PBS’ “To The Contrary”

The Extremist Influence, Muslim Women & the Hijab, Sex Talk

Host: Bonnie Erbe

May 13, 2016

Panelists: United States Institute of Peace Associate Vice President of the Center for Middle East and Africa Manal Omar, Founder of Anushay’s Point Anushay Hossain, Former Wall Street Journal Reporter Asra Nomani, President and Founder of the Republican Muslim Coalition Saba Ahmed

Bonnie Erbe: Welcome to a special edition of to the contrary: Muslim women in America. First, what lures young Islamic women into terrorism? Then behind the headlines: Is choosing to wear the hijab becoming feminist? And islamic women pushing to discuss sex more openly.

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Erbe: Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe. Welcome to To The contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives. In this edition we feature an all­Muslim panel.Up first women and global terrorism. More and more women throughout the world are participating in terrorist and extremist groups,and social media is playing a key role in the trend­­­that information from a reporter for the Voice of America quoting leading experts speaking at the U.S. Institute for Peace. Coercion was cited as the primary reason most women join violent extremist groups, other reasons cited were women seek a sense of identity and belonging. One expert noted young women in the U.S. who belong to families from non­western countries tend to suffer from identity crises."Making them vulnerable to alluring social media messages and images from terrorist pitches. We should note "a total of 80 U.S. residents were linked to terrorism motivated by islamic extremism in 2015, that represents a nearly 200 percent increase from the previous

year­­­that from the Anti­Defamation League. Meanwhile, the Citadel, South Carolina's prestigious public military college, barred a potential female Muslim student from wearing a hijab. Erbe: So Manal Omar Welcome back to the panel. Who is winning the hearts and minds of American Muslim girls? Is it U.S. culture or Isis?

Manal Omar: I think what's really exciting is that U.S. Muslim girls, like a lot of women, are saying that those aren't our only two options, so neither. They're creating their open culture and they're trying to share it with the community at large.

Anushay Hossain: I completely agree with Manal. We have to remember the diversity of Muslim women. They can't be fit into a box or two boxes.

Saba Ahmed: And we have all the options and the hearts and minds of Muslim American women are influenced by all over global policies and discussions. There is no one factor.

Asra Nomani: My concern is that the government of Qatar is winning the hearts and minds of Muslim women in America and in the world.That we have a hijamini that's existing, that's coming out of our Gulf states that is trying to put scarves on our heads and control what we think about the world in victim culture.

Erbe: Why do you say Qatar?

Nomani: I say Qatar because we have recognized for 40 years that the government of Saudi Arabia has been exporting to the world a very disturbing interpretation of Islam and now, below the radar, the government of Qatar has been exporting millions of dollars of their education material and their own propaganda and I find it very disturbing. I find it disturbing in a way in which it is creating a narrative that is very anti­west, anti­American, and very pro­Islamist.

Erbe: Are you saying, is this where ­­ because I think a lot of people think Isis certainly got its initial funding from Saudi Arabia. Right? Not from Qatar?

Nomani: Well Qatar has been supporting a lot of this extremism for the last 30 years and very much to the sort of ignorance of a lot of people. One of our disturbing facts that a lot of people people have just forgotten is that we had an F.B.I. agent land in Doha, Qatar some years ago, to pick up Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. The government of Qatar picked up the phone, called him and he escaped and 9/11 happened. And so this is the details in history that were ignoring. And I do believe that Muslim women are one of those commodities that this government wants to also control.

Erbe: You, you have spoken several times on the show about girls and terrorism. I figure, I see you as the world's expert as far as I'm concerned because you yourself were recruited by predecessors of Isis online in the late 90s.

Erbe­ Well, I mean you always have people who are online trying to target and lead to the extremism. I think the challenge is Is that working as well now or are efforts to thwart that having any effect?

Omar: I think that you're beginning to see more efforts to thwart it, but I think the underlying assumption and what, what’s the what’s the the problematic area in terms of the description that you just gave Asra is that you're falling into the same trap of Isis Isis. The assumption that theses young women don't have brains of their own. No amount of money, no amount of co­opting is brainwashing these women to make decisions. They're very intelligent. They're very empowered. I mean, I've been in the camps, whether it's in Kenya, or whether it's in Syrian camps in Jordan and in

Turkey and none of these women have luxury of victimhood. They're powerful and they're making choices, whether we want to admit it or not..

Erbe: Seriously? Little, like the 300 girls who were kidnapped?

