PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

Ninth Delegated Legislation Committee

DRAFT POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONER ELECTIONS (AMENDMENT) (NO. 2) ORDER 2014

Thursday 17 July 2014

PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £5·00 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office.

No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than

Monday 21 July 2014

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2014 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1 Ninth Delegated17 JULY 2014 Legislation Committee 2

The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chair: MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE

† Abbott, Ms Diane (Hackney North and Stoke † Morris, Grahame M. (Easington) (Lab) Newington) (Lab) † Offord, Dr Matthew (Hendon) (Con) † Barclay, Stephen (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con) Paisley, Ian (North Antrim) (DUP) † Brine, Steve (Winchester) (Con) † Penning, Mike (, Criminal Campbell, Mr Ronnie (Blyth Valley) (Lab) Justice and Victims) Corbyn, Jeremy (Islington North) (Lab) † Russell, Sir Bob (Colchester) (LD) † Dromey, Jack (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) † Stewart, Bob (Beckenham) (Con) † Hemming, John (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD) † Wilson, Phil (Sedgefield) (Lab) † Jenrick, Robert (Newark) (Con) Love, Mr Andrew (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op) Edward Beale, Committee Clerk † Menzies, Mark (Fylde) (Con) † Milton, Anne (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury) † attended the Committee 3 Ninth DelegatedHOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 4

