I am now finding it very difficult to to enter into each and every type of community establish how the member is relating his welfare service that exists anywhere in the remarks to the matter before the Chair which is world, now or in the future. This particular that the Council's amendments be disagreed to. provision will create a situation where there are Mr SPRIGGiS: If I am not relating my no limits to the welfare programmes that can remarks to the matter before the Chair, I would be set up. like to know what would be related to it. Mr Tonkin: We believe in autonomy for lo- The CHAIRMAN: It is not for me to tell the cal government. member that. Mr CLARKO: The Minister does flot believe Mr SPRIGGS: The Minister has made quite in it at all. He has made an unequivocal clear statements which in my book are not fac- statement. Is he prepared to support an amend- tual. I am quite sure that nobody is against ment to the Local Government Act which will local government doing certain things. But allow individual local authorities to choose who votes in their elections? That is the ques- what has been expressed by the Opposition, and I would have hoped had been expressed by tion:, I challenge the Minister to answer it if he some members on the other side of the House is game. if they had some interest in local government, Mr Tonkin: That is taking autonomy away is that it is a continuing concern, not of local from the citizens of the State. government but of the citizens of Australia, Mr CLARKO: Rubbish! The Minister has that there should not be a duplication or a failed to answer the question. He has proved to triplication of services provided by Federal and be absolutely insincere because he has foisted State Governments and local government. If on the people of Western Australia the peculiar the Minister brought forward a provision in situation where councillor3 in local government this legislation which clearly passed responsi- who pay no rates can set the level of rates. bility onto local government or permitted local government to take Over certain Mr P. J. Smith: Everybody pays rates. responsibilities of the State or Federal Govern- Mr CLARKO: They do not. That is non- ments, there would be some sense in it. sense! My adult daughter lives at my house and What he is doing is widening the Field for the does not pay rates. Mr P. 1. Smith: You do not take any board? councillor who has only one thing on his plate. I am not knocking councillors who join coun- M rCLAR KO: NotI do not. cils because they have a welfare objective in Mr P. J. Smith: Then she is sponging. view. Some join because they do not like the potholes in the road. In this Bill the Minister is Mr CLARKO: That is an insult. The member attempting to provide open slather for the may well have an adult living in his house one duplication and triplication of services far be- day and not take a payment off that person. It yond a level that is desirable. is quite improper to say my daughter is sponging off me. He has no right to say it. It is a rude I ask the Minister to explain exactly which thing to say, and he should apologise. If one has councils have broken the Act and have brought an adult son or daughter living at home, one about the need to legalise their actions. does not require him or her to pay their way Mr Carr You will have to read Hansard. I fully. If the member for Bunbury does that he is went through it twice this afternoon and I am a Shylock. H~e has again been proven, like his not going to go through it a third time now. leader, to go to water. lHe made a statement [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 353957 and I disproved it, and the member tried to poses committee, and I believe that experience insult my daughter by way of response. Having would be much better than whatever local given him an example, I find he chose to insult government responsibility the member for her. That is disgraceful and I think it is im- Mitchell has had. proper. There are people who do not pay rates. There are many people who pay rent, but as even the member knows rents are geared so The situation at present is that quite a num- that people do not pay their full economi c ber of things are done which can be described share of the cost of running a house. They do as welfare services. Section 446 of the Local not pay their full share of the rate commitment Government Act was established so that as we on the house. moved through time, varying elements of programmes for the community, whether one The Minister apparently sees no problem in called them welfare services or anything else, the fact that this proposal could mean that 139 have been progressively added to the list. This different schemes could be operating in a single Bill does that in one or two places, so we are welfare sector in this State. Apparently that not opposed ot the provision of all welfare ser- does not worry him. A welfare recipient in the vices by local authorities. We believe welfare local authority which had a scheme which services should principally be carried out by provided a low level of remuneration would the State or Federal Governments. That is the feel badly done by if he became aware that the only way to get a fair system. Different local adjacent local authority had a much better authorities have different capacities to support scheme. welfare services. It would be quite unreason- If there is a demonstrated need for a single able if two authorities side by side provided a welfare service throughout Western Australia, different level of services. If people want a would it not be better and fairer for it to be first-class welfare system it must be provided operated by the Department for Community by the State or Federal Government. Services? In that way one would get a uniform scheme for every Western Australian. I referred earlier to the age pension; would it not be bet- We are not saying that there is not a need for ter if there was one age pension and that the some form of welfare. We support minimal State provided it so that everybody was eligible welfare services. For instance, the City of for the same amount under the same con- Stirling employs a nurse and a welfare officer ditions? For different local authorities to have who are able to deal with emergencies and different levels of welfare services, or for one Special cases. Obviously a smaller local auth- authority to have a service which another authority could provide such services but there ority did not would create gross inequities in would be a greater financial burden on those the standard of living in Western Australia. authorities. The Liberal Party believes community welfare services are basically the responsibility of We challenge the Minister-I have done this the State and/or the Federal Government. That repeatedly throughout this debate-to tell us gives uniformity of services throughout the which welfare services councils want and which State. It also means the services are funded they are prevented from carrying out. We have more fairly because under this ridiculous situ- asked him to name councils which have ation people who pay no rates or a proportion requested welfare services but which they have of the rates compared with others are allowed not been able to establish because of the Act. to sit at the council table and vote on what level We reject the suggestion that there should be of rates people will be paying. There will be an -general competence" for welfare. I think it is unevenness because ratepayers will be paying unbalanced for the Government to say that for an expansion of welfare services and rate- there should be general competence in welfare payers will pay a different amount depending and not general competence in voting systems on the local authority area. Welfare should or rating systems. The Government is not principally be the province of the State and doing one thing or the other. It is saying that Federal Governments. It is the only way to what it is imposing suits it because it is social- achieve uniformity. I do not know whether the istic and it would like to see an expanded wel- member for Mitchell has been in local govern- fare. It is saying that it suits it to give general ment, but I have been in a local government competence on welfare. The Minister did not authority which had 170000 people. I was the use that term in debate; it has been used by chairman of the staff, finance, and general pur- others. 3958 3958[ASSEMBLY]

We oppose the proposition to provide an un- Mr Evans: The percentage of revenue raised restricted system of community welfare ser- by local government is not very much now- vices. It would be unfair, discriminatory, and less than 30 per cent. unnecessary because there are other ways of Mr BRADSHAW: That does not matter. If providing the necessary welfare services. their powers are expanded they will have to Mr BRADSHAW: I was asked earlier have more money. whether I have faith in local government. I cer- I believe we should return to the old days tainly do. when social welfare was provided by one's im- Mr Troy: So long as it does not have any mediate family, church, service club, and other power. agencies. Mr BRADSHAW: That is a complete load of Mr Bridge: The difficulty with local govern- rubbish. Shire councils were set up as roads ment is that their horizons have broadened boards which Government members may or over the years. When I entered local govern- may not know. ment it concentrated on roadworks. Now it has to deal with all sorts of issues including social Mr Troy: And that is where you would like welfare issues. them to slay. Mr BRADSHAW: Because it has been given Mr BRADSHAW: The member is quite that power. If it is to be given that power then right, and I will tell him why: Since councils' we should cut out some of the State Govern- duties have been expanded, people have had ment's powers to prevent duplication. Many of imposed on them higher rates and taxes to pay the services being performed by Staie Govern- for these expanded duties when all Australians ments are being duplicated by local govern- are screaming for lower taxes and smaller ment. The thing about Governments providing Government. The Government is tryi.ng to im- these services is that people do not ask how pose its socialistic and communistic ideas. much money they cost. I can remember at the Mr Carr: How do you reduce taxes if you are last mayoral election in Bunbury people saying screaming for handouts? that they could not vote for Jeff Prosser because they could not afford what he wanted for Mr BRADSHAW: We do not want handouts. Bunbury. He had promised all sorts of things to It is time we began reducing some of the ser- become mayor of Bunbury. It did not work vices and got back to the system where people because the people of Bunbury felt they could do not depend on government to provide ser- not afford it. vices. This Government wants to hold their hands in its socialistic way. Mr Carr: So the people were the final judge. They imposed accountability on the council. I certainly have confidence in the shire councils that I know about. They operate within the Mr BRADSHAW: That is so, in those days. guidelines set down for them, as do the State However, once promises have been fulfilled it and Federal Governments. However, State and is very hard to take them back. Federal Governments can alter their roles by I oppose the motion to not agree to the enacting legislation. Council's amendment because it would lead to Mr Carr: Do you support the extension of a rise in the cost of taxes and charges on the local government powers? people of this State. Mr BRADSHAW: I do not support the ex- Mr RUSHTON: It is the Government's in- tension of local government powers. The Min- tention by this legislation to destroy local ister should tell me of one person he knows government, not to advance it. The first thing it who does not feel he is paying too many taxes should ask itself is: What do the ratepayers and charges. All this legislation will mean will want? It is all right for the Minister for Water be an increase in rates and (axes in Western Resources to laugh and joke. When he asked Australia. the people what they wanted he took no notice of them. I believe that shire councils' powers are wide The Leader of the House tries to ride over enough at present. This legislation will not give people, and that is what he is doing now. He them more autonomy. does what he wants to do, not what the people Mr Clarko: It will be a burden. want. The so-called autonomy for local govern- Mr BRADSHAW: Yes, it will be a burden on men t- the ratepayers. Mr Tonkin: You do not believe in it. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 395995

M r RUSHTON: I certainly do. Question put and a division taken with the following result- Mr Tonkin: You did not do a thing for it Ayes 24 when you were the Minister. Mr Bateman Mr Hughes Mr Bertram Mr ,Jamieson Mr RUSHTON: I happened to create the Mr Bridge Mr Maclver Mrs Buchanan Mr Parker liaison committee which worked with local Mr Brian Burke Mr Read government in order that it could get the auton- Mr Terry Burke Mr D. L. Smith omy that it asked for. Mr Burkett Mr P.i. Smith Mr Carr Mr Taylor Mr Davies Mr Tonkin Mr Tonkin: That is not what local govern- Mr Evans Mr Troy ment says about you. Mrs Henderson Mrs Watkins Mr Hodge Mr Gordon Hill Mr RUSH-TON: The Leader of the House is (fl//er) Noes 14 not speaking the truth. Mr Bradshaw Mr Rushton Mr Clarko Mr Spriggs One thing about which local government is Mr Court Mr Thompson aware is the cost of running it. The ratepayers Mr Grayden Mr Trethowan Mr MacKinnon Mr Tubby are aware of this also. We should be mindful of Mr Mensaros Mr Wat the cost of State Government and the Federal Mr Old Mr Williams members of Parliament should be aware of the (fe/k') Pairs cost of the Federal Government. Without Ayes Noes recognising the cost of running the different Mr Bryce Mr Hassell levels of government, we will not be in a Mr Pearce Mr Coyne Mr Grill Mr Lauranice position to reduce the cost of running local Mrs Beggs Mr McNee government if we duplicate the services. Mr Toni Jones Mr Blaikie Mr Wilson Dr Dadour The object of this Government is to Question thus passed; the Council's amend- regionalise local government. It wants to build local government up to the stage where it will ments not agreed to. take over the State Government's responsibilities. Report, etc. Resolution reported and the report adopted. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I will advise the member for Dale what I have advised a couple A committee consisting of Mr Troy, Mr of members. This is not a second reading de- Clarko, and Mr Carr (Minister for Local bate and the question before the Chair is that Government) drew up reasons for not agreeing we disagree with the amendments moved by to amendments Nos. I and 2 made by the the Legislative Council. The member f .or Dale Council. must relate his remarks to that. Reasons adopted and a message accordingly returned to the Council. Mr RUSHTON: The Opposition is seeking to be consistent with the views expressed by the Legislative Council in this regard, and that is the reason I am emphasising that this Govern- APPROPRIATION (GENERAL LOAN ment is endeavouring to change its mind and to FUND) BILL lead us away from the views expressed by the In Copittilee Legislative Council. Resumed from 6 November. The Chairman As far as I am concerned it is evident that of Committees (Mr Barnett) in the Chair; Mr this Government wants to take a certain direc- Brian Burke (Treasurer) in charge of the Bill. tion relating to local government and it will not Division-Public Works-Buildings and be to the benefit of local government in the Associated Works Including Furniture and long term. The Government is seeking to Equipment, $8 828 000- regionalise and centralise all levels of government. with control being based in Canberra. Progress was reported after the Division had Until the Government has a different philos- been partly considered. ophy it is obvious that this is its objective. It is Mr CLARKO: I make some comments re- something which must be stopped. garding the allocation for prisons. 3960 3960[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Tonkin: Are you in favour of them. Frenmantle Prison is a remarkable building Mr CLARKO: I remember a fellow once say- from the outside, but I understand that it is not ing to me that our policy should be, "Don't get all that marvellous inside. caught", but some would say that once This evening I asked the Treasurer a ques- offenders are caught and incarcerated they tion with regard to the site of the replacement should be kept in reasonable comfort without prison. I asked- being allowed to wander away or in any way be If he will not specify the site now, when able to tyrannise the ordinary citizen. will he do so? This Budget provides for a replacement for Fremantle Prison. That is a major step forward I also asked the Treasurer why the Government and the Government should be complimented proposes to spend $700 000 in this Budget for a on the decision to provide initial funds for an new prison site when suitable land has been set alternative prison to Fremantle. The total cost asi de adjacent to the existing Canning Vale of this new prison is estimated by the Govern- Prison, for a prison of this nature. The ment to be $56.4 million. It is proposed that Treasurer asked me to put the question on the the building be completed by 1990, some five Notice Paper. years away. I may be wrong, but if my memory The people of Western Australia need to serves me correctly, the Fremantle Prison was know now where the prison will be located. It built in the 1850s. has been put to me that the Government is weak with regard to indicating where it pro- Mr Parker: Yes. poses to site the prison. It is afraid that the Mr CLARKO: One of the first things that electorate in which it is proposed to site the true British colonialists did was build prisons prison might become shaky at election time. and hospitals for the insane. The Government may feel it is entitled to conceal its plans for electoral purposes, but I re- Mr Jamieson: Before the turn of the century, gard it as a weak and insipid Government if it a Royal Commission said that it was not fit for does so. human habitation. Someone has suggested that the prison will be sited south of Perth in the electorate of Mr CLARKO: Yes, so it has taken us a long Cockburn. I have also recently heard that it will time, about 80 or 90 years, as indicated by the be located in an area at or near Gnangara, member for Welshpool, to bite the bullet. which is fairly close to the seat ofiJoondalup. If there is a possibility that it will be sited in that Successive Governments since the end of last area, I can understand why the Government is century felt that there were matters they had to coy about announcing the fact. give priority to in preference to outlaying a huge sum of money on a new prison to replace Mrs Watkins: What about siting it in that at Fremantle. There are very few buildings Karrinyup. that would stand for a period of 130 years. Mr CLARKO: There is not sufficient vacant Fremantle Prison, by various means, has land in Karrinyup. managed to achieve that. Clearly; what was Mr Parker: It could be put in Star Swamp. suitable as a place of incarceration all those years ago is not an appropriate place today for Mr Burkett: Over my dead body. the people who are unfortunate enough to be Mr CLARKO: If the Government did that, it confined in the prison. would need to hold a by-election in Scarborough. It would not help the member for Mr Davies: Have you had a look over it? Joondalup if a prison were to be sited in or near her electorate. Mr CLARKO: I have not been through the Fremantle Prison, but as a very keen follower Mr Parker: Every site has some problems of football, I have walked past its entrance and associated with it, whether they be health, con- side walls on many occasions. I have always servation strategies, or a whole range of other stepped past that prison gate at about 2 o'clock things. It is a complex procedure. with a feeling of elation. If Claremont happens Mr CLARKO: It is complex in one sense but subsequently to lose, I have later walked past only as are the problems associated with any hanging my head, but I have never had the significant building, and this is a special type of feeling that I would like to go inside. building. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 396136

Mr Parker: There are a number of good for specified reasons. It has not done so and I reasons and, to take one example, a site which believe the people of Western Australia are was thought to be a good site was Finally entitled to be informed about this matter. rejected because it was recognised that it could My colleague, Hon P. G. Pendal, asked a not be evacuated quickly, and evacuation series of questions on this matter in another might be needed in the area for vari.ous place. He asked the Minister for Prisons the reasons. People would be in the area for 24 following question- hours a day, and as this will be a maximum security prison, evacuation could present prob- Why is the Government proposing that lems. the maximum security prison be constructed at a place other than Canning Mr CLARKO: I would not have thought that Vale where adequate land is available and the rate of evacuation would have made any central services have been provided at con- difference to the site chosen. siderable cost? Mr Parker: You cannot evacuate a maximum Hon J. M. Berinson replied- security prison quickly. There is a whole range of factors which go to the selection of an appropriate site Mr CLARKO: That will be the same for this prison, and they are not all necess- wherever it is located. arily met by the availability of space at Mr Parker: The need for evacuation will de- Canning Vale. pend on the location of the prison. That answer is pathetic in the extreme. It avoids the question and does not say, for Mr CLARKO: I think that is far too vague. If example, that the Government has found the the Government wants to make that point, for land at Canning Vale is too small, that the example, it could say that it cannot build the terrain is unsuitable, or give some other reason. prison on uneven ground because that would It ignores the advantages of locating the vari- result in multi-level buildings which could fa- ous elements of the prison service in one place. cilitate escapes, therefore, the Government I do not know whether the Government feels it needs flat land on which to build the prison. I will be electorally damaged by expanding the could accept such an argument and understand prison complex at Canning Vale. the reason for it. However, I think the real reason for the Government's secrecy in this Mr MacKinnon: It is in my electorate. matter is that it does not have the gumption to Mr CLARKO: I thought it might be in the say where it will be sited bccause it is afraid of electorate of Canning. The member for Can- the electoral repercussions. ning would not be too worried about that because he will not be throwing his hat into the If by some miracle the Labor Party Wins the ring at election lime. election next February or March, I think the Government will find it easy to say where the Hon P. G. Pendal asked the Minister for prison will be located because the election will Prisons a further question in two parts- be behind it. I will bet a lottery ticket on that. (I) Is it correct that the Government contemplated the construction of the new A Government member: Will you bet a lot- maximum security prison on land at a tery t icket on who wins the next election? place named Leda, a new residential Mr CLARKO: I am not allowed to bet on subdivision near Kwinana? elections and therefore I am handicapped in (2) Is it further correct that Leda was that sense. ruled out as a place for the new maximum security prison because of ad- I put it to the Chamber that the Government vice from the Health Department of should come clean and say where the pri son the likely effect of industrial airborne will be located. The reasons it is not doing so pollution on prison officers are not those given by the Minister. and pris- The expen- oners? diture of $700 000 is a waste of money. There is land at Canning Vale on which to build the Hon. Joe Berinson relied in a way which belies replacement prison for Fremantle, and in my his normal loquacious style, and said- view it is incumbent on the Government if, for (1) and (2) 1 have previously indicated to some reason or another it believes that is not the House that a number of sites have an appropriate site, to quickly announce that been and remain under consideration, the prison will not be located at Canning Vale and that pending a final decision on 3962 3962[ASSEMBLY]

the site of this prison I would not be I remarked Zhat that was a tremendously fast proposing to enter into discussions time. One of them interjected that it was not as which would encourage speculation. fast as it could be. I asked, "What is the fastest way?" The reply was, 'You back a motor car to The third question asked by lHon. Phil Pendal the outside wall, take a piece of rope, tie it to was- the trailer hitch, and toss it over the wall and Is the Minister satisfied that the problem you can pull a person aver in a couple of sec- of security recently reported at Canning onds." Vale Prison when prisoners were found Mr MacKinnon: There are towers out there after hours in workshop areas with dupli- which are not manned. cate keys has been resolved? Mr CLARKO: The towers are not manned. H-on. Joe Berinson's reply was the single word They were built as pant of the architectural plan. They were manned initially. This helps us not at all where a Minister of This is a farcical situation. I said, "Because the Crown avoids what are quite reasonable you have tested it out yourselves, do you make questions. a periodic tour of the area immediately outside the prison walls in order to prevent this Hon. Phillip Pendal asked whether the Min- happening?" The prison officer said, "No, we ister was satisfied that the security was in order do not." and there was no imminent likelihood of escape, to which Hon. Joe Berinson said- I was in a questioning mood, so I asked, "Why do you not do something to make sure The first Minister for Prisons to guaran- the prison is completely escape-proof?" I said, lee thai there will not be an escape or an "I am not advocating this, but you could put a attempted escape from any prison will be low electrical charge through the wail or adjac- heading towards the end of his career. ent to it. It would stun a person attempting to There is no possibility of providing the escape." I was not suggesting harming a person, sort of implied guarantee for which the but temporarily stunning him so that he could honourable member is asking. I can say I be apprehended. am satisfied that the security at Canning Vale is at a very high level and that it is It was put to me that that was not very hu- appropriate for the class of prisoners in mane. I suggested many people with arthritis that institution. continually give themselves electrical charges to overcome their bodily aches and pains. I I do not agree with H-on. Joe Berinson on that said, "What is another answer? Could we dig a matter. I went to that prison one day at the big moat." invitation of Mr Berinson and while there we discussed how Secure Canning Vale prison was. Mr Tonkin: We could put piranhas in it. It was at a time when the Government had Mr CLARKO: I suggested putting a crocodile already announced it was removing armed in there. I would not mind if the teeth had been guards. That followed an incident where an es- extracted from the crocodile, because I thought caping prisoner was killed by a rifle shot which that would have a considerable effect. unfortunately entered his head. The Govern- ment announced it would place cowling on the Then I received a most remarkable comment walls of this prison which raised the height of from one of the most senior prison officers. He the wall. I see the cost was $36 000. said, "You do not understand, it is quite wrong psychologically to establish in the minds of I asked representatives of the prison officers prisoners that their prison is escape-proof. That there what was the security rating of this is considered to be psychologically bad." prison, in terms of keeping people inside. One M rTon k in: Very da magi ng. of them mumbled a bit and looked at his su- perior. Finally he said the prison warders Mr CLARKO: It is supposed to be psycho- indulged in a competition to see how quickly logically bad for prisoners to feel they are in a the wall could be scaled. On the basis that they prison from which nobody can escape. This is a had a piece of rope and did not have to con- man of senior rank in the prison service, and he struct it, they timned themselves going over the said it in all seriousness. I have read it since in wall, and from memory it took perhaps a min- opinions from other experts, mainly psychol- ute or so, ogists, who have said something similar. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 396336

