AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNAL THURSDAY, 18 DECEMBER 2014 DAY TWO (TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE) - - - - -

CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID JONES MR JOHN NIXON MR WAYNE HENWOOD

COUNSEL ASSISTING: MR JUSTIN HOOPER

- - - - -

MR J. GLEESON QC with MS R. ENBOM appeared on behalf of AFL. MR M. HOLMES QC with MR P. KNOWLES appeared on behalf of the CEO of ASADA. MR D. GRACE QC with MR B. IHLE appeared on behalf of 32 players. MR S. NORTON on behalf of Mr and Mr

- - - - - 1 CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone. Mr Holmes and Mr Knowles, 2 I would just like to say, and I think I speak for everyone 3 here, that we are just so shocked and saddened by the 4 tragic death of your colleague Katrina Dawson. We can 5 understand how difficult it is for members of the New 6 South Wales Bar in these awful circumstances, and of 7 course it's not only a situation where she tragically lost 8 her life but two other members of the Bar were hostages as 9 well. So we express our condolences and support to you at 10 this very difficult time. I suggest that before we start 11 we have a moment's silence as a mark of respect for those 12 who lost their lives. 13 MR HOLMES: Mr Jones, can I thank you. The connections and the 14 thoughts have been overwhelming us over the last few days, 15 and we appreciate that. 16 CHAIRMAN: Yes. It's very difficult, and you and Mr Knowles 17 have a job to do, and you'll do it, but no-one wants to 18 have to do it in circumstances like this and it's probably 19 particularly difficult for you because I understand she 20 was a member of the commercial bar or practised in that 21 area. So you probably had a lot of contact with her. 22 MR HOLMES: My son - there were family connections, not 23 professional connections, which makes it even more - have 24 a greater impact. 25 CHAIRMAN: Yes, and of course her brother is a senior member of 26 the New South Wales Bar. 27 MR HOLMES: Yes, and we both have professional and personal 28 connections. 29 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Well, we understand. If at any time you feel 30 you need a break, you just let us know. We have a 31 situation where - first of all, perhaps if we deal with

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 66 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 the request of Mr Michael Abrahams to have leave to be 2 present on behalf of the Essendon Football Club. Is he 3 here at the moment? He may be outside. Can we have him 4 come in; thanks. 5 Mr Abrahams, we have your email. Before I ask 6 counsel for the other parties to address the Tribunal on 7 any matters they wish to raise, can I just clarify your 8 request to be present on behalf of the club. 9 MR ABRAHAMS: Certainly. 10 CHAIRMAN: Can you assist us as to, if you were granted leave, 11 what role you propose to take in the proceedings. You are 12 putting that the club has an interest in the outcome, and 13 there are a couple of things mentioned. One is the team 14 provision in the Code. Obviously if the players were 15 suspended, those that were still players with Essendon, 16 that would have a pretty substantial effect on the ability 17 of the football club to field a team. 18 I suppose another area is that it may be that as 19 part of our decision we may have to make findings that 20 reflect upon the Essendon Football Club in terms of the 21 way it conducted itself in relation to these matters. But 22 can you assist us as to how you would see your role if you 23 were present on behalf of the club? 24 MR ABRAHAMS: Certainly. My primary role would be - I would be 25 acting as a representative of the club, as a legal 26 representative. As a practical matter, I would expect it 27 would be primarily a monitoring role so the club may be 28 aware of what's taking place in the proceedings and make a 29 decision, if any matters are likely to arise, on which it 30 may want to make a submission, and we would want to have 31 the ability to request that opportunity to make a

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 67 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 submission if such an issue arises. 2 As a practical matter, I don't envisage us having 3 a great deal to say or to extend the proceedings or 4 anything like that, but we don't know what will take 5 place, and as a matter of fairness our request is that we 6 be permitted to be present and be aware of what's going 7 on, and I can take those instructions back to the board 8 and chief executive officer of the club and be an active 9 participant insofar as, if there are any matters that 10 arise that we feel we have a need to make a submission on, 11 we can request the opportunity to do that. 12 CHAIRMAN: That's helpful. Thank you. This is a private 13 hearing, which you accept. 14 MR ABRAHAMS: Yes. 15 CHAIRMAN: We have had discussions on Monday with the parties 16 in relation to the question of confidentiality and trying 17 to ensure that the proceedings remain private. 18 MR ABRAHAMS: Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN: Each counsel on behalf of the legal practitioners 20 involved gave an undertaking to the Tribunal that the 21 information that's both evidence and documents that is put 22 before the Tribunal will only be used for the purposes of 23 the proceedings and, to the extent that information has to 24 be revealed to other people for the purposes of the 25 conduct of the proceedings, that best endeavours will be 26 used to ensure that that information is protected, that is 27 that it remains confidential. Would you be prepared to 28 give that undertaking if you were permitted to be present? 29 MR ABRAHAMS: I would certainly be prepared to give the 30 undertaking with regard to confidentiality. With regard 31 to an undertaking in terms of the use of documents,

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 68 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 I would have to give some consideration to that because, 2 as you would be aware, there are a number of legal issues 3 in which the club is involved. There is a lot of 4 information out there that the club already has and 5 I wouldn't want to - - - 6 CHAIRMAN: Clearly there's a lot of material here that has come 7 from the records of the Essendon Football Club. Clearly 8 the club, for example, is well aware of sensitive 9 information relating to the players - - - 10 MR ABRAHAMS: Yes. 11 CHAIRMAN: That we wish to protect. So the club is aware of 12 that, and I'm sure the club is aware of the importance of 13 ensuring the confidentiality of that sensitive material in 14 terms of the way in which it acts. 15 MR ABRAHAMS: Absolutely. 16 CHAIRMAN: Any undertaking, as I see it, can't relate to 17 documents that are already in possession which you may 18 need to use for other purposes. What we are talking about 19 is information that is gained through the proceedings 20 which is information that you don't otherwise have. 21 MR ABRAHAMS: In principle I don't see any difficulties with 22 that. I would like to document that and give that some 23 consideration. But in principle I don't have any 24 objection. 25 CHAIRMAN: All right. I think I need now to ask the parties as 26 to - essentially your interests and the interests of the 27 players coincide, don't they? 28 MR ABRAHAMS: I would suspect so. 29 CHAIRMAN: In the sense that you both want a situation where 30 there is no violation. 31 MR ABRAHAMS: Absolutely.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 69 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 CHAIRMAN: Correct? 2 MR ABRAHAMS: Correct. 3 CHAIRMAN: Mr Gleeson, what would you like to say about the 4 application of Mr Abrahams? 5 MR GLEESON: Mr Chairman, the AFL has no objection to a 6 representative of the Essendon Football Club being present 7 to observe and, if necessary, to make a contribution to 8 the proceedings. 9 CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes? 10 MR HOLMES: The CEO objects to the application. Do you want to 11 hear the objection or do you want to go through the 12 parties to see the position? 13 CHAIRMAN: No, please proceed with your objection. 14 MR HOLMES: All right. The parties to an infraction notice, as 15 is clear in clause 13 of the AFL Code, are the AFL and the 16 person who is alleged to have committed the infraction. 17 The question of the club is in a different 18 position. The club is dealt with in clause 20(2) of the 19 Code, and the Code contemplates a different stage and a 20 different forum for the club to have the opportunity to 21 present its case in respect of the way it will be 22 consequentially involved following an adverse finding of 23 an infraction. 24 So if you go to clause 20(2) the matter - where 25 one or more players from a club has been notified the club 26 shall be subject to target testing. The second sentence, 27 "if more than one player in a club is found to have 28 committed an anti-doping rule violation during the season, 29 the club may be subject to sanctions to be determined in 30 their absolute discretion by the commission." So that's 31 when the club has the right and the opportunity to present

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 70 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 its case. 2 There is reference or has been reference to 42 of 3 the AFL Rules - - - 4 CHAIRMAN: Just before we leave 20(2), that's a decision by the 5 AFL Commission, isn't it? 6 MR HOLMES: Yes. 7 CHAIRMAN: Not by us. 8 MR HOLMES: Not by you. 9 CHAIRMAN: So that that penalty, obviously it flows on from 10 this Tribunal determining certain sanctions, but then it's 11 a matter for the commission as to whether it determines a 12 penalty against the club. 13 MR HOLMES: Yes, a different stage, a different forum, 14 different considerations. 15 CHAIRMAN: Of course, if the commission was contemplating the 16 imposition of such a penalty, the club would have to have 17 the opportunity to be heard - - - 18 MR HOLMES: Certainly. 19 CHAIRMAN: In relation to that. So that's the operation of 20 20(2). It's not something that we administer. 21 MR HOLMES: It's not something you administer, and the parties 22 to the proceedings before you are different to the parties 23 before the commission. So it's a different forum, a 24 different commission. 25 You then go to 42.4 of the rules governing this 26 Tribunal, and bear in mind these are subject to the 27 provisions of the Code, and in 42.4, "the Disciplinary 28 Tribunal" - 42.4(a)(i) - "shall provide any persons whose 29 interests will be directly" - I emphasise the word 30 "directly". The players have a direct interest because 31 they are the ones who are alleged to have committed the

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 71 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 anti-doping rule violation. So that is a direct interest. 2 There may be a consequential interest to other 3 persons. So they may have signed up with new clubs. They 4 may have an indirect interest. Their previous club, 5 Essendon, might have an indirect interest because it goes 6 to the commission later. So they do not have a right 7 under section 42.4 because they are not a direct party, 8 and that's why I started with the infraction notice. 9 We have had some correspondence about their 10 standing before the proceedings before Justice Middleton. 11 That's totally irrelevant. They talk about the players 12 are only bound because they belong to a team. They are 13 bound because they sign up to the Code as individuals. 14 So, again, that's not relevant. 15 There was reference to some provision of the WADA 16 Code in relation to confidentiality, but to allow Essendon 17 to come in these proceedings is to allow an outsider in. 18 So the privacy is broken. They don't have the reciprocal 19 interests that the parties do and the obligations of these 20 parties to address this Tribunal and to receive comments 21 from the Tribunal and to be free to make their comments 22 back. 23 Nextly, Mr Abrahams talks about getting 24 instructions. Obviously the CEO and more particularly the 25 directors owe fiduciary obligations to their club. We 26 have recently been made aware of some public statements 27 that the Essendon chairman has made at the AGM. The 28 Essendon chairman has fiduciary obligations as a director. 29 If I quote, he is saying, "Our legal team" - can I hand 30 these up to the Tribunal and to the other parties. 31 Mr Little is quoted in about the fourth paragraph as

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 72 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 saying, "A circumstantial case is a lot harder for them to 2 prove," Little said when asked if any of the players had 3 received a positive drug test, to which he said "no". 4 Then there's this quote: "Our legal team is working 5 tirelessly to undermine, disprove the circumstantial 6 evidence. As ASADA puts it up, we check it out." 7 We have been concerned about the making available 8 of information to persons whose interests are not directly 9 affected. This Tribunal will at the end issue a decision 10 in an appropriate form. Then whatever happens before the 11 commission is not a matter for this Tribunal. Where the 12 chairman has a fiduciary obligation in his mind to 13 undermine and disprove our case, whilst we accept 14 Mr Abrahams's statements, subject to instructions, they 15 are the instructions that we are concerned, and we don't 16 believe it would be effective to have the assurances that 17 the parties have given because they have direct 18 involvement in these proceedings and a direct interest. 19 CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Grace? 20 MR GRACE: Sir, we are in a difficult position. 21 CHAIRMAN: I thought you might say that. 22 MR GRACE: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN: I would expect that in representing the players you 24 have to get some assistance from the club. 25 MR GRACE: Yes, certainly. 26 CHAIRMAN: That's as night follows day. 27 MR GRACE: Yes. However, it's complicated by the fact 28 that - I'm not sure of the exact number, it's somewhere 29 around the number of 18 of the 34 are currently with the 30 club. The remaining number, which could be 16, someone 31 will tell me the correct number but it's around about

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 73 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 that, are no longer with the club. Two of those persons 2 are represented by Mr Norton today. Some have retired. 3 Some are in various different states of Australia or 4 overseas. Some are playing in different competitions. 5 Some are not. So there are different interests and 6 concerns which are not universal or common amongst our 7 clients, the 32 players. 8 Some of our clients would no doubt support the 9 presence of Mr Abrahams or a representative of the club. 10 Some would not. We believe that the principal concern of 11 all of our clients is confidentiality, not only as to 12 their identities and as to anything that would result in 13 their identification but also in relation to medical 14 details in relation to personal health issues which will 15 be revealed in the course of the tender of the various 16 interviews of the players which occurred last year. 17 CHAIRMAN: Were there representatives of the club present at 18 the interviews? 19 MR GRACE: No. Those who were present were either myself or 20 members of the AFL Players Association or both. 21 CHAIRMAN: All right. 22 MR GRACE: So we believe that the situation can be - - - 23 CHAIRMAN: Well, it could be of course that for those who were 24 still with the club there might be some concern about 25 information of that nature going to the club because it 26 could be prejudicial to the interests of a particular 27 player. 28 MR GRACE: There is a potential for that. If the Tribunal was 29 minded to give Mr Abrahams permission to remain we would 30 require or request and suggest that the Tribunal ought 31 require that he provide an undertaking not to divulge any

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 74 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 names or any other details that would give rise to the 2 identification of any of the 34 players to the club, that 3 he would not divulge anything that would give rise to the 4 transmission of any personal medical issues that might be 5 revealed in the material to the club, and from time to 6 time that particular undertaking might need to be revised 7 to incorporate other material which is sensitive and 8 otherwise potentially prejudicial. 9 The case as we perceive it at this stage brought 10 by the AFL and presented by ASADA is not necessarily the 11 same against each player. 12 CHAIRMAN: I understand. 13 MR GRACE: I can't remember whether the written submissions 14 identify any differences, but the materials certainly do. 15 To give one example, a number of players identify the fact 16 that they may have been injected with Thymosin. Other 17 players do not. The frequency of injections is another 18 issue that's different. The persons present during 19 injections is another issue. There are various 20 permutations and combinations that are not universal 21 amongst the players. So that is a cause for concern in 22 itself because it may affect the relationship that the 23 club has with other persons who were present or may not 24 have been present but in the vicinity who are not persons 25 who have received infraction notices and are not 26 witnesses. So there are all sorts of potential issues. 27 But there would need to be strict confidentiality 28 if the permission were granted along the lines that I have 29 suggested. How that will be managed is a different issue 30 because, as I understand it, the dissemination of material 31 would extend to the club's directors and also to the CEO.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 75 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Whilst we have no reason to doubt the integrity of any of 2 those persons and would expect that they in turn would 3 respect confidentiality, they are not here today, they are 4 not here - - - 5 CHAIRMAN: And their interests and obligations are different. 6 MR GRACE: Perhaps, yes. 7 CHAIRMAN: As Mr Holmes has pointed out, as directors of the 8 corporation they have certain obligations and 9 responsibilities. 10 MR GRACE: So that's a matter of concern. There's been leaks 11 galore in this case. Even yesterday - - - 12 CHAIRMAN: Sometimes I wonder why I come here. I may as well 13 just read Mr Legrand or something. I think I can guess 14 where Mr Legrand is getting his material from. But 15 anyway. 16 MR GRACE: The 35th person perhaps is a source. I say no more, 17 but it's a possibility. But it's remarkable. The concern 18 we have is just that, that often it may be inadvertence or 19 in a situation such as I have postulated. But, the wider 20 you disseminate, the greater the risk. 21 CHAIRMAN: The more difficult. Yes. 22 MR GRACE: On behalf of the 32 players, and before that the 34 23 players, we have taken extraordinary steps over the course 24 of this whole saga, including in the Federal Court when we 25 were effectively dragged into those proceedings kicking 26 and screaming, we took steps to ensure confidentiality. 27 Some of those steps were unusual but we believe necessary. 28 Our clients are absolutely adamant that, until and unless 29 they are found guilty of any anti-doping rule violation, 30 they do not want their identities revealed; and of course 31 if they are not found guilty, then of course their

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 76 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 identities will never be revealed. It is only if they 2 were to be found guilty. Any risk to that is their 3 greatest concern. 4 CHAIRMAN: Mr Norton, do you want to say anything on this? 5 MR NORTON: We are in a different position to Mr Grace and 6 Mr Ihle. We don't have the connection to Essendon that 7 perhaps they do. In terms, though, of the submission 8 which has been made our position is we have no objection 9 to their presence. We would certainly wish to be heard if 10 there was to be application to make submissions. 11 CHAIRMAN: Yes, if it went further than the presence. 12 MR NORTON: Yes. We would join with Mr Grace in terms of the 13 confidentiality aspect of things, the submissions he has 14 made in terms of what undertakings might be given by 15 Essendon. But in terms of any application for leave to 16 address the Tribunal we would seek to be notified of such 17 an application prior to the application being made to the 18 Tribunal, including the basis for it without that being 19 revealed to the Tribunal before we are given the 20 opportunity to have a look at it. 21 CHAIRMAN: All right. Mr Abrahams, would you like to respond 22 to the matters that have been raised? 23 MR HOLMES: Mr Chairman, I want to adopt something that 24 Mr Grace said about the confidentiality of the names of 25 the players. You have with you, gentlemen, several white 26 folders that we are going to be addressing you on and we 27 are going through page by page. It would be effectively 28 impractical and unworkable if we had to stop every now and 29 again and ask people to leave the room or we wouldn't be 30 able to respond fully to questions about particular 31 entries in there because the names would be revealed. At

