Royal Commission Into Trade Union s2

ROYAL COMMISSION INTO TRADE UNION GOVERNANCE AND CORRUPTION

Level 19, 55 Market Street, Sydney, NSW, 2000

On Wednesday, 5 August 2015 at 10.00am (Day 2)

Before the Commissioner: The Hon. John Dyson Heydon AC QC

Counsel Assisting: Ms Sarah McNaughton SC and Mr Thomas Prince

Instructed by: Minter Ellison, Solicitors

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 145 Transcript produced by DTI 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton? 2 3

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 146 D J HALL Transcript produced by DTI 1 was executed by its member, the Canberra Tradesmen's Union 2 Club Community Fund Limited. The two directors of that 3 body who executed the constitution on behalf of it were, 4 again, Ms Schoonwater and Mr Hall [CSI MFI-3 Vol 1 p 298] 5 6 Their execution of the constitution was an act of 7 establishment of CCW and if that chain of reasoning is 8 valid then that would make CCW a separate entity 9 established by two officers of an employee association, 10 namely, the CFMEU, and that conclusion would not be 11 affected by the fact that they purported to do so in 12 another capacity, though that point is certainly an 13 argument that can be urged against the chain of reasoning. 14 15 Another matter which would have to be considered - and 16 this was touched on as well yesterday - at transcript 17 page 15, lines 25 to 39, Mr Hall said, subject to 18 a presently immaterial correction or exception he later 19 stipulated [T 67:45-68:4] the whole of the structure on CSI 20 MFI-1 comprised separate entities set up to benefit the 21 members of the CFMEU and their families and the communities 22 they live in, but the end goal of all of them was "for the 23 end stakeholder which is our members of the CFMEU." 24 25 Now, since the entities were created to achieve that 26 goal, an inference may be open that the CFMEU acted in such 27 a way as to establish those entities, including CCW. So 28 much for paragraph (a) of the Terms of Reference. 29 30 Another possibly relevant term is paragraph (d) which 31 speaks of the circumstances in which funds are or have been 32 sought from any third parties and paid to relevant 33 entities. Funds have been sought from CCW to be paid to 34 CETW and CETW is a relevant entity, having been 35 established, at least arguably, by the CFMEU or its 36 officers. 37 38 Another term of reference one ought to have looked at, 39 which was mentioned in passing yesterday, is (g): 40 41 Any conduct which may amount to a breach of 42 any law, regulation or professional 43 standard by any officer of an employee 44 association in order to: 45 46 (i) procure an advantage for the officer 47 or another person or organisation ...

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 147 D J HALL Transcript produced by DTI 1 It may be, it may not be, that the conduct of CFMEU 2 officers was in breach of fiduciary duty and, therefore, of 3 the professional standard applicable to officers of an 4 employee association and in the course of that, advantages 5 were procured for various organisations. 6 7 The final term - no other terms occur to me as being 8 relevant - would be: 9 10 (k) any matter reasonably incidental to 11 a matter mentioned in paragraphs (a) to 12 (j). 13 14 It might be argued that the activities surrounding CCW are 15 reasonably incidental to matters mentioned in earlier 16 paragraphs. 17 18 In that regard, there are some features that already 19 emerge from the evidence. What their significance is might 20 well be controversial. One is that there is a marked 21 similarity in the documents considered by the Boards of 22 both CETW and CCW. Another is that both CETW and CCW 23 receive funds flowing from EBAs which have been organised, 24 fostered, encouraged and so on by the CFMEU. 25 26 Another is that funds flow out of CETW and CCW to the 27 CFMEU. Possibly another is that the two Tradies clubs 28 which own the shares in CCW's holding company, the Canberra 29 Tradesmen's Union Club Community Fund Limited, pay money to 30 the CFMEU. Another may be - this too is potentially 31 controversial - that the CCW Board minutes for 26 April 32 2012 record a prediction that the new EBAs with the CFMEU 33 "will contain a clause that employees allow their employer 34 to donate $1 per week from ACIRT contributions." That is 35 page 398 of CFMEU MFI-3 which can also be compared with 36 page 410 and page 439. 37 38 Factors like that may or may not lead to the 39 conclusion that all the institutions recorded in CSI MFI-1 40 and all the activities recorded in CSI MFI-5 and MFI-6 can 41 be said to be really connected. Together they are, in 42 a sense, all part of the same res gestae. That then will 43 be the position, these matters can be looked at in 44 submissions. I only raise those points as points that have 45 occurred to me overnight, though there may be nothing in 46 them, there may be something in them, but it is something 47 to be borne in mind. Thank you.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 148 D J HALL Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 MR BORGEEST: Thank you, Commissioner. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 5 6 MS McNAUGHTON: In relation to that point, can I invite 7 you, Commissioner, to receive into evidence two further 8 bundles of documents. One is the details of Office Bearers 9 of the Construction and General Division, ACT Divisional 10 Branch. On the front page it doesn't identify the CFMEU 11 but it is in relation to the CFMEU if one goes through some 12 of the balance of the documents and they go through from 13 2007 and following years. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The Office Bearers for the 16 Construction and General Division of the Australian Capital 17 Territory Divisional Branch from 1 January 2007 onwards 18 will be referred to as CSI MFI-7. 19 20 CSI MFI-7 OFFICE BEARERS FOR THE CONSTRUCTION AND GENERAL 21 DIVISION OF THE AUSTRALIAN CAPITAL TERRITORY DIVISIONAL 22 BRANCH FROM 1 JANUARY 2007 ONWARDS 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: That runs up to when? Up to 2 January 25 this year? 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, to 2015. There is also a folder and 28 this is called "CFMEU Fund CSI and Related Entities Tradies 29 Group Documents". These are the Constitutions of the 30 Canberra and the Woden Tradesmen's Union Club Limited and 31 also their financial reports for 2013 and 2014. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: These tenders are all on the basis that 34 legal representatives of affected parties can object to any 35 part of it if they consider it right to do so. CSI MFI-8 36 will be a folder entitled "CFMEU Funds CSI and Related 37 Entities Tradies Group Documents". 38 39 CSI MFI-8 FOLDER ENTITLED "CFMEU FUNDS CSI AND RELATED 40 ENTITIES TRADIES GROUP DOCUMENTS" 41 42 MS McNAUGHTON: Could the witness please be provided with 43 volume 2 of the six volumes? 44 45 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 46 47 MS McNAUGHTON: That is MFI-3. Commissioner, I presume

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 149 D J HALL Transcript produced by DTI 1 Mr Hall is on his previous oath? 2 3 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 4 5 Q. You understand you are bound by the oath you took 6 yesterday, Mr Hall? 7 A. Yes. 8 9

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 150 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 approximately 12 weeks and then a long rehabilitation. Of 2 course, I went and visited him, visited that worker and 3 also his employer of the time visited the worker as well 4 and through general conversation it was - the employer said 5 that, well, all his leave was running out, his sick leave, 6 his annual leave was running out and all other types of 7 leave, but the employer indicated that he was going to do 8 the right thing because he was a good employee, he was an 9 employee of youth, he was going to continue to pay him 10 until he could come back to work, but that prompted us to 11 think about the issue that there was a number of workers 12 who would get injured outside work time and unlike a lot of 13 different industries, like being a lawyer, for example, you 14 might do your ligament playing football on the weekend, in 15 your knee, but you could wear a brace to work and still 16 work, but if you are a formworker in the construction 17 industry it would be very hard to work with any sort of 18 physical ailment. 19 20 With also the ageing demographic of the population of 21 - the ageing demographic of the country, including the 22 ageing demographic of the construction industry workforce, 23 a lot of our workers were getting older and getting illness 24 and sickness issues, and when you look at some of the cases 25 or some of the - without getting into individuals' personal 26 lives, when you look at some of the claims against the 27 trust now, a lot of them are for things like cancer. So 28 the payments are made when people's leave runs out and they 29 can be paid up to two years and we've had a number of 30 people who have passed away while they're actually on the 31 scheme, but they have exhausted their normal entitlements, 32 et cetera, so it was a combination. 33 34 To summarise that, it was a combination of - it was 35 found in other parts of the country and workers enjoyed it, 36 and we identified that people were getting injured outside 37 work and it was not only an impost on the worker but also, 38 in most cases, good employers, which there are quite a few 39 in the construction industry, were taking that impost 40 themselves and the opportunity to have an insurance policy 41 in place that allowed for protection not only for the 42 worker but the employer was brought into place. 43 44 Q. When did this come about as an issue that started to 45 get your attention? 46 A. Probably in about - my best recollection is probably 47 a two-year period leading up to it there were discussions.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 151 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. What year would that be? 3 A. Two years before the last agreement, maybe in 2011, 4 2012, something like that. I can't tie it down to 5 a specific. It was a range of times you went to hospital, 6 a range of times you went to visit a worker who had been 7 diagnosed with cancer, so it wasn't sort of a snap 8 decision, it was the circumstances sort of built up around 9 it. 10 11 Q. When you were considering an insurance clause in the 12 EBA, what did you hope to offer workers? Can I suggest 13 some possibilities? They have already got workers' 14 compensation through the operation of law? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Therefore, you were hoping to cover, were you, what 18 was occurring outside of work? 19 A. Injury and sickness. 20 21 Q. Injury and sickness outside of work. What about 22 top-up cover such that it would be in addition to workers 23 compensation? 24 A. I'm not sure if that's in the scheme. 25 26 Q. But were you hoping to -- 27 A. No, not in my mind, but other people might have been 28 who were involved in it. 29 30 Q. So you were more concerned, were you, for what was 31 occurring outside of the working day? 32 A. In my primary concern, but then when you bring up 33 top-up, of course, that would be an added benefit that 34 should be looked at as well. 35 36 Q. Were you looking for a product which offered both 37 top-up cover, that is, to amplify what the worker's 38 compensation scheme would pay a worker for an injury that 39 occurred during work, were you looking for that as well as 40 what was occurring outside work, or weren't you in the 41 market for that top-up cover? 42 A. It was a discussion, it wasn't my decision by myself. 43 It was a discussion with the Assistant Secretary and it 44 was - because he concentrates on enterprise bargaining 45 agreements he probably had that view, but I had a view, 46 because I'm more interested - well, I'm interested in 47 enterprise bargaining agreements but I'm interested in the

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 152 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 welfare of workers in general, so I can't recall that 2 I talked about top-up insurance, but he may have, but 3 I would have been focused on outside work, sickness and 4 injury. 5 6 Q. How did it come about that you looked at the different 7 products available in the market? 8 A. Well, we didn't want to reinvent the wheel, so we had 9 a look at what other jurisdictions were doing and we went 10 and had meetings with them, the providers. 11 12 Q. You said "providers", plural? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. That's more than one company that was servicing 16 different branches of the CFMEU across Australia? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. What were the different companies that you looked at? 20 A. Coverforce, Windsor and JLT. 21 22 Q. When you looked or approached these three companies, 23 did you suggest to them what your priorities were and what 24 you wanted? 25 A. I can't recall exactly. I just remember having 26 meetings and talking about -- 27 28 Q. So you were involved in those meetings? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. Can I now ask you please to go to volume 2 and just to 32 orientate ourselves, the first tab is tab 38. Do you see 33 there that there is a letter from JLT, it is to the 34 Commission, and it is purporting to outline what the 35 products were that were provided to the CFMEU ACT Branch. 36 Have you had a chance to look at that document? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. Leave that to one side. We then have a JLT (CSI) 40 Discretionary Trust document at tab 39. 41 A. Is that 39? Yes. 42 43 Q. Are you familiar with that document? 44 A. I would have originally had a look at it, but I'm not 45 in a position where I have - like, I refer to it on 46 a regular basis, no. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 153 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Then at tab 40 we have a variation document, Deed of 2 Variation JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. If we look at a couple of aspects of that document -- 6 A. So this is the variation one? 7 8 Q. Yes. Going over to, first of all, the people who 9 signed it, page 484, this one has been signed by 10 Mr Jennings on behalf of CETW Limited. Do you see that at 11 page 484? 12 A. Mmm-hmm. 13 14 Q. Just for completeness, the original deed at the 15 previous tab but back at page 481, that was executed as 16 a deed by CETW Limited and signed by both yourself and 17 Mr Jennings; do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. You received advice when you signed that document, 21 did you? 22 A. Sorry? 23 24 Q. Did you receive advice before signing that document? 25 A. Advice from who, sorry? 26 27 Q. Anyone. 28 A. I can't recall. 29 30 Q. Going back to tab 40, at page 489, do you see there 31 are various definitions? 32 A. 489. Down the bottom? 33 34 Q. Yes. 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. And do you see in those definitions there's various 38 ones, going over to page 490, including "Scheme": 39 40 Scheme means the trust established under 41 this Deed to be formally known as the 42 JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust. 43 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. And "Scheme Cover" means: 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 154 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Scheme Cover means cover provided from the 2 Fund to meet Claims by Members in the 3 amount and in respect of risks ... 4 5 Et cetera. 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Back at page 486 -- 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. -- do you see there, on the title page, that 12 CETW Limited, as Trustee for CSI Trust, is the Promoter? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. What did you understand the promoter did? 16 A. Administration on our side. 17 18 Q. What made you choose this product over the other two 19 you mentioned? 20 A. I think - I think a lot of them didn't have the 21 sickness - I'm not 100 - look, my best recollection is 22 a lot of them didn't have sickness as part of it, like, 23 sickness, ability to pay for sickness. It just had better 24 benefits, it had better benefits, in my recollection, it 25 had the best benefits, and it also had the ability for any 26 distributions, in other words, any money that was gathered 27 through insurances, because I understand even though this 28 is all done - this part is done by Jardine Lloyd Thompson 29 and I don't purport to be an expert on insurance and 30 I don't have any influence over what happens there, but 31 there is a percentage of the money that is collected that 32 goes to buying a secondary insurance policy in case the 33 scheme overruns and then there's a percentage of money that 34 is kept there to deal with claims and at the end of it, 35 potentially, there might be money left over and the benefit 36 of that would have been that we could use it to assist in 37 keeping the costs down in the scheme, or activities that 38 would deal with issues that may come up from time to time 39 about profile under the recommendation and control of 40 Jardine Lloyd Thompson, but we saw that as a benefit where 41 not only money could be used to help workers having 42 problems, but also assist employers by keeping the costs 43 down. 44 45 Q. Just to also go back to page 489, do you notice that 46 "Member", in the "Interpretation" section, means the 47 Promoter and an incorporated body, person, company, trust

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 155 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 or other body affiliated with the Promoter which has been 2 admitted to the Scheme from time to time? 3 A. Sorry, where is that one? 4 5 Q. "Member" under the "Interpretation" heading? 6 A. Yes, "Member". 7 8 Q. What did you understand to be a member? Did you 9 understand the individual workers would be members or did 10 you understand that the companies signing up their 11 employees would be a member? What was your understanding? 12 A. I'd be honest now that I do - after I've had a think 13 about it recently, my understanding is that it's the 14 companies who sign up. 15 16 Q. Who are the members? 17 A. Yes, I believe, but I might be wrong on that. 18 19 Q. And then if you could go to page 492, 20 "Specific Duties - Claims", do you see: 21 22 Jardine must consider all Claims made 23 against the Fund and determine in its sole 24 and absolute discretion whether the Scheme 25 will, in respect of any such Claim, either 26 in whole or in part and upon such terms and 27 conditions as Jardine may consider 28 appropriate, grant indemnity from Scheme 29 Cover. Furthermore Jardine will, where 30 appropriate, take action to recover from 31 a Member outstanding money under the Claim. 32 33 Do you see that? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. If one goes to the "Purposes of the Trust", on the 37 previous page, do you see: 38 39 The objects and purpose of this Deed are: 40 41 5.1 to establish the Scheme; 42 43 And they're to establish and maintain a fund, provide 44 scheme cover and provide insurance cover, et cetera. Did 45 you have a good understanding of what the difference 46 between scheme cover and insurance cover was? 47 A. Yes, I just outlined that to you earlier, I think.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 156 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Can you just say that again -- 3 A. Jardine Lloyd Thompson is -- 4 5 Q. -- the difference between scheme cover and insurance 6 cover under this? 7 A. My belief is that - it's run by Jardine Lloyd 8 Thompson: JLT run it. They're the insurance broker and 9 they run the scheme. The money goes into - a certain 10 percentage of it, determined by them, goes to buy an 11 insurance product which has coverage, if you overrun the 12 pool of money that comes in from premiums. 13 14 Q. Did you understand that any worker that makes a claim 15 that is not otherwise fraudulent, or the like, was 16 guaranteed to be covered by the scheme? 17 A. No, because they explained that to us, that there 18 might be circumstances that they - and I can't remember 19 specifically, but there might be unique circumstances where 20 they won't make a claim. I think that's pretty, 21 unfortunately, standard in insurance. Insurance companies 22 are very hard to sometimes make a claim against. Very 23 good, they'll take their money but -- 24 25 Q. Did you understand that up to a certain monetary level 26 that a decision whether or not to cover a worker was 27 entirely discretionary in this particular scheme? 28 A. It's their scheme; they control it, not us. 29 30 Q. There was no guarantee, was there, that any worker 31 would be guaranteed to be covered up to a certain limit at 32 all? 33 A. I don't have control over Jardine Lloyd Thompson or 34 how they make their decisions. 35 36 Q. Did you understand that they made it clear - and we 37 will see some other documents -- 38 A. Yes, they do - yes, they did. 39 40 Q. -- that it is not insurance? 41 A. The point you are making is whether it was insurance 42 or a scheme? There was insurance that if the scheme 43 overrun, its premium amount - that they could make sure 44 they could cover premiums, cover any claims. 45 46 Q. Did you not understand that up to a certain 47 level - and we will come to those - that it was entirely

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 157 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 discretionary whether or not -- 2 A. Yes, I did understand it was discretionary, yes. 3 4 Q. But unlike traditional insurance -- 5 A. I'm not an expert in insurance. 6 7 Q. Could you please go to page 494, clause 16, "Payments 8 from Fund". Do you see there: 9 10 Subject to clauses 10 and 15, the Fund will 11 be used to pay: 12 13 It says "Court judgments", et cetera: 14 15 The premium payable to the indemnity 16 insurer(s) to provide insurance Cover for 17 Members during the Fund Year. 18 19 That kicks in after a certain monetary level is passed, but 20 it doesn't kick in from the beginning. 16.3: 21 22 the operating expenses of the Scheme for 23 that Fund Year, including payments to 24 Jardine ... 25 26 And it goes on, and it goes on also, do you see, at 16.3.2: 27 28 reasonable fees for Scheme management, as 29 agreed between Jardine and the Promoter. 30 31 Do you see that? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. That indicates that promoter's fees are available 35 under the Trust; do you see that? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. Can we go to the next tab at tab 41, "Scheme Rules"? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. These are for 2011. Do you recall seeing this 42 document before? 43 A. I would have - yes, I have seen it before. 44 45 Q. Do you see at page 504 -- 46 A. Sorry? Yes. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 158 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. -- one offer of Scheme Membership, the PDS, that is 2 the Product Disclosure Statement: 3 4 An offer of membership of the Scheme may be 5 made to any Potential Member. 6 7 And then number 2, "Details of Offer": 8 9 An offer of membership must include: 10 11 2.1. a disclosure that the Fund is not 12 insurance or a contract of indemnity. 13 14 And then 2.3: 15 16 a copy of these Scheme Rules ... 17 18 Must be provided, et cetera, as well as other things, 19 details of the cover, et cetera. You say the member, to 20 your understanding, was the company, not the worker, so was 21 it your understanding that it was not made clear to the 22 worker that this was not insurance? 23 A. I'm not involved in the EBA process; I'm not sure what 24 happened there. 25 26 Q. You just had no involvement or no concern? 27 A. No, I didn't say I had concern, that's your words, not 28 mine. I said I'm not involved in it. I'm concerned for my 29 members, yes, I am. 30 31 Q. And there are various other clauses which indicate at, 32 for example, clause 27 and clause 29 -- 33 A. What page is that on? 34 35 Q. Pages 508 and 509. It would appear that the member is 36 someone who employs employees. For example, 29: 37 38 A Member must as far as reasonably 39 practicable: 40 41 29.1 exercise reasonable care that only 42 competent employees are employed and take 43 reasonable measures to maintain all 44 premises, fittings and plant in safe and 45 sound condition. 46 47 So that accords with your understanding, does it, that the

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 159 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 members are, in fact, the companies and not the workers? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. There are various other scheme rules produced of 5 various different dates. Then we go over to tab 45 which 6 is the Product Disclosure Statement for the JLT (CSI) 7 Discretionary Trust arrangement. 8 A. Yes. What page? 9 10 Q. That is at page -- 11 A. No, I've got it, yes, 550. 12 13 Q. At page 553 "Promoter" is defined at the top of the 14 page: 15 16 "Promoter" means Construction Employment 17 Training and Welfare Ltd as Trustee for the 18 Creative Safety Initiatives Trust. 19 20 The third entry down: 21 22 "Scheme Cover" means the discretionary part 23 of the JDT Arrangement which is not 24 insurance. 25 26 And further down under "Trustee": 27 28 "Trustee" means JGS as the trustee and 29 scheme manager of the Trust. 30 31 And then further down, about two-thirds of the way down the 32 page: 33 34 The details of the Promoter of this JDT 35 Arrangement are: 36 37 Construction Employment Training and 38 Welfare Ltd as trustee for the Creative 39 Safety Initiatives Trust ... 40 41 Do you see that? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. Over the page at 554, "Brief Overview": 45 46 The JDT Arrangement is not insurance 47 because one element of the Arrangement

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 160 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 involves the Trustee's absolute discretion 2 whether or not to pay a Claim and how much 3 to pay. 4 5 And then a few lines further down, "The Insurance Cover": 6 7 The JDT Arrangement was established to help 8 manage the Members' risk of personal 9 accident and sickness, which occur outside 10 of working hours and for which Statutory 11 Worker's Compensation benefits are not 12 payable. 13 14 And then it goes on to say: 15 16 A Potential Member can become a Member of 17 the JDT Arrangement by signing the 18 individual Acceptance Form provided 19 separately and returning it to the 20 Broker ... 21 22 Et cetera. And "Note": 23 24 A Potential Member does not become a Member 25 until the Trustee has received the signed 26 Acceptance Form and Membership 27 Contribution. 28 29 So you notice all those things. Are you able to say 30 whether or not each of the member employers were provided 31 all of this documentation prior to -- 32 A. I'm not involved in the EBA negotiations. 33 34 Q. Yes, you have said that a number of times now, sir. 35 Are you aware whether or not the employers were provided 36 with this documentation? 37 A. Because I'm not there - this all takes place at the 38 EBA negotiation. Because I'm not there, I would not be 39 able to answer that question. 40 41 Q. You have no knowledge about whether or not this 42 documentation was provided, is that what you're saying? 43 A. Well, I would hope it would be, but I cannot 44 specifically say that every single time or when it did, but 45 I believe it does take place at that time. 46 47 Q. And then a few lines from the bottom, the third-last

