187 Business of the House JU LY 12, 1991 Res.re status quo ofrelU 188 gious shrines and places o f worship etc. {Sh. Ebrahim Sulaiman Sait] 15.29 his. [Translation] lEng/uh] ------''H I - We shall construct the temple at that very spot. RE. STEPm p m fAINING [English] STATUS QUO OF REUGIQUSJgfcM SHRINES AND PLACES OF WOR-^ So, that is the difference that SHIP AS THEY EXISTED ON 15TH Mr. Vajpayee had at that time. AUGUST, 1947 So, he always takes a constructive at- titude. We are prepared to accept MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, Shri Vajpayee totally. Shri Jaswant now, we proceed with the Private Singh had also said this. I have seen Members Business. Before we take him in close quarters in the last Lok up the Resolution of Shri Zainal Abe- Sabha also. I know he is a person of din for discussion, we have to fix the broad mind. You must understand this. time for this Resolution. When such people are there in the A time of two hours has been sug- B.J.P., I do not think why we must gested. If that is acceptable to all the not adopt an optimistic attitude. We hon. Members, then we can proceed can sit together and solve the pro- further. blems. And if the Government also joins us, then we will have better days [Translation] in future. SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA Therefore—now it is going to strike (South ): Mr. Chairman, Sir, this 3.30 P.M.—I will adjourn myself to is not an ordinary matter, its implica- continue my speech on Monday. tions are wide spread. Therefore, time limit for discussion on this item should MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sait, you be extended. are on your feet and when the dis- cussion on the Confidence Motion is MR. CHAIRMAN: Initially two resumed on Monday, you will get the hours can be fixed for the discussion. ball rolling to start. Time limit can be further extended, if the hon. Members so desire. 15.28 his. SHRI LAL K. ADVANI (Gandhi- nagar): This is such an issue, that BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE if discussion on it is restricted to two [English] hours. MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Members, [English] I have to inform the House that in the meeting with the Leaders of Par- It would have a wrong message, ties and Groups in Lok Sabha which a wrong signal altogether. It is a mat- the Speaker had taken on the 11th of ter which has been debated and dis- July, 1991, it was decided that in order cussed in the whole country. We have to facilitate early discussion of finan- seen Bills being discussed on non- cial and other business, sitting of the official days for months together. Not House fixed for Monday, the 22nd a single Resolution has ever been July, 1991 might be cancelled and completed in one day; never. It is in lieu thereof, the House might sit always spilled over to the next day. on Saturday, the 20th July, 1991. And today if we want to finish it in two hours, I would object to it. I I hope, it is all okay with the hon. would say that let every one express Members. his view points; so long as they are relevant to the point, let the debate MANY HON. MEMBERS: Yes. go on. So, my plea is that there should MR. CHAIRMAN : So. we accept be no time limit; and those who want this. to participate in the debate, they can do so. 189 Res. re. status quo of ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and plates oj 190 religious shrines worship etc.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the hon. SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: Members wish to extend the time of There should be some time limit fix- the sitting today, they can do so or ed if they wish they can spill it over to the next Friday. So, out of these SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: No. two alternatives, whatever hon. Mem- bers want that should be done. SHRI CHANDRA JEET YADAV (Azamgarh): I think what the Leader SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN of the Opposition wanted was that you (Rosera): The rule is that on one can fix the time limit for the speeches. Friday we discuss a Resolution and Also what he wanted was that there on the next Friday we discuss a Bill. should be a thorough discussion on this. This is a fact that this is a very SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA important issue. {Bankura): There cannot be an un- limited time. It may be extended half- MR. CHAIRMAN; The sense of an-hour more. So, we can finish it by the House appears to be that there 6 P.M. should be no time limit fixed. In that case, I would request the hon. Mem- [Translation] bers—because the maximum number SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. of hon. Members would like to speak— Chairman, Sir, many members of my that some time limit should be fixed party have given in writing to me, on individual members when they are and 1 have assured them that each speaking. one of them would get a chance to speak on it. There is no problem in SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: it. It has been the practice that no res- A time limit has to be fixed—three- triction of time is put on discussion on four hours non-official bills and resolutions be- cause two or two and a half hours are MR. CHAIRMAN: I request Shri not sufficient for them. If time limit Zainal Abed in to move his Resolu- is fixed to complete it. it won’t be jus- \ a o - I i..-J " lined. SHBI 7.AINAI ABFD1N fJan.i- [English] pur): I beg to move: SHRI INDER JIT (Darjeeling): 1 “This House urges upon the Gov- think on this highly sensitive issue, we ernment to take early steps to should avoid fixing a time limit. peacefully settle the dispute re- garding the shrine at Ayodhya MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe there and to enact suitable legislation is a convention that even if a time limit for preserving and maintaining is fixed, then if the hon. Members so the status quo of all religious desire, that time limit can be further shrines and places of worship as extended. they existed on August 15, 1947.” [Translation] SHRI INDER JIT: I do think that an adequate opportunity should be SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA given to all sections of the House to (South Delhi): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I speak on this particular issue. It is am on a point of order. Sir the reso- highly sensitive and as the Leader of lution which is before the House says, the Opposition said, I think we should “This House urges upon the Govern- avoid sending out wrong signals. ment to take early steps to peacefully settle the dispute regarding the shrine MR. CHAIRMAN: In that case, at Ayodhya/’ I have given notice of I think the sense of the House is that an amendment. What I have read there should be no time limit fixed. just now should be substituted by “in 13 9 Tsrcwrvni IfI Res. re. status quo of JULY 12,1991 and places o f w&rskip etc. 192 religmts shrmes

[Sh. Madan Lai Khurana] judice? I would request your consi- addition to it administrative steps deration and that of the House be- should be taken, including the acqui- cause we are involved in a substan- sition of the land of the birth place tial issue here. of Lord Rama to construct a beauti- “It is the absolute privilege of the ful temple of Lord Rama, a symbol legislature and members thereof to of national culture and dignity, respec- discuss and deliberate upon all mat- ting the sentiments of people of ters pertaining to the governance of .” the country and its people. Freedom Mt. Chairman, Sir, 1 received a tele- of speech on the floor of the House phone call at home yesterday from is the essence of Parliamentary your office saying that as the matter Democracy”. is sub judice your amendment cannot Further, if as the hon. Shri M. L. be accepted. Mr. Chairman, Sir, my Khurana has said, if it has been ruled submission is that this resolution is in all wisdom, by the Speaker, that the also about the shrine at Ayodhya... Motion is not sub judice, and if the [English] Motion is not sub judice, then an amendment to it which relates to it MR. CHAIRMAN. There is no substantially cannot be treated as sub point of order, when your amend- judice either. ment is rejected. Alternatively, if you from the Chair, [Translation] as now Shri Khurana mentioned that SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: he has given notice of an amendment Please listen to me first. My amend- if that were made as inadmissible, on ment has been rejected on the plea the ground that it i^ sub judice, then that the matter is sub judice, similarly that the main Motion which is under this resolution also falls under the consideration of the House is also out same category i.e. the matter is sub of order, because it is also sub judice. judice. If my amendment can be re- And here I refer you to page 947 of jected on the plea that the issue of Kaul and Shakdhar’s book. construction of temple is sub judice, then the matter regarding the shrine It says: at Ayodhya is also sub judice. There- “The rule whether a motion relates fore, how can this resolution be to a matter which is under adjudi- movied? As your office is saying that cation by a court of law should be this matter is sub judice. I am of the admitted or discussed in the House opinion that no discussion can take has to be interpreted strictly. While place on this issue so long as the mat- on the one hand the Chair is to ter is sub judice. ensure that no discussion in the {Engtishl House should prejudice the course of justice, the Chair is also to see SHRI JASWANT SINGH (Chittor- that the House is not debarred from garh): I am on a point of order. The discussing an urgent matter of pub- two issues that have arisen on account lic importance on the ground that of an amendment moved by the hon. a similar, allied or linked matter is Shri M. L. Khurana and the Motion before a court of law.” that is before the House relate to, what is sub judice and about admissibility. Sir, these wordings are explicit. I We are now considering two separate have further submissions to make on aspects. Firstly, what is sub judice this very point because we are consi- and relating to that is secondly, the dering two separate aspects—the ques- aspect of sub judice. I draw your at- tion of sub judice and the question tention to page 946 of Kaul and Sha- of admissibility. Now we have, on kdhar’s book on Practice and Proce- page 948. a clear specification...... dure of Parliament. What is sub {Interruptions) 193 Res. re. status-quo ASADHA 21, 1913 (.SAKA) and places of 194 of religious shrines worship etc.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Which para- Serial no. 6 says: graph are you referring to? “Rule of sub judice applies only in SHRI JASWANT SINGH: 1 am regard to the specific issues before referring to the third paragraph. It a .court. The entire gamut of the says: matter is not precluded.” “A Member, during the course of I think, the amendment moved by the his speech, is required not to refer hon. Member cannot be debarred on to any matter of fact on which a this ground. judicial decision is pending.’* Serial no. 8 says: Now, here again we are faced with a similar situation. If you rule his “Rule of sub judice has app^ea* amendment as inadmissible on the tion only during the period when ground that it is sub judice, the main the matter is under active consider- motion is also sub judice and hence ation of a court of law or courts it is inadmissible. Here again we are martial. covered by the aspect of referring to That would mean as under: a matter of fact which is before a court of law. Here, indeed, the crux 8(c) says: of a matter of fact is under delibe- “In civil suiis—From the time issues ration of a court of law. In its wisdom are framed till judgement is deliver- the Secretariat has ruled that the hon. ed.” Member Shri Madan Lai Khurana’s amendment to the motion is inadmis- This is so far as sub judice is con- sible. Therefore, I submit the main cerned. motion is also inadmissible. So far as the admissibility is con- I will come to the second aspect cerned what applies to the motion later. This is a complex matter. I applies in its entirety to an amend- started by saying that the right of Par- ment to the motion. And, therefore, if liament, the unfettered privilege of you admit the motion, you must ad- Parliament of freedom of speech can- mit the amendment to the motion. On not be curtailed on grounds of sub the other hand if you deny the amend- judice. ment to the motion, you must in jus- tice deny the motion also because MR. CHAIRMAN: 1 think the whatever applies to the motion ap- House is aware of that. plies to an amendment to that motion. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: No Sir. On page 579, we are considering the The House is not aware of the deci- question of admissibility. It says: sions that were taken by a Committee of Presiding Officers of the various ‘in order that the resolution may Houses. That Committee of Presiding be admissible it should be clearly Officers made various specific recom- and precisely expressed...... ” mendations as to how the Presiding Officers ought to apply their mind 1 do not want to lead all these aspects when it comes to determining whether because they are there. a case under consideration of the House is sub judice or not sub judice. On the question of admissibility of They laid down the recomendations amendment I refer to page 585. Here specifically. They fere all here pi’ge some conditions are given. First con- nos. 949 and 950. I do not want to dition is that an amendment to be mention all of them. But 1 do draw admissible must not be vague or in- your attention to specifically serial definite. I do not think hon. Shri nos. 6 and 8 of them. Madan Lai Khurana’s amendment is 195 Res, re. status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 196 o f religious shrines etc\

