SPEAKER: Accenture Extended interesting about this content creator is Reality. This is field of view. there someone who they're not just NICK ROSA: Hello and making videos on YouTube, for welcome to Field of View. My name is example. There's someone who I, at Nick Rosa from Accenture. least from my point of view, you can see DANIEL COLAIANNI: And my genuinely cares about this industry and name is Daniel Colaianni from the genuinely cares about the actual Academy of International Extended ecosystem that evolves around it. Reality. They've got a wildly popular kind of podcast that focuses on the various NICK ROSA: And today, we different areas of our industry as well. have a guest for you that is a very Nick, who do we have on our famous content creator, is someone that Field of View today? has been working in the VR space since NICK ROSA: Our guest today is the the beginning, since the inception of the content creator that everybody knows in new era and someone that I’ve the VR space. We have Nathie with us been bumping into for many times on Field of View. Hi, Nathie, how you during industry events and other doing? gatherings of people that are interested NATHIE: Thanks for having me, about VR and XR. Daniel, would you guys. It's a pleasure. like to tell us a little bit more about our DANIEL COLAIANNI: So, guest today? Nathie, there's a few interesting things that we want to kind of dive into in this DANIEL COLAIANNI: Yeah, this episode because I think there's sure. And I think what's really important going to be a lot of people watching this is about Field of View is Field of View is and listening to this who are going to be about bringing together multiple different saying how did you get started in in XR? areas of our industry and the different I mean explain to us how did that things that make up this space. And as journey begin. most kind of viewers and listeners will NATHIE: Yeah, so I think it was know, we're all about the origin story, back in 2014, ’15, that one of my friends how people get into XR. And I guess who I know from film school introduced how that progresses through their very me to the Kickstarter from Oculus for the beginning to their end. And what's really DK1. And he was like this looks pretty

rad, man, maybe you should invest massive amount of followers that are some money into it and give it a try. And every day and every episode watching because I was in film school, I was all your adventures in hardware, always already interested in making software, platforms. Can you tell us a videos, so it was a great combination to little bit more what do you see the find out how to capture AVR experience industry right now and look back at the with your face while reacting to it. early days when you started, What's So for me, this was the you know your feeling about the evolution of the golden combination from the start industry? Do you think that has been because while I was in film school, I something that has organically loved to play video games. So I often happened or there's been a sort of an recorded myself playing games with a explosion of technology and adoption face cam reacting to it. So, yeah, it was right now? pure like curiosity to be honest. NATHIE: Yeah, so if I look back DANIEL COLAIANNI: That must and see how the VR industry has have been quite a jump, I guess, into pushed itself forward, it's definitely by - that space considering back then, I sometimes like really big things like new mean this is this is a relatively unknown hardware that was blowing everyone device that people haven't heard of and away, but also, just the ecosystem on its have seen and, I guess, most people own, developers trying to figure out how looking at this would be like, hey, yeah, we move in VR or how we want to it's a fad or this can move on. And I experience certain genres in VR that guess you decided to actually you know had all to be created before it was create content from it. actually, let's say, mainstream. Now NATHIE: Yeah, true, true. And we're like, okay, this is how you play a there was nothing there yet. There was shooting game, this is how we like to no baseline for content yet, so it was all watch movie experiences, animations, still very new, very – well, I mean there things like that, but back then that wasn't was no blueprint for how to do that kind there. of stuff. I should, by the way, correct So you've seen some developers myself. I said 2014, 2015, but the really showing how to pull it off like, for kickstart already happened by then, so it example, Clouded games is a perfect was way earlier. It's just I don't even example. They were working on a game remember anymore. It's been a long before the consumers put their hands on time. I think it was like - was it not like them and they had to kind of create 2012 or ‘13 that Kickstarter launched? something from scratch. That's like DANIEL COLAIANNI: Yeah, amazing. 2012 was definitely that I think it NICK ROSA: And you lived all launched around that sort of time. I this evolution of the different kind of mean it's up to everyone. Nick, when did ways of locomotion and the different it launched? It was so long ago now. kind of ways of interacting with the NICK ROSA: Look at me digital content, but you also had to because I'm the older one. Yeah, I think create from scratch a way to that was around 2012, 2013, yes. communicate VR, the VR experience. DANIEL COLAIANNI: Yeah, And you studied filmmaking, right? that's awesome. NATHIE: Yeah. NICK ROSA: And, Nathie, you NICK ROSA: So Can you tell us created basically a sub-genre of content a little bit of a challenge about creators on YouTube and you have a communicating and showing other

