Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

Mike Prescott Field Notes Interview with Mike Prescott for the Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

Collector: Camilla Ammirati (TAUNY) Recording Title: Mike Prescott (7.16.15) Format: Audio Digital Recording Length: 00:51:02 Machine Model used: Roland R-05 Wave/MP3 Recorder

Interview date: July 16, 2015 Time: 1:30pm Place of interview: The TAUNY Center in Canton, NY Setting and Circumstance: Mike was glad to make a visit to Canton, so he met Roque Murray of WPBS and me at The TAUNY Center. We talked in the classroom, which made for a somewhat echo-y recording.

Additional Notes:

I first met Mike at the Raquette River Blueway Corridor group meeting the spring before I started on this project. He’s an Adirondack Guide and a historian of the river, and he has written a fair bit about the river’s history for the Adirondack Almanac. While he came to my attention as someone who shares our interest in the history of the dams rather than someone who was involved in or affected by their building, talking with him revealed his own personal connection to the dams’ history. As a child, he went to see the construction in progress, and it clearly stuck with him. He came back to the dams through his later interest in paddling and otherwise exploring the outdoors in the region. One particularly striking idea that came up in our discussion is that his main interest in the dams is, in a sense, an interest in the history of the dams that weren’t built. He has devoted a lot of attention not only to what ended up happening with the dams but to earlier plans for damming the river that did not come to fruition, and to the idea of the landscape that would have resulted had things gone a little differently.

As someone with so much experience both researching and paddling the Raquette River, Mike also can tell its story in a very insightful way. In light of his perspective, I wanted to speak with him about his own connection to the dams, and he also made a natural choice for someone to work with Roque Murray on the WPBS documentary. Mike has been working closely with Roque on writing and narrating that documentary, and I spoke with him in the middle of that process.

Page 1 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

Mike Prescott Topic Log Prepared by Camilla Ammirati Interview Date: 7.15.15 Interview Length: 51:03

00:00: Introductions. Mike Prescott retired from being a high school principal and took up paddling, started recreating historical paddles, and got interested in the Raquette River when someone asked him to paddle it. Found it to be the state’s best kept secret. Had been reluctant, imagining concrete reservoirs, then found them to be beautiful lakes instead. 01:36: Background. Born in 1948 in Rochester, grew up in Gouverneur, went to college and into the military, and settled in a school district near Lake George. 02:43: How much waterways were part of his life growing up. Grew up on a lake in Gouverneur area, so canoeing nothing new but did later take up a different kind of canoe--the solo canoe, which gives more flexibility. In retirement, started working with Adirondack Cooperative Loon Program, which put him on lakes all over southern Adirondacks. But wanted to get into other waters, so started in 2005 by recreating George Washington Sears’ Rushton canoe trip from Old Forge to Paul Smith’s. 04:46: Memories of dams being built on Raquette, going on a Sunday drive with his family to look at the projects. His dad was fascinated with the power project because he had always worked construction and was interested in how things were built. Father also repaired earth-moving equipment, may have done that for the dams among other things. 07:46: His interest now is not in the dams that were built but in the dams that weren’t built--history of dams and proposals from 1800s on. Dams proposed largely for flood control. Early surveys of rivers--“Power Possibilities of the Raquette River” and others. 1900/1910 extensive engineering surveys proposing containment dams, but these were abandoned for prospect of hydroelectric power based on dams built at the power source/where the water drops, which makes much more sense. He likes to see older survey reports and reflect on where dams would have been and how the whole geography of the area would have been different had they gone ahead. Elaborates on example of Tupper Lake--everything now at water level would have been 30+ feet under. 11:55: Fascinated by this whole forgotten history, thinking about what might have been. True on the Hudson river too. The more efficient use of dams and smaller reservoirs make more sense and better preserve the beauty of the Adirondacks. 14:10: Describes maps he brought in. One shows containment dams planned on what he calls Upper Raquette--from Piercefield to Blue Mountain Lake. One would have been at “Setting Pole Dam,” which was first built by loggers in the 1870s. Failed efforts to build a dam in what’s now the “Raquette Pond” area, and abandoned plans to build it near where the Wild Center is now. 19:35: Second map shows what it would have looked like today had those dams been constructed. 20:19: Talks about a plan there had been in the 1840s-50s to connect the Raquette to the Hudson via canal and railroads, and reasons it didn’t materialize. Idea revived in 1870s, working with Verplanck Colvin. They actually started building it, but then stopped because of economic recession and objections Potsdam lumbermen (including Henry Hewitt of Hewittville)’s objections, as their business would go to Glens Falls instead. 24:26: How he learned all this. Taught history for many years and would always ask people questions about areas he paddled. So, talking to people and looking into things from there. Sources at Adirondack Museum, Wild Center, libraries and universities. He likes to solve the puzzle.