[Sh. Jaswant Singh] it is perfectly in order and we should either vague or indefinite. The second allow the discussion to take place. condition is that it should not be [Translation] negative in character. His amendment » not negative in character. Then the SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA third condition is that it should not be When did I talk of violence? 1 did unduly long. His amendment is not not say that violent means would be unduly long, because your Secretariat adopted to construct the temple there. has said that the only ground on which My submission is that peaceful solu- it has been rendered inadmissible is tion should be found out to construct sub judice. Then the other condition the temple there. When you rejected is that it should not seek to widen the my amendment then only I talk of the scope of the discussion. It does not; construction of temple there. in fact, it focuses it. Then the other condition is that if an amendment pro- SHRI EBRAHIM SULMMAN poses to raise an altogether new sub- SAIT (Ponnani): Where will the tem- ject beyond the scope of the resolu- ple be constructed? tion, it is out of order. It is not an SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: altogether new subject. It is. in fact, At the same place. (Interruptions) The within the scope, concentrating the Government of has scope. The other condition is that if decided the issue. the substance is the same as the ori- ginal resolution, then again it is out [English] of order. Here also the subject is not the same subject because it is an SHRI BHOGENDRA JHA amendment focussing the issue. So (Madhubani): Mr. Khurana can have his say but the objection raised by my none of these conditions apply to the friend is misplaced. amendment that has been moved by the hem. Member, Shri Madan Lai SHRI P. M. SAYEED (Lakshad- Khurana. Your Secretariat has found weep): For the benefit of the House Ac amendment moved as out of order I want to read this Resolution. It says: on ground of sub judice. I submit that this is an admissible amendment “This Houses urges upon the Gov- which must be admitted. If, however, ernment to take early steps to you rule it out on the ground of sub peacefully settle the dispute regard- judice, them you must rule out the ing the shrine at Ayodhya and to main motion as out of order. enact suitable legislation for preser- SHRI SA1FUDDIN CHOUDHURY ving and maintaining the status quo (Katwa): One point has been raised of all religious shrines and places of that the main motion should also be worship as they existed on August declared as out of order. In the main 15, 1947.” motion it is said that the dispute re- Sir, there are two separate views. garding the shrine at Ayodhya should First part of the Resolution calls for be settled peacefully. So peace cannot a peaceful settlement and the second be sub judice. What should be the part of the Resolution, if you kindly right of this House and every Mem- go through it, urges the Government ber of this House is to exhort peonle to bring a suitable legislation for all of our country to settle this dispute the shrines that existed as on 15 peacefully. It means either through August, 1947. I do not know how it negotiation or abiding by the court comes. verdict. There the problem arises. There is no attempt made to dictate MR. CHAIRMAN. Hon’ble Mem- any terms to any court or try to influ- bers, I think, we have heard every- ence any court It is perfectly in order body’s point of view. There are two and it is the need of the hour that or three issues. we settle the dispute peacefully. So (Interruptions) 197 Res. rc. status quo ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 198 of religious shrines worship etc.

[Translation] They want to stop the puja of the idols, which is being performed since SHRI RAM NAGINA M1SHRA 1950. (Interruptions) (Padrauna): Mr. Chairman, Sir, with regard to the amendment brought for- Therefore, I want to say that an ward by Shri Khurana the Ministry has idol has already been installed there intimated that the matter is sub judice on the orders of the Faizabad Sessions and as such it cannot be admitted. Court in 1950 and puja is being per- Secondly, the Resolution which is on formed there since then. They want to the same subject is also sub judice. remove the idols through this Resolu- The subject is the same. (Interrup- tion. It is not proper. (Interruptions) tions) SHRI MR. CHAIRMAN: Shri Jaswant (Barrackpore): Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is Singh has already made every thing Parliament, not a ‘dharamshala (In- clear before the House. Please take terruptions) your seat. MR. SPEAKER: All of you, pleast (Interruptions) take your seats. SHRI RAM NAG1NA MISHRA: (Interruptions) Mr. Chairman, Sir, according to the [English] Resolution moved by our hon. friend, status quo should be maintained in MR. SPEAKER: Please take your respect of all places of worship as they seats...... existed on August 15, 1947. I would (Interruptions) like to submit, in this connection, that Puja is being performed in Ayodhya MR. SPEAKER: I will handle the since 1949 and in Somnath temple issue. Please sit down...... Interruptions) after 1947. ( (Interruptions) [English] MR. SPEAKER: One minute please. MR. CHAIRMAN: I am on my I will hear if the Members have to legs. I will request hon. Members to say something, and I will tike a deci- sit down. sion. Please do not get excited. Yes, {Interruptions) Advaniji. [Translation] [Translation] SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA: SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. Mr. Chairman, Sir, please let me com- Speaker, Sir, this Resolution was cir- plete. culated three to four days ago. This Resolution is not acceptable to me as 15.53 hrs. well as to my party. I did not have any objection to its admissibility. But [MR. SPEAKER in the Chair] this question arose, when one of my {Interruptions) hon. friends gave a notice for amend- ment on this very subject and it was SHRI RAM NAGINA MISHRA: rejected on the ground that the matter Mr. Speaker, Sir, my point of order is was sub judice. He was informed that that the Ayodhya dispute is sub judice. his amendment on the subject cannot (Interruptions). Both the things can- be admitted. Shri Jaswant Singh has not go along simultaneously. (Inter- said this very thing that either the sub ruptions) judice rule should apply in both the cases or it should not be made appli- SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA cable at all. No one from our side has (South Delhi): Mr. Speaker, Sir, in raised any such objection that there accordance with the court orders, puja should be no discussion on the Re- is being performed there since 1950. solution and ever demanded that it 199 J^es\ re- status quo JULY 12,1 991 and places of worship 200 oj religious shrines etc

[Sh. Lai K. AdvaniJ led to give another ruling after recon- [English] sidering the issue, it will be appro- should be declared out of order. With priate and in coniirmity with the dig- regard to the amendment, our point was nity and decorum of the office of that if the sub judice rule is to apply, speaker to revive the earlier ruling. 1 then it cannot apply only to the challenge the admissibility of this Re- amendment, it has to apply to the solution. As has already been said by Resolution also and, therefore, you our hon. leader, he did not think so. have to take a decision, give a ruling I beg your pardon Sir and with due which applies to both. respect 1 would like to submit that according to my humble view it is not MR. SPEAKER: Now you please admissible. take your seats. 1 will allow all of you one by one to express your views on this point. Yes, Lodhaji. 16.00 hrs. [Translation] [English] SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA MR. SPEAKER: 1 will allow Mem- (Poli): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I had brought bers to express their views on this a Resolution on the same subject dur- point. The short point is whether this ing one of the sessions of the Ninth matter can be taken up or not. Lok Sabha. The ruling given by your predecessor on it was that no dispute (.Interruptions) in regard to ‘Ram Janmabhoomi’ could be brought in the House in the MR. SPEAKER: 1 have called Shii form of a Resolution, because this Ahamed. matter is sub judice. 1 was informed {Interrupt ions) by the Ministry of Home Affairs that since the matter is sub judice, it can- SHRI (Arambagh): not be taken up in the Parliament. What is going on here? ihe matter This is on record. You can call for should be taken up for discussion. (In- the records from the Secretary-Gene- terruptions) ral and see the decision of your pre- decessor. Cne resolution on the sub- MR. SPEAKER: Let me hear. Then ject is disputed and other is not and I will decide. on one case it is disallowed, but ad- SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: Sir, mitted on the second occasion. There the matter is sub judtce, but there is cannot be two types of justice. I would a basic difference...... (Interruptions) like to submit that according to the rules of this House, matters which are MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Acharia, well, sub judice are not generally discussed if all of you want to transact the busi- in the House. The Treasury Benches ness according to your wish, it will be will also agree with this view. A num- very difficult. So, let us come to * ber of cases are pending in the court, conclusion; allow me to decide about out of which 11 cases have been con- that. solidated and are under consideration of a special bench of the Allahabad SHRI BASU DEB ACHARIA: We High Court. The question under their want that the discussion should start consideration is the dispute about immediately. (Interruptions) “Babri Masjid’ and ‘Ram Janmu- SHRI SAIFUDDIN CHOUDHURY: bhoomi’. 1 would like to submit that There is some confusion in the minds according to the rules of this House, of some hon. members. You will lis- in both the cases, matters, which are ten to the hon. members to decide sub judice, cannot be discussed here. about the admissibility of what? Ad- Secondly, you have already given a missibility of the amendment or motion ruling on my resolution on the same which has already been admitted? subject and on a Private Members’ ( Bill. As such, unless you are compel- Interruptions) 201 Res. re. status quo ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 202 o f religious shrines worship etc.