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 161 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 paragraph, as it were: 2 3 Upon the closing of the Fund, any surplus 4 in the Fund will be disbursed at the 5 Trustee's discretion. 6 7 Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. And then at page 556: 11 12 Information about the Service Providers: 13 14 The Trustee uses various third parties to 15 assist it in carrying out its functions. 16 17 And then there is a "Claims Management and Risk Management 18 Services" firm there, "Broking Services", "Actuary", 19 "Auditor", "Taxation Agent", "Bank" and "Legal Advisers". 20 It doesn't set out there any work that the promoter does, 21 do you notice that? 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. Do you understand that part of the benefit of joining 25 this Scheme, from the CFMEU's point of view, was that 26 promoter's fees would flow to CSI or CETW as Trustee for 27 CSI? 28 A. Sorry? 29 30 Q. Do you understand one of the benefits of having this 31 clause included in the EBA and employers entering this 32 scheme was that a promoter's fee would flow to CETW as 33 Trustee for CSI? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. And that would flow in turn through to the CFMEU? 37 A. Well, the reality is it's used up well and far by the 38 admin, it's quite cumbersome. Several employers are having 39 difficulty coming to terms with paying it and as has been 40 given in previous Commission, some people are choosing not 41 to now self-insure and there is a lot of complexity in it, 42 so the amount of money that's being gained, it would be 43 lucky - it wouldn't meet the administration costs, but yes. 44 45 Q. Was that an incentive, though, to join this scheme 46 over other potential schemes? 47 A. The promoter's fee?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 162 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. I guess in a sense because it helped with the 4 administration costs. We knew there are always going to be 5 administration issues with things like this, so possibly it 6 was one of the incentives, yes. 7 8 Q. Do you see at page 559, just to be clear, the 9 JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust Arrangement? Section 3: 10 11 Risks Under Scheme Cover And Insurance 12 Cover 13 14 There are a number of risks a Potential 15 Member should be aware of under the JDT 16 Arrangement including: 17 18 1. The payment of benefits under the 19 Scheme Cover is at the absolute discretion 20 of the Trustee which means that the Trustee 21 may exercise its discretion not to pay 22 a claim; 23 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. There are other versions of this PDS which I won't go 27 to now. At tab 47.1, do you see a one-page information 28 sheet? 29 A. Sorry, I'm still getting there. 47.1, yes. 30 31 Q. Did you have anything to do with approval of this 32 Information Sheet? 33 A. I can't recall, but being the Secretary I would 34 have - any information that comes out with CFMEU logo on 35 it, I would be - I would have looked at. 36 37 Q. Where is the CFMEU logo on this? 38 A. Is this page - down the bottom. 39 40 Q. Page 488.1? 41 A. Yes, it's down the bottom; it's the old logo before we 42 changed. 43 44 Q. It is called the JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust. This 45 is the heading under the photo: 46 47 ... specifically designed for the

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 163 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 affiliated members of the CFMEU and offers 2 a unique and innovative alternative to 3 traditional insurance cover. 4 5 Is that an entirely correct statement, do you think? 6 A. It is a statement from JLT. 7 8 Q. Right. You don't know whether or not you approved it? 9 A. It's a document produced by JLT. 10 11 Q. "The discretionary trust has been fully endorsed by 12 the CFMEU". When it says "been fully endorsed", who was 13 the CFMEU relevantly in terms of that statement, do you 14 understand? 15 A. The CFMEU is the ACT Branch of the CFMEU and me as 16 Secretary, ultimately. 17 18 Q. Does that mean you, personally, endorsed it, or the 19 Committee of Management has endorsed it, or who has 20 endorsed it? 21 A. It is a document produced by JLT, so it would be 22 commenting on their document. 23 24 Q. Leaving that document aside -- 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. -- are you able to say whether or not the 28 discretionary trust was fully endorsed by the ACT Branch of 29 the CFMEU? 30 A. I cannot accurately recollect, but I would believe it 31 would have went through Committee of Management. 32 33 Q. It also uses, above that photograph, the word 34 "insurance." Do you know whether this page - or can't you 35 comment. Is this page meant to deal with the discretionary 36 element -- 37 A. This is a document -- 38 39 Q. -- of the scheme or the insurance part of the scheme? 40 A. It's a document produced by JLT and I'm not an expert 41 in insurance. 42 43 Q. It has the CFMEU logo on it? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. As you have pointed out? 47 A. Yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 164 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you think that makes it clear whether or not this 3 is the entirely discretionary part of the scheme or the 4 insurance cover which kicks in at a later point? 5 A. Like many things about law or accounting or insurance, 6 I rely on expert people's advice, so for me to comment on 7 this, I would only be speculating. 8 9 Q. Okay. You said, though, that you believe that the 10 Committee of Management endorsed the scheme. What advice, 11 if any, expert or otherwise, did the Committee of 12 Management get? 13 A. I can't recollect that. 14 15 Q. Can we then go over, please, to tab 48 and look at 16 page 589. Do you see there there is a blank acceptance 17 form, "JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust Arrangement Acceptance 18 Form"? This one, about the sixth line down, says: 19 20 Date of Trust Deed: 30th April 2012. 21 Fund Period: 30th April 2012 to 31st May 22 2013. 23 24 And then it has provisions for employer details. Do you 25 see that? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Then it has a section "Breakdown of Contribution", and 29 it has "Gold", "Silver" and "Bronze". Do you see that? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. What do you think "Gold", "Silver" and "Bronze" 33 related to? 34 A. I've never seen this document before. 35 36 Q. Do you see in the table, the second-last cell on the 37 left-hand side: 38 39 Creative Safety Initiatives Trust (the 40 Promoter's) Fee. This is an administrative 41 fee paid for the distribution, contribution 42 collection and other related services 43 provided by the Promoter. 44 45 There is a staggered percentage that is payable depending 46 on what level of cover is apparently taken out; do you see 47 that?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 165 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. So you don't know whether these forms were made 4 available to employers or individual workers, or you simply 5 don't know? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. Just quickly at tab 49, page 595, there is a provision 9 by JLT - someone at JLT - to someone at the Commission: 10 11 ... please find attached the current 12 employer membership list for the JLT (CSI) 13 Discretionary Trust. As discussed this 14 list will vary from month to month. 15 16 And that officer of JLT has produced from pages 597-598 a 17 list of employers. Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. You would not be able to say whether or not these 21 employers have been provided with the various 22 documentation -- 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. -- available to potential members? 26 A. I'd hope they have, but I cannot answer that. 27 28 Q. At page 599, behind tab 50A, do you see there 29 a document signed by Mr Jennings: 30 31 The JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust (JDT). 32 33 And at point 3 under "Notes": 34 35 Available surplus is disbursed for the 36 benefit of members following audit of the 37 JLT Discretionary Trust at the year end. 38 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. And that is an acknowledgement acceptance of the 42 finalised budget by promoter. Have you seen that document 43 before? 44 A. No. 45 46 Q. Who do you understand the members were that the 47 surplus was disbursed for the benefit of? For whom,

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 166 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 I should say. 2 A. Well, the employers. 3 4 Q. Was there some sort of discussion at Committee of 5 Management level? 6 A. I can't recall. 7 8 Q. To have any input into the Trustee's decision? 9 A. I can't recall that, no. 10 11 Q. Then there was another scheme, was there not, that was 12 designed for not just any worker who was covered by an EBA 13 but specifically for CFMEU members. Do you recall that 14 there was another -- 15 A. The second trust? 16 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. The second trust. How did that work and how did that 21 come about, to your understanding? 22 A. Again, on review, we were getting a lot of people 23 coming in and out of the Territory because it's booming, so 24 a lot of people coming from different places, and they come 25 with membership from other branches because you're a member 26 of individual branches around the country and when you come 27 to our Branch, we were finding it difficult. When you talk 28 to people, "You're going to work here for two years. You 29 know, we'd like you to be members of the ACT because you're 30 here under our assistance and you're going to have an EBA", 31 et cetera, and they were - they had tickets that had 32 different things attached to them, their Union tickets had 33 different benefits. They had travel cover for themselves 34 and their families. They had emergency transport cover for 35 themselves and their families and some other 36 different - all varied. Some had optical benefits where 37 you could get, you know, glasses for you and your kids and 38 stuff like that. We had nothing on our ticket that was 39 attached to it and the place was booming and a large 40 workforce was coming in, so we made a decision that we'd, 41 (a), for reasons to transfer people over so they didn't 42 lose their benefits and also as a way to increase retention 43 when the ticket runs out, if you've got these things 44 attached to them, you know, people go, "Well, I might be 45 going overseas with my family, I better pay - you know, I'd 46 better pay timely, in a timely order so my Union ticket 47 doesn't run out."

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 167 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. How did the money get paid into that fund? Did the 3 employers pay -- 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. -- the premium or did the Union? 7 A. No, the Union. 8 9 Q. Where did the Union get the money from? 10 A. Increased the price of the Union ticket. We put 11 the -- 12 13 Q. Just -- 14 A. On different occasions we have been raising it. If 15 you have a look, we've been raising it $1 a week for the 16 last four years and part of that money is being used to 17 fund these benefits and we put that out to members in 18 letters. When we explained it, we said, "We're putting up 19 Union dues, but additionally, we're going to add these 20 things." 21 22 Q. Did it, though, come out of, literally, the 23 general revenue account? 24 A. It did, but it was - specifically, we raised the 25 ticket to pay for these things, so we increased the 26 membership fees. 27 28 Q. But the general revenue account, of course, had pooled 29 funds? 30 A. Of course, yes. 31 32 Q. And some of those funds were coming from, as we have 33 seen, the CCW management fee and also funds from CSI? 34 A. And a lot of other places - membership fees, fees, 35 donations. 36 37 Q. How can you say, though, that the amount of money paid 38 to cover this second trust came from the increased 39 membership fees? 40 A. Because that is my understanding. 41 42 Q. You can put that folder to one side. Could the 43 witness please be provided with volume 3. 44 A. Thank you. 45 46 Q. Just to set the scene for this volume, this is 47 a volume of - they're not tabbed documents because they all

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 168 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 come from documents provided by JDT, or Jardine Lloyd 2 Thompson, and are related records, and they give, at least 3 in part, a bit of an indication because they contain 4 correspondence as to how the scheme seemed to evolve. 5 I will just ask you about some of those. At page 684, that 6 is the first document behind the tab -- 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. This is back in 2010. This would appear to be just 10 after or within a few months of you becoming the Secretary 11 of the Branch? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Is that right? And then you're in conversation with 15 someone from JLT Discretionary Trust's section of JLT Group 16 Services Pty Ltd? 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Do you recall being provided with a presentation? 20 A. Yes. I went to Adelaide. 21 22 Q. And then starting at page 685, it appears to be some 23 sort of PowerPoint presentation and this would appear to be 24 a hard copy version of it, would you agree? 25 A. That is what it looks like. 26 27 Q. Or was it done in hard copy? 28 A. I can't recall that. 29 30 Q. Then at page 3 do you see that JDT is a financial 31 vehicle? 32 A. Page 3 of the actual presentation? 33 34 Q. Yes, I am sorry, at page 686. 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. It is a financial vehicle. It's a trust established 38 at law, it's not insurance? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Do you recall being told that? 42 A. Do I recall this specific meeting being told that? 43 No. 44 45 Q. Then over at page 690, or page 11 of the 46 presentation -- 47 A. Yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 169 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. -- it says: 3 4 Summary. 5 6 The JDT provides similar benefits to 7 insurance, although on a discretionary 8 basis as opposed to a Contract of 9 Indemnity. 10 11 It is set out clearly there, sir. Do you recall being told 12 that? 13 A. I can't - this is 2010, this specific meeting? 14 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. No. 17 18 Q. But do you recall learning that information? 19 A. I've learned it over time. 20 21 Q. Can we go over to page 692 which is an email to 22 yourself from someone at JLT? 23 A. Sorry, I'm just having a little bit of trouble getting 24 to the pages. 25 26 Q. Page 692. 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. Do you see there are various details set out there, 30 but you are the person dealing with the product, no-one 31 else at this stage. Do you see that? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Under the "24/7" heading, do you see under the second 35 dot point, "Traditional", it is hard to read entirely, 36 I think there are some typos, but it says: 37 38 Following on [from] the above [point] it 39 may be better to do this under traditional 40 insurance and once we have built up the 41 numbers we can then move into 42 a discretionary trust model. 43 44 It is clear that at this point, at least, traditional 45 insurance was being discussed and a discretionary trust 46 model was being discussed with you? 47 A. Yes. These people who are the experts in insurance

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 170 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 were providing me with some options. I do not profess to 2 be an expert in insurance. 3 4 Q. Were you interested in why the discretionary trust 5 model was even on the table? 6 A. Back at that time? 7 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I can't recall that. 10 11 Q. Page 693, if you would please turn over to that, this 12 is - at the bottom of page 693, this is part of an email 13 chain and this particular email at the bottom of the 14 page is not between you and anyone, but it is about you, it 15 would appear. It is from Stephen Brennan to someone at the 16 Tradies, and we have seen he is a secretary of many things 17 and you have said he is the accountant? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. And Jeff Gaborit. Mr Brennan says: 21 22 Hi Jeff, 23 24 Further to last week's discussion I have 25 spoken with Dean and he confirms that since 26 the original discussion with myself things 27 have changed and the current proposal the 28 one that he is supporting (ie indirect 29 benefits rather than income flow). 30 31 Does that ring any bells as to what your concerns were? 32 A. What I would have been doing is getting advice off the 33 accountant. 34 35 Q. "Income flow", what does that mean? 36 A. That's what I just pointed out. The accountant, 37 that's me talking to the accountant. The accountant has 38 taken over and he's acting on behalf of me now. 39 40 Q. You are a highly intelligent man who runs a busy 41 Union. 42 A. Thank you. 43 44 Q. What do you mean by, or what do you understand was 45 being discussed in relation to you? 46 A. I can't recall. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 171 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. And "income flow" means nothing to you? 2 A. What you are seeing there - I've been directed to an 3 email talking about me that I don't have any direct - and 4 you are asking me to comment. It's between an insurance 5 broker and an accountant and what I would be saying at that 6 time is, "I'm not an insurance broker. I'm not an 7 accountant. I am trying to act in the best interests of 8 the members", but at that time Stephen would have been 9 taking over because he has expertise. 10 11 Q. Was there any discussion, as you sit here now, back in 12 2010 about different benefits of different types of 13 schemes, one providing benefits and one providing income 14 flow? 15 A. I have - I honestly can't - have no recollection of 16 that. It is 2010, 2011 or 2010. 17 18 Q. But income flow to the Union is something that you are 19 concerned about now and were in 2010? 20 A. Of course. The financial viability of the Union is 21 probably one of my number one concerns - in the top few 22 concerns. I'm the Secretary/Treasurer, so -- 23 24 Q. Just to fill in the narrative, at page 704, it 25 indicates that as at February 2011 -- 26 A. I'm not there yet; now I am. 27 28 Q. -- the Deed was withdrawn, so there was something 29 being drawn up and it was withdrawn. Do you see that? 30 A. Yes, yes. 31 32 Q. Do you recall the circumstances around the 33 Discretionary Trust Deed being withdrawn around that time? 34 A. It's because we realised that the administration would 35 be burdensome and we decided that the registered training 36 organisation was better resourced to deal with it. 37 38 Q. Why did that situation change over time? 39 A. It was never enacted. We made the decision by just 40 talking to the accountants and people, that this would be 41 very administratively burdensome, so we went to the 42 registered trading organisation that has a very similar - a 43 registered training organisation that had similar 44 administrative procedures, not exactly the same but they've 45 got more staff that do that sort of stuff. 46 47 Q. Are you saying that CFMEU dropped out and this idea

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 172 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 was taken on by CSI? 2 A. I can't recall exactly how it happened but, yes, 3 something like that. 4 5 Q. It wasn't to do with lack of critical numbers of 6 members at that time? 7 A. I don't think so. I'm not sure; I'm unsure. 8 9 Q. Can you turn to page 725. Do you see halfway down the 10 page there is an email from a person, Mr Harms, to a number 11 of people including yourself, do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. And then it is addressed to Dean/Jason/Clyde: 15 16 Further to our teleconference yesterday, 17 I have attached a series of documents below 18 that step out the processes involved in 19 running the Discretionary Trust (JDT) that 20 we have planned to commence 1 January 2012. 21 22 Do you see that? 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. It looks like the CFMEU are still involved as at this 26 date. Do you see that? 27 A. I'm not sure if I'm being involved as part of CSI or 28 part of the CFMEU. 29 30 Q. Can you go down to the second-last dot point, for 31 example. Do you see: 32 33 Graham Oliver - Divisional Manager - 34 Claims, Echelon: 35 36 Graham is the manager of the claims 37 management services (based in Adelaide). 38 Graham will appoint specific claims 39 management of the CFMEU of ACT JDT closer 40 to commencement. 41 42 It is being called at this point, it would appear, the 43 CFMEU Trust? 44 A. Yes, I think that this is a problem that they had, 45 that they were confusing the terminology, Jardine - JLT was 46 confusing. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 173 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. How did that come about? 2 A. From them? I'm not sure how it came about from them. 3 4 Q. You are saying that you were there not as CFMEU? 5 A. I'm saying that they kept on mixed-matching and 6 confusing terminology and it took a while for them to get 7 their heads around it. 8 9 Q. That's because, is it, that CSI and CFMEU are so 10 closely linked that it wasn't clear to someone dealing with 11 those two organisations which was which. Do you have any 12 opinion on that? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. Can you go over to page 728, just for the heading, 16 "JLT Discretionary Trust (JDT) Procedures. 17 A. Yes. 18 19 Q. Do you see, at the bottom of page 729, the diagram? 20 A. Sorry, which one? Page 729? 21 22 Q. Yes. I just showed you the previous page to show you 23 the heading. 24 A. Yes, sorry. 25 26 Q. Page 729 is a diagram. The right-hand side of the 27 diagram, "CFMEU ACT Fees", and "See note below" going to 28 the CFMEU? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. And then it says -- 32 A. But this is their document. 33 34 Q. Right. 35 A. And I just can't - we didn't produce it, did we? No, 36 it's not from us. 37 38 Q. And advised the amount of CFMEU fees that have been 39 allocated: 40 41 CFMEU ACT to provide a compliant Tax 42 Invoice made out to "JLT (CFMEU of ACT) 43 Discretionary Trust"... 44 45 It is certainly of the view at this point, it would appear, 46 would you agree, that CFMEU is the relevant body they're 47 dealing with. Do you see that?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 174 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. They're getting it wrong. 2 3 Q. Okay. 731, we have some correspondence. The second 4 half of the page, it is from Mr O'Mara at his CFMEU email 5 address. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes, we don't have separate - we only have one email 7 address. 8 9 Q. It is from him? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. And the "Subject" is, from him, "CFMEU of ACT". He 13 has it wrong as well, has he? He has copied you in. 14 A. Yes. Where does he say it's about the CFMEU? 15 16 Q. See halfway down the page, Mr O'Mara is the sender of 17 that email? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. And the "Subject", so he has presumably composed that 21 email, "CFMEU of ACT", and you are copied in. "Graham", it 22 is very hard to read but I think it says something like: 23 24 Please extend the current program to the 25 30th of April 2012. As discussed by then 26 numbers should be sufficient to move 27 forward. 28 29 I see Clyde and Craig seem to be getting on 30 top of the rest. 31 32 We will talk soon. 33 34 Regards 35 Jason O'Mara 36 Assistant Secretary 37 CFMEU ACT Branch 38 39 At this stage it looks like it is a CFMEU product, would 40 you agree? 41 A. From that, it's a CFMEU product. 42 43 Q. And then over the page should we be in any doubt there 44 is another CFMEU logo, which is presumably under 45 Mr O'Mara's -- 46 A. That's the old logo, yes, definitely. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 175 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Do you see that? 2 A. Sorry? I saw the logo. 3 4 Q. Do you say Mr O'Mara had it wrong? 5 A. I don't know what you're getting - I can't - what 6 you're inferencing from that, I don't get that, no. 7 8 Q. Do you say that Mr O'Mara had it wrong? 9 A. What you're trying to put to me, I'm saying that 10 I don't get the same conclusion, no. 11 12 Q. Do I take it from that you say that Mr O'Mara did not 13 have it wrong? 14 A. What you're - you're drawing - you're putting two and 15 two together and getting eight and I'm saying it doesn't 16 add up to eight and I'm not going to agree with you because 17 I don't agree with the premise of your question. 18 19 Q. The premise of my question, sir, is based on this 20 document which shows that Mr O'Mara -- 21 A. What, do you want me to say "yes"? I said "no" 22 several times. Do you want me to say "yes"? 23 24 Q. I am afraid I get to ask the questions. 25 A. I said "no". Yes, I said "no". 26 27 Q. I will just put these things to you, sir. The written 28 document says Mr O'Mara at his CFMEU address? 29 A. Yes. 30 31 Q. He has called the "Subject" "CFMEU of ACT". He has 32 signed off as Assistant Secretary of the CFMEU ACT Branch. 33 From the context of the rest of the document, it is clear 34 that they are talking about the discretionary trust, so are 35 you saying that he is mistaken in talking about the 36 discretionary trust as being a product for the CFMEU and 37 that he should have really said it should be for CSI? 38 A. I'm unsure what Mr O'Mara would be saying in the 39 context of that; I can't speculate. 40 41 Q. The next page, page 733, this of course is not 42 a document produced by anyone at the CFMEU but still it 43 indicates, if you look about the third line down: 44 45 We are looking to set up a discretionary 46 trust for the CFMEU ACT - however this was 47 put back till the 30/4 due to timing issues

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 176 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 with the CFMEU. 2 3 You'd say they were mistaken, would you? 4 A. I think the point - I can't comment on other people's 5 correspondence. 6 7 Q. Do you say that they were mistaken, sir? 8 A. It's the first time I've seen it and definitely the 9 - I don't - yes. Maybe they aren't; maybe they are. 10 11 Q. Can we go over to page 737. This also would appear to 12 be an email not between CFMEU people, but the topic is 13 "CFMEU ACT - Premium Split", and at the top of page 737: 14 15 Current income approximately only: $25,000 16 for 10/11 - up significantly however unable 17 to track at this stage. 18 19 This was a previous traditional insurance product that they 20 were talking about, was it? 21 A. I'm unsure. 22 23 Q. 24 CFMEU income: $33,000, 10/11. 25 Expected JDT no's is 400 to get going. 26 However given the CFMEU's indications would 27 expect 550/600 by June. 28 29 Agenda for next week's meet: 30 31 Discuss current take up numbers. 32 33 Discuss upcoming EBAs to be signed 34 (Steel fixers, form workers, cranes). 35 36 Discuss process of notifying JLT once 37 EBA is signed. 38 39 Do you recall anything in relation to the matters being 40 brought up in this email being discussed? 41 A. Sorry, who was the email to? 42 43 Q. The email would appear to be people within Jardine 44 Lloyd Thompson? 45 A. No, I don't. 46 47 Q. But it would appear that they are discussing in some

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 177 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 detail information that one would infer was given to them 2 by the CFMEU. 3 A. I have no knowledge of that. 4 5 Q. Can you please go over to page 739. 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Again, this is not between people, it would 9 appear - no, the top one is not between people from the 10 CFMEU, but the second one is to 11 [email protected]. Do you know who that is? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Who is that? 15 A. A former employee. 16 17 Q. It says: 18 19 Hi Clyde, 20 21 Update time, I have attached two 22 spreadsheets. 23 24 And it goes on in the second paragraph, second sentence: 25 26 You will see the list of companies on 27 board, how many employees are declared, and 28 [their] last and next declaration date. 29 30 It says: 31 32 I've also started the next round of 33 ring arounds for companies that are listed 34 as "For Follow Up" ... 35 36 And it goes on in the second-last paragraph: 37 38 I've also got a simplified application 39 sheet with our graphic design team, once it 40 is finalised I will send it to you so you 41 can have it signed as the EBAs are signed. 42 43 Do you see that? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. There was an expectation there that all the EBAs 47 signed would contain a clause providing for involvement in

