Appendix 1

Mayor’s Question Time – Thursday 18 June 2020

Transcript of Item 4 – Oral update to the Mayor’s Report

Sadiq Khan (): Good morning, Chair. Good morning, Assembly Members. COVID-19 is the biggest challenge our city has faced since the Second World War and we are continuing to do all that we can from City Hall to prevent a catastrophic second wave of this deadly disease.

One of the huge consequences is the devastating impact this had on London’s public finances, which were in good shape before the pandemic hit. Transport for London’s (TfL) income from fares has dropped by more than 90% and income from local business rates and council tax has fallen off the cliff. That is why I warned yesterday that we will be left with no choice but to make significant cuts across the Mayoral bodies unless the Government urgently acts to support local and regional authorities across the country. I would urge all Assembly Members to join me and the many mayors and local authority leaders from across the political divide who are putting pressure on the Government to do the right thing.

Whatever happens, I will do what I can to protect front line services as much as possible, and it is only right that I should volunteer for an immediate pay cut and continue to not take any pension contributions in these extremely difficult circumstances. New budget guidance will be published shortly and I will keep the and all Londoners up to date as this develops.

I know millions of Londoners were horrified by the shameful scenes of violence and racism from members of the far-right over the weekend. Our police officers did a fantastic job controlling demonstrators and preventing the situation from escalating any further. I want to place on record on behalf of all Londoners my thanks and gratitude to our policemen and policewomen. More than 85 officers have been injured in the course of their duties over the last few weeks. Such violence will never be tolerated, and anyone who attacks our police or engages in acts of vandalism will always feel the full force of the law.

I also, Chair, want to take this opportunity to reiterate my support for the Black Lives Matter movement. I am proud to stand with millions of people around the world raising their voices and saying loud and clear that we must end the racism and institutional discrimination that sadly still exists in our society. Can I just be clear on one thing: we must not allow any kind of equivalence to be drawn between the members of the far-right who came to our city for the sole purpose of sowing division and hatred and the supporters of Black Lives Matter, antiracists, the vast majority of whom have protested peacefully and have been excellent ambassadors for such a vital cause.

I welcome the promise from the Prime Minister that the Government will look at discrimination in our public institutions, but the truth is we already know what is needed from the many

Government reviews that have really been done. We do not need more delay. The time for action is now. Thank you, Chair.

I have also been asked for two oral updates and with your permission I will go to them straight away. The first one is from Assembly Member [Andrew] Boff, who has asked about the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm.

I asked my Deputy Mayor for Culture and Creative Industries, Justine Simons OBE, and Deputy Mayor for Social Integration, Social Mobility and Community Engagement, Dr Debbie Weekes-Bernard, to urgently bring together arts, community and council leaders across the capital to create the Commission for Diversity in the Public Realm. The Commission will consider how we improve diversity across our public realm and how we tell a more accurate story of our city. The aim is to work in partnership with boroughs and communities to ensure our street names, squares and statues properly reflect our city’s achievements and diversity. Terms of reference for the Commission are being drafted and developed in consultation with councils, community groups and other stakeholders. Within those terms of reference, I expect that the Commission will review what currently makes up London’s public realm, further the discussion into what legacy should be celebrated, and make recommendations as part of their work to establish best practice and standards. It will be wide in scope and consider commemoration, murals, street art, street names and memorials. There will be an open call for independent members of the Commission working in partnership with councils, communities and stakeholders across the capital. In the meantime, the Local Government Association (LGA) has issued a useful advice note for its members outlining some approaches to reviewing existing statues and memorials.

Chair, I have also had a request for an oral update from Assembly Member [Siân] Berry in relation to arrests made during the protest this weekend.

