Tuesday Volume 525 15 March 2011 No. 132

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 15 March 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 143 15 MARCH 2011 144

that Tamil people feel part of a renewed Sri Lanka. We House of Commons look to the Government to make good their promises about reconciliation for the future. Tuesday 15 March 2011 Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): The sad experience of everyone from the Tamil community The House met at half-past Two o’clock and those supporting them over the past few years has been that the Government of Sri Lanka are slow to act unless some threat is attached to a requirement for PRAYERS better behaviour. Is there anything that the Minister might do in order to put some sanction behind the [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] words in trying to get the proper things done?

Alistair Burt: I do not think that the right approach is necessarily one of threats, but the Sri Lankan Government Oral Answers to Questions are aware of our continuing concern about the speed with which the country is returning to the proper spirit of reconciliation set out by the Government and, for FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE example, whether the lessons learned in the reconciliation commission will properly engage those from outside in The Secretary of State was asked— an independent manner. Until these things are done, the concerns of Tamils everywhere will not necessarily be settled. Both sides need to be engaged and involved in Sri Lanka the process of reconciliation, but we ask the Sri Lankan 1. Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): What Government to live up to their public commitments. recent reports he has received on the establishment of high-security zones in Sri Lanka. [46093] Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD): Do British and other diplomats, United Nations The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign officials and international non-governmental organisations and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): The number have free access across the whole of Sri Lanka, and, if of high-security zones established over recent years has not, what will our Government do to try to make sure begun to be reduced, but a number still remain, particularly that that is possible? in the north of the country. These zones prevent the return of people to their land. We welcome the reduction Alistair Burt: The short answer is no, they do not. in the number of zones, but we are looking for more Where there is not free access to rehabilitation camps, progress as time goes on. for example, the British Government make it very clear that that must be provided, with proper access for Joan Ruddock: I am most grateful to the Minister for NGOs and for others who wish to see them. Progress that reply. Tamils in my constituency are deeply concerned has been made in this respect. More NGOs have access by reports that as many as 60,000 people have been than in the past, but it is not complete, and the right removed from their homes to make way for the military. hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to raise the matter. Does he agree that peace will be possible in Sri Lanka only if the religious, cultural and human rights of Tamils are respected and the “Sinhalisation” of Tamil UK-Caribbean Relations areas is rejected? 2. Mr David Lammy (Tottenham) (Lab): What recent Alistair Burt: I certainly agree with the right hon. assessment he has made of the state of relations Lady about the need to return more people to their between the UK and the countries of the Caribbean; land. I was in Jaffna very recently, where I was able to and if he will make a statement. [46094] see the damage that had been done over the years of conflict and to speak to some of those who were being The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth resettled. The issue of land rights is very complex, and Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): The Government are we have asked the Sri Lankan Government to consider committed to maintaining and furthering the excellent the experience of others as they seek to try to resolve relationship that we have with the Caribbean. I visited these issues over a lengthy period. Barbados, Trinidad and Tobago and Jamaica in January, Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con): Will the Minister and the Secretary of State for International Development look into reports of atrocities taking place in the north recently announced a 50% increase in DFID’s bilateral of Sri Lanka, including intimidation, murder, rape and aid funding for the Caribbean. other such crimes? Mr Lammy: I am sorry to drag the Minister back to Alistair Burt: Yes. While I was there, reference was the UK. He will recognise that there is concern in the made to an upsurge in crime in December and January; Caribbean that Britain is ceding its relationship with a number of murders had been committed. We raised the Caribbean to the United States, and that many young that with the authorities. Precisely what had sparked it people, particularly where there is growing unemployment, was unclear, but there was no doubt that the atmosphere are turning to things such as basketball instead of cricket. had been very tense over that period. It is very important Will he say more about air passenger duty, which is that Jaffna returns to something like what it was, and imposing high fares on travel to the Caribbean? 145 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 146

Mr Browne: I had the honour of meeting, among Terrorist Organisations others, Sir Garfield Sobers during my trip. I offer the West Indian cricket team best wishes in the world cup, 4. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What recent although I obviously hope that England win. On the reports he has received on the involvement of the right hon. Gentleman’s specific point, any announcement Government of Iran with bodies acting as proxies for on tax will be made in the Budget next week. terrorist organisations; and if he will make a statement. [46096]

Eritrea The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): The latest evidence that Iran continues to supply the Taliban with weaponry is 3. Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): What at odds with Iran’s claim to the international community recent assessment he has made of the political situation and its own people that it supports stability and security in Eritrea; and if he will make a statement. [46095] in Afghanistan. That behaviour is completely unacceptable. We continue to condemn Iranian support for groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah, which pursue an ideology The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign of violence that directly undermines the prospects for and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): We peace in the region. are concerned about the denial of basic rights to Eritrean people, particularly the severe restrictions on political, Graham Evans: Iran has been a prolific sponsor of religious and media freedoms. We welcome the progress terror in Afghanistan against coalition troops. Last towards a resolution of Eritrea’s border dispute with week it was reported that 48 mid-range rockets that Djibouti, but are concerned by its support for opposition were intercepted in Afghanistan had been supplied to groups in Somalia, for which the UN Security Council the Taliban by Iran. What steps are the Government has imposed strong sanctions. taking to combat shipments of weapons and funds from Iran to terror hot spots around the world? Chris Heaton-Harris: The Minister well knows that I Mr Hague: There was indeed a shipment of 122 mm have a constituent who has been detained without charge rockets and a large amount of ammunition. The fact in Eritrea and is currently being denied consular access. that it was intercepted and seized by NATO in Nimruz His wife is very concerned about his whereabouts. I shows that effective measures are being taken. Of course, have been told that nobody has seen him for nearly two we cannot be sure how effective those measures are. We and a half months. What more can the Government do assess that Iran is the most significant provider of to help my constituent and his wife? weapons, training and funding to Hezbollah, as well as supporting the Taliban as this case shows. We have made it clear to the authorities in Tehran that this is Mr Bellingham: I share my hon. Friend’s concerns. completely unacceptable. We will continue to push for By denying consular access to four Britons, Eritrea is in full implementation of the UN resolutions that call for gross breach of a Vienna convention. I have summoned the disarmament of these armed groups and prohibit the Eritrean ambassador on two occasions and our weapons transfers. ambassador in Asmara has made repeated representations to the Foreign Ministry and the Office of the President. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): So far, there has been no response to our efforts. The On 10 March, Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Foreign Secretary has instructed all posts worldwide to Khamenei, said: raise the issue as a matter of priority. We will continue “The fake Zionist government is a cancerous tumour”. to press for consular access to the men at the highest What steps are being taken to deal with Iran’s influence level. on terrorism in Lebanon and Gaza? Mr Hague: I outlined the steps that are being taken in Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): I am sure the Minister response to the previous question. The hon. Lady draws recognises that stability in Eritrea and across the horn attention to another outrageous and unacceptable statement of Africa is vital in the battle against piracy, but there is by the Iranian leadership, which is part of a long line of an immediate crisis. Since the previous Foreign Office such statements about the state of Israel and other questions, a tanker carrying £100 million of oil has been nations in the region. We continue to deliver our protests captured by pirates, several seafarers have been murdered, and to take the practical action I have outlined. and mother ships are sailing far into the Indian ocean. Last month, The Times reported that the terrorist Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): In organisation al-Shabaab has cut a deal with the pirates the context of the very important question of Iran, may for a 20% share of future ransoms. What is the Minister I tell my right hon. Friend that in my memory, since the going to do about it? days of Ernest Bevin, I have never known a Foreign Secretary surrounded simultaneously by so many difficult problems? I want to tell him how much I admire the Mr Bellingham: The shadow Minister makes an coolness and efficiency with which he is dealing with important point. This is a growing challenge and threat, as them. is suggested by the facts that he outlines. It is essential that we have tough action at sea, and the UK is leading the Mr Hague: My hon. Friend is always respected as one international response. We also need a renewed effort to of the wisest Members of the House. The fact that his secure detention and prison facilities in neighbouring recollections go back as far as Ernest Bevin is an countries. I therefore urge all countries in the region to inspiration to us, and the conclusion he draws is an play their part in combating this evil. inspiration to me. 147 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 148

Egypt Mr Hague: Yes, absolutely. The hon. Gentleman raises a vital point. It is extremely important that the development 5. Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): of a democracy and of a more open political system is What recent reports he has received on the progress of not accompanied by increased discrimination and the negotiations between the Government and opposition harassment of minorities in Egypt. Although we must parties in Egypt; and if he will make a statement. respect the fact that we will not be able to ordain what happens in an Egyptian democracy, we can be a positive [46097] influence on it, and that is one of the factors that we must try to influence. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): We welcome the new Prime Minister and his Government in Egypt. Recent Middle East Cabinet changes are a promising step towards the reform that many Egyptians have been calling for. We will 6. Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): What recent continue to urge the interim Government, as the Under- assessment he has made of the UK’s involvement in the Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for middle east peace process; and if he will make a North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), did during his statement. [46098] recent visit, to build trust with opposition groups and involve them in dialogue as the Government develop The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth their reform plans and the timetable for elections. Affairs (Mr William Hague): The United Kingdom will continue to press for progress on the middle east peace Rushanara Ali: Following last week’s debate on UN process. The situation across the middle east demands Women, which recognised the importance of women that, and I discussed progress with President Abbas last playing a full part in post-conflict political processes, week. We want to see a resumption of negotiations what is the Foreign Secretary doing to ensure that based on clear parameters supported by the international women are fully involved in the post-Mubarak political community: 1967 borders with equivalent land swaps, and constitutional process as Egypt moves towards appropriate security arrangements, Jerusalem as the what we all hope will be free and fair elections? capital of both states and a just solution for refugees.

Mr Hague: We are looking to assist in Egypt with the Rachel Reeves: In February, the Israeli Government development of civil society, political parties and electoral removed two checkpoints from the Nablus area. Last processes, through technical advice and by building week, a man was stopped outside Nablus with a bag of links between organisations in Egypt and the UK. That explosives, and this weekend an Israeli family were will of course include a great deal of reference to, and murdered. Will the right hon. Gentleman welcome the experience of, the involvement of women in civil society removal of checkpoints but acknowledge the security and politics in this country. That is one way in which we risks that such decisions entail when abused by those can have a positive influence on Egypt. We cannot who do not want peace? dictate how it constructs a democratic political system, but we can be a major influence on it. Mr Hague: Yes, absolutely—the hon. Lady is quite right to draw attention to that. Of course, it is good Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): What is the position when the security environment improves, but what happened of the UK Government on the legitimacy of Saturday’s in the Israeli settlement near Nablus at the weekend was constitutional referendum, given that many opposition absolutely unacceptable. I issued a statement at the time leaders including Mohamed el-Baradei and Amr Moussa saying: have called on their supporters to vote no to changes “The friends and relatives of the family killed in Itamar have that they regard as something of a charade? my deepest sympathies. This was an act of incomprehensible cruelty and brutality which I utterly condemn.” Mr Hague: These things are of course to be decided in Egypt itself. There has been a tremendous chain of Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Does my right events, which led to the revolution in Egypt. The clear hon. Friend agree that the atrocity at Itamar makes it aspiration of the people of Egypt is to have not only even harder for Prime Minister Netanyahu to advance good economic development but an open and democratic the middle east peace process with the Palestinians, and political system. That will mean the holding of elections, that Members on both sides of the House should utterly and in the view of the interim Government it means the condemn such atrocities? holding of the referendum as well. It is not for us to determine the outcome of that referendum or what Mr Hague: I will go part of the way with my hon. questions are put in it, but it is for us to urge that it is Friend. We should condemn that atrocity across the properly and fairly conducted. We would certainly House, as I think all parties do, but we must not let any encourage the Egyptian authorities to allow international of the recent events in the middle east allow us to draw observers to observe the referendum and the subsequent the conclusion that it has become impossibly harder to elections. pursue the middle east peace process. Indeed, the wider turn of events in the middle east recently, as well as such Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): In the UK Government’s acts of great barbarity, underline the need to get on diplomatic contribution to current considerations in with the peace process, and to give even greater urgency Egypt and to its future governance, will they have to the search for a two-state solution. I hope that that regard to the rights and interests of all minorities there, lesson is drawn by Israeli and Palestinian leaders from including Christians? the wider events in Egypt and other nations. 149 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 150

Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): to increase free trade with other parts of the world, and May I join the Secretary of State in condemning the to cut the cost and complexity of the regulations that appalling murder of the Fogel family last Friday, and Europe imposes on European businesses. associate the Opposition Front Bench with what he said on the implications for the middle east peace process? Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): Does the Foreign Secretary agree that lasting peace Just as the Czech spring presaged the rebirth of democracy requires reconciliation between citizens as well as agreements and liberty in what were known as the eastern European between their Governments? Will he therefore join me countries, can we hope that the European Union, in praising the brilliant work of OneVoice Palestine and particularly the Hungarian presidency, can shine a light OneVoice Israel—brave local citizens who are making on those undergoing similar revolutions now in the the case in parallel for a two-state solution? middle east and adjoining countries?

