Interviewer) and Minneapolis, Minnesota (Interviewee

Interview with Zander Tsadwa #2 (Zander, an American)

Henry Bump, Interviewer

May 3rd, 2021

St Paul, Minnesota (interviewer) and Minneapolis, Minnesota (interviewee)

Conducted via Zoom

Henry Bump (00:00:00):

All right. Sweet. Okay. Um, today is May 3rd, 2021. It's what 5:16. I'm here with Zander Tsadwa for our second conversation. Um, it's going to be great. We're going to talk about some more community-based things today. And I figured to start the question off, um, I mean, to start the interview off, I can start the questions. So Zander, what part of St. Paul are you from?

Zander Tsadwa (00:00:26):

I am from most accurately and from the north end, so more at five. Um, compared to most of my friends, I lived east, but it's not quite the east side. So it's, uh, it's a bit ambiguous, you know, it's not quite as defined as like the east side or like Macalester Groveland or Highland or even, uh, like south St

Paul or whatever. But, but yeah, uh, from north St Paul, I guess is what you, what say.

Henry Bump (00:01:02):

Okay, cool. Cool. Cool. So from north St. Paul, but now where are you currently at?

Zander Tsadwa (00:01:10):

Currently based in north Minneapolis? Uh, I feel like I just stay in the Northern parts of places. So like even, um, where my parents are from which I'm sure you'll ask a little more about later, but they're from the Northern part of Ethiopia. Tigray so that's the funny question is I'm always, I'm always in the

Northern parts of places. Um, even in Tucson, I was the Tucson I was in like north Tucson. So.

Henry Bump (00:01:33):

Is that Northern Arizona too, or no?

Zander Tsadwa (00:01:35):

Uh, no that that's not, not Tucson is actually a border town, so, um, that's the, I guess that's the only inconsistency, but yeah. Yeah, I guess I just like to stay up north. Yeah.

Henry Bump (00:01:47):

So what made you go from St. Paul to Minneapolis? Are you, are your parents still in St. Paul ?

Zander Tsadwa (00:01:54):

My parents are now in Atlanta, I guess the Metro area, thankfully. Um, yeah, so I was actually, I was born in Sioux falls, South Dakota, and that's like a really wild part about my backstory, but also kind of explain stuff for me. Um, but I was there until I was eight. It was kind of like a blank slate for me because everyone was white and everyone was like just Midwestern and like close to home. And yeah, so I didn't, I didn't understand my differences right away. I had no other reference points. It was like, it was me, my sister, and then just like, oh, just people from Sioux falls. So, and then I moved to St. Paul when I was eight and I spent the rest of my childhood there. So like I grew up in St. Paul, most of my formative years are from same, are in St. Paul. Um, that's kind of where I became like aware to the world. Right.

Like my own person. Um, I went college in St. Paul, so another, uh, good enough their four years and then moved to Tucson.

Zander Tsadwa (00:03:07):

Yeah. Went to Tucson in 2017. So my then girlfriend now fiance, um, she got a really good offer to go to the University of Arizona to get a PhD. Um, yeah. And then in the meantime, it's like, cool. Like, you'll be connected, like deeply connected to University. I can write and share like my equity work and my music, whatever, just college kids, you know, the wild cats and all that. Um, so yeah, Tucson for three years and then came back up here. Um, with, again, my, my, my, my girl got an offer to work at the U of M and then me personally at like, I think we both wanted to come back for the sense of community and I knew it would be better for my like creative endeavors to just having community. It was, I found that difficult to, to really create it Tucson, uh, making friends as an adult is hard, but I don't know.

Zander Tsadwa (00:04:13):

Um, yeah, that's what took, that's what took me back here. Um, and then Minneapolis, because it was a little easier to, I guess, find a, find a little place for us to rent and St. Paul was an option, but, but yeah, I don't know. I feel like it's almost like a glow up, like people.

Henry Bump (00:04:31):

Yeah, yeah. People who come up then once they got it, they go to Minneapolis.

Zander Tsadwa (00:04:37):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's uh, and it's funny because it's not that St Paul isn't livable. It's actually, I think a really beautiful city, but like when you're young trying to do something, I feel like there's, there's just

3 more happening in Minneapolis. Um, obviously more people more companies are based here. Um, yeah, it's, it's different. So I

Henry Bump (00:05:03):

I remember when I came here and I went on my visit, people were telling me, they were like, you know, you marry St. Paul, but you date Minneapolis. Right. Like Minneapolis is where people, all the fun and light like limelight and stuff is whereas St. Paul is like your nice little neighborhood to settle down and

Zander Tsadwa (00:05:18):

Yes, yes.

Henry Bump (00:05:21):

So you talk about South Dakota, Arizona, and Minnesota. And you've gone from like, all these places.

Are the twin cities, like the most influential that you would say on your music or

Zander Tsadwa (00:05:32):

Absolutely Yeah. Um, I mean, I don't want to say too much, but again, it's like my, my formative years were spent here. Um, I think the, like when I really determined what my perspective was just on myself and the world, it was here, it was, you know, the 6:40 AM bus rides in the winter to school. And because

I was so far away from my high school, uh, it took almost like an hour to because I was like one of the first stops on the route. So it was like 6:40 AM, you know, seat six through eight. And I wasn't like just up front, but I also wasn't wiling in the back and I had a little, little bump in seat seven, put my knees up backpack window and just really daydream. And like, all that stuff happened here. Like, you know, becoming aware of being black happened here. Um, some of my best friends, obviously. Um, yeah, man,

I think just living here really shaped like what I wanted to get out of life and just knowing my place in it so easily, most, important place I've lived.

Henry Bump (00:06:53):

The bus. I remember we were talking about sort of where you grew up earlier and the, uh, the bus stop.

And did it pick you up on Rice street ever or where was the stop at?

Zander Tsadwa (00:07:02):

It depended because I mean, sometimes it would change and then we also, they're kind of like two eras of me. Well, I guess three. Um, but I was, I was in college with a third one, so my family lived in so two 0 eight West Hoyt and that was like really dingy and like as hood as the experience I had, but it, I mean, it wasn't that terrible of St. Paul. It just like relative to, I don't know, people have lived in houses or, you know, didn't have like a lot of weed smoking neighbors, or the occasional gunshot. So that was like fourth through 10th grade. Um, my sophomore year we moved down the street, it was a nicer apartment. Uh, and then we stayed there. Well, until I graduated and then a couple of years after, and then my parents moved into something small before they moved to Atlanta. But yeah, I kind of like separate my experiences with those two arrows. Um, and the stops were never on Rice street but they were close though. I remember my first one was Hoyt and Albemarle. I remember that the bus driver would like shout every stop when she pulled over. She was nice. She was just like, I don't know, like mid forties, you know, well bigger kind of short, like dedicated to the job type of person. So she'd pull up like, okay, cool. It was like, it was just really memorable.