I am appalled. It is amazing (hat anybody great expansion of what is happening there. It should come up with that sont of comment- is interesting that no such amount for design is that we should have prisons which should not set down with the amount under the new psychologically make the prisoners feel that prison which will replace the Fremantle Prison. they cannot escape. I think we have decided it will be sited either I wonder what sort of world we are living in? in Joondalup or perhaps-as the member for It seems to me to be an Alice in Wonderland Mundaring has entered the Chamber- kind of world. They call them 'lessens" be- Mandurah would be a good place to put the cause they 'lessen" from time to time. This is prison. for schoolteachers such as the Leader of the Mr Troy: I already have two! House. Mr CLARKO: It will be a big prison which I do not believe we should have prisons will house the worst characters! If we had a which do not provide adequate living accom- continuation of the rating fiasco and a huge modation. I have been through the Canning prison was built in the member's area the Vale prison. Apart from the intrusion of a toilet Government would have to give the wine pedestal in the cell, the rooms are very nice. I growers another $ 10 million. Perhaps the elec- cannot see why the rooms should not be nice tors could be kept in some sort of soporific either. But it is incumbent on the prison service state until the next election! to try to provide an escape-proof prison. Any- body who tries to suggest otherwise does not Mr MacKinnon: I am surprised the Govern- understand what the community seeks. menit does not come clean on this matter because I had no problems with my electors in While it was always difficult to get one of my regard to the prison. I wonder why it will not erudite comments on education in the Press, come clean. since I have had some area of responsibility as shadow Minister for Prisons I have round that Mr Parker: A decision has not been made whenever anyone has hopped out of a prison, about it. the newspapers and radio stations continually Mr CLARKO: I could ask the member for ring me up asking me what I think about these Perth, "Do you have a mirror?" It would be people terrorised by the escapees. That is really advantageous to everybody who was trying to great news. One could remain on the front identify the General Loan Fund estimates of pages all the time as shadow Minister for expenditure if we received an explanation for Prisons if one could persuade a prisoner to get the design fees in relation to the away every day. multifunctional prison at Canning Vale. Mr Tonkin: Leave a few ladders lying I notice also that $750000 is set aside for around. upgrading the Greenough Prison. This question Mr CLARKO: All one needs to do is to find a is very interesting because I think that prison fellow with a hitch and a bit of rope to fling was completed only about a year ago. I remem- over the wall and away they go. ber going through the prison when it was partly completed. It is a pity we do not have I have tried to inject a little humour into my somebody to tell us precisely what that comments because of the lateness of the hour upgrading entails. and the fact that we have been in this place into the early morning for the past couple of days. The other major area of expenditure is the But this is a very serious matter. The people of new work release centre at West Perth on Western Australia, and no doubt everywhere which an amount of $1.65 million will be else in the world, do not want to have prisons spent. This is a very large sum of money. This from which the occupants can move out very year nearly $9 million will be spent on prison easily. buildings and the like. I wonder if anybody will reply to the com- Mr MacKinnon: Is anybody going to respond ments we are going to make on the Loan Bill. If to your questions? not I will ask in a general. open way whether Mr CLARKO: It appears not. Last year the somebody in the Government might be pre- total amount spent on prison buildings was pared to explain why at Canning Vale, under $1.9 million, and I am talking about an amount the heading "Multi-functional prison," there is of $1.7 million being spent on the new work an amount for design fees of $1 585 000. It release centre alone. I do commend the appears that this is pan of continuing work. I Government for this project. It is important presume this large sum of money is pan of a that we provide adequate facilities for people 3964 3964[ASSEMBLY] who are involved in the prison and the incar- members who have taken that action and have ceration process. In this case people will go to suggested that they do not do it again. I have the centre on work release. It is important that now reached the end of my tolerance. I think it we provide adequate facilities for.them. No- is probably the rudest act that anybody could body would suggest, as I have said previously, perform in this place and I take great exception that we are trying to provide accom- to the member for Vasse performing it only a modation of the Parmelia Hilton standard, but moment ago. I expect the member for Vasse, they do need adequate facilities. Here is an when I have finished my remarks, to apologise opportunity for this important aspect of the for his disrespectful action. I hope he will never prison process to be better cared for. That is do it again. important. I do not know whether it is in the Mr Blaikie: I apologise, Mr Chairman. member for Perth's electorate but, if so, I won- The CHAIRMAN: Thank you. The member der whether he hands them how-to-vote cards for Clontarf. or whether the electors are more of the Liberal persuasion. Mr WILLIAMS: It appears that the Swanbourne Hospital laundry is to be closed, Mr Parker: They are probably more Liberal. and that money is to be spent on the essential One of them is a very close friend of the former linen services, to extend the plant, buildings, Premier, as I recall. and machinery to centralise that laundry. I Mr CLARKO: One has to be careful about know and other members know-the shadow this situation because I well remember a man Minister for Health also knows-that the worst who was released from prison on the evening thing that can be done in this situation is to that the Labor Party won the 1971 election. I centralise it. If it was suggested that that service am sure the member for Perth will be able to be transferred perhaps to Mandurah, I could help members with the name of that gentleman understand it, because Mandurah seems to be if they cannot remember. I will not comment copping the lot this financial year. on whether he should or should not have been Mr Read: It has been neglected for years. released. Several members interjected. Mr Terry Burke: He should not have been there. Mr WILLIAMS: I just wonder why everything is going Mandurah's way. There must be Mr CLARKO: There has been a significant some ulterior motive. However, that is the situ- increase in the amount of money that has been ation. I am rather surprised that it has not gone spent on prisons this year; it has gone from that way, but I must say I am concerned that it $1.9 million to nearly $9 million. It is is to be centralised in the present linen service. interesting that when my party was last in The Opposition believes that in the future linen Government it spent approximately $4.8 services to hospitals in particular must be million on prisons during the year 1981-82. provided by private enterprise. I say that with The real task is facing up to the need and every justification. I think it is damning that finding the money to provide extra buildings this year this Government which suggests it is and so on in this area when so many other short of money and cannot find a few thousand areas, people might argue, have greater pri- dollars for SPELD can spend $3.162 million to ority. carry on this socialistic enterprise, particularly Mr WILLIAMS: I rise to take issue on the when this enterprise will cost a great deal More figures for the replacement of the Hospital than it would if it were put out to private Laundry and Linen Service which is estimated enterprise tender. to be $3. 162 million. I say that because today the laundries supply The CHAIRMAN: Order! Would the mem- to hospitals, and there is virtually a monopoly ber for Clontarf resume his seat? I suggest, in this State-only one hospital, Wanneroo while I pause for a moment, that the member Hospital, is supplied by private enterprise- for Vasse resume his seat also. Would the mem- and the average price per kilogram in this State ber for Vasse resume his seat? I want him to is $1.24. If members understand the laundry please resume his seat. In the past few days in set-up they will realise that everything that is this Parliament a number of members have required in a hospital in the way of linen is seen fit to show gross discourtesy and disre- supplied from the Central Linen Service. The spect to this Chair by passing between the only things that are not supplied are nurses' member on his feet and myself. On a number uniforms and mattresses and pillows. The CLS of occasions I have passed messages to those is supplying the service on a re-clean basis of [Thursday, 7 November 1985J)96 3965

$1.24 a kilogram. The same situation applies in Linen Service, so the Government is not get- Victoria, but there the system is based on half ting that tax as it would from a private linen private enterprise and half Government servi ce. enterprise. That system provides exactly the same service for 84c a kilogram. It is reason- It can be seen that the operation of the Cen- able to assume that given the same opportunity tral Linen Service in Western Australia is an in this State, private enterprise could provide absolute scandal. If the service were to close the service at approximately the same price. tomorrow the initial saving in this financial year would be more than $6 million. Why the When one considers that the Central Linen Government is not endeavouring to put the Service is handling 175 000 kg of linen for hos- service out to private enterprise is beyond me. I pitals per week, and one applies that to the say without hesitation that when we are Victorian private enterprise system, one sees returned to Government after the next election the saving would be 40c per kilogram. The total this will be one of the first enterprises we offer saving for one week would be $70000, and to private enterprise. over I12 months the saving would be $3.64 It is interesting to note that since the English million. It is a scandal that the Central Linen linen service was privatised, the saving in less Service is allowed to carry on in that way. This than 12 months has been $90 million. It is Government could save not only $3.1 million incredible but true, but this Government is in capital expenditure, but also $3.64 million ignoring that fact. per annum on the linen cleaning operation. Another factor I want to mention is that What the heck is the Central Linen Service nursing staff shortages are aggravated by the doing in business? It is operating at a great loss, fact that trained theatre sisters have to do the and it is a scandal. It is spending $3.1t million laundry as well. Under the private enterprise on a new building and is losing $3.6 million a laundry system, laundry which is returned for year compared with private enterprise oper- theatre work is prepacked. The service here in ations. So there is $6.7 million which would be Western Australia does not do that so the saved this year if the CLS went out of business. nurses have to spend some time sorting their own linen. However, there is more to it than that because that is only the direct saving. I under- The laundry industry in this State believes stand the Central Linen Service here has $5 that that expenditure of $3.6 million is but the million-worth of linen on its books. Imagine start. It is anticipated that by the time the new the saving to the State if the CLS did not have building is completed and new machinery in- to spend that sort of money buying linen and stalled, the total cost will be nearer $7 million. were able to sell it to private enterprise. The So instead of the cost being $3.16 million, it replacement cost over a period would be at will be nearer $7 million, an underestimation least $1 million a year. The service's machinery by the Government of $4 million. It is an absol- costs are in excess of $5 million, and we know ute scandal when one considers that the that the replacement cost of keeping machinery Government could save another $3.6 million. up to date is 20 per cent per annum. Apart It is time the Central Linen Service was closed from that there are other costs which can be down and private enterprise took over its oper- saved. ations so that the Government and the taxpayers have a chance of recouping some Firstly, there is income from sales tax be- money. I suggeMt and recommend that the cause Governments do not pay sales tax, Not Government attend to this matter as soon as many people realise that private enterprise possible. linen services pay a linen rental tax. I was not Mr COURT: I support the comments made aware of that. It amounts to thousands of dol- by the member for Clontarf. It is disturbing to lars per annum, and that is tax income which see that some $3 million is being spent, suppos- the Government does not get at the moment. edly for the relocation of the Swanbourne laun- The Central Linen Service obviously is not paying the water rates, so the Government dry to the other operations. The Government would collect that income. The Government has an ideal opportunity here to start putting would also gain from the waler purchased and some of its services out to private enterprise. The former Liberal Government can be the discharge costs because it costs laundries criticised for not doing that. money to discharge their excess water. That charge has not been made against the Central Mr Brian Burke: Why didn't it do that? 3966 3966[ASSEMBLY]

