Conversation

FOLK THE KASBAH

A conversation with Omar Sayyed, leader of Nass el Ghiwane

Elias Muhanna In the back room of a dusky Casablanca “Illi.” He pronounces the word with café, three men are trying to teach me a exquisite slowness, flicking his tongue lesson. Our dialogue is muffled by the against the second syllable, pressing it sounds of the city on a freezing Febru- into relief. ary afternoon:rain, traffic, and the steady I hesitate for a moment, going boom of ten-foot swells pounding the through the motions. “Il-li?” rock pools below the nearby pier. Inside The doctor’s eyes are glowing as he the café, surly regulars bark at each other leans back and casts a triumphant look at over all manner of beverages:pastis and his comrades. cognac; green-tinted bottles of Cigale, “So what?” I ask abruptly. the local beer; syrupy mint tea, the The table erupts with flailing gestures “Berber whisky.” and rapid-fire cursing in Arabic. The The three men surround me, their doctor stands and shoves his drink aside voices garbled and slurry with drink. in disgust. Omar lumbers out of his The leader—a soft-spoken giant named chair, aping his friend’s pronunciation Omar Sayyed—reaches out to clamp a lesson. The third man at the table, a huge hand over my mouth. toothless old sailor, swipes the doctor’s “Shut up and listen. I will explain it discarded glass and empties it in a single one last time,” he says quietly. swallow. I laugh aloud and roll up my “Listen to me!” shrieks a young ge- sleeves. neticist, elbowing the big man aside. Omar finally regains the floor.“Don’t “Listen, and repeat after me.” The wiry be ashamed,” he offers. “The difference doctor clears his throat, straightens his is very subtle. Listen again.” collar, and licks his lips. He pauses and surveys the drunken “Illa,” he says. crowd menacingly,daring anyone to dis- Omar Sayyed “Illa,” I dutifully repeat. rupt his performance.

50 TRANSITION ISSUE 93 FOLK THE KASBAH 51 “Ma hmouni gheir ar-rijal illa da’ou.” inscrutable. But we are in Morocco, and The words, nearly whispered, fill the si- everyone knows exactly what we are lence. Around the café, patrons are lis- talking about.The waiters and assembled tening in, grinning. café dwellers share a chuckle at my ex- “Which means,” he says,“I worry for pense, while cabbies and grocers and ac- men when they disappear,when they are countants come over to greet my lost to us.” teacher, Omar Sayyed. He knows almost He waits for my cue, and says:“As op- none of them,but they all know him.He posed to:Ma hmouni gheir ar-rijal ...il- is a singer, a celebrity, perhaps the most li . . . da’ou,” lingering before and after famous voice in Morocco. He is fifty-six the penultimate word, and suddenly I years old.And he has just explained some hear it. song lyrics to me with the help of a ge- “Which means,” I blurt, flushed with netic engineer and a drunken sailor. discovery, “I worry for those men who disappeared. Right?” I am desperate to • • • qualify:“Those men, the ones that you knew? The ones you can name, who dis- Moroccans are intensely proud of Nass appeared, who were imprisoned— el Ghiwane,the group Omar Sayyed and right?” four friends founded thirty-odd years Drinks are ordered; a busboy cheers. ago in Casablanca. People like to call Omar eyes me appraisingly as his them the Beatles of Morocco—and also friends cackle and thump my back. My the Rolling Stones of Morocco, the Bob translation lesson is complete.In a differ- Dylans,and even the Grateful Dead.The ent country,even a different Arab coun- profusion of titles is confusing but apt:in try, this conversation would have been the 1970s, the members of Nass el Ghi-

Left to right: ‘Allal Yalla, Omar Sayyed, La’arbi Batma, Abdelaziz al-Tahiri, Boujmii’

