Thursday Volume 538 12 January 2012 No. 247

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 12 January 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 307 12 JANUARY 2012 308

Mike Penning: I am always more than happy to meet House of Commons colleagues, especially to discuss the A23, which is a much-improved road since the Hindhead link tunnel Thursday 12 January 2012 was opened. The stretch of the A23 about which my hon. Friend is concerned is mainly a matter for the Mayor, but I am more than happy to help in any way I The House met at half-past Ten o’clock can. Stephen Metcalfe: The Minister is aware of the PRAYERS importance to the national economy of the Dartford crossing, and he is introducing plans to increase capacity. However, to get the maximum benefit from those [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] improvements work must be done on junctions 30 and 31 of the M25. When will the Minister publish detailed, costed plans for those improvements, which are especially important given the developments that have taken place Oral Answers to Questions in the Thames Gateway? Mike Penning: I can tell my hon. Friend the Member TRANSPORT for Thurrock—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe); I apologise for having got the constituency name wrong, The Secretary of State was asked— but it is a long time since I stood for election in that part of the world. We are currently working on the costings Road Infrastructure for junctions 30 and 31. As my hon. Friend will be aware, the fantastic investment by DP World at the 1. Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): What steps she Gateway port means there will be work at junction 30, is taking to improve road infrastructure. [88221] and we will publish proposals as soon as we can. 4. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): What Julian Sturdy: As my hon. Friend the Minister will steps she is taking to improve road infrastructure. know, I am deeply concerned about the A64 and the [88224] A237 in York. Those vital road corridors are increasingly 10. Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) congested and accident prone and are a major drain on (Con): What steps she is taking to improve road our local economy. Can the Minister give me any infrastructure. [88231] information about any future funding for projects, and will he again meet me and a group of local MPs who 13. Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): What steps she share my concerns? is taking to improve road infrastructure. [88234] Mike Penning: It looks like I shall be very busy with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport meetings, but I am more than happy to meet my hon. (Mike Penning): The Government announced in 2010 Friend and his colleagues as we look for new road that we were investing £2.1 billion to start 14 new road programmes for the future. He may not know that I was schemes over this spending review period and to complete on the A64 to Scarborough on new year’s day and eight existing schemes. A further £1 billion of new experienced some of the traffic problems on that day. investment was also allocated in the autumn statement to tackle areas of congestion on the strategic road Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): As the Minister’s network. constituency is near mine, he will know that we in the eastern region have terrible east-west road links. Is he Mark Garnier: As the Minister will be aware, a number carefully considering any serious schemes for improving of other projects can have specific local economic impacts. those links? Two such projects are the Stourport link road and Hoo Brook link road in Wyre Forest. Will the Minister meet Mike Penning: Yes, and we are looking very closely at me and the leaders of Wyre Forest district council and one of the most significant road problems we have: the Worcestershire county council to discuss how his A14 link across the eastern corridor. We have limited Department might assist in the progress of those two available funds, but I am very pleased that the Chancellor projects? announced an extra £1 billion in the autumn statement. I will be happy to work with the hon. Gentleman at any Mike Penning: I will be more than happy to meet my time to improve the transport links in our part of the hon. Friend and those council leaders, but I think this is world. probably a matter for my colleague the Minister for local roads, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). Although we always like to hear of the big schemes, is If he can meet them, that will be fine, although, ultimately, the Minister aware that low-cost engineering schemes these matters are for the local authorities. save the most lives? They are the best investment and offer the best bang for the buck. In this the United Gavin Barwell: Congestion on the A23 is a major Nations decade of accident reduction, the most likely problem. Will the Minister or one of his colleagues cause of death for any young man anywhere in the meet me to discuss what the Department, along with world is a road accident, so will we consider any innovations the Mayor of London, can do to improve conditions on we might introduce on the roads through low-cost that road? schemes? 309 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 310

Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Mrs Villiers: In considering the recommendations of right and the fact that he mentions is a sad indictment. the independent McNulty report and before any decision Boys aged between 17 and 25 are 10 times more likely to was made on changes to future ticket office rules, it be involved in an accident than a lady of that age. would of course be vital carefully to assess the needs of Low-cost schemes are vital, and some of the very low-cost disabled communities and pensioners. That would be a schemes, such as retro-reflective paint on roads, have very important part of any decisions made on future moved things on a huge amount in the last 10 years. I reform of ticket offices. assure the hon. Gentleman that I am considering such schemes. Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The McNulty report identified some 30% savings in real costs across Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): The Government the piece. If that is to be achieved by the closure of have approved construction of the Switch island to ticket offices or in other ways, what will the Minister do Thornton relief road. The land is owned by a number of to ensure that that money will be passed on not to the Government agencies, including the Forestry Commission, rail companies but to the users? The line from the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency and the Chippenham—the constituency of my hon. Friend the Highways Agency. Will the Minister encourage his Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames)—to London ministerial colleagues to speed up negotiations with is among the most expensive in the world: more, mile Sefton council, so that work can start on the road? for mile, than the cost of Concorde. We need to cut those rates, and we can do that by saving money on the Mike Penning: I am working with other Departments infrastructure. and Ministers. This is a vitally important scheme and we will push it forward as fast as we possibly can. Mrs Villiers: We have made it clear that it is vital to get the costs of running the railways down, and it is also vital that the benefits of those cost reductions be shared Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Cycle by both taxpayers and fare payers so that we can give infrastructure is sadly lacking across the country and both better value for money. If we can achieve savings that causes a number of safety problems, such as a on the scale contemplated by McNulty, we could, we recent tragedy at King’s Cross and many others around hope, see the end of the era of above-inflation fare the country. What steps is the Minister taking to improve increases. the quality and amount of cycle infrastructure on our roads? Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): Costs impact on fares, as the Minister has just said. In London, Mike Penning: Most of the roads I am responsible for Conservative Mayor Boris Johnson—[HON.MEMBERS: are part of the national road infrastructure, and I hope “Hooray!”] I expected a more Pavlovian response, there are no cyclists on that part of the infrastructure. Mr Speaker. Mayor Johnson has approved rises on However, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: cycling average of nearly 6%, yet Labour mayoral candidate is vital not only to local commuting and enjoyment but Ken Livingstone—[HON.MEMBERS: “Hooray!”] Much to the health of the nation. I am sure that the Under- better, Mr Speaker. Both sides of the House appreciate Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the the Labour candidate; I am sure he would be very Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) was listening closely reassured. Ken Livingstone says he can cut fares by to what the hon. Gentleman said. between 7% and 11% because of Transport for London surpluses. Has the Minister had any discussions with Ticket Office Closures Mayor Johnson about the rises?

Mrs Villiers: The hon. Gentleman is completely naive 2. Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab): in his approach to Ken Livingstone’s proposals on fares. Whether her Department has conducted an impact Livingstone’s numbers simply do not add up, and his assessment of the proposal in the McNulty report on track record shows that he promises fare reductions and closure of ticket offices. [88222] ends up delivering fare hikes.

The Minister of State, Department for Transport Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): Does (Mrs Theresa Villiers): No impact assessment has been the Minister agree that no station operator should be conducted of this proposal in the independent report allowed to close ticket offices where there are any real undertaken by Sir Roy McNulty. concerns about security and safety as a result of creating an unmanned station? Teresa Pearce: Disabled people in my constituency already have trouble accessing work and leisure Mrs Villiers: Certainly, if we were to change the way opportunities in London because Erith station’s London- ticket offices operate, we would need to look carefully at bound platform has no disabled lift or step-free access. all safety and security consequences, as well as taking They are advised by the train operating company to into account the concerns of the disabled community travel in the opposite direction for 15 minutes and then and pensioners. However, we do need to look at ticket change trains. The closure of the ticket office at Erith offices as part of the process of reducing costs on the will further disadvantage this group of people. Will the railways, in order to deliver the better value for money Minister consider an equality impact assessment on the that passengers want. We need to do that because the proposal and reject McNulty’s plans to close ticket way passengers are buying tickets is changing. Oyster in offices, particularly at places such as Erith, where disabled London demonstrates that there are some high-quality people already face a difficult journey? alternatives to the ticket queue. If we can roll those out 311 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 312 more widely, which we plan to do with ITSO smart Justine Greening: I hope that I can give the hon. Lady ticketing, that will make a difference to our approach to a firm commitment, and it is one that she will doubtless future decisions on ticket offices. have seen in the Command Paper itself.

High Speed 2 (Scotland) Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): May I encourage the Secretary of State not to consider extending 3. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) HS2 to Scotland and instead to place that investment in (Lab/Co-op): Whether she has made an assessment of improving rail capacity to Plymouth and the far south-west? the benefits of extending High Speed 2 to Scotland. We are now without an airport and, as the motorway [88223] stops at Exeter, we desperately need to increase our rail connectivity to the rest of the country. The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): High Speed 2 would serve Scotland from phase 1, Justine Greening: My hon. Friend raises the very through current classic-compatible high-speed trains important question of value for money. The Scottish running on the existing network, with half an hour Government have already said that they are willing to being taken off journey times to Scotland. Although fund a high-speed rail link within Scotland, and of the Department has made no specific detailed assessment course I will make sure that I strike the right balance of the benefits of extending high-speed lines to Scotland, between developing any high-speed network further I am committed to delivering a truly national high-speed and maintaining our investment in the existing railway rail network. Of course, the Under-Secretary of State network. for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), was up there yesterday Rail Franchises (Scotland) having those very discussions.

Tom Greatrex: I thank the Secretary of State for her 5. John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): response and trust that her ministerial colleague enjoyed What discussions she has had with the Scottish his time in Scotland yesterday and will be back there Government on the renewal of rail franchises for very soon. services from and to Scotland. [88225] I am sure that the Secretary of State is aware of the business case made by CBI Scotland and others about The Minister of State, Department for Transport the benefits, including those for business across the UK, (Mrs Theresa Villiers): The Secretary of State has not of HS2 eventually coming all the way to Scotland. Is yet had the opportunity to discuss rail franchising with she also aware of the concern that has been expressed in the Scottish Government, although I have had a number the past couple of days that the constitutional uncertainty of such meetings. There are also regular contacts on rail in Scotland may make that less likely? Does she therefore franchising between the Department for Transport and agree that it is important that that issue is dealt with so Transport Scotland at official level. that HS2 and all the economic benefits can come to Scotland, and are then followed through? John Robertson: I thank the Minister for her reply. She will be aware not only of the possibility of a Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman makes an referendum in Scotland, but that the ScotRail franchise excellent point and I completely agree with it. Like comes to an end in 2014. Does she agree that when many Members in this House, I want to see a United deciding on a new contract the Scottish Government Kingdom and one of the ways we can unite our kingdom should consider the fact that ScotRail has had the is through high-speed rail. highest level of customer complaints and a fourfold increase in overcrowding at a time when prices are rising Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): by 6%? Will she note that the company’s boss is a Is the shadow Minister aware that on this issue we need leading Scottish National party supporter and contributor? to consider not only what the British Government can do, but what the Scottish Government can do? Is she Mrs Villiers: I certainly noted the hon. Gentleman’s prepared to consider allowing the Scottish Government concerns about ScotRail. I will take them on board and to ensure that they can start to build the high-speed line officials will be happy to raise them with Transport themselves, using their own money and at no cost to Scotland. English taxpayers? Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): The west Mr Speaker: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman did coast main line franchise, which serves the west of not intend to relegate or demote the Secretary of State. Scotland, is up for renewal next year. What consideration have bidders for the franchise been asked to put in place Justine Greening: Thank you, Mr Speaker. to ensure that no disturbance is caused by the construction I do not need to allow the Scottish Government to do of HS2, either at Euston or in the London area during that; they already have the ability to get on with starting the period of that franchise? the preparatory work for a Scottish high-speed line if they want to do so. Mrs Villiers: It will be a very important part of the planning process for the construction of HS2 that every Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): effort is made to minimise the disruption on existing rail The real benefits of high-speed rail will come from networks. Indeed, that is one of the reasons why building taking the line beyond Birmingham. What commitment a new high-speed rail network is a better option than can the Secretary of State give to extending the line to seeking to eke more capacity out of the existing west Leeds, to Manchester and then, possibly, to Scotland? coast main line, given the decade of disruption that 313 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 314 passengers suffered on that. There will be an impact on she bring forward the timing of the first announcement Euston, but a huge amount of effort is going to be put of the plans so that we can all understand the potential into ensuring that that is minimised. benefits and downsides of the route?

High Speed 2 (Scotland) Justine Greening: The timelines are that we will get some initial advice on potential routes later this year, 6. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): What which will enable us to start having those discussions discussions she has had on the route for High Speed 2 with local stakeholders and that, by 2014, we will have a and its possible extension to Edinburgh and Glasgow. preferred route on which we can formally consult. I [88226] hope that over the course of this year the sorts of discussions my hon. Friend mentions will be able to The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): take place. The former Secretary of State held discussions with Scottish Ministers regarding a potential extension of Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Have the discussions High Speed 2 to Scotland last year. As I said, the about extending the route to Scotland included considering Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend bringing the fast trains through Birmingham and into the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), the black country, an area that has the largest concentration was up there yesterday and we expect to have further of manufacturing companies anywhere in Europe? That discussions with the Scottish Government to identify measure would enable the Government to deliver on and evaluate options for developing high-speed rail their commitment to rebalancing the economy in favour further in the future. of manufacturing and would cost much less than the alterations she has made to the route to allay the Graeme Morrice: I hope that the Under-Secretary, concerns about farms and fields in the home counties. who was in Scotland yesterday discussing rail issues, took the train to Scotland. The Scottish Council for Justine Greening: The decision I announced earlier Development and Industry’s recent survey of leading this week was my final decision on the route of phase 1, Scottish businesses demonstrated overwhelming support but I was in Birmingham yesterday and one thing that for extending high-speed rail to Scotland because of the came across very clearly to me was the broader benefits significant economic benefits that it will bring. Will the of High Speed 2 for the whole region, including the Secretary of State now give a clear commitment that black country. Of course, by providing more capacity, it Scotland will be included in the development of the will free up capacity on the existing rail network, which project from the earliest stage possible? will particularly help that part of the country.

Justine Greening: Yes. Speed Limits

Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): Does my 7. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What right hon. Friend agree that taking the route of High plans she has to encourage the use of 20 mph speed Speed 2 through Heathrow will be important in achieving limits. [88227] a modal shift for domestic passengers travelling from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker): I recognise the value that 20 mph Justine Greening: My hon. Friend is right and that is speed limits can bring in some locations, particularly why the second phase of High Speed 2 will see a spur to outside schools, but it is for local authorities to decide Heathrow. It is also wise to point out that the first phase whether and where to implement them. Last October, I will see Birmingham airport effectively connected to took steps to make it easier for every English local High Speed 2, too. authority to introduce 20 mph zones and limits more efficiently and with less bureaucracy. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I hope that we will see direct trains from Scotland to Paris and Brussels. Jo Swinson: I thank the Minister for that reply. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the current Bishopbriggs in my constituency is trying to become proposal is for only a single-track interconnection between Scotland’s first 20 mph town and, as research shows High Speed 1 and High Speed 2 and is she open to that the risk of children being involved in an accident is imaginative ideas to make better use of existing capacity reduced by two thirds in 20 mph zones, that is to allow a proper two-track link between the two future understandable. I congratulate the Minister on the changes high-speed links? he has made. Of course, that improvement does not apply in Scotland, so may I ask what discussions he has Justine Greening: The right hon. Gentleman is right had with his Scottish counterparts about the success of to point out that we have plans to connect those two the scheme? It would be excellent if the Scottish National high-speed tracks in part of the first phase and his party Government followed suit, to the benefit of towns question demonstrates the opportunities for growing such as Bishopbriggs and others. that capacity in future years. I think it shows why high-speed rail is so vital to the future of not just the Norman Baker: As my hon. Friend will appreciate, capacity of our rail network but our economy. this is a devolved matter so I have had no such discussions with Scottish colleagues. There are 2,000 20 mph schemes Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): There is great in England and evidence from the British Medical Journal interest in the east midlands about where the route of shows a significant reduction in casualties and collisions HS2 and the east midlands station will be located. Will of about 40%, a reduction in the number of children 315 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 316 being killed or seriously injured of 50% and a reduction Justine Greening: In addition to the measures I just in casualties among cyclists of 17% where there are outlined in relation to increasing not only the level of 20 mph limits in London. Perhaps my hon. Friend salt we have but our ability to get the most effective would like to pass that information back to the Scottish winter resilience out of that salt stock, we are also Government. investing to make sure that our rail companies are far better able to cope with bad weather. That includes Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Many making sure that we have more de-icing trains as well as residents in my constituency, like me, support the increased better technology for existing trains to de-ice as they use of 20 mph speed limits, but we are finding that the run. That will be particularly beneficial to my hon. time over which designation takes place is still inordinately Friend’s constituents. long. I know that the Government have made welcome proposals, but are there any specific observations that Metal Theft my hon. Friend would like to make to assist my local authority in making speedier decisions? 9. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on metal theft Norman Baker: As I said in response to the initial from railways and motorways. [88229] question, we have made changes as part of the road signs review, “Signing the Way”, to make the introduction The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport of such limits and zones more efficient and less bureaucratic. (Norman Baker): I am in close discussions with ministerial It is now possible to use roundels on the road rather colleagues from the Home Office and other Departments than repeater signs, which saves money and is quicker to about the severe impact of metal theft on transport and introduce. We are also looking at the requirements on more generally. We are actively discussing measures to local authorities to advertise road changes in traffic tackle this, including amendments to legislation. We are management terms. also working with the police to establish a dedicated metal theft taskforce. Winter Salt Stockpiles Karen Lumley: I thank the Minister for that answer. Network Rail estimates that by the end of 2011, railway 8. Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): What passengers will have suffered half a million minutes-worth assessment she has made of whether stockpiles of salt of delay as a result of metal thefts. Those delays are for winter resilience have increased since 2009. [88228] discouraging people from using railways and Redditch is looking to improve business links. What assurances 14. Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) can the Minister give to businesses in Redditch that this (Con): What assessment she has made of whether House will legislate to protect the UK economy from stockpiles of salt for winter resilience have increased this crime? since 2009. [88235] Norman Baker: The Home Office is the lead Department The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): for legislation, but all Government Departments are Total salt stock holdings in Great Britain at the start of fully seized of the need to deal with this issue as a December last year were just over 2.7 million tonnes, matter of urgency. Discussions are taking place about including strategic stockpiles of 539,000 tonnes. This is options. This issue affects not only railways but the a significant improvement on the stock levels held in highway network and the coastguard service, for example. 2009 and is due to the actions that this Government Most despicably, the theft of cable in the Vale of Glamorgan have taken on winter resilience. recently forced the cancellation of 80 operations. Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): As Mr Walker: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for passengers up and down the country could tell the hon. that very reassuring answer. Will she join me in commending Gentleman, performance on Britain’s rail network is local authorities such as Worcestershire that have not getting worse and metal theft is a major factor. On the only increased their stocks but have also adopted new basis of the Department’s own figures, metal theft is set technologies such as the use of brine and GPS monitoring to cause up to 7,000 hours of delay this year. When are to make sure their reserves go much further? Is it not the Government going to act? right that in these difficult times in preparing for cold weather councils should be innovative and creative in Norman Baker: The Government have already acted doing more with less? with the measures announced by the Chancellor in his recent statement to appoint the special taskforce to Justine Greening: I absolutely agree with my hon. which I referred. As I have mentioned, there are also Friend and I very much welcome the preparations that ministerial discussions taking place across Departments. Worcestershire county council and other local highway I assure the hon. Lady that discussions are taking place. authorities have taken to be prepared for severe winter Particular proposals are being considered and evaluated weather. I also commend Worcestershire for taking on and there will be an announcement quite shortly, I board the guidance that was published through the UK hope. Roads Liaison Group in December 2010, which related to the sorts of things he has talked about. Maria Eagle: The hon. Gentleman is right to recognise the importance of this issue, but passengers want to see Mrs Grant: What other winter resilience plans does action, not just discussion and a taskforce. With passengers the Secretary of State have for Kent commuters? facing rail fare rises of up to 11% and given that the 317 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 318

Department calculates that this issue is costing Network population there. Thirdly, the IPPR report to which the Rail more than £16 million every year and a further loss hon. Lady refers is not complete; it did not, for example, of £10 million in economic cost to passengers and the include the December announcements on local major economy, when will the Government listen to Network projects and did not take into account the further Rail, agree to legislate to tackle the illegal market in £1 billion from the regional growth fund. It is not a scrap, and ban cashless transactions? complete analysis.

Norman Baker: Under the 13 years of the hon. Lady’s Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): One way Government nothing much was done to amend the of improving the north-east’s share of transport expenditure Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 and we are now taking would be to bring forward schemes to dual dangerous action on that front. The issue of cashless payment was single carriageway sections of the A1 that have already referred to by my ministerial colleague the Under-Secretary been prepared by the Highways Agency. Will my hon. of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Friend discuss with his ministerial colleagues the urgency Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), of bringing forward some of those schemes as soon as at Home Office questions on 12 December. He said that we can? he was looking at dealing with a situation where cashless payments ought to be removed. As I mentioned a Norman Baker: I am happy to say that the discussion moment ago, discussions are very active—very live—and has already taken place to some degree. The Under- I hope there will be an announcement in the near future. Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), is looking Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): As chairman at those schemes as we speak. of the all-party group on heritage rail, may I say that this matter affects heritage railways up and down the Speed Limits country? They often rely on volunteers and charitable donations and I add my voice to those urging quick 12. Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): What action on the problem. plans she has for future use of variable speed limits. [88233] Norman Baker: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the impact on heritage rail. With the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Bluebell railway partly in my constituency, I am very (Mike Penning): Mandatory variable speed limits will well aware of the impact on individual bodies such as continue to be used as part of the management of that, which are sometimes less able to respond financially traffic on controlled and managed motorways on the than the public sector. I am afraid that all sections of strategic road network. Three schemes will be started society are being affected by selfish metal theft and it is this year and there will be a further 10 schemes by the important that we take action to deal with it. end of 2015.

Transport Spending (North-East) Mr Knight: I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. We heard calls earlier today for the greater use of 11. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) 20 mph speed limits, but is the Minister aware that often (Lab): What proportion of central Government the danger that justifies a 20 mph limit is transient, such spending on transport is spent in the north-east. as outside a school, where the danger is present only [88232] briefly during the school day—in the morning, at lunch time and in the afternoon? As we already have the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport lowest speed limits in Europe, will the Minister encourage (Norman Baker): According to the latest figures published local authorities to make greater use of variable 20 mph by the Treasury, of the £10,380 million spent on transport limits so that once the danger has passed the limit will in the UK directly by central Government in 2010, default to 30? £293 million was spent in the north-east, which was broadly comparable with expenditure in the preceding Mike Penning: That is exactly what is being looked at years under the Labour Government. An additional in the Department at the moment. On the motorway £363 million was spent by local authorities, with some network, where variable speed limits help us to sweat of the funding coming from central Government. the assets, where we can stick to national speed limits we shall continue to do so. Chi Onwurah: The Minister referred earlier to the transport spending announced in the autumn statement, Northern Hub Railway but the Institute for Public Policy Research found that of that only 0.04% was spent in the north-east. The 15. Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con): Government will be spending £2,731 per head in London What progress has been made on the northern hub compared with a mere £5 in the north-east, and we railway project. [88236] know that high-speed rail will not even get as far as Leeds until 2033, so will the Minister look at decentralising The Minister of State, Department for Transport transport spending so that the north-east does not (Mrs Theresa Villiers): The Government have given the continue to be left behind? go-ahead for the construction of the Ordsall chord and the electrification of the north trans-Pennine route between Norman Baker: First, we are looking at decentralising Manchester and York via Leeds. These schemes will transport spending. Secondly, the proportion of expenditure allow faster trains between the north-east, Leeds, in the north-east is not particularly out of line with the Manchester and Liverpool. Network Rail is undertaking 319 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 320 further work on the remaining northern hub schemes. much welcome the Select Committee’s report and the We will consider these in developing the Government’s work of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) high-level output specification for rail investment from in raising the issue. The Government are already taking 2014 to 2019. action to ban such things as referral fees. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will work very closely with the Eric Ollerenshaw: Does my right hon. Friend agree Ministry of Justice to see what action we can take on that if we could complete all parts of the scheme it this issue. would be a tremendous demonstration of our continued commitment to further investment in the existing rail T4. [88244] Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): structure and to further investment in the north-west? Last month the Department announced funding for a number of road projects, including the Loughborough Mrs Villiers: This is exactly the sort of issue that we inner relief road. I thank the Secretary of State for will consider in preparing our HLOS statement. I recognise that decision, for which we have been waiting the crucial importance for the northern economy of 40 years. Does she agree that road infrastructure is improving rail connections in the north. That is why we critical for the regeneration of towns and cities such as have already given the go-ahead to such important Loughborough? parts of the northern hub—earlier than many expected— and we will of course look very carefully at the whole Justine Greening: I absolutely agree. The investment project. It certainly looks to have a good business case, that we have been able to put into Loughborough will but delivering it will depend on what is affordable. make a critical difference to Loughborough, not least in helping to regenerate the town centre, improving public Topical Questions transport access and reliability and, importantly, improving accessibility for pedestrians, cyclists and people with T1. [88241] Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): If disabilities. she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities. T2. [88242] Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): I am sure that most hon. Members would agree that for The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): many visitors to any town or city in the UK their first Earlier this week I announced to Parliament my decision impression, and perhaps their last, will be of the train on High Speed 2, giving the go-ahead to a national station. Will the Minister use her good offices to ask high-speed network that will dramatically increase capacity ScotRail, Network Rail and Dundee city council to and reduce journey times between our cities. Over look at improving Dundee’s train station? Christmas, negotiations were concluded on a £188 million deal between Southern and Bombardier which will see The Minister of State, Department for Transport 130 new carriages ordered from the Derby-based (Mrs Theresa Villiers): As the hon. Gentleman has manufacturer. The Minister with responsibility for roads acknowledged, this is a devolved matter over which I announced a £2.7 million investment in 3D laser-scanning have no direct power, but I am happy to raise it with technology. Before Christmas, I announced funding ScotRail and Network Rail if he would find it helpful. approval for a further 21 local authority major schemes, T5. [88245] David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) on top of the 20 schemes announced by the Chancellor (Con): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the in the autumn statement. The total Department for Secretary of State on the announcements on HS2 and Transport contribution for all 41 schemes will be up to the longevity of the railway system in this country. May £972 million. I press her to find out what steps are being taken to open up access on the west coast main line link so that Gavin Barwell: My right hon. Friend referred to the passengers from Carnforth can get to London? procurement by Southern of more than 130 new carriages. Is that not fantastic news for hard-pressed commuters Justine Greening: As my hon. Friend may be aware, from my constituency and for Bombardier, its employees high-speed rail will enable capacity on the west coast and its supply chain? main line to double, and Network Rail is now able to review the ability to use that released capacity to provide Justine Greening: I absolutely agree. This is a win for better services for constituencies across the country, everybody concerned. Southern will deploy the new hopefully including his own. vehicles on its most overcrowded services, which will be of huge benefit and relief to passengers. T3. [88243] Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): The Secretary of State will be aware that many of the rail John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): enhancement projects in Scotland, including the Today’s excellent report from the Transport Committee Edinburgh Glasgow improvement programme and highlights the scandal of dodgy whiplash claims that Borders Rail, are being funded by borrowing against are hiking up insurance premiums for honest motorists. the value of Network Rail’s regulatory asset base, Why, just a couple of months ago, did the right hon. which is of course a Great Britain-wide asset. Does she Lady’s colleagues reject Labour’s amendments to the agree that those projects and many in the future would Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders not happen in a separate Scotland, given that there Bill which would have curbed whiplash claims? In light would be no GB assets to borrow against? of today’s report will she reconsider that opposition? Justine Greening: That is one of many questions of Justine Greening: The hon. Gentleman would be this nature that a push towards an independent Scotland better directing his question to the Ministry of Justice, would raise. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to which leads for the Government in this area. I very raise his concerns about the destabilising impact that 321 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 322 independence would have, where none of the benefits excess toll revenue, which will leave the council little hoped for by those who want independence would be room for manoeuvre to discount local tolls. Will the realised, but many of the downsides would absolutely Secretary of State please look at this again? come to fruition. Justine Greening: I think that the deal we struck with T8. [88248] Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): Road the hon. Gentleman’s local council is the right one, and crashes are the biggest single killer of young people one that it signed up to. It enables it to get on with the aged between 17 and 25 in this country today. Will the new crossing, which will provide welcome extra capacity Minister join me in congratulating Cheshire safer roads for many people in the area. partnership’s “Think, Drive, Survive” scheme, which brings officers into schools to teach young drivers Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): The about better road safety? What more can the A47 is a vital strategic route from east to west, but in Government do in this respect? many places it is still single carriageway. Does the Minister agree that it needs to be upgraded to a national The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport strategic route, as it was before the previous Government (Mike Penning): I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware downgraded it? that I have done that excellent scheme in Cheshire and have the certificate on the wall in my office. One of the Mike Penning: I am very aware of the significance of things we can do is ensure that the test taken before that road. This is something we are looking at and will someone is given a driving licence is fit for purpose and continue to look at as we develop plans for future road that it is not simply a case of passing a test, but of improvements. giving the skills everyone needs, particularly young people, to be able to drive and enjoy the road safely. T9. [88249] Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op): I continue to receive representations from T6. [88246] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Driver constituents regarding the Government’s plans for fatigue and sleepiness is a major cause of road MOT tests. What assurances can I give them that accidents, and it is estimated that one in six lorry concerns about safety have been taken into account, drivers suffers from sleep apnoea. Does the Minister and what plans has the Secretary of State to update us? have any plans to increase health checks on lorry drivers to diagnose sleep apnoea? Justine Greening: I will be announcing the next steps on those plans very shortly and can absolutely assure Mike Penning: This is a condition that I have known the hon. Lady that, as with any decisions I take, safety is about for many years, as I used to be a heavy goods of paramount consideration. vehicle driver, and it is something I am looking at now. The hon. Lady has met me and knows that we are working on this. I look forward to bringing forward Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): May I thank proposals so that we can ensure that an industry that is the roads Minister for his interest in and commitment already very safe is even safer in future. to the £110 million expansion of the A14 around Kettering, and, given its proximity to the town of Kettering itself, Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Chippenham urge him to include as many noise reduction measures station lacks disabled access, in large part due to restrictions as he can when the scheme is constructed? on modifying buildings and structures considered to be historically important—I wonder what Brunel would Mike Penning: I had a fantastic visit to Kettering and think of that. Does the Minister agree that such looked at the roads programme that is going to be heritage concerns ought to be applied proportionately developed, as well as at the town centre redevelopment, so as not to frustrate either access to the railway or, which is a huge success. We will ensure that noise indeed, impose an unreasonable financial burden on reduction is part of the plan, so that the local community achieving it? benefits from the new road and is not encumbered by it.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport T10. [88250] Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): In (Norman Baker): I agree with that proposition. One of Bristol, the city council is being forced to make savings the problems is that the Victorian infrastructure, which of £2 million, directly affecting its subsidy to First Bus. is marvellous in many ways, was not built with the needs Routes are being cancelled, operating times are being of present-day communities in mind. The full Access cut and fares, which are already far too high, are still for All programme is continuing, and I think that it rising. What efforts are Ministers making to ensure that should be possible in most cases to improve access while local bus routes remain operational and affordable? respecting the integrity of such buildings. Norman Baker: I had thought that the hon. Lady T7. [88247] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): All parties might have written to congratulate the Government on support the proposed new Mersey Gateway crossing, the major investment programme in Bristol which we but there is concern that local people will have to pay a announced at the end of last year, with a number of toll to cross the bridges. I believe that they should schemes going ahead. But in terms of buses, she might continue to pay nothing. My big concern is that the have written to congratulate the Government also on deal that the Government have offered Halton borough the new “better bus area” programme, which includes council means that they will take 70% of any excess an extra £50 million for buses, £20 million for more revenue from procurement savings and 85% of any green buses and more money for community transport. 323 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 324

So there is a lot of money going into buses, and we are people, including of course business people who want doing a great deal to protect bus passengers and to to use it. The business case works on an assumption of improve bus services. standard rail fares, as we have on the current network, and I am absolutely clear in my mind that the way in Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I know that which we are going to make high-speed rail successful is the Minister is aware of the importance to economic by having as many people use it as possible—and that growth of the Hastings to Bexhill link road, which he is means having value-for-money fares. now considering. Is he also aware of the enormous lengths that its promoters have gone to in order to mitigate environmental concerns, including the proposed WOMEN AND EQUALITIES building of dedicated tunnels for dormice that might have to cross the road? The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— Justine Greening: I was not aware of the proposals relating to dormice, although I very much welcome Tax Credits them. I have had many representations from people in that region about the importance of the scheme. We are 1. Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): What considering them very carefully now, and I hope that we assessment she has made of the effect of changes to tax can announce our final decision on the scheme shortly. credits on the income of women. [88211] The Secretary of State for the Home Department and Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): Is the Secretary Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May): of State aware that, although there is a welcome on We have had to take tough decisions to protect the both sides of the House and in the city of Derby for her economy. The UK has an unprecedented budget deficit, decision on the Southern contract, and indeed hope for and spending on tax credits has become unsustainable. her decision on eVoyager, the real touchstone of the The savings from changes announced in the autumn Government’s approach to rail procurement will be the statement allow us to take further steps to protect the handling of Crossrail and, in particular, whether its most vulnerable, including significant increases in child financing is handled as was the Thameslink project? I care support to help women and families to get back know she has that in mind, and I hope that she can give into work. us a favourable answer on it today. Jonathan Ashworth: The Secretary of State will be Justine Greening: I am very pleased that the right aware that the median income of households with children hon. Lady has welcomed the deal that was struck between is set to fall in real terms, so does she think it fair that a Southern and Bombardier. I had her in my thoughts on family with children are set to lose £1,250 annually, the day of the announcement, because I know how whereas a family with no children are set to lose £215? much difference it makes to the city that she represents. I assure her that I take incredibly seriously the negotiating Mrs May: We are aware that things are difficult for process, ensuring that it is fair for all people involved families. That is why the Government are taking a including bidders such as Bombardier, and I will now number of steps to help families, such as cutting fuel work very closely over the next months and years with duty, freezing council tax and taking more than 1 million all people who want to bid for the important Crossrail people out of paying income tax altogether, more than procurement and ensure that that is fair. We have seen half of whom will be women. that when Bombardier bids for contracts, as it does, it can be successful. Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): On protecting women’s income, what safeguards are in place to ensure that Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Almost charging people to use the Child Support Agency does 50 years have passed since the 70 mph maximum speed not push mums who cannot afford to pay into further limit was introduced, and in that time there have been hardship? significant advances in motoring technology. When does the Minister expect to announce the outcome of her Mrs May: I have had a number of conversations with review of the matter? the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Justine Greening: I shall announce it very shortly, and Miller) on the arrangements for access to the Child we are absolutely committed to striking the right balance Support Agency. I am happy to say that the Department between looking at the important issues that my hon. for Work and Pensions has put arrangements in place Friend has just raised and doing what we can to maintain that, I believe, will make access affordable for women. and, indeed, improve motorway safety. We are taking steps to ensure that, in particular, women who have been subject to domestic violence are catered for. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Dieting Will the Secretary of State reject the previous Transport Secretary’s comments that high-speed rail would be 2. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What affordable only for business passengers, and will she discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on reassure passengers that the new high-speed line will be the effect of dieting on the health of women. [88212] both affordable and accessible? The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): I Justine Greening: I want to be absolutely clear: my meet ministerial colleagues regularly to discuss a range predecessor was very clear that the new high-speed rail of issues, including health, dieting and the body confidence line needed to be a railway that was beneficial to all campaign. Being at a healthy weight is important in 325 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 326 helping people to reduce the risk of serious illness. The Violence Against Disabled People Government are committed to helping people to reach and stay at a healthy weight. 3. Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): What Jo Swinson: It is January, which means that adverts in assessment she has made of the effect of Government women’s magazines everywhere are promoting diets and policies on efforts to tackle violence against disabled miracle weight-loss plans. The inquiry of the all-party people. [88213] parliamentary group on body image has heard evidence from the Royal College of Psychiatrists that not only do The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work 90% of diets not work, but that for people who are and Pensions (Maria Miller): The Government take susceptible, dieting can trigger eating disorders. How seriously tackling hate crime against disabled people, can the Government successfully promote fitness and and violence in particular. We are meeting the coalition healthy eating patterns against the onslaught of bad commitment to improve the recording of such crimes advice to skip meals, cut out food groups and obsess and working with voluntary sector partners to encourage over every calorie, with all the negative health consequences more victims to come forward. that that creates? Dame Anne Begg: Disabled people report an increase Lynne Featherstone: I congratulate my hon. Friend in the use of insults such as “scroungers” and “cheats” on the work that she and the APPG do on body image aimed at them, which reflects the language used by issues. It is important that the link between dieting and many media outlets when reporting the Government’s eating disorders is looked at closely. She rightly mentions own welfare reform. What action will the Minister take that 95% of diets fail. As a Government, we believe that to stop the Government adding to the perception that a diet is not just for Christmas but must be about one’s anyone on benefit is fleecing the system and is an lifestyle. The best advice is common sense. It is to eat acceptable target for such verbal attacks? healthily all year round and take appropriate amounts of exercise. Maria Miller: I thank the hon. Lady for her question, Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) because I agree that the use of such inflammatory (SNP): Dieting and calorie counting can be positive as language is not acceptable, and the Government will well as negative, as has just been pointed out. A positive not use it at all. We believe strongly that it is the system development might be to have calorific information on that has trapped disabled people in a spiral of welfare alcoholic drinks as well as the unit count. Have the dependency, and that is why the overhaul of the benefits Government given any consideration to that? system is such a priority. I hope that we can rely on her support for our work in that area. Lynne Featherstone: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting point and I will take it up with the appropriate Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): May I Minister. ask the Minister to examine MAMA—“Measuring Anti- Muslim Attacks”—which is a new system for reporting Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given the hate crime against Muslims, to see whether its use beneficial effects of breastfeeding on weight loss and on would be appropriate in relation to the reporting of the baby’s health, and that Britain has one of the lowest hate crimes against people with disabilities as well? breastfeeding rates of any country in Europe, what work is the Minister doing with the Department of Maria Miller: I am sure that we can learn a great deal Health to encourage women to breastfeed their babies? from many different areas about how to improve the recording of hate crime, which is still a work in progress. Lynne Featherstone: The issues around breastfeeding My right hon. Friend will be aware of the work that we are very sensitive. We have to find the balance between are doing with organisations such as Radar to increase raising the benefits that breastfeeding can bring and not third-party reporting of hate crime, but I will certainly making people who feel that they cannot breastfeed feel take up his suggestion. bad about it. The hon. Gentleman raises two important points about weight loss and what is best for babies. It also has benefits in relation to allergies. I work with the Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) Department of Health on all these issues. (Lab): I know that the Minister is deeply concerned about violence against disabled people, and she will be Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): It concerned by the point that my hon. Friend the Member has long been a Liberal Democrat policy to make for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) raised about personal, social and health education compulsory in reports of increasing threats of violence against disabled schools. That could include body image classes. Does people. She will be concerned also about the fear of the Minister regret that the coalition Government have many disabled groups that that is being fuelled by the set their face against making PSHE compulsory? tone of some of the Government’s remarks and their approach. There is a fear that certain elements of the Lynne Featherstone: The Government are reviewing Welfare Reform Bill, for example, have crossed a basic PSHE. The hon. Lady is absolutely right about body line of decency. In that light, will the Minister look confidence. The Media Smart programme for schools is again at the measures that the Lords voted on yesterday, voluntary, but it has had the greatest ever number of and particularly at the Government’s proposal to deny downloads of any such programme. We should also use young people who have been disabled since birth and the big society and have other groups going into schools. who cannot work the chance of getting contributory Not everything should rest on teachers’ shoulders. employment and support allowance? 327 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 328

Maria Miller: I thank the right hon. Lady for bringing wish to set up their own businesses. The most important up this issue. She is absolutely right that it is important thing that will in due course help to ensure that women that discussion of the Welfare Reform Bill is undertaken can get into the workplace, by making work pay, is the in an appropriate manner, although I think she is wrong introduction of the universal credit. in believing that the measures that we have put in the Bill are in any way adding to the problem. If we did not Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): At the recent north-west make the changes that are included in the Bill, which women’s enterprise day in my constituency, 200 inspiring were voted on in the other place yesterday, where does women who had started up their own businesses or were she anticipate that we would make the substantial necessary about to were given an excellent range of advice. What savings? can be done to roll out that kind of scheme across the country, and in particular to encourage women to take Women in the Economy the critical step from not just working in their businesses, but employing others and creating jobs? 4. Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): What steps she is taking to increase the role of women in the Mrs May: I commend the women’s enterprise action economy. [88214] that was taken in the north-west. That is a very good example of what can be done at local and regional level The Secretary of State for the Home Department and to ensure that we encourage women to use their full Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May): potential in the economy, which is to their benefit and Using the skills and qualifications of women who are that of the UK as a whole. Our introduction of business currently out of work would deliver economic benefits mentors is one thing that will help women not only to of £15 billion to £20 billion a year for the UK. The set up businesses, but to grow them in a way that will actions that we are taking, for example through the lead to them being employers. Work programme and our support for women’s enterprise, will ensure that that untapped potential can be used to Domestic Violence stimulate economic growth. 5. Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab): What Nadine Dorries: A year on from Lord Davies of assessment she has made of the effect of Government Abersoch’s report on the number of women in boardrooms, policies on efforts to tackle domestic violence against minimal progress has been made. It seems amazing that women. [88215] men who can run boardrooms, businesses and banks so effectively are unable to introduce policies of fairness The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): A and equality. What further does the Minister think can progress review of the Government’s approach to tackling be done to encourage organic change within businesses, violence against women and girls was published on banks and boardrooms and avoid a demeaning and 25 November. It highlighted many of our achievements degrading measure of quotas and shortlists? to date in relation to domestic violence, including, among many other measures: providing £3.3 million Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for making the funding for multi-agency risk assessment conference point that the best way to get change is not to impose a co-ordinator and independent domestic violence adviser quota on a country but to encourage people to recognise posts locally until 2015; introducing a requirement for the talents that exist within their companies. [Interruption.] multi-agency reviews after every domestic homicide; The hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) asks and piloting domestic violence protection orders in what is happening, and I am about to answer that, three police force areas. because it was one of the issues that my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) raised. Mr McKenzie: I recently visited a Women’s Aid project Since 1 March last year, 27% of board appointments to in my constituency. Is the Minister aware of the crisis in FTSE 100 companies have been female, and we are now accommodation for women fleeing violence? Such projects down to only 10 all-male boards in the FTSE 100. have been left with little choice but to advise vulnerable Progress is being made as a result of Lord Davies’s women on how to minimise harm if they are forced to report, but of course we continue to monitor the matter sleep on the streets. and will continue to work with companies to encourage them to use the talent available from the women who Lynne Featherstone: I understand, with all that is are in those companies and can be appointed to their going on in this age of austerity—there is not enough boards. money to fund everything—that there are issues around some of the funding for women, but the Home Secretary Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Does the and I could not have been clearer about the priority that Minister agree with the independent report published the Government place on tackling violence against women, by the Institute for Fiscal Studies last week, which by ring-fencing £28 million of funding and by sending a shows that on average, the Government’s decisions weaken loud and clear message to local authorities that they the incentive for those with children to undertake paid should not look for soft targets. work? Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Does Mrs May: What I would say to the hon. Lady is that the Minister agree that it is important to give priority the Government are already taking steps to ensure that for council housing to women who have suffered domestic we can help women into the workplace, particularly in violence? Will she work with the Housing and Local the Work programme and the work that we will be Government Minister to encourage councils to give doing through business mentors to help women who them top priority? 329 Oral Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 330

Lynne Featherstone: I thank my hon. Friend, who and that that £6.5 million budget has been cut by only raises an important point. If there is nowhere for a 1%. If local authorities are not using it appropriately, I victim of domestic violence to go post coming out of a suggests she takes the matter up with them. refuge, we are not solving any of the problems. I am happy to do as she suggests. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): What action are the coalition Government taking to help victims of domestic violence who come here on spousal visas? They desperately Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Safe, need help but have no money and no recourse to public secure accommodation is essential, as the Minister knows, funds. for women fleeing domestic violence, and she must be Lynne Featherstone: I thank my hon. Friend for that aware of the concerns of providers of refuge question. People who come on spousal visas—they are accommodation such as Women’s Aid, which has talked generally but not exclusively women—are left in a very of chaos in commissioning and its anxiety about the vulnerable situation when they find themselves victims removal of the ring fence on the Supporting People of domestic violence. The previous Government began grant, which means that refuges face cuts in funding of the Sojourner project, which provided some breathing as much as 50%. Does she share my concern that the space for those women. We have continued and extended Government’s proposal to remove the support element that project pending a long-term solution, which we are from housing benefit payments and transfer the money working on with the Department for Work and Pensions— to local authorities without protecting it for housing [Interruption.] Mr Speaker, are you coughing at me? support is another nail in the coffin of a nationally [Laughter.] I think I’ll quit while I’m ahead. funded network of refuges for women? Mr Speaker: I have never coughed at the hon. Lady, and I was not intending to start, but I am grateful for Lynne Featherstone: I would point out to the hon. her compassionate concern for the state of my health. If Lady that the ring fence around the Supporting People she had wanted to finish the answer, she could, but she budget was removed under the Labour Government, doesn’t, so she won’t. 331 12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 332

Business of the House rate capping; and the 1999 Labour Bill that finally restored democratic government to London. Will the 11.34 am Leader of the House explain what in this local government Bill requires it to have its entire Committee stage on the Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of Floor of the House? The Government are obviously the House please give us the business for next week? struggling to fill the Commons calendar, so in the spirit of new year bonhomie, and wanting to help the right The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George hon. Gentleman, may I ask him whether he could make Young): The business for next week is as follows: time for a debate on the Government’s mishandling of MONDAY 16 JANUARY—Opposition day [un-allotted their legislative programme? day]. There will be a debate on individual voter registration, On fat cat salaries, the Prime Minister, in his new year followed by a debate on the national health service. tour of the TV studios, announced that shareholder These debates will arise on an Opposition motion. votes on executive pay would now be binding. However, TUESDAY 17 JANUARY—General debate on the future in November he announced that his idea to address of town centres and high streets. The subject for this exorbitant boardroom pay was to appoint more women debate has been nominated by the Backbench Business to boards, and in October he told us that the solution Committee. was boards asking themselves, “Is this the right thing to do?” Over the past year we have had plenty of press WEDNESDAY 18 JANUARY—Consideration in Committee of the Local Government Finance Bill (day 1). releases from No. 10, but FTSE 100 bosses have put their own salaries up by a staggering 49%, while average THURSDAY 19 JANUARY—Motion to approve European earnings have gone up by just 1.4%. To prevent the documents relating to integrated EU infrastructures, Prime Minister from touring the TV studios once a followed by motion on public bodies—scrutiny of draft month with the latest wheeze, will the Leader of the orders—followed by continuation of debate on national House explain to him that if he is serious about dealing policy statements relating to ports. with fat cat salaries we need action, not more press FRIDAY 20 JANUARY—Private Members’ Bills. releases? When will we get it? The provisional business for the week commencing Perhaps the Leader of the House could also have a 23 January will include: word with the Chancellor and inquire when we can MONDAY 23 JANUARY—Opposition day [un-allotted expect a response from the Treasury to Will Hutton’s day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. report on fair pay in the public sector. In June 2010 the Subject to be announced. Chancellor announced—in yet another press release—that this was an “important review” and that it would pay a TUESDAY 24 JANUARY—Continuation of consideration in Committee of the Local Government Finance Bill “crucial role” in developing Government policy. Will (day 2). the Leader of the House enlighten us as to what has happened since the report was published 10 months WEDNESDAY 25 JANUARY—Motion to approve a European ago? document relating to EU criminal policy, followed by: the Chairman of Ways and Means will name opposed Given the defeat that the Government suffered last private business for consideration. night on their shocking plans to deny benefit to cancer sufferers, will the Leader of the House join me in THURSDAY 26 JANUARY—Business to be nominated by congratulating the tiny band of Liberal Democrats who the Backbench Business Committee. joined Labour and the “Cross Benchers” in standing up I should also like to inform the House that the for decency and fairness? Rather than using parliamentary business in Westminster Hall for 19 and 26 January time in this place to reverse the three votes that the 2012 will be: Government lost last night, may we instead have a THURSDAY 19 JANUARY—Debate to mark Holocaust debate on fairness, to remind the Liberal Democrats Memorial Day 2012. why they claim they came into politics in the first place? THURSDAY 26 JANUARY—Debate on the Culture, Media The Leader of the House will understand the concern and Sport Committee report on football governance. over the safety of PIP implants. The Secretary of State for Health announced yesterday a “rapid review” of the Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for that safety of people seeking cosmetic interventions. Can explanation of the packed legislative programme that the Leader of the House confirm when the review will he has brought to the House of Commons for the start conclude, and will he assure us that the Health Secretary of the new year. I notice that he has not announced the will make a statement to the House when it does? date for the Queen’s Speech, despite the fact that Paul The House is growing weary of rapid reviews being Waugh of PoliticsHome announced it on his blog last announced by press release. Last November, the week. We wait to hear some time in the future whether Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member he was accurate. for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) promised that the We learned this week that the Committee stage of the Government would publish by the “end of the month” Local Government Finance Bill is being taken on the proposals to clamp down on the access that lobbyists Floor of the House—virtually the only Government have to the Government. Since then we have had Mr Collins business to be taken on the Floor in the next couple of of Bell Pottinger boasting of the access to those at the weeks. The House of Commons Library has confirmed top of Government that he can arrange for his clients, that over the past 30 years, only five local government and now Mr O’Shaughnessy, one of the Prime Minister’s Bills have been treated in this way: the 1984 and 1985 Bills top aides, has signed up to another lobbying firm. What that abolished the Greater London council; the 1987 we have not had is the promised consultation. The last Bill on block grants and rate limitation; the 1991 Bill on time the Leader of the House was asked about this, at 333 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 334

[Ms Angela Eagle] of the House. Here we have a 10-clause Bill with three schedules and we are allowing three days for Committee. the beginning of December, he told the House that the I hope the House will support what we are doing, as Government would publish proposals “in a few weeks”. more than 600 experts on local government will be at Given that the consultation is now long overdue, will hand here and able to take part in the Bill’s proceedings. the Cabinet Office Minister return to the House to On executive pay, let me remind the Opposition that explain what has gone wrong? And while he is at it, will they did nothing about it for 13 years. By contrast, we he also explain the Government’s policy on freedom of consulted and we will set out in our response the action information? we will take to tackle irresponsible directors—something Before Christmas the Information Commissioner Labour did not do—and we are going to require greater launched his first ever probe into a Government transparency for directors’ pay and salary. We shall give Department, because the Education Secretary and his shareholders a greater say through binding votes, and advisers were communicating using the Education allow them to block unjustified pay-offs for failure. An Secretary’s wife’s e-mail account. Given that the Secretary announcement will be made in due course by the Secretary of State announced this week—not to the House—a of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. I will, of new policy on information technology lessons in schools, course, pursue the matter of fair pay and the Government’s perhaps the Leader of the House could arrange for his response with the Chancellor, and find out the date of colleague to have some IT lessons himself, so that if he the response for which the hon. Lady asked. wants to communicate secretly with his advisers he can There will, of course, be an opportunity for the set up his own e-mail account, and will not need to use Government to consider in this House yesterday’s votes his wife’s. on the Welfare Reform Bill in the other place. I make Finally, Mr Speaker, may I wish you and all Members the simple point that if we do not reverse those amendments a happy new year? Will the Leader of the House join me we will need to make savings from other areas. Of in urging all Ministers to adopt a new year’s resolution course the Government will look carefully at what has to make announcements to this House first? After all, happened in the other place. It is worth making the the ministerial code requires them to do so. point that the amendments that were carried would not have affected the position of those in the support group— Sir George Young: I begin by echoing the hon. Lady’s the most vulnerable—whose entitlement to benefit would good wishes to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House, for a remain unaffected. Nor would the Government’s proposals happy new year. She began in a traditional way by have affected those on means-tested benefits. It is a asking about the Queen’s Speech. I am delighted that question of getting the balance right on the extent to she is looking forward to the next one, which will be which applicants draw on their own resources or on the packed with legislative reform from the coalition resources of taxpayers. Let me remind the hon. Lady of Government, and I hope that she will warmly welcome what the Leader of the Opposition said in his speech of it when it arrives. She will have to contain herself for a 10 January: little longer, however. The date of the Queen’s Speech “in these times, with less money, spending more on one thing will be announced in due course in the usual way. In the means finding the money from somewhere else. When someone meantime, I have given hon. Members some certainty wins, someone else loses.” about the House’s sittings: I have announced them up She might like to remember that when we come to to October this year. By contrast, my predecessor gave debate those amendments. the House two weeks’ notice of the Easter recess in On yesterday’s statements by my right hon. Friend March 2010. The House now has a degree of certainty the Secretary of State for Health, he announced three about when we shall meet, and hon. Members can plan reviews in connection with what went wrong with the their work-life balance accordingly. breast implants, and I know he will want to keep the On Parliament’s work programme, I hope that the House informed as those reviews make progress. hon. Lady is not going to denigrate the work that the I am surprised that the hon. Lady raised the issue of House is doing. This week we had two statements on lobbying. For 13 years the Labour Government did Tuesday, on the referendum in Scotland and on High nothing about lobbying, yet she now criticises us for Speed 2. We had a statement yesterday on breast implants, taking time to come up with the paper on our proposals. as well as two Opposition day debates; I hope that she is The consultation document will be published shortly, not going to say that those were not worth having. Later and there was no breach of the Advisory Committee on today we shall have two important debates arranged by Business Appointments rules by Mr James O’Shaughnessy. the Backbench Business Committee. As I have said before, this place is not a legislative factory. We are not Finally, I have announced an Opposition day on going to make the mistake that the previous Government Monday, and I wonder whether the Opposition are made of introducing too much ill-considered legislation. going to compound the confusion they caused with their last one. On Tuesday their leader talked about The hon. Lady asked why we were having the Committee responsibility regarding the deficit, but just hours later stage of the Local Government Finance Bill on the the Opposition voted against our modest measures for Floor of the House. I have in front of me a list of sorting out the mess in local government finance. On 18 non-constitutional Bills that went to a Committee of the very next day they tabled two motions that, far from the whole House between 1997 and 2010, so let us not reducing the deficit, would have increased it. They have any nonsense about this being unprecedented. opposed every cut and promised to spend an extra Let me give just one example of what the previous £87 billion that we do not have, and they were in denial Government did. The Digital Economy Act 2010— about the mess they created when they were in government. 50 clauses and three schedules—was rushed through the I wonder whether the time has not now come for House during wash-up, without consensus, on the Floor another relaunch by the Opposition. 335 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 336

Several hon. Members rose— Hall—which, admittedly, served its purpose in a way. Can the Leader of the House confirm that before the Mr Speaker: Order. A large number of colleagues are next European summit there will be a proper debate on seeking to catch my eye, and I am keen to accommodate the Floor of the House, as happens in other Parliaments, them. I remind the House, however, that two important so that the Prime Minister can gauge opinion in the debates are to take place under the auspices of the Chamber about his negotiating tactics? Backbench Business Committee, so it is imperative to have brief questions and characteristically brief answers Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s from the Leader of the House. I am sure that a Member concern, but he will know that as a result of the who has served for 28 years will set us a good example: I recommendations of the Wright Committee, the time call Mr David Amess. that the Government had in which to arrange such debates has been transferred to the Backbench Business Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): Paul Gilson, Committee, as has responsibility for finding time for a local fisherman, was recently fined £400,000 for them, and the other debates for which the Government bureaucratic mistakes in relation to his catch. Will the used to find time. It is to that Committee that my hon. Leader of the House allow us a debate on the issues Friend and others should apply, because it now has the surrounding quotas for small fishing vessels? time that the Government used to have. Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s constituent’s concern about what happened. As my Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ hon. Friend will understand, it would not be appropriate Co-op): Is the Leader of the House aware of a growing for me to comment on a particular case. I imagine tendency for Departments to give insubstantial answers that, as with all decisions of a court, this man will have to parliamentary questions in order to conform with an opportunity to appeal against what happened. As I the time scale? For instance, between 27 May 2010 and understand it, the confiscation orders are simply designed 9 March 2011, 53% of answers given by the Department to put anyone who has profited from an illegal catch for Transport were non-substantive, as were 41% of back into the position in which he or she would otherwise those given by the Ministry of Defence and 67% of have been; they are not intended to be a punishment. I those given by the Home Office. The failure to give real hope my hon. Friend will understand the constraints on answers is a continuing problem, and I hope that the Ministers when it comes to commenting on individual Leader of the House will take it up with Departments cases. in order to ensure that Members receive proper responses to their questions. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Would it not be more appropriate for Ministers to give serious Sir George Young: The hon. Lady is right: the House consideration to the amendments that were carried is entitled to prompt and informative answers from yesterday in the House of Lords? Perhaps we could Ministers in response to written questions. I do not have a statement before the normal parliamentary procedure know whether she had an opportunity to raise the issue becomes involved. Does the Leader of the House not during the Transport questions session that has just agree that to take action against cancer, bone and stroke ended, but, as Leader of the House, I do take steps to patients is totally unacceptable? Indeed, it is sick. I ensure that my colleagues answer questions promptly. I heard the Minister of State, Department for Work and believe I am right in saying that we publish statistics Pensions, the right hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell each year on the performance of Departments, and I (Chris Grayling) on the radio today trying to justify am always prepared to take up specific cases on behalf what has occurred, but I hope that the Cabinet will give of Members. further consideration to the matter. What has been agreed to by the House of Lords should be agreed to by Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): the Government. The Leader of the House has just announced that the first draft orders resulting from the Public Bodies Act 2011 Sir George Young: As I said to the hon. Member for will be considered next week. You will recall, Mr Speaker, Wallasey (Ms Eagle), the Government will give serious the exchange that we had on a point of order relating to consideration to the votes that took place in the other this matter before the House rose for the Christmas place yesterday. We have asked Professor Harrington to recess. Is the Leader of the House now able to confirm work with Macmillan to ensure that the work-related that the Select Committees concerned will be given assessments are appropriate, although it should be borne notice before the orders are laid on the Floor of the in mind that the worst cancer cases would be in support House, and that a full 60 days will be allowed for groups and would therefore not be affected. Government consideration of each order by each Select Committee? amendments tabled to the Bill yesterday would have Will he also make good the promise of a draft water Bill protected those whose condition subsequently deteriorated. before prorogation? Of course we will consider the matter seriously, but as I have said, if we do not make savings by means of that Sir George Young: I will pass on the last question, part of the Bill, we may have to seek compensatory because I am not conscious of having personally given savings elsewhere. such a commitment. As for the serious issues raised by my hon. Friend in connection with the Public Bodies Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): Although Act, I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House—who, it is good that there is less legislation pouring through I believe, will be handling the debate next Thursday—will the House of Commons, we still do not have enough be able to respond to them, and to inform her of the time to debate issues on great occasions. For instance, progress that we are making in moving to a new regime before the Prime Minister went off to the last European for consideration of the draft orders that follow from summit, all that we had was a little debate in Westminster the legislation. 337 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 338

Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Leader of the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): A seven-year-old House may not want the Chamber to be seen as a boy in my constituency called Zac has a very rare cancer “legislative factory”, but nor should it be seen as just a called neuroblastoma. As a result of help from the political wii game in which many points are scored but former Labour Health Minister Ann Keen and my local nothing substantial is achieved. Once the session of primary care trust, treatment became available in Germany keepy-uppy in which the Chamber is currently engaged and was paid for by the NHS. Recently Zac needed has ended, will it be able to give commensurate consideration another life-saving operation. It was decided that the to the important issues in the Welfare Reform Bill that operation should be carried out by the NHS in this are being subjected to serious deliberation and amendment country, but unfortunately it was cancelled twice. In in the other place? desperation, Zac’s mother took him to Germany, where he had the operation yesterday. May we have a statement Sir George Young: I hope the hon. Gentleman will from the Secretary of State for Health next week, telling accept that the coalition Government have sought to be us what went wrong in this country and whether the more generous than the last Government in allocating parents’ costs will be reimbursed? time for their programme to be dealt with on the Floor of the House. We have allowed two, and in one case Sir George Young: I am sure the whole House hopes three, days for the Report stages of important Bills, and that Zac makes a good recovery from the operation that we intend to maintain our good record of giving the took place yesterday, and I will raise the matter with my House adequate time in which to consider legislation. right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health. As That commitment also extends to important amendments my hon. Friend knows, we have made more resources that have been passed in another place. available to the NHS year on year, and responsibility for funding the costs of transport from this country to Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con): I personally Germany would normally lie with the local primary welcome the fact that, unlike their predecessor, the care trust. However, I will try to establish whether my present Government are providing the House with adequate right hon. Friend the Secretary of State can play a role time in which to scrutinise legislation properly. More is in ensuring that the parents can maintain suitable contact not necessarily better. with their son. No doubt my right hon. Friend, as an early riser, listens to “Farming Today”, and will therefore know Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): that a significant number of Europe-wide farm animal I wish to ask the Leader of the House a question about welfare issues are the responsibility of Ministers in the his own remit. When Labour was in power and I was House of Commons. Will he find Government time for chairing the European Scrutiny Committee, he seemed a general debate on those issues in the Chamber, so that to support the idea of reinstating permanent membership they too can be considered properly? of the General Committees that debate EU issues sent to them by the European Scrutiny Committee. I have Sir George Young: My hon. Friend will have heard asked him several times—and the hon. Member for me announce two debates on Europe-related matters on Stone (Mr Cash) has supported my request through the the Floor of the House arising from consideration by Committee—for the matter to be brought before the the European Scrutiny Committee. I will take his suggestion House. He has had plenty of time to arrange it, and on board, but he may wish to ask the Backbench there is plenty of room in the timetable. When will Business Committee for a more general debate. permanent membership be reinstated, so that people can learn properly about European business in General Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): Committees? At the beginning of this month the Government’s new web application system for the blue badge came on line. Sir George Young: I commend the hon. Gentleman’s Ministers said that it would save money and lead to work on that issue. I would like to pursue the discussion easier renewals, but it has been riddled with technical through the usual channels, and then come back to him. problems. Applications have been delayed or sent to the wrong place, which has caused chaos and backlogs, and councils have been unable to deal with the problem Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Given the increasing because the system is under the auspices of an IT number of schools offering A-levels, there is an increasing contractor for which the Department for Transport is anomaly with VAT, in that schools do not pay it but responsible. May we have a urgent statement from the sixth-form colleges do. The Treasury has rejected requests Government on what they are doing to sort out this from the Sixth Form Colleges Forum and others to mess—which has been caused by their own rectify that. With VAT standing at 20%, may we have a mismanagement—so that those who need blue badges debate to explore ways to equalise the situation and be can secure them as soon as possible? fairer to sixth-form colleges?

Sir George Young: The hon. Lady may have had an Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s opportunity to raise precisely that issue with my right concern. There will be an opportunity on Monday to hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport during raise this issue with the Secretary of State for Education. Transport questions earlier. [Interruption.] As she was For now, I think the appropriate answer to my hon. unable to do so, however, I will raise it with my right Friend is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in the hon. Friend, and will ensure that I obtain a response. It process of drawing up his Budget, the date of which has is in everyone’s interest for those who are entitled to been announced, and I will take her request as a bid for blue badges to be able to gain access to them without him to consider that matter as part of his broader too much hassle. Budget considerations. 339 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 340

Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): May we have an I remind the Leader of the House that in this year of urgent debate on the number of roads that are not the jubilee and the Olympics there are diverse regions in brought up to adoptable standard by developers? This our country, and many people in Yorkshire and Humber is a nationwide problem. There are roads in my and the north-east and north-west get the feeling that constituency that have been awaiting adoption for everything is happening either in London and the south-east 10 years, and Taylor Wimpey is refusing to engage with or in Scotland? Is it not about time that we looked at the the local authority. We must debate this issue, especially Cinderella regions that get less investment, less focus if we are going to increase housing development in this and, now, less leadership? country.

Sir George Young: Many parts of the country are Sir George Young: I suspect that many other Members benefiting from the construction work on the Olympic have also encountered precisely that problem, where stadium in London; the benefits go far wider than just residents living in recently developed estates find that the south-east. I also hope the hon. Gentleman will the roads are still in the ownership of the developer, that recognise that we have introduced measures to help the they are not up to a standard that the local authority regions, such as the regional economic growth fund and will take over, and that the developer will not bring concessions on national insurance to certain parts of them up to the appropriate standard. I will contact my the country, as well as measures to help those parts of colleagues at the Department for Communities and the country that are worst hit by unemployment. I do Local Government to see if there are any steps that the not agree that the leadership in our country is entirely Government need to take to ensure private developers confined to London and the south-east as there are honour their obligations, often under section 106, so many parts of the country with first-class leadership, that the residents on such estates have roads of a quality and it is up to Members of Parliament who represent to which they are entitled. the regions to do what the hon. Gentleman has done: stand up in this House and fight for the areas they Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): The Secretary represent. of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs initially promised to publish in 2010 a report on the Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): Last humaneness and effective use of snaring and then, in year, all in South Staffordshire celebrated the fantastic response to a written parliamentary question, said she news that Jaguar Land Rover was going to build a new would release the report by the end of last year. We have engine plant in my constituency, in one of the Government’s still not had the report, however, which is preventing new enterprise zones. May we have a debate on how we debate on this issue not only in this place, but in the might promote more manufacturing in the west midlands, Public Petitions Committee of the Scottish Parliament. so we can build on that success? While the Government are in an enabling mood in respect of Scotland, please will the Leader of the House Sir George Young: I am delighted to hear of the good press for the report to be published? news in my hon. Friend’s constituency, and he reminds the House that the 24 new enterprise zones will come on Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Lady’s stream in April. They will bring a range of benefits, concern. There will be an opportunity next Thursday to including access to capital allowances, business rate ask the Secretary of State about that report. I will make relief and new superfast broadband. That is a part of sure that Ministers in that Department are aware of the our strategy of rebalancing the economy by encouraging hon. Lady’s concern and let them know that there is a manufacturing and thereby getting a more sustainable strong likelihood that they will be asked about that foundation for the growth in employment that we all issue in a week’s time. want.

Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): At a recent Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): May we have a meeting of the Sustainable Business Forum, it became debate on abortion term limits? Does the Leader of the clear that UK Trade & Investment had no strategy for House believe it is right that babies in this country are green economic development under the local enterprise still being aborted because they have cleft palates or partnerships. Indeed, UKTI was not even aware that club feet? eight of the partnerships have been designated specifically for green economic development, and its website is still Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s showing Vestas as one of the key British flagship companies concern, but I have to be frank with him: the Government in green economic development. May we have a debate do not have plans to introduce legislation to reform the in Government time about the Government’s strategy law on abortion. The issue was debated at some length for green economic growth in this country? in the previous Parliament. However, if he wants a debate on it, he may like to approach the Backbench Sir George Young: The Government are indeed Business Committee, because I appreciate that strong committed to green economic growth, and a number of views are held on both sides of the argument. the measures taken by the Department of Energy and Climate Change have been designed precisely to ensure Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): As the Leader of that. I will take up the specific issue the hon. Gentleman the House is having so much trouble filling parliamentary raises about UKTI to see if anything needs to be done time, why has he not been able to allow the Prime there, and I shall draw his point to the attention of my Minister to fulfil his promise of having a debate and a ministerial colleagues at both DECC and the Department vote on fox hunting? Might that be because the Leader for Business, Innovation and Skills. of the House is not looking very hard for that time? 341 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 342

Sir George Young: I suspect that if the first thing that station exclusion policy of inspectors such as Frank the coalition Government had done was have a debate Donnelly, who has made sure that officers are out on fox hunting, the hon. Gentleman would have questioned catching criminals and not inside police stations. our priorities. The Government have a legislative programme which is before the House, and we believe that is the Sir George Young: I commend the work of Inspector appropriate priority for the House. There are three and Frank Donnelly, who has shown that, within the challenging a half years to go in this Parliament, and in due course financial settlement that police authorities have had to that section of the coalition agreement will be honoured. live with, it is possible to reduce crime by getting officers out of the station and on to the streets. I was Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): delighted to hear of the reduction in crime in my hon. At Health questions this week, I asked about reports Friend’s constituency, and I hope the example of Frank that advertisements for personal injury lawyers had Donnelly will be copied elsewhere. started appearing in hospital accident and emergency departments. The Minister who answered rightly said Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The business that the that it was not appropriate for such material to appear Leader of the House announced was pretty threadbare, in NHS hospitals. However, the Compensation Act 2006, and although I agree with him that we do not necessarily introduced by the previous Labour Government, states want to be a legislation factory, I have a solution for that hospitals are authorised to deal with companies him. There are 101 private Members’ Bills waiting for under agreement, so may we have an urgent debate time and only two days when they could possibly be about the unwelcome consequences of that Act, which I debated before Prorogation, when they all lapse. Some believe has added to the compensation culture in this of them are on really important things such as adoption, country? firearms, daylight saving, metal theft, the registration of lobbyists—that would solve the problem there. Why Sir George Young: I am disturbed to hear that such does the Leader of the House therefore not give up advertisements are going up in hospitals in our country. some of the days he is using on footling business and As my hon. Friend says, unauthorised marketing by allocate them to private Members’ Bills, which lots of claims management companies is already prohibited Members on the Government Back Benches would without the approval of the management of the facility love? [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] or the building, and that ban has forced a number of claims companies to modify how they advertise their Sir George Young: That is a very populist demand services. To answer my hon. Friend’s specific question, a which I know finds a lot of support on the Back Command Paper on post-legislative scrutiny of the Act Benches. I gently remind the hon. Gentleman that there he mentions has been laid in Parliament today, and are two Houses of Parliament and legislation has to there is a related written ministerial statement, which he pass through both. There is no point in stacking up may like to look at. more and more Bills in this House if the other House has not got the time to process them. He will know that Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Another dire statistic the Welfare Reform Bill, the Legal Aid, Sentencing and revealed this week that there are 210,000 households in Punishment of Offenders Bill, the Health and Social the north-east in which no one is working. That, coupled Care Bill and the Scotland Bill are all awaiting consideration with the highest unemployment, fuel poverty and child in another place, and they have to complete their passage poverty rates in the country, does not bode well for the through the House before the end of the Session. There people of the north-east. Will the Leader of the House is no merit at all in adding to the queue in the way the make time for a debate to discuss the future for the hon. Gentleman has suggested. people of the north-east and the north-east economy? Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Can the Leader Sir George Young: Of course the Government are of the House find time for a statement that could give concerned about the high level of unemployment in the an answer to the North Lincolnshire question? The hon. Gentleman’s constituency and the north-east in question relates, of course, to the Scottish referendum general. To put this in context, the Office for Budget and why a Scot working in North Lincolnshire for a few Responsibility expects that between 2011 and 2017 total years will be denied a vote on the future of his country, employment will increase by about 1 million, with a whereas someone from North Lincolnshire working for 1.7 million rise in private sector employment offsetting a few years in Scotland will have the opportunity of a a total reduction in general government employment of vote. about 710,000. As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have introduced the Work programme, the UK’s biggest Sir George Young: I suspect that the North Lincolnshire ever single employment support programme. We are question could be posed for almost any part of the also introducing universal credit, which will improve country. My hon. Friend will know that the provisional the incentives to get back into work, and there is extra decision is to use the franchise for the Scottish Parliament funding on apprenticeships and other such activities. I as the basis for any referendum, but there will be hope that will help reduce unemployment in the hon. adequate opportunities in the debate that was launched Gentleman’s constituency. on Tuesday by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to discuss the broader issues surrounding Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Could the referendum. It would make sense for the House to we have a debate on value for money and effectiveness reflect at some point on the announcement made on in local policing, so that other police forces can learn Tuesday, and that may provide an opportunity for my from the example of Bedfordshire police, which has just hon. Friend to pose his question; and—who knows?—he cut crime by 67%? We could learn about the police may get an answer to it at the end of that debate. 343 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 344

David Wright (Telford) (Lab): Could we have a statement will be possible to take further measures to address from a Health Minister about the introduction of the what the hon. Gentleman calls the tale of two countries. 111 service? There is real concern in Telford that the However, the US has not been without its problems: I introduction of the 111 service might severely damage think I am right in saying that growth in the last quarter our excellent out-of-hours GP service, specifically in this country was higher than in the US. consultations and out-of-hours cover. Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Can we have a Sir George Young: There was an opportunity to ask debate on the Government’s energy policy in light of Health Ministers questions on Tuesday, but I will draw the Which? report stating that more than 4 million my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary’s attention to consumers were dissatisfied with their energy company, the concern that the hon. Gentleman has expressed and in light of the Centre for Policy Studies report about the 111 scheme’s impact on services and ask him arguing that the introduction of the carbon floor price to write to the hon. Gentleman. in 2013 will damage efforts to decarbonise the UK’s electricity supply? Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): Over 80% of people in employment in my constituency are Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s employed in the private sector, many of them in small concern. Some of the issues he raises are a matter for businesses. Those businesses should be given the support Ofgem, with which the Government are working, for they need to enable them to grow and to create more example, to have greater transparency on tariffs and to jobs, so that we can get more people working in the make it easier for consumers to switch from one to private sector. Could the Leader of the House find time another. We have taken some steps already—we plan for a debate on that matter and the support the Government more—to give Ofgem more teeth in its transactions could give? with electricity suppliers. I hope my hon. Friend will welcome yesterday’s and today’s announcements by two Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right—we do major companies of tariff reductions, and that that look to the small and medium-sized enterprises to be will take some of the pressure off the consumers he part of the dynamo for growth and reducing referred to. unemployment. She will know that we have doubled small business rate relief for two and a half years. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Given that Originally, we announced a doubling of that relief for the Prime Minister guaranteed that rail fares would not one year, and that was extended in the 2011 Budget, and increase by more than 1% above inflation, and that again in the autumn statement for a further six months many are in fact increasing by up to 11%, can we have a from October 2012. There are also other initiatives, statement or debate on the Government’s failure to such as cutting red tape and the loan guarantee scheme. control rail prices—and on the Prime Minister’s ability I hope that all those will be of assistance to SMEs. We not to keep his promises? all have a role to play in drawing to the attention of SMEs in our constituencies the various schemes the Sir George Young: I am not sure where the hon. Government have made available to assist them. Gentleman was yesterday, but I think we had a debate on rail fares. We have already had half a day’s debate, Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): The Leader of and I remind him that in 2009, under the regime of the the House mentioned rebalancing the economy. Data previous Government, rail fares were allowed to go up from the US suggest that its manufacturing sector is by 11%. expanding strongly and unemployment is at a three-year low. By way of contrast, British manufacturing has Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): The Mary Portas suffered the sharpest fall in activity since 2009, review, which has been endorsed by the Government unemployment here is at an 18-year high, and yesterday’s and the Opposition, highlighted the burden that parking trade figures showed that exports to countries outside charges place on our high streets. Will the Leader of the the EU have declined. Given that next month marks the House grant a debate on why Enfield’s Labour council 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Dickens, can has persisted with massive increases in parking charges, we have a debate on a tale of two economies, so that this including the introduction of Sunday charges, against House can debate with Dickensian eloquence why the the wishes of shopkeepers and churchgoers and despite US seems to be pulling out of the mess but Britain vociferous opposition from the Enfield Independent and seems to be going ever further into it? The Enfield Advertiser?

Sir George Young: I point out to the hon. Gentleman Sir George Young: I welcome my hon. Friend’s role as that the decline in the manufacturing industry did not a champion of businesses in his constituency, particularly begin in 2009; there had already been a fairly substantial of the retail sector. He will know that I announced a reduction in employment in manufacturing. One of the debate next week on the Mary Portas review, chosen by things we are seeking to do is to rebalance the economy, the Backbench Business Committee. I hope that will be and the intervention a few moments ago from my hon. an opportunity for him to intervene at slightly greater Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Gavin length than he was able to today. Williamson) showed the success we are having in promoting, for example, car manufacturing. Also, other sectors of Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Could we have a the economy have been doing better, such as debate on hospital parking charges? The hospital in my pharmaceuticals. However, the hon. Gentleman is right: constituency has introduced big rises and has recently we want to emphasise growth. My right hon. Friend the started charging for disabled parking. Sadly, it is not Chancellor will be drawing up his Budget, and I hope it alone in doing so. 345 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 346

Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Lady’s Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): Darlington concern. That is primarily a matter for the trust that football club is 128 years old and, as the Leader of the runs the hospital she referred to. Often, the income House knows, it is the club that gave the world’s first from car parking helps to sustain a higher level of black professional footballer, Arthur Wharton, his big service than would otherwise be the case. However, the break. Sadly, despite the best efforts of local businesses, Government have devolved this matter to local trusts, The Northern Echo and the local council, the club is in and I am sure she will want to pursue the issue with the administration and has days, if not hours, before liquidation. chief executive of her local trust. When can we have a debate on the support that is available to help historic clubs such as Darlington? Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): The Leader of the House will doubtless be as alarmed as I am to read Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear of the problems reports about the continued widening of the division that confront the hon. Lady’s local football club. The between the civilian Government and the military in the statue of the footballer to whom she refers was made by nuclear-armed state of Pakistan. May we have an urgent a sculptor in my constituency, which is why I am aware statement from the Foreign Secretary outlining the potential of the case. I do not wish to raise her hopes, but I will implications for our country of that country’s continued draw her concern to the attention of my right hon. instability? Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport to see whether there is any role for the Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s Government to play in enabling the club to continue. concern. The Foreign Secretary will be at this Dispatch Box on Tuesday, when my hon. Friend will have an Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): opportunity to question him. A strong, stable constitutional May we have a debate on the likely effectiveness of the democracy is in Pakistan’s interests, but I take on board ban on sow stalls in the European Union from 1 January the point that my hon. Friend has just made. 2013, given that there is every indication that several countries will not be compliant? The UK rightly Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): May I ask the Leader of implemented the ban from 1999, but it has halved the the House for an urgent statement to clarify the sow herd. Clearly, more needs to be done in Europe to Government’s plans for increasing the number of private promote animal welfare and in Britain to ensure that patients in NHS foundation trust hospitals? On Tuesday, our industry is protected. the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) said that Sir George Young: This country has always set high “we are not changing the situation”—[Official Report, 10 January standards in animal welfare. I understand my hon. 2012; Vol. 538, c. 14.] Friend’s concern that some of our competitor countries but of course the Health and Social Care Bill removes may not be implementing the new measures as quickly the private patient cap and the Government’s impact as they should, and I can tell him that we will be taking assessment assumes the inclusion of action to drive compliance by the slower implementers. As he says, the EU has banned sow stalls, but farmers in “additional…overseas private patients… and patients who would other member states are not implementing the measures have otherwise been treated on the NHS”, as fast as farmers in this country, and I will draw his so how can that statement be true? concern to the attention of the relevant Minister.

Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): Health and Social Care Bill is being considered in Following the votes in the other place on the Welfare another place; we have just had the completion of Reform Bill, may we have a debate in this House about 15 days in Committee and a number of days have been the effect that the benefit changes will have on people allocated for Report. I have no doubt that the specific who received contaminated blood products through issue he mentions will be raised during the remaining treatment in the NHS and the fact that they will lose the stages of that Bill, and if the Bill comes back, there will very limited benefits that they are entitled to with the be an opportunity for him to raise the matter again in changes that the Government are introducing? this House. In the meantime, I will draw his question to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Sir George Young: The Welfare Reform Bill will of State. course be returning to this House when it has completed its consideration in another place. Depending on any Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): From this changes made to that Bill, hon. Members may have an week, credit unions enjoy important new freedoms to opportunity to raise that matter. The hon. Lady attended help them develop and grow. May we have a debate on a meeting with the relevant Minister, along with myself financial inclusion, affordable credit and the important and others. I will ask the Under-Secretary of State for role that credit unions play? Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) to refresh us both on the steps being Sir George Young: My hon. Friend’s suggestion is taken as a result of that meeting, at which we met those very timely in view of the reports over the Christmas who have suffered as a result of contaminated blood holidays of the less scrupulous operators in that field, and believe that they are getting a raw deal. and he reminds the House of the role of credit unions. I cannot promise such a debate, but I know that Members Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Given the on both sides of the House have expressed an interest in difficulties that the Leader of the House has in filling the subject, and the Backbench Business Committee parliamentary time, given that the Backbench Business may wish to add it to its list of requests. Committee always arranges interesting, entertaining and 347 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 348 well attended debates on topical issues that Members Sir George Young: I assume that that is a matter for and the country want discussed, and given the large my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, number of requests that he has referred to that Committee Innovation and Skills. If that is the case, I will draw the today, has he given any consideration to having a Backbench matter to his attention and see whether there is a role to Business week, when all the business of that week can play in making sure that any funds that could be used be determined by that Committee? for investment in the west midlands are unlocked.

Sir George Young: My hon. Friend puts forward an Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Two of the interesting proposition. What we have tried to do is step greatest challenges facing us are energy costs, both to up the number of days that we have made available to households and to business, and the need to reduce the the Backbench Business Committee; it has a debate impact of climate change. May we have an early debate later today and one next Tuesday, and I announced about the progress being made towards the introduction another debate for the following week. I am not quite of the green deal? sure that it would make sense to block out a whole week and allocate all of it to the Backbench Business Committee. Sir George Young: I cannot promise an early debate on the introduction of the green deal. I believe that just Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East before Christmas my right hon. Friend the Secretary of Cleveland) (Lab): Next Thursday, a by-election will be State for Energy and Climate Change made a statement held in Redcar and Cleveland borough council’s Newcomen to give us an update on the progress that we were ward. The Liberal Democrat candidate has made openly making towards our targets. I imagine that such statements Islamophobic statements on his Facebook site, yet he will be repeated at 12 month intervals. My hon. Friend remains the candidate, despite Liberal Democrat “zero might wish to approach the Backbench Business Committee tolerance”to such instances of prejudice and discrimination. to see whether it can find time for such a debate, so that The Muslim Council of Britain is concerned about this, we can outline the progress we are making on tackling as are the Coexistence Trust and HOPE not hate. Does climate change. the Leader of the House believe there is any place in a mainstream democratic political party, especially one Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): As we that is in government, for someone, such as Newcomen’s rebalance the economy towards business growth and Lib Dem candidate, who holds such clearly expressed entrepreneurship, may we have a debate on employer- Islamophobic views? supported child care vouchers, because at the moment the only people who cannot access such support are the Sir George Young: I am reluctant to get drawn into a self-employed? by-election spat. If any criminal offence has been committed, it would be appropriate to refer it to the Sir George Young: The vouchers are of great help; police. My only comment is that if a Conservative they help nearly 500,000 people balance their commitments candidate is standing, I hope that everyone will support to their family with their work. My right hon. Friend him or her. the Chancellor will be considering his Budget and I will pass on my hon. Friend’s suggestion that the scheme Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): There has should be extended to include the self-employed. been a great deal of debate recently about public sector pensions, but may we have a debate about the state Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con): Earlier pension, so that we can discuss the actions that the this week, I was fortunate enough to meet young people Government are taking to improve the lot of state in my constituency at our local youth forum. Their pensioners and ensure that they never again suffer the engagement in and passion about improving our community indignity of the miserly 75p rise they got from Labour? were excellent to see and showed their great potential to make a difference. Will the Leader of the House give Sir George Young: We would welcome such a debate. Government time for a debate on how to get more This year, pensioners will see the biggest cash rise they young people involved in politics and make our institutions have ever seen, and under our triple lock the state as relevant to them as possible? pension will always be increased, year on year, in line with average earnings, prices or 2.5%, whichever is the Sir George Young: I commend my hon. Friend for highest. This year’s increase of more than £5 a week what he has done. It is up to every Member of Parliament contrasts, as my hon. Friend has just reminded us, with to engage with young people in their constituencies and the 75p that the Labour Government gave pensioners to encourage them to take part in the political process in 1999. in the way he has suggested. I was encouraged, as I know were you, Mr Speaker, and the hon. Member for Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): The west midlands Wallasey (Ms Eagle), by the quality of the debate when was hit hardest during the downturn and is taking the Youth Parliament met here a few weeks ago and by longest to recover, so it beggars belief that £185 million the representatives’ commitment to the political process. of European regional development fund money—designed I hope that some of them will in due course sit on these to boost the economy, attract investment and create green Benches. employment—that has been earmarked for the west midlands is lying idle, along with £1.1 billion nationally. Several hon. Members rose— Will the Leader of the House get the Minister responsible for this shambles to come to the House of Commons to Mr Speaker: Order. There is extreme pressure on explain to us why this money is not being spent in the time, as I mentioned earlier, and the level of interest in regions where it is needed? the first of the two Backbench Business Committee 349 Business of the House12 JANUARY 2012 Business of the House 350

[Mr Speaker] solution; it requires legislation, however, so, will the Leader of the House tell me and my constituents when debates has necessitated the imposition of a very tight that legislation will be brought forward? time limit. I am happy to take remaining colleagues on the explicit condition that we have single-sentence questions, Hon. Members: Four sentences! led by Mr Julian Smith.

Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): May we Stephen Metcalfe: They were commas. have a debate to support Ofcom’s excellent decision this morning to extend the coverage obligations on the spectrum auction for 4G from 95% to 98%, which will Sir George Young: We have just had Transport questions, make a massive difference to rural areas in Britain? when my hon. Friend might have had an opportunity to raise that matter. It would be up to my right hon. Friend Sir George Young: I would like to promise such a the Secretary of State for Transport to propose such a debate, but I would be misleading my hon. Friend if I piece of legislation and it would have to take its place in said yes. I hope that he will go along at 1 o’clock on what, I have to tell my hon. Friend, is a rather long Tuesday to the salon chaired by the hon. Member for queue. North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) and put in a bid for a debate on this important issue. Mr Speaker: Colleagues have quirky ideas about commas and semi-colons; that is immediately apparent. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Towards the end of last year, I was pleased to be able to help launch the Royal College of Midwives’ “State of Maternity Services” Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): Men, report. There has been an increase in the number of too, are victims of domestic violence, so may we have a midwives, but there has also an increase in the number debate about the Government’s recent announcement of births, so I would therefore be grateful if consideration of new money that is available to help voluntary sector could be given to holding a debate on the future of organisations that provide vital support to those victims? maternity services. Sir George Young: That delivery took a little longer Sir George Young: I commend my hon. Friend for than Mr Speaker implied. My hon. Friend is a patron of drawing attention to the fact that not just women are the Royal College of Midwives and I commend him on victims of domestic violence. I cannot promise such a his interest. The Government are committed to high-quality debate, but I refer her to the hon. Member for North perinatal and antenatal care: hundreds more midwives East Derbyshire and the Backbench Business Committee. are in service now than in 2010 and a record number are in training. I hope that my hon. Friend is reassured by Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Harrow clinical that basic information. commissioning group has been informed by NHS London that it is not economically viable as a unit under the Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Many businesses Government’s reforms, and that it must be replaced and in Pendle have welcomed the reduction in the rate of join Brent, Harrow, Ealing, Hillingdon, Hounslow, corporation tax, but many are still struggling with an Kensington and Chelsea, Westminster and Hammersmith overtly complex tax system. May we therefore have a and Fulham. May we have a debate on the implementation debate on tax simplification? of the Government’s NHS reforms? Sir George Young: I very much hope that the Chancellor will take on board what my hon. Friend has said. We Sir George Young: The Government are encouraging are consulting on integrating the operation of income group practices to band together to form clinical tax and national insurance contributions, but I am sure commissioning groups, but there is no central direction that that would be a step in the right direction. about how they should be configured. In the first instance, I suggest that my hon. Friend contacts NHS North Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) West London and shares his concern to see whether (Con): For many years, my constituents in south Essex there could be a better configuration of local practices have suffered intolerable delays at the Dartford crossing. that perhaps covered a slightly smaller area than the My hon. Friend the roads Minister has an innovative one that is envisaged. 351 12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 352

heavily weighted in favour of the pub company. I and Backbench Business others will be addressing some of the issues that arise from that.

[UN-ALLOTTED DAY] Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): I would be grateful if the hon. Gentleman clarified one small point Pub Companies that is missing from the motion: namely, that he is referring to large pub companies that own large numbers [Relevant documents: The Second Report from the Trade of pubs and that family-owned brewing companies that and Industry Committee, Session 2004-05, Pub Companies, own fewer than 500 pubs, such as Wadworth and Arkells HC 128; the Fourth Special Report from the Trade and in my constituency, are specifically excluded from the Industry Committee, Session 2004-05, Pub Companies: statutory regulation for which he is calling. Government Response to the Committee’s Second Report on Pub Companies, HC 434; the Seventh Report from the Mr Bailey: Yes. Let me make it clear that I am Business and Enterprise Committee, Session 2008-09, basically speaking about the Select Committee reports, Pub Companies, HC 26; the Third Special Report from which were about pub companies, but I recognise that the Business and Enterprise Committee, Session 2008-09, there is an issue with breweries and their tenancies that Pub Companies, HC 798; the Fifth Report from the in some cases might be relevant to this discussion. I Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, Session 2009-10, know that individual Members will draw the necessary Pub Companies: follow-up, HC 138; the Eighth Report distinctions in the debate and I hope to allay any fears from the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, they might have. Session 2009-10, Pub Companies: follow-up: Government Response to the Committee’s Fifth Report, HC 503; the Tenth Report from the Business, Innovation and Skills Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Will my hon. Committee, Pub Companies, HC 1369, and the Government Friend give way? response, Cm 8222; and Oral evidence taken before the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee on 6 December Mr Bailey: I shall take one more intervention. 2011, HC 1690-i.] Kevin Brennan: Towards the latter end of the previous Parliament, when I, as a Minister, and my right hon. 12.35 pm Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) did a lot of work on this subject, there seemed Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op): to be a great deal of consensus between the then Select I beg to move, Committee and the then Opposition parties that such a That this House believes that the Department for Business, measure was necessary. Is my hon. Friend surprised that Innovation and Skills’ proposals for reform of the pub industry fall short of the undertaking given to the Business, Innovation we have reached a stage in this Parliament where we and Skills Committee in July 2010 and that only a statutory code have to debate this matter because action has not been of practice which includes a free-of-tie option with an open taken? market rent review and an independent adjudicator will resolve the contractual problems between the pub companies and their Mr Bailey: The answer is that I am absolutely astonished lessees; and calls on the Government to commission a review of and I shall address that point. self-regulation of the pub industry in the Autumn of 2012 to be conducted by an independent body approved by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con) rose— I thank the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to allocate time for this very important debate. It might not be immediately obvious, but the motion addresses Mr Bailey: I need to make a little progress, as I am issues that are vital to some of the poorest people in our conscious that many people want to speak. If I have community—publicans, many of whom work very long time, I shall take further interventions. hours and earn less than £15,000 a year. It is hardly For the reasons I have outlined, the BIS Committee surprising that many of them just give up and go and its predecessor have held no fewer than four inquiries elsewhere, and the consequences are visible up and into the issues surrounding the trade. The previous down the country as pubs close day after day. The report in 2010 under the chairmanship of the hon. consequences hit not just publicans but the local Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff) gave the communities they serve. Increasingly, rural villages are industry a year to get its house in order or have statutory without a village pub and without the social hub and legislation. That was agreed by the Labour Minister in activity concentrated in that pub. That adds to the sense 2010. Subsequently, after the general election, when the of alienation. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills Even in my local area, where 10 years ago there were was asked whether he would uphold the previous four pubs within a mile, only one is left. I know that Government’s position, he confirmed he would. experience is shared by Members up and down the The current BIS Committee held an inquiry in 2011 country. There is obviously something profoundly wrong and came to the unanimous conclusion that pub companies in the industry. Some of it is about social changes, but, had not met the requirements of the previous Committee’s to go to the heart of the problem, a huge volume of recommendations and that a statutory code with an evidence now shows that the business model governing independent adjudicator should be introduced. It also the relationship between pub licensees and the pub recommended that any code should have within it the companies that own the pubs is crucial. The code of option for a publican either to be tied to the pub practice that governs the relationship between them is company or to be free of such a tie and instead pay a 353 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 354

[Mr Bailey] self-regulated one is that under a self-regulated code if a pub should be sold by the landlord to another company rent to the pub company, which would be determined that was not a member of the said trade association, the by a general open market review by a suitably qualified tenant would have no rights, as currently provided assessor. under the code, whereas under a statutory code they The Government’s response to the Committee’s would have rights? recommendations has been totally inadequate. The Minister’s pledge fails to meet the aspirations of virtually Mr Bailey: Yes, this is a very important distinction all sections of the industry apart from those of the pub and I know that the issue exercises representatives of companies and reneges on the pledge given previously the licensees. by a Minister. In the time available, I cannot deal with every point of variance between the recommendations Dr Murrison: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of the Government and those of the Committee, but I know that many of the issues will be teased out in Mr Bailey: I will take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention subsequent speeches. and then I must press on.

Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): Will the Dr Murrison: The hon. Gentleman is being very hon. Gentleman give way? generous. How does he believe the motion might be improved or amended to dispel the concerns expressed Mr Bailey: I will take this intervention because I by family brewers of the sort referred to by my hon. know the hon. Gentleman has been heavily involved in Friend the Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) that this issue. they would be affected by a statutory code when that is Greg Mulholland: I thank the hon. Gentleman for not the case? giving way and I pay tribute to his work and that of the Committee. He mentions the clear commitments given Mr Bailey: I am not amending the motion, but I by Ministers. Is he aware of the e-mail from the office of assure the hon. Gentleman that in the Select Committee’s the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) to consideration of any panel to assess the workings of the Justice for Licensees on 13 April 2010, saying: voluntary code the Committee would make the panel “The Conservative Party support the idea that should the well aware of this issue. industry fail to deliver self-regulation by June 2011, the Government The third issue is the weakness of the framework . . . should end up consulting on putting the Code of Practice on a code. It is fair to say that the Government acknowledge statutory basis”? that the existing framework code is weak, even though they are making it legally binding, but to date all the Mr Bailey: No, I was not aware of that e-mail, but I proposals for strengthening it seem to have come—surprise, am sure it will illuminate subsequent discussions. surprise—from the British Beer and Pub Association. I I cannot deal with every issue that has arisen, but it is cannot think of anything more likely to destroy confidence possible to summarise some of the key issues, the first within the wider industry and among publicans than a of which is the statutory code of conduct and an code that has been supposedly strengthened on the adjudicator. Instead of doing as the Select Committee advice of the BBPA. recommended and introducing a statutory code, determined after consultation with all sections of the industry, the John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I am Government have said they will make the existing codes very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I between pub companies and their licensees legally binding. congratulate him and the Committee on the report. That might sound like a very subtle distinction, but Does he think that the code will help Mr Wild, who most pub companies believe that their existing contracts runs a very popular pub in Rotherham, whose business with their licensees are legally binding anyway. This is being throttled by the terms of his tenancy? He tried approach simply legalises and regularises a situation to arrange with Enterprise Inns to buy his cask ales free that is the source of the problem in the first place, and of tie. He was told it would be £10,000 to £15,000 makes very little change. negotiable but was then told, three days later, it would The second key issue concerns the legal advice that be £20,000 non-negotiable. He asked for that to be put the Government seem to have obtained in reaching in writing but was refused. He was then told that the their conclusion on the best way forward. On pressing agreement would be for each one of his cask ales, not all this issue, it became clear to the Committee that the five, and that it would be not a one-off payment but an legal advice taken by Government was actually that annual payment. given to the British Beer and Pub Association—the trade association of the pub companies. They do not Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. A lot seem to have taken any independent legal advice whatever. of Members want to get in, so we need shorter interventions. Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): Will my hon. Friend give way? Mr Bailey: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. The short answer is that the motion is designed to provide a Mr Bailey: I will, but I am conscious of the fact that way forward that will end that sort of abuse. Like other many others want to speak. Members up and down the country, I am sure, I have several equally unjust examples. Ann McKechin: My hon. Friend is very generous in A fourth and crucial problem is the concern within allowing me to intervene. Does he share my concern the wider industry that the proposals do not reflect the that the key difference between a statutory code and a interests of all relevant sectors. Given that there is 355 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 356 effectively a dispute between the pub companies and the Mr Bailey: No, I am sorry. I am coming to a conclusion licensees, it would be reasonable for all their interests to and other people want to speak. be considered equally, but this does not seem to have Concerns are reflected in a submission from the happened. I thank the hon. Member for Leeds North Association of Licensed Multiple Retailers, which West (Greg Mulholland) for the work he has done, comments on the Government’s existing proposals: through freedom of information requests, which has “We have seen no action plan or agreed procedure to ensure clearly highlighted that the Government always intended open consultation in accordance with Government standards of to have a voluntary code, rather than a statutory one, best practice. There are also no agreed criteria or timetable and above all that in their response to the Committee against which progress may be judged or successful outcomes they have reproduced almost word for word sections of determined. Finally, there is no process for ongoing monitoring submissions made by the British Beer and Pub Association. of Government to ensure that these commitments are delivered or That completely undermines the confidence that the sanctions available if they are not.” wider industry had in the Government’s impartiality The proposals for an independent panel are designed to and commitment to finding an even-handed solution. deal with that concern in the industry. My real fear is That is one of my motives for wanting to put what I that if we pursue a statutory code without a mechanism hope will be a fail-safe device in the motion to gain for ensuring that it is based on the interests of all some sort of purchase on the process. sectors of the industry, we could end up with the worst The fifth issue that I want to address is the Government’s of all worlds—a statutory code based only on the refusal to accept the BIS Committee’s recommendations interests of the BBPA. regarding the free-of-tie option with open market rent The motion is not about more regulation; it is about review, which I have mentioned. The Select Committee’s liberating licensees, not regulating them. They are already position is not that there should be one option or other, heavily regulated in their contractual relationships with but we do say consistently in all our reports that that the pubcos. Our proposals for a statutory code would option should be available for new and existing publicans enable them to be free of some of those regulations. A so that they can, on the best professional advice, make a properly constructed code of practice would provide a decision about what most clearly meets the needs in basis for some of our most entrepreneurial small business their business plan. Unfortunately, that is not included men to free up their talents and demonstrate how well in the Government reply. they can serve the community. It is fair to ask why the motion does not call for immediate I remind everybody in the Chamber that thousands statutory legislation. The original recommendations of of publicans up and down the country will be listening the Select Committee were predicated on the assumption to and watching our debate, because they know that its that any such statutory intervention would arise from outcome could be vital in determining their future. At genuine and inclusive consultation, but the overwhelming the moment, they feel overwhelmingly let down. It is up evidence—I again thank the hon. Member for Leeds to Parliament to pass the motion and to demonstrate North West for the information he has obtained through today that we are on their side and that we will not rest FOI requests—is that the process is being driven by the until they get a fair deal. BBPA. It is for that reason that I included in the motion a requirement that an independent panel be set up, with Several hon. Members rose— membership approved by the Select Committee, to ensure that any assessment of the processes that the Government Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I undertake to deliver their proposals is monitored, and remind Members that Mr Speaker has not selected the that recommendations can subsequently be made. amendment and that we have a five-minute limit on It is important for Parliament not only to state clearly Back-Bench speeches. today the need in principle for a statutory code, but to retain control of the process to ensure that the code genuinely reflects the interests of all sides of the industry. 12.55 pm That is why I changed the motion in that respect. Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con): I thank my friend and colleague the hon. Member for West Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): My point is about Bromwich West (Mr Bailey), the Chairman of the Business, the timing of the review. A reasonable person looking at Innovation and Skills Committee for his contribution. the motion would see that it mentions changes that are It has been an honour to serve as vice-Chairman under currently being implemented, but the hon. Gentleman his guidance and I welcome the debate. is now calling for a review just a few months after they Mr Deputy Speaker, as you in particular will know, have been put in place. Will he explain the reason since 2004 there have been four Committee inquiries on behind holding a review so soon after the changes? this subject; I have had the pleasure of participating in Mr Bailey: The reason is that the Government started two of them. Progress has been made, but many assurances to implement their proposals for changes in the industry have been given about the voluntary code that have not a month before Christmas, so it is reasonable to assume been upheld and that is not good enough. that by autumn 2012 we shall have some idea of how The background is relatively simple. The nature of they are working. By setting up an independent panel of public houses and the associated brewing industry has professionally qualified and suitably experienced people changed much in the last 30 years. I recall a Monopolies to assess the changes, we will be able to make a judgment Commission investigation as long ago as 1972, as a about pursuing further statutory intervention. result of which breweries were increasingly made to question the value of maintaining their estate. In Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): Will the hon. consequence much of the estate was sold, initially to Gentleman give way? entrepreneurs, but they were progressively usurped by 357 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 358

[Mr Brian Binley] from the Minister today. Concerns about the future of the industry abound. Why should small tenants be the big players who developed massive estates of pub made to pay the price? They have suffered enough. Were chains. They borrowed much to create those estates and they not persuaded to take on these pubs under false therein lies the problem. pretences, under an unsustainable structure? Does not all the Committee’s evidence prove that to be true? Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Is my hon. Friend I want the Government to support the entire industry, talking about pub companies that own pubs, rather including the tenants. That means that in companies than breweries that have a pub estate? Is that the thrust with more than 500 pubs—that excludes the small of his argument? businesses—tied tenants should have the option to become free of the tie. Mr Binley: That is absolutely correct. I am talking about pubcos and I exclude family businesses that own Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): fewer than 500 pubs. The big owners of pubs and their Does my hon. Friend agree that the current relationship unsustainable financial structures are the real problem. between many tied pub tenants and large pub chain Let me make it clear: this is not about family-owned owners is almost feudal, and is neither fair nor sustainable? brewery companies, who do a very good job indeed. I am talking about big pub companies whose model is Mr Binley: I agree, and I am grateful to my hon. unsustainable; it is based on excessive debt, misleading Friend for making that point. information and deception, as the inquiry has proved. We need an opportunity for an independent, open Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): Will rent review within the terms of the tenancy. Those who my hon. Friend clarify this point? Is it correct that large choose to stay tied need to have the option of selling a pub companies borrowed against future rental income, guest beer. We need to give tenants more freedom to so they are dependent on that to sustain their high levels decide the style and structure of their business. Those of debt? things are not available within the pubcos at present. Those are fairly simple requests. I do not believe that Mr Binley: They borrowed against the value of the they can be achieved without an independent ombudsman properties, and rental income is very relevant. That is to monitor compliance—history and practice are on absolutely correct. Therein lies the unsustainability of this side of the argument. the model, when we bear in mind that the breweries I do not know why the Government have sought to built up their estate over a 200-year period. back away from their own commitments. I recognise the Sadly, tenants are the victims of that unsustainable need to compromise in the way that the Chairman of structure. In many cases they face prices higher than the Select Committee has explained, but if we want, as I those on the open market, exorbitant rents and a quart- do, a virile and vibrant pub industry that is strong for measure of misleading information. To make a pub the future, we need to deal with the cancer that is work, individuals have ploughed in their savings on the undermining it and putting its very existence under back of distorted information, and as a consequence threat. That, Mr Minister, means that we need to change they have gone to the wall. Most publicans are dedicated the proposals that have already been made. I expect the and hard-working people. We should take note: they are explanations I have asked for, and I expect the Minister influential opinion formers in our communities and to be compliant and say that changes will be made— many of them have been badly treated. All I seek is fairness on their behalf. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I call Following the Committee’s 2010 inquiry, there was a Ian Lucas. clear understanding that the industry would have a year to get its house in order, or a statutory code of practice 1.3 pm would be introduced. I questioned the previous Government Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): It is a pleasure to follow and received that assurance. I questioned the current the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), Secretary of State, who confirmed that he would continue whose eloquence I aspire to and whose passion I can with that promise, but the Government have sadly reneged only dream about. I know that he has much experience on that undertaking. I find that very sad indeed. of the detail of this issue from the Select Committee. The Government’s proposals for a legally binding One aspect of it in particular has concerned me for voluntary code are not good enough. They have performed many years. a volte face on this issue and it is incumbent on them to Before I came to the House, I was a high street explain why their proposals are superior. How will a solicitor, although I try to keep that quiet most of the voluntary code work? The Minister’s argument seems time. One thing that I found most surprising when I to be that the level of protection will be comparable to began to work on commercial leases, particularly in the that provided by a statutory code, but why is a voluntary licensing sector, was the existence of this curious anomaly code preferred when it has failed in the past? If the called the beer tie, which seems to create an anti-competitive answer lies within the industry, why has it taken so long situation in the brewing industry that does not appear to make such desultory progress? Why should this Minister to be allowed in any other industry. have any more faith in the industry than his predecessors, who had similar confidence? What is the cost of the Andrew Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman talks about voluntary code? How does it compare with the certainties the anti-competitive nature of the beer tie. Does he that statutory regulation would bring? How much will it accept that a number of Government reports and one cost tenants, when they are in trouble, to pursue an by the Office of Fair Trading have said that it is not action under the voluntary code? Those answers I demand anti-competitive at all? 359 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 360

Ian Lucas: I shall come on to that, and I reject that These concerns have been recognised over the years by decision entirely. I accept that the OFT has investigated various Select Committee reports. We all know that it is the matter on a number of occasions. Like many Members a very complex and difficult matter of long standing of the House and publicans in my constituency and and that it is of grave concern to our constituents. across the country, I have for many years been completely CAMRA goes on to say that the Secretary of State mystified by the inactivity of the OFT and by the for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Under-Secretary conclusions it has reached. We all know that pubs in of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. our constituencies are in crisis and that the beer tie is Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), part of the problem. “both gave clear Government commitments that if the pub companies Greg Mulholland rose— failed to meet a deadline for self regulation by June 2011 then they would act to require meaningful reform. These commitments Ian Lucas: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has have been broken.” done so much tremendous work in this area. That is a very serious allegation, and I am sure that the Under-Secretary will want to respond to that in due Greg Mulholland: The hon. Gentleman will be aware course. that the OFT said clearly that the imbalance in the The commitments were given in the context of the relationship between tenants and pub companies was build-up to the last general election. This was a major not within its remit. It did not even comment on the issue in campaigns in all parts of the House. When the substantive issue that we are debating today, so its election came there was a broad consensus about what report is not relevant. action needed to be taken. It is unfortunate that the Ian Lucas: Absolutely. The inequality in the bargaining parties in government have not carried that consensus power of pub companies and publicans is a central through to the implementation of policies that are issue. We see that month after month in our constituencies. broadly based and command respect throughout the It is part of the crisis that is happening in town centres House. and high streets across the country. We must view the We know that there is a crisis on the high street and debate in the context of the important challenges that that pubs on those high streets play an extremely important we all face, no matter what type of constituency we part in a functioning and vibrant local community. The have. Government have the power to make a real impact on I looked at this issue in detail before the last general high streets by dealing with this issue, and they must do election, when I surveyed publicans throughout my so simply by fulfilling the commitments they gave before constituency on how their business could be improved. the general election and that Ministers have made since. They were vociferous in responding, and one of the They need to respect publicans, the pub trade and our overriding themes was the existence of the beer tie. I am high streets and follow through on those commitments. therefore astonished that the Government’s response to the Select Committee states that Several hon. Members rose— “the Government therefore considers the debate over ‘tied’ or ‘free-of-tie’ to be largely a distraction. There is nothing in itself Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Time that causes the tie to be fundamentally wrong—and, in fact, in is very tight, so perhaps Members could ease back on some instances, the tied model may be essential to the preservation interventions. Those Members who wish to catch my of small British brewers and local beer—and, with them, British businesses and jobs.” eye, if they have already intervened, will have to go lower down the list, because otherwise it is unfair on those We have already touched on the position of small waiting to speak. If Members can try to make the most brewers. The inequality in the bargaining power of of this and shorten their speeches, the better it will be. large pub companies and the publicans on our high streets is a central issue. I was a Minister for regulatory reform before the last 1.10 pm general election, and my view is that regulation should Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I echo be a last resort. As far as I am concerned, this is the last my earlier comments commending the Select Committee resort, and this case desperately calls for regulation on its excellent work. The all-party save the pub group because we have to balance out the unequal bargaining has been delighted to work with the Committee and power that is removing real choice from consumers on support its work. I am disappointed that we have to our high streets. When consumers go to their local pubs have this debate. As has already been made clear, in the they are prevented from purchasing beers that they past 18 months we received unanimous, cast-iron want because of the existence of the beer tie. commitments from Front-Bench spokesmen of all three main parties that, if self-regulation failed by June 2011, Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I am glad that my a statutory code of practice would be introduced, including hon. Friend is talking about consumers. One of my the all-important genuine free-of-tie option. concerns is that the number of pubs in my constituency has declined since 2005 from 52 to 33, which is not If people ask why this should be reviewed in the untypical. There is less choice for consumers, partly as a autumn, the simple answer is that it has been going on result of this issue. for seven years and generated four Select Committee reports. The last attempt at self-regulation was supposed Ian Lucas: That is absolutely right. We know that to be the final one, which makes the Government’s CAMRA, which has done superb work in this area over response even more baffling. The sad reality is that their many years, takes the view that response simply does not deal with the fundamental “the ‘beer tie’ as operated by the large pub companies is a key issue, which is that the big pub companies take too driving factor behind the decline of the pub trade.” much from each pub and it makes it difficult or impossible 361 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 362

[Greg Mulholland] evidence is damning, which is why many organisations are saying that the Government should halt their entire for those licensees to make a living, and that also shuts proposal for reform in its tracks. pubs. The Government’s response does nothing whatsoever to address that. Mr Davey: Will my hon. Friend give way? I am afraid that the Government have also been sold a pup. The immediate improvements outlined in their Greg Mulholland: I apologise to the Minister, but I response are illusory. First, there are no substantive have given way twice. He will have plenty of time to changes in the new framework code of practice produced respond. by the British Beer and Pub Association. Secondly, and This is clearly not an industry solution. I am afraid even more worryingly, the whole idea of putting the that the Minister has been misled by the BBPA, because new codes on a legal footing is a mirage. The BBPA’s its report, which was copied into the Government’s own legal advice—let us all be clear that it is the response, clearly stated that the Association of Licensed representative organisation of the pub companies—based Multiple Retailers and the Guild of Master Victuallers on a legal authority that goes back 100 years, the Carlill had agreed to be part of the pub independent conciliation case, has made it clear that, if we are to rely on that case, advisory service. However, the chairman of GMV has those codes are already binding. A letter was sent to stated: pubco lessees over Christmas that worried them “We as an organisation have neither agreed to, or been presented considerably. It suggested that the 2010 company code with, any proposal in respect of our participation in PICAS at of practice would become binding if they sought to use this time.” it in any case, which is clearly an offer to ensnare them The Minister needs to ask why he has been misled by in further obligations to their landlords not already the BBPA and then answer to the House. covered in the lease. Let us be clear that the Government’s proposals for The first question to the Minister is this: how on reform are not industry proposals. They are not supported earth can anyone be seeking to put on a legal footing by the Independent Pub Confederation, the GMV, the codes that he himself has said are inadequate? He has Federation of Small Businesses, the Forum of Private written to the Select Committee Chair, stating: Business, the ALMR, CAMRA, Fair Pint, Justice for “In some case, primarily where the letter was sent in advance of Licensees, Licensees Unite or the all-party save the pub the new code being agreed, the link to the industry Framework group. Why on earth did the Minister suggest throughout Code led to the former version rather than the enhanced version, the Government response that it is an industry proposal? of the code; however, this will be superseded by the new version of It is not even the Government’s response, but the response the code once it has been agreed.” of the pubcos trying to avoid the self-regulation that he The simple problem is this: which code and which offer? agreed was necessary. There are so many codes floating around, it is an The Prime Minister rightly talks about dealing with absolute mess. The Minister needs to know that many crony capitalism, and I absolutely agree with him on licensee organisations believe that the Government, that. In 2010, after shares in Enterprise Inns collapsed—they accepting the advice of the BBPA that it is a good idea fell from 770p in 2007 to 26p in January this year, a to make the codes legally binding, will actually make decline in value of 96.6%—Mr Ted Tuppen awarded the situation worse for licensees, not better. himself a 50% pay rise of £412,000, taking home The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, £1.22 million, including a bonus of £558,000. At the Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): For the sake same time he was closing pubs and making things of clarity, it is the industry framework code that will be impossible for tenants. I am sorry to say that the legally binding, and it is the strengthened industry code Government’s response has backed the pub companies as agreed with the Federation of Licensed Victuallers and crony capitalism in the worst sense. Associations and the BBPA on 22 December last year. We now need the statutory code of practice, including the genuine free-of-tie option. That was promised by Greg Mulholland: Not only was that code opposed by the Minister, the Secretary of State and the Prime all the other organisations, but it was the old company Minister before the election. We have waited long enough. codes that were mentioned in the letter, and the Minister We will wait until the autumn, but no longer. has not adequately addressed that point. 1.18 pm Kevin Brennan: Is the hon. Gentleman surprised at what has happened, given that before the general election Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I congratulate we worked closely together, he as a Back Bencher and I my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich West as a Minister, as did the Select Committee and the (Mr Bailey) on securing today’s debate. It is about so Front Benches, to come to an agreed position? Does he much more than a fair deal for publicans; it is about the have any explanation for why the Government have vital role pubs play in so many of our communities, taken this stance? particularly rural communities. In the village where I live in East Lothian, the pub is one of the few remaining Greg Mulholland: Sadly, I am afraid that the explanation facilities. It is where local community groups and appears to be clear from the freedom of information organisations meet and where a newcomer like me goes request submitted by the save the pub group: the so-called to get to know the locals and find out what is going on Government response is basically the BBPA’s own report, in the community. Pubs are also vital employers in rural with some passages and commitments taken word for communities, but that is being hit hard by the Government’s word—indeed, there is even a typo in the BBPA report failed economic plan. The flexible working and shift presented to Ministers that was directly cut and pasted patterns often fit well for women and provide them with into the Government’s response. I am afraid that the vital employment opportunities. 363 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 364

We need to give publicans a fair chance to make a surpluses are Gift Aid granted to the Prestoungrange Arts Festival decent living, and as a new Member I have been amazed which is a charity devoting all its resources to using the arts to at the scale of the problem and at the number of stimulate and encourage the economy of Prestonpans and its publicans who have come to me to seek help. I am vicinity.” regularly copied into correspondence that extends to I should like the Minister to come—I will even buy him dozens of e-mails between them and the pub companies, a pint if he does—to Prestonpans. I hope to welcome and I cannot begin to imagine the stress that the situation him there soon. causes publicans as they try to negotiate a fair deal. In that process, they often manage to negotiate a fair deal 1.23 pm in one area, but then the pub company raises costs or Andrew Griffiths (Burton) (Con): I pay tribute to the reduces income in another. It really is time for the work of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, Government to do something about the situation. which has been diligent and dogged in taking this issue forward and looking at the pressures and problems that Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Will the hon. publicans and pub owners face throughout the country. Lady give way? I also thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing this debate, as it demonstrates the real commitment Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I am afraid on both sides of the House to ensuring that the Government that I will not, because I am aware that many Members do something to support pubs and brewers and get our want to contribute. pub industry back on its feet. Indeed, in my constituency one publican, Mr Laurence It is a pleasure to follow, in particular, my hon. Brunton, contacted me when he heard the Government’s Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), response to the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee who has immersed himself in pubs more, and has more report, and said that the experience of pubs, than any other Member. I have no “government’s lame response to BIS committee recommendation doubt that everybody taking part in today’s debate has makes a laughing stock of a hard working publican who is read the Science and Technology Committee’s report earning £10k a year.” and abstained for at least two days this week in order to Has the Minister had any conversations with the Chancellor contribute this afternoon. about how much the taxpayer is having to pay out in tax I should also declare an interest as the chairman of credits to subsidise the way in which many of our the all-party beer group, and because in my constituency publicans are being ripped off? I have Punch Taverns, Spirit Group and Marston’s, a The problems that I hear from publicans in East family brewer that also owns pubs. Lothian are about pubco-packaged beer prices, as well I think we all agree on the need to clean up the pub as those for alcopops and soft drinks, being almost companies’ act and the way in which tenants are treated. 100% more expensive than the wholesale price. They None of us disagrees on that, and we all want to see describe rent negotiations as totally one-sided, and they healthy and vibrant brewing and pub industries. I do feel like they are being bullied. The correspondence that not defend the actions of some pub companies, as I have seen certainly seems to back that up. Pubcos are uncovered by the Business, Innovation and Skills often slow to carry out repairs or they do not carry Committee, but although the hon. Member for West them out at all, and that affects a publican’s ability to Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) said earlier that he was generate income and to achieve the targets that the concerned that pubs are over-regulated, his solution companies set them. Many publicans survive only because was to increase the regulation on pubs. of their family’s help, often paying the minimum wage to family members in order to keep the business running. Mr Bailey: I did not say that pubs were over-regulated; The hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg I said that they were highly regulated by pub companies, Mulholland) described the Prime Minister as talking and that a statutory code would release pubs from some about a fair system of capitalism, but actually the of that regulation. Leader of the Opposition has been leading that debate. It is good to see the Government catching up, if a little Andrew Griffiths: I think we both agree that pubs are belatedly, but this is an opportunity for them to take highly regulated, but I assert that introducing a statutory some action to redress the imbalance in the pub industry. code would increase regulation. We want to allow anybody taking on a pub to have access to information, we want I should like also to make some positive suggestions transparency, and we want them to understand what to the Minister and, indeed, to invite him to my constituency they are taking on when they take on their pub. to see some different pub models that are fairer and give something back to the community. Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): It is absolutely Does he have any plans to encourage mutual pub right to point out those in the pub sector and brewing models? The Prestoungrange Gothenburg pub in industry who are doing all they can to create a thriving Prestonpans is an example of a pub giving back to the industry and to secure jobs, but we need the backstop of local community. It has recently won prizes and awards regulation. It should not be brought to bear daily in from the Campaign for Real Ale, as the best new every pub throughout the country, but I believe that if enterprise in East Lothian, and, just last year, as Forth we have a review in the autumn, it will prove that the Radio’s pub of the year. Its website describes just what threat of such regulation is necessary to ensure that the the Prestoungrange Gothenburg does. It is worst practices in the industry are ruled out. “under the management of the East of Scotland Public House Company Limited which trades wholly within the original Gothenburg Andrew Griffiths: I agree that we may well wish to Principles its founders established. After a 5% pa cumulative consider a review in future, but as for the idea that we return on the capital employed in the enterprise, all further should bring in new regulation and new requirements 365 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 366

[Andrew Griffiths] hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) for the tremendous speech he gave and for the work that and then, within just a few months, review them again, I he has done over recent years. worry that companies will be concerned more about the The work of the Business, Innovation and Skills review than about implementing the changes themselves. Committee has been a model for what a Select Committee should do, not only under the chairmanship of my hon. Mr Binley: Will my hon. Friend give way? Friend the Member for West Bromwich West, but also under that of the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire Andrew Griffiths: I have given way twice already, so I (Peter Luff). The Committee is absolutely right to point shall continue, if I may. out the inadequacies of the pub companies system, and We have to be careful what we wish for. More mature in trying to bring the Government to account and Members will be fully aware of the beer orders—well- asking them to do what is right. The report, which I intentioned regulation to improve the lot of publicans have read a number of times, shows the tenacity, doggedness and pubs throughout the country, which, I argue, got us and hard work that members of the Committee put into into this situation in the first place. We have to be the investigation. My hon. Friend the Member for West careful before we reach for the lever of regulation, Bromwich West is right that landlords and tenants because once it is imposed, the costs, burdens and across the country will be interested to see what happens unintended consequences are there for everyone to see. at the end of the debate and to hear Members’contributions. We all recognise that pubcos are drinking at the last chance saloon, but today I heard the accusations made Kevin Brennan: The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew against the BBPA and I am, quite frankly, staggered. Griffiths) said that pubcos were drinking at the last Hon. Members have mentioned several small family chance saloon. Given how long the Select Committee brewers, but all are members of the BBPA. It is not has been working on this matter and how long that some sinister organisation, and although it is made up metaphor has been used, does it not seem that the last of pubcos, it also includes family brewers from up and chance saloon is somewhere where time is never called? down the country, so the idea that it has some sinister Paul Murphy: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. hand on the Minister’s shoulder and is influencing him He and I have drunk in many pubs together over the in an underhand way is blatant nonsense, as is the idea years, and understand the importance of that. that the Minister should develop policies for the brewing and pub industry and not have a proper dialogue with I entirely support the recommendations and conclusions the biggest trade body in the industry. of the Select Committee, including a statutory code of practice, a free-of-tie option and an open market rent We have a proposal to bring in a tough industry code. review with an independent adjudicator. What comes It will provide transparent information as a matter of through in the report is the frustration and loss of course to anyone who is thinking about taking on a patience of Committee members with the pub companies. pub, and provide people with legal redress. The code I hasten to add that we are talking not about our family will now be legally binding, so anybody who finds that brewers, such as Brains in south Wales, which are their pub company or family brewer has not upheld the respected and good employers with good public houses, code will be able to have their case heard in court. There but about companies that lack transparency in what will be a process of arbitration so that anybody who they do, and did not impress the members of the Select feels that they are being dealt a bad hand by a pub Committee when they gave evidence. A cursory glance company or the pub industry can have redress through at the evidence given to the Committee shows how the independent arbitration. Those are the things that any pub companies tried to evade and wriggle out of the tenant who feels hard done by requires to get the important issues. assistance and redress that they need. Most importantly, that will be delivered through self-regulation, which I Greg Mulholland: Does the right hon. Gentleman believe will be cheaper, more cost-effective and speedier find it odd that the first response of the Department for in producing remedies. We can all point to Departments Business, Innovation and Skills to this wonderful Select that have brought in regulation or arbitration that has Committee report was to rush out an invitation to the not worked. We do not have all the answers in government. pub companies to a meeting to talk about how to It is far better to allow the industry this last chance to circumvent the report? get its act in order. Finally, the idea that the tie is the only thing that is Paul Murphy: I was not aware of that. I know that the leading to the closure of pubs is blatant nonsense. Yes, hon. Gentleman has done a great deal of work on these it is an issue, but we have to consider the impact of important issues using freedom of information requests people’s drinking habits, the power of below-cost selling and so on. It is obvious that the Government must by supermarkets, and the red tape and regulation that speak to the trade association—it would be daft if they we have loaded on to pubs. Do not for one minute think did not. However, there is a difference between speaking that if the motion were passed and the Government and listening to the members of that association and introduced the statutory code, it would solve the industry’s engaging in one of the biggest acts of plagiarism that problems. It patently would not. we have seen in responding to the Select Committee. The Government appear to have put into their sloppy response the wishes of the pub companies in their 1.31 pm entirety, including the typing errors. That was a great Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am grateful for the disappointment, because it was clear that all Front opportunity to speak in this important debate. I pay Benchers agreed that there should be a statutory code tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich of conduct and with all the other issues that the Select West (Mr Bailey) for securing the debate, and to the Committee put forward. 367 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 368

I have been looking at this matter for three to four Karen Bradley: I should like to add my personal years in my constituency. Every Member will have experience to the debate, because I am the daughter of a examples of tenants, landlords and publicans in their publican who was tied to a large pubco but now runs a constituency who have come to the end of their tether free house. I can reassure my hon. Friend that having a with the way in which they are treated by the pub free house is a much more favourable position, and that companies. In my constituency, Mr Phil Jones, the being free of the beer tie is very important. landlord of the Open Hearth public house in Pontypool, has been a doughty fighter on this issue. He has given Andrew Stephenson: I could not agree more with my evidence to the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee hon. Friend. That is why I am speaking in support of and its predecessor. He has shown how shamefully the the motion’s call for a statutory code for pub companies, companies have treated their tenants. It is about time despite the fact that I am normally in favour of voluntary that changed. Like many of his colleagues up and down regulation. the country, he has shown Members of Parliament the A case in point in Colne, where I live, is the North personal tragedy and misery caused by the way in which Valley pub, which closed about two years ago. Like a those systems operate. number of pubs in Pendle, it was owned by a large pub The Government have to change their mind. Outside company that completely refused to reduce the rent, in the country, there is a genuine desire for tenants and although the landlord was experiencing vastly reduced publicans across the country to be treated fairly and sales, partly because of the tough economic times and properly. There is no doubt, as my hon. Friend the the smoking ban. I am sure that if there had been an Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) has said, open market rent review and an independent adjudicator, that public houses play a tremendous part in our national that pub would still have been open today, but instead life and a huge integrated part in our communities. I the landlord had to hand back the keys and the pub is hope that the Government will listen to Members across now a plumbing merchant’s premises. I am sure that the the House, change their mind and implement the pub company involved would say that it was no longer recommendations of the Select Committee. viable, and that it was always going to close down in the long term, but I do not believe that voluntary regulation 1.37 pm is delivering what we need. We therefore have to consider putting things on a firmer footing. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on granting this As things stand, the business model of large pub debate and the hon. Member for West Bromwich West companies is based on extracting an inequitable share (Mr Bailey) on his efforts to secure it. I am a great fan of of profits through excessive rents and forcing tied landlords the British pub, so much so that I live next door to one to purchase beer and other products at a premium of and have worked shifts behind the bar at three of my about 50% on open market prices. That figure has local pubs over recent months—the White Swan in already been mentioned in the debate. Some pub companies, Fence, the Four Alls in Higham and the George and when they set their beer tie, seem to ignore local Dragon in Barrowford. circumstances completely. From what I am led to believe, landlords in my area tied to Punch Taverns have to pay As many Members have said, the future of the pub the brewery something between £1.32 and £1.56 per looks far from rosy. UK pubs are in crisis, with 25 closing pint that they buy. In the town where I live, Colne, the every week. Pubs are under pressure for many reasons, Derby Arms sells Foster’s and John Smith’s for £1.49 a including the tough economic times that we are in, pint, and the Wallace Hartley and the Duke of Lancaster rising beer prices and taxes, and below-cost sales of sell Foster’s for £1.79. [Interruption.] Move up north. alcohol in supermarkets, which I am particularly against. Some of the large pub companies are forcing their tied I believe that there is increasing evidence that the beer landlords to buy the product at a higher price than that tie, as operated by the large pub companies, plays a for which other local pubs are selling it to the man in significant role in the decline of the pub trade. I point the street. That inevitably forces pubs out of business, out explicitly that I am referring only to the behaviour because they cannot compete in the local market conditions. of some large pub companies that own more than I therefore have no hesitation in supporting the motion 500 pubs, not to family-owned breweries, which tend to and calling on the Government to reconsider self-regulation act much more responsibly. and stop the large pub companies abusing their position. In my constituency of Pendle over the past few years, seven pubs have closed in Brierfield, five in Barnoldswick, 1.42 pm seven in Nelson, three in Colne and numerous others in the surrounding areas. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): York’s pubs are part of the heritage of the city. Some of them have been Andrew Griffiths: We want to keep more pubs open open, welcoming guests and serving beer, for hundreds and to stop pubs closing. Does my hon. Friend agree of years, whereas others have of course opened more that all the evidence shows that free house pubs are recently, but they are all valued by local people and closing faster than tenanted pubs? attract thousands of tourists to the city and contribute to the local economy. Andrew Stephenson: The evidence that I have seen I meet the members of the Licensed Victuallers does not suggest that. In my area freehold pubs have Association in York from time to time to discuss business certainly been able to buck the trend and survive because conditions, and recently I conducted a survey of 160 pubs they have additional flexibility in the products that they and working men’s clubs in my constituency. In their can buy and in the other costs of the pub. I have seen responses, the licensees were extremely critical of the some of the practices of the pub companies hindering relationship between lessees and pub companies, and rather than helping the pub trade in my area. one commented: 369 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 370

[Hugh Bayley] 1.47 pm

“It’s like me renting you a house for a market rent but telling Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): I you that you can only do your food shop in Harrods, ie: at top congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on prices”. bringing the debate forward. It is massively important, because as I think we all agree, pubs play an incredibly The beer tie, which of course covers a lot more than important role in our society. If we are to talk about the beer—soft drinks, peanuts and practically everything big society, we should recognise that an awful lot of that a pub sells—is clearly anti-competitive and not in charity ventures and community groups and activities the consumer’s interest. involve a pint, whether of beer or orange juice, at the The previous Government endorsed the then Select local pub at some point. Committee’s recommendation that, over a period of The subject is massively important also because pubs time, all existing and new lessees should be offered a are a place for social, intergenerational drinking rather free-of-tie lease with an open-market rent. In its recent than the isolated drinking that very cheap supermarket report, the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee alcohol can often encourage or the antisocial behaviour revealed that only 16% of new lessees and 9% of current caused by preloading—kids drinking a lot before they lessees had been offered that, which is clearly completely go out. Pubs are important for all sorts of reasons, as I unacceptable. know we all agree. The Government’s response is out of touch with the The issue of the beer tie is one part of the equation industry. We are told that the tie is a lawful practice, so that is leading to many of our pubs closing. Although that is all right. However, the Select Committee argues we must recognise the importance of that, we must also that there should be legislation to give lessees the recognise the other factors in the closure of pubs, which opportunity of running a business without the tie. The have already been mentioned. Cut-price supermarket Government’s response also expresses the view that alcohol is a massive one and social changes are another, whether a lease or tenancy includes a tie is simply and there may also be things that we can do about “a commercial decision on the part of both parties.” business rates and licensing to help to create a level playing field for pubs. That is like suggesting that the competition for road space between a juggernaut and a bicycle is a competition Greg Mulholland: Of course there are a number of between equals. It is not a satisfactory response. factors affecting pubs, but when we compare a tied pub If one of the major clothing retailers decided to get and a free-of-tie pub, we see that the fundamental into the business of renting out small shops, but restricted difference that shuts a tied pub is the pubco’s unreasonable its tenants to selling only its own brands and then terms. insisted on selling those brands to the tenants at double the market price, we would immediately say that it was Charlotte Leslie: I thank my hon. Friend for that, and anti-competitive, unfair and wrong, and we would not I am just coming to the role of the pub tie and the pub allow it, yet that is exactly the relationship between the companies. pub companies and many of their lessees. It is a shame that there seems to be a lot of distrust I wish to refer to one other issue, which is the retail among the various factions about how the Government’s price of alcohol in supermarkets and off-licences. In my response to the Select Committee has come about. I survey, 76% of York licensees said that alcohol sales at know that figures have been put forward stating that supermarkets were the leading cause of their falling non-tied pubs close faster than tied pubs, but those profits, and 96% thought that supermarkets should not figures are in dispute because tied pubs tend to be sold be able to sell alcohol at cheap rates. Indeed, 70% wanted to developers before they close down, so they are not a minimum retail price for beer sales on licensed premises. listed as tied pubs by the time they close down. There is also the issue of large businesses reporting business Before the general election, I wrote a chapter of a failures. There are therefore doubts about the statistics policy pamphlet in which I proposed a minimum retail on whether a pub is better off being tied or non-tied. price for alcohol on health grounds. I suggested a price of 50p a unit, which would equate to £3 as the minimum Greg Mulholland: To be clear, the CGA Strategy cost of a bottle of wine, or £1 for a pint. Pubs would not figures, which no one disputes, show that between December go out of business if we had a minimum price of that 2008 and June 2011, the number of tied pubs fell by level; nor would it prevent people on modest incomes 3,216, and that in the same period the number of from going to a supermarket and buying an occasional free-of-tie pubs increased by 425. Does the hon. Lady bottle of wine or beer to enjoy. However, it would stop agree that it is baffling that the Department for Business, the sale of alcohol as loss-leaders by supermarkets, Innovation and Skills simply accepted the British Beer which is doing so much damage to both pubs and and Pub Association’s misleading representation of those public health. events, which, as she says, omitted transfers that happen. I believe that the Government’s response is intellectually in some cases deliberately to distort the figures? incoherent. They say that there is no need for legislation on the terms of leases, because they affect lessees rather Charlotte Leslie: It is very obvious—this is crucial to than consumers. Yet on the subject of the beer tie, they the debate—that there is a strong feeling that the response propose taking no real action because it would affect was unilaterally informed. I am not in a position to say consumers rather than lessees. They should concern whether that is the case, but it is difficult for the themselves both with the viability of pubs as businesses Government’s response to have authority, particularly and the rights of consumers, but they fail to do either of on such an important issue, when there are allegations those things in their response. that it was overly unilaterally informed. I take my hon. 371 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 372