Mr COURT: I have read all the different Mr TUBBY: I would speak about three items reports about why it should or should not be which are of concern to me, two of which con- done. It should have been done, but it was not, cern my own electorate and one of which is in and that was a few years ago. the electorate of the member for Ceraldton. The most important item is the absence from We arc now in 1985 and I think it is an ideal the IIst of projects in the coming year of an opportunity for the Government to transfer allocation for a new kitchen to be built at the those services to the private sector. Mullewa District Hospital. I have brought this Mr Brian Burke: Why wasn't it done? This is matter to the notice of the Chamber on many a serious question. occasions because there is an urgent need for a new kitchen at the hospital in tvullewa. A pro- Mr COURT: Not being in Government at gramme for the redevelopment of that hospital the time, I would not know. I was not privy to has been in existence for some I0 years, and it what took place. was agreed that this redevelopment could be done in three separate stages. With the agree- Mr Brian Burke: I can tell you why. It did not ment of the medical department, it was decided make sense economically. It would have cost that the priorities in order would be firstly, a the taxpayers more. new kitchen; secondly, additional wards and, thirdly, an office and reception area. However, Mr COURT: I would not accept that expla- after consideration and before the funds were nation. I think it is 4uite challenging for a actually allocated, it was decided by the hospi- Government-no matter what Government is tal board, in conjunction with the medical de- in office, whether it be Liberal or Labor-to partment, that additional wards were more ur- put that sort of enterprise into the hands of the gently required than a new kitchen. Conse- private sector. I am very opposed to the huge quently, it was agreed that the first two buildup that is occurring in public hospitals priorities would be reversed, while the third and I would very much like to see the private remained the same. hospital sector Providing more of those ser- The new wards were constructed, and filled a vices. We now have public hospitals which are great need at that hospital. Before the wards huge and which are using these services. It is were added, it was considered that the kitchen not only the Hospital Laundry and Linen Ser- was totally inadequate to cater for the needs of vice which needs a little private sector the wards that were then available; so one can competitiveness, but also many other things imagine what the situation is like now with that are being provided to those areas. I am these new wards in use. It has virtually doubled concerned that $3 million is involved. I shud- the load on that very inadequate kitchen der to think what the public sector would do if set-up. I know that the hospital board has been it were given $3 million to get into that indus- pressuring members of Parliament and in fact I t ry. have brought this matter to the attention of the Chamber on many occasions. Last year or the The member for Clontarf obviously has had year before, the present Minister for Health did a lot of experience in this field. He cited an indicate to the hospital board that he realised example of what happened in another country the urgency of the situation and that the project in which they had done just that. I would have would be given a very high priority in the thought the Government would grab the oppor- Budget allocation. tunity to at least start shifting some of those Operations back to the private sector. That is I stressed last year that I was very disap- certainly a commitment which the Liberal pointed that this had not been included in last Party in this State gives. It is exactly the type of year's Budget and I lodge a very strong protest thing that we want to start achieving: That is. that it has not been included in this year's the transfer of functions that are carried out Budget either. currently by the public sector to the private Our shadow Minister for Health, Mr sector in Order to create a better service at a Thompson, was* in Mullewa recently and I lower price for the general public. I think we showed him the situation which, as the person could readily prove the taxpayer would receive responsible in the Opposition, he ought to a better service and a better deal. I am disap- know about. Mr Thompson took some photo- pointed that this huge amount of money is be- graphs. When one looks at the hospital in ing spent for this purpose and that the oppor- Mullewa, the kitchen is like a pimple on a tunity is being missed by this Government. pumpkin or an attachment on a matchbox, sit- [Thursday, 7 November 19851 396796 ting there waiting to fall off. The hospital at Mr TUBBY: I can assure the member for Mullewa is a substantial brick building but the Geraldton that there is no need to be terrified kitchen is of weatherboard construction which and that he should feel quite safe to at least has well and truly served its purpose. Some return to his own electorate, although I would four or five years ago the kitchen was consider- not say that he should be feeling safe that he ably renovated but this renovation was done will represent it next year. over the old frame and it was quite obvious However, I suggest the Minister give this that it would be able to service the hospital for matter serious consideration. The situation has only a limited lime. I believe the situation has been exacerbated since the addition of the rural reached the stage where the kitchen will have to and hospital courses offered by the college. be renovated again or some urgency given to it s With the considerable promotion of tourism to reconstruction. the area currently taking place, a lot of young Mullewa has a high percentage of Aboriginal people, in particular, would like to take advan- people among its population. Something like tage of the courses offered at the college. How- 65 per cent of the town's population comprises ever, they are unable to do so because of their Aborigines and, consequently, a lot of the inability to obtain suitable hostel accommo- patients of the hospital are Aborigines. dation. A wonderful facility has been Although the living conditions of these people constructed which is not being used by people have improved considerably in recent years in the area which the college was constructed to Aborigines still form a large percentage of the serve. I hope the member for Geraldton will be patients at the Mullewa District Hospital. The able to influence the Minister for Education to need for hygiene is, I believe, very urgent in- give this matter high priority. deed. The hospital board and the hospital staff I noted in the Budget a figure of $750 000 for do a marvellous job with the existing facilities, the upgrading of the prison in my electorate. I but I believe that their job has been made much mentioned the other evening that I thought harder because of the very poor conditions that there might be a mistake in the figure allocated exist with the kitchen at the Mullewa Hospital. to meet the repayments for the loan. The Min- I am sorry that the Minister for Health is not ister representing the Minister for Prisons present in the Chamber but I hope, if the made some comment. Liberal Party is not successful in gaining Mr Carr: I do not represent the Minister for Government next year, he will give consider- Prisons. I suggest you ask him a- question on ation to indicating to the Mullewa hospital that notice about this matter. rather than giving the kitchen a high priority, he will make it a matter of urgency that a new Mr TUBBY: Would the Minister have any kitchen be constructed, because the Mullewa idea whether there has been any provision in District Hospital deserves that consideration. the Budget for repayment of the loan raised for the construction of the prison by the shires? It I am glad the member for Geraldton has may be that there may not be a payment in the returned to the Chamber. When we on this side financial year. My understanding was that the were in Government, he pressed very strongly shires were to raise the loan and the loan was to the need for the construction of a hostel at the be repaid by the Government. Geraldton TAFE college. I do not know Mr Carr: I do not know the answer to that. whether he has forgotten about it, but I have not heard a peep out of him in this respect Mr TUBBY: I am concerned that we have to since his party came to office and he has been bri ng these matters to the Government's atten- in a position to influence the Government. tion tonight. I have covered the responsibilities of several Ministers. At the moment the Mr Carr: I am still pressing it but pressing it Treasurer is the only Minister sitting in the in a different forum. I understand from the Chamber. [ know that he is capable of handling Minister for Education (hat this hostel was on a wide range of responsibilities, but it would be the priority list and came very close but it did gratifying if a few more Ministers were in the not quite get up this time. Chamber to take note of the matters that I raise. Mr Blaikie: I thought the Government would have given you a pair tonight so that you could Mr Brian Burke: At the risk of inflaming be back in your own electorate. everybody, this is the debate on the Appropri- ation (General Loan Fund) Bill. I cannot re- Mr Carr: Does the member for Vasse think I member another occasion-that is not to say am terrified? that there has not been one-on which there 3968 3968[ASSEMBLY] has been a debate of this sort. Such debates are (Consolidated Revenue Fund) Dill he assidu- usually reserved for the CRF Bill and the Esti- ously went through and, to the best of his mates. All of these matters go to the ability, answered all of the questions raised Consolidated Revenue Fund and Budget Esti- during the debate. He also undertook, if he did mates. not have the answers, to pursue those questions Mr TUBBY: It is discouraging to be here on behalf of the members. To my knowledge, generally representing our constituents and very rarely, if ever, was Sir Charles Court finding that we are more or less talking only to queried, questioned, or criticised for not fol- the Hansard reporters who, I must say, do a lowing up those matters. tremendous job. On the other hand, in the second reading Mr MacKinnon: What about the Minister for debate of this Bill we have seen the Treasurer Agriculture? absent for long periods and, when he is in here, Mr TUBBY: I would not take advantage of concentrating on his favourite hobby. I do not the Minister, as the Treasurer took advantage think that is reasonable and I think the member of one of our members the other night. The for Greenough made a good point. Members of Minister is a little older than I am. -If he can Parliament expect to be able to raise issues on sleep, good luck to him. Because of the number the Estimates and the General Loan Fund and of people who have slept in the Chamber this have them answered. I believe that the Com- week, I think it was poor of the Treasurer to mittee stage of this debate is important. It is a make an example of one of our very good mem- time when we can raise issues of concern to our bers who spends much time in the House and electorates which cannot be raised in the Com- who makes valuable contributions to debates. mittee stage of the Consolidated Revenue Fund The publicity given to the matter was an insult debate. During the Consolidated Revenue to the member concerned, and I do not think it Fund debate I wanted to raise an issue relating did the Treasurer any good either. I will not say to schools in my electorate, but I would have any more because I know the Minister is not been brought to order if I raised the question of able to defend himself, and therefore I would the construction of the Leeming High School. not like to insult him. Mr Brian Burke: You could have raised mat- Mr Brian Burke: Without trying to be ob- ters relating to the construction of the high structive, the impression we get from you is school under the general item of education. that you are deliberately stonewalling because Mr MacKINNON: I am not talking specifi- it is not normal to debate this issue at such cally about education because this allocation is length. under the General Loan Fund. Mr TUBBY: I am not stonewalling. The mat- I share the disappointment voiced by the ters that I have brought forward are genuine member for Greenough that the majority of and sincere items of concern to people in my Ministers are not in the Chamber tonight. electorate. I hope I can feel that I am able to My first point relates to the Minister for Edu- take every opportunity to bring matters that cation's portfolio. concern me and MY electorate to the attention of the Government. Mr Brian Burke: He is interstate. Mr Brian Burke: Have you ever asked me Mr MacKINNON: I am aware of that, but it anything that I have not taken up and treated would have been far better had someone been with courtesy and efficiency for you? appointed to represent him tonight. Mr TUBBY: No, not that I can remember. I Mr Brian Burke: I give an undertaking that I am not criticising the Treasurer; I am only will ensure that Treasury goes through all the criticising him for the unfair advantage he took speeches on this Bill and that it will reply in of a member who was asleep the other night. writing to those points requiring an answer. Mr MacKINNON: In opening, I point out to Mr MacKINNON: I would like to do what the Treasurer that if he had followed the nor- the Treasurer has been wont to do on several mal example of what happens in this Parlia- occasions in this Parliament; that is, to give ment, perhaps we would not be having such a advice. I have been in this Parliament for nine lengthy debate this evening. When Sir Charles years and if the Treasurer dealt with Parlia- Court was Treasurer of this State he sat and ment in the proper manner and gave it the listened to the debate, At the end of the second respect it deserved, gave the members the re- reading debate on the Appropriation (General spect they deserved, and treated this debate Loan Fund) Bill and the Appropriation seriously it would have been completed hours [Thursday, 7 November 1985J]96 3969 ago. The only reason members on this side are vision of facilities at that school. testy-they have been given no instructions In a responsible manner, the parents of the from me as the acting Leader of the Opposition school approached the Government and myself tonight on this matter-is that they are free to this year about the second stage. They could see raise any issues they like during the debate. that more facilities would be required at the That is the way it should be. I repeat that if the site for the 1986 school year. In fact, in three Treasurer had treated this debate properly it days they collected over 300 signatures to a would have been completed more quickly. petition which I presented to this Parliament. I will give an example: My colleague, the They also wrote to the Minister. The allocation, member for Karrinyup, raised a question about although welcome, will mean that facilities will prisons. His question could have been not be completed until well into the 1986 aca- answered in a flash. Instead of his taking five demic year. As a consequence, we will have a minutes to put across his point he was forced to primary school of 550 students with nine make a 30-minute speech. transportable classrooms on the site. While I Mr have no objection to transportable classrooms I Brian Burke interjected. think it is crazy economies that four of them Mr MacKINNON: If the Treasurer wants to will be brought on to the site at the beginning answer the question raised by the member for of next year and will be removed when the Karrinyup he can do it in his own time and not school is completed. For a small amount of in mine. money the Government could ensure that the I refer to the Leeming High School and in Willetton children attending the Rostrata doing so congratulate the Government for school will have proper facilities. making an allocation for the completion of the [Quorum formed.J first stage. However, I criticise the Government for what it did this academic year. The students Mr MacKINNON: I refer now to the amount from the Leeming High School have had to of $986 000 allocated this year for attend the Melville Senior High School which halls-gymnasia. I commend the Government is nine kilometres from the new high school for the action it has taken, together with the site. This occurred because the Government local authority, in providing a community hall- did not see the priority of the construction of gymnasium at the Leeming High School. it will the Leeming High School as being very high. be a sensible use of resources and that type of The students have been transported by bus or activity should have been undertaken a long by their parents from the site to the Melville time ago. Senior High School. It is not acceptable and I I am disappointed that at the Woodvale High said that at the beginning of the school year, School, which is an outstanding facility, the and I say it again. I hope that the Government hall, gymnasium and library will not be used does not repeat this exercise in other areas. for extensive periods during the year. It is not a I congratulate the Government for making a joint Govern ment-community orientated proj- commitment to build a primary school at Bibra ect and that is a tragedy. The time has well Lake. This has been long overdue as have the passed when we could build expensive facilities provision of other services to this area, be they for the exclusive use of schools. provided by the Government or the private I understand that you. Mr Chairman, have Sector. such a facility in your electorate. The The parents in the Bibra Lake area have been Rockingham Technical College has a joint very active this year and have put their point of school-community library which is enjoyed by view to the Government. On their behalf I ex- the general pubic. it has worked well and it is a tend thanks to the Government for its decision. sensible use of resources. Mr Chairman, your electorate is similar to I give a commitment that as pant of the Lib- mine because it is growing very quickly and in eral Party's education policy it will ensure, as such electorates the provision of schools is a far as possible, that new facilities, particularly concern shared by the local member of Parlia- senior high schools, will involve a community men t. orientated facility. The third point I raise is in criticism of the The Treasurer indicated earlier that the ques- Government. I refer to the Rostrata Primary tions we raise will be answered by correspondence. School. This year it was granted a partial allocation of $200 000. 1 say "partial" because it is Mr Clarko: I hope he doesn't send it through only part of the amount required for the pro- Australia Post. 3970 3970[ASSEMBLY]

Mr MacKINNON: Yes. That is really an I make one briet comment with respect to the empty promise. allocation for police. Last night I raised the The next item I wanted to raise is that with matter of the lack of police services, with re- respect to "Contingencies" under the spect to police officers and buildings, in my "Miscellaneous" heading. The proposed allo- electorate. Since that time, I have made a cal- cation for 1985-86 is $1I377 000, as opposed to culation that shows how much the Government last year's expenditure of $591 497. 1 would is pork-barrelling its electorates in relation to have thought that had the Treasurer been doing police services. In the 1984-85 year, 79 per cent his lob, which he clearly is not, and had he of the police vote under the General Loan treated this Parliament properly, which he Fund was spent in Labor electorates; 21 per clearly does not, it would have been quite a cent was spent in Liberal electorates. To be simple matter for him to clear up the detail of fair, a part of that expenditure was in Perth and that particular concern in the Parliament Maylands where there are central facilities, so I tonight. That will not be the case. I will have to excluded figures relating to them from the cal- put a question on the Notice Paper to get the culations. In 1984-85, the amount spent in answer; alternatively, I will have to wait to see Labor electorates still represented 42 per cent whether the Treasurer's Promise of answering of the allocation, while the amount spent in questions by correspondence is honoured. As non-Labor electorates represented 21 per cent. members on this side of the Chamber said, let The amount spent in electorates held by Labor us hope that such correspondence does not members was twice that spent in electorates have to go through the Australia Post system, held by non-Labor menbers. but is couriered to the House so that we get the answers prior to the next election. Mr Carr: Can I make a point there? Mr Read: You arc rubbishing a lot of people Mr MacKINNON: Perhaps the Minister can out there in the community, aren't you, by make a point if he is not going to be disrespect- rubbishing Australia Post? ful to the Chair by making it from a point other Mr MacKINNON: Australia Post and the than his own seat. unions involved with Australia Post deserve to have condemnation heaped upon them. The Mr Carr: I vacated my seat so that the unions involved with the black ban on mail Treasurer could be in contact with his adviser. going to South Africa deserve twice as big a It could indicate a distortion if you were to take bucket. only one year's figures. If you were to look back at the corresponding figures for last year, you Another area of concern to people in the would see that all of the new police stations community and me is the significant reduction which were built last year were built in Liberal in the amount that has been allocated for electorates. We built them at Cranbrook, transportable classrooms in this year's Budget. Perenjori and Denmark. Last year, $602 195 was allocated; this year the amount is only $500 000. That is a tragedy. Mr MacKlNNON: The Minister for Police There are schools in this State that are in need and Emergency Services could not have heard of resources. Such schools would gladly wel- me properly. I was referring to the 1984-85 come such resources, even in the form of a expenditure, and the amounts that were spent transportable classroom. in Labor electorates on police buildings was 42 I spoke this evening to a person from per cent of that total expenditure. That ex- Kununurra who was concerned because two cludes both Maylands and Perth. The compar- transportable classrooms had been removed able figure for this year, excluding Maylands from the school there. The person involved be- and Perth, is 47 / per cent of the total for lieved that those classrooms were very necess- Labor electorates, and 7'/2 per cent for Liberal ary for the ongoing quality of the education or non-Labor held seats. It is only 7'/2 per cent programme being delivered at that school. in an election year. So much for an However, those classrooms have been removed even-handed approach! I do not think that and given to other communities which must be there has been an even-handed approach. As I in more desperate need of those resources than said in this Chamber last evening, the electors the school in Kununurra. It can be seen that the of Murdoch know exactly how poorly they have removal of the classrooms was necessary be- been dealt with and I intend to remind them on cause of the insufficient funds going into that a regular basis during the lead-up to the next area. election. [Thursday, 7 November 1 985) 397137 I reinforce the comments made by the mem- similarly in Pinjarra, because there is just not ber for Karrinyup in relation to prisons. It enough accommodation for those students. The seems remarkable to me that the Government Minister has pointed out that there is some can make an allocation in the Budget of accommodation available at the pre-school in $700000 for acquisition of land for a new Harvey. I have not checked up on that yet, but prison site, yet according to Ministers opposite I will certainly do so tomorrow. the Government does not yet know where it will buy that land. In answer to questions The problem is that fees for pre-schools are raised in both this Chamber and the other in the vicinity of $50 a quarter, whereas there is House of the Parliament, the Government not such a charge for pre-primary schools. indicated that nobody is to know until after the There is probably some charge, but it would be election. That seems very strange to me and I minimal compared with the amount paid to the wonder why that is the case. The Government pre-school. At Pinjarra, 16 students have been obviously fears an electoral backlash, but I can- denied admission to the pre-primary school. not understand why it should do so. I represent The Minister has said that accommodation is the area that contains the Canning Vale Prison. available at Carcoola but Carcoola is some We, as a Government, constructed that prison kilometres away. There is an additional prob- and my vote did not suffer significantly as a lem in that any five-year-olds from Pinjarra consequence of the decision, to build that attending Carcoola pre-primary school would prison. I believe that the Government has lost then go on to the Pinjarra Primary School and support in the area because of the lack of atten- would not be able to mix with the same people tion paid to security at that prison. It has re- they attended pre-primary school with. It moved armed guards from the towers and those would mean that those children would again towers are not manned at all times. have to become familiar with the new sur- roundings and with the other children who Mr Bradshaw: It's a wonder they don't give attended the Pinjarra pre-primary school the keys to all the prisoners. previous year. It is wrong that the Minister has Mr MacKINNON: I think one of the pris- not seen fit to provide that accommodation oners was endeavouring to do that just re- although the Government made a pre-election cently, until they found out that he was making promise that all five-year-old children would be keys in the prison workshop. accommodated. If the Government is honest and up front it Another interesting fact that has come to my will come out and let the community know attention is that the figure under "additions exactly where that prison site will be prior to and accommodation" has increased from the next election. If it does not do that it will $632 522 to $3.768 million. In answer to a fail in its responsibility and it will deserve the question on 17 October, the Treasurer pointed condemnation of the electors of this State. That out that the additional $2.43 million was for condemnation will undoubtedly be heaped on fitting out the Austmark building in Bunbury. the Government when the electors get the Basically, this building is a facade erected by chance at the polls next year. the Government to create the impression it is The CHAIRMAN: Before I call the member doing something in the Bunbury region. The for Murray-Wellington, I advise members that Government has been quoting figures of 400 I have authorised an adviser to sit in the Government employees who will be working Chamber next to the seat which is normally from Bunbury, most of whom will be occupied by the Minister for Police and Emerg- transferred from the metropolitan area. ency Services. I advised the Treasurer that I Earlier this year a steering intend to recognise committee was set him from the seat normally up to work out how to effect the transfer of occupied by the Minister for Police and Emerg- Government employees from the metropolitan ency Services. In view of that I intend also to recognise that area to the Bunbury region to fill the Austmark Minister from the seat he now building. That steering committee immediately occupies. formed a subcommittee, which was called the Mr BRADSHAW: I would like to point out incentive subcommittee, to work out incentives some of the Budget's gross deficiencies with for the workers who were to be transferred. It respect to my electorate. I refer to the obviously became a hot potato because the pre-primary education that has been promised recommendations were sent directly to Cabinet by the Government for all five-year-olds. In without going through the steering committee. Harvey, for example, young children have been I understand that the steering committee has refused admission to pre-primary school, and met on only one occasion. 3972 3972[ASSEMBLY]