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 178 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 this scheme? 2 A. In this scheme or they could have equal or better, 3 I think. There's all different - actually, I'm not 4 involved in the EBAs but yes, of course, our goal would be 5 to have people - our members having this benefit, yes. 6 7 Q. Do you know whether or not that is the traditional 8 scheme or the new scheme? 9 A. Sorry? 10 11 Q. Do you know whether this relates to the traditional 12 insurance scheme or the new trust? 13 A. No, no, I don't recall. 14 15 Q. The discretionary trust scheme? 16 A. I'm unsure. 17 18 Q. Can we go over to page 758. This is between, 19 apparently, people at Jardine Lloyd Thompson. The second 20 paragraph: 21 22 I have attached the details of the 23 Coverforce pitch to the CFMEU that 24 I convinced Jason to leave with me. 25 Obviously it's pretty useful so please 26 review. I also sat down with JJ after our 27 meetings and had a further discussion ... 28 29 It seems that, as you have indicated, around about this 30 time there were pitches being made by different insurance 31 companies. Does that accord with your recollection? 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. Do you see over the page: 35 36 Proposal for the Provision of Income 37 Protection Insurance for Members of the 38 CFMEU Construction and General Division ACT 39 Branch. 40 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Do you see over at page 761 -- 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. -- that they had an understanding of CFMEU objectives? 47 A. Who is this, sorry, Coverforce?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 179 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Yes, this is Coverforce. They had an understanding of 3 CFMEU objectives? 4 A. Mmm-hmm. 5 6 Q. 7 Our understanding of the CFMEU's objectives 8 for a group income protection solution is 9 to: 10 11 1. Establish a source of revenue for the 12 CFMEU; 13 14 Did you provide that, you or any of your colleagues provide 15 that as the number 1 CFMEU objective? 16 A. This is Coverforce's document. 17 I don't - I can't - I can't recall ever saying to someone 18 that was my number one priority. 19 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. It definitely would have been. I'm not denying 22 establishing an income to cover the cost of administrating 23 it, but I wouldn't have - I don't believe I would ever have 24 said that's our number one priority. 25 26 Q. Can you go over to page 783. 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. This is from Jason Jennings and copying in you: 30 31 - That we would like the JDT to start on 32 the 31st May 2012. 33 34 - The name on the trust deed will be 35 "[CETW] Limited as Trustee for [CSI] 36 Trust". 37 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. I am shortening that a bit. 41 A. Yes, that's fine. 42 43 Q. Then there is further discussion, so not involving 44 you, back over at page 785: 45 46 On the name ... would be JLT (Construction 47 Employment Training and Welfare Ltd as

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 180 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Trustee for Creative Safety Initiatives 2 Trust) Discretionary Trust. 3 4 And then there was suggestion of a slightly shorter title. 5 Was there any consideration given to trying to keep the 6 Union's name off the documentation? 7 A. Sorry, is this - which email are you referring to? 8 9 Q. I am now asking a general question. Was there any 10 consideration given to the need to keep the Union's name 11 off the documentation? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. The issue you raised yesterday that some people had 15 a problem with Union association didn't concern you in this 16 regard? 17 A. I don't believe it would have been 18 a driving - a primary driving factor in anything. 19 20 Q. Was it a factor? 21 A. I can't recall that but I don't believe it was. 22 23 Q. You have just indicated you were thinking about that? 24 A. I'm thinking about it and I can't believe 25 it - I don't - what I'm thinking is would that be something 26 that would really influence my decision? No. 27 28 Q. Was it only your decision? 29 A. No, but I'm only speaking on my behalf at the moment. 30 31 Q. Just for completeness, I will ask Mr Jennings more 32 about these documents, but at page 809 -- 33 A. Sorry, it might take a little while. 34 35 Q. -- we have some more apparent details about the 36 details of how the trust was to work. 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Just as an example, on page 800 -- 40 A. 800, sorry, back? 41 42 Q. Yes. The second paragraph: 43 44 The JLT Discretionary Trust ... 45 46 A. Sorry, I'm not there. Yes. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 181 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. 2 ... has been implemented to manage member's 3 self retained. 4 5 (i) $100,000 Any One Event, and 6 7 (ii) $274,400 in the Aggregate. 8 9 And then: 10 11 Purchase group insurance protection over 12 and above these self-retained levels. 13 14 Were you across that sort of detail? 15 A. No. 16 17 Q. Then at page 809 there are similar but different 18 amounts - no, sorry, similar but slightly different details 19 for "silver" cover, if one goes through those documents, 20 and we will take Mr Jennings through those. Then at 21 page 823, you see there it is an email from Mr Jennings -- 22 A. Sorry, I've just got to get there. Yes. 23 24 Q. -- to Mr Anderson: 25 26 Hi Craig 27 28 As discussed a number of weeks ago the 29 trust will be controlled by CSI not the 30 CFMEU ACT (please change) 31 32 Can I just ask you, even though this is not your document, 33 does that indicate that at one point it was going to be, 34 that is, the discretionary trust was going to be the 35 CFMEU ACT? 36 A. Originally, yes, when we were first talking. 37 38 Q. And what changed? 39 A. The administrative burden we realised that would come 40 with it. 41 42 Q. And what did you understand would be the 43 administrative burden? 44 A. Well, basically any sort of administration. We were 45 a very small Branch with a very limited amount of people, 46 we were small, so our core business was looking after the 47 members in industrial and safety issues, so we didn't want

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 182 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 to override our staff, overload the CFMEU staff. 2 3 Q. In terms of administering what was your understanding, 4 such that you changed this scheme from being under the name 5 of the CFMEU to being under the name of CSI? What was your 6 understanding of the administration? 7 A. Signing people up and following people up. It was 8 just -- 9 10 Q. But it came about, didn't it, because it was included 11 as a clause in the EBA? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. What was your understanding of additional work over 15 and above the agreement? 16 A. We were chasing up employers because they - and 17 I don't have the exact figures, but there were a number of 18 employers who even though they signed the agreement failed 19 to register. 20 21 Q. But did you know that in advance, such that you wanted 22 to take CFMEU out of the name of it and put it into CSI? 23 A. I didn't want any - I just didn't want any more burden 24 of administration on the staff because we're a very small 25 Branch, any form of burden. 26 27 Q. And it had nothing to do, are you saying, that the 28 promoter would gain regular money from members signing up 29 to the scheme? 30 A. No, and honestly, if that's something that could be 31 better, I don't - it costs money to change these things but 32 I'd have no problem having the CFMEU on there, but it costs 33 members' money to change it, that's all it would do. 34 35 Q. Do you think, just while we're on the potential 36 changing of names, if CSI was called the CFMEU Training 37 Provider and CCW was called the CFMEU Charitable 38 Organisation and the JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust was 39 called the JLT CFMEU Discretionary Trust, do you say that 40 that would have any impact on the level of people signing 41 up to the EBAs? 42 A. No, particularly after this. 43 44 Q. But before this -- 45 A. And I'm only talking about the present, that's all; 46 retrospect is a bit hard. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 183 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. I will put this to you, that CSI was thought up as 2 a name in order to distance it from its association with 3 the CFMEU and, in particular, to make it more difficult for 4 people to find out that there was a regular money flow from 5 the training to the CFMEU? 6 A. No. 7 8 Q. And that Construction Charitable Works again was set 9 up in a way that made it difficult for people to find out 10 that money was regularly being paid to the CFMEU for 11 management costs? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. And that JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust was called that 15 in order to - rather than JLT CFMEU Discretionary Trust, 16 was called that in order to make it difficult for people to 17 find out that there was a promoter's fee regularly paid to 18 the promoter? 19 A. That's interesting because on that premise of that 20 question, one of the biggest non-union civil contractors in 21 Canberra, what they do, they're called Guideline, they have 22 a non-union agreement. They're probably the biggest - just 23 because it's important for the context of this. They 24 follow our pattern agreement and give very similar terms 25 and conditions to their employees but have a non-union 26 agreement and at the last EBA they were following our 27 tracking, obviously, and they - they decided to offer 28 income protection insurance to their workers, and I don't 29 know the ins and outs of their company, but they were to 30 enter the market and they decided to choose this one, 31 our - and I had nothing to do with that; they're 32 a non-union company. 33 34 Q. But you don't know what they disclosed to people in 35 terms of where money was flowing? 36 A. I don't know but they - but their due diligence - but 37 they had to the opportunity to go to everyone in the 38 market. 39 40 Q. But sir, do you know what disclosures that company 41 made in terms of where money flowed as a result of various 42 clauses within the EBA? 43 A. That's quite interesting because they didn't deal with 44 us, this dealt with the people who run it, which is JLT, so 45 it would have been their responsibility at that time to 46 give the information about disclosures, not ours. It's 47 just an example, because we have nothing to do with them,

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 184 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 that why did they - the process, they ended up at the same 2 place as a lot of other people because it's a good product. 3 4 Q. Are you saying that the scheme that they entered into 5 had money flowing back to CSI? 6 A. Yes. They're on the list of companies, if you want to 7 go back, Guideline. 8 9 Q. And you don't know what disclosure or otherwise they 10 made? 11 A. No. It's JLT. 12 13 Q. You don't know, in relation to your own organisation, 14 what disclosure was made? 15 A. No, but I do know - you have showed me the forms that 16 indicate it. 17 18 Q. You don't know, though, in relation to the three 19 clauses, that is, relating to Built-Plus, relating to the 20 training and relating to the CCW, what disclosure was made 21 to workers who were voting on whether or not to agree to 22 the EBA as to money that flowed back to CSI and that the 23 beneficiary of the CSI Trust was the CFMEU? 24 A. Correct, because I'm not involved in the EBA 25 negotiations. 26 27 Q. Do you see that there's any conflict of interest of 28 your organisation, the CFMEU ACT Branch, in promoting these 29 clauses to be included in the EBA and not disclosing to 30 workers or, indeed, employers that the ultimate beneficiary 31 of CSI, which gets money from training and from management 32 fees and from promoter's fees, is the CFMEU? 33 A. Sorry, could I get that question again? 34 35 Q. Do you see there's any conflict of interest in the 36 CFMEU promoting the inclusion of these clauses -- 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. -- into the EBA and not disclosing to either members, 40 that is, workers, or employees -- 41 A. And members - and members in the sense of the trust, 42 too, yes. 43 44 Q. I am sorry, I withdraw the use of the word "members"? 45 A. Because it's got a bit confusing. 46 47 Q. Not disclosing to workers, either members of the Union

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 185 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 or not -- 2 A. Or not, yes. 3 4 Q. -- who are, though, involved in voting, as to whether 5 or not to enter the EBA? 6 A. Yes. If people ask questions, they should be 7 answered. 8 9 Q. Right. I am asking you about conflict of interest - 10 or to employers, do you think there is a conflict of 11 interest in failing to disclose the fact that the ultimate 12 beneficiary of CSI is the CFMEU? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. You don't think that's a breach of your fiduciary 16 duty? 17 A. I believe that if people ask - if people ask, they're 18 to be given the information. 19 20 Q. So, for example, a worker looks at the draft EBA; you 21 have called it a pattern EBA? 22 A. I have, have I? 23 24 Q. Yes, just a few questions and answers ago. 25 A. Did I? 26 27 Q. You said that company got hold of your pattern EBA. 28 They look at that and they think, "Well, I don't want to 29 use CSI as my training organisation because there's 30 a really good course that's run by another trainer"? 31 A. One that we offer or -- 32 33 Q. No, by another training organisation, where the money 34 doesn't go to CSI? 35 A. No, I'm just trying to differentiate because it's 36 important. Is it a course that we offer or one that we 37 don't offer? 38 39 Q. Let's say one that you offer. 40 A. Okay. So the Asbestos Card is a good one. 41 42 Q. But they want to go to another one because they have 43 heard it is really great? 44 A. Like the MBA, yes. 45 46 Q. Do you say that a worker would be properly informed 47 and properly supported by their Union representative, or

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 186 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 the Union representative, if the Union is promoting CSI 2 without disclosing that the Union gets money from CSI? Do 3 you think that the worker is properly informed? 4 A. Sorry, there were about three questions in that. Can 5 you break it up for me? 6 7 Q. If the worker wants to do another course -- 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. -- but the standard EBA includes CSI as the trainer -- 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. -- and the worker is not informed that money actually 14 flows through to CSI and the ultimate beneficiary is the 15 CFMEU, do you think the worker is properly informed to 16 whether or not that worker should enter that EBA, or should 17 the Union be saying, "Sure, if you want to do that other 18 course, do the other course and we'll change this pattern 19 EBA to allow another training organisation to be included"? 20 A. Sorry, I don't - can you do that one again, sorry? 21 22 Q. I will rephrase it. 23 24 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. I think the length of the 25 questions is -- 26 A. Yes, sorry, there's multiple questions. 27 28 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Ideally speaking, a worker should be 29 able to choose whatever training organisation they like, 30 shouldn't they? 31 A. Yes. Yes. 32 33 Q. And if they say, "I want to use ABC training, not CSI 34 training" - yes? They say that. 35 A. They say that to who? 36 37 Q. To the Union organiser or representative who is 38 negotiating the EBA with the employer? 39 A. They get that opportunity, yes. 40 41 Q. They get that opportunity? 42 A. I believe so. 43 44 Q. Then why would not the Union representative who is 45 negotiating on behalf of the employee - the Union 46 representative should say, "Sure, you can go with ABC 47 training and we'll change the clause in the EBA"?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 187 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes, it's about quality training. There's some 2 serious problems in the construction industry. To give an 3 example, at -- 4 5 Q. No, no, can I just ask you this, though. 6 A. Ok, cut me off. 7 8 Q. If the worker came to the Union representative and 9 said, "I want to use ABC training, not CSI training", do 10 you say that there is no conflict of interest, as that 11 Union representative standing there? 12 A. I think the issue is that we don't enforce this term 13 in our agreement. We've never prosecuted anyone for it. 14 15 Q. Do you say there's no conflict of interest? 16 A. I think it's about - what I believe it is about is, 17 no, there is no conflict of interest because it's about 18 trying to achieve a high quality of training in the 19 construction industry. 20 21 Q. So you don't believe there's any conflict of interest? 22 A. No, because what - if you understand the process when 23 it's happening, when the EBA is happening, that it's an 24 agreement that we're negotiating on behalf of workers with 25 their employer and any representatives they've got to 26 negotiate on their behalf. When you go through this, we 27 get to have the discussion and the vote and workers agree 28 at that time that they want to be trained by CSI; that's 29 the idea and they vote upon it, it is their decision. If 30 they don't want it, yes, it can be taken out, if they don't 31 want it, and they vote on it at that time. 32 33 Q. But surely the Union representative who knows that the 34 money is flowing back to the CFMEU would be trying to get 35 CSI as the trainer and not ABC as the trainer? 36 A. The predominant reason would be to ensure that 37 high-quality training takes place. 38 39 Q. But you see there is a financial benefit -- 40 A. There is -- 41 42 Q. -- flowing through to the Union for not including CSI? 43 A. There is, but it's not its primary - but it's not its 44 primary - it's not the primary objective. 45 46 Q. You said you understood what a fiduciary duty was? 47 A. Yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 188 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Isn't it in the best interests of the worker the 3 worker going to the course that the worker wants to go to 4 and not be influenced by the fact that CSI gives money back 5 to the CFMEU? 6 A. It's still a negotiated process and they vote upon it. 7 8 Q. But are they properly informed that CSI gives money 9 back to the CFMEU? 10 A. I believe they would be. I'm not part of that process 11 but I believe they would be. 12 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. Who is part of that process? 14 A. Organisers and the Assistant Secretary runs that part 15 and individual organisers, depending on what area of the 16 industry is, but predominantly the Assistant Secretary. 17 18 Q. Mr O'Mara, Mr Vitler? 19 A. Only in - look, Mr O'Mara predominantly is in charge 20 of that and then different people, different organisers 21 have different areas; like, they have different trades that 22 they do. 23 24 Q. I know he's not around with the Union any more, but 25 Mr Kivalu was he engaged in EBA negotiations? 26 A. Some. All organisers would be involved. All 27 organisers would have some EBAs they have to negotiate, as 28 well as the legal team, industrial officers. It's a core 29 business - a core part of the business is the EBA and it 30 takes a long - it's quite a process. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The witness is giving sort of 33 generic descriptions of organisers and so forth. I wonder 34 if we took a year out of CSI MFI-7 and just worked out 35 which actual people, but I am in your hands, Ms McNaughton. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: If we go, perhaps, to the year 2013, if 38 a copy could be provided to the witness of MFI-7. 39 40 Q. While we are waiting for that, sir, is it ever the 41 case that a training company other than CSI has been 42 included into the EBA? 43 A. Not to my knowledge. 44 45 Q. Has any other charity ever been included into an EBA? 46 A. Not to my knowledge. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 189 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. And has any other insurance provider been included 2 into an EBA? 3 A. No. 4 5 Q. And you say that there's no conflict of interest that 6 you can see arising from the insistence on those companies 7 over and above other companies, even though CSI was paying 8 the CFMEU, the CFMEU being its beneficiary under the Trust? 9 A. I can't see its conflict of interest, no. 10 11 Q. Going to the year 2013 - do you have that in front of 12 you? 13 A. Sorry. What page is that on? 14 15 Q. That is probably towards the back of the bundle which 16 ends at 2015. It is about 10 pages in from the back of the 17 bundle. 18 A. Sorry, I'll get there. 2013 you want? 19 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Yes. That's this? 22 23 Q. "Office bearers as at 2 January 2013", I think that's 24 right, does it say the third line down? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. We've got here two pages and one line on the last 28 page. We've got Branch Secretary, Dean Hall. You say you 29 don't do EBA negotiations? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. Branch Assistant Secretary, Jason O'Mara. Does he? 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. The Branch Treasurer is you and the Branch President 36 is Mr Jennings. Does he do any EBA negotiations? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. Branch Vice-President Anthony Vitler - does he? 40 A. I guess the best thing is, because I'm not involved in 41 it, would be to ask Mr O'Mara. 42 43 Q. You don't know who deals with them? 44 A. Well, I believe every single - well, going down here, 45 okay, Organiser, yes, Anthony Vitler; Mark, no; Duncan, no; 46 Des, no; Rod, no; Leon, no; Tim, no. Brett was an 47 organiser for a period but he's not any more, so he would

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 190 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 have. Halafihi Kivalu would have, not an organiser any 2 more but would have done it; Trevor, no; Jeff, no; Ken, 3 yes, he's an organiser; Richard, no; Jamie, no; Gary, no; 4 Mark, no; Marcus, no; Daniel, no; Shane, yes, industrial 5 officer; Mark, no; Steven, no; Josh, no; Dean, that's me. 6 Jason already indicated. 7 8 Q. Are there any people that are not on this list who 9 have a role in negotiating EBAs? 10 A. Basically, to make it easier, because you can pull it 11 up, is all the officials, all the organisers in the CFMEU 12 ACT Branch, our industrial officer, Shane, our two legal 13 officers, Gary and Ros. 14 15 Q. Is that Garry Hamilton? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. And who is Ros? 19 A. Ros is just someone who has just started with us, 20 she's a lawyer. 21 22 Q. But as at 2013 she wasn't there? 23 A. No. 24 25 Q. Do you know - and tell the Commission if you 26 don't - is there a procedure, even if you don't participate 27 in it, as to the negotiation of EBAs every time a round 28 comes around? 29 A. Yes, there is a procedure and I'm not - I'll be honest 30 with you, I'm not familiar with it, but I know there is 31 a procedure. It's just mainly following the requirements 32 I think of, you know, all the forms, F17s and all that sort 33 of thing. 34 35 Q. The pattern EBA that you have referred to, was that 36 approved at Committee of Management level? 37 A. I'm unsure. 38 39 Q. What do you mean you're unsure? 40 A. Whether that went through that process or not. 41 Whether it goes through that at that level. 42 43 Q. Are you on the Committee of Management? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Well, how is it that you're unsure of whether the 47 pattern EBA was approved by the Committee of Management?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 191 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. I can't remember it. I can't remember. 2 3 Q. It is a pretty core part of your business, isn't it? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. So you can't remember? 7 A. No, I can't. It may well have been. 8 9 Q. May well have been? 10 A. I can't remember. In my belief, it probably - I 11 honestly can't remember. 12 13 MS McNAUGHTON: Is that a convenient time? 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The hearing will resume at five 16 to 12. 17 18 SHORT ADJOURNMENT 19 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 21 22 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. If the witness could be 23 provided with MFI-4, please. 24 25 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to keep that one? 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Volume 4 of what you have before you. 28 A. Okay. Thank you. 29 30 Q. If you would be kind enough, sir, to turn to the very 31 last tab, tab 75. 32 A. Sorry, I'm just struggling. 33 34 Q. Do you see that page 1644 is the CFMEU Construction 35 and General Division - ACT Branch Financial Report for the 36 year ended 31 December 2014? 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. So that is the most recent Financial Report available. 40 We can there see, if we turn over to page 1651, the 41 Statement of Comprehensive Income. Do you see that? 42 A. Yes. 43 44 Q. We have "Membership subscriptions" 1.3 or so million 45 dollars in 2014, "Advertising income", and other ones 46 coming down there and we've also got "Other Revenue" 47 $575,322 and, above that, we have "Profits from Trusts" for

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 192 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 $825,000 or so? 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. So the three main sources of income for the Union as 5 of last year would appear to be membership, the trust 6 income or profit and "Other Revenue." Now, "Other Revenue" 7 is mainly, do you agree, the donation from the Canberra 8 Trade Union Club? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Of those three large amounts, that's the smallest of 12 those amounts? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. In terms of building revenue, do you regard it as 16 important, for example, to increase membership 17 subscriptions? 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. There is an effort made to do that, to your knowledge? 21 A. To recruit members and also we increase the actual 22 amounts. 23 24 Q. Are you able to say is there any strategy or plan at a 25 Committee of Management level in relation to increasing 26 membership? 27 A. There's a report about it every meeting. And also we 28 have organisers' meetings where we talk about it. It's one 29 of the first things. 30 31 Q. So it is a priority? 32 A. Yes. Grow the Union. 33 34 Q. In terms of the other revenue, if we can go to Note 2 35 at page 1662, and do you see there under "Note 2 - Revenue" 36 it splits that up and "Donations" are (c) $560,362, do you 37 see that? 38 A. Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. 39 40 Q. On the chart, for what it's worth, the donation from 41 the Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Limited for 2014 - 42 CSI MFI-16 [sic]; scil "6", that chart -- 43 A. Sorry, which one, 2014? Yes. 44 45 Q. We have the donation for that year: $555,817? 46 A. Sorry, that one is from the? 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 193 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club Limited? 2 A. To? 3 4 Q. To the CFMEU. 5 A. Yes, it comes down. 6 7 Q. So that would appear to be the bulk of those 8 donations? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. I beg your pardon, MFI-6. 12 A. Sorry, which one is that one? 13 14 Q. I just misnamed it. It is MFI-6. 15 A. I haven't got the "MFI" things on top of them, sorry. 16 Just when you say that, I don't have that document. 17 18 Q. Sorry, it was just for the record. 19 A. The 2014 one? 20 21 Q. Yes, 2014 which is called MFI-6. 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. If one then goes to page 1671 in the large volume in 25 front of you -- 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. -- we've got on that page: 29 30 Receivables from other reporting units 31 32 CFMEU Construction and General NSW $8,429 33 34 CFMEU Construction and General Head Office 35 $43,273. 36 37 That money comes direct, does it, from head office, that 38 $43,000 amount? 39 A. I'd have to ask the accountant what that was. Sorry. 40 41 Q. Then we have Note 2 -- 42 A. Usually it goes the other way because we pay 43 capitation fees the other way. If you like, I can ask 44 someone. 45 46 Q. Then "Note 17 - Economic Dependency": 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 194 D J HALL (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 The continuing operation of the Union is 2 dependent upon the financial support by the 3 Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club to the 4 CFMEU ACT Branch. The previous support 5 from [that club] included financial support 6 totalling $555,817 (2013: $718,320) for 7 the year ended 31 December 2014. 8 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. That is the smallest of the three large figures. Do 12 you know why economic dependency is said in those terms? 13 A. I think for the purposes of - like an underwriting - 14 they're always there to underwrite us. 15 16 Q. Sorry, can you just repeat that? 17 A. That is probably the wrong terminology. I think we 18 can always - you know, even though we can't - even though 19 we can't count on it, we always know that they are there to 20 help us if they need us - if we need it. 21 22 Q. But it's said specifically in the Note that it is 23 dependent upon this particular donation; not the income or 24 the money flowing through from the club? 25 A. I don't know why the accountant wrote it that way. 26 27 Q. And not from membership? 28 A. I don't know why that - yes, sorry. 29 30 MS McNAUGHTON: They are my questions. Thank you. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Borgeest? 33 34