be—has responsibility for it. The Electoral Commission Ninth Delegated Legislation supports using a pamphlet. I understand from the returning Committee officer that he will expect the candidates to pay £250 towards the cost of the pamphlet on top of their deposit of £5,000. Thursday 17 July 2014 As I have said, I would have hoped that we would not have to hold this Committee today. We would all have expected this matter to have been picked up during the [MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] passage of the original Bill, but it was not. Let us be honest: it should have been. With that in mind I hope Draft Police and Crime Commissioner we can address the anomaly and have a successful Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014 by-election, and increase turnout through the pamphlet. We will assess how the pamphlet works very carefully to see whether it increases the turnout. 11.30 am The Minister for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): (Mike Penning): I beg to move, I welcome the Minister to his new duties and wish him well. Will he confirm whether someone has already That the Committee has considered the draft Police and Crime checked that there will be sufficient polling stations, in Commissioner Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014. case of school building work or other issues there may It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, be given the strange timing of this by-election? Mr Chope. I will say at the outset that we all would have hoped that the statutory instrument we are debating Mike Penning: My hon. Friend raises an important today would not need to be debated, not least since we point. I will not pre-empt what the returning officer has are doing so because a police and crime commissioner, to say—I think it will be later on today—but the intention Bob Jones, has sadly died. I am sure that the members is that the by-election will be during the school holidays. of the Committee would like to express our condolences A lot of the polling stations in our constituencies are in to his family, friends and loved ones. I also want to say schools, some of which are having major repairs done. how disappointed we all are that certain individuals That question was put to me privately by some Members decided that they would push for a by-election before of the House before the Committee, and I wanted to Mr Jones had even been buried. I know that has caused check the answer. I understand that 1,208 polling stations a great deal of concern and upset to his family. It was will be required for the by-election to take place. As of absolutely appalling. I hope the public in the west today, we are short of 29, which I think is quite a midlands know exactly what has gone on. remarkable result considering the timing of the election. With those remarks in mind, it is my privilege to ask Of course, contingency measures are in place to ensure the Committee today to consider the draft order, which that, for instance, portakabins will be available where was laid before the House on 9 July. It is a quite a necessary. I understand that the returning officer, whom specific piece of secondary legislation about how we I hope to meet next week—if not next week, certainly publicise the candidates. I have spoken to the shadow before the by-election—is content that it will be possible Minister about this already: until I looked at the order I to find the 29 polling stations. A substantial number of had thought—I think we all had—that there would polling stations are required at a difficult time, and I have been provision for that within the legislation already. commend the work of the returning officer and his In fact, I asked my officials to investigate fully whether officials on the matter. the issue had been raised at any time when the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill went through the Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Is the Minister House. This anomaly—that is the best way to describe saying that for the substantial sum of £250, somebody it—had not been raised in this House on Second Reading, could have his or her name on literature delivered free in Committee, on Report or on Third Reading. Nor had to every household in ? it been raised during the Bill’s progress through the other place. Mike Penning: No, not least because the by-election is in the west midlands. I understand the point, and I Sadly, the processes of the House seem not to have am being slightly flippant; I apologise to the hon. worked. I hold my hands up. I was not the Minister at Gentleman. As I understand the situation, the cost to the time, and I know the shadow Minister did not have the candidate of the publication will be £250. However, his current role at the time, either, but if an amendment it is up to the returning officer to determine the cost on this issue had been tabled, I think we would have within a bracket of up to £1,000, and that is to be accepted it. I can only go on the basis of what I have confirmed. However, each candidate has to put down a been told. I hope I am not wrong, but I understand such deposit of £5,000, which they get back. The rest of the an amendment was not tabled; if it had been I think we cost of the pamphlet will be borne by the . would have accepted it, as it would have shown up the anomaly that we are dealing with today. Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Do we have any For the first time, there will be a by-election for a idea how much such a by-election will cost the public police and crime commissioner, in the west midlands—held purse? in very sad circumstances, as I said. We now have to address how we make sure that the public have full Mike Penning: My hon. Friend puts quite a difficult knowledge of who the candidates are. We intend to use question. The west midlands is a geographically and a pamphlet. The police area returning officer—I tend to demographically large area, and we are still looking at call them that; that is what we all understand them to what the cost to the taxpayer will be—we still have to go 5 Ninth Delegated17 JULY 2014 Legislation Committee 6 out to tender—but we think that the cost may well be 11.42 am about £700,000 to the taxpayer through the Home Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): It is a Office’s budget. A lot is in the hands of the returning pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. officer. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his new post as the Minister with responsibility for policing. He is a Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I welcome decent, blunt, straightforward and—dare I say it, and I the right hon. Gentleman to his new post and wish him would, wouldn’t I?—well-spoken man. I pay tribute to well. I think he is in an invidious position. The Labour his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Ashford party opposed the concept of police and crime (), with whom I worked closely. He, too, commissioners, principally on the grounds of cost. My was a decent man of great integrity. We had our concern is not only the cost that the Minister has disagreements, but I wish him all the best for the future. already identified, which is in excess of £250,000, but Above all, I pay tribute to Bob Jones, who was a the fact that this is another piece of controversial legislation close personal friend. I launched his election campaign. that has been rushed through in haste. Another example He was one of the best police and crime commissioners. of that is the surveillance Bill. If the House had had the He worked hard, seven days a week. There was nowhere chance to consider some of the potential problems and in the region that Bob did not visit in his constant anomalies and consult more widely, some of the problems attempts to connect with the communities, young people and costs could have been avoided. Does the Minister and black, Asian and ethnic minority groups in the agree? region. He worked with the police and championed so many causes—above all, neighbourhood policing. He Mike Penning: No, not least because I do not think was a great man who will truly be missed. I will be at his that the hon. Gentleman’s argument stacks up. He used funeral next Wednesday. the word “rush”. I have sat on many Public Bill Committees, I make it clear from the start that we will be supporting and the Bill received line-by-line scrutiny in this place this order, but we will be asking a number of questions and in the other House. As I have said, if—it is a big that need to be answered. The first has perhaps been if—in hindsight, the anomaly that we are addressing answered already. The Government must accept total, today had been identified, we or the Opposition would complete and sole responsibility for the mess we are in. have tabled an amendment or new schedule, but it But for the fact that we are in Parliament, where certain simply was not picked up. I do not believe that it was a language is not acceptable, I am sure that both the right question of time. The legislation was based on a fixed hon. Gentleman and I would use colourful language to term for commissioners rather than predicting that describe the mess that we are in as a result of fundamentally there might be a by-election. I put my hands up and say flawed legislation. that that should have been addressed in the Bill. We all Secondly, I want to press the right hon. Gentleman believe in parliamentary scrutiny, so if I have put my on the true costs of the elections, because it seems, from hands up, Members from other parts of the House, not the calculations that have been forthcoming from the least Her Majesty’s Opposition, should also put their Government and the local authorities, that they are hands up, because they did not pick up the anomaly mounting by the day. Thirdly, I want to press the right either. If we are going to be honest with each other—I hon. Gentleman on what the consequences will be of am brutally honest at times—I must say that we did not having an election on 21 August. pick it up. The anomaly has nothing to do with the Bill’s being rushed through, not least because many hours Stephen Barclay: Is the hon. Gentleman’s point that were spent in Committee on the line-by-line scrutiny. the omission, which resulted in cost to the taxpayer, was A lovely note on the expected costs was passed to me obvious? If it was, why was it not picked up by Her while I was taking an intervention, which was great Majesty’s Opposition? timing. The booklet cost will be £700,000 and the cost of the by-election as a whole—the cost of running the Jack Dromey: A straight answer to a straight question: by-election throughout the whole of the west midlands, we opposed the Bill throughout because we regarded it including running 1,208 polling stations and counting—will to be a flawed concept. Ultimately, it passed into law, be about £3 million. In good faith, I again admit that but it was the Government’s Bill. No matter how hard the anomaly should have been picked up when the Bill Government Members try, the Government must accept went through the House, and I hope the Committee will responsibility for the legislation they put on to the see the need for this order. statute book that has resulted in an election with an electorate of 1.8 million being called for 21 August—it Grahame M. Morris: Will the Minister give way? is unprecedented in modern electoral history.

