IN PARTNERSHIP WITH

AN ORAL HISTORY OF BRITISH FASHION

Betty Jackson

Interviewed by Eva Simmons

C1046/10

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NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION

INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET Title Page

Ref. No.: C1046/10/01-26 Playback No: F15711, F16089-92, F16724- 8, F16989-96, F17511-8

Collection title: Oral History of British Fashion

Interviewee’s surname: Jackson Title: Ms

Interviewee’s forenames: Betty Sex: F

Occupation: Fashion Designer Date of birth: 1949

Mother’s occupation: Housewife Father’s occupation: Shoe Manufacturer

Date(s) of recording:

14.07.04, 29.09.04, 20.10.04, 25.11.04, 02.12.04, 14.01.05, 25.02.05, 08.04.05, 22.04.05, 06.05.05, 03.06.05, 27.06.05

Location of interview: Betty Jackson’s office, Shepherds Bush, London

Name of interviewer: Eva Simmons

Type of recorder: Marantz CP430

Total no. of tapes: 26 Type of tape: D60

Mono or stereo: Stereo Speed: N/A

Noise reduction: Dolby B Original or copy: Original

Additional material:

Copyright/Clearance: open

Interviewer’s comments:

Betty Jackson Page 1 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

Tape 1 Side A [part 1]

This is Eva Simmons interviewing Betty Jackson. It’s Wednesday the fourteenth of July 2004 and we’re starting tape one. And let me ask you first of all Betty, if I may call you that, to go right back and tell me how far back in your family d’you remember, in other words did you know any great grandparents or grandparents and you know, what d’you remember about them?

I knew both, well half of one set of grandparents and both of the other grandparents. I didn’t know anybody further back than that. My paternal grandfather had already died, but ah, my paternal grandmother was alive and quite a strong… really… we lived very close to her and she was quite an influence on our family generally. My mother came from Yorkshire and had sort of, was regarded very much as a bit of a foreigner I think, in sort of, she’d travelled from abroad as far as people in Lancashire were concerned. And we used to go and visit my mother’s parents and I just remember that being much easier. I remember them being much softer and gentler and you know, living in a lovely house with a garden and you know, it just generally being less pressure, but I don’t know why that was [laughs] really. But my father’s mother was quite a demanding lady. I mean I think most people had quite a tough life then. I mean there were reasons why she was like that. My grandfather, they had been quite well off and they owned one of the stone quarries, the slate quarries in the area, in sort of industrial north of England. And my grandfather was blinded by one of the explosions that was set off; he went to see, there was an explosion that didn’t set off and he went to see and it went off and blinded him. So I think that when that happened, there wasn’t really a welfare state and all of that stuff so it took all of the family resources to get him back on track, so you know, the family business that had been in the family for generations was immediately got rid of and blahdy blah, and I think my grandmother then had to think about making a living for her husband and her only child, which was my father. So they had a small corner store, which meant that she controlled the local community I think really. But they also managed to build half the church and have a pew, you know and all of that sort of stuff, so she was quite a sort of strong, rather divisive force I think, in the family, I think my mother always found her quite difficult and, anyway. I do remember her influence when we were little.

Betty Jackson Page 2 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

When would this accident have taken place, d’you know?

Before I was born. My sister remembers my grandfather and then he died, but I absolutely don’t know the dates. And both my parents have also died, so you know, it’s one of those things that is sort of lost now, but I remember the stories really. And so my father, who was up to that time going to follow his father of course into the stone business, was suddenly told to change direction and there was the war; he went to be a captain in the Lancashire Fusiliers and all of that and went to Egypt and fought in the war and came back and opened, you know, became a businessman really, which was actually what people did really. And he opened, he had a shoe company which sold, which made, manufactured components for shoes. In the area that we came from, it was largely to do with Lancashire cotton and of course when the cotton industry slumped, all of the mills were converted into shoe factories, you know it was a huge industry grew up around those existing buildings and the workforce of course, as well. And so my father did that, along with a lot of his colleagues, you know. There was a sort of band of them, I remember you know. A very small town where everybody knew each other and everybody helped each other out I think then. So, that’s what he did.

Tell me more about your grandmother, as much as you remember. Where was she living first of all?

In the same town. And I remember we used to, Sundays were sort of a ritual, you know, church in the morning, Sunday lunch, conversation and then she’d go. But you know, there was a sort of, I remember also we had, she had to be sort of looked after, before she died, but it’s quite different. I also remember going to stay with her, myself and my sister, which was huge fun, you know. I mean she used to tell us stories about cats and witches, you know, and it was a sort of, there was a magic there as well, but I think it was probably later on I became aware of the stress and the pressure she put on my parents and I rather resented that I think. But anyway, it was just a fact, I think a lot of people go through that. But I remember having fantastically magical weekends with my sister, you know. And sleeping in the same bed as my sister when I went there, because I was frightened. You know, I’m the little sister, my sister is older, and it being incredibly comfortable and being allowed to you know, have toast in bed and things like this. Things that we were not Betty Jackson Page 3 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1) allowed to do at home, and so there was a sort of, there was a loveliness about it as well, but I just remember that later on it got quite difficult, quite tricky. So that’s what I remember about that.

And when you went to stay with her, d’you know whether that was her suggestion or did you and your sister ask to go there, did your parents – you know, what were the sort of…?

I’ve no idea, I mean I think most people lived an extended family life, you know, that grandparents were included in the general run of the family, you know. My parents were very social, sociable, social people and I remember there were lots of parties and they went out to dinner dances and they went out to drinks and you know, they were quite sociable folk. So maybe it was a babysitting thing, I don’t know. [laughs]

Would you just go for a night at a time, or longer?

Sometimes longer, sometimes, but usually you know, couple at most.

And over what sort of…?

But also, don’t you remember, I mean if, for example, you know, travelling was much more difficult. We lived in a village that was only about seventeen miles from Manchester, but to get to Manchester was a whole day’s journey in those… you know, it sounds mediaeval doesn’t it, but actually to travel anywhere was a nightmare, even though you know, my parents had a big car. But you know, it was trickier then, you know, you didn’t go on a journey so readily or easily as one does now, so maybe it was that also.

So how did you get to her – in the car?

Yeah, uh huh.

Your parents would take you?

Yeah. Betty Jackson Page 4 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

And how far was it?

Couple of miles.

And how did she live, what sort of a place did she live in?

My grandmother?

Mm.

Well, it was a sort of smallish sort of house, quite comfortable. I remember big coal fires and you know, and lots to eat and you know, there was a lady who came in and sort of cleaned up, who we used to call Aunt Fanny. But this is quite a long time ago, [laughs] it’s quite tricky and I remember you know, baths and then sitting by the fire and you know, brushing hair and things like that. I mean it sounds completely Victorian, but it’s actually you know, what we did and I don’t remember, I don’t remember – she had a television, but that was in another room, but that really didn’t, you know, it was games and talking and you know, rather a warm feeling I think really. I mean we were quite secure in all of that. I came from a very normal, secure background I think, generally.

And when you arrived there, I mean what would be a typical visit or can you remember a specific visit, you know?

I remember, I don’t, I mean I remember she must have been quite a big part of our lives when I was little and I remember you know, Christmasses and certain days of the year one always went to grandmother’s for lunch and I remember certain days she – every Sunday she used to come to ours, but so did a few people – and you know, I remember probably it being more of a sort of ritual really, rather than a spontaneous gesture. But I think lots of things were, it was actually, you know maybe family life was organised a little bit more like that, really, because it was more difficult to live wasn’t it, I mean it was slightly harder really. Things took longer, you know. Shopping and cooking and cleaning and whatever the household duties were, they took longer didn’t they, even if you had somebody to help. Betty Jackson Page 5 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

I think the whole business of life probably took longer. Or maybe people have more time, I don’t know, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t remember it being completely spontaneous, I remember it being organised, or maybe I just didn’t pay attention and I just went and followed where everybody else – don’t forget I was the little one of the family, so maybe nobody told me, you know, I mean that’s another possibility I suppose. [laughs]

What’s the difference in age between you and your sister?

Three and a half years.

So, you would arrive at your grandmother’s house, she’d give you something to eat or, tell you to take your shoes off or…?

So well, yes we’d arrive and I remember there was always a meal or always supper on a tray, which was completely exotic and… [knocking sound] Do I have to say that again?

No.

Okay.

A very exotic meal?

Yeah, well it was just the fact of having supper on one’s knee, I think that was exotic. And games I think, you know either board games or writing down games or you know, sort of IQ games and Brains Trust and stuff like that really. And you know, and then sort of cocoa in bed, really comfortable I remember it being comfortable. And that’s really what I remember, she was quite a sort of smart, formidable, she’d trained as a nurse and you know, she was quite a sort of powerful figure really, I think. And I remember it being secure I think.

Was the food itself exotic at all?

Betty Jackson Page 6 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

No, not at all. Goodness me, this is the north of England. I remember, I remember quite vividly my mother coming home one day or, I don’t know whether I was there, but I remember her buying avocado pears for the first time, bringing them home and we thought they were completely fantastic. It was a completely different, you know, we didn’t have pasta or anything like that, that was just not available. It didn’t figure in our diet at all and chickens were a luxury and you know, one had lamb and beef as a matter of course really, but chicken and turkey was a complete luxury, so I think that one’s eating patterns have changed radically, really.

And going back to this visit to your grandmother, how old are you in your mind’s eye?

Probably about five or six.

And going on for how long, these visits, d’you know?

D’you know, I can’t remember. I think it probably stopped, because then of course my sister then would be eight or nine and I’m sure when she hit teenager stuff, you know, the divide between us was much wider. I remember her having her friends and I remember having to, her telling me to walk three paces behind them and not to, you know. I remember her turning round, saying, ‘You’ve come closer’. [laughs] And things like that. But I think that that must have been when she was thirteen and I was nine or ten you know, and obviously they had things to talk about that I would just mess up, really. So I think that the whole thing sort of stopped. I don’t remember it – or maybe it was because grandma was ill. I don’t remember at all, really, it just sort of fades away.

What did she look like, your grandmother?

She had long red hair, which turned white, but she wore it in plait, it was curly and it was very, very long, she wore in a plait and then it was sort of done up in a bun, quite sort of severe, you know, with combs in. She was fairly I think, maybe five seven, five eight. Really quite fit, I mean everybody walked everywhere of course then, as well. Really quite fit and quite a strong woman I think too. Certainly not slender, but not overweight either. You know, that sort of formidable, you know, sort of grandma looking person really, that’s Betty Jackson Page 7 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1) the only way I can describe her. She had glasses and well, and scrubbed face, never any adornment at all, quite severely dressed I think, you know, navy blue and stout shoes.

[laughs] Navy blue what?

Suits or coats or you know, that sort of worsted wool. Always quite good quality I think, I don’t remember her in anything, I never remember her in patterns or I never remember her in… they were always sort of quite dark colours really. And coats, I always sort of can remember her in coats, but she must have worn dresses, but I can’t remember. I think she had long sort of white nighties as well – you know that sort of… It’s such a long time ago now that it’s only an impression. I can see her face quite clearly, but the rest of her not, very much.

Can you describe her look, as it were?

Severe, I think. Smart and severe.

And is the expression on her face severe as well?

Yes, I think it is, yes. Yes. I think it is. Yes. I mean but I, yeah I think it is severe, probably.

And yet, affectionate to you?

Yes. Yes, quite affectionate to us, but not affectionate as a person I don’t think. Maybe it had quite a lot of trauma and quite a lot of personal hardship. My grandfather was an only son of – and then there were five sisters, who I think gave her quite a hard time, she gave them quite a hard time. It was a big family and she also had a big, had four or five brothers, so there was a lot of people, you know, to deal with and quite a few of them were very, very successful. You know, families were quite close knit then, you know, you came from this sort of family and you know, you the person, I mean everybody seemed to know everybody, that was the extraordinary thing. Of course I think, I suppose the war changed all of that, but when my father met my mother and brought her home, that was Betty Jackson Page 8 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1) extraordinary that he wasn’t marrying somebody that everybody knew, you know. He brought this person home who was glamorous and you know, beautiful and that was quite a shock I think for everybody really. But I remember lots of people at Christmas and endless visits you know, to great aunts and great uncles and none of them, we had one, one of my grandmother’s brothers who had a, who lived in Bombay, had a cotton plantation out there, so that was…

Which grandmother?

My father’s grandmother, the person we’re speaking of. And they used to sort of sail in and sail out again and I remember that being quite exciting, because they were always, well, completely tanned, so a different colour from everybody else. And they always brought gifts and, you know and they were, and they did wear jewellery. I remember my great uncle wearing jewellery, this was quite shocking you know, because nobody ever did do that. And his wife was considered to be far too frivolous by my grandmother. So you know, there was all of that, but it was because of the way they were living.

What sort of jewellery did he wear?

Gold jewellery.

Rings, bracelets?

A ring and a bracelet. It was the bracelet I remember that caused most of our… it’s extraordinary isn’t it really? But he was incredibly sort of dapper and smart and you know, well dressed. I mean most of them were really, I think. You know, it was the thing, you had to be, it was part of life I think really, you know. You had to sort of put on a bit of a show I suppose, I don’t know, but they were. Looked after things, you know. I remember it was you know, the whole base was good quality really, even if you didn’t have a lot, which I’m sure my grandmother’s circumstances were much reduced after my grandfather had his accident, but nevertheless you know, shoes were polished and clothes were brushed and you know, kept in garment covers. You know, there was somebody to Betty Jackson Page 9 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1) look after all that and shirts were laundered and things like - you know what I mean, it was sort of organised really.

And where did you see your great aunt and uncle, was that at your grandmother’s or at your parents?

Sometimes. Sometimes they visited us. When they came, they came back for holidays and sometimes we met in hotels I remember, we went to lunch sometimes in hotels.

Can you say a bit more about what they looked like?

I remember my great aunt was very short and quite plump. Also had red – well the whole family had red wavy hair. My uncle had red hair that he wore sort of manicured back, if you can say that about hair, but it was wavy, lovely wide face. They looked very alike, this – it was her younger brother – and they looked very alike, but you know how some features work in females and don’t work in – well, that was the reverse. He was considered quite handsome I suppose and my aunt was rather dumpy, but quite a feisty sort of, you know, had a lot to say and was obviously good fun, I think. I think also, a lot, I mean a lot of the underlining, a lot of the things that I remember about the family – I mean I do remember the stress that you know, particular occasions caused – but I do remember that families created fun together. There was a lot of people at Christmas, everybody played games and joined in and it was, there was a feeling of benevolence and excess and you know, and pleasure and laughter and all of that stuff. And maybe I’m seeing it through rose… but that’s really what, my feelings about my family, I think.

So what was the stress and strain?

Well only because you know, she was such a demanding person and demanded of my parents, that’s the only thing and I think she put both my parents under a – just by being difficult and tricky and you know. And maybe not having as much fun as her brothers and sisters were, so there was probably a bit of resentment about that and my grandfather dying soon after he’d had his accident and her having, you know, obviously that – I mean I don’t really know about that bit at all, but you know, considering when it was, it must have been Betty Jackson Page 10 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1) pretty hard going really, you know. The National Health didn’t swing into action, whatever you know, everything had to be sorted out at home. So I suppose it was, so I suppose she had quite a hard time really.

So how are these demands expressed – what did she say or do?

I don’t remember at all. I don’t remember, it’s only a feeling I have. I absolutely don’t remember, so it’s really – I was very young too, you know, she died when I was still quite young too, so you know, I really, it’s only an impression I can speak about, that’s all. But I certainly don’t remember conversations, I don’t remember witnessing rows or I remember the feeling of stress that this person provoked in our life.

So where does your feeling come from? What kind of memory?

I don’t know, I mean just maybe an anxiety, you know about, or maybe it was the tedium of every Sunday being the same thing, you know maybe my mother just had had enough at one stage, quite rightly I think. So maybe it was that. But I really can’t remember a specific, you know, there certainly wasn’t ever a huge family bust up or anything like that. The lid was kept on it, you know, we were protected from it, it was you know, you just get a feeling don’t you, I mean it’s just an intuitive feeling.

Well, feeling usually comes from something that someone said or the expression on their face or something.

Yeah, but you’re going too far back to remember conversations, I’m afraid.

What do you think it was your mother had enough of?

Well maybe it was just you know, the routine. Maybe it was, everybody has times when actually, you know what, I don’t want to do it this way, I want to change. And I think a lot of families were driven by ritual, driven by the regularity of everyday life. And maybe it was frustration, don’t know. I don’t know.

Betty Jackson Page 11 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

Did she ever say anything to you, or in your hearing, at all that supports…?

In relation to my grandmother?

Yes.

No, I don’t think she ever, she wouldn’t have ever said anything like that, I don’t think to us. I remember she was always incredibly respectful. Maybe it was just to friends and people who came round that she confessed, but there wasn’t a family conspiracy against my grandmother by any means, you know. Maybe it was just in a [sighs] right we have to go, or [sighs] right, yes well. She’s here now so we’ll start lunch, or she’ll be here in five minutes, get, you know, it was that sort of thing really, maybe. Just a bit of a cloud. [laughs]

Sort of dampening of the atmosphere?

Well maybe, yeah maybe. But certainly not all the time, certainly not all the time. But you know how you know that somebody is really quite forceful and, and maybe it was a you know, a mother-in-law situation. Everybody has those, you know, and my father was an only son and you know, she had grown up, he had grown up in this very protected environment and you know, maybe my grandmother was a control freak or she’d had to control their lives since my… So, maybe that’s the reason. You know, two quite strong women coming together, because my mother was also quite a feisty character. [laughs] So maybe it was that.

And where was your father in all this? Between these two women.

Oh, I think he kept his countenance probably. He was a very gentle man, so he never provoked any confrontation, he was very kind.

Were there times when all of you went to visit your grandmother together, I mean apart from the times when you and your sister stayed?

Betty Jackson Page 12 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side A (part 1)

I suppose so, yeah, I suppose so. I suppose so. At maybe Christmas or New Year, you know, there’d be sort of all of us together.

Did she ever talk about your grandfather?

Yes, yes. She did. Regretfully about the accident obviously, I think he also was hugely respected and obviously quite a catch. [laughs] And I think they really did have a very happy life until the accident happened.

[End of Tape 1 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 13 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

Tape 1 Side B [part 2]

They had a very happy life I think, and I think, it seems to me that he was unable to do very much after he was blinded and, but he was still I think, I mean the impression – I never met him, I don’t know – but the impression I get was that he was wise and people sought him out anyway, so he must have been. You know, people always spoke of him in rather glowing terms, so he must have been a very nice man I think.

D’you remember photographs of him?

Yeah.

What was he like?

In a suit with a collar and tie. Holding a hat. You know, grey tweed suit. Different pictures really.

So she talked about their life together, can you say a bit more about the sort of descriptions or…?

No, I can’t remember anything at all about it. I was really far too young, I can’t remember how they lived their life or anything. All I remember is her saying, but I mean there must have been a radical difference after the accident, that’s because that’s the way the conversations were and how tricky you know, it had been since then. I think she felt that she had quite a lot on after that. But I don’t remember, I can’t ever recall her talking about what they did together or anything, or anything in fact, I don’t remember anything. She’s a very single woman in my memories.

When she told you these stories, were they bedtime stories or just passing the day?

Yeah, probably. I mean one sort of talked all the time. You know I think, I think probably there were a lot of stories to tell and I think as a small child you always love to hear, so it Betty Jackson Page 14 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2) was what one talked about I suppose and maybe it was something that she also loved speaking about, so we were good listeners I suppose.

Did she read them, tell them?

Well, we did used to read stories together. We did used to, I mean read children’s books together. She, you know, there was all of that went on, both at home and at her house. But that’s what also what people did, you know, everybody read then. It’s what you did in the evenings isn’t it, listen to music and read.

And the games that you played – she played with you?

Yep. Ludo I remember. She was also really good at tiddlywinks, you know but very simple games like that. Snakes and ladders, that sort of thing. You know, she had a set that had been my father’s when he was young, so we were sort of privileged to play with this I suppose. It was all quite careful, but good fun.

And how did she play the game?

I was always a very bad loser and I used to be very cross if I didn’t win. And I’m sure there was a conspiracy. She was also very close to my elder sister, my elder sister was you know, I always said, we always said that she was her favourite. But, so I think that there was a bit of a conspiracy went on to either punish me for being so rude and outrageously behaved or to let me win. [laughs] So it was all very kindly done, I think.

And did your sister like to play as well?

I think so. I mean it’s what we did, so I can’t imagine you know, I remember it being good fun, I remember it being warm and nice feeling, but to actually recall specific conversations or specific moments is very hard.

Tell me a bit more about the house, the inside and the outside, the area that it was in?

Betty Jackson Page 15 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

Of my house?

No, your grandparents – we’ll get to your house next.

It was in a little town. It was a little sort of road off, you had to sort of go under a railway, walk under a railway bridge, it was right by the River Irwell, so the river ran down the back. And it was a stone built – but all of them were – old stone built, sturdy thing. What else?

Suburban sort of neighbourhood or middle class, working class?

Well, no, it was sort of all merged into one really. I don’t, I can’t, I suppose it was working class really. You know, they were all sort of stone built, fairly smallish sort of houses. But I don’t remember, I mean we weren’t all crammed in one room or anything like that, you know, it was a sort of very ordinary sort of house and the river round the back and she, I know she had, I think she must have owned a few properties actually, in a similar sort of vein and I know that she had built, she had a bit of land at the back and she’d built some garages that we let, she let. But I don’t really remember any details about that. And there was a sort of an area that we sat outside and then there was another area that opened out on to where you know, a larger sort of play area. But it was a sort of smallish sort of two bedroom thing.

D’you remember her shop at all?

Yes, that was one room, but it sold everything, you know. So she was just the local person who sold everything, you know. There was remedies for colds and hay fever, as well as chocolate biscuits and you know, tins of sardines. Not, you know, just a sort of everybody sort of shop. I think, she wasn’t the Post Office, sweets and things she sold too and bread and… I mean it was a bit of a delight really, for a small person to go in and you know, she’s always sort of save us something or – I mean I do remember that she worked during the day, so you know, if one paid a visit during the day, she didn’t have very much time, you know. So I remember…

Betty Jackson Page 16 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

So when she was working were you two left alone or how did you…?

Oh I don’t think we went, I don’t think we went when, no I don’t think we went when that was happening, it was weekends and things like that. I don’t remember, no, no, no I don’t think it was that at all.

And where was the shop in relation to the house?

Next door. So it was, there was a sort of walk through bit.

A similar building?

Uh hm.

With an upstairs?

The upstairs, there was a cellar. There was a cellar, but I don’t remember what the upstairs was at all. I remember the cellar was cavernous. It must have gone under the road or under the garden at the back, because it had room after room, the cellar. And that was quite exciting and rather frightening. And I remember at one stage I think, we had a ping- pong table down there, I think. It was you know, it was quite… and she kept cider and – you know, she kept cold things down there I think. And of course there must have been a coal cellar because everybody burnt fuel then. So that must have been a part of it. So there must have been a separate area, but I don’t remember the upstairs at all, I can’t remember ever – must have been an upstairs, but I can’t remember ever going there.

And did she have sort of modern plumbing or outdoor toilets or…?

There was an outdoor toilet, but there was also modern stuff inside. But there was one that, I don’t know whether anybody used it, but it must have been, but generally I do remember. I do remember you know, people coming, friends of hers who had bathrooms put in because I remember where, I remember there was a whole row of houses and of course you know, school friends and people lived, it was really quite common that people Betty Jackson Page 17 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2) had a toilet at the end of the road. You know, there was a sort of row of houses and then at the top of the row of houses there’d be a small row which was everybody’s toilet. So not only did you go outside, but you went down the street to go to the loo, which is extraordinary and it’s not so long ago. Well, I mean it’s fifty years ago, because I’m fifty- five and I remember that, so it’s really astounding when you think. I wonder if they still are? Don’t know, I suppose everybody has got an inside toilet by now.

So no toilets within the house at all?

I remember that. I remember I had a…

Or I mean even outside, on the premises is what I mean, because…

Yes. No, I can remember houses being like that. I remember visiting, I don’t know why I visited, maybe I visited with my father, but I remember people you know, having loos at the end of the road. Extraordinary.

And d’you know what you thought – did you think anything then?

No. No.

I wondered if perhaps you made any sort of comparison of your own life or your family’s lives with those of the people around?

No. No, everybody, there was not really a feeling you know, of hierarchy at all. I don’t remember, I mean you know, it was very much a community. I sort of think that everybody looked after each other, really. I think people’s circumstances were so unimportant, I don’t remember feeling better or worse off than anybody else really. It didn’t exist in our conversation or anything.

And tell me about your other grandparents, your maternal grandparents. What do you remember?

Betty Jackson Page 18 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

They lived in a place called, they lived near Doncaster. And I remember we used to drive, we used to drive every, must have been every month or every two months to see them. And we would go for Saturday lunch and come back Saturday night. But this was an expedition because it was such a long way. And it was the most beautiful drive because it was through Todmorden and Hebden Bridge and Glossop. And my mother had an aunt as well, who lived near Sheffield so we sometimes went there as well. And you know, spectacular countryside, but you know, tiny roads before motorways and things were built. And I also remember, it used to often be really bad weather, foggy. I mean actually fogs were a big part of one’s life at that stage, I suppose because of all the coal burning. [laughs] And I remember my father walking in front of the car, my mother driving with a torch, you know, because you couldn’t see at all. So that must have been tricky. I remember the journey being either fantastically easy, but taking ever such a long time, but it must have only been an hour and a half maximum, but it just you know, it was for ever really. So, they lived in a fairly largish house with – there were four of them, two brothers and my mother and her sister. One of the brothers was killed in the war.

This is your, the four children of those grandparents?

Yeah. And there was a garden and a swing and vegetables and you know, big Aga sort of cooker thing and you know, and a sort of, a sort of sit-in kitchen. It’s tricky to remember. Sort of a sit-in area which had the, and then a scullery sort of off there, but then there was this sort of big cooker that took up, and obviously provided the heat for and then went through and there was a sort of hallway and large sort of drawing room thing and a dining room off the other side. I don’t remember ever, ever, ever staying the night there, but I think we did, but I don’t remember ever going there, but maybe I just can’t recall because I’m sure we did go in the school holidays to stay with them a couple of times. But I have absolutely no recollection of that. This might be tricky too, because there’s lots of my life I can’t remember.

[laughs] And, as far as you can remember, what was it like when you got there?

Spectacularly easy. You know, no pressure. My father sat and smoked a cigar, everybody ate together, there was you know, lots of fun. I remember, I remember sort of sunshine, I Betty Jackson Page 19 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2) remember, because there’s always this sort of rivalry between Lancashire and Yorkshire you know, and my father was very keen on cricket – in fact we used to go to the, in the season, the cricket season, that’s what we used to do on Saturdays – but, and I remember when Lancashire played Yorkshire they wouldn’t speak to each other all of the year. Sort of a bit of a row. And I remember playing cricket in their garden.

You playing cricket?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And rounders and stuff like that, you know.

‘Cos it was pretty unusual for girls to play cricket in those years, wasn’t it?

Yes. Well I was a pretend boy for quite a long time. I used to go to, my father was, he had a season ticket at Burnley Football Club, which was the local football club, and I went with him in the absence of any boys in our family I’m afraid. So, but everybody used to play cricket, I don’t remember there was any, you know, I don’t remember any sexist view on it really. I mean I know boys play cricket, but there wasn’t anything, it was just a ball game, you know, it was just a thing that everybody did. My mother played cricket, it was just fun, you know, I suppose.

Did you all play cricket together?

Yes.

Can you remember a match or a game?

No, I remember you know, it was just hilarious. I remember, yeah, I mean I remember being, and I think if you asked anybody, I remember being furious if I was out and always wanting another go. [laughs] So I must have been quite cross then, really, you know, bad loser I’m afraid. I’ve learnt about that and I’m more gracious now I think, but yes I was, I used to get very cross. I remember the temper, I remember being so cross that, throwing the bat down, stomping off. ‘Want another go!’ Shocking really.

Betty Jackson Page 20 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

And how many people would be playing together?

Six or eight, I mean it was never sort of an… it was just something one did really, you know on a nice sunny day. Often we didn’t as well, often we didn’t, but we did do that.

You and your parents, your sister?

Yes.

Who else?

Well there must have been other people. I suppose cousins and uncles and aunts and things like that. There were, my mother’s sister had twin boys. In fact they were all boys, we were girls and then my mother’s brother had three boys, all of whom spanned, they were either younger or older you know, we were all sort of together I suppose. Maybe that’s why we played cricket because they were all boys except Anne and I, I don’t know. But yeah, there were always sort of, there’d be a bunch of us really.

And this is all at your grandparents’?

Mm. All her, I mean there was my aunt who lived near Sheffield did, but the brother, the surviving brother from the war, the youngest one, he lived quite near my grandparents I remember and often we’d combine the two or they would come over or we’d have lunch at my grandparents and then go to them for tea or something. You know, so there was a combination always done because we’d come so far into another county I suppose. We were making the most of it. Or my father would only suffer them all for one day, I don’t know. I don’t know.

And what were your grandparents like?

My grandfather was very tall and thin and my grandmother was quite short and dumpy. But I remember that they cared for each other a lot. They were very, very, very close, very close. Betty Jackson Page 21 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

How d’you know?

I just know. I don’t know why I know, but I just know they were. And good fun, I think. Yeah, good fun. Not really, I didn’t really often get told off there. You know, I remember it being a little bit lighter, or maybe it was just you know because people could relax a little bit more, I don’t know. Maybe it was because we were going out and it was somebody else’s responsibility I don’t know, but I remember it being easy, relaxed.

And what else about them – dark, fair?

My grandfather I only remember him being bald, losing his hair. He had hair sort of round the side of his head. And I remember them always being quite old, you know, the same with my paternal grandmother. They were just old, you know, already. So, even if they weren’t, I have no idea how old they were, but you know, they’re just old people. Grandparents were old. They’re not these days are they?

[laughs]

I remember they always sat together, you know, whenever there was a sort of – I just remember them sitting together, they always sat close together. You know, they’d never, you know other people sit apart or opposite each other, but they, I remember them sitting close together. That’s maybe why I think that they…

At dinner or at…?

No, no, in situations where one would be chatting in the, in the sitting room or wherever it was. You know, they sat together. And I remember they were quite solicitous of each other, you know, he, I don’t know, just get the impression that they were quite close really. Which is nice, nice feeling, nice to see. But I don’t think, I mean I don’t think I knew many people who didn’t do that, so you know, that’s what I mean about it being quite secure and you know, a lot of, quite secure I think probably, the background.

Betty Jackson Page 22 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

Did your mother talk about her childhood to you?

No. There were a lot of them and I think that you know – well, four children – I don’t remember specific conversations about that at all, except I think it was quite carefree. But I don’t know.

So she didn’t reminisce at all?

Well I’m sure she did, but I’m afraid I can’t remember. I’m sure she did, but I really, I have no recollection at all, so it’s pointless.

And how much more d’you remember about – you’ve described the house a little bit – about sort of where it sat and how it was in relation to the houses around and that sort of thing?

Quiet country lane. It was a house on its own, I remember it had a garden gate. You walked up a path, had a garden shed too. I remember bicycles, but I don’t remember quite why I remember bicycles. And it was in a sort of leafy street, I think, probably. Yes.

And the furnishings in the house?

Big dining table. Sofas, chairs.

Old-fashioned?

Oh yes, I’m sure. You know, big comfy, not particularly… carpets with polished floors round the side and the kitchen was stone, big slabs of stone flags, you know. Sort of what I remember really.

And how would you, I mean I know that you’re, you know your grandfather had this – the other grandfather had this terrible accident and went blind and so forth, but the comparison between the two families, I mean would you say they were roughly equal in social terms or what? Betty Jackson Page 23 C1046/10 Tape 1 Side B (part 2)

I think my paternal grandmother would think not. I think she would think that she was rather better stock, but her circumstances I don’t think were as easy. But I honestly don’t remember, there wasn’t anything, I don’t really remember it even being considered. I don’t remember, I don’t remember anything to do with that. It sort of just didn’t figure I’m afraid really. I’m sorry to be so vague.

What’s the first really vivid memory that you have, something that really stands out in your memory?

I don’t know whether there’s one particular thing, really. I remember feelings and I remember, I remember holidays and I remember… but I can’t say, oh that’s the first thing I remember. I remember getting my school uniform, when I passed the Eleven Plus, I remember getting my first bike, I remember my father teaching me to ride it. I remember – which, I must have been about seven I suppose. I remember sitting in front of the fire at, you know, I remember kneeling by the fire of my grandmother’s, I must have been younger. I remember driving to my grandmother’s, which I must have been four or five, but I can’t, I remember falling down and hitting my head, hitting my eye and being rushed to the doctor with blood pouring out. But I must have – and that was at junior school. I remember being knocked over by a bicycle when I was about seven, but I don’t remember anything, you know, the earliest memory, that’s tricky actually. I can’t even go there really, you know there isn’t one thing. Should have thought about it before we began.

[laughs] Well, you’ll have plenty of time to think before our next session. I’m going to stop the tape now because it’s nearly finished anyway.

[End of Tape 1 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 24 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

Tape 2 Side A [part 3]

Twenty-ninth of September 2004 and Betty, if we could start off by just putting names to places and people.

Right.

Start by telling me the name of the place where you were born and where you grew up.

It was a little village up in Lancashire called Bacup, which was part of the Rossendale Valley, which I think is probably the bit that everybody knows, nobody’s ever heard of Bacup. And it was a valley that, Bacup was at the north end and it went through Waterfoot and Rawtenstall, which I think maybe more people know of Rawtenstall now, it’s got on the map. But it’s a very small town, industrial. Not very industrial, a mill town, but rather beautiful, you know there are those old stone mills and then with hills, you know real valley, just hills and moorland. Very near Rochdale, Bury, Bolton, that sort of area.

And your paternal grandmother, whom you talked about quite a bit the last time, what was her name and where did she live?

She was called Emma and she also lived in the same town.

Emma?

Emma Jackson.

And lived in Backup as well?

Bacup!

Bacup. Ooh.

[both laughing] Betty Jackson Page 25 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

And your maternal grandparents – what were their names and where did they live?

They, she was called Phoebe and he was called Edward and my daughter is called Phoebe after her. And they lived in Doncaster, in a little village Bentley, Doncaster, which was in Yorkshire, so – I think we went through this the last time, that my father who was from Lancashire married a woman from Yorkshire which was as bad as me marrying a Frenchman, which is ultimately what I did. But anyway, completely different nationality of course, so you know, it was quite a big thing in those days that he’d gone outside of the town to marry.

And their surname?

Rains. So yes, she was, my mother was Phyllis Gertrude Rains , which she always hated and my grandmother was Phoebe Rains and my grandfather was Edward Rains .

And can you say anything about the various ages, for example, the age differences, if you know them, between the grandparents on both sides. And their ages when your parents were born.

This is all quite blurred. I’m not very good on this sort of history lark. My sister is sort of the journalist in this respect and as I was the youngest sister, I always got all that sort of stuff done for me. I still have difficulty remembering birthdays, even my children’s birthdays, which is rather shocking, but I think it’s a complete weakness I have. I have no idea as to people’s age, I can’t assess people’s age and I always forget dates, it’s really quite shocking. So I’m not very good at this. I just remember, I mean grandparents were always quite old in those days, so I just remember them being really quite elderly. I remember, well my grandfather had died before I was born, my paternal grandfather had died, but I remember my grandmother always seeming quite old, but very active and very busy and not at all infirm. And the same with my maternal grandparents really, they seemed quite old, but I think it was a way of dressing wasn’t it, it was a just fairly recently that people have started to look younger than they are, I think. So, yeah I’m sure they were quite old. And then my maternal grandfather, I remember him dying, but I was still quite young, because I remember going to the funeral and not really being affected by it at all, Betty Jackson Page 26 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3) but everybody else was, you know, sort of, in that distant sort of way it was something that you had to do and everybody was distressed and oh yes, you sort of thought right, okay yes. But you had no concept really of what it was, so I must have been quite young I think.

How young?

I think I must have been about six or seven maybe. Maybe a little bit older than that, or maybe I was just you know, unconsciously the second child and protected from all of this, I don’t know. I seem to live quite a charmed life I think when I was little. So, and then my grandmother, I can’t even remember who died first. I think my mother’s parents died before my father’s parents. Quite shocking isn’t it really how you, I don’t remember anything. I should have actually looked it up or asked somebody.

You commented last time also about your difficulties in remembering things. Why d’you think that is?

I’ve no idea. Always been like that. Either, I don’t know, I mean I don’t know, d’you think there’s a deep psychological reason? I’m obviously far too shallow and stupid. I don’t know, I really don’t know. Either I had a different agenda and it was things that didn’t concern me, or I wasn’t terribly interested in it. I think maybe that was it, or maybe, d’you know I’ve really no idea, but it is quite shocking. I mean as we get further on in my life there’s huge chunks of it that I can’t remember. People will say, oh do you? And I’ve no idea, it’s gone blank.

What are you best at remembering?

I’m best at remembering faces and things and probably visual things. I can remember situations visually, rather than tell you when it occurred. I mean I remember teatimes and I remember - we went through the Sunday lunch bit, didn’t we, last time and I remember visually what that looked like and what it felt like but, visually I remember, but I can’t put it into context.

Can you describe it a bit more, visually? Betty Jackson Page 27 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

Copious amounts of food, lots of jolliness, sort of warm feeling, you know, everybody sat on comfy sofas after quite a formal dining room situation. Just a nice feeling really, I think a nice feeling.

Can you set the scene – who’s sitting where and what are they doing?

Grandpa’s sitting at the head and he’s carving the lamb or whatever it was, my mother and father are sitting next to each other, grandma’s sort of bustling about and we are sort of down one end, probably, and there’s a couple of animals around that are hidden under the table but have to be sent out and stuff like that, you know. And cats and things that aren’t allowed in and they have to be got rid of, but you know, you’re sort of secretly giving… And yeah, that sort of you know, family thing. And there was…

Who’s ‘we’ at the end, at the other end?

My sister and myself. And there was another man who lived with my grandparents, who wasn’t related in any way, I don’t know really, I think he was, I think he used to sort of work in the garden or work, but he always joined us for meals so he was obviously somebody who helped them out in the house or in the garden or something. I can’t even remember what he was called, but he was quite a small, and I remember he always had grease on his hair for Sunday lunch. It was always, he had a very severe parting and it was sort of flattened down to his head and he always rushed up to his room to do it just before lunch. It was very funny, I remember that. But anyway, that’s all really. White tablecloths I remember. Vegetables.

What vegetables.

Carrots mainly. And cabbage, how I hated cabbage, bit of cabbage. Everybody ate cabbage. I think it was, I think that they had, I think that they must have had their own food, I mean grew it in summer, maybe this is what this bloke did. Because you know, everybody got very excited about it for some reason, so I’m sure they had a sort of small Betty Jackson Page 28 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3) allotment or something, I suppose that they brought things in fresh. Because there was always a bit of a fuss about you know, the food that we were eating.

And how does the day proceed – you’re eating lunch and then what?

Well, it’s quite a long way in those days, you know, by car. So it was quite a trip to go to Yorkshire. Afternoons, my sister and I would just play outside in the garden I suppose and everybody else would chat and smoke pipes and cigars and you know, stuff like that. And then we’d leave, then there’d be a tea, and then we’d leave to drive home.

What’s the tea?

Tea is tea and cakes I think. Unless it was winter when it was sort of toast and crumpets and something warm. But winter I remember being, it was always, we were always a bit anxious because there was always fog and bad weather on Glossop Moor and it was really quite a shocking drive I think. I think the roads must have been quite bad then. Now of course there’s a motorway across, so, but I remember it taking a long time. I mean it was a stressful day because it was such a long time to get there. Sounds silly now, doesn’t it? Probably only about fifty miles.

And what are you and your sister playing in the garden?

There was a swing and rounders and things. Oh and then of course we used to go and see, my mother had a sister who lived close by in a little village called Penistone and she had a brother as well, who also lived close by. So, they’d either come across or we’d do a bit of a round trip. And there were cousins as well, all boy cousins. So there was a bit, you know that sort of walking around thing and wondering whether you liked each other or not and you know. So I suppose afternoons were filled with that really.

And did you like each other?

I thought they were terribly exciting because they did much more physical things. And also because of where we lived, it was very different, we had just the moorland behind so Betty Jackson Page 29 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3) we used to sort of walk up on the moorland, but they had, I remember they were by a wood and you know, there was the climbing trees situation and then there was a river at the bottom of the wood and it was all rather sort of dangerous I suppose. But maybe that’s just because it wasn’t my terrain and you felt excited about being somewhere you didn’t know. Dunno. But yeah, I think it probably was exciting. And my uncle who was married to my mother’s sister was a, used to sort of make things out of wood, so he had a little workshop and he used to carve things, you know make silly things really, I think. Can’t remember anything, but I remember the situation that he had and that was also quite exciting you know, you’d sort of, he’d show you what he was doing and everybody got… it was just a hobby.

What sort of things?

Well, there’d be sort of bowls for, salad bowls I suppose or you know, there were sort of useful objects. [laughs] But, another blank there I’m afraid. Just sort of exciting workshop situation, thinking ooh yes, this is a domain that’s not anything to do with me.

And what was the workshop like, can you describe it?

A shed, yeah. It was just a wooden shed. With lots of, oh a sloping roof and lots of windows up in the roof and then a sort of work table and a big table in the middle that he used to sort of sit and decide what he was going to do I suppose. It wasn’t his job though, he must have had another job but I don’t know what he did. He must have had another job, it was just a hobby, this is what he used to do. He had twin boys, I had cousins that were twins. And that was an odd thing, because they weren’t identical twins, but they were very similar. I always thought that was very odd.

Names?

David and Michael.

And his name?

Betty Jackson Page 30 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

Shirtcliffe .

Is that the first or the second name?

Second name.

And his first name?

My uncle? John. John Shirtcliffe . Married Kathleen Rains , she was my mother’s sister.

And what happened to the bowls, the things that he made?

Oh gosh, no idea. I mean presumably they were distributed amongst friends and family, but I’ve no idea, absolutely no idea. Didn’t even, you know, I just remember visually the thing, but I don’t remember anything at all, it obviously didn’t figure. And we’d only visit them, we would visit them sort of once every two months I suppose, so it wasn’t you know, it was a bit of a trip really.

How did you feel about going?

How did I feel about going? I suppose I was a bit pissed off about going really.

Why?

… Maybe that was later, because it you know, it invaded one’s territory a little bit more. I don’t know. That’s the general feeling I have about it. Lovely feeling when you got there and so pleased to see everybody. I don’t know, maybe it was just, don’t know why. That’s a funny thing to say isn’t it? Disturbing my routine, I don’t know. I don’t know why. But no, nice times when we got there, nice times.

Can you say a bit more about what it was that was being disturbed?

Betty Jackson Page 31 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

… No, I can’t. I can’t. Maybe it was such a long way to go, but I’ve never bothered about that since, I rather like going long long distances, but no, maybe it was because my sister didn’t like going and I knew that I should think exactly the same. I did think exactly the same because she was older, you know, for a while.

Why didn’t she like going?

No idea. There are certain things that you don’t ask an older sister when you’re at that age. You know not to. [laughs] So I didn’t.

And why did you think you should think like her?

Because she was older, she looked after me and told me what to do, quite a lot of the time.

Did you talk about the trip that’s to come or on the trip, or anything like that, how did you know that she didn’t like it?

No, no, it would just be you know, oh tomorrow we’re going across, you know. No, I don’t think, it wasn’t sort of like that, we were children, you know, we just sort of got scooped up and taken. You know it wasn’t, no, it wasn’t anything, it wasn’t a group decision. No, not at all.

But how did you know that she didn’t like going?

I suppose, she used to get quite carsick [laughs], which actually ruined the journeys often, you know. That was tricky I think, for her, really. Unpleasant.

And how did she behave then?

What d’you mean?

When she was carsick, I mean, you know, did she actually throw up or…?

Betty Jackson Page 32 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

Oh yes, we often used to have to stop the car, which was a shame really. Horrid. But it was quite a winding road through the mountains of Glossop, so inevitable really. Cars weren’t I suppose as sophisticated as they are now.

Who sat where in the car?

My father drove, my mother sat next to him and Ann and I in the back.

Were you also sick?

Sometimes, but I don’t think as much as she was.

When I say how did she behave – did she get angry, did she get upset, did she, you know?

Oh I think she just felt rotten, really. No, she wasn’t angry at all, no. I think that’s the wrong thing. No, no, no, she just felt terrible. It’s unpleasant to be any sort of seasickness or airsickness or carsickness or anything. You just feel lousy don’t you, you want it to stop. I’m sure that’s what she felt.

And how did your parents respond to that?

With care and attention and patience and regret and you know, as any parent would, I think. Always used to equipped with bags anyway, in case dad didn’t stop the car quickly enough.

Did they give her anything for it?

Drugs? No. No, no, no. We used to have boiled sweets in the car, but they made your tongue sore so, didn’t they? D’you remember?

Pear drops and things?

But they, you know, after three you couldn’t actually suck another one. Betty Jackson Page 33 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

The, your other grandfather, the one who died, your paternal grandfather. I’d like to ask you some more about what you know of him, what you remember if anything…

No, he died before…

I know you were quite, you said you…

No, I think he died before I was born.

So who was the grandfather whose funeral you were recalling?

That was my maternal grandfather.

Right, okay. So what else d’you know of him? You did tell me some things before, about the accident, but only very, very briefly. What else were you told or did you hear about him, what he was like, for example?

Oh I think he was a respected person and I think he was a very patient, kind man. And the other thing that people used to talk about was that he was the only brother and he had these five sisters and they were all quite shockingly bullish, I suppose, but anyway. But I think it made him just much more kind and patient. And after his accident, he went, you know when he was sort of recovering and coming to terms with it I suppose, people remarked at how patient and kind he still was so, I mean that takes some doing really, doesn’t it, so he must have been. And my father was a very gentle man, so I think he’d got that from him really.

How much were you told about the accident?

Very little really. I think also people sort of got on with what they had to do then. You know, it was a terrible tragedy at the time, but it’s one of those sort of things that you get told and it was a fact and it happened and that was it, really. But people used to speak about him very nicely, so I suppose, everybody used to say what a great person he was, so I suppose he must have been. Betty Jackson Page 34 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

Who spoke to you?

Friends of my parents or it’d come up in passing. ‘Oh yes, your grandfather, oh yes, granddad was great, oh yes, but he was such a…’, you know, and just in passing I suppose. Wasn’t anybody really that I sat down and asked questions about it.

Were there any stories about how he was great or expressing his gentleness or any other quality that he had?

Only my, I think he was very kind also to my mother, because she’d come from afar you see, and come to a village that she didn’t know anybody because of my father and I think she always remarked on how kind he was. And also with my sister, I think he was quite patient and you know, even reading children’s books with her, which obviously he couldn’t do then, but you know, going through - I think she remembers sitting with him a lot and him telling stories, him actually telling stories really, when she was very little.

What sort of stories?

Childhood fairytale stories. Stories of things, you know. Stories. The big bear and the little bear, you know that sort of thing. [laughs]

And how, can you say anything more about the impression of how he got on with your grandmother?

Well, after his accident he became entirely dependent on her of course, which completely much have been role reversal. And that’s sort of all I know about that, really. I think they probably cared for each other very much.

Why d’you think that?

Well I think she missed him terribly. I think she always felt you know, that he’d died too soon and they hadn’t had a chance and, you know, that sort of thing really. Betty Jackson Page 35 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

How d’you know that she missed him?

She talked about him. The situation wouldn’t be the same if he were here, sort of thing. That was always a benchmark for her really, I suppose.

Can you construct any more of that conversation – which situation for example?

Just generally life, just being on her own, just living alone. Living alone, which, I’m not sure, well, I don’t know whether she enjoyed it or not, but it wasn’t a situation that was normal for her. She’d also come from a very large family don’t forget, so I suppose that was quite tricky. And most of her friends or her sisters and brothers had partners and I think it’s quite difficult if you haven’t, really.

Did she talk about him specifically in any, you know…?

We’re going back to situations really, aren’t we? [laughs] Which I’m very vague on. Sorry. It’s hopeless isn’t it, really. But I think we won’t get anywhere because I can’t, I honestly can’t remember, so we’d better just, you know, you probably do want more, but I can’t, there’s nothing I can do about it if I can’t remember, unless I make something up, which I’m not going to do.

What happened to the quarry after his accident?

I think we sold it, it was bought. It was still there, I mean you know, but I think there was very much a sort of you know, this is the thing that did this terrible thing to this family, so therefore we certainly didn’t go on day trips to it, you know, and we certainly didn’t go… I mean it must have been a huge, important thing that happened both locally and personally for my family, I suppose, really. I mean changed their fortunes completely.

D’you know how old your father was when his father, well first of all when he was blinded?

Betty Jackson Page 36 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side A (part 3)

I don’t. I don’t even know – well it must, it was before the war, so he must have been quite young, he must have been still at school. Because I think my father joined the army, I suppose at the beginning of the war. My father was born in 1920, so he must have been really quite young I think.

And how old when his father died?

Well, it was before I was born, so I was born in 1949, so my father would be twenty-nine then, so it was before then. So it’s quite young really.

D’you have any sense at all of what effect this had on your father, you know the impact of the accident, his mother’s becoming the breadwinner and so forth, had on your father?

No, because it was all before me, so my father was my father when you know, I was there and I didn’t witness any of the change, so no.

Did he not talk about it at all?

Not really in, only insofar as you know, it was a terrible thing to happen. But then I think also, there was a sort of, not a matter of fact, but I think people really very much actually got on with their lives, d’you know what I mean? They actually dealt with it and got on with what they had to do. I think that that must have been, I think, I mean generally I don’t think life’s very easy really, up there. I mean the weather was terrible in the winter, we were cut off. I remember you know, winters where the snow was extraordinary. And I think just sort of getting on with your daily life was quite hard, really, I think it’s amazingly different now, I think it’s amazing what – if you call it progress – but I think that an awful lot of people had tragedy in their life, especially through the war and all of that and they just got on with it and there was a different attitude to it in those days.

[End of Tape 2 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 37 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4)

Tape 2 Side B [part 4]

…saying about people’s attitudes being different in those days.

Yeah, I think they were. You know, you coped with tragedy and you dealt with it and then you got on with the rest of your life, really. And I think that was very much – I don’t know whether it was just coming from the north or, you know, or coming from particularly strong people, but I really think that that’s what it was.

Can you think who else might exemplify this attitude in your memory?

Well my mother was a very strong person I suppose, or came from the other side of the Pennines, so maybe that doesn’t count, I don’t know. And just generally there was a sort of feeling of strength and I suppose wisdom really. Maybe it was because everybody had faith, I suppose. You know, there was an undercurrent of religion there, I suppose, that gave everybody the solace they required. Because there wasn’t very much else to do. So people used it as a form of socialising as well as underpinning their lives. There was a reason, you know, that all of this happened in those days, which was not questioned, which was accepted.

So who had faith, for example?

Well my grandmother did, she was, being in the church. Consequently we all followed reluctantly behind, I suppose.

We?

The families. My family, my father also was obviously a big part of it. I’m not sure, I never talked really to him about, I think he did believe in God. My mother had a much more sceptical view, but I think that she also, you know when the crunch came I think she did. But my sister is particularly smitten with the whole thing. She’s very, she’s very taken up with it and so is all her family. So, she got that very definitely from where we came from. She, you know she was in the, I mean there were youth groups and there were Betty Jackson Page 38 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4) church things to do and there were dances and there were, you know, there was always something else to celebrate really or have a party about, I suppose. You know, from Whitsuntide through to Christmas, there was a thing to do. So I think that’s probably what it was, it provided a bit of the… society.

And you?

And me, in what respect, me?

Well, as regards the faith, the religion and so on?

Well I wouldn’t say, I mean, that’s what we used to do, we used to go to church every Sunday. That’s what was good about going to see my other grandmother I remember now, because it meant that we didn’t go to church. That was the most exciting bit, I think really. Yeah, I remember that, that was why. Yes church, I think was a dull place really. A dull place, you know. Sitting listening to somebody talking about I don’t know what. Yes, dull. We had, yeah but anyway we used to have to go. It was just what you did.

What was dull about it?

Oh! Just about everything. It was a huge, it was one of those big cavernous sort of churches and for some reason, our pew was on the left-hand side. Everybody else seemed to sit on the middle, but I don’t know, we’d had this pew for generations and so this was the Jackson pew and that’s where we sat. And ugh, it was just grim, it just was interminable really. And I can still recite the catechism, I can still - shocking really, what you remember. But anyway. And I know most hymns that are sung, you know, Radio 4 on Sunday morning. [laughs] The second and the third verses. So that’s rather shocking isn’t it, must have all gone in, you know. But yes, dull sermons about I don’t know what, and then glass of sherry with the vicar in the vicarage and then home for lunch. Ugh, terrible.

Can you say a bit more about what you mean by ‘grim’?

Betty Jackson Page 39 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4)

Just dull. Just dull. I mean just dull, boredom, dull. Dull, dull, dull.

And how did that feeling of yours compare with everyone else’s, or other people’s?

Oh, I’m sure everybody felt it was dull. It depended, I mean there were a series of rectors and then one came who was called Downham and had, suddenly had children and that bit got really quite exciting because we became quite good friends with them and they used to come for supper and we used to go there for supper and it was just a sort of bit of a, you know, because they had children he used to sort of understand how bored children got I suppose. And then there was sort of, you know, I suppose stuff to do for children in the service. Then I think the church maybe had a bit of a wake-up call and decided to try to appeal to a younger generation and so I suppose it got a bit better. I just remember, I remember either it was dull or ghastliness of having to sort of go up to the front for some reason. And I always hated this thing, I always hated it, I never, ever wanted to do it and I always used to sit and think, because I’m in a side pew people won’t, and then they always used to come and say, ‘Come along, come along, come along’ and because I was in this side pew I had to go a different direction. Everybody else sort of went up the middle together, but I had to go all the way round and join them in a different thing and I hated that, I hated being singled out as being stupidly different. I hated the whole thing. Anyway, that was angry wasn’t it, more than dull. Wrong, at the beginning.

And you had to go to the front to do what?

I don’t know, get a candle or a palm cross or a bunch of primroses for Mothering Sunday or, you know, all of those things were done in those days. Well I suppose they still are, I don’t know. But they’re done in a much more relaxed way, aren’t they now?

What sort of a church was it?

Church of England.

Communion?

Betty Jackson Page 40 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4)

Yeah, all of that. Got confirmed, went up, did all of that, yes. It was expected, it followed a path, this is what you did.

Can you remember how far back you had this feeling of you know, how grim it was and so on – from what age?

Five or six. Wriggling around and being told to keep still.

And what about your sister, what was her reaction then?

…I don’t know, I suppose she must have found it dull at the beginning. But there were certain things you know, I mean I think, I mean our family wasn’t particularly disciplined, but there were certain things I suppose, it’s to do with being taught manners, it’s to do with being taught certain situations and you learnt to do it, you learnt how to behave at a table that was acceptable. And it, it wasn’t grand in any way, I don’t mean it like that at all, but there were certain situations that you know, you knew not to speak because adults were speaking and you knew that you had to sit at a table and wait and you knew that you had to sit in this church and wait for the thing to finish you know, because that’s what you did. And it was, I suppose to do, I mean it was just the way we were brought up, really. And it wasn’t, it sounds terrible really, it wasn’t controlled, it wasn’t disciplinarian, but there were just certain things that were done in a certain way and then there were other things that were, I don’t know, I think that my parents couldn’t abide badly behaved children, but I’m sure that doesn’t mean we were well behaved the whole time, because we certainly weren’t, I’m sure.

So how did you know – ‘scuse me just a moment… We were talking about, well can you pick up from where you left off?

About, yeah disciplinarianism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well that’s, I think I’d sort of finished the point really, that I don’t think we behaved particularly badly. It wasn’t that we didn’t particularly behave, but there were certain situations where, and I mean maybe because my sister was three and a half, four years older than me, so that was quite a gap really. So, I suppose I followed her lead for quite a while really, and we were just sort of, I suppose, Betty Jackson Page 41 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4) brought up to do certain things and brought up to respect certain things and so that’s what you did, really.

When you say brought up, how? How were you informed of these things or how did you…?

You know, I don’t know. I think my father was quite quiet and you just sort of knew when he was disappointed, really. My mother was much more volatile and really probably did most of the action really, in that way, but the moment you know, the deed was done or whatever she had to say, it was over and finished with, you know what I mean? There wasn’t ever any bad feeling after. So she was much more, yeah, volatile I think really.

And how was this volatility expressed?

Well she’d shout or she’d send us upstairs or she’d run after us or she’d, you know… Yeah I mean, yeah that was it really. I’m not sure, I’m sure we did get smacked because I think it was before it was politically incorrect, so I’m sure we did. But I don’t, you know, I don’t remember being locked in a cellar or beaten or anything like that. [laughs] But I think it was sort of, you know, instant punishment and then it was finished. That’s what I sort of remember, really. My father would hate to do anything like that. He hated confrontation, he hated. So it was, they’d have a discussion, it was my mother that carried the threat out, really I suppose.

And how did you feel about all that?

Oh, I you know, for me it was normal, for me it was how things were. You know, I think we were both keen not to displease, really. I don’t think we were ready to rock the boat unnecessarily, you know, why? It was nicer not to, I suppose, really.

I’d like to come back later to your childhood and the way that you were brought up and the expectations and so forth, but just going back to this, the religious dimension that we were talking about – did your grandmother, you talked about her faith and everybody’s faith, did your grandmother talk to you about her faith? Betty Jackson Page 42 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4)

No. Not in any sort of intimate way at all. I mean she was outwardly very much a God fearing Christian. That’s it.

How d’you know, or do you know, that she had faith?

Because it was such a huge part of her life. And I don’t think – again I think we’re talking about a different time. I don’t think people questioned, you know, there were, I mean I remember once I had a boyfriend who was Roman Catholic and she went berserk. She went absolutely berserk. She referred to him as a ‘left-footer’. [laughs] But you know, I mean, like I said I think it was a different time. They’d lived through all of that unrest in Europe that you know, in a small town up in the north of England, we’re not talking about them being in London, you know, there was sort of one radio. I can remember we were the first to get a television, and we got a television for the Coronation. But there was not another television for a few miles around. Everybody came to our house to watch the Coronation. So this was an isolated time. D’you know what I mean? It’s really, because I’m sitting here talking about my grandparents, but it is actually, I mean when you think about just you know, the level of communication that’s happened since then. You know, like I said there were three trains a week to Manchester. You know, this village, it was a valley that existed as a valley independently and separately and it interacted with itself, everybody knew everybody and there was a community spirit there that was either good or bad depending on you know, whether you enjoyed it or not or depending on the sort of person you were, but I don’t think we can relate it at all to life in London or even my life now or my children’s life. It’s absolutely completely and utterly different. Their values were different, the way of life was different, it was extraordinarily different.

How aware were you as a child of being, as you say, in an isolated community or of being in a close-knit community or any of those things?

I think it wasn’t until I got a little bit older that I just sort of thought, oh I’ve got to leave here, I’ve got to go, there’s more outside. But up until then, I mean that’s what I mean, it was an easy, it was an easy, comfortable, secure – things didn’t go wrong, you know. That’s how I feel about it. It was really quite a sheltered backwater, probably. I mean, Betty Jackson Page 43 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4) you know, I can’t describe it any other way really. I think there was, my father was a freemason as well, which everybody was of course, and that was a sort of, that also provided you know, this entertainment factor. And plus all of the people that he had been at school with, after the war had come back to live in the same town, which is what they did. And then, you know, got married to their girlfriends who he also knew, so everybody knew everybody, really and that’s the way it was. But it’s completely different from, it was only I suppose in the sixties that people started to open up and go out and move around and you know, I think.

And did any of them ever talk about the nature of the community, did they comment at all, your parents or your grandparents or anybody about any of the things that you’ve talked about now?

I think because my mother, during the war she left her village in Yorkshire and went to work in a, I think it was a munitions factory, she went to be the secretary to the, the PA or whatever it is, the man who ran this factory, and I think she was quite, I think she was one of those people who knew she had to leave and get out and she absolutely loved parties and the social bit and she was very outgoing and you know, she loved dancing and all of that. And I think for her, maybe, there was I think a moment where she didn’t like it being so small-minded, I think she always felt that she was a bit more international I suppose. But maybe that was because she had come from another similar situation that was actually – I mean it was a long time before they accepted people from… you know, it was a very closed community, really. A lot of people had, because she spoke differently, she had a Yorkshire accent not a Lancashire accent, so it was quite…

How did the community she’d grown up in and which you visited compare with the community she and you were living in?

I think it was much more of a town where we were. It seemed to me to be countrified when we went, but I don’t really know, I don’t really remember very much about it, because like I said, we didn’t, you know, we went to visit and that was it. But I think it seemed much more rural where she came from. Although Doncaster’s not very rural, is it? It’s a very pretty area, Yorkshire, Bentley, Sheffield, you know, that sort of area. And I Betty Jackson Page 44 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4) think, I mean the impression I have is that we lived in a town and she came from the countryside.

Did she ever talk about that move and what the move had meant to her?

No, I think she was aware that, for quite a long time she was the outsider, but she made friends very easily. She was a very sociable person.

And the social life that they lived, who else did that involve?

Mainly people that my father had been at school with. So there were three or four of them that were big mates at school. And you know, then during the war they all went off and joined various thingies and then came back and, yeah. There were three or four of them that were very good friends, very good friends indeed. Used to do everything together.

Such as?

Him, or us as families? I mean because then they all had children, we all grew up together. We used to go on holidays together and they used to, well before he married my mother they used to have weekends when they played Monopoly and poker and things like that, but the game would go on for the whole weekend, which sounds very dull doesn’t it, but I think it was exciting then. [laughs] So yeah, there were a few, three or four friends that he… and they became friends, couples, friends as couples, you know they all got on. So it was just, it was good fun. You know, they used to play cards on Saturday, see each other on Saturday evenings, either… I do remember lots of people coming to us, I do remember lots of people, yeah, coming to us for supper and then a game of cards or music or listen to the radio or you know, that sort of thing.

And what would supper be like?

What would supper be like? Well, God. It’s quite hard really. Well I suppose it would be hot. No actually, sometimes cold, sometimes they’d do, you know then there was a sort of big thing about cheese and wine things and my mother got very excited about doing stuff Betty Jackson Page 45 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4) like that, that were just sort of things on trays and my father got bored with it because he said nobody ever ate enough, so that only lasted… but she used to sort of do you know, cheese straws and little sort of things to pick. I think she thought she was being very sophisticated. Anyway, got the thumbs down from dad.

What years would this be?

This would be when I was maybe eleven or twelve, I suppose. So that would be 1959. It was a big, I think there was a big change, because there was sort of music and dancing as well. You know, they’d listen to music and they’d sort of dance and then, and they just loved a bit of a party really, my parents I think.

And when the food was hot, who cooked it?

My mother did. She had somebody who came in and helped sometimes, but no, she was a good cook.

What would a typical supper be for these evenings?

Now you see I’m getting very hazy. I can’t say it, but I’m sure I’ll just make it up. So, because often in those situations you see, we’d have tea and that’d be it. You know we’d then go off with books and be expected to entertain ourselves, so I’m not really sure. I think at that time as well, I mean this was sort of before anybody made you know, spaghetti bolognaise or anything like that. Food was very ordinaire, really, you know what I mean? It was different, wasn’t it, it was sort of, yeah. Shepherd’s pie and you know, a chicken was a big thing because it was different, it was more expensive I think. And lamb and beef were nothing at all, so we had those quite regularly. And then there’d be cakes, you know, she always had a baking day, that then you know, that she’d just sort of, and so these things that then got trotted out. She was brilliant on meringues with fresh cream. Oh! They were absolutely delicious. So it’s all to do with, I suppose a bit party food really, I suppose. Sorry.

Betty Jackson Page 46 C1046/10 Tape 2 Side B (Part 4)

Can you describe one of those evenings, sort of start at the beginning, who comes, what are they wearing, how do they come in, what happens then, as much as you remember.

What were they wearing? I can’t remember at all what the men were wearing. My father used to, all I remember really was grey, I mean everybody just wore shirts and ties the whole time. Grey trousers and used to have a cardigan which he put on, remove his jacket and then have a cardigan. My mother used to buy Jaeger suits, we used to go to Manchester and order her suits for the season at Kendal Mill and she used to have a dressmaker as well that used to make her things, but I think most people did in those days. So I suppose, but she was quite well dressed. I mean she was quite elegant, my mother, really. What were they wearing? The women always wore either a dress or skirt, never, never trousers, it was much later on that people started to wear trousers. And you know, a dress and a cardigan over I suppose, and it was just, it was good fun really. You know, there’d be lots of… and people used to drink spirits so you know, the nearest to wine I suppose, well I don’t think we ever, I don’t think they ever drank wine, because it just wasn’t there. It was miles away from anywhere. So my father used to drink whiskey and my mother used to drink gin and tonic, I think, yeah. I think most people did, or you know, Dubonnet or I don’t know, or sherry or something like that. But, that was it.

[End of Tape 2 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 47 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

Tape 3 Side A [part 5]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson, continuing on the twenty-ninth of September 2004 and this is now tape three. And we were talking about evenings where your parents are hosting their friends and we’re talking about what people were wearing. So, if you’d like to carry on with that.

I remember probably, I remember colour, nobody ever wore black, black was very much relegated to serious, more formal, sad occasions. Nobody ever wore black. And there were always lots of colourful sort of prints as well, but I do remember that people, there was nobody wild. I think already, you know, by the time you were twenty-five you had to look as if you were forty. So I think that that was just a bit of a fashion really and it completely changed in the next five years. So you know, casually relaxed I suppose, print skirts, bell shape skirts women wore.

Gathered, pleated?

Gathered, pleated, yeah. But quite full, because more formal occasions were very much pencil or pleated skirts. I remember the suits that my mother ordered; they were usually pencil or pleated skirts and then, you know in tweed with a small sort of jacket thing. And then evening gowns – I mean people really used to dress up for evening and going out. You know, there were people who would arrive in sort of little stoles and things. It was all rather lovely, with twinkly earrings and things. But that would just be to go and have a game of cards, d’you know what I mean? But I suppose, yeah I suppose because it was sort of the social event, it was you know, whereas we would now be much more relaxed about it I think.

What sort of prints had the skirts?

Big flowers. Blue tulips I remember. My mother very rarely wore print. If she wore print it was always quite small and discreet, which is then nothing to do with how I started my career because, but anyway. But yeah, I remember mainly sort of florals, but not fresh English florals, rather full on, big pattern really, it was in the fifties, you know. Everything Betty Jackson Page 48 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5) was patterned in the fifties; carpets were patterned, wallpaper was patterned, tabletops were patterned, you know everything had a pattern on it really. It was jacquard fabrics, there were tweeds, there were prints going on, all working together during that time I think. And my mother didn’t do any of that, she was much more discreet [laughs] I suppose.

What did you mean just now, you know, that’s nothing to do with the way I started?

Well because, I mean people sort of connect me with bold prints, which is what we started to do when I went, when we started a company on our own. We started to put paintings on to cloth, you know, buying paintings from young artists and putting them on to cloth. And they became very big and bold and I think a lot of people who know any history maybe would connect me with that sort of thing right at the beginning, because it was a bit that nobody else was doing. Now it sounds odd, because of course everybody is doing rather lovely special prints, but then it was quite tricky to do really.

So in what way did that or did that not relate to your memories?

No, I don’t think it related at all. I mean inasmuch as that of course you’re a product of your, of your childhood, but I don’t really remember thinking you know, oh yes, I remember aunt Mary coming in in this. No, it really is nothing to do with that. But I do remember that the women used to dress up. And there were dances and there were, all local, when, and there were parties. A bit later on I remember Christmas when my sister, when I must have been about fifteen, my sister and I used to do, about three or four years running before she went off to university, we did a Christmas party and my parents went off to a hotel in Manchester for an evening – and I don’t know whether it was, I think, I don’t know whether it was Christmas Eve or whether it was New Year’s Eve. No, I think it was New Year’s Eve because my parents used to have, we used to, Christmas was always a big event, but anyway. And I remember always for the dances there would be another dress done or made and the most spectacular you know, strapless ball gowns she used to wear, in sort of duck egg blue satin. And then there was another magnificent one that was in sort of, like a sort of coffee colour skirt and then a lace top. They really were – I mean obviously quite simple – but you know, spectacular, you know, high heel shoes and Betty Jackson Page 49 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5) down she’d come in a strapless dress looking absolutely stunning, really. And people did that, people did that, you know they dressed up to do these occasion things.

What was her figure like?

Oh she had a pretty good figure. Yes, she was tall, about five nine, five ten, great legs, absolutely great legs and she was a very good dancer. Yes, she was a very good dancer. No, she was yes, quite spectacular really, my mother.

And back to the evening, the sociable evening, we were talking about the people who came and we got as far as print skirts and the men in grey.

Yeah. I think the men wore sort of sweaters at that time. It was very much a sort of knitwear thing. There was a sort of big, it’s a bit like, if you can remember, when poor old Roger Moore was a model and he used to be on the [laughing] front of knitting patterns, that’s really what everybody looked like then. You know, they were always either sort of patterned, but the men still had a collar and tie. I don’t think you ever, I think it was very rarely that I saw my father without a collar and tie. I mean even on holiday he’d have a rather formal open neck short sleeve shirt, but that’s as relaxed as he’s got. [laughs] And he never, I mean nobody ever wore jeans, jeans didn’t exist then. You know, they weren’t even around, I don’t think, at all.

So who is actually there, at this evening?

Well there’d be sort of these three blokes that my father went to school with and their wives. So there’d be sort of you know, either six or eight people, maybe.

What tops are the women wearing?

Can’t remember, little cardigans I think. Lots of little cardigans over shoulders and things. And blouses, maybe blouses. Yeah.

Colours? Betty Jackson Page 50 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

Yeah, I remember colours. I remember sort of you know, boat neck colours, little knots at the – rather like it is now, actually. This Thatcher thing that’s going on now, but anyway. Yes, quite prim. Yeah, quite prim.

And what are they like, these friends and their wives?

…Very good fun, interesting, kind, generous, interesting, interested in talking to us as well. No, happy families really I suppose.

In what way are they fun?

Conversation-wise I suppose, conversation. You know, practical jokes. Lots of them were sort of raconteurs if you know what I mean. You know, they’d, one of them was, at the time he was a librarian, in fact he’d be very amused to know that I was doing this, because he became the librarian for the city of Preston and he was Manchester city librarian for a while. He used to visit London often, but anyway. You know, just interesting, just, he used to make up songs all the time, with us all in them. [laughs] And you know, a vague suggestion of rudeness I suppose, but it was all very controlled when you think about it, it was, yeah. But just nice people, really. Lots of laughing I think, lots of…

What sort of songs?

Oh silly rhymes, silly rhymes, yes. Just silly rhymes.

And what were you doing in these things?

Oh you know well, we’d be – but also this group of people we used to go on holiday with as well, so we sort of knew them quite well, so a sort of little circle of people. You know, they were just part of my childhood. They were a big part really.

But you said you would feature in the songs, you’d be…

Betty Jackson Page 51 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

Oh no, yeah, it was sort of a, you know, ‘Oh dear, what can the matter be, three young ladies locked in the lavatory, they were there from Monday to Saturday, nobody knew they were there, the first lady’s name was…’ you know, and then he’d actually insert your name and then you’d wait for him to make the rudest rhyme possible about your name. You know, so it was sort of silly things, but I mean at the time, very simple ways of amusing oneself, really. But I do remember that they were all quite intelligent. There was always, you know, there was always sort of talk of what was going on the world as well, you know. So that was sort of very much part of, you know there was always an awareness of.

Can you remember any of these conversations of what was going on?

No, the only thing I remember, I do remember the Cuban missile crisis, when you know [sound of somebody sneezing] – that was David sneezing – when there was a couple of hours where you know, it was touch and go and I remember, I remember being aware that you know, the world may change forever. And of course it didn’t because it was averted and - well, I suppose it did because you know, but I remember that. And my father was very Tory and used to do quite a lot of work for – shocking now really – but anyway, he used to a lot of work for the Conservative Association, as did my mother, you know. But that’s what you did. So there were lots of sort of social events linked to that too, but I suppose it’s all wrapped up together. There was you know, the Conservative party, there was the Freemasons, there was the Rotary Club, there was the cricket club and everybody was part of the same, you know. I suppose it was quite a safe existence really. Maybe that’s what everybody required after what they’d been through, I don’t know. There was a very feel-good factor in the fifties, I think. You know, when everybody comfortably started families and people had returned. Because one of my mother’s brothers was killed in the war, and so we were sort of aware of that, you know that uncle Walter had died and another couple of my father’s friends, you know, that he used to get upset about. So I suppose, you know that was very real to them, really. So I think that’s also why the life was so simple and probably great. You know, they all thought this is fantastic, there’s a wonderful future ahead and I’m sure that was the feeling then.

And why did you say just now, it was shocking?

Betty Jackson Page 52 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

What was shocking?

You said in connection with you know, he was in the Tory party?

Oh, because it’s shocking to vote Conservative now, I’m not sure he would now actually, I think he’d probably see the light, but he was very much Harold Macmillan. [laughs]

Why is it shocking to vote Conservative now?

Well because they’re not, I mean, but I think Mrs Thatcher changed all of that, but anyway, I’m not sure if I want to take political views, do I? Only in a roundabout sort of way, really, I’m not sure I want it to be the focus, because it’s sort of also, I really would have to close the whole thing off, because I don’t think it’s something that anybody should know, really. I think that really is something personally to me, I’m making a comment about, to set the scene about where I came from, which is you know, obviously that. But now the political situation has changed completely I think and even with rebellion in my youth when I went away to art college and boldly voted against him, I never could quite bring myself to tell him, but then the situation is completely changed, so I wouldn’t really want to upset anybody with that.

Who do you think you might upset?

Well I think he’d be horrified if he was listening to this, you know. I think he’d be horrified about the situation anyway, but I think, you know, about what happened to the Conservatives. But in any case, as far as we were concerned, you know, we were a family of, we were a Tory voting family, with a very secure future ahead, blahdy, blahdy, blah, you know. As lots of people were, during that time.

Maybe we can come back and talk about things a little bit more, but when they talked about things going on, what – you talked about the missile crisis for example – can you remember what was said, how it was discussed?

Betty Jackson Page 53 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

No, I just remember that it was a crisis and everybody was quite concerned about it, but you know, and we sort of imagined. I don’t know what I, I think I imagined if jet fighters came across the sky then I knew that you know, we’d all have to sort of run for cover or something. I don’t know what I, in my head, what I had a reference for. But all I knew is that you know, most people were quite upset about the situation and quite concerned about it.

And what other political discussions, can you, I mean you knew that your parents were Conservative and so forth, what things did they talk about in that context?

I suppose it meant a freer spirit really, I suppose it was you know, a time of enterprise and you know, branching out on one’s own and independence and working hard for you know, just desserts and all of that stuff. So, but I had no conception of the other half either, I had no conception of a Labour voter. I was isolated in my Toryism I’m afraid. So I don’t know. I mean I didn’t, you know, it was just somebody else who voted Labour, but I didn’t know who.

How were these ideas, how did they come to you, is it things that people said or you know, how, this sort of assessment that you’ve just given, how did that come to you?

I think it was just a situation. I’m not sure I was very much aware of it then, maybe it is only on reflection that I am. And you know, when you say that yeah, they were both in this group which was the Conservative Association and I was pressurised to join the Young Conservative group, and when you say that my father was a member of Rotary and he was a Freemason and all of that, it all adds up to one particular picture. And so maybe it is in retrospective, but when I was living in it, it was just the way it was. And you know, there wasn’t anything presented. And also, you know there was no, there was no class barrier. I had nothing to judge it against, I had nothing to be angry or annoyed about, because in this, there was no hierarchy in this village. Everybody knew everybody, whether you were a boilerman in a factory or a you know, the woman who ran the local vegetable shop or somebody who had a market stall, or the hairdresser or the dressmaker, there was no sense of you know, you are better than this person. You know, even in the way you dressed or what you did, you know, there was never, I never remember anybody Betty Jackson Page 54 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5) being separated off as if they were different. I mean when my father ran a factory, I mean I remember often the man who lit the boiler used to come and have a drink with us at home or a glass of beer. And the man who delivered the milk, with a horse and cart, for goodness’ sake, used to come in and you know, and… It was, everybody, you know everybody sort of did their job but there was never any of you know, you are better than me and therefore I have to be, there was no subservience, there was a mutual respect I think. And that’s the one thing, I mean I do remember that, I remember that there was nobody any better than us, but there was nobody any worse off than us either. I don’t remember it ever being, you know, a hierarchy or anything to do with class or anything. Because everybody knew everybody. I mean there was a, one of the main houses in the village, Broadclough Hall, but we used to go there all the time, you know, for either tea or lunch or my parents were friends with them and they used to come to us and you know, the same with the vicar and the doctor and the bank manager, you know, they were all friends of… But I don’t remember, oh my goodness, you know, he’s the bank manager, because it was uncle Ernest who was bank manager, d’you know what I mean? Who also went to school with my father. You know, so there was none of that, so I think that’s what I mean about that whole thing, it was a very different set up than it is now. There were certainly, I mean there must have been millions of people walking about in clogs and flat caps, but I do not have the impression that this was a working man and because my father wore a collar and tie, he was something different. I do not have any concept of that at all, because they used to be friends and they used to walk down the street together, or go in the car together, or you know, go to the pub together or, d’you know what I mean?

Who were the people at Broadclough Hall?

Can’t remember their names now. Sorry.

I mean, now with your hindsight, socially, what would they have been?

Oh she was called Annie, actually, yes I do remember. And they used to, I do remember they used to winter in Barbados because she was always very brown and she used to wear her hair in a, greased back in tiny little bun, grey hair, but absolutely, completely you know, perfect. And I can’t remember what he – he did used to wear a flat cap, you see. Betty Jackson Page 55 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

He used to wear a flat cap and a yellow waistcoat. Annie and, gosh, I can’t remember what he was called. They were very courteous, but everybody spoke the same language, you know. Everybody, there wasn’t, I mean they did have a very beautiful house with a big sort of estate, it was lovely. But so what? You know, it was not, you know it wasn’t to think, ooh we’re going up to… there was never anything like that at all, it was just the same people, really.

How did their house compare with yours?

Bigger and rather sort of darker and dustier. No, not dusty, but the impression was darker and heavier. Can’t even remember, don’t think they had any children. Can’t remember whether they did or not, unless they were already grown up. Maybe they were.

And this circle of friends who came to your house on this evening, an evening or evenings for cards and whatever, were they always the same people?

More or less. There was a circle of maybe twelve or fourteen and they used to sort of rotate or they used to – yeah, more or less. I mean yeah, I think that’s quite normal really.

And what did they do for a living, for example? What else can you tell me about them?

Well, Alan Longworth was the librarian. Jack Bridge was a headmaster. Ellis was the, Ellis Brooks was the bank manager, Charles Grey was the doctor. Who else? Harold Bottomley had a wholesalers of groceries, he used to wholesale to shops and things, so I mean he was a sort of businessman I suppose. And who else? Joss McNulty was an accountant. I can’t remember anybody else now. Yes, so that’s what they did.

Did any of the wives work at all?

A couple – no, well my mother didn’t. Alan Longworth’s wife didn’t. Jack Bridge’s wife, Ada, was a secretary, but a part-time secretary and you gave it up instantly of course, the moment you started to have children in those days, because I suppose there wasn’t the care Betty Jackson Page 56 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5) unless you had extended family care. But no, most of the women didn’t work. It’s strange.

And when they came to you, where were their children?

That I don’t know, they must have actually gone to their grandparents or yeah, just had babysitting things. A couple of times they came and we’d all sort of you know, go to bed together or something and then be scooped up and put in cars I suppose, again. But no, there were very rarely children with, on the evenings. Yeah, very rarely children. We saw children during the day, but evenings were very much to do with adult life.

And how well did you know the children from these families?

Oh very well.

What were they like?

Same as us really. Differing in age for about sort of four or five years I suppose, either way. I think my sister was the eldest, because there was a time where she always brought a friend on holiday, because she was bored with us young ones annoying her. And yeah, no, no, they were sort of really like, you know, brothers and sisters I suppose.

What did you, when you were with them, what did you do together?

Played games, painted pictures, yeah.

What sort of games?

Cowboys and Indians. Used to play that a lot. Bizarre isn’t it? We probably, I mean I think at that time, you know, children’s television started as well. Gosh, it’s really sounding like the Middle Ages – so we sort of used to re-enact Champion the Wonder Horse and things like that. [laughs]

Betty Jackson Page 57 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side A (part 5)

[End of Tape 3 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 58 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6)

Tape 3 Side B [part 6]

We were talking just now about the games that you played with these other children and d’you want to add any more?

And yeah, we were great board game players as well, so there was a lot of that. I mean it was simple amusement, but I think because you know, television lasted – it actually went off at nine o’clock or something, well I mean I think children’s television lasted till six or something. I don’t know, I can’t remember. There was very little of it really, so one was obliged to. So you know we used to play, yeah board games. As a family we used to play board games as well I remember. As a family we played cards, as a family we did crosswords and puzzles and jigsaws and all of that sort of stuff and I think it was a sort of an extension of that. Depending on you know, whether we were noisy or quiet, you know.

What sort of puzzles and jigsaws and games?

Monopoly, ludo, Risk, Cluedo – all of those ones. We progressed beyond snakes and ladders, I think. And then, and card games as well. And then I suppose as we got older we just started listening to The Beatles really, when they happened big time and so you know, everything stopped when that happened. But if you’re going back, I mean I remember earlier, earlier, earlier, you know, sort of having rowdy games of rounders and cricket and you know, all those sort of ballgame things.

When you played cowboys and Indians, who were you?

I think I was never happy with who I was. I always rather fancied shooting a bow and arrow, but I think I was always a cowboy, I don’t know why. I think I longed to be an Indian because I think they were much more romantic. I think I was always – don’t forget I was younger, so you know often I was not in control of these games, I had to you know, there was a sort of – I said there was no hierarchy before, but there was very definitely [laughing] a hierarchy with you know, the kids really. I remember being a soppy cowboy. Hopeless. Hopeless.

Betty Jackson Page 59 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6)

Who were the Indians?

Well the boys were the Indians, I mean John Longworth was an Indian, definitely. His sister Ann was always the person that had to be rescued because she was too young and silly and couldn’t do anything, she cried a lot. And Gareth Bragel , was he, he was a bit young. Janice was always a bit superior, often would say, ‘No I’m not doing that, don’t want to play’. She’s now a headmistress, so that’s probably why. But yeah, no it was… Then board games were… yeah, we used to play Monopoly a lot. I remember I used to scream if I didn’t win. I was a very, very, very bad loser. Very bad loser, very competitive, shocking. And otherwise we’d paint. And John was colour blind and I remember we would, my mother telling me that we hadn’t to paint together and if we did I was never to criticise his paintings. And I remember really vividly he painted a horse green. And I said, ‘Oh you’re really stupid because horses are never green’ and he didn’t know it was green, he couldn’t tell the difference. And I got so told off about that. [laughs] And I didn’t really, and she just explained that he couldn’t tell the colours, but he was really upset and he was never, ever, ever – this was when we were seven and eight, you know, for goodness’ sake.

So who told you off?

My mother.

And how did she know that you had said this?

Because I think I came and said, ‘Oh ho, you know what? John’s painted his horse green, how stupid’, you know, ‘Look, look everybody’, you know. Or something like that. And he probably cried. [laughs] I don’t know. I don’t know, but it was a big picture, I can see the picture now, it was a big picture that he had painted green and he’d painted the hooves red and he didn’t know. I mean but, why can’t you paint a horse green? I think I was the stupid one, really. Why can’t you paint a horse green? You know, why had I said you know, horses are never green? Maybe there is a green horse somewhere. It was really bad of me, actually. So anyway, and then you know, I didn’t absolutely understand what colour blindness was, but he was. I think he still is. He had a problem with traffic lights I Betty Jackson Page 60 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6) remember, when he learnt to drive. Could see that they were on, but he couldn’t tell the difference between red and green, that was the same.

And when you played things like cowboys and Indians, who decided who did what?

Oh I think it just evolved. And then we’ll do this and then we’ll do this, and then, I’ll tie you to that tree and then, you know, and then, you know like children’s games do, really. There’s never, it just goes on and on until somebody’s bored and goes off the whole thing really, or another opportunity comes up, doesn’t it really? I’m sure that was the situation. But behind, I mean this is another thing that’s extraordinary, we had so much freedom you know, as well, because you know, we used to, I mean I remember in holidays, you know we used to go off for the whole day – this wasn’t necessarily with these people, but with school friends and you know, and neighbours’ friends and things – but we used to go off for a whole morning and never have thought if there was any danger and we were on moorland and you know, fields that rose up and you know, quite a way. I mean it was away from, this was where we played our games, you know what I mean. We used to walk and run for miles I think, really. And never any question of there being any concern about you know, where we were or what we were doing. I remember there was this huge freedom which probably isn’t now, which is a shame. So there was lots of outdoor activities.

How big was the group?

The friends of my parents or…?

Your friends, your circle.

Maybe four or five. Then it changed, you know.

You and John.

Well that was different because we didn’t, they didn’t live in the town, they had moved to near Manchester because of Alan being a librarian in Manchester. So that was also very Betty Jackson Page 61 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6) exotic of course, because they came from another town, but it meant that we did see them often at weekends, but there was another group of friends, I had school friends obviously, that were much more to do with every day or weekly or, you know. Yeah.

And who were they?

And they were… Beverley Brown . There was another girl called Susan and there was another girl called Christine. And there was one boy called David. And then maybe the odd younger brother and sister that they had to drag along really.

And how were their ages compared to yours?

Well, Beverley , Christine and I were all in the same class at school, so we must have been the same age. David also. And then there were various sort of other younger folk taggling along, really. Christine had a brother called David who was younger. And Beverley was an only child and Susan had an older sister. Maybe there was only David, I sort of remember… and there was another couple, Susan and Frances that were slightly younger that weren’t always allowed to come out with us.

What were they like?

What were they like? Well I thought they were wonderful. My best friend was Beverley Brown and we sat, when we sat our Eleven Plus I passed and she didn’t and this was the biggest tragedy to hit me because she had to go to the secondary modern school and I went to the grammar school and this was really terrible, because we just didn’t see each other again. Because that’s where there was a huge divide, a huge divide, which was shocking really, because there was no reason why she shouldn’t go to the same, or I shouldn’t have gone to her school. But suddenly there was a, I want to say decollage, you know what I mean? There was a sort of difference. Terrible. I hate that. I hate that now more than anything. But anyway.

Why d’you think that you passed and she didn’t?

Betty Jackson Page 62 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6)

Because I could always just walk in and do an exam. I found it very easy. I could always do tests, I could always just learn things, parrot fashion in that stupid way that was required and never, ever had a problem. I was quick at mathematics, I was you know, just quick really. I dunno. She was, you know, she wasn’t, I think it was just a silly thing really, I don’t know why. I’ve no idea where she is or what she’s doing now, but anyway. If you listen to this Beverley , I was very upset. [laughs] And we did vow to you know, keep seeing each other, but within a very short space of time it was apparent that we absolutely couldn’t. Shocking really. You’re taught to do that at such, at eleven, really, it’s really stupid, you know.

What had made her your best friend, why was she your best friend?

Erm, how d’you define a best friend? I don’t know. Somebody that you went around with, somebody that you talked with, somebody that you had an affinity with. I think that’s quite difficult to put your finger on really. You know, there’s some people that it’s just easy to be close to and that’s who it was, really. Somebody that you share things with, somebody that you… I dunno, I dunno when you’re small as well, but she definitely was, we were very definitely… we used to sit together and you know.

From what age?

From probably five or six, during primary school.

And what d’you remember of her?

I remember she had wonderful long, curly hair. And I always had my hair cut short, rather short like a sort of bob, horrible. I absolutely hated it. With a fringe cut up here, or a grip in it. It was just so shocking, and I always so wanted, and Beverley had long, naturally curly, golden hair that she had a ribbon in it and I just was so of her hair. And she was taller than me and she was very good at games. Mind you I, I suppose I… well anyway. She was just a sort of you know, one of those sort of you know, gorgeous girls really. A thing of beauty in my life.

Betty Jackson Page 63 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6)

And what was she like as a person?

Oh jolly I think. Yeah, jolly. And yeah, we used to go, we used to go round together. Just you know, meet up at school and spend the day joined at the hip I suppose, really.

Doing what?

Just walking around talking, like girls do, you know. And sitting next to each other and talking more about, I don’t know what. Absolutely no recollection, but I do remember being with her a lot of the time.

What was her background?

Can’t remember anything at all about her parents, but she lived in a slightly smaller house, but it was about half a mile away. We used to walk home from school. Her house was before mine, so we used to, my mother used to come and get me, I think. We used to drop Beverley off and continue on our way. But I’ve no idea about what her parents did.

They weren’t friends of yours?

No, not at all. That’s what I mean about it being a very separate thing. You know, there were children who belonged to friends of my parents who were one area, but then there were school friends that were another area that didn’t really socialise with my parents at all. I don’t know why that was, maybe they didn’t like them, I dunno.

And can you remember how Beverley reacted when she didn’t pass the Eleven Plus?

Yeah, she was, well I was just horror stricken and she was well, it doesn’t matter, you know and I didn’t want to go anyway sort of thing. And me saying, well it doesn’t matter anyway, and I’m not going then, I’m going to your school instead [laughs] and all of that. But yeah, and then very quickly a chip on the shoulder started, you know, very, very quickly. You know, wouldn’t, obviously made her own circle of friends and you know, very quickly I had to make mine. Betty Jackson Page 64 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6)

Where was the chip? Whose shoulder?

I think maybe hers. It was an odd thing. The secondary modern school, the grammar school was very old and used to be a direct grant school and that’s the school that my father went to, but in his time you had to pay for it. And it was always – I don’t know whether it started off as a boys’ school, it was a co-educational school when my father went and then there were moves afoot to make it into a direct grant when all of that stuff happened. The secondary modern school was a modern building – my school was a very old, you know, dark, stone-built thing, on a hill – and the secondary modern school was modern and fabulous. I mean just fantastic, with you know, a science block and a chemistry wing and playing fields outside, whereas we had to walk, because the valley ran from one end to another, our school was on one side of the hill, the playing fields, the hockey field was on the other side of the hill, so we had to sort of walk in a line all the way down from school, cross the main road – well, little road it was then – and then walk all the way up. And you could see the school and it was sort of like a ravine, really, that separated the… anyway. And it was all sort of old and they’d sort of got, it had gradually developed, as of course it got bigger and bigger – when my father went there were only a hundred and fifty pupils I think, altogether. Well, there were a hundred and fifty in the sixth form when I was there, so it’s still a little school; six hundred, maybe eight hundred pupils altogether, but everybody was incredibly, it was a bit of a sort of reverse snobbery because Fearns, that’s what the comprehensive school was called, was so fabulously equipped that you know, we were all quite jealous really of not being able to go there. But it was kept so separate, you know, there were the achievers who went here and the non- achievers who, by way of compensation, had the better equipment, which is odd when you think about it. And they were quite close together, so there was you know, huge rivalry as well, you know and all of that stuff that went on. If you got on the wrong school bus for example, you just got massacred, you know what I mean, I mean your stuff would be thrown out the window, you know, and it was like that. But I remember it was quite shocking the way it… and I think maybe, I don’t know, I didn’t ever want to be in the group that was out I think, didn’t ever want to be… I made up my mind when I got to the grammar school that all I had to do was just pass all the exams and it would be fine and I made my mind up that that’s what I had to do and I did it. And it was just a decision I Betty Jackson Page 65 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6) made when I went. I didn’t want to be a non-achiever in that school, I think it was pretty grim if you were, so I just decided I wasn’t gonna be. I remember that.

Who were the non-achievers?

Well it was a streamed class system, you know, there was sort of A and B. And I remember being absolutely furious in the first year that I was in a B. But of course they’d streamed us alphabetically in fact, for the first year, because they didn’t know. But after the second term we were all shuffled around and I was in the A stream immediately. I knew I would be, I knew. And sort of, it was a, I suppose you know the emphasis was on high achievement, the emphasis was on results, really, I suppose. I remember being hopeless at history until I made my mind up that I, there was this one girl that used to get fantastic results always and I just made my mind up that I’d just beat her one day. Not one day, you know I mean I just made my mind up and it was a casual decision that I made, but I did it just by force of will I think, really, which is odd, but I remember doing it. And she was completely [laughing] shocked. But yeah, I beat her in the… and it was one of the things I was thrilled about. Shocking isn’t it, it’s terrible. There, this horrible character’s forming now you see, now we’re on to it. [laughs]

How could you just beat her? How?

By making a little bit of an effort. I’m quite lazy really, unless I’m given a challenge and she was my challenge.

But what did you do?

A little bit more effort and that was all.

What sort of effort?

Learnt things. Learnt also that it was quite important, your deportment, the way you behaved around the staff, you know. If you were, you know they’re just tricks that you learnt, if you seem to be interested, you ask the right questions, it’s such an easy thing to Betty Jackson Page 66 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6) learn. That’s what I did. I observed why she was a success and then I just went and did it. It’s really horrible, actually. Not something, well it’s not something I’m proud of.

[both talking together]

So what…?

Sorry, no please.

What did she do that you observed and were able to copy?

She, the way she reacted in a classroom situation, the way she was favoured by the staff, the way she… I mean she was quite bright. I think she did go to Oxbridge eventually. She was quite a bright girl, but I was just annoyed I think that she always came top. So I determined to be the next one to do it.

So what did you observe her do in a classroom situation?

Be active I think, be a bit more proactive, whereas I used to sit at the back and talk about boys probably, by then, grammar school situation. And it just needed such a little adjustment on my part, it was amazing, everything fell into place. Shocking. And once I’d beaten her a couple of times, I got bored with that so went back to sitting at the back talking about boys. Shocking.

So you beat her, how?

Just by getting better marks in, you know, weekly tests, weekly results. Just by applying myself to the essay writing, just by doing a bit more work.

And what were the marks given for?

Like I said, tests and essays and you know, stupid knowledge. You know, parrot fashion knowledge, really. Not even, you know, this was twelve and thirteen so it wasn’t even as Betty Jackson Page 67 C1046/10 Tape 3 Side B (part 6) if you had to have an opinion about you know, Napoleon’s domestic policy, you just had to write it out, that was all.

But how did being proactive in a classroom situation help the marks?

I think I thought that if you were noticed – these were quite small classes as well, maybe twenty, twenty-four people max – so I think if you impressed the person that you were, who was in charge by being, then you know, there was definitely a situation. They got your paper in front of you, oh yes, this person knows what she’s talking about because yes, I remember. And I remember just making people notice. You know, all you had to do was make people notice by asking a question or you know, being a bit more visible. I think that was it. Be a bit more visible.

And do you have any, can you connect that to anything – I don’t want to talk too much about your later life till we get to it, as it were, but can you connect it to anything in later life, that experience?

The bit about, I mean the bit about wanting to do something, yeah. I think I had that a lot when we started. I just thought I can do this. I think in the same way as when I was going to beat Elizabeth Holt, I never thought that I wouldn’t be able to do it. And I don’t mean that in an arrogant way, it was factual. I knew that if I actually, you know, just actually did a little bit of a thing, I would actually knock her sideways. And so that’s what I did. But it was merely factual, a fact, once I had done it and she knew I could do it, the threat was there and I was bored with it. I didn’t ever want to do it again, I didn’t ever want to constantly you know, be top dog or anything, I just knew I could do it. And then when, you know, when we started off, I mean there was never any thought that – because when we started the company, David and myself, we started in the middle of a terrible recession in 1980 and everybody said you’re completely mad, don’t do it. But there was never any thought that we wouldn’t do it, in the same way I was sure, it was a fact, we were going to do this. And that’s the most I can relate to it. There was never any doubt, there was never any ah! What if that and what if, you know, in the same, it was very clear to me, you know, what I had to do, and so I just did it. [End of Tape 3 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 68 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7)

Tape 4 Side A [part 7]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson and it is Wednesday the twentieth of October 2004 and we are now starting tape four. Now Betty, we ended the last session talking about your determination to succeed and beating Elizabeth Holt, I think it was, in school and I just wondered if you could say a little bit more about that will and also how that then related to your starting up your business many years later and whether you could say a bit more about where that determination comes from and how it, you know, your earliest memories of that sort of approach and whether you know, there are any influences that led up to it, that sort of thing?

It’s quite difficult to say where it comes from and why it happens. I think partly it came from, must be in the genes at some point and partly it came from a family background and the situation that was there at home, I suppose. I have no real idea, except I suppose I had quite a difficult childhood, physically I suppose, because of my situation and so maybe that also bred a bit of determination because I was a bit different from everybody else, really.

Can you tell me about that?

Well, it obviously started when I was born, because I was a breach born baby, I mean it was quite a sort of, it was a bit touch and go really I think, and I was sort of dragged out of my poor mother by my left leg and the person in charge in fact dislocated my hip when they did that. And consequently I was in hospital having a dislocated hip repaired from you know, from the moment I was born, strung up with my feet to the ceiling. It all sounds very prehistoric and I’m sure it was in those days, they probably have better methods now. And I was in a plaster cast until I was about seven months old I think. And they repaired the hip, but the left leg never grew from that moment, well it did grow, but it didn’t keep pace with the other one, which they say was as a result of the trouble at birth. So then I was you know, obviously I suppose, yes you’d consider me a disabled child, although I don’t think I did really think of myself as a disabled child. Anyway, when I was young of course, I had this left leg that was shorter than the other, but as I grew it became apparent that it really, really, nothing was going to happen. So my parents took a very brave decision, I think, to have the left leg amputated. And that was quite hard I think for them, Betty Jackson Page 69 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7) because there was nothing wrong with it, it just didn’t keep pace with the other one and they thought it was because a nerve had been severed at the hip, but I don’t know whether there was the technology to find out, really. [laughing] My father always says if you were born in America, we’d have sued the hospital and we’d have been very rich as a result of it. But of course, in a small Lancashire town you didn’t do that sort of thing. So anyway, when I was six I had, I mean I remember vaguely going to see, well I remember quite clearly the sensation of going to see an awful lot of doctors and they took an awful lot of advice. And when they decided, I mean I sort of remember coming out of hospital and having some very nice surgeons and very nice specialists, but my mother always being distressed about it. And my father being you know, a little bit calmer. Anyway, I went into this thing when I was six, thrilled about the whole thing, because for me I was going to have two legs the same, which I had never had. Not that it affected anything, not that it affected my life, because there was nothing wrong with the leg, so I had to have a support on it and that was all. So I ran about and played games and nobody ever treated me any differently, at least not in my head and certainly not as far as my family were concerned. Except from then on of course I must have taken up quite a lot of time, quite a lot of their time, I mean as things do if you have anything that’s a problem or requires hospitalisation. And we were in the Middle Ages, I mean so transport and you know, getting places was really quite difficult. So anyway, I went into Pendlebury Children’s Hospital, which is just on the outskirts of Manchester, which I think I’ve said before in another tape was practically half a day’s trip to get there, and anyway, that’s when it happened. So they amputated the left leg and I mean I really can’t remember the timescale, but you know, there was a lot of fuss and I was made to feel very important, and came home, and then visited a little centre in Old Trafford. Now the thing is, this was before thalidomide, so it was quite rare to have somebody of my age, you know either people were result of an accident or, so I think I probably was spoilt to death by everybody there. I must have been quite precocious and I must have also been, you know, I think that I never had a problem of articulation, although I am sometimes stammering on these tapes [laughs], but I haven’t, so I’m sure that that came from those times, having to express what I felt to relative strangers and having to, and realising very, very early on that it was far better to work with people on your side than antagonise them, because you got what you wanted more easily. And I think that that’s a philosophy that’s carried through. I don’t like confrontation, although I am apparently quite frightening when that happens and you know, I can take it Betty Jackson Page 70 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7) on, but just easier to look at problems from lots of different sides. However, anyway, cut a long story short, we’ll just deal with this problem. I think probably the determination came from, not just me by any means, but certainly the feeling I had of family and friends around me. They made absolutely no concessions at all, to this. It was business as usual. You know, I used to obviously fall over quite a lot, I mean because I had an artificial leg fitted and had to go, because of course your rate of growth is quite fast in those days, so I had to go back quite often, but I honestly can say it was a childhood of incredible sort of freedom and love. I mean I rode horses, I rode a bicycle, I had a horse that was looked after by a riding stables close by and I went every weekend and you know, and because I had a functioning leg and I had my own knee, which obviously makes an awful lot of difference. Then of course the thing was made hugely – I walk without a walking stick and I did most things and I could run and dance and I played rounders in the school rounders team and I played netball and all of that stuff, it just really didn’t affect anything, until I had this car accident, which is why most people refer to this car accident as being the thing which, when I lost my leg, which is absolutely not true. I’ve no idea when this sort of myth arose either, because I remember saying to some journalist and them actually saying oh, but it’s not half as good a story, so it’s sort of been a bit of an easy way out really. People have always said, oh because of a car accident, she’s you know, walks this way, and the car accident completely messed the whole thing up and I had to have the thing re-amputated and I’ve really lost the use of most of it now, which is why I walk so badly and why I walk with a stick and why you know, now I can’t ride a horse and I can’t ride a bicycle and it completely messed everything up really. And was the start of me really feeling right, you know this is gonna be a bit tricky now. Up until that moment, I you know, I went to school, as I said, played games, I did everything that all my friends did, you know. I had loads of boyfriends, I went to college, you know, I lived on my own, I travelled to New York, I travelled round Europe with a backpack with my friends. I mean I did all the normal things that teenagers do, so it was pretty dramatic when the car accident happened in 1971 and it sort of stopped me in my tracks, really. So, that’s the story of the determination I think, obviously I was different from other children, although like I said, I mean I remember I used to fall over all the time and my mother never, I mean she always said she used to sort of, you know, it was an instinct to actually rush to help, but she steeled herself and said, you know, get up darling, you’re absolutely fine, and of course I was. And I honestly think it’s due to their completely sensible and you know, Betty Jackson Page 71 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7) always loving attitude, which sort of formed my attitude, my way of dealing with it. I don’t think I met any sort of, how can I say, prejudice against it until after the accident, until I was much more affected physically by it. And now of course I’m very old, people try and help me across the street, which is quite annoying. [laughs] But, so I think a determination in spite of, it was never the biggest thing in my life, but having said that, I’m sure psychologically I have always compensated for you know, the fact that oh, there is this difference. Let’s get over that quickly, because I’m much more interesting than this difference is and I’m sure that that first, that was actually caused by the attitude of my parents to a huge degree.

How did the accident happen?

I drove a car into a tree, the steering went on my car and it sort of veered into the gutter on a lane in Birmingham and it was a tree lined route and I hit the tree at about thirty miles an hour.

Where were you going, what were the circumstances?

I was going very early morning to take a friend of mine to the station to come back to London and that was about seven thirty in the morning, so I was completely, you know, there was nothing I could do, the steering just went and we hit a tree, full force. I remember it quite clearly.

Can you remember the moment at which you realised the steering had gone?

No, I don’t remember that, I remember the car shuddering and I remember the impact and I remember the next moment seeing everything from upside down because I was sort of hanging out of the driver’s door and I remember seeing a small green car on the opposite side of the car and this man running and wondering why he was upside down, but he wasn’t of course, I was. And I remember saying, ‘I’m fine, I’m fine, I’m fine’, but of course I wasn’t and yeah.

And when did you realise that you weren’t fine? Betty Jackson Page 72 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7)

Oh fairly quickly, I couldn’t, I just couldn’t move. There was an intense pain and then none at all, you know. And then ambulances came and took us off.

And how is it that it was the same leg?

Yes, it’s bizarre isn’t it? [laughs] I don’t know why it is. I hit the tree on the nearside, I didn’t cross the road, it was on my side, you know, the steering of the car went and so I veered off to the left into this tree, so the impact was mostly on the left side. The friend who was with me was very, very badly injured, he had a head injury and was in a coma for six to eight months and then you know, was a bad head injury. He recovered most of his faculties, but really not all, so it was sort of a huge tragic occurrence when it happened. I mean I was fine, it just affected you know, from my waist down, it broke my pelvis and it smashed up, anyway, so that’s what happened.