Friend’s point. The dispute over the figures is very much Lessees can currently buy only a limited range of a case in point. Another result of the beer tie is the beer, often at inflated prices, which restricts pub goers’ substantially lower earning of the publicans who try to choice, prevents small local brewers selling to such pubs manage those pubs. and remorselessly accelerates the number of pub closures. That is statistics, but anecdotally—we are all very That scandal must stop. The Chair of the Committee aware of the limitations and strengths of anecdotes—we has reminded the House both in his motion and speech hear of people opting out of the beer tie to find their that the Secretary of State promised action to save our rent increasing. Publicans who have been in the business pubs if the industry did not get its house in order, but for a long time and who took on pubs under big neither the industry nor the Secretary of State has companies 20 years ago report how much more restrictive delivered. That is why this debate is so important. pub companies have become in recent times. Given the I welcome the introduction of a new arbitration upward slope that pubs face in making themselves service, and requirements to follow rental guidelines viable, that seems a counter-intuitive direction for pub and to publish national wholesale price lists, but the companies if they want pubs to succeed. package as a whole will do little to stop pub closures or Other areas of distrust that are not at all helpful to to provide meaningful support for sustainable local the debate include disputed membership of the Pub community pubs. Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service, which my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West Greg Mulholland: Apart from concerns about the (Greg Mulholland) also mentioned. misrepresentation of PICAS, does the hon. Lady share I shall vote for the motion. Given the lack of success licensees’ concerns that although PICAS is set up to be of self-regulation in the past, there is a question mark an independent arbitrator, it will be funded and controlled over whether it will work in future. I am not one to run by the British Beer and Pub Association, and therefore for more regulation—there are lots of unintended the pub companies? consequences. Caroline Lucas: That is a good point. I was trying to Mr Binley: Is it not true, however, that there is no find something positive to say, but the hon. Gentleman regulation, because the voluntary code is supposed to is right that there are concerns about that aspect. be put into practice in its entirety? The argument that a The Government’s response has failed to address the statutory code means more regulation simply suggests key issues of providing lessees with a genuine free-of-tie that the voluntary code is not being followed. option. It will therefore not rebalance the relationship between struggling licensees and large pub companies. I Charlotte Leslie: My hon. Friend makes a good point. am also concerned that even the limited package that One issue at stake is the efficacy of a voluntary code. has been announced will not actually be delivered, Although there might be problems with the timing of a given the pub companies’ history of broken promises review, a review of the kind of voluntary code that the and abandoned commitments. Government have suggested would be extremely As other hon. Members have said, pubs are central to valuable—it will set in place many of the issues that we our communities. Chris Beaumont, the landlord of The are discussing. Greys in the Hanover area of my constituency, tells me I do not want to take up too much time because lots that his is the only pub in the area that has not closed of hon. Members want to speak. As a Conservative on and reopened in the last nine years. The London Unity the Government Benches, I do not believe that regulation has had three owners in two years, The Geese has is always the answer, but it is sometimes. It must be changed hands four times in six years, and the Horse looked at—it cannot be dismissed out of hand out of and Groom recently closed and reopened. In the pub religiosity. I also believe that if a business model is not trade, such closing and reopening is known as churn. sustainable, it must be allowed to fail. However, the key Churn matters, because it means ruined livelihoods for thing is that pubs face an uphill struggle—it is not a the individual landlords and their families. It also means level playing field—in so many aspects of their operation. instability for our pubs and our local economy. It takes Looking at the relationship between pub companies years to build up a great community pub. A high and publicans is just one factor in levelling out that very turnover of pub landlords as pubs regularly close and uneven playing field, which has devastating effects on reopen sends out a negative message that times are not community cohesion not only in rural communities, but good and that it is difficult to survive in an area, which in communities all over the country. clearly does not help other local businesses. The tied scheme was a significant factor in all the closures I 1.53 pm mentioned, but the pubcos would prefer that we did know about it: the data on pubs that close do not tell of Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I pubs that close and reopen. congratulate the hon. Member for West Bromwich West The other thing that pubcos are less than honest (Mr Bailey) on securing this important debate and about is that when they sit down and negotiate with commend the excellent Business, Innovation and Skills lessees, they claim that lessees can always be free of tied Committee report. options, yet often fail to mention that they must pay It is deeply worrying that the pub market in the UK a premium to qualify for that. On wines and spirits, has become so dominated by just a handful of companies. the charge is between £4,000 and £5,000 extra per Tenants are being ripped off by those companies, which year. It is a similar amount for bottled beers. To put can overcharge for beer because the tenants are tied to that into context, the typical annual rent for a pub them. The pub tie has been instrumental in hundreds of tenant in Brighton is around £25,000 a year. Pubcos are successful local pubs going to the wall, which continues. therefore essentially extorting an additional 20% increase 373 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 374

[Caroline Lucas] solution that better reflects the wishes of all publicans and pubcos, as well as the careful work of the Business, on the rent to free landlords from the tie. Furthermore, Innovation and Skills Committee. pubcos do not generally offer an untied option on draught beers or lagers. 2pm The Government must listen to lessees such as Chris and the many others in my constituency represented by Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am grateful to the the Brighton & Hove Licensees Association. They are Backbench Business Committee for granting this debate all deeply worried and believe as I do that it is high time and to the hon. Member for West Bromwich West the Government acted to protect community pubs and (Mr Bailey) for securing it. lessees. Pubs are pivotal to the economy and the tourist Before I came to this place, I spent 27 years as a industry, so the health of the sector has a particular chartered surveyor. During that time, I carried out rent resonance in my constituency. reviews on most types of business properties, although my experience with licensed premises was peripheral. Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): The headquarters Underpinning most rent review valuations is a requirement of the Campaign for Real Ale is in my constituency, and to assess the open-market rental value. That is the best we host the annual beer festival. I completely concur way of establishing a rent that is fair to both parties, with the hon. Lady on the importance of tourism and providing landlords with a fair return on their investment pubs together. Tourism and pubs mean not just casual and tenants with a reasonable opportunity to build a drinking, but major economic activity in the local area, sustainable business into the long term. If the two and she is right to highlight that. parties are unable to agree, the matter is referred to an arbitrator or an independent expert. Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Lady for her It is bizarre that a procedure that is routine for the intervention. I agree that pubs are good not just for the vast majority of business people who lease premises is community, but for the local economy—in fact, they are not available to a particular group: pubco tenants. often essential to it. Research produced by CAMRA shows that such publicans In Sussex, for example, we have an impressive range are at a considerable disadvantage compared with non-tied of local breweries, including micro-breweries. If they operators. They are worse off financially and work are to thrive, we need to change the situation that has harder for a lower return, normally burning the midnight arisen with ties. We must not allow big business to oil, tackling red tape and filling in the dreaded VAT continue to wield such unfair power over pub lessees by return. restricting access to locally produced ales. We must The tied system has some advantages in that it can make it possible for local brewers to sell their beers to provide an opportunity for people to set up their own local pubs. Without statutory regulation to ensure fairness, businesses without having to raise large amounts of a huge part of the potential market for our local ales is capital, and it continues to form an important part of closed off. many family brewing businesses. However, it should If the Government act to protect and promote real have the potential to act as a stepping-stone, with community pubs, they could begin seriously to people then moving on to own their own businesses, as promote a strategy to encourage responsible drinking we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire and the enjoyment of local ales, ciders and other Moorlands (Karen Bradley); it should not drive people drinks. out of business altogether. I fully support CAMRA’s championing of functioning The tied system was devised in a different era, which and well-run community pubs. An effective approach to is long since gone, when the pub market was dominated reduce alcohol-related harm must involve support for by many family brewers, who wanted to ensure that good community pubs, which provide a safe and responsible their pubs sold their beer. Those brewers had a vested place for people to drink. Therefore, parallel to the interest in ensuring that their pubs were well run, and statutory code of practice described in the motion, our landlords duly received support. In return, they bought community pubs should be supported with a policy of their beer directly from the brewers, with no middleman minimum pricing of alcohol in supermarkets. That in between. Many of those breweries were household would begin to tackle seriously the problems caused for names, but they have long since gone. Tollemache, Cobbold, our pub trade, and indeed for wider society, by the Lacons, Bullards and Manns owned pubs across Suffolk off-sale of cheap alcohol, which is often low quality. I and Norfolk. Today, only Greene King and Adnams accept that is a topic for another debate, but it is not remain, along with micro-breweries such as Green Jack unrelated to the intention behind today’s motion, which in Oulton Broad in my constituency. Greene King and is to protect our community pubs. Adnams continue to run their tied houses well and In conclusion, I fear that the Government are being successfully, but the market is now dominated by pubcos, cavalier in rejecting the recommendations of the Business, which do not brew their own beer; they are middlemen Innovation and Skills Committee and instead putting taking their margin, and they have different business their faith in the very companies accused of malpractice objectives from the family brewers. Given those changes, to put their house in order finally.The future of community it is appropriate that the tied system should be reformed, pubs is at stake, so, in common with many other Members, and the proposals in the motion appear sensible and I call on the Government to eschew the grasp of the logical. large pub companies and instead to champion, protect As we have heard, there are other issues that need to and increase the number of local pubs. The tied pubs in be addressed: the taxation of beer; the reform of licensing Brighton, Pavilion want to know when the Business laws, which, since 2003, have made it more difficult to Secretary will keep his promise. We need a statutory play live music; and the below-cost sale of alcohol by 375 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 376 supermarkets. However, for me as a chartered surveyor, up the market to give small players a better chance; there is one other subject that needs to be addressed: the instead, the big corporate interests regrouped, and seven rating system. Many publicans scratch their heads over pub companies now dominate the industry. However, how the Valuation Office Agency has arrived at such a Parliament has responded, as has been said. In 2004, high rateable value assessment for their properties. The the Select Committee on Trade and Industry highlighted art of rating valuation has, I am afraid, become totally concerns about the unhealthy and unbalanced relationship abstract and distant from reality. Town centre drinking between pub companies and their lessees. Five years barns, which are subject to a different rating regime, later, the Select Committee on Business and Enterprise seem to have an unfair advantage over community revisited the issue, concluding that little meaningful pubs. That anomaly needs to be addressed, but that is a reform had taken place. debate for another day. As several Members have said, that was accepted by Mr Davey: I wanted to intervene on the hon. Gentleman the then Labour Government. When the Business, before he finished his remarks, because he is a chartered Innovation and Skills Committee report was published surveyor. I therefore invite him to welcome the fact that, in March 2010, the then pubs Minister, my right hon. in our negotiations with the BBPA, we secured a Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John strengthening of the industry framework code, which Healey), gave notice to the pub companies that if in the will specify that all rent review assessments must comply Committee’s view the voluntary code was not working with Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors guidance, as well as it should be by 2011—this is crucial—the and that rent assessments for new full repairing and Government would put it on a statutory basis. insuring leases must be signed off by a RICS-qualified The coalition maintained that commitment. When individual. the Secretary of State was questioned in July 2010 by the hon. Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), Peter Aldous: I am grateful to the Minister for giving who is the deputy Chair of the Business, Innovation that clarification. and Skills Committee—he is a relentless champion of In the meantime, let me conclude by saying that small business, and I am sorry he is not in his place to although there are other issues that need to be addressed hear me say that—he confirmed that commitment. He to enable pubs to compete on a level playing field, we said that pub companies were “on probation” from the have an opportunity to address an iniquity that, in Committee and that “the commitment is to give them many respects, is leftover from a bygone age. I therefore until 11 June and if they have not delivered a more support the motion. satisfactory arrangement then there will have to be legislative action.” So, in 2011, the Select Committee 2.5 pm reviewed the position and gave the Government its Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I represent a report on the industry’s probationary period. In our constituency that includes 197 community and city report, Members from all three parties represented on centre pubs, as well as five breweries. Almost 4,000 the Committee agreed that there had been people are employed in the industry in one way or “a process of implementation which can only be described as another. I cannot miss the opportunity to point out that half-hearted”. CAMRA held its last annual conference in Sheffield and, in effect, endorsed us as the real ale capital of the We also found that the country, praising our unrivalled choice of real ales and “BBPA (British Beer and Pub Association) has shown itself pubs—I challenge the Minister to come and sample to be impotent”, some of them. I am also a member of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. Furthermore, in one and that there had been of my jobs before being elected to this place I ran a “a lack of meaningful sanctions”. £5 million licensed operation consisting of several bars We concluded: and pubs. We are talking about a sector that employs about “This latest attempt at reform has failed…We therefore conclude that the reforms do not meet the test set by our 500,000 people in 54,000 pubs. As the hon. Member for predecessor committee.” Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) said, the sector is in crisis, with about 25 pubs closing every week. We know that, That should have been the end of the matter; following and we see it in our communities. As several Members several years of consideration by successive Select have said, that is a loss to not only the landlords and the Committees and clear pledges from successive Governments, people who work in the pubs but the communities. the time had come for legislative action and a statutory As the hon. Gentleman said, there are several reasons code. for those business failures, but a key factor is the way in At that point, however, the Government reneged on which the big companies, which own almost half our their commitment and put the corporate interests of the pubs, squeeze unreasonable returns out of their landlords big pub companies before the interests of the small to support their own flawed business model. To respond business men and women who run our pubs, and before to a point made by the hon. Member for Bristol North those of the consumers who use them. Not only did the West (Charlotte Leslie), it is that business model that Government make the wrong call following our report; should be allowed to fail, not the business model of the appallingly, it became clear—thanks to the work of the individual small business men and women who run the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland)— pubs. that they had already made their mind up before receiving It was not supposed to be like this, and those behind our verdict. The Minister should be held to account for the 1989 beer orders legislation cannot have expected that. The industry needs action now, and I support the such an outcome. The legislation was supposed to open motion. 377 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 378

2.10 pm Let me cite the recent research by the IPPR, which was called “Tied Down”. It talked to 550 publicans, and Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Pubs are a significant some of the resulting figures are quite startling. It feature in all our constituencies. In Eastbourne, when found that 57% of those subject to the ties that oblige people ask where I live, I say, “Just up the road from the tenants of the big pub groups to buy beer from them Lamb”, and everyone knows where I mean. That is just were struggling financially, compared with 43% of non-tied a small way of illustrating how valuable pubs are across landlords. That is a difference of almost 20%. The the UK. IPPR’s associate director, Rick Muir, said: I pay tribute to the hon. Member for West Bromwich “Thousands of publicans across Britain are being put under West (Mr Bailey) for securing this debate, and to my significant financial pressure by the ‘beer tie’. Our survey of hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg publicans shows that they have suffered worse through the recession Mulholland), who has been leading on this issue for a because of this tie. A recent select committee report shows that number of years. the higher prices tied publicans have to pay for their beer are not adequately compensated for by lower rents.” Before becoming an MP, I had observed over the past That is why we need regulation. The original theory was 10 years or so a rapid decrease in the number of pubs. that the publican would pay a lower rent because of the Since coming to the House, I have received representations tie, but some of those absolutely deplorable companies from publicans and constituents in Eastbourne, and I got themselves into such a mess financially because they have carried out some research. Much of what I was were so heavily leveraged in debt that they leant on their going to say has already been said, and I shall not tenants to a quite disgraceful degree, and lifted the rents repeat it, but I want to mention some research by the hugely. Institute for Public Policy Research. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West and many others The time has come for the Government seriously to today have expressed with passion the fact that we have look at regulation. I could, just possibly, be persuaded visited this issue on numerous occasions, under the to give the companies nine months and review the previous Government and this one. The same issue situation in the autumn, but this has been going on for keeps coming up, and the Select Committee keeps working years, and I would urge the Minister to agree to a away at it, focusing on what needs to be done. The review. Furthermore, he should publicly state on behalf Government of the day listen, say that they will do of the Government, in the Chamber, that if the pub something about it, and then do nothing. The reason companies do not come up to speed this time—and, my that we have to keep coming back to it is that the major God, they have had so many opportunities in the last players behave deplorably; there is no other way of chance saloon—we will regulate. putting it. It was noted earlier that pubcos have a lot on their The more I researched the matter over the past few mind at the moment, and we were asked whether we months, having spoken to my hon. Friend the Member really needed to put them under this pressure. Well, yes for Leeds North West, the more I kept asking myself, we do. How many times are we going to allow them to “What is going on? What other industry would keep say that they are going to do something, only for them saying that it was going to do something, yet keep not to do it? I urge the Government to tell them that if breaking its word?” Then I thought, “I’ve got it! It’s they have not come up with voluntary proposals within investment banking!” I am very much a business-wing nine months, there will be statutory regulation. That is Liberal, and, like my hon. Friend the Member for the compromise that I am prepared to accept. I know Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), who is not in his place, a that the Minister has worked hard in this area, but if the great believer in light-touch regulation. There are exceptions companies do not change, to the extent that we have to to every rule, however. I do not like light-touch regulation regulate, they will have brought that upon themselves. I for investment banks, because that is what got us into urge the Minister to take action. the mess we are now in. Nor do I think that the argument not to regulate the pubcos stacks up. 2.17 pm Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): It sounds as Cleveland) (Lab): I should like to praise the hard work though my hon. Friend, like me, hopes that the motion of the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Greg will be successful today. He has had a great deal of Mulholland) on this issue over many years; it has been experience working with the Federation of Small Businesses. well documented. I also want to congratulate my hon. If he were giving business advice, would he ever advise Friend the Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) someone to become the tenant of a pubco? on securing this debate. Licensees in my constituency are getting a poor deal Stephen Lloyd: My hon. Friend is so right: a lot of the from exploitative pubcos, and the Government have to work that I did for the FSB before coming to the House act. At present, on this issue the Prime Minister is involved meetings with landlords who had pubco tenancies. dodging his round at the bar. Louise Gibben of the Some of the meetings were among the most desperate I Huntsman in Guisborough in my constituency has told have ever had, because those people were getting absolutely me that, after paying Enterprise Inns £20,000 a year in nailed by the pub companies. So, to be perfectly honest, rent, plus her overheads, her business rates and her I would not advise anyone to become a tenant under the Performing Rights Society licence, she is left with next present criteria. That is absurd, because I am massively to nothing. That is not because of a lack of hard work, pro-small business; it is precisely that sector that is or because the pub is of poor quality. Indeed, new local going to get us out of this economic mess. At the customers have documented the fact on a website that moment, however, the playing field is much too uneven, her staff are “great” and that she has made and something really has to be done. “every effort to make the pub a success” 379 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 380 by serving meals and making it a family-friendly in the will to help with refurbishments—these are probably environment. Unfortunately, however, the rep for Enterprise only a few of the additional burdens that lessees have Inns has told her to try harder. had to face. We need to be aware that much of that Sadly, this situation is not unique to Louise. She is stems from 1980s legislation in the context of the not the only one who is struggling to keep her pub fundamental shift towards the large pubco estates that afloat despite the rent and contractual conditions imposed we now have. by a pubco. For example, nearly 30,000 tenants face the I welcome much of the work done by successive problem of being tied to a specific brewery as part of Select Committees on the practices of pubcos, but I their tenancy. While tenants are struggling to survive think we should be careful about what we wish for as we and pubs are closing, pubcos are still reporting millions look to legislate now. We could end up out of the frying of pounds in profits. Enterprise Inns, for example, pan into the fire because we are in a very different world reported a pre-tax profit of £157 million last year, today than we were when the Select Committee first despite the harsh prevailing economic circumstances, considered this issue in 2004. Back then, pubs were still yet its tenants in my constituency are struggling to in decline, but there has been a huge aggregation of maintain their livelihoods. issues since. We have had the smoking ban, increased Large pubcos are not producing value; they are exploiting regulation on alcohol sales, beer duty rising by 35% the small business people who, through their own over the last four years alone, below-cost selling at endeavours, are trying to make a living. It is also obvious supermarkets becoming more prevalent and, to top all to everyone that they are not giving their tenants the that, we have suffered the deepest and longest recession respect that they deserve. The Government have to act since the 1930s. These factors have no doubt strained to ensure that relations between the pubcos and their even further relations between pubcos and their lessees. tenants are fair. The self-regulatory framework that the Government are proposing does not go far enough. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I thank my According to the Fair Pint campaign, it will not require hon. Friend for giving way and would like to add to his any concessions by the pubcos, and it will result in very list of other factors affecting our local community pubs. little, if any, change to the wholly unsatisfactory status We heard about Performing Rights Society licences quo. from the hon. Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop). There is also the cost The Government’s measures might enjoy the support of live television sport in pubs; one of my local landlords of the large pubcos, but I know that tenants in my needs £800 a month to pay for that. My hon. Friend constituency, as represented through the Independent mentioned regulation a few moments ago. Does he Pub Confederation, feel betrayed and very disappointed agree that self-regulation of the pubcos is not working; by the lack of a genuine free-of-tie option accompanied will he join me and many other Members in supporting by a review into open market rent. They feel that any this motion and setting a timetable for the Government self-regulatory framework will not help them to secure a to look again at self-regulation? fairer deal. We cannot trust these pubcos to regulate themselves. I urge this Government, for the sake of tenants and the future of pubs in my constituent, to Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. I ensure that any code of practice exists by statute rather shall come on to the issue of self-regulation. than by the will of the people whom we wish to regulate. The relationship between pubcos and lessees has been exacerbated by external factors. That has not been helped by the fact that, as many hon. Members have 2.20 pm mentioned, the pubcos are now greatly overleveraged. Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Pubs are not That leads me to be a little concerned about what we just places we frequent to buy beer; they are vital seem to be wishing for. The overleveraging of the pubcos community hubs that can be fundamental to our lives. I makes the position very difficult for them in comparison can say that, given that I met my wife in a pub called the with 2004, as the horse might now have bolted. Perhaps Chetwynd Arms in my constituency back in 1997. we should have done the legislating back then when the Given that it was in 1997, I conclude only that it was circumstances were different. probably the only good thing to come out of that year. When it comes to the external factors I mentioned, Since those heady days, we have lost much of that there are many things—in addition to what the Select community heritage that our pubs give. At the moment Committee report raised—that the Minister with we risk the continuing demise of the good old British responsibility for pubs and the Under-Secretary of State pub. Part of the demise has no doubt been exacerbated for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member by the relationship between the pubcos and their lessees. for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who is to reply History tells us that the arrangements between pubcos, to this debate, need to look at and address. The Select lessees and tenants, which emanated from the break-up Committee focused its mind on the relationship between of the estates of the large breweries back in the 1990s, the pubcos and lessees. That is important when we have were not initially dissimilar to the situation that obtained reached a position in which the pubcos are looking at under the breweries. Where the model differs tremendously, things in a different light, albeit not quickly enough for however, is that the pubcos are middlemen—yet another many lessees. middleman between the product producer and the end I believe that the voluntary measures put forward are user of the product. That has necessarily added costs positive and I welcome the industry framework code, over a number of years. The costs seem to have been which will be legally binding. I welcome PICAS, the met quickly by the tenants and lessees who have seen three year accreditation code and the strengthening of many changes over that period: metered pumps, tighter the framework code. I particularly welcome having a reins on guest ales, loss of machine income, reductions new pubs advisory service. More advice, training and 381 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 382

[Mr Marcus Jones] favoured solution of the accused—the pubcos, in this instance—and that there has obviously been collusion information is vital to potential lessees, who need to go in the refining of the suggestion, but that in itself does into these businesses with their eyes fully open. Having not invalidate the solution. the right training for the lessees going into them is important. Under the old breweries, most of the lessees Mr Davey: My hon. Friend has made the serious coming into pubs as tenants had managed pub groups allegation that there has been collusion with the British for many years. They knew their trade inside out. That Beer and Pub Association. What evidence has he for is why they ran successful pub businesses. In that respect, that allegation? there is a gap now. Voluntary measures will be positive only if they are John Pugh: I refer the Minister to the speech of my adhered to and only if PICAS has teeth and the pubs hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West, who advisory service has more independence. That is why I presented a fair amount of prima facie evidence that I fully support a review of these arrangements over direct, think impressed the House. However, I want to do the immediate regulation. I think we need to give more time Minister a favour here. It could be argued that the to see whether the voluntary arrangements being put in consent and co-operation of the pubcos will make any place are going to work. solution more workable—just as restorative justice is often preferable to sheer penal justice—especially if a We must try to avoid making the mistakes of the past, self-regulatory code is given some legal significance, which happened when the big breweries were broken although, as other Members have pointed out, a statutory up. Voluntary regulation is important. It must be monitored code would lead to more compliance and less legal carefully, and we must not look to deal with this issue in recourse. That sounds pretty reasonable, apart from the a silo or depend only on this aspect to solve the problems fact that the Government clearly promised something that our community pubs face. else and have lost trust, and the fact that the pubcos have a dismal record of keeping to commitments, as the 2.26 pm Select Committee’s report made clear. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I begin by paying full Overall, the Government’s response represents the tribute to the Select Committee for its work, particularly triumph of hope over experience, or of realpolitik over for the sterling work done by the hon. Member for trust. There is a long and—as must not be forgotten— Northampton South (Mr Binley) and my hon. Friend sordid history of a connection between politicians and the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland)— the brewing industry over the ages, dating back to the usually the quietest and most self-effacing of men. They time of Gladstone and before, with the tenant often have clearly been angered by this issue. perceived by the Liberals as the victim. Ultimately, this This seems to be a debate about two solutions to a is the Government’s call. If they ignore the Select commonly recognised problem—the unfair trading practices Committee’s advice, they will risk being considered associated with the tie, and the relationship between untrustworthy; I think that that is inevitable now. They tenants and the pubco. The problem is not one of gamble on the good faith of the pubcos, but what if competition, and it is not one of competition failure or they are wrong? That is my main question to the consumer choice. It is connected with associated issues, Minister. If this is not a solution but in fact an evasion, which hon. Members have mentioned, such as the decline statutory regulation must be the only conceivable of community pubs, the decline of community cohesion answer. and so forth—generally regarded as a social ill, except perhaps in temperance circles. What we are debating Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Is it not now is not necessarily connected with that problem, clear that in virtually every case self-regulation does not however, as free houses are also closing, disappearing work, and that Governments are eventually forced to and depriving their community of their benefit. regulate for that reason rather than because they want or prefer to do so? At its simplest, the issue is about the running of the tied pub and how it can be made uneconomic for John Pugh: I think that self-regulation might work tenants through unfair and non-transparent terms of sometimes. What we are debating is what will happen if trade. It has been suggested that this is not an unwelcome it does not. What do the Government intend to do in outcome so far as the pubcos are concerned, because that event? I think it incumbent on the Minister to state they are short of capital and in some cases anxious to plainly that if self-regulation does not work, statutory sell off. That the terms of trade are penal, non-transparent regulation remains an option. If the Government have and arbitrary is simply not in dispute anywhere in the an objection in principle to statutory regulation, they Chamber. It has been demonstrated by the turnover of must make it clear to the House, because that is the tenants, who are coming and going all the time, by the most honest and forthright approach. Select Committee’s reports, and by the Government’s own undertakings to do something about what they Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): I have been have clearly identified as a problem. The issue that following the hon. Gentleman’s argument closely. Does divides the House, if indeed it does divide it, is how to he agree—indeed, I think this is his conclusion—that if find a way out. self-regulation is to work, the industry needs to know The Government are arguing for a non-statutory that if it does not in fact work, the Government will be code, for fairly straightforward reasons. They dislike prepared to follow up with statutory regulation? regulation in principle—they have said as much—they prefer effective self-regulation, and they believe that a John Pugh: I think that the Government must say non-statutory code represents a quicker fix. It clearly that. The industry has been given a second, third, does not help that their favoured solution is also the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh—however many chances we 383 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 384 may care to cite. If the Government do not intend ever the day, these buildings have to be paid for. As I have to introduce statutory regulation, they can and should said, one of the advantages is that this is a cheap form say so at the Dispatch Box today. of entry into the industry. What would people think if franchisees who operate under the McDonalds badge instead wanted to sell KFC because that might be more 2.33 pm profitable? This has to work both ways, therefore. Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): I pay tribute We must continue to review progress, and the pub to all the Members who have shown a real commitment sector must know that we are doing so. We must then to supporting our essential network of community pubs. focus on the other issues affecting the pub industry, That is incredibly important, because we politicians are such as tax, red tape and training. Training is crucial often accused of not debating issues that are discussed because pub failures are often a result of poor-quality in pubs up and down the country. On this occasion, we landlords. The next generation of landlords must be can raise a glass to that. able to step up to the challenge and address problems My local brewery, Arkell’s, which was established in such as the social changes of recent times. Fewer people 1843, is an example of good practice in terms of pub are inclined to go to the pub, and people tend to go less ties. I intend to describe the challenges that it faces, and often. Landlords have to be able to address such trends then present my brief conclusions. Arkell’s has about by providing food and offering quiz nights and sports 106 pubs, many of which have tied tenants. That has opportunities. We must therefore look at hospitality several benefits. It allows low-cost entry, providing an management courses in universities and colleges. They easy way for someone who feels that his calling in life is train people to work in the restaurant industry, but they to be a landlord to get into the industry; there are should also be proud to train them to work in the pub economies of scale, and the skills assistance and training industry so that we have a new generation of pub which, in most instances, transform the “I think I would landlords who can meet the challenge of protecting be a very good landlord” attitude into some form of those valuable community assets. reality; and, crucially, it enables an enthusiastic landlord to delegate a number of tasks that he may not himself wish to perform, perhaps preferring to focus on good 2.38 pm customer service rather than dealing with the accounts, Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): The importance the portable appliance testing and the insurance. of this subject is clear from the number of Members Moreover, as a family brewery, Arkell’s has a long-term present for this debate. That is unsurprising as pubs are commitment—historical and emotional—to local an important part of being British; they are an important communities, and will make long-term investments. My part of what holds us together and of what, literally, local pub, the excellent Tawny Owl, is installing 85 solar brings us together. This has been a difficult time for the panels which will have a 25-year payback return. Arkell’s licensed trade as a result of Sky TV costs and Performing has the confidence that that is worth doing. When local Rights Society costs, as well as changing social habits community pubs start to struggle, it does everything it leading to a decline in wet sales, combined with the can to keep them going. Although sometimes a community underlying structural problem that prices go up by price will no longer wish to have a community pub and the inflation but the biggest cost, which is people, goes up pub closes, Arkell’s considers itself to be a brewer first by wage inflation. There are clearly far too many pubs and believes it needs to sustain a network to sell its beer. closing in our towns and villages, and we need to find The head of the Arkell’s family brewery is James ways to stop that. Changing the tie arrangements is not Arkell. When I spoke to him, he highlighted that he felt the right way, however. the problem with the pubcos is that over the past I should declare an interest: I used to work in the 20 years the bond of trust has been broken. Many pubs and brewing business, but I no longer do so. The speakers have highlighted a number of the issues involved industry is built on partnerships between large companies in that, including increasing costs and service charges, and individual entrepreneurs. As my hon. Friend the and lack of transparency, so that when an enthusiastic Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) said, potential landlord signs up they are not 100% sure of that brings many people into the business who otherwise what they are signing up to, as well as lack of support would have no way in. However, whenever there are two and aggressive changes in contract terms, often driven businesses working together there is always potential by the fact that the pubco has decided it no longer for conflict, and this business certainly has its fair share wishes to have that pub site as it will make more money of that. We should also make it clear that there are if it sells it. Such behaviour is often driven by the fact many happy tenants and lessees, however; not everybody that many pubcos are drowning in debt. They are is at loggerheads with their partners. accountable to shareholders, and therefore tend to make At its heart, the tie is a way of sharing risk between short-term decisions. I think that all Members agree the real estate owner and the individual entrepreneur. that action was needed. Different sectors do that in different ways: they have I welcome the voluntary code. One of its advantages franchise fees as a percentage of revenue, turnover-related is that it can be implemented quickly, but the Minister rents or whatever it might be. In this sector, it just so must make it clear that if the industry does not sort happens that it is done primarily through the tie. Everything itself out and act responsibly, the voluntary code will be that I know about economics and business tells me that replaced by regulation. As a good, proud Conservative, loading all cost on to fixed cost and de-variablising it I do not normally favour more regulation, however, so would increase, not decrease, the number of business we must try to address this issue in the best way. failures because of the increased operational gearing. We must also be careful what we wish for, because we There is a somewhat false impression implicit in all seem to want both sides of the coin. At the end of much of this debate—in the wider sense; not so much 385 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 386

[Damian Hinds] We do need to make sure that there is fairness and transparency and that properly informed people come today—that, were the tie to go, everything else would into this business. On fairness, I welcome the commitment stay the same, so nobody’s rent would go up. Of course, in the new framework code to having no more upward-only that is not true at all. There is a required return on every rent reviews in full repairing and insuring leases. On piece of real estate; the market expects a required return transparency, I welcome the commitment to publish from quoted companies. national wholesale price lists, although I am not quite clear how that would work. In this business, where Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Does the hon. pricing is a complex art, wholesale prices are not necessarily Gentleman not accept that hardly anybody in this debate that much use unless the actual prices charged and has asked for the tie to go? We are talking about tariffs are known. My hon. Friend the Member for rebalancing the power relationship between lessees and Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi)—he is not with us pubcos, so that there is greater incentive for pubcos to today—suggested to the Select Committee that, through provide a more generous arrangement for small businesses. the medium of the internet and the wisdom of crowds, it might be possible to use these data in ways hitherto not possible. Damian Hinds: The motion does in fact specify a “free-of-tie option”. Many pub-owning companies would I also welcome the industry’s commitment to look say that some sites are appropriate for leases—where again at common formats for shadow profit and loss the partner can build the value of the lease by building accounts to make it easier to compare different pub up the food business, for example—whereas others are owners. I agree with the predecessor Select Committee’s more appropriate for a traditional tenancy-type business. finding in 2009 that all the information on a pub’s The motion as stated would conflict with that approach. trading history should be available to the potential licensee. However, it is also important that we understand In addition to that false implicit impression, there is a the limits of that. Pub companies will say that they confusing conflation of tenants and lessees. On the one would love to know a lot more about the trading history hand, we seem to be saying that this is only about very of various sites, often having limited sight of that large pub companies that run leases; yet a number of information. We need properly to inform people who those who have spoken in favour of that proposition are going into the business. I welcome the pre-entry have referred to the people in question as tenants. I am awareness training, but I also agree very much with the not entirely sure where the cut-off point of 500 sites Committee’s judgment that we need deep vigilance on comes from. It is possibly intended to target just a its quality. None of that invalidates the tie. couple of companies, but frankly, coming up with a regulatory package for the whole industry is probably If we want to be totally focused on keeping pubs not the best way to do that. I fear that that would pull in open, as I believe all hon. Members do, we have to a couple of other companies it is perhaps not intended address two fundamental things. The first is pubs competing to target. on price, partly against the supermarkets, but also, as some hon. Members have said, against managed houses, Most importantly, there is little evidence that I know particularly urban “vertical drinking establishments”, of that traditional, smaller, integrated brewers have any as they are known in the trade, which often severely difficulty with the tie, which suggests to me that there is undercut the traditional tenanted trade. The second is no problem with the tie per se. alternative usage value, as one way of keeping pubs open is to make it harder and more expensive to secure Mr Davey: My hon. Friend is right, and that is one a change of use for these premises. That will focus reason why the Government response made a big distinction minds u8on making sure that companies are supporting between the tied tenancy model and the leasehold model sustainable businesses. of full repairing and insuring leases, with which most, if not all, of the real detriment and problems have occurred. 2.45 pm Damian Hinds: The Minister is correct, and that is Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I congratulate indeed in the Government response. Unfortunately, the the hon. Member for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) BIS Committee report, which is a fantastic report and on promoting today’s motion. He is a fellow Robins to which we are to some extent referring, does not make fan, and I know that he, like me, will have wanted to that distinction quite so clearly. toast, in a pub somewhere, Cheltenham Town’s phenomenal, What should we do if the tie is not the answer? Let confident performance against Spurs last week—but as me start with what we should not do. The Government he rightly points out, the choice of pubs is becoming response puts it rather well: much more limited. That is happening for many reasons, “Government should not intervene in setting the terms of but the pub tie is clearly one of the factors contributing commercial contractual relationships” to pub closures. where, according to the OFT, there are no competition I promoted a private Member’s Bill on this subject issues that significantly affect consumers; and last year. It received very wide cross-party support, and that same level of cross-party support has been evident “whether or not a lease or tenancy includes a tie is a commercial decision on the part of both parties.” in the backing for: early-day motions; the all-party save the pub group, ably led by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland); the Select Mr Binley: Will my hon. Friend give way? Committee reports that have repeatedly set a timetable, which has now passed, for introducing a statutory code; Damian Hinds: I am afraid not. and, of course, today’s debate and motion. 387 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 388

When I promoted my Bill I received a lot of He concludes: correspondence, especially from the trade. I did receive “With a monopoly to supply 7,000 pubs, the service is one letter from Enterprise Inns, which pointed out the understandably poor, why would you offer more than a week or value of the tie. Indeed, the company generously took 2 payment terms, daily delivery, knowledgeable staff, sale or me round my constituency and demonstrated that the return, dependable deliveries, useful special offers, volume discounts, tie can sometimes deliver real benefits; that is true, why would they? It’s not as if I can take my business elsewhere.” especially where extensive capital investment is required. That inequality in the power relationship between struggling Yet the overwhelming volume of correspondence from small businesses and the major pubcos demonstrates the trade was supportive of a statutory code with a my point. free-of-tie option. One of the most powerful letters I received came Mr George Howarth: As I am ever anxious to be from someone who said the following: helpful, may I tell the hon. Gentleman that Crabbie’s ginger beer is made in Knowsley? “I have the misfortune to have a successful pub/restaurant…under a tied Enterprise lease…Having taken the lease last May from previous tenants who couldn’t make the business work, looking Martin Horwood: The right hon. Gentleman will have back no one seems to have had success since Enterprise bought to buy me whatever the relevant quantity is in a pub the pub”. sometime, if we can find one. To be even-handed, I must say that I have had quite a Jason McCartney: The hon. Gentleman makes some lot of complaints and correspondence from lessees of excellent points, as many colleagues have done on the Punch Taverns, too. One wrote: basis of their own personal experience, be it from meeting their partner in pubs or having worked in the “I am a Punch Lessee, I am at present on the biggest discount”— industry. My experience is of my two local pubs in in other words on beer price— Honley, in Yorkshire. The Allied has had three tenants “that Punch can give me, I am paying what is in my view an in 18 months—it is on to its third lot now—and the extortionate rent, an example of pricing is as follows: Coach and Horses, after numerous tenants over the My buying price from Strongbow Cider at highest discount past three years, has just closed. Although an Indian from Punch = £110 + VAT—Price from free-trade Moulton restaurant called Balooshai is going to open, which I Coors = £64 +VAT. welcome, I no longer have a pub within a minute’s This comparison is throughout the range. What chance have I walking distance. For those reasons, as well as because got of staying in business. The truth of the matter is that the of all the other points made in the Chamber this prices we have to charge to customers = empty pub.” afternoon, does my hon. Friend agree that action needs That is the unequal power relationship we need to have to be taken? tackled, and that view is widely held across the trade. The Minister should take credit for the positive steps Martin Horwood: Yes. that he is taking, but none of them really sort out the My correspondent also said: central issue, which is not the need to abolish the tie or “The local rep visited at my request this May, only his 3rd visit even customer choice and competition among pubs for and I now prefer to deal with him by email to have everything in customer trade but the need to rebalance the relationship writing.” between publicans and the pubcos, and the lack of any That supports the points that have been made about real incentive for those highly leveraged businesses to loss of trust. The letter continued: offer better terms and avoid pub closures. It is increasingly “He first volunteered the figures from the brulines system, clear to everyone in the trade, to the Select Committee, showing my doubling sales, food has also gone from nothing to a which has repeatedly considered it, and to Members very good business and is the only way to make any money on this across this House, that the only way to do that is to lease. I then put to him that at £5.5k breakeven I am paying about introduce a statutory code with a free-of-tie option. We £23k rent and £50k through the beer tie. This equates to around should not force all pubs out of the tie, but give the 17% return on the value of the property while I will struggle to pubcos an incentive to rebalance the relationship and even repay my investment let alone make a return on it or pay myself an income. When I put to him that unless he rebalanced offer more generous terms to those struggling small this I would be selling up and moving on he confirmed that I have businesses. The pubcos have been drinking in the last a lease in order that I can do this.” chance saloon for so long that they must be under the As my correspondent pointed out, the pubco representative table by now, and it is time for Ministers to join us all in would saying, “Time” and “Enough”. “make a mean poker player.” My correspondent continued: 2.52 pm “I’m waiting to see what comes from Westminster…Last resort Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Although several Members is to sell up and move on.” have a lot of knowledge of the pub industry, I think I He points out that this is not just about the price of the am the only Member who has spoken today who has beer either, saying: operated under a tie. Admittedly it was an awfully long “Aside from paying between 1.5 to 2 times wholesale value time ago, but the experience of operating under a tie is within the tie. Enterprise restrict what I can buy, for example I can principally the same now as it was when the beer orders not have Crabbies Ginger Beer”. came in. I have never heard of that. [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh dear!”] I agree with the hon. Member for East Hampshire Other hon. Members obviously have. (Damian Hinds) that the tie is not the problem. In my The letter continues: view, it represents the symbiotic relationship between “this may seem petty, but Crabbies is heavily marketed and is the company, which owns the pub, and the tenant, who hence what customers ask for.” puts his or her labour, blood, sweat and—often literally— 389 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 390

[Lorely Burt] Lorely Burt: I am grateful for that intervention. As for the pubcos, those over-relying on the property tears into the equation. Landlords have always complained model have become increasingly unviable and they are about the unfairness of the tie—they did it in my day being hoist on their own petard. Punch is selling off and they do it today—but people should enter into 2,000 pubs and Enterprise is selling 500. Those that are tenancy agreements with their eyes wide open, not with left will be protected by the code of practice. Why the starry-eyed image of being “mine host” behind the should we wait for two or three years to introduce bar obscuring the economic facts. I am glad to see that legislation, given that 98% of the industry has signed up the new pub advisory services will be established to to the code of practice today? The code of practice is support would-be tenants and ensure that they understand stronger and is legally binding. Rents must be based on what they are getting themselves into. independent guidance from the Royal Institution of The difference today is that the vast majority of tied Chartered Surveyors, and unhappy tenants can appeal pubs are owned not by breweries but by companies easily and cheaply to an independent mediation service whose purpose is not just selling beer but owning properties and to the courts. On the whole, this is a good deal for that they expected to accrue in value. Several changes landlords and customers. I can support the proposal in over the years have made that a less and less attractive the motion for a review to ensure that the voluntary business proposition, including changes in drinking habits, code and other measures are properly implemented and drink-drive legislation and so on. The property bubble that they work, but I would be happier if a little more has now burst and the pubcos can no longer rely on time were given to assessing whether they are working increasing property values to square a decreasing profit properly. circle. To their shame, some pubcos have resorted to Where I think that we as a Government have failed is imposing increasingly punitive terms on their tenants to in not taking strong enough action against the supermarkets make up the difference, including the full repairing and and their pernicious cheap alcohol policies. Several insuring leases that have been mentioned, along with colleagues have mentioned that. I should like to say, many other examples, by colleagues today. “Well done,” to my hon. Friend the Minister for the safeguards and changes he has managed to wring from Martin Horwood: Does not the point that my hon. the pubcos, but can he now persuade his right hon. and Friend is making underline the difference between the hon. Friends in the Treasury to substitute for the lily-livered kind of tie under which she operated with a brewer and excuse for a minimum charge for alcohol of VAT plus those under pub companies, which have no incentive the rate of duty, a proper minimum charge to protect not simply to sell their pubs and take the cash, as that our pub industry and the health of our nation? helps their balance sheets? 2.58 pm Lorely Burt: I agree with my hon. Friend to a degree, but the principle of the tie is the same. We need to make Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): It is a pleasure to sure that the tie operates fairly. stand here at the culmination of this excellent debate, These problems must stop, but should the answer be which has shown the House in a tremendous light. Let legally to require companies to offer a free-of-tie option? me start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member The balance has indisputably tipped too far towards the for West Bromwich West (Mr Bailey) on securing and landlord, but I think we are tipping the baby out with opening the debate. I congratulate also the hon. Members the bathwater. For the breweries, what would be the for Leeds North West (Greg Mulholland) and for point of having their own pubs if they could not impose Northampton South (Mr Binley) on their work on this a tie? Why would they go to the trouble of buying and issue. It is to the Minister’s shame that despite diligent refurbishing property and recruiting suitable tenants research and the magnificent campaign fought by many only for those tenants to start in competition against interested organisations, we are debating how to put them, selling someone else’s beer? Breweries have been safeguards into a policy that was announced without anxiously awaiting the Government proposals because proper consultation and in direct contradiction of they want to invest in the industry, but they will not do assurances given by him. that if they cannot keep the tie. I shall refer to the remarks of some Members during my contribution, but I must pick out specifically the Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Does the brilliant and passionate speech of the hon. Member for hon. Lady accept that one problem with the current Northampton South. He described how the Government situation is that it prejudices against local ales? I am have reneged on their undertaking, and pointed out thinking of McGivern ales in Ruabon. Its ale is hugely that the problem was the major pub companies that popular and I would like to see more pubs selling it, but have more than 500 pubs. The hon. Member for Leeds the current situation prejudices against that. North West spoke brilliantly and exposed the shameful collaboration of the Government and the BBPA. That Lorely Burt: Indeed, but the Office of Fair Trading point was also taken up by the hon. Member for Southport report found that there was not detriment to the consumer (John Pugh). in response to the tie. The pubs I go to tend to have all My hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona sorts of guest ales as well, so there is still that possibility. O’Donnell) talked about the impact on jobs. That is a vital issue: every week hundreds of people lose their job Mr Davey: The OFT found that the total volume of as a result of the number of pubs that are closing. beer sales by small breweries increased by 50% between The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) 2004 and 2009 despite the shrinking of the beer market spoke up for pub companies, but said that they were as a whole. drinking in the last chance saloon—and my right hon. 391 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 392

Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) rightly The FSB is not the only organisation to study the said that the last chance saloon sounded like a pub issue. The Institute for Public Policy Research also where time is never called. questioned tenants and lessees, and its findings showed that free-of-tie landlords manage pubs longer, are more Andrew Griffiths: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? optimistic about the future, are less likely to be struggling financially, and earn more. According to that study, Toby Perkins: I am afraid I do not have time. 46% of tied publicans earn less than £15,000 a year. The The hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) noted Leslie) felt that on balance there needed to be some that the IPPR found that 88% of publicans who claim regulation. She defied those who think that a Member to be struggling financially identified the beer tie as one cannot make a serious speech wearing a scarf—something of the most significant factors in their financial problems. that may catch on. The Minister, in his written response, built a man of My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Central straw, claiming that the critics were calling for the tie to (Paul Blomfield) talked about how, because of their end completely. He must know that that is not the case. flawed business model, the big pub companies are squeezing All the critics are saying is that if the traditionally out unreasonable returns. My hon. Friend the Member tenanted arrangement is such a good deal, why can the for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom big pub companies not offer both tied and free-of-tie Blenkinsop) said that the Prime Minister was dodging options, and let their tenants decide? his round at the bar. The hon. Member for Nuneaton The Select Committee discovered that at every turn (Mr Jones) reminded us of the role of the pub in uniting the big pubcos had failed to take the actions they had couples over the years. He reflected on the good fortune promised. In desperation, the Committee said in March of Mrs Jones to have been drinking in the right pub at 2010 that it would give the industry a final chance to the right time. prove that self-regulation could work. It was supported There were interesting contributions from my right by a sympathetic Government who promised to back its hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen and my hon. findings. When there is such knowledge and such Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley). commitment and when the industry has been given The hon. Members for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) every chance to put its house in order, how can the and for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke about Minister possibly write that the issue is more complicated alternative ways in which pubs might choose to improve than the critics realise? themselves. What the critics may have failed to understand is not Today we have heard a lot about the history of this the issue surrounding pubcos but the developing relationship issue, but it is worth reminding ourselves that we have between the pubcos, the BBPA and the ministerial had seven reports and there have been four inquiries by team. As the hon. Member for Leeds North West said, the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee. The the save the pub group has discovered, through freedom Government’s response has many flaws, which other of information requests, that throughout the process Members have exposed, but I want to talk about two the referee was getting changed in the same room as one specifically. of the teams. On the issue of pub closures, which was exposed by the hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson), the Mr Davey: Not only does the hon. Gentleman not Minister has swallowed the big pub company line that have any evidence of that, but he has asked me a free-of-tie pubs are more likely to close. He must know number of written parliamentary questions, and the that in general tied pubs do not close permanently, answers that I have given him show that what he has just because, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion alleged is not true. (Caroline Lucas) pointed out, they have a history of churning through huge numbers of landlords who try Toby Perkins: The Minister’s colleagues, the hon. and fail—another business going under, another life Members for Southport and for Leeds North West, unfairly ruined. One pub company had a churn rate of were deeply uncomfortable about the relationship. The 65%, so although the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely findings of the save the pub group, through freedom of Burt) says that people should go into such arrangements information requests, show that parts of the BBPA’s with their eyes open, that does not reflect the reality report—including the typing errors—were just cut and experienced by many tenants and lessees. Like the hon. pasted into the Government’s response. I do not know Lady, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South whether the Minister is still listening to me. It is difficult (Ian Murray) was previously a landlord—for Enterprise— for him to say that there is no evidence when Members and has strongly made the point that many people’s who sit on the same side of the Chamber as him feel lives were ruined because they were not aware of what that the relationship is deeply unhealthy. they had let themselves in for. It transpires that before the Select Committee report In March 2010, a Federation of Small Businesses came out the Minister had made up his mind that he survey found that 84% of tied businesses believed that would not consider legislation. As I said, the Government’s their relation with the pubco did not allow them to response to the report is, in substantial part, the BBPA’s compete effectively, 90% believed that the arrangements own report. As my hon. Friend the Member for West meant that they could not make a fair profit, and 87% Bromwich West said, it is now clear that the Minister indicated that they wanted to be free of the tie. Despite has had no independent legal advice on the legality of that evidence, the Government say in their response, as the framework, and instead has relied on legal advice my hon. Friend the Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) provided by the BBPA. It has become clear that his pointed out, that the debate over tied or free-of-tie officials were assisting the BBPA with the wording of a status is a distraction. We think that is entirely wrong. press release as early as October, when as far as interested 393 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 394

[Toby Perkins] is business as usual. They are on the side of the rich and the powerful, standing up for large vested interests and bodies were concerned the Minister was still sticking to leaving publicans to fight for themselves. his commitment to push through legislation. In fact he Ultimately, this issue set three tests for the Minister. was merely paving the way for the BBPA’s preferred Would the Government intervene to ensure a fair option. That is just what we know. Other information relationship between big pub businesses and small business requested by the save the pub group has been hidden by people? Would they keep their word and do what was the Government. How much worse can it be? right, even when a big, powerful lobby asked them not The verdict of the all-party save the pub group is to do so? Would they listen to the voice of the people, damning. It says that the Minister has not been naive; the voice of small businesses and the publicans at the the action is deliberate and, at best, a lazy response by coal face of the industry or, when they were needed, just him in the hope of clearing his desk. The verdict of the back down? On all those tests, the Government have Federation of Small Businesses is equally clear. It is failed. extremely disappointed by the Government’s response This is not a party political issue. Everyone agrees to the Select Committee inquiry and extremely concerned that the Government have got it wrong, as we heard that this agreement appears to have been negotiated today from Conservative and Liberal Democrat Members. with the BBPA and the larger pubcos without substantial A huge opportunity has been missed and the pub lobby consultation with interested parties. will not believe that this House is serious about action, If a Minister were able to come to the House and but it is not too late. Members must ensure that the create a policy that united opinion throughout the industry is held to account by supporting the motion, House, including the Select Committee, and among the ensuring that an independent body is allowed to come numerous groups referred to by the hon. Member for in and monitor what actually happens. Only then will Leeds North West, we would call him a genius. I have there be any chance of people having a serious hope no idea what the word is for the opposite of a genius, that the House will take action. I commend the motion but the Minister appears to have achieved the absolute to the House. opposite of that united opinion. Who else is calling for the Government to legislate on this issue? Who else 3.11 pm does the Minister think simply does not understand its full complexities? Alongside the Select Committee, the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Federation of Small Businesses and the all-party save Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): It might the pub group, there is CAMRA, the Independent Pub surprise the House to learn that I am very grateful for Confederation, Fair Pint, the GMB, the Association of today’s debate and for all the contributions made by Licensed Multiple Retailers, the Guild of Master Victuallers, hon. Members, not least because our deliberations will Unite, the Society of Independent Brewers and the be read by the industry, including the pubcos, and Forum of Private Business. If the Minister could leave because there is agreement on a number of issues. We the Chamber and come up with a policy that united all all agree that, while we want to enable businesses to those people in his favour, he would take a huge step generate growth and jobs, we also want them to operate forward in his career. fairly. There is no doubt that the Business, Innovation As has been declared, this was an opportunity to take and Skills Committee identified a number of concerns steps to resolve the problems faced by the 87% of about how the pub industry is operating. I strongly landlords who indicated that they wanted to be free of agree with the importance the Committee and hon. the tie. The Minister has wilfully and deliberately set Members attached to the role of pubs in communities out to avoid living up to that commitment. He says in the length and breadth of this country. the Government’s response that the industry will waste Before addressing some of the specific issues raised no time in living up to these demands, given the today, I would like to outline the reforms that the parliamentary interest in the matter. As the hon. Member Government recently secured from the industry so that for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) made clear, that is a no one is in any doubt about them. The reforms deliver risible claim, as all the evidence we have seen from the on our promise to take action and are much more pub companies over the years demonstrates. significant than many Members have suggested today. Who has the Minister let down? He has let down the The industry framework code is to be made legally Select Committee, which worked so hard and which he binding, and I can tell the House that all six of the big promised to back, and all those who contributed to its pubcos, as well as a number of the smaller family hearings. He has let down the small family brewers who operators, have already declared publicly on their websites have been shut out of many pubs as a result of the pub that they are legally bound by this code and sent letters companies’ market domination. He has let down the to their licensees setting out an open and unlimited Federation of Small Businesses, which campaigned so offer to this effect. That already represents over 70% of strongly, and let down CAMRA and the Fair Pint the tied trade and 100% of the large pubcos. campaign. He has let down the 25,000 publicans across A pub independent conciliation and arbitration service— Britain who run tied pubs. Most of all, he has let down PICAS—is to be set up. It will provide mediation and the customers who were relying on him to secure a arbitration on any matter relating to the framework or fairer balance between landlords and the pub companies. company codes and the results will be binding on both Never before has there been such a concern about parties. That will be done by the end of next month. crony capitalism or such an expectation that the There will be a three-yearly re-accreditation process for Government should stand up for small businesses. This company codes, administered by the British Institute of issue confirms what we have always suspected: beneath Innkeeping benchmarking and accreditation scheme the warm words, what we are getting from the Government through examination of annual compliance reports and 395 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 396 spot checks. A new pubs advisory service—PAS—will with the BBPA, the ALMR and CAMRA. They show provide an initial offering of free advice to all prospective clearly that we listened to all sides and negotiated hard and current tenants and lessees. There will be a strengthened with the BBPA. framework code, with a particular focus on full repairing For example, there are the minutes of the meeting and insuring leases and on issues such as rent, insurance, with the BBPA on 12 October, in which I laid down the transparency and pre-entry training. This strengthened conditions that any self-regulatory deal must satisfy. code was agreed between the BBPA, the BII, and the Otherwise, we would have had to consider regulation. FLVA, which is a licensee organisation, on 22 December. The minutes show that the key conditions were those Those reforms have the potential to deliver real change that I laid down—that the code must be legally binding, for tenants and lessees across the country, and they are that the code must be strengthened and that there must being brought into effect far more quickly than legislation be an independent dispute resolution service. could achieve. Following my initiative, the BBPA went away to write There have been suggestions of collusion, with allegations its report, which it sent to me on 20 October, and I can that in the process the Government listened only to the assure the House that in the meeting on 12 October the BBPA and were deaf to the voices of licensees. That is BBPA did not want to give the concessions that we simply not true. I have met CAMRA three times over wrung from it. Indeed, an e-mail on 20 October, which the past year; I have met my hon. Friend the Member is in the FOI request, shows that my officials contacted for Leeds North West, the chair of the all-party save the the ALMR, a member of the IPC and a licensee pub group, four times over that period; I have met the organisation, within half an hour of receiving the BBPA’s Independent Pub Confederation; and I have met offer in order to seek that organisation’s opinion. In the representatives of the Association of Licensed Multiple freedom of information request, there are e-mail exchanges Retailers, a licensee organisation, with which we were in in which we pressed the BBPA on how it was to make detailed discussions while negotiating with the BBPA. the code legally binding, and to give firm dates for implementing its commitments and establishing PICAS. Toby Perkins: Did any section of the representations That information is available on our website, and I am from the groups that the Minister has just mentioned happy to place it in the Library. find its way directly into the Government’s response, or was it simply the BBPA’s representation that turned up Ian Lucas: Does the Minister agree that the Government’s there? response falls short of the undertaking given to the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee in July 2010? Mr Davey: I heard the concerns of those organisations and the problems in the industry, and that is why we Mr Davey: No, I do not agree. My right hon. Friend have taken action. The hon. Gentleman tried to say that the Secretary of State said that he would take action, this was not a party political issue, but he made it into and we have taken action. one. He and his hon. Friends had 13 years to take action, but they took none. Ian Lucas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? During this process, I have read copious reports on and information about the concerns of licensees, and Mr Davey: No, and that action is a lot greater than we have taken action to address their concerns when we any the Labour party took over 13 years. have felt that action is appropriate. We will always listen— Mr Binley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

Ian Lucas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr Davey: No, I want to make some progress. [HON. MEMBERS: “Oh!”] I will give way to the hon. Gentleman Mr Davey: No. in a bit, because in two-and-a-half-hours’ evidence to We will always listen, but that does not mean that we the Select Committee he quizzed me for an hour, so let will agree on every point, such as on the point about the us be clear that I have answered an awful lot of questions beer tie, which I will discuss in due course. from him. Why did we not legislate? Some in this Chamber Ian Lucas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? wanted the Government to step in and regulate, and some even believe that we promised to do so, but we Mr Davey: No. promised to take action, and that is what we have done. We have had to consider all the evidence and the action Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): My hon. Friend that we would take, and I believe that the action we have is a former Business Minister. taken is appropriate and effective. We did not legislate because, first, we wanted to act Mr Davey: I will give way later on; I want to make now, not in two or three years’ time. To legislate, we some progress, because some serious allegations have would have had to carry out a lengthy process of been made. consultation, of drafting and of pre-legislative scrutiny, Reference has been made to the freedom of information and after that we would have had to fight for a slot in request, which is alleged to show that we just accepted the legislative Sessions. It is highly unlikely that such a the status quo and the views of the BBPA. The Government slot could have been found quickly. have now released more than 90% of the documents Secondly, this is a deregulatory Government. Additional requested under the recent FOI request, and more than regulation should always be a measure of last resort. 500 pages of documentation can now be found on our For the Government to intervene in the commercial website, including discussions and minutes of meetings contractual relationships between two parties, they must 397 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 398

[Mr Davey] pub is tied for beer. That is why my solution targets full repairing and insuring leases and leaves alone the traditional have very good reason. That is in line with the Government’s tied tenancy model, which is used successfully, and for top priority of achieving strong, sustainable and balanced the most part amicably, by local and regional brewers growth, and generating a climate that supports enterprise alike. and creates jobs. Thirdly, the market is driving a solution. The figures Thirdly, the Office of Fair Trading found in October show that since December 2008, slightly more free-of-tie 2010 that there were no competition issues affecting pubs closed than tied pubs. That is true whether one consumers in this market. That is a critical point, but I uses the gross closure rate or the net closure rate, which am afraid that the Select Committee report did not CAMRA says is more important as it takes account of discuss it. I am aware that in some circles, it is believed churning. Furthermore, big pubcos are selling off hundreds that the OFT is wrong. That is not a view that I share. of pubs a year, many of which are being bought by As Minister with responsibility for competition, I have family brewers or converting to being free-of-tie. Since high confidence in the rigour and accuracy of the OFT. December 2008, three times as many free-of-tie pubs Without evidence of competition issues, the rationale have opened than tied pubs and a further 1,300 pubs for Government intervention is significantly reduced. have converted from being tied to free-of-tie. Where the That is in contrast to the situation in the groceries market is working, the Government do not need to market, where the Competition Commission found evidence intervene. of competition issues. The Government have therefore committed to introducing a groceries code adjudicator Mr Binley: I am most grateful to the Minister for as soon as parliamentary time allows to ensure that giving way. I remind him that I asked the Secretary of large retailers treat their suppliers fairly and lawfully. State whether he would uphold the undertaking given by the previous Government that they would act on Hugh Bayley: Will the Minister give way? recommendations from the Select Committee if they were meaningful and in its report. Will the Minister Mr Davey: I will in a bit, but I want to make progress. confirm that the Secretary of State said that he would What we have delivered instead of regulation is a uphold that undertaking? Does he accept that that is self-regulatory regime much stronger than we have had the truth of the matter? before. As a result of commitments made by the pubcos, they will be obliged to comply with the code and it will Mr Davey: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of be delivered at least two or three years sooner than State said that he would take action, and we have taken under an Act of Parliament. That is in line with the action. Let us be clear that what the Select Committee Government’s commitment to focus on delivering reform wanted was legislation to deal with the problem. Through for small businesses right now, not in a few years’ time. negotiation and using contract law, we have got legally I have listened to campaigners on the issue of the tie, binding codes of practice that are in the spirit of what including the IPC, CAMRA and hon. Members. After the Select Committee asked for. More than that, the careful reflection, I disagree with them. I say careful Committee asked for an adjudicator, and we will have reflection because, like other Members, I have always PICAS to adjudicate on the code by February. Not only been worried by the tie, primarily because I had assumed are we tackling the issues that the Committee raised, we that it must be interfering with competition and was are doing so far more quickly than expected. I would therefore against the interests of consumers. That is have thought that the hon. Gentleman would welcome why, like others, I was keen for our independent competition that. authorities to consider the matter. The OFT’s investigation concluded that consumers are well served by British Toby Perkins: It is one thing for the Minister to argue pubs, that there is choice and that a wide variety of that what he is doing is better than what he undertook beers is available. To override an independent competition to do, but it is simply wrong for him to try to claim that authority would be a serious decision for a Minister to he is doing what the Secretary of State and he undertook take and would require significant evidence that the to the Select Committee to do. He must know that the authority had failed to deliver. As CAMRA decided commitment that the Secretary of State gave is not what not to challenge the OFT further, presumably it did not he is delivering. Why does he not just be honest and say have further evidence; we certainly did not. that? Martin Horwood: Will my hon. Friend give way? Mr Davey: Throughout my speech I have shown that Mr Davey: No, but I will in a second. the hon. Gentleman was wrong in almost everything that he said to the House, and he is wrong again. Mr Binley: Will the Minister give way now? I recognise that some Members would want us to have gone further, yet our reforms, including the Mr Davey: No. strengthening of the code, its establishment on a legally Secondly, when one examines where the relationships binding footing and the soon to be completed establishment between pubcos and licensees have gone wrong, it quickly of PICAS, will mean real change for licensees and becomes clear that the major problem is not with the tenants across the country. traditional tied tenancy, but with full repairing and insuring leases, which are mostly, but not exclusively, Martin Horwood: I believe that Members can welcome used by the pubcos. There are problems with pre-entry the positive steps that the Minister has announced but training, transparency and rent guidance not being still believe that they do not really tackle the key issues, followed, but not with the basic question of whether a which are not about compliance and competition but, 399 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 400 as the debate has shown, more about the relationship action. Either he can interfere or he cannot, and he is between struggling small businesses and big pubcos. If either taking action or not taking action, but he cannot we are to have one last drink in the last chance marry the two. saloon, what time scale will he now unambiguously put At the end of the day, the Government’s approach on the self-regulatory regime before statutory action is will be judged by the industry as whole, and not just by taken? the BBPA. We will be able to judge the success of their approach by changes in the relative balance of income Mr Davey: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We do on the two sides of the dispute, which has implications need to give the self-regulatory regime time to work, for the rate of closure within the industry. In effect, the and I pay tribute to him, and even to my hon. Friend proof of the pudding will be in the eating. the Member for Leeds North West—[HON.MEMBERS: The motion provides a mechanism for a professional, “Even?”] I say “even” because we do not always see eye comprehensive and inclusive judgment of whether those to eye on every measure. However, both my hon. Friends changes happen. If that mechanism does not work, the have campaigned very hard, and I can tell the House Minister, whether he likes it or not, will have no alternative that in my meeting with the BBPA, my hon. Friends’ but to introduce a statutory code that will be inclusive campaigns and the Select Committee reports were critical and representative of all bodies within the industry. to my being able to make it absolutely clear that, this time, the pubcos really had to come up with the toughest Question put and agreed to. self-regulatory regime imaginable, or else Parliament Resolved, would wish to take action. We have come up with the That this House believes that the Department for Business, toughest self-regulatory regime imaginable, but it needs Innovation and Skills’ proposals for reform of the pub industry time to work. I commend our response to the Select fall short of the undertaking given to the Business, Innovation Committee to the House. and Skills Committee in July 2010 and that only a statutory code of practice which includes a free-of-tie option with an open market rent review and an independent adjudicator will resolve the contractual problems between the pub companies and their 3.27 pm lessees; and calls on the Government to commission a review of Mr Bailey: A lot of points have been raised in the self-regulation of the pub industry in the Autumn of 2012 to be debate, and I will try to respond to them in a very brief conducted by an independent body approved by the Business, time. Innovation and Skills Committee. First, a number of Members have raised the issue of Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): On a point regulation. I wish to make it quite clear that the Select of order, Mr Speaker, of which I have given you and the Committee put the ball in the industry’s court to find an hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) appropriate level of regulation to address the problems notice. Hammersmith flyover in my constituency has that we highlighted. It has had any number of opportunities been closed for three weeks. Although we hope for good to do that and failed. news as early as today about the reopening, it is clearly The Committee is not instinctively a body of regulators. a serious matter for my constituents. The hon. Lady has It has a coalition majority, and at the time of the report convened a public meeting—nothing wrong with that—to it included a former publican, a former pub company discuss the matter, but she has advertised and convened owner and, I believe, a former brewery regional manager. it in my constituency. She has invited various public There was a level of expertise and historic involvement bodies, but not me, to the meeting to discuss these in the industry that meant the Committee would not matters—she has not invited me to be on the panel. favour excessive regulation. This goes beyond the ordinary trespassing that Members There are issues to consider about the brewers and sometimes commit. I have never heard of an event of their tenants and about the pub companies and their this kind. In reality, it means that the public bodies may licensees. An adequate consultation with all sectors of not attend, because the meeting is now party political. I the industry would have enabled those issues to be ask for your guidance, Mr Speaker. The hon. Lady is a teased out and the introduction of an appropriate regulatory new Member and might not know the protocols of the regime that would have addressed them sufficiently. House as well as others do. Now, the question is whether the Government will conduct such an inclusive consultation to ensure that Mr Speaker: I will restrict my understanding thus far, that takes place. and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for notice of Another issue that has been raised on many occasions his intention to raise the point of order. It will almost in the debate is the OFT verdict, which is a red herring. not be a matter of order for the Chair, but, reserving my The OFT did not give the pub companies clearance in position, I think it only right before I say anything their contractual relationships. It said that the matter further—I am sure he will accept this—to ask the hon. did not come within its remit. The Government have Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) used that as a basis for saying that we should not to offer her own thoughts, of which I have had some interfere. I find that rather strange, given the fact that notice, on the Floor of the House. Governments have historically introduced many statutes to deal with injustices and imbalances in contractual Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): Thank advantage. you very much, Mr Speaker. This public meeting is The Government’s response is therefore not sufficient, being held purely to help local residents. It is for Transport and I find the Minister’s approach to be somewhat for London and Hounslow and Hammersmith councils incoherent. On the one hand, he says he cannot interfere, to update local residents and help them. Frankly, that is but on the other he argues in the House that he is taking what I came into politics to do. 401 Pub Companies12 JANUARY 2012 Pub Companies 402

[Mary Macleod] Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab) rose—

I am extremely disappointed that the hon. Member Mr Speaker: Before we do so, I must, of course, take for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) has attempted to what I gather is a totally separate and unrelated point of threaten, intimidate and bully me into doing what he order from the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). wants and play political games. He knew what was happening—I told him at the earliest opportunity. I Ian Lucas: On a point of order, Mr Speaker, that is invited him to the meeting verbally and in writing. He indeed completely separate. In the previous debate, the said initially that he was happy with the plans for the Minister, speaking on behalf of the Government, expressly meeting. contradicted the content of the motion in an intervention I have worked well recently with my Labour Hounslow on me, but the Government did not oppose the motion council and expect to have a very positive working when it came to a vote. Can you offer me guidance on relationship with the new hon. Member for Feltham ascertaining the Government’s position on this matter? and Heston (Seema Malhotra). It is really sad that we cannot help our local residents without an hon. Member Mr Speaker: Thankfully, that is not a matter for the trying to stop us. We should work together for the good Chair. I have no influence over the conduct of the of our local residents and our constituencies. Government, the decisions they make about policy or the way in which they choose either to vote or not to vote. In saying that, I think that the hon. Gentleman Mr Slaughter rose— will hear my expression of relief.

