BEHIND ENEMY LINES; The Experiences of a Army in World War H

• Lucas Garrison's interview with Jolin G. Kormann

• February 10,2006

• Advanced Placement United States Histoiy

• Mr. Haight

John G. Kormann

OH GAR 2006 Table of Contents

• Contract 2

• Statement of Purpose 3

• Biography of John Kormann 4

• ABriefHistoryofWorldWarll 5

• Interview Transcription 17

*> Interview Analysis 61

• Time Index Recording Log , 65

• Works Consulted 67 Aiidrcvv's SCOPAL SCHOOL

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Purnose Statement

The purpose of tiiis oral history project involving John G. Kormann is to provide the reader with a clearer understanding ofa soldier in World War II. However, the project also gives the reader an in-depth look at Operation Varsity—an often overlooked, yet decisive, battle. This oral history project goes far beyond what is explained in textbooks, as it illustrates personal reactions and feelings to World War II. Ganison 4

Biography of John Kormann

John G, Koimann was born in New York City on July 30, 1924, and was raised in

New York. He attended the High School of Music and Art, in New York. Here, he pursued his interest in art, until he went on to Colombia University. In the middle of his first year in college, Mr. Kormann entered the draft for World War II in 1943 and became an army paratrooper in the 17'*' Airborne . In World War II, he fought in the end ofthe Battle ofthe Bulge and in Operation Varsity in . After his service in

World War II, Mr. Kormann stayed in , Germany, with the CIC, the Counter

Intelligence , where he searched for Nazi leaders. In Berlin, he met his wife, Eisa, and they manied in 1949. When he returned from World War II, Mr. Kormann graduated from Colombia University in 1950 with a B.A degree, a master's degree and part ofa

PhD. He served in the Army and the Reserves for thirty years from 1943 to 1973. In the service, John Konnann rose from a to a and earned three campaign medals, one invasion Anowhead award, a Medal of Heroism and Valor, and Four Stars,

After World War II, he worked for the Department of State, and later joined the Foreign

Service, where he became a diplomat in Libya. After living in many parts ofthe world, such as, Libya, Germany England, and the Philippines, Mr. Kormann, a Democrat, now

whom also live in Chevy Chase. A vigorous, self-assured man, he is active in his

Methodist church and enjoys art. Mr, Kormann has written his memoirs and is in the process publishing them. Garrison 5

A Brief Historv of World War II

World War II was one ofthe greatest events in the 20"' century. Spanning six continents, it involved almost every major country in the world. In addition, it had a direct impact on the late 1900's. and was the defining moment that shaped the world in the 20^^ century. Throughout World War II, many battles became very popular For example, knowing battles such as D-Day and the Battle ofthe Bulge are common knowledge in American History. All of these battles are considered pivotal to the end of

World War II. However, one battle that is not known is Operation Varsity. Although it is unpopular, Varsit>' was a decisive Allied Forces victoiy in the end ofthe war. Operation

Varsity was the plan, developed by British General Montgomery, for Allied forces to cross the River in Gennany and overwhelm Gennan forces. Operation Varsit>' should be recognized as a key battle, because, due to its success, the Allies started to gain control of Germany, leading to the end of Hitler's domination in Europe. If Operation

Varsity had failed, it would have been much more difficult for the Allies to overrun Hitler

soldier in the 17"' U.S. Airborne division, who parachuted across the Rhine River in

Operation Varsity,

World War I ended in 1919, just twenty years before World War II began and set the stage for World War II in Europe. At the end of World War I, The Treaty' of Garrison 6

Versailles, signed by Germany in 1919, forced Germany to pay reparations to many

European countries. Also, Germany's military limited and sanctioned. Due to the German bitterness to The Treat}' of Versailles and the end of World War I, these two events were contributors to the start of World War II. The Germans believed the Treaty of Versailles to be unfair, but they had no choice but to sign it because the Allies would invade

Germany and cripple it. So, reluctantly, the Germans signed the treaty. As John J. Vail states in his book. World War II: The War in Europe:

The Versailles Treaty provoked tremendous resentment among all Gennans. They

felt the provisions ofthe treaty were unfair and made a mockery ofthe 'just

peace' that the Allies had promised. Nevertheless, the leaders of Germany's new

democracy... felt that they had no choice but to approve the treaty. German

politicians... believed the government had betrayed the German people (Vail 11).

Many Gennan organizations opposed the signing ofthe treaty. The Treaty of Versailles contributed to the start of Worid War H, because the Germans felt as though they were treated unfairly, and this caused hostility' between the Gennans and the rest of Europe.

The change in government in Germany was a key contributor to the beginning of

World War U. Although many German groups tried to overthrow the German democracy, only the Nazi Party, led by Adolf Hitler, was successful. In 1923, Hitler was imprisoned.

When he was released, Hitler made the Nazi party more powerful, and gained more support, especially, the support of working class Gemians during Gennany's depression.

In 1933, after many attempts to gain control of Germany, Hitler became the German Ganison 7

chancellor. By manipulating the public, when he was chancellor. Hitler became dictator

of Germany in 1934. His main manipulation tool was Communism and the fear of

communism in Germany. He scared the public into believing that communism was a

threat to Germany and that he was the only person able to stop it. One example of Hitler's

manipulation was the Reichstag fire on February 27, 1933. The Reichstag Fire was when the Reichstag building, the German parliament meeting house, was set fire. The blame

immediately fell on the communists, and many key Gennan communist party members were imprisoned, exiled, or killed. As a result, the communist party was knocked out of the election for Germany, and Hitler gained control over Germany. After the Germans crippling loss in World War I, Hitler wanted to reestablish Germany as a European and world power. After Hitler gained sole control of Germany, he would stop at nothing to achieve his next goal, Gennan domination of Europe and eventually, the world.

Hitler knew that to gain total control of Europe, he would need to develop a powerful military, which could contend with the Allies joint military. Despite the limits on the German military, which were established by the Treaty of Versailles, he rebuilt the

German military. After the Gennan army was restored, He sent his troops to occupy

Rliineland. Just like rebuilding the German military, the occupation ofthe Rhineland broke the Treaty of Versailles. Despite, the violation ofthe treaty, no European country did anything to stop Hitler. As a result, he kept expanding his power into many countries such as Austria and Czechoslovakia. Britain and reacted to Hitler's advancements with many warnings to him. However, Hitler would not let an>'thing get in the way of his Garrison 8 desire for domination. As a result ofthe conflicting views between the Allies and

Germany on how Europe should be organized, Germany and the Allies clashed even more than before.

Hitler now had Poland in his sights. The Allies said that if Germany invaded

Poland, the Allies would declare war on Germany. In 1939, Germany signed a non- aggression pact with the Soviet Union, under Josef Stalin's control, for a period often years. This meant that Germany and Russia, which was allied with Britain and France, would not fight each other for at least ten years. Because ofthe alliance, Hitler could invade Poland and not be concerned with the Russians attacking the German forces in

Poland. Regardless ofthe threats from the Allies, German forces invaded Poland on

September I, 1939. In only five weeks, Germany had control over Warsaw, Poland's capital. German forces only lost 11,000 soldiers in the five week battle. Two days after the German invasion of Poland, The Allies declared war on Germany. For the following nine months, Germany and the Allies prepared for what would become one ofthe largest wars in history.

The fighting in World War II started with the Germans aggressively attacking

France's defense known as the Maginot line. Vail says the Maginot line was a, "series of heavily defended fortifications that ran north fonn the Swiss border...these fortifications were in place to protect France's eastern border...the French military believed the

Maginot line was impregiiable"(Vail 22). Although the French believed the Maginot line was impenetrable, the French defense was useless against the Germans Blitzkrieg Garrison 9 strategy. The Blitzkrieg strategy, developed by the Gennans, was the rapid and devastating attacks by the German military. The Blitzkrieg consisted of sending in tanks and planes to bombard an area. On May 10, the fighting started when the Germans attacked allied forces from the Ardennes Forest in Belgium. After avoiding the Maginot line. Hitler began his march into the heart of France. Because the British troops had retreated, Hitler met little resistance, and, on June 14, 1940, Hitler had control over most of France and had captured Paris, After capturing Paris, Hitler knew that capturing

England would result in victory and German Domination of Europe.

After conquering France, Hitler could was in reach of European domination, but

England stood in his way. Hitler developed a plan to invade England. His plan was known as . Operation Sea Lion called for nearly a quarter million

Gennan troops to land on the southern coast of England. However, the German army was ailing, so the plan could not be canied out until Germany has sufficient supplies, troops, and ships. Hitler ordered for the constant bombings of England, by German planes, until

Operation Sea Lion could be canied out. This started the . Both England and Germany had high caliber air forces, which would make this battle very hard fought.

If Hitler's plan worked, the invasion of England would have been extremely easy for the

Germans, and the Germans would have total control over Europe.

On July 10, 1940, German planes began to attack the English navy and air force.

However, the British air force, called the , or RAF, put up a fight.

Although the Gennan planes came by the thousands, outnumbering the RAF, the Royal Garrison 10

Air Force eliminated the Gennan air force little by little. The battle raged on for approximately 3 months, and finally, on September 15, 1940 the battle came to a close.

The Germans sent hundreds of planes to bomb Britain. The RAF fought the Germans with every plane they could fly, and eventually, eliminated almost all ofthe German planes. The RAF's epic fight changed the outcome of Worid War II. Winston Churchill, in a speech, said about the Battle of Britain that, "Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few" (qtd. in Murray 24), Although England thwarted Gennany's attack, they could not withstand anther powerful Gennan offensive.

As a result, the United States knew that in order to stop German domination, they would have to contribute in the war.

After World War I, the United States foreign policy shifted from imperialism to isolationism. Americas also believed that they should remain neutral with foreign events.

However, a majority of U.S citizens urged President Roosevelt to help the Allies and fight Hitler and the Nazis. In March of 1941, after the Neutrality Act had been modified by Congress, the U.S could aid the Allies. Next, Roosevelt's Lend-Lease Act was passed by congress. The Lend-Lease Act permitted the United States to give money and supplies

Allies, mainly England, but after the war. The allies would return all the bonowed goods that the United States gave Great Britain and France about fifty million dollars wortli of supplies and loans. On December 17, 1940, in a press conference, Roosevelt compared the Lend-Lease Act to a neighbor's house fire, "Suppose the house ofthe President's neighbor catches fire... If he can take the hose...he may be able to put out the fire. He Garrison 11 does not say his hose cost 15$; pay me $15, He doesn't want 15$, but his hose back when the fire is over" (Hofstadter 385). Ahhough America was not yet involved in World War

II, it clearly supported the Allies. On December 7 1941, Japan, a new ally of Germany, attacked the U.S naval base in Peari Harbor, Hawaii. As a result ofthis, the U.S entered the war in December of 1941. The U.S. chose to fight Germany before dealing with the

Japanese. When the United States joined the Allies, the Allies gained the upper hand against Germany.