Zander Tsadwa (00:08:38):

Yeah. It was funny. It's funny. So yeah.

Henry Bump (00:08:43):

Tell us, tell us a little bit about, I know that probably Rice street was probably like a big part of you and growing up around there and I listened to the song for everybody out there who hasn't got to listen to it,

Rice street, boy, Rip bones. So I just wanted to, you know, hear a little bit about that. I'm assuming it was obviously inspired by his passing and want to sort of tell us about the timeline on that and then also you creating it. I think that'd be great.

Zander Tsadwa (00:09:11):

Sure. Uh, so bones, uh, Mike Hartsell was a Vietnam war vet who ended up, um, on the street. I think he had, like, I'm not sure if PTSD was a thing, but I know drugs and like they're just symptoms of unwellness after his war experience. So he had been living on Rice street long before I was even a thing. Um, a lot of the footage and the music video is actually from like 1999. So I think, let's see I got there in 03. So, so as long as I've known him that that was just bones. Um, yeah, he passed in 2018. And what was really memorable about him was his contentment with his situation. Um, and just how like routine and pretty,

I guess normal has his presence was just like going down sidewalk sweeping. And, um, he never said much, but he had relationships with like, um, you know, he'd get meals here and there from them and, you know, they check up on them and he'd have conversations.

Zander Tsadwa (00:10:30):

And like that, that to him was being a part of the community. So that was interesting to me. Um, just him helping himself in that way, despite being easily, like in the most pitiable position, I think. Um, and that's saying a lot because like, I dunno, there are a lot of immigrants that lived in that area. Um, even the white folk, like they were working class, you know, they were, they weren't, they weren't doing a whole lot, like, which isn't to say that, you know, St. Paul wasn't segregated, like a lot of American cities are, it's just like, you know, if you were there? You probably weren't. It was like a paycheck to paycheck type of experience. So, yeah, man, I feel like we all intersect stories. Um, it's really, we're really good at

6 being the main characters in our stories, especially because like now we have the tools to capture our experience.

Zander Tsadwa (00:11:32):

It's it's, we're going crazy right now. Like millennials, gen Z we're, we're all really good at chronicling ourselves and telling things, our vantage points, I think is really hard to understand, not just another person's experience, but also like maybe your role in another person's story. Um, I want to write more things that are like, that really decentralize me, or maybe even like see me from someone else's perspective, but I think with rip bones, um, I just wanted to like, you know, just write about someone else for a little bit and then how, like that fit into the orbit of my life and make them look more like a, like a Venn diagram of experience versus being like I don't know, I am me and this is this person, this is what it did to me. It was kind of like, you know, let's talk about bones.

Zander Tsadwa (00:12:26):

Like we're here. Like we're just in bones land and then you open the circle up and then you bring me back into it. So, yeah, I really just wanted to, like, I wanted to use him as a symbol of stuff. I learned of the conditions of my neighborhood. And then I inserted myself like on that foundation. So I like, I like writing like that. I like focusing on people. I think people are cool. I think people, you know, we shape each other, we create our reality, you know? Um, I'm going a little long-winded here, but I really, I really feel like, you know, that song is special because it's, you know, you're just taking yourself out of like that perspective for a little bit. And then just seeing like, oh, like that's, that's this person's impact on the world or like, or even me. Um, so yeah, that's, uh, that's like some background, I guess, the timeline for making it.

Zander Tsadwa (00:13:28):

I wrote it actually wrote it in Tucson. I was thinking about St. Paul. Um, I was listening to a lot of Eloit holler type beats, so if you don't know he's a south Korean, he's like a pianist and producer. He produced on Cordae's, lost boy album. So he's grammy nominated. Yeah. Um, is it, it's so funny. I love the internet because he's just, he's a type beat producer. Like he's just on YouTube and he's really nice with the piano. Like, he's, he is a musician, but like, you know, I've bought beats from him for 29 bucks, like 20.99. So you know, that the barriers to entry are very low these days. It's just

Henry Bump (00:14:07):

Like a thing that's like democratization of attention that we talked about in the last one. It's also the same exact thing was sort of like diffusing of music across from one place to another.

Zander Tsadwa (00:14:17):

The, the attention is the last is the last thing that needs to be democratized because everyone has the resources now. But like I said, I got beats from a Grammy nominated producer for 30 bucks each. So, so, but yeah, I was really into his sound. I had made with my friend Abby, um, stage name, ABC, you know, a lot of songs with him using Eluid beats. He did like a lot of Smino. Amine, Amine, uh, my, yeah, those types of beats Reggie snow. So like, I dunno, it was like liquidy. It was nostalgic, you know, it, his percussion was, it is interesting. Like, he'll have like, like rattling as like sounds or, you know, almost

ASMR. Like he, like, he has like, there's like a water drop in the RFP bones instrument instrumental. Um, so yeah, coming through, I wrote the song to one of his beats.

Zander Tsadwa (00:15:21):

Yeah. And then, um, when I got to Minnesota, it just felt more relevant. So I was like, okay, I want to finish it. The beat I wrote to originally I think was sold. So I found another one. Um, and the mood fit better actually. So I was, I was happy about that. Um, and yeah, I recorded it last summer. Finished it

8 then. And actually didn't think of doing a music video until I realized I had my video person out here for like four days. And the goal was to shoot a black man in Minnesota. Once we had time, I was like, oh, this actually wouldn't be that hard. So then we got a video out of it. Yeah.

Henry Bump (00:16:04):

Did the other one, one of the shots and like my favorite one is when it's, there's the visuals of bones, like shoveling and then sweeping. And then, like you said, so you talk about him, take yourself out of the equation. And then towards the latter end of the song, I think it's like two minutes and something seconds into the video. You then bring yourself back in and you're shoveling and sweeping the same exact spot that he was in it. And also one of the lines in there is your like, bones was everything that I believe in and then throughout the whole time. There's like a little sample of not a homeless man, just without man, without a home. And I guess some of those things that you were talking about him believing in, and then you sort of show it through you shoveling, I guess, sort of, where are you talking about there? That I don't really know him too well, so I wasn't able to sort of have the same interactions, I guess, that you may have.