Omar: The 300­­ I mean again I'm talking about women who are the actual survivors who get outside of conflict. Right. So when you're in the zone those women who are kidnapped, but I'm sure you've interacted with some of the Yazidi women who escaped. And those women are also, they don't have the luxury of victimhood. They're actually finding ways to re­incorporate into their communities. They've been on the Hill lobbying, talking about the horrors.

Hossain: [indistinguishable speech] They're speaking out and organizing after being sex slaves to Isis for like 13 months or something. I mean we're talking

Erbe: But let me, let's get back to American­Muslim girls because this is so important to our audience and to this country. You both agreed that they're starting their own culture. They're not really adopting U.S. culture. They're not buying into Isis either. Is that good if they’re, still if they're developing a culture that's separate from normal American teenage girls of all kinds of diverse backgrounds, how good is it for Muslim girls to have their own culture?

Hossain: Well, it's always so weird when you have to explain this to somebody that isn't Muslim. Because I mean, I'm an American Muslim now. And I see American­Muslim girls all the time. I am an, I guess I am an American­Muslim woman. Not a girl anymore. But anywho, my daughter is. And I'm like I don't know she's in soccer practice. Like, everyone is doing something different. So what's happening on the Internet to maybe some Muslim girls who aren't integrating, don't feel like they belong here. I mean don't we all go through these questions in our teens.

Erbe: Certainly all immigrant kids do, absolutely.

Omar: You know, I mean you look at women of color, like the black women movement really created their own thing. You look at Latinas, I mean for the longest time I thought I was black in South Carolina and then I thought I was Latina and then I tried to be Desi, until I finally landed and my mom was like you're Arab. What's your confusion.

Hossain: Well I tried to be Arab in college.

Omar: You look for Identity and that's a lot of what's going on and I think that's the beauty of America. That's why America is so diverse culturally.

Ahmed: I was going to say as a young Muslim American woman I grew up and I was not influenced by Qatar at all. I couldn't. I know I couldn't care less what they were doing across the world. I mean I grew up here and you know we adopted some of American culture. Some like you know we read teen magazines, we read like you know we grew up with that. And then We also had our Muslim roots. We would go into Sunday school, or like we would our families brought up our tradition.

Hossain: And it’s evolving. It’s changing. I mean this last year

Nomani: So I think that we have to recognize it's not about, it’s not about people being brain dead

it's actually the disturbing part. This is a conversation also about terrorism and this is A very serious conversation that isn't just about, you know, fashion shows and these other ideas. There are women, Muslim women, being recruited by very serious radicalization efforts that are very much directed from from people that are ideologues. And the choice is what is actually disturbing to me. It's not about people being brain dead. It's actually about people intentionally choosing this. And it's not only about radicalization. But to me the normalization of very Puritanical values. And so we'll have conversation about this, but this increasing, you know, acceptance of the head scarf, this increasing acceptance of this idea that women are the carriers of morality in the community. It's disturbing to me.

Ahmed: Well I think I think wearing a headscarf doesn't lead you to join Isis. I don't think that's

Erbe: That's very

Nomani: That's not what I said. No, that’s not

Erbe: Whether ­­

Manal: You are using it as an indicator.

Nomani: That is not at all what I was saying. What I was saying is that these radicalization efforts include the headscarf. What does Boko Haram do? The first thing, what is the first thing they do?

Ahmed: Nothing.

Asra: They put a scarf on women.

Hossain: I think that's a dangerous statement to make. It feeds into all [Talking Over Each Other]

Erbe: Wait Wait Wait, everybody. Nobody can hear you when everybody talks at once. Nomani: And I think, I think this this idea of trying to frame it as dangerous. This idea that trying to conflate it all ​ together as if it is a argument that I’m making that the headscarf then makes you a terrorist why would I be sitting next to you with the American flag if I believe that? I don’t believe that. What I do know is that the ideology of political Islam that is being exported by the governments of Iran, Qatar and Saudi Arabia includes, as part of their formula for the Muslim woman and the Muslim girl, the headscarf. And this is something that we don’t need to conflate as if you wear the headscarf that means that you actually embrace that Idea. What I'm saying is that it is a impact on society and I would really appreciate, I would really appreciate it if you guys don’t misrepresent what I’m trying to say.­­

Erbe: we'll get to that.

Erbe: Okay. Understood and we will get to that in the second segment. But for right now, are are young girls when they’re being asked to wear the headscarf, whether by their family, by their mom, by whatever, Does that, are you saying that’s a pathway to being lured into terrorism?

Nomani: No. That’s exactly what I'm not saying. What I am saying is that those that want to recruit girls And women use this mechanism. That doesn’t mean that people who put the scarf on are putting it on that pathway. I don’t want this reversed. Okay, that’s really important to me. But it's really clear that Isis wants to put a scarf on every one of our heads, if not a face veil. You expressed disturbance earlier at seeing a woman in a full face veil. You know.