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 77 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 the moment we are proceeding and we can address you on all 2 of the evidence which is placed before you. But if we had 3 to have, "Well, he is here for some the time, he is here 4 for not other of the time," that would be unworkable. 5 CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Abrahams, anything further you want 6 to add? 7 MR ABRAHAMS: In response to some of the points that have been 8 made with regard to Mr Holmes's submissions in relation to 9 clause 20(2), my concern there would be he says it's a 10 different forum. I would expect that if those matters 11 were ever to make it to the AFL or were to be considered 12 by the AFL Commission the Commission would no doubt rely 13 on the findings of this Tribunal and would not want to see 14 a rehearing of the entire case so that Essendon can be 15 involved and have an opportunity to have a say on that. 16 So I don't accept that it is the intention of the Code 17 that a club that is potentially liable to sanctions as a 18 result of findings in this forum should have no standing 19 before this forum. 20 With regard to Mr Holmes's submission on clause 21 42.4(a)(i) I note he reads that clause very narrowly. 22 First, on his interpretation the clause appears to apply 23 to someone who is only actually a party to a proceeding or 24 a party to an infraction notice. I haven't studied the 25 technicalities of this, but I'm not sure that ASADA itself 26 is a party to the infraction notice. 27 CHAIRMAN: No, there's a specific provision that enables ASADA 28 to participate in the proceedings. That's covered in the 29 Code and, from memory, also in the ASADA legislation. 30 MR ABRAHAMS: I still make the point that if that provision 31 intended to refer only to a party or to a body that

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 78 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 specifically is referred to in the Code or the Rules it 2 would say that, and it doesn't say that. The club has a 3 very substantial interest. It will obviously be directly 4 impacted by its players not being able to play, those 5 listed with the club, which could be a large number of 6 them, should they be subject to sanctions as well as other 7 interests, devastating commercial effects, damage to the 8 integrity of the club and the like. 9 I think the word "outsider" was mentioned as well 10 in the course of the submissions. It is probably 11 self-evident here again the club is not an outsider. It 12 is really central to these matters. So it has a major 13 interest. 14 On the point with regard to the fiduciary 15 obligations, firstly, I think the issues regarding 16 confidentiality can be managed by the giving of an 17 undertaking of the type that we have discussed, and I'm 18 broadly comfortable with the type of undertaking that 19 Mr Grace put forward. Again, I would like to consider the 20 words in front of me, but in principle I'm comfortable 21 with that and as an officer of the Supreme Court I take 22 that very seriously, professional obligations. 23 CHAIRMAN: We accept that completely, Mr Abrahams. There's no 24 question about that. 25 MR ABRAHAMS: With regard to the fiduciary duty, I don't accept 26 that this quote from the media article suggests that the 27 board of the club would be unable to maintain confidences 28 without breaching their fiduciary duties. It surely can't 29 be a fiduciary duty of a director to act in breach of a 30 confidentiality undertaking that he or she has entered 31 into in good faith in the interests of the club of which

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 79 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 he is a director. I can't accept that his fiduciary duty 2 would require him to breach an undertaking of that type. 3 CHAIRMAN: I think the way it was put was that it could place 4 the directors in a difficult situation in terms of having 5 a conflict with respect to preserving confidentiality but 6 at the same time discharging their fiduciary obligations. 7 I think that's the way it was put, that it could create 8 this difficult conflict in those circumstances. 9 MR ABRAHAMS: That's a matter for them to manage and something 10 I believe they could manage. I would further add as a 11 practical matter I would expect my instructions in the 12 first instance would go to the chief executive officer and 13 then in some instances they would go to the chairman. 14 I don't expect as a practical matter I would be passing on 15 information to the full board terribly often, but I may be 16 required to do that. Again, I don't expect - - - 17 CHAIRMAN: Yes, in terms of discharging your obligations as the 18 legal practitioner representing them. 19 MR ABRAHAMS: Correct. 20 CHAIRMAN: Which puts certain responsibilities on you. 21 MR ABRAHAMS: Correct. As the board is the ultimate decision 22 making authority of the club, I need to be able to provide 23 them with full instructions and information to the extent 24 that they require it without of course breaching my 25 undertakings. 26 Finally, the issue of the AGM was mentioned by 27 Mr Holmes. I guess it's another point and we understand 28 the discussion around the submissions that were put at the 29 earlier direction hearings which we weren't permitted to 30 attend in relation to whether the matter should be public 31 or not. We support this being a private hearing. But

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 80 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 there is an issue of confidence of outside parties and the 2 club's members. It did come up at the AGM. It wasn't 3 something that the management of the club wanted to raise. 4 CHAIRMAN: One of the members thought we were a kangaroo court. 5 MR ABRAHAMS: Correct. And I think the chairman did his best 6 to manage it in a diplomatic way. 7 CHAIRMAN: Mr Abrahams, we are talking about football. I mean, 8 only being called a kangaroo court, that's almost a 9 compliment. Do you want to see the things that get called 10 when the Tribunal is in another mode and it's suspended 11 some player and the members are absolute horror. 12 MR ABRAHAMS: There was more than just that. That was just one 13 heckler from the crowd. It was a strong response from the 14 entire packed-out crowd. I know that's not the most 15 important matter, but I do make a serious submission which 16 is that media representatives being present is one thing 17 and we support and endorse the decision of the Tribunal 18 not to include the media representatives; but the club is 19 a real practical party that is central to this matter. So 20 I think it's important for the perception and the reality 21 of natural justice that the club have a seat at the table 22 and have an opportunity to be aware of what's going on and 23 make any submissions, if necessary. 24 CHAIRMAN: Okay. We will just take a short break. 25 (Short adjournment.) 26 CHAIRMAN: Mr Abrahams, who is here as the legal practitioner 27 for the Essendon Football Club, has made an application to 28 the Tribunal to represent the club in these proceedings. 29 Mr Abrahams has helpfully provided details of the basis 30 for the application and how he considered that 31 representation would be effected. The Tribunal has heard

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 81 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 from counsel for the parties in this matter and has given 2 consideration to the matters that Mr Abrahams has raised 3 and they have raised. 4 Clearly an important aspect to this is the 5 question of confidentiality, I having previously ruled 6 that these proceedings be in private to protect the 7 privacy, private and personal information, of the players 8 who are the subject of infraction notices. 9 The Tribunal is not persuaded that the Essendon 10 Football Club is directly affected as referred to in the 11 Rules. There is no doubt that there could be a 12 consequence to the Essendon Football Club depending upon 13 the ultimate determination of these proceedings. But, 14 having regard to the nature of these proceedings, we are 15 not persuaded that they are directly affected. The 16 players are directly affected, being the persons the 17 subject of infraction notices and who would be suspended 18 if the violations were established. 19 I have a general discretion under the Rules to 20 permit a person to be present. I have to exercise that 21 discretion in this matter having regard to the ruling that 22 I previously gave as to why the proceedings should be in 23 private. Taking account of the matters that I considered 24 in giving that ruling and the position of the Essendon 25 Football Club in relation to these proceedings and the 26 evidence that will be before the Tribunal in these 27 proceedings, I don't think consistently with the ruling it 28 would be appropriate to permit Mr Abrahams to be present 29 to represent the Essendon Football Club and therefore his 30 request is denied. 31 However, in the event of it appearing to the

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 82 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Tribunal during the course of the proceedings that as a 2 matter of fairness the Essendon Football Club should be 3 given an opportunity to renew the application to be 4 represented to address the Tribunal in relation to an 5 issue that has arisen the Tribunal will notify Mr Abrahams 6 and give him the opportunity to renew his application. 7 Thank you. 8 Mr Holmes, we are back to you. 9 MR ABRAHAMS: Mr Chairman, I assume that means I should now 10 depart, so I shall do so. 11 CHAIRMAN: Yes. You can draw that inference. 12 MR ABRAHAMS: Thank you. 13 - - - 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 83 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 MR HOLMES: Mr Chairman, there are two preliminary matters. 2 One is we have made a request for a recording of an 3 interview with Mr Shane Charter made by Mr Hargreaves and 4 Xavier Campbell on 7 November, and the 50-page transcript 5 which was referred to in the article. We would like that 6 document to be produced or a direction that my friends 7 produce that document. I hand up copies of the newspaper 8 report which refers to this interview. 9 CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Henwood is going to create a special 10 file for newspaper reports. Is there objection to it 11 being produced, Mr Grace? 12 MR GRACE: Sir, as I flagged on Monday, there is an issue as to 13 the admissibility of any statement, interview or the like 14 concerning Mr Charter and Mr Alavi. 15 CHAIRMAN: I understand that. 16 MR GRACE: Until and unless the Tribunal determines that that 17 material is admissible, there is no occasion for the 18 request to be actioned because it has no context in the 19 proceedings. 20 CHAIRMAN: It is not disputed, I take it, that Mr Charter was 21 interviewed and that the interview was recorded and 22 transcribed. There is no property in witnesses. A party 23 can interview a person who may be a witness for another 24 party if that person is prepared to be interviewed. 25 MR GRACE: I was not present if there was discussions with 26 Mr Charter, nor was I privy to any proposed questioning or 27 what was to occur. 28 In any event, the matter is almost certainly 29 covered by privilege, legal professional privilege, and 30 section 119 of the Evidence Act pertains to the issue, and 31 I can refer to that if required. If there was any

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 84 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 intention on our part to rely upon any conversations we 2 have had with any witness to these proceedings we would 3 give sufficient notice to the other parties and provide 4 them with a transcript of any recorded interview or a copy 5 of a disc of any recorded interview, if we were intending 6 to rely upon it. 7 Short of that, and short of a ruling on 8 admissibility, we don't believe there is any requirement 9 on our part to provide any requested information. 10 CHAIRMAN: I think it brings us, Mr Holmes, to perhaps just 11 spending a moment in considering how we best deal with the 12 issue of the evidence of Charter and Alavi. Our 13 understanding - you correct me if I'm wrong - is that you 14 would propose at an appropriate time to put before the 15 Tribunal various statements of those two persons as 16 evidence of what they - that what they state would be 17 evidence and it would be put on the basis, firstly, that 18 it's relevant and, secondly, on the basis that those 19 persons are not prepared to attend the Tribunal to give 20 oral evidence or to be cross-examined, and that in those 21 circumstances the Tribunal should receive their statements 22 as their evidence and act on that evidence. Obviously 23 there would be submissions about the weight that would be 24 attached to that evidence and what the probative value of 25 that evidence was. 26 Now, the position of the players, as we 27 understand it, is that they object to the Tribunal 28 receiving that evidence. I don't understand them 29 objecting on the basis that the evidence is not relevant, 30 but it's on the basis, as I understand it, that having 31 regard to the fact that those witnesses would not be

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 85 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 available to be cross-examined that it would be unfair to 2 receive the evidence in those circumstances and presumably 3 also possibly argued that the probative value in those 4 circumstances is so limited that it shouldn't be received. 5 It seems to us that at the appropriate time we in 6 effect should conduct a voir dire inquiry on the question 7 of whether that evidence should be received or not, which 8 will mean we will have to receive the material to 9 understand what it is and what's in it. It may be 10 necessary for there to be witnesses called and 11 cross-examined with respect to the conduct of the 12 interviews or the taking of the statements - that's a bit 13 dependent on the position taken by those who are 14 objecting - and we hear submissions and we make a decision 15 as to whether that evidence will be received or not. 16 If it's not received, then obviously we don't act 17 upon it and the case proceeds on that basis. If it is 18 received, we can act upon it but obviously it would still 19 be subject to submissions with respect to the weight that 20 should be attached to it . 21 If we get to that situation it would seem to me, 22 subject to issues that may arise about privilege 23 et cetera, that it would be necessary in order to make a 24 ruling for the Tribunal to be informed of whatever 25 statements are available in terms of what the witnesses 26 have said, which means that your request then becomes 27 relevant to the question of whether the Tribunal receives 28 the evidence or not so that it's properly informed as to 29 all aspects of that evidence to make a decision. 30 I think we need to think ahead a little bit in 31 terms of when might be the best time to deal with this

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 86 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 issue because it will take a little time to deal with the 2 issue and we have to fit it in with the way the matter is 3 proceeding. I think from our point of view, subject to 4 what my colleagues think, I would like to know a lot more 5 about this case before we get to that situation because it 6 enables me to have a much better context in which to deal 7 with that issue. So I would suggest that we continue on 8 and when we resume we work out an appropriate time to deal 9 with that particular matter, which is obviously very 10 important and it is in fact quite critical as far as the 11 parties are concerned. But otherwise I think we would 12 like to continue to receive evidence that enables us to 13 get a fuller understanding of just what the case is, what 14 the issues are, and then of course we can put that 15 evidence into that context. 16 MR HOLMES: We would endorse that approach. 17 CHAIRMAN: So on that basis I wouldn't be pressing Mr Grace at 18 the moment to provide this information, but that situation 19 can change once we get to a position where we are going to 20 be dealing with this issue. 21 MR HOLMES: Mr Jones, we were anticipating opening again today 22 and tomorrow with the documents. 23 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 24 MR HOLMES: And possibly calling a Professor Handelsman 25 tomorrow. 26 CHAIRMAN: I saw reference to that. 27 MR HOLMES: There has been an objection to the receipt of his 28 evidence because of the time needed to get ready for 29 cross-examination and a possible report - - - 30 CHAIRMAN: Can I say this. It is commendable to the parties 31 that we have got this case started within a month of these

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 87 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 infraction notices being issued. Now, look, if a 2 proceeding like this was in the courts it would have been 3 months - months and months - before we got near a hearing. 4 I think the parties, from our point of view, are to be 5 commended on the way in which they have worked very hard 6 and worked as well together as they could to get this case 7 proceeding within a month. But we need to keep it in 8 perspective in the sense that expedition is very 9 important, we all want it, but at the same time we want 10 fairness and justice and people having adequate 11 opportunity to prepare and present their case. So we have 12 to balance one against the other. 13 In the end of course if it is not going to be 14 fair, well, it's just got to take longer and we have to 15 accept it takes longer if that's necessary. But I do say 16 we do commend the parties for the effort they have put in 17 to get this case to the stage where we are at and to have 18 it proceed as expeditiously as it possibly could. 19 MR HOLMES: Mr Jones, this seems to be a programming issue as 20 to when that's the appropriate stage to address the 21 admissibility and the receipt of the Charter and the Alavi 22 evidence. We had been preparing those folders of all of 23 the statements from each of the witnesses, and we would 24 see this statement and this transcript to go in there as 25 one of the available sources of evidence for this Tribunal 26 to act on. 27 There now being a legal professional privilege 28 claim made, then that's another hurdle that has to be 29 addressed. So they should put on whatever affidavit 30 substantiates a claim for legal professional privilege, 31 bearing in mind the article talks about the conversation

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 88 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 wasn't confined to the players and the players' legal 2 representatives; other people were involved. So we've 3 question that. But that's a matter for this Tribunal. 4 CHAIRMAN: Yes. What about if we proceeded on the basis that 5 you put together the statements that you have that you 6 would propose to provide to the Tribunal as evidence. We 7 don't get them at this point. You provide them to the 8 other parties and they consider them and then come back to 9 you in terms of any material they have which relates to 10 this issue. If there's a claim for privilege in relation 11 to any material, then you would be informed as to what the 12 basis of the claim for privilege is. If we have to rule 13 on it, we will rule on it. But let's know what it is. At 14 the same time, if the parties could dialogue as to, having 15 regard to the programming aspect that you referred to, 16 when would be the best time for us to deal with it, having 17 regard to the other evidence that's been put before the 18 Tribunal. 19 MR HOLMES: That's the next issue with Professor 20 Handelsman - - - 21 CHAIRMAN: There's an overseas issue with him, is there? 22 MR HOLMES: He is going overseas in January. He is available 23 on the first day that we start next year, which is the 24 12th. We had been led to believe that my friends have an 25 expert or are considering calling or tendering a medical 26 opinion, and perhaps wanting their medical witness to be 27 present whilst he's giving his evidence. We have 28 suggested that if that were to occur we would be calling 29 Professor Handelsman early in January, the 12th, but then 30 he would be overseas. So when he comes back at the end of 31 January we then show him his report and then we would have

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 89 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 another delay while we wait for his availability to come 2 and give evidence or we have an opportunity to see their 3 medical expert. 4 So what we are suggesting is, "We have a break 5 now until the 12th. You have Professor Handelsman's 6 report and all the documents you wanted in relation to 7 him. Why don't you give us your expert's report and we 8 can have Professor Handelsman and your expert in the 9 witness box together on 12 January." 10 CHAIRMAN: This is the hot tub, is it? 11 MR HOLMES: The hot tub, yes. So this Tribunal can approach it 12 in the most expeditious and fair way to both parties. We 13 haven't been able to get agreement about that programming. 14 CHAIRMAN: Okay. We are a bit naive in relation to the hot 15 tub. My colleague and I, we are sort of in the past where 16 these procedures weren't invented. But we certainly 17 understand that I think virtually in every court now there 18 are these special rules in relation to expert evidence and 19 expert evidence being dealt with in a way that's as 20 efficient as possible and avoids the need to be going back 21 and forth and back and forth, which is what you are 22 referring to. Although we are not familiar with it, we 23 would certainly encourage it if it's appropriate for this 24 particular case. 25 You could lead his evidence-in-chief on Friday if 26 that was going to be any help, but it's probably not. 27 MR HOLMES: It is in the reports. 28 CHAIRMAN: It's in the reports. So there's clearly a lot to be 29 gained if experts can give their evidence together because 30 we avoid that situation of having to go back to them. 31 MR HOLMES: Sometimes directions are made that the experts

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 90 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 confer. 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes, beforehand. 3 MR HOLMES: And produce a joint report on what they agree and 4 disagree. So it makes it easier. 5 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I agree. Again, I think we would much prefer 6 if the parties were able to resolve this between 7 themselves rather than drawing us into it, to be honest. 8 This is where these proceedings - they don't fit exactly 9 with the others because we are partly civil and we are 10 partly not civil, and how these sorts of arrangements, 11 which may be fine for a medical negligence case or 12 whatever or whatever, fit with a case like this is not 13 necessarily easy to determine. 14 We will be honest, we are not familiar with the 15 process ourselves from our past experience because it all 16 worked in a more traditional way as far as expert evidence 17 was concerned. That's one of the reasons it's been 18 changed, because of the difficulties that it produced. 19 So we would like to leave it to the parties to 20 see if they can come to an arrangement as to how we deal 21 with the expert evidence. We are in a position if we got 22 stuck, Mr Holmes, with the witness being overseas and we 23 needed to contact the witness, we could do a videolink. 24 MR HOLMES: Yes, but we don't know whether there's video 25 facilities at the other end. 26 CHAIRMAN: That would have to be on the basis that he was able 27 to get to a place where there were video facilities, and 28 it is obviously desirable that we don't have to do that. 29 MR HOLMES: But in these anti-doping cases it has been used 30 that Tribunals have directed experts to confer to make it 31 easier for the Tribunal to consider these questions

