COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE

Official Hansard No. 2, 2002 TUESDAY, 12 MARCH 2002

FORTIETH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

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SITTING DAYS—2002 Month Date February 12, 13, 14 March 11, 12, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21 May 14, 15, 16 June 17, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27 August 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 27, 28, 29 September 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26 October 14, 15, 16, 17, 21, 22, 23, 24 November 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19, 20, 21 December 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12

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TUESDAY, 12 MARCH Distinguished Visitors...... 509 Questions Without Notice— Health: Program Funding ...... 509 New Tax System...... 509 Health: Program Funding ...... 510 Economy: Debt Management ...... 511 Health: Program Funding ...... 512 Immigration: ‘Children Overboard’ Affair...... 513 Economy: Debt Management ...... 514 Taxation: Mass Marketed Schemes ...... 515 Defence: Portfolio Budget Bid ...... 517 Australian Defence Force: War Against Terrorism...... 518 Centrelink: Breaches ...... 518 Environment: Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority ...... 520 Questions Without Notice: Additional Answers— Health: Program Funding ...... 521 Roads: Funding...... 521 Questions Without Notice: Take Note of Answers— Economy: Debt Management ...... 522 Immigration: ‘Children Overboard’ Affair...... 526 Environment: Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority ...... 526 Petitions— Science: Stem Cell Research ...... 527 Immigration: Asylum Seekers...... 528 Immigration: Asylum Seekers...... 528 Leave of Absence...... 528 Notices— Presentation ...... 528 Postponement ...... 530 Financial Corporations (Transfer of Assets and Liabilities) Amendment Bill 2002— First Reading ...... 530 Second Reading...... 531 Business— Rearrangement...... 531 Advance to the Finance Minister ...... 534 Lucas Heights: Nuclear Reactor ...... 534 Russell, Sergeant Andrew...... 535 Parliamentary Zone— Approval of Works ...... 535 Approval of Works ...... 535 Committees— Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee— Extension of Time...... 535 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee— Extension of Time ...... 535 Meeting ...... 536 SENATE CONTENTS—continued

Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee— Extension of Time ...... 536 Meeting ...... 536 Economics Legislation Committee—Meeting ...... 536 Human Rights (Mandatory Sentencing for Property Offences) Bill 2000— Report of Legal and Constitutional References Committee ...... 540 Budget— Consideration by Legislation Committees—Additional Information...... 546 Committees— Membership...... 546 Regional Forest Agreements Bill 2002— In Committee...... 546 Governor-General’s Speech...... 560 Adjournment— Health: Coeliac Disease...... 593 Parliament House: Child Care...... 594 Documents— Tabling...... 596 Tabling...... 598 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 598 Questions on Notice— Imports: Motor Vehicles—(Question No. 58) ...... 599 Communications: Casualties of Telstra—(Question No. 82) ...... 600 Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 509

Tuesday, 12 March 2002 had been undertaken in a way that was on the ————— public record. It had been in the Charter of Budget Honesty that appeared in the papers The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator before the election, despite some of the West) took the chair at 2.00 p.m., and read claims by the Labor Party. The Prime Min- prayers. ister has responded, asking for details, be- DISTINGUISHED VISITORS cause some of the scurrilous information that The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Before we was perpetrated by the Labor Party about this commence question time, I draw the atten- was less than helpful, less than useful and tion of honourable senators to the presence in less than truthful. Given the information that the President’s gallery of a delegation from he has, the Prime Minister has asked for the Victorian Legislative Council, led by the further information and has made a commit- President, the Hon. Bruce Chamberlain ment that not one single cent will be redi- MLC. Mr President, I am pleased to wel- rected away from the programs to which they come you to the Senate chamber, particularly were first allocated. after the hospitality you afforded us during Senator CHRIS EVANS—Madam Presi- the Centenary of Federation commemorative dent, I ask a supplementary question. I thank sitting in your chamber in May 2001. I note the minister for her answer. It occurs to me that the delegation is here to observe ques- to ask why the minister was quoted in the tion time with the view to proposing that press as saying on the weekend that she some of the Senate procedures be adopted by waited until Sunday to get advice on this the council. On behalf of honourable sena- matter when she admits that she had known tors, I have pleasure in welcoming you to the for at least three or four weeks. Why didn’t Senate and trust that your visit will be infor- the minister seek advice from her department mative and enjoyable. earlier? As she was well aware of the con- QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE cern about this issue and the debate at esti- Health: Program Funding mates, what has the minister been doing for the last three weeks, given that those matters Senator CHRIS EVANS (2.01 p.m.)—My have been before her for that period? Why question is directed to Senator Patterson, the did she claim on the weekend that she did Minister for Health and Ageing. Can the not get any advice all weekend? minister confirm when she first became aware of the deal done by former Minister Senator PATTERSON—Unlike people Michael Wooldridge to pull money out of on the other side, I have been working very health programs to fund GP House? Was it hard and constructively, not destructively not until the Senate estimates hearing on 20 like many on the other side. I thought the February this year when her department out- answers at the time explained the arrange- lined the deal in detail? What action did she ments which were done in full consultation take when she first became aware of this with the Minister for Finance and Admini- misuse of health funds? Did she request a stration. The information that was given brief from the department? Did she try to during estimates was available and open. It reverse the grant? What action did she take was when the issue was raised—I thought it to inform the Prime Minister? Why did she was breathtakingly wrong in the particular sit on her hands until the Prime Minister, paper on Sunday—that I believed I needed under pressure yesterday, was forced to an- more information and I sought that informa- nounce an inquiry? tion. Senator PATTERSON—Despite the fact New Tax System that I have a reasonable memory, I do not Senator BRANDIS (2.05 p.m.)—Madam remember the exact date. I have been briefed Deputy President, my question is directed to on a lot of issues since I became health min- the Minister for Revenue and Assistant ister. I was aware of the long discussion that Treasurer, Senator Coonan. Will the minister took place in estimates and I believed, from please advise the Senate as to how the How- the answers in estimates, that that procedure ard government’s new tax system is ensuring 510 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 that all Australians pay their fair share of This is up from the original government es- tax? Will the minister outline how the Aus- timate of 2.1 million businesses that would tralian community is sharing in these bene- require an ABN. This is making the tax sys- fits? Is the minister aware of any alternative tem fairer for the vast majority of Australian policies? businesses who do the right thing and pay Senator COONAN—I thank Senator their tax on time. It is not fair that legitimate Brandis for the question. Senator Brandis has businesses are undercut or forced to cut their a very keen interest in matters of tax. I can profit margins to compete with businesses say without fear of contradiction that the operating within the black economy, which cash economy is a problem around the world are actively evading tax. Thanks to the gov- and Australia is no different from any other ernment’s courage in modernising the tax country. However, the report of the Austra- system, it is now much harder for people in lian National Audit Office tabled yester- the cash economy to cheat the Australian day—Report No. 35 of 2001-02—Perform- community out of legitimate tax revenue. ance Audit—ATO progress in addressing the The government has done this in the face of cash economy: Australian Taxation Office— concerted and cynical opposition from the demonstrated that the most effective devel- Labor Party. Labor will go down in the an- opment in cracking down on the so-called nals of history as the political party that op- black economy has been the introduction by posed the biggest crackdown on the black the Howard government of the new tax sys- economy and on tax cheats ever undertaken tem in July 2000. This, of course, is the same in this country. new tax system that the Leader of the Oppo- This month, Dun and Bradstreet released a sition, Mr Simon Crean, had been repeatedly survey which demonstrates that an increasing claiming had king-hit the economy. In fact, number of business executives are now com- nothing could be further from the truth. The pletely comfortable with the new tax system. new tax system has already delivered a range In total the survey indicates that some 91 per of benefits to the Australian community. cent of firms are now extremely comfortable These include $12 billion in income tax cuts, with the new tax system. But support for the ensuring that for average wage earners up to new tax system is coming from some other $50,000 the top marginal tax rate they pay is unusual sources. Last week the Premier of now just 30 per cent. Australian businesses Queensland announced an increase in educa- are also sharing the benefits of the lowered tion spending— (Time expired) company tax rate, from 36 per cent to 30 per Health: Program Funding cent. Exports are now tax free, delivering an estimated $3.6 billion benefit to Australian Senator MACKAY (2.09 p.m.)—My farmers, manufacturers and businesses. Un- question is directed to the Minister for like the Labor Party, this government be- Health and Ageing. Is the minister aware of lieves in lowering taxes and ensuring that all reports in today’s Daily Telegraph that the Australians pay their fair share of tax and no New South Wales government had lodged more. several applications for funding under the Medical Specialist Outreach Assistance Pro- The new tax system just keeps on giving. gram to help provide specialist medical The ATO advises that increased compliance services in underserviced rural areas and that with the new tax system is now estimated to these applications have still not been funded? contribute an additional $2.61 billion in in- Isn’t this the precise program that Dr come tax over three years between 2001 and Wooldridge raided to provide a gift to a 2002-03. This is money that would not oth- lobby group to fund the construction of erwise be available to the Australian com- Wooldridge House, as it is now known? How munity if the new tax system had not been can the minister claim that there was ever an introduced. underspend of $4 million in this program I can advise the Senate that over 3.7 mil- when there are important services ready and lion businesses and organisations have now waiting to be funded? registered for an ABN with the tax office. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 511

Senator PATTERSON—There was a roll Economy: Debt Management out going on of that program— Senator CRANE (2.12 p.m.)—My ques- Senator Knowles—Which Labor never tion is to the Minister for Finance and Ad- did. ministration. Will the minister advise the Senator PATTERSON—which Labor Senate how the Howard government policies never did—thank you, Senator Knowles. are reducing the Commonwealth’s debt, of That program was estimated by the depart- which $80 billion was accumulated by Labor ment to have an underspend, because of the in their last five years in office? applications coming in, and that was the Senator MINCHIN—It is true that one of money that was set aside. As the Prime the big problems we did inherit from the Minister said yesterday, the decision he has previous Labor government was this $96 made is that that $5 million will be assured; billion in accumulated debt. As Senator those programs will receive that money. We Crane has pointed out, Labor managed to may have to look at how we are going to rack up $80 billion of that in their last five deal with that as the roll out comes out. I am years in office, which is breathtaking. We discussing with the Minister for Finance and have repaid $57 billion of that debt in our six Administration the possibility of rolling it years in office. As I pointed out yesterday, over to the next budgetary year to ensure that we are saving nearly $4 billion every year in we actually can pursue that program. interest payments on that debt. Of course, Senator MACKAY—I have a supple- that is money that is now available to spend mentary question. The New South Wales on health, to spend on education, to spend on government has in fact indicated that it had Australian families. Our asset sales program applications in under this program. Given is an ongoing priority for this government that the minister has now had 24 hours to and the proceeds from our asset sales are reflect on her failure to answer yesterday on being used to pay off more of Labor’s debt this matter, can she now explain how former and reduce that interest burden on taxpayers, Minister Wooldridge could possibly have which we have cut from some $8 billion to known in September—only three months around $4 billion. into the financial year, irrespective of appli- Yesterday the government announced that cations—that there would be an underspend we will recommence the sale of Sydney air- in asthma and rural health funding? Before port—a sale process that was deferred in the he made the decision to skim off millions of wake of the events of September 11. The dollars, was Dr Wooldridge provided with expert advice to the government is that mar- advice by the department about the waiting kets have now stabilised, international air list for funding, under the rural health pro- travel is rebounding, and we can now re- gram, of outstanding applications like those commence that sale—which we will now do. in New South Wales? The specific timetable will be determined by Senator PATTERSON—I do not believe our commitment to secure the best possible everything that you on the other side say. deal for taxpayers, as we have with all previ- When those applications came in, the de- ous asset sales. We will only accept a bid that partment estimated that there would be an is sensible and provides a good return to tax- underspend in that program given the take- payers. up rate. That is the information I have; that is The recommencement of this sale does the information I act on. I will go and have a follow the successful sale earlier this year of look at when New South Wales applied, but I the National Rail Corporation and Freight- will not always believe what New South Corp, which, I point out, we sold jointly with Wales says either, because there have been the Labor state governments of New South some things said yesterday about pap smear Wales and Victoria, and that produced re- testing that are actually not true either. turns to the Australian taxpayers of some $220 million to further reduce the Labor debt burden we inherited. That is a very good out- come. I congratulate the Carr and Bracks 512 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Labor governments on their wisdom in par- Practitioners stated, in a press release circu- ticipating in this sale of assets. lated by email yesterday by her colleague Of course, we all know Mr Carr would Senator Eggleston: like to go a lot further and sell the New The construction of a GP House in the Parlia- South Wales electricity assets, if only the mentary Precinct is a commercial venture for the trade union movement would let him. In RACGP. government, the Labor Party does act quite Can the minister explain on what basis her differently to when they are in opposition. department recommended to her predecessor They sit there in opposition and stick to their that $5 million be plundered from programs socialist ideology but of course in govern- to counter asthma and encourage medical ment they do understand the wisdom of an services in the bush, in order to support a appropriate asset sales program, as the for- commercial venture? mer Labor government did with its sale of Senator PATTERSON—I know that the Commonwealth Bank, Qantas, the Com- Senator Crowley was not at the estimates monwealth Serum Laboratories—even the hearing—we had two hours on this. Commonwealth’s uranium stockpile. They still managed to rack up massive debts in Senator Knowles—Yes, she was. their time in office. They put up taxes, the Senator PATTERSON—She was there, most infamous of which were in 1993. They was she? She made such a major contribu- sold the assets; they did not use the asset tion that I did not notice she was there. If sales to reduce debt, they used them to try to Senator Crowley was there, she did not make balance the books, and still racked up $80 much of a contribution. There are details billion in debt. there about that. I say to Senator Crowley, if I pointed out the sensible, pragmatic ap- she feels so concerned about this, that she proach of the state Labor governments in should go and speak to Mr Smith, who wants New South Wales and Victoria, but now we to have an Auditor-General’s inquiry into it, have a puppet Labor government in South and say that while the Auditor-General is Australia and that has adopted the most ex- inquiring into that he inquire into how it is traordinary, ideologically driven position of that his department is renting, from the La- opposing all privatisations per se. I cannot bor Party in Centenary House, property for think of another government in the whole $36 million over 15 years—enough to fund wide world that adopts that position—even each federal election for $7 million. Senator Fidel Castro believes in some privatisation. Crowley, if you are very concerned about But, oh no, not the puppet Labor government programs, go out, get your Leader of the Op- of Mr Rann in South Australia. You would position to phone the Auditor-General and think the South Australian Labor Party, of all change the rent. That is what you can do. parties, would know the dangers of owning Senator CROWLEY—Madam President, government business enterprises, having I ask a supplementary question. I hope Min- blown $3 billion on the government-owned ister Patterson understands that abuse is no State Bank of South Australia. We are not substitute for substance. Can the minister driven by ideology; we take a very prag- confirm that, according to a clarification re- matic, sensible view of this matter, and if ceived by the community affairs estimates government business assets can be better committee yesterday, which I was present at, managed in the private sector and be used to from the Department of Health, the RACGP repay some of Labor’s debt, then we will will be occupying only 200 square metres of undertake such a course of asset sales. (Time the 2,121 square metres on the fourth floor of expired) the building—in other words, less than 10 Health: Program Funding per cent of the one floor? What percentage of the rest of the floor space in the building will Senator CROWLEY (2.17 p.m.)—My be let on a commercial basis? question is to Senator Patterson, Minister for Health and Ageing. Is the minister aware that Senator PATTERSON—I do not know the Royal Australian College of General how many square metres of the place will be Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 513 let. The important thing is that the contract formed that in this incident children were says— thrown overboard when it now seems the Senator Chris Evans interjecting— case that this did not in fact occur. The gov- ernment is interested in ensuring that the Senator PATTERSON—Senator Evans lines of communication in the future are just said 500 whatever for so many square better, and that seems very reasonable. To metres. Go back and find out how much the illustrate the Prime Minister’s good faith in taxpayer is paying per square metre for this matter he required of his department an renting the Attorney-General’s part of Cen- inquiry into the whole event and then, of tenary House which is owned by the ALP. course, made the results of that inquiry pub- Senator Sherry—The Audit Office, not lic. That was assisted— the Attorney-General’s office. Senator Conroy interjecting— Senator PATTERSON—The Audit Of- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! fice is renting at Centenary House. Irrespec- Senator Conroy, would you please come to tive of what it is; it is public money going order! Senator Conroy, you have been inter- into the coffers of the Labor Party. The La- jecting all afternoon. I ask you to cease, bor Party would have people believe that the please. RACGP has this $5 million; it does not. The Prime Minister indicated yesterday that he Senator HILL—by an inquiry conducted did not rule out withdrawing the Common- within the Department of Defence. The re- wealth’s offer to the RACGP, and that is a sults of that inquiry were also released pub- possibility. He has asked for a report; he may licly. The government has also facilitated the withdraw that money. The money has not Senate through being open and frank before gone to the RACGP. That needs to be made its estimates committee. The government very clear. The Prime Minister has said that will also cooperate with the Senate commit- every penny that was destined for those pro- tee notwithstanding the government believes grams will be spent on them. (Time expired) it is simply a political hatchet job connived between the Australian Democrats and the Immigration: ‘Children Overboard’ ALP to achieve a political outcome that they Affair might as well state before the outset. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (2.21 Notwithstanding that, public servants will p.m.)—My question is to the minister repre- appear before the Senate committee. Military senting the Prime Minister. Does the minister personnel will appear before the Senate recall that the Prime Minister originally re- committee. What the government is not pre- peatedly reassured the public that he wanted pared to do, however, is to allow those who to ascertain the truth about the ‘children are employed as staff members within min- overboard’ issue? In particular, does he recall isters’ offices, either present or in the past, to that on 15 February the Prime Minister told appear because that has never been seen as Melbourne radio: appropriate except in one exceptional case If people appear before the inquiry they tell the where the ALP abused that safeguard by truth and as far as I am concerned I have nothing putting a person into a job running an agency to fear in relation to the truth on this matter. I and disbursing public funding. But it has don’t have anything to hide. been accepted on both sides of the chamber If the government has nothing to hide, why for a long period of time—reiterated by has it taken the provocative and pre-emptive Senator Faulkner, I might say, during the action of gagging three key witnesses? recent estimates committee—that it is inap- Senator HILL—The government cer- propriate for staff members employed under tainly has nothing to hide on this particular the MOPS Act to be subject to the same level issue. However, we do believe it is possible of scrutiny as others. The reason is obvious. to learn lessons from this experience. As If the Senate is entitled to pry within the in- Senator Stott Despoja will know, the gov- ternal operations of a minister’s office, that ernment was, unfortunately, misled on this office will simply not be able to function particular matter. The government was in- effectively. Most senators understand the 514 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 basis of that safeguard, and all the govern- a political outcome already written in ad- ment has said in this instance is that it wants vance. to preserve that safeguard in the interests of Economy: Debt Management effective government in the future. Senator CONROY (2.28 p.m.)—My So it has nothing to do with hiding any- question is to Senator Minchin, the Minister thing. We actually believe—and we certainly for Finance and Administration and Minister hope—that all the facts are on the table in representing the Treasurer. Is the minister this particular matter. The government has aware of the Treasurer’s claim on 4 March taken steps through the Department of De- this year that he ‘ended the policy’ of trans- fence to ensure that mistakes of this type do ferring government liabilities into US dol- not recur. We want, as I said at the outset, to lars? Will the minister now admit that, al- ensure that lessons are learned from this ex- though new foreign currency swaps contracts perience, and that is our approach to the were ended in April 2000, the Common- matter. wealth has continued to gamble in foreign Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Madam currencies through an alternative type of for- Deputy President, I ask a supplementary eign currency derivative called forward for- question. I thank the minister for his answer. eign exchange contracts? Isn’t it the case that Given the minister’s aim to learn from this the Treasurer has simply been substituting issue and to have an open and frank commu- one type of currency derivative for another? nication system, does he really and honestly Senator MINCHIN—The Treasurer has believe that the key go-betweens, the three made it perfectly clear that we did end this middlemen at the centre of this saga, should policy of the Labor Party’s to enter into cur- not be allowed to give evidence? Wouldn’t it rency swaps. The matter was brought to his be the case in the interests of natural justice attention towards the end of 2000 and for- that those three key individuals—that is, the mally ended on 6 September 2001. Of Prime Minister’s international adviser, the course, there have been no currency swaps former defence minister’s media adviser, and entered into since February 1999, some three his military adviser—be allowed to give evi- years ago. As to your question in relation to dence given that they know the facts of the forward exchange contracts, I will seek some matter? Do you honestly believe they should advice from the Treasurer and come back to be prevented from telling their side of the you. story, that is, if your government honestly believes it has nothing to hide? Senator CONROY—Madam Deputy President, I ask a supplementary question. In Senator HILL—The government is less light of the Treasurer’s claim in his press interested in a witch-hunt and more inter- conference that he has ended the policy of ested in good governance. We have already swapping government debt into US dollars, acknowledged that there are lessons to be will the minister now admit that even if no learned from this experience. We have al- further contracts are entered into Australian ready learned lessons and are requiring re- taxpayers will remain vulnerable to gyrations form of the communication system within in foreign exchange markets until the last the Department of Defence between Defence cross-currency swap matures in 2008? and the minister’s office and the like. Out of this, we will be more confident that incorrect Senator MINCHIN—The great tragedy information will not in the future be passed for Australian taxpayers is that the Labor down the chain or up the chain of command Party exposed them to $80 billion extra in and then across to ministers’ offices and then debt as a result of their last five years in of- to the public. That is what we are interested fice, costing us $8 billion a year in interest in in this matter. If the Senate committee, in payments when we came into government. some way, can further contribute to that, that We are saving taxpayers $4 billion a year in is well and good. But unfortunately, we all reduced interest payments. know that is not what the Senate committee Honourable senators interjecting— is about. This Senate committee is just about Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 515