MR. SPEAKER: After hearing Rule 173(v) says: you I will say what T have to say. Let me hear them. Tf you have to “It shall not relate to any matter say anything T will hear you also. which is under adjudication by a When I am asking him to say some- court of law having jurisdiction in thing, why are you getting up? I will any part of India.” allow you to speak also. Here the resolution is within the SHRI E. AHAMED (Manjeri): The scope of this rule. That is why this Resolution given notice of by my has been admitted Resolution has al- learned friend. Shri Zainal Abedin ready mentioned that status quo has already been admitted by the should be maintained. Therefore, the Speaker. May I just bring to your Resolution given notice of by my kind notice Rules 173 and 174 regard- learned friend, Shri Zainul Abedin is ing the Resolutions? As per the rule, within the scope of the admissibility the Resolution was not contrary to under the rule and it has already been anything either in law or on facts. admitted, and I urge upon the Chair My learned friend Shri Jaswant Singh that the matter should be taken up has made a case that if the Resolu- for discussion. But at the very same tion is admissible, the amendment time, once a matter has already been should also be admissible. If the ordered by the Speaker as not ad- Resolution is a matter pending before missible as it is pending for decision a court of law and is sub judice, the of the court of law, it shall not be amendment should also be considered taken up and I hope the hon. Member as sub judice. If the amendment is will also abide by the Ruling given sub judice, the Resolution will also by the Speaker. be sub judice. The Resolution need not necessarily be sub judice, because SHRI : Sir, the wording of the Resolution is very I heard what Jaswant Singhji has said clear. The wording of the Resolu- about the Resolution and about the tion does not affect enything pending amendment. There is a basic diffe- before the court of law and we are rence between the Resolution and the not going into the merits of the case. Amendment. The Resolution is quite What he has given notice of is that clear and it is in order. ‘Peaceful the matter should be settled peacefully. settlement of the dispute’ is mentioned When a case is pending before the here, whereas what I have understood court, any citizen of this country can from the amendment read by Khuranaji say, the matter is to be settled peace- is that he wants to acquire the land fully. But, at the very same time, for the construction of the Ram Tem- the amendment given notice of by my ple. (Interruptions). In ordeT to learned friend, Shri Khurana relates construct the Ram Temple, that land to a particular matter relating to the should be acquired. That is there, I construction of a temple. (.Interrup- think, in the amendment. (Interrup- tions) tions). That has been referred to the court and the court is examining that SHRI E. AHAMED: When that aspect of the dispute. So, that amend- matter is pending before the court, ment is sub judice. That is why that it is the duty of every citizen of a amendment was rejected. And here civilized society to wait for the verdict the peaceful settlement of the dispute of tfre coart. But at the same time has been asked for. So, there is a my learned friend has given notice of basic dilference between the Resolu- an amendment which is for the cons- tion and the amendment. truction of temple. This is not only interfering wi€h the matter pending before the court, but is also barred SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Not so under these Rules of Procedure. The far as it is sub judice—there is no rule is absolutely clear. difference between the two. 203 Res. re. status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 204 of religious shrines etc.

SHRI BASUDEB ACHARTA: As tion not interfere with the functioning far as *sub judice is concerned, there of Courts of Law. That is the subs- is a basic difference. tance of what I submitted earlier by Then there is another point also. quoting Kaul and Shakdhar. SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I want to clarify. If, in fact, the amendment The second aspect was of admissibi- is substantially the same as the motion lity. My submission was that if the itself, then it becomes inadmissible. motion is admissible this amendment The point is that that is precisely why to the motion is also admissible. (In- it is admissible. (Interruptions). terruptions) I do not think that is the point under discussion now. The SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHAT- question is of the admissibility of an TERJEE (Dum Dum): I have great amendment moved and as was pointed respect for Jaswant Singh Ji. But he out by the leader of my party, we can point it out to us and we can are not averse to the motion being learn from him that...... discussed, but if the motion is dis- cussed then the amendment must also MR. SPEAKER: Not like this. be discussed. That is the substance of it. Then, in the Hindi List of (Interruptions) Business, the wording of the Resolu- SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHAT- tion say: TER! EE : If a Resolution is not sub judice. amendment can be sub judice. [Translation] (Interruptions) “The Ayodhya Shrine” SHRI BASUDEB A CHARI A: There is a mention of the shrine at There is also another point in the Ayodhya in it. If there is any such Resolution. The maintenance of status mention, I may submit that we have quo— that is another point in the no objection to it. A discussion is Resolution. So. the Resolution is not to be held on it. We want to have a sub judice, the contents of the Reso- discussion on it. If you are going to lution are not sub judice. It is very hold a discussion on the Resolution, much clear and it is very much in a discussion on the amendment should order. That is why it has been ad- also be held, because mention of mitted, and I request the hon. Speaker Ayodhya shrine is there in both of —the Chairman has already asked them. Shri Zainul Abedin to move the Reso- lution. So. the discussion should start [English] immediately. (Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: On one point, SHRI JASWANT SINGH. Mr. will you enlighten me? Supposing a Speaker, Sir, I may not repeat all that decision has been taken in the Secre- I have submitted to the House when tariat of the Legislature, can we dis- the Chair was occupied by Col. Ram cuss that decision on the floor of the Singh. I would submit two additional House? points for your consideration. Firstly, as has been pointed out by the leader SHRI JASWANT SINGH: I would of my party, the whole substance of leave it to the leader of my party to the law is that the executive should reply. not interfere with the functioning of the law of the land when it comes to SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. the question of Courts of Law being Speaker, Sir, as I said, it is somewhat seized of an issue; equally the execu- different from the point that Mr. tive should not interfere, the legisla- Guman Mai Lodha has raised because ture, despite the freedom that it has I was not at all aware that the Sec- of discussing anything that it wishes retariat had on an earlier occasion to, in the absolute privilege that it disallowed his resolution or motion on has to do so, must also by implica- the ground that this matter of Ayodhya 205 Res. re. status ASAHDA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 206 quo of religious shrines worship etc. is sub judice. I was not aware of MR. SPEAKER: It is not that. it. (Interruptions) My understanding So many notices are given to the of sub judice is that it is not a blan- Secretariat and decisions about their ket authority whereunder any matter admissibility are taken in the Secre- which is before a Court of Law can tariat. Supposing we are going to be shut out from discussion. It has compare the decision given in one never been interpreted that way and notice with the decision in another therefore all the interpretation includ- notice and try to decide whether the ing that of this committee of Presid- decision given in one notice is correct ing Officers had tried to narrow it or not, or decision given in one notice down very much. Therefore, it was is of the same kind of decision as surprising for me to find that this given in the other or not, this becomes particular amendment was rejected and a matter of going into the details, this amendment differs from the view going into the fact. In that case, point expressed by the mover, no each word, comma and full stop we doubt. But that mover also wants the have to consider. Is it possible for executive to intervene. There is a us to go into all these details and matter b fore the Court of Law per- come to a conclusion whether a deci- taining to the Ayodhya shrine. (In- sion taken in two cases is correct or terruptions) Let me complete. Now, not on the floor of the House? That this resolution and this mover wants is why, I was trying to understand the executive to proceed to settle the what is the practice, according to you matter peacefully as if the Court is —whether the decision taken in the not settling it. (Interruptions) Secretariat or by the Speaker can be challenged here? If you have a grie- vance, valid grievance, certainly it MR. SPEAKER: Please allow him should be rectified. But can we go to make his submission. into all those things as we go in the court of law? SHRI LAL K. ADVANI. I feel that we have every authority to tell SHRI JASWANT SINGH: The the executive to proceed in this matter fact remains that you have now even though it is before the Court of brought in two separate aspects. Hon. Law. I would not regard the sub Justice G. M. Lodha’s previous motion judice rule as coming in the way of on the same subject has been ruled discussing this resolution. But if this out on certain ground. And the amend- particular amendment has been ruled ment on the present motion has been out specifically on that ground, we ruled out on certain other ground. I ask you to review your decision. We am not going into the grounds why ask you to either review it and admit it has been ruled out. his amendment or if this ground has to be applied, it must be applied to I would submit without going into the Resolution also. (Interruptions) the motion of Hon. Justice G. M. Lodha, though it belonged to the pre- MR. SPEAKER: Please sit down. vious Lok Sabha, it becomes the pro- If you want to make your submissions, perty of Parliament. Today see for I am prepared to hear. But suppos- yourself the amendment moved by ing all of you speak at one time, it Shri Madan Lai Khurana to the becomes difficult because I have to motion. If the motion is admitted, understand it if I have to say some- then I submit in all humility that the thing. Speaker who has an unfettered right and as repository of the privileges of SHRI JASWANT SINGH; In view all of us, has the right to certainly of the fact that your question is ad- apply his mind and to consider that a dressed to me, if I recollect the ques- decision taken by the Secretariat in tion, you said: Can we in this House his name can indeed be reconsidered review what the Secretariat has done. on the floor of the House. 14- 9 LSS/NP/9J 207 Res. re. status JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 208 quo of religious shrines etc.

