Joel Buchanan Archive of African American History: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/ohfb
Samuel Proctor Oral History Program
College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Program Director: Dr. Paul Ortiz 241 Pugh Hall PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 (352) 392-7168 https://oral.history.ufl.edu
AAHP 121 Jackie Ayers African American History Project (AAHP) Interview conducted by Marna Weston on September 3, 2010 43 minutes | 19 pages
Abstract: This interview was conducted at the 2010 Black Alumni Weekend at the University of Florida. Jackie Ayers was born and raised in Nashville, Arkansas, and then went to school in Essex, Missouri. He describes some of his experiences growing up, as well as his family history. He explains that he ended up at UF because he was recruited by Rod McDavis, who insisted that UF was the “Stanford of the South,” and then he worked a variety of administrative jobs at UF for a number of years. He also speaks highly of what it was like to work with former UF president John Lombardi, and he shares his reflections on the student murders in Gainesville in 1990. Dr. Ayers also reconciles his experiences with racism at UF and wider Gainesville with his belief that UF offers a strong foundation for current and future students.
Keywords: [African American History; Texarkana; University of Florida]
For information on terms of use of this interview, please see the SPOHP Creative Commons license at http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AfricanAmericanOralHistory.
AAHP 121 Interviewee: Jackie Ayers Interviewer: Marna Weston Date: September 3, 2010
W: This is Marna Weston with the Sam Proctor Oral History Program on September
3, 2010 in Emerson Alumni Hall at the Lowe Family Library with Dr. Jackie Ayers
for Black Alumni Weekend. Dr. Ayers, thank you very much for taking the time to
answer some questions about this weekend and yourself.
A: Sure my pleasure.
W: Could you please spell your full name from birth?
A: Jackie, J-A-C-K-I-E. Lewis, L-E-W-I-S. Ayers, A-Y-E-R-S.
W: What is your date of birth?
A: January 19, 1953.
W: Where were you born?
A: Nashville, Arkansas.
W: Nashville, Arkansas. Can you tell me a little bit about Nashville, Arkansas?
Where is it geographically located? I’ve never heard of Nashville, Arkansas.
A: I guess it’s in southwest Arkansas. It’s about fifty, sixty miles from the Texas
border between Arkansas and Texas.
W: So would you call that the Texarkana region?
A: The Texarkana region, yes.
W: And is that the Red river? I don’t know a lot about Texas so you have to orient
me.
A: I don’t know a whole lot myself. I was two years old when I left there, so I don’t
know.
W: Okay. Who were your mom and dad? AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 2
A: Ralph and Lou Maggie Ayers.
W: Where were they originally from?
A: My mom was originally from Nashville, and dad is originally from southeast
Missouri where I came from before I came here.
W: Can you tell me a little bit about your dad’s parents, his mom and dad?
A: They were farmers in southeast Missouri, owned a small farm there. That’s pretty
much what they did throughout their lives.
W: Did you have the opportunity to be close with your grandparents growing up?
A: Yes, we spent pretty much every Sunday there for Sunday dinner, and after
church did a little bit of work with them on the farm and those kinds of things.
W: What kind of things did you do on the farm? What kind of chores did you have?
A: Planting cotton, corn, beans; typical farm type things. Driving tractors, grating,
disking. Whatever needed to be done we just kind of did it.
W: Growing up in North Carolina with my grandmother I picked cucumbers, hand
and tied tobacco and cropped that. Did you do any tobacco in Arkansas?
A: No tobacco. Primarily wheat, corn, beans, soy beans those kinds of things. A
little bit of watermelon is the closest to the vegetables kinds of things.
W: What were your dad’s parents’ names?
A: Ralph and O’Dell Ayers.
W: Excellent. How about your mom’s mother and father, those grandparents?
A: Okay. From that side it’s Nelson, so it was Mydell and Viola Nelson.
W: Where were they from?
A: They were from Arkansas of the Nashville area. AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 3
W: Terrific. Do you have brothers and sisters?
A: I have one brother.
W: What’s his name?
A: His name is Rufus Ayers and he’s living in St. Louis, Missouri.
W: Okay, and you’re married.
A: Yes.
