House of Commons Home Affairs Committee Terrorism Detention Powers Fourth Report of Session 2005–06 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 20 June 2006 HC 910-II Published on 3 July 2006 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £16.50 Home Affairs Committee The Home Affairs Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration and policy of the Home Office and its associated public bodies; and the administration and expenditure of the Attorney General’s Office, the Treasury Solicitor’s Department, the Crown Prosecution Service and the Serious Fraud Office (but excluding individual cases and appointments and advice given within government by Law Officers). Current membership Mr John Denham MP (Labour, Southampton, Itchen) (Chairman) Mr Richard Benyon MP (Conservative, Newbury) Mr Jeremy Browne MP, (Liberal Democrat, Taunton) Mr James Clappison MP (Conservative, Hertsmere) Mrs Ann Cryer MP (Labour, Keighley) Mrs Janet Dean MP (Labour, Burton) Mr Shahid Malik MP (Labour, Dewsbury) Margaret Moran MP (Labour, Luton South) Gwyn Prosser MP (Labour, Dover) Bob Russell MP (Liberal Democrat, Colchester) Martin Salter MP (Labour, Reading West) Mr Richard Spring MP (Conservative, West Suffolk) Mr Gary Streeter MP (Conservative, South West Devon) Mr David Winnick MP (Labour, Walsall North) The following Members were also Members of the Committee during the inquiry: Colin Burgon (Labour, Elmet) Nick Harvey (Liberal Democrat, North Devon) Nick Herbert (Conservative, Arundel and South Downs) Steve McCabe (Labour, Birmingham Hall Green) Powers The Committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/homeaffairscom. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are Dr Robin James (Clerk), Mr Mark Etherton (Second Clerk), Kate Akester (Adviser (Sentencing Guidelines)), Martha Goyder (Committee Specialist), Ms Arabella Thorp (Inquiry Manager), Mr Ian Thomson (Committee Assistant), Jenny Pickard (Secretary) and Alison Forrester (Senior Office Clerk). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Home Affairs Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 3276; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] . Witnesses Tuesday 7 February 2006 Page Dr Eric Metcalfe, Human Rights Policy Director, JUSTICE, Ms Shami Chakrabarti, Director, Liberty, Ms Gareth Peirce, Birnberg Peirce Solicitors and Mr Tim Owen QC, Matrix Chambers Ev 1 Tuesday 14 February 2006 Lord Carlile of Berriew QC Ev 16 Professor Ross Anderson, Foundation for Information Policy Research, Mr David Lattimore, Technical Manager, Digital Crime Unit, LGC Ltd and Mr Peter Sommer, London School of Economics Ev 25 Mr Daren Greener, Systems Technology Consultants Ltd, Mr Vinesh Parmar, Telecoms Forensic Technical Manager, Digital Crime Unit, LGC Ltd and Mr Gregory Smith, Principal, Trew & Co Ev 30 Tuesday 28 February 2006 Andy Hayman QPM, Assistant Commissioner and Peter Clarke CVO OBE QPM, Deputy Assistant Commissioner, Head of the Anti-Terrorist Branch and National Co-ordinator of Terrorist Investigations, Metropolitan Police Service Ev 35 Tuesday 21 March 2006 Rt Hon Charles Clarke MP, Secretary of State for the Home Department Ev 56 List of written evidence Page 1 Association of Chief Police Officers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland (Terrorism and Allied Matters) Committee and the Metropolitan Police Service Ev 70 2 British Irish Rights Watch Ev 73 3 Campaign Against Criminalising Communities Ev 76 4 Robert Czapiewski Ev 78 5 Foundation for Information Policy Research Ev 79 6 JUSTICE Ev 82 7 David Lattimore Ev 87 8 Liberty Ev 91 9 Mark Morris Ev 94 10 National Technical Assistance Centre Ev 96 11 Mr Vinesh Parmar Ev 97 12 Evan Price Ev 98 13 Secretary of State for the Home Department Ev 100 : Ev 102 14 Gregory Smith Ev 102 : Ev 109 15 Peter Sommer Ev 110 : Ev 114 16 Chris Sundt Ev 115 17 UKERNA Ev 118 18 Professor Brian Collins Ev 119 19 Daren Greener Ev 121 20 Metropolitan Police Service Ev 125 3321251001 Page Type [SO] 27-06-06 23:41:29 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence Ev 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Home Affairs Committee on Tuesday 7 February 2006 Members present: Mr John Denham, in the Chair Mr Richard Benyon Gwyn Prosser Mrs Ann Cryer Mr Richard Spring Mrs Janet Dean Mr David Winnick Mr Shahid Malik Witnesses: Dr Eric Metcalfe, Human Rights Policy Director, JUSTICE, Ms Shami Chakrabarti, Director, Liberty, Ms Gareth Peirce, Birnberg Peirce, Solicitors, and Mr Tim Owen QC, Matrix Chambers, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: Can I welcome you to this first session please do not feel the need to say it again. I will start of our Inquiry into Terrorism Detention Powers. oV, if I may, with Shami Chakrabarti. Do you accept Just by way of