Page 2 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

25:54: Area just north of Raquette River in Saranac Basin referred to a while back as the Times Square of the North. 10 rivers flow within a five-mile diameter, and the rivers were like highways for people coming to the Adirondacks in the late 1800s. 28:49: More on memories from when the dams were being built, what area was like in 50s and 60s. Remembers black kettles with flames in them marking areas to stay away from. 30:05: Importance of dams to area: providing power for company that owned them, economic boost, employment, incoming industry afterwards to take advantage of power. 31:17: More on being impressed by how the lakes look natural. Recreational opportunities, canoe carries around the dams. Things seem well-regulated. 33:23: Has only positive things to say about Brookfield and how they manage the land, trails, access, safety. 34:42: Compares Raquette to other paddling areas. It has something for everyone. Makes note of how in the Adirondacks you don’t “portage” but “carry.” 37:00: Describes how he breaks the river down into four sections based on different characteristics. Like “Times Square of the North,” got the idea from Donaldson. The first section, Blue Mountain Lake to Tupper, is the “trunk-line”--people would bring their trunks and take them in the guide boat for a long stay. From Tupper Lake to Carry Falls is “The Wild River”--only one dam, much like its original features, rapids, drops, rugged, less regulated by dams. From Carry Falls to Norwood- Norfolk: the “Workhorse River”--where much logging used to happen and where most of the dams are located today. Last section from Norwood-Norfolk to Akwesasne: “Ah.na.wa'te'” [meaning "Rapid River"], to remind us that native peoples used this river as a corridor, hunting ground, etc., long before white settlement. Over a summer paddling with Mary Jane Watson on the Raquette, wondered “how do I tell the story of this river,” needed a handle/framework, and started to see it as these very distinct sections along the river. 42:00: He’s wearing a hat with a licensed guide tag. He’s a licensed for flat water, hiking, and camping. Got licensed in 2005. Describes what it entails to get licensed--learning about first-aid, map and compass reading, etc., taking a test. Affiliated with New York State Guide's Association. Could do all the learning on your own, mostly common sense. Has come across some old-timers, but generally just people with similar interests. Both people independently interested and people who’ve had that kind of experience or appreciation in their family history. Also some “flat-landers,” people who come in from elsewhere and fall in love with the area. 48:03: Explains his tattoos--name tags for all the Newfoundland dogs he and his wife have had. They do take dogs out in their canoes. 50:32: Encourages people to get out and appreciate the river.

Page 3 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

Mike Prescott Transcript Interview with Mike Prescott: Experience with the Raquette River Dams Interviewer: Camilla Ammirati Interview Date: July 15, 2015 Interview Location: The TAUNY Center Transcribed by: Scribie Transcription Service Interview File Name: Mike Prescott (7.16.15) Interview Length: 00:51:02 Notes: Mike wished to make a visit to the area, so he came to Canton to be interviewed at The TAUNY Center. Roque Murray from Watertown PBS filmed the interview. We conducted the interview in the TAUNY classroom, and there is a bit of echoing and background noise.

00:00 Camilla Ammirati: All right. Great, so I'm Camilla Ammirati here at the TAUNY Center with Mike Prescott to talk about your relationship to the Raquette River dams and your interest in them. To get us started... It's about one o'clock on July 15th. To get us started could you just introduce yourself.

00:19 Mike Prescott: Well, I'm Mike Prescott, former high school principal, and retired with nothing really to do and decided to start paddling, and so I started paddling the Northern Forest Canoe Trail, recreating some historical paddles, and then someone asked me would I paddle the Raquette River, and so I said, reluctantly at the time, yes, and I found that it's, probably New York State's best kept secret.

00:52 CA: Why were you reluctant at the time?

00:55 MP: Well I had this preconceived... I was reluctant at the time because I had this preconceived idea that reservoirs meant concrete California-style reservoirs, and I had heard that there were several reservoirs created by dams and that these were all along the Raquette River. And as it turned out there are several reservoirs, but those reservoirs are really kind of nice lakes today, so my preconceived idea fell short.

01:32 CA: For a little more background, can you tell me when and where you were born.

01:36 MP: Yeah, I was born in 1948 in Rochester, New York, a war baby, and grew up in Gouverneur, New York, which isn't far from here. And then my career led me to college and military, and I eventually settled in a school district on the other side of the Adirondacks near Lake George, called 'North Warren Central School District', in Chestertown, New York, and retired from there.

02:08 CA: What brought your family to Gouverneur?

02:10 MP: Good question, I really don't know the answer to that. I can't tell you.

02:18 CA: About when was that, or how old were you?

02:20 MP: I was about six when we moved... We moved into a farm near Antwerp, New York, and

Page 4 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project then moved to the Gouverneur area, and I grew up in Gouverneur, and then moved to Watertown and finished my high school in Watertown, and went to Albany to go to college, and the rest is history.

02:43 CA: So you said you got into paddling once you'd retired, how much would you say the waterways around the region were part of your life growing up?