As a result ofthe U.S. involvement in the war, Germany felt as though it had to defeat Russia to maintain control ofthe war. The first battle in the Soviet Union was at

Stalingrad. The Geimans reduced Stalingrad to rubble, and then began sending ttoops to comb tlirough the city. The Russian army, which also had men and boys who lived in

Stalingrad, were easily defeated by the powerful German anny. Although Hitler had already believed they had won the battle, the Russian army was about to strike against the

Germans, Stalingrad was encircled by over one million Russian soldiers, the Red Anny on November 19, 1942. The Russian soldiers used a tactic similar to siege warfare; they cut off all Gennan supplies. Little by little, the Germans became frostbitten, sick, and their resources deteriorated. However, the Germans refused to surrender. Finally, the Red

Army led one final charge into the cit)' and destroyed the ailing German army. The casualties ofthe Battle of Stalingrad were costly; with the total number of casualties over one million. Because ofthe casualties that the Germans suffered, they were never able to recuperate from their loss, and this began the end of Worid War II in Europe. Now that Garrison 12

Hitler's army was greatly reduced, the Allies, led by the United States, began their advancement to end the war. Now that the Allies were going to surge for the end ofthe war, both Roosevelt and Churchill said that would fight for a German "unconditional sunender".

The Allies knew that to defeat Hitler, they had to recapture France. After the

Allies had defeated the Germans, still suffering from Stalingrad, in North Africa, the

Allies took out Germany's main ally, Italy. Now that the Allies had gained the upper hand in the war, they began the campaign into France. The allies plan, called Operation

Overlord, would have Allied troops land on the northern French coastline. On June 6,

1944, Allied troops landed at Nomiaiidy Beach, on the French coastline, this was called

D-Day. D-Day was an epic battle between the German's and Allies. In the end ofthe battle, the Allies had lost around ten thousand men. Flowever, the Allies victory at

Normandy allowed the Allies to push back. After Normandy, the Allies forced the

Germans to retreat all the way to the Rhine River. Along with D-Day, there were many decisive victories that allowed the allies to push the Germans back, for example, the

Battle of The Bulge. The Allies then had to make one final push to cross the Rhine River and invade Germany.

The plan to cross the Rliine River was known as Operation Varsity. Operation

Varsity was a strategy developed by British general Montgomery. Operation Varsity called for and several thousand troops, along with artillery, to parachute behind enemy lines, across the Rhine River. Operation Varsity was much different than any other Ganison 13

mission in World War II, because ofthe unique planes that were used. Instead of using

real planes to drop the soldiers, the Allies used engineless planes made of aluminum and

titanium. They did this because the small planes would not be detected by German radar.

Although the planes were made of titanium, they were surprisingly heavy. The titanium

planes, which canied soldiers and artillery, were towed by larger planes. However, the

Germans knew the attack was coming so the stealth aspect was not as effective.

Operation Varsity's purpose was to allow Allied troops to begin to make an

invasion into the heart of Germany. Montgomery proposed the plan to Eisenhower, and,

despite initial reluctance to approve the plan, Eisenhower gave into Montgomery and

approved Operation Varsity. After the plan had been approved, he began making the

necessary preparations to carry out the largest aerial assault in World War II. On March

24, 1945, Montgomery's plan was executed. The American 17 airborne and the 6

British airborne took off from northem France and traveled 3 hours up the English

Channel, into Germany, until they were dropped. They were dropped into the heart ofthe

enemy. The total number of that dropped was 17,500 soldiers. Not only had the Germans known the attack was coming, but, for two hours, the Allied troops dropped

into the German heartland in broad day light. The 17,500 Allied soldiers were up against

85,000 fortified Gennans. Despite the odds against them. The American and British paratroopers won the battle. Although Operation Varsit>' only lasted one day, the

numbers the Allies suffered many losses of both soldiers and supplies were devastating.

Operation Varsity resulted in a victory for the Allies; there was a great cost to victory. A Ganison 14 total of 6,292 Allied soldiers were killed and wounded in the one day mission. Operation

Varsity was the worst day of combat for the Allies airborne troops.

Montgomery's Operation Varsity was a decisive, yet under appreciated, victory for the Allies in the closing of World War II. Once the Allies gained control ofthe Rhine, they were able to easily transport supplies and troops into Germany, to prepare for fighting in the German front. As a result of Operation Varsity, the Allies were able to begin the final stage ofthe war, the invasion if Gennany. Operation Varsity facilitated the deployment of troops to secure Germany; also, it gave the upper hand to the Russians, who forced the German surrender on May 2, 1945.

The reaction to the success of Operation Varsity was extremely positive. The positive reaction is illustrated in many newspaper articles. On upbeat summarization was in the Washington Post, on March 25, 1945. This article showed many examples ofthe positive reaction to Operation Varsity, The article stated that, "Airborne troops and naval forces were thrown into the greatest operation since D-Day" [The Wa.shington Post

March 25, 1945). The soldiers who took part in Operafion Varsity, ahhough somber because ofthe casualties, sfill felt upbeat about the victory. This is in an article in The

Washington Post, on March 26, 1945. The article described what soldiers did after the battle. The title ofthe article was "GIs Fish in Rhine, A Rear Area Now" this article showed the troop's relief and happiness that the battle is over, by reporting that they were fisliing in the Rliine. As well as showing the solders views, the article gives an optimistic outlook on things to come when it states, "So fast is this war moving that the Rhine is Garrison 15 already what they call a rear area" {The Washington Post March 26, 1945). Operation

Varsity was portrayed as a big success for the allies. Plus, Operation Varsity gave the

Allies momentum going into the end ofthe war.

Many historians have argued over the nobility and motives ofthe American soldiers During World War II. For example, Stephen E. Ambrose, a popular World War

II historian, glorified the U.S fight against the evil in Europe, In his novel. The Victors.

Stephen Ambrose reflects on the American soldiers struggle between the right and wrong in World War II when he writes, "...the American cifizen soldiers knew the difference between right and wrong, and they didn't want to live in a world in which evil prevailed.

So they fought, and won, and we all of us, living and yet to be born, must be forever profoundly grateful" (Ambrose 351). As with any event in llistory, there are many differing opinions, and World War II is no different. Flowever, no matter how different opinions are, every historian acknowledges the effect that World War II had, has, and will have on the World. On the opposite side ofthe spectrum, Studs Terkel, an oral historian, emphasizes the soldiers motives were much more realistic than what historians, such as Ambrose, perceive it to be. In Terkel's collection of interviews, called The Good

War, one soldier says that, "They have some Hollywood stereotype in mind. No I don't look like John Wayne. We were in it to get it over with, so we could go back home and do what we wanted with our lives" (Terkel 197). Another soldier that Terkel interviewed discussed the common perception of war, "you look forward to the glamour and have no idea ofthe honors" (Terkel 177). By emphasizing the soldier's difficult)' in war, Terkel Ganison 16 shows his belief that the solders and the war are not like the common stereotype. As with any event in history, there are many differing opinions, and World War II is no different.

However, no matter how different opinions are, every historian acknowledges the effect that World War II had, has, and will have on the Worid.

The War in Europe ended with the Invasion of Berlin by the remainder ofthe Red

Anny and some Allied forces. This was also the end of Hitler's rule. The end of Worid

War II was started by the crucial success of Operation Varsity. Without Operation

Varsity, The allied advancement into Gennany would have been much more difficult and the war would have gone on much longer without the success Operation Varsity's success. World War II involved almost every coimtry in the world, helped shape the world today, and was one ofthe most important events in human histor)'. Within World

War II, there were many decisive battles. Some examples of important battles were D-

Day, the Battle of Britain and the Battle of Stalingrad. Although it is not well known.

Operation Varsity belongs on the same list as the other important events in World War II.

Operation Varsit)' is important because it began the Allies assault into Gennany and sparked the end ofthe war. If Operation Varsity had failed, the outcome of Worid War II could have been much different. Garrison 17

Interview Transcription Interviewee/ Nanator: John Kormann Iiiter\'iewer: Lucas Garrison Location: Jolm Kormann's home, Chevy Chase, Maiyland Date: December 30,2005

Lucas Garrison: This is Lucas Ganison, and I am interviewing John Kormann as part

of the American Century Oral History Project. The interview took place on December

30, 2005, at his house in Chevy Chase, Maryland. Can you tell me about your

childhood?

John Kormann: I was born in New York City and went to school there. I went to a

high school called the High School of Music and Art, which was a special high school

for so called talented students, a project of Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia', and T was an art

sludent. Many of the music students became famous later; they were opera stars and

stuff. It was probably the best high school in New York City. After that, I attended

Colombia University, It was interrupted in late 1942, when I went into the army. I went

into the army as a private, and subsequently received a field commission and eventually

ended up after a year of service in the army reserve as a full Colonel.

LG: You said you were drafted; can you describe your feelings about being drafted?

JK: I did something very stupid. When 1 was at Colombia University, I saw all my

fellow students going into the naval officer training program, they had a V5 and a V12

training program there, and I wasn't interested in going into the na\y, so I didnT do

' Mayor of New York City from 19.B to 1945. Garrison 18

an)'thing, and I went down to the draft board and talked to them and said, "I'd like to be

a pilot in the Army Air Corps".

[Break]

The air force hadn't come into existence then. The pilots and the whole air force were

called the Army Air Coips. So I said "I wanted to be a fighter pilot" and they said,

"Fine when you get into the service you can just tell them what you want to do" and that

was it, and that was a huge mistake! Because once you got into the draft ("?inueller?),

the draft process, you didn't have any choice, this was it, and you were just one person,

and instead of ending up in the Air Corps, I ended up in the anny signal core digging

telephone post holes in the Ozarks. After a period of time, I managed to get in to the

Airborne when it did paratroops, and that lead to my subsequent experiences and

eventual coinmission.

LG: After being drafted, what was your opinion on the war?

JK: Not very good (chuckles). In Worid War II, this is just one man's opinion, things

were considerably rougher than it is today. I mean you really were cannon fodder A

private, particularly a private in the infantty, for example really stood a great chance of

noi coming Dacic. You know in World War II, we lost hundreds of thousands of men,

and in my airborne division alone, which was a division ofa little more than 9,000 men,

1,492 were killed and over 4,000 were wounded. It was 6,292 casualties all together in just my airborne division, so the casualties were very high. As a private, I was just

kicked around. The only person I can compare myself to in many ways, for anyone Garrison 19 who has seen the Band of Brothers video program, I was Webster, in that I was the college educated kid, who because I was just a private was kind of surly and I took a dim view to the officers I thought were nincompoops. In many ways some of them were not too bright, I don't think they particulariy liked me, and I didn't particularly like them.

LG: How much did you know about the war before being drafted?

JK: Oh quite a bit because the war had started in 1941 for America. The Germans had been at war since 1939, and the Americans went into the war with Pearl Harbor in 1941, and I remember Pearl Harbor very well. I can remember the Sunday evening when the aimouncement was made, that the Japanese planes had attacked Pearl Harbor, and everyone said "Well where's Peari Harbor?" (Laughs) None even knew where it was, but we found out pretty quickly.

LG: What can you recall about your military training?

JK: My airborne training I remember quite a bit, particularly the emphasis on

"•;'•" -^rr"?"^ ~r i.,,:,.iii^j„ ..i^-^ ^ .—, .— „*w..^w ,« «..jw.p....^. ^», ^vyi s...-vwnipio, and this was totally different than my basic traimng which had been in signal corps, if you didn't snap to when a Sergeant said something to you, you were doing fifty push­ ups. I don't know how many times I had to do twenty five, thirt)', forty, fifty push-ups.

A television show about soldiers in World War IL Band of Brothers. HBO. Garrison 20 and you were drilled so solidly that you almost became a robot. And the reason for that was in combat, and particularly when you are jumping out of airplanes, you've got to act instantaneously to commands, and if you don't your life is on the line. So the training was very tough, we would run miles, I mean they'd get an airborne company out there, and you'd just be running miles and miles just to harden you. It was very tough training. It was the toughest training they had in the army, really, at that time. The airborne was considered the absolute elite of American troops, and they didn't fool around with you. When we went through airborne training particularly, for example, training jumping out of the planes, any guy who hesitated in the door and didn't jump was immediately thrown out. I remember a very good friend of mine, you could say he was my buddy, hesitated and didn't jump and after that particular exercise, I came back to the barracks and his bed was there, perfectly made up, all his stuff was gone, I never heard another word^he disappeared from life! Because he didn't jump, and he was considered a disgrace they were very tough on us.