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 195 D J HALL (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Prior to that mandate being made by government, did 2 CSI conduct that training? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. Does the ACT Government often impose requirements that 6 particular kinds of training be undertaken by all 7 participants in the industry? 8 A. No. 9 10 Q. Are you aware of that having happened before? 11 A. The only other time, in my memory, is the General 12 Induction card. 13 14 Q. To your knowledge why did the government mandate the 15 completion of this particular course? 16 A. The ACT has a particularly bad problem with both 17 bonded and friable asbestos. The people here who have been 18 in Canberra for three weeks, understand that Mr Fluffy, a 19 proprietor of insulation, went through the Territory in 20 the '60s and '70s and pumped basically friable asbestos 21 into people's roof cavities and walls, so it's a serious 22 issue. Additionally because when the Territory was built 23 and expanded, a lot of the houses in the Territory were 24 constructed of fibro or bonded asbestos. It was seen as 25 a quick and cheap product, so we have a lot of - and a lot 26 of worker cottages, et cetera, were made out of bonded 27 asbestos and, as a result, a lot of them remain or 28 fragments of that remain. 29 30 There was a boom in parts of Canberra when asbestos 31 was a preferred product for the use in the '70s and '80s, 32 it was a preferred product for the use in eaves and in 33 showers and kitchens because of its properties of not 34 rotting and not easily combusting, so there's a lot of 35 houses in the Territory, existing houses that have it. 36 37 Additionally, when new suburbs or renovations were 38 done, when the worker cottages were demolished, builders of 39 the time illegally dumped large amounts of asbestos in 40 areas of the Territory and it's not uncommon, 41 unfortunately, in these cases for people to be excavating 42 construction sites and come across illegal unmapped 43 asbestos dumps. It's not uncommon for workers to be 44 working on both commercial and residential buildings and 45 come in contact with both bonded and friable asbestos, and 46 because of these combined factors, it is a particularly bad 47 problem in the jurisdiction of the ACT.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 196 D J HALL (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. And Queanbeyan too? 3 A. Queanbeyan to a lesser extent. Mr Fluffy did pump 4 into there. I am not downplaying the suffering of those 5 poor people in Queanbeyan, but there was - for Canberra, 6 I think they have identified 150-odd houses but one of 7 those was a unit block in Queanbeyan. In Canberra, it's 8 well in excess of 1,000 houses with it, yes. 9 10 MR BORGEEST: Q. Mr Hall, speaking now of the period 11 when CSI was delivering Asbestos Awareness training before 12 the mandate came in, are you able to say generally who it 13 was who received training of that sort? 14 A. Predominantly - well, almost exclusively apprentices. 15 16 Q. I think your evidence earlier was that for those 17 apprentices undertaking the Asbestos Awareness program, 18 before it became mandated, their training costs were partly 19 met by Construction Charitable Works? 20 A. Correct. 21 22 Q. Is there a particular reason why it was supported by 23 Construction Charitable Works? 24 A. Mainly because we've unfortunately dealt with a lot of 25 members who have suffered the diseases that come from 26 exposure to asbestos in the built environment, and it was 27 seen as a priority by the Union to try to educate the new 28 entrants to the industry, to try to get them so that they 29 could avoid contact with this deadly substance. 30 31 Q. Were there any particular incidents which arose, prior 32 to the government deciding to impose the mandate, which may 33 have contributed to that decision, to your knowledge? 34 A. Because anything like this, it's going to cost money 35 to the industry, it was a very long and protracted 36 negotiation which, in the end, was supported by the CFMEU 37 and the Master Builders Association and the HIA that we did 38 want mandatory asbestos training, but it was going to be 39 a significant step, and the first jurisdiction in the 40 country to do it. Around the time when it was coming to 41 the crunch-time about making the decision, there are two 42 instances that come to my mind. 43 44 One was at the refurb of a hotel, which is the old 45 Lakeside, where apprentice plumbers found large amounts of 46 asbestos in a boiler-room in behind - in the infrastructure 47 behind the refurb as they were pulling it out. A large

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 197 D J HALL (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI 1 amount of workers have been going in and out of that job 2 and in and out of that room and dealing with that product 3 previous to that, not knowing what it was. These 4 apprentices, because they had done the training, even 5 though hundreds of other construction workers, with vastly 6 more experience had been there, they could not identify 7 what they were dealing with and the apprentices alerted the 8 Work Safety Authority to the presence of asbestos, thus, 9 not only protecting themselves but also the other workers. 10 11 There was another high profile one which was - a large 12 oval was being redone, a sporting oval complex and a lot of 13 workers had gone down there and dug up carparks and dug 14 irrigation, et cetera, on the site and, again, hundreds of 15 workers, and the public, were still walking their dogs, 16 et cetera, close to this. There was a big pile of material 17 that had been dug up that had been sitting there 18 unprotected for many weeks with people walking past it, 19 et cetera. 20 21 On one particular day, towards the end of the project, 22 after a lot of people and the public had been in close 23 proximity to the renovation, an apprentice electrician came 24 onto site when they were digging the trenches for the light 25 cables to the light towers on site, and he actually 26 identified the asbestos and he rang his mother, who then 27 rang WorkSafe and the media. It was identified that that 28 was asbestos and it was a large mass contamination and 29 a large mass exposure to everyone. So the actual kid, 30 because he'd done the course, again, unfortunately at the 31 end, after everyone had been exposed, but it proved that by 32 giving the worker information upfront, not only could they 33 protect themselves, they could protect not only the other 34 workers on the site but the public. 35 36 Q. When did that become public in time, in connection 37 with the government's decision? 38 A. The government made the announcement the next day. 39 They said it was time; we couldn't delay it anymore. 40 41 Q. Sorry, who said that? 42 A. I believe at the time the Minister. He called a press 43 conference, so you will be able to find it, and he said it 44 was time that we could no longer allow workers and members 45 of the public to be exposed to asbestos when we could come 46 up with a way of dealing with it. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 198 D J HALL (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. I just want to turn to one more different matter. 2 This concerns the training clause in EBAs. You have told 3 the Commission that the clause is not enforced? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. You have told the Commission that you have never 7 prosecuted anyone - the Union has never brought enforcement 8 proceedings in connection with non-compliance -- 9 A. No. 10 11 Q. -- with that clause. That's not how you treat every 12 clause in the EBA? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. In relation to some clauses, it is very important to 16 the Union to ensure that there is strict compliance with 17 the requirements in respect of different entitlements; is 18 that right? 19 A. Correct. 20 21 Q. Can you explain the purpose of the clause, as you 22 understand it, if it's not a clause that is strictly 23 enforced? 24 A. The reality is that the construction industry, 25 unfortunately, has a lot of shonky training providers. For 26 example, it was brought up earlier that CSI was involved in 27 high risk licensing. We are no longer. We've withdrawn 28 from high risk licensing. The major reason behind that is 29 that we were offering things like mobile crane tickets and 30 it would take someone - because they were driving heavy 31 plant machinery, which is extremely dangerous. Through our 32 training, we were very precise about how we delivered it 33 and made sure the outcomes were of the highest possible 34 standards, particularly with safety. So it would take 35 operators possibly weeks and months to get their ticket. 36 37 What was happening in the market, there was another 38 provider, particularly down on the south coast, who was 39 giving people heavy crane tickets in a period of 40 four hours. They'd go down and they'd get a ticket for one 41 day and then they'd come back and be allegedly competent at 42 driving this machinery. We have made complaints to the 43 relevant authorities about that, and they are investigating 44 that person. But it was very hard when these 45 operators - when you're trying to do it properly and it 46 takes time and money, more than just the time and money of 47 the organisation like ours to provide the training, but

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 199 D J HALL (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI 1 also the workers are away from work so it's cost on the 2 employer, so we weren't getting quality outcomes, and 3 that's common across the whole construction industry with a 4 lot of courses. 5 6 You will see the White Card, for example, the White 7 Card can be delivered by RTOs or registered training 8 organisations that aren't even connected to the 9 construction industry. 10 11 The General Induction Card can be delivered online 12 where you can have very little proof the actual person who 13 is doing the course is the person who is getting the card, 14 and these are ongoing problems about quality training in 15 the construction industry. 16 17 So, going back to what the clause is about, we know 18 that some of the people who have signed our agreement send 19 their people - workers - to the MBA and send their workers 20 to the HIA, but we don't prosecute because we know that 21 both those organisations - we might disagree on a lot of 22 things, but we also understand that both those 23 organisations do deliver the quality of the competency in 24 these areas. And to make it clear that what we're talking 25 about is - there is a very few number of courses now we 26 deliver, we have restricted it down to a very few number of 27 short courses, and the agreement clearly says that if we 28 don't offer the course, people can go elsewhere. But what 29 it was primarily about is a statement of intent to the 30 industry that we needed to lift our game as an industry and 31 deliver a higher quality of training. 32 33 Q. You are aware of employers who purchase training 34 services from MBA and HIA? 35 A. Yes. 36 37 Q. Including employers who have agreements with terms 38 similar to the ones that you have looked at before? 39 A. Yes. The owner of Multi-Crete in the Commission 40 basically said that - when he was asked under examination, 41 he said words to the effect: "I go to CSI, I go to the MBA 42 and whoever is the cheapest, I go with", and he has an 43 agreement with a clause in it. 44 45 Q. The employers that you are aware of, who have 46 agreements with the CFMEU and who purchase training 47 services from MBA and HIA, purchased services including

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 200 D J HALL (Mr Borgeest) Transcript produced by DTI 1 courses that are offered both by -- 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. -- HIA or MBA, on the one hand, and CSI on the other? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. You are aware of them and in relation to any of those, 8 has the Union taken any enforcement steps to enforce the 9 clause? 10 A. No. 11 12 MR BORGEEST: Those are the matters I wish to raise, 13 Commissioner. 14 15 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Borgeest. 16 Mr Slevin? 17 18 MR SLEVIN: Thank you, Commissioner. 19 20

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 201 D J HALL (Mr Slevin) Transcript produced by DTI 1 holding that role? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. If we go across the top to the "Woden Tradesmen's 5 Union Club Limited", you will see the list there, you are 6 on the top of that list as well. What position do you hold 7 in that organisation? 8 A. Chair. 9 10 Q. Do you receive any remuneration or other payment for 11 holding that role? 12 A. No. 13 14 Q. Then there is the "Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club 15 Limited", we see your name appears there. What role do you 16 have there? 17 A. I'm the Chair. 18 19 Q. Do you receive any remuneration or other payment for 20 that role? 21 A. No. 22 23 Q. If we go down next to "Canberra Tradesmen's Union Club 24 Community Fund Limited", you will see your name appears 25 there. What role do you hold there? 26 A. I'm the Chair. 27 28 Q. Do you receive any remuneration or payment for holding 29 that role? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. If we go over to the left-hand side, we get the 33 "119 585 821 Pty Ltd". You had a former role as 34 a director. Did you have any other role other than simply 35 as a director of that company? 36 A. I was the Chair. 37 38 Q. Did you receive any remuneration or payment in that 39 role? 40 A. No. 41 42 Q. If we go to the middle coloured box, "Creative Safety 43 Initiatives Trust (CSI)", you are listed as a director 44 there. Did you hold any other role? 45 A. Chair. 46 47 Q. Did you receive any payment or remuneration in that

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 202 D J HALL (Mr Slevin) Transcript produced by DTI 1 role? 2 A. No. 3 4 Q. Then we go to the next box which is "Construction 5 Charitable Works Limited", you are listed there as 6 a director. Did you hold another role? 7 A. The chair. 8 9 Q. Did you receive any remuneration or payment in that 10 role? 11 A. No. 12 13 MR SLEVIN: Thank you, Mr Hall. Nothing further, 14 Commissioner. 15 16 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Slevin. Anything 17 arising, Ms McNaughton? 18 19 MS McNAUGHTON: No, thank you. 20 21 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hall, you can leave the witness box 22 now. I think, though, you will have to come back later -- 23 24 THE WITNESS: In three weeks, I think. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: -- to discuss the evidence of the last 27 three weeks or so in Canberra. The solicitors will tell 28 you, or try and work out a convenient time for you. 29 30 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 31 32 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you for attending over the last 33 two days. 34 35

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 203 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Your current occupation? 3 A. CEO of Creative Safety Initiatives and 4 Construction Charitable Works. 5 6 Q. And the way you have just said CEO of Creative Safety 7 Initiatives, as you have been hearing, because you have 8 been sitting here, I think, for the full length of time of 9 Mr Hall's evidence - is that right? 10 A. Yes, that's right. 11 12 Q. That's not an entity, legally speaking. Rather, 13 CETW Limited as trustee for Creative Safety Initiatives 14 Trust is really what you are CEO of, is it? 15 A. Yes, that's right. 16 17 Q. How long have you been in that role, CEO of both 18 organisations? 19 A. So, Construction Training and Welfare Limited? Yes, 20 since its -- 21 22 Q. We will take that one first. 23 A. Yes. Since its inception. 24 25 Q. And prior to that, what was your job? 26 A. Prior to that I was the CEO of CITEA. I've had 27 multiple roles through my time. 28 29 Q. Can we start from the beginning. After leaving 30 school, what did you do? 31 A. I worked in the motor industry for a period of time. 32 33 Q. The motor industry? 34 A. The motor industry, yes. 35 36 Q. How long did you do that for? 37 A. Oh, about 10 years or so. 38 39 Q. And then what did you do? 40 A. I then started in construction, in training. 41 42 Q. Did you become involved with CITEA at that time? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. What was the first organisation? 46 A. I was working for the BTG Drug and Alcohol Program. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 204 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. In the ACT? 2 A. In the ACT as a trainer, yes. 3 4 Q. For how long did you do that? 5 A. I started in 2004 and then went through to 2006 when 6 CSI Pty Ltd started. 7 8 Q. Did you take up your role with CSI, we'll call it that 9 for convenience -- 10 A. Right. 11 12 Q. -- at the same time as you took up your role with CCW? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. So how did it happen? 16 A. CSI Pty Ltd started in June 2006 and then 17 Construction Charitable Works was formed in 2008. 18 19 Q. What did you understand was the reason that 20 CSI Pty Ltd, as it then was - and that's on the left-hand 21 side. If we could, perhaps for ease of reference, put up 22 CSI MFI-1. We are talking at the moment about your 23 involvement with CSI Pty Ltd which is on the left-hand side 24 of that diagram. 25 A. Mmm. 26 27 Q. Is that convenient or would you like the hardcopy? 28 A. I have a hardcopy here. Thank you. 29 30 THE COMMISSIONER: By that you mean Creative Safety 31 Initiatives Pty Ltd? 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes. 34 35 Q. Why did that come into being, to your understanding? 36 A. To deliver work health and safety training in the 37 construction industry. 38 39 Q. In terms of the difference between it and, for 40 example, CITEA and CISC, what did you understand it to be? 41 A. Well, CITEA was a group training organisation that was 42 delivering apprentice training in carpentry, and so on, and 43 CSI was going to concentrate on work health and safety, 44 short course training in particular. 45 46 Q. You came onto the board of that organisation on 47 18 January 2010?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 205 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Which organisation was that? 2 3 Q. Creative Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd. Does that ring 4 a bell? 5 A. I don't think I've ever been on that board. 6 7 Q. I withdraw that. I withdraw that. You became 8 involved with that organisation at around about the time it 9 was set up? 10 A. That's correct, yes. 11 12 Q. At that time was Sarah Schoonwater the Secretary of 13 the CFMEU ACT Branch? 14 A. Yes, I believe that's true. 15 16 Q. Did she recruit you? 17 A. No. 18 19 Q. Who recruited you into that role? 20 A. I was with the BTG Drug and Alcohol Program at the 21 time. 22 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. So I basically just went over to the CSI. 25 26 Q. How did you basically go over? Were they somehow 27 connected? 28 A. Well, the BTG Drug and Alcohol Program was then wound 29 down and into Creative Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd and then 30 CSI Pty Ltd took up some of that role. 31 32 Q. So BTG D and A Committee was run by the CFMEU; it was 33 part of the CFMEU, wasn't it? 34 A. Sorry, part of, can you explain? 35 36 Q. Well, tell the Commission what do you understand -- 37 A. I believe it was a committee set up to deliver D and A 38 training in the construction industry, administered 39 probably financially by the Branch, but, yes, that was my 40 understanding of it. 41 42 Q. Did it have an office in a particular location? 43 A. Yes. It had an office inside the Tradies Club. 44 45 Q. Which one? 46 A. The Dickson club. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 206 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Your role from there segued into your role with 2 Creative Safety Initiatives Pty Ltd, is that what you are 3 saying? 4 A. That's correct. 5 6 Q. And as that ramped up, did the BTG Drug and Alcohol 7 Committee disappear? 8 A. Yes. Well, CSI Pty Ltd took over the function of 9 that, both the training component and the welfare. 10 11 Q. Do you know why? 12 A. From memory - not as I sit here today, no. 13 14 Q. To your understanding, Creative Safety Initiatives 15 Pty Ltd was very much a product of the CFMEU ACT Branch? 16 A. CSI Pty Ltd? 17 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. It's a long time ago. I'm just trying to remember. 20 So, was it an initiative of - it was an initiative of the 21 Tradies clubs at the time, I think. 22 23 Q. But the directors included Sarah Schoonwater, 24 relevantly, from 2006 and she was the CFMEU Secretary; 25 that's right? 26 A. I don't know if she was the Secretary in '06. 27 28 Q. She became Secretary. 29 A. Yes. Eventually, yes. 30 31 Q. In 2010 Mr Hall and Mr O'Mara became directors on the 32 same day. Do you recall that happening? 33 A. Not on that particular date, but I believe sometime 34 around that time, yes. 35 36 Q. That was along with Mr Brennan, Mr Docker and 37 Mr Driver? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. Why do you understand CSI Pty Ltd changed its 41 structure to CETW Limited as Trustee for CSI Trust? 42 A. I understand it got some advice that to benefit the 43 members of the CFMEU, that a trust arrangement would be 44 beneficial. 45 46 Q. Do you know any more detail the reason behind that 47 advice?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 207 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. No. That was basically my understanding. 2 3 Q. No idea? 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. You as the CEO of that organisation, no idea why it 7 was beneficial to change the structure? It would go 8 through a bit of trouble to do so, no doubt? 9 A. My understanding is it was just a better way of 10 funding going through to the CFMEU for the benefit of its 11 members. 12 13 Q. How did you become CEO of CCW? 14 A. Well, CSI Pty Ltd was doing the work, the welfare work 15 of the BTG, and there was a decision at the time to apply 16 for a deductible gift recipient for the charity and in '08 17 there was a decision made to go for that charitable status, 18 so Construction Charitable Works was formed. 19 20 Q. And did it get the charitable status? 21 A. Only partial charitable status. 22 23 Q. Do you know why that was the case? 24 A. To be honest with you, not - I don't know the full 25 detail of it, but I know that there was an accounting firm 26 engaged. They went through a process and there was only 27 partial charitable status granted. 28 29 THE COMMISSIONER: Q. By "partial charitable status", 30 you mean, do you, as you understand it, it is recognised by 31 the law as a trust for a charitable purpose, or serving 32 charitable purposes, but if you give money to it, you don't 33 get a tax deduction? 34 A. That's my understanding, Commissioner. 35 36 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Just to set the scene, you were CEO of 37 CETW Limited as Trustee for CSI, from its beginning? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. And also CCW Limited from its beginning? 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. At some point I think you became President, that is in 44 January 2010, of the CFMEU Construction and General 45 Division ACT? 46 A. Yes. I was Acting President at that stage and I think 47 it was February/March that I was --

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 208 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. It was formalised by way of -- 3 A. With Committee of Management, yes. 4 5 Q. You were full-time, were you, in terms of employed 6 labour between CETW and CCW from about September or so 7 2010? 8 A. I was employed by CITEA in 2010. 9 10 Q. Right. The Trust Deed you can see from this diagram, 11 and we can see it from the documents as well, for 12 CSI Trust, was dated 23 September 2010. Did it come into 13 being as an operational organisation soon after that? 14 A. I believe so. 15 16 Q. It completely just flowed from being CSI Pty Ltd, did 17 it not? Or not? 18 A. I'm just thinking back. Yes, yes - well, Pty Ltd 19 was - yes, it took - Construction Employment Training and 20 Welfare Limited and the Trust was taking over the work of 21 CSI. 22 23 Q. That was a gradual process, was it? 24 A. There were some RTO requirements that needed to happen 25 and then it basically took over the operations, yes. 26 27 Q. From your point of view, you went straight from being 28 employed by CITEA, to where? 29 A. No, I was with CITEA for a period of time and I was 30 also with - I wasn't employed by Construction Employment 31 Training and Welfare Limited at that stage, but I was 32 overseeing the operations of CSI and Construction 33 Charitable Works. 34 35 Q. When did you stop being employed by CITEA and start 36 being employed by CETW Limited and CCW Limited? 37 A. It would have been July 2011, I believe. 38 39 Q. In terms of your actual pay slip, who did it show as 40 the employer? 41 A. Back then when I -- 42 43 Q. Back in July 2011. 44 A. I believe it to be the Trust - Creative Safety 45 Initiatives Trust. 46 47 Q. But you understood your role to be CEO of both the

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 209 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Trust and the charity -- 2 A. That's correct. 3 4 Q. -- when you started? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. In July 2011, from then - perhaps we can concentrate 8 from then - what was the staffing arrangement at CSI Trust 9 and then I will ask you about CCW? 10 A. Okay. So there was myself, one admin person and -- 11 12 Q. Was that Jess Dean? 13 A. That's correct, and Dick Garrety. 14 15 Q. What was his job? 16 A. Training and welfare officer. 17 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. And Duncan Bennett-Burleigh, training and welfare 20 officer. 21 22 Q. Did they all swap over or get transferred from CITEA? 23 A. Yes. They left with me, yes. 24 25 Q. Was that the sum total of people working for both CSI 26 and for CCW? 27 A. I believe so. 28 29 Q. What did you all do of a day, are you able to indicate 30 in some detail how your time was utilised? 31 A. Well, what my role sort of - my day sort of floats 32 around a little bit, depending on what's happening at the 33 time. I could be doing meetings for CSI or then I could be 34 doing - sorry, Construction Training and Welfare Limited or 35 the Trust, and then I could be doing meetings for 36 Construction Charitable Works. I play a role - I used to 37 train, but I don't train anymore, but I do field officer 38 work as well. 39 40 Q. Can we perhaps be precise. Let's take from July 2011 41 to the end of 2011, just for that period, so the second 42 half of 2011, were you training at that time? 43 A. No. 44 45 Q. Who was doing the training? It was just Dick and 46 Duncan, was it? 47 A. Dick and Duncan, and there were some external

