Tuesday Volume 660 21 May 2019 No. 304

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 21 May 2019 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2019 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 593 21 MAY 2019 594

to be put in place retrospectively. In the light of all the House of Commons evidence, I am concerned about the wellbeing of those constituents who say that they may face financial ruin. Surely the only responsible thing to do is to pause and Tuesday 21 May 2019 announce a delay and an independent review, given that we know that people have already lost their lives.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Mel Stride: The loan charge is not retrospective. There has never been a time in the history of our country when the arrangements that I described a moment PRAYERS ago were ever compliant with our tax code. Of course, the loans,which there is no intention of ever repaying—they are simply there to avoid national insurance and income [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] tax—persist into the present. Generous “time to pay” arrangements are available with HMRC; I urge anybody who is involved in avoidance of this kind to talk to Oral Answers to Questions HMRC and come to sensible arrangements.

Mr Lewis: Is the Minister not aware that the people TREASURY affected by this charge are strivers and people who are just about managing? They are the people who are The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— suffering as a consequence of this decision. How many Loan Charge times are the Government going to hit ordinary working people, including groups like the Women Against State 1. Dr Paul Williams (Stockton South) (Lab): What Pension Inequality, without Ministers fulfilling their steps he is taking to support people affected by the 2019 responsibilities, intervening in such circumstances and loan charge. [911001] ensuring that common sense prevails? 2. Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD): What representations he has received on the 2019 loan charge; Mel Stride: If we include the loans, the average and if he will make a statement. [911002] earnings of those who have been involved in this egregious tax avoidance is twice our country’s national average 12. Mr Ivan Lewis (Bury South) (Ind): What steps he wage. There is no need for people to get involved in is taking to support people affected by the 2019 loan these schemes, the sole purpose of which is to avoid tax. charge. [911013] Some Members have raised amounts of some £700,000 The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride): or £900,000 that HMRC is pursuing in this context; that Disguised remuneration is an aggressive and contrived would equate to a couple of million pounds going form of tax avoidance that involves a loan, which there through these schemes. I remind the House that these is never any intention of repaying, being routed via a are schemes that take loans from the UK out to an low or no-tax jurisdiction and then back to the United offshore trust in a low or no-tax jurisdiction and route it Kingdom, to avoid income tax and national insurance. back into the UK as a loan that is never due to be Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs takes a measured, repaid, simply for the purpose of avoiding tax. We do proportionate and sympathetic approach to the collection not believe that is right. of this tax, which has always been due. Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): If the Minister is Dr Williams: My constituent contacted me about this right when he says that the loan charge is not retrospective, issue and said that he had no choice in how he was how come we have examples like the situation faced by contracted to work on a BP Norway project. Why is he my constituent, who was pursued with an accelerated being pursued rather than BP Norway and the other payment notice back in 2015, in relation to a loan companies, such as NRL, AML and ICS (Salary) Ltd, charge scheme? He paid the amount that HMRC asked which all work together to undermine workers’ rights him for, but now suddenly, out of the blue, a request has and minimise their own tax liabilities? What action have been sent to a wrong email address that means he will the Government taken against those agencies? probably have to pay more money. Does that not show Mel Stride: I refute the suggestion that anybody is that HMRC has shifted the goalposts and therefore that forced into making a tax-avoidance arrangement. If the loan charge is retrospective? something looks too good to be true, it generally means that it is just that. Of the settlements to date, which have Mel Stride: I entirely stand by my earlier remarks been worth more than £1 billion, some 85% have been about the measures not being in the least retrospective. from employers, not employees, and we are actively Of course, I cannot comment on the tax affairs of the pursuing the promoters of these schemes in exactly the individual that my right hon. Friend has just referred way in which the hon. Gentleman would wish. to; it would not be right or proper of me to do so. Christine Jardine: I understand that the all-party Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con): I group on the loan charge has been sent evidence of the have received increasingly distressed representations from suicide of three people facing the loan charge. More constituents affected by the loan charge. One of their than 100 people in Edinburgh West have been affected concerns is that in making any settlement with HMRC, by the charge. Many of them have come to see me at they risk giving up their right to review in the event of constituency surgeries and are worried about their financial any subsequent change in Government policy. Will the future. They did not understand that this tax was going Minister advise my constituents on what they might do? 595 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 596

They currently feel trapped between that prospect and various schemes through the courts, including the Supreme the risk of further financial penalty from HMRC if Court, and on each occasion, these schemes have been they do not come to an agreement quickly. found not to work.

Mel Stride: I have made it very clear, as have the 22. [911023] Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) Government, over a long period of time—at least since (Lab/Co-op): The Treasury has claimed that the off-payroll 2016 when these measures were first brought into effect, tax should not affect the genuine self-employed, yet which is before I arrived in my current position—that HMRC’s Check Employment Status for Tax tool assessed our policy is our policy and that we will not change that 3,909 contractors across five key public sector bodies policy. For those who have been involved in this form of and the results were that 94% of the contractors were aggressive and contrived tax avoidance,the recommendation deemed to be employers. That clearly demonstrates that is very clear: the best thing to do is to speak to Her the CEST tool is leading to the wrong decisions. Will Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and come to a sensible the Minister now agree to cease the use of the CEST and reasonable arrangement for repayment. tool and to put on hold those plans to roll it out to the private sector? Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): I understand the Minister’s sincere desire to tackle disguised remuneration and thank him for always being available to discuss my Mel Stride: The statement that the hon. Gentleman constituents’ concerns. However, something has clearly has made does not suggest that the CEST tool is gone very wrong with the operation of the loan charge inappropriate. The CEST tool is there to determine an and now, too, I fear with the roll-out of IR35 to the individual’s employment status. In 85% of cases, it private sector. Will the Minister commit please to pause does give a determination. HMRC will stand by that both the loan charge and the roll-out of IR35 to the determination provided the right data was put into the private sector until my constituents’ concerns have been CEST process. fully addressed? Ross Thomson (Aberdeen South) (Con): Following a Mel Stride: IR35 is often raised in the context of the recent case, an individual convicted of benefit fraud loan charge, but it is a completely unrelated matter. was given 900 years to pay off the £88,000 that they had IR35 is about making sure that those who are effectively defrauded from the state, but those facing the loan employed by other businesses are treated as employees charge have not committed any criminal offence or for tax purposes, and that is only right and proper. The broken the law, yet they are being hounded by HMRC loan charge is about putting right the situation of this for unaffordable sums. Can my right hon. Friend please aggressive tax avoidance. advise me on why HMRC is persecuting innocent people to the point that it is affecting their mental and emotional 21. [911022] Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): wellbeing while allowing convicted fraudsters such leeway? Given that nurses and cleaners—the lower-paid—can be adversely affected by this and distinguished from Mel Stride: HMRC is not persecuting people, as my those who are deliberately tax avoiding, will the Minister hon. Friend suggests. It is collecting the tax that is due. not agree at least to extend the payback period rather It is also not pursuing people for criminal activities, as than people having to go through the rigmarole with the he says. However, when it comes to criminality, I can tell tax man? the House that very recently,on 16 May,HMRCannounced that six promoters of these schemes had been arrested Mel Stride: The hon. Gentleman makes a very important on suspicion of loan charge tax fraud. point, which is that, when it comes to paying the money that is due, HMRC has a duty to be proportionate and Peter Dowd (Bootle) (Lab): Those of us on the Labour to make sure that appropriate arrangements are in Benches have repeatedly asked the Government what place. There is no maximum limit for the time over they are doing to clamp down on the enablers of the which repayments can occur—there are often arrangements loan charge and we have repeatedly received feeble that come into place that are well in excess of 10 years. answers showing inertia and inaction, and we have had HMRC will continue to approach these matters on that more of that today.More broadly,why are the Government basis. not doing more to crack down on lawyers, accountants Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): May I and others aiding and abetting tax avoidance under the also thank the Minister for the way that he is engaging guise of legitimate tax planning? on this issue? Although I certainly do agree that anybody who has tried to avoid tax in this way needs to be held Mel Stride: I think the hon. Gentleman probably accountable, I do ask whether it is right that HMRC composed his question before he heard my last answer, can go back 20 years to reopen accounts that were in which I made it clear that we have just recently had accepted. If this tax was due then, why did HMRC not six arrests relating to the suspected fraudulent activity obtain that tax then? Why did it not charge it then? Why around the loan charge. We are also actively pursuing has it taken it 20 years to get to this point? 100 promoters of tax avoidance schemes, including those relating to the loan charge, and have brought in Mel Stride: I have already dealt with the issue of up to £1 million fines for promoters engaged in this retrospection. As to why tax may not have been paid at activity. the time that it was due, there are a multitude of reasons for that not least of which is the fact that many taxpayers Peter Dowd: Six? There are thousands of these wheezes simply do not volunteer the correct information or they going on out there. Let me give the Minister another claim that their scheme works when clearly it does example. Under existing tax compliance and procurement not. HMRC has, over many, many years, pursued these rules, and public contracts regulations, there is provision 597 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 598 for public contracts to be denied to individuals and Mr Speaker: The question is actually about the fiscal organisations that do not comply with tax law, possibly effects of the no recourse to public funds condition. I including these promoters of loan schemes. Can the think I know what the hon. Lady is driving at, but Financial Secretary admit that there is evidence of tax I hope that other people are as aware of the connection avoidance and enabling by organisations winning public as I am. contracts while not one single individual or organisation has been banned from securing those public contracts? Elizabeth Truss: I have to agree, Mr Speaker; I am slightly struggling with the link between fiscal policy Mel Stride: Is not the difference between the Government and the hon. Lady’s question. However, she might be and the Opposition on tax avoidance quite simply that interested to know that in the spending review we are this Government are serious about it, having brought in specifically looking at how we can help women suffering and protected £200 billion since 2010? The tax gap is at domestic violence and how we can take the matter into a near historic low. If it was as high as it was under the account when deciding the future of our public spending. last Labour Government, we would be deprived of sufficient funds to employ every policeman and woman Mr Bob Seely (Isle of Wight) (Con): It was great to in England and Wales. This Government are serious see the Minister on the Isle of Wight the week before about avoidance and evasion, and we have a record of last, although I am sad to say that there are not too which to be proud. many double entendres on her social media. She will be aware that I have written her a letter, asking her to Local Authority Budgets ensure that the Isle of Wight becomes a pilot scheme in order for us to look at how we can better integrate Government services in the One Public Estate programme. 3. Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the Elizabeth Truss: It was certainly a weekend to remember fiscal effect of the no recourse to public funds condition on the Isle of Wight. It was my first ever visit to that on local authority budgets. [911003] great place, and I was impressed. The Isle of Wight provides a good opportunity to look at how we can do The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Elizabeth Truss): things differently, including how we can integrate services I have regular discussions with the Home Secretary and to cut down on bureaucracy and put more money on the Local Government Secretary about their budgets the frontline. and how they are best managed. Mr Speaker: I am sure that the people of the Isle of Andy Slaughter: Will the Minister at least acknowledge Wight were most gratified that the right hon. Lady was that there is a problem? London boroughs are spending among their number, even if only for a relatively short about £50 million a year—which they have to spend, period. but usually under the Children Act 1989—on families in extremis with no recourse to public funds. Will she NHS Pension Scheme acknowledge that that is the case and look at how local authorities are funded? 4. Paul Masterton (East Renfrewshire) (Con): What assessment his Department has made of the effect of Elizabeth Truss: The hon. Gentleman will be well the annual tapered allowance on members of the NHS aware that the spending review is coming up. If there is pension fund. [911004] a specific issue with London local authorities or other local authorities, I would expect that issue to be raised 5. Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): What assessment by the Local Government Secretary, and I encourage the Government have made of the effect of the annual the hon. Gentleman to meet him to discuss the issue. tapered allowance on the (a) recruitment and (b) retention of doctors in (i) hospitals, (ii) primary care and (iii) the Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): One specific armed forces. [911005] issue in relation to the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham is the reopening of Hammersmith bridge. 6. David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): What recent It is about time that the council got on with repairing discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues on the and reopening the bridge. The council has a very good NHS pension scheme tapered annual allowance. financial settlement. Will the Chief Secretary join me in [911006] knocking heads together between the council and Sadiq Khan’s Transport for London to get the bridge open? The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Philip Hammond): The NHS pension scheme and other public service Elizabeth Truss: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s schemes are among the most generous pension schemes efforts to build bridges across London and to improve available in this country today. The tapered annual London’s infrastructure. The London mayoral elections allowance is focused on the highest-earning pension are coming up, and I suggest that people vote for savers to ensure that the tax relief that they receive is somebody who is going to make change happen much not disproportionate to that of other savers. However, I quicker. do accept that there is some evidence that the annual allowance charge is having an impact on the retention Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): of high-earning clinicians in the NHS. I am in discussion Will the Minister commit to ensuring that survivors of with my right hon. Friend the Health Secretary about domestic abuse with insecure immigration status have how to provide additional pension flexibility for NHS safe and confidential reporting systems, without fear of doctors affected by the annual allowance tax charge, and being returned to their country of origin? he will make an announcement as soon as possible. 599 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 600

Paul Masterton: I am grateful to the Chancellor for experienced surgeons are leaving the NHS due to the that answer, and particularly to the Government for problems with the pension. I just wondered how accepting that the taper contributes to capacity gaps representations would have been made to the Treasury and retention issues in the NHS. Given that the costs of on behalf of consultant groups. increased waiting times, delayed diagnosis and knowledge gaps far outweigh the tax revenue generated, would not Mr Hammond: The British Medical Association has the sensible and fiscally responsible thing be just to been vocal, I think is probably the right word, in making scrap the taper altogether? the case around the disincentive effect of annual allowance charges, in particular, but also lifetime allowance charges. Mr Hammond: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. The Health Secretary and I have been discussing this for However, the overall reforms to pensions allowances some time, and I think we are close to reaching a that were made in the previous two Parliaments and conclusion. include the tapered annual allowance are necessary to deliver a fair system and to protect the public finances. These measures affect only the highest-earning pension Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Change UK): The savers and are expected to raise £6 billion a year. But, as workforce shortfall is the greatest challenge facing the I said, we are monitoring the response of high earners NHS. What discussions has the Chancellor had with in the NHS, and I expect that my right hon. Friend the the Health Secretary about the combined impact of Health Secretary will be able to make an announcement these changes together with the disastrous consequences soon. for the NHS workforce that would follow a no-deal or WTO Brexit? Ruth Jones: A number of hospital consultants who live in my constituency have written to me to express Mr Hammond: As the hon. Lady says, recruitment their concern at the implications of the tapered annual and retention is one of the big challenges facing the allowance. With GP numbers continuing to fall, ongoing NHS. Clearly, anything that were to impede the NHS’s shortages across consultant specialties and armed forces access to overseas workers coming into the UK to serve doctors currently experiencing a 23% workforce shortfall, in our health service would have an impact on that. But how is the Chancellor going to help doctors and patients I have also recognised and acknowledged today that the by resolving the unintended consequences caused by operation of the pension annual allowance charge does the annual tapered allowance and lifetime annual allowance have a significant effect—particularly,it seems, on partners that are leading to doctors who would otherwise be in GP practices. happily continuing to work having to leave the profession to avoid disproportionate and unfair tax bills? Child Poverty Mr Hammond: I think I have answered that question, but it is good to hear Labour MPs focusing on the 7. Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab): disincentive effect of high taxation, particularly on What fiscal steps he is taking to tackle child poverty. professionals in our public services. Someone has to be earning £150,000 a year before the tapered annual allowance [911007] affects them. I would suggest that perhaps Labour Members who do understand the detrimental effect of The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): very high marginal tax rates on professionals in our The Government take child poverty extremely seriously public services make those representations to their right and are committed to ensuring that all children have the hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor, who is intending to best life chances. The Government believe that moving raise tax for everybody earning more than £80,000 a into work and progressing in work is the best and most year. sustainable route out of child poverty, and we have reformed the welfare system to ensure that work pays David Linden: One of the constituents I have in and working families can keep more of what they earn. Barrachnie is a consultant who has told me that there are concerns about recruitment and retention. Given Mrs Lewell-Buck: I despair at that predictable answer. that a recent survey shows that 40% of doctors have There are 1.7 million children in destitution. Reports of retired early as a result of pension tax changes, I would children arriving at school hungry, scouring bins and urge the Chancellor to look again at this and make as stealing food from dinner halls are commonplace. Child strong a case as possible to the Health Secretary so that poverty has risen by over half a million since 2010. he can make sure that we have the staff in the NHS to Yesterday the UN rapporteur on extreme poverty was serve our communities. joined by Human Rights Watch in making it very clear that this Government’s relentless austerity measures Mr Hammond: As I have already said, both the and cruel welfare reforms are to blame for growing Treasury and the Health Department wish to address levels of hunger and poverty. Does the Minister agree this problem. We have to find a mechanism that does it with those internationally respected organisations? in a way that is fair and appropriate. The right way to do it is through increasing flexibilities within the NHS and, potentially, other public sector schemes. My right John Glen: No, I do not. I do recognise the diverse hon. Friend the Health Secretary will make an needs across this country. When I served with the hon. announcement as soon as possible. Lady on the all-party parliamentary group on hunger and food poverty and visited South Shields,I acknowledged Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): Yesterday I met that there are significant challenges. That is why I am representatives of Alliance Health Group who were very pleased to see that the employment rate in her making representations because a number of very constituency is up 20% since 2010. 601 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 602

Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): I wonder whether Faced with this child poverty double-whammy, does the the Minister and the Chancellor have had a chance to Minister agree that it is no surprise that the Tories are read the west midlands local industrial strategy, drawn set for an absolute drubbing on Thursday? up by the Business Secretary and the Mayor of the West Midlands, Andy Street. Is the Minister aware that youth John Glen: I listen to the Office for Budget Responsibility, unemployment has reduced by some 50% over the last which is forecasting sustained real-wage growth for few years in the west midlands? Is that not a way to take every one of the next five years. The latest statistics children out of poverty? capture household income up to April 2018, but since then we have had a year of real-wage growth. John Glen: It is well known that Andy Street has done a phenomenal amount to invest in the right sort of Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): infrastructure and transform the life chances of many Child poverty has now reached such an unconscionable people across his region, and he deserves credit across level that Members are right to highlight that, this the House for what he has achieved. week, the Government were condemned by Human Rights Watch for pursuing what it called “cruel and Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): While harmful policies”. Whether or not the Government there are only 300 people registered as unemployed in accept that, the reality is that 4 million British children my constituency, there are nearly 2,500 children living now live in poverty, that that figure has grown by below the poverty line, which tells us that living in a 500,000 in the last five years and that the majority of workless household is not the principal or only cause of those children have parents who are in work. Let me ask poverty; low wages are also a cause. Will the Chancellor the Government: if they do not accept that Conservative urgently review the living wage, so that it actually becomes policies are creating this crisis, what do Ministers believe a living wage, rather than giving it an inaccurate label is responsible for this humanitarian disaster? intended only to ease the consciences of the comfortable? John Glen: What is important is that this Government John Glen: The national living wage has gone up to continue to focus on creating jobs, and allowing families £8.21 an hour. The Government’s aspiration is to allow to experience the value of such a job and receiving more it to rise to 60% of median earnings. It is important to money in their household take-home pay, and that is acknowledge that in 2010 take-home pay was £9,200 after what we will continue to focus on. national insurance and tax. For someone working full time on the national living wage, that figure is now Supporting the High Street £4,500 more, at £13,700. 8. Mr Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): What fiscal steps Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con): Investing in education he is taking to support the high street. [911009] and skills is a positive, proactive means of promoting aspiration and ensuring that the families of the future The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Philip Hammond): are in working households, not in poverty. To that end, High streets are at the heart of our communities, and what discussions are being had between Ministers in the they serve a social as well as an economic purpose. To Treasury and elsewhere in Government about education support them, at Budget 2018 I cut business rates for funding and investment in skills and training? small and medium-sized retail premises operated by independent retailers by a third for two years from John Glen: Conversations are going on among April 2019, saving businesses over £1 billion. We have Treasury Ministers. The Chief Secretary has heard that also set up a £675 million future high streets fund. representation, and announcements will be made in the autumn Budget. Mr Dunne: I very much welcome those measures in last year’s Budget, but for this coming comprehensive Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP): In evidence spending review, will my right hon. Friend consider to the Work and Pensions Committee, the Child Poverty offering occupiers of listed premises in town centres Action Group said of the two-child cap: with freehold or full repairing lease obligations a VAT “You could not design a better policy to increase child poverty exemption on repairs and maintenance of those premises, than this one”. which is a cost they have to bear but their online competitors and other retailers outside high streets do Will the Minister use the spending review to ditch that not? policy? Mr Hammond: I have to say to my right hon. Friend John Glen: We spend £95 billion on working-age that, under EU law, we cannot introduce a reduced rate benefits,hardship payments,benefit advances and budgeting of VAT that is limited to repairs, maintenance and loans. Obviously all matters are under review in the renovation of listed buildings. In any case, VAT incurred context of spending decisions, which will be made clear on their properties by VAT-registered businesses may be in the autumn Budget. recoverable from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, subject to the normal VAT recovery rules. However, the Kirsty Blackman: That is not good enough. Analysis good news is that we remain committed to supporting by Cambridge Econometrics states: our high streets, and on Saturday we announced a “In all of the Brexit scenarios, real wages for low-pay workers £62 million fund to breathe new life into historic buildings are depressed due to increases in prices and reduced levels of on heritage high streets, which I hope will go some way productivity, due to skills shortages and lower industry investment.” to helping. 603 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 604

Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): Does the The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Elizabeth Truss): Chancellor agree with me that companies such as We have a proud record as a nation, reducing carbon St Modwen that buy up town centres such as Kirkby in emissions faster than any other G7 country since 2000. my constituency do nothing with them—in fact, they We have done that with a combination of spending leave them to rot—and then simply sell them on to a measures and market mechanisms. pension fund? Is that the way we want to run the future of our town centres, and has he not got anything more Tom Brake: The Liberal Democrats were the first imaginative that can be done about it? major political party to call for a zero-carbon Britain. We believe that target must be met by 2045. What Mr Hammond: The £675 million fund that I mentioned assessment have the Government made of the climate is specifically intended to allow local authorities to change mitigation costs that would be incurred by 2045, develop plans for responding to the transformation of of the support that would be needed for businesses to the high street that is coming. Retailing is changing, and help them achieve a zero-carbon Britain by 2045, and of high streets have to change to reflect that. We cannot the health and environmental benefits? hold that tide back, but we can help to support the transition. Elizabeth Truss: We are currently assessing the report of the Climate Change Committee on this subject. No Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Boots the doubt the right hon. Gentleman is a regular reader of Chemist, one of the most popular high street stores, the Treasury Green Book on the way we assess investments. says that just 22 of its 2,400 stores qualify for the Last year,in the new Green Book, we specifically included Chancellor’sexcellent business rates reduction scheme—not looking at natural capital as a way of making that because of anything the Chancellor has done, but because assessment. That is one of the lenses through which we of EU state aid rules. What can the Chancellor do to shall be looking at the spending review. assist and to get around those rules? 19. [911020] Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Climate Mr Hammond: I am a little mystified by this story change is increasing the risk of flooding, and despite about Boots, which I too read in the newspapers. When devastating floods in my constituency in 2015, the I announced the policy, I said that it was designed Government have not yet committed funding for the to help small independent retailers, and Boots, with one-in-200-year scheme that the Chief Secretary knows 22,000 providers, does not fall within my definition of a is needed to protect businesses in Kirkstall in my small independent retailer. We always understood that constituency. The gap now is just £23 million, so will the this policy initiative was designed to support small Government make it a priority in the comprehensive independent retailers as they transition to the high spending review, even if that spending review is just for street of the future. one year? Elizabeth Truss: I agree with the hon. Lady that Mr Speaker: I call Anneliese Dodds. [Interruption.] Leeds does need flood protection. I remember visiting No? I had the distinct impression that the hon. Lady with her a few years ago to see the scheme. We have wished to come in on this question, but it is not obligatory. already achieved phase 1 with the £32 million for that, and the Government are putting forward £65 million Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): On the for phase 2. My understanding is that Leeds City Council next one I believe, Mr Speaker; I am terribly sorry. is keen to work with us on that, and we are keen to make progress. Mr Speaker: On Mr Brake’s question—oh, very well. We do not want unwelcome contributors. The hon. Mr Speaker: Anneliese Dodds. Lady can choose her own destiny, and we are grateful to her. Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): Thank you, Mr Speaker; take two. The Environment Secretary Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Last Friday, I met said to Extinction Rebellion that he, at least, had got members of the Chamber of Trade at Newtownards. the message, but of course days later his Government Of three small shops in the town of Ards, one started were panned by the Solar Trade Association for new tax off employing 10 and now employs 60, one started off changes that will affect solar and storage schemes. That employing six and now employs 30, and one started contrasts with Labour’s announcement last week of off employing 20 and now employs almost 100. Would plans for 1.75 million households to benefit from the the Chancellor consider rates reduction for those high solar energy revolution. So will this Government abandon street shops that increase employment? the damaging changes to VAT, match Labour’s solar investment plans and actually start taking renewables Mr Hammond: As far as I am aware, rates is a seriously? devolved matter in Northern Ireland; it is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, which I very much hope Elizabeth Truss: As I said, we have an exemplary will be back in operation very soon. record in terms of our reduction of carbon. We are the top performer in the G7. It would be good to hear Climate Change Opposition Members acknowledge the massive progress that we have made. The fact is that we are going to make 9. Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): more progress not by supporting a bunch of anti-capitalists What discussions he has had with Cabinet colleagues that glue themselves to public transport, but by using on the adequacy of Government funding to mitigate market mechanisms instead, helping the economy grow. climate change. [911010] That is the way we improve the environment. 605 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 606

Fuel Duty Freeze pounds in this area. If we want to tackle the challenge of decarbonisation, we will need to gather the greatest 10. Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab): What assessment amount of private investment and innovation from the the Government have made of the environmental effect private sector. We will never be able to do that by going of freezing fuel duty since 2010. [911011] around nationalising industries below market value and making bellicose statements that shareholders are lining The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Robert Jenrick): their pockets.The shareholders are the savers,the pensioners The price of fuel has only a marginal effect on how and the international investors that this country needs much fuel people purchase. That means that fuel duty to thrive. freezes have a limited effect on emissions. Fuel costs, however, are a major expenditure for both households Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May I urge the Minister and businesses, which is why this Government have to reject the representations from the Labour party for a chosen to freeze fuel duty for nine successive years. £9 billion tax rise on hard-working motorists? Does he not agree that rather than sandbagging hard-working Daniel Zeichner: That is not the view of most people people, it would be better to invest in more electric who actually know about these things. This Government charging infrastructure to give people a real choice? have gone from climate emergency to climate complacency in just three weeks. There is 4% extra traffic on the Robert Jenrick: My hon. Friend is absolutely right roads because of the scrapping of the fuel duty escalator. and that is what the Government are doing: investing in What fiscal mechanisms is the Treasury contemplating ultra-low emission vehicles; increasing the capital allowances to deal with climate change? budget, now extended to 2023, for EV charge points; announcing a £400 million fund to get private sector Robert Jenrick: I take it from the hon. Gentleman investment in getting those charge points rolled out that he supports increasing fuel duty. He asks who has across the country; and, through the plug-in car grant, that opinion. Actually, most economists agree that fuel giving generous subsidies to help people to buy their consumption is highly price-inelastic, because working first electric vehicle. people do not always have the choice to use public transport or cycle. Not everybody lives in a city like Business Rates Relief: Music Venues Cambridge, with excellent public transport. We support the working men and women of this country, particularly 11. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): What in towns and rural areas, and we have saved them assessment he has made of the potential merits of £1,000 a year on their fuel bills. extending business rates relief to more music venues. Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con): I declare my role as [911012] vice-chair of the all-party group for fair fuel. As the The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride): Minister outlines, it is the Conservative party that has We announced in the Budget that we were reducing frozen fuel for nine consecutive years. Since 2010, my business rates for small retailers and others by one constituents and people across the country have saved third. Music venues are not specifically included, although £1,000. As he mentions, the Opposition parties suggest local authorities may make some judgments around that that was an ill-judged decision. Does he agree with that. We, of course, keep all tax reliefs and taxes under me that it is this Government and this party who are on review. the side of motorists and hard-working people? Robert Jenrick: Absolutely. This Government will Christian Matheson: The music sector contributes always support working people. We want to raise living billions to the economy and so much more in terms of standards. We are particularly conscious of those men life enrichment, but the opportunity pipeline is being and women who work in parts of the country, like the constricted as music venues close under pressure. Will area my hon. Friend represents, where it is not easy to the Minister agree to just a small tweak to the retail get to work. They need that extra money in their discount scheme guidance to make it clear that music pockets to get on, do their jobs and run their businesses. venues are eligible? Several hon. Members rose— Mel Stride: Music venues are eligible for many of the reliefs, worth £13 billion over the coming years, we have Mr Speaker: I have been saving the hon. Gentleman introduced since 2016, as well as the switch from uprating up for the delectation of the House: Mr Barry Sheerman. the multiplier from RPI to CPI. Many benefit from small business rates relief as well. I will of course, as Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): That with all representations, take the hon. Gentleman’s was a very, very complacent answer to a very important comments on board and consider them going forward. question. Is it not a fact that the house is on fire? We want a radical tax like the one Mrs Thatcher introduced Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Not all of the with Geoffrey Howe in 1981. Why do we not have a tax small private hotels and guest houses in Cleethorpes are on banks, Amazon and all the other people making noted as music venues, but they would benefit from profits, and put the money into fighting climate change additional relief to their business rates. They are finding now, when the house is on fire? trading particularly difficult at the moment. Would the Minister look sympathetically on representations from Robert Jenrick: We on the Government Benches are them? not complacent about climate change; we are leading the world in this area. We are decarbonising faster than Mel Stride: In short, yes. I always look sympathetically any other G20 country and we are investing billions of on any representations to reduce taxation. 607 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 608

Mr Speaker: What an agreeable and benevolent fellow Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Is not the Minister is. We are deeply obliged to him. the greatest threat of uncertainty to the Scottish economy the prospect of a second independence referendum? Leaving the EU: Scotland John Glen: Absolutely. Another divisive referendum 13. Stephen Gethins (North East Fife) (SNP): What within 18 months would be completely contrary to what recent assessment he has made of the economic effect the First Minister said five years ago, which was that it on Scotland of the UK leaving the EU. [911014] was a “once in a generation” event. It would absolutely be a real crisis for Scotland. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): The Government published a detailed set of economic Income Tax analyses on the long-term impacts of EU exit on the UK economy—its sectors, nations and regions, and the public finances—covering multiple EU exit scenarios. 14. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) The analysis shows that the spectrum of outcomes for (Con): What progress he has made on reducing income the future UK-EU relationship would deliver significantly tax. [911015] higher economic output than in a no-deal scenario in all nations, including Scotland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Philip Hammond): The Government are proud of their record of reducing Stephen Gethins: The Minister is right to highlight income taxes to enable people to keep more of what those analyses, which show that every single Brexit will they earn. We have increased the personal allowance by be damaging to our economy and will hit public services. over 90% in less than a decade. We have given 32 million Coming after a decade of Tory austerity, will he rule out people an income tax cut compared with 2015-16, and a no-deal Brexit and use the comprehensive spending thanks to the changes that I made at the last Budget, a review to start investing in our public services? typical basic rate taxpayer will pay £130 less income tax this year than last year. John Glen: Clearly, the best way of avoiding a no-deal Brexit is to look favourably on what the Prime Minister Daniel Kawczynski: I thank the Chancellor for that brings back to the House of Commons in the week answer, and I thank him and his team for getting to commencing 3 June. grips with the extraordinary annual structural deficit inherited from the Labour party. Bearing that in mind, 16. [911017] Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) and given that we are now on a course towards a (SNP): Brexit uncertainty is hurting firms across balanced budget, will he focus with laser-like precision Scotland and the Bank of England has said that the on continuing to reduce income tax for hard-working Prime Minister’s deal could cut GDP by 3%. Does the families, putting clear blue water between us and the Chancellor agree with himself, when he told Radio 4 in socialists in the run-up to the next election? November last year that the deal will leave the economy “slightly smaller” and that in pure economic Mr Hammond: My hon. Friend is absolutely right to terms, there will be a loss? focus on the much improved state of the public finances and the direct link between that and our ability to John Glen: I will tell the hon. Lady what is causing consider further tax cuts. What I said at the spring great concern and instability in the sector that I am statement remains the case: for the first time in a responsible for—life insurance and the pensions industry, decade, this country now has choices—we have headroom which is thriving in Glasgow and Edinburgh—and that because of the improved state of the public finances. We is the fear of the SNP leadership introducing a new can choose to use that to support additional spending currency. on public services, or we can choose to reduce the deficit more quickly. We can choose to invest in Britain’s 20. [911021] Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): future, or we can choose to cut taxes on ordinary From all the modelling and analysis that the Treasury working families. The luxury of choice is something has done in its economic forecasting, will the Minister that this country has not seen for a decade. tell us in what year he would expect the United Kingdom economy to perform better under a Brexit scenario than Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): I think there under a remain scenario? must be an election coming up, because the right hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Dominic Raab) is on John Glen: The result of the referendum was clear in the front page of The Daily Telegraph today saying that 2016 across the United Kingdom, and we need to get on we should “Cut income tax for a ‘fairer’ Britain”. We do and deliver it. need a fairer Britain, because we have the highest level of inequality in Europe. The so-called living wage does Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Minister not solve inequality, according to the Institute for Fiscal did not quite answer the question from the hon. Member Studies and the House of Commons Library briefing of for North East Fife (Stephen Gethins). Is the Government’s yesterday, so when it comes to the choices that the default position still that on 31 October, we will leave on Chancellor is going to make, what is his choice in a no-deal basis if no agreement has been made? tackling inequality in Britain?

John Glen: That is the legal default, but as my hon. Mr Hammond: I am afraid I do not agree with the Friend will know, the Government hope, even at this hon. Lady about the national living wage. We have set late hour, to persuade him of the merits of passing the out an ambition for it to reach 60% of median earnings deal in the week of 3 June. by next year, which we will achieve. As I said in the 609 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 610 spring statement, we now need to give a new mandate to The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Elizabeth Truss): the Low Pay Commission for the future trajectory of I had a very useful meeting with the hon. Lady a month the national living wage, and I want us to be ambitious or so ago, and we are now taking forward the work and in doing that, but I do not want us to price low-skilled evidence she presented us with and working with the people out of work. That is why I have started a series Home Office on looking at the economic benefits of of roundtables, the first of which was the week before taking more action to help survivors of child sexual last, with representatives from industry and the trade abuse. It is a priority for the spending review to make unions to decide what our strategy will be to increase sure we deal with violence against women and girls. the national living wage in this country. T2. [911027] Mr Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): The Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): How many people Government have an excellent track record in tackling in the west midlands are benefiting from recent increases climate change,notwithstanding what Opposition Members to the personal allowance and the higher-rate threshold? said earlier, and I applaud their commitment to doing more. Will the Chancellor consider introducing incentives Mr Hammond: The answer is lots. Had I known my in the comprehensive spending review to encourage hon. Friend was going to ask me that, I would have occupiers and owners of industrial and agricultural been able to give him a precise answer. I will write to buildings to improve their energy efficiency? him. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Robert Jenrick): Mr Speaker: Put a copy of the answer in the Library The clean growth strategy set out our ambition to of the House—we will all find it most informative. enable businesses and industry to improve energy efficiency by 20% by 2030. Today farmers in a community such as Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): Ludlow can make use of the rural development programme My party has advocated the raising of the personal for agricultural buildings, but we have also announced allowance, and I am glad that the Chancellor has done two new schemes.First, there is the £315 million investment that over the past few years, but does he agree that part in a new industrial energy transformation fund, and of the problem now is that part-time and full-time secondly, we have published a call for evidence on a employees on low pay, just below the threshold of business energy efficiency scheme focused on smaller £12,500, pay national insurance contributions? Will he businesses. consider eliminating that to the same level as the allowance? John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): The Mr Hammond: We always have to find the most Chancellor’s speech to the CBI this evening has been cost-effective way to deliver the effect we are looking much trailed. I welcome his clear warnings to his for. We have chosen so far to do that by raising the Conservative colleagues about the hit the economy would personal allowance thresholds, but the hon. Gentleman face from a no-deal Brexit, especially those who have makes a perfectly legitimate argument for a different said there is nothing to fear from a no deal. For the approach in the future. As I have said, we will have benefit of Members in the Chamber, will he explain choices as a result of the much improved state of the what he sees as the impact of a no-deal Brexit and his public finances. clear view that with “all the preparation in the world” Topical Questions a no-deal Brexit will still damage our economy? T1. [911026] Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. Mr Philip Hammond: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman: I may not have to take the trouble to go and The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr Philip Hammond): deliver the speech this evening. My principal focus is to ensure the continued resilience The right hon. Gentleman has raised a serious point. of the UK economy at a time of domestic and international There are two separate effects of a no-deal Brexit that economic uncertainty. By maintaining our balanced concern me.First, there will clearly be short-term disruption, approach to the public finances and continuing to focus which will have an unpredictable and potentially significant on investment and cutting taxes for working families, effect on our economy. Secondly, and probably more we have ensured that public debt is now falling sustainably, importantly, all the analysis that the Government and employment is at a record high, wages are rising and external commentators have published shows that there Britain’s economy is forecast to grow more than three will be a longer-term effect, meaning that our economy times as fast as Germany’s this year. will be smaller than it would otherwise have been. I did not come into politics to make our economy smaller; I Sarah Champion: The report by the all-party group came into politics to make our economy bigger, and to on adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse demonstrated make our people better off. the economic impact of not supporting victims: 72% said it had had a negative impact on their career; 65% on John McDonnell: I shall be happy to deliver the their education; and 46% on their financial situation. Chancellor’s speech this evening. Any time! The Chief Secretary to the Treasury said about survivors The reality is that for many the Brexit vote was, and that may well be again, a kick at the establishment: an “it should be government’s responsibility to prioritise support for establishment that has inflicted nine years of harsh these people”. austerity on them, and which many feel has ignored Will the Chancellor prioritise support for these services them. As has been revealed this week, that austerity in the spending review? programme has meant children going to school hungry, 611 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 612 without warm clothes or dry shoes, and single mothers stand up for those employees, and do whatever he can with no food in their cupboards skipping meals so that to help Departments bring outsourced contracts back their children can eat. Does the Chancellor even in-house? acknowledge the role that his austerity politics have played in delivering the Brexit vote? Mr Hammond: That is a matter for the Departments concerned. As the hon. Lady knows, there is a legal Mr Hammond: I think the reasons behind the Brexit obligation to pay the national living wage, and we have vote are complex, and it would be trite to stand here put additional resources into ensuring that that obligation and try to identify them simplistically. Let me also is enforced. We encourage employers to pay higher rates remind the right hon. Gentleman of the contribution than the national living wage when they are able to, and that his party’s Government made to the situation that we will continue to do so. we inherited, which caused us to have to make the tough decisions to which he has implicitly referred. Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): When Sally Masterton discovered a £1 billion fraud at Lloyds Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) Bank the bank discredited her, constructively dismissed (Con): Ten days ago, I met heads and chairs of governors her and prevented her from working with the police from across my constituency at Corfe Hill School. Will investigation. Five years later Lloyds apologised for her the Chief Secretary to the Treasury meet me to discuss mistreatment but nobody at the bank has been formally their specific concerns about schools funding, and the investigated or sanctioned for this mistreatment. Will need for additional funding for our schools in Poole the Minister use his powers to instruct the Financial and in Dorset as a whole? Conduct Authority to carry out that investigation?

Elizabeth Truss: I would be delighted to meet my The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): hon. Friend. Weare looking at schools funding, alongside As my hon. Friend knows, the FCA is conducting two other funding, as part of the spending review. It is a investigations into the events at HBOS Reading and public priority, and we are taking it very seriously. Lloyds has instructed Linda Dobbs to look into who knew what when. It is absolutely clear now that such circumstances could not be repeated given the action we T3. [911028] Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): We are the last generation that can act to prevent have taken with the senior managers regime, but I look irreversible harm from being done to our planet, so we forward to the outcome of those reviews and we will be need to act with urgency. Will the Chancellor bring taking action accordingly. forward the tax on the use of virgin plastic to boost recycling and incentivise plastic-free options? We do not T5. [911030] Emma Dent Coad (Kensington) (Lab): have three years to wait. According to the Sunday Times rich list the 10 wealthiest people in the country have a combined wealth of £143 billion; half of them live in my constituency. Robert Jenrick: I am proud that this country will be Meanwhile, according to the Child Poverty Action Group, the first in the world to introduce a new, innovative across Kensington and Chelsea 8,500 children—37%—live plastic packaging tax. Weare in the process of formulating in poverty, and in one ward nearly half do. Inequality in the tax. We have finished the consultation, and have my constituency is getting worse. When will the Chancellor received a large number of responses. Wewill be presenting reverse this trickle-up economy by chasing tax-dodging proposals in the forthcoming Budget. plutocrats who are stealing food from the mouths of our children, many of them from working poor families? Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend the Chancellor consider changing the method of Mr Philip Hammond: We are chasing tax dodgers assessing a property’s rateable value, so that all shops everywhere. [Interruption.] Yes, we are. We have raised on the high street pay business rates that reflect their £200 billion of additional revenue since 2010 by clamping profitability and trading potential, putting them on a down on tax avoidance and evasion. Yet what did I hear level playing field with their out-of-town and online when I came into the Chamber today? I heard Labour competitors? Member after Labour Member challenging my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury Mr Philip Hammond: I understand my hon. Friend’s about the loan charge, a clear attempt to deal with a wish to ensure the vibrancy of the high street, which is piece of egregious tax avoidance which Opposition going through a very difficult period. Owing to the way Members seem to have a totally different view about. in which the business rate system works, relieving the burden on any part of the system means imposing it Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con): If we want more somewhere else, so we would have to look carefully at renewables and more electric cars we need a more that, but I will take my hon. Friend’s representation as a resilient electricity grid, and that needs more investment. serious proposal and consider it. Does my right hon. Friend agree that the last thing we need for a cleaner, greener Britain is for the Labour T4.[911029]MaryGlindon(NorthTyneside)(Lab):Out- party to wipe billions of pounds off our National sourced low-paid workers in both the Foreign and Grid’s investment capacity? Commonwealth Office and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy are on strike because Mr Speaker: What we want is a brief sentence on the their employers, Interserve, ISS and Aramark, are refusing Government’s policy. We are not having dilations on the to pay the London living wage, and in some cases have policies of other parties; that is not the purpose of not paid staff wages for weeks. Will the Chancellor Question Time. 613 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 614

Elizabeth Truss: I think the idea that an industry Mr Philip Hammond: My right hon. Friend raises an could be nationalised not at market value is completely interesting question, and I will look carefully at the wrong; that is fundamentally against the principle of taxation of the national lottery and any future lotteries. property rights on which our entire economy is built. Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): Anti-idling rules are a T6. [911031] Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab): good start in reducing air pollution, but local authorities The Government’s Social Mobility Commission recently need the legal powers and resources to enforce them. stated that social mobility in the UK has stagnated over Would the Treasury consider making new money available the last four years. One of its key recommendations is to local authorities to stop cars idling? that the Government should significantly increase funding for further education in the upcoming spending review. Robert Jenrick: The Government have committed Given that Bradford College plans to cut 131 of its £3.5 billion to improving air quality for the entire staff, will the Chancellor listen to his Government’s own population, and I understand that that involves Bath commission, boost FE funding and give the most and North East Somerset Council receiving nearly disadvantaged students the opportunities they deserve? £6.5 million. I understand that the council is also expected to bid for part of the £220 million clean air fund, and I Elizabeth Truss: I am working very closely with the wish it luck with its application. Department for Education, looking at the FE sector and at the new qualifications we are introducing, such Rebecca Pow (Taunton Deane) (Con): I am pleased as T-levels, and making sure the sector is sustainable in to hear that education is going to get a special focus in the future. We are also reforming it to deliver the best the forthcoming spending review. Please can Somerset possible outcome for students. have special consideration, since pupils there get way below the national average in both secondary and primary Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) school funding? With a sound economy, I am sure that (Con): What estimate has my right hon. Friend made of we can sort this out. the effect on national debt of nationalising the National Grid and the effect it would have on the taxes paid by Elizabeth Truss: I was pleased to have the opportunity ordinary working people and the public services they to meet my hon. Friend to discuss this issue. The reality receive in my constituency? is that there is a big gap in funding, with the lowest-funded authorities getting approximately £4,300 per pupil and Mr Philip Hammond: We know that the cumulative the top-funded authorities getting £6,800. We are looking burden of the commitments made by the Opposition at that, because we have to have fairness across the Front Bench would reach almost £1 trillion over a country. Parliament, and I have heard—[Interruption.] If the shadow Chancellor has a number, no doubt we will hear Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): Revenue funding about it in a moment; I have heard him say that it does continues to flow to oil refineries in the middle east at not matter because these companies are profitable, so the expense of tidal technology, an area in which we are the profits will pay the additional interest costs. But let a world leader. When will this Government accept that me tell my hon. Friend the Member for Sleaford and investing in tidal energy would bring huge benefits to North Hykeham (Dr Johnson) something: I remember the whole economy? the last time we had widespread nationalisation in this country and—do you know what?—none of the companies Robert Jenrick: This Government are investing in the Government owned was profitable. Funny that, isn’t innovation in the tidal and marine sector. For example, it? we have invested in the marine innovation centre in Shetland, and I recently met a delegation to discuss T7. [911032] Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op): I have those proposals. However, investments that we make on listened in astonishment to the answers from the behalf of the taxpayer have to be the right strategic Financial Secretary and the Chancellor about the loan energy investments for the country and provide good charges. Given that the Financial Secretary admitted value for money for the taxpayer. that the Government were pursuing six companies on a legal basis over this—they are admitting they are the Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): I met companies responsible—why do they pursue constituents headteachers and school governors across Cornwall like mine, many of whom were obliged to undertake recently, and they are very concerned about the pressure these tax changes in order to get work? that their school budgets are under, so can I put in my bid for more money for education in the comprehensive The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mel Stride): spending review, and can we ensure that that money is We are simply making sure that the tax that was always fairly distributed so that schools in Cornwall get their due is paid, and that is right and proper. As I have set fair share? out, we are taking a front-footed approach to clamping down on promoters, and that has included six recent Elizabeth Truss: It sounds like I will not need to arrests for potential criminal activities. conduct any more meetings, because we can just continue this debate in the Chamber. I hear what my hon. Friend Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): says, and I agree that there is unfairness across the Will the Chancellor of the Exchequer acknowledge the system. We are working on that at the moment. important role that the national lottery has played in this country? When he looks at the national lottery, will Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/ he ensure that any future lottery that is run on a Co-op): Wherever the Royal Navy deploys, the Royal national basis is taxed at the same rate? Fleet Auxiliary deploys alongside it, but instead of 615 Oral Answers 21 MAY 2019 Oral Answers 616 getting the 2.9% pay increase that the sailors got, RFA Mr Philip Hammond: I pay tribute to my right hon. personnel got a below-inflation 1.5% increase. As the Friend, because it was at her prompting that I originally total cost of the difference is only £400,000, will the asked the Office for National Statistics to look at how Government think again and give our brave RFA crews we measure and value human capital to ensure that the pay rise they deserve? there is no systematic bias against human capital in favour of physical capital. The ONS has in fact delivered Elizabeth Truss: Royal Fleet Auxiliary personnel are its draft report, and the question of how we measure part of the civil service, so this is a matter for the and value human capital will be at the centre of the Cabinet Office, alongside the Ministry of Defence, but I spending review process. am sure that it will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): representations. Has the time not come for the Chancellor to heed the call from the Westminster leaders of seven Opposition Justine Greening (Putney) (Con): As the questions parties to fund proper compensation for those infected today have demonstrated, the Treasury needs to take a and affected by the NHS blood scandal across the much longer-term view of investing in people and their whole United Kingdom? human capital, just as it does in relation to physical capital. When is the Office for National Statistics’ human Mr Hammond: That is an issue for the Department of capital review finally going to report? It was announced Health and Social Care. I understand the hon. Lady’s in March 2018, but I cannot even find out whether its concerns, and I will pass them on to my right hon. Friend consultation has been published yet. the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care. 617 21 MAY 2019 British Steel 618

British Steel £30 million following negotiations with the Department. Will the Minister outline the asks of British Steel throughout the negotiations? Have the discussions included just 12.40 pm financial support or a wider package of measures to Gill Furniss (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) support the site in Scunthorpe and the steel industry (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State more widely? for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy if he will Will the Minister confirm the status of the negotiations make a statement on the discussions he has had with and why they are reported to have stalled in recent British Steel regarding its future. days? It has been reported that one of the reasons was the Department’s frustration with Greybull Capital’s The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, apparent unwillingness to put money on the table. Will Energy and Industrial Strategy (Andrew Stephenson): the Minister confirm whether that is the case? What My Department is in regular conversation with a wide impact did the company’s decision to acquire Ascoval range of companies, including those in the steel industry. last week have on the negotiations? If no deal can be As the House will be aware, the Government entered reached with Greybull, have the Government considered into a commercial agreement with British Steel on any other options, such as bringing British Steel into 24 April, valued at £120 million, relating to the company’s public ownership? obligations under the EU emissions trading system. The Secretary of State updated the House on that Finally, the steel sector is facing myriad issues, from agreement in an oral statement on 1 May—the first the value of sterling and the uncertainty around future available opportunity after market-sensitive elements of trading with the EU through to US trade tariffs, and the the resulting transaction were concluded. The commercial Government could have taken steps to address them, agreement reached with British Steel ensured that the such as greater procurement of UK steel, agreeing a company was able to meet its 2018 EU ETS obligations sector deal, as the industry was requesting, and taking under a deed of forfeiture. It also ensured that the action on energy prices. Does the Minister accept that company did not incur an EU ETS non-compliance this Government have simply failed to take the steps fine which, coupled with 2018 ETS liabilities, would necessary to ensure that UK steel remains competitive? have equated to a financial pressure of over £600 million—a sum that would have put the company under significant Andrew Stephenson: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for financial strain. the commitment that she and her family have shown to The speculation regarding the future of British Steel the steel sector over many years.I represent the constituency will no doubt be creating uncertainty for those employed of Pendle, which is dominated by manufacturing, and I by the company. As shown through the ETS agreement, share her passion for the steel sector. I will leave no the Government have been willing to act. We have been stone unturned, and neither will the Secretary of State in ongoing discussions with the company, and I am sure for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy,in supporting the House will understand that we cannot comment in the UK steel sector. detail at this stage. We will update the House when more information is available. I can, however, reassure As the House will know, we can only act within the the House that, subject to strict legal bounds, the strict bounds of what is legally possible under domestic Government will leave no stone unturned in their support and European law. I can assure the House that we will of the steel industry. continue to do whatever is in our power to support the UK steel industry and those who work in the sector. We Yesterday I signed up to the UK steel charter. We are working with the sector, the unions and the devolved want to acknowledge and support the initiative from Administrations to support all aspects of the UK steel the industry, and the charter is one element of that. We sector. have been also been encouraging the UK steel sector to strengthen its engagement with all existing and potential The Government have taken a number of important domestic steel consumers, maximising opportunities to longer-term steps, including ensuring that social and benefit from the £3.8 billion a year of high market value economic factors can be taken into account in public opportunities that we have identified by 2030. Werecognise sector steel procurement, and providing more than that global economic conditions continue to be challenging £291 million in compensation to the steel sector since for the industry,which is why the Government are working 2013 to make energy costs more competitive. We with the sector, unions and the devolved Administrations have also published a pipeline of upcoming national to support a sustainable, productive and modern UK infrastructure projects every year to enable steel businesses steel sector. to plan for future demand. As I mentioned earlier, I signed the UK steel charter Gill Furniss: It goes without saying that the UK steel yesterday, and I will be encouraging other hon. Members industry is critical to our manufacturing base and that and Government Departments to do the same. We want protecting the industry should be of paramount importance to acknowledge the importance of this industry. to the Government. The industry provides over 30,000 highly skilled, well-paid jobs in the UK, and British Steel directly employs around 4,500 in Scunthorpe, with a Tom Pursglove (Corby) (Con): On Friday I had one further 20,000 down the supply chain. Does the Minister of my regular catch-ups at the Tata steelworks in Corby, agree the Government should be doing everything in their and we specifically talked about support for the steel power to prevent British Steel from entering administration? charter. I was obviously pleased to see the Minister at It is reported that British Steel had initially asked the yesterday’s event, but will he both adopt the charter and Government for a £75 million loan in emergency financial action it as quickly as possible so that the industry can support and subsequently reduced that request to around rapidly feel the benefit of the course it advances? 619 British Steel 21 MAY 2019 British Steel 620

Andrew Stephenson: My hon. Friend is a huge champion Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): In the past two of the steel sector. I was pleased to meet representatives years, I had the pleasure of dealing with the steel of Tata yesterday, and I have regular engagements with industry in my capacity as Minister at the Department companies across the steel sector to talk about these for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. I can issues. The UK steel charter is a really good initiative, certainly confirm that the Secretary of State and the and I am proud to have signed it on behalf of my ministerial team are very much behind the steel industry. Department. I will be encouraging other Departments Does the Minister agree that one of the problems to do the same. affecting firms such as British Steel, which has an excellent business plan and very good management, is Marion Fellows (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP): It the uncertainty about the trading relationship with the was left to the SNP Scottish Government to secure a European Union and outside it? Nonsense is talked future for Scottish steel with the transfer of the Dalzell about World Trade Organisation rules and other things, and Clydebridge plants to Liberty. Although Liberty under which there may be a 20% tariff. Will the Minister, still expects operations at British Steel to continue as at the Dispatch Box, please ask the Opposition and normal for the time being, it is preparing and taking the Members on the Government side who voted against necessary measures to protect the business from a potential the Prime Minister’s deal to change their minds and get shortage of slab, which would affect the Liberty works. Brexit sorted out very quickly? That will help the steel Will the support shown to British Steel, not to mention industry more than anything. Nissan, be given to any Scottish firms affected? British Steel needed a loan earlier this month to pay its £100 million Brexit fine.Given that British Steel is clear that Brexit-related Andrew Stephenson: I echo the comments of my issues are taking the firm to the brink, how many more predecessor, whose shoes I am still trying to fill only six jobs will Westminster sacrifice before it gets the message weeks into the job. All Members should reflect on the that Brexit must be stopped? real-world impacts of the decisions—or lack of them—that they make in this place on businesses, and how that can Andrew Stephenson: I am very keen to work with the affect thousands of jobs and whole towns across the devolved Administrations to support the UK steel sector. United Kingdom. Only this week I met the Secretary of State for Wales and a Welsh steel company to talk about support for the Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): The Government steelworks in that part of the United Kingdom. I am have presided over the decline of the UK steel industry: very keen to work with the Scottish Government to the closure of Redcar in 2016; the lack of assurances ensure that we have a thriving steel sector in Scotland as obtained from Greybull when it took over British Steel; well. the chaotic handling of Brexit; and the failure to agree a sector deal with the steel industry, which it has been Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): Will crying out for. The Government now have a chance to my hon. Friend undertake to avoid halving both output right some of those wrongs. I urge the Minister to do and employment? That is what the last Labour Government everything in his power to protect jobs, investment and achieved. our vital manufacturing base in our steel sector.

Andrew Stephenson: We have taken decisive action to Andrew Stephenson: In this role, I want to do everything support the UK steel sector. There are more things we that I can to support the UK steel sector. We were the could do, and I am keen to explore with industry what first country in Europe to take account of socioeconomic more we can do, but I agree that the challenges here factors in public sector procurement. We have provided have been going on for a number of years.This Government more than £291 million in compensation for high energy see the steel sector as fundamentally important to British costs in the UK. We have provided and published a industry, and we will continue to leave no stone unturned pipeline of upcoming national infrastructure projects, in supporting the sector. and last year I signed the UK steel charter. We are doing a lot as a Government, although there is more Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): Steelworkers and their that we can do. I stand ready to help the sector in any families in my constituency and across the country are way I can. anxious,as the Minister has recognised. Pragmatic decisions in the coming days could still avert another industrial disaster. I have spoken to the trade unions, which are Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East clear from the messages they are getting that there is Cleveland) (Con): I welcome the Minister’s answers still a deal to be done. It is important that, across the today and appreciate that there are limitations on what House and outside the House, we all work to make sure he can say at this time. I thank him and his team at the this delivers positively for the future of the British steel Department for all the work I know they are doing to industry. Does the Minister agree that the stakes are too deliver a sustainable future for British Steel. I urge him high for the Government, for us, to fail? to impress on Greybull Capital its moral and legal responsibility to the hundreds of men and women, in Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for my constituency and elsewhere, to deliver a sustainable his comments; we have discussed this issue over the past future for the industry. few days. When we are in a position to update the House with more information, we will do so. I hope that Andrew Stephenson: My hon. Friend is a champion of he will acknowledge that the Secretary of State is one of steelworkers in his constituency. We will, of course, the most diligent Ministers in coming to the Dispatch update the House when we have more information on Box as soon as information is readily available. At this any specific discussions with any steel company. That is stage, however, I cannot comment on specifics. all I can say. 621 British Steel 21 MAY 2019 British Steel 622

Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Today we are Andrew Stephenson: Delivering a deal negotiated with rightly talking about British Steel and the strong action the EU remains the Government’s top priority.It remains needed to save the company. Surely the Minister the best way to provide security for the future of British understands that the situation makes it even more crucial jobs and businesses. that we have a robust and positive industrial strategy, with steel as a key part, and a sector deal. That is what Anna Turley (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op): Redcar steelworks steelworkers at Orb, Llanwern and Liberty in my was closed by the Government three and a half years constituency want. When will the Government act? ago, with the loss of 3,100 jobs. After that biggest act of industrial vandalism, everybody came together and said, Andrew Stephenson: Wehave a robust industrial strategy “Never again!” The Minister has said that he will leave and remain open to a steel sector deal. Since I have been no stone unturned, but is he willing to accept that if appointed, I have been meeting steel industry representatives the worst should happen and the company goes into and discussing that, along with other issues. I have administration, the Government will step in to secure mentioned the steel pipeline, support on energy costs the asset this time—not let it go to waste so that it is still and a range of things that the Government are already sitting there three and a half years later—and secure the doing. We need to see through the steel sector deal workforce and their livelihoods? whether we can take that further.

Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): As the Minister Andrew Stephenson: The Government have been willing knows, part of the Scunthorpe site and probably the to act. We provided a £120 million bridging facility to lion’sshare of workers at Scunthorpe live in my constituency. the company earlier this month, which shows that we I thank him and the Secretary of State, on my behalf are fleet of foot and responsive to businesses that approach and that of the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin), us with their concerns. I cannot comment on any current for their frequent communication with us over the past negotiations with this or any other company, but the week or so. Government are responsive, and, when it comes to this Certainty is very important to the industry. That is specific company, we have already shown our willingness why, with some reservations, I have consistently supported to act, with that £120 million. the Prime Minister’s deal, to end the Brexit uncertainty, and I will continue to do so. I hope that other colleagues James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): I was born in will also do that, as British Steel has asked it of Members 1974: in my entire lifetime, unemployment has never of Parliament. been lower than it is today. Should we not remember Will the Minister confirm that, if the company were that picture? It is based not on policies such as nationalised, it would be subject to the same rules on renationalisation but on maintaining pro-business policies Government investment had it remained in private that keep us attractive and open to inward investment. ownership? Andrew Stephenson: I see the steel sector as fundamentally Andrew Stephenson: Delivering a negotiated deal from important to the British economy, and we are keen to the EU remains the Government’s top priority, and I do everything we can to support it. However, as I have hope Members will vote for the deal. My hon. Friend is already said and the House will know, we can only act exactly correct: nationalisation is not the solution. If within the strict bounds of what is legally possible the business were nationalised, the exact same domestic under domestic and European law. and European laws would apply. Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): It is now Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) nearly two years since the Helm review, yet British steel (PC): According to the BBC, 95% of the rail used by producers are paying 50% more for energy than their Network Rail comes from the Scunthorpe plant. Instead competitors in Germany and nearly twice as much as of bailing out what is essentially a private equity firm, those in France. Does the Minister accept that that will the British Government not consider taking a disparity has to be removed? If so, what action will he direct equity share in the company, or, if it goes into take to remove it and when will he take that action? administration, creating an arm’s length publicly owned company to take over the plant? Andrew Stephenson: We have already provided Andrew Stephenson: Any support for any business in £291 million in compensation to the steel sector since the steel sector has to be commercial, to fulfil state aid 2013, including £53 million in 2018, to make energy rules. Whatever support is provided to any steel company costs more competitive. I am particularly keen to see the has to stack up on that basis. However this is done, and steel sector benefit from the industrial energy transformation whether we take a stake in the company or not, this has fund, which is backed by an additional £315 million of to be done on a commercial basis. investment. I have already had discussions with UK Steel about how firms across the sector can make the Dame Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): The union most use of this transformative funding. convenor from British Steel’s Scunthorpe plant came to Parliament last week and told us that 25% of its order Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I thank the Government book had been lost through Brexit uncertainty. He for the action they are taking. Does the Minister summed up their plight as “No deal, no British Steel”. agree that, just as our agriculture sector is vital for the Does the Minister agree that resolving Brexit uncertainty national interest in food security, our steel sector is vital by voting for the Bill next month would offer a lifeline for the national interest in defence and manufacturing to the company and other manufacturing businesses? security? 623 British Steel 21 MAY 2019 British Steel 624

Andrew Stephenson: I wholeheartedly agree with my for the first time this year. Many other large construction hon. Friend. His Stafford constituency has, like mine, projects in the UK, such as Hinkley Point C, are significant numbers of people who work in manufacturing, contributing significantly to new orders and future business and we all know how important the UK steel sector is. for the steel sector. We hope that our transparency will In my role as Minister I will do everything I can to lead to better public procurement, and we will work support the sector. with the industry to ensure that it uses the data to ensure further support and orders for the British steel Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP): sector. British Steel’s service centre for Ireland is located at Lisburn in my constituency, and those jobs are vital for Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): The Minister our local economy. I echo the comments of other right talks about the steel pipeline, but only half the steel that hon. and hon. Members in encouraging the Government the UK Government buy is from the UK. What steps to look more closely at a sector deal for the steel will the Government take to increase dramatically the industry. As the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy share of UK steel that is used in Government projects? Lefroy) said, the sector is vital for the UK economy, and we encourage the Government to go the extra mile. Andrew Stephenson: We were the first EU country to implement socioeconomic and environmental factors in Andrew Stephenson: I remain open to discussions on public procurement rules on the purchase of steel. For a sector deal with the steel industry, and I have already the first time ever, we have published information for met companies. I will certainly do everything I can to not only Departments but their arm’s length bodies on ensure that such a deal is reached without delay. how much steel they have procured over the past financial year and how they have applied the steel procurement Mr Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): I congratulate my guidance. I hope that that will allow greater transparency hon. Friend on the way in which he is handling himself in the sector so that we can see exactly where steel is and the Department, having come into his new post coming from and ensure that we can increase the proportion with such an issue to deal with. This is a serious matter, that is bought from UK suppliers. but we must remember that steel is an internationally competitive and traded commodity.The industry currently Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) faces the challenge of the US-China trade war and (Con): Some 88% of structural steel used in the Queen tariffs being imposed on it. Will my hon. Friend inform Elizabeth aircraft carrier programme was sourced from the House what measures the Government can take to UK producers. Does my hon. Friend agree that the UK seek to provide some protection from the dumping of steel industry is vital to our nation’s defence security, Chinese steel in this country? and will he do all he can to support it?

Andrew Stephenson: My right hon. Friend is correct that Andrew Stephenson: UK steel is incredibly important, this is a global issue. The 33 countries that are members not only to our defence sector but to other sectors. The of the G20 global forum on steel excess capacity have published details on the upcoming steel requirements agreed important policy principles and recommendations for national infrastructure projects show that the to tackle unfair subsidies and practices. It is important Government plan to use more than 3 million tonnes of that all G20 global forum members act on that agreement steel, until 2021, for infrastructure projects such as and are held to account for unfair practices. Hinkley Point and for the maintenance and upgrading of the UK’s motorway network. Steel is important not Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): People in just to defence but across a range of sectors, which is Barnsley whose jobs depend on industrial supply chains why the Government stand ready to support the UK will be astounded if the Government let the owners of steel sector. British Steel walk away with tens of millions while they suffer the consequences of administration. Will the Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): British Minister guarantee that that will not happen? Steel has made it clear that Brexit uncertainty is scaring customers away and is a major cause of its problems. Andrew Stephenson: I cannot be drawn on the specifics, There is a simple solution: stop Brexit and stem the flow but through our industrial strategy the Government of job losses and relocations. If the Minister is not want to work with all businesses, large and small, to willing to take such action, will the Government instead ensure the success of British industry. I see the British look into the idea of setting up a Brexit support fund, steel industry as an important part of that and we need which could be used, where appropriate, to support to work together to ensure its long-term success. businesses and sectors that have been damaged by Brexit?

Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Scunthorpe Andrew Stephenson: British Steel has been clear that produces the long products that are vital for major Members of this House should vote for the deal, which infrastructure projects such as High Speed 2. Will the I have voted for three times. All Members should reflect Minister assure the House that projects such as HS2 on the real-world impacts of the decisions that we make will use British steel? Will he ensure that he does everything in this place, or the lack thereof, on businesses and the possible to ensure that British-manufactured steel is people we represent. used in major infrastructure projects? Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): The Andrew Stephenson: The Government have worked Minister is right to consider jobs at risk, particularly hard to produce a pipeline of the steel products being when they relate to what are hopefully relatively short-term used in the public sector, and the details were published Brexit uncertainties, but to be fair Greybull did buy the 625 British Steel 21 MAY 2019 British Steel 626 business after the referendum and therefore might have Andrew Stephenson: We are working with industry on expected some volatility ahead. Will the Minister confirm a range of projects to ensure that a higher proportion of to the House that if he decides to support the business, the UK domestic need for steel is supplied by British it will be an isolated case, rather than an ongoing policy companies. As I have mentioned before, the steel pipeline of supporting failing businesses? has identified those projects, which means that steel companies can see when the demand is coming many Andrew Stephenson: All support that is provided for years ahead. Hopefully, we can ensure that a much businesses has to be compliant with UK domestic law higher proportion of our domestic steel requirement is and EU law. It has to pass various commerciality tests supplied from British Steel projects. to be legal and compliant with state aid rules. We always stand ready to work with UK businesses to protect UK Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab): To say that the Government interests and jobs, but any support that we provide has have left no stone unturned is, frankly, an insult to an to be legal. industry that has been sent to the back of the queue when it comes to a sector deal. When will it get the Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): It is almost three sector deal for which it has been crying out for month years to the day since we were battling to save the entire after month after month? I ask the Minister to give us a Tata operation throughout the United Kingdom. It very specific date. beggars belief that we are here having the same conversation and asking the same questions. The fact is that the Andrew Stephenson: Sector deals are not about value fundamental problem is that the British steel industry is signalling. We are not doing sector deals randomly not able to compete on a level playing field because of across the board. We are doing sector deals where we the Government’s complete failure to have an industrial believe that they can deliver a transformation in productivity strategy to support it. When will the Government stop and enhance production in any sector. The UK steel leaving stones unturned and give the steel industry the sector, like the global steel sector, is challenged by sector deal it urgently needs? global economic conditions, oversupply and a range of other factors. We have taken firm action on sorting out Andrew Stephenson: I know the hon. Gentleman is energy costs. We are supplying millions of pounds in incredibly passionate about this issue. I met representatives compensation. We have launched the industrial energy of Tata Steel yesterday, and we discussed many issues transformation fund and we have the industrial strategy relating specifically to the Port Talbot site. Rather than challenge fund. There is the steel pipeline and now the a bleak picture, they painted a positive picture of how steel charter. This Government are dong an awful lot to that site has grown over recent years. There has been help the UK steel sector. significant investment and the company wishes to invest more. The Government will work with Tata Steel to Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): I support it in any way possible, and we will certainly wonder whether the Minister might respond to the work with colleagues in the Welsh Assembly to ensure point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Scunthorpe that if any support is required it is delivered. Across the (Nic Dakin), who said that the stakes are too high to board, we are working to support the UK steel sector. fail for this vital national industry as well as for the regional economy in the Humber area. Sir Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab): The Minister Andrew Stephenson: The closure of any steel blast talked about public sector procurement; my understanding furnace or steel mill would have a significant impact on is that around 50% of the steel used in public sector the locality. All the sites across the United Kingdom procurement is produced here in the United Kingdom. employ large numbers of people, which is why we are Why is the proportion not higher? very keen to support all sites across the country.However, Andrew Stephenson: That is a good question. We were as I have said, the Government are willing to take the first EU country to implement socioeconomic and action and intervene where we can. We supplied the environmental factors in public procurement rules, which £120 million bridging facility to British Steel recently, means we can take into account the impact on carbon which I hope shows the level of commitment from this emissions and on local communities. This is the first Government. We will work with all companies across year in which that information has been published and the sector to support them, but any support we provide made readily available. Now that it has been published, to any business has to be judged against British and I have asked my officials to look into how we can European law. consider not only that information but the steel pipeline, Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): As my to ensure that we support British companies as much as hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Anna Turley) we can. If British companies need to transform some of said, the Tory Government have form in failing to their processes to supply a greater proportion of UK support this steel industry. Ministers turned their backs domestic demand, I am sure my Department will do on Teesside in particular when we lost the country’s whatever it can to support them but, as I have said most efficient blast furnace, leaving thousands of people several times, any support that we provide to any businesses out of work. Now, more Teesside steel workers face an in the steel sector has to be compliant with UK domestic uncertain future. We need Ministers to act to save those law and EU state aid law. jobs that we have left, but also to accelerate the investment on Teesside to create the well-paid jobs that have been Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab): The forthcoming promised but not delivered. When will we get these jobs? Government project to build the Royal Navy fleet solid support ships will clearly use enormous amounts of Andrew Stephenson: The Government are working to steel. Quite simply, why can the Minister not ensure that support the sector. As I have just mentioned, a £120 million those ships are built of UK steel? bridging facility has been supplied to British Steel to 627 British Steel 21 MAY 2019 628

[Andrew Stephenson] Points of Order support its EU emissions trading system compliance, which demonstrates that graphically. In the past few 1.15 pm weeks, we have been working with the sector on high Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) rose— energy costs, we are working with the sector to reduce its carbon emissions and we are working across the board to support all regions of the United Kingdom. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab) rose—

Melanie Onn (Great Grimsby) (Lab): What reassurance Mr Speaker: I think I was going to hear a point of can the Minister offer to the many apprentices who order from Mr Blomfield and then I will come to the work at the Scunthorpe plant from my Great Grimsby hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone). constituency and to the colleges that arrange those apprenticeships in the event that the Government’s Paul Blomfield: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I intervention is not sufficient? would be grateful for your advice on an urgent matter. One of my constituents is a Zimbabwean national, an Andrew Stephenson: Media speculation about this asylum seeker, who had an outstanding claim and who, site and about the financial future of this site is unhelpful. on arrival at Vulcan House immigration centre in Sheffield If we have anything to say we will update the House for a routine interview, was met by officials of the when there is more information available. Zimbabwean Government. The immigration rules make it clear that the Home Office should not take steps for Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): Last the removal of an individual from the UK while a fresh week, Martin Foster, a loyal long-serving steel worker claim is being made as it obviously puts her at greater and the Unite union convenor from Scunthorpe, told risk of persecution by the Zimbabwean Government Parliament: no deal, no British Steel. In urging, as he about which there is great concern. did, that a deal be done with a strong customs union at I wrote to the Immigration Minister about this issue its heart, does the Minister agree that he is right and on 27 February, seeking an urgent response. Despite that British Steel is right? Does he also agree that those repeated emails and calls to the MPs’ correspondence who think that we can crash out of the European Union unit, I have not received any response and the latest without a deal and rely on World Trade Organisation update was simply that my letter was passed to a terms just do not live on the same planet as those director for consideration two months after I sent it on Scunthorpe steel workers whose whole future is now 25 April. This matter has become urgent because my threatened? constituent has now been told that her claim has been denied and that she must leave the UK. It appears to me Andrew Stephenson: British Steel wrote to local MPs that the Home Office has acted in contravention of the in the Scunthorpe area to urge them to vote for the immigration rules. Prime Minister’s deal. I have voted for it three times. How many times has the hon. Gentleman voted for it? I would be grateful for your advice, Mr Speaker, on how I can progress this matter urgently with the Minister Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): for Immigration, as my representations to her have been Primary steel making in Scotland ended in 1992 with directed to the correspondence unit, and my representations the closure of Ravenscraig, but the two remaining secondary to the correspondence unit have yielded nothing. I would steel plants that process plate are heavily reliant on the also welcome your advice on how I can be reassured Scunthorpe blast furnaces, which supply them with that my constituent will not be removed from the UK steel and, in turn, the shipbuilding industry in Glasgow. until the matter is resolved. Not only have we seen this Government leading efforts to block action against Chinese dumping at the European Mr Speaker: I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman Commission, but we have seen them diluting efforts to for his point of order and for his characteristic courtesy ensure maximised content for British manufactured in giving me advance notice of his intention to raise it. products in renewables projects. We have seen them The hon. Gentleman raises both a general concern move the goalposts from 60% of manufactured content about the Home Office’sresponse to urgent correspondence to 60% of through-life content. When will the Minister from Members of Parliament and a specific matter understand the reality of the impact that these damaging about the possible removal from the UK of his constituent. decisions are having on the British steel industry and On the latter point, which is clearly of great importance reverse them? to his constituent, I hope that what he says has been heard on the Treasury Bench and will be conveyed to Andrew Stephenson: We are working with the G20 the relevant Minister without delay. Traditionally, the global forum on steel. There are currently 46 EU trade Leader of the House under successive Governments—I defence measures in place to protect UK steel producers hope that this continues to be the case, and I have no from unfair trade imports. As we move to leave the EU reason to think otherwise—has accepted some responsibility and operate a trade policy, the UK will continue to for chasing Ministers where replies are tardy or, in champion free trade, but will also take a proportionate terms of content, insubstantial—that is to say holding. approach to trade remedies. I very much hope that that will continue to be the case and that the matter will be pursued. There is a responsibility on Ministers, timeously and substantively, to respond both to questions from hon. and right hon. Members and to correspondence from them. Simply to hive the 629 Points of Order 21 MAY 2019 Points of Order 630 matter off and to subcontract responsibility to some Sir Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): On a point of outside agency is not the right way to proceed in terms order, Mr Speaker. Further to your own stricture during of courtesy to colleagues who are, after all, the elected yesterday’s Defence questions, could you assist us further representatives of their constituents. On the general on the position of Northern Ireland veterans? As I point, which will be of concern to Back Benchers across understand it, we are due a written statement later the House, I underline that it is unsatisfactory if there today from the Defence Secretary on the position of are not prompt and substantive responses. That does veterans of conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, but we need to change. still have no statement from the Northern Ireland Secretary in respect of those Northern Ireland veterans whose future is now very uncertain, as they do not know Mr Bone: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Apologies whether or not they are likely to be arrested, charged that I could not give you advance notice, but this matter and prosecuted in respect of allegations made during has only just come to my attention. Apparently the the troubles in Northern Ireland. Surely the Northern Prime Minister is going to make a speech at 4 o’clock Ireland Secretary should not be hiding from the House, this afternoon about what is in the withdrawal agreement but should be coming forward and making her Bill—announcing new Government policy. It has always announcement in the proper way. been a convention of this House that new Government policy should be announced via a statement on the Mr Speaker: As the right hon. Gentleman says, I did Floor of the House before it is announced to the media. offer some strictures—as he puts it—to the House Mr Speaker, have you been advised whether the yesterday. My impression was that those strictures were Government are going to make a statement today? not unwelcome,particularly as far as Back-Bench Members were concerned. At this point, I am not aware of any Mr Speaker: I have received no notification of that. intention on the part of the Secretary of State for As the hon. Gentleman and others will be aware, I have Northern Ireland to come to the Chamber to deliver an been attending to my duties in the Chair since the start oral statement on the matter. However, the right hon. of business at 11.30 am, so I am not aware of this Gentleman, who speaks with very considerable experience matter. [Interruption.] In fact, I have just had an indication and authority in this place, has made his concern clear. that the Prime Minister may deliver a speech, but I am That concern was also articulated in the most unmistakable certainly not aware of any intention to make a statement terms by a number of Members yesterday. There must to this House. Knowing what a fastidious and indefatigable be an opportunity for Members to question and probe parliamentarian the hon. Gentleman is, I rather imagine the Secretary of State on this matter. If, therefore, an that he will not let his concern rest at this point; I fully oral statement is not forthcoming, there are other tried expect that he will pursue the matter. There may be a and tested means of securing the presence of a Minister statement from the Prime Minister in due course. Members in the Chamber. I am quite sure that the right hon. may seek to catch my eye at Prime Minister’s questions Gentleman does not require a tutorial from me on that tomorrow,and I am sure that there will be full opportunities matter, and that sooner or later somebody will take for proper scrutiny of this and other matters. I hope advantage of that opportunity—probably sooner, rather that is helpful to the hon. Gentleman. than later. 631 21 MAY 2019 Pregnancy and Maternity 632 (Redundancy Protection) Pregnancy and Maternity is on leave for a prolonged period, a new mother will (Redundancy Protection) simply be unable to participate on equal terms with her other colleagues. In short, it is no time to be made Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order redundant. That is the reasoning behind the existing No. 23) protections. The problem is that those protections simply do not work in practice. 1.22 pm Keen-eyed colleagues will have noted that this Bill Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I beg to move, comes on the heels of the Department for Business, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit making Energy and Industrial Strategy consultation, which is employees redundant during pregnancy, maternity leave and the looking at extending the existing protections to six period of six months from the end of pregnancy; and for connected months after maternity leave has ended. The current purposes. protections state that if a woman is made redundant It is a scandal that in 2019 so many women should be during her maternity leave, she must be offered any fearful of losing their jobs simply because they are suitable alternative vacancies. Extending this provision pregnant, so I am introducing this Bill to protect pregnant for six months would not be a negative step—I am sure women and new mothers from redundancy. My Bill sets it would be welcomed in some quarters—but it would out to strengthen the existing protection that new mothers not solve the problem. The law as it currently stands is have under the law by adopting much of the model too often ignored or circumvented by employers, either already in use in Germany. It would stop an employer because it is poorly understood or due to ingrained from being able to make a woman redundant from the stereotypes about new mothers’ place in the workplace, point that she notifies them that she is pregnant until six so the existing protection does not work. months after the end of her maternity leave; in Germany, This Bill proposes a much simpler and clearer protection, that period is currently three months. There would be drawing on the proposals of the Women and Equalities an exception where the employer ceases to carry on Committee in 2016. The Committee recommended that business where the pregnant woman or new mother is the Government consider the German model. I reiterate employed. The protection is specifically in relation to that recommendation today because in Germany, where redundancy.It would not, for instance, apply if a dismissal 72% of women are in work—a higher proportion than was put in place for gross misconduct. That would be in the UK—a new or expectant mother cannot be made outside of the scope of the Bill. redundant unless the employer has secured the consent There are half a million pregnant women in the of a specific public authority, which is only given in workplace every year, and the Government should be exceptional circumstances. The Government’sconsultation applauded for achieving record numbers of women in offered a response to that recommendation, objecting work. However, many women go on to take a period of on the basis that it would not be appropriate to apply an maternity leave before returning to work and, shockingly, approach to enforcement that is fundamentally different research by the Equality and Human Rights Commission from that of the rest of employment law. finds that one in 20 of these women is made redundant while pregnant or on maternity leave. Overall, more The Government are already planning to bring forward than 50,000 pregnant women every year feel that they proposals for a new single enforcement body, so perhaps have no alternative but to leave their job when they are the novel approach that the Committee put forward pregnant. The cost of this situation is high for women may not now be out of the question. But assuming it is, on so many levels. The EHRC says that pregnancy and the Bill I propose today answers those criticisms directly. maternity-related discrimination results in job losses It would not need a new watchdog to enforce it. The and a cost to women of between £47 million and upgraded right would simply be enforced through £113 million a year. The costs to the taxpayer are also employment tribunals or through the automatic unfair significant, as the Government forgo taxes and pay dismissal provisions that already exist in the Employment increased benefits to the tune of between £14 million Rights Act 1996. The proposal would fit seamlessly and £17 million. within existing structures. It would not require a new This scandal also holds back our economy.The broader quango. It is in line with the Government’s aims. It has economic advantages of encouraging women’sparticipation been shown to work on other shores. The major change in the labour market are well documented. According it would make is to offer pregnant women the sort of toareportbyMcKinsey,encouragingwomen’sparticipation protection that is long overdue. We know that the in work and ensuring that they are protected from protection that is currently written into law is not discrimination could add as much as £150 billion to the effective. At present, more mothers are made redundant UK economy. If the Government are to achieve their during maternity leave than before or afterwards, despite objective of eliminating the gender pay gap, they need the current protections in place. to tackle maternity discrimination at its roots. Charities offering legal advice to pregnant women, So why do we need to protect new and expectant such as Maternity Action, tell me that employers routinely mothers in particular from redundancy? We already ignore the existing protections. Take the story of one legally protect maternity leave for multiple and important woman who called the Maternity Action helpline recently. reasons. Maternity leave is a time for bonding with a She was booked in to give birth by caesarean the new baby, for recovering from the physical and mental following week. Her employer had just told her that her strain of pregnancy and birth, and for learning to role had been identified as being at risk of redundancy, handle the significant challenges of parenthood. It is no along with the rest of her team. She was being asked to time to be going for a job interview for a new post, nor apply for one of the remaining roles, in line with the to be distracted or driven to distraction by the stress of current law, but the assessments and interviews would a redundancy process—a process in which, because she happen over the next month—the period in which she 633 Pregnancy and Maternity 21 MAY 2019 Pregnancy and Maternity 634 (Redundancy Protection) (Redundancy Protection) would be in hospital and at home recovering from the enough, we need robust legislation that takes the onus caesarean. The existing regulations should have prevented off women. That is precisely what this Bill will do. I her employer from demanding that she attend interviews commend the Bill to the House. while on maternity leave, but these rules have not been Question put and agreed to. understood or applied by the employer in this case. I am Ordered, afraid that that is just one of a catalogue of cases that were put forward to us by charities and to the Select That Mrs Maria Miller, Eddie Hughes, Vicky Ford, Committee when it undertook its inquiry. Dominic Raab, Jess Phillips, Sarah Champion, Jo Swinson, Liz Saville Roberts, Angela Crawley, Caroline Lucas, Under the current system, the odds are stacked against Helen Whately and Antoinette Sandbach present the Bill. each of these women, as they are absent from the Mrs Maria Miller accordingly presented the Bill. workplace during their maternity leave. For a woman to challenge her employer’s unlawful behaviour, she would Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time have to go to an employment tribunal—not an attractive tomorrow and to be printed (Bill 392). prospect for any employee, but particularly one who is Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, looking after the needs of a newborn baby at home. Mr Speaker. Every single word that the right hon. Perhaps unsurprisingly, fewer than 1% of women who Member for Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) has just said is, I have been discriminated against in pregnancy go to think, supported by the whole House. Doubtless legislation employment tribunal. would sail through the House if there were an opportunity My Bill would strip out the complexity of the protection for it to do so, but there is no private Members’ Bill day available to these women. We would be able to tell a on which to advance such a Bill, and we cannot even woman that from the time she is pregnant to six months have a ballot for private Members’ Bills until we have after she returns to work, she cannot be made redundant, Prorogation and a new Session of Parliament. Is it not unless the employer is closing down all of the business time we had one? or ceasing the work that she is employed to do. Women who experience a stillbirth or miscarriage would similarly Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman makes his own be protected for up to six months from the end of their point in his own way. It is very clear, it is on the record, pregnancy or any leave that they were entitled to. The and doubtless, as he hopes, it will be picked up elsewhere. woman’semployer would also be able to easily comprehend [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman pessimistically chunters their duty, making it easier to comply and harder to from a sedentary position, “and ignored”. He should inadvertently discriminate. have more belief in himself and more faith in the force of his own message. [Interruption.] The former Government The change that I propose has the support of Members Chief Whip chunters from a sedentary position, “No, across the House and organisations such as Maternity he should be a realist.” Well, we are always grateful to Action and the Fawcett Society,which have been invaluable the right hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales (Sir Patrick in helping to draft the Bill. Rather than simply extending McLoughlin). It is good at least to see a smile on his the existing protections, which we know do not go far face. 635 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 636 and Renewal) Bill Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and plans, but I am concerned that in building a temporary Renewal) Bill Chamber, we are building a white elephant without any purpose beyond 10 years. Will she look at alternative [Relevant documents: First Report of the Joint Committee building techniques like those used in the 1950s and on the Draft Parliamentary Buildings Bill, Governance of those used for the Olympics in 2012 for buildings that Restoration and Renewal, HC 1800, HL Paper 317; are built not for a 50-year life but for a shorter life, Government response to the Report of the Joint Committee which would be much less expensive to the taxpayer? on the Draft Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill, May 2019, CP 90.] Andrea Leadsom: I appreciate the hon. Lady’s contribution. She will understand that the House of 1.34 pm Commons Commission looked very carefully at the The Leader of the House of Commons (Andrea Leadsom): options for a temporary decant, which could mean I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. eight or even 10 years out of this place. She will also I am delighted to be opening the Second Reading understand that, from a security point of view and from debate on the Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration the cost-effectiveness point of view,the House of Commons and Renewal) Bill. This has been a very long time Commission looked at the best combination of both coming. Today we can move decisively to end inaction those things. Temporary structures that are not possible and protect our Parliament for future generations. Let to secure, and structures that are by their nature temporary us not be under any illusion about the possible consequences and provide no legacy value, were also looked at carefully, if we fail to take action. The tragic fire at Notre Dame but the decision that was taken to move to Richmond has served as a stark reminder of the risks to this House provides permanent legacy value as well as the historic building. There is no doubt that the best way to cheapest—or at least equally cheap—cost to the taxpayer. avoid a similar incident here is to get on with the job of protecting the thousands of people working here and Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Ind): Most people must be the millions who come to visit. in favour of something happening, but I question the timing. There are many people in all our constituencies Members of this House will be well aware of the who are hungry and face destitution. How dare the problems in the Palace. There have recently been three Government bring forward a Bill before we are out of significant incidents of falling masonry—in Norman austerity and have made good those cuts in the living Shaw North, outside Black Rod’s Entrance, and at the standards of the very poorest? Surely we should not be door to Westminster Hall. It is only through luck that considering whether this fire door or that fire door none of them has led to any serious injuries or even works and whether the scheme is temporary until we are fatalities. Operating on luck is absolutely no way to out of the age of austerity and have rewarded those proceed. We would not be forgiven if one of those who have paid most, which is the poor. incidents had caused significant harm to a visitor or a member of staff. Andrea Leadsom: I have the greatest respect for the There is an ongoing need for round-the-clock fire right hon. Gentleman, and I completely understand his patrols, given that there have been 66 fire incidents in point. He will appreciate that the Palace of Westminster the Palace since 2008. That is why, by the way, I have is in the state it is in precisely because Members have undertaken my fire safety training for the building—and made those exact points for more than 150 years. The I would strongly encourage all hon. and right hon. reality is that it is now costing us a fortune every single Members to do likewise. day—money is being spent by the taxpayer to patch and Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): My right mend a building that is beyond patching and mending. hon. Friend makes a very good point about the threat Seizing this bull by the horns and doing something of fire. For a long time now, I have been arguing that we proactively about it is designed to give good value for should get on and put in fire doors. I am delighted to taxpayers’ money, instead of what is happening now, see that they are now actually being put in. Can she which is spending more and more money to try to confirm that all these long corridors, voids and spaces restore something while we sit here, which will be much will at least be protected by fire doors? I would have more expensive to do. thought that we could do a deal with English Heritage to get that past it. It is better that we are safe than that Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Change UK): On the the place burns down because of the fears of English point about legacy value, would it not be better to have Heritage. a Chamber that we could use for more constructive purposes? Rather than this adversarial approach, we Andrea Leadsom: My right hon. Friend is absolutely could have a circular or semi-circular Chamber, with right. We have taken enormous steps, at great expense, electronic voting facilities, so that we do not build in to try to put in place some temporary fire doors to obsolescence, and we could then use it afterwards—for protect this place. But of course he will also know that example, for citizens’ assemblies and other forums where the way we keep our fire safety licence is by 24/7 patrols we want to engage with the public. of people going around the Palace making sure that fires are not breaking out. Andrea Leadsom: I hope the hon. Lady will appreciate As I say, there have been 66 fire incidents in the that the purpose of the Bill is merely to establish a Palace since 2008, and over the decades— Sponsor Body and Delivery Authority, which will give the best value for money against a professionally run Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): The Leader project that seeks to restore the Palace of Westminster. of the House mentions the issue of great expense. I The shape of the decant Chamber and parliamentary know that this Bill is about the mechanisms and not the procedures for voting can be discussed any day of 637 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 638 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill the week. All Members are encouraged to feed in their Only last week, I went on a tour of the basement, and ideas and suggestions to the northern estate programme, it is clear that the Palace is not fit for purpose in the which is separate from what we are talking about today, 21st century. There are widespread mechanical and and I encourage her to do so. electrical faults. There are wi-fi issues that disrupt parliamentary business all day long, every day. Paint is Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) peeling off the walls in the basement, revealing the (PC): The Leader of the House will be aware that nine asbestos that it was designed to conceal, at great risk to of the 10 poorest parts of northern Europe are within the health and safety of visitors and Members. There Britain. Are the British Government not missing an are 15,000 people who work in this place, and we have ideal opportunity to decentralise power and wealth more than 1 million visitors a year. We have a duty to away from London and the south-east by relocating this their health and safety. Parliament somewhere else in the UK? There are many mice running freely through the cafés while people are eating. One has even taken up residence Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Gentleman raises a point in my office and rustles around in my bin of an evening. that has been made at various points over the many There is no doubt: we need a cost-effective programme decades that we have been discussing this work. He will of work to restore one of the most famous buildings in appreciate that Parliament is the home of our democracy. the world and the home of our democracy. It is a vast building with two Chambers, all the Committee Rooms, all the offices and so on. Moving away from this Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I Parliament permanently to another location would not commend the Leader of the House for grasping this only involve huge expense, but would require entirely issue, which has been around for many years, and relocating Government, because we in Parliament are progressing it. Does she agree that it is important for within the whole Whitehall set-up, where the Government Members to also engage in the northern estate programme, of the United Kingdom work. The costs would be which is a precursor to the restoration and renewal utterly unbelievable. programme? I draw the House’s attention to two sessions coming up on 11 June and 18 June. At the first, Members’ Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): accommodation will be considered, and at the second, May I take my right hon. Friend back to the point made Members’ facilities will be considered. We want to hear by hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) from Members on that programme as well. about the future use of Richmond House? It was not so many years ago that people were saying that all the Andrea Leadsom: I pay tribute to the right hon. Committee Rooms in Portcullis House were not really Gentleman, who is the spokesman for the House necessary, because we have plenty of Committee Rooms Commission and has supported the work to get this here in the Palace. Actually, they are necessary—they Palace restored. He is right to point to the work under are used a lot, and demand exceeds supply. I think the way on not only Richmond House as the temporary same will be found with Richmond House: when it is decant but the northern estate programme. Unfortunately, given back, and we move back into this place, it will be some of the other buildings used by Members require well used by not only Parliament but the public. urgent upgrades to wiring, plumbing, air conditioning, bomb-proofing and so on. He is right to draw the Andrea Leadsom: My right hon. Friend makes an House’s attention to the need for all Members to provide incredibly good point. In recognising the importance their feedback on our plans to upgrade those buildings. and the obligation of restoring the Palace of Westminster, we have to look at how the temporary decant, which is Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I thank for eight to 10 years, can provide a legacy that we can the Leader of the House for approaching this on a use, that the public can use and that young people cross-party basis and the way she has engaged so far can use for Youth Parliament meetings. We can have with the Finance Committee, of which I am a member. parliamentary archives and permanent exhibitions, and She is right to say that this is a moment of decision. We as he says, Committee Rooms will be available for have had reviews, committees, commissions and reports. all-party parliamentary groups or for members of the It is not a case of going back; it is about making a public to visit their Parliament, so that we have much decision today. I agree with my right hon. Friend the greater accessibility. Those should be the priorities. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field) about austerity, but this is not about austerity or restoring this Palace. It Several hon. Members rose— is about ending austerity and dealing with this Palace. Is that not right? Andrea Leadsom: I will make a bit of progress and then take some more interventions. Andrea Leadsom: I completely agree with the hon. Over the decades, there have been countless water Gentleman; he makes a very good point. We of course leaks, floods, sewage leaks, and lighting and power recognise the needs of the poorest in our society, and as outages, and these incidents are about much more than a Government and a Parliament, we always seek to inconvenience. They demonstrate the rapidly deteriorating alleviate poverty, but this is a very significant issue. We state of the Palace and the increasingly urgent need to want to preserve for future generations our historic act. The restoration of the Palace should have started building, which is a UNESCO world heritage site and literally decades ago, and the House authorities are now the home of our democracy. Frankly, we have to work managing far too many serious risks, at great cost to the from somewhere, and this building is extraordinarily taxpayer. My concern is that the pace of deterioration is difficult and complex to review. I am grateful to the now much faster than our ability to patch and mend. hon. Gentleman for his work on the Finance Committee. 639 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 640 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Andrea Leadsom] Eddie Hughes (Walsall North) (Con): I am expecting my right hon. Friend to get to this point, but I may not This Parliament will have the opportunity to look at be around. [Interruption.] Hang on a second; this may the outline business case, which will set out clearly the be a long way into the future. Once we are decanted, I costs and deliverables during 2021, once we have established would like to think we are going to return. I do not want the Sponsor Body and Delivery Authority in statute. I to think that this place could be turned into some sort hope the House will agree to do that today, so that those of museum that members of the public will come through; bodies can get on with the work to ensure that we get I want it to be a living piece of history to which we will the best value for taxpayers’ money. return. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that that will be the case? Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con): My concern, putting on my hat as chair of the all-party Andrea Leadsom: I certainly hope, and I think all of group on archaeology, is not with what is in the Bill but my right hon. and hon. Friends hope, that my hon. with what is not in the Bill. The Leader of the House Friend will be here when we come back to this place. He will be aware that when the underground car park was is extremely young, and I am sure he will still be around. built some decades ago, proper archaeological conservation Yes, it is in the Bill that this is the home of our did not take place, and part of the old palace of Edward Parliament and that we will certainly be back here. the Confessor was probably lost. Given the importance of the UNESCO world heritage site and the working Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Leader of democratic Parliament that this is, will she strengthen the House is being very generous in giving way. I agree the Bill by taking on board the recommendations from with much of what she has said. The Bill sets up the Historic England about recognising Delivery Authority and the Sponsor Body, and we are “the need to conserve and sustain the outstanding architectural, not going oppose that. She is also right that we need to archaeological and historical significance of the Palace of work from somewhere, and of course we need value for Westminster” money. May I ask her, however, whether she regrets not in the Bill, so that travesties such as that cannot happen going back to look again at a new build in central during the extensive work we now need to undertake? London, which was of course the cheapest of all the options when the original assessments were done? Andrea Leadsom: I am very sympathetic to my hon. Friend’s point. It did in fact come up during the pre- Andrea Leadsom: I would like to take this opportunity legislative scrutiny, which I am keen to come on to. The to pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for his work on decision was taken that this should be a parliamentary the House of Commons Commission. He certainly project, and what the Government are seeking to do in worked very closely with the other Commission members bringing forward the Bill is merely to facilitate the will to consider the options available. I can say to him of Parliament. We are setting up a Sponsor Body, which specifically that, since the appalling terror incident two will be made up of seven parliamentarians and five years ago, a security review has been carried out, and it external members, so that it can establish a Delivery was very clear that parliamentarians, particularly elected Authority.Those bodies—the Sponsor Body in consultation Members of Parliament, need to be within the secure with parliamentarians, and the Delivery Authority in perimeter of the Palace at all times during the day, so consultation with many external stakeholders—will be for reasons of security as well as cost-effectiveness, the able to decide the best way to proceed. It was felt that decision was taken to go with the Richmond House putting restrictions and specific requirements in the Bill development. might tie the hands of the Sponsor Body and the I would now like to make a bit of progress, and Delivery Authority, and we were unwilling to do that. particularly to address the fact that there are some who We want them to have the maximum ability to take want to see this place become a museum. That would things forward in the appropriate way, in consultation not of itself absolve us of our responsibility for restoration with all parliamentarians. and renewal. The Palace is part of the UNESCO Westminster world heritage site. It is our obligation to Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Does my maintain it, and the health and safety concerns of this right hon. Friend agree that there is a case for extending Palace will need to be addressed regardless. Even if we the scope of the Bill to include the road network outside were to move to a new permanent location, these works so that all works can be properly co-ordinated and we would still need doing. We cannot simply wash our can avoid the situation we have now, with the road hands of it. It is also worth remembering that when the closed for non-essential roadworks when both Houses Palace was finished in 1870—with debating Chambers, are sitting? Lobbies, Committee Rooms and offices—it was purpose- built to serve as the home of Parliament. It would Andrea Leadsom: I think my right hon. Friend will obviously be incredibly expensive permanently to relocate garner a lot of sympathy across the House for his view. Parliament elsewhere. It would mean uprooting the Again, we are trying to keep the scope of the Bill very Government Departments and agencies based around narrow. It is merely to facilitate the establishment of the Westminster, and the cost of doing that would, frankly, Delivery Authority for the purpose of restoring the be eye-watering. That is whythe Government are committed Palace. However, he may be aware that consideration is to making progress with R and R, and why we have going on of how, from a security point of view as well supported Parliament in bringing forward this Bill. as from that of facilitating parliamentary business, we can ensure that the roads outside and the arrangements Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) going on in Westminster also support Members in (Lab): Has the Leader of the House actually done any going about their business. assessment of the costs of relocating entire Government 641 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 642 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill Departments out of London? Wanting to relocate civil Andrea Leadsom: I am only just warming up—I have service jobs to other parts of the country has always hours to go. But the hon. Gentleman makes a serious been the Government policy, and surely that would be a point. The question whether to take planning into the good thing to do. Frankly, this entire country ends up Bill was certainly considered, but unlike the Olympic with all its politics being far too London-focused, when Delivery Authority, which I think had four or even five we should be having far more of those jobs in other planning authorities to deal with, this project has one, parts of the country. We would certainly love a lot of and it was felt that working closely with the local them in Yorkshire. I am concerned that she seems to be planning authority would be the most effective way of dismissing the idea of moving Government Departments enabling proper scrutiny while facilitating the Bill’s to other parts of the country without actually have progress. done any proper assessment of that. Several hon. Members rose— Andrea Leadsom: I am slightly disappointed to hear the right hon. Lady’s intervention. This Bill is about Andrea Leadsom: I give way to my right hon. Friend setting up a Sponsor Body and a Delivery Authority to the Member for Meriden. restore the Palace of Westminster, which, as I have just said, we are obliged to do whether or not we stay here. Dame Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): I am taking There is always a considerable amount of work going my right hon. Friend at her word that she is not near the on to assess and analyse the location of various different end of her speech. I thank her for her kind words, but I Government Departments and agencies right around have not so far heard mention of accessibility for those the United Kingdom. Today, however, we are simply with disabilities. The scrutiny Committee felt very strongly looking at the Second Reading of a Bill that enables us about that, not least because two members of the to undertake our legal duty to restore this Palace, Committee themselves suffered from disability, and made whether or not we stay here. It is not for us to consider us aware of just how inaccessible the present Parliament under this Bill the whole of government. I hope that all is for those who are visually or physically impaired. hon. Members will appreciate that we are seeking to facilitate Parliament’s decision that we must take very Andrea Leadsom: My right hon. Friend makes an seriously our financial, fiduciary and cultural duties to absolutely vital point. First, in planning its consultation this place. the Sponsor Body—as I have mentioned, made up of The House was very clear in early 2018 that work seven parliamentarians and five external members—will needed to be taken forward to protect and preserve the look very carefully at the report she has produced, but heritage of the Palace. I want to pay tribute to the hard at the same time the Bill contains very clear provisions work of Members and staff who have got us to this that specific focus on accessibility should be a core part place. In particular, I would like to mention my right of the work. However, we do not want to force too hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline many strictures on the Sponsor Body,which will legitimately Spelman) and her Committee, which undertook pre- have a requirement to consult all Members and take legislative scrutiny of the Bill; the Joint Committee on their views into account before deciding who to consult the Palace of Westminster, which recommended that we further. decant; my predecessors as Leader of the House, my right hon. Friends the Members for Epsom and Ewell Tom Brake rose— (Chris Grayling) and for Aylesbury (Mr Lidington); the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Andrea Leadsom: I want to make a bit of progress, Hillier), who eloquently made the case last year for a then I will give way again. full decant; the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), I also want to acknowledge the right hon. and hon. the right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington Members who, like myself, arrived at this issue with a (Tom Brake) and the shadow Leader of the House, the degree of scepticism, and have since carefully considered hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz), who the issues that we face and concluded that the right agreed to support the Bill; and my right hon. Friend the decision, and the bold decision, is to take action before Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), who we run out of time. So the Bill’s Second Reading today, always speaks with such passion on this issue. and its subsequent passage through both Houses, offers Parliament a unique opportunity to save this iconic Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I have this horrible and, to many, beloved building. feeling that the Leader of the House is winding up or Since becoming Leader of the Commons, I have been coming to the end, and I just want to raise the issue of determined to see the restoration project succeed. In planning. One of the biggest threats to the whole project early 2018, motions were brought before both Houses is if the northern estate programme, which is essential that gave the R and R programme its broad direction, to delivering R and R, ends up by being delayed by with the House agreeing to a full decant over any of the lengthy judicial review or planning problems. The advice other options. That moved the programme forward in seems to have been given that if we include some kind of the most substantial way to date, so the Sponsor Body, planning provision that brings planning into the Sponsor made up of seven parliamentarians and five external Body or the Delivery Authority, that will make this members, was established in shadow form in July 2018. a hybrid Bill. However, the Olympics Bill was not a It is currently taking forward the preparatory works hybrid Bill, and that had a planning provision that was needed. The draft Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration granted to the London Organising Committee of the and Renewal) Bill was published in October 2018, to Olympic Games and Paralympic Games, so why can we enable the governance arrangements needed for the not do the same for this Bill? R and R project to be put in place, and a Joint Committee 643 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 644 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Andrea Leadsom] Commission, which will be responsible for reviewing and laying before the House of Commons the Sponsor under the excellent chairmanship of my right hon. Body’s estimates of expenditure. It is through these Friend the Member for Meriden has undertaken diligent annual estimates that the programme will be funded, work in scrutinising the draft Bill. The Joint Committee and approved by Members of Parliament. In addition, reported on 21 March 2019 and we have taken on board the Bill puts in place a number of financial controls. many of its recommendations. They include requiring the Estimates Commission to consult HM Treasury on the annual estimates for the Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): In the report funding of the R and R programme, and to have regard produced by the Committee that I served on, we suggested to any subsequent advice that it gives. to the Government that there should be a nations and We are confident that the arrangements being put in regions capital fund, to make this a truly UK-wide place will deliver the necessary restoration works, and project. I believe that the Leader of the House will at the same time protect public money. struggle to get the support of public opinion if this is another massive London-centric capital project, so will she agree to have another look at that proposal, which I Tom Brake rose— put forward and which was accepted by the Committee? Andrea Leadsom: I give way to the spokesman for the Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman House of Commons Commission. for his contribution to the Joint Committee. As I said to him outside the Chamber, I will happily look at any Tom Brake: The Leader of the House has referred a proposal that he wants to put forward. Just to be very number of times to the Olympics, which has some clear, however, the Palace of Westminster is a unique, similarities to this project. One reason why that project world-famous building. It is owned by the people of the was so successful was that Tessa Jowell did a fantastic United Kingdom. It is not a London-centric project. It job of engaging all the Opposition parties, securing is one of the most visited and photographed buildings their agreement. Now the Leader of the House is engaging in the world, it has over a million visitors a year, and it is in the same process but, as I understand it, there is absolutely vital for the entire United Kingdom that we about to be a leadership contest in her party. Clearly, if do not allow it to fall to rack and ruin. she becomes leader, she will be committed to this project. Has she secured the support of all the other potential I turn my attention to the Bill before the House. It is leaders of her party, to ensure that the project can reach crucial in establishing the necessary governance completion in 2031 or thereabouts? arrangements to provide the capacity and capability to oversee and deliver the restoration and renewal of the Palace. Both Government and Parliament are determined Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to the right hon. to ensure that the R and R programme represents the Gentleman for raising that point, because of course this best value for money for the taxpayer, and that will be a project is a parliamentary project; it is not a project for guiding principle as we take the Bill forward. It is Government. Very specifically, I have taken steps to imperative that Parliament keeps the costs down. ensure that the Bill will succeed any changes of leadership, any changes of Government, so that we will be back in The Bill will put in place significantly more transparency here in the 2030s, under the sponsorship and leadership and rigour around the funding of this programme. As a of Parliament as a House. The right hon. Gentleman Government, we are working with Parliament to facilitate is absolutely right. Consultation—cross-party, cross- the right combination of checks and balances within House—is absolutely key to the success of this project, the governance structure to properly deliver the programme. because there is no doubt that by the mid-2030s, even The Bill creates a Sponsor Body that will act as the the next leader of the Conservative party may still not client on behalf of Parliament, overseeing the delivery be around. of the R and R programme. The Sponsor Body will form a Delivery Authority as a company limited by Stewart Hosie: I thank the Leader of the House for guarantee to manage and deliver the programme. The what she said about estimates being laid, so that at least design of the governance arrangements in the Bill draws there will be clarity about how much we intend to on best practice from the successful delivery of the spend. However, she will be aware of the difficulty London 2012 Olympics. debating the current estimates, when we can talk about anything except for the actual estimate. May we have an Tom Brake: Will the right hon. Lady give way on that assurance that when these estimates are laid, we will be point? able to discuss the actual sums of money, not simply what they will be spent on? Andrea Leadsom: I shall make a bit more progress, if the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me. Andrea Leadsom: I think I can give the hon. Gentleman However, in formulating the governance arrangements, that assurance. In essence, the Estimates Commission it has been essential that Parliament as the client has will be made up of parliamentarians, with lay member sufficient oversight of the programme. That is why the support, and those estimates will be laid before the Bill also establishes how the works will be approved by House of Commons for debate and approval, with Parliament. In particular, Parliament will be asked to commentary from HM Treasury.Also, the hon. Gentleman approve the overall design, timeline and cost of the should remember that the outline business case, which works, as well as the budget. The Government are will be the initial proposal for deliverables and costs, determined that the work will deliver the best possible will come before Parliament for it to vote on, and that value for taxpayers’money,so the Bill creates the Estimates should take place during 2021. I think I can give the 645 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 646 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill hon. Gentleman the assurance that this House will have help make our workplace the best it can be in supporting the opportunity to vote on, and debate, the finances; Members to balance the long hours they work in this but I will perhaps provide him with further advice on House with their family commitments and better reflect that outside the Chamber, so that I can understand the public we are here to represent. That is just a exactly the point that he is trying to solve. run-through of some of my own views, but I recognise that all Members will have opinions on what they want Sir Edward Leigh: Very briefly, as a correction to the to see delivered as part of R and R. That is why the Bill point that has just been made, following a recommendation includes a specific duty on the Sponsor Body to consult from the Procedure Committee—again, following a long parliamentarians on the strategic objectives of the R and R campaign—we do now discuss estimates on estimates works. days, so that point is not accurate and we can deal with Members across the House will also have views on this during estimates days. the decant to our temporary workplace during R and R. In passing the motions in early 2018, Parliament was Andrea Leadsom: I am grateful to my right hon. clear that as part of R and R it would temporarily leave Friend, but I will still respond to the hon. Member for the Palace, so that the restoration and renewal work can Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) specifically on his point. be done more quickly and more cheaply.

Chris Bryant: Several times, the Leader of the House Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ has referred to the seven parliamentarians who will be Co-op): One concern people have expressed to me, and on the Sponsor Body, but the Bill says no fewer than which we all have concerns about, is mission creep. Will four and no more than eight. The Joint Committee the Leader of the House explain clearly how she sees chaired by the right hon. Member for Meriden (Dame the Sponsor Body and the Delivery Authority ensuring Caroline Spelman) suggested that they should be elected that once the case is set, future generations do not add Members. Should there not be more Members of the in bells and whistles that will cost a lot more? House of Commons than Members of the House of Lords, and would it not be a good idea for them to be Andrea Leadsom: I hope I can assure the hon. Lady elected? that the outline business case will be the project outline. The Estimates Commission will lay the annual estimates Andrea Leadsom: This is a matter for the House to to the House for it to reject or approve. I have no doubt decide. I am talking about seven parliamentarians, because that the hon. Lady’s Public Accounts Committee and that is what is currently on the shadow Sponsor Body. It others, including the National Audit Office, will want to is, of course, for the House to make such decisions. The look very carefully at value for money and to ensure parties put forward their nominees, and that is the that there has not been scope creep. I absolutely accept reason there are four peers and three Members of this the point she makes. This is a parliamentary project, so House. This is precisely a very good example of where it a very important feature will be that Members accept is for the House to decide what structure it wants. With and respect the fact that we are seeking to restore this your permission, Madam Deputy Speaker, I shall make place at the best possible value for taxpayers’ money. a bit more progress. The work on the decant of the House of Commons is at present led by the House authorities and is not the The Bill is not simply about restoring an old building responsibility of the Sponsor Body. I know that many in an urgent state of disrepair. This is about the ambition of those who are engaged with the programme already, we have for a 21st century Parliament, which is more through visiting the booth in Portcullis House and family-friendly and a truly modern workplace. The reading the consultation strategy, will have had their work we are undertaking provides Parliament with the own views and made them known. I have heard plenty opportunity to consider the daily working of the Palace. of positive comments about the innovative and modern It is clear that the programme should seek improvements plans for the temporary Chamber, but there may well be to the Palace for people with disabilities to gain access, something specific that Members would like to see. I but there is also an opportunity to resolve issues with therefore hope that everybody will feed their ideas and long queues at visitor entrances and to offer more views into the consultation on the plans for the temporary inclusive access to Parliament across the country by decant and for the northern estate project. improving some of our broadcasting services. I want to point out that the redeveloped Richmond The work will also provide employment opportunities House will provide a number of potential legacy benefits, right across the UK. The programme will require specialist the first of which relates to business resilience. All skills, which, especially in the heritage sector, tend to major organisations require a contingency plan. The be found in small and medium-sized enterprises. works to Richmond House will provide a more robust Apprenticeship schemes right across the UK will be future resilience plan, making sure that Parliament is able to engage in the work of restoring the Palace. This prepared for business continuity, should it ever be needed, is already happening on other projects being carried out outside the Palace. Secondly, there is no doubt that it on the parliamentary estate, such as the encaustic tile will improve the experience of the more than 1 million conservation project. R and R also offers the opportunity visitors to the parliamentary estate each year. The replica to enhance the experience of students visiting Westminster, Chamber could become a hub for educational facilities, whether through improved educational facilities in the where schoolchildren could learn at first hand how Palace or the opportunities of the Richmond House Parliament works and could hold regular debates. It replica Chamber. could become a home for the Parliamentary Archives, As hon. Members across the House know,I passionately and it could be a location for major parliamentary believe in making Parliament a more family-friendly and other exhibitions. The views of Members will be place to work. R and R will provide an opportunity to very welcome. 647 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 648 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Andrea Leadsom] successors” be established by legislation in due course. The House of Lords approved on 6 February last year a Thirdly, Richmond House is well placed in terms of resolution in identical terms, and this is the Bill we are security. The Murphy review, following the tragic murder debating today. of PC Keith Palmer in 2017, brought home the need for I thank everyone involved in drafting the Bill. It gives a fully secure perimeter around the Palace. Richmond effect to the resolutions voted for by Parliament last House is the only option for decant within that secure year and seeks to establish the statutory bodies that will perimeter. I encourage all Members to provide their be responsible for the restoration and renewal works in views during the consultation on Richmond House, the parliamentary estate. It establishes the governance which is currently under way. However, I want to remind structure within which the bodies will operate. They will Members that the Bill before the House today is not be able to make strategic decisions on the restoration concerned with where we will go while the works take and renewal programme so that the Palace of Westminster place; it solely puts in place governance arrangements can be secured as the UK Parliament for future generations. in order to deliver the vital works to the Palace at the With the establishment of the Parliamentary Works best value to taxpayers. Sponsor Body, the Sponsor Body will have overall To conclude, the time for patching and mending this responsibility for the restoration and renewal programme, place has come to an end. Those of us who are fully act as a single client on behalf of both Houses and be aware of the speed of deterioration of the Palace know empowered to form a Delivery Authority as a company that the sensible and decisive option is to facilitate a full limited by guarantee.The Delivery Authority will formulate restoration project. The choice before the House is to proposals in relation to the restoration works and ensure preserve the Palace of Westminster as the home of the their operational delivery.This two-tier approach, which, UK Parliament for future generations or to keep risking as we have heard, was used in the successful London a catastrophic failure, which I believe would be an Olympics project, is the best structure to deliver a value- unforgivable dereliction of duty. I look forward to for-money programme that commands the confidence hearing today’s contributions, and I commend the Bill of taxpayers and parliamentarians and is accountable to the House. to them. The costs of the project are of concern to all 2.17 pm parliamentarians and the public. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): May I Sir Edward Leigh: I refer the hon. Gentleman to the start by offering the House the apologies of the shadow points made by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead Leader of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for (Frank Field) and the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland Walsall South (Valerie Vaz)? She has a long-standing (Helen Goodman). The hon. Gentleman’s party has personal commitment and has asked me to step in. I campaignedlongandhardonausterity,quiteunderstandably. hope I can be an adequate substitute for her—as always, Of course we have to make this building safe, but does I shall at least do my best. he not think that it might go down rather badly in I pay tribute to the Leader of the House for her Labour heartlands that we are spending huge amounts excellent introduction to the Bill. My understanding is of money on building a permanent replica Chamber, that over the past few months she has brought together which will be a white elephant, when there are cheaper Members from right across the House, in what has been options for a temporary structure? a very difficult process. She has managed to find consensus, and I pay tribute to her for that. Christian Matheson: I thought that the Leader of the In opening the debate on behalf of the Opposition I House answered that fairly during her speech; there will should say that we are pleased to support the Bill, which never be a right time to do this. I am delighted that the has followed a long process of assessing and reviewing right hon. Gentleman has been recruited to join those the state of the Palace of Westminster and of determining of us who oppose the Government’s austerity policies. I how best to proceed. look forward to his joining us in the next Opposition The House debated and voted on restoration and day debate, whenever the Leader of the House grants us renewal on 31 January 2018, and the House agreed that one. I have to say, though, that today is not the day for the Palace of Westminster is in need of restoration and making partisan comments attacking the Government’s renewal. Right hon. and hon. Members will be aware austerity programme. that there are structural, mechanical, electrical, fire safety, We have kicked the can down the road for too long. telecoms and asbestos issues in the Palace of Westminster As a result, I worry that costs are higher than they that need to be resolved. Perhaps I may take this would have been if the job had been done previously. As opportunity, Madam Deputy Speaker, to thank the staff the Leader of the House said, we now have to grab the and the fire officers who have managed to keep the bull by the horns, and her position has my support. show on the road through numerous difficult crises, It is important that the programme provides value for which the Leader of the House outlined. money, but it is also right that we remember that this is Toprotect Parliament from the possibility of irreversible one of the most historic and iconic buildings in the damage, it is vital that the R and R process starts. The world and that preserving that history will come at a Leader of the House referred to the tragedy of Notre cost. The Bill establishes a Parliamentary Works Estimates Dame, but it is worth reminding ourselves that this very Commission. The Estimates Commission will lay the Palace itself was born out of destruction by fire in Sponsor Body’s estimates before Parliament and play a Victorian times—there is historical precedent for taking role in reviewing the Sponsor Body’sexpenditure. Crucially, these measures now. if the anticipated final cost exceeds the amount of By 234 votes to 185, the resolution required that funds allocated for the works, the Estimates Commission “immediate steps be taken”to establish a shadow Sponsor can reject the estimate and require the Sponsor Body to Body and Delivery Authority, and that their “statutory prepare a new one. 649 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 650 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill A Joint Committee, chaired by the right hon. Member ongoing works. In that way, the public are involved in for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman), who is in her their Parliament at all stages and are aware of the place, scrutinised the draft Bill, which was published on process. 18 October 2018. My thanks go to the Committee for The Leader of the House referred to education in her the thorough way in which it has scrutinised the draft opening speech. The Joint Committee said that the Bill and made recommendations. I find myself again Sponsor Body should paying tribute in particular to the right hon. Lady for “take account of ‘the need’ rather than ‘the desirability’ of ensuring her leadership in that work. educational and other facilities are provided in the restored The Joint Committee published its report on 21 March, Palace.” which concluded that But in their response, the Government instead raised “the basic structure of governance proposed by the draft Bill is “the need for the R&R programme to deliver good value for the correct one.” money.” The Government response was published on 7 May, but The Government mentioned “cost”and “value for money” they have not accepted key recommendations of the 13 times each in their 29-page response. Although it is Joint Committee’s report. One of the recommendations important to keep costs in check, it is concerning that was that the Bill does not mandate the refurbishment of education “a Treasury Minister should be an additional member of the facilities and the creation of new outreach spaces.Everyone Sponsor Body”— should take pride in Parliament’s enduring legacy for which it said would education, and young people especially gain a tremendous “underpin the hierarchy of decision making” amount from Parliament’s Education Service, which and serves to inform, engage and empower young people to “provide clarity to those delivering the project”. understand and get involved in Parliament, politics and democracy. The Government did not accept that proposal and insisted on The education centre in Victoria Tower Gardens has “a fundamental role for HM Treasury in being consulted on the been a massive success, as have the outreach services. annual estimates for the funding of the…programme.” Indeed, it was my great pleasure, just this morning, that In our view, that extra person—the Minister—could be children from Blue Coat Primary School in Chester an ad hoc member of the Sponsor Body, attending were visiting the Palace of Westminster and taking when necessary, and would equalise the number of MPs advantage of the educational facilities. The education and peers. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda centre and its facilities and facilitators should have a (Chris Bryant) pointed out, peers have an extra place. secured future both during the works on the northern estate and in the Queen Elizabeth conference centre, Neil Gray: The Opposition spokesperson is making a where the House of Lords will be, and after the works good speech. One of the reasons some of my colleagues are completed. Education about Parliament and democracy on the Committee and I were so keen to insert that line cannot be interrupted. into the report was that part of the success of the Olympic project was that Government bought into and Meg Hillier: I had the pleasure of visiting Montenegro, were right behind it. At the moment, the Leader of the where 50% of all primary school children go through its House is exercised in trying to progress this, but there education centre. Obviously, with a slightly different is nothing that binds the Government in. Although history, they need to learn about democracy. Does my the Chancellor of the day will sign the cheques, it is hon. Friend agree that because the education centre is a fundamentally important for a Treasury Minister to sit temporary building, we need a long-term solution for on that Sponsor Body to make sure that the decision that, and that some of the works at Richmond House making is done properly through the whole process. could plug that gap?