LG: Can you tell me about the first place you were stationed in Euiope?

JK: The first place I was stationed in Europe was in England, in Swindon which is in the Midlands, and that's where we continued our airbonie training. England was very interesting. I've been back any number of times now since my daughter manied an

Englishman. We go back almost once a year now. England has changed tremendously.

When I first got to Swindon, we landed by ship. We went across the Atlantic in a ship called, the U.S.S Wakefield, that was the military name for the troop ship. They had Ganison 21

close to 10,000 men aboard the ship, and they had virtually our whole division plus

some other units there. And we landed in Liverpool, and I remember getting off the ship

and looking around me and here were these railroad cars which we were going to be

transported in, and they were small. They were half the size of American trains.

Everything was small, I felt like Gulliver in Gulliver's Travels" with the Lilliputians'*

there (laughs). The houses were small, and there were little thatch cottages when we

drove on a train going down from Liverpool to Swindon, and I said, "This is England of

Charles Dickens and Shakespeare." It was just very colorful and during the war, the

English people suffered a lot and they were very much stiff upper lip, but you could tell

that they were suffering. They had little to eat; there was lafioning, and they were good

tough people, and I admired them greatly. Those were my first impressions of them.

Everybody was in unifonn. That was the interesting thing. Women were in uniform, the

two daughters of the king and queen, Margaret and Elizabeth were both in uniform,

whicli is something a little different than we see now. If we were today, they way

England was, both Barbra and Jenna would be in uniform over in Iraq, and its different

times.

¥ ft' Ur^^M r^\A ^-/^.. fool oK^..+ U^; f— C^-- 1 o

" A book by_Jonathan Swift published in 1726. Swift, Jonathan. Gulliver's Travels. London: George Faulkner, 1735. Six inch tall characters in Gulliver's Travels. 1 Garrison 22

JK; Oh a soldier was always homesick. Today, soldiers go over and they come back in

a year they come back in maybe six months, seven months. I was over there three years

before I ever got back to see my parents.

LG: What was the communication between U.S soldiers and the U.S?

JK: Well, you wrote letters, but they were highly censored. You could never tell where

you were. You might be able—no you wouldn't even be able to say you were in

England. I didn't write that often, I wasn't the best son. My mother would get a letter

that, you'd hold it up to the light and there were cut outs all over the place that was the

work of the company censor. Every company had a censor, and he censored the mail

and you never told anybody anything about your training, you could say you were having a hard time, but you couldn't say, "I was working on machinegun M-15" or

something like that. They took a lot ofthe information out ofthe letters.

LG: You were an army paratrooper, can you describe that?

JK: Basically our unit went over for the and I came over slightly later. Ijust hit the tail end of that, but my division, the 17^ airborne, had a terrible time in the Battle of the Bulge. On December 16, 1944, the Germans attacked in the Garrison 23

Ardennes. The Americans were totally unprepared for this. They thought that the

Germans were pretty much finished, they had no more fight left in them and Hitler surprised them. They came down and attacked the Americans and ovenan the American positions. Our division was in England and on December 18, two days later, they were immediately called up and on a rush basis, brought over to France. Some of our troops were flown over, there was bad weather and the were held up for a little while, others went over by sea and all came together in the Ardennes, in a area just northwest of

Bastogne, Bastogne held by the lOT^ Airborne Division. General Patton came in and said he "Relieved", they saved the 101^' Airborne, after it was encircled. No guy in the

lOr' will ever say that Patton saved them. They beat the Germans there; Patton came in after it was all over. He thought at that time, after the Gemians were halted at Bastogne, that this was the end, that they would be retreating and he made a mistake, he made a real mistake. Hitler said, at that time, he "Wanted to take Bastogne at all costs" even after Patton took command, which was on Christmas of 1944. The Germans counter attacked with two Panzer Armies^ because Hitler said he "Wanted Bastogne at all costs". Our division came on line just as Patton came in and Patton thought the

Germans were retreating and said, "What do you do when an anny is retreating? You do what any good general would do, you get after them you attack them, and you destroy

and said "Go after them! Get 'em!" In the meantime in the snow, the fog, no intelligence, and here come these two German Panzer Annies, and our division ran into them, smack into them. A paratroop and airborne division is a lightly armed division;

German arm)' divisions. Garrison 24 we don't have any heavy weaponry, tanks, or things like that. So here we ran into these

German Tiger Tanks and we made some head way, but then we were driven back and

Patton kept saying to our general, "What the hell are you doing!? Get going!" and our general said to him, "I'm taking 1,000 casualties a day in my battalions" and Patton said," That's nonsense! No one over takes 1,000 casualties a day! The Germans are retreating! What are you doing?" but history says, indeed this was the case. Patton had no idea what was happening there because the intelligence was bad, fog, snow, and our guys were going up with no real artillery support, no air support. And subsequently, after it was all done, we were driven back, but then drove the Germans back, and Patton in his diary, later said, "You know, I had no idea the Germans were counter attacking. I shoved these guys in and the hit the Gennans right in the flank and the stopped this counter attack dead in its tracks, history would say I was a genius, but I had no idea that the Germans were counter attacking." But we took tremendous casualties in the Battle ofthe Bulge, but we did succeed, our glider regiments and our paratroop regiment's drove the Germans back to the Gemian border, but at great cost to us.

LG: What was a typical day like in the army?

JK: I was surprised. When I started writing my book, I found out that we got up at 4:30 in the morning. You did a lot of work before breakfast, which was usually around 6:00. so, you had a long tough day in the anny, and troops were constantly training, you were constantly being ordered around, and I at the time was a private, some would Garrison 25 order me around doing this, doing that and it was very tough life. I can't tell you how many times I regretted my sitting on my rear end when I was in Colombia and not becoming an officer because an officer's life was totally different (chuckles)!

LG: What was your relationship with the other soldiers?

JK: Pretty good. I had fine relationships with certain comrades. I established my reputation very early in the army because I grew up in New York, I was a pretty tough kid, and my freshman year I was a wrestler at Colombia, and I was never defeated in a wrestling match. After a period of time, you'd run into some guy who was supposed to be a big tough guy, and I would see what the guy is and if he messed with me, I would pick him out and we would go at it. I remember one time in Swindon, England, there was this big fella called McBride. He was about six tlnee maybe weighed two-fifty, and he and I went at it. And I embarrassed the heck out of him because he couldn't pin me and I was really whipping' his rear end in the wrestling match and that established my reputation. Nobody fooled with me I was known as tough kid, you know, "don't fool with him". On the other hand I had a nickname in the outfit T wa"? rallpH "Rnnpct Tntm" and the reason I was called "Honest John" was because everybody thought of me as a guardhouse lawyer. I was a college kid, and when we would have a problem, they'd say

"Kormami, you're the spokesmen, you get up there." I was always the guy who would have to present whatever case our guys had. If some guy was trouble, I was there to help him out. So, as a consequence, I had a good many friends. Ganison 26

LG: What was relationship with the German troops?

JK: You didn't see any of them. You did not see 'em until the end ofthe war and the only Gennan I saw was at the end of a rifle at a considerable distance. I was always amazed how tough they were. A German soldier was a good soldier. I'm going to make a statement here that is going to surprise many people. I would say, man to man, the

German soldier was better than the average American soldier, man to man. They had far more experience, they had fought on the Russian front, they lived a less privileged life that the average American did, and they were tough soldiers, they were very tough soldiers. At the end ofthe war we started getting kids from the Hitler (?Yougunt?), who weren't particularly good, but the average German soldier was a good soldier. They had been fighting for long time, they came in 1939, and they were seasoned troops. I didn't like SS^. We ran into the SS from time to time and they were tough, they were vicious, they massacred our troops at Nonnandy and at one point in the Ardennes campaign, and in the Battle of the Bulge campaign. I had a lot of respect for the German paratroops.

The paratroopers were not part of the army; they were part of the , the air

^^.^v,. x,xj uv.ii iiiipiwjonjn wao uitti uicy wcic a vciy uouuiaoie loi. iney were gooa soldiers. If you were capttired by a German paratrooper, you were treated with respect.

You were almost a brother.

A group that was part ofthe German military'. Ganison 27

LG: You said you had some experiences with the SS, can you describe one experience?

JK: I had more experience with them in Varsity' than I did in Bastogne. Although in

Q

the Battle of the Bulge, they were the spearhead unit. Siep Detricks SS unit was the

one that spearheaded going into and they were the ones who atrocities at Normandy.

LG: Can you tell me about the first time you were in combat?

JK: The first time was towards the end ofthe Battle ofthe Bulge and I remember being

shelled and 88's were liitting up in trees, and this particular incident led to the change in

my entire life. They were shelling us, and the mess sergeants had just brought us up

some food and it was the first time we were getting hot food. These 88 airbursts were

coming in, and I spoke Gennan, which was a godsend. My parents had come over in

1901, my mother at 16 and my father a little older, but they spoke Gennan and I grew

up in a household where my folks employed young people coining over from Germany.

We had a German maid in the house, so I spoke Gennan. I remember, when they were

shelling us I would make fun of them. Everybody would be nervous as heck and I

would make fun of what was happening. Vd start yelling out in GeiTnan, "Shickelglubin

[shick-el-glue-bin]!" which was a nasty nickname for Hitler I'd say, Shickelglubin!

' Operation Varsity was the plan developed for crossing ofthe Rhine River into Germany by American and British troops. A commander ofa SS unit. Garrison 28

Stop that god damn shelling!" Fd yell it out in German, "Stick it in your ear!" that kind ofthing and the guys would all laugh. They couldn't hear me I was just carrying on, and

I was sitting there with my mess kit eating food and a very heavy set master sergeant came up to me and he was a German reftigee and he said to me, I can still remember Iiis words, he said to me, (German accent) "Vere did you leam your German?" I said, "Oh,

I spoke it as a kid." He said, (Geiman accent) "You speak German very veil. Did you ever tink of going into intelligence?" I said, "No, but anything would be better than what I am doing riglit now" and he said, (German accent) "Vat is your name?" and he took down my name and he took down my serial number and that was the end of that. I never heard anything about it again. But later, after we dropped in at Varsity, some guys in what we call CIC, the Counter Intelligence Corps, they were special agents who were assigned to go after the liigh ranking Nazis and capture them, and the detachment of

CIC personnel going in, were shot up and one or two of them were killed and others were wounded. I got called up to headquarters and this sergeant must have had my name and said, "Hey theirs a kid down there who speaks German. He's a college kid."

And I was called up to become a special agent in the CIC. That changed my entire life, that's how I got commissioned.

LG: You were involved in Operation Varsity can you describe that?

