Socrates: 1 Let It Be . Surely Then , O Glaucon , on the One Hand , We Have Agreed to This ;

Socrates: 1 Let it be . Surely then , O Glaucon , on the one hand , we have agreed to this ;

543 Eien , dh , w Glaukwn , men wmologhtai tauta

that in The City, which is to be inhabited at The Height of Perfection , women are to be attended

th polei oikein akrwV gunaikaV melloush

in-Common , children and The Whole of Education are also to be attended in-Common , thus ,

koinaV paidaV kai pasan paideian einai koinouV , de

in like manner , both Their pursuits in war , and in peace , are also to be attended in-Common ,

wsautwV te ta epithdeumata en polemw kai eirhnh koina

but on the other hand , Their Kings are to be Those that have Excelled in respect to both

de autwn basileiaV einai touV gegonotaV aristouV en proV te

Philosophy and warfare .

filosifia kai ton polemon .

Glaucon: (he said) It has been agreed . (efh , Wmologhtai .)

Socrates: And surely we also granted the following ; that when The Leaders/Governors are thus

543b Kai mhn kai xunecwrhsamen tade , wV , oton oi arconteV dh

established in office , They shall Lead Their Warriors and dwell in habitations , such as

katastwsin(kaqisthmi) agonteV touV stratiwtaV katoikiousin eiV oikhseiV oiaV

we formerly described , which on the one hand , have nothing belonging to any one individual ,

proeipomen , men ecousaV ouden oudeni idion ,

but on the other hand , are held in-Common by all ; and besides such habitations , we also agreed

de koinaV pasi : de proV taiV toiautaV oikhsesi kai diwmologhsameqa

if you remember , what sort of possessions They shall have .

ei mnhmoneueiV , oiai pou taV kthseiV autoiV esontai .

Glaucon: (he said) But I do remember , that we thought , that no one should possess anything

efh , Alla mnhmoneuw oti wmeqa ouden dein kekthsqai oudena

which others do at present ; but , just as being both athletes-in-war and Guardians , they were

543c wn oi alloi nun , de wsper te aqlhtaV polemou kai fulakaV , deco-

to receive a reward for their Guardianship from the others , or their annual sustenance for these

-menouV misqon thV fulakaV para twn allwn eiV eniauton thn trofhn eiV

Services , and thus both take care of Themselves and the rest of The City .

tauta , te epimeleisqai autwn kai thV allhV polewV .

Socrates: (I said) You are right . Come then , since we have finished this , let us recall , from

efhn , legeiV OrqwV . age all’ , epeidh epetelesamen tout’, anamnhsqwmen po-

where (Book 5 449) we digressed to come here ; so that we may proceed again in the same way .

-qen exetrapomeqa deuro , ina iwmen palin thn authn .

Glaucon: (he said) That is not difficult . For you were explaining nearly the same , just as now ;

efh , Ou calepon . gar dielhluqwV scedon kaqaper nun ,

saying that The Description of The Nature of Such a City was Good , such as it was described

legwn wV touV logouV epoiou peri thn toiauthn thV polewV agaqhn oian wV dihlqeV

on the one hand , at that time , assuming that The Person who Resembles that City is also Good ;
543d men tote , tiqeihV ton andra omoion ekeinh polin kai

and yet , as it seems , you were still able to describe a Better City , and a Better Person . But then kai tauta , wV eoikaV , eti ecwn eipein kalliw polin te kai andra : all’ oun

you certainly said , that all the others were wrong , if This One was Right . Then , on the other 544 dh elegeV taV allaV hmarthmenaV , ei auth orqh . de

hand , you were saying that of the remaining forms of government , as I remember , there were

efhsqa twn loipwn politeiwn , wV mnhmoneuw , einai

four kinds , which also deserved to be Roundly-described , then , the defects in them , and in turn

tettara eidh , wn kai axion eih peri logon kai ta amarthmata autwn kai au

in their corresponding citizens , have to be seen ; in order that , when we have seen all of them ,

ekeinaiV touV omoiouV ecein idein , ina idonteV pantaV autouV

and have come to an agreement about which one is the best , and which is the worst person ,

kai omologhsamenoi ton ariston kai ton kakiston andra ,

we may inquire whether The Best Person is The Most Spiritually-Sound , and the worst ,

episkeyaimeqa ei o aristoV eudaimonestatoV kai o kakistoV

is the most miserable , or if it is otherwise . And when I asked which ones you call the four forms

aqliwtatoV h ecoi allwV : kai emou eromenou tinaV legoiV taV tettaraV

of government , Polemarchos and Adeimantos interrupted at this point ; and surely , in this way ,

544b politeiaV , PolemarcoV te kai AdeimantoV upelabe en toutw , kai dh outw

by you having taken-up the discussion , we have come to this point .

su analabwn ton logon afixai deur’ .