And this steering business, how could that happen?

Well, I suppose you know, this was all before MOTs and goodness knows what and you know, like a lot of students I had a battered up old car that I used to sort of drive rather recklessly around the countryside. And, I don’t know, I remember the police coming to interview me because there was a sort of, there was a question whether or not it was dangerous driving or you know, anyway and they inspected the car which was a complete mess. The tree was quite badly damaged too. And no charges were pressed and that was the result. And I suppose, I mean everybody was you know, spared me from the gory details I suppose really, because I was in hospital for quite a long time after that, so you know, everybody dealt with everything. I mean you know, my parents came down and friends rallied round and blah-dy blah, so I suppose it wasn’t really my concern, it was more to do with surviving, I suppose, rather than anything else.

Surviving?

Yeah there you go, there’s a word. [laughs] Yeah. Well you do, don’t you.

Betty Jackson Page 73 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7)

D’you mean mentally surviving, physically?

Oh, all of it I think. When something like that happens, it really does, you know it’s a hard lesson really. It’s a period that you learn from. And also it’s an enforced period, nothing you can do about a situation, you know, it happened. I mean I wish I could rewind the clock and it never have happened, but it did and, so that’s it really. I mean you just get on with it. I don’t think, I mean I suppose in a way, because of how I was physically, you know, everybody breathed a sigh of relief that that was all it was, you know, and everybody breathed a sigh of relief that you know, I could in fact still have a possibility of walking and still – it sounds all very tragic, but you know, it happens all the time, it’s, we’re not the only ones that have this and either you, you know there’s obviously a period where you have to get over the shock and you have to deal with it in your own way, but I just think, I do think I’ve almost been groomed for something, although I don’t really believe in all of that. But I was sort of equipped to deal with it I suppose, on many levels really.

How?

Just by being prepared for, you know, because I was slightly different and I knew that, even though everybody was, you know, I knew I had to be. I mean it’s partly going back to the Elizabeth Holt thing, I suppose, you know, I could sort of do anything because obviously my parents had that attitude, and so I knew I could do it if I put my mind to it and that’s what happened after the accident really. I mean anything that I was in control of, ie my situation, I could do something about.

So the accident happened and you quickly realised something was very wrong, what happened then?

Are you talking about the morning of the accident?

Yes, yes.

Well, this upside down man came running across. Betty Jackson Page 74 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7)

Where exactly were you?

I was - the situation – Birmingham…

On a country road?

Yeah, yeah, in a little, sort of outskirts of Birmingham called Moseley and it was a road. Anyway, going into Birmingham New Street Station. And yes it was quite a small road, a sort of back, little leafy track - not track, road – but you know, tree-lined sort of road. And I don’t know, next thing I knew I was being cut out really, of the car and put in an ambulance.

Cut out?

Yeah, well they had to, I mean I was sort of jammed in the front, the steering wheel had trapped me because the whole of the front of the car – I mean it was quite a mature tree, if it had been a smaller tree I think, but it was a mature tree, so the whole of the front of this car had come into the front seat, if you like, so it was quite difficult to get me out I think, anyway, they did. And then…

That was the fire and rescue service?

I’ve no idea. Somebody called somebody and people arrived and I went in an ambulance with the siren going to Birmingham Accident Hospital and I remember them cutting my clothes off and then I remember waking up and they’d sort of done one operation, but by this time we – no, not by this time – and then I was in intensive care for a while and I remember my parents arriving and then it just being a hospital situation. But the thing was that I was familiar with this sort of thing really, I’d already had many operations, so I don’t find it frightening. I loathe and hate it, but I don’t find it frightening, so I wasn’t frightened, but I was just wired up to machines and things. But I came out of intensive care within a couple of days and you know, and then they had to do another couple of – they got it wrong, I remember the consultant was very sweet and they got it wrong and had Betty Jackson Page 75 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7) to do it again. So anyway. [laughs] I don’t know quite why. They put a metal plate somewhere into somewhere and he had to re-do it, so I remember, we became quite good friends; he was called Peter London and he was a theatre consultant and he used to come and sit on my bed and have chats. And whenever he did this, you know how in some – I don’t know whether it’s all the same in hospitals – but consultants have this sort of aura and everybody’s sort of frightened to death of them, and so all the nurses would be scuttling about and he’d just be sort of lounging on my bed chatting. We got on very well indeed. Anyway, I think because of the situation and everybody thought what a tragic thing it was. So, anyway, yes I spent quite a long time in hospital then.

What had actually happened to your leg?

Well it had just been crushed, really. I mean wearing a prosthesis I suppose didn’t help and that’s the bit, and my pelvis was broken and you know, sort of generally a bit of a mess I think really. So he repaired it as well as he could, really. But then it was apparent that I would no longer have use of my knee, so they had to take the leg off a bit higher and put a metal plate in it to stabilise it and I think that was about it, really. And yeah, there’s something, you know, my hip is still pretty dodgy really, I suppose. Anyway. [laughs] That’s it. Well, about this bit of my life probably being closed, really, I’d probably quite like to close, because I’ve worked quite hard over the years on not making it the biggest, important thing. I hate the reaction, which is often the case with some people, triumph over tragedy, which of course it wasn’t. I mean it was just a thing that happened to me and lots of things happen to other people, but I wouldn’t want it to affect other people’s attitude to my work in the future and so this is a bit that I do not give interviews about and I certainly go into as much detail as I already have done. So, this bit probably should be left until I am of non-interviewable age, or at least until nobody’s interested any more, because, otherwise, because it’s such a sort of emotional thing it rather colours the way people see me and talk about me and I hate that, really.

Why are you so averse to the idea of emerging as triumph over tragedy?

Because it does become the most important thing about it and I’m not a victim. I refuse to be a victim and also, everybody is the result of certain occurrences in their life. I am Betty Jackson Page 76 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side A (part 7) obviously a product of this thing that happened in my life. Some people live their lives without great physical tragedy or whatever, but the point is, it wasn’t just me who overcame this, I was at the centre of things but there was an awful lot of work done by a lot of people who were surrounding me at that time and I am a result of their generosity and kindness and care as well. I couldn’t have done it on my own. I’m sure that’s why I believe in, and I have a very strong loyal team here working with me now, because I think it’s very tricky to do things on your own. And I think in today’s very sort of soppy age, it’s almost that Daily Mail reporting thing, they just really want that story and the work comes after. And I get quite angry about that, really. Because if I, the only reason I am any sort of public figure is because of the work I do and the work we do as a team, and therefore that is the part of my life that is public and it has nothing to do with whether I am five foot eight, almost ten stone – half a stone too heavy, but anyway, almost ten stone – blonde, although going grey now, and whatever you think physically about me, but it has nothing to do with the way I am. It’s in my head. My work is to do with intellect and creativity around me. And I mean if I was trying to be an Olympic swimmer, then of course it would affect, but it really doesn’t because the work I do, I do with my head and my hands and not with my legs. So it’s a bit of me that is irrelevant to my work and that’s the way I wish to keep it.

Has anyone ever tried to portray you as triumph over tragedy?

Many, many. In fact there was an article that appeared very early on with that very headline, which I nearly died. It’s just so embarrassing apart from anything else. I’ve never understood why anybody wants to give away any moment of their personal life at all to anybody in the public domain. And you know, lots of it you have thrust upon you and you have to sort of play a game sometimes, but it’s why you know, I don’t let people, I never let people photograph the children when they were little, I, you know, I’m very careful about my social life, I’m very careful about… I just don’t do it, I just think it’s, I despise it, actually.

[End of Tape 4 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 77 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8)

Tape 4 Side B [part 8]

Where is it that this headline appeared that so upset you?

In a newspaper – I think it was, yeah, it was something like the Daily Mail or something like that. There was just an article on you know, and that’s when it happened. And I had no idea. And also, I remember being absolutely furious, when we started off, when we started Betty Jackson’s off in the eighties it was hugely successful and there were a few of us that were this sort of new, Great British talent that was happening and it was all very exciting and you know, one of us was on television nearly every other week or especially Fashion Week, and it was a very exciting time, it was you know, just like the young ones are now, it’s extraordinary. And I was asked to be on, there was this woman, a journalist called Anne Diamond and she had a breakfast show or something, and it was Fashion Week or something, or we were showing a collection that week and they asked me to be on this television programme, which I agreed because it was the time when you know, I thought I was going to go and talk about the new collection and all of that and it was odd, when I went into the studio and normally the presenters – I’ve done quite a lot of this sort of stuff – and normally the presenters are very nice and they say hello and da-la-da-da and we’re going to talk about this and I’m going to… and she absolutely avoided me. And so I was sat in a chair and I was miked up and blahdy blah – and we went out live as well. And she sat there and the camera turned on and da-la-da-da, we’ve got Betty Jackson in the studio and she turned and said, something like, ‘Now, lots of people have tragedy in their life and my guest this morning has had more than her fair share’. And I was so amazed, I was so astounded and so furious that I could barely reply. And I tried to bring the conversation back to the work and sort of, I said, yes I had this car accident, it was quite a long time ago, but anyway it doesn’t affect my work and of course, you know… and she absolutely insisted on talking only about the tragedy that had beset me. And I was so furious I almost did that thing about ripping your microphone off and storming out of the studio. And I was sort of hurt as well, because it was just slushy rubbish. You know, nothing at all… why was I on there, you know. It was absolutely stupid, I do not want that sort of publicity about my life. You know, it’s completely irrelevant and like I said before, I’m absolutely not going to be a victim of circumstances; we’ve risen above that and whatever’s happened happened and we’ve got on with everything else you know, there’s Betty Jackson Page 78 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) been a future after that. And like I said it’s really no longer the most important thing that’s happened to me. And I was furious with the PR because nobody briefed me about this and I think that they should have done, but obviously they didn’t because they knew I would refuse to go on if that’s indeed what I was going to talk about, and I think that it was, they’d sort of, the BBC pulled the wool over my eyes a little bit by their timing, because it was you know, during Fashion Week and so it was obvious that I would never question the essence of an interview anyway. And I hate Anne Diamond because of it. [laughs] And I was very upset and when the interview finished, she was incredibly rude because I’d obviously been quite tricky to talk to, you know, I hadn’t wanted to give and she was quite rude and said you didn’t make that easy for me at all. And I said, well I didn’t know that’s what I was going to talk about, so it’s always been you know, it was a very tricky moment and I was furious. We got an apology from them eventually anyway. And so I just try and avoid it because just wallow in rubbish about it, so it’s an emotional no go area, as far as everybody else is concerned.

How much had you actually said on air?

Oh, she was fairly persistent in her questions, so you know, they knew about the accident, they knew it in great detail and I said, yes, yes I walk with a stick, yes. I know it’s an odd thing because I’m not glamorous, to be in the glamorous world of fashion where you know, it’s all supposed to be grace and beauty and I said, but you know what, everybody isn’t a size ten and looks like a model, so you know. And I also said it really, like I’ve said here, it hadn’t really affected how I work, because you know, much of my work is done in a studio and not requiring any great physical abilities really. So, yeah, it was awful though.

Can I ask you to go back, as we’re talking about this now, you began the session more or less by talking about being born, breach birth and so forth – how much did your mother tell you and when did, what did she tell you and when did she tell you about what happened?

I can’t remember when she told me. I remember, I mean I have an older sister and I think she probably told me a lot as well and, but there was never any secret about it. It was Betty Jackson Page 79 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) probably much, much later, you know. I mean when, maybe I was sort of teenager or maybe when I was going to college or, but it wasn’t, there was never a no go area about it, it was always, I mean I remember, my earliest memory – I mean I obviously don’t remember being strung up in a plaster cast when I was a baby – but obviously you know, that probably affected you know, I mean I obviously wasn’t the sort of baby who got picked up every time I cried because I was in hospital and also hospitals were very different then, there was visiting times. So you know, I’m sure it was worse for my parents and my sister who had to come and see me and then go away, than it was for me going through it, because I you know. And I remember the very earliest memory is me, of actually seeing any sort of specialist, is me being very little and laid out on this sort of slab, completely naked and this man called Dr Sayle-Creer who was my specialist at Manchester. And I think he cost a fortune, I’m sure I cost my parents a huge amount of money, but anyway. And him walking round and examining and this was sort of you know, the third of the specialists, but he was the big gun that we’d finally pulled strings to see, and you know, him saying, you know, how odd it was and they had no reason – because the whole point about it, because there was nothing wrong with my leg, you know because normal, if you’re deformed or it’s a congenital, at birth, there’s a sort of deformity and so therefore, but because it was absolutely exactly the same as the other, but by the time I was five it must have been about four inches shorter, there was some reason that it just didn’t keep pace and they had no… The thing was that a few other specialists had said, well maybe when she reaches puberty it’ll put a spurt on. And this was always the fear, you know, that actually maybe something would kick into place and it would be alright, because if the leg had been deformed, I think that it would have been an easy decision to make. But the decision that my parents had to make was, do it then and there, because it will be easier for her to cope with, rather than twelve or thirteen when you know, children go through difficult times anyway and she’ll already be used to it and da-da-da-da-da-da. Personally I think they were incredibly brave and I think that they made absolutely the right decision and I’m sure they must have had huge regrets and you know, but, time. And it never did grow. I mean it never, you know the, after, the amputated leg never grew, so they obviously were completely right. But anyway, I remember this man Sayle-Creer examining me and actually being completely puzzled by it. And he was very gentle and he performed the operation eventually. And I remember him being really gentle and kind, especially with my mother and I remember her crying and me not really understanding why Betty Jackson Page 80 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) she was crying. And on the way home, driving home, her saying it’s going to be great now, yes it’s going to be great. So they’d obviously made the decision then, because in a very short time I was back in Pendlebury having the operation done by him. So it was obviously done and dusted on that day that I was laid out on that slab. [laughs] And I’m sure that’s why I remember it, it was in a big huge office, with a beautiful garden, huge lovely windows and a beautiful garden, laid out, which was his office at Pendlebury, which is, it was very nice. Anyway, I remember that too, anyway, so that was the first thing.

Was this all privately done?

Yeah. No, I think he did the operation on the National Health. I’ve absolutely no idea, we went to see him, the consultation was private, and then he took me on, I think. I think a lot of people were, I think my parents were very charming people as well and I think, you know, people did things for them. It’s extraordinary really, I’m sure if they were here today they would say that.

How hard had it been for you to get around with one leg increasingly shorter than the other?

Not at all, I mean I had a built-up thing, I don’t know where I went for that, but it must have been the same hospital because I must have been… But not at all. I remember not having very many pairs of shoes because they were tricky, ‘cos you had to screw in this thing to the shoe. But I remember so little of that, I mean it was really, really early on. I remember much more after I had the amputation. I remember having an artificial leg at the beginning, I remember that more than before.

Can you remember anything about this, before the operation, feeling of being different?

No, not really. Because, except that I do remember being thrilled that I would have two legs the same and that was what I went in knowing that I would come… And I remember being furious that it didn’t happen immediately, because I thought after the operation, you know, I’d magically have two legs and I didn’t. I had, I didn’t have a foot, and so I didn’t quite understand, I remember being really quite cross about that, why didn’t they join it on Betty Jackson Page 81 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) immediately, why wasn’t it instant. And it being explained that it would take a while and then I would. I do remember going into the operation saying this is gonna be fine because, I’m gonna have two legs the same. And I remember awful, awful, awful food and I still hate cabbage because I remember going, being checked into the hospital on to the children’s ward and sitting down at a very low table and having a plate of minced meat and cabbage put in front of me. Ugh, it was so revolting, that I still hate cabbage, the smell of it brings that back. And that’s all. But you know, hospitals were sort of hallowed sanctuaries, they weren’t at all, I mean my mother couldn’t stay with me, she had to go home every day and visit. And my sister wasn’t allowed to even come in the ward. You know, it’s Middle Age stuff, isn’t it? You know, I remember waving to her through the glass. And then of course I was on crutches for a long time, because of course the leg has to heal. But I, you know, you’re little and young and fit and healthy and all of that, so I just hopped all over the place. Played cricket, I did everything. You know it was not, you know, it was easy, it was just how I was. I had never known anything else, so you know.

So this was what, about sixty-one?

I was born in forty-nine, no, no, no, fifty-five. I was six when I had the operation. So earlier on, fifty-five, 1955.

And your parents decision to do that, to take this big step – d’you know how it was arrived at?

No. I think that they took a lot of care and attention and you know, as I think I’ve said in previous tapes, that the GP was a great friend of theirs and used to come and play cards and sat and drink whisky with my father, so I’m sure there was an awful lot of consultation and an awful lot of… must have been heartbreaking for them I suppose, I mean having had children myself now you know, it’s the last thing you want, is for anything to harm them. So you know, to actually have to walk this path I think must have been very hard for them. Anyway.

How were they in terms of making decisions generally, was one more decisive than the other, for example? Betty Jackson Page 82 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8)

My mother was much more volatile. My father was quiet and gentle, but you know, I’m sure that it was a decision that they came to together. I wouldn’t have imagined, one never really took, I’m sure it was one thing that they took together. She always said that they made the decision together. You know, it was always your father and I, so I don’t think that anybody pushed it forward at all. I think that they were in a difficult situation because, you know thank God they did it really, because I would much prefer that than the future as it was being presented, really. So, thank goodness they did it really.

And can you remember the day when they told you that this was going to happen?

As I said, the day that I saw Sayle-Creer was one day that fixed in my mind and generally, you know, as children do, I just got on with you know, I went to school and I… I think I was sort of unaware of a lot of the emotion because I was me, I was playing around, nothing affected me really. So no, it wasn’t a big sort of traumatic sitting down, we’re going to do this now. It was just, today we’re going in and they’re gonna make your leg the same as the other one, which is actually what was said.

So, can you remember more about the aftermath of the operation, was there much pain for example?

Oh yes. [laughs] Yes, yes. Yes, lots. Yeah and, yeah it was tricky for a while I think, really. But I probably have a very low pain threshold, [laughs] I’m hopeless with pain, generally. Yeah, I remember it being quite uncomfortable for a while.

And how long was it before you got your…?

I can’t remember. I mean the thing has to heal and I mean it felt like, I mean if I say six months, I’m not sure whether it even was six months. I’m sure that within six months I was already going to see the limb specialist to get a limb fitted, or at least to be measured for one and you know, all of that stuff. And it must have been – yeah, I don’t think it was any longer than six months. I think also you know, you heal up quite quickly at that age really. Once the scar had healed and there was no danger they start immediately really. Betty Jackson Page 83 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8)

And tell me about getting the leg and what that was like?

Well, it was quite cumbersome, it was also quite heavy, they’re better these days although not much progress has been made, but they are better. But it was made of aluminium and a leather corset that laced up and strapped round and goodness knows what. It was quite a sort of, it was quite a cumbersome thing and I walked with crutches for a while, because of course you put so much pressure on it that you know, pressure points arrive and you have to sort of get hardened to it and stuff like that. But I don’t think it must have taken me very long, I mean it… I honestly, I can’t remember, I can’t remember you know, I can’t remember really it happening. I remember being in hospital before the operation and I remember waking up after the operation, still having, everybody will always tell you that you can still feel your toes which, I can still feel my toes, because the sensation is still there. You know, and it itching like mad and, but I can’t really remember, I’m sure it just sort of went along and got on with it and you know and life continued really. I don’t remember, I mean I remember the, sometimes it being quite uncomfortable, you know if I walked or ran or did too much it would be sore and there’d be a period of, you know. Again, you know, I think it was just dealt with, well yes of course that’s, yes of course it’s like you know, cutting yourself, well you’ll have to wait for it to heal and that’s the end of that, really, sort of thing. It was all very, it feels to me as if it was very matter of fact, which was a very good thing, I think.

How far up or down the leg did it come?

What?

The prosthesis, because you said you had the use of your knee.

Yes, so it went, the corset went, well it strapped on above the knee and then you know, there was a hinge where the knee, my knee was and then the socket for the… Which was easier, because now it’s a bit trickier, but anyway.

And were you able to put it on yourself? Betty Jackson Page 84 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8)

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Yes, learnt that very quickly. Yes, no, no, no, independence, very important.

And tell me about adjusting to it and you know, just getting used to having it and having it as a feature as it were.

D’you know, I don’t remember, I can’t remember it being a hugely important thing. I can’t remember as you say, getting used to it, it was almost sort of like having appendicitis or your tonsils out. There was a period of recovery and when you recovered you got on with it, you know. I mean it was nothing more than that really, for me. Although as I say, I’m sure the people around me were much more affected. But you know, resilience of youth and you know, as far as I was concerned, my family was still the same, my friends were still the same. You know, when I was at home I got a lot of attention, I learnt to play cards incredibly well, it’s why I’m very, very good at board games. And I think it’s probably why I have a lot of patience, because I had to sit or lie for quite long periods of time, still, you know, so I sort of learnt that really I suppose too.

To lie still?

Because it was uncomfortable if you didn’t.

In hospital?

After the operation.

In hospital or out of hospital?

No, no, out of hospital as well. I mean I think I was in hospital about three weeks, but then because of the travelling – I mean huge distances, you know. My mother used to go, I remember seeing, they used to come every night. My mother – visiting was twice a day – and my mother used to come on the train in the afternoon, visit me for an hour, go into Pendlebury or Salford or wherever it was for another hour and my father would drive over Betty Jackson Page 85 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) and then come and visit me for the evening hour and then they would drive home together. And every day they did this. And then at weekends my sister would come, you know, and we’d wave through a glass window. So I mean I’m sure as soon as I was able they got me home, you know, because it was a nightmare really and everybody, they were trying to live their life normally and I took up too much time, I’m sure. So it was still, the wound had to be dressed and you know, it had to have, but my mother learnt to do all of that and I learnt to do it all fairly quickly, you know, it was all sort of bandaged up and I learnt to do that myself too.

And how long did that stage last?

I think it was about six months.

And you said, we got on to this topic in the context of your determination…

[laughs]

I wonder if you could say some more.

Link it somehow.

Yes. As to how those two things connect.

Well, I mean I’m sure this had you know, some effect on the formation of my character. It’s why my sister would say I’m a spoilt brat, because I obviously got far too much attention during these periods, but also because nobody then made any concession for me, you know. I certainly wasn’t ever treated as, oh take care, you know, wrapped in cotton wool or anything like that. This was a normal childhood running about in the fields in a northern Lancashire town. So I think the only thing that I can say is that I obviously did spend quite a long period at home when I should have been at school. And I went back to school and had a bit of catching up to do, but again, I sort of knew I could do it. You know, it wasn’t ever, there was never any suggestion of me not being able to do something. It was, I think also, I mean as far as my parents were concerned, they must Betty Jackson Page 86 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) have had to justify their decision early on as well, that they made, by saying this is for the best, this is going to make things better. And so that must have, I must have heard this all the time that you know, you are going to be able to do this, you are going to, this is gonna be much better, you’re gonna be able to do this, you’re gonna be able to do that. So I suppose the positive determination of my parents obviously had an effect on me.

Who said this, you’re going to get better?

Everybody around me. I mean you know, even if, even if one talked about it, although you know, I don’t remember, I don’t remember having you know, huge crisis meetings or you know, we just didn’t. It was part of what happened and it was just dealt with. I don’t remember it being treated any different than – I’m not aware of me being treated any differently. I do remember [laughs], I do remember once being knocked over on a zebra crossing by a bicycle. [laughs] And this poor boy, I was walking home from my junior school and I was crossing the zebra crossing to go to the sweetshop and I don’t know whether I didn’t look or whatever, anyway he ploughed into me and knocked me over. And so when anything like that happened, it was a bit more serious than somebody you know, and I did hurt myself. But anyway, this poor boy, I remember him coming to the house and him being absolutely devastated that he’d knocked me over and caused me any more pain. And I just remember thinking, oh well, it doesn’t matter, it’s okay. But that was obviously one of the reasons why he was so distraught you know, because he’d knocked over the girl that only had one leg, you know, so obviously that made him more desperate about the situation, you know, thinking that he’d really done great harm, when in fact he hadn’t. It just you know, took a day or so longer to recover than anybody with two normal things. But that’s the only, that’s sort of one of the things I remember, oh that must be difficult from everybody else.

How did he know that you only had one leg?

D’you know what, we lived in a very small village and I think most people knew. I think it was quite – it’s not like living in London, everybody knew everybody and my parents, it’s a small community. You know, huge support, huge support, walking down the road you saw exactly the same people, you know. Going to the market you saw exactly the Betty Jackson Page 87 C1046/10 Tape 4 Side B (part 8) same people. Like I said, all my school friends, my parents knew their parents, my father was at school with their parents. You know, everybody knew everybody. And so in that respect, everybody knew, you know. I mean…

Were you dressed in any way differently to…?

No.

Differently from others…

No.

Or how were you, how did you dress in those days?

Like everybody else. I remember having to dress like my sister. We always used to sort of do that thing, similar but in different colours, which I was furious about, but anyway, you know. Viyella dresses with Peter Pan collars, Black Watch tartan. [laughs] I remember. But I don’t remember, you know, white socks. Bar shoes, you know, just like fifties children, I suppose.

[End of Tape 4 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 88 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9)

Tape 5 Side A [part 9]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson. It’s still Wednesday the twentieth of October 2004 and this is tape five. And Betty, we were talking about you know, how you dressed in those years. One of things I was thinking about was you know, did you wear long socks or short socks or was there…?

Well I didn’t, I mean if you’re meaning to disguise the leg, no, no, no, there was no disguise at all. [laughs] I mean it was, I suppose it was never a consideration really. I mean not until I got much older and hit my teens, but by then I was used to it and like I said, very you know, people just didn’t care. I don’t remember any discrimination at school or in the playground or anything, you know. So I’ve never, I’ve never, certainly when I was little there was no attempt, no insinuation from my parents that you know, an exception should be followed. I wore woolly tights in winter and short socks in summer and short skirts and trousers and no, it didn’t affect me at all. I mean I was quite a sort of slight little thing anyway, I suppose, so you know.

What did it look like?

It looked very metal and very pale pink, it was an absolutely awful colour. And of course, like I said, things have improved slightly now, and it had a sort of wooden bit on the end, for a foot, which was just sort of shaped like a foot and it was really very primitive and really quite ugly. And the paint used to chip off it, because if I fell over or bashed it or you know, walked into any sort of furniture or school desk or chair, it would chip, so my father used to paint it and leave it standing downstairs. Yes, it was absolutely revolting really, but anyway.

And how did you go about, or did you go about it becoming part of you so that you could feel you know, unencumbered or relatively…?

I’ve no idea, it was part of me, it was, you know. I got up in the morning, I put a leg on, I brushed my teeth, you know. Other people get up in the morning and just brush their teeth, but it was just sort of part of me, I really can’t say how I dealt with it, it was a Betty Jackson Page 89 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9) necessity of life really. Otherwise you know, I had to hop everywhere which was you know… I was quite a skilled hopper, so I did get very skilled at that. And I’m very good balancing on one leg, even now. Yes, I could do most things on…

And what did you have to be determined about?

I don’t think at that stage I had to compensate in any way. I was sort of fairly blessed with a degree of intelligence. You know, I never found academic work taxing and like I said, because I’d met so many different people and almost, I mean I think a lot of people who maybe spend very early years in boarding school would say the same, you sort of learn quite quickly to be independent and resilient. The only thing that I would say is different is that I was surrounded by love and care, with always the prospect that this is very temporary and I’m going home any minute sort of thing, which is sort of slightly different – well, hugely different emotionally I think – so I’m really not aware of having to deal with the situation. I’m much more aware of everybody else’s kindness and patience that surrounded me really.

Would you have said, I had to be determined or I was determined and, you know…

Yeah, well that obviously comes from within, but it may not be a result of that, I dunno. Except that I do believe you are formed by your experiences along life’s way, so whether it all comes from that or whether or not you know, it’s inherent, I’ve absolutely no idea, but I just know I am quite determined in certain situations.

I just wondered when you, you know if you can remember perhaps the first time you thought I have to be strong or whatever?

No, and I think that that’s rather a romantic idea of you know, like I say, somebody not being in the situation. I just want to stress that this, you know this was a situation that happened and it was dealt with and that does go you know, what your question does suggest, that there was a sort of romantic sort of, oh, you know let’s… and it really really wasn’t like that at all. I mean everybody was so matter of fact about this thing, nobody ever slowed down for me, nobody ever asked me if I could keep up, nobody ever carried Betty Jackson Page 90 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9) my bag for me, nobody ever did anything like that from the word go. And so there was not a sort of moment of revelation where you know, they sat me down, now you’re going to have to cope with more than most. Rubbish, absolute rubbish, I just got on with what was my life and you know, other people coped with difficult situations as well, but mine was in no way particular, as far as I’m concerned.

I was thinking more in terms of you yourself, in your own…

Well you see I can’t remember whether, you know, I can’t remember, I can’t remember relating a determination to anything about that. There must have been moments when you know, I had to cope with a particular situation. You know, just like when you’re riding a bike, you know, you fall off it, you get back on it and you do it again. And same with a horse, I fell off my horse millions of times. But you know, you just got back in the saddle again and went off again and it was sort of part of it. But I don’t remember, I don’t remember having, I mean I must be determined, I must be determined because of what comes later. But I don’t remember when it happened.

Can you describe yourself, what sort of a child, person were you?

Dunno really. I mean, I’d obviously had quite a lot of attention, so I probably was quite precocious. You see, I absolutely, that’s a very hard question. I’ve no idea. People were usually very nice to me, I think I was energetic, I think I talked probably too much, I think I was optimistic, I think I was happy, I think I was quite, I think a sunny disposition probably [laughs] would describe me. Sounds awful doesn’t it? But anyway, yes that’s probably what it was.

And has that lasted?

Yeah, I think so. I am quite optimistic.

What did you look like?

Betty Jackson Page 91 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9)

Well, I looked – what did I look like? My teeth stuck out at the front and I had a short bob with a sort of grip to one side, I always had my hair parted at one side and either a big fat ribbon in it or a sort of, one of those slide things. Straight hair, mousy brown. Teeth that stuck out a bit. A gap in my teeth which was corrected. Normal, not fat, not thin, not tall, not short. Normal really.

D’you think your character’s changed over the years?

No. No, I think it’s developed, but I don’t think it’s changed.

Developed how?

Well I hope the good bits have got better and [laughs] we’ve squashed the bad bits, but I fear it’s not true. I think, I think – how have I developed? Well, I’ve developed through experiences that I’ve had, really and through people I have met and through work that I have done. That’s the only thing I can say really. Interaction with other people, I think develops one’s character to a considerable extent. I think I might have been, I think everybody is selfish, I think it’s very hard not to be selfish, but it is one of the things I despise. I think having run this, albeit jointly with David, I think you do have to learn to listen to other people and I think it’s a very good thing if you can see things from another person’s point of view. And I strive to do more of that, but I get impatient. And you know, I’m also obviously quite bossy, so I you know, have enough of being patient and bossily go ahead and [laughs] do what I want to do, which is not very good, but, under the name of leadership or something. But yeah, I think that’s what I would say that really, by meeting a lot of different people in my life and being in different situations and being in, obviously slightly vulnerable situations as well, you know, not always being in control and not liking not being in control. And then manipulating things so that you know, you have the possibility of regaining control or you put the elements in place so that you feel more comfortable with the situation.

What sort of situations?

Betty Jackson Page 92 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9)

Oh, many situations. I think that that happens in your personal life, in your work life, in lots of things. I mean when, I think I would apply that rule to lots of different areas of my life really. It’s becoming. You know certainly when we were starting off the business, well before that even, before that when I was working for another company, you know, to actually observe and absorb, really in order to be able to use things that you’ve gained in a knowledgeable fashion I suppose. I think I was aware for a long time that you could learn easily by other people, if other people handled a situation very well, the best thing to do was to learn it and relate it to your own particular situation. You know, if you were impressed by something, by the way somebody handled something or the way somebody, you know, whether it be a graceful way or whether it be a, I don’t know, whatever, a kind way or a patient way, then if you thought that then the likelihood would be that other people thought that too. So then, you know, using the good bits of other people I suppose. Plagiarism.

Can you give some examples of how you were able to do that?

That’s quite difficult. I think I’m talking generally rather than specifically. I think…

Or any example?

I think, I think you know, you face quite a lot of – when we started, when we decided to set up our own company, we did it in the middle of a recession and everybody said, oh, you’re absolutely mad, you know, it’ll just be terrible. And it was 1981 and we sort of thought well, the only way is up and in fact it proved to be true, but then later on, we did go through a huge deep recession of course at the end of the eighties, early nineties and everybody had the most terrible time and I think maybe the experience of listening to everybody before, you knew that it wouldn’t last, you knew that it would go full circle, you knew that nothing lasts forever. And I think that’s a good, I think maybe they should write that on a gravestone, nothing lasts forever, because it doesn’t. You know good things don’t last forever, but neither do bad things. And even in very difficult moments I think I always thought that well, this is fine because it won’t last, tomorrow is something else. You know, and it won’t last forever and even if it goes down, it will, the situation will change. And I believe that. Betty Jackson Page 93 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9)

I’d like to go back, back to your parents really, if you could tell me a bit more about them. Yeah, I’ll just leave it like that.

[laughs] Ooh, you might have to ask a question. Er, er, help!

Okay. No, I’ll…

Well, I don’t know, what do you – do you want to know what they looked like or what they…?

What they looked like, well what you know of their childhood, let’s start with that.

I think – what do I know of their childhood? My father was an only child. He had had great tragedy with his father as well, so that’s more or less all I know except his education was paid for and I think there was not a problem about financial matters. I mean certainly up till grandfather’s accident. After that I think things became a little bit tighter, but I wouldn’t say that they were well off, but they you know, they did all the things that sort of fairly well off people did. So that was him. But I’m talking about a very small town up in the north of England as well, so you know, this may not be the standard elsewhere. My mother came from a large family, a bit more chaotic I think. She was, I think probably, one thing I would say is that she was braver than my father. I don’t know why I say that. Partly because she moved around. She was incredibly glamorous and full of energy, and a bit of a sort of life and soul, you know, of a party. She used to love a party. So you know, I think that my father was sort of the steadying influence, although I’m not sure he was because they used to sort of, you know, do mad things together. I think they were very happy together. And… what else d’you want?

What gives you the sense that they were happy together?

I just sort of feel that. I don’t know, nobody said that they weren’t, but then I don’t think there was any opportunity not to be, so much, in those days really. And I think that actually life took up quite a lot of their time. I mean just general housekeeping and living Betty Jackson Page 94 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9) life with two children, one of whom obviously was taking up quite a large chunk of their emotional and physical time. So, that’s all I can remember.

How much do you know about your father’s relationship with his mother?

I think that she was quite domineering and it was something that… but he, he accepted it really. You know, I think there was a sort of… but I don’t know quite, I don’t know why. I think he almost felt that the accident with my grandfather had made life quite tough for her and so there was an element of indulgence I think, on my father’s part towards his mother, because of that.

You’ve talked about strains between, well, between his mother and your mother, or implied – can you say a bit more about how he, how this indulgence was expressed?

I think he would sort of not get involved, which I think actually is probably the best way to deal with it. I mean I don’t think it was any different from any normal situation about you know, a daughter-in-law coming from another county, which actually was you know, forty miles away, but nevertheless it was like another country, and marrying the only son and the only son who was at that stage obviously to some extent looking after his mother, or he was her life. And, so I think there was, you know, obviously just any normal sort of, I mean I don’t know, resentment, I don’t know – what is it? Bit of rivalry for the affections of the son? I don’t know really. And plus, she was very vivacious and very glamorous, you know, so there was no contest really. [laughs] She won everybody’s hearts, really I think. So I think that he very much, you know, made my mother believe that she was the most important, but that his mother also had a place. I think he was probably quite good at the balancing act. He was a very thoughtful, gentle man, so I think he considered both situations and tried to steer a course in the middle. Poor thing.

Can you give other examples of his thoughtfulness and gentleness?

He went to see her every day, his mother. He visited her every day, every single day and used to spend time with her at weekends as well whenever he could. And you know, but then was very careful not to include her in everything when it was apparent that you know, Betty Jackson Page 95 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9) we needed to be a family or separate or what, but I think my grandmother was quite involved with us anyway because she looked after my sister whilst I was, she was only nine, ten you see when all of my operation was going on and so I think that there was a lot of childcare involved on my grandmother’s part as well. So, you know, I mean a lot of people, I mean I remember lots of my school friends, their grandparents lived with them. It was the normal thing, you know. It was, I mean ours never did that. He kept that very much at bay. But yeah, I mean I do remember that. You know, grandparents living with other school friends. Odd, really when you think about it. Doesn’t happen so much now.

When you say, you talk about his gentleness and thoughtfulness, how about in relation to you?

He was just gentle and thoughtful. He took time, he, I mean whenever, I mean he was the one who taught me to ride a bike and he was the one who drove me to the stables every Saturday morning for a good two years of my life. [laughs] You know, come rain or shine. And there was never any impatience about it, there was never any, I don’t remember any – ‘Oh quickly, I have something more important to do’. He worked very hard, he, I suppose he, I mean he was there every evening, but in those days you know, men didn’t, I mean he never did anything in the home. He never, I mean I don’t think he ever washed a cup. Goodness, you know, I mean it was absolutely waited on hand and foot because that was what happened then. And also my mother, that was her role, she looked after the house and brought us up and things. But he always had sort of time, really.

What did he look like?

He had a long narrow nose and he had a moustache. He had hair, he had a lot of hair, but he used to put stuff on it to sort of slick it back, so he was quite neat really, I suppose. I think he was considered quite good looking, although I could never see it, but you know, he was sort of a, you know, bit of a… He looked like – I mean this is a terrible thing, because he’s not good looking at all – but he looked like a young Alan Whicker. In fact he used to get stopped in the street and every time - I remember an Alan Whicker programme being on the television and we always used to laugh, say, ‘Oh look, dad’s on the television Betty Jackson Page 96 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side A (part 9) again’. So there was a sort of similarity in the way he looked and the way he sort of was. He wore glasses.

And how much – you said a little while ago that your mother’s childhood was a bit more chaotic – what d’you know about that?

Just because there were more of them and I think that they were a bit wilder. I’m sure my father’s childhood was very controlled, you know. He went to a direct grant school and it was sort of organised and because he was an only child and you know, his time was organised between this, this, this and this and it was very regulated and I think my mother had a much freer time, because there were more of them and it was probably more chaotic. Certainly in – well, we’ve spoken about my mother’s parents before – and there was a sort of an ease and a relaxed attitude at their house, whereas my father’s mother’s house was much more formal. You know, you didn’t sort of loll about on sofas, you sat up to the table and had to ask to get down and went into the drawing room and read a book quietly, whereas it was all laughing and behaving badly, probably at my other… Yeah, I just remember it being much more relaxed.

[End of Tape 5 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 97 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10)

Tape 5 Side B [part 10]

Did your mother talk about her childhood to you and your sister?

Only in sort of, not in any depth, not in any detail, not in any, you know. Just happy, easy. There’s lots of, huge things that I don’t know, but I’m not sure that one asked in those days. I mean I’m not sure that you know, that this sort of, I’m not sure one asked. I mean it was much later on, when I was sort of seventeen or eighteen that I used to talk to my mother about things. But you know, it was never really an issue. I mean she… Also I suppose the war changed a lot of things for, you know it displaced a lot of people, I mean that was the reason my mother and father met in the first place, so I think that that must have been a large hiccup in a lot of people’s lives at that time.

So, it was her and, you said earlier she had a brother…

Two brothers and one sister; there were four of them altogether.

And what were they like?

One brother I never knew because he was killed in the war. She had an elder sister who was much more sort of solid than my mother, and then her brother was younger and he was glamorous and a bit of a tearaway I think as well.

How d’you mean, more solid?

My aunt – well just sort of, you know, more practical really, that’s the way I think, you know somebody who sort of baked cakes for Sunday and stuff like that and it was all very nice and organised. Not that our house wasn’t, but you know, it was sort of quieter I think, at my aunt’s house.

You’ve talked a bit about going to visit them when you went to visit your grandparents, can you say a little more about those stops off at the aunt and uncle’s?

Betty Jackson Page 98 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10)

Well, it was a bit of a sort of round trip we used to do and again, you know, one is quite sort of passive, one just sort of – as children we sat in the back of the car and got out when we were told to get out and… but I don’t remember it being unpleasant at all. I remember it being, there was a lot of people to, because I think what used to happen is that they used to do this sort of round trip so we’d – unless we just did it, I can’t, it’s all a bit fuzzy really. Unless we just did my aunt one time and my – we used to see more of my aunt than we did of my uncle. I think he must have lived closer to where my grandparents lived, because I think they used to whiz over to see ours in the afternoon and… or whether my mother was closer to my aunt, I don’t know. I can’t really say. But we used to always end up at my grandparents for lunch and then it was either, if we set off early we’d stop by, on the way, that was always a little bit rushed, or in the afternoon we’d go back that way and that was always a little bit rushed. It was all accomplished within a day, so it was a sort of day trip on a Sunday. Sunday or Saturday – maybe it was Saturday. I think it must have been Saturday because we always went to church on Sunday. Don’t know, it was either one or the other.

But the stops at the aunt, what were they like?

Non eventful, really. I can’t actually say that they were life affecting, it was just part of what we did, you know. Nice to see them.

What was she like?

Oh, homely, sort of gentle, soft sort of woman.

What did she look like?

She looked, she didn’t, she looked very – what did she look like? Everybody looked quite safe in those days I suppose. I mean it was the 1950s so you know, I think you know, you wore aprons in the kitchen and then took them off and maybe everybody was in their smart clothes for the weekend, I don’t really know. My mother always wore high heels unless it was snowing and my aunt never did, so she was sort of – that’s what I mean about her being a bit more solid – but you know maybe that’s just a style she liked. She sort of wore Betty Jackson Page 99 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10)

Hush Puppies and stuff like that. There is a sort of comfort factor about my aunt, you know. My mother was much taller and slimmer and my aunt was shorter and rounder. And as was her husband, her husband was sort of a huge, big jolly, I’d say, Yorkshire man.

And when you stopped off, would you eat anything there?

Oh yeah, I think everybody ate everything when we stopped off, I mean it was just a tradition really. You know, and something to do, I mean it was just social really, it’s what you did, you invited people in and you always had something to eat and drink. I think it was probably social politeness, hospitality.

And would you be on your way to the grandparents, or from?

Yeah, I think so. Either or.

So what would you have there? I mean you had the lunch at the grandparents…

The lunch at the grandparents.

So what would you have at your aunt’s?

Well if it was in the morning we’d have, I suppose a cup of coffee or a drink and a biscuit or something and then if it was the afternoon we’d go probably for tea and have a sort of much more flamboyant high tea, you know, with ham sliced off the bone, you know, expansive sort of food I think, really. You know there was always a bit of a spread, really.

And when you went to, when you stopped off at your uncle’s, what would happen then?

That was less. I mean it was all a little bit more chaotic really. I think because they had three, four boys and so they were always sort of, it was always a bit chaotic and there were always sort of you know, children round and one expected less. Now whether this was because in those days, because the person married to my uncle was obviously in charge of the hospitality and one couldn’t impose because she wasn’t family, whether or not there Betty Jackson Page 100 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) was a sort of, I don’t know, a way of approaching that, but I know we never expected to be fed or watered whenever we went there. I think we often were, but it was a sort of an imposition that you know, we mustn’t ask or – not that it was ever denied – but I’m sure that that was the thing, it was this sort of role playing really. You know, my mother could obviously tell her brother what to do, but she couldn’t tell her brother’s wife or she wouldn’t have dreamed of imposing on her brother’s wife. And she could tell her sister what to do, and because her sister was in charge of the household there, that was a sort of easy communication thing, but with her brother, maybe that was why, I don’t know. But it was sort of less accommodating, but nevertheless you know, good fun and you know, all very nice.

You’ve talked a bit about these boys and playing with them, was it on these occasions or other occasions, how, you know, in what circumstances be together to play?

Only as soon as we got there really, because that was the thing, you know, the children went out to play or we went into the playroom to play or you know, whatever you did, you didn’t really sit with the grown-ups. It wasn’t you know, the adults sat in a situation to obviously chat and talk and blahdy blah and the children were encouraged to go away I think.

You talked about playing cricket?

Yes. Well my father was very keen on cricket and was obviously hugely disappointed that I wasn’t a boy so that he could put me in the cricket team, but anyway. So cricket was quite a big part of our lives, really. I still enjoy cricket, I absolutely love cricket. And so, yeah.

You said at one point you were, in the context of cricket, that you were an honorary boy.

Yes. Yeah well, the thing was, all of my cousins were boys and there was only Anne that were girls and also one longed to, I mean I don’t remember playing girls’ games very often at all. I remember playing cowboys and Indians and climbing trees and doing that sort of game. Not so much football, but very definitely cricket I remember, and rounders and that Betty Jackson Page 101 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) sort of, yeah, physical game. But I don’t remember – except I must have done, I got a doll one Christmas called Christina, with clothes to change and she was absolutely the best thing I’d ever, ever had in my whole life, but I don’t remember imposing this on my boy cousins, at all. Fear of being scoffed at I suppose. Because they all had much more important things to do up a tree, so you just did that because it was exciting and far more dangerous and you know, I suppose that was better.

How old were you when you got Christina?

I think that was round about, I must have been about six or seven. She could talk.

Who gave it to you?

Father Christmas. Of course.

Sorry, I interrupted you.

No, that’s…

You said she could talk.

Yes, she could talk. You turned her over and she let out this pathetic cry. I think she was ‘top of the range’, as they would say now. She had blonde curly hair that – oh, she was just fantastic. And I called her Christina, now I’ve no idea why I called her Christina, but isn’t it revolting, but you see I thought it was the best name in the whole wide world. She came with a change of clothes which I was completely thrilled about.

And the honorary boy thing, I’m fascinated by that term, how you know, what made you an honorary boy?

I think probably I wasn’t a very girly girl, either. I mean I don’t think, I don’t remember wanting, I think I had no time for… I don’t think I was sort of, I wasn’t soppy I don’t think, but, and also I did quite a lot of things with my father, I think I mentioned before Betty Jackson Page 102 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) that I used to go to football matches with him. And you know, you were aware that there weren’t very many daughters in that situation. You know, there were a lot of young boys with their fathers, but not so… my poor dad didn’t have a son you see, so I had to be one. And that’s the only thing, I think, really. He did once say that, I mean I think my birth must have been traumatic and probably if it hadn’t been, I think that they might have had more children, but obviously because of me, they didn’t. And so…

How d’you mean, because of you?

Well because I think it must have been very traumatic. I think actually the birth must have been for my mother, first of all, but people recover from that don’t they, and then simply because I was in and out of hospital for such a long time and you know, and it was sort of continual traumas. They fixed the hip, but even then you know - I mean my children were premature and had to be in an incubator, but I mean the thought – I mean my son worse than my daughter, and even just leaving him for three days, I mean I was still in hospital, but leaving him was you know, horrid really. You know, I know you’re exhausted, but nevertheless my mother had to leave me in a hospital miles down the road. This is a local hospital, but she was sent home and I was still there. So, you know, for the first six months she had to visit me there and you know, poke at me through a cage for God’s sake and you know, I think it was pretty strong stuff for them really. It was, it must have been an emotional roller coaster. And then, it didn’t stop, of course, because you know, till I was six when you know, normally you have children within three or four years, but obviously then, it probably wasn’t even a consideration because I was too much of a problem, probably. And I’m fairly sure they took the decision, or maybe they didn’t even take the decision. I have no idea, I have no idea, but I’m sure, you know, my dad and I went and did boys’ things together, that’s all I can say about it.

So how do you know, or what makes you think that he would have liked you to be a boy?

I don’t think, I mean I think maybe in a conversation he referred to you know, shame, you know, shame, but I think it was largely a joke. He used to tell very good jokes. He was a good joker. But I can’t remember, I mean they didn’t emotionally scar me or anything like that, I think I thought you know, it was a sort of more of an opportunity, I could sort of be Betty Jackson Page 103 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) more important in his eyes if I, you know. But it didn’t… And I think Anne , my sister, was, I mean there were three and a half years’ difference, four years’ difference, so that’s quite a lot when you know, I am only six and she is ten and then by the time I’ve had my operation she’s already eleven, twelve and her life is already developing. You know, she’s passed the Eleven Plus, she’s gone on to grammar school, I’m still at junior school, you know, your lives divide and so maybe she had to sort of be a bit separate and get on with her life because you know, my parents were taken up so much with me, even physically getting me from place to place you know, to have various things done. So I suppose that that affected things really. That’s gone off the track about being a surrogate boy really, hasn’t it, but anyway. And I used to quite like boys’ things really, I used to quite like that. I admired, I had a few boys who were friends as well, I never had a problem about you know, I didn’t treat them any differently. I had a few good mates who were boys.

Can you tell me about any of them?

One was called David and he lived down the road and he was, we just got on very well, we used to spend quite a lot of time together. And I remember it being odd, because he then grew up and for some reason, came to the grammar school later on and was the object of love and affection by all of my friends, which I thought was very odd because of course, because he was such a mate, I’d never seen it, but apparently he was handsome and you know, and anyway, so that was rather funny, really. I was sort of a bit of a, you know, an inroad into, I was sort of stupid about, how stupid girls are sometimes when they are together, very irritating.

How old would you have been when this happened?

That would have been about fifteen, GCSEs – or O levels as they were then called. I think he came to do his A levels at the grammar school. He’d been at another school before. I think he came to do his A levels. But there was a sort of group of us when I got to the grammar school. And plus, I mean I think I’ve referred to before, but there were friends of my father’s who he was at school with who all had children, girls and boys and we all went on holiday together and spent weekends together and whatever, so you know, I think it was quite a sort of, there was a balance of both sexes in my life really, I suppose. And I don’t Betty Jackson Page 104 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) know whether it was something, like I said before, about being a little bit independent. I mean I remember, after the operation, there was a boy in the bed next to me and we you know, played games together and you know, lying in bed together or whatever, and so I don’t think I’ve ever you know, seen a big difference between having a friendship with a boy or a friendship with a girl. I mean when I was a teenager I had a couple of best friends who were girlfriends who obviously, you know, did all that and told your innermost secrets and dressed the same and did ridiculous things together and you know, were joined at the hip, but I still had an awful lot of friends who were boys.

What was the basis of the friendship between you and David, I mean what drew you together?

I think my sister and his sister were very good friends also and we were sort of the next generation. I can’t remember why. And I think he was, there was something quite glamorous about him because he wasn’t at my school, so you know, it was a sort of friendship that nobody else had, none of my other school friends had so maybe there was something special there, I don’t know. My sister went, his sister was at the same school and she was very good friends with my sister, so I suppose it came because of that.

And what sort of things did you do together?

Played cowboys and Indians. I remember that most of all.

You said you would have much preferred to be an Indian and you were always cast as the cowboy.

Yeah.

Can you say a bit more about that?

I don’t know why that was, yeah, I don’t know why that was. I think I sort of wanted to be the big chief, I don’t know. I never wanted to be the pathetic Indian squaw, that never appealed. But I think I always wanted to be the Indian chief and also because the cowboys Betty Jackson Page 105 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) spoke normally, but Indians you know, you could have a different language if you were the Indian and you know, and speak in a sort of slightly pidgin English and, but if you were a cowboy you just had to speak normally so it was a bigger role to play, I think, if you were the Indian rather than the cowboy.

How much did you know about cowboys and Indians?

Roy Rogers and – who was the other one? The Lone Ranger I suppose, yeah, children’s television. That’s all really. Comics, I suppose. Used to get the Beano and Dandy. Dan Dare, I suppose he was a cowboy. No, Desperate Dan it was, not Dan Dare, Desperate Dan. He was a cowboy wasn’t he, he used to eat half cows. [laughs] But yes, limited I suppose.

And when you would have played cowboys and Indians, what would you actually have to do?

Shoot each other from behind bushes, tie each other to the tree, win, and then start again. Run about a lot, shooting each other I suppose.

Who would win?

Don’t know, can’t remember. It varied. Not always important, the story then maybe took on a different turn. Then maybe you’d end up being friends and sitting round a camp fire, or – imaginary, obviously – but you know, maybe you’d do that. I don’t know, they were sort of games that were improvised, there was no, you know. Probably lots of arguments, but you don’t remember those bits do you?

And what other boy friends did you have as a child?

A few people at school. I think David was the one that stood out. A few of my girlfriends had younger brothers who were a bit of a pain in the neck, and boy cousins and it wasn’t until I got, I think I got older, till I got to secondary school that – which was co-educational – that I realised the true value of a boyfriend. Or at least I liked the idea of I don’t know, Betty Jackson Page 106 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10) yeah it was much later on. And then there quickly developed a group of us and there was three girls I remember, and maybe four or five boys and we used to sort of hang about together. This was sort of fourteen, fifteen really. But you always had to have a boyfriend. I mean I had a boyfriend from the age of about twelve, for goodness’ sake. You know, that sent you valentine cards and wrote notes and put them in your desk and you know, stuff like that. I went to the pictures with one boy, called Ian Thompson, [laughs] and it was ridiculous really, and I was very young, I must have only been about thirteen. And I remember my father driving down and obviously sitting waiting outside the cinema till I came out, and it was Ben Hur and it was odd. I remember that was the very, very first time I went to cinema with somebody. [laughs]

How different was that from, how different was having a boyfriend from having a boy who was a friend?

Oh, they were essential really. I mean I think you were a social pariah if you didn’t have a boyfriend. It was all innocent stuff though, it wasn’t really you know, there wasn’t any… but there was you know, somebody who you giggled about and other people that you actually you know, had a normal conversation with. It’s odd isn’t it? And then, the thing was that then it would change because of course, you know as your relationship moved on or you know, you finished with somebody or somebody finished with you and you moved on, then they either became part of and then you had a normal conversation with them, so it was all sort of very interactive, you know it was ebb and flow, really.

And at what age did, I mean was there a point at which it changed from just being part of a group of friends to actually dating as people say now?

No, I think it went on side by side, really. I mean there were periods when you didn’t and then there were periods when you did. But one, it didn’t, one didn’t interrupt the other, I mean sort of having a date meant really probably that you went around the village holding hands in your lunch hour or you know, in breaks you lolled against a wall with somebody instead of having a much more interesting time with other people really, but that’s what you did. And I think that there must have been school dances and stuff like that. Quite a bit of snogging went on, I’m sure. Well I remember, there was. [laughs] Betty Jackson Page 107 C1046/10 Tape 5 Side B (part 10)

So you did too?

Oh yes. Of course.

I think on that happy note, we’ve come to the end of the tape.

[End of Tape 5 Side B]

Betty Jackson Page 108 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11)

Tape 6 Side A [part 11]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson. It’s Thursday the twenty-fifth of November 2004 and we’re starting tape six and there’s been quite a gap since our last session Betty, I wonder if you want to say just something about where you’ve been and what you’ve been up to since then.

Yeah, we had to go to Italy to do some knitwear for next winter - winter oh five. And we visited the two factories that we work with there, so we were away for four days, rushing around and doing all of the styles for next winter, so it was quite busy. And what else? And then one day I had to do, I had to go to Dublin to see a couple of shops that we sell to and make one of those ghastly appearances, you know, at department stores and meet the general public and advise them what to wear, or not, but anyway. So one of the days was, one Thursday that was, we flew to Dublin and back. Dublin’s great though, it was fantastic, I love Dublin. It’s really a good place, it’s a very exciting place. So that was a nice trip.

How?

It’s very buoyant, the economy is fantastic, you meet a lot of very intelligent, independent women who are in control and you know, they’re just great. And it’s much more European than London, really, quite different. It looks the same until you start talking to people and then they’re very positive and upbeat and their glass is half full, not half empty. It was a very exciting trip.

Which women are you talking about? Sorry for the interruptions. Which women are you talking about?

Oh customers and you know, people who come to see you and you know, just people who are interested in you being there really.

And why is it ghastly, you said just now. Ghastly…

Betty Jackson Page 109 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11)

Because the bit that I don’t like is the public bit – I think I’ve mentioned it before – and I know you sort of have to, but it’s the bit that’s the most difficult to do, I think. I sort of rather like the idea of being anonymous, behind this thing, but unfortunately it’s not to be and so I resist as much as possible to do this thing. And in fact, when you get there, one to one, it’s actually rather exciting. [phone ringing] Oh dear. I forgot to unplug the phone! And in fact when you get there it’s nice, specially if you meet you know, intelligent people or professional people or people who are quite good fun. And so ultimately one rather enjoys it, I mean it’s, and it’s interesting and it’s good to do because you hear, you know, direct from the horse’s mouth as it were, why things are fabulous or why things are not fabulous, so it’s, you have to do it. It’s just that I don’t like the thing about you know, it’s alright when it’s one to one and you’re sort of in there working and you’re you know, you’re talking and you’re exchanging ideas, it’s just that thing about you know, oh she’s here, and oh gosh, oh is that what she looks like? Oh, I thought she’d be taller or oh, I thought she’d be smaller or oh, I thought she’d be younger. Ooh, she doesn’t look like her photograph. [laughs] And you sort of think, oh dear. And then you get the odd people who actually have sort of, you know, because I’ve been around so long, they’ve sort of followed the career for quite a long time and are quite earnest about knowing everything you’ve done in the last… those are tricky, really. Anyway. It was a nice trip.

And how do you know that people are saying these things about you?

You can hear it – they’re in the same room! You know, they walk past, they say, you know. Yes, it’s, I’d hate to be a real celebrity actually, I’d hate it. Must be ghastly.

And how do you respond?

Oh well you have to just smile and wave, you know. Some of it’s quite interesting, some of it you have to sort of just let go of your head, really.

And vis a vis Italy, how do you ‘do’ knitwear in Italy?

Well, we had chosen – I mean we’re already well on with the winter collection, so we’d chosen all the colours and the yarns and we’d sent those out, well indications of what we Betty Jackson Page 110 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11) were looking for, to each factory and we’d sent a couple of sketches beforehand indicating the sort of thing we wanted to do and so then we spend two days at the – well, two and a half days at one and then one day at the other, because one does much more for us, so it’s proportionate. And we go [laughing] – everybody always says, ‘Oh fabulous to go to Italy, oh have a lovely time’ and in fact, you arrive at the airport, you get in a hire car and you drive to the factory and then you just stay there, you know. So it’s quite hard work. They usually have things ready for us when we get there, so we work with their sample machinists and sample knitters and they do stitches for us and we look at yarns that we’ve thought about using and decide whether they’re good and choose the colours and then draw up all of the styles and put measurements on and go through everything with them. And that takes two days from eight o’clock in the morning till about eight o’clock at night usually. And then we get in the car and drive up the motorway to the other factory and do exactly the same thing. But they’re very nice, they’re very nice to us. They, you know, in the middle you have fantastic pasta. [laughs] So it’s very nice.

And where are the two factories?

One is in a very small village called Predappio, which is well known because it’s Mussolini’s birthplace, which is rather frightening if you go to the village, ‘cos they have a sort of bit of a fascist souvenir shop, which is alarming to say the least, but anyway. And it’s where he was born and where his tomb is. And I think it’s its only claim to fame. And the other one is in a place called Carpi, which is up by Modena, which is where balsamic vinegar comes from, well the best balsamic vinegar comes from. And they’re much smaller and they do handknits for us and much more special things. The one down near Bologna is much more cut and sew and does the bulk of the knitwear. But we’ve worked with them for quite a long time and they’re extremely nice, accommodating people and as all Italians, appreciate design big time, so are very excited about doing new things and experimenting and all of that stuff. So you know, it’s a sort of collaboration which is exciting.

And when you travel to these places, who’s ‘we’?

Betty Jackson Page 111 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11)

Myself and my assistant, depending on which collection we’re working on. So, I have two assistants and sometimes production goes too, but this time it was myself and my assistant on the main collection.

Right. And to return to where we were last session. We had talked at considerable length about you know, your operations and things with your leg and so on, and at the end of the session after we stopped recording, you had said some more about how the way you were affected your family.

Gosh, it’s such a long time ago, I’m afraid I can’t remember any. Can you prompt with questions?

Well, about how difficult it must have been for your family and their coping with it, and…

Well, I’m sure it was.

…adjusting their lives. You had talked in the recording about the hospital and so forth, but I had been asking you questions about you know, your own personality, your determination and so forth and I think what you indicated to me was that that was connected with trying to – I don’t want to put words in your mouth – but something like to spare your family or to sort of protect your family or something, but can you relate to that?

I can’t remember, I’m afraid I can’t remember what I said and maybe it was just because we had been talking about it for so long, so it’s quite difficult to go back to that and say again, because obviously what I said came out of the discussions that we had had. So I’m afraid I can’t pluck something out of the blue.

Alright, so let’s go back to the chronology then and talk about your going to art college and your thoughts and feelings about art and your experience of art before and at the time of going to college.

Betty Jackson Page 112 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11)

Okay. Well I went to art college really by accident and by elimination, rather than design I think, because the school that I went to was a very academic grammar school. It had been a direct grammar school and had turned into a grammar school and I think I said before that it was the school that my father went to, and his friends. And the onus was very much on academic achievement really, although it was quite a small school. But anyway, it was a successful one too, I mean you know, it was considered to be good. And anyway, so I think we talked also before, once I’d made my mind up to beat classmates, [laughs] I found exams and course work really quite easy and, but I could always draw and I enjoyed drawing and I was encouraged as, a little bit sort of like a bit of, you know, oh, she can draw. You know, it’s a bit of a sort of an extraordinary thing really, rather than… so it was a bit of a, I was always sort of trotted out as, you know, people knew that I could draw and people knew that I could get a decent likeness and stuff like that really. And so I enjoyed art a lot, although art was really quite restricted, [laughs] I mean, when I think – I had the most fantastic art teacher, who was a bloke for a start off, and he looked like an art teacher because he had a little sort of goatee beard and quite long hair and always sort of wore his – well actually all our teachers wore their gowns, they all looked like teachers – but he really looked like an artist, you know. He really looked, you know, with a sort of waxed moustache and stuff. And he was really quite encouraging, but the curriculum was very limited, obviously. You know, you learnt to do perspective and you sort of drew a street scene, which you made up in your head, which is extraordinary really, and you drew a bowl of fruit and you threw a pot and that was about it. But he was quite, you know working within the restrictions that he had, you know, he used to sort of say, ‘Right, it’s a lovely day, we’re gonna go out today and draw, and everybody get…’ and he was quite sort of an exciting sort of bloke, I suppose. So I always had quite a bit of encouragement from him and did O level and A level art and it was only when it came to filling in the form to go to university you know, I just sort of thought – and I was going to just read English and history – and I thought then I can’t do this and I put this off to the very last minute and went for my chat with the headmistress and said, I’m not going to do this, I’m going to go to art college instead. And that was a bit of a fuss then really, because people didn’t go to art college. They went to music school, it was quite a musical… because the Halle Orchestra was quite near and we had relations with, and so music was okay, but art was really a no-no. So she called my parents and they came to the school and there was a bit of a fuss and, anyway, it was really I knew what I didn’t want to do rather than what I Betty Jackson Page 113 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11) did want to do, because I had no idea about art school, I had no idea about art college, I had no idea at all. But all I knew was that I didn’t want to just be writing essays for the rest of my life, you know, with the possibility of becoming a teacher or whatever it was that you did. So my parents agreed, the school was still a bit pissed off about the whole thing. I think they were thinking about you know, numbers on a chart or whatever, but anyway. And so my father then said, okay – so then they checked out the art college and what you had to do then was this year’s foundation course and then a three year – it was called DipAD at those times, it wasn’t even, you were lower than the low, you weren’t allowed to have a university degree at that point. And so we checked it out and my father then said, well okay, if you’re so keen on doing this, you must go locally for a year and then decide. Because I think that they thought that I actually would change my mind, or they thought that I would see sense and then go off to university and I think that they’d had a bit of a chat to the headmistress and said you know what, she’ll probably come round to the whole thing and in six months’ time we’ll be looking at her going to Cambridge, it’ll be fine. However, everybody went off to glamorous places and I went to Rochdale College of Art which was literally five miles down the road, so everybody went away from home, oh, and it was just awful really. I mean even going to Manchester, you know, was better than going on a bus to Rochdale every morning, you know. However, what was so amazing was that the moment I got to Rochdale I knew I’d absolutely made the right decision, because to be then surrounded by like-minded folk was just fabulous. And to have the threat of an academy life taken away completely, but the security of knowing that you know, I could do the history of art essay and you know, I could remember dates and I could – not that I can remember anything about you know, my life – but anyway, I did remember dates in those days. And it was just fantastic to be with a different group of people who were creative and it was just fabulous. And of course in the foundation course I don’t think there was very much change there really, because what you do is you go and do lots of different disciplines and then decide which one you do. So the first day, I remember we went into the drawing studio and there were all these other you know, much more glamorous folk than me, I went along with my sketchbook and my two B pencil and everybody was sort of ripping big pieces of brown paper up and charcoal on the floor and it was just so exciting, you know, and there was a sort of model there that we drew and oh, it was fabulous. And so I had a lovely, lovely, lovely time at Rochdale because also there was an embroidery department which was run by a couple who were, Mr and Mrs Booth Betty Jackson Page 114 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11) they were called, and they were already quite elderly, but had an iron grip on Rochdale College of Art, but had travelled extensively and had the most fabulous antique textiles collection and it was quite well known in the area, and taught me about, I mean just – well they didn’t really teach, but just showed texture and colour and everything that you could do with, you know, they did embroideries as paintings really in Rochdale. And they did, you know, they used fabric as paint and they, and it was just a complete eye opener for me, it was fabulous. So that’s where I fell in love with fabrics, I think.

Why was it that art, it wasn’t done to do art in your part of the world?

Wasn’t the norm, I think and art colleges were, there was a sort of hierarchy in education, which is odd to think of now, because now you can get a degree in anything I think, but there it was very much treated as a sort of vocational thing, you know, if you weren’t good academically, well this is what you did, or you could be directed towards this sort of thing. And there were a lot of people on the course who had failed to get any O levels and failed to A levels and you know, that sort of thing and had not ended up there because that was the only thing they could do, but actually had not been encouraged in their creative side and actually that blossomed in that environment, but there was very, there was a bit of a, you know it wasn’t considered the thing to do. And also because in my school, you know a lot of people did the Oxbridge thing, so there was a norm, you know, it was the twenty best students, that’s what happened to them and because I was in that ranking, that was what was expected and everybody always did. And I was the only one to go to art college.

Can you remember how far back you began to draw and began to really like drawing?

I think it was when I was recovering from the first operation, from having the amputation, because I had to stay still for so long. So I suppose that that’s when it started. I did jigsaws, I played card games and I drew.

And how did the drawing come about – where did the influence come from?

Betty Jackson Page 115 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11)

You know what? I think somebody bought me, when I came out of hospital when I was about six, somebody bought me a painting by numbers set, an oil painting by numbers it was, it was a friend of my mother’s and I did it and that was my first vague… [laughs]

Can you remember what the subject was?

I know it wasn’t big and there were lots of colours. I think everybody got together with ideas of how to keep me occupied really, because I think it’s quite difficult to keep a small child from moving around, you know, and so I think everybody, and this was the star prize I think, really. So it was good fun, I mean I did it and I enjoyed it and then after that thought, oh I can do this without the numbers bit, I can do this without filling in the thing. I enjoyed the action of, I suppose.

And what sort of things did you draw and paint over the years?

I drew people, I drew portraits of people, I drew, you know, did that thing about – a lot of people asked me to draw them or their children or their dogs or their horses or you know, so I did quite a bit. That was much later though, when I was sort of fourteen or fifteen. But I just could you know, get likenesses really. In a very tight, boring sort of way, there was no emotion in them, they’re awful, they’re shocking. I don’t know whether anybody’s still got one, I hope not. It’s always that thing isn’t it, like a stalker they emerge from the dark. But anyway, yeah they were really crap, but they looked like the people that I was doing.

Can you remember some of the people and…?

Yeah. Friends of my parents. You know, it was still this small town thing, really. So people asked me to do things for Christmas presents or birthday presents, you know, or just, I mean it was very much a thing, you know. I mean you had to have photographs of your family didn’t you, on your wall or photographs of school or in your school uniform, it was very much what people did. I never quite understood why you had to have the likeness of the person though, when the person was actually there. And I don’t do that at all now, but certainly it was a cultural thing, I think, people did. Betty Jackson Page 116 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11)

Can you remember any particular dogs or children or individuals that you, and how you went about it?

Well I used to go and – I mean they were all friends so it was all, it wasn’t really you know, it wasn’t sort of like a commission, it wasn’t formal or anything. And I used to just go to their homes or they used to come to us for dinner or for tea or whatever, or lunch and I used to just sit and draw them, a pencil drawing with you know, bit of a highlight or a bit of colour, whatever they wanted really. Usually on ghastly grainy paper and you know. I think that was because it was desperately trying to get some sort of mood in, because they were really shockingly bad I think. I’m not an artist, unfortunately. I always regret it, but not.

And what media did you use when you were drawing?

Pencil, very simple, pencil or… rarely water colour, that was far too difficult. You know, things that you could rub out. [laughs]

And can you remember a particular time when it came to you that you didn’t want to do an academic degree, that you wanted to do…

Oh, it was very late on, it was really right at the end of A levels. You know, it certainly wasn’t, I hadn’t sort of plotted for a long time, it was much more spur of the moment, it was much more, oh my God, this moment is here, I have to fill this form in because I was late and that’s really why I had to go and see Miss Macillroy , she was called, because I was the only one who hadn’t handed it in. And I went to her office and said, well I haven’t because I’m not going to university, and then there was, you know, are you sure and you really should and you know, what are you going to do for further education and this is the first thing I’ve heard of this. And I just blurted out, well I’m going to go to art college, I want to go to art college and really it was a very sort of moment, you know spontaneous, scared thing. I was quite scared of Miss McIlroy , everybody was, it was you know, the whole thing was built on fear, discipline and stuff like that, really. Odd, nowadays isn’t it? But it was. [laughs]

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Who was she?

Pardon?

Who was she?

She was the headmistress. So, and that’s really what happened. I honestly hadn’t plotted it, I hadn’t discussed it with anybody, I hadn’t, you know, I’d sort of pushed it away I suppose, in my head, but then it was like the moment of truth, you know. Okay, give me this form now, so I had to either give or not. So I suppose it was you know, a bit of dutch courage or I mean, courage right at the last minute, but certainly not brave beforehand.

And how had you come to the decision previously to do English and history?

Really it was just following a path. I’d chosen the arts, it’s what I was taking for A level, plus art and it was you know, one didn’t do art, so it was obvious that I was going to read English or history.

And what was it about those subjects that made you decide no, I can’t go through with it, or with the whole academic thing?

I didn’t want to be a teacher. I knew that there was something more exciting and I knew I would die of boredom if I did it.

So, going to Rochdale,

Yeah.

You said earlier, it was really hard.

Well, only because my friends went to London, to Manchester, to St Andrews, to Oxford, to Cambridge, to all of those places, you know, and left home, and I didn’t. So you know, Betty Jackson Page 118 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side A (part 11) suddenly they got into this student life big time and there was still a degree of control where I was really.

But was there something about Rochdale specifically, or just that you were taking a different path, or what?

No, no, I think I was just probably by that time ready to leave home, ready to go and experiment a little bit more with my own life and everybody else was doing it and I wasn’t, you know. It, that was just that, but it was very quickly, I mean I enjoyed what I did. It was a, I met some interesting people and absolutely no regrets. In fact, thank goodness I did it because otherwise I’d be a teacher. Ugh. Or I’d have died of boredom. [laughing] One of the two. Maybe both.

Where did you live?

At home.

So how did you get to Rochdale?

On a bus. Two buses in fact. The journey took about three-quarters of an hour, the college was right in the centre of town and it was a very easy journey. Very easy journey. I hadn’t passed my driving test by then I don’t think. I did later on and yeah, had a car in Birmingham, when I moved to Birmingham.

[End of Tape 6 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 119 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12)

Tape 6 Side B [part 12]

Can you just a little bit about the part that drawing has played in your life in the past and in the work that you do now?

Well I think it was the initial sort of turning a light on really, when the fact that one, I could get something on paper that was a reasonable likeness and it progressed from there, I think by the time I did A level it was still really quite controlled, but there was a little bit more movement and emotion in it. And it was something that I’ve always enjoyed doing, which also brings confidence I think if you, I mean the physical act of drawing I enjoy, I enjoy putting marks on paper. I mean it’s now much more of an information tool to pass on to pattern cutters or discuss something with an assistant or a factory or a, you know, somebody who’s going to do something for me, but it’s a sort of an essential tool. I don’t draw for pleasure any more, although one always sort of thinks, oh if you’ve time, this would be a lovely thing to do, but you know, tragically I earned my living as an illustrator for a time, but that was a very stylised way which, I mean when we were at college in Birmingham when I did the DipAD, part of our weekly programme was to spend life drawing and it was considered then to be very, and a very important part and I think it is an important part, I think if you’re gonna put things on a body you should know about it. and it’s also a pleasurable thing I think, it’s also – it was then at any rate. I used to you know, it’s a way of expressing something, it’s a way of, and I’ve always loved that sort of thing. But now it’s become, I mean timewise and stuff like that, it’s become very much a tool, really.

When you say if you’re going to put something on a body you need to know about it…

Well, proportion wise, you need to sort of know, I mean stupidly you need to know where bust, waist and hips are, you need to know about leg length, you need to know, you know, about your shoulder, you need to know about why things have to fit and, because if you’re trying to create a silhouette by enveloping the body, it’s got to be there somewhere underneath and able to function. So given the first premise that there is a body there to dress, then you create your silhouette or your shape on top, but I’ve never been one that wanted to restrict natural movement, so I suppose that’s why it’s always quite important to Betty Jackson Page 120 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12) know that, you know, you have to know where your elbow is and know when you life your arm up what happens and you know, things like that. Body movement has always been quite important for me.

And how did being able to draw, learning to draw assist that process?

I think by looking and looking and looking, really, at a human body. I think that’s quite important as well, I mean as a designer you have to never stop looking really.

Can you say a bit more about your art teacher in school, the arty…?

He was called Jim Cawthorn and he, and the art room was, it was a very small school and the art room was way up on the top floor – well it was only a two storey building, but it was sort of way up and out, had to go upstairs and round a bit and left a bit and down a corridor and that was where it is – and it was a wonderful room because it was surrounded by big windows and it was very light and it was filled with you know, stuff I suppose that he’d collected. So there were plants and skulls and animals and stuff in there, so it was sort of an exciting place to be, not normal classroom stuff. And then there was another room off, which was known as the sculpture room, but all it had was a potter’s wheel in there and that’s all we did, we had, we threw a pot and did a bit of clay stuff. But it was a very controlled class; we sat in a semi-circle round whatever subject we were drawing. But he always was, you know, he always pushed it a little bit further I suppose and was always incredibly enthusiastic about things and it was an enjoyable hour, or whatever it was we spent. And then when I came to do A level, you were sort of allowed unlimited access to this room and could be in there whenever you had a free period, so I did spend quite a lot of time there, but still in a very controlled way. I mean you know, there wasn’t anything remotely flamboyant happening I think. But he was a very knowledgeable man too and actually just showed us quite a few things, which was good.

How did he do that?

You know, there was a bit of history, there was a bit of learning the technique. He was also a brilliant draughtsman himself. He could just do something on a bit of paper that Betty Jackson Page 121 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12) filled you with awe and respect. His marks on paper were really rather beautiful. And he still has exhibitions up north, in fact, because I was in touch with him not long ago. He… [noise of plane or helicopter] – it’s coming closer, it’s Prince Charles on his [inaudible, laughing] Sorry. He, you know, he spent time with you and he cared and I think he was thrilled when somebody responded too, because you know, a lot of people just treated it as a bit of an hour off really and you know. So within the environment I think he was sort of rather pleased when he got some sort of response from people.

What do you mean when you said he pushed things further?

Well he would, he would surprise you, you know, and get energy going within the group of us by you know, bizarrely rushing us. I mean it was, the school was on top of a hill and it had, and the playing fields were at the back and it was all very lovely, it was really, it was quite a beautiful old stone building. And we used to just sort of tramp across and there was a sort of ravine that was called the Glen, so we used to sort of walk down one side and up the other and then sit in a field and he’d just say draw what you can see. And I think he made us look, I think he made me look anyway, for the first time, because you then don’t draw an impression – people think that they can’t draw because they think they have to draw what they think they should and instead of putting down a line where you see a line and instead of doing dark and light where you see dark and light, people do what they think a glass looks like, instead of what they see and I think he taught me to look at what, to record what I saw, rather than what you think you see.

What did he say or do for that to happen?

He just said that. Don’t draw what you think you should. Don’t draw any old cup and saucer, draw the cup and saucer that is there and does that look like that? No, this line’s different, this shape is different, this is light at the front or dark at the back or the other way round, so record that on your sheet of paper. He just made me look.

And is that what you mean by pushing things further, or were there other aspects to that as well?

Betty Jackson Page 122 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12)

I think the whole thing was quite, was sort of more exciting than sitting learning about Napoleon’s domestic policy, really. So, because this is a long time ago and there were very few visual aids, you know. Teaching in school was somebody sitting or standing in front of you, in front of a blackboard, or you reading a textbook. That’s what it was. And we were in, you know, put this into context, a little town in the north of England, no, you know, Manchester was twenty miles away, which actually I think I’ve already said, by this time probably took half a day, but was quite difficult to get to. So where did you see the Mona Lisa? Where did you see Michelangelo? Where did you see a Titian? Where did you see any of this stuff that was happening? Where did you see anything remotely to do with modern art, you know, all the stuff that was at that time coming out of the Royal College for example, you know, Peter Blake and all of that music thing that was happening connected with artists and Hockney and Kitaj and you know, and all the Pop Art stuff, you saw it in books. I mean there was no realness – that’s not a word is it? Reality I mean, sorry. There was no reality about this at all. And he, at least you saw slides, at least you saw something different in this moment.

How big a group were you?

Oh, all of us. I suppose it was a class of about twenty-two. It got less when we were A level, it got down to about six or seven I think.

And what was your own relationship with him like?

Oh, friendly and you know, he was very encouraging. Especially when he found out I was going to art school and he was thrilled with that, thrilled.

Were you the only one in the class that did?

Absolutely [laughing] – I think I was the only one in the school, but yeah, people didn’t do that.

What did you most enjoy drawing at that time, or painting?

Betty Jackson Page 123 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12)

… I suppose people. I didn’t ever do landscapes. I had to do a street scene for my A level which was really shockingly bad. But I put people in that, so maybe it’s always been people.

You said earlier on you really like the act of…

Yeah.

Can you say a bit more about that?

To have a good drawing instrument, I mean whether it be you know, a beautifully sharpened soft pencil or a lovely pen, or a brush, is a physical pleasure. To be able to make a mark on anything, you know, a piece of wood, a piece of paper, a wall, anything. It’s a pleasurable thing for me and I don’t know why that is, it just is. As I’m sure it is with a lot of people, but it really is for me.

Is it the movement, is it the act, is it the result – what is it?

The whole thing. It’s actually the anticipation, it’s the doing of it and it’s the after too, it’s the whole thing, the whole event is pleasurable.

So, back to Rochdale and can you describe what your life was like, your routine, the learning?

It was five days a week and really quite disciplined because one had been disciplined at school so it didn’t make a difference, that needed a bit of time really, I suppose. So I used to get there fairly early in the morning, nine, nine thirty. And then the day was structured. It was structured, yeah. But then, and I think be there maybe till six or seven and then come home. Then you know, as we all got to know each other there were, you know we used to sort of do things socially, but that sort of takes a while really. But it was all still, you know, there was no great hiatus because I was still living at home, so you know, I was living my parents’ agenda, really I think.

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How did they react to your decision?

They were very supportive when they decided and yeah, very supportive. I think they quite liked it really. I think they liked it being a bit different. And it was obvious, you know by the first term, I absolutely loved it, so I’m sure, well having children myself you love it when they love it, it’s just fantastic when they find something that they enjoy.

And how did your sister react?

I think she was also pleased. By this time I think she was already married. Yeah, I think she, it was quite soon, she’s three and a half… she was married at twenty-one, so I would be how old? Seventeen, so yeah, she was probably, she went to Leeds University and did an economics thing, degree and then went to run Ormskirk Training College, to manage it, you know. And she got married in the August. Maybe that was the first year. So you know, she was off with her life and that was fine.

And can you remember any other reactions from the family or the village or anyone?

No, I can’t. I think it was maybe a little bit extraordinary, but I can’t… it was what I wanted to do and I think I was rather fixated with that as you are when you’re young. And I’m not sure I was ever aware of what was going on around me so much. I didn’t, I’m not sure I ever was, really. You know, I think when you’re that age, the most important thing is what you’re doing at a specific time really. I think it’s later you get into this worrying bit. But anyway. No, there’s a sort of a, no it was all very good fun, it was all very good.

You say that the day at Rochdale was structured, how was it structured?

There were classes, I mean there were things that one had to do, there was you know, work to be completed, there was a schedule to do and they were quite sort of tough on that, quite rightly I think and you know, having to do several things at once and there was a dissertation to do and there was, but it was all so hands-on and I’d never done that before, so the practical stuff was completely fabulous, I mean just completely extraordinary you know, to rip up cloth and stitch it down or paint over it or stick it on to something. It was Betty Jackson Page 125 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12) sort of like Blue Peter gone mad, you know. But actually all rather beautiful too. I mean to say it’s Blue Peter is churlish really, because it obviously wasn’t, but I’d never done, I’d never been immersed in something as I was when I got to Rochdale. It sort of was everything going on at once, all of your antennae you know, woken up, the ones that had lay dormant.

And can you remember a sort of typical you know, how the day was divided up, what you did when and you know, how big a part did the textile part play, for example?

After you’d spent the first – I don’t know whether it was the first term – I think you spent a week in each different discipline, so you went to sculpture, you went to drawing, you went to lithograph, you went to printmaking, you went to textiles and then the second two terms you sort of concentrated on what you’d decided to do, you know, they then split everybody up and you just made your choice and then you did what you did. But I had, I had no idea that there was so much on offer, because I’d never come across printmaking, I’d never, I didn’t know about the graphics side of the world at all, I had no idea about you know, how people became a sculptor. I mean I had no idea at all about it, so all of this thing was very new and very exciting. And so you know, I listened and learnt and did quite a lot of things that I would never have got involved with had I not gone there.

Can you remember particular projects that you worked on?

Yeah, I mean we had to sort of do, well I’d definitely decided that this was what, that I wanted to be a, do sculpture. And, but I think, well I don’t know quite why. I loved the idea of three dimensions I think, because I hadn’t done it before and so, but I’m allergic to plaster of Paris, which is what you use in the first instance, so I couldn’t do that any more because I came up in big red blotches. So I was upset about that and I think I actually would have done fine art if that hadn’t happened, but it was absolutely impossible and I couldn’t go in the studio without itching or you know, anyway. And so I suppose really, textiles was the second choice. And I think I was excited by the colour and the texture and what you could do and the fact that you could actually make things, although it didn’t ever include fashion. We didn’t really do, make clothes. We drew, I think and pretended to make clothes but I don’t think we did, I don’t remember making any clothes there. Maybe Betty Jackson Page 126 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12) we did. I think I only remember the excitement of putting different colours and textures and print together to create something different. And I enjoyed that.

And at what point did you discover that, this allergy to plaster?

Oh that was quite early on, actually in the first two weeks. So yeah, had to be removed from that week and so I went into, I went and played around with fabrics instead.

How did you feel about that discovery?

What, the discovery that I couldn’t do sculpture? Oh, well I was a bit upset really. I’m not sure, it’s a bit murky, the past really, because I think it was also to do with a bloke who was doing sculpture who was absolutely gorgeous and I think I probably fell in love with him really, which coloured my judgement somewhat. But he was very sweet and still saw me even if I’d chosen such a wussy subject as textiles, but anyway. And they were sort of, they were the most exciting lot I think, the fine artists. But I think I felt that when I got to Birmingham too. There’s something courageous about a fine artist I think.

How, why?

Because you’re creating something. I think it must be to do with my excitement about putting marks on paper I think, and being able to do that and then make something completely new and different that nobody’s ever done, that comes from you, from within, I think that that specific talent and to actually you know, almost let this happen and then, it’s very much part of you really, I think, I suppose it’s a bit more worthy than anything else, I think. To do with your soul I think, more than this fickle world of fashion I’ve ended up in.

And d’you feel that about anything else or just fine art?

No, I think fine art is, has a fairly hallowed position really in my head. And also maybe it’s something that I could never – it’s rather like you know, wanting to be a pianist and Betty Jackson Page 127 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12) realising that you’re not quite good enough and I think I realised early on that I wasn’t really quite good enough to be a fine artist.

Why?

Because everybody around me was producing fantastic work and I was sort of struggling and never satisfied and never, always disappointed with the results I think.

What sort of work were you doing at that time?

Figurative work, I mean there were lots of life drawing which was fantastic. I still love life drawing, I always say I’m going to go back to do a life drawing class because I’d love to do it. And then a lot of the others, well when I sort of decided to do textiles, then I sort of threw myself into that I think really, because that was also exciting and I think it made sense because it had a past as well and as I mentioned before, they had the most wonderful collection of Japanese and Chinese textiles. So I could sort of, I think I like when things are credible on that level too, I like the idea of it being rather wonderful in spite of you coming along and the fact that you discover it is also rather wonderful and it being civilised and appreciated long before your generation was around. So you know, all that hand painted Chinese silk and gold embroidery from India, I mean it’s just so beautiful, so I think that’s why I enjoyed it. I enjoyed fabric from the past. And plus, don’t forget this was the sixties, you know, so it was actually quite an exciting prospect to actually do, because it was revolution, you know. It was, things were happening, you know, it was an exciting time to – it was a bit behind, but nevertheless you know, Mary Quant was already doing it, Ossie Clark and Celia Birtwell and Alice Pollock were already doing it. I mean it was really fantastic what was happening on the High Street, you know, mini skirts and Twiggy and all of that when I was at Rochdale. And The Beatles and everything that surrounded that, so suddenly it all sort of fitted, I think. And there was colour, Carnaby Street, you know, it was pop stars and it just exploded.

And how did you know or how did you learn about all these things that were going on?

Betty Jackson Page 128 C1046/10 Tape 6 Side B (part 12)

It was there. I don’t know whether you do learn about it, it was part of our life, you know. By that time we were living the life, you know I was eighteen for goodness’ sake, it was, we went to see music, we went to nightclubs, we went to dance, we went to… it was great.

In Rochdale?

Rochdale and Manchester. By that time a couple of people had cars and you know, and that’s what you did, the weekends and yeah, it was great.

[End of Tape 6 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 129 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13)

Tape 7 Side A [part 13]

Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson on Thursday the twenty-fifth of November, starting tape seven.

So I think we were aware, well, certainly you know, coming from up north, you also forget that at that time everything was happening up north. You know, The Beatles were from Liverpool and so were most of the other groups that came and emulated them, you know, so there was a lot happening, almost locally. And there was, I mean we weren’t miles away from anywhere, the town had a cinema – two cinemas in fact – and it had a place where they had sort of groups coming, the Astoria, which was where I went to see The Beatles in fact, and there was somebody great on every Saturday. And there were folk clubs and pubs and there were, I mean there was a sort of quite a vibrant social… we didn’t just do nothing, you know, we weren’t tragically just sitting at home looking at each other. And my parents, I think I’ve already mentioned, were very social so you know, lots happened. And as the thing opened up and television became more and magazines became, you know, I got Honey, was it Honey or, yeah Honey magazine and you know, there was sort of information being put out there really. And there was Top of the Pops and Ready Steady Go and all of those music things happening, which one was a part of, was, you know, you just knew about, you just did, you just looked at. So yeah, I think you know, it’s just like a youth thing, you gravitate towards the bits that you like really.

What was it like, going to see The Beatles?

It was well, yeah it was great, it was, but you know again, when you’re in something you don’t realise the huge effect it’s going to have. It was quite early on in their career and I think they’d had their first number one or something, it was the time of She Loves You and I mean just, you know, as kids know today, we went and danced like maniacs and you know, walked home and snogged your boyfriend and went home, that was it, you know sort of actually what you did really. The same as people do now I suppose.

What sort of places did you dance in?

Betty Jackson Page 130 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13)

Well we did actually venture to Manchester a couple of times, because – what was that footballer called, the one who’s got the liver disease who was with Manchester for so long?

Eileen Hogan: You mean Georgie Best?

George Best.

Eileen Hogan: Sorry.

There was George Best, the footballer, who already had a nightclub in Manchester and that was rather swish and there was another one called The Jungfrau and it’s just what you wanted to hear, you know you wanted to hear great music, very loudly, drink a lot and have a good time, really. So they were sort of you know, nightclubs that we went to.

And who’s ‘we’?

Friends. I was a group I think of about four or five of us that actually hit it off and then did things together.

Four or five of you from where – how did you match up?

From Rochdale College, all of us doing the textiles and all of us, I suppose formed a little gang and just sort of hung out together I think.

Who were the others?

There was a girl called Regina who went on to be an embroiderer in her own right. There was a boy called Adrian Cartmell who was a brilliant designer, went to New York and has since died of AIDS. There was his girlfriend, except he was completely gay, but he sort of wasn’t allowed to be really up to that, so there was his girlfriend called Cindy White , who became a model in London and then actually went on to run Rifat Ozbek, was hugely successful. And there was another girl called Elaine who also did textiles, did woven Betty Jackson Page 131 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) textiles. And I think that’s all of us. And there was Regina’s husband, called John who was a graphic artist and worked on The Guardian in fact. He was groovy because he had a job. [laughs]

And what were they like – can you talk about somebody individually?

Everybody had long hair, everybody looked like Marianne Faithfull, everybody wore short skirts and white tights and flat Mary Jane shoes and it was a sort of uniform really and we all became very clothes conscious I think, we all became quite stylised because we’d made the decision to do that thing. So, and we all stuck false eyelashes on, individually, and looked ridiculous. And we all blocked our lips out with panstick and thought we were fabulous, but obviously we weren’t. Probably looked complete freaks, but we all thought we were pretty fabulous.

And can you remember more about the individuals as…?

Adrian was a brilliant dancer and he was very exciting and very good fun and funny. And he, his parents ran a pub in Rochdale and he was absolutely definitely gay right from the word go and everybody knew, but he insisted that he wasn’t and he had this very beautiful, quite shy girlfriend called Cindy who was also very, she was very beautiful, very very beautiful and she sort of was his trophy really, but they did actually eventually get married and it was a disaster from there on really, because then, finally when he came to London it was sort of, it was obvious that he was gay and so they… But it was all very amicable at the end. And he was very exciting and he sort of, he absolutely loved my mother and used to spend quite a lot of time at our house. And I think because she also was – I think I’ve said before – she was quite glamorous and stylish and he just absolutely adored her and would spend time in her presence even when I wasn’t there. So, but we used to sort of go off and do things, but I can’t, I don’t really know, you know it was coffee bar time. We used to waste time, I think, which is what you do isn’t it? You chat and you don’t do anything really very much. So that’s what we did really. Regina was much more organised and much more… and she got married to John very early on, and she came from the village just next to ours. And came from a large family. But was quite, I think I got in with a group of people who had very high standards. Regina was already on the course Betty Jackson Page 132 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) when I joined – and I can’t remember, we finished at the same time, so I can’t remember why that was, but I remember going to Rochdale on the first day or on the first week and asking her something - because she always looked fabulous, she had long black hair that was completely glossy and she did dress absolutely, she was like Cathy McGowan, she always dressed and she was immaculate, absolutely immaculate. And I remember I asked her something and she was very dismissive and turned round to somebody that she was sat with and said, ‘How dare that cheeky basic talk to me’, because that’s what we were referred to, you know, as we arrived, we were the basics. But actually we became quite good friends afterwards. And so I think I got in with the crowd that was quite talented, early on really, because Adrian went on to do fantastic things and you know, really awfully he got AIDS, but anyway. So I think we were quite a sort of, you know, our standards were quite high, really. We were probably quite snotty about the whole thing, really.

How d’you mean your standards, your standards in what?

In our work and in what we thought about things. And we formed a little sort of you know, group I suppose and we all supported each other. I think you know, we were the textiles bit and I also, because it was something I loved and I started to produce I think probably some decent stuff eventually instead of lagging behind all the brilliant drawers and sculptors in the other group, at least I could sort of hold my own a little bit in this area, really. So, it was all, you know, we all, I mean I think since, I mean going into art colleges you do find that if there’s a nucleus or if there’s a couple of people who lead, you know, it really does make things go along quite well and I’m sure that that’s where we were. We were all, you know, it was sort of competitive but not, really. We wouldn’t have elbowed each other in the ribs, but nevertheless the onus was, we were motivated together, I think.

And who was doing the leading?

I can’t, you know, all of us. All of us were doing different things, because Regina really, she didn’t go on to do fashion, she stayed in embroidered textiles. Adrian came with me to Birmingham. Elaine also came to Birmingham but decided to do woven textiles, not fashion. So, and Adrian and I became absolutely great friends and you know, when I had my accident he was fantastic. So we, you know, we knew each other very well really and Betty Jackson Page 133 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) spent a lot of time in Birmingham together. So I think we were all doing different things but there was a sort of you know, respect really.

And when you say you had high standards in what you thought about things, what did you think about things?

Oh, we were very excited and we knew whatever it was we could probably do it better. But it was a very exciting time, as I said. You know, there was new music, there was new art, there was new fashion and it was available for the first time. You know, there was a whole new generation that you didn’t have to look like your mother or you know, you didn’t have to look old. I mean even my sister’s generation, there was a sort of a joyfulness of youth suddenly with ours that really hadn’t happened before. I mean when you think of all of that, I mean I suppose it was something to do with the Pill and us all being independent and all of that stuff, but it was a very exciting time, I think. So there was a lot going on for us to imagine we were part of.

Did Adrian already know he was gay at that time?

We never referred to it. But he, in his manner and his mannerisms was completely.

And did you understand what that was?

Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. He was just a nice guy.

And how did his girlfriend react?

Well, I mean he must have been, I mean she was very happy I think. I mean she was very happy. They were great together, they had good fun. But it was a different thing, also you know, I think moral standards were different as well. You know, you certainly didn’t have loads of sexual partners at that time so you know, we were all discovering things, but certainly we weren’t rampantly jumping into bed with everybody, because you didn’t. And it really does sound odd, but people didn’t, there were lots of people who didn’t at that time. Sounds very odd now, doesn’t it? Betty Jackson Page 134 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13)

What about yourself?

No I wasn’t either. I was you know, I was really not.

How much did you think about such things or how big a part of your daily life?

Oh I always had a boyfriend, didn’t ever not have a boyfriend. Never finished with one until I had another one on the horizon. Absolutely couldn’t possibly not have a boyfriend. Dear me, it would be social suicide. But didn’t always see them all the time, you know. Kept time for the boyfriend and then time for friends, you know as well. So often, often went to these Manchester clubs and things with the group of us and you know, didn’t see him, or whoever it was at the time.

And can you remember any of your boyfriends over that time?

Yes, but I’m not sure we need to discuss those really [laughing], I think it’s way off the subject. Certainly nobody of any importance now in my life.

And you know about what happened to the group afterwards, how is it that you know? I mean did you maintain contact or…?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Until, well until quite recently really. Yeah. Still in touch, with a few people.

And can you remember how and where you first gravitated towards each other?

No, small group of people, easy. You know, who d’you like, who d’you not like, who do you, you know, it’s a personality thing isn’t it, you know. You just, how d’you make friends, that’s a tricky question really, I absolutely, you just do. You go to like minded people or you go, there’s something that bonds you, I’ve no idea what it is, but you do. That happens all the way through life, you know, you go to a dinner party; there’s some Betty Jackson Page 135 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) people that you like, or you go to a party and you meet people who you hit it off with – why does that happen? I’ve no idea, but it’s happened all along my life really.

Can you say a bit more about the group and the sort of ethos of the group?

Well I think probably in, you know where we were in the world, although you know, I keep saying that we were cut off when we were up north, I mean it wasn’t so cut off and it wasn’t so uncivilised, but I think probably you know, within the context of… the art college was something special in Rochdale, I mean… and probably we felt very special. I think it was a very small college too and we were made to feel that we, you know right from the word go, that we were something different and the aesthetic bit was talked a lot about and so I think as a group we probably thought we were very special and individual and that was encouraged very much there. We were certainly not, you know, part of the machine that churns students out. The individuality of us all was very important and I think that was then, I think it’s less so now. But I think we were big fish in a small pond, probably.

And were you special within the college as well?

Oh probably. No, not probably. Probably not I think. I have no recollection of any special treatment, I have no recollection of… we were on a course and we were doing what was required of us and having a good time, you know. And discovering things and, you know and being sad and happy together and living our life rather joyfully really.

Tell me some more about early sessions of actually working with cloth.

It all took place in a sort of room where you had your own sort of little space and you were encouraged to collect things and appreciate things and know about form and colour and shape and texture. And there was a whole library of fabulous just bits of things, oh kimonos and you know, and Japanese costumes and Indian costumes and you know, and old Indian rugs and textiles, you know, that were all fabulous. So all of that was sort of there on the spot really, and we – I can’t even remember now projects, but I suppose we were set projects and we then interpreted them and we presented our work, as a group. Betty Jackson Page 136 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13)

You know, individually to the group and we were criticised. But it was very, we sat in a room with the lecturer, or the you know, whoever was in charge of the session and you know, it was constant supervision really. It was constant, there was somebody there the whole time. You know, it was fairly relaxed I remember, but nevertheless it wasn’t as informal as it was when I got to big college. So, a sort of a, in between moment really.

Can you reconstruct a typical session if there is such a thing, or a particular one that you remember…

No.

…of working with the cloth?

No, I just remember that, I remember loving you know, the different feels of and learning that one was georgette and it was transparent, but not quite as transparent as chiffon and one was satin and that was shiny because of the way it was woven, and one was taffeta and one was organdie and you know, and one was velvet and they cut it and you could have… and all of that sort of thing, you know, I learnt and the difference between a wool and a silk, which one doesn’t know unless one is told. And the difference between a synthetic fibre. And of course there was a lot of that around because nylon had been discovered and there was things like Acrylan and Orlon and all of those ICI fibres that were, bung in your washing machine and they come out exactly the same. So there was a difference between you know, natural cotton and a manmade fibre. So all of that we looked about and learnt about and touched and felt and you know, that’s what we did really.

And what was the context of this – in other words, were you being steered toward a particular end result or in any direction?

We were encouraged to – I think the end result was some sort of wall-hanging, you know, or something that was two-dimensional rather than three. Yeah, I did produce a couple of those. And it was, I suppose those were the end… but the process in order to get to that point involved drawing, involved research, involved you know, going to the library and Betty Jackson Page 137 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) looking at things, or going to the local Whitworth’s museum and looking at things or looking at things organically. You know, all those sort of things that you do at art college.

What, how would the research help creating a wall-hanging?

Texture, you know, rock formations, plants, water running through a valley, sea, soil, you know elemental things really. Fruit, what happens, the difference between an orange skin inside and out and pomegra… and all of that sort of stuff, you know, looking at things, how they’re made and the inside of them, I think. Always quite fascinating.

What were you actually looking up when you went to the library?

Oh, I can’t remember even going to the library actually, but I’m sure I must have done. History of costume, history of textiles, you know, all about the East India Company, why… We were also in the middle of the cotton industry, you know, Lancashire cotton trade, so it was very local and I knew a few people who had cotton mills you know, so I suppose that was also quite relevant. And there was a pride there in the area, I suppose about what the local produce was about. So it was learning about you know, that and the industrial technique of it.

How did the cotton industry in Rochdale sort of impact on you or you on it?

Oh it was just there. It sort of, you might as well ask somebody who comes from a Yorkshire mining town how did it impact, because it’s just there. You know, it’s everybody’s livelihood, or a huge amount of people and so everybody you know is connected with this industry in some way, or people that you know. So you know, it wasn’t, it was just part of the make-up of our lives really, a piece of a jigsaw.

And at what point did you start to think about fashion?

Well that must have been in the last two terms, because it’s what I applied to go to Birmingham for. And I honestly don’t remember making the jump from you know, feeling the difference between taffeta and satin and then thinking, well I can make an outfit out of Betty Jackson Page 138 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) it. I think we all made our own clothes as well, I think we did. And we all sort of dressed up and we all, you know suddenly you didn’t, I’d spent sort of A levels wanting to look exactly like my best friend, you know, or a version of and suddenly you realise that it’s a good thing to be individual I think. And that’s to do with age as well, it’s not necessarily to do… And also this thing about encouraging us to be special, I think we were, we were big fish in very small ponds, so I suppose that was part of it. But I don’t remember, I don’t remember it being you know, a road to Damascus moment or anything. I think it was, it sort of happened, you know, that that’s where… I wouldn’t have liked to spend my time doing embroidery on canvasses or whatever, or frames, because for me that was a poor man’s fine art, so I knew I didn’t want to do that so you know, I had to use fabric in a different way. I knew I would be bored being a textile designer and I didn’t want to do that. I suppose it was a process of elimination, which is rather shocking, but it is. The truth!

Can you say anything more about your textiles teacher?

Yes, she was called Annie Booth and she was completely ferocious. And her husband also worked in the college. I’m not sure whether he ran it. He was called Professor Henry Booth. I think they were both professors, they’d both done some sort of degree somewhere. But in actual fact they were quite well thought of, you know, within the academic circles. I mean everybody knew that they had this marvellous collection and they were considered to be authorities on this thing. And she was already quite elderly, you know we always thought of her as middle aged, so it wasn’t as if we had sort of a young exciting person bouncing through. But she did know her stuff and she held on to the whole thing you know, with a grip of iron I think, really. She was very moody and you know, you discovered early on that it was easier to, your life was better if you didn’t cross her path, so you didn’t and it was easy not to really.

And what happened if you did?

Oh, she’d just make life difficult for you, you know. Things, cupboards would be locked and not unlocked when you needed them and it was just difficult, difficult you know, little Betty Jackson Page 139 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side A (part 13) bit of a power thing really that she had. So she just made things… But a lot of people do that in life, don’t they? It’s just the bit that they need to cling on to. It’s an odd thing.

What did you think of her?

I’m sure we thought she was an old-fashioned frump and rather a sort of, she was a means to an end I think really, and became irrelevant very, very quickly after the year had passed. But loved what she did, absolutely loved what she did and was just one of those people who’d been there too long really. I mean I don’t know whether they do this, I think they move people on or you have to have a bit of your own work going on now in colleges, which is much healthier than you know, sitting like a praying mantis waiting for the next group to come and bully, I think really.

[End of Tape 7 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 140 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14)

Tape 7 Side B [part 14]

And what did she look like?

She was small, dark hair, rather round, I mean very sort of, had buck teeth, but was always sort of well groomed I think, yeah. And… she looked vaguely Jewish I think, I think they probably were. They didn’t have any children either, which I don’t know quite why, but they didn’t. And she looked like somebody’s aunt, really, you know. She wasn’t a great artistic figure by any means, but she was in control of that area that I’d chosen, but by then, you know as I said before, I knew I was on the right path, I knew it was absolutely, I had no regrets at all, I mean I knew that I wanted to carry on with this thing and you know it was only the beginning and already I’d been introduced to things that I hadn’t ever dreamed of so, you know, in lots of different ways, because as I said, one of my friends worked on The Guardian and was a graphic designer and you know, there was all of that stuff about setting type and typography and why a newspaper looks like it looks and you know, involving design. You know, the word design came into my world, you know, not artist, designer, which, for the first time really when I was at Rochdale. So you know, rather than getting, I think what I remember, the global effect was it absolutely introduced me to lots of things and it made me realise that actually I was only at the beginning and there was a whole lot more out there. So you know, if anything, that’s really what it did and it showed me that there were, you know, there were institutions where the body of people were concerned with the design of something and the artistic value of something rather than anything else, and that was the most important thing. And that was great because I’d never had that before. So, yeah I think it was a good thing. But plus, within the context of you know, us all being eighteen, nineteen and like I said, having a wild social life. So, that’s what I remember about Rochdale. And then, time to apply to DipAD college, HND college, you know, the big three year course. So we then looked at all of the prospectuses and at that time Hornsey had a sit-in, Paris had dug up the cobbles in the streets, you know art colleges were rocking, you know they were really happening, it was fantastic. So we all sort of wanted to rather be part of this. That’s when my dad [laughs] once again put his foot down and said Birmingham is about as far south as you’re going to go, madam. I think he thought that if anything went wrong, he could whiz down, scoop me up and bring me back, you know. However, we went to see Birmingham College, we Betty Jackson Page 141 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14) went to see Manchester College and we went to see another one in London, I’m not sure whether it was Ravensbourne, on their open days. And in fact Birmingham won hands down because it was brand new and it had, it just had the most fabulous textile department, woven textiles, printed textiles and fashion, all in the same building. And so, you know, it wasn’t a struggle at all. I was very happy to be part of that. And a few of us applied. Well, Regina, Adrian, Elaine and myself applied and Regina didn’t get in and ended up at Manchester, her second choice. Elaine, Adrian and I did get in and Elaine then went on to specialise in woven textiles and Adrian did fashion with me.

