Socrates: 1 Let It Be . Surely Then , O Glaucon , on the One Hand , We Have Agreed to This ;

<h2>Book 8</h2>HSocrates: 1 Let it be . Surely then , O Glaucon , on the one hand , we have agreed to this ; 543 Eien , dh , w Glaukwn , men wmologhtai tautathat in The City, which is to be inhabited at The Height of Perfection , women are to be attended th polei oikein akrwV gunaikaV melloush in-Common , children and The Whole of Education are also to be attended in-Common , thus , koinaV paidaV kai pasan paideian einai koinouV , de in like manner , both Their pursuits in war , and in peace , are also to be attended in-Common , wsautwV te ta epithdeumata en polemw kai eirhnh koinabut on the other hand , Their Kings are to be Those that have Excelled in respect to both de autwn basileiaV einai touV gegonotaV aristouV en proV te Philosophy and warfare .filosifia kai ton polemon .Glaucon: (he said) It has been agreed . (efh , Wmologhtai .)Socrates: And surely we also granted the following ; that when The Leaders/Governors are thus 543b Kai mhn kai xunecwrhsamen tade , wV , oton oi arconteV dh established in office , They shall Lead Their Warriors and dwell in habitations , such as katastwsin(kaqisthmi) agonteV touV stratiwtaV katoikiousin eiV oikhseiV oiaV we formerly described , which on the one hand , have nothing belonging to any one individual , proeipomen , men ecousaV ouden oudeni idion , but on the other hand , are held in-Common by all ; and besides such habitations , we also agreed de koinaV pasi : de proV taiV toiautaV oikhsesi kai diwmologhsameqaif you remember , what sort of possessions They shall have .ei mnhmoneueiV , oiai pou taV kthseiV autoiV esontai .Glaucon: (he said) But I do remember , that we thought , that no one should possess anything efh , Alla mnhmoneuw oti wmeqa ouden dein kekthsqai oudena which others do at present ; but , just as being both athletes-in-war and Guardians , they were 543c wn oi alloi nun , de wsper te aqlhtaV polemou kai fulakaV , deco-to receive a reward for their Guardianship from the others , or their annual sustenance for these -menouV misqon thV fulakaV para twn allwn eiV eniauton thn trofhn eiV Services , and thus both take care of Themselves and the rest of The City . tauta , te epimeleisqai autwn kai thV allhV polewV .Socrates: (I said) You are right . Come then , since we have finished this , let us recall , from efhn , legeiV OrqwV . age all’ , epeidh epetelesamen tout’, anamnhsqwmen po-where (Book 5 449) we digressed to come here ; so that we may proceed again in the same way .-qen exetrapomeqa deuro , ina iwmen palin thn authn .Glaucon: (he said) That is not difficult . For you were explaining nearly the same , just as now ; efh , Ou calepon . gar dielhluqwV scedon kaqaper nun ,saying that The Description of The Nature of Such a City was Good , such as it was described legwn wV touV logouV epoiou peri thn toiauthn thV polewV agaqhn oian wV dihlqeV on the one hand , at that time , assuming that The Person who Resembles that City is also Good ; 543d men tote , tiqeihV ton andra omoion ekeinh polin kaiand yet , as it seems , you were still able to describe a Better City , and a Better Person . But then kai tauta , wV eoikaV , eti ecwn eipein kalliw polin te kai andra : all’ ounyou certainly said , that all the others were wrong , if This One was Right . Then , on the other 544 dh elegeV taV allaV hmarthmenaV , ei auth orqh . de hand , you were saying that of the remaining forms of government , as I remember , there were efhsqa twn loipwn politeiwn , wV mnhmoneuw , einaifour kinds , which also deserved to be Roundly-described , then , the defects in them , and in turn tettara eidh , wn kai axion eih peri logon kai ta amarthmata autwn kai auin their corresponding citizens , have to be seen ; in order that , when we have seen all of them , ekeinaiV touV omoiouV ecein idein , ina idonteV pantaV autouV and have come to an agreement about which one is the best , and which is the worst person , kai omologhsamenoi ton ariston kai ton kakiston andra , we may inquire whether The Best Person is The Most Spiritually-Sound , and the worst , episkeyaimeqa ei o aristoV eudaimonestatoV kai o kakistoV is the most miserable , or if it is otherwise . And when I asked which ones you call the four forms aqliwtatoV h ecoi allwV : kai emou eromenou tinaV legoiV taV tettaraV of government , Polemarchos and Adeimantos interrupted at this point ; and surely , in this way , 544b politeiaV , PolemarcoV te kai AdeimantoV upelabe en toutw , kai dh outw by you having taken-up the discussion , we have come to this point . su analabwn ton logon afixai deur’ .Socrates: (I said) You have recollected , most accurately .