Like me, millions of Londoners would have been disgusted by these shameful scenes of violence, desecration and racism displayed by the right-wing extremists who gathered in our city this weekend. In the face of attacks and abuse, our police did a fantastic job to control the situation and to them I want to say thank you. In total, 128 arrests have been made in connection to the disorder for a range of offences including breach of the peace, violent disorder, possession of an offensive weapon, possession of Class A drugs and being drunk and disorderly. Unfortunately, arrests also had to be made after 23 officers were injured. It is clear that far-right groups were intent on causing violence and disorder in central London. We will not tolerate violence, vandalism and attacks on our police, and perpetrators will feel the full force of the law.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): I already have a list of Members who have requested that they may want to come in with supplementary questions. Can I start with Assembly Member Duvall?

Len Duvall AM: Chair, I have a question later on the agenda. I do not want to abuse the position, but there are some questions arising from the Mayor’s report. I would like to ask a couple of questions.

Mr Mayor, thank you very much. It is right and responsible that we take early action if we can identify problems in terms of our budget. It just comes to mind. Are we in a position where we have articulated our assessments back to central Government? Have we done it for the GLA Group and family and are we doing it with the London councils and other public services that are under financial pressure? If we have not done it, when are you able to share that with us?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Thank you, Assembly Member Duvall. Yes, we are talking regularly with the Ministry for Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG), other departments in Government including the Prime Minister’s team, and also London councils. That includes the boroughs and also the Corporation, the MPS, the London Fire Brigade (LFB), the development corporations and other partners across London.

The key point to make, Assembly Member Duvall - and you will know this from previous experiences - is that we received roughly speaking £3.4 billion from a combination of business rates and council tax. There are three big issues. One is that we have spent a huge amount in dealing with COVID-19 and our response and so our expenditure has gone up, including expenditure of councils. On business rates, we know for a variety of reasons that are obvious that businesses’ pay has gone down. The Government is giving some relief to London but it does not meet the gap in relation to the business rates shortfall. Also, we know that the estimates made by councils in relation to council tax this year will fall way short because many families will now be in receipt of benefits rather than paying the full council tax. We are in conversations with the Government.

One of the reasons why I was quite keen to make sure I informed Londoners about the scale of the challenge is to make sure Londoners were aware of what potentially could happen if the Government does not step in to help us. By the way, this is a challenge being felt across the country. As recently as yesterday I spoke to the Metro Nine (M9) who have similar challenges. We are speaking to the LGA, which represents a number of councils across the country. You will have seen, Assembly Member Duvall, during Prime Minister’s Questions the exchange between the Leader of Her Majesty’s Official Opposition and the Prime Minister where [The Rt Hon] Keir Starmer [MP, Leader of the Opposition] pointed to a letter from Conservative leaders expressing their concerns about this very same issue.

Len Duvall AM: Sorry, Mr Mayor, can I just come back on that. Thank you for that answer and that was very detailed, but I would like to know when we are going to see not just the technical case and the financial gap but the case for why we should get that money in this particular time. I can think of some really good reasons for why the Government should not go down the austerity route, but I am just wondering when we are going to see that case for London being made and when we can share that. It goes over and above the technical finances, “We want money to fill this gap”. It is a question of what we want the money for because we will be continuing the same but also we will be meeting the new challenges of COVID-19 and the economic downturn. I just want to push you a little bit further. When are we likely to see that case and when will you share that with us and Londoners?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I hope to share the draft budget guidance with colleagues, including Londoners, in the next week or two.

Len Duvall AM: It is a bit more than budget guidance I am asking for, Mr Mayor. It is the actual case - both you and I share that view - for why we should have that money when we know we are going to be in an economic downturn and what we would use that money for. Hopefully, it might be in the budget guidance, but I would have thought it might be in a separate document. Thank you, Mr Mayor.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Assembly Member Hall, do you want to come in at this stage?

Susan Hall AM: Can I nail you down, please, on this budget guidance? Clearly, there is an awful lot of work that has to be done on this by the [London Assembly’s] Budget and Performance Committee. You are saying in the next week or two. Our first meeting to look at this is on 7 July [2020]. I do not want the documents the night before so that we cannot look at them properly. Can I pin you down, please? When will we have the budget guidance through?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): As soon as we can. If it is not ready in final form, Assembly Member Hall, I can try to make sure that you as the Chairman [of the Budget and Performance Committee] have a draft version by next week. Does that work for you?