And can you say a bit more about why Birmingham, as you said, won hands down?

Simply because of the facilities it offered and it, you know as I said before, it had brilliant equipment, it had a brilliant department, it was really impressive, it was a very new building, you know part of Aston University, it was all very new, it had fantastic student union. No, it was a very exciting place. And there was also, there was Birmingham itself was actually quite exciting at that time, it had a lot of things happening musically. Because music had changed, it really wasn’t The Beatles, it was people like The Moody Blues and who was the other one? Anyway, all of those people, Georgie Fame and they were all, it was all happening round, there was much more rock than just what The Beatles were doing by then, three years on, three years down the line. And it was an exciting place. It was good. And Spaghetti Junction had just been built. It was, you know, there was a sort of feeling of excitement, of regeneration, the Bull Ring had just been built. It was all very new, very modern, very you know, happening really.

And you emphasised the word design a minute or two ago, what did the word design mean to you?

Well not very much, really. I think that one is unaware that everything is designed, everything. One is unaware at that point of the role of the designer. I hadn’t ever met a product designer, I hadn’t ever met a designer I don’t think, at all. Until I went to Birmingham and then you know, the world had opened a little bit, found out a little bit in Rochdale, but there it was a huge art college with product design, architecture, interior Betty Jackson Page 142 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14) design, graphics, plus all of the textiles, plus a fine art department, so you know, there was a huge amount going on there.

You mentioned your friend who worked for The Guardian, did that conjure up any particular sort of image or association for you?

Not really, I mean he was a graphic artist so he worked, and he must have been slightly older than Regina and have been to art college before. Or indeed he’d done an apprenticeship I think, and actually then went just on to you know, get a job which was what a lot of people did. So no, he didn’t… And he married Regina subsequently and they stayed up in the north so no, I wouldn’t say that he had a huge impact on me. It was actually when we got to Birmingham and you know, and you realise the enormity of the world, the possibilities really I think as well of a career in art.

So tell me some more about applying to Birmingham and then actually going to study there.

Well, we applied and I went down for an interview and…

We being who, sorry?

Well, the four of us, I said before that we all applied and I think we all had an interview on the same day. I seem to remember my father driving us all down and staying for lunch and then driving back and waiting to hear. And then we got in, except Regina – that was a bit tragic really, she was very upset. But then got in immediately on her second choice at Manchester. And then, you know, preparations for leaving home really, which was a first. So went into, accommodation had to be organised and all of that stuff. And then enrolment day. We went to stay in halls of residence. Elaine and I sort of hooked up together because we knew each other and we went to stay in halls of residence, which I think you probably had to do in your first year. I think it was more or less a rule unless you actually lived, unless you came from the area, I think you had to do it. So we were in this horrible hall of residence where you had you know, a horrible little room with a bed and a table in it, just like university halls of residence are, absolutely ghastly, and a Betty Jackson Page 143 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14) communal kitchen. And as soon as we could, we moved out of there. And on the first enrolment day, stood in the queue enrolling, next to this person called Heather who became my closest friend there, really, just because we were stood next to each other I suppose. And we ended up living together for three years and we’re still in touch and she’s great.

What was she like?

She was from Liverpool and she was absolutely gorgeous and full and energy and brilliant, much better than me at everything, at illustration and at fashion and she dressed particularly well, just for the time, you know, she just was, she just was great. She just had a fantastic personal style, came from, had a brother and lived in Wallasey and had come from quite a difficult background; her father had died and her mother had brought them both up, so her mother worked so there wasn’t a lot of money around. But it was, she was just really good fun and we hit it off straightaway, stood in the queue behind each other and then discovered we were on the same course and yeah, and so we just did really, it was funny.

In what way was she gorgeous?

She was small and – well no, she was quite, no she’s not small, she’s smaller than me, but you know, slight, great figure, lots of energy, used to sort of run everywhere, used to wear funny tartan knee socks and just lots of energy, just lots and lots and lots of energy and very talented. Great, just great.

What sort of colouring?

Very pale skin, very dark hair, freckles, a huge wide beautiful smile. Not much make-up, but we didn’t really. And just beautiful; long dark hair. Looked rather French, looked rather sort of like a French student rather than anybody English, she looked a bit international.

And how did she dress? Betty Jackson Page 144 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14)

Well, I can remember that she wore little short Shetland sweaters with shirts underneath and pleated skirts, knee length pleated skirts, or long shorts or, with knee socks or – it was just what was the fashion then, it was you know, end of the sixties, beginning of the seventies. Mini skirts. Lots of tartan, she used to wear lots of tartan. But we used to, she introduced me to Oxfam shopping. We used to get second-hand clothes and put them together and cut them up and make them and you know, stitch things on to them and things like that.

Like what?

[laughs] Oh well, you know, leather bits on sweaters and we used to sort of wash things and there’s always something actually, when we finally lived, when we lived together in the second term or the third term, whenever it was, we had a flat and there was always somebody dying something in the washing machine. [laughs] And we used to sort of you know, dye everything red one week and just wear everything red and then we’d dye everything blue the following week and it was just funny. We just got on very well.

And why d’you think she liked you, what drew her to you?

Oh! I’ve absolutely no idea at all, absolutely no idea at all. No idea. But we did. You know, we just – she had a lot of, I’m saying she had a lot of friends, we had a lot of friends who were similar and I don’t know, there was just empathy there from the beginning.

What was her surname?

Johnson. Heather Johnson.

What sort of place did you move into together?

Oh, the most awful places we lived in and it seemed like we moved every six weeks. We always went into sort of places with horrible landlords that were only half finished or needed to be painted or they were sort of condemned houses and you know, everything had Betty Jackson Page 145 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14) to be really cheap. But by that time there was, we had got together, I had got together, there were sort of four of us who used to sort of meet up and spend time together and we decided to move in, because it was always multiple accommodation, you could never have the luxury of living alone. I don’t think ever we wanted to though. So there was a girl called Holly Hollington who’d come from London who was absolutely mad, but did the most beautiful drawings, she was very clever and considered really one of the best on the course. And then there was Belinda Williamson, who had chosen to do printed textiles. And I can’t remember why we all met, it must have been, I think at the beginning of the three-year course, we all had to do a month in each, so we all went into woven textiles, knitted textiles, printed textiles and then fashion, so there was probably a big intake of people and we all knew each other at the beginning and then separated off into our various areas. So we must have all met up at the beginning and Holly was really pretty, looked like a little Sarah Moon picture. And she was the sort of really crazy one. Belinda came from a very well off family and had been to Cheltenham Girls College and I was sort of somewhere in the middle and then you know, Heather was the one with both feet firmly on the ground and really definitely had no spare cash and had to do things. So it was a good mix, you know we all brought something I think, different to each other and we all got on very well. And we all, we all had, we managed to find places to live that we all had our own room, but then there was a sort of communal room as well, so we never shared rooms. And we lived in the most awful places – one place I remember didn’t have a back wall at all. [laughs] I mean it’s just bizarre. And another place that was condemned with you know, like boards up at the window. And finally, in our last year we found a lovely little house that we sort of made our own and it was a little sort of independent house. I mean all for nothing a week, you know, so we just, we needed the money to do other things so nobody wanted to pay money on rent. But by then you know, we all made it into our own space, you know, painted the walls, hung fabric everywhere you know, made shelves out of bricks and planks, I mean that’s what you did and you know, we all helped each other. And Belinda came to live with us because she had a car, early on she had a car so I think that’s why she joined our gang really, she could drive us everywhere. It was great.

What d’you mean, a house with no back wall?

Betty Jackson Page 146 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14)

I know, it was extraordinary. You went in the front door and Holly’s bedroom was first and then my bedroom was next and Belinda’s was on the other side and it was the ground floor of building and you went through to the kitchen and there was, the whole side wall of the kitchen, there was the sink which wasn’t there, hadn’t been built, it just was sort of struts. So then there was a sort of funny garden. And then Heather’s room was right at the back, was sort of like a little annexe thing that was built out into the garden. She had all her four walls [laughing], there just wasn’t a wall in the kitchen.

D’you mean it was open to the elements?

It was open to the elements, yeah. Extraordinary. Well we sort of found bits of doors and things from skips and propped them along there. And the landlord, I remember he used to promise he would build it. [laughs] But he didn’t really care, it’s extraordinary. We were there, we weren’t there for very long, I think we moved. And also nobody, we didn’t ever want to pay for it during the holidays because all of us either went our various ways in the holidays, so we always moved out of anywhere during the holidays, because nobody had any money to do that. So then we always had to find somewhere else, you know what I mean. Goodness knows, I can’t remember at all how we managed, but there must have been a lot of property around to let in those days, you know, lots of people let to students. I mean it’s a big, because there was Aston University and Birmingham University, there was a huge population of students in Birmingham, massive student union, so I suppose there was a whole network of you know, places that did student lets.

And in what way was Holly mad?

Well, I think she was the most sophisticated on every level, from us, because first of all she lived in London and she took drugs and had sex and did all of those things before any of us did, so was skilled in all of those areas [laughing] before we were. So she was, but she was absolutely lovely. She also went to, lived in, lives in Los Angeles, became an illustrator. She did the most beautiful drawings, did the most beautiful drawings. And very quickly went out with the coolest guy in Birmingham who was very well off and had something to do with the music business and got us into every single club free, which was great. That was why she was there, you see. Betty Jackson Page 147 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14)

And what sort of drugs did she take?

Oh, nothing very important I think. Whatever was around, really.

How did you know?

Everybody did it. It was part of life at a party. Lots of parties, really.

And you too?

Er yeah, there was a time where you wanted to see what it did.

Can you be more specific about it?

[laughs] I’m not sure I want to do that, really. It was, it never was very important to me at all, but I certainly did want to see for myself and that’s really as far as – it never took over my life to any degree at all and it was a bit like you know, I smoked cigarettes at that time as well and it was all to do with being part of something that was going on really, and wanting to push things further, wanting to have the experience, as you do when you’re young, but it certainly wasn’t anything that became a big part of my life or I was in any way dependent on it. And I didn’t go out of my way, I was a very passive one. If somebody else had some, you know, pass a joint round, then you did, but apart from that I never went out of my way to purchase myself, because I couldn’t afford it. It was a period that we all experimented and that was it.

So what singled Holly out as being more in that direction?

She was more bizarre, she was more, either she looked completely different. There was nothing sort of average about Holly. She was exceptional in every level, really. She was very pretty, she was thinner than everybody, you know she put herself, she had great personal style again, she just wore more things at any one time than anybody else I knew.

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Like what?

Like you know, four rings on her fingers, on each hand and bangles and necklaces and things in her hair and you know, and stars stuck on her face. You know, socks over tights over, with two skirts and layering up and all of that stuff. She was just extraordinary, really.

And what did you think of her and her madness, as it were?

Well, it was exciting, it was great, it was lovely, wonderful to see.

And the drugs and the sex, I mean what did you think of that?

Wonderful, exciting, great.

So there were the four of you together – how did your group compare with the group that you’d had at Rochdale?

Oh, I think much more flamboyant, much more in control, probably much more directional. We, you know, we knew what we were doing, we knew there was an end, we knew what we supposed to be, we were creating things for the first time I think, really. So it was much more, it was further along the line really. It was much more concentrated, it was much more energetic, it was much, you know, it was for real, really. As much as anything can be for real. We still wasted a huge amount of time, we still you know, played around, we still made huge mistakes, we still did great things. You know, it’s a period where – and don’t forget, you know, this was the first time I’d been away from home or so, so you know it was a period of experimentation on lots of levels. You were looking after yourself, you were, you know, forming new relationships, you were being creative in a creative environment which you’d never been, because almost you know, all of us really up until that point had sort of gone home at the end of the day really, so stopped living parents’ agenda as well. Made things happen yourself, less reliant, you know, independent really I suppose. So on lots of levels, it’s not just a work level. There are lots of levels you develop when you hit that stage I think. Betty Jackson Page 149 C1046/10 Tape 7 Side B (part 14)

Were you ever homesick? No, I remember when I got there, I had a boyfriend from home and I sort of missed him a bit, but dumped him fairly early on ‘cos there was you know, much better stuff really and what’s the point in doing that when it’s you know, there’s something more exciting really. So got rid of him fairly quickly. I can’t remember being homesick. And it wasn’t that far away, you know it was an hour down the motorway, an hour and a half maybe, and I didn’t ever feel, I must have telephoned fairly regularly, I didn’t ever feel abandoned or anything like that and I didn’t ever feel not cherished. I don’t know whether they missed me, but you know, I went home at least once a term and at the end of term. I don’t remember being homesick at all.

And how did your, this group of four young women relate to the other friends who’d come with you from Rochdale, Adrian and so on?

Well, Adrian was, found a flat fairly close by and was still very much involved with Cindy who used to visit him regularly and still you know, refused to admit or acknowledge his homosexuality, and everybody kept up the pretence, it was odd really. But he loved women, he loved women, he appreciated women big time, he was just fantastic. And we were in the same group and we used to see a lot of each other really. You know, spend a long time together, long moments together, all of us either in the bar or in the canteen or doing whatever you do. Not much work, I think.

New friends with older friends.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because the fashion group also were a bit on their own, you know, it was a huge college and you tended to stick in your department, really. And also, yes, I mean I think you did really.

[End of Tape 7 Side B]

Betty Jackson Page 150 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15)

Tape 8 Side A [part 15]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson. It’s the second of December 2004, a Thursday and we’re starting tape eight. And we ended the last session Betty by talking about Birmingham, your studies there, but perhaps we could talk a little bit more about the actual training you received and you know, what it involved and what classes you went to and so on.

Well I did, I was accepted to do, well we always said it was a degree, but of course it wasn’t in those days, so it was a sort of diploma in art and design, because I suppose we were quite lowly citizens in those days. But anyway, it was a diploma in art and design, fashion and textiles, so that’s what I was accepted for. And the first year was a little bit like foundation course; you sort of went around the various disciplines within the faculty of fashion and textiles and then specialised, you know, decided in the last term which one you were going to go for, or in some cases which one you had to do because you were hopeless at all the others or whatever. And then went from there, so it wasn’t until I suppose the second year that I really you know, got to grips with clothes, I suppose, but anyway. It was a very good faculty at Birmingham; it was very modern, it had marvellous equipment, it was teeming with technology people eager to sort of make these machines work for you and I think it was quite a sort of, I mean it felt really quite thriving and quite exciting. Now whether or not that was in comparison to sleepy small Rochdale I don’t know, but I think we all felt we were in a bit of a sort of metropolis situation. But then Birmingham itself was quite exciting. It had a huge influx of money, the Bull Ring had just been built, Spaghetti Junction had opened, it was you know, it was sort of being promoted as the centre of Great Britain I suppose, really. And that’s what we felt, we felt we were at the centre of things. Never really worried that we weren’t in London and I don’t know quite why that was. I suppose we were sort of arrogant altogether and so it didn’t matter so much. Now I can’t imagine being anywhere other than London. But certainly nobody ever said it was sort of a second thing or, and I certainly wasn’t aware of the power of St Martins or Ravensbourne or what was then Hornsey, which is now Middlesex, d’you know what I mean, so, but no we were quite excited I think, the first year.

Betty Jackson Page 151 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15)

And this equipment you’ve mentioned, I mean what sort of equipment was it?

Oh, well sort of modern knitting machines. The print department, printed textile department was you know, had sort of power silk screen things in it and you know, it was all generally very modern, clean, spacious, well lit. You know, it certainly wasn’t one of these sort of grubby attic things at all, it was… And it was set in an area that was I suppose quite park-like. You know, every window you looked out of you saw sort of rolling lawns and things and it was next to sort of Aston University, so there was a huge populace of students, which always makes something quite buzzy I think. And the student union was a very central building right bang in the middle of the campus. And so I think e thought, you know, we were part of something great, because we were sort of joined on to a university, so there was a lot of action and a lot of things going on really.

And can you say a bit more about the layout of the place, the appearance?

Oh, modern building. You know, glass doors everywhere, lifts everywhere. Spacious building, drawing studios big, well lit. Design studios big, well lit. We were on one floor – the fashions floor, now, I can’t remember where we were when we were in the first year, but I remember the fashion studio was at sort of one end of the whole building so it stretched the breadth of the building and had windows all around it and huge big cutting tables and then surrounded by machines, you know flatbed machines and buttonhole machines and zigzag machines and cutting tables and just the sort of general paraphernalia of a studio, really. We all had a space within that that we sort of called our own, I think. And then the printed textiles department was downstairs and so was the knitting department. And they also had an embroidery department, which I think, you know because it was so concentrated and because there was so much, it wasn’t just an isolated fashion department, d’you know what I mean? There was a lot of information, a lot of lovely things lying around, there was a lot of lovely things on the wall. I suppose it was quite a sort of inspirational place really.

And how did things, you know, when you came in, sort of how did you manoeuvre round the building – can you remember?

Betty Jackson Page 152 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15)

Manoeuvre round the building?

Well I mean the relation of you know, the textile area or the knitting or…?

Well it was all in the same area, it was sort of in like one wing. So it was on, I think two floors. I think it was two, possibly three, although I can’t remember the third. I think it was only a two storey building with general offices and things on the corridor and then the studios down the end of the corridor. I mean I remember it was a pleasant place. Came in the main entrance and turn left. I mean I haven’t been back there since I went. [laughing] It’s quite a long time ago and it’s probably completely changed by now. But I mean access was easy, you know, there was a sort of central canteen. It was, because it was newly built, I suppose they’d thought of this flow of traffic and they’d thought of a student sort of existence and it was you know, pleasant, you walked in, the cafeteria, the bar was sort of on the right so there was always a sort of rendezvous point and then people dispersed from there. Fine art were on the other side, architecture was on the other side, fashion and textiles you turned left for and other, the painting studios were sort of way off on the right, so you know, I just sort of remember it being quite a busy place, really I suppose.

And the foundation course, you arrive, your first day, your first week – how did things proceed from there?

The first year you mean – foundation actually was in Rochdale, so the first year of the three-year.

Well you referred to it I think as a sort of foundation…?

Yes, I said it was a sort of foundation, but it was like the foundation course. The first year you did all these different disciplines. Well you had to enrol, so I think we stood in a queue and waited to give our names in, thinking all the time that they’d maybe made a mistake and you wouldn’t be on this list and you’d have to go back home or something awful. So we sort of queued up, and that’s where I met one of these people who became a great friend, because I was stood next to her in the queue, so that was Heather Johnson and we sort of – I think the relationship must have started there on the first day, really. We just Betty Jackson Page 153 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15) talked and she was also doing fashion and I think afterwards we must have just sat next to each other, because the other person I had come down with, Elaine, had decided to do woven textiles, so I think we were immediately split up into different groups. And then there was Adrian. I think what they tended to do was if you came from the same foundation course, they dispersed you so that you wouldn’t actually, so that you got to know other people rather than… So we were all split up into groups and we went, we then were given an agenda and we spent, what you did was you spent a month in each different discipline. In between times you did drawing and history of art - history of art was in a different building across the other side of Birmingham by the town hall – and you know, general research and went and wasted an awful lot of time and hung out a lot and did things that students do.

And what can you remember about the people who taught you?

I can remember they were all quite old, I think that was the general sort of thinking really. The technicians were really quite old. Certainly the fashion people were quite old. There was a woman running the course who was called Marjorie Watts and she was the head of the whole school, the head of the faculty was, he was a bloke called Donald Tomlinson who looked a bit like Dirk Bogarde in that sort of rather louche sort of way, smoked all the time and was gay in the same way that Donald Tomlinson was, and Marjorie Watts was unmarried, but really quite, she was quite stylish, she always looked great, she had very short dark hair and she mostly dressed in black, really in quite a sort of chic way. But then after that the other members of staff were really not, you know, anything extraordinary really. I remember there was Mrs Williams who was the technician in the fashion school and really she didn’t get, I think this is still the case though with technicians, if you didn’t get on with the technician you really couldn’t get any work done at all because they’d make things very difficult for you. And really I’m afraid to say I think that probably still happens in BA courses up and down the country. These people have a small amount of power and wield it. [laughs] Anyway. But then, when we were in our second year, Zandra Rhodes suddenly appeared on the scene, which was fantastic. Really because you know, she’s always looked the way she looks, but you can imagine her sort of thirty years ago, or maybe it’s forty years ago I don’t know, it was just fantastic. She had started, she was still in the partnership and I don’t know whether the partnership with Sylvia Ayton Betty Jackson Page 154 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15) had finished by then, but she had this little shop called The Fulham Road Clothes Shop where she printed clothes, printed textiles and then made them into scarves and the sort of thing that she does now. And this was extraordinary because it was just sort of after the magnificence of Mary Quant and you know, everybody had sort of got over that and were looking for the next big thing really, so it was – I think it must have been slightly before Quorum and Ossie Clark and Celia Birtwell, although they must have been just coming out of the Royal, I think at that time when I was still at college. And you know, there were people like Stirling Cooper, Sheridan Barnett, Sheila Browne, Jane Whiteside , Antony… Antony – oh God, what’s his name? Anyway, there’s another one, great one, called Antony… Oh this’ll be terrible because if he ever listens to this he’ll be so annoyed that I can’t remember his name. Can’t remember his name. My fault, not his. Who were all sort of young designers, but actually sort of doing it, so there was a sort of lot going on. Biba was just about to move into Derry and Tom’s. There was action on the fashion front, really in England at that time. So to get Zandra Rhodes up there, poor thing obviously had to subsidise her life, you know, by teaching and she used to come up and sail through college and promptly fall asleep because she’d been up all night printing or something, poor thing, and sleep for most of the morning, after giving a brief and then sort of, she was just brilliant. She doesn’t remember any of it, I mean I’ve often talked to her about it, she doesn’t sort of remember anything. But the best thing was of course she had access to this sort of music thing that was happening in London, so we used to design clothes for Julie Driscoll and you know, all of her projects were to do with exciting stuff like that. So it was really, she was the sort of light at the end of the tunnel really, and inspirational, you know.

Where did she sleep?

Oh on the cutting table. She just used to sort of curl up and go to sleep. Or she just used to be sat there and suddenly she just put her head – I think she’s the sort of person who can sleep… if you ever go to dinner with Zandra Rhodes, she often goes to sleep in the middle of dinner and then wakes up and carries on the conversation. It’s really, I think, I don’t know why it is, but she’s obviously trained herself to do that. But you do notice that in the middle of a conversation her eyes will close, not on purpose or, it just happens I think. [laughs] I think. Betty Jackson Page 155 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15)

And what would you and the other students be doing while she was sleeping?

Drawing away furiously in order to impress her the moment she woke up. So you know, there was a sort of group and it was a chatty thing. Just like studios are today, really, there’d be lot of chat, too much coffee, too much, you know. But no, we were very keen to please, I think at that point.

And can you remember your first impressions of her?

Colour. Colour and chiffon. She always used to look as if she had about fifty layers on. Because also, I don’t think she had any money, I don’t think she had any money, they used to obviously used to pay her train fare, but I think that they drew the line at the cab from New Street station to college, which was quite a short walk, I mean I think it was about twenty minute walk, which we did all the time of course. We used to sort of… But it was a wind tunnel, Birmingham, with all these underpasses and overpasses, they’d sort of created this air suction [laughs] and whenever you walked through the city centre, you did have the impression that you were sort of walking against a wind machine the whole time. So we often used to sort of see her with swirling robes and pink and purple and green and blue and you know, rather like a sort of Bedouin tribesman. And that was the thing. And then this extraordinary make-up she used to wear. She used to sort of wear bright green eye make-up with stars – you know, like all the pop stars, it was a bit like Tyrannosaurus Rex,, Marc Bolan and all of that time I suppose, so you know, so face paint was quite a thing really. And yes, Zandra used to do that too, but the impression was of colour. Full on colour.

And in what way was she inspirational?

Because of the way she looked, because she was actually doing it, because of the way she taught. I mean she must have you know, not been long out of college herself, so you know, we could relate to somebody actually doing their craft, I suppose. Not that one ever worried about making a living or anything like that, I don’t think it ever crossed our minds Betty Jackson Page 156 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15) really. There was nothing interesting about making a living I don’t think, at that point. But I suppose she was, she was a link to you know, more exciting stuff really.

And what were the, can you remember any one particular or a typical if there is such a thing, session which she taught – how would she go about it?

She would chat initially in a group situation. I mean very much like anybody does it today really. And give us some sort of, talk about what was going on in London, or talk about a particular thing that she wanted us to look at. And then set the brief, you know. And the brief was always you know, design a set of clothes for this particular person who is going to be doing this particular thing, you know. So it would either be, you know, somebody that Zandra was maybe dealing with at the time and I don’t know, you know, some society woman who had five parties to go to in the season, or needed to travel to America for two weeks to do an exhibition. And they were always I remember related to somebody doing something, which was quite a good thing, I think really, rather than – what she never did was say, look at other designers who were… because there weren’t, I mean I can’t even remember anybody talking to me about you know, the collections or anything like that, as you would now of course, because they’ve become more important and I sort of don’t remember anybody talking about other designers. There were young designers that we were interested in, of which I’ve just spoken, but I can’t really remember it being – unless we just took seasonal for granted, which I don’t know whether we did. So it would always be related to some musician or pop star or somebody that she would be designing for at that time and their lifestyle, really. And then we would, the task would be to go away and have ideas and then see her later in the day individually when she’d come round and speak individually and then you’d get initial ideas down on paper quickly and then she’d be off, you know, whisking off, striding off back to New Street station and then back the following week, really. So there was sort of preparation to do for then, really.

And would you know a name of someone you were designing for or would it just be you know…?

Oh, it depended, it varied. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sometimes it would be a sort of person; this person is travelling to New York and is going to be doing this and is going to Betty Jackson Page 157 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15) be attending this, or this person is going to Russia for a week’s holiday, you know. It would always be put in that sort of context.

How much prompting would she give you at that stage as to how you should go about it?

I think it was quite a general sort of thing, really. Or she would often bring things and you know, chuck things on the table or bring references or you know, or insist that we go and look for certain things. I can’t, I mean she’d often bring, I mean she was sort of a walking antique shop herself really, because she was you know, she always wore jewellery, her face was always painted in some way and she always wore at least four outfits combined into one, you know. So you really only had to look at her to see something different every time you saw her really, I suppose. And there was a lot of information around I think, the college took certain magazines and there was you know, a good library and everybody had old Vogues around you know, and stuff like that, so I suppose there was a lot of inspiration really.

I was going to ask you how you knew about all these designers, where your information came from?

Well, magazines and, don’t know, what year are we? Sixty-nine, seventy. Television. I mean, I don’t know whether we quite localised as well, maybe we were. I think, I mean I think I’ve said before that there was a big, rather cool music scene that was going on in Birmingham as well, with people like the Moody Blues and Georgie Fame. Also the student union was really quite active, and big, and so people would come and play – there was always something going on. Culturally as well, you know, there was a theatre. I can’t remember any galleries. That’s tragic, isn’t it? I really can’t remember ever seeing painting. So maybe we just cut that out, I don’t know, we were probably too moronic to care at that point I think. So I don’t remember that bit. But there was sort of general how youth gets to know about it, really, you know. I suppose we looked at magazines, I suppose. But a lot of it came from our own imagination I think. I don’t think we were frightened of that at all and there was very definitely the feeling in the seventies that it was all to be done, you know, and one didn’t have to look backward, one definitely had to look Betty Jackson Page 158 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15) forward and it was all to happen, you know. And I think we were arrogant enough to think along those lines really. There was a future.

And when you set about designing an outfit for one of these people, you know, Russian tourist or New York band or whatever it was, how did you set about it? I mean what sort of principles did you employ?

You drew. You know, you just drew. You drew a figure on a paper and you drew a shape and I think the one thing I would say is I don’t think, well me personally, I don’t think I took enough notice of fabric. I think it was separated off and I think that was very bad and I’m sure it wasn’t the course’s fault, I think it’s generally a trap that students fall into you know, that the idea of a fashion designer is somebody sat behind an easel drawing figures on paper and it, you know, the shape of the garment comes out of the ether. And whenever I’ve done teaching, I bleat on about you know, that students really must know the difference between a wool crepe and a georgette and a barathea and a brocade and a… because unless you know that, I don’t think you can start. But there was very little, a lot of it was drawn work, there was, sometimes we would be required to make a garment but often it was only making a toile, which is just a pretend garment to see a shape. And I don’t remember very much handling garments, I don’t remember that being a huge part of the course. We all used to make our own clothes; we all used to cut things up and sew things together in a sort of rather haphazard sort of way and we were probably concerned with our own appearance rather than work. There was you know, lot of competition – not competition because there were a lot of different sorts of looks, everybody had a different sort of look, but there was a sort of keeping up appearances sort of thing really I think, you know to be you know, the next thing, the next good thing, I suppose.

And what was your appearance?

Oh, tragic. Ghastly. Long hair with a fringe, straight long sort of straight hair, which I then cut off and went through a David Bowie phase which is shocking, but I did actually have red spiky hair and his haircut. And you know, one has photographs to prove it, it’s really shocking. I used to wear very colourful things, the whole time and I used to wear a lot of different patterns together and I used to mix old clothes with new clothes and I used Betty Jackson Page 159 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side A (part 15) to, you know we all used to wear sort of old army clothes and men’s clothes were particularly exciting; men’s suits from the forties. So huge baggy trousers with turn-ups and braces with a very sort of small demob jacket and a sort of shirt with things stuck all over the lapels. Ugh, awful, really shocking. But we thought we looked gorgeous I suppose. Then there was a lot of maxi skirts and boots, you know, sort of very, very long skirts that didn’t matter what it was, but just had to be long. You know, and a bit sort of flower power stuff, you know. And then, you know, chains round your neck; long necklaces and chains round your neck. Loads of accessories, did a lot with accessories really. You didn’t have any money to buy anything. And there was a fantastic market in Birmingham called the rag market every weekend that we used to rush along to and you know, get the thing that you wore to death the following week and you know, ah, shocking.

And what did you actually want the clothes to say about you, your clothes?

Well, I don’t think I knew at that point. I think there was very definitely trends being set and I think I just wanted to be part of that and I also wanted to do things that other people weren’t doing. I don’t know whether I was particularly, in fact I don’t think I was particularly successful, but I think I’d developed a technique for drawing in a rather sort of understandable and attractive way. So things looked, I had a technique that things looked very nice on a sheet of paper, whether or not they worked in three-dimensional form was entirely different thing. And so I developed that technique quite quickly, but really in rather a sort of underhand fashion. I think probably I sort of saw a way through to get a result in the same way as I’d seen a result achievable in my school, you know. I thought this was a means to an end and if I master this technique…

[End of Tape 8 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 160 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16)

Tape 8 Side B [part 16]

So I thought that if I mastered this technique it would be fine, crits would be easy, it would be a way through to, you know, to not have to worry about judgement from the start, I suppose.

This is the drawings that you were doing?

Mm.

And how did they relate to what you were wearing, yourself?

Oh I think yeah, I think probably at that time everybody draws themselves. Or everybody draws what you think you would like to be, or everybody draws, you know, and idealised version of… but you know, it’s an easy thing in a portfolio to sort of change the look. It wasn’t always the same girl one drew, so you know, there were various things that you could do to change the look of a portfolio. You know and that’s, I feel a little bit of a cheat because that sort of came easily. But, however, it came also because Heather, who after the initial term or two terms, or whatever period it was that you had to live in halls – I don’t know if it was the first year – but anyway, we got a flat and Heather was brilliant. Her drawings were absolutely beautiful, rather cartoon-like, but she also had a very easy style and Holly, the other girl who joined us was also brilliant at fashion drawing, I mean just had a technique that was explosive on the page. In fact I think, well subsequently she earned her living as an illustrator in America. And she was really talented, I mean she painted beautifully as well. So I think, I mean believe it or not, we did do a lot of work at home, you know, so we would look at each other’s drawings and you know, not necessarily, well I’m sure it rubbed off a bit or one learnt something from somebody else you know, always. So I think that that was a huge plus really, for me, because I was with people who could do it better than I could, so that was good.

How far did you criticise each other?

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Oh, not much. I mean I think that there was a general appreciation and you know, generally it’s, girls do, you know we told each other we were fabulous.

And how did your styles relate to one another?

I think, I think we might have been very different. Heather always looked slightly European, she looked French, she looked Italian, she didn’t you know, she looked very fashion in a sort of young way and she was also very natural. I think I probably had to try a lot harder, I think. I was slightly taller than her, still, you know thinking, still wanting to be, not just look like Marianne Faithfull, but to be Marianne Faithfull and so you know, that’s what I looked like really. And Holly had very short, blonde, spiky hair and just was much more extreme than either of us I think, really. But had, and also, you know based in London and had been in London for two or three years doing – I don’t know where she was, I can’t remember where she was at foundation – but had had access to you know, High Street on a big scale and was much, much braver than us I think. But I do remember that we all wore colour. I remember Heather wearing turquoise Shetland little shrunken sweaters with kilts and knee socks and just looking fabulous, you know. And Holly wearing bright yellow little forties – she was skinny as well, she had a great figure – and shorts, she used to wear a lot of shorts with tights. And loads of stuff, she always wore loads of stuff in her hair, round her neck, on her wrists, on her fingers. And no, but she was very pretty Holly, too, she was a bit of a sensation really.

And what about your design styles, what you designed on the page?

I think Heather always designed what she would wear. I think I was much more unsure at that time, I wasn’t as confident as the two of them and had a much lower key sort of thing. But they, but I was never criticised for that, I don’t remember, I mean I remember, I never wore… there was a sort of group of us and I think we were sort of, well we thought we were the best you know, we thought it’s what you do. And then there was Adrian as well, who had come down with me from Rochdale and he couldn’t draw at all. He was brilliant when it actually came to making and you know, he would toile all day, you know three- dimensional and pinning things on a stand and you know, and at a machine, but he couldn’t draw so I often did his drawings for him, but in a different style because you Betty Jackson Page 162 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16) know, if you had a crit you had to have so many drawings to present. So I often did his for him and we pretended they were his. There was generally you know, a lot of camaraderie really, I mean there was a lot of, I think we were quite a close little group.

And what sort of feedback did you get from Zandra Rhodes?

Er, none. I think we were a means to an end for Zandra, which is perfectly acceptable, I quite understand because she was inspiration. I think we didn’t require anything else really. I mean she talked about a life that she was living and you know, she was working so hard at that time and I think travelling to America a lot. You know, and obviously just had no money. There wasn’t any, I don’t think it was philanthropic, her teaching, I think it was absolutely to do with cash. And so we didn’t care really about feedback. We were very, I think it was all very short-term thinking, I think we weren’t really concerned about a year hence, d’you know, it’s an odd thing really. Because you were sort of sure that something would tip up really, I suppose.

So when you’d made a design and you’d put the marks on the page as it were, what happened next? Did anybody look at it?

Yes, we used to have about twice a term, crits with Marjorie Watts. We used to have to sort of put an exhibition or you know, or one-to-one tutorials where they would look at your work and you’d talk about what you were doing. But I only remember vaguely, I think that they were really quite… I don’t think they figured as important moments in my career. I think it was much more important to please your peer group than to please the staff. I think that might still be true, too. [laughs]

Well, can you say some more about the process of, you know, creating a toile and so forth?

Well, we had various projects, so you would have various projects going on at the same time. So you were supposed to do some work in your own time, obviously, and there’d be drawing projects that had to be handed in, so they went mysteriously into an office, and that was sort of on paper. And then you’d have practical projects so, you know, you can Betty Jackson Page 163 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16) imagine and I’m sure this is the same in lots of BA colleges, you have to sort of teach people about you know, an invisible zip and a welt pocket and a fly front and how a collar sits on a jacket. All of it was extremely tedious, I must say and we had a pattern cutting teacher who taught us, you know, how to drape on the stand and then cut a flat pattern from, how to draft a pattern from you know, your centre of front line and – it’s sort of a bit like piano practice, I wish I’d paid more attention really, but I was always completely hopeless at anything technical. I mean I made a sort of rough garment, but I was never skilled in that area. You know, I’d miss crucial bits off seams and you know, and I’d forget to change the angle of the collar and you’d cut it out and it didn’t… you know, so there was a lot of sort of botching in my bit. And still, actually, since I’ve had my own studio, you know, I sort of go to sew a button on and three people rush and say, ‘No, no, no, it’s absolutely fine, we’ll do it’, you know. Or I’ll say, ‘I’ll just sew it’. ‘No, no. Thanks, we’re fine.’ And so I must be really still quite hopeless at it I think.

And were you conscious of that at the time?

Probably, but I didn’t care. Absolutely didn’t care, didn’t realise the importance of it, didn’t realise. And I’m sure that wasn’t for want of people telling me, but didn’t, never really consciously worried about it at all.

Can you say some more about these various people who were teaching you at that time. Is there a distinction between teaching and technicians?

Yeah. There was, technicians were there to sort of help you out when you wanted to do something and when you’d got something approved by a tutor. So if you wanted to go and knit something on a knitting machine, you had to get it approved by your tutor and then approach a technician for time because there’d be seventeen people who all wanted to use the same two machines in a day, so it was their job to sort of sort that out. So – or you know, print a piece a fabric, the same thing applied really, or use an embroidery machine, that also required booking time and I don’t remember it being particularly difficult. I remember quite enjoying that bit. I enjoy the technical aspect of fabric making, what I don’t enjoy is the technical aspect of clothes making, but I – it’s an odd thing this, because I love, I love fitting now. I’ve loved it for quite a long time, I love getting shapes right and Betty Jackson Page 164 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16)

I don’t know whether that’s just – you know you realise that somebody else can do it much better than you, so technically there’s a pattern cutter that’s a million times better than me at creating, but what is exciting is the collaboration between the two is when you have, when you work with a good pattern cutter that they will bring something. You have the idea of a shape, you have the idea of a silhouette and they will bring something more to it and you add the other excitement of putting it into a cotton black satin or you know, a georgette or a cashmere tweed or something, and it then adds another dimension. And that whole process I find thrilling. And we’re at that stage now for next winter and it’s just fabulous to see, to see things now in calico and to visualise them in the cloths that they’re going to be and to build it up, I absolutely love it, I absolutely love every minute of that. I think it’s really exciting. And it’s a silly thing really, you know because you’ve drawn this thing and you’ve imagined it first of all in the cloth and the colour that you’ve already done, but then to see it in really horrible fabric, calico – well I love calico, I mean there’s something rather splendid about calico - but then you know, if it looks great in calico, it’s just gonna look fabulous in the stuff. And there’s this sort of excitement of you know what’s coming next, you know that if it’s a good shape or it’s a beautiful pocket or it’s a lovely colour or you know, you’ve got this, I don’t know, a bow trim in exactly the right place on the garment and you know it’s gonna be better than it is, so there’s a sort of excitement of being excited about what’s going to happen as well. So it’s all wrapped up in a rather wonderful experience really.

How d’you know?

I remember though at college, it wasn’t the same experience – I’m sorry to interrupt – I remember at college it wasn’t the same experience. The process of getting to the final garment was rather dull. And maybe it was because I was not very good at those bits, that I always disappointed myself. I was always disappointed with what I produced, it was never really what I had imagined at the beginning, it was never really right enough, it was always, it fell short of my expectations always. Except the drawing, except I could draw on a page and that was exciting, but the practical work, certainly of producing garments always fell short for me. I remember not feeling as excited.

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You said earlier that you were less confident than your friends – d’you have any idea why?

No, I absolutely don’t know why. Maybe it’s not true, maybe everybody has insecurities, I don’t know. I sort of always felt that it was, that I was the lesser of the three, I think. I’ve absolutely no idea why. I don’t think they ever, you know, we were very much a threesome. And then there was another, there was a fourth girl, who was doing printed textiles, so you know, we were quite a sturdy group really. But she sort of wasn’t involved in fashion so much, so had different sorts of work to produce. But I do remember, we all used to sort of work at home in the evenings and there was quite a lot of that really, it was… I don’t know why I feel, I don’t know why I feel that, but I definitely did, sort of you know, rather ill-informed or not quite up to scratch or you know, not as exciting as Heather and Holly, probably.

Did anyone ever say anything to you to reinforce that?

No, I don’t know, I can’t remember. Nobody had actually said, ‘Oh you’re the duffer of the three’, you know, stand behind. [laughs] It was maybe just you know, my own insecurity, I don’t know.

Or at college where you were doing…?

No, no I think we were considered a bit of a cool gang, really at college. I think you know, we were really, nobody dare I think, in fact we were very scathing about you know, years below us. We were a bit of a snotty bunch really, didn’t, really treated second and first years with disdain. And the now Dean of the London College of Fashion in fact was one of those people that I treated with disdain I think, at that time. Huge respect now, but…

Can you say a bit more about that?

Well, after you got over your first, when you decided that you were doing fashion and fashion was a sort of, it was hallowed ground really, fashion. You suddenly got status within the college and the university and I think people were sort of scared of us really, in Betty Jackson Page 166 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16) the same way that we were scared of the fine artists, but never said. But there was very much, you know, I suppose we were all what we did, we looked like what we did and you know, we all obviously looked, thought we looked fabulous but obviously looked ridiculous, but that was part of the thing, you know, you stood out in a crowd and that was what you wanted to do, absolutely definitely. And I suppose with you know, with that arrogance, when you mix with it a bit of confidence about creating some sort of stir within a large body of people, it’s a very volatile mix, so you then get a bit above yourself I suppose really. Which is exactly what we did and thought we were far more special than we were, I’m sure and yes, really treated second and first years rather badly I think. [laughs]

So how did you mistreat or maltreat the Dean?

Well, there was always stuff about they had to [laughs], I didn’t ever… I think he was two years behind me, which actually means that he missed most of the, I mean really you were most vile to the year just below you, I think. And of course they were sort of always brought in to sort of you know, do things for you or, at critical final collection times and you know, stuff like that, so I suppose there was… yeah. And definitely you know, you had gone before so they had to know their place. I’m sure it’s still the same.

But can you remember talking down to him or any…?

No I can’t, no I can’t remember any specific occasion. I remember, no because he was in really quite a good group. I think that probably was also why we were so vile to them, because we probably felt threatened by their talent. [laughs] Coming hot on our heels. You were sort of very separate as well really, you never really mixed with another year. Yes, it sounds awful doesn’t it, but it is rather good fun.

And we were talking about the process of design, the you know, the toile and so on, and what was the end product?

In some cases it was just the toile and in some cases you actually realised it in fabric that had been bought in by the college, but it always sort of went, I only remember it going a Betty Jackson Page 167 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16) bit frumpy and a bit tweedy really. I don’t remember producing anything of any real worth in three-dimensional form. Probably in some horrible cupboard somewhere, I don’t know, but anyway. I really only remember having any success in the drawn work. Although we did have to produce garments, so maybe I’m just blotting it out because it’s so horrendous. But it was very, you know on practical terms, this is how you put a zip in, this is how you cut a sleeve, this is how you tailor a jacket. You know, there were projects throughout the year because we had so much to learn and presumably, the staff had their sights on the end, you know, that the products that they were churning out of this college you know, had to be fit to go into wear, I don’t know. People set up their own companies, there was, but one sort of really wasn’t aware of this industry that needed designers in it. I wasn’t aware of any sort of job specification at that time. We just sort of thought I think that we would do it for ourselves. We thought that we would, yes, make clothes and do it ourselves.

And who taught you these detailed pockets and zips and all that?

Oh this was Mrs Williams, who was about a hundred and twenty-five, but lots of energy. Really tiny, tiny, tiny, perfectly precise lady who was absolutely brilliant technician, I mean she was just a brilliant seamstress and a very sweet, nice lady who you know, obviously just loved being with young people and obviously just loved the challenge of… and everybody adored her. Everybody adored her. She could be quite firm as well, but that was a good thing. No, everybody really, I think enjoyed her, maybe she just was sort of easier to talk to as well, I don’t know, she had, you know, you would go and spend a morning doing a buttonhole pocket. Oh, gosh. Life’s too short, but anyway. I love a buttonhole pocket now, you know. And it’s quite important that you do learn all these things, because subsequently when I worked in a design studio, when I worked in, when I went to work at Quorum, I had technicians myself; I had a seamstress and I had a pattern cutter and I had to explain what I wanted, so you have to know all these things, even if it’s tedious to have to do it yourself, but you have to know, you know, what some sort of detail will create and will look like in your particular fabric and whether you want it to look like that inside the garments as well as outside and all of that stuff. So it is important things, but I just remember being really bored to death by the whole thing. Shocking.

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And how would Mrs Williams teach – I mean would she…?

There were books on pattern cutters that were distributed and she would say, ‘This morning we are going to learn to cut a collar and lapel’, ‘This morning we are going to learn to…’ duddla duddla da. And then it got into this thing, you design the clothes and we will you know, then you can tell me whether and I will show you how to create this shape on, so it was very much, you know, she was constantly busy going round the group individually or we would follow a step by step procedure.

I mean would she demonstrate on the machine or…?

Yeah. Absolutely, with calico. Never with cloth, too expensive.

How large was the group?

I don’t remember it being particularly large, maybe twelve, fifteen of us. Maybe.

Was that a good size?

Yeah, I don’t remember being bothered one way or the other by that.

And can you say a bit more about her, what she looked like and you know, what she was like?

She was small and very neat and with a thick Birmingham accent, lived locally. Was a widow I think. You know gradually you build up a relationship, so by the third year of course, we were, you know we were all quite friendly, you know really by being around her and I suppose knowing that she was also a means to an end, she was you know, access all areas really, Mrs Williams, if you could get her to do your particular thing for you then you were home and dry really.

And Zandra Rhodes, you described her appearance and some things about her, but what was she like as a person? Betty Jackson Page 169 C1046/10 Tape 8 Side B (part 16)

I don’t know. I mean we were just a bunch of students to her and like I say, I’m sure we just meant cash to her to, not in a horrible way, but I think that you know, maybe one to one. I mean she was very exciting, you know, so she was a little bit sort of separate, I mean I don’t think we would, I mean it was very much a sort of, she was, I don’t know how much older she is, it’s not much I suppose, maybe five, ten years, but I don’t think we cared what she was like as a person. She was always nice, she was always funny, she always looked great, she was always extraordinary, she was loud, she was exactly as she is today, you know. I think with Zandra is what you see is actually what you get and I’ve never seen her, you know I’ve seen her in the presence of student competitions and I’ve seen her in the presence of the Queen and she’s exactly the same Zandra, you know, which is rather marvellous about her really. And I don’t think, I think she’s also single minded, I think if your paths cross and move on, she absolutely, that’s what happens and I think she’s always been completely focussed on her work.

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Tape 9 Side A [part 17]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson. It’s still Thursday the second of December 2004 and we’re starting tape nine. And we were talking about the various people who taught you at Birmingham and let’s talk about one or two others – Marjorie Watts who you’ve referred to before – can you say some more about her.

She was Head of Fashion, but I remember the staff being fairly remote, really and not, Marjorie Watts didn’t do very much teaching herself, she was Head of the School, of Fashion and then there was another bloke Donald Tomlinson who I’ve referred to, who was her boss. So he was sort of Head of the Faculty, including printed and knitted textiles and the embroidery department. And I don’t know, I mean I’m sure, I mean she seemed to be, she had a separate office that you went to rarely, sometimes for, maybe once a term for a tutorial or a chat and she would look at work, but certainly you know, now, I mean I do a little teaching, only really at the Royal now, but staff there seem to be much more accessible to the students. But I think, I don’t think it mattered so much, I think you had sort of your own little hierarchy and your own little group and that was sort of fairly firm and it sort of moved on relentlessly, really self-empowered really I suppose, so I don’t remember, I don’t remember bothering about the staff. There was, one was sort of aware that she was a sort of, she was sort of vaguely in charge, but she certainly wasn’t an overbearing or insistent sort of woman; she was rather gentle and kind and had a very modern short haircut and actually was really quite trim and like I said was always sort of dressed in rather a chic way, probably in something like Jean Muir or something like that, she sort of gave off that impression or the equivalent of Max Mara, that sort of you know, chicness. But certainly she wasn’t any sort of role model and she certainly wasn’t inspirational, she was rather you know, a different sort of figure there I suppose. Donald Tomlinson who was her superior, just like I said, smoked the whole time, you never saw him without a cigarette. Had a sort of rasping – she also had a Birmingham accent, Marjorie was a local woman too. Tomlinson wasn’t, he came from somewhere else and was very gay and obviously quite louche, I think he drank quite a lot [laughing] as well. But, also quite a remote figure and had a slightly larger office. So that’s why we knew he was much more important. But really, rarely saw him except you know, on your way to the loo or something, because we were all on the same floor and their offices were Betty Jackson Page 171 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17) positioned centrally, so you sort of had to go past, you know you came up to the top of the stairs and their offices were sort of right there and you had to go sort of right or left to whichever studio you were going to. And so you know, they were very much, but remote. They were there but remote. In the weave department there was a much younger bloke who had very blonde hair and wore very short Shetland sweaters and tight trousers from Lord John and he was called Michael somebody or other, can’t remember his last name. But he was sort of regarded as rather good looking, young, sort of, but not really in a student way, so again he was a bit clean really. And then another much larger bloke who was Head of Woven Textiles who was really like a big bear with beard and glasses. He was also called Michael. Can’t remember his name. He was rather good I think, he was really rather good. And I think probably quite well-known in the industry. The first one was called Michael Vernon, that was his name. And the second one, the Principal of the Woven Textiles, I can’t remember. And then, printed textiles was run by a guy called John and he was quite an exotic, sort of romantic figure really. But I can’t remember his last name either, which is terrible. But he was, I think he was also a practising textile designer and – it was something like McEnroe or something like that – and he was rather more approachable I think, really and more good fun and would actually, spent quite a lot of time at the student bar and you know, so was less remote I think. And I think that was all. There was a drawing instructor too who had a beard and long hair, looked a bit more like an artist, you know, and he drew beautifully. Because we had life drawing classes once a week.

And why was John exotic – how was he exotic?

Just because he was more friendly and he liked music and you know, you’d sort of see him at most you know, the disco things or when they had bands he’d sort of be lurking around in his Hush Puppies and his corduroy jacket and you know. And he was just a bit easier, you know, than the others I think.

You’ve said quite a bit about what you thought about yourselves and what the other students thought about you, what do you think the teachers thought about you?

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A bunch of layabouts, I’m sure. I think, I think, I have the impression we did the minimum amount of work. Partly because there were lots of other things going on, you know, your social life is very important at that time and I’m sure, yeah, I don’t know whether, I’ve absolutely no idea whether we were you know, a stellar group or not. We’ve never been referred to since, I think we’re not.

And, the people who ran things, Donald Tomlinson, Marjorie Watts and so on, can one, is it possible to say that they had any kind of a philosophy of fashion that they imparted or how did they…?

No, that didn’t come across at all, I must say, if they had. You know they would, I don’t remember that at all, I think we were allowed very much to you know, go on our own way and like I said you know, there was a lot going on on the High Street, so there was a lot of influences from there rather than looking at you know, couturiers or anything that was happening on a grander scale. I think I, I don’t think, I remember being shown Dior and Balenciaga in a sort of history of costume sort of way, but I don’t remember you know, a… in fact collections weren’t reported in those days. You know, The Guardian had a woman’s page, but it actually had nothing to do with, you know, it was really wellies and Barbours, you know what I mean, there wasn’t anything happening, I don’t remember anything happening information-wise about that. And so I suppose the source was younger magazines like Honey and 19 and stuff like that. Vogue was around, but Vogue was a different animal, it was for a much more grown up woman. In fact I went to do my work experience at Vogue magazine. And it was part of the most frightening thing I’ve ever done. [laughs]

At what stage was that?

That was in the third year. We had to go off for two weeks and we all went off to various places and ah! It was just so frightening. Anyway.

Why?

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I don’t know, I think the fact of being at Vogue, I mean amazed that – they don’t do it any more I don’t think, they don’t offer placements, I don’t think now – but just being in that rushed, everybody, it was very cliquey, everybody knew everybody, everybody had a certain job to do. I was with one of the Editors called Mandy Clapperton, who was one of the – it was in a room where all of these Editors sat together and it was when Bea Miller was Editor, she had a separate office and then there was one room where they all were and there was Grace Coddington, Liz Tilberis – who’s since died, Sheila Whetton, who was really the one at the time, Amanda Clapperton and various other sort of posh girls really. And it was very much a posh girls’ clique, really I think. And yeah, I went there for two weeks. And d’you know, I must be shockingly selfish because I can’t remember where I lived or anything. I can’t remember, I mean I’m sure Heather came – I think Heather came to work at Berman’s and Nathan’s because she was already interested in the theatrical aspect of clothes and she thought she’d died and gone to heaven there, she was just absolutely thrilled. But I can’t remember where we stayed, I can’t remember, I mean unless we stayed with my friend Maggie, maybe we did. But it was just sort of two weeks, I mean, extraordinary. Anyway. And they used to do photographic sessions in the studio above – they were still in Vogue House in Hanover Square – and it must have been a nightmare because you know, what d’you give some stupid little girl from, who’s on a college course in Birmingham to do, I mean you know. So they had to sort of find me things and so I used to do a lot of errands and I remember going to, they used to do shoots upstairs and all these people like Bill Gibb, and Ossie Clark at that time, and the photographer was, that they used, I mean I went to a session that the photographer they used was Clive Arrowsmith and Isabella Boulting was the model. And I had to go off and choose some jewellery from Bloom’s on Bond Street. And so I just went in and said I’m from Vogue and they need some brooches, that’s what I had to bring, some encrusted brooches. And so without any – I mean I could have been from anywhere, I could have been – and I walked out of this shop with about two million quid’s worth of jewellery, in a bag and you know, and just walked back to the studio. And there were sort of jewel encrusted lizards and – I mean they were fabulous, these things. And I think that was the most important thing I did in the whole two weeks. I remember at the end of the two weeks, going in to see Bea Miller and her saying, ‘Well maybe one day, we’ll be photographing your things. You never know dear do you?’ And I thought at that time, you bloody well will. But I just remember feeling you know, fairly… and also they were Betty Jackson Page 174 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17) all so confident and they were all so gorgeous and they were all you know, dressed fantastically and I just remember feeling, oh dear. I mean except, you know, I suppose I shouldn’t have done really, but it was two weeks looking back that I remember the sinking feeling, I remember thinking I really don’t want to be here because – but everybody was perfectly nice to me, everybody was really kind. I remember Mandy being very sweet. Sheila Whetton also being very sweet, but rather forbidding. You know, she had this grey bun and everybody treated her with such huge respect. But it was in a room where, you know, they all used to sort of sit on top of their desks and chat to each other and then just sort of waft out the office and you know, do things, that’s the impression I got. It wasn’t sort of lots of deadlines or tight schedules or anything like that, I think everybody was really quite laid back, but maybe I’m misjudging. It was my impression, that’s all.

And how was it decided that you would go to Vogue?

D’you know, I’ve no idea. I think the college did all of that. I think I probably just said, we all had to sort of give a list of what we wanted to do, and they did it. Extraordinary. I certainly didn’t write, I certainly didn’t write myself, but this was where I was allocated to go.

What had you said you wanted to do?

I think I probably, I think also they realised at that time that if they put me in a studio and I would have had to do anything remotely to do with sewing or – I’d have been a disaster, so the bent was to do with the drawn and the visual thing, rather than you know, anything on a practical level.

D’you think the fact that you were so good at drawing…

I wasn’t so good at drawing though, I mean it was just sort of the best bit about me really, because I certainly wasn’t so good. Let’s really get this in proportion, you know, I really wasn’t you know, a brilliant, they were some of them quite weak really, I mean you know, it was actually out of a bad lot the thing I could do the best. That’s it, I’m afraid.

Betty Jackson Page 175 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17)

Well the fact that this was your strength as it were…

Yeah.

… was that a mixed blessing in terms of developing other skills?

I think it was something that I did with relief, you know, and something I did with confidence so I think if you can cut out as much of the other bits as you can, then that’s obviously what I did as well, I think I used it to camouflage other areas that I was hopeless in. So it certainly didn’t spur me on to think oh, my practical skills must equal this, I think I was just hugely nosy and took the easy way out, you know. If I could draw it, it was alright, you know what I mean.

But d’you think if you’d been less relatively skilled at drawing, it might have…?

I don’t know. Might have developed differently. Yes. Who can say? It’s certainly, because then there was the car accident in the last term of the third year, so it’s certainly something I could do that meant that I didn’t have to give everything up completely, because the accident was in May when we were really well on the way with our final collections and then of course I had to stop the practical work, but I remember I did do the drawings whilst I was still in hospital for the final collection. So you know, as it was easy, I mean if I’d found that bit difficult I suppose I wouldn’t have done that. So it meant that I got my diploma because I did these drawings, they waived the practical bit, so in a way I suppose it was a good thing really that I could draw. I can’t draw now though, really shocking. My drawings are terrible now. It’s the line of least resistance, I tell you it’s really shocking.

So, you had the accident in the May, and then when was the course due to end?

Well, the end of June. It was the beginning of May I had the accident and of course everything stopped. But then, I mean nowadays they start final collections at Christmas and before even, but I think that we started the work in the term after Christmas, or even after Easter, because there wasn’t a fashion show and there wasn’t a – there was an Betty Jackson Page 176 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17) exhibition and we had to make two outfits I think, and then show portfolio work, so there was a sort of exhibition within the college that of course all parents were invited and a graduation thing and all of that, which of course I couldn’t go. But they did actually wheel me round the exhibition, I remember going to see it in college one evening. They sort of dropped me out there on a stretcher or something, so I did actually manage to see that, but that wasn’t, that was towards the end of June. So there wasn’t the work that is now required, that is now required from BA students and there certainly wasn’t any remote access to a fashion show, we didn’t do that sort of thing.

So, can you say something about a process of you know, creating the outfit or outfits for a collection at that time?

Well I think fabrics were quite limited so you sort of started in your head I think, with a look that was your look and then sort of, shockingly, found the fabrics to fit in with what you wanted, or found you know, the most extreme thing to fit in with what you wanted. So there wasn’t, I mean now we do it differently, we obviously source colour and fabric first, but then you know, it was a sort of haphazard way you would come across something in a junk shop maybe and then – because all that you required was a swatch. And of course there was a huge Asian community in Birmingham as well and so that was access to the most magnificent fabrics because there were sari shops, of course and you know, the most fantastic embroidery and colour and print and all there, you know. So that was great and it’s actually where we spent most of our time. I think we probably chose quite badly some of the time, but that’s what you do when you’re a student, isn’t it really? I think anything that we could get at a fairly low price was immediately attractive also. So there was no quality of fabric I think, it was… so that’s where you started. And you started really drawing in a sketch book I think mostly. And drawing shapes and drawing details and thinking about you know, the total look, it was very, I mean accessories were part of it you know, what you wore with it completed the look. And because that had sort of gone before, we used to make trips to London every weekend in the third year because we could all drive by then and there were various cars available and a lot of people had friends who lived in Notting Hill so we just used to come and sleep on people’s floors and you know, do the Portobello and Biba and you know, pilgrimages to London were really quite – and Kings Road of course, which was shit hot at that time, you know. Used to just walk down Betty Jackson Page 177 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17) one side and walk up the other and that was your Saturday and it’s fantastic. So you then showed the garment, then had to do a working drawing, showed the garments to the technologist for pattern cutting help and then you started to cut a pattern, which for me took forever. Other people found that really easy and with me that was the tedious bit in the middle and then you got to cut the cloth and make it up. It was you know, just what students do now, you had to do it all yourself and it was really where I came a cropper because my skills were not good enough.

And if you provided a swatch, so how…

Into a drawing, yeah.

How did that then become a piece of fabric large enough to…?

Oh well, I mean either you got the okay to go and buy the fabric from a particular place or, if it was a fabric that college – you know, sometimes there’d be people to come in to show fabrics to the group as a whole and there were places that the college had connection with, so there were various cloths that they could get that they had to order, so then you had to, they ordered it through college and it used to arrive and it was paid for by college, ‘cos you know, when it came within a budget – you were given a sort of budget to spend and then if you wanted anything extra it was down to you really. So that’s when we used to the wonderful Asian fabric shops and – not so much West Indian – it was really largely Indian fabrics that were around, not so much West Indian prints.

Would none of the fabrics be woven, created on the premises?

No. Too long, too difficult. You can’t, well you can’t create – knitted fabrics sometimes, you know. You could knit a sweater or you could knit – but I’m not sure I ever did that. Maybe once. Printed textiles, slightly more, slightly easier, but I can’t remember even ever doing that myself. I remember loving the process of the screen printing, you know and the pattern emerging you know, as you built up the colours and the different screen, but I can’t actually think that I actually created it myself, because I’m not a textile Betty Jackson Page 178 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17) designer. I mean I now use other people’s drawings and paintings and put them on cloth. I don’t ever do it myself. You see I’m a charlatan really.

Can you say some more about the printed textile teaching and you know, your appreciation of printing on textiles?

That’s it really. I mean I remember a vague sort of feeling of excitement you know, that you had a plain cloth and you could then put colour and texture and it became something else. I think I got – and also there was a sort of, I think I probably understood that process more than knitting cloth, I think I understood. I suppose it was because it was related to, it was graphics rather than you know, anything else. And I suppose I related to it because of that.

And the patterns or shapes that were being printed on the textiles, were they your designs?

I suppose they were, but I can’t remember anything of what I printed, indeed if I did in fact print anything. But I must have done, because I must have actually spent time in there. I think sometimes there was the possibility of going with a drawing and having the technical staff in the department print it for you, which is much more likely. But I think I probably loved the smell and loved – you know like, people love horses, which actually yes, I love the smell of horses too, but you never sort of get over that… there’s something industrial about printed textiles that I like, which is odd really. I love a factory too, I like the smell of factories too, it’s that sort of hands-on thing. There’s something that I suppose excites the senses, it’s an odd thing.

You’ve talked quite a few times about Oriental things, the sari materials and the Oriental collection of textiles you mentioned earlier, which you admired – Japanese, Chinese, whatever – how, and being as you say in Birmingham which is, you know has a large ethnic population, how far d’you think that has influenced the type of things you design and the way you design them?

I think they’ve always been part of the process, depending you know, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the feel of the moment. They’re becoming – I mean as we speak – Betty Jackson Page 179 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side A (part 17) they’re becoming much more important, there’s lots and lots of ethnic influences now. But what’s interesting is, it’s not so crude as it was, I think. One would take a, for instance a sari cloth in those days, or a particular way of embroidering that is particularly Indian or ethnic and actually just do that. Now I think, because there’s a sort of cultural mix happening and also, because of the need to do things in a much more modern way, you don’t want as much reference to the original as it was possible to do then. I mean sometimes we must have just looked like we you know, came out of – because we all wore Indian trousers and we all wore you know, little embroidered jackets and it was actually just taken out of context, that was all, but it was still to do with the original. I think now, first of all we mix things up, it isn’t one continent that we go to, it’s a mixture of lots of different places that we visit now.

[End of Tape 9 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 180 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18)

Tape 9 Side B [part 18]

I mean the ethnic influence, I’ve always loved a bit of ethnic and the fact that they’ve, you know they’ve done it – I mean if you actually look at Japanese clothes, they are so clever. You know, they’ve sort of almost worked it all out before and you know, just sort of details and things, there’s such a lot to learn and such a lot to admire from there. But, with you know, fashion as it is, then it changes. It was not acceptable for quite a long time you know that, so, when everything went clean lines and you know, power dressing and all of that. And I think that, speaking of my career, I think that that’s the bit, that’s the time where I probably lost my way as well, because of this sort of lack of where I was comfortable, my inspiration really. So I think that that was, that’s always been quite important. I think as a designer you have to look abroad as it were, anyway, but I think I do a lot of that. And so I do think it affected me badly when it was obvious that you know, it wasn’t so great or you couldn’t keep – not that we went back to the same source, but you couldn’t, it wasn’t a look that was exciting, you know, it needed to be re-done. I’m completely happy now. Back with a vengeance, it’s great.

What d’you think it says about society or culture or anything?

Oh I think it just moves on, I think you know, we have an insatiable lust for the next thing really. I think it’s, and that’s what’s exciting about it and that’s quite right really too. I think it would be terrible if it was all the same, wouldn’t it? It’s great that it moves on.

You’ve mentioned, in connection with your work now, the importance of teamwork, people with different skills coming together. How much was made of that at college?

No, I think we worked individually at college. I think you know, we were a group of people who interacted, but I don’t think we were terribly aware of the possibility. I don’t think any of us understood really how a design studio worked. Very few of us had had experience in it, we could only imagine. So, but my stay, I mean in hospital actually, taught it me more than anything I think, that you know, I’m only alive because of a lot of people coming together as a fantastically well organised team. And the reason I’m mobile now is because of a fantastically well organised team and one could observe teams in Betty Jackson Page 181 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18) action. I mean it wasn’t anything to do with what I do now, but I was aware of people with specific skills being very important and the interaction between each other and if you’ve got a good mix, then it was a very clever thing to do. So I’ve always, since then have always thought it was very, very important. Don’t think you can do anything on your own, unless you’re a fine artist, which of course then you can. Unless you’re Mr Gormley of course, he has to have a team. Most people have to have a team, don’t they? Who do things for them. But, yeah, so teams are really, really important.

What did you observe? You said you observed teamwork – how did you, what did you actually take in?

Just because there were, you know, there were things that certain people did and tasks that people did and then a different person came in to do something else, you know. And there was back-up as well. I mean because we [laughs], I mean I probably ran the whole gamut of you know, what the facilities that were available in Birmingham Accident Hospital because I suppose it was quite a shocking thing that happened and so you know, we got social workers, we got psychologists, we got you know, the whole lot chucked at us really, so I think I just saw you know, this sort of smooth thing about – you know the moment somebody spotted something, then somebody else would come. And there was a sort of, there was a, you know a baton passing really that completed the whole thing of one’s recovery. I think that that’s what we were aware of, that there was always a safety net somehow and it was a team that provided the safety net, never one individual, you know it was the whole that worked. So I was very aware of that I think.

How did your friends in college react when you had this accident?

They were fantastic. They came to see me on a daily, sometimes twice daily basis. They were fantastic. Everybody was – I mean I even remember Marjorie Watts coming to see me at my bedside. I don’t think Donald Tomlinson did, but I think she did. And everybody was just so horrified by it, I suppose and upset. And you know, just as anybody would be. It was, if somebody had an accident within your group it’s you know. So yes, so there was a lot of support, a lot of support.

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And how important was it that you weren’t actually around, I mean in the college for the graduation process?

I don’t know. I mean for me, I had more important things on my mind [laughs] I suppose, it occurred to me a little bit later, maybe three weeks or a month afterwards that I, you know I ought to think about doing something. But everybody was really very kind and I’m sure shielded you know, a lot of stuff and I can’t remember whether it was my suggestion or somebody else’s that I did, if I did the finished drawings of this for this project. But I, you know I was talking to people on the course on a daily basis, you know, they would come in to see me on their way home or on their way from college and plus, my mother was living in my flat. She was, she actually was living there with Heather and Holly and Belinda, initially, you know for the first few months and my father was coming down at weekends. So it was all sort of, you know, there was a lot of action really. So everybody, you know I was still vaguely a part of it but you know, there were lots more things on my mind really.

So your mother moved down to be near you?

Yeah. Absolutely, to look after me.

And also when you came out of hospital?

Uh huh, we then rented another place, obviously. Yeah, it was about a year I suppose. Yes.

And you’ve mentioned a number of times your admiration for fine art and fine artists, how much contact, if any, did you have with the fine art people, either at Rochdale or at Birmingham?

At Rochdale I think the first week I absolutely fell in love with a painter there, because he was so glamorous and exciting and bohemian and all of the things that I didn’t know about. And I think probably the same thing happened at Birmingham. They were a very attractive bunch of bohemian, physical, gorgeous things, you know, that were doing Betty Jackson Page 183 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18) something entirely different. But there was a sort of huge respect I think for fine art. Even then I think. And that’s probably – and also because I’ve always sort of thought you know, I’ve never been quite good enough to do it, so this huge admiration for people who can, really.

Yes, why did you feel that?

Because I’m not. Because you know, why, how d’you know? You know don’t you, you know. It’s you know, it’s you know, you know that oh right okay, I’m just gonna be mediocre at this for the rest of my life and know, thanks. You just know. You know if you’re no good at something. It’s quite obvious.

Did you feel at any point that you were good at fashion?

No, I think we fooled ourselves thinking that we were much better than we were. Yeah. I think we thought we were good, I think nobody criticised, I think we built ourselves up into being something that we absolutely weren’t. And yeah. And then, yeah, I don’t remember ever not feeling good at fashion, really. That that’s more to do with it, I don’t remember not feeling that I couldn’t do it. I don’t remember being ever overwhelmed by it, I don’t remember ever thinking ugh, you know, this is really too difficult.

You’ve been quoted as talking about the Betty Jackson woman, the sort of person who wears your clothes. How far back did you get a concept of the sort of person who would wear your designs?

Well I think in college it’s much more to do with your peer group, you know. I don’t think you go further than that, really. And I think it’s much more to do with creating, you know you’re still developing as a designer. I mean you haven’t even begun to develop as a designer really. You’re struggling to you know, give out some sort of personality I think, so once you’ve established that, which I think probably didn’t happen till at least the third year, then you know, you can develop your own way of doing things. But I don’t think I did that until much, much later in my life, really. I think it didn’t occur to me, it didn’t – I was very self-indulgent as most students are, you know, you design what you like, you Betty Jackson Page 184 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18) design what you want, you design for completely fictitious characters you know, you design unwearable, unproduceable things, but that’s also a very important part of the process, you know there’s nothing negative in that, it’s just your development, it’s a very important part of your development I think.

So Birmingham came to an end, the course came to an end, what happened then?

Well then I was about a year you know, I couldn’t move around really, so I went home, back up north and – I lived in Birmingham I think for about a year because there was sort of, you know, I had to learn to walk again and do all of that stuff, which I did in Birmingham because it was just easier and we were on the spot and I wasn’t discharged from the hospital for quite a long time. So I was around in Birmingham. Most people went off. Belinda – I can’t remember what Belinda did. Holly immediately went to London. Heather stayed in Birmingham and in fact married somebody, not immediately, but quite soon afterwards married somebody from Birmingham and had children, and started up her own business. Adrian went on to do a further degree at Leicester to specialise in knitting and subsequent to it – and that was just a year’s degree – and subsequently was appointed designer of a company called Glynn Manson, which then turned into Fenn Wright and Manson, which is now… and he – the reason I started illustration was because he stayed very much in touch, also partly to do with his family being up north as well and you know, he was still partly in love with my mother I think, really. Anyway, and so we were very much in touch and he then got this job at Glynn Manson designing knitwear and needed somebody to illustrate his knitwear, or he thought that they were going to do a trade exhibition and they wanted some sort of visual aid and so he asked me if I’d just do a set of drawings. So I did this sort of, this set of drawings that they produced a brochure for and it was, he sent me up in a package about eight sweaters and I then just drew them on girls and accessorised them how I wanted to, you know, and did, and sent them back and they produced this brochure. And from that, from the time of this brochure being seen, I just go loads of commissions. So it was sort of odd really, so things then sort of started to wing up and down the M1 and Adrian really sorted an awful lot of that out, because you know, he was on the spot there in London and I wasn’t. Then, I got better and moved to London myself. That wasn’t for a while after, it was quite a while afterwards, there was various sort of you know, personal stuff going on Betty Jackson Page 185 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18) with boyfriends and goodness knows what, so I then yes, I then moved to London. And that’s when I started to do illustration really, I mean I’d sort of earned a bit but you know, money wasn’t a problem really because I was living at home and then yeah, and then I became an illustrator.

What were the sweaters like that you did for the…?

Oh they were fantastic, they were, there was one that was a black and white check lurex. I mean it was all very seventies style, but he was a great designer, he really you know, set that company off. He was brilliant; very young, very you know, boutiquey, they were great, they were just great; modern little seventies sweaters, you know.

But what was it about the combination of his designs and your drawings that got so many people interested in you?

No, I don’t think it was anything to do with that, I think the range was a huge success anyway, so there were lots of people, because they were great and it was an exciting young collection. So that was the first – I was incidental really, I was really an also ran, really – and they just had these brochures for anybody to pick up and a couple of magazines picked them up as well. So I started to do illustrations for 19 magazine and Drapers Record and a couple of other clients who were showing in the same trade fair, you know, that just wanted an invitation with a poster or something like that, you know. And it sort of gradually, I was doing quite a lot at one time. Well so much so that I came to London, got an agent and that’s how I thought I’d earn my living for the rest of my life. Until I met Wendy Dagworthy. And she changed everything. [laughs]

When you were – we’ll come to her – when you were working as a freelance, I mean were you happy to be a freelance for a period or you know, what did you think about not having a regular job?

Oh I’d never had a regular job so I didn’t know what a regular job was, really. And there was no pressure, you know, to get on a ladder anywhere. There was no, there was no time that you sort of thought, oh God, I’d better – you know, we moved to London to stay with Betty Jackson Page 186 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18) the brother of this bloke that I was with and we stayed in his spare room for the first, you know we rented that from him. We probably paid him about three pounds a week. So, and then it wasn’t until later and then we lived in the centre of town with a friend of ours who was moving. You know, you got things by just talking to people, there was a bit of a sort of network, you know. Friends of ours were moving out of London, they lived in this fantastic flat in Riding House Street in the centre of town and you know, it was just because we were there and so they passed it on to us and you know, we got this brilliant two bedroom flat, mansion block flat right in Riding House Street for seven quid a week, you know it was fantastic, it was just fantastic. We could walk to the cinema, we could walk to the theatre, we could you know, it was great. Loads of Italian restaurants, Goodge Street – Fitzrovia it was called, it’s still called rather grandly, I think, Fitzrovia. But it was a lovely area to be and so I just used to sit in our sitting room and draw.

And who were you with, who’s the chap you were with?

He was called Andrew. I have absolutely no idea where he is. He didn’t get me very much work, I mean I worked through you know, contacts that I had and Adrian and you know, magazines and things.

This is your agent?

No.

It was the chap you were living with?

No, no. Oh the chap I was living with was just, was a training… yeah he was just a bloke.

You don’t want to say any more about him?

I think we won’t, no. I think we probably won’t.

So Andrew was?

Betty Jackson Page 187 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18)

Andrew was the agent that – I don’t know how I met him, but you know the whole thing, I mean my boyfriend came from London so he had a lot of friends who were already there and he was quite well connected and stuff, so you know, life was just easy really. It was you know going, yeah it seems – maybe I’m looking at it through rose coloured glasses, but it was… There was never, I think well it was also, there was never this desire to push forward in that sort of desperate sort of way, it really was a different feel, it was a different time, it was, you, you know, you did things and you met people almost in a haphazard sort of way. I don’t know whether we were just, because it, you know we were that generation that had been hugely influenced by the calming effect of a hallucinatory drug or – I don’t know what it was, but it was easy, it was relaxed. You know, there wasn’t any pressure to join conglomerate or corporate or you know, whatever you did during the day, that was what you did.

How did you see your future at that stage?

I didn’t see it, didn’t think, didn’t think about it at all.

And how was the decision taken for you to move to London?

Probably I, I probably, well I probably always knew I would, I mean. And also because if I’d been, I would have probably gone to the Royal College if, because I’d applied and, but because of the accident of course I couldn’t go.

Applied to do what?

Fashion at the Royal College.

To study it or teach it?

Yes, study, the MA course. And a couple of people went from Birmingham. So you know that, it was a gravitation point, one always sort of knew one would end there really. And people were, you know people did. Beat a path to London, really. It was a very exciting place. Betty Jackson Page 188 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18)

So tell me some more about your illustration; the commissions and what you did.

Well I sort of developed a style that was different from my style in college. It was very linear and I was very influenced by Art Deco and that sort of Bauhaus thing, it was probably quite fashionable at the time, I think. And so it was quite a simple sort of graphic, two-dimensional way of drawing, but I don’t think anybody else was doing it, and so that’s probably why. And that developed from you know, finding, trying to do things in a much more stylised way as I did more drawing and you know, just discovering for myself and not getting bored myself really, drawing the same way. So I developed a sort of rather graphic linear style that became quite popular and I probably earned about two pound fifty a week doing it, or something. Anyway, I remember Drapers Record paid fifteen pounds a drawing and that was huge sums of money at that point. And I drew what people sent; I drew objects, I drew people wearing – if it were clothes I drew them wearing clothes, if it were objects I drew the object either close or held by some sort of figure, but in a very stylised sort of way really.

And what made you decide to get an agent?

Really I suppose dabbling with the idea that one ought to be a bit more professional about it, I think. Either that or, he came into our lives through the boyfriend, I think that possibly was the case, or through a friend of his who knew of one and we met and it was… there wasn’t any contract or you know, he just had a portfolio of illustrators and used to tote them around and I thought rather good, instead of me doing it. I hated to go and see people and you know, do that display your work sort of stuff and I would much rather people come to me. I suppose anybody would that, but it sort of got over a bit of thing that I found troublesome I suppose, so that’s why he did it.

And you said he didn’t do very much?

No, no I think you know, either I wasn’t very good or he wasn’t very good, I never quite figured out which, but anyway. But then very quickly after that, I met Wendy.

Betty Jackson Page 189 C1046/10 Tape 9 Side B (part 18)

How did that happen?

A party. I had met Lynne Franks in fact, who was a very well-known PR in London at that particular time and I remember – why did I go to Lynne Franks? I remember going to Lynne Franks’s apartment. Oh! Well it’s quite complicated. Adrian had moved with his previous girlfriend to London, they had got married whilst he was in Leicester doing the masters degree, or whatever it was, the further degree – wasn’t the masters degree, and then they had moved to London when he got this job. Very quickly he then owned up of course that he was gay and then that became quite difficult, so Cindy came to live with us, in Riding House Street because oh, it was all quite grim and his parents were very upset and her parents were very upset. But Cindy then became a model at Models One, she was, I think I’ve said, she was there, and she was taken by Models One. And she met Bryan Ferry and had about a three minute fling with Bryan Ferry, who was in Roxy Music at the time and at that time Wendy Dagworthy was designing the clothes for Roxy Music’s tours and she was doing clothes for Bryan Ferry. And I think it was because of Cindy that I went to meet Lynne, I met Lynne Franks and Paul Howie, who she was married to at the time, but only in a social situation. And she was – I think she’d just started her own PR company, but she was working from her home in Pembridge Villas in Notting Hill. And I was, we were round there one day and Wendy and John delivered a shirt to Lynne Franks that Wendy had made for her and that’s when we met first of all and I remember thinking oh, she looks great and her husband John was also really, very stylish bloke and we just sort of, it was quite quick and she’s got the most wonderful smile, Wendy and then subsequently there was a party. There were always parties going on, everybody had parties and we met at a party and hit it off.

[End of Tape 9 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 190 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19)

Tape 10 Side A [part 19]

This is Eva Simmons on Friday the seventeenth of December 2004, talking to Betty Jackson, and we’re starting tape ten and by the way, the persistent noise, if you can hear it, is rain beating down on the Velux window.

Relentlessly.

Of the sort of atticky room that we’re in. And Betty we ended the last session with you saying, portentously, that you met Wendy Dagworthy and I’d like you if you will to expatiate on that.

Well, I met her by, well by chance really at the house of a friend. I can’t remember why we were there, but in walked this couple, Wendy and her husband John and they were dropping something off for this person and said hello, hello, hello. And I thought at the time just how lovely they looked and they were very sweet and friendly and we exchanged greetings and met and that was it. And then a few days later we were invited to a party and they were there and we sort of started to chat to each other, really. And she was already running her business in her own little way really, but it was really quite small, it was at the beginning. She’d left college – we were practically the same age and she’d left college the same year and had sort of started to do these silk shirts with people’s initials on the pocket, you know, customised and things like that. The funny thing is that she’d also worked at Radley for a period of time, so…

Radley?

At Radley, which, Radley was the company that I subsequently went on to work with who were the parent company of Quorum. Wendy’s first job I think, when she came out of college, was working for Radley, which was a very, very, very successful High Street company at that time and anyway she had set up her own business, but in a very small way as I said. And we just sort of – this is odd really, I sort of think we’re probably soul mates because it’s odd, but we’re still very good friends and she now is a consultant for me, so we always say we’ve gone full cycle; I started out working for her and she now comes in Betty Jackson Page 191 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19) and you know, helps us out here quite a lot. And so it’s really wonderful and I think, you know, there’ve been periods where we didn’t see each other as much, but I believe that you know, we’re sort of linked in some way because we do often think the same about things. But anyway, that’s much later on. Initially, we just got on really, I think. And so the week later, I seem to think it was a week later, but you know, I’m absolutely hopeless at getting… time expands or contracts in my head and it’s not to do with reality, so I may be wrong, she probably remembers much more specifically. She rang up and said you know, that she needed a bit of help and you know, would I consider going to work with her. And it worked out beautifully because I could drive by that time and had a little car that I sort of ran around in and she couldn’t. And she was sort of, you know, doing this little collection. So we sort of chatted about it and decided that we thought it would be good fun. And honestly, that’s actually what it was, we were just you know, two mates having a good time together. We got on incredibly well, it was a complete laugh. We still, you know, she laughs a lot, Wendy Dagworthy, I think everybody would say the same, but she’s really great. She has an aesthetic that is so firm and immoveable, she’s not flaky in any way at all I think, she’s really very strong and we got on very well. And so we worked together for two years altogether.

What d’you think that aesthetic is?

She has a very high sense of, I suppose one would say taste, really. She, I mean I think that that’s probably what it is, but that sounds really rather, that’s not a good enough word for her, really. She has very good taste, she has impeccable taste. What’s great about it is, now I’ve known her for so long, I mean you would honestly say that she hasn’t moved her judgement on design, her judgement on aesthetics doesn’t shift at all and if ever you feel that you’re unsure about something, I can talk to Wendy about it and she’ll bring me right back to you know, the point where I should be about things. She has a very, very balanced view. She’s also incredibly forward thinking, I think. She is very brave in her design ideals I think. And fantastic now, because she’s working so much with students so obviously perfect for that, really.

I’m going to ask you two questions; first, what d’you mean by taste and second, what d’you mean by brave? Betty Jackson Page 192 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19)

Well, taste is sort of, it’s a difficult one to define isn’t it, it’s, she always seems to make the right decisions about anything really. She will, she will be able to choose the most beautiful option always, she understands about craftsmanship, she understands about quality, she understands about anything on that level, but she also mixes it with a sort of frivolousness that actually is the excitement of it all, I suppose. I mean I think that that’s how I would describe Wendy, but she never, I’ve never known her to be phased by anything. She always, whatever it is, she always is who she is, she never moves from - the position that she had moves on, but she moves it on herself, she never, but she never strays from this path that she’s on. Which sounds pathetic really, but I can’t describe it any other way. I trust her judgement implicitly, certainly about work, well definitely about work. She’s somebody that I can you know, talk to and talk to in a very sort of open and frank way and I can, she knows what my fear, she knows what would frighten me to death, she knows, she probably also knows completely where my weaknesses are, as well as any strengths that I might have and she is completely supportive and yeah, I think you know, in any sort of work ethic you could rely on, I could rely on her absolutely, totally.

What would frighten you?

Oh, lots of things frighten me, but maybe that’s for another time. That would be too complicated ‘cos we’ll get off the chronological thing here, won’t we? Yeah, just things to do with design or development, or going in the wrong direction or things that might not be what our philosophy or look is about. So you know - making the wrong judgement.

You said just now, she always makes the right judgement – can you give any examples?

Only rather silly ones, really. I mean I’m not talking about you know, judgements that she’s made in her life, I’m actually talking about a professional collaboration we have here. I mean apart from that we are incredibly good friends, but that’s sort of beside almost. She, you know, if we’re nervous about a fabric or you know, sometimes you get sort of stuck on something, and she’ll actually just you know, open a door for you or she’ll you know, some fabric’s come in and you’ve chosen a colour from the smallest swatch in the whole wide world and fifty metres of it comes in and you think, oh blimey, you know, Betty Jackson Page 193 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19) this is really quite a… and she will find a way to make it work. She actually solves problems for us often, or she will you know, if you’re wavering about something and you think really this is not right, she will actually say, well it is and you know, don’t be scared and you know, remember where we started from on this and she will actually bring you back to where you thought of in the first place. And other things, if we go off on a tangent, we think we’re doing something fabulous and she comes in and raises an eyebrow and says, ‘Are you sure?’ and she’s usually right about that. And it’s a very good way of working, always to have somebody who’s outside of that because one gets quite emotional when one’s building a collection you know, and somebody who’s an outsider who can come in with that, you know, viewpoint as first of all as somebody who wears our clothes, because she does wear quite a lot of them, and somebody who is involved in you know, fashion at the cutting edge which she is as she’s Professor of the Royal College Fashion Department and somebody, you know, who just has this really highly developed taste level that is broad, but very, very focussed.

Can you say anything more about what taste means to you?

I can only say that it means making the right decisions. It’s, maybe it’ll emerge later on, I can’t describe it any other way. I don’t have any other words to say.

Or any criteria that she uses in making the decisions?

No, it’s a gut feeling she has, she does it completely instinctively and there’s, you know, there’s a few people who have that talent and ability to look at something and instantly make a considered judgement, which sounds opposite, but that’s what she does, she instantly makes a considered judgement.

You remember any particular instance where you’ve asked – you gave the example of fifty metres of fabric, but can you think of any other specific examples where you’ve consulted her and she’s come up with a solution?

Yeah, usually, I mean I can’t think of anything now, but there’s usually a couple of incidents as the collection develops that you know, we’re not sure or we’re struggling with Betty Jackson Page 194 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19) a particular style and she’ll suggest doing something with it by changing part of the garment, or cutting it in a different cloth or, you know, anything like that, that actually just, you haven’t thought of and then of course it’s completely obvious.

And going back to that first meeting – how much can you actually remember of you know, specifics of how she and John looked, what you talked about, that kind of thing?

Oh no, I don’t remember anything about our conversation. I remember she was, she’s very small [laughs], she’s very short, but she always wore incredibly high heels. They were always from Manolo Blahnik and she was always very glamorous and she has a great sense of personal style anyway, but you know, as I said we all thought we looked fabulous and we probably all looked ridiculous, I mean at that time. We were sort of you know, the bright young things in you know, and wanted to be sort of different and special. And her husband John was a very good looking man, lots of you know, wild curly hair and just sort of special looking in that sort of way – he’s a photographer – and they were just I suppose what you’d call a handsome couple or something, I don’t know. But yeah, they just always looked so great, really. But nice people, just nice people. And we, and like I said, we just laughed a lot and they’re very good fun and how d’you describe – there was just a sort of synergy there I suppose.

So tell me some more about you know, going to work for her, her asking you to and so on.

She had no money at all, so we decided on the princely sum of twenty-five pounds a week, but she often forgot to pay me this, quite funny really. And she was working from – she lived in a flat in west London and I lived in central London and she was working from her dining room or her spare bedroom or something, can’t remember, and she just needed help because she was taking orders from sort of, you know, small boutiques in London for – I think she was only doing, she was only doing a couple of styles of shirts at that time, and a couple of personal orders and she had a little network of outworkers that she needed to transport and collect work from, you know either cut garments or made up garments on hangers. And it was a very, very small operation, you know, and we used to collect these shirts that had been made to order really, I mean it was a very sort of you know, twelve at a time, and sew the buttons on and deliver them that same afternoon and then get an order Betty Jackson Page 195 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19) for another eight that we’d rush off and make somewhere else, you know. It was very casual, but there was – and I can’t remember how this happened – but then, suddenly there was – well not suddenly, but gradually – there was a collection. There was a skirt that you could buy with the shirt and there was a pair of trousers that you could. And we used to go often to a place called the Cotton Board which was in Cavendish Square, which was run by another brilliant woman, called Fiona Ronaldson , and that was financed by the Cotton Growers of America, I think. Anyway, it’s where everybody used to get fabrics from because they used to have swatches of fabrics and everybody used to go and have a look because there was no fabric fairs, there was no Premier Vision, you know, you really had to go and, I mean at that time you were virtually getting fabric from market stalls or you know, retail shops or, there was not really the wholesale system, or at least we didn’t know about it and I think in this country it was very much geared to Marks and Spencer’s and you know, the big multiples really. So we’d go and buy fabric, from Rubens and you know, all that sort of area round Great Portland Street which was the rag trade, really. And then cut it, there was a cutter who used to come in once a week or once a fortnight, he used to cut things. And then I used to whiz out in the car and take them out to all these little outworkers and have a chat with them or listen to their problems and then you know, that’s what we did. But it was, it’s an odd thing. Then we used to go and deliver these things and then show people, you know, this is the skirt, this is the trouser and oh there’s a little sort of jacket if you want, and they used to sort of order six of them there and then. You know, there was no real structure behind the whole thing, you know. And then we used to rush back to Wendy’s flat and that’s what we’d do for the next couple of weeks, d’you know what I mean? But we always went out for lunch and we always [laughs], I mean at that time I think there was a lot going on in London; Steve Strange had his nightclubs going and you know, there was a lot. I think if we weren’t out at least five nights a week we thought we led a very dull life, I suppose. So it was quite action packed, I think. And there was a whole sort of network of people that Wendy had been to college with and I had subsequently met and you know, there was a whole sort of network of people who then, we started to get to know people who were working in magazines and it sort of developed from there, really.

When you went out for these lunches et cetera, who’s ‘we’?

Betty Jackson Page 196 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19)

Oh just Wendy and I, we used to always have lunch, we were completely diligent about it. We used to go down, there used to be a, this little Italian restaurant downstairs and we always used to just lock the door and go off for lunch, it was so funny when I think about it, but we did. Or, food’s always been very important in her life, her husband’s a very good, she’s a very good cook and her husband is too. So it’s always been sort of quite a big part of their lives, you know that good living thing, which is all part of good taste, really isn’t it? Getting a balance right.

And what, I mean you’ve talked about going out to the outworkers and so forth, what other things did you do as part of your work there?

I sewed buttons on, I made lists, I answered the phone, I phoned people up and said, ‘Would you like to see what we’re doing’ and everything that sort of moved it along really. But as I’ve said before, there was no structure at all to this, we had no idea of showing in an exhibition space or no idea of seasonal collections or anything like that. I mean we literally just did what we liked, really. And it was incredibly casual and such good fun.

So what did you think of that lack of structure and organisation?

Well I didn’t know anything different really, because I hadn’t, up to that point, worked for anybody seriously, so I didn’t know how to organise it anyway, I just did what was common sense, really. And you know, we did everything as a double act, I mean it was very much Wendy’s business, obviously, and said Wendy Dagworthy quite clearly on the label and you know, if anybody asked, I always said I was the assistant. But we did, I mean it was, we did everything together you know; we went to see shops together, we – I mean the only thing that Wendy didn’t do in the end was actually deliver and pick work up really, I suppose and I often, towards the end I often did deliveries on my own, simply because there was no reason for two of us to go. But you know, we thought the most, an important phone call would happen whilst we were out. But anyway, so it was very, it was very much a partnership in essence, but certainly not in deed, you know, it was very definitely her business and I was helping her out really. By the end, then I suppose by the end, I mean I was with her two years and by the end of the two years we had sort of turned it round and she was part of this group called The New Wave, which was a group of young Betty Jackson Page 197 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19) designers that pre-empted the London designer collections and it was a group of young designers who got themselves together to show in a cohesive way, I suppose. And by the time I left, we were showing seasonally and we were taking orders which, we had to order cloth and the thing got much more sorted in a sort of, in a way that now people would understand, really. But up until then it had just been sort of a very haphazard sort of thing.

And how far at all were you involved in the actual designing of the clothes?

Wendy used to sit and draw whilst I sort of either sat next to her or, we always used to choose cloth and buttons and… but all of that was really quite a long sort of process, we always used to put old buttons on things, vintage buttons and there was a shop in Notting Hill that we used to go, but it used to take all afternoons to buy buttons for the collection or buy buttons for production. Everything took much longer, you know, there were no mobile phones, there were no faxes even, you know, there was no telex, it was extraordinary really. After the first season also, the other thing, major thing that happened that made us be a bit more professional about it was we moved into offices in Berwick Street, which was fantastic because it gave us both you know, a focus to go for – this is still only two us, but we had a sort of, we had two rooms there and one was sort of the office cum sort of cutting room and workroom, and then there was another little room off where we had a sort of rail where we kept the clothes and people used to come and order there, or see them or you know, make appointments there. So that changed. And she had a very good clientele, I mean you know, she was highly regarded, clever designer, but I was only there right at the beginning when it was, sort of became obvious that really what she really did need was an assistant and you know, notwithstanding our personal friendship, she didn’t really need you know, somebody like me, really. But it was, so by the time, after the two years it was really, it was you know, it was good, she really started to take off, there were lots of articles in the newspaper about her. It was, you know, it was all very exciting, it was all very exciting. She did really, really, really well.

So how much input did you actually have into the design part of it?

I think we used to decide it all together. I mean she used to sort of draw sketches, I was always the illustrator, so whenever we decided something, you know then I drew and I Betty Jackson Page 198 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side A (part 19) used to draw posters or invitations to invite people to things or you know, which were just easy things, little things to do. But she’d sort of draw things out on an A4 sheet and then we’d decide together what we were gonna do to make up the range. I can’t even remember how big the range was, it can’t really have been more than you know, twenty-five or thirty pieces, if that. But there’d be sort of three or four fabrics involved and it was a sort of collaboration, but she would, I mean she was the designer very definitely, it was absolutely her thing. I mean I wouldn’t lay claim to any of that at all, it was absolutely her doing.

And the details, like buttons and so forth, did you have an input in…?

Oh yeah, we used to decide all that together and the trims, we used to use a lot of binding and piping and you know, the inside of the garments and two fabrics together and you know, when it came to doing the shapes and things, I think we sort of decided that together. But it was easy because we sort of thought the same about quite a lot of things, you know, so there was never any conflict. I mean and I think also we were just so confident about what we were doing, really. There was never any question that we were you know, not following trends or, you know, because we were the trendsetters I think. I think we absolutely thought that more than anything, really. So there’s never any self- doubt, I suppose.

Did you have, I mean how much did you encourage one another so to speak?

Well I suppose all the time. I mean I loved what we did, I loved, I absolutely loved what we did. And there was a sort of onus on to make it work, we knew that we were at the beginning of something. But I don’t think ambition came into it. I mean I remember there was a chain of shops called Elle boutique, run by this wonderful woman, Maureen Doherty, who now has a store called Egg in Kinnerton Street and she was the buyer for this chain of shops. She was terribly smart, I mean the equivalent of Browns now. And they, I mean things got bigger when people like that came to look and ordered and you know, suddenly we were producing twenty-five, thirty of something rather than six of something. And yeah, it got big quite quickly. [End of Tape 10 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 199 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

Tape 10 Side B [part 20]

So it got big quite quickly after that, I suppose really.

And I mean you’ve been emphasising being at the cutting edge and so forth, what sorts of things were you designing or what was the thinking going into the designing?

I think we were designing in a very personal way, I think we were designing everything that we would wear and everything that we wanted to wear that we couldn’t find. And I suppose what was going on at the time, it was a period I suppose after you know, Ossie Clark had had the huge success and Mary Quant had had the huge success and suddenly there was an obvious opening for innovative design for young people and you suddenly didn’t want to dress like your mothers or even the generation above you. You know, lots of people wanted individuality; the Kings Road was heaving. So I suppose there was a huge demand for it, especially out of London, was you know, a lot of things happening musically, a lot of things happening in the arts world, a lot of things happening, you know, it was sort of a very inventive time, I think really, the late seventies.

So what sorts of shapes and fabrics and types of things were you designing?

Well we did a lot of things in cotton, as I say, because we went to the Cotton Board for a summer collection, we went to the Wool Board for winter collection, so it was all to do with natural fibres. Because there was a sort of – it sounds ridiculous now – but there was a distrust of manmade, manmade meant cheap, so if you used pure cotton or pure wool or hundred per cent silk, it was sort of automatic quality, really, which is a ridiculous thing to think of now, but things then, manmade fibres weren’t as sophisticated as they are now and it was before performance fabrics and all of that stuff. So it was very, very much to do with natural cloth and like I said, cotton in summer, lots of checks and stripes and ginghams and sort of basket weaves and denims and herring bone and very, very traditional fabrics I think, but colourful I think. I remember most of it being red and white and pink. I still think of Wendy and think of pink, everybody thinks of pink when they think of Wendy. And then you know, slightly more diffused in winter I suppose, although I do remember we had a shocking pink mohair one winter which was fabulous. And big Betty Jackson Page 200 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20) shapes, lots of big shapes, big enveloping, there was nothing revealing. We were sort of anti the mini skirt and anti revealing, because that was the bit that had just gone before. It was very androgynous I suppose, it was very layered, you know you just piled a skirt on top of a trouser and then a big shirt with a waistcoat and a jacket over the top and probably a big sort of coat on top of that, and a hat – always wore hats, we always, both of us always wore hats. Yeah, that sort of look really, late seventies. Legwarmers and scarves and accessories.

And did either or both of you wear pink?

Wendy always wore pink, I think I had a pair of pink dungarees which I’m rather alarmed to admit, but yeah, fear I did, yeah. We, you sort of didn’t care, really. And there was very much a feeling of dressing to please yourself. You know, as a girl you didn’t care what, you didn’t dress to please your boyfriend or to please the… you dressed individually because this was what you were about. Very definitely a feeling of that. We were always scathing about girls who wore things to please their blokes. We thought this was ridiculous.

And that was a period of sort of blossoming, as it were of feminist thoughts and feelings.

Yes, I suppose, yes of course it was. I mean it was all going hand in hand, maybe that was what it was, we were part of the, that was the zeitgeist of the time. So I suppose that must have rubbed off. I think that’s where the androgyny came in, I mean you know, they weren’t, nothing was overtly sexual at all, you covered things up rather than revealed.

And when you say you had this feeling of being at the beginning of something, you mentioned Ossie Clark and Mary Quant and so forth, did you see yourselves, you know, they were the beginning and you were picking up the banner or were you at the beginning of something different from them – how did that all hang together?

I don’t think we thought we were part of that at all. We, I think we thought that we created our own almost band of you know, warriors – we were a tribe in ourselves, I think. And we certainly didn’t have, and this arrogance of youth you know, which means that Betty Jackson Page 201 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20) whatever it is, yours is better or you can do better, I think that that happens with everybody and certainly we had it in spades I think. I think we thought safety in numbers and all of us felt the same about something. And yeah, and it’s that tribal culture, we moved along together and ignored criticism I think, and ignored the other side of any argument. We were very strong in our collective viewpoint.

And what did you think you were starting?

We weren’t aware of starting anything, I think we were just excited about what we were doing. I don’t think you ever are aware you’re starting anything until after it’s begun. I don’t think you do something thinking – I don’t think I’ve ever done that. You know, you sort of go on simply because of opportunity. I think my whole life has been accidental. Except, you know, you just hope you make the right choices. And I mean funnily enough, the same day that Wendy phoned me to say you know, wouldn’t it be great if we sort of worked together, Lynne Franks phoned me and offered me a similar thing, you know, said why don’t you come and work in my office and you can – she already had a PR company, you know, and I was illustrating at the time so I was, and she said well you’ll have time to do that as well and you’ll be able to meet press and it’ll be perfect for you and you can just answer the phone and blahdy blahdy blah. And I don’t know whether it was even a serious offer, I think also you know, it was just she needed somebody to do something for her and I was a bit of a spare part quite a lot of the time because I was working on commissions when they came in, but I certainly wasn’t nine to fiving at all. And I chose Wendy, but you know, I made a conscious decision to choose Wendy because, not because I thought we could start something together, just because I thought at some point I would be more thrilled in a more – not even more creative, because Lynne was doing very exciting things, she was working with Katharine Hamnett, she was working, I mean she was doing really exciting things and it was really very much at the beginning of what she started then. But I sort of liked the practical element, I’ve always liked touching fabric [laughs], it’s this silly thing that we come back to all the time, and I thought that that bit would be there with Wendy and it wouldn’t be there with Lynne. Maybe I would become frustrated. I didn’t even think that far that I would become frustrated, I think I thought there’ll be fabric and there’ll be touching clothes involved in the Wendy job, rather than not. So that’s why I decided to do that. Betty Jackson Page 202 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

What about their respective personalities?

I don’t think I considered that, except I must have, Wendy and I really did get on incredibly well. There was very definitely you know, a huge understanding. I don’t think I’ve ever found anybody else who, in this field, that I’ve felt the same about, really. Either before or since. And so when that special thing happens, things get sort of romantic and soppy really, but there is definitely some link, something between us that’s different from anything else really. I mean I was very close to Heather – I’ve described her before – and it was sort of you know, like, found somebody just close that’s sort of the next stage of one’s life. Almost like you trade a lover in for another lover, but of course there wasn’t anything like that, but that’s the only thing I can describe, you know, somebody is important at a particular stage in your life, it means something’s very important to your life at a particular stage and Wendy came during this particular stage, I think.

You said earlier that you felt you were at the beginning of something, and then you sort of…

Only because we were young and I think we were discovering things for the first time. You know we were all young couples, living life in London. You know, going to Morton’s and Annabel’s and the Chelsea Arts Club and you know, going to Roxy Music concerts and San Lorenzo and all of these incredible places really. You know, and Steve Strange’s club and Studio 54 in America and all of these things which had huge reputations, we came in at the sort of tail end of it all, but for some reason we had access to all these places, I never quite got it why, but we did. And that’s what I mean about you know, the arrogance and the courage and the, we sort of, I think, you know felt very tribal about it, about the whole thing and sort of in control. We all went to the same hairdresser’s; Keith at Smile did our hair pink and we all wore red nail varnish and we all wore a ridiculous amount of accessories and you know, and we were saying one thing really, you know, we’re here. Bang.

Are you saying that the sense of a beginning was a personal thing rather than aesthetic?

Betty Jackson Page 203 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

No, I think we thought that we were doing things that nobody else had done. I think we were fairly sure that we were doing things that nobody else had done. I think we were aware that you know, we were a sort of minority, but once we had access then everybody would fall into line behind, I suppose. But I don’t know whether we were even remotely organised in our thinking or planning about that. Certainly not as you are now. I mean you know, most students in their final year will say, oh they want to start up themselves or they’ll go into design studios or they’ll… and there wasn’t that sense of, oh my goodness, get sorted for the future, as there is now. We never doubted that there would be a future, there was never that sort of, oh my goodness, if you don’t get organised now, you never will, or you know, somebody else will step over you and you know, it won’t be your turn. There wasn’t anything like that at all, I think, I certainly had no doubt that there would be something the next day, you know. It was very casual, there wasn’t this sort of element of desperate pushing forward. We just did what came along really and, I think that’s what we did.

But what was it you thought you were doing differently from anyone else?