52 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 wane (pronounced “ghee-WAN”) were indeed Western-style stars. They played before thousands of fans at packed are- nas, in country and abroad, and released dozens of recordings.Their songs played on every radio station, their logos em- blazoned on T-shirts, bumper stickers, and window decals.They grew their hair long, smoked dope, and wore white leather vests with mohair bell-bottoms. To most Moroccans,they looked like the revolution. As it happens, Nass el Ghiwane don’t sound anything like the Beatles. Their music doesn’t rock—it jangles, rumbles, and spins. It has a coarse, vaguely rural quality.When I first heard them, the im- age that came to mind was that of a crowded barnyard:a scene of squawking hens, lowing beasts of burden, a bony sheepdog trailing a passel of tin. The melodies are simple and soulful; the voices soar and dip in unison chants. But it is in the rhythm that you hear their in- credible dexterity.When the drums join in after a banjo solo, the effect can be transformative, like a natural runner hit- ting his stride. The beat sways and shifts pendent women of sometimes ill re- Clockwise from against the melody, drawing near and pute—but also melhoun,a medieval Mo- top: Omar Sayyed, pulling away again, as though the tune roccan oral tradition with roots in the La’arbi Batma, Boujmii’, Abdelaziz were trapped inside a whirling,weighted courtly arts of Moorish Spain. The al-Tahiri. Center: centrifuge. group’s hypnotic rhythms borrowed Mahmoud al-Sa’di Nass el Ghiwane debuted in 1971, from the mystagogic cadences of the Sufi when Omar Sayyed was twenty-four brotherhoods, especially the Gnawa— years old. All five members sang, often descendents of West African slaves, in chorus, and the group played a mot- whose ritual exorcisms entailed what ley assortment of traditional instruments might be the original trance music. The in untraditional combinations:the sentir, banjo—a grittier African alternative to a gut-stringed bass lute; banjo; kettle- the Arab zither—reinforced the sense drums, frame drums, tambourines, and that this music, which was unlike any- cymbals. The plaintive melodies and thing ever heard in Morocco, was in its chants brought to mind ‘aita, a popular own reckless way a summation of every- style associated with the shikhat—inde- thing ever heard in Morocco. It was a

FOLK THE KASBAH 53 Gnawa musicians self-consciously nationalist sound, new- steaming cups,a pot of tea,and the sprigs fangled and old-fashioned at the same of mint,and wormwood,and ambergris, time. that are used as infusions. In the open- Out of this ferment, the members of ing verse, the narrator asks the tray: Nass el Ghiwane emerged as custodians “Where are those people of good inten- of Morocco’s cultural heritage, curators tion once gathered around you? Where of its traveling show. Their songs were are those blessed and principled people, full of references to old poems,proverbs, those who once accompanied you?” medieval saints,and mystics.The fact that Evocative, poetical, and vague, the song they sang in colloquial Moroccan rather practically begs to be interpreted.Who than Egyptian Arabic affirmed this tip- were those “principled people,” anyway, of-the-tongue familiarity: and where did they go? Morocco was an erratically authoritarian country in the It’s hard to be at peace, but the love of drink 1970s, a decade marked by coup at- is easy, tempts and assassinations, political kid- Desire never forgets you nappings and censorship. Thousands of It’s hard to be calm, but the passions of “dissidents”—students,intellectuals,reli- people are easy . . . gious fundamentalists, leftists—were So difficult when the desire arises, when the peremptorily jailed, silenced, or worse. ambergris is put before me, Although the band steadfastly refused to And the mint and wormwood . . . explain itself, it isn’t difficult to under- stand why young,urban Moroccan audi- This, from Nass el Ghiwane’s most fa- ences were thrilled and scandalized by mous song,is stirring social commentary Nass el Ghiwane’s preoccupation with disguised as a conversation between a lost time, disintegrating landscapes, and man and his tea tray (“Essiniya” [The tea missing people. tray]). The words invoke family At the group’s inaugural concert in or friends, gathered around a platter of Casablanca, thunderous applause sum-