Zander Tsadwa (00:16:48):

Yeah. So some of the values I, I mentioned in the verses, like, especially the second verse. So like the idea that no, one's really in a position to, to help you, um, in a working-class neighborhood like that. So you gotta help yourself. Um, so for him it was just like, he really didn't rely on anyone for anything, you know, like people gave him food out of the kindness of their hearts to okay, cool. But you know, he also could easily tell himself, like he earned it and he did, he, he kept the block clean. He, I don't know that there's something homely about his presence, even though he was homeless, like when you were there and you saw him there, it was very comforting. It was very constant. It was very like, I don't know,

9 affirming in a lot of ways. So, you know, whatever, whatever you got in life from people, it seemed like he earned.

Zander Tsadwa (00:17:43):

I would say he earned, um, he was by himself, but he didn't seem as far as we know, bothered by that.

Um, whatever, whatever did bother him, if anything really did bother him. Like, I guess we'll never know. I'm sure like a lot of people came back from Vietnam messed up, so whatever, whatever it was, I don't think it was really solitude or not having a roof that like disturbed him. You know, those things actually didn't seem, you know, like, especially the interview at the, at the end where, uh, the interviewer asked him, like, Homes where the heart is. Where's your heart? And he's like, know, sometimes I wonder he like, chuckles you know, he, he's a very charismatic guy, so I'll talk about that kind of stuff. And then toward the end, I'm like, yeah, like this dude in some ways was like a model, like a model of character for me. So yeah. I mean, he wasn't, he wasn't a rapper, he wasn't, I didn't idolize bones, but

Henry Bump (00:18:44):

You idolize what he stood for.

Zander Tsadwa (00:18:47):

Yeah. And then at the end of the day, like, especially like after he passed and it was like remembering how like consistent his presence was, whether I was biking down the street or driving back from school, like there I saw him in a lot of different moods, all different seasons, and there's just something really persistent about how he lived life. So it just made sense for me to like, respect that and kinda, you know,

I, I wanted to, I wanted some of those values to like, be in my life and be in how I conduct myself.

Henry Bump (00:19:29):

So yeah, one of the lines at the end you go, it wasn't all nice to me. It wasn't all nice to me, but a Rice street boy is nice to be, I guess, it's that sort of talking about sort of the experiences you had that at the time may not have seen present may not have seemed pleasant, but now that you are in the present sort of shaped you to be someone that you're proud of. Want to really talk about that?

Zander Tsadwa (00:19:49):

That. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. And that's the hook. I mean, that's why it's the hook. Cause like what I, what I described isn't, you know, I don't describe Rice Street as like the, the shiniest place, you know, um, obviously the twin cities is known for its infrastructure, like issues. It was just like, as soon as it gets warm, it's construction season. So whenever there's no snow, it's just total construction. Um, and you know, the, the more out of the way, the more that, you know, happens, it takes up space. Um, obviously the highways, but, you know, so there's that, uh, and things weren't, they weren't broken down, but you could tell that no one from outside of the neighborhood, or like the city didn't, you know, give it time or attention or energy. So things started to look like they sagged under their own weight. And, you know, it's kinda like someone in their forties having a midlife crisis or the mom that just never found the time to take care of herself, or that's kind of what Rice street looks and feels like for me.

Zander Tsadwa (00:21:15):

Uh, so like the shot and the video, the shot of me against like the white wall of Arlington, which is actually now Washington middle school, it's just like, is, is, is worn. You know, it's, it seems like it's yeah, no one, no one has done anything for it in a long time. So, yeah. Um, in that way, I guess, Rice street, wasn't, wasn't like super encouraging to be a part of. And then of course, uh, just daily, weekly struggles with money, sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down, sometimes you had cable, but no internet, sometimes the internet, but no cable. Depending on what your parents thought was going to save them some money. Uh, yeah, just a lot of stuff. Like, and then culture clashes were interesting. I never, like, I

11 didn't really get bullied or like, I didn't have a, you know, I didn't have like a, like a Kendrick Lamar experience with gangs or anything, but sometimes you to get into it with some hmong kids that wanted to like, I don't know, you use the little English they knew to call you a nigga.

Zander Tsadwa (00:22:21):

Or like other times, you know, you'd be with like your younger, younger friends and then some older kids in the neighborhood and, you know, just regular shit like, yeah, let me see your bike. Or, you know, let's hoop, or I don't know, just, you know, stuff like that. I haven't been violently robbed or anything, but, you know, I've gotten into it with people, uh, I've been made fun of, or just questioned for maybe how I sound, how I look like what I think about, so, yeah, like I just became more aware of like how I look to people and that, that kind of pushing out of your shell of understanding or self understanding that can be painful, but it's always best for you in the long run. Like at the end of the day you want to be in community with people, um, the places in life where your value will be, you know, respected and appreciated. It's just a community of humans. So, yeah. Yeah. Um, growing pains, uh, that's where I experienced the most of my growing pains like just being there.

Henry Bump (00:23:43):

That's really interesting, but at the end of the thing, this is sort of my last question on, um, Rice street boy, before we can move on to the next song, but there's a little slide that says sort of, so I'm taking a medical geography class, and this is in part why I got ask this question. It says, why should health issues or unemployment cost a person their dignity? And I guess, I didn't really know what you meant by that, in that sense, in regards to this story specifically.

Zander Tsadwa (00:24:07):

Yeah. I mean, I guess so I do in the song, I mentioned that bones, you know, was like a, Vietnam war veteran. And the, the popular understanding of why he was homeless was like mental health issues, drug addiction issues. Um, and yeah, I guess I just, I see something like that, someone that was promised like, you know, you are a hero for serving this country. We talk about service, like the assumption or like the, the leading definition of that in an American context is being in the military. So offering your body, offering your life is like, not just your time at a job, which is already something I can, I can go on about, but you know, like your life is now being a defender of the free world and yeah. And then a lot, a lot of them come back and just aren't treated like that, you know?

