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Home , Arturo Toscanini, George Szell, Robert Shaw (conductor), Robert Shaw Chorale

An Interview with : Reflections at Eighty

by Jeffrey Baxter

RobertShaw

.Robert Shaw's distinguished career began in In 1979, Shaw was appointed by President Jimmy Carter to in 1938, where he prepared choruses for such renowned con­ the National Council on the Arts and he was a 1991 recipient of ductors as , , and . the , the nation's highest award given to In 1949 he formed the , which for two artists. Musical America, the international directory of the per­ decades reigned as America's premier touring . Under the forming arts, named him Musician of the Year for 1992, and auspices ofthe U.S. State Department, the Chorale performed during the same year he was awarded the National Medal ofthe in thirty countries throughout Europe, the , the Arts in a ceremony. He was the 1993 recipient of Middle East, and Latin America. During this period Shaw also the Conductors' Guild TheodoreThomas Award, in recognition served as ofthe San Diego Symphony and then ofhis outstanding achievement in and his contribu­ as Associate Conductor of the Orchestra, working tions to the education and training ofyoung conductors. closely with for eleven years. He served as Music A regular guest conductor ofmajor orchestras in this country Director of the Symphony Orchestra from 1967 to and abroad, Shaw also is in demand as a teacher and lecturer at 1988, during which time the orchestra garnered widespread leading U.S. universities. He founded the Robert Shaw Institute acclaim through national and international tours and award­ to foster excellence in music-making, especially in the choral art. winning recordings. The Institute's summer festivals have attracted admiring atten­ Throughout his career Shaw has received abundant recog­ tion from the international press and produced a number of nition for his work. His honors include degrees and citations recordings from the Robert Shaw Festival Singers. Currently he from forty U.S. colleges and universities, thirteen Grammy serves as Music Director Emeritus and Conductor Laureate of Awards, England's Gramophone Award, a Gold Record for the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and performs and records the first RCA classical recording to sell more than a million with the Atlanta-based Robert Shaw Chamber Singers. The copies, four ASCAP Awards for service to contemporary mu­ following interview took place December 21, 1995, in Atlanta. sic, the first Guggenheim Fellowship ever awarded to a con­ Jeffrey Baxter: Mr. Shaw, you are widely regarded as one of ductor, the Alice M. Ditson Award for service to contemporary the first conductors to elevate American choral singing to the music, the for outstanding contribu­ level one finds in great American orchestral playing. When you tions to music in America, and the Gold Award ofthe first arrived in New York in the 1930s, what kind of choral American Symphony Orchestra League for distinguished ser­ singing did you find? vice to music and the arts. Robert Shaw: As regards the niceties and disciplines ofinto­ nation, enunciation, and balance, it seemed to me that the Jeffrey Baxter is Choral Assistant at the Atlanta Symphony colleges and universities ofCalifornia were equal, ifnot superior, Orchestra and Adjunct Professor of Music History at Georgia to the institutions ofthe East. Howard Swan for some years had State University, Atlanta. been active in southern California and, with others, had raised choral singing to a remarkable degree. I also found two vastly