Only clothes-wise, you know, I think we [laughing] were relentless in our layering, we were relentless in our androgyny and I can only describe it as that tribal thing, really. You know, we still shopped in Oxfam shops, we still recycled clothes, we still, it was very much to do with a look. I mean at the same time, you know, Wendy was doing clothes for Roxy Music and all of that stage stuff, which she’d done I think when she came out of college, I can’t remember, but they were definitely on board before I joined. And it was, there was a sort of thing happening in London that we were part of, or I suppose we thought we led and simply because everybody, I mean there was Lynne who started her PR company, Lynne Franks had started that and she was at the cutting edge of that, so she always knew what was going to go on, what was happening, you know parties or events. There was Elaine Kingett who was a friend of Wendy’s at college who went to, was one of the fashion editors on Honey magazine so that was another link there. There was John who was a photographer who was you know, photographing still life and sometimes fashion, but definitely reportage and there was another thing going on there; he was part of a studio that you know, had things going on. There was still my mate Adrian who was by this time incredibly successful and having you know, shows and that was going on then. Betty Jackson Page 204 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

And there was Keith at Smile that was you know, doing brilliant things and colouring everybody’s hair this sort of odd colour that nobody had ever done before. And we had friends at the Royal College who were on MA courses who were graduating or who had, and you know, there was Stirling Cooper that was happening, Sheila Browne and Sheridan Barnett and there was a very much a feel of energy and excitement that we were part of, really. A lot of people at the Royal College were interior designers, product designers. There was just a sort of cultural aspect to it that linked us all. And really, all I can say is that everybody just had a good time, it seemed like we sort of ended up at a party every night. I think we did most nights actually.

How well did you know Lynne Franks?

Very well. Very well, because she took Wendy on, Wendy was a client, one of her early clients. And she, her biggest one at that time I suppose was Katharine Hamnett who had the company Tuttabankem at the time. And we, one of the most extraordinary incidents I can remember is going with Wendy to a restaurant called South of the Border and I don’t know whether it was Lynne’s Christmas party, but anyway there was a dinner – there was always dinners for sort of eighteen, twenty people which we always used to get invited to. I don’t know who the hell paid for them, but I certainly never did, but anyway. We were always included in this mix of people and I remember Katharine walking in, in this full- length fox fur coat and she was always, she was slightly older than we were and she was already successful, and so – I don’t think Wendy was – but I was certainly in awe of Katharine Hamnett. And she was, I mean she is very beautiful now, she was always incredibly beautiful and I mean so politically incorrect and she swanned in in this full- length fur coat, which I would die now, you know I couldn’t bear the thing, but it was just the magnificence of it and swept through this restaurant and the whole restaurant fell silent. We had a table upstairs for some reason, and I just remember the incident and thinking, you know, gosh, we’re really important, we’re really special. [laughs] Rather foolish really. And it’s the silly things like that that you remember.

What was Lynne Franks like?

Betty Jackson Page 205 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

Lynne was incredibly energetic, incredibly fast, incredibly knowledgeable, forceful – all of these things that she, you know, then went on to be, make hugely successful. And I think she always had a very special relationship with Wendy because Wendy was one of her first clients and she was certainly instrumental in bringing Wendy’s name to the front, I think. She supported and worked with her for a long time, long after I left. That’s the only real working relationship I’ve ever had. Lynne was one of those people who were very upset when I left Wendy and quite angry with me, I think when I left and never quite got over it. And then, I mean years later of course when we started up Betty Jackson, there was a question of who should handle the PR and we never actually worked together, because by that time she was a sort of real force and already doing the Labour Party and goodness knows what, so she was rather difficult to handle, I suppose. I think we’d have fought like mad, really. I think we’d have rowed quite a lot of the time. But we never got the opportunity because we never worked together. That’s a good thing, probably.

Did you like her?

Yes, I did. I mean she was, yes, I did. We used to see a lot of her, she was – I don’t know whether she was married, but she was with Paul Howie at the time who then, because we went to her wedding and we were – all of the professional relationships were really built on friendships. There were really never, there were none that really didn’t have that link, you know, it was all who you met and you know, there was always a relationship. We all went, we worked together and we played together I think, as well. Odd.

So she was part of your inner circle?

Definitely. Well we were part of hers, I think she’d [laughing] probably say. She became quite big quite quickly, really and you know, was a big figure in fashion circles in London quite quickly.

What was she like as a person?

Loud. Energetic, as I’ve said. Forceful, opinionated, you know all of the things that you need to be a PR really. Betty Jackson Page 206 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

And why was she so angry with you when you left Wendy Dagworthy?

I think she thought I had let her down, I think she always thought of me in one particular role and I mean, we didn’t work very well together Wendy and I, I mean we do now, when she comes here. And I think Wendy had a few seasons when she, she found a replacement. I mean we both found a replacement for me, but there wasn’t ever that personal link or that you know, huge respect for each other I think, that she had subsequently with her other assistants. I think it happened later on with ones that came after, but I think Lynne thought that I had left Wendy very vulnerable and I don’t think she ever forgave me for that.

And d’you think that was a fair judgement?

No, because I think that when I left it was, as I said before, very obvious that Wendy needed an assistant to organise things, to support her, to you know, be a general dogsbody and she could very easily cope with the rest of it. And I have a strong personality, you know, and there were lots of times – I think Lynne saw that and I think Lynne thought we supported each other very well, which we definitely did, but I don’t think Lynne ever thought about it from my point of view, really. And really thought that I did damage to Wendy, or damage occurred slightly later as a result of my leaving. I’m not sure that that’s true at all, but I definitely think Lynne thought that. And you know, maybe I was unaware of, because when I left, I mean I left and I went to a job that was instantly very demanding so, and you know we were almost then competitors of course, so there was a link that was severed for a while, definitely, even though you know, it was all done with good grace. And you know, I had to find my voice independently as a designer and I think, I think it, well it was definitely the right thing to do because I think both of us probably would have been frustrated. I mean Wendy, as I say, it was Wendy’s company and she was doing it, she was a great intuitive designer and you know, I do different things, I’ve always done different things. So I think it was, well it was definitely the right thing to do, but I think that Lynne thought that, really I think Lynne…

Betty Jackson Page 207 C1046/10 Tape 10 Side B (part 20)

So what was the process that led up to your leaving and the actual, you know, the specific reasons? Well, I think again it was a question of sort of meeting people really, and I had met, through Lynne Franks’ office – she had an office in Covent Garden – and she had a person called Lesley Goring who was working for her as her assistant. And then there was, and I can’t remember how this other person came in, but there was another PR, either she, who actually was the PR for Quorum and Radley, who I met through Lynne or Lesley or somewhere in the group of people that surrounded us. And she phoned up one day and said that Quorum were looking for a designer, would I go and see them. And actually I had flu at the time and I said, no, no, no, I wasn’t thinking of leaving and she said, well you know, you really ought to think about it because they need a designer, you will get frustrated if you spend any longer at Wendy’s and it’s the perfect opportunity because it’s a job and it’s a paid job. And she said at least come and see them for the interview. And I didn’t know really anything about Quorum, except I’d heard of Ossie Clark, obviously and Celia Birtwell and Alice Pollock, but they were sort of on, they’d had their moment of magnificence if you like and it was very opposite to the way I thought of things as well, I mean their look was very, very different. Although there was a company called Cooper’s that was also run underneath the umbrella of Quorum and Radley and we all loved what they did. There were two designers, Sheila Browne and Sheridan Barnett and Sheridan Barnett was a good friend of my friend Adrian, so I had met him. And we were all hugely in awe of Sheridan, he did the most beautiful clothes. And so did Sheila Browne. And so I sort of knew of it vaguely through that, but knew that Sheridan and Sheila were working for Cooper’s underneath this umbrella and that Ossie was still, for all intents and purposes at Quorum. And anyway, Lynne Cardy explained to me on the telephone that they really needed to do something and they needed a kick up the pants and she thought I was the person to do it.

[End of Tape 10 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 208 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21)

Tape 11 Side A [part 21]

It’s Friday the fourteenth of January 2005, this is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson and we’re starting tape eleven. And we ended last session more or less talking about your finishing up with Wendy Dagworthy and moving to Quorum, but just before we get really stuck into Quorum, I would like to ask you one or two more questions about your time with Wendy. You talked about the boutiques that ordered her clothes and how the clientele expanded from just a handful to twenty-five, thirty and so on, but you said very little about the sort of women who would buy the clothes and I wondered if you could say a bit more about her clients, the kind of people that she designed for.

Well, it was very much, started off obviously with friends and acquaintances really, but then it was similar to any designer starting today, I suppose it was sort of the celebrity little lot of London really. They were people who were in advertising, there were pop stars, there were models, there were you know, young society women really. Not really glamorous, I would say much edgier and much more independent and rather more creative than you know, glamoire really, because of Wendy’s philosophy and I think that they were sort of intellectually beautiful clothes as well as being aesthetically beautiful. So sort of not obviously sexy or revealing or anything like that, it was much more to do with being assertive and clear and confident about wearing things that were slightly different. Certainly were, they were different. I mean I remember really, you know that now this obsession with sort of following trends or being of you know the zeitgeist, of being of the newness and the thing and what’s the most important trend this season. And we never, ever, ever worried or even looked at that, the most important thing was to be different and so I think that that was, that sort of, that sort of encouraged a rather individual sort of clientele. You know, strong women, independent women, creative women, all of those people.

You mentioned last time about you know, the idea of women dressing for themselves, not for a man and that fits in with what you’ve just said.

Absolutely, and I think that both of us were absolutely at one and I think we’ve always thought that and we still do, you know. I think – and it was very definitely a minority Betty Jackson Page 209 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21) because what was on offer then was – I mean even though one had been through the sexual revolution of the sixties and there’d been a degree of independence, I’m not sure that, well women certainly weren’t financially independent at all and there were very few women in those top jobs and there were, you know, the fact was that we were about to have the first woman Prime Minister but I’m not sure if that was a good or a bad thing. [laughs] So you know, we were still really quite submissive to, if you had a partner, your partner. So I suppose as a group, I mean you know, the group of friends that we were acquainted with was made up of like minded women, but I’m sure we were in a minority.

And where do you think your own ideas about independence and women’s autonomy comes from?

I think I’ve always felt like that. I think I’ve never really felt that I would ever need to be dependent on somebody. I’ve always hated the idea of being dependent, I think it’s maybe something, probably something deep rooted in my mobility; I’ve always hated, I mean early on my parents I suppose, bred in me a degree of independence, you know. I could always do things, I was never restricted in anything, given the fact of the difficulty of mobility, but I was never told well, you can’t do that, you’ll have to wait for somebody to help you. I was always encouraged to, you know, to whatever, do anything remotely dangerous – climb trees, climb ladders – they never, I mean my mother’s heart must have skipped a beat many times, they never, ever, ever restricted me in any sporting activity or anything that I probably would have hurt myself probably more than anybody else. So I suppose that I was never, ever told that I couldn’t do something and I absolutely, even now I loathe having to wait for somebody to help, I loathe the idea of being dependent on somebody now. And so I think it’s just always been there. I think it was meeting Wendy and discovering that we thought so much the same about so many things was fortuitous really, it was just fortunate for me, certainly and you know, and then being introduced to you know, loads of young, progressive, professional women who thought in the same way and that was a very exciting time.

What sort of role model was your own mother?

Betty Jackson Page 210 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21)

Oh well she was always incredibly elegant and incredibly enthusiastic and incredibly supportive and so, I suppose you know, she was sort of there for a long time and she, she so enjoyed our lives, you know, I mean because my sister and I had very different lives I think, because she, as I said before, married childhood sweetheart and had three children and worked for a period of her life, but then with three children, stopped. And so you know, there was never, there was never, ooh, this is good and this is what you have to do or this is… I think we were always treated completely individually and she enjoyed both parts, because you know, she spent a lot of time with grandchildren, they were always, you know, more than one occasion she used to take them travelling and things like that and yet she absolutely loved my professional life. Having said that you know, probably, thinking about it now, my children, my daughter’s just about to leave home for the first time and you know, you sort of think about whether you equip them and you think about, and I’m sure that my mother felt the same. And maybe, you know, she thought because my life had been extraordinary in a small sort of way, I suppose she never had the normal expectations really, so maybe that was also why. But she was just incredibly encouraging, incredibly supportive and excited and you know, and very, she was a very positive person.

And how about her relationship with your father, the sort of power balance between them and that sort of thing?

Well my father was slightly more remote, simply because you know, that’s what people were, and worked very hard and was a very sort of clever, gentle man. She was much more the, you know the gregarious, outgoing, party person and he was sort of the solid, quiet one. But then you are aware that he made things happen for her and they had a very solid relationship too, you know, they were very close I think, so all of that was all quite confidence building I suppose.

Who made the decisions?

I think probably my father. My mother always administered justice [laughs] because she was better at that, I think he had difficulty with confrontation and you know, he always, I mean there was never, ‘Wait till your father comes home’, that sort of thing, I mean she always you know, frightened us to death when she was angry. And so there was not Betty Jackson Page 211 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21) anything like that, so I suppose, and she sort of lived, you know she lived her life and organised everybody really, I suppose, so there was a degree of independence I think, but you know, going back to their life it was much more to do with conformity in a small town and you know, the restrictions and the sort of things that are required of you in that sort of situation, really. Very, very normal I think.

And what about other influences on you, I mean it was a time of sort of you know, books coming out about women’s rights and debates and groups and…

I must say I wasn’t very political. We, as a family were horribly Tory and you know, my father was part of the Conservative Association in our local town and did all of that stuff and Rotary and that sort of stuff, so I remember the first time I actually voted socialist, I thought he would turn in his grave. But you know, he ran a small business and obviously they were the right party for him and his values. There was no real, you know it was just a sort of, I think it wasn’t until I really started to talk to other people at college that I became at all socially aware, or, because I think I’ve said before, there was never the division that there was in the outside world. I mean it sounds sort of Utopia, of course it wasn’t, but I mean my father ran a small factory, but had a relationship with his workforce that was absolutely you know, on equal status. You know, the boilerman used to come round for a drink and a chat and they used to meet in the pub and you know, and all of that sort of thing, so there wasn’t this sort of you know, management and white collar and worker situation, really. So I never grew up knowing about this division of labour, because all of the people that I met who were you know, this was the guy you know, who’d worked for my father for I don’t know, fifteen years, and this is what he did and he cleaned the shoes just before they went on to the thing, on to the conveyor belt to go out and be packed in a box or whatever, but his role was essential. And I was never taught anything other than that, so there wasn’t this sort of social difference, I think, I don’t remember it as being anyway. So I still have difficulty with that today, you know, I mean we don’t run this place as a hierarchical situation, except you know, we do take responsibility for the decisions that sometimes good or bad have to be made, you know, it’s not anybody else’s responsibility, it’s David or myself. But in, you know, David changes light bulbs, makes coffee for people, it depends who needs it most, so there isn’t, we don’t run it like that now anyway. So I think that that, this sort of sense of injustice I’ve never experienced. So Betty Jackson Page 212 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21)

I think politically I was very naïve indeed and you know, still avoid it I think, probably. I don’t like confrontation on that level although I’m you know, one is now aware black and white, you know, the injustices that are around and you know, and that’s really why I think a middle way is the only way forward, really.

So when and why did you first vote socialist?

[laughs] I think it was probably to do with my peer group at the time and you know, but I, it might have been a reaction against things that had you know, I’d heard or maybe the Tory candidate was a complete jerk, I don’t know. It was certainly a thing one felt and yet you see, I’ve gone on to run a small business and sort of not be part of a corporate, I mean I hate corporate, I hate anything to do with large organisations, really. I mean I wouldn’t like to be part of, the bits that I’ve had to do with them, I think that they’re very tricky places.

We’ll come back to that because you’ve worked for one or two quite large ones.

Yeah, but not fulltime, you know, not really. I mean Quorum, I’m off to in a minute, wasn’t really you know, a huge organisation by any means. It was run very much as a family business in fact.

You’ve done a lot of work for Marks and Spencer, haven’t you?

Yeah, yeah, but only as a consultant and that’s going in and stepping into the frame and stepping very firmly out of it, you know, at the end of the period. I wouldn’t really count that.

So how old were you when you voted…Labour, you mean Labour, yes?

Twenty-one or twenty-two. Twenty-one or twenty-two, yeah.

And it sounds as though your views did change, you know you didn’t just vote on a whim because your views now are different from those of your father. Betty Jackson Page 213 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21)

I think you can only, you know, when you take a, you can only do what your experiences tell you. It’s like anything, if you, you know more about it if it touches you and it was only – I mean don’t forget that I’d come from a very small town in the north of England where, you know and a very secure, loving, gentle home life, so for me the world opening up was, didn’t just happen overnight like that, it took time before you know, I got the thing in perspective I think. And that was only being in Birmingham, I mean I’m now in London obviously with Wendy, so that was sort of another layer if you like, and so you know gradually one has to look at one’s own experiences and take a view, which may change, you know, as your life develops I think. Also I think I’d chosen fashion, I mean fashion is very apolitical, it spans you know, across every political spectrum really, because whether you’re, you know, a factory floor worker or an executive, whatever you’re wearing has to be designed and made by somebody. Everybody wears clothes, so it cuts across the barriers.

Can you think of any event or milieu or period or anything where you began to think more socially?

Yes, I’m sure it’s to do with partners that I had at the time. You know, I went out with a few boyfriends who were very, very leftwing or came from a very leftwing background and one in particular came from a very wealthy socialist background, which then is a different matter entirely, you see, so there’s no chip on the shoulder, there’s a desire to you know, see the dawn for other people, really, from that perspective. So I think, like I said, the experience that I had meeting these people and having different relationships you know, whether as lovers or friends, then affects you and quite rightly, that’s how you become the person you eventually are I think.

Was he a particularly strong influence on you, do you think?

For a period of time. I don’t know whether influence is the correct thing, it was simply, because you know I’m not the sort of person who listens to somebody and then goes, oh yes, I think I agree with that, yes, yes, yes, fantastic, let’s do that. You know, what I’m talking about is I had never heard these sort of views, I had never experienced these sort of Betty Jackson Page 214 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21) conversations, I had never seen it from this point of view, so what I think happened was I got a much more balanced view. Having said that, I didn’t think that my view before was imbalanced, but what it was, was just knowledge, you know, I had no idea, I had not experienced that sort of discussion before and then during this period of time, I did. So I don’t think it’s a question of influence, I think it was a question of me really not being ignorant before.

Was this the chap that you were with when you first came to London?

Mm. Yeah.

Right, can you say anything more about him or it or that?

No, no, I don’t think we should really. [laughs] It’s about work isn’t it, it’s not about…

It’s about life and work.

About life. Well, I was with this person for a number of years, so he yeah, he was a good bloke for a number of years.

And I mean the feminist – if I can call it that – that didn’t necessarily flow from a socialist or a leftist or a socially aware outlook, sometimes they were in conflict even, so apart from the independence that was instilled in you in your childhood, how else do you think…?

Well, I think if you do what I do, I mean it is to do with, whether you like it or not, it’s the shallowness of appearance and I suppose – I think I’ve mentioned before – we were part of a group or individually we looked probably completely ridiculous and bizarre, so the emphasis as I said before was very much on one’s individual way of putting oneself together. So that sort of reinforced all of those feelings of, I am doing something, I am saying something that nobody has said before. I am doing something new, this is the most important, I am making a statement about this, which nobody will have seen quite in this way. And that was I think a criteria that ran through everything we did. Of course it Betty Jackson Page 215 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21) wasn’t true in everything we did, we were following a pattern of events that happens to everybody at that period in their life, but I suppose because of the nature of the work, you know, it sort of encouraged individual thought, even if it was on a very superficial level.

And the time that you spent with Wendy, how much did you discuss these sort of…?

Oh, nothing at all, not at all, it was all very, I don’t remember ever having any sort of political discussion with her. I think it was all to do, our time was taken up very much with our work and then, you know, it was pure altruistic pleasure, I suppose.

How did the clients get to hear of her and of her designs?

That I don’t know. I mean she was, she did get quite a lot of press at the time, simply because I think we were doing things, she certainly was doing things that nobody was doing and you know, just in the same, you know there were lots of sort of - there are not now - but you know, well I suppose there’s Femail - but there were lots of women’s pages that devoted themselves to you know, exciting little things that were happening and of course there wasn’t the High Street as it is now, there literally was just Marks and Spencer’s probably and you know, Marshall and Snelgrove. But all of the goods that were available, that are available now were not there you know, so your choice as a woman and certainly as a young woman was fairly limited. So I suppose anything new and individual was really quite newsworthy and what Wendy was doing was lovely. And plus, she - she still is – an extremely attractive person, you know I don’t think I’ve ever, in all my years of knowing her met anybody who dislikes her or who has a wrong word to say about her; she’s incredibly engaging, she’s hugely charismatic, so I suppose you know, she met journalists and they wanted to give her a bit of a leg up you know, and publicity and encouragement really.

Can you tell me a bit more about how and why you decided to leave and you touched on that last time.

Well, I think I said I wasn’t really looking for it and it just came and I suppose it planted the seed that I couldn’t be somebody’s assistant all the time. You know, I’m quite a sort of Betty Jackson Page 216 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21) strong, bossy, overbearing sort of person [laughs], so to imagine that it would go on forever and nothing goes on forever, good or bad, was foolish really. But I didn’t, I mean the thing that I want to stress, I didn’t join Wendy with the idea of using her as any sort of stepping stone. We didn’t think like that at all, there was no question really about what the future may hold or

[break in recording]

Slight interruption there to close the window and hopefully cut out the drilling sound or whatever it is that we were hearing just now.

So no question about whether indeed you know, one had a future or where it was going. I mean I didn’t ever think that I was sort of on a path you know, that would develop in any way really, I was just, we were just enjoying ourselves. So when I got this call from this person at Quorum, my first reaction was to say, ooh no, no, no, couldn’t possibly, sorry, you know, far too busy this week. And it was she who actually said, well I’d just really like you to think about it, because there might not be another opportunity and you must think about you. And I suppose that really planted the seed and then I did think, I did stop to think about what I would do eventually and indeed whether or not, what I never wanted was that it would turn bad with Wendy, I never wanted it to be a battle of wills, I never wanted it to be you know, a question of somebody having to take the upper hand, because she was always so lovely in this relationship and always you know, was careful that we did things together. I mean I said before, it was definitely her business and definitely she was responsible and definitely, you know, she was the one who deserves the credit for everything. So I was very much the support act here and you know, this person said, well don’t you have something to say yourself. So I suppose I thought it was better to do it then and actually if I made a big mistake, then I would do it before it got serious or before I did any real damage to Wendy by leaving her at a time where, you know maybe it did get a bit more complicated. And certainly by then, she was doing very well, I mean it was great, it was exciting. I mean on a small scale, but she was doing, I mean she went on to do much greater things, but it was on a small scale and it was you know, going along really very nicely. And so almost, you know notwithstanding the friendship we had and the relationship we had on that level and you know the fact that we sort of understood each Betty Jackson Page 217 C1046/10 Tape 11 Side A (part 21) other, you know that soul mates thing, it was, I was replaceable. I mean everybody’s replaceable, but I was very definitely replaceable by another body who could do, it wasn’t rocket science, could do what I was doing. And so that’s what I did.

Had you consciously had any sort of sense of frustration – I think this person said to you that you would become frustrated if you continued in that situation?

Yeah, no I don’t know why that was, but I hadn’t. I suppose because you know, we worked together and we played together and it was just a jolly good time really. So, you know I’m sure it was, one sees things, well I see things horribly, obviously through rose tinted glasses, but you know I can’t remember thinking oh, you know, bugger, if I’d have done that, I’d have done it better. It never arose. I think because we thought the same about lots of things, we like the same things, we still do. You know, I’m a great admirer of her as a person and of her style and that’s never left me really.

[End of Tape 11 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 218 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22)

Tape 11 Side B [part 22]

So how did you broach the subject of leaving with her?

Well I’ve blanked this out, obviously, because it was so horrid. [laughs] I think I just said that I’d been approached – well actually I went to the interview, but I went to talk to them first. In fact I went to talk to them the day after the phone call, because I think I told you this, I was in bed with flu when I got the phone call, and so this person, this PR, Lynne said well, just come along and have a chat. I think also she was very clever because she thought that you know, if I got back into it, you know into the swing, if I got back there would never be a time where I could extricate myself from Wendy, or never be a time where I could say, oh I’m not coming in this morning, I’m going for… So she said, well why don’t you just come and talk about it and just see. So I remember, and she said oh, bring your portfolio, which I hadn’t got one since, you know, I’d left college for goodness’ sake. So I remember doing, I did a few drawings on practically the backs of envelopes, honestly, shocking really, or you know, just on a few bits of paper and I just sort of drew out things, shapes and things, there were maybe three or four, that was all. Pathetically tragic. And shoved them in my pocket, went along with sort of you know, runny, bright red nose and met one of the directors, Jeff Cooper , and he was my first – I didn’t meet Radley, the guy who owned it, at all – and he interviewed me and said – and he was, he had been part of the company Stirling Cooper, which had been a huge success of course in the sixties and seventies, and then he had split with Ronnie Stirling and gone under the Radley umbrella to do his own label which was called Cooper’s. So Quorum, under the Radley umbrella there was Radley which was the Miss Selfridge sort of High Street printed frocks thing, Quorum which was the higher end and Cooper’s which was very much a young sportswear, casual wear, trendy sort of Gap stroke French Connection sort of feel. And he was the guy who I met. And I went in my pink dungarees and pink hair and red jacket and stripy socks and you know, badges all over me, looking ridiculous – with a red nose to match – and had a chat and he was obviously quite intrigued I think. Then I remember getting these drawings, these - now crumpled – pathetic [laughing] drawings out of my back pocket and sort of saying oh well, you know, this is the sort of feel I do and this is how I feel as a designer and this is you know, what I draw and then he took me round the offices in, it was just off the Kings Road in Burnsall Street where they Betty Jackson Page 219 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22) had their headquarters, and showed me sample rooms. And for me I had never been in a situation like that, I had never been anywhere where there were other pattern cutters and permanent sample machinists and every designer had a separate room and you know, there was a fabric store that was huge, you know, and Ossie was still there and had this fantastic studio down the whole of the building, which was just light and cutting tables and it just looked fantastic, it just looked absolutely amazing to me. And that was the end of that and then within an hour I think, Lynne telephoned me and said they really want you to start immediately. And, I knew about Ossie Clark, but I didn’t know anything about Radley or Cooper’s or I mean I knew about Ossie Clark because he was coming out of the Royal College when I was still at school and he was one of these people. I also knew about Cooper’s – they had two designers called Sheila Browne and Sheridan Barnett, there was another one called Marie France, but Sheridan Barnett and Sheila Browne, they were sort of icons of our age really, and doing fantastic things. And there were people like Antony Price and you know, who were all doing the High Street. I mean they were major names, big players, you know. This was what was available for you. I mean I remember going, when I must have been – I don’t know whether I was still at college or I was certainly just illustrating when I went – and I remember saving up for a Sheridan Barnett coat, which I’ve still got in a trunk in my cellar. And it was thirty-five pounds, this coat and it was a swing coat with huge square shoulders and just one big massive button, grey gabardine and I thought it was the most beautiful coat. But I had to save up for about a month for this coat for thirty-five pounds. And you know, they had kudos, these people, they were, and for me to be a part of this was a huge thing. I mean I was rather overwhelmed by it really, I didn’t know how I’d managed to end up there, really. Except that Wendy by this time was very, very well thought of, but then Wendy was Wendy and I was the assistant, so anyway. So anyway they offered me the job and I think I went the following day back to Wendy and said we should look for somebody else if it was alright, and it was horrible, really horrible. And she was absolutely, she never flinched, she was brilliant about the whole thing and I think, I can’t remember what we did, but I remember putting the successor in place. I remember we talked to Lynne Franks, we talked to lots of people and it was – I think Lynne never quite forgave me for leaving Wendy. Although, I don’t know, because Wendy was the force, you know, certainly not me, I think she always thought I’d cheated on Wendy. But anyway, I don’t know quite why. So we found my successor and I Betty Jackson Page 220 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22) left and that was it and it was weird and odd, and real life kicked in. [laughs] It was very different.

You say she never flinched, how do you think she felt?

I’ve no idea, I don’t think we ever talked about it. I talk about it to her husband John, who also I think took a while to forgive really, or accept or whatever you want to say. But Wendy’s very pragmatic, you know, she never gets blown off course, she’s incredibly strong. You know, she never gets over-emotional about things, she, she obviously gets hurt and she obviously, you know I’m not saying that you know she’s this, but she was incredibly balanced and incredibly straightforward about it, really. You know, let’s just get on with it, that sort of attitude, which was fantastic.

And how did you feel?

Well I was sad, I was sad, I was guilty, I was you know, I absolutely loved – well, still do – love Wendy and we just did so much together. You know, it was almost like that sort of, almost an adolescent period in our designer lives, really. And you know, she taught me a lot and I hope I supported her in the beginning, you know. And it was that there was, it was my first sort of job, I suppose, but what was fantastic was that it taught me how you could enjoy things, you know. It needn’t be pressure – well of course there was pressure – but you could then, Wendy could always laugh at something, Wendy could always, she had a great sense of humour and she could always see the light-hearted side of something. She never got bogged down in you know, the trauma of you know, sticky situations. She always saw the bright side and she went on to, you know, much, much greater things really. I don’t know, we never, like I said she was always very straightforward about it.

What did you think would happen to that relationship with her when you left?

I don’t think I, I mean I don’t think I thought that it would stop, I hoped it would continue. Because we had a strong friendship as well, you know, and there was a big social bond and you know, we saw the same people and we went out together to clubs and music and you know, there was a group of us so I didn’t think that that would stop. Betty Jackson Page 221 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22)

And did it?

It sort of, there was a bit of a tricky moment I think, there was a bit of a sort of shaky thing. But I think also Wendy must have diffused that too and you know, shut up, let’s get on with it, you know. I think if anybody criticised me she didn’t really listen. So I will always be grateful to her for that. But I think that there were probably six months when you know, people started to talk about competition and people started to talk about you know, one success at the expense of another, but I don’t believe that that ever happened and I still don’t believe that ever happened, even when, after we started our own business people obviously made comparisons, but you know, Wendy’s statement is very different from mine. You know, even if we have the same philosophy, you give us both a double- breasted jacket to draw and we will draw different double-breasted jackets. Mine is mine and hers is hers. So there’s room for everybody, even if you have the same philosophy about you know, how women should dress or the independence or the strength of women or the sexuality of women, which I do think we think similarly about. We do very different things and always have done.

In what way similarly?

Only about what we touched before on. You know, women not having to be overtly sexual or, in their dress, to be attractive or whatever you want to call it.

How did a grey gabardine coat fit in with your pink and red and stripes and what not?

I can’t remember, but I remember wearing it all the time. I used to wear a man’s hat. It sort of looked like [laughs], it looked like, I suppose Withnail and I or something. It like you know, a man’s coat. I used to wear a lot of very wide, Oxford bag trousers and you know, men’s trilby hats, misshapen, pulled down and Fair Isle jumpers buttoned up, on top very sort of – how can I describe it? – dreadfully Annie Hall I suppose, but long before the film came out, I think. So it was part of that androgynous cover up, I’m not a girl, sort of thing, really. [laughs]

Betty Jackson Page 222 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22)

How did Quorum get to know about you?

No idea. They must have known about Wendy. And also because – well, I do know, that’s nonsense. I knew, through Lynne Franks, I think I’ve said before that one of the first people who worked for her was a girl called Lesley Goring who then subsequently went on to also run her own business, and she knew, and they used to share an office, or she knew this person who was the PR. I suppose it’s PR city this, everybody knows everybody else. And because Radley and Quorum were considered quite high players really, Lynne Cardy was a well-known PR, she was an in-house PR, she only worked for them, and she knew Lesley Goring and Lynne and I think she got to know me, she obviously knew Wendy, but she got to know me slightly more through Lesley Goring because we used to, she was part of the same social group really.

But how did she know about your capabilities as a designer?

I think she took a huge risk. I don’t think she knew at all. I think, well I subsequently of course found out that both Sheilagh and Sheridan had given their notice in, so this wasn’t talked about at all in the interview, I didn’t know that they were actually probably rather desperate. I thought I was going to join a team of designers and in fact, when I joined, by the time I joined, everybody else had fled. So they were obviously in a tricky moment and needed somebody rather desperately. I didn’t know that, so maybe they were desperate enough to take a risk with me, I don’t know.

Why did they leave all at that time?

I’ve absolutely no idea. I mean I know Sheilagh very well now, I don’t know Sheridan so well, but I absolutely don’t know. Sheilagh did actually open her own company, she started off by herself, but I’m not sure whether she did that immediately. It’s all very vague and I can’t, I absolutely can’t remember, we’d have to look it up in a fashion book of events in the 1970s.

Can you explain a bit more about Quorum and Radley and how it all hung together?

Betty Jackson Page 223 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22)

Well, Quorum had been started by, with Alice Pollock and Ossie Clark as being partners at first, and then Celia was married to Ossie of course at the time and responsible for his prints, but it was very much Alice and Ossie. By the time – and they had huge, huge, huge success in the early seventies, I suppose really when I was still accidenting in Birmingham and all of those things – and they were sort of after Biba and you know, the new independents and very definitely glamorous, I mean you know, hugely sought after by every major celebrity in the world really, I mean. So huge, huge, huge business and then inevitably, you know events overtook them and I think they forgot to keep pace with the workload really. It’s very difficult to reinvent yourself after you’ve had such huge success, if somebody isn’t pointing you in the right direction and this was very much a company that did have huge success and then spent the huge success very, very quickly and became part of – I mean I think it was quite a brief period really, that they were so influential, certainly out of London – and Radley was a rag trade company who came in and bought the label, in order to back them, put money in, which they obviously very badly needed and you know, the exchange – I mean I don’t how that happened – but the exchange presumably was that they would keep both Ossie and Alice on as designers and they would market the collection in a much more controlled way, whilst getting a spin-off for their High Street, Miss Selfridge collection. Quorum was very expensive, I mean it was chiffon frocks and all cashmere and you know, hand-woven tweeds and it was very expensive, I mean it was certainly not, you know, for everybody. So I think that, Radley really had a vision before anybody else did that he could harness this talent and use it and interpret it as well in a less expensive way and make it available to all. So I think as far as that’s concerned, he definitely had a vision. Whether people – because the rag trade were really working off the back of Mary Quant, Biba, all of that sort of London, swinging London sort of thing, and doing incredibly well, I think internationally. So he was the first one, I think, or the only one really when you think of all of those other companies like Louis Caring and Shubette and Susan Small – no Susan Small was probably a little more, had a little more integrity. But the other side of the coin was Jaeger and Austin Reed and Daks, you know, there wasn’t anything young and groovy if you like, available – dreadful word, but you know what I mean. So I think Radley was the first one to have the vision that he could harness this talent and turn it into something that could be available on a much larger scale. But they had terrible rows, they had, it was, they were difficult bedfellows really. Each one, I think Al Radley had huge respect for Ossie, but he didn’t respect his Betty Jackson Page 224 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22) work ethic and it always frustrated him that he had this talent and he didn’t work. Certainly by the time I had got there, Ossie was a rather sort of fantastic figure who was indulged I think, and everybody sort of hoped that he would – I mean he was genius, I think he was a genius – but everybody rather hoped that he would want it again and I think it was much later on after the whole thing had blown up and he’d left, that he really did want to work, but he forgot how to do it, he forgot what that meant I think, hard work. David Hockney always used to say that Ossie forgot he had to work. You can’t, it just doesn’t happen. Because I think everything had come so easily to him after college, but he was the most, well I was frightened to death by him really, because he used to come bursting into the room and you know. I mean he was one of those people, you know, had, I was given this room which had a window and about three foot away from this window was a high brick wall, so there was very little natural light and it was a tiny little room and I was expected to sit at this desk and draw. And I had been used to, of course, doing many more things than that you know, so this was quite a frightening, it was like being put in a cell, yeah. Also it was right by the toilets and I remember going, my first day going to the loo and seeing Alice sitting on the toilet with no clothes on at all reading The Times. And I just sort of said, ‘Hello’. [laughs] And she you know, barely looked at me because I was the new girl and it was a bizarre place. But you know, Ossie used to sort of burst through with this energy and you know, this beautiful man really, but flawed, flawed genius really.

What were the nature of their rows?

Oh I wasn’t party to that, it was just an undercurrent that you’d hear from seamstress to seamstress, you know, that would say you know, there’s been another row. Or, Radley was based up in Great Portland Street of course, with all the rag trade and we were very grandly in the Kings Road and you know, we used to get visits from the directors, you know, when everybody’d, and Ossie just didn’t give a shit. He just actually just didn’t give a shit and demanded I think, probably quite rightly you know, as genius befits a man, he demanded the moon and they had difficulty giving him the moon. They maybe tried in their own way, but it just wasn’t enough.

What was he demanding?

Betty Jackson Page 225 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22)

I think he wanted the best, I think he wanted stardom – which he had anyway, but I don’t think, I think when you’ve, it must be very difficult to come to terms with other people coming up behind you or you know, the fading of the star or whatever you want to put. I don’t think he was very equipped for that, Ossie, I think he was only equipped for success and good times really, I think he had difficulty coping when it went wrong. And so they required new things and new things required a lot of effort, so there was a lot of people surrounded him, supporting him, waiting for the big idea, you know. And when he got on the cutting table you know, he would just cut things out in beautiful printed chiffon, beautiful colours and suddenly there’d be a sort of dress on the stand. But then he would get bored very easily and go off and you know. I remember one morning him rushing into my room saying, ‘I’ve just done the most significant sleeve, let’s go to Picasso and have a bottle of Champagne’. So we did. And it was you know, half past ten in the morning and came in wearing this sleeve, which was lovely, you know, very much his sort of thing, not at all my sort of thing, but you know, it doesn’t take a lot to recognise genius and he definitely was a genius. And that’s the way he was, you know. He needed a lot of fuel really.

And what was it about the sleeve that wasn’t your sort of thing?

Oh it was much prettier and softer and more feminine than I was doing at that moment. I mean there was a big new movement, you know that my generation of designers, you know we wore thick tweed and layered it, you know whereas Ossie was very much to do with satin back crepe and fluid fabrics and chiffon and transparency and all of that we rather despised, you know we were the new thing who cut things differently, over-sized things, you know nothing that was remotely to do with his silhouette at all. So, yes we were very different. But as far as the company was run, it was actually run as very separate divisions, so we were Quorum and expected to produce a collection every season, of which Ossie had his own collection and I had mine. There was another designer who worked there, called Rose Bradford, who worked sort of in a bit of a sort of grey area, I never really understood. She was employed by Radley, almost to rip Ossie off and do interpretations. She was an incredibly commercial designer and I think probably had the most financial success, but as I say you know, I thought I was joining a team and Sheila and Sheridan legged it before I got there. So I started from scratch there, really. Then Betty Jackson Page 226 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22) there was the other division, Cooper’s, which was in another building over in the West End, in East Castle Street, they had their own separate bit and…

Part of Quorum?

Part of Quroum, yeah. No, part of Radley, not part of Quorum. There was Quorum, Cooper’s and Radley, but they were all run individually. They were all expected to produce their own goods, deliver their own goods, I don’t know what the invoicing situation was, but certainly the division was very definitely there.

But Radley owned Quorum…

Radley owned…

…and Cooper’s?

Radley owned Quorum and I think, didn’t own completely Cooper’s, but certainly had the majority shareholding because Jeff Cooper had to report to Radley. Something that he was always a bit pissed off about, but definitely Al Radley had the purse strings on most things, on all of it in fact.

And had Ossie Clark always worked in this way that you’ve described?

I don’t know, I think he was always very flamboyant, but as I say, I got there and saw really almost the end of the whole thing. When I, I mean I really can’t remember, I would have to look it up, but they were still doing shows for Ossie. He had had the maddest sort of fashion shows when he was independent and I think Al Radley footed the bill for several big fashion shows, Ossie Clark shows that we were, you know I didn’t show, but we were all caught up in the excitement and the preparation of the whole thing and indeed went to them. And some of them were successful and others weren’t. But I remember the sort of drama of it, but being uninvolved really, it wasn’t my problem, so, and you know, and I think that Ossie sort of tolerated me really. I mean I think, I don’t think there was any respect on his part, he just thought what the bloody hell is she doing here, you know Betty Jackson Page 227 C10461/10 Tape 11 Side B (part 22) and as long as she’s not too irritating, you know, I’ll say hello to her. And treated me very much like, you know, I knew my place, very definitely. It was much later on, of course, he left and then by that – because I was at Quorum for six years, so that’s quite a long time – and by that time my things were quite successful and you know, people had started to listen to me and obviously realised that you know, I had something to say and I’d sort of gradually got myself involved in you know, a lot of things and then I started to do, to design Cooper’s as well – I’m skipping across a number of years [laughs] really. So he, for me he cut a tragic figure, I think, I would say. You know, you sort of knew that probably his time was up and it would be lovely if it wasn’t, but the writing was already on the wall, probably. His great days had gone.

[End of Tape 11 Side B] Betty Jackson Page228 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23)

Tape 12 Side A [part 23]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson, it’s still Friday the fourteenth of January 2005 and we’re starting tape twelve and we’ve got that drilling or cutting or whatever in the background again, let’s hope it quietens down in due course. You were talking about Ossie Clark and you said you know, you thought his sort of peak was coming to an end or something like that. Do you want to say a bit more about that?

There was a new generation of designers that were coming up and slightly understanding more maybe, you know, what people wanted and much more to do with you know, the emergence of daywear on a bigger scale I think, probably. It’s very difficult because when you’re part of something you sort of can’t separate yourself off. There was very definitely a new feeling of what people wanted to wear, it was also you know, and the rejection against, you know all the fluidity that had been around and the murky colours that had been around with Biba and all of that time I suppose. And a sort of snappier, sharper sort of design was emerging I think, really. Then people started to look at overseas designers, you know Kenzo was very young and Kenzo’s Jungle Jap had just started, Joseph had just opened the shop for that and you know, that was hugely successful and people were starting to wear, wrapping themselves in knitwear you know, voluminous great knits with huge stripes and the scale of things was changing, really rather radically I think. And so, he had been successful with one – well, with one sort of look and I think if you are and you have been so influential in one area, then it’s really quite tricky to change, people do like to put you in a box and say this is what you can do and this is what you do and certainly I think he did design with a certain look. And he found it very difficult to change, well he wasn’t interested in changing, he always thought he was the best. His confidence never suffered, he always thought it was other people who were wrong, not himself. He treated most of the rest of the world with contempt.

It’s interesting, this whole question about changing isn’t it, changing with the times and yet still retaining your own sense of whatever your…

Interpretation. Yeah, I think it’s very important, I think it becomes more and more important – well, I mean for me it’s been, because I’ve been around so long now. But you Betty Jackson Page229 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) know, I can say this because I think we were one of those designers who everybody thought they knew what we did, but actually they didn’t and we had moved on in lots of different ways and people were sort of unaware and maybe didn’t want to see it, because Betty Jackson, she does, oh well that’s the sort of look that she does now. There’s somebody else coming along – who can I think of, anybody – Jasper Conran does a completely different sort of look and he’s here so we can pigeonhole him there and then next to that Katharine Hamnett and she has an entirely different sort of… so that’s if we want that sort of clothing, we go to her, if we want that sort of thing we go to him, then there’s Caroline Charles and then there’s Roland Klein and all of those people and we’re all doing completely different things. But now, you wouldn’t, I mean you wouldn’t say, well first of all not, half of them aren’t producing clothes any more, but nevertheless you know, if we had carried on doing the same thing that we did then, you know which is illustrated round the room we’re sitting in, you know, it would be ridiculous. You know, you can see the volume entailed in one of our very, very first collections and you know, the sort of look that we were purporting to do and you can also see what we do now. So I mean it’s, you know fashion, the good thing about fashion’s its reinvention, the good thing about fashion is that it moves along, the good thing about fashion is that it develops, it’s exciting, it’s new, it’s, but, within those parameters each designer interprets it in their own way. And that’s what we have done and that’s what Ossie couldn’t do, I think. I think he could, he was brilliant at what he did, but he found it very difficult to move on from that. Obvious, when he’d had so much success at doing what he had done.

And this work ethic, as you called it, do you think that was there from the beginning, or when did that begin?

I’ve no idea. I mean I wasn’t, I didn’t know him at all. I knew him, the legend of, the legend that was Ossie and you know, only from speaking to people who had worked with him and for him for quite a long time, you know there were sort of myths and stories around, bizarre things and I think it’s well documented in the press, you know, and there’s books as well about you know, the excesses and the good times that were around. And I think a lot of his – I mean I would, you know, it’s very difficult, it’s an easy trap to fall into, this sort of social aspect of this particular discipline. You know, you can easily get caught up with somebody wants to wear something at some thing and oh will you come Betty Jackson Page230 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) along to, and oh would you be, and it’s a sort of part of the industry that I’ve never really quite understood, I’ve never really got to grips with it. It’s the bit that I don’t enjoy at all. You know, I like a good party, but I don’t like this display aspect, this, you know, I’ve always thought it was very odd. But anyway, more of that probably later. And I think that you, as a designer, it’s not something that you switch off outside the hours of nine to five. You know, stimulation happens all the time, you know, you can be excited or inspired by anything any time and I know a lot of people who work only at night and a lot of people who work you know, at odd times during the year. So given that you don’t switch it off, in any situation you can be inspired, you can be stimulated, it can give you another idea, you know, it can spur you on to doing something and I think that you can easily confuse a social situation you know, being inspired by the event than actually sitting down and working it out on paper or working it out in toile form or pattern form.

Are you saying that’s what he did?

I think, I don’t know, I can’t be judgmental about him at all because I think it was up to him and I think it must have been an extraordinary time for him because you know, you really, we did honestly you know, have kings and queens and starlets and you know, American and Dubai princesses and the Sultan of Brunei and all of those people just coming through the offices, you know. And then beautiful girls were always you know, Patti Boyd was absolutely stunning and all of those girls who were models or didn’t really do very much and you know, his life was surrounded by grace and beauty I think. So it is tricky really, but I would never be, I’m not, I hope I’m not sounding like an old granny here saying, oh, if he’d only worked harder. It was entirely his decision, I think he, it was entirely his decision, I had absolutely nothing to do with him on that level. Like I say, I’m sure he felt that he had to acknowledge my presence, but certainly I think, certainly in the first couple of years he held me in utter contempt. [laughs]

How was that manifest?

Oh, you could tell. [laughing] You can tell, it was very easy. I mean you know, you needn’t be such a sensitive soul. I mean it was a small office, it was a similar size – no, Betty Jackson Page231 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) probably a bit bigger than this - small office, so you know, you ran into each other, you know, it was obvious, it was just obvious.

Did he talk down to you, did he…?

Oh yeah, absolutely. He, if he did stop me, sometimes he’d ignore me completely. It got better, he got, he was nicer to me later on and then certainly, you know, met him several times after he’d left and he went through really hard times, but then there was always somebody – I met him at a number of fabric fairs you know, and there was always somebody in tow that was about to finance a new venture, or about to you know, do something different with him. And he was always, he did get to be a bit nicer, a little bit more, I don’t know, respectful or whatever, I don’t know. But I’m sure he hated the very thought of anybody else being there besides him.

What did the other people there think of him?

Oh, held him in huge regard. Huge regard. There was a sort of, you tread carefully, you be careful what you say and be careful what you do, because this man is a genius.

What did he look like?

Slight, thin, long dark hair, pointy sort of features. He must have been, I mean I think the ravages of the substances had taken control by the time I met him, really, but he must have been, he must have been quite beautiful, really. Very energetic moved and very graceful and absolutely utterly camp, gay, big time.

So how, where was Celia Birtwell in all this?

Well she had been before and you know, he – don’t forget this was probably still illegal wasn’t it, then? I don’t know, I can’t remember when it was, let’s not think about the dates, but you know, homosexuality was probably a criminal offence. So he got married, I mean similar situation I mentioned before, my great friend Adrian Cartmell , he got married and realised much later, but everybody knew, but he never, ever, ever Betty Jackson Page232 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) acknowledged it until you know, I suppose it struck him in the face really. I mean Ossie married Celia and had two sons and they lived a rather wonderful, domestic existence in Notting Hill. I mean they had a beautiful flat, you know, and she, I don’t know, I’ve no idea, you know, it wasn’t something that we ever talked about, but I did know Celia because she came back in later years to work for Quorum after he had gone. She came back to do her own collection for Quorum. Much, much later.

But they worked together as well, didn’t they?

They did, yes. She used to do prints for him. She used to do prints for other people as well, but then it became mainly for him. I mean the most beautiful little drawings, most beautiful and you know, they just, and then she designed, you know they used to work in collaboration and she’s a small, very striking, very sort of soft, feminine woman and I’m sure a lot of the things were designed with her in mind, you know.

And were they still together at this time that you’re talking about?

I don’t think so, no I think they, no I think he was openly homosexual, I think they’d divorced or whatever they did, before.

So she wasn’t around?

I can’t remember her being around. If she was, she certainly wasn’t in the first two or three years, but I think that she was still very much in touch with Ossie and certainly all of his staff, all his machinists, seamstresses, people knew her and she might have visited now and again, but I can’t remember why she would do that. There’s a lot of footfall, a lot of action in the building really, it certainly wasn’t, you know, there were a lot of visitors. People used to come and have a drink or come and have a cup of coffee or come and you know, sit around for sometimes the whole day, in his studio.

Did you get to know her?

Betty Jackson Page233 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23)

Later on I did, when she – but I wouldn’t say that we’re intimate. I think she had a very, very difficult time with him and you know, and it affected her forever really.

How?

I’ve no, I mean that’s really something I’m, you’re asking me to make a judgment on somebody else’s relationships and I can’t really. She’s, I only know her, certainly not intimately, but I think she’s rather wonderful. I think she’s very talented too. But she’s a different generation from me really, so I wouldn’t say that we know each other well at all and I certainly wouldn’t presume to comment on their, whatever happened between them.

What makes you say she had a difficult time and it affected her forever?

Well only because of what was reported. Everybody knows that it was you know, it was a very volatile relationship, that’s all.

Not something you observed personally?

No.

And when you came to Quorum, what had they actually offered you, what had they hired you as?

To do two ranges a year, two collections a year and it would be called Betty Jackson for Quorum, so I’d have the label within the umbrella of Quorum. And to do a young, fashionable collection that would not be as grand as Ossie’s, but much more to do with the daywear and you know, sort of normal clothes, everyday wear that they could sell. So a commercial, sort of edgier look.

Tell me about your first day there.

Well, my studio as I said was a very small room with a pattern table in and a desk and a telephone and one seamstress. And if it hadn’t been for her, I think I would have left after Betty Jackson Page234 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) the first day. [laughs] Because I didn’t really know what I was doing, I think. And this seamstress in fact is still a great, great friend and came to work for me when I left Quorum and she was a sort of surrogate grandmother to my children and has become a big family friend. And she was Polish, her name was Irene Karolak and she smoked cigarettes with a cigarette holder and spoke in this very attractive accent and called everybody darling, and was a brilliant seamstress, but also a highly intelligent woman. You know, had been abducted when she was sixteen and taken off to a labour camp in Russia with all her family and lived there for however long that happened and then literally took her brother and two sisters and walked back to Poland with them and one day they woke up and the gates were open, you know. But saw her grandmother and mother die in the camp. Her father was taken behind their house and shot. So, really an extraordinary life. But this woman was incredibly attractive and had danced her way through Palestine and Syria and you know, joined the army and had majors and colonels fall in love with her and was an extraordinary woman. And incredibly well read and cultured and all of this, so I was just lucky beyond belief to have her in my little cell with me. And she was an extraordinary woman and gradually her story unfolded in the bits in between. And she was always so incredibly knowledgeable about you know, what you could achieve and how you could do things. And so I went in and started to draw and I started to look at, you know choose fabrics and instruct my pattern cutter who was the grumpiest girl on the planet, hardly talked to me at all. It was quite cross that she’d been put with the new girl and wasn’t excited about the prospect at all. So all in all, it was actually quite difficult. Having said that, we did have a sort of moderate amount of success with the range and you know, and it grew and grew from there, really.

So tell me about this collection, how you, from soup to nuts [?] as it were, you start out with what?

Well, I started doing – the other different thing of course was that there was a sort of board of directors that you had to, I couldn’t say oh, I’m going to just go down Shepherd’s Bush market and buy ten metres of gabardine, I had to plan the collection, I had to draw it up, I had to swatch it up, I had to choose swatches of cloth that I wanted and then I had to go and present it to the sales team and the board of directors in order that they said, yes, you can buy that and yes, you can buy this. But the thing about Quorum was, of course, Betty Jackson Page235 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) because of Celia, and Alice and Ossie, they had incredible facilities – and because of what Sheridan and Sheila had done, they could produce a tailored suit beautifully, but they could also print chiffon and silk and goodness knows what, so this is really what happened, you know, to me big time, was that I discovered you could do your own prints, which I had never been able to do with Wendy of course. And I discovered that anybody could draw anything and then somebody could take it away and it would be put on cloth. So that’s really what happened to me. And so it was, you know, gradually possibilities became obvious and little by little I suppose I started to stamp my own personality on it a little bit. I mean I had the PR, Lynne Cardy , she was incredibly supportive during the period and used to breeze in and check that everything was okay. But, literally I used to draw things, I used to see fabric agents, I used to choose cloth, they used to send swatches, I used to make up the range, you know build the range from fabrics and say, I want this to go with this, and this to go with this, and therefore I want this in this colour. And it wasn’t a big range I was expected to do, but nobody, I don’t remember anybody saying, you will be expected to do a range of forty garments, you know. A range was a range and it consisted of coats through to evening wear; you know it was a range of garments for people of my own age group I suppose. And that’s what I did and then when I’d chosen the cloth I had to draw it, and then show the whole thing at some stage, first of all to the sales manager and then to Al Radley or to his daughter or his wife or his, you know, he had another person who worked alongside, Caroline, who was design director of Radley. And they had to give ultimate approval.

This is at the drawing stage?

Yeah. Then you were left very, very much on your own. There was, you know, a deadline way, way, way in the future, but I never, I don’t remember thinking oh, this is really cushy, this is you know, easy peasy, I can do this falling off a log. I remember being terrified at the beginning and actually thinking you know, really somebody’s going to find me out, somebody’s going to say, you know, made a huge mistake, you’re a charlatan, leave immediately. And I sort of had that feeling for quite [laughing] a long time. But then you know, gradually people started to like what I did there, I think and then it had a bit of success commercially-wise and so gradually you know, after the second or the third collection I sort of got into the swing of it I think. And plus, you know, don’t forget that Betty Jackson Page236 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) you know, my whole life, you know I was in with this crowd that was very much to do with the right group and going to listen to music and we knew, we were of the time I think, really, so my tribe if you like, were very much aware of what was going on and what was right and what was the right direction and you know, and all of that. There was a stimulus around me, I think. I was part of that, that I could bring you know, to the range, I suppose.

Did you show your designs to any of your friends?

They, well I don’t, I can’t remember inviting somebody in to say come and look at mine, but I mean we showed the collection commercially in fabric, in fairs, you know it was shown in Paris, it was shown – don’t know whether we did show in London, I don’t think, we weren’t part of the same group as Wendy because we were considered a bigger company and much more a rag trade company, that Wendy’s group, the London Designer Collection was very much you know, designer led companies and so we were considered not right for that. So she was showing alongside people like Janice Wainwright and - I don’t know whether Jasper was part of that, don’t think he was, I think he was too young - but Roland Klein and Caroline Charles and all of those sort of people were individual designer companies really, and we were considered as a bit of a bigger thing, really, so not allowed in.

Can you remember your first collection, what it consisted of?

I remember the print, I remember it was very murky and very sort of dark and very, it was almost like a painting that had been rubbed out. I remember the print very much, I remember we put it on spun silk and we put it on chiffon and that’s something that I still do today. And I remember, I remember bits of all the collections. I remember doing leather and I remember doing, you know, rather beautiful cloth, there was, I mean it was before we used to go to Italy. I mean most of the cloths we used to get were British made, sometimes French, Garigue we used to use which was sort of you know, couture tweeds and things, things that you could get woven with your own colours. But the Yorkshire wool industry was still in full throttle, so we used to go to Huddersfield and get fabrics from mills up in Yorkshire and silk from Macclesfield and you know, printing done in England. And it was very much a sort of British based thing, really. The jersey used to Betty Jackson Page237 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side A (part 23) come in from France, Hurel jersey, because that’s what people used to wear, you know like Jean Muir draped dresses, I suppose. That was the look – and Janice Wainwright of course, she made her name in jersey dressing. But it was all very much you know, that sort of thing really.

Did you yourself go up to Huddersfield and so forth?

No, people used to come to me. No I didn’t get that sort of freedom really. And I think because we probably used to sell quite a lot, I mean I’ve no idea about the quantities but we probably used to sell quite a lot, so there were a lot of agents who knew – I mean Radley was a big company in the High Street and people did know of Quorum of course, so it had a bit of a reputation you know, we’re not talking, we didn’t, I don’t remember ever wanting something that I couldn’t have, or trying to get somebody to come and show me the range and they wouldn’t do. They were all quite eager to do so, so it must have been fairly successful. And because they worked on all these different levels, the High Street and then there was Cooper’s that was the casual sportswear, we had lots of people coming in.

[End of Tape 12 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 238 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24)

Tape 12 Side B [part 24]

You mentioned a dark murky print that you used, can you remember what sort of a print and what colours and so on?

It was like I said, a painting that you’d left out in the rain and sort of spludged together. My whole thing, I think my philosophy at the time was the breaking down of barriers. I wanted people to wear what they wore to any occasion. There was you know very much, I was sort of anti the people who did ball gowns really, I wasn’t interested in doing that sort of thing at all. My idea at the time was that you just should be able to change your shoes and your earrings and go off to a party in what you were wearing. So what I was doing at the time was trying to break down workwear, daywear and evening wear, you know and wear jersey dresses that maybe you’d kept as the little black dress specially for an evening occasion, I thought you could sling a belt round and wear it to the office or for daywear and put a wool coat over it and it became something different. And that was really what I was trying to say for quite a long time at Quorum. So they had fabrics that they used all the time like chiffons and silk crepe de Chine and I was sort of trying to take them down, rather than you know, take the glamour out of them rather than, you know, make them much more, this is just a shirt, the fact that it’s a silk shirt is irrelevant, it’s just a lovely shaped shirt that might wear with your jeans, or you might wear with… And that sort of idea, incredible as it seems now, was actually quite new at that time, so you know there was divisions. You know you got dressed for work and you got dressed for the day, and it was sort of before weekend wear had even come into existence at all, really. And you got dressed to go out in the evening. And this was something that I really tried hard to say as a modern woman, who works and then maybe has to go on, you have no time to do this thing, you have no time and you don’t need to afford this thing. And that was my philosophy at the time.

How far do you think you were trying to actually change the way people lived or fitting, in other words, fitting the living to the clothes or fitting the clothes to the living?

Oh I think I was very much aware of how people were living and I was trying to solve the problem that I had. You know, that I was virtually allowed to wear what I wanted and Betty Jackson Page 239 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) never had been restricted at all, but nevertheless you know, there were certain situations that arose that either I had to do something that hadn’t been flagged up maybe the day before or the morning of, that I was expected to go to or you know, or something turned up or somebody rang and said, hey, why don’t we go and do this and without a thought you would go in the clothes that you were wearing. This other designer, Rose, who I talked of before, she always came to the studio with a duffle bag and she always had high heeled shoes and jewellery in her bag, in case she went out dancing, you know, or she went out and didn’t go home, or whatever, you know. And it sort of was, it was a bit of a joke really, but there was this feeling amongst our group that it was a bit naff to get dressed up for something. You know, that was a - and it sounds, you know, nothing now, but it was quite a thing then. And this was what I was trying to say. So you know, all of the beautiful jersey, the Hurel jersey that we got, I sort of made into tee shirts or I made into wrap dresses that you know, you could wear your suede knee high boots or you know, and not feel too exposed or too ridiculous or that office, work, day situation. And that’s what I was trying to do.

And what was the reaction to that?

I think everybody thought it was great. Some people liked it, some people didn’t. I mean as I say, I wasn’t, in the early years I wasn’t really involved in the commercial aspect. I got much more involved. I got to see the whole lot, but they kept you very much in a box, you know. In fact I became more involved because I actually went and said I’m gonna die if you don’t tell me, you know. Stop treating me like a complete idiot, but I have to know if something has been successful. [laughs] I think actually, the whole point about it was, keep you in the dark in case you asked for a pay rise, actually. But definitely, definitely, you know, designers were meant to design and then another team, the range was removed from your room and it was you know, then sold by the sales people and put in a showroom and you know, and clients used to come and sit and look and models used to walk around in it. But you were very definitely not part of that, very definitely excluded. They were rather amazed if you went in, you know. That was quite odd, because of course coming from Wendy I’d been involved in the whole caboodle really, and typed the invoice and put the cheque in the bank, you know what I mean? So to be denied access all areas was quite hard, except that you know, I was too frightened getting to grips with what I had to do Betty Jackson Page 240 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) really, in the beginning stages. But as I got confident and as they got confident with me, I think well, the situation changed.

When you say kept in the dark about the success of something, are you talking about the volume of sales?

Mm, mm, mm. And then, you know, I used to, I mean they’d just give you snippets. I used to meet the press and Lynne Cardy , this person, would take them through the range and I’d be there and she would know more than me and say, well this is the best seller of the season or you know, we’ve had huge success with this or whatever, so you know, it was only gradually that I got to know about the commercial success, or failure of something.

Did you actually have a show?

Not until much later. You know, this is really blurred and it’s really stupid, but I do remember, I remember Ossie having, I remember being at an Ossie Clark show, at one of his last ones somewhere over by Euston Station, in Bloomsbury and it was in a theatre situation and I was there and I’d been there for a while. What happened also was that I also started to work on the Cooper’s collection as well, because there were things within my range that they wanted to… and he, Ossie had this show and I remember people coming saying to me, it’s time we saw your things up there, you should do, they should give you part of this, they should do part of it. And d’you know what, I can’t remember whether I ever had a joint – I don’t think I ever had a joint one with him. If we did, I was… because I remember one of the first shows, it was just in the showroom and they had to do it three times because there were so many people wanted to come. And then I think the season afterwards they decided that you know, I could do it myself and there was one at, up in Camden at Dingwalls nightclub. So I have a vague recollection that we did one together and Ossie was the finale and I was just the warm-up act, you know. But I do remember thinking, yes it would be great to do this sort of thing, yes it would be, this would be a very good way of showing things. But having said that, I was rather cushioned because you know, there were always loads of models. There was a house model on hand at all times, so I never was in the situation as we were with Wendy that there was nobody Betty Jackson Page 241 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) to try the things on or you never saw things in that situation, you know, there was a massive great showroom that people were encouraged to come to and sit and look at the range – any time during the year. And there’d always be at least two or three girls there to try things on for you. So I was never starved of, you know they were always nice models, they were always you know, good girls too and I was never, so I was never starved of that thing about seeing your things in motion or seeing your things being shown. But it’s odd, I can only remember later Quorum shows, I can only remember shows that when we took another designer, Terence Nolder and there was another knitwear designer and Celia was there and we had group shows, but as the senior designer I always got the end slot, even though this other guy, Terence Nolder was there to do the evening wear – he only did evening wear, he didn’t really do – so I suppose, I suppose I became the senior designer because I was there the longest.

So although you had the idea of merging day and evening wear, the concept of separate evening wear persisted?

Of course, and it still does.

And, can you remember anything, I mean can you remember other specific things that were in your first collection?

No, I can only remember this ghastly print and I can’t remember anything other than that. And then I remember – it must have been a winter collection when I joined – because I remember then the summer collection was to do with cotton anoraks and shorts and much more daywear; white and green and quite a of colour. I always used to use quite a lot of colour. I don’t know whether it was any good or not, but there was quite a lot of colour. Lilac leather. Lilac leather trousers – that’s shaming isn’t it, but they really did happen. And I always remember that touch - well touch has always been important - but touch was very, very important to me so there were lots of angora jerseys and you know, soft wools and beautiful crepe de Chines, you know. But I didn’t have to think about the price of them, I just thought about you know, putting them together.

So how did, or how do you think about a collection – starting out, blank page… Betty Jackson Page 242 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24)

It’s awful. [laughs] Well, now we’re much more, we’re much better at the beginning, but, I mean so now we start with colour and fabric. I mean I think I did start with fabric in those days, but I don’t think, I think I was not so precise about putting things together. And I always had in the back of mind even before it was drawn, the sort of feeling or… But the Quorum collections were really very much to do with what I, were very personal I think, to me and much more to do with what I wanted to wear or I thought people of my generation wanted to wear. I think I was brought in because I was part of that crowd that knew, you know. And this was a sort of niche in the market that they filled. There used to be, you know companies like Viyella, I remember one collection was entirely to do with Viyella. In fact once I got a Viyella award, for anyway, for designing in Viyella. And that was, I mean it was a wonderful fabric. I mean it was a sort of, but it had only been used for sort of rather fusty men’s shirts, so you know, I put, referring to the room we are sitting in now, there’s actually you know, stuff from, I went on to use Viyella in my own collection, but we definitely used it with Quorum and you know there was a collaboration because of putting prints on that had never been, you know, it was a very classic fabric and there was something rather wonderful about taking classic fabrics and putting them in another context, making you look again at what the fabric usage was. So that all happened at Quorum, I think.

We’re surrounded by photographs of different designs – if you want to pick up any one of them and just use it as a sort of…

But these are mine, these were after Quorum, so this was very much when we started our own company. But what I’m saying is, it was a look that I was already involved in. And then of course we were asked to do, I was asked to dress Joanna Lumley when she was Purdey, so we did that. For the television series The Avengers. And that was also illustrating the point, because she, it was a very active role; she used to have to climb walls or do the splits or do some sort of gymnastics or lie across the bonnet of a car or something. And so it was all to do with jersey tunics and leggings and you know, quite short things that if you wore them short you’d wear thick tights and boots with them you know, so hence you wouldn’t ever do that mini skirt thing, but you’d wear a mini skirt in a different sort of way, in that cover up way. And it was layering and it was – but then I Betty Jackson Page 243 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) remember there was one dress we did in black jersey with pink, almost like if you can imagine footless tights, but they were sort of leggings, you know, things that you pulled on under these sort of tabard dresses that we did, that I did anyway at the time, and she wore this one in a series and the Daily Mail ran a thing on it saying that this will be the most sought after, every woman will want this dress and you know, when they’ve seen this thing. And they sold loads of them, the switchboard was completely jammed after Joanna had been on the television climbing a wall or leaping up a high building in this thing. And they just sold loads of them, you know, it was bizarre. But that was to do with using quite a posh fabric and putting it in a completely different context. That bit wasn’t reported, but I knew in my heart that I had achieved, regardless of whether anybody said it, but this was a fabric that had been used for really posh frocks up until that point and I’d done a knee- length tunic that was split to the thigh, with virtually a pair of long johns underneath it, in it. I mean Joanna was absolutely, still is, absolutely gorgeous and so you know, I had a perfect body to put it on. And it was a drawstring waist and you know, but it was a slim thing that was, you could move it through day to evening without any problem and I thought that that was actually quite good when that happened.

Can you remember how the idea for it came to you?

No, it was just a question of I always chose what I liked and I thought I would like to wear this fabric, but what I don’t want is a posh frock, I want something much more laid back. So I think it was, a lot of it was to do with personal – it’s less to do with that now I think – but a lot of it at that time was personal taste. I think that that’s the same with any new designer and I think it’s important as a new designer, you know, you mustn’t do anything to please anybody else, you must please yourself first and foremost, because that’s how you establish your personality and your look on something. You interpret it like nobody else can and it’s very, it’s what happens with most young designers, most new designers. You do what you like, what you want.

And how did Joanna Lumley react to this?

She was great, I mean she came in lots of times and it was quite funny because I used to have to meet her in East Castle Street and, with her wardrobe woman, and we, you know Betty Jackson Page 244 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) she was a huge star and very beautiful and I just remember that the whole of the accounts department used to find an excuse to come and ask me to sign a petty cash slip or something whenever I was involved with her. But she was absolutely gorgeous, as she still is, and just came in, tried the clothes on, was always completely professional, you know, went off and wore them, just wore them, it was great.

And what was she like as a person?

She was absolutely lovely. I mean she was, I didn’t know, we didn’t have any sort of personal relationship, but actually the funny thing is of course that then, much later on, when I was involved in the first pilot issue of Absolutely Fabulous, the television thing, she of course was given the role of Patsy and we met up again and it was sort of you know, fifteen years later and we sort of laughed about it and it was great. It was just funny, it felt like we came full circle – she’s a very nice, she’s a very nice woman.

So you dressed Patsy as well?

I did. I do, still. There was a Christmas special, but anyway, yes. It still goes on, this… they’ve always said it’s the last one, but it still does go on.

And when you, you say you start with fabric, how do you conceive of a collection?

You don’t conceive a fabric, you look. You look and look and look and look and look. And you choose things that you like. It’s, there’s sort of no mystery but in the beginning you have to look a lot I think, you have to look a lot. And then you, I’ve always loved the bit about choosing fabrics and putting things together and even, I mean that goes back to what I’d said about college and finding textures and thinking this would look great if you had something very raw and rough next to it, or this would look great if you had something very shiny next to it or you know and then it sets you off on a road and you, you know, you follow your instincts and then sometimes something surprising happens and that’s even better. You have to be really open, you must not close any doors at that period, you know, you’ve got to just… I mean I know lots of people say oh, but d’you decide what you want first and you know, it’s foolish to do that, because you might see something that you Betty Jackson Page 245 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) haven’t even dreamed of or, you know, so you have to be absolutely open at that stage. It’s later that you have to sort of channel it into doing what you want it to do rather than leave all these doors open for other things to happen. You have to eventually make decisions about things, but certainly not at that stage. So you look and look and look and look and see millions of different bits of fabric and it’s really by, you know, what strikes are called or what you know, you have a physical reaction to, really. And then an elimination process. What d’you love most, what makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. It’s a passion that you have to have at that moment. If you don’t get the passion you don’t love it enough.

And you’ve talked about adapting things like jersey for different purposes – what other fabrics have you used in that way, for things that they weren’t necessarily…

Furnishing fabrics, I think probably. And interlining fabrics, lining fabrics.

To do what with?

To do outer wear or you know, what would normally be considered as well, what I would say is normal clothing, everyday, everyday wear. I’ve never, I don’t think, I hope I’ve never had a sort of, barrier instincts, I mean I’ve always wanted to break down barriers in whatever aspect one is talking about and I think it’s the same with fabric, I’ve never understood you can’t – I mean there’s certain properties of fabric, you know if you’re gonna make a coat out of something you can’t put your arms down or you can’t you know, run for the bus or hail a taxi or you know, get on an aeroplane in, then, but underlying all of this has always been softness and touch and you know, the delight of, it’s a sensual delight really and it’s a pleasure. It’s a pleasuring of the senses that has always been. So you look first and then you touch. And the touch must always raise your level of expectation and not disappoint. So if you see something that’s lovely and you want to – a bit like a sculpture really – you always want to touch. I’ve never understood this, it always says, you know, ‘Please do not touch’ or ‘Keep off the grass’ or whatever that is. You know, sculptures are meant to be touched and it’s the same with cloth. Cloth is meant to be worn, therefore you are in constant contact with it. And you touch other people and you come into contact with other human beings and therefore it is a very tactile thing, so touch Betty Jackson Page 246 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24) is really important. But I don’t care whether it’s meant for lining or interfacing or anything like that, if the touch does what I want it to do then that’s fine.

And from your knowledge of the world of fashion and other designers, how typical is your approach?

Oh I think everybody works more or less in the same way.

Starting with fabric and touch?

I think so. I think so. There’s one or two – I mean I do know that, because my seamstress used to work, used to be Sheridan Barnett’s seamstress and she said he used to go off for three weeks and then come back with a whole folder of drawings and a collection used to be drawn up before he’d even seen a fabric, he used to imagine the fabric. And it used to be done and dusted and then, it used to be then him instructing the pattern cutter, looking at the toiles, adjusting the toiles. But the whole thing was drawn up before he even started toile-ing. I don’t work like that at all, I’ve never worked like that. I design as we go along, you know, start off with an idea, start off with several ideas obviously, but then I like the feeling that it develops. I mean it’s a bit like that closing the door, again. I like that one leaves oneself open for accidents to happen because sometimes they can be fantastic. And often you know, what you draw is either better or more disappointing than when you get it in three-dimensional form. And then you add on the excitement of doing it in the right cloth, because that’s the bit that’s only in your head, nobody else has that vision. You’ve imagined that, that personal to you when you’ve done the toile, when you’ve done the shape of the garment. Only you know how you imagine it to be in the cloth, because that’s what you’ve done the toile for. But the pattern cutter hasn’t done it for that and the seamstress hasn’t sewn the toile for that, there’s only, that’s your secret really, it’s a specialness that the designer has. So then if it, if it’s better than you thought, that’s pretty good.

And how is it decided how big a collection will be or – you said something about forty pieces.

Betty Jackson Page 247 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24)

Oh well only now because, you know now when we’re asked to do things for other people, you know, and you go into contracts and goodness knows what, the size of the collection matters, so some people might only you know, want a capsule collection or you know, fifteen pieces that would just give a direction and other people want a much bigger collection of forty… and now of course if you work with any High Street people, they want you know, new things all the time and it has to be in store every four weeks, so you’ve to sort of reinvent you know, thirty pieces is tiny, you know the range will probably consist of four times that. Because of the nature of the business now, because you need change, you need new things going in all the time and you need to re-merchandise the look of a collection many more times within a season than you used to have to do. You used to put spring in and spring finished you know, and it was the sales and then winter went in. And now you have crews, you have people who have people who go – and it’s to do with people’s lifestyles too, which is changing, people go away for winter holidays, people go away ski-ing in February, people, or they go to the sun or, there’s a high summer thing, which is much more casual and people require clothes on a much more regular basis, really.

So if there are going to be new clothes coming in every four weeks, will they all have been designed from the beginning?

Yeah, usually. Sometimes it’s a question of you know, slightly changing the silhouette and doing them in different fabrics. It’s a very simple thing when you’ve got to grips with it.

And how is it decided – and this tape has nearly ended – you know, how many trousers, how many jumpers, how many shirts, how many this, how many that?

It’s a mystery isn’t it, really? I mean at Quorum it used to be decided for us by the sales and merchandising team, so they used to come in and look and then say, what we need here, what we’re missing in this group is, this piece, or what we’re missing in this group is, and then they used to you know, juggle about, or we used to have to do things that we’d done in one fabric in another fabric to carry it through. That’s a skill that you need and certainly not necessarily the designer’s skill. Betty Jackson Page 248 C1046/10 Tape 12 Side B (part 24)

[End of Tape 12 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 249 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25)

Tape 13 Side A [part 25]

It’s Friday the twenty-fifth of February 2005. Eva Simmons interviewing Betty Jackson and we’re starting tape thirteen. And Betty, perhaps we could begin, you’ve just done a collection and tell us how it went.

Well, yeah we just showed the Winter 2005 show last Tuesday. Yeah, and it was a good reaction really. We had, it was a very nice show, it was a lovely show actually, lots of colour and it all looked brilliant, we had a very good attendance. But the best thing was that we got very, very good reviews after it, which was nice, because you never really know how the press are going to react and we got sort of blanket coverage which was, and great pics and everybody was very excited. And the nicest thing about that is it’s great for, you know, everybody works so hard on this show and it is a tricky one to do, winter, because there’s less time to do it because October to February is less time than February to October, so it’s always a bit stressful to do a winter collection because everything’s always late. And plus we were using a new team of stylists, plus hair and make-up for the show, so it was all sort of a bit of a more of a leap in the dark than it normally is, but anyway. So it’s nice for everybody else as well, you know, that everybody’s who’s worked on it to see such a good reaction, ‘cos normally you know, you get sort of a bit of a pic and you know, a round-up or something, but this time we really got fantastic coverage.

Why a new team of stylists?

Well, because it’s nice to change. And we had, I had seen this particular person’s work and I liked what she did and so we asked her if she would like to help us on the show and she did.

Who is she?

She’s called Lucy Ewing and she’s the fashion editor of Style magazine, the Sunday magazine that accompanies The Sunday Times. And she happens to be a very, very nice person, which is also important I think, because life’s too short to work with idiots any more, so I won’t do that now. And so, and she was really very good and the atmosphere Betty Jackson Page 250 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) was fantastic, which is always important as well, because you’ve a lot to do in a very short space of time, so if you’ve got people who are panicking and shouting all over the place, it’s absolutely no good at all. But she was, she was really very calm and controlled and did a very good job, I think.

And how does her work, stylist work, fit in with yours?

Well roughly, well what happens with us is, I mean we obviously finish the collection – and this is the first time we’ve worked with Lucy so she wasn’t involved beforehand, but sometimes with other stylists we’ve worked with, they will actually be in collaboration throughout the season, so when, you know, there will be a moment where you show the fabrics and you talk about shapes. They’re aware of the collection. But this one was actually organised quite late and so she had no knowledge of what it was going to be like, so literally she came in, couple of weeks before, we talked her through the collection, which was sort of already done, with you know, shoes and accessories and everything really, and then she sort of talked about what she thought were the strengths and what were relevant and exciting press-wise, really. So then, so from the whole collection she sort of chose I suppose what she thought was the way to focus. And given the fact that we had talked, we talked to her also about where the whole thing had come from and our initial influences and things that had excited us and stimulated us when we started. So, and she thought, and she was very excited too I think, really, so it was nice, worked very well.

But in what sense is she a stylist – I mean what does she actually style?

She comes in and we say okay, forty-five outfits and so she then puts forty-five, pulls forty-five outfits off the rail. She then says this is the dress that you should start with, because it’s fantastic. Or, you know, you say – I mean I actually did say this is my favourite dress in the whole collection, so she said, well that’s the one we start with then. So that was easy. Normally it’s a bit of a thing, oh my gosh, the opening outfit and then you get in a panic about it and then you think, well maybe nobody’s looking at the opening outfit anyway, maybe it’s outfit number two that’s the most important and you know, and anyway. And from that it sort of flows and because you know, she then draws on her international experience really, she sits through many shows herself, she knows what’s Betty Jackson Page 251 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) going to work and what’s – but also with a view to interpreting what we want to say. So she’s a sort of facilitator really as well. And she brings, I mean she brought you know, a different way of looking at things which was exciting for us, because if you’ve worked with something for three months you’re often a bit blinkered to the rest of it. And so she sort of made us look at it differently, which was good.

Different in what way?

Well, only inasmuch as we had thought about the fabrics and the way they went together and we’d actually designed it in a way that it did fit together in a certain sort of sense and somebody who comes in from outside maybe changes that, the way you put things together. Or, in Lucy’s case as well, what we found was that – you know, it’s always difficult to explain to somebody when you’re doing a new collection a new proportion [phone ringing] or a new…

Brief break to disconnect the telephone, we’ll resume.

Sorry, I forgot.

About the stylist.

Yes. So she would, often if you’re doing new proportion or a slightly new length or you know, often you’re a bit nervous, it’s sort of like showing anything to anybody, you think well maybe if it’s not right they’re going to think I’m completely foolish. But in fact, when we talked about the proportion and the length and the silhouette, she thought it was quite exciting, so then she reinforced what we say, you know, she takes your initial tentative thoughts, I think and actually you know, makes them stronger. So that was good.

But she comes in just two weeks before the show?

Yeah, she only came, she came in and she spent about an hour and a half with us and went through and we talked about colours and fabrics and she saw what we had finished and then we literally had a day together when we try everything on and you know, some things Betty Jackson Page 252 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) look good and some things look not so good and it emerges, it just comes out of it, it’s great.

And how much would you be prepared to change, or how much have you changed for collections in the past, according to the stylist’s say-so?

Oh sometimes, I mean it’s good, it’s good to have a discussion about things. I mean you don’t employ somebody who’s just going to agree with everything you say, that would be stupid. But, and often it’s just a case of, oh well we need a little bit of reinforcement here or we need to repeat something that we’ve maybe made in green and we need to make it in yellow, because that’s what we need, but apart from that we don’t redesign or anything, the collection stays as it is.

But things like hem lengths or…?

No, very rarely. Very rarely. I mean it’s only a fit question on the girls, who are thinner than thin. [laughing] You forget how, alien beings these girls are. But no, no, no, we don’t really you know, lengths are lengths and if we’ve said short that’s what we’re gonna go with and we certainly don’t change the whole thing.

What’s the most radical change you’ve ever had to make?

Er…

Or decided to make?

I can’t think that there’s, you know we really do go with what we’ve done. I can’t think… I don’t, the show for me is not… I hate the sensation, aspect, which really I shoot myself in the foot because of course a show has to be not anything to do with real life, but it’s always been a philosophy that actually these are clothes that must be worn and these are clothes for lots of different women and yes, we may show them in an extreme way, but nevertheless, we don’t ever do things that are sensational for sensation’s sake, because I couldn’t ever do that. So really there’s very, it’s just a question of you know, lovely Betty Jackson Page 253 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) clothes on gorgeous girls really and that’s what we do. And I think that’s fine, because I would feel bit of a fraud if I did anything else, if I did – I’m not suggesting that they’re not beautifully cut and they’re not… because they are, they were, they looked great, I think. But I don’t think, we don’t do things just for the show, really.

So when did you start thinking about this collection?

Oh. Straight after the last one. When was that? September.

And how did you conceive it, can you talk us through?

Yeah, it’s always the same thing; you start with colour and fabric and then it’s shape and I think the shape sort of is always there because what it is, it’s a sort of development of the last one and it’s maybe something that you’ve started off a shape that you’ve started off and maybe you haven’t done quite as well as you thought you might, or, on the other hand, something has been really quite successful and you want to offer it again, but in a different guise or you want to move it on slightly. So that’s really what we do, how we… so the shape is sort of in your head really, somehow, I can’t explain that. And comes when you force yourself to think about it, really. We always know what fabrics we’re using before you start on a silhouette because, well, a simple explanation if you cut a circular skirt in tweed fabric or you cut it in silk georgette, the effect will be completely different, so you have to know whether you want the effect that happens in a circular skirt in tweed, or the effect that a circular skirt cut in silk georgette would be. And so the fabric dictates, inspires, stimulates. And it does, I mean it really, it’s very exciting. We’re going off to Paris next week to look at all the new ones. We’ve started to look, we’ve started to look at new fabrics now and it’s great, I love this bit.

What are the fabrics like now that are around, compared with say the fabrics that you were talking about last time we met, in the seventies?

Oh! Blimey, well, completely different. There’s much more choice, there’s much more available, there’s much more, you know, I mean the biggest thing I think that’s been invented is stretch and all of the performance fabrics really have had a huge effect on Betty Jackson Page 254 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) ready-to-wear. You know, tweeds aren’t heavy. I mean even sheepskins, they’re as light as a feather you know, because everybody… and fabrics have responded to the needs of the times, which is great. I mean, you know you can get, you know virgin wool that’s just so light and beautiful and then, as well as that, it doesn’t crease because what they’ve done to it. Well, it’s astounding really. And you know, the things that you can do and the things that, I mean and everything, most things you can put in a washing machine now. It’s really fantastic, what’s happened to fabrics. They’ve really led innovation, I think.

And can you say something about the shapes that were in your head for this collection?

The one that we’ve just shown?

Yes.

Well, they’re a little bit more voluminous I think, than… neat at the top and then a sort of triangle I suppose, a trapeze shape in lots of ways. So that you’re very sort of small- shouldered and then easy round the knees I think. And the waist is a sort of movable feast, it’s sort of dropped or it’s higher, but never actually on the waist.

And whose decision is it that this should be the way of next season?

As far as my collection is concerned, it’s mine. [laughs] It’s my decision, I have total autonomy. [laughs] I’m in control.

Of course, but there are trends, aren’t there?

Well yeah, there are trends. It’s really because designers are not in a box, you know, everybody lives in the real world and everybody sees what’s going on, we’re all subject to the same stimulation, we all see the same films, plays, theatre, we all listen to the same music. You know, it’s global now, I mean information is at the touch of a button now, so there isn’t anybody who’s working in a sort of aesthetic vacuum, it’s not possible. So there is a sort of feeling, you know, there’s a feeling of what a modern woman wants to wear and how lifestyle has changed and designers merely respond to that, I think. And Betty Jackson Page 255 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) move it on and make the whole thing slightly more exciting. But I think what maybe is a misconception – I mean sometimes you know, colours, you’ll see press reports and you’ll think, oh my goodness, everybody’s done yellow, for example, or everybody’s done… Well in fact, you know, some of the collections that are featured maybe have you know, a pair of yellow gloves or one pair of yellow shoes, but it’s somebody else’s interpretation that the whole world is going to be wearing yellow, because that’s not going to be the case. So I think what you’re talking about is a journalist’s ideal of interpreting what has been happening. I think it’s not, it’s because there’s so much choice now, I think it’s not, almost not relevant. I think the most fantastic thing is that there is choice, the most fantastic thing is that if you like something that Helmut Lang does, then the likelihood is that you’re not going to love what Alberto Ferretti does, but both looks are valid. If you like what Paul Smith does, you may be not gonna like what Jil Sander does or you know – I mean they’re not opposing enough, I can’t think of anybody who’s opposing now. But, or you know, Yohji Yamamoto and Frost French. They’re opposites, but both are relevant because both provide a need now, you know, both are responding to a certain market at the moment now, here present, modern, today, now. Or actually, as far as we’re concerned next season.

I mean I was reading just now for example, long shorts in your collection and the comment was, these are in a lot of places. So how does it happen that they appear simultaneously in different collections?

[laughs] I’ve no idea because we don’t ring others up and say, ‘I’m going to do a pair of shorts, you do one two and then we’ll get mentioned’. It doesn’t happen, I mean that must just be a feeling you know, as I said, we are all responding to the same stimuli, I think.

And what are the stimuli now?

Oh well, it’ll change. It still remains, I mean for us it still remains film, art, music, you know. So I’ll go and see as much as I can over the next three or four weeks and travel a bit as well and we’ll get our references sorted out and find something that’s completely exciting and, that we’ve become passionate about and it’ll kick off from there.

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So films from now, from the past?

Both. Both. We’re looking at a lot of new animated films, animation is fantastically modern and the way it’s interpreted I think is, so we’re looking at that. And music and you know, it’s all sort of very eclectic and global really. And then we’ll – it’s an odd thing really, you just have to sort of remain open I think. I mean I think, you know it’s not something that you switch off and it’s really silly, it can be anything that sparks you off. I mean, you know, colour or, you can be sitting in a pub or walking in the street or buying vegetables or you know, going to a party. I don’t know where it comes from really, but you know something actually can hit you and you think, gosh that’s really lovely.

Have you always worked in that way?

Yeah. It’s a little bit haphazard, it doesn’t sound very much control there, does it? But it is, it’s a good – you know, and also you have to be excited about it, you have to be passionate and so you know, you have to go into something loving it more than anything else in order to then do all the work and in order to then get your point of view across, really. You have to be fairly sure of it and there does come a time where you’re really not. [laughs] But you have to be fairly sure at the beginning and excited, and love it at the beginning. Otherwise you know, by the time you’ve explained it to the fifteenth person, you just think oh no, that looks like shit actually, sorry, made a mistake. But that hasn’t happened yet, so.

So when does the time come when you don’t feel like that?

I’m sorry…

You said just now, well there comes a time when you’re not, when you don’t feel you know, this enthusiasm.

Well I think if you get it wrong right at the beginning I think that that’s what does happen. I think you’ve got to be really loving it, it’s not enough that you sort of think it’s quite nice. We went this morning to a place where sometimes we get stimulation, sometimes Betty Jackson Page 257 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25) we don’t and there was none this morning. And nobody was doing anything new or remotely, you know, and it was sort of odd really. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. But the thing is, at the moment, everything’s in your head, you know and a film you’ve seen or an exhibition you’ve seen or, I mean have you been to the Tate – oh! I mean the Turners and the Whistlers – oh my goodness, it’s on a the Tate Britain at the moment and it’s just sensational. So you know, all of that sort of misty colour, quite nice isn’t it, really? And that – I don’t know whether that’ll happen – but at the moment I think that that’s rather beautiful you know, and I think, and I don’t think sharp edges and I don’t think things that are clearly defined. But then, you know, the animation films that we’re looking at are completely precise, so then how d’you make those two work together, because both of them are looking at – you know, one’s an old thing but with a new interpretation on how everybody worked together or interpreted the same thing, really. And the other thing is completely new and modern and never been seen before, so it’s an exciting thing to actually make that – and how d’you make a frock out of all that, you know. Silly really, but it is how you know, something kicks off in your head.

So d’you think exhibitions like the Tate exhibition influence you know, do they have a wider influence or is that just the way you work?

I’ve absolutely no idea. I think, I mean one reads, but attendance to places like this have shot up, so one hopes that people are always looking for beautiful things in their life, really. So I’m sure that it has an influence. I mean, you know we are sort of pirates in a way really, the way, we go round and you take things and then reinterpret or use them in a way that you would use them. I mean it’s shocking, but I mean, that’s the way it works really.

And where did you go this morning where you hoped and failed to get this inspiration?

Well we went to Portobello Road, and it was completely grim and snowing and very cold indeed, so maybe that’s what it was [laughing], maybe it was there, we just didn’t see it. But anyway, it doesn’t matter does it?

But how could it give you inspiration? Betty Jackson Page 258 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25)

Oh you see sort of bits and pieces and you see, you know, odd prints and old things and bits of cloth that can inspire you and it’s all just together, you know in one place, so it’s, there’s a sort of ease really. We’ve done this for years really, we always, we go and have a look and you know, see. People made beautiful things in the past and it’s just sort of recycling ideas, really I think. Or reinterpreting them and often, I mean we went, about three years ago we did a winter collection, we did sort of crystal brooches everywhere on sheepskin and that came really from walking through the market and actually somebody had, there was an old brooch on an old bit of fur and – I mean not that I ever use fur, we just do sheep – and it just looked fantastic, this sort of gleaming sparkling brooch on this other texture. And that’s why we did crystal brooches on all the things. It was a while ago now, but you know, it’s a silly thing, but it actually just can make something work.

And this collection that has just been shown, we were talking earlier on about the stylist helping choose the order and so forth, which was the first dress or the first outfit, so how did that work out? What was the first one that she and you chose?

Well, we had started with influences from, looking at films like Rosemary’s Baby with Mia Farrow and she’s really quite, you know she was quite a sort of iconic figure and so we were sort of looking at the way, the proportion and this particular dress we did quite a long time ago, we cut it in loads of different fabrics and we called it the Mia Dress, and Lucy liked it, so that was our opening outfit. You know, to set the, it was actually to set the mood really.

In what fabric?

It was actually in herringbone tweed, because it’s winter, with woolly tights, and it looked great.

And you were saying earlier on that you had a good response to the collection, can you say a little more about that, about the reaction and whose reaction?

Betty Jackson Page 259 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side A (part 25)

Well, journalists and people that you respect and most people have said quite nice things, really. There is an immediate reaction, press-wise to the show, but of course sales will go on now for another month and you know, it’ll all depend on that really, I mean press reaction is all very nice but it doesn’t pay the bills, so really we do have to sell it now, so that’s what’s happening at the minute. But most people, most people are finding nice things there so we’re hoping for a good final figure.

And why long shorts?

And why long shorts? Long shorts is actually to do with, last season, you know it was skirts and boots and skirts became the focal point of the collection I mean, and it went through to summer as well and people wear boots all year round now, and so we wanted to move that on and how to wear, how to move it on past boots. We did do some boots with dresses and skirts still in winter, and so it was just to do with a new proportion of a suit, cut-off trousers, nothing more than that. I mean they’re knee length shorts, but they’re rather gorgeous, they’re, I mean I probably will be having a pair myself. Because you know, it’s something you can wear with thick tights in winter and it looks young and not silly. It’s not at all to do with wearing a mini skirt, but it is, I think it’s a new way of wearing a pair of short pants. You’ve got to think of it like that rather than – shorts sounds a bit scary doesn’t it really?

And where will you wear yours?

Oh, I’ll wear it like, I mean I’m wearing a suit now which is, anyway, I’m wearing a suit now, so I’ll wear mine whenever I want to, really. There’s a very nice jacket that goes with them. A good look.

[End of Tape 13 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 260 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26)

Tape 13 Side B [part 26]

A good look, and I’ll be wearing them.

We’re talking about shorts.

Yeah, yeah, but I think we’ve finished. I think we’ve…

You’ve said all there is to say about shorts?

I think really, yeah. We’ll move on now.

Will there be a lot of long shorts around?

Yes.

Whose idea was it, d’you know?

Whose idea was what?

Originally? I mean to do that. Or was it just spontaneous, simultaneous combustion?

Yeah. Whose idea was it? No idea. It’s just to do with that, you know different proportion, it’s to do with that sort of knee length thing, you know coats over skirts, so coats over things that are not skirts. So it’s a short trouser, it’s an obvious you know, thing and that’s what happens, that’s where it came from. For us anyway, it came from there.

But what I’m trying to, is how it is that people you know, in x collections do something like that simultaneously?

Yeah, you see that I can’t say, that I really don’t know, except, as I’ve said before, that we are all, you know there’s a sort of move you know, through the sixties and seventies and you know, there’s a move to sort of looking back and choosing the things that actually Betty Jackson Page 261 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26) made modern women modern then and there is a sort of liberation feeling and all of that and I suppose it’s sort of revisiting the past, but actually doing it in a new way that’s relevant to 2005.

How are women now, from the fashion point of view, different from what they were five years ago, ten years ago?

I think there’s been a, I think women are very different indeed. When I, you know when I was at college, there were places like Biba on Kensington High Street and you know, I was at college right at the end of the sixties and early seventies and what was happening then was a big revolution as far as women were dressing and suddenly you didn’t have to look like your mum, you know you didn’t have to look, there was suddenly fashion for young people, not children. There was a huge gaping hole you know, when you got to the age of fifteen, sixteen and you moved out of the childrenswear department and you became suddenly young lady, and it was a relic from the fifties and the war and all of that stuff I suppose, but you just looked like your mother, hairstyle and all I think, and groomed yourself for the life ahead. And I think when I was at college, I mean there was definitely a revolution there, I mean in music and the arts – I mean there was Look Back in Anger, John Osborne, there was The Beatles, The Rolling Stones – I mean it was a fantastic period. So I think it was the first time that fashion really was addressing the youth. I mean just as music was for young people and suddenly the theatre was for young people and the film was. I mean what was happening in film was better in Europe than it was in America at that time, but nevertheless there were films that were quite raw and of the day and you know, and it was a very exciting time. So we, I mean at college we used to make pilgrimages to London and come and sort of just be in Biba, you know, just sort of, never ever buy anything. I think I bought one long skirt for three pounds fifty once, which was an absolute fortune in those days, but it was just to be part of it, really. And it was so marginalized and now of course, first of all there’s so much choice. Everybody, it’s role reversal, everybody that I know who’s over fifty wants to look thirty. It’s completely changed. And plus, people are looking after themselves much – I’m not sure, it’s an odd thing, but I think probably diet was better in the forties and fifties than you know, there’s all that sort of fast food and junk food, but now people are really taking care of their bodies and you know, wanting more energy and travelling all over the place and you know, Betty Jackson Page 262 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26) living an outdoor life and it’s, looking after themselves. So women’s role has changed incredibly I think over the last twenty years. She’s become much more empowered, she decides for herself, she’s financially independent often, she’s independent socially for much longer. People are deciding to have permanent partners much later on and you know, and it all started then, I think really. I mean I think it went a bit sort of mad, then. Actually, the funniest thing is, I was actually watching, in my sort of weekend recuperation, I was, you know you just sort of watch nothing at all, you watch sort of blank things and I was actually watching the Biography Channel and it was a biography of Clark Gable and you realise that actually, that the studios, you know protected these celebrities to such an extent, but it’s absolutely, I mean he was married five times; first two wives were older than him and very rich women indeed and he had a child with Loretta Young. And I mean obviously it’s exactly what goes on now, but of course it wasn’t in the newspapers all the time. So, information is, as I said before on the other side of the tape, at a touch of a button. Information is open to all now and that’s changed a lot of things, I think.

So how do all those changes affect you as a designer, I mean the way women are now, and I said five years ago or ten years ago – of course there’s a huge change since the seventies, but now the change is what?

Now it’s a sort of time I think where everybody’s getting used to new technology and everybody’s getting used to being available or being in contact with the world at any given moment. You know, you live a twenty-four hour life now, rather than you know, and work life I think is much more integrated to home life and lifestyle, it’s sort of much more seamless than it was. So I think, I mean I think that happened, I mean when we started the company, I mean the philosophy has always been – although it sounds sort of rather old now – but the philosophy’s always been that you should be able to put something on in the morning and forget about it and it has to then do a lot of different things. So it has to take you into a lot of different areas you might not, because at any given moment during your day you might be doing at least ten different things or ten different things that require of you certain things. And then you know, nobody’s got any time to go home and change and then go out and you know, so things have to be much more flexible and I’ve always been of the opinion that you should just be able to change your earrings practically and go out anywhere where you know, wearing what you put on when you got up that morning. And Betty Jackson Page 263 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26) so I think you, designers have to work harder, obviously, designers have to work much harder. But that’s a good thing. You’re only responding to what’s happening in the world around you.

But is there a difference now from five years ago? In terms of your, because this is a constant in your philosophy, as you’ve said, this idea of going from work to play and on to whatever, so you’ve always had this idea of integrated fashion, but is there a difference – I’m thinking about from year to year, almost.

Well there’s a development I think, there’s a, but I think the radical change really you know, was worldwide web and I think generally, I think women have been getting to the point where they’re emancipated and they’re empowered and that just grows, that’s very exciting, you know, how that happens. And they’re making decisions about looking good for themselves rather than pleasing somebody else and all of that just goes on, I think. I think the radical movement did happen in the seventies, but then it was a while, you know it was all talk and it was, it was only to do with a minority group and it was to do with much younger people, but this sort of independence and this sort of celebrating the time that you are now, really, has come quite recently I think. I think it’s no longer controlled entirely by the youth, whereas it’s sort of directed towards, but actually the real control lies elsewhere and lies with slightly more experienced and – slightly more experienced I think is a key factor, really.

So how did this affect the way you design now, compared with the way you would have designed – are you now designing for an older woman than you would have done before or, you know?

No, we design, I mean, no, I think not. I think you still focus – we don’t, the collection, we put a ‘very useful’ emphasis on this winter collection, you know hence the shorts and the you know, short skirts and the Mia Farrow thing, but it really depends on how you put it together and we’ve always had quite a broad section of ages who come to buy. You know, I mean I think a long time ago I had a stalwart clientele of forty-five plus, even when I was twenty-five, because they were the people who could afford it and they were the people who also wanted to be associated with a youthful designer, so that worked. Betty Jackson Page 264 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26)

Then we do dress twenty year olds as well. Whether or not the collection has grown up with me, I don’t know. I mean in a way that’s why I have more youthful assistants than myself, because obviously we wear things in a different way, but often we choose the same things from the collection, but we just wear them in a different way.

Do all your assistants wear your clothes?

They do, yes, they do. Not all the time, they’ve mixed it with vintage, but they very rarely buy other designers’ clothes, they would always either customise something or, they’re really very inventive, my assistants.

And whose decision is it that they should buy your clothes or use your clothes?

Oh no, they have the choice. They have the choice and they do if they like it, it’s not a uniform, there’s no obligation. [laughs] But it just happens.

We’ve leapt forward, thirty years or something like that, and perhaps we should go back to where we left off. The last session ended with talking about Quorum, but it is also relevant to now because you were talking about the constant change compared with then, you know, having four times as many pieces in a collection, and I just wondered what you thought of that? Whether you think that’s been a good change, bad change, whatever?

I’m sorry, can you just be more specific about what you’re asking?

You were saying in those days, we were talking about how large a collection should be…

Oh right.

…and now it would be about forty pieces or something now, you talked about, and then at the end of the session you talked about the breaking down of seasonal barriers and much more frequent changes in the clothes that are in the shops and so therefore designing much bigger ranges and I, you didn’t express an opinion on that and I wondered whether you had an opinion…? Betty Jackson Page 265 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26)

I am all in favour of choice, but the problem is when it’s wasteful, I have a problem when it’s wasteful. And generally I am horrified about how many clothes [laughing] are produced and the wastage, really. And that’s a difficult one really, because I am in favour of choice and I think you know, as I’ve referred today to it, you know, whatever look you want or whatever look suits you or whatever look turns you on or however you want to say it, it’s important that it’s there and I think that’s what’s great about, I think it gets very difficult when there’s less choice available and you can not find something that expresses your own personality. But I do think there’s a problem when it comes, when there’s wastage. I mean the amount of clothes that must get shipped off to sales and end up in, I don’t know where, it’s extraordinary because when you think, you know, there’s times thousands and thousands of us producing far more clothes than we do, we’re tiny in comparison to other people and I mean, one of the reports refers to, makes the comparison between myself and Paul Smith and our relevant turnovers, I think it quotes ours as being three million and his being two hundred million. Well, the difference in volume is huge, so you know, we’re, and all of these do not end up in people’s wardrobes, you know there is a huge wastage. And that’s the only bit I have a problem with, really. There’s a balance to be reached.

How about from your point of view as the designer having to design so many more things at the beginning of a season than you would have done in the past?

I don’t find that a problem. I think that’s quite exciting and we are usually in a situation where we have to stop, you know. Thank goodness, you know, we’re rarely scrabbling around for ideas to do. There’s usually too many to fit in any one collection and we either leave some aside or say we’re gonna develop that further for next season or a year’s time or whatever, so it will be waiting in the wings. I don’t have a problem, I think also people do require more clothes. You know, gone are the days, even with menswear, you know that you had your work suit and then your weekend clothes. I mean I think I referred ages ago to my mother going to buy her clothes of the season. And her clothes of the season were two Jaeger suits and three or four day dresses and then the rest would be evening wear. And that’s what she bought and that’s what she wore for the season. And the clothes were looked after and made to last and you know, that was life then. It’s different Betty Jackson Page 266 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26) now, just different. People are living at a much faster pace, travelling requiring clothes for different situations and so leisure time is more important, you know, the focus has shifted. There’s many focuses instead of just home life and work.

And what about the problem this raises in relation to excess and over…

Well that’s a tricky one, that’s a tricky one, I think and I’m not sure I’ve resolved that. I think I go blindly on, really, rather than sort of – and I think that the thing is, that openness that one has to start a collection with, or start any new idea, if you were thinking, oh well, goodness I’ve got to cut it down and only have you know, a certain number, what you don’t want at the beginning is restrictions. I mean in your head of course, you have you know, economic guidelines or you have a bit of an idea about, you know how something will work as far as a financial band is concerned, but actually, I think if you started off with restrictions I think it would be terrible.

We ended also, apart from this general discussion, with you at Quorum getting established and becoming, going from being very pensive and apprehensive to being more confident and successful. What dates are we covering?

I was there from seventy-six to - seventy-five maybe – to 1981. It was six years altogether.

And how did you feel about this gathering success?

It was exciting, obviously. It was – I’m not sure one’s ever aware of it really, because you know, all you’re doing is, you know, you’re lucky enough to be doing some of what you want, some of what other people want, but you are mixed up with the whole process of, and I’m not sure, it wasn’t, there wasn’t the same feeling then as there is now about you know, new emerging talent, really. So it was a quiet success, I wouldn’t say [laughs], I wouldn’t say it was, you know, and gradually they built up some sort of following and they sold the things quite well, so there was a sort of quiet press reaction, really. But it was, yeah, it was a good time, I learnt a lot. Well I learnt hugely and I travelled with them, you know I went to the Far East, and became involved in, you know, really saw how the whole thing worked. I didn’t stay in my design studio, I think I learnt about, well first of all I Betty Jackson Page 267 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26) learnt that you have to keep the directors’ wives happy. You know, if you do something that pleases them, then it’s easier from then on, which is quite shocking really, but I discovered that early on, so that if there was always a piece in the collection, or a couple of pieces that they wanted, then you were home and dry, really. And I also learnt the importance of a team and the importance of a team who knew what you were doing, so you know, they were international I suppose, Quorum, in a small way, but they, you know they had agents all over the world, they had sales teams all over the world, they showed in Paris, they showed in America, they showed in… So, all of this was sort of there, set up and it was very interesting to see really, how it didn’t just stop when we’d made something lovely and hundreds on a rail, then there was another, almost creative force that went into overdrive and took the thing on like a relay race, d’you know what I mean?

How did you discover that it was important to please the directors’ wives?