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 91 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 because we are all lawyers, we are not medical - - - 2 CHAIRMAN: If there's consensus, it's best to find out there's 3 consensus and proceed on that basis. Can we leave it for 4 the moment anyway for the parties to discuss further and 5 we might look at it again tomorrow. 6 MR HOLMES: All right. 7 CHAIRMAN: See how things are going. 8 MR GRACE: Sir, can I just raise two matters that are raised by 9 the issues that have just been discussed. The first, in 10 terms of the issue of the admissibility of Charter and 11 Alavi's evidence, we would seek to have that agitated at 12 the earliest possible time after the opening. But we are 13 mindful of the availability of Dr Handelsman. So our 14 suggestion would be that Dr Handelsman be called on 15 Monday, 12 January. We will be in a position to 16 cross-examine him on that day and perhaps if required into 17 the next day, and then thereafter we have this issue of 18 Charter and Alavi determined, at least as far as reception 19 of the evidence and admissibility. As to weight, it's a 20 different issue; I appreciate that. 21 CHAIRMAN: Weight, that's a matter for submissions at the end. 22 MR GRACE: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN: That may be right. At this stage I still don't know 24 enough about it, Mr Grace - - - 25 MR GRACE: Yes, I understand that. 26 CHAIRMAN: To commit to that. 27 MR GRACE: We do not have an expert report. 28 CHAIRMAN: All right. 29 MR GRACE: We have consulted with an expert to discuss a number 30 of issues. We do not have a report. We are trying to, as 31 lawyers, get our heads around the Handelsman material. We

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 92 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 haven't received all of it as yet from - - - 2 MR HOLMES: Yes, you have. 3 MR GRACE: There is some dispute. We will talk about that. We 4 believe there is some other material that we need. But, 5 assuming we get that, we will be in a position over the 6 next few weeks to confer with any proposed expert on our 7 part to better understand the Handelsman material. It may 8 well be we do not call any expert or seek to rely upon an 9 expert report. 10 CHAIRMAN: At the moment you are seeking assistance to enable 11 you to properly deal with the evidence that's going to be 12 put forward. 13 MR GRACE: Yes, we do. So it may be that when we return there 14 will be no expert on our part, there will be no report and 15 it would simply be an issue of cross-examination of 16 Dr Handelsman. It may be that we would seek to have an 17 expert in court to assist us in the course of that 18 cross-examination, but that's different - - - 19 CHAIRMAN: It's a different issue. 20 MR GRACE: It's a different issue. So that's that matter. The 21 next matter I want to raise is a completely separate 22 issue - - - 23 MR HOLMES: Before we leave that, that leaves us in an 24 untenable position because we don't know what arrangements 25 to make for Professor Handelsman. We don't know whether 26 we are going to finish the medical issues in January. We 27 don't know whether - - - 28 CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr Holmes, you proceed on the basis that 29 they are not putting forward any expert report. So you 30 proceed on the basis of calling your expert witness. 31 MR HOLMES: But is that fair to Professor Handelsman? He is

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 93 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 coming along blind. He doesn't know if people are going 2 to challenge his integrity. He doesn't know if people are 3 going to put contrary arguments to him. He's just coming 4 along to allow this Tribunal to say, "Well, we are not 5 going to tell you whether we dispute your evidence. You 6 just have to get into the witness box unprepared and 7 unable to assist the Tribunal and be ambushed." That 8 really is quite unfair to a witness, a professional 9 witness, who has gone to the trouble of putting on very 10 lengthy reports to assist this Tribunal. But he's now 11 going to be ambushed. 12 With respect, there should be a direction that 13 the players face up to whether they want to rely upon 14 medical evidence so that as a matter of fairness Professor 15 Handelsman can consider any contrary view, otherwise it's 16 just trial by ambush for a witness, and that is quite 17 unfair and I object to the suggestion my friend has 18 said - - - 19 CHAIRMAN: I didn't understand Mr Grace to be - I don't think 20 I can be directing Mr Grace to inform you of how he is 21 going to cross-examine the witness. But if he is going to 22 be putting substantial propositions to the witness, which 23 is what you may be concerned about, expert propositions to 24 the witness, then that's a different matter. I just don't 25 know. 26 MR HOLMES: That's what he said. He's going to have his expert 27 sitting in the back of the court and asking questions. 28 MR GRACE: No, I said I may have. Can I indicate this. There 29 will be no attack on the integrity of Professor 30 Handelsman. I can assure you of that. We are well aware 31 of his integrity and his expertise. So there will be no

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 94 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 challenge to that, and I can advise the Tribunal of that. 2 That's the first matter. 3 The second issue is we are seeking advice in 4 relation to certain aspects of Professor Handelsman's 5 report and we would be quite prepared to give to Mr Holmes 6 and those instructing him a list of the issues which may 7 not be exhaustive because matters may arise during 8 cross-examination which cannot be foreshadowed, but we 9 would certainly be prepared to give to Mr Holmes a list of 10 the issues that we intend to cross-examine upon, in terms 11 of headings. Mr Holmes can then communicate that to 12 Professor Handelsman and we can provide that by, I would 13 suggest, 7 January, which is the Wednesday of the week 14 prior. That would give us sufficient time between now and 15 that date to confer with any expert that we so choose and 16 get an understanding, or perhaps more to the point 17 determine what issues may be in dispute. 18 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 19 MR HOLMES: Mr Jones, this case has been going and there have 20 been procedural directions about the CEO put on his case 21 and then the players put on their case. Nothing has come 22 forward. Now my friend wants another three weeks until 23 7 January to not provide evidence but to give a possible 24 but not exhaustive list of questions which again doesn't 25 say what evidence is going to be led. 26 In the interests of expedition and management of 27 this process we would be urging the Tribunal, bearing in 28 mind we don't know the availability of this other witness, 29 we don't know when there's going to be a mutually 30 convenient date for Professor Handelsman to come back, 31 that their expert and Professor Handelsman be directed to

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 95 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 confer between now and 7 January and come up with a joint 2 report on what they agree and disagree and then you can 3 call Professor Handelsman on the 12th and if their expert 4 is not available on that day they can call them some other 5 time and then Professor Handelsman knows what he's going 6 to address. That would manage the process for this 7 Tribunal in a fair way to all the parties and to the 8 professional witnesses. They need some respect, with 9 respect to my learned friend. 10 MR GLEESON: Mr Chairman, might I be heard on this issue. We 11 support the proposition advanced by Mr Holmes. It seems 12 that the effect of what Mr Grace is suggesting by way of 13 an approach would permit the players to decide whether to 14 put on expert evidence only after they have enjoyed the 15 opportunity of cross-examining Professor Handelsman. That 16 seems to be an unusual proposition, and the difference 17 between the parties seems to be that Mr Holmes is pressing 18 for not just a list of issues but any report in advance of 19 Professor Handelsman being cross-examined. We say that's 20 fair and it is a conventional approach that's being sought 21 by ASADA. 22 The statement by you, sir, to the effect that 23 ASADA will not be ambushed we accept of course. But the 24 scenario that might play out if the players' approach is 25 adopted might mean that a hint of ambush occurs and 26 prejudice is irrecoverable because Professor Handelsman 27 would be cross-examined in circumstances where he wouldn't 28 know that there was going to be another voice. 29 There is also the issue of expedition. If it is 30 to be the case that there is to be hot-tubbing, which 31 seems sensible and appropriate in our respectful

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 96 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 submission, then that should only or probably can only 2 occur if we know of the existence of the other expert and 3 the content of their report prior to Professor Handelsman 4 being cross-examined solo. 5 MR GRACE: I have said nothing different, sir. If we intend to 6 rely upon an expert we will provide a report prior to 7 Professor Handelsman giving evidence. 8 CHAIRMAN: All right. 9 MR GRACE: I don't know why there has been a misunderstanding 10 about that. At the present time we have no report and, 11 unless we feel that it's required, we will not be 12 providing a report. That does not prevent us from being 13 able to cross-examine Professor Handelsman based upon 14 information that we may obtain from an expert. 15 As I have indicated, we are prepared to give to 16 Mr Holmes a list of issues in the event that we do not 17 provide a report as to the matters that we intend to 18 cross-examine upon. That's it. We are prepared to be 19 held to that in terms of this issue of ambush or putting 20 on evidence at a later date or whatever the suggestions 21 might be . 22 CHAIRMAN: What you are saying is that if you intend to rely 23 upon a report it will be provided. 24 MR GRACE: Yes. 25 MR HOLMES: Mr Chairman, can I ask for a direction under Rule 26 42.3(d) that the players, if they intend to call an expert 27 witness, shall provide - - - 28 CHAIRMAN: I thought there was a rule in relation to that. 29 Which one is it, Mr Holmes? 30 MR HOLMES: 42.3(d)(i), and they provide that by Monday, 31 5 January. That gives us a bare seven days and they have

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 97 DISCUSSION 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 had the indulgence of ignoring previous directions and 2 they are now wanting further time, Monday, 5 January 2015. 3 CHAIRMAN: Yes. I will give that direction, Mr Holmes, that 4 the players provide pursuant to rule 42.3(d)(i) any report 5 that they intend to rely upon of an expert witness on or 6 before 5 January 2015. 7 MR HOLMES: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN: If they don't intend to rely upon a report, I won't 9 give a direction about it, but I think the provision of a 10 list of issues that would be the subject of 11 cross-examination would be helpful and fair to the 12 witness. 13 Could we then take it that we would proceed to 14 hear the expert evidence on the 12th? 15 MR HOLMES: We will make arrangements. Would that be both 16 witnesses? 17 CHAIRMAN: Both witnesses, yes. 18 MR GRACE: Sir, could I just raise another housekeeping matter, 19 and that's concerning Friday, 16 January. 20 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 21 MR GRACE: I have a personal matter, a wedding of my nephew in 22 Sydney as it turns out. I would ask if possible that the 23 Tribunal doesn't sit on that day. 24 CHAIRMAN: It is not a problem to us if the other parties don't 25 mind us losing that day. We will make up the time. So we 26 won't sit on the 16th, Mr Grace. 27 MR GRACE: Thanks. 28 CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, we might get back to you presenting your 29 case, after all that. 30 MR HOLMES: Yes, at last. 31 CHAIRMAN: Never mind. Where did we get to?

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 98 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 MR HOLMES: My note is we had got to - - - 2 CHAIRMAN: Mr Sedrak. 3 MR HOLMES: Yes. I had taken you to some evidence that 4 Mr Sedrak had given of Mr Dank going along with some rugby 5 league players on two occasions. 6 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 7 MR HOLMES: I was then going to move to September. 8 CHAIRMAN: Still on 2011? 9 MR HOLMES: Still on 2011. I was going to take you to AS-3, 10 which is part A, section 1, the first volume. 11 CHAIRMAN: Section 1. 12 MR HOLMES: Yes. I had taken you to how Mr Dank had approached 13 Mr Charter for some injections for Essendon, and 14 Mr Charter had spoken to his associate, who had purchased 15 them, and they were then provided to Essendon. If you go 16 to page 119 of AS-3, you will see that Dr Ageless had sent 17 a bill to Essendon Football Club - that's Mr Charter - and 18 Essendon had paid the invoice for the products which had 19 been ordered by Mr Dank. The invoice is over the page. 20 That's Dr Ageless. 21 CHAIRMAN: That's the remittance advice, 119. 22 MR HOLMES: 119, for the invoice, which is on page 120. 23 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 24 MR HOLMES: Notwithstanding that, Mr Charter apparently 25 followed up that invoice by sending a text message to 26 Mr Dank. If I take you to AS-4 at page 33 of the text 27 messages. Page 33, line 21, on 11 September: "Can you 28 follow up Essendon and send them the invoice for the 29 B-dose to see if they are onto it?" Dank responds, line 30 22, "Will do." So at that stage we have Mr Charter and 31 Mr Dank being involved in the supply of injections to

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 99 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Essendon. 2 I did say that Mr Robinson was encouraging 3 Essendon to look favourably on Mr Dank. There is evidence 4 from Dr Reid that his view of - I take you to AS-5, 5 volume 1. This is the court book, part B, transcripts, 6 volume 1. 7 CHAIRMAN: What page is that? 8 MR HOLMES: It is tab 3. 9 CHAIRMAN: It is an interview with Dr Reid. 10 MR HOLMES: Yes. And page 14, line 45, "Okay" - - - 11 CHAIRMAN: Page, sorry? 12 MR HOLMES: 14, tab 3. "Okay, Dean Robinson was appointed to 13 the club as being this guru. So I didn't doubt that. He 14 had been in several good jobs and then he insisted that 15 Steve Dank came with him." He describes about "Steve Dank 16 was various things told to me, he was a biochemist, he was 17 a pharmacist, he has been 10 years in professional sport, 18 he was a nutritional expert he told" - - - 19 CHAIRMAN: Sorry, is it page 14 of this transcript? 20 MR HOLMES: Page 14, line 45. 21 CHAIRMAN: Down the bottom. 22 MR HOLMES: Down the bottom. 23 CHAIRMAN: I'm with you. Thank you. 24 MR GRACE: Sir, can we just have some time to find this because 25 we only got provided with this material by disc and we 26 haven't got the same tabs. We don't have any tabs. 27 MR HOLMES: I think we provided them with a hard copy. 28 MR GRACE: One. 29 CHAIRMAN: It is an interview with Dr Reid on 18 February 2013, 30 Mr Grace. 31 MR GRACE: Is this part B, transcripts?

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 100 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 CHAIRMAN: Part B, transcripts. Yes. It's the first volume. 2 MR NORTON: Mr Chairman, there is an issue, which I don't wish 3 to agitate now. I'm mindful we have had delays and we 4 want to get into the opening of the matter. But I wish to 5 raise perhaps after the luncheon break about the provision 6 of this material and the fact that we have only one hard 7 copy between our legal team. Perhaps if I note that, that 8 I wish to come back to it, because it is obviously a road 9 map that ASADA are seeking to guide the Tribunal by and we 10 have only been given one hard copy on Monday, the material 11 having been served in a different form earlier on. 12 CHAIRMAN: Okay. The important thing is that - the transcript 13 is going to reflect where this is. What we are talking 14 about at the moment is the interview of 18 February 2013. 15 Page 14, line 45. 16 MR HOLMES: And going over the top of page 15. So at the end 17 of the season 2011 Robinson was employed there. Dank was 18 there as well. His presence was one of the matters that 19 Robinson insisted. So that explains why he is engaged in 20 these activities which you wouldn't expect a non-employee 21 to do. 22 Now if we go to AS-4, which is the folder with 23 the statements at the beginning and the text messages, and 24 we go to Mr Earl's statement at page 41. If you go to 25 page 49. 26 CHAIRMAN: Yes. This is the interview with Mr Earl on 27 18 November 2013. 28 MR HOLMES: Yes. I read paragraph 74: "I believe that the 29 CJC-1295 and Thymosin which I was treated with was 30 provided by Dr Khan by Dank. On 27 August 2011 I sent 31 Dank an SMS, `Hey, mate, I'm starting my leg weight

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 101 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 program next week. I was thinking could I put some CJ in 2 the stomach to help get some good gains.' I sent the SMS 3 to Dank because he told me that CJC-1295 improved 4 performance at Cronulla and I wanted to get back to full 5 fitness." I'm reading from page 49, 74. 6 CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have it. 7 MR HOLMES: Then if I go forward to paragraph 81, "In the 8 course of my treatment the supply of CJC-1295 and Thymosin 9 ran out. Dr Khan asked me to contact Dank to source more 10 CJC-1295 and Thymosin. On 31 August I sent Dank the 11 following message: `Hey, mate, how's things? Me and Ijaz 12 are all out of Thymosin. Just a heads up.' I remember 13 I sank Dank an SMS chasing him to provide Dr Khan some 14 more CJC-1295. Having reviewed the extracts I'm able to 15 state I sent Dank the following SMS from my mobile on 12 16 September: 'Hey, mate, just seen Ijaz. He was saying 17 we're almost out of CJC as well, Sandor.'" 18 Then 84, "I arranged to meet with Dank to meet 19 him at the clinic at Mascot to obtain the CJC 295. We 20 went to the clinic after hours. The clinic was similar to 21 the shopfront and Dank had keys for the premises. He used 22 the keys to open the clinic and I went inside with him. 23 There was no-one else at the clinic, and once inside Dank 24 opened a large fridge which I saw was full of small glass 25 vials similar to the ones he had in the cooler bag. 26 Whilst at the clinic Dank told me he had just run a test 27 on some products he had sourced from China. I can't 28 remember if he was referring to GHRP6 or Hexarelin. He 29 told me that one of them came back only 50 per cent 30 purity. I also recall he told me that GHRP2 and GHRP6 31 were banned under the WADA Code and he was using Thymosin

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 102 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 on horses." 2 MR GRACE: Sir, could I just raise an issue. This just 3 highlights some of the problems that arise in these 4 proceedings because Mr Dank is not here and this is a 5 proceeding against Mr Dank as well as the players. I can 6 readily understand how this is information or evidence 7 that might be used against Mr Dank. But I ask the 8 Tribunal to note with a question mark how can this be used 9 against the players. So I don't want to flag it every 10 time, but I would ask that you have that in mind every 11 time this generic type of evidence about Mr Dank gets 12 referred to and read. 13 CHAIRMAN: My understanding would be, Mr Grace, that from 14 ASADA's point of view they are all pieces in the jigsaw 15 puzzle, and when they are looked at in isolation it is one 16 thing; when they are looked at as part of the jigsaw 17 puzzle it's another. I assume this is all evidence ASADA 18 says is important to establish a modus operandi and 19 relationships which then when you look at subsequent 20 events they have to be put in the context of what's 21 occurred here, and on that basis it's relevant as far as 22 everyone is concerned. 23 By all means, at any stage if you are unsure, 24 indicate that the evidence is subject to objection and we 25 will take that into account at the appropriate time. 26 MR GRACE: Yes. We have requested Mr Earl attend for 27 cross-examination. 28 CHAIRMAN: Okay. 29 MR GRACE: We haven't been told whether he is available or not. 30 CHAIRMAN: I assume he is. He is the former Cronulla player. 31 MR HOLMES: He is the former Cronulla player - sorry, Canberra