background, obviously the House of the basic contention that terrorism cases do present Commons voted before Christmas on proposals to special features for the legal system and the criminal extend the period of detention without charge to a justice system and so, in principle, should be treated maximum of 90 days and voted to reduce that period diVerently from other criminal cases? to 28 days. There was considerable discussion at that Ms Chakrabarti: I thinkthe first proposition that I time about how well or how poorly the case for an would make is that terrorism is crime, and that is extension for detention powers had been made and, very important. If you remember, Mr Denham, the notwithstanding the fact that the House of diatribe recorded by Mohammed Sidique Khan, Commons had already voted, this Committee who was one of the London bombers, one of the decided to hold a short inquiry into the case for many things that he said was “This is a war and I am detention powers and the alternatives that have been a soldier.” I thinkone should always be careful, put forward, and so on. We hope certainly that this whether with political rhetoric or with political and inquiry is not simply of historical interest because, as legislative policy, not to allow a murderer to call we know, there will be a proposal, in a year or so’s himself a soldier. There are also dangers with any time, to produce perhaps a consolidated Terrorism culture of exceptionalism, because I believe the Act, pulling together all the various diVerent threat is real and I thinkit may be long term and so strands, and it seems very likely that, in some form there are grave dangers with a state of exception that or other, these debates around detention and the could go on for a generation or several generations. conduct of terrorism investigations will come back That said, I do accept that some terrorist oVences are onto the political agenda. We hope our inquiry, likely to have very serious consequences. I think inevitably it starts from a discussion which the what is important is to be specific about particular House of Commons was having a few months ago, operational problems and particular oVences, rather will be useful when we come to lookat these issues than for people on either my side of the argument or in the future. Can I start by asking each of the the security side of the argument to talkabout witnesses if you could introduce yourselves, very whether terrorism is so unprecedented that we have briefly, for the record, then we will get under way? to change the rules of the game. Mr Owen: Tim Owen, Queen’s Counsel, from Matrix Chambers, barrister, with experience of criminal and human rights issues. Q3 Chairman: In principle, this is acceptable, to have Ms Chakrabarti: Shami Chakrabarti, Director of legislation which may be described as a Terrorism Liberty, the National Council for Civil Liberties. Act, but, nonetheless, we need to lookvery carefully Dr Metcalfe: Eric Metcalfe, Director of Human at what it contains? Rights Policy at JUSTICE. Ms Chakrabarti: When we do, I thinkone should Ms Peirce: I am Gareth Peirce, a solicitor who has make an important distinction between the spent a lot of her life in Paddington Green Police substantive and the procedural criminal law. For example, in this country now we are well used to Station. V V Mr Winnick: You have been impersonated in films having specific o ences that are terrorist o ences; as well. some people have concerns even about those. They tend to be broader in their ambit and at times they include reverse burdens of proof, and so on. Of Q2 Chairman: Thankyou. I have a couple of course one has concerns about that, but the graver opening questions which I am going to address to all diYculty, in my view, is with undermining the witnesses, but, in view of the time, if you agree procedural criminal protections, in particular the completely with what the last person has just said presumption of innocence. 3321251001 Page Type [E] 27-06-06 23:41:29 Pag Table: COENEW PPSysB Unit: PAG1 Ev 2 Home Affairs Committee: Evidence 7 February 2006 Dr Eric Metcalfe, Ms Shami Chakrabarti, Ms Gareth Peirce and Mr Tim Owen QC Q4Chairman: Do any of the other witnesses wish to Ms Peirce: I think, the IRA bombing campaign, add anything significantly diVerent from that? which was directed, for the large part, against Mr Owen: Speaking from the point of view of a London over 25 to 30 years, it is quite wrong, practitioner, I thinkthe answer to your question is, retrospectively, to classify it as it was seen no, I do not see, from the way in which the criminal throughout by the police and the security services as justice system has to operate, that it requires anything other than exposing the citizens of London fundamentally diVerent rules.