Mr Speaker: Order. I assume the hon. Gentleman’s Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Further to that point point of order is on an unrelated matter. [Interruption.] of order, Mr Speaker. Notwithstanding what you have Order. Before the hon. Gentleman jumps to his feet, let just said, it is a matter of order that it is the custom of me say this: I am grateful to him for his notice and for the House for a vote to follow a voice. If the voice spoke his attempted point of order, and I am grateful to the in one direction, but did not follow that up with a vote, hon. Lady for what she has said to me via e-email and that would surely be disorderly. on the Floor of the House. I do not think this is a matter of order for the Chair; it concerns a matter that Mr Speaker: I think if somebody says one thing and is operational, outside of the Chamber of the House. I then votes in a different direction, that would be a would want to reiterate the exhortation to Members to breach of order. I think if an individual Member—be co-operate on matters affecting neighbouring constituencies that a Back Bencher or a Minister—gives an indication and to observe the customary courtesy of informing of a view, but chooses not to vote in the Division, that is other Members about actions and visits proposed in qualitatively in a different category. I have a sense another Member’s constituency. These are, however, coming on of a potentially stimulating but arcane and not rules of the House; they are conventions. I intend to preferably delayable exchange on this matter with the leave this matter here for today. I say this with no hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). Perhaps we discourtesy to any hon. Member, but because there is can now move to the second debate, which is of great pressing business of the House to which we need to interest to a great many Members, on parliamentary move. representation. 403 12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 404

Parliamentary Representation recommendations was that there should be a debate on the Floor of the House every two years to review [Relevant documents: The Final Report from the Speaker’s progress. Well, we are one day out, but in parliamentary Conference (on Parliamentary Representation), Session terms I think that that is pretty close. 2009-10, HC 239-I, the First Special Report from the Committee, Session 2009-10, HC 449, and the Government The second reason for holding the debate is that, response, Session 2009-10, Cm 7824.] although this Parliament is more diverse than previous ones, we still have some way to go before the House of Commons reflects the population more closely. Only 3.37 pm 22% of MPs are women and only 4% are from an ethnic Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I beg to minority, and the proportion of those who have a move, disability or are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender falls far short of the numbers in society. Establishing a That this House welcomes the fact that there are now more lasting improvement in the diversity of Parliament, women hon. Members and hon. Members from Black, Asian and minority ethnic communities than in any previous Parliament; however, requires cultural change. There is no quick fix: notes that the need for greater diversity in the House has been it is necessary to keep making the arguments and to accepted by the leadership of the three main political parties at keep refocusing people’s minds on the need to tackle Westminster; is concerned that increased competition for seats at under-representation. the 2015 General Election may leave under-represented groups The third reason for the debate is that the gatekeepers more poorly represented among approved candidates, and in the to the selection of MPs, the political parties, have House thereafter, unless mechanisms are employed to tackle continuing inequalities during candidate selection; and calls on already begun to select their candidates for the 2015 the Government and political parties to fulfil commitments made general election. That election will be accompanied by a in response to the Speaker’s Conference (on Parliamentary reduction in the number of MPs, and it is therefore Representation) in 2010, including the commitment to secure the important that the leaders of the political parties are publication by all parties of diversity data on candidate selections. reminded of the commitments that they made to the I thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Backbench Business Speaker’s Conference to take action to improve the Committee for allowing us time this afternoon to debate diversity of candidates. At the 2015 election, established the important issue of the representation of this House. MPs will have to fight each other for their seats, and If Parliament and, indeed, the Government are to be those who lose in the selection process could be promised successful and to be able to make the best decisions for a vacant seat elsewhere. The parties might therefore be the country, the people taking those decisions need tempted to suspend their attempts to select candidates more closely to reflect the society we purport to represent. from different backgrounds, preferring instead to look I make that point because the desire for a Parliament after existing MPs. It could therefore be harder for made up of Members from a wide range of backgrounds candidates from under-represented groups to be selected. comes not from some political correctness, but from the As a result, the next Parliament could be even less belief that a Parliament that does not reflect society will diverse than this one. not be effective. Members who do not think that could happen need The proposal in the coalition agreement to give look only at the 2005 election in Scotland, when we anonymity to people charged with rape horrified female faced the abolition of 13 seats. The Labour party’s use MPs from all political parties, who united to force the of all-women shortlists was suspended in Scotland, and Government to back down. If only one or two MPs had the number of women MPs dropped. At the UK election objected, would the coalition have changed its mind? that year, however, for the first time in history more Probably not. But the critical mass of female MPs, than 50% of the new Labour intake were women. That speaking with a common voice, made the Government shows that mechanisms such as all-women shortlists realise they had got things badly wrong. work, and that when they stop operating the number of women who are selected, and consequently elected, There should be a place in this mother of Parliaments drops. for individuals from all sections of society. We should ask ourselves why certain groups are under-represented. Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): As someone The reason is not that the electorate will not vote for who benefited from an all-women shortlist, I wonder women, people with disabilities, people who are gay or whether my hon. Friend would go further and address people from ethnic minorities—they clearly will; otherwise the issue for working-class women. Does she support many of us would not be here—but that political parties my view that we should have a ceiling on the amount do not choose enough candidates from diverse backgrounds that a candidate can spend during the election process, to fight winnable seats. Furthermore, if not enough of and that they should have to declare donations? those candidates want to become an MP, we must examine how we do our business and how we run our Dame Anne Begg: My hon. Friend makes a very good politics and our Parliament to identify the barriers. point. There are enormous economic barriers that prevent Many of those people would make excellent MPs, and not only women but people from lower socio-economic the loss of their expertise and talents results in a diminished groups from getting into Parliament. The political parties Parliament. Such a Parliament could lose legitimacy; should certainly look at her suggestion in relation to indeed, it might never have had legitimacy because it their selection process, and consider capping the amount had never been properly representative. that can be spent. At the moment, it can get into the thousands, and that can rule out many candidates. Why are we having a debate on this subject, more than three years away from the next general election? Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I want to add some The timing is pertinent for three reasons. Two years statistics to those that my hon. Friend has given. In ago yesterday, the final report from the Speaker’s Wales, in 2001, when all-women shortlists legally had to Conference on representation was published. One of its be suspended, the Labour party had to select 10 candidates 405 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 406

[Chris Bryant] A key recommendation of the Speaker’s Conference that remains unresolved is on political parties publishing for seats in which the sitting Member of Parliament was diversity data relating to candidates’ selection. It is retiring. In every single case, it selected a man. Does not worth setting out again the reason the conference thought that highlight the problem of what happens if there is this was so important. not an all-women shortlist? We recommended the creation of a formal monitoring scheme, requiring political parties to publish anonymised Dame Anne Begg: Indeed. That ties in with my fear data on the gender, ethnic background and other for the 2015 election—that the advances we have made characteristics of candidates selected. The work people could start to be reversed. While huge advances were did before putting themselves forward might be one of made on the representation of women in the 1997 those characteristics. Knowing that the parties already Parliament because of the use of all-women shortlists, hold this type of information, the conference gathered the number of women in Parliament dropped after the it from them and published it in the six months preceding 2001 election. That happened not just in Wales but the general election. We are very grateful for the support across the whole country, because this mechanism was of the parties and their leaders in enabling this to not available to the Labour party to use in its election happen, which shows that it can be done easily. process. We also secured an amendment to the Equality Bill—now Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): section 106 of the Equality Act 2010—to make such Our constituents tend to be interested in the skills and monitoring permanent. Since the election and the end experience of Members of Parliament and candidates, of the conference, however, the central publication of and they are interested in their occupational background— data has stopped. Section 106 of the Equality Act has perhaps even more than in their membership of particular not yet commenced, and the Minister might want to social groups or minority groups. In that regard, why reflect on that. I still believe that a formal publication does the hon. Lady think that the number of MPs from scheme for this data is essential. Transparency forces manual worker groups and from professional groups the issue up the agenda as it enables the parties to has declined since 1979, and what can we do about it? compare their performance and challenge each other to do better. The mechanisms of publication require Dame Anne Begg: The hon. Gentleman makes an comparatively little effort, and there is a consensus that interesting point. This is a problem not just for the greater transparency would be helpful. To make the lower socio-economic groups, for whom the economic process effective, the monitoring scheme needs to be costs of putting themselves forward as a candidate can structured so that it is clear that the data from each of be prohibitive. Those working in the professions are the parties is directly comparable, that precisely the often too busy doing their daily work, so they might not same information is given in each case and that it is have enough time to invest in politics, making it difficult reported within the same time scale. to build up the reputation they need to become the kind of candidate of whom the “selectorate”—the party I have been trying to obtain information from the members—would approve. The professionals might not political parties for nearly six months, with few results. have been seen knocking on doors or delivering leaflets, An honourable mention should go to the Green party, which puts them at a disadvantage in the selection which provided information following the initial request, process. although the fact that the party has only one MP may have made that easier. My most recent letter was sent to I strongly believe that we should have a Parliament of the party leaders just before the Christmas recess. I all the talents, with people from different and varied thought that if I went to the top I might receive an backgrounds. Although this Parliament might be more answer, but to date I have received only one substantive diverse in terms of ethnicity and gender, there might reply, from the Deputy Prime Minister: all credit to have been a narrowing of the routes whereby people are him. able to get into Parliament—perhaps a drift towards the professional politician. Those involved in politics are Given that, I am sorry to say, the Liberal Democrats’ more likely to be selected than those who have been record in terms of the diversity of the MPs is the getting on with their life by doing another job. poorest among the main political parties, it is heartening I believe that the key to getting more people from to know that the Deputy Prime Minister is taking under-represented groups into Parliament is to seriously the need to rebalance his party’s parliamentary improve the supply side, which perhaps answers the representation. It is also good to know that the Liberal question of the hon. Member for South West Wiltshire Democrats finally recognise that work needs to be done (Dr Murrison). This means identifying and encouraging on the supply side, and that mechanisms are needed to people from these groups to think about a life in politics. encourage people from a variety of backgrounds to put Some welcome progress has been made in dealing with themselves forward. I hope that the 40 candidates identified some of the supply-side barriers—for example, the by the Liberal Democrats will eventually be selected for establishment of the Commons nursery, making Parliament seats where they have some prospect of being elected—for more accessible both physically and culturally and the it is not good enough to select candidates for all the Government’s commitment to develop a strategy for unwinnable seats; they must be selected for the winnable access to elected office. Further progress is still required, ones as well—and I hope that, having been named and however, on the House’s sitting hours and on recognition shamed, the other party leaders will respond soon with of family life in the rules operated by the Independent commitments to do all in their power to demonstrate Parliamentary Standards Authority. Normal people with that they too are taking the issue seriously. normal family lives have to feel that they, too, could be Given that the Speaker’s Conference no longer exists, an MP. I think we are still some way from achieving central management and guidance are required in regard that. to the provision of this information. It would be helpful 407 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 408 if the Minister could tell us what progress has been Dame Anne Begg: I am aware of the work my right made in that regard, and whether her Department hon. Friend has been doing in encouraging people from might be able to act. lower socio-economic groups to put themselves forward, I believe that parties must adopt specific mechanisms which does, of course, take money. I would like to see to improve the diversity of their MPs. Although I think how the access to public life fund works for disabled the Labour party has proved that all-women shortlists people. Perhaps the Minister will tell us a little more have been effective, I appreciate that that may not be the about how it will work in practice? All these routes way in which other political parties wish to proceed—which should be open, but that is not a responsibility of is fine as long as they develop their own mechanisms to Government alone; political parties might also look at address the shortfall, rather than arguing that candidates how they finance candidates, and they might be funded from the under-represented groups would somehow in order to do that work. We suggested that in the suddenly appear if only they were good enough. Speaker’s Conference report. As has already been mentioned, one category in There is some good news to report, but there is still a particular is still under-represented in this House. I long way to go in achieving a fully representative Parliament refer to members of the lower socio-economic groups. in this country. It will not happen by accident or because It is likely that disabled people will also belong to that large numbers of people from disadvantaged groups category. The cost of putting oneself forward for selection suddenly have a burning desire to be an MP and will be is prohibitive for anyone who does not have a reasonable able to leap over all the economic and practical barriers income, and I urge the political parties to address that to get selected as a candidate for one of the political issue as well. I hope that some suggestions will be made parties, which to many remain secret societies, and then later this afternoon. arrive here in Parliament in a blaze of glory. Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): Does the hon. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): Does the hon. Lady agree that one of the biggest disadvantages a man Lady agree that both people with manual backgrounds from a working-class background in one of our large and those in the professions are discouraged from putting inner cities might face is the existence of all-women themselves forward by awkward economic considerations? shortlists, as they may well feel that their route to Those in manual trades cannot afford the whole process joining us in this place is closed before they even start? of campaigning, taking time off and so forth, while those in the professions cannot afford to give up the salaries to which they have become accustomed. Dame Anne Begg: I would accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument if every seat had an all-women shortlist, but only 50% of Labour seats has an all-women shortlist, so Dame Anne Begg: That is an excellent point, which the man to whom he refers has access to 50% of the may explain some of the narrowing of the backgrounds seats. This issue is not just about women or people from of some of the people who are now trying to stand for ethnic minorities; it is also about people with different Parliament. It is crucial for work to be done to deal with backgrounds and life experiences. The political parties that. We, as political party animals ourselves, should be should therefore be encouraging that man and helping spotting people’s talents and encouraging them. Many him, and perhaps providing some funding to allow him people out there have never dreamt of being Members to get selected in the seats that are available. That is not of Parliament, but we know that given the right chances happening at present, but it should happen. and the right encouragement they would make excellent MPs, and we diminish this place by not giving them Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): such encouragement. Some women are a bit more diffident My hon. Friend might also say to the hon. Member for than many men, and may need that extra push. Once Bury North (Mr Nuttall) that historically it was the they have bitten the bullet and put themselves forward practice of the Conservative party to have all-male they may make excellent candidates and excellent MPs, shortlists. What was the disadvantage to the men with and be a credit to their parties. manual skills in those all-male shortlists? I congratulate the Government on going some way to help disabled people to overcome the financial barrier Dame Anne Begg: Indeed, and work has been done which may exist by means of their access to public life on the all-male shortlists of all political parties in the fund, which I understand is due to be launched next last general election. month. The Minister may want to say something about It will take a culture change and a lot of hard work that as well. However, although the fund will provide before the people out there can look at us in here and financial help with the extra costs of having a disability, say, “They represent me.” I hope Members will agree there will still be the basic cost of becoming and being a that that work needs to continue. candidate, which can be prohibitive for many people. Mr Speaker: In view of the extensive interest in this Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): My hon. debate, I have had to limit the time for Back-Bench Friend is clearly immensely passionate and knowledgeable speeches still further, from eight minutes to six. about this subject. She mentions the different socio- economic backgrounds of people entering Parliament, 3.59 pm and she will be aware that nowadays one of the main routes to becoming an MP is working in Parliament, Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): First, may I thank perhaps on an internship, many of which are unpaid. you, Mr Speaker, for convening the Speaker’s Conference Does she therefore support the access to public life and giving it your support? I think that has made a huge fund, which could offer financial assistance to help difference. I also thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen people to come and work in Parliament? South (Dame Anne Begg) for the careful tone in which 409 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 410

[Adam Afriyie] Adam Afriyie: We live in a wonderful world where both parties have progressed enormously. she presented the conference findings and for recognising The Conservative party is interesting, in that it tends that parties may strive in different ways to achieve the to take slightly more time to respond to society and to outcome that all Members want, which is a more diverse, the change in social mores, which is partly because we representative-looking Parliament. That Parliament might are conservatives by nature—with a big C and a small c. not be proportional to the exact numbers of the various However, over time the party does seem to progress groups in society, but we must have a Parliament that is quite rapidly, once it gets the gist of things and begins in touch with the people it serves and that is able to to respond to and reflect the society around it. It is understand and feel the issues that are important to the interesting to note that the Conservative party was the public. first party to elect a Jewish Prime Minister, and a I made a pledge to myself that I would seldom talk bachelor as a leader of the party; and of course, it about issues of race, ethnic minorities and diversity in elected the first female Prime Minister and leader of the front-line politics, and I made that commitment for two party. We will see what the future holds, but interestingly, or three key reasons: first, and not least, because I do despite some of the criticisms of the party, in many not think that race actually exists in biological, genetic ways it has been quicker to reflect the make-up of or evolutionary terms anyway. Above that, categorising society, certainly in its leadership. people into clear groups can often be more divisive than allowing things to evolve to begin to reflect a nation Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I wanted to over time. help the hon. Gentleman slightly by pointing out that I have broken that pledge today because, as the first he omitted to mention that his party was also the first to black Conservative MP in the party’s history, I thought elect an out gay woman as the leader of any party I would share one or two insights into my journey here, within the UK. It became that when Ruth Davidson the barriers and obstacles I have met, and the approach was elected as the Scottish Conservative leader. that can be adopted by political parties and Parliament Adam Afriyie: That is absolutely spot on. Sometimes in future. I shall try to do so as quickly as I can within the image projected is not quite the same as the reality the six-minute limit. I am happy to take one or two of how the Conservative party functions and, more interventions—which may help to some degree. importantly, the results it delivers. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I congratulate my At the last election, my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Friend. He does a fantastic job for his constituents North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) and I were the and I hear fabulous reports about him at all times. only two ethnic minority—if hon. Members wish to box us in in that way—Conservative Members of this Adam Afriyie: I am sure I would flush up if I was able House, but our number has now increased significantly to; I thank my hon. Friend very much for his intervention. to 12. That occurred not through positive discrimination—it As I said, I want to share some insights and experience, was not done through all-black, all-black-and-ethnic- but if the House will bear with me I will make a couple minority shortlists or all-female shortlists—but by an of points very crudely because I do not have time to put organic process; it was an evolution that gradually them more subtly; I hope the House will understand reflected the society around us, and I am delighted at that they are well intentioned, and that if I had more those results. There are now 49, rather than 17, women time I would elaborate slightly further. representing the Conservatives in this place, which is a A key reason why I joined the Conservative party, huge step forward, and it has been made without the about which I will say a few words in a moment, is that I need for those draconian, divisive and often counter- felt that during the ’80s the Labour party was quite productive measures. patronising towards ethnic minorities. There was a sense However, there is a generational lag, which we must, on the part of the incumbents in politics—those with to some degree, accept. Equally, if any hon. Member power—that ethnic minority groups were somehow hapless here was to move to another country and seek, as an and weak and needed all the support and help they adult, to become a Member of the Parliament of that could get, and all sorts of extra support in order simply nation, it is unlikely that that would happen or it would to compete. I rejected that prognosis—[Interruption.] be exceptional if it did. There are so many ways in Please bear with me: I am putting this very briskly; with which we can split society into groups—by gender, skin more time I would put it more subtly. I rejected that colour, sexuality, disability, socio-economic background notion because, irrespective of which group in society and so on. Hon. Members from all parties in this House one comes from—whatever one’s physical or socio-economic have a joint desire to see this place be more representative characteristics, whatever one’s background or heritage— of the country we serve. My biggest plea today is that everybody is equal. It is a question of whether the we do not rush in and embrace quotas—all-women or opportunity exists to get involved in the political process all-black shortlists, or shortlists with only people with and to be recognised for ones innate, equal abilities. disabilities on them—because such an approach is counter- That is part of the reason why I joined the Conservative productive. In a way, it ingrains a sense that there is an party, and something to reflect on. elite and that somehow these hapless groups have to Chris Bryant: By way of counterpart, I joined the have this extra special support, and it alienates others. Labour party because I found that the Conservative That form of “groupism” in society is, in many ways, party was not just patronising about homosexuals, but more dangerous than a short-term under-representation downright dismissive and aggressively so, and used the over a period of a few years. full force of the law and of Parliament to legislate that I do have a dream that this place will be more homosexual relationships were nothing other than “a representative of the nation at large—that is happening pretended family relationship”. at a rate of knots in most parties and I hope it will 411 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 412 continue. But if I was to urge anything, from my own in future. It is more than likely that under the pressure experience, I would urge us not have a knee-jerk reaction for places, parties will revert to the type described in the and have exclusively feature-based shortlists at this time. study I cited, and there will be an expectation that progress on equality should be delayed. 4.7 pm What can be done to increase the representation of women, ethnic minorities and people with disabilities? Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): I First, this House must continue to reform itself so that congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen it becomes a place in which ordinary people feel that South (Dame Anne Begg) on securing this debate. May they can be productive, effective and able to sustain a I say to the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), private life alongside a parliamentary and constituency for whom I have great respect, that the Fawcett Society life. Further reform of the hours, the calendar and estimates that at the current rate of progress it would procedures must be undertaken, and I am glad that we take 14 Parliaments—nearly 70 years—to get equality, will have an opportunity to do that this year. so he may need to reconsider his view? We must also ensure that our parties remain resolute I understand that there have been 4,897 MPs since in the aims they have all espoused of greater equality of 1918, of whom just 366 have been women, including the representation. That means constant vigilance and analysis 142 serving today. When I was elected in 1987, this place of how selections are progressing, financial help for was not a comfortable place for women. Sexist behaviour those who need it, and the creation of level playing and intimidation were rife, as was documented by the fields so that people from diverse backgrounds can redoubtable Tory MP Teresa Gorman, who had to put come forward, attend all the selection conferences and her age back by 10 years to get selected. There were no stand a fair chance. shrinking violets in the 1987 intake, but there was no women’s agenda either. The House was clearly deeply Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): As a new Member, unrepresentative of society as a whole, and I often said I sat in the Members centre and beside me was another that it was a cross between a boys public school and a new Member, from the Opposition. I watched and was working men’s club. alarmed that she spent two and a half hours on the So some of us were very much committed to making telephone from the Members centre trying to find great changes, and we encouraged others to stand. accommodation and failing. In the end I said, “What’s During the 1980s and 1990s the number of women the problem?” and she said, “I’ve just got no money left candidates did rise significantly, but of course they did and I can’t live.” That is wrong and we must put it right not get elected because they were in the unwinnable as soon as possible. seats. We Labour women knew that we had to get our hands on the seats where sitting Members were retiring Dame Joan Ruddock: I support the hon. Gentleman or the seats that were targets for our party and likely to absolutely. Of course, we had the MPs’ expenses scandal be won. For that sole reason, we adopted the all-women and of course there were abuses, but we have gone in a shortlists. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen direction that means that it is very difficult for people of South (Dame Anne Begg) said, when they were challenged, ordinary means to support a second home and everything the number of women MPs of course fell back in 2001 that goes with being an effective MP.The hon. Gentleman after the tremendous progress of 1997. is absolutely right that that is yet another reason why it Following the 2001 election a report was produced by will be increasingly difficult to get the equal representation Laura Shepherd-Robinson and Joni Lovenduski, and I in this House that we all seek. want to refer to their findings as they are so relevant. Recent experience from all parties demonstrates that They stated: only determined positive action can produce the results “Although fewer women than men come forward for selection, that we need. When sitting MPs are displaced as a result women are not selected in proportion to the numbers…Instances of the boundary changes and the reduction in numbers, of overt discrimination…occurred to a greater or lesser extent in that will be much more difficult. All-women shortlists all the political parties…There exists a self-perpetuating male will have to continue in the Labour party and, frankly, I candidate syndrome whereby selectorates choose candidates that match their pre-conceived idea of what an MP ‘should be like’—i.e. think it must be obvious to the other parties that that is like the last one…‘Favourite sons’ who are virtually guaranteed the only mechanism to have delivered really big numbers. selection before the process even starts were reported as a problem There are two possible ways in which a group’s interests in all the political parties…Ethnic minority women faced additional can be represented—by the presence of its members in problems…Justification for this was…that voters would discriminate the decision-making process or simply by having its against the candidate and selecting them was therefore ‘too much of a risk’.” interests taken into account in that process. History shows that the interests of women, ethnic minorities, Those findings are highly relevant today, because we other minorities and those with disabilities have not still have female representation of only 22% from a been fully taken into account at any time, and if we do population of 51%, and ethnic minority representation not continue to assert our rights to direct representation, of less than 5% from a population of more than 10%. our numbers will fall and our democracy will be much People with disabilities are hardly represented at all, the poorer. even though they are provided with the incredible role models of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South and my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, 4.15 pm Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett). Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): It is a great As the motion says, pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Lewisham, “increased competition for seats…may leave under-represented Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock), who has long been a groups more poorly represented” campaigner on this issue. I warmly welcome the debate, 413 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 414

[Jo Swinson] There has been a lot of progress that we should celebrate. Recommendation 56 that civil partnership which comes at a timely juncture two years after the ceremonies should be allowed to be held in the House publication of the Speaker’s Conference report. I was has been actioned. Indeed, I think the hon. Member for proud to serve as a member of the Speaker’s Conference Rhondda (Chris Bryant) might have been the first to and would like to place on record my thanks to you, take advantage of that change. [Interruption.] Perhaps Mr Speaker, and to your predecessor, for your chairmanship he was not the first but there have been several, which of it. I thank also the hon. Member for Aberdeen South is great. (Dame Anne Begg), who was a marvellous vice-Chair Recommendation 51, about having a nursery and and did so much work to produce the report and body crèche within the House of Commons, has been of work that resulted. implemented. That facility is used by many Members I It is absolutely vital that we address these issues of know, and is very welcome. Even the Independent representation, for some of the reasons that have already Parliamentary Standards Authority, which does not been outlined, such as the legitimacy that this Chamber always have a good reputation in the House, has can have in the real world out there. There is also the implemented recommendation 52, which allows Members loss of talent from which we suffer because there are to take part of their salary in the form of child care people out there who would make fantastic Members of vouchers. Previously, that option had long been open to Parliament but who at the moment do not think they other members of staff in the House but not to MPs. could come here. The evidence from business and elsewhere There has been progress through the coalition agreement shows that diverse teams work better, and that is as true on the establishment of a disability democracy fund, here for MPs on Select Committees and in Government but I hope the Minister will say more about where and Opposition teams as anywhere else. exactly that has got to. I know there was a consultation Let me touch on some of the developments we have last year and it would be good to know when that will seen since the Speaker’s Conference report and highlight come to fruition. some of the areas that have not yet been acted on. A few There is also the recommendation that section 141 of Members have spoken about the background of people the Mental Health Act 1983 should be abolished to who come to this place as Members. In 1979, 3% came prevent discrimination against Members who have mental from a political organiser background, but that figure health problems and have been sectioned, who currently rose to 14% in 2010. are not able to retain their seat. I understand that there Thanks to the right hon. Member for Salford and is a private Member’s Bill before the other place, but I Eccles (Hazel Blears) and the hon. Member for Lancaster should welcome any response from the Government and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), whom I have worked about their commitment to the issue. alongside, there is now the Speaker’s parliamentary placement scheme. We are grateful to you, Mr Speaker, Mr Sam Gyimah (East Surrey) (Con): I welcome the for supporting the scheme and to the House of Commons points the hon. Lady is making about what Parliament Commission for finding some initial seed funding, which as an institution should be doing to lower the barriers has been backed up by generous support from the for entry to the House, and to teach people who want to private sector. Of course, we would still encourage more be Members of Parliament the rules of the game, but private sector companies to get on board and support does not the prime responsibility fall on political parties? the scheme, which is enabling us to open up internships They need to make sure that they improve representation. and parliamentary placements to people who would not On the Conservative side the numbers of women, and otherwise have the means to come here and experience certainly of non-white candidates, increased substantially working in Parliament. I hope that some of those at the 2010 election, but that was because of the efforts individuals will go on to work in different roles within of the party rather than of Parliament as an institution. politics. Indeed, I look forward to the day when one of them sits on these green Benches. Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman is right. That point I am fortunate to be participating in the scheme and I is vital, and I shall refer briefly to parties later. have a wonderful young woman in my office, Nyree Progress has been less good on other recommendations. Barrett-Hendricks, who is bright, personable and hugely Recommendation 4 is that Parliament’s education service enthusiastic, but who would never have had the opportunity should have its objectives changed so that it explicitly to come and work in Parliament otherwise. I very much encourages a wider range of people to become candidates. hope that the scheme will be able to expand in future Unfortunately, that recommendation has not been accepted and be part of the solution to dealing with the issue of by Parliament; a response to a parliamentary question background. Clearly, however, much more needs to be was that it could be effected under existing objectives. done. That does not go far enough. When someone comes here for a tour of the House it is one of the most Dame Anne Begg: Will the hon. Lady also pay tribute opportune times to ask them why they do not consider to organisations such as Operation Black Vote, which standing for Parliament and becoming an MP. That is does a very similar thing to help people gain experience the moment when there may be the most inspiration, who might then consider standing for Parliament? and we should make that an explicit objective of the education service. Jo Swinson: The hon. Lady makes a very good point; The hon. Member for Aberdeen South touched on I certainly pay tribute to Operation Black Vote, with recommendation 5; she talked about political parties which I have also worked in previous years and had being honest in publishing exactly where they are at in people shadow me, and I know that many other Members terms of candidate selection. That monitoring data have done the same. should be in the public domain so that researchers can 415 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 416 analyse it and use it to show where some of the issues Conference and I hope that the recommendations can are. That still has to be put into action by all the parties, be followed through and that it will be possible to make although some have made more progress than others. I progress. hope that today’s debate may encourage more movement, In order to avoid repetition, I say at the beginning although we should congratulate the hon. Lady on that the issues surrounding the next general election, managing to say something positive about the Deputy not only the lower number of Members of Parliament, Prime Minister—I hope she did not find it too difficult— but the dramatic boundary changes, present a challenge and I am delighted that he responded in full to her for all political parties. We need to appeal to them to letter. take the matter very seriously if we are not to take a step backwards on gender, on sexuality, on ethnicity and on Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): I am grateful disability. I am genuinely deeply worried. I hope that to the hon. Lady for giving way; I could not resist the Access to Public Life Fund and the initiative of my intervening. She will be aware that the Speaker’s right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles parliamentary placement scheme has been included by (Hazel Blears) on internships will assist. the Deputy Prime Minister in the coalition’s social On a lighter note, I think that we have made progress mobility strategy. On that basis, does she agree that if in the 25 years since I came to the House. I was asked the Government wish to take some credit for that, they when I first came in with my dog whether there would might also consider making some financial contribution? be a problem with animal noises, and I gave an assurance that the dog would not be disturbed at all by the kind of Jo Swinson: As usual, the right hon. Lady puts her thing that he was likely to hear in Prime Minister’s point eloquently. I believe there is an event for the social questions at that time. I did, however, face the enormous mobility strategy this evening, so I may have the opportunity problem of persuading people that additional resources to bend the ear of individuals about it. would make it possible to work on equal terms. It was a I want to talk a little about what the Liberal Democrats fiasco. We had a working party between the two Houses have been doing, because I accept the point made by the under the chairmanship of Lord Jenkins, as he became. hon. Member for Aberdeen South that we do not have The recommendations had to be voted on on the Floor good enough representation. I have been working on of the House. We have come a long way since that the issue in the party for 10 years, with some success, terrible embarrassment. One Member, who is still in the but equality guarantees are not always guarantees of House, said to me, “You’re very lucky to get these extra seats. In the last Parliament, half the seats where a Lib resources.” I said, “I’ll swap you any time.” Dem MP was standing down selected a woman candidate, without positive discrimination mechanisms, but that Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend may be interested did not result in the election of those individuals. That to hear that when I was helping to organise the memorial is certainly one of the difficulties with the measures that service for John Smith at Westminster abbey and I said are implemented, but I am looking forward to attending, that we would need a bowl of water put out for my right on Sunday, a candidate leadership programme weekend hon. Friend’s dog, the usher said, “I’m not putting a to meet 40 inspiring candidates, whose biographies I bowl out for any bloody socialist’s dog.” have read. I am sure that will help to yield results in future. Mr Blunkett: All I can say is that I wish he had not What next? I shall briefly make two points, because I discriminated on political grounds. know time is pressing. First, recommendation 54 of the There are major challenges facing us. The nature of Speaker’s Conference urges changes in our sitting hours. the Palace of Westminster has changed to some degree, Over the next few months the House collectively has the but not enough. It is not quite the old boys’ club that it chance to do something about that, when the Procedure was when my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Committee report comes before us for debate. I very Deptford (Dame Joan Ruddock) and I joined in 1987, much hope that Members will bear that recommendation but people still have in their minds a major psychological in mind and vote accordingly. barrier about what they will experience here. There are Secondly, as well as a debate every two years, we need also practical barriers, which have been referred to, in to go further and think about a mechanism for regularly the procedures of the House. I hope that we can be holding the Government, the House and the parties to more radical in the next three and a half years than we account. For example, we might consider something have been in the 25 that I have been here. Unless we like the questions we have in the Chamber to the Electoral change the way we vote, the knowledge about votes, the Commission and the House of Commons Commission way in which the day is organised and the support for on a five-weekly basis. families, we will not have the diversity and the reflection of society that all of us in this House want. 4.23 pm I congratulate those who have broken through even bigger barriers than I have been able to challenge in my Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and life. To win a by-election as a member of an ethnic Hillsborough) (Lab): I apologise to you, Mr Speaker, to minority is a real step forward. Reflecting on the years the Minister and to the House if I am not able to be gone by, I think that it has been shown that the way in here at the conclusion of the debate. which society gradually changes is reflected here, but we I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen have a role in accelerating that change by the way we South (Dame Anne Begg), not only on securing the behave. debate but on the work she did under your patronage, The thing that I have probably done best in my public Mr Speaker, leading the Speaker’s Conference. Some of life and am most proud of is not something from my us in the House today spent well over a year of our eight years as a Cabinet Minister or from my time as lives—not full-time, but it seemed a lot—on the Speaker’s leader of a council. It is having changed attitudes outside— 417 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 418

[Mr Blunkett] overcame. [Interruption.] I now have to put my glasses on—my diversity is something to do with age as well as the way that people perceive not only others but, sometimes, gender. themselves. That is a comfort when things go badly We have come a long way since Lady Thatcher, but wrong. there is still a lot to do, which is why we are having this I agree that we need to revisit the way in which we debate. Each party is addressing diversity in its own encourage diversity in supporting Members. I have to way, but it is absolutely clear to me, having listened to pay tribute—I know that it is not fashionable—to the the debate this afternoon, that everyone is committed to Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in relation it. It is important to say that it is not right to think that to disability issues. It has been extremely understanding there can be one solution for all parties. Each party has and helpful in a way that I hope will be reflected in different political philosophies and it is inevitable that further revisions to support family life, particularly in we will have different ways of approaching the diversity terms of gender challenges. I look forward to IPSA issue. The Labour party has dealt with it through all-women responding to that challenge. shortlists and quotas and has had its success as a It is important that the Government are able to result—of course it has; they are all-women shortlists—but respond too. I think that Departments have improved. I I do not believe that that is a desirable way of introducing hope that the Office for Disability Issues will continue more women into Parliament. and will be able to make progress, along with the Access to Public Life Fund. However, there are still ingrained Adam Afriyie: In all frankness, had there been all-black challenges in terms of covert discrimination. There is shortlists or anything of that sort in the Conservative no question but that people are sometimes grumpy party, I can honestly say that I would never have applied about being expected to go the extra mile to help those and made my way to this place, because one’s whole life facing a challenge that is perfectly manageable and can is based on achieving things through one’s own abilities, be overcome with a bit of thought. People do not like to talents and effort, and I would have found it very talk about it; they do not even like to think about it; but, difficult indeed to have been put on a list based on a believe me, they do behave in quite extraordinary ways. physical characteristic. What I want to emphasise this afternoon is that we must go right back to the way we develop an understanding Amber Rudd: I thank my hon. Friend for his of citizenship in schools and persuade the Secretary of contribution—it is always nice to have one’s views confirmed State for Education, even at this late stage, not to in so eloquent a way. downgrade the programme we put in place 10 years ago Where are we now? Some 16% of Conservative MPs and instead to build upon it. It would be an irony are women. Only 12% of Liberal Democrat MPs are indeed if newcomers to this country who were becoming women, but it is nice to hear that the Deputy Prime naturalised were more savvy about politics and better Minister has that in his sights. The figure for the Labour able to get to this House than the population as a whole party is 32%, which brings us to an average of 22%. I because they had experienced the necessity of passing believe that the figures for the parties masks a very the dreaded test. Once we have done that and we have significant success for the Conservative party in introducing continued to change the nature of our politics and the more women. It was suggested earlier that the Conservative way we speak to each another, we might get even more party effectively had all-male shortlists before, and those progress within political parties. of us who have followed party selections and elections My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona to Parliament for some time were slightly surprised at Mactaggart) has kindly indicated—I have no buzzer—that the 2001 general election when only one of the 26 new I have only a few seconds left, so I will bring my Conservative Members elected was a woman. However, comments to an end. Political parties have made progress, from that very low base the party has made a tremendous as has been mentioned this afternoon, but, my goodness, change, and I think that the evidence for that change is there are still major blockages. Unless the political the fact that we could achieve it by persuasion, nudge parties take a lead, how can we expect the nation as a and training. whole to do so? Between 2005 and 2010, we had a clear strategy to deal with the issue. We had an organisation called 4.30 pm women2win— Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak in this important The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury debate. I feel very strongly, as I know do many fellow (Mr Brooks Newmark): Hear, hear! Members, that it is important to raise diversity issues constantly in the House in order to get a better Amber Rudd: It was ably supported by my hon. outcome for everyone. I saw a very good film this week Friend—who is here and a man; it is always nice to have about a young woman who was very clear and focused a man stand up in support of more women in on what she wanted to achieve, despite the obstacles Parliament—by Baroness Jenkin and by my right hon. in front of her. She became a Member of Parliament Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), who is and then Prime Minister. As we reflect on the issues we of course the Home Secretary. That organisation did an can address in order to raise diversity in the House, I enormous amount in mentoring and training and, if I feel certain that many people who see that film, may say so, in persuading the Conservative party to whatever their politics, will be as shocked as I was at the improve the training of those who make the selection, sight of one woman among so many men. The film because they also need to understand that there are shows very clearly the difficulties she faced but nevertheless different types of MP. 419 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 420

Dame Anne Begg: I appreciate that all-women shortlists “What is the problem? Why are we not getting more are not for the Conservative party, and that great strides women, more people from ethnic minorities and more forward were taken at the general election, but the disabled people? And what can we do to support them lesson from the Labour party is that if such pressure is so that they are equally valued and equally selected in a not kept up, and if the mechanisms that the hon. Lady selection process?” Let us not surrender. Let us not describes, which the Conservative party put in place approach the matter in terms of quotas. Let us look at ahead of the 2010 election, are not repeated at the next the root of the problem and, in that way, try to encourage election and the one after that, the danger is that things more people to come through and, like us, become will go backwards. Members of Parliament.

Amber Rudd: I agree. It is absolutely essential that the 4.39 pm item remains at the top of the agenda for all political Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): I was proud to parties, but my point is that my political party will not, I serve as a member of the Speaker’s Conference. I apologise believe, be introducing all-women shortlists. Most of to the House for the fact that I will not be here at the my colleagues agree with that, because it is not the only end of the debate, because I shall be chairing a charity way to achieve this much-needed increase in the diversity function. of representation. All hon. Members have agreed that a more representative After the 2010 election, we had 147 new Conservative Parliament is better for politics, above all because of the MPs, of whom 36—or 25% of the new intake—were issue of justice and so that everybody has an equal women. Now, 25% representation is a big step up from chance of being elected. It builds people’s confidence in the 9% that we had before 2010, so that approach has democracy to see people such as me in Parliament. It been a tremendous success, and we have achieved it also, and I do not think that we have talked enough without the undemocratic approach of all-women shortlists. about this, leads to better decisions. That is at the heart The problem that we are trying to address is not just of the matter. to do with Parliament, however, because there is a The right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell problem with women’s representation not just at and Peckham (Ms Harman) told me that when she was Westminster but, as we have discussed in previous debates, first elected child care was not regarded as a political in public companies, at the top in boardrooms and in issue and Parliament never debated it. She and my right different elements of life. I picked up a copy of The hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Dame Guardian recently, and it stated that Joan Ruddock) were among those who made sure that “78% of the UK’s newspaper articles are written by men, 72% of the issue was normalised in politics. Question Time contributors are men, and 84% of reporters and Shortly after I was elected in 1997, I telephoned the guests on Radio 4’s Today show are men.” Clerk of the Select Committee on Defence to research Women and ladies, we need to do something about that. how much of a difference women had made in politics. In its 17-year life, that Committee had never had a Margot James: I wonder whether my hon. Friend woman member. There were two women members after noticed on the “Andrew Marr Show” at the end of last the 1997 election. The Clerk said, “Fiona, of course year its review of 2011. It was a wonderful canter there is a difference. We always used to talk just about through all the year’s political highlights, and approximately weapons and ammunition, and now we talk about the 20 politicians featured—but not one woman. families of the soldiers.” We know now how critical the family members of those who are fighting in battles Amber Rudd: I am so grateful to my hon. Friend for overseas are to their success. Having different voices in improving on my case. Parliament changes the terms of the debate. In the 1997 Parliament, which recorded the biggest My point is not to hide from the important problem difference in the number of women, we saw our effect in that we have to address in Parliament, but to say that it the Budgets. In the Budgets of ’97, ’98 and ’99, the is a wider problem that the Government as a whole need amount of money in women’s purses increased by £5.30 a to address in order to ensure that we get all women to week, compared with an increase of £2.30 in men’s the top of the ladder, and to demonstrate to young wallets. Having more women does not automatically women that they, too, can achieve and get to the top. As bring that result. We can see, depressingly, that the cost we have heard, it makes good business sense, and in of recent Budgets and the last comprehensive spending public life it is absolutely essential, because if we want review to women has been £8.80 a week, compared with to be truly democratic we have to reflect the diversity of a cost of £4.20 for men. the whole country. It is more important in Parliament than anywhere else. This issue is not just about representation but about power. Women can have power, but we need to ensure It is an incredible privilege to be a Member, but we that we have it. One thing that I admired the Prime have a responsibility to ensure that Parliament as a Minister for saying in opposition was that he aimed for whole reflects the diversity of the country. We should 30% of his Cabinet to be women. There is not enough not, however, have a system of mandatory quotas beyond progress on that aim. In Parliament, one has much each individual party deciding to make its own case for more power when one is a Minister. I am shocked that them, because each party must have its own approach. 11 out of 24 Departments have no women Ministers. I To me, and to my colleagues in the Conservative urge the Minister for Equalities, who will respond to the party, all-women shortlists are a form of surrender, debate, to take action on that. Many of the women because what do we admit if we introduce them? We Ministers are in the other place. There is a shortage of admit that somewhere the problem is so ingrained that women’s voices in Departments, and not just in the little we have to impose a shortlist. It is far better to ask, Departments. In the Ministry of Justice, the Department 421 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 422

[Fiona Mactaggart] out gay Member, although I think there were quite a number of Members of that persuasion before that who of Energy and Climate Change, the Ministry of Defence chose not to say so, especially on the Conservative and the Foreign Office there are no women Ministers. I Benches. It is significant that for the first time the urge the women on the Government Benches to do majority of LGBT Members are on the Conservative whatever they can to change that. If they do not, we will Benches, which represents an enormous transformation carry on having stupid decisions. for our party. It would not have happened even relatively This debate has been partly about the problem of recently. women-only shortlists. I do not regard them as a problem. There is still sometimes a stigma, however, and some The only person who has ever called me a quota woman negative campaigning still goes on. Although all parties is the woman who stood for the party that held the seat are signed up publicly and at leadership level, at constituency before I took it. Nobody has called me that since. level there can sometimes be discrimination in subtle or Women shortlists are a tactic, but that does not mean unsubtle ways. I personally had no problems at all in my that people who have got here in that way are diminished. campaign in Milton Keynes. My opponents did not There are other tactics that can work, but I do not share make any reference at all to my sexuality, and we had a the optimism of the women on the Government Benches completely fair and open contest. However, I know that about the progress that their parties have made. in other constituencies where there were openly gay The hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) has candidates, some fairly nasty comments were made. something to be proud of in the representation of Other candidates would proclaim their family credentials, ethnic minorities on the Conservative Benches, which or there would be mentions on commuter trains that a has changed enormously. I respect the Conservative particular candidate happened to be gay. Little things party for that change. It did not happen through quotas like that still represent a barrier, and we all have a job to or anything like that, but through a psychological change do to ensure that such prejudice is stamped out. in the Conservative party, which I genuinely welcome. I agree with much that has been said in the debate I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford about how we can widen the diversity of this place so and Eccles (Hazel Blears) for her work on the internship that it is representative of the nation as a whole. One of programme. We need to consider the fact that, as The the most powerful things that we can be is role models. Daily Telegraph put it, the main qualifications of people That applies to people who are of a visible minority and in this House are having gone to public school, having those who represent diverse backgrounds, be they gone to Oxbridge and having been in a profession. Two professionals, carers or people from modest council of the three apply to me, although the representation of house backgrounds. People who might be inspired to go my profession, school teaching, has reduced. We need into politics need to be able to see that there are people more progress on getting more people from manual like them in Parliament. That is one of the most powerful occupations into the House. ways of getting more people involved in politics. In that regard, I would say that Conservative Members We should not underestimate the role of individual tend to disrespect not only women-only shortlists but Members in being ambassadors in our constituencies the trade union movement. The working-class members and encouraging people to engage in politics and come of the House have overwhelmingly been able to come forward as candidates. I do a lot of work going around here because of the work of the trade unions, and we schools, both primary and secondary, to make pupils need to respect the ability of the movement to bring aware of politics and Parliament. Sometimes that can people into politics. It will be one of the ways in which lead to some awkward questions in primary schools—I we can get change in the future. went to one school and the first question I was asked was, “Why are you here?”The supplementary was whether 4.45 pm I had met Doctor Who. We have to be prepared for such eventualities. Engaging with schools, being visible as an Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I am very MP and talking about the role of Parliament are incredibly glad to have an opportunity to participate in the debate, important. I also organise a schools parliamentary debating and I add my congratulations to the hon. Member for competition each year and bring the finalists here to Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) on helping to give them experience of Parliament. secure it. I support the motion, although I must express slight disappointment that it omits to mention one fact With my colleagues in the constituency, I have set up that we should celebrate, in which I declare an interest—that a community engagement group to make myself accessible in this Parliament we have a record number of Members to the different minority ethnic and religious groups, so who are openly gay or lesbian. that they feel that I have direct contact with them. Through that, they can be inspired to come forward as Dame Anne Begg: The remit that was given to the council or parliamentary candidates. There is a lot that Speaker’s Conference did not specifically include that individual MPs can do. matter—it included “other connected purposes”, but interest in the issue was implied in everything that we Jo Swinson: I am listening to my hon. Friend with did. great interest. He is absolutely right that MPs have a role and responsibility to encourage others to get involved Iain Stewart: I am very grateful to the hon. Lady, and in politics. Does he agree that asking a women whether I acknowledge that she mentioned the matter in her she wants to be a parliamentary candidate is perhaps speech. the sole occasion when if a woman says no, it does not Relatively recently, declaring one’s homosexuality was always mean no? Sometimes people need quite a bit of completely taboo. It is only just over 25 years since the nudging and encouragement before they feel they have now Lord Smith publicly declared himself as the first the confidence to stand for election to this place. 423 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 424

Iain Stewart: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. such agreement and such good-humoured and good- Another way we can do that is by bringing young tempered debate. It is very encouraging to see that, people into our offices, whether that be for a short because we want to make progress. period of work experience or for a longer period as I was thinking about why it is important for Parliament interns, to give them an insight into what we do. to look like the communities we represent, which is something we have been talking about for what seems Hazel Blears: The hon. Gentleman mentions like decades. It is important in terms of fairness and parliamentary internships. Does he recognise that it is justice, but, more and more, it is about good governance, often difficult for people from working class backgrounds competence and making the right decisions for the who do not have money or financial backing, or people future of this country. I have always believed, including who do not have parents who live in London, to be in every job I held before I came to Parliament, that if interns in Parliament? Would he support a campaign to we get a good range of people with different life experiences ensure that there is sufficient financial support so that around the table, we often make the right decisions. we can redress that balance? If we think about some of the decisions we make in Iain Stewart: I agree with that—and it leads me very relation to politics, education, social services, transport, neatly to my next point, which is on support for people jobs and the economy, it is clear that nothing can be who want to stand for Parliament. more important to the lives of individuals, communities I was very lucky. I was a candidate for three general and families than political decisions. That is why I feel elections before I got in—[Interruption.] I got here in passionately about the fact that this House is not the end. I was lucky as I did not have a family to representative. It will take us a long time—decades, we support, and I had a relatively well paid job and an have heard—to get where we want to be in terms of enlightened employer who was willing to give me the equality between men and women. time to do all the work a parliamentary candidate must We should talk about these issues, and the report do. Many people who would come forward as parliamentary provides an excellent anchor which will enable us to do candidates are inhibited because they do not have the the monitoring and the evaluation and really to push financial wherewithal or the time because of their this agenda. However, we can talk all we like—what we employment. That is an important aspect. need is practical action to make sure that we make I am running out of time, but let me highlight one progress on this agenda, and that is what I want to talk thing that we should do and two that we should not. about. Parties should use professional head-hunters more to It is important that we recognise how far we have to encourage people who might not otherwise think of a go. Research at the last election showed that 10% of the parliamentary career. I used to be a head-hunter, but no 2010 intake of MPs came from just 13 schools, while longer, so I do not have to declare an interest. Part of 33% of all MPs were privately educated, compared to my role was to find people for commercial companies just 7% of the total population. All three party leaders and the charity and public sectors to make boards more were educated at Oxford or Cambridge, which is no diverse, so that they reflected society as a whole. That fault of theirs. The Government contain a preponderance should be extended to the political arena. of people from a very similar background. I am not Let me quickly put on record a couple of things that I criticising the Government, because the same applies to do not think would be helpful. Although I accept that it all political parties, and we have seen that trend increase should be for each political party to decide, I do not in recent years. That is one reason why people outside agree with quotas. I would hate to be here because I was think Parliament is not full of people like them or a elected from an LGBT-only shortlist. I would find that place where they can go and make their contribution. incredibly patronising. I got here on my own merits, Another trend is making politics even more exclusive. because I competed with anyone else who wanted to go During the past 20 years, one route to becoming an MP for the seat. has become increasingly common. People come to work In my last few seconds, I should sound a discordant for a Member of Parliament in Westminster and perhaps note on reforming the hours of the House to make them go on to become a special adviser, before being selected more family friendly. Such reform is a red herring. If we for a safe seat in pretty short order. Of course, it took want to tackle the hours of the House, we should look some of us 12 years to get to Parliament, which is at the resources we have and the work that Members something I have in common with the hon. Member for have to do, not at chopping and changing the order in Milton Keynes South. After that, people might become which we do that work. Ministers, before ending up in the Cabinet. That means that a very narrow group of people make some of the Several hon. Members rose— most important decisions in this country. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I should Three years ago, when I was in the Cabinet, I made a point out that it is a coincidence that I am in the Chair Hansard Society speech, in which I said I was very for this debate, but I guess it could not be more appropriate. worried about the health of our democracy because of the growing trend I have described. In 1970, 3.4% of MPs said they had a background as a political adviser. 4.54 pm In 2005, the figure had gone up to 12%. In 2010, it was Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): It is a pleasure 24%—a quarter of Members of Parliament, from all to follow the hon. Member for Milton Keynes South political parties, had come through this political route. (Iain Stewart) and to congratulate my hon. Friend the One thing people do is to get internships in Westminster, Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg). I but that is difficult for those who do not live in London have rarely been in the Chamber when there has been or do not have parents to provide financial backing, 425 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 426

[Hazel Blears] hardly enough money to run their offices, but if any small amounts are left over, it is a great idea to use them because many internships are unpaid. Recommendations to enable us to create more placements. 15 and 16 of the Speaker’s Conference report say that We have 10 interns this year. They started in November, there are several problems. Often, internships are not and they are amazing people. They have been through a advertised, and people find out about them by word of rigorous selection process. The Social Mobility Foundation mouth—it is about who you know. If internships are is administering the scheme for us, and I want to place unpaid, that is difficult. It is also difficult for people to on record my thanks to David Johnston, its chief executive, plan things, because internships are sporadic, and it is and, in particular, to Katharine Sanders, who has gone not clear when they will arise. above and beyond the call of duty in organising housing I have therefore spent the past year with the hon. and passes, for example, and giving pastoral support Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson)—she is and genuine personal support to the interns. Neeta my hon. Friend in this context—and the hon. Member Patel, who is working on the House training scheme, is for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) working also doing a marvellous job. All the interns will also get on fundraising so that we can have a paid internship placements within the sponsor companies, which will scheme in Parliament. We have the enthusiastic backing give them commercial and business exposure. The Deputy of Mr Speaker, who has been marvellous. The Speaker’s Prime Minister has also agreed that they can have parliamentary placement scheme has a small seed fund placements in Government Departments, which will of £25,000 from the House of Commons Commission. give them experience of what it is like to see Ministers at We have now raised several hundred thousand pounds work, as well as learning about the work of the House. from organisations such as Morrisons supermarkets. I want to mention a few of the people on the scheme. They might well be watching the debate. Deborah has a Amber Rudd: I am fortunate enough to have one of background in retail—she has worked in Marks & those interns in my office. He is a huge asset to the Spencer—and she has worked in the charity sector. office, so I congratulate the right hon. Lady and the Abdul, another of our interns, was kidnapped at the other hon. Members who have pulled this off, because it age of eight in Liberia and forced to be a child soldier. makes an incredibly important contribution to democracy He has since worked his way through university and in this place. now wants to make politics less brutal than the politics that he has experienced. James was an unemployed Hazel Blears: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that joiner in Glasgow, and he is now working with the comment. I am also grateful to hear of the excellent role Leader of the Opposition, so his life has changed quite model in her office. All the reports I get back are dramatically as well. positive. The scheme will change people’s lives. Some of those As I said, we have had support from Morrisons involved might want to work here full time; others supermarkets, which has been great. We have also might want to stand for office. It is a small scheme, but had support from Clifford Chance lawyers, Prudential, we are hoping to take on more people next year and the AXA, Aviva insurance, Diageo and Sahara Group. We year after. I want to put it to the Minister that, as the are constantly on the lookout for more people who Government have put the scheme into the social mobility would like to support us, so if any hon. Members are strategy, they should have a responsibility to provide at aware of possibilities, it would be helpful to hear about least matching funding for it. The private sector contribution them. We have had help with housing from the Broxbourne should continue—it is a great way of getting industry housing association. It is virtually impossible for people and commerce involved—but the Government need to to come and work here in Parliament if they do not stand up and get behind the scheme. I would very much have housing. We also have a firm of head-hunters, welcome the Minister telling us today that it is their Ellwood and Atfield, helping with CV-building and intention to do so. interview techniques. The interns work with their MPs from Monday to Several hon. Members rose— Thursday, and the House authorities are providing a brilliant training programme for them on Fridays. They Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We are working in education and outreach, and in statistics have exactly half an hour left for Back-Bench contributions, and research. They are learning how the House works, so, in the spirit of this consensual debate, will Members and how we get a Bill through the House, for example. please remain conscious of the time? It is a fantastic, life-changing experience for them. 5.3 pm Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): May I also add my congratulations to the right hon. Lady on working so Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): tenaciously on that important scheme? Would it be It is a pleasure to speak in this important debate, and I possible for MPs to top up the scheme with any left-over pay tribute to the hon. Member for Aberdeen South Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (Dame Anne Begg), and to the Speaker’s Panel as a allowances? I have a bit of money left, but it is not whole, for putting the report together. I also note, as enough to employ a full-time intern. However, I would have others, that we have had a general election since it like to contribute to the pool. Is that a possibility? was published, and that that has given rise to a more diverse Parliament. Hazel Blears: That is an excellent idea. The more I have listened carefully to the concerns about what innovative ideas on this agenda we have, the better. might happen in 2015, but I have to say that I do not Money is tight, and Members of Parliament often have share them. I have tremendous respect for the Labour 427 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 428 party as an institution, but I have never attended a Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): Labour party meeting. I pray to God that I never will! The hon. Gentleman raised an important point about Culturally, Labour has a very different attitude to the the contribution of diverse communities to public life as Conservative party, and I think it is fair to say that what a whole. I was involved in running a cross-government works for Labour would probably not work for us. I diversity programme aimed at increasing the contributions love the Conservative party dearly, but I sometimes from all communities to our public boards. Does he think that, in regard to candidate selection, there is a bit agree, however, that the focus has to stay on increasing of push-me, pull-you involved. The more people try to diversity in Parliament? According to the Inter- tell us what to do, the more we rebel against them. My Parliamentary Union, our Parliament ranks joint 49th hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) in the world when it comes to the number of women in made it clear that there was a sea change on this side of Parliament. Should not all parties try to maintain our the House at the 2010 election, and I do not think that goal of making our Parliament more representative of we will go backwards from that point. We are an Britain as a whole? evolutionary party. Changes occur gradually and then suddenly, whoosh, they start to occur very rapidly. I Paul Maynard: I thank the hon. Lady for that thoughtful therefore have much more confidence than some hon. contribution. It brings me back to what I said earlier—that Members. it is for each party to find its own path towards the greater diversity that we all wish to see. Conservative I am reluctant to serve up cold maiden speeches from Members will have their path; the hon. Lady and her two years ago, so I will not do so, but I made the point party will no doubt have their path—but we all want to that, although I did not want to dwell on my physical get to the same destination. disability, my cerebral palsy or my epilepsy, I was likely to end up as a role model, whether I liked it or not. That My bigger concern is that in 10 years’ time, a Speaker’s has certainly been the case. Panel will be aiming not for a more representative Parliament, but for a Parliament of people who are not Many people come to me saying that they want to get independently wealthy. My big fear is that what is really more involved in public life generally. I think this is a happening in politics at the moment is that people from fundamental issue that has been missed in the debate so ordinary backgrounds, like me, who have struggled to far, as it is not just about getting more diverse Members fund their own campaigns and to make ends meet are of this House. I was at a RADAR—Royal Association going to be excluded. I am not trying to say that I am for Disability Rights—reception at Downing street, and poor by any means, in view of my salary, but I was a I pay tribute to the work it does in this field. It told me candidate who lost his job before the election and was that it wanted more leaders in public life as a whole, not not quite sure what to do. It was a genuine struggle to just in this Chamber. It is vital that more diverse people make ends meet. Thank God I had a credit card! act as counsellors, as these are the people who will be We have a problem. There will increasingly come a acting on selection panels to select our successors and time when unless candidates are of independent means, our candidates. By broadening the political base, we are having made their money before they chose to enter contributing to broadening the membership here. politics, politics will not be a practical option for them—no I echo what the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire matter what their family circumstances, no matter what (Jo Swinson) said about section 141 of the Mental their skills and no matter what minority or political Health Act. People might think that it is a rather party they seek to represent. We will have a much abstruse measure or small print in legislation that needs narrower democracy. That is why I welcome the internship to be tidied up at some point. However, I think it is scheme that the right hon. Member for Salford and fundamental, and the longer I think about it, the more Eccles mentioned. That is why, in Blackpool, I am strongly I become convinced of that viewpoint. trying desperately to explain to people why Parliament is relevant to them. It is also why I want more schools to I am one of two MPs who have announced in the come here. I am delighted that next week the first Chamber that they have epilepsy.This is the first Parliament primary school from my constituency will be coming. It to include MPs who have been open about that. In the has been a battle, but at last the schools are starting to past, for reasons I have never quite understood, people come down to Westminster. Like my hon. Friend the were concerned not to talk about it. Because my hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), I go Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) around schools trying to explain what I do, and I get and I have been able to talk about it, we have seen a more pleasure out of my politics every time someone more rapid change in Government attitudes towards comes up to me and says “I would never dream of epilepsy.When I spoke about my own personal experiences voting for you—I cannot stand your party—but I like in a Westminster Hall debate—not just about my epilepsy, what you are doing as a human being.” but about speech therapy, cerebral palsy and all sorts of I want the general public to see in their MPs people other issues on which my life gives me a unique who they feel are just like them. That, to me, is the most perspective—I was surprised when other Members came crucial thing of all. up to me afterwards to say, “That’s a really useful contribution you made.” It struck me that what I said 5.10 pm was utterly unexceptional and that I was just filling time in the parliamentary schedule, as it were, yet others Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I slightly disagree were saying, “That was fantastic; that was wonderful.” with the last remark made by the hon. Member for It really makes a difference. If more people are able to Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). If we talk about their experiences, it will improve policy. I are honest, we are all a bit weird, are we not? After all, think that echoes a point made by the right hon. Member by definition, we wanted to come here. The hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). for Devizes (Claire Perry) is pointing at me. That is not 429 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 430

[Chris Bryant] Parliament, because two prejudices have been, as it were, tied together to form one. I pay tribute to those very kind. I could point back, because I do not think who have come out. That is difficult however, as not that she is any less weird than I am. every gay person wants to be out, and I do not think There are two fundamental principles. The first is they should have to be. I disagree with what the hon. that we should never judge people according to the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) said colour of their skin, their gender, their sexuality, the about role models. I hope to God nobody will ever school that they went to or the accent with which they think of me as a role model in relation to anything speak. We should only ever judge people according to whatsoever at any time. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman the strength of the convictions that they hold, the says that I should not worry about that, because nobody strength of their personal character, and whether they does. That is very generous of him. I was once described are able to see their convictions through in their lives. in the Daily Mail as an ex-gay vicar; I just want to point Surely the political system should embody that principle. out that I am an ex-vicar, but my gayness is extant. The second principle is that, broadly speaking, Parliament Turning to disabilities, it is important to remember should look like the country that it is meant to represent. that not every disability is visible. There have been There are several reasons for that, some of which have disabled MPs for many centuries, including Philip Snowden, already been given today. First, it makes Parliament Labour Chancellor in 1924, and the first Earl of Salisbury, more effective and efficient, and we end up with better who was profoundly disabled and a Secretary of State. legislation. People can spot some of the holes in an idea The barriers for many people with disabilities are still that is being advanced because they know from their great, however, such as in terms of this building itself own lives whether it works or not, and how it affects and the way in which we do our business—the way we them. The advent of women in Parliament undoubtedly vote and so forth. meant that a whole raft of legislation was improved, As the Member of Parliament for the Rhondda, I because, frankly, men simply did not know what they would also like to point out that the biggest difficulties were talking about. I can see hon. Ladies thinking that of all face working-class people who may want to enter perhaps that happens all the time generally. the House. That is partly because of finances, as standing for Parliament is prohibitively expensive. Ironically, there Secondly, Parliament is more likely to embrace the is now also a problem at the other end of the scale, in people’s priorities. Rather that its being obsessed with a that the pay and conditions in Parliament seem prohibitive few things that might have interested a self-chosen elite, to people in professional jobs who expect to earn £100,000, the views of the whole of society are expressed on its £120,000 or £150,000. Order Paper and on the agenda for political action, and that must surely make it better. This issue is not just about being representative; it is also about representing, and we should do that with Thirdly—this has not been mentioned yet—it is all courage and determination. very well in politics to legislate, to pull a lever, but if the legislation has no effect out in the country because it Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Five Members has no public support, it will have no real chance of still wish to speak, and we have just over 15 minutes left, effecting change. A Parliament that looks more like the so according to the maths if each of them speaks for society that it is meant to represent is able to carry that about three minutes everybody will get in—a bit of society with it more effectively, and that means that can moral blackmail there. effect change more convincingly. We are, I think, nowhere near being able to meet either of those two principles. A number of Members 5.16 pm have reminded us today that for many centuries no Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): First, I warmly women were allowed to vote or to sit in here. Of the first congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen South two women who were allowed to sit in here, one was a (Dame Anne Begg) on securing the debate, and on the countess and the other was a Lady—not that I have important contribution that she makes to this whole anything against Ladies, or against Dames, who seem to subject area. be multiplying on the Opposition Benches, or even The main parties have each in their own way done a against pantomime dames. Similarly, I believe that two great deal to reduce discrimination in the candidate of the first women to arrive in the House of Lords were selection process. The difference that the Labour party the daughters of viceroys, and that one was married to a made in 1997 was phenomenal. Although I do not agree viceroy. The change needs to be far more substantial. with all-women shortlists, I certainly do not have a I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Milton Keynes closed mind on the subject when I see what they have South (Iain Stewart) for what he said about lesbian, gay, achieved for the party. The difference for Conservative bisexual and transgender Members. It is significant that women just between 2005 and 2010 has also been amazing. we now have more out gay Members of Parliament In 2004, when I was applying for a seat in Berkshire, I than ever before. Indeed, sometimes when you go into was given an interview and told in a letter that were I to the Strangers Bar you feel as though you are in Rupert make the final round, I would be welcome to bring my street. It is virtually a gay bar now, and my husband wife to drinks beforehand—and I do not think that its sometimes worries about whether I should be allowed authors were so forward-looking that they were taking in there any more. into account future gay marriage legislation. Even the numbers that we have, however, do not One of the main reasons why still not enough MPs come near matching the numbers in the country in are women or from minority groups is that they do not terms of the percentage of the population. It is a great come forward for selection in adequate numbers. There sadness to me that there are still only two out lesbians in are many reasons for that, several of which have already 431 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 432 been mentioned. I would add that the personal, and It is entirely wrong that those who seek to remedy sometimes sexist, coverage of women MPs in the media what they perceive as discrimination against women is also a factor, as is the general level of aggression in should adopt as their solution the practice of all-women some aspects of political debate. Moreover, the opprobrium shortlists, which discriminate against men. We should that is heaped on MPs who make a misjudgement or get oppose all forms of discrimination and not seek to something wrong is often out of all proportion to the legitimise it, as happened with the passing of the Sex seriousness of the supposed offence. We have already Discrimination (Election Candidates) Act 2002. seen that this year in respect of one hon. Member. The Good candidates will always rise to the top. As has Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is another been mentioned, Margaret Thatcher became leader of factor, but I will not dwell on that. our party, and Prime Minister, without the need for any Those factors put many people off entering public special help. As she said in her book “Statecraft”, life, but they put off a higher proportion of women and “the use of quotas applying to the appointment or promotion of people from minority groups. There are certain things individuals because of their collective identity or background is we can do, and some of them are in the gift of the Prime an unacceptable incursion on freedom, however well-intentioned Minister. I was delighted to hear that he is intent on the motives. Nor does it help those who are its intended beneficiaries. having one third of his Government made up of women Individuals from these groups may well feel patronised; their by the end of this Parliament. The hon. Member for professional reputations in posts which they would anyway have attained on merit are diminished, because they are thought to Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) has drawn attention to occupy them by special privilege; and they are likely to become some of the many Departments that have no woman the targets of resentment and possibly even ill-treatment.” Minister. It is breathtaking that not one of the 15 Ministers The report of the Speaker’s Conference stated: in the Departments of State that face the outside world—the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence and the Department “at present few people think that members of Parliament understand, or share the life experience of the people they represent (their for International Development—is female. What message constituents). Building and restoring public faith in Parliament is does that give to women who are struggling for the most of crucial importance to the future of our democracy.” basic human rights in the developing world? One certain way to alienate voters up and down the Returning to the broader issue of diversity, I want to country is to put forward as candidates to be their place on the record my gratitude to the Prime Minister potential representatives people chosen on the basis not and the previous but one Prime Minister for the amazing of merit but of their gender. progress made since the turn of the century in the area of gay equality. The number of openly gay MPs in my party increased sixfold or sevenfold, as we have heard, 5.24 pm at the last election. That is testimony to the legislative Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I changes introduced by the Labour Government under thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Tony Blair, and to the cultural change in the Conservative Anne Begg) and the Speaker’s Conference for reminding party brought about by the present Prime Minister. I us of the importance of this issue by holding this would not be standing here today without them, and I debate. The comments made by hon. Members from am deeply grateful to both of them, and to others such across the Chamber have shown that this is about as the chairman of the Stourbridge Conservative association improving our democracy and recognising the contribution when I was selected, Councillor Liz Walker. These that a more diverse group of Members can make to this people have made possible a journey that I embarked Chamber. on at the age of 16, and I am deeply grateful. I want the focus of my few remarks to be the issue of Several hon. Members rose— women. The issue of female representation arises not only in Parliament, but in the boardroom, where the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am level of representation is just 15%. In addition, the level introducing a three-minute limit, just to focus people’s of female entrepreneurship is less than half of that for attention. men, so there is still a lot of work to be done. However, like my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), I watched the scenes from “The Iron 5.21 pm Lady” this week and I can tell the House that, as my Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): I believe that hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain when political parties are selecting candidates, what Stewart) said, role models are important. The first most people want to see is that they are selected purely female British Prime Minister inspired me and many on merit and not according to a given particular others to get into Parliament, as she showed that women characteristic, be it gender, faith, disability or what sort can believe in themselves and achieve the highest office. of relationship they may be involved in. Everyone should We have made a difference, because whereas female have an equal opportunity to apply to become a candidate, MPs made up 3% of this House when Margaret Thatcher and by all means, we should be encouraging as many came to power, the level is now 22%. So some progress people as possible to come forward for selection. However, has been made and, although there is room for personally, I do not want to see the imposition of improvement, a third of coalition female MPs have a quotas, which in reality mean fixing the result of the Government role, including Parliamentary Private selection process before it has even begun. By their very Secretaries. Defence has been mentioned, and we certainly nature, the use of all-women shortlists, for example, have a great PPS in defence with my hon. Friend the discriminates not just against men as a whole, but, by Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). extension, against men belonging to a group under- In the world rankings in this area, the UK comes represented in the House, such as those from a working-class 49th in the national Parliaments list, below Cuba, Uganda, background. Afghanistan and Iraq. That puts things in perspective 433 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 434