Christian Matheson: I am most grateful to the hon. Christian Matheson: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend Gentleman for that contribution and for emphasising for that suggestion. I had not realised until recently that the point I am making. This is about driving forward it was only a temporary building. It has become such an the process right from the start and getting buy-in important and integral part of Parliament’s work, and across both sides of the House. her suggestion is well made and I hope will be well I will highlight five areas: public engagement; the listened to. education centre; carbon emissions and environmental Let me turn to environmental sustainability. I was sustainability; skills and employment conditions; and delighted that Parliament recently passed the Labour modernisation and heritage. One of the Joint Committee’s party’s historic motion declaring a climate emergency. key recommendations was for public engagement to be It is important to consider the environmental impact of included in the Bill. It recommended that the Sponsor the restoration and renewal works. Designs for the Body should buildings incorporated into the northern estate programme, “promote public engagement with and public understanding of and those being planned for restoration and renewal, Parliament.” emphasise the high efficiency of equipment and operational A response from the Leader of the House and the Leader energy use and electricity as the principal power source, of the House of Lords stated that it would not be based on projections of future grid decarbonisation. “appropriate that this should be part of the Sponsor Board’s The Committee on Climate Change’s report, “Net role”— Zero—The UK’scontribution to stopping global warming”, and that responsibility should lie with Parliament instead. recommends an emissions target of net zero greenhouse In our view, the Sponsor Body has an important role to gases by 2050, and Parliament has a plan for that. I fulfil in engaging the public with its work and the understand that within the necessary constraints of 651 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 652 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Christian Matheson] that has been found to be associated with blacklisting workers and failed to accept its wrongdoing and compensate heritage and conservation planning the refurbishment workers for that treatment should be publicly excluded will support the energy efficiency of the buildings involved, from bidding for these prestigious contracts. This is a using more energy-efficient building fabrics, including, chance for Parliament to express its opposition to the where feasible, in the Palace of Westminster. However, terrible practice of blacklisting, and we should embrace environmental sustainability must now be locked into that chance. the heart of every decision we make. It is incumbent on the Sponsor Body to ensure that The illegal practice of blacklisting is an issue that all areas of the country benefit from this programme. hon. Members have raised in the House, as have I. I London benefits from having Parliament physically located remind the House of my entry in the Register of Members’ here, so the delivery body must ensure that work is fairly Financial Interests: I am a member of and have gratefully shared out across the country—a point that the hon. received support from the Unite and GMB trade unions. Member for Airdrie and Shotts made in an intervention While this is a matter for the Delivery Authority, we on the Leader of the House. I am proud that Donald must remember that the practice of blacklisting is illegal Insall Associates,the country’sleading heritage architectural and has caused untold harm to people’s lives. We have a firm, based in my constituency and led by Tony Barton, wonderful opportunity to invest in people’s futures by is already working as conservation architect on the upskilling them. We can harness the current skills of restoration and renewal project for the Palace and is specialists from around the UK and train and encourage advising on the northern estate. We must ensure that more young people, especially women, into this area. businesses small and large from across the UK have We must also send out the clear message that this is a similar opportunities. prestigious project and that companies that have been Finally, there are many ways in which we can respect involved in blacklisting construction workers will not be the heritage of Parliament and replicate it while modernising welcome to submit bids. I hope that hon. Members on it and making it accessible to everyone. This is a diverse both sides of the House will support this position. nation and people have different needs. There are many people with disabilities that are not overtly visible. We Tom Brake: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his need to be imaginative in working out how this place work on blacklisting. He raises the matter with me can be accessible—for example, to those with autism. regularly. Does he agree that investment in skills must We are told the noise in Portcullis House often reaches be a priority if the UK is not to need to import a lot of very high levels, and this has perhaps not been taken people, probably from the EU, to work on things as into account previously, although it was referred to varied as the carvings, the masonry and the windows? If earlier by the right hon. Member for Meriden. we do not invest in skills now, those people will simply not be there. Hon. Members have made various contributions to the consultation. I am told that my hon. Friend the Christian Matheson: I absolutely agree. I hope we can Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), who has also see this as an opportunity to train people in situ worked hard on bringing the idea of mindfulness to during the project, but someone has to do the training hon. Members and their staff, has asked that hon. Members itself, so we will certainly have to upskill our people. and their staff benefit from a meditation room. These are ways of introducing new ways of working to an Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): As the hon. historic building. Gentleman will be aware, a lot of work is going on and In conclusion, we have a duty to protect this heritage firms are doing exactly that—bringing in apprentices building and world UNESCO site, and the restoration and training them in specialties. I know that because and renewal project will make this a more modern and one of the major firms is in my constituency. compliant place to work with better access facilities for everyone. We can get this right, after so many years of Christian Matheson: It is great to hear that from the kicking the can down the road, so that this place is fit hon. Gentleman. I will come to the question of spreading for future generations. the work around in a moment—the question that the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) raised— 2.34 pm but I am most grateful for that intervention. Dame Caroline Spelman (Meriden) (Con): The fire at Sadly, blacklisting is still rife in the construction Notre Dame was a stark warning that historic buildings sector. There are experienced construction workers and are incredibly vulnerable to catastrophic damage, either others in associated trades who cannot find work today from failure to repair them in a timely fashion or indeed or who are given a job offer only to find it withdrawn during repair itself, although, to be fair to the Government, without explanation a couple of days later. Blacklisting they had decided before that awful tragedy to get cracking wrecks lives, careers and families and damages workplace on this project. It is important for this generation of health and safety.When McAlpine was given the Elizabeth MPs to note that this should have been started many Tower and Big Ben contract, it caused consternation decades ago. For the benefit of members of the public, because it had been up to its neck in blacklisting. Many some of whom are watching in the Gallery, I should large construction companies were part of the cabal of explain that the difficulty for parliamentarians in starting firms associated with the Consulting Association and this project has been that it is difficult at any time for us faced legal action from trade unions on behalf of the to argue the case for spending money on our place of blacklisted members. Numerous of those have now work. This is not any old place of work, however; it is a admitted their culpability and paid into a compensation world heritage site, and this is a once-in-a-lifetime scheme, but several others have failed to do so. I shall opportunity to restore it and renew it—two words of press the simple case that any construction company equal importance. 653 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 654 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill I was honoured to be asked to chair the draft legislative member of the Committee, the microphones went off. Committee on the Bill and was blessed in the composition Even for those who do not, as far as we know, have any of its membership. Its members were very knowledgeable hearing difficulties, it was at times very difficult to hear and played an active part, some of them providing the evidence that was being presented. Such barriers to continuity, having come from other Committees that the ability to work in a place that requires everyone to had already worked on the project, meaning we did not be able to access it put people off working here, serving just reinvent the wheel. here, and putting their names forward as parliamentary What caused me most concern was the length of time candidates. As we restore and also renew Parliament, before Parliament could decant and work begin in we must make really sure that those barriers are removed. earnest. It was on 1 February 2018 that Parliament The inaccessibility of the building to those with voted in favour of a total decant. It came as a shock to disabilities is a wrong that urgently needs to be put the Committee, however, when initially we heard that right, and it must be addressed during the decant. I am the decant might be delayed until as late as 2028, which talking not about the building that we will eventually would be a full decade after parliamentarians took the have, but the temporary building. Beyond that, however, decision to get out completely to make sure the work we need to give expression in this legislation to the could be done most cost-effectively. Our concern is public’s desire to be better served by their Parliament. whether the buildings can function sustainably for the To that end, there needs to be extensive consultation. length of time it will take to decant. That will be part of the role of the Sponsor Body, but it has not escaped us as parliamentarians—and this is, as Meg Hillier rose— much as anything, for the benefit of the public—that Dame Caroline Spelman: I am willing to decant. MPs are not in good odour in the country, and the work of Parliament is coming in for a lot of criticism. People Meg Hillier: I think we are all willing to decant, so have views on how they want to see Parliament working that is good news. I thank the right hon. Lady for her better. There is no better opportunity than this project chairmanship of the Committee,whose work was concluded for us to consult them on the kind of changes that they with dispatch but thoughtfulness. She will be glad to want, and, as far as possible, to determine how we can know,hot off the press,that the Public Accounts Committee deliver them. has received a letter from the permanent secretary at the The main reason for the delay is the chosen plan for Ministry of Defence that should speed up our departure the decanting of Parliament to a replacement building because we have now, I hope, resolved the issue of the on the site of the present Richmond House. Because MOD car park. Richmond House is a listed building, it will be more difficult to demolish and rebuild it under planning law. Dame Caroline Spelman: Yes, I was very pleased to The Committee took the view—which I am sure was hear that news hot off the press. It is very significant. correct—that under the Bill as it stands, Parliament is For the benefit of others hon. Members, I should not taking separate planning powers to itself for this explain that the potential hold-up caused by our not purpose, but will be subject to the same planning regime being able to access the car park belonging to the MOD as everyone else. Wewere told, however,that the demolition could have added three years to the project and resulted and rebuilding of Richmond House would cause some in an estimated additional cost of £350 million. I am delays, as there would inevitably be strong objections delighted that common sense has prevailed. None the from those who value its heritage. This is not a “ready less, that still means, on the evidence the Committee to roll” solution. The decant to Richmond House also was given, that we cannot decant until 2025, which is requires some of the footprint of what is known as the six years hence. northern estate,which is presently undergoing refurbishment As the Leader of the House said, there have already and will not be available for some time. I am glad that been some near misses, with falling masonry and leaks— the Government have accepted the Committee’s including one in this Chamber that interrupted proceedings. recommendation for the “rolling together” of those who As a working environment, it is far from ideal for the are overseeing those repairs with the Sponsor Body, staff, who outnumber parliamentarians in this place because that would surely optimise our ability to complete and often spend more days per year in Parliament the work at speed. grappling with the practical difficulties of a building In the light of the Notre Dame fire, I urge the that is deteriorating—quite apart from the rather depressing parliamentary authorities to review the list of decant impact of working somewhere that feels like a building site. options that they discarded before deciding on the For visitors, the experience is also unsatisfactory as demolition and rebuilding of Richmond House. As I large parts of the buildings are covered in scaffolding have said, it is not a “ready to roll” option. I appreciate and hoardings that make them inaccessible and, as I that a primary reason for its selection was the security hear manytourists commenting, unattractive to photograph of all who visit and work on the parliamentary estate, when people have come all the way to do just that. and I am very grateful for that concern for our lives. As I said earlier, the members of the Committee However, other buildings in the vicinity are considered included parliamentarians with disabilities. I am sure secure enough to host international conventions with that Lord Blunkett and Lord Stunell will not mind—I high-profile participants, and all the options still require have already spoken to them about this—if I pay tribute staff, parliamentarians and visitors to walk to and from to the way in which they made us aware just how the site of the parliamentary decant building in any difficult it is to work in this place. We have practical event. That security risk cannot be avoided. The Committee experience of that, having moved from Committee Room was concerned by the implicit view that the Queen to Committee Room for our hearings. There are hearing Elizabeth II Conference Centre is deemed safe enough loops in some of those rooms, but we found in practice for peers to use, but not MPs. I found that distinction that when a loop was switched on for a hearing-impaired between categories of parliamentarian rather strange. 655 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 656 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Dame Caroline Spelman] United Kingdom. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) for speaking up for the As the Second Church Estates Commissioner, I wrote devolved nations—all of them—because every part of the to the Leader of the House asking why Church House United Kingdom must benefit from this. As others have had been rejected as a decant option, given that it had pointed out, that was an important feature of the Olympics. been the default decant option for 40 years and had set I remember visiting a small business in the north-west an historical precedent, having been used by Churchill of England in the aftermath of the Olympics. Its owner as Prime Minister during the second world war to told me proudly that it had produced one of the features decant both Houses at different times. I have a simple that helped to make the buildings in the Olympic Park way of approaching the issue: if Church House was more sustainable. That had the knock-on effect of creating good enough for Churchill, it ought to be good enough and sustaining jobs in the business, and it meant that for us. Moreover, Churchill was kind enough to oversee people benefited well beyond the environs of Westminster. the installation of a bomb-proof roof over the Chamber This project must do exactly the same, and—as the hon. and a blast wall around it. However, I am no security Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) pointed expert, and I must acknowledge that the security threats out—it must offer apprenticeship opportunities to both that we face in the modern age may be subtly different men and women, so that part of the legacy is an from those that were experienced during world war two. increase in the number of people with the skills that are May I ask the Leader of the House to think once more needed to restore heritage assets throughout the UK. about the options that might enable us to decant more Those skills are currently in short supply. swiftly? Let me also correct a possible misapprehension. The Committee also received evidence from Historic When I wrote to her, I was envisaging not a temporary England, which asked us to amend the Bill to make building in Dean’s Yard, but a straight swap between specific reference to heritage. Parliament is a world the whole of Church House—which has room for heritage site so the need to conserve the outstanding 460 employees—and Richmond House. I have another architectural, archaeological and historical Palace of addendum: when we decant, can we please ensure that Westminster should be explicit. I believe this is crucial we still have the chapel facility that we currently enjoy in because, as Historic England points out, heritage the Undercroft? conservation should be within the scope of sustainable I am grateful for the acceptance of a number of the development which underpins the planning system. It is Committee’srecommendations,includingtherecommendation not about preserving this place as a museum; it is about for the merging of the present works committee on the making sure that its unique historical significance has a northern estate with the Sponsor Body proposed in the sustainable future. The Government agreed to give this Bill. That is good, and may help to accelerate the project. further detailed consideration. However, we also recommended that a Treasury Minister The Church of England has to balance the twin should be appointed to the Sponsor Body, because it is demands of heritage and future sustainability all the taxpayers’ money that will be used, and the Treasury time. People are often unaware of how we make cathedrals will have every interest in keeping an eye on the costs more sustainable with solar panels on the roof—which and value for money of the project. Today I received a people cannot see—and renewable energy features that letter on that subject from the Prime Minister, and I people benefit from in not sitting in a cold church think it is worth sharing her response with the House. building. People often think it is impossible to do these She points out that there are things with listed buildings, but that is simply not true. “financial safeguards” in the Bill, and adds: Historic England has been very supportive of efforts to “This includes a fundamental role for HM Treasury in being make these heritage assets sustainable and we should do consulted on the annual estimates for the funding of the R&R. As everything possible to improve the sustainability of the part of this process” Palace as part of this project. —this is the important bit— The evidence given by the head of the church buildings “any comments made by HM Treasury on the annual estimate division of the Church of England to the Committee must be laid before Parliament.” urged Parliament to become what she called an “intelligent So we shall be able to see the Treasury’s response, but client” by asking hard questions in timely fashion and we must be able to debate it as well. I should be happy being disciplined about not interfering with the project to hear the Leader of the House confirm that later. in ways that lengthen it and add cost unnecessarily. I I think that a political figurehead will be needed to encourage all Members to heed this advice as the restoration answer questions in the House, after the model of the and renewal of these great buildings gets under way. late Dame Tessa Jowell, whom we will eternally remember Most of us are, I think, unlikely still to be here when the with gratitude for the success of the Olympics. I am sure project completes but this should reinforce our efforts that the Leader of the House would do that just as well, to get it absolutely right for future generations so that but to deliver continuity it would need to be done by the we can answer any future criticism and say that we gave office holder rather than the person. Given the length of this our very best endeavours. time that the decant and the construction will take, it is The Government are to be congratulated on grasping important that we do not suffer a corporate loss of the nettle where previous cohorts of politicians shrank memory in the process. I hope that the Leader of the from the task, and I hope the Bill, as amended, will be House will be that figurehead, and that her successors passed speedily through both Houses to get a long overdue will take on the role with equal enthusiasm in the model project under way. that she has demonstrated. We must bear in mind that the Bill covers both 2.51 pm restoration and renewal. We must not slip into the short- Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Of hand of talking just about restoration. It is also important all the things this House can do to endear itself to the for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to serve the whole good people of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, 657 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 658 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill spending billions of pounds on renovating the place Pete Wishart: I have to say very candidly to my hon. where we, the Members of Parliament, do our work Friend that I have given up trying to second-guess what probably, just about, would not make the top 10. In this Conservative party says about anything when it these days of austerity and with us still going through comes to spending in this country. all the horrors and psychodramas of this crazy Tory I think the people of the United Kingdom will now Brexit it almost seems like it is designed to intentionally be trying to figure out how many schools and hospitals wind up the good people of this country. So I sincerely £4 billion to £6 billion could build, and I am pretty wish this House all the very best in trying to sell this to a certain that all other Members will be reminded of that sceptical and, frankly, had-enough nation. right up until their posteriors return to these restored Meg Hillier: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and renewed green Benches. Pete Wishart: I have barely started, but I will give way Sir Edward Leigh: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? given that the hon. Lady is Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Pete Wishart: Of course I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman. Meg Hillier: The hon. Gentleman is critical of spending money on the UK Parliament so it amuses me that there Sir Edward Leigh: Just so the hon. Gentleman knows, are colleagues of all of ours up the road, as he would I agree with him: every £100 million we spend on this say, in a wonderful, splendid modern Parliament building permanent replica Chamber is £100 million less for teachers that cost the taxpayer quite a lot of money. and doctors and nurses and all the rest. I just want the hon. Gentleman to know that I am fully on his side. Pete Wishart: I will say two things to the hon. Lady. [Interruption.] She is already hearing a chorus on one Pete Wishart: It is always curious what we pick up in of them: it cost less than Portcullis House. And if she the way of allies when we are going through particular wants to know about the difficulties in designing a issues and projects. I am grateful to the right hon. Parliament and creating a Parliament she only needs to Gentleman for making that additional comment. look at the experience of the Scottish Parliament. That was one of the first pieces of work that the Scottish Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Parliament went into, and I can tell the hon. Lady that (LD): It just so happens, as I will touch on in my own it was not particularly easy; there was real discontent contribution, that I was on the Holyrood progress group, about it. That is what this House and Members will which was in charge of building the Scottish Parliament experience; that is what they have got to look forward building, and I can remember the sound and the fury to, because they will have to try to sell this to a sceptical and the brickbats that came my way, John Home nation, and I wish them all the very best. Robertson’s way and Linda Fabiani’s way as we proceeded On that, let me declare an interest—or maybe a with the project, yet I am bound to say this: I think my disinterest. Me and my colleagues do not intend to be SNP friends will agree that now that the building is here at the end of the process. finished Scotland is extremely proud of it and nobody mentions the price any more—and I for one am proud Meg Hillier: Labour gains. to have been involved in building such a landmark in Pete Wishart: I was going to tell a few jokes in my Scotland’s history. speech, but I think we have heard the funniest one already: the idea of the Labour party gaining any seats from the Pete Wishart: I am tempted to say, “So it’s all his fault Scottish National party is the best joke we will hear. then,” but I will not do that—and I stress that I only Let me declare my disinterest: me and my SNP colleagues said that in jest before the hon. Gentleman gets all are not going to be here. We are probably not even shirty. He is absolutely right: the Scottish Parliament going to be here at the commencement of the project had a tortuous progress, and I commend the hon. given its tortuous progress. So we will let other Members Gentleman because I know he served on that group get on with their vital restoration and renewal work while with distinction and hard work, and that project was we get down to the business of restoring and renewing down to those people who designed all of that. We our beautiful country in the shape of the priorities of should not forget, however, the fuss that was created for the Scottish people. a very modest building that cost less than Portcullis House. I like the fact that those in charge of this call it restoration and renewal—R and R. Who doesn’t like a We are talking about something that it is said will bit of R and R? Everybody likes that. If they called it cost £4 billion to £6 billion, but nobody actually believes the restoring of a Parliament for the Members of Parliament it will cost that; it is never going to cost £4 billion. Most of this country I am sure they would have a few more people suspect that that figure will come in at closer to difficulties in trying to explain that to the people of this £10 billion or £12 billion, and that is before we even find country.And good luck to them in defending the £4 billion out all the different things that will be underneath as we to £6 billion that they will have to spend on restoring start to dig under. We have already heard about Edward and renewing this place. the Confessor; that was just in the car park of this building. Goodness knows what else will be discovered Jonathan Edwards: My hon. Friend may recall that and the archaeological programmes that will be undertaken. when the National Assembly for Wales had a new So I salute the other Members of this House in their building the cost was £60 million, and the Conservative bold and courageous move and look forward to them party in particular ran a full-scale campaign against selling this to the people of this nation; and from afar that expenditure, yet it seems very relaxed about spending we will be watching and wishing them all the best as well over £5 billion on this Parliament. they get down to restoring and renewing this building. 659 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 660 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Pete Wishart] member of that commission. Let me make it clear that we are all for moving out of this place—of course we But I agree that this building is falling down and are. We have to move out. It would be ridiculous to try becoming a hazard to all those who work here. Decades to stay in a place that is practically falling down and of neglect and indecision have seen to that. Anybody that is infested with vermin. It is no place for our who stands still for a moment in this place now stands a visitors to come to and it is imperative that we should very good chance of being hit by falling masonry. It is move. so overrun with vermin that even the mice in this place I am coming on to talk about what I think we should now wear overalls. Because of decades of prevarication be moving out to, and what we should do to ensure that this building is practically falling down. The failure of we get value for money, because that is the key feature successive Governments to face up to their responsibilities in our discussions today.We know that this very technical means we now have a building that could face a catastrophic and mechanical Bill provides for the governance of the failure or massive fire at any time. project, but it is very much caught up in the whole idea Everyone has drawn the comparisons with Notre of how we present a modern Parliament in the future. Dame and that is right. The Leader of the House has given that example in her many comments on this; she Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): My hon. has said the example of Notre Dame shows why this is Friend is right to say that no one is arguing against now imperative. But there are key differences between spending any money whatsoever. This is about achieving this House and that cathedral on the Seine: one is a value for money and doing the right thing. Let us look building where people think they speak to God and the at the new Scottish Parliament, with its new, modern other is Notre Dame cathedral. Chamber that is accessible to everyone; it has electronic It will probably not come as a great surprise to learn voting and even has normal daylight coming in. That is that me and my SNP colleagues do not share the same what that money was spent on. What is being proposed dewy-eyed affection and nostalgia that some Members here is simply to do everything up but keep it exactly the feel towards this place. I have to say that I personally same, even though it is not fit for purpose. love this building. It is a truly iconic building, and it is a real pleasure and privilege to work in it; walking down Pete Wishart: That is the key point. Why are we Victoria Street to work I feel a sense of pride that I am taking this place apart, only to reassemble it in the same coming to work in what is a fantastic building. But I way and do the same old bad things in the same old have to say that I could probably just about discharge venue? It is so unimaginative. Whoever presented this my responsibilities as a Member of Parliament from idea really must have been up all night thinking about somewhere else. it, mustn’t they? “Let’s just come back to the same place This is a beautiful building, but it comes with particular that we are going to be leaving! And when we leave this historical baggage. It was very much associated with a place temporarily, let’s just create a carbon copy for us height of empire when it was built, and with some of to use before we come back to this place!” That makes the worst excesses of global imperialism, which we have absolutely no sense. to concede was a feature of the 19th century United When I look around this building, I get a sense that it Kingdom. It is a building that is ingrained with 19th-century is a sad metaphor for Brexit Britain. It is dilapidated, power relationships, and with a historical cap-doffing, falling to bits around our ears and unloved, and it could forelock-tugging culture. We even have one part of the go up in flames at any minute. Is that not a truly building where we refer to people as lords and ladies, fantastic representation of the Brexit Britain that we are and we actually think that is okay! What type of building heading towards? Perhaps this Parliament and this building is this that creates this kind of culture? If we are serious are exactly what this country deserves. The Leader of about being a new, modern 21st-century Parliament, we the House is right to say that we have to move out, for should have a building that reflects these new ambitions the sake of the thousands of people who work here and aspirations. We should not be trying to shoehorn and the many visitors who come here. It is for them that Parliament into a mock-Gothic Victorian tourist attraction. we must move out, but to move out simply to come Why are we not thinking properly about this? back to the same building, with all its cultural and Andrea Leadsom: I always love the hon. Gentleman’s historical trappings, is a serious mistake. banter, but I must gently point out to him that the hon. It is a real pity that we were not listened to when we Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) is a member were going through all these Committees, when we of the House of Commons Commission, and I remember proposed selling this building off to the private sector. feisty discussions in which I was worrying about the People would be queuing up and biting our arm off to value for money for taxpayers and the hon. Member for get hold of a place like this. It is a UNESCO site and Dundee East was insisting that the money must be one of the most iconic buildings in the world. They spent and that we had to get on with the project. The would be fighting each other to get their hands on it. hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Selling it off to the private sector would obviously save Wishart) is telling a slightly different story now, but it is us billions of pounds on the redevelopment costs. We his Scottish National party colleague on the House of could then move out to a new building that would meet Commons Commission who wants this work to go our requirements as a modern 21st-century democracy. ahead. It would meet all the security arrangements that we obviously need, and it would actually accommodate Pete Wishart: The Leader of the House is right in one all 650 Members, which is more than can be said for this respect. My hon. Friend the Member for Dundee East place. Why was this not thought about seriously? was the Scottish National party member of the House I think it is a huge deficiency that that was not done. of Commons Commission, but I am now the new My hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and Shotts 661 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 662 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill (Neil Gray) tried to ensure that that proposal was vaguely costed at about £500 million, and that it will properly considered in the Committee, but it was not then become some sort of education centre. That has even given the time of day. The House has definitely let not yet been specified, so we are not too sure about the country down by not considering it. what will happen there. Let us imagine what would happen if we did sell this However, the plan seems to be to create a carbon place off. I would like to see it become a museum to copy of this place in Richmond House. Have we all seen British democracy, where people could come and be the photographs of this? I am looking round, and I see amused by how Members of Parliament behaved and that most Members have done so. It will be almost did their business in the early 21st century, braying like exactly the same as this place. What is the point of that? perfidious donkeys on speed to show their approval What is the point of moving all this somewhere else for because they are not allowed to clap, and wandering six years, only for that place to become something else around in circles for hour after hour just to register again? Why are we not using this opportunity to do their decisions on what happens in this place. People something more imaginative? Why are we not thinking would laugh out loud at the fact that Members referred about all the difficulties that we have in this place, to themselves as “honourable” and “right honourable”. including our laborious processes and the ridiculous I can just imagine the joy and amusement that would be and silly conventions? Apparently it is even the job of brought to visitors from around the world who came to the Speaker to dress the male Members of this House! a museum of British democracy here in the House of How about looking at some of the ridiculous, absurd Commons on this UNESCO site. It was a failure of things that waste our time and get in the way of how we diligence of the House not to consider that option. approach our business in this House? Why can we not We now have this Bill, based on decisions that were go away for a few years and do things like a 21st-century taken last year. The Leader of the House was right to Parliament? What is wrong with that? What is wrong say that it is all about the governance involved. It with the idea of going to the northern estate, doing creates the Parliamentary Works Sponsor Body, and we something different and then coming back here? Members will also have the Delivery Authority, which will operate can then come back to this 19th-century palace and get as a company limited by guarantee. This is reminiscent on with their usual business, but it shows such a lack of of the London Olympics, but I was here when the imagination. London Olympics were first being considered, and I can tell the Leader of the House that the way in which the Sir Edward Leigh: I know that the hon. Gentleman is Olympics Delivery Body was shaped was not exactly a having fun, but there is a kernel of truth in that. One positive experience for us in Scotland, or for Wales and reason why they are having to demolish Richmond the regions of the United Kingdom. House is that the House authorities insisted that they What I remember about the way in which the London wanted a Chamber of exactly the same size and these Olympics were designed was that we got next to nothing very wide division Lobbies, which means that we have in the way of contracts. Large sums of our lottery to demolish a whole listed building. If we had modern money were diverted to pay for activity down here, voting during the temporary decant, as they do in every and there were years of wrangling over the Barnett other Parliament in Europe, and just had a card to put consequentials. The Government attempted to define next to a machine, we would not need the Division the spending in London to build all that activity as Lobbies, and we would not need to demolish Richmond UK-wide spending. If I remember correctly, it was only House. following the intervention of the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that this was eventually Pete Wishart: I am warming to the right hon. Gentleman. resolved in a Joint Committee. That experience was not That makes it two interventions in a row that contained good for us, and that is why my hon. Friend the Member practically nothing to disagree with. Alliances are building for Airdrie and Shotts has to be supported. This has to up all over the place and—who knows?—we might be a project for the whole of the United Kingdom. We actually be able to make some progress when it comes to were all shocked by what happened at the Olympics, modernising this place and making it look and feel like and this new project has to be seen to be of real benefit something belonging to this century, not the 19th century. for the nations and regions of the UK. I hope that when I am pretty certain that he is already thinking, “I’m the Bill goes into Committee, my hon. Friend will be going to vote for this guy for Speaker,” because that is listened to carefully and patiently—[Interruption.] The the sort of agenda that I will be putting forward. We hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) need proper reform of this place, and it cannot come says he wants to be listened to as well. I think we have quick enough. I am looking forward to support from an alliance here, and knowing him and my hon. Friend right across the House for that agenda. the Member for Airdrie and Shotts, it would be a Madam Deputy Speaker, I can see that I am wearing formidable one that would obviously deliver what we your patience a little thin, so I will end by saying that want. I look forward to them getting substantial and the SNP will not oppose the Second Reading this evening. solid results. I see that the Leader of the House is I hope that some of our modest suggestions and proposals perhaps wondering how she will be able to take them on will be at least considered—even just for the temporary to ensure that we all get the right results. decant. There is no reason why we cannot do things a We have no issue with the northern estate programme. little differently and be a bit more imaginative in how Looking at the plans for Richmond House, it is hard to we do our business. We could have a look and see whether see how any alternative could be designed. I know it was our absurd conventions actually have any value and a hard job to figure out where we would go, and I do work for us. Let us redesign how we work in this place. not think there is any issue about how this should be We will be watching just how much the project is done. Richmond House was the right choice. Looking going to cost, because I must say again that this is not at the figures, I see that the works there have been going to go down well. I do not think that the public 663 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 664 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Pete Wishart] Sponsor Body operating. Its members were appointed through a proper system, and I do not favour the idea of have actually caught on to this yet—they might have reappointments, because a lot of work has already been done after my speech—and I do not think that they have done. really realised what this House is doing with this money. I fully accept that we must keep a close eye on the If the price tag is going to be £10 billion to £12 billion, I cost of this building, but I also look to the example of can only foresee difficulties, problems and issues as the what happened when Portcullis House was built. There process progresses through the House. Best of luck with was a lot of criticism about the cost. It did not help that it all. The SNP will not oppose the Bill tonight. We will it was built above Westminster station, which added a try to get something for the nations of the UK and lot of extra variables, but look at how the building is regions of England, and I hope that the House considers used today. It is a solid part of Westminster, and it is that as the Bill goes through Committee. always in heavy demand when Parliament is sitting—the rooms where Committees meet and the larger meeting 3.12 pm rooms—and we can face problems when a group of Sir Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales) (Con): I schoolchildren comes down, for example. The situation am grateful to be called to speak in this debate, which has got better, but it is still quite difficult to book a relates to an issue that nobody really wants to address. I room. take the point made by the hon. Member for Perth and The Leader of the House has been incredibly patient North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) about the cost of the and good at listening and taking on board all the programme. Nobody likes the cost, but the truth of the representations. When we had the debate a few months matter is that if a building of this nature was in private ago about whether to decant, it was interesting that all ownership, we would be demanding that the private the previous Leaders of the House voted for the decant. owners did the repairs and brought it up to standard. Every single one of them voted for it in a Division that This building is important not just for the United was completely free for Government Members. Given Kingdom, but for the world. I welcome the Bill, and I my right hon. Friend’s views on public spending on big welcome the Leader of the House’s commitment to projects, which I will perhaps leave to one side at the getting on with the job, as it has been pushed to the side moment, I can well understand why she was very reticent for far too long because it has been too difficult. to say, “Let’s decant. Let’s move out. Let’s do it that I understand the opposition and dislike of my colleagues way.” who would prefer us not to decant. However, anybody However, one just has to look at the problems, at who visits the basement to see the conditions down what is going on around the House at the moment, and there—electrical pipes running next to gas pipes and air at all the work that is going on year in, year out. Lots of conditioning pipes—would not want to work down that work cannot take place at the moment, because it there for very long. Anybody who opposes this move would make places inaccessible. I reluctantly came around should be sent to work down in the basement for six to the decant idea, but I was previously of the view—I weeks—six hours would probably be quite sufficient. partly regret this, but I understand why it has not been However the decision is not just about the basement. done—that we should take planning powers and become The fire safety systems are antiquated, and fire officers our own planning authority. I recognise that thought are required to patrol the Palace 24 hours a day to be on has been given to that and that we have decided not to the lookout for fires. Some of the essential mechanical go down that particular route, and I accept that. However, and electrical services are up to 130 years old, such as the simple fact is that this is an island building. We are the heating, drainage, lighting, water, ventilation and employing the Sponsor Body and using the best available communications. Repairs are needed to Victoria Tower advice for how to do not only a proper renewal job but to preserve our Parliamentary Archives, which holds a restoration job. This is a building that we wish to millions of records. I hope that a new home will eventually protect not just for our generation, but for generations be found for some of those archives, because that could to come. Now that the scaffolding has been removed be an important part of the building in the future. from the north face of Big Ben, people can see the The Palace was built using Anston limestone, which difference made to the clock. I hope future Parliaments quickly began to decay, and little was done to prevent and future generations will make sure to keep on top of its decline during the 19th century. The Bill and the the restoration project once it has been completed. associated proposals address something that has been Members said earlier, “Leave it for a little while, put to one side for years. Asbestos, which was used because we have had enough of austerity and we should extensively during the post-war rebuilding period, is not do this.” This project will take six years to get under present throughout the building and obviously needs to way. Even now, a lot of the work on this project is not be replaced. The vast majority of the Palace’s4,000 bronze about the bricks and mortar part of the job, nor the windows do not close properly, letting water in and heat decant, but about the planning process. It is about out. Many of the historic parts of the Palace are at making sure that we get the equipment and materials significant risk. right so that we can look back on the project and say, This programme is the right course of action, and “Yes, they did make it right. They did get the aesthetics setting up a Sponsor Body to liaise with the House and right. They did get the building right.” with the authorities in both Houses is the kind of thing The one thing I always point out to my constituents that we need. However, turning to schedule 1 to the Bill, when they come down to Portcullis House is that the I wonder whether my right hon. Friend the Leader of stone is from the Ann Twyford quarry in Birchover in the House is wedded to the fact that the people who are my constituency. Portcullis House is a fine building we already on the Sponsor Body should not be there for the are proud of. Once the restoration of this building is next five years. It has taken a long time to get the done, I want to make sure it is in a similar position. 665 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 666 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill 3.20 pm the beginning of the 11th century. It is bizarre that The Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I warmly commend Times has its office in a portakabin on the roof of this the right hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales (Sir Patrick building. We would laugh at any other country in the McLoughlin) for his speech, and we now move from the world that looked after a UNESCO-listed building in dales to the valleys. I think he and I would agree that, as such an appalling way. the Leader of the House said, when we first looked at The cloisters, one of the most beautiful parts of the restoration and renewal—I first looked at it in 2008 building, are completely hidden to the vast majority of when I was Deputy Leader of the House—we saw it the public. They were built by Henry VIII, and who with a sceptical eye. I represent one of the poorest knows whether Thomas Cromwell, Oliver Cromwell or constituencies in the land, and I would love to see large whoever else kept their horses in there? It does not amounts of money spent on infrastructure projects in matter,because the truth is that this beautiful perpendicular my constituency to improve the national health service architecture is falling apart on our watch as we simply and to save people from the food bank existence that do not have the capacity to do all the work that needs to many in work still have to pursue. The truth is that this be done to the building at the same time. is not either/or but both/and. We have to tackle the We have dragged our heels. They may be beautiful poverty in our land and we have to make sure that this heels, but they have been dragged for far too long. I am building is put right. delighted that the Leader of the House, perhaps seizing I know the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire the moment after the terrible fire at Notre Dame, which (Pete Wishart) wants to live in this building, however brought home the fact that a building is at most danger horrible he was about it, and my one major difference of fire during such work—exactly the situation in which with him is that I do not think we can just sell the we find ourselves—is taking advantage of the moment building as it would no longer be the icon that it to put on her wellington boots and stomp over to currently is. Every Hollywood movie filmed in London, Downing Street to say that now is the time to bring if it wants to show the United Kingdom, shows this forward the Bill. I am enormously grateful to her for building. The building would no longer be that icon if it doing that. were just a hotel. Frankly, I do not think anyone would want to take on the building on a commercial basis We have already made some decisions, and I know unless we had already sorted out the plumbing, the people will want to review and revise those decisions electricity and all the mechanical engineering. In actual endlessly into the future. The right hon. Member for fact, it would be more expensive for us to find a completely Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) did a good job of alternative venue, rather than to make this building good. making sure that the Joint Committee on the Draft Parliamentary Buildings Bill did not keep on revising Meg Hillier: My hon. Friend is making an excellent the decisions we have already decided. One of the things point. Does he agree that, as the building is a UNESCO we have decided is that we will move out in one fell world heritage site, it is the responsibility of the swoop and that we will come back. That does not Government, through the Treasury, to fund the work or necessarily mean that every single aspect of the Chamber to make sure it happens? will look exactly as it looks now. We have to make sure this Chamber has proper Chris Bryant: Absolutely, and the point has been disabled access. That will be complicated but, as the made many times not only by my hon. Friend but by the Joint Committee heard, there are many churches across Public Accounts Committee, which she chairs, that this the land that have had to deal with precisely these issues is a cost-saving measure, rather than something to our and have done so very beautifully and elegantly in a way detriment. that meets all the statutory requirements while respecting The Leader of the House mentioned many of the the history, the tradition and the architectural beauty of problems in the building, including the falling masonry the places concerned. I am sure we can do that in this and the danger of fire, but I want to start with the Chamber so that, for instance, a Clerk would be able to stench. Maybe this year more than any other, but the sit at the Table in a wheelchair, if necessary. Or, for that stench on the Terrace, on the Principal Corridor and in matter, an hon. Member in a wheelchair would not have the basement rooms is absolutely appalling because the to sit at the Bar of the House but could sit somewhere building’s drainage system is from 150 years ago. There else—they could even be a Minister, a shadow Minister is a beautiful piece of Victorian engineering down in the or the Speaker. All these things should be obvious to us basement underneath the Speaker’s garden, but it is not today. fit for the 21st century. We need to be doing these things Other Members have already mentioned the issues better. for partially sighted people. Some years ago when I sat For that matter, as my hon. Friend the Member for on the Joint Committee on the Palace of Westminster, City of Chester (Christian Matheson) said admirably which my right hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and from the Front Bench, we need to get to a place where Deeside (Mark Tami) might mention later, one of the all the energy we consume in this building is used things that came home to me most strongly is that the efficiently and is carbon neutral. That will be possible dim lighting in this building makes it particularly difficult only if we have a major renewal of the mechanical for people with partial sight to feel confident as they go engineering aspects of the building, which will be 75% of around the building, to read papers and to take part in the bill. discussions and debates. That obviously affects Members I sometimes feel we are like King Canute trying to of both Houses. prevent the sewage from climbing up the stairs towards We have also decided that we will decant to Richmond us. That is fitting because, of course, King Canute was House—that is a decision. There is no point constantly the first person to build a palace on this piece of land at revising it. That is what is going to happen. I say to 667 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 668 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Chris Bryant] Members of the House of Commons than of the House of Lords on the Sponsor Body because we have the those who want constantly to revise these issues that, by primary responsibility for finance and have done since doing so, all we would be doing is delaying, delaying the 17th or maybe 16th century—and, after all, we are and delaying, and every year of delayis another £100 million the representatives of our constituents. added to the bill. Secondly, it would be better if Sponsor Body members We have also decided in principle to set up arm’s were elected rather than appointed. Our experience thus length bodies, just as the Olympics were delivered, with far of electing Select Committee Chairs has been entirely the Sponsor Body and the Delivery Authority, which is positive: they have a mandate of their own and manage precisely what this Bill introduces. I fully support that to bind views across the whole House. In general, process. There are, however, some problems that will transparency is a good thing. I note that the Leader of need to be addressed in Committee and during the Bill’s the House, when giving evidence to the Liaison Committee remaining stages. The first is the issue of planning. The about something completely different last week, said biggest risk to this whole process is the planning process. that she is always in favour of elections whenever possible. If we end up in protracted planning rows with Westminster I very much hope that we will be able to make that City Council or if there is a judicial review, which could change during the passage of the Bill. take many years, about either the northern estate The Committee considered questions to the House, programme or the restoration and renewal programme, which could be made easier. Members will have genuine that could put paid to the whole project. Everyone questions—why wouldn’t they, given that this will be might at that point throw up their hands and say, “Oh one of the biggest infrastructure projects in the country? gosh—this is too impossible. We will have to go back to There will have to be somebody who answers for the ‘patch and mend’.” Sponsor Body. That cannot be an external person; it I really want us to make sure that we have made the needs to be a Member of Parliament. My suggestion is right decision on the planning question. The Committee that the vice-chair of the Sponsor Body should be a considered the matter, but I think it was given wrong Member of the House of Commons and respond to advice—bad advice, if I am honest. Notwithstanding questions in the House. We should set aside a time every the earlier comments of the Leader of the House about six weeks or so for 10 or 15 minutes of questions. the difference between this and the London Olympics As Members will know, the next step is the northern Bill—five local, planning authorities in east London estate programme. As chair of the finance committee, I were involved in that Bill, but only one is involved in would prefer that programme to move on a couple more this one—the repeated advice seemed to be that if we steps before it is handed to the Delivery Authority and included a planning clause in this Bill, it would become Sponsor Body. We are close to presenting a planning a hybrid Bill. application to Westminster City Council and we need to I do not think there is any reason why this should get a little further down the road before we hand it over; become a hybrid Bill solely because of that. If we otherwise, there is a danger that the Delivery Authority wanted to state that this was not to be such a Bill, that and Sponsor Body will get obsessed with the northern would be entirely within our power. It would be perfectly estate programme rather than with developing a full possible for us to say that we would give planning to the budget and costed plans for restoration and renewal. Delivery Authority, which could do exactly what was We should be ambitious in this project. The hon. done during the Olympics: chair a planning committee, Member for Perth and North Perthshire expressed valid present planning proposals to itself and consider them concerns, and although I disagree with some of them, openly. It managed to carry everybody with it, and the there is no point in our coming back to a building that process was not confrontational; it simply meant that looks exactly the same as now in every single regard. It things could be done in a time-efficient way. has to have much better access for the public. My Members may not be aware of this, but one of the constituents have a long way to come if they want to see issues that has plagued us now for more than a decade— Parliament. At the moment, they find it difficult to do a 16 years,I think—is what lighting we can put in Westminster proper tour of Parliament unless they can get here by Hall. We have put forward endless proposals; I have 10 o’clock on a Monday morning. That is really difficult seen at least a dozen sets of pictures of what the lighting to achieve, especially for a primary school. could be, yet we have still not managed to replace the I would like us to have a system whereby the Gallery hideous things up there now. I fear that we are going to is much more convenient for members of the public to go through exactly the same process—round and round use. Perhaps they might even be able to talk in the in circles, not voting in Division Lobbies but trying to Gallery, so that what is going on in the Chamber can be persuade another authority that we are doing the right explained to youngsters, rather than their having to go thing. out of the Gallery to have it explained. I see no reason I also want to raise accountability to Parliament. At why members of the public should not be able to tweet the moment, there are more peers than MPs among the when they are in the Public Gallery, as visitors can when membership of the Sponsor Body. As the Leader of the they go round the Bundestag or most other Parliaments. House said, there are seven members, and the Whips I would like us to have much easier physical access for Offices decided that the individual parties should disabled people, not only to the Gallery, which is obvious, nominate—not elect—people for it. Those on the Sponsor but because the rest of the building needs to feel far Body will be the major conduit for accountability to the more like it belongs to the whole of the public in this House of Commons. They will make sure that the country. project does not run completely out of kilter with what My final point is that we will not be able to deliver Members of this House or the House of Lords think this project unless we train thousands more British acceptable. I think it would be better if there were more people to be able to do the work. It is not just about the 669 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 670 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill crafts, such as being able to cut stone and make new This of course means—this had not been thought gargoyles. No doubt there will be a new gargoyle of the through—that a fire starting in that passageway could Leader of the House, or the next Leader of the House, whip up any or all of those 86 chimneys and create a or, if the Leader of the House becomes Prime Minister, real disaster. If that happens, and if no life is lost, I perhaps several gargoyles—[Interruption.] Or one of wonder whether the hon. Member for Perth and North the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green Perthshire would feel all right about the fact that this (Mike Freer), indeed; that would be an even nicer iconic building had gone because we had not done the gargoyle. works. It is not just the craft skills that will be needed; we At present, the chimneys carry a mass of electrical will need skills at the high-tech end of energy conservation, services of varying age, many of which are defective. We information technology, cabling and central heating in have gas pipes, air-conditioning conduits, steam pipes, a system such as this, as well as conservation. I really telephone systems, communication fibres, and, as has hope that we will set up academies in every part of this already been mentioned, a ghastly old—1888—overloaded country—we should be doing so now—so that young sewerage system. This infrastructure serves the whole people from every single constituency in the land will building from end to end, moving up through the think about working in this building as a matter of chimneys, and there is a duplication right across the pride. I hope that at least 100 or 150 youngsters from roof as well. In the days when people did not know the Rhondda end up working here, so that it is genuinely about asbestos, that material was literally and liberally a palace for the people again. splashed everywhere by brushes from buckets. As I have mentioned, the sewerage system consists of two large 3.37 pm steel tanks that collect from a very large pipe that runs the whole length of the building. The system was put in, Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I thank the as I have said, in 1888 and suffers from repeated bursts. Leader of the House for her introduction—it was a A full decant was agreed by the House in the January clear and useful indication of why we are here to debate 2018 resolution. Then there are the current security this matter—and I particularly thank my right hon. requirements. Those of us who arrived here 10 years Friend the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman), ago did not need those security requirements then, but who has obviously gone through the Bill carefully. we do now. The whole security atmosphere has changed, I listened to the hon. Member for Perth and North so anything that we do and anywhere that we decant to Perthshire (Pete Wishart) with interest, and I mostly needs to be within the current but enhanced security understood him; as he knows, there is a language difficulty, envelope. As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris but I did understand him—[Interruption.] If he addresses Bryant) has said, we need to decant to the northern me, he has to do so very slowly. I do not agree with him, estate. The work that should have been done there does partly because this building is an iconic symbol of not go back to 1904, but it does go back decades, which democracy. I say that as an ethnic minority immigrant is why we have the difficulty and the cost. The cost of from the Commonwealth, where some of the parliamentary refurbishing that building to modern standards will be buildings, particularly in Australia, are very much the enormous. same and run on the same lines, although the language The complexity of the task is quite staggering. It is in the Australian House in particular gets a little heavier for that reason that I am 100% behind setting up the than it does here, or than would be allowed here. I bring Sponsor Body and the Delivery Authority. Although a lot of guests to Parliament—I run functions and so the ultimate task is the restoration and renewal of the forth in the House—and to them, when they stand in parliamentary buildings, it makes sense that the major the Chamber, this place is the epitome of democracy. works enabling the decant to the northern estate and The people most affected by it are the Americans. Over Richmond House should be undertaken by that body. I the years I have brought hundreds of them to the note the point that the hon. Member for Rhondda Chamber, and they envy us for what we have. We have made. It is possible, if not probable, that, by the time to keep it. those two authorities are set up and under way, the I thought the need for works was well established—the planning would have been—I hope—secured for the Leader of the House set out various points as to why—but northern estate and perhaps even for Richmond House. then I read some articles in the Sunday papers and it I wonder—I say this slightly with tongue in cheek—whether was quite clear that it had not been understood. I have Richmond House will be delisted and a new building of brought members of the national press down and traipsed quality put in. The building must be of quality. We them through the underground. They understand, but cannot have a Perth tent stuck in the middle of that not everybody does, and they also understand why it is space. It will be interesting to see how long it takes going to cost so much money: it is an enormous task. Heritage England to list the new building. My only The basic structure of the building is sound. Yes, bits nervousness relates to what has been said by others: we fall off inside and outside, but that is superficial. Really, must move quickly for the safety of the building and for it is about the infrastructure underneath. I discovered the people in this building—but quickly will mean many that the House has been looking into doing something years. about the structure down there since 1904; it has taken us a while to get here. 3.43 pm We need to discuss the size of the task, which will Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): I come to this mean, for all those members of the press, a little repetition. debate, as others have already said, having sat on various Most Members are aware that the House has a basement, Committees, bodies and boards regarding the restoration which has a long passageway that runs the whole length and renewal project. I was on the first Joint Committee, of the building. The 86 vertical chimneys running from which assessed the independent options appraisal and that passageway were originally designed for ventilation. reported in September 2016. I have been a member of 671 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 672 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Neil Gray] There has always been a concern about the reaction of the public to billions of pounds being spent on the the Finance Committee, currently chaired by the hon. workplace of politicians, and I believe that our constituents’ Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), which has looked scepticism will be most keenly felt the further they are at this project and at the northern estate programme from London. As it stands right now, this project will be since I was elected in 2015. I am currently a member of another massive London-centric capital project. London the shadow Sponsor Board for the R and R project, and and the south-east already benefit from a third of UK I served on the Committee chaired by the right hon. capital spending, coupled with all the job creation and Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman), which economic benefits that come from it. I am a massive scrutinised this Bill. Although I have been sceptical of sports fan and a former athlete so I was a supporter of this project, I have approached the work of all the the London Olympics, but there is no doubt that we bodies I have served on constructively. I will come to my have lessons to learn from that process.The most important concerns later,but I will first address the areas of consensus lesson is the way in which good causes funding was that I think are important. sucked away from the nations and regions to pay for the There is no doubt that this Palace is in need of Olympics. In Scotland, that amounted to £75 million. significant work. It has been neglected for decades by Weheard just last week—seven years on—that £30 million the British political class who call it their home, and it is of that money is to return over several years. In that now this generation of politicians who need to take the sense, there is no doubt that it was the London Olympics difficult decisions about the building’s future. Members and not the UK’s Olympics. will not be surprised if I, like my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), Meg Hillier: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid do not hold much sentimentality for the building itself point. We are looking at getting jobs and business from as the home of Parliament because I can see how around the country into the project. I hope that the modern Parliament buildings allow politics to flourish Sponsor Body insists on a proper evaluation to check elsewhere. However, I do acknowledge that this is an that that aim is actually being delivered on, and that we important listed building and a world heritage site, so do not get charlatan contractors promising the earth action is required. and then not delivering for constituents across the country. If we are to insist on Parliament remaining in this Neil Gray: Yes, and that is a line from the report that building, we have to acknowledge that crowbarring a the hon. Lady and I both helped to author, alongside 21st-century Parliament into a 19th-century building the right hon. Member for Meriden. The devil will be will require compromises and premiums. It will cost in the detail as this project progresses. It will be important more for us to get a less functional building than if we not only that the Government accept that fact—and were to look at a new building. That said, we are where that that is clear through the Bill’s progress—but that we are—that is, discussing a Bill to progress the project. the Sponsor Body is attuned to it, so that we do not see I agree that, should the project go ahead, it can only the same mistakes again. If this project has any chance realistically be achieved if Parliament is fully decanted, of gaining political and public support, it must be a as the risk to personal safety, project delays and cost genuinely UK-wide project, and that means that we overruns all significantly increase with any form of should see discernible benefits across the UK. That was partial decant. I concur again with my hon. Friend the a topic that I and others on the scrutiny Committee Member for Perth and North Perthshire that we have a were keen to explore. I have a possible solution that I responsibility to the safety of staff. I also agree that the have already discussed and that I hope the Government delivery model of the Sponsor Board and the Delivery will take seriously. Authority is the right one. As has been said, the London Olympics derived much of their success from their Dr Wollaston: I apologise for being absent for part of organisation, and this project seeks to mirror that model. this debate because I have been chairing a Select Committee. However, other factors in the success of the London It is on that point that I would like to ask the hon. Olympics were the support of the Government and the Gentleman’s advice. Does he agree that the public would support of the public, and there is some work to do on be deeply shocked if we were seen to be building both fronts with regards to this project. obsolescence into such an extraordinarily expensive Ever since the first Joint Committee was ready to project by not having the capacity for electronic voting publish its report, the Government have been lukewarm posts in Select Committee Rooms on the northern in their support. It is hardly surprising that while another estate redevelopment, so that at least, if this place got controversial issue has been at play, the Government its act together with modern practices, we would not be would want to kick this one as far away from them as interrupting repeatedly, and at length, Select Committee possible, although I acknowledge that this Leader of hearings by the way that we vote in this place? the House has driven the matter of late. A line of discussion in the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee was Neil Gray: That is a very good point. It is clear from how to bind the Government in—to make them owners the hon. Lady’s intervention, among others, that the and cheerleaders for this project. One way to do so majority view—in this debate, certainly,and in others—has would be to have a Treasury Minister appointed to the been that we cannot return to a Parliament that is Sponsor Board. The Chancellor of the day will be identical to the one that we leave. There have to be signing the massive cheques for this project, so it would changes made; there has to be progress. I hope that that seem sensible to have them as part of the operational will be borne out in the passage of this Bill and the decision-making process, but this has not yet been discussions that follow. accepted by the Government. In spite of the recent My suggestion for how to make this more of a enthusiasm for getting on with the job shown by the UK-wide project was contained in the pre-legislative Leader of House, that is a point of concern for me. scrutiny report. It was not apparent that the Leader of 673 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 674 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill the House acknowledged it in her direct response, but I can be done. It is a mystery to me why the cloisters have thank her for acknowledging it earlier and saying that been lying empty for at least 18 months. I have long she will consider it. Alongside a commitment from the been campaigning for fire doors. I know that there is an Government to ensure that contractors and skills are English heritage point about this, but I am pleased to procured from across the UK, as the hon. Member for see those doors being put in place. The fundamental Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) mentioned, issue must be safety. there must be a greater discernible benefit for the nations I agree that Members of this House must take control and regions. I have already explained how London of the Sponsor Body. I do not want to see a committee sucks in the majority of the limited capital spending composed of the great and the good—so-called experts— that there is by Government. This project, when it starting a project that will end up being a feeding frenzy begins, will clearly put incredible pressure on capital for architects, surveyors and builders and will cost spending elsewhere in the UK, and so will compound many billions of pounds. Although the hon. Member London’s dominance in those terms. for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) swept aside My answer would be for a nations and regions capital my intervention, I think that the points made by the fund to be established as part of the project. This would hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete see money going to all corners of these isles to allow Wishart) are apposite. There is no appetite among the relevant authorities to progress capital projects, boosting general public for Members of Parliament to spend billions economic growth and job creation locally and countering of pounds on their own building. When the public look any negative impact from such a massive project going at their schools and hospitals— on in London. One way of doing that would be deciding on a percentage of the overall cost of the project and Meg Hillier: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? then allocating it to each nation and region on a proportionate basis. Chris Bryant rose— I am approaching this issue constructively and offering ideas in good faith. I just hope that the Government will Sir Edward Leigh: I see that I have immediately respond on the same basis. prompted something. I give way to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. 3.52 pm Meg Hillier: We all know that painful balance, but as Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): First, I pay my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) tribute to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, said, it is not either/or. We need to do both. Does he who has proved to be outstanding in this job. Clearly, agree that we all have a responsibility to champion this she has a wonderful commitment to this place and its and to remember that we in this Chamber represent future. only 650 people who work in this place at any one time? I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member There are 1 million visitors a year and thousands of for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman); it was a pleasure staff, and we are doing this for them, as well as for the to serve under her chairmanship on the Committee that public. considered this Bill. I have to say that as the Committee wound its way through many hearings, I got more Sir Edward Leigh: I do not deny for a moment that worried, not less. As my right hon. Friend has mentioned, the work has to be done. It has to be done properly, but we were told that the full decant may now slip beyond we are in danger of creating a gold-standard operation 2025—a figure of 2028 was given. There is a real danger in building a permanent replica Chamber. That is not of us fiddling while Rome burns. We are told repeatedly, just a worry for people like me, who perhaps share my and I am sure it is true, that this building is an imminent political prejudices about public spending and spending fire risk. Mention has been made many times of the fate other people’s money in the way we would spend our of Notre Dame. There is no doubt at all that we would own. Many others share that worry. Simon Jenkins be judged very harshly by history if this iconic building, recently wrote an article in The Guardian in which he which is undoubtedly the symbol of the nation and excoriated the cost of building a permanent emergency recognised throughout the world as the symbol of our Chamber. parliamentary democracy, was put at risk through our I do not deny that the work has to be done. I accept inaction. the vote of the House of Commons. I campaigned The simple point that I have been making is that if we against it. It was quite a narrow vote. The debate has are in imminent danger of fire risk—if we are deploying, not reflected the fact that many Members of Parliament quite rightly, these fire watchers—then we have to take share my views on this, but we have decided to decant if action now. Personally, Mr Deputy Speaker, if you told necessary. I have accepted the will of the House. There me that matters were so dangerous that we had to will come a time when it may be necessary to decant. decant this very year, I would accept that. I would take The point I want to make is that if there is a serious and professional advice. The safety of this building and the imminent danger, we have to get on with the work now, people who work in it is absolutely paramount. and work may have to be done around us if necessary. It But we are in danger of setting up such a cumbersome is said that this is impossible. I do not know, but so structure that we delay too long to undertake this work. often in the private sector— It is understandable with a major project like Crossrail, which we plan ab initio and know will take many years, Mr Mark Francois (Rayleigh and Wickford) (Con): run to many billions of pounds and go through very On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I apologise complex planning procedures, but we have to get on profusely to my right hon. Friend the Member for with this now. As I said, I will take any professional Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), but I hope he will advice on how we do it, but it seems that a lot of work understand. 675 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 676 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Mr Mark Francois] estates projects, including the Elizabeth Tower,the cast-iron roofs and the courtyards—there are many very important Yesterday at Defence questions, Mr Speaker made it projects—and there simply is not enough room on site very plain that, because of all the speculation in the to be able to house so many staff, feed them, provide media about changes to the legal protection of veterans, them with a place to change and all the rest of it. This is he expected the Ministry of Defence to make an oral a difficult site on which to be able to do so many major statement in the House today. It elected not to do so projects while we still have a fully functioning House of and instead put a written statement on the Order Paper Commons and House of Lords. this morning. I have just treble-checked in the Library, and that statement has still not been made available at Sir Edward Leigh: That is a fair point about the almost 4 o’clock. In all the years I have been in this cloisters. I am just making my own point that the most House, I have never known a written statement not to important risk is that of fire, and I would have thought turn up by 4 pm. that we should drop everything else and try to deal with This is symptomatic of a three-way war between that. No. 10, the Northern Ireland Office and the MOD I said earlier that I have accepted the will of the about who is in charge of veterans policy. Could you try House, and it may well be necessary to have a decant, to overcome this chaos in Whitehall and use your best but I think it would be possible, certainly if we got rid of offices to find out when today—if, indeed, at all—we the September sittings—this point has not been mentioned will be given the written statement on this critical issue yet—to make quicker progress. Undoubtedly, some of that we have been promised all day? the problems we have been experiencing in recent years have revolved around the September sittings. I certainly Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): The right believe that the Leader of the House could take professional hon. Gentleman has raised a very important matter advice on this, and if we could break up for the summer and, absolutely, the veterans of this country need to recess on 20 July, or thereabouts, and work full pelt know what is going on. Promises have been made to this until early October,perhaps we could make better progress. House, and I do not think it is acceptable that no The issue now is no longer about decant or no written ministerial statement has been laid. However, it decant; the issue is whether, in the current economic has now been raised, and I am sure people will look into climate, we can justify knocking down a grade II listed this as a matter of urgency and find out where this building, which was only completed in 1987, to written ministerial statement is. I hope that it will soon accommodate a permanent replica Chamber of exactly be available for all Members—I am hoping it is only the same size as the Chamber we are in, with Division seconds or minutes away—because I too do not understand Lobbies of the same size. To facilitate that, we will have why, at this time of day, it has not been laid for Members to knock down a perfectly good listed building, which to take it on board. I am sure this will now be looked at can be renovated and restored. By the way, this building, as a matter of urgency. designed by Sir William Whitfield, has won numerous awards. The announcement that we were going to knock Mr Francois: Further to that point of order,Mr Deputy it down came just as he was approaching his death, and Speaker. I apologise to the House and to you, but nearing his 100th birthday, and it is a strange way to because I had come hot-foot from the Library, when I celebrate the best of British. first rose I had not noticed that the Leader of the House was in her place. I do not know whether she could rise When people, such as the hon. Member for Rhondda briefly to explain to the House the inexcusable delay of (Chris Bryant), say that we could circumvent this process this critical WMS that affects veterans across the United by giving ourselves planning powers, I just do not think Kingdom. Can she perhaps assist us? that washes. I do not think it washes politically, and I do not think it is the right thing to do. We have to go Andrea Leadsom: Further to that point of order, through the normal planning procedure. This is a listed Mr Deputy Speaker. I can say that I am very sympathetic building. There will be long delays. The House must to my right hon. Friend, and I am afraid I do not have know that, already, campaigning organisations like SAVE an answer, but I will pursue this straightaway. are gearing up, preparing for a full public inquiry. Indeed, I have no doubt that there will be a full public Mr Deputy Speaker: The message is out there. Let us inquiry; and there should be a full public inquiry. That look forward to an early written ministerial statement. could entail years of delay. Also—it is almost relevant to the point of order—there have already been disputes Sir Edward Leigh: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend between the House authorities and the Ministry of the Member for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois) Defence about the use of the car park. All these things for not waiting until I had sat down, and I will now try are adding delay on to delay. to get back on track. I should have thought that in the current economic climate, it would be possible to get on with the work as Chris Bryant: I think the right hon. Gentleman was quickly as possible, and when it became necessary to about to give way to me at the time—before we were so move, to move to a cheaper option. My right hon. rudely interrupted. Earlier, he raised the issue of the Friend the Member for Meriden mentioned Church cloisters being vacated, and the fact that there is nobody House, but there may be security concerns. When the in there, but no work has started. He is absolutely right, original Committee met, they were simply going to and this is deeply frustrating for an awful lot of Members. build a replica House of Commons in the courtyard of We have raised this in the Finance Committee and, Richmond House, which would not have entailed I think, in the Administration Committee. One of the demolition. Then they found that the measurements difficulties is that we are engaged in roughly 20 major were wrong; but the courtyard is still there. We do not 677 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 678 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill necessarily need a replica the same size as this Chamber. When my own local authority, West Lindsey, had to We do not necessarily need to vote during a short move from its old guildhall to the modern guildhall, it period in the way that we do now. As I mentioned, we used innovative ways of working with the private sector. could use voting terminals in the Lobbies. There are all When it created the chamber, it did not seek to create sorts of ways of doing this job more expeditiously and the old fashioned chamber, surrounded by wood and all more cheaply, and equally safely. That is what I would the rest of it, which could only be used once a month. It suggest. created a room that could be used for other purposes. I have had meetings with Sir Michael Hopkins, the The problem with creating the replica Chamber is architect of Portcullis House. He designed the building that once we leave it what will it be used for? It is said during the problems with the IRA. It is absolutely that it will be an education centre. We have a good bombproof. It is not ideal, but an emergency Chamber educationcentrewithamock-upof theHouseof Commons. could be placed in the atrium of Portcullis House—an I know it is only a temporary structure, but it could be infinitely cheaper option. I agree it is not ideal, but made permanent. Do we really need an entire replica actually we do not want to be too comfortable. Chamber for 20 or 30 primary school kids? The Leader The problem I fear is that we may become too of the House said we can use it for other purposes. comfortable. If we are in a replica Chamber that looks Every other business in the country which has to move a almost exactly like this one—although it seems to have part of its business to another part of its premises makes a more IKEA, Swedish feel to it, in a nod to modernism—I sure that it can be used for other purposes. We must do think we will become too comfortable. Many Members the same, otherwise we will be criticised by the public, fear that, as the architects, builders and surveyors get because it is their money. In creating a space, it has to hold of this project, and as more and more asbestos is capable of being used for other things. discovered, and more and more problems, we could be Patrick Grady: I was one of those who took part in out, not just for five years but for eight or 10. That is a the contingency exercise—I think I have even less chance real fear. of ending up in the House of Lords than the right hon. I personally believe the Leader of the House; I know Gentleman. The temporary Chamber could be used for that she is absolutely committed to our coming back. all kinds of things. Weregularly have vastly oversubscribed Other Members are worried that there will be more and Westminster Hall debates, usually on important matters more debate about whether, when we come back, we raised via petition by the public about how terrible the should change the whole nature of this place—our Government’s policies are, where it is standing room procedures and all the décor and so on. The Leader of only and Members are not able to speak. The Scottish the House has to convince us that every bit of the Barry Parliament Chamber is used much more flexibly, for structure—this iconic building—every bit of the Pugin example for the Festival of Politics and Youth Parliament decoration, which is admired worldwide, will be replaced debates. There will be plenty of use for a temporary exactly as it is, so that after five or eight or 10 years, we space that will hopefully be much more modern and come back to Committee Rooms, to a Chamber, to accessible than this one, which he seems to just want to Lobbies, that look identical. Of course the electrics, air restore to exactly the way it is now. conditioning and sewerage will be safer and better, but she has to convince Members of Parliament that the Sir Edward Leigh: When we create the temporary building will be exactly the same; because this is an space it has to be able to be a modern structure that can historic building. It sums up what our nation is all about. be used for many purposes—exhibition space, Chamber, Not many Members—I think only three of us, including Youth Parliament and education centre—but I am not the shadow Leader of the House—attended an exercise convinced that creating a permanent replica of the last week in which, within an hour, the House authorities House of Commons that is exactly this size, with the organised the House of Commons moving, in an emergency, Press Gallery and five rows of green Benches, is absolutely to the Chamber of the House of Lords. They can do necessary. Anyway, I have made my point. that within an hour. We went there. The tables were There is one point I would like to raise before I sit changed around. We sat on the red Benches—probably down. I was approached by the chairman of the Press the only chance I will ever get to sit on the red Benches. Gallery.When we move to Richmond House, the number It was a very enjoyable experience, I have to say. Lovely of offices for the Press Gallery will be dramatically décor.Very civilised atmosphere.Much less confrontational reduced from 150 or thereabouts to 60. We should be than this place. But it can be done. And I commissioned aware of that problem. I hope the Leader of the House an architect, who worked pro bono, who proved that it is also aware of it and takes action on it. would be possible for the House of Commons, in an We have a fundamentally sound structure in terms of emergency, to move there and to take services externally materials: it is old, but it is fundamentally sound. We if we were dealing with them here. My right hon. Friend have a problem in terms of the mechanics, the electrics the Member for Meriden has also mentioned Church and the sewerage. That is solvable. We can undertake an House. operation that is safe and timely, but our fundamental It is not widely known that there is a flat-pack Chamber concern, after safety, must be our taxpayers’ resources. I of the House of Commons, which could be set up in, will end on this point: let us not treat ourselves differently for instance, Methodist Central Hall in an hour if there from how we would treat local government. Let us do is an emergency. We really do have to be cognisant of this job well, but let us do it in a cost-effective way. public opinion. Of course we have to spend the money that is necessary; of course we have to make this place 4.12 pm safe, but we cannot treat ourselves differently from the Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) way that we would expect, for instance, local authorities (LD): I hope what I am about to say will be helpful to to treat themselves in a similar situation. the Leader of the House. As I said in an intervention 679 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 680 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Jamie Stone] bad as that. My daughter took one look at the Daily Record, published that Thursday morning, and said, earlier, my history is that I served as a member of the “Oh Dad, you’re finished.” But we pulled through and Holyrood Progress Group up until 2004 with two other today, as I said, the building is seen to be an icon of elected Members of the Scottish Parliament. I therefore high-quality modern architecture in Scotland. When I know a bit about what it was like to be in a temporary sayto people,“What about the desk?”, they say“What desk? structure, at the top of the Mound, before moving into What are you talking about?” the new building we created in 2004. The temporary building we were in at the top of the Mound in Edinburgh Pete Wishart: I recall, of course, the hon. Gentleman’s was the original IKEA Parliament, if ever I saw one. little difficulties with that desk. I am interested in his I want to make three points today. views on the expectations versus the reality, which was one of the issues with the Scottish Parliament. If my First, when I was a child in my home town of Tain in recollection is correct, the cost of the Scottish Parliament the Highlands—we all know about the pride of small was estimated to be £50 million and it came in at towns—it was said among the good Tainites that the something like 10 times that cost. Is it not best just to be stone that comes from the quarry behind the town was honest and up front with people as we go down such the second choice for the Palace of Westminster. Sadly, routes? We should not suggest that this can be done on I fear that that turned out to be something of a myth, the cheap and that it will only cost a few billion pounds but it was a lovely myth to believe in at the time. When when it is not going to be that at all. Be up front and we came to build the Scottish Parliament, we deliberately honest and I am sure, if the Government do that, that went out into the regions of Scotland to use materials. they can learn from the experience that we all had to go What is used outside and within the building, and in through bitterly in the Scottish Parliament. Queensberry House, is Caithness flagstone, a beautiful material. That was a considerable boost to the industry Jamie Stone: That is very sage advice. To get the and the economy of that part of Caithness. The building record as straight as I can within what we know, much is clad with granite from Kemnay in Aberdeenshire. My as I was very friendly with and admired hugely the late point and my plea to the Leader of the House is this: as Donald Dewar, at some point as the Bill that established and when works proceed here, could we make the most the Scottish Parliament passed through this place, I think strenuous effort not necessarily to use Caithness flagstone he said on the record that it would cost some £40 million, —although I very much hope that we would—but to source and therein lay the trouble, because we were never going materials from different parts of the UK? That would to build very much for £40 million. be one way of selling the project, if you like, to the people. Neil Gray: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, Secondly, when I rose to my feet in the temporary except that £40 million was for a rebuilt Parliament—a Chamber at the top of the Mound, one thing that was reconstructed building—which was to be opposite very apparent to me—my wife is disabled, and I take on St Andrew’s House. The £400 million that the new-build board the very good points made by the right hon. Parliament ended up costing could not be compared as Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman)—was a result, and that is where the hilarity in the press came that the access to the temporary building was frankly from. appalling. Because I was married to a disabled person, that fired up my passion for making the new building Jamie Stone: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. absolutely disabled-friendly.When times got tough, which Nevertheless, that is the way things work in the press. they most certainly did, that was my guiding light. I was That millstone was around our necks for the rest of damned if I was going to give way on that. We were time. I say to the Leader of the House, “Be of good going to complete this building and it was going to be heart”, because these things do go away. We now see the best thing for my wife and all the other disabled people coming into the Scottish Parliament, saying, people. As I said in my intervention, the flak that we got “What a splendid job you did. Well done.” was unbelievable. I say as a friend to the Leader of the My third point has already been hinted at by other House and to everyone who will be involved in this speakers. When we came to do the fine woodwork in the project in future that there will be flak and there will be dining room, the Committee rooms and so on, the sad trouble. There always is with a project of this nature, fact was that we did not have those carpentry skills in but be of good heart. Scotland or anywhere in the UK. We had to go to The flak got particularly bad when I had to announce eastern European countries to find them. Sadly, I suspect the winning design for the reception desk in Holyrood. that that is the same today as we embark on this project. I was chairman of the arts committee—[Interruption.] The point was made about establishing apprenticeships. I see the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire That is absolutely correct: we should take on young (Pete Wishart) nodding; he will recall this. I chaired a people—although they do not necessarily have to be small committee and we had the television cameras and young—who are willing to learn these new trades. If we the newspapers there. I said, “Ladies and gentleman, I have to import the skills from other countries, let us do am very proud to say that this is the winning design.” A so, but let us build a bank of people who have these certain newspaper—I almost called it a rag—called the skills. I am thinking of the woodwork and, as has been Daily Mail asked a tricky question of me, which was, mentioned, the masonry. I doubt whether we have many “How much did it cost?” I said, “Well, cost wasn’t really masons who can do the standard of work that we see in a consideration,” and the civil servants whispered to me, this building. That then is something for the future, and “£88,000”—for a desk. At that point, the world fell on it could be banked as we embark on other projects the my head. length and breadth of the UK to restore what is one of As I am sure the hon. Gentleman will recall, I was on our greatest heritages—the built heritage—right from the front page of every single newspaper in Scotland—not my constituency down to Cornwall and the south of a place someone wants to be when the publicity is as England. 681 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 682 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill It is quite correct, as others have said, that we should As he rightly says, it is not other people’s money; it is be open about the price. This issue bedevilled the project. the money our constituents work hard for and expect to The public will say, “It’s an awful lot of money”, but if be spent wisely. they think we are being honest, they will forgive us. If As others have said, we have put this off for far too they think we are being a bit clever with the facts, they long. The hon. Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul will not, believe you me. Every few months, the three of Beresford) talked about 1904; others talked about what us on the committee held a public question and answer happened 40 years ago. We have pushed this problem session with Members of the Scottish Parliament—and, away for far too long. It is heartening that it was only far more dangerously, with members of the Scottish seven years ago that the former Clerk of the House press—and it worked. People came along and threw us commissioned a survey to look at the matter. He feels some hellishly difficult questions, and we had to answer that that is a long time, but in the grand scheme of them as best we could—if we could not, we took them things he should be congratulated because it has moved away and tried to come back. That willingness to be things on much faster than at any time in the previous open was part of getting it through. I do not doubt that many decades. all involved in what is done in this place in the years to come will be equally open, but it is well worth remembering I had the privilege of looking at this on the Public that. Accounts Committee—I will touch on that and the I will sum up with some appeals. Let us see if we can finances a little later—and while serving on the Joint source local materials. I think about the flagstone of Committee under the chairmanship of the right hon. Caithness. When we came to get the oak—one of the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman). I thank main features of Holyrood—we went to the Earl of her again for her stewardship of that Committee. We saw Cromartie in the county of Ross and Cromarty and the shadow Sponsor Body at that time. bought some splendid oak trees from him. It was very Others have talked about the risks. It is worth good of him, though he got a good price. When I was in remembering that there have been 66 fires since 2008, as the deepest trouble of all, with this wretched reception you will be aware, Mr Deputy Speaker. At any one time, desk, when I thought my political career was over—at there are eight fire wardens patrolling this building. As the ensuing election my majority was slashed, though the Leader of the House said on the radio this morning, luckily it rose again in the election after that—the only at the end of last year there was one that could present Duke of Buccleuch stepped forward and, out of have been catastrophic, not for the whole building, but the goodness of his heart, gave us free, gratis, the oak to for a certain section of it. It was lucky that it happened build the reception desk. I have waited very nearly during the week, because the patrol pattern must be a 20 years to put on the record in this place how extremely bit different at weekends. If it had happened at the grateful I am to his grace for his generosity. weekend, it might not have been discovered so quickly. In conclusion, I say well done to the Leader of the My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris House. The nettle has been grasped. It was not an Bryant), in eloquent fashion, highlighted the “big stink”. easy one to grasp, but future generations will bless the The big stink of previous times led MPs to decide that it people involved for having had the courage to do what was time to build a sewerage system for London, but we is being done. are now suffering our own big stink in parts of the 4.22 pm building. It is not nice, it is not healthy, and it is really pretty terrible for the staff working in, particularly, the Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ basement rooms who have to put up with it. We must Co-op): It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for keep remembering that it is the staff who matter. Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) and to hear his wisdom. He is right that if we do not Mice are rife in the building. Unlike the Leader of the start by being open and honest about the challenges, we House, I have not yet seen a mouse in my office, but will be on a hiding to nothing. In that respect, the men repeatedly crawl into the cavity above my office, project has been bedevilled with problems, which I will which is close to the roof, and often, especially when I touch on, but I hope that today, when it seems there is am here during a recess, I see men crawling into holes broad consensus for the Second Reading, we will be in different parts of the building such as the upper able to move forward. corridors. They are doing excellent work, and I applaud I welcome the Bill and the personal determination of them for that, but I know that it is more expensive for the Leader of the House to get it through. Her predecessors, them to do it at times when we are not here than it for understandable reasons and the reality of politics, would be if we could decant. That is another reason were a bit nervous about taking this forward, and there why the Bill is so important. Of course, asbestos is also were challenges in getting the vote through in January a huge problem, and one whose full extent we do not 2018, but we are here today, with huge progress having know at this point. been made, and I congratulate her on getting us to this Future plans are critical, and even given the consensus point. here, different opinions have been expressed about what As the Leader of the House knows, this is just the should happen next. It was heartening to speak to beginning. I want to touch on the history—though that representatives of the Sponsor Body in the Committee, has been well covered by others; on the very real risks; and I have had an opportunity to meet its chair, Liz and on the future plans, including the costs. I have the Peace, on other occasions. She has made clear that its privilege of chairing the Public Accounts Committee. role must be to make it easier for us to make the The right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward decisions about how we work, but not to tell us how to Leigh) was one of my predecessors, and although we do do it. That would include ensuring that the building has not agree on every aspect of this issue, we absolutely a connectivity that will be future-proof. For example, agree that we need to watch taxpayers’money very closely. we could, if we chose, have video booths instead of the 683 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 684 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Meg Hillier] turns out not to be dingy and dark, but a great deal brighter and lighter. However, it is a long time since that phone booths that still exist across this place. The body was done in this place. could allow discussions about how we vote and how we Safety is, of course, critical. I sometimes joke, rather operate, but could not impose them on us. A building cruelly, that at least I am based near a stone staircase, shapes us, and, as we said in the Joint Committee, it is but the reality of that cruel joke is that many staff are in important that not just MPs and Members of the little cubby-holes a long way from a proper fire exit House of Lords but everyone—including the members route, and it is not acceptable that we have left it so long of the public who use this building—is consulted about for them to be supported. We need to allow for smarter what they want to see. technology to be built in so we future-proof this building, The pressing issue, of course, is that of the mechanical and we need to think, as we allow the Sponsor Body and electrical “guts” of the building. Dealing with that and Delivery Authority to get on with it, about our will involve about 80% of the work, the bit that we shall vision for what we would like to see in this place: not never see. We shall come back, and it will have been tinkering with it every step of the way, not changing the sorted out. It currently costs several million pounds to business case and the plans once they are set in stone, remove all the wiring from a riser. The riser must be but allowing that flexibility to be built in. We must also replicated outside the building while people inside, working make it clear at the beginning if there are areas where in asbestos conditions, in shifts, in spaces the size of a we do or do not want to see big change. small fireplace, remove all the old wiring and other There are huge opportunities to secure better access equipment and replace it. That takes more than a year, for visitors, and to make some money out of this sometimes two years, and, as I have said, it costs millions building when we are not sitting. I work in the old of pounds. Palace now thanks to the privilege of the office I hold; it provides me with a beautiful office. I get to see the There is, however, a huge opportunity for us to renew House differently from when I was working in other this UNESCO world heritage site. The right hon. Member parts of the building, and it is like the Mary Celeste in for Gainsborough made some important points. Like a recess or on a Friday when Members are not around. number of other Members, he talked rather disparagingly There is an opportunity if we think flexibly to make about an IKEA Chamber. I do not think that we are sure this place is used more effectively by the very public seeking an IKEA Chamber, but I hear what those we are here to serve. Members are saying. The “replica” Chamber has been The Bill Committee focused a great deal on the portrayed as though it would be an exact replica of this governance aspects. The Sponsor Body is critical because place, but the plans are actually quite flexible. We have we effectively hold it to account for the money that will an opportunity to shape its future and decide how be granted for this project. Its chief executive, who is permanent it is: whether it can turn into something else not yet appointed, will be the accounting officer. It is later, or whether it can become an overflow, either important to get that on the record now, because we permanently or as a flexible space. It is important for us might not all be here in future and I hope that future to become involved in a positive way, and nail that now, Members will hold that accounting officer personally to so that eventually the Sponsor Body will be able to take account for how the money is spent in this place—and over. not just here on the Floor of the House when we are It is vital that we improve access for those with, for discussing estimates but in other forums as well. instance, mobility issues. The right hon. Member for The Sponsor Body will set up the Delivery Authority. Meriden touched on the issue of the frankly embarrassing The people on the Sponsor Body, which has been set up loop system in this place. As a teenager, a member of in shadow form, are key figures at the moment. They my family was very embarrassed about admitting her were appointed for a three-year term and they are less deafness, and would have been mortified by the idea of than one year into their term. I echo the comments coming to a building like this and having to wear what is made by the right hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales effectively a big necklace with a clunky thing attached (Sir Patrick McLoughlin) about the need for continuity. to it. She would not have felt able to participate. We I am absolutely in favour of open recruitment, but given need to be sensitive to the way in which we label people, that these people went through a full and open recruitment as we currently have to do. process for the very same job—albeit that it is in shadow form rather than in statute and were appointed less than In fact, we were surprised to learn that there was a a year ago—there is scope to roll their term over to at loop system. It was only because we had the privilege of least the end of their three-year term and then have the serving on the Committee with Lord Stunell that we recruitment process continue as normal. I hope the learned about it. Otherwise, we would never have known. Leader of the House will consider that so we can get I think of all the people who have visited the House started now on this project. during the 14 years for which I have been here, and whom I have never been able to inform about the loop As the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil because I simply did not know about it. Gray) said, we discussed in Committee the Government having a Treasury Minister on the Sponsor Body to get We also have an opportunity to use the “dead space” Government buy-in. I know there can be issues either between buildings better. I think of the restoration of way, but we must consider that in Committee to see Hackney town hall, a beautiful 1930s building. Glassing what skin the Government of the day need to have in over courtyards has provided a usable space while preserving the game. Of course, the risk is that the Government of the beauty and integrity of the building. When people the day could decide to pull the plug; one Treasury talk about IKEA, we think of the light wood for which Minister would not be able to stop it, but would be able it is famous. When old buildings are restored—when to keep a beady eye on taxpayers’ money, alongside workmen go back to the wood and re-polish it—it often other Members of the House on the Committee. 685 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 686 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill We talked too about the election of Members to the of things to talk to the new Comptroller and Auditor board, which I naturally support, with one caveat. General about is ensuring that there is a good and thorough process. Of course the National Audit Office Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): My hon. Friend does an excellent job, but we need to ensure that this is is making some very thoughtful remarks. Has she given on its radar in the right timeframe and that we work up thought to how parliamentary questions can be laid a way of ensuring that everything works effectively. We and a Minister respond to scrutiny from the Chamber? need to get in early to ensure that costs are not suddenly Meg Hillier: The Joint Committee gave some thought ramped up at the end. to this, and the view was that members of the Sponsor I need to talk a bit about costs, and I will come to that Body should come to the House as Members representing in a moment. Other Select Committees will of course the House of Commons Commission and others have the chance to examine these issues and, as the representing the Church Commissioners do to answer Leader of the House has said, there will be a further from the Back Benches. We learned from the hon. chance for this House to have a say in 2021. It is Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross important that we build in scrutiny of the evaluation of, (Jamie Stone) that the more open we are the better, so I for example, the jobs and the money and of where the would say that that infrequent appearance might not be contracts are being let. In our speeches today, we have enough, and at certain points in the project we might all been putting pressure on the Sponsor Body seriously want to have far more open access both to Members of to consider having a mechanism for ensuring that the this House and the media, because it is not just Members wealth opportunities from this huge, amazing, international of this House who need to know about it; this is a project are shared fairly across the UK wherever possible, taxpayer-funded project that the people of the UK need and we must ensure that it is held to account for any to know about and they need to know that questions pledges that it makes. We will hold its feet to the fire on can be asked about it. this, and other Select Committees will have a role in that We need to make sure we scrutinise this fully and regard as well. properly. I talked about the election of members to the I want to touch on the northern estate. My hon. Sponsor Body. We on the Committee wanted that, but Friend the Member for Rhondda, who is no longer in the Government did not accept it. My one caveat about his place, suggested that it might be better not to glue having elections is that we must make sure we have full that project to the main Palace project. However, my balance across the House. I will probably want to press Committee believes that it is pretty vital that the Sponsor this in Committee, because we want to make sure that, Body manages both projects, because they are so for example, smaller parties such as the SNP are not interconnected. The fact that the cloisters have now disadvantaged if there is an open vote across the House been empty for 18 months even though that was an and Members vote on party lines, as may happen. urgent project is not a demonstration of a lack of Given the excellent support and input of the hon. Member will—there are many issues involved—but with all goodwill for Airdrie and Shotts and others, it would be invidious to the Clerks the House, they are not project managers to cut out a Member because their party label meant of major projects. The whole point about the Sponsor they would not secure the votes. That must be considered, Body is that it will have the expertise to hold those who but of course in principle I support elections for all the deliver these big projects to account and to ensure that reasons that others have highlighted. they get on with it. It is important that we also hand The scrutiny of this project is vital. This House will over the northern estate to a body of people who really scrutinise it, the Estimates Commission will put the have that expertise. proposals forward and, thanks to the mechanism worked I am pleased that the Ministry of Defence car park up with the Procedure Committee through the Backbench issue now seems to be resolved, as it was getting ludicrous. Business Committee, we can get those estimates and The Committee was horrified to discover that a delay in discuss them and the detail here. that area could have meant a three-year delay and We have made sure that under the Bill the National hundreds of millions of pounds in extra costs. We will Audit Office will have the powers to audit the Sponsor also get future office space and more flexibility over the Body, the Delivery Authority and the project. The Public buildings as a result of any new buildings on the northern Accounts Committee will, as of right, be able to hold estate. evidence sessions on the National Audit Office reports I remember when I visited New South Wales—I was and examine the numbers in detail. I will no longer be there on holiday; this was not done at the taxpayer’s the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee when all expense—I went to the head of the Sydney Olympics this happens, although I hope to have some input in the and was given the opportunity to visit the New South early stages. I am laying down a marker for my successors, Wales culture minister. They had an amazing project to however, because the length of the project means that at work with local businesses to help them to get ready to least another couple of Select Committee Chairs will be bid for projects on the Sydney Olympics. This helped looking at this. businesses to learn how to procure and to work out a whole list of everything that would be needed on the Jamie Stone: That is incredibly important advice. Olympics. I would urge the Sponsor Body to adopt a One thing that assisted us with the Holyrood project similar approach, so that hon. Members who have already was getting public endorsement every so often that the expressed an interest in bringing business, opportunities books were fine. I stand full square behind what the hon. and work to their constituencies can show their local Lady has said. businesses what will be needed. For example, we will need to know how many wood carvers and stone carvers Meg Hillier: The Comptroller and Auditor General will be needed, so that the people out there who know at the National Audit Office is coming to the end of his how to do those things can gear up and be ready when term at the end of this month, and one item on my list bidding for that work starts. 687 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 688 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Meg Hillier] My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made some important points about planning, I want to finish by talking about the important issue which I certainly have worries about. We must keep a of costs. We need to nail them down, but we must not firm eye on planning to ensure that it does not hold up rush to pluck a figure from the air. The costs that we the project, because if the northern estate project is have been talking about so far—around the £4 billion delayed, everything else will suffer and the timescales mark—were indicative figures based on 2014 prices. will slip, as they have already. They are not the true cost of establishing the work The right hon. Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline necessary to improve this building. That cannot be Spelman), with whom I had the pleasure of serving on known until the business case has been worked up and the Joint Committee on the Draft Parliamentary Buildings we actually discover what is behind things. There will be Bill, raised some important points, referring to the a number of known unknowns, because every time we growing risk of delay. Like several other Members, she remove a bit of wood panelling there may be asbestos mentioned disability issues and the importance of doing behind it. We just do not know, because the building’s whatever we can to make this place as disability-friendly plans are not accurate. There will need to be figures in as possible. the business case, but a proper contingency must also be built in that will have to be explained to the Sponsor Now, where do I start with the hon. Member for Body in case the Delivery Authority needs to draw on it, Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart)? I will be and the relevant bodies need to be held firmly to account. honest with him that he was fairly far down my list of To put inaccurate figures out now would be unhelpful, people to vote for to be Speaker, but the idea of making and we must ensure—the Leader of the House will be him live in this place is suddenly very appealing. on this—that the figures are in the realms of reality. The right hon. Member for Derbyshire Dales (Sir Patrick No matter how expensive the project is, we must be McLoughlin) spoke in great detail about some of the honest with the taxpaying public about what is being considerable problems we have to face. The hon. Member spent. However, there will be no blank cheque. The for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), with whom I have Public Accounts Committee, under my watch or that of the pleasure of serving on the Administration Committee, any successor, will keep a close eye on things, as will stated how important it is to consider how people view Members of this House, but we need to get on with the this place—not only in this country, but around the project now. We need to get the Sponsor Body in place, world—and that the northern estate project should be and it needs to appoint the Delivery Authority. I placed under the Sponsor Body’s responsibility as soon congratulate the Leader of the House on, I hope, getting as possible. The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts us to a consensus tonight. (Neil Gray), who like me has had the pleasure of serving on every R and R body so far, told us of his Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): I am going desire to have a modern Parliament within the current to bring in the Opposition spokesman for his first structures. appearance at the Dispatch Box since his election in 2001. The right hon. Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward I see that he has quite an audience. I call Mark Tami. Leigh) raised his concerns about slippage and what he 4.40 pm saw as the complex nature of the project’s governance. I agree with what he and other Members said about the Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Thank you, cloisters. Speaking as the Opposition accommodation Mr Deputy Speaker. As you say, it is my first appearance Whip, moving people out and causing all those problems at the Dispatch Box in 18 years—12 years as a Whip. I only for us to walk past it every day to see that, in fact, nearly got here on a Friday when the hon. Member for nothing is happening is a lesson that we should learn for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope) had a Bill. I was the future. ready and primed, but he did not actually move the Bill, so there we are. Things come to those who wait. I also The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and thank Matt Chorley at The Times’ “Red Box” newsletter Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) told us of his experience in for making my appearance his trivia question of the day. the Scottish Parliament, which is useful, although I do not think we will be taking his advice on buying desks. I should state that I am a member of the shadow My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Sponsor Body, and it is a pleasure to serve on it with Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) spoke of the need for honesty several other Members. I thank all right hon. and hon. in costs and for getting on with addressing the problems Members who have taken part in today’s proceedings. we face. The tone of the debate has been positive, which reflects the growing understanding that this project cannot wait. A number of years ago, many of us believed that we Wereally must get on with it and establish the appropriate could somehow carry on doing the work around us, but governance arrangements. the evidence clearly points otherwise. Importantly, as a Some Members have suggested that this not the right number of Members said, it is not just about us in the time to be doing this, which I suppose is understandable, Chamber or those in the other place; it is about the but to some extent that is why we are here now. Quite thousands of people who work here—many of them frankly, it has never been the right time to do it. I can work longer hours than we do at the moment—and the understand that Governments of whatever colour could more than a million people who visit this place every say, “Well, we’d rather leave it to somebody else,” but year. that is what we have been doing since the second world From a health and safety point of view, this building war, when the roof and various other work was bodged, is simply not fit for purpose. We need to restore and and we are paying the price for that today. If we had renew it to be fit for the 21st century. I would suggest to addressed some of those concerns many years ago, we any Member who has not done so that they visit the may not be facing the problems that we have today. basement to view the extent of the challenge facing us. 689 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 690 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill It is not just below ground; it is above ground, too. This project may be based in London, but it must not A number of Members have spoken about how masonry be London-centric. Legacy must include better access is falling on a fairly regular basis, and we need only look for the public, improved educational facilities and the at the netting around the building to understand the creation of new outreach spaces. As numerous Members threat. have said, we must also make sure that the building is The biggest threat, and a number of Members have made as disabled-friendly as possible. That includes mentioned this, is fire. Although a lot of work has been removing small stairways where we do not need them done, we need only look at the terrible events at Notre and also relates to the noise within the building. There Dame to realise how quickly a fire can take hold and are also issues that I had not thought about, to be threaten not only the entire structure of the building frank. For partially sighted Members, clear glass doors but, importantly, the people who work in it. with nothing on them are a major problem—we may think they look nice, but they can be a major obstacle. A key component of the proposed decant is the People across the House should be involved in looking completion of the northern estate programme, which at what we are going to do. has perhaps gone somewhat under the radar, with a lot of the focus being on the Palace itself. The public My personal experience as a member of the shadow consultation is under way, and I am sure many hon. Sponsor Board is that external board members—including Members have taken the opportunity to view the model Liz Peace, the excellent chair, who has been mentioned— or diorama—I never know the correct term—of Richmond play a positive and important role. Continuity is so House and the northern estate. I encourage Members important. I agree with other Members that there does who have not seen it to do so. not seem to be an allowance to enable existing members to go into the statutory body; they would have to go It is a bold design that will provide a positive legacy, back through the process they went through a year ago. with a building that can be adapted for a variety of uses, The danger is that we could lose that vital experience at as well as office accommodation for Members of this a critical time for the project. At this point, I want to House. There will be a second Chamber that we can put on the record my thanks to Tom Healey, who has hold in reserve, and we could use it for conferences and served the shadow Sponsor Board as director and is a whole host of uses that the Leader of the House has now returning to the House. He is a hard-working chap mentioned. It certainly will not be a white elephant. I who has served us very well. I wish him all the best for think it will be a very useful part of this House. the future. I accept that the proposals for Richmond House are In his opening remarks, my hon. Friend the Member controversial and have generated interest. Some have for City of Chester (Christian Matheson) highlighted argued that we should go to a different location, but I five key areas to which I hope the Government will can assure the House, as the Leader of the House did, respond. The Opposition welcome the Bill today, and I that a considerable amount of work went into considering wish it speedy progress. We have put off this vital work numerous other locations. Again, if purely from a security for 70 or perhaps 100 years. Let us be bold, let us be point of view, Richmond House makes so much sense brave, and above all let us get on with it. because it can easily be brought within the secure zone, which is a requirement that is, unfortunately, now far Mr Deputy Speaker (Sir Lindsay Hoyle): Before I call more important than it would have been a number of the Minister, I want to make an announcement. There years ago—it is one of the key things that we have to was a point of order about the written statement from think about. It is about protecting not only us, as the Ministry of Defence. It is not online, but copies are Members, but all the people who work here, too. now available for Members to read. We need to press ahead as quickly as possible with the northern estate project, which is central to the whole 4.53 pm R and R programme. I am delighted to hear from my The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Kevin Foster): My thanks go to all right hon. and hon. that the dreaded MOD car park question will hopefully Members who have contributed to this debate. I be solved, or has been solved, which should lessen the congratulate the right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside delay we were facing. (Mark Tami) on an assured début at the Dispatch Box. I would like to press the Minister on a key aspect of As a still relatively new Minister, it is nice to congratulate the R and R programme, about which a number of someone who has served for less time than I have. Members have spoken: legacy. I do not just mean the The restoration and renewal of this historic Palace of buildings, although they are important. I mean legacy Westminster is our duty to future generations of not in terms of the skills and apprenticeships that the just parliamentarians but of all who serve and take part programme will deliver—a legacy that should stretch in democracy in this country. The Bill is a vital step far beyond London and the south-east. towards ensuring that we fulfil it. As many speakers The programme must be open to employees of businesses have mentioned, we cannot underestimate this task. We large and small across the UK. The procurement process have heard about the significant state of disrepair that needs to be fair and transparent, with companies across the Palace is currently in. Anyone who has taken even a the country bidding for work. I hope that roadshows brief tour of the basement will have seen the scale of will go around the country explaining the opportunities. the project that we need to undertake and the desperate We cannot have a situation in which contracts are given urgency of doing so. to the same companies as always, which those giving the The restoration and renewal programme is and will contracts are comfortable with. For all the talk about continue to be a parliamentary project. We will all have stretching out there, the rules and regulations can effectively the opportunity to engage in the work and put forward debar smaller companies from entering the process. our views on what improvements we would like to see 691 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 692 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Kevin Foster] Opposition. I thank him for his constructive approach. He was an excellent stand-in for the shadow Leader of for the Palace as a whole. All parliamentarians will have the House, the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie the opportunity to vote on the proposals for restoration Vaz), whose name appears on the Bill in a sign of the and renewal in due course. This debate was an opportunity consensus we have been able to achieve. I recognise to hear what many people think, and it is only right that some of his points about opportunities for skills and I start with the right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, education arising from the work. It is about making who just spoke. He was absolutely right to talk about sure that businesses know how to put themselves forward. the need for this project to have a legacy. That legacy There are plenty of models—for example, Heathrow cannot just be revamped 19th-century buildings or better airport is currently working on trying to spread its presented artworks; it has to be a legacy that stretches supply chain throughout the United Kingdom. I hope throughout the whole United Kingdom, in respect of the Delivery Authority will be able to learn from that, job opportunities, apprenticeships for young people, the although we need to get the thing set up, via the Bill, revival of skills and the reinvigoration of crafts that before it can. may not even exist at the moment. My right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Dame Caroline Spelman) was an excellent Chair of the Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): I have sat through prelegislative scrutiny Committee. I pay tribute to the most of the debate and listened to Members talk about work that she and her Committee did to enable us to the need to start upskilling now. Will the Minister look bring forward the Bill. She was right to highlight the into contacting, lobbying and working with further fact that disability access in this building is from another education institutions, including in my constituency— era. The facilities reflect different attitudes to those with Chris Bryant: And mine. disabilities—not just in the visible examples, such as staircases that are hard or impossible for anyone with Chris Elmore: And, indeed, in my hon. Friend’s mobility issues to climb, but in those hidden aspects constituency, and in the constituencies of all Members that make this building not the place for accessibility from across the House. That way, we can start to look at that it should be. Let us be blunt: we stand in the upskilling and at what FE provision is there now, and Chamber and argue that businesses and public services FE institutions can start to develop course plans and to should be accessible, but we need to make sure that the introduce lecturers and so on, so that we get those skills building in which we do that arguing sets the bar, rather ready for when the project happens. than just meeting a minimum standard. Kevin Foster: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that As the right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside said, passionate advert for the skills of residents in Ogmore. I it is interesting to hear the comments of the hon. have also heard from the Rhondda, from Bury St Edmunds, Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). from Aldridge-Brownhills, from Bournemouth, from To anyone who raises the potential for spending on this South Northamptonshire and everywhere else. The hon. project, I say that the alternative is not to spend nothing. Gentleman is right: one reason why I am keen to get on The alternative is to carry on with a make-do-and-mend with this and get the Delivery Authority set up is that, process, which is not making do and which is not going as we saw with the Olympics in 2012, there will be to mend the place. Public money will still end up being benefits throughout the country. In 2012, businesses in spent in great amounts on this building, achieving worse his constituency and in mine benefited, either through outcomes. I would certainly reflect on the contrast the supply or through direct contracts. The right hon. between some of those remarks and the role that the Member for Alyn and Deeside made the point well that hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) has this project might be happening in London, but it played as part of the commission. Again, this is a choice should not be a London-centric project. I will certainly about how we deal with the pressing issues of this be keen to see us extending skills. building. There is no question of them not being dealt with at all. Neil Gray: The Minister speaks of his commitment to this not being a London-centric project. I am sure he Pete Wishart rose— will have already heard our proposals for a nations and Kevin Foster: I will briefly give way as I referred to the regions capital fund, and I am sure that capital funding hon. Gentleman. would be welcome in Devon and the south-west. Does he agree in principle with the idea of such a fund? PeteWishart:WhenIwasmakingmyspeech,theMinister was, I think, at an Adjournment debate elsewhere so I Kevin Foster: Of course, as the Bill progresses, the am surprised that he is even able to make a comment on Government will be interested to hear all proposals that these matters. I am not suggesting that at all. I agree that come forward. Let us consider the work that is already we have to do something with this building, but let us be going on. For example, the cast-iron tiles on the Elizabeth imaginative about where we decant to and what we Tower are being produced in the Sheffield area, and the come back to. We do not always have to do the same tiles for the encaustic tile conservation project have been things again and again and again. manufactured at a factory in Shropshire. There will be plenty of opportunities for businesses throughout these Kevin Foster: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his four nations that make up this United Kingdom to be intervention. Of course I take an interest in the remarks part of a project that all nations will be able to look to that have been made. These works have been looked at over the coming decades. on many occasions by professional advisers who are Let me turn to the detail of the views expressed today. coming up with appropriate things. We can all talk I shall start with the hon. Member for City of Chester about being imaginative, but the reality is that there has (Christian Matheson), who opened the debate for the been a great deal of analysis that has gone into this project. 693 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 694 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill Come 2021, the House will again be able to scrutinise Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), who said that we can explore the detail of business cases, to take votes based on real that matter in the Bill Committee. The Government’s estimates and to scrutinise the estimates to ensure that view is that, while there will be some engagement with everyone has the information that they need to make a the Treasury, a Minister being on the board could decision. confuse the roles and may not necessarily be the best way of ensuring that this project progresses. Nick Smith: On this topic of possible cost overruns, a number of colleagues have talked about the possibility My right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough of the northern estate being delayed because of planning (Sir Edward Leigh), as always, gave a passionate speech problems, which could be very expensive indeed. Can showing his great knowledge and skill, and making very the Minister tell us more about that possibility and how clear the risks that we are running if we decide not to we are going to reduce that risk? grasp this nettle. He talked us through the options. I know he has been a passionate proponent of particular Kevin Foster: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his outcomes for this project, but it is right that whatever intervention. On planning, he will be aware that this option we look to take—whatever our thoughts on project will follow the usual planning rules. We do not particular aspects of the project—we move on with this intend to make Parliament a special case; we will still Bill and set up the Delivery Authority to allow it to happen. liaise with Westminster City Council. On the detail in It was interesting to hear the experience of the hon. relation to the northern estate, I am happy to write to Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross him and also place a copy of that letter in the Library. (Jamie Stone) with the Scottish Parliament building. I That would enable me to give him a detailed reply to his actually saw the desk to which he referred only last concerns. I am conscious though that, when we engage week when I visited my opposite number in the Scottish with the city council, we will do so as any other applicant Government. The hon. Gentleman is probably right to would. We must be very clear that we are not setting say that there will be some flak along the way in this ourselves in a special place because we are the UK project; that is almost inevitable. However, he is also Parliament. right to say that this needs to be a project across the Let me move on now to the comments of my right whole Union, not just one for the normal contractors, hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire Dales (Sir Patrick and that it should be something in which we can all take McLoughlin). He quite rightly pointed out that, if this pride. building were in private hands, we would insist on its repair via the law that we pass. That also applies in I found the comments of the hon. Member for Hackney terms of conserving its heritage. I also pay tribute to the South and Shoreditch particularly interesting, as she role that he plays on the shadow Sponsor Body, bringing outlined the role that the Public Accounts Committee his considerable experience of Parliament to bear in will look to play in overseeing this work. As she reflected, doing so. it was the work of the hon. Lady and her Committee that persuaded many Members to vote for the motion, It is always a pleasure to hear from the hon. Member given that the House supported her amendment by a for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). I know that, like me, he majority and then supported the substantive motion also managed to nip into the other debate to make a that has brought us to where we are today. I am sure contribution, showing his passion for his work. Again, that many Members of the House will hope that such mention was made of his work on the Joint Committee an approach will continue. of 2016. It was almost as if we managed to duplicate ourselves to ensure that we could achieve the feat of It is extremely important that we make progress with being in two places at once. We appreciate the comments the restoration and renewal project so that we can that were made, especially the ones around planning, secure this historic Palace for future generations. That is but again I have to say that there is a difference between why I am pleased that the House passed the motions in these works and the works of the Olympics in terms of 2018 voting for a full decant, and why I am pleased that not having four different projects and of not having this Bill is being debated today. As the Joint Committee four different planning authorities. Again I say, it would on the Palace of Westminster said in its report, the be a low step for Parliament to look to put itself above Sponsor Body will need to set clear timelines for completing other procedures and other organisations dealing with the vital works. It is very much my hope that we move similar buildings. back into this historic and iconic building as swiftly as My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul possible afterwards. Indeed, the Bill provides for this. Beresford) talked about the iconic nature of this building At the point that we vote on the design and funding for and the vast scale of the task—no one can underestimate the project, we will have a better understanding of the the vast scale of the task. On the nature of this building, timescales and will be proceeding—if it is the decision I sometimes make the point on a tour that this is of the House—based on that timetable. If the timetable probably one of the few places that literally has history or costs shift significantly, the House will have the attached to a broom cupboard because of what happened opportunity to vote again. on the night of the 1911 census. Again, it rams home Concerns have rightly been raised about the cost of the fact that every part of this building has a history. this project, and we are determined to ensure that the Let me move on to the comments of the hon. Member R and R programme represents best value for money for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) who gave us his for the taxpayer. That will be the guiding principle as we considered thoughts. I note that he said that he wanted take this Bill forward. Weare confident that the governance a Treasury Minister on the Sponsor Body. The point arrangements set out in the Bill can and will deliver the that I make is that we are clear that this is a parliamentary necessary restoration works while guaranteeing value project, not a Government project. I also noted the for money for the taxpayer, as there is not an unlimited comments of the hon. Member for Hackney South and amount of available funds. 695 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 696 and Renewal) Bill and Renewal) Bill [Kevin Foster] progresses through the House. I hear the strength of the representations that he has made, and they will certainly The Bill puts in place a number of core financial be taken on board as the Bill progresses. As I say, it is safeguards that have been signed off by the Chief Secretary ultimately a matter for the House to determine. to the Treasury. To mention just a few: Parliament will This Bill ensures that we establish the governance be given an opportunity to vote on the annual expenditure bodies that will be able to deliver on this project in a of the Sponsor Body; the Estimates Commission will timely and cost-effective manner. This will enable our have the power to reject draft estimates if the project is return to this Palace to conduct parliamentary business, going over budget; the Comptroller and Auditor General ensure continued and more inclusive public engagement will conduct annual financial audits in relation to both through increased accessibility,and fulfil our responsibility the Sponsor Body and the Delivery Authority, and of to secure for future generations this historic grade I course has the relationship with the Public Accounts listed building—a building that has seen moments of Committee that the Committee’s Chair touched on in history take place within it. Ultimately, the Bill ensures her speech; and finally, Parliament will vote on the cost that the proper mechanisms are in place to enable the of the substantive building works. The Government are restoration and renewal works on the Palace of Westminster clear that the work must represent good value for tax- to be conducted with the expertise and safeguards that payers’ money, and the programme needs to be delivered are necessary for a project of this magnitude both in on time and on budget. size and historical significance. The R and R programme is at its heart, and will It is a privilege to support the Second Reading of this continue to be, a parliamentary project. That is why the Bill. I look forward to working with colleagues in Bill ensures that parliamentarians have a clear voice as Committee to take it forward. I commend the Bill to the members of the Sponsor Body, and establishes a specific House. duty on the Sponsor Body to consult with parliamentarians on strategic objectives for the restoration and renewal Question put and agreed to. works. Parliament will also have a significant role in Bill accordingly read a Second Time. approving the proposals for the works, including the scope, delivery method and cost. Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) The importance of engaging the public has also been (Lab): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. mentioned, and I completely agree that the public need The Prime Minister is giving a speech outside Parliament. to have a clear voice in this historic project about the Can you give me guidance on why it is not being done in Parliament that represents them. This project will provide this Parliament? Are we now just going to have a social an unparalleled opportunity to get the public to engage media Parliament? with Parliament and democracy—both during the programme and through providing a lasting legacy. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): I How we engage the public in R and R is ultimately for thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I the Sponsor Body to define, working alongside the understand the point he makes. He will have heard, as Delivery Authority. However, the Sponsor Body will the House has heard many times, Mr Speaker insisting have the chance to engage innovatively with the wider that any important announcements that are made by public about restoration and renewal, and I would expect Ministers should be made first here in the Chamber and that to be across the entire United Kingdom, as I not elsewhere. But it is my understanding, having listened touched on earlier. to the Prime Minister’s press conference this afternoon, If I may sum up, this Bill ensures that we establish the that she has every intention of coming to this House governance bodies that will be able— tomorrow and making a statement when all Members will have the opportunity to ask the appropriate questions. Sir Patrick McLoughlin: Will my hon. Friend give way? I hope that sets the hon. Gentleman’s mind at rest. Kevin Foster: Briefly. PARLIAMENTARY BUILDINGS (RESTORATION Sir Patrick McLoughlin: I am grateful to my hon. AND RENEWAL) BILL (PROGRAMME) Friend, because I want to put to him the point that has been put to him by several members of the Sponsor Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Body. The Bill says that we will have to undertake a new Order No. 83A(7)), recruitment process for the new Sponsor Body as opposed That the following provisions shall apply to the Parliamentary to the shadow Sponsor Body. I realise that he may not Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill: be able to give me a definitive answer at the moment, Committal but may I ask him to understand the concern that has (1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. been expressed in all parts of the House about this Proceedings in Public Bill Committee particular clause, bearing in mind that the people who (2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as are taking on this role at the moment, and will continue not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Tuesday to do so, were recruited only after a proper process in 11 June 2019. 2018? Those of us who feel that this is important would (3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on like them to carry on with that job for some time. I the first day on which it meets. think that to go through the whole appointment process Proceedings on Consideration and up to and including Third Reading again would be a mistake. (4) Proceedings on Consideration and any proceedings in legislative grand committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) Kevin Foster: I hear the point made by my right hon. be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of Friend. The Government remain open-minded on this interruption on the day on which proceedings on Consideration and will clearly consider the comments made as the Bill are commenced. 697 Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration 21 MAY 2019 698 and Renewal) Bill (5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day. Compensation (6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House not apply to proceedings on Consideration and up to and including do now adjourn.—(Mr Jack.) Third Reading. Other proceedings 5.13 pm (7) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.— (Mr Jack.) Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP): William Question agreed to. Caldwell was a 19-year-old merchant seaman when he was sent from Glasgow to Newcastle to join the crew of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Wave Sovereign. He thought PARLIAMENTARY BUILDINGS (RESTORATION he would be refuelling warships for the Pakistani and AND RENEWAL) BILL (MONEY) Indian navies, and in August 1957 he boarded, carrying Queen’s recommendation signified. his worldly possessions in a hold-all. He knew nothing Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing of the Indian ocean, and far less of Christmas Island. Order No. 52(1)(a)), However, William was about to find himself at the That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Parliamentary epicentre of Britain’s nuclear testing programme. Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill, it is expedient to authorise Operation Grapple was four series of British tests of the payment out of money provided by Parliament of— atomic and hydrogen bombs carried out in 1957 and (a) any expenditure incurred by the Parliamentary Works 1958 at Malden Island and Kiritimati—Christmas Sponsor Body under or by virtue of the Act, and Island—in the Pacific ocean as part of the British (b) any increase attributable to the Act in the sums payable hydrogen bomb programme. Nine nuclear explosions under any other Act out of money so provided.—(Mr Jack.) took place, culminating in the United Kingdom becoming Question agreed to. the third recognised possessor of thermonuclear weapons and the restoration of the special relationship with the United States, with the 1958 US-UK mutual defence agreement. I first heard William’s story when his son Robert visited my office in Glasgow. He told us of his father’s memories of the Grapple Y test on 28 April 1958. William was down below when they were ordered on to deck. He hurried up wearing only sandals and shorts. The crew were told that they were going to witness something special that nobody else had seen and that it was important to cover their eyes with their hands until after the flash. At that point, the Wave Sovereign was about 12 miles from the detonation site. William vividly remembered being both astounded and horrified when he saw the bones of his hands lit up in utter clarity, as though he was looking at an X-ray. William remembered the cloud. The crew remained on deck to watch with dark fascination as the cloud formed and remained suspended in the sky above them. A particularly upsetting thing for William’s son Robert is how much the vision of this cloud haunted his father. Having and raising a family provided William with a distraction, but as his children grew up and he got older, this memory began to trouble him greatly, and he had many nightmares about the cloud. Those on board the Wave Sovereign were exposed to gamma and beta radiation from the initial blast and then nuclear fallout, which included alpha particles. Alpha particles are the most ionising, and therefore most dangerous, of nuclear radiations, but they cannot penetrate far and can easily be stopped by a single sheet of paper, or indeed protective clothing. However, if they are ingested in water, food or air, they can wreak havoc on the body’s DNA. After the cloud went up, a black rain fell, followed by dead fish floating to the surface of the water. The crew netted those fish and ate them, delighted by the convenience of their bounty and unaware of the risks. But Britain was aware of the risks before the tests began. Historical documents released from state archives show that in 1951, William Penney, the chief scientist at 699 Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: 21 MAY 2019 Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: 700 Compensation Compensation [Carol Monaghan] reviewed the file recently, I can confirm that the barrister did pass that over, but for some reason the very generous Aldermaston, demanded insurance for scientific staff in settlement offer was refused. case any developed radiogenic diseases. Admiral Arthur Torlesse said that he would only order his men into Carol Monaghan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman danger for his intervention, and I am happy to look into that “in the knowledge that the Admiralty accept liability for those and ask questions about it. killed or injured on duty”. Veterans’ numbers are dwindling, but there are thought On 20 May 1953, the Defence Research Policy Committee to be about 130,000 descendants, who report 10 times discussed how troops would be affected by the blasts. the normal level of birth defects, organ malformations It said: and leukaemia. William’s children all suffer from bone “The Army must discover the detailed effects of various types or spinal problems, and his granddaughter’s hips were of explosion on equipment, stores and men with and without back to front when she was born. However, the MOD various types of protection.” continues to deny liability. In 2007, research from New In 1955, Prime Minister Anthony Eden was warned Zealand proved that genetic damage in veterans was that if scientists were to build an H-bomb, it could damage three times worse than in survivors of the Chernobyl troops’ DNA. A letter headed “10 Downing Street” and disaster. Despite Britain agreeing to pay Australia dated 14 November says: £20 million to settle claims arising from nuclear “The Prime Minister saw the report from Sir Harold Himsworth contamination, the Government fight such compensation about the report of the Committee considering the genetic effects claims at home. of Nuclear Radiation. His comment was: ‘A pity, but we cannot In response to a parliamentary question from the help it’.” hon. Member for Hendon (Dr Offord) last year, the In a draft report ahead of Grapple Y, Air Commodore Minister set out the eligibility for claims. He said: Denis Wilson, the senior medical officer on the taskforce, “Any veteran who believes they have suffered ill health due to said that he expected servicemen to die. He wrote: Service is eligible to claim no-fault compensation under the War “It is emphasised that in the event of the expected yield being Pensions Scheme. War Pensions are payable in respect of illness obtained or increased there will almost certainly be in addition to or injury due to Service in Her Majesty’s Armed Forces before considerable material damage, casualties to individuals, and this 6 April 2005, with the benefit of reasonable doubt always given to should be taken into consideration.” the claimant. Decisions are medically certified and follow consideration William’shealth problems began shortly after.Following of Service and medical evidence and carry full rights of appeal to an unrelated accident on board the Wave Sovereign, he an independent tribunal. Where the evidence supports a causal link to Service, entitlement will be given.” was taken to a military hospital, and from there had to pay to be transported home on board an RAF bomber. After four years of stomach problems,in 1962 he underwent Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): an operation to remove an ulcer, but it was discovered My hon. Friend mentioned Australia and the compensation that his stomach was so badly damaged that half of it that was paid to veterans and indigenous Australians as would have to be removed. Coincidently—or, indeed, a result of tests there. Is she aware that the amount not—another test veteran, Ken McGinley, who went on offered—£20million—isconsideredpatheticallyinadequate? to establish the British Nuclear Test Veterans Association, required the same operation in 1962. This is a pattern Carol Monaghan: That is of course the point I was we do see repeated. making, and I do not for a moment suggest that that In response to the health concerns of some nuclear comes anywhere near what would be required properly test veterans in the 1980s, the Ministry of Defence to compensate people there. The point I am making is commissioned three studies of mortality and cancer that there is an admission of guilt within that. among nuclear test personnel. These were conducted by It is difficult enough to prove the causal link between the independent National Radiological Protection Board. service and illness for nuclear test veterans, but for a Three analyses were carried out. The latest report, merchant seaman on board a Royal Fleet Auxiliary published in 2003, concluded that overall levels of mortality Service vessel, supporting the military operation, there and cancer incidence in nuclear test veterans have continued is not even the ability to access a war pension. Lord to be like those in a matched service control group and Mackay of Ardbrecknish addressed that issue during lower than in the general population. his time as Minister for war pensions. He wrote to These findings form the basis of the war pension Mr McGinley of the British Nuclear Test Veterans scheme policy on nuclear test veteran claims. However, Association, stating that anyone who was present at the there are three glaring problems: this takes no account tests, even in a support capacity, would be considered, of non-cancerous health problems, and in fact William’s for the purpose of war pensions, a veteran. However, that stomach problem was not considered under that scheme; classification has never been recognised. it does not consider the health conditions of the offspring William was told by the Navy that he was not in of test veterans; and it does not include RFA personnel hostile waters and therefore could not be considered a who were present in a support capacity. Currently, there veteran. The civil service has said that because he was is no specific compensation fund for this group of not on board for more than two years— which, due to veterans, whose numbers are dwindling. his unrelated injury, could not happen—he could not be considered for a civil service pension. My predecessor, Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): The hon. John Robertson, was also involved in William’s case, Lady is making a very good speech. When I was the and through his intervention William did receive his Under-Secretary of State for Defence in 2009, a settlement veteran’s pin; but that is no compensation for the decades proposal was made to the test veterans’ lawyers. Having where the state has simply ignored his contribution. 701 Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: 21 MAY 2019 Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: 702 Compensation Compensation Canadian servicemen were ordered to lie in trenches the areas I have just mentioned and are involved in while the tests were carried out; they have secured humanitarian operations, disaster relief and help with compensation. American servicemen who witnessed counter-piracy. explosions over land were compensated in Reagan’sfamous This debate focuses on a very sensitive issue and I scheme, but it appears that Britain is the last nuclear know there are strong feelings on both sides of the power on earth to deny that its own nuclear weapons House. It is a highly complicated issue, so it is worth are capable of causing its service personnel any harm. breaking the subject matter down into three separate Following a long campaign by the British Nuclear stages. The first stage relates to the facts of the matter. Test Veterans Association, £25 million was allocated The UK’s atmospheric nuclear test programme from LIBOR funds to finance an aged veterans fund to experimented on weapons, not personnel. The weapons alleviate suffering and increase wellbeing. The aged were the focus of the operations in the south Pacific. veterans fund went live in April 2016 and the British Many thousands of service personnel deployed to the Nuclear Test Veterans Association, through its nuclear south Pacific, including Christmas Island, from 1956 to community charity fund, received approval to launch 1961, were in support of testing the UK’s first thermo- an initial portfolio of five projects benefiting the nuclear nuclear weapon system. The hon. Lady alluded to 17 RFA community. That has been welcomed by the community, ships being deployed in support of operations. None but it is a million miles from the compensation that was exposed to direct radiation beyond the background those veterans and their families deserve. Men were radiation that was expected. Only the Royal Navy’s deliberately used as guinea pigs in a macabre scientific HMS Diana came into direct contact with radiation, as experiment, and their health was sacrificed simply to she was expressly required to sail through the nuclear prove our worth to America. plume after the explosion had taken place. I would ask the Minister, first, if William was a civilian, how was it that he ended up in Christmas Carol Monaghan: That simply is not the case, as I Island without any say in his deployment? Secondly, explained in my speech. The Wave Sovereign was there. what plans do the Government have to admit their It was present. The crew were on board and the crew responsibility in this episode and compensate all those witnessed the blast. affected—military and support crew? Finally, when can we expect the Government to honour Lord Mackay’s Mr Ellwood: I am not denying that they were in the classification of RFA personnel as veterans? vicinity. It is the distance and proximity to the explosion Sadly, William Caldwell died last year, but his son that we are talking about. It is worth putting it in Robert continues to fight for what his family are owed—an context. Other nations went through these experiments. admission of guilt, an apology from the Government It is difficult to compare apples with pears regarding the and financial recompense for the years of suffering this proximity of any of the individuals who witnessed the family have experienced, and continue to experience. tests. I simply make it clear that the locality of the ships, But Robert takes some small comfort in knowing that in comparison with HMS Diana, was very different his father is now at peace from the nightmares. indeed. That is all I can say about that. Other Royal Navy and RFA vessels were located in 5.28 pm safe zones many, many miles away from the bomb’s ground zero—or surface zero, as it is called at sea—from The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence which it was detonated. The role of the RFA vessels was (Mr Tobias Ellwood): I begin by thanking the hon. to restock and refuel Royal Navy support ships that Member for Glasgow North West (Carol Monaghan) were closer to it. They were withdrawn from those for securing the debate. She raises a very sensitive locations before detonation. Otherwise, radiation risk matter, which has been brought to this House on many to Royal Navy and RFAcrews, and all other participants, occasions. was low, with prevention measures that reflected best Before I go into the detail of the subject matter, it is practice in the contemporary understanding of the day. important for us to understand that this is not a question The second point relates to the subsequent reports of the thermonuclear testing and Britain’s decision to and investigations. As I mentioned, this issue has been use and develop a nuclear deterrent, although our parties looked at in the past. Protection, health and welfare of may have different opinions on that; this is to do with all those involved in the tests were in place, and that is the actual positioning—the geographical location—and confirmed by well documented safety measures and the manner in which the tests were conducted in the monitoring during the tests. To date, there is no expert south Pacific in the 1950s. evidence of excess illness or mortality among nuclear The hon. Lady spoke about Operation Grapple—the test veterans in general that could be linked to their decision to pursue a nuclear deterrent. That did involve participation in the tests. the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service, who, I make it very In response to health concerns raised in the 1980s, the clear, are civilians; they are not part of our armed forces Government commissioned an independent study from in that sense. It is important that we express and put on the National Radiological Protection Board. This looked record on behalf of the House our gratitude for what at mortality for all causes, as well as cancer incidence they do, not just then but today. Without them, it would and mortality. Three reports followed in 1988, 1993 and not be possible for our Navy—our naval ships—to 2003, which compared over 20,000 participants in nuclear maintain the food, fuel, stores and ammunition that tests with a similar-sized control group of non-deployed they require to keep our seas safe and protect our service personnel. They found no detectable effect on shores. We are very grateful to all those who serve in the participants’ life expectancy or risk of developing most Royal Navy and in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service. In cancers, but did find a small increase in the risk of present times, the RFA provides logistical support in leukaemia, excluding chronic lymphatic leukaemia, with 703 Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: 21 MAY 2019 Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: 704 Compensation Compensation [Mr Ellwood] Mr Ellwood: I would be delighted to meet the hon. Gentleman, perhaps one to one, to discuss that. The clinical onset in the first 25 years after presence at the issue of medals is always sensitive. As he is aware, many tests. A fourth report is now expected next spring. Should campaign groups are seeking to provide recognition those findings produce new evidence, with new ways of for valour and conduct in peace and war operations. measuring such things, that will be reflected in policy. Recognition of service is always very important. Thanks to our predecessors, we are able to enjoy the freedoms Carol Monaghan: One issue that I raised was the that we do, so I would be delighted to meet him to offspring of test veterans. It seems that they are not discuss that further. being included in the medical tests, but we know that I stress that RFA personnel are civilian and not the incidence of leukaemia and other cancers in their military and, therefore, they come under a different offspring is 10 times that of the general population. form of compensation. They are covered by the industrial Mr Ellwood: Because it is an independent study, I do injuries disability scheme and are certainly entitled to not have the details of the fourth report, but I will write claim civilian damages, should they wish to pursue that, to the hon. Lady to confirm whether the offspring are but that is separate from the strand of support and included. I hope that they are. It would make sense, compensation that those in the armed forces would because often these things can get passed down, as we pursue. saw with the tests after Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): Mr Kevan Jones: On the family risk, as part of the This debate is about establishing compensation and compensation that was offered and never taken forward, giving those veterans or the people in the vicinity justice. a study was done in, I think, 2009 of family members. Does the Minister think that justice has happened at The Minister may well want to look at that study. If he this point? wants access to that file, it is under my papers and I am quite happy to give him the authorisation. Mr Ellwood: I am not a lawyer and it is not for me to make those judgments; it is for me to clarify— Mr Ellwood: The fact that the right hon. Gentleman [Interruption.] I will not be pressed to give a judgment—that had to deal with this when he was a Defence Minister would be wrong. I am sorry the hon. Gentleman feels reflects how long this issue has been alive. I would be the need to press me on it. There needs to be a process grateful for any further information that helped us. that anybody who feels they require justice can pursue, Ultimately, we want to do the best we can for those who and it is my job to make that clear. I hope he will agree. are serving and who have served. This is an important issue and one that concerns me. On the pension and compensation issues that are We must provide clarity in the upcoming fourth report. involved, the Government’s policy on claims arising I am grateful to the hon. Lady for addressing these from nuclear test programmes is based on detailed and matters this evening. The Government continue to recognise impartial analysis of world literature, including the the work of all those who participated in the British National Radiological Protection Board reports. A revised nucleartestingprogramme,bothcivilianandRFApersonnel MOD policy statement for armed forces personnel was and those in the armed forces. They contributed a great published in December 2017, and it takes into account deal to keeping our nation secure during the cold war scientific studies that have been published since 2003. It and since by ensuring the UK was equipped with the is important to make it clear that the Government do appropriate nuclear capability. I assure the entire House not accept in general that those present at sites were that the Government will continue to monitor closely exposed to harmful levels of ionising radiation. RFA the health risks to participants, and we look forward to personnel are covered by the mercantile marine scheme, the fourth report, which is expected to be published based on the personal injury civilian scheme, which was next year. extant during world war two. Like the scheme, the MMS applies only in wartime to war injuries and is Carol Monaghan: I raised the recognition by Lord enacted specifically for such events. Most recently, that MacKay that RFA personnel would be considered as was relevant in the 1990-91 Gulf war.The UK atmospheric veterans for the purpose of war pensions. The Minister tests were a peacetime operation, as the hon. Member has not addressed that. I wonder whether he will before for Glasgow North West mentioned. he finishes. Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD): It is absolutely correct that this was a peacetime Mr Ellwood: I am happy to write to the hon. Lady in operation, and I thank the Minister for the thoughtful more detail. It was my plan to do that anyway after this way he is taking us through this issue. I was approached debate. She has raised several points. I do not have all by an elderly constituent who was there—he was serving the details now, but I would be happy to share them in the armed forces at the time—and he had to turn his with her in closer context, and I will certainly look at back and all the rest of it. He said, “I’ve not been ill”, this issue. I would again make the distinction between but he did say, “All my teeth fell out not terribly long the different models of support that apply to people in after the test.” The point he put to me was that because civilian and military roles, which I alluded to earlier, but it was peacetime, there was no idea of any campaign I would happy to write to her with more details. medal or decoration for those who were there, but he Question put and agreed to. asked whether any other consideration could be given by the MOD, such as perhaps a letter signed by the Minister or somebody, saying, “You were there and we 5.41 pm recognise your contribution.” House adjourned. 253WH 21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 254WH