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Brown—The process of rotating Senator Murphy has the call. the questions so that they went in order, se- Senator Brown—Madam Deputy Presi- riatim, was ended a year or two ago after dent, on a point of order— much deliberation by the President, and an allocated day was given. That was by ar- Honourable senators interjecting— rangement with the Independents, at the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! President’s request. She said it was a matter Until there is silence I am unable to hear for us to determine. She cannot change that. Senator Brown’s point of order. The President is not acting in a proper fash- Senator Brown—It is routine for me to ion if she alters that and goes away without have the question on Tuesday. I presume the notifying members. I will bring it to her at- chair has changed the date to some other day tention. I see that you are in a difficult posi- for me to ask a question and, if so, I ask you tion— what that date will be? Honourable senators interjecting— Honourable senators interjecting— The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! I Senator Brown—I will stand by proper would like to hear all of the point of order. process in this place. I recognise you are in a Senator Brown—The point of order is difficult position. I will allow the question, in that the chair well knows that on Tuesday I good grace, to Senator Murphy and I would ask a question on behalf of the Australian ask you if you could let me know when the Greens. There has been no notification to me question will be allocated to the Australian of a change of that arrangement. I ask the Greens. chair: what has happened to cause the chair The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I am not to call a different senator to give the question in a position to give an answer to that. at this time which is allocated to the Austra- Senator Murphy, you have the call. lian Greens? Senator Brown—Madam Deputy Presi- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—There are dent, if you are not in a position to tell the now four Independent and single-party Australian Greens when they have a ques- members and, since the parliament has re- tion, who is? You are, and I require to be sumed, we are now on the fourth question informed so that I can ask a question in time. This will mean that today Senator proper and judicious time. I would expect Murphy gets a question and therefore all four that answer after question time if you cannot will have had a question in the four days. As give it now, but that is fair enough— I understand it, it is going to work like that. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—You will If you have some concerns about it, I will be advised in due time, Senator. Senator raise it with Madam President when she re- Murphy has the call. turns. Taxation: Mass Marketed Schemes Senator Brown—Just on a further expla- nation— Senator MURPHY (2.35 p.m.)—It might be a hard act to follow, but my question is— Honourable senators interjecting— Honourable senators interjecting— The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! I Senator Brown—I am interested in how would like to be able to hear it, Senator much the Labor Party in particular, but the Murphy. government as well, does not want me to ask a question today. I understand that, but— Senator MURPHY—My question is to the Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Honourable senators interjecting— Revenue, Senator Coonan. The minister The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! would be aware of the Australian Taxation Can I have silence and then I will know Office’s response on 14 February to the Sen- whether there is a point of order. ate Economics References Committee’s sec- ond report into mass marketed tax effective 516 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 schemes. In that report the committee advised me that he has about 150 promoters unanimously recommended that the ATO already under scrutiny. Senator Murphy, it undertake a commercial viability test of has been a difficult matter but the offer that schemes in assessing the settlement proposal was made— for a large number of investors involved. Senator Murphy—Madam Deputy Presi- However, the Commissioner of Taxation has dent, I raise a point of order. I do not like rejected this unanimous recommendation, making a practice of taking points of order in despite the Taxation Office being consulted regard to questions I have asked, but I have on the matter. Can the minister inform the been listening to the minister now for about Senate if the government agrees with the 3½ minutes. My question to the minister re- commissioner’s view and, if so, why? lated to whether or not the government Senator COONAN—Thank you, Senator agrees with the commissioner’s view about Murphy. The mass marketed schemes of the commercial viability test. I would appre- course have been a very difficult matter for ciate an answer to that question. Madam many people. I acknowledge that the Senate Deputy President, I would like you to draw committee—indeed, I think times three—has the minister’s attention to the question I ac- given very serious consideration to this mat- tually asked. ter and made a number of recommendations. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I think the I think, Senator Murphy, in the last report minister has heard your point of order and you were in the minority. In any event, the the question. Senator Coonan, do you have commissioner’s offer is open to about 40,000 anything further to add? investors in mass marketed schemes. The terms are very generous. They include a tax Senator COONAN—I have finished my deduction for the actual amount of cash out- answer. laid, a full remission of penalty and interest, Senator MURPHY—I ask a supplemen- and a two-year interest free period in which tary question, Madam Deputy President, and to pay the scheme debt. it is based on the fact that the minister did Investors should consider this matter very not answer the question. Minister, if you carefully and take proper advice. It is part of cannot answer either the question or the sup- a broader strategy to end the problems, as I plementary question, could you take the have mentioned, with the mass marketed matter on notice and provide an answer. My schemes. It follows a number of other initia- question is simply this: if the government tives that the commissioner has put in place, does agree with the commissioner’s action such as the funding of test cases and a taken in respect of the unanimous committee moratorium on recovery action for those who report, how does the government view the have objected against their assessments until Taxation Office issuing product rulings, es- after the test cases have been decided. pecially in regard to the forest plantation sector where a very large percentage, as It is necessary to strike a balance between much as 70 per cent, of the funds outlaid by fairness to the community by protecting the investors does not find its way into produc- revenue base, which is of course very im- tive activity? portant, and fairness to investors who are caught up in these arrangements by aggres- Senator Cook—Don’t make a goose of sive marketing and unscrupulous promoters. yourself. The government is therefore considering a Senator Schacht—Take it on notice and tough new crackdown on promoters of tax sit down. avoidance schemes and is in the process of The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! developing a proposal for greater sanctions. I Senator Cook and Senator Schacht, you expect that there will be broad public con- might have moved further away but you can sultation on the proposal prior to the devel- still be heard. opment of these amendments, but I certainly Senator COONAN—I have elaborated have been advised that the commissioner has fully on Senator Murphy’s question in my not been idle under the existing law. He has previous answer. Following the committee’s Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 517 recommendation, the offer has been made, the additional estimates processes which has and that was the answer that I gave earlier; helped to cover those costs over the past you know as well as I do what the answer to year. We are expecting operations to con- it is. The situation outlined in your supple- tinue at an enhanced level during the course mentary question with respect to the forestry of the next year and that will be required to plantation scheme does not arise. be funded as well. This government will Defence: Portfolio Budget Bid meet that funding responsibility because it knows that its contribution to the war against Senator HOGG (2.41 p.m.)—My ques- terrorism has got to be properly funded. In tion is directed to the Minister for Defence. addition to that, this government is investing Can the minister confirm that portfolio at an unprecedented level in future capabil- budget bids were due to be lodged some six ity. We are doing that through the guidance weeks ago? Can the minister also confirm that was set down under the white paper—an that the Defence portfolio has still not lodged extra $500 million for this financial year and its bid for budget funding, with the ERC due an extra $1 billion for the next financial year. to meet in the next 24 hours? What explana- So not only are we providing more funding tion is there for such a delay in the budget to ensure the long-term capability of the bid for Defence? Won’t this delay inevitably ADF but also we are providing the additional reduce Defence’s ability to secure the fund- funding to enable us to operate at this en- ing it needs? Doesn’t the additional budget hanced level. statement show that appropriations for De- fence outputs are to be cut by $285 million in The bottom line of all that is that the hon- 2002-03 and 2003-04? ourable senator should rest easy. This gov- ernment accepts a responsibility for defend- Senator HILL—I am flattered by the in- ing this country and meeting the cost of do- terest of the honourable senator in the inter- ing so. And through this budget process it nal workings of government. It is the gov- will continue with its excellent record in that ernment’s business to put together its budget regard. and as part of that process portfolios will make bids. They will do it to the timetable Senator HOGG—Madam President, I ask principally determined by the Prime Minis- a supplementary question. Can the minister ter, and the Department of Defence will do explain how the Treasurer, during the recent that. election campaign, repeatedly stated that the deployment to Afghanistan would not add to Senator Carr—Why are they six weeks the budget for the current year? Can the late? minister confirm that the additional budget Senator HILL—Unfortunately, I have to statement provided to parliament two weeks inform the honourable senator that he is fac- ago has the cost for this deployment in the tually incorrect, but that is really irrelevant current year at $320 million? When was the because it is none of his business in any government told about the real costs of this event. deployment, and was the Treasurer or his The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Would office aware of this information during the you like to address the chair, Senator Hill. campaign? Senator HILL—I am sorry, Madam Dep- Senator HILL—What I can tell the hon- uty President. I was provoked. ourable senator is what is on the public rec- Senator Carr interjecting— ord, and that is that additional funding was provided to the government to help meet not The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator only the cost of increased operations that I Carr will remain silent. have mentioned but also the increased costs Senator HILL—In relation to the De- in relation to domestic security, the increased fence budget, the department is engaged in costs in relation to doubling our counter- almost unprecedented levels of operations at terrorism capability, the increased costs as- the moment, at a significant cost. We were sociated with protecting our borders—all of pleased to receive additional funding through these extra commitments that the govern- 518 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 ment has expected of the ADF since the pre- be joined in the near future by HMAS Can- vious budget. This government funded the berra. HMAS Adelaide returns home to ADF according to its projections at that time. Australia after a most successful mission in The purpose of the additional estimates is to the Gulf—it gets home tomorrow. ensure that any shortfalls are adequately An RAAF detachment of FA18 fighter covered, and this government has more than aircraft has been deployed and operating fairly met that responsibility. over coalition forces out of Diego Garcia. It Australian Defence Force: War Against is now, I believe, in its second rotation and Terrorism also performing with great distinction. A Senator LIGHTFOOT (2.46 p.m.)—My senior RAAF officer is in Manas, question is also directed to the Minister for Kyrgyzstan, where he has taken up the posi- Defence and the Leader of the Government tion of air operations commander at the coa- in the Senate, Senator Hill. I ask if the min- lition base. He is responsible for ensuring ister could update the Senate on the in- that coalition fighter, tanker, transport and volvement of the Australian Defence Force combat search and rescue aircraft meet their in the war against terrorism? tasking requirements. The government is expecting to deploy two B707 air-to-air refu- Senator HILL—Yes, it does seem appro- elling aircraft also to the zone in the near priate, six months after the horrific terrorist future. attacks in the United States, to update the Senate on the very significant contribution These add up to a very significant contri- that Australia is playing as one member of bution by our Defence Force which comple- the coalition in the war against terrorism. ments, of course, all of our other efforts, Australia has, as I indicated in answer to the whether they be diplomatic, humanitarian or previous question, made a significant contri- law enforcement, because the challenge to bution in terms of enhancing domestic secu- defeat terrorism is not simply going to be rity but also in combating the threat offshore. one through armed force alone. But, having I mentioned, in relation to defending Austra- said that, I particularly want to emphasise the lia, the increased investment in security and contribution of the ADF. I want to make spe- the development of doubling our counter- cific reference to their professionalism, to terrorism capability. We have also invested their determination and to their courage. more in intelligence, because one of the les- They have also already suffered significant sons of these horrific events is that all demo- sacrifice, in the death of Sergeant Andrew cratic nation states need a better under- Russell and one serious injury. His death we standing of the extent of these terrorist net- mourn in conjunction with the deaths of works and how they operate. other coalition soldiers such as those from the United States who have lost their lives Having said that, we have also recognised recently in Afghanistan. It is a reminder to that it has been necessary to combat this all of us of the sacrifice that our armed forces scourge offshore, overseas, and we have are prepared to accept as part of a responsi- made a very significant contribution as part bility to keep us safe, and we should never of the coalition. About 1,500 Australian forget that. (Time expired) troops have been involved. Our special forces are operating in Afghanistan and have Centrelink: Breaches operated with great courage and great dis- Senator MARK BISHOP (2.50 p.m.)— tinction. The recent reports of their successes My question is to Senator Vanstone, the in Operation Anaconda are just an example Minister for Family and Community Serv- of that. ices. I refer to the minister’s press statement Our Navy continues to operate in the Gulf, of Monday 11 March which claims the gov- where we have presently the frigate HMAS ernment has implemented or will implement Newcastle and the amphibious command 26 of the 36 recommendations contained in ship HMAS Manoora actively involved in the Pearce report into breaching. In the inter- maritime interception operations. They will ests of accountability, will the minister pub- licly release the Centrelink report to allow a Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 519 comparison with the Pearce report? Can the the announcements made by the government minister provide a time line for the imple- a week or so ago were borrowed recommen- mentation of the 26 findings she does agree dations from his draft report. I do understand with? from Professor Pearce’s point of view—eve- Senator VANSTONE—I thank the sena- rybody here would understand—that some- tor for his question. Senator, unless there has times you get so close to an issue that you been a mistake in my release, it is not the forget that other people might be heading case that there are 26 recommendations that down the same path. And I repeat what I in- the government agrees with; it is that there dicated the other day: the process of getting are 26 that fall mostly within my portfolio. approval for the package that I announced And most of these either have been imple- about 10 days ago now was a process that mented in the sense that they are already cur- was started before Christmas last year and rent practice and have been for a long time, the package that was announced was the already current practice because they have same package—in other words, it was not been introduced over the last six months, or altered in any policy content over that time. are about to become practice because we Professor Pearce might like to think that he have accepted the notion that the change is the only source of insight into this issue, needs to occur and there is some sort of time he might like to think that he and the people lag in the implementation period. who paid for the report are the only ones that are interested; but the plain facts are that this As I recall, it was 26 that affected my government gave a commitment very early portfolio; not all of which, however, we on when I took this job to look at what we agreed with. Someone may have added it up could do to help the vulnerable. We have to be 26. I do not know that it is terribly use- done that, and either we have implemented ful in any event. If I can explain why: a the changes or they are on the way. There number of the recommendations had three are, however, some that we disagree with. parts. For example, I think recommendation 1 had three parts. Taking a recommendation Senator MARK BISHOP—Madam that does have three parts, we might have Deputy President, I ask a supplementary agreed with parts 1 and 2 but not with No. 3. question. I again refer to the press statement That is just a little arithmetical exercise that of the Minister for Family and Community is not terribly useful. The substantive answer Services from Monday, 11 March 2002 in is that we agree with a very significant pro- which she says that she will not implement portion of the recommendations in sub- recommendation 22.3 of the Pearce report stance—there might be some disagreements dealing with the imposition of breaches. at the edge—and, of those recommendations Does the minister consider that her refusal to that we agree with, they are already in place endorse a system that breaches an individual and have been for a long time, were put in only after a prima facie case of noncompli- place over the last year as Centrelink, the ance has been established justifies the de- department and I worked on what we could scription of her policy as ‘Shoot first, ask do for vulnerable people, as we indicated in questions later’? here that we would or, as a consequence of Senator VANSTONE—Senator, that the Centrelink review, are in the process of question almost does not deserve an answer. being implemented but we are not yet able to Senator Carr—Try anyway. Go on, an- say that we have fully done that. There are swer the question. some that we disagree with. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! As for the Centrelink report, yes, I will Senator Carr. look at releasing that—I will come back to you—and you will be able to make a com- Senator VANSTONE—I thank Senator parison. I will conclude by highlighting a Carr for his terribly helpful interjections. point that I made to you, Senator, yesterday They are so helpful! I am going to have to because I have subsequently seen some re- send him a Kit Kat or something, because he marks of Professor Pearce’s suggesting that just cannot wait to get himself on the record 520 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 by intervening. Senator, I am happy to have a look across the chamber, I can see former discussion with you about any of the recom- ministers there who used to agree that I mendations that we reject. should do so without any supervision. I can The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator think of other ministers who demanded su- Vanstone, address the chair please. pervision by one of their staff. So whichever policy is adopted by Dr Kemp in this regard Senator VANSTONE—I am of the view should not be regarded as unusual. that people who get breached under the sys- tem that we have announced will start from 1 I regret that the Australian Democrats do July will be breached only if they did not not seem to have a lot of substance to pursue show up as a requirement and subsequently in this place at the moment. However, I can did not have a reasonable excuse. I repeat tell them that from my observation—and I what I said the other day: taxpayers look at have some bias in this matter—I believe Dr the dole as being paid to get a job, and just as Kemp is doing an excellent job as environ- you have to show up for a job on time oth- ment minister, continuing the pretty fair erwise you might get the sack so you have to work of his predecessor. I wish him well, show up for your appointments. because I am the first to concede that there is a great deal that needs to be done. This is a Environment: Great Barrier Reef Marine government that is prepared to tackle the big Park Authority challenges in relation to sustainable devel- Senator BARTLETT (2.56 p.m.)—My opment and environmental protection. I question is to the Minister representing the know that the portfolio is in good hands with Minister for the Environment and Heritage. Dr Kemp. Can the minister confirm that a policy has Senator BARTLETT—Madam Deputy been introduced by the new Minister for the President, I ask a supplementary question. If Environment and Heritage, Dr Kemp, re- the practice that Dr Kemp has adopted is quiring any requests by parliamentarians for such good standard practice, as the minister meetings with officials from the Great Bar- said, could he please indicate why he did not rier Reef Marine Park Authority to be di- utilise it during his time as environment rected through the minister’s office? Is it also minister? Could he also indicate what other the case that the minister requires one of his independent statutory agencies are also re- own advisers to sit in on meetings between quired to seek ministerial approval before parliamentarians and marine park authority they can brief parliamentarians? Could he officials? Can the minister indicate why this also indicate if ministerial staff advisers are new approach has been introduced and why required to sit in on meetings relating to the it is appropriate that an independent statutory operation of organisations such as the marine authority has to require ministerial approval park authority? Are those ministerial staffers before it is allowed to meet with parliamen- able to be called before estimates committees tarians? to answer questions about the conduct of Senator HILL—It is courtesy as well as their work? good practice for parliamentarians seeking Senator HILL—I think it is a bad day for information from officials, whether they be the Australian Democrats today. I have al- from an independent statutory authority or ready put the argument as to why it is inap- whether they be from the Public Service, to propriate for ministers’ staff to be subjected seek that permission through the minister to the same sort of scrutiny as those respon- that has responsibility for the body within his sible for administering the public purse. It is or her portfolio. I am surprised that Senator a different role, it is a different level of scru- Bartlett would find that so exceptional that it tiny and responsibility, and there are good would justify a question in this place. In my reasons for it. I think that would answer the experience, ministers have had differing last part of the question; I am just being re- practices in relation to whether they are pre- petitive. In relation to the first part, I have pared to provide that access with or without already said that it is at the discretion of the presence of one of their staff. When I ministers, and different ministers have dif- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 521 ferent views. It might simply mean that I exist under the former government. I am knew honourable senators better than Dr aware of the reported statements by Minister Kemp and therefore I might have had greater Craig Knowles regarding deliberate Com- confidence in their objectivity and knew that monwealth delays, and I refute these com- they would not misrepresent what his official pletely. This program aims to achieve the might say. Whatever it is, either methodol- best outcomes for rural communities. It is ogy is equally valid, and I would invite the my view that this activity should respond to Democrats in the future to bring some ques- community priorities, which may not neces- tions of substance to this chamber. Madam sarily be those of the state government. New President, I ask that further questions be South Wales have sought to use the recent placed on the Notice Paper. and generous injections of Commonwealth QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: funding for rural services to allow them to ADDITIONAL ANSWERS take money out of rural areas. Indeed, we are having a protracted battle with them to ac- Health: Program Funding cept that new Commonwealth funds must Senator PATTERSON (Victoria—Min- result in new services. We cannot have a ister for Health and Ageing) (3.01 p.m.)—I situation where Commonwealth funds come have some more information for Senator in the front door only to have state funds Mackay. I am advised by the department that disappear out the back door. no money has been diverted away from New Some project proposals, including those South Wales, or any other state, with regard from New South Wales Health, require clari- to the Medical Specialist Outreach Assis- fication and amendment to make sure there is tance Program. There has been no deliberate no duplication or overlap of existing serv- slowing down of action under the program ices. We cannot fund project plans that are by the department or by the organisations unfinished or underdeveloped. The ground- developing the proposals. In New South work has now been set for continued expan- Wales, progress has been steady. The New sion of the Medical Specialist Outreach As- South Wales Rural Doctors Network is re- sistance Program across Australia. At this sponsible for arranging private specialist point, new services are operating in South outreach services. They are working to an Australia, Tasmania, New South Wales and agreed timetable and are well on track. Spe- the Northern Territory, with service plans in cialist services in public hospitals are being other states approved or in the final stages of funded via the state health departments. We development. This means that rural Austra- have a consultative process to work out lians are now receiving a specialist medical where the gaps are and how best to fill them. service that they were not receiving previ- Following community consultation, the ously and were not receiving under the Labor New South Wales Rural Doctors Network or government. the state government department submits Roads: Funding proposals to the Commonwealth. These are then considered by the state based advisory Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- committee, which advises on the appropri- sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- ateness of the submission and the extent to tion) (3.04 p.m.)—Yesterday, Senator Harris which it meets the needs. This is an impor- asked me a question about the Mount tant process but, as you can well understand, Morgan Shire Council and the Roads to Re- it takes time. At times the proposals fall short covery program money. I referred the matter of fitting the program guidelines, and these to Mr Anderson’s office, and I have been have been returned to the responsible body told that, as I suspected, there is not a cap of for further development. The goal is to sup- $130,000 or 50 per cent in any one year. The port a series of services that benefit the program is a four-year program. Under nor- community. mal events, one quarter of it would be al- lowed each year. I am told that the reason I remind honourable senators that a spe- why there is no allocation for the third year, cialist outreach assistance program did not the year 2003, is that the time for putting 522 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 forward submissions for that year has not yet profit; when Peter Costello managed the arrived and so there have been no allocations policy, there was $5 billion worth of losses. made. Certainly any part of the legislated How does the Treasurer try to weasel out of allocation of $262,000 for the Mount it today? He keeps trying to say, ‘I knew Morgan council, which is unpaid at the end nothing about it.’ He did nothing in 1997-98 of the program, will be paid at the end of the when Treasury lost $2.1 billion. He did program. I do say to Senator Harris and to nothing in 1999-2000 when they lost another the Mount Morgan council that if they con- $1.1 billion. He did nothing in 2000-01 when tact Mr Anderson’s office I am very certain they lost another couple of billion dollars. that they will be able to work through the That is what has been happening. issue with the transport minister’s office and Senator Hill—Did you say it was a dud come to a conclusion that satisfactorily policy? You introduced it. meets the needs and wishes of the Mount Morgan council. Senator CONROY—It is a dud policy if you ignore what has happened. It is a dud Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (3.05 policy if you ignore the change in economic p.m.)—I thank the minister for his answer to circumstances. that question. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: (Senator Knowles)—Senator Conroy, please TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS address your comments to the chair. Economy: Debt Management Senator CONROY—If Senator Hill Senator CONROY (Victoria) (3.06 knew anything about this area, he would un- p.m.)—I move: derstand that what has happened is that, as That the Senate take note of the answer given Simon Crean has said, Peter Costello fell by the Minister for Finance and Administration asleep at the roulette wheel. Interest rates (Senator Minchin) to a question without notice closed down six or seven points Australia- asked by Senator Conroy today relating to debt US. What does the government do? What management and currency swaps. does Peter Costello do? He endorses the Over the last five years, it has come out that policy in 1997, he endorses the policy in the government has lost almost $5 billion 1998 and he endorses the policy in 1999. through speculating on US dollars versus How did he endorse the policy without any- Australian dollars. The original rationale for one mentioning they had lost $2 billion in this strategy that was introduced by Treasury 1997 and $1 billion in 1999? Yet he still kept and the Labor government in 1987 was that giving it the big tick. This is a bloke who there was a favourable interest rate differen- was not just asleep at the wheel, he was tial between Australia and the US, which asleep at the roulette wheel. What he is try- meant cost savings could be achieved. If you ing to say is that during all of this, despite look at the chart released by Senator Coonan, providing ministerial endorsements of the it shows that in the years 1987 to 1996 the annual strategy, despite the disappearance of Labor government presided over $2½ billion the interest rate differential, despite the col- in profit in this scheme. Then, when you lapse in the currency in 1997 and despite the look at what happened to interest rates on the fact that there had been eight policy reviews international markets, you see that by 1997 between 1996 and 1999—that is two reviews the interest differential between Australia a year—he did nothing. and the United States had fallen to virtually By mid-2000 even the Reserve Bank had zero. In other words, the entire rationale for noticed that the Treasury and the Treasurer’s borrowing in US dollars was gone. policy were causing a problem. The Reserve What did the Treasurer do? Nothing. What Bank governor was so aghast at what the are the consequences of the Treasurer’s in- Treasury was up to that he was compelled to action? Five billion dollars’ worth of losses. intervene in the management of government That is what we have seen. When Labor debt. As Terry McCrann said this morning, managed the policy, there was $2.5 billion of this is quite extraordinary. The Treasurer’s Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 523 defence is that he relied on the Treasury who government has paid back so much debt, we gave him advice from external advisers. But now save $4 billion a year on that alone. did he follow the advice? In 1998, UBS rec- Senator Sherry—And you have lost five. ommended a fundamental change to the strategy for managing the government debt Senator MASON—Senator Sherry, you and, if followed, it would have cut the expo- may want to compare the Labor govern- sure to foreign currencies and substantially ment’s approach with this government’s ap- reduced the losses. Treasurer, if you were proach to debt management, but there is no aware of the mounting cost of this policy, comparison. More generally, let me put it why didn’t you act? Treasurer, if you were this way: the economic news in this country not aware, why weren’t you? As the sup- today in 2002 is that our economy is growing posed guardian of taxpayers’ money, what at about 4.1 per cent per annum. That is 10 else were—and are—you not aware of? times the average growth of other developed (Time expired) countries throughout the world. Senator MASON (Queensland) (3.11 Senator Cook—Thanks to the Labor p.m.)—This is an issue about debt manage- Party’s reform. You are living off the back of ment. what we did. Senator Sherry interjecting— Senator MASON—Senator Cook inter- rupts. This is the best economic news that Senator MASON—There are two ap- this nation has ever had. We had to survive, proaches to debt management in this coun- for the first time ever, a recession in the try: one of them is the Labor Party’s ap- United States of America, and we have pros- proach to debt management, Senator Sherry; pered. Let me say that again: the United and the other one is the Liberal Party’s ap- States went into recession, Japan went into proach to debt management. Senator Conroy recession, East Asia went into recession— is quite right that the Labor Party instigated and this country recorded the highest growth the notion of currency buybacks. It is true rates in the Western world. that the Treasurer adopted that approach for quite some time. He has now rejected that Those opposite cannot compare their ap- approach and the policy has been changed. palling economic management in the last There was foreign currency exposure in this five or six years of the Keating and the nation, and other Western nations adopted a Hawke governments with the performance of similar approach—Canada did, I think the this government. And that is the problem. Italians did and the Danish did. The issue There is silence all of a sudden over the other today in this country— side because, in any objective comparison between the Howard government and the Senator Ludwig—Is the four years it governments of Hawke and Keating, there is took him! no comparison. This government has pro- Senator MASON—Senator Ludwig, the duced an economy that has effectively fire- issue today is the capacity of this govern- proofed it from the rest of the world, irre- ment, as compared to the former govern- spective of economic downturns in Asia, the ment, to control debt. On that issue, you do United States and Western Europe, making not have any credibility at all. The $80 bil- these the most fantastic economic figures in lion debt that you rolled up over the last five a generation. That is what the Labor Party years that you were in government was some hates: 4.1 per cent growth; 10 times the of the most pathetic economic management growth of all the other countries in the de- that this country has ever seen. Do you know veloped world. That lot opposite cannot how much it cost? Just the interest on the compete with that. money the Labor government borrowed to Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (3.16 pay back their debt was about $8 billion a p.m.)—Senator Mason was right in his cen- year. That is right: the interest it cost was tral contention when he said that the issue is about $8 billion a year. Because the Howard the Labor Party’s management of debt versus the Liberal Party’s management of debt. He 524 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 was right when he said that there was no tello, would dash out a press release and say, comparison. From the time this policy began ‘I’d like to acknowledge and pay tribute to in 1987 under a Labor government until the the Labor Party policy which it commenced Labor government was defeated in 1996, the back in 1987’? Of course not! The current Labor Party and the treasurers during that Treasurer is not noted for his modesty, and period of time presided over a profit of just he is certainly not noted for acknowledging over $2 billion. Since 1997, under the current any credit whatsoever to the Labor Party Treasurer—and there has been only one: Mr when it was in government until 1996. Costello—there has been a loss of almost $5 The Treasurer will not accept that he has billion. So under Labor there was a profit of been the Treasurer since 1996 and that he is just over $2 billion in 10 years and under the the one who has presided over this mess, this current Treasurer, Mr Costello—and no-one loss of $5 billion—he and his department, would doubt that the Treasurer of this coun- but he is the political head. The Treasurer, try has been anyone but Mr Costello since Mr Costello, is the one who is accountable. March 1996—there has been a loss of almost He has presided over the transactions that $5 billion. occurred in respect of these losses of $5 bil- What is Mr Costello’s excuse for this ap- lion. He cannot have it both ways. He cannot palling management of Australia’s currency take all the credit for everything that has and debt? He basically has two excuses. The happened since 1996 and then when it is first is that he did not know. That has been a convenient—when something goes wrong on very common defence from this government his watch, when he has been Treasurer—say, in recent times—that it does not know any- ‘It was all the Labor Party’s fault prior to thing that has been going on in terms of the 1996.’ He cannot have it both ways. He has public sector. Mr Costello says that he did fundamentally been asleep at the wheel. I do not know, that he was first advised of these not believe anyone seriously believes that he losses on 9 November 2000. The Treasurer, did not read his own department’s reports, Mr Costello, claims that he first came to commencing in 1997-98, which reported that know about these huge losses of billions of these losses were occurring. He has been at dollars on 9 November 2000. I do not know fault. He has adopted the wrong policy. And whether the Treasurer bothers to read the unfortunately the taxpayers will suffer to the reports from his own department, but the tune of $5 billion over the next eight years. Treasury department started to refer to losses We will be paying for this massive misman- in its various reports back in 1997-98. That is agement of $5 billion for the next eight when Treasury first started reporting the years. losses. Yet the Treasurer claims that he did Senator WATSON (Tasmania) (3.21 not know about it until 9 November 2000— p.m.)—For those listening to the debate, I over two years later. It defies belief that the think it might be useful to explain what we current Treasurer does not read the reports are talking about. We are talking about what from his own department. He must have is known as a ‘swaps program’ which is un- known as far back as 1997-98 that these dertaken by Treasury. That program involves losses were occurring. the swapping of one set of liabilities for an- The second excuse that is advanced by the other. Unfortunately, in this debate this after- current Treasurer is that it is all the Labor noon, there have been a number of errors Party’s fault. He says that it began the policy, perpetuated by speakers from the Australian therefore the losses he has presided over as Labor Party. During questioning at estimates, Treasurer since 1996 have to be the Labor this system of adding losses year by year was Party’s fault. This is an interesting argument. refuted by representatives from the Austra- Let us assume that, under the current Treas- lian Treasury. Despite that tap on the knuck- urer, Mr Costello, a profit—a profit, not a les, the speakers this afternoon have contin- loss—of $5 billion had been made on this ued to perpetuate that error. The losses from debt management. Does anyone seriously year to year are unrealised losses reported. believe that the current Treasurer, Mr Cos- We do not add those losses because they rec- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 525 ognise the value of the exchange rate and ernment the debt was something like $16 interest rates prevailing at a point in time. billion since Federation, but it increased by Back in 1992 I queried this program at the something like $80 billion to $96 billion by estimates and raised this issue with none the time Labor left government. So there is other than Senator McMullan. Unfortunately, nothing for the Labor Party to be proud of. It Senator McMullan was unable to answer my locked us into a high, hard currency, the US question and he flicked it off to a Treasury currency, from which there was no retreat representative. I was concerned about a gov- because the dollar had already, under its ernment entering into a swaps type program mismanagement, deteriorated to something which was really not the province of gov- of the order of 50c in the dollar. So what we ernment at the time. As other commentators are looking at now is that under our better are now saying, it is best left to the private management there is likely to be an im- sector. What was done in 1992 was not the provement in the exchange rate between the sort of swaps or derivative type programs Australian dollar and the American dollar. that we see operating nowadays. The final outcome, if this hardening of the Australian dollar continues, is that we are Senator Conroy—Madam Acting Deputy likely to get a better result than has been President, I raise a point of order. Unfortu- forecast by the doomsayers on the other side. nately Senator Watson has misled the cham- ber and I ask him to withdraw. The Senate Senator Cook—Are you saying that the estimates record was corrected by Dr Parkin- Australian dollar will appreciate against the son, who admits that the figures are not cu- US dollar? mulative and are in fact able to be added. Senator WATSON—Everybody knows That is a very serious misleading of the Sen- that at the present time the Australian dollar ate. is undervalued relative to most other curren- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT cies in the world, and even you are nodding (Senator Knowles)—That is a debating to that, Senator Cook. So, other things being point, not an issue of a point of order. equal, with the continuation of the strong economic management of Peter Costello and Senator WATSON—I refuse to withdraw, the Howard government, if you ask anybody because the losses in relation to a swaps pro- interested in exchange rate movements they gram are in a sense not losses until they are will say that the Australian dollar is under- realised in a budgetary sense. You cannot go valued— (Time expired) from year to year and say that the losses in years 1, 2 and 3 are essentially, say, $1 bil- Senator COOK (Western Australia) (3.26 lion plus $2.5 billion plus $3 billion. They p.m.)—Before I start on the body of my re- might be $4 billion compared with year 1 marks, I need to refute two things that have when it commenced to year 2 when it is go- been said by the previous speaker. The first ing to be realised. What we also have to re- relates to the $5 billion worth of unrealised alise is that when these swaps programs are losses that are being quoted here. What finally discharged that will be the time to needs to be said about this is that the ac- look at the losses. counting system under which the Common- wealth now operates is the accrual account- The point I was making was about the in- ing method. It was touted as a major reform appropriateness of the Labor Party entering by this government when we moved to ac- into these particular programs at that time. crual accounting. Under accrual accounting The Labor Party set the seal, because during there is no such thing as unrealised losses. So that time they swapped from the European to hear from the government that these are and Japanese type currencies into the hard not real losses but are unrealised losses, American currency. There was a gyration in when it has changed the accounting system the value of our dollar under Labor’s admini- which defines that out of existence, is a total stration and at the same time we had a great red herring, if not a mislead. build-up in the amount of debt. For example, at the time of the Labor Party’s taking gov- Secondly, the previous speaker talked about the inappropriateness of entering into 526 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 currency swaps. There was nothing inappro- bring this government down eventually. priate about this policy when it was intro- Certainly, it has ruined its reputation for fi- duced. The problem was that the circum- nancial management in the eyes of the mar- stances changed later. What is inappropriate ket because the practice that this government is to maintain a policy that was appropriate has entered into would not be accepted if this to the circumstances at the time and not government were a listed company on the change it when those circumstances alter. stock exchange reporting to its shareholders. The circumstances that altered here were on At a shareholders’ meeting, if the Treasurer the watch of Mr Costello. The circumstances is regarded as the director and did not report altered when interest rates, which classically to shareholders a $5 billion trading loss, between Australia and the US always were shareholders would want to know why and higher in Australia because we are a net bor- would dismiss him. If it were a statutory cor- rower on the international market, reversed poration and did report up-front and honestly and US interest rates went above Australian a $5 billion trading loss, the directors of that interest rates. That is when the warning sig- statutory corporation would rightfully be nals should have gone off and that is when dismissed, but the Treasurer does not report the practice should have altered. That was a it. significant, fundamental change to the whole This is taxpayers’ money. This is $5 bil- financial structure which this policy was lion worth of health and education expendi- built on. To pretend that this is a Labor pol- ture that we do not have that could have icy—4½ years after this government took made life better for millions of Australians, office and it was still administering a Labor which now will not. This is taxpayers’ policy—and therefore it is a responsibility of money he has speculated on. To not reveal the former Labor government is gross dis- the advice he got from Treasury condemns honesty in these circumstances. It is just him because Treasury provided him with laughed out of court by anyone who knows advice at critical junctures when he could anything at all about this issue. have reviewed this policy. We have asked for The word ‘cover-up’ occurs here. Let me that advice to be tabled so that it is open and offer a bit of advice. Governments should transparent, but the cover-up continues. That remember that there is a law of politics advice will not be tabled; the Treasurer has which says that, whatever the problems with made that clear. Do not cover up, is my ad- the original sin, it is better to admit that sin vice to the government, because you get up-front and promptly because the damage caught every time. (Time expired) done by covering up is always worse. Did Question agreed to. the government come forward and reveal Immigration: ‘Children Overboard’ that it lost $5 billion? No, of course it did Affair not. It hid it on page 80 of this document, Environment: Great Barrier Reef Marine which was only found by forensic work by Park Authority Senator Conroy’s office and then dealt with in estimates. It hid it here. It is a criticism of Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (3.31 the Australian Office of Financial Manage- p.m.)—I move: ment that I now make, that nowhere in this That the Senate take note of the answers given report by this office is it said up-front and by the Minister for Defence (Senator Hill) to honestly that this has occurred. questions without notice asked by the Leader of Senator Conroy—Which page? Where the Australian Democrats (Senator Stott Despoja) and Senator Bartlett today relating to aspects of do they tell you? executive accountability. Senator COOK—On pages 80 and 81 of the reference pages that should be gone to. Both those answers highlight a continuing The Treasurer knew. Senator Sherry is right: thread from this government—this links to if the Treasurer had made $5 billion profit, the closing words of Senator Cook—which would he have hid that from the Australian is the ongoing habit of this government to people? When he made a $5 billion loss, he cover up. We have seen the provocative and did. The cover-up which now goes on will pre-emptive decision of cabinet yesterday to Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 527 prevent senior ministerial advisers, who are briefings to be provided and for a ministerial pivotal in the whole ‘children overboard’ adviser to be present whenever those brief- issue, from giving their side of the story to ings occur. It raises again the question of the the Senate committee. This highlights again adequacy of scrutiny of the activities of the the growing contempt of this government for government of the day. any form of proper public scrutiny. It is The Great Barrier Reef Marine Park worth re-emphasising that it is the role of the Authority appears before estimates commit- Senate in particular to monitor the activities tees, is always very open and accessible and and operations of the government, the ex- freely answers many questions that are put to ecutive of the day. This particular incident, it, but ministerial advisers who sit in on such which has generated a lot of interest and meetings, who may well be the eyes and ears public debate, deserves appropriate scrutiny. of the minister, are not able to be questioned That is the reason why the Senate has de- about their performance. In effect, they can cided to establish the Senate Select Com- sit in judgment on the activities of the de- mittee on a Certain Maritime Incident to look partment or the authority in question but they at that specific incident. It cannot be empha- themselves are beyond scrutiny because of sised strongly enough how crucial it is that the way this process operates. It is an ongo- those sorts of inquiries have the opportunity ing common thread from this government in to extract the full evidence. We have seen relation to both of those issues that were now a clear attempt by this government to raised by the Democrats today. try to duck that scrutiny. We have heard It is quite clear from Minister Hill’s re- statements by former Minister Reith also sponse to the second question from me that indicating his unwillingness to put on the the government is uncomfortable with the public record what happened. fact that the spotlight is being shone on their It is one thing for the government to mag- attempts to control access to information and nanimously decide to have an internal in- to monitor activities and operations of inde- quiry and table the report—that is useful as pendent statutory authorities in their day-to- far as it goes—but it is to be a private in- day activities in relation to simply providing quiry. We do not get to see the answers that information to members of parliament. It is a each of those people give and we certainly bizarre situation when independent statutory do not get a chance to question those people authorities have to rely on the minister of the directly to clarify any extra evidence that we day to tell them who they can and cannot talk may be trying to obtain. It is a clear indica- to, when they can do it and who can be in tion of this government’s desire to continue attendance. That sort of thing is completely to try to cover up the facts of what happened. inappropriate interference and begs the Mr Howard has repeatedly said that he has question whether or not there is some extra nothing to hide, yet he is trying to make sure suspicion on the part of the new Minister for that some of the key people in the whole epi- the Environment and Heritage wanting to sode are kept hidden from public scrutiny. curtail the independence of the Great Barrier We have a similar scenario in relation to Reef Marine Park Authority. (Time expired) this new approach by the new Minister for PETITIONS the Environment and Heritage not wishing to The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged have simple, plain, open interaction between for presentation as follows: the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Author- ity and elected public officials and parlia- Science: Stem Cell Research mentarians. It is worth reminding the Senate To the Honourable the President and members of that the marine park authority is not a gov- the Senate assembled in Parliament: ernment department; it is an independent The petition of certain citizens of Australia draws to the attention of the Senate that we are con- statutory authority that works with a number cerned at the destruction of human embryos by of tiers of government. The Democrats be- scientists extracting embryonic stem cells and lieve it is inappropriate for such an authority concerned at proposals by scientists to clone hu- basically to have to rely on the whim of an man embryos for the purpose of extracting em- individual minister to give permission for bryonic stem cells. 528 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Your petitioners therefore pray that the Senate some cases in contravention of our national obli- will: gations as a signatory of the UN Covenant on (1) Oppose the creation of embryos for the pur- Civil and Political Rights. pose of extracting stem cells and any other We, therefore, the individual, undersigned Mem- scientific purpose (therapeutic cloning); bers Ecumenical Service and McKinnon Secon- (2) Oppose the use of already existing embryos dary College, Victoria 3204, petition the Senate in for the purpose of extracting stem cells and support of the abovementioned Motion. any other scientific purpose; And we, as in duty bound will ever pray. (3) Support, encourage and fund scientific re- by Senator Tchen (from 53 citizens) search using adult stem cells from all sources Petitions received. including umbilical cord blood. by Senator Forshaw (from 451 citizens) LEAVE OF ABSENCE Immigration: Asylum Seekers Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (3.38 p.m.)—I move: To the Honourable the President and the Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled: That leave of absence be granted to Senator McKiernan and Senator Gibbs from Wednesday, Whereas the 1998 Synod of the Anglican Diocese 13 March to Friday, 22 March 2002 on account of of Melbourne carried without dissent the follow- absence due to parliamentary business overseas. ing Motion: Question agreed to. That this Synod regrets the Government’s adop- tion of procedures for certain people seeking po- NOTICES litical asylum in Australia which exclude them Presentation from all public income support while withholding permission to work, thereby creating a group of Senator Allison to move on the next day beggars dependent on the Churches and charities of sitting: for food and the necessities of life; That there be laid on the table by the Minister and calls upon the Federal government to review for Defence (Senator Hill), no later than such procedures immediately and remove all immediately after motions to take note of answers practices which are manifestly inhumane and in on 20 March 2002, the following documents: some cases in contravention of our national obli- R225.040 Health Physics—Tolerances gations as a signatory of the UN Covenant on Ingested and Inhaled Materials Civil and Political Rights. R225.041 Health Physics—External Ra- We, therefore, the individual, undersigned Mem- diations bers of St Aidan’s Anglican Church, Carrum, R216.010 Chemical Warfare Testing Victoria 3197, petition the Senate in support of Sites—Report by Joint Aus/US the abovementioned Motion. Survey Team And we, as in duty bound will ever pray. R217.025 Effect on Personnel of Atomic by Senator McGauran (from 53 citizens) Testing at Maralinga Immigration: Asylum Seekers R100.018 DCMO Brisbane and Amber- ley To the Honourable the President and the Members of the Senate in Parliament assembled: R208.010 Certificates for wounds and hurts Whereas the 1998 Synod of the Anglican Diocese of Melbourne carried without dissent the follow- R065.015 Likelihood of Clandestine In- ing Motion: troduction of Nuclear Weapons That this Synod regrets the Government’s adop- into Australia tion of procedures for certain people seeking po- R065.046 UK Testing at Woomera of litical asylum in Australia which exclude them Missiles with Nuclear War- from all public income support while withholding heads permission to work, thereby creating a group of R210.004 Radiation Dose Records beggars dependent on the Churches and charities R010.002 Comparison of UK Personnel for food and the necessities of life; Listings Against Exposure Re- and calls upon the Federal government to review cords in Australia such procedures immediately and remove all practices which are manifestly inhumane and in Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 529

R228.022 Safety Procedures and Health (ii) any amendment to the provision of Effects—Investigations neutron beam assemblies, specifically R009.011 Weapons Atomic Test Program any amendment to the provision of Investigation of Safety and two thermal neuron beam assemblies Health Effect. and an additional beam assembly for a hot neutron source, and Senator Carr to move on the next day of sitting: (iii) project cost revisions consequent on such variations, as well as documents That there be laid on the table, by the Minister relating to the effect of any such for Health and Ageing (Senator Patterson), no variations on the research capacity later than immediately after motions to take note and potential of the reactor. of answers on Tuesday, 19 March 2002, the following documents: Senator George Campbell to move on the next day of sitting: (a) all documents provided by Australian Nuclear Science and Technology (1) That the Employment, Workplace Organisation (ANSTO) officials based in Relations and Education References Argentina to ANSTO or the Government Committee inquire into the education of since September 2001, including but not students with disabilities, including restricted to matters of the financial learning disabilities, throughout all condition of INVAP, its capacity to fully levels and sectors of education, with deliver the current contract, its repeated particular reference to: applications for Argentinian government (a) whether current policies and pro- loans and any discussion of renegotiated grams for students with disabilities financial arrangements for the Lucas are adequate to meet their education Heights contract; needs, including, but not limited to: (b) all documents relating to discussions (i) the criteria used to define disability between the CEO of ANSTO and other and to differentiate between levels senior ANSTO staff and INVAP or any of handicap, other Argentinian government agency, (ii) the accuracy with which students’ including but not restricted to the disability-related needs are being financial circumstances of INVAP, its assessed, capacity to fully deliver the current Lucas Heights contract, its repeated (iii) the particular needs of students applications for Argentinian government with disabilities from low socio- loans and any discussion or economic, non-English speaking consideration of renegotiated financial and Indigenous backgrounds, and arrangements for the contract; from rural and remote areas, (c) all documents relating to the termination (iv) the effectiveness and availability provisions in the contract entered into of early intervention programs, with INVAP; (v) access to and adequacy of funding (d) all documents substantiating the claims and support in both the public and made by the Minister for Science (Mr private sectors, Peter McGauran) on the Radio National (vi) the nature, extent and funding of Earthbeat program on 23 February 2002 programs that provide for full or that, ‘We are constantly monitoring the partial learning opportunities with situation, through our Ambassador mainstream students, specifically’ and ‘We are alert to any (vii) teacher training and professional flow on effects from the difficulties of development, and the Argentinian economy, but INVAP is (viii) the legal implications and resource insulated, to all intents and purposes, demands of current Common- from those problems’; and wealth and state and territory leg- (e) all documents relating to: islation; and (i) any variations in the specifications (b) what the proper role of the Common- and capacity of the proposed new wealth and states and territories reactor since formal negotiations with should be in supporting the education INVAP were commenced, of students with disabilities. 530 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

(2) That the committee report to the Senate (c) development cooperation relationships by the last sitting day in October 2002. with the various states of the region, Senator Hogg to move on the next day of including the future direction of the sitting: overall development cooperation pro- gram; and (1) That the following matter be referred to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade (d) the implications for Australia of political, economic and security References Committee for inquiry and developments in the region. report by 2 December 2002: Whether the current materiel Senator Ian Campbell to move on the acquisition and management frame- next day of sitting: work of the Department of Defence is That the following bill be introduced: A Bill effective in meeting the organisation’s for an Act to amend the Plant Breeder’s Rights equipment requirements. Act 1994, and for related purposes. Plant (2) In considering this matter, the committee Breeder’s Rights Amendment Bill 2002. is to examine and report on the following Postponement issues: Items of business were postponed as fol- (a) whether the current materiel acqui- lows: sition and through-life support system is meeting, and will continue to meet, General business notice of motion no. 16 the needs of Defence and Defence standing in the name of Senator Brown for industries in a timely, cost-effective today, relating to the introduction of the and qualitative manner; Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry into Forestry Tasmania Bill 2002, postponed till (b) the impact of the Defence Materiel 20 March 2002. Organisation acquisition reform pro- gram on materiel acquisition and General business notice of motion no. 4 management; standing in the name of Senator Bourne for today, relating to the Dalai Lama, post- (c) the current status of major equipment poned till 13 March 2002. projects in meeting the organisation’s requirements; General business notice of motion no. 29 standing in the name of Senator Allison for (e) the impact of the creation of today, relating to tobacco advertising at the decentralised System Program Offices Australian Grand Prix, postponed till on materiel acquisition and manage- 13 March 2002. ment; and General business notice of motion no. 2 (f) any other issues relevant to the standing in the name of Senator Allison for effectiveness of the current acqui- today, relating to the establishment of a sitions framework which arise in the select committee on superannuation, post- course of the inquiry. poned till 13 March 2002. Senator Hogg to move on the next day of General business notice of motion no. 30 sitting: standing in the name of Senator Brown for That the following matter be referred to the today, relating to the business appoint- Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References ments of ministers after leaving office, Committee for inquiry and report by 2 December postponed till 13 March 2002. 2002: FINANCIAL CORPORATIONS Australia’s relationship with Papua New (TRANSFER OF ASSETS AND Guinea and the island states of the south- LIABILITIES) AMENDMENT BILL west Pacific (known as Oceania or the 2002 South Pacific), with particular reference to: First Reading (a) the current state of political relations Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western between regional states and Australia Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the and New Zealand; Treasurer) (3.39 p.m.)—I move: (b) economic relations, including trade, That the following bill be introduced: a Bill for tourism and investment; an Act to amend the Financial Corporations Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 531