APRIL 1996 PAGE 9 different vocal traditions present (in the Harvard tradition and, from Marshall rhythmic precision and metric exactitude. East and throughout the country): that of Bartholomew at Yale, the American folk­ Exacdy how did you develop the meth­ F. Melius Christiansen, which was sub­ song tradition-principally spirituals ar­ ods that you use to instruct a chorus in stantially without vibrato and concerned ranged by Bartholomew and others. In these techniques? primarily with music for religious services; New York City, choruses performed the R.S.: The first basic assumption was the other was the tradition ofJohn Finley great classical European repertoire ofcho­ that if one wanted to "communicate," Williamson and the Westminster Choir, ral/orchestral works, but as far as the disci­ one had to establish a "community" in which was based on an operatic vocal style. plines ofa cappella singing were concerned, the performing group. Others came from There also were two principal literatures: the West Coast was as strong as the East. the understanding that music was the Renaissance literature arranged for ].B.: Some of the notable characteris­ uniquely a time-art distinct from the male voices in the Archibald T. Davison- tics of your performances were, and are, space-arts of sculpture and painting. Therefore, one ofthe principal disciplines had to be the organization of the ele­ ments oftime. It also became obvious to me as I began to work with professional and nonprofessional choruses that almost Al Holcomb, all the problems ofenunciation were cured Director by an attention to metric precision, and most intonation problems were vasdy im­ proved by having people arrive at the same WEEKLONG SUMMER CHORAL WORKSHOPS moment of music simultaneously. Mat­ AND SPECIAL PROGRAMS ters of articulation and accentuation de­ • Sustained Survival: • Choral Solutions pended completely on time. Therefore, Middle School Choral Excellence in a Changing July 22-26 the rehearsal techniques that were devel­ Education World Clinician: Carl"Oll Gonzo oped were simply practical devices used June 24-28 Focus on three crucial choral topics - sight-singing Clinician: Sandrn Chapman and how to teach it, preparing your choir for to establish an absolute integrity ofmet­ Explore the many facets of middle school music, including adjudication, and achiel'ing a healthy, expressil'e ric utterance. world music literature, choral masterpieces, motil'ational choral sound. J.B.: Another hallmark of your style actil'ith?s, National Standards and curriculum, and preparing for the first day of choir. • The VoiceCare Network: is textual clarity, whether in unaccompa­ Impact Course nied or choral/orchestral performances. • Folk Music in the Choral Setting: August 2-9 Finding, Evaluating, Performing, and Arranging Clinicians: Axel Theimel; Leon Thnrmml, In this regard, how much ofan influence July 1-5 EliziIbeth Grefsheim and Jolm Cooksey was your early work in radio with Fred Clinician: Nina Gilbert Waring? Come learn how to find, el'aluate, perform, and arrange folk SPECIAL PROGRAM music for your choir that reflects style and integrity. • Hartt Kodaly Certification Program R.S.: Fred Waring, of course, was re­ (Levels I-III) sponsible for the term "tone-syllables," • Caught in the Middle July 15-26 but already for some months, ifnot a few July 1-5 ClillicimlS: Jo1m Feiel'Obend, Jill Trinka, Ild/k6 Clinician: Al Holcomb Herboly, and Al Holcomb years, John Finley Williamson had been This course will address difficult issues associated with middle Come experience an innol'ative approach for teaching talking about phonetic enunciation. I school singers including inaccurate singers, changing I'oices, music literacy, explore folk music, and improl'e your I'ocal del'elopment, and motil'ationalstrategies. imagine, because of the Westminster musicianship. Choir's performances with the New York • Choral Conducting: We make summer study easy! Philharmonic and other orchestras, that a Gesture and Application • Air-conditioned housing availability July 8-12 • Shuttle service good deal of this phonetic enunciation Clinicimz: Michael Yachmlin • On-campus travel agency might have evolved to extend to English • Graduate credit This comprehensil'e seminar is designed to examine • Centralized registration, housing and parking the techniques that are absolutely neces­ conducting, literature, and performance practices for the secondary choral professionr.!. sary for singing in foreign languages. People became conscious ofhow Ameri­ • Choral Music Experience: Conducting Workshop for Teachers can speech was constructed, rather than (Certification Levels I- III) assuming itwould take care ofitsel£ There July 15-19 is no doubt thatWaring's great popularity Clinicimls: Janet Galvan, Frmlcisco Nl;,iez, David in the popular song literature was an im­ Elliott, Kathy Armstrong Utilizing dil'erse and artistic literature, participants will explore petus ro many choral organizations choral artistry through the study of I'ocal technique, score around the country to strive for better analysis, conducting, rehearsal methods, and philosophy. enunciation. There also is very litrle doubt in my mind that techniques like his exag­ gerated use ofhummed consonants were The University of Hartford admits students of any race, age, color, UNIVERSITY creed, gender, physical ability, sexual orientation, national and extraordinarily and handsomely suited to ethnic origin to all rights, privileges, programs, and activities ©FHARTFORD generally accorded or made available to students of the University. the popular song and established a group-