Mike Penning: I will let the shadow spokesman, the Grahame M. Morris: Can my hon. Friend estimate hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington, speak, and I the opportunity cost? How many police officers would will give way later on. £3 million pay for, on the basis of a salary in the west Our thoughts and prayers are with the family of midlands, at a time when police budgets are under such Mr Jones. We hoped that this situation would not occur, intense pressure? but sadly it did. With that in mind, we need this order to ensure all the candidates have the ability to get to the Jack Dromey: I will return to that point, but I will say electorate. Let us also hope that we get a much better at this stage that more than 1,000 police officers have turnout. We will scrutinise closely how the booklet already gone in the west midlands. The thin blue line is works, in comparison with how the original PCC elections being stretched ever thinner, with ever more serious worked. consequences for neighbourhood policing. 7 Ninth DelegatedHOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 8

[Jack Dromey] been raised to me about the inadequacy of provision for those who are blind or partially sighted. The Electoral Commission’s original concerns stated On the issue of costs, the explanatory memorandum that the historic low turnout for the election of PCCs in for the statutory instrument states that to print the November 2012 was materials for the elections for an “average sized” “a concern for anyone who cares about democracy.” constabulary will There were 36 million people registered to vote, but “cost the Home Office £0.3 million.” only 5.49 million cast their vote. The Electoral Commission In answer to the earlier question from my hon. Friend cited many reasons for the lack of participation in the the Member for Easington, if that figure alone—we elections, several of which are relevant today. The first have heard higher figures today—was scaled up for was the “lack of awareness” of either the election or its PCC elections nationwide, the cost would be £12.3 million, candidates. That is what the Government are now seeking which is the cost of putting 527 police officers back on to address. Secondly, it cited the “unfamiliar time of the beat. The statutory instrument states that the provision year” for the election. To say the least, this will be will be used as a trial period ahead of the 2016 PCC repeated, because the Government have created legislation elections. What is the actual cost to the public purse—the which enables a by-election to be called in August, with taxpayer—of the by-election? the original elections just two years ago in November. Paragraph 10.3 of the explanatory memorandum Both were the worst possible times of the year. states: Thirdly, the Electoral Commission cited the “lack of “An Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this instrument.” information” on what the elections were for and what So the calculation about what turnout might be has not the PCCs would be in a position to do. Is the Minister been properly addressed. On cost, paragraph 10.2 of seriously saying that the proposals in the statutory the explanatory memorandum states that, instrument will be able to fund the information needed “As set out at paragraph 7.7 above, providing candidate information on not only what the candidates offer but, more importantly, booklets for a by-election in an average sized police force area is the role of PCCs? Fourthly, the Electoral Commission expected to cost the Home Office £0.3 million.” referred to the short time between the original Act That is what the Government said last week. Today they coming into force and the start of the election, with think it will be £700,000, subject to tender. A fresh only 10 weeks between the two. Once again, the Government figure was given of £700,000 or, perhaps, as high as have realised too late that their legislation is flawed. £3 million. Will the Minister give exact clarity on what When the original legislation was introduced, the Electoral it will cost and how much that cost will be to the public Commission stated that the short time between the purse? enforcement of the Act and the start of the election in The head of electoral services in Birmingham has November was too short. That was a 10-week gap, and said that they have been advised that it will be 6 weeks for the by-election. “subject to parliamentary approval…before the end of July”, At the time, the Electoral Reform Society said: all of the costs will be met by the Home Office. What “The stated purpose of electing police and crime commissioners are the total costs and will they be borne by the Home was to improve accountability and reconnect the public and the Office? If not and the Government are turning to local police—an aim which is clearly undermined by a painfully low authorities in the west midlands—Birmingham is already turnout.” reeling from the biggest cuts in local government history It predicted a turnout of 18.5% in November 2012. We of £800 million. It cannot be that, because of the now know that the turnout was even lower, at 14.7% Government’s inadequate legislation, local authorities and just over 12% in the west midlands. The Electoral are asked to bear some of the burden. Will the Minister Reform Society lambasted the Home Office for having give clarity on total costs and who bears them? what almost seemed to be a Turning to the unfolding chaos surrounding the elections, “5 point plan to drive turnout into the ground”. I refer to the assessment prepared by the head of electoral services in Birmingham. The meeting has been Its report was published in March 2013 and fundamentally taking place this morning and I have had further feedback challenged the Government in terms of the adequacy—or from that. What has been said and confirmed this rather, inadequacy—of the original legislation. The morning on the issue of polling stations is: Government have at last, 16 months later, placed a sticking plaster over the problems they created with the “Due to the time of year a number of polling stations will not be available on the 21st. This is not just a Birmingham problem as original legislation. However, the SI leaves a number of all LROs are reporting similar issues. As of 12th July out of the unanswered questions. 460 polling stations used in Birmingham in May, some 136 may It is very unclear whether the SI has addressed the have to be replaced because they are either already booked…or in the case of schools are not available”, issues raised by the Electoral Reform Society about the documents in question being available in other languages for example, because of essential maintenance. As a or in formats for people with sight difficulties. It details consequence, they are looking at where they have the how this will be tackled in Wales, with police area polling stations and also the merger of polling districts— returning officers having a duty to translate any standard single polling stations for a combined polling district or, texts for residential purposes. It is extremely vague, perhaps, two or three. The people who have voted in the however, how this would be implemented across England. same polling station for 20 or 30 years will suddenly That is especially true when it comes to those with sight have to travel some distance to vote in person. difficulties, and I know that from my own work in The ERO goes on to say that Birmingham, where I work very closely with the Royal “Unfortunately there will be insufficient time to consult on any National Institute of Blind People. Concern has already changes due to the limited time available.” 9 Ninth Delegated17 JULY 2014 Legislation Committee 10