(Transfer of Assets and Liabilities) Act 1993, and Passage of the bill will enable foreign banks to for related purposes. structure their operations with a clearer under- Question agreed to. standing of the tax regime. Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western The bill will enable a smooth continuation of business activities resulting in positive flow-on Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the effects to the Australian economy and employ- Treasurer) (3.39 p.m.)—I move: ment levels. That this bill may proceed without formalities There is strong support from the banking industry and be now read a first time. (including the International Banks and Securities Question agreed to. Association of Australia (IBSA) and Australian Bill read a first time. Banking Association (ABA) members) for the bill to be passed as soon as possible in order to give Second Reading foreign banks comfort in arranging their regula- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western tory status following introduction of the thin Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the capitalisation regime from 1 July 2002. Passage Treasurer) (3.39 p.m.)—I table the explana- of the bill is also supported by the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA), the tory memorandum and move: prudential regulator of banking in Australia. That this bill be now read a second time. Passage of the bill is consistent with promoting I seek leave to have the second reading Australia as a centre for global financial services speech incorporated in Hansard. and will enhance its standing amongst the inter- Leave granted national business community. I commend the bill to the Senate. The speech read as follows— Ordered that further consideration of the I rise today to introduce a bill that gives effect to extending the sunset clause until 30 June 2003 for second reading of this bill be adjourned to banks obtaining a banking authority in order to be the first sitting day of the next period of sit- eligible for concessional tax treatment when tings, in accordance with standing order 111. transferring assets and liabilities. The extension BUSINESS of the sunset clause was announced by the Min- ister for Financial Services and Regulation in Rearrangement August 2001. The existing concession is provided Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western for in the Financial Corporations (Transfer of Australia—Manager of Government Busi- Assets and Liabilities) Act 1993, however this ness in the Senate) (3.40 p.m.)—I move: concession expired on 30 June 2001. The exten- That on Tuesday, 12 March 2002: sion will apply from 1 July 2001 to maintain con- tinuity in the application of the sunset clause and (a) the hours of meeting shall be 2 pm to 6.30 to prevent ambiguity in interpreting the status of pm and 7.30 pm to 11.10 pm; transfers since 30 June 2001. (b) the routine of business from 7.30 pm to Passage of the bill I introduce today will also 10.30 pm shall be the consideration of the extend the deadline to effect any subsequent address-in-reply; transfer of assets and liabilities from 30 June (c) if a division is called for after 7.30 pm, 2004 to 30 June 2006. the matter before the Senate shall be The continuation of the concession is consistent adjourned until the next day of sitting at with the original intent of the Act of helping for- a time fixed by the Senate; and eign banks restructure their operations in Austra- (d) the question for the adjournment of the lia by enabling certain taxes and charges to be Senate shall be proposed at 10.30 pm. waived on the transfer of assets and liabilities Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (3.40 (including tax losses). p.m.)—by leave—I wish to make a number When the sunset clause expired on 30 June 2001, of comments in relation to the hours of busi- there was confusion in the industry due to the ness. I thank Senator Campbell for allowing uncertain impact of unresolved tax issues relating to thin capitalisation legislation and consolidation me to make some statements in relation to legislation. This resulted in foreign banks being this point. The intention of the opposition is uncertain about the appropriate structure for their to cooperate with the government’s legisla- operations in Australia. tive program so far as is possible and practi- 532 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 cal. However, it needs to be highlighted that was the week beginning 11 February—I do the Prime Minister is responsible for the sit- not have the date in front of me. Some peo- ting pattern and the sitting pattern is, as far ple said that that was a late start. as we can ascertain, quite short for the first I asked Scott Faragher, who is my assis- half—both the autumn and winter sittings— tant in this position, to do some research on of this year, which leaves very little time to the starting dates going back some years. consult and to deal with the legislative pro- The date of 11 February is quite an average gram in a practical way. sort of a date. You will know if you look We have agreed to the sitting pattern being back through history that starting dates are altered to allow the address-in-reply to con- often much later than 11 February. Give or tinue this evening. We have done that on the take a week, that is a pretty normal starting basis that it is a worthwhile process. How- time. People can argue that we could have ever, we do wish to at least highlight the come back a week earlier, but I did not see practical difficulties that confront us in any enthusiasm for that from any side of the dealing with the legislation over both the chamber, from talking to people. We do have autumn and winter sittings given the short stress on the program as normal. The sittings legislative program that is currently before for the rest of the year form into an almost us. We are also concerned that further addi- symmetrical, normal pattern of two weeks tional time may be sought where our corpo- on, two weeks off. The sitting schedules are ration may not be so readily given because of heavily weighted towards the end of the year, the lack of sitting days that are available but that does not, unfortunately, eliminate the between now and both the autumn and win- need for the government to get some essen- ter sittings. The legislative program is tight, tial legislation through prior to Easter. as I have highlighted, and the shortage of The stress on the program to date has been days will create some difficulties for every- caused by what I would regard as an unusu- one in dealing with the legislation in a prac- ally long debate, already, in relation to the tical and cooperative manner. I hope that the regional forest agreements legislation. I have seeking of additional days and hours of busi- noticed that the legislation has been debated ness to deal with such things as address-in- a couple of times here before, but I note that reply are not as readily formulated on the the committee stage has already become government’s side, with the assumption that quite elongated and that the regular calling of we will cooperate at all times. That is all I quorums has become a feature of the debate. really want to say at this point in time. I implore all senators to have a look at the Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western time that is available, have a look at the pro- Australia—Manager of Government Busi- gram and try to evaluate the priorities for the ness in the Senate) (3.42 p.m.)—Firstly, I Senate. It would be very undesirable, for think the Manager of Opposition Business example, to spend a couple of weeks dis- has hit the nail on the head. It is a restricted cussing one bill and then to have to concer- time. Yes, the government does have to set tina, potentially, another dozen bills into a the schedule and there are some unusual is- day, which has quite often been the case for sues and some that recur whenever you have the Senate in the time that I have been here. the establishment of a new parliament. We You can see one bill take an extraordinary have got a relatively early Easter this year— length of time where we have repetitive de- which I think is a good thing, particularly if bate, undoubtedly on important issues, and you live in Perth, because the weather will be then on the last day we come in here and say, nice when you have your Easter holiday. The ‘We have to get these bills passed’ and an meeting of CHOGM was delayed after the enormous amount of important legislation events of 11 September and was shifted into gets put through in a short time. It is not a this period, and then we had the commence- particularly good way to manage a legisla- ment of a new parliament. There was a bit of tive agenda. scuttlebutt around in the media when we set The government tries very hard—we often the starting date for this year, which I think fail, but we try very hard—to get the legisla- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 533 tion in and I think that is another issue that Opposition Business has indicated, we the manager on the other side would also somewhat reluctantly come to the table in recognise and one that people who have been relation to this matter. I also indicate that here for a while would recognise. I think it is here we are now on the fourth Senate sitting good for the public to recognise that, when day and the government has already asked we have a new parliament, we have to rein- for additional time. The reason for this is troduce a lot of bills that might have been on fairly obvious—and I appreciate this is the Notice Paper from the previous parlia- probably not the fault of the Manager of ment. We cannot just pick up a piece of leg- Government Business—in that the program islation and start it off from where it was is extraordinarily light on for the first half of prior to the the ending of the previous par- the year. Every one of us who saw that was liament, we have to reintroduce it. I think in immediately struck by the fact that, with the the case of this government we have had to large amount of legislation that has inevita- reintroduce dozens of pieces of legislation bly come through, as Senator Campbell has that were left over from the previous parlia- indicated, there are clearly insufficient sitting ment. days. If you look at the calendar, there are There are some special problems that oc- only another five days of sitting this fortnight cur here in the Senate. Apart from bills that and there is then a seven-week break until we can introduce here, such as the Regional the Senate resumes in budget week. The Forest Agreements Bill, there is a raft of bills government has allocated just 10 days in the that have to work their way through the pro- autumn sittings to deal with 37 bills. Obvi- cesses in the other place and wander their ously, this is not going to work, and I suspect way across the hall and get into this place we will be back for an extra week, at least. before we can deal with them. So the start of This is obviously a totally unrealistic time the legislative workload for the Senate is in relation to legislation. There is a total of quite often delayed a bit because of the 21 Senate sitting days in both the autumn House of Representatives having to deal with and winter sittings before parliament re- those bills. The government have a list of sumes in late August for the spring sittings, bills that we are working on that we regard which we as an opposition regard as inade- as essential to get passed before Easter, and I quate. Just briefly—and I thank the chamber had hoped to distribute that to leaders, whips for its indulgence—if you look at previous and the Manager of Opposition Business in years, post-election, there are some fairly the next few hours. unfavourable contrasts. For example, in 1997 I take this opportunity to say I appreciate the Senate sat for 82 days, and in 1999 the the agreement of all senators to sit tonight to Senate sat for 79 days. We, by contrast, have handle the address-in-reply, which will take only allocated 61 days for 2002. So I would some pressure off time otherwise available like to put on record that a bit more forward for government business. I implore all sena- planning would have been appreciated in tors who are involved in the regional forest relation to it, and indicate again that we are agreements debate to—certainly give it con- on the fourth day of sitting and we are being sideration, give it the sort of review that it asked for additional hours. As Senator needs; it is an important issue—try to bal- Ludwig has indicated, we will not be looking ance the need for the Senate to handle a so favourably at government requests in the whole range of legislation. I do not think it is future, but we will determine them on their good management to spend an enormous merits. amount of time on one bill and then truncate Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (3.50 the time on all the other bills. I thank all p.m.)—by leave—I am very happy to give senators giving the government the ability to support to the extra sitting hours tonight for handle the address-in-reply in this way. the address-in-reply, to help the government Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (3.48 out, and indeed the Senate. But I want to p.m.)—by leave—I would like to put some respond to the government’s call for the ex- statistics on the record. As the Manager of pedition of the regional forest agreements 534 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 legislation. I can help the government out to which he referred in relation to legislation there. If the government cares to answer the and bills building up, maybe there should be questions that are being brought forward in a more judicious assessment of the time re- the committee on such matters as why 500 quired— jobs have been shed out of the industry after Senator Ian Macdonald—You will help $80 million of taxpayers’ money has been us through with the RFA Bill, will you? put into the woodchip industry in Tasmania since Prime Minister Howard signed the re- Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I take gional forest agreement—and it repeatedly Senator Ian Macdonald’s point in relation to refuses to do so—we could move on. If the recent legislation, and I would like to put on government were able to say why it has record that my party has viewed that legisla- failed to make environmental protection a tion in a very constructive way. I do not be- matter for Commonwealth overview, and lieve that you can argue we have done any- why it refuses to agree to keep the legislative thing but debate that with a judicious use of powers in the federal minister’s hands to time. I also acknowledge the Democrats have protect Australia’s wild forests and their supported the government with the additional wildlife, when that is a national responsibil- sitting hours tonight. If there are such plans ity, we would be able to move on. These are in the near future, we would like to be con- important questions. sulted. I am sure the residents of Canberra will have a tough choice tonight as to These are important questions. I do not whether to go to the Nick Cave concert or agree with the government about the priority stay home and listen to the address-in-reply. of this matter. I wanted it through in an hour Certainly on this occasion we are happy to and a half. I have an enormous constituency support the government, but we think there in Tasmania and I also represent constituen- are some issues in relation to the light sched- cies in Western Australia, Victoria and New ule that is before us for the rest of this year. South Wales which think very differently. But if the minister, who is now giggling op- Question agreed to. posite, could answer questions instead of ADVANCE TO THE FINANCE acting like that, we could move on with that MINISTER legislation. So there is the challenge: answer Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western the questions, come forward with the factual Australia—Manager of Government Busi- information that is required and engage in a ness in the Senate) (3.55 p.m.)—I move: constructive debate. I might also say to the That consideration of the Advance to the government: if you do not want to see quo- Finance Minister as a final charge for the year rums called, have enough people in here to ended 30 June 2001 in committee of the whole be maintain a quorum on an important issue like made an order of the day for the day on which this, because it is your responsibility, and the legislation committees report on their debate will move on very swiftly indeed. examination of the Advance. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Question agreed to. tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) LUCAS HEIGHTS: NUCLEAR (3.53 p.m.)—by leave—I simply wish to state REACTOR on behalf of the Democrats that we share Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- some of the concerns that have been raised in tralia—Leader of the Australian Democrats) this debate in relation to the Senate sched- (3.56 p.m.)—I move: ule—as, indeed, our whip and others put on record at the time of the distribution of this That there be laid on the table, by the Minister for Health and Ageing (Senator Patterson), no year’s sitting schedule. We did find it ex- later than immediately after motions to take note traordinary to think that this was one of the of answers on Tuesday, 19 March 2002, the lightest sitting schedules—if not the light- following documents: est—in a non-election period. I suggest to (a) the post-September 11 security review of Senator Ian Campbell that, if the government the nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights wants to avoid that kind of concertina effect carried out by the Australian Nuclear Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 535

Science and Technology Organisation; Question agreed to. including the original analysis, and PARLIAMENTARY ZONE review documents from the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office, Approval of Works and the Australian Radiation Protection Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western and Nuclear Safety Office; Australia—Manager of Government Busi- (b) all documents relating to the modelling ness in the Senate) (3.56 p.m.)—I move: and analysis of a deliberate large aircraft That, in accordance with section 5 of the crash into the nuclear reactor at Lucas Parliament Act 1974, the Senate approves the Heights; proposal by the National Capital Authority for (c) all documents relating to the claim made capital works within the Parliamentary Zone, by John Loy at Senate estimates hearings being the refurbishment of the former on 20 February 2002, that should the Communications Centre in the John Gorton reactor at Lucas Heights be breached, the Building. ‘doses to any individual would be relatively small’ and that ‘the total Question agreed to. collective radiation dose that is figured Approval of Works in that would be comparable to, but a Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western little in excess of, the collective dose that Australia—Manager of Government Busi- was in the reference accident in the siting licence assessment for the Lucas ness in the Senate) (3.57 p.m.)—I move: Heights site, but not dramatically so’, That, in accordance with section 5 of the including any documentation modelling Parliament Act 1974, the Senate approves the this claim; proposal by the National Capital Authority for (d) any documents relating to the financial capital works within the Parliamentary Zone, capacity and viability of INVAP since 1 being the construction of two outdoor January 2002; playgrounds for the childcare centre in the Treasury Building. (e) all documents relating to the selection of INVAP through the tender process; and Question agreed to. (f) all documents relating to guarantees COMMITTEES made by the Argentinian Government in Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport relation to INVAP’s tender and Legislation Committee subsequent contract to construct the Lucas Heights reactor. Extension of Time Question agreed to. Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.57 p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Crane, I move: RUSSELL, SERGEANT ANDREW That the time for the presentation of the report Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the Legislation Committee on the 2001-02 additional Treasurer) (3.56 p.m.)—I move: estimates be extended to 21 March 2002. That the Senate— Question agreed to. (a) records its deep regret at the death, on 17 Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade February 2002, of Sergeant Andrew Legislation Committee Russell during active service in Afghanistan; Extension of Time (b) notes with appreciation the efforts of all Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.58 Australian military personnel engaged in p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Sandy Mac- the war against terrorism; donald, I move: (c) recognises the major risks our defence That the time for the presentation of the report forces are prepared to take to reduce the of the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade risk to Australians and our friends of Legislation Committee on the 2001-02 additional harm through terrorist attacks; and estimates be extended to 21 March 2002. (d) extends it sincere condolences to the Question agreed to. wife and family of the late Sergeant Andrew Russell. 536 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Meeting appear before the committee at that Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.58 hearing for that purpose; p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Sandy Mac- (c) directs the Minister to ensure that the donald, I move: relevant officers bring to the hearing and make available to the committee for That the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade inspection and use, relevant document- Legislation Committee be authorised to hold a ation, including: public meeting during the sitting of the Senate on 12 March 2002, from 6 pm to 7.30 pm, to take (i) copies of all reviews undertaken since evidence for the committee’s inquiry on the 2001- 1996 of the management program for 02 additional estimates for the Department of the Commonwealth debt portfolio, Veterans’ Affairs. including but not limited to: Question agreed to. (A) AOFM: Review of Foreign Cur- rency Exposure, 2000-01, as cited Legal and Constitutional Legislation in the AOFM Annual Report, Committee 2000-01, Extension of Time (B) UBS: A Benchmark for the Com- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.58 monwealth Debt Portfolio, May p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Payne, I move: 1996, as cited on page 48 of Auditor-General’s report no. 14 of That the time for the presentation of the report 1999-2000, of the Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee on the 2001-02 additional estimates (C) UBS: Review of the Benchmark, be extended to 21 March 2002. June 1998, as cited on page 50 of Auditor-General’s report no. 14 of Question agreed to. 1999-2000, Meeting (D) Department of the Treasury: Re- Senator CALVERT (Tasmania) (3.59 view of the Benchmark, December p.m.)—On behalf of Senator Payne, I move: 1996, as cited on page 54 of Auditor-General’s report no. 14 of That the Legal and Constitutional Legislation 1999-2000, Committee be authorised to hold a public meeting during the sitting of the Senate on 12 March (E) Department of the Treasury: Re- 2002, from 7 pm, to take evidence for the view of the Benchmark, November committee’s inquiry on the 2001-02 additional 1997, as cited on page 54 of estimates. Auditor-General’s report no. 14 of 1999-2000, Question agreed to. (F) Department of the Treasury: Re- Economics Legislation Committee view of the Benchmark, August Meeting 1998, as cited on page 54 of Senator CONROY (Victoria) (3.59 Auditor-General’s report no. 14 of 1999-2000, p.m.)—I move: (G) Bankers Trust, Carmichael Con- That the Senate— sulting and Cooper’s & Lybrand, (a) instructs the Economics Legislation Review of the Benchmark, 1997, Committee to reconvene for the as cited by the Treasurer in his consideration of additional estimates on press conference of 4 March 2002, 13 March 2002, from 9 am until no later and than 1 pm, to hear further evidence from (H) AOFM, Review of the Benchmark, the Minister representing the Treasurer November 1999, as cited in the and relevant officers concerning the AOFM submission to the Joint responsibilities of the Australian Office Committee of Public Accounts and of Financial Management (AOFM); Audit ‘Audit Recommendations (b) directs the Minister to ensure that and Status of Action as at End relevant officers, including Mr Michael April 2000’, Allen, Dr Martin Parkinson and officers (ii) File AOFM2000/00243—Executive: serving on the Australian Office of Foreign Exchange Risk Management: Financial Management Advisory Board, Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 537

Foreign Exchange Exposure Review Strategy: AOFM Liability Manage- Taskforce: CEO’s working papers, ment Committee Meeting Papers: (iii) File AOFM2000/00381—Debt Policy from 10 January 2001 meeting, and Unit: Debt Management Strategy: (xvii) File AOFM2001/00152—Portfolio Development of Debt Management Research Unit: Debt Management Strategy (Part 1), Strategy: AOFM Liability Manage- (iv) File AOFM2000/00382—Debt Policy ment Committee Meeting Papers: Unit: Debt Management Strategy: from 2 May 2001 meeting; and Development of Debt Management (d) that the time for the presentation of the Strategy (Part 2), report of the Economics Legislation (v) File AOFM2000/00383—Debt Policy Committee on the 2001-02 additional Unit: Debt Management Strategy: estimates be extended to 19 March 2002. Development of Debt Management Senator CHERRY (Queensland) (4.00 Strategy (Part 3), p.m.)—by leave—I move: (vi) File AOFM2000/00384—Debt Policy After paragraph (c), insert: Unit: Debt Management Strategy: Development of Debt Management (ca) directs the Minister to ensure that relevant Officers of the Australian Prudential Regula- Strategy (Part 4), tion Authority Insurance and Superannuation (vii) File AOFM2000/00124—Admin Statistics Unit appear before the committee Unit: AOFM Advisory Board at the hearing to provide evidence on Gen- (Part 1), eral Insurance Industry Statistics. (viii) File AOFM2000/00124—Admin Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western Unit: AOFM Advisory Board (Part Australia—Manager of Government Busi- 2), ness in the Senate) (4.00 p.m.)—by leave—I (ix) File AOFM2001/00124—Admin want to make a very brief statement. I would Unit: AOFM Advisory Board (Part like to make the point that when we—and by 3), we I mean basically all senators—are organ- (x) File AOFM2001/00124—Admin ising the estimates process it involves trying Unit: AOFM Advisory Board (Part to juggle the requirements of senators, 4), chairmen and deputy chairmen on eight dif- (xi) File AOFM2000/00316—Portfolio ferent committees and the schedules of min- Research Unit: Debt Management isters, shadow ministers and a range of other Strategy: AOFM Liability Man- people. It is a particularly hard thing to do. It agement Committee Meeting Papers: from 25 October 2000 meeting, is achieved and has been achieved quite suc- cessfully with a lot of cooperation between (xii) File AOFM2000/00147—Debt Policy all of the parties, particularly the two major Unit: Foreign Exchange Risk Man- agement: Report of the Taskforce on parties in the Senate. It has been achieved Commonwealth Foreign Exchange through working out a set of protocols that Risk Management, have been negotiated between me, the previ- (xiii) File AOFM2000/00233—Debt Policy ous Manager of Opposition Business, Sena- Unit: Swaps Policy: Monthly Fin- tor Carr, with assistance from Senator Robert ancial Reports for the Swaps Portfolio Ray from time to time on the sidelines giving during 2000-01, us the benefit of his previous experience in (xiv) File AOFM2000/00234—Debt Policy the role, and of course with the cooperation Unit: Swaps Policy: Notes Reporting of the minor parties as well. We have in on the Commonwealth of Australia’s place a set of protocols that work very effi- Swap Activities during 2000-01, ciently. They involve, generally speaking, a (xv) File AOFM2001/00015—Portfolio process whereby we allocate various depart- Research Unit: Swaps Policy: Swap ments to various committees, structure those Counterparties Utilisation of Market committees to minimise clashes between Exposure Limits, ministers and also to try and facilitate wher- (xvi) File AOFM2001/00017—Portfolio ever possible the relevant shadow minister so Research Unit: Debt Management that they can cross-examine the ministers in 538 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 portfolios they have an interest in. It has ministers and others, he and I be consulted generally worked out to be quite successful. from both sides so we can minimise clashes. We also have what is called a spill-over For example, with this committee that day—in the inside, baseball parlance of the Senator Conroy is seeking to sit tomorrow, Senate—to allow committees that have a we have already identified a clash whereby it longer process to take an extra day. The op- is going to be very hard to find the relevant position have agreed generally to provide the minister to sit. We will have to negotiate to government with advance notice, usually up find that time. All of the relevant Treasury to a week and sometimes longer, of the ministers and parliamentary secretaries are committees that they will require to answer going to be otherwise involved. We have, of further questions. That helps us, particularly course, a responsibility to either show up or in my role of trying to ensure that ministers find someone else who can. But we will are available. The great benefit of that is it work through that. It is an example of why allows ministers who are not going to be re- cooperation and discussion is preferable to quired to schedule their days away from seeing these things come up without that Canberra or doing other work. It works out consultation and discussion. I would record very effectively and, generally speaking, the my thanks to the previous Manager of Oppo- agreement has been that unless the commit- sition Business, to Senator Ludwig who has tees have been nominated they should not jumped into the role very quickly and effec- spill over. tively and to Senator Ray for his previous From time to time some committees do assistance in developing these systems and find, due to just the pure pressure of the ask all senators if they could respect those timetable and maybe particular interest in a processes and try and work within them. particular program that was unforeseen, that Senator LUDWIG (Queensland) (4.05 there is a need to seek extra time. Generally p.m.)—by leave—It really behoves me to speaking, agreements are worked out be- make some comments. Yes, there is an ex- tween the chairman of the relevant commit- traordinary amount of cooperation that is tee, the Labor Party or opposition or minor required to ensure that the estimates process party people who have an interest and the is undertaken and that the senators have got minister to find a time in the following week, sufficient time to scrutinise the government usually in the evenings, to wrap up the work. business that is before them. There is a de- That generally works well. I have generally tailed examination of the appropriate process worked on the basis that if both the parties required to be undertaken by all senators and and the minister agree to sit extra hours later it does take a significant amount of both co- in the week or the next week then that is fine operation and organisation from both the by me. government side and the opposition side. This particular proposal, as I understand Senator Ian Campbell is correct in saying it, was not the subject of consultation be- that there are protocols in place. We need to tween the two parties and certainly was not have protocols in place to ensure the smooth with me—and it is my core responsibility to running of the estimates process. But we do ensure a minister is available. I think it is have to also take into consideration that it is very desirable that where committees are a vast improvement on the system of the going to seek extra time there be a proper committee of the whole. This process does process followed. From time to time those allow us to consider the estimates process or processes do break down and I think on this the Appropriations Bill at the same time that occasion the process has broken down. I the Appropriations Bill itself is in the think I and Senator Ludwig will discuss how House—and in fact I understand it is in the to progress and improve on the existing pro- consideration stage over there and not even cess, which has evolved over time but gener- ‘in the House’. That allows a significant ally has worked well, and one of the propos- amount of time saving to be undertaken als will be to see that, even where there is while senators are examining the machina- agreement between the chairmen and the Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 539 tions of government and their expenditure in Senator ROBERT RAY (Victoria) (4.10 great detail. p.m.)—by leave—No senator, Senator Con- Given that the last time senators had a roy or anyone else, can capriciously recall great opportunity to examine government estimates committees because they feel like expenditure was during May in the last par- it. Estimates committees have been recalled liament, and given we were unable to have on four or five occasions always for the the period in November that is usually set identical reason—that is, information given aside for additional estimates, to be able to to the original hearing has been proven fit all the matters in that were required to be wrong and has been corrected by witnesses fitted in and to allow senators the opportu- at a later time. The crucial point here is that nity to scrutinise the appropriation bills by Senator Conroy was given evidence that the the Senate was no mean feat. I think senators officer later had to correct—to the order of on both sides put themselves well and truly $2 billion—which prevented Senator Conroy to the task. However, given that there was a continuing to explore matters at that com- five-month period when the parliament did mittee hearing, as a result of which the not sit due to the election and the delay that committee hearing may have taken a com- that caused, it is not surprising that there pletely different turn. I think we should un- have been some hiccups. Senator Ian Camp- derstand that this is a principle that the Sen- bell himself alluded to the problems with the ate has voted on on a number of occasions in sitting pattern earlier, where he outlined that the past. When incorrect information has obviously some problems would arise which been given—not maliciously or deliber- would cause debate on legislation to be ately—that would have changed the course short. of the questioning at the estimates commit- tee, then the committee should reconvene. It It is not unusual, given the circumstances should not reconvene because suddenly it is that we now find ourselves in, that my col- a big issue or we forgot to ask certain ques- league Senator Conroy did find during the tions or some other information has come to additional estimates process something that light somewhere else. In those circum- did require a little bit more examination, de- stances, you have to wait for the normal ro- bate and inquiry. He did what any good tation of estimates committees to pursue senator would do: he sought to exploit the those things. But it should almost be auto- opportunity and to find a suitable time. If matic—not entirely automatic; the Senate there has been an incident that requires more has to give it the tick— time to be inquired into, then a senator is entitled to seek further time to explore those Senator Murray—It has to be material. points and there should not be any restriction Senator ROBERT RAY—Yes, it has to upon that. A senator is quite entitled to come be material. But I think you would agree that to this chamber and move a motion to seek $2 billion is probably material in this case. additional time to explore those points. That That is the reason we have to agree to extra is a valid use of the Senate. He is not taking time. I agree with the comment Senator Ian up significant time of the Senate; it is a Campbell has made that the more consulta- hearing that can be held concurrently with tion you have on these issues and the more the sitting of the Senate. So there is no time you iron out the wrinkles—and he has been impost on the Senate itself. The additional very good at it; the only time the process has estimates process and the course that Senator ever tended to go off-track is when Senator Conroy has taken in all this is entirely ap- Campbell has been back in Western Australia propriate. It has allowed the additional esti- and some of the chairs have not quite under- mates to be used appropriately and to be fi- stood in which direction he has tried to take nalised. I am sure that, with good coopera- it— tion from both sides, we can always allow Senator Ian Campbell—We should have these things to occur and, of course, mini- the estimates in Western Australia; is that the mise any unforeseen circumstances and deal solution? with them as they arise. 540 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Senator ROBERT RAY—That would be McGauran, J.J.J. * Minchin, N.H. appealing to a number of us, but let us not Patterson, K.C. Payne, M.A. divert. I said I would be brief. I just reiterate Scullion, N.G. Tchen, T. that point: estimates should be recalled when Tierney, J.W. Troeth, J.M. misleading evidence is given that would Watson, J.O.W. materially affect the way the estimates com- * denotes teller mittee would proceed. Question agreed to. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT HUMAN RIGHTS (MANDATORY (Senator Lightfoot)—The question is that SENTENCING FOR PROPERTY the amendment moved by Senator Cherry be OFFENCES) BILL 2000 agreed to. Report of Legal and Constitutional Question agreed to. References Committee The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- Senator McKIERNAN (Western Austra- DENT—The question now is that the mo- lia) (4.21 p.m.)—I present the report of the tion, moved by Senator Conroy, as amended, Legal and Constitutional References Com- be agreed to. mittee on the Human Rights (Mandatory The Senate divided. [4.16 p.m.] Sentencing for Property Offences) Bill 2000, together with the Hansard record of the (The Deputy President—Senator S.M. committee’s proceedings and documents pre- West) sented to the committee. Ayes………… 34 Ordered that the report be printed. Noes………… 29 Senator McKIERNAN—I seek leave to Majority……… 5 move a motion in relation to the report. AYES Leave granted. Allison, L.F. Bartlett, A.J.J. Senator McKIERNAN—I move: Bishop, T.M. Bolkus, N. That the Senate take note of the report. Bourne, V.W. Brown, B.J. In presenting this report I make note of the Buckland, G. Carr, K.J. Cherry, J.C. Conroy, S.M. fact that it follows an earlier report tabled by Cook, P.F.S. Cooney, B.C. the Legal and Constitutional References Crossin, P.M. Crowley, R.A. Committee in March 2000 on matters arising Denman, K.J. Evans, C.V. from the Human Rights (Mandatory Sen- Faulkner, J.P. Forshaw, M.G. tencing of Juvenile Offenders) Bill 1999. Gibbs, B. Greig, B. Both of these bills—that is, the bill the sub- Hogg, J.J. Hutchins, S.P. ject of the previous inquiry and the one from Lees, M.H. Ludwig, J.W. this inquiry—were directed at overriding Lundy, K.A. Mackay, S.M. * state and territory laws which required courts McKiernan, J.P. McLucas, J.E. to sentence persons who were convicted of Murphy, S.M. Murray, A.J.M. committing property offences to particular O’Brien, K.W.K. Ray, R.F. terms of incarceration. Both bills were es- Stott Despoja, N. West, S.M. sentially directed at legislation in the North- NOES ern Territory and Western Australia. Abetz, E. Alston, R.K.R. Following the tabling of the committee’s Barnett, G. Boswell, R.L.D. report on the Human Rights (Mandatory Brandis, G.H. Calvert, P.H. Sentencing of Juvenile Offenders) Bill 1999, Campbell, I.G. Colbeck, R. the bill was debated and passed by the Sen- Crane, A.W. Ellison, C.M. ate. It was then introduced into the House of Ferris, J.M. Harradine, B. Representatives. However, it was not debated Heffernan, W. Herron, J.J. in that chamber and the bill lapsed with the Kemp, C.R. Knowles, S.C. dissolution of the last parliament. That is not, Lightfoot, P.R. Macdonald, I. however, the end of the story regarding the Macdonald, J.A.L. Mason, B.J. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 541 bill or, indeed, the report. The Common- the replacement sentencing regime for adults wealth government and the Northern Terri- who have committed property offences in the tory government agreed in July 2000 on the Territory. The committee regarded consid- introduction of, and funding for, a pre-court eration of this regime as beyond its terms of juvenile diversionary program and an im- reference. The committee considers, and all proved interpreter service for the Northern witnesses agree, that the bill would now have Territory. It was suggested in one submission no impact in the Northern Territory due to to the second inquiry: the present legislative regime in the Terri- Following the implementation of the changes tory. announced in July 2000, there are now few cases The Western Australian mandatory sen- of young offenders in the Northern Territory be- tencing legislation applies only to home bur- ing sentenced to periods of detention, who would glars. The Department of Justice report not have been so sentenced were the mandatory found that the legislation has had no impact sentencing provisions not in existence. on adults because their sentences, handed The Human Rights (Mandatory Sentencing down by the courts, are almost always more for Property Offences) Bill 2000 was intro- severe than is required by the legislation. So duced into the Senate on 6 September 2000 far as adults are concerned in Western Aus- and was referred to the committee on 24 tralia, mandatory sentencing is only an illu- May 2001. The public inquiry process was sion. The most horrifying point about the delayed by circumstances beyond the com- Western Australian mandatory sentencing mittee’s control. Two general elections— legislation is that the people who are most firstly, for the Northern Territory and, then, often locked up under it are young Aborigi- for the Commonwealth—intervened. How- nal boys from the country. Aboriginal chil- ever, that delay was fortuitous in that the new dren, particularly those in the country, are government in the Northern Territory re- less likely than others to access diversionary pealed the Territory legislation against which programs. Moreover, the only detention fa- the bill was directed and the Western Aus- cilities for children in Western Australia are tralian Department of Justice produced a re- in the Perth metropolitan area. A child will port on the operation of the relevant legisla- be detained further away from his or her tion in that state. family than will an adult convicted and sen- This report was very important insofar as tenced for a similar type of offence. it gave the committee more detailed and pre- The legislation operates anomalously in cise information on the people actually af- that the minimum period of incarceration for fected by mandatory sentencing than was third-strike home burglaries is the same for previously available. That information, how- both adults and children. Children serve half ever, was not complete, but it did enable the their sentence before becoming eligible for committee to judge how the legislation was parole whereas adults have only to serve operating. The inquiry created wide interest. one-third of their sentence before becoming The committee received 107 submissions eligible. The government’s own report said: and recorded 300 pages of evidence over While it is likely that for the most part juve- four hearings. Although the public hearings niles sentenced to detention under section 401 in Canberra and Sydney were conducted be- would have gone into detention anyway, a few fore the Northern Territory elections and the would not and for others shorter terms may have publication of the review of the Western been considered more appropriate. Australian legislation, this did not detract The home burglary rate and the police clean- from their value. up rate have not been improved by the leg- No witnesses at the Darwin public hearing islation. Western Australia has the highest expressed regret for the repeal of the Terri- rate of home burglary in the Commonwealth. tory legislation. There is only one sentencing Clearly, the legislation in that state has not regime for juveniles, whether they have worked and is now not working. committed property or other offences. On the The committee is satisfied that the man- other hand, some witnesses were critical of datory sentencing legislation does not 542 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 achieve its purpose and that it is operating Labor administration of Chief Minister Mar- unevenly, effectively catching mostly those tin, there has essentially been an abolition of who, because of their culture and locality, do mandatory sentencing laws, which were not have access to diversionary programs. In capturing young people—particularly young all justice, the Western Australian govern- Aboriginal people—at a disproportionate ment should not continue with the mandatory rate and delivering them back into society, sentencing legislation while the diversionary not any the better for it but much the worse programs available for country Aboriginal for it. children are so inadequate. The action taken by the Senate two years The committee calls on the Western Aus- ago led to the government giving financial tralian parliament to repeal the requirement assistance to the then Territory government that third-strike home burglars be imprisoned to increase diversionary options and also to or detained for at least 12 months. In the increase the number of interpreters for Abo- event that the Western Australian parliament riginal people whose first language is not does not act, it would be appropriate for English. This enabled them to understand members of the legal profession and others what was going on in the court system, with a conscience to take steps to test which is a basic tenet of justice. However, whether the legislation is constitutional or the situation has now greatly improved be- compatible with Australia’s obligations un- cause of the change of administration in the der international human rights instruments. Northern Territory. I congratulate the Martin The committee does not recommend that this administration for having moved on to a bill be passed until all other remedies for the much more thoughtful and mature way of situation have been exhausted. dealing with an undoubtedly difficult prob- With the assistance and cooperation of all lem of crime, particularly petty theft. those who lodged submissions or gave evi- In Western Australia, the blight of man- dence to the committee, the committee has datory sentencing remains, as we have just produced a concise and very balanced report. heard, and it also applies to home burglaries. I express my gratitude to my committee col- The statute is an affront to international law leagues: firstly, my deputy, Senator Payne; as well as to good domestic law, and it does Senators Cooney, Ludwig and Greig; and disproportionately capture, and therefore Senator Brown, who was a participating injure, indigenous people in Western Austra- member of the committee. I would also like lia. There are better ways of dealing with it, to record the committee’s appreciation of the including, as Senator McKiernan has said, work of the committee secretariat in connec- the diversionary programs which are notably tion with the inquiry and the report: in par- lacking, particularly in rural Western Austra- ticular, Dr Pauline Moore, Mr Noel Gregory, lia. What an affront it is to the sensitivities of Ms Saxon Patience, Ms Carol Evans and Ms good-natured Australians that young Abo- Sonia Hailes. I again thank all of the wit- riginal people can be arrested in the nesses who made submissions to the com- Kimberley and taken into detention in the mittee and who gave their time to appear south, thousands of miles away from their before the committee at our public hearings. kin, their cultural milieu and their environ- I commend the report to the Senate and to ment. The punishment is not primarily the the citizens and the parliament of Western detention, it is the separation. It is very diffi- Australia. cult for many people to understand what that Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.30 means, but it does not result in a good out- p.m.)—I am very pleased to see this report come either for those young people or for on the mandatory sentencing legislation society. As Senator McKiernan has said, the which I brought before the Senate last year. I laws have failed to result in either revenge or think the committee has done an excellent a better outcome in terms of the crime statis- job of analysing the situation in both the tics. It just has not happened. Northern Territory and Western Australia. In I disagree with the majority finding of the the Northern Territory, with the change to the committee that we should rely on some other Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 543 agent—the legal profession or somebody ment is very valuable for the Senate. Above else—to rectify the matter. The legislation all it says, ‘Don’t leave it at this. Getting the was brought in by the Australian Greens be- information is nothing if we do not act upon cause we believed that the Commonwealth it.’ I do not believe we should rely on some- should overrule the mandatory sentencing body else to take that action. laws in those two jurisdictions. It now comes Senator COONEY (Victoria) (4.37 down to Western Australia. I am not one who p.m.)—I would like to note the generous says, ‘The Western Australians will take this words of Senator Brown; besides being gen- to the High Court, therefore we should back erous, they are very accurate words. This is a off.’ We have an obligation which is domes- good report—the sort of report we have tic, and we have a power which comes come to expect from the Senate Legal and through our external affairs power. As Constitutional References Committee, with Commonwealth legislators I believe we have Senator McKiernan as its head. He is, like not just a right but an impulsion to correct yourself, Mr Acting Deputy President Light- this matter. Just leaving the laws on the stat- foot, a Western Australian. I take this op- ute books and hoping something will turn up portunity of noting the outstanding work that is not going to rectify it. Senator McKiernan has done in this area, The Western Australian government could because I am not sure how many more op- have taken the opportunity to say, ‘Yes, the portunities there will be to note the out- laws have failed; they have not done the standing work that he has done not only in wider community any good and they have this area but in parliament generally over the certainly—according to our own statistics— 17 years that he has adorned this place. This done young indigenous Western Australians is an opportunity for me to acknowledge the a lot of harm, so we will fix them. We will contribution he has made to this parliament, move on to better diversionary programs and to his party, to his state and to the country make sure those programs are in the home- and, may I say, to the world. lands of the people most affected.’ If the Senator Carr—The world! Western Australian government had done that, there would have been a good result. Senator COONEY—Yes, he has; he is on But I disagree with the committee that some- the Inter-Parliamentary Union, Senator Carr, body else had better fix this. The legislation and he has done very extensive work at an was brought in recognising that the former international level. That ought to be ac- administration in the Northern Territory knowledged. Whilst talking about this, I note could regain office, and the present admini- the way he has worked with his wife, Jackie. stration in Western Australia is not of a mind They have made a splendid team and have to change the legislation. I believe this par- served this country most honourably. liament should be. However, the report is full There are problems with mandatory sen- of compulsive reading before you get to the tencing, and perhaps the major one is that it conclusions, and I would recommend it to all does not look at what should be looked at senators as well as to all citizens. when crime is being assessed. There are The matter has not finished here. In my three questions that should be asked when a term in this Senate, I will continue to move crime is before the court. The first is: what as best I can to rectify what is a manifest has been done? If it is a theft, is it a theft of a wrong: these mandatory sentencing laws in used envelope—which is a charge I know Western Australia as they now exist. I thank was brought against somebody who a par- the committee. I am sorry that I was not able ticular organisation wanted to embarrass—or to attend some of the hearings, and I am is it somebody charged with stealing millions grateful to Ben Oquist from my office for of dollars? Is it somebody who is charged being there and reporting fully to me on with illegally using a car that belongs to those hearings. I thank the committee and I someone who it is not going to affect terribly thank the staff of the committee, who pro- much or is it somebody who steals from a vided excellent services. I think this docu- widow who is left bereft by the deed? 544 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