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 210 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 contractors we would use for specific courses. 2 3 Q. How much of their time, Dick and Duncan's time, was 4 being used for training? 5 A. It could be two-thirds of their time. 6 7 Q. How much of Jess Dean's role was being used in 8 relation to training, her being the admin person? 9 A. At that stage probably maybe, I don't know, the same. 10 11 Q. About two-thirds? 12 A. Yes, if not a little bit more, yes. 13 14 Q. Okay. Because it was a busy training organisation, 15 wasn't it? 16 A. Just thinking back to 2011, without looking at my 17 figures, the bulk of the work we were doing was at CIT, 18 I would say, so, yes, there's -- 19 20 Q. The bulk of what you were doing was at CIT? 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Can you just explain that a bit more? 24 A. Yes, Canberra Institute of Training, the TAFE system 25 down there, we go in and deliver work health and safety 26 training to the apprentices. 27 28 Q. The training you didn't deliver via either 29 Dick Garrety or Duncan Bennett-Burleigh was outsourced, was 30 it? 31 A. Yes. Well, not necessarily outsourced. We would 32 utilise contractors to do specific training courses. 33 34 Q. By utilising contractors, do you mean that they did 35 the work and CSI paid them? 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. Did they do that at CIT? 39 A. Just thinking back, maybe, yes. It's a long time ago. 40 41 Q. Well, if it wasn't done at CIT, was it done at any 42 other location? 43 A. There could have been courses run out of the Tradies 44 in Dickson, in training rooms there. 45 46 Q. When you say "could have", there were? 47 A. Without my detail and looking back, I'd assume there

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 211 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 was training done in training rooms there, and maybe on 2 site as well. 3 4 Q. "On site" means at various construction sites? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. At some point did you hire another admin person in 8 2012? 9 A. Yes. 10 11 Q. Was that Dianne Vanderdong? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 14 Q. Did she start as a full-time person? 15 A. Correct, yes. 16 17 Q. Was she hired to do mainly training related work? 18 A. At that particular point, yes. 19 20 Q. In fact, was it all training related work, or what 21 percentage would you say? 22 A. At the start, yes, it was all - I believe all training 23 work, yes. 24 25 Q. At a certain point did a further training and welfare 26 officer come on board? 27 A. Yes. I believe John Dunmore may have come on board, 28 yes. 29 30 Q. Did he stay long? 31 A. It could be 12 months, maybe, from memory, yes. 32 33 Q. Just to take then the end of 2011 through to 2012, we 34 have Mr Garrety, Mr Bennett-Burleigh and then Mr Dunmore at 35 some point. What percentage of their work was training? 36 A. I'd be looking at, you know depending on - like, the 37 high risk licensing training was predominantly done by 38 Duncan, and that's when we were starting to move into that 39 area. 40 41 Q. Was that his job? 42 A. I wouldn't say it was his only job. 43 44 Q. Was it mainly his job? 45 A. He had a role to play in regards to Construction 46 Charitable Works as well and Dick Garrety would do 47 a lot - would do training. His breakup, I suppose, would

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 212 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 be, you know, two-thirds training, but then there was a lot 2 of crossover as well because some of the training being 3 delivered in the CIT would then turn into a Construction 4 Charitable Works role as well. 5 6 Q. And Mr Bennett-Burleigh? 7 A. Bennett-Burleigh was the one I mentioned about the 8 high risk licence, yes. 9 10 Q. And Mr Dunmore? 11 A. He would be around the same as Dick, two-thirds, or 12 thereabouts. 13 14 Q. And your role, about the same? 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. I know you said you weren't doing actual training, but 18 training related, about two-thirds? 19 A. No, mine would probably be 50/50, I would say. 20 21 Q. Can you explain in more detail how it would be 50/50. 22 What would you do that was 50 per cent CCW? 23 A. At that time I'd been a field officer in that space 24 for a long period of time, and I took a fair lead on doing 25 the fieldwork for CCW at that stage. 26 27 Q. Which means what? 28 A. We would get contact from the CFMEU about members 29 requiring welfare support. Other members within the 30 industry, they would ring in. I would go out and visit 31 with them, have a discussion with them about what their 32 needs were; develop a plan with them and then we would 33 implement the plan. 34 35 Q. Is it the case that you normally worked about five 36 days a week, with the weekends off? 37 A. Normally. 38 39 Q. Are you saying that two and a half days a week, you 40 would be spending as a field officer-type person? 41 A. Well, on average - sometimes I would spend a whole 42 week doing field officer work. 43 44 Q. But otherwise you say it averaged out to two and 45 a half days a week doing field officer work, is that what 46 you are telling the Commission? 47 A. Well, yes, maybe not two and a half. Say maybe

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 213 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 two - two days, I would say. 2 3 Q. So three-fifths of the time you were in a more 4 training related role? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. On about 21 August 2012, Mr Carlos commenced as the 8 CFO -- 9 A. That's correct. 10 11 Q. -- for CSI, if I can call it that, CCW and the 12 CFMEU ACT Branch? 13 A. Yes, that's right. 14 15 Q. So that's a busy job? 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. How would you say his time was split up between the 19 three organisations? 20 A. Oh, probably 60 per cent of his time doing finance, 21 maybe 60-70 per cent of his time, and 30 per cent - yes. 22 23 Q. So 60 per cent of his time doing finance for the three 24 organisations? 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. But he's the Chief Financial Officer, isn't he? 28 A. It was probably a mix across that time of the three 29 organisations when he first started, so 30 per cent. Yes. 30 31 Q. Sorry, I don't understand that answer at all. He was 32 the Chief Financial Officer -- 33 A. Yes. 34 35 Q. -- for three organisations? 36 A. Correct. 37 38 Q. So he did all financial work -- 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. -- or not? 42 A. Well, his full-time job was doing those, yes. 43 44 Q. So he was in charge of the finances of the three 45 organisations? 46 A. Correct. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 214 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. How do you say it broke up between the three? CSI was 2 how much, CCW was how much and CFMEU was how much? 3 A. I'd say 33 per cent across. 4 5 Q. Really? 6 A. Yes, I think so. 7 8 Q. CCW took up a third of his time? 9 A. He still had certain accounts to produce. 10 11 Q. Are you saying that the CCW accounts were as 12 complicated as the CFMEU accounts, or the busy training 13 organisation, CSI? 14 A. Yes, it might be - I'm just trying to think about how 15 it was broken up. Probably 30 per cent, 30 per cent; 16 40 per cent for the CFMEU. 17 18 Q. So 40 per cent CFMEU, and you are saying CCW and CSI, 19 so far as you were aware, involved the same amount of time 20 for him? 21 A. Yes. From what I understood from him, yes. 22 23 Q. But CSI was running a lot of training courses? 24 A. Mmm-hmm. 25 26 Q. And it was getting in lots of money from a whole lot 27 of different places - employers, for example? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And also dealing with the Funding Authority - yes? 31 A. Yes, it was, yes. 32 33 Q. In terms of dealing with the Funding Authority, are 34 you able to say how the funding worked? Who was funded? 35 Was it direct to CSI or did it go to the worker who, in 36 turn, paid you? 37 A. We apply on behalf of the worker. 38 39 Q. Right. 40 A. And we would then reduce the retail price. They 41 wouldn't - the participant wouldn't pay, so we'd apply on 42 behalf of the participant to get that funding component 43 back on their behalf. 44 45 Q. And it would be sent to that participant? 46 A. No. It would be sent to us. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 215 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. In their name, essentially? 2 A. Well, we apply on their behalf and we reduce that 3 dollar value off the retail rate. 4 5 Q. So it was a bulk billing arrangement? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. Sort of? 9 A. Sort of, yes. 10 11 Q. That sounds like quite a lot of financial detail 12 there? 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. That's quite different, though, to CCW, isn't it? 16 A. Yes. Yes. 17 18 Q. So you can't say then that they both need the same 19 amount of time in terms of their finances, surely? 20 A. Well, Jess in the admin would do all the invoicing, 21 and so on, for the training part of it. So it was the 22 keeping of the books that Dean Carlos would focus on. 23 24 Q. But the keeping of the books would, at least in part, 25 wouldn't it, involve looking at some original documentation 26 to make sure the books are correct, or not? 27 A. Maybe at end of month, but during the course of the 28 month, Jess and Dianne, I think, at that stage were doing 29 the invoicing to the individuals and the participants and 30 so on. 31 32 Q. Jess Dean was 100 per cent doing CSI work? 33 A. 2012, I believe so, yes. 34 35 Q. At a certain point Mr Dunmore resigned; is that right? 36 A. That's right, yes. 37 38 Q. He ceased at the end of December 2012, does that 39 accord with your recollection? 40 A. 2012, yes. I think so, yes. 41 42 Q. Then Mr Arnold took up a role, around about the same 43 time, three days a week; is that right? 44 A. That's correct, yes. 45 46 Q. He was a full-time trainer? Sorry, within the 47 three days, he was doing all of the three days as training?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 216 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes, and field officer work as required. 2 3 Q. "As required" was not 50 per cent of his time, would 4 that be fair to say? 5 A. As I sort of said earlier on, it depended on what was 6 happening in regards to the welfare. We'd get phone calls 7 and I would - we would make sure that there is capacity for 8 field officer work if required. 9 10 Q. Yes, but in terms of taking up their time, certainly, 11 for example, Mr Arnold's time, it wouldn't be 50 per cent 12 of his time, would it? 13 A. No, probably not. 14 15 Q. In fact, it wouldn't be anything near 50 per cent of 16 his time, would it? 17 A. Depending on the day. 18 19 Q. It wouldn't average out to anything near 50 per cent 20 of the time, would it? 21 A. Sorry, I'm just sort of misunderstanding what - so -- 22 23 Q. You are saying it depends on the day? 24 A. Yes. 25 26 Q. That sounds reasonable, but can you average it out 27 over the course of his three days a week, how much training 28 was he delivering versus how much field officer work? 29 A. Some weeks he would train three days a week for 30 a couple of weeks, say, and then no doubt there would be 31 times when he would be required for three days to do 32 welfare. I am just trying to get an actual - to get 33 a perspective on - it would depend on what's happening at 34 the time. 35 36 Q. You have agreed that it is not 50 per cent of his time 37 that was being devoted to welfare work, you earlier agreed 38 that? 39 A. Yes, as I sit here at the moment, without looking at 40 what was happening at the time, yes, could be. 41 42 Q. Well, earlier it was said: 43 44 Q. It wouldn't be 50 per cent of his 45 time, would it? 46 A. No, probably not. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 217 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 That is what you earlier said. 2 A. Right. 3 4 Q. Do you agree with that or do you want to change that 5 answer? 6 A. I probably want to change it. As I sit here, I don't 7 know what was the training at the time. 8 9 Q. But was he brought on, as his main role, to deliver 10 training? 11 A. His main role, yes. 12 13 Q. He resigned about a year after he started, in November 14 2013; is that right? 15 A. That's correct. 16 17 Q. He was not replaced; is that right? 18 A. That's right. 19 20 Q. So we are back to, I think, only two trainers again? 21 A. Yes, that's right. 22 23 Q. I think we're still with Mr Garrety and 24 Mr Bennett-Burleigh; is that right? 25 A. That's correct. 26 27 Q. They were mainly trainers, were they not, not welfare 28 officers? 29 A. We'd wound down the high risk licence training around 30 the time that Leon left. So, yes, they were training and 31 doing the welfare. 32 33 Q. But they were mainly training, were they? 34 A. I'd say - mainly - well, yes. 35 36 Q. Then a further admin finance officer was hired to 37 assist Mr Carlos in about November 2013, Hannah Roberts? 38 A. Correct. 39 40 Q. In September 2014, Mr Carlos retired as CFO? 41 A. That's correct. 42 43 Q. His position was not refilled; is that right? 44 A. That's correct. 45 46 Q. Who took over that financial role? 47 A. That was outsourced to the Tradies group.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 218 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Janice Brennan was then hired part-time; is that 3 right? 4 A. That's right, yes. 5 6 Q. She was essentially admin, was it? 7 A. Yes. Reception/admin, yes. 8 9 Q. That allowed Dianne Vanderdong to concentrate or data 10 entry, did it? 11 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes. 12 13 Q. Then by July 2014, Hannah Roberts had left and the 14 position was not refilled; is that right? 15 A. That's right, yes. 16 17 Q. So from that short excursion through the staff, is 18 there anything you would like to add in terms of additional 19 people we've missed out, or anything you'd like to modify? 20 A. Not at this stage. I think that was the staffing, 21 yes. 22 23 Q. That was the staffing? 24 A. So can we just go back and we'll just run through the 25 timeline? 26 27 Q. Sure. So 2011 was when you started in your CEO role 28 of CSI and CCW? 29 A. 2011, yes, that's right. 30 31 Q. When you came on board, you had Jess Dean in the admin 32 role? 33 A. Mmm-hmm. 34 35 Q. Mr Garrety and Mr Bennett-Burleigh -- 36 A. Yes. 37 38 Q. -- they were training and welfare officers, but their 39 main role was training? In fact, you said two-thirds for 40 both of those men. 41 A. Yes, around about that. 42 43 Q. You would agree that sounds right? 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. Ms Vanderdong was hired as an admin person? 47 A. She was, yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 219 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. She mainly did CSI related work, did she? 3 A. Yes. At the start, yes. 4 5 Q. In fact, only? 6 A. Yes. When she first started, yes. 7 8 Q. Did that change at some point? 9 A. I don't know the exact date when it changed, but she 10 started doing intake work for CCW as well. 11 12 Q. That would not have been her main role, though? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. Her main role remained as training? 16 A. Training/admin, yes. 17 18 Q. Then Mr Dunmore commenced to take over some training 19 so that Mr Garrety and Mr Bennett-Burleigh could focus on 20 high risk training; is that right? 21 A. That was the original intention, yes. 22 23 Q. You have mentioned the words "intake work". What did 24 that involve? 25 A. Intake work would involve getting - someone would be 26 referred, or someone would come to CCW for assistance. 27 Depending on the client at that stage, what they would need 28 - sometimes when we were dealing in a male dominated 29 industry, breaking down the barriers of counselling and 30 advising people that they may need to go and see someone 31 takes sometimes a fair journey, I suppose. 32 33 Q. So literally what happens? So someone comes in to 34 your office either directly, or having made a phone call, 35 is that the position, or you are out on site? 36 A. Oh, it could be either. 37 38 Q. Either? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Can we just take, for example, someone coming in. 42 A. Right. 43 44 Q. Is there a small room available for someone to sit 45 down and talk to them? 46 A. Sometimes they would come into the CFMEU office and 47 then they would come back or be referred to our office and

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 220 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 then we would have a chat. But then, you know, meetings -- 2 3 Q. "We would have a chat", what does that mean? With a 4 receptionist, you, or someone? Who would that be with? 5 A. I would be given a referral, I would ring them. 6 I would say, "Do you want to have a talk?" - if I was doing 7 this as me, "Do you want to sit down and have a talk about 8 some of the issues, I believe you need some support". They 9 go "Okay". I would meet them whether at my office - they 10 would come to the office, we would sit down there, have a 11 discussion about what was happening in their lives, and 12 then, from there, I would say, "Well, look, these are some 13 of the options we could put together for you", and, from 14 there, some people would go, "Okay, I'll come back to you 15 if I want any help", or some would go, "Right, okay. Well, 16 yeah, I want to go through that", and we would then fill 17 out the intake documentation from there. 18 19 Q. I know I have got off the timeline a little bit, but 20 just while we are on this, did you open a file or did you 21 have some sort of admin system, sort of a sheet where you 22 got people's details -- 23 A. Yes. 24 25 Q. -- in order to start the process off? 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Was that done invariably in every case? 29 A. Not in every case, no. 30 31 Q. In most cases? 32 A. If they went through and got counselling support, yes, 33 but sometimes they're - like, I'd talk with people for 34 periods of time before they were taken in as an intake. 35 36 Q. Is it the case that if they came in and talked to you 37 and you filled out a form, they would go on and be referred 38 to a psychologist or whatever -- 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. -- but there would be some occasions where they'd come 42 and talk to you and, what, they'd feel better and it would 43 all go away or -- 44 A. No, there was times when they would come in and meet 45 with me or the field officers and not be ready to go 46 through and do formal - get formal support. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 221 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. And you would not fill out in a form in that situation 2 or you would? 3 A. Well, probably not necessarily all the time. 4 5 Q. Not necessarily all the time? 6 A. Well, no, I would wait for them to be happy to engage 7 in that, and then I would fill out an intake form with 8 them. 9 10 Q. So you would always fill out an intake form, is that 11 what you are saying, whether or not in their presence or 12 otherwise? 13 A. No. 14 15 Q. You would not? What is the percentage of times you 16 did not fill in an intake form? 17 A. I don't know. There are people that I've dealt with 18 over the time that have just more wanted to talk with me 19 but not necessarily go down the route, which takes up a lot 20 of time, without going down the formal process of going 21 through and referring them on to other counselling, like 22 OzHelp or Canberra Psychological Services or -- 23 24 Q. Would you want to follow that person up, even if they 25 didn't go down a formal route? 26 A. Yes. Well, you know, there is times where I follow 27 them up, yes. 28 29 Q. How would you know, if you hadn't filled out a form, 30 how to contact them? 31 A. Well, I would - they would ring me initially and 32 I would have their mobile phone number. Sometimes they 33 just wanted to have a chat and then not necessarily go 34 through, so I would basically give them a couple of calls 35 within a week or two after I've met with them, and not 36 harass them, I suppose. 37 38 Q. Did you have any formal system of recordkeeping such 39 that you could keep track of these people, most of whom 40 would be in some sort of degree of distress, either serious 41 or otherwise, such that you would need some sort of proper 42 system? 43 A. Yes, well, depending on - if there was someone in 44 a dire thing, we would go through and talk with them. 45 Like, if someone was suicidal, we would be getting 46 them - I would be trying to fill out the forms with them, 47 okay, but the ones that would just be ringing up and

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 222 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 saying, "I'm feeling a bit low today", I would just 2 keep - like, I'd keep them in my mobile phone and ring 3 them. 4 5 Q. So you wouldn't have any file note of that person at 6 all? 7 A. I would encourage them to get into the formal 8 structure as soon as I could. 9 10 Q. But whether or not they became part of the formal 11 structure, surely from your own recordkeeping point of 12 view, you would like to keep some sort of record of their 13 contact with your organisation? 14 A. At the initial stages, unless they were going through 15 and doing - we were doing a full treatment plan with them, 16 not probably formal, no. 17 18 Q. So what percentage of people would fall off the filing 19 system, if I can put it like that? 20 A. I don't know if we'd say "falling off the filing 21 system". Look, I couldn't - I wouldn't want to say 22 a percentage. 23 24 Q. Well, 90 per cent, 20 per cent, somewhere in between? 25 A. I don't know, 20, 30 per cent, if we're looking for 26 a figure, yes. 27 28 Q. Just to continue on before we break - no, maybe we 29 won't. 30 31 MS McNAUGHTON: Perhaps that is a convenient time. 32 33 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 2pm. 34 35 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 36 37 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ms McNaughton. 38 39 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. I have just been handed by someone on 40 your behalf a copy of your professional resumé. 41 A. Yes. 42 43 Q. Can I show you this document. That is a document 44 you've prepared? 45 A. Not myself personally, no. 46 47 Q. Who prepared it?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 223 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. A consultant that I use at CSI. 2 3 Q. A consultant you use? 4 A. I use at CSI, yes. 5 6 Q. But it was based on information provided by you; is 7 that right? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. And you agree that it's true and correct? 11 A. I believe so, yes. 12 13 Q. And fulsome? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that be received into evidence? 17 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. That professional resumé of 19 Mr Jennings will be CSI MFI-9. 20 21 CSI MFI-9 MR JENNINGS' PROFESSIONAL RESUMÉ 22 23 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Mr Jennings, before the break we were 24 just recapping as to the staffing between CSI and CCW and 25 where relevant, CFMEU. Just to recap, we've got you, 26 Ms Dean, Mr Garrety, Mr Bennett-Burleigh, Ms Vanderdong 27 came on to help with admin staff in April 2012? 28 A. Yes. 29 30 Q. And then Mr Dunmore commenced as a training and 31 welfare officer to take over some training, so that 32 Mr Garrety and Mr Bennett-Burleigh could focus on high-risk 33 training as at that time? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Then at 21 August 2012 Mr Carlos commenced as the 37 Chief Finance Officer for CSI, CCW and CFMEU? 38 A. Yes. 39 40 Q. And you indicated, I think after a point of time, that 41 the work that he did for CFMEU was more than he did for CSI 42 and more than he did for CCW, from what you could observe? 43 I think you put it as 40 per cent for CFMEU and 30 per cent 44 each for CSI and CCW; is that right? 45 A. Yes, thereabouts, yes. 46 47 Q. And are you still of the view that CCW required half

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 224 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 his remaining time after his CFMEU work? 2 A. I believe so, yes. 3 4 Q. Then Mr Dunmore resigned, ceased around about 5 December 2012? 6 A. Yes. 7 8 Q. And Mr Arnold came on three days a week delivering 9 short courses. You say that took up most of his time and 10 fieldwork less of his time? 11 A. Yes. It's hard to qualify, though, the times. As 12 I said earlier on, when they're training then they're 13 delivering part of Construction Charitable Works message as 14 well. So they'd stay back after class or something and 15 talk to apprentices about certain issues they may be 16 having. I don't do billable hours in regards to what times 17 are, you know, and what people spend on what time. It's 18 more looking at, you know, what we need to achieve for the 19 organisation to operate. 20 21 Q. But you earlier agreed that most of his time was taken 22 up training? 23 A. Like I said earlier, without looking at what he was 24 specifically doing at that particular time, I would - I am 25 struggling to answer the question. 26 27 Q. Leon Arnold resigned in 2013 and his position was not 28 filled? 29 A. That's right. 30 31 Q. And then Hannah Roberts was hired as a casual admin 32 finance officer to assist Mr Carlos; is that right? 33 A. I believe so, yes, that's right. 34 35 Q. And Ben Carlos retired 2 September 2014? 36 A. 2 September, yes. 37 38 Q. Ms Brennan was hired three days a week to assist with 39 additional training compliance; is that right? 40 A. No, additional - yes, training, admin, reception. 41 42 Q. And Dianne Vanderdong was doing data entry? 43 A. Part of the time, yes. 44 45 Q. Most of the time? 46 A. Yes, two to three out of five days, yes, so most -- 47 well, yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 225 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Sorry? 3 A. Yes, three out of the five days and when Janice wasn't 4 there, Diane would be on reception. 5 6 Q. And then in July 2014, Hannah Roberts left and her 7 position was not refilled? 8 A. There was a casual position that she held. 9 10 Q. You were giving evidence before lunch about when 11 people rang up for assistance for CCW related work. Do you 12 have any need to keep paperwork for your own internal 13 records in terms of how many people are contacting your 14 organisation for assistance? 15 A. Only to prepare the annual report. 16 17 Q. So you'd need some record of every call that comes in, 18 wouldn't you? 19 A. Not necessarily every call, no. 20 21 Q. What if someone rang up and you needed to be 22 accountable, for example, to members of their family if 23 something went awry? 24 A. Well, the service is confidential, so I deal with 25 a client, not necessarily their family. 26 27 Q. But you'd want to cover - you'd want a proper record 28 just in case something went wrong, wouldn't you? 29 A. Well, as I indicated before, there is a certain amount 30 of work that would be done before they do an intake. Okay? 31 So the accountability is - we deal with it on a day-to-day 32 basis in regards to, you know, when they actually go into 33 formal treatment. We don't - I don't proclaim to be 34 a counsellor myself. Okay? We more meet with people and 35 we link them up. We're a conduit and get them to services 36 they may need. 37 38 Q. Have you seen some of the exhibits that were provided 39 to Mr Hall yesterday and have been shown to him today as 40 well, CSI MFI-6 and CSI MFI-5? They are the financial 41 charts. 42 A. Yes, I've seen those, yes. 43 44 THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just interrupt? In relation to 45 CSI MFI-9, which is Mr Jennings' resumé, I direct that 46 there be no publication of his residential address, his 47 telephone number and his email address. I make that