people how you feel and how you play your head because, obviously, the in an immersive environment? This is headset picks up every little nuanced something that is very important movement as well, right? because a lot of people are saying that NATHIE: Exactly, yeah. So that marketing something that you cannot you need to keep that in mind. It's like show on a 2D screen is extremely shooting a movie, so you're the camera difficult. And that's why, for example, the in the end and you're the one that shows Nintendo 3DS had so many problems particular scenes. So when I, for about making people understand that example, cover an animation or a game, the unique selling point. I play them up front to see where things NATHIE: Yeah, well, if you look are happening. So I can make sure that at my channel, most videos are just I look at it for long enough so people traditional video content because it's all, can take it in and then we move on to let's say, flat, right. It's just like you the next part and that way you really would watch someone play a pancake have to do that. If you just play game. You see the VR experience in the something in VR in a casual manner, middle and then in the left or right you're going to get people motion sick corner, you see the person actually because we usually look around like playing it. But because of that you have these crazy people because you want to the on one side and on the see everything, right. But for a video, it other side, you have the real world just doesn't work, you can't do that. showing this person wearing the NICK ROSA: And do you apply headset, so that clicks with people. If like, for example, image stabilization to you just show them the VR view, they the feed that you usually capture in have no idea what that is and how it order to make it a little bit more works. But if you see someone wearing comfortable. the headset and they do the same NATHIE: The thing is if you use movements as they do in VR, then you stabilization, it doesn't work with that. It get the point and that's where the magic does work with traditional video. So in already starts. the end, you are the stabilization. Your It's like wait, so someone is head is the stabilization. So that's why if wearing this weird thing on their head you watch my content, I usually stay on and inside something is happening and one spot. So I stay in view of the that's where you get hooked straight camera. Some people say, oh, but then away. And then if you do some you're not using the room skill commentary over it that describes capabilities. Well, I would love to, but perfectly what you see and also you then I'm just walking around behind the look around in a cinematic way to camera before you know it and then, properly show people what's going on, you're not seeing what I'm doing. yeah, then you can really sell VR, even So, yeah, it's like you have to if it's flat, it doesn't really matter. just take your time and then show it off. DANIEL COLAIANNI: So you It's a total different way of showing VR, need to tell me if this is true or not but it's very important. And I’ve seen a because I heard from someone else in lot of people buying a game or getting space that essentially, there's a big interested in a game because the way I difference between say if I want to put was showing it, instead of just a fancy on a headset right now and I'm just quick trailer with some rendered PC going to start playing with it versus content in it. So, yeah, no, it's definitely actually recording with a headset on

very effective to do it, but it's also very So that's why I see my videos time consuming. getting shared a lot on LinkedIn or other DANIEL COLAIANNI: Also, I'm places because the videos just explain guessing you wake up in the morning perfectly what your product is all about. with a bit of a stiff neck as well? If that's consumer enterprise, it doesn't NATHIE: Well, if I have to play, really matter. The approach is the same let's say, fitness games or something because there are a lot of people in the like that then, yeah, I mean I’m not enterprise that invest into AI or VR and made for that. That's why you also don't sometimes talk about it, but have no see that much on my channel. I did, for idea what they're actually investing into. example, play , that's a But if you give them some videos, then Japanese title from Sega and they they might educate themselves. wanted me to play it and I had to But, yeah, I went from games actually practice the dance moves to get and also experiences to more videos it. Yeah, because if I don't know what to where I travel around the world to show do, it just looks silly. You don't want to new hardware, also to sometimes show record something, then let people watch games as well. But things that are it and you're like how do the controls usually or very expensive and hard to work? I completely hate that. I want to - get or are still in development and are like the first minute you're watching my just working in progress. And it's video, I want to see gameplay straight amazing to be able to work with those away and I'll just skip the tutorial and I'll companies and also kind of brainstorm just give you the juicy stuff straight about, okay, how are we going to do away. That's where you hook people. this? Who's going to watch this? Who's You know, you don't want to show an going to buy this potentially, things like hour of like so how does this setting that. work, you know? DANIEL COLAIANNI: So what's NICK ROSA: Yes, but you didn't some of – okay, so you're going content only games. You covered in around, you're looking at these LV terms of content also hardware, places and you're seeing all this content, platforms, LV as well. I saw you going to which most people don't get to see. different developers that are doing LV What's someone like you did your top 10 stuff and very interesting LV stuff. It's or top 5 or whatever, what's some of the not just about developers, but it's doing best stuff you've ever seen I guess or proper - an insider look into the come across? industry? NATHIE: I think the VR Star NATHIE: Yeah, so I'm trying to Park I went to in Nanchang in China bring the enterprise scene and was insane. Even when I was there, I consumer scene kind of together and didn't really think it was going to blow up create content that everyone can watch in the European and American markets because I do even see from the when I uploaded the video. But this this enterprise market that some of my arcade was the largest one in the world, videos that are very simple in the way I not only was it a location-based arcade, explain stuff because I try to keep it very but it also had a museum about VR straightforward. I don't want to make it where people could buy a ticket to, first, too complicated, especially if you come have fun and then, get educated about out of a VR bubble, you just assume VR. So they had all the headsets there everyone knows everything, right, but and a timeline like you would see in a you need to keep it very simple. usual museum about, let's say, World

War II or something or the Roman but from there, let's say that the content Empire with all these displays, but then part of people watching that has with VR stuff. I was like you can't make definitely decreased because the thing this up. But the funny part is about that is if I'm going to China, if I'm going to the is that I was going to a park that was U.S., I'm going to Europe, I’m going to even larger, but they closed that that all these crazy places and then, I put the month. So they took me to a different bar so high that the moment there is a one. pandemic, I'm going back to basics and And the way I got there is also I can't offer the same stuff anymore. very interesting is that, was at So we definitely have seen a was at CES and they invited me to decrease in that plus with Facebook come over to Las Vegas. And I said like being the leader in the consumer market why go to CES, it's like the most with the Quest 2, you can also see that predictable thing ever, you know what's most people only want to see Quest going to happen, you could even stay videos. So if you play with a home and kind of look at what's going or you play with a PlayStation VR or HP on. You didn't try it, of course, but Reverb, people tend to not really be overall, you know what's going on. So interested in that because they do not it's like why don't you just invite me over own that hardware. So, yeah, that's also to China and then, you give me a tour of something I’ve seen change a lot. your office, you show me your factory NICK ROSA: So we moved from where you make the headsets and you a medium kind of interest in VR to a just show me what's going on in your platform interest a little bit like people country and they accepted that and that are interested in PlayStation or that's how I got in the end to VR Star Xbox. Now people are interested in Park because they are partly owning Quest or Index, right? that park. Like Pimax owns this freaking NATHIE: True. Yeah, PCVR is - arcade. Yeah, it's insane. It's insane. I mean it's still PC mastery, as we call it, NICK ROSA: And then right is still great. If you want to experience now, obviously, due to the pandemic VR to its full potential, that's where you everything has been blocked in terms of need to be at. I mean we all know about travel and amusement parks. Half-Life: Alyx. We know about you NATHIE: Yeah. know Lone Echo 2 and there are so NICK ROSA: How did your many others that you wouldn't be able to approach to VR change during the play on a standalone headset, but you pandemic? Did you see like an uptick of can see that PCVR is kind of fading interest of people like buying headset away a little bit. Hopefully, it will make because they were closed in their some sort of comeback. But right now, home? standalone is completely moving the NATHIE: Yeah, yeah, for sure – whole market forward. well, not necessarily people are buying NICK ROSA: But we have more headsets than ever before I feel companies like, for example, , that like. I don't have the numbers, but I can just announced the new specs of the see from my audience and the reactions PlayStation 5 headsets just leaked out they have on certain new hardware, that and they look amazing. So it means that they are buying. And let's say, the gap there's the entertainment industry that becomes smaller of buying some still believes in wired headsets. Do you because they're bored. They want to do think that is a smart move from them or something new. They want to explore, do you think that there will be a sort of