MR. SPEAKER: Or, in the Cham- Here the intention of this Parlia- ber, because on the floor of the House, ment is to see that this dispute should the time is very limited and it is very be settled peacefully. I see no reason difficult to go into all these details. why anyone should have objection to that. Rather, within this cover erf SHRI JASWANT SINGH: It is Parliament’s wish, every one should possible that an error of judgement strive the hardest that is possible and, has been made by the Secretariat and in this no party can be an exception the Speaker can rectify it. (Interrup- that this dispute be settled peace- tions) fully. [Translation] MR. SPEAKER: He is on a point of law, on a point of rule. Now I SHRI RAM VILAS PASWAN have called his name. (Rosera): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I com- pletely agree with Shri Aijun Singh THE MINISTER OF HUMAN RE- and there is nothing in this Resolu- SOURCE DEVELOPMENT (SHRI tion. on which people belonging to ARJUN SINGH): I wish to draw any party can have differences, be- your attention to the fact that the cause all the parties have been repea- hon. Leader of the Opposition has tedly saying that there can be only two said that if the amendment has been solutions to the problem. One is to ruled out as being not in order be- solve the problem peacefully through cause the matter being sub judice, negotiations and the other is the ac- then the resolution also has to be ceptance of the court’s verdict, with- looked at from the same angle or out any reservations, by all the con- vice versa. cerned parties. Although many people do not have any objection re- I think, for this, we will have to garding the acceptance of the court's fall back only on the wording of the decision, there is not a single person, Resolution. I can certainly, in normal who has reservations about arriving circumstances, agree that this cannot at a peaceful settlement through happen like this. But kindly look negotiations. at the wording of the Resolution. This So far as the issue raised by Shri Resolution is more or less of a dec- Madan Lai Khurana is concerned, laratory nature. It requests this Lok the acquisition of land, the construc- Sabha to suggest that the dispute tion of the temple etc, is an alto- concerning this matter is settled peace- gether different matter. You please fully. This is one part. allow a discussion on that part of the resolution which urges upon the The second part deals with the legis- Government to enact suitable legis- lation which we have already an- lation for preserving and maintaining nounced in the President’s Address. the status quo of all religious shrines and places of worship, as they existed Now so far as the first part is con- on August 15, 1947. No one has cerned, I think, in the background of any objection to it. what has gone on in this country in the last two years, we cannot shut SHRI MADAN LAL KHURANA: our eyes entirely to what has happen- Mr. Speaker, Sir, when I gave a notice ed in the country and, if this Parlia- for Amendment, I was under the ment, in its wisdom wants to say that impression that the resolution is on this dispute should be settled peace- the cards, but the previous night the fully, I do not think this intention can Lok Sabha Secretariat informed me become sub judice. But the moment that it cannot be admitted as it is you go into the issues which, by clear a matter concerning the Ram- definition or in fact, are before a cer- Janambhoomi—Babri Masjid dispute, tain court, then you will have to con- which is sub judice. Oily then I sider that is sub judice. understood the whole thing. 209 Res. re. status ASADHA 2f, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 210 quo of religious shrines worship etc.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, to put it simply, [English] if my notice for amendment is not SHRI valid because the matter raised is (Berhampore): Mr. Speaker, Sir, sub-judice, then it automatically I am on a point of order. My point means that even this resolution is not is that the Resolution has already valid. Therefore, either you admit been moved in the House. You my notice or you reject the resolu- have already rightly allowed it. It tion moved by Shri Zainal Abedin. has already been moved by the Mem- (Interruptions) ber concerned. This is my first point. My second point is that we Mr. Speaker, Sir, as far as I know, know nothing about the amendments' a ‘dispute’ takes place between two which were rejected by the Office. parties, but in this resolution, there Nor, do we know the merits or deme- are terms like the ‘Shrine at Ayodhya’. rits of the amendments. Now this There is no mention of any mosque. matter is being raised. What is Only the ‘Shrine at Ayodhya’ is men- this? We do not know about it... tioned. What I want to say is that (Interruptions) According to proce- the dispute is regarding the temple dure this Resolution has already been and the mosque, then why is it that moved by the Member concerned. only one term ‘Shrine’ is mentioned? Now, we are discussing it. That is The term ‘Mosque" too should all. This is my view. (Interrup- have been mentioned along with it. tions) Just mentioning about the ‘Shrine’ SHRI EBRAHIM SUL AIM AN won’t suffice. SAIT: Sir. this matter has to be considered in a very sober manner. Now, as Shri Ram Vilas Paswan This House is seized of this Resolu- has said to acquire the land. I would tion. This Resolution was approved like to make it clear that I had men- by the Secretariat, was given per- tioned it keeping in mind, the ordi- mission to by yourself and the nance issued by the Government Chairman permitted Shri Zainal Abe- headed by the then Prime Minister din to move the Resolution. In Shri V.P. Singh. Now, if this resol- fact, the Resolution has already been ution is accepted, it would be a moved. But this amendment was blatant interference in the affair of sought to be moved after the Resolu- judiciary because the temple was tion was moved...(Interruptions) This already there and the idol was amendment has been rejected. So. installed there after 1950 with the this amendment cannot be discussed. consent of the sessions court. More- Therefore, it cannot be considered over, if the resolution is moved, it also. They should understand the' would tantamount to contempt of basic difference between an amend- the Faizabad Sessions Court. ment and the main Resolution. They just say that they want a peace- Mr. Speaker, Sir, I would like to ful settlement. Now the ques- say that this resolution, if accepted, tion of disputed land has been will have far reaching repercussions. raised, which is in the court of law. The temple has been there since 1950 Two basic issues are raised which are and k would have far reaching conse- quite different. So, this amendment quences. Therefore, 1 would like cannot be discussed. Therefore, this to submit that this is a very sensitive Resolution should be discussed im- resolution and before taking a deci- mediately now. (Interruptions) sion on it on the floor of the House SHRI SHARAD DIGHE (Bom- itself, the Government should call a bay North Central): Mr. Speaker. meeting of all opposition leaders, be- Sir, there is the point of practice cause the people are not going to procedure that is involved in this tolerate the removal of an idol which matter. An amendment was sent by was installed long back in 1950. a Member and that has been rejected 211 Res. re. status JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 212 quo o/ religious shrines etc.

[Sh. Sharad Dighe] MR. SPEAKER: Now I am The consequence is that it has not giving my decision. been circulated to us at all. Not a (Interruptions) single Member knows what is the SHRI RAM KAPSE (Thane): amendment. The point whether the Please allow me. amendment which was rejected was proper or not, if that is allowed to MR. SPEAKER: Sc many others be discussed in the House, it will lay are also there. down many bad practices. Many Members sent so many amendments SHRI RAM KAPSE: I have to so many Resolutions and Bills and been trying for an hour. The Spea- they are rejected. If a Member dis- ker has every authority to review the cusses this point every time why that decision in the House also. (Interrup- is rejected, it will be a waste of time tions). of this House and it will set a bad precedent. Therefore, in such cir- MR. SPEAKER: I will give you cumstances, the Member affected time to speak. ought to have seen you and discussed (Interruptions) with you why that has been rejected. He should have asked you to review SHRI RAM KAPSE: Actually, the matter by trying to convince the there are two parts of the Resolution. hon. Speaker. That has not been We do not disagree with the first part. done. And for the last one hour There is another part of the Resolu- time of the House has been taken tion that there should be a legislation away regarding whether this amend- maintaining the status quo as it exist- ment was properly rejected or not. ed on 15th August, 1947, which goes at the root about the dispute site. This opens up an issue which is before the court. If the amend- Then as far as the merits are con- ment is sub-judice then this date, the cerned, the Resolution is properly 15th August, 1947 will not lead to in order because what is sub-judice any settlement of the dispute but will has to be seen. What is sub-judice create many problems. That is con- is, whether that property is for that tradictory: that is sub-judice. {In- Mandir or Masjid. to whom does it terruptions). My request to you would belong to, whether we should be be to please review the decision. allowed to enter there and do pooja or not. These matters are sub-judice. MR. SPEAKER: Can I do that? Now the Resolution suggests only the Government to take steps to settle SHRI RAM KAPSE: Yes, you the dispute or to bring legislation in as^ a Speaker has the right. (Inter- this House. That is not settling the ruptions). dispute in one way or the other, whereas, the amendment seeks, if [Translation] I may say so. to decide the dispute in one way, namely, to acquire the SHRI DEVENDRA PRASAD land, build the Mandir and that way YADAV: Mr. Speaker, Sir. my demolish the mosque and that will point of order is that there cannot decide the dispute in spite of the fact be a discussion on the merits and de- that it has been left to the judiciary. merits of a Private Members’ Resolu- Therefore, that is absolutely out of tion that has been listed in the List order and sub-judice. But as far as of Business which has been accepted Resolution is concerned, it is not by you. A new precedent is being sub-judice and moreover, this practice set. You should allow a discussion of considering the objection to the only on a Resolution listed in the rejection of the amendment ought not List of Business. So far as the ques- to be allowed in the House at all. tion of the amendment is concerned. 213 &es- re• ^atus ASADHA 21, 1913 {SAKA) and places of 214 quo of religious shrines worship etc. it is not there before the hon. Mem- pronounce on the admissibility of the bers. (iInterruptions) amendment on the basis of wnether it is subjudice or not, well I would have MR. SPEAKER: Well, 1 would to apply my mind. 1 am paying at- like to compliment the Members for tention to what the hon. Members are taking so much interest in the inter- saying, at the same time reading it, pretation of the Rules of Procedure. at the same time reading the law and Now. if you are very particular about coming to the decision. Such a deci- the interpretation of the Rules of sion is likely to be wrong also. To be Procedure, it will help all of us be- correct, I think the procedure laid cause we would be exact and correct. down and followed generally is that For this you should all be compli- whenever any Member has any objec- mented. tion to the admissibility or non-admis- sibility of a notice or an amendment The short point before us is that or anything which is given to the there is a Resolution which is circu- Secretariat, it is not generally discuss- lated. The words of the Resolution ed on the floor of the House; it is are known to the Members. But the discussed in the Chamber and there words in the amendment given are we take decisions patiently. not known to the Members and yet we are discussing it. Again the ques- I would like to request you; 1 have tion is that there are so many amend- tried to see and I have tried to assess ments given and the decisions are the wording of both these things and taken in the office. Supposing we dis- then I find that different interpreta- cuss the decisions given on the amend- tions can be given on these things. ments given in the office, then the Moreover it is not disclosing any entire time will be consumed by us secret to you. But the file says so on discussing whether the order of many other things also—the scope of not admitting is correct or not. In a the amendment and other things. It court of law at the time of admission is not only on that amendment being itself there are arguments on both subjudice or not, it is a question of sides. But that kind of procedure is the scope of the amendment. If it is not available here because we are beyond the scope of the Resolution, transacting a lot of business. That is it has to be seen whether it is admis- why the convention, the procedure sible or not. But wrhile communicat- followed by us is that any decision ing probably only one thing has been taken by the Secretariat is not dis- communicated; but in the "file there cussed on the floor of the House. are so many other things also. So That decision is discussed in the this is a kind of matter which if we Chamber itself so that you have the discuss it on the floor of the House time and you have the patience also. complications arise. Only one or two Members will be sitting there discussing each word, {Interruptions) every comma and full-stop and then one can come to the correct conclu- MR. SPEAKER: Now I would sion. request you; we are interested in dis- cussing the things and we are not In this case it has become very interested in settling out anything clear. Both the things are before me. here. We are interested in doing This file had not come to me, it need things in a correct manner also. not come to me because the decision is taken at the Secretariat level and Now may I request that let us pro- yet the Speaker is responsible for that: ceed with the discussion on the Reso- I am not denying it. But having not lution? As far as the decision on read all those things, having not the amendment is concerned, I will assessed the meaning of each word apply my mind in my office. used in the Resolution and in the amendment, supposing if I want to (Interruptions) 215 Res. re. status JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 216 quo of religious shrines etc.