54 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 moned them back on stage for an en- Temptation of Christ. Boujmii’s soaring core. After the headlining act was can- voice was a crucial part of Nass el Ghi- celed by popular demand, Nass el Ghi- wane’s sound, soaring above the group’s wane played an impromptu second set, unison chants.“My voice was high,” re- and a star was born. As Tayyeb Seddiki, calls Omar Sayyed. “It rose to the ear. Morocco’s leading playwright,observed, But Boujmii’s was higher:it cut straight “In the 1960’s, Moroccans were sick of to the heart.” the Egyptian song. Totally fed up. The Still, Nass el Ghiwane has gone on to musicians were old men in burnooses release countless records. As best I can droning on about their lost loves.Young tell,I mean that literally—Omar Sayyed, people weren’t so attracted to that— for one, has no idea how many official shall we say—’classical’ aesthetic. Then releases the group was party to,and that’s along came a group of young guys with not even counting the bootlegs, which long hair,singing short songs,in a dialect you can buy on nearly any street corner that we could understand,with a few po- in Marrakech.Some of their most recent litical denunciations, and . . . voilà! It was recordings are a kind of homage to black a smash hit.” Morocco; Chants Gnawa du Maroq and Their popularity was boundless.In the Transe musique du Maroq feature faithful next few years, Nass el Ghiwane played yet spirited interpretations of that five- all over Morocco, as well as Europe, hundred-year-old black tradition. spawning hundreds of imitators and Of course, the group has had its crit- heralding the rebirth of Moroccan pop- ics.While other artists pursued Nass el ular music.In 1973,the group released its Ghiwane’s polemically hybrid sound— debut album, Essiniya, featuring many of their most potently allusive songs:“Fine Omar Sayyed is a singer, a celebrity, perhaps ghadi biya khouya” [Where are you tak- the most famous voice in Morocco. He ing me, brother?], “Ya bani insan” [Oh, human],“Al madi fat” [The past is gone], has just explained some song lyrics to me and the beloved title track. They called with the help of a genetic engineer and a their style “chaabi,” folk music, and the chaabi revival became the dominant drunken sailor. sound of the 1970s.Nass el Ghiwane was largely responsible for the emergence of Jil Jilala and Lem Chaheb are the most the Moroccan music industry, to say famous—the chaabi style has been over- nothing of Moroccan music piracy. shadowed by other musics,including the In 1974, tragedy struck the group for Gnawa music that has become ubiqui- the first time with the death of Hgour tous at world-music festivals. There are Boujmii’. The whole country mourned also Western imports like rock, soul, and his death.The group’s next album was ti- especially hip-hop—not to mention raï, tled Hommage à’ Boujmii’; “Ya sah” [Oh, the Algerian-bred sound that has be- my friend], one of its more powerful come a sort of Pan-Arab house music. numbers, appeared years later on the Lyrically, too, the group’s studied allu- soundtrack to Martin Scorsese’s The Last siveness has come to seem more obtuse