JK: Operation Varsity, on March 24, 145, was the worst day the whole allied airborne had in World War II, In that particular day, 1,070 men were killed and 4,000 were Garrison 29

wounded. Now this is just the airborne, I'm not talking about, like at Nonnandy, where

they lost 25,000 and had a lot of people. The drop in varsity consisted of an American

airborne division and a British airborne division, it had 17, 500 men going in ahead of

General Montgomery^, who wanted to drive across the north German plain. Let me

back up for a moment and say this, a lot is known about the Bridge Too Far"', and about

the attack in Holland, and the defeat that General Montgomery had there. What is not

really known is that General Montgomery kept pestering General Eisenhower'' to do

what he really wanted to do in the Holland Campaign, which was attack across the

Rhine, up the northern angle, right across the German plain into Berlin. He pestered

Eisenhower, and finally Eisenhower gave him a second chance. His second chance

came on March 24, 1945 at Basel, which was about 50 miles south of Amum Right into

the industrial heartland of Germany, the and then right across the north Gennan

plain. Eisenhower gave him the 17"' Airborne Division, which was my airborne

division, as one ofthe two airborne divisions which would be dropped across the Rhine

ahead ofthe Brifish and American forces attacking to go across the north Gemian plain.

Well the operation was unnecessar)' because General Patton'^ and other generals down

south, had already crossed the Rhine further away, but that was not in the industrial

heartland, which Montgomer)' wanted to use to go across the north Gennan plain. But

o«,,U^„. fU-,.. J J ^1.- i^li A... .^;...,, .-,,1 K.r.: 1 ' -.1, ^ . . . j;^i.,^_ j^^

division. In that particular operation, I had something happen to me which was unusual,

I was till a private and just before we went in, an officer came to me and said.

9 A high ranking British General. '" A 1977 movie about the Allied Holland Campaign in World War II as part of Operation Market-Garden, '' One ofthe highest Ajnerican Generals in World War II and took command of Allied forces before Normandy. Another important American General in World War II Ganison 30

"Kormann you're going in on a glider." And I didn't want go in on a glider, I was a paratrooper. I'd had duel training when I was back in the United States, and also in

England, on gliders, loading and lashing and things like that. They canied the heavy equipment for the airborne division in gliders, they would put a jeep in the glider or they would put a jeep trailer in the glider, or a 75 Millimeter Flowitzer Cannon. So, some ofthe equipment went in. I was told, "Kormann you're going in on a glider." And

I didn't like the idea at all, but I did go in on a glider. In Operation Varsity something like 1,350 gliders went in. Later, something like 178 of those gliders was salvageable afterwards. A glider was meant to crash land and it was made of aluminum tubes with canvas on the outside, here's a picture of one right there (takes out pictures).they were towed behind a C-47 dual propeller airplane, and they had huge wind blasts. When you were in the glider you were bouncing all around and you were happy to see you were cut loose. The glider ratio was about 12 to 1 and you would land, and more than likely you would crash land because there was you were coming down in a field, you weren't landing at an airport. The casualty rate was pretty high, so I felt far more comfortable jumping out of a plane with a parachute where I had some control. Wliereas in a glider, if the glider was hit, that was it, you were gone, because you had no parachute no nothing. Even on the take off for Varsity in France, some 23 gliders just getting off the

did not have enough airplanes for the number gliders they had. So they decided, "What we'll do is tow two gliders on one airplane, and we'll put one on a longer rope than the other so the wings won't hit." As a consequence, you saw many of those gliders go in with double tow, and I went in on double tow. You were in the air in this dumb thing Garrison 31 for two, two and a half, three hours bouncing around up there scared to death that you didn't tie the supplies down properly. I was sitting in a jeep in the glider and if that jeep wasn't tied down tightly and started getting loose and started bouncing around, it would have tore the glider apart. Even in training, when I flew in the gliders, wings would come off I mean, they were very flimsily built. I went in on the glider and I remember it was a long trip. We took of from Chartres, France, and Chartres is famous for its cathedrals and as I said eariier, we were never able to write about where we were and often times we didn't know where we were. When we were assembled in Chartres, we were out in an airfield, and the only thing I could tell was that we were not too far from a town and I could see a cathedral in the distance, but I wasn't quite sure what it v/as, because there are lost of cathedrals in France. The minute we took off in that glider I knew where I was because we took off and the glider went right over top of this cathedral and I looked down and I said, "Holy mackerel! We're in Chartres! That's the

Chartres cathedral!" and the reason I knew it was because I had sUidied it in art class at

Colombia, and I knew what the cathedral looked like. We took off and flew right over the top of tliis cathedral and so help me I could look down and I could almost touch the spires ofthe cathedral. We took off at dawn, and the sun was just coming up, and I'm looking down and there in the fields I see a French farmer with horse plowing the fields iwJtU +U-^ r„.,- -^f+U^ -..,« ^. lU- I U. J --J 1. over and here are four guys sitting in the jeep, all their battle gear on, I was smoking, I don't know why, but I always had a cigar in my mouth, and I'm looking at these tough guys and I said, "Gee whiz men, what a contrast! Here we are going out to kill people and this happy little fanner down there is plowing his fields as peaceful as can be." We Ganison 32

were in that glider for close to three hours just bouncing around, and I was scared to

death that that jeep would come loose. Then as we came over the Rhine, I looked down

and I could see nothing but smoke. General Montgomery had decided to put up a smoke

screen so the ground forces could go across the Rhine. Our boys had put up a lot of

smoke, which made life miserable for the guys in the air because they couldn't see

where they were dropping their paratroops or the guys in the gliders couldn't see where

the were going to land. I knew where we were the minute we came over the Rhine

because you'd hear this, "PING! PONG! POOM! PANG!" and you'd look and you'd

see these flashes of light coming from where the fabric ofthe glider had ripped because

you were getting shrapnel from air bursts and flak. I could see the other glider that was

being towed and it was bouncing around all over the place. Finally, we cut off and

landed, and we came in right over the top a German 88 millimeter artiller>' piece. We

bounced along the ground, and "WHAM!" we went right into a tree, and Uie nose ofthe

glider went up and the jeep went up and was almost at a 45 degree angle. I was semi­

conscious, fell out of glider and was lying on the gi'ound, and the only thing that woke

me up was that I kept getting hit in the face by dirt and things spattering, and I realized

what was happening was that I was being shot at, and the bullets were kicking up dirt in

my face and all around. We got out ofthe glider and we were right on the edge ofthe

I pilots were sort of trapped in the front end of the glider, and they eventually got out i \ alright too, I was beat up a little bit. I had a bloody knee and a bloody head and sttiff

like that, but I was alright. That's how we went in. Ganison 33

LG: What happened after you landed in Germany during Operation Varsity and started your combat?

JK: The first thing was, the corporal we were with told me to, "recon order along this railroad track." When we ran into the woods, there was this single ttacked railroad and I ran in a trench along the railroad and as I was running, I had just stopped to take a breather, and I hear this crashing up above the trench, and I see this guy running out of the woods and I thought, "Uh-oh! Here we go!" I had my sub-machine gun and this guy was running out, and he was dressed just like a Gennan paratrooper. I knew what a

German paratrooper looked like; they had their sharp helmets on and had sort of a smock. And I'm ready to give this guy a burst and he yells out, "Don't shoot you Yank!

Don't shoot!" and it was a British paratrooper. Of all the sttipid things, a British paratrooper looked exactly like a German paratrooper. They had the same kind of outfit on! We at least had big American flags on our shoulder. As a consequence, in Operation

Varsity, there were some fire fights between the Americans and the British. A number of our guys and a number of their guys were killed because of it. I did the recon order and I was going to report to the corporal and say, "I went up as far as where that 88 millimeter gunning place was, but I wasn't about ready to run up ant attack it by myself, because I didn't know how many guys were up there. And I figured we would bring the fellows up and we would attack the gunning place." But, I came back and my guys were gone, and the only thing I could see was out across the field, and I saw some of our guys moving out towards the west across the field, near the jeep. I thought, "That's probably where I should go. That's probably where our division assembly area is." So I Garrison 34

started out across the field, and I got about 100 yards out in the middle ofthe field and

boy did all hell break loose. I dropped into a plowed groove and there were houses and

a road about 200 or 300 yards ahead of me on the far side of the field. And obviously the Germans were in there and they had machine gun placements and these guys were maybe not just zeroing in on me but zeroing in on anyone who was out in the field. I was lying their for I don't know how long, and I wasps in between two gliders and remember looking over and seeing one glider that had obviously taken a direct hit and their were a bunch of our guys lying there dead, and I remember not to far from me maybe 10 feet was a guy who must have been the glider pilot and he was dressed in his what we used to call pinks and greens, which was his dress unifonn. Il was a green blouse with his decorations and stuff and a light color pants, which were standard army officer unifoim. I said, "What the hell is tliis guy wearing his pinks and greens in combat?" Well he figured the air force guys would come back after a mission and go out to the officers club, but this was not that kind of a mission. I remember the thing that was so terrible about him was the whole top of his head was taken right off Just like this (takes finger around the front of his head). It was as clean as if it had just been sawed off. Here's this nice uniform and attire, and his brains spilled out where his ribbons go and all over. It was horrible site. The other guys had been shot up too. So, I

1,.;.,- *I 1- -r 1 . , . » -- ' - ",';,''

I'm ready to get out of there, I hear a B-24 Liberator Bomber going over, and they were re-supplying us and dropping loads. I look over and I see this plane go over, and he was going over at only going of at maybe three or four hundred feet, not very high and

"ZOOM!" he goes by. I could actually see a guy standing near the door pushing out Garrison 35

bundles, and he goes by. I could have been on the ground for maybe ten minutes, maybe

it was longer, I don't know I was scared to death, and in a short while, another one

comes by and there's a guy pushing out bundles, and all ofthe sudden, "BOOM!" I see

black smoke come out ofthe motor just as it's directly over me. And I see this guy fall

out ofthe airplane! And he must have been hit, but he fell out ofthe doggone plane!

The plane went a short distance, maybe half a mile or so down, and there was a

tremendous "BOOM!" and a big yellow and black burst in the woods over there. The big Liberator Bomber had gone down and Ijust said, "Oh my!" and I got up and started running. I should mention that, at one point I had my helmet shot off (chuckles). I stuck my head up to far and "BAM!" and suddenly my helmet came off, and it was about ten feet from me, and at one point I had to crawl over and get the helmet back because I didn't want to be there without a helmet. The helmets used to have a helmet liner and then a steel pot that went over the top of it (cups one hand over his other hands fist) and whatever the bullet was must have hit it right between the liner and the pot and must have gone right around the end of it. It gave me a tenible scar that I still have on the back ofmy head. Anyhow, I went a little further and dropped down again. Fd say I made a dumb decision to try to go across this field. Just as I was there, off to the side, further to the north, I see a whole bunch of guy's come out ofthe woods, h was one of rv..,.,. f..^.*, c :..r_...__ I. - .1-IT - .1 .. :. ,.;,,.,.. and parattoopers hanging all over it. Some guys were hanging on the back; a couple of guys were sitting on the hood and the jeeps going to cross it. I said, "They've got to be crazy!" They came out, and here I am in the field and they come up to me and Ijust got up as they came over and this Major says to me, "What's the matter soldier? You need a Garrison 36 little help?" and I said, "There's a machine gun firing at you over there!" and he said,

"Well they aint firing anymore." So what must have happened is that saw these paratroopers coming out of the woods, there must have been, I don't know, about a hundred of them, and the machine guns just stopped firing. I don't know for what reason but I said "there's a machine gun over there; these guys are firing, and so the

Major said to one of these guys, I don't know whether he was a sergeant or corporal,