an add-on that will have like a wi-fi or they're really pushing the limit in terms something? of hardware. So, yeah, if the hardware NATHIE: Maybe that would be improves, then we can have fancier possible. But the thing is, a lot of people games on them too. I see now talking about the hardware DANIEL COLAIANNI: Yeah, so from Sony if it's wired or resolution, etc., this is something that I think is going to but in the end, what people forget is that be pretty hot topic, especially amongst content is king. And for me, PlayStation the kind of community that we have VR has been my favorite platform to watching these kind of - this podcast play games on. They knocked it out of some content. Nathie, you must get a lot the park and that's something Facebook of people come to you all the time is not able to do. They sometimes have saying, hey, will you play my title? big release gaps where nothing is NATHIE: Yeah, it's crazy. coming out and you have nothing to DANIEL COLAIANNI: So I'm a play. developer out there or I'm a Well, with Sony, they had manufacturer, I don't know, and I want something new every month. They know you to play my title. How do I go about their titles. They may create bundles that? What kind of stuff would you from time to time. They know what they actually want? I mean what's been the produce and they use that throughout best experience for you with an the years. Well, Facebook seems to be interaction, with a Dev or those kind of forgetting that they once made Loan things and, you know, just some tips Echo 2. They could be promoting it now really for the community? for the rave test. They never did that. NATHIE: So basics, first of all, Well, PlayStation just knows, hey, we send an email with your game in the had this and we had that. Like I am subject line. Don't send me no subject super, super excited for PlayStation VR, and then think that I'm going to read the not only because of the content, but also rest. You're laughing about this, but this them kind of changing the market a little is happening. This is happening on a bit. Because we're stuck right now with daily base. And then in the section the Quest 2 being the main deal, while where you should be explaining your PlayStation, they're gamers and they game, don't send me like four pages of know how to make games. you explaining your game. Just keep it NICK ROSA: And there's a lack short. Give me a link to a trailer and of AAA games right now on the Quest. I make sure your trailer is on public, so I mean, obviously, we don't have the kind can actually watch it too. And then, of games that PlayStation can offer, maybe add a key to it. Don't tell me like I could offer on the PlayStation VR on the don't know when it's coming out yet. I Quest right now. I mean games like don't have a launch date yet, please Resident Evil 7 or even Wipeouts. That's send me something when you're ready where for me probably like the best to go. I'm not a tester. I want to be able games that's ever been ever made for to play at the moment it's out and it's VR right now. ready to go. It's just you need to know NATHIE: Yeah, I hate to say it, who you're sending it to I feel like but most of the experiences and games almost. You need to do some research and stuff on Quest are party titles and up front because it is a big risk. It could are not full-blown VR story titles. You be like I'm not really that person who have the Walking Dead Saints and covers everything, but let's say I would, Sinners and you have Red Matter, but then I show my following that your game

sucks and you're not going to get a gamers, exactly like what happened with second chance usually in the gaming the Atari 2600, where a lot of games scene. that were all similar started coming out If your game sucks, everyone and the quality decreased with time and, will remember your game is not great obviously, the industry collapsed? and they are not giving it a second NATHIE: Well, crashing is a big chance. And then, on the side of like me word. The best example I can give is considering playing it, it's very specific. that one of my friends that tried out the Sometimes we're more into covering DK1, tried out DK2, all the headsets that hardware, so we're just not covering any I once had. They kind of got to see the games. And we're just not in that mood revolution of headsets. He never bought or in that interest. A game needs to one until last year, I think, or two years have some leverage on YouTube too for ago when Half-Life: Alyx actually people to watch. dropped - I think it was a year ago, and For example, recently there was he said I'm buying a Rift S to play Half- this silly game that came out on App Life: Alyx. I said, and is there anything Lab called, Gorilla Attack. You just know else you're going to play? He said like, like when you play it, that it's going to go no, after that I'm selling it again because viral on YouTube. You just know it that's the only thing I should be playing. because it's just weird and it's funny and The rest I can miss out and no one playing it with friends is just crazy fun. cares. And that's kind of what it comes But then there are also titles that are down to, you play the big stuff and then another wave-based shooter, but this you've seen it all. time it's not zombies, it's dinosaurs or its And the problem is, is that the - they always replace it like - trust me, genres that you mentioned, like I’ve seen some stuff. But it needs to be Shooters, for example, that's where the unique and creative and different and money is usually. People who for the then it also needs to be watchable for first time play VR, well, most gamers, my audience, but that's something a they want to shoot something first. Of developer would not know. It needs to course, there are people are also into have some - because it's my job, right? I puzzling and stuff like that, but there is a need to make a living out of it, so I can't majority of people who are like, okay. risk it to constantly play games or cover So that's why you see them VR experience or even hardware that no popping up a lot, but it's definitely the one is really interested in. We need to manufacturers and the publishers they find a balance in that. need to be responsible for that. For NICK ROSA: And one of the example, Facebook needs to say, listen, things that I notice in the in the games we're limiting the amount of shooters that are coming out right now is that that we get on the store and we allow they seem all clones of the same some more puzzle games. So we kind clones. We have rhythm games, we of keep it kind of balanced. And you can have social games, we have wave see it, see the system failing because shooters, but there's not much space for Demeo came out last week and the complex textured stories and storytelling sales are going through the roof. And like, for example, Half-Life: Alyx, that we the reason why is because it's the only mentioned before. Why do you think - tabletop game that you can play on your don't you think that this kind of over Quest and you can play on Steam that saturation of the same genre could lead is just - has that AAA feeling to it, that is to a collapse of interest from the