Fundamentally, the bigger picture is inclusive economic Westminster Hall growth and flexibility, security and choice in personal and family finance. Cuts to welfare, stagnant wages and Tuesday 21 May 2019 economic instability in the last decade have exacerbated the precarious position of millions of people in the UK. The Money Advice Service estimates that 22% of UK adults [SIR HENRY BELLINGHAM in the Chair] have less than £100 in savings, which makes them highly vulnerable to a financial shock such as job loss or an Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash unexpected bill. Some 8 million people rely on high-cost credit to pay essential household expenses, and may [Relevant documents: Nineteenth Report of the Treasury frequently turn to alternative forms of finance such as Committee, Household finances: income, saving and debt, high-cost lenders or illegal loan sharks to make ends HC 565; and the Government response, HC 1627; Oral meet. Recent Financial Conduct Authority data shows evidence taken before the Treasury Committee on 12 March, that the number of high-cost short-term credit firms on the Access to Cash Review, HC 2011; Twenty-ninth has decreased, but the volume of lending has increased. Report of the Treasury Committee, Consumers’ access to Ten years ago, six in 10 transactions were made in financial services, HC 1642; and Correspondence with cash, but by March 2019, that number had halved to the Chancellor of the Exchequer relating to Access to three in 10. The combined number of banks and building Cash (dated 13 March and 2 May).] societies is falling steadily, and in 2018, the number of free-to-use ATMs fell for the first time in 20 years. 9.30 am Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. The I beg to move, issue of free-to-use ATMs is particularly acute in rural That this House has considered financial exclusion and the areas, and especially among elderly and more vulnerable future of access to cash. communities, which should be at the forefront of the It is an honour to serve under your chairship, Sir Henry. debate. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting our request to hold the debate. I also thank the Access Seema Malhotra: The hon. Gentleman puts on the to Cash Review panel, Joe Fortune from the Co-op record an important and well-made point, which I will party, the RSA, Responsible Finance, Hounslow Council, address later. UK Finance, the Payment Systems Regulator,the Treasury Committee Clerks, Visa, Mastercard, the Financial Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab/Co-op): Inclusion Commission, Citizens Advice, the Money I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Advice Service, Age UK and many others for their help Does she agree that when banks, such as the Yorkshire in preparing for the debate. I mention them as an Bank in Royton, close with an agreement to relocate a indication of how widespread the concern is and how cash machine in a convenience store, the agreement much of a contribution many stakeholders are making. must be that it will remain free to use? In Royton, just a I also declare an interest as a recent nominee to become year into that agreement, a charge has been introduced. a new commissioner on the Financial Inclusion Seema Malhotra: My hon. Friend makes an important Commission. point about the situation in his constituency, and that is There is considerable interest in the debate, so I will why regulation is increasingly important. In future, the try to keep my remarks to about 15 or 16 minutes. I will issue will be maintaining not just access to cash but free set out some of the context; where progress is being access to cash. made, which we should recognise; opportunities that we There has been a renewed focus on the issue of the should seize, including a particular mention for credit last bank standing in a community. As Sian Williams of unions; and the importance of joining up to move Toynbee Hall pointed out, however, when we get to that forward together. I will also cover the potential for and point, it is often too late. There is an urgent need to join importance of future legislation, which the Government up, particularly in areas that are more likely to be left have so far resisted and I am sure the Minister will behind. Financial institutions have not tended to talk to mention. one another, so towns and communities have been left As the map of stakeholders shows, access to cash is with piecemeal and inaccessible financial services. an important and complex issue that can no longer be The change has not been orderly.In the RSA’s excellent primarily led by industry. We need a joined-up plan led report published earlier this year, “Cashing Out: The by the Government that looks at the cost and effectiveness hidden costs and consequences of moving to a cashless of our wholesale cash infrastructure, programmes for society”, the situation is described as a “disorderly dash digital inclusion and incentives to diversify services from cash” with based on complex customer needs. We need to ensure “a misalignment of incentives between individual banking institutions that those services can reach people, and that we both seeking to shed their costly physical infrastructure…and the maintain free access to cash for those who need or needs of…thousands of communities that remain reliant” choose cash as their method of payment and ensure on what, for them, are essential financial services. The that cash remains accepted. report finds that substantial numbers of people rely There is clear cross-party interest, which the Chair wholly on cash and that access to bank branches is of the Treasury Committee referred to in her recent about not just the older generation but the younger correspondence with the Chancellor. That gives me hope generation, small and medium-sized enterprises and and confidence that we are setting the right foundations increasing numbers of self-employed people, who all for moving forward and addressing the challenges ahead. have an important stake in the debate. 255WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 256WH