Erbe: In a niqab right. Only a slot for her eyes.

Nomani: And that’s the ideology that what I'm talking about. And if if if you want to misrepresent what I'm saying so we don't have this conversation, then I find that more disturbing than having the conversation.

Erbe: Okay let me, back to terrorism, girls, and U.S. culture

Omar: So what I was trying to, what I was trying to explain before we went on on that topic which is different is there is a difference what I think what you’re conflating is not necessarily scarf or non­scarf, but recruitment from living under Islamic law, which Isis is doing. When Isis comes in, in terms of the absolute, one of the first steps is enforcing the scarf and enforcing sometimes the niqab in the most harshest and barbaric terms. What they do with recruitment is very different. they have this really powerful Messaging, which is, it doesn't matter how you live it matters how you die. And they show women in clubs when women in clubs [indistinguishable speech] show men doing drugs and they’re saying live the way you want and this is different from recruitment. And living under the law. They’re saying if you want to redeem yourself what better way of a suicide bombing. Doesn't matter how you live. It matters how you die. And so their recruitment strategies targeting women is very, very different than living under their community [indistinguishable speech]

Ahmed: I was going to say when I started wearing the scarf as an American­Muslim woman I started wearing the scarf because my friends were wearing It. and it was just like, growing up my cousins were wearing it. So I thought it was cool to try it and It just became part of my identity. It was not Because some person in Qatar reach out to me.

[Talking Over Each Other]

Erbe: And not because of anything that the Quran says?

Ahmed: No, nothing. I mean my mom didn’t cover up at the time I started wearing it because it was cool. And it was just you know the thing for to make my own identity in this country as a Muslim­American woman and I think that’s what’s more important to me. And Muslim­American girls here.

Erbe: Okay. Thank you for that. The debate over when and where women can be veiled is certainly intensifying. To The Contrary went behind the headlines to better understand the decision Islamic women make we spoke with two journalists with opposing ideologies. Their views lead one to wonder whether the choice to wear or not wear the hijab is a feminist issue?

Hanna Yusuf: It's a reappropriation of sort of something that is part of a religion but for the women who choose to wear the Hijab, you know who make informed decisions as adults, they sort of reject a very commercially lucrative notion that women's sexual, that women’s power resides in their Sexual allure.

Erbe: Freelance journalist Hanna Yusuf began wearing her hijab at the age of 21, after four years of research and contemplation. Her viral video sparked conversation about the effect western culture has had on the headscarf. Yusuf, who is a western Muslim, says her decision to wear a hijab did not stem from oppression.

Yusuf: I’ve experienced people undermining my abilities and my choices because they assume that I can’t think for myself, or that I’m oppressed or that there’s someone else behind me making decisions for me. So it’s just my way of saying, “Look, not all Muslim women are like this. // There are women who are sort of forced to do things they don’t want to. I don’t think that is such a problem in the west.

Erbe: Yusuf, who lives and works in London, says that she has received some backlash for her choice.

Yusuf: From what I’ve experienced, there’s a lot of social pressure to not wear it. Especially if you’re an ambitious, educated woman who wants to sort of more up in the world, or do things. Pressure to not wear the hijab is just as oppressive as pressure to wear it.

Erbe: According to the Pew Research Center, there are about one million Muslim women in America. Of those women, 36% wear the hijab all of the time, 24% wear it some of the time, and 40% choose not to wear it. In contrast, more than 55% of women in predominately Muslim nations like Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey wear a hijab all of the time. Though the reasons differ, societal and educational pressures often stop women from unveiling.

Masih Alinejad: They brainwash you in a way to say that you’re not a good person if you do not wear hijab. I choose to take off my scarf because I just told myself that if you want to be a good person, that doesn’t mean that you have to wear something that you do not believe in it.

Erbe: Iranian Journalist Masih Alinejad was forced to wear her hijab at the age of seven. In most Muslim­majority countries, girls begin wearing headscarves before they reach puberty. Iran is one of many nations where women are still legally required to wear a hijab in public. ​

Alinejad: ..hijab is going to become, how can I say, your identity, part of your body. It’s not that easy, just, you know, take it off. It means like, you’re going to cut off part of your body. // I always like, worry about my family, even my neighbors in the village, my colleagues in Iran, you know, my people. How are they going to judge me? They’re going to say, Masih is like westernized, because she left Iran she take off the scarf. // (7:15) I replaced my hijab with a black ​ ​ hat, my so­called hijab. It took me like two years to throw the black hat away and be myself. Why? Because when they force you to be someone else, it’s not that easy to express yourself in a free country.