"Take a couple of guys, go with this guy and clean that god damn place out," So I went with them, and we moved over anxiously, running and zig-zagging, not knowing what was in those houses. We got over to the house and there was a road and there were three or four farm houses on tliis road. When we got there, there was nothing but spent ammunition. The Germans had evacuated the place and gotten out in a hurr>'. They must have seen this big force coming in and said, "Look, were not going to be able to hold this position. We gotta get out of here." We looked in the first house, the second house... we broke in the door and looked in, went up the stairs and everything, and there was nobody in there. There was nobody there. I got to, and fhese others fellows from the 513"', 3^*^ Battalion started going back to their outfit, and I started trying to find my own, and I was a little bit behind them, and I passed the final farmhouse, and just as I passed the final fannhouse, I heard some noises around it. There was a slapping cellar

^— "•'^'-'^—"•*'—' -"-• •>• •' " " nr :nnKth:;i^, .jui:...J, , some ofthe Germans are still in there. So I stopped and called the others and said to the others, "Hey, come on back! We got some here!" I inched over to the door and lifted up the door and shouted down in German, "[Hender-hokes-sur-fur-or-ast-um]!" "Hands up! Come out right away!" Nothing, there was no response, so I had a grenade on my Garrison 37

belt, I took it off and pulled the pin on it. I should back up. Just before I went on

Operation Varsity, I got a letter from my mother in the final mail call at four o'clock in

the afternoon, saying to me, "Son," among other things, saying "Son, remember that fhe

German boy you are fighting has a mother, just like you. Be merciful. Be merciful" I

thought, "Ma, what do you want me to do? It is either kill or be killed. He'll kill me!" I

was furious, I was absolutely fiirious. It made me really mad. Anyhow, I did get the

letter. I was upset that last night before we were to go on the mission because ofthe

letter. Amway, here I am looking down, so I said (speaks in German), "[Hender-hokes-

sur-fur-or-ast-um] "Come out right away or you will be dead!" And I hear stirring down

there. Finally, up they come, and I am ready to let them have it. "Come on," I ordered

them, and out they came. There was a woman, and another woman with a baby in her

arms, 14 women and children, Ifi had thrown that god damn grenade in there, hell, I

would never have been able to live it down. Boy that for me was almost the

quintessential moment in Varsity. From there we went back and cleaned up other places

and attacked various towns and came up to Munster'"^ and finally cleaned up the Ruhr

. There was a lot of shooting and stuff like that and that is what I think about

Operation Varsity.

ivi>: liow did you feel after Operation Varsity was done?

JK: I didn't know anything about it. I had no idea, basically now, as a military

historian, I know that it was an unnecessary operation. At that time, I did not know

'•^ A small German town. Ganison 38

about it. I know that now, but Operafion Varsity changed the course ofmy life because

right after this operation, right after we got in, I mentioned eariier that this special unit

of personnel called Counter Intelligence Officers, special agents, CIC, right after that I

was called up to headquarters and that got me into the subsequent activities. In other

words, within a few days, I was into CIC and given assignments to go after the Nazi

bigwigs. I can still remember being called up to division headquarters, and I got there

and thought, "Oh, geez, what have I done now? I was in trouble from time to time, and I

did not know why they wanted me up to division headquarters, and this officer said to

me, "I understand you are a college kid and speak Gennan." I said, "Yeah." He said,

"Well, you're a special agent in the CIC. I said, "What's that?" He said, "Get yourself

an officer's trench coat, and we'll get one for you. Take those dumb stripes off your

sleeve." I was a PFC, T' Class. I had one stripe. He said, "Put these two tilings on.

From now on, you're known as Special Agent or Mr." And I got officers' privileges.

And that led lo me getting commissioned an officer and also led to a lot of interesting

activities. And I can still remember this guy saying, "Well, you're a combat

paratrooper." And I said, "Yeah," He said, "You don't mind a little difficult work, do

ya?" And I said, "No." He said, "O.K., we want this fellow. He was a high ranking,

middle ranking, leader, who had been involved in atrocities, and he said, "He's

in fhic prF.Q " 1 \np\roA of l-.,'«^ o«^ v. —V *1..^ .•-— ^^^t- J ' --• • '"' . i .

troops are, and this is behind them in a German area." He said, "yeah, so what." So,

here we, had to go behind enemy lines, another agent had been assigned to go with me,

and it was pretty dangerous stuff at the time, and I was involved in activities and

capturing Gennan officers and Gestapo''' inspectors and individuals like that.

M Hitler's secret police. Garrison 39

LG: Can you describe other combat that you were involved in after Operation Varsity?

JK: No, Operation Varsity pretty much ended, March 24"', when we dropped in, was six weeks before the end of the war The war in Germany ended on May 8*^, and after

Varsity, I was involved in counter intelligence. Basically, one ofthe things I have never been able to pin down, when I was on one of these forays in counterintelligence as a

CIC special agent, anolher agent and I went beyond our last outpost ofthe 194"' Glider

Infantry, south toward Diisseldorf after one of our Nazi bigwigs. As we were going down, about five miles beyond there lines and you were always afraid that we were going to run into Gennan troops, some German units. Ever)'thing was wild in those last days, and we were going down this blacktop road, and, two of us in a Jeep, and we see something coming about a mile or a mile and a half down this road. It was a tank column, and we thought, "Oh my God, were ruiming into a Gemian Panzer unit." So we pulled off the road and got dowii in a gully or depressing along the side ofthe road, and after a while, I said "hey, in the front of that column, that looks like a Jeep!" So, we waited a little bit longer and sure enough, it was a bunch of Americans. We pulled our

Jeen out from this «;ort nf cnillv whprp w/p hc*A UPP^^ ii;/ii*r.rT o.iri fi>-«..^ u^^i- *- ^i-- road with me standing and him driving, and me going like this (waves his hands from side to side over his head) waving my arms, and, by golly, the outfit we ran into was the

13^ Armored Division, The 13"' Armored Division was attacking from the south to close the , and I came up to the lead vehicle, and there was a captain. He said, "What are you guys doing here?" I said, "We're from an intelligence outfit ofthe Garrison 40

17"" Airborne Division," He said, "Well, were the 13"" Armored, and we're attacking

North." And I have never been able to pinpoint this, but I think that this group may have

been one ofthe reasons we were able to close the Ruhr pocket and trap 325,000 German

troops. So, I learned after the war, that had I known that a good buddy of mine—my

best man at my wedding—was a tanker in fhat 13* Armored Division. I did not know it

at the time; had I, I would have looked for him, but I have always wondered whether we

were with the guys who eventually closed the Ruhr pocket. I know elsewhere, when you

read it in books, there are, some other infantry division is given the credit for doing it,

but I'll bet that along that part of the Rhine River, that side of the pocket, we were

probably the guys who closed it.

LG: Can you compare your experiences in Operation Varsit)' with other battles in

which you fought?

JK: No, because that is pretty much it. The war ended. The war ended while I was in

CIC there. In other words, the war ended six weeks after we dropped in.

LG: How did you feel at the end of the war when you found out that World War Two had ended? Garrison 41

JK: World War Two ended in August. After the war ended in Germany on May 8"^, our

division was so badly shot up that, rather than trying to reconstitute it and send it to

Japan as they did the lOT' Airborne, they figured it just isn't worth trying to rebuild it,

and they simply split us up, which made our division commander very sad and all the

rest of us very sad because we were a good fighting division. A lot of us went to the

lOr' Airborne Division, which was on route to Japan when the war ended, and a good many other ones were assigned to the 82"^^ Airborne Division, which was going to go up to Berlin as the Occupation Division in Gennany. Probably because ofmy German and everything else, I was scheduled to go with the 82"^ Airborne to Berlin. I later ended up as a filed officer commander in CIC in Berlin. So they kept me active. So, when you say, "how did I feel when the war ended," I was in Berlin al the time, and I learned that

CIC, the special agents of CIC, wliile it was very nice to be in the outfit and get commissioned, I was declared "essential" and when the 82"'' Airbonie Division went home, I was kept for two years aftenvards, They needed us badly, and we were specialized, highly specialized troops, and that's how 1 ended up as a field officer in

Berlin. Perhaps that period in my memoirs, there were more wild things that happened, because I was involved in going after high-ranking Nazi. I went after Martin Bonnann,

Hitler's staff aide, I was involved in all escapades with the Russians, with the Russian

LG: Can you elaborate on that? Garrison 42

JK: Berlin at that time was a quadra-partied city right in the beginning. In other words, the four powers, France, England, Russia and the Untied States, had occupation sectors in Beriin, and the CIC was responsible for providing security, in other words, counter espionage, and counter sabotage. I was a field officer commander of a sector in Berlin.

Perhaps one ofmy most interesting experiences, when I was called up to headquarters in 1946. Everybody pretty much agreed that Hitler had committed suicide and died at the bunker in his headquarters. Martin Bonnan, Hitler's deputy they could not account for. They thought he might have escaped, and, subsequently, a lot of people thought that he had escaped lo Argentina. Well, I was called up to headquarters one day in early

1946, I don't remember exactly when it was, and I was told, "Look, we have had informafion that Martin Borman has been hiding out in the subtenanean passages under

Hitler's headquarters, the capitol building." They had a whole virtual city under there, and he had been spotted down there. "And we want you to go down there, put on some dirty old German clothes, and go down there and live down there and see what you can find out." I went down there, with nothing more than a snub-nosed .38 pistol in dirty old German clothes. I had a contact man who would come to see me from time lo fime, once or twice a day, and I would tell him what was happening.

[Break- Tape ended]

PMT^ OP T A PP r^-hTC- orrr^rKT T A or? o

In those passages, it's like walking around in the tubes in the subway. Let's say fiiey took all the trains out and you'd be wandering about. At one point I came to this area, and there was a heavy iron grill that was set into the cement parts ofthe wall. There was no way of getting through, and I figured what the heck, I'd just stay down there. After Garrison 43 all, I'd heard voices, and I'd thought, this is an unknown area, I wonder if this is the area where he is. If he's down here, I wanl to get him. So I came out lo my contact guy, and I said this maybe where he's at. And he went back, and the word from headquarters was that we are going to make a sweep with a company or two from the 16*, and we're going to go down and sweep through fhe area, right about the area where Borman is supposed to be. So they came in from the other side and got to where the passage was.