[Seema Malhotra] Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab): My hon. Friend is making a characteristically passionate speech. We have heard This year, the Access to Cash Review’s significant about the provision of cash machines in rural areas and report found that 17% of Brits say that they would not in deprived areas, but does she agree that another cope without cash. As has been said, they are the most consideration is the provision of cash in market towns? vulnerable people, such as the disabled, the poorest and When the last bank closed in the small market town of the elderly, who are unlikely to be early adopters of Sowerby Bridge in my constituency, taking the cash contactless technology.Figures from the Financial Inclusion machine with it, there was a detrimental impact on the Commission suggest that they are also more likely to be market, and on its traders, who deal exclusively in cash. among the approximately 700,000 people in the UK who We really need to reflect on that problem as, I am sure, it want a bank account but, for various reasons, cannot is replicated all over the country. open one. Seema Malhotra: My hon. Friend makes an important There are significant regional, area-based and income- point. I agree that this whole debate also needs to be based disparities. More than 15% of people with an part of a strategy for towns, which are often left out of income under £10,000 rely completely on cash, in contrast how progress is made, how policy is implemented and with only 2.5% of those in the highest income bracket. who is the first to benefit when new resources are rolled People who have less access to cash are already subject out. The provision of financial services and ATMs is to a poverty premium; they have been left behind by absolutely vital for ensuring economic progress and the contactless and digital payment technologies and cannot viability of businesses. shop around to get the best deals. There are also difficulties for disabled people. Eleanor Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Southwood’sevidence to the Treasury Committee recounted (Lab): The banks are closing down everywhere and are how people who are blind or partially sighted can using the excuse that we can use post offices to access struggle to use a taxi driver’s touch screen PIN pad, and cash. Yesterday it was announced that 1,000 post offices then often need to give away their PIN. It is important are to go and more to follow. Sub-postmasters are not to think about the role of assistive technology in this making the same money as the banks. That is now space. As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for going to lead to a more cashless society. That, to me, is assistive technology, I understand the potentially what the banks are heading for. transformative impact of accessible technology and why Seema Malhotra: My hon. Friend’sextremely important it needs to be part of the debate about how financial point is one I was about to go on to. We have seen this services move forward. debate previously in relation to post offices, and have The gaps in broadband provision, including in rural then seen post offices become an important part of the communities, can make access to cashless payments strategy for maintaining access to cash—Mastercard more difficult. Indeed, broadband notspots are not and others are also working with them. Research from confined to rural areas; an estimated 1,000 households the Post Office shows that about 44% of small businesses in my constituency do not have access to decent-speed believe that the convenience of cash is essential to their broadband. Hounslow Council’s work to help to end business, and also that they use post offices. Yet, alongside notspots is a key part of the jigsaw, which will take this debate, we see these warnings, and alongside the years to deal with. challenges that the post office network faces, deprived The question is how we are going to respond to the and rural communities will have even poorer access to drivers of such changes, including new technologies, cash. lifestyles and uneven economic progress, and the Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab): My hon. Friend is consequences of the increasing cost of our nation’s making an excellent speech. Does she agree that the wholesale cash infrastructure, alongside the need for change in the post office contracts, particularly in the better financial education and financial inclusion. I local and local plus contracts, meaning that post offices thank the hon. Member for Solihull (Julian Knight) for get only £12 for handling £1,000 of cash, is driving being here and for his work on the all-party parliamentary down the provision of post offices in rural communities group on financial education for young people. and towns in particular? I will say a few words about supporting the cash infrastructure. We know that The Telegraph reported Seema Malhotra: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. last year that there were about 123 cash deserts—postcode Post offices in my constituency have raised similar concerns. areas that do not have a single ATM in their geographical Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I congratulate the coverage—and there are more than that now. A further hon. Lady on securing the debate. Should we also not 116 areas have just a single ATM, 36 of which are look at what I see as the opportunities to improve the fee-paying ATMs. The Association of Convenience Stores situation, including the opportunity to ensure more free also highlights how convenience retailers and ATMs cash machines supported by the banking system, which enable financial inclusion, but they are also under threat I hope the Treasury will take on? There is also an from high business rates bills and cuts to interchange fees. opportunity to require retail businesses to accept cash. In addition, research by the University of Bristol on The other day I walked into a Vodafone shop and the distribution of ATMs in that city has found that the they said that they did not accept cash—they had gone provision of cash is almost opposite to the geographical completely cashless. I thought, “What about vulnerable need for it. Lower-income communities are poorly served people? What can we do for vulnerable people?” Does by current cash infrastructure. ATMs are changing from the hon. Lady not agree that it is really important to do free to fee-charging, with deprived areas disproportionately that as well, and to maximise the opportunity for the hit. Of the 16 ATMs in Bristol that changed from free post office network to ensure that vulnerable people can to fee-charging between October 2018 and March 2019, still access cash and financial services in their often 11 were located in deprived areas. rural communities? 257WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 258WH

Seema Malhotra: The hon. Gentleman makes an unions are significant players: in Ireland 73% of the important point. Indeed, he has made similar important population are members of credit unions and in North contributions in his work on the Treasury Committee. America the figure is 43%. He talks about the acceptance of cash needing to be I am pleased that, following the publication of the part of the debate, and I know that other hon. Members Access to Cash Review report, there were moves to will be speaking on that issue later. It is an important respond to it very quickly.The Bank of England announced part of the jigsaw. that it would convene relevant stakeholders to design a I want to make a few points about our policy response new system for distributing cash on the basis of the and about how we need to move forward. The report concerns that had been identified. The Treasury Committee from the Access to Cash Review made five broad and took evidence and produced an important report on important recommendations: to guarantee access to consumers’access to financial services, which was published cash, to ensure that cash continues to be widely accepted, last week. The Treasury announced that it was commencing to create a more resilient wholesale cash infrastructure, a new joint authorities cash-strategy group, involving to make digital payments an option for everyone and to the Treasury itself, the Payment Systems Regulator, the ensure joined-up regulation of cash. Within that, there Financial Conduct Authority and the Bank of England. are important roles for national and local government, There will indeed be much work for the new body to do. banks, regulators, FinTech, building societies, payment systems operators and others. I also want to mention I would be grateful if in his response the Minister credit unions and their role, and I hope that the Minister updated Members on strategy formulation, and how will be able to respond to this important issue, as we the work of the group will operate alongside the work plan for the next decade and beyond. being done by the Bank of England. There needs to be more joined-up working, rather than silos, overlap and There are 1.9 million members saving £2.4 billion in duplication. I would also be grateful if he told us what the UK’s 500 credit unions. Credit unions are financial progress he expects to be made by the autumn, when I co-operatives and are therefore member-owned and understand the Access to Cash Review panel plans to democratically run. They have huge potential to play meet and review its progress; which consumer bodies much more of a role, but that will need support and will be involved in the development of the strategy, Government leadership. The Treasury Committee recently particularly co-operative institutions; and how the group raised concerns about credit unions either going bust or will respond to the individual recommendations made having to consolidate to survive, and there is an urgent by the Access to Cash Review panel. need to consider how we better support them. I want to make a few suggestions about how we can support the We face unique challenges in the modern world, and expansion of the UK credit union sector. A response we need to make sure that both Parliament and the from the Minister today on that would be helpful, and Government are responding to those challenges. Access perhaps we can continue the discussion after this debate, to cash is not a problem that is unique to the United which is only an hour and a half long. Kingdom, and neither is the need for robust legislation—as The first suggestion is to appoint a Minister for credit and when necessary—and regulation to ensure it. The unions [Interruption.] Yes, but I hope that the Minister Swedish legislature was recently forced to create a cross- has a cross-cutting responsibility and is committed to party commission on access to cash, due to a public placing credit unions at the centre of retail financial outcry after hospitals announced that they would no services to ensure more competition and choice in banking. longer accept cash payments. Swedish bodies and The Minister will know that the Treasury is responsible representatives repeatedly told the Access to Cash Review for credit union legislation and that other Departments that we needed to act now, as it is much harder to also have an important stake, especially the Department re-establish cash infrastructure than to preserve it. for Work and Pensions and the Cabinet Office. I hope Local authorities are an important part of this jigsaw he can discuss how, in his role, he will continue to join and of our response. My local council in Hounslow, led up that work across Government and where we might by Steve Curran and Lily Bath, is taking steps towards see faster progress. financial inclusion, which is vital as local authorities are The second suggestion is that all workers be given the at the forefront of helping local citizens deal with a lot right to save in a credit union directly from their pay. of changes. Those changes have come through welfare Some 39% of the population have no savings, and to reforms, but also from the housing crisis that we face—a counter that we believe that all employees should be number of people are in temporary accommodation, given the right to save directly in a credit union, by and may have been waiting for a long time—and are payroll deduction and at no cost to them. affecting people’s access to services in many ways, as Thirdly, all schoolchildren ought to be given the right well as their resilience. to join a credit union school savings club. Good savings I am pleased that there are more innovations in habits for life should be encouraged at an early age. All communication and that better research into segmentation policies in this area should reference credit unions as is under way, including understanding the financial able to take such deposits, in the same way as banks and capabilities of council tenants. A higher than expected building societies can. number of those tenants do not have bank accounts Fourthly, early changes should be introduced in the into which payments can be made, whether welfare or new legislative programme, to take the opportunity to other payments. That is why it is important that we all, build on the pre-election Treasury consultation on including local authorities, revisit the idea of closer credit unions and dismantle obstacles that prevent the working with credit unions. Given the importance of transformation of the UK credit union movement into this work, Parliament and Government must act to a player with the significance of its international peers. promote the role of local government in making sure Elsewhere, although there are market differences, credit that we preserve access to cash and financial services. 259WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 260WH

[Seema Malhotra] cannot simply adapt. They have poorer transport links to get them to the next branch; they have poorer connectivity To conclude, joining up how we move forward together in terms of digital options; they are scared of using is increasingly important, because of the complex map phone banking, and sometimes do not have the mobile of the stakeholders involved. We are not going to get signal that they require; and they have fewer cash machines. multiple chances at this; change is going to take time, Quite simply, those communities are an easy target for and it has to be done right. It has to be done with the our banks. Like many Members present, I have a higher right research, the right underpinning and the right number of older people—those over 65—living in my policy frameworks, with confidence, and with the message constituency, and those people rely heavily on that that if all those involved in financial services who have a banking provision. Some 20% of the population lives in stake and a role, including banks and those involved in rural areas, yet only 12% of bank branches are in those cash infrastructure, do not play their part effectively, areas. Banks exist to serve all consumers, but what we there will be regulation and legislation. We also need are seeing is banks serving urban consumers, with rural considerable programmes for digital inclusion, and consumers losing out. incentives to diversify services within the industry. We Time and again, the banks say that the solution is need to make sure that those services continue to reach digitisation. However, in Angus, only 83% are covered the people who need them and that cash continues to be by superfast broadband, so they immediately alienate accepted. the other 17%. We have lost a number of post office I also hope that we can have a discussion about how branches, and—as has already been mentioned—for this issue forms part of wider economic strategies, viability reasons, that is not going to pick up. Quite including industrial strategy. Labour has talked about frankly, the numbers do not stack up. Post offices do regional banks providing an opportunity to ensure financial not provide the same service: many services are missing, inclusion; there are examples from abroad that we can and we do not have privacy in our post offices. As we all learn from, including the Sparkassen, and the Mann know, when we go in to post our letters or a parcel, we Deshi bank in India—I have been looking at whether are often waiting in queues. It is not particularly private, we can do some reverse learning from that bank in my and often this is taking place in a small shop as well. constituency. Mobile technology, which some of our There is a whole host of issues; I do not have enough financial services have already begun to use, has been time to cover them all in three minutes, but one obvious vital in supporting women, particularly in rural areas—to issue is access to cash. We cannot continue to suggest set up their own businesses and manage their household that everybody is turning to digital, because we have finances. small shops; my high streets are struggling, and we need I thank organisations such as City Pay it Forward to ensure that they have access so that they are not that make an important contribution to increasing financial penalised every time somebody makes a card payment. education in our schools; as I mentioned before, I We need that continued access to be able to secure the consider that to be extremely important. Our new local future of our high streets. charity, Hounslow’s Promise, is working to make sure My final point, which I have made to the Minister that we have financial understanding and financial literacy, several times, is that we must look towards banking which are vital to ensuring that people can take advantage hubs. We have to look at alternatives to ensure our of new services that are on offer. consumers continue to have choice. Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair): I thank the hon. 9.58 am Lady for her knowledgeable, detailed and excellent speech. We are going to have to introduce a voluntary time limit Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I of three minutes, which I ask right hon. and hon. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham colleagues to try to stick to. and Heston (Seema Malhotra) on securing this debate. I will echo one of her points, and then throw in two 9.55 am other issues. Kirstene Hair (Angus) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve First, credit unions represent a potential solution to under your chairmanship, Sir Henry, and I thank the financial exclusion, but they suffer from regulatory hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) handicaps at the moment: they cannot offer a series of for bringing this important debate to the House. This products that are clearly in demand, including car lending, issue has been debated many times, and I see many insurance and credit card services, and they often cannot familiar faces in the Chamber today. offer services to small businesses. It would be helpful to hear from the Minister what action the Government will We are moving towards a cashless society far too fast, take to sort out the problems in this area, which I know and a number of our constituents are simply not ready. he is familiar with. Credit unions have been lobbying As the chair of the Access to Cash Review stated: for some time for legislative changes, and to get a more “If we sleepwalk into a cashless society,millions will be left behind.” sympathetic regulator. From what I can see, nobody on Between 2015 and 2017, I have lost 12 banks in my the FCA board has any credit union experience whatever. constituency. Since I was elected, I have lost the Royal There was someone in the past, but there does not seem Bank of Scotland, the Bank of Scotland, the Clydesdale to be anyone with any awareness of credit unions, and Bank and Santander, and my TSB branch has reduced that may explain why the FCA has interpreted the Credit its hours. That acceleration is concerning, and we cannot Union Act 1979 in a particularly restrictive way to date. continue to sit back and let it happen. We have to accept that there is a significant market In the short amount of time I have, I will raise three failure in the provision of financial services, but we should issues. First, rural areas are suffering most, because also accept that the big banks still have a responsibility when those areas lose a branch, their communities to help tackle the problem. They should be held to 261WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 262WH account for who they are lending to and in which but I agree that there may be a case for it in certain districts. In that sense, they should support a campaign places. We should celebrate, as the hon. Lady outlined, that the Centre for Responsible Credit is particularly alternative forms of saving and lending, such as credit vociferous in. It demands that banks publish what they unions, which I am personally very supportive of. If lend down to postcode level in an anonymous way. there is an argument for legislating, it may be around Through that, we could track the areas that are genuinely equalising the premium in accessing cash and the poverty being supported by the bigger players in the financial premium that goes on top for vulnerable people in services industry and the areas with a need for charitable accessing various things. We should foster competition activity or more support for credit unions. and celebrate those institutions and building societies, Lastly, if someone is looking for financial services such as Metro Bank, that are expanding their networks. products in media and advertising terms, they are deluged We should also look at how we expand the number of with services offered by the big banks or the payday bank accounts available for people. lenders. Credit unions and other charitable and not-for- profit lenders are not given anything like the same 10.4 am attention. There needs to be a significant effort by Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): It is a pleasure Government at all levels to promote alternative sources to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry.I congratulate of lending, with a particular focus on credit unions. my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) on securing this debate. It might 10.1 am seem counter-intuitive to suggest that access to cash is vital for financial inclusion, because everyone says the Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): It is a future is in FinTech, but my local authority did a survey pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. I two years ago to see how many people in Wigan use the draw attention to my declaration in the Register of internet regularly, and it found that 30% have never Members’ Financial Interests. I am also the chair or even accessed the internet. That is below the national vice-chair of various all-party parliamentary groups average. Many who do not access the internet are on that are pertinent to this debate and discussion. I lower than average incomes or are disabled or old. congratulate the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston Some 93% of those over 80 have never used internet (Seema Malhotra) on securing this debate on a hugely banking, and we need to think about those people when important issue that needs greater consideration than it we promote digital by default. It does not have be has had in this place. The issue affects us all, as we have online and cashless. outlined already, and I am sure Members will continue to do so. Clearly those without internet access cannot bank online, but with the pace of bank closures, neither are In my part of the world, our local newspaper the they able to do it face to face. Not only are the physical Derbyshire Times reported only last week that the number branches going, but the ATMs are going, too. In Wigan, of ATMs available in my constituency has reduced by we lost one in nine cash machines in less than two years. 20% over the past couple of years, from 137 to 111. We Yes, that is the cashless society, but many prefer to use have had the usual bank branch closures and changes. cash, particularly those on low incomes. If their income We lost another branch in Dronfield just a few months is tight, they need to be able to check every penny that ago. That was the Royal Bank of Scotland. We have lost passes through their hands, and cash is a tangible asset. our Lloyds branch in Clay Cross, and we continue to see People cannot go overdrawn with the money in their reductions in ATMs and the like. purse. We have to deal with those challenges, however, rather It is not just a few people who say it is important to than just moaning about them. There is a conundrum in have that access. A survey of more than 1,200 Which? front of us. People’s habits are changing, as is how members found four in five saying that access to the people want to bank. The numbers of people going into free-to-use network was important to their daily lives bank branches and using cash are decreasing. Cash is and for paying for goods and services. It found that now being used in three in 10 transactions—10 years ago, removing free-to-use access would leave one in 10 struggling it was six in 10—and that number will reduce further. to make payments. We therefore have to question the We have to find a way to balance the challenges that closure of so many ATMs and bank branches. As the have been rightly articulated by Members this morning hon. Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) said, we also with recognising that we cannot and will not stop progress. need to ensure that shops and businesses remain cash- We also have to recognise that there is a cost to the friendly and customers are not forced into paying by provision of cash. That cost may not be obvious to card. consumers, but it is built into the infrastructure and the There are many issues with paying by card. People do costs of financial services already. Essentially, we are not always trust online transactions, and I congratulate dealing with a classic long-tail problem. We have early the TSB on its fraud repay scheme, which creates more adopters. The majority of the market and a majority of trust in financial services. Access to banking and financial consumers can deal with this issue and are happy to do services is at the heart of the inclusion and exclusion so, but we rightly identify a group of vulnerable people debate. We need to be careful not to be drawn into and customers who we need to ensure are supported. saying that FinTech will be a universal panacea. It is Those consumers live in my constituency, as they do in vital that consumers have the freedom to pay for goods everyone else’s. and services however they choose. If we sleepwalk into In the brief time I have available, I will make a couple becoming a cashless society,it will have grave consequences of points and a couple of suggestions for things to for our most vulnerable people. I am not anti-technology; consider or where it might be useful for the debate to go we need to encourage people to face the future and to next. We should be careful about explicit legislation, embrace the advantages of technology, but we should 263WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 264WH

[Yvonne Fovargue] 10.10 am Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) not run before we can walk. For the foreseeable future, (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, cash and digital have to exist side by side and as Sir Henry. complementary tools in increasing inclusion and improving people’s lives. In my home town we have an excellent fish man called Steve who comes all the way from Buckie to flog 10.7 am his fish, and his smoked haddock is to die for. Steve is also a political sage. When he predicts that an MP will Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I thank the lose their seat, he is usually right, so I am very careful of hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) him. Steve takes cash for his fish. You could no more for bringing this debate forward. I speak as chair of the present your mobile or your card to pay by contactless APPG on credit unions and as a fellow member of the than fly to the moon. For many years, having ready cash Financial Inclusion Commission. When I first came to in one’s purse, wallet or pocket has been fundamental to this place two years ago, I visited a credit union just outside a civilised society. If we do not have it, we might as well my constituency that serves several of my constituents. go back, at least where I live, to bartering and swapping A lady there said something very important to me. She a salmon for a bag of peats or something like that. said, “Bim, it is very expensive to be poor.”I really thought about that, and everything I have seen in the past couple With the best will in the world, we cannot go entirely of years has confirmed my sense of the facts. We have digital or contactless in a constituency such as mine. As already heard that 39% of people have no savings. the hon. Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair) has said, When people have very little cash—or, should I say, there are many areas where the iPhone and iPad simply money, resources, or assets—it can often cost them so do not work. In the case of my own Bank of Scotland much to do things and to borrow money.They can quickly card, it is already playing up, so it does not always get fall beneath the waterline. That is one reason why credit money out of a hole in the wall or work when I go unions are so important, and I echo the things that have contactless. already been said about promoting credit unions. In my constituency we already have precious few Financial education has not particularly come up in ATMs. There has been talk of safeguarding them, but the debate. I lose track of the number of times that that is time limited. If a retail premises with a cash people have said over the past five, 10 or 15 years, “We machine shuts, the shop goes, the cash machine goes, need to promote financial education in schools. People and no safeguard in the world can stop that happening. need to learn better habits. They need to be able to manage their money more effectively. They need to understand Peter Aldous: The hon. Gentleman makes a very how mortgages work, how credit cards work, what good point. His constituency is similar to mine. Does he annual percentage rate is and what interest is”, yet we agree that 24/7 access to cash is important in market never do anything. Will the Minister respond to that in towns? Certainly I note a postcode lottery developing in his remarks? I know he is not the Education Secretary—at my area. least, not yet. Jamie Stone: That is absolutely correct. I compliment Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Does my hon. Friend the hon. Gentleman on his very good point. know something? There is a nasty parallel, as other Members have said, Bim Afolami: I do not say that with any knowledge between the closure of ATMs and the closure of bank at all. branches. In just a short time—can you believe this, Sir Henry?—we will have only one bank branch in the The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): whole huge county of Sutherland, which is 2,028 square I am happy where I am. miles. Imagine what that means for my constituents. There are, however, already examples of banks working Bim Afolami: That is good. I hope that the Minister together to form one-stop shops in southern conurbations will tell us what work he can do across Government to in England. I call on the Government and the Scottish champion financial education, which we all agree needs banks to do something similar for rural areas such as to be improved significantly. mine in Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross. The Minister wrote to me on 20 February about things that the Government were doing to promote I must give due credit to the Minister. We had a affordable lending and credit unions, and about the constructive meeting care of the right hon. Member for affordable credit challenge fund, a no-interest loan scheme. Don Valley (Caroline Flint) the other day. I believe that Those are all very good things, but I simply say to him: the Minister is on to the issue and is working well we want more. There is a need for legislative change to towards sorting it out, so I wish him Godspeed. If we allow all types of credit to be provided by credit unions. do not get it right at Government or bank level, it will If he pushed that through Government, he would be a be a fundamental failure and we will be letting down the hero not only on the Government’s side of the House poorer, as other Members have pointed out, and the but on the Opposition’s side as well. elderly, who absolutely rely on having 24/7 access to cash. The last thing I will say about the cashless society is this: I was on a trip to China a year or so ago and I was 10.13 am in a city called Wuhan, a long way away from Beijing, and I could not use cash. Things are moving very fast. I Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab): It could not use cash. We need to enable people to adapt is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. to the new society and not try to hold back the tide. The I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham Government need to help people achieve that. and Heston (Seema Malhotra) on securing this debate 265WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 266WH on an important issue. I agree with her point that there the Clydesdale Bank, which has announced that it plans is widespread concern across the country about access to shut the Shettleston Road branch. The Government to cash. It is hugely important to us all. We all need cash and the banks would say that the post office network to varying degrees for incidental purchases, giving children can provide support, but there is a flaw in that argument money for school, paying the milkman and so on. when we look at the Tollcross post office in my constituency, Access to cash is often, though not always, easier in which has had a temporary closure for two years now. I cities and towns, but our country is also made up of lots leave that point with the Minister. We are due to meet of smaller towns, villages and communities. tomorrow to discuss it a bit further. There are 2.2 million people in the UK almost entirely One thing that has most angered me has been that reliant on cash in their daily lives. We know that the use Santander and the Clydesdale Bank both proposed to of cash is in decline, but, as we have already heard, the remove the ATMs as well. Santander had the absolute UK is not ready to become a cashless society, and barefaced cheek to contact me to say, “This is a very sleepwalking into one will leave millions, including many well-used ATM machine. Can you help us find someone people in my constituency, behind. else to take it on?”, which is laughable. However,ATMs are The communities that I represent in Merthyr Tydfil hugely important to a local economy, and any moves to and Rhymney are ranked in the Welsh index of multiple remove them from the high street or to add charges to deprivation as some of the most deprived in the country. them has an impact on people from low-income areas Deprivation is measured by a range of statistics, including such as my own. In Cranhill and Sandyhills we already health inequalities, educational attainment, income levels see ATMs that now have a charge, which we are taking and access to services. In my constituency, some of the up with the ATM providers. economically deprived areas are also geographically Some Members have already touched on the issue of isolated communities, such as Bedlinog, Ponsticill, Fochriw, credit unions. Before I entered politics I worked in a Butetown, Abertysswg, Pontlottyn, Phillipstown and credit union, and only last month I chaired the summit Aberfan. Those communities have a strong community of a lot of Glasgow’s credit unions. It is no secret that in spirit and breathtaking views up or down the valley, but Glasgow we have had two credit unions go bust recently: they are often isolated from services and support. The most recently, Parkhead Credit Union. It is all well and Access to Cash independent review established in July 2018 good for us in this place to talk about the importance of concluded that around 17% of the UK population would credit unions, and I would absolutely encourage people struggle to cope in a cashless society. I welcome the to join a credit union. I should at this juncture declare recommendations in the review to ensure that consumers an interest as a shareholder in Cranhill and Baillieston can get cash wherever they live or work, and I look credit unions. There are, as I am sure the Minister forward to the further work to consider the report’sfindings. knows, issues relating to capital ratios and the governance In the south Wales valleys, as in many other parts of credit unions. More often than not when I visit my of the country, we have seen banks closing, with a local credit unions, most of the members of the board 38% reduction in the number of banks since 2010. In are well over retirement age, so if we are talking about the Upper Rhymney Valley part of my constituency, the the sustainability of credit unions, we need to look at last bank closed in January. On the Merthyr Tydfil side, that as well. the only banks that remain are in the town centre, leaving huge parts of the county borough without access The hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim to bank facilities. There are ATMs throughout the area, Afolami) touched on the important issue of financial but many impose a charge for residents to withdraw education. He is absolutely right to point out that it is their cash. As an example, Aberfan has three ATMs that an issue we have spoken about for a long time. If I all require a fee to be charged, and Bedlinog has two reflect on my own experiences, it was only in my late machines that are both chargeable. teens that I started to really understand budgeting and the importance of financial education. I very much Along with my Welsh Assembly colleague, Dawn commend Christians Against Poverty, which does really Bowden, I am currently working with the company good work supporting people with budgeting. If we are LINK to identify communities that have little or no serious about ensuring that young folk make informed access to free-to-use cash machines. We hope that shop decisions about their finances, we need to teach them owners will convert to free-to-use machines. As we about such things as APR the importance of ethical know, subsidies are available for cash machines located lending. One way of doing that is through credit unions. in deprived areas, with the first ATM to convert to free What discussions has the Minister had with Education usage receiving the subsidy. Ministries across the UK to ensure that we put pressure Geographically isolated communities often experience on Governments across these islands to invest in financial issues with digital inclusion because the broadband is education? not as strong as it is in other areas. The report and the attention that it has received is welcome. However, it This has been a good debate, and there is clearly an must be part of an ongoing awareness campaign to appetite for lots more debate. I hope that the Minister ensure that we move at a pace that does not leave will take the points raised on board. communities behind.

10.16 am 10.19 am David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP): I congratulate Martin Whitfield (East Lothian) (Lab): It is a pleasure the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry.I congratulate Malhotra) on securing the debate. In my constituency my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston we are fighting two bank branch closures: Santander at (Seema Malhotra) on securing the debate, and the Parkhead Forge, and, just recently and most unhelpfully, Backbench Business Committee on facilitating it. 267WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 268WH

[Martin Whitfield] argument for retaining cash in our society. Technology is great for those who do not want to use cash, but not The banking situation has changed substantially over so great for those who cannot use that technology, as the past 20 years. Indeed, some of the traditional banks hon. Members have mentioned. would say that the playing field is unfair as it stands. An estimated 17% of the UK population—more New incomers do not have the fixed asset responsibility than 8 million adults—would struggle to cope in a of our traditional banks, yet they pick up none of the cashless society. A decade ago, six out of 10 transactions responsibility for the financial exclusion towards which were cash; now it is three in 10. On a number of we are seemingly heading. Work is needed to ensure occasions in my constituency there has been a glitch in that all those that benefit as new emergent banks are the car parking payment system. Such glitches mean responsible for the traditional side of banking, which that issues with a 30p payment can lead to a £45 fine in forms such an important part of our communities, the post that is impossible to query, as other payments particularly our high streets. are supposedly logged as successful. There is a fear Scotland has suffered more bank closures than many among an older generation that if they cannot see or areas. Over the last eight years, the number of branches touch something, they cannot really have it. has fallen from 1,625 to 1,015. Indeed, more than I have also heard from several shop workers who have 400 have closed since just 2015. In East Lothian, virtually had to chase customers after their card payment did not all our towns—Tranent, Prestonpans, Gullane, North go through due to connection errors. Those are things Berwick and Dunbar—have suffered bank closures and that happen every day, and are real issues with cashless changes to ATMs and branch opening hours. options. They show that we are nowhere close to being We have heard about many important things, including able to do away with money. People want it all. For me, credit unions and education, which has thankfully opened that does not mean that we should do away with cash; the space for the use of hubs, to which the hon. Member we should embrace all payment methods. I hear the for Angus (Kirstene Hair) referred. The Royal Bank of banks crowing about how online banking is thriving, Scotland, Lloyds and Barclays have started business but sometimes signs tell us that we cannot lift money in hubs in England. Companies that have large amounts a bank unless the cash machine is broken, or that there of cash to deposit and want to transact business can go is a charge for paying a bill in the bank that can be paid into such hubs and deal with them, irrespective of for free online. Many such things annoy people, pushing which bank is theirs. them away from frontline banking and cash. Similarly, in Edinburgh and Glasgow an entrepreneurs’ Hailing from a mixed urban and rural constituency, I hub has been formed, orientated towards new businesses. fear that we are leaving behind too many isolated people, That model will work on our high streets. The challenge who cannot rely on technology and an internet connection. for banks is that, in essence, two separate software Some 60 bank branches and 250 ATMs across the UK systems are operated. However,that can surely be overcome. close per month. The Countryside Alliance has suggested The advantage of a hub, shared by branches, is that that the regulator take action to stop further closures of when someone goes in they are dealing with their bank. ATMs, that an access to banking protocol be introduced The challenge facing post offices is that often the employees so that when a branch moves, customers are made on the other side of the counter, employed by the Post aware of the banking services at the nearest post office, Office, do not have the banking experience or knowledge and that the Post Office and banks standardise the to deal with sometimes significant problems, and it is banking services over the post office counter. basically unfair to expect it of them. The move towards a cashless society risks creating Through legislation and Government and local authority vulnerable customers and exacerbating financial exclusion work, the facilitation of hubs would allow people to among those who cannot access those services. We have continue to deal with their bank. The asset cost would a duty to ensure that both forms of payment and be shared, and it would keep footfall on our high streets transaction are available. If that means Government so that there is cash for our markets and for people who intervention, I believe that that is what we must do. want to deal in it. Problems will be solved, and hopefully banking on our high streets will have a future. 10.26 am 10.22 am Ruth George (High Peak) (Lab): This is not a minor Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I, too, congratulate issue, particularly in constituencies such as mine with a the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema large rural area and market towns. The LINK Access to Malhotra) on introducing the debate and setting the Cash Review found that cash is an economic necessity scene. Building a relationship with staff enables trust to for 25 million people, and that 8 million adults—17%— be built, and with that comes a better working relationship. would struggle to cope in a cashless society. In my Although I am obviously of an older generation, I constituency, as in others that have been mentioned, understand that it is a lot simpler for my staff to log on banks, post offices and ATMs have closed, making it to online banking on their lunch and pay their credit more difficult not just for ordinary people to go about card bill than to spend their entire lunch in the queue at their everyday lives and make transactions, but for the bank. That leads to better working relationships market traders, those wishing to hold community events, between employer and employees. and charities—[Interruption.] I hope that we can all Notably, the bank is still busy: it is not failing or recover from that cry for attention from the alarm system. empty. There are always queues in my local branch, I was speaking about the problems faced by market because its presence is necessary. There is a need for the traders and charities in holding events, fundraising and ease that online provides, but there is an equal need for bring communities together. Such events rely on cash to a bank on the high street to service people. That is the make them happen. It is already becoming much harder, 269WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 270WH with insurance premiums and regulations governing them. The picture in my constituency is of a rapid removal That means that people are less and less able to hold of banking services. I represent one of the poorest such events to bring people together. A lack of cash constituencies in Scotland, which has seen a also means that people in rural areas who need it feel disproportionate decline in the number of bank branches that they have to take out larger sums when they travel and free-to-use ATMs. Indeed, one in five of Scotland’s to a town. That makes them more vulnerable to crime 6,000 ATMs will soon be fee-charging, while ATMs are and to people seeking to prey on them. The Government closing at a rate of one day. That significant decline is have to be mindful of that. disproportionately affecting the poorest communities in Post offices are expected to pick up the pieces of Scotland, so it is critical that we address the issue. access to cash, as well as the lack of banks. As I mentioned, post office contracts are extremely important. Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Sub-postmasters across my constituency on all different (SNP): I raised that very point in the main Chamber types of contract tell me that they are struggling, but just a few weeks ago. Ferguslie Park is the most deprived particularly those on the local and the local plus contract. community in Scotland, yet it has two ATMs, which However, it is not possible to scrutinise those contracts charge 95p and £1. That goes to show that LINK’s and how the changes have affected the profitability of financial inclusion programme is not worth the paper post offices. I urge the Minister to speak urgently to that it is written on. I am still awaiting a reply from colleagues in the Department for Business, Energy and LINK after a month. Does the hon. Gentleman agree Industrial Strategy about that much-needed review. that its inclusion programme needs to be improved? Convenience stores must not be left to carry the load. As chair of the all-party parliamentary small shops Mr Sweeney: I completely agree. My constituency, group, that is certainly close to my heart. At the moment, like the hon. Gentleman’s, has had a disproportionate 62% of convenience stores provide ATMs, almost three number of closures. I commend and thank the Select quarters of which are free to use. Interchange fees have Committee on Scottish Affairs, my hon. Friend the been reduced twice already, resulting in cuts worth more Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Ged Killen), than £1,000, split between the operator and the retailer. and the hon. Gentleman for their work on the issue. The In spite of the delay in next year’s cut, ATM operators LINK cut is critical, but we need legislative backing to serving 73% of free-to-use ATMs not hosted by banks are safeguard provision. Many small businesses, including now implementing or considering a decision to switch postmasters, are saying that they will not pay punitive to pay-to-use machines. They are also penalised by business rates to maintain free cash access. business rates; I call on the Minister to look strongly at The discussions about credit unions are pertinent, the fact that average ATM rates add £4,000 a year to the and I commend the hon. Member for Glasgow East bills of a small retailer. That seems punitive, certainly for (David Linden) and my hon Friendfor Harrow West free-to-use ATMs at a time when we need to encourage (Gareth Thomas) for speaking about their work on the them. issue. As a result of the closure of the Greater Milton LINK says that we need and Possilpark credit union, 4,212 members have had “a clear government policy on cash...market forces alone won’t that facility taken away. Santander is threatening to make any of this happen.” close and remove its ATM, just as in Parkhead. This is a Besides looking for a joined-up policy on cash in rural critical issue, because banks do not feel any sort of areas, towns and hard-to-reach areas, I encourage the obligation to maintain their provision. In America, Minister to look at the review of the interchange fee Santander has a £1.9 billion community reinvestment and at enabling banking in all areas, reviewing post fund because the American Government have forced it office contracts and profitability,and exempting free-to-use to do that in poorer communities, but there is no ATMs from business rates. If he wants some practical equivalent legislative obligation in the UK. methods to look at, I hope that that gives him a start. We need legislative teeth to back up the provision of Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair): Thank you for banking services in our poorest communities. I urge the being so brief. I call Paul Sweeney. Minister to recognise that urgent need in our communities, particularly in Glasgow North East. 10.30 am Mr Paul Sweeney (Glasgow North East) (Lab/Co-op): Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair): We want to leave Thank you for calling me to speak, Sir Henry.I congratulate two minutes at the end of the debate for the hon. my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) to (Seema Malhotra) on securing this critical debate at a wind up, so if the Front-Bench spokespersons confine time when our financial system is in flux. A decade ago, themselves to eight minutes each, I would be very six of every 10 purchases were made in cash, but that grateful. figure has now halved and in a few years’ time it will be only one in 10, so there is a clear transition. Sometimes 10.33 am it catches me out; when I was in church a couple of weeks ago, I realised as the collection plate came round Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I that I did not have any cash on me. The fear suddenly thank the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema struck me that I would be humiliated in front of the Malhotra) for securing this important debate. As we congregation, so I am heartened to see that the Church have heard today, there are serious concerns that too of Scotland proposes to introduce cashless collection many people, including some of the most vulnerable, plates, which will save me that embarrassment in future. are being left behind. That is just one example of how the transition to a Every one of us needs a viable way of paying for cashless society can catch us out suddenly and at the goods and services that meets our needs and circumstances. most unexpected moments, in a very public way. For some people that may be card payments, but we 271WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 272WH