PAGE 10 CHORAL JOURNAL art intimacy in repertoire that was really should entail. The choral art's unique more suitable for the solo singer. That is, advantage, however, is that it allows par­ the popular love-ballad is fundamentally Julius Herford, ticipants to begin at an extraordinarily "inappropriate" for a group ofmen-ex­ high level of creativity. That is, one can cept for the fraternity-sing literature. All with whom I did begin with a Bach chorale or a Brahms these elements of enunciation somehow motet and not have to go through some made it more emotionally acceptable as structural and fifteen to sixteen years of"finger exercises" well as more understandable. to gain happiness and competence. The J.B.: Arturo Toscanini and George Szell analytical studies, great choral repertoire for some three to are two names that loom large in your four hundred years has been justly ac­ past and the past ofAmerican music his­ mostprofoundly affected claimed as one of the flowers of man's tory. What were their major influences artistic and creative life, and to be able to on your music-making? my development. participate in the expression of those cre­ RS.: The influence ofToscanini was ative mastetworks is a great and ennobling the impression of his personal passion, experience for anyone. Certainly the art and the influence of Szell was one of his musical level ofany civilization is going to needs both professionals and amateurs: precision-in particular, how meticu­ be judged by a few thoroughly profes­ amateurs need professionals to learn pro­ lously he edited his performing materials. sional institutions in large cities more than fessional technical accomplishment, and The elements ofpride in Szell's orchestra it is liable to be judged by the artistic level professionals need to remember their early stemmed from his personal desire to make ofchurch , school choruses, and vol­ amateur commitment. it the largest in the world. unteer recreational activities. There's no J.B.: Do you find it a positive sign of Consequently, he marked all his music so doubt in my mind that the amateur moti­ artistic growth and music education in meticulously that had everyone been able vation of music ("amateur" derives this country' that many of the works ar­ to play all the nuances of dynamics, ar­ linguistically from the Latin "amo, ranged by you and for the ticulation, and accentuation at the first amare," to love) is extraordinarily pre­ professional Robert Shaw Chorale are now rehearsal, the rehearsal would have sur­ cious, even to professionals. One of the standard repertoire for many high school passed most rehearsed performances. He sadnesses ofa professional career in music and college choruses? used to say to his orchestra that they be­ is that it puts great strains on one's "ama­ RS.: Certainly Alice Parker's arrange­ gan to rehearse where other orchestras teur" commitment.' In a symphony ments have both skill and taste, fit the finished rehearsal. He also was' a man not orchestra, for instance, one is always play­ human voice, and, in certain ways, edify without passion. The overriding impres­ ing at someone else's behest, if not the human intelligence. I find it even sion of Toscanini was one of extraordi­ dictation. One therefore lacks the freedom more satisfying, however, that high nary emotional commitment to the of self-expression that great art always school and college choruses are singing product and an arching, overall vision where he found the passion to get where he was going, which was the last note of the piece. On the other hand, Szell found his happiness and satisfaction in th~ con- I struction of the piece and in eac~ mea- sure of every movement. A third person who also influenced me greatly waslJulius Herford, with whom I did structural and analytical studies. I think of the three, Experience Counts! Herford's influence most profoundly af­ fected my development. Concert Touring Specialists on 5 CONTINENTS J.B.: You created your fine choral/ with custom tours arranged in over 40 COUNTRIES orchestral discography with the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra Chorus and Cham­ ber Chorus-two volunteer ensembles. Experience the Tradition! What has been your guiding principle in Tuscany International Children's Chorus Festival maintaining their "amateur" status? RS.: It has been a guiding fact of life July 8 - 13, 1996, Doreen Rao, Conductor/Clinician rather than a guiding principle, in thatI July 14 - 20, 1997, Jean Ashworth Bartle, Conductor/Clinician there simply is not enough money to sup­ port a year-round professional chorus of Musica Mundi, Inc. 1 800 9471991 111 Main Street, Suite 2 • Los Altos, CA 94022 this skill and artistic competence. On Phone 415 949 1991 • Fax 415 9491626 the other hand, it is not a given that the