Erbe: In 2014, Alinejad created the Facebook page “My Stealthy Freedom” to encourage other women to remove their headscarves.

Alinejad: In this Facebook page, women became their own media, became their own storytellers. // As a woman growing up in a traditional society, I always being told that, keep quiet and not be loud. But I want women to be loud, and speak out about their bodies, about their identity. On My Stealthy Freedom page, these women started to expose their opinion and expose their opinion and their ideas. // (8:46) By creating My Stealthy Freedom we want to show ​ ​ the world that our freedom is just happen happening in secret.

Erbe: Despite opposing views, both women believe there’s one overarching reality: a woman’s choice. ​

Alinejad: I think every woman should be able to decide for herself what she wears, and have that choice respected and not undermined.

Yusuf: For more than 30 years, I was forced to wear hijab. And when you’re free you just realize that you’ve been someone else. You were not yourself.

Erbe: You mentioned in a webisode that we taped earlier before the show that That you’re not ­­ Muslim woman is not supposed to show her hair because she might sexually arouse a man. So is the hijab in your view all placing the burden on a woman to somehow control men's unbridled sexuality the fact that they’re going to see you and want to rape you or have sex with you or something and that’s the woman's burden to try to prevent?

Nomani: Yeah that is the assumption of the head scarf. The hijab does not even mean headscarf. It is, it’s this word that has been usurped by these idealogues that have trying to put these scarves on our heads and they are working with this basic assumption that our, we are too sexy for our hair. That if we reveal our hair, then we will we will possibly sexually arouse a man. And so this is our aura. This is our forbidden zone. And unfortunately what happens is it becomes, there becomes a second and third degree order of problems. In Iran now, a woman has been not been allowed to go on in parliament because they have now revealed pictures of her with her hair showing. Because she’s become illegal.

Ahmed: I disagree. I disagree. I think my, the headscarf is not necessarily linked to the political idealogues. we’re required to cover our pray whenever we pray. Every single Muslim around the world, you cover your hair when you pray.

Nomani: No we aren’t. We aren’t. That’s your interpretation, but it is not illegal.

Ahmed: Well the vast majority Muslims have to cover. Yeah.

[Talking Over Each Other]

Ahmed: Most Muslim women, when you go to a mosque you have to cover your hair.

Nomani: That is part of the problem. It’s that

Hossain: Well, there’s churches in Italy where they also make you [indistinguishable speech] ­­ Yeah, nuns cover their hair. Jewish women wear wigs. A lot of

Nomani: Nuns don’t always cover their hair anymore.

Ahmed: Well that’s their Issue. I know, it’s like but that’s part of our faith. Islam tells us to cover our hair.

Erbe: Well let me ask you this. But Manal you are one of the biggest feminists I know. You are one of the most brilliant women I know. You are one of the most interesting panelists I know, but when I I have to admit this. And I’ve spoken with feminist leaders about this.When when Muslim women Muslim women wear the scarf in America, American women feel like you’re holding American woman back. And American women’s progress to be free that you take that into account.

Omar: Absolutely. And it’s not just American women. I remember when I was in Hadhramaut in Yemen, which is a remote part of Yemen. Yemeni women who were women came up to me and there they were frustrated. They say our men are pointing at you and they’re saying that you’re living in America and you’re arriving at Hadhramaut covered and we as Yemeni women have chosen not to. So it’s truly divided women out and that’s really painful for me because we can’t be divided. We need the hardcore secularists

Erbe: But you’re never going to, you’re never going to get the women who, the feminists in the United States to wear headscarves. It's not happening.

Omar: I do not want them to. I don’t want them to. My sister doesn’t wear a headscarf.

Erbe: But how do you, how do you

Omar: I think what I would like people to do is respect each other’s choices. Don’t undermine me. I'm so tired of people telling me you did it as a fetish. You did it for identity. You did it to be different. You did it. And men coming and being like you’re not doing it good enough. You’re wearing these tight pants. Your hair is showing in the interview. You know, lay off the way I dress. I'm so over this conversation. Judge me on my actions. Am I liberal? Am I a feminist? Am I a hardcore Hillary supporter? Amen. I am. So why are you completely dismissing me based on my choices of how I cover my hair or not cover my hair. I’m very liberal in my interpretation. I tend to really waiver. I mean you’ve seen me in different styles. I love to play with the color, with the scarf, with tying it back, wearing hats. What I

Ahmed: Or you can be a conservative Republican women and cover your hair.

Omar: Absolutely.

Hossain: I think a hijab is not feminist.The woman is feminist.