02:53 MP: Well, I did grow up on a lake in the Gouverneur area, so canoeing was nothing new. What was new is the type of canoe I use, which is called a 'solo canoe', and it's paddled with a single-bladed paddle, kind of like a kayak paddle, and you can go where you wanna go, you don't have to have a partner to go with you. And so consequently, that style of canoeing, very similar to kayaking, allows all sorts of flexibility. But when I retired I started working with a program called the 'Adirondack Cooperative Loon Program', and that put me on lakes all over the Southern Adirondacks, but they were the same lakes. I had surveyed those lakes weekly, checking on the bandit birds that were there, and I had really kind of wanted to get into other waters, and so my first real long trip was to recreate George Washington Sears' trip from Old Forge to Paul Smith's and back in 1883, and he used a Russian canoe to do that, and so here we are in Canton in the home of John Rushton.

04:16 CA: Yeah. What inspired you to do that historical recreation?

04:21 MP: That one was... I'd read a book about a young woman and her husband doing that route. They recreated it in the 1970s, 1980s, and I just thought it was a really nice paddle and wanted to do it, so I did it.

04:42 CA: When was it that you did that?

04:44 MP: 2005.

04:46 CA: So I guess you would've been pretty little when the dams were being built around Colton, and I know work has been done on those dams over the years, various dams up and down the river since, do you have any memories of when in the '50s and '60s or even... Well I guess you wouldn't so much remember the late '40s, but you know memories of when that was all happening?

05:08 MP: Actually, I do have memories of those dams, not real good ones, not in the sense of being very vivid ones, but I do remember going on a Sunday drive with my family, and we would come to Massena or we would come to one of the other dams that was being constructed, and take a look at it. My father was fascinated with the power project along the Raquette River. I don't remember what specific dams we visited, but I do remember it.

05:40 CA: And that would be the plan... The destination was to go see that.

05:43 MP: Yeah, the destination was to go visit one of these dams that was under construction.

05:47 CA: So about how old were you when that was?

05:50 MP: Oh, I had to be seven, eight-years-old.

Page 5 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

05:53 CA: Did you go take a picnic or something like that? [chuckle]

05:57 MP: I can't recall, I really don't remember.

06:02 CA: Do you know why your dad was so interested?

06:04 MP: Well, my father was interested because he always worked construction. He was a steel man, an iron worker, and so he was always interested in how things were built. And so I remember coming to the dams. I remember going to various projects all over upper New York state, taking a look at how it was built. And so I was too young to understand that, but that was it, why he wanted to do that.

06:41 CA: Did he actually work on any construction here?

06:43 MP: Not that I know of, but there were so many spin-off industries and so many spin-off things, where I know my father did a lot of repairing of earth-moving equipment. I don't know if he actually repaired earth-moving equipment for the dams or not, but they all rippled together, so my guess is, yeah, he did, but I'm not sure.

07:12 CA: Sure, and he was continuing to do that kind of work as you were growing up?

07:16 MP: Yes, he was. He would go from place to place looking at jobs and working various jobs, and he'd come home on weekends.

07:28 CA: So he could explain to you... When you're looking at, he could explain what they were doing and...

07:32 MP: Well, he could of explained that to me, and he probably did.

[laughter]

07:36 MP: I was young enough, so I wasn't paying much attention.

07:39 CA: Right. [chuckle] Do you feel like that has carried through in your interest now?

07:46 MP: Well, maybe. My interest now, basically though, is not the dams that were built, but the dams that weren't built. And there's a whole history of dams and proposals, starting in 1800s and in the early 1900s, of dams that were proposed but not constructed, and the reason why they were proposed primarily was flood control, and people downstream wanted to make sure that the spring waters would not inundate their towns and communities, and so the State of New York really went into, overdrive really. There were several surveys of rivers called 'Power Possibilities of the Raquette River', and 'Power Possibilities of the Hudson River', 'Power Possibilities of the Moose River'. And around 1900 and 1910, there were extensive engineering surveys done on all of these rivers, and they proposed what I call 'containment dams', and these dams were to hold water back in the spring, and then slowly release it so that factories using direct water power could use it during the dryer late summer, early fall.

Page 6 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

09:13 MP: Now these factories would've been factories that would of had, like a water wheel, or they would have had a water turbine, right at the factory site. And so, you need that continual water, but all of a sudden there was a new thing on the horizon, and that was hydroelectric power. And so these containment dams were quickly abandoned, because it made a lot more sense to build the dam at the power source, and at the power source means, where the water drops. And so consequently, the Raquette River has almost 21 dams on it, where hydroelectric power is generated, and it's generated at that specific site. Now it's all tied together in a grid, but it originally wasn't, but it was a much more efficient use of power than direct water would've been to a gristmill, a water wheel someplace.