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 226 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 direction. 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: May it please the Commission. 4 5 Q. We can see from both of those charts that management 6 fees of $214,829 are paid from CCW to CSI in both the 2013 7 year and the 2014 calendar year. You've seen that? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Is your understanding that that is based on 11 a particular, if not formal, informal formula? 12 A. Informal formula, yes. 13 14 Q. And what's that formula? 15 A. I basically work on a third of my wages bill and with 16 on-costs. 17 18 Q. A third of your whole wages bill? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. So for your total staff it's a third of it? 22 A. Correct. 23 24 Q. Did you discuss at the end of 2012 the issues in 25 relation to the payment from CCW to CSI with Glenn Carlos, 26 can you recall? 27 A. I can't recall. 28 29 Q. You can't recall? 30 A. No. 31 32 Q. Have you ever said in relation to you, Mr Carlos and 33 Dick Garrety and John Dunmore and Jess Dean that 34 50 per cent of their time should be charged to CCW? 35 A. I can't recall. 36 37 Q. Do you believe you would have said -- 38 A. Is that in 2012? 39 40 Q. The end of 2012. 41 A. I may have done. 42 43 Q. And why would you have said that given you have 44 already given evidence to the Commission, if I understand 45 it correctly, that that is not the position, that 46 50 per cent of their time is spent for CCW? 47 A. Depending on the requirements needed to deliver the

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 227 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 services would depend on how I would factor the formula. 2 3 Q. Are you saying the formula is entirely flexible and 4 depending on how the time is being divided up, it would 5 change from year to year? 6 A. It could do from year to year, yes. 7 8 Q. Between 2013 and 2014 it remained precisely the same, 9 did it not? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. And do you say that precisely the same amount of time 13 overall of the organisational resources were used? 14 A. As I said earlier, I don't keep a tally of hours of 15 people and what they do. We deliver the services to ensure 16 that people in the construction industry, in particular, 17 CFMEU members, have got the support services they need. 18 19 Q. So how can you possibly give a proper and transparent 20 and accountable estimate of the amount that CCW should be 21 charged for the work done on their behalf by CSI? 22 A. Sorry, can you break that down? 23 24 Q. How can you possibly give a proper and transparent and 25 accountable estimate of the amount that CCW should be 26 charged for the work done on their behalf by CSI? 27 A. I sit down and work out what we're doing with the 28 organisation and work the formula out from there. 29 30 Q. It's precisely the same figure in 2013 and 2014, so it 31 doesn't look like any work was done to -- 32 A. Oh, there was plenty of work done. 33 34 Q. And you end up with precisely the same figure? 35 A. Looking at the two years in situation, with the 36 breakfasts and so on, we're promoting the program and 37 delivering the services to the members and I'm looking at, 38 you know, forwarding on what services may be needed in the 39 industry, I believe that that was the figure. 40 41 Q. You say you started from scratch in each of these 42 calendar years working out what the proper management fees 43 that should be charged to CCW for the work done on their 44 behalf by the staff of CSI and you came up, entirely 45 properly, with the identical figure of $214,829? 46 A. No. I didn't sit down in both years and look at it 47 from scratch. I would look at what we potentially did in

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 228 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2013 and forecasting - there's no formula on how much work 2 is going to be done and I ascertained that I believed that 3 those two years would probably be the same, so I left the 4 management fee as it was. 5 6 Q. Can I show you this document. Do you see on the first 7 page there's an email from Glenn Carlos to Jason Jennings 8 of 4 October 2012 at 9.06am, so from Mr Carlos to yourself; 9 do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. It says: 13 14 Subject: RE: CSI Management Fee to CCW. 15 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. 19 JJ 20 21 As we discussed, now that the full CSI team 22 is in place and providing services to CCW 23 we need to adjust the management fee 24 payable ... 25 26 If I may just pause there. It is the second page possibly. 27 Thank you. It is just up on the screen now: 28 29 ... we need to adjust the management fee 30 payable by CCW to CSI. 31 32 The original management fee was set when 33 the team comprised 4 people and we are now 34 a team of seven. The current rate payable 35 by CCW is $189,475 .08 pa or $15,789.59 pm. 36 37 You indicated that in terms of expected 38 effort that the fee should be based on 5 39 staff spending approximately 50% of their 40 time on CCW related matters (Dick, Jess, 41 John, Glenn and Jason). 42 43 Based on the October 2012 approved wage 44 rates the total annualised wages bill 45 including ACIRT for these five staff is 46 $429,658.75. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 229 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 The future rate will therefore be set at 2 $214,829 pa ... 3 4 And that is a familiar figure, is it not? That is the one 5 on the charts for both years? 6 A. Yep. 7 8 Q. 9 ... or $17,902 per month. With your 10 agreement I will apply this rate of payment 11 from October 2012. 12 13 Also as discussed, as the team has 14 increased throughout this year with 15 a corresponding increase in the CCW 16 activity we have not adjusted the 17 management fee. 18 19 With your agreement I will make the 20 necessary historical adjustments to the 21 fees paid this fiscal year (ie from January 22 2012). 23 24 For your approval please. 25 26 So can we just reconcile what this says with what you have 27 given in evidence today in the Commission. The people 28 nominated as the five staff spending approximately 29 50 per cent of their time on CCW related matters are 30 Dick Garrety; is that right? 31 A. That's right. 32 33 Q. Jess Dean? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. Is it John Dunmore? 37 A. Yes. I would say, yes. 38 39 Q. Glenn Carlos? 40 A. Mmm-hmm. 41 42 Q. And yourself? 43 A. That's right. 44 45 Q. That doesn't accord, though, with what you've given 46 evidence about today, does it? 47 A. I can't remember this email.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 230 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Although it is not authored by you, the email is 3 expressed to be a record of a discussion with you. 4 A. Mmm. Like I said, I can't recall the discussion. 5 6 Q. And one can infer at least the accuracy of the figure 7 mentioned is correct because that is in fact what ended up 8 being paid for the 2013 and 2014 calendar years. Do you 9 say that that misrepresents the true situation, that email, 10 or what you've said today misrepresents the true situation? 11 A. I may have back then worked on a 50 per cent of 12 those - yes. 13 14 Q. Was that an inflated figure really? 15 A. Which figure do you reckon is inflated? 16 17 Q. The money paid, $214,829 in management fees from CCW 18 to CSI? 19 A. I don't think it's inflated. 20 21 Q. Based on what you say today, those people weren't 22 spending 50 per cent of their time on CCW work? 23 A. Like I said, sitting here right now, I can't work out 24 exactly what times people spent on what. I sat down and 25 looked at a management fee, I put it in place, and we would 26 go and do the services and work on billable times and how 27 it needed to be done, it was a figure, as I said, I put the 28 figure into place. That might change next year, I don't 29 know. 30 31 Q. But it remained the same for 2013 and 2014. It looks 32 like no work was done at all, would you agree, on working 33 out what should, in fact, represent the proper amount of 34 management fee to be paid? 35 A. I put the management fee in place and that's what 36 I believed that management fee would be. 37 38 Q. And you don't believe that that is inflated in order 39 to increase the amount of money which flows to CSI in the 40 first instance and thereafter through to the CFMEU? 41 A. No, it was not inflated. 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that be received into evidence, 44 please? 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The three emails dated 4 October 47 2012 will be CSI MFI-10.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 231 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 CSI MFI-10 THREE EMAILS DATED 4/10/2012 3 4 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could I also show you these documents. 5 I've just had handed to you two sets of documents. Do you 6 see they're both on the letterhead of CSI and one is to 7 Mr Duncan Bennett-Burleigh. Do you see that one, that set? 8 A. Yes, I see that. 9 10 Q. If you look at that in the first instance. 11 A. Yes. 12 13 Q. It is apparently signed by you as Chief Executive 14 Officer on the CSI letterhead? 15 A. That's right. 16 17 Q. It says: 18 19 Dear Duncan 20 21 It is with pleasure that I offer you 22 employment with Creative Safety Initiatives 23 (CSI) in the position of Training & Welfare 24 Officer. 25 26 Should you choose to accept this offer you 27 commence employment with CSI as of 28 [1 February 2012] with a 6 month probation 29 period. 30 31 Just to be clear, he was being employed as a Training and 32 Welfare Officer and was this the only letter of offer of 33 employment that he received or did he receive a counterpart 34 letter from CCW? 35 A. I can't recall. I think this is - from memory, 36 I think this is the one that he got, yes. 37 38 Q. And then he's accepted that and he's dated that 39 25 January 2012. 40 A. That's right. 41 42 Q. And then there is another letter behind that which 43 would appear to be in similar terms for a different period 44 of time. Do you see that? That is dated on the bottom 45 2 June 2011. That would appear to be an earlier offer of 46 employment. 47 A. Yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 232 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. There was a casual offer and the other one is 3 apparently not casual. 4 A. No. 5 6 Q. With a six-month probation period. And then behind it 7 is a position description. Do you see there, "The Training 8 & Welfare Officer" under "Experience and Training"? 9 A. Sorry, I'm just trying - where are we? 10 11 Q. We are now over the page, a document called 12 "Position Description". 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. The position is "Training & Welfare Officer": 16 17 Reports to: Chief Executive Officer 18 19 Position Status: Full Time, Permanent 20 21 Date: April 2011 22 23 The Training & Welfare Officer (TWO) 24 ensures that training within the RTO meets 25 and exceeds student expectations, AQTF 26 Standards and industry standards. 27 28 The TWO is central to CSI's operations as 29 they ensure a constant flow of training 30 courses through direct and indirect 31 marketing efforts, presentation of quality 32 training and assessment processes that are 33 fair, equitable and to required standards. 34 35 The Training & Welfare Officer will 36 [generally] have experience as: 37 38 - A trainer;. 39 40 - With industry experience;. 41 42 - With experience in working with young 43 people, preferably as apprentices or 44 trainees. 45 46 They will have qualifications in: 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 233 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 - Training and assessing;. 2 3 - Related vocations. 4 5 The position reports to the CEO. This 6 position must develop effective working 7 relationships with: 8 9 - Administration Staff;. 10 11 - Accounts;. 12 13 - Stakeholders such as Schools, Industry, 14 Government and DET. 15 16 And then there are various core responsibilities. 17 "Training" is the first one, "Assessment" is the second 18 one, "Administration" is the third one, and "Active CSI 19 Team Member" is the fourth one. Take your time, but 20 there's nothing there about being a field officer and 21 providing welfare. Although it's called a Training and 22 Welfare Officer, there's nothing there about welfare roles, 23 would you agree, in that document? 24 A. Not specifically, no. 25 26 Q. So that again indicates, does it not, that the 27 overwhelming focus of this role was training; would you 28 agree with that? 29 A. I don't know if it would be over - what do you mean by 30 "overwhelming"? 31 32 Q. The vast amount of this person's role, by far the 33 majority of this person's time was to be spent on training. 34 A. I know what that says but that's not necessarily what 35 I expected from him to do. 36 37 Q. Who wrote that position description? 38 A. I assume someone - I would have got someone in the 39 office to put it together. 40 41 Q. Did you oversee the document? 42 A. "Oversee", as in? 43 44 Q. You signed it, for example. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. You would have been content with its content, would

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 234 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 you not? 2 A. At the time I assume that I would have been, yes. 3 4 Q. At least at that point of time nothing struck you such 5 that you wanted any alterations or amendments to the 6 document to reflect what would be a major component of the 7 role, if that was, in fact, a major component of the role; 8 that is, a more welfare aspect of the role? 9 A. I may - I suppose the purpose, Training and Welfare 10 Officer - I may have had a verbal discussion with Duncan 11 about what I expected of him in that area. 12 13 Q. Can we go to the other document. This is addressed to 14 Mr Garrety and I think you will find it is in similar 15 terms, would you agree? And that's signed by you as well; 16 is that right? 17 A. That's right. 18 19 Q. I suggest to you, sir, that that is further indication 20 that the figure of $214,829 in management fees to be paid 21 by CCW to CSI is an inflated figure? What do you say? 22 A. I don't think it's an inflated figure. 23 24 MS McNAUGHTON: Could those two documents or bundles of 25 documents be received into evidence? 26 27 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. CSI MFI-11 will be documents 28 dated 10 May 2011, 2 June 2011 and 25 January 2012 in 29 relation to Mr Duncan Bennett-Burleigh's employment by CSI. 30 31 CSI MFI-11 DOCUMENTS DATED 10/05/2011, 2/06/2011 AND 32 25/01/2012 RE MR DUNCAN BENNETT-BURLEIGH'S EMPLOYMENT BY 33 CSI 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: CSI MFI-12 will be documents dated 36 9 May and 2 June 2011 concerning Richard Garrety's 37 employment with CSI. 38 39 CSI MFI-12 DOCUMENTS DATED 9/05/2011 AND 2/06/2011 RE 40 MR RICHARD GARRETY'S EMPLOYMENT WITH CSI 41 42 THE WITNESS: Can I just ask what the management fee for 43 2012 was? 44 45 MS McNAUGHTON: I will be able to make inquiries about 46 that and get back to you about that. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 235 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Is the answer $189,475.08? 2 3 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you. 4 5 THE COMMISSIONER: That is what Mr Carlos seems to have 6 said it was in an email of 4 October 2012 to Mr Jennings, 7 part of CSI MFI-10. He said: 8 9 The original management fee was set when 10 the team comprised 4 people and we are now 11 a team of seven. The current rate payable 12 by CCW is $189,475.08 [per annum] ... 13 14 Q. Is that the question you were asking, Mr Jennings? 15 A. Yes, thank you. 16 17 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you, Commissioner. 18 19 Q. Could I please ask you to be provided with volume 1 20 from MFI-3. You will recall, sir, from sitting through 21 Mr Hall's evidence that I asked him about some Board 22 meeting minutes. Do you recall that? 23 A. Yes, I recall that. 24 25 Q. Could you please turn to tab 9. Are you able to 26 assist the Commission with your understanding of what Board 27 was meeting such that minutes were prepared that, 28 for example, are reflected from page 110 onwards? Was it 29 the Board of CSI Pty Ltd or Creative Safety Initiatives, or 30 was it the Board of CETW? 31 A. I would think, looking at the dates, it was a CSI 32 Pty Ltd Board meeting, I think. 33 34 Q. At page 112, you presented on 9 November 2010, towards 35 the bottom of the page, do you see, "CEO's Report"? 36 A. Yes, I do. 37 38 Q. You presented a written report and discussed a change 39 of legal entity to a discretionary trading trust that had 40 commenced and then you apparently outlined the registration 41 as an RTO and the like. Do you see that? 42 A. Yes, I see that, yes. 43 44 Q. And then the actual CEO Board Report that is 45 apparently being referred to starts at page 115. Did you 46 prepare that written report? 47 A. This written report here?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 236 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. On page 116? 4 5 Q. Page 115 and following. The heading is on page 115. 6 It is called "CEO Board Report". You were the CEO, were 7 you not? 8 A. That's correct. 9 10 Q. Did you prepare that report? 11 A. I would say I did, yes. 12 13 Q. Why did you include in it, under the heading: 14 15 This report is written as accountability to 16 the highest priority goals for Construction 17 Industry Training and Employment 18 Association (CITEA), Creative Safety 19 Initiatives (CSI) & Construction Charitable 20 Works (CCW) as outlined in the Strategic 21 Plan (May 2009 to December 2011). 22 23 A. I utilised a template Board paper to develop and still 24 do. 25 26 Q. And who developed the template? 27 A. I'm unsure who developed it, but - I'm unsure who 28 developed it. 29 30 Q. It was just on your computer, was it? 31 A. No. I'm just thinking back to 2010. I can't recall. 32 33 Q. It refers there to a "Strategic Plan (May 2009 to 34 December 2011)". Do you know what that is referring to? 35 A. A strategic plan that was developed for CITEA and the 36 group. 37 38 Q. Can you tell the Commission what you know about the 39 development of the strategic plan? 40 A. I know very little about it, to be honest with you. I 41 believe it was developed by Nina Churchward and 42 Peter Robinson who were at CITEA in '09. 43 44 Q. Were you at CITEA in '09? 45 A. I wasn't working for CITEA, no. 46 47 Q. How do you know that they were behind it?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 237 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. They asked me some questions about CSI Pty Ltd at that 2 stage. 3 4 Q. You would have seen yesterday, when I was asking 5 Mr Hall about this, that CSI appears on the cover page of 6 the Strategic Plan; do you recall that? 7 A. That's right. 8 9 Q. Perhaps the witness could be shown volume 6. If you 10 please turn to tab 77, but it is tab B to get the more 11 final report, apparently. 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. And that starts at page 2015. 15 A. That's right. 16 17 Q. Do you see there the three logos, CITEA, CISC and CSI, 18 are apparently, on a quick look, of equal size. Do you see 19 that? 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And then Strategic Plan, it says: 23 24 For CITEA/CISC/CSI. 25 26 Do you see that? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. And then it says: 30 31 May 2009 to December 2011. 32 33 Which appears to match the dates set out in your CEO Board 34 Report? 35 A. That's right. 36 37 Q. You said earlier, when I asked you, that you were not 38 at CITEA at the relevant time? 39 A. I wasn't working for CITEA. 40 41 Q. In 2009. 42 A. I wasn't working for CITEA. 43 44 Q. Where were you working at that time, just remind us? 45 A. CSI Pty Ltd, I think I was. 46 47 Q. But you had regular contact with CITEA or people

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 238 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 working for CITEA, did you? 2 A. Regular, yes. 3 4 Q. Do you know how your organisation, CSI, of which you 5 were CEO, ended up as an equal partner, it would appear, on 6 this document? 7 A. I don't know. Like I said, Nina Churchward and 8 Peter Robinson developed the document, asked me some 9 questions about CSI, and I provided them the answers. 10 11 Q. Did you ever see the document at the time? 12 A. I believe there was a - thinking about it, I don't 13 know. 14 15 Q. You were about to say "draft"; is that right? 16 A. Yes, I think there was a draft one I provided to the 17 Commission, yes. 18 19 Q. You provided the one at tab A, did you, which has the 20 "Draft" watermark across it? 21 A. I provided both, I believe. 22 23 Q. And where did you get them from? 24 A. From the CSI server. 25 26 Q. And who would have placed them on to the CSI server? 27 A. When I did the search I found it on a - I backed up 28 a USB stick on to the server, which was my personal one 29 that I had at the time, and that was on there. 30 31 Q. Right. 32 A. Yes. 33 34 Q. That indicates that you were given both these 35 documents, does it? 36 A. At some stage, yes. 37 38 Q. Did you read them when you were given them? 39 A. I can't recall at the time. 40 41 Q. You must have, mustn't you? Your logo, the CSI logo 42 is, as I say, an equal partner to the other logos on the 43 front page and indeed appears to be an equal part of the 44 document to the other two organisations? You can't recall 45 if you read it? 46 A. I can't recall if I read it six years ago, no. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 239 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Why do you believe you were given it? 2 A. I think at the time there was an appetite by Nina to 3 amalgamate the organisations and I didn't put much weight 4 to it because I didn't believe that that was the right way 5 to go, so I didn't necessarily take too much of that on. 6 7 Q. What was her role? 8 A. At the time she was the CEO of CITEA. 9 10 Q. And do you know why? Did she ever express to you why 11 or do you have an understanding of why she wanted to 12 amalgamate the three organisations? 13 A. I don't know. 14 15 Q. No idea? 16 A. Well, I can't really remember back there. 17 18 Q. Page 2018 of volume 6, under the "Executive Summary", 19 says: 20 21 The CITEA/CISC/CSI (the Group) Strategic 22 Business Plan (the Plan) provides a robust 23 roadmap to support the new direction for 24 the long term successful sustainability of 25 the Group. 26 27 So Nina Churchward just wrote that or directed someone to 28 write that just completely without your permission, did 29 she? 30 A. It wasn't permission - as in regards to what? 31 32 Q. Well -- 33 A. As I said, she asked - she was - they were developing 34 that strategic plan. I was asked a series of questions 35 about CSI and I answered them and that was where - from my 36 memory where it was. 37 38 Q. Was one of those questions, "Do you want to be part of 39 a group with CITEA and CISC?" 40 A. I can't recall if - if I was asked that specific 41 question. 42 43 Q. You must have read this at least in preparation for 44 coming here today; is that right? 45 A. Well, when I produced it to the Commission I hadn't 46 seen it since, obviously, when I put it on that stick. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 240 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Were you shocked when you read it? 2 A. There's a lot of things in there that I didn't read 3 all the way through when - I don't know if I've read it or 4 not back up until that time. 5 6 Q. Was she involved with the CFMEU? 7 A. Nina? 8 9 Q. Ms Churchward, yes? 10 A. Not that I can recall. 11 12 Q. Can we go over to page 2021, "Organisational Values": 13 14 The principles and drivers that inform the 15 way we work are to: 16 17 - Support the CFMEU and its objectives. 18 19 You say, do you, that to your knowledge Ms Churchward was 20 not involved with the CFMEU but she wants to go out of her 21 way to set up a group to support it, to your understanding? 22 A. I can't answer why she put that in there. 23 24 Q. Are you really saying that it had nothing to do with 25 you, as your honest answer to the Commission? 26 A. I understand - I gave them some verbal stuff on CSI 27 and I didn't have an input into other than that. 28 29 Q. Just to be clear, it was Ms Churchward. Who was the 30 other person? 31 A. Peter Robinson. 32 33 Q. And what was his role? 34 A. I think he was a general manager there. 35 36 Q. Was he involved with the CFMEU? 37 A. No. 38 39 Q. So of the three people, you were the most closely 40 involved with the CFMEU and yet you say you had nothing to 41 do with this -- 42 A. I did not prepare the document. 43 44 Q. I beg your pardon? 45 A. I did not prepare the document. 46 47 Q. You did not have input into it, such that --