Cabinet has rejected the incentives recom- Mr P.1J. Smith: Did you get them honestly or mended by the subcommittee to be given to dishonestly? employees transferred by the Government to Mr BRADSHAW: Honestly. Bunbury. One of the reasons that the Govern- ment has dropped this scheme like a hot potato Mr Parker: How up-to-date are they? is that it has created much ill-will between Mr BRADSHAW: To the present day. other Government employees, particularly Mr Parker: And you got those figures from those in the Bunbury area. the Civil Service Association? How did they get The Government has decided to push this them? matter under the carpet until the election has Mr BRADSHAW: I think that it has an input been held, and it will then resurrect it and twist into the committee. people's arms to go to Bunbury. It is obvious In reply to questions asked earlier this year that the Government has convinced only 74 and some asked last year, the Government employees to transfer. Of that figure, 22 are indicated that approximately 400 public ser- employed by the Water Authority and 43 by vants would be transferred to the Austmark the Education Department. That is an tower. The current Figure is 166 employees who interesting fact because the south-west regional will probably just about fill three floors of the office of the Education Department has building. approximately 28 bureaucrats working for it, who are not involved in the teaching area but Quorumn in administration. Of course, these people are necessary to the department but an increase of Mr BLAIKIE: I draw your attention, Mr 43 staff members certainly represents an Chairman, to the state of the Chamber. expanding bureaucracy which will not necess- The CHAIRMAN: I find that more than IS arily Provide any benefit to the education minutes have passed since the last drawing of system. my attention to the state of the Chamber and I Mr D. L. Smith: It does not involve expan- also find that there is not a quorum. sion but transfer of functions from Perth to Bells rung. Bunbury. Mr BRADSHAW: I would like to hear more Point of Order of that. I do not want to criticise the Govern- Mr BLAIKIE: Mr Chairman, is it a requirement if this move will be of benefit to the ment that members be sitting in their seats south-west region. I would like the Minister to while you are counting the House? reply, but he is probably home in bed now as Mr Tonkin: You cannot raise a point of or- the Treasurer usually is at this time of night. der now. There is not a quorum present and the In addition to the transfers I have Chamber is not properly constituted. mentioned, five employees from the Depart- The CHAIRMAN: When quorums are called ment of Conservation and Land Management, I have the right to count members anywhere two from the Occupational Health, Safety and within the precincts of the Chamber. Members Welfare Commission, and two public servants behind the chair or in the Speaker's Gallery can have been transferred. That makes a total of 74 be counted for the quorum. employees. Employees from various departments in Bunbury will transfer to the Austmark [Quorum formed.] tower; 40 from the Water Authority, 24 from the Department of Conservation and Land Cointinittee Resumed Management, and 28 from the Education De- Mr BRADSHAW: It looks as though late partment. That makes a total of 92 employees. nights are making Government members slug- gish as far as maintaining Mr D. L. Smith: Where is the authority for a quorum is con- those figures? cerned. I can remember one occasion early this year when we sat on a Friday and the Govern- Mr BRADSHAW: Would the member be- ment had great trouble keeping this Chamber lieve the Civil Service Association? in order. It was decided finally to call the busi- Mr D. L. Smith: It has provided those figures ness off, and the Government will probably do to you? the same tonight. Mr BRADSHAW: No, they were not I was referring to the number of people who provided to me but to someone else who passed have so far been rounded up to fill the them to me. Austmark building in Bunbury-which has [Thursday, 7 November 1985]197 3973 been referred to as the Taj Mahal. It seems that The matters I want to raise relate to schools. the building has become a white elephant. I indicate at the outset that I am most Earlier this year 1 asked whether the Govern- appreciative of the finance the Government ment had contemplated subleasing some of the has provided to the schools at Busselton. floor space in (hat building. The Government Busselton Central School was opened by the tried to say that it was not its intention to do so Minister last week. An administration centre but that it would consider any offers made. In and schoolroom were added to the school. other words, the Government is having diffi- Those additions were long overdue and very culty filling the offices in this building. important for the community. I acknowledge The Government has taken a 25-year lease my appreciation of the Government's work in on the office space in the building at twice the that area. That profct cost $234 000 last year. going rate for such accommodation in The Minister opened it only a couple of weeks Bunbury-com parable floor space is available ago. at $70-SO a square metre. in its wisdom, at In the last financial year the Margaret River some early stage the Government pointed out Primary School received $130 000, and again that it was getting great value when it leased in this financial year a further $6000. This this accommodation at $150 a square metre. year $136 000 will be spent at the Margaret To add insult to injury it now cannot fill the River Primary School. I indicate my building and it is contemplating subleasing appreciation of the Government's involvement some of the floor space. in expenditure at that school. At this stage the Government has achieved While the Minister was performing the open- what it set out to do; that is, to create the ing ceremony in Busselton, he said he had impression that it is doing something in agreed that day to funding to provide an extra Bunbury. It has plenty of taxpayers' money to area at the Busselton Central School. use and can increase the taxes and charges if I note that this financial year a sum of necessary, to finance such schemes. $708 000 is provided for covered areas under An amount of $2.43 million has been set the heading "Other School Facilities." Again I aside for fitting out the Austmark building, indicate my support for and appreciation of the which is a considerable amount for three floors Government's role. The Busselton Central of accommodation. It will be interesting to see School will receive an important facility as a whether the Government resurrects the result of that funding. steering committee or the incentive sub- The opening at Busselton was an important committee after the election and introduces one. The Minister visited the school, and on more incentives to induce public servants to that day there was quite an amount of rain in transfer to Bunbury. I thought at the time when the district. No doubt that assisted the Minister the Government said it would transfer these to see the need for this covered area. public servants that it might have some diffi- Some matters relating to education in my culty because these employees will probably area have given me some concern. While I have have families, and children at school in Perth, acknowledged the work the Government has and they will not wish to disrupt their families. They may also have some difficulties done, I indicate my concern that the Govern- if they ment has not seen the priorities correctly. The own a house in Perth. I guess some incentives Margaret River Primary School should be com- are required, but the suggested incentives pletely refurbished. The cost is $350 000, yet stirred up the other public servants working in nothing has been included in the works pro- the Bunbury region. It is a political hot potato. gramme. It will not go away after the election and the I indicate my concern to the Govern- ment that it did not include an allocation for problem will remain if the Government intends to give incentives to the people who move to refurbishing that school. Bunbury. lBusselton High School was originally built to cater for some 500 students. The current Mr BLAIKIE: I compliment you, Madam student population is 800. It is long overdue for Deputy Chairman (Mrs Henderson), on the a further extension of the school buildings. role you play in that office. You certainly lift What is needed is a number of additional class- the standard of the office of Chairman. It is an rooms. There is a hotchpotch of demountables important role you play, and it is important to in the school grounds. My understanding was see a lady in that position. You do great credit that the school expected to receive priority in to the position you hold. the works programme during this financial 3974 3974[ASSEMBLY] year. That work looked like costing some indicated, or does it mean that there has been $800 000, yet an allocation was not made, so an error in the drawing up of the General Loan we have an overcrowded school. This is causing Fund Estimates of Expenditure? the staff and the student population some con- Mr Brian Burke: I think it very unlikely that cern. Treasury would make an error. It is a worry to parents because it is an im- Mr Clarko: It is nice of you to come back, Mr portant region and it is a growing school. Bear Treasurer. in mind that the Busselton High School takes year I I and 12 students from both the Nannup Mr Brian Burke: I am pleased to be here. and Margaret River regions. Thank you very much. In the comments in the supplement to the Mr BLAIKIE: I would concur with the com- Loan Estimates speech under the heading on ment made by the Treasurer that it would be page 3 of "Education" an amount of $88.'7 most unlikely for Treasury to in fact make an million is proposed in 1985-86 on education error. But I point out to the Treasurer that buildings and related activities. It then says- there is this discrepancy between the Loan Esti- mates speech and what is proposed to be Primary and Secondary expended because it certainly does not show up The Education Department will under- in the Estimates of Expenditure under the Gen- take a capital works programme of $49.2 eral Loan Fund. Perhaps the Treasurer could million. indicate by way of interjection whether there is An amount of $36.7 million has been any reason for that to be the case. provided for the continuation or Mr Brian Burke: For what to be the case? completion of work in progress and the Mr BLAIKIE: For this difference to occur following is a summary of significant between the two documents. works:- Mr Brian Burke: I am not sure what differ- It then goes on to say- ence there is. I will obtain a list of your points provision of secondary education facilities and, rather than your going back over it again, I at a number of remote schools including will make sure you are informed. Fitzroy Crossing, La Grange, Looma, One Mr BLAIKIE: It is either a difference in Arm Point, Wiluna and Warburton Wording or a difference in the allocation of Ranges; where this funding will go. Based on the as- I have searched the vote in relation to second- sumption of what is contained in the Loan Esti- ary school buildings, be they additions Or ad- mates speech, secondary education facilities ditions and improvements, and I can find no will be located at those remote schools. I do not vote whatsoever in relation to that matter. A question the Government's determination in number of schools are mentioned in that vote. that area. If it can fund those facilities it will be For the edification of the Treasurer's assistant, to the advantage of those remote or isolated it is in that paper. A number of schools have areas. It is a very important project. been mentioned but those which have been I submit to the Government that further specifically singled out in the supplement to favourable consideration should have been Loan Estimates speech are not included in re- given to the Margaret River High School for gard to secondary or high school buildings. the provision of secondary education facilities They are certainly not included in district high at that school. It will cost many millions of schools. dollars for the upgrading of these other schools My second point in regard to additions and to take place. A very simple upgrade could improvements to primary schools is that the have been done to the Margaret River High Fitzroy Crossing Primary School was allocated School within the existing Structure without some $604 000. The La Grange School was any increase in costs to the structure which allocated some $384 000, the Looma School already exists. I have already said that the $316 000, the One Arm Point School $396 000, school is in need Of Upgrading and the Wiluna School $444 000 and the refurbishment, but the existing school build- Warburton School $591 000. My question to ings are adequate at this stage in order to up- the Minister handling the Bill is: Has this in grade the school to a suitable education facility. fact been a typographical error and does it The member for Murdoch expressed his con- mean that secondary school facilities will not cern over the amount of money that has been be extended to the remote schools as I have spent in Labor electorates in this pre-election [Thursday, 7 November 19851 397537 year. I draw the Treasurer's attention to one is no police station planned for either of those area I have checked out. It relates to page 14 in towns in this Bill. I want to make a plea for relation to additions and improvements to pri- that area. The proposal the Government put mary schools. Total expenditure in that area forward prior to the election was very valid, amounts to some $5.8 million, yet of that $5.8 and it should carry out its promise. The million about $5 million, according to the Esti- Government may say there is a shortage of mates of Expenditure, is being spent in Labor funds, but I do not believe the Government has electorates. This is clearly indicative of the been fair and honest in this regard. It should Government's attitude and its expenditure in a have met the requirements of an area which is pre-election year. growing very rapidly. In relation to both Capel Mr Brian Burke: Rubbish! and Augusta the Government has erred and failed to meet its full responsibilities. Mr BLAIKIE: The Treasurer may well say it is rubbish, but the fact of the matter is that the A further matter I wanted to raise relates to figures are contained in the Budget papers. The technical colleges and the catering schools at Budget papers tell the story and the people will Albany. Bentley, and Bunbury. The catering make their own j.udgment. This General Loan schools in those areas are very important and Fund debate gives members the opportunity to have done a tremendous service for Western draw the weaknesses and the favouritisms of Australia. I can certainly say with some per- the Government when it is in fact assisting sonal knowledge that those schools give their Labor electorates- students a standard of education which is probably equal to anything in Australia. I want Mr Brian Burke: Do you mean "draw out" in to compliment the staff in the catering studies terms of detail or in terms of time? field for the high quality of education they pro- Mr BLAIKIE: I mean in terms of presenting vide. Western Australia is very fortunate in- the argument to the Treasurer that I am con- deed in having lecturers who provide such a cerned the Government is pork-barrelling its high standard of education and who are them- electorates in a pre-election year. selves held in high regard in the catering indus- I want to refer now to police stations. I have try in Australia and overseas. some concern for the electorate I represent. I Those schools are turning out students for would have anticipated that Augusta would be the tourist industry, but it is a matter of con- given priority for a fully-manned and operated cern to me that while the State turns out police station in the town. It is a very import- students of high quality a dramatic downturn is ant area, and one that is growing significantly. occurring in job opportunities in the catering It has a resident population of about 500 industry as a result of the recent tax on fringe people, but during holiday periods it swells to benefits by the Commonwealth Government. 2 000 to 3 000 people. In the absence of any That tax is a cause of concern to the catering permanent police station the town has to be industry. People are being put off, and their serviced from Margaret River. That puts complaints have foundation. Any member of further strain on the Margaret River police, this Chamber would be able to go to res- and in turn on the Busselton police, and it taurants and catering establishments within his upsets the balance of police movement in the or her electorate and be told of the real diffi- area. culties those people are facing as a result of the fringe benefits tax. One finds that staff are be- Mr Read: How far is it from Augusta to Margaret River? ing retrenched throughout the State. Mr Brian Burke: The unemployment rate is Mr BLAIKIE: It would be 35 to 38 miles. falling satisfactorily. The matter is certainly of concern to the resi- Mr BLAIKIE: Is the Treasurer saying there is dents of that community. They should be no concern in the restaurant trade? provided with a manned police station. I will certainly be continuing my representations on Mr Brian Burke: I said the unemployment this matter. rate is Calling satisfactorily. I do not know how the member can translate that into an ex- I want to remind the Government that in its pression of no concern in the restaurant indus- policy speeches prior to the 1983 election, it try. indicated to the people of the south-west, and of the Mitchell electorate in particular, that it Mr BLAIKIE: l am saying there is concern in was going to build fully-manned police stations the restaurant industry. at Capel and Dardanup. However. I note there Mr Brian Burke: I didn't say there wasn't. 3976 3976(ASSEMBLY]

Mr BLAIKIE: What the Treasurer ought to The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I refer the do is ensure that the Federal Government is Treasurer to Standing Order 304(5), which is as aware of what it has created by introducing this follows- legislation and the fact that this imposition is (5) Unless otherwise ordered by causing widespread concern. Sessional Order, the following rules shall The South Western Times last week carried a be observed in Committee:- headline "Restaurant Trade Crises". The (a) when a motion is made in Committee article indicated that restaurant staff have been to omit or reduce any item of a Vote, a retrenched. That is happening in the metropoli- question shall be proposed from the tan area, the Albany region, and members will Chair for omitting or reducing such find it is happening around the State in general. item accordingly; and Members shall It is not going to end simply with the restaurant speak to such question only, until it and hotel industry; it will extend to the service has been disposed of;, industry. It is a matter of concern and I believe I take that to mean that a motion may be the Government ought to act and certainly moved to both omit or reduce any item of a make representations to the Federal Govern- Vote. ment to at least bring to its attention the consequences of this matter. In my view the Mr MacKINNON: Could you advise the tourism industry is probably the only industry Chamber, Madam Deputy Chairman, what the that has the opportunity to boom in Western speaki ng arra ngement s for i temins are? Australia, and an imposition such as we are The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: It is the same now seeing will have dire consequences for that with speaking arrangements as to the item. industry. That is, the first speaker may speak firstly for Mr MENSAROS: Am I permitted to ask a 15 minutes and secondly for 10 minutes. question on an item appearing on page 10, which has no item number? It has a dash Committee Resumed against it. Mr MacKINNON: I move an amendment- To reduce this item by $ 10 000 000. The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mrs Henderson): No, I am informed that you can- The Opposition is introducing this motion not. because we do not believe that we should, as a Parliament, approve funds which are being Division put and passed. allocated to bodies which are not accountable Division-Treasury, $17 294 000- in any way to the Parliament. A Press statement issued on 5 November by the Leader Item: Advances to Sundry Bodies- of the Opposition reads as follows- Mr MacKINNON: The Opposition has We cannot give our approval to the ex- indicated that under this item we wish to move penditure of taxpayers' money for organis- to delete the expenditure relating to the West- ations which have no accountability to the ern Australian Development Corporation and public. Western Australian Government Holdings Ltd. I would add that these organisations do not Madam Deputy Chairman, could t seek your have any accountability to the Parliament, as advice on how I should do this? we debated recently under the amendment to The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mrs the audit legislation. There is not any account- Henderson): The Deputy Leader of the Oppo- ability to the Auditor General either. This is sition may move that motion. It is not an despite the fact that the people own Western amendment. It is a motion to delete the item Australian Government Holdings and the and he may speak to that. Western Australian Development Corpor- at ion-not the Treasurer of Western Australia, not the Opposition, and not the Parliament. Points of Order The people of Western Australia own those cor- Mr BRIAN BURKE: Madam Deputy Chair- porations and all the assets therein. Despite the man I do not question Your ruling but I would fact that the Treasurer promised very loudly ask for clarification. Are you saying that the when the WADC was first proposed that West- amendment is to be moved and not that the ern Australians would be able to take shares in Opposition should simply vote against. that it, that has not been the case. Had it been the item? case, we would probably not be here tonight [Thursday, 7 November 1985) 397737 debating this particular motion because the Government organisation. Is the Western shareholders would then have had rights under Australian Tourism Commission accountable the legislation or under the Companies Act to to Parliament? Are we able to ask questions question what is happening in respect of that about it? Is it responsible to Parliament for its company. In other words there ought to have actions and does it report responsibly? The been accountability to the shareholders, which answers, of course, are "Yes". We are able to is not the case at the moment. Despite the fact get the information we want from its report. that the treasurer states, and I understand, that The State Energy Commission is the biggest the acounts of WADC in particular comply corporation run by the Government. It is ac- with the Corporate Affairs Office regulations- countable to the Parliament. Its published ac- Mr Bateman: Subject to audit. counts are tabled in Parliament and it has to disclose a quite a lot of information so the Mr MacKINNON: That is correct, it makes general public have an idea of what is the corporation subject to auditing; but making happening to the organisation. The same it comply with the Corporate Affairs Office applies to Homeswest and to any other regulations has nothing to do with the account- Government organisation. ability of that corporation or its accountability to the people who own it. There are no share- The people of Western Australia own the holders' rights whatsoever. The shareholders WADC and it should be accountable to the do not have a say at any time in the outcome of people of Western Australia. It has not been that company's activities except at election held to be accountable to this Parliament to time. The shareholders do not have any rights date. directly through the Parliament either because Let us consider some of the questions to there is no need and no regulation for those which we have endeavoured to obtain answers accounts to be tabled in the Parliament, and from the Government. My colleague, the mem- there is no accountability to the Parliament. ber for Nedlands, has asked repeated questions Mr Brian Burke: The Opposition ensured about money-market operations. I need only to that it was accountable to the Parliament. refer to one which was asked on 21 August this year. The member for Nedlands asked- Mr MacKINNON: Despite the fact that the How many financial institutions have Treasurer says that the Opposition apparently closed or reduced their money-market op- made the corporation accountable to the Com- erations in Western Australia over the past missioner for Corporate Affairs as far as those yea r? reports are concerned- He obviously asked that because of the Several members interjected. increased activities of the WADC. The Mr MacKINNON: That has nothing to do Treasurer replied- with it. Whether or not it reports on the basis This information is not readily access- of Corporate Affairs requirements makes no ible to the Government. difference whatsoever. He was not prepared to mrove one inch to ob- Mr Brian Burke: You did not raise the point tain any information for the member. In ques- when it was passed. tion 3077 the Leader of the Opposition asked a Mr MacKIN NON: Again, that has nothing to question relating to the Argyle diamond mine do with it. negotiations carried out by the people's corporation, the Western Australian Development As I have indicated previously, the Treasurer Corporation. In reply the Treasurer said- should go and work for Mick Kailis, becaue he would do well in the red herring business. He As the member will appreciate, diver- trots them across the floor of this Parliament sion of considerable resources will be with monotonous regularity. Everything he has necessary to reply to this question. indicated tonight has nothing to do with the We have asked questions about the employees point we are making. The point being made by of the corporation. The employees are on the the Opposition is that we are being asked in the public payroll and not on the payroll of some Budget to allocate $10 million to two corpor- company that is accountable to private share- ations which have no accountability whatso- holders. They are employed by the public of ever to the Parliament or to anyone else, for Western Australia through the Government of that matter, other than to the Treasurer. I ask Western Australia and include such people as members to compare that with any other Keith Gale, Brian Easton, and others. 3978 3978[ASSEMBLY]