10:21 MP: And so, holding water back and containing it in one large reservoir didn't make an awful lot of sense anymore because you could not contain the water in a number of smaller reservoirs, and the topper of it all was, you could use that same water over and over and over again, and in the case of the Raquette River, 20-some times, and generate power each time, so it makes an awful not more sense. And so these containment dams weren't built, but they're fascinating. And I've run across several of these survey reports, and it's fun to say, "Oh, here's where the dam was gonna be, and had they built it, this whole geography of this area would've changed." The dam at Tupper Lake for example would've raised... Everything at water level that you see there now would've been up 35 to 50 feet higher than it is today, and so it would've been a huge, huge lake. And some of the literature that calls it the 'Magnificent Lake", and it sure would've been. It would've been a huge, huge lake. One reservoir was built this way, and that was the Sacandaga Reservoir. And that was a containment reservoir built just when hydropower was coming in, so they adapt it to hydropower, but that's kind of the exception in New York State.

11:55 CA: What do you think it is about... Thinking about the dams that weren't built that's especially interesting to you?

12:00 MP: I find that the dams that weren't built have a whole history that everyone has forgotten, and I'm one of these people who kind of likes to think about what it might have been. When I drive through an area and look at the river, or the body of water, and see that, that would've been flooded right and we would've had a whole different Adirondacks, had those dams... Those large containment dams been built. And there was other rivers that were looked at for having all sorts of dams, the Hudson River was one. And luckily, there was legislation passed that forbid the construction of dams on the Hudson River. And again, it's fascinating to know that in the 1960s, same time period, there were other plans for other rivers and they didn't materialize. But the Raquette River did materialize, and we take it all for granted today. It's been long enough so that a few people remember it, but most people say, "Oh that body of water has always been there," and it hasn't been.

13:24 CA: Why do you say 'luckily', about the Hudson not being dammed?

13:28 MP: Well, I'm very much of an environmentalist, and I really think that we have lots of dams, and you regulate the flow of those dams, you end up having huge mud flats, and if you've ever been around huge mud flats, they're kind of stinky and messy and icky. The natural beauty of the Adirondacks would not have been preserved, and I think the much more efficient use of smaller dams, smaller reservoirs, makes a lot more sense.

Page 7 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

14:10 CA: Thinking about a couple of those plans that didn't come to be, would you mind just describing again, you have these couple of maps that you brought in, describing what each of them shows?

14:20 MP: Well, one of those maps shows all the various containment dams that were planned on what I call the 'Upper Raquette River', and the Upper Raquette River, in my definition, is pretty much from the Piercefield... The Piercefield Dam area, way up to Blue Mountain Lake. The Raquette River, we kind of forget, has a huge... Is really long, it's the second longest river in New York State, Hudson River being the longest. Raquette River is 174 miles, and the upper part of it travels to the Adirondack Park, and it really starts to move on the lake, goes to Raquette Lake, then to Fork Head Lake, then to Long Lake, and eventually to Tupper Lake, and that's when we begin to look at the river and dams along it. But there's a whole 40 miles of river that we can't forget about, when we're talking about dams, but that's an area that is very scenic, and very nice area to paddle.

15:45 CA: So this map focuses on that...

15:46 MP: That area... These maps focus on the those lakes, and the dams that were proposed on those lakes, that again, weren't constructed but they were proposed, and what would've happened, it was it just held back all of this melt water, especially the spring melt water, that would of have been released gradually during the late summer, early fall. And so, there was a dam gonna be on Maule Lake, there was gonna be another dam on Raquette Lake, it was gonna be the largest dam on Tupper Lake. Some of the side areas... There were several other dams that they were going to build. The second map shows the very largest one was at Tupper Lake, and at Tupper Lake there was actually four or five different proposals; one of them would have been a dam at, what we call 'Setting Pole Dam' today, and the Setting Pole Dam has kind of an interesting history in that, Potsdam loggers are the ones that first built that dam back in the 1870s. And the reason why they wanted to build that dam was to take advantage of spring runoff, and so that the logs would be on the Raquette River in Tupper Lake, they'd break the dam apart and then the logs would all flow down towards Potsdam to the sawmills, but when they did that, they built a huge dam for the day, and it only lasted one year because the next spring it washed out, and they had large floods in the Potsdam area.

17:32 MP: So, they were planning to build a dam there, in the 1870s, and they eventually built one but it was much lower, but in 1907 they were planning to build an even higher one, and in that area... If that had been built, that dam would have flooded a lot of lower... What's called lower Tupper Lake or Faust. And that was already beginning to be an industrial area, sawmills were there. It's the area called 'Raquette Pond' today. The Oval Wood Dish Company was constructed there, there was a railroad terminus. So that would have kind of wrecked that part of the economy, and so they said, "Okay, we'll build it in the area between Raquette Pond and Tupper Lake." And there's a marsh there, and the problem with that building there was that they never could find a solid bottom. They were looking for stone, out-croppings of rock, to secure the dam. And they bored down through that area, close to 100 feet and could not find a good anchoring spot for the dam.