Concern has been expressed across parties about what The Government have no one to blame but themselves. the consequences of that might be. Regarding staffing, The by-election is an insensitive and costly farce and the head of electoral services continued: should never have happened. Having said that, at least “We have highlighted as a significant risk that a high proportion this sticking plaster today is to be supported. We are of polling stations may not be opened on time…it is worth noting where we are and in these difficult circumstances we that all election officers across the region have concerns about have to make the best of it, but the Government have a staffing not just on polling day but also for the count. It is also lot of serious questions to answer. worth noting that key election staff will be on leave at various times during the period leading up to polling day. In Birmingham alone it is anticipated that at any given time between one third 12 noon and a half of the permanent core team will be on leave during that time.” Sir Bob Russell: I would also like to congratulate my Of course they will be; this by-election will be on right hon. Friend on his promotion. My earlier intervention 21 August. was to draw attention to the possible unintended consequence of providing at very low cost the equivalent Regarding the new arrangements on postal votes—again, of an Argos catalogue to be distributed free by the an important issue—the head referred to DWP and public purse through thousands of doors. local matching and said that, in Birmingham alone, “we will still have some 117,470 households to write to where the The reason I raised that point is that many years ago, properties are empty or we were not able to confirm against DWP before I became a Member of Parliament, we had a records.” candidate standing in a general election, a local dentist, In meetings all over the region, it was said yesterday and who was the smile candidate. I can see now hundreds of is being said today that there will be immense problems thousands of people across the west midlands having a complying with the new arrangements, the consequences candidate from whatever organisation, trade or whatever of which might well be that thousands lose their ability getting a free plug courtesy of the Home Office paying to vote. for free distribution to every household. That is a serious In the head’s own words, what is happening, coming consequence. together, particularly with the postal voting arrangements, I also question whether serious candidates should be “has the possibility to confuse electors. Whilst this has been on the same pamphlet as a by-election leaflet that we flagged up with both the Home Office and Cabinet Office (who are talking about. I raise that as an unintended consequence. have responsibility for the PCC by-election and IER respectively) Many of us in the coalition did not approve of police the rules require us to do it this way. Through no fault of our and crime commissioners but it was part of the coalition own”— package. My hope is that there will not be a need for the he is right on that— re-election of commissioners. That said, I want to put “I suspect we will receive some criticism for this.” on record that the police and crime commissioner for What is happening on the ground is not just concern Essex is an exceptionally good man, even though he is a about the timing or cost of the by-election, but utter Conservative. chaos in the by-election’s conduct, due to the Government’s fundamentally flawed legislation. 12.2 pm Birmingham and six other boroughs—seven proud boroughs—have the largest electorate outside London, Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) with 1.81 million people and 1.1 million households. (Lab): I rise to welcome the new Minister to his position. The flawed legislation has allowed two individuals associated I believe he has some knowledge of blue light services. with UKIP to trigger a by-election within days of the Even though I will probably disagree with everything he death of Bob Jones for 21 August, before Bob was does, I wish him the best of luck with his promotion. buried and to the great distress of his widow. I want to extend my commiserations to Bob Jones’s Due to the Government’s flawed legislation, we will family. It was a very untimely death and very shocking see costly chaos—cost to the taxpayer, and chaos in the for his immediate family and everyone who knew him. I administration of the by-election. Worryingly, thousands want to make the point that the Labour party was could lose their ability to vote. It is not just the confusion fortunate when seeking our candidate for this by-election about polling stations, but, to take just one example, in being able to choose from a good range of candidates, hard-working families who are on the register but not including Councillor Yvonne Mosquito, who is long- yet matched will have to apply afresh, including supplying standing councillor, qualified lawyer and member of national insurance details. If they cannot do so in time the police committee, very well dug into her community because of the tight time scale, and they cannot vote in and her church. She was, of course, Bob Jones’s deputy. person because they are on holiday, they will not be able However, it was not to be. to vote. The outcome of the costly chaos will be thousands Clearly, in the circumstances it is important that this unable to vote. piece of legislation goes through. If we are going to have this by-election it is important that the maximum Stephen Barclay rose— number of people get the basic information in order to exercise their vote. I hope that for as long as the PCC Jack Dromey: Let me finish this point. system is in place all parties make a point of encouraging Once again, the risk that we run, which is being a wide range of people to stand for election. talked about in boroughs across the region, is that we might have an even lower turnout than the 12% last 12.3 pm time round; perhaps it is premature to put an exact figure on that. The Government have not said anything Mike Penning: I fully understand many of the comments, by way of an impact assessment. Have they made any not least some of those of the shadow Minister. I did calculations? address a lot of the points he touched on in his speech 11 Ninth DelegatedHOUSE OF COMMONS Legislation Committee 12