Mr Hague: The hon. Gentleman underlines what I Mr Lidington: We very much hope so. My right hon. said—that the condemnation of the killings at the weekend Friends the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister is shared across the House—and he makes the powerful have been playing a leading part in those discussions at point that peace in the middle east will be built on European level. We think it is time for the EU to carry contact between citizens and civil society as well as on out an urgent and comprehensive overhaul of its partnership the decisions of political leaders. I certainly join him in policies with regard to the southern Mediterranean congratulating those organisations on their work. We counties. We need to link those much more closely to also urge Israeli and Palestinian leaders to make the economic and political reform in that region. most of that work and to seize the opportunities in the coming weeks to advance the peace process. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): One of the priorities of the presidency must surely be the securing of the EU Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): No doubt border. Has the Minister had any discussions with the the Palestinian Authority has made some genuine progress Hungarian Foreign Minister about the deployment by towards its road map obligations, but has the Foreign Frontex of a rapid border intervention team—RABIT Secretary had a chance to assess the role of the Palestinians force—on the border between Greece and Turkey? He in inciting the sort of attacks that we saw last weekend? will know that 90% of illegal immigration comes through that border, and we need to ensure that the RABIT Mr Hague: I am sure that it is not the Palestinian force is protected and extended, in order to give Greece Authority who incite attacks of that kind, which my as much support as possible. hon. Friend might see if he looks at what Prime Minister Salam Fayyad has done to build the attributes of a Mr Lidington: The right hon. Gentleman makes an Palestinian state on the west bank. The last thing he important point. There are real problems on the Greco- wants is incidents of that kind. Of course, we do not Turkish border that affect migration into the whole of know who incited those events, but I feel confident that the EU. This is a matter to which my right hon. Friend it was not the Prime Minister and the President of the the Home Secretary and my hon. Friend the Minister Palestinian Authority. for Immigration are giving a high priority in their conversations with their European counterparts. Council of Ministers Economic Prospects (EU) 7. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with his Hungarian counterpart on priorities for the Hungarian presidency of the 8. Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): What recent discussions he has had in the General Affairs Council of Ministers of the EU. [46099] Council on economic prospects for the EU; and if he will make a statement. [46100] The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary held a bilateral meeting with Foreign Minister Janos Martonyi on The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I 7 December in London. I speak regularly to the Hungarian regularly take part in such discussions and emphasise Europe Minister, Eniko Gyori, at meetings of both the our view that growth and global competitiveness should General Affairs Council and the Foreign Affairs Council, be the EU’s first priority. and most recently by telephone on 20 January, when we discussed energy policy and innovation priorities. Mr Ruffley: Will the Minister confirm that if the UK was ever to be pressured to join the European stability Toby Perkins: In February, the UK announced more bail-out mechanism, it would require a treaty change, job losses than any other country in the EU. In that and that therefore a referendum would be given to the context, what conversations has the Minister had with British people on that subject? other EU Ministers to assist the UK Government in developing a plan for jobs and growth to replace their Mr Lidington: Membership of the proposed permanent current strategies, which undermine both? European stability mechanism is open only to those countries that are members of the euro and have that as Mr Lidington: We have taken the lead at many meetings their currency. For the UK to join the euro, which of EU Ministers in arguing that Europe should indeed give would be necessary to take part in the ESM, there the highest priority to growth and global competitiveness, would have to be a referendum, provided that the European which means more work to complete the single market, Union Bill becomes law. 151 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 152

Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): It is clear that Friday, EU leaders called on Gaddafi to relinquish some members of the eurozone are unlikely to be able power. They agreed to examine all necessary options to to sustain membership in the long term, but it is unlikely protect the civilian population. I have just returned that member states of the eurozone would suggest such from the G8 meeting of Foreign Ministers in Paris, a thing. However, Britain would be well placed to where we agreed on the need for urgent consideration in suggest that those countries should be given the chance the United Nations Security Council of a wide range of to leave the eurozone and recreate their national currencies. additional measures to protect the Libyan population from attack. Mr Lidington: It is up to the elected Governments of individual countries to decide how to respond to the David Tredinnick: With a view to Benghazi, does my hon. Gentleman’s challenge. However, it is very much in right hon. Friend recall the fate of the Marsh Arabs in the UK’s national interest that the eurozone finds a way Iraq who were encouraged to revolt and then left to to overcome its present problems and achieve financial their fate when Saddam Hussein butchered them? What stability and economic growth. is my right hon. Friend going to do if compliance with the no-fly zone proves to be impossible. Is he happy at Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): The previous the thought that Benghazi will be left to its own devices? Minister for Europe gave away £7 billion of our rebate. Was he sold a pup, or is the current Minister for Europe Mr Hague: Yes, we are very conscious of what has able to claw something back from that spendthrift way happened on previous occasions. The Gaddafi regime of spending our money? has shown its willingness to strike back without compunction at its own civilian population and its Mr Lidington: I think that the previous Minister for ability to take back territory from people who have Europe was sold a pup, although he was not helped by rebelled against his oppressive regime. That is why, as the fact that at the time his Chancellor and Prime my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said yesterday, Minister were not talking to each other, even about the time is of the essence. That is why we have urged figures that they used in those negotiations. I can assure colleagues in the G8 and elsewhere to agree to further my hon. Friend that in the negotiations on the new urgent considerations at the United Nations Security multi-annual financial framework, the Government will Council. Anything we do must, of course, have a clear defend the British rebate, which we believe remains legal base and widespread international support, so my completely justified. hon. Friend must consider things in that light.

Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Given the Glyn Davies: Does my right hon. Friend have confidence importance of the eurozone to Britain, what are the in the sanctions currently in force against Libya? What Government doing to ensure that Britain is not excluded discussions is he having with allies about how to strengthen from decision-making processes that will have a direct those sanctions against Gaddafi and his regime? impact on our economy? Mr Hague: We have widened the restrictive measures Mr Lidington: We are ensuring that we engage fully against individuals close to Gaddafi. We have added the on a bilateral basis with those of our partners who are Libyan central bank and the Libyan investment authority members of the eurozone and with the European to the EU asset freezing list. In so doing, the UK has institutions. We also remain in regular contact with EU increased the total of frozen Libyan assets in this country member states that are not part of the eurozone. I find, from £2 billion to £12 billion. Clearly, these things have from talking to eurozone and non-eurozone members an impact on the regime. We would now like further alike, that there is a common acceptance of and support sanctions to be debated and agreed at the UN in New for the participation of the UK and other non-eurozone York, but I obviously do not want to advertise too members in discussions and decisions about the single much in advance what they might be. market and the direction of European economic policy. There is no wish to relegate us to a side room. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): What other non-violent measures is the Secretary of State Libya considering to put more pressure on Libya? I am thinking of things such as a UN-run escrow account for Libyan 9. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): What recent oil revenues or electronic jamming of all the regime’s steps he has taken in response to the political situation communications. in Libya; and if he will make a statement. [46101] Mr Hague: There is certainly scope to take other 11. Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What non-violent means and the hon. Lady has provided recent steps he has taken in response to the political some examples of it. I believe it is important to discuss situation in Libya; and if he will make a statement. them with our international partners before announcing [46103] them in any detail or giving notice of their coming into effect, but she is quite right to draw attention to the The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth potential for further measures. Affairs (Mr William Hague): The UK is at the forefront of the international effort to isolate the Gaddafi regime, Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire deprive it of money and ensure that anyone responsible South) (Lab): The Foreign Secretary has rightly said that for abuses is held to account. We have taken swift action Libya is in breach of United Nations Security Council in the United Nations Security Council and the UN resolution 1970. He went on to state this morning that Human Rights Council. At the European Council on “not every nation sees eye-to-eye on issues such as a no-fly zone”. 153 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 154

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm whether specific The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth proposals for a no-fly zone were tabled for discussion at Affairs (Mr William Hague): We are working closely the NATO Defence Ministers meeting last Thursday, at with partners, including the United Nations, the European the European Council last Friday or, indeed, at the G8 Union and NATO, to develop contingency plans to Foreign Ministers meeting today? allow the international community to respond quickly and effectively to the developing situation on the ground Mr Hague: When it comes to specific proposals, in Libya. The plans cover a range of options, including NATO is responsible for contingency planning and it is the possible establishment of a no-fly zone. As I have conducting it for specific plans for a no-fly zone. The said, G8 Foreign Ministers have welcomed the recent other meetings were more at the level of political discussion declaration by the Arab League calling for measures to of what is desirable. There are differences of view support and protect the Libyan population. among many countries about this issue. What was agreed by G8 Foreign Ministers this morning was that we Caroline Dinenage: Given that the Arab League and welcomed the recent declaration by the Arab League the Gulf Co-operation Council recently endorsed the calling for a number of measures to protect and support idea of a no-fly zone, would it not be prudent to allow the Libyan population. Clearly, what was called for by them to take the lead while the United Kingdom adopts the Arab League included reference to a no-fly zone. the same policy as the United States of strategic patience? Mr Speaker: I call Caroline Dinenage. Mr Hague: Patience must, of course, be tempered by recognition of the fact that the situation is urgent and Mr Alexander rose— that events in Libya are moving rapidly on the ground, or at least have done so in recent days. As for my hon. Mr Speaker: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman, Friend’s important point about participation and the who it seems wanted to ask another question. I also Arab states and the GCC taking the lead, one of the apologise to the hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline vital elements in any no-fly zone or other operations to Dinenage). protect and support the Libyan civilian population would be the active participation of Arab states. Mr Alexander: I am grateful for a further opportunity to question the Foreign Secretary, Mr Speaker. Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): Yesterday the Prime Minister told the House, in Does the Foreign Secretary agree that there are many response to a question from the Leader of the Opposition reasons for the American President’s caution? He is about arming the rebels: worried about the west being seen to lead, his forces are “We should not exclude various possibilities, and there is an stretched, and he is enormously worried about the argument to be made, but there are important legal, practical and potential for difficulties in the Gulf and the Arabian other issues that would have to be resolved, including the UN peninsula. If we share his analysis, why do we not share arms embargo.”—[Official Report, 14 March 2011; Vol. 525, his caution? c. 30.] Can the Foreign Secretary update the House on the Mr Hague: The United States has agreed with us on Government’s position on each of those issues, given the contingency planning in NATO, and also about the the deteriorating situation of the anti-Gaddafi forces very serious nature of what is happening in Libya and on the ground? the need for Gaddafi to go. The things for which we have argued are the same things for which the United Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister States has been arguing. was quite right. The arms embargo agreed in United As the right hon. Gentleman says, there are currently Nations resolution 1970 covers the whole country—that many other demands on military and diplomatic resources, is, as it is understood by the members of the Security but I think he will agree that if Libya were left as a Council and by the vast majority of legal experts. The pariah state, particularly after recent events—with Gaddafi rebels and the Gaddafi regime are therefore in the same running amok, exacting reprisals on his own people and position as regards the arms embargo. One way of estranged from the rest of the world as a potential changing that would be to produce a new resolution, source of terrorism in the future—that would pose a which would again require the agreement of the United danger to the national interest of this country and, I Nations Security Council. would argue, that of the United States as well. In the G8 this morning, we agreed to welcome urgent Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): The Foreign consideration in the United Nations of Secretary has confirmed what the Prime Minister said “a wide range of measures to ensure the protection of the Libyan yesterday: that a no-fly zone will not be imposed unless population” there is a clear legal basis for it. Can he confirm that and to that is a reference to a United Nations chapter VII “increase the pressure, including through economic measures, for resolution? Mr Qadhafi to leave.” That now requires additional work at the United Nations Mr Hague: The clearest legal base for any such operation headquarters in New York. is obviously a chapter VII resolution of the United Nations Security Council. Lawyers can provide my Libya hon. Friend, and all of us, with extensive arguments about the various circumstances in which nations are 10. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): What recent allowed to take action, which can of course include discussions he has had with his international counterparts self-defence but can also include overwhelming on support for and participation in the enforcement of humanitarian need. This is not a completely open-and-shut a no-fly zone over Libya. [46102] argument, but the clearest basis is a chapter VII resolution. 155 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 156

Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): But can the Alistair Burt: The hon. Lady rightly draws attention Foreign Secretary confirm that, actually, UN law is to the fact that at present we should be looking at whatever communists in Beijing say it is? There is a contingency plans right across the middle east and the whiff of Bosnia of 15, 16, 17 years ago about all this. Gulf, just in case. I can assure her that that work is We do not want the Foreign Secretary to talk about going on. We all wish to see a stable middle east and discussions at the UN, empty EU statements and NATO north African region, but all the contingency plans are meetings that result in nothing; we want him to discover being reworked to make sure they are as effective as his mojo and take a lead in putting policies in place possible, and that applies as much to Saudi as it would before Benghazi falls. to Bahrain, Yemen and all other points east.