You should ask about the nature of the the legislation we passed in September, this crime, and then you should ask who is doing is absolutely necessary. In other words, there it. Is this someone who has an education, is mandatory sentencing for people who may, who has the ability to make his or her way in as a lark, bring very decent people, you the world and who has had every chance but might otherwise have thought, to Australia has, nevertheless, committed a very nasty across the straits and land them in Australia crime, or is it somebody who has had disad- without permission. Bang! There is no dis- vantages from his or her youth and who is cretion for the judge to look at it and see now in a terrible situation because he or she whether it was a lark, high spirits or a matter has perhaps been compelled to steal to get of carelessness or not. We have to go off to food? These are the questions that should be jail for five years and a minimum of three— asked. If you have mandatory sentencing, just a nonsense. I must confess that we these are questions that you cannot ask. rushed that proposition through in a great The other thing I do not like about man- hurry last September. datory sentencing is that it looks at people as There are some real problems in this being of the same kind. The distinction that whole area, but this is an excellent report. should be made is not made in terms of both This will lead, I hope, to the rethinking of the crime and the person committing it. this demand for grinding everybody down Mandatory sentencing also denies the con- with mandatory sentencing no matter what. I cept of redemption. I am a person who, finish as I started, by acknowledging you, rightly or wrongly, believes that there should Senator McKiernan, and Jackie as well. be a chance for people to recover the ground Senator GREIG (Western Australia) that they have lost through their own crimi- (4.45 p.m.)—I too would like to speak to the nal activity. Is it wrong to believe that there motion moved by Senator McKiernan on the is such a thing as redemption and such a tabling of the Senate Legal and Constitu- thing as a good side to people as well as a tional References Committee report on the bad side? It is these sorts of things that man- Human Rights (Mandatory Sentencing for datory sentencing does not take into account. Property Offences) Bill 2000. As previous This is pointed out by this report which the speakers have said, this was a good commit- committee, so ably led by Senator McKier- tee and an interesting report. It is a privilege nan, has brought forward. to serve on the Senate Legal and Constitu- I cannot sit down without mentioning how tional References Committee because it deals this parliament itself, in September of last with some of the more interesting, if not year, introduced mandatory sentencing for controversial, topics which come before us people-smuggling. People-smuggling was or which we bring before the committee. I defined as bringing to Australia five or six always find it intellectually challenging people who did not have permission to come. when in these hearings to hear both sides of You did not have to be paid for it, so it cov- the argument. The report is as outlined by ers more people than does the general con- Senator McKiernan. On behalf of the Aus- cept of people-smuggling. We have come to tralian Democrats, I was pleased to consent think of people-smuggling as meaning to that report and, to a degree, to the majority smugglers who bring asylum seekers to finding. There is only one aspect of that with Australia for money and leech off the system which I disagree, and I have outlined that in but, as it is defined in the act, it means any- my additional comments—not in a dissenting body who brings people to Australia without fashion but more as an additional comment. authority, whether they are paid or not. That is the question of whether the federal If you and I happen to be in Bali, meet parliament should override the Western some people of excellent character from Australian legislation or whether it should be England or America, bring a load of them— left to the state government of Western Aus- six of them—over here, and are caught as tralia. I have argued in my additional com- they land, we get five years jail with a non- ments that that may be well meaning but that parole period of three years. According to it is totally unrealistic. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 545

You may be aware, Mr Acting Deputy open to constitutional challenge. That is al- President Lightfoot, being a Western Austra- ways the last port of call, as it were, and I do lian yourself, that the mandatory sentencing not think we should ever second-guess what law—the three strikes law—in Western the High Court may or may not determine in Australia has popular support. That is recog- terms of a challenge. nised by both the existing state Labor gov- As a Western Australian I am very con- ernment and the coalition opposition. I recall scious of the very real on-the-ground impact clearly during the election campaign, which that the existence of these laws has and con- saw the election of the now Gallop govern- tinues to have in my home state. I note an ment, that both sides of the political fence for article in the West Australian of only 10 days the major parties were very keen on manda- ago, Friday, 1 March 2002, written by Julie tory sentencing and, whenever questioned on Butler, which said: that issue, made it very clear that they would A 17-YEAR-OLD who at the age of 12 was maintain it if in government. That is clearly among the first and youngest offenders jailed the case, and I can see no change philosophi- under WA’s three-strikes home burglary law is cally, politically or in policy terms from ei- back behind bars. ther camp of the major players in my home The youth, who has racked up 94 charges since state. the age of 10—mainly burglary and stealing— We should not forget that the three strikes wept yesterday when Children’s Court president law evolved from legislation that was first Kate O’Brien sentenced him to 18 months deten- introduced by then Premier Carmen Law- tion. Outside the court, his lawyer John Hawkins rence on behalf of the Labor government in said the youth’s record showed mandatory sen- the early 1990s. So I cannot agree to the tencing did not work and was not a deterrent. proposition that the chair has outlined in the Under the three-strikes law, judges must sentence majority report, that we should wait and see offenders to at least 12 months in jail once they what the Western Australian government is are convicted of three home burglaries. going to do, because I think we can very rea- Last month, Judge O’Brien said the law had sonably say that it is going to do nothing. forced her to detain some juveniles she otherwise Therefore, I have no qualms in being sup- would not have. She said judges should have the discretion in all cases so justice could be done in portive of the notion that the bill should pro- all cases. ceed forthwith. The article goes on to explain that the of- In terms of what that may mean in a con- fences concerned were quite serious. It stitutional sense, it was argued by some peo- seems that the teenager was on an intensive ple who came before the committee and who supervision order for other offences, includ- wrote to it that there may be constitutional ing stealing jewellery worth $5,000, when he difficulties for the federal parliament in committed the new offences last October, passing this legislation and stepping over the including causing some $600,000 worth of Western Australian legislation. I put that damage caused by fire to a Tom Price hard- question to one of the people who came be- ware store. But, more importantly, I think we fore the committee in Perth, Mr Mark Cu- should acknowledge that we are dealing with omo, then representing the Aboriginal Legal a kid who, from the age of 10, has been in Service. I asked him, a barrister, what his serious trouble, and mandatory sentencing constitutional views were on whether or not does not and cannot help him. We are deal- this legislation would be valid if it were to be ing with far more serious systemic and passed. He was cautious in his response. I do structural problems in relation to children, not mean to misquote him, but he said words particularly indigenous children. I join with to the effect of, ‘Well, we can’t be entirely the majority call, as it were, in the report for certain, but I think it is worth a go because the continued condemnation of these laws, the legislation is so abhorrent.’ I would and advocate the repeal of them. I think the agree. Ultimately, I think every amendment, Commonwealth ought to step in and do so every bill, every piece of legislation that this quickly. chamber and the other house deals with is 546 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

In closing, I would like to express my Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (4.56 thanks to the chair of the references com- p.m.)—Last night we were debating the re- mittee, Senator McKiernan, and also to the gional forest agreement legislation which is tremendous staff who work for the Senate before the chamber for the third or fourth Legal and Constitutional References Com- time. It now appears it has the support of the mittee, particularly Dr Pauline Moore who, Labor Party and the coalition and it will be as it happens, is finishing up in her role as passed, much to the favour of the woodchip- the head of the secretariat which oversees ping industry in Australia. The matter that this committee. She will be leaving Canberra came to the fore was whether the agreements for Sydney to take up a new job with the are binding on the people who have signed Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Com- up to them—namely, the Prime Minister and mission. I wish her all the best in that new the government on the one hand and the state career. governments on the other. Debate (on motion by Senator McGa- During the course of his response to uran) adjourned. Senator Murphy about whether the agree- BUDGET ments were binding, the minister said that yes, they are. I had put it to the committee Consideration by Legislation Committees that these agreements are binding when it Additional Information comes to financial advantage for the wood- Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (4.52 chip corporations. The Commonwealth in the p.m.)—On behalf of the Chair of the Foreign future would have to intervene to protect Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Com- Australia’s wild forests and their wildlife, mittee, Senator Sandy Macdonald, I present because most Australians want that to hap- additional information received by the com- pen. The companies could then say, ‘That mittee relating to hearings on the budget esti- forest as a pile of woodchips would have mates for 2001-02. been worth $10 million to us,’ and the Com- COMMITTEES monwealth would be bound to pay out com- pensation from taxpayers’ money, even Membership though the companies had done nothing to The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT earn it. (Senator Lightfoot)—The President has I will very shortly be moving amendments received a letter from an Independent senator which are going to test the Labor Party, be- seeking variations to the membership of cause the amendments say, ‘If you’re going committees. to have this compensation clause which Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- binds the Commonwealth in paying out to sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- the woodchip corporations, let’s have a tion) (4.53 p.m.)—by leave—I move: clause which binds the woodchip corpora- That Senator Murphy be appointed a partici- tions to compensate workers who are sacked pating member to all legislation and references or to reskill workers who are sacked by those committees. very same companies.’ We will get to that in Question agreed to. a while. REGIONAL FOREST AGREEMENTS Senator O’Brien—We will shortly. BILL 2002 Senator BROWN—The Labor Party says In Committee we sure will— Consideration resumed from 11 March. Senator O’Brien—I said ‘shortly’. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN Senator BROWN—We will see how (Senator Lightfoot)—The committee is much they defend the workers’ interests considering amendment No. 4 on sheet 2432 when it gets to that. I think we will find that revised, moved by Senator Brown. (Quorum it is only the Greens doing that, because I formed) note that the Democrats are not represented in the chamber again. They were not repre- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 547 sented last night. This is a very important logging, and publication of reports and re- piece of legislation as far as the forest estate views but not whether they take place when is concerned; in fact, there has never been a required. The West Australian RFA also in- more critical piece of legislation in terms of cludes a legally enforceable part, which the the future of forests in Australia because this minister referred to—this does not include gives a lay-down misere to the woodchip ecologically sustainable forest management. industries in the undefended and unprotected It does include implementation of a CAR forests of Australia. Yet the Democrats are reserve and certification and competition totally absent from this debate. Let that be reviews. So the minister misled—I have no noted. doubt that it was inadvertent; he is new to the The minister indicated that not only was portfolio and will not yet be right across it— the Commonwealth bound to pay out to the the committee by saying that there were corporations from taxpayers’ money if any binding clauses in the RFAs, which bound forests are protected but the other side of the the states to implement the reserves and then coin, the environmental side—that is, the to engage in ecologically sustainable forest establishment of comprehensive and ade- management. That is not so. I want to make quate reserves and the protection of forests sure that the committee knows that, because where that is required under regional forest what the Green amendment is doing here is agreements of state governments, who are making the environmental aspects of the re- then charged with that responsibility—is also gional forest agreements binding on state binding. Last night, the minister said to governments as well as on the Common- Senator Murphy: wealth. Let me put this in short again: if it is good enough for this legislation to bind the You inquired as to the legally binding nature of the agreements that have been entered into. I sup- Commonwealth to pay out taxpayers’ money pose all I need do is to refer you to part 3 of the to woodchip corporations when forests are agreements. I am assured that they all contain protected, is it surely not good enough to these same provisions, but the one I have in front bind the state governments to protect those of me is the one for the south-west forest region forests which are to be in reserves and to of Western Australia. In this agreement it is engage in ecologically sustainable manage- clause 94 in part 3. It may be a different clause in ment in the forests? the other agreements, but I am advised that they are all there. They do say that it is the intention of Madam Temporary Chairman, you would the parties that this part creates legally enforce- know that ecologically sustainable manage- able rights and obligations. That part then deals ment is a nonsense because what it refers to with the comprehensive, adequate and represen- is so-called harvesting—a euphemism for tative reserve systems and ecological total destruction of forest by corporations sustainability. So the amendment— like Gunns, the biggest woodchippers in the that is, the Green amendment, which would Southern Hemisphere—under the direction make these agreements binding— of a malfunctioning and derelict Forestry is really not necessary and this is provided for as Tasmania. As Senator Murphy said yester- things stand. day, one of these days Forestry Tasmania ought to be and will be subject to a thorough That is on page 337 of Hansard. The fact is inquiry to ascertain why it does not meet its the East Gippsland Regional Forest Agree- statutory obligations, why it does not return ment contains no binding obligations at all, an overall profit when you take into account including not one for compensation. The subsidies from the Tasmanian people and Tasmanian Regional Forest Agreement in- why it fails in sustainable management. The cludes a legally enforceable part 3, clause 92, definition of sustainable management being which includes neither implementation of the used by the Liberal and Labor parties is one CAR reserves—comprehensive and adequate where the woodchippers move in under the reserves—nor ecologically sustainable forest direction of the state forestry authorities, management—the minister was wrong there chain saw these ancient forests and fire bomb again. It covers ISO 14,000 certification, them, killing all wildlife, all bird life and all which is a form of certifying the quality of reptiles. As I said last night, all you see rem- 548 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 nant in these totally destroyed and fire Senator BROWN—Temporary Chair- bombed forests is the occasional white snail man, I was on my feet. shell which has been burnt in the holocaust The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I but the calcium has survived the intense heat. am sorry, Senator, I thought you had sat Nothing else does. down. You may continue. The aim in Tasmania is to destroy totally Senator BROWN—I do not have to point the rainforest component so that it will not out to you, Temporary Chairman, that what compete when, after the fire, Forestry Tas- just happened was that no other member of mania—not the woodchip corporations be- the Senate rose to insist that the minister cause they have this done at taxpayers’ ex- rectify a very dangerous process of misin- pense—moves in and reseeds the area with forming the Senate last night. This is the attenuated, fast growing and very often for- Minister for Forestry and Conservation, eign eucalypts to that area. The process after Senator Macdonald. The senator should have that in this ecologically sustainable manage- got to his feet and responded, because I am ment, which the minister talks about quite making a very serious charge here. If we do erroneously, is the placement of 1080 poison not have correct information in a committee to kill any marsupials coming from adjacent hearing like this, we cannot have the public forests onto the destroyed part of the forest faith that we are going to come to the right to graze on the new seedlings. So it is an conclusion. When a minister for the Crown environmental holocaust, it is a total de- misleads a committee on an important matter struction of the ecosystems and the forests like this—that the government is bound to do are never meant to grow again. By design, something when in fact it is not—then that is they will be cut down before they get to the a mistake that should be notified to the Sen- size where they become habitat for larger ate and it should not be left to a Green sena- marsupials, birds and bats. The euphemism tor to challenge him on that. Then when he of ‘harvesting’ goes on to the worst use of does not rise to defend himself or to alter the public relations design in this term ‘ecologi- record, the Labor Party should at least get up cally sustainable management’, which means and ask him to do so. But of course we are in total blitzing of the forest at the profit of the this situation where they are arm in arm with woodchip corporations, who in turn donate the Howard government on this process of to the Labor Party and the Liberal Party. legally enforcing the destruction of Austra- I would like the minister to confirm what I lia’s wild forests and wildlife. I do not have have been saying about the definition of le- the Democrats’ backing in the Senate to do gal and binding components of the regional anything other than challenge the minister forest agreements, because a committee can- again. When I sit down this time the vote not function if it is being misinformed by the will be taken and there will be no further minister in the chair. In an important matter debate on this particular clause. like this, an amendment was brought forward It appears that the minister is not going to and a person other than the mover of the contribute to this debate in any meaningful amendment—in this case, Senator Murphy— way, but last night he referred to the Western asked whether the other components and Australian Regional Forest Agreement and I compensation to the corporations were ask him what the status of that is. We know binding. He was told that, yes, that was the that there were massive protests about it in case, and we have found that it was not the Western Australia and that it was the Labor case. It is very important that the minister Party’s response to that public opposition to rectify that mistake. I give him the opportu- the destruction of forests in Western Austra- nity to do so now. lia that led to their election and indeed to five The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN Greens being elected to the upper house in (Senator Crowley)—The question is that the Western Australia at the start of last year. amendment moved by Senator Brown be When the Western Australian Gallop gov- agreed to. ernment came in, it did say that it was going Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 549 to defend the forests. I would like to know The opposition is cavalier about it. The from the minister if it is doing that. Democrats are not present at all. I take it ex- It has come to my ears that some logging tremely seriously, and so do most Austra- is again going to be allowed in the Sharpe lians. block, which was a very pivotal block in that I have been to blockades, peacefully run debate in Western Australia. Has the Gallop by young Australians, in all the states that government reneged on its commitment to are involved. I have seen all the opinion polls the people that won it the election? If not, since the 1980s which show a great majority what is the situation? As far as the regional of Australians want these wild forests pro- forest agreement, which was effectively tor- tected. We know that there is no need to be pedoed by the strength of feeling of West cutting them down because we have a two Australians against it, is concerned, does it million hectare plantation establishment to still exist and, if not, when and how was it meet all of Australia’s wood needs, for paper, withdrawn? If this bill passes, will that re- for house building and for all other purposes. gional forest agreement in Western Australia Yet we have this unseemly business, be binding on that state? The minister has whereby in the chamber right now the min- said that these agreements are binding. Is the ister is ignoring the debate. There is no sup- agreement binding on Western Australia, port to insist that he rectify the record when because it seems that there is nothing much it has been manifestly pointed out by me that there to be bound? What are the processes he misled the Senate on the matter last night. that have been or will be used to amend the I am a lone senator for the Greens. It points RFA to take into account that dramatic out how much I look forward to the New change that occurred when the Gallop gov- South Wales Greens senator elect, Kerry ernment was elected and the Court govern- Nettle, coming into this place, so that on oc- ment was rejected because of the regional casions like this I can make the appropriate forest agreement and other issues in Western move, which would be to suspend this sitting Australia? and to report progress until the Senate gets a I ask the minister whether he supports the proper answer from the minister, who is ALP policy of ending old-growth logging in treating this debate in such a cavalier fash- Western Australia and, if he does not, what ion. action is he taking to defend the regional There have been few occasions in my ca- forest agreement that was signed between reer as a parliamentarian when an important, Prime Minister Howard and then Premier far-reaching amendment, like the one I have Court in Western Australia? These are im- put before the committee, can be dismissed portant questions that ought to be answered with such disdain by both the government in a debate and, while the minister is having and the Labor opposition—and dismissed by the opportunity to acquaint himself with the a minister misleading the Senate. There is detail that he will need to give the Senate, I nothing further I can do about that. I know note that there are now just six senators in the government is determined to shove this the chamber, Temporary Chairman Crowley, legislation through without the debate that it and I draw your attention to the state of the deserves. I said to the leader of the House House, because 19 senators are needed to earlier today that if the minister answers the form a quorum. (Quorum formed) questions then the debate will move on. The minister has misled the Senate and There have been claims that this is a filibus- failed under challenge to account for that on ter from me. It is not true. It is not a filibus- a pivotal clause, a pivotal amendment, in this ter; it is a heartfelt effort to get answers from legislation. There are measures to deal with the government to justify this draconian leg- that but the correct form would be for the islation which institutes the destruction of minister, who is not even listening to the de- Australia’s forests for the next 20 years and bate at this time and is not even in his seat, to removes the minister’s powers, the govern- respond in a way which clears the air. The ment’s powers, the federal parliament’s pow- government is cavalier about this legislation. ers—time honoured powers—to protect ar- 550 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 eas. Last night the minister, quite wrongly, is increasing—the hospitality industry, the implied that I had been wrong in saying that tourism industry. This industry attracts peo- the Weld, the Picton and the Huon valleys, ple to Tasmania because it has the cleanest which will be subject to logging in the wake air in the world; it has some of the purest of this legislation, were not of World Heri- waters anywhere in the world; it has some of tage value. the most intact wildlife systems in the world; Senator O’Brien—They have been for it has the tallest hardwood forests, the tallest 150 years. flowering plants on earth—and that latter entity is now subject to destruction because Senator BROWN—Senator O’Brien, for of this legislation. the Labor Party in Tasmania, says that they have been for 150 years. I would ask him to That is why I stand here opposing it to- go to the Weld Valley and point out the areas day—alone in this chamber at the moment, of the Weld that were being logged 150 years totally alone in this chamber, which is back ago. He is quite wrong, and by interjection to six members only taking part in this de- he reveals the lack of information he has bate. I object to that and I draw attention to about the history of this industry. The Weld the state of the House. (Quorum formed) Valley has been a pristine valley until the While the senators en masse leave the cham- invasion of the woodchip industry in recent ber again, so they will not take part in this decades. In the last week, we have seen a debate, I will nevertheless continue. dozen or so young people peacefully pro- I have just been acquainted with the news testing about a new bridge to be built across that in Goolengook in Victoria there has been the Weld River at taxpayers’ expense to in- another arrest today of a protester. I want to crease the area of the lower valley that is to record, for those Victorians concerned about be destroyed by woodchip operations. In- Goolengook, my heartfelt concern for what stead of supporting this future Australian is happening there. You will know from lis- outlook which says, ‘Let’s keep our natural tening to me before that this was an area of heritage and our wildlife,’ the Labor Party heritage reserve under the regional forest says, ‘No, we hand across to the job shed- agreements and it was protected by state law. ding woodchip industry the short-term prof- But the Kennett government reversed that its that will be exported out of Tasmania.’ law after they had arrested a number of peo- Ninety per cent of those forests will go to the ple, including me, in 1998. The agreement woodchippers, to the paper mills of Japan had been signed with Prime Minister How- and China and not to the downstream proc- ard that this area would be protected. But, essing which has been the so-called direction without any statement or investigation or any in which the regional forest agreements concern at all, the Victorian government would take us. unilaterally removed half of the reserve—a The minister said that these areas are not thousand hectares—of prime heritage river of World Heritage value. Again, he is wrong. forest including rainforest and a huge range The World Heritage advisers—the chief ad- of wildlife and wildlife habitat including that visers, the experts in Geneva, the World of the endangered quoll. But the federal gov- Conservation Union—have called for these ernment did nothing. The minister said last areas to be included in the World Heritage night that the federal requirements for sus- area designated in Tasmania and nominated tainable logging and adequate reserves are for World Heritage value because they are of binding but there we have a clear case where World Heritage significance. But the reason it was not binding and nothing was done by they are not—they are going to be logged the Commonwealth. instead—is that the regional forest agree- This legislation is there for the interests of ments give the woodchip corporations entry the corporations. It is not there for the work- into these wild forests against public feeling ers and it is certainly not there for the Aus- and against the interests of the industries in tralian people’s primary interest, which is to Tasmania, which would treat these forests keep these environments intact. Again, I much better, and in which the number of jobs should explain it so that it will be on the Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 551

Hansard record. We are down to six mem- ecologically sustainable management, which bers in the Senate again. The obvious direc- we are told is the cornerstone of the regional tion there by Labor and the Liberals is to forest agreement system; that would insist prevent this debate continuing, because I that comprehensive and adequate reserves cannot get to my feet again. There will be a are in fact protected into the future and not vote after this and then we will move on to logged—as we have seen on several occa- the next amendment. It is an appalling situa- sions in Tasmania and which, as I just tion, an undemocratic situation, where the pointed out, is happening today under the minister has not answered basic questions force of the many police being brought out to and has not even moved to correct his mis- defend the forest industry’s monetary interest leading of the chamber on his submission in Goolengook against the public’s environ- that this amendment is not required because mental interest; and that would insist on a these matters are binding, when in fact they monitoring system and a review system are not in the regional forest agreements. So which reported back to this parliament that be it. meant something. But instead of this the The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN government and the opposition, and in their (Senator Crowley)—The question is that the absence I must assume the Democrats—I amendment moved by Senator Brown be will not assume anything for them except agreed to. that they do not care much about this de- bate—are not going to make those matters Question negatived. binding which the woodchip corporations do Senator Brown—I ask that my vote for not want to be bound by and which state the ayes be recorded. governments who are into destroying these The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN— forests do not want to be bound by. Senator Brown, your positive vote will be My amendment would insert also a provi- recorded. sion to insist on the binding nature of an Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (5.29 RFA in these words: p.m.)—I move Australian Greens amend- Sections of an RFA expressed to be non- ment (5), sheet 2432, revised: binding— (5) Clause 5, page 5 (after line 4), at the end of and that is what happens in these RFAs; it the clause, add: actually says the environmental components (2) Provisions of an RFA expressed to be are non-binding, notwithstanding what the non-binding are binding in so far as minister said last night, it is there in black they relate to protection of threatened and white— species and communities, World Heri- are binding in so far as they relate to protection of tage, ecologically sustainable forest threatened species and communities, World management, CAR reserves, monitor- Heritage, ecologically sustainable forest man- ing and review. agement, CAR reserves, monitoring and review. The last amendment was to change the defi- Let me give you an example of why this nition so that we did make the regional forest should be so. There is in the Tarkine Wilder- agreement provisions to protect the environ- ness in north-western Tasmania the biggest ment, weak as they might be, binding on the temperate rainforest in our nation. It is equal state governments effectively—but that has in size to any of the great tropical rainforests been negatived. What I am doing with this in the Daintree or further north in Queen- amendment is to put into the bill the teeth sland. It has a large heart of wilderness. It is that would make binding the provisions, named after the Tarkine people who were weak as they are, in the regional forest living on the west coast of Tasmania between agreements that protect threatened and en- the Arthur and the Pieman rivers before they dangered species of plants and animals and were savagely dispossessed, brutally dispos- birds so that they would actually be pro- sessed, by the European invasion early in the tected; that would enforce the protection of 19th century. Inland from that were the world heritage values; that would insist on Tommeginne people. There were tracks 552 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 through these great rainforests further into have a prescription for wholesale destruction the interior of Tasmania. The indigenous of that rainforest, which has not been seen by people referred to the rainforest as the land the minister sitting there, Senator Ian Mac- of the dancing snakes. When you go into donald, who refuses to say anything at all. It those rainforests you know you are in a pri- has not been seen by the only other member mordial region of Australia, areas of which of the government parties that is here listen- there is very little left on earth. ing to this debate. I dare say maybe Senator We in Western communities are aghast at O’Brien from Tasmania has been out there; I the rate of loss of the Amazon and the de- do not know. He can contribute to the debate struction of Borneo rainforests and those of if he has. But the two Labor members have the Indonesian archipelago and the Cam- not been there either. I know that Senator eroons in Africa. As you know, there has Murphy, who is at a committee meeting at been worldwide alarm about that loss of rain- the moment and so is not here, has been and forests and the wildlife within them. It is one would be contributing to this debate about of those things that sears the heart of young- the appalling mismanagement in the Tarkine. sters in particular and is the reason for this Who else has been there? This Senate cham- generation’s lack of feeling that there is hope ber and no doubt the House of Representa- in the future, something that those of us who tives is not about going to see these forests are older have never had to experience in our and determining on the ground what the im- own time. It is a worldwide phenomenon. pact is going to be. It is about legislating We all feel appalled by what is happening in sight unseen to rip these forests down the Amazon, but what is not generally through the massive destruction power of known is that the rate, pro rata, of destruc- modern machinery to line the pockets of tion of rainforest in Tasmania is greater. The Gunns Pty Ltd and Britton Brothers, maybe rate of destruction of the great forests of with, as I said earlier, over 90 per cent of Tasmania, hectare by hectare, is proportion- these forests going to the woodchip mills and ately greater even than the destruction of then through them to the paper mills of Japan native woodlands in Queensland. This legis- and now China. lation is a legal instrument to enforce that ‘It is a good money spinner,’ said the destruction so that it cannot be interfered minister last night. Is it? We now get $10 at with. It effectively reverses national park most—it is down around $7 in many cases— protection and says these will be logging per tonne for these forests, which have been domains—and the Tarkine will be amongst growing for centuries in Tasmania. The them. woodchip corporations get about $100 a During the summer break I sat at the Cann tonne for putting them through a woodchip River near Burnie with the Pullinger family mill and onto a ship. They get about a ten- and a wide range of people from around fold increase. The Japanese and Chinese pa- Tasmania. There was a heartache in the air per mills put them through a mill and get about what is about to happen to the Tarkine over $1,000 a tonne—another tenfold in- Wilderness, as they with their young hearts crease. This is a hundredfold increase on thought about how to get tracks into this re- what we get as a royalty in Tasmania. When gion to show people the magnificent rainfor- you look at the statistics, you find that the est, the ferns and the clear pristine brooks woodchip companies are doing very well; running into the bigger rivers, the Arthur, the they are getting a huge return for their small Franklin and the Pieman, and the cliffs, the investment of putting in a woodchip mill geological formations and the caves—small here or there. But Forestry Tasmania, mis- as they might be, the most extensive magne- managed grossly under the Bacon Labor site cave systems on earth—and the fossil government, is effectively running at a loss. systems in there which turn up huge ancient If you take into account the subsidies, in- insects. That is without going to the Aborigi- cluding the $80 million in these regional for- nal heritage right along that coast and est agreements being put into the industry, through those forests. In this legislation we we are actually paying to have these great Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 553 forests, including the rainforest of the of ping-pong balls—that is literally ping- Tarkine, cut down and shipped out. pong balls—filled with an explosive, napalm At that meeting at Cann River, the discus- like material which then bursts into a fire- sion was about getting a track so that Aus- storm. This destroys everything that is left— tralians could get in there to see these great every green leaf that is left in those coupes forests; experience a few nights out in the and those valuable rainforest timbers—and forest; listen to the owls at night; watch the then along come the same companies and the storms coming through from the wild west same Forestry Tasmania who perpetrated this coast; hear the scamper of the doomed mar- crime against nature, this economic malfea- supials on the floor; and see the bats, which sance, this total rorting and mismanagement are also doomed, as they fly at sunset, in the of a valuable resource and say, ‘We want start of the night’s foraging. They are par- more rainforest, so we want to cut the pipe- ticularly worried about the pipeline track. line track.’ That is a track running alongside the pipeline The minister himself, if he had the gump- which takes the iron ore pellets from Savage tion to get up and speak after me, will say, River on the Pieman system to the south ‘What can I do about it? I do not have pow- through the rainforest on the eastern edge to ers.’ This legislation that he wants rushed Port Latta in the north. Britton Brothers, For- through here, which I am determined is go- estry Tasmania and Gunns are all in favour ing to be debated adequately, divests the of going down that corridor and logging this Commonwealth of powers to intervene. It pristine rainforest for 200 metres on either has had them in the past. The Common- side and for the full length of it, length to wealth, you will remember, protected the length. This is ostensibly to get rainforest Daintree against a ferocious Bjelke-Petersen timbers out for them to sell. If you go to the government in Queensland. It protected Burnie wharf, there is a pile of rainforest some of the south-west forests in Tasmania, woodchips there bigger than this Senate including the Lemonthyme Forest near Cra- chamber. A bulldozer working around on the dle Mountain in 1989, with the Greens then top looks like a toy car. That is rainforest holding the balance of power and a Labor already smashed down by these same entities government that wanted government so was and carted off to be sold as woodchips to prepared to go along with it. But Common- Japan. It is not for value added; it is value wealth intervention was necessary there, and lost to Tasmania. And that is what they will World Heritage nomination followed. Those primarily do with this corridor. powers to protect World Heritage value for- I was speaking to Stephanie Cahalan in ests and protect the extraordinarily diverse my office in Hobart. She has been down to and ancient forests, like those along the other rainforests in Tasmania which have pipeline track, which have never seen a been cut in the last few months, and she told chainsaw before, are going to be divested me about the prodigious waste of myrtle, from the Commonwealth under this legisla- celery-top, sassafras—these valuable timbers tion. (Time expired) which are left in their tonnes on the forest Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (5.44 floor by this wasteful and marauding wood- p.m.)—The opposition will not be supporting chip industry and which very likely are going this amendment. The provision that Senator to be firebombed in the coming week. For- Brown seeks to amend reads: estry Tasmania wanted to firebomb this area This Act binds the Crown in right of the Com- a month ago, but it was not dry enough. monwealth. There is a spell of warmer, drier weather in The provision which Senator Brown seeks to Tasmania at the moment, so it will be in to have the Senate include seeks to vary agree- firebomb those remnant rainforests. What ments between the Commonwealth and the happens there is that a helicopter appears states by virtue of a provision in the legisla- over the destroyed forest with these vast tion which would purport to have an effect amounts of still malleable, valuable timbers which, in our view, is unnecessary. The on the floor and drops hundreds or thousands RFAs, to be RFAs under this legislation, as I 554 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 said before, must be agreements that satisfy gion—I am not going to try and estimate certain conditions, including that they pro- how much—is in formal reserves, be it state vide for comprehensive, adequate and repre- park or World Heritage areas, and the over- sentative reserve systems; they provide for whelming majority of old-growth forest in ecologically sustainable management and those catchments lies in reserves. There are use of forested areas in the region or regions; reserves which are in formal reserves in ad- they have regard to assessments of environ- dition to those that I have just described mental values, including old-growth, wilder- which would form streamside reserves or ness, endangered species, national estate val- special forest category reserves that lie out- ues and World Heritage values; they have side of the formal reserves areas that will regard to indigenous heritage values; they also not be logged, in accordance with the have regard to economic values of forested regional forest agreements. Most of the areas areas and forest industries; they have regard that remain available for harvesting are not to social values, including community needs; old-growth forests but regrowth forests. and they have regard to the principles of Most of the areas in that catchment are re- ecologically sustainable management. It is growth forests. Senators may have heard the opposition’s view that it is not appropri- about some terrible vandalism that was prac- ate to amend the legislation to purport to al- tised upon a logging coupe in the area. I am, ter the terms of an agreement reached be- I think, reliably informed that that operation tween the Commonwealth and the state in was being carried out in a regrowth area, not this regard if it meets the tests that have been an old-growth area, but millions of dollars of laid down in determining just what is an damage was done to equipment in that area. agreement which is covered by this legisla- I know that Senator Brown and Ms Putt, tion. So we will not be supporting this who is the Greens representative in the Tas- amendment. manian parliament, have protested that envi- It is interesting that, so far in the debate of ronmentalists were not responsible for that this legislation, we have established that vandalism. I certainly hope it is true. It has when Senator Brown talked about protecting been suggested to me that there was a link on the Weld Valley in Tasmania he chose not to the Wilderness Society’s site in Tasmania to tell the Senate that, in fact, about 80 per cent an English web site which operates under the of it was already protected and will never be name Ozymandias. It is a 12-page site and it logged and that most of the old-growth forest says: that remains in the Weld Valley is in that 80 Cafe Underground presents: per cent of the area that is protected and will Ozymandias’ Sabotage Handbook never be logged. But Senator Brown chose not to say that. He suggested that there is And it starts: something pristine about a catchment the This guide is not really about ‘noble’ sabotage— remnant of which is available to be logged for example people clamping themselves to dig- substantially having already been subject to gers on road projects. It’s about taking action timber harvesting. He neglected to say that against the everyday destruction of the environ- ment ... Specifically, it’s about sabotaging ma- part of the area that is available to be logged chinery, and getting away with it. will be managed on the basis of special tim- ber management, with a very long-term har- It then has a number of suggestions as to vesting regime—that is, selective harvesting how best one might sabotage vehicles and over the long term for specialty timbers. We heavy machinery designed to be used in a have become accustomed to needing to put logging coupe. If it is true that this was con- all the facts on the record so that the public nected with the Wilderness Society’s web do hear what is the whole truth in relation to site in Tasmania, then someone ought to ex- any particular matter. plain to the Australian public why the Wil- derness Society would, by virtue of estab- He referred to the Weld Valley, the Picton lishing that link, encourage people to practise Valley and the Huon Valley. I have the map sabotage on forestry machinery in Tasmanian of that region. A huge amount of the re- forests. It seems to me that, if that is the case, Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 555 it makes it very difficult for people to argue Heritage area. Indeed, an amendment to the that there is not a case, on the face of it, that 2001 bill that now appears in this legisla- environmentalists—perhaps not mainstream tion—which follows an amendment the op- environmentalists but someone connected position had been proposing to the bill we with the environment movement—were re- were discussing last year—makes it very sponsible for that damage. I am interested in clear that World Heritage areas and Ramsar that debate and I am sure we will hear more wetlands are protected in terms of forestry about it over time. operations. So I am glad to say that the op- What we have also established in this de- position have had an influence in improving bate is that well over 60 per cent of old- the legislation. Obviously, that aspect of the growth forests in the state of Tasmania, in legislation we would support. We were pro- fact nationally, are protected under regional posing to move our own amendment but forest agreements. In fact, in Tasmania the have been advised that it would simply du- public forest area which will not be logged, plicate the provision already in the legisla- which is protected, contains 85 per cent of tion. the old-growth forest that is available in I think this debate allows us to talk about public forest areas. In other words, only 15 what this legislation will do and to talk in per cent of the state’s old-growth forest terms of fact. I am happy for the debate to available for logging is in public forests. We proceed on that basis. I do not think that we have also heard in this debate that tens of are being assisted by the suggestion that ar- thousands of hectares of private land is being eas such as the Weld Valley have never been included in a reserve system and much of logged before. I know that there have been that includes old-growth forest. Those tens of operations in the Weld Valley over a period thousands of hectares will also never be of time. They certainly would not have been, logged. So the facts contrast somewhat with 100-odd years ago, as extensive as they the rhetoric that Senator Brown puts on the would be now with modern access, but I do record today. not believe that it is true to say that there The other matter which is of concern is were no forestry operations ever in the Weld that Senator Brown claimed in the debate Valley, as Senator Brown suggests. We can yesterday that World Heritage forest had banter to and fro about who was right and been logged. Although challenged, he has who was wrong about that; the fact of the chosen not to substantiate his claim. So I matter is that the Weld Valley is substantially look forward to Senator Brown telling us in protected. It is protected under this bill and, the debate which old-growth forest in a we think appropriately so, an RFA would World Heritage area was the subject of log- allow harvesting in a very limited area of ging. I am not aware of it, but I am sure, if he that valley, mostly in areas that are regrowth has got some facts, he can acquaint us with forest that have been subject to forestry op- which particular forest he claims lies in a erations before. We think that that meets all World Heritage area and has been logged. I of the tests set down under this legislation. would like to hear that, I know the minister Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queen- would like to hear that and I am sure the sland—Minister for Forestry and Conserva- Australian people would like to hear that. tion) (5.56 p.m.)—The government will not When we know which particular forest is be supporting this amendment for a number alleged to have been logged, we can make of reasons, several of which have already our inquiries, and if there is something to be been mentioned by Senator O’Brien in addressed in that regard then the opposition, speaking for the opposition. Certainly, those and I hope the government, would wish to reasons are relevant from the government’s attend to what would be an improper prac- point of view as well, and I will not reiterate tice. That is not a practice which would be those in the hope that we can save some time supported in any way by this legislation. in this debate. Apart from that, the amend- This bill does not entitle any operator to ment is nonsensical as it relates to a technical conduct a forestry operation in a World reading of this bill. This bill, when it be- 556 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 comes an act, will bind the Crown and the information, Senator Brown, please give it to right of the Commonwealth; that is all it can us. But you do not have the information. You do, of course, as Commonwealth legislation. just say these things in the hope that some- I also share the view previously put by one might hear you and be enthused, by your Senator O’Brien that it is important to debate misrepresentation of the facts, to your view these issues of national importance such as on these issues. (Quorum formed) In the way regional forest agreements and the manage- of anarchists, Marxists—and I can even add ment of our forestry generally. But the basis fascists to that—what you do is to stop free of debate on this bill, as in any debate on any speech. You do not allow people to have a bill in this chamber, must be factual, not on a point of view. basis which is deliberately misleading with Senator Brown—Mr Temporary Chair- some senators—I should say only one—de- man, did you make a count of that quorum? liberately putting up false information and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN facts in a very emotive way to try to pursue a (Senator Lightfoot)—Yes. political objective that that particular senator has. It is the sort of thing that anarchists or Senator IAN MACDONALD—It is an Marxists of the old school would do to try to old trick of fascists, anarchists and Marxists inhibit and thwart the will of the parliament to make sure that the other voice is not of the people of Australia. That sort of action heard. (Quorum formed) You stop any op- is exemplified by the continual calling of portunity for others to raise their voices and quorums: when a senator is trying to speak a to have a view. You see that sort of attitude quorum will be called simply to interfere being exhibited in this debate. If one senator with the debate. does not like what you are saying, they will try to prevent you from saying it. That is Senator Brown—Madam Temporary what Hitler used to do; that is what Lenin Chairman, I raise a point of order. I object to used to do; and that is what fascists, anar- the minister’s comments. The minister has chists and Marxists all around the world used quite clearly allied me to anarchists and to do. Marxists. I have a Presbyterian background and I want that put on the record as well. Senator Brown—Mr Temporary Chair- man, I raise a point of order. I think even The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN you, Chair, should stop that sort of invective (Senator Crowley)—I am not at all sure against a member of this chamber. I act hon- under what piece of parliamentary procedure ourably in this place. I am concerned about that was. I think it is not a point of order, but this matter. I will not sit and allow that sort you have made your point. of accusation to be made against me in this Senator IAN MACDONALD—He also place. I ask you to have the minister with- identifies himself, I would suggest; I did not. draw. It is the type of activity and behaviour that Senator Herron—Mr Temporary Chair- we have from certain people in this chamber man, on the point of order: there was an im- who simply thwart the will of parliament and plied aspersion on the chair. Senator Brown thwart the will of the people. We must work said ‘even you’, and I would ask him to on facts. On a couple of occasions last night, withdraw that aspersion on the chair. Senator Brown said directly, and implied in other areas, that we were logging in World The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I Heritage listed forests. I have challenged him did not hear comments made by Senator to name those forests, because, if there is Macdonald being directed to any particular logging in World Heritage listed forests, I person in the chamber, Senator Brown. want to know straightaway—and I know the Therefore, I dismiss your point of order. environment minister wants to know Senator Brown—Mr Temporary Chair- straightaway too, because action will be man, I raise a point of order. I notify you that taken. To my understanding, there has been I will ask for a ruling from the President on no logging in World Heritage listed forests this matter, because I object. since they have been listed. If you have that Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 557