W: How long have you been married and could you talk about your wife for a
moment?
A: Sure. I’ve been married for twenty five years last Tuesday to—
W: Congratulations.
A: Thank you. To Shirley Clarke Ayers who I met here back at the University of
Florida in [19]79.
W: Wow, what were the circumstances under which you met?
A: Well the circumstances was is that Dr. Rosie Bingham, who was on staff here,
and I were friends, and I had gone home for the weekend and left my stereo
equipment at her place. When I came back to pick it up Shirley was there, who
was here to interview for a position at the University of Florida in minority affairs
at that time. We kind of met and hit it off. In her opinion dated way too long, but
got married about five years later. [Laughter].
W: Was it kind of love at first sight would you say?
A: Actually it was. After the first weekend of meeting her and spending time with
here I actually called my brother I think that Tuesday and told him I found AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 4
somebody that I was going to marry. Now she don’t believe that, but that’s
actually what happened.
W: Okay. I’ll have to get Rufus in to tell that—your side of the story.
A: [Laughter].
W: Do you have children?
A: Yes, two a boy and a girl. They live in Kansas, Missouri. My son’s a math and
biology teacher, a combination of computer science and engineering stuff. My
daughter is a physician assistant.
W: What are their names?
A: Gavin and Sonya.
W: Any grandchildren?
A: Two.
W: One from each or two from one and the other is still working on it? (Laughter).
A: Two from my son and his wife. They’re like nine and eleven, Gavin Jr. and Kia.
W: You beamed all of a sudden, you’re radiating. Do you like being a grandfather?
A: It’s been a real joy being a grandfather. I’ve had some of my better moments in
life with my experiences with them. I usually take them with me whenever I travel
for conferences, and those kinds of things. They come and join me. It’s been kind
of our way of spending time together and seeing the country together. Provide
you with some pretty unique, memorable experiences.
W: Awesome. What is your earliest memory of education? AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 5
A: My earliest memory of education would probably be the first day I had to stand
out on the road with my folks to get on the bus to go to my one room
schoolhouse back in Missouri.
W: What part of Missouri was that?
A: That was southeast Missouri.
W: The town closest would be?
A: The town closest would have been Essex or Dexter, Missouri in that part of the
country. Being in a classroom with probably little over one hundred folks or less
with grades one through eight, six in one room, red brick schoolhouse.
W: Literally one room, okay. Do you remember who your favorite teacher at the one
room schoolhouse was?
A: I don’t know if I had a favorite teacher. I was only there for about little over a
year- year and a half, and then they decided to close the school and merge us
into another larger school.
W: What was the name of the first school? Then what was the name of the merged
school?
A: I don’t remember the name of the first little school. The next one we went to was
Essex Elementary or something like that, which had grades one through six. That
much I do remember.
W: Did you have a favorite teacher at that school?
A: Yeah, Mr. Washington.
W: And why do you recall Mr. Washington? What did he teach and what did you
remember about him? AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 6
A: I remember about him was that in anticipation of integration he took a bunch of
us aside for about a year and made sure that we were well-prepared to move into
integrated schools, which happened, I think, when I was in like the sixth or
seventh grade. He was very kind. He drilled in our heads the need to, how do I
say, be not only good as, but try to be at least one step better than our other
classmates that we were preparing to work with. He took us aside and caught us
up on algebra, some biology, and chemistry stuff so that when we hit the
integrated school we could hit the floor running if you will.
W: Again the smile you remember it fondly. Mr. Washington had a strong impact on
you.
A: Yeah, one of those kind of educators that in many way helped set the stage for
me to use my OCD in a very productive way. [Laughter]. I’m just kidding.
W: So you leave elementary school did you go to a combined middle school or high
school?
A: Well we went to a middle school which had I think it was sixth, seventh and
eighth grade if I’m recalling correctly. That was our first series of schools of being
in integrated schools. The elementary school was an all-Black elementary
school. I started out in what they called one of their semi-upper level
classifications they used to have us in these stratified classes of one, two, and
three. I started out in there. All of the Black folks were in either two or three. I was
in two, and then after a semester they moved me to one, which was literally an
end of one. I was the only African-American student in my class, which kind of
stayed that way all the way through high school from then on out pretty much at AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 7
that level. That was an interesting experience to say the least. It was a good
experience. It kept me educationally focused in a competitive mindset.