We asked a question about the level of Mr displayed interest in this matter. He says that if Gale's remuneration and were told that Mr they had been listed they would be in excess of Gale's remuneration is a matter confidential to $I million. The people of Western Australia are him. One could ask the same question about entitled to know. the director or any other employee of the Tour- The report elsewhere refers to consulting fees ism Commission, Homeswest, the State Energy paid to some of the directors. Those amounts Commission, Or any other Government body, are not included in the expenditure list. The and be provided with an answer. Almost every- public of Western Australia own the WADC; body in the Public Service knows everybody not the Treasurer, not the staff, but the tax- else's salary. That is the nature of the Public payers of this State. However, they are entitled Service. It is publicly accountable, and so it to know nothing. What rent does the WADC should be. pay? All of these basic bits of information that In what way is the WADC publicly account- are available for just about every other organis- able? It is accountable only to the Treasurer, ation in this State are not available for the and we are not privy to any information. We WADC. It is not a statutory corporation: it is a do not want to know how much Keith Gale creature of the Government which is not ac- earns. I do not mind how much he is paid. countable to Parliament. It is not accountable However, the public of Western Australia are for the $10 million that we are being asked to entitled to know. The public are entitled to this allocate to it. information through the Parliament of Western We do not tonight object to the Government Australia. wanting to have a development corporation. If Because the Treasurer wants to drag red her- that is its wont, it can have it. We will oppose it rings across the trail in all of these debates, I and criticise it because we do not believe in it. hasten to add that we do not hold any malice If we are to have that sort of corporation, against anyone working in those corporations. though, it must be accountable to the Parlia- It is the Government of Western Australia ment so that its actions can be properly which is accountable for these corporations. It questioned. is asking for $10million for which it will not be I again ask why it is not held accountable. accountable to the Parliament. What is the Government afraid of? What has it I could go on with the questions for some to hide? Is it worried that someone else may time. The member for Clontarf asked question gain a commercial advantage over it? That 1529 about travelling arrangements, and no would be impossible. The Government has all answer was given. The Treasurer might say that of the advantages. he has tabled the annual report for all to see. We are entitled to know what information He will say that surely that is accountable should be made available to the Parliament enough. It is not good enough. The public and to the people, and we will continue to op- shareholders have no right to go to the annual pose the allocation of funds to these groups general meetings and pose questions to the di- until they are made properly accountable to the rector. If it were a private corporation, its Parliament and the public of this State. shareholders would be entitled to vote on who the directors would be, and they could pass a Mr COURT: I support the amendment series of motions at that annual general meet- moved by the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- ing. But this is a public corporation owned by sition. The Opposition has always made its the people of Western Australia who do not position clear in relation to Government oper- have any right whatsoever. ations being heavily involved in business activities. It has debated and asked the Govern- I turn to the annual report of the corporation ment a number of questions about Western for 1984-85 to explain exactly what is not avail- Australian Development Corporation and WA able in that report. The report, on page 32, Government Holdings Pty Ltd. shows the operating profit for statutory divi- dends and gives a r~sumri of some income and As I understand it this is the only oppor- expenditure. What expenses have been tunity the Opposition has in the GLF and CRF excluded? I wonder why nothing has been in- debates to debate this matter. cluded for wages. I would have thought that In this case we have two amounts each of $5 wages were one of the prime outgoings that million being allocated to these two bodies. anybody would be interested in. Why were they The Opposition is opposed to taxpayer's funds not included and why arc we not entitled to being used in order that these bodies can know? Why were travelling expenses not in- operate. This applies particularly in the case of cluded also? The member for Clontarf has WA Government Holdings because it acts [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 373979 outside the control of Parliament and is not Members opposite should understand the accountable to it. As far as the Opposition is point we are making. We are not talking about concerned that creates a very dangerous situ- $1 million but, in fact, hundreds of millions. ation. The Opposition is appalled at the con- The taxpayers of this State have the right to tempt this Government has shown towards the know what is happening to these funds. taxpayers of this State. It appears that anyone-including members of the Opposition-who criticises the oper- On Wednesday 6 November 1 asked a ques- ations of this Government is, in the eyes of the tion about the operations of WA Government Government, a villain. We are always asked, Holdings and I received the usual reply; that is, "Why do you keep on persisting with the ques- "it remains commercially confidential to that tions?" I advise this Chamber that I have corporation". dozens of constituents who come to me because they are concerned about the different activi- Mr Read: That is right. ties of these bodies. Recently the Government started talking Mr COURT: The body to which I am referring is using hundreds of millions of dollars of about the flower business and not only a dozen taxpayers' funds and the Government is saying people, but also the entire industry became that we should not be asking questions about involved. what is happening with those funds. The On a weekly basis Opposition members have Government is missing the point and I suggest representations made to them by people who to the member for Mandurah that he makes a are concerned about many things. As a result, speech after me to make his point. we ask questions in this House, but we do not receive answers because the Government keeps The Deputy Leader of' the Opposition has saying, "It is commercially confidential and we already said the Opposition has asked a num- do not have to give an answer." ber of questions, but has not received the Mr Bridge The reason we are critical of you answers. In some cases we have been told that is that you Continue to attack those bodies. the figures will be made available in the annual Mr COURT: What can we be accused oP We report. However, the Opposition is unable to ask questions and we do not receive the obtain the information it requires. answers. We had an absurd situation recently when An amount of $6 million of Federal funds the member for Vasse kept asking questions of was channelled into Exim to help it purchase the Treasurer about the dealings of Exim in the Emanuel leases. That is a lot of money. properties in the Kimberley. Eventually, the Mr Mclver: It was not for the purchase of Treasurer said that he would give the infor- leases, but for the reconstruction of them. mation if Exim agreed that it should be given. Mr COURT: The Minister for Lands and After continual questions the Treasurer Surveys should understand that once these received a letter from Exim which said, -We do bodies get control of funds it is not a question not want to let out that information." Perhaps of what the Government wants them to do, but the member for Vasse will expand on that what they want to do. As much as the Govern- further. It is a crazy situation when the ment thinks it can direct them I am sure it will Treasurer says he can supply the information be to the contrary. WA Government Holdings only if' the organisation concerned says that the and its subsidiaries, including Exim, are of con- information can be released. We are talking cern to the Opposition because they do not about taxpayer's funds and it could very well be have Parliamentary authority Or regulatory that those funds are at risk. All sorts of things legislation and, therefore, are not controlled by could happen and the Treasurer is leaving him- an Act of Parliament. The Treasurer misled the self wide open. He will rue the day that these Opposition when we were debating the North- bodies were given taxpayer's funds without be- ern Mining Corporation (Acquisition) Bill in ing accountable to the Parliament. The this Chamber. Treasurer is lucky that the people running these organisations are trustworthy and capable. Mr Gordon Hill: Nonsense. However, this could change and because of the Mr COURT: It is not nonsense. If the mem- wide powers that have been granted the people ber for Helena were to read the speech it would running the organisations could run amuck take him only two minutes because it fills only with taxpayers' funds. haif a page. Northern Mining Corporation NL 3980 3980[ASSEMBLY] was purchased because the Government As of 15 November the Treasury will have wanted an interest in diamond mining. There funds in excess of $500 million. I will put some was no mention that it would be used as an questions on the Notice Paper to see just how investment body with different subsidiaries to much of that $500 million is in fact being start taking an interest in unlimited business. invested by the WADC. Very large sums of The Government now has a tool through which money are at stake and I think that we have it can have unlimited guaranteed dealings. every right to know that those funds are not There was a change in name from Northern being put at risk. Mining Corporation NL to WA Government Holdings Pty Ltd and no reason was given The Financial Administration and Audit Bill about what it would do. It will prove a maj or does not cover the activities of WADC and WA problem to this State. Government Holdings. I think that clause 38 deals with what securities and the like can be Another poinlt I wish to make is in connec- invested in. During debate on the Financial tion with a matter which I believe to be very Administration and Audit Bill the point was serious. On many occasions the Opposition has made that More controls should have been put expressed its concern about the fact that the in place by the Treasury with respect to how Treasury has allowed the bulk of its short-term the funds would be invested, that limits should money surplus to go virtually unsecured to the have been put on the amounts that could go to WADC for investment. Under the Act once it certain institutions and that there should have receives those funds it can invest them as it been a ranking of such institutions. Such con- sees fit. trols and a tightening up of the credit risk The Opposition has raised these concerns should be considered normal, good practice and as a result of the Acts Amendment when investing such large sums of money. All (Financial Administration and Audit) Sill the the eggs should not be put in one basket, but WADC can now become involved in bonds and should be spread out. In this case, the Treasury bank bills. In its annual report I noticed that its has put everything into the one basket, namely staff handles fixed securities. It is all very well the WADC. However, this House has no con- to be trading in this area, but it is an activity in trol over how the WADC handles those funds. which Treasury cannot become involved. An As I said earlier, it can invest as it thinks fit. organisation can make large profits trading in This is the only opportunity we have to de- this way but it can also make a loss. bate the funds that go to the WADC and WA That was the point I was making last week Government Holdings. We have to take the when I mentioned that the Municipal type of action we have in order to get the op- Authorities Victoria Investment Service was portunity to make it clear that we are very caught out by raising the level of interest rates. concerned about what is taking place. It is reported that that body was the victim of I raise also the issue of the profitability of high interest rates and errors ofjudgment by its WADC. It is very easy for the Government to money market dealers. That also highlights the ensure that this corporation makes huge often dangerous risk taken on by the cowboy profits. For example, it supposedly pays the element of the financial market in the gung-ho Treasury a market rate of interest for its funds. approach to trading securities. So it is possible, I would very much like to know at what rate it particularly in the market as it is today, to is paying the Treasury this week, because if it is make quite big trading losses. It is also reported paying the Treasury a market rate of interest that that body was buying bonds at less than 14 for funds it would be paying about 17 per cent. per cent and selling at near 15 per cent. The It might have its money invested in bank bills rate today is 15'/4 per cent for 10-year bonds. out at 90 days at 16 per cent. If it was paying a The WADC itself could be in a position of market rate of interest at present, it could well buying bank bonds at 16 per cent and selling be losing one per cent. We do not seem to get them at 18 per cent. answers to these types of questions. We have tried to find out the current I have asked questions about the Perth Tech- position by way of questions. Do Exim and WA nical College site. I would like to know the Government Holdings have book losses in answers to such questions as when it will be trading? The answer we got back yesterday was sold, for how much and that type of thing. that the position of the WA Development Cor- Huge book or real profits could be made by poration's money market portfolio remains selling the site to the WADC for X number of commercially confidential to the corporation. dollars-it could be well below market value- [Thursday, 7 November 1985]198 3981 and then passing it on to whatever body is the capital works are done on money borrowed going to develop the site. The corporation can outside the General Loan Fund, on the free then show up very large profits. market. Again, Parliament is not able to scruti- We make it very clear to the Chamber that nise those borrowings. we are concerned about what is taking place with WADC and WA Government Holdings. Out of the total $1 200 million capital works With WA Government Holdings, in particular, programme, only 13.75 per cent, $166 million, the Treasurer is putting himself in a very risky Is subject to the scrutiny of Parliament because position. that is the amount for which there is an appropriation and it is printed in bold figures in this Mr MENSAROS: The amendment by the booklet. The rest of the money cannot even be Deputy Leader of the Opposition, according to talked about in detail. I have proved that de- the Westminister system we operate under, spite the fact that when I first said so the Depu- amounts to a no confidence motion. The mo- ty Premier and the Leader of the House, in tion is about the accountability of the Govern- their usual patronising manner, said that I was ment. Before coming to power, this Govern- wrong and should have studied my Standing ment said many things about open government Orders. They said that it could be talked about. and made many accusations about the previous I proved today that it could not be talked Government hiding matters. With only normal about, through the Deputy Chairman, who did parliamentary scrutiny, those matters could not permit me to rise on the matter. The $254 have been found out about. This Government million for the pubic building programme has indulges in more and more cover-ups, es- not had even one dollar allocated to it as pan pecially with respect to the Western Australian of the vote. Development Corporation, the Exim Corpor- ation and WA Government Holdings. The There is a rebate under the General Loan Government is deliberately transferring activi- Fund to the Consolidated Revenue Fund for ties away from the scrutiny of this Parliament. the salaries and wages paid for organising these However, the same taxpayers' money is being capital works. However, that is only a small used with respect to these organisations as is item of $8 million plus. The rest of it, presum- being used with respect to bodies that do come ably, has been borrowed by the WA Building under the scrutiny of Parliament. Authority which was constituted about a year When we consider the seriousness of the mo- ago. Very few people know anything at all tion, we find it strange that not only is the about that authority. 1 asked the Minister for Treasurer not in the Chamber, but also he has Works a question about that authority. I asked shown no indication of trying to defend this no whether he had borrowed any money. He is confidence motion. that authority, no-one else. There is no board Mr Gordon Hill: There is nothing to answer or chairman, not even a clerk. The Minister for anyway. Works equals the building authority. The borrowing of such money would be for the Mr MENSAROS: There is nothing to answer simple purpose of cheating the Loan Council. I only because the Government does not take the say, "Good on the Treasury: that is a good matter seriously. It either does not understand move."~ the motion, or it does not take it seriously. It could be said that there are and always With regard to the $254 million, the Minister have been Government instrumentalities has said that he has no clue as to who borrowed which are not entirely accountable to the Par- it or for what purpose. That is the way the liament. Without having the faintest hope of funds of the State of Western Australia are be- ever receiving a reply, I emphasised several ing handled. Is this not a serious matter? Is it a times during the Budget debate that these laughing matter? Does it warrant the no confi- semi-governmental bodies to some extent have dence motion because the WADC and others always escaped parliamentary scrutiny. I refer, are heading the list? for example, to the State Electricity Com- mission, the Water Authority and Westrail. We were able to move this motion because Once, some or all of the borrowings for these for some inexplicable reason it has been de- authorities were made through the General cided by the hierachy of the Treasury that they Loan Fund. Now, looking at the very glossy should receive this money from the General publications outlining the estimates for the Loan Fund instead of from other borrowings, capital works programme, we find that most of under whatever name. 3982 3982[ASSEMBLY]

This is a no confidence motion, it is serious Several members interjected. and it at least deserves a Treasurer who cares- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (Mrs even if it is only on the surface-about Parlia- Henderson): Order! Order! ment and democracy, to defend the motion and to be present during the debate. Mr DAVIES: I thank members for helping Amendment put and a division taken with the with that advice. It is good to see that members following result- opposite are awake and alert at this time of Ayes 16 night. I congratulate them. I do not see the Mr Blaikie Mr Old member for Albany in this Chamber very Mr Bradshaw Mr Rushton often, I think he sleeps in his office. It is nice Mr Clarko Mr Spriggs that he is in this Chamber occasionally. Mr Court Mr Thompson Mr Grayden Mr Trethowan To return to this point of order, it seems to Mr MacKinnon Mr Tubby Mr McNe Mr Watt me that once the item has been dealt with and a Mr Mensaros Mr Williams vote taken it cannot then be redebated.The (7~)only item which could be debated under this Noes 22 item, if it can be debated at all, is Western Mr Barnett Mr Hughes Australian Government Holdings Ltd. Mr Bateman Mr Jlamieson Mr Bertram Mr Mclver The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The point of Mr Bridge Mr Parker order refers to Standing Order No. 304 on page Mrs Buchanan Mr Read 104. 1 refer members to sub section (5) (c), Mr Brian Burke Mr D. L. Smith which reads- Mr Terry Burke Mr P.J. Smith Mr Carr Mr Tonkin (c) after a question for omitting or reduc- Mr Davies Mr Troy ing any item has been disposed of, no Mr Evans Mrs Watkins Mr Hodge Mr Gordon Hill motion shall be made or debate al- (741r/r) lowed upon any preceding item; Pairs The whole of Item 7 relates to advances to Ayes Noes Mr Hassell Mr Bryce sundry bodies. My interpretation of the Stand- Mr Coyne Mr Pearce ing Order is that following debate on the mo- Mr Laurance Mr Grill tion moved by the Deputy Leader of the Oppo- M r Cash Mrs Beggs sition, we cannot return to any previous item, Dr Dadour Mr Taylor Mr Peter Jones Mr Tom Jones but at the moment he is seeking to speak on Mr Stephens Mr Wilson Item 7. Amendment thus negatived. We have dealt with the proposed amendment Mr MacKINNON: I am absolutely as- to Item 7. Should other members wish to speak tounded that the Treasurer did not have the to that item, I do not think anything in the courtesy to come into this Chamber during the Standing Orders would preclude them from debate on, as the member for Floreat said, a doing so because we have dealt with that item. censure motion against him and his Govern- I want to warn the Deputy Leader of the ment. During the time we debated that motion Opposition that when I call for order I expect the Treasurer was with the Press and did not him to come to order. have the courtesy to come to the Chamber to listen to the debate. I cannot understand why Mr MacKINNON: Thank you, Madam the Treasurer comes to Parliament at all; he has Deputy Chairman.!I apologise. spent the whole evening looking at his stamp collection and if he has not been looking at the Commnittee Resumed stamp collection, he has been making sure that Mr MacKINNON: It is astounding to me he gets the front page headline in tomnorrdiw's that we have just had a debate-a rather un- newspaper. usual one-of a type which I cannot recall having heard before in almost nine years in Point of Order Parliament. The vote was, as the member for Mr DAVIES: Is the honourable member able Floreat has indicated, in effect a censure on the to debate this item again? According to the Treasurer. As I said before, the Treasurer did Standing Orders once this matter has been not even have the courtesy to pay the Parlia- debated, it is clear that it cannot be debated ment or the Opposition the respect of coming again. in to answer that particular debate. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 383983

This is unprecedented. It beats me why he There will always be problems when taxpayers' even bothered to come in here this evening. An funds are used in this way. They have very even more interesting question, with no disre- wide powers as to what they do with those spect to the officer concerned, is why we have funds, but the taxpayers themselves cannot ask in the Parliament a departmental officer who, questions. As a result they are put in a difficult it seems to me, has offered not one word of position. advice to the Treasurer during all that time? Take the head of a department; let us say the As we have tried to point out in the debate Treasury, for example. Through this Parlia- already, without going over the same ground ment, we are able to ask questions and find out again, the Western Australian Development what is taking place. That is the object of ques- Corporation and Western Australian Govern- tions on notice and questions without notice. ment Holdings are not accountable to the Par- liament. It seems, from the activities of the Mr MacKinnon: In other words they are ac- Treasurer this evening, that he is not interested countable. in the Parliament of Western Australia; he is Mr COURT: Yes, they are accountable. In prepared to ride roughshod over it to ensure he this case I can understand the pressures put on gets his way, because he has the numbers. the staff working in these operations. Let me assure you, Madam Deputy Chair- The other point I want to make is in connec- man, the election is not far away and he will tion with question 15 15 which I asked on no- not have the numbers after the election. We tice on Wednesday. In pant (2) 1 asked- will make sure all the statutory authorities at present under the control of the Government What is the current market value of the are properly accountable. We will be paying Treasury's money market portfolio and members of Parliament the respect they de- what is its book value? serve. I can assure you, Madam Deputy Chair- The answer was- man, the institution of Parliament will be paid the respect it deserves by the Government of Treasury is not in the business of trading that day, which will be a Government of our securities. By the nature of its operations it political colour. will therefore not incur a loss of principal Mr COURT: I support the comments by the on its investments. As at 5 November Deputy Leader of the Opposition. We seem to 1985, Treasury had the amount of have been talking into thin air when we have $528 348 170 invested and this amount raised our points of concern in relation to these will be received in full on the maturity of two bodies and the $10 million involved. those investments. Mr Parker interjected. I want to make a comment that this amount might not necessarily be received in full. It is Mr COURT: It is all right for the Minister to possible for something to happen within the make that comment. This is the only oppor- WADC. There may be a loss of funds or some- tunity we have to discuss this particular matter. thing so that money cannot be repaid in full. It might be the end of the week and he might be getting tired and grumpy, but this is the oppor- That is exactly what happened last Friday, as tunity for us to make our points on this subject. I said, when a similar body in Victoria could Mr Parker interjected. not repay in full. in fact it will repay 97c in the dollar. So it is not like the Treasury itself which Mr COURT: It might be repetitive. It is cer- might invest, or which used to invest, in the tainly repetitive as we do not receive any short-term money market. It used to invest in answers to the questions we are trying to ask in bank secured bills and the like, so it was at no relation to these bodies. That is certainly re- risk. In this case, with the bulk of the funds petitive. going to the WADC, there is no guarantee they Mr MacKinnon: The Treasurer is rarely here, will be received in full on the maturity of those and when he is he might as well not be. investments. Mr COURT: The personnel working in those The other comment I made was in connec- bodies, the WADC and WA Government tion with WA Government Holdings. The Holdings and its subsidiaries, have a problem. Treasurer was not in the House when I raised No matter what one may call them, they are the point a number of times. The member for Government bodies using taxpayers' funds. Vasse asked for particular information on the These people are put in a difficult position. Emanuel properties, and the Treasurer said 3984 3984[ASSEMBLY] that he would see whether the information Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not want to lend could be released, provided Exim agreed to undue dignity-or any dignity-to this that release. so-called unprecedented move mentioned by Eventually, after persistent questioning, the the Opposition. I would like to point out gently answer came back. The Treasurer received a that it is so important and so unprecedented letter from the Managing Director of Exim. It that the Leader of the Opposition did not stay is only two paragraphs and is addressed to the for the debate. Premier, re Emanuel Properties. Mr MacKinnon: You know full well he had It said that the Exim Corporation was not to go to the Eastern States. You know he would willing to release documents held by Exim or have preferred this debate were put off till next its subsidiaries relating to the conditions of sale week. of the properties, as this would be a breach of Mr BRIAN BURKE: I know full well that he commercial confidentiality. It was asssumed would rather be on this side of the House. that the member for Vasse would not wish to None of that makes much sense. The truth is establish the undesirable practice of Exim di- that the Leader of the Opposition is in the East- vulging the essential private dealings of respect- ern States attending a Liberal Party leaders able people in the business sector of the com- meeting. I do not argue with that. Good luck to munity. It was signed by B. Easton, Managing him. I think the clutch of them need all the help Director. and advice they can give each other, but he is The member for Vasse had been asking ques- still not here for this earth-shattering, unpre- tions for weeks trying to obtain this infor- cedented, unique and absolutely disappointing mation, because we were concerned about how development. those dealings had taken place. We saw that $6 Mr Thompson: You haven't been here for million of Federal funds was given to the body half the debate on your Budget. to carry out a project it had in hand. After Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not understand much questioning we received the answer that that to be any challenge to my statements about we could not have the information. the Leader of the Opposition ducking out on People wonder why we say there could be a this unprecedented, enormous, exciting, en- cover-up. There could well be a cover-up; we thralling challenge. That is the first thing, but would not know as this Chamber is not given that is not an important matter. the details. We have bodies with millions of dollars of taxpayers' funds and we do niot seem Several members interjected. to be able to find out what is taking place. The CHAIRMAN: Order! It concerns me that the Treasurer did not see Mr MacKinnon interjected. fit during debate on the motion on the funding The CHAIRMAN: Do not go on incessantly of these two bodies to defend the requirement after I call order. for those funds to be given to those bodies and answer our concerns about them. Members op- Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Western posite might say this is repetitive; they have Australian Development Corporation and heard it all before. I am afraid they will hear a Western Australian Exim Corporation rep- lot more because it is of great significance to resent two of the most exciting and innovative this Parliament. It might be two or three years policy initiatives ever undertaken in the history down the track, but if things continue as they of this State. In years to come, in the same way are, this is what will happen. Hopefully it will as the R&I Bank is a jewel in the crown of this change in a few months. State's financial and economic image, the Western Australian Development Corporation The CHAIRMAN: Order! It is not appropri- and the Western Australian Exim Corporation, ate to talk at length about an amendment too, will glitter and be prized. Before too much which has already been discussed. It is no ap- longer both of those bodies will, through their propriate for me to stop you talking about the assets in the public sector, the expansion of the items or the sections of the item. I hesitate to economy which they Provoke and the manage- allow you to continue to speak in respect of the ment of this State's public assets, be making matter as if there was an amendment still be- profits of millions of dollars that will go fore the Committee. towards relieving the pressure on Government Mr COURT: Thank you, Mr Chairman. You as it is expressed in terms of taxes and charges will be pleased to know that I have finished my imposed on the public. That is what annoys the comments. Opposition about the Western Australian De- [Thursday, 7 November 1985]198 3985 velopment Corporation and the Western Mr BRIAN BURKE: Anyway, I was saying Australian Exim Corporation. They are private that the Western Australian Development Cor- enterprise-model bodies operating on strictly poration and the Western Australian Exim commercial lines and representing the public Corporation, directed and managed by private interest which have already been able to make enterprise people, modelled on Private very handsome profits. I can understand the enterprise or strictly commercial lines, and chagrin of the Opposition when confronted already successful in the commercial sense, will with that reality because it means that so much become, as the pages of the history books turn, of the rhetoric of the Opposition, so much of among the most prized authorities or agencies the bell that the Opposition was able to ring in of this State. Already it is clear that within a the past- few short years, probably in as soon a time as anticipated even by the most optimistic sup- Point of Order porters of the two corporations, each will be Mr MacKINNON: Is it correct that the earning millions of dollars of profit by assisting Treasurer has unlimited time when we are ac- the private sector, by facilitating and tually on the concluding part of the item under expanding efforts to encourage enonomic debate? It is not general debate; the items are growth, by managing public assets and by gen- under debate. erally taking advantage of the opportunities The CHAIRMAN: Order! I refer the Deputy presented which Governments ignored in the Leader of the Opposition to page 61 of the past. Standing Orders which says -Ministers in I will tell members what happened in the charge, periods unspecified." past. In the past Liberal Governments were regarded as mulch cows. The Government was Committee Resumed fair game for anyone who wanted to saunter Mr BRIAN BURKE: it is quaint that before along with a bright idea and take advantage of I rose to speak I was denigrated for not having the fact that the Government had no commer- contributed to the debate and now when I want cial expertise or that under a Liberal Goverin- to speak members of the Opposition want to sit nient the public was not entitled to demand a me down. share of anything except a full share of taxes and charges. Mr Rushton interjected. That has changed. The Government is no Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member for Dale longer the mileb cow is in trouble because his mate's good story is which the previous Government allowed to feed off the public not in the first edition of the newspaper and the without any remittance of the misery of taxes second edition does not go to his electorate so and charges escalating out of control being they will think he is still sleeping. imposed on the public. Now, confronted by the Mr Rushton: That is how crude you are. spectre of a number of private enterprise Mr Clarko: It doesn't become you. people, successful business people who have Mr Old: It does become him. He is back to chosen to step out of their leading positions normal. within the private sector to assist in the Government's efforts to improve the lot of Mr BRIAN BURKE: It amazes me that people in this State, the Opposition is members of the Opposition think they can sqtuirming. I will give the Chamber an carry on denigrating other people yet when they example- are served up a bit of their own medicine it is somehow or other unholy. Mr MacKinnon: No, we are not. We are saying they should be accountable. Mr Rushton: Now slop being rude and crude. Mr BRIAN BURKE: As far as I am con- Mr BRIAN BURKE: Compare this with cerned, the member for Dale's contributions to what happened previously. Take the Perth Technical College site. The Valuer General the debate last evening warranted the sort of valued that site at around $16.5 million. What rebuke or reprimand that mildly has been delivered- did the previous Government do? It sold the sites at the value the Valuer General put on Mr Clarko: You have been talking in a them. smarmy fashion all week. You have been talking in a rude, oily and greasy fashion and it Mr MacKinnon: Which sites? does not become you. You don't need to do Mr Clarko: It didn't sell the Technical Col- that. lege site. 3986 3986[ASSEMBLY]