(eipon, emnhmoneusaV , Orqotata .)Glaucon: Accordingly then , just like a wrestler , provide me the same hold again ; thus toinun , wsper palaisthV , parece thn authn labhn Palin kaiwhen I ask the same question , try to tell me whatever you intended to say at that time . emou eromenou to auto peirw eipein aper emelleV legein tote .Socrates: (then I said) If indeed I can . (d’egw hn , Eanper , dunwmai .)Glaucon: (to which he then answered) Well I am also certainly eager to hear what are the four 544c oV d’ h , Kai autoV kai mhn epiqumw akousai tinaV taV tet-forms of government you meant .-taraV politeiaV elegeV . Socrates: (then I said) That is not difficult ; you shall hear . For they are such as I mention , and d’ egw hn , Ou calepwV , akousei . gar eisi aV legw , kai they indeed have names , and which are praised by the multitude ; the Cretan and the Spartan aiper ecousin onomata, te h epainoumenh upo twn pollwn, h Krhtikh te kai Lakwnikhform of government itself . And secondly , then there is that which receives secondary praise , auth : kai deutera d’ kai deuterwV epainoumenh , called oligarchy , a government inflamed with a mass of defects ; then , that which is different kaloumenh oligarcia , politeia gemousa sucnwn kakwn : te h diaforoV from this one , and comes next in order ; democracy ; and then , the forth and last disease tauth , kai gignomenh efexhV dhmokratia , kai tetarton te kai escaton noshma of a city , is surely that ‘noble’ tyranny , and which is different from all the rest . Or have you polewV , dh h gennaia turanniV kai diaferousi paswn toutwn . h eceiV any other form of government , that underlies any distinct species whatsoever ? For there are 544d tina allhn idean politeiaV , kai keitai en tini diafanei eidei htiV ; gar eisin purchased power-bases and kingdoms , and some such governments , that are somehow between wnhtai dunasteiai kai basileiai kai tineV toiautai politeiai pou ti metaxuthese , and one may find not a few of them among the barbarians than among the Hellenes .toutwn , d’ tiV an euroi ouk elattouV peri touV barbarouV h touV EllhnaV .Glaucon: (he said) They are indeed , said to be very many and very strange ones. efh , goun legontai Pollai kai atopoi .Socrates: 2 (then I said) Are you aware then , that it is necessary that there also exist d’ egw hn , Oisq’ oun , oti anagkh kai einai as many types of men , just as there are forms of government ? Or do you imagine that tosauta tropwn anqrwpwn , osaper kai eidh politeiwn ; h oiei governments are generated ‘from an oak , or from a rock’ (Odyssey 19-163) as the source , but not taV politeiaV gignesqai ek druoV h ek petraV poqen , all’ oucifrom the manners/dispositions/customs of those who live in those cities , to which everything else 544e ek twn hqwn twn en taiV polesin , a tallawill be drawn , as if into a current ? an efelkushtai wsper reyanta ;Glaucon: (he said) To me at least , they are generated from no other , except from such a source . efh , egwg’ OudamwV alloqen h enteuqen . Socrates: Is it not the case then , that if there exist five species of cities , Oukoun ei pente ta twn polewn , the conditions of souls in individuals shall also be five .ai kataskeuai thV yuchV twn idiwtwn an kai eien pente .Glaucon: That certainly follows . (Ti mhn;) Socrates: Surely then , on the one hand , we have already discussed in detail That One which an dh men hdh dielhluqamen ton thAristocracy (Cretan-Spartan) resembles/is like , which we have Rightly pronounced to be aristokratia omoion , on orqwV famen einai both Good and Just .te agaqon kai dikaion . Glaucon: We have discussed it in detail . (Dielhluqamen .)Socrates: Take notice then , after this , must we describe those who are inferior ; the lover of545 Ar’ oun to meta touto diiteon touV ceirouV ton filo-victory and the lover of honor , who are formed according to the Spartan form of government ; nikon te kai filotimon , estwta kata thn Lakwnikhn politeian , then in turn the oligarchic ; and the Democratic and