Mr Speaker: We thank the right hon. Gentleman. I Middle East call the Foreign Secretary.

Mr Hague: I will make a point of hoping never to 13. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): discover what motivates the right hon. Gentleman, and What recent steps he has taken to promote political never to partake of any of it. [Interruption.] Labour reform in the countries of the middle east; and if he Members are agreeing with me. will make a statement. [46105] I do not accept that UN law is made in Beijing. It is The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth important to have a clear legal base for actions we take Affairs (Mr William Hague): Britain is ready to support internationally, as well as widespread international support the countries of the middle east in putting in place the and demonstrable need, and since the British Government, building blocks for more open, plural and free societies. along with the French Government, have been absolutely As part of our long-term approach, on 8 February in in the forefront of ensuring that all the international Tunis I announced the launch of the Arab partnership sanctions and measures so far have been taken, the right to support the reforms the countries of the region need hon. Gentleman is not in much of a position to criticise. for a stable and prosperous future. But reform must be Libya home-grown; it cannot be imposed by outsiders, and leadership must come from within the countries concerned. 12. Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): What assessment he has made of the adequacy of consular Mr Baron: I thank the Foreign Secretary for that services provided to UK nationals during the recent answer, but I suggest that the provision of independent and accurate information has never been more important events in Libya; and if he will make a statement. [46104] than in these uncertain times. Will the Government The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign therefore revisit their decision that is forcing cuts on the and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): In what has BBC World Service, and particularly the BBC Arabic been the most complex FCO-led evacuation since Kuwait, service? It is extremely short-sighted given that service’s some 600 British nationals were safely brought out of excellent reputation in the region. Libya, and we are all grateful for the immense amount of hard work done by those both in this country, and Mr Hague: My hon. Friend will be pleased to know particularly in Libya, to look after our constituents. that the BBC World Service, and in particular the However, there are always lessons to be learned, which Arabic service, will continue to play a very valuable role is why the Foreign Secretary has asked for a review of in the region: it will continue its 24-hour television our evacuation practices in order to make sure that the channel, and its radio services will continue through practice overall is as good as the very best examples FM relays as well as through shortwave services in the of it. region. Those are a continuing and important part of the BBC World Service. Indeed, in light of recent events, Stephen Gilbert: I am grateful to the Minister for his the BBC has already revisited some of its recent decisions answer. Given that article 20 of the treaty on the functioning that would have affected Arab nations. of the European Union allows British nationals to receive consular assistance from any EU member state, Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): I took part in a what discussions is he having with other EU states to special United Nations conference on the plight of ensure effective and co-ordinated EU responses to such Palestinian prisoners last week, and the descriptions of crises in future? the conditions in which they are held in Israeli prisons and detention centres were appalling. We were told of Alistair Burt: There was co-operation and consultation torture, inhumane treatment and so on. Some 200 to between all European partners right from the beginning. 300 young people under the age of 18 are held in those We often shared each other’s planes. The United Kingdom conditions. What will the Foreign Secretary do to prevail was able to bring out 819 foreign nationals of 43 different on the Israelis to adhere to the conventions to which countries by way of the work we did. The hon. Gentleman they have signed up? is absolutely right that it is essential in such circumstances that there is a lot of co-operation, and we will continue Mr Hague: Of course we believe that there should be to make sure our practices provide for that at all times. the proper treatment of prisoners throughout the world, including in Israel and anywhere else in the middle east. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): On consular services, We have taken up concerns about such issues in the the son of a constituent of mine is teaching in Riyadh. past. If the right hon. Lady would like to give me more What extra consular services and what contingency details of what she found in that particular case, I will plans are in place should the situation in Riyadh change? of course look to take them up with the Israeli authorities. 157 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 158

Middle East Barbara Keeley: I am sure that every Member of this House would wish to be associated with the condolences 14. Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): What recent that the Foreign Secretary just mentioned. The Tibetan assessment he made of the political situation in the Government-in-exile are debating the Dalai Lama’s middle east; and if he will make a statement. [46106] retirement as their political leader. Will the Foreign Secretary update the House on what support the British The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Government would give to a newly elected political and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): The question leader of the Tibetan people in the just cause of gaining asks about our assessment of the political situation in greater autonomy for Tibet, given that he has outlined the middle east and I am tempted to say simply, “It this Government’s support for newly elected leaders in is extremely tricky.” Perhaps I might add that the north Africa? unprecedented events of recent weeks have created profound political undertones and at the moment it is not possible Mr Hague: This Government continue the policy to say just what the outcomes of these great events adopted by the previous Government on the status of will be. Tibet. We await further details on what has been announced by the Dalai Lama in respect of an elected leader in the Jeremy Lefroy: I thank the Minister for his reply. The future. We will have to see the details of that before we Egypt-Israel peace treaty is a successful model of a respond to it in any greater detail. land-for-peace agreement, and Egypt has played a crucial role throughout the middle east peace process. What T4. [46121] Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): My right steps are the Government taking to ensure that that hon. Friend made some welcome remarks about the agreement continues to be a cornerstone of the process? tragic murder of the Fogel family on the west bank. Is he aware that the Palestinian Government recently gave Alistair Burt: We were all reassured when one of the $2,000 to the family of a terrorist who attacked an first statements made by Egypt’s military council was Israeli soldier? What steps can he take to stop the that it accepted and will adhere to its international incitement of terrorism by the Palestinians? agreements. I think everyone understood that it was referring specifically to the peace agreement with Israel, Mr Hague: I join my hon. Friend in deploring any and I hope that that will provide people with confidence. incitement of terrorism by anyone on any side of the When I was in Egypt last week, I saw the relationship disputes in the middle east. We are not aware as Ministers between the military and the politicians, and it is to be of the particular instance to which he refers, but if he hoped that there will be a process towards democratic would like to get in touch with us with the details we elections and government, and that that peace treaty will, of course, look into it. will be adhered to by a future Government. Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Will the South) (Lab): May I obviously associate myself and my Minister give us the Government’s security assessment colleagues with the Foreign Secretary’s expression of of the situation in Bahrain and the potential for a sympathy towards the people of Japan at this terrible Shi’a-Sunni conflict both there and in Saudi Arabia? time? The right hon. Gentleman told the House on 14 February that the British Government had Alistair Burt: Obviously, we watch events in Bahrain with mounting concern. The sense is that the Bahraini “received a request from the Egyptian Government to freeze the assets of several former Egyptian officials.”—[Official Report, Government should continue to give an opportunity for 14 February 2011; Vol. 523, c. 715.] legitimate protest and that the dialogue should continue with opposition parties. It is incumbent on both the Will he tell the House whether he has acted on that opposition and the Government to keep that process of request from the Egyptian authorities and gone ahead reform going. On intervention from the GCC at the and frozen the assets of all those former officials? request of Bahrain, it is essential that that is consistent with the spirit of reform, and not repression. Mr Hague: We have acted on that request with our European Union partners. One difficulty with pursuing this to the necessary point of freezing the actual assets Topical Questions is the lack of information that has been supplied by the Egyptian authorities. We have urged progress within the T1. [46118] Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) European Union so that this is done on an EU basis, (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental and that means that the decisive action remains to be responsibilities. taken. The UK has been at the forefront of the arguments in the EU to take action. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): Last night, I met the T5. [46122] Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): Foreign Minister of Japan, Mr Matsumoto, and again Political violence by Mugabe’s militias in Zimbabwe is conveyed the condolences of the British people after rising again. Does the Secretary of State share my Friday’s earthquake and tsunami. He expressed the concern that the court ruling last week removing the thanks and appreciation of his country for the support Movement for Democratic Change Speaker and four of that we have sent, particularly in the form of search and its MPs risks derailing the fragile journey to political rescue teams. We also discussed the need to co-operate reform? Will he raise this as a matter of urgency with closely on ascertaining the whereabouts of British nationals President Zuma of South Africa and other leaders in in Japan. the region? 159 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 160

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr Henry Bellingham): I Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): I have not yet had the certainly share my hon. Friend’s concerns about the opportunity to visit Brazil, although I was due to travel arrest and detention of those MDC MPs. It is a disgrace with the Deputy Prime Minister. My hon. Friend makes that they remain in custody. However, our ambassador a very accurate point about the growing significance of in Harare attended the hearing this morning for Elton Brazil and I am delighted to announce that the Foreign Mangoma, who has now been released on bail. I agree Secretary intends to visit shortly. with my hon. Friend that it is essential that President Zuma carries on his good work with the Southern T6. [46123] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): African Development Community to create a robust Yesterday in the House the Prime Minister said that he roadmap to credible elections. wanted to establish dialogue with the opposition in Libya. Unfortunately, over the past five days, my constituent T2. [46119] Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Do the Government find it acceptable that residents of Dr Burwaiss, who has contacts in the national liberation Camp Ashraf—opponents of the Iranian regime—are council in Benghazi, has had extreme difficulty, despite subjected to a 24-hour campaign of abuse and torture, his and my efforts, in finding out where and to whom including bombardment by 210 loudspeakers? What on information should be sent. Can this now be corrected? earth are we doing about it? Alistair Burt: I thank the hon. Lady for her question; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign we have spoken about this over the weekend. The and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): We are aware ambassador to Libya, Richard Northern, is working on of both the intrusion of loudspeakers and occasional all available contacts, including the relatives of the suggestions that the residents of Camp Ashraf are gentleman whom the hon. Lady has mentioned. We will denied medical assistance. The UK meets representatives make sure not only that contact is made as best as of the Iraqi Government’s Camp Ashraf committee, possible but that information is passed back to her the UN regularly visits the camp and we make every constituent. effort to urge the Iraqi authorities to ensure that the residents of Camp Ashraf are treated in accordance Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Does the Secretary with international humanitarian standards. of State agree that the act of inviting in troops from T7. [46124] MrPeterBone(Wellingborough)(Con):The militarily superior neighbours has evil precedents in the coalition agreement, on page 19, calls for the crushing of human rights in 20th-century Europe? If Government so, as a good historian, will he share that view with the “to limit the application of the Working Time Directive in the Bahraini and Saudi Governments? United Kingdom.” Tomorrow, this House will be asked to agree a stability Mr Hague: We are extremely concerned about the mechanism for the eurozone, a decision over which we escalation of the situation in Bahrain, particularly the have a veto. Will the Foreign Secretary withhold agreement decision of the Government of Bahrain to declare a on the stability mechanism until we have reform of the state of emergency. We call on all parties to exercise working time directive? maximum restraint and to avoid violence. The Government of Bahrain should respect the right to peaceful protest, The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): My respond to the legitimate concerns of the Bahraini right hon. Friends the Secretaries of State for Health people and persist with their attempts to draw others and for Business, Innovation and Skills are engaged in into a dialogue on reform. The intervention by GCC drawing up Government proposals to address the problem partners at the request of the Bahraini Government identified by my hon. Friend. The appropriate time to should also be consistent with that, supporting reform do that is likely to be when the Commission comes and not repression, allowing a swift return to peaceful forward with new proposals on the working time directive conditions and creating an environment in which dialogue during the next 12 months. can take place. T3. [46120] Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Libya’s rapid plunge towards civil war is further evidence, T8. [46125] Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): Last if it were needed, of the irresponsibility of selling arms Thursday, I joined students from Swallow Hill community to regimes that seek to quell dissent through force. Will college and Abbey Grange school from my constituency the Government now work to ensure that the UN arms on a visit to Auschwitz. Will the Foreign Secretary join embargo to Libya is extended to all regimes that engage me in commending the Holocaust Educational Trust’s in repression? work and will he confirm what funding the Government will commit to supporting the Auschwitz-Birkenau Mr Hague: It is an immediate priority to ensure that Foundation to ensure that future generations can see that arms embargo is properly observed. It is necessary what happens when racism and hatred go unchecked? to review how we give export licences to various countries around the middle east in the future, and we will conduct that review. Mr Lidington: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising this point. The Government are determined to T9. [46126] Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) preserve the memory of the holocaust to educate future (LD): Brazil has one of the most rapidly growing of all generations and we support the long-term preservation global economies. Unfortunately, a visit by the Deputy of Auschwitz-Birkenau as a site of remembrance and Prime Minister and another Foreign Office Minister reflection. We are currently finalising the details of had to be postponed. When are there plans to meet the exactly how we will support the foundation and I assure new President of that very important country? her that an announcement will be made very soon. 161 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 162

Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): Does my right Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Air strikes against hon. Friend believe that the appetite for democracy is his own people, the use of mercenaries, the imprisonment universal? If so, what moral support and encouragement of foreign journalists—what does the Foreign Secretary will he offer those in Iran who seek to live freely as believe would be the impact on human rights elsewhere we do? in the world were Gaddafi’s tactics seen to be successful?