Mr Court: Hang on, what value did it put on Mr BRIAN BURKE: I have already told the the Technical College site? member four times; it was $20.5 million. Mr BRIAN BURKE: This Government Mr Court: So you got them $13 million book obtained the Valuer General's valuation and profit just like that. You could have put the site then obtained a commercial or private valu- to auction and got the $33 million. ation which was some $4 million higher. It Mr BRIAN BURKE: That shows the mem- charged the WADC the Valuer General's valu- ber's naivety; he does not even understand the ation plus $4 million extra, knowing the pre- commercial aspects involved. vious Government would have soldiered on Mr Court: You could put it on in the market- with the Valuer General's valuation; and do place and Sell it for $33 million. Instead you members know what happened then? With the have just told us you have put $13 million commercial expertise of the WADC the price profit into WADC. fetched for the Perth Technical College site was $33.5 million. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I have tried to tell the Opposition that the Valuer General valued the That is the sort of thing that can happen. Let site at $16.5 million, and a commercial valuer us look at the issue of the new bank that will be said the maximum the site was worth was established in Perth. We heard members op- $20.5 million. We said we wanted not the posite talk for years arrant nonsense about the Valuer General's price but the maximum com- establishment of Perth as a financial centre. mercial value. We said to the WADC, "You Most of them could not find their way to the have the skills and experience to maximise this Post Office, and it was up to the WADC to go value for us, and you can do that in a way the into the marketplace and assemble a joint ven- Government cannot." I am sure no-one would ture and successfully apply for an international expect that a traditional Government depart- banking licence conditional upon the licensee ment, and the Under Treasurer, with the assist- headquariering the new bank in Perth. That is ance of the Treasurer, who is myself, would be the first time it has ever happened. What did able to extract in the commercial marketplace we get from the Opposition? A lot of hot air the sort of price the WADC was able to get. about a financial centre as though it is some I have tried to say that as far as the WADC is sort of floating crap game that one can concerned there is once again this almost rhetorically superimpose on Perth. It took the traitorous paranoia the Opposition seems to WADC to roll up its sleeves and get out into feel about those people who choose to work the marketplace and grab the bank for Perth. with the Government of the day as members of Why is it that the Opposition is so critical of the WADC or WA Exim Corporation.' the WAOC? I will tell the Chamber. There are Let me underline-because I do not antici- droves of the Liberal Party's traditional sup- pate taking a great part in this debate-that porters who say, "We believe in the philos- this is an absolutely preposterous situation to ophy; we believe in making sure that the public provoke on the Loan Bill. If the Opposition is is rightfully represented and is protected", and dinkum, it should vote against this item in the the Opposition objects to the fact that those Legislative Council. If the Opposition members people should be so outrageous in their view as mean what they say and are not simply to want to assist in the WADC's activities. politicking, I point out they have the majority Let us look at the question of accountability. in the Legislative Council. If they mean all the It was the Opposition who insisted on inserting things they have said, and they have said some into the legislation that the WADC should awful things tonight, and if they are true and operate without any direction from Govern- members opposite believe them, they should ment. It was the Opposition who insisted the vote against this part of the Bill in the Legislat- WADC should be accountable through the ive Council and we will have an election. Companies Code. It was the Oppposition Division put and passed. which then rejected the regulations that would Division-Housing Authorities, $95 282 000 have made the WADC accountable to the -put and passed. Companies Code. So the Opposition insisted on the form of accountability and then rejected Division-Port Authorities, $420 000- the regulations which would have given- Several members interjected. Mr Court: You do not talk about WA The CHAIRMAN: Order! All members will Government Holdings; we know the dangers come to order. involved there. How much did WADC pay? Mr MacKinnon interjected. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 383987

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The Deputy tan area will be destroyed. The development of Leader of the Opposition has a tendency to the south-eastern corridor, with its regional continue to interject no matter what I say from centre at Armadale, will be jeopardised, so that this Chair. I give him a warning now that if he areas like Mundijong and Byford will not fulfil does it again I will take appropriate action the expectations they have at present. without further warning. It is not good enough that this Chamber is not receiving an explanation of the thrust of the Point of Order Urban Lands Council's programmes because Mr MacKINNON: Can I explain to you, Mr its proposed expenditure is increasing from Chairman, I was answering an interjection $2.2 million to $7.6 million in its internal de- from the Treasurer. velopment programme. That is a lot of land The CHAIRMAN: There is no point of or- and development, and it could put out of balance the private development of land. As far as der, and my warning persists. I am concerned, the Urban Lands Council has a part to play only when it is needed-when Comm ittee Resumned. there is a shortage of land and it has some Mr RUSHTON: I wish to comment on the mechanism to influence the price of land. How- item relating to the Fremantle Port Authority. I ever, through this agency the Government is am interested in an explanation of the pro- forcing up the price of land by as much as, I gramme being introduced at Fremantle. It is a understand, 20 per cent. most important port-our major port-and I would like an explanation of the increased ex- The home buyer under these circumstances penditure and the strategy relating to the works w ill be disadvantaged because of this compe- there. is the wharf being upgraded? What is the tition between those two Government agencies. thrust of the increased expenditure for the Some details of the Government's land devel- Fremantle Port Authority? The Port of opment programme should be explained because it Geraldton is receiving $2 million f.or a con- would appear that the Government is tainer crane and equipment. That is not a very selling off the farm while having no regard for large crane, but I would like an explanation the strategic reserves that have been held by regarding that item. Is the container crane be- Governments in past years. This Government ing built in Western Australia by one of our !s cashing in on this land and is obviously using local engineering firms? it politically. Division put and passed. Parliament has not even had an explanation of the Government's strategy relating to this Division-Post Secondary Education, very large development of urban land and the S$11338 000-put and passed. acquisition of rural land for the purpose of Division-Other Authorities, $1 573 000- turning it into urban land. I would just sound a Item: Urban Lands Council- warning because the land market is being put in jeopardy by an over-heating process caused by Mr RUSHTON: There are a couple of mat- this Government. The private sector will be ters for which I would like an answer to go onto jeopardised and eventually the normal forces of the record-the Urban Lands Council and the land development will dry up. Home owners development of land that is taking place at will suffer. For a short period there will be Canning Vale. Government intrusion into that area and it will The major item I want to address is the appear to be buoyant, but it will not be long Urban Lands Council's activity. I have before that is put out of balance and the public received information recently sector will not be able to cope with the costs, as that the Urban we have seen happen Lands Council and Ilomeswest have been com- in South Australia. Home peting for land within the wedges between the buyers will be forced into rentals and leasing, a corridors. It appears that there has been a situation which seems to be sought by this premature move by these organisaions-no Government. doubt directed by this Government-to ac- I would like some explanation of the Urban quire urban land in the wedges in anticipation Lands Council's strategy programme for this that the corridor plan will be removed. In this year, and I would like an explanation of the event these rural lands will be developed and very large increase in the cost of the pro- the whole planning concept reflecting our living gramme and how it will affect the private sec- standards and lifestyle in the Perth metropoli- tor in the coming year. 15p 3998 3988[ASSEMBLY)

Item: Rural Adjustment and Finance Corpor- Mr OLD: When did the Treasurer go to the ation- Swan Valley? Was it on 10 October? I do not Mr OLD: It is notable that listed under this care when the Budget came out, the announce- item is a loan of $500 000 to grape growers. ment was made prior to that by the Treasurer. I This is probably one of the most blatant politi- reiterate that this is a blatant political move cal moves that has been seen in this State for and there will be no applications because, for a some time inasmuch as the $500 000 which has start, as my friend, the member for Moore, been allocated to assist grape growers is would say "It is as useless as tits on a bull." restricted to the Swan Valley. This is omitted from the list. The CHAIRMAN: I am not sure whether that is parliamentary language. When the Treasurer went up to the Swan Valley with great pomp and ceremony to prop Mr OLD: I am quite sure that it is. Tits on a up the ailing chances of the local member in the cow are useful and therefore the same must next election, he had to pull something out of apply with a bull. the hat so he decided that he would make this I repeat that this is blatant political chican- money available to assist the grape growers of ery. I will be interested to see exactly how many that area. It was a very fine gesture and one of those loans are applied for. I have no doubt which was, according to the Treasurer, received that the member for Mundaring will tomorrow with great acclaim. However, I wonder what send some more letters out, as he has done will happen to grape growers in the Mt Barker already, requesting people in the Swan Valley area, the Margaret River district and on the to apply for some the loans Peel Estate. Are they entitled of to get the to have a cash Government out of trouble. special assistance made to them? Mr Davies: Are they in the same trouble as Division put and passed. the Swan Valley growers? Schedules I and 2 put and passed. Mr OLD: I do not know what sont of trouble the Swan Valley grape growers are in. Clauses 1 to 3 put and passed. Mr Evans: This money is for a specific pur- Title put and passed. pose: to upgrade the quality and capacity and the ability to develop an export grape industry. Report It involves assistance in water supply, planting, the provision of materials, for shortage and Bill reported, without amendment, and the post-harvest handling. That is the reason. report adopted. Mr OLD: I am delighted that we now know exactly what this $500 000 is for. Third Reading Mr Evans: A Press release was put out re- MR -BRIAN BURKE (Balga-Treasurer) cently. Why don't you keep up with your read- [11.42 p.m.]: I move- ing? That the Dill be now read a third time. Mr OLD: I hope the Minister for Agriculture is not getting stroppy. His colleague asked I thank the members for their contribution to whether the people I enumerated were in the General Loan Fund debate. While mem- trouble. bers may think that many of the matters raised Mr Davies: I would venture to say that they relate more properly to the Estimates debate on a re. the Consolidated Revenue Fund, Government Mr OLD: I asked a question: How many officers will check on all of the matters which loans will be applied for under this magnificent have been raised and will ensure that they are scheme for these people in great need in the dealt with and that members will be notified of Swan Valley? How many loans have been ap- the answers to the queries they have raised. proved and how many have been rejected? The I wish to raise a number of other points in answer is no-one is no-one is no-one. These conclusion, but in deference to the hour I will people who are supposedly in such great seek leave to continue my remarks at a later trouble, and to whom the member for day's sitting. Mundaring wrote and said, "Bill. hop in for your chop and get some money from this great Leave granted. scheme," could not be bothered to apply. Debate adjourned, on motion by Mr Davies Mr Parker: It has only been in the Parliament (Minister for Conservation and Land Manage- since the Budget-]l0 October. ment). [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 3989

BILLS (6): RETURNED Bills returned from the Council without 1. Collie Coal (Western Collieries) Agree- amendment. mnent Amendment Bill. 5. Financial Administration and Audit 2. Coal Mine Workers (Pensions) Amend- Bill. ment Bill. 6. Acts Amendment (Financial Adminis- 3. Superannuation and Family Benefits tration and Audit) Bill. Amendment Bill. Bills returned from the Council with 4. Acts Amendment (Educational Insti- amendments. tutions Superannuation) Bill. House adjourned at 11.47 p.m. 3990 3990ASSEMBLY]

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE Mr HODGE replied: (1) The number of Public Service Act staff employed in the Health Depart- 1358. Postponed. menti at 30 June 1985 was 2 130.47 in full-time equivalent terms. (2) The Health Department was not es- ABATTOIRS tablished until I July 1984. The com- WA Meat Marketing Corporation: Financial posite figures for the former Depart- Survey ments of Hospital and Allied Services, Mental Health Services, and Public 1411. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for Health were- Agriculture: (a) 2 114.80Oat30OJune 1984; (1) With regard to the proposed Western Australian Meat Marketing Corpor- (b) 2 058.65 at 30 June 1983. ation, why has no financial survey been undertaken of the alleged ben- 1490. Postponed. efits from the proposed corporation? (2) If there has been no financial survey, TOURISM COMMISSION on what basis has it been assumed by the Government's advisers that there Administrative Officers will be operational efficiences which 1494. Mr STEPHENS, to the Minister will benefit producers? representing the Minister for Tourism: (3) Will he please quantify his statement (1) In the year 1984-85 how many differ- in the second reading speech regarding ent people were employed in the the financial benefits to producers? positions of chairman and managing director? Mr EVANS replied: (2) In each case- (1) to (3) There are currently two Government meat marketing organis- (a) what was the period of employ- ations in Western Australia operating ment; on the domestic and export market. It (b) salary paid; is obvious that efficiencies can be achieved by amalgamating these or- (c) travelling expenses; ganisat ions. (d) were consultancy fees also paid I refer the member to the conclusions and if so what amount? of the recent inquiry into Government (3) What is the reason for the projected involvement in the meat industry, sec- 50 per cent reduction in the chair- tion 3.8. man's salary for 1985-86? (4) (a) What was the total number of em- GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES ployees employed by the commission in 1984-85; Health Departmient (b) of the total number how many 1421. Mr BRADSHAW, to the Minister for worked for the full period of 12 Health: months? (1) How many people are currently (5) (a) Does the commission plan to es- employed by the Health Department tablish an information centre at other than statutory boards and Norseman or at some other place authorities? on the Eyre Highway; (2) How many people were employed by (b) if "Yes", what is the estimated the Health Department as in (1) in- cost of establishing the centre; (a) 1982-83; and (c) what is the estimated cost to run the establishment on an annual (b) 1983-84? basis? [Thursday, 7 November 1985]199 3991

(6) What are the estimated expenses of (4) Will he authorise funds to have the the America's Cup unit for the follow- compensating basin recontoured and ing for 1985-86 against the actual for partially sealed to enable water to be 1984-85- held throughout the year and to en- (a) air travel; courage birdlife to return to the area? (b) accommodation expenses; Mr TQNKIN replied: (c) entertainment expenses; (1) Yes. (d) motor vehicle expenses? (2) The ultimate holding capacity is approximately 14 000 cubic metres. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (1) One chairman, one acting chairman, (3) The Water Authority is not directly and one managing aware of local residents' current director. wishes but discussions have been held (2) Chairnian Actiigchairman Managingdircc recently with the City of Stirling (a) 11714-813I85 1 2/3/85-3a/6/85 Itl/8S-3016/85 which is keen to investigate the two (b) 15483 $ 186 S28 060 possible alternatives of deepening this (0) $4685 1699 13056 basin to make a permanent lake, or (d) Nil S7989 Nil recontouring the basin in order that it could be used as dry grassed parkiand (3) The position is being filled on an act- for much of the year. A proposal is ing basis. awaited from the City of Stirling. (4) (a) 237; (4) Not applicable at present. (b) 124. (5) (a) Yes; 1523. Postponed. (b) $300 000; (c) Yet to be determined. GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS (6) As this information is not readily Incinerators: Comnpla ints available and will require considerable research, the member will be advised 1525. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for in writing in due course. Works: (1) Has he received complaints from Miss 1497, 1505, 1514, and 1516. Postponed. G. Dodd regarding the condition of public buildings' incinerators? DRAINAGE (2) If "Yes", what has he done to satisfy the claims by Miss Dodd? Compensating Basin: Ron Stone Reserve Mr McI VER replied: 1519. Mr CASH, to the Minister for Water Resources: (1) and (2) Over a period of time I have received several letters from Miss G. (1) Is the Ron Stone reserve which is situ- E., M. Dodd of the Kernerator-Dole ated on the corner of Bradford, incinerator Co. I believe many of my Learoyd, and Ferrar Streets, Mt parliamentary colleagues have also Lawley, used as a compensating basin been recipients of correspondence by the Western Australian Water from Miss Dodd. Authority? In an attempt to assist Miss Dodd I (2) If "Yes", what is the holding capaci ty arranged earlier this year for one of required for this compensating basin? the senior officers of the Building (3) Is he aware residents living in the Management Authority to interview vicinity of the compensating basin are her. As a consequence of this inter- keen to have pant of the bottom of the view I wrote to Miss Dodd on 23 April lake sealed to enable water to be 1985, and I have forwarded a copy of retained throughout the year in the this reply under separate cover to the lake area? member for his information. 3992 3992[ASSEMBLY)

MINERALS: GOLD Mr HODGE replied: Aron way Mining Ply' Lid: Potential (1) and (2) The number of patients and waiting times for elective surgery vary 1526. Dr DADOUR, to the Minister for vastly Minerals and Energy: with respect to the different procedures and, to a lesser extent, the (1) In relation to the Armway goidmining particular hospital. The asssessment project in Hamersicy Range National would also need to take account of the Park, has the company completed ex- fact that patients who are considered ploration to define the potential of the clinically time-critical would also be goldmining prospect? included in such figures; these patients (2) If so, when? could not be considered elective. Waiting lists are regularly reviewed by (3) What are the results of the exploration clinicians and patients' positions on and assessment programme? these lists are altered depending on (4) When did the results become known? their clinical priority. A meaningful response cannot be given to the ques- Mr PARKER replied: tion in its present form, given the (I) to (4) No. In fact, exploration has not number of variables. yet commenced. The proposal is still Some time ago I asked the Health De- being considered. partment, in conjunction with the major teaching hospitals, to review the LAND RELEASE: current reporting methods for waiting times and waiting lists, with the Warren Electorate objective of establishing a -common 1527. Dr DADOUR, to the Minister for system across all hospitals to allow Agriculture: meaningful information to be reported on a routine basis. In relation to blocks proposed to be released for agriculture in the Warren The variables affecting overall waiting electorate, are any of the blocks lists are referred to in answer to ques- located in the middle of State forest? tion 1027. The member is also referred to question 1406 for further Mr EVANS replied: amplification of this issue. Of the six areas being assessed for suit- ability for agricultural release in the GOVERNMENT CORPORATIONS Shire of Manjimup, four are in State forest. Three of these areas adjoin Staff Overseas Trips existing farmland and one is sur- I1529. Mr WILLIAMS, to the Premier: rounded by State forest. (1) Regarding the Western Australian De- velopment Corporation and Exim HEALTH: HOSPITALS Corporation, how many overseas trips have been undertaken by the staff or Elective Surgery: Waiting Timtes advisers of these corporations in the 1528. Mr HASSELL, to the Minister for last 12 months? Health: (2) How many interstate trips have been (1) What are the waiting times for elective undertaken by the staff or advisers of surgery at- these corporations in the last 12 months? (a) Royal Perth Hospital; (3) How many staff or advisers were (b) Queen Elizabeth 11 Medical involved in these trips? Centre? (4) What countries and States were (2) What number of people are waiting involved in these trips? for elective surgery at- (5) How many trips were made to each of (a) Royal Perth Hospital; these countries or States? (b) Queen Elizabeth 11 Medical (6) What costs were involved in these Centre? overseas trips, i.e.- [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 3993

