AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNAL FRIDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2014 DAY THREE (TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE) - - - - - CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID JONES MR JOHN NIXON MR WAYNE HENWOOD COUNSEL ASSISTING: MR JUSTIN HOOPER - - - - - MR J. GLEESON QC with MS R. ENBOM appeared on behalf of AFL. MR M. HOLMES QC with MR P. KNOWLES appeared on behalf of the CEO of ASADA. MR D. GRACE QC with MR B. IHLE appeared on behalf of 32 players. MR N. CLELLAND QC with MR S. NORTON appeared on behalf of Mr and Mr - - - - - 1 CHAIRMAN: Good morning. We are ready to proceed. Could 2 I just indicate that Mr Abrahams asked Mr Hooper whether 3 he could have a copy of the transcript in relation to the 4 time that he was here for the purposes of his application. 5 My initial reaction was to think, "Oh, that's probably all 6 right." But, having gone through it, I have sort of 7 thought differently about that in terms of not so 8 much - I'm not in any way reflecting anything on 9 Mr Abrahams, but I'm just a bit concerned about where the 10 transcript gets to beyond there, bearing in mind what we 11 continue to read in the press. So what I thought was, if 12 there was agreement from the Bar table, that perhaps we 13 could give him a transcript of the ruling and I think 14 that's quite - there's nothing in that. 15 MR GRACE: We agree. 16 MR HOLMES: We agree also. 17 CHAIRMAN: So we will let him have the transcript of the 18 ruling, but otherwise we won't make it available. I think 19 that's the prudent course, if everyone agrees. 20 MR CLELLAND: Yes. 21 CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes. 22 MR HOLMES: Thank you. Yesterday I had taken the Tribunal 23 through the text messages on 8 January where Charter and 24 Alavi were talking about the Hexarelin being mixed up by 25 the end of Monday, and then the text messages on 9 26 January - - - 27 CHAIRMAN: I think we had got to a document which is AS-3, 197, 28 which you indicated would be of some significance. 29 MR HOLMES: Yes, that's right. The text messages reflect the 30 preparation, the compounding of the Hexarelin by Alavi on 31 the 8th and the 9th and then the dispensing of it on the .AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 168 MR HOLMES 19/12/14 1 10th, which is 197, and that's the reference to - - - 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Shall we get that again? 3 MR HOLMES: Yes. AS-3, 197. I had taken the Tribunal to the 4 entry on 10 January on the left-hand side, 14 Hexarelin 5 for $4,200. 6 CHAIRMAN: Yes. That's where we were yesterday. 7 MR HOLMES: Yes. The reference to "Customer MRC ICB" and then 8 that changes on 13 January to "Customer Steve Dank". 9 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 10 MR HOLMES: Then that changes on 18 January to "Como 11 Compounding Pharmacy". There is some evidence about what 12 that means and it's found in the evidence of Vania 13 Giordani. It's in AS-5, volume 3. 14 CHAIRMAN: Can you give us a tab? 15 MR HOLMES: It is tab 35, the last tab in the folder. 16 CHAIRMAN: Interview with Vania Giordani on 14 February 2014. 17 MR HOLMES: Yes. She has a bit of an accent. She is being 18 interviewed by Aaron Walker. At page 2 of the transcript 19 you will see her name and details. Then on page 3 of the 20 transcript you will see that she's asked if she needs 21 representation, and she says she hopes not. Nima Alavi 22 was her representative, that's her employer. So he was 23 present for her whilst she was being interviewed. 24 CHAIRMAN: So she was employed by him. 25 MR HOLMES: Employed by him. He was there. This is in 26 February this year. If we go forward to page 36, the 27 submission I'll be putting is that the reference there to 28 the name of the customer appears to be a reference to the 29 price that is being charged. It's not a reference to the 30 person to whom it's delivered. 