[Patricia Gibson] Consumer organisation Which? has found that cashpoints disappeared at a rate of 488 per month need access to cash for goods and services if that is most between June and December last year, with more than appropriate to the way we live our lives and if it suits 250 free-to-use cash machines closing monthly and our circumstances. Digital payments have become easier, 3,300 UK bank branches closing their doors since 2015. but research shows that more than 8 million adults One in five cash machines in Scotland will impose would struggle to cope in a cashless society. charges by the end of this year. It is self-evident that It is important to remember that many people pay for charges for using ATMs hit those who are much less goods and services in cash because their circumstances affluent much harder, because those people are more mean that they do not have the option to pay in any likely to make regular smaller withdrawals rather than other way. The biggest factor in paying for goods and occasional larger ones. Quite contrarily, pay-to-use cash services in cash is where someone is on the income scale: machines are most often found in poorer areas—yet the lower someone is down the scale, the more likely another poverty premium that punishes the less well-off. they are to rely on cash transactions, regardless of their It is clear that we need urgent regulatory action to age. Importantly, approximately 9% of those who rely protect the right of consumers to use cash. Otherwise, on cash transactions do so as a budgeting strategy as the Minister will know, we will exclude many of our because they fear that if they do not use cash, they may constituents from buying goods and services that they overspend and fall into debt. Using cash helps them to wish to access. I therefore fully support the Which? keep track of their spending. campaign “Freedom to pay.Our Way.”, which is supported There is no doubt that cash allows many people a by the Federation of Small Businesses. The campaign degree of control that digital transactions do not offer, calls on the Government to appoint a regulator with as we heard from the hon. Member for Strangford sole responsibility for cash infrastructure, to ensure that (Jim Shannon). They can hold it and count it—and consumers and businesses can continue to access cash. when it is gone, it is gone. It is a real and physical aid to It should not be an uphill struggle for people to access budgeting. Indeed, debt advice charities actively encourage the cash on which they rely, because it means that they people in debt to cut up their cards and deal only in struggle to go about their daily business. cash, for obvious reasons. That goes back to the points The drift towards digital has not been without its that have been made about financial education. problems, including IT glitches such as the high-profile We have heard much about the decline of ATMs, but problems suffered last year by TSB, which caused chaos that is merely the tip of quite a significant iceberg—it is for consumers. As the hon. Member for Feltham and a symptom of a wider trend. The underlying issue is Heston reminded us, aside from IT glitches, people that some businesses prefer payments to be made digitally, living in rural areas can find digital access extremely because of the costs of handling and banking cash; we problematic, with poor broadband reliability. Of the heard today that Vodafone no longer accepts cash payments 5.3 million adults who never use the internet, 70%—some at all. We have also heard much about access to high 3.7 million people—live in rural areas. They do not rely street banks. In my constituency, North Ayrshire and on cards and digital payments. We must not overlook Arran, the banks are stampeding out of our towns with the challenges of relying on digital payments for consumers alarming and eye-watering speed. In the past eight and businesses in rural areas, as mentioned by the hon. years, Scotland has lost one third of its banks, and Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross closures continue apace, as the hon. Members for East (Jamie Stone). Lothian (Martin Whitfield) and for Glasgow North It is essential that consumer interests are front and East (Mr Sweeney) described. centre in this debate—the customer must be king. The way Driving consumers towards digital payments clearly we bank and the way we pay for our goods and services excludes those consumers who do not want—or simply must meet the needs of all customers, and banks and do not have the option—to pay for goods digitally. If financial institutions must have a legal duty of care for we want businesses to continue to accept cash, we have their customers. to make it easier for them to do so, and to bank and I hope the Minister will indicate the Government’s deposit it in a way that works for them. Post offices have willingness to appoint a regulator with sole responsibility been suggested as an alternative to banks, but post for the cash infrastructure, to ensure consumers and offices are in crisis. Many postmasters are finding their businesses can continue to access cash. I hope to hear business increasingly unsustainable, and they often work what he will do to ensure a duty of care in all our for less than minimum wage—an issue that I raised with communities so that they are not financially excluded the Treasury and with Post Office Ltd almost two years and can access the goods and services that they need. It ago. is clear from this debate that there is a financial exclusion For those who need to use cash, we must keep it crisis. I am sure we are all keen to hear what measures viable. It is important to remember that 1.3 million the Government will take and are willing to take to people in the UK do not even have a bank account, for address the matter. a whole variety of reasons. Problems with ATM access are both a cause and a symptom of a society that is 10.41 am moving closer to being cashless. That should give us Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): cause for real concern. I thank you, Sir Henry, for giving me the opportunity to respond to the debate. I thank my hon. Friend the Member Mr Sweeney: Will the hon. Lady give way? for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) for securing this debate on such an important issue. It is good to see Patricia Gibson: I am worried about time, so if the such a significant turnout of colleagues. There has been hon. Gentleman does not mind, I will press on. a fair degree of consensus in what has been said. 273WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 274WH

As shadow City Minister, I spend a great deal of time Government, there would be mandatory consultation thinking about how financial services can be changed to on bank branch closures, given the negative impact they improve financial inclusion and how we can remove the have on communities, which many Members have poverty premium that we know exists in the UK and referenced. I am mindful that we have held quite a few that so many Members have referenced. For me, it is Westminster Hall debates on this topic recently, and impossible to build a fair society—the kind of society Members will have heard our views then, so I want to we all want—without guaranteeing a degree of access focus on the ATM estate. to basic financial services. It always confounds me that We know that the number of ATMs has dropped we are one of the most advanced global financial centres significantly. There are complex factors at work that we in the world, yet there are 1.6 million adults in the UK must be mindful of. We should focus on protecting who remain unbanked, and thousands more who are ATMs in communities that would end up being stranded denied access to the basic levels of credit that many of long distances from free access to cash if they were to us take for granted. close. LINK’s offer to pay a subsidy on those machines When I look to the future, I see the challenge as of up to £2.75 is an important step towards preventing making sure that we can use new technology to tackle cash deserts from emerging. financial inclusion, rather than compound the problem. In other places, especially city centres, we will ultimately Some new financial technology companies are doing see that there is an excess of cash machines. It is brilliant work to break down historical barriers in banking, inevitable that there will be closures in areas of high such as providing easier access to bank accounts or concentration. For example, I am planning to go home using rental payment data to help build up credit scores, today and when I get to Manchester Piccadilly station, but technology risks leaving people behind if we do not there are at least six free-access cash machines on the protect and equip them along the way. That has been station. I think that will probably decline over time. evident in the trends surrounding the use of cash. I add a word of caution. We must be alert as politicians As many Members have said in the debate today, our and regulators not to be seen as being there to protect use of cash as a nation is declining. According to figures the incumbents from the consumer change that we have from the British Retail Consortium, cash accounted for seen. We can protect access to cash at the same time as just 22% of retail transactions in 2017, which is an recognising changing consumer habits. inevitable consequence of the rise in popularity of We must also must be open-minded about creative contactless and mobile payments, but there is a significant solutions that will help to safeguard choices for everyone danger of sleepwalking into a cashless society without in how we pay. Lloyds Banking Group, for example, has giving careful thought to what that will really mean. launched a pilot scheme to incentivise cashback by Some communities, especially vulnerable ones, are still paying retailers a small fee per transaction. We will have reliant on cash and their ongoing access to cash must be to see the results to ascertain whether it is effective, but protected. I unreservedly commit the Opposition to at face value it seems like an interesting addition to the that position. provision of cash. Cash can be expensive for shops to Some poorer families and individuals need cash to process and handle securely, yet keeping a small cash budget effectively, a point that was well made by my float that can be passed on to consumers would help hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue). address that problem. It means they can still accept some There is no solution that compares with cash for people cash from customers who want to use it, and it would who are reliant on, for example, a carer to carry out encourage visits to the high street. The point about tasks for them—it is quick and easy to see how much business rates raised by my hon. Friend the Member for change there is when a carer has done the shopping for High Peak (Ruth George) must also be addressed. There someone—and, of course, for the unbanked, cash is a will not be one panacea that regulators can impose to lifeline without which participation in society would solve access to cash. The solution will lie in deploying a simply be impossible. It is up to us to carefully consider mix of such co-operative tools that see banks and shops access to cash and to create a system that protects more working together. vulnerable individuals. The Opposition urged the Treasury to open an urgent Natalie Ceeney’s Access to Cash report, which was review into access to cash when Natalie Ceeney’s report commissioned by Link and has been referenced quite a was published. I am pleased that those calls have been lot in the debate, outlined the situation we face and heeded with the establishment of the Joint Authorities made some sound recommendations for consideration. Cash Strategy Group, which must act quickly to ensure The Chair of the Treasury Committee noted at the time that the future of cash can be safeguarded. I am particularly that keen for local communities to be given the right to “leaving the future of cash to be determined by market forces will demand a review of access to cash in their areas, which not work.” the regulator will then have to respond to if necessary. The Opposition certainly agree with that. For our part, the Opposition are ready to support any effort that moves us towards treating cash as the essential Establishing cash as a utility will be central to protecting utility it is, guaranteeing access to it for all and protecting consumer access. I have heard quite a lot of support for cash for those who really need it. that in my initial conversations with the big UK banks, with ideas such as how they could share cash-centre facilities—the sort of back-office function that underpins 10.48 am much of the cash system. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): Bank branch closures form a critical part of this It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, debate. In the Opposition’s view, the reduction of the Sir Henry. I thank the hon. Member for Feltham and bank branch estate has been too severe. Under a Labour Heston (Seema Malhotra) for securing this important 275WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 276WH

[John Glen] to the hon. Member for High Peak (Ruth George), I make the following observation on an initiative by debate. I commend her for encouraging us to consider Square, a digital payments company that recently did a the issue across multiple areas,because it is in understanding trial in Holywell to help small, independent retailers how things fit together that we will find some of the take card payments. It found that 55% of shoppers in solutions that the 15 speeches that I have carefully Wales would be more likely to shop locally if businesses listened to in this morning’sdebate have drawn attention to. took cards, which has led to more than 95% of the To improve financial inclusion, we need to be firing town’s independent shops now taking cards. It works on all cylinders, bringing together regulators, civil society both ways, and FinTech provides new opportunities. and industry—from the big banks to credit unions—to The shadow Economic Secretary mentioned the ensure we create a financial services landscape that offers important initiative by Lloyds, in partnership with Visa. something for every consumer. I am keen to engage I note his reference to the Post Office, which provides with the points made. I will have further conversations, for cash withdrawals and cash and cheque deposits at including with the hon. Member for Glasgow East each of its 11,500 branches across the UK. Indeed, a (David Linden) tomorrow; I have attended the all-party sub-postmaster in Devon, whom I met last year, recently parliamentary group of the hon. Member for Makerfield contacted me again to say that banking transactions (Yvonne Fovargue) and met a number of other colleagues, have really boosted business at his rural post office, who are here today, on specific matters. I will try to which is hosted in a library. I will meet him next week to attend to all the points in my response. look at that and at what lessons can be learned across It is undeniable that the retail financial landscape is the country. changing, as more consumers and businesses opt for the I am sensitive to the points raised by the hon. Members convenience, security and speed of digital payments for Feltham and Heston and for Harrow West and digital banking. At the end of 2017, debit cards (Gareth Thomas) on credit unions. I want to update the overtook cash for the first time as the most frequently Chamber on that matter, which I take very seriously. used payment method in the UK. It is also true that There are 440 credit unions across the United Kingdom, increasing digitalisation and technological innovation and it is a question of distilling exactly what they want are changing not just the way we pay for things, but to happen. When I spoke to a number of CEOs of every part of our society—from communications to credit unions at the Association of British Credit Unions shopping, and from transport to healthcare. It is an Limited conference on 9 March, it was clear that they exciting but disruptive time. I acknowledge that it is a have initiated a national call for evidence and will come confusing time for some of our constituents, as they back in September with a clear ask of Government struggle to keep pace with the rate of change. about what legislative action needs to take place. As the hon. Member for Glasgow East helpfully pointed out, The Government recognise that there is a need for there credit unions have a whole range of experiences. It cash and traditional face-to-face methods of banking. is not a question of the Government’s mandating them Although financial firms take operational resilience to be set up, because that would not work. We have very seriously—indeed, last Monday I visited Barclays initiated a pilot for prize-linked savings, and I hope that Joint Operations Centre to see how the bank is keeping will actually increase the use of credit unions. I note the its customers safe from cyber-attacks—we cannot guarantee suggestions about getting schoolchildren involved in that IT systems will never fail. Cash is therefore a the use of credit unions, and I am open to looking at crucial back-up system that many people continue to how that could be advanced. rely on. Wehave heard that cash remains some people’spreferred, Mr Sweeney: Will the Minister give way? or only, method of payment for a variety of reasons. I am sensitive to that, and it is important that the Government John Glen: This is the only time I will, because I have act. We have expressed our commitment to safeguarding to make progress. access to cash for people who need it. As the hon. Mr Sweeney: I spoke to John Lyons, who runs the Member for Feltham and Heston acknowledged, we Carntyne and Riddrie Credit Union. He made it clear have set up the Joint Authorities Cash Strategy Group, that the reason the Greater Milton and Possilpark Credit which brings together the Bank of England, the Payment Union failed my constituents was that credit unions Systems Regulator and the Financial Conduct Authority, were previously allowed to share resources between to provide comprehensive oversight of the UK’s cash each other. Owing to punitive restrictions on regulations, infrastructure, from supply to customer access. The that is no longer the case, which is why individual credit announcement was made a couple of weeks ago, and unions are more vulnerable to failure. the group’s work will complement the Bank of England’s work to reform the wholesale cash industry, so that it John Glen: I am always sympathetic and listen carefully encourages innovation and guarantees resilience, even to credit union chief executives and their experiences. I in a lower cash usage environment. As cash is used less, have been in the Treasury for 16 months, and rarely we need to refine the way it is distributed, because the does a week pass without my receiving notification of a existing method is too expensive and needs to be improved. credit union that could be in difficulty. If we are to Industry has a central role to play in maintaining loosen the regulatory reform and enable more transactions access to cash, because with industry innovation we can and more functions of credit unions, we need to ensure do more at a lower cost. As the Access to Cash Review that we have the governance in place, so that people do showed, creative industry initiatives are already being not fall foul of credit unions that go the wrong way. It is developed. In conjunction with PayPoint, Link is exploring a complex area. I am not trying to be patronising, but it a new service that offers cash and balance inquires is important that we get a joined-up policy solution that through PayPoint’sconvenience store terminals.In response pays attention to the sector’s requests. 277WH Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash21 MAY 2019 Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash 278WH

Although maintaining access to physical banking We cannot reverse digital innovation and nor should and cash is important, there is another, equally important we, given the benefits it brings to our constituents. side to this story: ensuring that the benefits of new I want to end with a call to arms to industry to think technology are felt by all, and that everyone has the about all consumers—not only when it is considering ability to participate. For people who need to keep tight the future of cash and physical banking, but when it control of their money, and for those who cannot afford designs new digital products and brings new innovations to lose a penny, the ability to check their bank balance to the market. I will keep pushing industry to achieve on the go, or to freeze a card instantly, is critical. We this, and I hope hon. Members will join me in doing so. know that too many people are currently excluded from such benefits. 10.58 am Recognising that the advantages of digitalisation should Seema Malhotra: I thank the Minister and the shadow be felt by all, the Government’s digital strategy commits Minister for their remarks. I also thank the Minister for to enabling people in every part of society to access the recognising that this is a confusing time, that the rate of opportunities of the internet. We have established the change is faster than we had predicted, and that cash is digital skills partnership to bring together the public, required. He made a very important point on cash private and third sectors to address the digital skills gap being a back-up if a system of technology fails. I thank in a more co-ordinated and collaborative way. From all hon. Members who have taken part in the debate, 2020 we will introduce an entitlement for adults who including the hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden lack basic digital skills to undertake fully funded basic (Bim Afolami), who helped me pitch this subject to the digital skills training. This new entitlement will mirror Backbench Business Committee. existing entitlements for adult literacy and numeracy We absolutely cannot sleepwalk into a cashless society. training. Equally, we cannot turn the clock back on progress. I want to address the point made by my hon. Friend However, the market is failing and we need to intervene. the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Bim Afolami). We also need to ensure that it continues to be affordable The new Money and Pensions Service will simplify the to accept cash, requiring joined-up action to reduce the current public financial guidance landscape and offer a cost, reform our cash infrastructure and ensure efficiency more holistic approach to financial education. I am and resilience. Where needed, we must also incentivise talking to representatives of UK finance and the voluntary joint industry working in the design of consumer services sector to look at how we can get a more co-ordinated and products that are based on need. If that requires approach to financial education, which is always raised further supply-side reforms to enable hubs and provide in these debates. more opportunities to work together, we need to grasp The Government recognise that access to the internet that challenge—both in terms of policy and of shifting depends on being able to connect to it, and we are our culture. I recognise some of the interesting ideas making progress with this problem. Superfast broadband, coming from Mastercard and Visa—including jam-jarring providing downloads of at least 24 megabits per second, to help with savings, and support for credit union is now available to 96% of UK homes. Hon. Members infrastructure—but there needs to be so much more. will have seen that last Sunday we launched the Rural I thank Natalie Ceeney and her panel for their work Gigabit Connectivity programme,a £200 million investment on the Access to Cash Review. Government action is that will enable communities that have not previously welcome, but it cannot be on a slow burn—for example, benefited from broadband to leapfrog to the most advanced the no-interest loan scheme pilot, which was announced fibre technology. I hope that will be a solution for last year, has not yet progressed. We need to continue colleagues who represent the most rural constituencies. working together on this issue, and I look forward to I will conclude, in order to give the hon. Member for doing so. Feltham and Heston an opportunity to respond. We all Question put and agreed to. agree that vulnerable customers must not be left behind Resolved, as digitalisation changes the way we bank and pay for That this House has considered financial exclusion and the things. Of course, part of that is about ensuring that future of access to cash. physical banking and cash remain available to people who need it—the Government, regulators and industry Sir Henry Bellingham (in the Chair): I thank right are already taking action to ensure this. However, it is hon. and hon. Members for their patience and restraint equally important that we redouble our efforts to ensure in restricting their speeches to the limit. This has been that all our constituents benefit from new technology. an excellent debate. 279WH 21 MAY 2019 Secondary School Standards: 280WH East Cleveland Secondary School Standards: performance. However, by the end of key stage 4, the East Cleveland north-east ranks ninth out of the nine regions: we are bottom of the pile when it comes to the average Progress 8 and Attainment 8 schools. Pupils in London achieve 11 am an average of a fifth of a grade more than the average Mr Simon Clarke (Middlesbrough South and East for pupils with similar starting points, but those in the Cleveland) (Con): I beg to move, north-east achieve an average of over a fifth of a grade less. Only 57% of secondary schools in the north-east That this House has considered secondary school education are rated “good” or “outstanding”, compared with the standards in East Cleveland. national average of 75%. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Henry. I was prompted to seek this debate by recent In last December’s Ofsted annual report, fully 10% of Ofsted reports about two of the large secondary schools secondary schools in the north-east were classified as in East Cleveland in my constituency—Freebrough “stuck”, compared with just 3% in the south-east and Academy in Brotton and Laurence Jackson School 2% in London. In 2015, Sir Michael Wilshaw spoke of a in Guisborough. Both were rated “inadequate” in every divided nation beyond the age of 11. That is a concept measure of their assessments, and that is rightly a that really worries me and my constituents, and speaks source of huge concern for pupils, parents and teachers volumes about the way in which social justice issues alike.The report on Freebrough, in particular,was damning need to be addressed in this country. What makes this beyond words. Pupil progress was rated “very poor”, particularly painful is that we know it does not have to and there had been a dramatic decline from the high be this way. Across our country as a whole, 2 million standards set under the previous head, Linda Halbert. more children are now going to schools rated “good” or Even more seriously, leaders are unsure where pupils “outstanding”, compared with when the Conservatives are for extended periods of time, and instances of came to office nine years ago. Only 4% of schools are bullying are not rare. rated “inadequate” today, but someone who lives in When I visited the school earlier this year, I was East Cleveland now has about a 50% chance of going to genuinely shocked. It was the week when the Northern an “inadequate” secondary school. That, of course, Education Trust had come in to take over the management directly affects life chances. of the school, with a new headteacher, Mr Michael Robson, poised to take charge the following Monday. The proportion of 16 to 24-year-olds not in education, The scenes were like a caricature from “Grange Hill”, employment or training stood at 15.2% across the north-east with gangs of pupils wandering the school during lesson at the end of 2018—by a distance the worst statistic of time, flaunting their total lack of respect not just for any English region. When it comes to the proportion of teachers but for the whole concept of learning. The 18-year-olds starting higher education, in 2018 the north- team from the NET has been working very hard to turn east had the second lowest rate at just over 29%. By that around, and I am looking forward to visiting contrast, in London the figure is 42%. To fix this, we Freebrough again this Friday to see what progress has need nothing less than a moral crusade not to allow the been made. north-east to continue to spin away from the rest of the country in that fashion, like a probe receding ever The situation at Laurence Jackson is not in the same further into space. The point is that behind every one of league, although that is clearly a low bar. Ofsted explicitly these statistics lies a child, like my own three-year-old—a recognised that the appointment of Mrs Juckes as young person for whom opportunities are being slammed headteacher last September had started the process of shut almost before they become aware of them, and for improvement, although at the time of the inspection in whom adult life is that bit less likely to deliver the February insufficient progress had been made for anything fulfilment, both economic and emotional, that it is our other than an “inadequate”rating to be issued. Thankfully, duty to help promote to the utmost of our ability. I the school has commissioned external advice on how know that the Minister cares very deeply about that, but best to deliver services such as special educational needs we simply have to do better. funding and the pupil premium. I hope that that will make a real difference to the quality of the offer that it I meet my local headteachers every term to talk about makes to children in Guisborough, although things will their issues and concerns, and I always come away clearly need to be kept under close review. inspired by the men and women I meet, by their Both schools shine a light on the systemic challenge determination not to make excuses, and to offer blood, that we face in the north-east of England, and in the sweat and tears to do the right thing and deliver the best borough of Redcar and Cleveland in particular—namely, education they possibly can. The same spirit drives the the gulf in performance between primary and secondary great majority of the teachers they lead. I promised education outcomes. We also need to talk about why them that I would bring their concerns directly to that occurs and move beyond the superficial debate that Westminster and give them a voice, which brings me sometimes characterises this issue. In 2018, pupils in the to the central theme I want to address today. If we are north-east ranked second only to London for the percentage to turn this around, we need to think much less about of pupils reaching the expected key stage 2 standards in geography and how the north-east compares with other reading, writing and maths. That is to say that we rank regions, and more about the socioeconomic profile of second of the nine regions of England. The think tank the young people who live in the north-east. We need to IPPR North specifically singled out the high performance end the situation whereby demography equals destiny. of Redcar and Cleveland in its 2016 report “Northern If my local headteachers were here, they would rightly schools”, highlighting how it excels at primary education say that we simply cannot ignore the impact of deprivation, and achieves results outstripping most London boroughs, both material and in terms of aspiration, on the challenges which are widely regarded as the benchmark for high facing our local schools. 281WH Secondary School Standards: 21 MAY 2019 Secondary School Standards: 282WH East Cleveland East Cleveland Redcar and Cleveland is a place where great natural who I mentioned a moment ago, has highlighted how beauty and pockets of affluence mingle with the grittiness additional funding received by schools is the same for of one of England’s last great centres of heavy industry. every pupil premium child. When he wrote his analysis Communities like Skinningrove, Carlin How, Loftus and in September 2017, that was £1,320 each year for primary Liverton Mines typify the rural and coastal communities schools and £935 for secondary schools. Surely, there is that have attracted a lot of analysis and attention from a strong case for differentiating the funding according the Government and think tanks in recent years. They to the percentage of time that each pupil has been are places where life can be really hard. Although my eligible for free school meals, or, in other words, to focus constituency shares much of the geographyand appearance the most resources on the most deprived, even within of neighbouring North Yorkshire, which is a stone’s the pupil premium funding envelope. Treadaway has throw away, the reality is quite different and at times the shown that that could be implemented in a way that gulf feels much more than just a couple of miles. As would result in an overall funding change no larger than Professor Becky Allen has shown, if we factor in 5% for each region of England. That would benefit measurements of contextual value added, which truly areas such as the north-east, the north-west and the take pupil demographics into account, we can draw a west midlands, where poverty is the most densely clustered. very different picture of the relative success of north-east Thirdly—to move beyond funding—we need to align schools. incentives properly to attract the best teaching talent Accounting for that deprivation is not to accept what and leadership to our region. Will the Minister set out President George W Bush memorably called how she thinks we can best address the vicious circle “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. whereby poor Ofsted reports, such as those for Freebrough Like me, local school leaders reject that utterly for their Academy and Laurence Jackson School, can make it pupils. People from Middlesbrough South and East harder to attract and retain good teachers and school Cleveland are no less talented than young people from leaders in the schools where they are most obviously elsewhere, and should settle for no less. One of the needed? greatest challenges of life in the north-east more generally We must have such hard-edged accountability, which is ensuring that we have confidence in our region and is one of the reasons why I totally reject Labour’s new our strengths and are willing to go toe to toe with other policy of abolishing SATs, but equally, we must ensure areas. The confidence of the wider region was shaken that the system supports teaching professionals who are severely during the 1980s. With the decline of much brave enough to get stuck in where they are most traditional heavy industry, we lost a lot of our sense of needed. Frankly, we do not need the most inspirational place and purpose in the world. That has had lasting and people in strong schools. We need them to bring their complex consequences. In focusing on these issues in talents to bear in the north-east of England. Whether the context of education, the real problem is not that we attract them through salary incentives, professional secondary schools in my region are worse as a group status, the honours system, or anything else, we must be than those elsewhere but that they face particularly more creative. How does the Minister think we can serious challenges in terms of the profile of the pupils achieve that? they educate. Beyond funding, my fourth priority is to adopt policies Research by Mike Treadaway for Education Datalab, to tackle the catastrophic decline in the self-esteem and which I will share with the Minister after the debate, motivation of white working-class children over recent finds that the impact of disadvantage varies according decades. That goes back to my earlier point about the to the number of times that a pupil has been entitled to lasting impact of de-industrialisation on my region. free school meals throughout their time in school. More Children from other ethnic backgrounds perform far specifically, the attainment gap of pupils who have been better than their white peers. Astonishingly, that happens eligible for free school meals just once in six years is almost regardless of whether those minority pupils are about half that of pupils who have been eligible on every rich or poor. We must not hide away from that. My occasion. Regions with lots of entrenched multigenerational constituency is made up of about 98% white people and disadvantage, such as Middlesbrough and Redcar and the predominant number of them are working-class. Cleveland, therefore face a particular challenge. Anyone who watched last year’s BBC documentary What does that mean for policy? First, we have to deliver “The Mighty Redcar” will have seen what a brilliant, a fair school funding system, which is a matter of broad amusing and inspiring set of young people we have agreement, and was a Conservative manifesto commitment locally, some of whom, I have no doubt, will set the in 2017. The north-east is not penalised as grotesquely world on fire with their achievements in the years to as some parts of the country by the broken system built come. What is the Government’s plan to engage those up over the last several decades, but I simply cannot young people as a cohort, and to challenge the all too explain or justify the scale of funding disparity between prevalent culture that often sets little store by academic different parts of our country. attainment, or, at its worst, sometimes takes a perverse I know that establishing an objective and empirical pride in shunning it altogether? formula is fiendishly complex, but we now have to wait In particular, can we target budgets for pedagogical until 2021 for a rational formula to be brought into full research into how best to reach young people from operation. I urge the Minister to ensure that her Department really deprived backgrounds? Can we tackle questions accepts no further delays to the roll-out of fair funding, such as how best to teach an 11-year-old boy who and to go in to bat for a more generous school funding comes from a home where he has never had a discipline settlement in the comprehensive spending review. structure? That leads to the awkward point where schools Secondly, and more importantly, we need to look at find themselves playing the role of parent or social how that education funding can be distributed to best effect, worker, and large amounts of time and resources—both and I will talk about the pupil premium. Mike Treadaway, emotional and financial—have to be devoted to looking 283WH Secondary School Standards: 21 MAY 2019 Secondary School Standards: 284WH East Cleveland East Cleveland [Mr Simon Clarke] externally organised fair or workshop that highlights the skills needed for the workforce. That is exactly what after those children. It is simply not the case that those we need. It speaks to the wider mission beyond our schools inherit intakes of pupils who are all ready and education system, namely, to ensure that our young well equipped to succeed at the point of entry.Consideration people can go on to thrive in the world of employment of how to tackle that systematically and fairly needs the and that they are not just educated but employable, and closest possible engagement by Government and civil have the right skills, modelled for the local labour society. market, to ensure that their aspirations are achievable. I look forward to meeting the inspirational Loftus Last Friday, I visited Easterside Academy in martial arts group in the next few weeks. They are a Middlesbrough, in my constituency.Wewitnessed personal, really good example of how the voluntary sector can social, health and economic education lessons for a play its part in establishing boundaries, purpose, teamwork, year 6 group, who played the Game of Actual Life. It and all the values that are needed to succeed in life. It is was a really thought-provoking session, which was brought important that Government play a role, too. Highlighting in externally by expert Simon Carson, who is also a the problem is not to downplay what is already being constituent of mine. It tried to focus young people achieved but to recognise that, across the north-east, we growing up in one of the tougher parts of an industrial have to do more and do it better. town such as Middlesbrough on what they want to do I would not want my speech to suggest that there are with their lives and how they can achieve that. Such no hugely positive things under way in East Cleveland. programmes demonstrate exactly what we need to do. There are schools that show just what can be achieved When I asked the boys, many—too many, frankly—said in our area, such as Outwood Academy Bydales in that they would be footballers. I absolutely hope that Marske, which was rated “outstanding” last year, or many go on to achieve those dreams, but we also need Nunthorpe Academy in Middlesbrough and Huntcliff to ensure that realistic, understandable and equally School in Saltburn, which were both rated “good”. exciting opportunities are open to them. I was genuinely delighted in particular by the £24 million Measures such as that should give my constituents announced by the Government last October for the real hope that things will get better. As we create Opportunity North East initiative, which has a specific thousands of jobs on Teesside over the next few years, focus on closing the gap between primary and secondary the next generation of Teessiders will be well equipped outcomes. We know that we can do it at primary level to take them. That outcome lies at the heart of my plan and that what we are doing works, so we need to ensure for my constituency, and at the very heart of my wider that the right lessons are learned about how to extend political philosophy.People across Middlesbrough South that culture into secondary level. and East Cleveland do not want to settle for second Opportunity North East came about in part because best; they do not want to be at the bottom of league the Secretary of State for Education, my right hon. tables; and they do not want their children to be written Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), off. All branches of Government in the north-east and joined me in Guisborough last spring to meet local here in Whitehall need to support my local secondary headteachers at Prior Pursglove College. He heard directly schools to become “good” or “outstanding”. For as from teaching professionals in our area about the challenges long as I have the honour to represent my home that they face, their concerns and the priorities for constituency, that is a cause I will continue to champion putting things right. As part of the package comes a until we achieve it. very welcome £12 million, to provide more support for newly qualified teachers in the north-east. I really hope 11.20 am that the programme, which seems to target precisely the right issues, will make a huge difference. The Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills (Anne Milton): It is a pleasure to serve under you this morning, Sir Henry. With that in mind, will the reports from the executive board of Opportunity North East be made publicly I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for available, so that we can provide scrutiny, support and Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Mr Clarke) challenge? If successful, will the programme be maintained on securing this debate. I was struck by the account of so that its core elements endure beyond the initial his visit to Freebrough Academy, and he mentioned three years that are earmarked for funding? If it is to Laurence Jackson School. He also mentioned bullying, achieve lasting good, Opportunity North East must not which is a worry and often goes hand in hand with poor be simply a flash in the pan, but must be part of a new discipline and poor educational outcomes in a school and higher baseline of long-term support. I believe that that is generally not succeeding in its primary responsibility, raising education standards in the north-east, and in my which is to get its children to a state where they can constituency specifically, is a generational challenge. learn with sufficient discipline in the class. My hon. Friend I pay huge tribute to Tees Valley Careers, the £3 million broadened the debate to encompass the wider inequalities initiative announced last year by the excellent Mayor of of which the north-east is a victim. He is right about the the Tees Valley,Ben Houchen. It is an excellent programme moral imperative—demography should not have an of careers and enterprise education, which tackles all impact on young people’s destiny. I say frequently that the Gatsby benchmarks for a really inspirational and it should never matter where people are born, who their effective set of principles. The headline feature is that parents are, who they live with or who they know; every young person in the Tees Valley, during their everyone should have a chance to get on in life. seven years in education between ages 11 to 18, will We want to—we have to—change the fortunes of have seven meaningful employer engagement encounters, those living in my hon. Friend’s region. As he said, both internal and external to the learning environment. confidence is critical, and in focusing on educational Every academic year, they will also attend at least one outcomes it can be a difficult balance to recognise 285WH Secondary School Standards: 21 MAY 2019 Secondary School Standards: 286WH East Cleveland East Cleveland where they are poor while also building the confidence communities thrive in their transition from primary to of the area. I am sure that he will have danced around secondary education because, as my hon. Friend the that difficult issue: it is right to call out a school when it Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland is performing badly, but the impact of doing so on the rightly pointed out, there is a stark difference—let us wider community can be devastating. He emphasised hope that does not result in more people wanting to be the poor Ofsted report, and the problem with that is footballers, because not all of them can be. We intend to that the school then might not attract the pupils it commission activities to test robustly the impact of the needs, despite the successful efforts of new leadership most promising approaches to improving that transition. teams.School reputations are won and lost with devastating My hon. Friend is probably aware of a number of other effects, while turnaround can be slow and difficult to regional programmes, but I will not go into detail. achieve. Again, I thank him for his contribution to the debate My hon. Friend mentioned the visit of my right hon. and for raising so well the issues that affect his constituents. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, who is I remember standing in this Chamber, probably eight proud of what he is starting in the north-east. As my years ago, as a Minister with responsibility for public hon. Friend said, Opportunity North East is an investment health. We had a debate on health inequalities in the programme of £24 million over three years, which will north-east, and I cited some of the figures that demonstrate deliver a widely shared ambition across the north-east the appalling health inequalities in the north-east, but I to achieve rapid—“rapid” is important—and sustainable was slated in the press for doing so. I think that the improvement in outcomes for young people. The ONE quote was something like, “Public Health Minister says programme is overseen by Lord Agnew. He will focus that everyone in the north-east smokes too much, has on five clear cross-cutting challenges: raising attainment too much sex,” and whatever. That is a difficult tension: and outcomes for pupils at the end of secondary and first, we have to recognise the problem, to face up to it post-16 education; recruiting and retaining great teachers and to tell the truth; but at the same time, secondly, we for north-east schools, because another problem with a have to put confidence into the community, and the school getting a poor Ofsted report is that the teachers support it needs to change the outcomes for young go elsewhere; increasing progression of pupils to university, people. including top institutions; and supporting young people I also have ministerial responsibility for further education, to secure great jobs. and FE colleges do a fantastic job. Those young people My hon. Friend asked if the report would be made who have not done well at school—for whatever reason, public. I am afraid that I do not have the answer to that, whether disorganised and chaotic backgrounds, a lack but I strongly suggest that he meets Lord Agnew, because of discipline in the schools or any of a variety of he will be impressed with his approach to such issues— reasons—have low aspiration and often minimal social Lord Agnew is a man in a hurry, and will not rest until capital. FE colleges pick those kids up and give them he sees things turn around. their second, third, fourth or fifth chance. I am pleased A key priority for the ONE programme, which I do about that with the apprenticeship programme in particular, not think my hon. Friend mentioned, is to unlock the but a similar move has been made by many more potential of secondary schools in the region. Through employers, who no longer focus on qualifications but the ONE Vision programme, a key part of Opportunity on young people’s skills. They might not have done well North East, 30 secondary schools across 11 local authorities at school, but that is not to say that they do not have will be partnered with high-performing school leaders real skills that, when developed in the workplace, can and given bespoke support to raise standards. The mean a good career and a successful future. I hope that ambition is to support those 30 schools to move towards all such programmes will have an impact. at least an Ofsted “good” rating to improve outcomes, As I said, I urge my hon. Friend the Member for and to help schools sustain that improvement— Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland to meet my sustainability matters. colleague Lord Agnew, the man in a hurry—as he The ONE Vision programme will benefit up to 25,000 rightly should be. The figures are not new, and I urge young people and help them to learn the skills and my hon. Friend to look at the correlation between poor knowledge to unlock their potential. I am pleased to health outcomes and educational attainment. I think report a total of 12 ONE Vision schools in the Tees that he will see that close correlation, which does not valley, with five in Middlesbrough, and Redcar and stop at what qualifications people get and the job they Cleveland. Both Freebrough Academy and Laurence get; it leads into later life. We need to do a great deal, Jackson receive ONE Vision support. Schools have but the Secretary of State is fully behind ensuring that already begun to receive an analysis of need across we make a difference to my hon. Friend’s constituents. I governance, finance, teaching and learning, and leadership thank him for raising this important matter. —leadership is so important in schools. Question put and agreed to. Officials have consulted extensively with Redcar and Cleveland Council and Middlesbrough Football Club 11.29 am on their programmes to help local children from those Sitting suspended. 287WH 21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 288WH

Intimidation in Public Life Simon Hart: My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I will come back to it in a little more detail in a minute. I restress the point I just made: in the end, [SIR GARY STREETER in the Chair] such action is self-defeating, although it might not feel like that at the time. 2.30 pm The accusation quite frequently levelled at us is that, really, we deserve everything that we get as MPs and we SimonHart(CarmarthenWestandSouthPembrokeshire) are quite thick-skinned so we need to grow a pair. (Con): I beg to move, That this House has considered intimidation in public life. Paula Sherriff (Dewsbury) (Lab): I thank the hon. I start by declaring an interest as a member of the Gentleman sincerely for bringing this important debate. Committee on Standards in Public Life, which has A lot of the abuse goes under the radar. I was slightly expressed some views on this topic, to which I will refer. hesitant even to stand up and talk in the debate, because On 12 July 2017 I brought this subject to the House’s it will bring a new torrent of abuse. Somebody left attention. At that stage, most of us had just returned swastikas at my offices on a number of occasions, and from what we thought was an especially toxic and no action was taken, despite the person responsible divisive general election campaign, in which abuse, being found. On occasions, I have received more than intimidation and criminal damage appeared to be 500 abusive messages a week. It is important that we are commonplace. In that debate, colleagues gave numerous not scared to come forward and talk about what is examples of their experiences during that election campaign; happening. no doubt, we will hear a few more today. At the time, we said that they were not just examples of the rough and Simon Hart: The hon. Lady makes a very good point. tumble of a lively general election campaign, which we I have been told by colleagues only in the last few days should encourage and welcome. Death threats, rape that they do not want to draw attention to their plight threats, misogyny, antisemitism, racism, homophobia in this debate for exactly those reasons. At home I have and criminal damage all featured somewhere in colleagues’ a shed full of election boards with swastikas and various recollections after the 2017 campaign. other semi-artistic contributions that people put on them. The hon. Lady and I may be able to stomach that Alberto Costa (South Leicestershire) (Con): I congratulate kind of thing, but it is about the effect on our staff, my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. In families, volunteers and voters. addition to events during the election, my constituency office was very recently vandalised with graffiti, stickers When MPs are accused of being thin-skinned, it and threatening messages. That was concerning for me sometimes strikes me that Parliament would be a terrible because the office is meant to be a secure place that my place if it consisted only of the thick-skinned, because constituents can visit. We must ensure that staff work in with thick skin comes occasionally the temptation to a safe, abuse-free environment. Does my hon. Friend dismiss or be somehow unsympathetic to the causes agree that it is wholly unacceptable in a democracy for that are brought to our attention. I commend thin-skinned some people to resort to violence, aggression, intimidation Members of Parliament. Although none of us will ever and vandalising the property of democratically elected admit to being thin-skinned, there should be no harm in officials? privately admitting it to ourselves. As my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole Simon Hart: I am sure that the Minister will have (Andrew Percy) said, it undermines the fundamentals some thoughts on that, but from my point of view, the of democracy that people who want simply to exercise answer must be yes. It is worth reminding anyone who their democratic right in public by expressing a voting might think that such a course of action has some preference, making a donation that might appear on a purpose, it is generally self-defeating. If we learn anything register or engaging in some other quite modest and at all from such events it is how it stiffens our resolve to discreet way, should not be allowed to do so free from make sure that democracy is not damaged as a consequence prejudice and discrimination. If nothing else, we owe it of the thuggery that we have come to see as a fairly not to Members of Parliament but to all those who regular feature of our lives. make the democratic wheels turn to make them feel that they can do so free of that risk. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I, too, Going back to 2017 when we lasted debated this congratulate my hon. Friend. He is right to refer to the issue, everybody in the room, including the Minister, 2017 election. I spoke in the last debate about what agreed that something must done.The Minister commented: happened in that election; my staff were spat at, and “The Government are determined that no candidate—regardless there were threats and damage to property. Perhaps the of their party, background, race, ethnicity or sexuality—should most sinister thing was damage to the properties of my be forced to tolerate abuse, online or offline, whether it is physical constituents who simply put up a poster in their gardens abuse or the threat of violence or intimidation. It is utterly and windows in support of me as a candidate. It is their unacceptable in our modern democracy, which we believe is an democratic right to do that, but their properties were inclusive and tolerant one, for the incidents of abuse discussed damaged, attacked and vandalised for daring to express today to be allowed to go on unchallenged.”—[Official Report, their democratic will. That is not acceptable in a democracy. 12 July 2017; Vol. 627, c. 168WH.] It happens to all parties—let us not pretend that it That was in July 2017. Are we in a kinder and gentler happens only to one party—so we must all work together place than we were then? Is politics a more refined to ensure that people are free to express who it is they profession? There will be many views on that. We may wish to support in an election, without thinking that expect another electoral event coming down the tracks their garden, windows or property will be damaged. some time in the next few months or years. There could 289WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 290WH be another referendum, God forbid. There could be traitors in this House? Every single Member of Parliament another general election. We may have thought that is a full patriot; we just disagree about where that 2017 was bad, but unless we do something by the next patriotism takes us. Being able to disagree openly,honestly wave of electoral events, this time it could be really bad. and fairly, and to exercise freedom of speech, is a The Government will no doubt explain their position, fundamental aspect of being a Member of Parliament and they have made a lot of progress, but not much has in a free democracy. If that means that the House changed since 2017. If things do not change by the next authorities have to step in to ensure that there is CCTV opportunity that people have to engage in a campaign on Members’ offices, where our staff are often far more of one sort or another, we will have only ourselves to vulnerable than we are, that is what they should do. blame. The reason for that is simple. In the past 12 months alone, reports of threats of this nature have doubled. Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman makes an unarguable The head of UK counter-terrorism policing said that point. It is tragic that those fundamental beliefs are in 152 crimes had been reported by MPs between January jeopardy and that so few people in society are prepared and April this year. That is a 90% increase on the same to tackle intimidation, for fear, ironically, of retribution. period last year. The number of offences reported by There are numerous ways in which we can approach this MPs in 2018 increased by 126% on the previous year. problem, and proper security is one of them. However, I Despite the best of intentions by us all and the regret that constituency offices, from which people could Government and other agencies in 2017, the facts speak previously come and go freely without fear of consequence, for themselves: we are in a worse position than when all have been converted almost into high street banks in this last bubbled to the surface. In the last year we have terms of the security around them, making us more seen Members pilloried as Nazis as they make their way inaccessible and remote than we have ever been, at a to Millbank for media commitments, and journalists time when the opposite should be the case. subjected to precisely the same abuse, to the extent that the media operation, which used to be a regular feature Chris Bryant: The point is not that any of us is down the road in the open spaces between here and intimidated by this behaviour. None of us is going to Millbank, has been driven slowly but surely into the shy away from our full beliefs just because somebody more secure confines of this building. I suspect that that paints something on a door or shouts something at us is not a forward step for democracy. Crown Prosecution in the street or says something stupid on Facebook. We Service guidelines have been rewritten to account for simply want to ensure that our staff and families are the current situation. The Deputy Speaker has had to safe—and, for that matter, that constituents who come write to MPs about security arrangements in their to see us are safe in the exercise of their democratic constituency offices and in their own homes. rights.

Alberto Costa: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Simon Hart: As I said, this behaviour strengthens generosity in giving way. Given that my experience is people’s resolve as much as anything. On the hon. very recent, hon. Members will forgive me if I am not Gentleman’s earlier point, the accusation that is bandied entirely accurate about the current rules. Last year, around that people are traitors is the most ridiculous there was an attempted break-in at my office, and I and absurd accusation that can be made. Whether people asked the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority like it or not, democracy is being played out, in a rather whether it would cover CCTV.It refused to do so. When old-fashioned and very visible way, in exactly the place the same office was vandalised with threatening messages, it should be played out. I asked for guidance from the police and counter-terrorism officers, who both said there should be CCTV.However, IPSA continues to refuse to cover it. What does my hon. Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): Friend think about that? I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing this issue forward for debate, and I acknowledge his consistent Simon Hart: It is a tragedy that we even have to raise work on it over the years. I think we all agree fully with the fact that the taxpayer should be asked to fund what he says, the propositions he puts forward and the security measures of the sort my hon. Friend outlines. context in which he places them. This is not just criminality However, we have a duty to ensure that everyone—not against individuals; even more importantly than that, it just MPs but our staff and families—is protected. It is is a fundamental attack on our democracy. important that IPSA acknowledges that. What is more How does the hon. Gentleman think we should address important is that we crack down on the reasons why this issue? Obviously, there are actions the Government intimidation happens in the first place. It depends which need to take, and we know they are concerned, but in a end of this problem we want to tackle it from. way the issue is wider than that. It is an issue for all the parties and for the House as a whole, not just for the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I apologise for arriving Government. What does he think about the mechanisms a little late, Sir Gary; there is a debate in the main for taking action? One of the things I have considered—I Chamber relating to similar areas of interest. do not know whether he thinks this is a good idea or whether he has an alternative proposal—is that we The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I agree should have a Speaker’s conference on this issue. That with the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Alberto would need the Government’s support. It would bring Costa) about CCTV. My offices were attacked this together the CPS, the police, the political parties— weekend, with “traitor” painted all over them. That word is a common feature of the debate at the moment. Does the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Sir Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Order. Interventions Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) agree that there are no should be brief. 291WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 292WH

Ms Harman: Sorry, Sir Gary.Does the hon. Gentleman attacks, it must be the height of irresponsibility, if not agree that that might be a way to go beyond discussion criminal, for people casually to take to social media and and take action? bandy around such suggestions as if they were some kind of joke. Simon Hart: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Lady for her intervention; I hope she is given a Andrew Percy: The person who attacked Nigel Farage chance to finish off her comments. If she will forgive yesterday tweeted last week that the Prime Minister was me, I will come to some of the recommendations of the a “stupid little witch”. Again, that demonstrates the Committee on Standards in Public Life and how those abuse that women in politics in particular are subjected to. might go some way towards finding solutions.

Vicky Ford (Chelmsford) (Con) rose— Simon Hart: This matter has been looked at by a number of parliamentary Committees. I mentioned the John Howell (Henley) (Con) rose— Committee on Standards in Public Life. It has also been looked at by the Select Committee on Home Affairs. Simon Hart: I am going to press on for two seconds The Select Committee on Digital, Culture, Media and and address the question of the Deputy Speaker’s role Sport has looked at it, but mainly in the context of in this respect, which is relevant to the interventions of online abuse, and the Joint Committee on Human Rights both the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell has touched on it in various capacities. and Peckham (Ms Harman) and the hon. Member for With the next wave of electoral events possibly heading Rhondda (Chris Bryant). our way, what can be done? In answer to the question Some of this clearly has a cost implication. IPSA has from the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell not necessarily been overly helpful with that over the and Peckham, there are the party codes, which started years, although arguably its job is to scrutinise these slowly and have proceeded at a reasonably gentle pace. things with great care. Any colleague who read the Perhaps this is the time to put our foot on the accelerator Deputy Speaker’s comments should be perturbed by the a bit. Whether those codes are joint or individual, fact that, for probably the first time in living memory whether they are visibly enforceable and whether they for everybody here, a Deputy Speaker was obliged to involve parties not currently represented in Westminster take that action at all. He has made it very clear that are matters that may be resolved in the coming days or this issue is as much about the welfare and wellbeing of weeks. However, the idea that the political parties are staff and volunteers as it is about us. free from responsibility is unsustainable. Parties have a responsibility to deal with their members and supporters Vicky Ford: I want to raise the international picture. robustly and visibly, sending a positive message to others Last year, the Inter-Parliamentary Union conducted a who may be tempted to go down that route. study of the impact of the abuse of women parliamentarians I am therefore pleased it was announced today that in 45 European countries. It found that more than eight the Jo Cox Foundation will work with the Committee out of 10 women have suffered psychological violence, on Standards in Public Life and political parties to and nearly half have been threatened with death, rape draw up a common statement of principle on intimidatory or beatings. There is serious evidence that that puts behaviour to encourage cross-party consensus to recognise women off standing for Parliament, thus directly impacting and address this issue. That is the first point. Secondly, our democracy. Does he agree that this is an area in the Committee’s recommendations should be adopted which the UK needs to lead the rest of the world? This as quickly as possible, including the three actions outlined is a problem not only for our democracy but for democracies in the recent “Protecting the Debate: Intimidation, Influence across the world. and Information” report. The first is to develop a new electoral offence of intimidation of candidates and Simon Hart: I agree,as does the Committee on Standards campaigners, which is already a crime. in Public Life, which would go a bit further and mention the negative impact on diversity as a whole, in this Paula Sherriff: I agree that it is important that we Parliament and others. That point is well made, and it reflect on the internal processes we have in this place to has been acknowledged by relevant Committees here. deal with such abuse, but does the hon. Gentleman We will hear from the Minister in due course whether agree that we need to see a much more consistent that will translate into immediate action. approach from our police forces, the CPS and other In the last few days alone, one person has been jailed justice agencies? I have spoken to many colleagues and for life for making a death threat against one of our it appears that currently the police response in particular colleagues, and the hon. Member for Rhondda and is disparate and patchy. numerous others have had their own experiences. A number of other cases are currently live and therefore Simon Hart: The hon. Lady is right. That is on my list sub judice, so we probably should not mention them. of actions. I should say that we have probably all There are quite a lot of ongoing incidents at various witnessed closer engagement and greater recognition of stages of the legal process. Only yesterday, somebody of the dangers of such activity from the police and the the name of Ruth Townsley, who is unknown to me, CPS. My police force has been faultless in its attention casually tweeted about the recent incident involving to detail as far as I am concerned, and I know that the Nigel Farage that she would Met has been doing its best as a central co-ordinator. “prefer acid but milkshakes will do for now”. However, the reality is that, particularly during an I am not here as an apologist for Nigel Farage, but he is intense, short election campaign, some of the issues in as entitled as anybody to be out on the campaign trail. 2017 that might have had an impact on the outcome for Although he may easily be able to deal with milkshake individual colleagues were not addressed in that four or 293WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 294WH five-week period. It was too complicated, they were might be. I leave the last words to the chairman of the crimes that rarely come up and police officers did not Committee on Standards in Public Life, Lord Evans, necessarily have an immediate knowledge of them. who is the former head of the security services and I had one case in the 2015 election where electoral therefore some expert on the corrosive impact of such offences were being committed. I went to the police and behaviour on democracy. He said: was told that it had to be referred to the serious crime “If the decisions MPs make start to be altered as a result of unit in York. I asked how long that would take and was threats and intimidation, that amounts to subversion of the told, “It will take six weeks.” I said, “That’s not a lot of democratic system and would be a dark day for our country.” use to me, because there is an election in two,” so they I agree with him implicitly. said, “Okay, we will book him for a traffic offence, then. That should sort it out.” I think that is what the police did. The hon. Lady makes a good point, and rapid Several hon. Members rose— action is vital. Sir Gary Streeter (in the Chair): Colleagues, four Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. speakers from the Back Benches are catching my eye Gentleman for his contribution. I am ever mindful that and we have about half an hour before the winding-up when we in Northern Ireland take on the job of an MP, speeches begin. we take on the transparency of that job in meeting the general public and what comes with that. Many of us in Northern Ireland, including my hon. Friend the Member 2.57 pm for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) and me, have had Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): It is a pleasure direct threats on our lives because of the stand we take to be here under your chairmanship, Sir Gary. Some of politically on issues, but—this is always at the back of the testimony we have heard from the hon. Member for my mind—public life does not mean signing up your Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon spouses or children to be intimidated or bullied or Hart), whom I congratulate on bringing the debate to threatened or murdered, whatever the case may be. Westminster Hall, and others, has been truly shocking. Does the hon. Gentleman feel we need to raise the level I applaud colleagues who have stood up to this behaviour to zero tolerance? Privacy for our families is important. for their bravery. Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman has more experience The issue I wish to raise is not at all comparable, but in this field than most, and I agree with him. We are it is pervasive and insidious: the bullying, harassment ultimately attempting to avoid a situation where the and intimidation of women MPs, often from within gene pool from which our political representatives is their own parties. It feeds into a culture of contempt for drawn gets smaller and smaller. Whether that is for women that we see online and in other areas of our local authorities, a devolved Parliament or this Parliament, lives. At best, a blind eye is often turned to it. At worst, if we do not address this intimidation soon, for the they are accused of provoking it, somehow, by being reasons he points out, we will attract fewer and fewer there. I have put up with this for my 22 years in people, and arguably the standard we expect of our Parliament and have never spoken about it until now. politicians will go down and down, and the frustration My mind has been changed by seeing some of my of our electorate will go up and up. We therefore must younger sisters going through the same thing. If someone deal with it now. It is not one for the slow burner, like me, who has been here for a long time, does not call because whether we like it or not we could face a very it out, who will? If not now, when? angry electorate within months. I mentioned the Jo Cox Our problem is not in Parliament—I have had sterling Foundation, and I do not need to remind the House support from both male and female colleagues over the why it was created. We do not want to find ourselves in years—but while we have changed the culture of this a position that gets anywhere close to the reason why place and brought in more women, particularly in 1997 that was set up. with that landmark election of 101 women MPs, we did The Government are taking a welcome step in the not sufficiently tackle the culture in our own parties, form of the “Online Harms” White Paper. I do not where there are still people who believe that women do want to get into the detail of the relevance of that; we not belong in the public sphere and, if they are to be are all aware of it, and there is a huge responsibility on there at all, they are there to do as they are told. social media companies to play their part in ensuring That is the problem; I have seen it since I was selected. that democratic engagement can continue without people There were people in my constituency who did not want feeling they are driven off social media or off the a woman MP. They considered the seat the rightful political stage altogether. The White Paper is a welcome property of some favoured son. I have never come step forward, and we hope it will be converted into across a favoured daughter, by the way; it is always legislation sooner rather than later. I heard a rumour—it favoured sons. It started immediately. A man I had must have been inaccurate—the other day that part of never met went on “Election Call” to denounce me. the reason we have not moved faster is down to insufficient Untrue stories were fed to the press and I was labelled a parliamentary time. I do not know whether hon. Members militant, which at least gave my union colleagues a agree, but I think we could possibly squeeze it in somewhere laugh because their nickname for me was “the hammer over the next few weeks. of the Trots”. I was accused of gaining the seat by some We simply cannot allow this thuggish behaviour to carefully unspecified chicanery, despite the fact I won intimidate the democratic rights of our voters, and we on the first ballot and the count was supervised by the cannot allow the culture of fear to deter good people regional director of the party. One semi-literate bully from stepping on to any political stage, whatever it even said that he was thinking of taking legal action; 295WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 296WH