Well, they’d come and look. They’d come and look and I completely ignored this at the beginning, treated it with disdain, but then you know, realised that actually these were the women who were gonna buy the things, you know, it was actually very important to get – I think also, I mean the arrogance of youth, really. You’re really not interested in people that you, you’re only interested in your own peer group or the people that you socialise with and it’s their opinion that matters most and you forget that there are all of these people who will be paying money for your things who don’t know who the hell you are, have absolutely no connection with you and so the thing has to stand up on its own. And if you, you know, it’s a simple thing now, I talk to shopkeepers and their customers to hear how people, even trying a jacket on you know, will either button it or leave it open or they wouldn’t ever look at something for evening if it didn’t have a sleeve in it and you know, they won’t wear something that hasn’t got a back in it, and they won’t… And so it’s important to listen to everybody’s opinion, even if you discard it at the end of the day, it’s very important that you get a broad view.

How did you make the discovery about these wives, did anybody say anything or do anything?

Betty Jackson Page 268 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26)

No, no, it was very clear. You know, things got better if you were nice and you had a conversation with them and you took a bit of time with them and you know, and then presumably they went home and said, ‘Oh that new little designer, she’s nice isn’t she?’ and you know, and then people realised that I had something to say. And also you know, I suppose they got to know me over a number of years and I did have quite a lot of things to say, I had a lot of things to say on lots of things, so it’s also just developing some sort of working relationship I think.

And how did you change your designing…?

Oh I didn’t change, I only explained it. I don’t think I changed. I certainly don’t think I changed, I think it was actually a personality thing and what you did was that you got them on board with you within the process. I certainly didn’t change anything for them.

So what would you say to them to make them like stuff and want to buy…?

Blimey, this is a long time ago and I only remember the, you know, just the general gist that you know, when you’re working for a company that you’re not in control of, which of course coming from Wendy, we’d done whatever we liked, I had never had a board of directors to please before, I didn’t know about pleasing the board of directors. A lot of it was alien territory to me coming from the sort of background I’d come from, whereas I think I’ve explained that there was no hierarchical situation. Well, Al Radley sat in his huge big office at the top of the building, you know, and was quite a remote figure. You were called up, you were summoned to his office, you know. And so, it was the first time I’d had a proper job, for God’s sake, so it was merely getting to grips with the ins and outs of how a company ran. I’m not saying that I became devious or underhand in any way, it was just the thing about if you explained to them, people view, certainly at that time, people view design with doubt and fear, really. New things are fearsome, they’re scary. And if you, even just, look at this beautiful cloth, this is a gorgeous colour, touch it, isn’t it beautiful? And if you explained to them your enthusiasm about it, it broke the ice in lots of ways.

And what was Al Radley like? Betty Jackson Page 269 C1046/10 Tape 13 Side B (part 26)

He was quite a remote, quite a gruff sort of figure, really. Ran a very successful business. I think, I have to say I think he was, you know, I think he did have a vision a long time ago when he took Ossie on, because nobody had ever done that before and I think to back a designer to the extent that he did, I admire that. I think in other areas he was quite difficult and quite, I mean lots of people have different opinions of Radley. He was always perfectly charming to me and I didn’t know him well at all, but we did have a few dinners together and he, I think that he, I don’t know whether he was disappointed eventually or not. I think that he was, there was one time when he must have been the envy of the rag trade in this country, I think he had a business that everybody desired, but, and certainly in the way he employed designers, I think he was very new. But I don’t know whether history will be kind to him or not. Certainly the Ossie Clark exhibition at the V and A, I think it was a sort of halved jury really. Lots of people said wasn’t it great that he allowed Ossie to do all of these things, but other people said he ruined his creativity and you know, tried to make him commercial and goodness knows what. I don’t know, because I wasn’t really, you know I was getting on with my own things and again, I suppose, youthful arrogance, I just didn’t concern myself with what was going on next door. There came a point where I had to let Ossie get on or not get on, but actually I had something to do that I had to concentrate on, so I did that.

What did Al Radley look like in those days?

He was, he always wore camel and brown. He had sort of square glasses, lots of brown hair, quite short, stocky. Always wore nice things, but I’m not sure you would say he was an elegant man. But he obviously did command respect, you know, he moved through his office and I suppose, he was just the boss I suppose, really.

[End of Tape 13 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 270 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27)

Tape 14 Side A [part 27]

Al Radley, yes. And I think he was quite scary, I think he was quite fierce, I think he was… there were several directors and well, I don’t know whether he was a partner at all, but there was the accountant – I’ve forgotten his name, this is terrible now – but he was the sort of the soft, easy one and Al Radley was the sort of hard-edged – and he was called Monty… and I can’t remember his last name, that’s terrible. Anyway, really nice sort of gent and they worked together forever, I think. And he was, I didn’t see him very often, it was a bit of a sort of thing when he visited, really. I mean geographically we were, when I started we were over in Burnsall Street by the Kings Road and Radley’s head office was in East Castle Street, the heart of the rag trade, and he very, very rarely made visits, it was a bit of a royal thing when he swept through the building, really, but left us to do, you know, what we had to do. And then you know, collection time, showing it was all very controlled and you know, various times of year that the collection had to be finished and then it would go to Paris to be shown and it would then get distributed to the various agents. And so he was sort of quite remote really.

Did you like him?

I didn’t dislike him, but there was very much a sort of us and them situation, d’you know what I mean? He didn’t go out of his way to make friends with his staff, but I think that there was a sort of respect, really.

You mentioned in the last session that you were not encouraged to ask many details about the success or otherwise of the collection, for fear you might ask for a pay rise.

[laughs] Yes.

Did that come at any point?

What, the pay rise? [laughs] I think I must have got a pay rise. I wouldn’t have stayed six years I think on the salary that I’d started off on. And because I think my responsibilities increased, I mean it finally, I mean the hazy figure of Ossie got more remote and then Al Betty Jackson Page 271 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27)

Radley’s daughter came in to sort of try and pull things together on the Quorum front and you know, it was a label that meant a stable of designers within and so without Ossie – I mean not that anybody, I mean nobody really cared by the – which is a terrible thing, but nobody really cared about him at the end, nobody really, because he hadn’t produced anything new for quite a long period of time, and that sounds horribly cruel, but you know, fashion was changing and fashion was getting much more to do with Mia Farrow and Joanna Lumley and you know, and all of that sort of street fashion really and punk was happening and you know, it was really, big changes then. And Ossie was not interested at all in that, his time was a different time and his influences were different and so I really think that they thought that you know, Quorum should have a much more modern voice.

What were the actual circumstances of his departure?

D’you know, this is really odd, but I just can’t remember. I remember we were moved, we were moved to East Castle Street and that was a sort of big thing because, terrible thing that Quorum was going to the rag trade area, because it had always been based of course, round the Kings Road and Radnor Walk and… but they had a different set of design studios, not in Radley House, it was actually opposite in a modern block. So we were still separate, but he obviously felt the need to, you know Radley obviously felt the need to get a bit more control of the whole thing. In fact, our specific circumstances weren’t changed at all because we still had individual design rooms and worked as we did, we were just based in central London. And so there was a bit of a hoo-ha about that, but actually it didn’t matter a bit really, I didn’t care about it. And then, so then instead of having a separate showroom which was in Burnsall Street for Quorum, they were all shown in the central showroom which had Quorum, Coopers and Radley in it all together. So, three collections were shown in one and obviously took an economic decision I’m sure, about that. But there was a lot of wastage at Quorum, there was a lot of wastage, really personnel-wise. I mean a lot of people wasted a lot of time, a lot of people wasted a lot of money. You know, it was a relic of something that had been incredibly successful, you know, very quickly. But then to sustain the success is very hard indeed. And I think it sort of became a victim of its own circumstances, you know, the times had moved on, it was no longer the thing where you know, people came and sat and had a cup of tea or a glass of wine in the afternoon and chose a chiffon frock, you know. People had busier lives, you Betty Jackson Page 272 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27) know, they had to do other things and so I think that there was a sort of response to that. And things were moving much quicker on the High Street and places like Miss Selfridge had opened up and you know, and it was big numbers. It was fashion on a large scale really. And there was suddenly a youth, a market that required feeding, I think.

When was the actual move?

Somewhere in the middle of it all. I absolutely, you see I’m absolutely hopeless on dates, but somewhere, I’d probably been there a couple of years, maybe two, three years and then we moved to East Castle Street.

And how did you feel about all this wastage you’ve just described?

Well, I joined something that I was, that I had known was so successful and I had known was so celebrity based and I had, I was you know, still a bit in shock that I was a small part of this, really I think. So I don’t think, I mean looking back, you know you can see why the thing failed, but at the time I don’t think I was judgemental about it at all, I think it was just the situation. Ossie got whatever he wanted and I certainly wasn’t aware of any cash flow situation, I was you know, aware when, much later on when I you know, got to know the sales team and went to visit the exhibitions with them and put clothes together for them and explain the collection to certain key buyers or department stores and I became much more involved in the whole process, that you know, that I became aware of, I mean huge overheads that they had and you know, to maintain this on a global scale as he did. I mean they exported a lot, but it was a costly thing to run, I think.

So how did it actually – were you there when it wound down?

Well Quorum continued and had new designers came in. Ossie, I think finally went his own way, or at at least we were made aware that he wasn’t going to come and do another collection, or he was taking time off, or – I can’t remember how it was put, but you know, as I said, we were really too busy doing our own things, you know choosing fabrics, getting samples out, you know, designing, seeing trims. I mean, generally getting a collection together. So we then, Karen Radley came in to run Quorum, sort of separately I Betty Jackson Page 273 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27) suppose as the managing director and we then employed other designers and I was involved in choosing. What they wanted from Quorum was actually to provide lots of different collections for lots of different situations, so they really wanted to continue with this evening wear thing. They wanted a strong daywear collection, which I was in charge of and then, because I was very keen even then on knitwear, but I’ve never trained as a knitwear designer, but I was aware of the emergence of knit as being really important, that I suggested that we had a knitwear person as well. So there was a sort of stable of two or three other people who came in and worked under the same roof, really.

Can you name some names?

Terence Nolder was the evening wear designer and I got him, he was at Harrow and he did the most spectacular end of year show. I went to see him and thought that he had you know, quite a good take on it really and so brought him in to meet everybody, show his portfolio and employed him. And he was very successful for a few years there and his job was to actually do occasion wear, you know, special stuff. Because also it was the bit that didn’t interest me at all, because as I was saying, I used to go to work in my dungarees and go out, you know, put sparkly earrings on and high heel shoes and that’s what I’d go out to a club in. So I never understood this sort of special dressing sort of thing, because unless it was a vintage ball gown I wouldn’t ever put one on, really. So it was important that we addressed this issue that… and there was another girl who did prints called Sue McCarthy, who was a textile designer that actually – because Quorum was always so strong on prints, it was decided that we should have somebody there doing much newer prints. And she also – I think she was at St Martins, but I can’t quite remember. And then there was Sue Jenkin Jones who also was textiles who came in to do some knitwear and she’s now a tutor I think with St Martins. And she came there, sort of briefly, maybe about, maybe only for about a year or two. And then Celia Birtwell came back to do her own collection of prints and clothes. So, between all of that, I sort of stayed and I suppose because I’d been there longest, you know, became chief designer, although I don’t think I ever had it written on my door. [laughs] But, it was sort of, and within that time was when I started to do a few things for the other groups, you know, I did a few things for Coopers. And really, I mean when I think of the whole thing, it taught me such a lot, because you know, it taught me the thrill of actually seeing people wearing your clothes that you didn’t know and it was a Betty Jackson Page 274 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27) thrill. You know, I was almost arrested in Selfridges for shoplifting, because I was skulking behind a rack, you know, watching somebody pull things that were my things, off the rail and going to the fitting room with them and I was just amazed and had to wait to see if she bought it or not, you know. And so they got the store security on to me because I was lurking around rails [laughing], they thought I was… but all I was doing was waiting for her to come out of the changing room, but anyway. And it was a thrill when you saw people, you know, you just realised this is actually you know, something that started off as a tiny colour swatch or a tiny bit of fabric, has now done the whole circle because somebody’s paid money to wear what you’ve started off. And it’s just – that wasn’t very articulately said, but it’s really a thrill. And I remember really clearly driving down through Grosvenor Square and stopping the car to say hello to somebody, because I thought I knew her, but I didn’t know her, I just knew what she had on. And wound the window down and said, ‘Hello, how are you?’ and you know, it was just that stupid thing, but I was so convinced I knew her and then I had to say, ‘Oh I’m so sorry, I mistook you for somebody else’. But she was head to foot, she had the coat, she had the dress, she had the whole lot on and I didn’t know her from Adam. And it was just such a thrill. And I bumbled off you know, with excuses and you know, never knew this poor woman, but anyway. It was actually that accessibility that thrilled me as well, it was actually not just doing something for your mates and not just doing something and making five of them, it was actually doing something and making four hundred of them and you know, and then it was, when I did the stuff for Coopers it was making five thousand of them. And you know, the thrill of your initial idea being then available on a much bigger scale was very exciting and it was the first time I’d experienced that.

And the woman in Selfridges, did you approve of her choices?

Yeah, she was great, it was the Viyella, it was a maroon spot Viyella I remember, with, little dress with a Peter Pan collar and pearl buttons down the front. And she bought a waistcoat as well, there was a leather waistcoat that went with it. I remember the outfit absolutely, I could draw it for you now. It’s really funny.

Maroon spots or…?

Betty Jackson Page 275 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27)

No, white spots on maroon Viyella. Remember Viyella fabric, you see Viyella fabric doesn’t exist now, but we used to use it a lot. Cotton wool mix, most fabulous fabric.

And it suited her?

And she looked great. She looked great, yeah. She looked great. So it is a thrill that never goes away, I mean you know, it’s still a thrill when people buy things and look great and it’s still a thrill when you know, you see people wearing things and you know, they’ve made, I mean it’s more of a thrill now because the choice is, why on earth should they. You know, it has to work much harder because the choice is huge.

And the people who you had a part in recruiting, Terence Nolder and so forth, how did they work out, how were they to work with?

Terrence was always delightful and he, I mean he went on to run his own business which eventually, for one reason or another, closed down. But there was a time when he was incredibly successful for it and that was nice. I mean I think, I mean there’s a sort of, there’s a funny period, there’s a period of you know, initial sort of excitement and passion and a first collection and it’s new and it’s thrilling and it’s… and the second collection also you know, people want to see and then, as I said before, the sustainability is the thing that’s always tricky. To sustain anything to the same degree of intensity is often impossible. So it was, I think it was very successful for Quorum and I think he enjoyed working there enormously, but I think it wasn’t without its pressure. And he was always, I mean he still comes to the shows, he was there last Tuesday, he still comes to the shows, but he isn’t designing any more. I think he had quite a rough ride when he decided to leave and he left when they sort of stopped, Quorum and I think he found it quite difficult to find his own identity. He’d been trying to do daywear for a while, but this was sort of during the eighties and he was less successful with that. He was very good at occasion wear and, but you know, like anybody, I suppose you want to – very difficult to, when somebody is good at something, they then want to diversify and it’s very difficult, I suppose because you get bored with doing the same thing. But it’s often where people come a cropper.

Betty Jackson Page 276 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27)

And what was he like as a person?

Very nice. Charming boy, really sweet. Married to a French woman who worked in a bank, very nice also. Had other relationships outside of that, that was fine. But he was a very nice sensitive soul. Funny as well, very funny. Told the best jokes.

What sort of jokes?

Well dirty jokes, obviously. They were the funniest jokes. And we laughed a lot, which is always good isn’t it?

How did his jokes fit in with your sense of humour generally?

Oh, you know, generally I think we appreciated it, yeah, they were all very gossip led, really, as you are. It was all very, yeah bitchy stuff, I suppose, but not really meant badly, it was inoffensive I think.

And how does that fit in with the pattern in the fashion business – the bitchy stuff I mean?

Oh, that’s another myth. You can avoid that if you need to. You don’t need to be part of that at all. It exists not just in fashion, it exists in lots of creative industries, doesn’t it, the theatre, arts, the whole lot. But you can avoid it, you can know about it and avoid it, just like anything. You choose, you, in control.

And have you actively chosen to avoid it?

I think so, I mean not always successfully. I have been involved in things that were distressing, I suppose, but yeah generally, it doesn’t interest me at all.

How d’you avoid it?

Well, you avoid it by avoiding the people who are like that, I mean just as you would avoid anything that didn’t attract you. There’s a quality of life within all of this and it’s like Betty Jackson Page 277 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27) anything, you I think move generally towards people who are either inspirational, amusing, a similar sort of soul sister or whatever, so you know, I have never really made this sort of, what is generally called fashion bitching, I’ve never really made it an important part of my life. It’s not important at all.

And who were your soul people at that time?

Well, there was a band of people that I’d met when I worked with Wendy Dagworthy and we were still the same band of people and it was a group of us who did things together, you know, it was maybe ten or twelve of us. Some people worked in magazines, some people – there was also a group of people who had graduated from the Royal College of Art who were the same age and you know, generally we sort of knew people like that. And there were people like Lynne Franks who had started her company and was very active in you know, PR circles. So there was always sort of interesting people around, really.

And had your life changed much in the way that you socialised or you described earlier on?

No, not at all, it stayed the same. I mean we danced a lot, I think. I remember dancing a lot. There were always parties that you also danced a lot and you know, generally went to listen to music where we always danced a lot. Gloria Gaynor and you know, I mean it was just sort of, really lot of hot clubs to go to. Steven Strange was doing his things at the Barracuda and Legends had started and we used to go to Tramp and dance, really. A lot of our social life was dancing [laughs]. Sounds silly really, but it was.

Did you ever give parties?

Yeah.

How were you living at that time?

Betty Jackson Page 278 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27)

In a flat, in central London in Riding House Street which is just in fact by Mortimer Street and Goodge Street, which was a mansion block flat, two bedroom flat, rather splendid, rather spacious really, we were just very lucky to get it. And I was living with my then boyfriend and yeah, and it was easy. We didn’t have very much money, but we ran a car, we went to see films that we wanted to see. He was a very clever chap, a solicitor, so that was also a very different world really. But it, just merged, you know, didn’t mind, you didn’t mind, it was, there was a sort of big mix of people going on really.

People from his world and your world, or what?

Yeah, but I’d known him for quite a long time anyway, so you know, he wasn’t just a solicitor that I’d met, I’d known him from college, so we had quite a lot of mutual friends anyway, that had grown up over the years. He didn’t have a separate world, we had moved to London together, so you know, he was part of it when I met Wendy and he was part of it during all that time. So we had generally cultivated this… and you know, there was a couple of people who were in amateur dramatics and good friends of mine and you know, life was very social, you didn’t, we didn’t go home and watch the television, we just didn’t ever do that, there was always something to do. We were probably out five nights out of seven, I should think.

What did you do apart from dancing?

Went to the cinema, went for drinks, went for cheap meals, you know. There was a sort of, you know… went for expensive meals, although I can’t remember how we afforded, but we always went to you know, places like Mr Chow’s and you know, very grand places we used to go to. I can’t remember how we afforded that, but we did. It was just, we went to, you know, lots of stylish places I suppose. It was part of the thing that you did.

And I mean eating, did you eat, mostly eat out, sometimes, did you cook?

Yeah, I think I did. I had about three dishes that I could rustle up. I always sort of used to think, I think I thought I was a much better cook than I was. It was only when I met David that I realised how hopeless I was, because he’s very good with food, being French, but I Betty Jackson Page 279 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27) think I sort of fancied myself as a bit of an international… but it was delusion actually, and I’m not very good. But it sort of didn’t matter, nobody minded, you know. You used to sort of go round for a curry and cheap red wine. I mean it was, I suppose quite bohemian really.

So what were your dishes that you cooked?

Oh, stuffed peppers – fabulous. I could make chicken liver pate, also fabulous and I could make chocolate mousse, also fabulous. And that’s about it, really.

That’s one meal.

Yeah well, it used to be spread over more, you know, eat it in different orders I think, yeah.

And did your boyfriend cook at all?

He did. Yeah, he was, yeah he was quite a good cook I think, really. I’ve never had those people who expected girls to cook, I’ve always been out with people who are modern in that respect, which I suppose that’s why one goes out with them, because I couldn’t ever have borne anybody who expected you know, that thing about – as my mother did, provided you know, meals on the table for when everybody got home. So I never did that.

And how did that relate to your peers at that time?

Oh, similar. Everybody was couples, most people were couples really, it was, it was a nice group of people.

But I mean in terms of the distribution of domestic labour?

More or less the same. I mean there were, because all the girls worked, all the girls were, had a job, so everybody was in the same boat. They didn’t really, I don’t think I knew anybody who stayed at home. Betty Jackson Page 280 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side A (part 27)

[End of Tape 14 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 281 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

Tape 14 Side B [part 28]

Yeah, I mean the only family that I think we were friends with was a couple, who are still great friends and actually she was at school with my sister and they were the only ones who really had a small family and we were very good friends with them. But they lived a more bohemian life than we did and you know, they were in amateur dramatics and had two gorgeous children, which I am godmother, but anyway, and are now you know, very successful anyway. But, it was generally, you know, very relaxed, easy time. You know, it was sort of flower power stuff, except it was after that wasn’t it, because I’m talking about late seventies, so yeah, the Rolling Stones in the park and you know – no that was much earlier – but it was generally easy. You know, it was generally a relaxed, easy – brought on with copious use of marijuana obviously, so that obviously relaxed everybody.

Where and how did you take it?

Well I’m not sure I want to… [laughs] It was just around, I mean it was part of, you know everybody, everybody did, it was past the experimental stage that had been the thing at college, so it wasn’t really to a frightening level, it was much more to do with social enjoyment really, rather than anybody being drug addicts, in inverted commas. And it was, it was really a very social thing to do.

But I mean did you take in people’s houses, in clubs or what?

Yeah, both. Very rarely publicly unless it was in a club, sort of dance floor situation, but usually it was at people’s homes.

And who supplied it?

Oh, there were various people who supplied it. There was one main chap who actually used to have most of it. He had the most money and he just always had you know, stuff available really.

And who was he? Betty Jackson Page 282 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

He’s dead now, he was the boyfriend of a friend of mine and he got cancer early on and died. But he was a very successful salesman, he used to sell jeans and he also – I mean it wasn’t something you know, we didn’t, I mean certainly I didn’t ever think of getting a weekly supply or anything like that. I think I probably just you know, joined in when it was there, really. I certainly actively didn’t go and buy or deal or any of that, I couldn’t be bothered, it was sort of a you know, nice as a relaxation thing, but just, for me just like having a lovely glass of wine, you know. I mean it sounds all sort of soppy and stupid, but in fact it was like that.

And did you smoke it, was it – I mean there were different kinds of cannabis aren’t there? Marijuana.

There were, yes. We used to generally smoke it. I used to smoke at that time, I used to smoke Gauloises at that time, so I used to smoke it. Or, I think we’d got over making cakes out of it, I’m not sure, I think that that was a phase but I’m not sure it was during that time. So just generally smoking things really and sniffing things or I don’t know, yeah.

What did you sniff?

Well you know, things like amyl nitrate I suppose was going round, it was anything that you know, was a pleasurable thing.

What did that do?

It made you see very clearly indeed and it made you feel fantastic. And just made things much more enjoyable.

What did you see?

D’you know Eva, it’s such a long time ago and it was such a small part of, really, it would be just like when, saying when was the first time you got really, really drunk and I couldn’t Betty Jackson Page 283 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28) remember that, but I know I have been really, really drunk. But actually to recall that specific incident is so, because it was just a part of one’s life – I’m trying to get this in context with everybody, but everybody did it and it wasn’t anything shocking or anything like that, it was simply sometimes somebody would come round with cannabis and roll up a joint and everybody was there, and sometimes they didn’t, but it certainly wasn’t, it wasn’t, I never took drugs in order to achieve something, I only ever did it as a social relaxing thing. I mean that’s as far, the extent it actually invaded my life, that was it.

What I mean is, when you say you saw things, seeing visually, metaphorically?

No, I think I said I saw things more clearly, so things were in sharper focus. Colours were brighter, but it’s like anything that enhances anything, everything looks a little bit sharper.

Because I mean people talk about seeing things philosophically don’t they? Or you know, life, meaning of life or, that sort of thing.

Oh I see. Well, no I’m afraid I’ve, no I’ve yet to experience that one, sorry about that. It’s not figured yet.

And any other drugs?

Yeah, there were other drugs around, odd tablets, but it was so, I was so uninterested in the whole thing that I never, you know, it was sort of irrelevant to me. It meant other people, but it was such a small part of them as a personality or as a friend that it was you know, it was something that was never really questioned or you know, nobody said ooh, what have you got today, we weren’t in that sort of circle. I mean everybody really had quite busy jobs, you know everybody was, nobody was doing nothing, so with all of this stuff that was going on, you really you know, you really had to be up and running by nine thirty the next morning and producing something and replying to questions and you know, and organising things. So I think we were all a bit too busy to get into the sort of drug crazed oblivion that happened to a few people, we all had too much to do.

Were most of the crowd connected with the fashion industry in one way and another? Betty Jackson Page 284 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

Some. Wendy certainly was. There was another girl called Elaine who was a journalist, Lynne Franks was a PR in fashion, Lesley Goring did start off as Lynne’s assistant, but then run her own PR company so she was involved in fashion also. Maggie and Peter were amateur dramatics and there were, sort of various other people that we met. And people that we met – Keith at Smile, all of the people from the Royal College were involved in design of one sort or another, you know they were either architects or they were interior designers or they were to do with textiles of some sort.

And how did the relationships work, I mean did you usually meet as big crowds, or did you meet individually or - how did you get together?

We used to eat, we used to go to places like the Zanzibar Club, which was a new place that you could easily spend – you know, it was a sort of extension of a wine bar, but it was a members only thing, so you could stay from three o’clock in the afternoon until the next morning if you so required. So you could drink, but you could drink coffee or tea, or you could drink wine or spirits or you could eat or you could have full blown dinner and it was that sort of extended evening thing. You know, you might talk to somebody at four o’clock and say, ‘Meet you for a drink later at the Zanzibar’ or ‘So and so’s coming to the Zanzibar, why don’t you come along’ or you know, there were various places like that that we did. And then the Groucho opened so people moved to the Groucho. And often you know, that’s what you did, you went and then you went home and that was it, or you went on to the cinema or you went out and ate cheap pasta somewhere, you know what I mean, it was all a very social sort of thing really.

So people sort of drifted in and out of the places, you didn’t meet people often by appointment with this individual or that couple or whatever?

No, there was often more than a couple of couples; we often met in a group of six or eight people I think. Sometimes it was less, but rarely I think.

Are there people, you know many of that crowd that you still have contact with?

Betty Jackson Page 285 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

Yes, all of those people that I’ve mentioned, yes all of those people. You know, I mean friendships ebb and flow don’t they, I mean friendships, you see a lot of people and then maybe you see less of them and then, but it doesn’t mean that the friendship stops, it just means that people’s rhythm of life changes. And then of course I suppose a couple of people had children, which then affects that and other people didn’t, so I suppose you know, people came and went really, but I think the core still remained the same. A lot of it was led by people like Lynne who were very proactive, you know in London and very, knew what was going on and very importantly wanted to be at most openings or most first nights or most private views or you know, that sort of thing. So there was always you know, something to do.

Tell me about some of the trips that you took – you talked about going to the Far East and…

Yes, this is when I was at Quorum, I went – because they used to manufacture a lot in Hong Kong, so they thought it would be a good idea if I went out to meet everybody and see the set up and it would be inspirational, and so I did. So I used to go once or twice a year to Hong Kong. I also went to Portugal where they used to make jersey and t-shirts. I didn’t go to India with them till much later, but they used to manufacture in India also, but I never went to India until after I left. But it was fantastic, it was great to see. It was another world, really and the skill that you see is brilliant and being halfway round the other side of the world and yes, it was all very exciting.

So can you talk about a typical trip or a trip that you remember, you know, the shape of it and what you did?

Well, I would go and visit manufacturers and spend more or less all day with anyone, looking at the sort of finishes they could do, looking at the sort of things that they were working on. In knitwear cases it was the sort of yarns that they were using, the sort of prints that they were doing – because print, I mean I think it’s when we started, I think Quorum taught me about print, it taught me not to be frightened of print really, because I’d always been able to buy textile prints because of course it’s Quorum’s history of textile prints with Celia. And I’d always been able to do that, so there was one point when we Betty Jackson Page 286 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28) produced a lot of prints in the Far East and you know, you’d go and, I mean I’d take embroideries out there and show them and they’d you know, reproduced them and copied them and it was, and so I used to spend most days with them and then dinner would be organised. I mean usually Radley went, that’s really when you know, I talked to him the most I suppose really, because he was always on those trips, he always made sure he was there. So dinner would be spent with him and a manufacturer or just him and Caroline, who was the head of design there, or, so it was sort of, quite a sort of intense trip. We would only go for three or four days at a time and then leave all the designs, draw them up, leave them and then they’d arrive in London a little bit later.

And what sort of, what were the discussions like that you had with the people there, with the designers and so on? In Hong Kong or…?

Well there weren’t other designers in Hong Kong, I mean we were the design team that went out, I mean I was the designer and it would be you know, how to achieve what you wanted to achieve; what sort of finish you wanted on things, what sort of, what was possible, what was not possible, you know what machinery you wanted to use and you know, how could they achieve this particular hem or this pocket or… and it was very technical, I think really. I went out with ideas and it was, most of the trip was to do with explaining how I wanted something to look and therefore how they would achieve that. So, and a lot of it was you know, just social, you know to put a face to the name and you know, there was a lot of PR stuff I suppose, you know. Again, that thing about if they’re working with you it’s better, really. So a lot of it was working out relationships and letting them see that there was somebody drawing the drawings that they got or drawing out the specs that they got.

And how did they react to your visits?

I think completely professionally, I think they were certainly not manufacturers who worked solely for them, they worked for an awful lot of people and they’re very hospitable folk. So we always were incredibly well received. I suppose also he used to buy a lot from them, they were very big at one time, Radley, so I suppose that when you’re doing millions of pounds of business with somebody then it pays you to be nice to them, really. Betty Jackson Page 287 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

Is this the same in all the places that you went to?

Yeah, yeah. We always, it was always big manufacturers, you know we were always red carpet treatment, really.

And going back to the people at Quorum – you mentioned Alice Pollock, a session or two ago and you had one particular memory about her. What else do you remember about her, what was she like?

She didn’t come in at all after that, I think it was very brief, I think I was still you know, too terrified to speak to anybody and by the time I did pluck up courage to say anything to anybody, she’d sort of gone, really. So that was sort of very early on really and I had no, I had no other dealings with her at all. I think her and Al Radley had argued badly at the beginning and so she made herself scarce. I think, but I’m not sure. I did meet her daughter at the Ossie Clark exhibition that he had, the retrospective at the V and A. And that was quite nice, because she looked exactly like her and she said oh, she must have been little, because I think Alice had children early on too and so she said that she remembers coming in and seeing, so, but I didn’t remember at all, but it was rather nice.

And what was the – was Al Radley her boss, was he?

Well he bought Ossie Clark, he bought the name, he bought and financed the whole thing. He bought the name Quorum, at that time Quorum was a company and Al Radley bought the company, took it over. So I suppose he employed, I’ve absolutely no, it happened a long time before I got there so I’ve absolutely no idea, you’d have to check with history.

Because she’d actually set up Quorum hadn’t she?

With Ossie, yeah.

With Ossie.

Betty Jackson Page 288 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

And Celia.

So you had, I mean, did you have any sort of impression of her, or thoughts about her, or attitude?

No, and also they were sort of slightly older, I mean they were sort of of the Zandra Rhodes, you know, they were sort of another generation from me, really. You know, I don’t know how much older, but it must have been you know, five or ten years older than me. So you know, chalk and cheese really, I mean it was not, I mean I knew about the madness that had been Quorum and I knew about the fabulousness that had been Quorum, but I didn’t really – Ossie was much more high profile than Alice anyway, so I didn’t connect her with anything more than, oh my God, it’s Alice Pollock sitting naked reading The Times.

[laughs] Who else can you remember from there, clearly?

From Quorum itself?

From Quorum or Coopers, you know, the people that you worked with in those years, apart from those people that you’ve…

Well, Karen Radley was the figurehead, you know took over the running of it, but was a very difficult person. I mean being the daughter I think is always difficult, so she must have had a tricky time. But she didn’t make it easy by, she was really obnoxious to most people so that was tricky. And very few people liked her or respected her, but she had a difficult job, I mean she was obviously given it to turn round and she wasn’t really sensitive in the way she dealt with people, certainly not creative people. And it wasn’t that she didn’t want to be, but she just didn’t have the wherewithal, so that was often a public relations disaster, really.

What about your relations with her?

Betty Jackson Page 289 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

Oh I, she came in sort of after, there was a sort of respect I suppose for me, she never rattled my cage really, she – and I made it quite clear from the beginning that you know, she must never meddle in anything creatively, which she did try and do with the others. But she didn’t me, I don’t know whether it was because you know, by that time I’d sort of worked out what the collection required and delivered the goods or whatever, I don’t know whether it was that or whether it was because you know, I did get a bit of press and there was a bit of a reaction about it and sales were quite good, I suppose, that she thought that she could just leave that. And it was other bits that, so she was tricky. And generally my staff, my machinists and pattern cutters were lovely and they rolled over, they changed, they turned over, but the PR, Lynne Cardy was a huge influence and you know, your link with press. I used to have to meet quite a few journalists. I mean I remember showing Grace Coddington through the collection and just thinking how wonderful she was and she was working at British Vogue then and Michael Roberts was a very influential journalist, he was on The Sunday Times and he was terrifying. So there were people like that who were, but then you know, the arrogance of youth, I think. You just thought you were it and you were probably the most important, so that was a… And Steve Strange I remember, you know, he was great. There were lots of people who were doing fantastic things that one was a part of, but it almost feels like it was always this sort of group thing. The big memory is that there were a lot of people doing a lot of things together and I think that that’s what we were, that was life at that time.

And why was Grace Coddington wonderful?

Well she’s very beautiful and she was incredibly nice and incredibly elegant and you know, talked in the most intelligent way that I’d ever heard anybody speak of fashion I think, and was genuinely interested and excited and thrilled and very encouraging so, yeah, she was really rather wonderful.

Beautiful in what way?

Physically beautiful.

And how did she look? Betty Jackson Page 290 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28)

Very pale skin, red hair, very stylish, very thin and tall. Was a model of course, originally before she became a fashion editor. And incredible sort of deep, sunken eyes and very sort of straight angular features; really very striking indeed.

But what did Karen Radley look like?

Completely the opposite – not elegant in any way, certainly not stylish and really rather like that sort of north London Jewish princess sort of look, which I don’t mean, but that’s the only way I can describe her. That sort of sets it in my mind. She had long hair, she was not pretty at all and not attractive at all in that sort of… and her features were rather sort of overblown and she had, she was full of figure, she was a very rounded – she had good legs, but that was about it. She was short as well.

By overblown, what d’you mean by overblown?

Well she always denied she’d had a nose job, but she always looked as it she’d had a nose job. You know, she had one of those sort of really rather bulbous, tipped up noses that look like the result of a, you know, one you’ve chosen in a catalogue or something, but then you’ve not fitted it on properly. And she had protruding eyes and not a great skin, wore too much make-up, you know, skin, facial make-up and yes, really rather… and like I said, she didn’t have an attractive manner, you wouldn’t, she… and I’m not sure it was even her fault, I think she’d had a tricky life, really. But anyway, that’s not my problem, but she was rather overbearing and she felt like you know, that she was due a certain thing because she was the boss’s daughter, which I always thought was completely stupid. And you know, and I had long conversations with her about earning, you know, doing something really good or well before you know, you expected people to let you through doors first and you know. Anyway, she had a very overblown idea of herself I think.

Who said about letting people through doors first?

No, but she always wanted to play the boss, but without being the boss and, but she liked the role of you know, expecting to be the boss. I think Terence Nolder had much more of Betty Jackson Page 291 C1046/10 Tape 14 Side B (part 28) a tricky time because she used to go and give him grief about things and he used to find it very exasperating, but I’m happy to say it never happened with me.

Grief - how?

I think she used to whinge and nitpick and meddle instead of you know, I don’t think she ever brought out the best in people, she certainly wasn’t good at dealing with creative people, but she would think that she was, she would think that she was, she had a different idea of herself than what was reality. You’re definitely gonna have to close this one.

The interference was with their work?

Yes, with their work. She would constantly go and want to see sketches, want to see more new things, want to see things half finished, want to see toiles of things with him. Whereas me she left entirely by myself and I would say, ‘I want you to come and see this jacket because it’s fabulous’ or ‘I want you to come and see this, but just don’t look at that until it’s finished, I’m don’t want to show you until…’ and she always listened to me, I suppose because I’m slightly older and I’d been there before her. She joined after I had joined, so there was a certain sort of ‘don’t mess with me’ thing going on between us. I was quite forceful about that I think.

Did that come easily to you?

Oh, I think where work’s concerned it does. I think I felt very protective of my work.

[End of Tape 14 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 292 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29)

Tape 15 Side A [part 29]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson, it is Thursday the third of March 2005 and we’re starting tape fifteen. And Betty, we ended the last session talking about Quorum; I’d like to ask you one or two more questions about Quorum before we move on. You mentioned a number of times an exhibition at the V and A for Ossie Clark and I just wanted to ask you a bit more about that. You’ve talked about it as though it was something exceptional – how did it come about?

Well it was posthumous for Ossie because he’d already died of course and I think it was, it was just thought that actually he really was a genius, and I mean I believe that also, and he was very much a sort of man of his time and he was very new and very exciting, what he was doing, and it was sort of about time that you know, that the genius was celebrated really I think. And it was a lovely exhibition, it was quite a small exhibition. It had started off I think, up in the north, you know his home town and had then, was housed at the V and A and it was a sort of lovely opening, because – and he would have absolutely loved it I think, because the V and A’s a very special place anyway to do fashion, I think that they had a number of his garments in their collection, but it was a most lovely evening and they opened up the garden and lots and lots of his old friends came and wore the chiffon frocks, so it really looked like an Ossie Clark event. You know, there were sort of beautiful girls wafting around in [laughs], and I think he would have thoroughly approved really. And I think the V and A particularly, when it does something well like that, it does it very well and it really was a sort of celebration which he deserves. I mean it’s a shame that the whole thing ended in such tragedy, you know just personally and professionally for him, I think. Because I’m sure he was disappointed at the end, but you know, great that there was the celebration of his work.

Can you say a bit more about, you know, well, the tragic end?

I only met him a couple of times after he’d sort of finished with Quorum, with Radley at any rate. And I met him at fabric fairs and he was always really sweet and optimistic and there was always somebody in tow who was about to invest in him or about to launch another label, but I’m not sure it ever happened. And I knew, I mean there’s a sort of Betty Jackson Page 293 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29) network of technical workers of course, that all know each other, so seamstresses that worked for me and under the label of Radley were all in touch with the people that had worked for Ossie and you know, I think that they kept everybody up to date with the news, but he didn’t work at the end and didn’t have very much money, didn’t have any money at all, in fact. And it’s rather sad, really, when he had been such a driving force and such, and it was such a pivotal moment in British fashion I think, that it wasn’t able to be harnessed differently and turned into something that was productive until the end. Largely to do with Ossie’s own personality I’m sure, but as I say, I mean you know, I wasn’t really, you know my relationship with him was really brief and when I got over the initial fright and was able to actually stammer a sentence out [laughs], you know, I think I liked him enormously. He was terribly charismatic, but I think maybe he just had upset or abused relationships too much for them to rekindled you know, for the hundred and fiftieth time. That’s what other people said, although you know, I’m not really in a position to talk about that. I found at the end it was rather sad, but again, that’s looking back with the arrogance of youth, you know I was just starting off and I thought it was rather sad because seeing him, you know, I knew there was genius there and you know, it was really apparent. So it was a shame, it’s always a shame when it’s fruitless, really.

When did you last see him?

That must have also been at a fabric fair, somewhere in Islington I think it was. Yeah, just briefly – ‘Hi, how are you? What are you doing?’ ‘Oh great, fantastic, great, lovely.’ End.

How did he die?

He was stabbed to death by his lover.

And how did you hear about it?

Somebody phoned me to tell me.

And the exhibition that was mounted, how much did you have to do with it? Betty Jackson Page 294 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29)

Nothing at all. Absolutely nothing at all. Oh no, I wasn’t involved at all. There was a sort of brief mention of Ossie’s contempt for the other designers [laughing] who were brought in, you know, to try and sort of flag up sales and I’m mentioned as one of those, so presumably [laughing], he told this person he had utter contempt. I don’t know whether that’s so, but you know, I don’t really care what other people, you know, I don’t care about what he thought of me so much, I just know what I thought of him. It’s irrelevant what he thought of me.

And can you say a bit more about the winding down of the Radley empire?

Well we were aware, I mean we were aware that things were you know, getting a little bit tough and that sales of the parent company weren’t good. And during my time there, I was asked to step across and do a collection for Cooper’s, which was the middle range, High Street sort of brand that was under the same umbrella, and so you know, I did a few bits of sportswear and daywear and one was sort of aware really, that it was tough, you know that things maybe on the High Street were changing. I mean Radley had been a leader and probably one of the biggest wholesalers, because as I’ve said before, they had agents all over the world and I think that they were the envy of lots of other companies who were bringing, who were manufacturing affordable, cheap daywear for the High Street. But as in lots of cases, what happened was, somebody does it well and then other people follow very quickly on your heels and learn and then actually almost do it better. So there was a big sort of change, there was a much, it was much more fashion led, it was less sort of mediocre, it was, there was a big sort of change in what was happening fashion-wise and I think maybe Radley found it difficult to respond. And so, eventually they decided, I had been working for Cooper’s as well as doing the Quorum thing and Cooper’s then – you know, it was a big company, they had a board of directors, I certainly wasn’t party to any of these discussions at all. And also – well in any case, I wasn’t party to any of the discussions, so all of a sudden Cooper’s, Jeff Cooper decided, announced that he was leaving the group, that he was splitting off, I don’t know what the financial arrangements were, and invited me to go with him as the designer. And by that time I had met my now partner, who – and I don’t know, one thing and another, I think the opportunity was there, but it would have meant, I’d been there six years and really when such an upheaval Betty Jackson Page 295 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29) happens you sort of start to look at things differently and so we sort of – I think, I don’t know whether it was David who said, well why don’t you, you know, do it for yourself now, why don’t we do it together instead of going to work for somebody else. So, that’s what we decided to do really.

And you said the industry had become more fashion led, what d’you mean by that?

I think that there was a lot more choice on the High Street, it was a lot more, sportswear was coming forward, a lot of people, you know it was very casual, it was, things were, there was a whole new market that was opening up of sort of young, exciting, innovative fabrics, performance fabrics, you know there was a sort of whole different element happening. And Radley did a particular thing, you know they did printed crepe dresses and nice daywear, but there was a sort of much more – that’s the only way I can describe it really, sportswear led, you know cottons and knitwear and tougher clothes in a way, all starting to happen. And it wasn’t what Radley could do well really. Cooper’s were very good at it and, anyway, so that was that.

I mean, what could or should Radley have done in order to survive? D’you think they could have survived?

I don’t know, I think it’s very difficult to convince your customers that when you’re good at one thing you can do something else as well. Maybe it’s not a good idea, either. You know, I’m all in favour of people sticking to what they do, to do well, because if you try to do a product that you don’t understand, I think that’s quite difficult. I mean it didn’t mean that the market dried up completely, it meant that there was a shift, you know whereas they had obviously had huge sales that underpinned the rest of the company, the emphasis shifted and they were no longer able to sustain the same turnover. So obviously they had to reduce the company size in accordance with what they could afford, I suppose. But as I say, I don’t really know because I certainly wasn’t included in any of these discussions.

And what was your actual, you know, as they were winding down, how did that affect you?

Betty Jackson Page 296 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29)

Hardly at all, really, I think. I don’t think, I don’t think I ever really worried too much about it, which is shocking really, but also you know, there’s a, I mean it was a job and I had been there a long time and I had forged personal relationships there, but I knew that you know, they would have got rid of me just as easily as if, you know, I mean I was aware early on the ruthlessness of a larger company, you know having come from the safe sanctity of Wendy, really, when it was much more based on what we wanted to do during the day rather than what we had to do. And so I think, I think, and also because my personal life was in such upheaval at that time that, you know, that did take a lot of my time I think. So I didn’t really worry too much, I sort of knew that there would be something else and it comes, there comes a point where you have to make a decision for yourself. So when we talked about it, David and myself, then it became absolutely clear that that’s what we had to do. And also if you’re just, if you’re just somebody working in the company, you know you don’t know the ins and outs, they don’t come and you know, obviously the directors had meetings at which we weren’t party to, so it was information handed, selected information I suppose we got given. So you respond to it on a day to day basis, really.

But you were aware that things weren’t going well?

I was aware, yes, we were all aware that things were a bit tough, I think.

And when you started designing for Cooper’s, how big an adaptation was that of your style or way of working?

Oh, it was something that I loved because it was much more to do with clothes that I wore myself and so I was pleased to do that, I was very pleased to do that. So no, that was great, I enjoyed that enormously. And he was clever, Jeff Cooper, I mean he was, he knew about product and he had a very, very good eye, so it was an exciting time to work with him.

How were the clothes different from what you’d been doing?

Betty Jackson Page 297 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29)

Much more, as I said, much more sportswear, much more you know, to do with younger daywear, much more active wear, you know, stretch, jersey, knitwear, sort of younger, more fun, throwaway, much cheaper. I mean you know, I learnt about the practicalities of you know, two pockets on a shirt cost more because they had to you know, get them even and I learnt about you know, anything was good as long as it was in the shops for nine ninety-nine, really. [laughs] So, you know, it taught me about, it taught me about the commercial bit of the business, he was interested in selling thousands and thousands of pieces and he did, he did. And he would cut costings down ruthlessly in order to achieve target sales, which was sometimes quite alarming, but it was all made offshore and…

Where?

In India mainly and Portugal. And no, it was exciting stuff, we did some good stuff.

And what was he like, Jeff Cooper?

Oh he was an absolute shit. [laughs] Had a terrible, shit and he had a bad temper, he was moody, he thought he was, he thought he was, he had a degree of arrogance that was extraordinary. But it was interesting, it was interesting to observe I think.

How did the arrogance manifest itself?

Temper and you know, he was just the boss, he was in control. I think also he was terribly insecure, but I think he fell out with an awful lot of people. I think most people thought he was a very difficult man.

I mean how did he behave in relation to other people?

I think he was very manipulative, I think if he needed something from you, he could be incredibly charming. If he didn’t, then he wouldn’t waste his time. He was, no he was hard, really. But I think our relationship was slightly different because I had already achieved a little bit of success at Quorum, so he knew that I could do it for him too, or I could do something for him and so he, I don’t think he ever, I don’t think we ever rowed, I Betty Jackson Page 298 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29) don’t think he ever shouted. I saw him, I witnessed his bad temper with other people, but you know, when you meet these sort of people you learn to keep them at a distance really, so we merely, I kept him at a distance.

What was he shouting about?

General run of the mill everyday things. General, run of the mill things. Really, in a desk situation he was ordering people around, if they didn’t do what he wanted to do, he shouted. That was his manner.

So how did you feel when he invited you to go and work with him?

Well I was… I suppose, I mean I can’t think that I was flattered. I think I thought that I was just useful at the time. I had no illusions that you know, he just needed somebody to draw or design or whatever, and I had no illusions that you know, had he stumbled across somebody that he thought was better, he would have made overtures to them. So I don’t think it was something I considered for a moment.

And how obvious was it by then that you were going to have to leave Quorum, or Radley, how did you, you know, come to that frame of mind?

I really, I don’t think, unless, I mean I’m wondering whether you know, it was always in the back of my mind that – I mean I remember when they moved us from Burnsall Street and sold the building in Burnsall Street and moved us to the West End, I didn’t mind being in the West End because I lived in the West End, so I could literally walk round the corner and be there, but we were always given a badly lit room. I mean either a room with absolutely no natural light or very little. And the accounts department and the rest always had fantastic offices on the top floor and I always remember saying that if ever I run my own business I’ll make sure that the design has natural light and you know, we’ll put the accountants in basement, which is in fact what we done now here. [laughs] We’ve always done that. So I don’t know whether I always thought I would do it myself and whether, but I can’t remember, you know, I can’t remember thinking all the time, oh when I do it for myself, or when I, I’m going to do this, I’m going to do this and actually this is only a Betty Jackson Page 299 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29) means to an end, this is just a stepping stone. But maybe I did feel that, but thinking back now I can’t remember that that was my goal. First of all because I didn’t have the means, you know, I had very little money myself and you know one needed a certain amount of capital to start off and finance a collection, I mean even if you do it on a small scale. So I thought of don’t really recall thinking you know, this is just a lay-by situation. But once, when David and I talked about it, because he was also involved with his family business, a family run thing, it was a natural thing for him also that one works for oneself. And funnily enough, I had kept my self-employed status all through the period at Quorum and Cooper’s, because I still did bits and pieces of illustration for people just because I enjoyed doing it, you know I enjoyed drawing all those… and so, you know it wasn’t as if I was, at any point I could have actually walked away, so I suppose it gave me a degree of independence, I was never employed by them. I was, but you know, I gave my services, so there was a sort of slight difference, I mean however, there was a slight difference in the set-up and in the relationship I think.

So how had you organised things as a self-employed person? I mean did you, you know, employ a tax accountant or something separately or, you know, how did you work it out?

Yeah, yeah, I had an accountant. I had an accountant, who’s still our accountant. So I had an accountant, because I had to have an accountant when I moved to London and started work as an illustrator, so I had to have an accountant because I was earning money independently and I was self-employed because it was easier for me to be self-employed with Wendy, you know, she didn’t want to deal with all of that stuff because it was just her and myself. She then went on to employ people properly, obviously, but you know, when it was such a casual arrangement. And so it seemed to be the most sensible. And it gave me, I suppose it gave me a feeling of independence really, that I wasn’t owned by anybody else really, which I’ve always liked that feeling. [laughs]

Did you ever have any discussions with Radley, I mean did they suggest that you go directly on the books or you know?

I’m sure we did, but for me it wasn’t, I wasn’t interested in doing that.

Betty Jackson Page 300 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29)

And you said a little while ago that your personal life was in chaos or you know, disarray – can you say a bit more about that?

Well it was just coming out of a long-term relationship and going into a very new relationship, which is always difficult for anybody. And plus the new relationship doesn’t live in this country, so that was an added complication. So yeah, that’s what was happening at that time.

How did you and David meet?

On holiday.

Where?

In Mallorca. [laughs] In Mallorca. Really amazing chance. There were five of us who, first week in August London is deserted in fact, and it was and everybody else had gone on holiday and we suddenly decided that we ought to do something too – because it is actually amazing how London does empty in August. I mean it’s rather fabulous, I do quite London in August now, because it is rather nice. But anyway, this was particular warm – seventy-nine I think it was – and so we literally, two of us went to a travel agents and said, what have you got that we can go tomorrow. So he looked on his thing and said, I’ve got a place – we wanted a sort of a house that we could just go and relax and you know, pool and all that stuff. So he said he had two; one in Yugoslavia – then Yugoslavia – and this one in Mallorca, and we literally tossed a coin. And we tossed a coin and it came down for Mallorca, because we really didn’t care, and we flew out the next day. Went to this lovely little villa up in the mountains and Mallorca is really very, very beautiful indeed, you know when you get out of that sort of touristy bit. And it was this beautiful house up in the mountains. So we literally slept and swam and got brown for the first week and you know, drank too much and played cards and – there were five of us anyway. And then about at the end of the first week we decided that we ought to go and see civilisation and the little town which was nearest, which was Sóller, Puerto Sóller, which is also beautiful. We went down for a swim in the sea in the afternoon, late afternoon about four o’clock and then this friend of mine, Lesley and I said that we would walk along the front to find a Betty Jackson Page 301 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side A (part 29) bar, to find the nicest bar to have a drink in afterwards and then go back home. And we walked along the front and David was staying in – we chose the bar with the blue awning, which was the bar that belonged to his hotel – he was literally looking out of the window of his bedroom and he looked at his friend, saw me downstairs and said, ‘You see that girl? That’s the girl I’m going to marry’.

[End of Tape 15 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 302 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30)

Tape 15 Side B [part 30]

Anyway, we went to have a drink in this bar, our friends came and joined us and it was a nice bar because it had backgammon and chess and all of those sort of things happening, so two of the people that we were with played chess and, David came down and came across and asked if he could play the winner. And that’s how he introduced himself to our little group of friends. And so it went from there.

And who won?

He did, he’s a very, very good chess player. He was at the time, south of France chess championship, that he didn’t say, but he’s an extremely skilled chess player, so he absolutely wiped the floor with both of them [laughing], even when they joined up and he played without looking. [laughs] They had several games and he beat them.

Who was he playing against?

These two friends of mine, we were all on holiday together.

Which four were the others?

There were two other girls and two boys with us.

Lesley… And what were your own first impressions of David?

I thought he was very good looking. He was you know, thin and brown and healthy and you know, all of that stuff. And, but apart from that, I mean I didn’t think anything about him. I certainly wasn’t looking for any complications in my life. But anyway.

And how did you look at that time?

Oh probably bizarre, oh well I knew I was brown. I just looked the same probably, but you know, thirty years younger. Betty Jackson Page 303 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30)

Dark, fair?

Oh no, I’ve always had blonde hair, gave up the pink hair in the seventies. [laughs] And it was smooth and blonde. [laughs] I think short, I think I had it sort of chopped in a rather masculine sort of bob. I never gave up the androgyny, I still like that sort of not so feminine thing. Although I’m wearing frills today, but they’re rather rough frills so that’s alright.

And what happened next?

And, well then we came home and…

Home?

Oh we came back to London after our package holiday and David had a, was on holiday with three friends, one of whom completely fell in love with Lesley, friend of mine. So they had decided that they would see each other in the future, but you know, holiday romances, they’re rather stupid and you think well, you’ll get home and it suddenly won’t be the same. But I think we got home and on the Monday or the Tuesday of the following week, he, David phoned and asked me if I’d meet him for dinner. Anyway, he’d arrived at Heathrow Airport. And they’d confiscated his luggage and [laughing] and so he was stood there in his shorts, at Heathrow Airport. So we went to dinner at Langan’s and I suppose it started from there, really. He was very persistent.

Why had they confiscated his luggage?

D’you know, I can’t remember. I think because he had bought wine and spirits, as presents for everybody, he’d gone way over the limit. But he couldn’t speak any English either, at all, and so I think that they were just being particularly offensive as customs officers sometimes can be. But anyway they’d, no they hadn’t confiscated his luggage, I’m sorry, they confiscated all his duty free that he had bought because he’d gone over the Betty Jackson Page 304 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30) limit, they had lost his luggage, they had lost his suitcase, his suitcase went somewhere else. That’s it, yeah. So he was literally stood there in his shorts.

And when you met him?

Yeah, he was still in his shorts. We had to go and buy some clothes. The case didn’t turn up for about a week. He got two hundred pounds compensation from British Airways, but anyway it did eventually turn up, his luggage. Yes, we had to go and buy him some trousers and a couple of tee shirts.

And how far had your relationship gone in Mallorca during that holiday before he came to London?

It was bizarre really, I sort of thought it would be, you know I didn’t think, it was very complicated because I had had, I was in this long-term relationship and it was not something that I would normally look for. I’ve got particularly, stupidly, northern moral values and my theory is always you live your life as a consequence of your actions before and I certainly didn’t want to do anything that I would regret. So I was incredibly cautious, but rather overwhelmed really I think, by what had happened. I mean personally as well, after the accident I sort of thought that you know, I suppose I thought that I would no longer be attractive or sought after or any of those things, so it was the sort of bit that I had probably closed off and I think I probably was incredibly grateful to the bloke that I was with, you know, for being there I suppose. And so it was very complicated and very overwhelming for me personally, I think, that somebody was so determined [laughs] to have a relationship with me.

And did you find out why he was so determined?

Well he fell in love, so there you go. And you know, and I did soon after, I think probably.

And how had the relationship been with your long-term partner?

Betty Jackson Page 305 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30)

Complicated. And all rather disrupted at the end, really. He, yeah, yeah it was, it had got, well it had been a long time, I mean since the accident. He’d been, I think I explained before that he had been a friend and then the relationship went further and we’d sort of fallen in, I suppose, with each other. But I think, I never thought that we weren’t building something together, I think that I never thought that anything would change really. It was a shock to find that… and also because of the situation you know, I was in the car accident with the person that I was definitely destined to spend the rest of my life with and you know, so really over this ten year period or so, whatever it was, I think I had had to come to terms with quite a lot of things personally and probably shut down a lot of emotional bits of me, really, in order to carry on.

Why was it complicated?

I think I thought, well, because when anything starts off as friendship – and also sometimes his commitment wasn’t always there and I always used to think it was my fault, and anyway - it was complicated because we had, well we were never, we were together, but you know, there was always this possibility that we wouldn’t be I suppose. But I think that I thought that I would not rock the boat, I suppose.

How d’you mean, the possibility that you wouldn’t be?

You know, people live together and split up all the time, they still do, don’t they? I don’t think I thought, I think the accident changed my opinion that there was something that could be forever. I never, I still don’t think that things go on forever now. I’m sure they don’t.

Had you though, in a general sense expected to go on you know, did you ever think it would lead to marriage, for example?

I suppose I did. I suppose it was, you know, it was never really on the cards. I think I probably, or I think I am independent. I’m sure we talked about it, but I can’t even remember why we did or why we didn’t, really.

Betty Jackson Page 306 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30)

And when you were all in Mallorca together, was your partner aware at all of this new thing that was starting to happen between you and David?

I think he was, yes. He was, yes.

How did…?

I don’t really want to… it’s too, you know, I think we’re… this is just a thing that happened, but I’m really not, I don’t want to talk about this in any greater detail than this. So I think if we move on, it happened, I split up with the other person. That was very complicated because we had a house and effects together and David decided to extricate himself from France and come and live here. He also decided that he would help and we did this thing together and set up the business and that’s really now the most important thing, but I don’t really want to go on, because I would never, ever want anybody to know about that.

Can you say any more at all about how David knew sort of, you know, how you got to know one another better or you know, how he pursued you?

David had no idea that I was in fact with this other bloke. I mean otherwise, he says, that he definitely wouldn’t, he was unaware of our relationship. [laughing] It’s because, part of the reason was, he couldn’t speak any English at all, so we had to converse in my appalling GCSE French, O level French, at that time, you know. I could only say stupid things in French. So it was, actually our communication was hilarious really, but it was an overwhelming feeling that we had to be together, I suppose. So he knew immediately and used to come and spend weekends, or I used to go across to France for weekends and we managed to see each other maybe once every two weeks, or once every four, yeah maybe once every two weeks. And it was all very exciting, this sort of European romance. And plus, you know he comes from the south of France, which is very glamorous and it was always lovely weather – except the first time we went, it rained all weekend, but anyway but it’s always lovely weather and it’s very beautiful and it was all incredibly exciting. And plus, you know, the whole thing was egged on I suppose by Lesley and David’s friend Christian becoming partners as well. So Christian very quickly moved to London and set Betty Jackson Page 307 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30) up much, long time before David did. David had to, it took him a couple of years really before he came here, but my relationship with the other, when it, you know when it was quite clear early on, then the relationship with the other boy, we stopped it and took steps to split our lives. He went to live elsewhere, you know, I stayed in the house and we split everything up and it was generally very widely known that we were no longer together.

And how quickly did that happen?

I think that was very quick. It was in about three weeks.

And may I ask - you needn’t respond - how he took this whole thing?

I think we were both horribly shocked. It was a terribly difficult time.

And what was David doing at that time, I mean professionally, how was his life?

He was working in, I mean his family have a, run a commodities company in France, so they buy and sell things and electrical goods, they manufacture out of the Far East and furniture and tools and that sort of thing. But it was, well it still is, an enormous business and David was part of it. There were four brothers that worked together, there were actually five, but he comes from a huge family, seven of them altogether. Five brothers, one, the youngest one, did not go into the family firm, but it was started by his father and four brothers worked together and David was part of that.

Whereabouts?

In Marseille.

So, what happened next?

So, well, we decided that we would do this thing together, so I then told Jeff Cooper that I wasn’t going to accept his kind invitation and I was going to set up by myself. And this was in the June, I think, of eighty-one. And in fact what happened was, Wendy of course Betty Jackson Page 308 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30) was still carrying on and showing in an exhibition space and she’d gone on to join, I think it was called the LDC, a small group of London designers called the London Designer Collection, she was involved in that and there was a sort of small trade show held at Olympia every season and the LDC used to show very grandly in a hotel, somewhere separate. And we know that we wanted to do it, so I told them that I didn’t, I’d be leaving to start up my own company and they made me serve notice, which meant that I was actually stuck there until about the middle of August, so…

How long was that?

I think it was about a month or six weeks to do, which I had planned of course that you know, they’d just sort of say oh well, alright leave now, sort of thing, so I had planned that I’d have time to set up. But anyway, I didn’t, and so I had to work with them till the end of August, so meanwhile I had to also organise my own collection, which I did by people from my then team working for me in their spare time and my pattern cutter then, who was at Quorum, cut the patterns, my seamstress sewed them together so that by the, whatever it was, the third week in September or something, we had got a collection together. It was very small, I mean it must have only been about twenty-five, thirty pieces. And you know, because I’d been at Quorum so long I obviously knew fabric people and I knew the printer and I knew… and everybody was excited to, you know, it was an exciting prospect that, but you know, as far as actually doing general things like organising a label or anything like that, I can’t remember how I did it, but I must have just gone to the same people you know, and said, ‘Do this label’ or ‘Manufacture this label’ or whatever. But anyway, we ended up with a collection, I ended up with a collection of about twenty-four pieces. We booked to show this Olympia show, which was so disorganised and odd, but within Olympia there was an alternative group of designers, which was called the Individual Clothes Show, which was run by this friend of mine, Lesley Goring who I’d gone on holiday with and who had met David’s friend, so it was run by her and another girl called Wendy Booth and between them they ran this group of designers. So they facilitated an area where you could show and exhibit a rail of clothes and they organised invitations and they invited people, so you didn’t really have to do any of that, all you did was turn up on the day with your thing and stay at this exhibition for three days. So that’s what we did. And we showed within this group, I mean I remember you know, we put the things on, the Betty Jackson Page 309 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30) clothes, and David was over here for the weekend or for the time it was there, and I stood there with – I can’t remember, we must have had a model as well, but I can’t even remember that – but I know that Harrods came to look at the rail of clothes and because they had bought – the Harrods buyer, Geraldine James from then the department Way In at Harrods, had bought at Quorum, my clothes at Quorum – and the label said, ‘Betty Jackson for Quorum’ so people did know by that time who I was, so there presumably was a lot of interest to see what I would do on my own. And she came along, Judy Simdims as well, there were two of them that worked together, but Geraldine James was the one I remember the most. And she said, and she looked through and she said, ‘Yes, we’ll put an order down’ and [laughs] we hadn’t even got an order pad or anything, so we had to rush out and buy a triplicate book to write this stupid order down. I mean how ridiculous, you think I’d know better than that, wouldn’t you, but anyway I didn’t at the time. So, and that was our first one. And from then it sort of kicked off and I was absolutely amazed that anybody wanted… I don’t know what I’d been thinking of, whether I’d been, but anyway, I think we must have sold, I don’t know, about seventy, a hundred thousand pounds’ worth of stuff, really. Which was quite a lot. And so we went to the bank manager at Long Acre branch of Nat West bank to secure a loan in order to manufacture the goods. But it definitely meant that we were sort of kicked off and started really, so it was sort of euphoric. And then, you know, I gathered together the skills I’d learnt with Wendy of course, and everything else that I’d learnt at Quorum. And we started.

Where were you actually physically doing all these things?

Well, my previous partner had found a house in Soho in a place, in Meard Street, and funnily enough, we worked from his basement, which is really why I say it was quite a complicated relationship really. We painted it and did it up, moved machines in, built a cutting table. And this was my pattern cutter and immediately we had all of these orders of course, we then knew that we could afford to pay people wages, so we then set up the company. So my then accountant, who had you know, done little bits of things for me and steered me through, you know, stupid little bits and pieces that I’d earnt, then you know, went into gear and plus my partner, previous partner, was a solicitor and so his firm set the company up and we were sort of off, really.

Betty Jackson Page 310 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30)

So the split, I take it, was a sort of amicable one?

Yes, yes.

And he knew about David and you doing this together by then?

Yes.

Can you say anything at all about him, about what he was like and you know?

It’s not really relevant I think, he was, you know, he’s a clever, intelligent, very nice bloke.

Are you still in contact?

Rarely.

So you started up this business in the basement – who did you give your notice to at Quorum?

Karen Radley, I think. Unless I went to see Mr Radley. I think I might have told her first, and obviously Jeff Cooper.

And how did they react?

I think I was, you know, I was very dispensable really. I think you know, sorry on a personal level maybe. I’m sure they wished me well, I think, you know, six years is probably long enough for anybody to be in that sort of situation and you know, they were probably rather glad at that stage that people were offloading rather than – although I was certainly no liability because they didn’t employ me, so you know, I was on a freelance contract.

In the last period, up until the August, were you designing for yourself and them simultaneously? Betty Jackson Page 311 C1046/10 Tape 15 Side B (part 30)

I had to finish the collection that was due to be shown that September, so that’s what I was doing. What I did for my…

For Quorum?

For Quorum and the Cooper’s collection, yeah. What I did for myself was so totally different really, that you know, they didn’t overlap at all. I suddenly had a sort of personal voice that I think it was really much more to do with daywear. I stopped evening wear more or less completely.

Can you say a bit more about what was in your first collection?

It was all cotton, it was [laughs], there was sort of striped cotton, plain cotton and there was a flower print I think as well. Cotton jackets and trousers and big skirts. Sort of mannish sort of shapes I think. Grey, white and red, it was.

And how difficult was it, or not, to be you know, because this is the first collection on your own, how, did you feel there was a lot riding on it or you know, how did it feel doing that?

I suppose there must have been. I think again it was a question, you know, the stakes had got higher obviously. I didn’t set out to prove anything with the first collection, I think it was a sort of, there was a sense of finally, this is fantastic you know, doing it for myself and doing what we want and it’ll be you know, without this pressure of having to do anything that somebody else wants and you’re not sure of and so, no I can only think that there was a sort of, the intense feeling was one of freedom, really, rather than anything else. It was an exciting time.

[End of Tape 15 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 312 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31)

Tape 16 Side A [part 31]

And what was David’s role in the setting up of your business, how did that work?

Well, initially I mean he provided the money. [laughs] And as our relationship went on, he, I mean I think we had been sort of seeing each other in this ridiculous sort of travelling sort of way, going one way or the other, for about a year when you know, it was fairly obvious that we were going to stay together and then I think it must have been about eighteen months into our relationship. We met in seventy-nine and we set the… the first time we showed a collection was in the October of eighty-one, so there was a sort of two years and couple of months’ gap, I mean time in between. So he, I mean his involvement in his family company was, obviously it was a much more relaxed way of working and a lot of the stuff was, that he did, was sold before it was bought and you know, it’s that sort of commodity thing that doesn’t require, so he could be sort of anywhere really, in the world, so whenever I went to Hong Kong he would join me there for instance on work. And he got on with everybody very well and you know everybody thought he was such a glamorous Frenchman and you know, the accent fooled everybody for ages. And you know, he was, I mean by this time – how old am I? I’m sort of thirty and he also was twenty-nine, thirty, so you know, he’d travelled a bit and he knew a bit about life, it wasn’t as if we were very sort of silly young students, you know, we were going to go into something with a little bit more experience maybe, than if it had been a sort of romance at the age of seventeen or something. So he knew what I was doing at Quorum, he knew the set-up at Quorum, he knew I was self-employed, he knew I did illustrations and he started to meet a few of my other friends, of course. So he sort of knew a little bit about the life, my life in London and I think that he thought – for him there was never any question that we would be together and I think that he was thinking of ways that this would happen, because certainly at one point we did discuss living in France. But I think that he didn’t, that wasn’t ever on the cards because when he knew how I worked and what the situation was in London that you know, even in a small way I had had some recognition as a designer, then I think he thought that to start the whole thing off would be much, much more difficult in France. And also he knew nothing about the fashion industry. He was, I suppose, you know, a businessman and he, you know and he can look at it from a financial point of view, so that was always the way that it would divide up the roles. So then it was Betty Jackson Page 313 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) sort of the opportunity arose and Cooper’s asked me to go with them and it was sort of obvious that it would be an opportunity to start on our own. Because you know, I had bit of knowledge in how to do it, David would provide the money and the stability and then it gave him an opportunity to finally say to his family, we are going to do something together in England and I need out. So that’s what he did.

What had his role been within his own family company?

The division is, he has two older brothers and one younger one and they sort of divided it up according to their skills. I mean David was always the one I think who met people. The main man is his elder brother, Simon who is a brilliant entrepreneur and was really the leader of the gang. And there’s an older brother as well who really took the role of organisation and you know, goods coming and goods coming out and shipping and all of that stuff. Which is enormous when you’re dealing with thousands and thousands of products as they were doing, you know, I mean it was big stuff. And then a younger brother, Maurice sort of ran the accounts. So David was sort of somewhere in the middle, between Simon and Maurice really. You know, but they sort of organised things altogether, that’s the only thing I can say. I mean it’s still in existence, they still work together.

What’s it called?

Azar has actually retired, I’m sorry. It’s called Marseille Confort Cinq Mille and you know, they’ve diversified and they do property and they do furniture and they do you know, they’re very successful indeed.

So how difficult or not was it to sort of extricate himself from that and make the move?

I think it was incredibly difficult. They’re a very strong Jewish family and you know, and I am not Jewish, so there was a bit of a problem with that too, and I’m in another country and you know, nobody, not one of them actually could speak English or well, they can now actually, I’ve had a very good effect [laughing] I think on them all. But nobody had ever been to Great Britain at all, any of them, any of the family at all. Their roots are much Betty Jackson Page 314 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) more, they originated from Egypt and were ousted when Nasser kicked all the Jews out and ended up in the south of France, which is where they sort of started again. So it is one of those stories that they had nothing and they are incredibly successful now, due to hard work and personality, it’s fantastic really. So, and David of course still lived with his mother in the family home, along with his younger brother – and he has two sisters also, they married and had left home. So it was a very close, tight little family unit that suddenly, you know, I’d come into and I’m viewed with suspicion. So he came over here much more frequently I think, because it was easier and he announced that you know, we were going to do this thing together and there was a bit of a kerfuffle at the beginning. But I think David is a very strong person and they knew that they wouldn’t, once he’d made his mind up they wouldn’t be able to change it. I think that they were just nervous for him because it was a leap into the unknown for them, on lots of different levels. First of all, I wasn’t, I’m not Jewish and secondly you know, he’s going to a different country, different language, different business, different world, different everything. So I think that they were concerned for him in that respect, you know, which is normal genuine concern. But I have to say you know, once he’d said, actually this isn’t going to change, you know you either accept it or you don’t, and if you don’t then there’s a split. They have been incredibly supportive on a personal and professional level. I mean they are the most fantastic bunch of people and I can honestly say it’s been, it was fantastic. One of the funniest things was the introduction of my mother – my father had already died – but my mother, the introduction of my mother to his mother, which happened in the south of France. And we went down for the weekend and my mother practised the only phrase that she knew in French, taught by David, which was when she met his mother she would say, ‘Je suis enchanté de faire votre connaissance’, which actually means I’m very happy to meet you. And so she practised this for ages in the car and was very excited. And we got to the apartment and the maid opened the door and David’s mother stepped forward and said to my mother, ‘Je suis enchanté de faire votre connaissance’. And my mother said, ‘Oh no, I’m supposed to say that to you!’ Anyway, so there was a lot of, they couldn’t really communicate, but there was a lot of sort of goodwill there. I think my mother was completely in love with David, I mean partly because he was quite a striking sort of bloke and incredibly charming and you know, on his trips to the north to see her, he managed to charm the whole of the Conservative Association and the Rotary Group and all of that and went to bring and buys and you know, everybody thought he was so glamorous. So she Betty Jackson Page 315 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) was sort of very keen but, I suppose, and anxious that I would eventually, finally sort of settle down, I suppose. I suppose there was that thing as well. But anyway, so we had this audience where all of the Cohens sat round in a semi-circle, which was quite impressive and we sat opposite and there was lots of sort of smiles and nods. But eventually, you know, everybody wanted it to work, really, so there was an awful lot of goodwill on both sides.

How Jewish are they?

Very.

Orthodox?

Yeah, I mean, yeah I mean very, the whole family – David isn’t – but the whole family is really quite strong. I mean various members are stronger in the faith than others, but no, you know, they are very, they are very.

And how did you feel about that?

I don’t mind a bit. Whatever is your path, really. Their experience had led them there and it’s not my path, but that’s because I was born in a different culture.

Did David change his outlook or his way of living or anything in relation to that, as a result of meeting you?

I don’t know whether it was a result of meeting me – he was already questioning quite a lot of the dogma of the Jewish religion himself, personally and privately, so he was already taking steps to experience other things. Which I, which is entirely to do with David and not anything to do with anybody else and it’s independent of me also. We, my family are particularly strong Protestants and that was made clear at the beginning, both families – I mean I remember when I went to tell my mother that I’d met him, of course, because of course she knew my previous boyfriend very, very well and the parents knew each other and everything because we had been together for so long. And I remember going to say, Betty Jackson Page 316 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) you know, I’ve met this bloke and he’s French. And she said, ‘Oh darling, that’s lovely’ and then I said, and his name’s David Cohen. And she said, ‘Oh my goodness, what on earth must they think of you?’ And that was her first reaction. And she didn’t care a bit, I mean David does look very Jewish as well, he’s dark with a huge nose and big ears so, you know what I mean, he looks incredibly Jewish. But it hadn’t occurred to me at all and you know, it is that thing about it never mattered, it never entered into the scheme of things for us and in fact you know, we have subsequently respected both sides I think.

And his decision to move here and establish a business with you, now how, apart from the financing, what else did he do in relation to your business?

Very little at the beginning because of course he couldn’t speak English. I mean this was a big sort of barrier really. So you know, it was really very much a case of him, me discussing things with him and explaining things to him, but he had to learn it right from the beginning and you know also, he found it very, very different the way the English work from the French, but you’d have to ask him about that, he was never quite clear, but he says it’s very, very different. And, I mean I do remember the first time we went to see the bank manager and David had put in you know, this huge amount of cash in order to finance the first collection and the bank manager, because, I mean simply the fact that he was sitting there and he was male, the bank manager addressed all the remarks to David, which I subsequently translated, then David said back to me in French and I then translated them to the bank manager, which I really got quite annoyed about, but in any case [intermittent microphone noise starts] that was the deal. But the bank supported us immediately because you know, we had collateral from well-established customers, so we were sort of up and running like, you know we had to secure this loan that they gave us, but I had, we had bought a house by then, so that was collateral and David provided the rest. So it was a sort of, it was a risk. Everybody, I mean it was in the middle of a huge recession, I mean 1980, eighty-one was really quite depressed [intermittent microphone noise ends] and everybody said really, don’t do it, you know you’re really mad and our idea was that the only way is up and you know when you have something to say, as we did, I think it was, we didn’t take any notice of anybody.

Betty Jackson Page 317 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31)

You’ve referred to this a couple of times, this sort of flying in the face of advice, what sort of people were giving you this advice? Tony Levy, the accountant and generally you know, one knew that things were tough, that was obviously why Radley were scaling down, you know and subsequently closed. So you know, one was aware of, but you know again, this sort of arrogance, you think that well, that’s fine for everybody else but I’m different.

Can you remember what year Radley closed?

I can’t, actually. It was a couple of years after I left there.

So, who else said to you, don’t do this?

I think that that was the main, you know, the accountant, who I had known for many years at that point and you know, he had a successful business, he’d, from being an assistant somewhere he had set up on his own and was dealing with quite a lot of people in the rag trade. He was Lynne Franks PR, he was – sorry, accountant. He was, I don’t know if he was ever with Wendy, I think he was Wendy’s, yeah he was Wendy’s, so there were a lot of other similar businesses that he was dealing with, so he had experience and he obviously felt duty bound to say, this is a very tough thing that you’re going into.

And you went ahead with it all the same?

Yeah.

In what frame of mind?

Excited, enthusiastic.

But I mean these warnings didn’t deter you – why?

Betty Jackson Page 318 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31)

No, not really. I mean because I think that we thought, maybe we thought also that there was no alternative, maybe we thought that we couldn’t do anything else, maybe there was no other path. But we certainly weren’t deterred.

You could have perhaps applied for work with another…

A job. No, I’m basically unemployable I think. Always have been.

Or another fashion house?

People were, nothing interested me really. I mean Quorum really was the only place in Great Britain that had a named designer on the label. And that’s what I referred to I think before, about Radley’s vision. He was the only person who was doing that. Everybody else never spoke about, you know, it you were a designer you had two heads and no brain at all. I mean that was the general, it wasn’t until much later that our first female Prime Minister said design with a capital ‘D’. But as far as fashion was concerned, it was treated as very much a, I don’t know how anybody thought all of this stuff hit the shops at all, because it all had to be designed, but designers were kept very much in their place, you know. They were never celebrated at all, at all. It’s very, very recently that the Brits have got round to doing this. And they don’t really do it completely, they like to have a bit of a dig as well, they don’t celebrate it as other European cities do, or indeed the Americans.

The money that David put in, was that sort of his personal wealth?

Absolutely.

Now, what about the people who were working with you, the cutters and so forth, how had that, I mean did you take them with you from Quorum?

Yeah. We suggested, you know they obviously knew what I was going to do and we gave them several options you know, that they could or couldn’t because we said, obviously it’s a risk. There was a pattern cutter, Michael Hunt, who was with me at Quorum who was hugely helpful, you know could turn his hand to most things really. And you sort of relied Betty Jackson Page 319 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) on everybody mucking in together, really, rather than anything else. And there was another seamstress called Iris, who actually joined really in order to help as well, you know, not only be the seamstress, but do a little bit of the organisation as well. And there was Irene who was my first machinist at Quorum, who had actually retired from Quorum, retired and left and I dragged her out of retirement to come and work for me. So there were, maximum four people [laughs], and sometimes only three. And sometimes only two. So, we were a very small team and you know, but very small company, you know we started so, you know, the first season we had to just go and buy the fabric, get the patterns graded, find a small manufacturer, you know all of that sort of stuff. And we were really, we used to go to lunch often. [laughs]

Where?

The Soho Friend, which is a fantastic Chinese restaurant opposite. I mean wonderful place to work, Meard Street as well, in Soho, I mean it was fantastic, I mean we had a very jolly time, it was great. There was a brothel opposite, which was fantastic and they, all the transvestites there helped us lift the machines, you know, all done up to the nines in their gold clothes and they could lift a machine with one hand, they were all very nice indeed. And I remember, I think I was on the television or something and I got to work later on and they were all shouting out the window, ‘Oi, Betty, seen you on the box, love’, [laughs] you know, and it was all very, it was all great, it was all [intermittent microphone noise starts] great, good fun and you know, not at all frightening because we had such fun. And everybody, you know, wanted to do it, I suppose, it was exciting. I think the element of enjoyment was you know, ninety per cent of the whole thing, really. I’ve always been very keen on that. I don’t, I think it’s so stressful that you must enjoy your work, because if you don’t it’s really too hard. But there must be times when you have to really laugh right out loud, either at yourself or other people, it’s very important.

And how do you, how does that come about or how do you encourage it to happen?

Well I think by relieving people’s anxiety, by helping them not to worry about things. It’s about putting things in perspective. You know, I had, and fundamentally, you know going back, I mean not to be tragic in any way at all, but when you have had you know, a split Betty Jackson Page 320 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) second thing happen to you where fundamentally your life completely changes, which is what happened when I had the car accident, and it was a split second moment. You know and I can still relive it and think, if the steering didn’t go and if I’d carried on, my life would completely different. First experience. Second experience – if we’d tossed a coin and gone to Yugoslavia instead, I would never have met David and my life again would have been completely different. But if I hadn’t hit the tree in the first place, I wouldn’t have been in the situation to toss the… you know, so really, I am so aware of the elements of chance in anybody’s life. You know, you can plan so much, but actually you just don’t know what’s going to happen in the next five minutes. And I think that that really means, not that you don’t care, but you do get things in perspective. And I think I also must be, I think I must be a very optimistic person, you can have a problem one day, get up the next morning and actually think, well that’s what I have to do now. So I’m, I’ve never really been frightened of challenge because – and also you know, coping with a physical disability, I’ve obviously over-compensated for that all my life, you know wanting people to like me in spite of, wanting them to not take it into consideration. That’s a constant battle, you know that never goes away. So you know, I think anything else pales into insignificance really, I suppose and you know, the only thing that I would say is that you know, now we employ a few more people so there is a responsibility there now, but at the time when we started off, you know everybody knew that if it failed, it failed and we’d all go off and do something else. So there was no responsibility at all and so we had a very good time doing what we had to do.

You say the part that chance played, some people would say fate – does that figure at all in your…?

Well I think it’s the same thing, really. I think if there’s a master plan that’s written before, then it’s the same thing, you just call it something else.

But you expressed it as chance, which suggests…

I almost said fate, I almost said fate. I think that the words are interchangeable, really.

Betty Jackson Page 321 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31)

So the people who came with you, Michael and Iris and Irene, had they been directly employed by Quorum or…?

Yeah.

Because you said you were…

Oh I think Michael, no Michael was freelance and he did bits and pieces of theatre design and pattern cutting for other people so you know, the responsibility was not all mine. Iris came in and I think we paid her a salary right from the word go, so we you know, budgeted that in the amount of money that we asked for from the bank. And Irene also, but I think she was part-time, I don’t think she worked every day.

And you said you found a small manufacturer, who was that?

Oh, there were several. There were several who were around at the time. One was called Mr Yan , another one was Greek and, you know I can’t even remember how these people turned up. You know there were a few people who just did, you know. That’s how a lot of High Street merchandise was made, by small factory units.

And you used all of these, or one after the other – how did that work?

No, there were two or three that we used at the same time.

And how does it work in terms of the people that are in your employ and the manufacturer, I mean how does the collection as it were, evolve or the production evolve?

Well, the simple thing was that we had taken orders and, which we had taken manually and then I added them up, manually and we figured out manually how much cloth we needed to make them, we ordered the cloth, went and paid for the cloth, went to pick the cloth up, went to deliver it to north London to these small units where it was, with all of the trims – but don’t forget I’d already done that with Wendy to some extent, and so I Betty Jackson Page 322 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side A (part 31) knew how to do that and then gave them everything that they needed to make the garment and…

[End of Tape 16 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 323 C1046/10 Tape 16 Side B (part 32)

Tape 16 Side B [part 32]

…everything they needed to make the garment and then left them to it and they, we then either picked the delivery up on hangers and brought it back to Meard Street, or they delivered it to us.

So, just to clarify, the people in your little group, they make the prototypes do they, the things to be shown?

Yeah. We only made one of everything first and that was one size ten and then we sold it in a range of sizes.

And then these little companies make the quantities?

Absolutely.

[End of Tape 16 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 324 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33)

Tape 17 Side A [part 33]

This is Eva Simmons interviewing Betty Jackson, it’s Friday the eighth of April 2005, starting tape seventeen. And Betty, we left off the end of the last session just talking about the setting up of your business and the early days. I just wanted to ask you about the financial arrangements to begin with, you had a loan from the bank and David also put in money from his own pocket. Could you just say a bit more about what sort of sums were involved?

Well, it was slightly misleading to say we got a loan from the bank. David had, I mean he had available something like twenty grand or something that was his own money. I seem to remember it at that, which was a princely sum in those days, but we didn’t ever sort of open a bank account and put it in like that, he just paid for the setting up of the company and sort of made funds available really. Plus I sort of was independent financially because of working for some time and so I must, I mean there wasn’t a sort of situation where I needed to get a salary or, so we didn’t organise it like that at all and it was only after we had shown the first collection and actually got orders on it, I think I explained that before, that we then had orders of – well he would remember this, but I of course don’t – but I think we had about a hundred, hundred and fifty grand’s worth of orders in the first week. So we had to then go to the bank and finance the making of these orders. I remember very clearly that we did explain to everybody who placed an order that we would have to have a very quick turnaround with the money and so everybody agreed terms of either seven or ten days. So we sort of went along to the bank manager, which was the Nat West in Long Acre, who we knew was up to speed with what happened in the fashion industry and therefore would understand our situation, and we went along with these written signed orders and with the terms on it, so they were sort of, it was really not a high risk, provided that he believed that we would deliver the goods, make and deliver the goods, that we wouldn’t just run off with the money. But I think, I mean I think we must have been so passionate at that time anyway, still am, but you know then we must have been, you know passionate with a vision that they agreed. So what they did do was agree to a certain sum; we worked out exactly how much we needed and went to him and asked for that.

Can you remember roughly what that was? Betty Jackson Page 325 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33)

Well it must have been half of what the order book was, roughly, maybe a bit over, in order to buy cloth and just you know, have a bit. At the same time, in that first year, I received a call from Peter Simon of Monsoon who wanted me to go and do a bit of freelance work for him and he had heard that I had left Quorum and he’d obviously – because we got quite a bit of publicity in that beginning thing, because people sort of, in the trade sort of knew who I was and you know, and it was interesting and then I wasn’t, I mean everybody thought that I was a new young thing – well, I mean I was sort of fairly young, but I wasn’t straight out of college. Don’t forget, you know, I’d had a lot of experience by then, so you know, I could convince people that I was a sort of you know, a serious force I suppose, and it wasn’t really as if I had no knowledge of what was going to happen because I had been six years at Quorum and you know, quite a lot of things and been involved in the selling and all of that stuff. And previous to that, running a very small company with Wendy. So I suppose I wasn’t really so much of a risk, but certainly you know, it wasn’t an overnight success, I think I’d done my apprenticeship really. [laughs] So yes, so the bank came in, really rather readily, I have to say. But I think because we were two and because you know, David is, looks sort of believable as a businessman. I mean he looked much younger then, but he is believable as a businessman. Couldn’t speak any English at that time, but anyway, you know, I think they thought that there was a sort of feet on the ground attitude to it, really rather than anything else.

And what did you mean just now when you said a turnaround of seven to ten days?

Meaning that when, we would manufacture the goods and produce and deliver them at a certain delivery date specified by you know, the world really because that’s the seasonal delivery date, you deliver spring clothes at this time and you deliver winter clothes at this time, and sort of within seven to ten days of them checking the goods or whatever, then we needed the money. I mean often terms are thirty or sixty days, they’re often much, much longer these days, you become a private banker to most people nowadays, it’s shocking. But, because we said that we wouldn’t be able to accept their order unless they did that, that’s what they signed to. And I have to say that everybody did it, I mean when it came six months later to delivering everything, everybody was true to their word, you know, that was fantastic. Everybody tipped up with payment pretty damn quick and that was great.

Betty Jackson Page 326 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33)

So who else ordered besides Harrods?

Whistles, a shop in Edinburgh called – lovely shop in Edinburgh, Troon, lots of little independents. Nothing, abroad happened later, the Americans came in the second or the third season. So Harvey Nichols I think ordered. Quite a few people. Joanna’s Tent, which is now finished, but that was a big shop on the Kings Road. Miss Selfridge, which was a very different, it was a sort of designered label shop at that time, not, Beauchamp Place shop. There was a shop called Feathers. Lots of little sort of designer independent ones, a couple of shops up north, Pollyanna. No it was, we had maybe ten or fifteen clients for that.

And how much, if any, of a pattern was there to the sort of shops that were ordering from you? And were they they kinds of people that you expected?

Yes, I think they were. I think, I mean there was a sort of, it was a surprise how successful it was at the beginning. I sort of think it was because you know, there was very little choice for that sort of merchandise really, things that were slightly different but still you know, what you would say now, cutting edge and all of that. But nevertheless, you know, not too bizarre that you couldn’t wear them. So I suppose, I don’t think we had time to reflect, I think we were just surprised and pleased, and really rather relieved, obviously, that we’d kicked off with something. But you know, and again, I think in this arrogance of youth, you don’t expect anything less, probably. And I don’t think there were very many moments of doubt [laughs], which is shocking, but I don’t think, I really don’t think there were. I think you know, the excitement was, and we were just learning all the time. I think what we should have learnt, we were very complacent I think as well at that time, and certainly going on I think it would be a criticism that I would not relive, or would warn anybody else against. When you have success at the beginning like that, you sort of think it will go on forever, and of course it doesn’t. And for a long time we were absolutely passive about sales and marketing and would turn people away and turn things down rather than you know, make a thing of it, or indeed planned for the future. I think we thought the market wouldn’t change, well of course it did really rather drastically of course, you know, towards the middle, the end of the eighties it was, the dollar became one one and all of a sudden things changed and export and of course by that time our American business was Betty Jackson Page 327 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33) absolutely huge. And I think that we, I think we were very, very complacent about it, we always thought something, we never actively sought to sell the collection or indeed to market it in any way at all and I think that we probably did that.

When you say we?

Well David and I really, we were sort of in charge. We, you know, we gradually, I think I said that we had a basement from a friend in Soho in Meard Street, which was fantastic and we very quickly outgrew that and rented premises just down the road, just above the Angus Steakhouse in Oxford Street, which the entrance was on Hanway Street, which was, it’s a lovely little place. A big open plan room that you know, we had an office and we had stock and we had the cutting tables and everybody sort of worked in the same room and gradually the team increased and you know, and friends came to work for us really. You know, because it was good fun, it was good fun, there was you know, there was no, it was just, I think I must describe, it was good fun. [laughs] It was good fun. And yeah, it was great. We all, there was a huge friendly feeling I think, you know, everybody was in it together. There was, I mean I’ve always been against hierarchy anyway, but you know, and I think here we try and avoid it, you know, as well, even now. I’ve never understood the thing, because, and I think there was very much a feeling of we were all in it together and it was very new and we were all part of this thing that was happening, which was very exciting.

It sounds almost as if you were recreating something of the atmosphere that you had with Wendy.

Oh yes, I think, well given that Wendy and I were really just a two-man band, she had also gone on and you know, during the five years that I was at Quorum, she was really very successful and I think, I’m sure, I mean I think I had always thought that if I did it myself, that you know, atmosphere was very, very important, that I wouldn’t want ever people to dread coming to work. You spend so much of your time, it has to be a pleasurable thing, it has to be something that rewards you, doesn’t it and you know, the obvious rewards that I got out of it, I wanted other people to have as well. I think that was quite a big part of what we were trying to create, we were trying to make people part of it, rather than you Betty Jackson Page 328 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33) know, it was ours and you come in and do your part and then, piss off sort of thing really. But it was very much a, because we could do what we wanted, you know, we could do what we wanted. It was an extraordinary situation really. It was, the order book was full and it got fuller and fuller and fuller as we went on. We could do no wrong really, it’s a shocking thing.

And you say ‘we’ all the time, were you and David absolutely of like mind in everything?

Well I think he learnt quite a lot, but I mean our personal relationship was obviously you know, very strong and I think we wanted to be part of every bit of each other’s lives. And I was vaguely aware of the commitment he had and also the sacrifice that he was making and if you, I mean he’s a very straightforward man really, but once he decides to do something he is absolutely a hundred per cent committed. And I think I was, you know, aware of his rather easy life that he had in the south of France with a family company that was incredibly successful and yet he was prepared to come and live in another country, learn another language and start something that was alien territory to him. He had no knowledge at all of the fashion industry, he’d absolutely no knowledge at all and he was prepared to launch into something that he knew nothing about. And so in the beginning it was very much me telling him how things worked, or explaining situations and then him responding you know, or agreeing or disagreeing. I mean I have to say that you know, that honestly, probably the first five years we had the biggest rows over things that we didn’t agree on at all, but I think because our personal attachment was so strong, we knew we would have to sort it out. Because both of us knew that whatever happened, you know, we’d still be together and I don’t think that ever, nothing other than that crossed our minds. So I suppose if you’re, I mean that must be some sort of position of strength to start with, even when you know, you’re in your deepest gloom, your blackest hole and whatever, and you haven’t spoken to each other for three days or whatever, you know, there was never any question that we would split. I don’t know why that is, I’ve no idea why that is, it’s just you know, the way I’m made and the way he’s made, so whatever happened we had to sort it out. I think that he would say that the English do things very, very differently from the French. I think his, he had a knowledge of a business that you never really touched the product, so that was very new for him, you know, he had to be involved in all aspects of making a piece of clothing, which is very different from Betty Jackson Page 329 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33) importing an electrical goods and selling them on, which is what he was used to doing. So, there was a, you know, we were not selling fridges, we were not selling televisions, we were selling almost an aesthetic, we were selling a dream, we were selling you know, something aspirational, we were you know, so there was a lot more emotion involved than I think he was initially prepared for. But anyway, we’re still here so it must have worked out somehow. [laughs]

What sort of things did you row about?

Oh, we rowed about personnel, we rowed about situations, we rowed about what we should do about, in certain situations, we, you know, little things and big things I think.

Can you give any examples?

D’you know I can’t remember anything offhand. It’s really bizarre, but I can’t remember – he used to get very annoyed about the way people dealt with things. You know, the English he always thought had a much more relaxed attitude to everything than the French do and he always said that the French are much more rigid about rules and regulations and bureaucracy. I don’t know whether it’s because they’re a republic or not, I don’t know, but, and the only thing that I you know, say, not about parking regulations or anything to do with driving. But he never understood the English relaxed attitude, or the fact that you could – he hated people changing their mind, he thought that if you’d set yourself on a course then you should follow it to the end, regardless of circumstances. And you know, I think the way the English do business is always, yes you agree in principle, but then you know, the parameters may shift a little to accommodate certain things as you go along and you discover. David never understood that, he was always completely rigid, what was done was done and you know, if you agreed that, then you know, why two weeks later are the rules changing. And he, and flaky people he never understood and fashion is full of flaky people, really. [laughs] And so there was a sort of madness there that he had to accept. I mean don’t forget, he’d come from quite a rigid family and quite a sort of strict family and quite a, I mean he had lived a sort of glamorous life merely geographically I think, but, and obviously had had this sort of mad youth. But nevertheless, he was quite, he came from quite a controlled situation and into the madness of you know, what was Betty Jackson Page 330 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33) happening also in London at that time. You know, young designers and music was great and art was great and theatre was great and film was great and it was just, London was very vibrant. I mean even after what had happened in the sixties, I think you know in the eighties there was a sort of, it was not so localised, it seemed to be a little bit more international. I mean it’s even more so now with this sort of next wave of successful design that has happened. I mean they’ve happened immediately on a global scale, whereas I think in the sixties it sort of felt very local, but then when we got going it was a little bit wider and with you know, people like Alexander McQueen and Julien MacDonald, you know, it’s immediately global. There’s a progression there, which is good.

And what sort of things did or do people change their minds about that would sort of be different from the way things were done in France?

I suppose the way either things were finished off or the way, almost I mean I suppose it’s, what he always hated was compromise, I think that’s really what it was about. And you know, if you hadn’t given yourself enough time or you hadn’t – I don’t know, I mean I’m being specific about something that is very vague, so I can’t really say a specific thing, but there was a general feeling that he actually mistrusted the ability of the English to deliver. That’s in broad terms, I don’t mean to deliver goods, but he mistrusted the English attitude.

So who would it be, I’m sorry to press this, but I’m trying to understand what you’re getting at because it’s interesting in itself as a sort of reflection on the fashion world and the culture – would it be the buyers, would it be the staff, who, you know, would it be, journalists?

Staff and buyers. Also I mean I think that he would also say that he was in a tricky position really. Because first of all, it was my name on the label and he, I mean I couldn’t have done it, I couldn’t have done it without him, I mean I would have had to do it with somebody else anyway, so he, whatever we did we decided to do together, we didn’t, I mean when the company was drawn up, I’m sure it’s drawn up fifty-fifty, absolutely straight down the middle and you know, and we don’t have any, there are no boundaries in Betty Jackson Page 331 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33) which bits, except it has sort of settled into he runs a certain bit of it and I run the other and we don’t really interfere and even if we disagree, we would now actually say well, this is your bit, do it but don’t get into a mess, and vice versa, I would say exactly the same. And both of us still make huge mistakes there. But at that time, because – I mean really I think it was a lot to do with his lack of English actually, you know, because he couldn’t speak English, I translated most things for him. The other thing was that he wasn’t, I mean he didn’t actually come and live here until two years after that full-time, so he was this figure that arrived, you know on Thursdays and left on Monday nights and you know, and things like that. And came in and saw and did, and so I think a lot of it was to do with me having to pass on all this information for him, he couldn’t get it firsthand. I mean even you know, the first meeting with the bank manager, I remember the bank manager addressed most things to David which then I had to translate into French, David replied to me in French and I translated them into English to the bank manager. So you know, there were lots of situations like that with suppliers, with – but also he, I mean I sort of knew what I was doing, I knew what had to be done because I’d experienced it, so he, there was an awful lot he had to leave to me. Now, when you’re running a thing together and you’re learning, I mean I think that that puts an enormous strain, psychologically, on it, because he for a while was I think regarded as this rather shadowy figure, you know, and he was my boyfriend. And so I think there was a point where he had to establish himself as you know, David Cohen in his own right and these were his parameters and this was what he controlled and this was what he was responsible for. So there was, you know when, I mean he finally went to Berlitz, the school [laughs], to try and learn English conversation. And gradually as that got better, he then had to assert himself and no longer be this you know, this bloke in the background, although he would say he’s always been the bloke in the background I think. But I think a lot of the tussles were to do also with him thinking psychologically I must assert my influence here, because otherwise I won’t be in control of what happens next. And I don’t think he, I mean I’m not saying that in a bad way, I’m saying that in a positive way. I think he definitely felt he had to do that. And he did it quite successfully. Having said that, he did it with lots of people’s backing, but he actually pissed a lot of people off at the same time. That’s quite normal I think. And so that was the situation for the first sort of three or four years; we were coping with huge success, we sort of knew roughly what we were doing, we had no idea about the longevity of it, we were sort of going blindly on, really I think. And I think that he always felt fearful for the Betty Jackson Page 332 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side A (part 33) future, much more than I did. But I think that that’s also true, there was so much he could control, but ultimately, I mean he still says now, you know, if the collection’s good or bad I have to pick the pieces up, which he does. You know, if we do a terrible collection one year and we have bad sales, he still has to sort it out, you know. If it’s a great collection, if we have great sales, you know they fluctuate, season on season, he still has to sort it out. You know what I mean? He sort of has to pick the pieces up after every one, which is a very difficult role to play I think.

[End of Tape 17 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 333 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34)

Tape 17 Side B [part 34]

How did he, who did he piss off, how did he do that?

I think that they thought… who did he piss off? I think, well I mean, I think people who were then in charge of the British Fashion Council, I think people – it wasn’t really that he pissed them off, it was just that he actually questioned, you know. He wanted to know why this had to be like this. He wanted to know if there was a good reason, he would only go forward with something if there was a good reason and if it worked for us. And so, you know whereas things that I wouldn’t have taken notice of, he would fight for or against, depending on you know, what was right for us.

For example?

Where we showed, conditions we showed in, where we wanted to put our name, who we wanted to sell to, who we didn’t want to sell to, what we did about expansion, what we did about – policy decisions, I suppose, you know. That sounds rather grand, but, no all that sort of thing.

Was there any pattern to the differences?

No. Completely random.

So I mean was it just that he wanted to be more certain in advance than you, or…?

I think he needed to be more certain than I was. Partly because of his lack of experience in the fashion world, I mean, you know I never – because I’d lived it since I was a student. You know, I had observed it or been involved in it, you know, since you know, for a long, long time compared to him. And most of my friends were involved in it, so you know, he came to London and met you know, this group of very creative individuals who were all you know, busy doing something fabulous [laughs]. I mean not necessarily to do with fashion, but certainly you know, to do with film or music or art or something, and I think Betty Jackson Page 334 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34) that he had to get to grips with quite a lot, really. And as I say, I think you know, a lot of it was just sort of saying, okay, I am here, this is me, this is what I think.

And how did people react to him, sort of putting his stamp on things?

Well they either accepted it or they didn’t. You know, I mean a lot of people found him absolutely charming and delicious and a lot of people found him completely difficult. It’s like that with anything, really isn’t it.

And how did you then sort of split the responsibilities, you said he had his, he came to have his sphere and you came to have your sphere – how did that work out?

Well that was when we moved premises again to, we found, we needed bigger premises because it was growing and growing and growing, and from this sort of one room, one big room in Hanway Street, we obviously had to find somewhere separate for production because we were by then producing quite a lot of clothes and you know, there was a lot of noise going on as well and you know, it was all a bit chaotic. So we then moved to – well, he found the building, he found this fantastic building in Tottenham Street, really quite by accident. He was, he always – it’s quite funny really, he still does it – he always, the French always stop for lunch, I mean shops close in France for lunch, it’s really bizarre [laughs], it’s quite extraordinary, but anyway, the sacred hour of lunch. Which is really quite sensible, I have to say, but anyway. So he used to sort of go off, because we were right by Soho and Goodge Street and all of that, Fitzrovia, fantastic restaurants and things. I never did this, he never understood this, you know, I used to sort of try and join him at some point, but actually you know, it was really impossible. I preferred to sort of have a sandwich at my desk, or whatever, you know in a rather boring English way. And he just sort of went, he used to walk around Soho, walk around Fitzrovia a lot and he came across this building and rang me and said, there’s a building that says ‘lease’ and it says ‘to let’ and then it says ‘lease’ on another board, does that mean we get the whole thing? I said, ‘Yes it does’, so he said, ‘Well, I think I’ve found it’. And so anyway, so sorry we were talking about one thing, so we then converted this building on Tottenham Street, which was a fabulous little building, absolutely fabulous little building. And we were suddenly on three floors; basement for stock, ground floor for office and admin and upstairs for Betty Jackson Page 335 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34) design. And so we were then split, he suddenly had an office, his own office and I had my desk in another part of the building. And so that’s when really it started to divide up much more. Needed to do that because there was by then a lot of admin going on that I think he then put order in this chaos and sorted it, so he really became you know, decision maker on a lot of things, on the organisation of the thing. I mean I remember right at the beginning – I mean I was rather sort of wet in those days about, you know because a lot of people who were working before who were actually friends of ours and he, one of his observations when he was still in France was actually that you know, we should actually really get some sort of hours going and you know, the office should be open normal hours. Because everybody used to turn up at different times and everybody had keys and it was all rather sort of nice and easy and we’d all have a drink before we went home at night and you know, some people liked to go at five and other people stayed till seven thirty and it was just all very relaxed. And then friends used to drop in and blahdy blah and it was, you know, we’d be there sometimes till nine or ten at night. And he said you know, the first thing you need to do is actually say to everybody, you must work between at least nine thirty and six. And I was dead against this and said, no, no, no, it’s absolutely fine. And I think it was actually because I was rather nervous of putting – this was stupid, it sounds completely stupid now – but anyway, he absolutely insisted and you know, and said to everybody - this before we moved to Tottenham Street – and he said to everybody that he wanted to talk to everybody and he gathered everybody round the desk and my heart was in my mouth and I thought everybody’s gonna walk out and… and in fact, everybody, and he said it so charmingly as well, that everybody said yes, brilliant idea, of course we must do this, this is when everybody else works, yes we’re going to do this and get everything done between nine thirty and six. If everybody wants to have a drink afterwards or go for a drink, you know socialise afterwards, that’s also fine, but quite right, we must grow up here. You know, and he was right. And that happened often, I would be nervous about something that he wanted to put into place, and stupidly so, you know because I got involved in the emotional aspect rather than the professional aspect, I think. He had much clearer vision at the beginning. So in fact I can’t say that I, well I mean if I’d been against everything that he’d done, I mean we wouldn’t still be here, obviously. So even the things that he’s done that I initially was nervous about, I would say usually come up trumps. You know, he has a sort of lateral thinking mind which is better.

Betty Jackson Page 336 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34)

And how long was the move and then also this decision to sort of regulate hours and so forth, after the basement in Meard Street?