31 So, at the top of page 36 they are asking about .AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 169 MR HOLMES 19/12/14 1 invoices. At first at line 5 she says, "I think it was 2 the date it was dispensed. Dispensed date? Yes. Okay. 3 You see next to the cream it has MRC. MRC, what does that 4 mean? That's probably a special price for them." 5 This entry is not clear, and it's one of the 6 matters we were going to ask Mr Alavi about if we had the 7 opportunity to have a further interview. On the foot of 8 page 37 at line 40, just after where she said, "The reason 9 is we probably didn't resell that again to MRC. Yes, 10 never." Then line 40, "So all of them would have looked 11 like the scalp lotion, and then once we started demanding 12 prescriptions, then I went through and edited - well, 13 either I did it or - I think I did most of them. I edited 14 them and put MRC next to them with a special price for 15 their patients." Giordani, "Yes." 16 Then over at page 38 - - - 17 CHAIRMAN: This is Mr Alavi talking. 18 MR HOLMES: Well, he seems to chime in. 19 CHAIRMAN: So he's sort of come in and given comments whilst 20 she was being interviewed which has been transcribed. 21 MR HOLMES: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN: Okay. 23 MR HOLMES: Over on page 38, line 20, "So the accuracy of these 24 invoices remains in the fact that on that date those 25 substances or those quantities were supplied to ICB? Yes. 26 The references to MRC relate to the price discount? Yes. 27 Then you edited it in when you were going through and 28 doing a review of the process." I think that's the only 29 reference until the very last page. 30 MR GRACE: Where were you reading from just then, what line? 31 CHAIRMAN: 20 to 30. .AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 170 MR HOLMES 19/12/14 1 MR HOLMES: 20 to 30, yes. 2 CHAIRMAN: On page 38. 3 MR HOLMES: The evidence is not terribly clear, but as I say 4 that's all we wish to put in relation to this. 5 CHAIRMAN: Did you want to draw our attention to anything on 6 the last page? 7 MR HOLMES: The last page, it's just as Delphic. The first 10 8 lines. 9 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 5, "So the MRC addition was you just going 10 away and squaring away the discount price." 11 MR HOLMES: Yes. So it's not as clear as we might like. 12 Coming back to the beginning of January, I'm now going to 13 11 and 12 January 2012. After the Hexarelin order had 14 been compounded and apparently collected by Mr Dank, there 15 were more text messages exchanged about what peptides 16 Mr Dank needs next. If I go to AS-4 at page 34. 17 CHAIRMAN: This is on the text messages. 18 MR HOLMES: Text messages, page 34. 19 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 20 MR HOLMES: Page 34, line 53. So it's the next day, 21 11 January. Line 53, Mr Charter asked Mr Dank, "What 22 peptide do you need next?" So that question is further 23 evidence that there had been a peptide supplied before 24 that. Then at line 54 he's asked quantities. Then Dank 25 replies to Mr Charter, "Thymosin Beta-4 then CJC." 26 Now, if we just hold that open and go to page 12. 27 Mr Charter, having been told that by Mr Dank, at page 12, 28 line 220 - - - 29 CHAIRMAN: Page 12 of? 30 MR HOLMES: Of the same volume. So Charter asked Dank, "Which 31 one do you need next?" Dank says, "Thymosin Beta-4." .AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 171 MR HOLMES 19/12/14 1 Then Charter passes the message on to Nima Alavi, line 2 220, "Thymosin Beta-4. Then CJC-1295. Steve wants next." 3 Then we go back to page 34 and it is now the next day. At 4 line 56, on the 12th Dank texts Charter, "Hi, mate. 5 Thymosin 20 by 5 ml vials." Mr Charter having got those 6 instructions from Mr Dank, we go back to page 12 and at 7 line 224, Mr Charter on the 12th passes that on to 8 Mr Alavi by saying, "Hi, mate. Thymosin 20 by 5 ml vials. 9 Steve's request." 10 CHAIRMAN: Which he does on the 12th. 11 MR HOLMES: Yes. That's the instructions for the next peptide 12 after the Hexarelin. 13 Can I go then to AS-3, bearing in mind it's now 14 12 January and at page 227 the instructions are to make up 15 Thymosin Beta-4, as we have just discussed in those text 16 messages. At page 227 on 12 January, Thursday, Shane 17 Charter sends a text message to Nima Personal @alavigroup 18 and steve.dank@gmail and the message is, "Steve, just 19 check you agree with the below so we can make it up 20 accordingly ..." I'm reading from page 227.