18:50 MP: So that made them move it again, and so the proposal was to put the dam up near where the Wild Center is located today. And in fact, if you go to the Wild Center, go down to their observation platform, right down by the oxbow, right down by the river, you can just look to your right and you can see the two hills where they were gonna span this dam across, and that was the

Page 8 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project site that they were gonna use. That was brought up in 1907 and again in 1916, and they didn't build it because of the very rapid advancement of hydropower, and so it wasn't built.

19:35 CA: And this other map that you brought in, can you describe what that shows?

19:39 MP: Well that shows what it would've looked like today, had we had that actually been constructed. What I did with those maps is to put the various locations, the proposed locations of the dams, and mark those, and then what the water level would have looked like, and what would have been flooded out and non-existent today. It was just a more modern version of the 1907 map, and it just was a little easier for people to see it and say, "Oh, this is what you're talking about."

20:19 CA: Right. You mentioned also... So there's a plan, or I had heard that there was a plan to, at some point, to connect the Raquette into the Hudson?

20:30 MP: Yes, there was.

20:31 CA: Can you say a little about that?

20:34 MP: In the 1850s, there was a fellow by the name of Farrand Benedict, and Benedict was right on the cusp of canal building and he... First plan was to build a canal all the way diagonally across the Adirondack from Old Forge to Saranac Lake, and to connect each end with short railroads, and what that would've been is goods, especially mining materials and logs, would've been on these canal boats, then they would've had to transfer onto railroad, then back on to canal boats. And that was basically the only option of the day to get mining materials and logs out of the Adirondacks and get finished goods into the Adirondacks.

21:31 MP: His timing wasn't real good, because in the 1840s there was a severe recession in the United States, and so money was not available for him, so that kind of went on the back burner. And then it came up again in the 1850s, because he recognized that, "Oh, if we take logs out of the Upper Raquette River, and send them to Glens Falls, it would be beneficial for Glens Falls' saw mills, and they'd get more money because the logs going to Potsdam were going to the Canadian market, it wasn't quite as viable. So his proposal was to build a short canal, to connect the Raquette watershed, and the Hudson River watershed. And if you go up to Long Lake today, and you take a look at the very northern end of Long Lake, you can see, kind of a shallow valley, and basically it would've been like a mile-long canal that would've gone from Long Lake into some of the Upper Hudson River lakes, and everything would have gone in that direction.

22:48 MP: That idea didn't materialize in the 1850s, because he actually had some personal tragedy in his life; his wife became very sick and so he kind of abandoned the plan. But it came up again, in the 1870s. And by this time he was working with the New York State surveyor, Verplanck Colvin, and between Colvin's report, and Benedict's report in 1874, both of them same year, the idea was revived, and everyone thought it was great, and they actually started building it. If you fly over that area today, and look down, you can see where this canal was actually started to be constructed.

23:34 MP: Now the Potsdam lumbermen were not happy with this idea, and so there was several times, when they approached the New York State's legislature, especially a fellow by the name of Henry Hewitt. Hewittville, just about in Potsdam, that's his claim to fame. And he wasn't happy

Page 9 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project with this idea because it meant all of these logs that normally go to Potsdam would be going to Glens Falls, so that was one problem; and the other problem was, again economically, 1873 was a disastrous time in US history for a economic recession. In fact, until the 1930s, the 1870 recession/depression was called "The Great Depression", and so economically it was not the time to build a canal and so it just never happened.

24:26 CA: With all of this... So you're really knowledgeable about the history of these dams, can you say a little about just how you've come to learn so much about it, like what kind of... Through talking with people, through archival research, what kinds of methods...

24:40 MP: Well I came about learning about these dams, by way of... Basically by way of talking with people and I'm a historian. I didn't mention this earlier, but I taught history for many, many years. And one of the things that... When I paddle an area or when I look in an area, I wanna know what was there, what am I looking at? And so I ask people, one of the persons I asked when I was dealing with the Raquette River, was Mary Jane Watson, and Mary Jane would say, "Oh, do you know about this?" or "Oh, do you know about that?" And so that would just lead me into looking at something else. And so I began as one of these people who says, "I just need to know something more." And so I have good sources now at the Adirondack Museum and good sources at the Wild Center, fairly good sources with other libraries and universities along the way. And it's just become a great big puzzle, and I like to solve the puzzle.

25:54 CA: [chuckle] That's great. With what you're talking about with the possible Hudson connection plan, would that have been... You mentioned earlier that all these rivers up in this area would be referred to as the 'Times Square of... ' What was it? "The Times Square of the North'?

26:12 MP: 'The Times Square of the North'.

26:13 CA: Would that be around the same time?