Socrates: (I said) You have recollected , most accurately .(eipon, emnhmoneusaV , Orqotata .)

Glaucon: Accordingly then , just like a wrestler , provide me the same hold again ; thus

toinun , wsper palaisthV , parece thn authn labhn Palin kai

when I ask the same question , try to tell me whatever you intended to say at that time .

emou eromenou to auto peirw eipein aper emelleV legein tote .

Socrates: (then I said) If indeed I can . (d’egw hn , Eanper , dunwmai .)

Glaucon: (to which he then answered) Well I am also certainly eager to hear what are the four

544c oV d’ h , Kai autoV kai mhn epiqumw akousai tinaV taV tet-

forms of government you meant .

-taraV politeiaV elegeV .

Socrates: (then I said) That is not difficult ; you shall hear . For they are such as I mention , and

d’ egw hn , Ou calepwV , akousei . gar eisi aV legw , kai

they indeed have names , and which are praised by the multitude ; the Cretan and the Spartan

aiper ecousin onomata, te h epainoumenh upo twn pollwn, h Krhtikh te kai Lakwnikh

form of government itself . And secondly , then there is that which receives secondary praise ,

auth : kai deutera d’ kai deuterwV epainoumenh ,

called oligarchy , a government inflamed with a mass of defects ; then , that which is different

kaloumenh oligarcia , politeia gemousa sucnwn kakwn : te h diaforoV

from this one , and comes next in order ; democracy ; and then , the forth and last disease

tauth , kai gignomenh efexhV dhmokratia , kai tetarton te kai escaton noshma

of a city , is surely that ‘noble’ tyranny , and which is different from all the rest . Or have you

polewV , dh h gennaia turanniV kai diaferousi paswn toutwn . h eceiV

any other form of government , that underlies any distinct species whatsoever ? For there are

544d tina allhn idean politeiaV , kai keitai en tini diafanei eidei htiV ; gar eisin

purchased power-bases and kingdoms , and some such governments , that are somehow between

wnhtai dunasteiai kai basileiai kai tineV toiautai politeiai pou ti metaxu

these , and one may find not a few of them among the barbarians than among the Hellenes .

toutwn , d’ tiV an euroi ouk elattouV peri touV barbarouV h touV EllhnaV .

Glaucon: (he said) They are indeed , said to be very many and very strange ones.

efh , goun legontai Pollai kai atopoi .

Socrates: 2 (then I said) Are you aware then , that it is necessary that there also exist

d’ egw hn , Oisq’ oun , oti anagkh kai einai

as many types of men , just as there are forms of government ? Or do you imagine that

tosauta tropwn anqrwpwn , osaper kai eidh politeiwn ; h oiei

governments are generated ‘from an oak , or from a rock’ (Odyssey 19-163) as the source , but not

taV politeiaV gignesqai ek druoV h ek petraV poqen , all’ ouci

from the manners/dispositions/customs of those who live in those cities , to which everything else

544e ek twn hqwn twn en taiV polesin , a talla

will be drawn , as if into a current ?
an efelkushtai wsper reyanta ;

Glaucon: (he said) To me at least , they are generated from no other , except from such a source .

efh , egwg’ OudamwV alloqen h enteuqen .

Socrates: Is it not the case then , that if there exist five species of cities ,

Oukoun ei pente ta twn polewn ,

the conditions of souls in individuals shall also be five .

ai kataskeuai thV yuchV twn idiwtwn an kai eien pente .

Glaucon: That certainly follows . (Ti mhn;)

Socrates: Surely then , on the one hand , we have already discussed in detail That One which an

dh men hdh dielhluqamen ton th

Aristocracy (Cretan-Spartan) resembles/is like , which we have Rightly pronounced to be

aristokratia omoion , on orqwV famen einai

both Good and Just .

te agaqon kai dikaion .

Glaucon: We have discussed it in detail . (Dielhluqamen .)