The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN—I because it does not suit Senator Brown to tell will draw it to the Deputy President’s atten- the truth. He knows there is no logging in tion. World Heritage listed forests, but he keeps Senator IAN MACDONALD—So that saying it in the hope that someone will listen there can be no misunderstanding, I say to it, someone will hear it and someone again that it was the fascists, the anarchists might come to his point of view on the envi- and the Marxists who did everything possi- ronment generally. He has also said that, ble to prevent a different opinion being held. through this legislation, the government and When someone would get up to give a dif- the parliament divest themselves of any ferent opinion and put facts on the table—not power in the forest debate. This is simply just misinformation, not just deliberate or untrue. This legislation is all about making unintentional wrongly produced statements; sure that the agreements that the Common- you get up to correct those—in totalitarian wealth and others have made are, in fact, regimes, those regimes would do everything given legislative sanction. possible to make sure that the truth was not Senator O’Brien has already pointed out, known and not heard, and to make sure that on several occasions, the misinformation the real facts were not heard. Senator Brown gives about the Weld Valley. I feel like that in this particular instance I join Senator O’Brien in despairing that the where I am attempting to tell those who are livelihoods of families, workers and small interested in this debate and those who might businessmen are being destroyed in the for- be listening on the radio what the real facts ests by criminals who are out there destroy- are. Every time I get onto the real facts of the ing machinery. I do not accuse Senator issue, and when I point out the inconsisten- Brown of being involved in that or of having cies and wrong factual information displayed any association with that, but I see him and spoken by Senator Brown, a quorum is speaking in the paper denying that it is him. called. For those who do not understand this One might think that his denials can be read place, you call a quorum when there are not a certain way. enough senators in the chamber. That hap- Senator Brown talks about a lot of the old- pens because most senators are doing sub- growth forests and a lot of very special trees stantial work in other parts of Parliament being logged, but he knows as well as we all House. They are seeing constituents, they are do that each RFA provides for the establish- seeing groups, they are working on commit- ment of a comprehensive, adequate and rep- tees and they are working on the very im- resentative reserve system based on nation- portant work that they have to do as senators. ally agreed criteria. The CAR reserve system Senator Ian Campbell—People pay is a precautionary approach to forest man- thousands of dollars to come here to see us agement, and it ensures that state and Com- from Western Australia. monwealth governments can be satisfied that they have adequately preserved forest eco- Senator IAN MACDONALD—Indeed, systems in their natural state, free from hu- Senator Campbell makes a very good point: man impact. there are groups that come from all over Australia to see senators, and those senators The nationally agreed criteria are 15 per are in their offices doing that work—but cent of pre-1750 distribution of each forest watching and listening to the debate on TV type, 60 per cent of existing old-growth for- so that they are well aware of what is hap- ests—100 per cent if rare or depleted—and pening and they will know how to make an 90 per cent or more of high-quality wilder- informed vote when they have to vote. ness forest. This level of protection is at the forefront of international standards. The In this debate, we have had Senator level of forest preservation in Australia Brown simply saying things that are not true, greatly exceeds—on all accounts—the levels such as: we are logging in World Heritage set out by the International Union for the listed forests. I have asked him to tell me Conservation of Nature, the IUCN, which which forests they are, but I have no answer, Senator Brown is always quoting. 558 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Our standards in Australia are higher than important are people and their livelihoods. the IUCN standards. They are higher than Jobs have been created for people so that the World Wide Fund for Nature require- they are able to sustain their families, there is ments of 10 per cent of existing distribution security for investment and there is certainty of forest. While the IUCN reserve criteria are for conservation reserves to ensure that our based on the existing distribution of forests, forests are conserved in a way that is ade- the CAR nationally agreed criteria are based quate, comprehensive and representative. on the distribution of forest pre-1750. Aus- Senator BROWN (Tasmania) (6.16 tralia’s forest reserve system is, as a result of p.m.)—When I hear that sort of contribution the RFA process, well in excess of IUCN and to the debate, which followed an equal one WWF standards. To hear Senator Brown from Senator O’Brien, I am proud to be here speak, you would never believe that, but as an Australian Green defending the long- these are the facts; this is the truth. These are term interests of the environment in this the sort of truths and facts that Senator great nation of ours and, on this occasion, Brown tries to prevent me from repeating in defending what is by far the popular view in this chamber by continually calling quorums this country that these forests should be pro- and trying to thwart the will of the people. tected. The minister may be going to what is My time in this session of the debate is labelled—in the greenwash way this gov- almost finished. Unfortunately, I have to ernment has—the ‘ecologically sustainable leave the debate at this time. My position management of the country’ committee, but I will be taken by Senator Alston, who has a think the citizenry of Australia is very long and very involved interest in the forest quickly realising that this government is very debate. I should explain to the Senate that I capable of misleading it in grand order. The have to leave to go to the very first cabinet citizenry of Australia, particularly young sustainable environment committee meeting, Australians, are not going to accept that a which is being held at this time—a first for government which is orchestrating the great- any government in Australia. The Howard est destruction of forests in history, sup- government has set up a special cabinet sus- ported by the Crean opposition, is into sus- tainable environment subcommittee. I have tainable management. to go to that because it is very important. It is Senator O’Brien said in his contribution very important that issues like those we are that the Wilderness Society was linked to a debating here are dealt with by the sustain- group that was putting forward sabotage lit- able environment committee. That is why I erature. That was tried last week in Tasmania will not be here for the next quarter of an by the logging industry—which seems to hour of this debate. But Senator Alston, who inform Senator O’Brien in his debate all the as I said has a very acute understanding of way down the line. In fact, I understand that these issues, will more than adequately fill in the Examiner newspaper, which takes a very for me and be able to assist the committee in strong pro-woodchip line in Launceston, was its deliberations. going to run that story last week. The Exam- The work that has been done—the jobs iner withdrew it when it was pointed out that that have been created by the RFA and the the link—which is a series of links from the sensible and sustainable management of the Wilderness Society, which the person I asked forests that has occurred as a result of the to try to emulate it could not—to this group management by the Howard government was no closer than the link from the Exam- and, I have to say, perhaps with some hesita- iner newspaper to this group. I have no doubt tion, the previous Commonwealth govern- that, if Senator O’Brien has a web site, the ment and even the state Labor government in link would be no closer than the link from Tasmania—is a credit to all concerned. The him to this group, from the Labor Party to forests are managed sustainably and well. this group and from the Liberal Party to this Jobs are created and certainty is created for group. people. Forests are very important—that is What a tawdry, mean and despicable con- why we have this legislation—but equally tribution from those who do not want to en- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 559 gage in the debate but who want to vilify the of the harvest, the staggering percentage con- Wilderness Society, with its 25 years of hon- signed to ‘waste’, i.e. woodchips (now over ourable contribution to this nation’s wellbe- 95%), the still rising percentage of the harvest ing, including the protection of the Daintree coming from native forest (nearly 90%), the forests and the Franklin River wilderness— plummeting employment in forestry since the RFA (down 47% by June 2001), and the net fi- which now creates an enormous number of nancial loss to the public owners of the forests. jobs in Tasmania—as well as ensuring the beauty of that wild place. What a despicable Your refusal— way to try to vilify those good people who he is addressing this to Senator O’Brien— work patch-in-pants for the defence of this to address any of the realities of Tasmanian log- nation’s environmental amenity. Senator ging, and your vocal opposition to any Senate or O’Brien should apologise for that but he will judicial inquiries into this industry, inevitably not because he is not up to it. I put on the give rise to the perception that you are seeking to record that that is the level that the debate obfuscate and mislead for motives that are ille- gets to on the forest industry. It comes from gitimate. the Wise Use Movement in America and it is The RFA bill coming up before Parliament— copycatted here—that is, when you are not here we are debating it tonight— doing well in the debate and you do not have will indemnify the logging industry against re- the public with you, vilify your opponents. trieval of any part of the nearly one-quarter of That is what is being done there. But I think Tasmania they have been handed by the RFA Senator O’Brien can live with that. (there are no restrictions on their acquisition and I will now acquaint the Senate with an- clearing of private land). The conduct of the in- dustry in Tasmania, and the manner of your de- other Tasmanian citizen’s entreaty to Senator fence of it leads inexorably to the conclusion that O’Brien who, on behalf of the Crean gov- this is a massive, politically sanctioned looting of ernment, is in here tonight defending this a public resource under the guise of “resource legislation to give the woodchip corporations security”. an open go on the unprotected forests of I am asking you for the first direct defence I will Tasmania, including the World Heritage have ever seen to the sort of realities described value forests, the Picton and the Huon val- below. Please do not follow the usual pattern of leys. John Haywood, of Weegena in Tasma- attaching your name to the evasive spin supplied nia, wrote to Senator O’Brien, who is a by Forestry Tasmania. Since I realise that you do senator from Tasmania, earlier this month, not have time to respond in detail to all the corre- saying: spondence you receive, I undertake to forward your reply to the co-addressees, who collectively Dear Shadow Minister have the capacity to carry your message (or lack Below is a description of Tasmanian forestry in of it) to the entire country and beyond. There can the fifth year after the signing of the Tasmanian be few more opportune times to define the Labor RFA in 1997. I have sent you and a number of Party as a real alternative to the Liberals in terms front-bench Labor colleagues earlier versions of of integrity. this information, all but invariably without any Mr Haywood goes on to say: response of acknowledgment. Since the signing of the Regional Forest Agree- The failure of you and other logging industry ment in 1997, Tasmania has undergone the most supporters to respond is understandable. The situation described here is indefensible on both intensive logging in the developed world. economic and environmental grounds. The facts In 1999-2000 logging alone accounted for 35,100 cited are not easily disputable, as they are drawn hectares of forest in the state, a rate of native bush mainly from the forest industry statistics. The clearing which in percentage terms is twice that Tasmanian forestry PR representatives who are of the 425,000 hectares of bush cleared for all compelled to defend it invariably do so in a simi- purposes in Queensland, and also exceeds the lar manner to the one employed by the sole Labor clearing rate of Brazil. In 2000-01 that figure Party respondent, Mr Crean, which is to ignore increased yet again, this time by 20%, to over the manifestation and recite the platitudinous 42,000 hectares, with the amount logged on pub- objectives of the RFA. Invariably, they refuse to lic land increasing by 34%. Tasmania has no leg- address the cardinal characteristics of Tasmanian islation controlling such clearing. UN statistics logging: the grotesque and skyrocketing volume released in 2001 reveal that Australia has the sec- 560 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 ond worst level of land clearing in the Common- A stupendously wasteful 94% of all logs felled wealth, trailing only Zambia. were chipped in 1999-2000, with a 7.5% drop in In this letter to Senator O’Brien, the Labor sawmill volumes for 2000-01 suggesting the spokesperson for Opposition Leader Crean, woodchip or “waste” figure is now above 95%. When one considers that 50-60% or more of trees Mr Haywood, goes on to say: could be milled in any reasonable attempt to Records were set for volumes of logs removed maximise efficiency and that sawn timber is every quarter last year. worth from 5-20 times as much as chips, the That is in Tasmania. He continues: multibillion dollar scale of the waste begins to be appreciated. The woodchip price has fallen about In 1999-2000, with less than 0.9% of Australia’s 25% in value, to about $72 per tonne, since the land area, Tasmania contributed 5.5 million ton- RFA was signed; prime sawn timber can fetch nes, or over 80%, of Australia’s 7 million tonnes $1500 for the same weight. Numerous cases have of export woodchips (volume of logs milled that been observed of valuable rainforest hardwoods year declined more than 6%). such as myrtle, sassafras, musk and celery-top So woodchips up; sawlogging, which is pine being simply heaped and burned on the for- where the jobs are, down. He continues: est floor to make way for pulpwood plantations. This constituted 95% of Australia’s hardwood What a devastating indictment of this indus- (native forest) chips, but we still trail Queensland try Mr Haywood’s letter is. What a remark- in the production of the vastly more valuable able thing that Senator O’Brien, who stands hardwood sawn timber. here defending this indefensible industry, Queensland has got no export woodchips but will not answer a letter like this. How much is producing more sawlogs than Tasmania, it feeds into the view, widely held in Tasma- which is contributing the massive majority of nia, that the Labor and Liberal parties are woodchips being exported. Mr Haywood’s held captive by the big woodchip corpora- letter continues: tions and have lost contact with the public Gunns Ltd, the dominant woodchipper, boasted in sentiment, which is aghast at the rapidly in- its prospectus that Tasmania has overtaken the creasing destruction of Tasmania’s forest. entire Southern US to become the largest regional Mr Haywood goes on to make many more producer of hardwood chips in the world. The compelling points to Senator O’Brien. I will figure for 2000-01 could be extrapolated from the leave it there but I will return to this letter increase in area logged at about 6.6 million ton- nes, but the actual tonnages are no longer avail- when we resume this debate, because I think able. Due to its control of at least 85% of the ex- it must be on the record. The opportunity for port woodchip market, Gunns Ltd— Senator O’Brien and opposition leader Crean which is centred in Launceston but exports through Senator O’Brien to respond to this its profits to the mainland— extraordinarily informed letter must be af- forded. has exercised its right to suppress the figures from Australian Bureau of Statistics publications on Progress reported. business confidentiality grounds. Sitting suspended from 6.30 p.m. to Can you believe that! Mr Haywood contin- 7.30 p.m. ues: GOVERNOR-GENERAL’S SPEECH Forestry Tasmania’s 2000-01 annual report Debate resumed from 14 February, on showed a 34% increase in the area of public na- motion by Senator Gibson: tive forest cleared along with a virtually identical 34% decrease in the public dividend from For- That the following Address-in-Reply be agreed estry Tasmania’s operations—about $2 per tonne to: before any deductions for environmental, infra- To His Excellency the Governor–General structural and other collateral damage. MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY— In this letter to Senator O’Brien, who will no We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of doubt respond to the chamber, though he has Australia in Parliament assembled, desire to not had the wherewithal to respond to this express our loyalty to our Most Gracious very literate and informed Tasmanian suppli- Sovereign and to thank Your Excellency for cant, Mr Haywood goes on to say: the speech which you have been pleased to address to Parliament. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 561 upon which Senator Stott Despoja had I have to admit that, as a Labor Party per- moved by way of amendment: son for all my adult life in South Australia That the following words be added to the and as a former state secretary, the South address-in-reply: Australian election results are disturbing for “, but the Senate is of the opinion that: the Labor Party. In state and federal elections in South Australia, even including the recent (a) the Government must move towards a more humane and workable approach state election in February, the Labor Party to asylum seekers; and has not received a majority first preference vote since the 1987 double dissolution. Also, (b) Woomera detention centre should be closed”. it has not received a two-party preferred majority vote in South Australia since that Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) election. I point out to Senator Kemp that the (7.30 p.m.)—I continue my remarks from 14 last time we got the majority vote was in the February 2002 when I commented on how last election campaign that I ran in South inappropriate and archaic the process of the Australia as state secretary—nearly 15 years Governor-General’s speech in the Senate is since we got a majority vote, and by the time for the government to outline its legislative of the next federal election in 2004 it will be program for the next three years. I believe it 17 years. I hope that at the next election we would be much more appropriate for the will be able to achieve a majority first pref- Prime Minister of a newly elected govern- erence vote and a majority two-party pre- ment to address a joint sitting of the House ferred vote. The reason we hold only three of Representatives and the Senate, either in out of the 12 federal seats in South Australia the House, here in the Senate or even in the is that our primary vote is too low and our Great Hall of Parliament House, than to fol- two-party preferred vote is too low. The seats low the tradition we have derived from 12th which we should hold and which we held for century Britain. much of the last century—federal seats like I now want to talk about the last federal Adelaide, Makin and Hindmarsh—we are election result. If I have time, I may make not able to win when we have a vote that some passing remarks about the recent South low. There are a number of broad issues on Australian election result. Obviously, we which people will speculate about why the were all very disappointed on the Labor side Labor vote in South Australia, at federal and that we did not win the last election. I admit state level, is still so low. my own personal disappointment on not be- I have no doubt that the psychological im- ing elected as part of the Labor Party team pact on the South Australian community in from South Australia for the Senate, but my the early 1990s of the collapse of the State disappointment is much greater that the La- Bank was detrimental to the Labor Party bor Party itself was not elected to govern- vote. It is now over a decade and five or six ment and that we have to put up with another premiers since the State Bank collapsed. three years of conservative Howard govern- Since then we have had John Bannon, Lynn ment rule. If the Governor-General’s Arnold, Dean Brown, John Olsen, John speech—which, in fact, is the government’s Kerin—sorry, Rob Kerin; the Liberals kept speech—is any indication, this government printing his name wrongly in the election has no vision at all for the next three years. It campaign and I keep calling him ‘John is catch-as catch-can, with a few issues to Kerin’ because that is what they called him create division in the community. In the in one of their ads—and now Mike Rann. overall election result, the Labor Party can- The impact of that on the Labor Party in not ignore the fact that our first preference South Australia has certainly been greater vote dropped nationally to approximately 37 than that experienced by Labor governments per cent—it went down two per cent. In my in other states in the early 1990s that got into state of South Australia, our first preference controversial economic issues—whether it vote dropped again down to about 33.6 per was Victoria or Western Australia. cent and the two-party preferred was around 46 per cent of the vote. 562 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Also, in recent years, the Labor Party has are not attracting those in South Australia not been as strong as it should have been in and that is one reason that our vote is so low. going out to the community and seeking new After an election everyone has got a the- support as far as party members are con- ory about why you lost and there are re- cerned. Only recently I was told that party criminations. Everybody on the winning side membership in South Australia is now down thinks that they are a genius and that they to 2,900. That is a very low level of member- were the ones who won the election. I be- ship. I also point out that, since the last fed- lieve that parties often win elections despite eral election, across Australia, membership their campaigns and sometimes parties lose of the Labor Party is 30,000 to 40,000 or after very good campaigns. As a former maybe a little over 40,000. The Adelaide party secretary I came to that observation a Crows have more members than the Labor long time ago. During the last election cam- Party across Australia. Before the Liberal paign Kim Beazley and the Labor Party out- Party gets too enthusiastic about pointing out campaigned John Howard. We won the de- that—as I am—that is a low membership, I bate, we had better television ads and we had do not think the membership of the Liberal better presentation of our policies right Party is any better across Australia than throughout the campaign. Every day, with membership of the Labor Party. It is a major one or two exceptions, Kim Beazley won the problem for all political parties which want election campaign. He won the election night to govern this country that their base mem- news, in my view. But there was a wider— bership is now so low, that people are not unfortunately, a nastier—issue rolling around joining and are not willing to make the in the community that meant that much of commitment as citizens to be active in their that was irrelevant. party. Unless we turn that around, the major parties will continue to lose first preference After the comprehensive defeat that John support and will continue to have problems Howard suffered in the debate at the begin- about how they reflect the views of the broad ning of the campaign, one would have Australian society. thought that there would have been a down- ward spiral for the Liberal Party, but there It is imperative that the Labor Party builds was not, because people were not interested a broad national membership of at least in the debate or its content; they were only 100,000 to 150,000 members across Austra- interested in the broader issues of the asylum lia—not because they have been stacked in seekers and international security and the for factional reasons but because they genu- associated leadership that supposedly came inely want to join and participate in the party. from that. With the wisdom of hindsight, I It is exactly the same in South Australia. One think the Labor Party should have released of the disturbing features of the federal elec- some of its policies earlier, particularly the tion result in South Australia and the recent very attractive policy of the GST roll-back state election result, and one reason we are measures to take the GST off electricity and getting a first preference vote in the mid- gas. If that policy had been announced ear- thirties, is that our vote in non-metropolitan lier, before the election campaign had time to South Australia—in rural areas—has de- sink in to the electorate, we would have had clined so badly. At the last state election in more support. some seats the Labor Party’s first preference vote barely got to 10 per cent.. Twenty-five One of the things that the election cam- years ago we used to hold one of those seats, paign comprehensively proved we should the seat of Chaffey. Our vote there is now take no notice of at the next federal election down to about 10 per cent. The Labor Party is the so-called Charter of Budget Honesty. in South Australia has a major challenge to This has become a mockery. At the last elec- build up its base vote in rural South Australia tion we saw the way in which the Treasurer, so that we offer a genuine alternative to peo- Mr Costello, tried to use the Charter Of ple in those areas who are dissatisfied with Budget Honesty to delay the provision of Liberal or National Party policies. But we figures on the outcome of the budget and the extraordinary step he took of announcing the Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 563 quarterly growth figures the day before the the blame for what they have done to the Charter Of Budget Honesty so that he could Australian Defence Force for their own po- gazump anything that Treasury might have to litical ends. say. Right to the very end it was clear that We have also had in recent days the awful he, as Treasurer, was going to take no notice spectacle of Mr Fahey, Mr Reith and Mr of the Charter Of Budget Honesty, of costing Wooldridge, having left their ministerial seriously and effectively the policies of the jobs, retiring, and then going and getting jobs Liberal Party. All he said to the Labor Party as lobbyists for the very firms they worked was, ‘You have to do yours but we are not with when they were ministers. Mr Reith is going to worry about ours.’ to go to Tennex. He knows all about the I say to Simon Crean and the Labor Party forthcoming contracts for Defence pur- that they should not worry about the Charter chases. One of the biggest suppliers will be Of Budget Honesty. It is a mockery. At the that great Australian company Tennex. It is a next election, we should announce our poli- conflict of interest for him to go and take that cies and what the costs are when we are job. Mr Wooldridge was exposed as having ready. We should not worry about what the taken $5 million out of asthma treatment Charter of Budget Honesty is going to be, programs for kids and giving it to one of the because it is being fixed, it is being abused medical lobby groups so that they could for political purposes by this Treasurer, and build a new headquarters, and he has been any future Liberal Treasurer. If the Labor appointed as their consultant. Again, that is a Party can be accused of anything, it is na- complete conflict of interest and contradic- ivete in saying that we would not release all tion. our policies until we knew what the Charter The Labor Party has quite rightly an- of Budget Honesty was. We then found that nounced that, when you have ministers who the Treasurer had gazumped his own Charter treat the Australian people and any sense of of Budget Honesty, his own legislation. The ethical propriety so badly, the law must be lesson is there for the Labor Party to say, ‘At changed. When ministers leave the parlia- the next election we are not going to worry ment there must be some time elapse before about that. We will put our own costings out, they can get jobs relating to their previous we will have them independently audited and portfolios. That should also apply to ministe- we will announce them to the public. We will rial staff. We should have the same legisla- not worry about what Mr Costello, or who- tion as they have in America, Great Britain ever the Treasurer is then, or Treasury say.’ and Canada. Since the Labor Party unfortu- The Charter Of Budget Honesty and the way nately lost the election, what we have seen is it has been used is a politicisation of Treas- the most unedifying spectacle of this Prime ury, just as this government, in a number of Minister and this government falling slowly areas, has politicised the use of the Public down into the gutter. (Time expired) Service. Senator HARRIS (Queensland) (7.45 We had the extraordinary unravelling in p.m.)—I rise in response to the Governor- recent weeks of how the Prime Minister and General’s opening speech. The Governor- the former defence minister politicised the General’s sense of optimism and opportunity Defence Force. Finally, in the most humili- for Australia began this 40th parliament on a ating sight ever seen in the defence forces, positive note. One Nation are pleased that the Chief of the Defence Force, who had the government has provided a continuing stuck loyally to Mr Howard right to the commitment to a belief in self-reliance and end—even making himself look like a goose individual endeavour. There are, however, in estimates committee hearings—had to call several areas that we believe need to be ad- a press conference and admit that he had got dressed as a nation in order for Australia to it wrong. That is a terrible politicisation of achieve a prosperous and secure future. our Defence Force and it should never hap- pen again. The Prime Minister and the for- One Nation provides unwavering support mer defence minister, Mr Reith, must take to our friends and allies, America, and to the efforts of the international community to 564 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 eliminate terrorism. In doing so, we must sation and foreign ownership of national as- ensure that freedom and civil liberties are not sets bring to our country. diminished. In this environment of height- The coalition has wiped out $55 billion of ened security awareness, One Nation will be public debt from 1996 to the present, but it acting to ensure that civil rights do not be- has been mainly achieved through the priva- come a casualty in the war on terror. Our tisation of public assets, including airlines fathers and forefathers fought to preserve and airports, to the detriment of future gen- Australia’s way of life, our freedom, our erations. More and more Australian workers common law and our traditions. If the gov- are concerned about their jobs and whether ernment changes laws in ways which restrict they are secure in the roller-coaster ride of traditional civil liberties, then terrorism and globalisation. While the government assures the terrorists have won. us that Australia is well placed in terms of One Nation is concerned about some of weathering international financial downturn, the counterterrorism proposals that have on the domestic front things are not rosy. been mooted so far, including the possibility In 2001 we witnessed the collapse of HIH, of allowing ASIO to detain terrorist suspects OneTel and Ansett, and a litany of well- for up to 48 hours without legal counsel. One known businesses were forced to shed la- Nation looks forward to an open and vigor- bour. Need I remind you that NTL, which ous debate on the proposed counterterrorism owns our own private national transmission legislation and welcomes the Prime Minis- network, is being sold due to financial diffi- ter’s summit for state and territory leaders. culties. One Nation will continue to oppose One Nation will closely scrutinise any new the sale of public assets and the proposal for counterterrorist legislation introduced into increased foreign ownership in this country. the parliament and will be consulting with Many are asking why the unemployment national civil liberties stakeholders—in- figures are not skyrocketing, but you only cluding academics, lawyers and civil rights have to look at the official definition of ‘em- representatives—so that we may ensure a ployment’ to get an idea of how the govern- positive response to any community con- ment might be fudging the figures. The offi- cerns. cial definition, which complies with the One Nation, being the originator of the specification of the International Labour Or- government’s strong policy towards asylum ganisation, is: seekers, continues to support the government Any person aged 15 years and over who worked on this issue and on the need to strengthen the reference week for one hour or more for pay border protection. The present border pro- is considered as being employed. tection legislation needs to be extended to With job losses comes increased poverty. A have the same effect on a person illegally report by the National Centre for Social and landing on Australia’s shores. Economic Modelling and the Smith Family Last week, Australia saw the final and released in November last year shows more bitter demise of the national carrier Ansett. Australians are living in poverty than at the Sixteen thousand people have lost their jobs. beginning of the 1990s. Allied to this devel- Deregulation has led to nothing more than a opment is the fact that over 15 per cent of chaotic and unstable industry. Last month, Australia’s personal consumption expendi- airline workers woke to the news that British ture is now made on Visa card alone. More Airways expects to shed more than 5,000 than 16 million credit cards are estimated to jobs and to cut services on some routes. I do have been issued in Australia, including nine not need to remind members that British million Visa cards, four million Mastercards, Airways purchased 25 per cent of Qantas two million Bankcards, a million American following the privatisation of our national Express cards and 350,000 Diners Club airline by the Labor government. There has cards. The payment volume on Visa cards already been speculation that British Air- has topped $50 billion, accounting for about ways may quit its $1.3 billion stake in Qan- 15 per cent of national private debt. tas. This is the sort of instability that privati- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 565