MR. SPEAKER: Now the mover livelihood of the people are sidelined. may continue with his speech. Similarly the political problems re- lated to the unity and integrity oi the ['Translation] country are becoming less important. *ZAINAL ABEDIN: Mr. Chair- man, Sir, the country is passing But the question is who are the through a terribly difficult time. The people killed in the communal riots? economic crisis is assuming an alarm- What are their identities? They may ing turn. The country is over bur- be Hindus or they may be Muslims, dened with foreign debt The num- their foremost identity is, that they ber of closed and sick industries has are Indians. And the resources we been increasing with an alarming pro- have lost, are the resources of India. portion. Today lives of millions of The intrusion of religion into poli- poor and the middle class people are tics is not new in Indian politics. topsy turvy due to price rise of stag- Communal riot is also not new. But gering dimension. The foreign ex- prior to eighties riots were the out- change reserve is warning. The defi- come of some stray incidents. Since cit in the balance of payment in the beginning decade of 80 there has foreign trade has been gradually in- been an organised planned attempt creasing. One can hear the laments to poison the relation of these com- of millions of unemployed in every munities. This was not seen during household. On the whole the eco- post independence period. Today the nomic crisis has turned the whole communal problem has assumed a country in a very pathetic situation. national character. It was not so Side by side the ugly face of seces- before. Here it is a matter of ap- sion issue in Jammu and Kashmir and prehension. Punjab has posed as a great danger ‘br unity of the country. In this poli- The centre-point is the communal tical and economic crisis, the people question today is of the birth place of expect that all responsible political Ram and Babri Masjid. The whole parties will face the challenge un- country has been engulfed by this compromisingly. But it is a matter religious sentiment and it has become of regret that the recent communal a centripetal question. We are losing situation in the country has reach- the sense of propriety% values and lo- ed such a stage that a healthy and gicality. If communal situation is conscious mind, the mind of every it Flowed to continue like this for the patriot feels concerned for this pathe- sake of temple and mosque, then I tic turn of events. In the near past have apprehension that ultimately we the mutual distrust, the mutual hatred will lose our identity as Indian. In- and animosity between the two main stead we will be branded as Hindu communities Hindu and Muslim, have or Muslim. Sikh or Christian only. been responsible for many communal riots, which have cost so many lives 16.44 hrs. [SHRI SHARAD DIGHE in the country. The resources of the in the Chair] country have also suffered terribly for this communal outburst. But how this situation was created? Who is responsible for this? This There is polarisation of people on situation is the outcome of using re- the basis of religion. It is but natural ligion for politics. This has been the that everybody is concerned about outcome of making religion as a com- this problem. Since our attention is modity in the market of politics. focussed on this single problem of Theue is a vicious move to pull the multitude dimension, the economic chariot oi politics by the horse of re- problem related to daily needs and ligion. ♦Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengali 217 Res. re. status ASADHA, 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 2J8 quo of religious shrines worship etc.

It is a matter of regret that B.J.P. blies, the danger signal to secularism has considered to make the question and national unity has increased to a of temple and mosque their central large extent. Because the BJP slogan issue in election. By keeping this of destroying or shifting Babri Masjid central issue in the forefront B.J.P. and constructing the temple of Ram and its allied organisations have rais- has raised the religious sentiment of ed the religious sentiment of one par- the people to a new dimension. (In- ticular community to such a height terruptions) that it has created an atmosphere of panic and fear in the mind of another [English] community resulting in the weaken- MR. CHAIRMAN: Please re- ing of very basis of secularism. (In- sume your seats. terruptions) [Translation] [English] SHRI BHAGWAN SHANKAR MR. CHAIRMAN: Do not ob- RAWAT (Agra): Mr. Chairman, struct him. Let him speak. Sir, we should talk about peaceful solution to the problem but he is [Translation] making provocative utterance. (In- terruptions) ♦SHRI ZATNAL ABEDIN: The other so-called secular parties are also [English] following the policy of compromise MR. CHAIRMAN: Whatever he with the fundamentalists to serve their is speaking, he is speaking on the petty political self interest. {Inter- Resolution. He has got the freedom ruptions) of speech. You can put forward your point when you speak. [English] (Interruptions) MR. CHAIRMAN: You may not like what he speaks but you will [Translation] have to hear him. SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA (Pali): Mr. Chairman, Sir, the con- [Translation] tents of the Resolution that has been *SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: So, moved here crosses all limits...... the secularism of which we are so proud of, is utterly helpless because (Interruptions) they have failed in their role to pro- *SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: This tect secularism. partial success of BJP is arousing religious sentiments of the people has As a worker of the Leftist politics, contributed much for their victory in I am proud to declare that we are the election. They are the second the only party who are against any largest party in Lok Sabha and in kind of fundamentalism—whether it is Utfar Pradesh—the State which in- of the majority or the minority. We cludes Ayodhya—the place of Babri have been fighting uncompromisingly Masjid, they have formed their go- inside as well as outside Parliament vernment. It is a matter of appre- against this menace. hension that after the Council of We the Leftists have always taken Ministers was formed all ministers a firm stance for secularism. We went to the disputed site and they have never been infatuated by politi- took the pledge to construct the Tem- cal selfish end. ple at the controversial spot, thus defying all kinds of norms and prac- After the recently held elections of tice. The purpose is to stimulate the Parliament and some of State Assem- religious sentiments of the majority ^Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bangali. 219 Res. re. status JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 220 quo of religious shrines etc.

[Sh. Zainal Abedin] feel this to be a matter of faith. (Interruptions) community greatly and to create the sense of fear and panic among the [English] minorities. In one side, there are MR. CHAIRMAN: If there are efforts to create we have the authori- any objectionable words in his speech, tarian attitude of the majority nouri- I shall go through the record and shed by the cooperation of the Go- remove those words. Please sit down. vernment, while in the other, there is the feeling of helplessness and inferi- (Interruptions) ority complex of the minority. This MR. CHAIRMAN: You have kind of situation can never be good taken more than half an hour. You for the country. please conclude. So this is my humble submission [T ranslation'] to my BJP friends, that you have ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: So it succeeded immensely by the tactics of does not come under jurisdiction of utilising the religious sentiments of any law. If the sheer faith and feel- the people. But do not follow that ings are given more recognition than tactics any more. I do not know Constitution and Law, then secularism whether you will be benefited by this is lost into oblivion. And for those strategy. But undoubtedly it w'ill be who do not follow this particular harmful and dangerous for the coun- faith and feeling their constitutional try. Because as the emotion of rights become meaningless. (Inter- the majority is associated with the ruptions) temple of Ram, so is the emotion of minority is associated with the 400 [English] years old Babri Masjid. Equal im- MR. CHAIRMAN: Let him portance and honour should be paid complete his speech. to the religious feelings of both the communities. [Translation] There cannot be any objection to SHRT (Alipur- the construction of the temple. But duar): I am on a point of order. why it has to be built in the same Shri Advani is the leader of the op- place by shifting or destroying the position. He should direct his party mosque? It is perhaps due to the colleagues to restrain themselves and claim of BJP and its allies. The at \east aYlow other hon. members to reason perhaps is that Shri Ram was speak. If it is not done, no one bom in that very place and there was would be able to express his or her a temple which was destroyed by opinion. Therefore, I request him to Babar and a mosque was constructed. tell his party colleagues that all the (Interruptions) hon. members have got the right to express their viewpoint and they But this theory of destruction of should not be interrupted. temple and construction of mosque [English] has not been proved yet. Some of the historians have supported the opi- MR. CHAIRMAN: There is no nion while there are some noted his- point of order. torians who have opposed the idea. [Translation] The findings of Archeological survey are also contradictory and different. ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: When B.J.P. and their allied organisations we are pleading to preserve the se- are not even prepared to go by the cular policy of the country, BJP is verdict of the Court. Because they claiming to be the most secular party. ♦Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengali. 221 Res. re. status quo ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 222 of religious shrines worship etc.