a decent game, that isn't early access, yeah, there is a lot already there that that isn't work in progress. you could turn into VR games. And for a So you can see that people are developer and for a publisher, you have super hungry for other genres. It's just to throw less money into it. I mean look that they need to allow it to happen on at Skyrim VR, people are still playing the store. that. Fallout VR, DOOM VR. It's already NICK ROSA: You tried Star there, so why not use it? Wars Squadron, right, in VR? Because as you said, we're not NATHIE: Yeah, of course, yeah. ready to have a AAA game every month NICK ROSA: And I mean I yet that is built from the ground up for wanted to have your feeling about Star VR. Wars Squadron because it seems to me NICK ROSA: But Facebook is that there's a real hunger from people of betting high on the fact that the future of experiences that they've been expecting VR is social, is not single users. to live in for all of their life. I DANIEL COLAIANNI: But this is mean everybody wants to be a pilot of going to be my question because like an X-Wing in Star Wars, right? we're talking about a lot about games NATHIE: Yeah, of course. here. NICK ROSA: And Star Wars NATHIE: Yeah, I know. This Squadron like it's straight to the point, happens all the time. You know it's fun, that's just one thing and it does it really, but, yeah. really well. I mean do you think that DANIEL COLAIANNI: But I there are other kind of experiences that guess like for and where I hope, Nick, I can be explored in this way? think you're going with this is like for the NATHIE: Well, the funky part future of XR to be successful is we've about Star Wars Squadron is that the got this whole ecosystem around it, VR support was an extra. It's not even a right? So, yeah, you've got these games main thing and they saw an increase of and then you've got Facebook who's more people playing it in VR than they focusing on Horizon and such. And were playing it flat because it just works then, you've got Microsoft focusing on way better. Well, if you look at the Mesh and their API with that and then timeline of Star Wars games coming you've got Allspace. out, usually every Star Wars game gets NATHIE: Allspace. fairly good reviews because it's Star DANIEL COLAIANNI: Yeah, Wars and you can't hate on it. exactly. And all of these things come in So with this one, like Star War together. So, yeah, I mean what are the Squadrons was the first one that was other important things outside of games like legit, legit from top to bottom the that you think is going to have a really best VR experience out there, next to important impact on these things? Vader Immortal, but it works. And there, NATHIE: So I think what's yeah, certain titles that already exist missing at the moment because, yeah, right now that could get a VR mode and we mentioned Allspace. We mentioned that would just click straight away. Facebook Horizon. Right now, if you That's why you, for example, see own a headset and that's from the Resident Evil 4, you already see the enterprise side and the consumer side, hype building up right now with them both sides. If you jump into VR, there is completely turning the third person no main hub that is really, let's, say mode into a first person one and it's just Ready Player One, where it's like, okay, great. I just know it's going to be fun. So, I'm in there and, hey, are you also here

on my couch chilling in my apartment or check out the car, you walk around it, let's go over there through this portal to you push a button and you can order it do that. That's just not there. There is no from there. So if you kind of have things seamless way of traveling through the - you introduce things that you would metaphors yet. And I think the moment usually have to do in real life, but you you have an ecosystem in where you can then do in VR, and it's also quicker can meet up with other people, it than people are willing to stay more in becomes more of that thing we're doing VR and they’re also willing to try more right now on our phones on Instagram things out. Because right now, let's be or Facebook or LinkedIn, where we honest, it's still better to have a Zoom constantly connect with people. call than to, for example, do that in VR Right now, in VR you only around a table. It's just not there yet. It's connect with people the moment you nice, but it's not there yet. It's still kind of download an app that is social and then wonky. So it needs to be quicker, faster, you go in there, but then not everyone is more – yeah. in there. So the friction is still too big. So DANIEL COLAIANNI: Intuitive, I if you kind of tone it down and you make guess, as well, easy, just slide it in and it instant, that's where things are going out. to blow up. NICK ROSA: I have a sort of - I DANIEL COLAIANNI: So are want to be a little bit provocative you saying here that for a successful actually. industry or, I guess, something that's DANIEL COLAIANNI: Actually going to supercharge it, really, is we right, this is Nick. I need to set up a need to be able to bring all these sound bite here called, Nick's different platforms together, just like how Provocative Corner. you have PlayStation and Xbox have NICK ROSA: Okay, so that right cross-platform capabilities, but actually now, obviously, VR can give you access not just like in the game itself, but to the digital world and actually, I put on my headset, I can see headsets that many companies right everyone in everyone else's headset now are preparing. We only know the and interact without having to jump onto public announcement by Facebook, but this is private system. there will be other companies that will NATHIE: That's a bit like we come out in the future, will give us a have seen with and also portal to bring the digital world into the what we have seen with VR yet with the real world. How do you think our virtual market where there are people perception of reality will change once who are selling virtual items in a, let's we're going to have these headsets all say, place and you can just go there and on our heads and we're going to use spend money and then take those items them during our everyday life? to your own, let's say, house, virtual I was reading a very interesting house, virtual apartment, and just place article on Vogue the other day about the it there. This is one example of you fact that digital fashion is going to be a could have a marketplace, you could thing of the future. Because right now, have Amazon there, you can have eBay people are buying aesthetics for there, you could have all these big Fortnite, but in the future you can buy stores there. aesthetics and digital clothes for your Also, there is another app that I glasses. What's your forgot the name of that actually offers vision about the future of the world in you to buy a Tesla in VR. You can just AR?