FOLK THE KASBAH 55 than enticing. By the late 1970s, even, into the English-speaking world. John Moroccan critics were complaining that Peel,the preeminent radio personality in “the troubles of our time—while at the the Commonwealth, recently played the center of the group’s message—are not group on his show. Their music is eru- realistically expressed,and not adequately dite and ethnic,alien and enthralling.In- given shape:they are consumed by the deed, it’s easy to imagine the same audi- ‘old-speak’and the entrancing rhythms.” ences that have come to love the quirky late-sixties art-pop of Brazil’s Tropicalia Nass el Ghiwane’s most famous song, making space in their hearts for seventies “Essiniya,” is a stirring social commentary Muslim folk-pop modernists like Nass el Ghiwane. disguised as a conversation between a man and his tea tray. ELIAS MUHANNA:What has the band been up to these days? Have you It seemed that Nass el Ghiwane spoke been traveling? eloquently to a particular moment in OMAR SAYYED:Not really.We may time, and that time has passed. Still, as I be doing a show next week in Tunis,but discovered in Casablanca,the group’s fan we’ve mainly been playing around here. base is in no way limited to aging hip- EM:When was the last time you played sters.Preteen surfers in Essaouria listen to a big show in Morocco? their music, while graduate students OS:We don’t usually get to play big compose semiotic analyses of their lyrics. shows, these days. But we did one a little Even Mohammed VI,the young king of while ago at Yacoub el Mansour—I Morocco,is said to be a fan—though his think the attendance was around 80,000. enthusiasm does not match that of his fa- It was sponsored by Ittihad al Ishtiraki. ther, Hassan II, who used to book the EM:That’s one of the socialist newspa- group for state dinners.The group mem- pers. Do you support the socialists? bers are beyond famous:they’re family. OS:Absolutely not. I don’t believe in In 2001, Morocco observed Nass el political parties. Make sure you get that Ghiwane’s thirtieth birthday with con- straight:I’ve never belonged to any po- certs, television specials, and an extraor- litical party. dinary twenty-five-part series in Ittihad EM:Does Nass el Ghiwane still perform al-Ishtiraki, one of the country’s biggest in Europe at all? newspapers.Some articles celebrated the OS:Sure. The last big show we played group’s history with misty-eyed reminis- was the “Jour de la Musique” festival in cences about the boys from Casablanca Paris, in front of the Eiffel Tower. It was (profiles, family portraits, interviews); huge:the Trocadero was totally packed. others reaffirmed Nass el Ghiwane’s con- The newspapers said the crowd was tinuing importance to Moroccan society. 400,000 people. But you know, it’s not The group still performs, though only easy to play in Europe. We’re always two founding members remain—Omar forced to explain that we’re not some and Allal Yalla,the grizzled banjo player. kind of traditional Moroccan group. They are also beginning to cross over People assume that we must be an An-

56 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 dalusian orchestra or a Gnawa troupe . . EM:Like the banjo! . something folkloric and traditional. OS:Just because we’re not using synthe- These days, when we play in France, sizers,drum machines,samplers,or what- we get people at our shows who are sec- ever,suddenly we’re playing “Koranic in- ond-generation French citizens—chil- struments”! He said that if we dren of Moroccan immigrants—and wanted to attract big crowds, we’d have they are completely assimilated into to completely change our look, our mu- French society. The only thing they’ve sic, everything.What can I say? hung onto from North Africa is raï—and EM:I didn’t realize that it was that bad. it’s a bastardized form of raï, in any case. OS:I think it annoys me more than any- They don’t care about the lyrics; they one else in the group, but I am horrified don’t know anything about the poetry. that anyone would consider us a tradi- The last time we were in France, a pro- tional ensemble, which, in Morocco, is moter actually said to us, “Maybe we the kind of group that’s hired to play should advertise you as a group that plays weddings or—if you’re lucky, because Koranic instruments.” the money is better—to entertain Gnawa ceremony

FOLK THE KASBAH 57 were nationalists, what do you mean ex- actly? Was it possible to be anything but nationalistic right after independence? OS:No, you’re right. But there were many political groups in those years, and the general movement of the Istiqlal [In- dependence Party] began to split into separate tributaries quite quickly. There were Pan-Arabists, there were socialists, there were many who remained loyal to the king. No matter what your politics were, it was impossible not to feel swept up in the excitement of independence. Plus, the world was changing so quickly; we were not impervious to what was happening in Europe and America. On the contrary, we were very much influ- enced by it. EM:You mean musically or socially? Album TK, Year TK tourists. That, to me, is not art. It’s en- OS:Both, obviously.The hippie revolu- © Polydor tertainment that sounds ethnic enough tion arrived in Morocco by way of for tourists, or for the younger genera- Casablanca.We were listening to Western tion that’s listening to bad raï. music, the Beatles, Jimi, the Stones. EM:Was it really all that different for Young men were leaving their families in your generation? the country to come and work in OS:Completely. I’m a child of the Casablanca,which probably felt,to them, 1940s. I grew up in Hay al Mohamedi, a like a different planet. working-class district of Casablanca. EM:What kinds of things made the There was a real sense of hope and en- biggest impression on you at the time? thusiasm in my generation. Our parents OS:Actually,I was most impressed—or were nationalists.We were the children obsessed, you could say—with the the- of independence; everything was ripe. ater! We had the Théâtre Municipal in You got the sense that anything could Casablanca,a great theater with a famous happen. director, Tayyeb Seddiki. It was a place EM:And this sentiment was particularly where ordinary people could go and lose strong in Casablanca, I imagine. themselves in the novelty and fantasy of OS:In Casa, yes, because the city repre- it all. sented le nouveau Maroc. Casa was the in- EM:When was this exactly? dustrial center of the country,and it was OS:This was the mid-1960s.We used to populated by Moroccans from all around hang out at the theater and watch the the kingdom. Rich, poor, Berber, Arab, plays. There are many kinds of perfor- as well as European. mance in Morocco, stretching back over EM:When you say that your parents the centuries, but we were interested in