I think we were about a year, a year and a half in Hanway Street, maybe two years in Hanway Street and then we – but then you see we bought the building in Tottenham Street. We were about to sign on a rental agreement, which was a much bigger place, just off Percy Street, which is in the same area, a much bigger modern building, and literally David went on this particular walk up Goodge Street and Tottenham Street the day before we were about to sign and found this building and I mean otherwise we would have signed for rental, but we… so we were doing very well, you know, we bought a building for goodness’ sake. You know, I mean we got a mortgage on it, but at least we had money for a deposit, we had you know, money to pay the mortgage, we had, we obviously were doing really quite well. We drove a big fat BMW, had a, you know, I mean it was great.

Is Meard Street the same as Hanway Street?

No. Meard Street was before. Meard Street was that friend of mine whose basement we painted white. We then moved into Hanway Street, which was the big open plan, which we also went in and cleared out and painted white.

How long after…?

And then we were in Hanway Street for about eighteen months, two years.

I mean how long after you started the business was it before you moved?

I think we must have moved, I think it must have been about 1984, eighty-five.

So you were in Meard Street for about three or four years?

No, no, no. We were in Meard Street only for six to nine months. We then moved to Hanway Street for a couple of years and then we bought Tottenham Street.

Betty Jackson Page 337 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34)

And back for a moment to your first collection, these twenty-four pieces or whatever they were – was there any pattern to what people were ordering?

Oh gosh, I’ve no idea. I’ve no idea. Pattern - I mean we, there were, no they ordered, I really can’t answer that. I have, there was no, I wasn’t struck by any pattern because if, because also I’m not a merchandiser, I wasn’t coming at it from that point of view, I think. I mean we sat and wrote the orders and you know, in this duplicate book and you know, it was all very exciting really. I’ve no idea whether there was any pattern.

I just wondered whether there was any point at which you said, oh people like this more than that, so maybe I’ll do more of these.

No, no, no. I never, and I still don’t make that judgement, it’s terrible really. I mean I get rather annoyed if something that I particularly like in a collection has been a complete disaster and will persist rather bullishly about doing it again, you know, because I’m so convinced that people haven’t understood it. And often, I mean often that is the case, or they haven’t understood it because of our failings, because we haven’t done it properly. So you know, we often have another go at things. But that’s entirely me, I, my assistants will happily let something go. Be sad for a minute, but then move on to the next, but I’m, if I’m convinced about a shape that hasn’t been taken up, I will doggedly go on at it. [laughs]

Again, can you give an example?

No, but there’s been many over the years that you know, that really – and they emerge and I think you can hear people [laughing] groaning about it. So, they do, ‘God, no, she’s not there again on that tack’, yeah, it’s a funny thing. There’s certain things that actually one likes personally and you know, you can’t even, even as a designer you can’t entirely remove yourself from that. I mean a lot of it is to do with personal choice, you know especially in a company that we run and it bears my name, you know, it should be about my personal choice shouldn’t it, so it is.

Betty Jackson Page 338 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34)

And again, back to the original buyers – I asked you if there was any sort of pattern to the type of you know, Troon and Harrods, the shop in Scotland and so forth, Edinburgh, you know in your mind, it has to do with the kind of market that you appeal to as well. I just wondered if you could say a bit more about that?

Yeah. No, I mean there was, there must have been a little sort of group of designer shops that people like Wendy were selling to also, and who else was there – Bruce Oldfield and Jasper Conran and you know, there was a whole sort of group of us. Roland Klein, Caroline Charles, Catherine – I mean they were sort of much more established and rather sort of classic, but then we came into the category of Katharine Hamnett and Bodymap and you know, and all of those sort of people, so there was a sort of, really a you know, there must have been a type of shop that would, went in for this sort of thing, really.

Can you say a little bit more about what characterises those sort of clothes and also what made yours distinct, because you said earlier, you know, you were different.

Well I think it’s very difficult to describe one’s own style. I know what I like, but I can’t, I mean it amazes me that each collection is different. I mean we’re surrounded here by you know, very, very early pictures of you know, what it was and then you know, pictures that are really much more recent and I would have difficulty saying, well is it easy, is it relaxed, is it, you know, is it… I can’t describe, it is whatever it is and I can’t really describe my style, except the only thing that’s always, and I’ve always felt very strongly about it, I never ever want to see a woman as a victim, I always want her to be free in what she wears and feel confident and comfortable because I think that that’s the only way. I think that’s much more attractive, I think it’s much more sexy, I think it’s you know, everything good about a woman then. I also never want to submerge somebody’s personality, I think you know, lots of different people wear my clothes and they all wear them in very different ways. I mean you only need to go through this place and there’s twenty-one year olds and there’s fifty-five year olds and everybody in between, who all wear things in a different way. So they wear things, they choose those things and they wear them to suit their own personality. That has always been fundamental really, to our sort of look. It became very unfashionable to be comfortable of course in the mid eighties when all the power dressing and stuff was going on and I think I definitely lost my way there, because I couldn’t relate Betty Jackson Page 339 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34) to anything that was going on or being supported by the press or any of that. I still wanted easy, relaxed things and easy, relaxed and comfortable – this word comfortable – became very unfashionable. And people started to use things like, words like sharp and cutting edge and where we had been, suddenly this wasn’t, there was a sort of little, there was a sort of movement against all of that, it went very, pencil skirts and big shoulders and nipped in waists and all of that, you know, the power suit. Which I absolutely didn’t ever understand, it was all to do with you were dressing to please your man, which is another thing I’ve never ever understand, I think you should please yourself absolutely definitely first. So to say that there’s a look, I can’t think, because I do think it changes and I think the things are much better now, whatever better means, I think they’re much more thought out, I think quality is better, I think they’re, the collections are much better now than they were even ten years ago, I mean let alone at the beginning. So I think the clothes are whatever it is, they have to be for now. I think we are, I hope we are responding to you know, social and political external effects really, that’s what designers should do. And to say it is a rigid you know, oh I do long skirts, I don’t do long skirts; I do short skirts, I do pencil skirts, I do circle skirts, I do, you know, we do, so I don’t know what the answer is. People often say, what’s your look – it’s easy and comfortable, it is always easy and comfortable, but it’s not for shrinking violets, you have to know, you know you have to be fairly confident I think to wear some of our things. But lots of people do it, so we must be doing something right.

And better, how?

They’re more thought out, the fabric’s nicer, they’re better made, the quality’s much better, they’re, the fit is better, the sizing is better. You know, we have spent quite a lot of time on that.

Why is that, all those different kinds of improvements?

Well I think some of it is actually when you realise, when you’re aware of I suppose the world that you’re in, or the competition that there is, or what other, what your peer group are doing or indeed what other suppliers are doing. I mean for a long time at the beginning we, one of the most important things that we were doing was putting paintings on to cloth Betty Jackson Page 340 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34) and using them as prints. Partly because I met a group of people called The Cloth who were a group of four people who were working together – this was early on, this was 1983ish, four – and they were all just out of college and they were all sort of really fine artists in their own right and I went to see at college, end of year show and there was this huge piece of fabric which was the most wonderful piece of fabric, but it was a painting, but he’d painted it on to fabric. I just thought it was the most stunning thing and that really stuck. And because of Quorum, who had a history of prints because of Celia Birtwell and, I wasn’t ever frightened of prints and I knew the places that I could get prints done. So this guy was called Brian Bolger , I mean he’s still painting a bit and doing computer art now, I think. He, I mean it was on a massive scale, this painting and it looked like you know, a Howard Hodgkins or, it was the most beautiful colours and the most beautiful shapes and drawn, you know in this sort of wild way. Anyway.

Abstract?

Abstract, yeah. So, went to talk to him and said I’d really like to you know, put your painting on cloth and that was the start of it happening and our collaboration went on for several seasons. And in fact, he married my then assistant, so there were things happening there.

Which one?

She was called Anita, one of my first assistants. And he, and it was incredibly successful because nobody else was doing it at all. And the idea was that not only did you get this wonderful pattern, but also because of the size of the pattern, every single garment that you cut out was different, whereas if you had seen patterned things before, if you had a leaf it was always on your left shoulder. Every single size you bought, the leaf would be on your left shoulder and you know, so the point was that whatever you bought, it was individual to you, there would never be another skirt or another shirt like this thing. So, we, I think we were probably one of the first to do that and the prints were a huge part in the beginning, of our success. I also met a couple called Timney Fowler who were a husband and wife team, who were also doing extraordinary things with print at that time, largely monochrome, largely black and white, but you know, it just involved brushstrokes on a Betty Jackson Page 341 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34) canvas. And it was sort of partly to do with you know, I really think that painting is a finer art than fashion, I suppose. [laughing] So it was obviously I think, probably on my part, trying to get in on something that I thought was more proper. [laughs] And so between us I think that we did extraordinary things with cloth and it was all printed up in a place in Macclesfield and we did thousands and thousands of metres there. But as with everything, I think that that was one of my first – no it wasn’t my first award, we’re going on to talk about awards – I got an award sent in Italian by the Italian Council of Fabric Makers, or whatever it is, and it all came in Italian and I couldn’t understand it and I didn’t actually even bother to get it translated, but anyway somewhere in Milan I was given this award that I didn’t turn up for. And it was an extraordinary time, you know, everybody used to wait to see the print for the next season, everybody – and they had huge success retail-wise too. So it was a large part of what we were doing. Now, as with everything, people then observed this and as time goes on, they also, other people pick up on this and think that this is a very good thing to do and then people started to do it really much better than we did, and so I fell out of love with print for quite a long time and what we were doing became, I think, not as new and not as, certainly not as exciting and it took me a long time to get over print, really. Having been so in love with it and so keen on it, I think I then had had absolutely enough of print and pattern and, although you know, the reputation stayed for such a long time, it was really very difficult to get rid of, [laughs] that Betty Jackson did big printed shirts. But it was a revolution when we did it, it was, I remember the winter show that we did Brian Bolger’s print. I remember we had the front cover of nearly every Sunday supplement.

What year?

Must have been eighty-five, eighty-six, somewhere round there. Maybe a little bit earlier. And it really was extraordinary, you know, there were huge big swathes of cloth everywhere and you know, the colours were fabulous, I mean, and really nobody else was doing – I’m sounding very pompous.

What sort of colours?

Betty Jackson Page 342 C1046/10 Tape 17 Side B (part 34)

Well everybody always said that you did red and yellow, but I think we probably did do red and yellow. There was, one was red and yellow and black and the other one was sort of a beautiful royal blue and khaki green and brown. I mean the colours were spectacular, I think. And then we went on to print on other cloths and then you know, Viyella got involved and we printed on Viyella which nobody had done before and you know, there was another award we got, which was great. And so I think, I think what was exciting at that time was always you know, that’s why I say that the clothes are not for shrinking violets, because these huge bold patterns were, you know, you had to be something to carry it off, but you know, everybody wore them, it was really extraordinary.

And in what way did then people, you said later on people did it better – in what way were they better?

Oh well, you know, then print became a bit of a thing and if you remember, George Davis started Next in 1986 and there was big movement on the High Street and people started to sort of take notice a little bit. There was a revolution on the High Street from 1986, I think really, to do with George Davis.

[End of Tape 17 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 343 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35)

Tape 18 Side A [part 35]

Good in what were – I mean you said the next sort of…?

Well then bold prints became all over the place, you know and people were doing the sort of patterns that we were doing and it was very quickly, either copied or a version of done. And when something takes over to such an extent, you know – it’s a little bit like what’s happening now, print is huge again, you know, in all aspects really of, you know, print on print and it will fall off a cliff, you know, really will, then it will go back to being the full circle. So there was a sort of reaction against, quite rightly you know, because everybody had had enough of it and we certainly had.

But why were other people’s prints better than yours?

Well I don’t know whether they were better, they were, I felt you know, we had made this statement about putting paintings on cloth and that was the thing that we used to talk about and it wasn’t, you know, I wasn’t interested in other sorts of pattern. That was very much the way we looked at pattern, the way we chose the prints for the next season, the way we you know, it was to do with a drawing or a brushstroke on canvas and you were wearing this piece of art. That was what carried the whole thing through. Then I suppose you know, just as, you know collections move on, just as you develop with what’s going on around you, you can’t sustain that for a long period of time. You sustain it till it’s run its course and until you feel that there is for you no more creativity to be had on that road. So I think we had exhausted it, really. And as I said, the market was then flooded with drawings and brushstrokes and goodness knows what, you know, it became – I mean I’m not saying that we were responsible for that at all, but you know, suddenly pattern was happening in a big way. You know, and I think people weren’t frightened any more, whereas when we had started to do it, there really wasn’t very much, you know. Liberty lawns and Bernard Nevill had been doing his beautiful landscape prints, but it was all very controlled really, whereas we you know, tore off a piece of paper and did it on a much grander, more, freer way I think. So I think it ran its course. Now when something like that happens that has been such a driving force and such an economically important bit of one’s creative endeavour, I suppose, and when that is sort of removed – I know I felt not Betty Jackson Page 344 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35) confident about it at all, there was a sort of bit that felt it had been cut out and I think for a while, you know, I didn’t have anything to replace it with. I mean that’s, for me, you know as any sort of artist, I didn’t know what I wanted next. So that was a tricky time. Also I’d got, by that time I think I’d got two children under eighteen months. [laughs] So as far as creativity was concerned, you know, it sort of went out the window a little bit during that time.

This coincides with the power dressing period?

Mm.

Well, we’ll come on to that. I just want to ask you a little bit more – you’d done your first collection, it was a big success. At what point did you get the award, I believe Separates Designer of the Year, was that…

[both talking together]

Yeah, the first one.

…the first prize that you got, the first award?

That was early on, that was with, I think that was with the second collection, but yeah, it was… I had no idea and it was sponsored by Woman magazine I think. And this was the sort of first award ceremony I think that then turned into the Designer of the Year which is now, you know, been going for a while now. But this was the first award ceremony that there’d been at all I think, for fashion. And I remember Jeff Banks presenting it and there were a few of us up for it and I won it, which was a bit of a surprise really.

Who else was up for it?

I think Wendy was, I think Jasper was, I think Bodymap were, I think Katharine was, I think… probably those people.

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Why do you think it went to you?

Dunno. [laughs] Dunno, lucky I suppose, really. I don’t know. At that time we were certainly, we were certainly the most successful of all of these people, not – I mean leaving Katharine out, because she was sort of on her own and she was also at that time I think involved with the Italian company Goldie, so her situation was different. But certainly of all of our you know, designer led run companies, I think we were the most successful. We used to, I mean simply as far as our order books were concerned, we were the most successful. And I don’t know really why, either, but anyway, that was the situation at the time. We were part of this group called the Individual Clothes Show, we were showing in a group of people, which we eventually had to leave because it really got ridiculous, because there were – and I say this in a sort of embarrassed way, rather than anything else – I mean there used to be a queue waiting to get into our bit and everybody else’d be you know, and that was a sort of rather, I mean I am embarrassed about it thinking back, I’m not sure whether I was embarrassed at the time, because we were just too busy. But I’m sure that people wondered why, I’m sure that people you know, I know, remember when we used to talk to the organisers, there were a lot of people who wanted to have the stand next door to us, you know, expecting it to rub off, which of course it obviously doesn’t, I mean that’s… [laughs] But we were very successful at that time, it had gone big, really.

How did you feel about all that?

I think I was pleased. I mean I think we were delighted. I think again, whilst you’re in a situation like that, you maybe, you know, it’s only with hindsight that you can reflect and you know, it’s only looking forward to something that you can imagine. But when you’re absolutely in the situation at that time, you have no idea, you have no idea that you’re part of something, you have no idea what your impact is, you have no idea, you know, what the ripples are, really. I think the thing that we had to do at that time was sort of, it was just business, I mean a lot to do, there was a lot to do. We worked so hard. We worked long hours, we worked, we worked really hard and that’s what we did, you didn’t sort of think about anything else, you didn’t step back and think, gosh, how fabulous are we. There was never time to assess like that. So I suppose you know, awards, quite nice, you know, Betty Jackson Page 346 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35) because at least somebody else is saying you know, oh, by the way, these are fabulous, these are good, these are…

Well and also having just come into the business and – well not come into the business, but come into your own business and then being chosen above all these household names, people like Katharine Hamnett and, had been around for ages.

New kid on the block, I suppose, partly you know. Maybe they just, maybe there was just a buzz about us at that time, I don’t know. I don’t know.

But for you?

Yeah, I mean, I remember when it happened I was really quite cross because [laughs] the only thing I can remember are these, must have been six or eight girls coming on wearing stuff and they all had their hats on the wrong way. And I was so furious [laughing] about it, that that was the only thing and I was cross, you know, when I went to go up on to the stage. That was the only thing I could think of. God dammit, they’ve got them back to front, or something, you know, I just remember the feeling that I was furious and I thought, well why didn’t I do that, why was I not backstage, why did somebody not do that properly. I was furious about that, so I had no time to be [laughs], it’s a silly thing.

And what about the implications of winning an award like that?

I’m not sure whether that happens, I mean you know, people do say, I don’t think we saw any visible difference, I think it was a, you know, bit of press happened, but as far as we were concerned we didn’t have, we didn’t take any notice of it. And like I said, we were horribly blasé about the success, I think we thought it would go on forever. Shocking.

So you were still at that point, just in Meard Street?

No, no, no. We’d moved by then.

You’d moved? Betty Jackson Page 347 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35)

We had moved by then. I think we must have been in Hanway Street, or we were just about to move to Tottenham Street.

And what precipitated each of those moves?

Just need for more space.

And at that point, did you, is that, did your friend whose basement it was continue to be involved in the business?

No, not at all. He wasn’t at all, he just lent us a room.

‘Cos he’d been your solicitor, hadn’t he?

Oh yes, he was still that, yeah.

And continued to be?

Yeah.

So what was Hanway Street like compared with Meard Street?

Big, huge. I mean Meard Street was a tiny room, I mean a tiny, tiny, tiny room. If we all got up and moved around, we all bumped into each other in Meard Street. I mean there were three of us in Meard Street, but we weren’t there all the time. Hanway Street we got, a friend of mine had come in to ostensibly be the secretary, you know, we had a fulltime pattern cutter, we had a fulltime machinist in Hanway Street too, who was Irene who had come back, I’d got her out of retirement, who’d come back to work with us. I had an assistant, a student assistant and we had a production manager too, who you know, handled production.

What did the place look like? Betty Jackson Page 348 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35)

It was just a big white space. You went up, it was on the first floor, you went up this sort of funny little staircase and…

What sort of building?

Well it was a sort of, on the top of, actually it overlooked Oxford Street. It was a long, I suppose quite a modern building. It wasn’t old and funny, it had been refurbished so the staircase – I don’t think there was another floor on top of us, I can’t remember whether, I think we were, I think it’s actually two storeys, but actually when I think about Oxford Street it goes up and up and up so there must have been, the staircase must have gone past – but funny little dog’s leg staircase and you, then with a door that you went into and the room was sort of lengthways in front of you going out over to Oxford Street, which was a huge window over Oxford Street, the light was fantastic there which was great, because Meard Street was very dark because we were in a basement, you used to see people walking above the skylight. And so the light was fantastic and it was all one room, which was a sort of huge sort of L-shaped room, big wide room, and so we had you know, pattern cutting table down where the light was and the machines where the light was as well and then you sort of walked through, there was a big desk in the middle, which was a desk where I sat and where the secretary sat and where you know, we all sort of sat round with a telephone, and a diary. And then where, and then there was a sort of toilet and a kitchen off to the right. So it was nicely self-contained really, I mean it was nicely self-contained. No showroom, nowhere to put the collection. We’ve never really been very good at that, there isn’t a showroom here and when we moved to Tottenham Street we thought that we would have and we did have for a time, but then we ran out of space and it became somebody’s office. We’ve never been very good at that.

[break in recording]

Lovely sort of friendly, easy atmosphere that you described earlier, did that survive?

Oh for a long time, yeah, yeah. It certainly went all the time in Hanway Street. It was, yes, we jealously guarded that. I mean you know, for a long time you know, we were very near Betty Jackson Page 349 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35)

Berwick Street market for example, so somebody would go off and you know, buy things from Berwick Street market and we’d have lunch all together you know, and everybody just put in you know, couple of quid and we just had lovely tomato salad and fruit and bread and cheese and we’d just sit all round together and you know, and chat. So there was very much a feeling of you know, this is a nice easy, good fun place to be and what we were doing, I think it must be external circumstances that cause the problems, really. If you could cut yourself off from everything, but then I suppose then the stakes got higher and, I think actually that I should also mention, there’s a very important bit – I mentioned it before, but we glossed over it. But I got a call from this guy Peter Simon, who was head of Monsoon, who wanted me to design a collection, and we were talking on the other, on the first tape about the money, you know, David had limited funds obviously, I mean and I just had what I’d got in my bank account which really wasn’t very much and he asked me if I would consider doing a freelance collection for him. And I went to see him and what we did at the time was add up, you know, a pattern cutter’s wages and a seamstress’s wages and a secretary’s wages and just added it all up together and that was what I needed to pay these people so that up until when we showed the first collection, I mean there was only me, nobody else had given up their jobs, everybody had done it either on the side or in spare time for me, or you know, out of love really. [laughs] And when we realised that we had to get it on a much more firm, proper basis, we just didn’t have the money to pay anybody’s salaries, so I didn’t want to ask anybody to work for me without. So I went along to see him with this figure in my head and said, well, this is what I need to do it, plus this is what you need to pay me and I need, if I have to go on trips and everything, I need expenses paying, whatever. And so that’s what we did. So I did freelance collections for Monsoon when, there was a guy called Rifat Ozbek there who was very well known afterwards, after he left Monsoon, he started up on his own and was very successful. And I went in to do a little tiny collection for them, you know, to give them something else other than their Indian, jewelled, embroidered smocks that they were doing, really. And what was fabulous about it was that I got to go to India. And I went to India five or six times for them and met the most fabulous people, and also it coincided – Peter and I got on very well and because I was freelance I could go in and say what I liked, and he was doing us a great favour as well, but I mean I was working for him too and I think the collections were really quite successful for him. But what we came in and did, what I came in and did was cotton things, you know, cotton and striped cotton and shirting cotton and Indian sari Betty Jackson Page 350 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35) fabric, but you know, we used it in a completely different way. So we did all those sort of, all the things that I’d been doing for Quorum and what I’d started to do for me; big skirts and great big shirts with belts and you know, wrappy things and tie things, which Monsoon had never had, really, so for him it was quite successful, but what was great was that he gave me this dosh that enabled me then to pay everybody. So by the time we got to Hanway Street, we moved to Hanway Street, each collection I did, I said well you know what, I need to employ, seriously you’ve got to give me this money too Peter if you want me to do another one, this is what you have to do. And it went on for, we did, I did four or five collections for him, which was fantastic. And then it came to an end because I didn’t have any time after that, you know, it was just too much, I couldn’t, because by that time my business was growing. But he really did help out in the beginning and, what was fantastic was that it actually, you know, got me to another continent and it was wonderful. I fell in love with India big time and had the most fantastic experiences out there.

Could you say a bit more about that and those?

Well, we, he, first of all I got very grand and said I wouldn’t go unless I went first class, so I did go first class, so that was very nice. And he put me with this wonderful woman, called Mani Mann , who was one of his suppliers who ran a factory out in Delhi, she lived in Delhi. But she was one of these international Indian women, very beautiful, stunningly attractive, never married, but at that time or maybe shortly before, had lived the life, had had a lover in every major capital city of the world. And you know, went to Vienna to the opera, went to San Francisco to some opening of some place, I mean she was a fabulous – well, she still is – a fabulous woman. And she happened to make all these sort of cotton embroidered things. But he was, I mean he was very clever, the way he actually said, oh, you must work with Mani , she’s one of our suppliers, she’ll look after you. And she really, really did. I mean we had the best times together. We travelled all over India, which was a completely wonderful experience, but with somebody like Mani who was you know, really took no nonsense, she was just fantastic. She lived in a most beautiful apartment in Delhi – she’s moved now – but she lived at that time, it was a huge apartment filled with treasures of the world. She had posters signed by artists who fell in love with her, she had you know, gifts that were… she had photo… I mean she was just an extraordinary woman. And she had this manservant called Prymsin who, since he had Betty Jackson Page 351 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35) been, since Mani had been eighteen, he had been fifteen, he had slept outside her door and he did this every night. And he still managed to have three wives and about seventeen children, but he is dead now, but he looked after and she was so grand, but beautiful and wonderful and human and humble all wrapped up into one person. And knowledgeable and hugely talented and graceful and gracious, and all of those things. Which I must say, I found most people to be. So she used to have these parties and you know, and somebody would just sort of come and sing for us all and it was just the most extraordinary thing. And then we travelled right down to the south in India, we flew to Bangalore and then tried to get on a plane to Cananoor which was down in the south, to look at fabrics, we had to go and choose fabrics. And initially, you know, I went round the markets of India and chose fabrics and she always said, you know, you can’t have that, that’s you know, a cotton that you know, bricklayers wear. But it was the most fabulous cotton in the most beautiful stripes and you know, and I didn’t care, I was coming at it from a different place. So we just used to sort of, she used to have you know, somebody trailing around, but we just used to buy all these bolts of fabric and this poor chap behind would stagger along behind us carrying and then we’d sort of rush back to a factory and you know, and get things made out of them. And it was fabulous and we got stuck in Bangalore because they cancelled the plane. I mean extraordinary, we went on a train and we, the lights failed and we were overrun with cockroaches and she was just brilliant and we went to stay in this hotel which was the best hotel in this village, down in the south, we walked into this room and I swear it was a, it was a dirt floor, two mattresses on it and a tap coming out of the wall and this was what they, you know, they said was bathroom en suite [laughing], which meant that there was sort of like a sort of garden tap coming out. But she steered me through, she was just brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And we went, I remember we went to get on the plane to come back to Delhi and we went to Cananoor airport, which was a sort of tin hut in the middle of a field, so got a taxi from the railway, because we’d gone on the railway down. We had to fly back because we had to get back quicker and so we went, we were taken to this, it was a field really with a sort of little tin hut in one corner, and there were about fifteen people there. Anyway, so we sort of, somebody brought us seats and we sat down rather grandly. Don’t know how she ever managed that, but she always used to say something, people would run around and do things for her. She had amazing presence. Anyway, so we were sat there. Gradually this field filled up with people with packages and children and food and, you know, baskets and goodness knows what. And Betty Jackson Page 352 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side A (part 35) then about two hours after, this plane – no sign of any plane, no sign at all of any plane – and then a little boy emerged from this runway with a sort of, holding a piece of, like a sort of blackboard sign on a pole with a bell on it and he walked through the crowds you know, showing this, and it said that the plane had been delayed for three days. So it hadn’t been cancelled, but it had been delayed for three days. So this was extraordinary, so there was a sort of a bit of a flurry of activity where people then got out tents or sat under canopies and prepared to wait for three days. Anyway, Mani was having none of this, she went immediately, gave over this wodge of money to this bloke, who actually drove us in his car all the way up to Bangalore, which is miles. It took us two days to get there, but it was the most fantastic journey, because the south of India is very different from the north because it’s very tropical and everybody is well fed and you know, they walk around with just sarongs on and they oil their bodies and they’re beautiful in a different sort of way. And you know, food is plentiful of course, you know, so we stopped by the side of the road and ate melons and you know, it was just the most fantastic trip, really. You know, I’ll never experience anything like it, I think. So all in all, I’m very grateful to Peter Simon for allowing me to do that, as well as paying my pattern cutter, he let me into a world that I would never have seen, because also, not going somewhere like that as a tourist meant that I had a very different experience. It was fabulous.

And was the whole thing about seeing fabrics, I mean the whole tour?

Yeah, the whole tour was about seeing fabrics, because we then brought them back and we, because in the south you know, they weave them, so we went to see them weave and you know, I got my own stripes done and you know, the whole thing about Indian cloth is that it’s… I mean it’s again that thing about it’s not completely perfect, which is the things that I absolutely love. Going back to, you know, putting a big print on a cloth so that every one is different, in the same way, you know, I love the fact that you know, everybody in the family weaves and when granddad swaps to nephew, you know, he weaves in a different way so there’ll be a slight change in the tension and…

[End of Tape 18 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 353 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

Tape 18 Side B [part 36]

…and so this slight change in tension, which I always thought was rather beautiful and tried to put into the clothes we designed, really.

And Mani Mann , what nationality was she?

She was Sikh, Indian.

And what had she actually been hired by Peter Simon to do?

She owned a factory. She was quite a, obviously quite wealthy, I mean I think I’ve made that clear, and she had, I think she had three factories altogether. And she produced an awful lot of garments for them, she was a big manufacturer for him at the time.

So was she, what was the arrangement, a contract or how did they, you know?

Well I’ve no idea, I mean she was just one of his suppliers and I think because, like I said, that she was quite an extraordinary woman, they obviously had some – I mean the story of Peter Simon is that he fell in love with India as well and all things Indian, so he’s very much at one with those people, which is why he based his, you know, based his company on giving them work I think. So I think that there was an enormous personal bond between them as well. And because she went beyond, you know, what she was doing. And because what, I suppose the sort of things that I was proposing to do for him were slightly different, that he thought that he ought to have somebody who would understand a little bit easier than you know, other manufacturers who maybe wouldn’t get why things had to be done in a certain way.

So you were designing for Monsoon and doing your own collections at the same time?

Yeah.

How could you… Betty Jackson Page 354 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

Oh, it was easy, lots of time then. I mean my collection was small, and his collection was small too. So it was terribly easy, I’m much busier now, I tell you.

So did you, I mean were you working, how did you arrange your time – were you doing this chunk this, this chunk this, or…?

Yeah, I think, I mean I went to India at the beginning of the season, but it never affected what we were doing. I mean I used to – he was such a nice man, he is such a nice man. I mean he made things terribly easy for me. You know, I used to go in for half a day and present drawings and you know, which then, you know and he then approved what he wanted to be carried on with and then magically they you know, got sent out and the specs got done, the patterns got done, then the garments would arrive back. What I went out to India to do was to see the skills that were available really. Choose the fabrics, obviously, and buy them there and then, bring back the fabrics that I wanted to work with, but also see, you know, the huge possibilities that were there. So that was Mani’s job really, because you know, they were very big on embroidery, but I wanted to do embroidery not in an Indian sort of way, in a sort of much more, much different. I mean sometimes I didn’t want to do it at all. She always hated that when I didn’t do embroidery because it was her thing. But, you know, I wanted to do it in a much bolder way whereas they’d, you know, I think when they thought of things appealing to a western market, they thought of you know, white cotton embroidered with a lacy edge and I wanted to look at things that were much more to do with authentic Indian appliqué and mirror embroideries and bolder colours and much rougher sort of texture. So that’s really what she was showing me, you know, what was possible. And the embellishment that was there. But I just wanted to do it in a you know, much rawer sort of way, really, I suppose.

And did you go back to India before each collection?

Yes, I visited about five or six times. It was fantastic.

Did you take, or how much did you take that over into your own work?

Betty Jackson Page 355 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

Oh, I think I separated it off very, very definitely. What we were doing was something else. I regarded Monsoon as very much a means to an end. You know, I wasn’t as emotionally involved with it, obviously and you know, I think I did regard it as a job, you know a little bit… And I didn’t want the two to be similar at all, in fact very few people knew that I was doing Monsoon, we didn’t publicise it at all and he certainly didn’t, because Rifat was his designer. So I didn’t want to tread on anybody’s toes you know, about that, so I think, I mean there was no name on the label, there was no, you know, he just needed, he wanted to be I suppose, in on what was happening then with a different sort of look and I could help him out there. And that was it, it was a business arrangement that worked perfectly and lasted, however long it lasted - can’t remember how long it lasted. It must have been two or three years.

And did you get to know Rifat?

Briefly, yes. I did, yes. I think I did. I didn’t ever work with him, he kept everybody very separate, Peter, but I’ve met him there. And he was always under terrible difficulties because he always had to renew his visa, because he’s Turkish and yeah, and he was – I think that he didn’t do his best work when he was at Monsoon, when he left and started his own company, he then went on to be really rather brilliant. I think he had a hard time at Monsoon, really.

And what was he like when you knew him?

He was very sweet, very glamorous, very nice really. But you know, that sort of next half generation really that comes, almost like I was to Ossie, I suppose, you know that sort of next thing that’s coming up. Rifat – Rifat, you see Rifat understood perfectly the time when I was floundering, you know, his best time really was sort of end of the eighties and beginning of the nineties. He understood that sort of sharp, sexy look and did it brilliantly. He was tremendously successful.

And can you tell me a bit more about that floundering and you know, you said you lost your way a little bit – how did it all…?

Betty Jackson Page 356 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

I think a lot of it was to do with how much we’d taken on. Some of it was to do with our arrogance, I’m sure, you know about thinking that everything would continue forever, and of course it doesn’t. And some of it was me not keeping up to speed about things, you know, as far as looks were concerned – I don’t know, maybe the feeling that what was going to come next. And I think, I mean there were a lot of things going on. You know, we had quite a large circle of friends at that time, plus I had my two children and so I think I was, it was just all too much really, I think I was just absolutely exhausted. There are, I mean I know I flounder on a lot of these tapes about remembering details and things, but actually I can honestly say that huge chunks of my life that I can’t remember at all, and I think because I was so exhausted. So, I mean, all of that you know, briefly and very personally, we will touch on after the accident, after the car accident, I think that they told my mother that I probably wouldn’t ever be able to have children and when – I think I’ve mentioned it before – I said we did have a conversation, David and I, because of his background, you know, children are very important to his family and I did explain that the possibility would be that I, we wouldn’t and then we went to Japan and – that was also you see what was happening. Japan, we were then selling to Seibu, which is a huge department store business in Japan, which actually accounted for, it was a huge buy they used to put in every season. And we used to have to travel there too, plus there was America which was also becoming very, very important, I mean we were selling to nearly every major store in America, and so there was a lot of travelling to do, there was a lot of, we had to go and see these places because we had no idea. And I think I turned down more invitations than had had hot dinners, really, because everybody wanted you know, to make personal appearances and everybody you know, wanted this new young British thing that was happening. And so there were a lot of trips to go on and that happened when, all round about the same time, so we were, there was a lot to do. In Tokyo, they used to have this show, which was the best five and it was run by Akira Mori who was Hanae Mori’s son and he had, he was in charge of most of the fashion world in Japan, really, between them, it was sort of bit of a dynasty that was a bit like the Fairchild Organisation, Women’s Wear Daily in America. And they had this show annually, it was the big five designers and they’d invite what they, in their, what they thought was the best five designers and this particular year they decided to not have big designers and go with young British designers. And so we were asked to be part of that and there was Culture Shock, Judy Blaine, ourselves, John Richmond – it was another set of designers that you know, we weren’t Betty Jackson Page 357 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36) really part of, but alongside, it was a fantastic group. And so that was the first trip to Tokyo that we went to. And then it coincided with Seibu coming in and wanting to buy quite a lot of the collection and business really mushrooming out of, out of what we had considered it being, really. Suddenly it was – I mean we were producing thousands of garments at that time and really by the skin of our teeth, quite honestly. I mean really by the skin of our teeth. It had escalated season on season and the numbers were doubling and trebling and you know, we still had the same manual method of buying fabric, of, it was still made with little outworkers, I mean it was extraordinary really, extraordinary times. We, at that time looked to manufacture in Italy as well – sorry I’m getting confusing now about everything. But during that time, I’m trying to explain that an awful lot of things kicked off at the same time. So the business expanded in America, the business expanded in Japan, we started manufacturing out of England, in Italy for the first time, I was pregnant for the first time, you know, things were doubling, tripling in the UK as well. So there was such a lot going on, that it was difficult to keep a lid on everything really.

So how did you and when did you discover that you were pregnant?

Well, you know, when we came back from Japan, I was so ill in Japan and I thought it was the food, I thought I’d got food poisoning and I love Japanese food. And it was in November and we went to do this show, which was hugely successful and in a Japanese way, you know, very organised and very proper, but I mean all of us were flown over there and all of us were flown back and it was just an extraordinary thing really. And during the time, about halfway through the trip – I think we were out there for about ten days – and you know, every minute was taken up with either being taken to see something or giving an interview or – and they’re very sort of proper in their interviews, it’s not sort of a casual, oh what do you think about this, it’s you know, you have to sort of go into minute detail and talk about things in depth and it all has to be translated, so time consuming trip, really. And about halfway through I just really got very ill and just actually wanted a MacDonald’s [laughs], rather than you know, another plate of sashimi, which I absolutely love, I mean, and I really, really thought I’d got food poisoning, I just was ill. And got back and this food poisoning didn’t go. I remember actually, in a department store somebody sprayed with me Opium, Yves Saint Laurent Opium, and I absolutely had to Betty Jackson Page 358 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36) dash to the loo to throw up, it was just, and I you know, it’s not an unpleasant smell for goodness’ sake, but everything, everything in my whole day just actually made me nauseous. So anyway, I went to the – and it didn’t clear up and I went to the doctor’s thinking that I’d really got something quite serious, and plus with my father having stomach cancer I was absolutely convinced that I’d, you know, got that. So I went to the doctor’s and he said, no, no, no, you’re pregnant, for goodness’ sake. I nearly fell off the chair. So that was all rather marvellous and terrible at the same time, because we had all these things to do and how on earth was I gonna, I’d never considered coping with a babe, you know, and it hadn’t really… and so I think, I mean not that we weren’t delighted and thrilled, but we were rather anxious as well because you know, they said early on that I had to have a Caesarean, but in any case I went to meet the most wonderful doctor who was a friend of my then GP, who said I’m going to send you to Mary Stopes and she’s fabulous and she was. And so we celebrated this thing, Mary Stopes and I, throughout and she was the most wonderful woman and led me through it and I got her out of retirement to deliver my second one, because she knew what was happening. But looked after me brilliantly, but it was only, you know, and then of course both children were early because I only have half a womb, so this poor baby grew in half the size, because of the accident I only have one ovary that works but anyway, that’s the most personal we’re gonna get in this tape. [laughs] But just to say that the whole thing was really quite tricky, but we had no idea that it was going to be so tricky. But having said that, I was ill from morning till night throughout the whole of these pregnancies, which lots of people are, but of course there was a reason why I was. So to cope with everything as well was, I think that contributed a lot to us losing the plot, because I had no idea what time of day it was, let alone what colours I liked and what pattern I liked or whether a sleeve was put in properly. So we were very lucky that we got through the next three years really, because I was hopeless.

So what period is this we’re talking about, of your pregnancies?

This is 1980s. Well eighty-five, eighty-six, November eighty-five.

Apart from having been warned that you might not be able to have children, had you wanted to have a child?

Betty Jackson Page 359 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

I never thought about it. I don’t think I’m maternal, I think I would still say that, I think my children would probably say that too, I don’t think I actually… And you know, I never really worried about it, it never came into my realm of thinking. I was passionate about other things. I never thought I’d get married, I never thought I’d be in a long term relationship, I never considered it as a necessity to my life. I think I wanted to do what I do more than anything, and selfishly I’ve been able to do that. But I don’t know whether you know, I can even say I cut it out because it was too painful to think about, I don’t even think it was that, I mean I think I’m being completely honest in saying it never bothered me, you know, one way or the other. I felt the need to explain it to David, obviously, you know, to give him the option to run away, you know, if it was… But it never really, you know, I never really had that vision of domestic bliss, really.

At what point did you get married?

We got married, well we actually were thinking about getting married the following summer, but we brought the whole thing forward so that Pascale wouldn’t be there on the day, and so we got married in January of nineteen eighty – whatever it was, six. No, five I think. She was born in eighty-six. Oh no, it would be eighty-six, I’m sorry. Yeah, January 1986. Gosh I’m hopeless, I get the day wrong as well, we forget. I don’t know whether I was married on the eleventh of January or the fourteenth of January, but I’m hopeless with dates and things like that.

And how did David react to first learning that you were pregnant?

Well, he was thrilled, and anxious and you know, but absolutely – everybody was thrilled, it was just, you know. But the thing is, it wasn’t very cool to be pregnant then. Nobody was pregnant in our world, you know. I mean now everybody you know, babies are fabulous and everybody… but then it really wasn’t. It was something we didn’t really give time for. We just got on with everything else we had to do, pushed it away I suppose, really.

And you would have been by then about thirty-five?

Betty Jackson Page 360 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

Ooh yes. Thirty-six I think, thirty-six. Aged primate was written on my notes, I remember. [laughs] It’s quite shocking isn’t it.

And did that influence anything to do with the pregnancy?

Well yeah, I had to go you know, for all those horrid tests like amniocentesis and all of those. And my secretary at that stage was a friend of mine, Lesley, and she was also pregnant at the same time, but the difference was, she was ten years younger than me, she was twenty-four. She completely sailed through hers and I was shockingly ill.

Was she still with Christian?

No, this is a different Lesley, I’m sorry, I should have explained. She was already married to an architect friend of ours called Harry. And she expected her first child at the same time as me. There was a point where we said it was a chair that somebody sat on, because everybody got pregnant, it was really weird. Being so relaxed and having fun at the office, it doesn’t work. Has horrible consequences.

So you had this period of being frantically busy and being pregnant at the same time, and then, well at some point you had to stop working?

I did. We moved, we moved into Tottenham Street also, during this time when I was pregnant and I remember standing at the top of the stairs in Tottenham Street, because by then David was on the ground floor in an office and my design room was upstairs. I remember standing on the stairs and just bursting into tears and saying, shouting, somebody get this baby out. And I don’t know why I cried and I don’t know, you know, well I just felt so awful and I knew that something had to be done. And so, I mean, you know it was a small office, this was our place as well, so everybody was you know, involved in the whole thing, it was all, there was a lot of affection there is what I mean, so there’s a lot of support as well. And so David phoned Mary up and said, in distress, he put me in the car and took me home and put me to bed and she came immediately and said, well I think we’ll do this tomorrow morning, shall we. So I went to the Portland, which is a bit like a hotel, a hospital hotel, and she did it then. Betty Jackson Page 361 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36)

The Caesarean?

The Caesarean. And then discovered, because of course it hadn’t shown up on the scans, you know, that this poor baby was squashed into half the size that she should have been squashed into. I mean it was odd because, you know, it looked quite normal, but I used to sort of, I mean we went on holiday, we went to lie on a beach in the south of France and I remember lying there and you know, this lump that was slightly to one side and everybody sort of remarked on it, but everybody thought it was because of my leg, you know, that it wasn’t anything to do… But poor Pascale was squashed in half the space that she should, and it was actually such a good thing that she did it then and she was incredibly brave to do it, because six weeks premature you see, so it was a bit of a tricky situation and she was only, just about made four pounds I think, three eight or something she was when she came out, but yelling, you know, her head off. But her feet were sort of bent back because she had no room to move. And so, it’s the one thing that you know, you have to just listen to what your body says, really. I mean I would say that often through my life, you have to stop and listen to what it tells you, because you know if you’re, it sounds like – because I’m not sort of, I’m not emotional about it at all, but definitely the message loud and clear came, said to me, this has to stop and I think something awful would have happened if I hadn’t said it. So, it’s the same if you drink too much, you know, there is a trigger that goes off in your head saying, you know, or if you abuse yourself in any way, there is a trigger and if you’re able to listen to it, then it does tell you what to do next. Anyway, this did, and so yeah, the next morning, Pascale was born. Quarter past eight, which was great. And Mary Stopes was absolutely wonderful and David was there. And I remember her saying, ‘Oh my goodness, come and look at this’, because she also didn’t know why this baby was, but she just knew that I was in such distress, so she handled everything beautifully.

So, the distress was feeling sick or other things?

Just, I can’t describe the feeling, it was just a feeling of distress. My whole body was in distress, I wasn’t going to be sick, I just knew that something terrible was going to happen Betty Jackson Page 362 C1046/10 Tape 18 Side B (part 36) if I didn’t react. And that’s the only way I can describe it, just, I was in distress, the whole of me was in distress.

So you had a baby…

Yeah. Yes, gosh.

And what happened then, I mean you were in the hospital and…?

Well, one of the good things of course, was the Portland was just by Tottenham Street, so from day one I you know, they used to bring the post up to me, I used to you know, choose fabrics, life went on round my hospital bed with this baby in a basket. So I think I was in the Portland for ten days and then went home, but didn’t really, I mean maybe it coincided with a weekend, but I think I went into the office with Pascale in a basket. She lived – well I remember once I said to somebody, Pascale lived in a basket on my desk and one of our machinists said, ‘Actually she lived under your desk’ [laughs], ‘for quite a long time’.

[End of Tape 18 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 363 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

Tape 19 Side A [part 37]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson, this is tape nineteen and it’s Friday the twenty-second of April 2005. And Betty, we were just talking before I started recording about your appointment or election as Trustee to the Victoria and Albert Museum, so would you like to say a bit about that?

Well it’s sort of, yeah, I mean it’s a thrilling thing really. They, I mean I don’t know, I’ve absolutely no idea how it came about, except I suppose it’s one of those things that if you’ve been around for quite a long time then they eventually ask you to do this sort of thing. But anyway, I got a letter out of the blue asking me you know, were it to be put forward would I consider, and I met up with the Finance Director there who came and explained to me what it would be about and we had a very nice chat about it and he’s rather good fun, and sort of told me who else was on it and that it was you know, that they were keen to - there were two spaces and they were keen to get somebody who was involved, you know with clothes and fabric I suppose, because you know, they’re well known for that particular archive. So I was absolutely delighted to be asked and [laughs] then, had to go for an interview, meet the Governor of the Board of Trustees and – who’s an absolutely wonderful lady, Paula Ridley, but be almost interviewed for this sort of post. Now it’s a very long time since I’ve been [laughing], had to go for a job interview and they had, and it was just, I was absolutely terrified. It was as if you know, all your nightmares had come true and I don’t know whether it was just because I’m so used to sort of interviewing other people or putting other people at ease, or being in control of something – ah! And I went – oh and it was the most august place anyway, the boardroom and they tried to be, she, Paula tried to be as kind and as lovely as possible, but this other person who was there was really quite severe and obviously didn’t want me at all. And I stumbled through this disastrous meeting and I couldn’t believe how inarticulate I was, it was astonishing, it was completely astonishing. And I thought, as I came out I just thought well, how do you mess something up as badly as this? And they were so kind and I lost all my general knowledge, all went out the window, it was absolutely extraordinary. Anyway, to cut a long story short, Ian, the Finance Director who was also in on part of the meeting, rang me – and in the middle of this I actually said, ‘You know what, I’m completely nervous about this’. And she said, ‘Yes, it can be quite daunting’ and she said, ‘We have Betty Jackson Page 364 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37) felled many a sturdy person here in these walls’. And actually it was extraordinary; the whole place became too big for me to cope with, I couldn’t, I mean, I’m very rarely phased by something like that. Anyway, so I came stumbling out and said to Ian, ‘You know, really I’m so sorry, it would have been great but I’ve actually messed this up really good and proper’. And he said, ‘Oh, don’t worry, don’t worry, I know there’s so many people who would like you to join us’ and you know, ‘It was fine, it was fine, it was fine’. And I said, ‘You know, really Ian, if there was anybody as badly behaved as myself I would absolutely not want them on my board, thank you very much’, and so you know, ‘It’s been very nice meeting you, thanks very much, but you know, go on to the next person’. Anyway, a week later he phoned me and he said, ‘Confidentially, you know, everybody’s giving you the thumbs up and everybody thinks it’s disarmingly charming’. [laughs] ‘You were so inarticulate.’ [laughs] So anyway, and they hope for better things in a board meeting, you know later on’. But anyway, so then, of course it then goes before the Prime Minister, because he has to appoint and because it’s a Government body and it’s a public body and that can take some time, so then I got the official thing from Downing Street in December, and so that was lovely. And so I’m now part of the wonderful place of which, you know, I’m starting to get more knowledgeable about and every time I go through the door I think gosh, it’s amazing really to be asked to do something like that. I feel very privileged and very special, and the only drawback is they inundate you with a mound of paperwork, which you know, you really sort of have to chuck in the bin, but you know, as any sort of board game is about. So yes, so I’m part of that and what I’m doing at the moment with them is actually having wonderful sessions in their archives and having a look at what they’ve got. And so I hope I can be of some use, you know, somewhere along the line. But it’s an absolute pleasure, I handled, the other Tuesday I went and handled Cristobal Balenciaga and then a Bonnie Cashin and Claire McCardell dress; it was special really, very good. It’s a very exciting thing to do.

Why d’you think you were so incredibly nervous?

I’ve absolutely no idea. I think it was, I think I’d been quite blasé about it and thought – and also because it’s an odd thing, because they invite you to go along and when I met Ian Blatchford the, when he came to explain, he said, ‘I just want to tell you that it can be quite daunting, the interview process’ he said, ‘and they are quite rigorous’, and he said, ‘but Betty Jackson Page 365 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37) don’t be put off. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, having thought, you know, just thinking well, there’s not much I can’t manage really. And it completely – and I think it was actually [laughs], I think it was I parked the car round the side and I walked past the whole building and it’s such an impressive building and it’s so big and it’s so – and I just thought, this is such a wonderful thing to be part of and I was sort of overwhelmed by the enormity of it I think. And the fact you know that it’s been there for so many years and it will be there for so many years after I die and to be able to be part of it for even a short time, you know, is actually a very special privilege. And I think that the sort of enormity of that sort of hit me hard as I walked in and I was unprepared, really. And it was on the hottest day of the year and I think I was catching a plane that afternoon and I honestly hadn’t thought about it seriously enough, so it sort of backfired on me big time, it was a bit of a lesson for me I think really.

So what sort of questions did they ask you?

What I thought about the future plan, you know, the building that they’ve now stopped. And I was very keen on it and I think museums have to move forward and get together with the modern age and he, the bloke who I can’t remember his name, but anyway absolutely obviously hated it and completely shot me to pieces…

This is not Ian? It’s another one?

Not Ian. Ian said very little, he was sort of smiling and encouraging and sort of you know, trying to stop me stammering I think really. [laughs] And Paula was very kind too. But he absolutely shot me to pieces in this respect and, anyway, it was something that hasn’t finally gone through and I just didn’t have an argument prepared for it. And also I didn’t have enough knowledge at my fingertips, you know it’s something that you read generally about it, but because I hadn’t really considered being a part of it that I hadn’t read up on the place and I hadn’t done my homework and I actually should have done really.

And what is the plan?

Betty Jackson Page 366 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

Well it’s not that any more because they haven’t got the money now, and so the future plan, well the whole of South Kensington is going to be developed. I mean, as a trustee, one is responsible for everything that the museum has within its walls, but also one is responsible for generally the public perception of the museum for – you know, to get its reputation, to build it up, to get more people through it, to actually make sure that the projects are exciting and relevant and to bring ideas and you know, forward and anything that the Director or the other members of staff there are doing, get put forward to us first and, for approval and so you’re able to comment before things go forward. But most of it is confidential before it – and then it’s up to the staff to let it out. What we don’t do is run the museum, I think we’re an advisory capacity.

So what were the really tricky questions?

You know I’ve blanked the whole thing out because it was so ghastly. I couldn’t even – I mean it was to do with you know, what I thought about certain parts of the museum, it was to do with what I thought of certain collections in the museum and you know, what I thought about museums in general up and down the country and when you – you know, I’m a layman as far as a museum, I go into a museum for an exhibition and like or don’t like or go in for a specific thing, but that’s my involvement really and I haven’t – and at one point I think I did say to him, ‘You know what, I haven’t actually wished this appointment’ you know, ‘you have come to me to ask. So I think we should sort of calm down a bit here’. But anyway, no it was really, it was very, he was really quite aggressive and obviously just thought, what’s this jumped up little twerp who knows nothing doing here. And I probably confirmed every fear he had during the hour long session. Anyway, I’ve been to a few meetings since then and everybody was very kind and very nice and very – and also because I haven’t done anything like this before, so I’m not, you know I’m not one of those people who go, who’s on lots of committees and lots of boards. And I run a very small company here, so it’s something that I’m not very used to as well, so, but anyway it’ll be fine, I’m very excited about what’s happening there.

Who are the other trustees – what sort of people are they?

Betty Jackson Page 367 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

Oh, they’re diverse. There’s people like Lisa Jardine, the journalist. There’s Tim Sainsbury, Lord Sainsbury. There’s Samir Shah, the guy who used to do Channel 4, er BBC, Christopher Frayling, Head of the Royal College, Margaret Buck, Head of the London Institute. Paul Ruddock, who’s a mediaeval art collector. Who else, who else? Mmm… Lots of people. There’s about fourteen of us I think, altogether.

So I mean you hold these meetings and what is exactly required of you?

It’s the business of the museum. You know, you get told what’s happening. And there are also there’s sort of subsidiary museums as well, there’s the Museum of Childhood and there’s the Theatre Museum. So you get to know, you know, a lot of it is about finance and what you do about that and a lot of it is – and because it’s, you know, it’s run on public funds you have to make sure they’re put to good use really, I suppose. But I’ve always, I mean I’ve always thought that you know, the V and A do things very well, you know any project they undertake they seem to do really very well. So you know, it can be, I mean it can be – well at the moment the project is because they’re redeveloping the garden and that’s sort of under construction and so there’s all that to sort of discuss and there’s the whole of South Kensington being a bit of a pedestrian thoroughfare that has to be thought about and generally what people find good and bad about it, d’you know what I mean? Its security, which is a constant problem really and a tragic problem, because it does mean that at certain times, you know, you have to close parts off because people are particularly non-caring. And whether, I mean their programme is fantastically well thought out. You know, they do big blockbuster exhibitions, but then they’re very careful catering to you know, tinier, more specialised ones as well. You know, that may or may not be a success, but it’s a very sort of well balanced place I think.

And you said you hoped to be of use to them – what would you like to bring to the museum?

Well, I think that that’s just a matter of you know, whatever one can, you know. I mean it’s, my experience within the fashion industry presumably has some count, or at least they think it is, so if anything – and they do a lot to do with fashion and textiles and it’s the part of them that brings them a lot of publicity, a lot of success. I mean the Vivienne Betty Jackson Page 368 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

Westwood exhibition is now a travelling exhibition that is a money-spinner for them and is now booked to go to Australia. I mean it’ll be travelling for three or four years. So you know, even on that level – and they opened one recently, Spectres, I don’t know whether you read about it, but you know, they opened it during Milan fashion week which was really silly timing, you know. Well at least I can actually point that out and the fashion calendar, if they want fashion folk to be there, then don’t choose a week where everybody is out of the country. And simple things like that really, and the look of it and you know, who’s exciting and who’s interesting and you know, if they’ve got the balance right I think.

Are you talking about contemporary fashion or historical?

Anything, historical as well. You know, more and more and more, I mean even in the arts and crafts that they’ve got on at the moment there’s a sort of section for what people wore – largely to do with, you know, during that movement of course everybody wanted to go back to the way the peasants dressed and you know, hand embroidery and farmers’ smocks and things, so it was relevant to the particular exhibition, but often you know, most of their exhibitions seem to be to do with the relation with you know, textiles and cloth or clothes of some description.

And you said you’d been burrowing around in the archive – what are you…?

Well I haven’t, that’s not quite true. I mean that’s a, you know, I’m meeting up with the modern art curator there on a regular basis to just find out more about who they have and about you know, who they want and about specifically what they’re working on, you know, over the next few years. I mean they do plan ahead. There’s a couple of great exhibitions coming on in the future which are, you know, I think’ll be very exciting so I’ve been talking to them about that and you know, and actually to get to know the staff within that particular area is important because they’ve also got their grievances or things that they want flagged up at particular meetings. You know, so if I can be of help in that as a sort of bit of a bridge, you know, it would be good wouldn’t it?

I mean that sounds like quite an unusual or interesting role – is that how you see it? Betty Jackson Page 369 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

Well, I think it’s a bit of a plus that I can actually get into all these bits, you know to actually – I’ve never touched a Claire McCardell dress before, you know, so that was pretty amazing thinking of the woman who did it, who I think was particularly talented and responsible for you know, the birth of sportswear in America, contemporary sportswear certainly, in America. And you know, so to actually feel that something was, you know, you’re privileged to actually be able to be part of something like that.

What was the dress like?

Oh, just a simple cotton dress, which is what she does. You know, big pockets, little turn- up collar. Very simple. The Balenciagas were sensational as well because he was the master of cut. I think lots of modern designers would recognise that and that was particularly beautiful, really.

What did it look like?

It was black and had a fantastic seam detail. There was a centre front seam on the skirt and a bodice, a separate bodice, but then the fabric from the centre front seam of the skirt went round to the back, so it was cut on the cross at the back and went on to this dolman sleeve, so that was all cut in one piece, which was, which was spectacular really. Very cleverly done, most beautiful shape and quite difficult to control, but you know, and just looked as if it would look sensational on and they had pictures to support it and it did. I mean it was just spectacularly clever, really. And the fastenings, how you know, he zipped things up underneath but then very carefully put hooks and eyes across or buttons so that you never saw the zip. He was passionate about fastening. Apparently rumoured to have said, he was zipping somebody up in a Dior dress and said, ‘Oh Christian, how could you’. [laughs] But that might have just been general rivalry. And he famously only gave one interview the whole of his life, which I approve of completely, as you know I don’t like doing interviews. And I think he was very clever to get away with doing one in his life.

And how might you use the knowledge or the experience of handling this wonderful garment? Betty Jackson Page 370 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

I’ve no idea. I have no idea at all. I have absolutely no idea, I’m completely a new girl on the block, I go to meetings in a naïve way and if there’s anything that I want to say on anything on the agenda, then I do. I’m sure they require a much broader vision than I’m speaking about now, but as far as I’m concerned, you know, I want more knowledge of the place from my point of view as well as a sort of general feel about how the place is run and you know, and I think more and more if I’ve been asked to be on this particular committee, then you know, my opinion good or bad, counts, so that’s what I’m going to do.

Thank you. Perhaps we could go back now to where we left off…

Left off! [laughs] Where were we? In Japan.

No we weren’t. Well we had started to talk about Japan, I mean you talked about Japan in the context of that was when you first had the symptoms of being pregnant and so forth.

Oh yeah.

But you indicated that you know, there was a lot more to say or possibly more to say about the whole experience of going there and working there and so on.

Yeah. I mean Japan was a very, very important part of our business when we signed the deal with Seibu, which, because it guaranteed us a certain turnover with them and then they were responsible for distribution and then we visited Japan twice a year over the next three, four years. And so – and again in fact, when that contract ended and we subsequently signed with somebody else to continue – so it is an amazing place, Japan, it functions like nowhere else on the planet. You know, it’s consumer gone mad. And particularly with clothes, because at that time certainly, they have a very different lifestyle and if you think about the importance of clothes and fashion in their lifestyle you realise the incredible potential out there and certainly it was like that in the mid eighties, because young people live with their parents until they go and get married. They don’t spend money on homes, they don’t spend money on cars, they don’t spend money on gardens, they don’t spend money on second homes, they don’t spend money on holidays. What Betty Jackson Page 371 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37) they spend money on is actually what they wear. And so there’s an enormous disposable income, and plus it is very, very important to them. And it’s completely different from, especially a sort of British way of looking at it where homes, gardens, cars and football matches come before clothes. So it was odd being elevated to you know, pop star status suddenly. And immediately, you know we had sort of blanket coverage throughout Tokyo, you know with areas within stores and the promotion, so every time I went over there it was sort of back-to-back meeting the press and going to see store managers and meeting the general public and you know, and all of that stuff. So all of that was sort of interesting up to a point, but then like anything it became a sort of monster that had to be fed. Having had, you know, a small success with it at the beginning they of course then wanted more and more and more, and so we found ourselves in a situation where we had to increase the size of the collection in order to cope with Japan’s needs, which was something that I don’t think either of us wanted to do, but it was just a necessity. So we were sort of, we found ourselves reluctantly growing something to suit one particular area of our market that is unspecific to anything else. For example, at a time where certainly in the eighties, I was doing big layered skirts and huge mannish trousers with braces and under, you know, suit jackets and even bigger shirts that you somehow had to tuck in as well, you know, ridiculous but nevertheless that’s what my look was about. We had to, with every jacket fabric, we had to include a knee length pencil skirt. Now this was alien territory for me, it was nothing to do with what I was about as a designer and I, I’m afraid I sort of kicked and screamed against this, but it was actually a requirement, a prerequisite every season. So I became quite annoyed about it, because also it was the one thing that you know, they then used to order in huge quantities so I was sort of cross about – and maybe it was our you know, I’m always very willing to say we’ve organised something badly or we haven’t appreciated their particular requirements and given the fact that they are many sizes smaller than western people, though they’re getting taller, I think that the holding company that we were with were trying to make us into something that we were not. They certainly, you know after two or three seasons became convinced that they could sort of Japanesify us, really and it was something that I didn’t like. So after the three years it came naturally to an end, we parted amicably and by that time, I mean this was just during a period of time that was completely grim and ghastly. I mean there was a recession big time going on in Europe.

Betty Jackson Page 372 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37)

This is nineteen…?

At the end of the eighties.

Eighty-five to eighty-eight or something?

A little bit later, a little bit later than that. And it was actually when the dollar went one one and the bottom dropped out of the American market and, and I have to say actually kept us going brilliantly through a period of time that there were a lot of people went to the wall. So of course I’m grateful for that, but whether or not it did anything to help us creatively or help our reputation, I’m really not sure.

Why were pencil skirts such a big deal for them?

Everybody wears a pencil skirt in Japan.

D’you know why?

It suits their figure, they think it suits their figure, it’s a middle market sort of thing. I mean I’m sure the situation has changed now, I haven’t been back to Japan for quite a long time now, but if you go, there’s millions of people wearing knee length pencil skirts.

It’s taste?

Yeah.

And how had they come to you?

Oh we used to sell, Seibu was a – still is, I suppose – a chain of department stores and a huge company, I mean huge company and we started selling the collection you know, as we sold to other shops, and we sold to them before – well maybe four, two or three years previous to that – and they used to buy a lot and they used to do incredibly well with it when they used to put it in their stores and it was only after the success I suppose of the Betty Jackson Page 373 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 37) collection when they used to buy it from the main collection that they then approached us to do a licensing deal.

[End of Tape 19 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 374 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38)

Tape 19 Side B [part 38]

What I mean is, how did they know of you, do they come to the collections or what?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Seibu is a department store that buys internationally, they had a buying house here so just as Harvey Nichols go abroad and have a buying office in Tokyo and New York, they come here and they have a buying office who deals with them here. He was a really sweet man, the buyer, called Mr Seito who didn’t speak any English at all, but had a huge reputation. He did it very, very, very well when he was here, when he came and everybody wanted to sell to them because of course they were guaranteed payment, you know, and also he used to put down quite a sizeable order so you know, it was good that he did it. And it was almost when they wanted it to get bigger and he came out of the equation that the thing went wrong, because when you license it, it means that we had to make them a whole collection that they then keep in Japan. They were responsible for press, they were responsible for selling the collection on to other places and they have a strange way of doing business; they will invite people to look at the collection, they will invite people to buy it and it’s almost like a sort of exchange. And then you almost exchange it on goodwill, we never really quite understood how it works, but it’s not, it’s not like a normal agency in Europe would operate. And anyway, they did it for six seasons I think altogether and then we came, we didn’t renew.

Can you say a bit more about that so to speak exchange way of doing things?

Well, it was sort of you were, you know there’s all this sort of, you were honoured to be asked by them, to you know, they’d like to present a collection to you, if you’re another store in Osaka for example, and…

They’d present a collection to you?

No, no, no, to another store. They, we made, when we did the licensing deal they were responsible for our distribution in Japan. We had previously sold only to Seibu department stores that have other branches throughout Japan that maybe have a different name, and there are lots of department stores who are massive, I mean huge, and they all Betty Jackson Page 375 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38) compete against each other and they all compete for the best brands and they all compete to have who is in their stable and who is not. A bit like Harrods and Harvey Nichols and Selfridges in this country. When we did the licensing deal, what we then agreed to do was to supply them with a collection. They then presented it to other people that they wished it to be sold to in Japan. They then took orders and gave us a completed order for the whole of Japan, which we would then deliver in one go and they would then distribute it as they saw fit. So we had no longer any control of who we sold to throughout Japan, they took on that control.

So with these other companies that they were selling on to or passing on your work to, were they part of their chain?

Yes they were, I mean...

Not including competitors?

No. They only sold to people – it was all very sort of, yeah – what’s the word? Well it was a strange way of doing things, you know, they jealously guarded the brand, they only allowed certain people to have it, they only allowed certain people to buy it in a certain way. They were in control about what happened to the look and the state of the brand in Japan for the next three years. Now as we’d had such a good reaction, such good sales through Seibu, I think that we thought that it would be the same. In fact, it was quite, quite different, it was quite different.

And how does that system compare with what goes on here, say with a big, I don’t know, a big department store chain or whatever?

I don’t know what you mean.

Well, I’m floundering around. I’m thinking perhaps of John Lewis, I don’t know, I mean I know you sell to John Lewis, I don’t know how many branches carry your brand, but let’s say a big chain like that. How would the way Seibu worked, or works, compare with…

Betty Jackson Page 376 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38)

Yeah but it wasn’t just in department stores, Seibu also chose small boutiques as well to work with them, or to support us, or you know, they would support the small boutiques if indeed the small boutiques supported the brand. So one was on offer, if you like, to be distributed in the way that Seibu saw fit. So, some little great boutique that I liked, if Seibu didn’t like, I didn’t get to sell to them because they had control.

And that wouldn’t happen here?

No it’s not the same system at all. I mean you don’t license to a department store for a start-off, you don’t license to – it’s a completely different, I mean we sell to whoever we want.

And this system that they had, I mean was that, how much was that them exerting a particular power or was it cultural, or how did that fit in…?

It’s the way they do things, it’s the way – I mean many people had, in fact many people had signed licensing agreements before us. We were rather pissed off actually, because we thought it would never happen to us and a lot of people went with – there’s another company called Isetan who was very big at that time, and a lot of people went – and it’s a normal, it was a normal way of getting blanket distribution in Japan. We held out for Seibu because Seibu had, for us, credibility and we’d also visited them and it was the most sensational store – I mean there were three in Tokyo at that time and they were all just fabulous, I mean just amazing. And so we were, we I suppose sort of stuck out for Seibu to do the deal, really. And it was opportune because everybody signed a couple of years before us for, it was a normal period of three years, most people did it for three years, six seasons, and we were sort of a little bit upset I suppose that we hadn’t been approached, but in fact we were doing so much business with America at that time that it didn’t really matter. And in fact it was very good timing for us because it coincided with, as I said, America falling off a cliff and it was replaced immediately by the increased business of Japan, so commercially for us it was a very good move.

And had you realised that this is what it would involve, that sort of Seibu would take so much of the control out of your hands? Betty Jackson Page 377 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38)

Yes I think so, but because it’s so far away and you know, we rather welcomed that. I mean it is very good to have somebody rooting for you in a particular part of the world. I mean I don’t see how we could have increased it as much as it was increased by working from here and by having nobody out there. Because it is far away you do need people who understand the culture, you do need people who understand the way of working there and I think we were very pleased. It was just disappointing really that I felt so restricted creatively I think.

Were there other ways in which you were restricted creatively apart from the skirts?

They were very particular about certain fabrics, about certain ways of finishing things off, about – but no, I mean – and colour of course. There were certain colours that they wouldn’t touch with a bargepole. I mean and I’m sure it’s completely different now because we are talking twenty years ago and I’m sure the market has opened up completely and I mean you’d only need to look at Paul Smith’s business, who dines out on Japan you know, and he’s been hugely successful and it really is you know, the reason he is so successful was his success in Japan initially. So I’m sure it is quite a different situation now. What we were doing then was maybe a bit more extreme and a bit more cutting edge than they required and what they wanted was, what we should have – and if we’d have been bright enough at the time we’d have seen that actually what they really wanted was another collection, almost a diffusion of the brand and we could have done that rather more successfully rather than try and chip off or cut down or shape the brand to Japan’s way of thinking.

How d’you mean a diffusion of the brand?

Well, because they did want some things that were much more commercial, they wanted things that were far less extreme, they wanted things to be far more classic. You know, they had to have, as I said, you know a normal single breasted jacket and a pencil skirt in every single fabrication that we were doing and that really wasn’t what we were doing at that time.

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And what sorts of fabrics and colours would they not contemplate?

They loved if there was a high wool content or high silk content or high cotton content, but at that time there was a sort of reaction against that, you know, we were using lots of things that were mixes, you know, people were doing wonderful things with viscose mixes and things that looked like linen but weren’t, but performed differently and you know, and retained their crinkle when you’d washed the garment and all of that sort of thing. And they seemed to think that there was an added value if it was a hundred per cent wool or a hundred per cent silk or a hundred per cent cotton and so it was quite restricting in that respect, certain things that they wouldn’t… And for us in Europe polyester was no longer a dirty word, you know, it meant you could pleat things permanently, it meant you could you know, if you add a bit of polyester to some wool and you could put it in your washing machine or you know, it was much more stable and so you know, gone were those grim and ghastly Orlon days. You know, it was a different fibre, exciting things were happening and they really didn’t want that.

So in your debates and so forth with them, who won?

Well it was a compromise I suppose. We always did include… I mean they were fairly – we always did include, sorry – finish the sentence – we always did include the pencil skirt. I mean they were diligent in their work, they were also you know, completely consistent and fairly constant in their pressure. I mean they’d taken the brand on, they wanted to make money out of it and this was a way of doing it, so they were always incredibly polite and incredibly understanding about you know, your point of view, but the end was always, but sorry Miss Jackson, we need this, and so that’s what happened really.

And you mentioned earlier about the lifestyle there being so different from here with all this disposable money for fashion and so forth – how did that, or did that affect the way you designed apart from the demands of the company itself.

No, no, no, it was all part and parcel of the same thing. That was to do with you know, there is huge potential and we realised that there was huge potential which was why, you know at the beginning we were prepared to listen to what they wanted. And one of the Betty Jackson Page 379 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38) reasons you go into a licensing agreement is to go get their expertise, so we certainly understood that they knew more about the market than we did. Ultimately, what I didn’t like was the pressure on the collection creatively to be more classic in the approach, you know, to do the normal single breasted jacket with two pockets and a dart at the front, when I wanted to be much more experimental with shapes, and I wanted that to be the thrust of the collection. And in fact, our representation in Japan became very much a classic brand rather than a cutting edge brand.

And you talked about the very large scale that that market wanted from you – what sort of quantities are we talking about?

I think we were doing about two million pounds with them alone, so it was quite a significant part of our business.

And how did that compare with what you were doing here?

It was probably double the rest of the business.

I mean you…

Given the fact that America had stopped completely.

You said yourself you were a small company, how did you go about meeting this demand?

Oh manufacturing wasn’t a problem, because we were already up and running. We’d been used to doing a similar sort of turnover in America, slightly less, but you know, the business was growing each year and we had support from the bank and we were rolling over really quite nicely, you know, so there wasn’t a problem about it, it didn’t suddenly come out of the blue, there was a build-up and it increased our turnover and replaced what we had lost from America, so it remained in a stable situation. So we didn’t go from zero up to trying to produce two million for Japan, there’d been a gradual increase and we were easily doing that in America and Europe.

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And who and where were your suppliers at that time?

We were supplying – oh you mean our manufacturers? Sorry. Well we then started to manufacture in Italy. We had started off doing some knitwear in Italy and had gone over sort of really to sort of suss the whole thing out and met with an agent’s who introduced us to a wonderful little manufacturing unit who took us on and did the whole thing. We, at that time it was really – believe it or not – quite difficult to get a well-cut jacket made in this country and so that was a very important thing that happened and we went, we stayed with them for quite a long time and they gradually took on the whole of the collection; the silks and the jerseys and everything. We did the knitwear separately, also out of Italy, but some of that was also made in Scotland. And small bits of the softer things, the chiffons and some of the silk jerseys and the wool jerseys were still made in England. Gradually – and then of course as the whole feel of the collection changed, it became less and less rigid, you know, as this power dressing took control in the eighties, you know I wanted to take shoulder pads and interfacing out of things rather than put it in, so we became, I mean I wanted to explore much more the softer approach, the softer layered, casual jackets and coats that we subsequently did. And we then after a period of time brought the whole thing back to England, largely because of cost. The cost in Italy sort of went a little bit sky high and although the product was fantastic and we left very amicably and we still see her, she’s, I mean this particular manufacturer, she was a wonderful woman and she was sort of starting off and she’s now huge and does all of Michael Kors and lots of Italian designers and she’s brilliant, she’s a brilliant, brilliant woman. And it was largely to do with cost that we brought the whole thing – plus, in the four years that we were with Italy and selling to Japan, things in England manufacturing-wise got up to speed. People, you know there were lots of young designers like us with the same sort of quantities and so therefore manufacturing bases started to realise that they had to make a hundred jackets instead of the four thousand that they would do for Marks and Spencer’s. I mean the trouble has always been in this country that it’s geared to mass market production, which is of course why we’re losing it all now, it’s all going offshore. And we never really got to grips with, like they do in Italy, doing a two-tiered system. You know, they’ll do, you’ll go to a factory and they’ll do Valentino’s main range and they’ll make twenty of one dress and then they’ll do the Miss V Valentino diffusion line and they’ll make three thousand of them and they can handle, they’ll give the same care to both ranges and they can handle Betty Jackson Page 381 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38) the quantities. Well you go to any factory here and they’ll say, minimum of two hundred and fifty per colour per size before you walk in the place and they’re not really prepared to understand anything other than that, which has always been a problem out of this country. You know, or, it’s made in tiny little units where they really don’t have the sophisticated machinery to cope with the quality. However, we brought it back to London because by that time there were a couple of factories that we had got to know and we’d tried out, and we wanted sort of more control here, we were selling more and more to smaller boutiques rather than big ones and the factory in Italy really wanted distributions, well wanted to send it all from there, whereas we really definitely wanted control here to match it up with the knitwear and you know, and really control it here rather than it actually getting to the realms that we didn’t see anything, you know, and it just sort of happened and got delivered without us actually seeing it. So we brought it all back here and now we make some of it in Italy, we still make knitwear in Italy, we’re still with the same three factories in Italy that we’ve been with for quite a long time and they do it really brilliantly. We make some cashmere up in Scotland, but very little now. We make some out in Hong Kong now and we make some in Istanbul.

And the factories in Italy, or the factory that you’ve referred to with this woman running it – what was her name?

She was called Ensa, the factory was called – I can’t remember – Cieffi . Absolutely lovely. Wonderful woman. We went to see her not long ago and she’s very well and very, very successful, just moved into a huge modern building. But we have great regard for each other, she’s rather, she’s a wonderful woman.

And are you still using this?

No, we don’t work with her at all. We always talk about working together, but we don’t.

In what way was she, or is she wonderful?

She was just, you know, somebody with soul really I think. She just absolutely loved what she does. Her whole life is about – which a lot of Italians understand – is about producing Betty Jackson Page 382 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38) you know, a beautiful product and making it better than you can imagine and pleasing you and the client and they are very much involved in the whole aspect. Huge respect for designers, huge respect for product, huge, you know whereas, you know you go to other factories around other parts of the world and it’s really just clothes and it’s removed from the people who are making it, they have nothing to do with this product they are making. Well, at Ensa’s place everybody was thrilled about what they were making, everybody was involved in the end product, everybody’s you know, part, cog in the wheel was to do with making this thing exactly what the designer’s requirements were and you don’t get that feeling elsewhere I think.

And why do you think that there’s this difference here that the factories – when you said there they’ll make a small amount of this and a large amount of that and here they just want quantity orders – why d’you think that is?

I think because we are a high street led country. I think it’s always been important, I mean it is actually fantastic what happens on our high street I think, but I don’t think you’ll find very much manufactured in this country any more. I think also because Marks and Spencer’s ruled people’s lives for such a long time, rather tragically, I think that they had enormous power financially and people weren’t prepared to diversify.

But you yourself worked for Marks and Spencer didn’t you?

Indeed I did. [laughs]

When was that?

I was appointed consultant of ladieswear in – I don’t know, when was it? During the nineties.

So perhaps we’ll talk about that later. But I mean, to go back to this period, why was it so hard to get a jacket well cut here at that time?

Betty Jackson Page 383 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38)

Really because nobody would accept the quantities. Everybody wanted higher quantities, that was the only reason, and we didn’t sell enough. You know, if we have a collection, if we sell twelve pieces of one particular piece and we sell four hundred and fifty of another, we still need the twelve pieces made. Now anybody would actually go and say well, we’ll do the four hundred and fifty but you’re on your own for the twelve. But when you’re actually presenting a collection and everything goes together, the twelve pieces to us are just as important as the four hundred and fifty pieces. But they seemed to think that they couldn’t handle it – too much work, not enough return.

And did you ever think of using any manufacturers in Japan?

No. Why would we do that? The whole point about licence deal with European designers is that it is made in Europe. They don’t want Japanese merchandise, they have Japanese designers over there themselves. It has to have a European feel to it, they weren’t interested at all in us working in Japan.

What does the European feel mean to them?

I don’t know, but they actually made the distinction quite ferociously really. I’ve absolutely no idea. We cut and make different clothing than they do in Japan.

And what was it like for you going to Japan, being in Japan all those times?

Well at the beginning of course it’s a fantastic experience and then after it becomes work and then it became a bit of a drudge actually, I have to say. They were always completely polite and made us so welcome. I used to have to perform on a karaoke machine every time I went, which was horrific, and not in my nature at all, but they insisted and that was rather alarming and I used to get worked up on the plane about having to do that, thinking you know, ahead of what was to come. And we had a few dodgy moments with you know, giving me delicacies of fish that was still flapping for survival on the plate, which you know, but apart from that it was a very, very interesting experience really. It’s not somewhere that I would want to go and live, but I would advise anybody to go and see if you haven’t seen it, it is quite extraordinary. Betty Jackson Page 384 C1046/10 Tape 19 Side A (part 38)

Why wouldn’t you live there?

Too many people, crowds and crowds and crowds of people, too much pressure. Well, I would completely miss the British theatre and the British film thing and British music and everything about European life I would miss, the cultural aspect.

And when you sang in these karaoke things – where was this and what did you sing?

Oh, it was just grim. We used to have to go out with all the managers of the particular branches and so we’d go out for the most spectacular meals, I have to say, I mean you know, and I love Japanese food anyway, so you know, all of that was really lovely. But then they sort of went on and on and on, you know, they considered an evening to be a complete failure if you were in bed before four or if it came to a close before four in the morning, which was fine, but after the meal then you were expected to go and drink spirits at a bar and usually it had one of these machines so you know, it was all to do with, I don’t know, I mean it was the most bizarre experience really, but anyway. So yes, I was found to be singing My Way at one point in a bar in Tokyo which was really not good at all.

Your choice or theirs?

No, no. I had thought I’d be able to get away with actually not doing it and I kept insisting that you know, I couldn’t, but they really are very manipulative people and chose the thing, put it on and thrust the microphone.

And the words?

The words come up in English on the screen and you sing along.

[End of Tape 19 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 385 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

Tape 20 Side A [part 39]

So what overall, you know, were your thoughts about Japan and the experiences you had there?

Well I certainly, I mean I certainly, it became very much a thing that we had to do. I mean some of it was indeed pleasurable and I’d be churlish to say it wasn’t. What I did used to get annoyed about was, it is a very, very male run society over there and yet the women in the team, certainly the women who were looking after my brand were much, much cleverer on many levels than the men. The men are really very, the men that I met out there were very naïve and really rather silly and it’s the women who did everything and then the men, but then remain subservient to their male superiors and that sort of irritates me generally. And certainly, I mean they had I suppose, often they had difficulty with the fact that you know, I was a woman and I was head of the thing. David usually came with me and they deferred to him much more, which was absolutely fine because we run this thing together, but it irritates me when, it became very, very obvious over the period of time I was there that that indeed was the case.

Who were the men and who were the women that you were dealing with?

The managers of the brand. There was a team assigned to us, so there was a sort of sales team of maybe four or five people. I mean there were huge amounts of people, actually, which I never quite understood. When they visited us in London there were always six of them, seven of them, eight of them and it was always sort of alarming what everybody did. But they all had specific tasks, of which I really don’t know what they were, but they were specific to their country, you know things took a lot of manpower over there. Just meeting and greeting people took at least three people before you got into the building, you know it was… and then there was a brand manager, who was always male. There was then somebody under him who was usually female and usually the brightest spark on the team and was creative and clever and all of that stuff, and then there were probably about seven or eight underlings who scurried around doing different things from ironing the clothes to making you tea, to greeting buyers who came in, to greeting press who came in, to you know, whatever. Betty Jackson Page 386 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

And did you ever get any feedback from the other stores or the people who wore your clothes, that sort of thing?

No, no we didn’t. We went, well we often went to do store visits, but it was a sort of bit like, you know, it was sort of heralded and so there would be, it was organised and very controlled and so there would be certain of their best clients presumably that they invited to meet me, because visits were never so spontaneous, there was nothing – in fact there is nothing spontaneous about Japan, I think that’s how I would sum it up. It all is very carefully measured and carefully controlled and maybe that’s why I find it odd. Spontaneity’s a very important thing in life I think, but anyway. You’ve probably finished with Japan by now.

When you said it became a drag, why was that?

Well because of all those reasons really, because of the control, because of me not really liking the way they represented the collection of seeing from the sort of sales that we had from them that they were selling the more ordinary things rather than the special pieces in the collection. Even though I went across every season to explain the collection and talk them through and get them excited about it, orders would always come back, you know, the single breasted jacket and the knee skirt would always be, you know, throughout the collection in each fabrication would always be obviously their underpinning. And it disturbed me because that then went on to be how we were represented retail-wise.

And by this time you had Pascale?

Yeah.

Part of the time – how did that work out?

Work out, in what respect?

Well, did she stay here, who did she stay with? Betty Jackson Page 387 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

Yes, she did stay here, she – I don’t think she came to Japan, she came to America with us when she was only about six weeks old, but after that, no, we used to go on our own. It’s quite a task really to take, drag somebody halfway across the world. And also because our schedule was so heavy that it really wasn’t a sightseeing trip at all and I’ve never been of the opinion that I need them with me in my time. I think they’re better to not have their own schedule disturbed really. And she was at a stage where you know, mummy and daddy went, but mummy and daddy always came back, so that was fine.

And who did she stay with?

We had a wonderful girl helping us out, who stayed with us, oh fourteen years altogether, so that was good. Called Janette who looked after us and them for quite a while.

And how did it all come to an end, the Japanese contracts?

Oh, quite naturally. We knew it was only for three years. You know, by about year two we knew that we probably would not renew and so no overtures were made on our part to renew it and so they understood that we wanted it to end.

And tell me some more about the United States, about how you came to work there and what that involved and so on.

Similar sort of thing. Department stores and smaller shops came and bought us in London and then there was an awful lot of activity of course between – America was very, very interested in what was happening here with new young designers and we were a bit sort of hot stuff out there really I suppose, because we were doing something that nobody else was doing from their domestic market of course. There were not any American designers who were doing what we were doing in such a radical way, it was much more classic, it was much more… their designers were much more simple, understated, you know, classic. So there were lots of trips, I mean lots of trips, collective trips. You know, Saks Fifth Avenue organised one when there was Wendy, myself, Bodymap – who else – and they invited us all to go over. I can’t remember who else, I think there were five or six of us altogether, Betty Jackson Page 388 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39) and they invited us all to go over on a promotional trip and we did shows within stores and you know, looked around New York and had a jolly time, really. It was great. And gradually – and I think, I mean I think we sold to most department stores at that time, I know there was a problem of distribution. We sold to Saks, we sold to Bergdorf’s, we sold to Barney’s, we sold to Neiman Marcus, we sold to Lord and Taylor, we sold to I Magnin, we sold – I think that’s all of them. So we were really coast to coast. Pardon?

Bloomingdale’s?

We did sell to Bloomingdale’s, but then we stopped because we sold to Saks instead and we couldn’t do the two, Saks required us not to sell to Bloomingdale’s. And I don’t think we ever sold to Macy’s either, because that was also big volume, but rather a lower price bracket. So you know, it was big. And we also went on a trip across America where Neiman Marcus asked us to do shows within stores as well, so we went to New York and then we went to Dallas and then we went to Los Angeles and San Francisco and that was, it was all very good. And they were very, very, very receptive and absolutely loved what the Brits were doing at that time. It was sort of a first wave of newness and excitement I suppose, and we were doing things that they’d never seen before. You know, it was all very extreme fashion. So that was very exciting.

What sort of things had they never seen before?

I think, I think the boldness of it all really. I mean if you think you know, of what Bodymap were doing; prints and knitwear and I was doing you know, paintings on fabric and cutting them up into cloth, into garments and you know, the size of everything was so extreme and you know, the fact that you know, this pattern with pattern. I mean it was a huge new thing really, I think we were you know, forging new ground really. Collectively certainly.

And why did Saks not allow you to sell to Bloomingdale’s?

Oh well lots of people had you know, funny things. You know, if you sell to me we want it exclusively and… Betty Jackson Page 389 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

But you were selling to others.

We were selling to others. We were selling to Bergdorf’s as well because Bergdorf’s is a different market. We were selling to Neiman’s because they effectively don’t have a store in New York and we were selling to them for the other side of America and for Dallas which is their main distribution centre. So that, they happily sat next to each other. I think Bloomingdale’s at that time were considered very, very downmarket. It was a bit, I suppose the difference between House of Fraser and Harvey Nichols if I can make that comparison, not to be derogatory to any… or maybe Debenhams or John Lewis and Harvey Nichols. It’s a different level of merchandise and it’s a different level of customer too.

And did you like going there?

I absolutely loved New York. I still love New York, but I only love it for a little while. Again, I don’t think it’s a place I could live, but I absolutely love it.

What d’you love about it?

I love the energy, I love the look of the place, I love the fact that anything’s possible, I love the dirt, I love the noise, I love the beauty, I love the skyscrapers, I love the weather, it’s so hot and then it’s so cold and I love the whole thing. Plus, I’ll tell you what actually happened the very first time. We got into a limousine – well the first time we went was lovely, we went, David and I went – this wasn’t the collective trip – David and I went and went very sort of grandly and took the helicopter and landed on the PanAm building and it was snowing at the time and the Manhattan skyline in the evening with all the lights coming on and snowflakes falling was completely magical. A limousine then picked us up, took us to the hotel and stopped – and when we got into, just past Central Park we got up to where we were going and it stopped on a stop sign and Christopher Reeve walked across the zebra crossing – I mean who was at that time Superman, you know and poor thing, and tragedy happened, but it was just so [laughs] magical. And he walked across with his wife, he was going for a walk in Central Park and we all, you know, we’re in this Betty Jackson Page 390 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39) limousine, ‘Oh my God, it’s Superman!’. And so you know, at the time it was just sort of all these sort of silly things happened that were quite extraordinary really. It was great, I’ve always had the most wonderful time there. Always been quite different as well, never ever, ever the same. New York moves at such a pace, it’s, I mean now when we go it’s completely different and our trips are of course very different now because we don’t sell to all those places now so we can go much more anonymously and have a nice time now, but it’s a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful place I think.

And where did you stay?

Oh we stayed at lots of places. We used to stay at the Penn Plaza, we used to stay at the Pierre, we used to stay at the Lowell round the corner off Madison. We stayed in very nice places. We now usually stay at the SoHo Grand, I like staying down in SoHo now, so we usually stay at the SoHo Grand now when we go.

And how did that come to an end, I mean you’ve said the economy…

Well, it was literally that. I mean our clothes became far too expensive with the exchange rate and the duty payable and all of that, you had to really times our selling point by four. Whereas you know, here at this moment when I speak, we’re up to say maybe two point seven. So you know, even before they got it on the shop floor they had to times it by four – huge. I mean I don’t think they could get the prices for it, it became ridiculously priced out of the market. And it coincided of course with their domestic designers having a look at what was happening in Europe and getting a grip on things, you know. I mean suddenly Donna Karan emerged, I mean fantastically strongly. Suddenly Calvin Klein came out of his shell, you know, and they all started to do younger, more special, and things that because of course they were based there, was completely right for their market, and at a price that they could afford because it was domestic merchandise so you know, didn’t have the same tariffs put on it. And so we actually got elbowed out very rapidly indeed, there was no soft cushion. It was in, you know, one moment Saks were buying a hundred and twenty grand a season and the next they said, no they wouldn’t like to see the collection because they weren’t able to buy it because of our price structure. And it was as immediate as that. It absolutely fell off a cliff. And I think actually caused an awful lot of Betty Jackson Page 391 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39) those people to be in great difficulties. I mean certainly, I don’t think Wendy ever recovered from her sales, you know, the slump and I think that Bodymap didn’t either. You know, so two of the great names in the eighties I think suffered because of that, but then, as I said, remarkably, Japan came on board just as that finished, so it saved our bacon good and proper.

Why d’you think Japan came on board for you and not for these other people?

Because, as I said before, other people had already signed licence deals previous, you know. They’d been going one or two years and they signed a licence deal with Japan, for three years, so their licence deals were coming to an end and ours was just beginning.

And whose decision was it not to you know, not to renew after three years? I don’t mean just in your case, I mean in general. Did the Japanese have a policy of only, you know, having people for three years?

No, I’m sure, I’ve absolutely no idea, I mean I can only speak from our experience and certainly we didn’t know anybody else that had had any longer contract than that, so amongst our contemporaries I don’t think there was anybody else. And I mean at that time it was really before, I mean it was before Paul Smith had started his womenswear collection, one sort of knew of him being so important out there, but he was a menswear designer so for us, that was a completely different market and a completely different, you know, set of designers. So we didn’t really pay much attention.

And how did you feel when that market just collapsed like that?

Well, it was a very worrying time, it was a very worrying time and we had to regroup, really. I mean there was a period when we had been used to you know, being in a very, very healthy profit and like I said previously, thank goodness we’d bought the building we were in and all of that stuff was sort of done and taken care of thanks to David, but I think I said right at the beginning, you know, there was a huge success in the early years that I don’t think we ever thought would stop, which I don’t think you do. If you’re successful you can’t imagine it ever stopping, but it did, so it was a hard lesson to learn. We had to Betty Jackson Page 392 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39) think about sales, we had to think about the structure of the company, we had to think about the structure of everybody’s lives I suppose. We had to cut down, we had to you know, pull back, there were lots of projects that we couldn’t do because we didn’t have the money to do it and generally it was a very hard time. And plus, interest rates in this country were up to about fourteen per cent or something, I mean it was grim, it was grim.

So what and how did you cut?

We cut down - well I mean we were still very small as far as staff was concerned, but we certainly didn’t take anybody extra on. We cut down, we started to use freelance people rather than permanently employed people, certainly on the technical side. We cut down the workroom considerably. We cut down staff in production. Whereas we’d had a permanent quality controller in-house, we talked to our manufacturers about their quality control taking more responsibility and you know, we generally, you know it’s obvious, you know you have a certain level of sales and so we knew always what money we had to carry us through the next six months. And one always has to speculate of course, I mean we didn’t run into a room and shut the door and start to cry, we actually, you know, it’s then that you need to do your best work really.

Did you actually sack anybody?

Er… I suppose we did. We’ve sacked lots of people over the years. It’s not a nice thing and it’s not something that I remember with glee, but I’m sure we asked people to look for other positions.

And how, how hard was that?

It’s quite hard to do. It’s quite hard, that’s all. It’s quite hard. I’ve never found this sort of thing easy. We’re not a big company, it’s a very personal relationship goes on. Everybody’s involved in the end product, everybody knew the difficulties we were in. There isn’t a hierarchical situation here, we never hid anything from anybody, sales were open to everybody to see, people saw the writing on the wall so it was something we did with regret. Betty Jackson Page 393 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

And you were talking about a downturn, but I mean that’s here as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, yeah, yeah, it was actually, yeah, I mean there was a big recession went on, if you remember. It was grim.

Which had the greater effect on you, what was happening here or what was happening there?

Abroad, because we were selling less here. It certainly made us focus very – in fact that was our policy really. We thought we had ignored the domestic market for too long and we actively sought it out rather than thinking that we could just sort of let it tick along really.

How did you do that?

By inviting more people to see the collection, by opening up in this country, by you know, organising to see people, by you know, just generally being a bit more open. We used to often refuse to sell to people simply because we didn’t, either we didn’t know who they were or – we were not very proactive in sales because it had all come so easily I suppose. We didn’t even have a sales team, we all used to do it together. It’s only very recently we’ve had a sales team [laughing] in fact, which is ridiculous, but yeah, it all used to sort of happen. And production used to take orders, I used to take orders, assistants used to take orders, you know, everybody used to help really. There wasn’t one person who was responsible for sales, which is extraordinary really.

And how many people had you been employing and what did you then go down to?

I think there’d been maybe sixteen or eighteen of us and I think we probably went down to ten, twelve people. Some of the people came back on a freelance basis, some of the people went freelance, you know, seamstresses and pattern cutters went freelance and then came back to us. And spread themselves around a bit, so that was quite painless because that was sort of easy for them to do. Betty Jackson Page 394 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

And how is it determined – I’ve often wondered this, just looking at clothes on a rail – how is it decided, this garment will cost this, or this range will cost this?

Garments are very simple. You work out how much a garment costs to make, which means that you work out how much metreage of fabric and the fabric costs a certain amount, so you times that by the metreage and that’s your cost of fabric – per one garment I’m talking about now. You work out the price of the trims, which includes the fastenings, the zips, the bindings, the linings, the – whatever – you add that on. You add then on a time for the CMT, which is cut, make and trim, which is really the cost of cutting, a cutter to cut the individual garment, a seamstress to make it and a trimmer to trim it, hang it on a hanger and put it in a bag, all of which costs a certain amount of time. You convert that into money and you add it all up and you then add on your percentage as a company, a percentage, in order to cover overheads like rent, electricity and other people’s salaries. And that’s what it costs.

And do you have a more or less – how’s your percentage worked out?

We try and work on something like a hundred and five, a hundred and ten per cent on top of the initial cost of one garment. We very rarely achieve that, because when all of the costings come in, we look at the range collectively and there’s a sales meeting and a production meeting and we say what the mathematics means that this particular garment costs. And then everybody goes, and then you convert it to a retail price as well, which means that you then times it by two point seven or two point eight sometimes – depends, you know, usually department stores are at least two point seven to two point eight. And everybody looks at that and thinks emotionally whether or not this is what this garment is worth. And there’s either you know, screams of horror or everybody says it’s okay. But generally it all comes from, you know, we structure the collection right at the beginning by what the price of the fabric is and if it’s particularly special or if it’s particularly embellished – I mean there’s some things that we really can’t help the price and our manufacturing prices are obviously higher because we make so little. If we were producing three, four, five thousand of something, which is part of the diffusion ran business, we do do that for people like TK Maxx and Costco and people like that, then the Betty Jackson Page 395 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39) price reduces dramatically and it’s made in a completely different way. But, you know now our coats and jackets have special lining, they have printed lining, they have binding, they have different sorts of lining, they have embroidery inside, they have, you know, secret pockets inside. I mean we require them to be, you know you want the garment to be as lovely inside as it is out and sometimes quite surprising inside, so all of that costs money. And that’s regretfully of course why things are so expensive. I think we’re comparable to most of our contemporaries out there, I think they’re pretty good value actually for some of it. But it is often why our percentage suffers and we will, in order to you know, give something a chance out there, we will actually take a smaller percentage on it as far as we’re concerned in order to make it a viable proposition out in the world.

How does your percentage compare with other companies?

I’ve no idea.

How did you determine that it’ll be a hundred and five, hundred and ten, whatever?

Well, I say I have no idea, I’m now going to say because it’s normal, it’s what everybody does, so I suppose [laughing] I must know it’s what everybody does. I mean as far as mass market is concerned, I knew that that was what we did at Wendy’s, I knew that that’s what we did at Quorum. I mean the Cooper’s range worked on a much lower percentage, he would sometimes do as little as thirty-five or forty per cent mark-up, but that was also why the company wasn’t so successful really, you need to sell an awful lot to actually make your overheads, you know, at that level. And it’s just what we’ve always done, we always just timesed it by two, you know, hundred per cent on it. It was only when you know, we got into the range being much more complicated and requiring more time and more effort to produce that we upped it to a hundred and five and hundred and ten if possible.

And is that the same – because you have another range, BJ2 don’t you?

No that’s slightly less mark-up I think, you know, it’s about seventy-five, eighty on that.

And why is that? Betty Jackson Page 396 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side A (part 39)

Because there’s more volume involved.

Just to put a marker on you know, dates, where we are chronologically now – early nineties, end of the eighties?

Yeah, I think it is about then. Sorry, I’m hopeless at this. D’you want me to go and get my biography, I mean… It’s just terrible isn’t it, when everything was. Yeah, I think it would be, yeah when, yeah, nineties. Should have had it here really here with all the time, shouldn’t we, it just takes her ages to print it off, that’s why I’m not rushing to do it because I haven’t got a copy with me and it’s on a file somewhere, you know an extensive biography, but it would take her a while to find it.

[End of Tape 20 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 397 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40)

Tape 20 Side B [part 40]

During all this period you were also teaching quite a bit – can you say some more about that?

Well, in eighty-one, I mean right at the beginning, Joanne Brogden who was head of the School of Fashion at the Royal College, asked me to be a part-time tutor there, so I did for quite a number of years, one day a week tutelage, which was sort of odd because I wasn’t much older than the students there, but it was great and it was a very exciting thing to do. As well as that [interruption] – sorry.

[break in recording]

Okay, we’ve just had an interruption, about, I don’t know, ten, fifteen minutes or something – d’you want to explain why?

Yes, sorry, my son has just gone on his sort of trip round the world and he was just on the telephone from Hong Kong so I just had to go and phone him back so I could speak to him, so I’m extremely sorry for the interruption, but it was very nice to talk to him, know that he’s alright.

How is he and what’s he doing?

He’s, well he’s going to do the usual nonsense, you know, going to see bits that he hasn’t seen, so he starts off in Hong Kong then goes to Thailand and Singapore and Australia, New Zealand and America and Mexico and then back to London.

This is a gap year thing?

It is, he’s at university from September so he’s got quite a lot to fit in before then.

Where’s he going?

Betty Jackson Page 398 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40)

King’s College.

And what’s he going to study?

French and film. That’s quite enough about Oliver I think. [laughs]

We were talking actually about your teaching.

Yes. And so anyway, I was invited to, there was a post for a part-time tutor at the Royal College, in the Fashion School, and I went along and I absolutely loved it and it was great because you know, I didn’t feel so removed from the students, you know. But of course what I was doing, you know right in the beginning of course it was exciting for them I suppose too, because I sort of was starting my own company and getting a lot of attention then and so, and yeah, I went in there one day a week for quite a long period of time, certainly whilst Joanne Brogden was Head of Fashion and during Jocelyn Stevens’ reign as Rector. And then her second in command, she retired and Alan Couleridge took over and then there was a bit of a kerfuffle and another person, John Miles came in as overall Head of Textiles on fashion and I didn’t know John terribly well, but he then sort of changed college policy a little bit and started to include people from vocational and BTech courses in order, I think in principle, it was right in order to open up the college, he didn’t like the elitist aspect of it. I must say I’m not a fan of elitism in any respect, but I do think that the standard went down because of the policy and when you – with the best will in the world, plus, I’d by that time been there for six or seven years – I thought it was time for somebody else to do it and when you’re not really in tune with the person who’s the head of the whole thing then it’s a bit tricky, you know. You’re asked to endorse something that maybe you don’t agree with and it certainly wasn’t anything personal with him. You know, I was also doing quite a lot of, not really teaching elsewhere – I did teach for a while at Ravensbourne, but I was external assessor on lots of courses – Leicester, Ravensbourne, up in the north, De Montfort, Preston. So I was sort of doing quite a bit of that sort of giving back moment, but I loved the Royal because of the commitment of the students and because of course it’s an MA course and by then you’ve been through all the BA shit and you’re fairly committed. And it also meant that you’re crème de la crème, because it’s quite a small number of people, and the thing about the Royal in those days Betty Jackson Page 399 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) was that it really was and the standards were terribly high and each student was individual and that’s why I loved it so much. You didn’t ever have to go in there and say, where the bloody hell is everybody at ten o’clock in the morning, because you know, everybody was eager and you know, I saw through people like Eric Bremner who’s the designer, has been the designer for Sportmax, MaxMara, Ian his contemporary is also at MaxMara. People like Philip Treacy. You know, a very exciting bunch of people went through during that time, so I was pleased to be…

Philip Treacy, who was he?

Philip Treacy’s a hat designer, very well-known milliner. And I was pleased to be connected with the place. When I then sort of tried it out again at BA colleges, I found I wasn’t so interested. First of all because I was quite shocked at the standard in some BA colleges, I was quite shocked about you know, the number crunching, having to see so many students and really not having time to spend with everybody to, you know, that meant anything for them. And there was a sort of quality missing, I thought. And then I thought I was just getting a bit grumpy about the whole thing so I sort of stopped it. So I did carry on being external assessor in various places, but now I don’t do teaching any more because they don’t ask me any more, except at the Royal where I was Visiting Professor for three years and I’m a Fellow and stuff and I go in and do crits and see the first years sort of when they arrive and then I see the second years when they’re doing their collections. So it’s a nice involvement to have.

And when you were teaching there your one day a week, what were you teaching?

Well I was seeing the fashion students, they were involved in various projects throughout their year, you know, I certainly wasn’t involved in the organisation of the academic year, so whatever they were working on, you know, I sort of ran or – no, didn’t run, no that’s, I didn’t, I was very much part-time. I went in, I talked to them about their work, I you know, helped them out with suppliers or solved any particular problems that they were having and I talked to them individually. And gave tutorials, or what was involved in collective crits, was involved in you know, in any project that was going on at that time. I mean the whole academic year, the Royal College has always been particularly hot on their Betty Jackson Page 400 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) involvement with manufacturers and the link with industry and you know, so a lot of it was running projects that were linked with industries and then presenting, then putting the students’ point of view, putting the manufacturer’s point of view to the students, you know, and generally being a sort of bit in between really, I suppose.

So, did you go in with your own agenda to lecture at any point, or was it only overseeing projects?

No, I didn’t, it doesn’t take the form of lecturing. I mean maybe to set briefs, or I did do individual tutorials with people, it depended on the time of year. If projects were going on then, you know, one was sort of thrust into the design studios and I – because everybody was under such pressure – I made sure I went and saw each student individually to see how they were going on and you know, we’d approach problems and we’d talk about things and then they’d get on with it for the next week and then I’d see them the following week. D’you know what I mean, and I just kept them up to scratch with deadlines or whatever they had to do. Other times during the year meant work reviews or individual tutorials, or you know, if somebody was having a particularly difficult time, you know you’d hoick them off and have a bit of a chat with their work, and it sort of varied throughout the academic year really.

And was there any sort of particular ideal or direction or, you know?

No, I think when you teach I think the whole point is, and certainly the point about the Royal College, is that an awful lot of people – and even more now, because Wendy Dagworthy is now in charge and doing a brilliant job – the whole point about the Royal College, the MA course is to sort of get you ready for the world outside. So what they try and do is get a lot of people with different attitudes or different concepts or you know, different sorts of designers through the doors, and that’s one of the things that I used to explain to the first years right early on, that there’ll be a lot of people want to see your work here, there’ll be a lot of people who have an opinion about it and there’ll be a lot of people who have different opinions about it and it’s up to you to walk this minefield of everybody’s opinion and then choose the best for you, and then act on that. But at least choose somebody’s, don’t ignore everybody’s, because you know, there’s this diversity of Betty Jackson Page 401 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) people going through the doors, so actually there’s somebody to suit you. And I think it’s very important that one gives one’s opinion from one’s personal design philosophy point of view, but nevertheless, what you’re dealing with is individual designers and embryonic designers in a way, and what you’re there for is to bring out the best in them, is to encourage them in their design philosophy, is to back them up with their strengths and their, maybe point out their weaknesses, but certainly not to talk about what you do, it’s all about them. And if you can, you know, do it by example of the pitfalls that you’ve fallen into, then all to the good. Or if you can show them that you’ve had the same particular problem, but to do with you know, a certain aspect of your own work and this is how you solved it and you do it by example, but certainly, I mean I don’t think I ever – well I hope I didn’t ever – thrust my own work on them. I don’t think that’s the role at all of a tutor. Although I’m sure they were aware of the sort of things I was doing, you know.

How did you translate your philosophy for their use?