Mr Hague: I agree with my hon. Friend. We believe Mr Hague: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, that human rights, including democratic rights, are and a parallel point to the one that the Prime Minister universal. It is particularly pertinent to raise the situation made here yesterday. If Gaddafi succeeded in suppressing in Iran because the two principal leaders of the opposition the desire for a freer and more open country in Libya, forces in Iran, Mr Mousavi and Mr Karroubi, have there are tyrants elsewhere who would draw the wrong been detained with their wives—they have disappeared lesson from it. That is why we are at the forefront of all with their wives. I am glad that my hon. Friend raised the activity that I described during our Question Time this matter because it is important, amidst the current today, but I stress alongside that that whatever we do turbulence in the middle east, not to forget what is must be legal and have international support. happening in Iran and to remember that a country that has preached support for protest in other nations does Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ not hesitate brutally to suppress protest within its own Co-op): Will the Foreign Secretary raise at the next borders. European Council meeting the case of my constituent, David Petrie, who is one of a group of English language lecturers in Italy who have been fighting for a European [46127] Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Hamas T10. right to equal pay for 25 years? After six victories in the terrorists fired long-range rockets into apartments in European Court, they thought they were going to get Beersheba just a few weeks ago. With Hamas’s leader justice, only to find that the Berlusconi Government calling for jihad, not negotiation, and with Iran supplying have changed the law. weapons to Hamas, Hezbollah and the Taliban, what more can the Secretary of State do to curtail terrorist Mr Lidington: We regard the treatment of the lettori attacks against our forces in Afghanistan and our allies as completely unacceptable, and through both our embassy in the middle east? in Rome and ministerial contacts we are pursuing the matter energetically with the Italian authorities. Mr Hague: I listed earlier some of the things we are doing. Clearly, we are intercepting some of the shipments Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): If Britain of arms that have been involved. That is how we know decides to take part in an unanticipated military about the rockets that were being shipped to the Taliban commitment to engage in a no-fly zone in Libya, will and about the ammunition involved. I set out some of the extra cost be added to or will it be taken from the the other actions, including diplomatic actions, that we existing defence budget? are taking. We have stepped up our efforts in that regard, but the hon. Gentleman is quite right to ask us Mr Hague: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to do still more. and the Chancellor will no doubt make a judgment about that, if it arises. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): When the Foreign Secretary next meets Secretary of State Clinton, will he John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Further to clarify with her the American Government’s position the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for on the Falkland Islands? Do they support British Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), my sovereignty or not? understanding is that a list was provided by the Egyptian authorities of people connected to the Mubarak regime. Mr Hague: I last met Secretary Clinton last night in Is the information on that list inadequate, or are other Paris. That was not part of our discussion, because members of the EU dragging their feet? clearly we were discussing the situation in Libya, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we do not have any Mr Hague: Both of those, to some degree. Certainly, difficulty with the United States Government on that the information on the list was inadequate. This is a issue. matter that is handled by the Treasury. It is important that the House has an update on it, but both of those factors are present. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The European Union’s 27 Energy Ministers are meeting today to discuss nuclear Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): During last night’s safety in the wake of the horrific developments in Adjournment debate on the future of the BBC Hindi Japan. As a minimum, will the UK Government support service, the House was pleased to hear that discussions Germany, France and Spain in their support of a proposal are taking place between the Foreign Office and the by the Austrian Energy Minister, Niki Berlakovich, that Department for International Development which could there should be stress tests in all nuclear power stations lead to World Service expenditure being considered as across the European Union, including those in the UK? official development assistance. Does my right hon. Friend agree that everything possible should be done to Mr Lidington: There is a range of possible options protect this very important part of British soft diplomacy? that European Energy Ministers will discuss today. The important principle is that politicians should be guided Mr Hague: It is possible for some of the expenditure by scientific evidence about the best steps available to of the BBC World Service to be classified in the way ensure that nuclear safety is maintained. that my hon. Friend describes. In the Foreign Office we 163 Oral Answers15 MARCH 2011 Oral Answers 164 have done everything we can to give financial support, Foreign Office is, regrettably, just that—advice. It is not including transitional support, to the BBC World Service. assisting with transport. Can something more be done? She will be aware of the fact that in three years it will be funded by the BBC licence fee, and that transfer of Mr Jeremy Browne: The British Government have funding will give new opportunities for the future. But put in a hugely comprehensive response to help British every part of the public sector must contribute to nationals in Japan. We have supplemented what is already improving its efficiency and saving money; there is no a large embassy with an additional 45 staff from across getting away from that. Asia and elsewhere in the world. We are trying to do everything possible to help British nationals in what is a Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): chaotic and difficult situation, but if the hon. Gentleman None of us can imagine the plight that tens of thousands gives me the details of the case that he has just raised, I of people are experiencing in Japan at this time, and will ensure that I give it my personal attention. they include UK citizens. My constituent’s son, his wife and their seven-month-old child are stuck in the north Several hon. Members rose— of Sendai city. They are in a hotel where a bus turned up this morning and took away a number of European Mr Speaker: Order. I am sorry that some colleagues nationals who were fit and healthy, including Irish are disappointed: the demand today is huge and the nationals. However, the only advice being given by our supply limited. 165 15 MARCH 2011 166

Points of Order Financial Services (Regulation of Derivatives) 3.35 pm Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab): On a point of No. 23) order, Mr Speaker. In business questions last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns)— 3.38 pm whom I am pleased to see in his place today—asked about the 563 parliamentary questions to the Department Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I beg to move, for Education that are currently unanswered. In written That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require certain financial responses to me, the Department has stated that only institutions to prepare parallel accounts on the basis of the lower 10% of named day questions and 20% of letters from of historic cost and mark to market for their exposure to derivatives; and for connected purposes. hon. Members have been answered on time, with some going as far back as November. On top of Building I rise not as an expert in derivatives or derivative Schools for the Future and school sport partnerships, accounting, but as someone who has wrestled with the that shows a Department in a shambolic and chaotic problems of the banking system in the company of state, whether through incompetence or laziness. It is experts, both academic and practical. I am persuaded not good enough. A schoolchild who had done only that a parallel, more conservative accounting regime for 10% of their homework would get detention. What can derivatives would mitigate some of the worst risks in the you do, Mr Speaker, to keep Ministers back after school financial system. for failing to do their homework, which—on a serious Even though banks are governed by overarching EU note—is preventing hon. Members from holding the and Basel rules, it is for British regulators to approve Government to account for their education policy and the day-to-day activities of British banks. This is a acting on behalf of their constituents? profoundly important role. My Bill is a moderate proposal which seeks to improve accounting transparency to Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for enable that role, because, as Mervyn King has said, his point of order and for advance notice of it. I “banks are global in life but national in death”. sympathise with the concern that he has expressed. I understand that other hon. Members have been affected The Bill could be enacted within the current international in the same way. I deprecate late replies, but Ministers regulatory framework. are responsible for their answers. Oral questions to the To explain why this measure is profoundly important, Department for Education will be taken next Monday. I I would like to share with Members an analogy of the suggest that the hon. Gentleman and others with similar banking system. Naturally, it will short-circuit some of experiences and views seek advice from the Table Office the details even as it remains necessarily complex. Let on how to pursue this matter. The Deputy Leader of us imagine that we discover a little-known territory the House is in his place and will have heard the concern within the EU on which to establish a colony. Let us call expressed. This is a serious matter, and I hope that it Ruritania and allow its currency to be pounds. We something will indeed be done to address the concern will establish our fledgling colony with four people: a that the hon. Gentleman and others regularly raise. depositor, Alice, who arrives with £103; a builder, Bob— naturally—; an entrepreneur, Matilda; and a banker, Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): On a point of order, Mallory, with a colourful recent past in Iceland and Mr Speaker. Have you had any notification that either Ireland. Interest rates are 0.5%. Mallory establishes a the Secretary of State for Communities and Local bank and persuades the other three inhabitants of the Government or the Secretary of State for Health wants importance of a healthy banking system, so Ruritania’s to make a statement about the crisis in Southern Cross constitution contains a limited guarantee from future Healthcare, whose share price has collapsed to one taxpayers of £10 in favour of the bank. Under central hundredth of its peak? Southern Cross Healthcare has European banking authority devolved rules, Ruritania 750 care homes across the country, with 31,000 elderly classifies that guarantee as core tier 1 bank capital, and vulnerable residents. They and their relatives need meaning that there is no actual capital, just a taxpayer urgent reassurance and action from Ministers. guarantee. Alice, seeking to keep her money safe, deposits it in a Mr Speaker: The short answer to the right hon. demand account at the bank. Matilda, the entrepreneur, Gentleman is that I have received no indication that any wants to start a business and approaches Mallory for a Minister wants to make a statement on the subject. He loan. The bank retains a supposedly prudent reserve of has put his concerns about the matter on the record £3 from Alice’s deposit and lends to Matilda, at 7% interest, explicitly. I will not call him an old hand, because he the remaining £100 of cash deposited by Alice. Matilda will take offence, but he is a wily operator, and I have a then employs Bob, who wants his year’s wages up front. feeling that he will use the opportunities open to him in She hands over the £100 to Bob, which he deposits in the House to pursue this matter for as long as he judges the bank. Let us set aside for the moment the fact that necessary. the bank just doubled the money supply of Ruritania, as that issue is dealt with in the Financial Services (Regulation of Deposits and Lending) Bill, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Clacton (Mr Carswell), which I was glad to support. The banker now has two liabilities: a deposit of £103 from Alice and a deposit of £100 from Bob. Offsetting those, he has two assets: a 25-year loan of £100 and cash of £103. So far, so simple. 167 Financial Services (Regulation of 15 MARCH 2011 Financial Services (Regulation of 168 Derivatives) Derivatives) Mallory wants a Ferrari today, which he can buy for comparing the price of the asset or liability in today’s £20. His compensation contract is 20% of profits, which market with the value of the position on the last balance is not unusual in banking. He therefore seeks to record sheet date. What is wrong with that? Marking to market an instant £100 profit for his bank, and he knows just enables banks to record unrealised increases in value as how to do that under EU bank accounting rules. He profits, but that is not the case with loans. The arbitrage phones an insurer active in the credit derivatives market—let between the different accounting regimes for loans and us call it GIA—which agrees to write a derivative known for derivatives therefore incentivises banks to transact as a credit default swap for a fee of 1% per annum. It is business in derivatives. The fundamental driving force a guarantee of 95% of the loan. behind the phenomenal growth of the credit derivatives The bank quickly establishes a new company, a special market has been profit acceleration using that accounting purpose vehicle, which buys the future loan cash flows arbitrage. of £275. The credit derivative is written directly with Regulators need to be aware of those exposures in that new company, the SPV.The SPV finances its purchases order to help avert any future threats. That requires the by issuing two bonds: a 95% senior bond, rated triple A publication of accounts with derivatives and other by two august rating agencies because GIA is so rated; investments recorded at the lower of historic cost and and a 5% junior or equity tranche. The bank buys the their mark-to-market value. If my Bill becomes law, the two bonds with the £100 cash. The funds then flow ability to declare future hoped-for income as profit back from the SPV to the bank to settle that purchase. today and the rest of the absurd activity that I have That kind of circular flow of cash is commonly used. described would be restrained. The result is that the equity tranche of £5 is a deduction If we want banks to refocus on stimulating the real from the bank’s £10 tier 1 capital. Members will recall economy, we need to change those incentives. I therefore that that capital is a future taxpayers’ pledge, not hard ask the House to support this Bill and, in so doing, to cash. correct one of the most damaging and misunderstood Under mark-to-market rules, Mallory, by holding the weaknesses of the current British banking system. bond on his trading book, records an instant but unrealised Question put and agreed to. profit of £105. After replenishing his tier 1 capital with Ordered, £5, he shows that £100 clear profit. That profit has been recorded, even though the bank has not received any That Steve Baker, Mr Douglas Carswell, Andrea income from the loan, and that loan might never be Leadsom and Chris Heaton-Harris present the Bill. repaid. Mallory the banker is not concerned about that, Steve Baker accordingly presented the Bill. however; he has his Ferrari. Any shareholders are not Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on concerned either, as the bank also declares an £80 dividend. Friday 10 June and to be printed (Bill 162). The banker and his shareholders have taken £100 of the £103 total money supply of Ruritania, declared it as The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of profit and spent it abroad. Mallory likes mark-to-market the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): On a point accounting and seeks to grow his bank by making of order, Mr Speaker. The House will have heard earlier further investments. He cannot sell the bond on the the point of order from the hon. Member for Hartlepool open market, so he borrows against it through an (Mr Wright) about the delay in responses to hon. Members’ arrangement with a central bank, known as a repo. He questions from the Department for Education. The receives £205 in cash from the central bank, and the whole House should be concerned when there has been central bank has a mortgage on his bond. a delay, and you, Sir, have made clear your views on the Mallory uses the balance as collateral for further issue. bets, such as derivatives with other banks and low-priced I have now investigated the matter, and it seems as Irish bank-issued bonds, in the hope of more fast though there is a specific problem within the Department profits. Unfortunately, his bank becomes insolvent when for Education in that there has been a technical failure Matilda misses a loan payment, and it cannot refinance in the IT system that it uses to track parliamentary the central bank’s funding, so the central bank takes questions. The problem has now been identified and ownership of the bond—Mallory’s bank’s one decent fixed, and officials are working towards providing asset. Depositors ask for their funds, but the bank outstanding responses as quickly as possible. The hon. cannot pay. That could be the crisis of 2014. Member for Gateshead (Ian Mearns) will today have received a letter explaining the delay in those terms. I On our Ruritanian bank’s liquidation, we find that hope, Mr Speaker, that normal service will be resumed two depositors have claims for £203, but there is only as soon as possible, and I know that the Department £6 in cash; all the rest had been pledged as collateral would wish to apologise to any Member of the House and the bank’s assets cannot be sold. There happens to who has been inconvenienced by the delay caused by have been another freakishly unlikely collapse. Stakeholders these circumstances. had not realised that the bank’s one decent asset had been repo’d with the central bank, because it remained Mr Speaker: I thank the Deputy Leader of the House on Mallory’s bank’s balance sheet right up to foreclosure. for what he has said. The situation is clearly both Mallory, of course, lives happily ever after. regrettable and unsatisfactory, and it is much to be Financial derivatives and certain other “synthetic” hoped that it can be avoided in future. However, the investments are governed by mark to market. Banks speed with which he has investigated the matter will, I record a profit or loss in respect of each derivative by think, be appreciated by all right hon. and hon. Members. 169 15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 170