58 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 bsat, which Tayyeb was exploring. Bsat Funeral of TK, theater is closest to what you know as 19TK theater in the West. It uses a stage, of sorts, and it has scenery and costumes. And stock characters—many of these stories were familiar to us. But to see them brought onto a European-style stage was . . . well, it was startling to us at the time. Tayyeb would turn proverbs into real, full-scale productions, with elaborate scenery and scores of actors and sometimes musical numbers. We were quite in awe of him and his en- tourage, which included some of the most famous actors and writers of the Arab world, at the time. EM:When you say “we,” you mean the band? OS:Everyone from Nass el Ghiwane was there, though we weren’t yet a group. We came separately, over the course of a few months, and after seeing his productions, we all wanted to be- come actors. EM:Not musicians? OS:No, we had our hearts set on acting at first. It was inevitable, because Tayyeb was an irresistible force. He treated the theater like a sacred place; onstage, there wasn’t a single person out of place. Everyone had a little ritual to perform. When you finished your part, you’d sit quietly and remain in character, waiting for the rest of the play to end.And when you came back the next day, you’d find the props and costumes back in their proper places. I tell you, we weren’t used you’d be amazed at what he produced to that kind of discipline and attention. with kids who’d never been on a proper And people remained in character. stage. Everything moved, even the Tayyeb didn’t tell you how to play your scenery! One of the other great writers part, he told you how to find your part. and actors of the time, Ahmed Tayyeb Even now,when you watch Al Harraz— Laalaj, said of us:“The beasts are being the filmed version, in black and white— trained.”

FOLK THE KASBAH 59 EM:So, was this the first true Moroccan OS:Quite simple. A man would get up theater? in front of a circle of spectators and tell OS:Well, not exactly, because we have a story—a long story, embellished with always had a theatrical tradition in the beautiful details. At various points, he halqas. would stop and sing, and then someone EM:I’ve seen those in the Jemma’ alelse would accompany him with a tam- Fna’, the huge central square in Mar- bourine or a drum.You would hear mu- rakech. They are basically street theater, sic and stories from all around Morocco. right? As a kid, crouching in that circle, you’d OS:The halqa is a combination of the- feel the hairs rise on the back of your ater, poetry, storytelling, music, and neck as the performers created a world dance.We spent an enormous amount of in front of you.So,you could say that the time at them as kids. halqa was the first true form of Moroc- EM:I think I’ve only really seen them in can theater. tourist traps. What were the real ones EM:Did the other guys from Ghiwane like? also go? And did you all know each other at that time? OS:Absolutely, we used to go together. I knew Allal,Boujmii’,and La’arbi at that time; we met Paco and Abadelaziz later on. But the four of us all grew up on Moulay Sherif Street in Hay al Mo- hammedi.We’ve known each other for over fifty years. EM:Had any of you had any musical training? OS:Allal did:he could read music, and he was an excellent banjo player, even at that young age.The rest of us didn’t have a formal music education.We didn’t have much of a cultural or academic back- ground,period.But,this is what I’m try- ing to say:the halqa was our school, our musical, social, and spiritual education. Without it, I don’t think that there would have ever been a Nass el Ghiwane. EM:So, when did the inspiration for a musical group develop? OS:It all started in the Café Théâtre, which was a little café that Tayyeb Sed- diki started up beside the Municipal Theater.It had a little stage,and anybody could get up and perform in front of the