26:14 MP: Yes. People coming into the Adirondacks in the late 1800s only had one option, well, two actually, that they could come up to a close area by railroad, and then from there it was either overland by stagecoach or traveling on the rivers. In fact, the early Raquette River quarter project idea was the... That rivers were the highways, and the area around Saranac Lake, which is adjacent to the Raquette River and the other watershed that is right there, was an area that all sorts of guides would bring their clients to hunt fish, and the Raquette of course being... The upper part of the Raquette being one of these destinations, and people would come in for a month to hunt or to fish. And there weren't game regulations then, so you could hunt anytime, and you could fish anytime, and so consequently they did. And you traveled from one place to another by boat, by either guide- boat or by canoe, and so the area of... Just to the north of the Raquette River in the Saranac Basin became the area called the 'Times Square of the North'. And actually, when you take a look at that, there are 10 rivers that flow, pretty much from... Like a five-mile diameter... Radius, and they flow in all different directions, and so it's a natural place to travel the rivers, 'cause there weren't roads.

28:20 CA: Do you know if some particular person coined that term?

28:25 MP: That term, I first came across reading it in Donaldson's 'History of the Adirondacks'. He probably stole it from someone else.

Page 10 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

[chuckle]

28:39 MP: A lot of theft of ideas that he had around that. So, that's all I know about that.

28:49 CA: Going back to the memories growing up and going to see the dams, could you say a little more about just what this area was like in the 50s and 60s, if you remember? So the towns being different, or different people coming in or anything...

29:05 MP: Well again, I just remember that, we'd all pile into a car, usually the neighbor's involved, and we'd end up going to East Sutton, and in those days we had these, black kind of kettles, that had a little flame in them, and they were to mark areas you were supposed to stay away from, and I just remember seeing these little black round kettles all around, and I was fascinated that all of these big heavy equipment was driving all over the place. Of course, on Sundays they weren't, because in those days you didn't do much work on Sundays. But it was a fascinating area, and I just don't remember much more about that.

30:05 CA: Fair enough. Could you say a little about just what the importance of the dams and the hydroelectric facilities are to the area?

30:19 MP: I think the importance of those dams, is one, it provides a great deal of power for whatever company happened to own 'em at the time, and when they were being constructed they provided a great economic boost to the area; a lot of people being employed, they were spending money. And consequently, after the construction, it brought a lot of industry into the area, because people wanna take advantage of the relatively cheap power, so I think it had a real, real tremendous effect on the area. It's a gradual effect, but it's had a great effect.

31:09 CA: Does anything stand out about the group of dams that were built in Colton in the '50s, and how they... The kind of impact that they had?

31:17 MP: Well, the area around Colton is, to be honest, an area that I really don't know much about. I was very pleasantly surprised when I paddled that area to see how today you wouldn't know that those aren't natural lakes. The only thing that gives it away is towards the end of them, you can see the dam, and then you see the power house, and you have to carry around them. But really... It's like lake country, it's just one lake after another, after another, after another. It's, I think, an area of recreation, and especially of recreation that people just do not take advantage of; there's fishing, birding, canoeing, hiking, all sorts of activities that I really think more people should be taking advantage of it. And the dams... My understanding is that when you get regulation... When every dam has to have federal regulations, has to pass a series of federal regulations to be re-licensed, and those regulations say that carries have to be put around the dams so that you can go from one dam to the other, they also say there has to be boat access to the reservoirs. And then there's probably... And then there's environmental things that they have to follow. So it's really pretty well regulated.

33:16 CA: So would you say your impression of how... So it's Brookfield managing the land around it?

33:23 MP: I have nothing but positive things to say about any of the owners, Brookfield being

Page 11 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project one... Is that what it's called today? It's changed a couple of times, and last time I paddled on the Raquette was a few years ago, so it could have changed by this time. But I found that they've been very cooperative, Brookfield has and whoever else; very well-marked trails, safety is considered. There was one dam down near... Below Potsdam that I was really concerned about, because there was no warning, and when Brookfield acquired that dam, first thing they did was put the orange markers across the dam saying that there's a dam coming up; and second thing they did was to, kind of re-do the carry trail so that you weren't right at the lip of the dam when you pulled out. And if the water was coming down fast and furious, and very high water, that could've been a dangerous spot, and they've changed that. So, nothing but good things to say.

34:42 CA: Compared to other... Since you've done a lot of paddling around the region, how does the Raquette stand in terms of how dangerous it is or how difficult it is to paddle it?

34:51 MP: Well again, the Raquette River has something for everyone. There are parts of the Raquette River that are just long, lazy, slow, meandering river, that's just great. There's also a part of the Raquette River that is extremely fierce rapids and a couple of really nice drops. I don't paddle those, but some people do. And it's a very exciting river, a river that has something for everyone. And I found that most of the river is very easy to paddle. A lot of carries, you gotta carry around those dams but... Oh by the way, in the Adirondacks, you don't portage, you carry. Every place else, when you get out and have to move from one spot to another, you portage, but not in the Adirondacks, you carry.