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 241 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. I had input on the CSI part of the document. 2 3 Q. And the organisational values -- 4 A. I gave a - I gave a verbal - some information about 5 CSI and what other parts of the document, I didn't have a 6 part in. 7 8 Q. Do you know whether anyone else did, apart from you -- 9 A. I don't know. 10 11 Q. -- and those two people? 12 A. I don't know the answer to that. 13 14 Q. Can we return then to volume 1 with the CEO Board 15 Report which refers to the Strategic Plan. Can you please 16 explain to the Commission how that makes its way into your 17 CEO Board Report? 18 A. As I said, I used a template, obviously, that I found. 19 I did not necessarily take into consideration the top part 20 but I reported against the five reporting things there and 21 that's how I came up with it. In hindsight, it was 22 probably an error on my behalf. 23 24 Q. It is just curious, isn't it. Were you the first CEO 25 of CSI? 26 A. Pty Ltd? 27 28 Q. I am sorry, I withdraw that. You were at the time of 29 this document in what position? 30 A. 2010? 31 32 Q. Yes. 33 A. I would have been the CEO of CITEA. 34 35 Q. But you are doing a CEO Board Report in what capacity? 36 A. As CEO of CSI. 37 38 Q. CSI Pty Ltd, you believe? 39 A. Yes. 40 41 Q. Do you say that somehow this template was on the 42 computer that you were using to type out your CEO Board 43 Report? 44 A. I can't remember where I got the template board paper 45 from and I just utilised it and it was an error on my 46 behalf. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 242 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 THE COMMISSIONER: Can I just mention a fact which may not 2 be of any significance, but the "highest priority goals" 3 appearing on page 115 are textually similar but not 4 identical to the highest priority goals on page 2021 in the 5 Final Strategic Plan and 1944 of the Draft Strategic Plan. 6 7 MS McNAUGHTON: Thank you, Commissioner. 8 9 Q. Who performed your role in CSI Pty Ltd before you, to 10 your knowledge? 11 A. Before my role as CEO? Dean Hall. 12 13 Q. Of CSI Pty Ltd? 14 A. Yes. 15 16 Q. Do you know whether or not he had any role in the 17 preparation of the Strategic Plan? 18 A. I don't believe he did. I don't know. 19 20 Q. Did you have a staff computer or such like that you 21 used to prepare the CEO Board Report? 22 A. I just - yes, on the server I probably used it, yes. 23 24 Q. So you started to type your CEO Board Report and up 25 came this template, is that how it worked, or you looked 26 for a template, or you looked for a previous version of it? 27 A. I probably got the - well, what I do now is basically 28 open up the last one and take out the stuff and just go 29 from there. 30 31 Q. But you say immediately prior to you being CEO of CSI 32 Pty Ltd was -- 33 A. I was based at CITEA when I was preparing this 34 document. 35 36 Q. Based at CITEA, but you say that you were preparing 37 the CEO Board Report at CSI? 38 A. Yes, I was running CSI as well as CITEA at the time. 39 40 Q. Are you saying that you just got a Board Report 41 template off the computer at CITEA? 42 A. Well, I'm assuming so, yes. 43 44 Q. Okay. And you didn't read it, is that the position? 45 A. Well, I opened - whatever one I found I filled in the 46 front and then just started writing the report. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 243 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. That might explain that but do you recall that later 2 on I showed Mr Hall a change of wording in relation to 3 a later CEO Board Report, for example, at page 162? 4 A. What page am I on, sorry? 5 6 Q. Page 162 behind tab 12. 7 A. Yes, I see that, yes. 8 9 Q. Do you see there that that is phrased in different 10 words to the one we looked at just earlier? It says: 11 12 This report is written as accountability to 13 the highest priority goals of the Creative 14 Safety Initiatives (CSI) & Construction 15 Charitable Works (CCW) as outlined in the 16 Strategic Plan. 17 18 A. Yes. 19 20 Q. That can't have been a template, can it, because that 21 has changed from what you said was the earlier template? 22 A. Yes, I may have changed that then. 23 24 Q. Are you saying that you did that without any thought 25 as to what the Strategic Plan was? 26 A. I can't recall what my thoughts were then. I never 27 referenced that Strategic Plan. I never utilised that 28 Strategic Plan. I may have used the wording of just part 29 of that to develop or to have the template, but I didn't 30 necessarily refer back to that Strategic Plan. 31 32 Q. Where did you get those "highest priority goals" from 33 then? Were they part of the template? 34 A. Well, from memory, yes. 35 36 Q. Were you at all involved in any enterprise bargaining 37 yourself? 38 A. Myself? No. 39 40 Q. Were you ever aware of any procedure that was set out 41 for those who were involved? 42 A. Not that I can recall. 43 44 Q. No? Was it ever discussed at CFMEU Committee of 45 Management meetings? 46 A. I can't recall. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 244 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. You can't recall that either? 2 A. No. What time - when are we talking -- 3 4 Q. Any time between, let's say - when did you become 5 President - 2010, between then and now? 6 A. From my memory, I can't remember it being discussed. 7 8 Q. Do you recall any discussion about, as I used 9 Mr Hall's words, pattern agreements? 10 A. At the Committee of Management meeting? 11 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. There may or may not - I can't recall. 14 15 Q. You can't recall? 16 A. No. 17 18 Q. How about with the inclusion of particular clauses 19 within the EBAs, for example, the CCW clause, was that 20 discussed at a Committee of Management meeting? 21 A. Not that I remember. 22 23 Q. How about the Approved Training Authority clause, was 24 that discussed? 25 A. Not that I remember at a Committee of Management 26 meeting, no. 27 28 Q. How about the insurance through the Built-Plus JLT 29 Trust? 30 A. The insurance may have been discussed but not the 31 clause; I don't know. 32 33 Q. Sir, are you able to tell the Commission why there is 34 no longer a CCW website active at the moment? 35 A. Yes, I can explain that for you. 36 37 Q. Yes. 38 A. Yes. In March this year we were notified by our web 39 provider that it had been hacked by a Russian 40 pharmaceutical company or something. They reinstated it at 41 that stage. Then there was a couple of - that was March, 42 mid-March, but I've got emails if the Commission would like 43 me to produce them. March it was reset and it went down in 44 early April again, I believe, and the provider said, "Look, 45 it's going to corrupt the rest of our people we deal with 46 on our server, so until such time as you renew the website, 47 we'll have to decommissioned it." I'd been in negotiations

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 245 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 with them and others around redeveloping the websites prior 2 to that and obviously there's been a bit on, and at this 3 stage I haven't commissioned anyone to renew the website. 4 5 Q. It is not a priority, given it is a charity which is 6 designed to reach out to people in need? 7 A. Like I said, there's been a fair bit happening and 8 looking at the quotes - and I'm not IT savvy - some of the 9 quotes I've received are quite substantial to do both the 10 websites, CSI and CCW. I haven't moved forward with that 11 at this stage. 12 13 Q. Can I ask you please, still in volume 1, to turn to 14 page 349. 15 A. In volume 1, is it? 16 17 Q. Yes, volume 1, behind tab 27. Just to orientate 18 ourselves -- 19 A. Sorry, volume 1 has 77, 78 and 79. 20 21 Q. I think you may have volume 6. 22 A. I beg your pardon. Yes. Volume 1, yes. 23 24 Q. Volume 1, tab 27. Do you see that that starts - it is 25 the October to December Board meeting 2010. 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. There is an agenda and then there is behind it minutes 29 from the previous Board meeting of 9 November 2010. Do you 30 see that? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. Before I get to page 349, can I just ask you to look 34 at page 343. Are you able to shed any light on why it was 35 taking so long to wind up CITEA, CISC and also, while we're 36 on the topic, what was CSI Pty Ltd or Creative Safety 37 Initiatives Pty Ltd? 38 A. Sorry, can you just - what is the first part of the 39 question? 40 41 Q. I am just asking you, page 343 -- 42 A. Yes, 343, yes. 43 44 Q. Under "CFO" - and I know you are not the CFO. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. The fourth dot points talks about:

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 246 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 CITEA/CISC Consolidation/CISC Wind up. 3 4 Do you see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 7 Q. And that also raises the issue about the CSI 8 Pty Ltd winding up? 9 A. CSI? 10 11 Q. Sorry, it doesn't raise it there but it just raises 12 the topic. Are you able to say why it was taking so long 13 to transition these organisations? 14 A. Well, CISC is one organisation. You are talking about 15 the wind-up of CSI Pty Ltd. 16 17 Q. Which was trying to be done later but it still hasn't 18 been done, has it? 19 A. At this stage I believe it's in voluntary wind-up. 20 21 Q. Has it been done? 22 A. At this stage, I believe it's nearly completed. 23 24 Q. What is taking so long? 25 A. I don't exactly know. The CFO is working through it. 26 27 Q. You don't know? 28 A. No, I don't. 29 30 Q. Then in the minutes: 31 32 CEO's Report. 33 34 And then the CEO Report, I don't know that it's immediately 35 behind this particular one, but we can go over, though, to 36 page 350 and there is a Budget Analysis 2011 (CCW). It is 37 prepared by you, is it? 38 A. It says that there, but I would have had some help 39 maybe on that. 40 41 Q. What was your involvement with the preparation of this 42 document? 43 A. I may have wrote the whole lot; I can't recall at that 44 time. 45 46 Q. Under the "Expenses" heading, it says, a few entries 47 down, about five entries down:

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 247 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Senior Counsellor (CFMEU) $95,000. 3 4 A. That's right. 5 6 Q. How did that work, do you recall? 7 A. In that time we were utilising staff at the CFMEU with 8 experience in social work. 9 10 Q. Who was that? 11 A. Dean Hall and Shayne Hall. 12 13 Q. The CFMEU were being paid, were they, $95,000 for 14 that? 15 A. It was budgeted to do that in 2011, yes. 16 17 Q. You heard Mr Hall, no doubt, yesterday go through from 18 page 353 through to page 355, his account of what he 19 understood CCW to do, or perhaps page 352, I beg your 20 pardon. Did you agree with his account of the services 21 provided by CCW? 22 A. As set out here? 23 24 Q. And how he explained them. 25 A. Generally, yes. Yes. That is what he discussed 26 yesterday, you're talking about? 27 28 Q. Yes. Would you agree, though, if one could summarise 29 it, that a lot of the work done by CCW was to on-refer 30 people? 31 A. Case management, yes. 32 33 Q. And in terms of day-to-day work, although it could go 34 up and down, the training that CSI provided resulted in 35 a lot more work for the staff than the work that CCW did? 36 A. I don't know if I'd - well, comparatively maybe. 37 38 Q. Can I also ask you, in relation to a different page, 39 if you can shed any light on page 378. 40 A. What tab would that be? 41 42 Q. Yes, if you could look at page 378. It is tab 29. 43 A. Tab 29, yes. 44 45 Q. And page 378. It is part of Stephen Brennan's CEO 46 Report. Can you shed any light on why he believed that 47 Community Employment Training and Welfare Limited should be

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 248 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 a member of CCW? 2 A. I can't - can I just have a minute to read this? 3 4 Q. Sure. 5 A. And what was your question again, sorry? 6 7 Q. Do you know why Mr Brennan was in favour of having 8 CETW Limited as a member of CCW? 9 A. CETW? 10 11 Q. Community Employment Training and Welfare Limited. 12 I think he might have meant Construction Employment 13 Training and Welfare Limited. That is the company that is 14 the trustee for CSI. Do you know why he wanted it brought 15 in as a CCW structure? 16 A. No. 17 18 Q. You can put that to one side and if the witness could 19 be given volumes 2 and 3, perhaps. Did you have 20 involvement in the development of the insurance that was 21 the subject of a clause within the EBA for workers? 22 A. Did I have a role? 23 24 Q. Did you have a role in the development of that, of the 25 product? 26 A. In what year? 27 28 Q. In any year from your time, from 2010. 29 A. I may have attended a meeting, yes. 30 31 Q. That's it, one meeting? 32 A. I'm just trying to think back. When you say 33 "development of that" -- 34 35 Q. Well, use your own words. How did it come about that 36 the CFMEU came to be offering the Discretionary Trust 37 Scheme provided by JLT? Can you shed any light on that? 38 A. With a number of providers. 39 40 Q. You believed that. Were you part of that? 41 A. Yes, I was, yes. 42 43 Q. What was your involvement? 44 A. I attended a couple of meetings, yes. 45 46 Q. Who with? 47 A. Windsor and I think Coverforce.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 249 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Did you attend any with JLT? 3 A. I think I was at a meeting with JLT as well, yes. 4 5 Q. You had quite a significant involvement then? You 6 attended the meetings with three potential providers of an 7 insurance product? 8 A. I went to three meetings, yes. One with each 9 organisation. 10 11 Q. Is that the sum total of your involvement, is that 12 what you're saying? 13 A. At the meetings? 14 15 Q. No, just generally. Apart from the meetings, did you 16 have any other involvement? 17 A. In making the decision? 18 19 Q. Or developing the product, or determining what it was 20 to offer, the details of what it was to contain, how the 21 product was to be marketed, what it was to be called, 22 matters such as that. 23 A. After the decision was made, yes, I had some 24 involvement as the promoter or as CEO of CSI. 25 26 Q. Who made the decision in relation to what the product 27 would offer members? This is the Discretionary Trust 28 product. 29 A. JLT makes the decision what the product would be. 30 31 Q. And who decided that the CFMEU would be part of that? 32 A. As in part of -- 33 34 Q. Who decided that JLT would provide a product for CFMEU 35 to be offered as - I will withdraw that. You are aware 36 that the EBA has contained for a number of years 37 a clause in relation to Built-Plus? 38 A. Yes, that's right. 39 40 Q. And it started off, I think, offering - I am sorry, it 41 started off stipulating that Built-Plus would be the 42 product that should be given to the employees and then 43 I think it changed its wording, such that it should be 44 equal or better than the Built-Plus product? 45 A. Yes, I'm not involved in the EBA, so I don't know the 46 exact wording. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 250 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. You are aware that that product is part of the 2 standard form EBA that is negotiated on workers' behalf by 3 the CFMEU? 4 A. I believe that's the case, yes. 5 6 Q. It's that product that I'm interested in finding out 7 about in terms of how it came about that the CFMEU decided 8 to go with the JLT. What is your knowledge about that? 9 A. Like I said, there was a number of meetings that I was 10 a part of. 11 12 Q. And who decided that you'd go with JLT and not 13 Coverforce and not the other organisation? 14 A. I think the Executive. 15 16 Q. And who is the Executive? 17 A. There is myself, Jason O'Mara and Dean Hall. 18 19 Q. Are you really trying to assist the Commission with 20 your answers? 21 22 MR SLEVIN: I object to that. He is. He is being 23 responsive to all the questions he has been asked, 24 Commissioner. 25 26 THE COMMISSIONER: What you say is true, Mr Slevin, to 27 a considerable extent but not completely, I think. I think 28 there is going to be a potential submission from 29 Ms McNaughton of a critical kind. It is probably best it 30 be put openly to Mr Jennings so he can deal with it. Do 31 you want the last question or another question? 32 33 MS McNAUGHTON: I will move on. 34 35 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. 36 37 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Do you understand that I am asking you 38 about how the CFMEU decided to go with JLT and how that 39 decision came to be? You have now indicated that it was 40 the Executive and the way you gave that answer indicated, 41 at least to some ears, that you may not have been part of 42 the Executive the way you spoke about it in the third 43 person in that way. I mean, you were part of the Executive 44 that decided to go with the JLT product, weren't you? 45 A. I am an Honorary President of the Branch and I'm part 46 of the Executive but I don't have any part in the EBAs in 47 regards to clauses and so on, but the product, we met with

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 251 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 a number of providers that were providing cover in 2 different States and there was a decision made that we 3 would go with JLT. 4 5 Q. In terms of what JLT could offer were you content, as 6 President of the CFMEU, that it was the best product 7 available for the amount of money that was determined to be 8 spent? 9 A. Yes, I believe it was. 10 11 Q. And if you believed it was, does that mean that you 12 gave some real thought to it? 13 A. I looked at what the product was and believed that it 14 was a good solid flexible product, yes. 15 16 Q. Flexible for who? 17 A. For the employer and I suppose the employees. 18 19 Q. Were you aware that it had a discretionary component 20 to it, such that it wasn't in reality properly called 21 insurance? 22 A. I understood that it had a discretionary component, 23 yes. 24 25 Q. Such that it should not be properly called insurance? 26 A. I didn't give it that level of thought. 27 28 Q. Were you there at the presentation that I showed 29 Mr Hall this morning where it said that, "This is not 30 insurance"? 31 A. Where is that? 32 33 Q. If you go to volume 3, which I think has been provided 34 to you, behind tab 58, page 686, for example, it says it on 35 that page. Do you see: 36 37 Is a financial vehicle. 38 39 It's not insurance ... 40 41 Do you see that? 42 A. I remember being at the meeting and there being 43 a presentation but I don't know if it was this one. 44 45 Q. Can I ask you to go to page 758. There is only one 46 tab. 47 A. Yes.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 252 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you see there that's not an email by or to you but 3 it does mention you. It says that the writer of the email 4 convinced you, it would appear, Jason, to leave the 5 Coverforce pitch to the CFMEU. Does that ring any bells? 6 A. I think they might be talking about a different Jason. 7 8 Q. You think that might be Mr O'Mara? 9 A. It could be; it doesn't say. 10 11 Q. It goes on to say: 12 13 I also sat down with JJ after our meetings 14 and had a further discussion, and now have 15 the timeline you requested yesterday. 16 17 Do you see that? 18 A. I see that, yes. 19 20 Q. Do you believe that to be a reference to yourself or 21 is there another person with "JJ", those initials? 22 A. No, I'm assuming that would be me. 23 24 Q. That goes into, it would appear, some detail about 25 Silver, Gold and Bronze Cover. Do you see that? 26 A. I see that, yes. 27 28 Q. Does that ring any bells about your meeting? 29 A. I don't believe - I can't remember the meeting. This 30 email is - it's a JLT internal one, is it, is that right? 31 32 Q. Yes, it would appear so. 33 A. Yes. I can't remember the exact details when I had 34 that - if I had that meeting. 35 36 Q. It says: 37 38 I also sat down with JJ ... 39 40 Which indicates some sort of meeting of some description? 41 A. It could have been. 42 43 Q. It seems to be on this general topic. It doesn't ring 44 any bells? 45 A. Not that I can recall, no. 46 47 Q. In relation to the Coverforce pitch which is being

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 253 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 produced here, relevantly, on page 761, upwards to Mr Hall, 2 do you see there that the first CFMEU objective is said to 3 be: 4 5 Establish a source of revenue for the 6 CFMEU; 7 8 A. I see where that's written, yes. 9 10 Q. Does that accord with your understanding of what the 11 CFMEU's first priority was at that time? 12 A. From my understanding, the priority was to get a good 13 quality product for the members of the CFMEU. 14 15 Q. Was one of the priorities, if not the chief priority, 16 to get a source of revenue for the CFMEU by way of, for 17 example, promoter's fees? 18 A. No. 19 20 Q. Was that just a happy by-product of entering into this 21 arrangement? 22 A. This is the Coverforce product, is it? 23 24 Q. That's the Coverforce product, but if I can suggest to 25 you it is perhaps - it may be wrong, but it indicates, at 26 least in Coverforce's mind, that the first priority of the 27 CFMEU was to establish a source of revenue for it? 28 A. I can't comment on what Coverforce's idea was. 29 30 Q. If I ask you, though, does that accord with your 31 understanding of what the CFMEU's objectives or first 32 objective was at the time, you say no -- 33 A. No, like I said just a minute ago, it was about 34 getting a good quality product for the members of the CFMEU 35 ACT Branch. 36 37 Q. And you say that no part of entering into one product 38 over another involved a determination of whether it 39 provided a source of revenue to the CFMEU? 40 A. Not to my recollection. 41 42 Q. So the fact that it did provide a source of revenue to 43 the CFMEU is a happy coincidence, is it? 44 A. Well, the Coverforce document, I haven't seen this 45 document. 46 47 Q. No. I used that as a trigger for my question, sir.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 254 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 If you'd just concentrate on my question. Is it a happy 2 coincidence that, in fact, entering into this Discretionary 3 Trust Scheme did provide a stream of revenue for the CFMEU 4 or was it -- 5 A. Well, I can't if you're blending two products 6 together. Coverforce, from my memory, is not 7 a discretionary trust and then you're talking about 8 discretionary trusts and promoter's fees. I'm sorry, I'm 9 losing it. 10 11 Q. You seem to be well across that. You are aware that 12 entry into the JLT Discretionary Trust did provide 13 a promoter's fee to CSI which flowed through, because it 14 was the beneficiary of CSI, to the CFMEU? 15 A. No. I understood there was a promoter's fee to CSI as 16 the promoter to conduct certain promotion compliance of the 17 Trust; that's what I understand. 18 19 Q. That was regarded as simply payment for work done, no 20 sense of profit or anything of that nature? 21 A. Well, my understanding was that there is - the 22 promoter had to do certain things around compliance and 23 that's what that money was for. 24 25 Q. Given you were the CEO of the promoter, what precisely 26 did the promoter need to do? 27 A. With JLT, if there were employers, after they'd signed 28 their EBA, not sign into the product or ensure compliance, 29 that's what they would do. 30 31 Q. You had to liaise with employees, did you, or 32 employers? 33 A. No, employers. 34 35 Q. What, by phone or how did that occur? 36 A. Glenn Carlos spent a lot of time on that. 37 38 Q. Right. 39 A. Yes, so I'm assuming by phone; I don't know. 40 41 Q. You are the CEO so you would have some idea, 42 wouldn't you? 43 A. Yes. Like I said, he handled the CSI Trust and my 44 understanding was there were numerous issues in regards to 45 signing up employers and he would make contact with them. 46 47 Q. You can see from the flowchart that the promoter's