60 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 regulars. Actors did monologues and lit- language is almost seductive in its de- tle skits; musicians came and played. The scriptiveness, and it is full of proverbs, café was filled with journalists and stu- which are passed from generation to dents and writers who would spend the generation. whole day arguing and drinking coffee Anyway, this is the language we sing and smoking. in, and if it sounds different to you than EM:Sounds a bit like a modernhalqa . the ordinary dialect you hear on the OS:Actually, yes, except anyone could street, that’s because it is older. Al-Mel- get up and play. Tayyeb himself was do- lih, one of Morocco’s greatest writers, ing very halqa-esque skits, one-man once said that he loved Nass el Ghiwane shows, poetry readings, storytelling, and he roped us into adding some music into It’s not easy to play in Europe. We’re always the mix to make some of the stories forced to explain that we’re not some kind of more vivid.We’d never had a place like that in Morocco—that was the kind of traditional Moroccan group. Just because thing you’d find in Paris. But Tayyeb we’re not using synthesizers, drum brought it here. He realized that we needed something like that, so people machines, samplers, or whatever, suddenly could come together and debate art or we’re playing “Koranic instruments”! music or anything they liked.So anyway, that’s where we first started playing as a because the language we used had a group, writing our own songs. scent, a perfume. I think he meant that EM:One of my favorite things to do in this language has the scent of an earlier Casablanca is to strike up conversations time, before independence, before colo- with people in cafés, and ask them what nialism,when our great-great-grandpar- your shows were like in the 1970s.I have ents were young. Most of our songs are yet to speak to somebody between forty written in that language, and we incor- and fifty years old who had never been porated a lot of the images from the old to one.The look they get in their eyes— proverbs.Our name,even.We found it in when they describe that time—is price- a melhoun:“I asked the jasmine about you less. / I asked the rose / I asked the friends of OS:The shows were really special, par- Ghiwane about you.” ticularly the more intimate ones,because Of course, we took proverbs from all you felt like you were in the presence of over the country, not just the most fa- a family. Everybody knew every word, mous ones—not just Abderrahman al the music tied us all together. Majdub. And we drew heavily from the EM:People often talk about the diffi- poetry of the Amazighen, the Berbers. culties of interpreting—let alone trans- The creativity of the Amazighen is in- lating—your songs. credible; you don’t find it anywhere else. OS:You know,our parents spoke in a di- They have a very expressive language. alect,a vernacular that was very poetic.It You know, every rooster in the world is was creative and complicated, and they a Berber. had learned it from their parents. That EM:Excuse me?

FOLK THE KASBAH 61 OS:When the rooster crows in thesinging, and the song kept going round morning, he sings five notes. [Omar and round in his head. So he got up and demonstrates.] The notes are identical to went outside to listen.And that one man the ones in the pentatonic scale that all happened to be my friend La’arbi Batma, of Berber music is built on. No matter who was one of the original five mem- where the rooster is,in Russia,in Bolivia, bers of Nass el Ghiwane. in China, he sings five notes. That’s be- He listened to what the beggar was cause the rooster is Berber. singing: EM:I’ll keep that in mind. Do you have a song about that? I’ve gone and left all behind OS:[Laughing.] No, but it isn’t a bad My family and loved ones didn’t want me to go The halqa is a combination of theater, poetry, But I didn’t fall into this ocean by chance ... storytelling, music, and dance. It was That’s what the beggar was singing.So our school, our musical, social, and spiritual La’arbi took it, added some other verses education. and brought it to Boujmii’, our main singer,and Boujmii’transformed it com- idea. Anyway, when we got up on stage, pletely. Boujmii’ sang: people were initially surprised to hear that the words we sang were from a dif- Oh regret, regret! ferent generation. But at the same time, What is wrong with my glass of tea, sad they didn’t sound archaic, like the tradi- among all the happy glasses? tional music we’d heard growing up.Our What is the matter with my own glass, lost music was fresh, but because we com- in thought, lost, extending its sadness to bined it with the dialect and intonation me? of our parents, the result was something that many Moroccans—especially And that was the beginning of our young people in the city—found famil- most famous song. iar. EM:Almost from the beginning, people EM:I’ve heard there’s an interestinghave been finding political messages in story of borrowing behind your most fa- your work.Was that ever your intention? mous song, “Essinya.” OS:In the context of all the fear and OS:Well, there was a man named Ba paranoia at the time, it’s inevitable that Salem who used to sit and sing in the one might see a political agenda in our street, begging for alms. He had been all lyrics. But we never tried to write polit- around Casablanca, singing a particular ical songs. They were songs of protest, song—something about a tea tray. Peo- sure, but they were more than merely ple tossed him a few coins, but nobody political. really paid any attention to what he was EM:What kind of protest was it, then, if saying,except for one man.This one guy it wasn’t political? lived in Hay al Mohammedi; he was sit- OS:Look, we were street kids from the ting in his room and he heard the beggar poorest part of Casablanca, and we sang