[Mary Macleod] As we have heard, the three things that principally stand in the way of the talented minority candidate are and it is why I set up the all-party group on women in money, prejudice and process. For example, a friend of Parliament. It is important that this House reflects the mine who was a would-be candidate was lucky enough vitality and modernity of our democratic processes. to get through to the latter rounds of several constituency selection panels, but unfortunately for her they were all Margot James: On the international point that my on the same weekend. She had to spend in excess of hon. Friend makes, does she accept that in some of £700 to transport herself and her husband around those those countries a lot of the women who fill those quota meetings and on child care, so Members can imagine places are, sadly, place women and often they are not her despair when she received the ironic feedback that there on any particular merit other than their connections she had not been selected and that the only blemish on to—mostly male—members of the establishment in her impeccable score sheet was that her husband had those countries? not bought a raffle ticket. Even worse than such petty reasoning is open prejudice. The way to tackle any Mary Macleod: I agree with my hon. Friend. There is instinctive opposition to female, BME or other candidates certainly more work to be done in communicating with is not to deny local associations their liberty to chose or Governments elsewhere about what else they can do to to constrain them to pass over a generation of talented increase female representation in their Parliaments, and men in the name of all-women shortlists, but to bring not necessarily by using things such as women-only the process out from the dusty backrooms and into the shortlists, with which I do not agree. light of day. There should be much more training, I wish to make a point about the importance of advice and education for selection panels on how to media coverage in politics, a subject that has been score candidates against one another properly. mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Hastings Parties must also recognise that candidates cannot and Rye and for Stourbridge (Margot James), as it does fund themselves to the nth degree. Travel and other play a part in the perception of women. How can we reasonable costs incurred by candidates seeking a seat increase the number of women in Parliament? We have should be paid from central party coffers. That would to start with people who are at a very young age; it is not only encourage the less well-off to come forward about teaching politics in school, and engaging these but focus the minds of those who decide who makes it young people in community projects and on local issues. on to the approved lists. In tackling that financial We need to show them that they can make a difference, burden, the central parties should also assume responsibility even as a young person, to their local communities. The for co-ordinating selection meetings. Local associations hon. Member for Aberdeen South talked about the should be able to choose their agendas, but they should importance of making a continuous rather than a one-off have to fit in with a national grid on which all associations effort. The Conservative party is maintaining that approach should block their selection meetings. For example, a by continuing the encouragement and support of female prospective candidate with a caring responsibility who candidates, stretching out and finding new and great was therefore tied to a particular geographical location people who can represent our country in the future. might be unable to take up the handful of opportunities In conclusion, we might in future need to examine the to be selected for such a seat because all the selection challenge of the “gang”, hostile culture in the Chamber. meetings had been scheduled on the same morning. A I sometimes think that it would not be accepted in the bit of basic organisation would substantially increase classroom or the boardroom, so why is it accepted in that person’s opportunities. the Chamber? Women are a growing force in employment and in public life, and it is incumbent on each of us to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I call Simon encourage and inspire the next generation of people in Hughes, who has until 5.33 pm. this country, from all backgrounds, to shape the future of our country. 5.31 pm 5.28 pm Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I recognise the opportunity to make what might be my shortest the merits of a diverse Parliament, both in the quality speech for a long time, which might be a consolation to of what we do and in the perceived and actual relevance many people. to the country of our work. However, I do not think that being middle aged, middle class, white or male are A friend of mine called David Buxton, who stood to disqualifications for this job, any more than they are be a councillor, was the most profoundly deaf person recommendations. I am not in favour of all-women ever to become a councillor in England. He taught me a shortlists or quotas. If I were, perhaps I would be long time ago how difficult it is for someone who comes asking today why we should just stop at measures from a disadvantaged position to be treated equally and focused on would-be candidates and why we should not given equal opportunities. The debate has shown just ask half the white male MPs to vacate their seats at phenomenal consensus in Parliament and between the the next election. I think that would strike most people political parties about where we go next. The messages as unfair, but it is no less unfair than a measure that are clear: a more diverse Parliament gives us better seeks to remove prejudice on the basis of skin colour or decisions, better debates, better information, better gender by denying a generation of candidates their credibility and more interest in Parliament. I pay tribute chance because of the particular colour of their skin or to the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys their particular gender. The only sort of under- (Paul Maynard), who made that point so effectively. representation about which we should be concerned is We need to send out an appeal: in this House we need the under-representation of talent. more young people, more old people, more women, 435 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 436 more people from the black and minority ethnic some way less capable of doing the job than any other communities, more people with disabilities, more people parliamentary colleague. Indeed, I strongly suspect that, who are lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender and more as my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona people from the faith minority communities. We also Mactaggart) said, few Members would be able to identify need more people from working class backgrounds, which women had been selected through an all-women council house backgrounds and lower income groups. shortlist once they were in this place. We need to go on with that agenda until half the House There has been progress in other areas, as well as on is made up of women and until we reflect fully the improving the diversity of the membership of this House, ethnic minorities of our country. and I pay tribute to the House administration for the I promised that I would sit down at 5.33 pm, so let me improvement we have seen there. I particularly welcome end with the following point. Above all, we must ensure the establishment of the workplace equality networks, that every one of our political parties has a membership which are proving effective and successful for parliamentary base in its constituencies that reflects the constituency staff and visitors to Parliament. Other hon. Members and a councillor base that reflects the constituency, too. have commented on the work of the Select Committee If we have a proper base, we can have a Parliament, on Procedure in consulting on parliamentary hours and chosen from the people, of whom we can be proud in the parliamentary calendar, and I was very pleased that the years to come. my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) pointed out that even the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority 5.33 pm has done its best to be more supportive. I pay tribute to Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): It is a a number of hon. Members in that regard, including the pleasure to respond to a debate in which, as my right hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), who has hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel done a great deal to encourage IPSA to take a wide-ranging Blears) said, has been characterised by so much harmony. and imaginative view of the family responsibilities that Across the board, beginning with the welcome opening hon. Members face. speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen There has been progress, but there is much that we South (Dame Anne Begg), we have seen a recognition need to do to offer to MPs and their staff a working that a Parliament that is unrepresentative of the make-up environment that bears greater resemblance to the normal of the country is, by definition, a failure of democracy. working world outside Parliament. I am often told, and Although we can all be proud of the progress that has by no means just by those who have spent many years in been made, no one can doubt that we still have a great the House, that that is not an apt comparison, but I deal to do. strongly beg to differ. An unhealthy, dysfunctional and Important points have been raised by hon. Members non-family-friendly working environment is not good across the House about party processes and procedures for hon. Members or for our effectiveness and it is for encouraging, preparing and selecting parliamentary simply off-putting to many people outside Parliament candidates. Important points have also been made about who might otherwise aspire to join us. It provides a the experiences of Members and their staff in carrying poor exemplar of good, modern behaviours and practices out their parliamentary duties and about the barriers in employment more generally and I am very pleased that might need to be dismantled. I hope to touch on a that the Speaker’s Conference took notice of that specific number of the comments on those areas, which were issue. addressed in the recommendations of the Speaker’s I want to spend a couple of minutes discussing the Conference. The recommendations covered party practices recommendations of the Speaker’s Conference that deal and processes to promote diversity among candidates, with stimulating and supporting individuals from a issues to do with meeting the costs of candidacy, on diversity of backgrounds to come forward and be successful which a number of hon. Members have rightly commented, in seeking selection—a subject that a number of hon. and ways of working in Parliament. Members have touched on this afternoon. The motion Let me start by picking up on comments about the is right to highlight concerns about the impact of the processes to encourage more women to apply to become Government’s planned changes to parliamentary parliamentary candidates on the all-women shortlists. I constituency boundaries. I hope that all political parties am proud that Labour introduced all-women shortlists and Parliament itself will take the opportunity to conduct and I am proud of the significant improvement in an audit of the impact of that change so that we can be female representation that we achieved as a result. I am informed collectively about the steps that might need to also pleased that we took the opportunity in the Equality be taken in light of those changes to secure and promote Act 2010, at the end of the previous Labour Government, the greater diversity that might be at risk as a result. to extend to 2030 the possibility of parties’ using all-women Even if that is not a worry, the continuing under- shortlists. However, I remind hon. Members that that is representation in Parliament of minority and protected a choice for political parties and there is no sense of groups must concern us. As many parliamentary colleagues imposing on any party the use of all-women shortlists have said this afternoon, the legitimacy and effectiveness within the political process. None the less, it is undoubtedly of Parliament depend on its diversity and representativeness. a tactic that has produced a significantly improved Political parties, parliamentarians and Parliament itself outcome not just for my party but in setting the tone must therefore pay attention to how we attract future that other parties have been able to pick up and follow parliamentary candidates. As others have said, for many in seeking to meet the success we have had. people in our country, the idea that they could ever I am proud to have been selected on an all-women enter Parliament is simply unimaginable. The consequence shortlist for my constituency. I have never felt that I is that we have a Parliament that still looks too much needed to apologise for that or that it suggests I am in like a place for a narrowly drawn and privileged elite. 437 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 438

[Kate Green] This has been an important debate. We all bear responsibility for making progress on the issue. Others That is the case for all political parties. It is not to say have commented on the old saying that what gets that we lack empathy or that we are not doing a good measured gets done, which is why the publication of job, but as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen diversity data, as highlighted in the motion, is important. South said in her opening remarks, we all bring our life Perhaps we could add that what gets debated gets done, experiences to Parliament. Perhaps the most eloquent so I am very pleased that we have been able to hold this contribution we heard this afternoon, which highlighted debate and I pay tribute to every hon. Member who has why that is important in the way we act as legislators, taken part. was the speech of the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). He showed us powerfully how important it is that a diverse range of 5.44 pm life experiences is reflected in the House. If those life The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): We experiences are not adequately reflected, if they are too have had a fulfilling debate. It makes one proud of the limited, we shall inevitably have less insight. We risk House when all the contributions—every one, across making poor and poorly informed decisions, and we the Floor—work in the same direction. We might work shall lack credibility as legislators. I hope that careful in different ways, but there is not a single person who note will be taken of the recommendations of the does not believe that we would be much better off if we Speaker’s Conference which will help to make entry to were more reflective of society and the people we represent. Parliament a real option for people from a much greater I assure the House that equality is at the heart of the diversity of background. Government’s agenda, and it is central to building a In that context, I endorse the comments of my right strong economy and a fair society. If we are to achieve hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and that, as so many have said, it is vital that our democracy Hillsborough about education and citizenship. There is is representative of the people we serve. an opportunity to do more in schools and, as the Although this might be the most diverse Parliament Speaker’s Conference recognised, with social and ever, it is clear that there is some way to go. That is why community groups. Like others, I suggest that it is the Government welcome the report of the Speaker’s important that we get in early and work more proactively Conference and support the broad thrust of its with young people. In that regard, I am pleased that we recommendations. We have, to date, implemented the continue to welcome the Youth Parliament to the provisions in the Equality Act 2010, which enabled Chamber—I do not think that has been mentioned this political parties to use positive action, should they wish. afternoon. It is a great opportunity to open up to more As was pointed out, it is not mandatory but optional, young people the concept of representative democracy because clearly there are different views in different and the possibility of being part of this Parliament. I parts of the House. The measure is there to be used by hope we continue to do that in the years to come. those who want to make a difference in that way, to I endorse the points alluded to by both the hon. encourage participation in politics among under-represented Members for Blackpool North and Cleveleys and for groups. Obviously, within that, all prospective candidates East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) about what is going should be considered on their individual merits. I add on in other legislatures and Chambers. What we do in that because, whatever the selection, it is quite obvious Westminster should serve as a model for local government, that one should select the person with the most talent, the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament, for but if the group of people in question is not diverse, by the election of police and crime commissioners, for our definition it is not the best group to choose from. MEPs and, for that matter, for the Youth Parliament. We have extended to 2030 the ability to use women-only Indeed, as the hon. Lady pointed out, in some cases shortlists, a point made by the hon. Member for Stretford they are already outstripping us, which is not something and Urmston (Kate Green). I sat here this afternoon we should be proud of. and listened to points being batted to and fro. Members I want finally to say a couple of things about money. on opposite sides of the Chamber say, “We are fantastic, Hon. and right hon. Members are right to refer to the but they are dreadful.” That is the whole point. Political substantial barrier it presents to people coming into this parties can choose to become more representative in place from not just low but typical incomes. Like other their own way. I congratulate Labour on its all-women Members, I very much welcome the efforts of my right shortlists. That caused a step-change that was admirable. hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles in I congratulate the Conservative party on its methodology, establishing the parliamentary placements initiative; it which has certainly delivered results. Had we won what is a great opportunity for us to bring more people from we thought were the winnable seats in which we had low-income backgrounds into Parliament at an early age. women candidates, I would be able to congratulate the Liberal Democrats, but we did not win them. There are many other financial obstacles to be faced by those seeking selection, so I hope that in her response Following last year’s consultation, we have announced the Minister may be able to update us on the Government’s our plans to support disabled people in accessing elected intentions in relation to the recommendation that a office, and I hope shortly to announce a detailed plan of consultation should take place during this Parliament action, including new funding. I shall go into that in a on the proposal for the introduction of a scheme enabling moment. We have made a start, but there is much more local parties to apply for funding linked to their receipts to do. from membership subscriptions. As others have said, I Three areas are crucial to achieving equality: young also hope she will tell us what progress is being made on people, political parties and the public sector. Hon. looking at the possibility of a public fund to support Members mentioned young people, and those in all disabled Members. parts of the House are doing a good job, going into 439 Parliamentary Representation12 JANUARY 2012 Parliamentary Representation 440 schools to spread the message that politics is life and require them, through the public sector equality duty, that we are human beings, which is a good start. to publish equality data every year and set equality [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris objectives. Bryant) is not sure about that. He says that we are There have been many thoughtful contributions, not weird. I think that we are all human, and it would be a all of which I will be able to respond to, but first and good thing for the House if we showed a bit more of foremost I want to pay tribute to the hon. Member for our human side and a bit less of our automated side. I Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who gave a tour shall now go into automated-speak. de force on this agenda. I am pleased to be able to pay Engaging young people is central to increasing diversity tribute to the work she has done for the Speaker’s in Westminster. Without that, we miss a vital opportunity Conference and in her own way, fighting for things and to change the political landscape. We have to look to the being seen in a wheelchair in Parliament. Although future and inspire the younger generation. We hear Members have said that they do not want to represent people complaining that young people are not engaged, what they are or are seen to be physically, those role but I do not think that is true. The hon. Member for models are nevertheless vital. When a person sees that Bolton West (Julie Hilling) was present the evening I someone who looks like them can do it, that changes spoke to the girl guides. The 2011 results of Girlguiding the world. UK’s annual survey of girls’ attitudes showed that they The hon. Lady asked about diversity data. The are perfectly aware of global events. They care about Government support the principle that parties should them hugely; they are passionate about them. However, publish diversity data but believe that in the first instance the survey highlighted that they often feel powerless to we should pursue a voluntary approach. As I have said, be part of world events. Representation here is part of we are holding a round-table meeting on that. empowering those girls to feel that they have a voice The recommendations of the access to elected office and a place. As I said to them that night, “Be a person. for disabled people strategy—a number of Members Speak up for yourself, in politics or out of politics. That referred to access to public office—are being taken is what counts.” We must encourage today’s young forward. The public consultation ran from February to people, girls and boys, to have aspirations and confidence May 2011 and sought views on a range of policy in themselves. proposals. The Government published their response on 13 September, setting out our intention to take There must be leadership by political parties. More forward five of the six proposals. We are currently than ever, political parties need to reach out to young working with political, disability and other stakeholders people, engaging their interest and encouraging them. to take forward the proposals, which include: the There are simple things that we can do to achieve that. I establishment of a dedicated fund to help individual note what has been said about internships, which are candidates with disability-related costs; new training fantastic. I shall go on to praise the right hon. Member and development opportunities; proposals to raise for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). A recent report awareness; and work with political parties to share by the Institute for Government found that one of the good practice on disability and explain legal obligations. factors that helped to encourage women and other We will make a further announcement relatively soon under-represented groups to stand for election was simply on how the funding is to be distributed. being asked to stand. A number of Members referred to the boundary That was my own experience. I wandered late into review and the impact it will have. The motivation politics. I am a sort of accidental politician. Somebody behind the boundary changes was to create fairness in said to me, “You should think about standing for numbers, because there is a huge differential between Parliament.” I said, “Who, me?” That sparked a thought some constituencies. For example, Arfon in north Wales and, gradually, a belief that perhaps I could do that, has around 40,000 voters, but East Ham has more than although I did not go to university, do not have a degree 90,000. It would be a terrible irony if, in our efforts to and do not have “the right background”. Somebody introduce fairness in what our votes are worth, we had a belief in me; they saw something and said, “You suddenly found that we were being unfair in other can do this”. respects and that our diversity representation was getting worse as a result. I simply say for the record that I The report also pointed to the need to make the would expect all political parties to look at this most selection process more transparent and make it easier carefully when the dust settles on exactly where the for people to understand how to become an MP. My boundaries will be, look at the impact in their own officials will hold a round-table meeting with representatives parties, take note and, more importantly, take action to of the political parties later this month to see how best ensure that we do not, ironically, increase unfairness in to do this, and that will include a voluntary approach that area. whereby the parties would publish data on the diversity of their candidate selection. I know that the Liberal My hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire Democrats do that, but I think that the parties need (Jo Swinson), who also gave a tour de force on this to work together on this. Someone called for central agenda, referred to section 141 of the Mental Health control and command, but I am not sure that we need Act 1983. The Government support the proposal in that and think that ultimately the parties must move principle and on 3 February 2010 announced our intention forward first. to repeal that section, which sets out the process by which an MP’s seat is vacated if they have a mental Lastly—I want to get on to responding to Members—the health condition and are authorised to be detained Speaker’s Conference rightly pointed to the importance under mental health legislation for six months or of leadership by public sector organisations. Public more. The Government supported Lord Stevenson of bodies must lead by example, which is why we now Coddenham’s private Member’s Bill, the Mental Health 441 Parliamentary Representation 12 JANUARY 2012 442

[Lynne Featherstone] Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) asked how well we are doing with our equality agenda (Discrimination) Bill, at its Second Reading on in Departments, and that is a very important aspect. 25 November, but we wish to retain the option to Last night I was at the Stonewall employer of the year introduce a Government amendment at a later stage. ceremony, and—[Interruption]—I cannot talk any more, Given the timing of the Bill’s Second Reading, it will be but—the Home Office came second, and was first last year. extremely difficult for the measure to gain Royal Assent in this Session, so if necessary Lord Stevenson intends 5.58 pm to reintroduce his Bill in the next Session, in which case Dame Anne Begg: The hon. Member for Portsmouth the Government will be pleased to support it. North (Penny Mordaunt) summed the issue up extremely The hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) is well when she said that what we in this House should be no longer in her place, but she raised some really concerned about is the under-representation of talent. important points, with which I agree wholeheartedly. For decades, talented individuals who would have made She said that women—my attention is on women at this excellent MPs have not made it into the House, either point—need to get their hands on levers, on budgets because it was never suggested that they would be very and on power in order to deliver real change, and she good at it, or because the barriers were too high for highlighted the lack of women Ministers in the Government them to overcome. We do not get the best person for the ranks. I can say without declaring an interest, as I am job if the best person does not even apply for it. already in the Government, that such change would It has therefore been important today to reflect on only be of benefit—and is promised by the end of this the fact that political parties have to have a mechanism Parliament. I am sure that the Prime Minister and the to encourage people of talent to come forward and Deputy Prime Minister are listening very carefully and make it into this place. For the Labour party, all-women taking note as I speak. shortlists have certainly worked and created a critical My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes mass; for the Conservatives, it has been their A list, their South (Iain Stewart) referred to the stigma that still support and mentoring and the changing of party exists subliminally in political parties: we say things, but members’ attitudes. But the mechanisms have been put then push comes to shove. In political parties, probably in place. across the board, we will have all encountered the nod, The Speaker’s Conference identified that the case for the nudge, the wink—that sort of thing—and we all widening representation rests on three principles: justice, must work to eliminate it. effectiveness and legitimacy. We have to keep up the I pay tribute to and congratulate the right hon. pressure. Without that pressure, we could start to slip Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) on her backwards. That is why I hope that the House will internship scheme, which is hugely important. Recently, support the motion. the Deputy Prime Minister called for all internships to Question put and agreed to. be advertised to stop the “who you know” culture, Resolved, because some have been about not just access, which is That this House welcomes the fact that there are now more absolutely right, but the idea that if one knows somebody women hon. Members and hon. Members from Black, Asian and one will be given an internship, and it is vital that minority ethnic communities than in any previous Parliament; internships are open to all. notes that the need for greater diversity in the House has been In my constituency office, I have another way. I take accepted by the leadership of the three main political parties at Westminster; is concerned that increased competition for seats at part-time interns, some even for one day a week, so that the 2015 General Election may leave under-represented groups they are able to work the rest of the week and, therefore, more poorly represented among approved candidates, and in the support themselves, because not everyone has parents House thereafter, unless mechanisms are employed to tackle who can help them, and not everyone is from London. continuing inequalities during candidate selection; and calls on the Government and political parties to fulfil commitments made Hazel Blears rose— in response to the Speaker’s Conference (on Parliamentary Representation) in 2010, including the commitment to secure the Lynne Featherstone: I do not know whether the right publication by all parties of diversity data on candidate selections. hon. Lady wants to intervene, but I have only one minute left—unless it is something new. Business without Debate

Hazel Blears: I am not looking for any praise at all BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (16 JANUARY) for the scheme; I am looking for a Government commitment. They praised the scheme in their social Ordered, mobility strategy, so I should like the Minister to say That at the sitting on Monday 16 January paragraph (2) of Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to whether that will result in the Government providing the Motions in the name of Edward Miliband as if the day were some support. an Opposition Day.—(Jeremy Wright.) Lynne Featherstone: I apologise. I forgot about the DRAFT HOUSE OF LORDS REFORM BILL funding, which was the right hon. Lady’s essential point. (JOINT COMMITTEE) I am sure that she is being listened to, and I shall find out whether there is any such intention in the Government. Resolved, I have no inkling at the moment, because it has not been That this House concurs with the Lords Message of 20 December discussed—with me at least. and that, notwithstanding the Resolution of this House of 23 June, it be an instruction to the Joint Committee on the Draft House of We obviously have Government internships, too, with Lords Reform Bill that it should report on the draft Bill by which we are progressing. The right hon. Member for 27 March 2012.—(Jeremy Wright.) 443 12 JANUARY 2012 Academy Status (Haringey) 444

Academy Status (Haringey) I will start by focusing on school standards. The Secretary of State has branded the parents, governors Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House and teachers at these schools as do now adjourn.—(Jeremy Wright.) “ideologues who are happy with failure” and “enemies of promise”. However, not one of us is an 6pm apologist for poor results. That is why Downhills is under a notice to improve, and we support that. It is Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): I am grateful worth looking at the Downhills governing body—the for the chance to debate the decision of Ministers to very people who are supposed to be opposing this force four primary schools in Haringey to become action for ideological reasons. It covers the whole range academies, against the wishes of their governors, parents of the community. It has a solicitor, a former nurse, a and teachers. Those schools are Downhills primary senior civil servant and a hedge fund manager, all school and Coleraine Park primary school in Tottenham, working for free to make the school better. Is that not and Nightingale primary school and Noel Park primary what the big society is all about? Should not those school in Wood Green. I am sad to see the hon. Member people be praised rather than removed? How will getting for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone) rid of all of them and imposing a sponsor make the leaving the Chamber as I begin this speech. school and society better? Although this debate concerns those four schools The governing body and I know that if a pupil leaves primarily, Ministers have suggested that hundreds of primary school without the basics, they will struggle at schools around the country could be forced to convert secondary school and potentially struggle throughout into academies. Schools in Birmingham, Bristol, Durham, their life. We had riots this summer that reminded us of Essex, Kent, Lancashire, Leeds and Northamptonshire that fact. We are at the coal face, and we do not need to could be next in the firing line, so this debate is of be lectured by those who, frankly, have limited experience interest to Members throughout the country and on of the inner-city context. both sides of the House. We believe in supporting a school to improve, and I will deal with three issues. The first is the absolute that is exactly what we are doing at Downhills. Results importance of standards in primary schools and the from 2011 show that the school is above the Government’s other interventions that could be made to drive up floor target for English and maths. Some 64% of pupils standards. The second is the fundamentally undemocratic achieved the national average level in both subjects, and way in which Ministers are taking this decision. The among pupils who had been in the school for at least third is the need for collaboration, not confrontation in four years, 75% did so. More than 90% of parents are ensuring that our pupils achieve the maximum that they happy with the school. We are not resting on our laurels are capable of achieving. with that 64% figure, because it still leaves too many pupils who do not succeed, but the argument that the My remarks will focus on Downhills primary school, enormous upheaval being foisted on the community is but they apply just as strongly to the other three schools justified by the results just does not hold water. Downhills in Haringey that are affected by the Minister’s decision. is above the national primary school average. Will its I have known Downhills since 1975, when I first stepped improvements continue if the school is forced through through its doors as a pupil. The school has been the process of becoming an academy over the next few serving the local community for more than 100 years. months, against the wishes of the entire community? Last week, I received a letter from a gentleman who attended Downhills during the second world war, which Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): I pay tribute stated: to my right hon. Friend for how he is representing his “I have memories of an excellent education—I was even appointed constituents in support of Downhills school, which is School Captain. My primary education at Downhills led to later an improving school. Like many in the country, it is success. I was not alone there. We were encouraged to succeed. I improving because of investment, people’s determination, hope your current efforts to secure the appropriate status for parents’ support and teachers. Does he have any idea Downhills Primary School will be successful and that they will why Downhills and a couple of other schools in Haringey help present and future pupils to have a brighter future.” have been selected for this treatment, when other schools It is not just me who shares that history and is angered have not? Is there a process by which the Department by the Minister’s decision. for Education is threatening all primary schools in the I want to make it clear that I do not oppose academies. whole country? I support academies that work with parents and the local community to raise standards. I am a pluralist in Mr Lammy: My hon. Friend raises a good point. It is education. I supported the academies programme of not clear why, perhaps apart from political reasons, the previous Government, of whom I was a member. Haringey has been selected. I certainly want to know However, just as there are good community schools and whether the Department intends to go after the 2,500 poor community schools, so there are good academies primary schools in the country whose performance is and poor academies. The Government’s attempt to lower than that of Downhills. I will come on to that force schools in Haringey to become academies assumes point. that academies are the only way to raise standards and At Downhills, 72% of pupils have English as a second that academies always raise standards. Neither is true. language and more than 40 languages are spoken by the The Government’s actions also ignore the fact that pupils. More than 45% of pupils are eligible for a free schools perform best when central and local government school meal—I mention that fact because I, too, was work in collaboration with parents, teachers and governors, eligible for free school meals when I attended Downhills— rather than against them. and the number of families living in deprivation is 445 Academy Status (Haringey)12 JANUARY 2012 Academy Status (Haringey) 446

[Mr Lammy] new deputy head was brought in from an outstanding school just a few miles up the road. The results show double the national average. Enormous numbers of that those changes are working. The trouble is that the pupils join and leave the school during the school year, Government are ignoring the results and focusing only and it has one of the largest Roma populations in the on forced academies. That approach ignores the fact country. that, just as there are good community schools and bad I raise those points not to make excuses for failure, community schools, so there are good academies and but to point out that pupils from deprived backgrounds bad academies. The last results for Marlowe academy in at Downhills actually do better than the national average. Ramsgate were even described by the former principal Speaking another language at home or being from a as “disappointing”. Mossbourne academy in Hackney deprived background is absolutely not taken as an is rightly held up by all as a vision of what can be done, excuse for failure at the school, whatever the Secretary but that goes to show that a one-size-fits-all approach of State might think. We can just look at the results—they to reforms in struggling schools does not work. speak loud and clear. It is clear that those reforms need funding. I understand Looking further into the figures, the capricious choice that times are tough, so this is not solely about spending, of Downhills becomes even more dubious. In 2011, but it is right to put on record that the Government set 2,594 primary schools obtained worse results than up a free school in Muswell Hill last year that will cost Downhills primary. In the Secretary of State’s own the taxpayer £6 million. It has 30 pupils at the moment. education authority of Surrey, 26 primary schools obtained For the Minister’s geography, Muswell Hill is a few the same results or worse. In West Sussex, the area of miles up the road in the London borough of Haringey. the Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bognor The Secretary of State could have given £100,000 to Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), who will respond every Haringey primary school and reached 30,000 to this debate, another 26 schools obtained the same children rather than 30. Given Muswell Hill’s demographic, results as Downhills or worse. Does he propose—I hope the Minister will understand why my constituents are a he will answer this question—to force those 2,594 schools little concerned and alarmed. to become academies as well? If his answer is yes, we The Minister has remarked that Haringey’s primary really will be seeing a revolution in education in this schools are the worst in inner London. They are. So country, and it will certainly get him on the 10 o’clock why does he not fund them at inner-London rates? news. Is that about standards, or is it about politics and Haringey has the same challenges as Islington, Camden ideology? I want to hear the Minister’s answer when he and Hackney, but receives £1,500 less per pupil in stands up. When we look at the results, we find that schools than those areas. For Downhills, that underfunding London schools do much better than schools in other is worth about £600,000 a year, which is equivalent to parts of the country. That is not complacency; I am one extra teacher in every classroom. Where would simply pointing out that if the Minister’s choice of Downhills primary’s standards be if we had the money schools to target was based purely on results, he would in the London borough of Haringey that we deserve? not be targeting schools in London to begin with. The Minister’s account in the newspapers this week If the Minister were motivated solely by results, would suggested that mine is an inner-city constituency, but he not have waited for the second Ofsted inspection into one that has suburban funding. I hope he will say Downhills school, which will show how the school has something about what he will do to redress that balance raised its game since the notice to improve? I remind so that we can achieve the improvement we want. him that when Ofsted made its monitoring visit in September, it said the school was on the road to The reforms are working, and the results are improving. improvement and praised the senior management team, Results and standards are vital, and although the including the head. Why is the Minister casting Ofsted Government might ignore the results, we will not. We aside and saying from Whitehall, “I know best”? Can he say loud and clear that standards matter, and we do not explain that new approach to localism, which has emerged tolerate poor results or low aspirations—I certainly do in the past few weeks? not, and there is no record of my doing anything of the sort in this House over my years as the MP for the area. The Minister must ask himself whether now is an Results have not been good enough, but they are improving, appropriate time to cause upheaval in the Tottenham and we will be relentless—working, I hope, with the schools system following the riots of last September. I Department—in seeking to improve them further. People urge him to demonstrate the sensitivity that is required want the best for their children. This mixed community, after a constituency has experienced what mine which is represented by the governing body, but also by experienced—it was witnessed on TV screens not just the wider deprivation demographics I mentioned, wants by hon. Members, but by the rest of the country and the best results for all its young people. internationally. By focusing only on forced academies, the Government I am also concerned about the undemocratic way in have ignored all the other tried and tested ways in which which these things have been done. In 2010, the Secretary standards in primary schools can be raised. A relentless of State said that academies could become the norm, focus on teaching and learning, booster lessons, a renewed but that it was “down to individual schools” to make management team, federation with thriving schools and the decision, and I support that. Has he changed his new buildings all contribute to improving standards in mind, or was it always his intention that schools could education. All could be tried, and many have been or decide their own destiny, as long as they chose the are being tried, but they have all been cast aside and destiny he had chosen for them? ignored by the Government. Two of the schools affected—Nightingale primary At Downhills, six teachers have been replaced in a school and Noel Park primary school—are in the Hornsey year. A new head was brought into Coleraine Park and Wood Green constituency. The hon. Member for school to turn the school around 18 months ago, and a Hornsey and Wood Green supports forced academies, 447 Academy Status (Haringey)12 JANUARY 2012 Academy Status (Haringey) 448 but her party’s manifesto in 2010 promised to give all Mr Lammy: I must ask the Minister to correct his use schools the freedom to innovate. It is a strange freedom of the term “inner London”. The Department does not that allows schools to innovate on the ground, but only categorise Haringey schools as inner London schools, so far as the Secretary of State will allow from Whitehall. and it certainly does not fund them as such. Will he also That freedom is not worth the name, and it is confirm that the performance of the Isle of Wight, the fundamentally different from the freedom the previous Medway towns, Peterborough and Norfolk are all below Government’s academy programme offered parents and that of Haringey, and tell us whether he will be seeking pupils. The Labour academy programme took failing to ensure that they, too, will be forced to have academies? schools—schools that parents were running away from in droves, and where discipline had gone out the window— Mr Gibb: On the right hon. Gentleman’s first point, and gave them the freedom to innovate in the best we agree with him that the funding system, which we interests of pupils, with the support and assistance of inherited from his Government, is unfair and opaque. teachers and parents. That differs hugely from the current We want to increase its transparency, and we have put programme. out a new approach for consultation. We will report on The Government talk the language of localism and that in due course. We are taking action against all pluralism, but when it comes to the crunch, we see underperforming schools in the country. We are working something quite different, which is driven solely by co-operatively with local authorities that are co-operating mandarins in Whitehall. That is fundamentally with us. A different approach is being taken by Haringey, undemocratic. There is no collaboration whatever. Given however, and that is why there is a difference in this that the Department’s Ministers are so well educated, it particular instance. is a disgrace that not even the elected MP was worthy of a phone call or a letter. That is not the way one would Mr Lammy: I think that the leader and the chief usually expect Ministers to behave when such massive executive of Haringey council would want me to place decisions are being made. The Minister has not even on record that they have been very co-operative with the sought to get to the school or to spend any time there. Department in holding conversations about this matter. Indeed, there is no record of his having spent any time The Minister will know that the mainstay of resistance in a Haringey primary in Tottenham. That is of huge in Haringey has come from the schools themselves. concern, given the decision he is about to make. The proposals are a massive shift and a departure Mr Gibb: That is very good to hear. from the policy under the previous Government. The I should like to continue with the point that I was intellectually bankrupt idea that excellence is synonymous making. Haringey has the highest number of primary with only one structure is of huge concern, and it does schools currently below the floor, out of all London not hold water. It should be abandoned, and I ask the authorities, and 12 primary schools there have been Minister to give some contrite indication of a change of below the floor for three or more of the past six years. position. Demographically similar local authorities such as Hackney, Camden, Newham, Southwark and Tower Hamlets all outperform Haringey at primary school level. 6.18 pm The floor standard is a basic acceptable level of The Minister of State, Department for Education performance by a primary school. For the record, a (Mr Nick Gibb): I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman school is below the floor if fewer than 60% of pupils are on securing the debate. I know he has a close personal achieving level 4 or above in English and maths or and constituency interest in the issue. failing to make average progress in English and maths. Last June we made it clear that our absolute priority Insisting that schools educate their pupils to level 4 is to turn around underperforming primary schools by standard is not a huge objective; nor is it unachievable. finding new academy sponsors for them. Our motivation Level 4 involves just the basics. To achieve a level 4 in is simply to raise standards for children. We want to reading, pupils need to be able to interpret and understand find lasting solutions to underperformance so that all the meaning behind a simple story. In maths, all that is children have the same opportunities in life—opportunities required is to be able to understand simple fractions that are enjoyed by children in areas neighbouring and to add, subtract, multiply and divide without the Haringey. help of a calculator. The 2011 key stage 2 tests show that Haringey primary It is unacceptable that so many children in Haringey schools went backwards, dropping 4 percentage points are being let down. As the right hon. Gentleman said, if and taking them below the national and London averages a child leaves primary school without the basics, they in English and maths. Haringey primary schools are the will struggle at secondary school and throughout life. worst performing in inner London. They have the highest Those pupils face real disadvantages when starting number of primary schools currently below the floor— secondary school and have extreme difficulty in catching up later. Mr Lammy: Will the Minister give way? In my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State’s speech last week at Haberdashers’ Aske’s Hatcham Mr Gibb: If I may, I should like to make some college, he said that pupils cannot read to learn if they progress. The right hon. Gentleman has had plenty of have not learned to read. They cannot begin to deal chances to make his point— with more advanced mathematical concepts, or with physics or chemistry or any number of other subjects, if Mr Lammy: Will the Minister give way? they have not grasped the fundamentals of arithmetic. No matter how good a secondary school is, there is a Mr Gibb: I will give way very briefly. limit to the extent to which it can pick up the pieces. It is 449 Academy Status (Haringey)12 JANUARY 2012 Academy Status (Haringey) 450

[Mr Gibb] in October, offering to visit any school wanting a further conversation. At all stages we have been clear that our for that reason alone that we want to take action to goal is school improvement, and that we believe that the secure sustainable improvements in a number of Haringey’s best route for achieving that is through schools becoming underperforming schools. sponsored academies. We have sought to work with the local authority and schools to find solutions on which Mr Lammy: Will the Minister give way? everyone can agree, as we have done successfully in Mr Gibb: I will not, if the right hon. Gentleman does many parts of the country, and as we continue to do not mind, because I want to continue to make my successfully throughout the country. argument and address the points that he has made. I agree about the importance of consulting the governing Those are schools whose history of underperformance body, and this is why officials sought another meeting and ability to sustain improvements are causing us real with each school in early December asking for their concern. Downhills primary school was judged inadequate views on these proposals. The schools in Haringey have by Ofsted in 2002 and placed in special measures. It been given time to provide representations to the Secretary came out of special measures three years later in 2005, of State on his proposed action. Before giving us their but improvements were not sustained, and in January views, we fully expect them to engage with the wider 2010 it was again judged inadequate by Ofsted and school community. We have already received a number required significant improvement. Key stage 2 results of representations from parents, governors and the show that the school has failed to meet the floor standard local community, both in support of and against the since 2005. In 2011, 61% of pupils achieved level 4 or approach we are taking in Haringey, which we will take above in English and maths, with the other 39% of into consideration. When we have the representations pupils failing to achieve that basic level. I am sure that from the schools, we will take a final decision and the right hon. Gentleman will agree that it is unacceptable inform them. It would therefore be inappropriate and for any school to have a large proportion of its pupils premature for me to comment further on the specific failing to achieve minimum standards year after year. Downhills case until we have fully considered all those We know that those standards can be met, however. representations and the circumstances of the case. Mr Lammy rose— Mr Lammy: Will the Minister confirm that the officials gave the governing body three weeks in which to find a Mr Gibb: Let me make this final point before giving sponsor—three weeks in which to go out and find some way. We know that that can be done. There are schools captain of industry to take over the school? across London with intakes as challenging as those in Mr Gibb: Discussions with the local authority have Haringey, with proportions of pupils on free school been going on in Haringey since July, and this is part of meals and where English is not their first language, that that process. are performing well above the standard. Let me cite one school I have visited in Tower Hamlets. In Osmani Let me say that this is not happening in Haringey primary school, for example, 95.8% of pupils have alone. The last Government opened 203 sponsored English as an additional language and 58% are eligible academies and we have opened another 132 since the for free school meals, yet that school has 88% achieving election. We are working with local authorities across level 4 in English and maths. That is what we want to see the country to secure better outcomes for their pupils happening in Haringey. by transforming these underperforming schools. Over 300 schools have now opened as sponsored academies, Mr Lammy: We all want to see that, but I say again to a further 1,194 have converted to academy status, and the Minister that in the boroughs that he prays in aid, more than 700 maintained primary schools are either each pupil is funded a great deal more than pupils in the open to becoming academies or in the pipeline. Those London borough of Haringey. Why does he imagine range from small rural primaries to large urban primaries that we do not need extra teachers and extra support to such as the 843-pupil Durand school in south London. bring up those pupils’ standards, but that a structural I would like to assure the right hon. Gentleman that change into an academy will fix that problem? Will he we recognise the real effort that the governing bodies say something about why the structural change per se and staff of schools are making to improve the standards will fix that problem? Where there are academies that of education at their schools in the most challenging of are failing—and there are—what will he do about it circumstances. We want to help schools that, despite the in five years’ time, given the autonomy that academies best efforts of the staff, are struggling to sustain have? improvements. We believe that substantially different solutions are required—solutions that will help the Mr Gibb: I have to say that the academies programme most disadvantaged pupils to succeed. Academy status was inherited from the right hon. Gentleman’s Government, led by a strong sponsor is the best way of providing as indeed was the funding system. Academies have quick and sustainable improvements in order to prevent made a tremendous difference in transforming more children from leaving the school without at least underperforming schools, especially in secondary schools the basic literacy and mathematical skills. where this approach has been applied. The professionals have autonomy and new leadership is brought in. It has Academy status has been very successful; it is a tried worked in practice. and tested model. A large body of evidence of pupil performance and independent reports show that the Let me make one or two things clear to the right hon. academy model— Gentleman. First, no decision about any school in Haringey has been taken at this stage. Officials have met 6.30 pm the local authority regularly since July and they have House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order met the relevant head teachers and chairs of governors No. 9(7)). 151WH 12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 152WH

prioritise. In total, 2,000 votes were cast, and the highest Westminster Hall public priority for the police was dealing with murder and serious violence. Despite the Government’s desire to unclutter the Thursday 12 January 2012 landscape, we concluded that it seems likely that the new landscape of policing will contain more bodies than the current landscape’s six. It is possible that the [MR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] Government’s changes will lead to a more logical and better functioning police landscape and ultimately make the police more successful at achieving their basic mission Policing of reducing crime and disorder, even though we will end [Relevant documents: Fourteenth Report from the Home up with more bodies. We believe that as the scale of the Affairs Committee, Session 2010-12, HC 939, and the change is unprecedented, the possibility for mistakes Government response, Cm 8223.] may be large and with us for some time. That is why, at Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting the point of publication, the Committee had particular be now adjourned.—(James Duddridge.) reservations about the timetable for the changes, including the transfer of functions from the National Policing Improvement Agency by spring 2012 and the setting up 2.30 pm of the National Crime Agency by December 2013. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The House will It has taken the Government more than a year to know, Mr Brady, that over the past 10 years, you and I announce where the functions of the NPIA will go. As have had the honour of co-chairing the Westminster the NPIA has an annual budget of £447.6 million, it is kids club Christmas party, but this is the first time that extremely important that we know those facts. The I have served under your chairmanship, and it is an continuing uncertainty was damaging to the morale of enormous privilege to do so. the 2,000 people who work for the agency, and to the I welcome this opportunity to discuss the report by efficiency and effectiveness of the police service as a the Select Committee on Home Affairs, “New Landscape whole. I am therefore glad that the gap or loophole of Policing”, which we published on 23 September 2011. was rectified by the Government’s acceptance of our A new Government always want to put their imprint on recommendation that the phasing out of the NPIA be an important area of policy, but in my 25 years in the delayed until December 2012, and by the announcement House, I have not seen the kinds of changes to policing on the future location of some of the agency’s functions. and the policing landscape that this Government initiated It is not immediately clear whether further functions when they took office. The Government propose abolishing from the NPIA will transfer to the NCA, and how some the National Policing Improvement Agency and the of the functions already earmarked for transfer to the Serious Organised Crime Agency; creating a new National NCA will relate directly to operational responses to Crime Agency, a professional body for policing and a organised crime. police-led information technology company; centralising non-IT procurement; supporting collaboration; and ending Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I thank the unnecessary bureaucracy. right hon. Gentleman, who chairs the Committee, for Our report was a response to those fundamental and giving way. Does he agree that, while it has certainly not far-reaching proposals for policing reform. Given the been perfect, the NPIA has done a very good job, and significance of the changes to this £997.3 million budget, that there is some concern that an impression has been the Committee decided to examine the proposals in given that it has not been valued by the House? It has great detail. I am pleased to see that three members of had many disparate functions, many of which have the Committee are present—my right hon. Friend the been developed very well. It is important that we put on Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), record our appreciation for the NPIA’s work during its and the hon. Members for Rochester and Strood (Mark existence. Reckless) and for Cambridge (Dr Huppert)—as well as the official spokesmen from various parties. Keith Vaz: I thank the hon. Gentleman for, and agree We have received more than 50 pieces of written with, his intervention. It is important that we put on evidence and heard from 29 witnesses, including the record the achievements of the NPIA in certain areas. Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice, the right The fact that organisations are being abolished does not hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick mean that we do not recognise the work done. I will Herbert). We have also held an informal meeting with come on to some of those organisations later. the Police Federation, attended by its chairman, Paul The fact that the location of all the NPIA functions McKeever, and Derek Barnett, who represented the has not been announced remains a concern. I hope that, Police Superintendents Association. At the invitation of during his winding-up speech, the Minister will finally the hon. Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) give us the list of all the outstanding functions and tell and my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff us where they will go. Many of the NPIA functions South and Penarth, we have also held two public bound for the NCA will have to move to the Serious meetings—in Sheringham in Norfolk and in Cardiff in Organised Crime Agency, which itself is due be abolished Wales. We put the public at the centre of our deliberations; and co-opted into the NCA by December 2013. This after all, the police exist to protect the public and shifting of resources between agencies due for closure, uphold the rule of law. To increase that involvement still before finally shifting them to the NCA, makes heavy further, we ran a nationwide polling exercise on our weather of the Government’s important principle of website, asking people what they wanted the police to uncluttering the landscape. 153WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 154WH

[Keith Vaz] review that preceded the Home Secretary’s announcement of the creation of a police-led information and SOCA was set up by the previous Government, of communications technology company, and as chairman which the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend the of the board setting up that new IT company, he is Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), was an active member— central to any future plans. He hosts seminars on behalf one of his roles was that of Policing Minister—and our of Ministers, he speaks on behalf of Ministers, and he Committee has been concerned about it for a number of advises Ministers. I have received many invitations to years. In our most recent report on the agency in 2009, seminars that the Minister for Policing was unable to we found that its budget of £476 million was used to attend, and Lord Wasserman is sent in his place. It hire 3,800 members of staff; that it was spending £15 of appears that Lord Wasserman is, in fact, acting as a public money for every pound it seized from criminal Minister, so it is very odd that he has refused to appear gangs; and that it lacked transparency in the way that it before the Committee. I hope that the Minister will have operated. Despite improvement in its performance, it is some good news for the Committee, in terms of agreeing essential that the Government’s new crime-fighting agency to allow him to attend. The Committee unanimously be set the correct targets and can use its resources wrote to the Home Secretary again on 20 October 2011 cost-effectively, so that it does not become another asking Lord Wasserman to come before us and give us SOCA. It is also not clear whether SOCA will be given answers on the development of the new company. That extra resources to help it manage the NPIA functions request was turned down. during the short-lived transition. I hope that the Minister One of the areas that the Committee has been focusing will offer clarification on that point. on with regard to policing has been the policing protocol. The lack of detail regarding the creation of the NCA was one of the central concerns of the Committee, and Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I know that remains the case. We were concerned about the that my right hon. Friend is going through a lengthy delay in appointing a head of the agency, and the lack period of not being controversial—somewhat like me—but of detail on the objectives and—most importantly—the is he coming to the point when we deal with morale in budget of this new policing agency. We welcome the the police force? appointment of Keith Bristow as the head of the NCA since the publication of our report. We felt, however, that someone occupying a position of that importance Keith Vaz: I have a feeling that my hon. Friend has ought to have appeared before the Committee before seen a copy of my speech—although I am not suggesting taking up his formal appointment. We also remain that he popped into my office, which is next door to concerned about the lack of detail on his role and his—because I will indeed come on to police morale. objectives. Will he be a civil servant, or the head of the No. 1 crime-busting agency in the country? Will he be Mr Winnick: I can assure my right hon. Friend that I Sir Humphrey or Eliot Ness? Perhaps we will find out have not seen a copy of his speech. when he appears before the Committee on Tuesday to answer some important questions. Keith Vaz: One thing is certain: my hon. Friend did The Committee still awaits the figures on the agency’s not write it for me. We will be coming on to police budget. When the Minister first appeared before the morale in a moment. Committee on 28 June, I asked his director of finance I pay tribute to the excellent work done by the hon. whether he knew the budget. He replied that it would be Member for Rochester and Strood in pursuing the issue a little higher than SOCA’s, which is £476 million. of the protocol. In the past, the Minister has been Luckily, he had the Minister next to him, who told the willing to engage with the Committee on a number of Committee that although the budget for the NCA had issues. I find him a very accessible Minister. He may not yet been set, the lion’s share of it would come from well be top of the league table, as far as my dealings SOCA. The Minister came before us again on 20 December with Home Office Ministers are concerned. 2011, following the announcement that the destination of some of the NPIA functions would be the NCA, and he could still not inform us of the budget. This is not a Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Oh! game of “Play Your Cards Right”—a little higher here, a little lower there. We want the figures. Parliament Keith Vaz: I do not have a list for shadow Ministers needs to know exactly what the budget of this new yet. However, uncharacteristically, on the issue of protocol agency will be, particularly as it is the flagship of the the Minister has let himself down. We were very keen to Government’s new policy. engage with the Government on the protocol, as it is There remain many areas where the agenda for the very important. However, there has been no engagement. future of policing is unclear. One such area is police IT. The Committee nominated the hon. Member for Rochester Despite costing the public £1.2 billion annually, we and Strood to be our representative at any meetings that concluded that took place, but unfortunately that offer was not taken “IT across the police service as a whole is not fit for purpose,” up. and that that affected the As hon. Members know, the protocol sets out “police’s ability to fulfil their basic mission of preventing crime the critical relationship between police and crime and disorder.” commissioners, the first of whom are to be elected in The Home Office has made rectifying that, through November 2012, and the police. I note that a Committee changes to police IT, a top priority. member, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff It was an error of judgment on the part of the Home South and Penarth, has announced that he will seek the Office to prevent Lord Wasserman from giving oral Labour nomination for his local area. I wish him well in evidence to our inquiry. As the author of the police IT pursuit of that. I hope that the fact that he has been 155WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 156WH endorsed by the English Chair of the Home Affairs In a Police Federation survey of 43,000 police officers Committee will not mean that he does not get the last year, 98% said that they were demoralised by how nomination. these matters were progressing. When the issue of police The Committee was the body that recommended that pay has been settled, and when that is coupled with all there ought to be a protocol, in its report on police and the other challenges that they face, there could be a crime commissioners. That move was put to the Committee fundamental shift in the standards and motivation of by the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood, and we police officers all over the country. We would be grateful put it in our report. We were delighted that the Government to hear from the Minister about the progress on that took that recommendation on board and created a subject, and about any other discussions that he has draft protocol that the Committee commented on in had with the Police Federation. detail. Of course, the problem is that although they I have to say to the Minister—again, this is allowed us to comment on the draft protocol in detail, uncharacteristic of him—that I was very disappointed none of our suggestions have been taken up. with the reply that he gave to my parliamentary question The ability to engage with Parliament on that critical when I asked how many times he had met the Police issue was important, especially as there are no police Federation. He gave me no reply. He said that he could and crime commissioners yet and the number of elected not tell me how many times because that is what the people involved in the process was pretty limited. What previous Government did. That is very odd. I thought happened was a lost opportunity, which is why the that this Government were committed to transparency. Committee wrote to the Leader of the House. I understand When the Chairman of a Select Committee tables a that on Monday there will be a debate at 4.30 pm in the parliamentary question to the Minister of Policing asking Chamber on that very issue. I hope that the Minister when he met officially—not socially or informally—the will approach that debate in the same way that he chairman of the Police Federation, he deserves a reply. I approached the Committee’s suggestions. The shadow shall take that up with Mr Speaker. Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn, is shaking his head; I thought it was he who told me, as Mr Winnick: I am sure that my right hon. Friend I walked into this Chamber, that there was a debate on recalls that when I—and indeed he—pressed the chief Monday. constable of the west midlands on the effect of cuts in that region, he said that it was bound to have an effect. Mr Hanson: I am disagreeing with my right hon. Over the period concerned, cuts in the west midlands Friend on the point about the debate being in the will be somewhere in the region of 26%. That is not Chamber; I think he will find that it is to be in Committee, disputed. It will mean 1,100 fewer police officers and upstairs. around 1,100 fewer police support officers. That is bound to have an adverse effect on dealing with criminality. Keith Vaz: There is still a debate; it is still happening, but it will be in Committee. I am most grateful. Keith Vaz: My hon. Friend is a distinguished Member from the west midlands, and I accept what he says. That Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Before is exactly what the chief constable of the west midlands the Chair of the Select Committee moves on from the said to us when we met him about these matters, so they protocol, I would like to put on the record my thanks to have to be taken very seriously. On the question of the the Government and the Treasury; I apologise, but I do reply, I will take that up with Mr Speaker, because it is a not know the constituency of whoever makes these reasonable question for hon. Members to ask. If we decisions. The protocol is an excellent document that accept that we will never get an answer to questions will be very powerful, and it is important that there be about who Ministers meet officially, then, frankly, there an opportunity for Members of Parliament, as well as is no point in coming here and no point in tabling members of the Association of Chief Police Officers questions. and representatives of police authorities, to have their say. I very much look forward to that debate and would Despite those difficulties, we need to accept that like to put on the record my thanks for it happening. officers in police forces all over the country work extremely hard and are very dedicated. The riots across the UK Keith Vaz: The debate is taking place in no small highlighted the length to which officers will go to protect measure because of all the work that the hon. Gentleman their communities and to have a positive impact on has done. local areas. Yesterday, along with the Minister, other I turn to the issue of police morale, which was raised Ministers and hon. Members, I attended a reception at in an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Downing street organised by the Prime Minister to Walsall North (Mr Winnick). For police officers up and thank police officers who had taken part in trying to down the country, the role and future of the police service quell the riots. The Prime Minister spoke eloquently have been at the forefront of the national agenda since about the bravery of those officers. It is right that we July 2010. The service will suffer more than 16,000 job realise and recognise that, during these difficult times losses before the next election, and uncertainty remains when budgets have to be cut to some extent, police over how pay and conditions will be affected by the officers face enormous problems. Winsor review and the ruling this week by the Police In the week after the Stephen Lawrence verdicts, Arbitration Tribunal. In addition, there is the two-year when there has been some criticism of how the police public sector pay freeze and the capped 1% increase operated during the original investigation, may I give beyond those two years. We have heard from the Police the Minister an example of really good practice? On Federation that the proposals for changes to police pay Boxing day, a young student was shot in the head in and conditions will have a detrimental effect on the Manchester when he was out attending the sales. He morale of the police service. was an overseas student. I was involved in this matter, 157WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 158WH

[Keith Vaz] mentioned—and the diamond jubilee and the Olympics are upcoming. The changes present a complex picture because an e-mail came from India from his family in of what the policing landscape will look like in a couple Gujarat, and they asked me to ensure that things were of years’ time, against a backdrop of a high level of in order. I am full of praise for the work that was done threat to the UK. by Greater Manchester police. I would like the Minister The Home Affairs Committee has an important to look at the letter that I have sent to the Home responsibility to scrutinise all those activities, and it has Secretary today. Within seven days, Assistant Chief shown itself perfectly capable of doing so. The Minister Constable Dawn Copley and her team in Greater with responsibility for policing will no doubt be personally Manchester arrested someone and charged them with responsible if any of those bodies fail to act in the way the murder. They sent two police officers to India to that they should, but it is clearly not possible for him to inform the family of what was happening. When the have a day-to-day handle on the progress that is being family came over here, they looked after them and made across all those different areas of policing activity. communicated with them on an hourly basis to tell Who, therefore, is actually responsible for having oversight them what was happening. We now have a date for the on a day-to-day basis of all those different activities to hearing of the person who is alleged to have murdered ensure that one is not having a knock-on effect, or an Anuj Bidve. That is an example of good practice, which unintended consequence, somewhere else? we should acknowledge when we look at what happened in the Lawrence affair; we can see how far forward we As the Home Affairs Committee report highlights—this have moved in the past few years. is reported in the Government’s response—those changes, even when complete, will not be set in stone. For instance, The Government’s changes are the most far-reaching the point about the protocol in paragraph 38 in the proposals for the police service since the 1960s, and are Government’s response, Command Paper 8223, is likely among the most significant since Sir Robert Peel laid to change once the police and crime commissioners are the foundations for modern policing nearly 200 years in post, because they may seek to make sensible changes. ago. Ministers must be commended for thinking outside There is also the issue of what will happen to counter- the box in their desire to improve policing in Britain in a terrorism. I certainly support what the Committee has radical way. However, the structures must follow their said: it would be wrong to make changes to where vision for policing in the 21st century. All the Committee counter-terrorism sits at present, but, post-Olympics, is seeking to do in its report is caution the Government there is a strong case for including it in the National to think carefully before putting their structures in Crime Agency, given that it affects all parts of the place, so that they are fit for purpose and achieve their United Kingdom. It is, therefore, a moving picture in laudable aim of reducing crime as much as possible, more respects than one. I am sure that the Minister will and provide intervention from the centre to guide long-term want to continue to ensure that these matters are reported policing. It is for that reason that we suggest, in the very to Parliament on a regular basis so that, almost month- last words of our report, that change on this massive by-month, we can see the progress that is being made on scale requires clear and strong leadership from the all these different restructuring activities. Home Office, and effective communication with the stakeholders involved in this very important process. I raised the issue of the scrutiny of police and crime commissioners by the police and crime panels and the Government at Home Office questions on 12 December. 2.54 pm I wanted reassurance that the budgets for the police and Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It is a crime panels would be sufficient to allow them to scrutinise pleasure to serve under your chairmanship once again, the police and crime commissioners in the way that was Mr Brady. I welcome the opportunity to debate the intended. The Government have said that £40,000 is set “New Landscape of Policing” report produced by the aside for that. In his response, the Minister may be able Home Affairs Committee and the Government’s response to set out how that figure was derived. On the face of it, to it. I welcome, too, the fact that many of Committee’s £40,000 for a panel to scrutinise the activities of the members are here today. police and crime commissioner does not sound like a lot I begin by saying, very much in the way that the Chair of money, certainly not in comparison with the budgets of the Home Affairs Committee, the right hon. Member of the police authorities, although they have other for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) started his contribution, responsibilities that the police and crime commissioner that there is a very busy picture when it comes to will take on. policing matters. As he stated, the NPIA will wind down by the end of this year, and SOCA will take on Mark Reckless: With the exception of two individuals, some of its responsibilities before being wound down. the police and crime panels will assist elected councillors We expect the National Crime Agency to be fully functional who already receive allowances and may lean on other by the end of next year. The elected police and crime support from their constituent councils. Surely, at least commissioners should be in post by November, and the part of process must be to provide funds to allow police authorities are being wound down at the same appropriate scrutiny, rather than putting in great dollops time. The protocol has recently been published. There is of additional money. a shadow strategic policing requirement and an organised crime co-ordination centre. Tom Brake: Councils may make a contribution in They are just some of the things that have been that respect, but at some point a police and crime panel established or are in the process of being wound down. might need to call on expertise that is not available in At the same time, it is clear that the UK remains under local authorities. If people are trying to access such threat, as it has been for many years. We have had other expertise, which may be required for the panel effectively threats or incidents—the riots in August have been to undertake its scrutiny role, it does not take too long 159WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 160WH for a substantial bill to build up. I hope that the Minister course, it may be difficult to get a single view of the will set out precisely how it will work and will reassure profession from all levels of police officers about what hon. Members that resources will be sufficient for the that professional body will look like. However, it is important task that the panels will undertake. clearly essential to engage with all of them, whether I hope that the Government will quickly review their chief constables, superintendents, police constables—the role in scrutinising the police and crime commissioners, whole range—or staff. or at least the way in which they have been implemented. I hope that the professional body will look more Given that activity is already starting in relation to carefully at black and minority ethnic recruitment into London, it is not unreasonable to hope that by sometime the police force and how BME officers do or do not in 2014, say, when the police and crime commissioners make progress within the ranks. It should take that task have been active for a couple of years, the Government on at an early stage. may want to consider whether those bodies are delivering As an aside, the professional body should, rightly, the sorts of things that we expect them to, in terms of concentrate on training. What training will be available increased accountability, greater involvement of the for both police and crime commissioners and police and public and ensuring that the police and crime commissioner crime panels? In relation to the former, what training and the chief constable are engaging effectively with the might be available to candidates who are going to be, or people who are, at the moment, excluded from that want to be, police and crime commissioners? Such consultation and engagement process. training could be beneficial. I am concerned that some I am sure that many hon. Members—possibly all candidates for those posts may not have the experience, hon. Members here—will at some point have attended knowledge or expertise that is required. Although coming the ward panel in one of the wards in their constituencies. to the job with a fresh approach may be welcome, I have done so occasionally in Wallington, South. It is understanding the environment in which people are clear that those panels receive useful input from key going to work will also be beneficial. individuals in the community. It is true to say that I shall mention efficiency, touch on one major omission young people are rarely present on those panels, and I from the new landscape and then conclude. On efficiency, suspect that those on lower incomes are underrepresented. the report clearly and rightly highlights the importance The Government will want to consider whether police of getting more out of the procurement process and out and crime commissioners and chief constables are beginning of IT. However, it is short on detail about ensuring that to engage more effectively with such groups to see the police are taking the most effective approach to whether their views, concerns and priorities, from a tackling types of crime. policing perspective, are properly taken on board. I want to see more in terms of drawing into the centre The Home Affairs Committee report and the the evidence base for what is effective from a policing Government response contain a large body of information perspective, so that we can make that information available about the professional body. I support that and want it widely to all the police and crime commissioners and rolled out quickly and, as the Committee has suggested, chief constables and can be certain that, when they in an all-encompassing way that is not exclusive in launch an initiative—whether tackling antisocial behaviour terms of its membership. That body should be doing or organised crime, at NCA level—they are using a some things at an early stage, including considering policy or approach that evidence suggests will be the national minimum recruitment standards for the police most effective possible. Doing that may require universities force, considering whether there is scope for learning and others to be more heavily involved in the research from the Teach First scheme, to see whether there are than may currently be the case. ways to get a different group of young, qualified people The Home Affairs Committee did not focus enough, into the police force, and looking at whether there is any to my liking, on the linkages that should exist between prospect of using some of the expertise that has been police and local authorities. The Chair of the Committee built up in respect of teaching schools to see whether has visited Sutton, as has the Minister with responsibility there is any role for some of our larger police stations in for the police, to look at the partnership between the that respect. local authority and the police, which has drawn together under one person police and local authority resources Keith Vaz: I was remiss at not recognising that the to tackle antisocial behaviour and so on. I would like to right hon. Gentleman appeared as a witness in the have seen that agenda pushed more, because there is no Committee during its inquiries. doubt that it has been effective in Sutton not only from a policing perspective, but in ensuring that the police, The Government’s proposal to completely and radically the local authority, the fire service and the voluntary reform the way that police officers are trained and to sector work together effectively. I would like it to have look at standards is exciting. Does the right hon. Gentleman been more prominent in the Committee report and in agree with the Committee that it is important to bring the new landscape of policing more generally. From a the profession with us when having a discussion of this policing perspective, these are exciting and challenging kind and to have the widest possible consultation, so times, and there are lots of opportunities, which is why that we have something that will last beyond this we need to keep the situation under constant review. I Government—the worst possible thing would be to hope that the Minister will reassure us there will be an have too much party politics in this—and that we ongoing and heavily engaging process for all Members. should be getting people on board and united behind a new method of education and professionalism? 3.10 pm Tom Brake: I welcome this proposal and agree that Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): the profession must be brought along and that that I am grateful to have the opportunity to speak in the requires consultation and engagement, although, of debate. I declare two interests: first, my son is the chief 161WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 162WH