NATHIE: Well, first of all, I think other day about the social filtering that it's very futuristic and cool but, of Sony patented to create a shadow course, everything has its downsides as banning of an inappropriate behavior of well. Well, first of all, the thing is at people in VR. Basically, filtering without some point, everyone is going to – well, them even knowing action and word that first, we're going to wear AR glasses, as are not appropriate in a social VR you said, and maybe we get to a point environment. In the future, we're going where it's all built into your brain. And to be able basically to control how the thing is there will be a point where people perceive our digital person you want to be part of society and if you without even knowing that we are don't have it, then you just don't belong, controlled. right? And that's where things start to And do you think that this is kind of, well, get interesting, as I would going to bring some changes also in the say, because then it starts to feel like way that they perceive reality and each you're naked without it. Right now, if I other and they will you know interact would take away your phone, you're with each other in some way? I mean I going to go crazy. I mean maybe you can have a filter that is going to make can stick with it for like an hour, but then me look like a perfect nice guy and in as well, you're like where is my phone? reality – So it becomes like an extension DANIEL COLAIANNI: We all of your brain because we humans are, know that's a lie. well, smart to a certain degree, but our NICK ROSA: Exactly, we all phone is usually still - you're like, oh, know that is not real. notification this or that. It's things you NATHIE: Like, of course, like if don't remember yourself. you talk about it that way you already So we are going to heavily rely change someone's personality by even on that stuff and we want to wear it all taking out certain words not even the time and, yeah, your whole world is replacing them necessarily is already going to be filled with advertisement, kind of not letting someone be with being able to block people or being themselves. Although, I mean I’ve seen able to filter certain things out that you some nasty stuff as well in VR and also, just don't want to see. You're going to just on my computer when I'm like see the world in a more awesome way, joining virtual places. Sn one side, I but also in actually a more dystopian think this is a great tool to fight way. So your whole reality becomes a harassment, something has been going new reality and it's becoming the on for ages. It's like the new bullying that standard then. we used to have at school, where it's DANIEL COLAIANNI: So, Nick, now - and then also the fact that people does this mean that to fast-forward 300 start to live more and more on the years in the future, when you have the internet have virtual items, things like clearly loyal XR people and you have that, you get this social kind of letter. So, the outsiders who are like, no, we're not yeah, harassment is definitely a thing using it. They're going to point to you that needs to be kind of fought against. and be like that guy here, he's But I don't know, man, like the responsible for it. thing is if you - let's say you play a game NICK ROSA: That his or you have you have a social VR world provocative question created all of this or something and you can filter out with mess, yes, that's it. But I mean that this a slider how much words or something links up to the news that came out the and then you don't hear them anymore.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. As I right now we look around. We move our said, I don't want people to get hands something you wouldn't do when harassed, but on the other side, taking it you sit behind a desk with a keyboard completely away makes - you create a and a mouse. world that doesn't exist and it's - you For me, personally, it's important know what I mean? You need to kind of that companies are transparent, but how keep certain things in that are there to do you know they are transparent in keep it normal. It's just a bit too much if today's society, right? they would completely ban every word. DANIEL COLAIANNI: It’s their I mean certain words should be company, right? banned, yes, but there are also words NATHIE: Yeah, so I don't really where it's like if you play with friends in a know. And for my work, I just use private - there are certain things you say everything. So I show the mouth and it's like it would be stupid if they, tracking, I show, let's say, ways to do you know, so I don't know. We'll see microphone gestures and things like where it's going, so it's kind of 50/50 this that, but let's say if I wouldn't be doing stuff, yeah. this as a living, I wouldn't be turning DANIEL COLAIANNI: So this everything on, all the privacy settings. leads nicely onto another thing and I For example, my Quest 2, everything is know, obviously, you interact with a lot on only me. I'm not sharing my name. of different people in the space. But I'm not sharing what I'm playing. I'm just what are your views on, I guess, a really not sharing that stuff because I don't feel hot topic what comes up a lot in our like I want to. So, yeah, the thing is like I industry is privacy concerns with these hate to say it but, it's already kind of like kind of things? Because, obviously, the beast has already been unleashed when we're talking about the fact that for every tech company in a way. You we can do things like Nick is saying and can already see how far they push that being able to kind of remove certain and I don't think there is a way back. But things, but then there's also all these maybe I'm just too much in my bubble to other things. I mean you have a video think that, but I don’t know. on your channel where you're testing out NICK ROSA: There are some like face tracking and things like that companies that are making privacy their and biometrics and, obviously, a lot of unique selling point like, for example, these headsets have eye tracking and Apple. But obviously, there are some stuff. We all know the controversy other companies like, for example, around certain organizations in our Facebook that is exactly the opposite. space that have repurposed entire And we have Google that is somewhere brands to be focused just on their in between. And will be interesting platforms. So I mean just what are your especially with a medium like XR to views on, I guess, the privacy side of understand how much of the biometric XR? data they're going to collect to advertise NATHIE: Yeah, so eye tracking to us the fact that maybe we are not so and also mouth tracking and initially like fit and maybe we have to go to the gym face tracking is the new gold. It's the or I don't know, all that kind of stuff. new data and it's getting created, as we DANIEL COLAIANNI: Nick, do speak, something that is so new that you want to have constant messages you can just - it's like a gold mine every day saying, Nick, you need to go basically of things we didn't have before. to the gym, you're overweight? But that's the same with VR headsets