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 255 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 fees in 2013 were over $90,000 and in 2014 over $100,000: 2 that's MFI-5 and MFI-6. That is the green box down to the 3 red-ish box? 4 A. Yes. 5 6 Q. You say that that amount of work of that value was 7 performed, was it, by CSI in relation to the Trust? 8 A. My understanding was that the works were carried out 9 for it to ensure the compliance of - to receive the 10 promoter's fee. 11 12 Q. Was that at all regarded as a stream of revenue for 13 CSI? 14 A. When I was led to believe by Glenn, it was 15 time-consuming and it was redeeming the hours, the time 16 spent on it. 17 18 Q. So $100,000 or so worth of time? 19 A. That's what I was led to believe, yes. 20 21 Q. That is your understanding? 22 A. That's what I was told, yes. 23 24 Q. And you say it was Mr Carlos, do you? 25 A. At what particular time? 26 27 Q. Well, you tell me. You named him. 28 A. Glenn Carlos was employed by CSI from '12 to '14, so 29 if we are talking about that two-year period. 30 31 Q. Did a person called Clyde do any work? 32 A. I believe Glenn liaised with Clyde, yes. 33 34 Q. Who was Clyde employed by? I think it is 35 Clyde Stewart? 36 A. Yes, the CFMEU, I believe. 37 38 Q. He is employed by the CFMEU? 39 A. Now? No. 40 41 Q. Then? 42 A. I believe he was employed by the CFMEU, yes. 43 44 Q. Didn't he do a lot of follow-up work? 45 A. Again, Glenn was handling the whole thing. I think he 46 would contact Clyde for certain things, yes. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 256 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Could you kindly turn to page 892 of this volume. 2 A. Yes. 3 4 Q. This is an example. Can you see as at 15 October 5 2012, the second half of page 892, you sent a message to 6 Graeme Truscott: 7 8 Hi Graeme 9 10 Thanks for that. 11 12 So just to confirm you only require Clyde 13 to follow up on BKH and City Steel's 14 paper work and we should be all sorted? 15 16 Do you see that? 17 A. I see that, yes. 18 19 Q. And then he responds: 20 21 Hi Jason, 22 23 If Clyde could add, BCS Cleaning 24 maintenance & Van Duren painting to the BKH 25 and City Steel follow-up. 26 27 And the like. Does that indicate - and I could show you, 28 I think, some more if you need it - that at this time 29 Clyde Stewart was doing this follow-up work and he was in 30 fact employed by the CFMEU? 31 A. It sounds that way, but I think Glenn was overseeing 32 or doing - doing some work around that as well. 33 34 Q. You think or you know? 35 A. I believe that to be the case because that's 36 what - Glenn was there. He started in September. I may 37 have been working - yes, it was a long time ago. 38 39 Q. You can't recall? 40 A. I can't give - to give an answer, I can't recall 41 exactly what the process was right then at that point in 42 time. 43 44 Q. Just allow me a moment. Were you involved in making 45 sure that the product, the Discretionary Trust product, was 46 not called a name associated with the CFMEU but, rather, 47 CSI?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 257 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Not that I can recall. 2 3 Q. You can't recall? 4 A. (Witness shakes head) 5 6 Q. Can you please look at page 846. This is an email: 7 8 Hi JJ, 9 10 Please find attached the draft one pagers 11 as discussed. I will have our graphics 12 team pretty it up a little bit, but in the 13 meantime can you check the content to 14 ensure this is what you are after? 15 16 I've removed the CFMEU logo and all 17 reference to the union as requested, I can 18 add in the CSI logo if you like, just let 19 me know. 20 21 Do you recall a discussion which led to that email? 22 A. I can't remember the discussion, no. 23 24 Q. At all? 25 A. No. 26 27 Q. Can I take you back to page 836, another email to you, 28 an earlier one, a few days before: 29 30 Jason, 31 32 Please see attached revised proposal 33 showing CSI as the promoter, let me know if 34 you require changes. 35 36 Do you see that? 37 A. I see that, yes. 38 39 Q. And in fact there was a Deed that had to be entered 40 into, wasn't there, to change the promoter from CFMEU to 41 CETW Limited? 42 A. That's right, yes, I think so, yes. 43 44 Q. And if you want to look at page 833, do you see that 45 Deed? 46 A. Page 823 was it? 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 258 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. 833, just three pages back. Do you see that the 2 outgoing promoter is CFMEU ACT and the incoming promoter is 3 CETW Limited? Do you see that? 4 A. That's right, yes. 5 6 Q. Were you responsible for looking after that? This one 7 is not signed. 8 A. I think, from memory, yes, I was involved in the 9 change of name, yes. 10 11 Q. What was behind that? 12 A. It was decided that - well, I was approached to see 13 how resources at CSI would be able to cope with being the 14 promoter, having to do some work, and I said, yes, we could 15 do that and then the decision was made that CSI would be 16 the promoter, or Construction Employment Training and 17 Welfare Limited would be the promoter. 18 19 Q. That might explain why the promoter needed to be 20 changed, but why did the CFMEU logo have to come off? 21 A. I can't remember at the time having that discussion 22 with him about that. 23 24 Q. Was that because it was a priority to distance this 25 Discretionary Trust? 26 A. I don't think so. 27 28 Q. At least publicly from the CFMEU? 29 A. I don't think so. 30 31 Q. You don't think so? Was that ever discussed? 32 A. What's that, distancing itself? 33 34 Q. Yes, to make it apparent to people who didn't know 35 that CFMEU was not involved with this arrangement? 36 A. CFMEU weren't involved in the arrangement. 37 38 Q. Well, they were getting - I am sorry, CSI was getting 39 a promoter's fee and the beneficiary was the CSI Trust, the 40 only beneficiary is the CFMEU. Does that indicate any 41 involvement in your eyes? 42 A. Sorry, can I just have that question again? 43 44 Q. CSI was getting the promoter's fee? 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. The only beneficiary of the CSI Trust was the CFMEU?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 259 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Right. 2 3 Q. That's involvement, isn't it? 4 A. As the beneficiary it's involvement? 5 6 Q. It gets a financial benefit out of -- 7 A. It's the beneficiary of CSI Trust, yes. 8 9 Q. Do you think people would have been interested in 10 knowing that CFMEU was the beneficiary of the CSI Trust 11 which was getting the promoter's fee? 12 A. If they'd asked, I suppose they would be interested. 13 14 Q. Is it just a matter of them asking? Isn't it a matter 15 of the CFMEU making that very apparent? 16 A. I don't - what, the financial structure of CSI? 17 18 Q. Who was going to financially benefit from these 19 arrangements which were apparently only set up to assist 20 the workers? 21 A. Default - sorry, who would benefit from -- 22 23 Q. Financially - the CFMEU was going to financially 24 benefit from this arrangement? 25 A. In what way? 26 27 Q. You tell me. Do you say that the CFMEU was not going 28 to financially benefit from CSI being the promoter of this 29 Discretionary Trust? 30 A. Well, the promoter's fees are used to ensure 31 compliance with the product, so I don't see how that would 32 end up in there, as in as a benefit. 33 34 Q. No benefit at all, do you say? 35 A. I don't think so, no. 36 37 Q. You say that Clyde Stewart's role, if he had one, who 38 was employed by the CFMEU, stopped in terms of assisting 39 with the administration in relation to the Trust, do you? 40 A. Like I said, if Glenn was handling that, I don't know 41 what involvement Clyde had. 42 43 Q. Can I ask you to look at page 865. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. You see the document called "JLT Procedure 1 September 47 2012"?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 260 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. Have you ever seen this document before? 4 A. Not that I can remember. 5 6 Q. Do you see there that there are various roles assigned 7 to people, including yourself and Jess Dean? If you look 8 at 5, for example: 9 10 On the 20th of each month, the trustee will 11 send CSI (Jason Jennings to be forward onto 12 Jess Dean) advising them of what income 13 they are due for the previous month. 14 15 6. CSI (Jess Dean) will then provide a tax 16 invoice to the trustee for the stipulated 17 amount. 18 19 Do you see that? 20 A. I see that, yes. 21 22 Do you see up above, number 3, about halfway down the page: 23 24 If no response is received within a further 25 seven days, JLT will notify CFMEU 26 (Clyde Stewart) advising that no response 27 has been received. 28 29 A. Yes, I see that. 30 31 Q. Do you agree that that suggests that it's Mr Stewart, 32 who is employed by the CFMEU, who has the role of 33 follow-up, at least as at the date of this document? 34 A. That's what it suggests. 35 36 Q. Can I also ask you to look at the next page, 866. 37 A. Yes. 38 39 Q. Do you see the "JLT (CSI) Discretionary Trust 40 Arrangement Acceptance Form" and in that box - you would 41 have seen this because I showed Mr Hall. 42 A. I'd seen it before that. 43 44 Q. Yes. The Creative Safety Initiatives Trust, the 45 promoter's fee. 46 A. Yes. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 261 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. And nowhere on that page is the name "CFMEU" 2 mentioned. Do you see that? 3 A. I see that, yes. 4 5 Q. And you say that there was no need to mention the 6 CFMEU; is that the position? 7 A. When did I say that? 8 9 Q. I am asking you. Are you saying that? 10 A. I believed that form was used at the sign-up of the 11 EBA, so I don't know why the logo's there or not there. 12 13 Q. The fact that CSI was going to receive a promoter's 14 fee and the fact that the CFMEU is the sole beneficiary of 15 the CSI Trust -- 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. -- you say it's not important for workers or employers 19 to know that before they agree to signing up an EBA 20 containing a clause involving the Discretionary Trust? 21 A. About the promoter's fee going to CSI and then if 22 there was anything left over, going to the CFMEU. 23 24 Q. Just the CFMEU being the sole beneficiary, 25 for example, of the CSI Trust, do you think that that was 26 important for people to know prior to entering into an EBA? 27 A. I'm unsure. 28 29 Q. Or perhaps if not so legally, do you think it was 30 important that people knew before signing up into an EBA 31 that money flowed from the CSI Trust to the CFMEU as 32 a result of training CCW and the Discretionary Trust? 33 A. I believe in regards to the training and the welfare 34 that everyone knows that it's a related entity to the 35 CFMEU. 36 37 Q. It might be a related entity, sir, that people might 38 know, but do you say that everybody knew that CFMEU was 39 financially benefiting from these relationships? 40 A. I don't - I can't answer what people would think. 41 I can answer that people know the relationship between CSI 42 and CCW with the CFMEU. 43 44 Q. Do you have any knowledge of which way you think they 45 are connected? That is, do you know whether or not people 46 are of the view that the Union provides money to CSI and to 47 CCW rather than receives money from CSI and CCW? Do you

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 262 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 have any view about that? 2 A. Sorry, can I get you to ask that again? 3 4 Q. You say that people know that there is a relationship. 5 Yes? 6 A. Yes, everyone knows that there's a relationship, yes. 7 8 Q. But do you know which way, do you have any idea as to 9 which way the relationship runs in people's minds, to your 10 understanding? 11 A. I think they know that there's a relationship between 12 the entities as a group. 13 14 Q. Any financial relationship, do you think people know? 15 A. I can't answer what people might or may not think. 16 17 Q. Can I ask that the witness please be shown volume 5. 18 Sir, have you seen this volume before coming here today? 19 A. This volume? 20 21 Q. The material contained in the volume, which is 22 a series of The Building Worker which is the journal of the 23 CFMEU ACT Branch, Construction and General Division? 24 A. I've seen the journals, yes. 25 26 Q. Would be kind enough please to turn to tab D. 27 A. D, yes. 28 29 Q. For example. 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Page 1764. 33 A. 1764. Yes. 34 35 Q. There appears to be an image of you on that page? 36 A. That's me, yes. 37 38 Q. And it says: 39 40 Jason Jennings President. 41 42 Do we take it from the way the page is set out, with your 43 image and your name and your position, that you have either 44 written this or are happy to be associated with the 45 article on this page? 46 A. You could say that, yes. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 263 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Could you go to the very last paragraph under the 2 heading, "More Information"? 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. It says: 6 7 Both CIS and CCW are initiatives for the 8 Tradies Group of Clubs, and are supported 9 by the ACT Branch of the CFMEU. 10 11 A. Supported in its work. 12 13 Q. Right. Do you agree that it would be open for 14 a reasonable reader of that article to assume that it is 15 intended to convey that the CFMEU provides money to CSI and 16 CCW and not the other way round? 17 A. I think that it indicates that the CFMEU support the 18 work of, as in the work that CCW does, CSI does. 19 20 Q. As we know from the charts, money flows from CSI to 21 the CFMEU because it is a beneficiary, I am sorry, the 22 CFMEU is a beneficiary of the Trust, and management fees 23 flow from CCW to CSI as well. Do you think that that 24 article is misleading? 25 A. I don't think it sort of talks about - no. 26 27 Q. You don't think that article is misleading? 28 A. I don't think so. 29 30 Q. So you say "supported by" means some sort of fuzzy 31 general support and is not meant to connote any financial 32 support, are you? 33 A. Supported as an initiative, as a training company, 34 because the article was about CSI training. Correct? So 35 it leads into work and the quality training that CSI 36 provides, so it supports it in that context. 37 38 Q. And not only does it support it in that context, it 39 mandates that the Approved Training Authority in the EBA is 40 CSI; that's right, isn't it? 41 A. It mandates organisations that have a formal training 42 program with the Approved Training Authority which is CSI. 43 44 Q. And that if a worker wishes to use another training 45 company, their Union representative would have a conflict 46 of interest, would they not, in assisting that worker go to 47 another training company that doesn't financially benefit

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 264 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 the CFMEU? 2 A. No. A number of organisations and workers go to other 3 training providers even though the clause is in place. 4 5 Q. What do you say about the conflict of interest that an 6 organiser may have in assisting a worker go to another 7 training organisation which doesn't have financial benefits 8 to the CFMEU? 9 A. I don't think - if an organisation wants to go to 10 another training provider and they don't want the clause in 11 the EBA, I would assume - I don't negotiate EBAs - that the 12 clause wouldn't go in. 13 14 Q. What do you say about an organiser having a conflict 15 of interest in assisting a worker go to another training 16 organisation that doesn't have a financial benefit? 17 A. I don't think there is a conflict of interest. 18 19 Q. That is your honest answer to the Royal Commission? 20 A. That's what I believe, yes. 21 22 Q. And would your answer be the same in relation to the 23 dollar mandated to go to CCW as opposed to another charity 24 that doesn't have any financial connection to the CFMEU, 25 either directly or indirectly? 26 A. If they want to go to another organisation, yes, 27 that's fine. 28 29 Q. I'm asking now about conflict of interest with the 30 organiser who is purporting to represent the workers' 31 interests but at the same time works for the CFMEU and is 32 trying to make sure that that organisation is financially 33 viable. Do you think there's any conflict of interest? 34 A. The organiser is trying to make what organisation 35 financially viable? 36 37 Q. Isn't part of the role of a Union organiser to, 38 for example, sign up new members? 39 A. I suppose so. I don't - I'm not actively working in 40 the Branch. 41 42 Q. You are the President of the Branch? 43 A. I'm an Honorary President of the Branch. 44 45 Q. You have no opinion about it? 46 A. Well, I believe that, yes, to further the Union and 47 build the Union, that they would be concentrating on

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 265 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 membership, yes. 2 3 Q. And that they'd also be trying to maximise the amount 4 of revenue coming to the Union, that would be right, in 5 a proper way? 6 A. Through membership? 7 8 Q. And through other means. For example, by promoting -- 9 A. Money from CCW clause goes to CCW's work, so I don't 10 know where you are getting it back to supporting the Union 11 financially. 12 13 Q. And you say that it is not paying an inflated 14 management fee -- 15 A. I don't believe it is for the work that it does. 16 17 Q. And you say that there's no conflict of interest in an 18 organiser assisting a worker or persuading a worker of the 19 benefits of signing up to the EBA, if that worker actually 20 wants to, for example, use a different training 21 organisation that has no financial flow-through to the 22 CFMEU? 23 A. Whether they've got the clause in the EBA or not, they 24 use other providers. 25 26 Q. Just allow me a moment. Could the witness please have 27 those volumes he has with him returned and then to have 28 volume 1 returned to him. Sir, do you recall the evidence 29 of Mr Hall yesterday where he indicated, if my 30 understanding is correct, that only 6 per cent of CSI's 31 income came about as a result of EBAs? 32 A. Probably, yes. 33 34 Q. Have you had any discussion with either him or 35 Mr Brennan since then about how that figure is made up? 36 A. Since yesterday? 37 38 Q. Yes. 39 A. No. 40 41 Q. Are you aware whether or not Mr Brennan has provided 42 a document, either directly or on his behalf, to the 43 Commission as to how he's made up that percentage? 44 A. Well, there was a notice to produce served on 45 Construction Employment Training and Welfare Limited 46 yesterday. 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 266 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 Q. Did you assist in answering that notice to produce? 2 A. I asked Steve Brennan to provide the information. 3 4 Q. Do you know where he obtained the information from? 5 A. I believe his accounts team, I suppose. 6 7 Q. Would you be kind enough to go to, in volume 1, tab 7. 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Just notice in the first instance that is the 11 financial report for 2013 for CSI; do you see that? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Creative Safety Initiatives Trust it is called? 15 A. Yes, that's right. 16 17 Q. If we go over to page 87, do you see there 18 "Program revenue" under the heading, "Income"? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. That is $1,196,410? 22 A. Yes, that's right. 23 24 Q. And the next item under "Income" is 25 "Management Income" and I think we've seen that that comes 26 solely from CCW? 27 A. Yes. 28 29 Q. And then there is "Other Income" of $107,912? 30 A. Yes. 31 32 Q. Where do you understand that comes from? 33 A. Could I ask that I get the extended P&L for that year? 34 Have you got that information? 35 36 Q. I don't know that we have been provided -- 37 A. I can't answer a question about "Other Income" I don't 38 know. 39 40 Q. All right. Can you answer at least this? See how it 41 says "Note 2" next to "Program revenue"? 42 A. Mmm-hmm. 43 44 Q. Can we then go to Note 2? That is at page 91. 45 A. Yes. 46 47 Q. And that is right at the bottom of the page and it

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 267 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 says "Other Training revenue". Do you see that? 2 A. I do see that, yes. 3 4 Q. Is it your understanding that all the training revenue 5 is that $1.1 million or so? 6 A. From what I'm seeing here, without the document 7 I asked to be produced, I would assume so. 8 9 Q. I have a summary document prepared from the general 10 ledgers, prepared by our forensic accountant, if that's of 11 any use. 12 A. Yes, without seeing it - if I could have a look that 13 would be - thank you. Yes. 14 15 Q. Does that satisfy your query? 16 A. It satisfies that 90,000 came from the promoter fee 17 and "Other", it says "17", I don't know what that would be. 18 19 Q. But would you agree that it would appear that the 20 training money is included only under the item, 21 "Program revenue"? 22 A. I would assume so, yes. 23 24 Q. Could I show you then the document that has been 25 produced pursuant to the Notice to Produce that was served 26 yesterday and produced today from Mr Brennan. Have you 27 seen that before? 28 A. This document? 29 30 Q. Yes. 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. When did you see it? 34 A. Back in June; May, June, something like that. 35 36 Q. Can you say the circumstances in which you saw it? 37 A. I'd had a discussion with Steve Brennan. 38 39 Q. What about? 40 A. About the analysis of the EBA clause. 41 42 Q. Could you turn to page 2 of those pages; it is not 43 numbered but the second page. 44 A. Yes. 45 46 Q. "CSI EBA Customer Analysis" and there is a little 47 chart or table been prepared.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 268 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Yes. 2 3 Q. It says, "Total value of EBA customers". Going across 4 to 2013 column, there is a figure there. The second line 5 down is "Total value of all customers", do you see that, 6 and it is a figure of $1,618,547, and under that it is 7 6 per cent. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 10 Q. Do you know where that $1.6 million or so figure came 11 from? 12 A. I didn't prepare the document, no. I don't know where 13 it's from. 14 15 Q. No, I didn't ask if you prepared it. Do you know 16 where that figure came from? 17 A. I don't. I wasn't involved in producing the document, 18 so I don't know where the figure came from. 19 20 Q. But if we see what we have just seen on page 87, we 21 can see there that the "Program revenue" is not 22 1.6 million, the total program, it would appear to be 23 1.196 million. 24 A. That's what it says in the document. 25 26 Q. It is quite a different figure, isn't it? 27 A. Well, yes. 28 29 Q. You can't shed any light on how Mr Brennan came to get 30 that figure, even though it doesn't appear in the accounts? 31 A. I don't know how he came up with that figure. 32 33 Q. Do I take it from that, if I ask you to go to 34 page 100, which relates to the following year, the 2014 35 year, we're again -- 36 A. Is that tab 8? 37 38 Q. Yes. 39 A. Starting at page 97, is that right? 40 41 Q. It starts at page 97, but if I could ask you to go to 42 the equivalent page at page 100. 43 A. I'm sorry, I beg your pardon, you did say that. 44 Apologies. 45 46 Q. Again, we have a course revenue figure that's 47 different to the figure that apparently Mr Brennan has used

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 269 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 in his calculations, quite different. In the accounts it 2 is 1.5 million or so, whereas Mr Brennan has a figure of 3 over 2 million? 4 A. Yes. Again, I can't comment on where he got his 5 figures from. 6 7 Q. Are there other accounts, apart from the ones that we 8 have been given? 9 A. Not that I know of. 10 11 Q. To your knowledge? 12 A. Not that I know of. 13 14 Q. Are these the official accounts, so far as you are 15 aware; that is, the ones that I've just shown you at 16 page 100 and page 87? 17 A. I believe they're the annual accounts, yes. 18 19 MS McNAUGHTON: Could that be received into evidence, the 20 document I have just shown the witness, Commissioner. 21 22 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. The document produced by 23 Mr Brennan will be CSI MFI-13. 24 25 CSI MFI-13 DOCUMENT PRODUCED BY MR BRENNAN 26 27 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Can I go to a different topic now. 28 I have asked you about the Discretionary Trust. There was 29 another Trust, we've heard about that, which is the one 30 that is designed only for CFMEU members. 31 A. Correct. 32 33 Q. Can you indicate to the Commission how that came 34 about, to your understanding? 35 A. I think Glenn Carlos had had discussions with JLT 36 about fulfilling the requirements of what now is - what 37 I call Trust 2, in regards to the emergency transport 38 cover. They came back with a proposal. 39 40 Q. Where did the money come from to pay those premiums or 41 amounts that had to go into the insurance scheme? 42 A. Paid by the CFMEU. 43 44 Q. Was that just out of general revenue? 45 A. I'd say so, yes. 46 47 Q. So you don't know?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 270 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 A. Well, I don't know the books intimately, no. 2 3 Q. Perhaps you could be shown the CFMEU Forensic 4 Accounting Analysis CSI/CCW. 5 6 THE COMMISSIONER: I don't think this has been marked yet. 7 8 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you please -- 9 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Ms McNaughton, should that be marked? 11 12 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, please. 13 14 THE COMMISSIONER: CSI MFI-14 will be the forensic 15 accounting analysis. 16 17 CSI MFI-14 FORENSIC ACCOUNTING ANALYSIS 18 19 MS McNAUGHTON: Q. Could you please go to tab 14. 20 A. Yes, I am at page 116. 21 22 Q. Yes, and then go to page 129. Do you see there a -- 23 A. Sorry, I'm just not there. Page 129, is it? 24 25 Q. Yes, page 129. 26 A. Yes. 27 28 Q. Do you see there a receipt from JLT? It says: 29 30 Received From: JLT (CSI Member Benefits) 31 Discretionary Trust (JDT) (CFMEUACT). 32 33 And it is for the amount of $39,352.50? 34 A. Yes. 35 36 Q. The next page is a Commonwealth Bank statement 37 relating to CFMEU ACT? 38 A. That's what it seems to be, yes. 39 40 Q. Have you seen this document before? 41 A. The bank statement? 42 43 Q. Yes. 44 A. No. 45 46 Q. Could you go over to page 132? 47 A. Yes, 132.

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 271 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 Q. Do you see there under 4 June the amount of 3 $39,352.50? 4 A. I see that, yes. 5 6 Q. And that's a debit? 7 A. Yes. 8 9 Q. On 5 June, so the next day, do you see that there is 10 a Trust Distribution of $40,000, on the next page, 11 page 133. 12 A. Page 133, is it? 13 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. I see that, yes. 16 17 Q. It is about eight entries down. Do you see there 18 $40,000? 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. Can I just give you another example. Before I do 22 that, just for completeness, page 134, withdrawal for 23 - this is the CETW account, Construction Employment 24 Training account from Westpac. 25 A. Yes. 26 27 Q. The full name is Construction Employment Training & 28 Welfare Limited as Trustee for Creative Safety Initiatives 29 Trust. Do you see there the withdrawal to CFMEU of 30 $40,000? 31 A. Yes. 32 33 Q. That is a day apart of money going into JLT and then 34 to the CFMEU from the CSI Trust? 35 A. Sorry, can you just say that again? 36 37 Q. A day apart, 4 and 5 June, money coming out and almost 38 the same amount of money coming back in? 39 A. That's what it seems like, yes. Taking into 40 consideration, I suppose, delays of payments, yes, that's 41 what it seems like. 42 43 MS McNAUGHTON: Actually, is that a convenient time, 44 Commissioner? 45 46 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I think so. Shall we resume at 47 10 tomorrow morning?

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 272 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI 1 2 MS McNAUGHTON: Yes, thank you. 3 4 THE COMMISSIONER: The hearing will resume at 10am 5 tomorrow. 6 7 AT 3.59PM THE COMMISSION WAS ADJOURNED TO THURSDAY, 8 6 AUGUST 2015 AT 10AM 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47

.05/08/2015 CFMEU FUNDS 273 J J JENNINGS (Ms McNaughton) Transcript produced by DTI