[Alun Michael] youth offending teams in Wales. That is important, because the reorganisation of national organisations is executive of the North Wales police authority—something not the only challenge facing the police. that I declare when we discuss policing in the Select The challenges range from international terrorism, Committee on Home Affairs—and, secondly, that I organised crime—it seems to get more business-like by have announced my intention to seek nomination as the the day and sometimes looks as though it benefits from Labour and Co-operative candidate to be the police university-level business studies more than perhaps some commissioner for South Wales, as the Chairman of the businesses do—and the significant use of the internet Select Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for for criminal activity, across to the riots in August 2011 Leicester East (Keith Vaz), mentioned. and the ever-present problems of daily and weekly local My decision to stand for office was made not out of crime and disorder. I will touch on those logistical admiration for the frenetic pace of change since the challenges for the police and others in a moment. general election, but out of enthusiasm for protecting In evidence to the Select Committee, the Minister the best features of police work and continuing the stressed the importance of the Peelian principles. Sir Robert drive to cut crime and reduce reoffending. That enthusiasm Peel underlined two principles particularly when he is for the whole of England and Wales, which is why I established the first police force: first, that the first particularly enjoy my work on the Home Affairs Committee, responsibility of the police is to reduce crime and but it relates particularly to south Wales, which has offending, which the Minister quoted in evidence to the experienced considerable success in recent years in reducing Select Committee; and, secondly, the rather delphic crime. I want that process to accelerate, rather than utterance: flag—a point that I will return to in a few minutes. “The police are the public and the public are the police”. I do not want to repeat what is in the Select Committee To unpack that, it means that there must be confidence report, and I certainly cannot deal with all the issues on both sides of the equation—there must be trust and that it raises, which are reflected in the list of Government an understanding of the roles of the community and initiatives to which the right hon. Member for Carshalton the police. Of course, Sir Robert Peel laid down other and Wallington (Tom Brake) referred. I want to reflect issues on integrity, trust and how policing is done, primarily on the nature of policing and the Government’s which is all very important, but we must stress the role. practical implications of putting the first priority of the Reorganisation is sometimes inevitable, but it almost police at the forefront of all our discussions and debates. always leads to a drop in performance and effectiveness The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 gave clear focus to in the short term, so the advice to anyone considering it the creation of local crime and disorder reduction is to lie down in a dark room and reflect on whether the partnerships. That legislation has been enormously proposed reorganisation is really necessary. The drop in successful, as the Minister has been kind enough to performance often happens even if the ground is well acknowledge. Since then, the partnership work between prepared and the objectives clear. A problem now is the police and local authorities has been more integrated that the objectives and the eventual landscape are not into the local and wider scheme of partnership working. altogether clear and the ground has not been properly In general, that is a good thing, but there is always a prepared everywhere. danger that the specific focus on crime reduction could I give the Minister credit, because he is genuinely be eroded, and we must be careful in future to ensure committed to his role and wants to make improvements. that that is not the case. I think that we would agree on many points of principle I underline the lessons to be drawn from violence about the purpose of policing and the Government’s reduction in Cardiff. I apologise to members of the role. At a time of front-ended cuts to the police coming Select Committee who have heard me expand on that too fast and too deep, the challenge is compounded by topic more than once in the past, but it is a significant the enormous scope of the reorganisation of central demonstration of what can be achieved. With a clear functions in which the end pattern of organisations and focus on the nature of violent incidents—what provoked responsibilities is not yet clear. That is a serious drawback. them, where they happened and what could be done to The map has not yet been accurately drawn. It looks prevent them—violence in Cardiff has reduced by roughly like one from the middle ages in which certain parts of 25% ahead of the reductions in equivalent cities in the landscape are just marked by the words, “Here be England and elsewhere. Not only is that measurement dragons”, without giving full details of what is happening is based on police figures, but it has been tested in a in those territories. That is a pity, because some changes peer-reviewed article in the British Medical Journal might prove to be beneficial in the long term, as my based on evidence of the number of people who go to right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East said. If accident and emergency units requiring treatment, and there is no certainly or clarity, the short-term drop in it therefore has real validity. performance might be significant. The figures show a significantly reduced number of As the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington victims, and Victim Support has stated on more than said, we need more transparency and more clarity about one occasion that more than anything else, victims want the evidence on which the approaches are based. I agree to know that they will not become a victim again—it is with him on the need to ensure that new systems connect not retribution that they seek, but confidence and security with local authorities. For example, when we took evidence in the community. The reduction in offences is enormously in Wales, we saw the benefits of the Welsh Government important from that point of view. It reduces the waste making a joint appointment with the Youth Justice of police time. That is significant because police can Board to ensure proper understanding of national priorities attend to other things: reassuring the public and and how they link to the work of local government and investigating crime. It also reduces the burden on the 163WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 164WH

NHS. Putting people’s faces together after a serious on Justice, “Cutting crime: the case for justice reinvestment”, attack is significant and expensive for the NHS, as has was that most things that affect offending are not only been commented on by Professor Jon Shepherd, who outside the aegis of the police, but outside the criminal has led the work. We have seen that success. justice system. Therefore, connecting that, looking for I feel safe in the centre of Cardiff, because I know the evidence of the real problems experienced by the public figures show that it is a relatively safe place. However, it and ensuring they are addressed through a partnership is significant that evidence from some programmes approach, must be an absolute priority for the commissioner, undertaken by John Humphrys two years ago demonstrated as well as for the chief constable and those who lead that a lot of people find that the activity and feeling on policing locally and lead local authorities. the streets—the discourtesies, such as the noise and the Some of the costs of policing cannot be avoided, even ebullience—make them feel less safe. People’s behaviour if it is possible to reduce crime at locally. I am grateful is not based just on the facts of crime; they also react to to the Minister for meeting me and Chief Constable their environment. We need to focus on the accurate Peter Vaughan of South Wales police. I stress that that measurement of crime and its reduction to ensure that meeting took place long before I decided to stand as people are safer, but we also need a greater focus on commissioner. When we met the Minister, we focused enabling the public to know the facts and to feel safe, if on the capital city challenge that the south Wales police they are, and to know that any remaining problems are force faces, as well as policing the two great cities of being addressed. Swansea and Cardiff. It also faces the challenges of a In a leader column last week, The Guardian expressed top-slice to its finances, to assist other police forces in worry that the election of police and crime commissioners Wales. The Minister listened carefully and promised to would turn into a rat-catcher’s election. I am not entirely take away the points that we made. I hope that that will sure what was in the mind of the writer. I think that be reflected at some point in a reconsideration of the they feared that we would go to the lowest common police funding formula. denominator in debating policing and crime and populist I was on the streets of Cardiff when we had a visit sloganising in the approach to the elections. I assume from the English Defence League, a much larger that they did not want to imply that a police commissioner demonstration and march by Unite Against Fascism would be unpaid and, therefore, take revenge along and an element of conflict, with some people wanting the lines of the Pied Piper of Hamelin, by leading all the to turn it into a pitched battle, which good policing children of the police force area into the river. prevented. That took place on the same day as South Africa was playing Wales at rugby at the Millennium Mark Reckless: The right hon. Gentleman said earlier stadium, the West Indies were playing England—and that Peel’s principle was that the police should be the Wales, if I can put it in those terms—in the SWALEC public and the public should be the police. Is the problem stadium, and the Stereophonics were in concert in the not that the two have become disengaged? What will city. That was an enormous addition to the normal change under the new landscape is that, through the day-to-day work of policing. Both Cardiff and Swansea process of election, a police and crime commissioner are doing well at sport and seeking to grow and expand will be able to bring them back together. as cities. Given that set of capital-city challenges, a formula that gives Cardiff and therefore the South Alun Michael: One approaches this either with pessimism Wales police rough equivalence to the policing of similar- or optimism. I admire the hon. Gentleman’s optimism, sized cities that do not have those capital-city responsibilities as I do often in our discussions in Committee. I hope places an additional burden. I ask the Minister to that proves to be the case. I was reflecting The Guardian continue to reflect on that and find out whether he can article’s fear of populist sloganising, rather than a base develop the formula to help meet that challenge. of evidence. That is one reason for my decision to stand, The police have to plan in the light of the riots that and why all parties interested in the matter need to took place in a number of cities, including a number of ensure, given that the legislation has gone through and parts of London, last August. The Select Committee that we will have police and crime commissioners, that produced a good report, which I hope will inform they are people who can add value to the process and Government policy and assist the police in planning address the public’s experience. I hope very much—perhaps and responding to such matters, but I still have a we all need to contribute—that the outcome desired by concern. Although our approach is evidence-based, we the hon. Gentleman will be the one that we see. still do not have the sort of in-depth report that Lord The same leader referred to me as more of a builder Denning produced in response to riots in the 1980s. of partnerships and consensus than a rat-catcher. I That report was enormously important and influential. think that I take that as a compliment, because it goes [HON.MEMBERS: “Lord Scarman.”] I apologise. I am back to Peel’s principles of trying to build consensus, sure that I am referring to two equally distinguished reflect the public will and ensure that crime is reduced. Law Lords. It was Lord Scarman’s report, and I am It is of course important that the police and crime grateful for that correction. commissioner should hold the chief constable to account. It is important to note a lesson coming out of the There is the responsibility of appointing the chief constable; riots. There was an initial concern that social networks there is the responsibility of deciding the budget and might have played a part in accelerating the activity and the policing plan. All those things are vital and need some of the damage. The question was asked whether clear leadership. The commissioner will also need to something should be done to control or even close take a lead in connecting and reconnecting the police down the social networks for a period. That was answered and the public, as well as the police and the local by chief constables who appeared before us, including authorities and other organisations. One of the biggest the chief constable of Manchester. They thought about lessons that came out of the report of the Select Committee it for about two minutes and then realised that what 165WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 166WH

[Alun Michael] I was one of those who argued for the establishment of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, they had to do was engage and not try to control. There which continues to need our cross-party support. I urge was very intelligent use of networks by some forces, the Minister to look again at the serious suggestion of again particularly in Manchester. Networks were used extending its role and its flexibility to look at service to warn that, if there were riots in certain places, the improvement. Often, when people make a complaint, police would be there to deal with them, and to encourage they do not want someone to be hung out to dry or people not to be on the streets where there were clear suspended from work for six months or six years—it is dangers. sometimes for very extended periods. What they want to know is that their concerns will be addressed and that they will get a proper response. A lot is about how the Keith Vaz: My right hon. Friend has been consistent. police respond to customers and about quality control He has felt all along that there ought to be a much more and quality management. Giving more flexibility to in-depth study into what happened during the riots. enable the IPCC to address such issues might help to Darra Singh’s report is due out shortly—next week, I avoid some of the expenses arising from complaints think—and does my right hon. Friend not agree that it that fall into the sort of category to which I refer. would be appropriate to look at that first, along with what the Select Committee has done? The police are As a suggestion for the Minister to take elsewhere in undertaking their own review. Once all that information the Government, it would be good for the police service is available, we can see whether anything further needs if the Ministry of Justice looked again at the composition to be done. of the Sentencing Council, which is too focused on judges and legalities and not sufficiently focused on what works. What in sentencing makes a difference to Alun Michael: My concern is that the trail will have the likelihood of reoffending? I am repeating something gone a little cool by the time that we arrive at that that I said as a member of the Justice Committee under position, but my right hon. Friend is right that it would a Labour Government, but I commend it because I still be best to get all that information. I ask the Minister, believe it to be right and true, now as then. however, to accept that we should not rule out the need for an in-depth look at the causes by a body that could On collaboration and IT, I urge the Minister not to be do more such work than the Select Committee. The overambitious in thinking of IT schemes as a quick report does credit to the Select Committee and to the solution or providing major savings. I have some experience Select Committee system, which is developing in positive in Government IT procurement, such as of the Department ways. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’s e-nabling I am not criticising, but I believe that we are still in DEFRA programme, which no one hears about because danger of many individuals thinking that they know it was a success—that is why I am proud to refer to what caused the riots, when we do not. We know a lot it—but there are many examples of central Government about the riots. We know more as a result of the reports procurement, in particular by the Home Office, I am and we will know more as a result of further reports, sad to say, that do not inspire confidence and were but we will not have a single, comprehensive analysis perhaps over-engineered and ended up not delivering as that can inform us for the long term. expected but being more expensive and late coming into place. Learning lessons and ensuring proper procurement There is now agreement on the enormous importance are enormously important. The IT company might or of the policing protocol. I have some concern that the might not be the right vehicle for delivery, but the protocol has been written when the Home Office has Minister would need to take a keen interest in how a every right to say what it expects from the new arrangements project develops—the question is about not so much the and when the Association of Chief Police Officers is in vehicle as the processes adopted and the expertise brought existence and able to play a significant part, but not to bear to ensure that the right work is done, the right when the commissioners are in place. When they are, things procured and the objectives actually met. there will be a need to revisit the protocol. I am sure that there will be many interesting discussions between I have touched on a limited number of aspects of the different organisations and with the Minister. In a sense, Select Committee’s work on the landscape of policing, what we have is a framework, and what will be needed as well as a number of other aspects of policing. An for the longer term is more along the lines of conventions, enormous amount of change is going on. I look forward agreements and building on experience. to being a part of that process of change and ensuring that the initiative, which is now in law, results in us In particular, I agree with the comments made about improving the quality of policing and the service given the professional body. It is important that it is not only to the public, to ensure that we continue to drive down a successor to ACPO. I note the agreement in the crime and reoffending and, in particular, to drive up Government response to our report that the body ought public confidence in the police. to be inclusive from the outset, with a separate chiefs’ council, but what is not clear from the response is I certainly commend to the House the Select Committee’s whether such a council would have any policy-making report, and I very much hope that the Minister will function for professional activities. Such a body ought continue to listen to our consensual and cross-party to be separate from the professional body, and the comments and suggestions. In Committee, during our professional body needs to be owned by all police. A discussions, we challenge each other, sometimes quite new body is needed, starting with a fresh, clean sheet vigorously, but our findings—as with the Justice Committee and a focus on the professionalism of the police, rather recommendations on justice reinvestment—give food than its becoming confused with the variety of different for thought, which Ministers and the Government as a functions currently held by ACPO. whole would be wise to heed. 167WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 168WH

3.36 pm Similarly, ACPO was not subject to freedom of information, although that has now been updated. It received increased Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Thank you for responsibilities, such as control over the world’s largest calling me in the debate, Mr Brady, even if only to prove per capita DNA database, which I am pleased is changing, that one does not have to be a member of the Privy control of undercover policing and control of the policing Council to be allowed to speak. It is a great pleasure to of political groups in the UK in addition to a growing follow the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and number of income-generating activities, which stretch Penarth (Alun Michael)—perhaps one should expect a the definition of what one might call occupational Welshman to look for the dragons in the landscape. I do guidance to breaking point. not intend to describe every single aspect of that landscape, which has already been done well by the right hon. There are a number of examples of how occupational Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and my right guidance can be stretched. I have the great privilege of hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington leading for the Liberal Democrats on transport policy, (Tom Brake), who went through a number of aspects of and when the Secretary of State for Transport announced the report as well as some of the comments and suggestions a review of whether motorway speed limits should be that we, as a political party, had to make. Instead, I will raised from 70 mph to 80 mph, a key question for me pick out a valley here or a hill there, say a little more was to work out the Government’s policy on how speed about those and perhaps suggest a few routes to take limits should be enforced. The current 70 mph speed through the landscape. limit is realistically enforced not at 70 mph but at 80 mph. The speed limit depends on enforcement, The Government seek to undertake the most radical and 80 mph meaning 80 mph is a different policy from change to policing in 50 years, and there will be significant 80 mph meaning 100 mph. Those are two different changes by the end of this Parliament. We will see policies, but who decides which is implemented? How dramatic structural changes, which will have a significant would the Secretary of State decide? I have been told impact on the ground. What the public will care about that the decision on what that policy means—the effective is what will directly affect them. We should accept that speed limit in this country—was taken not by the House the merger, abolition and creation of all sorts of agencies or the Secretary of State for Transport, but by the that members of the public have generally never heard ACPO lead officer in the area. That is not a case of about will not be what they care about, and that is not ACPO deciding what equipment should be used, what what the most interesting headlines will be about. The the practicalities are or where police officers should be reforms, however, underpin delivery, so we have to get sent. A whole range of matters is for ACPO, and I them right. would not expect the Department for Transport to One of the key issues is the relationship between the decide them, but the effective speed limit applying on democratic right of citizens to decide policies and how our motorways should be controlled democratically. policing should happen—those policies might be developed Similarly, I found that ACPO guidance advises police in this place and by the Government—and the right of forces not to enforce 20 mph speed limits in cities. the police to use their expertise and knowledge to ACPO should not determine that when the Government determine operational matters. Those two rights are have made it clear that they support more 20 mph speed distinct, and we need to ensure that we understand the limits in appropriate areas. difference between them. The police obviously need to be policed, but if our control over what they do is too Under the Labour Government, ACPO—a largely strong and our grip is too tight, then they will lose that unaccountable body—was given responsibility for freedom of movement and expertise, their purpose will safeguarding some of our basic human freedoms. A be undermined and policing in this country will simply private company had the role of deciding how tasers dissolve. should be used when such weapons, if misused, can be deadly. It had similar control over DNA. ACPO sent I am concerned about how the system will operate. me an astonishing letter when questions were being Currently, operational matters are dealt with by chief asked about how people could have DNA data deleted constables, but a huge amount is driven centrally by the from the police national computer. I will happily provide Association of Chief Police Officers, which issues directives. a full copy of the letter to anyone who wants to read it. A former Cambridgeshire chief constable has said, “I It is dated 2006, and it advised that the following have an ACPO directive to do the following”. That may procedures should be adopted: not be how the system should work in theory, but, as “Upon receipt of a request for deletion of a PNC data entry has been said, in theory, theory and practice are the the force” same thing, but in practice they are not. should check that it can correctly identify the subject. ACPO has a role in co-ordinating strategic responses That is absolutely fine. The letter goes on to say that and policing strategies, and it advises the Government on important operational matters. It uses that expertise, “an applicant may request the deletion of” under the direction of Sir Hugh Orde, to direct police their forces throughout the country and to provide policy advice. Generally, it does that well, but it has been in “record/DNA sample and profile/fingerprints” existence since 1948 and, like any Government-backed and so forth when there are special circumstances. organisation with significant independence and vital When that request is made, a check should be made on responsibilities, it is liable to mission creep. whether the data entry is correct. So far so good. It In 1997, ACPO became a private company limited by continues: guarantee, so the body that sets the direction for policing “In the first instance applicants should be sent a letter informing in this country is a private company. There were technical them that the samples and associated PNC record are lawfully reasons for that, but the message that it sends is worrying. held and their request for deletion/destruction is refused”. 169WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 170WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] a lot to say on this matter—I hope that the Government regularly listen to him. He recently gave the 2011 Benjamin There is nothing before that in the letter requiring Franklin medal lecture at the Royal Society for the anyone to find out whether the information is lawfully Encouragement of Arts, Manufactures and Commerce. held, and to work out whether to refuse it. That is a He said many interesting things, and I commend his glaring omission. The letter then says that the applicant speech to anyone who might be interested. He argued may write back explaining why the data should be for the creation of a British academy of policing, which deleted, after which the chief constable should look at would be the matter and decide whether there is a case to answer. “a civil society organisation uniting police associations with That is not what we should expect, and I hope that it university faculties of policing in a self-governing professional is not what ACPO intended, but the letter certainly body”, went to several police authorities, including mine, as and could guidance on the rules. The guidance was that applications “extend the global influence of British policing”, should be rejected, and if that was questioned, the and provide politicians attempting to navigate a new police should find out whether the data were correctly policing structure with rigorous academic material. I held. That should be reformed. endorse that, because it would be excellent to have the To be fair, ACPO is in a difficult position, and I think academic knowledge from our universities linked up that Sir Hugh Orde has accepted the need to change with policing. how it operates. It has a grip on national policing but, as Sir Hugh has said, We have one of the best policing traditions in the world, but we must be able to reform it and we must be “it is not through any choice; it is because someone has to do it.” able to proceed on cogent evidence. There is always It is partly the Government’s responsibility to ensure inertia with such a force, and some of it is necessary, but that the right people are fulfilling the right tasks, and it should be changed from an evidence-based position. that we do not say, “These are tasks that the Government We need that rigorous change, and I hope that the will not do,” and force them on ACPO by accident. It is Government will continue to head down that route. clear that we need to fix ACPO, and that the Government should have that role. I totally endorse the Government’s I want to discuss some other issues. We have discussed decision to create a new professional body to provide the police IT company and organisational matters. I leadership and to develop the police as a profession. would like the police to deal with that better and to That is an extremely positive step, and I am delighted become more innovative by using small-scale ideas. I that the Government are taking it. shall give two examples, using companies that are, not coincidentally of course, in my constituency. I have I also support the idea of a body where chief constables mentioned them briefly in the House. can meet to discuss important policing matters, to deal with operational issues and to advise the Government Sepura makes radio handsets that are used by the with their expertise. That is right and proper. Chief police and other emergency services. It is doing some constables should have that role, and I support its excellent work with West Midlands police in using those facilitation. We can keep the best bits of ACPO, and get radios to record information about stop and search—I rid of the other bits. We must ensure that those will not discuss the wider aspects of stop and search—and organisations, whether councils or bodies, are accountable to log the location, time and other details of an incident and transparent. Will the Minister comment on whether that has just happened. I understand that that is extremely they will be private companies and whether they will be successful, because it saves time for police officers and subject to freedom of information? They must not provides more accurate and more accessible results. I decide the law of the land, so how will the Government am sure that the Minister remembers writing a letter to decide what is an operational matter, and how will the Sepura congratulating it on that work. I hope that we powers be outlined? will see it rolled out in other areas, and that there will be There is more we can do. During the Committee’s other innovations. investigation, it became clear to me that we still do not Real VNC does similar work, but sadly only with the have a good handle on evidence. This country has a police in the United States, where there are similar long tradition of not using evidence-based policy, which systems. Hand-held devices can be used to access the applies to policing. It would be helpful to have an main police computer in a secure and controlled way, so organisation that could provide reliable, independent, that the police can be more active, and can record and world-leading advice on policing. We need evidence- directly at the scene instead of having to wait. It goes based policing, as well as more general evidence-based without saying that all existing IT systems need to be policy. I welcome the recent establishment of the British made to work. My experience with Cambridgeshire Society of Evidence Based Policing, and I hope that the constabulary, from an evening that I spent with the Minister has had an opportunity to speak to it, and to police, was that it took about an hour and a half to hear what it has to say. One could come up with a download a video from a head-mounted camera. We number of interesting conclusions about policing styles need to fix such problems as well as be more innovative. and techniques that are driven by evidence. Britain My final plea is that we should not focus too much on leads the world. We train police officers in many parts organisations. What matters in policing concerns what of the country on executive leadership programmes, happens on the ground and with individuals, and the and the Minister, with the Chair of the Select Committee, ward of East Chesterton in Cambridge, which I used to kindly spoke at one of those events just before Christmas. represent as a county councillor, contained excellent Much of that has been driven by an academic who examples of that—I apologise to hon. Members who is now based in Cambridge. Professor Larry Sherman is have heard me make that point previously. I would love professor of criminology at that university, and he has to claim credit for all the brilliant innovations in that 171WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 172WH ward, but they were not mine and were largely driven by of people saying, “Why do I never see a police officer on PC Nick Percival—I still think of him as that, although my street?”—frankly I would be worried if I always saw he has now been promoted. He came along as our a police officer on my street—there was a hugely increased community beat manager and carried out a whole range level of satisfaction in what the police were doing at of measures that made a difference in that relatively minimal extra cost. One of the great things about deprived part of Cambridge. e-cops was that it was set up in an informal, chatty style; In his first year on the beat, Nick Percival managed it was clearly written by a PC or PCSO writing as to halve the amount of antisocial behaviour and crime themselves. The initiative was successful and spread that was reported, which was a huge achievement. If all across Cambridgeshire. It is now used more as a our officers could manage such things—I realise that it communications device, and I think that the formality is not that simple—this country would be a different has weakened some of its effect. The idea, however, was place. He also managed to arrest fewer people than was for people to know their local police as people, not only usual for that area. Some saw that as a cause for as a force to complain or argue about. criticism, but I saw it as a great triumph. Successful Policing is ultimately for and about people, not just policing involves reducing the level of crime, and a national organisations. I hope that if we implement a greater number of arrests is not the aim. number of the necessary reforms, albeit with many of I would like to highlight two things done by PC Nick the caveats described by the Committee and colleagues Percival. First, he created a link with young people. who have spoken in the debate, we will remember to That is important, especially when looking at the factors think about people and look at what we can do to make that led indirectly to the riots. We used to have a things better for them. problem, particularly during school holidays, of young people getting bored, hanging around, causing trouble 3.54 pm and smashing up bus shelters or engaging in other forms of small-scale antisocial behaviour. Nick Percival Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I, too, welcome came up with the idea of a voucher scheme. Any young your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Brady. Right person in the ward who was seen playing well during the hon. and hon. Members have already stated that policing holidays by a police officer or a PCSO—we have had a and police organisation is a complex issue. In essence, great team of PCSOs over the years—was given a however, I agree with the hon. Member for Cambridge signed voucher by that officer. At the end of the holiday, (Dr Huppert), because the issue boils down to some everybody in the class at school that had the most simple truths, as is reflected in the contributions that vouchers received a £15 voucher for the local shopping have been made. Quite simply, how do we reduce crime centre. That was a cheap measure, and it transformed and the fear of crime in an efficient and effective way the area. Rather than having groups wandering around that is accountable to the Peelian principle, already feeling bored, people would play and hope that a police mentioned, that the public are the police and the police officer would walk by. They desperately hoped that the are the public? How do we ensure that those who work cop would come over and find them, and they would in that service on our behalf are treated fairly and with say, “Hi PC Nick, good to see you.” It would be respect? I would like to explore those issues as they fantastic to see that sort of relationship in more areas. relate to the helpful report by the Committee and its Chair, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). Tom Brake: My hon. Friend provides me with the opportunity to flag up an exciting proposal that has First, however, I pay tribute to the work that our been put to me by an organisation called Cricket for police officers, and the civilian staff who support them, Change. It is keen to work with those responsible for the do daily to tackle crime and keep our communities safe. training of PCSOs, and embed within that training a The public value that work highly and want a continued, unit aimed at providing PCSOs with the skills that they visible policing presence. How we ensure that and manage need to engage young people in sport through games the landscape in which police forces work is an important such as street cricket and tag rugby. issue. As the hon. Member for Cambridge said, the public are not concerned about the organisation, the machinations involved or even, on occasion, accountability. Dr Huppert: The idea outlined by my right hon. They are concerned about outcomes. The Committee’s Friend sounds excellent, and I hope that it does well. report is an extremely thoughtful and comprehensive There is much we need to do to engage with young look at the new landscape of policing, and it raises people because of the risk that some see themselves as important issues for our consideration. somehow detached from existing organisations. When the Committee took part in visits after the riots, people described how distrust of the police already existed and [MR CLIVE BETTS in the Chair] said that from an early stage they and their families had grown up distrusting the police. We have to break that I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Betts. It is a pleasure down, and any initiative that leads to normal friendly to have you join us at the end of a fruitful discussion, relationships between the police and the general public and I hope that the Minister and I will summarise the must be a good thing. debate in a way that gives you a feeling for it. The other initiative was a system called e-cops that The Committee, under the able chairmanship of my originally started in East Chesterton but is now used right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East, hunts across Cambridgeshire. It is a regular newsletter sent by in a pack; I know that from personal experience. It the police to anybody in that area and includes information makes a great impact, and its ideas and suggestions are such as which roads PCs have been walking down. It well considered and thought through. The report highlights was transformational in East Chesterton because instead a number of questions, some of which have effectively 173WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 174WH

[Mr David Hanson] Before the Minister says so, I will say that when I was in his position, we identified £1 billion in savings, or been answered by the passing of time since the report 12% of the policing budget, in areas such as procurement, and the Government response were compiled. There overtime, reorganisation, collaboration and sharing, which are, however, still some important issues for consideration. are important. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, under Sir Denis O’Connor, confirmed that savings of My right hon. Friend mentioned the phasing out of 12% were achievable, but any more would affect the the National Policing Improvement Agency, and the front line. I fear that not only the pace of change to the impact and timing of that. Together with other members landscape, but the level of funding reduction, will affect of the Committee, he looked at the position of post- the service and add to the morale issues, which are Olympics counter-terrorism and the National Crime important to the members of the Committee who are Agency, and he urged the Government to appoint the here. head of the National Crime Agency. The former chief constable of Warwickshire, Keith Bristow, has now taken that post. My right hon. Friend also raised the Mark Reckless: Is not one of the issues with morale issue of the professional body for policing proposed by that there is confusion between the 12% cut to total Peter Neyroud in his report, and we must discuss and budgets and the 20% cut to the central grant? The flesh out some of those issues. front-loading that we hear about reflects, to a significant degree, a pay freeze in the early years. Yes, we must pay The importance of collaboration was also raised. The our police officers well, but if police officers are on previous Government focused on that issue, and tried to average getting more than what 80% or 90% of people allow police forces to obtain clear financial and operational in their area do, as Blair Gibbs of Policy Exchange says benefits from collaboration. The Committee looked at in work published this week, we must take that into IT, and I will return to that issue. The IT systems are not account and get a balance. We need the sort of reward fit for purpose, and having 43 forces use different forms that gives police pay for the right reasons, and not just of IT is not a productive use of public money. That, too, because historically the work happens to have attracted is an issue that we need to address. The Winsor review an allowance. of pay and conditions—a live issue even this week—is another subject to which I will return. There is also the Mr Hanson: I appreciate that. I know that the hon. work on bureaucracy undertaken by Jan Berry; that Gentleman took an interest in policing matters as a work is reflected on in the Committee’s report. There member of the police authority in Kent before coming are many issues to consider, and we have already heard to this place. I hope that he recognises that we tried to useful contributions to the debate. address some issues, such as pay and reward, overtime I say with genuine regret that the pace of change, and and a whole range of allowances, in the policing White the Minister’s drive and vision, which I accept is a Paper produced in 2009; that paper fell, due to the small genuine vision, still leaves the policing landscape muddled. event of the general election in 2010. I recognise that That has impacted dramatically on the morale of police those issues exist and must be tackled. I simply say to and police officers, which I believe is at an all-time him and the Minister that the pace of the changes, low—my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North coupled with massive cuts in public spending generally, (Mr Winnick) touched on that issue. Police officers to over and above the 12%, has added to morale difficulties whom I speak are not opposed to reform and recognise and will affect the front-line policing service. that changes need to be made. They object, however, to Last year, a 7.5% cut was made in the policing the manner in which the Government have gone about budget. This year, an 8.7% cut will be made if the police the work, and officers seem to have a feeling of conflict, grant settlement is approved when it comes before the rather than seeking to bring people together with the House in the next few weeks. I repeat for the benefit of Government on some of the important changes. the House that the HMIC figures for the future—they When I was fortunate enough to hold the Minister’s are not our figures—show a loss of 16,000 officers position, some of the issues that I tried to drive through and a potential loss of 16,000 civilian police staff. were similar to those that he is trying to drive through. That makes a difference. Greater Manchester will lose In the Home Office, there were issues around efficiency, 1,592 officers over the next three years, the Metropolitan procurement and ways to improve pay, condition and police will lose 1,907 over the next few years and the morale, which were—and are—important. However, I West Midlands police will lose 1,250. Even Sussex will think that the handling of those issues has dampened not be protected by the Minister, who represents it; it morale and led police officers to feel that the Government will lose 500 officers in that period. Those are not my are not on their side when it comes to fighting crime, figures; they were produced by the HMIC independently. reassuring the public, building confidence and providing That must have an impact on the policing landscape. a public service. As my right hon. Friend the Member Forces operating the A19 scheme, such as mine in north for Leicester East mentioned, that has all been done Wales, could lose some of their most experienced officers, against a background—I must refer to this—of massive ultimately replace them with less experienced officers, cuts in public spending. Those cuts are well over and and then spend money on training to improve skills. above what the previous Government planned, and are We need to consider the Select Committee report in being made at a speed that we did not plan. They are the light of those cuts and concerns. Crime fell year on front-loaded, which is not what the previous Government year for 14 or 15 years, not only under the Labour would have done. Cuts of 20% are being made. As Government but during the last two or three years of my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South the Major Government, but what is the record for the and Penarth (Alun Michael) said, that is going too far, Minister’s first year in charge? I say this with deep too fast. regret: in the first full year for which we have figures, 175WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 176WH crime has risen. Burglary has increased by 10%, household for the Serious Organised Crime Agency, considered theft by 13%, and theft from persons by 7%. Even some of the concerns and believed that changes needed during the recession under the last Government, crime to be made. fell; normally, crime rises during recessions. In the policing I welcome the broad direction of travel, but the landscape, due to confusion, change and the speed of Minister must answer certain points raised in the Select change, funding and all the other issues that we have Committee report and in this debate. The design of the discussed, crime is rising. The reduction in resources is National Crime Agency is still—I will give him the being implemented unfairly and too fast, which is causing benefit of the doubt—emerging. We need legislation for great difficulties. it, and the detail of how it will operate. When will that be forthcoming? Keith Bristow is now in post, and it The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick will be 12 or 15 months before he will begin to have a Herbert): I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for real impact. What are the key elements of the design of giving way. He always reminds me of the importance of the National Crime Agency? I understand that e-crime measuring crime by the British crime survey. Will he tell and fraud still sit outside the new agency. Are they likely me by how much crime has increased, according to the to be brought in? What will be the clarity of approach? British crime survey, during this Government’s first What will be—again, members of the Select Committee year in office? He criticised the A19 procedure, under touched on this—the governance arrangements? What which police officers can be asked to retire after 30 will be the status of the head of the National Crime years of service. Will he clarify whether he believes that Agency? How will the Minister, Ministers or the Home that procedure should be scrapped? Secretary have an impact on the day-to-day operational issues for the agency? What objectives will they set? Mr Hanson: The A19 procedure can be a useful What budget will they provide? Those are big vacuums resource; I am not against the general principle. The regarding an issue that is of importance to me and my point that I am trying to make to the Minister, in a constituents, and of importance to how we effectively measured way, is that it is being used not because the fight crime, nationally and internationally, at a time principle is useful, but because forces such as mine in when the terrorist threat is significant. north Wales must save resources due to the budget cuts that he is imposing on them. However, that is background. Keith Vaz: The points that my right hon. Friend This debate is about the landscape, not budget cuts, but raises are similar to those raised by the Select Committee, I cannot divorce the budget cuts from the landscape, as and I welcome what he says about the Opposition I think the Minister will accept. supporting the general thrust of having an NCA and the appointment of Mr Bristow as its head. Our concern— In addition, the inaugural election of the first swathe and, it seems, my right hon. Friend’s concern—is that of police and crime commissioners will be held on a the timetable may be too short; too many gaps in the cold and possibly wet Thursday in November this year. landscape may not have been filled in before the agency I am not against elections on Thursdays in November; is asked to do its work. The issue is not the principle, if they are good enough for the President of the United but the implementation. States, they might be good enough for police and crime commissioners. Mr Hanson: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I wish the Minister well on these Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Those issues; I know how difficult they are. There are real are on a Tuesday. issues of international crime, ranging from drugs to terrorism to people trafficking. There are real issues of Mr Hanson: I bow to the hon. Gentleman’s American inter-regional crime, which the crime agency can deal knowledge. It may be that it is Thursday by the time I with. There are issues of e-fraud, too. There are things wake up after watching the elections and receive the that I have not thought of that, in four years’ time, will results. That is an additional pressure. My right hon. be major crime issues and will have an impact on my Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth is constituents and the Minister’s constituents. I wish Keith participating in the election for police and crime Bristow well, in the sense that I hope that the Minister commissioners. For clarity, the Minister knows that will provide clarity on the objectives and the mission, although we oppose the principle, we will contest the give an indication of the budget and the areas of elections and will see what happens. I hope that whoever responsibility, bring forward the legislative framework is elected, we will have a series of competent, effective and give an indication of the outcomes and the governance individuals who manage big budgets and big chief officers of the agency. That would be very helpful. with experience, and who deliver a measure of I say that because at the same time that the Minister accountability to the public. I disagree with the approach; established the National Crime Agency, he gave a firm I think that we can find accountability in different ways, indication of notice to the National Policing Improvement and we considered the ways of doing so in police Agency, which did a very good job in some areas, authorities. Those are some of the key concerns that we although—as with all of us—in other areas, there was face as regards the policing landscape. the potential for criticism. It is one thing to have a My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East bonfire of the quangos and to remove the NPIA from discussed the new National Crime Agency. I welcome the policing landscape, but that announcement was the appointment of Keith Bristow, former chief constable made in July 2010. Fourteen months on, what progress of Warwickshire, as its head, and I welcome its broad is being made on the definition of the transfer and on direction. My hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth the protection of the public as a whole? The NPIA is (Mr Campbell) and I, when exercising our responsibility due to vanish in December 2012. Perhaps it is me, but I 177WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 178WH

[Mr Hanson] and he wants the police and crime commissioners to be signed up to it in due course, yet months after the initial am still unsure where the home is for police training, announcement, we are still at the stage of the Government leadership development, forensics, the police national saying, “We intend to establish a company.” computer and the DNA database. As I said, that might Let me ask the Minister this: how many police authorities be me. I will give the Minister credit. I do not have the have signed up to that company? Does he intend to information flow that he has. Perhaps that information force collaboration with the Government if they do not has been provided, but I would like to know from him sign up to it? What does he anticipate the company what is happening on those points. I say that because doing differently in the next 12 months? What will be the uncertainty means that staff are leaving. Staff will the two-to-three-year plan for the company? To whom not stay on the ship when they are not sure where the is the company accountable? When the company is ship is going. formed, what happens if someone stands for election as Whatever its difficulties and challenges, the NPIA a police and crime commissioner on a platform of did bring together, for the first time, national support wanting an independent police computer system for a for change in people, processes and technology. It did police authority, and is elected? Will the Minister compel deliver some technology and change programmes; it them to take part? helped with the development of neighbourhood policing, We need to explore those issues as part of the ongoing for example. I am not sure where that strategic view is policing landscape. I just wonder about the pace and for the future. The NPIA is due to go in December scale of the changes. I wish the Minister good luck in 2012. Police and crime commissioners will be elected by establishing the computer system, but will he please their local communities, but anyone could be elected. help us to give him that good luck by giving us answers? We do not know what the individual qualities will be of Will he give us the when, where, why, and how, and say each person elected. Where is the strategic examination who has signed up, what will happen and what will be for the future? the pace of the change? I worry about a changed landscape in which new With the NPIA going, I wonder who will be the police and crime commissioners are coming in, finding value-for-money arbiter. Who will undertake the role of their feet and getting up and running at a time when establishing the overall scheme of policing for the future? crime is not just finding its feet, when the NPIA is Let me deal with the Winsor proposals, because the exiting the stage, when the functions have not necessarily police arbitration panel has this week produced its been finalised, and when the crime agency is not yet up report. Traditionally, police arbitration panels have always and running. I worry that crime and criminals will been difficult places for Policing Ministers to go. I will continue to find ways to seep through the gaps. We need not disguise the fact that I, my predecessors and others to be ever vigilant; criminals will be. I worry about the have had occasion to engage in a hand-to-hand way speed at which things are happening and the lack of with police arbitration panels. That is not a national clarity about the journey’s end. secret. However, I would welcome the Minister’s saying We also have a concern about information and today when he intends to respond to the current police communications technology. Again, I can be helpful: arbitration panel report. Given the letter that the general the Home Secretary, on 15 December, confirmed that secretary and the chairman of the Police Federation “the Government…intend to establish an information and sent to the Home Secretary on 10 January saying that communications technology…company. The company will be they are willing to abide by the arbitration panel’s responsible for the procurement, implementation and management decision, even though it causes them some difficulty, as of complex contracts for information technology”.—[Official the Minister knows, I would particularly welcome a Report, 15 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 126WS.] response from him. Indeed, I saw a tweet—that new modern technology—only Without giving us too much information today— two hours ago from the chief of the NPIA, who says although if the Minister is able to give us information, that he is in a hot room in London talking about ICT as that would be great—is he minded to let us know we speak. whether he intends to abide by the police arbitration panel decision? More importantly, if he does not abide Nick Herbert: Good. by it, will he give the House of Commons, as he promised before the election, an opportunity to debate Mr Hanson: I say “good”, too. I would appreciate an and, potentially, vote on that decision? I would hate him update. to break an election promise. That was what the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Keith Vaz: Is it wise for the head of the NPIA, which Brake) did when he promised 3,000 extra police officers deals with organised crime, to tell all those organised and then voted to reduce the number by 16,000 over the criminals outside exactly where he is and what he is next three years. I would love the Minister to stick with doing? his election promise and accept the police arbitration panel decision—or, if he does not, allow a vote in the Mr Hanson: I think that the information he gives—“I House of Commons. am developing a computer system to close you down, I would like further information on how the Minister and to help support policing”—is not necessarily will monitor the police and crime commissioners in the operationally significant. The point that I am making to new landscape. In a written ministerial statement from the Minister is that we are in January 2012, and he has just before Christmas on the National Policing Improvement said that the elections for police and crime commissioners Agency, he said that it currently advises on value for will be in November 2012. He wants police authorities money, and that it will continue to do so until November to be signed up to the integrated computer technology, 2012. Is it his view that after that date it will be part of 179WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 180WH the policing landscape for police and crime commissioners of the public and to ensure that criminals are borne to be solely accountable for value-for-money issues down on, but to take the staff who work in that service relating to policing in their area? They will be accountable with us. for that, but I would like to know who will monitor that. My contention is that although we share some views Who will monitor their performance, and will there be with the Minister, and our desired outcomes are probably targets or guidance from the Home Office? In the the same—reduced crime, increased confidence, better written ministerial statement, he said that efficiency and valuing the staff in the service—the Minister “police and crime commissioners will drive value for money in the and I have a different approach. The Select Committee police service with further support where necessary.” has raised some concerns that the Opposition share, and I look forward to hearing the Minister answer not What does he mean? Is he going to set the ship of state only my questions but those asked by the Members sailing, or will he have some central examination of the gathered here. issue?

Finally, I have two responses on the issues of policing. 4.25 pm The first relates to leadership. I echo what the hon. Member for Cambridge said in his speech about the The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick police constable, whose name I have forgotten at the Herbert): I welcome the report of the Home Affairs moment. What struck me about the hon. Gentleman’s Committee on the “New Landscape of Policing”, to case study is that it is about leadership. In April, I will which the Government have responded, as being a very have been a Member of Parliament for my area for considered and thoughtful contribution to the changing 20 years, as will you, Mr Betts. In my 20 years, I have landscape of policing and the Government’s reforms. had 14 or 15 inspectors in my area. Most have passed I also welcome the debate that the Chairman of the through like ships in the night, on the way to either Select Committee has introduced today and the opportunity retirement or promotion. The ones who have been very that it has given for the members of the Select Committee, good are those who have really shown leadership. The the official Opposition and, indeed, the Government to performance of the police on the ground—the police consider, in a very constructive manner, the challenges constable example makes that explicit—are the people that currently face British policing. who have the best leadership skills and who show Precisely because right hon. and hon. Members have vision, commitment and energy and therefore deliver an referred to the pace of change of the reforms and energising impact. I welcome the focus on leadership because those reforms are significant, as the right hon. that has been discussed by Peter Neyroud and others in Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) said, it is important relation to improving the skills and qualifications of for me to remind them of the reasons why the Government police officers, because it is very good to energise the embarked on such a reform programme. It is not, as the police in that way. I ask the Minister how that will be right hon. Gentleman suggested, because the Government done at a national level. There are real issues that we wish to make their mark, because they are a new should examine, so that we can have a flavour of how Government or because change for change’s sake is a that will be done in future. good thing. None of those is an adequate reason to I had a last point, which I will make when I find the embark on a reform agenda of such a scale. right piece of paper—it appears to have slipped my The reason for the reforms is that policing faces notice at the moment. To conclude, we cannot consider significant challenges, which have changed—some have the changes to the policing landscape without looking changed recently and significantly—and we should ensure at their financial implications. The speed and pace of that British policing is equipped to change with them. changes introduced by the Minister is, in my view, Clearly, crime and the need to fight it are ongoing damaging to police morale. That is the end-point of this challenges, but new challenges are emerging in relation experiment—I use the word advisedly—in changes to to new forms of crime. There is ongoing concern about policing that the Minister is making. My right hon. certain forms of crime, not least serious and organised Friend the Member for Leicester East and his Select crime—hon. Members have mentioned cybercrime—and Committee have reflected concerns about the demise of there is considerable public concern about antisocial the NPIA, the approach of the new National Crime behaviour, much of which is criminality that we must Agency and the damage-to-morale issues. ensure the police can deal with. Helpfully, I have recalled my final point, just before I Therefore, there is a challenge of dealing with a high finished. It relates to the wind-down of the National volume of crime locally and ensuring that policing is Policing Improvement Agency, and to the new policing equipped to deal with national problems and national professional body. In principle, that is a good thing, threats. As that is a twin challenge, we have had to look because it relates to the leadership point that I mentioned. again at the structure of British policing. The Government Raising standards, skills and investment in policing, are not the only ones who have taken that view. It is also and looking at professional standards and at how the the view of policing professionals that the structure of Association of Chief Police Officers interfaces with the British policing needs to adapt to deal with those challenges. rest of the policing world is important. I would welcome However, there are differing visions of what those new clarification from the Minister on whether Police Federation structures should be, and I will return to that point members are signed up to the new professional body, later. and on how he will bring those important participants The second new challenge is an obvious one—it was with him on his journey to his final nirvana. What referred to by the shadow Policing Minister, the right consultation has he or the Secretary of State had with hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson)—and it is the them to date on that issue? If we are to achieve an funding situation. It is a fact that funding for policing is effective police force, we need not only the confidence being reduced during the four-year period of the spending 181WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 182WH

[Nick Herbert] reform. I would argue strongly that our approach is an entirely coherent one that enables the police to meet review, because the Government have to deal with the today’s challenges. I say that because, as I have argued deficit. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that funding before, there has been a paradox in policing in the last would have been reduced by his party if it had remained few years. That paradox is that central Government in power. Therefore, under any Government, the police interfered far too much in local policing matters and would have to deal with significant reductions in funding. were far too directive where they should not have been, There is a debate about what the level of those reductions while they were not always strong enough on the national should be, but there is no doubt now that, under any policing matters that required central Government to Government, the police would have to deal with a very exert a stronger view or influence. significant reduction in funding. At the end of a period We have sought to turn that paradox on its head and of considerable expansion, during which policing resources to restore local accountability, professional freedom have risen year on year and police numbers have risen and professional discretion where it is proper to do so, accordingly, that reduction in funding is obviously a thus freeing up the police to be the crime fighters that very significant change that the police have to deal with. they want to be and ensuring greater local accountability, The third challenge, or issue, had been neglected, at while refocusing the role of the centre and the Home least in part, for too long, although it was referred to by Office on those matters that they should be focused on, some Members during the debate, and it is the role of particularly national threats, to ensure that we have a the public in partnership with the police to help fight strong policing response not only to the terrorist threat crime. Indeed, what exactly is the relationship between but to other threats—for example, serious and organised the police and the public? That relationship can be crime. tested and has sometimes come into focus when we have The alternative vision that has been set out by some, experienced or debated certain events in policing, whether but not all, in policing was experimented with by the they are highly controversial police operations—for previous Government, and it is to create regional police instance, public order policing operations—or events in forces as a means of addressing the new challenges that relation to the ongoing discussion about community we face. That vision did not find favour in the country policing and the importance of a strong connection or in the House, and in the end the last Government between the police and the public, which is necessary to decided not to proceed with it. I do not believe that it ensure that there is community policing that commands is a deliverable vision. In the absence of the creation public confidence. As the right hon. Member for Cardiff of regional forces, if we say that we want to retain South and Penarth (Alun Michael) reminded us, Peel—the 43 individual forces—43 or thereabouts—we must then founder of modern policing—bequeathed to us the answer this question: how do we ensure that we have a important principle that the police are the public and structure that enables those 43 forces in England and the public are the police. The legitimacy of British Wales to be accountable to their local communities, policing is conferred by policing by consent and by where the chief constable is responsible for the totality public confidence in the great public service that is the of policing and those who are holding the chief constables police. to account hold them to account for the totality of The Government did not believe that it would be policing, but that ensures that those 43 forces co-operate possible for policing to rise to any of the challenges that and collaborate, so that they can work efficiently, driving I have mentioned—maintaining both public confidence out unnecessary cost, and deal with serious and organised in the police and a strong link between the police and crime and those threats that cross force boundaries? the public, dealing with declining policing budgets, In my view, it is absolutely coherent—indeed, it is ensuring a continuing fight against crime and dealing entirely the right approach—to say that we should on with the new challenges in fighting crime—with the the one hand enhance local accountability through the existing structures, nor with the means by which the election of police and crime commissioners, while on previous Government had sought to drive up standards. the other hand introducing a new national crime agency I say that in a non-partisan manner, but essentially to strengthen the fight against serious and organised those means were top-down targeting and direction that crime, to strengthen our borders and to deal with the sought to lever up standards by central control. new crime threats. Moreover, that new agency will not With that approach came a proliferation of bureaucracy only work with police forces but have a significant new and a level of direction that had not been experienced role in its relationship with those forces, as expressed in policing before. The policing pledge is a very good through a new strategic policing requirement. example. It was a highly prescriptive central pledge that told police forces exactly how they should behave—for Alun Michael: The Minister is reflecting the tension example, even how they should answer telephone calls. that exists between ensuring that strategic national and This Government have had a different approach to the regional issues are dealt with and ensuring that there is delivery of public services, which is to seek to decentralise proper local accountability. Obviously, the Government and reduce—or even eliminate—all that top-down central have chosen the election of police and crime commissioners direction. Instead, we have tried to ensure that there is as their instrument to ensure local accountability.However, greater accountability, as a means of holding public does he accept that part of the last Government’s services to account and making them responsible for approach—I suspect that it is something that he might the outcomes that they are required to deliver. agree with—was to strengthen the element of local I entirely reject the suggestion made again today by partnership by requiring the police, down at local the shadow Policing Minister that there is a lack of commander level, to work with the local authorities in coherence—indeed, that there is a muddle—in the agenda their area, by putting a responsibility on local authorities that the Government have set out in relation to police and other agencies to engage in that partnership approach 183WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 184WH and by ensuring a connection between police interpretation loaded on to it and ownership and responsibility for and the public view of crime that needed to be dealt what it was doing neither clearly with the Government with? In particular, at that local level, the police should nor with the police service. be judged on their success in reducing crime and disorder. We think that it is both coherent and right to seek greater accountability for the agency’s two principal functions. Of course, it is responsible for many other Nick Herbert: I was going to come to that, but I am things. On the one hand there is IT and the development very happy to respond to the right hon. Gentleman and of improved information and communications technology to repeat what I have said to him, to which he has kindly for policing, which is so important, and has been referred referred. The development of partnerships between the to, and on the other is the training and development police and local authorities and, indeed, other partners function, which is equally important to policing’s human was an important step forward, and he played a particularly resources. Separating those functions by creating a police- central role in ensuring that that was delivered under owned and led ICT company, for which the police the previous Government. I think that it is widely service will accept responsibility, is the right solution to accepted that such partnerships can be effective in ensure better IT and a more coherent approach. These reducing crime, and the Government wish to see them issues have bedevilled policing for too many years, and strengthened and continued, in spite of diminishing since we are having a sensible debate, we must reflect on resource. why, even after more than a decade of rapidly rising Up and down the country, I have seen action-oriented resource for policing, we have still ended up with police partnerships with a purpose that are not bureaucratic IT systems that, frankly, are not good enough. They are and that can deliver the kinds of results that the right disjointed, require multiple keyed entry by police officers hon. Gentleman was discussing. Others are more and add to the bureaucratic burden. bureaucratic, and they need to adapt to the new world in which resources are at a premium and to ensure that Mr Hanson: I want to be helpful. Will the Minister their focus is very action-oriented, but we wish the address the question I asked: how many police authorities partnerships to continue. We also wish to ensure that have signed up to or bought into the principle of a the police and crime commissioners are part of the national IT company, and what is the scope for police arrangements and do not work against them, and we commissioners, when elected, to withdraw from such a have conferred duties on all sides to ensure that. I am company? happy to endorse the important principle of partnership. We need action locally and nationally to ensure that Nick Herbert: We made the announcements about policing is structured such that can it meet the demands the destination of the functions and the establishment both of the volume of crime and of the population, in of a police-led ICT company in December, and we will relation to the day-to-day antisocial behaviour and make further announcements in due course. The principle, crime issues affecting it. However, we must also ensure however, is clear: we wish police forces to buy into that policing is equipped to deal with more serious this—to use the right hon. Gentleman’s words—and we issues, which, in the end, also affect people’s everyday expect them to do so, because it is the means by which lives. Drugs issues, for example, are linked to serious they can secure better IT in the future. and organised criminality. A new strategic policing requirement will ensure for the first time that police Mr Hanson: I do not want to be critical, just clear. If forces and the newly elected police and crime commissioners the forces do not buy into it—I accept that that is my are equipped to deal with those national threats. The phrase—will the Minister undertake to introduce creation of the National Crime Agency, along with the compulsion to ensure that they do so? Organised Crime Co-ordination Centre in an intelligence-led approach and the introduction of police and crime Nick Herbert: As I have said before, I might not have commissioners is a strong, coherent and powerful response been in the House of Commons for as long as the right to the challenges that I have described. hon. Gentleman, but I have learned not to answer hypothetical questions, and I do not intend to answer The Chairman of the Select Committee, the right that one. We expect that chief constables and police hon. Member for Leicester East, reflected on the authorities, and in succession to them police and crime Government’s ambition to declutter the policing landscape, commissioners, will be incentivised and want to be part and I welcome the fact that he noted that that would of this new arrangement for delivering IT, because it not necessarily relate to the number of bodies but could will ensure a better service for them. It is the right involve a more logical ordering of the existing national approach to securing better ICT in the future. policing bodies. I of course believe that the phasing out of the National Policing Improvement Agency was the On the other side, we have the training and development right decision, and I have said so to the Select Committee. function, and I am pleased that the Chair of the Select There were accountability issues, in spite of the many Committee and, I think, Members on both sides of the good things that the agency did and does—I certainly House have welcomed the idea of the creation of a join others in paying tribute to its functions, and I have professional body for policing. I am immensely encouraged noted the comments made by my hon. Friend the that the approach has captured the enthusiasm of police Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert). Wishing to change leaders. the accountability arrangements for the functions, however, In answer to the question about the involvement of to find a better home for them, is not the same as saying the Police Federation, it is true that the federation that the Government do not value them. The agency expressed concern about the Neyroud report, which we clearly does important things, but it has become a kind had commissioned and which first proposed a body of of Christmas tree quango, with many policing functions some kind, partly because it stated that effectively the 185WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 186WH

[Nick Herbert] on the body in charge of the professional body, but he is not so keen on the elected commissioners, whom he Association of Chief Police Officers would be the body’s wants to see on a consultative panel on the side. Has heart and soul—I think that that was the expression that been reviewed? Will the Minister clarify his remarks? used. The federation expressed the concern, among others, that it would not, therefore, be a body for the Nick Herbert: I noticed my hon. Friend’s puzzlement, rank and file. so I should have offered clarification. What I meant is that Kit Malthouse, the deputy Mayor of London who Mark Reckless: I think the phrase was “both the has responsibility for policing in London, now attends heart and the head”. the working party that I have set up, as does the chair of the Association of Police Authorities, Mark Burns- Williamson, who is also the chair of West Yorkshire Nick Herbert: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend; police authority. That side of the tripartite is now that was indeed the expression. represented, as are the policing professionals, which is We have made it clear that we wish to reconceive the important. Moreover, on Monday the arrangements idea of a professional body for policing and to ensure will change so that, effectively, the first police and crime that it is inclusive. That is one of the important principles commissioner will be created in London. That is what I that I have set out, and I have a working party looking meant. at how we would set up such a body. I am very pleased that in spite of the continued reservations of the Police Alun Michael: With the greatest respect to the Minister—I Federation, which I acknowledge because I do not wish do not want to introduce a note of disharmony—to to mislead Members, the federation’s chairman has describe the deputy Mayor of London as equivalent to been attending the working party meetings. The Police a police and crime commissioner is, frankly, ridiculous. Superintendents Association is also represented, as are The whole point of the principle of police and crime the ACPO representatives and UNISON, and we now commissioners, as the Minister has spelled out, is that have representation from the police and crime they should be elected and accountable for policing commissioners’ side as well. I am also seeking some issues to the electorate of the police force area. My independent advice for the working party. personal view is that the exclusion of the Metropolitan police and the City of London police demonstrates a Alun Michael: Unless I missed it, I do not think that lack of confidence on the Government’s part in the the Minister referred to the Police Superintendents posts that they are establishing. I do not object to their Association, and in my experience its contribution, at engagement in what will be such an important function, that level of senior but local management, can often but they really do not have the authority to be there as provide a crucial element in such discussions. Is the precursors of the police and crime commissioners. The association included? engagement of the APA’s representative is sensible in terms of continuity, but there is still a gap. Nick Herbert: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman Nick Herbert: I disagree with the right hon. Gentleman. about the value of the advice of the Police Superintendents I know that he is keen to become a police and crime Association. I certainly share his view and have mentioned commissioner—I welcome that—but he must not get that the association is represented, which is important. I ahead of himself. It is sensible to ensure, as we did in the want to make it clear that we envisage that this will be negotiations on the protocol, that there is representation an inclusive body. It is important that we raise our from those nominated by existing police authorities and sights and consider the great advantage of the creation from the deputy mayor, because he has responsibility of a professional body that will have responsibility for for holding to account a quarter of policing in England standards, professional development and training. That and Wales. As I have said, on Monday the Mayor will is something that I think has been absent from the become the police and crime commissioner, in law, for policing world. It is surprising that policing does not London, so it is entirely appropriate to have that have such a body, which will be immensely positive. representation on the working party. I emphasise that it I will explain briefly why this is so important. The is a working party. development of professionalism in policing—the acquisition of the right skills—is an important part of our agenda Alun Michael indicated dissent. to ensure that police officers are equipped to deal with modern challenges without the kind of bureaucratic Nick Herbert: I am surprised that the right hon. approach that we have seen in the past. If we are to Gentleman is shaking his head. It makes sense to have develop in policing an agenda of trusting professionals those two individuals on the working party, given the and the extension of professional discretion, we must acceleration of this process in London ahead of the ensure alongside that that police officers are trained, election of police and crime commissioners, the date of equipped and incentivised in a way that reflects the which—this November—will, as sure as night follows exercise of professional judgment, skills and discretion day, be firmly noted in the right hon. Gentleman’s diary. that commands public confidence and trust. Alun Michael: As I have said, it makes sense for Mark Reckless: The Minister has said that he has representatives of the police authorities to be involved secured representation from the police and crime in the discussion, because they have experience, which commissioners, but I am puzzled because they will not helps continuity. However, although the situation in be elected until November. In his report, Mr Neyroud London may end up in law via the attachment of the suggests that there could be ministerial representation words “police and crime commissioner”to an individual’s 187WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 188WH name, that is not what the Minister is putting in place That brings me on to the second part of my speech. everywhere else in England and Wales, namely the The first phase of the police reform agenda was about direct election of somebody to be responsible for policing structures and that work will continue as we set up the in a police force area. The situation in London is National Crime Agency. inevitably muddled, and the Mayor is also involved in decisions on a number of issues that are relevant to Keith Vaz: I am sorry to take the Minister back to an police in the rest of England and Wales. That may be earlier point in his interesting speech, but a number of reviewed in a couple of years’ time, but at the moment us who were involved in the Committee report have such decisions go well beyond the Metropolitan police raised the issue of where the functions of the NPIA will area. The situation is not as clear as the Minister go, and he has said that he will announce the destination suggests. of the rest of those functions shortly. Can he be more specific than that? Some of us have been around for a long time and know that, when Ministers say that Nick Herbert: Yes, it is. I am completely bemused by something will be announced in spring, summer or the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention. The Mayor winter, the issue tends to go on beyond the season has responsibility in London. That will become an mentioned. Can we have a definitive date—perhaps the enhanced responsibility on Monday, because the end of February or January—or something more specific? Metropolitan Police Authority will be abolished and the Mayor will take full responsibility for policing and will Nick Herbert: I am sorry, but I will not be able to give become the police and crime commissioner for London—in the right hon. Gentleman a definitive date. I can give law. The first police and crime commissioner will be him three words in due course, and we will announce created. the destination of those functions. It is important to consider and consult on these matters carefully, and Alun Michael: In law, but not reality. that is the approach we have sought to take. An issue relating to the next phase of the police Nick Herbert: In law, on Monday. It is up to the reform agenda that is so important and relevant to the Mayor whether he wishes to delegate that function. discussion we were having on the professional body is That power of delegation was, of course, established by that of people. Of course, people—police officers and the previous Government, so I am sure that there will be staff—are the greatest asset of any police force. It is no criticism of it whatsoever. It makes sense for us to those people who enable us to fight crime, and it is ensure that the deputy Mayor of London, as the person important that we ensure that they are remunerated responsible, at present, for holding to account the country’s appropriately. We also need to ensure that they are biggest police force and a quarter of all police officers, motivated and are working in employment conditions takes part in such discussions, because he can give voice and structures that reflect the demands of today’s age, to those who hold, and who will hold, police forces to that are up to date and that ensure that resources can be account. directed to the front line. It is in that regard that we established a pay and conditions review led by the independent rail regulator, Mark Reckless: When I was a member of the Kent Tom Winsor. He reported in part one of that review and police authority, I was appointed by Medway council, made proposals for changing pay and conditions. The which is an elected body. Surely that provides an analogy Government accepted the principles that he set out. with Mr Malthouse, who has been appointed by the Those proposals were remitted to the Police Negotiating elected Mayor. The purpose of this reform is to increase Board, which failed to reach agreement, so they therefore democratic accountability. Although I welcome what is went for arbitration. As the right hon. Member for happening in London, it is different from elsewhere. I Delyn has pointed out, the Police Arbitration Tribunal am not sure that Members are convinced by the idea has this week made recommendations in relation to the that someone who is merely appointed by someone who Winsor proposals. He will know that I cannot be drawn is elected, or who is an independent member of a police into giving him any indication of the Government’s authority, can somehow represent, in advance, elected response to those proposals, other than to say that the commissioners. To the extent that there is to be an Home Secretary will consider them very carefully in line elective impact, whether with the protocol or other with her statutory duties. developments, that should come from hon. Members, Police officers do an immensely important job. They who are elected, and we ask the Minister to consider often do difficult and dangerous work, they are unable our views, rather than look to people who are appointed to strike and it is important that the country values by others. them. They are relatively well-paid, and it is important that they should continue to be so and that they continue Nick Herbert: I do not consider that to be an alternative. to be valued. I appreciate that this is a difficult time for I pay attention to all views expressed on the issues, but I those who work in the police service, given that there certainly have no intention of placing a Member of are budgetary reductions, to which I will come shortly, Parliament on a working party for the development and given that police officers are being asked to accept a of the professional body. The working party consists of two-year pay freeze and changes to their pension, which policing professionals and representatives of policing is also true for other public services. I therefore appreciate organisations. I have sought to add, in a way that is the issues about morale that were raised by hon. Members entirely sensible, those who hold police forces to account. from all parties. However, it is important that the Of course, we will continue to discuss with the Committee Government take action to deal with the deficit and and with hon. Members the development of a policing ensure police forces are equipped to deal with challenges professional body, which is an entirely sensible thing. and that resources are directed appropriately. 189WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 190WH

Mr Hanson: I have tried, but I accept the Minister’s South and Penarth. I endorse that. As my hon. Friend response. Will he indicate by what date he expects to be noted, I visited Sutton, where there is a very good able to respond? If he opposes the arbitration panel’s example of police force and local authority co-operation. resource outcome, will he allow a debate in the House We would like to see more of that, but we are not going as promised previously? to prescribe it. We seek to enable and encourage such an approach, but we do not want to have a directive or Nick Herbert: I am afraid that I cannot satisfy the master plan that tells police forces how they should go right hon. Gentleman on either count. That is the about it. second hypothetical matter he has raised this evening. The right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth As I have said, we will consider the recommendations of launched his campaign to be police and crime commissioner the Police Arbitration Tribunal very carefully, and it is for south Wales. I wish him the very best of luck in that absolutely right that we should do so. regard and genuinely welcome his candidacy. He raised I join right hon. and hon. Members in paying tribute again the issue of the status of Cardiff as the capital of to police officers and, indeed, staff. The Chair of the Wales and made a bid for the force receiving some kind Select Committee referred to the reception that was of grant in recognition of that in the same way that the held in No. 10 Downing street yesterday by the Prime Metropolitan police receives a capital city grant. He has Minister to mark the contribution of those who helped raised that issue with me before, and my hon. Friend the to deal with the disorder last summer—not only police Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) has also officers, but police staff and those who worked in the raised it with me separately. In response to my hon. other emergency services and local government. The Friend, I asked the chief constable to supply me with Prime Minister spoke fulsomely about the importance the financial information that would make the case for of what they and their colleagues had done in the such a grant. Clearly, resources are tight. It is a difficult summer. request, because it would require removing grant from I myself was reminded of what police officers do for those who would otherwise be receiving it. These are the us by the dreadful stabbings of three officers that took decisions that Ministers have to take, but I have undertaken place in the Metropolitan police area before Christmas. to consider the issue in a sensible manner—I am happy Those young officers bore serious injuries. We should to reassure him about that. always remember what an important job the police do My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, whom for the country. It is also important that the Government I welcome to this debate of Privy Counsellors, spoke restates to the police service that we are having to take about the importance of evidence-based policy in policing, difficult decisions in common with those that affect as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton other public services. None of that should allow the and Wallington. I strongly agree with both of them on police service to believe that we do not value police this matter. I welcome the ideas set out by Professor officers or want to do the best for the police service in Sherman, whom I would like to meet again shortly to the future. I certainly wish to do the best for the service discuss these matters. I do not know whether my hon. in the future, and for those who work in it. Friend the Member for Cambridge can organise a convivial I will pick up one or two specific points before I dinner in Cambridge, but I would be very happy to conclude. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton attend. and Wallington (Tom Brake) mentioned the budget for police and crime panels and questioned how it is derived. Dr Huppert: I am not sure that I have ever had a It is important to restate that police and crime panels Minister make a request for such a meeting before—not are not ongoing police authorities with the responsibilities that way around. I would be delighted to host him and of police authorities. Those responsibilities will be taken Professor Sherman. I am sure that we can arrange that. by police and crime commissioners. Police and crime panels have an important scrutiny role in providing a Nick Herbert: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. check and balance that is carefully defined in the legislation That is a deal. I would be delighted to come up to the that we debated. Their role should not be expanded, town of my birth and discuss these issues with Professor and they do not need anything like the kind of resource Sherman, because they are important. The absence of that police authorities have. The limited funding that greater academic co-ordination and interest in the evidence has been provided to panels will enable them to do their for good policing practice is something that we should scrutiny job. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester collectively seek to try and redress. and Strood (Mark Reckless), who intervened, made that point very effectively. Tom Brake: Has the Minister gone further than interest I agree with the comments made by my right hon. on this matter? In the new landscape, where does he Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington think that body of evidence will be held? about the police professional body and the importance of dealing with diversity issues. That is a very good Nick Herbert: That is a very good question to which I example of the kind of thing we could expect a police do not have an immediate or off-the-cuff answer. I am professional body to take up. It is difficult to see where loth to suggest the creation of some of kind of responsibility for those issues lies at the moment. One Government-sponsored body for obvious reasons—we of the things a professional body could be responsible are seeking to reduce the number of quangos and for is ensuring that we can make greater progress in declutter the policing landscape—but that is not to say recruiting a diversity of police officers. that there is not a value in looking at who might be My right hon. Friend spoke about the importance of responsible for, or encouraging in academia, this kind collaboration with local authorities, to which I referred of work. I am not necessarily endorsing Professor Sherman’s in my response to the right hon. Member for Cardiff call for some kind British institute as an additional 191WH Policing12 JANUARY 2012 Policing 192WH policing body, but it is worth having the discussion we are going to set further targets. No, we are not going about where this kind of evidence-led approach could to set targets for police and crime commissioners. We be developed. It could be that there are aspects that can have abolished policing targets, because we seek a different be led by the professional body. Professor Sherman approach that gives greater freedom. thought otherwise—he thought that it would be for That concludes the remarks that I want to make in others—but these two things might not be mutually the debate. I apologise for speaking at some length, but exclusive. I wished seriously to engage with the points made by May I turn—briefly, because I am aware of the time hon. Members. I welcome the Home Affairs Committee’s moving on and I apologise for that—to some of the interest in these matters. I note that its report is not remarks made by the right hon. Member for Delyn? I critical of the changes in the policing landscape, although have sought to deal with some of them in relation to it has things to say about the pace of change and so on. what I consider to be the coherence of the Government’s The Government have taken those comments seriously policing reforms and the issue of the morale of police and have responded. Some of the reforms relating to officers. I cannot leave unremarked his point about the establishment of police and crime commissioners police numbers and the cuts in policing. Of course, the have been controversial, despite the cross-party buy-in kinds of reduction in police funding that the previous to the new office. However, other aspects of the reforms Government have admitted that they were considering command the support of the whole House, such as the —cuts of £1 billion a year in police funding—would creation of the police professional body, the better way inevitably have resulted in fewer people working in of dealing with policing IT, the de-bureaucratisation of policing. It is impossible to see how they could have policing and the creation of the National Crime Agency. made savings year-on-year without a smaller work force. Far from being matters of party division or contention, Therefore, it is important that those in policing should we can have a good debate about how to make the understand that reductions in manpower were going to reforms work while recognising that those are the right happen under any Government. Of course, the issue is changes to ensure that policing can rise to the challenges the extent to which that has to happen, but I point out of the 21st century and continue to ensure that crime is to the right hon. Gentleman that Her Majesty’s inspectorate fought effectively and that the public are kept safe. of constabulary’s report on what has happened so far in those reductions in funding shows just a 2% reduction 5.17 pm in officers on the front line. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): With the leave of We know that in the back and middle offices of the House, I would like to respond very briefly to the policing, using the definition supplied to us by the debate. The Minister is absolutely right that we have inspectorate of constabulary, there are approximately had a good debate about a number of issues. I want to 25,000 police officers. It is therefore simply wrong to thank those members of the Select Committee who are suggest that a reduction in manpower necessarily means here this afternoon: the hon. Members for Cambridge that the front line will be affected or damaged. The right (Dr Huppert) and for Rochester and Strood (Mark debate is about how policing should be transformed, Reckless), and my right hon. Friend the Member for restructured and made more efficient so that resource Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael). I thank the continues to get to the front line. Police forces up and Minister, the shadow Minister, my right hon. Friend down the country are showing that that is possible, and the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) and the right hon. that the kind of characterisation of the debate we have Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), seen from the Opposition is wrong and will be shown, in the Liberal Democrat spokesman on Home Affairs—we the end, to be wrong. I believe that police forces are miss him at our Select Committee deliberations, but we rising to the challenge of reorganising, driving out cost always see him at these debates. and ensuring that they can continue to deliver a service The Government have set an agenda that is, in effect, to the public. going where no person has gone before. It is rather like The right hon. Gentleman raised the issue of who being on the Starship Enterprise, with the Home Secretary would be responsible for ensuring that police and crime as a 21st-century Captain Kirk and the Minister as commissioners would deliver value for money. Of course, Mr Spock—only with much nicer ears than Mr Spock there is the ongoing responsibility of Her Majesty’s could offer us. What I can promise from the Select inspectorate of constabulary in that regard, but ultimately Committee is that we will continue to keep a watching police and crime commissioners will answer to the brief on these developments. We look forward to seeing public—that is the force of this reform. We are not the Minister on these and other matters in the future. appointing police and crime commissioners, because Question put and agreed to. the public are electing them. The commissioners will be strongly incentivised to deliver value for money for the 5.18 pm British public. The right hon. Gentleman asked whether Sitting adjourned.

17WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

These include initial additional learner support and Written Ministerial discretionary learner support allocations, which will be issued on 27 January 2012. Initial 16 to 18 apprenticeships Statements programme allocations and adult safeguarded allocations have also still to be issued. Final funding statements for all budget lines for Thursday 12 January 2012 2012-13 will be issued on 30 March 2012. The Skills Funding Agency and the Young People’s Learning Agency will monitor the impact of funding TREASURY allocations. Capital funding allocations for the £100 million two-year FE college capital investment programme, which I Anti-avoidance announced in August 2011, were confirmed by the Skills Funding Agency on 21 December. All FE colleges in England were eligible to apply for The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David capital renewal grant funding, which they could spend Gauke): The Government are committed to tackling tax on urgent capital works, or on the fees associated with avoidance to ensure the Exchequer is protected and developing enhanced renewal grant applications. fairness is maintained for the taxpayer. A total of 244 FE colleges across England were each HMRC has recently become aware of a contrived successful in securing up to £100,000 in renewal grant and aggressive avoidance scheme that seeks to generate funding. In addition, 46 of these were also successful in post-cessation trade relief for set-off by users of the securing enhanced renewal grant funding of around scheme against their other income or capital gains. This £1.9 million, taking their total grant funding up to scheme relies on arrangements that have a tax avoidance £2 million. purpose. The Government do not accept that these arrangements have the effect that is sought, but to A further 19 colleges met the required quality thresholds remove any doubt, and to prevent scheme providers but could not be funded on this occasion. I have asked continuing to devise and operate even more contrived officials of the Skills Funding Agency to continue to schemes, prompt and decisive action is being taken to work with the colleges concerned to consider how these protect the Exchequer. projects might be helped to proceed. I am today announcing that legislation will be introduced This latest programme builds upon the Government’s in Finance Bill 2012 to prevent post-cessation trade previous FE capital investments, including the £50 million relief being given where a qualifying payment or qualifying college capital investment programme which provided event arises from arrangements entered into in which 154 eligible colleges with a renewal grant of up to the main purpose, or one of the main purposes, is to £225,000 each. Of these, 21 also secured enhanced obtain a tax reduction. The legislation will have effect renewal grant funding of up to £775,000 taking their from today and will protect significant amounts of total funding to £1 million. revenue. The programme also builds upon the additional We have acted quickly to prevent the use of this £25 million that we made available to 239 eligible FE particular scheme and we will not hesitate to close colleges through the capital works grant. down other schemes representing a significant risk to The grand total of Government’s capital investment the Exchequer as we become aware of them. through these programmes of £175 million is expected Draft legislation and further details of this measure to leverage over £525 million in total project funding. are being published on HMRC’s website today.

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Red Tape Challenge Further Education Skills Funding The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant Shapps): My hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under- The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Secretary of State, Baroness Hanham, has made the Learning (Mr John Hayes): Following publication of following written ministerial statement: the annual skills investment statement for the 2012-13 I would like to inform the House that the Government are academic year by the Department of Business, Innovation launching the housing and construction theme on the Cabinet and Skills on 1 December 2011, the Skills Funding Office’s red tape challenge website. The theme will include housing Agency issued 1,030 initial funding allocation statements, and construction related regulations and consider whether excessive announcing recurrent funding allocations to FE colleges or complicated legislation is a barrier to reinvigorating housing and other skills providers in England, on 16 December. and construction in this country. The allocations in question total £2.3 billion, which This review should be taken in context of the policies and includes the largest ever allocation of funding to support measures announced in November’s housing strategy. That strategy apprenticeships. outlines how the Government are committed to better environmental standards; more affordable housing; security of tenure; legal Some providers will be able to access additional protection for tenants and leaseholders; and support for the funds not included in the initial funding statement. elderly, vulnerable households and those on low incomes. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

We have already taken a series of steps to cut unnecessary red selective advantages to offshore companies. It held that tape, including abolishing home information packs, reducing in view of its finding on material selectivity it was not burdens on short-term holiday lets, removing blanket regulation relevant to examine whether Gibraltar’s proposals were on houses of multiple occupation that would have reduced choice regionally selective. for tenants, and introduced new freedoms and flexibilities for social landlords via the Localism Act. This review will help The ECJ’s decision not to examine the issue of regional inform the scope for farther reductions of such unnecessary and selectivity means that there has been no change in the disproportionate red tape. principles established by the Court in the Azores case (ECJ case C-88/03 Portugal v Commission). According to those principles autonomous regional bodies within an EU member state may set lower levels of tax than in FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE the rest of the member state without giving rise to state aid provided that certain criteria for determining the autonomous status of the regional body are met. In Taxation in Gibraltar (European Court Judgment) accordance with its constitutional arrangements, Gibraltar is a fiscally autonomous entity with responsibility for the management of its economy, including taxation, The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth vested in the Government of Gibraltar. The UK is Affairs (Mr William Hague): On 15 November 2011 the committed to upholding the Gibraltar constitution. Court of Justice of the European Union (ECJ) published The ECJ’s judgment of 15 November 2011 does not its judgment in appeal cases brought by the European change Gibraltar’s constitutional relationship with the Commission and Spain against the United Kingdom UK or Gibraltar’s freedom to set a tax regime that and the Government of Gibraltar on the issue of whether differs from the UK’s. corporation tax changes proposed by the Government of Gibraltar in 2002 breached EU rules on state aid. In It is for the Government of Gibraltar, as the authority this judgment the ECJ has set aside the earlier judgment responsible for the tax system in Gibraltar, to consider of the General Court of the European Union (General the implications for Gibraltar of the ECJ’s ruling on Court) dated 18 December 2008 and has found that the material selectivity. proposed tax regime, which was abandoned some time On 15 November 2011 the then Government of Gibraltar ago and was never implemented in Gibraltar, constituted issued a statement which stated that the judgment would state aid on grounds of material selectivity. have no adverse impact on Gibraltar since the proposed tax scheme that was examined by the ECJ had never The background to this case is that in August 2002 been implemented and the proposal had since been the UK notified the Commission, pursuant to article 88(3) abandoned in favour of an income tax of 10% for all of the then EC treaty (now article 108(3) TfEU), that companies. The new Government of Gibraltar takes Gibraltar proposed to make changes to its tax system the same view. that would involve the introduction of a payroll tax and a business property occupation tax (BPOT). The The Government will keep the House informed of Commission’s decision of March 2004 found that the any further significant developments. payroll tax and BPOT were materially selective because they would inherently favour offshore companies that Sri Lankan Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation had no physical presence in Gibraltar and which, as a Commission Report consequence, would not incur corporation tax. The Commission also found that the proposed changes to Gibraltar’s tax system were regionally selective on the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign grounds that they provided for a system under which and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): I would like companies in Gibraltar would be taxed, in general, at a to inform the House of the Government’s views on the lower rate than those in the UK. Sri Lankan Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation The UK and the Government of Gibraltar both Commission’s (LLRC) report, which was published on contested the Commission’s decision in respect of both 16 December 2011. The LLRC was established in May material and regional selectivity. On 18 December 2008 2010 to look into the conflict between the Sri Lankan the Court of First Instance (now the General Court) Government and the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam annulled the Commission’s decision. The General Court (LTTE). found that Gibraltar’s tax proposals did not breach EU The British Government welcome the fact that the rules on state aid on grounds of material selectivity. LLRC report has been published in full. We have read Moreover the General Court ruled that the frame of the report closely and have considered in particular its reference for assessing whether Gibraltar’s proposals findings relating to: reconciliation and an enduring were regionally selective corresponded exclusively to political solution in the north and east; accountability Gibraltar’s territorial limits. The General Court therefore for alleged war crimes committed during the conflict; upheld, under EU law, Gibraltar’s freedom to set tax and ongoing human rights issues in Sri Lanka. rates that are different from those in the UK. We have noted the Sri Lankan Government’s initial The Commission and Spain both brought appeal response to the report. We have also seen statements actions asking the ECJ to set aside the General Court’s from political parties in Sri Lanka, from respected judgment. The Commission’s single ground of appeal human rights organisations and from other Governments. was on the question of material selectivity. Spain appealed The British Government believe that the report on both regional and material selectivity. The ECJ’s contains many constructive recommendations for action judgment of 15 November 2011 is the final ruling in on post-conflict reconciliation and a political settlement. these proceedings. The ECJ found that Gibraltar’s tax Implementation of these recommendations, however, is proposals were materially selective in that they granted the real test of Sri Lanka’s progress. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

We note the commission’s conclusion that the root Sri Lanka’s aim of achieving reconciliation amongst cause of the ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka lies in the its people is one we value. It can be achieved through an failure of successive Governments to address the genuine honest acknowledgement of the past and processes, in grievances of the Tamil people and the recommendation which all parties take part, to ensure justice, reconciliation that the Sri Lankan Government should take the lead in and political progress. delivering a devolution package. We urge the Sri Lankan We remain committed to helping Sri Lanka achieve Government to implement quickly this recommendation lasting peace and reconciliation and will work with and the LLRC’s call for the Northern Province to be international partners to this end, including with the returned to civilian administration. We note the Sri Lankan assistance of relevant international organisations. Government’s recent assurance that they will ensure the withdrawal of security forces from all aspects of community life and restrict their role exclusively to security matters. HEALTH We agree with the recommendation that more action be taken to help internally displaced persons rebuild their lives. We also agree that the Government should Health and Criminal Justice Liaison and make available to relatives a list of all detainees in Diversion Programme custody since the end of the conflict; publicly declare all detention sites; and allow family, judicial and International Committee of the Red Cross access. We support the call The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul for anyone responsible for unlawful detentions to be Burstow): In March 2011, I announced investment in prosecuted. the development of health and criminal justice liaison and diversion services of £5 million over the course of The British Government are, on the whole, disappointed the year (2011-12). I am pleased to announce that by the report’s findings and recommendations on investment in these services will be further increased to accountability. Like many others, we feel that these £19.4 million for 2012-13. leave many gaps and unanswered questions. We welcome the acknowledgement that “considerable civilian casualties” Liaison and diversion services aim to ensure that occurred during the final stages of the conflict and the wherever offenders are in the criminal justice system, recommendation that specific incidents require further their health needs or vulnerabilities are identified and investigation. But we note that many credible allegations assessed and they are linked to appropriate treatment of violations of international humanitarian law and services. Information about their needs can then be human rights law, including from the UN panel of provided to the police and courts to enable them to experts report, are either not addressed or only partially make informed decisions about charging and sentencing. answered. We believe that video footage, authenticated Addressing their needs is also expected to contribute to by UN special rapporteurs, should inform substantive, a reduction in the likelihood of their reoffending. Liaison not just technical, investigations into apparent grave and diversion services will be accessible to all offenders— abuses. whether adult men or women, children and young people, and whether they have a mental health or substance The British Government believe that the report’s misuse problem, learning disability or personality disorder. recommendations on ongoing human rights issues in Work over the past year has allowed us to set up a Sri Lanka are well founded. We hope they will be liaison and diversion network, consisting of 94 adult implemented vigorously. We welcome especially the focus and youth pathfinder sites, alongside 10 police forces on tackling attacks on media freedom and disappearances who are exploring the transfer of commissioning —including thousands of outstanding cases. responsibility for health services in police custody suites to the NHS. These pathfinder sites are leading the way We encourage the Sri Lankan Government to move in developing how diversion services will work in the quickly to implement the LLRC report’s recommendations. future, as well as understanding the costs and benefits Some recommendations could be completed in a they generate, to inform a decision about rolling out matter of months. Others may take time to implement new services across the country. fully, but initial steps can be taken now. Ultimately, the success or failure of the LLRC will be judged Over the next three years, this network of sites will on the Sri Lankan Government’s implementation of its focus on developing an implementation plan which recommendations. will include: guidance on good practice; On accountability, implementing the report’s quality standards and outcomes; and recommendations would represent a useful first step. work force development and training plan. But we continue to believe it is important that an Increased investment will also allow selected pathfinder independent, credible and thorough mechanism is put sites to test different elements of service provision, and in place to investigate all allegations of grave abuses. will include looking at treatment-based options for The British Government have consistently condemned sentencers as an alternative to custody for those with terrorism in all its forms. The LTTE is a brutal and health needs or vulnerabilities. This testing work will be ruthless organisation which remains proscribed in the particularly important for developing a consistent service UK. Our long-term interest is in a stable, peaceful model and informing the set-up of the remainder of Sri Lanka, free from the scourge of terrorism, and as a diversion services during roll-out. fellow member of the Commonwealth, conforming The pathfinder sites are already providing information to the standards and values which Commonwealth on their services which will contribute to the development membership requires. of the business case (due for completion in early 2013), 23WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS which will inform a ministerial decision on full roll out. implications for the regulation of EAPCs, and it would We will also undertake a fuller evaluation to capture the therefore be unhelpful to make amendments at this time best of local learning and explore options for making which might need to be subsequently repealed. schemes available nationally by 2014. An evaluation of A detailed summary of the responses to the consultation six existing youth justice liaison and diversion pilots has will be available in the Libraries of both Houses and already taken place and the report from this work is due will be available on the Department’s website at: to be published early this year. http://www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft-2010-02 These services are integral to the delivery of the Government’s vision for the rehabilitation of offenders, as well as the cross-Government strategy on improving WORK AND PENSIONS mental health outcomes, both of which were published last year. Both the Department of Health and Ministry Welfare Reform Bill of Justice are committed to this work, as reflected in both departmental business plans, and are working The Minister of State, Department for Work and together to deliver liaison and diversion services across Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Department for Work the country by 2014. and Pensions has obtained approval for a second advance from the Contingencies Fund of £3.737 million to allow JUSTICE for the continuance of work related to the introduction of employment and support allowance (ESA) time-limiting and the abolition of ESA youth, including the development Compensation Act 2006 of IT, before Royal Assent. This is a second advance, required as there is now greater clarity around the date The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice for Royal Assent now that the Welfare Reform Bill has (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am today laying before the reached Report stage in the Lords. In September 2011, I House the Government’s memorandum to the Justice informed Parliament of a £2.705 million advance for Committee on post-legislative scrutiny of the Compensation the same purpose. Act 2006. Copies have been placed in the Libraries of This second advance will allow the ESA time-limiting both Houses. and abolition of youth project to continue to work to its The Compensation Act 2006 contains provisions relating current design and development timetable and enable to two separate and distinct areas: part 1 contains continuity of third-party supplier engagement. Subject provisions restating and clarifying the law of negligence to Royal Assent, this will enable the change to be and breach of statutory duty, and provisions addressing introduced from 30 April 2012. This will bring ESA a practical difficulty that had arisen in relation to more in line with other contributory benefit regimes. It proving liability for the asbestos-related disease of will also simplify the rules governing ESA, making it mesothelioma; and part 2 provides the framework for easier to administer and preparing the way for the the regulation of claims management services. introduction of universal credit. These reforms have been implemented, in line with Parliamentary approval for resources of £3,737,000 the stated objectives of the Act, as detailed in the for this new service has been sought in the main estimate memorandum. 2011-12, but is subject to the approval of the Welfare Reform Bill. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure of £3,737,000 will be met by repayable cash advances TRANSPORT from the Contingencies Fund.

Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles Welfare Reform Bill

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport The Minister of State, Department for Work and (Mike Penning): I am today publishing the responses to Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Department for Work a public consultation which sought views on proposals and Pensions has obtained approval for an advance, to provide closer alignment of GB regulations with prior to Royal Assent, from the Contingency Fund of European rules. £1,000,000 . The funding will allow for the development The consultation was launched on 5 January 2010 in of the IT changes required to introduce new benefit conjunction with a related consultation on electric personal fraud and claimant error sanctions. vehicles (EPVs) and ran until 30 March 2010. The A tougher fraud and error regime was set out in the EAPC regulations were also included within the “Retail” “Tackling fraud and error in the benefit and tax credit and “Road Transportation” themes of the “Red Tape systems” strategy published in October 2010 and changes Challenge” which ran from 7 April to 17 June 2011. to sanctions and penalties are included in the Welfare The Department has considered the responses and Reform Bill. They provide for the introduction of a civil supports recommendations to harmonise power limits penalty for claimant error and strengthen sanctions for (from 200 watts to 250 watts) with similar provisions in benefit fraudsters. To enable their introduction changes place across the EU—allowing consumers access to a to the Departments’ IT systems will be required. The wider range of electrically assisted cycles. contingency advance will enable the IT provider to Regulatory proposals will be developed to update begin work in January 2012 giving them sufficient lead power limits and consider other amendments, for example in time to commence changes in 2012. on weight limits, once EU discussions on a much wider The advance from the Contingency Fund will allow group of two, three and light four-wheeled vehicles essential work to commence on the detailed process conclude. The outcome of EU discussions could have design and IT changes. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements12 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

Parliamentary approval for resources and capital off Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission. However, 1,000,000 for this new service has already been sought it did not provide consent in respect of the provisions in the main estimate for the Department for Work and in the Bill which give Scottish Ministers the power to Pensions, subject to the passage of the Welfare Reform make consequential, supplementary, incidental or Bill. Pending approval of that Bill, urgent expenditure transitional provisions, by regulations, in relation to the estimated at off 1,000,000 will be met by a repayable introduction of universal credit and personal independence cash advance from the Contingencies Fund. payment. The Scottish Government have opted to bring forward legislation in their own Parliament in due course Welfare Reform Bill (Third Reading Amendments) to make the required changes.

The Minister of State, Department for Work and Therefore, in order to ensure the UK Government Pensions (Chris Grayling): On 22 December 2011 the adhere to the principles of the Sewel convention, they Scottish Parliament voted on a legislative consent motion will bring forward amendments at Third Reading of the to the Welfare Reform Bill which is currently at Report Welfare Reform Bill to remove the relevant provisions stage in the House of Lords. Although social security is from the Bill. a reserved matter, legislative consent is required from These amendments will not affect the implementation the devolved Administrations for a number of aspects of either universal credit or personal independence of the Bill. payment. Legislative consent was given, where required, in respect of the provisions in the Bill relating to data Noble Lords will be given an opportunity to consider sharing, industrial injuries disablement benefit and the these amendments further at Third Reading.

3P Petitions12 JANUARY 2012 Petitions 4P

Observations from the Secretary of State for Business, Petition Innovation and Skills: The Government recognise that any changes to local Thursday 12 January 2012 delivery offices may raise concerns about the impact of such changes on local postal services. OBSERVATIONS The restructuring of Royal Mail’s delivery operations, not just in Kidsgrove but right across the UK, forms part of its much needed national programme of BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS modernisation. This programme will ensure that the Royal Mail Delivery Office, Kidsgrove, Staffordshire company has the right delivery infrastructure in the right locations to enable it to deliver the universal The Petition of residents of Kidsgrove, Staffordshire postal service as effectively and efficiently as possible. and others, Given the very real challenges facing the business, such Declares that the Petitioners believe that the proposed as the falling volumes of letters, modernisation and relocation of the Royal Mail Delivery Office from Kidsgrove transformation of its network is essential if it is to to Newcastle-under-Lyme, without consultation with thrive and the universal postal service is to be maintained. local people and businesses, will result in a deterioration Responsibility for the restructuring is an operational of local services, will be detrimental to local businesses, matter which rests with Royal Mail’s senior management and cause an increased carbon footprint. team. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take all possible When planning any operational changes, the company steps to ensure that Royal Mail consults with local will always give due consideration to how best it can partners to improve delivery services in line with the continue to protect the interests of its customers and commercial and domestic needs of the Kidsgrove, ST7 ensure it delivers a high quality service. area and reviews the proposed relocation accordingly. The company conducts a consultation process with And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Joan its staff and unions on its restructuring plans, but it is Walley, Official Report, 13 December 2011; Vol. 537, not obliged to consult publicly on its proposals. However, c. 762.] it aims to keep all interested stakeholders informed, [P000988] engaged and updated as its plans develop.

379W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 380W Written Answers to Cod: EU Law

Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Questions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what steps she is taking to pause the implementation of European Thursday 12 January 2012 Council Regulation 1342/2008; [85819] (2) what discussions she has had with the Prime Minister on (a) the implementation of European Council Regulation 1342/2008 and (b) the cod recovery programme; HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION [85822] (3) what recent steps have been taken at the European Former Members: Security Council on (a) reform of the Common Fisheries Policy and (b) the cod recovery programme; [85820] John Mann: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, (4) what plans she has to meet with representatives of Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of the fishing sector. [85821] Commons Commission, how many former hon. Members have passes to enter the Palace of Westminster. [88895] Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, John Thurso: On 11 January 2012 there were 358 Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the ex-Member passes allowing access to the Palace of Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), meets regularly Westminster. These figures do not include former Members with the Prime Minister and updates him and Cabinet who are Peers or researchers for Members. Office colleagues on important developments. As UK Fisheries Minister, I worked closely with Fisheries Ministers for Northern Ireland and Scotland to resolve the issues Parliament’s Education Service concerning implementation of the European Council Regulation 1342/2008, also known as the cod recovery John Mann: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, plan. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of I continue to meet and have discussions about (a) reform Commons Commission, how many schools visited of the Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) and (b) Parliament (a) in total and (b) from Nottinghamshire improvements to the cod recovery plan with a wide through the Parliamentary Education Service in 2011. range of people and organisations. They include the EU [88894] Commission, Members of the UK and European Parliaments, ministerial colleagues of other member John Thurso: 946 schools visited Parliament through states and representatives of our fishing and related Parliament’s Education Service in 2011, of which 12 were industries. from Nottinghamshire. The total number of students visiting Parliament on I met representatives of the Northern Ireland fisheries these visits was 39,972; of these, 371 were from industry on 9 December 2011 and continued to meet Nottinghamshire. with representatives from across the UK in the lead up to and during the annual fisheries negotiations at the December EU Fisheries Council, and my officials maintained close contact with industry representatives as discussions developed. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS We have serious concerns about the way the cod Birds: Nature Conservation recovery plan operates in practice and we have called for the existing plan to be revised as soon as possible. In the meantime UK fishermen were facing devastating Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for reductions to the amount of time they could spend at Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to sea catching their quota under this plan. The threatened Biodiversity 2020: A Strategy for England’s Wildlife reductions not only put in jeopardy the livelihoods of and Ecosystem Services, what steps she plans to take to UK fishermen but would have also led to increased discards. prevent the extinction of breeding bird species in England. [88871] However, following three weeks of protracted discussions culminating in two days of intense negotiations, the Richard Benyon: ‘Biodiversity 2020’ sets out a wide Government successfully convinced the EU Commission range of actions over the next decade. The strategy that the UK approach to conservation was the right entails a shift in emphasis towards a more effective, way forward. Fishermen in all affected member states more integrated landscape-scale approach to conservation, will still face an expected reduction in the amount of exemplified by our Nature Improvement Areas initiative. time they are allowed to fish, but this concession from It also commits to the development of a prioritised the Commission will allow the UK to develop more programme of targeted action for those priority species conservation measures and provide incentives for fishermen whose conservation is not delivered through wider habitat to take them up. measures. To ensure the future of cod in our seas, the Government Work is under way on producing the first delivery will also build on their work with the fishing industry to plan for the strategy which will set out more detailed adopt further measures to protect cod stocks and reduce actions. discards. During the negotiations at Council, the 381W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 382W

Government also successfully protected the fishing industry since May 2010; and what the turnover rate was for staff in Northern Ireland by securing the same quota of in her private office between May 2010 and May 2011. nephrops as last year. [86294] Giant Hogweed Mrs Gillan: Changes to the private office have occurred primarily as a consequence of steps the Department has David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for taken to provide a more efficient and effective service to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance Ministers, including merging what were previously two she has issued to police forces to enable them to enforce separately staffed private offices and the establishment section 14(2) of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 of a common parliamentary team supporting the Wales in respect of giant hogweed; and if she will make a Office, Scotland Office and Northern Ireland Office. statement. [89036] 11 members of private office (which includes the correspondence unit and the parliamentary team) have Richard Benyon: DEFRA and the Welsh Assembly left the Department since May 2010, with a turnover Government have published guidance on section 14 of rate of 50% between May 2010 and May 2011. the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 for enforcement agencies, licensing authorities and other interested parties. Of the staff who have left the Wales Office, four have The guidance covers all species including giant hogweed, taken the opportunity for voluntary exit; three returned to which section 14 applies, and is available on the to the Welsh Government; two had come to the end of DEFRA website at: their fixed term appointments and two took lateral transfers. www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/wildlife-countryside- act.pdf Mr Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what the staff turnover rate was in her Department in each of the last five years. [86295] CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr David Jones: The levels of staff turnover are Olympic Games 2012 shown in the following table:

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Turnover rate (%) Olympics, Media and Sport which Ministers will attend the opening ceremony of the London 2012 Olympic 2006-07 14 Games (a) in an official capacity and (b) as official 2007-08 26 guests of third parties. [88815] 2008-09 18 2009-10 15 Hugh Robertson: No final decisions have been made 2010-11 23 as to which Ministers will attend the opening ceremony. Any Minister that does attend the opening ceremony on Iron and Steel behalf of Government will do so in an official capacity. The Government are committed to publishing information about hospitality received by Ministers Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales from third parties in a ministerial capacity, valued at what recent discussions she has had with the First over £140. For the Department for Culture, Media and Minister of the Welsh Government on the steel industry Sport this information is published on a quarterly basis in Wales; and if she will make a statement. [88108] on the Department’s transparency website: Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my http://www.transparency.culture.gov.uk/ right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham Tourism (Mrs Gillan), and I have regular discussions with the First Minister on a range of issues affecting Wales. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for My right hon. Friend met with representatives from Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will provide the steel industry in Wales with the Secretary of State funding for an additional traditional pier in Redcar and for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member Cleveland for the purpose of promoting tourism. for Twickenham (Vince Cable), in March and held a [88846] meeting of her Business Advisory Group at the Tata Plant in Port Talbot in October, and she is due to meet John Penrose: No. The development of new piers is a with Tata again later this month. We continue to work matter for local businesses, working with local authorities closely with industry leaders in Wales to better understand and other partners as necessary. The Government do the specific issues affecting the sector and to help ensure not provide funds specifically for this purpose. the long-term future of the steel industry in Wales.

Mass Media WALES Dr Francis: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Departmental Manpower what recent discussions she has had with the First Minister of the Welsh Government on the future of the Mr Hain: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how media in Wales; and if she will make a statement. many staff in her private office have left her Department [88107] 383W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 384W

Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my Remploy: Social Enterprises right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), has regular meetings with the First Minister Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work to discuss a range of matters affecting Wales media and Pensions (1) what consideration he has given to issues. enabling individual Remploy factories to establish their I welcome the S4C and BBC Trust’s announcement own bank account for the purposes of trading as social on 25 October 2011, which confirmed their agreement enterprises; and if he will make a statement; [89095] on the details of the partnership announced in the (2) what assessment he has made of the potential spending review and licence fee settlement. I would like development of a social enterprise model for Remploy to congratulate both parties for agreeing the details that factories; and if he will make a statement; [89097] have protected the editorial and managerial independence of S4C, while safeguarding the accountability of the (3) what steps he has taken to assist Remploy factories BBC Trust for the licence fee. to identify social enterprise opportunities; and if he will make a statement. [89099] The Government are also keen to ensure that the public have access to localised media, which is why we announced on 13 December that Cardiff and Swansea Chris Grayling: The Government consultation on the will be among the first 20 UK cities to trial the Local recommendations of the Sayce report, which included TV model, with Bangor and Mold included in a second recommendations on the future strategy for Remploy, tranche. closed on 17 October 2011. Over 1,400 responses were received and it is taking time to analyse the consultation All media platforms in Wales, be it newspapers, radio, responses in detail and carefully consider the implications broadcasting or internet based, are important, which is for future policy. During its consultation period a range why we are also undertaking a wide-scale review of the of work is being done to consider the future for Remploy. regulatory framework supporting the UK communications We will publish a summary of responses received and a sector. The review will focus on establishing ways in statement on future policy as soon as practicably possible. which Government can drive growth and innovation in Until a decision is made, consideration will not been the sector by stripping away unnecessary red tape and given to the detail of any arrangements that may need removing barriers to growth. to be made, for example enabling factories to establish their own bank accounts for the purpose of trading. Prior to the consultation consideration has been given WORK AND PENSIONS to The Social Enterprise Model.

Contracts: General Practitioners Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what processes he expects Remploy Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work factories to follow in employing additional staff to and Pensions what discussions he has had with the fulfil a new contract; and if he will make a statement. British Medical Association on the devolution of GP [89098] work contracts to each of the devolved Administrations. [89016] Maria Miller: To secure additional staff to fulfil a Chris Grayling: There have been no discussions between new contract, Remploy are required to request approval, DWP and the British Medical Association on the devolution from the Department for Work and Pensions to recruit of GP work contracts to each of the devolved externally. This is in line with the cross-Government Administrations. external recruitment freeze arrangements. In considering the request, the Department for Work Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions considers the merits of the case for recruitment and Pensions what plans he has for the devolution of including whether failure to recruit would seriously GP work contracts to each of the devolved Administrations. affect Remploy’s customer service, performance or [89017] reputation. All requests are considered on the merit of each case. Chris Grayling: DWP has no plans in relation to the devolution of GP work contracts to each of the devolved Administrations. Social Security Benefits: Cardiff

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what assessment he has made of Work and Pensions how many and what proportion of the current system of negotiating GP work contracts. recipients of (a) disability living allowance, (b) employment [89018] and support allowance and (c) incapacity benefit in Cardiff West constituency whose claims have been refused Chris Grayling: DWP has not made any assessment have taken their case to tribunal since January 2011. of the current system of negotiating GP work contracts. [88808] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what discussions he has had with Maria Miller: We are unable to provide information the devolved Administrations on GP work contracts. of recipients on disability living allowance (DLA) in [89019] Cardiff West constituency whose claims have been refused and taken their case to tribunal. This is because we do Chris Grayling: DWP has not had any discussions not routinely report this level of detail and to obtain with the devolved Administrations on GP work contracts. this would be at disproportionate cost to the Department. 385W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 386W

Data on outcomes of assessments for employment Grant Shapps: Further to my answer to the hon. and support allowance (ESA) is not available for the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), today Cardiff West parliamentary constituency. However data (PQ 73962), and my answer to my hon. Friend today is available for the Cardiff unitary authority area. Between (PQ 76266), I intend to develop guidance to local authorities January 2011 and May 2011 (the latest data available) on the support they should be giving vulnerable people there were approximately 6,100 people from the Cardiff who are in council tax arrears—something which the unitary authority area who underwent an initial work last Administration failed to deliver. capability assessment (WCA) for ESA. Of these Clearly, councils have an obligation to their local approximately 3,800, or 62%, were assessed as being fit residents to collect council tax, as every penny of uncollected for work and therefore not eligible for ESA. council tax effectively increases the tax burden on the The equivalent information for incapacity benefit law-abiding local residents who do pay their bills on (IB) is not available since IB was replaced by ESA in time. Yet councils equally need to show compassion October 2008 and any new claims received after this towards the vulnerable and recognise individual cases date were directed to claim ESA instead. of hardship. Data on the assessment outcomes of the incapacity The use of bailiffs should also be a last resort, they benefits reassessment programme is not available. Due should not be commissioned disproportionately and to the overall length of the incapacity benefits reassessment councils should take direct responsibility for ensuring process, information on the process including the final they abide by acceptable practices. outcomes is not yet available. Individual level data are I will now review this matter and report back to the being collected and the Department plans to publish House in due course. data on the outcomes of the reassessment process once it has been fully quality assured. Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS), Communities and Local Government what guidance who administer social security appeals do not hold any his Department provides to local authorities on the data specific to the Cardiff West constituency, but the recovery of council tax arrears. [76266] majority of DLA, ESA and IB appeals made by people in the Cardiff West constituency are heard in the hearing Grant Shapps: In 1993, when council tax was being venue in Cardiff, although this venue also hears appeals introduced, the Department of the Environment published from other nearby locations. Council Tax Practice Note Number 9 on recovery and The following table shows the number of appeals enforcement, this is primarily technical guidance on received in the Cardiff Tribunal venue for DLA, ESA, prevailing legislation. It recommended that councils ESA (IB Reassessment) and IB from January 2011 to draw up a code of practice on the use of bailiffs. I am October 2011. The tribunal does not record the issue placing a copy in the Library of the House, as the under appeal and, therefore, cannot isolate data relating document is not available online. to appeals on the basis of a claim for benefit having From time to time, my Department also publishes been refused. Council Tax Information Letters, providing technical Note that the figures in the following table cannot be updates relating to the administration of council tax. used in combination with the figures on ESA provided The last letter which touched on these issues was in above, since they relate to a different time period and do 2009. These letters are available at: not cover claims from the same geographical area. http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ localgovernmentfinance/counciltax/informationletters/ Number of cases received in In 2004, the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister HMCTS Cardiff venue January published “Council Tax Collection Good Practice Report”, Appeal type 2011 to October 2011 an operational research report aiming to collate sources DLA 1,400 and information on good practice for activities that ESA 4,100 contribute to council tax collection. This can be found ESA (IB Reassessment) 120 online at: IB 700 http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20081205143343/ http://www.local.odpm.gov.uk/finance/ctax/goodprac.pdf All appeals 7,700 Notes: I would add that in June 2009, the Citizens Advice 1. The Department regularly publishes data on ESA and WCA the Bureau and the Local Government Association published latest publication can be found on the departmental website, here: a “Collection of council tax arrears good practice protocol”. http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/index.php?page=esa_wca http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/pdf-ct-protocol.pdf 2. Data on ESA assessments and outcomes are taken from administrative data held by the Department for Work and Pensions and assessment In July 2009, the last Administration published “A data provided by Atos Healthcare. Better deal for Consumers: Delivering Real Help now 3. Appeals data are taken from HMCTS management information. and Change for the Future” (Cm 7669). It stated: 4. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100 and percentages to the nearest percentage point. “We are considering the need to produce a new guidance document as an agreed statement of good collection practice for councils.” COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT No such guidance was issued. Council Tax: Arrears Government Procurement Card Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to take to support vulnerable people who are in Communities and Local Government if he will list each council tax arrears. [78399] spending transaction on a Government Procurement 387W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 388W

Card made by officials in his Department since April In addition, the Ministerial Working Group on 2006; and if he will provide for each transaction the Homelessness’ first report4 includes a commitment to (a) amount, (b) supplier and (c) date. [76267] publish a more comprehensive expectations and guidance for prisons and for probation trusts on how to assist Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for offenders to access stable housing. It also highlights the Communities and Local Government if he will publish role of specialist services in treating homeless people, details of expenditure below £500 by his Department including those with a dual diagnosis of co-existing on Government Procurement Cards. [78213] mental health problems and encouraging closer working between criminal justice agencies and homelessness Robert Neill: The details of every individual Government organisations. Procurement Card transaction from April 2006 until You may be aware that I recently announced a further October 2011 have been deposited in the Library of the £20 million funding for local authorities to prevent House. These include the (a) amount, (b) supplier, (c) single homelessness and help them ensure that nobody date and (d) merchant category. is turned away without clear and useful advice when they are most in need. This is on top of the existing ‘Merchant category’ is a broad description employed £400 million Government investment to prevent by the card issuing company to designate the business homelessness over the next four years and £12.25 million where the card was used not the type of product purchased. provided to Crisis to help single homeless people access These spending data include updated figures for 2006-07 stable accommodation in the private rented sector, with and 2007-08 from those given in an earlier reply, which ex-offenders a priority group. understated the total level of spend due to a coding discrepancy in the data extraction. The Department for Communities and Local Government (DCLG) recognises the significant costs to My Department has put a series of checks and balances public services that results from homelessness and rough to protect taxpayers’ money, following the recommendations sleeping. For example, research commissioned by DCLG made by Sir Philip Green’s report into Government estimated that without housing support services, offenders, efficiency. Steps include: people at risk of offending and mentally disordered Routinely publishing all spending over £500 each month, as offenders would cost an additional £1,459 per household part our transparency agenda. unit per annum from experiencing homelessness5.We Cutting the number of card holders from 210 in May 2010 to have secured £6.5 billion investment for Supporting just 33 in October 2011. People over the four years of the spending review which Taking steps to cancel the cash withdrawal facility on the card will protect the preventative services that help the most (apart from two business continuity users). vulnerable live independently and retain their tenancies. Introducing new internal checks and audit trails, from pre-approvals DCLG has not made any estimate on the cost to the to requiring post-transaction reporting. public purse of homelessness and housing instability As a result of these changes, monthly expenditure on arising from former prisoners with mental health problems these cards has reduced by three-quarters, from an in 2010-11 or likely cost in 2011-12. average of £27,000 a month over the last two years, to 1 Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and an average of just £6,400 a month. I would encourage Sentencing of Offenders, 2010 local authority users of the cards to take similar steps to 2 Drug Strategy 2010, Reducing demand, restricting supply, building help generate savings for their taxpayers. recovery: supporting people to live a drug-free life 3 I also refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 13 October No Health Without Mental Health, 2011 2011, Official Report, columns 483-84W,which provides 4 Vision to end Rough Sleeping; No Second Night Out all the transaction data from April 2004 to April 2006 5 DCLG (2009) Research into the financial benefits of the Supporting under the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister. People programme, 2009 Population Homelessness: Offenders Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance is Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for offered by his Department to local authorities on estimating Communities and Local Government (1) what steps he their population growth. [89022] is taking to reduce levels of (a) homelessness and (b) housing instability among former prisoners with mental Robert Neill: No such guidance is given. Population health problems; [88082] statistics are published by the Office for National Statistics. (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of homelessness and housing instability arising from former prisoners with mental health problems TREASURY in 2010-11; and what estimate he has made of the likely cost in 2012-13. [88543] Civil Servants: Pensions

Grant Shapps: This Government are committed to John McDonnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer tackling homelessness and has established a ministerial with reference to page 17, Box 3.B case study 1 of Public working group to tackle the complex underlying problems, service pensions: good pensions that last, Cm 8214, including the link between homelessness, offending and what the old scheme calculation in this example would mental health. We have already included clear statements be using the (a) Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme on homelessness in the Offender Rehabilitation Green classic scheme, (b) PCSPS premium scheme and (c) Paper1 and the Drugs2 and Mental Health Strategies3. NUVOS Scheme. [83237] 389W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 390W

Danny Alexander [holding answer 25 November 2011]: (4) how much was claimed in spouse or civil partner On 2 November 2011, the Government published ‘Public exemption on gifts paid over a lifetime in each of the service pensions: good pensions that last’, Cm8214, last five years; [89110] which includes several case studies that provide illustrative (5) how much was paid in capital transfer tax in each examples of the impact of the Government’s preferred year between 1982 and 1986. [89111] pension scheme design. These case studies were prepared for HMT Treasury by Hyman Robertson LLP using IFS data and HM Treasury assumptions. Mr Gauke: Receipts of inheritance tax since 1998 are HM Treasury has not made an assessment of what published in the Government Expenditure and Revenue the old scheme calculation would be in the example of Scotland publications published on the Scottish Case Study 1 using the PCSPS premium scheme or the Government’s website: NUVOS scheme. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/ Economy/GERS/Publications Members: Correspondence The amounts of assets which are relieved from inheritance tax due to business property relief for estates over the Mr Winnick: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer inheritance tax threshold for 2004-05 to 2008-09 are if he will arrange for the hon. Member for Walsall published in National Statistics table 12.2 available North to receive a reply to his letter of 22 November from the HMRC website at: 2011 to the Child Benefit Office about a constituent. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/inheritance_tax/table12-2.xls [87922] Based on this table the amount of assets relieved since 1986-87 are given in the following table. Mr Gauke: Child Benefit Office replied to a letter from the hon. Member dated 22 November 2011 on Relief set against assets 16 December 2011. (£ million) Stamp Duty Land Tax: Tax Avoidance 1986-87 28 1987-88 38 Adam Afriyie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 1988-89 37 what steps his Department is taking to reduce avoidance 1989-90 45 of stamp duty land tax. [89003] 1990-91 35 1991-92 40 Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will 1992-93 96 challenge all use of stamp duty land tax (SDLT) avoidance 1993-94 97 schemes, through the courts if necessary. All users of 1994-95 113 these schemes can expect to pay the full amount of 1995-96 137 SDLT due, plus interest, in due course. 1996-97 150 HMRC has analysed a wide range of avoidance 1997-98 129 schemes. This analysis has not shown that the schemes 1998-99 177 are effective in reducing SDLT liability, either because 1999-2000 353 they reflect an incorrect understanding of the law or 2000-01 183 because they are caught by targeted anti-avoidance 2001-02 240 rules.. 2002-03 332 HMRC will open an inquiry into an SDLT return in 2003-04 227 all cases where use of such a scheme is notified under 2004-05 252 the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes (DOTAS) rules. 2005-06 295 HMRC also compares transactions reported to the 2006-07 341 Land Registry against SDLT returns received. Where 2007-08 460 there is a discrepancy, HMRC will open an enquiry into 2008-09 409 the return, or issue an assessment of the SDLT due if no return has been received. In addition, an estimate of the cost of business Recent Finance Acts have included a number of property relief is published by HMRC in Table 1.5 measures to put beyond doubt that particular avoidance Main Tax Expenditures and Structural Reliefs available schemes are ineffective. The draft 2012 Finance Bill, from the HMRC website at: published on 6 December 2011, includes a measure to http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_expenditures/table1-5.xls expand the scope of the DOTAS rules. An estimate of the cost of the exemption for capital Taxation: Inheritance Tax and Capital Gains Tax gains tax accrued but unrealised at death is published by HMRC in Table 1.5 Main Tax Expenditures and Structural Reliefs available from the HMRC website at: John Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) how much revenue has been raised in inheritance tax http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_expenditures/table1-5.xls from Scottish estates in each year since 1998; [89104] Estimates of the historical costs of this relief are not (2) how much has been claimed in business relief available. from inheritance tax in each year since 1986; [89105] The information on spouse or civil partner relief on (3) how much was claimed in forgiveness of capital lifetime gifts is not available as these gifts do not need to gains tax at death in each of the last five years; [89109] be recorded on the inheritance tax return. 391W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 392W

Receipts from capital transfer tax for the period 1982 power would be available for use in cases including to 1986 are published in archived Table 1.2 Annual those involving national security and extremism. Receipts of former Inland Revenue Taxes available from the HMRC website at: Co-operatives http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tax_receipts/1_2_v2_dec05.xls Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Taxation: Switzerland Home Department what steps (a) her Department and (b) those bodies for which her Department is responsible Owen Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer are taking to mark UN Year of the Co-operative 2012; what assessment his Department has made of the and if she will make a statement. [88595] likelihood of the yield from the UK-Switzerland tax agreement of 24 August 2011 being at the upper end of Damian Green: Departments will work closely with the estimated range. [88847] Cabinet Office, the Mutuals Taskforce and with Co-operatives UK to develop and take full advantage Mr Gauke: The current forecast for the yield from the of opportunities to celebrate the achievements of UK-Switzerland tax agreement is expected to be in the co-operative organisations during the United Nations range £4 billion to £7 billion. International Year of Co-operatives. A range has been used in estimating the expected The Mutuals Taskforce has recently indicated it will revenue to reflect the degree of uncertainty around the play a co-ordinating role for Departments to support estimates. No estimate has been made within HMRC as the International Yearof Co-operatives, with Co-operatives to where within the range we would expect the actual UK leading the Taskforce’s work in this area. yield to lie. Departmental Audit However, the Swiss banks will make an upfront payment of CHF 500 million at the outset of the arrangement, which supports the expectation that the revenue generated Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the from the agreement will be significant. Home Department what criteria (a) her Department and (b) its public bodies use when deciding whether and when to hold an internal audit; and if she will make a statement. [85640] HOME DEPARTMENT Damian Green: The Home Office criteria for deciding Borders: Personal Records on which internal audits to conduct are in line with Government Internal Audit Standards. These state that Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Chief Internal Auditor must establish risk based Home Department what recent discussions officials in plans. Development of these risk-based plans takes her Department have had with the Royal Yachting account of the Home Office corporate risk profile, Association on the e-Borders programme. [88930] assurance framework and forward business plans. They also reflect input from the Accounting Officer, Audit Damian Green: Officials from the UK Border Agency and Risk Assurance Committee members, Management last met with the Royal Yachting Association on Board members and previous audit activity and findings. 2 December 2011, to discuss and share progress on the A number of lower level reviews are also considered to e-Borders programme. ensure the completeness of the overall annual opinion. The UK Border Agency is working closely with the Delivery is based on audit resource approved by the maritime community to strengthen the maritime border Accounting Officer and Audit and Risk Assurance by building a way to electronically receive passenger Committee. Internal audit work is based upon a cyclical and crew data on international journeys. This will maximise planning horizon which can be amended if the risk the UK Border Agency’s intake of intelligence, optimise profile changes in year. The plan, and individual reviews the use of resources and ensure the UK Border Agency contained within it, require approval from the Accounting is able to make effective, high value interventions on Officer and Audit and Risk Assurance Committee and those who would seek to do harm to the UK. are subject to quarterly review to ensure the continued relevance of the plan and best use of resources. Individual British Nationality reviews are prioritised on criticality to the Accounting Officer and any changes to the plan are agreed by the Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chief Internal Auditor, the Accounting Officer and Home Department if she will bring forward legislative Chair of the Audit and Risk Assurance Committee. A proposals to revoke the British citizenship of naturalised small number of audit days are allocated for consultancy, British citizens convicted of (a) treason and (b) acts of advice and contingency work. terrorism. [88955] Detention Centres: Females Damian Green: There is already provision in the British Nationality Act 1981 (section 40 as amended) to Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the deprive British citizens of their citizenship where the Home Department how many women detained for Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right immigration purposes were subsequently (a) deported hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), is and (b) released in the last six months of 2011; and satisfied that to do so is conducive to the public good. how many such women had been detained for more The Act was amended in 2006 and statements were than (i) three months, (ii) six months, (iii) one year and made to Parliament at the time explaining that the (iv) two years. [88957] 393W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 394W

Damian Green: The following table shows the latest immigration removal centres or short term holding published figures on the number of women leaving facilities in Q3 2011, by reason and length of detention. detention, held solely under Immigration Act powers in

Females leaving detention by reason and length of detention, Q3 2011 Total female Removed Granted leave to Granted temporary detainees from the UK enter/remain admission/release Bailed Other

Total females 1,123 714 8 322 67 12

Length of detention Less than 1,055 673 8 307 56 11 3 months 3 months to less 47 33 0 10 4 0 than 6 months 6 months to less 18 6 0 5 6 1 than 12 months 12 months to less 11 0 0 0 0 than 24 months 24 months or 21 0 0 1 0 more Notes: 1. Data are provisional. 2. All people held are detained in the United Kingdom solely under Immigration Act powers and exclude those in police cells, Prison Service establishments, short-term holding rooms at ports and airports (for less than 24 hours), and those recorded as detained under both criminal and immigration powers and their dependants. 3. Figures include dependants. 4. Relates to most recent period of sole detention. The period of detention starts when a person first enters the UK Border Agency estate. If the person is then moved from a removal centre to a police cell or Prison Service establishment, this period of stay will be included if the detention is solely under Immigration Act powers.

The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 12 January 2012]: statistics on the number of women leaving detention, This recommendation is being taken forward through solely under Immigration Act powers. Q4 2011 detention the development of the Access to Elected Office for figures will be published on 23 February 2012 and will Disabled People Strategy. Last year, the Government be available from the Library of the House and from held a public consultation which sought views on a the Home Office Science, research and statistics webpages range of policy proposals designed to provide additional at: support for disabled candidates applying for elected http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- office to help them overcome disability related barriers. statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ The Government published their response in September Detention is a necessary part of the process to remove 2011. Following the results of that consultation we are some individuals with no right to be in the UK. We now working with political, disability and other stakeholders always seek to remove those with no right to be here as to take forward five proposals. These are: (i) setting up a quickly as possible but if detainees give false or incomplete dedicated fund to help individual candidates with disability information or submits spurious last minute appeals, related costs; (ii) new training and development then in such cases, it can delay their return and extend opportunities; (iii) Raising awareness; (iv) guidance for their detention. political parties on fulfilling their legal obligations under the Equality Act; and (v) working with political parties Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the to share and promote good practice on disability support. Home Department when gender equality impact assessments for all immigration removal centres and Drugs: Law and Order short-term holding facilities will be completed. [88956] Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: Gender equality impact assessments Home Department what discussions officials in her for immigration removal centres and short-term holding Department have had with law enforcement agencies in facilities where women are held will be completed by other countries on co-operation on drug profiling. summer 2012. [88410]

Disability: Candidates James Brokenshire: Home Office officials have dialogue with officials and law enforcement agencies in other Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for the countries where that facilitates closer co-operation in Home Department what assessment she has made of countering narcotics, which may include drugs profiling. progress in establishing a Democracy Diversity Fund to Within the EU, this co-operation is facilitated by a Joint support disabled people who are parliamentary candidates Action (a form of EU legislative instrument) concerning as recommended in the Final Report of the Speaker’s the exchange of information on the chemical profiling Conference on Parliamentary Representation; and if of drugs, in order to facilitate improved co-operation she will make a statement. [89222] between member states in combating illicit drug trafficking. 395W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 396W

Entry Clearances: China forensics including the Republic of Ireland, Australia, USA, European countries through the ENFSI Board as David T. C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for well as the devolved Administrations in Scotland and the Home Department how many applications for Northern Ireland. tourist visas by Chinese nationals were (a) granted and (b) refused in the last year for which figures are Heroin available. [89039] Gordon Birtwistle: To ask the Secretary of State for Damian Green: The table sets out the number of the Home Department how many doctors have a applications for tourist visas made by Chinese nationals licence from her Department to prescribe heroin for the that have been issued and refused from 1 October 2010 treatment of drug addiction. [88128] to 30 September 2011. We are unable to provide information for a period James Brokenshire [holding answer 10 January 2012]: that goes beyond the period covered by our published The Home Office does not licence the prescription of statistics. This information presents the latest statistics heroin for the treatment of addiction. Licenses to prescribe available on visa decisions. diamorphine for the treatment of addiction are issued by the Home Office; a total of 18 licences were issued to Nationality: Chinese individual doctors in 2011. Number

Issued 65,885 Immigration Controls Refused 4,598 Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for the Forensic Science: Law and Order Home Department (1) how many staff not cleared to SC level and deployed to work on border controls had access to the Warning Index on 30 November 2011; Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the [86090] Home Department what discussions officials in her Department have had with law enforcement agencies in (2) how many non-UK Border Agency employees other countries on co-operation on forensic science. who were re-deployed to cover the work of staff [88411] involved in industrial action on 29 and 30 November 2011 were not cleared to SC level; how many of these James Brokenshire: Home Office officials have regular had applied for SC level clearance in advance of the contact and collaboration with the following groups/ training; and how many of these applications were countries, primarily in relation to fingerprint research processed. [86091] and development but also on other areas of forensic science: Damian Green [holding answer 13 December 2011]: Germany—Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) All staff who were trained and deployed to ports and airports during the period of industrial action 29 and Italy—Carabinieri 30 November 2011 carried the appropriate level of Canada—Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) security clearance that allowed them to operate safe and Israel—Israeli National Police Force effective border checks. SC level is required only where USA—Department of Homeland Security, Secret Service, National staff need to have regular access to ‘Secret’ and ‘Top Institute of Justice Secret’ assets. An appropriate security regime was in Netherlands—Netherlands Forensic Institute place on 30 November 2011, taking into account the Australia—Australian Federal Police. risks being managed in ensuring border security on the Malaysian officials have made a VIP visit to the day. Home Office Centre for Applied Science and Technology but this has not yet led to any further collaboration. Immigration: Employment Home Office officials also have contact with law enforcement agencies through a number of groups such Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the as International Fingerprint Research Group (IFRG), Home Department what plans she has to revise European Network of Forensic Science Institutes (ENFSI), documents sent to people granted leave to remain to Facial Identification Scientific Working Group (FISWG) place more emphasis on employment opportunities. and Scientific Working Group for Imaging Technology [89196] (SWGIT). Damian Green: There are no plans to revise these Home Office have met representatives of the Abu documents. The documents are specific in advising an Dhabi police to discuss the delivery of an existing FSS individual about their conditions of leave in terms of contract following the Government decision to wind employment. down the Forensic Science Service. Home Office officials have additionally been involved Olympic Games 2012 : Security in a series of discussions with the EU institutions and key EU policing agencies on a vision of future forensic Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the science and on the development of forensic science Home Department how many staff will be employed on infrastructures in Europe. security for the duration of the London 2012 Olympic Although not a Home Office official, the Forensic Games from (a) private security contractors, (b) the Science Regulator has liaised with organisations from a Metropolitan police, (c) other police forces and (d) the number of countries in developing quality standards in armed services. [88882] 397W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 398W

James Brokenshire: Up to 23,700 personnel will be Terrorism deployed on venue security roles during the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. The majority Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the will be private security staff provided by G4S. These Home Department what assessment she has made of contractors will be supported by military personnel and the role of Dart-MS technology in terrorism volunteers recruited by the London 2012 Organising prevention and investigation. [88414] Committee (LOCOG). Together, they will help protect more than 100 competition and non-competition venues James Brokenshire: There has been some work across the United Kingdom. All roles will be performed undertaken within Government laboratories into the by people who are appropriately trained and qualified. potential of the Direct Analysis in Real Time Mass It is estimated that around 12,000 police officers will Spectrometry (DART-MS) technique in support of forensic be deployed on Games-specific duties across the UK on work, such as the rapid identification of explosives. peak days, including up to 9,000 in London alone. Initial studies were undertaken in 2005 but the technique These will be a mixture of local officers and officers was not sufficiently advanced at that stage. Further supplied through mutual aid, though the exact composition work (funded by the Home Office) is planned for 2012 for each local area is still to be determined. into DART-MS and a number of related direct analysis In total, up to 13,500 armed forces personnel will be techniques. This would give a detailed assessment of the deployed on Games security duties. This includes military value of the technique for counter-terrorism work. support to the LOCOG venue security operation: 3,500 personnel throughout the Games period, rising to 7,500 personnel during the Olympic Games. Military personnel will also provide a range of specialist and other support WOMEN AND EQUALITIES to the police, and a reserve force in case of emergency.

Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the Child Care Home Department what requirements have been placed on private security companies that have won contracts 6. Thomas Docherty: To ask the Minister for Women to provide security at the London 2012 Olympic Games and Equalities what assessment she has made of the to recruit staff from (a) Newham and (b) other Olympic effect of Government policies on access to child care boroughs in London. [88883] for women. [88216]

James Brokenshire: The London 2012 Organising Maria Miller: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Committee for the Olympic and Paralympic Games the Department for Work and Pensions. (LOCOG) appointed G4S as its Official Security Services Providing help with the costs of formal child care, Provider in March 2011. As with all its main contractors, and improving access, continues to be at the forefront of LOCOG’s Employment and Skills Charter formed a our policies to help children get the best start in life and central part of the procurement process. This included to ensure that parents can balance work and family its target to recruit 15-20% of its Games work force commitments. from residents of the six host boroughs. The Government spend £2 billion on formal child LOCOG are now working with G4S on how to care support within the current tax credit and benefit contribute to this target. As a result, G4S is running systems and it has committed an additional £300 million daily recruitment events in Newham, at West Ham under universal credit. football club. Another centre will open in Stratford in the coming weeks. A series of recruitment events from LOCOG contractors are taking place across the host Domestic Violence boroughs with partners such as the job brokerages, Jobcentre Plus, FE colleges and community groups 7. Sarah Newton: To ask the Minister for Women and such as The East London Communities Organisation Equalities what recent representations she has received (TELCO). Already more than 70 such events have taken on male victims of domestic violence. [88217] place, with more to follow. Six months before the Games, LOCOG is achieving Lynne Featherstone: I met with my hon. Friend and its overall target—with 20.4% of its work force resident the charity Esteem, which provides services to male in the host boroughs. victims of domestic violence in Cornwall, in October last year. I will be visiting the Men’s Advice Line Police: Accountability shortly. In December, I announced funding of £225,000 to Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the support services focusing on male victims of domestic Home Department what steps she plans to take to and sexual violence over two years. This is in addition ensure awareness of the method of election for police to the funding provided to the helplines: Men’s Advice commissioners. [87388] Line and Broken Rainbow. Nick Herbert: The Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 gives the Electoral Commission Flexible Working a statutory duty to raise awareness of these elections, including how to vote in them, as it currently does for 8. Alun Cairns: To ask the Minister for Women and all UK elections. The Government are working closely Equalities what steps she is taking to encourage flexible with the Commission on this. work arrangements and home working. [88218] 399W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 400W

Mrs May: We have consulted on proposals to extend Speed Limits the right to request flexible working to all employees, which could include working from home. We will respond 17. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for to that consultation in due course. Transport what representations her Department has Jobcentre Plus also support employers in considering received on the consultation on increasing motorway how jobs can be advertised on a flexible basis and we speed limits. [88239] are working with businesses to identify what more can be done on a voluntary basis to encourage flexible Mike Penning: The Department has received several working opportunities. hundred items of correspondence about changing motorway speed limits during the last three months. Business Enterprise The Government announced in October that they intended to consult about increasing the national motorway 9. Fiona Bruce: To ask the Minister for Women and speed limit for England and Wales. The consultation is Equalities what steps she is taking to encourage the planned to start during the next few months. participation of women in business enterprise. [88219]

Mrs May: It is vital that women are able to fully use Crossrail their skills in order to support economic growth. That is why we are providing up to £2 million over three years in order to support women setting up or growing their 18. Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State business in rural areas. The Government are also recruiting for Transport what recent representations she has and training 5,000 mentors to support women setting received on the financing of the Crossrail project; and up or growing their business. The funding will ensure if she will make a statement. [88240] that training and support for both mentor and mentee reflect the specific needs of women. Mrs Villiers: Ministers regularly discuss a variety of Crossrail matters, including financing, with senior Apprentices management at Crossrail Ltd and with the project’s co-sponsor, the Mayor of London. The funding package for Crossrail was agreed as part of the spending review, Robert Halfon: To ask the Minister for Women and and we expect the project to cost no more than Equalities how many apprentices are working in the £14.5 billion. Government Equalities Office. [88220]

Lynne Featherstone: As of 1 April 2011, the Government Crossrail Line: Contracts Equalities Office has been part of the Home Office. The Department takes seriously the need to create opportunities for apprenticeships. However, due to the recruitment Margaret Beckett: To ask the Secretary of State for freeze in the civil service since May 2010, there has been Transport what account her Department took of the limited opportunity to employ apprentices. One member Government’s review of procurement in preparing the of staff has been directly recruited as an apprentice to tender for the Crossrail scheme. [88355] the Home Office before the freeze took effect, and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission has employed Mrs Villiers [holding answer 10 January 2012]: Crossrail three apprentices. We will look to introduce schemes Ltd is delivering the procurement of Crossrail rolling when the freeze ends. stock and depot on behalf of Rail for London—the future operator of Crossrail services. The co-sponsors of the project, Transport for London and the Department for Transport, have agreed that any relevant conclusions TRANSPORT of the Government’s review of public procurement will be taken into account in the tender process. As announced High Speed 2 in August 2011, we expect the tender documents to be released early this year. 16. Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether she plans to revise the timetable Insurance Companies for the publication of the route for High Speed 2 between Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield and Leeds. [88237] Karl McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether Ministers in her Department have Justine Greening: HS2 Ltd will be providing me with had recent meetings with (a) members of the board advice on route options for Phase 2 of HS2 in March and (b) senior management at (i) Broker Direct and 2012. We will then undertake a process of engagement (ii) Zurich UK. [89112] to inform the selection of a preferred route. The Department’s business plan foresees a decision being Norman Baker: Neither the Secretary of State for made by Ministers on the preferred route by December Transport, the right hon. Member for Putney (Justine 2014, following consultation. However, we will keep this Greening), nor any other Ministers in the Department timetable under review with a view to moving as fast as have had any recent meetings with members of the practicable to ensure we deliver the benefits of the Y board and/or senior management at Broker Direct or network. Zurich UK. 401W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 402W

Railway Stations: Manpower (a) We are committed to improving access to rail stations and we have therefore continued the previous Government’s Access for All programme, which will deliver accessible routes to 153 Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for stations before 2015. £7 million a year is available for smaller Transport pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2011, access enhancements and a new Mid-Tier programme worth Official Report, column 422W, on railway stations: £37.5 million was recently introduced. manpower, what discussions (a) she, (b) her predecessor (b) All three stations in Coventry (Canley, Coventry and Tile and (c) her officials have had with the Chair of the Rail Hill) have step-free access. Value for Money Study on the calculations used to reach the recommendations in the report of the Rail Stratford International Station Value for Money Study on (i) ticket office opening hours, (ii) ticket office staffing and (iii) the Ticketing Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for and Settlement Agreement. [88127] Transport what works are required to enable Stratford International Station to receive international trains; Mrs Villiers [holding answer 10 January 2012]: Ministers and what the cost is of such works. [88186] and officials met with Sir Roy McNulty and his team regularly over the course of the Rail Value for Money Mrs Villiers [holding answer 10 January 2012]: The Study to discuss a wide range of issues. outer two platforms of Stratford International Station are already designed to take international trains. The conclusions of the independent study, together with the detailed supporting material, can be found on The main work required to commence an international the websites of the Department and the Office of Rail service would be the provision of border control and Regulation. security facilities, along with ticket office fit-out and gate lines for the train operator and associated The Department is now considering the findings of telecommunications and IT. the study and will shortly be publishing a Command Paper setting out a strategy for improving the efficiency Although no detailed costings have been undertaken, and performance of the railway network. it is estimated that the total value of work should not exceed £2 million. Railways: Disability

Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for JUSTICE Transport what steps she is taking to improve disabled Approved Premises: Females access at railway stations. [88230] Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: The Access for All programme will Justice how many probation trusts have approved premises deliver accessible routes to 153 stations before 2015 and for female offenders. [89197] a further £7 million a year is available to train operators to use for smaller access enhancements. We have also Mr Blunt: Six probation trust areas have approved recently introduced a new Mid-Tier programme worth premises for female offenders. Three are operated by the £37.5 million to fund projects needing up to £1 million trusts themselves and three by independent bodies. of Government support. Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Regulations 1992 Transport what discussions she has had with the Association of Train Operating Companies on eligibility for disabled Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for persons railcards following changes to disability living Justice what guidance he has provided to (a) local allowance. [88881] authorities and (b) magistrates’ courts on assessing costs reasonably incurred under the Council Tax Norman Baker: The Department for Work and Pensions (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992; (DWP) review of social security benefits is still ongoing, whether local authorities are permitted to accrue revenue and is expected to be completed in 2012. DWP will be from such costs; and if he will make a statement. [73962] introducing personal independence payments (PIP) to replace disability living allowance (DLA) in 2013. Once Grant Shapps: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the new eligibility criteria have been confirmed, ATOC the Department for Communities and Local Government. will work with Disability Rights UK, the Department The Ministry of Justice and the Department for for Transport and other key stakeholders to evaluate Communities and Local Government have issued no the required revisions to the Disabled Person’s Railcard guidance to (a) local authorities and (b) magistrates eligibility criteria. Implementation will be timed to coincide courts on assessing costs reasonably incurred under the with the introduction of PIP. Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992. What is reasonable in a particular case is a matter Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for the magistrates court to determine following submissions for Transport what steps she plans to take to increase by the billing authority. access to train services for disabled people (a) nationally Schedule 5 to the Regulations sets out the sums an and (b) in Coventry. [88898] authority may charge where goods are seized to satisfy a council tax liability order. An authority may only charge Norman Baker: The information is as follows. the amounts stated in that Schedule, which may be a 403W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 404W fixed amount or be limited to the reasonable costs and Mr Djanogly: The Government do not hold data on fees incurred, depending upon the matter in relation to the number or detail of such claims, and whether they which costs are incurred. progress to court or settle. If a taxpayer believes charges made under Schedule 5 are incorrect, he should, in the first instance, contact the local authority or the Local Government Ombudsman. Legal Opinion There may also be scope for the district auditor to consider whether the local authority has proper Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice arrangements in place to review, approve and pay bailiff how many defendants dismissed their legal teams fees, if complaints are brought to its attention. during a trial in the Crown court in each year from I also note the 1993 Department of the Environment 2000 to 2011. [89023] Council Tax Practice Note 9 states that: “while it is likely that authorities will have discussed a scale of fees Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice holds statistical with the Clerk to Justices it should be recognised that the Court information in relation to the status and changes to the may wish to be satisfied that the amount claimed by way of costs legal representation of a defendant during their trial in in any individual case is no more than that reasonably incurred by the Crown court. However, the central administrative the authority” (p. 8). databases for courts do not store information on the I have placed a copy in the Library of the House. reason for changes in legal representative or their legal I am aware of recent press reports that suggest (a) representation status. As such, the information requested some local authorities are over-charging council tax can be obtained only through the manual inspection of debtors for the issuing of summonses and liability orders, individual case files held by the courts at disproportionate over and above what is reasonable, (b) unacceptable cost. practices by private firms of bailiffs collecting unpaid Statistics are published on the representation status council tax on councils1 behalf and (c) councils receiving of each defendant England and Wales where it has been commission payments for the use of bailiffs. recorded, in the Ministry of Justice’s statistical bulletin I also note the concerns raised on 15 September 2011, ‘Judicial and Court Statistics’, the most recent edition Official Report, column 1206, by my hon. Friend the of which was published on 30 June 2011. The number Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman). of defendants and their representation status can be found in table 11.5. The report is available on the I will now review what action can be taken to address Ministry’s website at: this public concern, and will make a further statement in due course. http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ courts-and-sentencing/judicial-annual.htm The Government have also committed in the coalition agreement to: “provide more protection against aggressive bailiffs and unreasonable charging orders”. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Crime: Victims