APRIL 1996 PAGE 11 Stravinsky's Symphony a/Psalms, Poulenc's been better equipped technically, I might experimentation can go on with young Mass in G, and Schubert's masses. I find have been able to do more, for instance, minds interacting with a collection offine this to be an even more significant sign of to save religious music in our time from teachers-ofcomposition, for instance­ artistic growth. the floods of mediocrity that have in­ it seems to me that such universities can J.B.: Throughout YOut career you have vaded it, and perhaps I could have found become these "primary institutions." been known as a champion of modern something even in the contemporary en­ State University, for example, has sixty­ music, through innovative programming tertainment fields (for instance, the vital­ five-thousand students in one locale­ and commissioning new works. How im­ ity and rhythmic vjgor of jazz-the which is the size of all but several score portant is it for the future ofchoral music intellectual virtuosity ofit) to displace the American cities. Therefore, such young, in America to encoutage creativity on the commercial elements that have so sadly devoted, intellectually active talent should part of ? Is there an audience vitiated our musical worship. create another leg to that institution of any more for new ideas, or, for that mat­ J.B.: Judging from your tenure as Mu­ influence. I also think that there are a few ter, much of an audience at all for intel­ sic Director ofthe Atlanta Symphony Or­ religious institutions, a few churches-a lectually and spiritually challenging art? chestra for twenty-one years and as very few churches-that have not been R.S.: There never is enough ofan au­ Conductor Laureate and Music Director mongrelized, churches that are interested dience for anyone who is concerned about Emeritus for eight years, do you see the in creative visual, dramatic, and musical the creative life and future of mankind. symphony orchestra and its associated cho­ arts, and that these three institutions to­ Personally, I feel that I've not done nearly ruses as the primary institution represent­ gether could form an influence, given so­ enough to stimulate commission and sup­ ing American musical culture in the cietal support, since they are the product port of the new and experimental, possi­ twenty-first century? as well as the formers and influencers of bly because I began so late in life to learn R.S.: I think that it certainly would be society. These institutions can't do it all those techniques that would have given one ofthe institutions ofinfluence. Equal simply by dragging along society. They me a very quick overview of the past ac­ to it, though, and perhaps surpassing it in have to represent a hunger and a desire complishments and then a quick way of time is the "multi-versity." When a major among the citizenry for that to happen. studying the daily flood ofcontemporary university can support two or three stu­ J.B.: The word "culture" is used to­ music that arrives at my address. IfI had dent symphony orchestras, and where day with all kinds of meanings, from Western Wind Summer Workshops in Ensemble Smith College, Singing Northampton, Massachusetts Session I: June 21-23; June 25-29; or all 8days Session 2: August 2-4; August 5-10; or all 8days

for information about workshops, recordings, publications and bookings.

The Western Wind Vocal Ensemble 263 West 86th Street· New York, NY 10024 212-873-2848