NICK ROSA: I'm running every makes any sense, but it's a subject that day, my friend. I don’t need to go to the goes all over the place. gym. DANIEL COLAIANNI: It was a DANIEL COLAIANNI: Nick gets very good diplomatic answer. his Provocative Corner, so I should get NICK ROSA: I wanted to ask mine as well. Should a or you something related to Esports, augmented reality platform be owned by Nathie. I know that right now there are a a social media company? lot of titles that are played very NATHIE: That's a good one. competitively and there are a lot of Yeah, it's a very good one. I mean the people on Twitch that are broadcasting thing is if you look at the current VR their games, games like, for example, industry and you would rewind certain Pablo VR. It can be great Esports to things, then we wouldn't have a job in watch. From your opinion, what's this the first place. So that's the thing. Like current situation of VR Esports and right now and that's what I see a lot in where this could bring in the future in the VR scene is that everyone has a job terms of expansion of adoption of VR for in the VR industry and that's where you Esports? just leave it. So opinions are kind of NATHIE: So one of the first pushed aside and as long as I can pay Esports titles we have seen were my rent and have fun, then it's cool. So Onward and I think Echo Arena. Those it's just a hard subject to get into but, no, were the first, and we were like, okay, of course, not. I mean you don't want to now we're getting there. And if you have one company owning everything remember watching Oculus Connect 5, I and kind of get away with it. We already think, they had a live stream where they see that kind of happen right now, right? were letting teams play against each I mean Facebook is buying up studios, other in Onward with like professional is making the best software, is making, Esports commentators and also different well, as I said, Sony makes still better views, different angles, so you could see games in my opinion, but hyper wise what they were doing. So like you would they’re underselling it for a price that no see in a regular Esports stream. And for one can compete with. me, it was like - because I got to watch it You see brands kind of moving live. I was like, wow, this is like a world away now being like, first of all, HTC is on its own now and it was really cool. It now kind of like let's not try to compete. was really nice to see. But then the next Let's just try to do our own thing and see Oculus Connect, we had a goodbye if that succeeds. So you can already see party because Oculus stopped - the negatives of that where people are because they were sponsoring the kind of pulling themselves out of the League, the Esports League for Onward scene into different parts, in more niche and they kind of pulled out of that and parts or parts where they still have a that was a shame because that's kind of little bit of ground, but that is going to where it had stopped. change. I mean I do think if the bigger Because ESL isn't really doing fish, the bigger companies are all much with VR right now. Maybe they will owning a part of VR, we're going to see in the future, but it was Oculus that was an ecosystem that is more open, there's kind of putting money into this Esports more room for people to do their own scene and kind of try to let it go thing. somewhere. Because the thing is, the Well, right now, you're kind of players are the ones that choose what stuck in a way. So I don't know if this becomes an Esports game and Onward

and Echo Arena were already popular knows. So there are definitely ways to on their own. Now you see some also monetize it, but you just need to companies, developers do this most of make it bigger because I see that a lot the time, they make a game and they with VR. That's what I try to do on my say, yeah, this is great for Esports. So own channel is VR looks very stupid they kind of put a label on it and then sometimes and if you don't make it a they also try to spend some money on little bit cooler than it really is, then prizes to start it out. But the thing is it people don't seem to really get it you gets created by the players themselves, know. So that's why you always have to you know, like Counter Strike and kind of - that's why I always mention like Overwatch. already player one and oh, the Matrix or It's not like they - of course, they comparing it to things we know and love have an idea that it's going to be big, but to kind of bump it up. So, yeah. the players are the ones that train in DANIEL COLAIANNI: Nick these games and become better. But talked about, I guess, at the start of the right now, I don't know where Esports is podcast, we got creating content for VR, going for VR. I have seen more location- but how do you think that's going to based arcades do it as well where they change, I guess, when you're going to organize events. For example, SoReal need to create content for AR? in Beijing, they were hosting Esports NATHIE: Yeah, so I do own a events in their arcade where people Hololens. When it came out, I bought could come and watch on the big screen one and I was very interested in that. and then you had like this open area Because I was already in this VR kind of where six versus six people were roller coaster, I thought like AI is going playing in a room skill area. Because if to - like the moment I upload videos of you remember with Onward, people AR, it's going to take off, but it was way were playing in a standing position on a too early because the moment I little platform. But with that, it's like a full recorded when you, for example, saw arena that just gets turned into - and I my real view with my hands, my hands think that's where we're going with were through the holograms. They didn't Esports where they just have to have a even kind of had any like occlusion in big open space because it's more fun to any way. It just didn't look great. And the watch. It's not fun to have someone Field of View was also super small, the stand on the spot and be like is this it? It frame rate was like 25 or something needs to look epic. That's what makes because it was like streamed over to Esports in an arena so awesome. your PC. DANIEL COLAIANNI: And I just didn't see it work, but now arguably, when you're looking at we have tools where you could put a someone just sit in front of a computer camera somewhere and project those screen with their keyboard and mouse, AR things into your room with just a that's not extremely exciting, but then I static camera but even with the Hololens guess you know you have an arena and 2 right now, it's still not where it should type stuff, then I guess. be. I think the first person view of NATHIE: Yeah, and it opens up someone wearing the headset, that's like also opportunities for people to what relates the most to people when sponsor that stuff right, where, HP could they watch it because they know - it's sponsor the backpacks or you have the like a GoPro view and if you can then haptic suits from bHaptics or maybe have holograms in them and properly even Tesla suit could jump in, who