Omar: Absolutely

Hossain: So whatever you know. I mean, I grew up in Bangladesh. Nobody ever covered, but now it’s 2016. Hello, there’s something called globalization and we’re seeing niqabs and you know there’s a lot of Muslim fashion going on. And I think it's offensive to tell grown women who have decided to cover that it's fetishi­, you know it’s a fetish or it’s offensive or they’re holding themselves back.

Nomani:I, I’ll tell you what I, I’ll tell you what I find­­

Erbe: Last words

Nomani: What I find, what I find,

Hossain: I think you’ve spoken a lot.

Nomani: what I find offensive

Hossain: What is so offensive. It is so offensive to

Erbe: Wait. Wait. Wait.

Nomani: Well I think we’re going to have to compete in our offenses aren’t we.

Hossain: Well you got to speak a lot more than I have and it is offensive.

Nomani: It is not about time. It is about ideology.­­

Hossain: It is offensive.

Nomani: It is about ideology. Well can I just tell you something, you can try To out outshout me on this point but the truth is. the truth is ultimately what is most offensive is

Erbe: One sentence.

Nomani: that there is an ideology that has decided that we are the vessels of. We are the

[Talking Over Each Other]

Erbe: One at a time.

Nomani: But this is a real serious problem.

Hossain: I know.

Nomani: And it ultimately leads to honor Killings. It leads to the fact that girls don't get to go to School and it leads to yes.

Hossain: It’s patriarchy

Erbe: We have to go on that note. Let us know what you think. Please follow me on Twitter @bonnieerbe. From modesty to sex talk.

Erbe: Muslim women are stepping out of the shadows on an important but taboo subject: sex. A New York Times op­ed called “Sex Talk for Muslim Women” is igniting controversy and praise for award­winning Egyptian­American journalist Mona Eltahawy (Ell­Tah­Ha­Wee). In a frank, personal recollection, Eltahawy discusses her decision to have sex before marriage, in defiance of Islamic law and teachings. She’s happy about her choice and says she receives messages from other Muslim women experiencing similar issues. She’s calling for greater candor and acceptance in her community. The piece has already faced censorship in the Muslim world. Pakistan’s Express Tribune chose not to run it and to replace it with a blank space. An anonymous senior source was quoted as saying the paper “cannot afford to publish such controversial articles about Islam.”

Erbe: So why is this getting such a backlash?

Hossain: Talking about sexin Islam, I think this has always been a kind of a controversial subject but I have to say that I am high five to these women. There was another article about having sex in Pakistan and the piece in the "New York times" high 5 to these Women. There was another article about having sex in Pakistan and now Mona Eltahawy’s piece in the New York Times was high five to these women because we need to have the conversation. I don’t think women are allowed to have sexual and pleasure are not two words that go together.

Omar: And I think it really goes to what you were saying earlier in terms of this is patriarchy. I mean what we’re hearing in terms of shaming in terms of really trying to control women's sexuality. It's not limited to Islam. It’s something that we’ve really struggled. And if anything one of the things that I'm now creating is a fellowship for women's sexuality in Islam and what I'm telling women is have faith in your faith. Ask the hard questions. cross those red lines and if you don’t find answers then you should demand the right answer or leave the faith but not asking, not crossing the red line is no longer an option. And I think women's sexuality is one of the most beautiful gifts and something we need to tap into to really begin to heal the world.

Nomani: Well, I've crossed that red Line, personally in my life.I am walking Scarlet Letter in my faith. In Pakistan, I became pregnant after the 9/11 attacks and I became a criminal because it is the Islamic Law of Pakistan that says that a woman who has a child out of wedlock is a criminal. And so it patriarchy, but unfortunately religion is being used as a vehicle. And I think That the conversation that we had earlier about the headscarf Is very much connected. Because if we have an assumption of women as vessels of the honor and chastity of the community we are never going to have the conversations about sex. Women are never going to be able to own issues of reproductive rights and sexual rights and this is why this is A conversation that has to happen from the head covering to our intimate spaces in our, in our bedrooms.

Erbe: Last 20 seconds Saba.

>> Ahmed: I think adultery is forbidden in Islam. I am, I think moral and

[indistinguishable speech]

Ahmed: I think the concept of that is very strong in our faith. And so for me, I feel like I think A woman's sacredness should be preserved. >> Alright, that's it for this edition. Please follow me on Twitter and visit our website, pbs­dot­org­slash­to­the­contrary. Whether you agree or think, To the Contrary, see you next week.

[♪♪♪] For an on­line version of this episode of to the contrary visit pbs.Org/tothecontrary. [♪♪♪]