(a) air fares; change which would otherwise re- (b) daily allowances; suit from the change to gross rental values. (c) other expenses? (3) In the event that any local government (7) What costs were involved in these in- rates were found to be defective, con- terstate trips, te.- sideration would be given to the ap- (a) fares; propriate means to remedy that situ- (b) daily allowances; ation. (c) other expenses? 1531. Postponed. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (1) to (7) The business activities of WAUC are the commercial preroga- AM ERICA'S CUP FESTIVAL OF SPORT tive of that corporation. Goivernmnent Comnmiment 1532. Mr MacKINNON, to the Premier: LOCAL GOVERNMENT: ALBANY TOWN (1) Is he aware that on 28 August 1985, in COUNCIL answer to question 302, when he was Rating: Valuations asked whether the Government had given any commitment to the 1530. Mr STEPHENS, to the Minister for America's Cup Festival of Sport he Local Government: answered, "None"? (1) Is he aware that 1978 UV valuations (2) Is he aware of the report in the Daily" were used by the Albany Town Coun- News of 5 November which states: cil for year 1985-86 rating assessments "Former Liberal Premier Ray in lieu of 1985 UV valuations as O'Connor today denied his Govern- substantially completed and sub- ment contract to organise sporting sequently gazetted by the Valuer Gen- events during the America's Cup eral? period was in jeopardy"? (2) If "Yes", does he accept that- (3) Is such a contract in existence? (a) this is inorder; (4) If so, is it under review? (b) such action is to the financial dis- (5) Why is it under review? advantage of the ratepayers? (6) Why did he indicate in August that the (3) Does he intend to have enacted retro- Government had no commitment to spective legislation to correct any the America's Cup Festival of Sport? breach that may have occurred? M r BRIAN BURKE replied: Mr CARR replied: (1) This question was directed to the Min- (1) I am informed that the council used ister representing the Minister for 1979 unimproved values for the pur- Tourism and answered by him. The pose of phasing-in the change to the Minister advised there was no com- gross rental value system of valuation. mitment. (2) (a) This is in keeping with the (2) Yes. intended principle of the phasing- (3) An arrangement with Ray O'Connor in rating option that rates are Consultancy is being negotiated. assessed using both the previously used unimproved values and the (4) to (6) See (3). new gross rental values in the first two years of the change in valu- ARGENTINE ANTS ation system; Control Programmen (b) any change in valuation system can be expected to change the 1533. Mr OLD, to the Minister for relativities in rate burden be- Agriculture: tween ratepayers. The purpose of (1) What aggregate area is programmed this particular rating option is to for Argentine ant control treatment in lessen the impact of that relativity the current financial year? 3994 3994[ASSEMBLY)

(2) What individual areas are to be Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: treated and what is the approximate size of each area? The balance of $1 667 792 represents one-half share of the R & I homes and (3) What aggregate area was treated dur- land profits for the year ended 31 ing the past financial year? March 1985. Mr EVANS replied: (1) 60 hectares. TOURISM (2) Burswood Island Casino site, 50 hec- Accredited Agents System: Discontinuance tares; 1537. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister Wannerco Shire. 10 hectares. representing the Minister for Tourism:

(3) 353.4 hectares. (1) When was the accredited agents system discontinued by the Western Australian Tourism Commission? 1534. Postponed. (2) At that time, how many travel agents were accredited with the commission? GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS: PERTH TECHNICAL COLLEGE SITE Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Sale: Income (1) The accredited agents system, as such, 1535. Mr MacKINNON, to the Treasurer: lapsed when the Tourism Commission was the then Department of Tourism. (1) Has the income to the Government However, the Tourism Commission from the sale of the Perth Technical continued to pay full commissions to College site referred to in question agents booking with the Holiday WA 1483 of 5 November 1985 been in- Centres, in a manner similar to the cluded in the Consolidated Revenue accredited agents system. This pro- Fund Budget Estimates for the year cedure officially ceased on I August ending 30 June 1986? 1985. Operators and agents alike were advised accordingly. (2) If so, where has it been included? (2) From the time at which the accredited Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: agents system commenced in June 1972, in excess of 2 200 agents (1) No. throughout Australia booked with the Holiday WA Centres. (2) Not applicable.

TOURISM COMMISSION FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS Coinmissioners: Appointmnents Rural and Industries Bank: Profits 1536. Mr MacKINNON, to the Premier: 1538. Mr MacKINNON, to the Minister representing the Minister for Tourism: Referring to questions 1121 and 1487 of 1985, will he explain where the bal- (1) Who are the current commissioners of ance of the profit returned in the the Western Australian Tourism Com- 1984-85 year by the Rural and Indus- mission? tries Bank was earned from-that is, other than the $10 006 588 returned (2) What are the terms of their appoint- fromi purely banking operations? ment? [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 399539

Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Mr WILSON replied: (1) (2) Any such letters would be drafted according to the circumstances that per- Basil Atkinson 4 years tain. Bill Gil 4 years Warren Tucker 3 years GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS: PERTH Stephen Hales 2 years TECHNICAL COLLEGE SITE John Osborn 2 years 4 months Development: Parliamentary Secretaryv of the Cabinet 1543. Mr PETER JONES, to the Premier: 1539 and 1540. Postponed. (1) Is it a fact that the Parliamentary Sec- retary of the Cabinet had discussions with at least one of the persons GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS interested in the development of the Electrical Services: Esperance High School Perth Technical College site, prior to 1541. Mr MENSAROS, to the Premier: the final decision being made? (1) Has he received an inquiry from (2) In such discussions, was the member Esperance Electrical Service in regard for Perth acting on behalf of the to a tender awarded for electrical ser- Premier or the Government, or on his vices in the upgrading and additions own behalf? of the Esperance Senior High School? (3) If he is not aware of any discussions, will he take the necessary action to (2) Would he please give information become aware of the details? about the Government's policy regarding requiring and taking into con- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: sideration the employment of appren- (I) to (3) 1 am informed that the Parlia- tices by tenderers as applying to this mentary Secretary of the Cabinet was contract? approached on this matter, but he ad- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: vised that he had no involvement in the project, and took no further (1) Yes. action. (2) 1 am informed by the Minister for Works that the apprentice require- SIR LENOX HEWITT ment for this particular electrical contract was specified as two. However, Relationship: Mr Kia/id R. AlI Zayani the lowest tender received was from 1544. Mr PETER JONES, to the Premier: an Esperance contractor which, under (1) With regard to the reply given to ques- the existing policy, exempted it from tion 1436 of 1985, does this mean that the apprentice requirement. Therefore he will continue to keep secret the re- as the lowest tender received was con- lationship between Sir Lenox Hewitt, sidered to be a conforming tender, it Mr Al Zayani, and the Western was accepted accordingly. Australian Government,. about which he expressed concern on 10 May 1985? HOUSING: 1-OMESWEST (2) If so, in view of his then expressed Repairs Contract: Letter concern, and as Sir Lenox Hewitt is in receipt of public funds as a consultant 1542. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for and adviser to the Government, for Housing: what reason is he refusing to clarify is the Homeswest letter determining his relationship with Sir Lenox repair contracts with contractors and Hewitt? containing the passage ". .. charges Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: have been raised for work that has not been done. , a standard letter form (1) I did not express concern about the or an individually drafted letter com- matter. mensurate with the individual case? (2) Not applicable. 3996 3996[ASSEMBLY)

SIR LENOX HEWITT (4) When is it anticipated that a decision In vestment Opportunities:Development regarding the development will be made? 1545. Mr PETER JONES, to the Premier: Mr PARKER replied: (1) Adverting to the reply given to ques- lion 99 on 21 August 1985, what in- (1) Broad ranging studies are currently vestment opportunities has Sir Lenox being undertaken on the feasibility of Hewitt ever developed for Western exploiting the phosphate deposits at Australia? Mt Weld. This includes the applica- (2) What reports has Sir Lenox Hewitt bility of modern technological ad- ever made to the Government regard- vances to the concentration of the ore ing his activities as a consultant and and the production of superphosphate for which he is receiving public and phosphoric acid. The study also funding? includes product transportation options and marketing considerations. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: (2) CSBP & Farmers, in conjunction with (1) and (2) For details of activities and the joint owners of the deposit, Union duties of Sir Lenox Hewitt, see reply Oil Development Corporation and to question 2738 of 20 March 1985. BlHP Minerals Ltd. Some tesiwork has been assigned to the State Govern- SIR LENOX HEW Il ment Chemical Laboratories, CSlRO, Emnployment: Consultant and AM DEL. 1546. Mr PETER JONES, to the Premier: (3) No. (1) When is the Government intending to (4) A minimum of four years further review, or cancel, its employment of study are required. Sir Lenox Hewitt as a consultant and adviser? 1550. Postponed. (2) If no consideration is being given to such an action, for what reason and QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE benefit is the Government continuing to retain his services? RAY O'CONNOR CONSULTANCY PTY Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: LTD (1) See reply to question 3385 of I May Con tract 1985 and question 98 of 21 August 420. Mr MacKIN NON, to the Premier: 1985. I refer him to question 1532 of today's (2) See reply to question 2738 of 20 date, which refers to the reported con- March 1985. tract between the Government and Ray O'Connor Consultancy Ply Ltd 1547 and 1548. Postponed. and ask if it is correct, as the answer implies, that there is no such agreement or contract? MINERALS: PHOSPHATE Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Mt Weld: Feasibility St tdies I should start by saying that the mem- 1549. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for ber was quite wrong in saying that he Minerals and Energy: had asked me a question. Initially I (1) With regard to the phosphate deposits did not recall this matter because the at Mt Weld, what feasibility studies question was asked of me as the Min- are currently being undertaken regard- ister representing the Minister for ing the possibility of developing this Tourism, and I provided the infor- deposit? mation on that basis. I think that is (2) By whom are the studies being done? correct, is it not? (3) Has the Government discussed the Mr MacKinnon: Yes. possible need to develop the deposits Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is one of the earlier than originally thought? reasons why. [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 393997

Mr Bradshaw: It is a little bit pedantic. emn Australia fell from 7.4 per cent in Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is one of the September to 6.9 per cent this month. reasons why I did not remember the This compares with 8.5 per cent in details of the matter. October 1983. When the Liberal Party left office in 1983 it was 10. 5 per cent. I understand an answer was given to the question on notice today. I am still The Opposition is so desperate that not fully familiar with the matter and the member for Greenough is trying to if the member puts the question on the find a job for his wife in an unusual Notice Paper he will get a detailed manner. I saw the headline answer. tonight-Tubby's hubby". It is absurd. I know we all acknowledge the EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING importance of the family unit, but do Unemploymnent Statistics we have to have them all in here? 421. Mr BURKETT, to the Premier: Western Australia's unemployment (1) Has the Premier seen the latest unem- rate is the second lowest among the ployment figures released by the States, and is much lower than the Australian Bureau of Statistics this national rate of 7.3 per cent. The num- morning? ber of people unemployed decreased (2) If so, how does Western Australia by 3 500 over the month and now compare with the rest of Australia? stands at 47 100 compared with 55 300 at the same time last year. That Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: is a fall of 14.8 per cent. There are (1) and (2) Yes,!I have seen those figures. now 632 000 Western Australians Mr Old: How unusual. employed, a rise of 34 800 over the Mr Thompson: I just yawned. year representing a 5.8 per cent annual growth rate in employment. There are Mr BRIAN BURKE: There appears to me now about 63 000 more people in to be a malaise that has wafted across work than in February 1983. I do not the Opposition, I would agree, and expect the Opposition is going to jump whether that is reflected in the yawns up and congratulate us, but a sort of of the member for Kalamunda, I do corridor concession would be suf- not know. ficient-a gentle acknowledgement. Mr Thompson: It is the ridiculous hours you are making us work. Mr MacKinnon: Will you give the same Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member for acknowledgement on interest rates? Dale has found the solution. Mr BRIAN BURKE: We do not mind the Several members interjected. barbs on interest rates. If we cannot Mr BRIAN BURKE: Why do members all demonstrate our performance in re- shout at me so much? There are other spect of interest rates, the Opposition people in this place who would ask may insult and abuse us. But why do it questions of members when they are on the question of employment? not here. I know members in this place who deliberately look for the ab- Mr Bradshaw: .Don't you think high sence of a Minister, for example, to interest rates will create more unem- say things, but I did not. I waited until ployment in the long term? the member for Dale was here. I directed questions to the member for Mr BRIAN BURKE: They may do. There Dale when he was here and I might may be serious problems associated say that I got a more sensible answer with the weakening dollar and increas- from him than I do when he is awake. ing interest rates. Several members interjected. I am talking about unemployment. If Mr BRIAN BURKE: Yes, I have seen the members opposite walk past me or figures, and I am sure they will delight one of the Ministers on the way to the the Opposition as they delight us, be- dining room they might say, "Good cause the unemployment rate in West- job on employment." 3998 3998[ASSEMBLY]

RAY O'CONNOR CONSULTANCY PTY sume he means that he thinks there is LTD a contract and that that answer is Contract wrong. I do not know the answer. 422. Mr MacKINNON, to the Premier: Mr MacKinnon: That is why I put the question on the Notice Paper, as you I refer to the answer he gave Pre- viously in which he indicated he advised on Tuesday. would answer the question of whether Mr BRIAN BURKE: I will answer the there is a contract with Ray O'Connor question because the Deputy Leader Consultancy if I put it on the Notice of the Opposition does not appear to Paper. Is he aware the question I re- understand that I do not know the ferred to this evening asked, "Is there answer and that is why!I am not giving such a contract in existence?" Is the the answer. The question is, "Is there Premier aware that the answer he or is there not a contract with Ray provided, not representing any other O'Connor Consultancy?" Minister, was that an arrangement Mr MacKinnon: That is what question with Ray O'Connor Consultancy was 1532 of today's date says. being negotiated? I repeat: Is there a contract with Ray O'Connor Mr BRIAN BURKE: Let me repeat it: "Is Consultancy or not, and if he is not there or is there not a contract with prepared to indicate that to the Parlia- Ray O'Connor Consultancy?" Is that ment, why not? the question? Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: Mr MacKinnon: That is correct. I tried to point out to the Deputy Mr BRIAN BURKE: The answer is "yes". Leader of the Opposition that while I was aware of the reply that an arrange- BUILDING INDUSTRY ment is being negotiated, I do not know whether there is a contract. I Employment. Report would presume that an arrangement 423. Mr TROY, to the Minister for Housing: being negotiated- I preface my question by saying, Mr MacKinnon: You said if I put it on the "Good job on housing". Notice Paper-and I did-you would Has the Minister sighted the recent re- answer it, and you have not. views in the Master Builders Associ- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I gave the Deputy ation's annual report on the Western Leader of the Opposition an answer Australian building industry? Can he which said that an arrangement was summarise the substantive issues being negotiated. contained in the report and how they Mr MacKinnon: Is there a contract or not? will affect employment in the building Mr BRIAN BURKE: That is-the question industry? the member is asking in the light of Mr WILSON replied: my answer this evening. Yes, I have certainly had made avail- Mr MacKinnon: The question said, "Is able to me the reviews put out by the there such a contract in existence?" It Master Builders Association and they is a simple question, yes or no? augur well for the Western Australian Mr BRIAN BURKE: Ilam not saying it is a building industry in 1986. The Master difficult question. It may be for the Builders Association predicts the Deputy Leader of the Opposition to building industry will consolidate its say I am surprisingly dull, but what I current construction boom. The boom am saying is I do not know whether has made Perth the fastest growing there is a contract. In answer to the city-in terms of building activity-in question he asked, I said an arrange- Australia. ment was being negotiated. The ques- For example, 1985 saw a record for tion he then asked me may well have commercial developments, with con- been, "Is there a contract?" The tracts valued at $830 million under answer I have supplied, as provided to way. The report anticipates next year's me, is the one hd has received. I pre- approvals will be in the same vicinity. (Thursday, 7 November 1985] 399939

Housing approvals continue to remain America's Cup Festival of Sport if at a satisfactory level and it is there is a contract which presumably predicted that a total of 16 000 houses has caused money to be given?" will be approved in this financial year. Mr MacKinnon. I am saying if it is not for The implications for employment the festival of Span, what is it for? born of this increasing activity are Mr BRIAN BURKE: The member started enormous. Construction is a labour- his question by saying, "If there is a intensive industry. Already it has seen contract." employment growth of 9.6 per cent for Mr MacKinnon: So my English is wrong; I this quarter. Consequently the unem- am not perfect. ployment rate for the sectorial workforce is dawn almost two per cent Mr BRIAN BURKE: It is not the mem- from last year. The obvious con- ber's English that is wrong. clusion is that employment Mr MacKinnon: You said in answer to the opportunities will strengthen in 1986. previous question, "There is a contract." This conclusion is reinforced by the arguments of the MBA which point to Mr BRIAN BURKE: No, I did not. America's Cup activity and the revival Mr MacKinnon: I asked four members of the private sector in WA as the here and we all thought you said yes. major contributors to recent growth. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Did the member far Our policies to encourage the private Narrogin think that? sector-like payroll tax, and land tax Mr Peter Jones: You are answering the and water charges concessions-will question. help to sustain private sector spend- America's Cup ac- Mr BRIAN BURKE: I will tell members ing, and of course opposite again. I said the question is, tivity will carry on through 1986. "Is there or is there not a contract with Ray O'Connor Consultancy?" RAY O'CONNOR CONSULTANCY PTY The Deputy Leader of the Opposition LTD said, "Yes, that is my question." My answer to that is "Yes". There is or Contract there is not one. I have tried to tell the 424. Mr MacKINNON, to the Premier: Deputy Leader of the Opposition 10 times before that I do not know. Bearing in mind the Premier's most Mr MacKinnon: How many times do I recent answer to my question, if there have to put it on the Notice Paper is in existence a contract with Ray before you answer the question? O'Connor Consultancy, why did he as Minister representing the Minister for Mr BRIAN BURKE: The Deputy Leader Tourism, tell me in this House on 28 of the Opposition should not get angry August, in answer to the question with me. I am trying to take him about what commitment the Govern- along- ment had given to the America's Cup Mr MacKinnon: You said, "Put it on the Festival of Sport, that the answer was Notice Paper" on Tuesday and I did, none? If that is the case, for what then and you'will hot give me an answer. is the contract with Ray O'Connor Mr BRIAN BURKE: In the absence of the Consultancy if it is not in relation to Leader of the Opposition I am trying the arrangements affecting the to take the Deputy Leader of the Op- America's Cup Festival of Sport? position along. I have told him in Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: answer to the first question that I do not know the answer. This is an absurdity. The member began his question by saying, "If there is Mr MacKinnon: What is the point of a contract", and then continued to de- putting questions on the Notice velop an argument which concluded Paper? by asking, "Why did you say you had Mr BRIAN BURKE: It gives Ministers a not given money relating to the chance to answer them. 4000 4000[ASSEMBLY]