Socrates: Take notice then , after this , must we describe those who are inferior ; the lover of

545 Ar’ oun to meta touto diiteon touV ceirouV ton filo-

victory and the lover of honor , who are formed according to the Spartan form of government ;

nikon te kai filotimon , estwta kata thn Lakwnikhn politeian ,

then in turn the oligarchic ; and the Democratic and the Tyrannic disposition , in order that

kai au oligarcikon kai dhmokratikon kai ton turannikon , ina

we may see the most unjust , that we may compare them to The Most Just , that our inquiry

idonteV ton adikwtaton antiqwmen tw dikaiotatw kai hmin h skeyiV

may truly be complete , to see how at that time The Summit of Fairness/Justice/Righteousness ,

h telea , pwV pote h akratoV dikaiosunh

exists in comparison to the extremity of injustice , in relation to the Divinely-Spiritual-Soundness

ecei proV thn araton adikian peri eudaimoniaV

or the godless-misery of the possessor, so that we may either follow injustice, being persuaded by

te kai aqliothtoV tou econteV , ina h diwkwmen adikian peiqomenoi

Thrasymachus’argument, or Justice, being persuaded by The Word that has now come to Light ?

545b Qrasumacw h dikaiosunhn tw logw nun profainomenw ;

Glaucon: (he said) We must then altogether do so .

efh , men oun pantapasi poihteon outw .)

Socrates: Take notice then , shall we began , to consider the customs/manners/dispositions

Ar’ oun , hrxameqa skopein ta hqh

in governments , just as we did before , by considering them first in private persons , as being

en taiV politeiaV wsper proteron , h en toiV idiwtaiV , wV on

more conspicuous ? And thus now , on the one hand , the ‘honor-loving-form’of government is

enargesteron , kai outw nun men ton filotimon politeian

the first that must be considered ; for I have no other name to call it ; but it must be called either

prwton skepteon : gar ecw ouk allo onoma legomenon : authn klhteon h

a timocracy or a timarchy ; then , we shall consider in relation to it , the similar-type of person .

timokratian h timarcian : de skeyomeqa proV tauthn ton toiouton andra ,

Afterwards , we shall consider an oligarchy , and the oligarchic-person ; then in turn ,

545c epeita oligarcian kai oligarcikon andra , de auqiV

when we have looked into a democracy , we shall contemplate a democratic-person ; and then

apobleyanteV eiV dhmokratian qeasomeqa dhmokratikon andra , de

in the fourth place , when we come to the tyrannical city , and look at it , and in turn , look into

tetarton elqonteV eiV to turannoumenhn polin kai idonteV , palin bleponteV eiV

the tyrannical soul , we shall endeavor to become competent judges of that which we proposed ?

turannikhn yuchn , peirasomeqa genesqai ikanoi kritai peri wn prouqemeqa ;

Glaucon: (he said) In this way , both our contemplation and our judgment ,

efh , outw te toi qea kai h krisiV

would indeed be According to Reason .

an ge gignoito Kata logon .

Socrates: 3 (then I said) Come then , let us try to relate in what manner a timocracy

d’ egw hn , Fere toinun , peirwmeqa legein , tina tropon timokratia

would arise out of Aristocracy . Or is the following proposition simply the case ; that on the one

545d an genoit’ ex aristokratiaV . h tode aploun men

hand , every government changes , out of that element itself , that possesses The Laws . Thus , pasa politeia metaballei ex tou autou econtoV taV arcaV ,

sedition arises , when it arises , in this element itself . But on the other hand , while The Laws

stasiV otan eggenhtai en toutw autw : de kan

Are-in-Agreement/Are-of-One-Mind with Themselves , even though They are Very Few (4) ,

omonoountoV h panu oligon ,

it is impossible for Their Government to be moved/changed/disturbed ?

adunaton kinhqhnai ;

Glaucon: Yes , it is so . (gar Esti outwV .)

Socrates: (I said) Surely then , O Glaucon , how shall our city be changed , and in what way

eipon , dh oun, w Glaukwn , PwV hmin h poliV kinhqhsetai , kai ph

shall the allies/guardians/assistants and the rulers fall into sedition with one another , and

oi epikouroi kai oi arconteV stasiasousin proV allhlouV te kai

among their-own-selves ? Or are you willing that , like Homer , we invoke The Muses to tell us ,

proV eautouV ; h boulei , wsper OmhroV , eucwmeqa taiV MousaiV eipein hmin

“How sedition surely first arose ,”

545e opwV dh stasiV prwton empese , Iliad 16-112 or 1-1

and shall we say , that while They talk in a tragic mode , They are also playing with us in a light-

kai fwmen autaV traggikwV kai paizousaV proV hmaV eres-

hearted-way , as if we were children , yet surely , They talk Seriously , and speak Sublimely ?

Socrates: 1 Let It Be . Surely Then , O Glaucon , on the One Hand , We Have Agreed to This ;

Book 8