[Break in Recording]
W: Continuing the interview with Dr. Jackie Ayers. We’ve talked about your family,
early education and middle school. Can you talk a little bit about high school?
Where did you go and what was that like?
A: I went to Richland High School which is in Essex, Missouri. It’s kind of a small
high school. I think we had five, six hundred students in the high school. I was in
a class of about sixty folks from ninth grade through twelfth grade. Pretty much in
my class level, as I indicated earlier, I was the only African-American student.
Our class was like the IB class if you compare that to our IB programs here at
Eastside. I was very active in sports, basketball, track, baseball; those kinds of
things.
W: Were you involved in any non-academic clubs: student government or chess
club, debate team? Anything like that?
A: I used to be vice-president of my class, and president of our FFA, which was
Future Farmers of America.
W: Why that club?
A: It was one of those active clubs that we had. Whatever club we had I was pretty
much involved in it whether it was that or student government kinds of activities.
We didn’t have a whole bunch of them, but that was one of the national
organizations they had available. We were from farming country so everyone AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 8
was pretty much from a farming kind of background to some degree, so it was
one of the more popular clubs to be a part of.
W: So you had plenty of opportunities to exercise leadership. Sometimes I’ve
spoken to people during the era of early integration and because of differences in
the school and maybe being a person of color would have excluded a person
from those kind of opportunities. What was it about your leadership or learning
about living a community and exercising leadership that gave you that success to
be included in leadership positions—to be elected by your peers and have those
experiences?
A: I think one of the things was is that for some strange reason I’ve always had the
natural ability to get along with folks. Even before I got a doctorate in psychology,
folks just kind of gravitated to me with issues and problems and concerns. I was
there to listen and be supportive. As a result of that I kind of came away with a
reputation of being a friendly and likeable guy, but also someone who seemed to
come across with some level of wisdom beyond my age. I never lost an election
if I ever was nominated to run for something. I just kinda always won.
Academically I excelled as well. That was kind of my ticket for folks not to—what
should I say? Let me into the clubs if you will. I probably shouldn’t say this, but
I’ll say it anyway. I used to always say that if they did not let me in I would keep
the curb so high they had to let me in.
W: [Laughter]. So I’ll give you a break if you do the right thing. That’s an interesting
definition of leadership. What is your personal definition of leadership if you were
to articulate it? AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 9
A: My personal definition of leadership is someone who genuinely has the ability to
see the big picture and to know that leadership is really about the people that
you’re trying to lead, and help achieve things. It’s really not about you. If you can
keep your focus on caring and taking care of the needs of others yours get taken
care of as well. And using an approach that allows other folks to feel like they
were involved in the beginning of the process with whatever ultimate decisions
that comes out. I’ve always saw myself from a leadership standpoint, not
necessarily as the person in charge, but the person who was able to get people
to come together, to work as a team to get stuff done. In most of my supervisory
roles people knew that I was the director, but the reality was they worked with
Jackie, not for Jackie. That’s just kind of the way I’ve gone for as long as I can
remember in any leadership role.
W: Well now we’re almost at the University of Florida to speak about Black Alumni
Weekend and you wear your orange and blue proudly. You got the logo, you’re
decked out and ready for the weekend. I just want to ask you about your journey
to get to the University of Florida, your collegiate education, and your graduate
studies, and what did you focus on, and how did you come to Gainesville.
A: My first round in undergrad was at the Southeast Missouri State University, which
is southeast—
W: I’ve been there.
A: Oh you have?
W: Yeah, I know where SMS is. We had the national debate finals there in the
[19]90s, so I had the chance to visit that campus. AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 10
A: Oh! Okay, excellent. I went there right out of high school.
W: They’ve changed the name haven’t they? It’s something else now.
A: Right.
W: I can’t recall what the new name is.