Theirs is a positive secularism and have to face deterrant punishment for while others are pseudosecular. (In- defying, the Church. But ultimately terruptions) they had won. The State and the Church are completely separated now. [English] But it is a matter of regret that MR. CHAIRMAN: You please there is an attempt in our country to complete your speech otherwise I revive that medieval trend. The admi- will call the next speaker. nistration of the country is being dri- ven to the court-yard of tem- I Translation] ple and mosque. So when an im- ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: By portant political activity like elec- secularism we mean complete aliena- tioneering starts, we find the so- tion or segregation of politics from called secular leaders also gather religion. Religion is a personal mat- either in the temple or in mosque. ter and politics cannot be mixed with (Interruptions) religion. (Interruptions) [English] 17.00 hrs. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have given him five minutes. Those five minutes [English] have alread been over. You have MR. CHAIRMAN: I would req- taken a lot of time. Let us allow uest the Hon’ble Member to complete o‘hers also to speak. the speech within five minutes. And, [Translation] 1 request other Hon. Members not to disturb the speaker please. All of you ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: I shall will get your turns. take 3-4 minutes more. The feudal system is still powerful in our coun- [Translation] try and the disturbance of the funda- mentalists is endangering the country ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: In the for this strong social base of feuda- middle ages the Church and the State lism. (Interruptions) were inseparable. The State was run by the direction of the Church. By disobeying the Church one was bran- [English] ded as traitors. MR. CHAIRMAN: Now I request you to resume your seat. Let all those SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: I would who want to support you also speak. tivfc Members ot my party to allow the hon. Member to complete ( Interruptions) his speech but I would like to requ- [Translation] est the House through you that on this issue we want a peaceful solu- ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: What tion to the problem but at the same is the true identity of the BJP secula- time the words like traitors...(Inter- rism? To them and Indian- ruptions) ness are synonymous. They feel until you embrace Hindutva, you cannot be [English] an Indian. If you embrace Hindutva, MR. CHAIRMAN: Please listen. that will be the most positive secu- If he has used any unparliamentary larism. expressions, I will expunge them. [English] [Translation] MR. CHAIRMAN: Now I request ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: Many you to resume your seat. Let all those men of genious, scientists, philospher who want to support you also speak. ♦Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengali. 15—9 LSS/ND/9! 223 Res. re. status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places of 224 of religious shrines worship etc.

[Tramktikml election manifesto—For BJP it is purely a national issue. So the pro- *SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: That blem should be solved on national is, they want the minority to be the level. But BJP was not voted into carbon-copy of the majority. But they are forgetting the fact that India power on national level? (Interrup- is a multi-lingual country. (Interrup- tions) tion) {English] [English] MR. CHAIRMAN: Please con- MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down. clude. Please sit down. That is enough. I have given you a lot of time. [Translation] (Interruptions) ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: Then SHRI NIRMAL KANTI CHAT- they would have occupied the treasury TERJEE (Dum Dum): He has not benches. If by chance after election been given sufficient time because he in Punjab, the Sikh fundamentalists, is the mover of the Resolution. come to power and claim the same logicality which the BJP are claiming MR. CHAIRMAN: I have been . Interruptions) ringing the bell for the last ten mi- nutes. [English] (Interruptions) [Translation] MR. CHAIRMAN: Do not record hereafter. *SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: It is the country of many religion. Unity (Interruptions) in diversity is the speciality of India. People belonging to different linguis- [Translation] tic group, to different religion are Indian preserving their separate en- ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: ...... tity of language, culture and religion. then will the BJP have any moral So any attempt to deprive them of right to fight the sikh fundamenta- their separate identity is harmful for lists? Again if the Muslim militants the unity of the country. in Jammu and Kashmir somehow come to power after the election is BJP claims that the people have held and claim that the peoples’ ver- voted them in power so as to cons- dict is in their favour reflecting their truct the temple of Ayodhya. (Inter- wish that the people of Kashmir ruptions) should go out of India as the mili- [English tants are demanding now, what role I the BJP will play then? MR. CHAIRMAN: I can give you one minute more. The Congress© has declared in [Translation] its election manifesto that they would try to solve the dispute of mosque ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: So it and temple through negotiated settle- is the duty of the minority to honour ment and they would arrange to pre- the verdict of the majority reflect- serve and maintain the status quo of ed in election. But the question all other shrines and places of wor- is whether the problem of temple ship as they existed on August 15, and mosque is the problem of U.P. 1947. The same view is expressed in only, or is it a national problem? It the manifesto of the National Front is BJP who has declared in their ...(Interruptions)... ♦Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengali. 225 Res. re. status quo ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places* tif 226 of religious shrines worship etc. MR. CHAIRMAN: Don’t record rely either on hearsay or are guided anything further. by their own sentiments. Sir, I would ♦SHRI ZAINAL ABEDIN: We, like to ask you only one thing.....;; the leftist parties also are in favour of. (Interruptions) this and it is reflected in our mani- MR. CHAIRMAN: Please don’t festo also. So it is clear that all the disturb. Resume your seat. major parties in Parliament except BJP are of the same opinion in this SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA regard. I am happy to say that the DIKSHIT: In this august House very President has also expressed the same often a reference is made that this view in his Address. If this trend of issue is sub judice. A reference is demolishing mosque and temple goes often made to suit No. 12 of 1961, on, our secular set up will be destro- filed by Sunni Central Board Of Trust. yed. So I appeal to ail parties of In that suit it has been alleged that this august House to adopt my reso- on the night of lution unanimously to fulfil the com- mitment we had made to the people. [English] This will help us to pay absolute at- December 22 and 23, 194.9, some tention to the economic prices as well Hindus forcibly and surreptitiously as the political menace the country is entered into their Mosque and confronted with. With tl?^se words I placed the idol of Shri Ram conclude. therein and are worshipping there from that time. Is it conceivable that [English] if a Mosque had been occupied for- MR. CHAIRMAN: Motion moved: cibly and surreptitiously, on the night between December 22 and 23, 1949. “This House urges upon the Go- the suit for that should have been vernment to take early steps to filed on December 18, 1961? Eleven peacefully settle the dispute re- years, eleven months and twenty-six garding the shrine at Ayodhya days after the alleged incident ! These and to enact suitable legislation are the facts which can be verified. for preserving and maintaining the status quo of all religious [T ranslation] shrines and places of worship as All these facts can be verified from they existed on August 15, the files in the court. Then you can 1947- well imagine the case. Very interest- Now I will call upon one hon. ing facts are before us. Some mosque Member from BJP to speak. was occupied forcibly and surreptiti- ously by some body and the suit for Shri Shreesh Chandra Dikshit the alleged incident was filed after eleven years, eleven months and {Translation] — r ^ 4 'i twenty-six days...(Interruptions)... yes, SHRT SHREESH CHANDRA the suit was filed before the expiry Dl KSH 1T ( Varanasii: Mr. Oiairman, of twelve years so as to ensure the Sir, I fully agree on one point with maintainability of the suit not being the Member who was speaking prior affected by the expiry of period of to me when he says that it is a na- twelve years and I claim that not a tional problem. People’s sentiments single application was filed by any of are also linked with this problem apart our Muslim brethren against the for- from various aspects including the cible occupation of thdr mosque from legal aspect. Therefore, it would the night of 22/23 December, 1949 be better if we apprise ourselves a to 18 December 1961. These facts little of the facts of the issue since can be ascertained from the files of we find that the people, who speak the court. on the Ram Janmabhoomi issu^, (Interruptions) ♦Translation of the speech originally delivered in Bengali. 227 Res. re. status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 228 of religious shrines etc.

SHRI PIUS TIRKEY (Alipurd- [English] war): No doubt But the Mosque was there. SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- JEE (Bolpur): Which part of the re- SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA solution are you opposing?... {Inter- DIKSHIT: That is what I am trying ruptions) to tell you, please first listen, you are referring to the mosque and I am try- SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA ing to prove the same. Please give DIKSHIT: I am not opposing any me a patient hearing and 1 shall give part of the resolution. I am trying the facts. (Iinterruptions) to find a solution to this problem... (Interruptions) The hon. Member who was speak- ing just now from your side had every SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- opportunity to express himself and JEE: Sir, he says that he is not opp- when we suggest anything on behalf osing the resolution. So, let us pass of B.J.P. to solve the problem, you this resolution unanimo usly... (Inter- do not allow us to express ourselves ruptions) and stop us abruptly. I am trying to pinpoint the facts. Unless you under- SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA stand the problem clearly you cannot DIKSHIT: Sir, I will read out the solve it. It is important to understand Order of the Civil Judge, Faizabad, all the facts related to the problem. which was passed on 16th January 1950...{Interruptions) [English] SHRI EBRAHIM SULAIMAN If you do not understand the facts, SAIT (Ponnani): You quote the if you do not know what the facts are, Order of the Allahabad High Court how will you solve the problem? ...{Interruptions) SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- DIKSHIT: I will quote the order of JEE (Bolpur): Facts, as you see. the High Court, Allahabad also. SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA First, I will quote the order of the DIKSHIT: Facts as given by the Civil Judge, Faizabad. It says: court of law. “The interim injunction was passed SHRI SOMNATH CHATTER- by Civil Judge, Faizabad on 16th JEE: In which you have no faith. January 1950. The parties are hereby restrained by means of tem- [Translation] porary injunction to refrain from removing the idol in question from First listen to the whole thing. If the site in dispute and from inter- you go by the judgement, you will rea- fering with the pooja, etc. as at pre- lize, the facts. Instead allegations are sent carried on.” {.Interruptions) being made against us that we are not prepared to accept the verdict of the court. Sir, the problem is very SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BAN- old and nothing has been done till SAL (Chandigarh): My submission is date. Vishwa Hindu Parishad had that the resolution refers to what taken up this case, the B.J.P. emerged should be our course of action in on die scene at a very late stage. coming to an amicable settlement. Please see the order of the court. My hon. friend is referring to the merits of the case and those are sub Sir, this is the order of the court. judice. I think, these should not be ...(Interruptions) referred to (Interruptions) 229 Res. re. status ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 230 quo of religious shrines worship etc.