Mr MacKinnon: We put them on the No- I would like to give this House, the lice Paper and you cannot answer public, and all the employees of the them. Royal Perth Hospital an assurance Mr BRIAN BURKE: Opposition members that this Government is committed to want the Government to answer their proceeding with the north block and questions in their terms. ensuring that it continues without further interruption until it is Mr MacKinnon: You had a Press confer- completed and fully operational. ence announcing all the Government's arrangements with O'Connor. The project was started 10 years ago and, as we are all aware, the building Mr BRIAN BURKE: This is taking too of it stalled for many years under the long. previous Liberal Administration. It The Deputy Leader of the Oppo- now seems that, in the unlikely event sition's question said, "If there is a that the Liberal Party became the contract" because he misunderstood Government again, the project would the answer to the previous question. It be in some danger of being delayed makes a nonsense of the second part again. of his question. Mr MacKinnon: Who said that? Mr MacKinnon: It makes the question Mr HODGE: It was the Opposition's wrong. spokesman on health. I will read what Mr BRIAN BURKE: It makes it wrong he said to this House- and I cannot answer it. I question the wisdom of starting Mr MacKinnon: You are not game to it in the first place and of continu- answer it. ing it. I accept that the facilities there are less than perfect and HEALTH: HOSPITAL that something needs to be done to redress that. Royval Perth: North Block But building a brand new block 425. Mr BERTRAM, to the Minister for will not overcome the problems Health: that prevail with respect to the Given the Opposition's recent criti- old building. cism of this Government's decision to Further on he said- recommence work on the long-stalled RPH north block, can the Minister re- .. private hospitals are battling affirm the Government's commitment to keep their numbers up. to this project's completion without I want to make it clear to the House interruption? that there will be no additional beds in Mr HODGE replied: the north block-certainly there will be new beds but they will replace the I was certainly amazed to hear the Op- old beds, some of which are on the position spokesman for health, the enclosed verandahs of the Royal Perth member for Kalamunda, say in this Hospital. The north block will not House the other day that he did not have any effect on the viability of pri- think the Government should have vate hospitals. However, what it will recommenced work on the north do is make the hospital more efficient block. In fact, he criticised the and effective, and will provide a Government for going ahead with it greater standard of service for mem- and he also questioned the concept of bers of the public. building the north block in the first place. The old facilities in RPH were designed decades ago and are not up His attitude was that in some way the to coping with modern technology and building of the north block would procedures which are required these make life difficult for private hospital days. The north block will relieve the operators. pressure on the very cramped con- I guess he assumes there will be extra ditions in the existing hospital. There beds in the new north block building. will be a better layout and this will [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 400100

result in more efficient work premises. (2) If he will not specify the site now, As an example the recovery ward in when will he do so? the intensive care unit will be closer to (3) An amount of $700 000 has been the operating theatres in the new allocated in the General Loan Fund to north block. There will be better purchase a new site, even though suit- lighting in the building generally be- able land already exists at Canning cause planning has been such as to Vale. Why is a new site being pur- take advantage of natural light rather chased for the proposed prison? than relying on artificial light. Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: I will run through some of the new facilities which will be included in the (1) to (3) If the member puts the question north block, on the Notice Paper he will get a con- which now appears to be sidered under threat by the Liberal Party. The answer. new facilities will include- New X-ray laboratory EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING New outpatient clinics Unemployment: Older People 427. Mrs HENDERSON, to the Premier: New paramedical services Could the Premier please outline the Very sophisticated new diagnostic initiatives the Government is taking laboratories to assist the older unemployed? New biomedical engineering Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: New central sterilising unit The Government- Large recovery unit Several members interjected. New operating theatres with new Mr BRIAN BURKE: I simply do not know ICUs nearby the answer to the question asked by Two floors of new wards. the member for Karrinyup. It was a little specialised. I did not know the The new wards will replace the old answer so I asked that it be put on the substandard wards, some of which are Notice Paper. on enclosed verandahs and were built before the turn of the century. We are Mr Clarko: It is in the Budget and that is talking about making the RPH a more why I asked you. efficient place for patients to have Mr BRIAN BURKE: I know that it is in highly sophisticated surgery. the Budget and I know one or two It amazed me to hear the Opposition things about it, but I do not know spokesman cast some doubt over enough about it to answer the mem- whether this project will go ahead ber's question. under a Liberal Government. I reiter- Mr Clarko: A large amount of money has ate that the Burke Government is been allocated to the project and I strongly committed to ensuring that thought you would know something the project goes ahead without further about it. interruption and that there will be no Mr BRIAN BURKE: I do not know five-year stalling periods under this enough to answer the question sen- Government. The people of Western sibly. I will now answer the question Australia can be assured that the raised by the member for Gosnells. Government will keep the project go- The Government, through the Depart- ing at full speed until it is completed. ment of Employment and Training, has undertaken a number of initiat- PRISON ives directly aimed at assisting older Maximum Security: Site unemployed people. The following is a summary of some of the major initiat- 426. Mr CLARKO. to the Premier- ives- ()Would he inform the House where the Job link: Three major community proposed new gaol that is to replace projects have been funded which the Fremantle Prison is to be located? will deal exclusively with the 4002 4002ASSEMBLY]

older unemployed and at least a ever-in view of the Government's dozen other job link projects re- stated opposition to the system which late to the older as well as the we strongly support? younger unemployed. Mr PARKER replied: Job placement and training: The The Minister for Resources and En- Government has agreed to extend ergy in the Federal Government, in 1986 the job placement and Senator Evans, has, as the member training programme initiated implied, reintroduced to the Senate under the Skills West '85 pro- cash bonus bidding legislation. I stress gramme. that the arrangement between the Because of the Government's Commonwealth and the State is not concern for the older unem- formalised yet, as it was in relation to ployed, the job placement and the earlier legislation that was before training programme will be de- the Senate. My understanding is that voted exclusively to the adult un- the Minister for Resources and Energy employed in 1986. An allocation is prepared to make available to us of approximately $2 million has and to the other States the arrange- been made in the 1985-86 Budget ment that was negotiated between him for this programme. and me in respect of this matter And there is $1.5 million for the con- earlier this year, namely, that there tinuation of job bank to which I re- would not be an application of the ferred previously. cash bonus bidding legislation to Western Australia or adjacent waters There is also the new enterprise pro- for at least two years, during which gramme. A requirement of this programme is that applicants be over the time both parties would evaluate the operation of the legislation. At the age of 18 years, and on the experience to date it is expected that the majority conclusion of -that two-year period will be between the ages of 25 and 45. there would not be an automatic introduction of the legislation into Western The community employment pro- Australia. Rather, we would have the gramme will continue, and other pro- opportunity of saying what we felt grammes include 17 community- about it and of examining it. We could based employment programmes see whether it had attributes that operating in Western Australia that Senator Evans and some sections of are funded and supported by the De- the oil industry believe that it has. We partment of Employment and Train- could then decide whether to intro- ing's community employment initiat- duce it in Western Australia. ives unit. Mr Peter Jones: But you said you didn't I am sure that members will appreci- like it. ate from this brief description that the State is making significant attempts to Mr PARKER: So far as Western address the problems of the older un- Australian adjacent waters are con- employed. cerned, it will not apply now or in two years' time according to the arrangement I made on the last occasion with PETROLEUM EXPLORATION Senator Evans. It will not apply until Cash Bonus Bidding: Action such time as we have evaluated its application in the Commonwealth- 428. Mr PETER JONES, to the Minister for administered territories. That means Minerals and Energy: that the Commonwealth will not be in relation to the cash bonus bidding able to introduce it into Western legislation that has been re-introduced Australia without our agreement. to the Federal Parliament, what action is the Minister proposing to take to Mr Peter Jones: Senator Evans has been ensure that the legislation, if passed, told that industry disputes that. will not apply in Western Australian Mr PARKER: As I understand the waters-not just in two years' time or position, the only area of disagree- in the foreseeable future, but for ment about which there has been [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 400340

some publicity is that in relation to consulted. We believe that Western signature bonuses. Senator Evans has Australians should determine our elec- told the industry that he does not be- toral laws, but Western Australians lieve signature bonuses would defi- are not only those 18 Liberal members nitely be deferred in relation to West- of the Legislative Council. emn Australia. That is a difference in Thus the Government calls on the Op- interpretation. But I do not think position to give practical effect to the there is any difference in interpretation principle that the Leader of the Oppo- between what Senator Evans has told sition espouses by allowing Western industry and what I have told industry Australians to determine their own about this particular matter, which is electoral laws at a referendum. They as I have stated. have never been given the opportunity to do so in the past because the Lib- ELECTORAL LAWS eral Party has always used its perma- Referendum nent majority in the Legislative Coun- cil to block measures that would have 429. Mr GORDON HILL, to the Minister for led to a referendum. Parliamentary and Electoral Reform: I believe it is preferable that Will the Government support a reform be achieved through the State Parlia- proposition to hold a referendum on ment. If the Leader of the Opposition electoral laws in WA in conj unction also with next year's State election? genuinely believes that, instead of being interested in preserving his Mr TONKIN replied: party's permanent political power If the Leader of the Opposition is through the Council, he will have no genuine in his desire to ensure that hesitation in agreeing to this proposal. control of the State's laws remains in If he will not agree, it suggests that his local hands, rather than having it de- comments of the last two days are termined through the Proposed Bill of nothing more than a smokescreen Rights, he will join the State Govern- designed to conceal concern about a ment in moves to facilitate a refer- threat to his party's power. endum. I make that offer to the Opposition on The Government is prepared to keep behalf of the Government. We are the Parliament sitting to enable the happy to sit here and re-introduce reintroduction Of its fair represen- reform legislation to this Parliament tation Bill, provided the Opposition so that the people can have a vote at a will guarantee it a prompt passage. referendum and make a decision. The passage of the Bill would enable a referendum to be held in conjunction with the State election. This would al- WORKS: BUILDING MANAGEMENT low all Western Australians to deter- AUTHORITY mine their own electoral laws, rather Borrowings than have the laws determined for them by the 18 Liberal Party members 430. Mr MENSAROS, to the Minister for of the Legislative Council. Works: Over the past two days, the Leader of I deviate from the practice of Govern- the Opposition has been very vocal in ment members by asking a non-propa- opposition to the proposal of a Senate ganda budgetary question. I expect Select Committee to apply equal rep- only a very approximate answer from resentation provisions of the Bill of the Minister for Works, hence I trust Rights to the States. His repeated he will answer and not ask me to put theme on radio and in print has been the question on the Notice Paper. that Western Australians should be (1) How much of the projected total $254 left to determine their own laws. Does million to be used for public buildings he mean the 18 Liberal Party mem- by the Building Management Auth- bers in the Legislative Council? The ority will be, or has been, borrowed by Government believes that Western the Minister through the WA Building Australians as a whole should be Authority? 4004 4004[ASSEMBLY]

(2) If the total amount has not been Tenders should be called in February- borrowed, or is not going to he March next year and, given the con- borrowed, what is the source of the struction time for this type of project, balance? it is anticipated it will be completed in 1986. Mr McI VER replied: Day wards are an economic and ef- (1) and (2) In all honesty, off the cuff I do ficient way of easing the pressure on not have the faintest idea, but bed occupancy as they enable some tomorrow I will obtain the infor- surgery to be undertaken without mation for the member and advise overnight stay. It is anticipated that him of it. I do not think anybody else this will reduce the requirement for would have that sort of information surgical beds at Kwinana Rockingham off the cuff. allowing some of these to be used for medical admissions. HEALTH: HOSPITAL Given this Government's commitment to decentralise health services Rockingham Kwinana District: Day Ward away from the large central hospitals, 431. Mr BARNETT, to the Minister for I was very pleased to give this project Health: a high priority which resulted in the allocation of funds in the 1985-86 I also ask a non-propaganda budgetary Budget. question. The Minister will recall that I have made representations to him on a number of occasions about my wish ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION to see a new day ward constructed at AUTHORITY the Rockingham Kwinana District Responsibility Hospital. 432. Mr RUSHTON, to the Minister for the I notice a provision of $50 000 in the Environment: Budget for Rockingham Kwinana Dis- I refer the Minister to my question trict Hospital. Does this mean that the 1451 regarding installation of lights on Minister for Health has accepted my the WACA ground. representations and that this project is (1) Does the Minister not have responsi- to proceed? bility for the Environmental Protec- Mr HODGE replied: tion Authority? (2) Does the EPA not have the responsi- I am pleased to give the member for bility to vet the environmental impact Rockingham a non-propaganda of extensive developments which budgetary answer. could affect the surrounding environ- I do recall the numerous represen- ment? tations from the member for Mr DAVIES replied: Rockingham. As a result of those rep- (1) and (2) Under the Environmental Pro- resentations, I had the matter tection Act I am required to refer to investigated and I am pleased to ad- the EPA for consideration any project vise that the investigation revealed a that is likely to affect the environ- new day ward at Rockingham menit. That is not only my responsi- Kwinana District Hospital was cer- bility. Any member, indeed any per- tainly warranted. The total cost of the son, can ask the EPA to investigate project will be in the vicinity of $250000 of which $50000 was any single project. allocated in this year's Budget. This I do not know whether the lights on amount will cover planning costs and the WACA ground will affect the en- cash flow for the initial construction vironment, but I have asked the EPA phase. Planning is well advanced and to consider the matter. I do not think discussions are being held with the the lights will cause any great upset. hospital administrator and the nursing We will get the EPA to see, after initial director to resolve the details of the inquiries, whether any further action project. is necessary. May I repeat that not [Thursday, 7 November 1985J100 4005

only I have the power to do this. Any In addition to this the State Govern- single person in the whole of Western ment has set up a special counselling Australia can do exactly what I am service in conjunction with private doing. If the member feels he would agricultural consultants specifically like to do so himself I will not be up- for those farmers who had experi- set. enced a poor run of seasons. This scheme gives farmers access to the ex- AGRICULTURE: RURAL SECTOR pertise of the Australian Association of Agricultural Consultants with the HARDSHIP Government meeting two-thirds of the Government Initiatives farmer's cost and the farmer paying the balance. The farmer receives the 433. Mr D. L. SMITH, to the Minister for consultant's report, including pro- Agriculture: fessional opinion on individual situations, as well as suggestions for Given the State-wide concern at the positive steps which could be taken to worsening prospects of the rural sector counter difficulties currently being ex- this season, can the Minister for perienced. Agriculture outline Government initiatives to alleviate the burden of This month, following representations struggling rural producers? from farmers, this Government Mr EVANS replied: launched a scheme to alleviate rural hardship caused by mortgagee sales. A The plight of this State's drought-af- seven-member Rural Land Sales fected rural producers is a matter of Liaison Committee will be set up to real concern to the Government. As oversee farm mortgage sales. The members will be aware, there are now committee will work to ensure that eight declared drought affected shires those farmers forced into sales are not in the wheatbelt, these being put at a disadvantage. It will also help Kondinin, Bruce Rock, Corrigin, to stabilise proceeds to the farmer Kulin, Lake Grace, Quairading, and received from such sales. The com- Narembeen, and pant of the mittee has the support of the financial Kellerberrin Shire south of the Great institutions, the Pastoralists and Graz- Eastern Highway, and the H-ollander iers Association, and the Primary In- Rock ward of the Kent Shire. These dustry Association. shires were declared drought affected following a Drought Consultative The Government's attention has also Committee meeting held in October been drawn to the plight of small 1985. businesses operating in drought- affec- Aid measures already made available ted areas. Financial difficulties now to rural producers in these areas in- face the small businesses based in clude loans of up to $70 000 at 4 per drought- affected rural areas where cent interest per annum, plus crop forecasts are gloomy and where, transport subsidies for livestock and as a result, farmers are unwilling to fodder up to a maximum of $10000 spend or borrow money. Small busi- per farmer. ness proprietors who are able to demonstrate grounds for financial assist- As well as direct financial aid, the De- ance can apply for loans of up to partment of Agriculture and the Pri- $70 000 over a maximum period of mary Industry Association have seven years, at an interest rate of 4 per circulated over 2 000 questionnaires cent. This relief package will be to wheatbelt farmers. The survey was administered by the State Treasury initiated at the request of the Primary until legislation can be prepared Industry Association which indicated giving authority to the Rural Ad- a need to gauge the demand for credit justment and Finance Corporation. at the beginning of the 1986 farm year The funds have been made available and the likely debt servicing difficult- through new Commonwealth-State ies. natural disaster relief arrangements. 4006 4006[ASSEMBLY]

We have introduced fuel concessions, Mr Peter Jones: You were quoted as sup- deregulated transport and cut porting the Prime Minister's approach transport costs-measures that will to sanctions; the Prime Minister's ap- provide benefits to all those engaged proach to South Africa included the in agriculture. imposition of sanctions. The State Government has worked. Mr BRIAN BURKE: Are you sure of that? closely with rural representatives to Mr Peter Jones: That is what I read. ensure that rural communities most feeling the harsh effects of drought Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am interested be- will be given all the assistance possible cause the member may be to help them overcome this difficult misrepresenting the position. period. We are continually canvassing Mr Peter Jones: That is what I read. the Federal Government to provide Mr BRIAN BURKE: Can the member supplementary assistance in the areas undertake to give the reference for of reduced tariffs and interest rates to that quote? It is relevant to the ques- producers because, try as we can to tion because I never said it. What I solve problems facing rural communi- said was- ties, we simply do not have the legal Several members interjected. and financial ability alone to make everything rosy. Mr BRIAN BURKE: The question is trying to impose a situation which is not We sympathise with rural communi- true. I said I supported the general ties experiencing hardship and I think policy position that the national our actions demonstrate this. We will Government had adopted, but that the continue to assist such communities Cabinet had done nothing more than as pant of our election commitment to express its immediate support for that govern for all Western Australians. general position. As far as the practical application of SOUTH AFRICA that general position was concerned, it Economic Sanctions had not been considered by Cabinet 434. Mr COURT, to the Premier: and would not be considered until next Monday, or the Cabinet meeting (1) When will the State Government spell the Monday after. That is why I was out the economic sanctions the particularly interested to find out. Government will take against The member for Nedlands and the companies trading with South Afica? member for Narrogin say they have (2) Is the Premier aware of the approxi- seen a quote which says I supported mate number of Western Australian the policy of sanctions. I have said I companies exporting to South Africa supported the general position and to southern African countries adopted by the national Government through South Africa? in its foreign policy towards South (3) Will those companies be informed by Africa. the Government before the sanctions Mr Hassell: Which includes sanctions. are introduced? Mr BRIAN BURKE: It may include sanc- Mr BRIAN BURKE replied: tions. I am not sure whether one can (1) to (3) May I ask the member for equate that. Nedlands-perhaps I have missed I am just interested because members something-when did I say we were say they have seen a definite quote going to impose any sanctions? where I said I supported sanctions. I Mr Court: The report is in the Press that do not recall ever saying that. you were supporting the Prime Minis- Mr Peter Jones: You said you supported ter's approach to South Africa, which the general position of the Federal included the introduction of sanc- Government. tions. Mr BRIAN BURKE: I would be interested Mr BRIAN BURKE: I was quoted as say- to know the member's reference. He ing I support sanctions? will front up with it, I am sure. The [Thursday, 7 November 1985] 404007

answer is that we have supported the a number of reasons. First, the general position which the Federal constitutionality; second, trying to Government announced in support of find out what is a South African the general application of that country; third, addressing com- position, which I presume includes passionate circumstances where sanctions and other things. We have people, for example-and I think I not given it detailed consideration. 1 gave this example-who had left did not want to be seen to be agreeing South Africa because they did not like with what the member said about sup- the political regime there, had loved porting sanctions. We will consider ones there and were unable to get mail the detailed application of the general from those people. position of the national Government. Mr MacKinnon: You are not sure? Mr MacKinnon. How is it different at a Mr BRIAN BURKE: I am not sure Federal level and a State level? whether we do. Mr MacKinnon: You support sanctions at Mr BRIAN BURKE: It just happens to be the Federal level but not at the State an elementary constitutional fact that level because of the political kickback. the authority over foreign policy, and is that right? that includes trade, is a Common- Mr BRIAN BURKE: We have not con- wealth authority. sidered it in Cabinet. At the Press conference I said what I But I ask the member for Narrogin have told the House now, but it was again whether he will let me have the difficult for ihe State Government, for quote. He will not!