62 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 from that perspective.It’s not an elevated about what he truly feels. And what he perspective,you see.It’s not a perspective truly feels, or what we truly felt, didn’t from which somebody can criticize the have to do with politics.I don’t think we people who have power, in order to take were smart enough to criticize even if it for himself. Because the man of the we had wanted to be political. Take the street, the beggar, doesn’t have any hope songs “Fine ghadi biya khouya” [Where of getting power, so he can be honest are you taking me, brother?] or “El madi

Omar Sayyed fatt” [The past is gone]. These were disappeared already—and as much as we songs about the uncertainty and anxiety thought that we were on our way to we felt in that moment, because every- something better, we had also lost some- thing around us was changing so rapidly. thing enormous. The world of our parents was slipping EM:So the song marked this middle away, and we were heading to . . . who ground? Between the old Morocco and knows where? the new one? EM:I’m sorry to harp on this, but Mo- OS:Yes,maybe.It was a reminder to look roccans love to talk about the politics of around and notice that the husk was still the group. Maybe you didn’t put it there there. But, as you say, many people mis- deliberately, but many seemed to feel it. understood. It’s widely believed that “El debbana fi- EM:Did these misreadings disturb you? l btana” [The flea in the sheep’s hide] is OS:You know, despite what you say, I your most political song. A journalist in don’t think the average listener thought Rabat once told me that you used to of us as a political group. The problem look up at the portrait of the king over that we had was with the intellectuals the stage in the concert halls while and the critics; they’re the ones who singing the chorus:“We are living the wanted us to talk about the deeper lives of fleas in a sheep’s hide.” meaning of our songs. And it’s been like OS:That’s complete nonsense. Many this for the last thirty years. I’ve tried to people tried to find a political agenda in ignore it as much as I can,because I don’t that song, but they were totally missing have a political agenda, so I don’t have the point, which is unfortunate, because much to say to them.They never wanted we were—in all honesty—trying to say to talk about form, about the music it- something much more important. They self:why do you sing it this way,why do thought we were saying that the flea was you play it that way? They weren’t in- sick of living in the sheep’s hide, that it terested. wanted something else. EM:Has the group ever gotten into any EM:That’s what I gathered, yes. trouble with the authorities? OS:But that wasn’t it.After all, a sheep’s OS:No, not really. Actually, the only hide is the natural home for a flea, right? time we were ever questioned was about That’s where it is supposed to live. How- our song “Ma hmouni” [My great sad- ever, that is where it is supposed to live ness]. It had no political message at all. when the sheep is alive, not dead. We But because the chorus was a bit am- were trying to say that this hide that the biguous—it was about death,people be- flea is living in was once a sheep. The ing lost to us,and as you know,by chang- hide remains,but the living thing is gone. ing a single vowel, the entire meaning We—Moroccans, our generation— changes—everybody thought we were were living within the remains of some- trying to make trouble. thing that no longer exists. EM:About all the political kidnappings EM:In other words . . . at the time. OS:In other words, the world of our OS:Right, but that wasn’t the point.We grandparents was disappearing—or had tried to explain, but they didn’t under-