SHRI GUMAN MAL LODHA: There was a lock. We approached Unless you know the merits of the all and said that it was contempt of case how can you find a solution... court as the Hindus had an unfette- (Interruptions) red right of worship. How was it locked? But no one listened to us and SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA ultimately we were compelled to say DIKSHIT: You have already said that we would launch a peaceful agi- that the peaceful solution is possible tation to unlock that place if the in two ways, either by the negotiation lock was not removed. or through a court of law.. .(Inter- ruptions) This injunction was confir- [English] med by the Civil Judge on 3rd March 1951 and on an appeal to the High On 1st of February, 1986—it is a Court—which my friend was referr- material date—on an application by ing to—this Order was upheld by the an advocate, Mr. Umesh Chand Allahabad High Court vide its judge- Pandey, in the Court of District ment dated 26th April 1955 by Chief Judge, Faizabad, he said that: “I Justice Mr. Mootham and Mr. Justice am a devout Hindu. I went to pray Raghuvardayal and it continues' to in Ram Janam Bhumi. There is a operate till date. Now the Hindus are court injunction prohibiting the other worshipping there. party from interfering in my right of worship. In spite of that I am not [Translation] permitted to go inside the temple. The District Judge called the District We are offering prayers there under Magistrate and the Senior Superinten- the order of Court. The Civil Judge dent of Police in his court and recor- issued an interim injunction which ded their statements. It is an open was confirmed by a Senior Judge and file which anybody can see. He asked: the High Court dismissed the appeal which was filed against that injunc- [Translation] tion. We are not offering prayers there through use of force rather we Yes, there is a lock, why and with are doing that on the basis of the whose order it was locked. We do court’s order. not know. We are often asked to resolve the [English] issue by accepting the court’s verdict or through negotiations. So, Sir. we They could not cite any authority want to show you that in this parti- as to why this lock was there and cular case the proverb “the thief they could not justify whether this threatens the policeman” has come lock was at all necessary for main- true. We are abiding by the judge- tenance of law and order or for main- ment of the Court and yet it is being tenance of peace in that area. It was said that we are not abiding by the on that day i.e. 1st February, 1986 judgement of the court. that the District Judge, faced with this application of Shri Umesh Chand SHRI EBRAHIM SULAIMAN Pandey, the statements of District SAIT: Which order of the court you Magistrate and SSP and the standing are following? judgment of the Allahabad High Court thaf Hindus have an unfettered right SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA of worship, ordered opening of the DIKSHIT: Even after that there was lock. You will be surprised to know a lock. Despite the court’s judge- that the Babri Masjid Action Com- ment, which gave us the right to wor- mittee came into being as a result of ship there, somebody locked that the protest to that judgement. There place. We tried all methods, but it was no Babri Masjid Action Com- was not unlocked.. .(Interruptions) mittee before 1st Febraury, 1986. 16—9 LSS/ND/91 231 Res. re status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 232 of religious shrines etc.

[Sh. Shreesh Chandra Dikshit] in power. We were helpless as we [Translation] were put into jail at that time. The Babri Masjid Action Committee [English] was constituted against the Judicial Verdict of the 1st February, 1986, Sir, I would like to mention one and thereafter a rally was held on factor here. After the 30 October, the Boat Club. The Resolutions 1990, the whole complexion of this passed in that rally were horrifying. movement has changed. They gave a call to boycott the Re- public Day on 26th January, 1987. [Translation] [English] After the blood-shed, that took place during the Ayodhya massacre, in On 1st February, 1987 i.e. almost which innocents were butchered, the one year after the passing of the judi- whole complexion of this movement cial verdict by the court of law, changed in the same manner as the they announced Bharat Bandh. Those freedom movement under went a people who were talking about taking change after the Jalian Wala Bagh the matter to the court took the incident. We have made every effort matter to the streets. And the quarrel in this regard. I will just present the started. That judgment of the Dis- documents before those who are talk- trict Judge still stands. ing about the negotiated settlement. Now it is upto you to see as to how [Translation] the negotiated settlement can take If that judgement was wrong than place. The police has power to resort why did not any court reject that to fire if the mob becomes violent and judgement during those 6-7 years. We unruly and begins a scuffle or indulges have nowhere done anything which in sabotage. But we did not break is against the law. even a single bulb there. There are many other mosques in Ayodhya. [English] This is not the only Masjid which they call Masjid. Namaz is offered five When we decided to lay the founda- times in a day in all the Masjids of tion stone of Shri Ram Janam Bhumi Ayodhya. 10-20 lakh Hindus assem- temple and it was moved in the hon. ble there or the occasion of festivals. Supreme Court saying that the shila- Can any one of the Muslim brothers niyas, shila yatra and shila puja should say if we ever threw even a single be banned, there is order judgement brick on any of the mosques there. of the Supreme Court which said Out of the total population of nearly that it is an exercise of the Funda- 50 thousands of Ayodhya the number mental Rights guaranteed in the of the Muslims is about one to one Constitution. We have nowhere done thousand five hundred. Can any one anything which is against the law. say that we have harmed the Muslim And‘yet at every stage it is being brothers living there. (Interruptions) said that we are the people who are The question does not arise. We had not abiding by the judgement of the no intention to demolish the Masjid, court. there are so many other Masjids [Translation] where Namaz is offered all the time. It is true and historically proved that Maintaining the status quo order a no Muslim has ever offered Namaz canopy was installed at the site of at that place since 1934. According the “Shilaniyas”, which was removed to the Shariat Law, as has narrated by Shri Mulayam Singh. And even to us, the ‘KHUDA’ does not accept then they are talking about the status the Namaz offered in the Masjid quo now. That was built there again which has been constructed on a land' after our coming to power. It was acquired forcibly. Archaeological and wrong, it was done when they were historical records proved that there 233 Res. re status quo ASADHA 21,1913 (SAKA) and places of 234 of religious shrines worship etc.

was a magnificient temple, built by attended by the Union Minister of Maharaja Vikramaditya on that spot. State for Home Affairs Shri Suboth 1 possess here the archaeological find- Kant Sahay, Chief Minister of Uttar ings regarding that place. These Pradesh Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, archaeological findings and historical Chief Minister of Shri evidences are also given by foreign and Chief travellers. The foreign historians also Minister of , Shri Sharad support that these things were present Power. All the people present in the on that place. I can present before meeting appealed to the countrymen you, the innumberable evidences of that maintenance of peace is our the Muslim Historians and writers. A national responsibility, so without committee was constituted. The com- being influenced by rumours we should mittee asked both the parties to sub- assist in the maintenance of peace. mit the evidential documents in their Today’s meeting then concluded.'* possession and have talks. We sub- mitted all these evidences before that Another similiar meeting was to be committee also. held on the ensuing 4th December. Everybody held the view that all Negotiated settlement was also sug- attempt would be made to find a gested. Previously during the Cong- peaceful solution to the problem. Fin- ress Government we tried our best to ally on 4th December, the meeting meet Shri Vir Bahadur and when he was held and almost the same people did not agree, the case was decided participated in that meeting, whose in the court. At the time of *Shila- names I have already read out. At nyas Shri Buta Singh was our Home the end of the meeting it was said— Minister. We met him several times. “A joint meeting of Vishwa Hindu We placed all the facts before him Parishad and Babri Masjid Action and he had to accept ultimately that Committee was held today the 4th of the site of ‘Shilanyas was not a dis- December, 1990 in Maharashtra puted area at all and we performed. House, in which both the parties pre- ‘Shilanyas’ there. Subsequently, when sented their views very clearly and Shri Chandra Shekhar came to power, it was unanimously decided that all a committee was constituted, and it the documentary evidence be sent to was decided that some experts from the Minister of State for Home Affairs, both the sides would sit together and Shri Subodh Kant Sahay by 22nd analyse the facts and evidences and December, 1990. Minister of State would arrive at a decision. First for Home Affairs will provide the meeting for the so called negotiat- copies of all the facts and material to ed settlement was held on 1-12-1990 all concerned. Both the parties will in which Mr. Azamkhan, Mr. Afzal. review the documentary evidence and Mr. Shahecd-ud-Din Ashraf, Shri meet again in the Maharashtra House Salahuddin Owaisi, Shri Zafaryar Jee- on 10th January, 1991 at 10 a.m.” lani, Shri Javed Habib, Shri Ahmad Then on 23rd again a meeting was Siddiqui and on behalf of Vishva held and it was decided that we would Hindu Parishad Shri Kaushal Kishore. present the papers, and those papers myself, Acharya Giriraj Kishore, Shri were exchanged by both the parties. Badri Prasand Toshniwal, Shri Vishnu Following is the commentary of the Hari Dalmai, Shri Bhanu Prasad government on it. 1 read it out: Shukla and Shri Moropant Ji Pingley participated. 1 read out the decesion [English] taken in that meeting; “A joint meet- ing of the representatives of Shri Rama “Both the VHP and the AIBMC sub- Janam Bhoomi Kar Seva Samiti, mitted rejoinders on the due date, Rama Janam Bhoomi Trust and that is, 6-1-1991. The Minister of Babri Masjid Action Committee was Home Affairs exchanged them on held in the Maharashtra House today, 8-1-1991. The VHP submitted the the 1-12-1990. This meeting was rejoinder in which it tried to refute 235 Mes. re. status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places o f worship 236 of religious shrines etc.