All they did was rout out a lof of German refuges and not Martin Borman. He had probably gotten over the border somewhere. But while I was, in all that nibble, I found a plaque, oh, fifteen inches about ten. It was a dedication plaque; it was a commemorative plaque for the erection of Hitler's headquarters in January, 1939. This is a picture of the thing (shows black and white photograph), and it's got fhe bust of

Hitler with the Nazi eagle, and it says "Dedicated to the workers..." and I thought that would be a heck ofa souvenir, and I kept that souvenir for years. Later, when I was in the Foreign Service around 1953-54,1 felt guilty about it when I was stationed in Bonn, and I mentioned it to members ofthe Gennan foreign office that I had this plaque. They thought il was. I told them maybe the German government wanted to have it. They didn'l want any part of it! Anything that had to do with the Nazi, they did not wanl to have any part ofil. So, I kept il. Subsequently, that, and a piece ofthe red marble from

TT:-.I...>-I..,-!-,.rt-„ ,.:hl:-h 1 \^--\r^/:n-'' _ ' ^ vl" N'^. "

So, I gave to the Franklin Roosevelt Museum up in Hyde Park, NY, and it's up in Hyde

Park now. Getting back to my experiences in Berlin. Well, we rounded up a lot ofthe

Nazis, because Berlin was a place where a lol of them, particulariy those who had been concentration camp guards, would come from the East, from Russia and Poland, So we

French royal palace outside of Paris. Ganison 44

made a lot of arrests and sent them down to Nuremburg for trials, and within a

relafively short period of time, I say, within a relafively short period of time, our entire

mission changed. First, the firsl feeling of the Cold War, because we'd been

experienced with Soviet espionage, and there were strong efforts by the Communisls to

take over Berlin, and I had been involved in a lot of aetivifies related to he Soviet

espionage, I got involved in some things. And in one case, which I mention in my

memoirs, for example, I created an international incident. The Soviet MKBD, which

was the forerunner of the KGB, the Soviet secret police, were attempting to kidnap a

German scientist, this was in 1946, and I was sitting in my office in the evening, and the

agents I had working for me had already gone home. The only person still in the office

was a not my American secretary but my German secretary, who came in and said to

me that there was a woman on the phone who was hysterical, that she was saying

something about her husband being kidnapped. So I picked up the phone and I talked to

the woman, and she said the Soviet secret police were there, and "they're dragging my

husband off," and I said, "Where are you?" She was located about eight blocks from my headquarters. 1 was in charge of an area that had almost 300,000 people in it. It was the most populated area of Berlin, the American Sector. The only thing that I had for company was a dog, a dog that had been given me by the German police, a magnificent nnliV-^ Ann WUi^h J U^A A....:..- -f:-,- ^;.v..- : " '" '.•-'•[,-•!• -,:...;,...,,.'..' ...^ everywhere, and this dog and I jumped in a Jeep and we drove over lo this place, and sure enough, there was this apartment building, and we heard all of this ruckus and stuff, and we heard all of these guys yelling, and stuff I got there, and there were two

Soviet agents, and you could tell them, cause they wore dark suits, dark business suits. Ganison 45

They were with an East German policeman, who they were trying to drag out of the

place. I yelled, "Stop, stop, I'm American CIC, security police. What's going on here?

This is the American Sector of Beriin. What are you doing?" And they said, "This guy's

a deserter!" But the Gennan started yelling to me in German, "I'm a scientist. I have

dual citizenship. I have Swiss citizenship and German citizenship. I'm a scientist." I

said to a ttanslalor that the Russians had, "Look, this is the American sector of Berlin,

and I'm in charge here, and we're going back to the four power police stafion—we has

Quadra parlied police quarters, and were going to settle this there." I took the guy with

me in my Jeep and drove back. We got back there about 8:00 p.m., and I said to the

American desk sergeant, we had two desk sergeants, American and Soviet "put him in a cell." We had a jail down in the basement. The first floor was a military police stafion, the second floor was a CIC office, and the third floor was a military government. I said,

"Put him in the pokey, and we'll straighten this thing out in the morning. So they locked liim up in the jail, and I went home, back to my quarters in the CIC compound.

The following morning, we started work at 7:00 a.m. I wenl back there, and the street was just jammed with people, Soviet trucks all over the place, Gennans standing around, Russian troops, forty or fifty of them, in front ofmy office building. I go into the building, and I say to the desk sergeant, "What's going on?" He says, "They're

to take this guy out. I yelled, "Stop! Slop!" but they just pushed me aside. I said, "You can't take him. This is the American Sector!" But they weren't paying any attention lo me and were just dragging this guy off They had all these troops and trucks and ever)'thing else, and jusl as they gel him to the door, I hear this (makes loud, high Garrison 46 pitched siren sound) siren, and the MPs had an M20 armored car, wliich sort of looks like, you know, what they're using in Iraq now, and it had a cannon on the front ofthe thing. We had a series of steps going up to our office building, and the armored car drives up over the sidewalk and puts it two front wheels on the second steps and points it cannon right at the door. Around the corner comes running about fifty of our MPs.

There was a big confrontation. We had more soldiers. We had the annored car with the cannon right in the door. I jusl said, "You put that prisoner back in the cell. This is going to be settled by the Allied Joint Command!" So they backed off The Russian office probably would have been shot by the Soviet high command if he had started something. So, that was it. We put the prisoner back, and, but in the meantime, for the

Germans, this was a big confrontation between American troops and Russian troops, and the word got up to our Berlin headquarters and to the Allied Commander for all of

Germany. The sittiation internationally was such that we were about to have some kind ofa big mefing in Moscow ofthe foreign ministers, and the last thing you wanted was some kind ofa big incident. So I gol a call from headquarters telling me to put a lid of this incident and not to say anything. They said our relations with the Russians are tough enough. "Cool it!" they ordered. Well, shortly thereafter, I'm in my office, and my secretary comes in and says there is an American reporter outside, and in comes this cute lonkinp littlp hInnHp *ihp intrrti-Iin^oo 1IO.T.O1^ OM^ r-^..^ u^.- .'- >*--:_..: -

Higgins. She was already famous for her war reporting and was know as someone who would go to all ends to get her story, She was sort of the girlfriend of generals and all that kind of stuff Anyway, so I said "I'm sony, I can't tell you an)1hing. If you wanl lo find out anything you've got to go to Berlin command headquarters, the general will Garrison 47

talk to you up there." So, that was it. She was not about to get her story. She had talked

to everyone, the Germans, the Russians, the MPs, but not to me, so she did not get what

she needed. The next day, The International Herald Tribune out of Paris had a big

headline; "Yanks and Soviets clash in Berlin!" I have a copy of The Detroit Examiner newspaper that had the same headline. Well, this was fhe last thing that the United

States Government wanted. I got a call from Beriin headquarters, saying "Kormaim,

you get your ass up here! You are in deep trouble! The last thing our govemment needed was an incident like this." So I went up to headquarters, knowing I was going to get chewed out by the commanding general. I'm sitting there waiting for him, cooling my heels. At one point his aide came out. I was sitting on a bench right outside of the general's office and had been there for about twenty or thirty minutes. So 1 said to the aide "Why does the general want to see me? I didn't say anything to Higgins, and, besides, 1 saved the scientist. I ought to be getting a medal and not be chewed oul by the general. The general must have heard my own version. Within a few minutes, the aide comes back out and says, "The general doesn't have any time for you and doesn't want to see you anymore. Just get out of here." And that was the end of that. But, Maijorie

Higgins, look at this (shows U.S. postal stamp). It's a commemorative stamp for

Marjorie Higgins that came out last year. She was honored by a stamp for woinen in journalism, but that'.*; th^ pal that'': \hp onp +hof rot^ tu^ ..t^^. +u„* „i...--* 4 ,,, intemational incident.

LG: During World War Two, how did you feel about opposition lo the War from people back in the United States? Ganison 48

JK: There wasn't any. It was a totally different situation. Everybody was part ofthe war effort, everybody was working, and there wasn't a family that didn'l have a son or a daughter even, who in those days, they were just starting to let in the service. As a young paratrooper down south, I was station at Camp Forest, Tennessee. We rarely got passes for the weekend, but when I did get a pass on a weekend, usually once a month, I could walk on to a highway and no car would ever pass me by. If I stood there and thumbed a ride, everybody would stop. It was inconceivable to go by an American soldier who wanted a ride. I hitchhiked all over the place, and always gol a ride. On

Sunday mornings you'd go to church. Normally, you'd get Sunday off—well maybe you wouldn't—no, no you would usually have Sunday off, and I would make a point of going to church, because you knew you would always gel a wonderful dinner, people would take care of you. Back then, if a soldier came into Chevy Chase Methodist

Church and sat down. Ten people would invite him for dinner, or for lunch, or this or that. It was just inconceivable that you didn'l do that. And it often was nice because I would accept the invitation, and there was often a pretty daughter at home (Laughs). It was just something that was done. The whole counlry, the whole country participated.

That's not the way it is today, we have a mercenar)' army loday, a few of our fellas are

Kor-;«« tUr, „,U^1^ u * -.-J 1-- J- -1-- :- ,^-.5,-.,-, .-,,,( , •• • 1 1 ' .- •••J : ••••^ "-o

Christmas presents exchanged, ft wasn't that way, il was lough. Everybody, everybody participated! Garrison 49

LG: Historian Howard Zinn crificizes World War II being called a "people's war"

when he ask the quesfion, "Would the behavior of the United States during the war—in

military action abroad, in treatment of minorities at home—be in keeping with a

'people's war'?" How does tliis make you feel?

JK: We did things, we did things, of course we rounded up Japanese on the West Coast and kept them in, I don't like to use the word concentration camps, because it wasn't the same, but we did collectivize them and kept them in camps. Which was wrong, whicii was wrong, and America has admitted that it was the wrong thing to do. And of course the thing that drove it home more than anything else was they did have a Japanese regiment, you know, the Nisei Regiment, which was the most highly decorated regiment in the U.S army at the end of World War Two. Those guys fought magnificently. The collectivization was a big mistake, but under the aura of war, you know, people do things. It was a mistake, it was a mistake.

LG: You met World War Two historian Stephen Ambrose can you tell me about that?

JK: I met him at the Nation Archives, oh aboul tow, three years ago, maybe. 1 can't

of Linden Jolmson or of Eisenhower, I've been down there a nuniber of times. He was at this particular session, and I talked to him and told him I was wilh the 17"* and 82'"* airborne divisions in World War Two, and I mentioned to him Operation Varsity. It Ganison 50

must have been after he wrote Cifizen Soldiers"". Most historians tend to pass off

Operation varsity as a quote "cake walk" because it was at the end of the war. And I

said to hun, "You really ought to take a look at what happened there because the

casuahies there were higher than at Tarawa'^" He looked at me, and I don't remember

exacfiy what his reaction was, but he was kind of surprised. When you ask the Marines

about tenible World War Two battles, I mean really horrible battles, they will cite the

capttu-e of the island of Tarawa, where the 2"** Marine Division went in with 20,000

men, and over the course of three days lost, I'm not quite sure, I think 894 men and

thousands wounded, over the course of three days. And I said to Ambrose, "In

Operation Varsity, 17,500 British and Americans troops wenl in, they had lost 1,070

men within a little over twelve hours of combat, and around three or four thousand more

were killed total. Yet everybody says it was a cake walk, Sometliing's wrong here." I

didn't have too much ofa chance to pursue it with him because, you know, there were

other people around, but I made the point.

LG: How did going into battle change you?

JK: When you read my memoirs, I did a lot of things as a youngster, you grew up a lot

inch kid's bike. Now, where can you do that now? I went right up roule 1 all the way up

to and back. I did 1,200 in a couple of weeks, just riding a bike by myself,

'^ One of historian Stephen E. Ambrose's books about World War JI. Ambrose, Stephen E. Citizen Soldiers, New York: Simon & Schuster, 1998. '^ Battle of Tarawa was fought in the Pacific Ocean near the Island of Tarawa, between American and Japanese forces on November 20 to November 23, 1943. It is known as one ofthe bloodiest battles in World War II. Ganison 51

staying in what they called the American Youth Hostels that they used to have. Back in

the 30's they had places that farmers would make extra money by taking in these guys

riding bikes and traveling, and for 25 cents they provided a place for you to sleep and

for an extra 15 or 20 cents you got your breakfast. So, I was supposed to go with

another kid, who backed out, but I went by myself up to Canada and back on a kid's

bike. And at age 16 I went down to South America. I had an argument with my father

after I graduated from high school. When I graduated, I gol a medal for playing basketball and sisters got medal for academics. So my father said to my mother al one point that, "I didn't send him to school to play basketball he should have been studying" and blah blah blah. And I heard him so I said, "you don't have to pay lo send me to college, I'll pay for myself if I have to." And the next thing I did was I went down to the docks in New York and signed on a Swedish ship going to the Caribbean and South

America. Kids today, you know, you don'l that kind of stuff I had several jobs before I went to college. I worked on Wall Street, I worked for a jeweler for a period of time, I worked for Lord and Taylor, and I had a lot of odd-jobs before going to college, and I paid for my first semester, before 1 went in the war. I paid with my own money. And kids don't do that kind of stuff today (chuckles). You giew up earlier

•» .r~i TT

JK: When I was at Colombia, I paid for my own freshmen year, with my own money, and I still goofed around. I had two failing courses, the only thing I got an "A" in was athletics, because I was wrestling. When I came back afler the war, I was an "A" Garrison 52 student, I went though Colombia, and I had managed only to get one semester credit at

Colombia. I was given a certain amount of credits for my military experience by

Colombia, when I cam back. Once I came back, I had three and a half years to go. I finished up that plus masters. I went back to school in September of 1947 and finished in August of 1950. I had finished all my college, got my masters degree, and did the better part of one year for a PhD. So I finished college in a year and a half, and it was totally different, I was faking 30 or 40 credits, instead of 15 credits a semester. One of the things Colombia did was, for each "A" you got, they gave you an extra credit. So 1 had "A's" all over the place and I was getting extra credits. I went though school like a shot, because at that fime I left at 18 and came back at 23. I was an old man. I had commanded guys I'd been a field officer commander in Berlin, I'd locked guys up.