Zander Tsadwa (00:25:11):

Um, and not just, not just War Vets, but I think people that try to be a productive member of society that fail one way or another, you know, you aren't really valued past what you can produce in this country. Most people that are homeless are like, you know, either incapable of being as productive as the world wants them to be in order to like be given shelter. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to like ask a question that, that principle or that idea, like, you know, how, and then it understanding that he has just like, just like you being, you know, uh, uh, being worthy of like shelter from the elements and food, you know, like if you're, if you're alive and you're not actively causing people harm, what, why, why aren't some of these base level things not available to you? Like, why don't you have them? You know, I really believe that if we didn't hoard or we didn't, you know, see a person or like, we, we, we didn't stop seeing a person at like their productivity, like we'd have enough of everything for everybody, water, food, shelter, everything seriously. So, yeah. I just want to question that.

Henry Bump (00:26:47):

You see this sort of like this disproportionate distribution, let's say, let's say disproportionate distribution of resources, because that's kind of what homelessness is in a sense is that like all these

13 necessities and resources that we talk about as essential are given out because of this lack of

"productivity." Right. And have you seen in your own neighborhood, a spike in this sort of, um, in, in, in say homelessness since the pandemic?

Zander Tsadwa (00:27:15):

Oh yeah. Uh, so I wouldn't say,

Henry Bump (00:27:19):

Like the changes of how your neighborhood has looked since March.

Zander Tsadwa (00:27:22):

Yeah. So excuse me. So more, um, I wouldn't say right in north Minneapolis, and of course, like I came back, I came back two weeks before lockdown, so I didn't get to see north Minneapolis, like 2019. Um, yeah, that wasn't like my, my view, but I will say, uh, we had a route, so my fiance and I, we had a route to the St. Louis Park target and like Costco and we, like every two weeks would go, right. And for a couple months, like in the heat of the pandemic, we would see new people on the medians, the curbs, and for the most part, they were black. Yeah. And you could also tell that they were, they were recently made homeless because they were like, they were still put together. So like groomed, like their clothes weren't worn down or, you know, salvaged at the last moment from like a place.

Zander Tsadwa (00:28:40):

So I was like, oh, wow. Like where, like we're actively seeing, you know, the most vulnerable among us, like just lose homes, you know? Um, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. And then I just, over the past year, I've just been reading more about housing and like renter's protection. And even just the ability to like, to own stuff is disproportionate by race, by class, like in St. Paul. I don't know if this was the city or like the

14 pioneer press that reported it, but 81% of black households in St. Paul as of 2019 were rented compared to just 41% of white households. So the, the inability to own stuff, the, the disproportion in like the people most vulnerable to like rent, hikes, gentrification, like, um, yeah. Like the people that can lose their homes are, you know, it's usually decided by race, it's decided by class and I saw that in real time, in the pandemic. So, yeah.

Henry Bump (00:29:55):

Yeah. I live on like right off a University and basically the corners there it's like gradually filling up. So that like, sort of every little in-between spot where there's a stoplight now kind of being like taken up it's crazy.

Zander Tsadwa (00:30:09):

Which is the closest, uh, closest cross street ?

Henry Bump (00:30:12):

I'm on. Um, I live on Snelling and Marshall, but there's a sort of, wow. Yeah. There's this little like store that's like right up the street. It's this place called On's Thai kitchen. I like always go there and I just go like, right over to University. It's like a, yeah, that's a good one.

Zander Tsadwa (00:30:30):

Yeah. That's a good question, especially, yeah. Midway, I'm sorry to cut you off real quick. Like Midway is a big deal. Yeah. Uh, um, like it was our big street to get to University and then the coolest stuff on

University for me was usually Midway. Sorry am I lagging, it just said my connection was unstable.

Henry Bump (00:30:52):

It was for a second, but it's back though.

Zander Tsadwa (00:30:55):

Okay, cool. We're good. Um, but yeah, man, I mean, it's, it's quickly become a place of like serious commerce and like development. And I, I remember, you know, what it used to be, who used to frequent it. And now we have like the Allianz arena and, you know, new housing. That's not meant to be affordable for the people that are right there. So I'm happy about Minnesota United, but it comes at a cost to like

Henry Bump (00:31:27):

Driving up the home prices and whatnot.

Zander Tsadwa (00:31:30):

Yeah. So I guess Snelling & Marshall. Yes. That's real. That's real close. That's close to my high school. It's close to Central.

Henry Bump (00:31:38):

Okay. I don't really know the name. I don't know them too well.

Zander Tsadwa (00:31:41):

You're good. You're good. You're not from here. It's fine.

Henry Bump (00:31:44):

Yeah, that's crazy. So I guess that's kind of, you know, one of the things that I'm going to now, pivot, to another song of yours, if that's cool with you, but, um, what's this called, so one of the lyrics that kind of,

I remember it stuck with me was you sort of talk about the death of George Floyd and then also Kobe ends up dying too. I think kind of, we can talk about that, but then you pivot towards talking about your dad and his experience. When you say that like the, um, your own father and how, when you were

16 home, he wasn't home because he was out making sure that we had a home. Right. And I think that sort of throughout your music, it's kind of like this theme of sort of like grit and persistence is something that

I think sticks with me. And obviously we talked about that with bones and sort of like what Rice street instilled in you. But I guess also if you wanted to talk about sort of what your dad, and obviously his work ethic which you talked about here had instilled with you and then also sort of with that in your creative process too, and the songs that you've made.

Zander Tsadwa (00:32:46):

Yeah. Okay. So start with the, with the George line, um, that was supposed to be a cheeky acknowledgement of like the, you know, the, uh, the stereotype of like black people that grew up in broken homes. Right. And a lot of that is, you know, the, the heads of households that you wish these delinquent black youth had, are being killed or being incarcerated. There's a reason like the, I think the ratio of like black women to black men that are like out on the street is lopsided for that reason. Black women graduate from college at a higher rate. Like there are more, there's more black women relative to black men than like, I think women to men and other races in terms of ratio for that, for those reasons, you know? So, so yeah, like right after, after I said, like took George's breath now Gianna is so

Gianna is actually George Floyd's daughter's name too.

Zander Tsadwa (00:33:53):

So I know it was going to feel like an allusion to Kobe because, you know, Kobe's daughter R.I.P is also named Gianna, but yeah. So took George's breath now Gianna's dad is dead, but their fathers are never home. Right. Um, so then I talked about my father, not because he was like absent or deadbeat or anything, it's just because like, as an able-bodied man, like he had to be out of the house to make sure we had house well, apartment, even. So he worked often worked like three to 12, three to one, he's a truck driver. He, he was, he was a tanker driver for a long time. So he delivered diesel to other

17 companies for like their fleets of trucks. So when I'd get home from school, he would be like, just getting ready to go to work, like making food, you know, rubbing off the sleep, whatever.