Well I don’t think my philosophy came into it at all. I think what one wanted to understand, what was their philosophy. And some people had got it sorted out, some people you could see huge potential lurking inside that needed an outlet, or needed to be brought out, or needed to actually find a way to have a voice. And other people were maybe not so talented that actually you could suggest that you know, being part of a team might be better [laughs] for them. So you know, it was all to do – and I still believe that teaching is this – is to you know, you pass on a bit of knowledge, but you certainly, and certainly in fashion and anything creative you’ve got to try and understand and develop the new talent that is put before you, really.

And what sort of pitfalls did you warn them about – can you remember any of them?

Millions of them, I mean you know, too numerous to mention. Sometimes you know, it was just a question of designer’s block, you know, and you sort of kicked them out and told them to go somewhere and have a look at something, or go and have a look at an exhibition or you know, something, you’d seen something that was completely inspirational and you’d say, well why don’t you see this film or you know, or you know, I know what you’re trying to say and go to that place and have a look at this and you know, Betty Jackson Page 402 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) maybe it’ll just inspire you about colour or detail or whatever. I mean that’s the sort of thing you did.

And what were the people like who were running the place at that time?

Joanne Brogden was magnificent really, she sort of, she’d been there for a long, long time under, under – what’s she called? Oh. Jenny Ironside, she was her assistant and before that was Madge Garland, so she was only sort of number three Head of Fashion. And her second in command was a woman called Ann Tyrell who is now part of the BFC and still active in…

BFC?

The British Fashion Council. And runs her own consultancy business. And then there was Alan Couleridge who was much more hands-on and is a brilliant draughtsman and draws beautifully and he was really there for the graphics sort of side of it. And then there were various technicians and secretaries and goodness knows what. But Joanne ran it with a sort of particular you know, idea in mind. She was a larger than life figure and really quite remote, you know, and I think quite terrifying to students. I mean, we’d have collective crits when she was incredibly erudite and you know, could cut people down to [laughing] size – ah! Really quite scary. And so I’m sure I was there to be sort of, you know the person that sort of said, you know, it’s okay, I understand, you know she… [laughs] But anyway, it was a good place, it was an exciting place. And you know, now I go in and I’m shocked at how little money these people live on and everybody now has to have a part- time job and everybody hasn’t got time and everybody, it’s really terrible what students have to deal with and colleges as well, you know, the number of overseas students that have to be taken in just to fund the course and it’s really, it’s a worrying thing, education at the moment, it’s a worrying thing for the future. Although, having said that, we seem to maintain fantastic standards and sort of internationally still so I think, you know, with St Martin’s and the Royal being leading lights. And the London College of Fashion getting more and more important, you know, started an MA course and what it’s doing there is very good, but it’s to do with you know, money raising things. It’s shocking, really, it’s shocking. Betty Jackson Page 403 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40)

And in your work as assessor, what were you actually…?

Oh there it was much more distant. You went up, the role of an assessor is to be external assessor, to assess the level of degree that each student attains. So during the year – I think there were three visits altogether, the final one being you know, the interview and the assessment. But you were supposed to make yourself aware of the student’s work before they got to the end of the course, so a couple of visits were arranged before. And then it was really quite a formal thing, because you’re there as a sort of independent adviser I suppose, and actually you know, you have the power as well. You know if the course wants somebody to get a first and you think they’re crap, then you have the power to mark them down. And similarly the course leaders think that there’s somebody not so good, you can actually mark them up and then argue your case in front of the board. So it is quite a, it’s quite an important task. I mean I still meet people and they say, oh, you gave me a so- and-so degree, which can be quite frightening really, but anyway, I hope I’ve been always fair. And I mean often on three year courses, on BA courses as well, the staff of the college obviously get to know particular students quite well and there can be likes and dislikes and there can be personal difficulties, and you’re supposed to come in and look at the work and look at the ability of the student and assess that. And there’s an interview that takes place and then you look at the exhibition that they’ve put on and you assess it accordingly.

And what are you actually looking for?

Competence, creativity, seriousness, you’re looking to be surprised, enchanted, you’re looking for passion, you’re looking for all of the things that are necessary for you to survive, really.

And can you remember any situations where, as you said, you know, you had a very different view from perhaps the college’s?

Yeah, there have been a couple, I mean I can’t remember their individual names at all, but there have been a couple that I’ve wanted to, that I haven’t agreed with the course leaders, yeah. Betty Jackson Page 404 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40)

Can you remember any particular instances without naming names?

Mm. A couple of times there was one course - and I don’t think I should say which college it was – but there were at least three people, well I think there were five people on the course marked for firsts as far as the college staff were concerned, and I thought only two were worthy.

Why?

Because I didn’t think they were good enough.

And what was missing?

All those things; creativity, passion, competence – all of those things. And compared with the two that were worthy, they were considerably lower in ability. And I think the case that I was, that I am talking about was entirely a question of personal likes and dislikes being, overlapping where they shouldn’t have done.

And I mean back to your own life, I mean in your own sphere as it were – Oliver was born?

Eighty-seven.

Eighty-seven. And how did that go?

Ugh! [laughs] Well, I was exhausted. Pascale was born in eighty-six, we had also moved house, well we moved house when Oliver was about three weeks old. Our domestic life was pretty chaotic. I mean I have to say that we did have the most wonderful help during the time that they were little and she stayed with us for fourteen years and you know, she was just wonderful and was part of our lives. Never lived with us, which I think was our saving grace, I think things go wrong. And we always jealously guarded our evenings and weekends - I mean not so much evenings because often we worked late and often we Betty Jackson Page 405 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) weren’t, when the children were very small, you know they were often in bed, or certainly in pyjamas and you know, da da da. And I never really thought that, I always thought it was important that they lived their life and they would learn that maybe our schedules weren’t always compatible and it’s always been a really important thing for me, because I think we could have broken our necks both ways. And really why do you make a child stay up till ten o’clock just because you’re home late, it’s ridiculous. In my opinion. It’s just the way I’ve always thought. And plus they went into the French education system, so they went to a maternelle at school when they were two and a half, so this is quite early on, so also they were having pretty exhausting days by the time they were two and a half, so the last, I mean they were completely knackered by eight o’clock in the evening and were in bed asleep. So, but weekends we jealously guarded for us and it was always full of other people with friends with similar age children and you know, stuff like that. So it was a really tiring time domestically. I’m happy to say that I still to this day have never hoovered my stairs, so it’s not something that – and I’ve always said, because I work, I’m going to actually have somebody else do that for me and you know, there’s a priority here obviously, you can’t be everything. But definitely I was exhausted, definitely there is a period of time where I really didn’t know what I was doing, and definitely I think for about a year and a half I completely lost the plot, when my children were very, very young. And the whole thing coincided with going to America, going to Japan, changing the manufacturing base to Italy, press activity being huge, two shows a season, two shows a year, you know various projects during the year, winning loads of awards, teaching, all of this thing, you know it was, our lives were really quite busy. So it was a chaotic period that then calmed down a little bit towards the nineties.

I’m just looking at your list of awards. You can’t have totally lost the plot if you kept winning awards.

[laughs] Yes, but it was on work that I’d already done, not work that I was doing then. Then there was quite a, you know, I think you know as well and I hope I’m critical enough of myself to you know, I know when something is good and I know when something is not so good and I definitely would say that even, that my particular role suffered dreadfully. There was a time where I wasn’t creative enough, I didn’t give enough direction. And then I got it back, but I just think there were too many other pressures on. And plus we were Betty Jackson Page 406 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) running a small business, you know, both of us together and learning all the time how to cope with staff and you know, and we were selling and we were delivering and we were, you know, it was an extraordinary time, really.

How did that express itself, that not being creative enough and so on?

Well, I think you can tell if you look at the collections during that time. I think we didn’t really suffer – and plus, like I said going back to the Japan thing, they were wanting things that were much more classic, so they were not encouraging with regard to the more exceptional parts of the collection or the more extreme parts of the collection. And I suppose I probably was just too tired at that time to actually fight back or, I think I accepted quite a lot of things that I may be, with retrospect possibly shouldn’t have. But I am very self-critical, I mean I will actually, even now where I do think, you know, I think the collections are a million times better, I think the product is a million times better and I think the diversification is fantastic now, what we’re doing. It only lasted a couple of years, but you see that is like three or four seasons, which is a lot to get it wrong, to go off the boil.

But can you be a bit more concrete about what you mean by get it wrong?

I think we did the same old shapes, I think we weren’t innovative enough as far as the patterns and the constructions of the garments were concerned. I think the concept wasn’t clear enough, I think the direction we were following was possibly to do with what we had success with before. I think that there wasn’t very much that was new coming out of us at that time.

You talked before about the vogue then for power dressing and that that was not your thing and never was your thing – I mean it seems to me there’s sort of, possibly a problem there, that if this is the vogue and that’s not your style, I mean how do you resolve a problem like that?

Well you don’t, there’s nothing you can do about that. You have to sort of run along and say, this is still my vision, this is still my – I mean it probably all coincided, but what I’m Betty Jackson Page 407 C1046/10 Tape 20 Side B (part 40) saying is that at that time my vision should have been much, much stronger than it was and I think because of everything else in my life I didn’t have time and I didn’t – I mean generally what I really remember is being absolutely exhausted most of the time. And you know, and that was my life really, there was a lot of pressure and you know, and I think all of it wasn’t good. Having said that, you know, we got through it and it was a period of time that thank goodness is behind and you know, whatever it is you learn, don’t you, so of course we are aware that any modicum of success we have now won’t last for ever, but then the good thing is that nothing does last for ever. Nothing does last for ever, neither good nor bad. So it’s one thing that you remember very, very clearly.

And you’d had this very difficult birth with Pascale, very precipitous…

And the same, exactly the same scenario with Oliver, because they knew what was coming so they knew what to do with Oliver, so it was then planned six weeks before, because my doctor at the time knew that I couldn’t hang on any longer. And knew that it would be damaging for the baby.

So it was the same sort of pattern?

Same sort of pattern. Booked into the same hospital, same sort of pattern. She did it very bravely. Oliver was slightly smaller actually, and had to go into intensive care when he was born. Six weeks premature is – they’re tiny babies when [laughing] they’re six weeks premature. But she was just, I mean Mary Stopes was brilliant, she was brilliant because she’d done it before and she knew how strong Pascale was and you know, she knew in theory there was no danger, I don’t think she would have put either of us in any danger, but he was smaller and did have to go to intensive care. For two days.

[End of Tape 20 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 408 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

Tape 21 Side A [part 41]

…2005, day after election day, interviewing Betty Jackson and we’re starting tape twenty- one. And Betty, there were just a couple of questions I had related to Japan, which we talked about last time. You said there were certain colours which the Japanese wouldn’t touch with a bargepole and I just wondered what those colours were?

They were quite tricky about dark colours, funnily enough, because one always associates dark colours with Japanese, but maybe it’s because their own merchandise is so dark. They were quite keen on anything that was pastel, anything that was, you know, looked like it had been watered down. Brown they hated. But maybe, you know this is, maybe have just have been particular to our licensee, because I wouldn’t have thought, I don’t think the Japanese have an aversion, a fundamental aversion to certain colours in their culture. But they do, I mean I think at that time as well, I mean they do like sort of pretty, girly colours. They did at that time anyway, so we were encouraged to include those in the collection.

And my other question was, you said something about there’s a big difference in cut between the UK and Japan – I wondered what you meant by that?

Erm, you’d have to remind me what I said. The manufacturer I think I said…

Differences in the ways of cutting cloth, between Japan and Britain. Because we talked about why you didn’t use Japanese designers – er, Japanese manufacturers.

Oh yes. No, no, no, it was to do with the making of the garment. Because they actually manufacture things in a sort of very flat, two-dimensional way. I think that really is traditionally Japanese because of course all their, most of their, I mean their original kimono shape is a very sort of flat shape that then unfolds into a three-dimensional thing and I think that that’s intrinsic to the way Japanese designers make clothes as well. We, or I mean I personally found that rather fabulous, but it was made quite clear that when they were buying a European label they didn’t want it to be manufactured in Japan. Partly because of that, but partly to do with the sort of snobbish value of it coming from Europe Betty Jackson Page 409 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41) and therefore costing much more and therefore being aspirationally affordable. So on two levels they didn’t want Japanese manufacturing.

What d’you mean by flat?

Well, instead of, well I mean if you think about the way a kimono is constructed, it’s constructed of various triangles and rectangles and straight shapes, which then eventually fold round your body, but the essential construction is flat, so that’s what I mean. And western pattern cutting is built very much on curves; curve of an armhole, curve of a body shape. Japanese armholes are straight, with corners. [laughs] So that’s the difference.

And how does that affect the hang or the lie of a garment on a person?

Well it means it just, it is completely different. Imagine putting a kimono on and imagine putting a structured jacket on, that’s what they were talking about. So a structured jacket that’s been tailored and made in England or Europe has a completely different quality to a Japanese kimono.

And we started just now, I just let out that it was election day yesterday and perhaps I ought not to just let that go by, but to ask you about your interest or involvement in what’s just happened.

Well yes, I went to vote and foolishly stayed up for part of the early morning because it was riveting viewing really, so feeling a bit the worse for wear today [laughs], today, but only through lack of sleep, not for anything remotely exciting. But anyway, so yes it was quite a, it was sort of quite predictable I think, but we’ll see, there’s a few sort of interesting moments last night, but we’ll see. It’s his birthday today as well, so I suppose he’s feeling really quite pleased with his personal achievement.

Tony Blair?

Yes.

Betty Jackson Page 410 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

What was riveting particularly to you?

Oh, just – well first of all it was, I was actually amazed at how the BBC sort of did it and tried to make it into the most exciting programme. There was much more this year than Peter Snow and his swingometer. They’d gone mad on computer graphics and holistic sort of visual interpretations and you know, the studio was sort of on two floors and was quite interesting. And everybody, you know, all the heavyweight journalists were there at some point, so they obviously pulled out all the stops. I actually didn’t watch channel three, I must say, I stuck rooted to…

ITV?

David - no, BBC – to David Dimbleby and Jeremy Paxman, who’s incredibly rude, I’m surprised somebody hasn’t punched him on the nose.

And, may one ask how you voted?

One may not ask, because it’s my prerogative to keep that entirely to myself, but I did vote.

What, when and how did you vote, I mean…

I voted last night on my way home. We stopped off at the election, the polling station and voted.

May one ask how you feel about the result?

I think it was a foregone conclusion, I think that at the moment, I think the result reflects the attitude that everybody has, I think a lot of people were really very hopeful eight years ago when there was a Labour Government that, you know a lot of people felt was right for them. I think it’s, I think it obviously shows that it’s very, very bad when a Government has such a landslide support, because ridiculous things happen and there isn’t a balanced view at all. Hopefully in the next four years there will be much more of a, he’ll have a bit more of a fight on his hands. You know, and I think a lot of legislation went through that Betty Jackson Page 411 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41) was merely you know, a stamping of the feet as far as socialist principles were concerned, without really looking at the possible consequences. And I do think they ignore the countryside and I am alarmed more and more by that. But that’s partly because I do live part of the time in France where the respect is enormous and you know, they give back to the land what they take out and they’re very careful – I mean they have horrible billboards all over the place, but they do, the farmers really do look after what they have to look after. And I’m afraid, you know there’s lots of things that go on in this country that don’t really look at it properly at all, I think they’re very urban socialists rather than – and it’s a snob thing which is stupid, I thought we’d got over that a long time ago, but obviously haven’t.

What do you mean by, they ignore the countryside?

I think it’s very difficult for farmers, I think it’s been very difficult for farmers for a long time, I think it’s… it’s an automatic, snobbish value that – it’s like saying all doctors and lawyers are rich, all farmers are supposedly rich, but they’re really not, now and you know, they’re being hammered by bureaucracy and – you know, the most ridiculous by-laws and stupidity that seem to strangle everybody I think, so I’m sort of, against all of that. I mean if you’re a small farmer and you’ve got a herd of cattle or sheep, you know, and you want to slaughter one to put it in your freezer, you can’t do it, and it’s ridiculous, why can’t you do it? It’s just absolutely stupid. [phone rings]

[break in recording]

So why can’t you just slaughter an animal?

Well I’ve no idea, but that’s what I hear, and I’m ill informed on this really, it’s not a subject that I know well about, but I just sort of generally get the feeling that somebody should you know, look at things a bit more clearly rather than – I think there’s a great social divide that’s built on snobbery that carries things forward that really shouldn’t do. And I think that’s quite distressing because you know, said many times during these interviews that I don’t believe in hierarchy, so I think it’s odd when it’s reverse hierarchy too.

Betty Jackson Page 412 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

And who do you hear about the countryside from?

Various friends of mine who’ve moved out of London.

And you said certain things have gone through Parliament which shouldn’t have gone through, or which weren’t socialistic or whatever – can you think of any examples?

Yeah, probably it’s not so much to do with what I do, so we should probably just leave it at that I think. I mean just the generalisation I think, that they shouldn’t be so urban minded, and I think that they should all see a bit more the other side of the coin, and I think that maybe with a very reduced majority he will, because he will have to because there’ll be lots more opposition, so I think that that would be a good thing. I think there should be, there’s a balance that needs to be reached.

Is there anything in the political process or in legislation that does affect what you do?

Only as far as small business is concerned. You know, the thing about – I mean employment issues, pregnancy, maternity leave and that sort of stuff affects us, but – minimum wage, we do actually pay more than the minimum wage I’m happy to say, so that doesn’t. So it’s only sort of general employment laws that affect us. I mean there is a huge thing about imports from China that’s sort of hit the headlines over the last couple of weeks, which I think the European Commission is going to do something about, but generally we go blindly on, actually.

Do the imports from China affect your business?

I think, they affect, I mean it’s supermarket stuff really, I think that that’s what they’re talking about, but since the quota was taken off in January the exports have increased by something like four thousand per cent or something, if you can have four thousand per cent, I’m not sure you can, but anyway. And of course it’s going to affect production in Europe and it’s going to be very difficult. And also the moral issue of how on earth can a piece of clothing cost so little, because it really, really can’t. It means that somewhere along the line somebody is not being paid properly for what they’re doing. Betty Jackson Page 413 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

But the market for that surely is a different market from the market for your things?

It is, but you know, ultimately of course it does affect, I mean, ultimately it does affect. We try and keep ourselves separate and certainly with the main collection, you know, we try and make them special enough so that you can see the difference, but it’s not always the case of course. We were phoned up the other day by a company who wanted to know whether we wanted to use their services, and they were a trend predictor service people, and they explained that they took images off the internet, direct from the catwalk – he was very proud of that bit – could do an immediate working drawing and specification from it and e-mail or fax direct to our manufacturers with fabric details, colour breakdown and a size specification, which I was horrified. I mean I was absolutely horrified, but obviously it’s what people do. It’s quite shocking.

So how might that affect you?

Well, I suppose if anybody does it with our internet images, you know, people – I think that there’s, well I believe there’s a law that you have to change part of it to such a degree that it’s not – but I mean you can see whenever you go, you know, things are inspired by or I mean, whatever. One sort of thinks it’s a good thing, or it can be, or it’s a flattering thing, but I think when it gets to fuelling a whole industry, which it obviously is, I think that then there’s a sort of an alarm bell starts to ring. I’ve always thought it was rather sad that you had to copy, because I’ve always thought it was rather sad that you couldn’t just have another idea, you know. So, but there are now huge actions to you know, stop the manufacturing of rip-off merchandise I think.

And how, what was he trying to sell you, how might he…

His services, he wanted to know if we would like to use his service, he had access to every designer website in the world he said and it was extraordinary. We declined. For the record, we declined. Said thank you very much, we didn’t think we needed him.

Betty Jackson Page 414 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

Let’s go back to the chronology though, where we had left things more or less the last time. There are a whole, you know, I mean every year…

[laughing] I know, it’s a long list.

…achievement awards,

[both laughing]

…developments. One which you yourself drew to my attention was going to Downing Street with Katharine Hamnett.

Yeah, that wasn’t to get an award, it was actually, they used to have, I mean I think they still do, Mrs Thatcher because she said, she was the one who said, oh design with a capital ‘D’, this is what we want, I think in her first or her second term – used to organise during fashion week these receptions that were for people internationally who came across and it was – I don’t know whether I’ve already told this story about going. So we all used to sort of troop along there and it was an evening thing and all of the international press and buyers were involved and all of the designers who were showing and various sort of celebrities or hangers-on and stuff, and we were queuing up the steps of – you used to sort of go, you go in Downing Street and then you go sort of up the staircase which is great, it’s a rather beautiful staircase and then there’s sort of every Prime Minister that’s ever been, there’s a picture of them all sort of on the wall going up. So we were queuing up and I was behind Bernadine – Bernadette Morris who was a that time – I’m sure she’s dead now – but at that time she was the New York Times, really well respected journalist. She was already – I never knew her without grey hair, so she was already a generation on from me. But she was incredibly supportive and had a lot to do with you know, British design being successful because she used to write tremendous reviews and she was very excited about the youth and what was happening. And I don’t know, I think I was with Wendy. Anyway, we were all sort of queuing up the stairs and Bernadette was just in front of us and we got to the top of the stairs and then there was a sort of reception line, you know there was Mrs Thatcher and I don’t know whether the Home Secretary wasn’t there or, Geoffrey Howe I think was there, and then there was the Trade Minister and various sort Betty Jackson Page 415 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41) of minions and Denis was there too. And then there was guy who was sort of announcing. She got to giving her name to the butler or whoever he was and turned round to me and said, ‘Oh my goodness, do I curtsy?’. And I said, ‘For goodness’ sake, no, she’s not royal at all’. But that was of course the effect that Mrs Thatcher had on the Americans, everybody confused her with being royal. I said, ‘Just shake her hand, that’ll be fine’. It was very funny though, that somebody so illustrious sort of forgot what to do [laughing], or what not to do.

And how was she, I mean how did she…?

She was a very bombastic lady, but I must say I didn’t really have time for her. I thought she was a bully, I thought she was, she visited and she, she visited us in a trade fair once at Olympia with a whole entourage and she used to sort of almost, she used to walk at a trot, you know, and everybody used to have to sort of run to keep up with her. And she came to visit us when we were selling the collection and again, we had, it was in an exhibition booth, you know, we were selling the collection, there were about, we had about five tables that were all taking orders, I mean it was very, very busy and she sort of – we knew that she was coming round, but we were sort of singled out because of course we were doing so much export at that time and we were selling a lot. And she just came charging in and not really with any understanding of what we were doing or anything, and just sort of - and again you know, the Americans were completely bowled over because you know, she sort of wanted to see and sat down and asked what they were buying, you know. And in that sort of, and it was odd because then she sort of boomed off out and we were all sort of left there thinking, well, what was the point really. And it was much more, I think it was always much more to do with how she was perceived rather than anything else, although I have to say, you know, the buyers there were absolutely thrilled to meet her, so maybe it had a good effect.

Did you have other dealings with her besides?

Yes, I met her a couple of times.

Similar? Betty Jackson Page 416 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

In similar circumstances, yeah.

And also during those years, well I’m just looking at, as I said, the list of – Dress of the Year 1984…

That was nice, that was given by Brenda Polan, who was woman’s page editor of the Guardian, at the time and she was – there were two journalists who were very influential with me in the early years. One was Brenda Polan and the other one was Sally Brampton. And Sally Brampton was fashion editor of The Observer magazine, newspaper, and Brenda was women’s page editor, not fashion, she was women’s page editor of The Guardian, and both of them really quite sternly championed our cause. I mean when we were within the group that we showed with, the individual clothes show, Brenda Polan actually wrote and said it’s time Betty Jackson leapt out on her own, because she looks ridiculous in here now because she’s outgrown it. And she was always incredibly – because, and because also they see it on a much wider scale, the situation at that time – she was very, very good in giving advice and saying exactly what she thought, good or bad, which is always useful. I mean I always think it’s hopeless if everybody tells you how marvellous you are the whole time, and both of these people did, but when we got it wrong, you know, they were able to say that too, which was hugely important really, when you’re – you know, everything was new to us, I can’t pretend that we knew what we were doing because we didn’t, really, I mean the truth is that we didn’t. And we didn’t really have somebody to ring up and ask, you know, nobody did this thing. So it was divided into people like us who were doing quite well, but on a very small scale, and then multiple companies like Cache d’Or, Mansfield, Courtaulds, Marks and Spencer’s, you know, Dorothy Perkins. I mean it wasn’t, there wasn’t really the high street that there is now.

What did she mean, you look ridiculous in here?

Because it was a group that was made up of quite small designers and we had had a great deal of success and she thought we had outgrown the group and we ought to be independent of them rather than showing together. So she was very – and Sally also was very keen on us starting to show on our own and just promote ourselves a little bit. Betty Jackson Page 417 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

And what was the dress that she selected?

Yeah, it was lovely. It was, well it’s still in the Museum of Bath, it’s a knitted dress and it’s a stripe knitted dress - red and brown stripes, all cut different ways – and it’s just a great dress, and it was a very successful dress. She was very clever in the way she sort of captured the spirit of what we were about, because not many people were doing knitted fabric in the way – it wasn’t knitwear, we weren’t doing proper knitwear, but it was knitted fabric that we were cutting up and making it look like knitwear, which I suppose was quite new. And it was quite a bold sort of club stripe. Lovely dress; all cut up, going different directions, it’s a lovely dress. With a brown hat that pulled on.

And why was it the dress of the year?

Well it was an event. There was always a dress of the year and they invited different journalists to choose their designers and choose – I don’t whether the journalists chose, I think Brenda did it for a couple of years because she was so well thought of – but each journalist chose their designer and then chose from the collection a piece to be on permanent display there.

But I mean did she give reasons why she chose this particular one?

I think she did, but we might have to ring up the Museum and remind ourselves of what that is. But it was because, I mean a lot of people were wearing it, we were very sought after, it was a new way of cutting things, it was a very easy, relaxed way of dressing but it was also young and sexy too, and you know I think that, I think I always sort of wanted to be comfortable, but then a bit later on people thought of comfortable as being big and layered and you know, bit of a sort of old feminist rather than – but the comfortable that we started doing was definitely sexy comfortable, rather than old and layered comfortable.

And then you were British Designer of the Year next year, this is 1985.

Betty Jackson Page 418 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41)

Yes. Yes. That was, that was the start of, I mean it had been, I think Katharine had got it before me, Katharine Hamnett had got it before me and – but I think it was only the second year it had been going when I got it, so it was sort of, it was an award that was in its infancy and has then since grown to what is now the designer of the year with many different categories. But, can’t even remember where we went to get it. I know one of those newscasters awarded it to me, which was bizarre, also.

I’ve got here, International Linen Council.

That was a different award.

Ah. Right.

Yeah, I got several Linen awards because there was, the International Linen Council was really for promoting linen and I think they did it to encourage young designers to use the fabric. And I’ve had a lifetime’s love affair with linen really, so it was never, it was never a chore. But they very kindly – I think there was the manufacturers who voted for it, so I think the Irish manufacturers voted for us as well as journalists who had a sort of more aesthetic take on it.

This is all sort of quite early years after you started the company, so…

This is about the first four or five years, yeah.

So what did that mean to you?

Well you know, it’s odd because once you’re in on it, you just sort of go with it really rather than – you can never sort of stand back, and plus, because I’ve said before, we were far too busy to stand back and think. I don’t think you ever think, oh isn’t this marvellous, because there’s always something that’s actually going wrong on that particular day that makes you think [laughs] oh God, it’s really shit. So you know, we always sort of had a balanced view because of that I think and because we did make huge mistakes, which I can’t remember what they were now and obviously don’t want to go into that, but I’m sure Betty Jackson Page 419 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side A (part 41) we did. And you know, it was hard, it was complicated, it was bitty, so it got to a, it sort of, it was part of one’s life really, you know. You went to these award ceremonies and lo and behold, you won one, you know, which was all very nice of course. And, but as I say, it was really, it was very much part of what was happening, really.

And what was David’s reaction?

Oh he was thrilled too. He always thought that he would get an invitation saying not, saying his real name instead of it being ‘plus one’ [laughs]. He always says, he’s always the ‘plus one’. Which, I suppose that’s tricky because you know, everybody understood that it was my – and he used to be called Mr Jackson as well, which he tolerated rather than [laughs] enjoyed. I think he’s been really rather proud. I mean now, he could list our achievements much more than I can.

[End of Tape 21 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 420 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42)

Tape 21 Side B [part 42]

One of the other things I have here for the mid 1980s was BJ for Men.

Yes, this started because the comedian Lenny Henry rang me up one day and asked me to, if I’d consider making clothes for him and I – I mean he was just sort of starting off and… but he was, I mean he still is, but he was brilliant. And we’d sort of dabbled in you know, little bit making stuff for David and you know, but making things out of, using the same fabrics and the same approach as women, so we sort of started to do things for him and then gradually, you know other people started to ask, so we decided that we’d show as part of the main collection some boys as well. So we literally, I mean it was a very, very small – it was never… it was very, very small in those days, it was just sort of couple of jackets, couple of trousers, two or three shirts and you know, a t-shirt or whatever it was, and a bit of knitwear. And it was, you know, it was received very well and a few places started to stock it, but then with everything else, you know, there comes a point where you absolutely have to make a choice and so we were, we hadn’t found a good manufacturing base so these things were being made in our womenswear factories which really wasn’t good because you don’t construct a pair of men’s trousers in the same way, and neither do you a jacket, so even though the whole point was to make it as deconstructed as possible and as ragged looking, almost as possible, and it got to a point where I just really didn’t have the time to do it. I remember one season, you know we had a week to go to the show and we hadn’t started the menswear and it was absolutely too much and you know, to sort of stay up all night just to do that seemed ridiculous, so we decided to sort of stop it. ‘Cos it started off really as a sort of request thing. We sort of dabbled with childrenswear too, but we only sort of you know, did childrenswear for friends really. I mean, I must say that the whole feel about the company was never you know, high powered executive, it was always a relaxed, casual atmosphere. You know, friends used to drop in, you know, it was run in a very easy, friendly way so we were never – and because we’d never had to worry about the bottom line, because you know, we had to turn people away rather than go searching for customers, I don’t think we ever conceived of an idea where it would become more pressurised and we would have to look at our expansion or decline. And so it became just sort of, ooh, yes let’s do that. Okay well we will, it can make it different, it will make it… and so it was quite a nice thing to do at one point. And I mean, we went on Betty Jackson Page 421 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) long time after that doing you know, special orders for certain people and so you know, we still do in fact, believe it or not.

For men?

For men, yes. We have a few clients who still want something from us.

Can you say who any of them are?

One of the things that we never do is discuss that. I’m a PR nightmare in that respect, but I don’t think it’s anybody else’s business. I always hated the idea that you take advantage of any situation like that. I know it’s completely stupid and wrong and I tell you, my PR gives me grief about it all the time, but I really won’t. You know, we’ve had the most extraordinary situations with very, very well known people in one room and another very, very well known person in another and trying to get them out of the building so that they don’t meet and don’t cross. But you know, they’re not stories that I’m going to go public on.

Is there a reason for that confidentiality?

It’s got to the point where I won’t do it and because now, you know, celebrity, this celebrity thing has gone berserk, I’m even more against it. If somebody is photographed and they are asked who they are wearing and they say it’s one of ours, that’s fine, but what I won’t do is say who my customers are, because they come to me for one thing and I don’t really see that it’s anything to do with anybody else.

How different is it - I mean apart from the obvious angle, or perhaps because of the obvious anatomical differences, I don’t know – designing for a man versus designing for a woman?

Well we applied the same principles really, because we used the same cloth and we used the same colours and we used, you know, and at that time what I was doing was sort of, you know, almost men’s clothes for women. So you know, there was always this sort of Betty Jackson Page 422 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) hint of androgyny in what we were doing anyway, so it was an easy crossover. We just made the jackets to fit boys instead of girls. I mean it was a great thing to do at one time, but then it really did become too much and something had to go and because that was almost a sort of a luxury for me, that really did have to go.

But are there restrictions, lines to be drawn, between men’s and women’s fashions? I mean if you’re designing for a man…

No, I don’t believe so. I don’t believe so at all, I mean men are much more appreciative, or at least they were then, they get very excited. We were doing quite a lot of embroidery on things at that time and appliqué things at that time and we sold jackets to men with embroidery on them and appliqué and the whole thing. I mean the shapes were really quite simple, but you know, the way we treated it I suppose made them quite special.

But I mean you wouldn’t do a dress for a man, would you?

No, I haven’t ever done that. I haven’t ever done that. Though we did do a kilt when we did, there was a whole kilt collection which was you know, not proper kilts, not proper Scottish kilts but you know, our version of a pleated wrap skirt and we once did one of those for a well-known person, but apart from that, no.

Another venture that you got into was agreements with pattern companies; Vogue, Butterick and so on.

Mm, mm. Well they used to – I mean this was a huge thing at the time, of course it’s not so much now, it was a big thing at the time. They used to come to the show and then select certain styles and produce a pattern so that you could actually – I mean we were in the catalogue and it was interesting because we visited them in New York, which is where their base is, and I mean a fantastic operation there, you know the precision of a pattern producing company was extraordinary to see and that was exciting. I think it lasted for about four or five years. And it actually was quite lucrative – we gave them the pattern and we got a royalty from them for how many they sold and a couple of them did do really quite well, a couple of seasons. Then it stopped really because their market you know, Betty Jackson Page 423 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) stopped and they obviously scaled down and it was no longer sort of relevant. But when we did it, it was actually quite a nice thing to do, really, and it was a trip to America and somebody’s rent was paid, you know. It was good.

And what’s the relationship between a pattern that they would produce for the general public and a pattern that you would…

Identical. We sold the pattern to them, so, and then we chose different fabric or we suggested different fabrics and they then were responsible. We gave them the original pattern and it never affected our sales of clothing, because if you’re the sort of person who wants to make clothes yourself, you’re quite a different market, so for us it was an expansion of the market, it was you know, somewhere else where we could maybe reach people that we couldn’t reach in another way because the people who buy that sort of thing probably wouldn’t have dreamed of buying the original. And of course we had to suggest several fabrics you know, so it had a different take by the time it got into their catalogue.

And were there certain patterns that were more or less adaptable or usable for that purpose?

They would always make that decision. We used to sell more if it got into their category of ‘Easy to Make’, so they used to choose quite simple things that – and they obviously couldn’t choose anything with embellishment on it because that was always quite difficult to either interpret or reproduce, so it was usually the simplest shapes that they went after. But you know, at one point there were sort of four or five I think that were actually selling really quite well.

And then you got an MBE, I think round about that time. Tell me about that.

Well that was quite something really. I got a letter through the post which was marked ’10 Downing Street’ and I actually thought it was something to do with the tax returns I maybe hadn’t sent in and [laughs] anyway, so I opened it – I was actually going to the Royal College, it was my day of teaching and I remember opening it on the way to the Royal College, in Kensington outside that big Royal Garden Hotel and nearly crashing into a bus Betty Jackson Page 424 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) when I actually realised what it said, you know, the Queen is in mind to grant you this thing and if you wish to accept and you know, you have to keep it confidential, or whatever it is they write. And it was, and so I went to the Royal College and I sort of was with everybody and I couldn’t tell anybody about this thing, I had to keep schtum for a whole day and I sort of didn’t know what to think really, I didn’t know why I’d got it, I didn’t know anything really except I thought gosh, this is quite something. And also I think Jean Muir was the only one to have one, but certainly none of my peer group had at all. I think she was the only designer to – I think she had an OBE and then she was upgraded to a CBE just before she died. But, so you know, it was sort of establishment recognising youth really, which was odd because you know, I was still, we’d only been going sort of four or five years, so I was part of this new wave of… and also because, you know, I didn’t, we were the wild ones really. There were people like Jasper Conran and Caroline Charles and Roland Klein that were all doing much more classic stuff and then there were, like I said, there was Wendy and Bodymap and Katharine and myself that were all a bit more cutting edge I think. So I think that that was quite a shock because obviously one would have thought that somebody with more of a classic bent would get one before me. Anyway, so I replied and said yes I’d be delighted and so went to the Palace in June, yes, extraordinary, amazing. And I remember going, well we went and Pascale was very little and she saw us off at the front door and I could take two people, so my sister came across from Paris and David came and we’d decided that Pascale was far too young really, because she was only about three I suppose, or two or three, and so we went off in a car and she said, ‘Where are you going today Mummy?’ and I said, ‘I’m going to see the Queen’. She said, ‘Ooh, have a nice time’. And so it was the most, it was a fabulous occasion, it was really, it was, because I was quite nervous and of course they separate you off and your guests go in another door, but the best thing about Buckingham Palace – and I’ve been now several times – is that everybody is just so nice there. You get shown, you know, where to put your coat, you get shown where the ladies’ loo is, but everybody does it with a smile on their face. They’re all completely charming and you know, to drive through the gates and there’s a policeman, you know, saluting you because you’ve got a sticker on your car and everybody’s sort of thrilled, it’s rather a joyful occasion really. And I got into the loo when I got there and I thought, God, I was absolutely shaking like a leaf and there was this awful woman who was, I don’t know where she was from, somewhere from the West Country or something, and she was in such a terrible state and Betty Jackson Page 425 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) couldn’t get her hat to stay on and she was completely flushed and hot and you know, her suit was slightly too tight and she was so uncomfortable and nervous. And it’s sort of like that thing when you get on a plane and somebody’s more nervous than you and you sort of then think, well I’m not nervous at all, of course not. Don’t be nervous, it’ll be fine, because you’re telling somebody else not to be you forget to be yourself. And I just sort of thought, if you’re ner… and I did tell her, you know what, this is one day and if you’re nervous you’ll forget it all. So don’t be nervous because it’ll be a great thing to remember all the detail that happens, because you’ve got to get home and tell everybody about it. And so we sort of went out and she was in another sort of category, but, then you all get penned up, but the spectacle of the whole thing was fantastic to be part of really. And you know, I mean the Lord Lieutenant comes and he’s got the most fabulous jacket in the world with moiré ribbons on and buttons on and you know, fabulous little tucks and details and he’s got these sort of breeches and his leggings on and blah-dy blah, and so everything is sort of hugely pomp and circumstance. And you do it in the ballroom; you sort of queue up through you know, these marvellous you know, Rubens paintings on the wall, but you’re just sort of there in the ballroom, and there’s a sort of band playing. As I walked – and then you get sort of told what you do, what you have to do and everything. You do have to curtsey for the Queen, obviously. And I remember the band playing The Hills are Alive with the Sound of Music [laughs] as I walked up to get it. So yes, I shook her hand and she said – the most remarkable thing is, she knew exactly who I was and there were hundreds of us there, and that was, I was thrilled really and sort of too nervous to mutter any sort of reply. She asked me what collection I was working on, so I just said, ‘Winter’, not knowing whether it was winter or summer or you know, what the hell it was really. And she said, ‘Oh you are so clever working so far in advance’. And I went, ‘Mm’, and she also had difficulty pinning the medal on because she said, ‘Oh these pins, they’re going to have to be redesigned. They’re sometimes terribly difficult to get through’. And when somebody, you know, when the Queen of England is doing that on your left breast, you feel rather special, I must say. So, and she was very beautiful, she has the most beautiful skin. She did in 1985. Well she still has ‘cos I saw her quite recently, she still does.

And what happened then?

Betty Jackson Page 426 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42)

And then she shakes your hand, gives you a good shove and so you know the whole thing is over and then you sort of walk off to the right and then somebody’s ready there to – ‘cos some people came off and actually passed out with the nerves of the thing. And there’s somebody there to sort of say, oh well done, and here’s your box and do you want to leave your medal on or take it off, and you know, and here’s all the stuff and so, and you are just cared for. It’s a seamless procedure. I mean they’ve obviously done it for years and they’re just brilliant at it.

Is there food, do you get a cup of tea?

Oh I can’t remember. No I don’t think so. Yes, I think you do, I think there’s tea and ghastly warm white wine or something out on the terrace and then gently you’re encouraged to move off. We had a big party at a restaurant called The Escargot in Dean Street. And we had a big do, where we had Jeanette Charles who’s the lookalike Queen, who came to visit us at the party and spent a long time talking to Bruce Oldfield, it was very funny. [laughs] So yes, we had a good, yes we all celebrated very hard into the early hours of the morning, it was great.

And when else have you had contact with the Queen, you said you’d seen her several times?

Oh at various receptions and things.

What sort of receptions?

She has receptions for people from the arts and I seem to be on this list which is always very nice, so I go whenever I’m summoned.

And, does she talk to you on each occasion?

Er, yes she has talked to me several times. Only very briefly though. I can’t say we’re intimate.

Betty Jackson Page 427 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42)

What about the garden parties, are you invited to those?

I have been invited to a couple, I’ve never been able to go to those and I’ve always thought, I’ve never really desired to go to a garden party. Too many people really. Don’t see what the point is. If she’s celebrating the arts, that’s a different thing, or she’s celebrating design, that’s a different thing, but I wouldn’t think that I would go as a social occasion, because it has nothing to do with my social life.

And in 1990 I understand, you became a design consultant for Marks and Spencer?

Yeah. Yes, that also, I mean the then Design Director, Brian Godbold phoned me and asked me if I would like to, would I consider being a consultant on ladieswear. Paul Smith at that time was the consultant on menswear and they were looking for somebody to do ladieswear. And I really you know, didn’t really think very much of this, but he said well come and have lunch and we’ll discuss it, it would be great. So I went along to have lunch with him and the then Vice Chairman, Clinton Silver and you know, I suppose I was being vetted by Clinton as well. I mean I think Brian had the idea – and I knew Brian because we had, in my dealings with the Royal College of Art we had done a couple of very, very successful projects for Marks and Spencer’s that they’d supported and you know, at that point, at that time, sort of in the back of my mind and in my heart I always thought that Marks and Spencer’s could be doing much more than it ever was and I thought it was a bit sluggish and complacent and rather arrogant about its place in everybody’s high street and thought that it had a duty to present a little bit better design. Although, you know, the quality and the cost at that time was not ever in dispute. So I’d sort of got to know him during that thing because we did do a couple of very, very successful projects that became part of the first year’s curriculum at the Royal College, so I suppose that’s why he phoned me up. But then interestingly enough, we went to have lunch and it was very pleasant and Clinton is a lovely man, Clinton Silver is a lovely man – he’s retired now - but he’s a very funny man. And then a week later Brian phoned me up and said oh, there’s been a bit of a hitch, because one of the director’s wives has suggested Bruce Oldfield because she buys clothes from him, so over my head Bruce has been appointed, or they’re gonna try him out. So I said, well, really you know, no problem, because I hadn’t really got excited about the appointment at all. [laughs] So he said, no, no, no, but you know, we’re gonna do this Betty Jackson Page 428 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) thing, we’re gonna you know – anyway I let it go. And about a month later he phoned and said, it’s a complete disaster, please come and talk again. So then I rang Paul Smith up and said, you know, what is it, you know, what do you think? And he said, it’s a great thing to do because you see clothes on another level and you also have the ability to change things. He said there’s a lot of people working in Marks and Spencer’s who really don’t know, who’ve been promoted from cucumbers and really don’t know about how to do a proper jean and how to cut a t-shirt and stuff like that. So he said you can actually make a change and he said, but never forget that if you say purple is fabulous, you know, you’ll clothe the British nation in purple, you know, within the next six weeks. So he was very encouraging, so I went along and then I was appointed, it was good.

Why was the connection with Bruce Oldfield a disaster?

I don’t think, I think it was, I mean I love Bruce but I think he works on a different level, he’s very much one-to-one with his private clientele. He, I think he found it really quite difficult to deal with merchandise that – it just wasn’t his market really, he wasn’t very interested. I think it was he withdrew rather than… but I think there was no challenge there or meeting of the minds on any level. I mean it was quite scary at the beginning because I remember my first, at the beginning I had to go in and see their ranges and at that time they were divided up into you know, the buyer for blouses, the buyer for knitwear, the buyer for skirts, the buyer for trousers, the buyer for… and so, categories like that. And I had the board’s backing of course, so everybody had to come and see me, you know we set it up so that I talked to every senior selector, which is what they were called, and some of them completely resented, because I was just this little new girl with a turnover of what they did in a week, you know, and they didn’t, some of them really, really, resented having to talk to me. Really had, you know, a grip on power there that was extraordinary and really thought that they knew, and weren’t interested in any aspect of design entering their world, which was extraordinary really. I remember the then blouse buyer walking in with her rail of clothes and wrestling this shirt off the rail, and it was a hideous polyester crepe de chine in ivory colour shirt, with a lace jabot at the neck, like a frill thing at the neck and she actually, she thrust this at me and said, ‘At the moment I take three million pounds on this shirt per week. If you can suggest anything better, I’ll stay and talk to you, if not, I’m out of here’. So you know, that was the sort of thing that I was up against. But eventually, Betty Jackson Page 429 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42)

I mean I quite like a challenge like that [laughs], so eventually we got on quite well really. I mean I was there to try and make changes where I could and suggest things that could improve the quality of design, or even introduce the, even remotely the theory that there was a designer involved with deciding on the width of the collar, you know, and the detail of the button and it would make a better garment if you paid more attention to this. But eventually, I mean I was there for about six years I think. So eventually, eventually it was – and also I made it good fun, I made them all come down to my shop and I made, I took them out of Baker Street and showed them you know, our show and showed them our fabrics and showed them the spectrum of colours that we were working with, and I think that they found that fairly inspirational, you know at one point. So I was there really to inspire rather than design the whole range, which…

What were the projects that you had worked on previously with the students for Marks and Spencer?

That was an idea that we had so that the first years would look at Marks and Spencer’s and say, okay, if you were the designer there, what sort of merchandise would you introduce, given that it is a high street store. And we wanted parameters for the students as well as trying to broaden Marks and Spencer’s attitude.

So I mean, whose idea was that?

I think Brian Godbold knew Joanne Brogden very well, she was Head of Fashion at the time. I think that they had been students together or he was a student of hers, so they were pretty good mates. And I think that they were keen on getting a liaison between the two, between the company. I mean Joanne was always great at sort of seeing a bit of a deal, so you know, it meant that Marks and Spencer’s came into the College with a sponsorship deal and that sort of thing, so I think it worked quite well all round. And we did a sort of little mini presentation for them and then it became part of the Royal College show at the end of every season; the first years’ work was always the collection that we did for Marks and Spencer’s. And it’s always, that’s what’s you know, one of the best things about working for students is of course they’ll come at something laterally and they won’t be phased by what they see before them, they’ll come sideways at something. So I think, you Betty Jackson Page 430 C1046/10 Tape 21 Side B (part 42) know, it made all of us think, really. You know, their perception of Marks and Spencer’s and what they thought they ought to be doing and it was good for them.

[End of Tape 21 Side B]

Betty Jackson Page 431 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43)

Tape 22 Side A [part 43]

We skipped over, chronologically, you being named as a Royal Designer for Industry, I think 1988.

Mm, mm. This is an extraordinary group of people and it’s not very well known, either, but the best thing about the Royal Designer for Industry is it is actually something that is awarded by your, by your peer group I suppose and you are nominated without you knowing and I must say I hadn’t heard of anything about the Royal Designer for Industry, but it’s designers who are voted by other designers to be a part of this thing and it’s designers who have achieved excellence in design and commerce and manufacturing. So that’s the distinction about this thing. So it’s not, it’s to do with business as well and it’s a faculty within the Royal Society of Arts that’s completely fascinating because the only common denominator is that we’re all designers, and so Norman Foster is one, Zandra Rhodes is one, Thomas Heatherwick is one… who else? Millions of people, I can’t remember anybody at the moment. Alan Irvine the architect, Kenneth Grange, Pentagram – you know, there’s a huge body of people. It encompasses product designers, furniture designers, theatre designers, Tim O’Brien is one. And fashion and textile designers. And really the only common denominator is that you’re a designer and you’re working in industry and it really is fascinating when everybody gets together and then your discipline invites somebody else to be one. There’s limited numbers, there’s only a hundred and fifty of us at any one time and it’s quite a fascinating body of people. Completely passive, we don’t do anything except meet twice a year. But it is extraordinary, you know, the first dinner I went to, I was sat next to the guy who’d designed the Harrier Jump Jet, you know. I mean how fabulous is that. And then, the Missonis have got one, you know, and so it’s a sort of the best kept secret I think really, it’s completely fascinating and rather lovely to be part of.

And how did you hear that you’d been awarded that?

Well, I mean again a knitwear designer, Kay Cosserat, who was a great friend of mine, actually contacted me and said, will you have this award? It would be great if you did. And I went along and got it and it’s in the RSA and Hardy Amies gave it to me, which was Betty Jackson Page 432 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43) quite extraordinary. They got him out of cotton wool I think, to stand him up and give it, but anyway. And you know, you get – it’s sort of nothing except it’s been going since 1827 or something and it’s rather fabulous to be part of the Royal Society of Arts in that context really. All to do with, you know, people exchanging ideas, talking about design and things happening from the meeting of minds, really.

Did you hear anything more about the process by which your peers chose you?

Well, now you have to send in a biography and examples of your work and then you are judged by the collective body that is the RDI, so a lot of very illustrious people have been voted against, I can tell you, it’s extraordinary. But Lucienne Day and Robin Day are in there – I mean a huge amount of fantastic people. And we’ve all got our names on the wall of the RSA. I remember I did take my children to say, I told them it was written in blood, because it’s painted on the wall in red and they believed me because they were six and seven at the time or something.

But I mean the process by which your peers selected, chose you, did you have to do this submitting your work and the biography?

No, I think they put forward my name – oh, Jean Muir was one as well – and I was voted by the assembled throng, in or out, simple as that.

Why d’you think they chose you?

Because I’ve achieved excellence in [laughing] design and manufacture. It was a time when, you know, we were you know, I think we had an awful lot of publicity going on at the time and we were fairly high up this very visible designer scene that was happening in London, so I suppose that was why.

Is it a lifetime thing?

Yeah. You have it till you die. [laughs]

Betty Jackson Page 433 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43)

So while you have it, then that’s yours ever?

Yes. It’s good.

Where d’you meet?

At the Royal Society of Arts. We’ve nominated – Vivienne has now got one and John Galliano has got one and Paul Smith has got one and – so there’s quite a few of us.

How well d’you know Paul Smith?

I know him, but I don’t know him very well, but we’ve sort of travelled along the same path, I suppose for a number of years now, so…

What’s he like?

He’s very clever, he’s very tall, he’s very focussed. But I don’t know him intimately at all.

Who d’you know best amongst your fellow designers?

Erm… who do I know best? I don’t know, we’d have to run through a list. I know a lot of people quite well, but whether one chooses to spend time with them is another thing. Whether one chooses to be friends, friends is a different thing entirely. I mean they are colleagues or they are acquaintances, but whether one chooses to spend time is another thing really.

Perhaps we can come back to that at some point. We had been talking about…

About Marks and Spencer’s.

Marks and Spencer, and about – you were talking about the projects that you had done with students.

Betty Jackson Page 434 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43)

Yeah.

And did Marks and Spencer then take on those designs?

Yes they did. I mean that was the whole point, that they were to be produced commercially and to be put in at least two or three of the London stores and there was a sort of display and a thing and a press launch and all of that stuff. And it was great. I mean it was a small, you know, in their scheme of things of course it was a very small project for them, but what was interesting was it made, I mean first of all it was great for the students which is the most important thing because it made them look at something and then, you know, they had the advantage of seeing their clothes made, manufactured and made and actually being sold to the general public and yet they were still in a student situation. Well that’s quite rare and Marks and Spencer’s, I think that they had a huge amount of press reaction from it, you know, and it made them the nice guys really.

And how different is it thinking about designs and also advising the designers there for their market – I mean it’s quite a different market from the market that I assume that you normally design for. What do you have to keep in mind, or how do you, you know, are there some other principles that you go by?

I don’t think there’s other principles. I think I was there to sort of, to ‘up’ the quality of design or to make people aware of design. Because, as I said at the beginning, some people had had, they came literally, I mean you could be promoted within the company simply on performance and it was usually on either managerial performance or economic performance. And so you had these people in these positions of huge financial power who had no design background, who had no idea of even how a garment was constructed, but knew about number crunching and knew about you know, the running of a department and all of that sort of thing. So I think I was there to inspire them a little in their aesthetic ideals, or even introduce them to things like a colour palette. You know, because in our collection, you know, we go from sheepskin to chiffon and everything in between, so the range of fabrics that we could get into quite a small collection you know, was extensive for them. And you know, I talked to them about fabrics, I talked to them about performance of fabrics, I talked to them about touch and feel. You know, for me touch and feel of Betty Jackson Page 435 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43) clothes is one of the most important thing, I think I’ve said it, it must be on tape five or something. [laughs] That you know, you have to be seduced by the whole thing really and I think that they were not. I also was very keen on getting the product more to do with them, rather than always they talked about this British woman that was out there, that was nothing really to do with their lives and I think that that, I think we achieved that, I think it changed, I think they did start to include merchandise that actually they would wear or you know, the office girls would wear or… Instead of it always being this fictitious person for them that they were providing… and yet, you know, two hundred and forty stores worldwide, they were clothing the nation, you know, they really were. And for some people Marks and Spencer’s was their only clothes shop, their only local clothes shop, so I always thought that they had a responsibility to do better with that sort of coverage. I still do, but you know, that’s another story. So all I wanted to do was to get them excited and get them passionate about the product rather than it being a clerical approach. And so that’s what I did. I talked about passion and love and romance and all of that stuff, I suppose.

Did you still have a concept of a British woman whom they would clothe, or was that something you tried to leave completely behind?

I did try to leave it out. I mean you know, you are aware that some of their products are directed to absolutely, totally towards a particular market, but odd things like, way back I remember they had – what I also was keen on was authenticity. They would do t-shirts and jeans and it was actually probably when Gap was really, had hit Britain very strongly and it was all this sort of American sportswear that was happening and you sh… I went in saying you should be able to get a great white t-shirt from Marks and Spencer’s, because it was always to do with basics at a, quality at a price, you know. And I went in there saying, you should be doing a great t-shirt and get it right in white and then do a range of colours in it, because everybody, everybody wants a white t-shirt, whatever age or whatever. You know, you either want one to go on holiday or you want a coloured one to go under a suit or… you get one that can go in a washing machine and can come out and look right and not twist and not do all of this thing. And so I was very keen on this and the t-shirt that they had on offer looked really strange and when it was actually put in front of me, the sleeves were cut on the wrong grain and it was sort of bizarre and nobody had sort of Betty Jackson Page 436 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43) noticed this. And in a jersey fabric you can see quite clearly the direction of the knit and the sleeves were cut on, you know, the grain was going down the sleeve instead of round the sleeve. Well that’s, when I got the thing in front of me, you know, it sort of, it was written in neon light for me across the whole thing. I said well, first of all cut your sleeves on the right way. And, oh. You know, nobody had a clue. And it was sort of little things like that and you know and why jeans were better at that time if they had proper jean stitching, you know, nobody wanted just a pair of weak looking denim trousers. Of course the denim market has changed hugely now so you know, denim is designed as well now, but at that time I wanted to make their jeans much more authentic because I didn’t think they had any chance of selling. And I also tried to use the things about Marks and Spencer’s was that they always did this fantastic range of sizes. You could get short leg, long leg, middle leg, cropped. You could get t-shirts up to a size twenty-four. You know, no other high street shop gave this sort of service. Plus, you could buy it in Kingston and take it back in Carlisle. I mean they were not playing to their strengths, I thought. So they had lots of conversations about that. And we got the t-shirt right and yeah, they did very well with that one. And then, you know, their knitwear as well. I attacked knitwear big time because at that time we were doing very, very well with our knitwear. We’d actually started to do knitwear and it was very successful. And I was very keen that they actually did a knitwear programme that they sold together. You had to go and buy the sweater in the sweater bit, you then had to walk down the road to get your trousers to go with it, you know in another area of the store, you had to get – and it was all compartmentalised like that, whereas every other shop, you know, Dorothy Perkins, Gap were selling total looks. You know, they were selling things that went together. And I was very keen on this knitted dressing thing that we had done very, very well with, so that you would take the same yarn and you would knit it finely for the sweater, you would use a different stitch to knit a skirt that didn’t sag or didn’t you know, your knees didn’t poke out or your bum didn’t poke out and pants as well in that sort of palazzo sort of pant. And then you knitted it in a bigger heavier stitch to have the cardigans, but they would all go together because they were all the same yarn, they were all the same colour. And I was very keen on this and we’d done very well with this. But the whole thing about it was that they had to sort of show them all together, because it was absolutely pointless if you, you know, had to walk forty yards to find your cardi that went with the sweater that went with the skirt and the trousers. This was quite a difficult thing to get through because the Chairman at the Betty Jackson Page 437 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43) time absolutely hated and loathed the idea of selling things in packs that went together. And that was a big problem with Marks and Spencer’s, that it was run by people who didn’t shop there. It was run by men who didn’t ever buy the product, you see. But anyway we did get a – there was a great bloke there called Andrew Stone who became the Vice Chairman, who was terribly supportive of those projects I did and he pushed a lot of things through and they had success with it. And gradually the role changed of course, because Brian Godbold left and Sheilagh Brown, who had been at Cooper’s and Quorum – brilliant lady – took over. And of course her agenda was different and I mean already, you know Marks and Spencer’s was reinventing itself. I mean it was hugely successful during that time and largely to do with her vision, you know, so we were then, my role expanded and I was involved at the beginning of the season when they put together, she instigated putting together Marks and Spencer’s colours, you know, which they’d never done, they just bought direct from suppliers and never had any sort of colour palette at all. So you know, she was brilliant and it had I think four or five years of extremely good results.

What sort of colours were they?

Oh they varied from season to season, but they were much more on line with what was happening in the world and trend-wise and you know, much more international and I think the customer response was fantastic.

And what were the objections of this chap you were talking about just now to having…

Richard Greenbury. He, for some reason absolutely thought that trousers should be in one area, skirts should be in another and it was far too complicated to do it any other way. And I mean he was the boss, so everybody did what he wanted.

And your role, well you’ve already indicated, but your role continued to change didn’t it, in your relationship with them?

Yes, I mean I think also because the selectors changed and gradually people got more confidence in what I was saying and also, you know, tiny little things that I’d sort of changed or suggested, they discovered worked. And this sounds terribly pompous I know Betty Jackson Page 438 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43)

– but then, of course, they were happy to ask, you know, if there was a problem, what can we do about this, this isn’t selling or this is wrong, look at it and tell us what’s wrong with it. You know, or we’ve got a choice of this and this, but I can only buy one thing in three colours, you know, which one should we do. So I think it grew to be, it grew to be – it was fascinating, it was a fascinating time.

And how would you advise them in a situation like that for example?

Well I’d say what I’d felt. My gut reaction is this.

But I mean what would that be based on?

My gut reaction, I’m afraid. My passion, my feeling, nothing more than that.

And what about Autograph?

Well Autograph came as a sort of result of this because they found, well at the time I think that you know, they had made huge changes in their food and Ken Lo was on board and they were doing fantastic things with food and their market research said these, you know these women who knew what they wanted and had disposable income were coming into the stores buying the food and the underwear, but not stopping at all where the clothes were concerned. And they thought that there was a, they already had this customer coming in the store and that it was an obvious thing to try and sell them something else as well. So that was the principle it was based on. Plus, they still had a very, very good reputation for quality and price control and I thought it was a good idea to you know, up their level a little bit. And I believed that they, I believed very definitely that there was a customer that wanted to buy clothes from Marks and Spencer’s that had a little bit more to them, were slightly more cutting edge, that they didn’t make, they made four hundred of them rather than four thousand of them, so you know, they weren’t absolutely all over but it was a sort of, there was almost an aspirational element there too and that’s what I felt. So Sheilagh also felt this and Autograph was born, really. And they used four designers initially, and I was one of the four.

Betty Jackson Page 439 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43)

Whose idea was Autograph?

I think it was really Sheilagh’s , which she’d sort of talked about it for a while and because she was in there and looking at the whole of womenswear, it was something that she felt very strongly about.

And, what happened then?

So we met, she asked me to go in for a meeting and we met and she discussed it, along with the, one of the senior selectors who she wanted to put in charge of the whole thing. You know, asked me if I’d be interested in doing a collection for them and we took it from there. Then we signed a contract with them, an exclusive contract, and then they linked each designer up with a different manufacturer. We were linked with Courtaulds, who we went, you know, we then did a range with them using Courtaulds as a manufacturer and the merchandise was bought and put in the shop.

So I mean this is completely a different sort of enterprise from your own collections – the scale and everything…

Yeah.

…can you say something about that?

Well initially they put it in I think fifteen stores, for the launch, very, very quickly because I think everybody was alarmed by the success really, and very, very quickly they increased that to twenty-five. And it was interesting. We didn’t manufacture it, we did the whole collection which then had to have both Marks and Spencer’s and Courtaulds’ approval. We suggested fabrics, they bought all the fabrics, but we did the colours and suggested fabrics for them. They then priced the whole thing and Marks and Spencer’s then guaranteed to buy a certain amount. And we did it at the same time that we were doing our collection, so it became much more to do with what was going on at the time. And we included, for the first season we included leather and jersey, and it was great, and knitwear and it was a fantastic opportunity really, it was a great thing to do at the beginning because Betty Jackson Page 440 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43) it was breaking new ground which is always interesting. And of course, you know, they backed it up with a small area within the stores and you know, it was all launched and everybody was amazed that Marks and Spencer’s could do this sort of thing. And it was really very, very successful. And they included menswear after that. I think the menswear, it’s slightly changed, I ended my contract after three or four years, I can’t actually remember now, but really because I’d then thought I’d been with this company quite long enough and also I wanted to do other things. It was, you know they were fairly rigorous in me not talking to anybody else at all. Several other people had come with you know, interesting propositions which we couldn’t take up because it was an exclusive contract and so we never did and we never told anybody, but you know, it was also I think time that they got other people involved.

Why?

I was bored. And the concept had changed. From being an exciting, challenging, dangerous thing for them, it became predictable and it became very Marks and Spencer’s- ified and I remember going into the Kensington branch one day and seeing, and looking at the Autograph range and by that time it all had my name on it too, and it said Betty Jackson for Autograph and I looked at this collection and I realised it had absolutely nothing to do with its original concept. And lengths had been changed, proportions had been changed, in order to fit their customer and I realised that I was doing something that I didn’t like at all and that it was, they were producing a product which said it had something to do with me, but it had been removed entirely from my influence. Either, you know we used to go and say, green is fantastic. Oh, we can’t sell green. You know. Or, no you must do this knee-length because this is the best thing because boots are happening and it’s all going to… No, no, no, our customer wants something much longer. And they would be very nice and courteous and do all the thing, but then the product was changed completely really.

So when they changed the length or the proportions et cetera…

We never saw – you’re going to say, why didn’t I change it back – we never saw the end result – what we had approval on was the initial sample, which we looked at and approved, Betty Jackson Page 441 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side A (part 43) and then they always came back to say, we did market research, we showed it to our managers in this and everybody wanted…. and it was too late to change it, and everybody wanted a longer length or everybody wanted the jacket to be slightly roomier. Or, everybody wanted the neck to be slightly higher, you know. And eventually you realise that you’re hitting your head against a brick wall and so I decided that I didn’t want to renew the contract.

So these decisions were being taken without consulting you?

Yeah, and without knowledge. And also you know, there came a time during the seasonal year of course, when you know, I had too much to do here to… so one works sort of essentially on trust and one works on okay, this has been signed off, that’s what’s happening. And then you know, you’d get either an e-mail or a package saying, oh, really sorry, but we just had to change this because, and just for your information, you know, the length of this will be, and it almost got – and sorry, it’s too late to change because it’s already gone into manufacturing. And you know, that’s the way they did entirely as they wished.

So it’s not just bored that you were, sounds like?

No, I suppose not.

Did you, how did you, I mean in what circumstances did you leave?

Oh, the contract came to an end and I indicated that I didn’t want to renew it.

But I mean was there discussion, was it just…

Er, yes. But I was very, very clear, so that was fine. I mean Autograph went on, carried on after I’d left it. You know, I mean it was always civilised and things, but you know, I did make it quite clear that… they understood it.

[End of Tape 22 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 442 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

Tape 22 Side B [part 44]

Can you say a bit more about Autograph, you know, the building up of it and the launch of it and all that?

Well it sort of sounds odd, but it was extraordinary really, and it was hugely successful, and it did create a stir, largely because you know, Marks and Spencer’s was regarded as such a stuffy old thing and so for them to launch this thing… And you know, even, I mean things always, I don’t mean to end on a sour note really, I thought it was a great concept, Autograph, I still think it is, but you know, we did, initially we, you know the merchandise went in and there wasn’t a single thing left after a week. I mean it was an extraordinary success story. And then of course you know, everybody was beating their breasts about they hadn’t looked at it carefully enough, there was a missed opportunity here, you know they couldn’t actually get any more repeat merchandise in there, so you know, they were faced with whole areas that had been sort of done up and done out and you know, with nothing [laughs] in them at all. And so the powers that be then sort of got hold of it and started to sort of interfere a little bit more. And instead of – I think that they thought it would be almost like a loss leader at the beginning. I think that they thought this would engage this customer who, as I said before, was buying her food and her knickers there, but I think that after the first week of the launch they realised that it could be a hugely successful thing financially. And so the stakes, you know with collection number two the stakes got higher and – which was great – but it became no longer a sort of, you know almost a – the whole feeling of Autograph changed. With continued success, I think probably for two or three years really. And then as their personnel changed and you know a whole new feeling, the pressure was then on to do something that was incredibly commercial and people became rather nervous of it rather than, you know, the challenge of let’s do this, let’s put this out and see, this is gorgeous, you know, let’s try it. And instead of that people, you know people were sort of nervous and I think it was entirely to do with pressure from above. The manager had somebody breathing down her neck and he, the merchandiser had somebody breathing down his neck and then the divisional director had somebody breathing down, you know and Autograph suddenly became very, a big part of what they had to talk about and so therefore Marks and Spencer’s didn’t want to be embarrassed about Autograph’s results. Betty Jackson Page 443 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

And why initially couldn’t they restock when everything sold out?

Ah well I suppose the manufacturing bases were mostly offshore. Ours were actually made… but you know, because to actually order cloth and make garments takes a length of time. You know, nobody had stock available just like that, so it was almost sort of starting from scratch again. So you order your fabrics, you know, to weave fabric takes time, to dye it in the right colour takes time, to cut and make a jacket takes time, so you were looking at sort of four to six weeks minimum turnaround on anything that they needed, by which time the season is over and of course you’re into the next season.

And can you remember any of the things that you designed, especially ones that went really well?

Our knitwear was very successful and the leather was very successful at the beginning. I suppose because at that time for our main range we were treating leather as sort of almost cardigans and you know, things, a layer of things that you wouldn’t necessarily just keep for outerwear, but you would wear as an extra layer in your office or at home or you know, and it was very soft, thin leather and it was raw cut and unlined. So that was incredibly successful. Jersey pieces were. I mean it was all very simple, but it actually was done so that you could mix it together simply. You know, you could get a great skirt with a great sweater and then shove a leather cardigan on top. Fantastic, that’s what everybody wanted to wear at that time.

And what sort of volumes were you designing for?

They were making six to eight hundred pieces per unit, which isn’t at all big for them, I mean because they talk in thousands. But then, I mean our collection must have been about thirty-five or forty pieces. And there were three other designers as well who were also producing.

Who were the others?

Betty Jackson Page 444 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

Katharine was one. Julien MacDonald I think was early on. The shocking thing is I can’t remember number four, so sorry about that.

And I mean Marks and Spencer famously in recent years has had terrible financial problems, terrible merchandising problems – why do you think that is?

I think they forgot about the product. I think – there used to be a terrible arrogance running through the company that because it had a St Michael label - which actually they don’t do any more do they, but Marks and Spencer’s label in - it would sell. I think that that’s extraordinarily complacent. I think also the competition suddenly boomed, everybody saw what they were doing – and they did it terribly well in the beginning, I mean they really did do it terribly well – and I think everybody just looked at it and did it better.

How, who?

Well, Dorothy Perkins started to do it, Debenhams started to do it, even places like the House of Fraser broadened their designer appeal. There was, you know, everybody updated everybody, got on to it and improved. I mean it always happens I think, once you’ve got somebody or something that happens, that is successful, it’s inspirational to everybody else of course, of course. It actually gives everybody a kick up the backside and Marks and Spencer’s did keep Autograph under wraps until the launch day, so it did actually hit like a bolt of lightning, you know, it had a huge press coverage and then the public received it so brilliantly, you know. I used to go and walk round and have a look and be asked for my autograph, you know. I mean be literally asked for my autograph. And people used to come and shake my hand saying I’m so pleased I can get this… which is all very nice, but it was because it was made beautifully, it was at great prices, the quality of the fabrics you know, certainly that we used were fabulous, you know and everybody wanted to be part of it. It was a great thing to do at the beginning. I think they forgot that merchandise has to be desirable.

So, you’ve indicated to some degree with the hem lengths and proportions and so forth, I mean are there other, you know, where else did they go wrong? Betty Jackson Page 445 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

Well I think to move anything on you have to be brave, and I think they also forgot to be brave. It will come back though because it always does, it probably has already, I haven’t been in for a while. But everything goes in circles and you know, you have to be brave, you have to be innovative and you have to try and do something that nobody else is doing. It’s pointless doing things that other people are already doing well.

And in what way were Dorothy Perkins, Debenhams, whoever, doing it better?

I think that they were appealing to a much more fashion conscious person, they were certainly less expensive, the turnover of merchandise was quicker. They had a much bigger offer, I mean they had a huge number of – they had at least ten or twelve working in there. They also named the designers before Marks and Spencer’s ever did. There was a huge hoo-ha about this that you know, the board of directors said that the Marks and Spencer’s name was bigger than any of us collectively, and so it was a while before they actually acknowledged the name of the designer responsible for any particular product. I mean the only way you could see was by the style number and on my swing ticket it said ‘BJ’ and then the style number. And so each designer had their initial on in order to identify the style in the warehouse I suppose, but apart from that, you know they were terribly arrogant about you know, allowing anybody to know who had done it, which – and then Debenhams heralded Jasper Conran, Ben de Lisi, John Rocha, John Richmond, you know, Maria Grachvogel, Edina Ronay – they were all up there in their stores and everybody wanted to be connected with the designer, you know it wasn’t enough. You know, you wanted to sort of buy into a part of their gang in a way.

What do you think Marks and Spencer could or should do to recover their…

D’you know, I’m absolutely not involved at all with them now. I think Stuart Rose has got a huge task in front of him, I think he’s rising to the challenge. I think it’s very easy to criticise somebody when you’re outside of the organisation, and so I really wouldn’t presume. I think it’s just, I mean everybody can say oh you should do this, and you should do that. But in fact having seen how difficult it is to move a large company like that and maintain the standards and do things on a day-to-day basis, I wouldn’t presume. Also Betty Jackson Page 446 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44) we’re involved with Debenhams now so I don’t think it’s appropriate I comment on Marks and Spencer’s.

Tell me about that.

Well they rang soon after it was made public that I was not continuing with Autograph and said that they’d like us to join their stable of designers. We then took a while to make our decision, because I sort of didn’t want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire, but in fact we are working with them and the first collection will be available from September. And they have a completely different way of working, so we’ll see. We’re very excited about it, I’m excited because it means that, you know we are hitting another market. I do think it’s important. I mean I know everybody can’t afford the mainline collection, we have launched a diffusion line, Betty Jackson Two, which we actually did as a result of me leaving Autograph, because we got a number of letters saying, oh my goodness, you know, I can’t afford it, where am I gonna get your clothes from. And so as a direct response to that we launched, a couple of years ago we launched this diffusion range, which was also why we delayed the decision on Debenhams because we thought it might affect. But in fact Debenhams is aimed at a different customer and it’s younger, it’s cheaper, it’s jollier, it’s more instant, I think it’s going to be great.

And in what way is their attitude different, or their approach different?

They’re very brave, they you know, if I go in and say yellow, they all do yellow. They believe you. They have – and also, I mean partly to do with the fact that Designers at Debenhams has been hugely successful, hugely successful, so they are speaking from a position of strength, so they have no reason to doubt what a designer says and if they choose the designer for a particular look – Jasper Conran’s clothes do one thing, John Rocha’s clothes do something completely different. As do John Richmond’s, as do Julien MacDonald’s, as do Matthew Williamson’s, so they are aiming at a particular market, a particular woman and they’ve tailor made each collection to hit that woman that the designer wants to hit really, so ours is treated in the same way. But they do know what they’re doing, the organisation is fantastic, simply because they’ve had the experience now Betty Jackson Page 447 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44) for a number of years and they’ve made it work very well. So we’re just part of, we’re a small cog in a big wheel that already knows how to turn.

Not long after you worked for Marks, or started working for Marks and Spencer’s you opened your own shop.

Mm.

The first one?

Mm. It was, the only one and it’s fabulous. It was fabulous, it still is fabulous, on the same site. It’s great, we were very lucky to be offered a retail space and we took the opportunity, it was completely perfect really and it was always a great way to show the collection how we wanted to show it. It’s where most things are available, you know, it’s our feeling in environment, it’s a very, very tiny little shop, but it’s great, I’m extremely pleased that we’ve got it. It’s a bit of a showcase, it’s you know, a way of introducing people to the collection. It’s a way of ensuring that the collection is always shown in the right way, because if you sell as we do, to various smaller shops and department stores, they only see part of it and so this is a way of getting the whole thing out there really.

Can you say a bit more about the decision to do it and the location and so on?

Well it’s in a little place called Brompton Cross and our friend at the time, Joseph, had just opened a big shop that used to be the Conran Shop because Terence Conran moved to the Michelin building there and Joseph had always wanted what was then the Conran Shop. So he got that and this shop came up and it was Issey Miyake but they had got premises across the road, larger premises across the road that they wanted to move into and didn’t really want to advertise the fact that they were leaving. In fact they were only moving across the road, but anyway, for one reason or another. And so I think Joe talked to David and it was just sort of – we’d sort of had the intention for a while, or we’d sort of talked about the idea for a while, but because we knew nothing about retail we were quite cautious about doing it. Anyway, this opportunity came up and so yeah, we took it. It was great. Betty Jackson Page 448 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

Why had you thought about it and talked about it for quite a while?

Because of the very fact that people buy your collection and I thought that the message was being diluted or we weren’t being represented as well as we could be. I mean unless you do concessions and unless you do shops within shops, then you know, you’re open to the buyer’s decision, you know the buyer’s likes and dislikes rather than your own. And so for quite a while I had wanted to represent the collection more fully and more thoroughly.

And what did it involve, setting up the shop, I mean how…?

Well it was already a retail space so we involved an architect and - who transformed it into ours – David Chipperfield, he was great - and we did a wholesale buy, we did an order for it which was really, you know, another leap in the dark, but actually the first collection went really quite well. And we had to employ shop staff and you know, all that sort of stuff, it was quite a sort of exciting thing really.

And, do you have other stores now?

No, no.

That’s it?

That’s it, yeah.

Still in the same location?

Uh huh. Yeah. We thought about opening a couple more, we came quite close to it, but in fact rents in London have gone up considerably in the last four or five years and so it would be quite difficult to know where to open another one.

What about other towns or cities?

Betty Jackson Page 449 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

Yes, we had one up in Leicester for a while, but that closed because, the problem with personnel, I mean the person who ran it left and it was too difficult to sustain out of London. And, yeah, that’s it really. I mean we also, I mean it’s a terrible responsibility because retail is a different world and you know, it was something we took on as well as everything else so we sort of only now know a bit what we’re doing with it. But it’s still really exciting, it’s still great to go in and think you know – I’ve got a great team there at the moment, they are fantastic and it really does very well indeed. And you know, it’s just a nice environment for people to meet in and try things on and you know, have a bit of a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and it’s nice.

And you’ve expanded your range in other ways?

Yeah, accessories are now a big part of it. Knitwear continues to be strong. But yeah, it is quite a comprehensive range now. We also, we stock jewellery and various little other things in the shop. There’s a girl called Jemima Thornton who was at the RCA who’s a jewellery designer who does a little range for us. But generally it is all our product – shoes, bags, coats, scarves – the lot.

D’you have any sort of, ambition is the word or something, would you like to see more women, lots of women, you know wearing your…?

It’s always a pleasure to see people wearing things or to know that you know, they’ve been in or to actually meet them and you know, and they talk about what you do. Of course. One is always aware that there’s a huge choice out there now, why on earth should they choose me, so you know, I’m still amazed that people do really, I mean that hasn’t gone from day one. But I do think that we do lovely things now. I think that it is a very well kept secret, I think that we are still small, that’s our fault because we could have expanded and we made the decision to keep it small. Whether or not that will happen in the next five years, we just have to see. I think what we’ve stopped doing is making a fixed plan. There is a five-year plan, but it’s obviously flexible considering the things that we’ve been through and the things that we’ve done and have worked on things that we’ve wanted to do that haven’t worked. I mean we’re quite keen on expanding our market internationally now. We are showing in Paris again, which we haven’t done for a while, but we’ve done Betty Jackson Page 450 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44) it and that’s been tremendously successful. And it’s odd because we’re selling to really nice shops who have no history with us at all and sort of don’t know who we are, you know and don’t realise that we’ve been around for so long, and are coming with a completely new concept and that’s really very refreshing. And the same with the customers in the shop, you know they’re sort of vaguely aware that you know, I’ve been around for a bit, but really if they haven’t seen the merchandise or they haven’t looked, then there’s a whole new younger customer who’s coming in and being thrilled about it. So that’s all very exciting. We’ve been through a bit of a sort of rebirth I think over the last three or four years, maybe. And people have sort of got understanding a little bit more about the merchandise is, you know some things there’s only twelve of them in the world. You know, if from the whole collection we’ll sell something terribly well but there might be a much more complicated dress that we absolutely love and we’ve only sold six of them. Well, we will still make the six of them, so then there are only six pieces of this gorgeous thing, you know. But I think that that’s quite a nice thought. We very rarely revisit things, things develop from, but we very rarely re-do things, so that’s a rather nice thing that when it’s finished it’s finished and we’re on to the next idea. So it’s still very exciting. I mean I still feel it’s moving forward in the right way, but you know the Debenhams thing is another thing, which we’ve no idea how it’s going to go. There’s the accessory thing that we want to expand. We want to have a look at America and see what we can do there. So you know, the next few years are going to be a much more positive expansion I think. We finally understood that. You have to have a bit of a plan. Better than no plan at all.

What about the problems with the dollar – I mean you talked about the crash in America, or the dollar’s still quite…?

It is, but I mean you know, there are, the then, I don’t think you can under-estimate the desirability of fashion. It’s a passion thing isn’t it, whatever happens, you know working on our level, I think that there’ll still be a demand and what we’ll do is try and do the more special things rather than the basics. We wouldn’t go into America doing basic sportswear because they’re so clever at that themselves.

D’you ever design for an individual? Betty Jackson Page 451 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

Erm, yes. Well we’re asked to do clothes for special occasions sometimes. I’ve done a few dresses to be married in in my time. We worked on the Absolutely Fabulous television thing. Yeah, we’ve done lots of special things. We’ve done a few things for special occasions.

And you talk about ‘we’…

Oh I always say ‘we’, it’s ‘cos I feel so stupid saying ‘I’ all the time and I don’t like to hear it. And it’s also because I don’t do any of this on my own, I honestly don’t. I have a fantastic team out there and I couldn’t do it without them and they must be part of it, they must be part of it and they must always know that they’re part of it. And I’m very, very careful that, you know, I take the blame, but we do the collection.

When you talk about initiatives – where do the initiatives come from, say to expand or to set up a shop or to start a new line or whatever?

Well because we don’t work in a vacuum, nobody works in a bubble. You know, we all talk to each other and we all – you know, there’s people here who I respect their opinion of, who live in the world, who see what’s going on. And you know, I mean things come up, we have regular staff meetings, we have regular meetings about you know, their gripes and complaints and if they’re doing well or if they’re doing badly and all of that and it can be as simple as a conversation. Or, can be talking to other people or, you know, everybody’s out there working in this world of journalists, of friends, of other designers, of shops, there’s you know, the sales team that come back with reports. It’s in the ether, really.

What about David, does he suggest ventures?

He usually assesses whether they’re viable or not. He has quite a lot to do with the organisation. But he’s quite intuitive too, so he usually understands completely about what people are talking about.

Betty Jackson Page 452 C1046/10 Tape 22 Side B (part 44)

But doesn’t initiate particularly?

I wouldn’t say that, although that gives the wrong impression really. He, I think he was very keen on, I think he did see that we ought to have a retail space. But generally, you know, collection follows collection and he will not actively seek partners, but he deals with them when they come along.

[End of Tape 22 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 453 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45)

Tape 23 Side A [part 45]

This is Eva Simmons talking to Betty Jackson. It is Friday the third of June 2005 and we’re starting tape twenty-three. And Betty, we’ve got to sort of the late 1990s in your narrative and I have a note here that 1999 – by the way, I should just say for the record that the Autograph collection was the year 2000 and your work with M&S, Marks and Spencer, started in 1990 according to my records, that’s just to place that. But in 1999 you were named Contemporary Designer of the Year and also became a Visiting Professor at the RCA, Royal College of Art. And so, please tell us about those things.

Well the Contemporary Designer of the Year was great because in – well, I have won quite a few awards in my time and I actually do believe that there is a time in your career when you do win awards and you know, happily it was at the beginning and I’d got Designer of the Year. And then you sort of think that that stage is over because there are always people who are following you or, you know, and need the encouragement, you know, I think that there is a time for awards. So it was a bit of a shock when [laughs] I got this sort of Contemporary Designer. What had happened was that you know, the ten years I suppose, the fifteen year span of the award thing, it had sort of changed in character and there’d been sort of lots of discussion about this – the BFC have taken it over now and it’s much….

The British…?

The British Fashion Council have taken it over now and it’s a much more sort of celebrated event. And the categories were sort of running wild, you know, you sort of got an award for just being there really, at one point. Anyway, I was pleased to get Contemporary Designer. First of all because contemporary means you know, that you’re sort of still up there doing it in a fashion forward, cutting edge sort of way, which was good and it came just at a time where we had been actively trying to get us out of this box we were in, design-wise, you know, and sort of relaunch and reinvent and change direction slightly, without ever changing philosophy. I’m not talking about changing basic principles, but the whole collection got younger, got much more contemporary really. And so that was a really, that was a great thing to get because it was the stage when we were Betty Jackson Page 454 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45) doing that. The Visiting Professor was also good. I was involved in the Royal College of Art, as I think I’ve said, right at the beginning of my career when I was a sort of tutor and I went in on a weekly basis. The Royal College paid my rent for - well I mean actually it never ran to paying my rent, it paid for one or two dinners I think, that’s all. However, I absolutely, I think if ever you’ve been involved with any sort of creative institution like that, it’s sort of overwhelming. It’s almost the feeling that I had when I went to art college at first, you know. I really love these places, I love the whole thing, I become really rather foolish in these places because I love the fact that it celebrates creativity, I love the fact that it is, it allows people to develop aesthetically and I love the fact that the emphasis is on that sort of thing. So I had fallen out of love with the Royal College, really because of the people who were running the courses and I had sort of disagreed really. I always thought it was a place of excellence, and then in the 1990s it became rather unfashionable to be so elitist – and I’m not elitist as a person, I don’t believe in hierarchy at all, but I do believe in excellence and I do believe in the best and I do believe if you put the best together with the other best, you will get better than best, but I think if you put the best in with mediocre and poor, they will not have a reason to push themselves and I think everybody needs a kick up the backside now and again. And so during the early nineties, there was – in the fashion textile school at any rate – a feeling that they absolutely must at all costs get people who were slightly disadvantaged I suppose, so people from BTech courses – nothing wrong with BTech courses, nothing wrong with vocation courses and I absolutely agree that now and again, you know, you get a real talent who pushes through and ought to be allowed to continue, but as a general rule of thumb, to mix this up is what I did and I thought that the standard dropped because of this. And I wasn’t interested in, at that time in my life, spending time with people who weren’t absolutely committed and had something to say, really. You know, you’d be sort of running round, I don’t know, explaining the rudiments or explaining the basics or not really – you know, by the time people get to the Royal College – I’m being very long-winded about this, I’m sorry – but by the time people get to the Royal College I do think that they should have sorted out a personal philosophy and the point about that place, I think, is that you’re allowed to do it, you’re allowed to continue, you’re allowed to develop your own philosophy as a designer. And when you’re starting from scratch with people I don’t think that’s the place to do it. And so that’s why I had fallen out of love. However, Wendy Dagworthy then went and took over and took up the reins and has been brilliant, I think. And I suppose, you know, Betty Jackson Page 455 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45) if she were the Prime Minister I would be called a crony. [laughs] But, anyway, it was very nice to be offered the Professorship and you know, and I was rather pleased to accept. So it meant that over a two-year period I went in on a much more regular basis. And I still go in and do projects and do crits and do tutorials and things like that there and I still absolutely love it when I do and I think that what is happening there, it is completely right, you know, it is gradually going back to being the best of the best and I’m thrilled to be associated with it.

When you say you had fallen out with them – how literally d’you mean that?

Oh, not… When the new – Joanne Brogden retired, Alan Couleridge took over and I thought, I mean he was brilliant, he’d always sort of been a brilliant second and he’s such a nice man. And then I think that the powers that be, ie the Rector, a volatile chap who was at the time Jocelyn Stevens, decided that they needed somebody else and sort of really pushed Alan out and the other person, it was just that I, first of all I didn’t agree with how, I was a bit upset about how Alan had been treated because he’s a quiet man, but he was incredibly effective I thought, with the students. However, you know, I’m not in charge and it wasn’t for me to… But, it’s sort of the principle being that if you’re part of a body that is going along in one direction, the assumption is of course that you agree with the direction it is taking and I found myself in disagreement with – and rather frustrated about it. So I thought the best thing was actually to just back off, because I certainly wasn’t in any, I wasn’t on permanent staff, I wasn’t on… you know, I was a part-time casual labourer really, there, so I thought the best thing would be to just sort of back off and see. So I did, I, you know, pressure of work, couldn’t spare the time and that was it. And then when there was a regime change, I went back.

But how forcefully, if at all, did you express your opinions about the way they were going?

To people who were in charge? I think I might have had a couple of conversations with the… But, the thing was, that once you’ve said it and once you’ve actually said – it’s a bit like you know, you say you experience of something, you say what you feel the consequences of a certain way is going to be and you actually present the other point of the argument and say, if you do this I think this will happen, and if you do this I think that this Betty Jackson Page 456 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45) will happen, but the consequences will be this. Then you have to actually leave it up to people who are in the position of power to decide. And they decided and they decided not to take any notice of what I was saying, so that’s fine. You know, that’s fine, absolutely their… they had a different vision for the place, they had a different – and it was a different time. And some people would say that it was good. I personally think it was a very, very bad, gloomy time for the Royal College of Art and I think it lost a lot of credibility, both nationally and internationally and I think it’s taking a long time to claw that back. But you know, I also, I mean I think that that was also to do with you know, other things that were happening in education at the time. You know, the money situation is ridiculous now, it’s absolutely ridiculous; most MA students have to have two other jobs to be able, to allow them to go to college. They’re on the breadline, they’re poor, you know, these students. And it’s really tragic.

So are you talking about the Royal College generally, not just fashion, but…

No, I don’t have any, I’m only talking about the Fashion and Textiles School, I have nothing to do with any of the other schools at all. And also, I mean the great thing was that Christopher Frayling, Sir Christopher Frayling took over and he’s a brilliant, brilliant man. He’s a brilliant man in every respect I think and has really led the place into a better place I think.

How does his brilliance express itself?

He’s just understanding, he’s incredibly intelligent. He’s not at all to do with self- promotion, although how he handles everything he does I just don’t know. He’s absolutely reasonable in his arguments, he’s a problem solver I think, he’s modern, he’s terribly advanced, he’s terribly knowledgeable, he absolutely has the welfare of the students – and also realises I think that he’s sort of custodian of this particular appointment, you know. And he will pass it on and what he passes on he wants to be better than… he’s been involved in the place for a long time, he’s been second in command for many, many years before he got the top job and he should have got it long time before, but he’s doing great things. Huge respect.

Betty Jackson Page 457 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45)

And when Wendy took over in fashion, how did she go about or bring about the changes that you’ve talked about?

Well, it takes a while of course before she’s involved in the intake, you know, so there were two years went past before she actually chose the new people to come in. I think that she’s much more discriminating, I think that she’d rather have fewer people on the course than actually people who are less talented. I think she, she’s a woman who – I don’t know anybody who dislikes Wendy. I think if you mention her name everybody smiles and everybody has nice things to say, so she has enormous respect through a wide range of people in the industry. She had also been at St Martins for several years and so had sort of cut her teeth on that enormous, ramshackled place, uncontrollable place [laughs] I think. But again, you know, where creativity was the most important. I think that in the forefront of her mind is always, you know, design, design, design, design, design and everything else comes second. She’s started to travel, you know, she’s a great ambassador for the place and nobody can question her own ability either, you know. She went out of business because of circumstances, not because of her design talent and I think she’s bringing, there’s so many more designers going through the place. There’s, you know, from every level, you know. Lanvin, Alber Elbaz goes through from Lanvin, Emma Cook goes there, McQueen goes there, Colin McDowell goes – I mean you know, the breadth of folk that she has through the place, it’s fantastic. So the students are exposed to such a huge variety of designers who are working, who are contemporary and working in different areas of the industry. Really I think that that’s quite crucial too. You can’t be isolated if you’re doing an MA in a London based college, you’ve got to get international pretty quickly I think.

And, you’ve just touched on, she went out of business because of circumstances, can you just explain a bit?

Oh, just economic circumstances I think. You know, there was a recession and grimness just all round.

And, just going back to your award, Contemporary Designer of the Year, that was awarded by the British Fashion Council was it?

Betty Jackson Page 458 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45)

Mm, mm.

And, you said something about you were getting out of the box that you were in – what d’you mean by that?

Oh I think we were at that point, also because we had survived this dreadful recession, so you know, when we started our contemporaries were people like Caroline Charles, Jasper – although he is younger than me, but nevertheless had sort of started his business round about the same time – Roland [sic – Calvin?] Klein, Jean Muir, Janice Wainwright, you know that sort of calibre and I think that then there was this sort of new young thing that happened with Alexander McQueen and Stella and well, no before that, John Galliano of course and all of that, and I think that we had been sort of put in you know, almost like sort of Jaeger, you know, British classic really rather than you know, young contemporary designer and we were sort of struggling to throw off this label because once people – they really want to actually, you know, you’ve got a box, they really would like you to fit in this box because it’s just an easy way of explaining who you are and what you do. So also it meant that people were sort of cutting off rather a large part of what we were doing and it became a bit annoying, a bit frustrating really.

So who put you in the box and who cut you off?

I’m talking about media really. I think that maybe we were not proactive enough. I mean I’m sure they were you know, working - it was a sort of a bit like an epidemic you know, sort of rush us through and oh yes, it’s easy to put her in – it’s just like it’s easy to put lots of people in, people are known, it’s a very easy thing to actually say you know, Lee McQueen is known for you know, those bum trousers that he did, but you know that’s such a long time ago but he may never shake that off. You know, it was only recently that Gaultier, they stopped calling him the enfant terrible of France, but you know, this man is nearly sixty [laughs] and has been doing wonderful things for a long time. You know, and everybody starts off by doing, I suppose, you know much more radical things. And then there’s a period where you readjust and you know, there’s a quieter time where you reassess and personally I think as well, if you’ve sort of created any sort of stir in an area, then you know, there has to be a sort of almost a regrouping moment in your own head Betty Jackson Page 459 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45) rather than anything else. I mean I think if you look at any designer, you know they would say the same thing. There’s an initial impact and then there’s a sort of quieter time and then you decide which road you go on and then there’s a gradual build up. You know, it’s almost you take second breath from it and then that’s the force that you’re going to leave. Lots of people don’t get chance for a second breath as well. So I think that that’s where we were and we were, we had sort of been going along quite passively I suppose and then the action was happening elsewhere and I think it was quite frustrating for us.

Frustrating? Frustrating.

Yeah.

Anything else, I mean how else did you sort of react to being in that situation?

That’s all, just frustrated. I mean we carried on, I mean you can’t, I mean do anything about it if people want to portray you like this, then you take steps to change it that’s all. So we worked really quite hard to change this impression.

So how did you go about that reinventing yourself as it were, reinventing your life?

I think we targeted a younger customer. We tried to sell it in a slightly different way, we tried to put the emphasis on younger elements in the collection. I’d also, you know, got to an age where I certainly didn’t want to, you know, look older than I was. You know, I wanted to sort of at least look the age that I was, but certainly not ten years older and I certainly didn’t want to have anything to do with anything classic, you know, I still don’t. Yes, there’s authenticity, that’s a different word, but you know, we’ve all, and the thing is with the philosophies we have that women, women have to be comfortable in order to be strong and sexy and successful, comfortable became a bad word. Comfortable became to do with old lady, comfortable became to do with frump, comfortable became to do with you know, slightly overweight. Nothing sexy at all, which I absolutely don’t agree with, you know, I think that women are much better, much more confident, much – everything about them changes if they’re comfortable and if they feel at ease in – there’s a good French expression, bien dans son peau, which means you know, you feel well in your skin, Betty Jackson Page 460 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45) but it sounds horrible when you say it in English. [laughs] And it’s to do with comfort, it’s to do with feeling confident that the things that you are wearing reflect what you want to say to the rest of the world.

And how do you combine comfortable and sexy?

It’s quite easy I think. It’s to do with fabrics, it’s to do with the cut, it’s to do with you know, how you put things together. It’s to do with accessories, it’s to do with a lot of things really.

When you say fabric and cut and so forth, d’you mean cling, d’you mean décolletage – what d’you mean?

Well it depends, I mean it can be, depends on an individual as well. Personally I hate fabrics that are harsh to the touch, I dislike completely, the whole thing has to be soft. That’s been for a long, long time. I like things that are fluid, but then you know, my favourite skirt last season was sort of a rather sort of bell-shaped stiff satin, cotton satin skirt that I just wore the whole time because I just felt that that’s what I wanted to be. So it can, it changes, I mean it’s not ever one thing but that’s the fabulous thing about fashion really. Changes.

And in this appeal to a younger customer, where does that leave your loyal older following, as it were?

It means that you give them a kick up the backside, it means that you know, you say, have you tried this knee skirt, you don’t need a skirt that actually you know, comes mid calf. Have you tried this knee skirt because what you should be doing is getting some fabulous knee high boots or over the knee boots and who says you can’t wear this at your age, that’s ridiculous. And it means that you actually try and educate them into a different proportion and it means that you try and say, you know, also don’t forget, we weren’t sort of working on our own, we were talking before about Jane Fonda and her workout. This whole generation of women have looked after themselves. You know, when do you see women nowadays who don’t look fabulous whatever age they are. You know, we are all Betty Jackson Page 461 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45) completely health conscious, we are figure conscious. You know, a lot of us would like to be two stone lighter of course, you know and I wish my bum was smaller, of course, and I wish I was slightly taller, yes, all of those things, but nevertheless, you know, there is a choice out there. There are moisturisers, there are you know, everybody takes cleanliness now for granted, whereas when I was little, you know, going back to my grandmother you know, a bath a week. And, you know, well she had two, but she had hot water and stuff so she had somebody to run her bath for her, so d’you know what I mean, it was – but it’s not that long ago. Now, everybody’s taking their clothes off much more, you know, but everybody’s body conscious and everybody feels better because of it. You know, how many women over the age of forty now are actually really making it a priority to keep fit and feel better, because long term it serves you well. People are caring about this sort of thing, their eating, it’s… So within that context, I think that you know, fifty year olds are getting younger.

And how do you distinguish now for example, would you say there are certain fashions, in the length of skirt or whatever, that an older woman cannot wear – how do you sort of draw boundaries?

Well I do think it’s dodgy to wear a miniskirt over a certain age, you know, unless you’ve got absolutely wonderful legs. Because usually, wonderful legs, your knees sort of start to go at a certain age, so you know, it is to do with that self-critical look which I think certainly, you know, British women are really sometimes not very good at. You know, they’ll look at themselves front on, they won’t turn round to the side or the back. Side maybe, back never. You know and it is to do with that sort of all round vision of what you look like. Now, I think because everybody travels these days, because internet, because, you know, the world is getting smaller, you go and you see other things and it opens up another door for you doesn’t it. And so generally people are taking more holidays, they’re also going on holiday at different times of the year. Your body needs to be up to scratch at any given moment really. Exposure could be round the corner.

Are there any objective criteria to say, this age woman looks good in this but not in that – d’you see what I mean?

Betty Jackson Page 462 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side A (part 45)

No, I think rules like that are meant to be broken, I think it entirely depends on the individual. I mean I have a great friend who’s – well two great friends – who are very, very well known who are fifty-eight, fifty-nine, but actually have been complete beauties in their day and they come and buy clothes and almost, I mean they’re sort of shockingly dismissive of how – because they’ve always had beauty and it’s interesting to see their approach really, it’s interesting to see how they will wear certain things, they won’t wear other things. But I really think it’s entirely on the individual. If you – and it’s also a time where you just must try something new, but always get advice. Don’t go by yourself and you know, think that you’re making the right decision. But you know, the best thing is to go with somebody that you absolutely trust, you know, unless you know the person who’s actually dressing you. But I don’t think there are any rules at all. There are lots of things in the collection that I wouldn’t wear, but there’s lots of things that I do wear and I wear the same thing that my thirty year old assistants wear, but I wear them in a different way. It’s fine. You sort out what proportion is good for you.

What wouldn’t you wear?

Well I only ever – well I’m in bright colour today, I’m in navy blue today so I’ve gone and pushed the boat out for summer, but personally I prefer things that are terribly, terribly simple. I sort of, I like this feeling of anonymity, I really like, I’m not really a good judge. I sort of want my clothes to be more and more and more anonymous. That’s not to say that I don’t enjoy putting something new on. I mean, I’m very lucky, I get, I have new things from each new collection I choose things and you know, I do, I choose things from the collection that I wish to wear, but it’s completely varied. And it varies from season to season because, I mean this season, last winter I only had one jacket and trouser that went together because I don’t want to wear suits any more. But actually, next winter I might be different, I might change. You know, I wanted to just wear skirts and dresses and I still do want to wear skirts and dresses, so that’s what I’ve chosen.

[End of Tape 23 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 463 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46)

Tape 24 Side B [part 46]

Nobody criticises me here of course, and rarely do I get personal comment from my staff, I must say. [laughs] They’re sometimes very complimentary, but we don’t really comment. No, they don’t really comment on me, I suppose I’m lucky in that respect. So I can wear what I want. I can wear absolutely what I want and I do wear what I want for anything. I don’t get stressed about what I wear.

I know you’ve talked about designing things that you would wear – do you consciously design for yourself?

No. I think it’s too narrow a remit that, and I don’t think any designer does. I think you design for your ideal, but your ideal changes, and I certainly don’t, I don’t design for a particular shape or a particular age woman, I think I design for a spirit. You know, the sort of woman that I find interesting.

And how is it, I mean with so many colours to choose from – I mean your collections are very colourful…

Yes. [laughs]

And yet you stay with – well you said navy is a big departure today, but most of the time I’ve seen you in black.

Yeah, yeah. I only ever wear black. What, how come I make that decision? Just laziness on my part, laziness and requires little effort. It means also I can you know, mix favourite things from collections gone past. You know, it’s all the same colour, whereas if one year it’s purple, the next year it’s orange, the next year it’s yellow, it’s tricky to… So no, it’s just complete laziness on my part.

But what message does that give to your clients?

Well I’m not, you see I – d’you mean about me being lazy? Betty Jackson Page 464 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46)

No, no, no. Well, if you want to comment on that, fine, but I meant more in terms of just sticking to black when you’re designing so many colours.

Yes. Well because I don’t do it for myself, I suppose. I do it for [laughs] – big philanthropist – I do it for other people. [laughs] That sounds rather silly, doesn’t it? I think maybe I – to say it’s laziness is a flippant remark, to, why I choose black – I think I impose this regulation on me, it’s something to do with, it could become excessive couldn’t it? I could, if I wanted, get one of everything in every colour, but I wouldn’t dream of it, that’s something probably to do with my severe northern upbringing, I don’t know. But as far as – I mean, and then everybody doesn’t have the same attitude as me, lots of people love to wear colour, lots of people’s approach to colour is just as rigid as mine but in a different way. You know, people will never wear acid colours, people will never wear pastel colours. Some people will never wear primary colours, some people won’t wear green because it’s unlucky. You know, everybody has a different colour theory don’t they? It’s also to do with the feel of the moment really, I mean it’s also to do with you know, what’s in the air. Certainly I think our colour has become more beautiful, you know, I think it’s more careful now than it was. I think it’s, I think it’s more sensitive and I think it’s rather more grown-up, really.

What d’you mean by all those adjectives?

Well, just I think we are, and as each collection is led by a different idea means that you go and look at another source of inspiration and it means that you go, you know, I mean India is sort of constantly there. Oh!

[break in recording]

India is constantly there and in the way that it is a country of extremes and a country of opposites that I’m sure I’ve mentioned before, but on the one hand you know, you have brilliant jewel-like colours and then on the other hand you have the most delicate – you know, their traditional embroideries – and the most delicate hues and the most intricate, precise way of stitching that they have and attention to detail and you know, in the midst Betty Jackson Page 465 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46) of all this chaos. And in a way, you know, once one has explored one side there is always the other side of some particularly inspirational piece to look at, really. And it comes back to our work, I think I always say that fundamentally my work is to do with opposites, it’s always to do, you know basically with matte and shine, with putting different, opposite fabrics together with not necessarily juxtaposing colours because once you’ve done one big opposite like a matte and a shine, you’d probably have to get them quite close in colour…

Sorry, a what?

Like a matte and a shine fabric. You’d probably have to get them quite close in colour to make it work, or certainly not clashing. So you know, in any problem, in any design problem, you approach it in the same way, you approach colour. Okay, there’s the crudeness and the vitality and the energy of it, but then there’s the softness and there’s the wearability. You know, there’s the sort of gentle hue to look at as well, so I think that we try to look at both.

So, is a colour beautiful in itself or are you talking predominantly about the relation of colours to one another?

Well most colours are beautiful in themselves, but then you know, you can either make it crude or soft, whatever you put it next to really. Or indeed, you know, what fabric you put it in. If you put a bright corn yellow for example, on to a canvas, cotton canvas, it will look completely different from if you dye exactly the same colour in a silk georgette. So one would be you know, rather sort of bang in your face and another will be much softer, but that’s the nature of the fabric. But all of those elements, you know, you bring in when you’re doing clothes, it’s not, it’s slightly more than just putting paint on a canvas, flat colour, it’s never flat colour when it gets to clothes, because clothes move and clothes are three-dimensional and clothes have a life and clothes do different things.

And how does, I mean can you give examples of where two colours together would be crude or two colours together would be beautiful?

Betty Jackson Page 466 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46)

It really depends on, I mean without a colour palette it’s quite difficult to talk in this little grey meeting room about [laughs] it, I mean I could do a demo about it, but the thing is you need colours in front of you to do this thing. But you know, I can think of, in the last collection, the winter collection we showed yellow against purple. Well that sounds really quite alarming, with some royal blue in there too. Now that’s really frightening if you say those colour words, but actually, because of the nature of the yellow and because of the density of the purple and because there was sort of a smoky lilac in between to temper the whole thing, it really worked very beautifully. So that’s just off the top of my head. But of course it would be, somebody else will just think it’s hideously ugly.

And going back to you being the Contemporary Designer, just a very few years ago, your generation of designers, so many of them have sunk without a trace and you’ve carried on year on year and been in business on your own now for twenty-four years and been working in the profession for thirty years or whatever. So, I mean how is it that you’ve managed to survive when so many people haven’t?