Scotland Bill offices or staff or related expenses incurred by such members other than in connection with or at the Parliament’s place of meeting or in connection with a committee meeting. [3RD ALLOCATED DAY] (2B) Any allowances paid to regional members in a registered Further considered in Committee political party shall be founded on the assumption that they are representatives of that party from the relevant region and not [MR LINDSAY HOYLE in the Chair] from any single constituency.”. (3) In Schedule 3, after paragraph 2 , there is inserted— Clause 38 2A The standing orders shall include provision for withdrawing from a regional member in a registered political party any or all of COMMENCEMENT his rights and privileges as a member, including any allowances, if he is found to have purported to act, or has held himself out, as a New Clause 1 constituency member for any single constituency or for a group of constituencies other than the region from which he was elected.”’. ABOLITION OF REGIONAL MEMBERS OF SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT 3.51 pm ‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows. (2) In section 1— Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Let (a) in subsection (2) “Two members” is substituted for me continue where we left off yesterday in discussing “One member”; and at the end there is inserted “save new clauses 1 and 2, particularly the question of first for those identified in paragraph 1(a) to (c) of past the post being the fairer system— Schedule 1, each of which shall return one member,”; (b) subsection (3) is omitted. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (3) In section 5, subsections (1) and (3) to (9) are omitted. (SNP): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? (4) Sections 6, 7, 8 and 10 are omitted. (5) In section 11, subsection (2) is substituted by— Mr Donohoe: I will give way when I have developed my argument one stage further than when I left off. An “(2) A person is not entitled to vote as an elector in more than one constituency at a general election, and may cast no more than important aspect of this is that first past the post is the two votes at a poll for the return of constituency members.”. system that is best understood by the electorate—indeed, I would argue, it is almost the only system that is (6) In section 12— understood by the electorate. (a) in subsection (2), paragraphs (e) and (f) are omitted; (b) subsection (3) is omitted; Mr MacNeil: I think that if the hon. Gentleman (c) after subsection (4) the following subsection is looks at yesterday’s Hansard, he will find that we finished inserted— where I left off. At 10 pm last night, I was about to ask “(4A) The provision to be made under subsection (1) must him what he had against the good people of the Western include provision for— Isles in wanting to give them only one Member, with (a) each elector to cast one or two votes of equal value, every other constituency getting two. with no more than one vote to be given to any one candidate, in constituencies returning two members; (b) the two candidates with the most valid votes to be Mr Donohoe: I have always thought that the Member elected in such constituencies.”. who looks after sheep should be able to count. If he could count, he would know that there are not that (7) In Schedule 1— many people in the electorate of the Western Isles. In (a) for paragraph 1 there is substituted— those circumstances, I thought it only fair that there “(1) The constituencies are— should be just the one Member. As I said previously, (a) the Orkney Islands, there would be one Member for Orkney and one Member (b) the Shetland Islands for Shetland. That would mean that there would be (c) the Western Isles [Na h-Eileanan An Iar], and 118 Members of the Scottish Parliament, all elected on (d) the parliamentary constituencies in Scotland at the the basis of first past the post. If the hon. Gentleman time of an ordinary or extraordinary general election tells me that I have got the figures wrong, perhaps I for the Scottish Parliament, except the constituencies need to go back to school to do a bit of arithmetic, but I of Orkney and Shetland and Na h-Eileanan An Iar”; can tell him that I was one of the brightest children in (b) paragraphs 3 to 14 are omitted.’.—(Mr Donohoe.) the school at arithmetic; indeed, I got 100% on many Brought up, read the First time, and Question proposed occasions. (14 March), That the clause be read a Second time. However, perhaps one area where I was not very Question again proposed. strong was dates, because earlier in the debate I said to the hon. Gentleman that the Scottish elections were on The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): 3 May whereas—he should have corrected me—they I remind the Committee that with this we are discussing areon5May. new clause 2—Regional members of the Scottish Parliament— Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op): ‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows. Is it the case that the school my hon. Friend attended (2) In section 81, after subsection (2), there is inserted— was so good that it was approved? “(2A) No provision shall be made under subsection (2) for any allowances for representative work in any constituency or region Mr Donohoe: It was so good that it was known as by a regional member in a registered political party or a group of Irvine Royal Academy. Anyway, we will move on very such regional members; and no allowances may be made for quickly from that point. 171 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 172

Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD) rose— Mr Weir: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify whether he is talking about Westminster Parliament constituencies Mr Donohoe: I am sure I can give way to the hon. or Scottish Parliament constituencies, because the numbers Gentleman as well. are different? There are 59 Scottish Parliament constituencies, but once the Parliamentary Voting System Mr Reid: According to Hansard, just before the hon. and Constituencies Bill has been passed there will be Gentleman sat down last night, he said that there would only 52 Scottish constituencies for the Westminster be 119 Members of the Scottish Parliament. He just Parliament. said that there would be 118. My understanding is that Mr Donohoe: That is common sense, if I may say so. all 59 constituencies, apart from the Western Isles, would When I made the calculation to put together my submission have two Members, and that the Western Isles would get to Calman, we did not have this nonsense of reducing one. I think that that makes 117. the number of MPs in this place. That idea is patently stupid in Scotland. The hon. Member for Caithness, Mr Donohoe: I think that we are wandering into Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso), who is maths rather than arithmetic, but the hon. Gentleman present, will know that the area he represents will is absolutely right. Of course, that would be a saving to become even more enormous under these calculations the public purse, which is very important. Perhaps one than it is. Perhaps the Independent Parliamentary Standards could call it a Freudian slip. I have come to the conclusion Authority should visit him to check out what his expenses that he is right and that the number should indeed should be in those circumstances. However, I digress be 117, and not 119 as I suggested. somewhat. Moving swiftly on— I shall return to the issue of savings and first past the post. It is clear from this debate that there is a case to be Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ made for this idea. It is clear from the number of public Co-op) rose— representatives on the London assembly that there can be adequate government for a population double the Mr Donohoe: I do not think I am going to be allowed size of Scotland’s with some 30 members. Given the to move on swiftly. responsibilities in London, one would presume that it was possible to run the Scottish Government with the numbers that I propose. Mark Lazarowicz: Surely with the passage of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman wants to reduce which will reduce the number of parliamentary the number of parliamentary representatives from Scotland. constituencies, the correct figure would in fact be 103. Will he lead by example and suggest that Scotland no longer needs to send any MPs to Westminster, because Mr Donohoe: If the hon. Gentleman intervenes again Scotland should be independent and all powers pertaining to give me some understanding of that point, I might be to Scotland should be moved from Westminster back to able to accede to it. Scotland?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland Mr Donohoe: The first people who could go in these (David Mundell) rose— circumstances are, of course, the nats. That would be very useful. I am surprised that only four of their six Members are here today. However, looking at the Labour Mr Donohoe: Oh, there we are. The Minister is now Benches, perhaps I should not argue that point too popping up. forcefully. To return to my serious argument, first past the post David Mundell: Perhaps I might help the hon. Gentleman. is the most sensible system on the basis of turnout. If My calculation is that there would be 101 Members. we look at the turnout at elections—today I had the After the passage of the Parliamentary Voting System good fortune of having the Library do so—we see that and Constituencies Bill, there will be 52 constituencies there is no doubt that we, as a group, need to reconnect in Scotland. If each had two Members, there would with the public. It is highly probable that we will go be 104. However, there are three constituencies that he below 50% turnout at this year’s Scottish elections. In feels should have only one Member, although my reading the 2007 election, the turnout was just above 52%. In of new clause 1 is that people would still have two votes. the election to the Westminster Parliament last year, the There would therefore be 101 Members in the new figure was just under 64%. On that basis, we should Scottish Parliament. Does he think that that would be consider the matter seriously. sufficient to conduct the Parliament’s business? 4pm Mr Donohoe: The Minister has made my point very Just 100 years ago, when elections in this country well in relation to making savings, which is the next were taken very seriously, the turnout in the UK election point that I want to make progress on, if I may. was 86.8%, and even in Scotland it was 84.7%. I know that that was in 1910, but it was the complete opposite Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Will the hon. Gentleman of what is going on today. I argue, and will argue till the give way? coos come hame, that unless and until we reconnect with the public, the downward trend will continue. If Mr Donohoe: Of course I give way to the hon. turnout goes below 50%, as is highly probable, what Gentleman. mandate will there be? 173 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 174

Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): Is the hon. Mr Donohoe: My hon. Friend may not have slept last Gentleman therefore arguing in favour of a system night, but what does she think of the fact that I have rather like the Australians have, in which people are had to come back here to continue this debate? I will fined if they do not exercise their right to vote? come back to her point later.