Primary producers, manufacturers and in- not achieved better dial-up speeds for rural dustry must be protected from the ravages of areas. This is of particular concern with re- international markets. The US initiative to gard to the number of government services protect its steel industry by imposing tariffs now offered online. One Nation will support should be emulated by the Australian gov- any government initiatives which genuinely ernment. President Bush is only doing what assist rural and regional Australia. At the we should be doing for Australian manufac- same time, we will be carefully monitoring turing industries and primary producers— the implications of industry deregulation and that is, defending local jobs and economic working with primary producers to ensure growth by imposing tariffs. that they are not denied the right to economic In almost every sector, from textiles and prosperity. clothing to steel and wheat, Australia has got With respect to choice and access in the rough end of the globalisation stick due healthcare an ever-increasing number of to competition from international markets small towns and regional communities have and cheap imports. It is impossible for a First no obstetrics, no anaesthetics services and no World nation to compete with Third World doctors at all. One Nation believes more can wages. Yet that is what the government and be done to address this issue and that we the opposition ask as advocates for the level must look to other potential problems on the playing field. Rural growth and prosperity horizon. Successive governments have will never be achieved by more deregulation eroded the financial basis of Medicare and and market liberalisation. Dairy deregulation the public health system as a whole. The cur- is milking rural economies and souring the rent scheduled fee for a standard 20-minute environment. Out of 1,500 dairy farmers in consultation, bulk-billed, with a general Queensland, 250 have lost their farms. The practitioner, is $21.50. In 1984 when the size of dairy herds is increasing and the ALP introduced Medicare the fee was $10. number of farms is shrinking. Clearly the rebate has not kept pace with With an era of robotic dairies impending inflation. No wonder general practitioners there may not be sufficient pasture for hun- are moving to corporate practice. dreds or even thousands of dairy cows Corporatisation is the process of a public crowded together in battery cow factories. I company buying up general practices, con- believe Australia will soon see the introduc- solidating them into larger, sometimes pur- tion of these feedlot dairies, with major envi- pose-built, 10- to 20-doctor practices often ronmental implications such as effluent dis- with allied and diagnostic services on site. posal and the increased use of antibiotics. The AMA says corporatisation represents the Meanwhile, traditional farms are shut down most significant change to the business and farmers are being forced to sell their last structure of general practice in its history. miserable possessions at auction. This is only Many doctors now see corporatised medical one example of the ill-considered plans practice as their only option. We have to turning Australian farmers into peasants in wonder whether this trend is just the tip of their own land. Our rural population contin- the iceberg for Australian health services. ues to decline and suffer service losses. ABS With respect to a thriving business sector, statistics show people are leaving our heart- when the Multilateral Agreement on Invest- land. In the 12 months to June 2000 more ment was abandoned in 1998, Pauline Han- than 270 local government areas across son warned that the treaty was ‘only Australia recorded a population decline wounded not dead’. Now the MAI has raised mostly in rural inland areas. its ugly head again as GATS, the General Compounding the many problems rural Agreement on Trade in Services. GATS is a areas face is the digital divide. Some rural poisoned chalice from the WTO. It means people cannot afford access to IT and, even that for the first time trade rules will reach if they could have access, they cannot get the into every aspect of our lives. Under GATS, necessary technical training enabling them to services take on a broad definition to include be efficient users. Networking the Nation has intangibles such as health, education, nurs- 566 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 ing, aged care, travel, water supply, tourism, Small business is the biggest business in construction, communications and transport. Australia. One Nation believes the govern- The agreement creates legally enforceable ment has neglected the plight of small busi- obligations backed up by trade sanctions. If ness by focusing on the banking and IT sec- Australia puts a service on its schedule of tors. While not compromising our present commitments, the service is then subject to economic development, we must bring a bal- market access rules. Once activated, these ance to policy making and add an additional rules will mean that a foreign corporation fiscal stimulation to the sector. We must also receives national treatment. One Nation be- relieve small business of the red tape night- lieves these rules will affect government mare imposed by the new tax system. ability to selectively support certain local One Nation shares the government’s con- companies. cern regarding the protection of our envi- GATS is also a fast track for privatisation. ronment. Today, I want to highlight one area The WTO says not to worry since services where urgent government action is required: supplied in the exercise of government biogenetic invasion. Biogenetic invasion authority are exempted in article 1. But in could be the new pollution plague. One Na- fact article 1 goes on to say that to qualify tion has already voiced concern over the for the exemption such services must not be safety of genetically engineered food, but supplied on a commercial basis nor in com- now we want to raise the alarm about poten- petition with one or more service suppliers. tial environmental damage caused by geneti- If a government agency charges of fee, is it cally engineered crops. Approved GE crop providing a service on a commercial basis? If trials in Australia today include apples, sug- a town has a private school as well as a pub- arcane, pineapples, wheat, grapes, barley, lic school, is there competition? Since none pawpaw, peas, lettuce, tomato, canola and of this is further defined in GATS, the ex- cotton. The last report from the government’s ception is so full of holes it is almost impos- Gene Technology Regulator indicates only sible to say with certainty what local, state or 16 of the 105 trial sites that were current for federal government services are exempt. The the July to September 2001 quarter were service industry is big business, covering monitored and out of the 581 sites subject to about two-thirds of economic activity in in- post harvest monitoring during the quarter dustrialised countries, a lucrative new market only 68 were visited. Is the Gene Technology for multinationals. One Nation wants a full Regulator critically underfunded and under- and frank public inquiry into the implications resourced? of GATS and a commitment from the gov- One Nation does not believe the environ- ernment that public services such as health mental impacts of GE are being adequately and education will remain publicly owned. addressed in Australia. To this end, we are This also applies to other trade agreements calling for a moratorium on field trials of such as the free trade area between the US genetically engineered food crops. This will and Australia. ensure that Australia is able to produce Concerning flexibility and rewards in the genuinely GE-free organic and conventional workplace, in the face of GATS we need now food crops. Organic crops in particular are more than ever to ensure a two-level struc- increasingly recognised as a new source of ture in relation to employment and the busi- income for farmers who have been forced to ness sector. Large companies require the diversify due to the effects of deregulation. ability of a workforce, and workers in that In order to better the lives of all Austra- environment require protection from mali- lians, One Nation, the people’s voice, will cious management or victimisation. We need ensure that wherever possible we are part of to find a balance that ensures business can the necessary debates that must occur as part function effectively and profitably while of our open, free and democratic society. workers’ rights, one of the last bastions of One Nation will be working to restore the people power, are protected. rights of Australians over economics in gov- ernment. We will strive to protect Austra- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 567 lians, ensuring that we are more than just a settlement of Australia. No less than cog in a brutal global economy. 3,552,000 hectares of agricultural land in Senator EGGLESTON (Western Aus- Western Australia has been identified as be- tralia) (8.03 p.m.)—I wish to talk about the ing at risk from salinity, and it is predicted problem of salinity. I must say it is consistent that this will rise to 4,181,000 hectares by with the excellent record of the Howard gov- 2020 and 6,490,000 by 2050. This means ernment in dealing with major environmental that approximately one-third of the agricul- problems in this community that in the Gov- tural area of the south-west of Western Aus- ernor-General’s speech mention was made of tralia may be affected by shallow watertables the fact that sustainable environmental issues and salinity by the year 2050. So Western are to be one of the highest priorities of the Australia faces an enormous environmental Howard government’s third term in office, crisis which needs to be dealt with in the reflected by the establishment of a sustain- national interest. That is why the salinity able environment committee of cabinet committee which was announced in the chaired by the Prime Minister. It was pleas- Governor-General’s speech is so important. ing also to see that the National Action Plan In Western Australia, the rising wa- for Salinity and Water Quality was specifi- tertables and salinity are estimated in current cally mentioned as something that this com- terms to have resulted in some $80 million in mittee would deal with. There is no doubt lost agricultural production—that is an that salinity, particularly in my home state of enormous amount of money—and, further- Western Australia, is one of the most serious more, more than $500 million has been environmental problems which Australia wiped off the capital value of properties af- faces. Indeed, it is so serious that Western fected by salinity. The annual cost to the na- Australia has the largest area of dryland sa- tion of shallow watertables and salinity in linity in Australia and has the highest risk of Western Australia is expected to be around increased salinity over the next 50 years. $664 million at this time. Not only do salin- What is salinity, many people ask. Why ity and rising watertables pose a significant does it occur? Many people who have flown threat to agricultural production but also they into Perth know from looking out of their damage precious and costly infrastructure, aircraft windows that there are great white such as roads, railways, bridges, telecommu- patches in the land below in the wheat belt nications, electricity networks, footpaths, areas. Salinity is a rising tide of salt, which gardens, buildings and townships. has a cancerous effect on the vegetation and Approximately 20 per cent of all road and on water quality, defiling and in some cases railway networks in the south-west of West- destroying all in its path. It has the potential ern Australia are currently affected by shal- to destroy or seriously inhibit the productiv- low watertables and salinity. Around 30,000 ity of some of the most valuable agricultural kilometres of road has the potential to be land in Australia, in the south-west of West- affected by salinity. This is thought to add up ern Australia. This land in the south-west of to around $500 million of the annual cost of Western Australia is prime wheat and sheep road repair and maintenance—an enormous country. In fact, Western Australia is the sum. This has major implications for all lev- largest wheat producer in the country, with a els of government, not only for local coun- total area sown of 4,625,000 hectares in cils but also for the state government and, in 1999-2000, producing 9,189,000 tonnes of turn, for the federal government because wheat from that land. So salinity has the po- those infrastructure costs need to be provided tential to have a very serious economic im- to maintain the roads, the railways and the pact on Australia’s agricultural produce. towns of this country. It is thought that some Salinity is caused by rising watertables 30 major rural towns in the south-west of that bring salt formed millions of years ago Western Australia may be affected by salin- to the soil surface and is very largely a result ity. Towns that have been identified as being of past and present land management prac- of high risk include Harvey in the south- tices which have occurred since European west, Jerramungup, Moora, Brookton, 568 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Wagin, and Merredin in the wheat belt. One nating from the wheat belt have already been has only to look down from an aircraft when written off as sources of drinking or irriga- flying over the eastern wheat belt to know tion waters and many others are now at risk. that the problem of salinity is devastating the Principal among these is the Blackwood country in Western Australia. River, which is a beautiful river which runs Shallow watertables also increase the risk through the lower south-west of the state, of flooding, which results in increased dam- through the great forests around Manjimup age to roads, fences, dams, agricultural lands and Pemberton and on down towards and wetlands. Salinity also poses a major Augusta, where it enters the ocean. Sadly, threat to biodiversity with hundreds of plants the Blackwood River, one of the most beauti- and animals at risk of extinction in the south- ful rivers in Western Australia, is now heav- west of Western Australia. In fact, the Aus- ily salinated. That, if nothing else, should tralian Dryland Salinity Assessment 2000 make every Western Australian stop and found that in the south-west of Western think about what is happening to the envi- Australia: ronment in the south-west of our state. • An estimated 1500 plants species will be One might wonder whether solutions to affected by salinity with 450 possibly subject this terrible problem are available. It has to to extinction; be said that there are no easy or inexpensive • Salinisation is likely to reduce fauna species solutions. The problem is a very difficult by 30 per cent in affected areas; one. It is going to cost a lot of money to cor- • Terrestrial animals will decline significantly rect and it is going to need a great deal of (e.g. a 50 per cent reduction in the number of water birds using wheat belt wetlands is an- commitment, not only from governments but ticipated due to the salinity induced death of also from the people of the south-west of shrubs and trees); Western Australia, to overcome the impact of • Species richness has already declined in salination. It is vitally important that the so- these areas with the onset of salinity. cial and economic impacts of any response to Already in this current year, some 600,000 the salinity crisis are minimised on farming hectares of perennial vegetation have been communities and are spread as evenly as identified as being at risk in the south-west possible across the community. But, as I of WA. Also, some 72,500 hectares of im- said, there has to be commitment to over- portant wetlands are thought to be at risk in coming this problem. Regrettably, in over- the south-west. This translates to 21 of the 54 coming the problem there are going to be wetlands located in the south-west of West- economic consequences, and it is inevitable ern Australia being at risk of salinisation. that some pain will be experienced by com- This is a terrible toll of devastation on the munities in dealing with the issue of salinity. environment in the south-west of Western But it is an issue that communities have got Australia. As a Western Australian, I can to face up to. People have to be prepared to only say that it is certainly a very sad toll to compromise farm production and lifestyle have to record. During the election campaign for the broader and greater objective of pre- the coalition committed to ‘a new national serving the environment of the south-west of wetlands repair program to support conser- Western Australia. vation and the restoration of nationally sig- There have been a number of approaches nificant wetlands across Australia’. This too proposed to deal with the salinity problem in will be one of the objectives of the commit- the south-west. Most important is a change tee which has been set up by the Prime Min- in land use and management practices. There ister to deal with these issues. is no doubt that the biggest villain in the de- Another general issue around increased velopment of the salinity problem in the salinity concerns the waterways of the south- south-west of Western Australia has been west of Western Australia. The water and land management practices and the extent to rivers are increasingly unsuitable as sources which land there has been cleared. I can re- of potable drinking water or for use as irri- call that in the 1960s the Brand Liberal gov- gation for agriculture. The big rivers ema- ernment was very proud of the fact that it Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 569 was clearing a million acres of so-called light country, which in Western Australia include land a year in the eastern wheat belt. This the Avon, South Coast, Northern Agricul- was thought to be a great thing at the time tural, South-West and the Ord, in the north of that would enormously expand wheat pro- the state. The plan will, among other things, duction in the state. But sadly, 40 years later, map salinity, allow engineering works such that has produced the disaster of heavy sali- as drainage schemes and salt interception nation of the eastern wheat belt and, regret- schemes to be undertaken, provide for large- tably, is the root cause of the problem. The scale revegetation projects, allow for the land clearing practices as well as the planting protection and rehabilitation of waterways of shallow-rooted vegetation, which does not and wetlands, encourage changed manage- soak up so much of the water as native spe- ment practices and land use, and encourage cies, have resulted in rising watertables and the development of new commercial oppor- caused rising salinity. tunities for those areas affected by salinity, Remnant native vegetation needs to be including the introduction of salt tolerant protected because it has the benefit of help- crops. ing to preserve the watertables, resulting in The $2.5 million Natural Heritage Trust, less salinity. It is very important that there be which was created by the Howard govern- a reduction in the current levels of land ment after the sale of the first tranche of Tel- clearing and that there be revegetation of the stra, has had a major beneficial effect on our affected properties in the eastern wheat belt environment through its five programs. The if the problem of salinity is to be overcome. Howard government, I am pleased to say, has On this point, I am very pleased to say that, indicated that the trust will be given a new since the commencement of the Howard regional focus, with more funding to regional government’s Natural Heritage Trust, the and catchment organisations, in this third area of trees and shrubs planted on agricul- term. tural land has increased from some 30,000 In conclusion I want to record that land hectares a year to over 150,000 hectares a and water management is a very important year. This is a major step in the right direc- issue, especially in Western Australia, if we tion. The large-scale planting of salt-tolerant are going to overcome the problem of salin- trees and deep-rooted perennial species ity, which is devastating the south-west of which will use more groundwater, thereby Western Australia in particular. I am very lowering the watertable and combating sa- pleased to say that the Howard government linity, is the best thing that can be done to has recognised the significance of the threat help reduce the problem of salt. of salinity to the south-west of Western Aus- Other things which can be done to help tralia and has indicated that it is willing to reduce the level of salt in the eastern wheat take very concrete measures to deal with that belt of Western Australia include engineering problem and invest very large amounts of proposals such as draining the water away federal money to ensure that solutions are from some of the areas where the salt has found. collected, such as at Lake Dumbleyung. On Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL (New this project the drainage scheme works by South Wales) (8.21 p.m.)—I rise also to pumping groundwater into evaporation speak in the address-in-reply debate and to ponds. By reducing the salt groundwater, the address the vacuous nature of the Governor- salt level is reduced. General’s address which clearly demon- The federal government has a national sa- strates the lack of a third-term agenda for the linity action plan, which is funded to the ex- Howard government. It clearly demonstrates tent of $700 million and is to be imple- that this is a government with no vision, no mented over seven years. The plan will be ideas and no strategic thinking. It is also a community driven and will target salinity government whose mandate one has to seri- and water quality in key catchment areas and ously question, given the deceit that was regions throughout Australia. It will begin by practised on the Australian people in the targeting the 21 highest priority areas in the lead-up to the last election. That has clearly 570 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 been demonstrated in recent weeks with the omy which should be going gangbusters, evidence that has now come out about the which has got a competitive currency in its children overboard and the evidence that has capacity to export and the market which it is now come out that the former Minister for seeking to penetrate. We have seen a net loss Defence, Mr Reith, knew the falsity of the of 60,000 jobs. What is worse is that, if you claims made in respect of the children over- look at the ABS statistics, they clearly dem- board. And I am sure that a lot more will onstrate that not only has there been a loss of come out in the Senate inquiry in the fullness jobs in the sector but there has been a very of time. significant shift— There is one particular area, which is my Senator Ferris—Senator Campbell, you area of responsibility, which clearly demon- lost 100,000 jobs. strates the lack of any strategic thinking or Senator Crossin—You have been in gov- any substantial legislative program. If you ernment too long, Senator Ferris. look at the area falling under the responsibil- ity of the Minister for Industry, Tourism and Senator Kemp interjecting— Resources, Mr Macfarlane, you will see that Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—from the government has proposed for debate the high-paid employment in manufacturing to Space Activities Amendment Bill 2002 and low-paid employment and part-time jobs. the Timor Joint Petroleum Development The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- Area Bill. For introduction, it has proposed DENT—Order! Just a minute, colleagues. the designs bill, which is to implement a new We listened to Senator Eggleston in absolute industrial design registration system; the In- quiet. I think we should do the same for dustry, Tourism and Resources Legislation Senator Campbell. Amendment Bill, for administrative matters Senator Kemp—He made a good speech. pertaining to the legislation; and the Patents Administration Bill. Senator Ferris—His was a sensible speech. Senator Ferris—The economy is going gangbusters. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- DENT—Senators, it is quite inappropriate to Senator Kemp interjecting— be raving on while the chair is speaking. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—As is (Senator Crowley)—Order! Senators! often the case with this government, its Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—The rhetoric never, ever matches its performance. government still has no agenda and no ideas That has been a constant feature of this gov- for our manufacturing sector and has not ernment since its election in March 1996. If attempted to address this very important area you look at its policies on research and de- of our national economy. It is not surprising, velopment, you will see that they have led to however, that the government does not have a decline in business investment and the clo- a policy for manufacturing, because this is a sure of many research facilities in the manu- government that, when it was elected in facturing sector. One of our major compa- 1996, came to power with a commitment and nies, BHP, after the election of this govern- a promise by the then industry minister, Mr ment in 1996 shut down its research facilities John Moore, of the creation of 200,000 jobs in Victoria. It shut them down because there in manufacturing over the term of the gov- was no support for research and development ernment’s first three years in office. That was by this government. If you look at the period the commitment that John Moore made to from 1996-2000, you will see that this gov- the Australian people in 1996. ernment cut something like $5 billion of What has been the result of this govern- support to industry. That had a massive im- ment’s strategic thinking for the manufac- pact on our private industry research capac- turing industry? It has been a net loss of ity. 60,000 jobs over the period that it has been The government now seeks to make a in power—a net loss in a sector of the econ- virtue of Backing Australia’s Ability, which Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 571 at best only restores $2.9 billion of that ex- creasing venture capital investment—but not penditure. Whilst I have a positive view of for the manufacturing industry. This is some of these programs, it is too little, too clearly indicated by the fact that, in 1997-98, late, given the fact that most of the programs of a total of $123 million invested in venture are back-loaded in terms of expenditure to capital, only $24 million went to manufac- 2004-05. That is not just a criticism from me turing. By 1999-2000, of a total of $579 mil- and that is not just a criticism from the Labor lion spent on venture capital, less than $16 Party; that is a criticism from the scientific million went to manufacturing. One of the community. They have consistently made current managers with an IIF licence, Nany- this criticism of Backing Australia’s Ability. ang Ventures, has a strong manufacturing There has also been the change in the tax focus. Its IIF investments will have an ap- rebate, which was a Labor government ini- proximate mix of 40 per cent manufacturing, tiative which stimulated investment in manu- 20 per cent medical devices, and 40 per cent facturing and R&D as a whole, from 150 per IT. While this is admirable and desirable, cent to 125 per cent. Research and develop- there is a real need to set up a specific IIF ment continues to stagnate under the Howard licence for manufacturing and for the manu- government. By the end of the 1990s the facturing sector. share of investment in research and devel- The coalition government has failed opment was about half of the OECD average spectacularly in promoting investment in of the mid-1990s. Expressed in percentage venture capital by Australian superannuation terms, in 14 OECD countries this worked out funds. Despite the fact that Australian super- at 6.6 per cent of manufacturing, value annuation funds are conservative relative to added, whilst in Australia in 1999 it came to overseas pension funds when invested in three per cent. There is little incentive to re- venture capital, the government has not in- verse the downward decline in Australian troduced any measures to effectively over- R&D investment by manufacturers. It has come this conservatism. The government been slipping further and further behind introduced measures in the 39th parliament since 1995-96. The manufacturing industry to encourage further investment in this area, has lost five years in which to build up a and they failed. According to the ABS, be- pipeline of innovations, and that loss is likely tween June 2000 and June 2001 the Austra- in manufacturing performance over the next lian superannuation funds’ commitment to 10 years. Backing Australia’s Ability, the venture capital increased by only two per cornerstone of this government’s innovation cent, while total commitments to venture approach, has done nothing to stimulate capital increased by 14 per cent. In June growth. Some changes that have been made 2000, the contribution to venture capital by are positive: for example, the 175 per cent Australian superannuation funds represented premium and its extension to companies cur- only 0.5 per cent of the superannuation rently accessing the R&D START scheme— funds’ total investment portfolio. The gov- albeit that these changes were actually forced ernment has effectively done nothing to ad- upon the government as a result of a minor- dress this issue. ity report of the Senate Economics Refer- In the area of export facilitation—which is ences Committee into that legislation. vital to our manufacturing industry—through There are a number of key issues that are trade liberalisation our manufacturing indus- not addressed in Backing Australia’s Ability. try has been left highly exposed to import In the area of venture capital, in 1998 the competition. It is a responsibility of govern- coalition government established the Inno- ment to assist our industries where possible, vation Investment Fund to address the seri- and the former Labor government took the ous underinvestment in the venture capital lead in this respect with its extension of the market. A preliminary report by AusIndustry Export Market Development Grants Scheme. about the investments made so far by the IIF The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT licence holders suggests that the IIF program (Senator Calvert)—Order! Those senators is making an important contribution to in- on my right: you know that by loitering in 572 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 corridors you are against standing orders. This government has no agenda, no ideas, Would you please resume your seats. no vision and no way in which to address Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—The these key issues. One only has to look at the person you are talking about is an expert at current crisis in the steel industry to see the loitering in corridors. He is known around paucity of thinking and ideas in this govern- the building as the grey ghost. ment. Here is a crisis created by one of our trading partners, which has unilaterally im- When the ALP left office in 1996, there posed tariffs on a sector of industry because was close to $300 million in this scheme. that sector in its own country is inefficient. This has been capped at $150 million by the That has created a set of circumstances for us coalition. That creates uncertainty amongst where we have put an industry through, over our exporters, and this cap has hit manufac- the past 17 years, structural change to drive turing the hardest. In the review of the Ex- efficiency to make them a world efficient port Market Development Grants Scheme by steel producer—BHP. Employment in the Austrade in June 2000, there was a stern industry was cut from some 26,000 down to warning issued to the government. The re- some 5,000 to 7,000 over that period. We view states: now have a world efficient industry which is The cap on funding set at $150 million per year threatened in terms of its ongoing capacity may result in the diminution of the value of grants because of the unilateral decision by the for more than 1,000 grant recipients each year United States to impose tariffs. over the period to 2005-06. The Board considers that the returns from the scheme are such that the Not only is that industry threatened but best outcome would be for all grantees to receive those potential new steel producers in New- the full value of their entitlements … castle who are looking to establish new fa- The Board believes that if the cap is to be re- cilities which will provide jobs in that region tained, the level at which it is set should be de- are also threatened. Not only are the jobs of termined having regard to the level of demand for those potential new efficient steel makers EMDG and the real value of the grants to exports. threatened but the jobs of the people in the It must also be remembered that this gov- north-west of Western Australia who mine ernment made a promise to double exporters, the iron ore and export it to Korea and Ja- but nothing has been done. Further, the In- pan—whose steel industries use that iron ternational Trade Enhancement Scheme has ore—are also threatened, in terms of the ca- been cancelled, reducing again the avenues pacity of the industry and its access to mar- for our manufacturers to export to overseas kets. What is this government doing? This markets. Over the period 1990 to 1996, more government cannot even get the Prime Min- than 100 companies received low interest ister to pick up the telephone and talk to his loans under this scheme. Of those compa- best friend George Bush, the President of the nies, some $5.9 billion of net foreign ex- United States, and say, ‘Hang on, mate! change earnings had been generated by 2001 We’re supposed to be on the same side. You for loans of less than $120 million. Eight of can’t take decisions of this nature that are the last nine Australian Exporter of the Year going to substantially impact upon workers winners were ITES program participants. in this country.’ Close to half the firms were manufacturers, Senator Abetz—Have you seen the Fi- and the program was highly successful in nancial Review today? increasing the number of manufacturers with Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—He export earnings of $2 million to $50 million. has not even got the capacity to pick up the Effective support mechanisms are needed phone. You know that what is in today’s urgently to facilitate manufacturers to intro- newspaper does not guarantee the jobs of duce process change, integrate ICT systems, those workers in the steel industry. It falls export skills capacity and match skill needs, significantly short of the capacity to do that. and apply world’s best practice new manu- Senator Abetz, you ought to be ashamed of facturing techniques. yourself. What have you been doing while the jobs of shipbuilding workers at Incat in Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 573

Tasmania have been threatened over the last Financial Review of Wednesday, 13 Febru- couple of weeks? ary detailed the development of the innova- Senator Abetz—Jim Bacon has been tion ministry, with this portfolio added to buying ferries overseas. John Brumby’s Treasury and State and Re- gional Development ministry, giving Mr Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—What Brumby overall control of the newly formed have you been doing to try and secure the Department of Innovation, Industry and Re- jobs of those workers? You have been run- gional Development. This department will ning around Tasmania trying to play petty reform the state’s investment and attraction politics because you think you might pick up program, covering a range of industries in- a few cheap votes for the Liberal Party in the cluding biotechnology, design, manufactur- state election. You will not do it, Senator ing and information and communications Abetz. People are far more intelligent than technology. That has been repeated by other you give them credit for. Labor governments around the country. It Senator Abetz—I rise on a point of order. has been repeated by the Queensland gov- Not only is it false—and Senator George ernment, the South Australian government Campbell knows it to be false—but he and the New South Wales government, should be directing his comments through which has recently released its report on se- the chair and not to me or, indeed, to any curing our manufacturing focus. At least La- other senator personally. Whilst I am on my bor state governments are focused on ensur- feet, can I suggest that he ask Jim Bacon, the ing that a critical element of our economy Labor Premier of Tasmania, to buy a ferry will continue to be provided with the capac- made by Incat rather than second-hand ity to grow into the future. Greek vessels. One other clear example of this govern- The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- ment’s absolute neglect of the manufacturing DENT—Senator Abetz, you are debating. sector is what is happening with the auto There is no point of order but, Senator industry. We had press release No. 103, George Campbell, I ask you to address your which I understand was released just before remarks to the chair. the New Year, in which the Treasurer and the Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—I Minister for Industry, Tourism and Re- will, Mr Acting Deputy President. sources, Ian Macfarlane, announced: Senator Abetz—Second-hand Greek ves- ... an inquiry into the automotive industry to in- sels in favour of Australian jobs. form the government decision-making on policy arrangements to apply after 2005. Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—On that point, Senator Abetz knows—and so They said in that press release that the terms does everybody in Tasmania—that those of reference would be released, that the third ferries are not the vessels that are necessary commissioner would be announced in early to run the Bass Strait. January and that the inquiry would com- mence in early January. The terms of refer- Senator Abetz—Why are you talking ence still have not been released and the down Australian products? You are talking third commissioner still has not been an- down Australian products. You are treacher- nounced. Everybody knows that the timing ous. of this inquiry and its early resolution is Senator GEORGE CAMPBELL—They critical to those companies making decisions are not vessels with the capacity to run the about the new models that will be introduced Bass Strait, and he knows it. He knows that in 2006-07. The government is holding an is the fallacy in the claims he is making on industry to ransom because they do not have that issue. the capacity to make a decision to get it on I will look at some of the other issues. The the road. (Time expired) reality is that some of the state governments Senator HEFFERNAN (New South in this country are trying to pick up the ball Wales—Parliamentary Secretary to Cabinet) in terms of our manufacturing sector. The (8.43 p.m.)—The child protection mission 574 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 statement for any government, institution or But to deploy judicial authority in support of a parent need be no more complicated than the cause risks undermining the foundation upon following statement: all children have a basic which such authority rests. right to their childhood and should enjoy an In paragraph 35, His Honour deals with sus- unconditional safe guarantee of passage taining judicial legitimacy. He says: through their years of innocence. The cata- The quality which sustains judicial legitimacy is strophic economic, social and human cost of not bravery, or creativity, but fidelity. our failure to achieve this outcome should be His Honour concludes his speech to the Bar set in the terms of a royal commission. Association Conference by saying: In speaking to the address-in-reply to the Like fairness, legitimacy should be constantly on Governor-General’s speech, I feel sure that display in courts. the Governor-General would support the I am concerned that our institutions are in above proposition. I can only hope he would denial on the criteria so eloquently set out by support my exploration tonight of the ques- the Chief Justice in his July 2000 speech in tion of whether judicial legitimacy is a myth New York. without a federal judicial commission. On 2 July 2000, the Chief Justice of the High Having read extracts from the case for ju- Court, in a very sensitive and important dicial legitimacy, as set out by the Chief Jus- speech to the Australian Bar Association tice, I would now like to turn to the dilemma Conference in New York, addressed the to which a fellow judge deployed his judicial subject of judicial legitimacy. I would like to authority so eloquently in his speech of 3 quote several extracts from this important July 1999 to the King’s College School of speech. The Chief Justice said in paragraph Law in London—that is, the real risk of ‘sui- 4: cide, blackmail, police entrapment, hypoc- risy and other horrors’ suffered by male same Judicial power ... is held on trust. It is an ex- press trust, the conditions of which are stated in sex participants in New South Wales prior to the commission of a judge or magistrate, and the the enactment of the 1984 Crimes Amend- terms of the judicial oath. ment Act (NSW) No. 7. Subsequent to this In paragraph 8, His Honour states: speech, there was a further judicial speech on 24 February 2000 to the impressionable The capacity of an individual to make an impar- young men at St Ignatious College in Syd- tial determination of the facts, and to understand ney—a speech in which an impartial ob- and conscientiously apply the law, is the primary requirement of fitness for judicial office. server may have detected the ‘deployment of judicial authority in support of a cause’. His Honour goes on with regard to judicial discretion: Having regard to findings in the New South Wales courts last year that certain life- Ultimately, however, in the administration of any style offences committed prior to the 1984 law, there comes a point beyond which discretion cannot travel. At this point, if a judge is unable in Crimes Amendment Act (NSW) No. 7 could good conscience to implement the law, he or she still be prosecuted, it concerned me that may resign. There may be no other course prop- some judicial officers could still be captive erly available. Judges whose authority comes of the horrific circumstances as described by from the will of the people, and who exercise His Honour in his speech to the King’s Col- authority upon trust that they will administer jus- lege in London on 3 July 1999. These con- tice according to law, have no right to subvert the cerns were further reinforced to me recently law because they disagree with a particular rule. by a senior judicial officer who said he could No judge has a choice between implementing the see no solution to this legal minefield. He law and disobeying it. categorically stated that there should have His Honour addresses the issue of impartial- been no appointments of practising homo- ity in paragraph 4: sexuals to the judiciary in New South Wales Impartiality is a condition upon which judges are prior to May 1984 because of the criminality invested with authority. of certain acts inherent in that lifestyle being He goes on: prescribed by the law at the time, regardless of whether the law was enforced at the time. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 575