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 103 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Raiders. He was at Penrith when he met Mr Dank. He had 2 his shoulder reconstructions in mid-2011, and he went to 3 Canberra. 4 CHAIRMAN: That's right. 5 MR HOLMES: But it's an example of, as you observe, Mr Dank 6 treating professional footballers or athletes with 7 Thymosin and not disputed by the recipient. 8 Can I go now to Mr Charter having a further 9 meeting with Mr Dank. If we look at the diary notes which 10 are made of this meeting, they are found in AS-3, at 11 page 113, which is on - the diary note is marked 12 11 September. It is at this meeting that Mr Dank tells 13 Mr Charter that he needs the peptides GHRP6, that's growth 14 hormone release peptide 6, IGF, insulin growth factor, 15 IGF-1 and CJC-1295. 16 If you look at page 114, you will see some 17 writing in brackets in a box, "RP6", then "IGF" and "LR3", 18 and then "CJC". I have been referring to it as CJC-1295, 19 but it is written down "1296". It is the second page 20 which is the meeting - sorry, can I just correct one 21 thing. The first page on 11 September, that was a meeting 22 on 11 September. The second page was a couple of days 23 after that meeting. So they met on the first day, that's 24 11 September, and when you get the evidence of Mr Charter 25 he will talk about a conversation with Michael Zacharia, 26 whose name appears on the top right-hand corner, and then 27 over on page 117 you will see an article about him being 28 subject to professional misconduct allegations. 29 CHAIRMAN: This is a plastic surgeon? 30 MR HOLMES: Yes. It's a bit of a distraction in the sense that 31 Mr Charter said, "He came to me to see if I could get

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 104 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 somebody to assist him in relation to some disciplinary 2 proceedings." But then, having done that, he went on to 3 talk about setting up business in Melbourne. He then had 4 the meeting a couple of days later which is at page 114. 5 I had drawn your attention to the words in the box where 6 he ordered those peptides which he said were for a 7 research program he was conducting with athletes. 8 But then if you look immediately below the box 9 underneath the CJC-1296 Mr Dank also told Mr Charter that 10 he needed Thymosin Beta-4. So there's Thymosin and then 11 there's something which we would suggest is Beta-4, and 12 Mr Dank said that he needed those peptides in a rush and 13 before Christmas. 14 So if I could take you then to AS-4, which is the 15 statements, and if I could take you to page 29 of the 16 statements you will see the statement of Shane Charter. 17 MR GRACE: What is the ASA number up the top? 18 MR HOLMES: It is page 30. ASA2.0051.1536. That's the page. 19 MR GRACE: Could you just give us a minute to get it? 20 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Is this one of the statements that you will be 21 putting in as a statement of Charter? 22 MR HOLMES: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN: So this is subject to objection. 24 MR GRACE: Yes. 25 MR HOLMES: Subject to objection, yes. 26 CHAIRMAN: And that's a matter we will rule on later on when we 27 deal with all the statements. So we will note that as 28 subject to objection, Mr Grace. 29 MR HOLMES: It starts on page 29, and he gives his name, his 30 business address, his website address and he attended an 31 interview on Friday, 26 July. "I was asked to clarify

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 105 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 certain points that I provide further information to that 2 which I had provided to ASADA during an interview on 3 8 May, and I wish to add the following information. 4 Peptide orders. I first met Stephen Dank on or around 29 5 August. [His phone number]. During our first meeting 6 I made some notes of what was discussed. I have provided 7 ASADA with a copy of those notes I made, and during that 8 meeting Dank placed the order of B-dose to provide for 30 9 players. He told me during the meeting he was working 10 with Dean Robinson, who was the high performance coach," 11 and there's a copy of those notes. "On 11 September 12 I sent an SMS to his mobile chasing the invoice I had sent 13 to Essendon for the B-dose Forte." 14 CHAIRMAN: That ties in with the earlier documents you put in. 15 MR HOLMES: Yes. Then, "A couple of days after chasing Dank 16 about the invoice I met with him again. During this 17 meeting Dank told me he needed the peptides GHRP6, IGF-1, 18 LR-3 and CJC-1295 for a research program he was conducting 19 with athletes. Dank told me he needed the peptides in a 20 rush and before Christmas. He also told me he needed 21 Thymosin Beta-4. I queried Dank's order as I was aware 22 that Nima Alavi did not have a TGA-approved sterile 23 facility to compound peptides. Dank told me not to worry 24 as they were for research purposes. I made notes of the 25 meeting and a copy is attached." I will come back to that 26 later on when he goes to China. 27 Then on 24 September Mr Dank and Mr Hibbert - you 28 will recall that Mr Hibbert was the representative of ASN, 29 and they exchanged some text messages which you will find 30 in volume AS-4 in the text message section at page 305. 31 At line 12, Darren Hibbert texts Mr Dank, "Beta Thymosin

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 106 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 cream. Your thoughts?" Dank responds, "No thoughts of 2 them at the moment, mate. I'm thinking if it's all really 3 worthwhile." Line 15, "Because of the price?" Line 16, 4 "No, the whole peptide thing. I don't understand how life 5 works and how some people get away with mediocracy." 6 "What's happened?" Then they appear to end the discussion. 7 We then go to 26 September. At page 89 we 8 have - - - 9 CHAIRMAN: Is that of the text messages too? 10 MR HOLMES: The text messages, yes. At 196 there are some text 11 messages between Dank and Robinson. Dank, at 196, says, 12 "I'm watching a 6-foot 4 and six-foot 5 tight-ends running 13 very fast all morning. No need for the ruckmen to run 14 inefficiently." Dank then texts Robinson, "The peptides 15 will leave at 4 o'clock today on ice." Then Dank says, 16 "Hey, mate, can they book the return flight for late 17 Thursday? I will do some peptide work with the anti-aging 18 doctors." Then it continues, "Sure. Call me re flights. 19 Can you send me the tracking numbers for the two 20 packages?" "Okay. What's the correct mailing address?" 21 Then it continues, "Do you know where Tory's package is or 22 do you have a tracking number?" "Hi, mate, I will get 23 Justin onto it this morning. Have you got the containers 24 or will you have them tomorrow? Text me the address." 25 What we make of these ones, these appear to suggest that 26 they are discussing a peptide delivery, organised by Dank, 27 at Essendon. 28 Then we have Mr Dank finally meeting Mr Hird and 29 the Essendon officials. If I take you to page 121 of 30 the first volume, AS-3, we have the appointment of the 31 time, 121.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 107 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 CHAIRMAN: What page is that, sorry? 2 MR HOLMES: 121 of the first volume, AS-3. We see the person 3 who organises the meeting is Dean Robinson. It is a Steve 4 Dank interview for the scientist position, and the 5 required attendees are Corcoran, Thompson, Dank and Hird, 6 and the meeting is at 11 a.m. So we have the interview. 7 Then there is a text message following that, and I will 8 quote it. It is in CB-B. You need to look at the court 9 book, volume B. Volume B is three volumes. 10 CHAIRMAN: Which court book is it? 11 MR HOLMES: Court book part B, document 17. 12 CHAIRMAN: We haven't formally received this, I don't think, 13 have we? 14 MR HOLMES: Yes, I think it's AS-5. 15 CHAIRMAN: AS-5.2. 16 MR HOLMES: Yes. 17 CHAIRMAN: What page, Mr Holmes? 18 MR HOLMES: If you go to - - - 19 CHAIRMAN: Which tab? 20 MR HOLMES: Tab 17, and it's the start of the foot of page 45. 21 CHAIRMAN: This is an interview with Dean Robinson of 8 August 22 2013. 23 MR HOLMES: That's correct. 24 CHAIRMAN: And it's page 45. 25 MR HOLMES: The last question by Ms Kerrison on this page, 45, 26 "Now, on 28 September there's a text message from James 27 Hird to you. It says, and I quote 'Deano, it's Hirdy.'" 28 I think that might be - and then over the page, 46, the 29 text message, "I quote, 'Not sure what you and Steve are 30 up to tonight, but you feel like coming to Cab and come 31 outside for a bottle of wine, have a good chat, relax,

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 108 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 chat about what we're all going to do and what we're going 2 to do to turn this club around, that would be great. If 3 you guys are committed elsewhere or don't feel like it, no 4 worries. But give us a call back.' What can you tell me 5 about that? Would that be the day that Steve had his 6 interview for the job as sports scientist as well? Yes. 7 So I think I've discussed that previously in the last 8 transcript where he basically got us to come over. He's 9 outlining having discussions, wanting to get to know Steve 10 better. In that conversation got raised his knowledge of 11 Shane Charter and his history with Shane Charter and 12 whether we knew him got raised, and basically I said that 13 was the first I heard of Shane Charter, but Steve said he 14 knew him and that's where those discussions took place." 15 On 30 September that interview - - - 16 CHAIRMAN: It was the 28th before that, wasn't it? 17 MR HOLMES: Yes. 18 CHAIRMAN: So now we are on to the 30th. 19 MR HOLMES: The 30th. That's where he was offered a job. 20 CHAIRMAN: This is Dank. 21 MR HOLMES: Dank, as a sports scientist. If you go to 22 page 127 - sorry, it starts at 124. 23 MR GRACE: Which book? 24 MR HOLMES: AS-3, the first volume, part A, section 1. 25 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it. 26 MR HOLMES: On the 30th, "Dear Stephen, it is with great 27 pleasure I formally confirm your offer of employment with 28 the Essendon Football Club and welcome you to our team. 29 Please find detailed below the relevant terms and 30 conditions of your employment. Performance 31 scientist" - it's at page 124 - and he reports to Dean

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 109 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Robinson, the high performance coach. "Your commencement, 2 subject to signing a copy, will be 1 September," and his 3 base compensation. 4 Now, if we go over the page we have the position 5 description: "On a weekly basis your job description can 6 be summarised as follows: involvement in all sessions as 7 required by [Dean Robinson, I insert] the high performance 8 coach; undertake research in the areas of biomechanics and 9 physiology to aid the improvement of player development, 10 biomechanics and sprinting, including but not limited to 11 ground contact time, stride frequency and stride length 12 along the horizontal and lateral power generation, areas 13 of resiliency, including but not limited to groin 14 screenings and injury prevention intervention, sleep 15 studies and cardiovascular and respiratory testing, and 16 its application to performance. Involvement in research 17 being conducted into other areas which relate to the 18 performance of the team; responsible for collection and 19 logging of all loading data as it pertains to the 20 condition of the players." 21 It is the next one which is the important one, 22 and that is, "Responsible for the design of 23 supplementation protocols and recovery procedures and 24 their implementation." 25 If I could go to the court book AS-5.2, that's 26 part B, the transcripts, volume 2, Mr Robinson was asked 27 about what that was involved in, and the page reference is 28 tab 16, page 83. 29 CHAIRMAN: This is the interview with Robinson on 19, 20, 30 21 March. 31 MR HOLMES: Yes. At about line 36.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 110 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 CHAIRMAN: Which is page? 2 MR HOLMES: 83, under tab 16. 3 CHAIRMAN: Got it. 4 MR HOLMES: At about line 36, "You mentioned the supplement 5 program that he was going to be responsible for. Yes. 6 Can you give us as much detail as possible. What did that 7 actually mean?" The next answer at line 45, "In basically 8 looking at the supplements, looking at the WADA Code, the 9 AFL Code and seeing what falls within the Code and what we 10 can use, consulting with a doctor and getting the tick-off 11 from the doctor prior to any utilisation of any 12 supplements. It was to source the supplements." 13 Then if we go down to about line 23, "Was he 14 responsible for actually administering the supplements? 15 Yes. And was he responsible for actually performing the 16 blood test, by that I mean taking the blood and taking it 17 for analysis? He was involved in taking the blood but at 18 all times I believe he got a guy down from Sydney. 19 I can't remember who it was. I had met him once or twice. 20 He would come down to collect the blood. Does the name 21 Ijaz Khan ring a bell with you? Ijaz Khan? It does ring 22 a bell but not in relation to the collection of the test. 23 But Ijaz I think authorised the test. So Ijaz, yeah, Ijaz 24 was the doctor that authorised the tests." 25 Going back to the letter of offer in AS-3, that's 26 the first volume, part A, section 1, there's reference to 27 other duties, "Overseeing of the sports dietician." So 28 the sports dietician was underneath Mr Dank. The next 29 one. This is page 2, "Required to keep abreast of all 30 cutting-edge training techniques, research and 31 technologies; required to aid the collection and analysis

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 111 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 of selected monitoring tools to aid in the optimal 2 preparation of players; required to attend all meetings as 3 designated by the high performance coach." Then, "Daily 4 and weekly reporting on individual player developments 5 within the high performance department meetings and 6 other ..." 7 Then if you go to page 126 you will see there is 8 reference to the Essendon Code of Conduct, which he was 9 obliged to observe. Then three pages over, at 129, the 10 contract was, in clause 12, a one-year contract, 11 "Notwithstanding changes to location, title and position 12 or remuneration as advised to you and confirmed in 13 writing, the conditions contained in this agreement will 14 continue until 31 October or such time as you enter into a 15 new agreement." We have the Code of Conduct, which is 16 attached, but we were unable to find anything about the 17 WADA Code in that Code of Conduct. 18 Then if we can go to a couple of days later, 19 that's 4 October, and Mr Dank and Mr Robinson then discuss 20 in some text messages the Code. I think it might be 21 worthwhile that I remind you gentlemen of the Code. You 22 have a small folder, exhibit AS-2, which is part E of the 23 Code. 24 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 25 MR HOLMES: I mentioned that each year the prohibited list is 26 varied. You will recall on Monday I took you to the 2011 27 prohibited list which came into circulation or was 28 published on 18 September. 29 CHAIRMAN: 2010. 30 MR HOLMES: It's under tab 4. That's 2011. But it was 31 published in September 2010. I had drawn your attention

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 112 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 to the S2 peptide hormones and subparagraph (5), 2 I referred to the fact that there was the express 3 reference to peptide hormones and the growth hormones, 4 insulin-like growth factors, fibroblast growth factors and 5 the like, and I had spoken about "any other growth factor 6 affecting muscle, tendon or ligament protein 7 synthesis/degradation, vascularisation, energy 8 utilisation, regenerative capacity or fibre type 9 switching" and then "or other substances with a similar 10 biological effect". 11 When Mr Robinson and Mr Dank on 4 October - and 12 this is at page 90 of the text messages in AS-2, the 13 second volume, part A, sections 2 and 3 - they have a 14 rather unusual discussion. 15 CHAIRMAN: AS-3, I think it is. 16 MR HOLMES: Yes, it is page 90 of the text messages. Sorry, 17 AS-4. It is the text messages, the second volume, page 18 90. 19 MR GRACE: Is this 210? 20 MR HOLMES: At 210, yes. Strangely, the opening text 21 message - - - 22 CHAIRMAN: 210. 23 MR HOLMES: Yes. On page 90. Dank says to Robinson, "Hi, 24 mate. Peptides didn't make the WADA list for next year." 25 Now that's inconsistent with the peptide hormones. 26 Robinson responds, "I know." And then Robinson texts 27 Dank, "Check out the S0. It may fall there." Remember S0 28 was drugs which hadn't been approved for human therapeutic 29 use. 30 Mr Chairman, I referred to S2.5. S2.5 was the 31 same in the 2010, 2011, 2012. This discussion is in the

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 113 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 light of that clause. 2 I was up to 212. Dank says, "A little grey, but 3 CJC-1295 probably doesn't." Robinson to Dank, "Is it 4 approved by any government agency for human therapeutic 5 use?" He doesn't seem to answer that. Then the next one, 6 "GHRP6 doesn't fall under that. Thymosin and GPLC 7 doesn't." Dank back to Robinson, "No, but never submitted 8 for therapeutic use?" For some reason he then refers to, 9 "Licence dissolved when company dissolved." 10 Then there is reference in 218, "6 falls under 11 the releasing factor." So they seem to be conscious of 12 the releasing factor element of S2.5. "That seems to be 13 the grey point. It seems as though it has to be 14 authorised for use. Doesn't allow for clinical trials 15 et cetera." Dank then texts to Robinson, "Remember 6" - 16 and we read that as GHRP6 - "is not an endogenous 17 releasing factor but too intense to use fully." Robinson 18 then texts Dank, "Yes, this area needs more clarity." 19 Then they talk about the calves' blood substance. 20 "Actovegin is approved in Europe. That is easy." 21 Robinson texts Dank, "Yes, they approved that again." 22 Then Dank texts Robinson, "GPLC and Thymosins are just 23 peptides. No worries there." 24 Now, if you just stop there, there is express 25 reference to peptides. But then what do they discuss and 26 decide to do? Robinson says to Dank, "Can we just call 27 them amino acids or something of the kind?" Dank says to 28 Robinson, "Yes, that is all they are, an amino acid 29 blend." 30 Then over the page on page 91, line 227, Dank to 31 Robinson, "A conjugated amino peptide chain. You could