PAGE 12 CHORAL JOURNAL "cultural elite" to "multicultutal divet­ At the same time, a citizenry concerned conserve that which is noblest in human sity." You have said upon occasion that about its intellectual, artistic, cultural, and history. Also, insofar as there is a Creative culture is something that cannot be im­ spiritual life will find ways to increase its Principle (which some people may iden­ ported. What do you mean by this? support of that life. There's no assurance tifY as God), and ifman is created in that RS.: In the years when I was touring that art and music will escape the bureau­ particular image, then man has the re­ this country and others, I had the feeling cratic problems that we experience in sponsibility of being the Creative Prin­ that, although concerts were successful, we other affairs. I'm not so sure that great ciple. The perpetuation of those values were in a communityfor a matter ofhours, works ofhuman art can be subscribed by that have ennobled man and made him a rather than a matter of days, weeks, or a government edict. The great works of contributing benevolence to his universe years. Each community and each institu­ art will appear or not appear, depending and to his human environment is a part tion has to be responsible for its own on whether there are great people to write ofhis moral responsibility. growth and cultural life. Another way of them and a sufficient audience to receive J.B.: I've always admired your turn on saying it would be that simply because a them. Democracywill create its own spon­ the phrase "the Word made flesh," that person has enough money to buy a ticket sorships-and it's just that it should-but the inverse could be true. to a concert, he or she is entitled to under­ a great citizenry will see to it that the arts RS.: I believe that very strongly: that stand it. You have to bring more to it than become an important part ofhuman life. painting becomes spirit, becomes Creative the price of the ticket. Any relationship J.B.: You've ofren referred to the Cre­ Principle, becomes abstract goodness. with Beethoven or Stravinsky implies a ative Arts as the Conservative Arts. Is this commitment of more than money. One what you mean? -eJ- cannot buy this culture, one must earn it. RS.: Yes. That's obviously a play upon J.B.: Aside from your many conduct­ language, but what I mean is that the arts ing engagements, what other plans do you have for the future? RS.: I want to write two books. One is a technical and practical book about The perfect solution for a perfectperformance! choral tone, rhythm and enunciation, re­ hearsal techniques, and choral disciplines. SONG-LEARNING TAPES© The second would be a discussion ofabout © 1988 by Hammond Music Service a dozen major choral/orchestral works ex­ Rehearsal tapes help choirs learn music 5 ~imes faster! amined in the light of the relationship Perfect for learning oratorios, requiems, - any major work! between their musical structures and tex­ Also - inexpensive rehearsal tapes for All-State, Regional & Honor Choirs! tual qualities and matters. For instance, Each tape has a grand piano playing its voice part loud it's obvious that the Brahms is a in the foreground, all other parts soft in the background. different testament of both music and Call or write for a FREE catalog, demo packet/tape, and prices: faith than the Beethoven Missa solemnis HAMMOND MUSIC SERVICE Toll Free: 1-800-628-0855 or Bach's passion settings. They are fasci­ 235 Morningside Terrace, Vista CA 92084 FAX: 619-726-8053 nating and instructive in their differences, and there's a great deal to be learned from the relation of their musical languages to their verbal languages. I also want to continue as long as I can with the [Robert Shaw] Institute, which Vocal Jazz for All Ages was started in France in the 1980s for the with David Riley study and recording of the major choral repertoire. We also have plans to con­ June 24-28, 1996 tinue the series of Work­ Offered by nationally recognized arranger, , editor, and clinician shop concerts in New York as well as the David Riley, this workshop is designed for the contemporary ensemble videotapes created from it. director who works with various age groups in the vocal jazz idiom. Class activities will help participants develop choral techniques for teaching basic J.B.: Speaking as a working artist­ jazz styles, articulations, balance and blend ofjazz sonorities, and interpreta­ and former member of the National tion of jazz choral works for all ages. Class involvement activities will Council on the Arts-what role do you include vocal jazz.ensemble warm-ups, simple improvisational techniques, think government should play in arts and interpretation of literature provided by various publishers. funding? How important should support­ David Riley 2 graduate credits or noncredit. Meets 9:00 a.m.-4:30 p.m., Monday-Friday. ing the creative arts be to a society? MUSIC For more infonnnlion: Office of Summer Sessions, RS.: I think it should play the role Ithaca College, 120Towcrs Concourse, Ithaca, NY 1485{)"7141; that democracy deems appropriate. I don't AT think it can play any other role than that. ITHACA phone 607~274-3143; fax 607-274-1263; E-mail [email protected]

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