When you come back, you're just a totally different person.

LG: What is your best niemorj' of your militaiy service?

JK: Meeting my wife, I met her in Berlin. Her father was the deputy director of civil adminislrafion for Gerinany, and was high ranking officer She was a 17 year old girl, and I mel her in the officers club one night in 1946, took one look at her and said, "This

LG: How do you stay in touch with soldiers you served with in World War Two? Garrison 53

JK: I didn't, I didn't. 1 didn't stay in touch wilh them at all, and in 1994, fifb^* years later, I just happen to come across newspaper with an article about the 17^ Airborne

Division Association having a meefing, a reunion. I said, "That's great! How about fhat!" and they had an address ofthe guy who was the executive secretary who lived up in Connecticut, So I called him up and said, "I'd been a member ofthe 17"' airborne and

I wanted to know about where they were meefing." And he said, "Oh! In a couple of weeks you're company, not your whole division, just your company is having a reunion up in Buriington, Vemionl." So I got in contact with the guy who was organizing the whole thing, and the minute I showed up fhere everybody said, "Kormann, where have you been!? We've been looking for you for fifty years!"

LG: What is your single worst memory of your military service?

JK: The worst memory I have is when I was a CIC agent in the Ruhi-. After Varsity there was a big concern in Germany right as the war was winding down that we would have an insurgency, like the kind of thing we have in Iraq right now. There was a

German organization called the "Werewolves" that was being fonned to carry on the fight. The Nazis were not going to give up, they were going to carry on the fight. They

on the war, there was great concern from the American miiitar)^ about this. One day in

April, this man cam into oul little office where we were staying and said he, "knew where an arms cache was that had been buried by the Nazis." So our commanding officer said, "O.K. Kormann, go out with this guy and take another agent wilh you to Ganison 54

investigate the cache." And our lines had not been established at that point, this was

again, where we had to move out to the area past were we had control, where the

Gemians, sporadically, had control over. And we went out about 5 miles beyond the

town of Duesburg'^, We went out in a field, bounded by woods, and the gentlemen who

took us out there said, "I didn't dare go out there. I saw all these soldiers and Nazis, in

uniform, but I didn't dare go near them, because I was afraid that if the spotted me, I

would have been in trouble. But I saw them burying this stuff" He showed me where

they'd been and we went out there with our shovels and stuff and we started digging.

We gol down maybe six eight s or so and the other agent said, "Chief, what the heck is

this?" and he keeps digging. And it's an ann. So, we keep digging some more and

instead of having a cache of arms, we had a mass grave, and we started pulling up

bodies. So we went back and I said, "That's a mass grave out there!" So we started to

check around to see what was going on out there, and we got hold of die German police

and asked, "Wliat's going on? Whal is that out there?" We found out that the Nazis,

three months earlier had executed a lot of their foreign workers. I was still just a private

at the time, even though I was in the CIC, and had an officer's uniform and things like

that. So our overall commander said, "Komiann, you and a couple of agents round up

the guys we have in the pokey and take them down there and dig 'em up. Give them a

out with members of our division, the 194"' , and the Gennans started

digging the bodies up, so there were bodies all over the place. The first day we were out

there in April, it was a cool day. Well, by the time we got this thing organized, it was a

week or two later and it turned warm and it had gone into May, So we were having a

18 A small German town. Garrison 55

tenible time tr)'ing to digging the bodies up and taking them out, especially when they

were decomposed. It was just awful. This other sergeant for the 194"' came up to me and said, "Sir, this guy over there doesn't want lo dig." And fhere was a man standing up there, he was maybe fifty or sixty years old whit goatee and moustache and I knew whop he was. He was the police president the overall guy in charge ofthe police for the area. He was the guy who had signed the orders for the executions. So I went up to him and I said, "Get in the hole and start digging. You're responsible for this and it's your responsibility more than anyone else." He said, (speaks in German) "[knee-mouts]!" "I never will!" and I said, "you get in there and start digging!" and he said "I never will!" and I said (gestures pulling out a gun), "You gel into that hole and start digging!" And I looked at him and said, "Get into that hole!" (acts like he is cocking a gun and makes the sound ofa gun cocking), an I aimed at him and he suddenly collapsed and started shaking all over and jumping and he jumped right into the hole and started digging. We later took some of those bodies oul and buried them in the town square with a big sign that said, "This is what the Nazis did." That was probably the most bonifying moment in my life.

LG: As a veteran how do you fell aboul the cunent war in Iraq?

JK: You're asking me the wrong question (chuckles). Oh, I spent a lot of time in the

Middle East as a diplomat, and I was fully aware of the problems the British had in

Mesopotamia which is where Iraq now is. They lost 30,000 men there in the I920's. If Garrison 56

you ever go see the movie Lawrence of Arabia'^ and see The Conference ofthe Arabs

in Damascus at the end of the war where everybody was trying to decide what to do at

the end ofthe war. Oh, nobody could come to any kind of agreement. My feeling was,

when I heard we were going into Iraq, friends, you have no idea what you're getting

info. You don't know what you're doing. Lord help them, for they know not what

they're do. I expected, and I said this any number of times—I'm one ofthe guys who

signed the letter to the president, saying don't do tliis, that it is sheer stupidif)' on our

part. You can so, "Oh, we had to do this cause of Saddam and weapons of mass

destruction," but, in my own mind, nothing justifies what we have done. We are getting

our guys killed for what? We're going to democratize Iraq? You've got to realize that

Americans take it for granted that everybody wants exactly what we want. They don't!

They don't. I heard a perfect example of what we want and they don't^the

differences, a while back. An American professor came back out of Lebanon. She was

there at the American University in Beirut, teaching Arab students, teaching English,

and American literature course and was using Henry Thoreau's^*^ Walden, which talks

about Thoreau being in the woods as the self-reliant American. Americans tend to

idolize their rugged individualism—the man on the Plains, who can survive, who lives

by himself. Well, she had her Arab students reading Walden and, halfway through, she

.v,o^« fU.^ «.,;^4„l- r„„i-:.,~ i— ^^.j,... «TTn.

she got was, "How could anyone be so honible? Who was taking care of his aged

parents? Who was marrying his brother's widow? Who was taking care of the

children?" They thought what we considered an ideal American, a rugged individualist

'^ A movie about a British soldier in the Middle East Lawrence of Arabia. Dir. David Lean. 1962. ^^ Henry David Thoreau, 19"* Century American romantic poet who wrote abut man's relationship to Nature. Garrison 57 was a person who would be cursed by Allah for not having done his duty to his family.

This was a totally different approach. They place their religion foremost n their lives.

They place security highly in their lives. They place women highly in their lives. We say, "Oh, it's tenible cause they keep the women in; they're never allowed out. They can't do this; they can't do that." Agreed, by our standards, yes, but you've go to figure that the woman in their economy is vitally important. The woman is often the source of a family's mobility. Her being able to marry into different tribes, into different social statuses, etc., is of utmost importance. Il as important to the Arab as money is to

Americans, If an Arab come over and said to us, for example, "Forget about money.

You don't need any money. Give il all away!" The average American would say, "Oh, that's fine, bul what do I do? How do I live?" This is in many ways whal we are trying to do to the Arabs. The Arabs are going to have to change if were going to have true democracy in the Arab countries. They're going to have to change this themselves. The

Aiabs are going to have to change their social structure; il's going to have lo come from within. We can't superimpose this on them. This is what we don't realize. Americans are so imbued with their own idealism. They don't speak foreign languages. They really don't travel, except as tourist. They know very little about foreign countries, and this is our undoing. It's certainly our undoing when we go into Iraq. So, I feel sony for rt,,f rr.,,.^ +t,«^-^, T -—n.. J^ r^..^ -i-..!-- ,"1-:.--- r /*--1 •* i i i •• .1,,,, ,.:*•: . is a professional military. Our military should be a citizen mililary. We are citizen soldiers. George Washington said that every American has an obligation to give not only his taxes, his money to the government but also his service in defense of il. I feel that we ought lo have a draft. Obviously, we can't draft eveiyone, but, in the beginning Garrison 58 of World War I, we didn't draft everyone either. We had a lottery. The rich kids were just as liable, suseepfible of going into the military as the poor ones. Today, the rich kids go off, and who's in our service today? Hispanics. Blacks and the patriofic poor, and that's wrong. That's absolutely wrong. And I fell this very strongly. That's why both of my sons served in the military. One's a West Pointer, and the other's a reservist. It's wrong; it's absolutely wrong. See our people running around here having

Christmas, and the rest ofthe poor guys over in Iraq, is wrong.

LT: As a veteran, how do you feel about criticism of our troops in Iraq?

JK: Criticism of our troops in Iraq? I don't like hearing criticism of our troops. I don't like it. One ofthe things I expect is that there always going to be guys in the military who are going to do things that shouldn't be done. I mean I ran into a situation where I was taking prisoners back, and the guy who I was wilh wanted to shoot them. I said,

"No! Why would you do that? I'll be there when your court marshaled for violating the

Geneva Convention, and I'll testify against you." He did not like what I said to him, but that was fhe end of that. But you're going to get guys who do terrible things, like with the prison abuse in Iraq. The stupidity of these people. I saw a lot of this kind of stuff

parts of fife.

LG: What effect has serving in World War II had on your life? Ganison 59

JK: It changed me. Completely changed me. I met my wife; I finished college. I got

my master's degree. You know one of the greatest things that happened to me (long

pause as Kormann recalls an emotional memory) was I got a telephone call one day.

So, I 'm sorry; I break up a little when I think aboul this. When I was with the l?""

Airborne Division, I was just a wild kid. I was a guard house lawyer I got in trouble. I

was a tough, tough kid, I got a call about a year and a half ago from the members ofthe

17"' Air Corps, the guys creating our monument, a beautiful monument, down in Ft,

Benning, Georgia, to our killed and wounded. The guys said to me, "Kormann, we're dedicating the monument, having a big ceremony, and we want you to come down and give the dedication address." (pause) I said, "Well, why me? Get the Cliief of Staff of the Army or someone else." (pause) They guy said, (long pause) "We want one of our own." (Pause) God, I was honored. I was really honored, (pause) I am sony; this is tough; it's really tough when I think about it.