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 114 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 even throw" - we read that as "t-h-r-o-w' - "bioactive in 2 there. I like that." Dank tells Robinson, "Leave 3 peptides out. That's fine." 4 So they seem to be conscious of the reference to 5 peptides in the Code. So they say, "Let's call them 6 something else." 7 MR GRACE: "That's fine" had nothing to do with that 8 conversation. That's two weeks later. 16 days later. 9 MR HOLMES: Sorry, Mr Grace has pointed out that 229 doesn't 10 fit with the 228. It is a later conversation. 11 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 20 October. 12 MR HOLMES: We then have at that stage the response of Mr Hird. 13 Court book volume B, which is AS-5, at tab 1. 14 CHAIRMAN: Which court book is it, Mr Holmes? 15 MR HOLMES: Court book AS-5, volume 1. Court book part B, 16 transcripts. 17 CHAIRMAN: Yes. What tab? 18 MR HOLMES: It's tab 1. If you go to page 9, at the top of the 19 page, "We explicitly told Dean and Steve that" - - - 20 CHAIRMAN: This is an interview with James Hird? 21 MR HOLMES: James Hird, yes. I'm relying upon the top of the 22 page, the answer there, and on the previous page there's 23 some introduction to it. Hird said, "We had a dietician 24 at the time. We asked her to stay, but Dean said he would 25 rather Steve come and Benita stay." Then talking about 26 the beginning. 27 Then over at the top of page 9, "We explicitly 28 told Dean and Steve that anything that was to be given to 29 our players had to be approved by Bruce Reid, not had to 30 be approved by Bruce but had to be WADA approved, it had 31 to be legal and it could not harm our players, and the

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 115 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential)

1 transcript. I'm taking you to page 15 of the transcript. 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it. 3 MR HOLMES: At about line 23 Mr Nicols, "Yeah, I might go on 4 now to Steve Dank." Mr "Yes." "What's your 5 understanding of the circumstances about how he joined the 6 club? Originally when he was at the club I was bedridden 7 at the time, so I couldn't, wouldn't be able to tell you. 8 I know Dean sort of recommended him from what 9 I could - what I heard, but that's about it. When's the 10 first time you met him? I met him, I rocked up to 11 training late, like, before Christmas or a bit before, but 12 I met him at the Gold Coast. He was up at the Gold Coast 13 in a camp that we had in late 2011. I think that was the 14 first time or then I might have met him briefly at a 15 training session before that. I might have come down to 16 do 15 minutes or so. And how did you get introduced to 17 him? What was his role as you understood it? Initially 18 I think he was doing the GPS stuff, but couldn't tell you 19 really. I know when I was down at training I remember him 20 seeing him do all the things, all the things in the back 21 in the GS and doing it on the computer. But at that time 22 I saw him all I saw him doing. But did you have any 23 interaction with him at that time? A little bit, but 24 not - I just introduced myself and up in the Gold Coast. 25 I think he started talking a bit more about the supplement 26 stuff. And what do you mean by that when he talked a bit 27 more about the supplement stuff? Because I was injured at 28 the time. He talked about being at the time taking over, 29 like, over the Christmas break that he wanted me to inject 30 myself over the Christmas break, but nothing ever came 31 from it. It never happened at the time. I don't know

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 117 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 what. I really didn't get into details with him. I think 2 he was trying to sort of say he was there, I guess." 3 Now, there's some interesting bits in the 4 chronology. "I was wondering if you could establish some 5 dates. Well, it would have been late November because 6 I had the operation in late November. It would have been 7 around that time." 8 The preseason training started on 19 October. We 9 see that in Mr evidence at volume AS-6.1, the 10 first volume of the players' transcripts. 11 CHAIRMAN: 12 MR HOLMES: Page 8 at line 41, "I hurt my shoulder so 13 I had a shoulder reconstruction. Then I came back on 14 19 October for the preseason." At this stage Mr Dank had 15 no further dealings with Mr Sedrak. You remember 16 I mentioned Mr Sedrak being a supplier from about August 17 to about November. If I can take you to AS-5, volume 2, 18 under tab 13, this is Mr Sedrak's interview. 19 MR GRACE: Can I note an objection to the Sedrak interview. 20 CHAIRMAN: Yes, okay, Mr Grace. 21 MR HOLMES: It is under tab 13. At page 40 of the transcript, 22 at about line 31 he's asked, "So can you tell me about any 23 other phone conversations or meetings you had with Stephen 24 Dank?" Mr Sedrak, "That's all. It ended up around the 25 end of November 2011. And you know the market is the 26 market, like, I have a friend everywhere and then people 27 told me they were getting it, they were getting what they 28 need from Melbourne." So that's the end of Mr Sedrak and 29 his involvement in these proceedings. 30 Can I then go back to the text messages and I'm 31 now on 2 November. The text messages in volume AS-4, part

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 118 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 A, section 3. At page 305, at the foot of the page, I had 2 taken you to September text messages but then at the foot 3 of the page, line 18 - - - 4 CHAIRMAN: We will just get it. 305, yes. 5 MR HOLMES: Dank and Hibbert talk about confirmation from 6 Professor Mihaescu. "Confirmation from Professor 7 Mihaescu, who developed a method for extracting peptides 8 from chick embryo that Humanofort contains Thymosin 9 peptides Beta 4, 10 and 15." Then at line 21, "Good boy. 10 Well done. I'm in Melbourne. Just landed. I will ring 11 you later in the morning." So at that stage he's 12 conscious of Thymosin Beta-4 and its presence. 13 Now, at around this time Mr Dank introduced 14 himself to Mr Alavi. 15 CHAIRMAN: This might be a convenient time, Mr Holmes, if that 16 suits you, seeing you are moving to another point. We 17 will resume at 1.30. 18 LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 119 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 UPON RESUMING AT 1.30 PM: 2 CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, would you like to continue? 3 MR HOLMES: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN: I think we were up to 2 November 2011 when we 5 adjourned. 6 MR HOLMES: I would now like to take you to a volume. This 7 court book hasn't been tendered yet. It is part B1. It 8 holds the transcripts of some interviews given with 9 Mr Charter and Mr Alavi. Could I tender that volume. 10 I understand there will be an objection. 11 CHAIRMAN: What we will do, it is subject to objection and what 12 we will do is we will mark it for identification at this 13 stage on the basis that it is subject to objection. 14 Obviously we are going to deal with the objection at the 15 appropriate time. I think we are up to AS-7. 16 #EXHIBIT AS-7 - (For identification.) Court book volume B1. 17 MR HOLMES: This folder has four interviews and I'm going to 18 the second tab, which is the interview of Mr Alavi. It 19 starts on 19 November 2013. 20 CHAIRMAN: So this is the second tab, and what page, Mr Holmes? 21 MR HOLMES: 56. 22 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it. 23 MR HOLMES: Mr Alavi is giving evidence about Mr Shane Charter. 24 "I met Shane before I met Steve [Steve Dank] because Shane 25 had set up an anti-aging clinic in Southbank and Shane 26 mentioned Steve Dank and mentioned, you know, Essendon 27 football team and how there's a potential for the pharmacy 28 to be used. So I thought it was a good opportunity and 29 then when Steve came in I knew who he was. He just walked 30 in unannounced. There was no, you know, appointment set 31 up or anything, but I'm guessing that he would have been

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 120 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 involved in anti-aging because of Shane Charter and that 2 they had some kind of business relationship together, 3 associations with other people involved. Well, obviously 4 Shane Charter and then he was involved in another 5 anti-aging clinic in Sydney not long ago, maybe six months 6 ago, called, let me think, owned by a lady called Julia, 7 Juliette. Anyway, I will come back to that. That was an 8 anti-aging clinic that was doing a lot of botox and 9 fillers and things like that. His brother was working 10 there as well." 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Then we have some text messages that 26 suggest that that meeting that I have just read the 27 transcript for occurred on or around 4 or 5 November. So 28 if you go to the text messages, which is AS-4 under the 29 section 3, and you go to page 34, line 40. 30 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 31 MR HOLMES: On 4 November Shane Charter is texting a mobile

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 121 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 telephone number to Steve Dank, 04 et cetera, and then it 2 says, "Called Nima, the pharmacist, for a check." So if 3 we go from that one on page 34, we then need to go to page 4 15. On that same day, he having been given Alavi's mobile 5 phone number, he sends a text, number 1, "Hi, mate. Are 6 you available?" That's Dank to Alavi. Then the next one 7 is from Alavi to Dank. "Hi, Steve. Sorry I missed you 8 this morning. When are you back in town? Regards, Nima." 9 Then if you go to page 7 of the texts you have 10 Shane Charter texting - this is page 7, entry 131 and 11 132 - Shane Charter texting Alavi, "Steve tells me that 12 the talks went well. Let's catch up Tuesday to go over 13 things. Is 10 am okay with you?" That's on 5 November. 14 Then line 132, and there's obviously some excitement 15 generated in Mr Alavi with the prospect of this business 16 opportunity and he responds with the words, "Hey, buddy. 17 Went really well. We're speaking the same language. 18 Looking forward to catching up Tuesday." So that's when 19 the Alavi/Dank relationship commenced. 20 If we go then to page 15, a bit further down, 21 line 3, "Hi, mate. Just reminding you to send your email 22 so I can forward some peptides I need sourced." So now 23 we've got Alavi - - - 24 MR GRACE: What number is that, sorry? 25 CHAIRMAN: Number 3 on page 15, Mr Grace. 26 MR GRACE: Thank you. 27 CHAIRMAN: We have previously been taken to 1 and 2. Now 28 Mr Holmes is taking us to 3, which is 6 November 2011. 29 MR HOLMES: Yes. We stay on that one, number 3. Then number 30 4, "No problems, mate. I'll send it to you as soon as 31 I get back to the office." Then a couple of days later on

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 122 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 the 9th, Steve Dank to Nima Alavi, line 5, "GHRP6, one 2 microgram per ml. Thymosin, two micrograms per ml." 3 That's Dank to Alavi. And then line 6, "Can you also 4 source CJC-1295 and ITPP" - - - 5 MR GRACE: Can I just interrupt. Mr Holmes mistook a reference 6 to "mg". That should be milligrams. 7 CHAIRMAN: Yes, milligrams per millilitre. 8 MR GRACE: He said micrograms. It is a significant issue. 9 MR HOLMES: I am grateful to my friend. 10 CHAIRMAN: The record will note that. 11 MR HOLMES: "Can you also source GJC-1295 and ITPP and also 12 Hexarelin." 13 CHAIRMAN: Is Hexarelin one of the substances that there is an 14 alleged violation by Dank? 15 MR HOLMES: Yes, it is, in relation to Essendon. There is no 16 consent form or any part of the program that occurred in 17 February which referred to Hexarelin, but there is use by 18 Dank of Hexarelin at Essendon. That is 9 November. 19 If we then go to the first bundle, AS-3, and we 20 go to page 166, we have on the next Monday Mr Hibbert, 21 Darren Hibbert, the gentleman from ASN, at page 166 of 22 the first volume AS-3, on Monday the 14th he sends an 23 email to Stephen Dank both at the Essendon Football Club 24 and to Dank at his gmail address and the message is, "May 25 explain why CJC and other peptides including GHRP2, GHRP6, 26 Hexarelin, et cetera, have an effect" - - - 27 CHAIRMAN: Mine didn't come through on the photocopy, 28 Mr Holmes. What is it? "Has an effect", is it? I should 29 write it here. 30 MR HOLMES: Yes, "have an effect on", then the new line is 31 "muscle repair when using IM," intramuscular. You will

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 123 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential)

1 2 3 4 CHAIRMAN: And the test has been performed at The Palms, Royal 5 North Shore Hospital. 6 MR HOLMES: Sorry, that's where the analysis - - - 7 CHAIRMAN: Yes, not the taking of the blood; the analysis of 8 the blood has occurred there. 9 MR HOLMES: 10 11 12 13 I will just keep in date order. 14 CHAIRMAN: It says "Collection date 16 November". 15 MR HOLMES: Yes. Then on 18 November, if you go to page 194, 16 we see that on 18 November 46 pill boxes were delivered to 17 the players or to Essendon twice a day, weekly organisers 18 at Mr Dank's request. If I go back to page 170, you will 19 see that that delivery on 18 November was the result of an 20 email that Mr Dank sent. You see that he has the 21 letterhead, "Stephen Dank, performance scientist, Essendon 22 Football Club, Napier Street" on his Essendon Football 23 Club account to Nima Alavi, "Subject, pill box. Hi Nima. 24 Can we" - and there's Mr Dank's ordering products for 25 Essendon - "can we order 46 by seven day pill boxes. 26 Thanks, mate." 27 CHAIRMAN: "Pill boxes", that would be little boxes in which 28 you could put on a seven-day basis - - - 29 MR HOLMES: Yes, twice a day. 30 CHAIRMAN: You can put whatever it is in a little compartment 31 for each day.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 125 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 MR HOLMES: So you don't have to worry about remembering. 2 CHAIRMAN: You don't have to worry, like I have to worry about 3 whether I've taken it on the right day. 4 MR HOLMES: If you go back to 169, you will see that Alavi's PA 5 had some communication with Mr Dank. The first one is at 6 the bottom of the page. "Hi, Stephen. We are processing 7 the order for you and want to make sure we are sending you 8 the correct size of pill box. There are boxes which hold 9 one or two pills per day, boxes which hold five to 10 per 10 day for am and pm pills, and boxes which hold morning, 11 noon and evening. Could you specify which of the three 12 sizes?" 13 CHAIRMAN: Okay. 14 MR GRACE: Sir, there might be a way we could short circuit a 15 lot of this. We admit, pursuant to whatever process you 16 want us to admit, that pill boxes were delivered to 17 Essendon, that the players got pill boxes, that they were 18 given tablets to put in the pill boxes. None of those 19 tablets are alleged to be prohibited substances. We admit 20 that the players had blood tests. We admit that the blood 21 tests were ordered through Dank 22 , that the players had no knowledge of the 23 pathology requests and the results we accept are what's 24 replicated in the folders. 25 I don't know if that saves time. But the blood 26 tests were taken over a course of a number of months of 27 the players. I'm not sure what period of time or what 28 players. But we accept that there were blood tests taken 29 and the results were never communicated to the players, 30 nor were the players aware of what the results were, nor 31 did the players sign any consent forms or any other

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 126 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 documentation in relation to the blood tests. 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes. But it is admitted that they had blood tests. 3 MR GRACE: Yes. 4 CHAIRMAN: And that this doctor was involved in the - - - 5 MR GRACE: Yes, I think there was another doctor maybe also 6 involved. 7 CHAIRMAN: At the moment we are not dealing with the actual 8 taking of the blood. We are dealing with the referral to 9 the diagnostic laboratory which this doctor has made that 10 referral. Mr Holmes has heard everything that's been 11 said. 12 MR GRACE: I don't know if that helps or not. 13 CHAIRMAN: I understand why you need to in effect trace this 14 chronology, Mr Holmes, even though it takes time. I can 15 understand why, from your point of view, you feel it's 16 necessary to do it. So we will leave that with you. 17 Thank you, Mr Grace, for that concession. 18 MR HOLMES: All right. So, 169 was the requests. Then they 19 were delivered on the 18th. 20 At this stage I would like to move to 21 21 November. It is page 190. Mr Edward van Spanje, who 22 is one of Mr Dank's associates in the business Medical 23 Rejuvenation Clinic, you see on that page 190. It is an 24 email from Best Buy Supplements, but it is signed Medical 25 Rejuvenation Clinic which, as the dramatis personae shows, 26 is a business that Mr Dank is involved in. He is sending 27 an email to Nima Alavi and to Dank at Essendon and his 28 gmail account and he's requesting a quote for products 29 which he requires. He wants them in amber vials and 30 preconstituted as set out there. 31 It says, "I believe Steve is going to talk

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 127 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 production requirements with you." So Alavi is being 2 approached for a considerable order. "If required I can 3 be contacted on at the numbers below to join the 4 conversation. Given the requirements below, could you 5 provide us with a quote for each peptide and the preferred 6 run size to minimise the price." So it's obviously the 7 setting up of an ongoing business relationship. The 8 substances are CJC-1295, GHRP6, IGF, Melanotan II, SARM 9 S22. You will recall I drew your attention that SARM S22 10 is expressly referred to in the prohibited list. Then 11 Thymosin. 12 If you hold that page, I will come back to that 13 with page 209, which is the response, which comes back on 14 5 December. They are talking in terms of the "Peptide 15 analysis, no discount, nought bonus per 10 units." It's 16 the attachment to an email on 207. 17 CHAIRMAN: It is called "Peptide analysis"? 18 MR HOLMES: Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN: "No discount", et cetera, "No bonus for 10 units." 20 MR HOLMES: Yes. 21 MR GRACE: Just a query. This is not a reply to van Spanje, 22 this is a document to Charter. Mr Holmes indicated it was 23 a reply. 24 MR HOLMES: Sorry, it's a response because Alavi is putting 25 together a spreadsheet analysing the P&L as well as 26 product requirements. So he's looking at - he's 27 discussing it with Charter so he can go back to van Spanje 28 and Dank at the Medical Rejuvenation Clinic. 29 CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, where did this document come from, 209? 30 MR HOLMES: 209 is attached to 207. 31 CHAIRMAN: 207 is - - -

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 128 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 MR HOLMES: An email from Alavi to Charter. The document 207 2 to 209 came from Mr Charter. 3 MR GRACE: Sir, we have a query over this because we are not 4 satisfied that the materials reveal that 208 and 209 is 5 the document referred to in that 207 page, because 207 is 6 expressed "page 1 of 1". If you look at the bottom of the 7 document it says "As discussed" and then I can't read what 8 the next word is, "prices Ed had disclosed", that's what 9 the words say, "prices Ed had disclosed. See below." 10 CHAIRMAN: "Ed" would be the fellow we were talking about a bit 11 earlier. 12 MR GRACE: If you go to 190, there are no prices disclosed and 13 there seems to be a missing link somewhere. We are not 14 satisfied that 208 and 209 are what's meant to represent 15 "see below" in the brackets on the first line of Alavi's 16 email to Charter. 17 CHAIRMAN: It talks about an attachment, Mr Grace, one 18 attachment. 19 MR GRACE: Yes. But the "prices Ed had disclosed, see below" 20 and says, "I can complete the spreadsheet once we have an 21 idea of cost." 22 CHAIRMAN: I think Mr Henwood is just pointing out to me there 23 is a reference up the top there "Peptide analysis", et 24 cetera, which would be a spreadsheet, which I think that's 25 what you are saying is this document, Mr Holmes, isn't it? 26 MR HOLMES: Yes. On page 207 there is a heading "One 27 attachment 59.3 kilobytes". 28 CHAIRMAN: Then the "peptide analysis" is underneath. 29 MR HOLMES: Then there is an icon. 30 CHAIRMAN: Yes. That's a spreadsheet. 31 MR HOLMES: That is page 208 and 209, but it was provided to us