36:03 CA: Have you known that all along, or did you get told that at some point?

36:06 MP: Actually I did know that all the way along. Having grown up on the edge of the Adirondacks on a small lake, I had heard the word 'carry' in reference to... Like portage, ever since I was little. And I was quite surprised the first time I was with a group of boy scouts, and we were going from one place to another, and all of the other scouts kept calling it a portage, and I said, "No, no, that's a carry." So, yeah I did know that, but most other people don't.

36:45 CA: Yeah. Do you know why? I've heard different stories on that.

36:51 MP: I really don't know, I have no idea.

36:54 CA: That's just how it is?

36:55 MP: Yep, just how it is.

37:00 CA: [chuckle] I have a couple of other questions. You had mentioned to me at some point that, you in thinking about the river kind of break it down into different sections, could you just describe what they are and where they are?

37:13 MP: Yeah, I broke the river down, in my mind, into four different sections, and I did that primarily because the river has such an extensive history. It's, as I mentioned, 174 miles long, and very different characteristics in different areas. Up in the part of the Adirondacks where I come from, the river is meandering, and it's slow moving in most cases, and it's the highway, that's how people got in and out of the Adirondacks, and I refer to that section as the 'trunk-line'. And it's not

Page 12 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project original with me, by any means, it's, again, a Donaldson idea. But you came to the Adirondacks and you brought your trunk, because you didn't come just to stay for the weekend, you came to stay two or three weeks or a month or all summer, and you brought your trunk and you put it in the guide boat and you... And the guide took it to wherever you were going, and so that's why I refer to that as the trunk-line, and that's the section from Blue Mountain Lake down to Tupper Lake.

38:30 MP: Then from Tupper Lake, down to Carry Falls Reservoir, I call that 'The Wild River', and so Wild River because there's only one dam there, and it's pretty much the way it would've been. The dam regulates a little bit of flow, but it's wild; there are rapids, a couple of the nice drops, Woody Falls, Jamestown Falls. It is really a rugged area, and so that's the Wild River. And then from Carry Falls down to Norwood-Norfolk area, I call that the 'Workhorse River', and I call it the Workhorse River for two reasons; one, in the old days, it was the area where lots of logging took place, and horses brought those logs to the banking grounds next to the river, and then in the spring the logs would be put into the river. And then the second reason is because that's the area where most of the dams are located today, and so it's a Workhorse River, it produces horsepower.

39:46 MP: And then the last section, from about Norwood-Norfolk down to Akwesasne, I refer to it as the 'Ah.na.wa'te' [meaning "Rapid River"], and that is primarily, because we kind of forget the native peoples used this river as a corridor, as a hunting ground, long before whites ever came, and we don't give them enough recognition.

40:22 CA: Was there a particular point at which it kind of settled out that way for you, or is that sort of that come to your mind over a lot of time?

40:28 MP: Well it wasn't... It didn't settle onto me in one particular point, but over one summer. Mary Jane Watson and I were paddling different sections of the river, and I was saying to her, "How do I tell the story of this river, because there is so much here?" And at that point, I knew a fraction of what I know now and there's still a lot more to be learned, and so I was trying to break it down so that it became a manageable area that I could describe, I could show photographs of, and be able to say, "Okay this is the river that I'm talking about, this is The Wild River. These are the rapids here. This is an example of the Workhorse River. Here's a photograph of a dam being constructed. This is the area that might be the 'Ah.na.wa'te,'" because I now have access to an artist who says, "Okay, this is what the native peoples looked like along the river, this is their activities." But I needed some handle, and so it kind of developed over a period of two or three weeks, or maybe a month or two, and the more I talked to about it the more I began to see that, to me, there were very specific areas along the river.

42:00 CA: The... This is sort of different kind of question, but I noticed the licensed guide tag on your hat, so you are a licensed river guide?

42:07 MP: Well, no, I'm not a licensed river guide, there's a difference.

[laughter]

42:11 MP: Licensed guides, in New York State, if you wanna take people on trips, you have to have a New York City guide's license. If you wanna be a river guide, then you have to be on the river and take so many guided trips along the river under supervision, and that's... I'm not a river guide, but I

Page 13 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project am a licensed guide for flat water, and for hiking, and camping. I'm not a hunter, I'm not a fisherman, so I don't take people on trips like that. But I wanted to have a little better understanding of all of the Adirondacks, and so I thought that becoming a licensed guide would be a good avenue, and it has turned out that way.

43:04 CA: When did you get licensed?

43:06 MP: I... Let's see, my license was in 2005, and a lot of things happened in 2005. I retired in 2002, and so... Yeah. And every five years you have to renew the license, and so... And you have to keep your first-aid up, and you have to keep water safety and that sort of stuff up. But I found it also to be a better avenue to get information and to have some credibility.