64 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 stand,and they kept giving us trouble.So times. I ask myself, “Why do these peo- in the end I just went to the police sta- ple respect Nass el Ghiwane in this tion and said,“All right, look, the song is way?” I have never thought that it was about Palestine.” purely because of our music. It’s also be- EM:And they believed you? cause they are aware that we don’t have OS:Yes.And it made it easier for every- the freedom of expression that we one, because that was a recognizable po- should have. It’s not like it is in the litical cause that people could rally be- United States. The Rolling Stones can hind. But I really think that that’s the do whatever they want, say whatever kind of thinking that turns artists into they want.We can’t, and what’s more, as cannibals. If you only sing about an artist in Morocco, you don’t have any tragedies and great causes, you end up security. waiting for a thousand students to be EM:Security against what? thrown in prison,just so you can find the When the rooster crows in the morning, he inspiration to perform. I don’t believe in anthems.Artists aren’t supposed to chase sings five notes. The notes are identical after the events and tragedies of the to the ones in the pentatonic scale that all of world. Make an event of your own life, your own art. Berber music is built on. No matter where EM:Moroccans often refer to you guys the rooster is, in Russia, in Bolivia, in China, as the Beatles of Morocco.There may be some truth to that, but I feel that the he sings five notes. That’s because the connection between Nass el Ghiwane rooster is Berber. and Morocco is unique—if anything, you mean more to your fans, in an odd OS:Social security. The only thing an way, than the Beatles meant to theirs. artist can depend on is his children. I OS:Well,there’s a certain respect.When think that people here are aware of that you go out on the town with me, when fact, and they respect us for continuing we get into a taxi, you’ll see. Because to find a way to make art despite the dif- when I get into a taxi, it’s as myself, not ficulties. as a star.We greet each other like family, EM:But surely you aren’t doing so bad? even though we don’t know each other, I mean, your group is the most success- because in some way the taxi driver feels ful band in the country. If anything, that we are family. you’d think that people would feel spite- EM:Yes,but there’s something else, too. ful for your success. It seems like your music is everywhere; OS:Not at all, for a couple of reasons. your fans come from every region of this First of all, whatever success we’ve had, country, every social class, every age we haven’t flaunted it.We’re not out buy- group. How do you explain that? ing airplanes like the rock stars in Amer- OS:You should probably ask the histori- ica. But the real answer to your question ans about that. I can’t explain it myself, is this:being the first successful band of except to say that there is a deep con- our kind in Morocco meant that we nection. So deep that it scares me, some- were the first to be taken advantage of by

FOLK THE KASBAH 65 66 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 piracy.In fact,the piracy industry in Mo- Omar Sayyed rocco developed into what it is today be- cause of us. So, don’t be fooled by what you see in the cassette shops.We’re not getting a cent of most of it. But getting back to your original question, I think people respect us because they identified completely with what we were singing. EM:Maybe it’s a Middle Eastern phe- nomenon. Millions of Arabs felt the same way about Umm Koulthoum. OS:But we didn’t set out to be a truly Moroccan group.When we first started, we were playing with a guy named Ali al-Qadiri. He hoped that we would turn out to be a Western-style rock band. EM:You were originally called the New Dervishes, right? OS:Yes. Al-Qadiri was determined to turn us into a foreign band. He said, “You have to wear different trousers. And no shirts.” I said, “What if it’s cold?” He didn’t think that was funny, but I was serious. “And what about the fat guys?” Even in those days,some of us were quite plump. “And the scars?”You know, it’s not like it is in France, where all the singers are good-looking. So in the end, we decided against the whole approach. We wore regular clothes.We called ourselves Nass el Ghi- wane. And that was the end of it.

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