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 129 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 by Mr Charter. 2 CHAIRMAN: Right. 3 MR HOLMES: Whereas on page 190 that is something that was 4 provided to us by Deloittes, by the AFL. So we are just 5 putting that we haven't been able to speak to Mr Charter 6 to clarify the missing link, and the right-hand side of 7 that email on page 207. 8 CHAIRMAN: That's all right. The record will note that 9 Mr Grace raised a potential issue in relation to those two 10 documents. We will see where we go from there. 11 MR HOLMES: You will recall that Mr Charter was going to travel 12 to China on 26 November. On that day, if we go to AS-7, 13 MFI - sorry, I have given you the wrong reference there. 14 Can I correct that to AS-4, the second volume I handed up. 15 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 16 MR HOLMES: And Mr Charter's statement. 17 CHAIRMAN: That's in section 1, isn't it? 18 MR HOLMES: Yes. Page 29, the third last dot point. 19 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 20 MR HOLMES: The third last dot point says, "To complete and 21 fill Dank's peptide order "- - - 22 CHAIRMAN: Which heading is it under, Mr Holmes? 23 MR HOLMES: On page 29 there's a heading on the left-hand side 24 of the page "Peptide orders". 25 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it. It's underneath "I made notes of 26 this meeting which were referred to earlier." 27 MR HOLMES: Yes. 28 CHAIRMAN: That's where he talks about going to Shanghai. 29 MR HOLMES: Yes, "To complete and fill Dank's peptide order 30 I travelled to Shanghai on 26 November and obtained 31 samples of GRHP6, CJC-1295 and IGF-1 from GL Biochem.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 130 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 I returned to Melbourne on 2 December. On my return to 2 Melbourne I declared all the peptides at customs at the 3 airport. A copy of my flight itinerary to Shanghai is 4 attached to this statement as SC-3." He deals with this 5 in his evidence - - - 6 MR GRACE: We have requested this, sir, the customs 7 declaration. 8 CHAIRMAN: The customs declaration that's referred to there? 9 I don't know whether ASADA has it. They may not have it. 10 But, anyway, the request has been made for it. 11 MR HOLMES: I think they have been advised that we don't have 12 that. 13 MR GRACE: Sir, I object to this material being received in the 14 way it is, because part of ASADA's case is that he did not 15 come back into Australia with Thymosin Beta-4. He may 16 have come back with these other substances that he 17 mentioned originally before he made the handwritten 18 amendment, and ASADA knows this because their case is that 19 Thymosin Beta-4, 0.25 of a gram of it, was imported into 20 Australia and delivered by courier on 29 December 2011 to 21 Mr Alavi. If that's not their case, we would like to know 22 now because that's the presumption we have operated on. 23 MR HOLMES: I don't know that there is any disagreement between 24 us. 25 CHAIRMAN: I wouldn't have thought there is. This is just 26 tracing through the steps that were taken. 27 MR HOLMES: Leading up to the order. 28 CHAIRMAN: And leading up to where Mr Grace is at, I think. 29 What he's talking about here, that's not the substance 30 that's the subject of the infraction notice. 31 MR HOLMES: No, but this is leading up to it.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 131 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 CHAIRMAN: I understand that. 2 MR GRACE: It is the subject of the infraction notice, sir. 3 CHAIRMAN: Which one? 4 MR GRACE: Thymosin Beta-4. 5 CHAIRMAN: Is that mentioned here? 6 MR GRACE: Yes, by handwritten amendment, on my copy. 7 CHAIRMAN: This is looking at page 29? 8 MR GRACE: We have a different copy. 9 CHAIRMAN: Wait a minute, yes, sorry. Down the bottom. Okay. 10 There's been something added. 11 MR GRACE: There is an (a) and there is a footnote. 12 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 13 MR GRACE: So the point I'm making is that we don't have the 14 customs declarations. We have a written statement or 15 written submissions from ASADA which suggest that 0.25 of 16 a gram was not brought into the country at this time when 17 Charter returned, but was in fact delivered by courier to 18 Mr Alavi from overseas on 29 December. 19 MR HOLMES: That's our case. 20 MR GRACE: That's their case. So, in terms of opening on this 21 issue, it would be positively misleading for the panel to 22 presume that, firstly, Charter declared Thymosin Beta-4 on 23 his customs declaration and, secondly, that he brought it 24 into the country. 25 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 26 MR HOLMES: If I address these as Mr Charter was asked to go to 27 China by Dank to find a reliable supplier and he came back 28 with samples, that's as far as we - - - 29 CHAIRMAN: You are not taking it any further than that. 30 MR HOLMES: No. 31 CHAIRMAN: So you are not using that as proof of what he

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 132 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 actually brought back at that time. 2 MR HOLMES: We are not asserting that he brought back Thymosin 3 Beta-4 as the handwritten amendment says. 4 CHAIRMAN: Okay. That's all right. Mr Grace may want to make 5 something of the fact later about the fact that he's put 6 it in. 7 MR HOLMES: He's put it in, but we can't ask him about it. Can 8 I take you to MFI AS-7, and this is Mr Charter under tab 1 9 at page 43. 10 CHAIRMAN: That's one of the court books, I think, isn't it? 11 MR HOLMES: No, it's the Charter transcripts, court book B-1. 12 Charter and Alavi transcripts. 13 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it. 14 MR HOLMES: Do you have page 43? 15 CHAIRMAN: Which tab are we under? 16 MR HOLMES: Tab 1. This is the request to Charter by Dank to 17 go over there and find a good quality supplier of 18 peptides. At line 20, "Then there was a request made of a 19 list of peptides that were required. I then had to go 20 over to China and had to - I went through about six or 21 seven factories before I found the right one with the good 22 quality stuff. So it was always going to be that you 23 would source your substances or your products from China? 24 That was always going to be the source? Well, the idea 25 was to spend my time finding the right manufacturer. Yes, 26 and did you eventually find the best manufacturer in 27 China? Yes. Who was that? It was actually GL Biochem in 28 Shanghai and the guy who runs it is a Californian, he's an 29 American. He utilises the facility over there in China. 30 I met with him, went through their quality control, 31 physically took samples of the peptides. I ran them

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 133 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 through the laboratory myself to make sure they were up to 2 standard. Then I took those same samples, weighed them 3 up, packaged them, signed it up so we knew it wasn't going 4 to be tampered with, and took them." 5 If we stop there and we go to the first volume 6 that we tendered, AS-3, part A, can I just give you some 7 background information on GL Biochem. It is at page 28 of 8 the bundle. We are going back to 2009 and "The American 9 company Commonwealth Biotechnologies Inc is pleased to 10 announce" - - - 11 MR GRACE: We object to this document, sir. 12 CHAIRMAN: On what basis? 13 MR GRACE: Documentary hearsay. 14 CHAIRMAN: We can receive hearsay, Mr Grace. 15 MR GRACE: Yes, you can, but it has no probative value 16 whatsoever, sir. 17 CHAIRMAN: We will receive it subject to your objection. It is 18 difficult to assess the probative value, bearing in mind 19 the stage we are at so far. 20 MR HOLMES: At page 28 the American company is announcing that 21 it has acquired all of the outstanding shares in GL 22 Biochem Shanghai, a privately owned Shanghai based 23 company, and I emphasise these words, "the largest 24 supplier of research grade peptide products and peptide 25 reagents globally. Over the last five years GL Biochem 26 and related businesses have demonstrated compound annual 27 revenue growth of over 40 per cent. Based on the results 28 of an independent financial due diligence report in 2008, 29 revenues were over $13 million and a net income after tax 30 of approximately $2 million. The proposed transaction 31 would be a transformative deal for CBI providing it with a

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 134 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 strong balance sheet, significant cashflows and propelling 2 it into a position of dominance in the research grade 3 customer peptide market." 4 There is then a quote, "CBI has an existing 5 peptide business unit, Mimotopes." Mimotopes is based 6 here in Melbourne, but the American company is now 7 acquiring the remainder of GL Biochem back in 2009. It 8 repeats that at the bottom of the page, "a clear global 9 leader in the research grade peptide market." 10 Then over the page there's a heading about CBI. 11 "CBI offers cutting-edge research and development products 12 and services to the global life sciences industries. CBI 13 now operates through, one, CBI services, a contract 14 research organisation; two, Fairfax Identity Laboratories, 15 a DNA reference business" and number three, if I can ask 16 you gentlemen to note particularly, the company that owns 17 GL Biochem in Shanghai owns Mimotopes Pty Ltd Melbourne, 18 Australia, a peptide and discovery chemistry business, and 19 then Venturepharm, a contract research consortium. 20 If we go then to the next heading about GL 21 Biochem (Shanghai), "It's an international leader in the 22 research, development, manufacture and marketing of 23 diverse biochemical and fine chemicals with a particular 24 strength in peptides, peptide reagents and related 25 products. With over 800 highly trained staff in 26 state-of-the-art facilities, GL Biochem is now the largest 27 manufacture of research grade peptides and peptide 28 reagents globally." 29 If you go to page 31 - - - 30 MR GRACE: You forgot about page 30, the last paragraph. "Read 31 as a caution not to place undue reliance."

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 135 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 CHAIRMAN: It wouldn't need the caution formally to be cautious 2 about this document, Mr Grace, I can assure you. Some 3 people might suggest there is a bit of puffery there. 4 Yes, 31? 5 MR HOLMES: 31, yes. There is a similar press release back in 6 2009. One of the important differences is the reference 7 to GMP, which is a reference to the quality assurance. 8 You will see the last bullet point, there is a standard of 9 quality, good manufacturing practice. 10 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it. 11 MR HOLMES: Then over on page 32 there is a reference to 12 Mimotopes. Could I take you then to 693 in the same 13 bundle. This is coming forward. There is the internet 14 website of GL Biochem and on 693 - - - 15 CHAIRMAN: Is this off their website, is it? 16 MR HOLMES: This is off their website. You will see that they 17 have a catalogue number on the left-hand side and they 18 have a product, and relevantly for our purposes the second 19 catalogue number 55820, "Thymosin Beta-4 acetate." Do you 20 gentlemen see that there? 21 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 22 MR GRACE: What is above that, sorry? I can't read it. 23 CHAIRMAN: It's the "acetate", I think, above it, Mr Grace. 24 MR GRACE: "Thymosin A1 acetate"? 25 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 26 MR HOLMES: If we go then to 694 and on to 695. This is the 27 reference to the GMP that was the standard that GL Biochem 28 had in 2009 and continues to have. "GL Biochem 29 manufactures GMP grade peptides under strict adherence to 30 good manufacturing practices. The GMP peptide technology 31 platform" - and there is a series of bullet points - "raw

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 136 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 materials, synthetic methods, product purification; GMP 2 GLP analytical method, development and validation; release 3 specification, design and testing; stability testing if 4 needed; GMP packaging; GMP compliance documentation." 5 Then there's a heading "GMP compliance". That 6 involves "training, audit, raw material control, 7 analytical method and documentation, SOP" - standard 8 operating procedures. Then it goes on, "A certificate of 9 analysis for GMP peptide" and there is a reference to it. 10 Then their quality control management, "the raw material, 11 the process validation and scale up; the purification 12 process and validation; the analytical results method; 13 development and validation packaging; the impurity profile 14 analysis and release." So that's the company that he 15 found when he went to China. 16 MR GRACE: Sir, we object to 693, 4 and 5 on the basis that it 17 cannot be received as truth of their contents. What these 18 pages are are extracts taken on the various dates in 19 November 2014 of what's contained on various websites 20 attaching to this company. 21 Two points to be made: The assertions in the 22 document are incapable of proof by reason of simple 23 statements on the document. They are simply assertions 24 and can't be taken any further, unless there's some 25 corroborating evidence as to the fact that they have all 26 these attributes that they say they do. 27 Secondly, in terms of relevance, what was the 28 situation, I ask rhetorically, in November/December 2011 29 and January/February 2012? 30 CHAIRMAN: All right. That objection has been noted. We won't 31 rule on it at this point, but that objection has been

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 137 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 noted. Can we just know when it was taken off the 2 website? 3 MR HOLMES: On the date that appears on the bottom right-hand 4 corner. 5 CHAIRMAN: 11 November. 6 MR HOLMES: 2014. What is relevant for our present purposes is 7 I was taking you to the 2009 website to describe GL 8 Biochem back in 2009. 9 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 10 MR HOLMES: That's when they had the good manufacturing 11 practice, GMP. I took you to that page to show what GMP 12 stood for because that appears not to have changed, but 13 then my friend does make a point that that's GL Biochem 14 today. If you go to page 269 - this is not from GL 15 Biochem, but those instructing me had access to a program 16 which enabled you to go back in time to find out what was 17 on the web at that particular date. 18 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 19 MR HOLMES: So 269 is a Peptides Lab website relating to 20 Thymosin Beta-4, but if you look to the header of that 21 document on its side you will see "February 5, 2012". Do 22 you see that black entry? So that website is in fact a 23 recent search on the net, but because of the program you 24 can go back to what the website was at a particular point 25 in time and now that Mr Grace has - - - 26 CHAIRMAN: What website has this come off? 27 MR HOLMES: That's come off Peptide Labs. 28 CHAIRMAN: How do they tie in with the - - - 29 MR HOLMES: What we will do now is we will go and get the GL 30 Biochem website and backdate it to the relevant time. 31 MR NORTON: Can I just enquire from Mr Holmes as to who put in

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 138 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 the entry at the top of that page, if it is held on its 2 side, "Peptide Labs website, 5 February 2012"? 3 MR HOLMES: The website says 5 February 2012. You see on the 4 header line on the right-hand side there is "September, 5 February, April". 6 CHAIRMAN: Anyway, I think it's sufficient that the record will 7 note that the evidence is objected to and the basis on 8 which objection is taken. 9 MR GRACE: Can I just highlight one thing that this page 10 reveals on 269. This is the danger of relying upon 11 websites and this page highlights it pretty starkly. You 12 haven't read this yet, but you will see in Dr Handelsman's 13 report there is a specific comment about whether Thymosin 14 Beta-4 is the same as TB500 and he says they are 15 completely different. One is an analogue of the other. 16 They are two separate drugs. Here you have a website that 17 is passing off TB500 as being Thymosin Beta-4. 18 I just raise it now because it just highlights 19 the dangers of treating as verbatim truth what is 20 contained on a website. 21 MR HOLMES: I hear what my friend says. 22 CHAIRMAN: The record will reflect what Mr Grace has put to us 23 and that's a matter obviously that the Tribunal will take 24 into account in determining what use, if any, it makes of 25 this evidence. 26 MR HOLMES: When Mr Charter was in China or on that trip that 27 he left on 26 November 2011, he visited GL Biochem and 28 this is one of the cases where the newspapers have been 29 able to talk to the witness, but if you go to page 687 of 30 AS-3, the first volume. 31 CHAIRMAN: Yes. This is something from The Australian

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 139 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 newspaper. 2 MR GRACE: We object to this. 3 CHAIRMAN: Yes. It's in the same category as the other 4 material that's going to be put before the Tribunal in 5 relation to Mr Charter, so at this stage it is in the same 6 category as being marked for identification. It's not 7 evidence that the Tribunal has accepted at this stage or 8 received, but you can take us to it and - - - 9 MR HOLMES: It is only the third paragraph. 10 CHAIRMAN: If it remains, it remains. If not, we won't use it. 11 What was the paragraph? 12 MR HOLMES: The third paragraph. The second paragraph is 13 introductory. "Vincent Xu, a global sales manager of GL 14 Biochem, one of the world's largest suppliers of peptides, 15 has revealed to The Australian the details of his dealings 16 with Shane Charter, a self-styled fitness and anti-aging 17 consultant at the centre of the Essendon supplements saga. 18 Mr Xu said that when Mr Charter came to Shanghai in 19 November to visit his sprawling biochemical manufacturing 20 plant he claimed to be the representative of a 21 pharmaceutical company looking to buy peptides for 22 research work." That's all I wish to take from that. 23 Then if we go to 29 November 2011 and if we go to 24 page 191 of that volume, so we are still trekking through 25 it. 26 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 27 MR HOLMES: We see that Mr Hibbert and Mr Dank are still 28 communicating, 29 30 31 On 29 November Mr Hibbert texts to Dank at Essendon

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 140 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Football Club, "Hi, Steve. Could not find any abstracts 2 on the detection of CJC, only on related short-acting 3 growth hormone releasing peptides, GHRPs. The test for 4 GHRP2 is only effective within 20 hours of administration 5 in which a metabolite of GHRP2 can be detected. No GHRP2 6 could be detected. By the date of this abstract August 7 2011 it seems that they still have a lot of work to do to 8 determine other growth hormone releasing peptides in human 9 urine or doping controls. Regards, Darren." 10 So, from the opening words of that email, "Could 11 not find any abstracts on the detection of CJC," it looks 12 as though Mr Dank has been making enquiry of Mr Hibbert 13 about the detectability of growth hormone releasing 14 peptides. 15 If you go down to the abstract, there's a 16 reference there to, "A family of small peptides has 17 reached the focus of doping controls representing a 18 comparably new strategy for cheating sportsmen. These 19 growth hormone releasing peptides, GHRP, are orally active 20 and induce an increased production of endogenous growth 21 hormone. While the established test for exogenous growth 22 hormone fails, the misuse of these prohibited substances 23 remains unrecognised. The present study provides data for 24 the efficient extraction of a variety of known drug 25 candidates, GHRP1, GHRP2, GHRP4, GHRP5, GHRP6, 26 Alexamorelin, Ipamorelin and Hexarelin from human urine 27 with subsequent mass spectrometric detection after liquid 28 separation." 29 There is a reference to the abstract over the 30 page, "Increasing attention because of potential of 31 performance enhancing in elite and non-professional