Zander Tsadwa (00:34:54):

Um, and then, yeah, yeah. Like when I would wake up, he might've been like winding down from a night of work. So, and we had time, especially like being a kid, he was like, he, he was present for a lot of things. He was there, uh, weekends were a big deal. So weekly, like grocery shopping, there's a park in

Roseville that we went to to play basketball or there's actually a batting cage too. That's pretty cool. Um, so yeah, I mean, we had a lot of great, like we had time, but also like I was robbed of a lot of time and like I ended up really counting on my mom to be like a person to ask questions about, you know, growing up about emotions, about dating. Like there, there were things that my dad, I kind of hoped like could have been, um, that it couldn't be just because he had to work, you know?

Zander Tsadwa (00:36:01):

So, so yeah. Um, yeah, I think I kind of just recalled all that thinking about George and he, he was, he was taken from Gianna and then somewhere down the line, like down the line, you know, unless, you know, some, if a teacher didn't know who Gianna Floyd was, it'd probably be like, you know, like these black kids, you know, raised in single parent homes. Like, there's no wonder why they can't this, that whatever, but the parent that's not there, you know, was kneeled on and suffocated. So yeah, I just wanted to make that look clear that if fathers aren't being robbed of us one way, it's another, um,

Henry Bump (00:36:52):

It's like a compounding thing that sort of like systemic issues and then compounding to making even

Zander Tsadwa (00:36:58):

Exactly. Exactly. You know, and then I guess you could tie like my dad not being home to wage slaves.

Cause you know, he was like, he had to work like hours, like half a day's worth a day, you know, like I'm a wage slave too, but it's not that bad. Um, but more on my economics later,

Henry Bump (00:37:22):

See the way my bank accounts set up

Henry Bump (00:37:29):

Well, one of the things that I also was curious about was, um, so you've got back in the pandemic two weeks before lockdown, right? Yep. And mistake me if I'm wrong. When did you drop, um, black man in

Minnesota? When did that come out?

Zander Tsadwa (00:37:47):

Hmmm, I wanna say February, like top of February. Um, I can look at that really quickly. Yeah.

Henry Bump (00:37:57):

I'm looking at your Spotify right now. Um,

Zander Tsadwa (00:38:01):

Oh, okay. Kind of later. So February 22. Yeah. I shot the video a month before that. Okay.

Henry Bump (00:38:13):

Yeah. So that was what, a little bit under a year in quarantine then, right?

Zander Tsadwa (00:38:19):

Yeah. Yup. Yup.

Henry Bump (00:38:21):

So I guess like one of the things that I wanted to ask about was specifically, I know for a lot of people through quarantine, um, you just have probably a ton more time on your hands than used to. Right. And sort of with the murder of George Floyd, how did that sort of make you think about maybe some things that you hadn't been thinking about, or I think not things that you hadn't been thinking about, but a lot,

I feel like like the murder of George Floyd was like a rude awakening for a lot of people, that the problems that we kind of had thought, I think it was just much more, um, it was out there a lot more because people weren't doing things. And so the mass media that hadn't really been like covering a lot of things because there wasn't as much going on. It was less, it was way easier in a lot of other scenarios for things to get swept under the broom. Right. Or like under the mat and stuff like that. And I guess sort of with your own music making and obviously a black man in Minnesota where you touch on this, how did that sort of the time that you spent at home sort of turn into, I guess, like maybe not reflection, but sort of your thought process and making this song and also touching on topical things that hadn't been touched on in a lot of other media cases.

Zander Tsadwa (00:39:34):

Yeah, for sure. So I think with the, with like the justice system and policing being inherently racist I was alreadt there, um, and then to add to your summary of why yeah, yeah. Uh, George, George Floyd's death was more impactful than say Trayvon Martin or Mike Brown. Cause like it was that like, we couldn't focus on anything else and it was hyper real. Like we saw it, it wasn't just like we saw it happen.

It was like, oh, that's like unequivocally awful. Like, you know it. So it was, it was a combination of those factors too. Cause we didn't see, we didn't see what happened to Trayvon. Like you heard the story of the guy who killed him and you heard the nine one, one call and you had to fill in the gaps. And you're like, it's very hard to imagine that the 17 year old wanted a problem coming from the store or with Mike

Brown, it's like last street, like he was running out whatever and oh, he went for the gun and it's like, okay, like we've heard that like, this is not cool.

Zander Tsadwa (00:40:50):

And now you're militarizing Ferguson. Well, George was like, oh, like, you know, you're truly a terrible person if you try to like explain that away. So, so yeah, I think as far as race went, it kind of just hardened. My understanding of race in America has made me like it's made it more urgent to, to be talking about it. Um, but also made me, you know, learn more about how my other beliefs aligned. So like housing, like if I was like, okay, if race is a race and racism is endemic and like really foundational to how, America works like, where else do we see it? You know, how, how does it relate to class? Like, can we, how do we get other people on board to see that if you figure out the problem of like America needing to shit on black people in order to be what it is that, you know, how do I get people to the point where it's like, oh, if you actually fight for this, you will help for yourself.

Zander Tsadwa (00:41:58):

You know? So yeah, like that, that all has been, um, like I wouldn't have made wage slave. I don't think I would've made wage slave two years ago, you know, but I really mean that shit, like company time, like the idea that you're even when you go to college and you're college educated and you Excel and you have like a decent paying job, then you never put in a position to own something. And to create like for yourself, like people create these days to be like good at it and to make money myself included. But like, it's never, it's never like, oh, you paint or you scape for you, whatever, because you're a human being like, this is, this is like you living life. You know, everything has to be productive and profitable in order to, to be worthwhile in society. And that hurts, you know, again, for the most part, people of color black folk, um, the disabled, you know, the, the lower class.

Zander Tsadwa (00:43:08):

So yeah, I feel like just sitting at home, seeing on the show was happening, seeing how the pandemic just like ripped curtains open, or off and you got to see how this country worked, bare bones and healthcare was garbage. And we realized people can work from home and, you know, work out and enjoy themselves and still be productive. Um, and even then there's still a stress on being productive, but it's like now we had like some control over our time and our domain and, you know, there was just, we had seen too. I feel like I, I saw too much, I've seen too much during this past year to ever except what I would have put up with prior to the pandemic. So, so yeah, I hope my music continues to like, not accept those things. Like even as much as I love NAS and Jay Z, like, I'm not really trying to hear them talk about being like, like the cryptocurrency out Al Capone

Henry Bump (00:44:24):

Oh Crypto Currency, Scarface yeah yeah.