A: Southeast Missouri—I just looked at this. It’s university now. They took the state
part out of it. Southeast Missouri—but anyway. I should know better. I just got an
email from their alumni association last week. I started there in [19]71, and got an
undergraduate degree in Psychology with a minor in Biology and Chemistry. At
one point I was a pre-med student, but I had an opportunity to go to a psychiatric
hospital and work with some developmentally disabled kids and kinda got
addicted to psychology. I got into that area. After I graduated from there I went on
to get a Master’s in Guidance Counseling or Counseling Psychology. I went to
work in Student Affairs as Associate Director of financial aid. Then I joined the
Counselor Education faculty there for about a year. Then that process went off to
a conference and ran into a Dr. Rod McDavis who actively recruited me here
instead of going to Stanford. He kind of let me believe this was the Stanford of
the south.
W: He was a great education dean and now he’s president of his own college in
Ohio.
A: Absolutely right. I was looking around for doctorate programs in counseling or
clinical psychology. He recruited me here and the university sent me off on a paid
educational sabbatical to go and do some of my doctorate work with the intent of
coming back and contingent of teaching on the faculty. AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 11
W: Now you said he recruited you. What was it about what he said or did or involved
you that ultimately led you to say, “Yes, I think that’s a good place”?
A: It was really kind of how personable he was, and how he made me feel like I
could come here and I could be successful. The University of Florida really
wanted me to be here, because they were really actively trying to recruit
specifically minority students. The program that they had here that he was
involved with offered a unique combination at that time. It was a joint degree
program in both Counseling Education as well as Counseling Psychology, which
allowed me to be able to get the doctorate level educational training to go back
and do some teaching stuff, as well as being able to get licenses as a
psychologist. It provided me with the opportunity to be an independent
practitioner. And then when I came down here to the University of Florida of
course the beautiful campus and then the weather and there were sort of some
similarities. I looked at the way the campus looked and the atmosphere at that
time compared to Stanford, and so I decided to come here. So, yeah, that’s how I
ended up here. In that process my desire to practice medicine never left me. I
was able to graduate not only with my PhD in Counseling Psychology, but I was
able to put together a kind of a unique joint degree program with the College of
Medicine to graduate with a joint degree in College of Medicine’s physician
assistant program and get an undergraduate degree in a Bachelor’s of Medicine
here. That’s pretty much it. I’ve done a little bit of it all at the University of Florida
in terms of being an undergraduate student, graduate student. I’ve been on the
faculty, because I started teaching right after I graduated from the P.A. school in AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 12
the College of Medicine’s physician assistant program. Then I moved to the
student healthcare center, the infirmary as a psychologist. After a few years in
that program I decided I wanted to focus more on direct clinical service stuff. I did
that as a psychologist for two or three years, and then kind of out of the blue after
a professional development leave I got drafted in terms of being the director of
our student mental health service in [19]90 or [19]91. I did that up until this past
May and then switched over to being director of employee health services for the
University of Florida. I do now which includes our occupational medicine,
workers’ compensation, and employee assistance program.
W: Do you feel you made the right choice? Was this the right place for you at the
right time?
A: Absolutely. When I look back at it, it turned out to be a natural fit for me. A part of
that was because the University of Florida offered so many opportunities that for
somebody who was addicted to education this was the right place to be. I could
study in as many different areas as I wanted to. I was able to put together a
combination of educational products, if you will, that met all of my needs and then
some.
W: Because you were here in the [19]90s I got a couple of names I want to throw
out. Just give me your reactions. John Lombardi.
A: To be perfectly honest with you, loved me some John Lombardi. John was the
kind of guy, as I will quickly tell folks, that if I had a need or an issue I could walk
over to his office. I was always welcome and the door was always open. He
usually greeted with a handshake and a hug. I haven’t had too many presidents AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 13
that were that warm and fuzzy. That was my relationship with both him and
Sorenson. They were just those kinds of folks. He was great.
W: Dr. Sorenson went on of course to become the President of the University of
Alabama and at South Carolina. Have you kept in good communications with
them since they’ve left the University of Florida?
A: Not as much as I probably should have. I mean I’ve run into them a time or two
here and there during a conference, or whenever they’ve entered back into town
from time to time. But yeah Lombardi, when I see him, or I ran into some folks
from LSU who had run into him.
W: Dr. Lombardi you mean? Yeah, he’s the Chancellor of the Louisiana system now.