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 141 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential)

1 be using. If I take you to the text messages in the 2 second volume, AS-4, and I take you to page 92 of the text 3 messages. So, Dank is organising the blood testing of the 4 players on 30 November. He's talking about whether or not 5 there's detectability of growth hormone releasing peptides 6 and at page 92, lines 255 and 256 - - - 7 CHAIRMAN: Collingwood is on? 8 MR HOLMES: TA65. 9 MR GRACE: This is AS what? 10 MR HOLMES: Page 92 of AS-4. 11 CHAIRMAN: That probably illustrates why we are in private. 12 MR HOLMES: TA65, I assume there won't be any dispute, is a 13 patented all-natural plant-based compound which is said to 14 help maintain or rebuild telomeres which diminish as 15 people get older. So they think that by using that 16 product - - - 17 CHAIRMAN: They are getting older but they don't think they 18 are. 19 MR HOLMES: But what's Mr Dank's follow up, he says, "I am 20 planning with Nima" - we know who Nima is. "At the moment 21 we are planning something better." Then GL Biochem sends 22 an email to Mr Charter. Can I take you to the first 23 volume, AS-3, at page 222. At the foot of page 222, this 24 is from Mr Xu on 1 December, "Hi, Shane. I also thank you 25 very much for your time to visit us. It's a great honour. 26 It is really happy to meet you and I'm pleased to hear you 27 are impressed with our corporation. Hope we may create 28 our business at soonest." 29 Over the page the first line is obliterated but 30 I think it reads follows, "We could provide to you in the 31 list as follows." Now, then they set out the product that

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 143 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 they can supply on a monthly basis, the number of grams 2 per month and the US dollar per gram. "There are some 3 things we cannot offer, so I did not give you the price. 4 Appreciate for your understanding. I'll wait for your 5 feedback on this issue accordingly. Have a nice trip back 6 to Australia. Take care." 7 You will see on page 222 there is the "Shane 8 Charter, Dr Ageless" order of 8 December. But can I take 9 you to other documents which fill in the period between 10 1 December and 8 December. If I could go to Mr Charter's 11 transcript. It is the interview of Mr Charter, AS-7. 12 CHAIRMAN: Court book B1. This is all subject to the objection 13 that Mr Grace has made, so we are not receiving it at this 14 stage. It is marked for identification. Which tab? 15 MR HOLMES: It is AS-4. 16 CHAIRMAN: It's not the transcripts of interview. 17 MR HOLMES: No. It is page 29 of exhibit AS-4. 18 CHAIRMAN: Yes, it's one we looked at earlier. 19 MR HOLMES: It is the last two bullet points. So he has now 20 returned to Australia on 2 December, and I quote, 21 "I provided the peptides ordered by Dank to Nima Alavi to 22 be compounded. As far as I'm aware, Dank then collected 23 the peptides from Nima Alavi. I was paid by Nima Alavi 24 for the peptides. I'm unaware if Nima received any 25 payment from Dank." 26 Then if we go back to AS-3 at page 207. 27 CHAIRMAN: That was the one we were looking at before. 28 MR HOLMES: That's the one we were looking at before. That's 29 on 5 December. I just note that in the chronology that's 30 where that fits in, that reply at page 207. 31 If we come then to 222, which is 8 December.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 144 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Mr Charter emails Mr Xu at GL Biochem and places an order 2 of two grams per month of GHRP6, $560 US. CJC-1295 3 non-modified, half a gram, $750. Melanotan II, one gram 4 for 400. He doesn't order SARMs S22. He doesn't order 5 Thymosin. He doesn't order IGF-1. He doesn't order 6 AOD-1296. He orders half a gram of Mechano Growth Factor 7 and he orders 0.25 of a gram of Thymosin Beta-4. "Can you 8 confirm this is the best price and you are able to courier 9 this to my Shanghai local address in an esky with ice 10 packs please? Which courier do you use to send to 11 Australia? Send me an invoice and I will have this paid." 12 If we go to the statement in exhibit AS-4, page 13 30, Mr Charter says, and this is at the top of page 30, 14 the statement at the beginning of AS-4, "I have never 15 provided Dank with Thymosin Alpha. I have only ever 16 provided Thymosin Beta-4." So the order there is for 17 Thymosin Beta-4. 18 Biochem responded that same day. If you look on 19 page 221 he says, "Hi Shane" - - - 20 CHAIRMAN: 221 of? 21 MR HOLMES: Of AS-3. At 221, "Glad to get your mail and order 22 so soon. I believe you are satisfied with our sample 23 qualification result, right? For this file" - - - 24 MR NORTON: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman. I'm not sure whether that 25 was read correctly. As I heard Mr Holmes, he said "with 26 our sample qualification". 27 MR HOLMES: "Out", "without". 28 CHAIRMAN: "Without sample qualification". That's the way it 29 reads, yes. 30 MR HOLMES: I perhaps suggest the "t" should have been an "r". 31 If I can continue, "I would like to ask you to sign a

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 145 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 statement before the process of our collaboration. As 2 I mentioned when we meet, you may sign and stamp it, then 3 scan it and mail back to me. Is that okay? We could move 4 to the next step of the first deal. Appreciate your 5 collaboration and understanding. Best regards, Vince Xu, 6 global sales manager, GL Biochem." 7 To confirm that he's placing a peptide order that 8 day, can I go to the text messages on page 10 at line 182. 9 CHAIRMAN: That's AS-4. 10 MR HOLMES: The text message on 8 December. 11 CHAIRMAN: Line? 12 MR HOLMES: 182. Shane Charter sends a text to Nima Alavi, 13 "Want to place the peptide order today. Just need to 14 confirm the sequence for the SARM S22." 15 Then we go back to 9 December and Mr Charter 16 emails the requested authority to Mr Xu at page - - - 17 CHAIRMAN: That will be AS-3, I would think. 18 MR HOLMES: I'm looking at the authority now which is referred 19 to in the email on page 220. At the foot of page 220 20 there's an email 9 December from Shane Charter to Mr Xu, 21 or from Shane Charter which looks as though it has gone to 22 Mr Xu. "Peptides. I have attached the signed authority 23 form. Please confirm the order and generate an invoice 24 that I can pay electronically. Regards, Shane Charter." 25 If you go to 210 you see the signed authority 26 form. It's headed "Commitments". I quote, "I and my 27 affiliation/employer are quite clear that all your 28 products have been" - I think the word "restricted" is 29 half cut off - "to laboratory research purposes excluding 30 clinical research on human body and labelling or any other 31 means. They cannot be applied to human usage without

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 146 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 proper handling and some" - I think it should be 2 "appropriate registration and approval. You have our 3 commitments as follows. The products outsourced to your 4 company will not be directly applied for usage" - I think 5 the word is "on human body without appropriate 6 requirements satisfied and precautionary measures, if 7 applicable, will be adopted to ensure that the products 8 will not be used improperly by third party during the 9 process of disposal" - I think that should be "transfer or 10 the like. My affiliation/employer and/or I will take all 11 responsibilities caused by the" - I think that's "improper 12 usage of the products by ourselves or any third party. 13 8 December, Dr Ageless Pty Ltd." 14 CHAIRMAN: So this was the document that Xu wanted him to 15 provide before Xu would supply. 16 MR HOLMES: Supply him with the peptides. 17 CHAIRMAN: So this document is in effect to comfort Xu insofar 18 as the use is concerned of what he is going to supply. 19 MR HOLMES: Yes, that's page 221, "I would like you to sign a 20 statement before the process of our collaboration." 21 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 22 MR HOLMES: "Then we can move to the next step of the first 23 deal." Then at 220 he says, "I have attached the signed 24 authority form." 25 CHAIRMAN: We might take a short break, Mr Holmes. 26 (Short adjournment.) 27 CHAIRMAN: All right, Mr Holmes. We were at 9 December, A-3, 28 220 and 210. 29 MR HOLMES: The email with signed authority, and that prompted 30 the email which appears at the foot of page 219 on 31 9 December where he says, "Hi, Shane. Thank you for your

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 147 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 collaboration on the statement issue. Please check the 2 enclosed pro forma invoice. You may find our bank 3 information in it and you may try wiring transfer to our 4 account and I'll keep you notified once we" - then there's 5 a line missing which we don't have. 6 CHAIRMAN: Yes, probably "once we get it" or something like 7 that. 8 MR HOLMES: That pro forma invoice is found at page 212. What 9 he has ordered, and strangely he doesn't include SARM S22. 10 He has ordered GHRP6, CJC-1295, Melanotan 2, Mechano 11 Growth Factor and there's the Thymosin Beta-4, 0.25 grams. 12 Then at page 219, on 10 December Mr Charter 13 responds by saying, "Attached is the wire transfer 14 receipt. Please confirm the dispatch to Shanghai office." 15 And the wire transfer receipt is at page 211. 211 is a 16 Commonwealth Bank international money transfer on 17 9 December and it's US $285 because the pro forma invoice 18 which is the following page, 212, is also US $285. 19 Then if we go back to 218 Mr Xu says, "Hi, Shane. 20 Thank you and we will update you when we get payment from 21 our account. Please provide the detailed delivery 22 address." 23 Could I then just break from that and go back to 24 the text messages. The text message is at page 34. On 25 11 December, line 44, Charter is texting Dank, "Have a 26 meeting with Laurie and Dr Simon on Monday at 11 if you 27 are about at Flinders Lane office." Dank texts 28 Charter - - - 29 CHAIRMAN: Sorry, what was that? That was page 34. 30 MR HOLMES: Page 34, line 44. 31 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I have it, thank you.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 148 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 MR HOLMES: On the 11th. So Charter is now wanting to contact 2 Dank. Then Dank responds and says, "Hi mate. I am on the 3 Gold Coast from this afternoon for a week for football. 4 I will ring you later this afternoon." Then line 46, 5 "Okay buddy." Then Charter talks to Dank, "Got the 6 sequence for SARM and IGF-1 on your return and we will go 7 over the peptide business model." 8 Can I take you then in the text messages to page 9 329. Dank has Charter's message and he sends it, at line 10 159, to Ed van Spanje. "Hi, mate. Text from Shane. All 11 ready to go." Then it's, "Got the sequence for the SARM 12 and IGF-1 on your return and we will go over the peptide 13 business model." Those texts were accompanied by a 14 telephone call. If you go to page 30 in that same volume 15 of the statements, AS-4. We are in part 2. 16 CHAIRMAN: Part A, section 2. 17 MR HOLMES: Yes. On page 30 there's a heading "Sheraton 18 Mirage. I have been asked to clarify the dates I stayed 19 at the Sheraton Mirage Resort in 2011. In the presence of 20 ASADA investigators I telephoned Sheraton Mirage. I 21 checked the reservation desk and was informed I stayed at 22 the Mirage from 13 to 19 December. I travelled to the 23 hotel with my wife, Donna, and children. From memory 24 I arrived at the hotel on the morning of the 13th and we 25 went to the pool whilst we waited for our room to be 26 prepared. On 11 December I had sent Dank an SMS to try 27 and confirm a meeting with him on 12 December. I received 28 an SMS from Dank stating, 'Hi, mate. I am on the Gold 29 Coast from this afternoon for a week for football. I will 30 ring you later in the afternoon.' Dank telephoned me and 31 invited me to come up to the Essendon pre-season camp. He

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 149 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 said it would be a great business opportunity. I had two 2 to three face-to-face meetings with Dank on the first two 3 days after arriving at the hotel. During a meeting on the 4 13th Dank asked me 'How is the order looking?' I told him 5 it was in Nima's hands, who was compounding the peptides. 6 Dank told me that he needed Hexarelin by the time they get 7 back to Melbourne. When he said 'they' I took this to 8 mean the Essendon Football Club and Dank was intending to 9 use the Hexarelin on the players. On 13 December 10 I received a text message from Dank which stated Hexarelin 11 3 mg/ml and 20 ml times 60. During my first meeting with 12 Dank at the Sheraton Mirage he was pushing me to confirm 13 that Collingwood Football Club was using human growth 14 hormones. Dank said to me that Hird did not believe this 15 was happening at Collingwood and Dank basically wanted me 16 to tell Hird this was a fact. I was uncomfortable with 17 Dank asking me to do this. I had no information to 18 support what Dank was alleging about Collingwood. Dank 19 said to me, 'I have got to get this peptide program over 20 the line. It will give us an advantage. We should be 21 using peptides.' Dank had already placed his peptide 22 order with me in September. It was my belief that Dank 23 was going to implement a wide-ranging supplement program 24 which included peptides and was trying to obtain the 25 approval from head coach, James Hird. Dank was aware that 26 I had a previous relationship with Hird and was relying 27 upon this to gain approval from Hird." 28 If you go to page 303 of AS-3, which is the 29 first book, part A, section 1. The document actually 30 starts at page 297. This is a document from Charter 31 entitled "Steve Dank". Just to recap, 297 - sorry, it is

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 150 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 a document from Steve Charter headed "Steve Dank". On 2 page 297 there's - - - 3 CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, this document, how did it come into 4 existence, do you know? Obviously it's a statement about 5 Dank, what, provided to someone at ASADA? 6 MR HOLMES: These pages from 297 to 303 is a document provided 7 by Mr Charter to the ASADA investigators. 8 CHAIRMAN: So he prepared the document and provided it to them. 9 MR HOLMES: And sent it in. 10 CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you. 11 MR GRACE: This should be treated in the same category - - - 12 CHAIRMAN: It is subject to objection. It is in the same 13 category as the other statements. 14 MR HOLMES: Another copy will be put into the Charter folder. 15 CHAIRMAN: I understand that. You want to take us to it as 16 part of this chronology. 17 MR HOLMES: Yes. I think on page 297, about a quarter of the 18 way down the page, there is another version of that first 19 meeting with Mr Dank. In the middle of the page is the 20 reference to a doctor at Bondi called Michael Zacharia and 21 that he was in some trouble. Then about three-quarters of 22 the way down, "Mr Dank shrugged his shoulders without a 23 care and said 'well, that's his problem.'" So that 24 explains the reference in the file notes to Mr Zacharia 25 and the newspaper article, just by way of background. 26 Then if we go over to page 299. Just above the 27 photo there, "Next we needed a quality raw material, so I 28 booked a trip to China, spent weeks assessing factories 29 from Shenzhen to Shanghai. I finally found one that had 30 an American founder and GMP facility and could provide the 31 range we needed and the quality. The amount of stock this

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 151 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 company had was staggering. Barrels of raw materials 2 stacked to the ceilings." 3 CHAIRMAN: These presumably are photographs of the raw 4 materials. 5 MR HOLMES: Of the peptides, the raw materials. "The amount of 6 mailouts mainly to America of their peptides was also 7 quite staggering. This gave me a real insight into the 8 size of the market. There were about 50 orders going out 9 that day and some of the packs were up to 50,000 US in 10 size, so I knew I was in the right place, but to be sure 11 I had to take samples out of each of the drums and run my 12 own testing use their equipment. The fact that they 13 allowed me to run whatever tests I liked meant they were 14 confident in the product. They provided me with 15 certificates of analysis but to be 100 per cent you really 16 need to test each batch yourself. Then I took the amount 17 I required out of the test drum and sealed this so it 18 couldn't be tampered with." 19 MR GRACE: Can I call upon those certificates of analysis, 20 please? We have not been provided with those. 21 MR HOLMES: The certificates of analysis that we do have - - - 22 MR GRACE: No, the ones that - - - 23 MR HOLMES: They have been provided, but Mr Charter won't speak 24 to us. 25 CHAIRMAN: No. This is referring to certificates that Charter 26 says he was provided with. Charter may not have provided 27 them to you; I don't know. 28 MR HOLMES: The ones that we have been provided with are in 29 this bundle, but they relate to a later point in time and 30 some are in different forms. But I'm not sure if 31 Mr Hargreaves took the opportunity of making the same

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 152 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 request directly to Mr Charter. If they did, can I call 2 upon those. 3 CHAIRMAN: One way or another we might get them. 4 MR GRACE: This raises an important point, sir. I don't want 5 to lose the - - - 6 CHAIRMAN: I think he is saying they haven't got them. 7 MR GRACE: Yes, I know. But it is really important to note the 8 reliance that was placed a few minutes ago on the 9 statement made by Charter that he provided something to 10 Alavi. The text messages in December, prior to any 11 payment being received and acknowledged by GL Biochem, 12 which had to precede any delivery of any substances other 13 than perhaps some samples, there's text messages talking 14 about compounding by Alavi in December and these are 15 relied upon as being the sources of some of these 16 substances. 17 So the juxtaposition of all of this has to be 18 very carefully analysed because on page 29 and 30, which 19 is the Charter statement dated 26 July 2013, and Mr Holmes 20 read this out, on page 30, on the fifth dot point, "During 21 a meeting of 13 December Dank asked me 'How's the order 22 looking' and I told him that it was in Nima's hands who 23 was compounding the peptides." 24 The peptides hadn't been received when that text 25 message that's relied upon was sent. So the point I'm 26 making is that, when one comes to analyse the receipt of 27 the Charter documentation, one has to be very circumspect 28 about what he is saying because of the inherent 29 contradictions between text messages, statements, the 30 bundle of emails and the wire transfers, the delivery of 31 the peptides to the Shanghai office of Charter and then

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 153 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 the ultimate courier delivery of them which you will hear 2 about shortly. 3 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thanks, Mr Grace. The record will reflect 4 that and no doubt these are matters that you will raise in 5 terms of the reliability of Mr Charter in terms of any 6 evidence that's put before the Tribunal by him by way of 7 statements. 8 MR HOLMES: I was going to page 303 because this is where - - - 9 CHAIRMAN: This is still part of the statement. 10 MR HOLMES: Still part of this statement, but at about a 11 quarter of the way down the page, "This picture of Steve 12 Dank was further completed when my family and I attended 13 the pre-season training camp with Essendon at Port Douglas 14 Sheraton Mirage for a week, 14 December. We had barely 15 settled in when Steve was over on a lounge chair next to 16 us talking about how Collingwood have reportedly been 17 using HGH with certain players. As he knew my knowledge 18 in this area was great he quizzed me on who it might be 19 and did Dr Ageless supply them, et cetera. Then James 20 Hird came over and led with a smirk and said, 'Here's 21 trouble, you two blokes together. What are you talking 22 about?' He must have had a previous discussion with James 23 about this because he merely said that he was trying to 24 get confirmation on the issue we are up against at 25 Collingwood. James replied, 'Is it true then?' I have a 26 lot of contacts on both sides of the fence and I heard 27 certain players were taking certain products and as I was 28 considered an authority on the subject was often asked by 29 third parties hypothetical questions. 'If an AFL player 30 wanted to take HGH and didn't want to get caught, how 31 should he do it' or, even more incriminating, 'A friend of