Susan Hall AM: If I can have a draft one by then, please. Can I plead with you, please? We have been making budget amendments for the last four years. We found £113 million worth of savings in the last budget, which you did not take. Will you start looking at that, please, as a matter of urgency? I will leave it there. Thank you, Chair.

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I will not if you play political games as you have done over the last four years, but if you want to work sensibly across the political divide, of course I am always happy to work with colleagues, colleagues who are sensible and not tribally political. Of course I will work with them.

Susan Hall AM: That is a silly comment, but I am used to that. Thank you, Chair.

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I am sure you are. We have heard lots of yours over the last four years.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): All right. I have a number of --

Susan Hall AM: I have only actually been here for three years, Mr Mayor. I have only actually been on the Assembly three years. Thank you.

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): It does feel like longer.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): If you can stop that, please. I have a number of other Members who have potentially indicated they want to come in. I am not sure whether they are to do with the two questions raised by Assembly Member Boff and Assembly Member Berry.

Assembly Member , did you want to come in on the update now or do you want to wait for the other two?

Tony Devenish AM: Yes, please, Chair, if I could. Thank you. Good morning, Mr Mayor. There is one issue, in all seriousness, you missed in your update and that is job creation and job protection in London. Can I give you two examples where you have power to do something that will really help real Londoners?

The first is [The Rt Hon] Robert Jenrick’s [MP, Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government] letter to you of 10 June [2020] on shovel-ready projects, which I believe all mayors and Local Enterprise Partnerships (LEPs) have to respond to by today. My first question is: have you got that letter, are you going to respond today and can you send a copy to the Assembly, please, on shovel-ready projects to kick-start the economy?

My second point is, in terms of planning, you have recovered some of the largest job-creating large planning applications in recent weeks and months. When will you fix the date for these public hearings, please, and when will you put that on the (GLA) website? Thank you.

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Can I thank the Assembly Member for those really sensible questions.

In relation to Robert Jenrick, just to reassure Assembly Member Devenish, we have been working really closely together over the last few weeks with MHCLG and City Hall and Robert Jenrick in particular and me. The letter will go today and it does include a list of shovel- ready projects.

Assembly Member, I need to get permission from MHCLG. If they are happy for me to make the letter public, I can do so, but at the very least I am sure they will be agreeable to me releasing it to the Assembly. Subject to them agreeing that, I am very happy, Chair, to share that with the Assembly at least, but it does have a large list of shovel-ready projects. You will be pleased to know because I know of your interest as constituency Member that it does include Hammersmith Bridge as well and the short-term funds that could really help in relation to that.

In relation to job creation and the second question, you will be aware of the difficulties with COVID-19. We are trying to set up these hearings virtually. What I will do is make sure, Chair, again, with your permission, to let colleagues know when those dates are, but I was told as recently as yesterday that we have some dates pencilled in. We have to speak to the various parties to make sure it works for them. You will be aware that some of the residents often have to check they have the facilities, but subject to those conditions I am more than happy to share at least the draft dates, just to reassure you we are making progress. Our officers have worked really hard to do so.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Can I ask Assembly Member Whittle if he wants to ask any supplementary question?

Peter Whittle AM: Good morning, Mr Mayor. I want to ask you about your new Commission on Diversity in the Public Realm. I have looked at your press release. As far as I can see, there are no terms of reference as such formally yet, but I would like to know. Where do you derive the authority to stand in judgement on London and British history? So far as I know it was not in your manifesto. You have never mentioned it before. You mentioned at the very beginning of this that in fact we were in the worst crisis since the Second World War. Yet you choose in the middle of that bad crisis to introduce something which is divisive and which will in fact, I believe, encourage people who are already attacking our monuments around the country. What is your authority for setting up this kangaroo court, Mr Mayor?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I am sorry the Assembly Member feels this way. I will give one example of one of the ways that I responded to campaigning on issues. When I first became Mayor, a campaign began from Caroline Criado-Perez [British author], who noticed that there were 11 statues of great people in Parliament Square but none were of women. I responded to the campaign and in 2018 was really pleased to unveil the first statue of a woman in Parliament Square, [Dame] Millicent Fawcett [women’s suffragist], who stands there proudly in Parliament Square.