[Helen Jones] almost beyond endurance by the men in her constituency; she has been shouted down at meetings, her campaigning I responded that legal action cannot be taken simply has been sabotaged, and a group would not contribute because someone has more votes than their favoured funds to her general election campaign. candidate. I know of instances where MPs’ relatives have been sacked by the council, under some spurious pretext. Ms Harman: And more brains. Each time one MP meets a certain councillor she is asked, “How’s your auntie?”, because he sacked her. I Helen Jones: However, what did my party do? It know of another MP who held a mobile surgery in a invited these people in and recounted the ballot in front place where there had been very little work done in the of them. You do not treat bullies in that way; if you past, only to have the councillor for the area ring up and keep paying the Danegeld, the Danes keep coming say to her staff, without preamble, “Tell that effing bitch back. to keep out of my ward.” Was anything done to him? After I was elected, I found that council officers had No; no action was taken against him at all. been given an instruction not to bother too much responding to my letters, because I would be a one-term- I have an ex-parliamentary candidate in my area—not only candidate. That instruction could have come from in my constituency—called Nick Bent. He is the outwardly only the leader or deputy leader of the council. Even respectable chief executive officer of a charity called the worse, the officers accepted it, rather than saying it was Tutor Trust and a trustee of the Oasis Academy. He has an improper instruction, which it was. I found that my sent me so many abusive texts and emails that I have a next-door neighbour was frequently invited to council thick file of them. Among his little gems—there are a events in my constituency, but I was not. Each time they lot—were calling me “poisonous and useless” and apologised, and said it was a terrible mistake, but they “not fit to tie my bootlaces”, kept doing it. not that I would want to. He usually says that I am I discovered that there was a little clique in Warrington going to be deselected: of the self-appointed great and good, who decided most “You should step down and make way. There are plenty of things between them—usually with little reference to good candidates. After the election you will almost certainly be the people I represented—and if they were challenged deselected, so it might be the only way to preserve a bit of dignity. they would react. I started doing mobile surgeries and Just some friendly advice.” found that people had been told not to contact me It does not seem very friendly to me, I have to say. about their problem, because I was not any good. Through the years, I realised that there were more This man has not only abused me: he has abused my untrue stories leaked to the press—printed without staff, my family and my constituency chair, who is checking, as in most local newspapers—from our friend, well-respected in the area and has done a lot locally. the senior source. A “wanted: dead or alive” poster with Women councillors in his constituency have been on the my picture on it was put through my door and I receiving end of abusive emails and messages from him. received a number of pretty vile anonymous letters, He reduced a young woman organiser to tears during a which were sent to me and to senior Ministers in the general election. In 2016, I submitted a bullying and Government. harassment complaint; I had been pretty patient for six When I was shadow Minister with responsibility for years. What happened? It was mysteriously lost. I local government finance, a particularly vile poison-pen resubmitted it, but I am still waiting. letter was sent to leaders of local authorities. I am Last week, I learned that a whole cache of emails and grateful for the support I received at the time from my letters, which are stolen data, have been selectively colleagues in the shadow local government team. A leaked to the local press. The leak is selective: they have similar thing was sent to anyone who had the temerity put in the complaints that were made, but not the fact to come and do a fundraiser in my constituency. that they were dismissed. People like this constantly By themselves, these events may seem slight; it is their make complaints about women MPs; they are spurious, cumulative effect that is the problem. They are not but they do it to try to grind them down. There are unique. If we are honest, there seems to be a problem letters that I sent in reply, but not the original with some male councillors who are used to being big correspondence. I do not know who has done this, but I fish in a little pond, and do not like having a woman know why: it is payback, because I have been supporting MP. I know of several council leaders who deal with the constituents trying to defend the last green space in male MPs in their borough, but not the woman. I know north Warrington from development, and because I of one council leader who would not speak to a female have said that the local council was wrong to buy a MP in his borough, even if he were sitting in the station business park through an offshore trust that meant it waiting room with her, waiting to go down to London. avoided paying tax. All these things are clear. They are In fact, I had a council leader who would not speak meant to silence women MPs and to ensure that our to me. Once, when I dragged him to a meeting, he sat in voices are not heard in the public sphere at all. They are his chair tapping on the arm and refusing to engage. I meant to prevent us from speaking, not for ourselves know of one colleague who was shouted at for writing but for our constituents. too many letters, which is known to the rest of us as Why do we carry on doing it? In my view, we do it doing our job on behalf of constituents. I know one because my constituents deserve it—they deserve my colleague who was yelled at because she dared to suggest standing up for them. They have returned me at six that the local MPs might convene a meeting on a general elections, so I think I must be doing something particular local issue; apparently that was a threat to a right. We should never, ever accept this behaviour as councillor. I know of one woman who has been bullied normal, in the same way that we should never accept 297WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 298WH threats of violence as normal. It is part of a continuum The intimidation did not work and there is a very aimed at women MPs. It is time it stopped and it is time good reason why it did not work, apart from my own political parties made sure it is stopped. attitude to it. I do not think that such intimidation should ever work. We all have to stand up and make 3.8 pm sure that our voices are heard. We need to stand up to bullies wherever they come from and make sure that we John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve are true to ourselves and to our own intelligence and under your chairmanship, Sir Gary. I congratulate my logic in assessing such situations. hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on bringing this Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): debate to the Chamber. It is a pleasure to follow the On standing up to people, does the hon. Gentleman hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones), agree that it is important that in the wider discourse we who made some important comments. make it clear that, whatever our views are on somewhat A lot of people have raised the subject of intimidation controversial issues, we can express them clearly, directly in connection with the UK, but I would like to raise it and even vehemently, but there is a line that Members from an international perspective. It is absolutely essential of Parliament, other elected representatives or people that MPs have a role in foreign affairs; it is essential that outside must never cross: violence—the threat of violence, we play that role. I have taken a stand against Russia, the use of violence or the endorsing of violence? If for example, that has not led to any intimidation yet, everybody understands that, we can have a much more but I have also taken a stand in the Israeli-Palestinian measured debate in future. conflict, which has led to intimidation and a series of more than 30 emails threatening me with death. The John Howell: I thank my hon. Friend for that conversations that generated them started with a UK contribution. I agree with every word. The problem is boy, who was clearly pro-Palestinian, asking me what I that not everyone outside understands what that line is. made of the Israeli bombs falling on Palestine. I replied, That is the difficulty. We in this room can understand “What do you make of the Palestinian bombs falling on exactly where that line is, but there are those outside Israel?” For that I was put on a death list and my name who do not understand it, and that is a source of great was not taken off it. When I told the Serjeant at Arms, I regret to me, as I am sure it is for him and for all others was told to queue up with the 180 other MPs who had in this room. received death threats, which goes to the point that my We need to stand up to bullies wherever they are. We hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and need to be true to our own views, however we have come South Pembrokeshire made about our needing to make to them and however different they might be from other sure that our own system here for dealing with such people’s. I certainly was not going to be intimidated by issues takes them seriously and provides a good service the group, and I have not been, regardless of my views, for MPs. ever since. In contrast was the reaction of my own chief constable, who told me that she would give the case to a chief 3.15 pm inspector who normally dealt with these things, and if Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and he saw something there, he would take further action. I Lesmahagow) (SNP): It is a pleasure to serve under said no more about it to my family. I went away, forgot your chairmanship today, Mr Streeter. I thank the hon. it and got on with my work, but at 2 o’clock in the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire morning my house had a panic alarm installed by the (Simon Hart) for securing this debate. His constituency police and I was given a telephone number that I could has a beautiful name. I would definitely like to visit. I ring from my mobile or my home address that would thank him for setting the scene so well and for all his scramble a helicopter from the local base and set in work in this area, in which he has been assiduous. train a response unit from the Thames Valley headquarters I want to start by thinking about where I was at in in Kidlington. If I dialled it now, of course, it would July 2017 when this debate last came to the Chamber take two days for the response unit to reach us, which and about whether things have improved. In many ways would probably be too late, so I suppose there is a small things have got worse. I will mention briefly, because mercy in that. the case is ongoing, Councillor Graeme Campbell in my The death threat was supposed to intimidate me into constituency. Yesterday we heard on the news that his taking a position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, on garage and house had been petrol-bombed, which he which I had actually taken a very even view throughout. believes, and has said in public on the news, was linked It made me want to go out to the region to see what was to a planning case in which he was discharging his happening. I have now been out to the region 10 times duties as a councillor. Our thoughts are definitely with in the past seven years to see for myself what is happening, him and his family. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] We and I have had discussions on both the Israeli and stand with him across parties. We have to make sure Palestinian sides to be able to take the matter forward. that councillors are also protected. The really frightening thing has been mentioned by In my own recent case, a man pleaded guilty to others. I run my office in a large and long constituency sending me abusive messages. He had previously come on the basis that it does not have a physical location. It to my surgery and asked for help. I had tried to help him has a PO box, an email address and a telephone number, by writing to the Government on his behalf, but and that immediately put at risk my staff who work unfortunately they said they could not take his case any there. In fact, it is somebody’s house and it is possible to further, and, following that, I appeared to become a find out from the PO box address where the house is. To target. He has now been given a four-year non-harassment find that my staff were equally threatened was a stage order after quite a lengthy court procedure. Two other too far. cases are ongoing. In one, my office was attacked and in 299WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 300WH

[Dr Lisa Cameron] seemed to be accepted, although I do not know how it could possibly be the case. It was the centenary of the another, I had death threats cut out from newspaper end of the first world war, and was all over the media. words, put together and sent to me. When I worked as a In 2015, way before that incident, the same individuals doctor, I could not have believed this would happen to called me to a meeting to ask me to explain why anyone in public life. It certainly does not in any other someone had said online that I was an agent of Israel form of public life that I am aware of, but it is becoming and was among the norm nowadays in our society in respect of political “shameless British parliamentarians willing to sacrifice freedom discourse and actions towards politicians. of expression to please their paymasters”. I contributed to Lord Bew’s report in 2017. What is The message went on: happening with the recommendations? Some good things “British politics must cleanse itself of this corrosive have been done. The issue of social media has been influence…Zionist corruption which has implanted its roots in taken forward by the Government and by the Minister pretty much every British Parliamentary party.” for Digital and the Creative Industries, who really gets it I was asked to explain that. I was not asked how I or my and gets that it is very difficult. If someone thinks they family felt about it, or whether I was okay and whether are anonymous, it is almost as if they have carte blanche we were coping. I was asked why the individual had said to say and do what they want, and then they are it. Obviously, I have a Jewish family background, which emboldened to abuse, but that work is going well. gives a link to why I was targeted; but I experienced no Some of the recommendations were specifically for support. political parties: I am describing these things not out of pity for “Political parties must...work together to tackle the issue of myself, but because we need to look at democracy and intimidation in public life.” to think about women in politics and people from That recommendation was meant to be taken up ethnic minority and religious minority backgrounds immediately. What has happened? Have political parties who want to come into politics and represent people to worked or come together to discuss the issue? I have not the best of their abilities. We must work together. We heard anything. The report also stated: must come together on a cross-party basis, show leadership, “Political parties should set clear expectations” and ensure that such things are dealt with appropriately about Members’ conduct. and that people coming into politics get support rather than abuse in the future. They should be, “consistently and appropriately disciplined in a timely manner.” 3.23 pm In my experience, that has never been the case. I am on the appeals committee for my own party and have not Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I pay tribute heard a single appeal all year since being elected, so I to the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and am not sure how things are processed, but they certainly Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron). I have travelled with her never get to appeal. How is that being followed up? on a trip about antisemitism and I know some of the There is to be a joint code of conduct for elections. things that she has gone through. It was a brave speech, What has happened to it, and how will it be brought and I hope she will not now be called in to explain that; forward? It must be done quickly. such treatment is unacceptable. I also want to praise my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and With respect to Lord Bew’s report, I notice that South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) for securing the parties provided an overview of their codes of conduct, debate. The most important point, I thought, was that but there was not one for my party. I am not sure MPs are not asking to be treated differently from anyone whether that is because Lord Bew did not contact them, else. It is not a meeting of the national union of MPs. It or whether he did not have a response. I shall be is simply Members of Parliament asking to be treated in following that up with the party, to try to find out. the same way as other professionals in their jobs. In 2017, there were instances when I had to attend I did not come into politics or this House with any meetings as a candidate in the election and I knew I soft view of what the job would involve. I cut my would face verbal abuse, but I did not get a response political teeth in Humberside politics. I was one of two from the party. When someone thinks there is a high Tories on Hull City Council and to be called “Tory risk, and highlights that, they should get support and scum” was fairly usual for me in my 10 years there. We guidance. I attended those meetings with my children at all, to an extent, probably grow a thick skin as a result times, because they were local meetings, with party of such things, and I am not asking for special treatment. members. No advice or support came in 2017, and there However, when I was elected in 2010 I did not expect a is still none in 2019. It is disappointing, and it emboldens situation in which, because of death threats and various individuals to carry on as they have been doing. other incidents, including some public incidents, I would There has been no disciplinary follow-up since I have restraining orders against people, my house would complained. I want to make the point that that emboldens have panic alarms, and court cases would be brought people, and I know it led to other incidents that I against people who had done things to me. The police experienced. Individuals tried to prevent me from attending have generally been very good, but the sole reason for a Remembrance Day service last year, for instance. I the collapse of the case against two people who were was the only MP to have a campaign meeting called at twice involved in incidents against me in the street, in exactly the time when the service was due to take place. Doncaster and Scunthorpe, was the failings of Humberside It was to try to stop me going. When I complained, the police, and I have not yet received a satisfactory response meeting went ahead and those involved said they did on that. Despite their racist and antisemitic abuse, those not know 11 November was Remembrance Day. That two individuals continue to walk around scot-free. 301WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 302WH

I never expected any of that to happen, and we must paid in shekels, wanting to murder Palestinian children, do something to try to address it, within parties but also and all the rest of it. So I decided to leave Twitter, and it more broadly. We need to consider whether the offences was the best thing I ever did for my mental health. The in place are acceptable, to protect not just ourselves as serious point is that with social media we invite this parliamentary candidates but those around us, including stuff into our home. Reading it sitting at home on a our families—my dad has been subjected to threats in Friday or Saturday night, having had something to eat the pub—our staff and, of course, our constituents who and a glass of wine or some beer, it starts to have an want to share their political views. As many colleagues effect. I realised it was affecting me, and I was obsessing have said, the issue is getting worse, not better. It almost over what was being said. I decided to leave Twitter and does not matter what the subject is. I have a few examples social media altogether at that point, and have been of comments I received after speaking in debates. After happier as a result. a Holocaust Memorial Day debate I received the message: The downside of that, of course, relates to the good I “What a piece of utter Scum you are. Keep on lying and living was able to use Twitter for. We have a lot of flooding in a Lie”. my area, and we could use it to get messages out It was not just an email. It was followed up with quickly. I lost that direct contact with some of my telephone calls to both my constituency offices and my constituents. That relates to the point that my hon. Westminster office, saying exactly the same thing: “Tell Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Andrew Percy he’s a piece of scum and he’s perpetuating Pembrokeshire made, that the unintended consequence a lie.” of continued abuse is its potential to distance Members of Parliament from their constituents and the public I had another comment following the appearance of even more. an article. A particularly insidious source of a lot of the abuse is the sites that purport to be news sites and that Brexit is, of course, a particular source of such abuse, are effectively partisan fake news sites. Some have been and one tweet that I received recently contained a very set up to support particular political leaders and people rude word. Following an appearance about Brexit on spend much of their time abusing Members of Parliament “Brexitcast”, one of the first responses I received was: of a particular party. An article went up on one of “Utter, utter cunts the lot of you, even more stupid than a them. I do not read those things, and cannot remember cunt.” which one it was. The immediate response came in, That is the sort of abuse we are receiving, and it is beginning “Double chinned hypocritical tosser”. It went on: happening in both directions on this issue. I do not “Why the problem eating your own words? It’s not like your agree with Nigel Farage about many things, but I do not gormless flabby face can’t fit them.” agree with him being abused. Today, however, Chorlton Brewery tweeted to say that, quite apart from throwing I look in the mirror and see a perfectly proportioned, a milkshake, good looking, handsome young man, but that does seem to be a theme. “Hit them over the head with a brick” instead. That is not acceptable. Whatever we think of Another message came as a result of a campaign people such as Mr Farage, or anybody else in politics, when my local Labour party retweeted something about encouraging people to commit acts of violence, and me. The first message that came in said: hoping to trend on Twitter—that might be the result if “Wow nice to see a fat slop Tory twat voting to”— anybody is watching this—is not acceptable. We must blah, blah, blah. Now, I can look at that and laugh toughen up the law, but the parties have to act as well. about it, but actually it is personal abuse based on We have all failed to deal with some of our own party someone’s personal appearance. members who have been involved in some of this behaviour, and we must get tougher and quicker at addressing that. Helen Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we can laugh, but in a way that is normalising the abuse, 3.30 pm which we should not do? One of my colleagues was Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I called an agent of Mossad, to which I said, “Don’t deny thank the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and it—let them think you’re Mossad,” but we should not South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) for securing this do that. debate, which is ultimately about the nature of our democracy. When disagreement is expressed in a hateful, Andrew Percy: That is absolutely right. While I say I vile manner that is intended to intimidate, it is a threat can laugh at it, and I do so because I will not allow to the very foundations on which democracy is built. those people to get to me, the fact is that that sort of There can be no doubt that the poison, hatred and highly personalised abuse would not be tolerated in any abuse faced by almost every serving elected representative other working environment. It would not have been in the House must give anyone who might be considering tolerated when I was a school teacher. I certainly would entering public life pause for thought. The sad fact is not tolerate it from the pupils, and they would not get it that I genuinely hesitated before participating in this from me. Nor would it be tolerated among other staff debate, since there is a view out there—I do not suggest or professionals. So, yes, we can laugh about it in one it is universal, but it does exist—that serving elected respect, but all that that does is desensitise us to the representatives should not be debating this issue. We stuff. should just suck it up, because that is politics. Social media and fake news websites are of course For some, engaging in politics in an abusive and part of the problem. Some of the fake stuff goes on intimidatory way is the new normal, and if someone Facebook, and social media are a particularly insidious does not like it, they should go and do something else. source. The reason I left Twitter was that after a visit to Sadly, even the value of democracy has become open to Israel I was accused of being an agent of Mossad, being question in some quarters. All hon. Members understand 303WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 304WH

[Patricia Gibson] Disagreement—including robust disagreement—is absolutely fine and the lifeblood of political discourse, that the mere fact of participating in this debate may but when it turns into personal abuse or hate-filled open us up to more abuse being heaped on us, and for rants, it has become something else entirely. Studies that reason my colleague, my hon. and learned Friend have been carried out into abuse in public life and much the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), has been written about it. We know that the police take withdrew her name from those due to speak in the it seriously, but in reality it is not just respect for elected debate. With the exception of Scotland’s First Minister, representatives that has declined; it is respect for the she is the most abused female politician—if not the democratic process itself. most abused politician—in Scottish politics. Somehow—I do not pretend to have the answers—we Much online abuse—perhaps not all—is facilitated need to help the public rediscover and rebuild their by the mere fact of anonymity. Online someone can respect for the political process and those who serve in pour abuse and intimidation on to whoever they decide public life. If we fail to do that—I appreciate that it is a they do not like. They can send abusive Facebook huge task—I fear that more elected representatives will messages and retain their anonymity, or they can hide come to harm in the course of doing their job. Even their identity behind a Twitter handle. If someone’s more than that, I fear that the very essence and value of identity is not revealed, the theory goes that they can democracy will continue to decline in the long term. say whatever they like. They can move on from disagreeing The press also has a part to play. Of course those with the views of an elected representative in a vile and serving in public life should be held accountable, but let hateful manner, and slip easily into threats that are us make that about the arguments, not about tittle-tattle designed to intimidate. They can comment in any way and gossip. they like—after all, elected representatives are fair game, My own fear—I hope I am wrong—is that the Rubicon are they not? has been crossed and there is now a subculture in which If we do not agree with a political party or politician, someone can say what they want, and threaten whoever democracy demands that we take them on through they want if they are standing for public office. Someone argument in a constructive and respectful manner. I does not even need to be elected—just putting oneself have absolutely no time for Nigel Farage, but like many forward for election is enough, apparently, to merit the others, I do not think for one second that what happened most intimidatory behaviour. A culture of abuse and to him yesterday was acceptable. If we cannot challenge intimidation of elected representatives has been carefully our opponents with arguments, respectfully, we have cultivated in some quarters. It has gone unchecked and already lost. I am deeply concerned by the examples of continues to be so. We can pass as many laws as we like, abuse that we have heard about today. Sadly, however, but the culture has to change. Where we are today is the for too many the poison, abuse, and attempts to intimidate culmination of that cultivation, aided and assisted by are what pass for political discourse in some quarters. the apparent courage that anonymous postings on social Where does all this hatred and poisonous bile come media create, and whipped up by some sections of the from? It comes from a variety of sources—we could tabloid press. This issue is bigger than any one individual; probably have an entire debate on that—but there is no it is about the survival of our democratic system. doubt that, as I found out to my cost, it can be stirred up by some sections of the tabloid press. Recently, a 3.38 pm freeze frame photo of me in the Chamber, which lasted Cat Smith (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Lab): I about one second, was published in a way to suggest congratulate the hon. Member for Carmarthen West that I was asleep on the job. I am sure that when the and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing journalist printed that story it seemed like a jolly good this debate. He posed the question of whether the levels wheeze, but as a direct result of that story—it was of intimidation in public life that we all face have got categorically untrue, and if someone had watched the better or worse since the last time we debated this issue. film for another 30 seconds they would have seen it was I reflected that since we last discussed this matter, I took untrue—I encountered, entirely predictably, the most some time away from this place because I had a baby. I horrific abuse, which was designed to intimidate me for was shocked that the abuse that is received not just by having seemed to do something I had not done. Given politicians but by their family members extended even the toxic nature of our politics, that shamefully bad and to a baby who was just a few days old, because somebody dangerous piece of so-called journalism was not worthy on social media decided that it was okay to wish that my of the name. Over time, however, such pieces diminish, baby would die. I felt that was very shocking. I had got denigrate and belittle all elected representatives, and used to the idea that, because I stood for public office corrode the basis of democracy itself. and was a Member of this House, such abuse was No one should be abused and intimidated simply for almost part of the job and sort of expected. I did not, doing their job, yet it is now unusual to come across an however, expect a tiny baby to be on the receiving end of MP who has not received a death threat. Some of my such abuse, so I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing colleagues have suffered the most appalling abuse, as this debate today. I know he will continue to champion have others across the House. We could say that that is this issue until we rid ourselves of this scourge and the because politics has become polarised, toxic and so on, way that political debate has gone in this country. but it is also because we who serve in public life have Intimidation, including death threats, criminal damage, become fair game. Apparently, tolerating intimidation sexism, racism, homophobia and antisemitism, has no and abuse has become part of our job description. place in our democracy, but all those kinds of abuse have It has been said that we in public life have a duty to been raised in our debate. On behalf of the Opposition, I uphold the standards that we wish to see, which is condemn any action that undermines the integrity of correct, and we must also be careful with our language. our electoral process and our wider democratic values. It 305WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 306WH is clear that no Member of the House, and certainly no commitment to making further joint progress. I thank Member taking part in the debate, will be intimidated by the Minister for that. I am sure that Members across the these people; regardless of the abuse scrawled on our House welcome the Jo Cox Foundation agreeing to act offices, written on social media or screamed at us in the as independent support for that cross-party work. street, we will continue to do our job as parliamentarians The Labour party’s rules make it clear that abuse, and stand up for the values that we believe in and that the bullying or intimidation of any kind are considered vast majority of our constituents obviously elect us for. grossly detrimental or prejudicial to the Labour party, Unfortunately, violence against politicians is not and that members engaging in such behaviour can particularly new. In 2010, my right hon. Friend the expect to be subject to our disciplinary procedures. In Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) was stabbed at September 2016, our national executive committee agreed an advice surgery, and the phenomenon was certainly a members’ pledge and a new social media code of brought home for us in 2016 with the tragic murder of conduct to further address concerns about bullying and our friend Jo Cox. In recent days, we have seen the harassment. We are considering ways in which our conviction of a man for a credible plot to murder my existing codes of conduct can be strengthened in response hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie to the committee’s inquiry, and we are reviewing the Cooper). These cases are probably quite prominent in ways in which we use digital media and communications the public mind, but Members who have taken part in to clearly communicate to both existing and new members the debate, and many Members who were too afraid to our party’s rules and expectations about the standard of take part, have experienced many more. behaviour that we expect to be upheld. Candidates are often targeted because of their gender, The Cabinet Office has a key role in ensuring that sexuality or ethnicity, which reflects the wider context sufficient safeguards are in place to protect parliamentary of discrimination that targets individuals on the basis candidates and party campaigners from intimidation. I of their identity. Particularly concerning is the scale of thank the Minister for making moves to ensure that, for abuse experienced by women MPs and the emergence of the very first time, home addresses were not on ballot an organised far-right presence on the streets of British papers for local election candidates this May. I know he cities and across Europe. looked into doing that for candidates in the European parliamentary elections, but unfortunately it was not The exponential growth of social media has caused possible due to the very tight timeframe. This is a good the level of abuse to rise in recent years, with online step in the right direction. I am sorry that it has come to platforms creating unprecedented levels of transparency this, but it is right that local election candidates have the in political discourse but reducing the perceived barrier same protections as those who stand for this House. between the electorate and politicians. The hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) really brought that Andrew Percy: That is all very well and good, but home to us when explaining how he has come off social there are obviously particular problems on the hon. media, which in many ways disadvantages him as a Lady’s side at the moment, which have led to members local politician as he is not able to have direct contact of her party leaving. From her position, which is important with his constituents. There is no easy, single solution to to the debate, will she condemn absolutely—as we all address this problem, and the Opposition welcome the should—people who address rallies at which people call package of recommendations outlined by the Committee for Members to be lynched or hold signs of a decapitated on Standards in Public Life for the Government, social Prime Minister? media companies, political parties, the police, broadcast Cat Smith: The hon. Gentleman is right that and print media, MPs and parliamentary candidates. parliamentarians should expect to be held to a higher Turning to potential cross-party actions, it is worth standard than ordinary party members. That is why I prefixing that with the recognition that many abusers, am planning to follow up with my party the issues particularly anonymous trolls on the internet, may not raised in the debate—particularly those raised by my be members of a political party. This complex issue hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen requires those across public life to work together, and Jones). I am happy to look into cases raised by any the Opposition welcome the cross-party action taking Member who takes part in the debate. place in response to the committee’sinquiry.On 27 March, On the electoral consequences, I look forward to representatives of the Labour party, the Green party, hearing from the Minister about his recent announcement the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National party about barring people from running for office if they attended the second meeting held by the committee, have been found guilty of intimidating or abusive behaviour. during which Labour put forward our initial proposal The Government moved away from their initial proposal for a joint code of conduct, providing a suggested to create a new, specific offence in either the general framework that could be adopted by political parties. criminal law or electoral law, which we and various legal That was one of the committee’s recommendations, and commentators would support. Instead, as set out in the we await feedback from other parties. recent consultation paper, “Protecting the Debate: In response, the committee’s chair, Lord Evans, said: Intimidation, Influence and Information”, the Cabinet “It is clear that political parties have done a great deal of work Office indicated that a conviction for the prescribed internally to address intimidatory behaviour and improve their offence of violence or intimidation committed in the own processes to call out and address unacceptable behaviour context of an election would be treated as a “corrupt where they can. Building on that, there is goodwill and commitment practice” for the purpose of imposing penalties such as from those political parties who attended our meeting on 27 March disqualification from seeking elected office. to make further joint progress.” The Opposition agree that electoral law should deal Although representatives of the Conservative party and with the consequences of this kind of serious misconduct. Plaid Cymru were not able to attend that meeting, we However, it is widely accepted that comprehensive reform are pleased that those parties have confirmed their of electoral law is needed, and that grafting these new 307WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 308WH

[Cat Smith] It was certainly interesting to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy), who provisions on to the existing outdated, inadequate and outlined some of the issues that he has had with fake inconsistent body of law on electoral misconduct would news sites. I think that, also, some of us need to reflect simply compound the problems associated with the law on how we react when things are put online. Do we as its stands; an hon. Member raised the complexity of react immediately? There is a culture of putting out a electoral law and how difficult it is for the police to take quote when actually it might be better to allow proper action during tight election periods. I am sure the investigations to take place. We also need to think about Minister agrees that the very fact that the Government how we upskill people to identify what is fake and what propose to treat intimidation as a form of “corrupt has some credibility to it. practice”underlines the archaic nature of the terminology My hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) used in current electoral law. pointed out that we should not be silenced because we It is a matter of concern that the Government have wish to take a position on an international issue, just for still not responded to the Law Commission’s 2016 joint fear that someone may send abusive mail. interim report, which calls for the introduction of a single legal framework for UK elections. Will the Minister The two speeches that particularly stood out for me inform the House when his Department intends to were those by the hon. Members for Warrington North respond to that important report? The Law Commission (Helen Jones) and for East Kilbride, Strathaven and recommended that all electoral offences, including “undue Lesmahagow (Dr Cameron). Both of them bravely influence”, should be reviewed, redrafted and set out in shared very personal stories of what they have experienced a single set of provisions applying to all elections. just for wanting to stand up and be present. I make it Labour supports that proposal, as simpler and more clear that standing up, getting involved, wanting to be modern provisions would secure greater compliance part of debate and being passionate about the issues among campaigners, the public, the police and prosecution that we believe in is not a provocation; it is what services. Appropriate electoral sanctions for violent, democracy is inherently about. It is right that when threatening and intimidatory conduct in the course of people decide, for reasons of jealousy or whatever else— election activity should be addressed as part of that misogyny is sadly all too common still—that they cannot wider package of reforms. accept a democratic result, they cannot then behave in a manner that goes totally against the spirit of democracy It is important that the police have the resources to and living in a free society. make sure that the law is upheld. Many parliamentarians have told me that investigations have been cut short This debate is a timely review following another because of a lack of police resources; indeed, I have debate that my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen CCTV footage of people vandalising my office, and I West and South Pembrokeshire previously led in this can identify one of them, but the police are not pursuing Chamber almost two years ago, when, sadly, Members it. What actions does the Minister think the Government from both sides of the House also recounted some truly should take to make sure that the police have the appalling abuse that they and their colleagues had been resources to ensure that the law is upheld? subjected to. As my hon. Friend rightly said in a recent article, this is not about “brittle political egos”, but Sir Gary Streeter (in the Chair): I call the Minister to about dealing with crime—dealing with behaviour that respond. He will leave the proposer of the debate one we and society believe should be criminal. minute to have the final word. My hon. Friend’s previous debate came on the same day as our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced 3.49 pm that she had asked the Committee on Standards in Public Life to carry out a review of the intimidation The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Kevin experienced by parliamentary candidates. I shall focus Foster): Thank you, Sir Gary; it is a particular pleasure my remarks on what the Government have been doing to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate my in response to that review to play our part in building a hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and democracy in which every voice can be heard. South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) on securing this important debate and thank him for his work on this Recently, we have witnessed a worrying rise in the issue, particularly as a member of the Committee on levels of violence and abuse in our public life and across Standards and Public Life and the Select Committee on political debate. That risks not only putting voters off Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. I also note the politics but putting talented people from all backgrounds presence of Lord Bew, a former chair of the Committee off wanting to stand for public office. As a couple of on Standards in Public Life, who has played a pivotal hon. Members have said, a thick skin cannot become part in work in this area. the most important prerequisite for taking up a role in public life or standing for election, particularly if we Unsurprisingly, this debate, in which we have heard want the most diverse range of people to be represented about the personal experiences of many Members of in our politics and if we want representatives to be able Parliament, has been very powerful. I welcome the fact to be open about who they are and not feel that they that, although we may disagree on many other issues, have to hide away or keep things in a closet for fear of the main parties—the Government, the Opposition and abuse and intimidation. the Scottish National party—have spoken as one in making it clear that argument, not intimidation, should determine An atmosphere in which threats of violence and what happens in our country and that we cannot allow abuse are normalised also risks lives. We saw the worst our democracy to be undermined by those who wish to manifestation of that when our dear friend and colleague use practices that are actually criminal offences and are Jo Cox was tragically murdered in 2016. She rightly said totally unacceptable in order to skew debate. that we have 309WH Intimidation in Public Life21 MAY 2019 Intimidation in Public Life 310WH

“more in common than that which divides us.”—[Official Report, Andrew Percy: Will my hon. Friend the Minister look 3 June 2015; Vol. 596, c. 675.] again at this matter? It is absolutely right to remove the I was therefore pleased to read the letter and joint addresses of local government candidates, but some statement that have gone out today from the Committee candidates said to me that there was a bit of a political on Standards in Public Life and the Jo Cox Foundation risk in that. The ballot paper just showing the address about the work that they will be looking to do together as, in my case, in the East Riding of Yorkshire could be, to continue her legacy. given that some people have a local address on, a bit of As hon. Members mentioned, we also saw this type a disadvantage. of behaviour more recently, with a neo-Nazi plot to murder the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Kevin Foster: It will obviously be a discussion for Cooper), for which a man was sentenced and imprisoned each candidate as to whether they wish to show an for life just last week. address. Again, it is a debate. I would be happy to hear Those, though, are the headline and most serious any suggestions as to how— cases. As today’s debate has shown, there are too many examples of abuse and intimidation that Members of Andrew Percy: By ward. this place have been subjected to. Freedom of speech is a human right, but it is not an excuse for people to Kevin Foster: It could be by the ward rather than by break the law by threatening or abusing a candidate or the district. It will always be a debate and a decision for campaigner whose views they do not agree with. Let me candidates to make, but this is a step that we have taken. say clearly and with no equivocation that such abuse is The alternative was to be compelled to put one’s home wrong and unacceptable and must be addressed. address on the ballot paper. But of course the Government We must also think beyond this place. The toxicity will be interested to hear further feedback about how extends beyond Westminster to the lives of hard-working we can improve and refine the system. teachers, nurses, doctors, judges and police officers, Wehave also committed to legislating on the introduction who are also too often victims and targets of toxicity, of a new electoral offence of intimidating a candidate intimidation and violence. All those in public life have a or campaigner during the run-up to an election, either responsibility to challenge and report intimidating behaviour in person or online. Under the new measure, people wherever it occurs. We must all seek to uphold the who intimidate candidates or campaigners in the run-up highest standards of conduct and we must set a tone in to an election will be banned from running for public our own discourse that is neither dehumanising nor office for up to five years. To be clear, that will not derogatory. extend the offence as such, but it will give the courts a [SIR GRAHAM BRADY in the Chair] new deterrent to such behaviour in relation to those in In 2017, the Committee on Standards in Public Life the political world. In response to a point made by the considered this issue, as well as the broader implications shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Lancaster and for other candidates for public office and public office Fleetwood (Cat Smith), I should say that this is about holders. I thank the members of the Committee, including being clear that we are not in any special category. The my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and law will apply the same. It is about how the penalty South Pembrokeshire, for their thorough consideration could be applied in relation to the political world. of this topic. The committee subsequently published its We will also legislate to clarify the electoral offence of report, “Intimidation in Public Life”, in December 2017, undue influence of a voter. That offence, which includes and concluded that intimidation in public life presented acts or threats of violence to manipulate someone’s a threat to the very nature of representative democracy vote, will cover intimidation inside and outside the and that electoral law needed to be updated better to polling station. Clarifying the offence in electoral law reflect the challenges that we now face. will enable enforcement agencies to enact sanctions In the Government response to the Committee’s report, more effectively, to protect voters from undue influence. we committed to a series of actions based on the The Government have consulted on our “Internet Committee’s recommendations. In March of this year, Safety Strategy” Green Paper and published a White the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Paper on online harms.In addition, we have held discussions Friend the Member for Norwich North (Chloe Smith), with social media companies and the Electoral Commission issued a written statement updating Parliament on the about how a pop-up social media team for elections work that the Government had done in response to the could provide support for users who report inappropriate report. It may be useful if I briefly update the House on behaviour online. that. Over and above the recommendation in the Committee’s The recommendations of the Committee on Standards report, the Government are considering what further in Public Life included two that fall within the remit of steps are necessary to ensure the safety of parliamentarians the Cabinet Office. I am pleased to say that the and their staff. Crucially, that will apply not only to the recommendation on removing the requirement for local vicinity of the parliamentary estate but to our constituencies government candidates to publish their home address and online. There are already opportunities through the has already been implemented, and the recommended parliamentary liaison and investigation team. This is consultation on the introduction of a new offence in about being clear that we must ensure that arrangements electoral law of intimidating candidates and campaigners are proportionate. As my hon. Friend the Member for has also been completed. I can confirm that we will Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire said, our move to do the same for the elections due to be held in offices should be places where we welcome the majority May of next year for the Greater London Assembly and of those we represent and should not become like a police and crime commissioners. mini fortress. 311WH Intimidation in Public Life 21 MAY 2019 312WH

[Kevin Foster] Debt Collection Letters I hope that I have been able to reassure not only my hon. Friend but other hon. Members present that the 4 pm Government are taking this matter seriously and wish to act on it. Ensuring that we tackle intimidation is Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): I beg to move, about making sure that our democracy is the vibrant That this House has considered the content of debt collection one that we all wish it to be. letters. 3.59 pm It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I have been working with the charity the Simon Hart: I thank colleagues and particularly the Money and Mental Health Policy Institute. I sit on its Minister and the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for advisory board, along with hon. Members from other Lancaster and Fleetwood (Cat Smith), for their parties, including the hon. Members for Plymouth, contributions. Obviously, numerous people are interested Moor View (Johnny Mercer) and for Liverpool, Wavertree in this topic. Perhaps we can look at devising a mechanism (Luciana Berger). It was set up in 2016 by Martin Lewis by which all the disparate views and proposals can be from Money Saving Expert. Money and Mental Health tied together. It has been suggested to me that a Speaker’s has been conducting valuable research into the link Conference would be one way forward, but the Government between financial difficulty and mental ill health, and would need to sanction that. Finally, on the question of leading campaigns to bring about reform where it identifies leadership, party political leadership is absolutely crucial. a problem. Codes of practice are all very well, but they have to be enforced and seen to be enforced, and that is just as The link between debt and mental ill health is striking. applicable to senior Members, such as the shadow People with mental health problems are three times Chancellor of the Exchequer, as it is to anybody else. more likely to be in problem debt as those without mental health problems. Half of adults in problem debt Question put and agreed to. have a mental health problem. Research by Money and Resolved, Mental Health found that in England each year, more That this House has considered intimidation in public life. than 100,000 people in problem debt attempt to take their own life and more than 420,000 people in debt consider suicide. This is an incredibly serious issue. Several factors contribute to that link between financial difficulty and mental ill health, but one important issue—the subject of this debate—is debt collection letters. They are written in a way that can make people feel that there is no way out of their financial problems, sometimes leading to disastrous and fatal consequences. I will give a couple of brief case studies. Paul lives with bipolar. Throughout his life he has suffered from mental ill health, which has been compounded by debt problems. When he was on a high, he would go out on spending sprees funded by loans; during periods of depression, he would struggle to pay his bills and often spend money to make himself feel better—it was a sort of escape from the nightmare and trauma he was going through. Paul said that being hounded by creditors left him feeling trapped and helpless. He tragically made attempts on his own life. Like so many others in debt, Paul received letters from lenders, which are intimidating, often written in complex language and can feature threats of court action right at the top, very prominently. Sometimes people receive such letters from multiple lenders on a daily basis, leaving them feeling trapped in the nightmare engulfing them. Paul says, “the letters that you get from creditors are horrendous. They were like someone standing in front of me with a knife, so I wanted to get rid of them. I’d just put them straight in the bin or burn them…You feel trapped by your debt, and that you can’t get out—that’s what can drive people to feel suicidal”. Thankfully, Paul is now in a much better place with support from his family. I have witnessed people who, when confronted by letters demanding payment, hide away and do not confront the problem, because of the state of their mental health. Sometimes they put letters into cupboards, hoping that 313WH Debt Collection Letters21 MAY 2019 Debt Collection Letters 314WH the problem will go away. Of course, it does not go away If the Minister is tempted to say that he is supportive and in many cases the debt escalates, making the situation of the principle involved here, but it involves a even worse. comprehensive review of the Consumer Credit Act and Jerome Rogers sadly took his own life at the age of the whole thing will take a long time, I do not buy it. 20 after receiving two £65 traffic fines, which escalated There is clearly a case for a review of the primary to £1,000 of debt after the council passed on his debt to legislation, but the wording of the letter, which is out of aggressive bailiffs. Jerome’s mother Tracey believes that date and inappropriate, could be changed quickly through a big factor in his death was a combination of the regulations. There is a real danger that we overcomplicate threatening bailiffs who came to the door and the this. Those regulations could be made in a straightforward intimidating letters he received from lenders. Tracey way quickly, pending a wider review of how we deal says that if the letters had not been so frightening and with these issues. One sensible idea is to refer the matter Jerome had been able to get the right support when he across to the Financial Conduct Authority. The step needed it, he would still be here today. That is one life could be taken immediately to get rid of the inappropriate tragically lost, but there will be many others. and inaccurate prescribed wording, which simply should not be there and makes things more difficult for people.

Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Does the right (Lab): The right hon. Gentleman gave two powerful hon. Gentleman agree that putting the threat of court examples. This is reality. This is life. People are getting action first puts people off reading the rest of the letter? these letters and thinking about committing suicide. What should be first is the fact that help is available for After a decade of austerity, things are not improving. people to get debt advice, and that it does not have to be Does he agree that it is time that the Government gave face to face—advice is available online and on the new guidelines to stop these letters coming through the telephone. There is a wide range of support that was door and threatening people? We need to examine this not there before, which needs to be highlighted. more and I therefore welcome this debate. Norman Lamb: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Norman Lamb: The hon. Gentleman goes to the The guidance we had from organisations before the heart of what I am proposing. I will expand on the debate makes the point that the letters are often lengthy. point he made. People in a state of anxiety and distress will give up Debt collection letters, like the ones received by Paul reading something complex before they reach the helpful and Jerome, often include complex text, which is capitalised advice, which might be right at the end. There needs to and put in bold. The language can be intimidating to be clear information up front about seeking advice. It is someone experiencing mental ill health. The letters in the interest of the creditor to refer people to that often start with threats of court action. They do contain advice straightaway and put it up front, and the advice—the purpose is well meaning in terms of the Government’s prescribed wording could require that, legislative requirements. which is what we are calling for. However, the wording they are required to use is There is also a danger that the Minister might say, inaccurate and out of date. It was devised before free “People nowadays can just google it and get access to debt advice was widely available. Recipients are told to good advice online,” but when people google for debt get help from a solicitor,from their local trading standards advice, the options at the top of the list are for paid-for department or a citizens advice bureau. However, trading advice, which is inappropriate. The information that standards can only help someone when a company’s people need should be in the prescribed wording of the behaviour is illegal, not in an ordinary civil situation. letters that creditors have to send. The Government Therefore, that advice, in wording required by the could do something about that quickly. Government, is inaccurate and should not be there. The Government should stipulate that creditors should The idea that someone in problem debt should be signpost people to sources of support, which is really told in official advice to seek out a solicitor is outdated important, as the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne and frankly ridiculous for many people who would just Fovargue) said. People should be directed to the free assume that going to a solicitor is impossible, due to the specialist debt advice provided by charities such as cost involved. The advice is so out of date because, StepChange and Citizens Advice. Exactly as she said, outrageously, the content of these letters is dictated by that should be at the start of the letter and should take legislation that has not been updated for decades. Lenders precedence over threats of court action. Jerome’s mother are legally obliged to include certain pieces of prescribed Tracey and Paul are backing the “Stop the #DebtThreats” content, as is laid out in the Consumer Credit Act 1974 campaign. and the Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Last week, the Treasury Committee made a welcome Termination Notices) Regulations 1983. intervention in its report “Consumers’ access to financial The Money and Mental Health Policy Institute’s services”, which recommended that the Government “Stop the #DebtThreats” campaign calls on the amend the relevant legislation and reform the content Government to amend the Consumer Credit Act and of debt collection letters. It also recommended that debt the associated regulations, to put a stop to the threatening collection letters contain letters.First, the Government should change the prescribed “a form of words that would be clear and understandable for an content of lenders’ letters, exactly as the hon. Member individual with a low level of literacy”, for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Hugh Gaffney) and that the Government suggested. The Government should make these letters “mandate the inclusion—with equal prominence to the demand more accessible, easier to understand and clearer for for payment—of information within such requests of how an people in problem debt. individual can seek help with their debts.” 315WH Debt Collection Letters21 MAY 2019 Debt Collection Letters 316WH

[Norman Lamb] language used and its intimidating nature. I share his concerns regarding the impact that such letters can have The pressure on the Treasury is mounting and we hope on vulnerable people, as he set out clearly. I understand that there will be a constructive response. We are calling that 6,000 individuals have signed a petition by the on the Government to amend the legislation and regulations Money and Mental Health Policy Institute to call for that govern the content of debt letters. As I said earlier, the prescribed content in debt collection letters to be they should do what is necessary, which they can do updated. quickly by making the wording on the letters more helpful and by getting rid of the inappropriate and If hon. Members will permit me, I will set out the inaccurate wording, and then look to wider reform Government’s overarching objectives for the consumer later. credit market, then get to the core point. The Government’s vision is for a well-functioning and sustainable consumer As I indicated, another way to achieve change in the credit market that can responsibly meet the needs of all longer run would be to delegate the control of debt consumers. Of course, that vision extends to how firms letter content requirements to the Financial Conduct treat consumers when they encounter financial difficulties. Authority. There is an opportunity here, as the FCA That is why we fundamentally reformed the regulation recently completed a statutory review of the Consumer of the consumer credit market by transferring regulatory Credit Act, which acknowledged several concerns about responsibility from the Office of Fair Trading to the the rules on content. The review highlighted the possibility Financial Conduct Authority just over five years ago, of the FCA taking control of and updating the rules. I on 1 April 2014. When that transfer took place, 82 sections will be interested to hear the Minister’s response to that of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 were repealed and suggestion. replaced by FCA rules, but 167 sections could not be Debt collection letters from lenders are just one of easily replicated and remained in the Act, including the many problems that people in financial difficulties face. sections that dictate the prescribed content of debt I also support an initiative that proposes bailiff regulation, collection letters. which has been put together by the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves). Weand other hon. Members The information requirements in the 1974 Act aim to have signed a joint letter to the Minister with responsibility protect consumers by reducing the information asymmetry for bailiffs to call for the behaviour of bailiffs to be between firms and customers. Where there is a requirement regulated. for information to be reproduced using prescribed wording, The behaviour of bailiffs is another key problem for that is intended to highlight important messages on a people in debt, as Jerome Rogers experienced. According consistent basis and to ensure that firms give consumers to Citizens Advice, more than 100,000 people have had the information that they need to make informed decisions, bailiff-related problems in the last 12 months, which is across the wide variety of consumer credit products. an increase of 16% from the previous year. Some 40% The FCA had a statutory duty to review the retained of Citizens Advice clients with issues about bailiffs also sections of the Consumer Credit Act by 1 April 2019. had some sort of health condition, including mental ill Its review considered whether the remaining sections health, but they often faced completely inappropriate could be transferred to FCA rules, as the right hon. behaviour by bailiffs. In its briefing for the debate, Gentleman suggested, without having an adverse impact Citizens Advice highlights a number of highly inappropriate on consumer protection, and whether those sections actions by bailiffs that have come to its attention. remained appropriate for today’s market. On 25 March The argument is that there needs to be a regulator for 2019, the FCA’s final report was laid in Parliament. It is bailiffs, alongside reform to the wording of the letters. a substantial piece of work, as I am sure he knows. I We believe that the Minister can act quickly and I hope welcome the report and the significant and extensive that he will give a constructive response. analysis undertaken by the FCA during the review. 4.15 pm The Government are undertaking a programme of The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): work to review the FCA’s findings and consider whether It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, further reform of the consumer regulatory regime is Sir Graham. I thank the right hon. Member for North needed. Indeed, a few weeks ago, I had an extended Norfolk (Norman Lamb) for raising the important session with officials to discuss the programme of work issue. I read his article in The Times Red Box today and relating to the Consumer Credit Act and better understand I have looked into the matter in some depth. I hope that the breadth and depth of the issues that are manifest in it. I will be able to respond to his core request. I acknowledge the point that the right hon. Member The right hon. Gentleman is committed to helping to for North Norfolk made about, essentially, a quick win improve the lives of those with mental health problems. with respect to the reform of the letter, leading to a In particular, his efforts alongside those of my hon. more substantial and extensive piece of work, and I will Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny examine carefully what he said and take that back with Mercer) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree me, to try to understand what could be possible. As any (Luciana Berger) during the passage of the Financial financial services lawyer will attest, the Consumer Credit Guidance and Claims Act 2018 have ensured that those Act 1974 is a complex and technical beast, and we want in mental health crisis have an alternative access mechanism to ensure that we take an holistic view of it, considering to enter breathing space, which is a policy I will touch it in its entirety so that further complexity is not created on later. and no adverse and unexpected outcomes arise. However, I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns I recognise that changing the wording on a letter would about the content of debt collection letters. I have an not appear to be a significant issue with respect to the example here, and he is right to draw attention to the wider implications. 317WH Debt Collection Letters21 MAY 2019 Debt Collection Letters 318WH

Norman Lamb: I appreciate the Minister’s constructive That does not mean that those most at risk will not response. As an ex-lawyer, I think it is perfectly possible see benefit in the near future. I draw attention to the to address the real mischief here by adapting the letter significant work that has been undertaken to meet the using more constructive and up-to-date wording without Government’s manifesto commitment of implementing undermining the broader objectives of the 1974 Act. a breathing space scheme, which I alluded to earlier. The scheme will give the most vulnerable consumers John Glen: The right hon. Gentleman rightly reiterates 60 days of respite from creditor action, to access debt the challenge, and I take it on. At this point, I should advice and put their finances on a sustainable footing. also mention the reference he made to the work of the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) on bailiffs. Yvonne Fovargue: Can the Minister confirm that the There is absolutely no excuse for aggressive tactics from breathing space would also apply to statutory authorities, enforcement agents, and that is why the Ministry of for example local authorities, which are possibly the Justice has launched a call for evidence, looking at the biggest users of bailiffs? need for an independent regulator. The call closed in February 2019 and the Government will respond in the summer. I am meeting with the relevant Justice Minister John Glen: I will come on to that point in a few just after the recess to press for robust action, so that is moments, but my instinct, as I think the hon. Lady very much on my agenda as well. I recognise the right knows from my visit to the all-party parliamentary hon. Gentleman’s portrayal of how deeply wrong some group on debt and personal finance, is that if the of those behaviours are. breathing space does not contain the maximum amount of public sector debt it will not be meaningful. At this Hugh Gaffney: Sometimes a letter gets passed on to moment, however, I cannot formally confirm how the another debt collection agency and then another, so scheme will work, but I will say a few more things in a pressure is being put on individuals all the time. If I few minutes. remember rightly, each time a letter is passed on more The Government set out the detailed policy for the money is added on. I ask the Minister to have a look at breathing space scheme in a consultation launched in that. October 2018. As part of the scheme, firms will not be able to communicate directly with consumers to request John Glen: The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable repayment of debt. In particular, the consultation paper point, and that is something we need to examine carefully set out the design of an alternative access mechanism when we consider what needs to happen in this area. I for those in mental health crisis. The mechanism would thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. enable those individuals to enter breathing space without Stakeholder views will be essential to inform the having directly accessed debt advice. I feel very strongly Government’s decision making, and I would welcome about the mechanism, as those suffering from a mental the opportunity to meet the right hon. Member for health crisis may find it particularly difficult to engage North Norfolk and any other interested colleagues across with debt advice services in the way that people without the House to better understand how this important mental health challenges do. issue should be addressed as our policy thinking progresses. During my time in office, I have encountered many The consultation closed in January 2019, and the individuals who have been in financially vulnerable Government will shortly publish a response to set out circumstances and I have compassion for the unique their approach to the whole scheme, before laying challenges they face. Indeed, only last week I welcomed regulations to implement breathing space before the to the Treasury some individuals with lived experience end of the year, which is when a comprehensive answer of financial difficulty, to hear in more detail how they to the question asked by the hon. Member for Makerfield had got into those situations. (Yvonne Fovargue) will be provided. I would like to take this opportunity to assure the In conclusion, I share the concerns raised by the right right hon. Member for North Norfolk that reviewing hon. Member for North Norfolk and recognise that, in the mental health aspect of the prescribed content in certain cases, the content of debt collection letters can debt collection letters will be top of my list of priorities increase consumer harm. I hope I have assured him that during this programme of work. The issue requires the issue will be at the top of my list of priorities when continued dialogue to understand what the best outcome considering further reform in the consumer credit regulatory for these vulnerable individuals would be, and how best framework. I take the point about whether the letter to deliver it. Given the letter’s rather terse words referring issue can be expedited separately, and I look forward to to a solicitor, which are really not appropriate and working with the right hon. Gentleman to better understand could have been written a long time ago, I will reflect on the most timely and effective way of remedying the the right hon. Gentleman’s point about the changing problem. I thank him very much for bringing the matter nature of debt advice and about how best it can be to the House. presented. Question put and agreed to. 319WH 21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 320WH

Arthritis and Employment employment. Does my hon. Friend feel it is important that we make sure that people who want to volunteer when they can are able to do so without that fear? 4.26 pm Bill Grant (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Con): I beg Bill Grant: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, to move, and I wholeheartedly agree with her. The modest expenses That this House has considered arthritis and employment. of somebody who makes a special effort to go and volunteer should not affect any other income that individual It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, may have. Sir Graham. In my constituency of Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, I am delighted that my application for a Westminster the second most common reason for awards of personal Hall debate has been successful, as it provides an independence payments was musculoskeletal disease, opportunity to highlight arthritis, a condition with which including osteoarthritis, inflammatory arthritis and chronic we are all familiar. It is estimated that, in its various pain syndrome, which accounted for some 20% of awards forms, it will affect approximately one in five individuals in the constituency. That is similar to the UK average of in the UK by 2050. Arthritis disrupts the body’slocomotor around 21%. Those of us who attended Versus Arthritis’s system, which is the bones, joints and muscles that recent event in Parliament heard about new research, facilitate a person’s movements. There are many types, illustrating that some 43% of people with arthritis and most people will have heard of osteoarthritis and struggled with tasks at home, and some struggled for in rheumatoid arthritis, but there are other forms of excess of two years before sourcing equipment that inflammatory arthritis, and other inflammatory conditions could assist them. such as lupus and polymyalgia rheumatica. Arthritis is a frequently debilitating condition and John Howell (Henley) (Con): It is not just about does not, as some assume, affect only the older generations. struggling at home. About a quarter of people with disabilities who are employed said that they did not get Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I congratulate the right sort of support: their employers had not got the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate on a very advice from Access to Work to try to make their lives important subject. Like many Members, I have constituents easier. Does my hon. Friend think that is something we and family members who are affected by arthritis. Does can tackle? the hon. Gentleman agree that when we consider people with arthritis and employment, and the benefit system Bill Grant: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. as well, it is important to take into account the fact that Access to Work is important, but as I will come to later some days people are able to work and on other occasions in my speech, it is not widely known about. The that is not the case? That needs to be reflected in how we Government and Departments have more to do to treat people with arthritis. promote that scheme and make people aware of it, so that workplaces can be made that bit more acceptable Bill Grant: Those three elements are indeed linked. to individuals with particular disabilities. Flexibility is the key. Employers and managers have to Versus Arthritis’s “Room to Manoeuvre” campaign understand that those suffering from arthritis have good has been set up to improve access to aids and adaptations days and, as I will come on to later, bad days. We need in the home and—I would hope—in the workplace, as to adapt the workplace and be flexible. my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) The symptoms may be identified in very young children has suggested. Apparently, a remarkable 94% of people or occur at any time in a person’s life. More than half of with arthritis said that those aids and adaptations had the 17.8 million people in the UK with arthritis and immensely improved their life. That independence is related conditions experience daily pain. The condition valuable to a person’s overall wellbeing, and reduces the severely impinges on their lifestyle, whether it be their strain on our NHS and local authorities. ability to live independently, to care for family, to work, to travel or to take part in sports and hobbies, all of Hugh Gaffney (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) which, in some instances, may lead to social isolation. I (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing recall at an event trying on a tight-fitting gauntlet with this debate. What Versus Arthritis is doing is fantastic, the purpose of experiencing the restrictions caused by but does he agree that workers are now having to work arthritis of the wrist and hand. I was concerned to note longer, which they cannot do because of arthritis? This how I lost my fine motor skills for even the simplest of is not only about adaptations; there is a financial burden tasks. It must be so frustrating to be faced with such on them. What will this Government do for the people difficulties on a daily basis. who have been forced to work longer for their pension?

Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con): I congratulate my Bill Grant: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that hon. Friend on securing this debate on such an important intervention, and to a degree, I accept his criticism. subject. He speaks about social isolation; many people Consecutive Governments have made pension adjustments who suffer from arthritis have not been able to work for in 1995 and 2011 to reflect the equalisation of the years, such as my constituent Russell, who came to my pension age and people living longer, although I think surgery. One of the things he does is volunteer: he is an we have plateaued in that regard. However, those who ambassador, who goes out and helps other people in his have disabilities and conditions such as arthritis will be community in a really positive way. However, he and impacted that bit more. For those who plan to continue potentially others have found that when they get expenses a career but are impacted in extreme cases by disabilities for helping out, they are charged as if they were in such as arthritis, I agree with the hon. Gentleman. 321WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 322WH

Maybe we need to think about how we can assist those It is certainly of concern that employees may not be people’s allowances more when they have to retire early, aware that assessments under that scheme are free, and before their planned retirement. some people may not even be aware of the qualifying criteria. Although I am not overly well informed, I am The MPs who attended the “Room to Manoeuvre” aware of some of the available support and of the event heard from Maureen, who suffers from rheumatoid employer’s responsibility,as I have signed up to the DWP’s arthritis. She said: Disability Confident scheme. That scheme improves “I use aids at home, they help to keep me independent. However, how employers attract, recruit and, importantly, retain I didn’t realise I could get them through the local authority and disabled workers. I am pleased to note that some 5,000 it’s not clear what to do when you need support. It’s important businesses in the United Kingdom are already on board. that MPs learn about the problems people with arthritis have accessing aids and adaptations, so they can make sure the right I employ a person with osteoarthritis, osteopenia and help is available.” polymyalgia rheumatica. Reasonable adjustments feature in my constituency offices. New chairs were purchased Arthritic conditions can be a drain on medical resources, to ensure appropriate lumbar support, and a document requiring regular medication, blood checks, bone scans, stand for copy typing was subsequently purchased at a and occasional time off work to attend appointments. low cost, for occasions on which stiffness restricts They are often lifelong conditions, and remissions or movement—a stiffness that, when untreated, my staff flare-ups may occur. As was said earlier, we need to be member describes eloquently as flexible in our places of work to host and accommodate “at times, a living rigor”. the issues that affect these individuals. Other staff are observant, supportive, and undertake Being able to work is often seen as beating the challenge heavy weight-bearing tasks; in other words, they are that such a condition presents: a person taking control collaborative and work as a team. That involves permission, of their condition, rather than the condition being in sharing information about the condition, and—as I control of them. It allows that person to have dignity said—teamwork. My staff member also has fantastic and pride in their personal achievements, which I think support from her general practitioner and practice nurses. we would all agree they are entitled to. Versus Arthritis People with arthritis and related conditions can often includes in one of its publications a quote from Dr Carol experience a greater than normal degree of tiredness, Black, the expert adviser to the Government on health stiffness, or the side effects of medication for the condition. and work: Indeed, certain necessary medication such as steroids “The evidence is clear that most people with these disabling may deplete the calcium levels in the body, putting conditions want to work. Indeed, with the right support and people at further risk, in that they may potentially working arrangements, usually with modest adjustments, they develop osteoporosis in addition to their existing condition. can do so and be valued employees” It is also important to note that symptoms will often or continue to be valued employees in a company. fluctuate, with the sufferer having good days and bad days. I understand that even the weather may have an Let us endeavour to ensure that we do not unnecessarily adverse effect on an individual, particularly temperature lose talented and hard-working people from the workforce. changes. The Equality Act 2010 requires an employer to make Arthritis and related conditions are the biggest cause reasonable adjustments to support job applicants and of pain and disability in the United Kingdom, and enable an employee with a disability, or physical or result in over 30 million working days lost per annum. mental health condition, to in effect wholly fulfil the The British Society for Rheumatology highlights the duties of their post. I am aware that the Department for need for multidisciplinary teams, and the considerable Work and Pensions has published guidance on employing cost of rheumatoid arthritis to the UK economy. I am disabled people with health conditions, and the Equality pleased that as part of the work, health and disability and Human Rights Commission has provided, or cited, Green Paper, Ministers have explored ways to improve examples. support for people with conditions such as arthritis, so Additionally,the Government’s Access to Work scheme that they can find and remain in work. affords an opportunity for funding extra assistance, The ministerial foreword stated: bespoke to an individual’s specific needs, to help that “This government is determined to build a country that works person start work, stay in work, or move into self- for everyone. A disability or health condition should not dictate employment. I will refer later in my speech to the work, the path a person is able to take in life—or in the workplace. What health and disability Green Paper that resulted in the should count is a person’s talents and their determination and … announcement of the personal support package, through aspiration to succeed We are bold in our ambition and we must also be bold in action. We must highlight, confront and challenge which people with health conditions including arthritis the attitudes, prejudices and misunderstanding”. will be able to receive employment support that is more tailored to their specific or individual needs. Such funding That message is still relevant today, and I hope this is available to both employees and the self-employed, debate will reinvigorate discussion and capture the wider and may be provided for specialist equipment, support public’s attention. workers, transport needs, or training for colleagues to The work, health and disability Green Paper proposed ensure that they fully understand the needs of their fellow a 10-year plan to remove employment barriers for disabled employee and how best to assist them with their day-to-day people, and the Fit for Work scheme is being reformed workplace activities. There is a maximum amount, which to focus on what people can do, not what they cannot. I is uprated annually.The Government’s “Improving Lives” welcome the fact that the Access to Work scheme is White Paper stated that the Access to Work scheme being expanded to help more disabled people into work. would be “significantly enhanced”; hopefully,the Minister However, at present there appears to be a lack of will provide an update on that point. knowledge about the scheme and it is crucial that the 323WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 324WH

[Bill Grant] Finally, there is a problem that action does not always follow post-assessment recommendations. Will the Government proactively promote that valuable opportunity. Government consider what they can do to address any When Versus Arthritis conducted a survey between negative attitudes on the part of employers or managers, May 2018 and June 2018, it found that of those who whether that be by further legislative provision or some responded, 59% had never even heard of the Access to other means? By sharing and encouraging best practice Work scheme. A proactive promotion of the scheme and putting the right support in place, we can make it would, I am certain, assist the Government in meeting easier for people with arthritis who want to work, their ambitious and commendable aim of having 1 million helping to achieve the Government’s laudable ambition more disabled people in employment by 2027. of getting 1 million disabled people into work. There is a degree of comfort in knowing that since 2013, some 600,000 disabled people have moved into Several hon. Members rose— employment. We must build on that with a sense of urgency. In addition, according to Versus Arthritis, Sir Graham Brady (in the Chair): Order. I have six it has been discovered that many of the people who Members wanting to catch my eye, so I propose a qualify for assistance from the Government’s Access to four-minute time limit on Back-Bench speeches. Work scheme face problems with how it is operated. Administration processes can on occasion be cumbersome, and it may be that the Government could carry out a review to ensure that things are more user-friendly. I am 4.45 pm sure the Minister will take note of that. That is a Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab): It is a pleasure concern with a number of issues with the DWP. to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I One of my constituents felt that the DWP did not congratulate the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and fully comprehend the consequences of her osteoporosis Cumnock (Bill Grant) on securing this debate and on when asking her to attend a course, particularly as she his excellent and informative speech. Several constituents relied on others for transport. I for one appreciate that requested that I attend this debate, but I was particularly the DWP has been increasing its advisers, including its encouraged to be here by Danielle Swinney. Danielle community partners, small employer advisers, disability suffers badly with ankylosing spondylitis, an inflammatory employment advisers and work coaches, as well as form of arthritis that causes the vertebrae in the spine providing training for them. It may be that that needs to to fuse. Despite being in constant crippling pain, Danielle be further enhanced to provide greater awareness among works full-time in a pressurised job as an accountant. some of the DWP’s frontline staff of the various arthritic Danielle told me how her condition affects her. It and associated conditions and to adequately address differs from day to day, but every day she sets her alarm the needs of service users. I do not say that with any for 4 am, two hours before she needs to get up, because intention to be unkind to those staff, because they do a her joints and back are so stiff that she has trouble wonderful job on our behalf on a daily basis. moving first thing in the morning. It takes her an hour to get to work. Once she is there, she works from 8 am Hugh Gaffney: The hon. Gentleman is doing a great until 4.30 pm, and some days even longer. None of that job. We are talking about helping people, but can we not helps with the symptomatic chronic fatigue she experiences, also help health and safety in the workplace by working like so many others with arthritis. Danielle wants to with young workers to prevent arthritis later in life? work, however, and like everyone she needs to work, but she says that some days are so hard that even just to put on her own socks and shoes is a problem. Bill Grant: I am not a medical expert—arthritis may Danielle is just 25 years old. I salute her for her or may not be related to the workplace—but where determination, her professionalism in her work and her issues can be identified, such as repetitive work that frankness in talking about her condition. On her behalf, might affect the musculoskeletal system of an individual, I ask the Minister to ensure that the Government do we can change it. We can automate it without losing the more to make employers aware of the effects of arthritis job, but we need to be conscious of what staff are and to ensure that courageous people such as Danielle, subject to through 10, 20 or maybe 30 years of work. I who puts many of us to shame, can get into and be agree with the hon. Gentleman: if those issues can be supported to remain in work. People with arthritis do identified, they should be removed and we should mitigate not want their condition to keep them out of employment, the risks as best we can. Where possible, we should and we owe it to them to make sure it does not. assist employers in doing so. Spending on the Access to Work scheme has increased 4.47 pm by 8% in recent times, supporting more than 25,000 people. Around £54 billion per annum is spent on benefits to Douglas Ross (Moray) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve support people with disabilities, equating to some 6% of under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I congratulate all Government spending. Nevertheless, I make a plea my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and to the Treasury to consider further increasing the allocation Cumnock (Bill Grant) on securing this debate and on of funding for the scheme and introducing incentives to his outstanding speech, which showed his passion and encourage employers to consider health and wellbeing enthusiasm for this topic. I listened carefully, and I do initiatives to assist those with arthritic conditions. The not think he declared an interest at the start, so the benefits of physiotherapy have been recognised. In Scotland, spring in his step that we see from him every day around the public may self-refer, but that may not be the case Westminster is perfectly natural and his interest in this throughout the whole United Kingdom. debate comes not from any self-interest, but is for his 325WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 326WH constituents, who have rightly raised the issue. It was part of the working community. We can support them good to hear what he has done in his office to accommodate as a Government and as MPs. Today, because of my a member of staff. hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, I want to briefly give some figures from my constituency we have done that. of Moray. Nationally, 63% of people of working age who have arthritis are in work. When we look at the 4.51 pm figures more closely, in Moray, people over 45 with osteo- Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): It arthritis of the hip number 4,757. There are 7,848 people is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. over 45 with osteoarthritis of the knee.There are 653 people I congratulate the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and with rheumatoid arthritis. There are 15,526 people in Cumnock (Bill Grant) on securing the debate, which is Moray with back pain. Had it not been for my hon. of great interest to me, both in a professional capacity Friend’s debate today, I would not have known that as a former employment lawyer, and in a personal such a large number of people within my community capacity as the husband of a fibromyalgia sufferer. I suffer day in, day out with this condition. have seen at first hand the impact that invisible conditions We heard from the hon. Member for North Tyneside such as arthritis and related conditions can have on an (Mary Glindon) about a young person who lives with individual’s daily life. We do not talk about it enough, arthritis. It is testament to them that much of the time because the hardest symptoms for any of us to understand when we see them in our communities, they put on a are those that we cannot see. Symptoms such as fatigue very brave face. They work hard to live with their and pain, which are common in arthritis and related condition while in excruciating pain. This debate has conditions, can be invisible to the outside world but no shown that there is support for them, and we have to do less debilitating for that. all we can to encourage them to take up that offer of support, but we should also realise how many of those Ruth Jones (Newport West) (Lab): As a former we work with day in, day out in our communities suffer physiotherapist, I share my hon. Friend’s interest in this from arthritis. important subject. Anna Lockey, a young woman in my Arthritis and related conditions are the biggest cause constituency, has psoriatic arthritis. She is planning on of pain and disability in the United Kingdom, and going back to work following her maternity leave in account for 28.2 million working days lost each year. September. She is one of many who want to work and Nearly half of all work-related illnesses in Scotland are contribute to the wider economy. Does my hon. Friend related to arthritis and joint pain, so it is a considerable agree that utilising the Access to Work scheme and the issue, both in Scotland and across the United Kingdom, aids and adaptations, which are often inexpensive, can and something that we really need to tackle. be really helpful? I welcome the presence of the Minister, who I am Justin Madders: I thank my hon. Friend for her sure will speak about the Access to Work scheme. It is intervention, and welcome her to this place. She will an excellent scheme that we should promote, but as my clearly have a great deal of professional expertise to hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock bring to bear. I will talk a little about some of the said, we need to promote it because there is not enough barriers that people with such conditions face in getting awareness of its benefits. As he said, between May and back to work. It is an important point, and central to June 2018 Versus Arthritis surveyed 15,082 people with the debate. arthritis and related conditions. Those people live with it, day in, day out, and are acutely aware of the need for In my constituency, it is estimated that more than assistance and support. Yet almost 60%—59%—had 16,000 people live with back pain, and that more than never heard of the scheme, so the people we are trying 4,000 and 8,000 people live with osteoarthritis of the to target are unaware of a scheme that is designed to hip and knee respectively. Versus Arthritis tells us that help them. 17.8 million people live with arthritis or a related condition across the country, about half of whom live with pain Worryingly—I would appreciate the Minister’sresponse every day. That is a staggering number of people coping to this, if he is aware of why it has happened—the with that in their everyday lives. Just because we cannot number of people with arthritis who benefit from the see their pain, it should not be ignored or written off as scheme has fallen each year. part of the ageing process. That can negatively affect the support that they receive. The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work The problem is exacerbated by the fact that many (Justin Tomlinson) indicated dissent. arthritic conditions can fluctuate in severity, leaving people unsure how well they will be able to cope from Douglas Ross: That was from a briefing that I received day to day. That can make it difficult to hold down a ahead of the debate. If the Minister does not believe regular job, but equally it should not be used as cover that to be the case, it would be useful to clarify that on for discrimination. Many people with arthritis want to the record. Certainly the campaign group supporting work if the right support is in place. As has been the debate and briefing MPs says that it has fallen, year touched on, that help is available through the Access to on year, over the last five years. I welcome any update Work scheme. However, there are concerns that the from the Minister on that. scheme is not working as well as it should. I welcome the debate, which is an opportunity for us Not enough people who would benefit from the all to raise awareness of this crippling condition, to scheme are aware of it. We know that 60% of people support those in our communities who live with arthritis, surveyed by Versus Arthritis had never heard of the and to try to get them better services to allow them to Access to Work scheme or were unaware of what kind work. They all want to be part of the community, and of help it could provide, and nearly 70% had never 327WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 328WH

[Justin Madders] conditions, and I hope that more people will have the opportunity to take advantage of what is available, such accessed support through the scheme. Clearly, there is a as grab rails, electric tin openers and lever taps. lot more to be done to promote it. In a debate on We should take some satisfaction from the fact that, disabled people and economic growth last year, my hon. since 2013, 930,000 disabled people have been able to Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova) return to work. It is a noble goal that another 1 million made the point that the scheme is probably one of our people who suffer from disability should return to work best kept secrets. When we hear the figures about the by 2027. As has been mentioned, only 63% of working-age lack of awareness, it is hard to disagree. adults with any kind of condition affecting muscles, With the Government’s own figures showing that tendons, ligaments, bones and joints work, compared Access to Work was approved for only 25,000 people in with 81% of the overall population with no health 2016-17, it is clear just how much room we have to make condition, so the Government must do everything that up. The scheme can provide invaluable practical and they can to continue helping those with such conditions financial support to meet the needs of disabled people, back to work. Given that 17.8 million people suffer but only if it is actually accessed. If the Government are from such conditions, half of whom live with pain every serious about meeting their aim of getting 1 million more day, this subject should concentrate our minds. disabled people into work by 2027, the scheme must be The motivation for helping people back to work is better publicised and actually work for its users. not just about statistics. In fact, it should be a long way A quarter of those who have applied for support from them. Work is ennobling. It can bring independence from the scheme did not receive all the support that was and financial security to someone’s life. It can also lead asked for or that was recommended by their assessor. A to social interaction and a more fulfilling life, creating tenth of respondents reported that they did not receive opportunities to develop skills and so on. Allowing any support at all after applying to the scheme. Has the people, regardless of their background, the opportunity Minister looked at those alarming figures, and has there to work and reap the benefits that work brings should been any kind of research on why that is the case? motivate us to give even more support to those with As we know, the major arthritis charities are calling conditions such as arthritis and help them into work. for the Government to commission research on the We must recognise that there are many different types meaning of “reasonable adjustments”, and for support of arthritis, which affect individuals differently, and to be put in place to help people who challenge employers some are more severe than others. The pain experienced who do not act on Access to Work recommendations. is constant with some forms and less so with others. It is Employers are obliged to make reasonable adjustments, important that the Government continue to recognise but if someone is in work and not in a trade union, who that those differences exist and that we should not try to will help to argue for them? If someone is applying for a apply a one-size-fits-all approach. We should take that job, just how easy is it to introduce that issue at a job variance into account when we design policies to encourage interview? If an employer still refuses to make adjustments, those who suffer from arthritis to come back into work. just how realistic is it to expect people to take their employer to tribunal, especially without support, and Rheumatoid arthritis is one of the forms in which the what comfort do they have that putting their head pain can vary. One day, an individual may be considered above the parapet will not rebound on them? fit to work, but the next day they will struggle to get out of bed. Some will argue that those who suffer from Do not forget that the coalition Government introduced rheumatoid arthritis should work on the days when employment tribunal fees, putting another hurdle in the their pain is relatively lower, but that is unrealistic; way of those who seek justice. I make that point because flare-ups are unexpected and can occur at any moment. having rights is one thing, but being able to enforce The Government must ask themselves why any employer them is another,whether through support in the workplace would hire a worker who cannot guarantee that they are or through access to the tribunal system. Too little fit enough to go to work the next day. The Government protection is given to workplace rights in this country. If need to intervene. we are to change the hire and fire culture, those with disabilities need extra support, and we need to understand I ask the Minister to answer some questions. Will the the real barriers that they face not only to accessing fit for work forms be adjusted to make it easier for support but to enforcing their rights. Without doing people to express the fact that they suffer from flare-ups? that, we will not do them the service that they deserve. What role can GPs and rheumatologists play in giving a correct and detailed medical update about the health of a person? Does the Minister agree that both of those 4.57 pm things would not only give taxpayers greater value for Stephen Kerr (Stirling) (Con): It is a pleasure to serve money but make those who suffer from medical conditions under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I commend my that affect their ability to work feel that they are being hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock encouraged, treated on a more human basis and welcomed (Bill Grant) on introducing the debate, and on his by a Government who are intent on serving their needs? excellent speech. I am grateful to have a few minutes to reflect on this 5.1 pm topic, because I witnessed at first hand, through the life of my late mother-in-law, Joyce Ferguson, what such Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP): I conditions can do, in terms of daily pain, and what an am delighted to participate in this debate; I thank the encumbrance the condition is to people trying to lead hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Bill what we would consider a normal life. I saw the benefit Grant) for securing it. I applaud the work of Versus of the aids and adapters available to people with such Arthritis on behalf of those who live with the condition. 329WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 330WH

Approximately 10 million people in the UK live with connected and keep active. There are real physical, arthritis and other musculoskeletal conditions. Only emotional and mental pressures. I know many people 60% of working-age people with persistent musculoskeletal who work in local shops who are literally crippled with conditions are in work, and those people account for a arthritis. Notably,they include women from the generation fifth of all working days lost through ill health in the whom we have let down by changing their retirement UK. According to the latest figures that I have seen, plans with a sharp rise in pension age—the WASPI approximately 30.6 million working days were lost to women. absence in 2013 because of those and similar conditions. We are pushing people to work with crippling pain There are 44,000 people who live with rheumatoid every day, yet we have nothing in place to make life arthritis in Scotland, and they often suffer considerable easier for them except stronger and stronger drugs. I am pain. ever mindful that many of the people I know who work If we are to halve the disability employment gap, it is with arthritis have said that they cannot take the drugs important to stem the flow of disabled people leaving because they make them fuzzy and unable to concentrate, employment because of discrimination or lack of support. among other side effects. Of course, being in pain also People with arthritis want to work, and the majority makes concentration incredibly difficult. can, so I echo the calls for greater promotion of the Many arthritic conditions fluctuate in severity, as the Access to Work scheme among employers and employees hon. Member for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) pointed out. who could benefit. The task before us is to support People may feel good one day, but bad the next day—or those who live with these conditions into work or even later the same day. People are left unsure how well support sustained employment for them. I urge the they will be able to cope every day. In 2015-16, half a Minister to ensure that the Department for Work and million people had a musculoskeletal disorder that was Pensions system is fully cognisant of the fact that some caused or made worse by work. Sometimes being in people with these conditions simply are not able to work does not make their condition any easier. work. That is our task, and I hope that the Minister will The estimated cost of rheumatoid arthritis to the UK fully echo and endorse those goals today. economy is between £3.8 billion and £4.8 billion. Some We know that the challenges posed by these conditions 33% of people with rheumatoid arthritis stop work are significant, since those who live with them are less within two years from onset of symptoms, and almost likely to be employed than those in good health and are 45% stop within five years. It is very clear that working more likely to retire early. That also has implications for sometimes significantly worsens the pain and the symptoms. the wider economy. The combined direct and indirect It is also clear that arthritis is a large-scale issue that cost to the UK economy of osteoarthritis and rheumatoid needs a large-scale solution. I agree with the arthritis arthritis is estimated to be about £21.6 billion. In addition, charities that more needs to be done. If we expect there is a loss to those who are affected by those people to make their way to work regardless of the conditions when they find that they have to give up their pain, we need to make it easier for them, but that can be work. done only with a co-ordinated approach and response. I echo the comments of other hon. Members that The British Society for Rheumatology has been very those who live with these conditions do not just lose out clear about the steps that need to be taken. The joint financially; they lose a sense of wellbeing, personal work and health unit, collaborating with professional fulfilment and social contact. As well as promoting the bodies, provides a guide for health professionals that Access to Work scheme more widely and robustly to outlines their responsibilities to their patient’s employer, those who can benefit from it and to employers, I urge what the employer is required to provide for their employee, the Minister to consider the DWP’s response, the expertise and other outcomes to allow those who wish to continue that people who present with these conditions require working to do so. The Minister always responds well to and the level of support that they need. I look forward questions that we put to him; if at all possible, I would to his reassurances on those issues. like him to set out how the joint work and health unit will look after employees and address the responsibilities 5.4 pm of employers. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to A diagnosis must not be the death of working life for speak in this debate. I thank the hon. Member for Ayr, those who want to work through it and find a different Carrick and Cumnock (Bill Grant) for setting the scene way of working. This House and the Minister must play so well and for his obvious expertise. their part by helping businesses to understand that small changes can allow staff to continue working in a From January to March 2019, 7.6 million people way that will not adversely affect the business. There are between the ages of 16 and 64—18% of the working-age ways and means in each case, and we must connect population—reported that they had a disability. Some them to help people. 3.9 million of those people were in employment, which represents an increase of 150,000 on the previous year. I support the ideas that the hon. Member for Ayr, The Government have set a target for 4.5 million people Carrick and Cumnock and other hon. Members have with disabilities to be in employment by 2027. Where put forward. I look forward to the Minister’s response, does that leave those people with disabilities who live because I believe that he will give us the answers that we with pain every single day, such as the 17.8 million people want—no pressure at all. in the UK with arthritis and related conditions? 5.7 pm Arthritis can have a huge impact on mental health. It is all very well to look at the physical aspects, but we Angela Crawley (Lanark and Hamilton East) (SNP): also have to look at the anxiety and depression that they It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, can lead to, as well as the limits on the ability to stay Sir Graham. I congratulate the hon. Member for Ayr, 331WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 332WH

[Angela Crawley] and her disability into a positive. She is one of the most empathetic, uplifting and passionate staff members that Carrick and Cumnock (Bill Grant) on securing this I could ask for and has provided an invaluable service to debate, on speaking from personal experience and on so many of my constituents—I am indebted to her. I am advocating for his constituents. He rightly highlighted so grateful. She is one of many people who have a that in many ways, the simple solution for those who massive contribution to make, who want to manage want to remain in work is to broaden awareness of the their condition and who want to remain in the workplace. Access to Work scheme. I reiterate that point, which has I call on the Minister to improve the focus to ensure that been highlighted by all hon. Members today, including today’s figures are drastically improved, and to help the hon. Members for North Tyneside (Mary Glindon), support people with arthritis to work for as long as they for Moray (Douglas Ross), for Ellesmere Port and can and as long as they want to. Neston (Justin Madders), for Stirling (Stephen Kerr) and for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and my hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia 5.12 pm Gibson). Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab): It is a pleasure Many hon. Members have highlighted the fact that to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I thank arthritis is an invisible illness with a profound effect on the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Bill many people’s lives. When people think of arthritis, the Grant) for securing such a vital debate, which has been stereotype is often of someone in their later years, but informed by a number of charities, which work so hard many people are now being diagnosed in their 20s and for the benefit of people with disabilities and those who 30s; the hon. Member for North Tyneside mentioned suffer with arthritis and related conditions. her constituent Danielle, who is 25. As we have heard through the very powerful contributions As well as highlighting the Access to Work scheme, it from the 13 Members present from across the House, is essential to address the fact that there is too often a living with the condition can be debilitating and have a stigma around declaring an illness, especially at a younger negative impact on quality of life. Arthritis and related age. Too many people, especially those who are in conditions are the biggest cause of pain and disability insecure or part-time work, do not declare their health in the UK. As a result, 28.2 million working days are issues or seek workplace adaptations. It is crucial for lost annually. Every year, one in five people—20% of support to be distributed not just to large employers, the UK population—consults a GP about musculoskeletal but to small and medium-sized enterprises. Too many problems. More than half of the 17.8 million people in people in insecure work are afraid to highlight their the UK with arthritis and related conditions live with health condition, but it is essential that they get the pain every single day. My hon. Friend the Member for support that they need. North Tyneside (Mary Glindon) highlighted that with My hon. Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and the stark case of Danielle. Her condition has a huge Arran highlighted the statistics for Scotland. The majority impact on her life, slowly intrudes on everyday life, and of people can and do want to work. As the hon. affects her ability to work, to sustain work and to live Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock highlighted, we independently. want to support people into work. We want to make it Arthritis can also have a huge impact on an individual’s possible, particularly for young people who suffer from mental health, as hon. Members have highlighted. Living arthritis, to remain in work. Many who are diagnosed with a painful condition can lead to depression and will continue to work, and we rely on employers to offer anxiety, as well as placing limits on a person’s ability to the flexibility, understanding and the adaptations that keep active and to stay connected within communities people require. and society. Employers who do not support their staff are breaking We should pay particular attention to the disturbing the law. According to the Equality Act 2010, employers fact that people in the most deprived areas of the UK must make reasonable adjustments.Many people, however, are much more likely to report arthritis or back pain may not tell their employer. Ensuring that disabled than people in equivalent age groups who live in less people can overcome this significant disadvantage relies deprived areas. Some 40% of men and 44% of women on a workplace culture change, and attitudes to disability in the poorest households report chronic pain, compared in the workplace changing. with 24% of men and 30% of women in more affluent The UK Government can play a role, including through households. There is a real social class and inequality the Access to Work programme. I urge the Minister to issue here. promote the scheme more and to enhance the benefits, Versus Arthritis, the charity whose excellent work is both for the employer and for employees, specifically dedicated to changing the lives of people who live with for people with arthritis, fibromyalgia and other long-term arthritis and related conditions, estimates that 10% of conditions. The Government could also undertake work the UK population aged over 45 suffer with osteoarthritis to clarify the meaning of “reasonable adjustments”, so of the hip, 17% suffer with back pain and 18% suffer that it is clear what employers should provide for those with osteoarthritis of the knee. Many Members have who may suffer from such a condition, and consider highlighted the higher prevalence in their constituencies, what steps they can take to ensure that employers which is also the case in mine. comply with the 2010 Act and carry out the This Government’s apparent antipathy and lack of recommendations of the Access to Work scheme. regard for those who suffer with arthritis and related In closing, I thank my senior caseworker, Rhona. She illnesses has been demonstrated in their limited approach is probably one of the hardest working people I know. to the promotion of the Access to Work scheme, which Despite having arthritis, she has turned her experience has been highlighted by Members across the House. 333WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 334WH

The charity Leonard Cheshire has argued that there has 5.19 pm been no significant extension of the programme over the last nine years. The Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work (Justin Tomlinson): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Graham. I pay tribute to all the Justin Tomlinson indicated dissent. speakers—perhaps with the exception of the last one—for their very proactive and constructive speeches on this Mike Amesbury: The Minister shakes his head, but incredibly important subject. It reflects well on the that is from the Government’s own figures. brilliant opening speech given by my hon. Friend the Will the Minister tell the House what plans are in Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Bill Grant), place to help people with musculoskeletal conditions in who demonstrated a real passion, knowledge and interest the workplace? Arthritis sufferers who have applied to in this area, that it was picked up and reflected in each the Government’s Access to Work scheme said they and every speech. People who have listened to the have faced problems with how the scheme operates. In a debate will be encouraged at the great level of interest—it survey of people with arthritis and related conditions is not as if nothing else is happening in Parliament carried out by Versus Arthritis in 2018, 59% had never today. It is brilliant that this issue has captured so much heard of the Access to Work scheme, with many more interest. unaware of what help was available. It is almost the best My hon. Friend was spot on when he quoted Dame kept secret, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Carol Black, who said: Port and Neston (Justin Madders) said. Some 25% of respondents said they did not receive “The evidence is clear that most people with these disabling conditions want to work. Indeed, with the right support and all the support that was asked for, or that had been working arrangements, usually with modest adjustments, they recommended by the Access to Work adviser, with a can do so and be valued employees.” further 10% saying they did not receive any support whatsoever after applying. Will the Minister tell the He made the powerful point that there is a misconception House what the Government are doing to ensure that that this impacts only on older people. In fact, it can recommendations made by the Access to Work scheme affect people throughout their lives. One in six people are enacted? will develop a disability or long-term health condition, and many of them will be of working age. This is a The Equality Act 2010 placed a legal responsibility common challenge and barrier that people need to on employers to provide reasonable adjustments to overcome. I welcome the hon. Member for Newport support people with a disability in the workplace, so West (Ruth Jones)—with her expertise in this area, I am that they would not be disadvantaged. However, the sure that she will be a valuable addition to Parliament. Equality Act does not define what those reasonable adjustments are. As a result, it can be difficult for Despite the previous, pre-written speech, the reality someone with arthritis to know exactly what their employer of the disability stats is that there are now 947,000 more should be doing to help them, especially if they are not disabled people in work in the past five years. We have unionised, as was pointed out. Will the Minister tell the taken disability employment from 44.2% to 51.7%, which House whether the Government plan to undertake work is a record high. For the first time, more disabled people to clarify the meaning of “reasonable adjustments”? are in work than not. However, it is not enough. We are Would he agree to work with Versus Arthritis on that? an ambitious Government, and we set out two years One in eight of the working-age population has a ago our ambition for a further 1 million disabled people musculoskeletal problem, but only 63% of that group to be in work. In those first two years, over 400,000 more are in work, compared with 81% of people with no disabled people are in work. We are ahead of schedule, health condition. What steps are the Government taking but it is still not enough. to close the disability employment gap for people with We will continue to do everything we can to empower arthritis and related illnesses? businesses to have the confidence to tackle the barriers The Government have pledged to see 1 million more and take advantage of the huge amount of talent that is people with disabilities and long-term health conditions all too often overlooked. I do not just preach as a in work by 2027—just 100,000 people per year. Curiously, Minister; I say that as an employer. Before I became an the Office for National Statistics reports that the increased MP, my own business benefited from employing disabled number of disabled people in work has not been matched people and having the confidence to make small changes. by a reduction in the number of disabled people who Actually, I benefited. I have been in a series of stakeholder are out of work. We are now two years into the meetings and events today, and everyone was united in Government’s 10-year strategy for supporting disabled saying we have to ensure it works for everyone. people into work. However, the National Audit Office The majority of today’s speeches focused on Access reports that they have yet to develop a full implementation to Work, and I recognise that it is right to challenge the plan to achieve their goal. scheme. However, we must recognise that 33,800 people Through whatever kaleidoscope of smoke and mirrors were helped last year—up 13%, and a record high. My we look when measuring our employment figures, facts hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) are facts: the disability employment gap remains stubbornly asked whether funding had been increased or decreased at 30% and this Government are failing to get a grip on in this area. We do not record that specifically, but that dismal statistic. I ask the Minister to listen to the people who listed conditions that relate to the arms and concerns raised by all the Members here today and to hands, legs and feet or back and neck—we would commit to addressing and rectifying the unacceptable expect those to be covered predominantly in this area—as existing inequality of support for those who suffer their primary medical condition accounted for about with arthritis. 10% of our spend, which was up 2% on last year. 335WH Arthritis and Employment21 MAY 2019 Arthritis and Employment 336WH

[Justin Tomlinson] technology. It is sometimes about making adjustments to the equipment that people use. Access to Work will I recognise hon. Members’ broad point that more talk to an employer and perhaps suggest changing the people need to benefit from the Access to Work scheme, working hours or recognising that there might be times especially in this area—particularly as technology plays when they will have to limit them. Perhaps they could an increasing part in removing barriers and creating even look at changing people’s roles, which is incredibly opportunities, which I have seen on visits. The hon. important. If someone works for a big employer that Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) has HR and personnel teams, we would expect them as discussed her caseworker and explained how she is a given to get this right. However, 40% of private sector benefiting from small changes that can be replicated jobs are in small and medium-sized businesses. They do right across the board. not necessarily have bad intentions, but they do not The key is improving the awareness of Access to have the confidence or expertise. Through organisations Work. Weare looking at improving awareness in jobcentres, such as the HSE we can do a lot more. so that in the initial conversation we take into account I pay tribute to Versus Arthritis, with which I will everybody’s unique opportunities and challenges, definitely be working very closely. I will be speaking at particularly on health, and that it is ingrained in all our its event in July. It is one of our key stakeholders in the frontline staff that this is an option to help unlock Access to Work scheme, which goes through, line by barriers. That goes right to the core of the principle of line, how we are doing and what improvements we need the joint work and health unit. I had a meeting about to make. The Versus Arthritis report was very proactive that earlier, and we recognise just how important it is. and helpful. We need to work more closely with stakeholders to I was genuinely impressed by how proactive and promote this to their members as something that can be constructive the speeches we have heard were. There is a utilised. Weshould work with GPs and health professionals real cross-party commitment to get this right—it is such to ensure that they are aware of the opportunity. an important issue. Not everybody is looking for a On fit notes, GPs can highlight the fact that there are full-time job or career. I have met young disabled people fluctuating health conditions that can limit the amount for whom simply being able to do one hour is a life-changing of work someone can do. I understand the point that opportunity. Wherever there is a barrier, we as a was made, and we are working with medical professionals Government are absolutely committed to remove it. We to look at what more can be done in that area. We need want businesses to have the confidence to take advantage to look at our health and work providers and ensure of the huge amount of talent that, I am afraid, is all too they include it—it should be embedded in their options. often overlooked. We are heading in the right direction, Through the Disability Confident scheme, we are now but we are ambitious to do more. I thank each and at 12,000 businesses—a record high. We have ambitions every hon. Member for what they are doing to highlight to increase that rapidly and are looking at putting all the opportunities that people can take advantage of. additional requirements on the highest level of Disability Confident. We should perhaps look at signposting from 5.28 pm general benefits. If we have identified people with health Bill Grant: I thank the hon. Members for Strangford conditions through disability benefits, we could perhaps (Jim Shannon), for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin signpost people for additional local support. It is not Madders), for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) something that they must have, but providing such and for North Tyneside (Mary Glindon), and my hon. information could be helpful for people. Friends the Members for Moray (Douglas Ross) and There is one area where I think we can make a real for Stirling (Stephen Kerr), for their valuable contributions difference. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and to the debate. Clearly, hon. Members understand the Neston (Justin Madders) made a really good point: how challenges we face and the need for means to mitigate can we be sure that businesses have an understanding? them. For many,particularly small and medium-sized businesses, I thank the Minister for listening intently and responding this is not necessarily a common occurrence, and they to the concerns that have been raised, and I thank the like to have confidence. There is an opportunity through shadow Minister for his welcome contribution. I also the Health and Safety Executive. It is a pretty good thank the charities that campaign tirelessly for, and given. As part of the Health and Safety Executive, we offer support to, my constituents and people throughout lead internationally on safety. We have just recruited a the United Kingdom who suffer arthritic conditions. I new chief executive, and I made it very clear to her that thank people in science, medicine and the care services the real priority going forward has to be looking at who undertake research and treatment and provide care health. The HSE is brilliant at engaging with businesses packages—in doing so, they greatly assist and support of all sizes as part of those assessments, and they can people to live their lives. Last but not least, I thank the identify areas of improvement within working environments. Commons staff, who worked behind the scenes to enable A one-stop shop can be a portal to signpost additional the debate to take place. I give special thanks to the support, particularly on not letting people slip out of Library staff. work. It is a darn sight harder to get people back into work than it is to keep them in work in the first place. Question put and agreed to. I was very interested to talk to my Access to Work Resolved, team about ways in which we can help. Initially, I That this House has considered arthritis and employment. thought it was perhaps simply about technology. I was looking at some case studies—we cannot give names, 5.29 pm for obvious reasons—and in some cases it is about Sitting adjourned. 17WS Written Statements 21 MAY 2019 Written Statements 18WS

to more than 3,500 allegations. Public Interest Lawyers— Written Statements which closed in 2016 and whose principal, Phil Shiner, was subsequently struck off—repeatedly argued in court Tuesday 21 May 2019 both for an increase in the number of cases that should be investigated and that investigations were taking too DEFENCE long. Between 2014 and 2016, this firm alone notified the MOD of allegations—of unlawful killing or ill- Armed Forces Personnel and Veterans: Legal treatment—by around 1,200 people.Of the manythousands Protections of allegations put to IHAT, only a small proportion merited full investigation and only a handful might lead to a prosecution. There are many cases where the The Secretary of State for Defence (Penny Mordaunt): investigation found evidence that UK service personnel We all owe a huge debt of gratitude to our armed forces, had acted in self-defence, in the defence of others, and who perform exceptional feats in incredibly difficult lawfully. In some cases, allegations appear to have been circumstances to protect this country. We set the highest completely fabricated. standards of personal behaviour and conduct for our In an operational context, I also want to remind the personnel, and rightly hold them to account when they House of the announcement made by the Government fall short of these expectations. Service personnel must in October 2016 that we intend to derogate from the comply with service law (which includes the requirement European convention on human rights before we embark to comply with the criminal law of England and Wales) on significant future military operations, where this is whenever they are on operations, regardless of where appropriate in the precise circumstances of the operation those operations take place. in question. Any derogation would need to be justified This Government are strongly opposed to our service and could only be made from certain articles of the personnel and veterans being subject to repeated convention. In the event of such a derogation, our investigations in connection with historical operations armed forces will continue to operate to the highest many years after the events in question, and want not to standards and be subject to the rule of law. I have repeat the type of situation that has evolved under the instructed my Department to work across Government Iraq Historical Allegations Team (IHAT). Our veterans, on how derogation might apply in the different possible many now elderly and frail, face the considerable trauma circumstances of future conflicts. of being subject to drawn-out investigations—even when In relation to providing improved support, I am ultimately there is no case to answer—and the threat of committed to delivering better compensation for those potential prosecution. This does not serve justice, and injured, or the families of those killed on combat operations, the prospect of vexatious allegations has the potential by bringing forward legislation as soon as parliamentary to limit operational effectiveness. time allows. This would seek to establish a no-fault Toaddress the basic unfairness of repeated investigations scheme that will pay the same level of compensation as many years after the event, I intend to undertake a short a court would award. This will be of considerable public consultation on measures which I believe should benefit to service personnel and their families, who will be taken forward in legislation. One of the measures no longer have to pursue lengthy and stressful claims in this consultation will include is a statutory presumption the court. against prosecution of current or former personnel for alleged offences committed outside the UK in the course I also intend looking again at possible options which of duty more than 10 years previously, and which have would prevent civil claims being brought in respect of been the subject of a previous investigation. This is not historical events overseas. the same as a statute of limitations or amnesty, but it I will keep this House informed as we move forward will mean that prosecutions in such circumstances should with these proposals. not be considered to be in the public interest, except in [HCWS1575] “exceptional circumstances”. Our obligations to veterans who have served in Northern Ireland remain the same as those who served in other theatres. I have agreed with the Northern Ireland Secretary DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT that my Department will provide formal input to any process taken forward by the Northern Ireland Office resulting from the Stormont House agreement. I understand Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council the importance of making sure this process is fair and has the trust of all sides, supporting the commitments of the UK and Irish Governments to the Belfast agreement The Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and and to peace in Northern Ireland. In this spirit, we Sport (Jeremy Wright): The Education, Youth, Culture intend to share our considerable experience of the practical and Sport (EYCS) Council will take place in Brussels difficulties of investigating historical allegations from on 22 and 23 May 2019. The UK’s Deputy Permanent Iraq and Afghanistan and the unintended consequences Representative to the EU, Katrina Williams, will represent that resulted from it, and the impact this has had on the UK for the Youth session on 22 May. Minister of armed forces personnel. Veterans’ voices need to continue State for School Standards Nick Gibb of the Department to be heard and the lessons of IHAT need to be learned. for Education will be representing the UK in the Education IHAT was established with the best of intentions but session. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State was hijacked by unscrupulous lawyers who argued for for the Department of Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, an expansion of our investigative obligations. It spiralled Lord Ashton, will be representing the UK on 23 May from a two-year investigation into around 100 allegations for the Culture and Audiovisual and Sports sessions. 19WS Written Statements 21 MAY 2019 Written Statements 20WS

Youth I will attend the General Affairs Council in Brussels on 21 May 2019 to represent the UK. Until we leave the This session will begin with the adoption of the European Union, we remain committed to fulfilling our Council conclusions on young people and the future of rights and obligations as a full member state and continue to work. Furthermore, the Council will also seek to adopt act in good faith. a resolution on the governance of the EU Youth dialogue. The provisional agenda includes: Also tabled for this session is a policy debate on young Multiannual financial framework 2021-27 people as agents of democracy in the EU. Ministers and the Commission will discuss progress on Other the Multiannual Financial Framework (MFF) negotiations. There will be information from the European The intention is to reach an agreement on the negotiations in Commission in regards to Discover EU and information autumn 2019. from the Portuguese delegation on the World Conference Preparation of the European Council on 20-21 June 2019: of Ministers responsible for Youth 2019 and Youth annotated draft agenda Forum Lisboa (22 and 23 June 2019). The Council will discuss the draft agenda for the June Culture-Audiovisual European Council. The agenda is expected to comprise: the This meeting will begin with the adoption of the adoption of the 2019-24 strategic agenda for the European Union, MFF, climate change, the European semester, and Council conclusions on young creative generations. In the disinformation and elections report prepared by the addition, the meeting will also look to adopt conclusions Romanian presidency in co-operation with the European on co-productions. This shall be followed with a policy Commission and the High Representative of the Union for debate on ‘from tackling disinformation to rebuilding Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. The presidency will also EU citizens’ trust in the media’. provide Ministers with an update on progress in implementing Other previous European Council conclusions. Information will be provided from the Hungarian [HCWS1568] delegation on the nomination of Veszprem for the European Capital of Culture 2023. Moreover,information will also be provided from the Spanish and Portuguese delegation on celebrating the fifth centenary of the first HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE circumnavigation of the world, led by Fernao de Magalhaes and Juan Sebastian Elcano. Sport Learning Disabilities Mortality Review Programme The sport session of EYCS will begin with the adoption of a resolution on EU member states’ representation and coordination for the World Anti-Doping Agency The Minister for Care (Caroline Dinenage): I am (WADA) meeting in Montreal. In addition, there will announcing today the publication of the third annual also be the adoption of the Council Conclusions on report of the Learning Disabilities Mortality Review access to sport for persons with disabilities. Programme (LeDeR). A copy has been deposited in the The session shall then proceed with a policy debate on Libraries of both Houses. increasing the participation of children and young people The LeDeR programme was established in June 2015 in sport in 21st century Europe. to help reduce early deaths and health inequalities for Other people with a learning disability by supporting local There will be information from the EU member areas in England to review the deaths of people with a states’ representatives in the World Anti- Doping Agency learning disability and to ensure that the learning from (WADA) Foundation Board on the meeting with the these reviews lead to improved health and care services. WADA taking place in Montreal on the 14-16th May The programme is led by the University of Bristol and 2019. There will also be information from the Finnish commissioned by the Healthcare Quality Improvement presidency on the work programme of the incoming Partnership (HQIP) on behalf of NHS England. presidency and information from the Danish delegation It finds that the quality of care offered to people with about the Council of Europe Convention on the a learning disability sometimes falls short of the standards manipulation of sports competitions (match fixing) and we expect. The existence of LeDeR programme testifies the ways forward for the EU. to our commitment to ensure that people with learning To conclude, there will be information from the disabilities can access the best possible quality care and Bulgarian, Greek and Romanian delegations on the support. signing of a memorandum of understanding (MoU) Since the second LeDeR report was published in between Bulgaria, Greece, Romania and Serbia to host May 2018 the Government and its system partners either the Euro 2028 championship or the 2030 World have continued to make progress to implement the cup. recommendations in that report. [HCWS1573] To support delivery of the LeDeR programme in 2018-19, NHS England allocated an additional £1.4 million to support EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION local areas to better establish their review programmes and reduce the backlog of reviews. General Affairs Council In November 2018, I wrote to health and social care employers to remind them of their statutory obligations in terms of staff training. Wehave also consulted on introducing mandatory The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Exiting learning disability and autism training to ensure that staff the European Union (Mr Robin Walker): Lord Callanan, across health and social care have the right skills and knowledge Minister of State for Exiting the European Union, has to provide better support and will announce our next steps made the following statement: following analysis of the responses. 21WS Written Statements 21 MAY 2019 Written Statements 22WS

Work also continues on the inclusion of a digital flag in the In November 2018, the Secretary of State for Health records of people with a learning disability and autism to and Social Care made a statement to the House of share information across health and care organisations and Commons following the reporting of the case of Bethany, in the NHS Long-Term Plan we have committed to implementing a young autistic woman who was held in seclusion in this by 2023-24. hospital for too long. NHS England have also today published its “Action from Learning”report, which highlights the considerable Like everyone across the House, I have been moved work underway which will have a positive impact on the by these individual cases and personal stories. I do not safety and quality of care to reduce early deaths and believe this is just about a few individual cases where health inequalities. things went wrong; this is about a system. A system across health, education, social care and criminal justice The third annual LeDeR report covers the period 1 that needs to change. July 2016-31 December 2018, with a particular focus on We know there is good practice out there and excellent deaths in 2018. From 1 July 2016-31 December 2018, examples of staff working incredibly hard and supporting 4,302 “in-scope” deaths were notified to the LeDeR individuals and their families to receive the best possible programme. The majority of these (2,926) were notified care. We need to recognise and widely spread this practice in 2018. In 71 of the cases reviewed, people received so that it becomes the practice of all. However, there is care that fell so far short of expected good practice that variability and unacceptable practice. We must tackle it significantly impacted on their well-being or directly this. contributed to their cause of death. That is why the Secretary of State for Health and Based on the evidence from completed LeDeR reviews, Social Care charged the Care Quality Commission (CQC) the report makes twelve recommendations for the education, with undertaking a section 48 thematic review looking health and care system which include: at the extent to which restrictive practice is being used Support for CCGs to ensure the timely completion of mortality in the NHS. This includes the use of segregation, prolonged reviews seclusion and all forms of restraint: physical, mechanical Support to recognise deteriorating health in people with or chemical. learning disabilities We are adamant that no stone should remain unturned Care co-ordination in identifying problems, poor practice and care which Transition planning for young people falls so far short of what we would expect for our own I am particularly concerned at the evidence the review family. presents of occasional poor practice in doctors giving The CQC is today publishing its interim report of the fact that a person has a learning disability or Down’s this review, copies of which have been placed in the syndrome, as a rationale for a Do Not Attempt Cardio- Library of the House. This report makes difficult reading. Pulmonary Resuscitation (DNACPR) order. To address It provides early findings and recommendations on the this, the NHS medical director has written to senior use of segregation on mental health wards for children doctors and nurses, the British Medical Association and young people and on wards for autistic people and the medical royal colleges to ensure that doctors are and/or those with learning disabilities. reminded that a patient having a learning disability can This is an interim report and as the CQC themselves never be an acceptable reason for a DNACPR and that describe there is much work that remains to be done in they must avoid this form of discrimination. People the rest of the review. However, the Government accept with a learning disability have the same right to enjoy a these recommendations in full and are committed to meaningful life as anyone. working with partners across the health, education and While the increase in the number of reviews carried care system to ensure that they are implemented. out is welcome, we acknowledge that the pace with It is absolutely essential that we take all necessary which reviews are conducted needs to increase. I am actions to learn from the issues raised in this interim pleased that NHS England have today announced a report: further £5 million to speed up reviews to ensure that We will ensure each and every case of seclusion and long they are carried out as quickly and as thoroughly as term segregation is thoroughly scrutinised and that every possible. element of their care has been reviewed. We are clear that It is essential that we take all necessary actions to every possible step must be taken to ensure people get the learn from the issues raised in the LeDeR report. We care, support and treatment they need. We will ensure that will consider the report and its recommendations in the they have access to specialist independent advocacy to support them and their families. coming weeks and consider the recommendations in due course. The model of care for autistic people and those with learning disabilities must be fit for purpose—we will convene [HCWS1571] an expert group for learning disabilities and autism, bringing together leading experts, including those from other countries, clinicians, academics, parents and carers and others, to CQC: Review of Restrictive Practices, Seclusion and develop a new care model taking the very best practice as the foundation. Segregation We will strengthen safeguards, addressing the lack of join up across the reviews of care that people receive and working the Care Quality Commission to bolster the oversight The Minister for Care (Caroline Dinenage): The arrangements for hospitals that use segregation. Government have made improving the care and treatment We will empower specialist advocates to raise concerns of autistic people and people with a learning disability a when they know something is not right. We will also develop priority. Society is rightly judged on the way it treats its a new awareness raising campaign, to encourage staff, families most vulnerable citizens. and friends to come forward if they have concerns about care. 23WS Written Statements 21 MAY 2019 Written Statements 24WS

Hon. Members will be aware of the recent allegations We will continue to bring down inpatient numbers. of abuse at Whorlton Hall, into which Durham We will take every step to take hold of the very best Constabulary are now leading a criminal investigation. practice going on across the health and care system and These allegations of abuse have been treated with the make that the norm everywhere. There is no room for utmost seriousness. Steps have been taken to ensure the complacency. safety of residents at Whorlton Hall. [HCWS1569] Where people—staff, family and friends—have concerns about any service they must raise them. We will ensure that we continue to make progress NHS Accountability Framework across the board on fostering a just and open culture around safety and raising concerns in the NHS. We need to improve the quality of concerns handling The Minister for Health (Stephen Hammond): I will and ensure that this is true for every patient. Working today lay before Parliament the Government’s 2019-20 with the Health Ombudsman we will deliver a single accountability framework with NHS England and NHS vision for improving how the NHS responds when Improvement. For the first time, this combines the concerns or complaints are raised, whether concerns Government’s annual statutory mandate to NHS England are raised by patients, families, advocates or staff. with the annual remit set for NHS Improvement. The National Guardian and the local network of NHS England oversees the commissioning of health Freedom to Speak Up Guardians are playing a crucial services in England and NHS Improvement oversees role across the country in providing safe avenues for and holds to account NHS foundation trusts, NHS staff to raise concerns within their own organisations. trusts, and independent providers of NHS-funded care. We will make it even easier for people to raise concerns Working together they will play a vital role in leading about patient safety in the NHS by introducing a new the NHS as it takes forward its long term plan, which digital reporting system. has been created in partnership with doctors, nurses, Where it is essential that someone is supported at other clinicians and builds on the views and insights of distance from home, we will make sure that those patients and the public. They have come together under arrangements are adequately supervised. We cannot a joint senior leadership team to do this effectively and have people out of sight and out of mind. That is why the Government are supporting them with a funding we are introducing stronger oversight arrangements. settlement that will see the NHS’s annual budget increase Where someone with a learning disability or an autistic by £33.9 billion by 2023-24, the largest cash settlement person is an inpatient out of area they will visited every in the history of the NHS. six weeks if they are a child and every eight weeks if This is an important year for the NHS as it transitions they are an adult, on site. The host Clinical Commissioning into full implementation of the NHS long term plan Group will also be given new responsibilities to oversee while at the same time ensuring that every patient in and monitor the quality of care. England will continue to receive vital services as the But we must be clear: improving the quality of specialist country leaves the EU. To put it beyond doubt that inpatient care is critical. But we are committed to these are the most important things that the NHS has to stopping people from going into crisis and being admitted deliver this year, the accountability framework sets NHS into specialist inpatient care in the first place. England and NHS Improvement two objectives for For example, we know that autistic children often 2019-20: to ensure the effective delivery of the long have a range of needs. They require support from term plan, and to support the Government in managing education, health and social care. We must strengthen the effects of EU Exit on health and care. this join up. That is why we are reviewing our autism The framework clearly demonstrates the Government’s strategy and will be extending it to include children. commitment to NHS staff, to the public, to patients and We must ensure autistic children get the right support to taxpayers, that the long term plan will be delivered they need—at the right time—and as close to home as and that the safety and quality of NHS services will be possible. By making our strategy all age we will look at safeguarded through a period of change. As required by how earlier intervention can stop escalating needs. the Act, NHS England and Healthwatch England have been consulted on the objectives set in it, along with We know that autistic children and those with learning NHS Improvement. disabilities and their families can face difficulties when transitioning from child to adult services. Wewill continue NHS England and NHS Improvement are co-ordinating to improve community services to support people a system-wide process of implementation planning, at appropriately from childhood into adulthood. both local and national level. This will culminate in a As part of the implementation of the NHS’s Long national implementation programme for the long term Term Plan there will be concerted effort in implementing plan to 2023-24, and an NHS workforce implementation arrangements to ensure that those at the highest risk of plan, by the end of 2019. My intention is then to set a admission to a specialist hospital or other institutional further accountability framework from 2020-21 to 2023-24 setting are getting the help they need. We will ensure taking account of these, the outcome of our spending that every area has such ‘dynamic support registers’ in review, the needs of patients and the public, and the place. views of Government. We think all staff in every setting should have improved As in previous years, I will also today re-lay the awareness of learning disability and autism. That is mandate for 2018-19. This is to take account of in-year why, in the coming months, we will be setting out our revisions to NHS England’s budget for 2018-19. There response to our consultation on proposals to introduce are no other changes. mandatory training for all health and care staff. [HCWS1570] 25WS Written Statements 21 MAY 2019 Written Statements 26WS

HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL JUSTICE GOVERNMENT Family Courts: Child Arrangements Cases

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Paul Maynard): I wish to announce to the House the Grenfell Tower Site establishment of an expert panel to gather evidence on outcomes for children and parent victims in contact cases and other private law children proceedings, in particular any harm caused during or following such proceedings, where there are allegations and/or other The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and evidence of domestic abuse or other crimes relevant to Local Government (James Brokenshire): Today I will lay such a risk of harm. before Parliament a departmental minute to advise that the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local The Government take these matters extremely seriously Government (MHCLG) has received approval from and want to understand the full range of available Her Majesty’sTreasury for a contingent liability associated evidence on this issue. with the Government taking ownership of the Grenfell The panel will gather evidence on the operation of Tower site. Practice Direction 12J in the family courts, which sets out what the court should do in child arrangements The Government have always been committed to cases where there are allegations, admissions, or evidence working with the community to create a fitting memorial, that domestic abuse has happened, or evidence of a risk with the Prime Minister giving her personal commitment that it could happen, to the child or another party. The that the bereaved, survivors and community will decide panel will also consider the operation of this practice what happens to the long term future of the Grenfell direction with the risk of harm exception to the presumption Tower site. of parental involvement. The panel will also gather evidence of effects on I made a commitment in August 2018 that the children and parents/guardians in proceedings in which Government would take responsibility for the Grenfell a parent or other person seeking contact or residence Tower site until the community has determined the long arrangements is alleged to have or has committed domestic term future of the site. As part of this process, the abuse or other offences relevant to a risk of harm to a Government have also committed to transferring the child or parent/guardian. Such other offences may include, land to the bereaved and survivors if that is their wish, but are not limited to, abuse of a child, assaults, sexual once an appropriate body has been established. assault, murder or other violent crime. The departmental minute describes the contingent The Government are also aware of the potential for liability that MHCLG will hold as a result of the multiple and repeat court applications to coerce and Government owning the site. frustrate victim parents. Therefore, lastly the panel will also gather evidence on the handling of repeat applications The unquantifiable contingent liability will remain within the family justice system and the use of barring for the duration of the Government’s ownership of the orders under section 91 (14) of the Children Act 1989. site. The Government will own the site until the community The membership of the panel will be drawn from has determined the long term future use,and an appropriate academia, third sector organisations, the judiciary and body has been established, which I am advised could officials from the Ministry of Justice. I will ask the take up to five years. panel to conduct a Call for Evidence and report within If the liability is called against MHCLG, provision three months of its establishment. This will enable the for any payment will be sought through the normal Government to take, as a matter of urgency,evidence-based supply procedure. decisions about whether and what changes are necessary to current protections. [HCWS1574] [HCWS1572]

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 21 May 2019

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 593 TREASURY—continued Business Rates Relief: Music Venues ...... 606 Loan Charge ...... 593 Child Poverty ...... 600 Local Authority Budgets...... 597 Climate Change ...... 603 NHS Pension Scheme ...... 598 Fuel Duty Freeze ...... 605 Supporting the High Street ...... 602 Income Tax ...... 608 Topical Questions ...... 609 Leaving the EU: Scotland ...... 607 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 21 May 2019

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 17WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE—continued Armed Forces Personnel and Veterans: Legal Learning Disabilities Mortality Review Protections...... 17WS Programme ...... 20WS NHS Accountability Framework ...... 24WS DIGITAL, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 18WS Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council ...... 18WS HOUSING, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL EXITING THE EUROPEAN UNION...... 19WS GOVERNMENT...... 25WS General Affairs Council ...... 19WS Grenfell Tower Site ...... 25WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 20WS CQC: Review of Restrictive Practices, Seclusion JUSTICE...... 26WS and Segregation ...... 21WS Family Courts: Child Arrangements Cases ...... 26WS No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 28 May 2019

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 660 Tuesday No. 304 21 May 2019

CONTENTS

Tuesday 21 May 2019

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 593] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

British Steel [Col. 617] Answer to urgent question—(Andrew Stephenson)

Pregnancy and Maternity (Redundancy Protection) [Col. 631] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Mrs Miller)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Buildings (Restoration and Renewal) Bill [Col. 635] Motion for Second Reading—(Andrea Leadsom)—agreed to Read a Second time Programme motion—(Mr Jack)—agreed to

Christmas Island Nuclear Testing: Compensation [Col. 698] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Financial Exclusion: Access to Cash [Col. 253WH] Secondary School Standards: East Cleveland [Col. 279WH] Intimidation in Public Life [Col. 287WH] Debt Collection Letters [Col. 312WH] Arthritis and Employment [Col. 319WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 17WS]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]