43:41 CA: Yeah. What does it entail to get licensed?

43:44 MP: Basically, to get licensed, simply means that you become aware of possible dangers, how to get out of those dangers, that you're aware of first-aid, so that if somebody has a medical emergency you can deal with it. You're aware of map reading and compass reading and how to get people from point A to point B safely. That's pretty much it. And there's a test that guides have to take that the State offers four or five times a year.

44:30 CA: Are there specific courses you go somewhere to take?

44:33 MP: There are, there is a group called the 'New York State Guide's Association'. Most of the guides that I know are somehow affiliated with that organization. That organization does provide some literature and they do provide some courses in preparation for the test. I'll have to say this, other states have more demanding tests than New York state does, but it's not bad.

45:16 CA: Yeah, could you... Do you have to go through certain ones in particular, or could you conceivably do all independent learning and then just go take that test?

45:25 MP: Oh yeah, you could do it all independent, and if you're a good boy scout, you've had all this material at one time or another. A good girl scout probably has had all this material at one time or another. If you're father or mother happened to be outdoors people, and you're aware of safety and the weather and weather conditions, you probably know it all. So it's nothing that you would have to study from a textbook, it's a lot of common sense, but it's amazing how uncommon, common sense is.

46:00 CA: Yeah. [chuckle] In being a guide, or sort of learning, did you... Have you come across a lot of Adirondack old-timers, like people who've been doing it a long time or have exceptional knowledge about the area?

46:13 MP: Well, have I come across people that know a lot about the area because of my guiding...

46:20 CA: Or just in general, I guess.

46:21 MP: And the answer I think is, yes and no. You do run across some old-timers that really know their stuff, but more commonly what you come across are people with similar interests, and

Page 14 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project those similar interests allow you to explore things and take that and go a little bit further with it. So, I have to say it's been very beneficial, but at the same time, it's not a whole bunch of new things all at once, they're kinda gradual.

47:00 CA: Yeah. Do you find... Are there many people who are guides who... People in their families that... Sort of knowledge handed down from parents to kids, or is it more kind of people who take an interest and go and get licensed?

47:14 MP: I think it's both. There are people who... Maybe the appreciation of the Adirondacks; they grew up with it, their parents had it, and consequently they do, and they just kind of naturally gravitate that way. And then there are people who we jokingly call 'flat-landers', who have come up to the Adirondacks from somewhere else, and they've fallen in love with it, and they decide that they wanna know more, and one way to know more is to get out there, and one way to get out there is to get involved with guiding, so they do it.

48:03 CA: So this is the last question, it has nothing to do with the dams and you don't have to answer it if you don't want to, but I couldn't help but notice your tattoos. Would you mind telling me what they're about?

48:13 MP: I wouldn't mind telling you about my tattoos at all. My wife and I have Newfoundland dogs, and the tattoos on my leg are the name tags for all of the various Newfies that we've had, and so that's their permanent recognition.

48:38 CA: Yeah. Do you ever take pups out with you on the water?

48:41 MP: We do. Oddly enough there is a photograph that's commonly out and about, and it shows my wife and one of our Newfies in a solo canoe, and I'll have to say that the Newfie is bigger than my wife. [chuckle] Not really, but pretty close. The Newfie in the photograph is 160 pounds, so it's a big dog. And we've had to move the seat in the canoe back because the dog is upfront in the canoe, otherwise we'd end up plowing the water, so to make the canoe trip, we've had to move the seat back.

49:35 CA: So what's your wife's name?

49:36 MP: Her name is Cookie. Actually, her name is Celeste, but as a little girl growing up on a farm in Pennsylvania, somehow she got the name Cookie and it's just stuck. I really like the name Celeste but...

49:51 CA: And do you paddle together a lot?

49:52 MP: Yeah, we do. My wife and I paddle a great deal, although she's only done a little bit of the Raquette River. I kinda jokingly say that after I retire, that she had to keep working, because somebody's got to keep me in the lifestyle that I've become accustomed; so she keeps working and I keep playing.

50:19 CA: [laughter] Sounds like a pretty good deal.

Page 15 of 16 Mike Prescott: Field Notes, Topic Log, and Interview Transcript Raquette River Dams Oral History Project

50:22 MP: Yes, it is a good deal.

50:24 CA: So is there anything else that you wanna add about the Raquette River, the dams along the river, or anything else that comes to mind?

50:32 MP: I don't think there's anything else that I haven't mentioned already, but I would encourage anyone to get out there and take a look at that river. The river is a gem, as I mentioned, an unsung, unappreciated area. Okay?

50:58 CA: Well, thank you very much. Did you wanna add anything?

51:00 : No.

51:00 CA: Thanks very much.

51:02 MP: Okay.

This oral history project is made possible by the support of the New York Department of State with funds provided under Title 11 of the Environmental Protection Fund.

Page 16 of 16