One of the things that I am cognisant of is that a number of areas of the public realm in our cities are under the direct control of the Mayor. Some areas are like Parliament Square. Others are under the control of councils or universities or the arts sector. One of the reasons why we are setting up a commission is to get partners like council leaders, those in the arts world and others on board to look into whether the public realm in our city fully reflects the diversity of the contributions made towards our city.

I am sorry if he thinks it does, but my view and the view of many Londoners is it does not. That includes issues like street names, public squares, murals and plaques. He will have heard the announcement from English Heritage this week, who are reviewing the blue plaques to make sure they are reflective. The Assembly had a really good campaign. [OBE AM] when she was Chair led a campaign to look at whether the plaques we have properly reflect a contribution of diverse Londoners. The Assembly did a good job last year in trying to rectify that and it was warmly welcomed by Londoners.

Peter Whittle AM: Mr Mayor, this stuff is straight out of the Maoist Cultural Revolution playbook. You say in your press release that you will stand as judge, jury and executioner on the various legacies that should or should not be celebrated.

I would ask you. Not very far from where we are, at the bottom of the Mall, there is a huge iconic statue to Queen Victoria. She was the very symbol of the Victorian London that you in your press release --

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Can you ask your question, please?

Peter Whittle AM: Yes, exactly. Will she be on your list? She was after all the very symbol of British imperial power in the 19th century. Will she be on your list? Will you be looking at her, too?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Firstly, Chair, I do not have a list, but I would be astonished if anybody were seriously recommending that Queen Victoria’s statue be removed.

Peter Whittle AM: Why not? It is anyone. You are so vague in this that it is anyone connected. We know that this is just the beginning of this, Mr Mayor. We know what this is. This is the beginning of it because already we have people saying we should take down the statue of [Sir] Arthur Harris [Marshal of the Royal Air Force, commonly known as "Bomber" Harris]. All around the country we are seeing people say [Sir] Francis Drake [naval explorer] and this kind of thing. You gave official encouragement. It is unbelievably irresponsible at the very height of a very tense situation. You --

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Assembly Member Whittle, you have made your point very clearly. Can you ask a question if you have one?

Peter Whittle AM: Sorry, Chair.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): All right. Let us move on to Assembly Member Boff. Do you want to have any follow-up on the question that you raised in the first place? I do apologise. I should have called you in before. Assembly Member Boff?

Andrew Boff AM: Thank you. No concerns there, Chair. Will you consider adding social class to the list of those groups that need redress and representation?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): That is a really good plan. I am sure the Commission will look into that. The Commission - not me but the 15 independent members and the two Deputy Mayors - will look into this. We are working on terms of reference but I will make sure that your suggestion is passed on to those working on the terms of reference.

Andrew Boff AM: Will the Commission that will be looking into diversity be politically diverse itself?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I certainly hope so. It is really important that we properly reflect our city’s diversity and that includes the point you referred to in relation to politics as well.

Andrew Boff AM: Along with adding to the public domain, will you consider removing monuments from it, and who will decide what the criteria for considering removal will be?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): This was your original question, Assembly Member Boff, which I sought to respond to. None of this has been worked out because it is really important to take on board various views. You will have strong views, I am sure. Please feel free to feed in your views to the two Deputy Mayors and also to the independent members once they have been appointed. There will be an open advertising process for the vacancies. You can apply to be one of those members but I am sure others will as well. People will apply to be independent

members of the Commission and the terms of reference will be worked on. If there are any strong views you have in relation to the points you have raised, please feel free to feed them in.

Andrew Boff AM: Are you saying that monuments will be considered for removal?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I do not see why they should not be.