show them, I think it's really going to So you see in the contents take off. where you see it change already where But, yeah, right now, like the some people are super excited about thing is Microsoft didn't make tools to everything, where I'm very - like really create content, that's not where sometimes, I'm very skeptical about stuff we're at right now. It's more about and other moments, I'm like, wow, this is creating a baseline in terms of apps and epic and amazing. So, yeah, there is stuff like that. So, yeah, it's nice you can definitely space because VR isn't record, but it's not ready yet. mainstream yet. And every year – DANIEL COLAIANNI: A game DANIEL COLAIANNI: And it's changer for AR, I guess, like if we can easy to make YouTube videos, right? get to a stage where content creation It's something you can do in 30 minutes looks epic? And I guess like a follow-up and then don't have to do anything else. to that afterwards would just be like I NATHIE: Well, yeah, well I guess, we're discussing all these great mean that that's funny that you mention ways to capture content and things like that because when people ask me, hey, that, but I'm sure there's going to be a what do you do for a living? I'm like, lot of people watching us as well who okay, I make content on YouTube, this um are thinking about getting into and that. And they’re like, oh, that creating content for XR related stuff. sounds amazing. I just have to turn on And I'd also like to hear your opinion on the camera and then just talk and done it if you feel there's still space I guess for and that's it. But that's not how it works. people to join that and to create It's about research. additional content. NICK ROSA: What piece of NATHIE: So, you mean on the advice, like three main piece of advice video side? that you would give to someone that DANIEL COLAIANNI: Sure. wants to start a channel on YouTube NATHIE: So on YouTube you about VR or AR? can - like when I started, I was one of NATHIE: Well, first of all, start the only people doing it. I remember because you want to do it, because Bruce doing it, Semantic Bruce, also you're interested in VR. There are also Referent CAL from upload also had a people who do VR because it makes a YouTube channel as well. But besides lot of money and it's not necessarily that, there weren't that many people because they're passionate about it or doing it, so there was no standards. You they want VR to become mainstream. couldn't look at other people to kind of The moment VR decreases, you get inspiration. Now you can see every sometimes see those channels pull out time a new headset launches, new again and they're like, okay, let's go to hardware launches, you get a lineup of the next big thing. So, yeah, well, I new YouTubers. And you can also see mean it's up to you, of course, but you them having a different view. I’ve talked have to be at least passionate about VR to people who got their first experience to a certain point and be interested in on PlayStation VR. I talked to people that and being interested in sharing who got their first experience on Oculus something about that. I think that would Quest 2. So the standards are different be the first tip. where I would play something and I And then, the second tip, just do would like hmm, it's not so great. it because you think it's fun. Do it as Someone else, because they just because it's a creative outlet. Don't look started playing VR, they think it's epic. at other people like me or Mike and

think like, okay, I see the success, that's on my own thing because it's wasting what I want right now. I want to make your time and energy usually. maybe a lot of money. I want to get But tip number three would be invited to E3 and Oculus Connect and I this is something I learned for the last want to get free hardware and I want all couple of years is network a lot, like the fun stuff. Just first try to find your networking all the time. Because then, if own identity, do something you want to you make friends, if you know certain share with your audience and then you’ll companies, then they will say, hey, we also find out that after a while, you start had a great time when we were at this to get the hang of it. You're like, wow, restaurant or you came over to our this is great. I got my own thing going office, so we'll give you this to try out or, on. And then there will also be a point hey, maybe you should come over and that you're like, okay, it's not always fun do this because then you get access to and there are certain things that are a really cool stuff that maybe someone lot of hard work or things that are else wouldn't get access to. And I just annoying or are boring or there is more noticed that if you're friends with people, behind the, let's say, creating content they're mostly willing to share something that people just don't see. than someone who is a nobody. And And I’ve seen this happen before you can have loads of subscribers or where some people want to go too fast. loads of views, but if they don't know They just created their channel. They you personally, then they don't get their first, let's say, 10K subscribers necessarily have to care. But if they in a few months because nowadays VR, know you, like I had people in the as I said, becomes bigger. So it's easier industry that thought about me in a to grow faster, where I had to, for certain way, but when I met them, example, wait a year before I got 10K they're like, oh, but now we get how you subs. Now you can do it in a few weeks do your stuff. And so, it's better to kind maybe or a few months if you do it right. of be out there. Right now, that's hard, But, yeah, you need to just watch out of course, with the pandemic, but being that you don't get too ahead of yourself, out there. I would say. That's why, for example, I did so And then, yeah, tip number three much fun, like so much fun things in is – China because I was brave enough to NICK ROSA: Stay humble. fly over the Great Chinese Wall into a NATHIE: Yeah, well, definitely, place where no one of the industry was definitely, because the if you’re not there. Like I remember sitting in a taxi humble, you screw up everything, you with someone who's - like one of my screw up everything. best friends now and I said like, what DANIEL COLAIANNI: Well, we’ll was the last time that Upload VR came get some YouTube drama going on. here? It’s like somewhere in 2014. NATHIE: Well, I mean that could What? And if you ask them what was definitely create drama. I mean if you the last time that journalists were in have someone who is on one side very America? Well, yesterday. Well, there's passionate about VR and then on the so much going on in different parts of other side, you have someone who is the world. just doing it for the money, then that can So the networking brings you to clash for sure. Luckily, that doesn't places, also makes you friends that you happen in the VR scene because it's still never knew you would even get in the so small and I'm trying to always focus first place. So, yeah, it just adds