Zander Tsadwa (00:44:27):

Like that's cool. Like they made it out and they're doing great things for themselves and their people, but I just don't think that should be the model because at the end of the day, like, I don't know, like when you investing in shit like that, it isn't, it isn't productive in the sense that like, you will help people.

Like you're not gonna raise the floor of like American society. You're not going to like make the tools to success more accessible because like you won at that game. It's just not a, it's not a game that we should be wanting to play anymore. Really. It's all I'm trying to say. So yeah. Yeah. Like,

Henry Bump (00:45:17):

So I think that's, I think that's really interesting that you say that, cause there's, there's a line now I can say maybe two in the song where you talk about sort of, uh, I don't remember the exact lyrics, but like a

50 K debt burden from college. It's like hanging over your head and then you also talk about sort of like how should a black man in America try and make money to basically set himself up? Is it like you take this college route where you have all this debt hanging over your head and then also you could say, you talk about like turning to the streets and then there's a video, a visual of you actually like talking into the sidewalk. Right. And then with sort of that Coinbase thing in mind, do you think though, that sort of lyrics like that by Nas that are sort of talking more about, because there's obviously like, like you say, there's obviously this sort of dilemma, trilemma, or just this problem of like, what is the best way for a black man in America to pursue a high income to support himself and his family, when there's all of these barriers up against him.

Henry Bump (00:46:14):

And do you think sort of lyrics like these by Nas that are talking about and sort of making, investing, or sort of saving your money and putting it away more readily spoken about, do you think that's a positive or, I mean, you obviously kind of don't want people to play that game in the first place, I guess, is what you're pointing out, but sort of where's your, head at on that.

Zander Tsadwa (00:46:33):

So I'll start with my lyrics and I might have to actually. So I'm cooking right now. I got like these baked potatoes going. I got to like.

Henry Bump (00:46:43):

Let the baked potatoes rock

Zander Tsadwa (00:46:43):

. I got to look at the timer, but uh, started with my lyrics. I want to say. Um, yeah, it's like in order to make yourself more valuable, you got to go in the hole like real quick, you know, your way to making --- audio lags--- can you hear me? Oh, okay. Let me see. Where'd I leave off

Henry Bump (00:47:18):

Put yourself in the hole.

Zander Tsadwa (00:47:23):

Yeah. It's like to make yourself valuable. You have to either sacrifice like a lot of time or a lot of money.

And then even then like, I'm more easily hireable because my bachelor's degree. This light is serious. I like this. I'm more hireable and I command a higher wage or salary, but my like my net worth is like, I still, when you, when you add it all up, I owe people shit, you know? And I take pride in my music cause I own that. I take pride in across the culture because that is also mine. Um, so there are like routes out of it. But even then, you know, it's like when you talk about investing or, uh, just, just playing the, the great capitalist game of Thrones, it's not really, I don't have an issue with like the idea of like, not the idea of saving or the ideas of investing it's what are you investing in?

Zander Tsadwa (00:48:32):

And like, are these solutions or these solutions to coping with or dealing with the reality we're in or are we trying to actively change it? And I think if you grew up in, you know, the Reagan era, you had very little choice, but to play that game. So like that, that's the idea of like, are you selling crack or smoking it? You know? Um, or yeah, I mean, if you're from New York and you lived through that, like once by the time you're an adult, you're like, okay, like I just have to be good at this, at this game. So with Jay is like acquiring and flipping. Like even with Tidal, like as much as he cares about artists, Tidal for him was just

24 a big flip. Like he got it on the cheap, he sold a significant chunk of it for many times more than it was worth.

Zander Tsadwa (00:49:41):

And then he's recently sold another chunk of it. You know, it wasn't, that was the priority. Like having an asset that was going to gain value more than it was about like raising the floor of like artists getting a living wage or artists being able to live off what they do. You know? So like, I don't, I don't know. I just feel like if we're going to listen to our godfathers and our, uh, what's the word, I guess our old heads it's like,

Henry Bump (00:50:23):

The staples in the game

Zander Tsadwa (00:50:23):

Yeah. Are you going to offer like keys and like secrets and like the ways to make it up there? Or are we trying to like crack this open for more people to just, you know, to live a decent life? You know, like there aren't, there isn't much of a middle-class in America, but also especially among creatives, it's like you're starving or like you're struggling or you are in the algorithm just thriving

Henry Bump (00:50:54):

And do you think the pandemic has sort of driven that divide even more or no?

Zander Tsadwa (00:51:00):

It has made it more apparent, like the number of artists that depend on live shows because they don't own their masters and their streaming revenue gets divvied up and they have to recoup the initial investment made into them by the label. Um, and then with indie artists, it's like, you make a lot of great

25 content. You've been at it for years. You have a marketing infrastructure, you are starting to get into people's like discover weeklies and whatever. But again, streaming doesn't pay like that. Um, not to mention like the market share of indie artists compared to like major label artists is still, still not everything. You know, then you factor in the fact that like attention and what the machine will spit out at people is still going to be the people that have a shit ton, more money put into them by the machine.

And that's, I mean, I get that and I'm not mad at those artists at all.

Zander Tsadwa (00:52:12):

It's just like, that's what it is. So yeah. It's like, we still, still really, as a culture, we don't care about the artist discovery. Um, we don't care to take the lion's share of resources that we give to our several favorite, big label artists and invest in the idea that anyone with a perspective and skill can make something that I would want to consume, you know? Um, yeah, man, I mean it, yeah. So the issue is in like what they're talking about. It's, it's more about like, yeah, it's more about, are they, are they trying to cope with, or like win in this reality or make a new one? So, so yeah, I guess when you're like 15 and you discover reasonable doubt, like, wow, that's incredible. Like I want to win like in that way. And then when you're 25, 26 and you're working a job and you realize the only way someone gets that much is if someone in your position gets next to nothing, you're like, I don't wanna play this game any more. And I don't, I don't care as much about your billionaire reps. It's not cool. It's not cool anymore.

Henry Bump (00:53:58):

Do you know BFB the Pac-Man at all?