Andrew Boff AM: How long is this Commission going to deliberate for?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): One of the things we want to do is for the Commission to work out a timeline. You will be aware of the large amount of time that there needs to be - and rightly so - in relation to formal consultations. Changing a street name is not straightforward. Also, I am well aware that a large number of streets in our city are not under the control of City Hall. Roughly speaking, 95% are under the control of the boroughs. The boroughs, not unreasonably, will want to have consultations before they change street names or square names. English Heritage’s process for a blue plaque, for example, takes some time.

They will have to work out a timeline in relation to any new statutes being unveiled. From personal experience, for example, it took us about 18 months before Millicent Fawcett was finally unveiled as a new statue in Parliament Square. That is an example of a big statue in Parliament Square, really different to what could happen in squares and streets across our city.

Andrew Boff AM: Finally, Mr Mayor, when the Commission makes recommendations, perhaps to boroughs, will those recommendations be effectively recommendations from the Mayor of London? Will you endorse the recommendations?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): I should just distinguish, the LGA has separately put out its guidance for local authorities. You will be aware that local authorities are responsible for what happens on streets and spaces that are under the control of the local authorities. We have no power and nor would I think it appropriate for us to force --

Andrew Boff AM: Mr Mayor, that is not what I asked. Presumably, the Commission is going to make recommendations. Will those recommendations effectively be from you as Mayor of London?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): It depends what they are.

Andrew Boff AM: You will overrule recommendations that the Commission may make?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): That was not your question. Your question was whether they would have my approval. I will have to wait and see once the Commission comes back with recommendations whether I approve of them or not.

Andrew Boff AM: This Commission is semi-independent from the Mayor of London and it is not about the Mayor of London’s decisions; it is about the Commission’s?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): The best comparator at this stage is the Fourth Plinth. I am not a judge in relation to the Fourth Plinth. There is a separate body of experts that comes up with recommendations for what goes on the Fourth Plinth. That has been the case for some time. It is a really good system.

Andrew Boff AM: Thank you, Mr Mayor. That is fine. You have answered the question. You are very kind.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Lastly, Assembly Member Kurten, do you want to have any follow- up questions on the Mayor’s oral report or the two questions that were raised?

David Kurten AM: Good morning, Mr Mayor. There are many things you said in your oral report about what has gone on in the last week and particularly of note was your support for the organisation called Black Lives Matter. I am sure we agree with that as a phrase and of course most people would agree that all lives matter, whether they are black, white, brown or any other colour, but Black Lives Matter is an anarchist and a Marxist organisation that wants to defund the police.

As you are in charge of the police in London, why are you supporting an organisation that wants to defund the police?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): You are conflating organisations with movements and the cause. I support fully the Black Lives Matter movement. I do not support individual organisations that you referred to. I am quite clear. The police need more funds, not less. I am not in favour of defunding the police. I have spent the last four years campaigning to get decent funding and for the Government to reverse the cuts. The evidence from the last ten years is that the only people defunding the police are the Conservative Government.

David Kurten AM: I am glad to hear that you do not want to defund the police, but whether it is a movement or an organisation, the aim of this movement is to defund the police. There are another set of aims as well that are very much on the far left, Marxist side of politics.

Another one of the aims is to disrupt the natural nuclear family, which would cause chaos in society. That is part of the movement. Do you support that aim as well, Mr Mayor?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Chair, if the question is if I want to, in inverted commas, “disrupt the nuclear family”, the answer is probably no, is it not?

David Kurten AM: That is good. It is good to know that when you think about it, you do not actually agree with the aims of this movement Black Lives Matter. Maybe it is good to ‘red pill’ you a little bit, Mr Mayor.