the Tyrannic disposition , in order that kai au oligarcikon kai dhmokratikon kai ton turannikon , inawe may see the most unjust , that we may compare them to The Most Just , that our inquiry idonteV ton adikwtaton antiqwmen tw dikaiotatw kai hmin h skeyiV may truly be complete , to see how at that time The Summit of Fairness/Justice/Righteousness , h telea , pwV pote h akratoV dikaiosunhexists in comparison to the extremity of injustice , in relation to the Divinely-Spiritual-Soundness ecei proV thn araton adikian peri eudaimoniaV or the godless-misery of the possessor, so that we may either follow injustice, being persuaded byte kai aqliothtoV tou econteV , ina h diwkwmen adikian peiqomenoi Thrasymachus’argument, or Justice, being persuaded by The Word that has now come to Light ? 545b Qrasumacw h dikaiosunhn tw logw nun profainomenw ;Glaucon: (he said) We must then altogether do so . efh , men oun pantapasi poihteon outw .) Socrates: Take notice then , shall we began , to consider the customs/manners/dispositions Ar’ oun , hrxameqa skopein ta hqh in governments , just as we did before , by considering them first in private persons , as being en taiV politeiaV wsper proteron , h en toiV idiwtaiV , wV on more conspicuous ? And thus now , on the one hand , the ‘honor-loving-form’of government is enargesteron , kai outw nun men ton filotimon politeian the first that must be considered ; for I have no other name to call it ; but it must be called either prwton skepteon : gar ecw ouk allo onoma legomenon : authn klhteon ha timocracy or a timarchy ; then , we shall consider in relation to it , the similar-type of person . timokratian h timarcian : de skeyomeqa proV tauthn ton toiouton andra , Afterwards , we shall consider an oligarchy , and the oligarchic-person ; then in turn , 545c epeita oligarcian kai oligarcikon andra , de auqiV when we have looked into a democracy , we shall contemplate a democratic-person ; and then apobleyanteV eiV dhmokratian qeasomeqa dhmokratikon andra , de in the fourth place , when we come to the tyrannical city , and look at it , and in turn , look into tetarton elqonteV eiV to turannoumenhn polin kai idonteV , palin bleponteV eiVthe tyrannical soul , we shall endeavor to become competent judges of that which we proposed ?turannikhn yuchn , peirasomeqa genesqai ikanoi kritai peri wn prouqemeqa ;Glaucon: (he said) In this way , both our contemplation and our judgment , efh , outw te toi qea kai h krisiV would indeed be According to Reason .an ge gignoito Kata logon .Socrates: 3 (then I said) Come then , let us try to relate in what manner a timocracy d’ egw hn , Fere toinun , peirwmeqa legein , tina tropon timokratiawould arise out of Aristocracy . Or is the following proposition simply the case ; that on the one 545d an genoit’ ex aristokratiaV . h tode aploun men hand , every government changes , out of that element itself , that possesses The Laws . Thus , pasa politeia metaballei ex tou autou econtoV taV arcaV , sedition arises , when it arises , in this element itself . But on the other hand , while The Laws stasiV otan eggenhtai en toutw autw : de kan Are-in-Agreement/Are-of-One-Mind with Themselves , even though They are Very Few (4) , omonoountoV h panu oligon , it is impossible for Their Government to be moved/changed/disturbed ? adunaton kinhqhnai ;Glaucon: Yes , it is so . (gar Esti outwV .)Socrates: (I said) Surely then , O Glaucon , how shall our city be changed , and in what way eipon , dh oun, w Glaukwn , PwV hmin h poliV kinhqhsetai , kai phshall the allies/guardians/assistants and the rulers fall into sedition with one another , and oi epikouroi kai oi arconteV stasiasousin proV allhlouV te kai among their-own-selves ? Or are you willing that , like Homer , we invoke The Muses to tell us , proV eautouV ; h boulei , wsper OmhroV , eucwmeqa taiV MousaiV eipein hmin“How sedition surely first arose ,”545e opwV dh stasiV prwton empese , Iliad 16-112 or 1-1and shall we say , that while They talk in a tragic mode , They are also playing with us in a light-kai fwmen autaV traggikwV kai paizousaV proV hmaV eres-hearted-way , as if we were children , yet surely , They talk Seriously , and speak Sublimely ?

Socrates: 1 Let It Be . Surely Then , O Glaucon , on the One Hand , We Have Agreed to This ;

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