My concerns led me to revisit the tran- testimony to the code of silence at work. script of the Wood royal commission and the Sadly, I have not met anyone who thought revelations by the disgraced solicitor, KR5, the majority of evidence given to support who provided evidence regarding clients at Yeldham by senior legal and judicial figures the boy brothel Costellos in the following was believable, nor that the classic escape terms: clause ‘the search for corruption and not ... but it was an amazing place there were lawyers crime’ was again used as anything other than there, judges .... a cover-up in sections of its paedophile ref- Unfortunately, KR5 was interrupted mid- erence. If the legal system was not compro- sentence by counsel assisting Paddy Ber- mised, Yeldham would have been dealt with gin—now Justice Bergin—in the following years earlier than he was. He would probably terms: be still alive and would not have sat in judg- ment in circumstances that were highly inap- ... just pausing there ... propriate, biased and surely failing the test of The issue of who the judges were was never judicial legitimacy. The Wood royal commis- answered. My inquiries as to when these se- sion in its final report at 7.226 concluded: rious allegations would be dealt with were ... the Commission has looked at factors which replied to in the following terms: contribute to inadequacies in this type of investi- We have decided not to revisit any of that because gation—those identified include an inability to the public would lose confidence in the judiciary. believe that the prominent person would engage I believe most people concerned by, or vic- in such conduct, in some cases conditioned by tims of, child sexual abuse have already lost respect for or close association with the institu- tion they represent (for example, church or justice confidence. I have thought long and hard and system). have come to a very firm conclusion that there is an urgent need in New South Wales I am concerned that similar circumstances to retrospectively legislate to protect people, still exist. One, of several well known within including some high profile political, judi- legal, judicial and media circles but for years cial, legal and media figures, many of whom like Yeldham considered too sensitive and presently still lead double lives, and provide too difficult to address, I would like to ad- these people with legal relief from prosecu- dress. tion for pre-May 1984 lifestyle criminal of- I refer to a judge who has put himself at fences. grave risk of blackmail, entrapment, com- Hopefully, this legislation would end the promise and hypocrisy. This judge has come precarious existence to which His Honour to the attention of senior police and the Child referred and hopefully would remove the Protection Enforcement Agency in New need for the compromising code of silence South Wales. His activities and police con- which hideously compromised the police cerns have been reported by policing special branch, is still compromising police authorities to senior judicial officers in both prosecutions in New South Wales and, state and federal contexts. I regret to inform whether intended or not, has also protected the Senate that, over a period of years, I have people who see sex with children as a perk of personally interviewed at great length, and office or, at best, an everyday part of permis- obtained statutory declarations from, former sible life. Only with this legislation will the rentboys from Sydney and Wollongong who child sex offences code of silence be broken, worked the Wall at Darlinghurst as young and only then will the ongoing and evident male prostitutes, some of whom were taken serious compromise of sections of our judi- to an address in Darley Street—an address cial, legal, political and religious institutions known to the police, adjacent to the Wall— begin to be dismantled. by this judge on various occasions in a fee- for-service arrangement. I am informed New The tragedy of the Justice Yeldham com- South Wales police can confirm these activi- promise was a product of this dilemma. The ties. I also have in my possession Comcar serious fault lines identified and evident at driver records which document and record ICAC and the Wood royal commission are this same judge using this taxpayer funded 576 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 service on a regular basis to pick up from an abuse of altar boys as young as six years old address known to the police in Clapton over a period of 20 years. These crimes of Place—adjacent to Kings Cross—a young stolen innocence, human violation and be- male and accompany him to the judge’s trayal can only be described as abhorrent— home address. made worse, if that is possible, by the ulti- According to correspondence I have re- mate trust these innocent young victims and ceived, these Comcar records, which were their parents would have placed in their par- officially alleged to have been destroyed in ish priest, only to discover the ultimate be- the 1990s under the Archives Act but in fact trayal from a person who delivered first con- were still in existence in the year 2000, have fession and first Holy Communion to these been refused to me under FOI, and after be- innocents and then for self-gratification stole ing requisitioned many of these documents their innocence and left a lifelong legacy of have now mysteriously disappeared. These ruined lives, tortured minds and dysfunc- records indicate the name of the driver, the tional families. car registration, kilometres on the speed- This priest was sentenced to a lengthy jail ometer, time of original pick-up, pick-up term in excess of 10 years. He appealed his location, often any additional pick-ups and, sentence in the New South Wales Court of of course, final destination. This particular Criminal Appeal and lost. He then appealed docket, a typical docket, shows a pick-up of for special leave to the High Court of Aus- the judge in the basement of the Law Courts tralia. This special leave application to ap- at 1900 hours on a given date and a journey peal was heard and granted. In granting spe- via Darlinghurst to the judge’s home address. cial leave to appeal, one of the two judges, in This docket, besides other jobs, also speci- weighting the crimes of the priest and the fies a job for the same judge at 2300 hours application for special leave against the rea- on the same night, a pick-up from the judge’s sons and source of the priest’s behaviour, home address, destination Darlinghurst, said: which was on this occasion and many others ... and I just have in the back of my mind that returning the young male to the address in there must be some principle in sentencing that Clapton Place. The docket also notes that the you should take into account that the source is the judge did not travel, that the young male was one source. You could say it was his sexual fan- returned unaccompanied. tasy. You could say it was his predicament as a priest committed to celibacy. You could give dif- It is obvious from this docket and others I ferent excuses. have the details of that these return journeys on bookings by the judge for an unaccompa- His Honour went even further down a path nied young male companion are a serious of judicial adventurism and creativity by re- breach and unauthorised and contemptuous lying on another basis to grant the special use of the Comcar service. I am informed leave application: that many such jobs were not recorded but, ... this man may have been a situational paedo- with the cooperation of a member of the phile. since disbanded Sydney allocation office, Are the altar boys and their parents in the were ‘foreigners’. Over a period of time this Hunter region of New South Wales likely to pattern of Comcar use, which created for agree with the legalese of the judge that in some drivers serious concern and misgivings some obscure way the priest is a victim be- over inappropriate use of the Comcar, was cause he is an unfortunate situational paedo- brought to a head. These concerns were phile with an insatiable sexual fantasy locked raised with the judge. These drivers, who in in by a vow of celibacy? It has a familiar the public good may have put their jobs at ring to it. Could the circumstances exist risk, deserve whistleblower protection. where a reasonable person in the court that I would now like to raise the trial and day would have reasonable grounds to have conviction of a priest from the Maitland dio- an apprehension of bias in the judge’s words cese, Vincent Gerard Ryan. He was charged and decision on that day? Could the circum- with and found guilty of buggery and sexual stances exist where a reasonable person Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 577 would also have an apprehension of a sub- tantly, they have all confirmed through their liminal self-defence by the judge? words and actions that indeed judicial le- Earlier in this speech I referred to a judge gitimacy is a myth without a federal judicial who has come to the attention of the New commission—because they are all one and South Wales police, who indiscreetly, im- the same person. properly and illegally used Comcar, who I seek leave to table two speeches: one to regularly trawled for rough trade at the Dar- the Australian Bar Association conference in linghurst Wall, who according to police New York by Justice Murray Gleeson and statements and interviews regularly played one to the King’s College School of Law in out his fantasies in a fee-for-service ar- London by the Hon. Justice Michael Kirby. rangement, and who is also one of the people The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT whose file was referred to in the final report (Senator Calvert)—Is leave granted? of the Wood royal commission at 7.288, where the commission concluded in the fol- Senator George Campbell—No, it is not. lowing terms: We have not seen them. ... the matter is complicated by the manner in Senator HEFFERNAN—They are public which the file was managed and its contents documents. ‘lost’. Whether or not some sinister feature un- Senator George Campbell—It is a cour- derlines that event, the Commission is very trou- tesy to let us see them first. bled that Rope— The ACTING DEPUTY PRESI- the investigating police officer— DENT—Leave is not granted, but I suspect could have provided a report to Hadley that was that it may be granted later. I will return to clearly incorrect. The Commission finds it hard to the question later on, Senator, once the accept that this was a result simply of inadver- shadow minister at the table has perused the tence. It is more inclined to the view that this was documents. as the result of Rope feeling that he was in a very difficult position in which he lacked proper sup- Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) port or direction. This was almost certainly due in (9.00 p.m.)—I rise this evening to make my part to the undue deference paid to people in high contribution to the address-in-reply to the places, and also due to the entirely inappropriate speech by that certain individual which was philosophy at the time that sensitive matters were delivered at the opening of parliament. This better left undisturbed and unknown. is the first formal opportunity I have had to I believe that most Australian families would recognise the election of Mr David Tollner to have the view that this judge fails the test of the new seat of Solomon and the election of public trust and judicial legitimacy as set out my colleague Senator Nigel Scullion. I wel- by the Chief Justice of the High Court in his come them both to this parliament and wish New York speech and clearly is not fit and them well for their deliberations and their proper to sit in judgment of people charged work in the House of Representatives and the with sex offences against children. Senate. In regard to the seat of Solomon, This same judge shares three things in although David Tollner may well be a like- common with the judge who made the able fellow, I am hoping that his time in the speech to the King’s College School of Law other place is very short and that he enjoys and the judge who made the speech to St the next three years—I am hoping he will be Ignatius College and the judge who made the there for only three years. observations about Father Vincent Gerard It is interesting to analyse the outcome of Ryan and granted the special leave applica- the federal election when you look to the tion. All four, through the deployment of Northern Territory. Once again, as in the judicial authority and some adventurism, 1998 election, Northern Territory people have made out a historic and compelling case swung behind the Labor Party and gave us for the establishment of a federal judicial their support. In 1998, we returned to the commission. They have all displayed a House of Representatives an ALP member— highly skilled and articulate capacity to man- Warren Snowdon—with a swing to the Labor age close public scrutiny and, most impor- Party and we did the same last year. In fact, 578 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 the total swing to the Labor Party across the course of the six-week campaign. There is Northern Territory on a two-party preferred nothing that either of those candidates can basis was 1.92 per cent. In Solomon, which say that this government would do for the on paper was to be at least a 2½ per cent safe Northern Territory, particularly for Solomon. seat for the Country Liberal Party, there was We produced a plan for Northern Austra- a swing to Labor of 2.15 per cent. That goes lia and people in the Northern Territory real- against the national trend of a swing against ised and appreciated that. We produced a the Labor Party of 1.92 per cent. plan that recognised that Northern Australia If you analyse what happened in the should be given a stronger local voice. We Northern Territory, you will find that people produced a plan that recognised that North- swung behind and supported the Labor Party ern Australia is the gateway to Australia’s more than the Country Liberal Party. David future, that we live in the best part of this Tollner in the seat of Solomon should, on country to open up investment and economic paper, if the national trend had translated to development because of our proximity to what was happening in the Northern Terri- South-East Asia. We produced a plan which tory, now be sitting on a very safe seat of showed that we appreciated the defence fa- over four per cent, but he is not. He is now cilities being located in Northern Australia. sitting in one of the two most marginal seats We recognise the contributions and concerns in this country. David Tollner won the seat of of our defence personnel and their families, Solomon by only 88 votes against a fantastic something that the coalition did not do dur- candidate in Laurene Hull. I take this op- ing that campaign. We committed to re- portunity to publicly congratulate Laurene building the Office of Northern Development for a fantastic campaign, given that she was because we realised that there needed to be preselected only three weeks before the an- an office that attracted investment, created nouncement of the federal election. In eight stronger links with Asia, facilitated major weeks she was able to gain an enormous infrastructure, supported skilled migration swing to the Labor Party and was nearly able and built on our tourism potential. to win that seat for us. We talked about having a gas develop- Why did people swing to the Labor Party ment task force, something that I have yet to during the last federal election? Why was the hear this coalition government commit to, Country Liberal Party not as successful in even though they have now won the election. maintaining that seat as safely as they should There was not a word of it during the elec- have? The answer is that during the course of tion and there has not been any talk of such a the federal election campaign—I will get to development since. They are simply sitting that in a moment because neither of those on their hands when it comes to progressing candidates were game enough to tell the negotiations over the development of gas people in the Northern Territory exactly fields in the seas north of us. We also com- which party they were going to line up with mitted $500,000 to research in the area. We until after the result—there was not one committed a fairer system of regional airport piece of policy produced by the coalition in charges to look at the specific charging re- respect of Solomon or the Northern Territory, gime for airport charges and the fact that apart from a pamphlet in someone’s letterbox regional airports throughout the Northern introducing the candidates. That was it—a Territory are charging far above the costs few odd advertisements advertising the can- that the users can afford. didates and a stall at Casuarina Shopping We also decided that we would allocate Square where they expected to get most of $500,000 to a tourism revival strategy. Even the people’s votes. But people in Palmerston though this government won the election, were quite offended because they do not of- even though we have seen the demise of An- ten shop in that area. So with a campaign sett twice now and we have seen a terrific that was very targeted at the northern sub- attempt by the Northern Territory govern- urbs, they did not fail at all to grab that vote, ment to get Virgin Blue flying to the Terri- but there were no policies released during the tory, what have we seen this government do Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 579 in relation to tourism? Nothing. Quite the campaign such as ‘Feminists inhabit a differ- reverse, we have seen the Australian Tourism ent country’; ‘Power plays: sting of defeat Council abolish the position of special in- for women on the way up’; ‘Twenty-five per digenous tourism personnel officer. cent: the interest rate is still too low’, and so We have seen no commitment by the fed- it goes on. The headlines were created by the eral government to do anything about the media and targeted women that had been downturn of the tourism industry in the elected and women that now hold senior Northern Territory. We had recognised that posts in either of the parties. I guess it was there was a need to revive that industry and another attempt to play down the role that we were going to start with an allocation of women play in parliament. I believe that is half a million dollars. We made an enormous all because there is not a critical mass of commitment not only to the Indian Ocean women through which those comments can territories in moving towards self- be refuted and overturned. There simply are government for those territories but also to not enough of us on either side of the cham- indigenous policies, in looking at what we ber. Hopefully, as the years go by, we will could do in the areas of indigenous commu- see that situation improve. nity services and employment, community Let me move on to the opening of parlia- development and self-reliance and in making ment. The Howard government missed a a commitment to the stolen generations. So wonderful opportunity to move on their we had a comprehensive package for north- stance in terms of indigenous Australians. ern Australia. Remember that this was the Prime Minister My colleagues on the other side of the who promised after the 1998 victory that he chamber will sing out that we lost Solomon; would make Aboriginal reconciliation a top but we won Lingiari. What they fail to un- priority. The report by the House of Repre- derstand is that they won by 88 votes—0.1 sentatives Procedure Committee suggested per cent. It is now the second most marginal changes to the procedures in the opening of seat in the country. If this government’s parliament, and the taking up of some of its campaign had worked in the Northern Terri- recommendations would have been a won- tory—it clearly did not—then Mr David derful opportunity for this government to Tollner should be sitting on over a four per move the reconciliation agenda forward, to cent safe seat. He is not. The government’s have indigenous people play a central part in campaign did not work in the Northern Ter- the opening of the 40th parliament, to have a ritory, because they had absolutely no plan welcome by the Ngunnawal people and to whatsoever. have an indigenous ceremony. Having in- digenous people here in these chambers Let me move on to the fact that we can would have been a fantastic sign to the in- now enjoy an increase in the number of fe- digenous community of our country that this male members in both houses. When we government was genuine about the practical look at a gender breakdown of the House of reconciliation that they go on about so much. Representatives, we see that the ALP has 20 But the 40th parliament opened with the female members and the coalition has 18. same ritual, in the same old way that it has When the new Senate is sworn in on 1 July for the last 101 years. It was a lost opportu- we will see 10 female senators from the La- nity for this government to do something bor Party and eight from the coalition. We practical about reconciliation in this country see only six female members in the Howard and it highlights the lack of vision and the cabinet ministry and eight in our shadow lack of leadership shown by this Prime Min- cabinet. But it is not about which party has ister. more women in parliament; it is about the fact that, across the board, there are not We have seen that this government is very enough women represented in parliament. good at saying one thing before the election When we are able to get a critical mass of and another afterwards. Before the election women in this parliament, we will be able to the health minister and the Prime Minister stop the headlines that pervaded the election both said that health premiums would come 580 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 down. What have we seen in the last few colleague Senator Scullion, in his first weeks? Health insurance has increased by up speech to this chamber, made some com- to 18 per cent—an increase that has been ments about the Northern Territory land approved by the government. Last week rights act and the Native Title Act. While it when Minister Tuckey was in the Northern is not common to comment about a person’s Territory, he was quite surprised about the first speech, there are a number of serious cost of petrol prices. He made some com- errors in that speech that I believe need to be ment along the lines that the high price of clarified for the record. A number of the petrol would worry ordinary housewives and comments, I believe, clearly show what this businessmen. That would surely put him in government is planning in the coming three line for next year’s misogynist award in the years in relation to indigenous rights and Northern Territory. Where has the minister land rights in the Northern Territory. Some of been all these years when a number of us in his comments clearly show that his under- the Territory have been raising the issue of standing of the difference between the two petrol prices over and over again with this acts is seriously lacking. government? It is as if Minister Tuckey ar- Senator Scullion referred to the ‘special rived in the Northern Territory and his eyes Aboriginal freehold title’—I assume he were suddenly opened to the high prices and means the Northern Territory land rights to the differences in what people in rural and act—and suggested that that was something regional Australia pay compared with our enjoyed by indigenous Territorians but not counterparts along the eastern seaboard. by other Australians. He went on to say that I also take this opportunity to make some we have two Commonwealth acts dealing comments about the government’s indige- with essentially the same issues and that if a nous policy released during the election single Commonwealth act is good enough campaign and to make some comments for the rest of Australia then it should be about the land rights act in the Northern Ter- good enough for the Northern Territory. He ritory. This government produced an indige- said he would be calling on members of this nous policy that really had no new initiatives Senate to support Territorians in amendments and no changes in it. It simply reiterated a to the Aboriginal land rights act that may be number of initiatives in health, education, brought forward to make it consistent with economic and employment development that native title. the government had announced in the previ- The two acts are, very clearly, very differ- ous years. There was no mention of heritage ent. His comments suggest that the ‘special in its policy—an area where this government Aboriginal freehold title’, obtained under the has completely botched the much-needed land rights act, is inferior to ordinary free- reform, despite all the stakeholders’ support. hold and is an impediment to development There was no mention of the independent and economic self-determination. He also needs of Torres Strait Islanders, in particular suggests that having the Native Title Act and with regard to regional autonomy, and there the land rights act in the Northern Territory is was certainly no mention of what this gov- excessive, involves duplication and creates a ernment would do in relation to implement- legal inconsistency. But the Northern Terri- ing any of the outstanding recommendations tory land rights act is a grant of statute under from the report of the Royal Commission the law. When people are granted some land, into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. a freehold grant under the Northern Territory If we look at the Governor-General’s ad- land rights act, they get the title to the land. dress, the indigenous citizens of this country They get an opportunity to have the most enjoyed only two paragraphs in that address. secure and complete form of title to their I think most indigenous people would be land. They enjoy a high degree of control sadly disappointed at the lack of specifics over activity on their land. They have the and the lack of commitment when it comes right to veto. No action can take place on the to what this government will do for indige- land without their informed consent. In rela- nous people over the coming three years. My tion to mining, as I said, they can grant per- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 581 mission or not to those seeking to carry out tion to Sydney to meet with the Prime Min- exploration on their land. They can simply ister to discuss the problems being experi- say to people, ‘You are not going to explore enced by the Tasmanian ferry manufacturer, on our land.’ Of course, once they do agree Incat. It is a major employer in Hobart, as to exploration, they cannot refuse the right to you know, Mr Acting Deputy President. It mine. But it is the most secure way in which has been highly successful in the past and I land can be granted to indigenous people in expect that when it gets over its current diffi- the Northern Territory. culties it will be highly successful in the fu- The Native Title Act, of course, is quite ture. different. It is a grant that is recognised only The Premier, Mr Bacon, and his delega- through common law, and there are two quite tion were in Canberra to ask Mr Howard and distinct interests in the land in relation to the Howard government to help Incat over- native title and the Northern Territory land come its current difficulties. The delegation rights act. It only recognises their right to with the Premier included Mr Craig Clifford, claim that land; it does not, in some cases, Managing Director and Mr John Harris, give them the title. Native title is the name Commercial Director for Incat; Mr Denis given by Australian law to the set of rights Rogers AO, Chairman, Tasmanian Develop- and interests in the land, which indigenous ment Board; Mr Jeff Kelly, Chief Executive, people have continuously enjoyed. Native Department of State Development; Mr Da- title is not extinguished by a land rights mon Thomas, Chief Executive Officer, Tas- grant; the two can coexist on the same land. manian Chamber of Commerce and Industry; So my colleague is saying that he will be Mr Terry Martin, Mayor, City of Glenorchy; asking this chamber to support a grant of the Mr Greg Cooper, Secretary, Australian Native Title Act rather than the land rights Manufacturing Workers Union, Mr Ray act. He will be asking us to make the land Pridmore, Global Head Asset Structuring, rights act consistent with the Native Title National Australia Bank Limited; and senior Act—in other words, to water down the land officers from the office of the Premier and rights act and, in some cases, make it not as the Department of State Development of the effective as people would perceive the Na- Tasmanian government. One would have to tive Title Act to be. I say, on behalf of Terri- say it was a group representing all interests torians, that I will not stand in this chamber in relation to the problems that Incat was and allow that to happen. There is no way experiencing. that I will allow the rights of indigenous Ter- The interests of the company were there— ritorians under the land rights act to be given its banker, the businesses that rely on Incat, up in favour of the Native Title Act while the workers and their families, and indeed ever I sit in this chamber. (Time expired) the broader interests of the state. This meet- Senator Abetz—I understand there is still ing was not about politics; it was about sup- the outstanding question of whether leave is porting a company that has been a major granted to table certain documents. contributor not just to the Tasmanian econ- omy but to the Australian economy. It was The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT about getting Commonwealth help to enable (Senator Calvert)—I understand that leave Incat to continue to operate and develop its has been granted. business further. This was a meeting of con- Senator O’BRIEN (Tasmania) (9.20 siderable importance to the state of Tasmania p.m.)—Tonight I want to touch upon an area and I understand, from talking to people who of government performance. The Governor- attended this meeting, that the Prime Minis- General’s speech outlined the direction and ter gave the delegation a good hearing and philosophies of the government for its com- that feedback after the meeting, from subse- ing three-year term and I want to talk about quent officer level discussion, was very the performance of the government in rela- positive. tion to the Incat matter. On 22 February, the I want to talk about the events that fol- Tasmanian Premier, Mr Bacon, led a delega- lowed that meeting and the potential impact 582 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 that those events will have for the Tasmanian owned employer. The group also supple- economy. Perhaps it is important to tell the ments work for an additional 300 people em- Senate something about Incat and its back- ployed by individual businesses that consti- ground, because it is a great story. The com- tute the local marine cluster—I think it is pany evolved from other boat building com- known as the Tasmanian Maritime Network. panies, including Sullivans Cove Ferry Co., As I said earlier, Incat has been experi- which was formed in 1972. The Sullivans encing some difficulties. These difficulties Cove Ferry Co. concentrated on the con- flow from an inability to sell new vessels, struction of conventional steel monohull ves- primarily as a consequence of a worldwide sels and also operated small ferries across the low demand for fast ferries. But I hasten to Derwent River in Hobart. The company add there is anecdotal evidence to suggest gained prominence, of course, when the that normal buying patterns are likely to re- Tasman Bridge collapsed in 1975, that being turn during the next Australian summer. The the sole bridge linking the eastern and west- meeting with the Prime Minister, which I ern shores of the Derwent and two important referred to earlier, and what it was hoped communities in Hobart. In the two years that would be a positive result from that meeting, it took to repair the bridge, the Sullivans was an important part of the plan to carry the Cove Ferry Co. transported more than nine company through to that expected recovery. million passengers. A partnership between Unfortunately, that plan was effectively Mr Robert Clifford, who was a boat builder, sabotaged by two Tasmanian Liberal politi- and Mr Phil Hercus, who was a designer, cians, the state Leader of the Opposition, Mr formed International Catamarans Pty Ltd to Bob Cheek, and the Special Minister of specialise in the production of fast ferries. State, Senator Abetz. Through extensive research the company determined that aluminium catamarans of- The day following that meeting in Can- fered better performance than other alterna- berra Mr Cheek called the Prime Minister. tives and commenced to specialise in the He pushed the fact that the Tasmanian gov- manufacture of aluminium construction fer- ernment was considering the purchase of two ries. monohulled vessels to operate passenger services across Bass Strait, and his plan was In 1983 the concept of a wavepiercing de- clear. It was a crude plan designed to achieve sign was conceived and trials of an 87-metre short-term political advantage. He wanted prototype were conducted in 1984. In Febru- the Prime Minister to abandon any support ary 1988 the Clifford-Hercus partnership for Incat in order to embarrass the state La- amicably terminated, allowing each partner bor government. Might I say that, in doing to concentrate on his respective business in- so, he ignored the interests which were rep- terests. Mr Phil Hercus, designing under a resented by the members of that delega- separate and unrelated business, continued to tion—that very broad representative delega- operate, and Mr Robert Clifford, designing tion—and the interests of the Tasmanian and building under a new company, Incat business community, the employees of Incat Tasmania Pty Ltd, based in Hobart, contin- and the greater community of Hobart. ued to operate. Mr Cheek happily acknowledged that he Since that time, Incat has built nearly 60 called the Prime Minister the day after the vessels of varying lengths. These ferries, one delegation met Mr Howard. He happily ad- would have to say, have revolutionised mits that he pushed the fact that there was a transport links around the United Kingdom. proposal to purchase monohull vessels to Incat-built ships now operate in North and operate the Bass Strait service and he claims South America, Australasia, the Mediterra- that the Prime Minister was surprised that the nean and throughout greater Europe. Until Tasmanian government chose not to pur- recently the company employed a work force chase Incat catamarans. Well, that is just not of about 1,000 employees skilled in alumin- credible. It is not credible that the Prime ium design and manufacturing, and, as I un- Minister spoke to Mr Cheek on the Saturday, derstand, it is Tasmania’s largest privately then assessed the merits of the use of the Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 583 catamaran on Bass Strait, then spoke to the Senator Abetz—You’ll never make a de- responsible minister about the merits of the tective, Kerry. Incat option versus the monohull option, and Senator O’BRIEN—I do not need to be a then that minister, Mr Macfarlane, rewrote detective when the clues are so clear. This his submission in time for consideration of plan was discredited within days by none federal cabinet on the Monday. That is just other than the federal Minister for Small not credible. What is credible is that there Business and Tourism, Mr Hockey. Mr was a plan by Senator Abetz and Mr Cheek Hockey actually considered the question of to put in place, with the support of the fed- how best to serve the tourist trade across eral government, a political fix. It could not Bass Strait. He actually consulted the tour- have been a decision based on the proper ism industry, which apparently Senator consideration of all of the policy options in Abetz did not. Let me quote what he said the context of the timetable that I have just was his view on this matter. He said: outlined. The cat is not working from a tourism sense and Mr Cheek then attempted to extract him- the general view here— self from one of the better political own that is in Tasmania— goals in recent times by pushing the idea that the construction of a much larger catamaran is that a twin monohull service would be best. Tasmania needs reliable transport and I have for the Bass Strait service was the option to picked up on the fact that two ferries are wanted. be pursued, and I understand that Senator Abetz backed him all the way. I think sena- Not Mr Bacon, not me, no-one from the op- tors here, particularly Tasmanian senators, position, no-one from the state Labor gov- will recall that after the last election Senator ernment; none other than the federal minister Abetz warned Tasmania that it would not get for tourism, Mr Joe Hockey. the representation it deserved from the How- The defence used by the federal Minister ard government. He said that the Howard for Industry, Tourism and Resources, Mr government would not represent the interests Macfarlane, when he announced that the fed- of Tasmanians because they had kicked the eral government would not help Incat was Liberal Party in the teeth for a second term. also flawed. His defence was built around a Senator Abetz—That is false, and you claim that the state government had not done know it. enough to support the company. But that claim, might I say, does not sit comfortably Senator O’BRIEN—No; that is true, with the facts. Here they are. The Tasmanian Senator Abetz. government supported Incat from the out- Senator Abetz—No; that is false, and you set—various governments of various politi- know it. cal colours. From the outset, when the com- Senator O’BRIEN—We will see what pany constructed its first wave-piercing the record says. A spokesman for Senator catamaran it had the support of the Tasma- Abetz, I must say, locked him in with the nian government. Performance guarantees strategy which was being pursued by Mr had been provided to the purchaser, Sea Cheek. He was quoted in the Burnie Advo- Containers of the United Kingdom, to cover cate as saying: deposits and progress payments and mini- Bob Cheek has the answer. This— mum performance levels by these vessels. The company has also been provided with that is a commitment to purchase a 112- other financial and non-financial support metre catamaran— over many years that has improved its busi- would be a great demonstration of the faith in ness and management systems. This has in- Incat and of great assistance to sell them interna- cluded exhibition and overseas trade mission tionally. assistance. The state government was also So when it comes to Senator Abetz we have responsible for the initiative and for provid- the motive, we have the fingerprints, perhaps ing the necessary funding for the establish- even the proof. ment of the local Aluminium School of Welding Excellence. This school underpins 584 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 not only the Incat operation but also other was still under the possible misapprehension local and national fabricators. There has also that it would be a genuine all-parties delega- been extensive assistance from the state gov- tion and also that I would be given a brief- ernment with major land reclamation at the ing. company’s Hobart site. In addition, the state To this date, not a single federal Liberal government provided a loan of $30 million senator has had a briefing on Incat from the in July 2001 in support of the company’s state government. The reason is quite clear: working capital requirements to allow time Mr Bacon and the state Labor government for the sale of vessels. Further, the state gov- wanted to deflect any possibility of the state ernment has assisted the company in the area government losing the $30 million that it had of securing vessel sales. poked into Incat without telling anybody. That is a lot of targeted and effective sup- The state Labor government now promotes port from a small state for a major Tasma- the fact that it has given $30 million to Incat, nian based enterprise. What conclusion the terms of which we still know nothing should we draw from all of this? I think the about—nothing whatsoever. But the public conclusions are fairly simple. One is that Mr record shows $90 million worth of federal Bob Cheek does not deserve to aspire to the government assistance to Incat—all through position of being Premier of Tasmania. He proper programs, all transparent. Everybody clearly is not up to the job. In fact, he is way can link it up with a program that exists for short of what is required to achieve that. May everybody else in the shipbuilding industry I say that the interjections from Senator within Australia. The important thing here is Abetz earlier about not being invited on the that the Labor Premier of Tasmania, when delegation indicate one thing to me: that called upon to support Saxon wood heaters Senator Abetz’s view of the world is limited in Tasmania, said: to the interests of the Tasmanian branch of It is not government’s role to support and bail out the Liberal Party, because he looks no fur- private enterprise. ther. He said the same about Harris Scarfe. He Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Special said the same about Blue Ribbon. But he did Minister of State) (9.36 p.m.)—I rise in this this secret deal with $30 million of taxpay- address-in-reply to take issue with some of ers’ money, and when he became alarmed the wild and inaccurate assertions of Senator that this might be lost he quickly wanted to O’Brien. If I thought that Senator O’Brien cost-shift onto the federal government and had the intellectual horsepower, I would pos- try to blame them. sibly claim that he was deliberately mis- The delegation went to Sydney. I issued a leading the Senate, but I will give him the media release at the time indicating that the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that he federal government’s approach to bailing out does not have that capacity and he has just private enterprise was as, for example, for misled himself. Mr Acting Deputy President Ansett and that no false expectations ought Calvert, as you well know, this delegation to to be raised as a result of my assistance in the Prime Minister was commenced as a re- supporting this delegation to the Prime Min- sult of a telephone call by the Labor Premier ister. The difficulty that the Labor Premier of Tasmania to me asking me whether I finds himself in is that, prior to his visit to could arrange an urgent all-parties visit to the the Prime Minister, he had locked himself Prime Minister to talk to him about Incat. I into a $200-plus million deal, the details of naively believed that this was going to be not which we still do not know. Indeed, as a a political stunt but a genuine visit to see former senior journalist in Tasmania said, the what could be done for Incat. As a result, state Labor government, the Bacon govern- within 24 hours I was able to ring back the ment, is the most secretive government that Premier of Tasmania and indicate to him that he has reported on in his long record—and a meeting had been arranged for a week’s his distinguished record—as a political jour- time. I was thanked for that. An announce- nalist. That is why not a single Liberal sena- ment was made a few days later at Incat. I tor was briefed on Incat’s dilemma, because Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 585 the details of the $30 million loan would, of tion, because a former Labor government necessity, have to come out. Here we have a bought, if I remember correctly, the Menoora state Labor Premier being absolutely treach- and the Kanimbla—second-hand vessels, yet erous to the workers of Incat by saying, ‘We again; the Labor Party have this penchant to support your product, but we are going to go buy overseas vessels that are rotten or, in this overseas and buy two second-hand European case, rusted—and after hundreds of millions ferries.’ Here we have a state Premier saying, of dollars had to be spent on fixing up the ‘My own product ain’t good enough. I am Manoora and Kanimbla and finally bringing not going to look around the rest of Australia them back online because we were commit- to see if Australia might be able to build me ted to them, unfortunately, there was no a ferry or two; instead, I am going to go longer any use for HMAS Jervis Bay. overseas.’ And, in spending the Tasmanian But, having said that, I led a delegation of taxpayers’ money overseas, he has the defence exporters to the United Kingdom audacity to go to the Australian government and during that time I fully supported and and the Australian taxpayer and say, ‘Please promoted Tasmanian and Australian product give us some money to help Incat, a com- and, indeed, HMAS Jervis Bay. On a number pany that I am not willing to support by my of occasions when I gave speeches I was own actions.’ What is most treacherous of all able to refer to the imagery of HMAS Jervis is that, when the Premier wrote back to the Bay steaming into Dili port during the East Prime Minister asking the Prime Minister to Timor situation. As a result of my represen- reconsider his position, he leaked that let- tations, and because of a good relationship ter—in fact, gave it to the media, if not be- that I believe I was able to develop with the fore the Prime Minister received it, at about UK Minister for Defence Procurement, Bar- the same time—and in it he had five hysteri- oness Symons, she came out to Australia and cal, false claims about the inadequacies of Tasmania and visited the Incat shipyard at Incat. my personal invitation. The Deepwater Proj- You cannot pretend to be the Premier of a ect in the United States, which Labor sena- state supporting an important icon industry tors would have no idea about, potentially like Incat on the one hand and then bagging provides a very big market for Incat, and I the product that it makes to try to score hosted a lunch for a delegation of those peo- cheap political points off the Prime Minister ple with the Incat proprietors to promote In- and the state Leader of the Opposition. Every cat. single Incat worker now knows that not only The facts are that I and this federal gov- has the Premier not bought the product that ernment have supplied every possible sup- they work so very hard on but also the Pre- port that we can to Incat. One thing that I mier has not given them an opportunity to will not accept is the Premier, Jim Bacon, build a bigger ferry—the Premier has not and now Senator O’Brien running around given them the opportunity of a livelihood seeking to make assertions about any diffi- that they deserve and that the Tasmanian culties that Incat has. Indeed, I understand government could have delivered to them. that just today they had to lay off or make There is some suggestion that somehow I redundant some more workers. It is no coin- and others may have betrayed Incat. Let us cidence that that occurred some four or five set the record absolutely straight on this: it days after the Premier made his treacherous was I, as Parliamentary Secretary to the announcement on the monohulls. It was then Minister for Defence, who announced the that Incat knew that there would be no pur- charter of the HMAS Jervis Bay, an Incat chase by the Tasmanian state Labor govern- product. ment. Of course, we now know that that was Senator O’Brien—Where is it now? locked in months before, and months before the Premier had the audacity to ask for a Senator ABETZ—That allowed Incat to joint approach to the Prime Minister to assist break out into the defence world and into the Incat. If he is genuinely supportive of Incat defence market. Senator O’Brien asks, and does not want this to be a political stunt, ‘Where is it now?’ That is a very good ques- 586 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 he has to answer the simple question: why, to 24 hours, it can get double the return on the this date, has not one single Liberal senator state government’s capital because you get from Tasmania been briefed on the Incat two trips per day instead of the one trip per situation? day that you get out of the monohulls. So Senator Mackay—Did you ask him to you have got double the capital cost and brief you? about a 150 per cent increase on the labour force required. Senator ABETZ—I was promised a briefing. I still have not received the briefing, Then we have Mr Bacon dining out and nor have any of my colleagues. More im- saying, ‘Guess what? The fares will be portantly, not a single Liberal—the alterna- cheaper by $5.’ Guess why they will be tive premier, for example—has been invited cheaper by $5? Because a meal will not be to go on this delegation to visit the Prime included. But, in a 10-hour trip, do you hon- Minister. We as a federal government have estly believe that people will not be wanting retained a very consistent line about bailing a meal? And guess what? They will be buy- out private enterprise. But the Premier, who ing a meal. Guess what? It will cost them rejects help for Saxon wood heaters, for Har- more than $5. So guess what? The trip across ris Scarfe, for Blue Ribbon, does a deal that Bass Strait will be more expensive because nobody knew about until it leaked out, finds of the Maritime Union of Australia. In case himself in an embarrassing position and then listeners are not aware of this, Jim Bacon is a seeks to assert that somehow it is the federal former Secretary of the Builders Labourers government’s fault. Federation in Tasmania. And of course the BLF and the MUA are soulmates; so you Incat should have been given the opportu- would be assured that the Premier would nity to develop the 112-metre vessel that the never do anything which might in any way proprietors of Incat believed would provide undermine the rorts that the MUA are on. an appropriate and quicker service. Let us look at the monohulls proposal. They are I do not mind if Senator O’Brien misrep- supposedly superfast ferries but, as you resents me—you get used to it—but when he know, Mr Acting Deputy President, they will misrepresents the Minister for Small Busi- take 10 hours to cross Bass Strait whereas ness and Tourism it is a very serious matter. Incat with their proposed route would have What Minister Hockey did, quite properly, taken only 4½ hours. So they would have when he was on the north-west coast of Tas- been super superfast ferries. What is more— mania was to indicate to the media what his and this is the nub of the situation—every- feedback had been in that particular area. He body in Tasmania knows that the Maritime fully acknowledges what the feedback would Union of Australia said to the Premier, have been, if he had been in Georgetown, ‘Don’t you dare allow the fast ferries made from the people of Bass that Michelle by Incat to go across Bass Strait because O’Byrne, the federal member for Bass, and guess what they might be able to do? They all the state Labor members have sold down might be able to do the double crossing the drain. Senator Watson, who lives close to within one 12-hour shift.’ Georgetown, knows exactly what the feeling in that community is. The feedback to Mr Indeed, one newspaper reporter who is Hockey would have been: you have got to quite knowledgeable in this area said there run with the catamaran proposal. would need to be a staff of 100 per mono- hull, whereas for the Incat ferry a staff of If Minister Hockey had listened to people only 30 would be required. And guess who on the east coast, that also would have been has to pay for the extra 70 staff members? the feedback. The particular interview that he All undoubtedly will have to be members of gave was simply on the basis of the feedback the Maritime Union before they are allowed that he had received on the north-west coast. to serve on this ship. And guess what? The I fully acknowledge that there are differing fare paying passengers and tourists will have views in Tasmania, but they are mainly on to support this. And, what is more, if you the north-west coast because they want to have an Incat that can do a double trip within Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 587 preserve and to double the service into De- Senator Mackay. I am sure that the Hobart vonport, and you cannot blame them for that. Mercury will not print that because of their This deal that Premier Bacon has made particular bias, but nevertheless it is very has been treacherous to the people of interesting to have that on the public record. Georgetown, to the tourism industry in the I thank Senator Mackay for that, and any north-east and east of Tasmania, to all of the other helpful interjections that she might subcontractors, their workers and their fami- have I will gladly accept. The important is- lies; and, indeed, to all of the Incat workers, sue on this is that Mr Bacon and the state who rely on the success of Incat to make a Labor government have sold out the workers living and to provide bread and butter on the of Incat, all of the subcontractors that rely on table for their families. Senator O’Brien, Incat and the tourism industry of north- who I understand—surprise! surprise!—is a eastern Tasmania and the east coast. former President of the Tasmanian Trades Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) and Labor Council, is not defending the (9.56 p.m.)—Thank you, Mr Acting Deputy workers of Tasmania. He is not defending the President Watson, for being here and for shipbuilders at Incat or the tourism operators taking the chair because strictly I should be in Georgetown. What he is defending is $200 up there. Somebody has done some clever million plus of Tasmanian taxpayers’ money rearranging in the back room. I would also going overseas to support workers in ship- like to thank Senator Calvert, who offered to yards across the seas—not even in Australia. sit in the chair while I spoke and then Sena- Mr Bacon may have had some credibility tor Abetz leapt in. So, Senator Calvert, thank if he had said, ‘I will definitely buy Austra- you very much. I want to note that we are lian,’ when he asked for Australian taxpayer just about at the six-month anniversary of the assistance. But, if his own local Tasmanian twin towers collapse in New York. As every- product is not good enough for him, if Aus- body in this chamber would know, I was in tralian product is not good enough for him New York at that time, and I want to person- and he wants to go overseas to buy—because ally thank the Senate for incorporating the of his actions leaving a shipbuilding firm contribution I was able to make to the debate floundering—why should the Australian tax- in this place at that time. It seemed to me to payer provide the bandaid for the wounds be useful at the six-month anniversary to that Mr Bacon has inflicted on Incat? The pick up some points from the experience I political fix on this was in fact set by Mr Ba- had at the time and, in particular, from the con when he, quite foolishly, made the sug- report I have produced mainly, I think, for gestion that he would not support Tasmanian myself about the time I had in New York product. representing this parliament. Senator Mackay—What did you say after Senator McGauran—I will read it. the election? You said, ‘We will pay.’ Senator Mackay—We will all read it. Senator ABETZ—Senator Mackay in- Senator CROWLEY—You are lucky; terjects, and she does so from the strength of you will get to hear it, Senator. First of all, I being the Opposition Whip and no longer an want to thank all of the people at the Austra- opposition frontbencher. Undoubtedly, cer- lian mission to the United Nations. The mis- tain people made judgments in relation to— sion allowed me to participate in my work Senator Mackay—By choice. there and at the UN. I had an extremely profitable time—I certainly learnt lots—and Senator ABETZ—‘By choice,’ she says, I had the opportunity to make a contribution as indeed Mr Kerr, undoubtedly by choice— in the United Nations General Assembly and Senator Mackay—That was different. then through the Third Committee. And I Senator ABETZ—He is different, is he? was able to put on a little of New York. Of Thank you for confirming that on the Han- course, the standout feature of my time there sard. So the assertions of Mr Kerr, the mem- was the collapse of the trade towers and the ber for Denison, that he voluntarily left the terrorist attack on September 11. frontbench are not true. Thank you for that, 588 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

I know absolutely that I will never be the the ceremony that I found very moving in- same again—though, like everybody else, to deed. a more or less extent, we go on living and we I visited Ground Zero on a couple of occa- try to accommodate and incorporate the hor- sions—not right into the heart of it, but ror of that day. One of the things that worries pretty close. I do not need to tell people of me a little is that we know very well the hor- the disturbing effect of that; in particular, the ror of the people who died in the trade tow- smell. I can best describe the smell as like ers and we know the horror of the people burning dirt, with a fire that was still burning who were lost in the aeroplanes, aeroplanes 10 weeks after the event. There were stories that were used as bombs, but I found it more in the weekend papers of people who ran than a little gruesome that aeroplanes and the through the clouds of dust that completely passengers in them were turned into human blanked out light and caused the suffocation bombs—a particularly horrifying element of and death of a number of people. In that rub- the whole shocking day. ble was concrete dust, asbestos dust, glass I also worry very much about the people dust and fibreglass and other particles. Peo- who are being killed in Afghanistan and the ple who inhaled that and had it on their skin people who are dying every day in Palestine and in their eyes all suffered from it then and in Israel. Because we do not get the and, no doubt, will suffer from it further into same kind of detailed coverage, we do not the future. know to worry or grieve about the terrorism I was particularly moved, through all of in other places. It is possible that we could this, because of the personal knowledge of not cope with that amount of grief, but I Andrew Knox from Adelaide. I was able to certainly think our response and our recog- attend a service in the Presbyterian church on nition of the horror of that terrorist attack Fifth Avenue which was held some time after should give us pause about the horror of ter- the event—five or six weeks after the towers rorism and the violence of war wherever it is came down. The employers of Andrew Knox happening. If ever there is a time to be trying spoke in glowing terms about this young to campaign to see that no more war is the man, indicating that he was certainly some- slogan that we live by, it is in the light of the one special and how tragic the loss of his events of September 11 and subsequently. Of young and wonderful life is. course, I include previous experiences, but I am particularly wanting to highlight what Turning to some other matters, I do not happened in September and now the six- wish to complain at all, but, on our first day month anniversary. of the official office business, I was given two telephones—a big one and a little one— I was joined in New York by Lou Lieber- and they each had different systems for giv- man, who was a member of parliament at the ing messages, getting messages and reading time, and his wife, Marge. I very much ap- messages. They had different passwords and preciated their presence and support while different security systems. So now I have we were all coping together immediately four new passwords and two telephones with after the disaster. We attended a very won- different systems coming and going. I cer- derful memorial service. The thing that tainly had to write it all down so that I knew struck me was the representation from so how to drive these systems. Then I got an- many religions and churches, including other password so that I would know where Muslim, Hebrew, Catholic, Episcopalian— to go to collect my mail. I must say that syn- which is the American equivalent of Angli- chronisation and simplification of passwords can—Hindu, Buddhist and Maori. Repre- would be a great asset to people other than sentatives of those religions all spoke and myself, but certainly for me too. also sang, and they sang extremely beauti- fully. I kept thinking, ‘If only the world One of the things I would like to put on would join in song, instead of throwing the record is that the staff at the mission are bombs at each other, what a much better extremely dedicated and hardworking. I place it would be.’ That was a dimension of could not speak too highly of them. They are very respectful of politicians and are much Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 589 more inclined to take their lead from us. I do through the system, and so on. We have an appreciate their respect for politicians but excellent reputation there. they are not readily able to tell us—much as I must say that old habits die hard. One they might be tempted—how to do things or night I left the United Nations at about 10 go about our business. But I certainly think o’clock, having sat through committees for the staff should be encouraged to presume most of the day, and walked home up First that all advice would be welcome, which is a Avenue. I thought: you have to be mad, different thing from directing us. Senator! Then I thought: no, it is just re- The trouble was that, after the twin towers membrance of times past in the Senate when came down, the work of the General Assem- you must stay sitting until 10 o’clock before bly was significantly and dramatically inter- you go home. I will come back to that later if rupted. The children’s summit was deferred, I get the chance. I must say that walking and the young interns, Sarah Hudson and along First Avenue at 10 o’clock at night was Brendan Grigg, and our youth representative, not an unhappy experience—quite the oppo- Kirsten Hagon, who arrived just before and site. just after the disaster, also had their opportu- One of the other things in recognition of nity to participate interrupted. I was particu- Australia’s participation and standing was larly involved with the third committee in the that Australia chaired the General Assembly UN mission; that is particularly concerned debate on the terrorism resolution, which with resolutions about CEDAW—the Con- happened very soon after the twin towers vention for the Elimination of All Forms of disaster. I think it is another mark of respect Discrimination Against Women—Beijing for the standing of Australia there. Plus Five and the status of women. The third committee was particularly assisted by Vic- I spoke and presented the Australian toria Walker from Ottawa and Peter Hayward statement on the rights of the child, on the from Geneva. They came over in recognition International Year of Volunteers, on the In- of the amount of work this committee does. ter-Parliamentary Union, and on the Olympic Truce resolutions, and I was very much as- The UN process was not new to me. I had sisted in that by David Stewart and by every some familiarity with it, so I could slip into member there. I cannot name them all, but I the work of the committee reasonably easily, would particularly like to acknowledge, on from meetings with JUSCANZ—Japan, the record, the work of all the people work- United States, Canada and New Zealand— ing in the Australian mission. They were and the western group meetings. These were fantastic, helpful and very generous with very good; we got a lot of work done and I their time. was able to participate, but I did not get the opportunity to do much or to meet much Parliaments and the UN may be the only with the countries in the G77 group, and that places in the world where they cannot keep is a real shame because the possibility for to time. Nobody in business, on the stock interchange and exchange was somewhat market, in schools, in sports, in libraries, in curtailed. public transport or in homes would say, ‘We’d like to finish by this Friday but it The committees worked very hard. In might indeed be Friday week—and, more particular I would like to commend Robyn excitingly, it might be Friday fortnight.’ It Mudie, who was approached by other dele- seems to me that one of the issues the UN gations for advice and assistance which was, needs to address is that of being a little more of course, all willingly given and was one of timely. I think it is very sweet of me to stand the contributing factors to Australia’s excel- up in this place and offer some suggestions lent standing in the committee system and in to the United Nations—I do not think it is the UN mission altogether. I could watch the going to get taken too seriously—but I do representatives of the mission working with think it is important to acknowledge that it is other country colleagues and, on some occa- extremely expensive for each day the United sions, taking up the case for other coun- Nations sits. Seriously, in an organisation tries—by suggestion, ways of negotiating that is pressed for money and finance, I be- 590 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 lieve it is important to be able to say, ‘This I did a few other things besides the UN; I resolution will be completed on Friday after- visited the Bronx with some old friends and noon,’ and there should be ways in which some new American friends. I went to see a that can be arrived at. drug project and to meet people who work It is important, because one of the things there. The visit was a very good opportunity that people appreciated was the debate about to see more than Manhattan and to learn of terrorism being effective, quick and signifi- the generosity and goodness of the people cant. What a lot of people would really ap- there—a different part of the riches of New preciate is less talk and more action from the York. So much of New York is only what United Nations. They do not mind the talk happens in Manhattan. It does not sometimes but, if the talk is the only action, that is not reflect what goes on in Brooklyn, let alone sufficient. If we did not have the United Na- what happens in the Bronx; and yet the tions, I think it would have to be designed at Bronx is only five minutes away from the this time. There are ways in which it is clear heart of Manhattan. that the challenges confronting the world I visited UNICEF and UNIFEM. I was cannot be met by countries standing alone, or delighted to say hello again to my old friends even by countries working together. There Carol Bellamy and Noeleen Heyzer, both needs to be some kind of formal framework remarkable women heading those organisa- for that to happen. We have that in the tions. I was terribly proud the other morning United Nations. I think it is particularly im- to be hosting the 10th UNIFEM breakfast in portant that we build on the good work of the South Australia, where the numbers in atten- UN and the prospects for better international dance probably made us the largest UNIFEM legislation and action rather than trying to breakfast in Australia. I am extremely proud design a new system or ignoring the UN al- of the women and men who assisted but, together. principally, I am proud of the women who I was concerned about accountability. One attended that breakfast on behalf of of the things that interests me is the main- UNIFEM and women in development around streaming of women’s issues, particularly the the world. language used—and it is used by the Howard I also went to UNFPA, and that was a bit government. It is a concern for me because I of a worry because I was assured at the time do not think sufficient accountability has that America would honour their contribu- followed the allocation of money for women tion of payments to fund UNFPA. Since and women’s services in the various depart- January, the US has withdrawn its funding ments. It is certainly a matter of considerable contribution to UNFPA. I think this is an concern in the UN, and I think it is a matter absolute tragedy. Europe, as I understand it, of concern within the Howard government. I has increased its funding so the UNFPA will would like to see more accountability. be able to continue its absolutely vital work. The women’s budget, which was one But prior to September 11—‘9-11’ as it is mechanism by which accountability was called—the United States was dragging the shown in this country, has been cancelled by chain on its contribution, hundreds of mil- the Howard government. In fact, just when lions of dollars, to the UN. In fact, after the Australia is deleting this, it is being intro- disaster of September 11, that money was duced by other countries taking their lead suddenly forthcoming when the United from Australia and wanting to say how ab- States realised how important the UN was to solutely fantastic this initiative is—only to its campaign and for assistance at that time. I find that our country has deleted it. But it is a find it a bit cynical and a bit disappointing critical thing. If we are going to mainstream that we cannot have an ongoing commitment policies and services for women, then we to the UN. It is also very disappointing that absolutely must have the documentation to UNFPA—a family planning association ensure that the allocations are known and can helping the poorest women around the be defended or can be argued for if they are world—would not get the expected funding not sufficient. from the United States. I sincerely hope that Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 591 we can campaign and see America change its women do. One could name Afghanistan on mind on that allocation of its funding. this point. I think it is very important that One of the things that was a kind of com- Australia realises its contribution is not only fort was the fact that the Australian Austrade for Australia but also for others. mission had moved out of the World Trade Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) Center a couple of years ago. Austrade, the (10.16 p.m.)—On 10 November last year the Australian consul and the UN mission are all Liberal-National coalition won the federal in one building and that makes for efficien- election. That is a matter of historical fact. cies. It also makes for easy exchange of in- However, whilst they may have won the formation and support—indeed, the consul, election, they certainly did not win the hearts Austrade and the mission worked very and minds of the Australian people. Cer- closely to assist Australians discomfited, tainly it has been my experience over the last distressed and shockingly upset after Sep- couple of months as I talked to many people tember 11. They put their efforts together in the electorate—many who voted for this and did a lot of wonderful work. I particu- government—that the clear message I am larly thank the people involved: John Dauth, receiving is that they feel they have been let the ambassador to the Australian mission; down. It is true: they supported this govern- Ken Allen, the consul general; and Austrade, ment’s position on border protection. But headed by Geoff Gray. Those people worked they are coming to realise, as the events un- tirelessly for and on behalf of Australia. I fold and as the facts come out, that they were want to thank all those other people I have used and abused by the government of this not named who worked in the mission, who country during that election campaign. We have been extremely generous to me and have a population in this country at the mo- who made my time there so fruitful and pro- ment that is deeply disillusioned with the ductive. political process because it is quite clear that Australia have always been very active in what people were told during that campaign the UN and we are very well placed to push was not the truth. This government clearly for change in that organisation. I am not the cannot handle the truth, and it certainly first to say that and I will not be the last, but avoided telling the truth on quite a number of I hope it can be the case. Given all the work important issues. done by Australia in the mission, and not too In his address opening the 40th Parliament long ago—for instance, contributing dra- on 12 February, the Governor-General set matically and greatly to the design of the out, as is the tradition, the government’s optional protocol to the Convention on the views on its record and its proposals for the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination next term of government. A quick glance at Against Women—I am particularly disap- that speech indicates that the government pointed that the Howard government finds it believes that issues such as security, pros- is unable to ratify that optional protocol. perity, a thriving business sector, families, One argument is that Australian women health care, welfare reform, flexibility and do not need it. People who understand what reward in the workplace, innovation, tech- these conventions are know that it is not nec- nology and higher education are all impor- essarily just for our use but for the use of tant issues to be addressed in the coming women around the world. When we ratify three years. They are the headings of each of these conventions to pass them into exis- the key sections of the Governor-General’s tence, other countries may be able to benefit speech. But when you analyse what the Gov- from them. We do not have to look only at ernor-General in his speech said on behalf of what is for our benefit. It is a right that we the government on those various issues and actually established under the previous Labor put what was said against the facts, you see a government, particularly wonderful legisla- completely contradictory position. Firstly, let tion to offer antidiscrimination protection in me deal with the issue of security. The Gov- this country. We may not need the optional ernor-General in his speech referred to the protocol, but other countries and other government’s commitment to: 592 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