Zander Tsadwa (00:54:00):

Yeah. Yeah. I actually have a reference to him in my, in my, the single is coming out soon. Yeah.

Henry Bump (00:54:06):

Okay. So, so he's gotten like a lot of sort of mainstream and media attention for the fact that, you know, he's a mailman, right. And he takes pride in the fact that he's a mailman in sort of the autonomy and like independence that it gives him financially. And just with like his overall day to day. Right. He's very vocal about it. And it's really funny with it too. Do you think like him, maybe not just him getting into the limelight about that, but sort of the spotlight actually with him, the spotlight being put on him in turn, more people are going to accept it because he's got a lot, he's got a lot of plays, right. And a lot, a lot of like YouTube and stuff. I think, you know what I'm poking at, right? Like, is this going to be more acceptable?

Zander Tsadwa (00:54:50):

You brought up the, the correct artist and that's the thing now, like you're, you're taking what I've laid out to a natural and great place, because that is an example of that. It's like, he, first of all, he, he has created like that narrative and value around it without, you know, a machine. So the idea that this person who could very easily be delivering your mail, you know, makes music, invests in the people, close to him, he talks about how he divvies up like his music revenue and how he just goes back into like paying people and like cultivate an audience like that. That is a regular person,

Henry Bump (00:55:42):

Yeah.

Zander Tsadwa (00:55:44):

And yeah, because there are people that, you know, are regular that don't have that shit that come out, you know, presenting themselves as made or, or even if, you know, like, okay, like this is like an aspirational rap or like this person aspires to be a certain thing. There's never a real acknowledgement or acceptance of like, you know, I live paycheck to paycheck. Yeah. I live on, on this avenue. This is my

27 day job. This is how I get it. You know, that there's most artists see their surroundings and they're like, this is just a step to being a fucking millionaire. Yeah. Right. With Packman. He's like, I am a mailman. I am the guy that, you know, has the baby moms, but treats them well and take a lot of pride in just making it happen for myself, given my surroundings. So like, yes. Yeah. If people can find value in and be entertained by that, like I think it bodes well for economically speaking commoners that are creative and want to, you know, share their little piece of perspective with people. Yeah. Yes. BFB the fucking

Packman bro. He, yes. He's hard. I love him. I actually am glad you brought them up.

Henry Bump (00:57:28):

Ever watch the, uh, like the Redman MTV cribs where it's just his little Staten island, two bedroom house.

Zander Tsadwa (00:57:36):

No, I haven't.

Henry Bump (00:57:38):

He lives in this. So he did it. I think it was like a while back whenever, at least not long ago once, but yeah, it was him on MTV cribs and oh God,

Zander Tsadwa (00:57:48):

It must've been a while back if it was MTV Cribs

Henry Bump (00:57:49):

Yeah. Um, he was on like the, like I think like hot 97 or something like that. And was just talking about the fact that like he's still in the same house. Right. And that like, he doesn't need all of like the glory and everything. So I think it's kind of maybe who knows. I think that the people like the BFB the Packman are

28 kind of paving the way for it. Hopefully it will continue to be something that's much more mainstream, but I think it also kind of fits with his like outlandish. Cause you know, he's also very vocal about having like STDs and stuff too. Really, all the things people don't rap about. I mean,

Zander Tsadwa (00:58:24):

Yeah. And not everyone has to be that candid, but like again, like he's not, you know, he's not trying to flatter himself to the point where, you know, in that, like, please sign me. Like I'm the total package.

He's kind of like, this is exactly what the I am. And like, the more I lean into it, the more it's like, oh, like, like I can only get this from you. Like that's what makes them valuable. You know? So

Henry Bump (00:58:56):

I think that's kind of a good point in saying, being valuable there's one point where you talk about in the, um, kind to tie back to the black man in Minnesota song you talking about in Minnesota, people being like nice because it's their fake job to, it's their job to be like fake nice, but not being valued. I don't know. This kind of sparked my question the word value itself, but I guess sort of like, I think wrap up on this song specifically, would you want to talk about that or anything? Yeah. Anything else you would want to say about the black man in Minnesota song as well.

Zander Tsadwa (00:59:30):

Oh, I said, um,

Henry Bump (00:59:33):

We can pull up the lyrics.

Zander Tsadwa (00:59:36):

Yeah. Oh are the lyrics out. Like you can see them?

Henry Bump (00:59:39):

Oh, no I have it on my own

Zander Tsadwa (00:59:43):

Okay. Yeah. The, the big hello, the lack of goodbyes. No nice way to say you're not worth it.

Henry Bump (00:59:50):

Yeah, exactly.

Zander Tsadwa (00:59:53):

Yeah. No, that's what I was saying. Not worth it. Like, Nope. No one is going to befriend you. If you either don't have a mutual connection or you're not doing anything for a person and on one hand, that's just life, again, it's a very American thing. I think it's a, it's very capitalist. Like, you know, I want to waste my time on our relationship that doesn't give me anything material. Right. Or it's like, if you're not already good, like if you're not already in the circle or you're just not never going to be even more so here, because like, I don't know how deep I want to get here.

Henry Bump (01:00:38):

So you say the lone star, it's like quite lonely. Was that a reference to Minnesota

Zander Tsadwa (01:00:46):

The lone star shines, shines bright cause it's alone. Um, our north star. North star. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of

Minnesota kind of like me, me the north star. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just do north. Right. Due North.

Um, even if we're talking about like slavery and like how, uh, the underground railroad, it was just like follow the North Star, you know, probably like a lonely journey. Like even when you're black and you're quote unquote free from the racist south, like now, like you still have to go to a white business to get a

30 job, probably not going to get a job with the same ease as white people. Actually. That's definitely a fact, um, you're going to live in the ghetto. So like you'll be crammed in Boston. You're going to be crammed and poor in Baltimore. St. Louis Detroit. Not that much fucking better. Like, you know, you're still, when

Kanye said like, Harriet Tubman freed slaves.