[Mike Penning] police authority. The hon. Member for Easington implied that perhaps that money could be spent on other things in my opening remarks, because I knew he would ask in the police. It is not a cost for the police, but for the them, not because he told me but because they were Home Office. The estimated costs for us as the Department obvious. are, as I said earlier, £3 million plus £700,000 for, as the I will say at the outset that no one wanted this hon. Gentleman alluded, a large authority. It is the by-election at this time. It has been called for political second largest authority in the country, which is why reasons by another political party. The best way I can there is the increase in the cost. The cost to the candidate describe them is as abhorrent reasons; that someone’s will be £5,000, which they have to put down as a death should be used in a political way such as this. deposit. It is not my decision, as I said to the hon. However, they have used local councillor rules under Member for Colchester, how much the candidate pays the Local Government Act 1972. That is what has for the booklet. I understand it is going to be £250. happened. Two people calling for it is exactly the same They cannot publicise anything other than their candidacy rule as we have for councillors. The sad thing is that if in the documents, which is important and quite restrictive. Bob had been a councillor they could have done exactly To touch on some of the issues to do with polling the same. I fully accept that. That is on the statute book stations, the figure I gave was for the whole of the PCC and we duplicated that in the legislation when it came authority. I have the figures for Birmingham as of last through. That might be wrong and something we need night. Birmingham needs 460 and had 440 available last to look at. night. I have been assured of that by the returning My hon. Friend the Member for Colchester raises an officers and if it is different to the information that the important point. The Electoral Commission has hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington has, I will recommended the booklets, so we will almost use this as share it with him. What is going on is not a secret. I a pilot. We will evaluate how that works. Each candidate applied pressure last night to ensure that polling stations still has to put down £5,000. It is up to the returning were open. I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern that officer or the police area returning officer to make the people might be on holiday and will not be able to vote, decision as to where he puts it in the scale. I say he but it is exactly the same legislation as it would be for a because it is a he in this case; I am not being sexist. I local authority, which comes under the Local Government understand that he is going to put it at the £250 limit. Act 1972. I have a personal view but perhaps I should not share it Party politics has a time and a place. This, on the with the Committee, because I do share some of the death of Bob Jones, is neither. I hear from not only the concerns my hon. Friend has raised. shadow Minister, but from others, that Bob was an I thank the hon. Member for Hackney North and excellent and dedicated police and crime commissioner. Stoke Newington for her kind comments. We have I stress that if he was dedicated, he was doing a good known each other for many years. It is an interesting job and one that Her Majesty’s Opposition opposed. situation because as a paramedic in the military and a We need to let the position continue for a bit longer member of the fire brigade I was on a blue light. To now because what we have seen from the PCCs in most have the police job, as well as many other responsibilities, cases—not every case—is that where people were opposed is a great honour. I pay tribute to the work that the to them initially they have seen them doing an excellent police do across our country in difficult circumstances. job. Bob Jones was doing an excellent job. It will be for the electorate to decide how good a job Bob was doing, Jack Dromey: I echo that, both in relation to the and to decide about any of the other PCCs around the Minister’s own history and the modern police service. country. I fully respect the fact that in its passage through the House the Bill was opposed. When I was May I press the Minister on the questions of cost? He sitting on the Opposition Benches not so long ago, we may be about to come to it, but the full cost has gone had Bills that we disagreed with. We tabled amendment from £300,000 to £700,000 to £3 million in less than after amendment to try to make them better, or, if we seven days. What is the full cost? What will it cover? Will were fundamentally opposed, we tabled wrecking it all be borne by the Home Office or will any fall on the amendments, and often we were voted down. No local authorities concerned in the west midlands? amendment relating to this matter was tabled at any Regarding the impact assessment referred to—that is, time during the progress of this Bill, and there was the lack of one—has the Home Office looked at the plenty of time to have done that. If Her Majesty’s likely turnout as the seven boroughs are now doing? If Opposition had seen the anomaly, they could have so, what is the Minister’s assessment of the likely turnout? tabled an amendment. If we had seen it, we would have done so. Mike Penning: I would obviously have come to every I fully accept that in government the Minister take point that the hon. Gentleman has just made because the flak—that is right and proper—but the anomaly he made them in his speech so I will take them in could have been picked up and no one did so. We are sequence. listening to the Electoral Commission. It wants us to do Until a couple of days ago, I was the disabilities booklets and we should trial that. A by-election will Minister. One of the first questions I asked about the give us that opportunity in a very large base. The west booklet was how people with all types of disability, midlands has the second largest in the country for the particularly those with visual impairment, would access PCC. Let us see how the booklets work and whether it. I have been assured that that has been addressed, but they increase turnout. it is right that I take it up again. I will reiterate the comments I made to do with cost. Jack Dromey: For clarity, we voted against the Bill. It All costs will be borne by the Home Office. There will is most unusual for a Government to blame the Opposition be no cost to the local authority and certainly not to the for their legislation. However, may I press the Minister 13 Ninth Delegated17 JULY 2014 Legislation Committee 14 on this? The seven local authorities trying to make the that the hon. Gentleman has, I will share that information best of a bad job are getting on with it. They are with him as the process goes forward, and I will write to making judgments as to likely turnouts. Their judgments him or any other member of the Committee if there are are bleak in the extreme, and they are the people at the further points that need to be addressed. The Electoral sharp end looking at it. The Home Office must also Commission wants us to trial the booklets to see whether have looked at likely turnout by way of an impact we can improve what I accept was a very bad turnout assessment. If so, what is the figure or the range of two years ago when the PCC elections were held. anticipated figures? By-elections are always difficult, as in the council and parish elections in our own constituencies when the Mike Penning: One thing I am not capable of doing is turnout is always very low. We must make all efforts, guessing, which is what the local authorities are doing. and I hope all the candidates will make all efforts, Their guess is based on what the turnout was last time, whether or not they oppose the legislation. Let us hope and on by-elections and local elections in the summer we get a candidate as good as Bob, who did the job for period. I will not get into those realms. We will work as his people in his part of the world, putting policemen closely as we can with the local authorities to make on the front line and listening to what people want in sure— their constituencies. That is the crucial part. We are going to have PCCs—it is on the statute book—so let us Jack Dromey rose— make them work. The booklets are an opportunity to try to do that. Mike Penning: No. I have given way so many times. Question put and agreed to. The hon. Gentleman made a long speech. If we are to Resolved, support this legislation, we need to get on. We are That the Committee has considered the draft Police and Crime working enormously closely with the local authorities. I Commissioner Elections (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014. have been in the job only two days, but I have asked them serious questions about making sure polling stations will be available, and I have had assurances on that. If 12.14 pm my information is slightly different from the information Committee rose.