Mr Donohoe: I am grateful for the intervention, but I Mark Lazarowicz: I disagree with much of what my disagree with the idea of compulsory voting and fines. I hon. Friend said yesterday and today, but I concede his have been to Australia to examine the system, and it just point on the role of list MSPs. One list MSP in my area does not work as it should, so I would not advocate it. just produced her annual report. By some amazing In Africa, however, people queue for weeks before an coincidence, almost every single example of her local election to cast their vote, and we should have some of work over the last year happens to be from the constituency that attitude in this country. I do not think we will ever where she is standing as a constituency candidate. get it unless we reconnect with the public, and certainly not if we continue to have list Members north of the border. Mr Donohoe: On the basis of conversations with other hon. Members, there is universal agreement that That brings me neatly to new clause 2. If there is to be something is fundamentally wrong with that aspect of no change to the voting system, we have to consider the list Members. Even a previous Presiding Officer has role of the list Members in the Scottish Parliament. We made that point on numerous occasions in the Scottish must seriously consider withdrawing the funding that is Parliament. That is a pertinent issue and it must be currently available to them, which allows them to come given serious consideration, which is why I have proposed into constituencies to cherry-pick and cause mayhem. new clause 2, which would withdraw funding. Withdrawing Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- the funding available to added list Members would lead op): Does my hon. Friend share my concern, which has to significant savings for the Scottish Parliament. If my been a consistent concern in Scotland, that at various arithmetic is correct, there are 56 added list MSPs, times list Members appear to have promoted themselves given that 73 MSPs are elected for constituencies—I as constituency Members? Does he agree that that must believe my figures are right on this occasion. be tackled as a matter of priority? Does he further understand that in the spirit of the Scottish Parliament Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) rules, it was anticipated that regional list Members (Con): Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern would notify constituency Members whenever they took that, fundamentally, list Members are representatives up casework? In my almost 12 years as an MSP, it was only of their parties? In new clauses 1 and 2, he is very rare— seeking to reconnect MSPs with constituents. Under the first-past-the-post system, MSPs must recognise The Chairman: Order. I know that this debate is very that they represent each and every one of their constituents, important, but can we have shorter interventions? including—and in many ways more importantly—those who did not vote for them, which is in stark contrast to Mr Donohoe: There is no one in the House who list Members. knows the system north of the border better than my hon. Friend, because she was an MSP, and still is until, I Mr Donohoe: I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman, think, the 24th of this month. who is my MP, as he knows. I came into Parliament Cathy Jamieson: The 22nd. thinking that I was a Labour MP, but over the years I have come to understand that I represent not just Labour Mr Donohoe: I was two out again. I am not doing so voters but 100% of my constituents, including those well in that sense. who vote and those who do not vote. I have always taken that view. The hon. Gentleman makes a good Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): Following on intervention, and I am grateful for it, but I do not know from the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for what it has to do with the subject in hand. Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), is my If one accepts that list Members are not to make hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire representations on behalf of individual constituents, (Mr Donohoe) aware of the recent case in which a the question is why do they advertise constituency regional list MSP for Central Scotland was claiming to surgeries? On one occasion, such a Member, who will be almost a constituency MSP for Airdrie and Shotts, remain nameless, advertised a surgery in my constituency. to the extent that he had surgery posters with “Airdrie I was not very pleased, so I decided to look through all and Shotts” on them? The regional area that he covers the files in my office—some 2,500 files—for some awkward is, of course, much larger. I suspect that it was done for cases. I decided I would phone those awkward cases and electoral reasons, with his being the SNP candidate for tell them that this individual was having a surgery in the Airdrie and Shotts Scottish parliamentary constituency. Irvine, and that they should attend because he made such a good MSP. Seventeen people trooped to his Mr Donohoe: Of course I agree with my hon. Friend, surgery, and he never did a surgery in Irvine again. That and I shall return to that point. is the practical way to overcome the problem of added Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab): I can tell my list Members in the Scottish Parliament. If anyone hon. Friend that I barely slept last night waiting to wants a wee bit of encouragement to do likewise, I am make this intervention. Will he at least acknowledge more than happy to oblige. that the current system came about as a result of a consultative process—the Scottish Constitutional Mr MacNeil: I was wondering whether the awkward Convention—which the Committee should respect? cases had already been sent to the hon. Gentleman. 175 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 176

Mr Donohoe: No, I already had the awkward cases causes dissent and demonstrates that the list system in and knew all about them. Every single Member in this Scotland does not—and will not—work, and is not seen place—even those who came in last year—will be well as fair. aware of the cases that they would like to palm off. It might be that we could find a role for those list Members Fiona O’Donnell: I thank my hon. Friend for being so andsendthemallovertheUKtotakeuptheseawkward generous in giving way. I know that he would never be cases. I might be one of those who would advocate partisan, but surely he can see the benefit for the thousands that—but not today, because we are here to debate new of people in the highlands and islands region who vote clauses 1 and 2. for Labour candidates, and who, thanks to the system, My final point concerns what happens when a list have three excellent candidates in Peter Peacock, Rhoda Member dies in office. Of course, that is unfair on the Grant and David Stewart. individual, although they would no longer worry about it; but there is also an unfairness in the system, as we Mr Donohoe: Well, I got one out of three, so I did not have seen—believe it or not—in Ayrshire: a Member of do too badly. I bet that if I asked the hon. Member for the Scottish Parliament resigned and a member of the Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) to name his seven constituency party was put in their place, but that list Members—or even the 24 in my constituency—he Labour member was not elected and a Tory took their would be lucky to name three of them. But I will give place. Had it been a list Member who resigned, however, way, if he is going to reel them off. [Interruption.] He under the list system the next person on the list would has it on his website! That is a bit of a cheat, would you have been appointed as a Member of the Scottish not say, Mr Hoyle? Anyway, I am coming to the end of Parliament. my contribution, you will be glad to know. Cathy Jamieson: To clarify, does my hon. Friend agree that it makes no sense that everything else in the 4.15 pm Scottish Parliament is done by proportionality and d’Hondt? This is the one area where that does not seem Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I am sorry that I to apply. was not in my place for the start of the hon. Gentleman’s contribution, but I have been following most of it. I am Mr Donohoe: That is a discussion for another day, unhappy about Members of the Scottish Parliament but it is a very pertinent point—and one that a lot of being named when they are not here to defend themselves. people do not understand. A lot of people do not As for the three people mentioned by the hon. Member understand this crazy list system. As I have said, if a for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell), will the hon. constituency Member resigns, a by-election is triggered, Gentleman tell us whether one, two or all three of them and whatever happens the democratic process takes as list members also intend to stand in the first-past-the-post place. However, if a list Member dies, retires or resigns, election? If so, that would pose a very interesting question. they are replaced by somebody on the list, which is absolutely outrageous. The Labour party is concerned Mr Donohoe: The hon. Gentleman raises a pertinent to have a gender balance, but this system destroys that point—one that my individual constituency voted on possibility. and came to a unanimous decision. I stress that this is on the basis of a vote only in my own constituency, but Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): not a single person in the constituency party was in My hon. Friend is making a compelling and fascinating support of any added list members also standing for a case. He might be aware that when the Minister moved particular constituency. I mentioned that earlier when I to Westminster, his replacement was simply appointed spoke about a person who came fourth in the first-past-the by the Tory apparatchiks without any democratic mandate. post election in my constituency finding herself in Parliament. That does not make sense, and I doubt Mr Donohoe: I am sure that the Minister can speak whether the hon. Gentleman would say that it made for himself and tell us why he thinks that this aspect of sense. the list system is fair. I shall wait to see whether he has a contribution to make on that point. Let me conclude. This is an important subject for the chattering classes, but it is not very important to the Mr Mark Field: The same point applies to the London great bulk of people in Scotland—or, for that matter, assembly, and it is slightly more serious even than he anywhere in the United Kingdom. One thing is certain: has pointed out. Certain roles, such as being a member electoral systems do not put food in bairns’ stomachs or of the London assembly, disbar a person from holding jobs into the homes of people who most need them in a dual mandate in Parliament. As the hon. Gentleman order to put that food in bairns’ stomachs. I suggest that rightly says, however, for list members of the London it is therefore more important for us to argue against assembly, that change can take place without any difficulty, and probe Ministers daily on the state of the economy. but for a first-past-the-post elected member—one of However, we are where we are; and we are debating the 14 of the 25 in that category—there needs to be a what we are. That is why I thought it right to table these separate election. I agree that it is a fundamental stupidity two new clauses for debate. of the system that needs urgent reform, but it is not I want fairness: it is something I came into politics exclusively an issue for the Scottish Parliament. for. I have always believed in fairness and I believe there is no doubt, as conceded in this debate, that there is no Mr Donohoe: I am extremely grateful to my Member accountability for these list members. My two new of Parliament for raising that point. Of course it is a clauses thus have considerable merit, but I shall listen serious point and it has to be addressed, because it carefully to how the debate continues. 177 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 178

Mr Reid: It will come as no surprise to the hon. Mr Reid: That was certainly an important reform of Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) that I will the electoral system. not support his new clause. He ended by talking about fairness, but that goes to the hub of the debate. What is Mr MacNeil: Removing choice? unfair about his system is that it would gerrymander the voting system in favour of one party—his own, the Mr Reid: If the SNP wants to call itself Alex Salmond Labour party. It is an extremely unfair system. That is for First Minister, it is perfectly entitled to do so. What what the debate should be about, but the hon. Gentleman it cannot do is confuse the electorate by having two did not touch on that anywhere in his contribution. names. One minute it is called the Scottish National party; the next minute it is called Alex Salmond for Thomas Docherty: I am fascinated by the hon. Gentleman’s First Minister. If only SNP members would make up new-found passion for stopping gerrymandering. Will their minds on what they want their party to be called. he remind us why he voted last week to give the Isle of Wight two seats? Mr Weir: What the hon. Gentleman is saying is very interesting. I seem to recall that his party registered the Mr Reid: The Parliamentary Voting System and name “Ming Campbell’s Liberal Democrats”, but, Constituencies Bill was— surprisingly, did not use it at the general election. Thomas Docherty: Gerrymandering. Mr Reid: I think that the law was changed. Mr Reid: It was a product of the coalition agreement. I understand that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire I was in favour of the first part of the Bill; I did not like chairs the all-party parliamentary group for the promotion the second part, but we made a coalition agreement. of first past the post. He has continually extolled the The Liberal Democrats liked part 1; Conservative colleagues virtues of the first-past-the-post system, but that is not liked part 2, but not part 1: that is what compromise my understanding of what his new clause actually means. and coalition is all about. I think that it would be more accurately described as promoting “first two past the post”. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire also said that people did not consider the voting system to be important. People may not be aware of the intricacies of the voting Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that at system, but the people of Scotland overwhelmingly least the alternative vote gives true believers in first past voted in the referendum for a proportional voting system, the post an opportunity to practise it? They can use so that is important to them. It was endorsed by the their votes only once if they want. They can write “1”, Constitutional Convention, of which the hon. Gentleman or “X”, and not use any subsequent numbers. It is was a member, and then, as I say, by the people of possible to use first past the post under an AV system, Scotland in a referendum. but the reverse is not the case.

Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Does the Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman has made a good hon. Gentleman agree that there is a particular problem point. with the party list system? Many advocates of proportional representation argue that it will make people more Mr Donohoe: I am going to have to accuse the hon. accountable. The experience of the system in Scotland, Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) of cherry-picking. however, has been that some people can bounce backwards He has only read part of my new clause. His problem and forwards from being constituency MSPs to being can be solved by paragraph (b) of the new section (4A) top of their party list—and back again, or not—so the proposed in subsection (6), which requires provision for public has little chance of dislodging them unless the “the two candidates with the most valid votes to be elected in such party does. Might there not be a better list system than constituencies.” the party list system? Mr Reid: Exactly. The two candidates with the most Mr Reid: That is a fair point. I am fully in favour of votes are the first two past the post. That is not first past proportional representation, but every electoral system the post. I think that the hon. Gentleman is signalling can be improved. One way of improving this system “two” to me. I will assume that that is what his gesture would be to move from closed to open lists, which means, Mr Hoyle. would give the electorate a choice. Another reform is also possible: if cherry-picking of constituencies by The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): regional-list Members is considered to be a problem, we I think that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire can adopt the system in Wales whereby no one can (Mr Donohoe) was signalling “first two past the post” stand both for a constituency and on the regional list. and nothing more. I am reassured, am I not, Mr Donohoe? That would remove the problem of cherry-picking at a Yes. stroke, because there would be no advantage for a regional-list Member in cherry-picking a particular constituency. Mr Reid: Thank you for that clarification, Mr Hoyle. In these constituencies two Members will be elected—the Fiona O’Donnell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree two who receive the most votes. That is not first past that we have already seen improvements, such as the the post; it is first two past the post. I do not think that removal from the list of the vanity party that was “Alex the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire understands his Salmond for First Minister”? own new clause. 179 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 180

Graeme Morrice: My understanding of the system is Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman takes the words out of that there are two candidates, and therefore two votes. my mouth: it would have been disgraceful gerrymandering Of course that is based on first past the post. It is not if the first-past-the-post system had been adopted in dissimilar to the system that applies to local government that election, because in an election where the people elections in England when there are several candidates voted for the SNP there would have been a Labour for several seats within a multi-member ward and electors Government—and not just a minority Labour Government, have several Xs to put on a ballot paper. but one with an overall majority. What is unfair about first past the post and first two past the post is that what Mr Reid: That is correct. However, two Members are counts is not the number of votes a party gets, but how elected: the first two. That is not first past the post. they are distributed. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire criticised the system for election to the Scottish Parliament in which Mark Lazarowicz: Does the hon. Gentleman accept the person who finished second in the constituency that if we do the electoral calculations, it is clear that might still be elected on the list, but the same would had the AV system been in operation for the Scottish apply under the strange system that he has come up Parliament, the Labour majority would have been even with in the new clause. higher? Mr Reid: There is no way of predicting what would Graeme Morrice: The hon. Gentleman has got this have happened, because we do not know how people wrong. There would be two candidates—there could be would have used their later preferences. The hon. two Labour candidates standing, or two Lib Dem, Tory Gentleman’s analysis is of interest, but I do not think or Scottish National party candidates—and the electors we can make any such assumption. would have two votes. I would vote twice, and put down two crosses for two Labour candidates. There is not a second candidate, therefore; there are two firsts, and the Fiona O’Donnell: Does the hon. Gentleman agree electors have two votes—the two crosses. that, once again, the constitutional cuckoo, the SNP, has benefited from a system drawn up by the Scottish Constitutional Convention, with which it did not even Mr Reid: Yes, but some people might not vote for engage? party tickets. This system is used in English local government elections, and it is very uncommon for the first two Mr Reid: I was certainly disappointed that the SNP candidates to get exactly the same number of votes. One did not engage, but it benefited from a system that had will finish first, and another will finish second, and widespread support throughout Scotland and was endorsed sometimes where there is a close result candidates from by the Scottish people in a referendum. different parties get elected. Mr MacNeil: I am listening closely to the hon. Mr Donohoe: Even under the first-two-past-the-post Gentleman’s arguments, and it is clearly game set and system, it is highly possible that if a party candidate is match against first past the post. In response to the unpopular for any reason, the electorate will choose one point of the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona candidate from one party and another from a different O’Donnell), does it not make the SNP victory all the party. better given that we won by a set of rules we did not even design? Mr Reid: Yes, that is possible, but there would still be two people elected, and the hon. Gentleman objected to 4.30 pm having more than one person representing a constituency. He expressed objections about regional list Members Mr Reid: The SNP won because the election was holding surgeries in his constituency, but under the fought on a fair set of rules—I hope that the hon. system he proposes there will be two people representing Gentleman will give the Liberal Democrats credit for every constituency, so there are the same possibilities participating in the Constitutional Convention and arguing for disagreements and people duplicating casework. I and negotiating with the Labour party to get a proportional find it illogical that the hon. Gentleman extols the system. If his party had not gone off in a huff and had virtues of first past the post, but proposes a different instead taken part in the Constitutional Convention, we system. might have got an even better system. He should be The first-past-the-post or the first-two-past-the-post thanking the Liberal Democrats for the efforts we made. system could be very unfair. In the last Scottish Parliament The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire was arguing election, the SNP got the most votes, and it rightly got that one of the flaws with the current system relates to the most seats. Let us consider what would have happened the number of MSPs who can turn up at health board if we had adopted first past the post, however. In the meetings in Ayrshire and Arran—he cited a figure of constituency section, the SNP got 33% of the vote and 24. We have had arithmetical disputes before, but I Labour got 32%, but Labour won more than half the calculate that 26 MSPs could attend. I have good news first-past-the-post seats—37 out of the 73 seats. Therefore, for him because the Boundary Commission has drawn if we had purely been using a first-past-the-post system, up the new boundaries for the next elections and only even though the SNP was the clear winner of the 19 MSPs will be able to turn up to those meetings. election, the next morning we would have found we had However, he does have a point, and if he looks at the a Labour Government with an overall majority, having Arbuthnott report, he will find where a solution lies. more than half the seats. Sir John Arbuthnott’s report was set up by the previous Government to examine the problems of non-coterminosity. Mr MacNeil: Disgraceful. He proposed that we should make the regional list 181 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 182

[Mr Reid] proportional system in the Scottish Parliament. That is the only fair way for the whole of Scotland to be boundaries natural boundaries, rather than have the represented in the Parliament. It is what the Constitutional current unnatural boundaries. So, for example, the whole Convention agreed and what the Scottish people voted of Ayrshire would be covered by one regional list. There for in the referendum, so I urge the House to reject this was a lot to be said for Sir John’s report. I did not agree backward-looking new clause and not to overturn the with every part of the detail, but it was a pity that the settled will of the Scottish people. previous Government did not take it more seriously. Importantly, the Arbuthnott commission said that when Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I the overall result is proportional, it is less important do not think that anybody in this House can doubt the that individual constituencies and individual regional tenacity of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire lists all have the same number of electors than it is in a (Mr Donohoe) on this issue. In the course of the past 12 first-past-the-post system. As the final result will be years or so, he has been absolutely consistent in his proportional, it is less important for each constituency contempt for list Members of the Scottish Parliament and list to be the same size. It would, thus, be better if and the whole concept of proportional representation. I the regional list boundaries for Scottish Parliament am sure that what he says about there being a large elections were drawn up first and constituencies were constituency for his views is true and I certainly saw a then fitted within the regional lists. That would allow us lot of people nodding along with his speech. I want to to get regional lists that are much closer to natural explore the issue today to try to see what level of boundaries than the current system does. support there is for his views, particularly in the Labour party. Mr Donohoe: Will the hon. Gentleman concede that The amendment was tabled in the name of the hon. the biggest problem, in a party sense, of not having Member for Central Ayrshire and in the names of five coterminous boundaries is that there is no accountability of his hon. Friends—a substantial and significant amount in respect of the list members, and that cannot be of Scottish Labour Members. An awful lot of Scottish overcome on the basis of what he has just proposed? Labour Members support the notion that this House should dictate the membership and voting arrangements Mr Reid: If the boundaries for the lists were natural for the Scottish Parliament. He also says that there is ones, we would have much more accountability. For more support in the Labour movement more widely. If example, Ayrshire could be put with Dumfries and that is the case, it alarms and shocks me and we should Galloway to form one regional list and we could, thus, hear more about it. If a substantial minority— have a much more natural boundary in south-west Scotland than we have at the moment. Mark Lazarowicz rose— Mr Davidson: I am listening with interest to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. He is arguing that if we have Fiona O’Donnell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? natural boundaries for the regional seats, it does not matter what size the individual constituencies are because Pete Wishart: I will give way to the hon. Member for we would have fairness overall. Such an approach would Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) first. be very much to the benefit of the party, as it is a very party-focused means of coming to an arrangement. The Mark Lazarowicz: I think that my hon. Friend the parties would be doing okay, but we could have an Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) and I are enormous discrepancy in the “share” that any individual going to make the same point. Arguments can be made—I voter has of an MSP.I could be in a seat where there are hope to make them in a moment—against the exposition 100,000 electors, whereas Orkney has just 14,000 electors, laid out by my hon. Friend the Member for Central and clearly it would be expected that the person with Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), but if the hon. Member for only 14,000 people to represent would provide a much Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) is going to better service. start playing the numbers game—we have had enough mathematics and arithmetic in the past hour or so—five Mr Reid: That is a fair point. I would not propose out of 41 means just under one eighth of the Scottish having constituencies with anywhere near as many as Labour MPs, or less than 12.5%. Let us not overdo that 100,000 electors. Off the top of my head, I recall that argument. the average Scottish Parliament constituency has about 55,000 electors, so the figure used would be close to Pete Wishart: I am grateful for that intervention, but that. Having individual constituencies that represent it still seems an awful lot—almost an eighth, and there natural communities would make the work of the individual are six signatories. It also seems to me that the numbers MSP much easier, because they would be representing a are growing. I saw the heads nodding in agreement with natural community, rather than a constituency that the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire and I suggest crosses a council or health authority boundary. and suspect that he has growing support. If he remains My preference would be to have the Parliament elected tenacious on this issue, his view might prevail in the by the single transferable vote system in multi-Member Labour party. That is the direction in which things are constituencies—the same system that we use for local going and that is what we are beginning to see. Government. All MSPs would then be equal and we would not have the problem of conflict between Fiona O’Donnell rose— constituency and regional list Members. I also outlined earlier how we could improve the present system. The Pete Wishart: I think that we have heard this point; is important thing, however, is that we must have a it on the same issue? 183 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 184

Fiona O’Donnell: It is. Pete Wishart: People are nodding their heads. I detect that this is becoming a real issue. Frankly, it scares and Pete Wishart: Oh, go on then. alarms me if that is the debate within the Labour party. Whether it is a substantial minority or a majority Fiona O’Donnell: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s within the Labour party who feel this way, the Scottish enthusiasm for the subject. If I might help him with the people need to know about this. They need to be aware maths, the equivalent proportion of Scottish National that this is the Labour party’s intention. These two new party Members would be seven eighths of one MP. clauses are totally wrong and it is appalling if a substantial minority in the Labour party believe this is the way forward. They would remove one of the central pillars Pete Wishart: We really are having arithmetic and of the Scottish Parliament—its internal democracy. They mathematics lectures today. would remove all the proportionality that has been I think that the momentum is with the hon. Member agreed and is the settled will of the Scottish Parliament. for Central Ayrshire. Opinion is moving in the same direction as him and I think it is starting to go with him. Fiona O’Donnell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? I looked around and saw some of the enthusiasm from some of his hon. Friends this afternoon and I think the Pete Wishart: I have given way to the hon. Lady Labour party has a genuine problem. I have a solution, already, so I will move on. however, Mr Hoyle, in which you might be interested. I understand that the Labour party is holding an important The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire and many of conference this weekend, so the hon. Gentleman should his colleagues want to return to the good old days of the get a day return—not the Caledonian sleeper—up to old Glasgow council, when something like 69 Labour Oban and have this debate with the Labour party. The members, out of 79, were elected on 48% of the vote. Scottish people need to know what the Labour party is That is democracy Labour-style—90% of members on doing. 40% of the vote. Thank goodness we will not be going back to that. People are saying that is right and that it is I believe that the Labour party is split from top to what they want and I believe that that underpins all bottom on this issue and that has to be resolved. I know these measures—the Labour party benefiting massively that up at Oban it will be the usual whinge-fest. from first past the post. In the past few years, this issue has consistently come Graeme Morrice: The SNP has a preoccupation with up. In the 10 years that I have been in the House, we the Labour party; why does not the hon. Gentleman have had these debates about Arbuthnott and other simply address the issue? matters. We were told that we could not call the Scottish Government a Government and that we had to call Pete Wishart: I am offering a solution so that the them the Scottish Executive. I remember the days of the issue can be resolved and fixed up once and for all. The timid, unadventurous Labour Executive, always casting Scottish people want to know what the Labour party their eyes southwards to London, awaiting orders, thinks. Labour designed this mechanism; let us see what instructions and directions about what to do, but those it thinks about it now. days have gone. We now have an SNP Government in Scotland and we will never again have the House of Mr Davidson: The hon. Gentleman has suggested Commons clicking its fingers and the Scottish Parliament that my colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for doing that dance. I look forward to that. Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), should take a train to Oban. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): (Pete Wishart) is so up to date with current political We are moving completely off the new clause and I affairs that he is unaware that the Labour party conference think we ought to get back to it. I know that the hon. is in Glasgow. I would be grateful if he would explain to Gentleman has been tempted by all the interventions, us exactly how being in Oban would help my colleague but we ought to stick to the new clause. to explain to his friends, meeting in Glasgow, why they should change their policy? Pete Wishart: I am grateful, Mr Hoyle. I do not think that the signatories to the new clauses Pete Wishart: We are having a few difficulties with singularly loathe the additional member system—they trains in this Committee. First there was the Caledonian also loathe the single transferable vote for local government sleeper and now there is this train to Oban. I will, of in Scotland and everything to do with proportional course, apologise to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire. representation. I say to him: “Take the train to Glasgow for goodness’ sake, but whatever you do, take that train, because we Graeme Morrice indicated assent. need to know the settled will of the Labour party in all this.” I suspect that the sentiment and views expressed Pete Wishart: That is their view. They want the death by the hon. Gentleman are gaining currency in the of PR in Scotland. Labour party— A few interesting things came out of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire’s contribution, the most interesting Mr Donohoe: And in the Tory party. of which was about list Members. I think he has to take this up with the Labour list Members in the highlands, Pete Wishart: He says that— in north-east Scotland and in mid-Scotland and Fife. I know that SNP list Members are particularly active Mr Davidson: And with the Liberals. within the larger constituencies and do a fantastic job. 185 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 186