Zander Tsadwa (01:01:48):

Just for them to be slaves elsewhere? Like paraphrasing, it was harsh because it like undermined what

Harriet Tubman did, but it was not wrong in the sense that these people who had nothing and had their life like their livelihoods and their, their lives depend on white people were walking into the exact same thing in Northern cities that were better because they weren't in chains or being whipped. You could still, you could have been, you could have been kidnapped back into slavery from the north and like cops would have assisted that would have assisted vigilantes in doing that to you. So, so yeah, that's like a historical context for that line. Um, and then even with the idea like Minnesota, nice. So like the lack of goodbyes, big hellos, um, yeah, I mean simply put Minnesota nice is just like is the unwillingness to acknowledge like the foundation of racism that this country stands on. And there's like the belief in a moral, like higher ground, because you were, you are nicer kind to people in ways that don't fundamentally matter. You know? So that's my big issue as, uh, like an native Minnesotan, you know, like white Minnesotans don't fundamentally care to improve the lives of others. Like they don't fundamentally care to change things. Um, no matter how much they might stick up for like a person that receives explicit racist abuse, you know? Um, yeah. So that's my take on that.

Henry Bump (01:03:46):

Do you think that problem has gotten worse through the pandemic and people being able to just like stay at home and turn a blind eye to things. Or do you think it's made people think more about some of these issues? That for a lot of times, people may not really acknowledge?

Zander Tsadwa (01:04:01):

Um, I think, like I said earlier, I think it's being, it's just becoming more apparent now, like even with, uh, even with, with like police reform or, uh, I don't know, minimum wage, like it's, it's kinda hard to see.

Well then wait, I mean, yeah. Even so police reform racism, like you'll see people say the right things, but then if you ask about like, okay, like let's divert money from this racist institution or let's stop giving them military grade weapons, uh, through the, I forgot what the program is called, there is literally a program where the military is like, Hey, we have excess weapons. Like, do you want some cops of

America? And they're like, yeah, there's this, a federal program for that, like, yeah. Yeah. I had to, I looked it up because it wasn't the, it was in the, the, the justice and policing act, the George Floyd act. I want to read about it. I'm like, you know, like how, how progressive is it? Right. And one of the things it mentioned as a highlight was like, limiting, not ending, but limiting the number of military grade weapons that police like, even like college campus police, like apparently on the ASU campus, they have like the most, they have the most, um, military rifles and they have like 70 assault rifles across like college cops at ASU, that's fucking nuts.

Zander Tsadwa (01:05:48):

Yeah. So yeah, the bill was like, you know, let's limit, we're going to limit the amount of military grade weapons that cops get not gonna end it. So yeah, like even getting behind that, it's like, what are we actually doing? Like what, what is, what is progressive here? Like we're not, it's a step forward in the sense that I don't know we're willing to look at it and scale it back, but the infrastructure to do it again, once the heat, you know, cools. Like once it cools off, it's just, it's right there. It's all there. Like we're not actually gonna change. So, so yeah. Um, it was a bit scattered. I know it was like loosely related, but that, that's what the pandemic has done for me. I've been pushed a little more left. Sorry about the rattling, my shorty got back and my dogs happy, but, um, yeah. So just give me a sec, a lot happening.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):

Okay.

Zander Tsadwa (01:07:09):

Um, yeah. [ Freezes]. Ah, yeah. Okay. Oh, what'd you last hear?

Henry Bump (01:07:30):

You say yeah. When you sat down.

Zander Tsadwa (01:07:33):

Oh yeah. I think the pandemic has confirmed for me what I believed about like the white, liberal stances collectively on justice, on racism. Like, you know, it, it simply looks better.

Henry Bump (01:07:52):

I remember reading, I remember over quarantine reading the autobiography of Malcolm X and one of the last lines in it being, not one of the last lines. I think it was on like the third to last page or something, but him sort of talking about in his time, white southerners who were blatantly obvious about their racism were better for the cause. Like, like advancing the quality of life for black people because they weren't like hiding it behind. Like you said, the Minnesota nice type of thing.

Zander Tsadwa (01:08:19):

I fully believe that. I think, I am not saying that this is like wildly progressive or radical, but I mean, I mean, I mean this, that mayor Fry or Joe Biden, wouldn't be more progressive in their anti-racism. If they admitted they were racist than what they're doing right now. I genuinely believe that because if you're talking about, so like the justice and policing act, it's like, oh, like we're going to ban all like, uh,

33 holds to the neck because we saw a person die that way. It's like, okay. I mean, well then watch out for when someone gets pistol-whipped.

New Speaker (01:09:12):

Or punched in the face fifteen times.

Zander Tsadwa (01:09:14):

You know, it's, it's so reactive and it's, it's much more about cleaning it up. You know, like if Jacob Frey was like, you know what, I, as much as I don't want to be racist, like, I don't want to take a single cent away from our police. And ultimately, like, black people make me uncomfortable that wouldn't go, like we would be so like, so much further. At least we just get past, you know, the bullshit about the comments to me, that would be more progressive than the posturing of like, I care about Minnesota and we have deployed our wonderful national guard to keep us all safe. No thanks.

Zander Tsadwa (01:10:01):

It's not cool? It's not cool? Like just, yeah, just stop.

Henry Bump (01:10:12):

Um, honestly I think that's like somewhat of a good place to end, you know, I think that was a good discussion. And, um, before you go, do you want to, obviously we talked about it a little bit beforehand, but obviously big plans for the summer coming up. And if you just wanted to give people a little bit of a fore warning or just tell them what to expect. I think that'd be great.

Zander Tsadwa (01:10:33):

Sure, man. Um, I, every once in awhile, contrary to the content in this interview I have fun with the things I make. So I think, uh, even though I actually, I do have a song about homelessness on the EP, but

34 it's still a summery feel. Um, the single Shorty's RAV4 that's coming out Memorial day. Um, it is self- explanatory coming up without a car and being with a wonderful, wonderful woman who had a car among other things. Um, and yeah, no drip in the desert, this summer. I don't have a date yet, but this summer not like late either like at the latest it's going to be July. So

Henry Bump (01:11:27):

Enough time for people to rock rock through it throughout the whole summer,

Zander Tsadwa (01:11:30):

Yes, absolutely. That'd be, they'll be rocking. So yeah, that's what's happening for me this summer, um, across the culture podcast coming out later this summer in the fall. Uh, it depends on how the music's doing honestly, but yeah, that's, uh, that's what I'm looking at for the, in the foreseeable future. Nice,

Henry Bump (01:11:55):

Sweet. Well, um, I think to wrap it up, I gotta just say the date and time one more time for the procedures, but it's May third 2021 and it's now, uh, six 28. And, um, Zander, once again, thank you for joining me for today's interview. And, um, yeah, it was really great to hear what you had to say.

Zander Tsadwa (01:12:13):

Thanks for having me on man. On the Zoom.

Henry Bump (01:12:15):

Anytime