[laughs] Well, I suppose it’s, er, well firstly we must have just sold more than other people, in the beginning. Then I think a lot of it must have been to do with David, my partner, who’s sort of run the whole thing and he’s run it really carefully, he’s run it – I mean he’s actually been incredibly cautious. I mean he has a difficult role really, because he’s not involved with design although he will comment if he doesn’t like something, or if he does like something, but almost he has to have this passive role, leave us to it. If the collection is great – fantastic. If it’s shit, then he can’t do anything about that, but he has to pick the pieces up. Now, we don’t necessarily go out to do a shit collection from the beginning, we go out to do the best we can, but you know, in the past we have missed the mark sometimes, you know. I mean I’m not sure that we do it very often these days, but we definitely have missed the mark sometimes, for one reason or another or, you know, and it’s been very difficult. And you can build sales little by little by little by little and do some sort of percentage increase each season, which is what we look to do, but you have a bad reaction or bad publicity about something, people disappear into the woodwork, it’s absolutely incredible. It takes you one season to have, to suffer from a bad collection, but it takes you several seasons to reap the benefits of a good collection and it just is like that. And I think that he’s done a brilliant job really, because we don’t have any backing, we Betty Jackson Page 467 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46) don’t have any, you know, somebody sitting at the back saying don’t worry, you know, if you fall over here’s two hundred and fifty grand, or – you probably need two million now – but anyway, we’ve never had that sort of thing so you know, we’ve almost done it, whatever we’ve sold, we’ve sort of ploughed into the next one and he has the job of prioritising things and trying to take a balanced view. You know, the fact that we’re still here is entirely due to him I think.

I’d like to come back and talk more about his role in it, but can you give any examples of where you missed the mark?

Oh generally, you know I think we went through this time when I you know, my children were very little and I was incredibly stressed and this whole bit that I just have no recollection at all. I have no memory of what I was doing or what day of the week it was or anything, and I certainly think it was very hard to keep being creative under those circumstances.

But you still were winning awards in that time, so how…?

Slightly after. I mean I think it was slightly after that, I think I’m talking about the early nineties, you know, when it was pretty tricky really. So yeah, it was… There was a time where I think that we, yeah, I took my eye off the ball. Maybe I got complacent as well because we had had such success. It did get quite frightening when everybody else was going bankrupt around us, but we’ve actually touched on this, I mean at that point we had a three-year contract with Japan that you know, certainly supported us financially through really dark days, really dark days. And it’s just, you know, I mean I always look at a collection and say oh gosh, I could have done that better. I always want to re-do it immediately when it’s been shown. Doesn’t necessarily mean you get the next one a hundred per cent right.

But what is right and what is wrong? And what is missing the mark?

Oh I know what’s right and what’s wrong for me. You know, we’re talking about you know, we’re not designing somebody else’s collection, we’re talking about what, you Betty Jackson Page 468 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46) know what I want to say as a designer and that sounds, I mean I think that’s quite a bold thing to say really, but nevertheless we are talking about a philosophy, a look, a spirit, a feeling and the way I want to say it and the way I want to move forward and the way I want to, I want to change the way people look, I suppose and how they feel. So you know, this isn’t some fictitious, you know, I really am here, I really exist, I, you know, my name is on the label, I exist, I am a person, I wear these clothes. I like certain things and I dislike other things and so those principles apply to everything. So as far as I am concerned, there are things that are wrong. There are, you know, I hate – well, there’s lots of things I hate – but there are things that are wrong and there are things that actually start to look right.

I’m sorry to keep pressing this point, I know you’re not so keen on it, but I just want to try and imagine, visually, what could violate your philosophy – an example.

Once, in a collection, I don’t know, it must have been about – it was in the mid nineties – that we had, there was one very, very beautiful fabric in the collection and it was a sort of, it was a print and then it was a devoré fabric, so it was where the velvet pile had been eaten away and then on the reverse side of it, it was printed as well, so it was on a – it was a very, very beautiful fabric so it meant that it was, on the inside of the fabric you had completely vivid, fabulous print, and on the outside of the fabric you had, you know the slight little velvet flowers and then the colour had been diffused because you were virtually looking at it as if you were looking at it through gauze. It was a most beautiful fabric and we’d done, I don’t know, a couple of dresses and a skirt and a beautiful little crossover shirt. And it was in the show and it was sort of right, almost at the end and we had, the girl, you know everybody was chaos, and lining up at the back of the thing and she went on wearing this shirt and as she – and when they line up, you know, they have to sort of see me at the last and then the show producer sort of pushes them on and it’s all quite quick and over in a minute. And you know, and I said, yes you look gorgeous. She was a little model – not a little model, she was incredibly tall – but she was quite a new model from Croatia and had come over. As she walked out on to the catwalk, she adjusted her shirt so that both breasts were visible and you know, just slipped it off her shoulder and walked down the catwalk and of course that was the picture that appeared in the newspapers the next day. And somebody, it was – I’ll never forget, Allison Pearson - a Betty Jackson Page 469 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46) journalist wrote in a magazine you know, something about stupid London Fashion Week and to top it all, Betty Jackson showed bare breasts on the catwalk and we expect more from her. But she hadn’t spoken to me about it, but it’s absolutely the thing, she was completely right. You don’t expect that, it’s not something that I would do. I hate sensationalism on any level. I hate publicity seeking cruise missiles like that, I absolutely loathe and detest sexual vulgarity. You know, because there’s just so much more to women than that. You know, there’s just so much more. And so that sort of thing I find distasteful in the extreme. I went beserk – this poor little girl came up and she was just shouted at by everybody. I was so cross about it, and also nobody looked at the beautiful shirt, you know, everybody just looked at her breasts. So you know, you don’t need to do that really and we certainly didn’t need to do that, which sounds pompous, but I am not in the business of victimising women or making women feel vulnerable on any level at all. It is one of my original philosophies really, principles, and she did and that’s what I loathed and hated more than anything.

And how might that have been avoided, d’you think?

Well I’m not sure, I mean I think that you know, the girl wanted to be photographed. She wanted, she was you know, at the start of her career and she wanted to be photographed, so we were merely a tool. Maybe we, maybe we were not careful enough about instructing you know, them – she was the only one to do it. I mean normally models are incredibly sweet and well behaved and beautiful and all of those things but this one was really out for a bit of self-promotion I think, and we were just pawns. Her route to success.

So the problem lay with the application or the interpretation, not with the design as such?

Yes. I would hate to have to, I would hate to have to resort to over-exposure in order to – I don’t think it necessarily spells sex, really. But that’s just my philosophy, other people feel differently.

And did it help her career?

No idea. Betty Jackson Page 470 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46)

But you…

We never used her again.

And the collection and the design, I mean you’ve implied that that…

Well that really, you know, was as much as people reported on it, you know because it was sensational. And it sounds really quite tame because people do it all the time now and nobody bats an eyelid. You know, but then, but then it was – and you know, generally the British media have only really got up to speed about whether they should celebrate fashion or not. You know, there is an undercurrent of feeling that it’s rather foolish and it’s rather giddy and it’s for people who are really, largely unintelligent and you know, if only we had better things to do and stuff like that, but actually, everybody wears clothes, you know, so why not make them lovelier, really.

When we were talking a moment ago about your survival and flourishing and adapting as a designer, you talked about David’s role and sort of gave him some, or I don’t how much of the credit, but how does he, what part does he play in that, what does he actually do?

Well he runs all of the finances, so he has absolute control on what we spend and what projects we do and you know, and the level of staff we have and just about everything really, because you know, he does all of that. I don’t do any of that. He also does quite a lot of the organisation, you know the geographical bit. He’s quite involved in generally the organisation of production, but then you know, we very much leave people to get on with what they’re doing here, I mean it’s… But he, I would say that you know, he just generally has the last say. And then, he never, ever interferes in the collection. He will give his opinion and he will, you know, come through the design room and often you know, say that’s beautiful or what’s that or, you know. He voices it much more ferociously when he doesn’t like something or he thinks something is badly executed. And he’s the harshest critic at show time. You always wait, because he watches the thing from, you know, and he picks up on the atmosphere and he’s brutally honest [laughing] about it. But you know, that’s a good thing, isn’t it? At least you can rely on him always Betty Jackson Page 471 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46) to tell the truth. He’s a very, very truthful person. I’ve never known him lie. Never known him lie. And that’s often quite hard because you know, sometimes a white lie can be nicer. [laughs] But he never does that.

So how d’you feel when he’s brutally honest?

Oh well, if it’s great, it’s great. If it’s harsh, then you know, I will defend myself or there’ll be a reason or you know, we will talk it through, obviously. Sometimes, like I say, you know, we can make mistakes, we can get it wrong sometimes. But as I say, you know, it is a difficult role for him because he doesn’t, there’s nothing he can do. He puts the elements in place, he then expects us to do the best collection. Assistance to do the best supporting role and be as creative as possible, obviously. Production to deliver the best product at the right price at the right time. Sales to sell the most in the nicest possible way to the best clients in the, you know. So, all of those elements he – and office to be run as smoothly as possible you know, with everybody feeling generally pleased to come here. And all of those elements he puts in place, but then sits back and lets people get on with it, really.

When you said he comments sometimes on the fashions, although he doesn’t interfere, but what sort of things does he like? Or not like?

He’s quite, I mean I always think he has a great eye. He likes beautiful things, he’s always liked beautiful things. I mean he’s, I think he looks probably quite classic in the way he looks, but that’s just sort of him and he’s rather French and parts of him are very conservative. But he’s not frightened of colour at all and he’s you know, he’s Mediterranean so he’s used to all, he’s used to clothes being fairly important as well, he’s used to people making statements about the way they look, because that’s part of the French culture. And so you know, there’s a sort of, I suppose one would call it a taste level really. And I think you know, he’s been here quite a long time so I suppose he… no, his opinion you know, I’m not sure we ever have, I’m not sure that I have ever completely changed direction because of what he has said, but he certainly makes you look twice, which is always a good thing I think.

Betty Jackson Page 472 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46)

And how have his, how has his financial management, you know, what – can you be a bit more specific about how that’s helped you to keep going in a way that perhaps other designers haven’t been able to?

Well, it’s really housekeeping isn’t it? You have so much money coming in, you know how much you have coming in and therefore you have that amount to spend after your costs. It’s a simple equation really. And that’s what he decides to do and so maybe – you know, this happens twice a year don’t forget, so you know, it’s a fairly constant thing. You know, by the time you’ve got something in from one thing, another one is happening so you know, the turnover is really quite fast. He also copes with you know, good and bad news. I mean you know, people go bankrupt on us, people owe us money. Or, you know, projects come up that are, that look financially good for us and he will always do the negotiation for that sort of thing.

And…

He also is in charge of the computer system, the whole of the IT, which is fantastic. I remember him first getting a fax machine, replacing the old telex machine and getting a fax machine, and a mobile phone in the car. Which was way, way back, that must have been about 1985 or something. And it was just amazing that you could sort of draw a picture and send it halfway across the world.

Whose decision has it been and how arrived at for you to remain in this scale, relatively small scale that you have?

Oh we decided that together. I mean right at the beginning, we were approached by merchant banks and we were approached by lots of people who wanted to take over, manage and do goodness knows what, and we took the decision that we would rather be small. I think also because you know, it’s been a very productive relationship, it is still a very productive relationship, but it’s not always easy, obviously. I think both of us thought you know, that keeping maybe a third partner happy would be too tricky for both of us really, I don’t know. But anyway, for good or bad, we made the decision a long time that Betty Jackson Page 473 C1046/10 Tape 23 Side B (part 46) we did not want to go corporate, really, and so we didn’t. After a while people stop asking.

So how smooth or otherwise is the partnership now?

I don’t think anything – oh, now it’s smooth, I mean, we still argue, we argue really quite forcefully. I mean we argue about lots of things, you know it’s not, we argue, we argue about staff levels, we argue about the shape the show is going to take, we argue – I mean most of it, most of the arguments are to do with what we can afford to do and what we can’t afford to do. I know he would rather spend money on a new computer system than on a stylist for the show, for example. He, I know that he understands the need for that level of organisation…

[End of Tape 23 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 474 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47)

Tape 24 Side A [part 47]

He’s less enthusiastic about spending money on things that are not so tangible I think, like show stylists or photographic shoots or promotional material or things like that. Although he is aware of course of the long term advantage. But if we need a new computer it gets replaced instantly whereas I have to battle a day for a [laughs] change in stylist or…

And how does your work partnership sort of – I mean do you carry work back into the home for example?

Oh, obviously. You know and that can be really tricky and certainly at the beginning it took a degree of management to actually control that because that can be very hard indeed, because the likelihood is, if you’ve had a terrible day he has too, because the same things have happened. You know, or if there’s a disaster it’s happened to both of us, not one of us and it’s very difficult to shake that off. And coupled with if, you know, if you haven’t agreed with the path that you’ve trod on that has ended up in the results, you know, then that’s even trickier really. So I do think it’s, it’s certainly not, I think yes you would say it’s not been easy, I mean for either of us really. But I think that there’s a huge, I mean you know, there’s obviously love there in the beginning, so you know, you know that that’s there and you know, the security is of course that you know that you have to sort these differences out because you know, you’re there for ever, so you know, you can’t walk away from it, you know, you have to solve them eventually. So that’s really been the strength that both of us have believed that we could not walk away from this. Both of us made a personal commitment I suppose, and when, well I mean I suppose we decided to work together before we decided a personal commitment, I don’t know. But you know, neither of us are gonna welsh on that deal really.

And when you do have a disagreement, how is it resolved? Is there any pattern to who wins, as it were?

Well I hope, I hope there isn’t a pattern to who wins. I hope you know, the person who has the best solution wins really. I think that, I hope that also you know, within any argument we look at the other person’s point of view. Ultimately, I think he would always Betty Jackson Page 475 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47) give me the benefit of the doubt if it was to do with the aesthetic side of it and I would give him the benefit of the doubt if it was to do with the financial or management side. You know, we operate on different floors on this building, so you know, upstairs the design studio’s very much my domain I think, and I sort of almost regard you know, production and management as his. But we’re such a small company that you know, inevitably it spills over, so – but I would, I mean people generally know that they have to go to David for approval on most things. And it’s just better that way, it’s just, you know you can’t have everybody deciding everything. But because we’ve done it for so long now, you know, there aren’t really policy decisions to be made really. You know, we know what we want to achieve, we know where we’re going, we know you know, what points are on the horizon for the next two or three years, so we have you know, a plan stretching as far as that and sometimes, you know, and things crop up and things happen, but generally we do stick to a plan.

And is there any pattern to the sort of things in terms of the clothes that you design that he likes?

No. No, no, no. He, no I think he treats every collection differently. He’s appreciative of most things really.

I mean does he like more classic things or more…

Oh no, no, no because it’s women’s clothes as well, you know, so really, I mean no, it doesn’t make any difference. He will like the most complicated, the most beautiful, the most you know, special thing and then he’ll also like the simplest thing. It’s odd, but it’s like anybody really, you know, it is to do with a taste level and you know, and he’s entirely personal about it.

And how d’you divide up responsibilities at home?

Well, he’s taken on quite a lot of – I mean especially when the children were little. He, because of the nature of his role he’s able to do a lot of his work on a computer, it doesn’t matter where the computer is you know, since the invention of laptops and e-mail, he can Betty Jackson Page 476 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47) be anywhere and do his job, sort of thing. Mine is slightly more studio bound, you know, because I have to touch and feel and look and put things together and shape and pin and goodness knows what. So he’s always had slightly more time. Plus, the children both went to the Lycée, a French school, from when they were little in order that they became bi-lingual, so he dealt with all of that. I think I went to – well, both children say that I was absolutely never at any swimming galas or sports days or anything like that and I think that’s absolutely fine because I loathe swimming galas and sports days and I don’t really see why I should go. So David sort of took up that responsibility, which was great. He’s also a very good cook, so he does – and to be a good cook, actually not many people really realise this, you have to be a great shopper and he is a magnificent shopper. He absolutely loves quality food, he’s passionate about food and it takes up quite a lot of his time. So I think I’m quite lucky, you know, I mean we always used to say you know, the difference between me doing a shop and him doing a shop was quite extraordinary. He would buy exotic things like mangos and I’d come back with you know, Cox’s apples and bananas. But, so that’s, he’s done quite a lot of that really I suppose.

And other domestic stuff?

Well happily, we always said that I didn’t want to spend any time at all hoovering my stairs and I must say, I have never hoovered my stairs, so I think that’s rather an achievement, really. We’ve always had rather wonderful people to look after us and I think that there’s better things to do. I do something in order that this was done for me, so…

And washing and all that, that’s all taken care of?

Gets sorted, yes. I’m happy to say.

How long have you lived where you are now?

Oh, about eighteen years. We moved in when Oliver was three weeks old.

And what’s it like? Betty Jackson Page 477 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47)

Er, it’s a house, in Shepherds Bush. It’s a very simple house. I think, well it’s on a road called Villa, so I think you could probably say it’s a west London Victorian villa, like one of those you draw when you’re little, you know. Door in the middle, two windows down at the bottom and two windows up the top and a garden back and front in a very nice, rather quiet road. But it’s not large, the rooms are sort of quite big, but it was never large enough when you know – it’s actually quite large now because both of my children are sort of temporarily away and I mean it’s rather a nice size for the two of us now, but it was always rather full to bursting really when… but anyway, we always sort of thought that we needed extra space.

And what sort of furniture and furnishings and so on?

Mix of modern and old I suppose. It’s a very sort of comfortable, it’s a comfortable house I suppose. It’s white, some very nice Frinks on the wall – she’s probably one of my favourite artists. There’s other lesser known painters on the wall, but yeah, we’ve got some quite nice paintings. There’s a bit of modern sculpture, bit of modern furniture, few bits and pieces that were my grandmothers, few bits and pieces that were made for us. There’s a sort of an eclectic mix. But it’s certainly not searingly modern or minimal, I think it’s, you know that sort of big white sofa thing, really. Very ordinary.

Did you know Frink, Elisabeth Frink?

I met her once, just before she died.

In what circumstances?

Some friends of ours actually moved to near where she lived and got to know her, but only I think in the last six months of her life and we went to stay with them for the weekend and went across. And subsequently we visited the house, which is, her son now lives in it and most, we spent the most wonderful day there looking at her studio and you know, walking round the water buffaloes in the garden and the Goggle Heads with the most magnificent view of the Downs behind. And you’d go up, drive up the drive and there’s two beautiful Betty Jackson Page 478 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47) running men sculptures running up the side in the grass. Oh! It’s fabulous. I’ve only got a couple of prints and a rather, a very, very beautiful watercolour. A friend of mine has a Goggle Head, of which I am supremely jealous. I went to buy it with her and it’s just the most beautiful thing. Anyway, she’s got it in her kitchen and I’m very jealous of that.

And who else do you – oh, just to go back to her for a moment, I mean how was she?

Oh she was, you know, we met very briefly at a cocktail party and she was really quite ill, it was only about three weeks before she died. But I just love her work, really.

And who else d’you have? What other artists?

Philip Davis, who’s quite a well-known painter, we’ve got a couple of his. We’ve got Peter Blake, who’s a bit of a mate, he’s a friend of ours and we’ve got several of his. So it’s quite a different mix, you know, you can imagine a Blake next to a Frink looks really quite different, but both beautiful in their own way, you know. Frink, her pencil and then this lovely watercolour washes that she puts across and then Peter with his very precise detailed tiny, tiny little thing. Great. I mean we’re not really art collectors but we just, you know, have been able to buy what we like. And it’s not enough, I’d love to, I’d love to have a Goggle Head and I’d love to have a Running Man, but I’m afraid it’s out of our price bracket.

What part if any does the garden, or do the gardens play in your lives?

David is absolutely hopeless in a garden. He comes from Marseille and he’s always had apartments. I mean his family lived in a big apartment, you know, lots of French people do, that’s the way – and of course you’re either in the apartment or you’re on the beach, you know, that’s the sort of life he lived, so I think for him he never grasped the idea of a sort of London garden. Ours is not big. I used to sort of you know, imagine myself as a great gardener and I think, I think gardening as a therapy is the most fabulous thing because I did used to do a lot of it, I did used to go and dig and weed and plant and cut, and it actually meant that you concentrated your mind on something and left the other stresses alone for a bit. And I did all the thing when the children were little about you Betty Jackson Page 479 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47) know, plant these seeds and watch them grow. But they’re completely uninterested also. So it’s a thing, it’s a sort of lonely task, but I don’t care about that. I mean I don’t mean lonely in a bad sense, I mean I’m alone thing. And I was much more involved than I am now. Now I, well we’ve changed gardeners and he’s rather, he’s quite a sort of brutal gardener really, everything, you know unless it grows vigorously gets oiked out really so - or trimmed or cut. I had to have a word with him because it’s quite a sort of rambling sort of garden and you know, dog roses mixed in with elder and you know, and a few lilies come up through a thing and he’s sort of pruned everything back and razed everything up in a sort of rather Italian Renaissance fashion really, and has you know, formed bushes where really they were sort of straggling orange blossom you know, and chopped it off if it looked in danger of flowering at all. So he’s sort of slightly more gentle now. Can’t wait to dig the bluebells up and you know, and things like that, so it’s quite funny. So we’re sort of in the middle of, I really have to sort of fill it up with more things. He likes patches of bare earth and we’ve just been through a bit when he’s actually dug everything up, so we need to replenish. But just generally, generally the garden works for us, you know, it was a children’s playground, it was filled with people all the time, wear and tear, horrendous wear and tear. You know, and now, I mean later years you know, I mean it still retains that, for a long time there’s just been somebody in there in the summer months when I’ve got home and you know, that’s fine and it is a sort of an extension, we eat often outside when you can and we sit often outside in the evenings and so it’s sort of an extension of the house really.

And you have this place in France as well don’t you?

Yes, which is really very nice.

Whereabouts?

In the south, near a place, just south of Aix-en-Provence, sort of almost on the coast, in between Bandol and Cassis.

And how near is that to his family?

Betty Jackson Page 480 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47)

Oh, most of his family live in Marseille, it’s about forty minutes, an hour away. So it’s a good location really. Far enough away so that we don’t see them every day, but near enough so that we can be involved if we need to be.

And what’s the place like?

It’s an old farmhouse. We, it’s, very happily, we have a vineyard as well which is lovely. So we got a, got some wine which is very nice, because it’s delicious. And there’s a wonderful view of the hillside opposite, you know, village on the top of the hill sort of thing. And it’s very, very rural, very rural, small house, quite a – I mean not a big vineyard at all, quite a small vineyard, it’s really quite small but it’s absolutely lovely.

Who makes the wine?

Well, because we don’t live there all the time, there’s a, one of the domaine, one of the local domaine actually does it for us, so we’ve sort of ceded that bit to them and they look after it. They plant, they harvest, they look after it and for allowing them to do that we get a certain number of bottles a year.

What sort of wine, what sort of grape?

Well, it’s Bandol which is – and it’s called Domaine d’Olivette, which is, and you know they make all – I mean in my naivety of course I always thought white grapes did white wine and red did red, but of course it’s not the case. You have to have a mixture of three grapes in order to produce a superior quality and we magically have those three grapes in our vineyard and so there’s white, red and rose that’s produced and we can choose whichever we want. It’s quite a lot, it depends how many people come and stay with us in the summer whether we get through it all, but we personally get a yield of two hundred and fifty bottles, three hundred a year, so you know, they must get a lot more than that.

And how often d’you go there, how much time d’you spend there?

Betty Jackson Page 481 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47)

We used to sort of gear it around school holidays, but now of course we don’t need to do that, so we go for weekends and we go for most of the summer and whenever we can really.

What happens to the place when you’re not there? Apart from the vineyard.

We lock the shutters and walk away.

So you don’t sort of ever, well rent it out or have anybody…?

We do, yes we do sometimes, yeah, we do. I’m loath to say that publicly though.

[both laughing]

And, I mean going back to fashion and your life in fashion, you’ve talked about you know, a bad collection or a mistake or a problem in a collection takes ages to live down and vice versa – well not vice versa, a successful collection takes a while to bear fruit. So I mean, can you say something about the pressure of building up to a collection and you know, thoughts about whether it’s going to be good or not good or how it’ll be received, all that sort of thing?

I don’t think you think about how it’s going to be received, I think that’s the last thing on your mind because it’s too restrictive. If you worry about what people are gonna think about you, I think it’s very destructive rather than constructive. So we jump off a cliff each season. We start afresh, but saying you start afresh, of course you start with what’s gone before so I don’t think we start afresh on shape and colour and fabric, because you know, there are certain things that maybe you haven’t developed enough that you wish to take further. There’s certain things that people have actually said, namely this is hideous, and you know that it really isn’t but you haven’t done it well enough or you haven’t explained it or there’s another way of doing it. And there’s things that you know in your heart that are absolutely what you should be doing. And so it’s a mixture of all of that. Honestly, I think we go on gut reaction a lot. There’s a period when we look at a lot of colour, we look at a lot of fabrics, we look at – and you go with an open mind. And then Betty Jackson Page 482 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47) the influences that come through, from anywhere really. We all trotted off to see Matisse, we all trotted off to see the Turner at the Tate, you know, there’s various films that come out. You know, and again it’s that sort of mix that makes it modern, makes it of next season, makes it next year, makes it new, makes it a different take on something. You know, by adding together all of these elements and mixing it in the way that you want to do, but generally we don’t look at other designers, we look at fabric collections and we look at fine arts exhibitions and we look at you know, people that inspire us I suppose. And generally, and then you put together, you know on a big table all the colours that you love and then put them together. And it’s actually, and what makes your heart beat faster. That’s then what goes with, goes. So you don’t sort of think, ah, blue’s been great, let’s you know, or I think somebody’s gonna you know, or I think the press are gonna think blue. It’s sort of haphazard, that sort of thing. It sort of just happens. There’s been a lot of fuss about yellow at the moment and we had yellow and it was our biggest seller in the winter and I don’t know why, I can’t tell you why, but it just feels, you know yellow feels magnificent really.

What about the, I mean do you not get anxious you know, about how something will go down or how it’ll be seen?

Not till much later on I think. You’ve got to allow yourself freedom. If you’re – you know, there’s so many things to worry about for goodness’ sake, so it doesn’t help concentration if you are worried about - really what happens is in my head I talk about it with Molly and Nicole and my assistants who work with me on this and we generally, it’s sort of almost like a chat we have you know, about what you love and what you’ve seen and you know, where you want to go and you know, how beautiful something is or how hideous something else is and it sort of emerges, it sort of develops from that. We always start with colour, we always put – but it happens at the same time that you’re seeing all of these fabric collections, so in a way you’re allowing as much information as possible to come in and then it sort of assembles itself in your head and in your heart I think too, to become something that you then can put down on paper. And that’s the only way I can describe it really. And the process is, happens not by me alone, it’s by an interaction of several people that we actually arrive at the choice of colour palette, at then the choice of Betty Jackson Page 483 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47) fabrics, at then the choice of pattern that goes on fabrics and everything sort of points to what we’ve all been thinking about, you know, and what is exciting to us.

And who are Molly and the others?

Molly and Nicole are the, my design assistants.

And what are they like?

Oh they’re lovely. They’re sort of exciting, young. Great. They’ve got a lot of style themselves, they’ve got opinions, they’re certainly not shrinking violets, you know, we don’t agree on everything, that’s great. And then the sales team comes later, we worry about that, you know, later, after – when you’ve, it’s very important that you get your initial… I mean now we’re working on next spring and I can actually see, I know exactly what it’s gonna look like, I know what the show is gonna feel like, I know what it’s gonna look like in the showroom, but it’s actually all inside my head and some of it isn’t inside my head, a lot of it is in Molly’s head and some of it is in Nicole’s head. But you know, then it’s a communication thing isn’t it?

So what actually is the distribution of labour as it were between you and them, how – apart from the discussions that you have – what else do they do or is that it, I mean…?

No, no, we all draw independently. I mean they do do the fundamentals of the sort of admin bit of actually ordering and e-mailing people backwards and forwards and making sure that we’ve got what we ordered or the colour is being dyed correctly and they approve all that sort of stuff really. And then, we have design meetings, design consultations where you know, everybody goes off and has their own thoughts and then we all get together and throw them all on the table and say, well I think this and then we say, oh I like, you’ve done that better than me, I like that one better or you know, and then it gets put to you know, a working drawing down and pattern being made for it, a toile being done, final garment.

[End of Tape 24 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 484 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side A (part 47)

Betty Jackson Page 485 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48)

Tape 24 Side B [part 48]

And we’ve talked about David’s role over the years in managing the finances and so on, what about the artistic side of sort of staying ahead, adapting, changing, so as to still be successful after so many years?

Well I think that’s entirely the role of the design team, we take that responsibility on. It’s entirely us.

But how consciously do you sort of say, well you know, this is not the eighties any more, this is the nineties and in the nineties people…

Because you’re living it. You’re living it. I mean you know, there’s no real mystery. If you’re respons… no designer should work in a bubble, no designer should work in a vacuum, you know you are merely a reflection of what’s going on socially and economically in the world that you’re living in, you know. I mean that’s why everybody is sort of an expression of their life in a way, or an ideal life. That’s why, you know, American designers are very different from French designers who are very different from Japanese designers who you know, you can see the difference quite clearly in their work I think. So we’re not in the eighties, you know, we are in the twenty-first century. And I’m not so much interested in the past really, I mean as these tapes will prove, I’ve forgotten most [laughs] of it, because there’s always the next one. You know, there’s always something else to do. We’ve recently had to do a bit of a, you know – what do you call it – a package for somebody we’re doing a project with and the girls sort of pulled off images from you know, shows and collections going back ten years and actually there’s some really lovely things that you know, you’re still quite proud of doing and thinking about it when we did them, it was really quite innovative and new. But you know, once you’ve done something, once you’ve actually done it and it’s been right and you’ve loved it, time to move on, time to go on and have another idea, time to let something else, you know, turn a light bulb on in your head, time to be – otherwise you get bored. As a designer, you get bored. You can very easily become frustrated.

Betty Jackson Page 486 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48)

What I’m trying to get at is how it is and why it is that you’re still in business all these x years later and others aren’t. Are you lucky, are you just better at second guessing or guessing, or keeping in the flow of change or what?

It must be a combination of everything. It must be luck, it must be David’s good financial management, combined with my brilliance obviously [laughs], I don’t know. It’s a combination of everything. Other people being supportive, you know. Of course a lot of it is luck, of course. And we’re, you know, in the scheme of things, you know we are not successful at all. I mean you know, you can look at many of our peer group who are far more successful financially than we are. So you know, what have we achieved, not very much so far really.

But how much is that to do with the scale, which we’ve already talked about, on which you operate?

Yes, obviously quite a lot and yeah, obviously, quite right. It’s what we decided. But nevertheless, you know, we could be – I think we have a bigger reputation than we do bank balance.

Does that matter?

Not a bit. You know, I think I feel privileged to have been able to do what I’ve wanted to do for so long really. I would hate not to be able to do that.

Tell me about these premises where we’ve been recording and where your work is.

It’s a small building in Shepherds Bush. We graduated, I think I said, from the basement of a friend to then the top of Oxford Street and then bought a building in central London – which we still have in fact, which is let to a video company, a film company – and we looked to move out of the West End, because the West End got really quite sleazy at one point. I think it’s much better now. And we needed more space, and so we found this little building, which is tucked away, invisible from the street, which is great and it sort of serves us quite well. We are thinking in the next couple of years whether or not we should Betty Jackson Page 487 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48) move somewhere bigger. But at the moment it’s divided, it’s on two floors. Office and the production department and accounts are downstairs and design studio takes up most of the first floor. And the nicest thing is that in the design studio we’ve got natural light and it’s very airy and – a very simple building really, but yeah, we moved in here about eight years ago and it’s been great.

How did you find it?

Oh that’s David really, he does all of this. He came to see, he went to do the thing and looked at a few and you know, and then sort of, does a shortlist really and then I come and see the shortlist.

And how does it feel employing Wendy Dagworthy after she employed you those times?

It doesn’t feel as if I do. It feels honestly as if she’s doing us a favour, coming in. I never think about that at all. You know, we’re privileged I think, to know each other. You know, we’ve done a lot, our careers have sort of been interlinked for quite a long time and she does such a great job when she comes in and it is somebody that I have absolute total trust in and you know, funnily enough, she can sometimes form a bridge between myself and the other design assistants and give you know, a completely impartial balanced view coming from another place, really. So it’s, I never ever think, because we don’t, I mean she does us a favour and it’s a freelance contract and she comes in as a consultant so I never think that, that she does another job, she is somebody else, you know so I never think that she works. She comes in and we have a great day when she comes in. It’s very good fun.

What do you do apart from talk, chat?

She looks at fabrics and – well she comes several times to the collection, she comes and looks at the initial fabric and colour choice, she comes and you know, and moves them around a bit or you know, if we’re stuck on something she will you know, say what she thinks because she comes in sort of cold to it. And she comes in then when we’ve done the knitwear, because we have to do the knitwear earlier on in the season, she then comes Betty Jackson Page 488 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48) in when we’re talking about shape and she comes in maybe two or three times during you know, the collection build-up really, and then she’ll come in towards the end. So, makes several trips in through a collection.

D’you go out to lunch?

We have lunch sitting round my desk.

How d’you think you have changed over the years that we’ve talked about here?

Personally or professionally?

Either or both.

Well I’m obviously much older than I was. I don’t think my enthusiasm has wavered, I mean it obviously does when you know, grim things happen but – and I don’t think my optimism’s changed. I think, I think I’m maybe less bloody-minded than I was. I’m less selfish maybe. That’s a difficult question really, I don’t know whether – it doesn’t feel as if we do anything differently than the beginning. I still want people to be here because they want to, rather than out of an obligation. I still want to do things because I want to, rather than out of an obligation. But still, it’s still an enormous thrill. It’s still the thing that moves my world. The whole process of you know, starting off with a tiny piece of colour and then actually it becomes something that somebody’s wearing. It’s a fabulous thing to be able to do.

You talked about your reactions when you first were designing, seeing somebody wearing your clothes – d’you still have that?

Yeah, yeah, it’s still a, you know, it takes you by surprise or – yes, it’s still a thrill. It’s still a thrill. It happens more regularly now, I’m happy to say.

And how much, if at all, have your children been involved with your work or you know, also your balancing the work with the children as they got older? Betty Jackson Page 489 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48)

They’ve always known what I do because they’ve always come to see. We’ve always, wherever they could, made sure they come to a show, even when they were very little. And when they were very little the reason was so that they would know why mummy wasn’t at home, was working, and I don’t know whether they would say that it had interfered. I mean they both would say I’m a hopeless mother which you know, I’m sure everybody is really, I think it’s one of the most difficult things to do. We’ve never, we’ve never, ever, ever assumed that they would be involved here at all. In fact we’ve rather assumed the opposite. It was never on the cards for either of them. I think largely because I do think it’s hard, it’s very time consuming. I’ve spent a lot of hours working, I’ve spent much of my time involved in doing work related things rather than domestic things. And so, we were always very good though about weekends and you know, and spending time with them at weekends. We were always completely you know, sacred about that sort of thing. And holidays were their time. But I think generally, you know now they’re slightly older – I mean Pascale works in the shop sometimes at weekends, which I don’t know whether is a good thing or a bad thing, she sometimes has to listen to good and bad comments about her mother. [laughs] But you know, that’s fine, she’s sort of got over the initial shock when somebody did come in and complained bitterly about me, resisted punching them I think. But anyway, she’s a very strong person in her own right, but you know, isn’t, has done art for a long time but you know, who very, I mean I’d been involved with student designers for a long time so you do learn to recognise the signs and you know, she’s definitely not a designer, she’s definitely not a clothes designer and never was, but she has you know, other things that she likes doing best and I think to impose what we have done, what we have chosen to do on them, rather a rough deal really. Oliver sort of dabbles in it, you know, goes out with very glamorous people and goes to all the parties and so does that bit. And they’re both, they’re both incredibly generous when it comes to difficult moments in my cycle, you know, show time and… they help, they are very supportive now I think. They are enormously respectful as well and parts of them, you know, love it. But I am sure they would also say that part of them hated it. You know, when, I mean Pascale definitely will say that I was never ever there at important moments in her school life and you know, I was never, I was always away on some stupid knitwear trip or fabric trip when you know, she was doing something important in her life. But they’ve survived, they’re alright. Betty Jackson Page 490 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48)

How has that affected your relationship, that absence?

Oh, I think, I hope it’s sort of made them realise that I think you live your life on your own really, you must do what stirs you really. I think, I think it is a very selfish thing that I do, but unless you do it completely, what’s the point in doing it. So, I think they’ve always understood that and I think if they can find the same thing – I think it must be a terrible thing to spend your life doing something that you don’t love. I think an awful lot of people have to do this. But I mean she’s at an art school now and I went down to see the end of term show last week and just, you know that feeling that you know, she’s treading her own path, she’s doing what she wants to do – good or bad, you know, we’re way beyond, we’re way before whether anybody’s going to achieve anything in this field or not, who knows, you know. I think that you spend a long time doing it afterwards, so take your time before you decide what it is you want to do really.

And what aspect of art is she interested in?

Fine art. She does glorious big paintings. She has a lovely colour sense actually, but she does huge big paintings. Very funny. Some really rather nice, but some really rather bad. [laughs] I think that’s always the case with you know, she’s learning and developing and it is rather wonderful to see you know, now the influence that other people are having on her and it’s just great, it’s wonderful to watch, wonderful to watch.

And Oliver?

And Oliver is, well he’s away round his world trip at the moment. I think he’s in Bali at the moment, not sure because I’m a hopeless mother and don’t have his itinerary in my head, but he is coming back at the end of July and then he’s going to King’s College in September to do French and film. He’s passionate about film and television and everything to do with that. He’s done a bit of work with friends of ours who are in the television business and he absolutely loves it. Wants to be an actor, but I don’t know whether that will happen or not. He’s very sociable and rather nice to take out, you know when David’s not there to be an escort. It’s, I mean over the last year he’s been to a few Betty Jackson Page 491 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48) things with me and now photographers shout his name, which is rather amusing. Anyway, so he, yeah he – I don’t know, I haven’t seen him for a while, so he’s been away for quite some time, so I’ll see him in the summer and I hope he’s… You know, it’s all very much in the air, he’s only eighteen and how d’you know. I didn’t know what I wanted to do at eighteen. Pascale is just twenty and I didn’t know what I wanted to do at twenty. You know, I was at the same stage as she was. All I knew, like she knows, she’s having a wonderful time and I was too when I was twenty. But I didn’t think I’d be sitting here now.

Here, as in?

As in you know, twenty-four years of doing this, really. You know, signing a deal with Debenhams, going on to you know, do the rest of it, really. So it’s very odd, what you end up doing isn’t it?

And you had such a very difficult time having the children, I mean physically, do you…

I don’t hold it against them [laughs] if that’s what you mean.

How much, where did the – if I can put it like that – the motivation come from to go through all that and…

Well it was accidental, I wasn’t supposed to get pregnant really, I never thought I would. So it was accidental and then when accidents happen, or fate takes a hand, you must run with it I think. So, you never know what’s going to happen next, do you? I still feel that. You know, you must approach each day, each week as a different one. You know, we’ve lived this moment, but you don’t know what’s going to happen in half an hour. You know, none of us do, it’s rather fantastic that you don’t. So you can plan for what might or what may happen and you can be cautious in your – but actually, you just don’t know.

But I mean, you could have, well to put it bluntly, you could have terminated…

No, no, no, I could never have done that. Betty Jackson Page 492 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48)

Why?

Could never have done that.

Morally?

What just because of a bit of discomfort on my part?

Or because it wasn’t in the plans or whatever?

No, no, no. No, no, no, no. You’re talking about a life here. No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, that would never have, that never occurred. No, no, it never occurred. I mean unless there had been any danger or any risk to them, you know. But I was, you know when it actually happened I was very carefully monitored by some of the best people in the country, so you know, I was looked after. In any of these situations, you never really do it alone. You know, the accident was a moment, a horrendous moment, but we didn’t get through it alone. You know, there was an awful lot of support available. I don’t do this on my own, you know, it’s a small team but I don’t do it on my own. It’s certain things you have to separate that you must decide on your own and you must keep safe your own personality and your own thought process, you must guard that from infiltration I think, but in any other aspect of your life, you know, there’s help or there’s advice or there’s support.

But it’s also a huge commitment to say well, I’m going to bring first one and then another life in the world and those people will be with me…

Well that’s a shock. I think that you don’t, I think that you don’t ever associate you know, the bump in your tummy with actually it being a real living person next to you. I do remember the shock that that was. I mean I had no idea what to do with this little thing that arrived, you know, that was just tinier than anything I’d ever seen before and I had absolutely no idea. I had absolutely no idea. So you know, you just sort of go on and it’s like, it’s sort of like anything, you know, what are you gonna cook for dinner? Mm well, Betty Jackson Page 493 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48) might do this, but I’ve never done that before. Well okay, well let’s have a go. You know, what’s the worst that can happen if you, you know, whatever happens you love them, whatever happens you protect them, whatever happens you try and show them right or wrong. What else can you do, you know. I think I’ve been quite lucky with my children really, that they’re not you know, well they’re rather nice people I think. So that’s lucky I think.

So can you say a little bit more about their growing up years and…

Well I think, I mean you know, the first thing to think about is actually we were very lucky with the domestic help that we did have. You know we had, you hear horrendous stories about child minders and nannies and things and we had somebody who was with us for twelve years, you know until they said, look, it’s embarrassing having a nanny now. [laughs] But she’s a friend of the family, my children are godchildren to her children. I mean she was with us through good or bad and actually was brilliant and she was, you know a very creative person, rather mad, you know, didn’t necessarily run the home as efficiently as it should have been run, but so what, they got love and affection and you know, glitter paint all over the house at Christmas and you know, and making costumes for fancy dress parties throughout the year and balloons all the way through the year. You know, just good fun they had and I think that that was very lucky. Apart from that, we, David and I, I think worked as a partnership in everything that we did. You know, we ran the business together, we also ran our domestic life together, it was sort of seamless, you know, wherever we were. We never really brought the children into the office, except when they were little and I you know, then they were in a basket, but that was very, very early on. And they, it was quite clear to them that they had a life that was very important, that didn’t necessarily rely on what mum and dad were doing. They knew what we did and they dabbled and you know, they came in and out of it. But you know, like anybody with a young family, we did a lot of entertaining at home, a lot of our friends had children their age. You know, it was a full life, really. I can’t think of any other way, you know, running our own business people had to be considerate of us and so I suppose in a way nobody shouted at me or shook a P45 at me if I was half an hour late because something had happened at home, but I don’t think I abused that. I mean I honestly think that work Betty Jackson Page 494 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48) always took priority for me. In fact I think both children would say that, if you asked them the question, that they knew that they were always second.

Did you ever feel any conflict over that?

Oh, huge guilt, the whole time, of course. Of course. And you know, you’re well aware that you’re doing everything so badly too. But, nothing you can do about that really, except try and do better and make sure your priorities remain the right ones. And also, you know often, stand back and try and have a balanced view. But it was difficult, it was difficult because also I had my two very small children when nobody, it was very unfashionable to have [laughing] small children. You know, they really weren’t the accessory that one needed, you know, it was something that people really didn’t want to know about at that time. Yeah, end of the eighties was really not the best time. Bit later on, people started to have kids and everybody then said, oh, it’s fabulous, there’s a quality of life here and all of that stuff. But that was much later really.

And how’s their relationship with each other?

Fabulous. They’re very close, there’s only about fourteen months between them and I think that they, well they would kill each other of course as well, but they’re very close.

And what d’you do, I mean to relax or to you know, I know that you socialise and so forth – d’you have any what they call hobbies or you know, this sort of thing to unwind.

Stamp collecting. I’m a secret stamp collector. No, I’m afraid not. I haven’t got anything that I do other – I love live performance, we go to a lot of concerts. I love film, you know I love anything like that. I love eating and drinking, we do quite a lot of that. But you know, no there isn’t anything – I mean you know, unwinding is actually often going to France for a few days because it’s a very small village, nobody knows what I do, so that’s great. So I do a lot of reading.

What sort of things?

Betty Jackson Page 495 C1046/10 Tape 24 Side B (part 48)

Well at the moment I’m reading that fab, Matisse’s biography which is fascinating. But you know, rubbish as well. I read rubbish as well as – Alan Hollingshurst I’ve just read, you know, Booker prize winner. But I do tend to like women authors. I read Anita Brookner but she has got very sad of late. And yeah, quite a few. I go through periods when I read a lot of novels and then I need fact, so I read fact and – I’d rather like to be able to go back and read all the books that I haven’t read. You know, need a bit of a list, start from scratch again.

[End of Tape 24 Side B]

Betty Jackson Page 496 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

Tape 25 Side A [part 49]

This is Eva Simmons interviewing Betty Jackson on Monday, the twenty-seventh of June 2005. We’re starting tape twenty-five and this is really a session going back over various points from earlier on in the interview and just kind of, hopefully, wrapping up and there are a number of points that have been made by someone in the department at the British Library, things that they would like me to ask you, one of which is about your accent, which as was pointed out is neither Yorkshire nor Lancashire. [laughs]

Oh, but it is. If you, I mean I think if you go back and listen to the tapes, it’s quite clear the intonation’s very definitely northern.

I can’t hear it – which one is it?

Well it should be Lancashire, but yeah, but I mean I’m a mixture of both so maybe a little bit – but it’s definitely northern. The way I say ‘r’s and stair, I don’t say stairs, I say stairs, so you pronounce the ‘r’. Yeah, lots of people will sort of say, you don’t come from London do you, so it’s a sort of a mix I think.

Did you ever have a more pronounced northern accent?

Yes, probably. When I lived in the north, but I’ve lived in the south for quite a long time now and it’s sort of gradually, you know, I think it’s probably just changed. It’s quite difficult to hold on to an accent, I think. Well it’s obviously been – if I ever had one – it’s obviously been very difficult to hold on to mine. I don’t know quite why it is, I suppose really just, you know, just hearing other people speak. If I’d gone to live in Ireland I’m sure I’d be speaking with an Irish accent and if I’d ended up in Scotland the same, really.

Did you ever consciously try to modify your accent at all?

No, no, no. It sort of happened over the years.

Betty Jackson Page 497 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

And, another point, we talked early on in the interview about your grandfather being blinded and I’ve been asked to ask you, you never mentioned the Welfare State at that time, was there any sort of help for the family at all that you know of?

I can’t think that there was, but I actually can’t tell you the year that it happened, because I never knew him, he was dead before I was born. So I can’t think that there was, or, I mean there definitely wasn’t for anybody, I mean I suppose they were quite well off up until that point so then it was just a question of you know, going through the monies that they’d you know, that they had.

And also, what d’you think about the Welfare State in general? I think you probably covered that indirectly over the course of the interview, but perhaps maybe…

It’s a marvellous thing isn’t it? [laughs] It’s a great thing, it’s a marvellous thing, it’s fantastic. It was a man of vision that did this, it’s a marvellous thing. Helped millions and millions of people. The abuses now are quite overwhelming as well, but that happens in everything I think and that’s quite sad, but generally as a concept and a vision I think it’s brilliant.

Abuse by whom?

By people, by people who think that they can use a what is essentially a sort of helpful system into turning it to their own use I think. But that’s sort of with anything really, abuse of any sort is upsetting.

You mean welfare recipients?

Mm.

And, going back to your grandmother. You talked, you mentioned on a number of occasions sort of tensions within the family – I’m talking about your paternal grandmother – between her and your mother and at one point you said that there was a divisiveness. Can you give any examples of you know, that happening? Betty Jackson Page 498 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

Well, there was always, I suppose it was an atmosphere that I was picking up on as a small child. I think children do react to atmospheres, I mean and I knew early on that you know, she was, my grandmother was a difficult woman. But she was also you know, always generous with us as grandchildren, well especially with my sister, so you know I just think that it’s quite a sort of normal thing, I don’t think it was exceptional. My mother had come from quite a long way away, you know she wasn’t a local person. She was you know, a very glamorous, fun loving, beautiful woman, so probably regarded with suspicion by somebody who had had this big tragedy with her own husband, had been fiercely independent and you know, brought this only son up no matter what, for his heart to be stolen by this, you know, I think it’s completely normal. But, and in a small community there was probably you know, quite a lot of store set on family, get-togethers, family occasions, family situations and I think that she made things really quite difficult for my mother, you know for quite a long time really.

In what way?

I’ve no idea. You know, it’s just a feeling that you have, certain family situations that my mother would organise parties and my grandmother would put a sort of spanner in the works, that sort of thing. Or she would be difficult or she would you know, decide to be you know, tricky on the day, just general things, but I don’t really think I should go into any more detail than that, because I don’t really think it’s relevant at all to this life story, so I don’t understand where the question is coming from. I think it was absolutely normal for any sort of small town family life to have certain pressures on them, you know, especially in the circumstances. In those days it was like my father had married an American or a French person or you know, she was from another county which was extraordinary, you didn’t do it. You know, you married people close to home, people didn’t travel that much.

How important was that rivalry between Yorkshire and Lancashire then?

Oh it was a joke, I mean it was treated as a sort of family – it was something to talk about, it was something to make fun of, it was something to you know, to hinge a cricket match Betty Jackson Page 499 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49) around, it was something to you know, have after dinner gossip about really, but nothing more than that.

And, the relationship between you and your grandmother, I mean you talked about that quite a bit – d’you remember, did she ever you know, try to influence your development, your interests or…

Not at all, no, no, no. Not at all.

You talked very briefly about your father’s business – d’you know any more about how he managed to set it up and what it involved? You talked very little about it in fact. The shoe business.

Yes. It’s because I don’t really know. It’s honestly because I don’t really know. He ran this small manufacturing unit and he worked very hard and I have absolutely no idea other than that. It’s silly really, but I don’t.

You didn’t, I mean your parents didn’t talk about it in front of you or mention it?

No. I mean… not, I mean how do you mean talk about it?

About the business. You know, discuss it.

No, they certainly didn’t do that in front of us. No, absolutely not. No, absolutely not. I mean it was, he was a very private man, he was very, you know, he wouldn’t, certainly wouldn’t, there were no – this is quite a long time ago as well, if you remember. [laughs] I’m very, very old. But you know, forty-five, fifty years ago, astounding as this may seem, people didn’t.

You talked about, just one more question about your grandmother. You said that she told magical stories and I seem to remember you mentioned cats and witches. D’you know any more about sort of the origin, were they stories that she made up or that…

Betty Jackson Page 500 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

I don’t know that either. I mean there used to be a lot of stories about the Pendle Witches and you know we lived quite close of course, to them and I’m sure there were lots of sort of folklore stuff, you know, to do with old Lancashire tales and things. And people were very, very superstitious I think in those days. So I suppose it came from that, I don’t know whether they were passed on by her parents or whatever, but you know, I do remember that – well she’d trained as a nurse, my grandmother, which I think I’ve already mentioned, but people still actually cured things or alleviated pain by natural things, by herbs and by you know, you didn’t take a pill, you know you bathed whatever part of your body in something that was you know, cut up and steeped in water, you know what I mean. And it was sort of a, there was a whole sort of – and I suppose that you know, it wasn’t particularly rural you know, it was a tiny little village and it was, as I said, there was more land either side of us so it was really quite bleak I suppose and I suppose these sort of things, I don’t know, they became magical to me. Maybe it was just you know, sat by her fire on a dark winter’s night and I sort of remember it as being magical. She also had feather beds which we didn’t have, but they were fabulous to lie in too. [laughs]

And you, this sort of natural way of treating things, did that go on in your own family?

To a certain extent, I mean I remember there was something called knitbone which I can’t, I don’t know what the herb was, but you know if you bruised yourself or fell over, you bathed the, you know, the affected joint or toe or ankle or whatever it was in this thing and it relieved pain. There wasn’t anything magical about it, it’s probably been doing it for years and probably still does, but people maybe don’t like to go that route so much now. Maybe there’ll be a revival of it sometime, I don’t know. But, you know, it’s just sort of custom. And also, I mean the doctor was a family friend, but you certainly didn’t call the doctor every time, though we were a fairly sturdy family, I don’t think we were ill very often, d’you know what I mean? Because you weren’t, you know. But, something to do with central heating, I’m sure. But you didn’t complain really, you know, there wasn’t a sort of, there was a sort of you know, a sturdiness and a stoic-ness about facing life. The weather was quite hard, I mean it was, we were always snowed up in the winter, always. You know, there was almost the most rain throughout the year happened in this particular village, you know when the sun shone it was spectacular really, I mean it was… So you know, weather elements were really quite harsh I suppose, so one dealt with it. Betty Jackson Page 501 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

And who bathed your bruised…

My mother of course. [laughs]

So, can you remember any other sort of…

Potions. No, no I can’t. I mean I really can’t. There was, you know, things like sherry and raw egg, which I remember I had to have after my operation when I was very little in order to build me up. Ugh, it was hideous. But we had things like, I think I’ve mentioned this before, we had things like syrup of figs and you know, and cod liver oil, you know on a spoon, but you know, we had it from when we were small children. You lined up and took your ridiculous spoonful, really. So, no I don’t remember anything else.

You mentioned an aunt Fanny.

Mm.

I think she cleaned, did she?

Cleaned, yeah.

What was that relationship like, between her and your grandmother?

I don’t know. She wasn’t a relative. We called her aunt in a familiar way. I’ve absolutely no idea, she – you know, I don’t know whether you make judgements as a child about you know, who are all these people. I mean you would, they were, you know they were part of my world, but you know, they weren’t really, they were just sort of, they peopled my world but that was it. You know, she was often there, but you know, apart from that…

Can you remember any of the food that you had when you visited your grandmother?

Erm, any of the food. What d’you mean? Betty Jackson Page 502 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

What you ate, what she served, what she prepared because you stayed with her.

Help!

Well was it very traditional, was it…

Oh I’m sure it was quite traditional. I mean I can remember the first time I had pasta, that was much later on. And rice, you know, it was very sort of meat and vegetables and Lancashire hotpots and stews and that sort of thing I suppose. Chicken was for special occasions because it was more expensive.

Did she cook these dishes?

Yeah, herself. Or maybe aunt Fanny did, I think aunt Fanny only cleaned, I think my grandmother cooked. I didn’t take any notice, you know. It’s hideous I know, but I didn’t.

You mentioned some IQ games that you played when you were there.

Mm.

And how did you, did you, how did you feel about those – did you like them, dislike them?

Yeah, yeah. I mean it was how one sort of entertained I suppose.

Was there, did you feel in your family pressure or encouragement or influence or whatever to be – I remember you saying that you know, your best friend went to a secondary modern whereas you went to the grammar school. Were there pressures on you or influence or what, you know to make you…

Never.

Clever or… Betty Jackson Page 503 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

No, never. It sort of just happened. Well, not that it did happen you know, but no, no, no it was, no I didn’t have any special tutoring or anything, but I think my parents were fairly intelligent, I think my grandmother was fairly intelligent and I think the onus was you know, as a family, general knowledge was important, knowledge was treated with respect and you know, and one was expected to know about all sorts of things, you know, just as a sort of matter of course really. We, you know, spelling was crucially important to everybody and times tables and stuff like that. You know, it was just part of life really. And [laughs] we didn’t sit down and do, you know, difficult sums, you know, after supper or anything like that, but it was just part of you know, one’s existence really. My mother was always really interested in history, there was a daily newspaper every day. You know, even before television was a twenty-four hour thing, but you know, the news was important, we were expected to express our opinions, we were expected to have a view. But it wasn’t anything about coaching or – there was no pressure at all, academically, no pressure at all I would say.

Can you ever remember anyone, either your parents or your grandmother or anyone expressing any sort of a view at all about what you were likely to do,

No.

…as you got older?

No. No. Absolutely not.

Can you remember thinking yourself about – I mean I’m talking about in your childhood – what you might do as you got older?

No, it was never really, it was never really – I mean the only thing that was expected was some sort of further education. You know, that was expected, but it wasn’t, I mean it wasn’t, whether it was a college or a university, art college had not come into the field really by then, so that was a bit of a shock I suppose, but that’s the only thing, it was expected. But I think, you know there wasn’t, the school was down the road, it had quite a Betty Jackson Page 504 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49) high standard academically, so therefore you know, you realised early on I think that – I think I’ve mentioned this before – that you know, the best way of a result, you know was to flip the switch and just do it and this I found quite easy to do. So, but nowadays of course if you have children and there’s so much pressure on them to achieve before they even get to GCSE level that I think it’s quite shocking. We didn’t have any of that pressure at all. I remember studying for my GSEs, which is what they were called then, and then going on to the sixth form and you know, but then having a year where you know, you changed uniform, you became more in control, you discussed things on paper rather than regurgitated facts, you, gradually you were encouraged to debate things, you were encouraged to – but none of this was alien to me because we’d always had discussions in the family. And so there was, there’s that sort of watershed, but there was time because you had this year before you did A levels. Now of course, they have AS levels crammed in the middle, so it’s sort of one continuous exam. So I’m not sure that they get time to, you know, you’re expected to achieve by the time you’re sixteen. There wasn’t any of that at all, at all. There wasn’t any pressure on me to – I wanted personally to do well in my exams and I think you know, my parents also liked the idea, but I honestly don’t think that they would have minded if I’d have turned out to be, you know, a complete fool or you know, exams would have been some sort of a problem, but they never were, so you know.

How were you with your own children in that regard?

Exactly the same. Which is quite difficult nowadays. You know, but all I, I mean I’ve also said this before, but I think the most important thing is actually to look for something you know, that you’re passionate about and that you can be excited about because you spend such a long part of your life, but if you’re privileged enough to be able to make that decision, you know, then it is a glorious choice to have, it really is and I didn’t know. I mean my life was a series of sort of accidental encounters and accidents, of course there was an accident, but accidental encounters that you know, led you on to then go down a path that eventually you know, you realise okay, well this is it and this is what gives me the most satisfaction. So, the children have always gone their own way, we’ve actively discouraged them to become involved in here at all. [laughs] And I think, I mean and they know, I mean the only thing that they do know is, is that we work quite hard and it’s long Betty Jackson Page 505 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49) hours and time consuming and all of that, but they also know that it does give the most satisfaction when you get it right. And that’s what you want for them really.

Who in your family d’you most take after?

Don’t know. Don’t know. Combination of both I hope.

How like your mother are you?

Physically?

In any way.

Quite hard, because my mother, I didn’t ever know her work, I mean except to run the home. So I don’t know. And it’s also quite difficult to – my father was very clever in a quiet sort of way, understated, and I know I’m not. I wish I was more [laughs] understated, ‘cos I think he was very sort of, a very considerate, gentle, not serious, but I think he considered things, he was a careful man and my mother was much more flamboyant. I think I would say that I am a combination. I sort of do this loathe and hate things. I loathe and hate big gatherings of people. I loathe and hate having to talk to – and I know that she loved that - I loathe and hate being on public display, but she always loved that. So I don’t know, I don’t know who I’m like.

Why would you like to be less flamboyant or whatever?

I think carefulness, you know, I think it’s very nice to have a sort of an immediate gut reaction, but actually now, even dealing with this very small company, you have to really be quite careful and decisions that you’ve taken that you’ve actually taken a bit more time about and are measured are always a good thing. I think it’s always a good thing to come and have a second look, if you can, you know, at decisions that you’ve made with any sort of you know, violent reaction really, whether it be pro or against.

D’you think you’re like your grandmother at all? Betty Jackson Page 506 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

Must be some of her in there somewhere. Stubbornness maybe.

And you mentioned that she had very striking, I think you said, I’m not sure if you used the word striking, but anyway you talked about her long red hair.

Mm.

How did you react to that?

That’s a difficult question, I’m sorry. How did I react to her hair?

In other words did you think it was beautiful, did you think it was strange, did you think it was…?

I think most women her age had long hair. You know, I think that they braided it and they wore it in chignons or you know, or knots or, I think it was the norm. Can’t remember whether there was a hair – I think people came, I can’t remember whether there was even a hairdresser, but she was probably the sort of person who would have thought that completely frivolous to go to a hairdresser and I think she braided her hair in the same way for the last forty years of her life, probably.

Did you ever see it loose?

Oh yes, of course, yes.

What did that look like?

Long and wavy and, I mean it completely changes the way somebody looks if they’ve always you know, got a severe, scraped back, tight knot at the back of it and then suddenly they let it out and it’s this, you know, long, curly hair. It’s quite extraordinary really, the physical difference that it makes to somebody’s appearance.

Betty Jackson Page 507 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side A (part 49)

Did it seem to change her personality in any way?

Well, the thing is that she never did it unless we were there on our own. She would never have dropped her guard at any point. You know, this was in a very intimate moment I’m talking about. You know, I mean this would be you know, a very intimate moment with my sister and myself and her.

[End of Tape 25 Side A]

Betty Jackson Page 508 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

Tape 25 Side B [part 50]

What sort of a moment?

Before our bedtime, maybe. You know, when you’re warm and soft and you know, intimate moments really, like that.

Did you feel close to her then?

I felt close to her all the time, I think. I don’t think I ever questioned closeness.

What made you feel close to her?

Sorry, I don’t understand this…

Well, in other words, was it, I don’t know, confidences or just being there or flesh and blood-ness or you know, whatever.

Well, I think I’ve probably explained it already, really. Of course it was, she was my grandmother so you know, I really can’t explain it any more than that and you know, obviously there was a warmth, obviously there’s comfortableness, obviously there’s safety. You know, I was a child of six or seven, that’s the period I’m speaking about now, so it was all of those emotions about you know, being secure, glass of hot milk before you go to bed sort of thing. Being very, very comfortable and everything being right in the world. How else can you describe it?

Can you say a bit more about your uncle who had these links with India, had a cotton estate in Bombay and so on?

Well, he was the youngest brother of my grandmother and a very, very glamorous figure, really. First of all because he was always sunburnt and you know, and wore sort of fabulous white suits and he was very sort of dashing, dapper sort of bloke and I remember we used to go, because they used to sail back to India, used to come back to England I Betty Jackson Page 509 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50) suppose holidays and to keep up with everything and they didn’t have any children themselves. I don’t think they had any children. I don’t think they had any children. That’s awful isn’t it, I actually can’t remember. But we used to go off and see them, you know, take off from wherever it was, Liverpool I suppose. Would it be Liverpool? Yeah, it might be Liverpool, yeah. So we used to sort of drive and see them off on this big liner. And they used to come with exotic gifts and you know, things that you’d never seen before. I mean I had two of the most beautiful Indian dolls, you know that you could take the saris off, and they were things that you’d never seen before at all. And so there was this sort of exotic, perfume really, around the couple. He was married to a very short, very forceful woman who was also always tanned and therefore you know, wore sort of bright red lipstick as lots of people did then, but you know, was obviously sort of, you know even though she was short, she was obviously quite glamorous. But these people were already old when I remember them, because they were my grandmother’s age, so I mean I don’t know what that was, must have been fifty-five or sixty, but he probably retired at sixty, because they then came back to live near Blackpool by the coast, which was also a very glamorous thing to do of course. And, but I have to say you know, even though one tries to make a link, he was in Bombay and I’ve never been to Bombay, I’ve only travelled round other parts of India, and I have had no real desire to go and seek any of it out, which is extraordinary I know, but you know, it’s something to do with – I can cut off, when I, I knew, I think I’ve said before that I knew that there was something beyond my life in this small, industrial town in the north and I definitely think that with my professional life, even though one tries to make this tenuous link, there are none, there are absolutely none. I don’t come from artistic parents. The fact that my father had a shoe factory is nothing to do at all with me being in the fashion industry now. Absolutely nothing to do with it at all. It’s sort of accidentally, and I’ve gone off on a tangent. And you know, however hard we try, we cannot make any link here. I come from the background I come from and it is extraordinary that this background created somebody who was so interested in other things beyond, really. So I don’t know why that is, it’s, I always feel that I was lucky to find what I found. I mean if not I might be wandering the world still searching, I don’t know.

What about your own links with India and your use of Indian fabrics and…

Betty Jackson Page 510 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

But that only came much, much later on. I mean it was only when Peter Simon asked me to do this range for Monsoon that I actually went to India at all and fell in love with the place. But I defy anybody to not do that really, because it is the most extraordinary continent I think.

Can you remember the names of these two, your grandmother’s brother and sister-in-law?

Harry and Edna Racewell, they were called. Racewell was my grandmother’s maiden name.

And you described him wearing jewellery, bracelets and…

Yes, he did. And he had, he had the same curly, red hair – I don’t know if this was ever a problem for him in the sun, but he was very, very fair skinned, so I don’t know how he coped, but he was always you know, incredibly tanned and incredibly slick and incredibly – I mean even when we used to visit them in Blackpool, you know, always perfectly turned out, you know, always beautifully dressed, you know, gold tiepin and, I suppose slightly flash, I don’t know. I think my grandmother considered him to be slightly flash when he came back and she thought he ought to tone down a bit, he was a bit…

What did you think of him?

Oh, glamorous and lovely, you know, he was, you know, gave you presents and you always went to extraordinary things, you did extraordinary things when they were around so you know, it was always a good thing.

Did extraordinary things?

Well, going to see somebody off on a big ship, you know, with streamers and hooters and goodness knows what, and going to visit their cabin on board and then being piped off the thing, you know, all visitors leave, was an extraordinary thing to do in 1956, it was a big moment and I remember the emotion of the boat leaving the port. It was extraordinary.

Betty Jackson Page 511 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

And did you actually stay with them?

No, never.

In Blackpool?

No. We visited, it wasn’t far.

And when you visited, who would go?

I think just the four of us. Sometimes my grandmother, I suppose.

Just going back for a minute to the tensions and stresses that we’ve referred to a number of times within your family. Who, from your, who would get more stressed, your mother or your father from those things?

My mother and father were quite a close unit, I think, and I think my father regretted that his mother gave my mother so much anxiety. He, as I said before, didn’t like confrontation at all, but my mother was quite a sort of spontaneous, not firey, but a spontaneous sort of person and resented, not resented, but had to deal with a lot of that sort of mother-in-law stuff. And plus, I think I’ve said before, that she came from alien territory and so you know, maybe my grandmother, anybody who had married her only son, you know, who had been with her since her husband had had this terrible accident was probably the wrong person. And I think she, you know, after my grandfather died, she lived alone and maybe resented, you know, resented other people’s good fortune, that’s the explanation I can give. But I don’t think it drove a wedge through my parents at all, because there was a duty to perform, which my mother undertook, because we were geographically placed very near my father’s mother and of course, after they first married and he was in the war and all of that, you know, there was a need for these women to carry on. But I think that my parents often, must have often gone through it together, although never in front of us. But there was very much a feeling of, you know, we are dealing with this difficult person together. Certainly my mother was never left on her own, after my father died, obviously, but that’s a different thing. But I don’t think it ever drove a wedge Betty Jackson Page 512 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50) and therefore I was not aware of tensions between the two of them occurring because of my grandmother.

So, d’you think your mother would have liked your father to take a stronger stand at all?

I can’t answer that for her, really.

Did your mother ever talk to you about this sort of situation?

No, as I said, I mean we were aware, you know, we witnessed my grandmother’s moods, we witnessed her being you know, difficult about the food at lunch, difficult about the timing, difficult about who was there, difficult about who was coming later, difficult about what was to happen the next week. She was just generally a difficult woman and you know, she wasn’t somebody that you automatically sort of had a great time with, but then again I do remember her dancing and singing by the piano, you know, I can remember moments like that so you know, my take on the whole thing is from my point of view and really that’s all I can say. I was aware that you know, they’d sort of sigh and say, ‘Oh, is she coming to lunch?’, ‘Yes’, ‘Okay, right’. And you know, it was almost like gird your loins sort of stuff, but I think that they did it together.

Did you feel that she was difficult when your parents weren’t there?

When my parents weren’t there?

When you stayed with her for example, and your parents weren’t around?

No, I can’t say I did. She never, if you’re going to ask did she ever talk about my mother or anything to us, no, I can’t remember anything.

What I mean is, your sense of her being difficult was in the presence of your parents particularly, not when you were on your own with her or with your sister?

Betty Jackson Page 513 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

And also, you know, the community, you know. People spoke of Emma Jackson, ooh, you know, they were a bit frightened of her, you know, she was a fairly strong personality who had, you know, and everybody knew who she was and you know, she sort of gave a lot of money to the local church and you know, did good causes and all of this stuff and you know, the Jacksons were you know, quite a forceful part of the community I suppose.

D’you have anything that belonged to your grandmother or the grandfather who died at all – I mean did they pass anything on to you?

I have her wedding ring.

What’s it like?

It’s just a gold band.

What d’you…

I have my other grandma’s engagement ring too.

D’you wear them ever, have you?

I did, I used to wear them all the time, but they’re really very thin now, so I don’t wear them now. My other grandmother’s ring is a beautiful little sort of swirl setting, but it’s very, very thin and so yeah, so I don’t wear them now. I used to wear them all the time.

And what’s the engagement ring like?

That’s the little swirl setting. Diamond. But my grandmother’s ring is just, you can barely see was engraved inside, but you can barely see it now.

Engraved with what?

To Emma from Arthur. Betty Jackson Page 514 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

Can you say a little bit more about your sister and you know, how – you talked about your sister when you were young and being three or four years older than you and so on, but as you’ve got older, how much contact have you had and what’s it been like?

I think that there’s a huge bond. I don’t know why that is. She’s a very, she’s rather a wonderful person, my sister. She has huge qualities. She’s incredibly generous and she’s – and I think whatever happens we’ll always, there’s a bond. I think we used to argue a lot. I think we argue hardly at all now. We have different points of view on many, many things, but I think we respect each other’s viewpoint rather than challenge it now.

How did or does her generosity express itself?

Oh just in spirit I think. She’s a generous being, she’s a generous – you know, with her time and with advice and with suggestions and you know that if anything happened, you know, she’d sort of come. I mean she came when both my children were born and she came and took me away when you know, I was under a lot of stress earlier on after the accident. So she’s, she’s, yeah she’s a very kind person.

What sort of advice has she given you?

Well some of the best advice she gave me was when I’d first had my first child and she said, and she was waking up the whole night – and I’m absolutely hopeless, I think I’ve said this before, but I’m absolutely hopeless if I don’t sleep. I can’t, I absolutely can’t, I’m not one of these people who can just get, I’m really hopeless; I’m grumpy, I get ill, I can’t do anything if I don’t sleep. I absolutely love sleep. And Pascale was waking up every two hours for a long, long, long, long time and so you know, I was obviously getting up and feeding her and then you know, going on to the office and having – and then she would sleep during the day which was great, because – I mean this was when she was very, very tiny – and my sister said to me, tell me, if you, every night you woke up and somebody gave you a cup of tea and a hot piece of buttered toast, wouldn’t you love it and wouldn’t you waken up every night for this, because you’d just get into the habit and because it’s so delicious and you knew it was coming, you would do it. But if somebody Betty Jackson Page 515 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50) says, oh there’s water over there if you wake up, it’s there, get it. And it was just that was on offer and they’d gone away and the buttered toast had gone away and the hot cup of tea had gone away, she said you’d sort of probably get bored with just that. And so that’s what we did. And so the two, you know, the sort of three o’clock and the five o’clock times when she woke up, I gave her water and she screamed the place down. And she said, you have to hold on for you know, two days and actually that’s as long as it took and then it was absolutely fine. She’s quite bright my daughter, she cottoned on pretty quick. But it saved my sanity. I’m sure there’s lots of other brilliant advice she’s given me, but anyway that’s the bit that sticks in my mind. It’s the advice I always pass on to these poor women who are trying to be superwomen and juggle everything, ‘cos you can’t, it’s really too hard, too difficult. And you know what, you know, the child is not gonna die, the child is not gonna starve to death, which is actually what you think if you don’t feed it at that moment it’s not gonna live till the morning, but that’s absolute rubbish. So you know, it was good advice.

Was that from her own experience, did she have children herself?

She has three children so I’m sure it was.

And what sorts of things did you used to argue about?

What did we argue about? Oh, anything. We argued about politics, religion, all of that. You know, I’m talking about arguments when you’re sort of in your teens, really. Boyfriends, plays, English lessons, who was going to do their piano practice first. I don’t know, whether you liked Cliff Richard or Elvis Presley. [laughs] All of those stupid things, really.

And how are your differences now?

Oh, they’re still huge. You mean differences… oh, I mean we are very, very, very different. We look different – but actually no, we look probably more the same now we’re both getting older. She’s much smaller than me, she was always slimmer than me, which Betty Jackson Page 516 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

I’m furious about obviously, and so we are completely different, completely different in absolutely everything.

In temperament?

Oh I think yes, she’s much more measured than I am, probably. I’m getting better, but I have to remember to pause. [laughing] Learning to pause.

And, are there still big differences in your politics and religion?

Yeah, probably.

D’you, you don’t discuss them?

I think we know that there are differences and I think we accept that and yes, sometimes we do, but the best thing – you know, I think both of us want to avoid confrontation now, you know, unless you know, if either of us saw that we were doing something really stupid, of course, you know, you would say, but I think generally the bond allows us to maybe be more generous with each other and more caring of each other’s feelings. What is her path is not my path, but that’s the same with anything. There’s no reason why they should be the same. The fact that we came from you know, the same source is largely irrelevant. Her experiences have been very, very different from mine.

Just very briefly, what paths did her life take, I mean apart from the family?

She was terribly good at maths and physics at A level, which I wasn’t and that’s how opposite we were and couldn’t draw to save her life, so that was quite good too. So we had sort of opposite talents really, which was nice. And she went to Leeds and did an economics degree and went on to do hotel management and ran, in fact ran a – what do you call it – a resident’s, a students’ residential home near Liverpool after she got married, but then had her children really quite early on. And had three children, stopped working whilst they were small, but she now lives in Paris and she’s an English teacher.

Betty Jackson Page 517 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

And what’s your relationship like with her children and her husband?

Oh great.

D’you see them?

Yeah, we do. We see them at Christmas and at christenings and at other family events. Confirmations and you know, all of that.

It’s interesting that she’s in Paris and you have these…

[laughs] Yes, it’s very odd.

…French connections.

And most of her life happens in French. She speaks French with such a bad English accent, it’s really shocking. At least I make the attempt to have a French accent, but she really doesn’t. But she does speak very well.

And, how good is your French?

Oh, it’s conversational, you know. I’ve just had a weekend, we just had a weekend in France and by Sunday afternoon I was fed up of speaking French. [laughs] It’s quite tiring.

You mentioned your grandmother’s singing and dancing – what sort of things did she sing and dance to?

Oh, you know they were probably local tunes and sort of things like Albert and the Lion or you know, or I don’t know, Lancashire tunes I suppose really. Probably local ones, probably, you know there was a lot hymns, there was a lot of carol singing, you know at Christmas, there was a lot of hymn singing went on, that sort of thing. Popular songs, I suppose. Betty Jackson Page 518 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

Did she just sing on her own with piano, or how did she sing, in what…

I only ever remember it happening once. I mean she used to sing, we used to go to church and I used to sit next to her and she used to sing, depending on whether she’d had an argument with the vicar or not I think. If she had, then she used to talk through hymns and unwrap sweets very loudly to show her displeasure. [laughs] So yeah, that’s all I can remember really.

What was the dancing that she did?

Oh just a little sort of jig, I suppose. There’s a fantastic thing called the Bacup Coconutters, which is a troop of Morris dancers and they’re local and they – they’re quite sort of well-known – and they black their faces and – it’s to do with the Moors of Cornwall coming up to work in the cotton mills I suppose, and so these, they have an extraordinary outfit; they have sort of black vests and white sort of frilled skirts and little hats and blackened faces and coconuts on their knees and their elbows and in the palms of their hands and they dance at Easter time, they do – I mean it must be pagan [laughing], I can’t think of where it actually comes from. And so there was a sort of, you know, a folklorey thing that used to happen at Easter time, which got everybody quite excited because they used to sort of dance around the town with garlands and it’s a fantastic site to see. But most of, I mean I’m certain most of my grandmother’s social life was to do with her church activities. You know, sometimes the only people that she would see would be people from church and you know, that’s what everybody did then. You know, there wasn’t anything to do other than that, so you know, you’d sort of sing around the piano, you know. And I remember the tune that, the time I saw her dance was when the Coconutters, the parade was coming and she did this little sort of dance.

Did you say the ‘moors’ of Cornwall?

Yeah, they were…

What is that about? Betty Jackson Page 519 C1046/10 Tape 25 Side B (part 50)

They used to have people from the tin mines who think that there was a sort of shift of people, migrant workers who came up to work in the cotton mills.

But why were their faces blackened?

Because they were black people.

From when, from where?

Well they came from Cornwall. They had come from Africa.

D’you know what period?

Well it must have been just after the industrial revolution, so I suppose early on.

[End of Tape 25 Side B] Betty Jackson Page 520 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51)

Tape 26 Side A [part 51]

D’you know anything more about the…

The Moors, no I don’t. I mean that’s the only thing that I knew and they only ever danced around the village once a year and it was sort of quite a spectacular event and it was at Easter time. And the only thing that I knew was this sort of band of men – and there was one that used to play the accordion – and they, it was a specific tune that they played, that it didn’t have any words to it, that it was a dance and it was a dance to do with garlands and you know, and holding each other and going through garlands and extraordinary really to see you know, big, quite burly Lancashire men in white frilly skirts with you know, holding garlands of flowers.

Why d’you think that, I mean where do the skirts come from?

Dunno. I really, really don’t know, but there must be a story somewhere and we ought to look it up shouldn’t we, but I know they came, these people when the tin mining stopped in Cornwall, they migrated up because the cotton industry was booming of course and needed unskilled, well I suppose very lowly paid workers. Then, they must have all disappeared, because quite honestly there wasn’t, I never saw a black person in Bacup at all until the cricketer Everton Weekes came to be the professional at the cricket club and I think he must have been the first one I ever saw.

Did anyone ever say anything about these black people who had lived in your neighbourhood?

No, and I’m sure it, I mean it must have been from you know, at least two generations before, mustn’t it, because you know, I mean it’s a long time before isn’t it, so I’m talking about seeing them do it in the 1950s. But when did these come from, you know, the century before.

Can you remember any other sort of traditions or customs or anything associated with the area? Betty Jackson Page 521 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51)

No. I mean there was, you know, only things associated with the church really. You know, there were sort of the Whitsun walk and Easter hike and the New Year’s day toboggan race, you know, and stuff like that I suppose, so I suppose it was all to do with – I mean it must have been a period when people were breaking out, because cinema was starting, you know, breaking away from the traditional social opportunities that there had been. Cinema was starting, you know, there was a whole new sophisticated younger generation after the war, I suppose, who all required different things from life and of course were feeling very positive, obviously. You know, in the 1950s, notwithstanding you know, the rationing and the hardship that there must have been, but generally there was a youthful generation that you know, rock and roll had just started, the cinema had gone Technicolor, you know, all of that stuff happened really you know in the next ten years. So by the time I was a teenager, the Astoria Dance Hall, which my father had gone to, you know when he was a child, suddenly became a great venue for groups like The Beatles and The Troggs and Jerry and the Pacemakers and all, they all came, you know, I went and saw all of them. So there was a whole, a break with tradition if you like. I think there was a whole new generation who had different values, really.

How northern are you?

Oh I’m very northern. I’m northern through and through.

What does that mean?

What did the question mean?

[laughs] How does it feel to be northern and what does it mean to you to be very northern?

Er, well then I won’t be so flippant, really. I am, you know I am a product of the source, you know, that’s all I can say, I don’t know what it feels like to be anything else. I think, I don’t know, how can you separate what is northern to what you are, you know, I am what I am. I don’t know whether that’s due to being born in the north or having grown up in the Betty Jackson Page 522 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51) north or having met northern people, but I went up to visit a couple of weekends ago and I love – there were parts of it that I absolutely loved – I loved hearing everybody speak in those lovely Lancashire sort of tones. You know, you can tell, everybody had a different dialect from a different village, you know, you could pinpoint where people came from to within two or three miles, you know, well my father could. And there’s a sort of, you know, there is a warmth still, but I don’t know whether that’s just because I’m looking at it through rose-coloured glasses or not. So, I don’t know. I don’t know. I’ve travelled a long way since then really, I suppose. And I think you know, other people coming from the north have different experiences which form their characters, so my experiences have formed mine. Whether it’s to do with being north of Watford, I don’t know.

You said very early on something about your father you know, only putting up with or suffering your mother’s family for a day. How literally was that the case?

No, well if I gave that impression, that’s wrong. I remember very, very happy times, you know, with my father and my mother’s family. I remember – and it was simply geographical, you know that we, we went across at weekends and so therefore it was a day trip. But they came to stay with us and there was not a problem at all, so if I gave that impression previously, then that is wrong. He was, I think he always felt rather guilty that you know, that he’d sort of run off and captured my mother and put her geographically where they were, but you know, that was the situation. He certainly didn’t suffer them at all, he got on terribly well and they also liked him enormously. I think that they were, I think that they were thrilled that she’d met somebody, I think she must have been quite wild when she was young.

[break in recording]

Betty’s just persuaded the cleaner to turn the machine off, so that’s why it’s got quieter now. It’s quite late in the day and the cleaner was vacuuming. Can you say anything more at all about your maternal grandparents, about his work or whether she worked?

I don’t believe my grandmother worked. I don’t remember ever… But he was a miner, a coalminer in Yorkshire, so quite a hard life I think. And they had four children. Betty Jackson Page 523 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51)

D’you remember him mining at all?

No. I don’t remember him at all. He had emphysema and lost a whole lung at some point. I remember that, I remember him being ill, but it must have been when I was very, very young and I remember us going to see him and him being in bed at home, so he wasn’t even in hospital, so I don’t know why that was because he was gravely ill and I think that you know, they thought that he wasn’t going to live, and then he did, he pulled through. He was a very, very tall, elegant bloke, so he must have been a bit squashed down the mine. [laughs] He was very tall, yeah.

And you mentioned an aunt, in Sheffield I think.

Yeah.

Can you say anything more about any of the other members of that family?

One brother was killed in the war and that was a younger brother. There was, Kathleen was the eldest I think. Oh and then, maybe then there was Walter who was killed in the war and then my mother, Phyllis and then Jack who either – maybe I’ve got those ones wrong - but anyway Jack was another brother who also lives in Doncaster and had a wife and three sons. Yeah.

And what, if anything, d’you know about the views of your maternal grandparents and their politics or their you know…

I don’t remember ever, ever discussing at all. I know that [noise of vacuuming in background], I know that when this, I know that my sister was quite emotionally affected recently because she went to see, they came across to London and she went to see this new Billy Elliot musical and it was all about the miners’ strike of course, which was the recent miners’ strike, and it affected her rather because she thought that this was actually to do with our heritage and that of course grandpa must have been in the 1930s one and the hardship must have been extraordinary, really. And we had a conversation about it and she Betty Jackson Page 524 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51) said how little we knew about it and how we must have lived a very sheltered life, really, because we don’t have any memories of hunger or pain or suffering, or any of that, and yet it must have been going on at that time, because that’s where we came from. You know, he must have been involved in that and it must have been really very hard. Oddly enough, you know, they lived in a large house. It certainly wasn’t a sort of poky little Yorkshire mining shack, they lived in a large house, they had a huge garden with a swing in it and a vegetable garden and you know, my grandpa used to you know, do all of that as well. So you know, for us it was, you know she had a sort of big Aga cooker and you know, always went and there was the smell of you know, the leg of lamb in the cooker and bread having been made and you know, it was very, very domestic. But I don’t think that that was anything other than normal in those days, but we certainly… And I remember her once, I remember my mother telling us once about you know, the origin of Yorkshire pudding of course was you made this thing in order to, and gave it first as a first course in order to fill people’s stomachs so that they didn’t want as much meat and vegetables. But we never were aware of any hardship at all, but there must have been, because they brought up four children on a miner’s salary and I don’t know any different from that. I don’t know that there was any other money coming from my grandmother’s side of the family at all.

Can you speculate or anything at all on…

No I can’t.

… how they could live so well…

No, I can’t. I mean I suppose people did grow their own vegetables, people did do all of that, people you know, were very careful, there wasn’t as much choice around, you know, people were, they lived a different sort of life I think.

I mean, also the size of the house and the land and so on?

Well, I’ve no idea. I have no idea. I don’t even know whether they owned it or they rented it or what. I have no idea, I just remember it was this large old house with quite a bit of land in the back. Betty Jackson Page 525 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51)

You talked early on about your parents you know, being sort of backbones of the local Conservative Association, being very Conservative, were they equally, you know I mean was that a mutual thing or did either one influence the other – what d’you think?

Er, I sort of think that my father, you know, he was entrepreneurial of course, so he was Conservative and I think, it’s a bit rude, but I think that my mother went along for the social functions, of course as lots of wives did in those days, you know lots of wives did. Because that’s what you did. But you know, having said that, they must have met you know, like-minded people, but I mean half the people, friends of theirs, were people that my father had been to school with anyway, so you know, small community stuff really.

And did your maternal grandparents ever meet your father’s mother?

Yeah. I don’t know whether, I can’t remember ever taking her on a visit to them, but certainly when they visited and stayed with us, when my mother’s parents stayed with us, you know, they would meet. And I remember that was always quite strained, I think. I think my grandmother who was my mother’s mother was very sort of sweet and was a sort of you know, normal, round sort of grandmother, was rather terrified of my father’s mother and so I think they met as little as possible really. But it definitely, you know, definitely it happened and everybody was incredibly polite to each other.

On what sort of occasions?

Only when they came to stay with us. And I can’t remember whether that was for, you know, special occasions. I mean they used to, I think after my grandfather retired and after he had been so ill, I think they used to come and spend a week with us or something. And so they must have met then. Considered a holiday I suppose, holiday in Lancashire for them. [laughs]

When you look back on your mother, how do you see her?

How do I see her? As a guiding force d’you mean, or… as anything? Betty Jackson Page 526 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51)

Yes, and how d’you feel about her as a presence in your life and all that?

Well I think, I mean I think I still miss her. There are times when even as it’s been so long, you know, twenty odd years since she died, you know, there are things that happen and I think oh, I’ll just phone mummy and tell her. You know, it’s just stupid, but it’s that thing about still in your head only being always twenty-nine or whatever the optimum age is for you, you know, you actually really do stay in your head there and so therefore, you know, I suppose at that moment in your life, you know, that’s when all of these people were you know, the most important people to tell or the most important people to seek advice from, or whatever. There’s lots of things and I mean you know, I sort of wish, I wish she’d been around a little bit longer, I wish she’d met my children. She met David, which was a good thing, you know, she put up with all the other boyfriends along the way, good and bad. She was, I think that she was incredibly encouraging, incredibly pro, wanted not success, but I mean she did sort of see me get a couple of awards at the beginning and she absolutely loved it, she absolutely – she saw the first few shows, she absolutely loved coming, you know, she absolutely loved being part of that. She delighted in what I did. But I think she sort of enjoyed, you know, the party aspect, but she also was thrilled that I’d found something that I liked, that I loved, that I was passionate about, that I could actually get a grip on and that gave me much more than ever she thought possible I think, really. So I remember her as being, yes very, not matter of fact, but very sensible, but she had an incredible capacity for life I think. She just enjoyed things. She enjoyed good conversation, she enjoyed good food, good wine, she enjoyed beautiful surroundings, she enjoyed anything to do with meeting other people, she was never, ever afraid of that, whereas I am, you know. She was always much better. She could work a room brilliantly [laughs], which I can’t, I always get stuck in a corner and can’t find a way out of the most boring conversation in the world. And I think she was quite, she was still a bit – you know, that’s not to say that she probably you know, had she lived to a ripe old age she might have driven us all mad, I don’t know, we didn’t get that chance. But she was very gracious and she was incredibly gracious in death, because she knew for a long time and we were all able to say goodbye and she made it possible for us to do that, which I think is one of the great gifts she gave us. And she summoned all of her friends and acquaintances and you know, because she knew and so that was a period of grace, that’s the only way I Betty Jackson Page 527 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51) can put it, which sounds a bit sort of silly really, but she was incredibly gracious in life and gracious in death, which is an extraordinary achievement I think.

What did she die of?

Cancer. Undiagnosed first of all, and took hold, went rampant very quickly.

And how difficult was that for you?

How difficult is it when your mother dies of cancer? Pretty difficult. I mean, you know especially as we had been, you know she had been involved, but anyway. So let’s not go into the tragedy, you know. She was actually incredibly supportive at huge moments in my life, but I think my sister would say exactly the same thing about her. You know, there was no division there at all, she felt very close and I think she delighted in the fact that my sister and I promised, you know, that we would always be close and remain so and not because of her, but she would have been thrilled that we still do. And I think you know, there is a tug there, you know, there’s a sort of reminder for both of us now and again that what she would’ve liked. She did make things happen. She made things joyful, she made very good parties and she made good fun.

How happy are you or otherwise?

Erm, that’s a very difficult question. I am, I think I am generally happy, given a few small irritations. I think I’m generally – you know, it’s difficult to define happiness. I mean I am optimistic, I am you know, I am generally positive, I am, but actually to say happy, that’s quite a difficult one. It’s quite something if you achieve happiness, isn’t it? ‘Cos it means a lot of things have to come together in synch. I promise I will be in the future.

How… thinking how to put this – when you think about you know, what you’ve done, what you’ve achieved, the work you’ve done and so forth, how far does that go in you know, has it met your hopes, your expectations…

Betty Jackson Page 528 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51)

Not at all. I’m disappointed with achievement generally. I am disappointed because – and I always think well, I’ll do better next time and I know it’s getting a bit late in the day [laughing] to say that, but I do genuinely approach each, you know, there’s a lot of new things happening workwise, I mean notwithstanding you know, there’s a new collection every six months, but you know, there’s a new contract that we’ve done, there’s lots of other things happening in a small way, people are asking me to do interesting things now. You know, there’s Trustee of the V&A which I’m thrilled about. You know, there’s work with the Royal College, there’s work with the Royal Society of Arts and the RDI and all of that is very exciting, but as far as one’s achievements, I’m not sure we’re even halfway there yet.

So what’s missing?

We can do better.

How? I mean…

Oh, first of all we could be financially much better off and I know that it’s a result of you know, certain decisions and certain things that we’ve decided to keep small and keep control and keep all of that, but the thing, it’s very important when you do, you can’t ever keep still because not only does you know, the season change and fashion changes and that’s the nature of it and that’s the most exciting, but that the world changes. I mean it’s a very different place now from when we started. You know, the competition is huge, this import of goods. I had lunch with an editor of a magazine today and she said how do you feel about one certain high street store selling skirts for four pounds. Well how on earth can anybody make a skirt, you know you can’t do it unless somebody is really not being paid to do a job and you know, there’s all sorts of issues now, you know moral issues regarding, you know where you manufacture goods, where you buy cloth, which are going to become much more important in the very near future. And that’s not even taking in consideration doing, you know, the next thing, the next sort of clothes that people will want to wear next season. You still have to be more attractive than the four pound skirt, because otherwise everybody’ll bugger off and buy the four pound skirt and not buy your one at three hundred and sixty, which is absolutely, understand. So there’s lots of Betty Jackson Page 529 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side A (part 51) questions going forward, lots of questions going forward. I just, I want to, I want to be more satisfied aesthetically with the product I think, more than anything.

But, I go back to the question I asked before, what is it that’s missing?

I think, if I knew you see, I would do it, obviously.

What do you sense?

I think we’re in the middle of a sort of reinvention stage really, where we’re paying much more attention to the product and…

[End of Tape 26 Side A] Betty Jackson Page 530 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52)

Tape 26 Side B [part 52]

And we’re paying more attention to the product and hopefully getting it to be more attractive, desirable, all of those things, but much more real and more honest. But that’s not to say that you know, I’m very positive about it, I’m looking forward to the challenge, it’s not that I’m thinking, oh blimey, you know, how are we gonna cope with the high street influx, because I’m not at all, I’m confident of our ability as a team going forward, I’m very excited about the developments that we’re making, I’m very proud of what we’re doing. But I’m not sure you ever reach nirvana here you know, I’m not sure, you know you look at a collection and you always think well, why didn’t I do, you know, I should have done that or, you know, why didn’t I, you know. And there’s always self-doubt comes first after a collection and after a show and after a presentation or anything. And you think well okay, I’ll do it better next time. I’ll remember that and I’ll actually take it forward and do it better next time.

What would it mean to be more real, more honest?

I think to actually – they are vague terms, I know. It means to me to do, as a designer I don’t think you work in a vacuum, I think you must respond and I’ve said this I think on one of the very early tapes, you must respond to social and economic forces and you must you know, almost be a grass that blows in the wind to respond to these sort of external forces that happen. And if you respond rightly, then it means that you’re happier with the product, that you’ve had a more honest reaction to you know, what your vision of the future is. I can’t put it more specifically than that. It’s something to do with satisfaction, it’s something to do with you know, being able to stand by your merchandise and say you know, this is really what I would like people to choose to wear in the future.

How much does that have to do with the objective garments and how much to do with how you are?

I don’t know, I can’t separate the two. I think I’m probably very critical, I think I’m probably not very easily pleased. There’s certain things that, it’s a funny mixture, there’s certain things that you look at and they bring sort of instant joy and you sort of know yes, Betty Jackson Page 531 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52) this is completely what I want from this, this is the perfect shape, this is a brilliant fabric, it’s in a gorgeous colour, fantastic. It’s a bit the same as looking at a painting. Certain things lift the soul, certain things lift the spirits, certain things just have that feel good factor and I can’t honestly look at every piece in the collection and it gives me that. So therefore it’s by definition that I am disappointed with some of the pieces in the collection, but sometimes I sort of make an excuse that they are there for a different reason, you know, they are there either for commercial reasons or you know, various odd things. So, but I think, I’m not sure that I would ever be entirely satisfied.

What’s an example of a garment where you did feel this was, this is absolutely…

Well it does happen, it happens often. I mean it’s happened with one of the, well several things from this new collection, you know. Several things are just, you look at it and you think, gosh, that’s really lovely and it started off as a tiny little square of fabric and a bit of s squiggle on the paper, you know. And actually that’s exactly what I thought, I was thinking of when, you know, and then the circle is complete, you know. I think the tricky bit is when you invite the general public in to have a look, because it’s almost like sort of, you know, you’ve satisfied yourself, but then you then, there’s this whole other thing that you have to satisfy other people as well and that’s quite difficult. In fact I have almost stopped worrying about it, because actually you know, now there’s too much choice and now if people don’t appreciate what I do, then they’re allowed to not do, because you know, we have been moderately successful over quite a long period of time now and so therefore one must come to the conclusion that there’ve been a few people who’ve liked it along the way. And hopefully we’ll go on for a while yet, you know, pleasing a lot more people. And if people don’t, then that’s fine. This is also fine. It’s, you know, they just don’t get on my train, that’s all.

Can you give an example of a garment that you looked at and you said, that is absolutely what I imagined, what I wanted, come out just right?

There’s a petal coat which is the most lovely shape, this time. And it’s a new shape for us and the fabric – like I said, it’s the coming together of a lot of different things. There’s also the most lovely cotton dress that’s just simple and easy and you know, and it’s just, it Betty Jackson Page 532 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52) just works and we haven’t had to change it and you know, we cut it first time and it just looked gorgeous and so often there’s things like that.

This is in the collection which you’ve…

Which is coming out next spring, spring 2006.

Colours?

Yeah, there are colours, yes. Dark colours, dark colours for spring, we’ve had enough of this violent, so we’re going dark colours. Well they look lovely.

What colours?

They’re sort of slate grey and donkey brown and sort of blue, all look as if they’ve been dusted with dust. But then, against that there’s the most fantastic sunset orange and a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful limoncello yellow, which is sort of like – well everything looks like it’s been dusted with smoke, just a beautiful soft lemon, but set against all of these dark colours are just fabulous. So it’s a different, different spectrum of colour this time.

So, in order to be what you want it to be, is it a garment that ends up looking how you visualised it, how you imagined it?

Doesn’t disappoint. Yeah, I often say that you know, looking at it from a customer’s point of view – well I mean it’s looking at it from my point of view, right from the beginning. You choose the colour of a fabric and that can be a very small square of whatever colour, colour from a painting, colour from a pantone book, colour from another bit of fabric that you’ve saved that you loved colour, colour juxtaposed with another colour that you’ve seen in an exhibition somewhere and you know, this sort of comes from anywhere. But the colour that you’ve put down, sent off for a cloth to be dyed in comes back and it’s this colour that you’ve made the decision about. Meanwhile, you’ve done a squiggle on a piece of paper and handed it to a technical person who makes the pattern to realise what Betty Jackson Page 533 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52) your squiggle of a drawing was on a piece of paper which you’ve explained. And then a cutter cuts the garment in this coloured cloth that you’ve already sent off and then the seamstress makes it with your instructions about where you want stitching, where you don’t want to see stitching, where you want it to be finished, inside and outside. And all of those things come together, you’re not disappointed about the colour, you’re not disappointed about the cloth and the feel, you’re not disappointed about the shape of the garment and then you’re not disappointed about how it makes. And all of those things come together and make something that’s incredibly desirable that actually gives me a physical rush. I mean it’s a very odd thing, it gives me a physical feeling of well-being, of joy, of… and that’s what happens when it’s good. And I always say that that also must be passed on to the customer, so if you walk into a shop and you see a colour that you love and you get up close to it and you’re not disappointed and you hold it next to you and you’re not, you pick the garment up, you’re not disappointed by its touch and you look at the shape and you want to take you along to the next stage, so you’re not disappointed by the shape. And then you try it on, in the process of trying on you see inside this garment and it doesn’t disappoint, and when you put it on, you feel fabulous. It’s the same thing, isn’t it? Then the circle is complete, really.

So what you’re saying, if I understand you is that you’d like more of the garments to fill all those criteria?

Yeah. Quite hard that one. ‘Cos there’s always a bugger of a pant that gets in there somewhere. [laughs]

Is David in, does he, you know, are you and he of like mind in this?

Erm…

I mean when you’re dissatisfied with the collection, you know, how does he react, relate – does he have similar reactions, does he contradict you, you know?

He has his own, you know, some things that I think are fabulous he thinks are hideous and some things he will – normally he understands beauty, he understands beautiful things, Betty Jackson Page 534 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52)

David. He knows whether a show is well received or not, he obviously knows whether a collection has been well received or not because you know, he’s the first one that gets the figures so then he has the you know, ghastly or fabulous task of sorting it all out. So, but he often says you know, he’s, he is a facilitator, you know, whether it’s good or bad he will facilitate it and has done for many years, you know, so he looks at the situation then. He never, ever, ever interferes with, to put a collection right or – and sometimes he criticises, but it’s very rarely, you know, you’ve done this wrong, get it right next time. We don’t have conversations like that really. I think largely because it is really very obvious – we haven’t had a wrong one now for some time, touch wood.

A wrong collection or a wrong garment?

Oh, there’s a couple of wrong garments, but they get lost, you know, they can be removed from the whole thing. You know, we do a lot of garments, you know, there’s two hundred and sixty, easily, not counting the knitwear, so a lot of garments, so you’re allowed two or three to go wrong in that ratio, I think. But he’s never critical, the only thing that he I think would criticise is actually if you’ve been, if you’ve decided the wrong path you know, or you’ve had an opportunity and you haven’t taken it, or you know, you’ve given up before the end of something. But apart from that he’s, he takes what’s given really, he’s very good in that respect.

Who d’you think has been most influential on you?

For ever? Oh, help. Maybe there isn’t one person, I’m not sure there is one person. But if you mean another designer, it’s not something I look at I think. I think I’m more influenced by strong women really, because that’s the sort of, the struggle rather than other clothes people, because we do what we want to do clothes-wise, you know, we’re almost, if there is a loop, you know, we’re either in it or we’re out of it, but I actually don’t care because we carry on doing lovely things, I think. But as you, I mean I think the struggle is to do with woman’s struggle, I think people who have influenced me in my life have been you know, women who’ve had the same difficulties, but not necessarily been designers you know, but actually people who’ve brought young families and worked all their lives and actually been torn between your two sides. You know, there’s always a sort of a guilty Betty Jackson Page 535 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52) path to tread and I think I’ve said before that you know, my children always say you know, that we know which pecking order we come in with mother, you know, it’s always work first and we’re sort of somewhere behind, you know, straggling along. So I think it’s sort of strong, sort of pioneering women that I would identify with and there’s so many of those that you can’t really, you know, it would be trite for me to sort of pick out a few, because often, you know, they’re people that only I know, you know, that there’s some people that I’ve met who are incredibly positive and an absolute inspiration, you know with just the way they handle a certain situation. But to actually list you know, a category of well-known people, I’m not sure I can ever do that.

Can you say at all, you know, any of the designers you particularly admire for example?

Well I mean I, you know one always does sort of say people like Claire McCardell and you know, Coco Chanel, although I’m afraid Coco Chanel must have been a complete bitch by the time [laughs] she gave up. It is that sort of, people who really dare to do something different, but not in a sensational way. I think I more and more and more, I loathe sensation and that goes back to the honesty factor about a garment, you know. If you do it and you’re pleased with it, you are proud of it, you are proud of the shape and the inside and the outside and all of those things that we’ve talked about now, I think it’s, I think then you’ve sort of done it and all of these people, I mean those people are very well- known, you know those two female designers, but there’s lots of women who’ve achieved in spite of huge adversity. You know, or women who’ve actually it’s just, you know the White Swans woman, whatever she’s called. You know, I read the White Swans book when it came out. I mean how could you fail not to be inspired by a woman like that, you know. I mean I know Sylvie Guillem very well, the ballet dancer and she’s completely inspirational because she’s beautiful and she talks about you know, the pain going through, you know that she goes through with performances and it’s part of her life, pain being part of her life and, but because she has to, you know it’s, because she has to go on because it’s passionate and it’s part of her soul. You know, that’s completely inspirational. And then you talk to, you know, people who’ve, I don’t know, had six children or people who are really well-known in their field, a couple of friends of ours who’ve remained absolutely feet on the ground, you know regardless of all the publicity and the paparazzi and that sort of inspirational, you know, that they still have a balanced view and they can actually cut Betty Jackson Page 536 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52) that bit out of their life and their children are normal and they have normal relationships and you know, they over-cook the lamb and you know, and they you know, burn a shirt by you know, doing something stupid or you know, get too drunk one night. You know, everybody’s… but there’s lots and lots and lots of women I find completely inspirational. I must say less so with men, but that’s a whole other story. [laughs]

And how, you know, from this point now do you look, how do you think of the future?

I’m very excited about what’s going to happen next. I mean the project with Debenhams I think’ll be great. It’s been a challenge and it’s been a fantastic opportunity to work with new, young, exciting people. It’s, workwise I think that that’s going to be terrific. Certainly the team here are exceptional at the moment, we’ve got a great bunch of people working with us who are also excited. You know, there’s been a few changes in the last twelve months with key members of staff, but really I think it’s looking very good and that’s always great, when you’ve got a team who are excited about what they’re doing, you know, who bring something to the table rather than – that’s all very exciting. And so we’re really looking forward to what’s happening next, actually. I mean as far as the main collection is concerned, it’s got great reviews this time, we’ve had an exceptionally good spring and are looking forward to you know, winter, notwithstanding all the competition that is out there. In a way it’s paying off because we are very small, we can keep it small so there’s you know, sometimes there’s only six of one thing in the whole wide world and that’s a thrill, it’s not a disappointment, it’s a thrill really. So all in all, I think what’s coming next, there’s a great Tommy Cooper line. He comes on stage and he’s laughing and he says, ‘I’m laughing because I know what’s coming next’ [laughs], which is great really, because I do feel excited and confident and not frightened at all about what we’re gonna do in the next two or three years. I think it’ll be huge satisfaction all round, I hope so anyway. It’ll be very exciting.

D’you have any sort of, well apart from what we talked about a few minutes ago about you know, more satisfaction from the individual garments, is there any sort of thing that you’d like to achieve or you know, hurdle or you know?

Betty Jackson Page 537 C1046/10 Tape 26 Side B (part 52)

I don’t really have, I don’t think I ever set out to achieve anything anyway, really. I mean I wanted, I had a – I still do – I have a vision of how I see women and their attitude to dressing which I find in me a passion and all I really wanted was people to share that vision. I don’t think I set out to you know, be either – and I don’t think I am the most well-known. I think I’m only well-known because I’ve been around [laughs] so long really. And actually it is interesting, a lot of people who have heard of the name aren’t really sure of what the product is. So I would like to, in the next two or three years, really make sure that you know, the product gets put on the map rather than the individual. I’m going to step backwards and the product is going to be pushed forwards I hope. So it’s going to be a very exciting phase I think. And also, I mean for me personally, all the other projects that I’m undertaking are really fantastic things to be involved with, you know. The V&A has always been my favourite museum in the world, so to be part of the decision making there is just absolutely overwhelmingly special. You know, on a personal level, domestically, the children are finding their feet so hopefully they’ll be okay and you know, and find something that they love just as much as we have done really.

[End of Tape 26 Side B]

[End of recording]