{Sh. Shreesh Chandra Dikshit] MR. CHAIRMAN: Please com- plete all the points within five minutes. claims of the AIBMC point-wise. The AIBMC did not react to the (Interruptions) evidence put forward by the VHP. Instead, it submitted photo copies of SHRI LAL K. ADVANI: Mr. some more evidence in support of its Chairman, Sir, you are right. First, it claim. SSnce the AIBMC did not give is his maiden speech and secondly... comments on the evidence put for- [English] ward by the VHP, it is not possible for the Government to decide the He is speaking to the point and areas of agreement or disagreement.” very relevant points he is making. I would plead with you to be indulgent The decision was taken on 6th in this case and let him present his January, 1991. After that another case. meeting was held. MR. CHAIRMAN: How much [English] time he wants? MR. CHAIRMAN: Please wind SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- up now. SHIT : This is a subject on which we must know the full facts. SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- MR. CHAIRMAN: You can speak SHIT : 1 cannot wind up because the for five minutes. subject is so vast. The subject has got archaeological, historical, legal, [Translation] social, moral and political angles...... SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- (Interruptions). SHIT: You would like to know as to what was decided on the negotiating So, I have to take a little longer table. We handed over all the docu- time. ments and replied all the questions (Interruptions) raised in their documents. After that MR. CHAIRMAN: Whatever it people representing the other side handed over a paper and left and that is, you must complete within the time. paper said: (Interruptions) [English] SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- SHIT: I am sure the House will ac- “We need at least six weeks to ex- cept it because it is on the file. The amine the relevant files and visit people must know the facts as they Ayodhya”. are. [Translation] MR. CHAIRMAN: You may 1 said, “You came to discuss the have a lot of material, but you have case without going through the case- to place it in the House within the file, and you have not been to Ayo- limited time. I will give you now dhya and you have come here as an five minutes. expert to discuss the case”. (Interruptions) [English] SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- SHIT: In that case I would not be This is how this negotiation ended. able to put up my case...... {Interrup- We remained in that office, we wrote tions). to the Government. [Translation] [Translation] I am speaking on the first “We are sitting here and today is the part. I have yet to cover the second date for hearing. It is quite unbecom- part. ing that these people did not come even 237 Res- re. states quo ASADHA 21,1913 (SAKA) and places of 238 of religious shrines worship etc. after fixing the date for hearing. the problem. Under the circumstances, We wrote to the Government that all we were left with no option, but to the experts nominated by Vishva go there and perform the ‘Shilanyas* Hindu Parishad reached peacefully as we had already planned. Bhawan today at the appointed time iInterruptions) The important thing of 11.00 a.m. Upto 12.45 p.m. neither is that the spot, where the intended a single member of the expert group to perform the ‘Shilanyas’ is not at nominated by Babri Masjid Action all a disputed site. We have with us Committee turned up, nor any of their archaeological evidence to this effect. office-bearers came to inform us about We can show you photographs. If the cause of their absence. Yesterday you go there, you will find that ex- when the experts were divided into cavations have been carried out there. two groups. When those very people We have incorporated in our docu- with whom we were to hold negotia- ments, all the archaeological and tions, went away leaving the negotiat- historical evidence we had found there ing table, then with whom do we hold and which you too can see. If you go talks? through the opinion of Shri B. B. Lai, Shri Swaraj Prakash and others in Sir, much earlier than Shri Vishwa- the matter, you will realize that a nath Pratap Singh took the oath of the temple was there at that site and that Prime Ministership, we had already the Babri Masjid was constructed after taken a decision that on such and destroying it. such date, we would perform ‘Shilan- yas\ The hon. Prime Minister invit- Now, the most important point, we ed us for talks on 8 February, 1990. would like to make is that we have After giving us a patient hearing, he no objection to the construction of the gave us both verbal and written as- mosque, but if one is built after de- surance to the effect that the problem molishing a temple, how do you ex- would be amicably solved within four pect us to tolerate it? months. Keeping in mind his assu- rance, we did not utilise those four The second thing I would like to months to work for or propagate our submit is that everyone should seri- cause. The four-months’ time frame ously study the second part of this was proposed by the Prime Minister resolution. It calls upon the Govern- himself. He had sought four months ment to enact suitable legislation for to solve this problem, as he felt that preserving and maintaining the status it was a complicated matter. Though, quo of all religious shrines and places we had already decided our progra- of worship as they existed on August mme, yet we decided to defer the 15, 1947. The Vishwa Hindu Pari- implementation of the proposed pro- shad has demanded the restoration of gramme and give some time, in diffe- only three temples the Ram-Janam- rence to the wishes of the new Prime bhoomi at Ayodhya, the Krishna- Minister. We thought that it may Janamsthan at Mathura and the perhaps prove helpful in finding a Gyanvapi at Varanasi, but simultan- solution. We met the Prime Minister eously, the Parishad has also made it again in the month of June and in- clear if the demand for the restora- quired from him about the progress tion of these three temples are not made in this direction during the four met, then it won’t be obligatory for months’ time frame, that he himself the Parishad to restrict its claim to had laid down. We were very dis- these three shrines alone. In such appointed when we came to know that a situation, the number of such sites, no progress had been made in this can go up to any number. To date, regard. Even then, we waited for six none of us, no Hindu organisation, no months and postponed the date of nationally recognised organisation, ‘Shilanyas’ from February to 30th has staked any claim to any other October, 1990, but the Government of temple or religious site other than the day failed to find a solution of these three places. 239 Res. re status quo JULY 12, 1991 and places of worship 240 of religious shrines etc,

[Sh, Shreesh Chandra Dikshit] If such a resolution is adopted, it would provoke the Hindu Community [English] for launching an agitation across .the country for the restoration of all the If this legislation comes, it is positive- destroyed shrines like the one at ly an assault on the Hindus because it Ayodhya. Therefore, it is very im- suppresses the Hindu religion. portant that we should all ponder over it. It is not like another resolution or [Translation] enactment, which can be adopted or passed. No one is going to tolerate it. They are demanding it because they This whole issue is not that simple. know very well that Hindus have never demolished any mosque and built a temple at that site. They have 1 have said, whatever 1 had in my suggested formulation of such a law, mind. II you allow me some time later, because they are apprehensive, be- I am prepared to present all the cause they are guilty conscious. It is available evidences (Interruptions) a fact that there are many mistakes in the history. [English] [English] SHRIMATI MALINI BHATTA- CH ARY A (Jadavpur); This is a direct There are many historical errors. incitement to communal riots tInter- ruptions) [T ranslation] SHRI SRIKANTA JENA (Cut- However, once the gravity of the mis- tack): We are all representatives of takes is realized, one should try to the people. If anybody who is talking rectify these errors. In the past, the of Hinduism, is he the only spokes^ Germans apologised to the Jews (for man of Hindus? Don’t think you are the crimes committed by the Nazis), in the only spokesman of Hindus. (In- the Soviet Union the Government res- terruptions) tored the churches, which were con- verted into Godowns, Japan apologis- MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit ed to Korea and in the United States down. Order please. of America and Australia, the majo- (Interruptions) rity white community has to apologise to the natives and aborigines. If any [Translation] mistakes have been committed in the past, instead of perpetuating them, SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- one should endeavour to rectify them. SHIT : Mr. Chairman, Sir, it is alleg- It should be taken into account that ed that the issue is being politicised. when nobody has put up any demand (Interruptions) We are even called for the restoration of all the destroy- traitors. Even the charge of commu- ed temples, if this kind of Resolution nalism is levelled against us, but we is adopted, it would tantamount to are not communal, they are commu- raking up the whole issue. It would nal. (Interruptions) This resolution have serious repercussions. We should that has been moved. (Interruptions) see to it that the Vishwa Hindu Pari- SHRI SRIKANTA JENA: They shad is not compelled to launch an are not real sadhus. (Interruptions) agitation throughout the country, on the lines of the one it launched for SHRI . (Bombay- the restoration of Ram Janam-bhoomi North): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I am on site in Ayodhya. I am not issuing a a point of order. Some hon. Members warning in this regard, but I would of the Janata Dal have called some certainly like to emphasise that we hon, .Members of the Bharatiya Janata should give the issue a serious thought. Party...... (Interruptiom) 241 Res. re. status quo ASADHA 21, 1913 (SAKA) and places of 242 of religious shrines worship etc.

[English] “I am not a Hindu. I am certainly not a Muslim. The Ayodhya move- MR. CHAIRMAN: I am referring ment which wants to re-integrate to the point of order. the sacred place of Ram-Janma Bhoomi into the living Hindu tradi- (Interruptions) tion by building a Mandir on it is at the same time an invitation to [Translation] the Muslim Indians to re-integrate themselves into the society and the SHRI RAM NAIK: Mr. Chairman, culture from which their ancestors Sir, two hon. Members of the Janata were cut-off by fanatical rulers and Dal have referred to some hon. Mem- their thought police, the theologians. bers of the B.J.P. as fake sadhus. It is thus an exercise in the national This is objectionable. Isn’t it humiliat- integration.” ing to refer to hon. Members with such insulting names? It is also aginst the rules. Therefore, I object to it and raise a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Time is over. The House now stands adjourned to [English] reassemble on Monday at 11.00 hrs. SHRI ANIL BASU (Arambagh): He should apologise. (Interruptions) 18.00 hrs. SHRI SHREESH CHANDRA DIK- The Lok Sabha then adjourned till SHIT: Please allow me to read Eleven of the Clock on Monday, July, this: — 15, 19911Asadha 24, 1913 (Saka)

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