Apprentices: East Midlands Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many victims of crime there were in each year between 1997 and 2010. [87335] Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many (a) men and Nick Herbert [holding answer 19 December 2011]: I (b) women enrolled on apprenticeships in (i) information have been asked to reply on behalf of the Home and communication technology and (ii) engineering Department. and manufacturing technology in (A) the East Midlands, (B) Leicester South constituency and (C) Leicester City There are two sources of data collected by the Home constituency in the latest period for which figures are Office namely the British Crime Survey (BCS) and the available; [87658] police recorded crime statistics. However, neither source provides a full picture of the extent of crime. (2) how many people aged from 16 to 24 years participated in a modern apprenticeship scheme in (a) The available information relates to BCS incidents of the East Midlands and (b) Leicester City in 2010-11. crime and the number of offences recorded by the police and is given in tables 2.01 and 2.04 of ‘Crime in [87659] England and Wales 2010/11’. Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship Human Rights: Business starts by gender in information and communication technology, engineering and manufacturing technologies and all sector subject areas in the East Midlands region, Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Leicester local authority and Leicester South parliamentary Justice pursuant to the answer of 15 December 2011, constituency, in the 2010/11 academic year, based on Official Report, columns 862-3W,on Legal Aid, Sentencing provisional data. Data for Leicester local authority and Punishment of Offenders Bill 2010-12, whether have been provided as there is not a parliamentary unnecessary and avoidable international business and constituency for Leicester City. Data are based on the human rights claims have progressed to court. [89113] home postcode of the learner. 405W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 406W

Table 1: Apprenticeship starts by gender and sector subject area in Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Leicester South parliamentary constituency, Leicester local authority 1 Business, Innovation and Skills which employers offer and the East Midlands, 2010/11 modern apprenticeships in (a) the East Midlands and Information Engineering (b) Leicester City. [87698] and and communication manufacturing All technology technologies apprenticeships Mr Hayes: I have made available in the Libraries of the House tables regarding employers which offer modern Leicester South apprenticeships in (a) East Midlands and (b) Leicester constituency City. Tables 3a and 3b show a list of all companies Female 10 10 340 offering one or more apprenticeship vacancies as at Male 50 80 380 21 December 2011 in the East Midlands region and Total 60 80 710 Leicester City ward. Please note December is not a typical month for vacancies. Leicester local Tables 4a and 4b show a list of all of the providers authority funded for apprenticeships in the East Midlands region Female 40 20 1,180 and Leicester local authority based on the providers’ Male 120 300 1,210 postcode. Total 160 320 2,400 Apprentices: Industrial Health and Safety East Midlands region Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for Female 280 370 22,180 Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Male 710 4,180 17,200 to the hon. Member for Peterborough of 29 November Total 1,000 4,550 39,380 2011, Official Report, column 846W,on apprenticeships, 1Provisional data. which health and safety requirements he intends to Notes: remove. [89114] 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Total figures may not add up due to rounding. 2. Geography information is based upon the home postcode of the Mr Hayes: We have removed all Skills Funding Agency learner. health and safety requirements relating to apprenticeships Source: that go beyond what health and safety legislation requires. Individualised Learner Record. Construction Industry Training Board: Finance Table 2 shows the number of apprenticeship starts by age in the East Midlands region and Leicester local Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, authority, in the 2010/11 academic year, based on provisional Innovation and Skills how much funding his Department data. Data are based on the home postcode of the allocated to the Construction Industry Training Board learner. (CITB) in (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12; how many full-time equivalent staff worked for the CITB in each Table 2: Apprenticeship starts by age in Leicester local authority and the East Midlands, 2010/111 such year; and if he will make a statement. [87910] 16-24 25+ Total Mr Hayes: The CITB do not receive any funding Leicester 1,280 1,120 2,400 from the Department. They raise funds through a levy local on employers in the construction industry. The levy authority depends on the continued consent of employers and is East 23,480 15,900 39,380 periodically debated in Parliament. Midlands region CITB-Construction Skills is also the sector skills 1 Provisional data. council (SSC) for the construction industry. As an SSC Notes: they receive some funding through contract from the 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10. Total figures may not add UK Commission for Employment and Skills. In 2010-11 up due to rounding. Construction Skills received £2,035,292 and in 2011-12 2. Geography information is based upon the home postcode of the learner. expect to receive £1,902,998. This is the total strategic 3. Age is based on age at the start of the programme. funding, including sums received for National Occupational 4. A small number of learners aged under 16 are included. Standards and qualifications. Source: Individualised Learner Record. CITB had 1,389 full-time equivalent staff as at 31 December 2010. The current full-time equivalent staff figure, as at 30 November 2011, is 1,295. Information on the number of apprenticeship starts is published in a quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). Departmental Apprentices The latest SFR was published on 27 October 2011: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Innovation and Skills (1) how many apprentices were Information on apprenticeship starts by geographic employed by each public body for which his Department breakdown, gender and sector subject areas are available is responsible between (a) April 2010 and March 2011 in the SFR Supplementary Tables: and (b) April and December 2011; and how many http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ apprenticeships he expects each public body to sponsor statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/ between (i) January and March 2012 and (ii) April 2012 Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/ and March 2013; [88701] 407W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 408W

(2) how much funding from the public purse has been funded institutions may be specifically designated on a allocated to sponsor apprenticeships in each of the course by course basis for the purposes of student public bodies for which his Department is responsible support at the discretion of the Secretary of State. between (a) April 2010 and March 2011, (b) April Privately funded institutions that wish to have a 2011 and March 2012 and (c) April 2012 and March course specifically designated apply to the Student Loans 2013. [88702] Company (SLC). Applications are assessed by the SLC against the course designation criteria in the Education Mr Hayes: The Department for Business, Innovation (Student Support) Regulations which include course and Skills has a large network of partner organisations type, duration and mode of study. In addition all courses of different types: executive, advisory and tribunal non- must be validated by a recognised UK awarding body departmental public bodies (NDPBs), agencies, public such as a university. This provides quality assurance. corporations, and non-ministerial departments. Some The SLC then makes a recommendation to BIS on 80% of the Department’s resources pass through these whether to designate courses or not. organisations, so they are vital to delivering our objectives. BIS undertakes further checks on organisations that Employment Tribunals Service are applying for specific designation for the first time. These include consideration of the management, governance, and financial stability of the organisation. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, If the Department is satisfied that the course meets the Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is course eligibility criteria; and that the provider does not taking to ensure that employers and employees are pose a risk to the use of public funds; the course may be aware of changes to the Employment Tribunal system. specifically designated. [89012] Higher Education: North East Mr Davey: We will ensure that changes to the employment tribunal system are notified to employers and employees, through the usual channels, after they Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for have completed the relevant parliamentary processes. Business, Innovation and Skills how many UCAS We will continue to work with stakeholders, including applications had been made by residents in (a) Hartlepool representative bodies, to support the circulation of relevant constituency, (b) the Tees Valley and (c) the North guidance and information. East in the 2011-12 admissions cycle by 19 December 2011; and how many such applications had been submitted Further Education: Higher Education by 19 December 2010 in the 2010-11 admissions cycle. [89006] Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has any plans to Mr Willetts: The latest information is in the tables amend the process by which further education colleges and has been provided by the Universities and Colleges validate their own higher education qualifications; and Admissions Service (UCAS). if he will make a statement. [88303] UCAS have stated that year-on-year changes for all courses at this early stage in the cycle are often different Mr Hayes: Our plans for Higher Education are laid from the position later in the cycle, and that it is too out in the White Paper, “Students at the Heart of the early in the cycle to extrapolate applicant volumes forward. System”, published June 2011, and have been the subject The second table includes only those applicants who of a technical consultation, “A New Regulatory applied to courses with a deadline of 15 October. The Framework” published in August 2011. The proposals main deadline for the majority of UCAS courses is that we have set out therein include a review of the 15 January. criteria and process by which higher and further education All applicants to UCAS as at 19 December by parliamentary institutions apply for degree awarding powers, in order constituency/region to create a simpler and more transparent system that Application cycle allows for greater diversity of provision. Area of The Government response to the White Paper and domicile 2010-111 2011-122 consultation responses will be published in early 2012. Hartlepool 536 407 We have also committed to reviewing Foundation constituency degree awarding powers in 2012 and will consider whether The Tees 3,205 2,772 any changes are needed in the context of that review. Valley North East 11,284 10,103 Higher Education: Admissions 1 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, Business, Innovation and Skills what procedure is in including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. place for the approval of courses of higher education as On time applicants to courses with an 15 October deadline1 by designated courses. [86033] parliamentary constituency/region Application cycle Mr Willetts [holding answer 14 December 2011]: Area of 2 3 Eligible higher education courses provided by publicly domicile 2010-11 2011-12 funded institutions in the UK are automatically designated Hartlepool 35 31 under the Education (Student Support) Regulations constituency 2009, as amended. Eligible courses delivered at privately Tees Valley4 240 217 409W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 410W

On time applicants to courses with an 15 October deadline1 by On time applicants to courses with an 15 October deadline1 by parliamentary constituency/region parliamentary constituency/region Application cycle Application cycle Area of domicile 2010-112 2011-123 Area of North-east 1,131 1,073 domicile 2010-112 2011-123 1 These are courses in medicine, dentistry and veterinary science, and courses at Oxbridge. North East 1,131 1,073 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. 1 These are courses in medicine, dentistry and veterinary science, and 3 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, courses at Oxbridge. including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, 4 Revised figures. These correct the figures provided in PQ 84356 including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. (254 for 2010-11 and 227 for 2011-120). The figures for the Tees 3 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, Valley include the constituencies of Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. Redcar, Stockton North, Stockton South, Darlington, and 4 Revised figures. These correct the figures provided in PQs 84160 and Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland. 84356 (254 for 2010-11 and 227 for 2011-12). The figures for the Tees Valley include the constituencies of Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Redcar, Stockton North, Stockton South, Darlington, and Middlesbrough Insolvency South and East Cleveland. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when insolvency figures for 2010 Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for will be published; and if he will make a statement. Business, Innovation and Skills how many UCAS [89021] applications had been submitted by residents of (a) Stockton North constituency, (b) the borough of Mr Davey: A statistical release showing insolvency Stockton-on-Tees, (c) Tees Valley and (d) the north-east figures for 2010 was published on 4 February 2011, and in the 2011-12 admissions cycle by 19 December 2011; is available at: and how many such applications had been submitted by http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/otherinformation/ 19 December 2010 in the 2010-11 admissions cycle. statistics/201102/index.htm [89015] Time series data for all insolvency procedures, from 2001 to Q3 2011 are available at: http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov.uk/otherinformation/ Mr Willetts: The latest information is in the following statistics/201111/alltables.xls tables and has been provided by the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS). Minimum Wage: EU Countries UCAS have stated that year-on-year changes for all courses at this early stage in the cycle are often different Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, from the position later in the cycle, and that it is too Innovation and Skills what information his Department early in the cycle to extrapolate applicant volumes forward. holds on the minimum wage in each EU country in (a) The second table includes only those applicants who the local currency of that country and (b) pounds applied to courses with a deadline of 15 October. The sterling in purchasing power parity terms. [89020] main deadline for the majority of UCAS courses is 15 January. Mr Davey: Information about minimum wage levels All applicants to UCAS as at 19 December by parliamentary in other countries, including EU member states, is contained constituency/region in Appendix 3 of the Low Pay Commission’s 2011 Application cycle report at: Area of domicile 2010-111 2011-122 http://www.lowpay.gov.uk/

Stockton North 465 357 constituency Music: Licensing Laws The borough of 1,051 904 Stockton-on-Tees Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Tees Valley 3,205 2,772 Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking North-east 11,284 10,103 to reduce the administrative burden on small businesses 1 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2011, associated with the requirement to hold a public including those who applied for deferred entry in 2012. performance licence for playing music. [88408] 2 Applicants applying to enter courses starting in autumn 2012, including those who applied for deferred entry in 2013. Mr Davey: The Government are in regular contact On time applicants to courses with an 15 October deadline1 by with the music collecting societies and encourages them parliamentary constituency/region to license in a manner which reduces the administrative Application cycle burden for small businesses. The functions of collecting Area of domicile 2010-112 2011-123 societies are not regulated by the Government at present. Stockton North 32 27 However, the Government accepted a recommendation constituency made by Professor Ian Hargreaves, in his independent The borough of 85 84 review of Intellectual Property and Growth, that collecting Stockton-on-Tees societies be regulated through codes of conduct that Tees Valley4 240 217 enshrine minimum standards of fairness and which 411W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 412W govern their relations with licensees. The Government with reference to the answer of 29 October 2008, Official are currently consulting on the implementation of this Report, column 1077W,on TICC Skill Centres: redundancy, recommendation. whether any employees who were made redundant did not receive ex-gratia payments. [88700] Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking Mr Davey: It is now more than 20 years since the to inform small businesses of the need to obtain a company went into liquidation and there are no known public performance licence for playing music. [88409] records of any redundant TICC Ltd employees who did not receive ex-gratia payments. A search of all the Mr Davey: The collection of royalties in respect of remaining documents to find any records of redundant public performance licences is undertaken by collecting TICC Ltd employees who did not receive ex-gratia societies. These are private commercial organisations, payments could be undertaken only at disproportionate and the primary responsibility for raising awareness of cost with no certainty of finding any such records (if their activities rests with them. However, the Government any previously existed). aims assist by providing the relevant information through I regret that there was an administrative error in the Intellectual Property Office website and public my reply to the hon. Member’s previous question of information helpline, and by encouraging collecting 21 November 2011, Official Report, column 159W. The societies to work with organisations which represent the correct answer should have read: interests of small businesses. “I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the then Qualifications Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Jonathan Shaw) on 29 October 2008, Official Report, column 1077W and to the then Minister of State for Business, Innovation Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills (Pat McFadden), on 16 October 2008, Official Report, Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to column 1428W and 6 October 2008, Official Report, column take to assess the operation of organisations which 292W”. deliver degree programmes overseas who are applying for degree awarding powers in the UK. [86758]

Mr Willetts: In the BIS Technical Consultation “A HEALTH new fit-for-purpose regulatory framework for the higher Cancer: Health Services education sector”1 we sought views as to whether, when considering applications for degree awarding powers, the track record criterion could be applied more flexibly Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for including, for example, when considering applications Health (1) what steps his Department is taking to from organisations whose track record relates to teaching ensure that patients diagnosed with rare cancers are overseas. We are currently analysing the responses to able to access written information about their illness; the consultation and will publish the Government’s [89010] response in due course. (2) which primary care trusts provide written information 1 The Technical Consultation closed on 27 October and can be to patients diagnosed with (a) small bowel cancer and found at “A new fit-for-purpose regulatory framework for the (b) other rare cancers. [89011] higher education sector” Paul Burstow: Providing accurate, tailored, timely Students: Loans and accessible information is key to improving patient experience. To ensure that all cancer patients, including Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for those with rare cancers, are able to access written Business, Innovation and Skills how many borrowers in information about their illness, the National Cancer the student loans scheme were (a) making repayments Action Team is working in partnership with Macmillan and (b) not earning enough to make repayments at the Cancer Support and Cancer Research UK to support end of the 2010-11 financial year. [89005] the use of information prescriptions (IPs) across the cancer care pathways. IPs can: help patients to understand Mr Willetts: The repayment status of borrowers who their diagnosis and treatment; provide signposts to further take out Income Contingent Repayment (ICR) loans is sources of advice and support, such as local patient published by the Student Loans Company (SLC) in the groups and self-management programmes; and provide Official Statistics release ’Income Contingent Repayments information on access benefits and social care services. by Repayment Cohort and Tax Year’. The National Cancer Patient Experience Survey, The most recent release was published in June 2011 published in December 2010, recorded the responses of and refers to financial year 2010-11: over 60,000 cancer patients across 158 trusts in England http://www.slc.co.uk/media/77960/SLCOSP022011.pdf to a wide range of questions. These questions included The publication contains a breakdown of the repayment those concerning the provision of written information. status of all ICR borrowers which can be found in The survey grouped patients into one of 12 categories table 1(i). that covered the more common tumour sites. Patients whose cancer could not be classified within these, such TICC Skill Centres: Redundancy as those who had a rarer cancer, were placed into a category designated as ’other’. While small bowel cancer Mr Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, was not included as a specific category, bowel cancer Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of was. In the following table are the results for patients 21 November 2011, Official Report, column 159W, and with bowel cancer, other cancers, and for all cancers. 413W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 414W

Anne Milton: The Government are committed to Question: Given easy-to-understand written information about cancer improving the lives of children and young people who diagnosis Percentage are disabled and providing more support for their families and carers. This is reflected in this year’s Operating Bowel cancer 65 Framework, where we identify disabled children as a Other cancers 41 specific group that the national health service should All cancers 66 pay particular attention to when commissioning and providing services. In order to incentivise quality improvements in patient treatment, care and experience, all trusts that took part Subject to the passage of the Health and Social Care in the survey were sent a bespoke report showing their Bill, the NHS and public health reforms will also provide own results. Each report displayed the results for each a significant opportunity to improve the range and question, in the survey benchmarked against other trusts. quality of services available to children and young We are conducting a 2011 survey for publication in people with disabilities and complex needs. The role of summer 2012 and will be looking closely to see where health and well-being boards, which will include local improvements have been made and where more work authority directors of children’s services as a core member, needs to be done. Both national and trust level reports will play a key role in examining the health needs of can be found on the Department’s website at: their local population, including children and young people, and designing a joint health and well-being www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsStatistics/DH_122516 strategy to meet those needs. This strategy will also be informed by local people—again General Practitioners: Pharmacy including all children and young people—through the local HealthWatch. Again, HealthWatch will be a member Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of each health and well-being board, well positioned to what discussions he plans to have with the Dispensing ensure the strategy properly reflects the needs of the Doctors’ Association and General Practitioners Committee local population. on the conclusions of the Cost of Service Inquiry for Our reforms propose that clinical commissioning groups Dispensing Practices. [89000] and local authorities’ commissioning plans should be informed by the local joint health and well-being strategy— Mr Simon Burns: Negotiations on general practitioners including services for children and young people. contractual matters, including payments to dispensing In addition, many of the indicators within the NHS doctors relating to dispensing medicines to their patients, and Public Health Outcomes Frameworks, either directly are ongoing. These negotiations are conducted between or indirectly require improvements in services for all the General Practitioners Committee of the British children and young people. Medical Association and NHS Employers on behalf of the national health service. The Department of Health also worked closely with the Department for Education in the development of General Practitioners: Waiting Lists the Government’s Green Paper ‘Support and Aspiration —A new approach to SEN’, published in March 2011. As part of testing the proposals in the Green Paper, Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 20 pathfinders covering 31 local authorities and primary for Health what assessment he has made of the average care trust clusters have been appointed to test the waiting time to see a GP (a) nationally and (b) in each ambition of the proposals. This includes testing various region; and if he will make a statement. [88694] elements to improve the lives of children and young people with disabilities and their families, including a Mr Simon Burns: The GP Patient Survey asks patients new single assessment process with a single education, about their experiences of general practitioner (GP) health and care plan to support access to services. The services. The latest national and primary care trust option of a personal budget will help children, young (PCT) level results were published on 15 December people and their parents to have more choice and 2011 (practice specific level data will not be available control over the care they receive. The pilots will run until June 2012 when full year results will be published). initially for 18 months. Nationally, results relating to GP appointments are as follows: Health Services: Coventry 88% of patients were able to get an appointment at their GP surgery last time they tried, although 12% of patients did have to call back nearer to the time; Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State 93% of patients say their appointments are convenient; and for Health what estimate he has made of the costs of NHS reorganisation in Coventry South constituency. 79% rate their experience of making an appointment as good. [88693] Results at PCT level can be found on the GP Patient Survey website: Mr Simon Burns: The impact assessment published www.gp-patient.co.uk/results/ alongside the Health and Social Care Bill in January and republished when, the Bill was introduced into the Health Services: Children House of Lords in September, estimated the cost of national health service modernisation to be £1.2 billion Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for to £1.3 billion. This upfront cost will be more than Health what steps his Department is taking to ensure recouped as a result of associated cost-savings by the that disabled children are able to access the health end of 2012-13. The gross savings are estimated at services that they require. [89009] £4.5 billion and the net saving from modernisation will 415W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 416W be £3.2 billion to £3.3. billion over the lifetime of this Plastic Surgery Parliament, and £1.5 billion per year from 2014-15 onwards. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The Department has not estimated a regional breakdown what discussions (a) he and (b) officials in his Department of costs, as this would depend on local decisions. have had with (i) Ministers and (ii) officials in the Copies of both impact assessments have been placed devolved Administrations on the treatment of women in the Library. with breast implants manufactured by Poly Implant Prothèse. [89002] Health Services: EU Countries Mr Simon Burns: Ministers and officials have regular discussions about a range of issues with their counterparts John Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in the devolved Administrations. In addition, the Medicines (1) what payments have been made to other EU and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) member states for the treatment of British citizens in routinely share with officials in the devolved Administrations each of the last three financial years; [88931] all advice to Ministers on issues relating to the safety of (2) what payments have been received from other EU medicines and medical devices. Recent discussions and member states for the treatment by the NHS of EU communications have included those relating to breast citizens in each of the last three financial years. [88947] implants manufactured by Poly Implant Prothèse.

Anne Milton: European economic area (EEA) medical cost payments to and from the United Kingdom are shown in the following table. The payments include DEFENCE health costs for temporary visitors using the European Health Insurance Card; workers posted to work in Accommodation another member state by their employer; state funded treatment from one member state to another and health Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for costs for state pensioners. Defence pursuant to the written ministerial statement The majority of the payments made by the UK relate of 12 December 2011, Official Report, column 63WS, to health costs for state pensioners; far more UK state on Accommodation, how many (a) employees of his pensioners retire abroad than pensioners from abroad Department and (b) armed forces personnel will (i) retire here, this explains the large variation between have their wages reduced and (ii) be made redundant as what the UK pays out, and what it receives. a result of the new tri-service policy on the provision of domestic assistance and official hospitality. [86960] EEA health care payments to and from the United Kingdom £ Mr Robathan [holding answer 19 December 2011]: Payments made by Payments received by Service personnel who were previously assigned to an the United Kingdom the United Kingdom official service residence and who are no longer required 2008-09 451,300,000 33,100,000 in that role, will be reassigned to other duties. Civilian 2009-10 817,700,000 40,500,000 personnel hourly pay will not be reduced, but we are 2010-11 451,600,000 51,700,000 working closely with contractors to ensure, where we Notes: can, that when the number of hours worked in a residence 1. Claims are made and paid in the currency of the claiming member, has been reduced, individuals affected are able to undertake state. Totals shown for payments to member states are £ equivalent other domestic duties within the terms of the multi-activity totals based on exchange rates at the time of payment. contract. Any redundancies arising from this change 2. Claims are made in arrears, sometimes several years in arrears. would be a decision for the relevant contractor. Payments made in any one year will therefore relate to claims for previous years, and do not reflect the value of claims made or received in that year. Payment totals may vary significantly due to variations in Aircraft Carriers the timing of payments made or received for different countries and different claims. Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what assessment he has made of the Influenza: Vaccination interoperability of the F35C’s arresting hook system with aircraft carrier-based arresting gear; and if he will Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [87785] Health what estimate he has made of the level of uptake of the influenza vaccination offered by the NHS since Peter Luff: Investigations have been and will continue to be made to ensure that the advanced arrestor gear September 2011. [89004] (AAG) that is being installed on the aircraft carrier will Anne Milton: The latest provisional influenza vaccine be fully compatible with the Joint Combat Aircraft. The uptake figures published on 5 January 2011 show that US has invested significant resource in AAG technology for general practitioner patients: and is wholly committed to its successful implementation. 73% aged 65 years or over have had the vaccine; Armed Forces: Deployment 50% under the age of 65 years in at risk groups have had the vaccine; and Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 26% of pregnant women have had the vaccine this year. Defence how many armed forces personnel were At 30 November 2011, provisional influenza vaccine deployed on ceremonial duties (a) in London and (b) uptake in front-line health care workers was. 40%. around the world in 2011. [88549] 417W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 418W

Mr Robathan: During 2011 there were some 296 Type of Medal/Clasp Medals Clasps personnel involved on a daily basis on routine public duties primarily in London. In addition to this, there Historic (First World War) 29 0 were a number of other ceremonial events throughout Historic (Second World War) 8,600 256 2011 including the Queen’s birthday parade, the royal Post War Campaigns 2,223 131 wedding, the Cenotaph remembrance parade and other Current 17,990 182 events across the UK and the world, which would have Conduct and Reserves 5,177 2,332 involved these and other armed forces personnel drawn Elizabeth Cross and Memorial 463 0 from units across the three services. Scroll Honours and Gallantry 271 0 Armed Forces: Education The total gross costs incurred by the MOD Medal 1 Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Office in 2011 is £2,505,657 . (1) what the total cost to the public purse was of the 1 The figure provided includes all medal, bullion, and actual staff Standard Learning Credit scheme in (a) 2007-08, (b) pay costs for the MOD Medal Office, and excludes any Head Office/Corporate overheads. It also includes £994,664 Net Additional 2008-09, (c) 2009-10 and (d) 2010-11; [87893] Costs of Military Operations (NACMO) which in line with HM (2) what the average proportion of course fees claimed Treasury Guidance, can be claimed back from the Treasury by service personnel through the Standard Learning Reserve. Credit scheme is; [87894] (3) what the average contribution made by the Cyprus: Economic Situation Government towards the cost of course fees undertaken by service personnel through the Standard Learning John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Credit scheme is; [87895] what recent assessment he has made of the net annual (4) how many service personnel used the Standard contribution to the economies of (a) Cyprus and (b) Learning Credit scheme in (a) 2007-08, (b) 2008-09, Germany of the basing of UK service personnel in (c) 2009-10 and (d) 2010-11. [87896] those countries. [88852]

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence promotes Nick Harvey: To inform the Basing Review, the Ministry lifelong learning among members of the armed forces; of Defence recently estimated the annual contribution this is encouraged through the Learning Credits schemes. of UK service personnel based in Germany to Germany’s The Standard Learning Credit (SLC) scheme supplies Gross Domestic Product as at least £650 million. financial support, throughout the Service person’s career, We have made no recent assessment of the net annual for multiple, small-scale learning activities. contribution to the economy of Cyprus through the SLC is a refund scheme and operates as an annualised basing of UK service personnel there. allowance to the value of £175.00. Training by this funding stream is subject to a minimum 20% personal Departmental Consultants contribution and fees are refunded upon completion of learning. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State The following table lists the amount refunded and the for Defence what his policy is on the employment of number of service personnel who have accessed the external consultants by his Department; and if he will scheme. make a statement. [88195]

Total number of Total refunded Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence’s current policy Financial year claimants (£ million) on employing external consultants is contained in Notice 2007-08 14,600 1.9 2010DIN08-23 of July 2010, a copy of which is in the 2008-09 16,700 2.3 Library of the House. This policy is in line with Cabinet 2009-10 18,100 2.8 Office guidance on the subject. 2010-11 10,600 1.5 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Records relating to this funding are retained within Defence how many consultants were employed by his individual units. It is therefore, not possible to identify Department in 2011; and what the cost to the public the value of average course fees and the Government’s purse was. [88342] contribution without incurring disproportionate cost. Peter Luff [holding answer 10 January 2012]: For Armed Forces: Military Decorations Management consultancy contracts (as defined by Cabinet Office), the Department specifies its requirement as an Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for output to be achieved. It does not specify the number of Defence how many and what type of medals have been consultants to be employed as this is a matter for the issued by the Medal Office in 2011; and at what cost contractor. such medals were awarded. [88315] Between January and October 2011 the Ministry of Defence spent £15.9 million on Management consultancy. Mr Robathan: The number and types of medals and Data for November and December are not yet available. clasps that have been issued by the Ministry of Defence Total spend on Management consultancy in financial Medal Office between 1 January and 21 December 2011 year (FY) 2010-11 was £26 million and in FY 2009-10, is shown in the following table: £79 million. 419W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 420W

Departmental Procurement Departmental Written Questions

Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence which services his Department has outsourced pursuant to the answer of 13 December 2011, Official in each of the last five years. [84238] Report, columns 752-53W, on departmental written questions, what the question number is of each question Peter Luff: Information on outsourced services for written answer which was answered after 30 sitting is not held centrally and could be provided only at days. [88153] disproportionate cost. Information on the Ministry of Defence (MOD)’s Mr Robathan: The information requested is as follows: Private Finance Initiative commitments is published in 1059 the MOD Annual Report, copies of which have been 1310 placed in the Library of the House and are available on the MOD’s website at the following address: 3250 6310 http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/ CorporatePublications/AnnualReports/ 7430 10108 Departmental Secondment 14476 20822 Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State 38982 for Defence what secondments there have been to his Department from (a) industry and (b) the third sector 40140 since May 2010; what the (i) purpose and (ii) duration 40141 is of each secondment; and whether each secondment 41024 was to a policy development role. [86133] 56077 56175 Mr Robathan: Inward secondments are covered by 59547 the general restrictions on external recruitment that apply across the civil service and are, therefore, only 59615 permissible where they are judged to be front-line or 62989 business critical. Secondments are also limited to a 66612 maximum of two years in duration. Since May 2010, 66614 23 people have been seconded into the Ministry of 67102 Defence. A number of them have now completed their 67103 secondments. We do not hold information on the 69757 organisations from which people have been seconded centrally. The roles they have filled include Information 69758 Technology, Administrative Support, Nuclear Propulsion, 69774 Secretariat and Private Office, Legal, Electronics/Avionics, 70329 Project Management, Intelligence Analysis, Economics, 70331 Consultancy, Programme Management and Marine 70333 Engineering. 70336 Departmental Temporary Employment 71290 72965 Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for 73164 Defence how many temporary staff have been recruited 74751. to his Department between September and November 2011. [88004] Documents: Data Protection Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence recruited 16 temporary staff between September and November Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2011. Temporary contracts are used to reflect the finite (1) what systems are in place in his Department to nature of the requirement and include casual appointments measure how many documents are protectively marked as well as longer fixed terms. The appointments are in any given month or year; if he will estimate the usually for teaching grades, or in direct support of number of documents which were protectively marked ongoing operations in Afghanistan, or to provide cover under each level of classification in (a) 2010 and (b) for service personnel deployed on current operations. 2011; and if he will make a statement; [89084] Recruitment to the civil service is regulated by the (2) how many documents were protectively marked Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. The in each year between 2005 and 2011; and what marking Act established the Civil Service Commission with the each such document received. [89086] role of regulating recruitment to the civil service, principally through their Recruitment Principles. All temporary Mr Robathan: There is no central register of all recruitment to the Department has been in accordance protectively marked documents, files or other assets. with these Recruitment Principles. The Recruitment Accountable items are recorded and accounted for locally Principles are available at: in accordance with government policy. This information www.civilservicecommission.org.uk could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 421W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 422W

Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft what (a) training and (b) guidance is given to officials in his Department on the operation of his Department’s Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State protective marking schemes. [89085] for Defence whether he has set a delivery timetable for the F35C Joint Strike Fighter. [87816] Mr Robathan: Training and guidance on the operation of the government protective marking scheme is provided Peter Luff: As set out in the Strategic Defence and as part of information handling and security training Security Review, we continue to plan on delivery of and included in the information security policy and Joint Combat Aircraft capability coherently with the guidance published within the Department. Carrier from 2020. However, we will not set a firm in service date until after our next Main Gate decision Ex-servicemen in 2013. MOD Abbey Wood Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps his Department has taken to Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence support retired armed forces personnel through the what permission requirements there are for each grade process of resettlement. [88194] of staff working at MOD Abbey Wood who wish to move to work in the private defence sector; what mechanism Mr Robathan: All service leavers are entitled to some exists to monitor the granting of such permissions; and form of resettlement advice. This includes financial if he will make a statement. [87725] related briefings covering budget and debt management, with further in-depth advice available if desired. Specialist Mr Robathan: Former Ministry of Defence (MOD) housing advice, and advice on the importance of seeking civil servants at all levels and members of the armed medical help, including the ability to access mental forces are subject to rules on accepting outside appointments health services should they feel it necessary. or employment. These apply for two years after leaving Further support is available to eligible personnel Crown service as set out in the Government’s Business through the Career Transition Partnership (a partnership Appointment Rules. Applications from senior MOD between the Ministry of Defence and Right Management) civil servants or members of the armed forces (senior through training courses; career transition workshops; civil service grade three and above and military equivalent) employment and future career advice; assistance with are referred to the Advisory Committee on Business CV writing and job preparation; vocational training; Appointments, who act independently to give advice to and a job-search/recruitment facility. In addition lifetime the Prime Minister regarding these applications. Decisions job finding support is available from the Officers’ on all other applications are considered and approved Association or the Regular Forces Employment Association. internally based on the grade/rank in line with above governing bodies. Ex-servicemen: Employment

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 12 December 2011, Candidates: Leave Official Report, column 472W, on ex-servicemen: employment, how many individuals constitute the five Jo Swinson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister what per cent. of Career Transition Partnership clients who his policy is on recommendation 37 of the Final Report have not secured employment within six months of of the Speaker’s Conference on Parliamentary leaving. [87929] Representation that the Government should bring forward legislative proposals to give approved prospective Mr Robathan [holding answer 10 January 2012]: parliamentary candidates who are employees the right Some 800 service leavers, who were clients of the Career to request unpaid leave from the dissolution of Parliament Transition Partnership, were not in employment within until election day; and if he will make a statement. six months of leaving the armed forces. However, we do [89223] not collect information on the reasons for this situation, and the figures may include those who have retired, are Mr Harper: The Government are extending the right taking a career break, have re-entered education, or are to request flexible working, (currently available to parents travelling. and carers), to all employees with 26 weeks qualifying service, regardless of the reasons, with the onus on both HMS Queen Elizabeth the employer and employee to reach an arrangement that works for both. Such arrangements would be beneficial to election candidates. Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects sea trials for HMS Queen Elizabeth to House of Lords: Reform commence; and if he will make a statement. [88812] John Mann: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister with Peter Luff: The contractor-based sea trials programme reference to his proposals for reform of the House of will be reviewed along with the in service dates for both Lords, what assessment he has made of the regional carriers, as part of our conversion investigations which balance of existing members of the House of Lords. are due to conclude at the end of this year. [88817] 423W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 424W

Mr Harper: A disproportionate number of current Public Sector: Procurement members of the House of Lords reside in London and the south-east with other regions, such as the east Jon Trickett: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet midlands and the north-west, being underrepresented. Office what plans he has to develop a mechanism to The Government propose an 80% or 100% elected enable members of the public to (a) raise concerns reformed House of Lords based on a system of about public service provision and (b) hold providers proportional representation using large electoral districts. of public services to account. [88777] The weight of a vote would be broadly equal for voters across the United Kingdom. Mr Letwin: The Open Public Services White Paper published last July outlined the Government’s plans for John Mann: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister with modernising public services based on five principles, reference to his proposals for reform of the House of including accountability. There are a number of reforms Lords, what assessment he has made of the reliability to ensure that public services are accountable to citizens, of paternity claims in determining rights to hereditary both directly and through elected representatives. Choice, peerages. [88922] transparency and a “voice” can also help to improve accountability. Mr Harper: The Government have made no such Departments are responsible for implementing the assessment. There are established procedures already in Open Public Services agenda. This includes ensuring place for determining succession to hereditary peerages. that there are clear and accessible routes for individuals Under the Government’s proposals, there will be no to raise concerns about the services which they are reserved places for hereditary peers in a reformed House responsible for, and that effective mechanisms for holding of Lords. providers to account are embedded in their reform programmes. Members: Correspondence For example, in response to the NHS Future Forum’s report, the Government have made changes to the Mr Baron: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister when Health and Social Care Bill to strengthen accountability he plans to respond to the letters from the hon. Member in the NHS, including clarifying overall ministerial for Basildon and Billericay of (a) 20 September and responsibility for the NHS and improving governance (b) 10 November 2011 regarding a constituent, Ms T arrangements for clinical commissioning groups. Sparrow. [89096] We are also working with other Departments to explore new ideas for strengthening means of redress The Deputy Prime Minister: My office does not hold for service users, such as exploring whether the ombudsman a record of receiving the hon. Member’s original can play a greater role in providing redress if choice is correspondence. My office received a copy of the not available or where standards are not good enough. correspondence from the hon. Member today and a We will be publishing an update on progress on the response will be sent as soon as possible. Open Public Services agenda soon. This will include a description of the measures taken to improve the accountability of public services across the board. CABINET OFFICE

Public Sector: Job Satisfaction EDUCATION

Jo Swinson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Departmental Manpower Office what steps his Department is taking to improve wellbeing and morale among public sector workers. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for [88807] Education how many people were working in his Department on (a) 11 May 2010 and (b) 8 December Mr Maude: Every employer is responsible for the 2011. [87347] morale and wellbeing of their own staff, and each faces Tim Loughton: Information on the number of staff their own unique circumstances and challenges to deliver working in the Department on the exact dates requested this. The Cabinet Office supports a collaborative approach is not held centrally. within the civil service to improving morale and wellbeing. We facilitate and support a network for Government Number of staff employed by the Department at the nearest available Departments and their agencies to promote best practice dates and share learning and different approaches to improving Headcount Full-time equivalent Education Education engagement within organisations. Further information 1 1 is available on the civil service website at: family Department family Department http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/improving/employee- 30 March 2010 9,710 2,691 9,258 2,571 engagement-in-the-civil-service 30 November 2011 7,949 2,752 7,466 2,633 This is complemented by our approach to measuring 1 Includes figure for Department the wellbeing of civil servants, which was piloted in the The latest published information for the Education Civil Service People Survey this year. While the survey Family work force (the Department and its arm’s length data we have is experimental at the moment, we believe bodies) is now available on the Department’s website: that measurement should shed new light on barriers http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/ and opportunities to maintaining and improving workforce departmentalinformation/transparency/a00199711/monthly- wellbeing during challenging times. workforce-management-information-2011 425W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 426W

Email Academic year Type Level 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education with reference to the Information Commissioner’s guidance Functional Skills Level 93 93 99 0 on official information held in private email accounts, QCF 2 what steps he is taking to ensure (a) information concerning General Level 1,064 1,073 11,967 11,379 the Building Schools for the Future Programme in Certificate 1_2 Secondary Sandwell and (b) other data from the private email Education accounts of former employees of his Department is General NVQ Level 0000 retained. [88686] 2 Key Skills Level 264 264 264 270 Tim Loughton [holding answer 10 January 2012]: 2 The Department is considering the new guidance and NVQ Level 204 222 168 129 the Commissioner’s report into the Department’s practices, 2 policies and procedures provided on the same day. Once Occupational Level 3330 consideration is complete officials will take forward, as Qualification 2 appropriate, the recommendations made. Other General Level 003852 Qualification 1_2 Pupils: Assessments Level 414 459 456 426 2 Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Principal Level 03990138 Education what the total number of key stage four Learning 2 qualifications accredited as GCSE or equivalent standard Project Level 6121818 2 was for each academic year from 1999-2000 to date. QCF Level 72 978 1,958 3,640 [88774] Qualification 2 Vocational Level 1119 1,182 1,092 650 Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Office of Qualifications Qualification 2 and Examinations Regulation. Glenys Stacey, its chief Totals 3,371 4,457 4,324 5,581 executive, has written to the hon. Member and a copy 1 There are duplicate GCSE qualifications in place during the period of her reply has been placed in the House Libraries. in which the specifications were revised. Source: National Register of Letter from Glenys Stacey, dated 11 January 2012: Qualifications I am responding to your parliamentary question with regard to the qualifications we accredit. I would like to bring your attention to two things to assist your INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT understanding of the limits of the information we have provided. Co-operatives Firstly, we only have access to information collected since 2007. We have no knowledge that data was collected in the years before Ofqual’s existence. Secondly, to best answer your question, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for we have interpreted the concept of equivalence. That is, we have International Development what steps (a) his Department included accredited GCSEs and qualifications that are Level 1_2 and (b) those bodies for which his Department is or Level 2. This is the most sensible interpretation that we can use. responsible are taking to mark UN Yearof the Co-operative In practice, equivalence is a little more exacting and refers to grades as well as qualifications. 2012; and if he will make a statement. [88607] You ask for information by academic year and it may that you are particularly interested in school qualifications. I should say Mr Duncan: DFID continues to engage with co-operative that we don’t have information here to show which of these organisations in various ways—as financial intermediaries, qualifications are used in schools, but many of them won’t be, in agriculture and as members of the private sector. We because they are designed for the workplace. do not have a separate strategy for working with The table shows the number of qualifications on the Register co-operative organisations. DFID will work closely that are offered in England by awarding organisations and are with the Cabinet Office, the Mutuals Taskforce and available for pre-16 learning. This includes GCSEs and qualifications with Co-operatives UK to develop and take full advantage at Level 1_2 or Level 2 for Academic Years2007/2008 to 2010/2011. of opportunities to celebrate the achievements of I am afraid we have not been able to fully answer your co-operative organisations during the United Nations question. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you need to drill International Year of Co-operatives. down into the information further and we will endeavour to assist you. Developing Countries: Agriculture

Academic year Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Type Level 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 International Development what steps his Department Basic Skills Level 72 72 72 72 (a) has taken and (b) plans to take to alleviate hunger 2 and famine through investment in agriculture in the English Other Level 36 36 39 39 developing world. [88343] Languages 2 Free Standing Level 24 24 24 24 Mr O’Brien: In 2009, the UK agreed to contribute Mathematics 2 £1.1 billion between 2009 and 2012 in support of the Qualification Aquila Food Security Initiative (AFSI), with prioritised Functional Skills Level 003123investment in agriculture to promote food and nutrition NQF 2 security. After two years we have disbursed over 80% of 427W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 428W our AFSI commitment. As an example, the Department Department for International Development’s (DFID’s) for International Development is co-funding a programme publication: “UK Aid: Changing lives, delivering results”, on land tenure reform in Rwanda which will result in the UK agreed to give 15 million people access to clean 8 million smallholder farmers receiving land titles. The drinking water, improve access to sanitation for 25 million title document gives farmers a greater sense of ownership people, improve hygiene for 15 million people. of their land which results in increased investment in The UK’s funding to the GAVI Alliance (formerly productive capacity. DFID also supports the the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisations) Comprehensive African Agriculture Development will vaccinate 80 million children and save 1.4 million Programme to ensure that support for country-led lives during 2011 to 2015. This will enable the GAVI agricultural development plans is co-ordinated effectively. Alliance to roll out the rotavirus vaccine, (rotavirus is DFID funding for agricultural research has increased the most common cause of severe diarrhoea in young from £35.6 million in 2005-06 to £70 million in 2010-11. children worldwide) vaccinating 50 million children in DFID has, for example, co-funded GALVmed (Global more than 30 of the world’s poorest countries. In addition Alliance for Livestock Veterinary Medicines) to make we are helping to develop vaccines against bacteria that the vaccine for East Coast Fever (ECF) more accessible cause diarrhoea. and affordable to livestock keepers. ECF is a tick- transmitted disease that threatens more than 25 million International Citizen Service cattle across eastern and southern Africa each year. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what consultation he undertook International Development what policies his Department prior to establishing the International Citizen Service. has implemented to support agricultural production in [88043] developing countries since his appointment. [88518]

Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Mr Andrew Mitchell: The International Citizen Service Development (DFID) Aid Reviews published in March (ICS) has been designed in two phases: a pilot phase 2011 set out the Department’s priorities and expected and a phase of full implementation. Consultations on results over the coming three years. Over the next three the design of the pilot phase were held with a range of years DFID will provide support to agriculture, food volunteering organisations. The pilot phase has been security and nutrition in developing countries in order used to provide evidence for the design of the full to stop 20 million more children going hungry and to implementation. Consultations to help design the full ensure another 4 million people have enough food programme have been conducted in three ways: throughout the year. (1) 5 early engagement meetings were held at DFID. These were open to all and were attended by stakeholders from academia, We will achieve these results through a range of volunteering organisations and research groups, details available policies and programmes. DFID funding for agricultural at research has increased from £35.6 million in 2005-06 to http://www.dfid.gov.uk/ics just under £70 million in 2010-11. DFID has, for example, (2) A mid term evaluation of the pilot phase of the ICS was co-funded the Global Alliance for Livestock Veterinary conducted between June and October 2011. The evaluation exercise Medicines to make the vaccine for East Coast Fever collected views from volunteers, the communities where volunteers (ECF), a serious tick-transmitted disease of cattle in have been active, and from the organisations sending young eastern and southern Africa, more accessible and affordable people overseas. A copy is available at to livestock keepers. DFID also supports the work of http://www.dfid.gov.uk/ics the International Fund for Agricultural Development (3) DFID conducted consultations directly with stakeholders (IFAD) and the Food and Agriculture Organisation from Government Departments and volunteering agencies. (FAO) to address global food security and raise the incomes of poor rural men and women through investments Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for in agriculture. Recognising the important role the private International Development what criteria his Department sector plays in promoting agricultural growth, DFID is will apply when awarding the contract to administer the promoting public-private partnerships in agriculture in International Citizen Service. [88044] developing countries to mobilise investments that benefit smallholder farmers. For example, in Mozambique, DFID Mr Andrew Mitchell: The high level award criteria for is supporting the Beira Agricultural Growth Corridor, the International Citizen Service (ICS) programme were in order to create new rural jobs and raise smallholder published in the Official Journal of the European Union farm incomes. (OJEU) advert in line with the Public Contracts Regulations. Developing Countries: Diarrhoea These were:

Weighting Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department Methodology 45 is taking to reduce the rate of mortality from diarrhoea Quality of personnel 30 in the developing world. [89001] Commercial proposal 25

Mr O’Brien: The UK is at the forefront of international The Invitation to Tender (ITT) pack contains a efforts to help prevent deaths from diarrhoea, which is breakdown of the award criteria into the relevant sub- the second leading cause of death for children under criteria and weightings. The Invitation to Tender pack five globally. Hygiene promotion is the most cost effective will be published in line with the Government’s intervention for controlling endemic diarrhoea. In the Transparency Agenda when the ITT deadline has passed. 429W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 430W

Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of claims for (a) vibration white finger and (b) International Development what process his Department chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; and to which will follow when awarding the contract to administer solicitor each such payment was made. [88943] the International Citizen Service. [88046] Charles Hendry: Tables showing the amount paid to Mr Andrew Mitchell: The International Citizen Service each solicitors for handling claims for Vibration White (ICS) is being tendered through an open procurement Finger and Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease process under the European Union Restricted Procedure under the Coal Health Compensation Scheme will be and in line with the Public Contracts Regulations 2006. made available in the Libraries of the House. These figures were as at 19 June 2011. As both Somalia: International Co-operation Schemes are now concluded no further updates will be available. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what his Department’s Departmental Manpower objectives are for the International Conference on Somalia in London on 23 February 2012. [88037] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many speechwriters his Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Government’s overall objective Department employs at each pay grade. [89398] for the London Conference on Somalia is to deliver a new, international approach to Somalia. The objectives Gregory Barker: The Department currently has one of the Department for International Development (DFID), person employed at Grade 7 as a speechwriter. working closely with other Government Departments and international partners, are to contribute to achieving Departmental Meetings concrete progress on the actions which will help create the stability required for development and poverty reduction, and prevent a recurrence of humanitarian crisis in Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Somalia. and Climate Change what his Department’s policy is on record keeping for official meetings. [89044] The Government hopes that the Conference will agree practical measures to: confront immediate threats from Gregory Barker: DECC’s policy on record keeping is terrorism and piracy; support peace-keeping activity; set in accordance with standards and guidelines set out broaden responsibility for a peaceful political settlement; by the National Archives. promote stability at the sub-national level; renew commitment to tackle Somalia’s humanitarian crisis, All information which is of corporate value to DECC and improve international co-ordination. must be saved into the Department’s electronic records management system. This includes records of official meetings which are kept for accountability and audit purposes, and for other ongoing business needs. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE These records will be kept for a minimum period of eight years; after this they will be reviewed. Minutes Coal Health Compensation Scheme which are no longer required for legal, accountability of historical purposes will then be destroyed. The remainder John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy will either be transferred to the National Archives or and Climate Change (1) how much has been paid in held for as long as required and then destroyed. compensation under the Coal Health Compensation Scheme for cases of (a) chronic obstructive pulmonary Departmental Work Experience disease and (b) vibration white finger in each parliamentary constituency; [88941] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (2) how many people have received compensation and Climate Change what guidelines his Department under the Coal Health Compensation scheme for (a) issues to its non-departmental public bodies on the chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and (b) vibration employment of unpaid interns. [89397] white finger in each parliamentary constituency. [88942] Gregory Barker: DECC has not issued any guidelines Charles Hendry: Tables showing the amount of to its non-departmental public bodies on the employment compensation paid to former miners and their families of unpaid interns as this information was centrally for Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease and Vibration disseminated to Departments and non-departmental White Finger under the Coal Health Compensation public bodies following the Government’s Social Mobility Schemes and the number of claims settled by way of Strategy announcement in April 2011. payment broken down by constituencies will be made available in the Libraries of the House. Energy: Meters These figures were as at 19 June 2011. As both Schemes are now concluded no further updates will be Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy available. and Climate Change whether he plans to publish communications and security interface standards for John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy smart meters to enable manufacturers to develop and Climate Change how much has been paid from the equipment that will inter-operate with smart meters. Coal Health Compensation scheme to solicitors in [89024] 431W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 432W

Charles Hendry: Yes. We anticipate that specifications Natural Gas: Prices in these areas will be published by the end of the year. Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Energy and Climate Change what information his of the number of households that have smart meters. Department holds on the average cost of gas on the [89065] international wholesale market in each year since 2000. [89717] Charles Hendry: Drawing on information provided by the large energy suppliers, at the end of 2011 Charles Hendry: The Department monitors daily approximately 540,000 meters with some aspects of wholesale gas prices on an ongoing basis. Global gas smart functionality were installed in around 350,000 homes markets are not fully integrated and therefore a number across Great Britain. A number of the meters installed of different regional spot markets exist. The Department were duel fuel resulting in the total number of meters monitors key spot markets including the UK National installed being higher than the number of households Balancing Point (NBP), US Henry Hub (HH) , Dutch affected. Title Transfer Facility (TTF) and the Zeebrugge Hub in Belgium. Energy: Prices The Department’s wholesale gas price data comes from a private data provider on a daily basis. A summary David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for of annual average wholesale prices derived from the Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has daily prices is shown in the following table. made of the effect of the electricity market review on consumer energy bills in 2025 assuming fossil fuel prices Average annual wholesale gas prices 2000-11 (a) do not rise and (b) rise by 30 per cent. [88876] Pence per Charles Hendry: DECC regularly publishes energy therm NBP ZEE TTF1 HH projections which present assumptions for future fossil 2000 17 19 — 29 fuel prices (coal, oil and gas) under a range of scenarios 2001 22 22 — 27 but not including these specific criteria. The analysis 2002 16 17 — 22 contained in section 5 of the impact assessment (IA) 2003 20 21 22 34 accompanying the electricity market reform White Paper 2004 24 24 23 32 is based on DECC’s 2010 updated energy projections and provides details on the impact of electricity market 2005 42 40 33 49 reform policies on consumers under the range of DECC 2006 40 43 40 37 fossil fuel price assumptions. 2007 30 30 30 35 2008 58 59 58 47 The EMR White Paper IA can be found at the following weblink: 2009 31 31 31 25 2010 42 43 43 28 http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/policy-legislation/ EMR/2180-emr-impact-assessment.pdf 2011 56 57 57 25 1 Data for TTF prices is available from 21 January 2003 onwards. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: UCIS Heren. Energy and Climate Change what the evidential basis is for his Department’s estimate that the overall average Offshore Industry household energy bill in 2020 would be 7% lower without the energy and climate policies the Government is pursuing. [89618] Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change whether the review of the Charles Hendry: On 23 November 2011, alongside oil and gas regulatory regime considered a moratorium the Annual Energy Statement, DECC published an on offshore deepwater drilling activities in the North assessment of the impact of climate change and energy sea. [89361] polices on energy prices and bills. The headline message for the household sector was Charles Hendry: The review concluded that there that the average household energy bill in 2020 was were a great many positives in the UK offshore regulatory estimated to be around 7% lower than it would have regime including the goal-setting safety regime, rigorously been in the same year if energy and climate change enforced environmental standards and a sophisticated policies were never introduced. This is because the emergency response framework. Based on these assessments, effects of government policies which help households to it concluded that there was not any reason for a moratorium save energy will more than offset the necessary cost of on drilling on the UK continental shelf. investing in new capacity and greater efficiency. The report details the main assumptions and methodology used to carry out the analysis and is Renewable Energy available online at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/aes/ Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for impacts/impacts.aspx Energy and Climate Change how many tonnes of carbon Annex B details the policies which were used in the dioxide were displaced by renewable electricity generation assessment and links to the relevant impact assessments in (a) the UK, (b) England, (c) Scotland and (d) which set out the evidence base which informed the Wales in (i) 2007, (ii) 2008, (iii) 2009, (iv) 2010 and policy costs and savings used. (v) 2011. [89539] 433W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 434W

Charles Hendry: The following table shows the amount about the future of the FITs scheme, including final of carbon dioxide displaced by renewable electricity proposals on PV and consultation proposals on non-PV generation in England, Scotland, Wales and the UK in tariffs. 2007 to 2010. Regardless of the outcome of the appeal, the overall

CO2 displaced by electricity generated from renewable energy projects situation with the feed-in tariffs scheme remains the Thousand tonnes same—the current high tariffs for solar PV are not England Scotland Wales UK sustainable and changes need to be made in order to protect the budget which is funded by consumers through 2007 6,021 5,157 859 12,302 their energy bills. 2008 6,259 5,453 987 13,084 2009 7,099 6,364 954 14,935 Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 8,124 5,611 956 15,175 Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the costs incurred by his Department in lodging an These figures were calculated using the total amount appeal in respect of the feed-in tariff. [89008] of electricity generated by renewable projects in each of the year and country combinations multiplied by an Gregory Barker: I estimate that the Government have estimate of the amount of carbon dioxide emissions per incurred costs of approximately £58,000 to date. In the GWh of electricity supplied for a combination of fossil event that we are successful on appeal we would expect fuels (which is based on the known fossil fuel mix for to recover all, or a substantial proportion, of our costs. electricity generation in the UK in each year). Figures for 2011 have not been provided as the underlying Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs electricity generation data from renewable projects is not yet available. Provisional data for 2011 will be available on 29 March 2012 and final data by 27 September Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012. Energy and Climate Change (1) pursuant to his contribution of 23 November 2011, Official Report, column 372, on solar power: feed-in tariff, what the basis was for his Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for statement that the cost of feed-in tariffs to an average Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on consumer could be £80; [83926] providing priority grid access and dispatch for electricity from renewable energy. [89619] (2) how many solar installations would be required to add (a) £26 and (b) £80 to average consumer bills Charles Hendry: Article 16 of the 2009 renewable by 2020. [83927] energy directive requires that member states provide either priority or guaranteed access to the grid for Gregory Barker: In addition to the impact assessment connected generators of electricity from renewable energy published alongside the FITs consultation, a fuller sources, and priority dispatch for electricity from renewable explanation was provided to the joint Energy and Climate energy sources, subject to requirements relating to the Change Select Committee and Environmental Audit maintenance of the reliability and safety of the grid. Committee hearing on 29 November 2011 and in written evidence to their inquiry in to solar power feed-in We provide guaranteed access in Great Britain through tariffs. The transcript and written evidence are available a market-based approach for all generators connected at: to the grid, including renewables. As regards priority dispatch, we also have a market-based approach where http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a- z/commons-select/environmental-audit-committee/inquiries/ dispatch depends on the generator meeting a market parliament-2010/solar-power-feed-in-tariffs/ price. Where it is necessary to prevent access on occasion in order to ensure the reliability and safety of the grid Barry Gardiner: To ask the Secretary of State for system, our market arrangements determine which Energy and Climate Change if he will estimate the generator reduces its output, and these generators are potential effect on the average annual household energy compensated. Our market-based arrangements tend to bill of maintaining the solar PV feed-in tariff at its promote output from renewable generation as it will current rates until 1 April 2012. [84132] usually be more cost-effective for conventional generation to reduce its output given that it incurs fuel costs when Gregory Barker: I refer the hon. Member to the running. answer given today to the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) to questions 83926 and 83927. Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs Caroline Flint: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many solar photovoltaic Energy and Climate Change if his Department will installations qualifying for the feed-in tariff scheme continue to pay the feed-in tariff at the original rate there were between 31 October 2011 and 12 December until legal proceedings are concluded. [89007] 2011. [89461]

Gregory Barker: The proposals within the Phase I Gregory Barker: The latest monthly published statistics consultation would not lead to a change in tariff until show that between April 2010 and October 2011, the 1 April 2012. On this date, all sites with an eligibility number of solar PV installations (of sub 50kW capacity) date on or after the reference date would see their tariff on the Microgeneration Certificate Scheme database reduce. Following conclusion of the appeal process, (MCS) was 127,474. Of these, 70% (89,297) have been which we expect next week, we will make an announcement confirmed on Ofgem’s central FiT register (CFR). 435W Written Answers12 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 436W

In addition, there were 3,534 solar PV confirmed construction of offshore electricity transmission assets installations on the CFR but not registered on the MCS over the remainder of the comprehensive spending review database at the end of December 2011. Of these, 316 period. installations were confirmed after 31 October 2011. These installations are not registered on the MCS database Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for because the installation capacity is greater than 50kW, Energy and Climate Change what steps his Department so are additional to the MCS numbers. has taken to evaluate the environmental impact of wind The number of solar PV installations registered on the farms which become derelict in the future. [89077] MCS database between 31 October 2011 and 12 December 2011 was 102,183. Charles Hendry: There are mechanisms in place to ensure that wind farms onshore and offshore do not become derelict but are already decommissioned by the Warm Home Discount Scheme developers of those projects when they cease operating. Offshore, there is a statutory decommissioning scheme Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for which allows the Secretary of State to compel wind Energy and Climate Change whether the Independent farm developers to submit costed programmes for the Review of Fuel Poverty considered an extension of the removal of their projects with funds set aside for that Warm Homes Discount data-sharing scheme. [89307] purpose: onshore, developers will work with the relevant local planning authorities to make the necessary Gregory Barker: Professor Hills published his interim arrangements for the removal of wind farms or individual report in October 2011. He is due to present his final turbines and for the land to be restored to an acceptable report to Government in early 2012. It is expected that condition, the costs of which are borne by the developer. as well as a final recommendation on measurement of fuel poverty this final report will include some discussions on the implications for policy-making and delivery of FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE support. I will carry out an assessment of Professor Cooperatives Hills’ recommendations and their policy implications once his final report is available. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps (a) his Department Wind Power and (b) those bodies for which his Department is responsible are taking to mark UN Yearof the Co-operative David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012; and if he will make a statement. [88599] Energy and Climate Change what funding his Department will provide for connecting offshore wind farms to the Mr Bellingham: Government Departments are working national grid in the remainder of the comprehensive with the Cabinet Office (Mutuals Taskforce) to take spending review period. [88875] advantage of opportunities to celebrate the achievements of co-operatives during the UN International Year. The Charles Hendry: The investment required for electricity Foreign and Commonwealth Office has no current plans transmission infrastructure to connect offshore wind to mark the UN Year of the Co-operative 2012. farms to the National Electricity Transmission System South America: Diplomatic Service is made by the private sector. The investment is made either by an Offshore Transmission Owner (OFTO) Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for appointed by Ofgem on the basis of a competitive Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which (a) embassies tender process, or by the wind farm developer where it and (b) other diplomatic posts in South America have chooses to construct the assets itself before transferring been closed in each of the last three years. [89374] them to the OFTO for operation. The Department does not therefore, plan to provide any funding towards the Mr Jeremy Browne: None.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 12 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT ...... 307 TRANSPORT—continued High Speed 2 (Scotland) ...... 311 Transport Spending (North-East) ...... 317 High Speed 2 (Scotland) ...... 313 Winter Salt Stockpiles...... 315 Metal Theft...... 316 Northern Hub Railway ...... 318 Rail Franchises (Scotland) ...... 312 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 324 Road Infrastructure ...... 307 Dieting...... 324 Speed Limits ...... 314 Domestic Violence ...... 328 Speed Limits ...... 318 Tax Credits...... 324 Ticket Office Closures ...... 309 Violence Against Disabled People...... 326 Topical Questions ...... 319 Women in the Economy ...... 327 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 12 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 17WS JUSTICE...... 23WS Further Education Skills Funding...... 17WS Compensation Act 2006...... 23WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 18WS Red Tape Challenge ...... 18WS TRANSPORT ...... 23WS Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles...... 23WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 19WS Sri Lankan Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation TREASURY ...... 17WS Commission Report...... 20WS Anti-avoidance...... 17WS Taxation in Gibraltar (European Court Judgment) ...... 19WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 24WS HEALTH...... 22WS Welfare Reform Bill ...... 24WS Health and Criminal Justice Liaison and Welfare Reform Bill (Third Reading Diversion Programme ...... 22WS Amendments) ...... 25WS PETITION

Thursday 12 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 3P Royal Mail Delivery Office, Kidsgrove, Staffordshire ...... 3P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 12 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 404W CABINET OFFICE...... 423W Apprentices: East Midlands ...... 404W Public Sector: Job Satisfaction ...... 423W Apprentices: Industrial Health and Safety ...... 406W Public Sector: Procurement...... 424W Construction Industry Training Board: Finance .... 406W Departmental Apprentices ...... 406W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 385W Employment Tribunals Service...... 407W Council Tax: Arrears...... 385W Further Education: Higher Education ...... 407W Government Procurement Card ...... 386W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 407W Homelessness: Offenders...... 387W Higher Education: North East ...... 408W Population ...... 388W Insolvency...... 410W Minimum Wage: EU Countries...... 410W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 381W Music: Licensing Laws...... 410W Olympic Games 2012 ...... 381W Qualifications...... 411W Tourism...... 381W Students: Loans ...... 411W TICC Skill Centres: Redundancy...... 411W DEFENCE...... 416W Accommodation ...... 416W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Aircraft Carriers ...... 416W Co-operatives...... 392W Armed Forces: Deployment ...... 416W Departmental Audit...... 392W Armed Forces: Education ...... 417W Detention Centres: Females ...... 392W Armed Forces: Military Decorations ...... 417W Disability: Candidates...... 393W Cyprus: Economic Situation ...... 418W Drugs: Law and Order ...... 394W Departmental Consultants...... 418W Entry Clearances: China ...... 395W Departmental Procurement...... 419W Forensic Science: Law and Order ...... 395W Departmental Secondment ...... 419W Heroin...... 396W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 419W Immigration Controls ...... 396W Departmental Written Questions ...... 420W Immigration: Employment...... 396W Documents: Data Protection...... 420W Olympic Games 2012 : Security...... 396W Ex-servicemen...... 421W Police: Accountability ...... 397W Ex-servicemen: Employment...... 421W Terrorism ...... 398W HMS Queen Elizabeth ...... 421W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 422W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 379W MOD Abbey Wood...... 422W Former Members: Security ...... 379W Parliament’s Education Service...... 379W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 422W Candidates: Leave ...... 422W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 426W House of Lords: Reform...... 422W Co-operatives...... 426W Members: Correspondence ...... 423W Developing Countries: Agriculture ...... 426W Developing Countries: Diarrhoea ...... 427W EDUCATION...... 424W International Citizen Service...... 428W Departmental Manpower...... 424W Somalia: International Co-operation ...... 429W Email ...... 425W Pupils: Assessments...... 425W JUSTICE...... 402W Approved Premises: Females...... 402W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 429W Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Coal Health Compensation Scheme...... 429W Regulations 1992...... 402W Departmental Manpower...... 430W Crime: Victims ...... 403W Departmental Meetings ...... 430W Human Rights: Business ...... 403W Departmental Work Experience...... 430W Legal Opinion...... 404W Energy: Meters...... 430W Energy: Prices ...... 431W TRANSPORT ...... 399W Natural Gas: Prices...... 432W Crossrail...... 400W Offshore Industry...... 432W Crossrail Line: Contracts ...... 400W Renewable Energy...... 432W High Speed 2...... 399W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 433W Insurance Companies...... 400W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 434W Railway Stations: Manpower ...... 401W Warm Home Discount Scheme ...... 435W Railways: Disability ...... 401W Wind Power ...... 435W Speed Limits ...... 400W Stratford International Station...... 402W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 379W TREASURY ...... 388W Birds: Nature Conservation ...... 379W Civil Servants: Pensions ...... 388W Cod: EU Law...... 380W Members: Correspondence ...... 389W Giant Hogweed...... 381W Stamp Duty Land Tax: Tax Avoidance ...... 389W Taxation: Inheritance Tax and Capital Gains Tax.. 389W Taxation: Switzerland ...... 391W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 436W Cooperatives ...... 436W WALES...... 381W South America: Diplomatic Service ...... 436W Departmental Manpower...... 381W Iron and Steel...... 382W HEALTH...... 412W Mass Media ...... 382W Cancer: Health Services ...... 412W General Practitioners: Pharmacy ...... 413W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 398W General Practitioners: Waiting Lists ...... 413W Apprentices...... 399W Health Services: Children...... 413W Business Enterprise ...... 399W Health Services: Coventry...... 414W Child Care...... 398W Health Services: EU Countries...... 415W Domestic Violence ...... 398W Influenza: Vaccination ...... 415W Flexible Working...... 398W Plastic Surgery ...... 416W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 383W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 391W Contracts: General Practitioners...... 383W Borders: Personal Records ...... 391W Remploy: Social Enterprises...... 384W British Nationality ...... 391W Social Security Benefits: Cardiff...... 384W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Thursday 12 January 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 307] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Transport Minister for Women and Equalities

Business of the House [Col. 331] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Backbench Business [un-allotted day] Pub Companies [Col. 351] Motion—(Mr Bailey)—agreed to Parliamentary Representation [Col. 403] Motion—(Dame Anne Begg)—agreed to

Academy Status (Haringey) [Col. 443] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Policing [Col. 151WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 17WS]

Petition [Col. 3P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 379W] [see index inside back page]