something to your career. It's also went to Google HQ, they just started adding something to your personal kind doing a VR team that was looking at VR of motivation to explore. 180 content, also how can we bring NICK ROSA: And thank you for gaming and Esports to VR? It's like the this this answer. This is very interesting, brainstorm sessions and then make it a especially the part of the emotional reality. intelligence that I think that sometimes, So I am definitely interested in, especially with people that are working yeah, doing something like that because with technology and gaming, lacks in then you have the best of both worlds during the conversations and the because I know how the YouTube thing relationships. works, I know how that part has been I wanted to ask you one last created, how it's going to get more question before we close. I don't know if popular. And then, on the other side, Daniel has more questions after that, you can combine that with something but this is the last for me. What is the else. It's just I don't know what it's going next for Nathie? What is your dream? to be, but I don't see myself doing What would you like to do when you're YouTube for another, let's say, three, going to be old, let's say, I mean you're four years. It's just that I’ve been doing it super young, you're very talented, you all already for a long, long time, you created literally a genre on YouTube, know. So, yeah, if I can create you're one of the best content creators something new for myself next. I around and what would you like to do? wouldn't give up my channel. I wouldn't NATHIE: Yeah, so I still think give up my channel, but I it wouldn't be YouTube is really fun. It is, as I said, I'm the main thing anymore. beyond the stage now of like everything NICK ROSA: So VR companies, is fun. I did a lot of stuff that I'm not this is a message for you, Nathie is going to do again because I already did available for interviews, get in touch. it before. For example, I'm playing less NATHIE: Yeah, no, but games than I used to do. I'm more seriously, like I’ve already done some interested in, as you said, like going to a things on the side like advising company, try something out and then companies on how can we make your show that and maybe sometimes there's game more sales or being on a board to still a game, but there needs to be more find, okay, what's going to be the next to it like a simulator. So I definitely want game we create that is going to be to challenge myself. I want to keep popular straight away and kind of look challenging myself. I have been thinking into those formulas or helping about also just using YouTube as a side companies to reach out to the right job and then starting to work for a VR content creators and kind of letting them company. understand how they should be I’ve seen some of my colleagues approaching those people, so they can become community managers. It's not get the most out of it. So, yeah, there is something I personally want to do, but I a lot to still be done. do see value in joining a company on NICK ROSA: So it's marketing maybe the marketing side. And I do communication, but also part of the think there are companies who are game design and game creation? interested in hiring me in that sense. For NATHIE: Well, I I’ve had a few example, like if you meet all these offers where people said like you want companies, you start to discover jobs to create a game. Because the thing is I that I never thought existed. When I played so many games and I played so

many experiences and stuff, that I would you coming back? I was like I'm now technically know how to make here and we're already talking about the something that really, really works. And next time, like you become this hot topic it's definitely nice to be a part of that you never knew was even possible. something like that, but it needs to be a DANIEL COLAIANNI: Wow, I company that is well-known. I don't want think like that, Nick, that was a perfect to go for a very small Indie of - you kind of ending question to this podcast. I know, no offense like two, three people think there was so much to unpack here. working on it. I really want to create And I think it was - I can see the something big. marketing team already. They're like, So who knows where I will end Nathie, to quit YouTube in four years. up but, yeah, I love to explore NATHIE: Yeah, maybe. something new for sure. DANIEL COLAIANNI: But I think DANIEL COLAIANNI: I think we that's really fascinating. I think me and all know it's going to be the Nathie Nick were sitting here at the start kind of TikTok, YouTube, YouTuber house isn't thinking like where are we going to take it? the direction of this episode? And I think NATHIE: You had to go there. it's navigated its way through quite a few But there are certain aspects that are different areas from games, through to still so undiscovered. As you said, like social, through to enterprise even. So I you're making fun out of TikTok, but I think this was a great episode and thank mean there are people who are already you so much for kind of come joining us using that to promote their VR stuff on today. and they also came up with that NATHIE: Yeah, thanks for themselves. So, yeah, we'll see where it having me. goes for now. I’m just going to continue NICK ROSA: Thank you, making content because there is so Nathie. And, Daniel, would you like to much coming out of it that is like remind everybody where they can find insanely fun things that I never knew our podcasts and our episodes? would have happened in the first place. DANIEL COLAIANNI: Yeah, There are so many moments definitely. I think that the key thing here where I'm just at a place and I'm like is that this is also if you're listening to how the heck did I end up here? Like I this and you hear this amazing voice first just play games at my parent’s right now, this actual episode is also on place, making some videos there, then YouTube. You can actually watch it. It's moving out of my parent’s place getting also though on all your favorite my own studio and stuff. And from there, platforms like Spotify, Apple Music, it's like everything goes so fast. I used to Google Podcasts, anywhere you really go to a new place every two months. I get your podcasts. So feel free to was like sitting in a plane almost all the subscribe on there. You can go to the time. And that's like almost something actual landing page on the AIXR that is new to a certain degree because website, where you can learn more I used to not really do that. I used to not about the podcast, learn more about - like I like to kind of sit in my room and Nick and myself, about how Accenture just play games, but the moment I got to is involved and why the Academy does kind of interact with people and they're these kind of podcasts. But, yeah, I like, hey, when are you coming? Like mean thank you very much for joining us there were moments where I was today and thank you for a really, really somewhere and they were like when are enjoyable episode.

NICK ROSA: Thank you very much. I'll see you next time. Thank you, Nathie. Thanks for being with us.

NATHIE: Thanks a lot.

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