A: From that standpoint we still know each other, and I’m sure if I needed to ask him
something he would respond in kind.
W: The late Dr. James Scott.
A: I loved me some James Scott. He was the kind of guy who truly believed in a
collaborative working relationship with folks regardless of what unit or department
that you were in. He just seemed to be the kind of guy who had an outreached
arm and hands to try bring you in and let you be a part of whatever was going on
in student affairs for whatever unit or division you were on on campus. That was
my memories of him. He was another one of those folks who was very
approachable. In many ways you could get the back off his shirt to help you if you
needed that. He was a tremendous loss. I will forever grieve that loss.
W: You came here in turbulent times; this is the twentieth anniversary of the student
murders. I don’t want to dwell on that for too long but I feel like getting a reaction AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 14
from you having lived through those times and been here would be appropriate
for people listening years from now. What do you remember of those times?
What sticks out in your mind about that situation?
A: Well obviously, the first thing is the tremendous tragedy it was for students,
faculty, staff, deans and the whole community. In many ways it was kind of a
shocker around the world. I can remember going to—being at Toronto at a
conference a year or so after that and somebody from India asked, when I told
him I was from Gainesville, if I had heard about the student murders. The thing I
remember most about that it was a time when people who had seemed to have
been separated by whatever sorrows you could think of on this campus came
together and were very supportive of each other. Strangers, different races,
ethnicities, you name it. People kind of came together to try to care and take care
of each other. Like I said it was a tragedy in many ways, but in a number of other
ways it was a unique opportunity and experience for a lot of folks to come
together. Only under those kinds of circumstances probably would we have come
together. It was just a pretty unique time in many ways from that standpoint.
W: In what ways has the University of Florida changed in those times? Both
generally I would ask and if you would follow up with it how’s it changed for Black
students here at UF.
A: Well I think in some ways it’s changed in the sense that the level of involvement
for Black students seems to have increased considerably from an organizational
standpoint. I think that the educational opportunities in terms of the flexibilities of
majors and those things have improved. I know I sound like I’m hesitating a little AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 15
bit here, but I guess there was comparative what I sense now versus what I was
sensing way back when. I know that the University of Florida is a great place and
it was warm and accepting. It seemed more inviting then than it does now, but
that has nothing to do with, I think, the University of Florida that’s probably how
the state of Florida has changed more than anything else. One Florida put a
whole different taste on what it meant to be a minority student at the University of
Florida in my mind. It got us to be a part of the whole in many ways, but at the
same time the uniqueness I remember experiencing as a minority student at the
University of Florida doesn’t seem to be there. That’s probably good in many
ways. It just doesn’t feel the same. It’s a great place to be for high quality
education. A real opportunity to get an experience that really prepares you for not
only jobs in the future in various corporations, but I think from a global standpoint
this university sets you up to be able to function at a high level once you leave
here. I still would have to say that I would send my kids here. I know that my
grandson will probably work his way into becoming a Gator since they all seem to
love the Gator Nation.
W: Bright Futures? [Laughter]. What are your hopes for this next and incoming
generation for African-American students at the University of Florida? What do
you hope for them?
A: I hope that they’re able to come here and of course get the quality education, but
also an experience that will prepare them for life in general. Leave here with
fond and warm memories of actually having had a full both academic as well as a
personal heartwarming experience. Leaving here feeling like they really do have AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 16
the skills, knowledge, and inspiration to go on and do all that they’d like to do in
life. To not leave here with any unnecessary scars, but then you can learn from
those as well.
W: Your comment on scars reminds me, I’d like to do a little role playing with you
here for a second, and ask you to think about your most positive experience
related to the University of Florida and maybe a not so positive experience. Then
compare them.