LG: Is there anything else you would like to say or talk about that we didn't get to?

JK: I told you how I feel about the responsibility of our citizens to defend our country.

It's a pity, a pity fhat we have today what is essentially a mercenar)' army. It a

ver>' Strongly that every citizen has an obligation to ser\'e. It changes the lives of everyone who serves; it really does. You can tell a young guy who go through college and puts his time in the military is a different guy. He really is. He serves, and it does something to him. It really does. I'm proud of having served as a reserve officer for Ganison 60

37-plus years. I really am. You feel you've done your duly. You've done what you're supposed to do as a cifizen. In a sense I feel sorry for individuals who have not had that experience. That's all I have to say,

LG: That is all ofthe questions that I have. Thank you very much for your time. Garrison 61

Oral Historv Intei'view Analvsis

When asked, "What effect did World War II have on your life?" John Kormami, a

World War U American Army veteran, responded, "It changed me. Completely changed me" (Garrison 42). Just as it affected Jolm Kormann, World War II changed the lives of generations of people worldwide. Because there are so many stories from the individuals who were touched by World War II, it is importanl to preser\'e the personal recollections of as many of these people as possible. The stories of battle tested veterans are especially meaningful as they provide insight into the experiences of soldiers at war. Perhaps the best way to collect these stories is though oral history. Oral histor)' provides the perspective of an event that is not normally contained in common history resources, and oral histor)' gives the historian a first hand account of an event or period of lime. Also, oral histor)' allows the average person to connect with an historical person and, thus, better understand an historical event. For example, if someone reads in a textbook that twenty thousand people died in a battle, it just feels like a number, but, if the historian hears about the battle first hand, he comiects with the battle on a more personal and emotional level. This makes fhe battle more meaningful than just an objective fact. Just like any history method, oral history has its problems. Oral history is very biased, because the historian is only obtaining one person's perspective of an event. Wliether the inten'iewee intends to or not, his point of view shapes his story and what he says aboul an event. Also, someone's opinions could have changed from the time ofthe event to time ofthe interview. Although oral history is biased, it is important to have people's stories to compare and contrast with more standard history methods. Therefore, the inter\'iew with Garrison 62

John G. Kormann, for the most part, reinforces what is known about Operation Varsity, part ofthe Allies' invasion of Gennany in World War Two.

John Kormann describes his experiences in World War 11 in a very descriptive manner that makes it easy to understand and relate to his stories on a personal basis. Not only does John Kormami give his emotional personal stories, but he combines them with important facts, making the interview much more interesling, because it was factual as well as engrossing. For example, when Mr Kormann discusses the take off of Operation

Varsity from Chartres, France, he provides the basic informafion, but he blends il with a story that relates to his experience outside ofthe war, "the glider wenl right over top... and I said, T-Ioly mackerel! We're in Chartres! That's the Chartres cathedral!' and the reason I knew il was because I had studied it in art class at Colombia" (Ganison 15).

John Kormann combines facts and stories to provide an accurate representation of what he saw happen in an interesting way, which makes the interview more relatable than a dry text book recitation of facts and details.

Another powerful discussion came when Mr. Konnann recalled one of his besl memories of World War II and his life. Mr. Kormann was asked lo dedicate a monument, in Georgia, for the 17"' Airborne Division. When Mr. Konnann was asked several years ago, by a fellow 17"' airborne veteran, to give the dedication speech for the monument,

-*•'•- -^^ •:%.-.no •-'•-'^ -•'^ <-''-•• •-•• ''••.-::•, "^ ^ :'1'.. ^.-'.^.-CC'^^ll .^^ ^^ -- someone else" (Ganison 43). Mr. Kormann, who grew quite emotional, recalled that the man said, "We wanl one of our own" (Garrison 43), Reflecting on that moment, Mr,

Komiann said, "God, I was honored. I was really honored" (Ganison 43). During the telling ofthe story, Mr. Kormann was moved by his recollections, and he often had lo Ganison 63

pause to regain his composure. It is this type of raw emotion and experience fhat only

oral history can provide,

John Konnann's experiences support what is known about Operation Varsity. For

example, it's commonly accepted that Operation Varsity was unnecessary. This idea is

illustrated in Patrick K O' Donnell's novel, Beyond Valor, when he writes, "Varsity

appeared to be a huge success... But historians... question whether the airborne operation

was worth the cosf' (O'Donnell 311). In The Secret War Against Hifier, author William

Casey writes, " Although we had snatched the bridge on March 7, the big effort

across the Rhine was still to be made, and Monty[ Montgomeiy] was preparing in his

massive way"(Casey 197). Both of these excerpts emphasize the idea that Operation

Varsity was not essential to the invasion of Germany. John Konnann reinforces this idea

in the interview. He says that, "...the operation vas unnecessary because General Patton

and other generals down south had already crossed the Rhine further away, but that was

not in the industrial heartland whicii Montgomery wanted to use lo go across the North

German plain"(Garrison 13). The similarities between historians and Mr. Konnann are

important because they demonstrate the proper interpretation of Operation Varsit)' and

put it into militar)' perspective. However, it is important to remember that just because

Operation Varsity was not essential; it was still a great success and facilitated the end of

Although the interview of Mr. Konnann reinforces histor)', in some instances, the interview conflicts with a common conception of Operation Varsit)'. World War II

historian Stephen E. Ambrose and other historians often overlook or ignore what took

place during Operation Varsit)'. John Kormaim slates that, "Most historians tend lo pass Garrison 64 off Operation Varsity as a quote 'cakewalk' because it was at the end ofthe war"

(Ganison 34). However, because ofthe casualties the Allies suffered, this is not the case.

For example. In his book. The Victors, Stephen Ambrose writes, "By the firsl week of spring 1945, Eisenhower's annies had done what he had been planning for...

Montgomer)''s elaborate crossing ofthe Rhine... featuring the largest airdrop in the history of war, had been successftil" (Ambrose 329). Although Ambrose is eonect that

Operafion Varsity was successftil, he does not include anything about the 17^ Airbome

Division and the 6'*' British Airbome Division losses during the operalion. Contrary to the opinions of historians, such as Ambrose, Operation Varsity was anything but a

"cakewalk." In the first twelve hours of Operation Varsity, the Allies lost 1,070 troops, and in the whole battle, 6,292 British and American troops were killed and wounded. The difference belween John Kormann's opinion and Ambrose's is the only contradicfion between what Mr. Kormami said and what is commonly perceived.

John Kormann had the chance to meet Stephen Ambrose and to discuss the reality of Operation Varsity with him. When Mr. Komiann met Ambrose, he said to him, "In

Operafion Varsity... the British and Americans had lost 1,070 men within... twelve hours of combat, and around three or four thousand more were killed total. Yet everybody says it was a cake walk" (Ganison 34). This shows that oral histor)' can provide useftil

•f.fr.r-.-'.i'.r.r. t,-. , n-.-if v; i.'nrifr;iili;.-f nfTi-- h::.:oric::T niCthuJL.j ..J,.! ;;.. ^^^j.^. IL.^ ^^ both, can provide for a complete and unbiased recording of history.

Although Operation Varsity was a crucial event in World War II, il is not very well known. As a result, a historian conducting research into key battles of World War

Two might overlook Operation Varsity This made the inten'iew more significant, Garrison 65 because it gave the interpretation ofa soldier in a battle, which might nomially be overlooked. It is important to have the experiences ofa soldier in Operation Varsity, because Operafion Varsity was the largest airbome assault in all of World War II. With

6,292 troops killed and injured, Varsity was also, "The worst day the whole allied airborne had in World War II" (Ganison 12). This interview is historically significant because Operafion Varsity marked the start to the end ofthe war in Europe, Also, if

Operafion Varsity is overlooked because it is considered unnecessary, whaf happened during it might never be fully recorded and, eventually, the story battle would become a mere footnote, despite the large number of casuahies..

I enjoyed doing the interview because I was able to use my people skills lo gel

Mr. Konnann to probe his memories, experiences and feelings. The interview required me to think on my feet and have a relationship with the interviewee, so I could get a better interview. However, I feel that I did nol ask the questions with enough fluiditys o the interview could be more of a conversation than an interview. I believe that the questions I asked were good. However, I think that the interview became too political near its conclusion, taking away from the primary focus ofthe inter\'iew—a soldier's view of his experiences in battle. Oral history is very important because, without it, we would lose first hand accounts of momentous occasions in history, such as Operalion

^Aof01't,r ,.,i,;„u-.*^_*-,4 *i J -i-Mi. t A 1 IT. TT • Ganison 66

Audio/Video Time Indexing Log

1. Interviewer; Lucas T. Garrison

2. Interviewee: John G. Kormann

3. Date of Interview: December 30, 2005

4. Location of Interview: Home of Mr. John Kormann Chev)' Chase, MD

5. Recording Format: Audio Type: Cassette Tape

Minute Mark Tape Counter Topic (Approximate) Number

Tape 1, Side A

4:50 69 Military Training 10:00 140 Battle ofthe Bulge 14:45 215 Private/Officer Relationship 20:25 308 Discusses Speaking Gennan 25:00 385 Landing in Glider During Operation Varsity 30:30 495 Moving Behind German Lines 35:00 597 Has Helmet Shot Off 40:00 675 Letter From Mother/Grenade 46:40 790 CIC Special Agent Foray 53:10 895 82"^ Airbome/Berlin 58:00 970 Search for Martin Bonnann

Tape 2, Side A

1:30 20 Finds Dedication Plaque for Hitler's Beriin Headquarters 4:75 80 Fighl With Soviets Over

9:30 195 No Opposition to War At Home 15:00 260 Meets Stephen Ambrose 17:00 285 How Battle Changed Him 21:40 375 17*^ Airbome Reunion 25:30 460 Burying Gennan Casualties 30:20 550 Moslem Religion/Culture 35:25 670 "We Warn One of Our Own" 38:00 700 Effects of Militar)' Ser\'ice Garrison 67

Works Consulted

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Beyond Rhine Near ." The Washington Post 25 Mar 1945. ProQuest.

Ambrose, Stephen E. The Victors. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1998.

Ambrose, Stephen E. Band of Brothers. New York: Touchstone, 2001.

Casey, William. The Secret War Against Hitler. Washington, DC: Regnery Gateway,

1988.

Eisenhower, Dwight D. Crusade In Europe. New York; Doubleday & Company, 1948.

"GIs Fish in Rhine, A Rear Area Now." The Washington Post 26 Mar, 1945. ProQuest.

Hofstadter, Richard. Great Issues in American History. New York: Vintage Books, 1983.

Kneece, Jack. Ghost Army if World War II. Gretna, Louisiana: Pelican Publishing

Company, 2001,

McGowen, Tom, Worid War II, New York: Franklin Watts, 1993.

Munay, Aaron R, ed. World War II Battles and Leaders. New York: DK Publishing,

2004.

I O'Doimell, Patrick K. Beyond Valor New York: The Free Press, 2001.

Ryan, Cornelius. A Bridge Too Far. New York; Simon & Schuster, 1974. t \ Terkel, Studs. "The Good War" New York: The New Press, 1986.

f^ln—-4 T^l,,, T-f.^T-.-IO/^T-* Ti-- '"..,...,.- "• .,.Ti '

Vail, John J. World War II: The War in Europe. San Diego, California: Lucent Books,

1991.

Whifing, Charies. The Home Front: Germanv, Alexandria, Virginia: Time-Life Books,

1982. Garrison 68

Zinn, Howard. A Peoples History Of The United States. New York: The New Press,

1995.