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 154 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 mine has been on a cycle of HGH and he's in the AFL. How 2 long is it until he is cleared for testing?' Such 3 discussions are considered hearsay, meaning they are not 4 actual evidence of any wrongdoing. However, for me to be 5 asked such questions, not just once or twice, does raise 6 an eyebrow. But in answer to James and Steve's question 7 I had no direct evidence. I was happy to pass on the 8 hearsay evidence and let them make of it what they will. 9 This of course was enough of a doubt in their mind to 10 convince them other clubs were crossing the line. 11 Immediately the discussion turned to what Essendon can do 12 to keep up with the rest of them and not fall further 13 behind. Steve started going through all the possible 14 scenarios of cutting-edge peptides and supplements and he 15 stated specific peptides, asking me to confirm the 16 effectiveness and give personal examples of results 17 achieved with them. James obviously was not up to the 18 products being discussed and asked a colleague, 'Where is 19 Reidy?', referring to Bruce Reid. James then cut Steve 20 short and was quite clear and articulate. 'We need to get 21 results this year. We need to improve on last year. 22 I will do whatever it takes. However, I never put the 23 long-term health of any player at risk with supplements 24 they take. Even if they did get them to perform better on 25 the field, never can we use a supplement that is banned, 26 even if we could get away with it. So if you tell me that 27 these two criteria can be met, then we can explore these 28 peptides you are talking about.' Steve went on to assure 29 James that the peptides are clearly not banned and have 30 been used in his rugby past. He also added that 'Shane 31 will be scouring the world to ensure we only get the best

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1 still have not get it. I think it will take some days for 2 the transfer." 3 Then on 16 December, page 214, Xu in the middle 4 of the page, Friday the 16th at 1605, "Hi, Shane. Sorry, 5 still have no news for the payment arriving. Fiona called 6 me and I think it is possible for you to pay in CNY in the 7 future and it could make the process pretty faster. 8 Please confirm the updated quotation in Chinese yuan as 9 follows: Hexarelin 5 grams, renminbi 4630 per gram in 10 stock." 11 There is then another schedule. Then the payment 12 hadn't arrived and the next entry is on 18 December, a 13 text between Alavi and Dank. 14 CHAIRMAN: What page? Still on 34? 15 MR HOLMES: No, I'm now going to the text messages in volume 16 AS-4. 17 CHAIRMAN: What page on that one, Mr Holmes? 18 MR HOLMES: The page on that is page 16 of the text messages. 19 MR GRACE: Could I just enquire of Mr Holmes whether he is 20 relying upon the box containing the products and the 21 months and the prices on that 16 December email, page 214. 22 MR HOLMES: This is an email which has been provided by 23 Mr Charter. We put it before the Tribunal as a document 24 which confirms that there is still no news for the payment 25 arriving. The box below, that's not what was paid for; 26 that's a different order. 27 CHAIRMAN: But you are using it for the purposes of showing 28 that a payment hadn't been made at that point. 29 MR HOLMES: That's correct. I think Mr Grace wants - renminbi, 30 yes. That refers to substances which we don't say are 31 provided. For example, there is a reference to Thymosin

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 157 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 there. Do you see the reference to Thymosin? 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes, I will just go back to 214. 3 MR HOLMES: That was not part of the order and it's not part of 4 the ones that were delivered. It is part of the 5 communication. We are not going to say - - - 6 CHAIRMAN: You are not relying upon it for that purpose. 7 MR GRACE: There is some confusion, sir. If you go back to 8 page 223 you will see the original box which is expressed 9 in US dollars. 10 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 11 MR GRACE: The one in 214 is in renminbi, which is the Chinese 12 currency. 13 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 14 MR GRACE: But it's strange that that's there in that context, 15 bearing in mind the box on 222. 16 MR HOLMES: The order that we are concerned about is the order 17 at page 212. This is merely, I guess, an indicative 18 Chinese yuan or renminbi price per gram and the monthly 19 supply schedule. It's not part of the order. 20 CHAIRMAN: But the one you are relying on is at 212. 21 MR HOLMES: Yes. 22 CHAIRMAN: Which is headed "Pro forma invoice". 23 MR HOLMES: Yes, and it's the US$2,835 which he got the quote 24 for and which he organised the finance for. Then the only 25 thing that he had to organise additional finance for was 26 for the Hexarelin which was added to the order. 27 CHAIRMAN: Okay. We are at page 16, I think. 28 MR HOLMES: Yes, page 16. This is line 35. So on 18 December 29 Alavi is texting Dank, "Hi, Steve. Regarding the player 30 enhancement packs I was preparing for pick up today 31 there's been a delay of one of the key ingredients.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 158 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 Should be ready by tomorrow morning. If you can't make it 2 I can express post the packs to you." That's at 3 18 December. Dank replies, line 36, "That is okay, mate." 4 Could I take you to 461 of the text messages. 5 CHAIRMAN: That can't be right. We have run out. 6 MR HOLMES: 461 of the first volume, sorry. 461 is another 7 document provided by Mr Charter to Sharon Kerrison, who 8 you will recall is the ASADA investigator, and the subject 9 is "Hexarelin". "Go to the SMS from me to Cedric," and 10 that's on 19 December. "Email is good for the peptide 11 order. Can we pay the 735 to peptide company to complete 12 the order?" That's the additional one gram of Hexarelin. 13 At the foot of the page there's a request from 14 Sharon Kerrison to Dr Ageless, "Hi, Shane. Can you send 15 me any correspondence including the text that you had with 16 Cedric 17 18 If we go in the same volume to page 224. The 19 funds have now cleared. Anthony has settled the 20 outstanding account for the Hexarelin. Charter obtains a 21 certificate of analysis for the Mechano Growth Factor MGF 22 issued by GL Biochem on the 20th. You will see on that 23 page there is a certificate of analysis which Charter has 24 provided. If you go to 212 there's the Mechano Growth 25 Factor and it is a GL Biochem certificate of analysis for 26 one of the substances in the order. 27 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Okay. 28 MR GRACE: Could I call for the original of that, please? 29 MR HOLMES: I think my instructions are we only have 30 photocopies of this. 31 CHAIRMAN: Okay. That can be checked. If the original is

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 159 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 available it can be produced, otherwise we will work off a 2 copy. 3 MR GRACE: Dangerous, as you will see. 4 CHAIRMAN: Nothing will surprise me in this case, Mr Grace. 5 MR HOLMES: We might be surprised if we are not given notice of 6 what that is. 7 CHAIRMAN: Anyway, your instructions are - - - 8 MR HOLMES: I call for any copies of the certificate of 9 analysis on page 224. 10 MR GRACE: We don't have any. 11 CHAIRMAN: They don't have any, and your instructions are that 12 you haven't got the original. 13 MR HOLMES: No, we only provided what Mr Charter provided to 14 us. 15 MR GRACE: I was referring to another certificate of analysis, 16 sir. 17 MR HOLMES: I call for the certificate of analysis that my 18 friend was referring to that is coming as a surprise. 19 MR GRACE: It is in your materials at page 280 and 281. 20 MR HOLMES: All right. We then go to page 195. On page 195 we 21 have what appear to respond to the player enhancement 22 packs which are dispensed by Como pharmacy on 21 December; 23 40 of the high dose co-enzyme and 40 of the multivitamin. 24 Then there's an invoice for those packs which Mr Dank was 25 texting to Mr Alavi. There's an account totalling at the 26 end of the month 5,937. 27 Next, could I go back to 461 and the second SMS 28 on that page which is on 29 December. 29 CHAIRMAN: We are back on the texts? 30 MR HOLMES: No, AS-3. 31 CHAIRMAN: 461.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 160 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 MR HOLMES: 461. It's a text which Mr Charter has sent 2 Ms Kerrison on the 29th. 3 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 4 MR HOLMES: It says, "The peptides were delivered 3.30 pm 5 yesterday." It's a text from Charter to Nima, Nima Alavi 6 at Como. So the package was delivered, we would infer, on 7 the 28th. Now, what does Mr Alavi do with these peptides 8 that were delivered to him? If we go to page 11 of the 9 texts we will see at line 202, Charter to Alavi, 10 Hexarelin. 11 CHAIRMAN: Page 11? 12 MR HOLMES: Page 11. 13 CHAIRMAN: 202. 14 MR HOLMES: Yes. Why don't I just go three lines above that. 15 That's 199. He got those texts from two sources. One is 16 by email from Mr Charter and the other one, we got the 17 same text as part of our downloading of text messages. So 18 Mr Charter's sending a text message by email is confirmed 19 by it appearing also in the text messages on page 11 at 20 199. It's the same text message. It says, "The peptides 21 were delivered 3.30 yesterday. Have you got them?" 22 Then at 202 Charter and Alavi speak or text on 23 the 30th. Then on the 31st, "Hexarelin, 3 mgs per ml. 24 Can we make up the whole 3 grams?" Then also, "GHRP6, 25 about 400 to 500 ml." Alavi to Charter, "I'll get 26 cracking. I don't think it's going to be possible if 27 anything goes wrong. Limited time and sterile and 28 potentially a big contract if we get this right isn't a 29 good mix. I'll report back as soon as possible. Did 30 Steve want to pick up today or we re-open on Tuesday?" 31 Charter to Alavi, "I told him we can do what we can do.

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 161 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 No promises. If ready would pick up Tuesday. So let it 2 sit until then to check it hasn't gone cloudy or 3 anything." Nima Alavi to Shane Charter, line 205, "Sounds 4 good." 5 Then we have in the course of investigation 6 contacted other suppliers and found that Mr Dank also 7 approached an organisation called Medivet. This is in the 8 first volume, AS-3, at page 706. The first statement from 9 there is, "Luke O'Connor contacted the business 10 development manager of Medivet who confirmed that Medivet 11 has no records of any products ever being supplied to 12 Dank. But the previous employee, Gary Andrews, who dealt 13 with ASADA in January, was no longer employed. So the 14 ASADA officer then contacted Gary Andrews, who confirmed 15 with me that in about January 2012 he was contacted by 16 Stephen Dank, who was trying to source products from 17 Medivet, but Mr Andrews advised that at no stage did 18 Medivet provide Mr Dank with any products." 19 The reason we made that enquiry, gentlemen, if 20 you go to the text messages, page 306, line 30, these are 21 text messages between Hibbert and Dank. Hibbert normally 22 seems to supply the technical information about peptides. 23 But at line 30 he's talking to Dank about Thymosin from 24 Medivet, "Phone numbers available from their website, NSW 25 and Victoria." So that's what caused us to go to Medivet. 26 Now could I move to 8 January. 27 CHAIRMAN: 2012. 28 MR HOLMES: 8 January 2012, and I'm going to page 11 and I'm 29 starting at line - AS-4. 30 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 31 MR HOLMES: If we go to page 11 at line 212. So the

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 162 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 instruction on 31 December from Charter to Alavi was to 2 make up the whole three grams. Here at line 212 on page 3 11, "Will we have the Hexarelin mixed up by end of 4 Monday?" Alavi to Charter, "Should have. I'll let you 5 know when it's done." Charter to Alavi, "Cool. Steve 6 will be ringing me again to check so I will tell him to 7 hang off till end of day." 215, Charter to Alavi, "I will 8 call him first thing Monday when he is in the office." 9 Alavi to Charter, "No worries. Let me know about the 10 Sildenafil and Tafalafil when you find out." 11 Then if you go over to page 12, Charter and Alavi 12 continue to text about Hexarelin and Dank and Alavi. If 13 you go to 217, on 9 January, "Did we get it done," Charter 14 asking Alavi. Alavi asking Charter, "Hi, Shane. Had a 15 chat to Steve. He's picking it up tomorrow morning." 16 There's reference to the other product. 17 The next one is on page 16, line 37. This is on 18 9 January, Alavi to Dank, "Steve, I'm re-formulating the 19 hex. It will be in line with the clinical trial I sent 20 you. Come past around 9.30 and it should be ready." So at 21 that stage - - - 22 MR GRACE: What line is that, sorry? 23 CHAIRMAN: 37, Mr Grace. 24 MR HOLMES: 37, yes. That's the 9th. If we go to page 197 in 25 the first volume, the Hexarelin having been made up and 26 Mr Dank picking it up, at page 197 there is a page which, 27 gentlemen, you will be looking at over and over again. 28 197 is the start of a three-page document that somebody 29 has written "attention Irene 1/3", the next page "2/3" and 30 "3/3". It is received on 11 April. There is a "received" 31 stamp on page 197. So Como has sent a document which was

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 163 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 received on 11 April, and on 10 January a customer - do 2 you see there's an opening balance of 5,937 which is on 3 page 195. 4 CHAIRMAN: Last statement. 5 MR HOLMES: The first statement is 194. That's the November 6 one. 7 CHAIRMAN: 5,937. Balance 5,937. This document is dated 8 31 January 2012. 9 MR HOLMES: As is the previous document. 10 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 11 MR HOLMES: All I point to at this stage, and I see the time, 12 is on 10 January, it was a statement for Essendon Football 13 Club and there was an entry for the Hexarelin on 14 10 January. I should also draw to your attention that on 15 the second page of that document, on the right-hand side, 16 page 198, the Hexarelin was re-credited. Do you see that, 17 gentlemen? 18 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 19 MR GRACE: It was credited on the first page. 20 CHAIRMAN: 3,360. 21 MR HOLMES: No, no. The Hexarelin was 10 January. Do you see 22 that? 23 CHAIRMAN: I'm just looking at the second page of the 24 statement. 25 MR HOLMES: 2/3. 26 CHAIRMAN: Yes, Hexarelin. 27 MR HOLMES: Mr Chair, on the first page there is a reference to 28 "RX21893, date dispensed or dispatched 10 January. 14 29 Hexarelin." 30 CHAIRMAN: I'll just pick that up. I have it. 4,200. 31 MR HOLMES: It is the RX21893, and the date dispensed

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 164 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 10 January. 2 CHAIRMAN: Yes. 3 MR HOLMES: If you go over to 14 February you will see there 4 the $4,200 with a minus 1 and there is the same "RX21893 5 date dispensed 10 January 2012". 6 CHAIRMAN: Yes. Then it's shown as a credit. 7 MR HOLMES: Yes. So he has made up the Hexarelin; he has 8 delivered it to Dank or Dank has collected it; they have 9 sent the bill to Essendon Football Club. They have said 10 the customer is MRC or ICB. I think we have spoken about 11 the Medical Rejuvenation Clinic. Anyway, if that's a 12 convenient time. 13 CHAIRMAN: It is. 14 MR NORTON: Mr Chair, there was a matter I intended to raise 15 immediately after the lunch break. It relates to the 16 court book. Prior to the commencement of this hearing 17 this week we had been served a considerable amount of 18 documents and in particular tranches that come in four 19 tranches that was in a very different order and form to 20 that which has been provided now. We have only been given 21 one hard copy. We have asked for additional hard copies. 22 We have asked both orally and in writing. That's been 23 declined. 24 We have gone to the trouble and expense of 25 printing out all the other stuff that was served by disk. 26 In my submission as a matter of fairness an additional 27 hard copy of this document, which is obviously the road 28 map that the Tribunal is going to be guided by, ought be 29 provided by ASADA to me for use by counsel and instructing 30 solicitors in the proceeding. 31 CHAIRMAN: I'm just trying to understand. You have printed off

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 165 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 the disk which contains the documents that were produced 2 in the tranches. So you have those documents. What you 3 are saying is that it's the same documents but they are 4 being presented in a different format; is that it? 5 MR NORTON: Very different. The books are set up in a 6 particular way. There is pagination where the others 7 don't have it. It is a completely different sort of 8 structure. Plainly this is what the Tribunal will be 9 looking to and submissions made to and so on when 10 witnesses are cross-examined, submissions are made and so 11 on. We don't have the benefit of perhaps the funding 12 regime that others may. There has been a considerable 13 expense gone to already by the printing of material as 14 served. 15 CHAIRMAN: What you are looking for is an additional copy of 16 the documentation that we have been provided with; is that 17 it? 18 MR NORTON: Yes. 19 CHAIRMAN: It means that someone takes the copies that have 20 already been prepared and does an additional copy. 21 MR NORTON: That's so. 22 CHAIRMAN: I think that's a reasonable request, Mr Holmes. I'm 23 not saying it has to be done instantaneously. 24 MR HOLMES: Gentlemen, they were given a hard copy of these 25 documents. They have one. They have one counsel present. 26 They can use that. They were also given in addition to 27 the tranche documents an electronic copy of the documents 28 in that order so that they can print out as many copies of 29 that in that order as they need. It's within their power. 30 CHAIRMAN: Within the order that we are receiving them? 31 MR HOLMES: In the order that we are receiving them. So we

.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal 166 MR HOLMES 18/12/14 (Confidential) 1 don't see any need for any further privilege to be 2 afforded to them. 3 CHAIRMAN: Can you have a chat about that when we adjourn? 4 MR HOLMES: I think we have and I think, gentlemen, we having 5 given them the documents in a hard copy, having given them 6 in an electronic copy in that order with that numbering, 7 they have it, as many copies as they would like to print 8 off, in addition to the hard copy that we gave them. 9 CHAIRMAN: I don't think the Tribunal really wants to get 10 involved in this. We have enough to contend with. So 11 I think, Mr Norton, it's a matter to work out between you. 12 We will resume at 10 o'clock in the morning. 13 ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, 19 DECEMBER 2014 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31

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