A: The positive experience for me has been that the University of Florida because of
its wide variety of educational opportunities it really did give me an opportunity to
learn as much as I wanted to. In some cases to learn more than I really needed
to know. But I had the time, and the flexibility, and the resources, and
wherewithal to just study and learn as much as I wanted until somebody told me I
needed to take my butt to work and make a real living other than being a
professional student. [Laughter] I assume that sounds broad but, that really was
what I enjoyed about being here. I could study, meet people. My favorite places
was in the library. That was kind of my hobby; going to the library reading,
studying, and interacting with folks, and those kinds of things. Negative
experiences I have to say that it took a little getting accustomed to, and this may
sound a little strange, but I always sometimes say I really didn’t discover racism
until I came to the University of Florida or really to Gainesville. And part of that
was my guess is that in Missouri, as I look back at it, it happened, it existed, but I
really didn’t see it. Here people if they decided to be racists towards you they
would kind of just go ahead and be it. I can still remember some of my AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 17
experiences of being pulled over while riding my bike being Black. I had a nice
little red sports car when I came here and getting stopped considerable times by
GPD for whatever reasons. Other than that those were pretty much the little
negatives that I can remember. All that did was taught me how to—how shall I
say—work at figuring out how to stay out of those situations, and embrace my
relationships with law enforcement and whoever else had the power to impact my
life; to work around those things and move on with my life.
W: You describe it so rationally in an organized logical fashion how you processed
and dealt with those situations. If I can dig a little further, how do you feel about
the fact, or not the fact, but do you feel that a person who is not Black or a
person of color doesn’t deal with that burden? They don’t have to learn what
those techniques and strategies are. Are you a different person because you’ve
had to learn for survival sake articulate, practice, and process and know how to
do that. That’s not a burden that maybe somebody else has. How do you
reconcile that with your life?
A: Well I think for me what it did was kind took away my innocence in the sense that
I probably saw life through these rose color glasses for lack of better terms, in the
sense that I just thought everybody liked each other, and everybody generally
would care for each other regardless of race, or whatever you want to call it. And
so it kind of taught me that I had to know that everybody didn’t think that way,
and to accept that. The opportunities that I found myself to try and impact that in
some positive way. I can remember a time or two when I had a client or two
when I was in some of my training at the VA who were members of the Klu Klux AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 18
Klan. He wouldn’t let a Black nurse touch him, but they would somehow allow
themselves to talk to me about enhancing their sex lives from a therapy
standpoint after cardiac surgery. I just kind of figured out to take people where
they were at and work with what I could with my interactions with. Not saying that
my goal was to change their minds, but to do what I needed to do to be helpful or
not be attacked.
W: This year’s theme for Black Alumni Weekend is Building a Foundation for the
Gator Nation. How do you think you fit into that and being here today?
A: My best way of answering that is is that I can truly say that from my experience at
the University of Florida people who come here and work here really do have a
strong foundation to stand upon, and I say people specifically—minority folks that
has been laid by people like yourself, and other African-Americans folks who
came here way back when and really has opened the doors in many ways for a
lot of folks to be able to walk through and stand upon their shoulders, if you will.
To go and be successful themselves and make a contribution as they leave the
University of Florida throughout the world. That sounds a little philosophically
hokey, but that’s how I see it.
W: Not at all.
A: I generally have warm, good feelings about the University of Florida as an
institution and what role it can play in setting the stage for a good future for
African-American students and employees that are here.
W: Dr. Jackie Lewis Ayers on behalf of the Sam Proctor Oral History Program here
during Black Alumni Weekend at Emerson Hall I want to thank you so much for AAHP 121; Ayers; Page 19
your candor. For just your very thoughtful reflections about your academic
career, life, and your family history and everything that’s culminated in this
weekend. We really appreciate being able to speak with you. I like to close each
interview by giving the person I’ve spoken with first our thanks again for the
interview, because it’s invaluable for the future. I imagine fifty, a hundred years
from now someone listening to this, so thank you for your contribution. Then to
give you the final privilege. If there is something that you’d care to discuss or
reflect on from the interview or something that we didn’t talk about or just
something else; whatever that is at the end of those comments that will conclude
our interview today. Thank you again.
A: Let me just simply say that I’d like to thank the University of Florida for providing
me with the opportunity to meet my great wife Shirley Ayers. That would not have
happened if I had not come to the University of Florida, that in and of itself is well
worth it. Thank you.
[End of Interview.]
Transcribed by: Andre Everette
Audit-Edited by: Jennifer Romero
Final edit by: Ryan Morini, February 19, 2019