... ensure that Australia maintains a strong and campaign, that sort of appeal to prejudice, flexible Defence Force, able to act in the nation’s which appeals to people’s fears. We all re- interest whatever circumstances may arise and in member the full-page ads in the last few days support of the principles of democratic freedom of the campaign and the identical posters that that Australians value so highly. appeared at the polling booths echoing the Senator McGauran—There’s nothing Prime Minister’s words: ‘We will decide wrong with that. who shall come to this country.’ Senator FORSHAW—I agree—very no- Senator McGauran—That’s right. ble words; very noble sentiments. The prob- Senator FORSHAW—The senator oppo- lem, of course, is that what we now know, site interjects, ‘That’s right.’ Of course, the what has now emerged, is that the former message that was being conveyed in that Minister for Defence, Mr Reith, treated those campaign was that these were a group of very commitments with absolute contempt. I people that should be kept out because of pay great tribute to the professionalism, the their race or because of where they came commitment and the courage of our service from. That was the real message that was men and women. But what we have seen being put out. We all remember the Prime unfold in recent estimates hearings and what Minister’s own views on another race ques- is continuing to unfold day by day is the du- tion some years ago in respect of Asian mi- plicity of people within the government, gration. As I said, those issues will come to within the ministry and the former ministry, be discussed in much greater detail as the who have by design or by neglect—or days and weeks go by. probably by both—deceived the Australian people. This government also talked through the Governor-General’s address about a thriving Of course, I am referring here to what is business sector. You cannot get a bigger joke known as the ‘children overboard’ incident. than that at the moment—a thriving business Admiral Barrie, in his appearance before the sector. Let us look at the examples of this Senate estimates committee, said that when it thriving business sector. Ansett, one of the came to Defence he was Defence with a great icons amongst Australian companies, capital D. This is government with a capital has just collapsed and Ansett’s 16,000-plus D, but the D stands for deception. I do not employees have lost their jobs. This started wish to canvass that issue any more tonight under the previous government when the because, quite clearly, as the days and the then and still Minister for Transport and Re- weeks pass, more and more will come to gional Services, Mr Anderson, was asleep on light. More and more the duplicity and the the watch. He was being told that Ansett was deceit of the government’s campaign with in danger of collapsing, that one of the two respect to that issue will be exposed. And if major domestic and international airlines in there is one thing Australian people do not this country was about to go up the spout. like it is being misled and lied to. But he sat on his hands and did nothing, de- I recall one particular aspect of the federal spite all the warnings. Now we no longer election campaign, and that was the low have Ansett in operation. As I said, it had level that some candidates for the coalition 16,000-plus employees. The ultimate figure stooped to in order to try and win their seats. will be much greater than 16,000 because In the seat of Richmond one of the most no- there are all those businesses that depended torious incidents occurred when the National upon Ansett’s operations. I caught the plane Party candidate, now the Minister for Chil- down here from Sydney on Sunday night dren and Youth Affairs, had circulated leaf- and, as I am sure is the experience of all lets that said to the citizens of the electorate senators who land at or depart from Mascot that if they voted for the Labor Party they airport, you drive past the Ansett terminal were voting to have Afghan refugees, illegal and it is all in darkness. You look at it and immigrants, come to reside in large numbers you think, ‘How could we have allowed this in caravan parks in that electorate. You can- to happen? How could any government have not get any lower than that sort of scurrilous allowed this to happen?’ Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 593

The coalition seek to lecture us about ADJOURNMENT some of the problems that have occurred in The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! It the past. I do not deny some of the issues that being 10.30 p.m., I propose the question: occurred with state governments in South Australia and Western Australia with respect That the Senate do now adjourn. to the state banks. But, if you are going to Health: Coeliac Disease throw stones, Senator McGauran and your Senator BUCKLAND (South Australia) colleagues— (10.30 p.m.)—I would like to speak on a The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Address medical condition that is little known but is the chair, please. one that we should recognise, particularly as tomorrow is the start of Coeliac Week. As Senator FORSHAW—then, through you, medical research progresses, we find there is Madam Deputy President, you have got to a greater awareness of a greater number of accept responsibility for what has happened diseases, the symptoms of those diseases and to one of the major companies in this coun- the treatment of those diseases. One of the try, Ansett. It no longer exists. And it was lesser-known diseases is coeliac disease, a not the government that in the end sought to condition that renders the sufferer intolerant try and save it; it was the trade union move- to dietary gluten. Without becoming too ment—the trade union movement that you technical in medical terms—something I am people hate so much that you were never not capable of doing—it is a disease that af- prepared to lift a finger to try and help save fects the cells of the small bowel. The cells that airline. are damaged and the capacity of the body to I can go on. One.Tel collapsed, with 1,600 absorb nutrients and minerals from food is employees losing their jobs. Why? Because seriously depleted. Sufferers of the disease of the regulator. This is the government that are intolerant to some major food sources claim that they are presiding over a thriving such as wheat, rye, barley, triticale and business sector—their words, a thriving oats—somewhat distressful for the person business sector—and one of the major Inter- who likes a beer after work or a fine malt net provider companies in this country just whisky after dinner. I guess that is the reason disappears, goes into liquidation, with bil- why men are less rigid with the dietary re- lions of dollars of debt and employees losing strictions of the disease than women once their jobs. What does this government do? they have been diagnosed. Nothing. The union movement again stepped The disease was first recognised by a in and picked up the pieces and ultimately Dutch doctor in 1888 through his examina- achieved the full payout of employee enti- tion of children, but it was not until 1949 that tlements for the employees of One.Tel. it was diagnosed when a doctor was operat- HIH can be mentioned. Again, where was ing on a patient for another reason. It had this government when this all happened? If also been noticed during the war years that you want to claim that your economic poli- people who were thin and suffering intestinal cies are producing a great thriving business pains and cramps began to put on weight and sector, that you are the government that is have a reduced incidence of the cramps and managing this economy and creating the en- pains because of their changed diets brought vironment for businesses to survive, why is it about by their circumstances. Medical re- that one of the largest insurance companies search and observations by medical practi- in this country collapses? tioners have led to the recognition that coe- Senator Mackay—The regulator. liac disease is more common than previously Senator FORSHAW—As Senator Mac- thought. There are no firm statistics, but it is kay says, the regulatory authority, APRA, believed thousands of Australians suffer was asleep on the job. The minister was from it, many undiagnosed. The prevalence asleep on the job. of it could be as high as one in 500 and some commentators suggest it could be much more Debate interrupted. than this. Indeed, I understand that in New 594 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Zealand researchers believe it could be as tion is the incidence of it—how many people high as one in 200. suffer from it, taking into consideration that Coeliacs, even with the changing of their many people will remain undiagnosed. It is diets, are never cured—the disease remains said that coeliac disease is a genetically ac- with them. With removal of gluten from the quired disease and in some cases an envi- diet, children and most adults return to being ronmental one. Some research has been done perfectly normal and will remain normal as to locate a gene for this disease. There have long as they adhere to the diet. Despite been some successful findings but they have greater awareness of the disease, it is still not been definitive and have been done over- often slow to be detected because it has such seas. Once this research provides a definitive a wide ranging effect on the body. It can be result, then screening can be done at an early the cause of diarrhoea and constipation, fa- age. tigue, weakness and lethargy. It can lead to This early screening would prevent many miscarriages or infertility, low blood calcium of the associated outcomes of this disease, levels with muscle spasms, altered mental such as the early onset of osteoporosis, alertness, bone and joint pains, bowel tu- anaemia, type 1 diabetes and those others I mours and type 1 diabetes. In children it can referred to earlier. There is an absolute need lead to lack of proper development and be- at this time for money to be made available havioural problems. for proper research into this disease and the Currently in Australia very little research treatment of it. This week, from tomorrow, is being conducted in this area. There are 13 March through to 20 March, is National small groups within hospitals that have done Coeliac Week. It is an appropriate time for some research, but most of it gets done over- the government to give due consideration to seas. The Coeliac Society in Australia has providing funding for research into this de- had very few resources to fund research. bilitating disease. They find it hard enough raising funds to Parliament House: Child Care keep the association going so that they can Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital Ter- provide information and support to sufferers. ritory) (10.38 p.m.)—Yesterday, on 11 In Western Australia, the society received a March, a survey on the child-care needs of grant of $50,000 and in New South Wales workers in Parliament House was issued by the Department of Health gave the society the Joint House Department to the parlia- $3,000. Other states have received no fund- mentary departments. The survey forms are ing at all. This funding does not go very far. to be completed and sent to the consultants At the moment the staff of the society are engaged for this exercise, Families at Work, spending a lot of their time trying to get by 22 March. It is important to understand funding—time taken away from providing that this has not happened overnight. In fact, the support that they are giving. They are this survey is a culmination of years of ef- raising some funding through subscriptions fort, of progress followed by disappointment to their newsletter. Their subscriptions have to date. This time, however, there is a posi- increased considerably over the years to tive momentum and I would like to acknowl- 11,500 nationally, which is indicative of the edge the work of the Joint House Depart- increase of coeliac cases in Australia. In ment, and of Peter Crowe in particular, in the New South Wales alone there are over 4,000 lead-up to the issuing of this child-care sur- subscribers. vey. I also acknowledge the work of my col- Five to six years ago, the Coeliac Society league Senator Crossin and the cross-party, used to run out of the back room of some- staff and press gallery committee that has one’s house. Today they are experiencing been crucial to lobbying for effecting change problems with the transition from providing to date, as well as the Labor status of women support to what used to be a small group to caucus committee which is also supporting what has now become quite a large group the child care in Parliament House proposal. and continues to grow. One of the first things This survey has followed an information that needs to be researched with this condi- circular of 12 February which had the pur- Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 595 pose of alerting those who work in Parlia- to at last gaining child-care facilities within ment House of the coming child-care survey. Parliament House were disappointed that the This circular was sent to departments to be original intention to provide a copy of the circulated to all staff, and presumably to survey to all occupants of Parliament House members of the press gallery, parliamentari- had been changed. But, if it is thought neces- ans and their staff and contractors engaged in sary to supplement the individual approach the building—whatever sort of work they do. to ensure a greater response rate, by all On 8 March, last Friday, all occupants of means let us have a ‘belt and braces’ ap- Parliament House were emailed with survey proach and let us go to town with hard cop- contact details for each department. One per- ies, email copies, as many copies of the sur- son only in each of the five parliamentary vey as we can possibly make available to departments has been designated as the per- everyone in this building. son from whom the survey forms are avail- Another issue which the Labor status of able. This came as some surprise, because women committee has found frustrating is the information circular of 12 February that no differentiation was made in the sur- stated that the survey was to be distributed to vey between the type of child care people all Parliament House occupants. It did go out would use. In particular, there was no dis- on time, on 11 March, but in the form of tinction between ‘at’ Parliament House or multiple copies to the five contact people, ‘near’ Parliament House. I think it is very one in each department. important to say from the outset that when I I believe that these arrangements for talk about child care in Parliament House I picking up the survey forms are likely to de- mean in Parliament House. Workplace based ter people from doing so. As a result of that child care is meaningful if it is in the work- view, I wrote to Peter Crowe of the Joint place. I think it needs to be understood that House Department asking that the survey that is how we hope to make positive steps to form be sent as an attachment to an email to change, in a positive way, the lifestyles of all occupants of Parliament House, as was people with child-care responsibilities. It the notification of the departmental contacts. needs to be in this building. So far, Peter One of the aims of the surveys—we need to Crowe reports that approximately 3,000 re- be really clear about this—is that it should be sponses have been received, indicating that completed by all staff of Parliament House, the email message has been received. A fur- not only those with current child care needs. ther information circular is to be distributed However, the response I received read: today and another reminder later this week to The decision to provide hard copies of the survey encourage maximum response. was taken on advice from the consultants and in I will be very surprised indeed if the sur- consideration of the fact that many of the occu- vey results do not show that there is substan- pants of Parliament House (particularly those who tial need, demand and support for the provi- work in the basement) do not have access to dedi- sion of a child-care facility in Parliament cated computers. Additional quantities of the form and envelope have been provided to the House. After all, nearly seven years ago, the Press Gallery, to Security and to West Block to 1995 Joint House Department child-care sur- cater for those who are not located close to the vey found substantial demand from the oc- designated distribution points... To have sent the cupants of Parliament House for approxi- survey form as an attachment would have bogged mately 65 to 75 full-time day care places. the system. For a centre to be viable, a minimum of 44 I think it is worth noting the contradiction in full-time equivalent places need to be filled. this response in relation to the initial email Obviously, the need for places has grown but obviously only those with email would since 1995. Locally, there are long waiting know the contact points for picking up the lists at child-care community and work based survey anyway. It is also worth noting that at centres. No places are available for the under least one collection point ran out of surveys two years age group and demand for both at one stage. Many of us in the parliament full-time and occasional care has increased. who have supported the survey as a first step So now, unlike the 1995 position, no existing 596 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002 capacity exists in this area. For workers with would need special approval of additional family responsibilities based at Parliament funds for its structure. It could be taken into House, their long and irregular hours of work account that over the years of this debate, place extra demands which would be allevi- funds have been approved for child-care fa- ated by the availability of child care and after cilities, but they have not been used. Mis- school hours care here in Parliament House. chievous opponents of the proposal will ar- I spoke here last August of the demand, gue that if the facility must be built in Par- dating back to 1981, for the provision of liament House, it should be built, say, on the child care for this new and permanent par- second floor—obviously where the children liament. Everyone then and since then has would have no outdoor area. Another pro- appeared to support the principle that child posal that I have heard of is that, if the facil- care must be available to the workers of Par- ity must be built within Parliament House, liament House. Unfortunately, the question the most suitable area would be the pool and of where such a facility should be provided gym area. This would be a great way to cre- has caused disunity and division. Madam ate dissension and discord and to ensure President and others, who in 1989 bitterly many more years of inaction on the proposal. opposed the proposed siting of the child-care No doubt some will use the idea that it is centre in the grounds of the old House of politicians feathering their own nest and will Representatives gardens, went to some want to drive that sentiment home in an ef- lengths to put on record their support for the fort to block this. Contrary to that, there are principle of having a child-care centre for many thousands of staff in this building, and parliament. In fact, all of the opposition ex- they are constituents of mine. Many of them pressed has historically always been only on live in the ACT or in the surrounding region the grounds of the unsuitability of any of the and they deserve—like every person working proposed positions. in a large workplace—access to quality workplace based child care. It is time for this decision to be made and acted upon quickly. We should decide now We should not stoop to cheap point scor- that a child-care centre will be provided ing and games. This issue is too important. within Parliament House. I believe a suitable The desirability of providing a child-care area is available and has already been identi- centre for the parliament has been argued fied within Parliament House. It is an area and accepted for over 20 years. That child which is little used and which will require care is an essential worker entitlement has fewer modifications than others that have also been long accepted. I call on senators, been proposed. This is an extensive area at all parliamentarians, the Joint House De- the front of the building near the staff can- partment, other departments and particularly teen. It presently contains two snooker ta- the presiding officers to support and work in bles, a pool table, and two table tennis tables, good faith towards enabling the provision of all of which could be separately located in child care here in Parliament House. As a staff amenity areas throughout the building. first step, let us ensure that the Joint House It already has toilets and plumbing and an child-care survey receives widespread distri- outside fenced area. bution and support. I urge all occupants of Parliament House to complete the survey. It will be important to ensure that the claims on this area for a child-care centre, Senate adjourned at 10.48 p.m. and its suitability, are not jeopardised by DOCUMENTS rushing through what I understand are ap- Tabling provals for upgrades to the staff canteen and non-members bar area that are currently The following government documents pending. If they were rushed through it were tabled: would probably preclude the opportunity that Administrative Review Council—Report exists to place the child-care centre in that for 2000-01. area. We realise that, for the child-care proj- ect to go ahead, the capital works budget Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 597

Anglo-Australian Telescope Board—An- Treaties— glo-Australian Observatory—Report for Bilateral— 2000-01. Text, together with national interest Australia-Indonesia Institute—Report for analysis and regulation impact 2000-01. statement— Australian Centre for International Agri- Agreement between the Govern- cultural Research—Report for 2000-01— ment of Australia and the Gov- Erratum. ernment of the United States of Australian Submarine Corporation Pty America on Social Security, done Limited—Report for 2000-01. at Canberra on 27 September 2001 Bundanon Trust—Report for 2000-01. Exchange of Letters, done at Can- Christmas Island Casino Surveillance berra on 27 September–25 Octo- Authority—Report for 2000-01. ber 2001, constituting an Agree- Commonwealth Grants Commission—Re- ment between the Government of port—State revenue sharing relativities— Australia and the Government of 2002 update. New Zealand amending the Agreement between the Govern- Copyright Agency Limited—Report for ment of Australia and the Gov- 2000-01. ernment of New Zealand Estab- Local Government (Financial Assistance) lishing a System for the Devel- Act 1995—National Office of Local Gov- opment of Joint Food Standards of ernment—Report for 2000-01 on the op- 1995. eration of the Act. Protocol, done at Canberra on 27 National Australia Day Council—Report September 2001, amending the for 2000-01. Convention between the Govern- National Environment Protection Council ment of Australia and the Gov- ernment of the United States of and NEPC Service Corporation—Report America for the Avoidance of for 2000-01. Double Taxation and the Preven- Native Title Act 1993—Native title repre- tion of Fiscal Evasion with Re- sentative bodies—Reports for 2000-01— spect to Taxes on Income, done at Cape York Land Council. Sydney on 6 August 1982. Gurang Land Council (Aboriginal Cor- Text, together with national interest poration). analysis— Agreement between Australia and Kimberley Land Council. Uruguay on the Promotion and Mirimbiak Nations Aboriginal Corpo- Protection of Investments, done at ration. Punta del Este, Uruguay, on 3 Ngaanyatjarra Council (Aboriginal September 2001. Corporation). Agreement between the Com- Queensland South Representative Body monwealth of Australia and the Aboriginal Corporation. Kingdom of the Netherlands on Mutual Administrative Assistance Official Establishments Trust—Report for for the proper application of 2000-01. Customs law and for the preven- Productivity Commission—Report for tion, investigation and combating 2000-01. of Customs offences, done at The Hague on 24 October 2001. Remuneration Tribunal—Report for 2000- 01. Agreement between the Govern- ment of Australia and the Gov- ScreenSound Australia—Report for 2000- ernment of the Arab Republic of 01 Egypt on the Promotion and Pro- tection of Investments, done at Cairo on 3 May 2001. 598 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

Agreement between the Govern- International Convention for the Sup- ment of Australia and the Gov- pression of Terrorist Bombings, done at ernment of the Kyrgyz Republic New York on 15 December 1997. concerning the Status of Austra- Pacific Agreement on Closer Economic lian Forces in the Kyrgyz Repub- Relations (PACER), done at Nauru on lic, done at Bishkek on 14 Febru- 18 August 2001. ary 2002. Tabling Agreement between the Govern- ment of Australia and the Gov- The following documents were tabled by ernment of the Republic of France the Clerk: on Employment of Dependants of Broadcasting Services Act—Broadcasting Agents of Official Missions of Services (Events) Notice No. 1 of 1994 one of the two States in the other (Amendment No. 3 of 2001). State, done at Adelaide on 2 No- Sydney Airport Curfew Act—Dispensa- vember 2001. tions granted under section 20—Dispensa- Exchange of Notes Amending the tion No. 2/02 [2 dispensations]. Agreement on Social Security between the Government of Aus- Indexed Lists of Files tralia and the Government of New The following documents were tabled Zealand, done at Canberra on 28 pursuant to the order of the Senate of 30 May March 2001. 1996, as amended on 3 December 1998: Multilateral—Text, together with national Indexed lists of departmental and agency interest analysis— files for the period 1 July to 31 December Convention on Jurisdiction, Applicable 2001—Statements of compliance— Law, Recognition, Enforcement And Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry port- Co-operation in respect of Parental Re- folio. sponsibility and Measures for the Pro- Commonwealth Ombudsman. tection of Children, done at The Hague on 19 October 1996. Convention on the Recognition of Qualifications Concerning Higher Edu- cation in the European Region, done at Lisbon on 11 April 1997. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 599

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE The following answers to questions were circulated: Imports: Motor Vehicles (Question No. 58) Senator Allison asked the Minister representing the Treasurer—With reference to import tariffs on 4-wheel drive (4WD) vehicles, upon notice, on 12 February 2002: (1) How many 4WD vehicles are currently being imported into Australia. (2) What percentage of 4WD vehicles are used in primary production or primarily for business pur- poses. (3) How many 4WD vehicles have been imported into Australia in each of the past 5 years. (4) How many second-hand 4WD vehicles have been imported into Australia during each of the past 5 years. (5) How many of those used imported vehicles ran on: (a) diesel; (b) gas; and (c) petrol. (6) How many 4WD vehicles imported into Australia in the past 5 years have not attracted the luxury vehicle tariff/tax. (7) What was the total import tariff/tax revenue derived during the 2000-01 financial year from 4WD vehicles. (8) How much of that revenue is derived from the luxury vehicle tariff/tax. (9) What is the total import tariff/tax revenue forgone as a result of imposing only a 5 per cent instead of the 15 per cent tariff/tax which other passenger vehicles attract. (10) What is the projected revenue loss for the 2001-02 and 2002-03 financial years because of that discrepancy. (11) What is the policy justification for the differential tariff/tax rates between 4WD and passenger vehicles. Senator Minchin—The Minister for Industry, Tourism and Resources has provided the following answer to the honourable senator’s question: (1) Vehicle import figures for the 2001 calendar year are not yet available. International merchandise trade statistics collected by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) show that in the year 2000 there were 83,254 new motor vehicles entered as four wheel drives or off road vehicles. (2) The Commonwealth does not hold figures on the primary use of four wheel drive and off road vehicles. (3) ABS statistics show the following numbers of new four wheel drive and off road vehicles were imported into Australia during the past five years: Year Number 1996 73,607 1997 93,236 1998 123,525 1999 111,513 2000 83,254 (4) A total of 18,806 second hand 4WD vehicles have been imported in the past five years as follows: Year Number* 1997 1,435 1998 2,368 1999 4,741 2000 5,290 2001 4,972 Source: Department of Transport and Regional Services *These figures do not include personal imports. (5) Figures are not available on the types of fuel used by second hand 4WD vehicles that have been imported into Australia. 600 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

(6) There is no luxury vehicle tariff. However, all vehicles (including 4WD vehicles) priced over the luxury car tax threshold attract luxury car tax (LCT) in respect of the value of the vehicle in ex- cess of the LCT threshold. The LCT threshold is the car depreciation limit that applies under Sub- division 42-B of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 (currently $55,134). The Government does not publish figures on the numbers of four wheel drive and off road vehicles not subject to LCT. (7) The Government does not publish disaggregated revenue figures from the GST or LCT. It is there- fore not possible to calculate the total tax/tariff revenue derived during the 2000-01 financial year from sales of four wheel drive and off road vehicles. Estimates of tariff revenue can be derived from ABS international merchandise trade statistics, which show that the 83,254 new four wheel drive and off road vehicles entered in the year 2000 had a combined customs value of $2,194.6 million. Within this group, 70,228 vehicles were entered as goods-carrying vehicles, at a 5 per cent rate of duty, generating an estimated $95.1 million in duty revenue, based on a customs value of $1,900.9 million. The remaining 13,026 vehicles were entered as passenger motor vehi- cles, at a 15 per cent rate of duty, generating an estimated $44.1 million in tariff revenue, based on a customs value of $293.7 million. (8) See (7). (9) Assuming purchase decisions and pricing were not affected, applying a rate of 15 per cent to all four wheel drive and off road vehicles entered in the year 2000 would have generated a further $190.1 million tariff revenue. (10) The Government does not publish forecasts of four wheel drive and off road vehicle imports. Con- sequently, revenue estimates for these goods for the 2001-02 and 2002-03 financial years can not be calculated. (11) Different import duty rates exist for motor vehicles principally designed for the transport of people and motor vehicles designed for the transport of goods. In general, vehicles designed to carry peo- ple have a tariff rate of 15 per cent, while vehicles for the carriage of goods have a 5 per cent rate of duty. Four wheel drive vehicles fit into one or the other of these categories depending on their construction. The tariff setting for passenger vehicles has for some time been at a different rate to that applying to goods carrying or commercial vehicles. The lower duty rate on commercial vehicles reflects the relatively high business usage of this class of vehicle and the fact that only a small percentage of Australian made vehicles fall into this category. Communications: Casualties of Telstra (Question No. 82) Senator Harris asked the Minister for Communications, Information Technology and the Arts, upon notice, on 12 February 2002: (1) Why did the Minister’s office take from 14 June 2000 until 14 November 2000 to initially respond to a freedom of information (FOI) request by Kenneth Ivory, in relation to ‘Casualties of Telstra’ (COT) related matters. (2) What action is the Minister going to take to rectify the fact that the department’s delay has, whether intentionally or inadvertently, resulted in Mr Ivory not having FOI documents and not being in a position to present his case in January 2001 to the Supreme Court of Queensland. (3) Is the Minister aware that this FOI delay potentially had the same effect as in the five COT cases listed in Schedule A and Schedule B of the Senate working paper of 1997, whose matters also re- lated to breaches of FOI by Telstra. (4) What action will the Minister take to have Telstra, or the relevant department, settle Mr Ivory’s damages immediately. (5) Why were Mr Ivory’s (Solar-Mesh) COT-related matters not settled prior to the Telstra ‘T2’ float, under the same terms and conditions as the five COT cases listed in Schedule A of the Senate committee’s working paper of 1997. (6) Will Mr Ivory’s damages claim immediately be resolved, under no less than the same terms and conditions as the five resolved COT cases listed in Schedule A that were settled just before the T2 float; if not, why not. Tuesday, 12 March 2002 SENATE 601

(7) (a) How many people with COT-related issues has Telstra had arrested, or attempted to have ar- rested, under a mental health warrant, peace and good behaviour warrant or criminal warrant. (8) Was the purpose of that action to assist Telstra to assassinate the character of the COTs and to conceal the truth about systemic faults, to comply with Freehill, Hollingdale and Page’s ‘COT case strategy’, dated 10 September 1993. (9) How many of these COT-related matters have already been settled. (10) Against how many people with COT-related issues has Telstra and/or its lawyers prevailed on federal or state police to falsify police records to assassinate those people’s character and reputa- tion to assist in concealing the truth about Telstra’s defective network, by use of corporate thug- gery and neglect of duty of care. (11) Were any Telstra employees (and/or their agents) involved in having police records and/or mental health reports falsified to cause injury to COT-related people; if so, who were they. (12) What are the names of the police officers, medical practitioners, or others (and/or their agents) involved in having COTs defamed, intimidated, harassed or wrongfully arrested and who have been obtaining either mental health warrants, bogus psychiatric reports or bogus psychologists as- sessments made, based solely on information from Telstra or its agents, or who were involved in apprehension warrants being wrongfully obtained against COTs. (13) (a) Were any persons from within or associated with the Minister’s office involved in the actions described in (12); if so, who were they; and (b) were any of these warrants ever condoned by the Minister. (14) Were any Telstra employees (and/or their agents) involved in wrongfully obtaining warrants; if so, who were they. (15) Did Telstra’s former chairman, Mr David Hoare, have any conflict of interest. (16) What other directorships has Mr David Hoare held from 1990 to date. (17) Did any conflict of interest occur when Mr Stephen Mead, while seconded from Mallesons Ste- phen Jaques to Telstra, became in January 1996 a partner in Mallesons Stephen Jaques, while re- maining on secondment to Telstra. (18) On what specific date did Mr Stephen Mead cease being a seconded employee of Telstra. (19) Is there any outstanding Telstra documentation that has not been provided under FOI and discov- ery processes; if so: (a) why has there been a delay in providing that information; and (b) when can Mr Ivory expect to receive that outstanding information, whether professional legal privilege has previously been claimed or not. (20) Are there any outstanding documents under FOI and non-party disclosure in the Minister’s of- fices; if so, when can Mr Ivory expect to receive this outstanding information, whether profes- sional legal privilege has been previously claimed or not. (21) Did Telstra employee, Mr Armstrong, attempt to have Mr Ivory sign a Telstra deed of settlement in January or February 2001, to walk away from his claims against Telstra and Mr Mead. (22) Was the Minister aware that Telstra was attempting to have Mr Ivory commit illegal and unau- thorised acts had he signed the settlement deed. (23) Has the Minister condoned unconscionable conduct by Telstra’s authorised officer in his attempt to silence Mr Ivory’s claims while Mr Ivory was unrepresented. (24) Why did Telstra refuse to pay for Mr Ivory to seek independent legal representation to advise Mr Ivory of Telstra’s proposed settlement deed terms that Telstra tried to force Mr Ivory into signing without time or money to seek advice before Telstra withdrew the settlement offer. (25) What action will be taken under administrative law to prevent such mismanagement of Telstra continuing to unjustly sabotage Mr Ivory’s life and livelihood. (26) (a) Why did Telstra take from 11 May 1994 until 1 June 1994 to test Mr Ivory’s 1800 prefix com- plaint. (27) (a) Is it Telstra’s policy that, when any line/number fault is reported it is logged into Telstra’s fault reporting system; (b) is it correct that a standard set of remote tests are immediately conducted in the first instance; and (c) if the fault cannot be rectified or found remotely, is a field technician 602 SENATE Tuesday, 12 March 2002

dispatched to attend the premises; if so, why was this process not followed with Mr Ivory’s 1800 fault complaint. (28) Why did Telstra only test the 1800 fault reported by Mr Ivory after the fault had been rectified at the exchange on the 31 May 1994. (29) Did Telstra fabricate and falsify its records and documentation to conceal the 1800 prefix systemic fault. (30) How many 1800 subscribers did Telstra have in September 1993. (31) Why has Telstra withheld ‘as obviously irrelevant’ information consistent with the possibility of proving innocence. Senator Alston—The answer to the honourable senator’s question is as follows: (1) The reasons for delay in responding to Mr Ivory’s Freedom of Information Request (FOI) request in relation to ‘Casualties of Telstra’ (COT) related matters fell into two parts: (i) delay caused by the management of his correspondence through the Department of Commu- nications, Information Technology and the Arts’ Parliamentary Correspondence Manage- ment System (PCMS); and (ii) other delays in identifying the documents covered by the request, including attempts to clar- ify the scope of the request, responding to related correspondence concerning litigation, and consulting with a third party regarding personal information. (2) I am unable to comment on Mr Ivory’s legal action in the Supreme Court of Queensland. In rela- tion to PCMS related delays, all FOI requests are now allocated to the Legal Group in PCMS for action to ensure that requests that originate in this way are promptly assessed. (3) I am not able to comment on the potential effects of the FOI delay in relation to Mr Ivory. (4) Telstra has been a corporation subject to Australia’s corporations law (now the Corporations Act 2001) since 1991. Consistent with the arrangement for Government Business Enterprises, Telstra’s Board and man- agement are responsible for the day to day running of Telstra’s operations. The Government’s role is mainly to establish the legislative framework within which all telecommunications service pro- viders (including Telstra) must operate. The Minister for Communications, Information Technol- ogy and the Arts does not have specific legislative power to direct Telstra to settle compensation claims. Nor would it be appropriate to do so. Mr Ivory has no damages claim against the Depart- ment of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts. (5) to (12) Neither I nor the Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts hold the information requested by Mr Ivory. Mr Ivory has a number of options to obtain information, if it exists, from Telstra, including asking Telstra for the information, legal action through the courts or seeking information under Freedom of Information (FOI) legislation. Should Mr Ivory have evidence of unlawful activities, he should bring this to the attention of the police. If he has concerns about the conduct of Telstra he has the option of asking the Common- wealth Ombudsman to investigate the matter. If Mr Ivory believes he is entitled to receive com- pensation or damages under statute law or common law, he can take legal action through the courts. (13) (a) No persons from within or associated with my office were involved in the actions described in Question 12. (b) Given the response to 13(a) this question is not applicable. (14) to (19) See answer to question (5). (20) I am not aware of any outstanding documents. (21) See answer to question (5). (22) No. Should Mr Ivory have evidence of unlawful activities, he should bring this to the attention of the police. If he has concerns about the conduct of Telstra he has the option of asking the Com- monwealth Ombudsman to investigate the matter. (23) No. (24) to (31) See answer to question (5).