Another one of their aims is to smash capitalism. Do you think that is a good aim of Black Lives Matter as well?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): The premise of these questions is based upon misunderstandings about what the Black Lives Matter movement is about. What I would say respectfully to the Assembly Member is to just look into what the Black Lives Matter movement is about and the history of the Black Lives Matter movement, which began before George Floyd’s brutal killing, which was videoed and seen across the world as the racism, the discrimination and the inequality that black people face not just in Minneapolis, Minnesota and the United States of America (USA) but around the world as well, but also the fact that our city has benefited hugely from slavery and the legacy of slavery. Indeed, both you and I were paying in our taxes reparations to slave owners who freed slaves 200 years ago. What the Black Lives Matter movement is about is recognising that still in 2020 there is racism, inequality and discrimination. I note that others, who are clearly trying to find ulterior motives for Black Lives Matters to denigrate the organisation, should reflect why they feel so strongly and are being resistant to fighting racism, inequality and discrimination.

David Kurten AM: Mr Mayor, I have looked at Black Lives Matter. I have looked into it, which is why I am asking you these questions. You can look on the website of Black Lives Matter and their aims are just there and are stated. It does not seem that you actually knew that that is what their real aims are.

Of course we all are horrified at slavery that took place 200 to 500 years ago in this country, but slavery still goes on. There are 27 million slaves around the world --

Navin Shah AM (Chair): What is your question, please?

David Kurten AM: I know you like to make comments about what is going on around the world, but one of the countries where there is still slavery going on is Libya. There are black slaves there. Many of the Arab people living in Libya actually put black people into slavery. Do you have anything to say about that? That is where we should be focused today, on stopping modern slavery, rather than worrying about statues and things that happened 200 years ago.

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): As Mayor, I am committed more to addressing the issue of modern slavery than any Mayor in the history of our city, but I will tell you this. Our ability to fight slavery in Libya or elsewhere is made much harder by the Government abolishing the Department for International Development (DfID), one of the greatest legacies of the Labour Government established in 1997. If you feel so strongly about slavery in Libya, you should be campaigning with Labour against the Government plans to merge DfID into the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) so that it is subsumed and the work it does is diluted.

David Kurten AM: That is a completely other point, but what has happened there is a good thing because DfID really just wastes a lot of British taxpayers’ money on often green projects, sticking up wind farms in areas where they do not provide much electricity and so on. That is a whole other matter.

In this country there is one issue of slavery that I do need to point out and that is the case of raping and grooming gangs, which have gone on in this country in Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby, Oxford, Bristol and in London as well. This is done, as we know from the Quilliam Foundation

report, by majority ethnic Pakistani heritage people. They put people into sex slavery in this country.

Do you think that is an area that we need to focus on when we are dealing with modern slavery?

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Some of the prosecutions were brought by the Chief Prosecutor as he was then, Nazir Afzal, who, according to my basic knowledge of Islam and Pakistan, is of Pakistani origin and Islamic faith, a good example of a Chief Prosecutor using his values to do good in relation to bringing prosecutions against the groomers and stuff. I am really proud of any prosecutions being brought and people who are guilty of these heinous crimes being brought to book. It is really important for the full force of the law to be brought against anybody committing these sorts of heinous criminal offences, as indeed are all serious criminal offences, particularly against women and girls.

David Kurten AM: These have been found in many other cities and towns around the country but there have not been many prosecutions happen in London. As the Police Commissioner for Northumberland said, this is happening everywhere and the only reason why it is not being found is that people are not looking.

Are you looking in London for grooming gangs in London in order to prosecute people? If it is going on in cities like Oxford, Bristol, Peterborough and Aylesbury and in smaller places, it is surely going on in London as well on a large scale.

Sadiq Khan (Mayor of London): Can I just be clear, Chair: is the inference that because of my faith or my ethnic origin I am not seeking to follow up these crimes?

David Kurten AM: No. I am asking you because you are the Police and Crime Commissioner.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Assembly Member Kurten, you are pretty much drifting off the subject itself and so can I just ask you to stick to the topic and ask a relevant question, please?

David Kurten AM: Chair, I was originally asking about Black Lives Matter and then the Mayor started talking about slavery and the questioning has developed --

Navin Shah AM (Chair): Yes, but you are still going off on a tangent now and so can you please be cautious about that and not ask --

David Kurten AM: Chair, if you want to disallow my question, that is your prerogative.

Navin Shah AM (Chair): I will use that, then. Thank you very much.