Mr Donohoe: I shall try to be as quick as possible. I current arrangements. Those are their arrangements. did not touch on this in my speech, but does not the list When the Liberals were arguing in the Scottish Member have to notify the constituency Member before Constitutional Convention—hon. Members may correct they come in on a case or make notification of it? In the me if I am wrong—they would probably have been 12 years of the Scottish Parliament, in Ayrshire there arguing for STV. That would be the preferred option. has not been a single case brought to the attention of a AMS was Labour’s system, which the Liberals agreed constituency Member. with in order to ensure proportionality. For Labour Members to make such a fuss about AMS now is a bit Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman will have had his rich, given that it is their system. Our preferred system, own experiences with these issues. if the hon. Lady wants to know, is full single transferable An hon. Member has pointed out that there have vote. That is what we want for Scotland. been problems with list Members on a couple of occasions, but I am surprised that it is only a couple of occasions. Mr Weir: Does my hon. Friend notice a pattern? I List Members seem to co-exist with first-past-the-post understand that the Labour Front-Bench team is in Members on reasonably good terms. I recognise a number favour of AV for this place, but many Labour Back of issues and problems that have been identified by a Benchers are not. number of Members. Graeme Morrice: Further to my intervention earlier Pete Wishart: I am sure that Mr Hoyle would not in the debate, is the hon. Gentleman aware of the allow me to be tempted into discussing AV, but the mess situation of one Scottish National party MSP, Alex that Labour Members get into when dealing with voting Neil, who was admonished by the Presiding Officer of arrangements dumbfounds me. They seem to be for and the Scottish Parliament for giving the impression, despite against AV, just as they seem to be for and against the fact that he is the regional list MSP for Central proportionality in the Scottish Parliament. They are Scotland, that somehow he was a local constituency split from top to bottom on both issues, and they will be MSP for Airdrie and Shotts, which has its own directly found out when they are questioned on the subject in elected constituency MSP? the next few weeks.

4.45 pm Thomas Docherty: I appreciate that as the SNP’s Pete Wishart: It seems that the hon. Gentleman feels Chief Whip, the hon. Gentleman believes in absolute it necessary to name others who cannot defend themselves loyalty to a single position. It might help him to understand in this House. that we have a free vote on the issue because we believe in a broad consensus. As I said, I am astounded that there have been so few such issues. That case is probably notable because it has happened so rarely. First-past-the-post Members have Pete Wishart: I am no longer the Chief Whip, but I co-existed with regional Members in a friendly and thank the hon. Gentleman for promoting me back to consensual way.That is a feature of the Scottish Parliament that distinguished role. I look forward to the outcome that will continue. of a free vote in the Labour party. It will be fascinating. The hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) We will pay keen attention to who supports the hon. is right. There are difficulties identifying Members of Member for Central Ayrshire in all this. I hope they are the Scottish Parliament. I find it difficult to recognise true to their convictions—[Interruption.] Oh, it is not a first-past-the-post Labour Members in the Scottish free vote, we hear. Parliament, particularly those on the Front Bench, and I think the Scottish people have great difficulty recognising The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): a number of them, too. Whether or not Labour Members have a free vote is not relevant to new clause 1. Let us get back to the new Mr Donohoe: Name the MSPs. clause, and I am sure Mr Wishart would not want to keep repeating himself. Pete Wishart: I will name one MSP with lofty ambitions. He has the ambition to be the First Minister of Scotland. When he went out there, we found that 50% of the Pete Wishart: Indeed, Mr Hoyle. I hope I was not Scottish people did not recognise him, and another repeating myself, but I was interested in that free vote 33% just did not like him. concept. I would love to have seen a free vote on the matter under discussion. I hope that the hon. Member Fiona O’Donnell: I wonder which party in Scotland for Central Ayrshire will press the new clause to a the hon. Gentleman would say has the best record on Division so that we get an opportunity to see who is for constitutional reform—the parties in the Scottish and who is against. Labour is totally split on the issue, Constitutional Convention, Labour and Lib Dems who and the Scottish people need to see where the Labour delivered STV for local government, or an SNP party is in all this. We in the SNP will of course oppose Government who could not even deliver a referendum. the new clause, because we believe in fair votes and in the right of the Scottish Parliament to make its own The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): decisions and arrangements on voting and membership. Order. That is not relevant to the new clause either. That is how normal, self-respecting Parliaments do their business. Pete Wishart: The point was well made. The voting mechanism was not designed by the SNP, but we still won, which was remarkable. We hear Labour Members Mark Lazarowicz: I am sure that you will be pleased of Parliament down here disparage and knock the to hear that I intend to address the new clause, Mr Hoyle. 187 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 188

I want to put the case against what my hon. Friend No party can assume that it knows what the vote will the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) has be in five, 10, 15 or 20 years’ time, but the attraction—as proposed, and to put the case for a system of proportional my hon. Friends and others see it—of first past the post representation for the Scottish Parliament. The current might diminish dramatically if, let us say, the Scottish system should be retained. We could have an interesting National party at some stage got 35% of the votes in the academic argument about whether to have the additional Scottish parliamentary elections under that system. That Member system or a different form of PR, but AMS is could quite easily give it an absolute majority of seats, the proportional system that we have now in the Scottish which no doubt the SNP would claim as a mandate for Parliament, and I want to defend that system. Overall, independence. Those who suggest that first past the it has worked well, and it should be retained in the post will always benefit Labour, or any other party, are interests of Scotland. making a serious mistake if they maintain that position. The first argument in favour of that system—or, indeed, any system of PR for the Scottish Parliament—is about Cathy Jamieson: So far the debate seems to have fairness. I agree with the hon. Member for Argyll and centred on what is best for the political parties. Does my Bute (Mr Reid) on that. Some people seem to take the hon. Friend agree that one of the problems with the view that fairness is a luxury for politicians. I do not voting system we now have for local government, for accept that—fairness is something that we should all be example, is that people feel that they have lost the direct concerned about. Any system in which the seats that link with their elected representative? They prefer a one party wins can be grossly disproportionate to the system in which there is certainty; they know who to go votes that it gets is an unfair system. We have seen some to and do not feel that they are being passed from pillar of those distorting effects at the UK level, but at the to post. Scottish level the first-past-the-post system could have much more disproportionate effects, precisely because of Mark Lazarowicz: I agree. That is one reason why I the multi-party system in Scotland. We have four parties do not support STV for the Scottish Parliament or local in Scotland which, according to the opinion polls, get government, and I will come on to that point as it 6% or more of the vote—if we were to add the Lib Dems relates to the Scottish Parliament in a moment. and their 5%, we would have a five-party system. With that We should bear in mind some of the arguments made breakdown between the parties, it would be quite feasible in 1997—those of us who have been around for some for a party with just 30% of the vote to get an absolute time can remember them—on why it was important majority in the Scottish Parliament. Whatever our that there should be a vote on the system of PR in the perspective might be, that cannot be justified or defended. referendum on the Scottish Parliament, rather than Some of my right hon. and hon. Friends take the view putting a first-past-the-post system to voters. That is that because—as they believe—Labour tends to gain under precisely because it was recognised, even by some people that disproportionate system, we should support first past who were hostile to or sceptical about PR, that if the the post against any form of proportional representation. electors had been offered a choice of a Scottish Parliament However, I do not accept that first past the post always with a first-past-the-post system, some might have voted benefits the Labour party. I am old enough to remember against it because they would be concerned that one the 18 years of Conservative Government, when the party in one part of the country might at some future Conservatives, never with the majority of the votes cast, stage dominate the Parliament, which would have nevertheless had a majority of the seats in Westminster, undermined support for the yes vote in the 1997 referendum. and sometimes a very large majority, so Labour does not always gain from the first-past-the-post system. Pete Wishart: Looking around the Chamber, I see It would also be dangerous for my Labour colleagues four Labour Members who are against the hon. Gentleman or anyone else to assume that first past the post would and three who support him. Does he feel that in the always benefit Labour in Scotland. As the Liberal Labour party he is beginning to lose the argument in Democrats have discovered, no party can assume that favour of PR? its recent levels of support will be maintained indefinitely. Parties go up and down, and we cannot necessarily Mark Lazarowicz: I am not sure that I understand assume that if the Scottish Parliament had first past the the hon. Gentleman’s point— post but no regional list system, the constituency votes in the last parliamentary elections would have been the same, Pete Wishart: There are four Members against him because people might have chosen to vote differently if and three for him. they had had only one vote instead of two. We cannot assume that Labour would always win an overall majority Mark Lazarowicz: I think that we are going down a in the Scottish Parliament under first past the post. road that will not take the argument much further Mr Donohoe: Does my hon. Friend understand that the forward. last time the Liberals were in power, which was in 1921, When the constitutional convention drew up the plans they were opposed to any form of proportional for a Scottish Parliament, there was a strong case that representation and voted in this place for the system the Parliament should be elected by a system of PR, that we have today? and there is certainly no case for changing that, even if we look at it simply from the narrow point of view of Mark Lazarowicz: Indeed. One thing that my hon. Labour’s party political advantage, which, as I have Friend and I share on this issue is consistency. He has said, we should not do. It is also about how democracy been consistent in his opposition to PR; I have been can be improved and how the public relate to the consistent in my support for it, so at least we share political process, as my hon. Friend the Member for something in this debate, unlike the Liberal Democrats. Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) has said. 189 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 190

[Mark Lazarowicz] additional Member system is not perfect, but in my view it has worked relatively well. Some anomalies need If we accept that there should be some system of PR to be addressed, but that does not mean that the entire for the Scottish Parliament—I know that there are system should be thrown out. Members on both sides of the House who do not accept I believe the Scottish Parliament has been a success, that—the obvious question is which PR system should and it has been a success under the current electoral be put in place. There is a wide range of PR systems, as system. Clearly, I would rather there had not been an there is a wide range of electoral systems generally, and SNP minority Government for the past four years in there are arguments for and against all of them. My Scotland, but the way for my hon. Friends and my party hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun to change that preposition is not to change the voting has pointed out some of the disadvantages, and I agree system to suit what we believe is our short-term political with her about the STV system that currently operates gain, but to get a lot more votes, which is what I believe in local government. Some council wards in my will happen on 5 May. constituency, for example, now have 28,000 voters, and so local councillors are in no sense local in the way that John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) they had been, and I presume that that is the case in her (LD): I rise briefly to reach out a cooling and, I hope, constituency. reassuring hand to the fevered brow of the hon. Member If we had an STV system for Scottish Parliament for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) regarding elections, Edinburgh would have four MPs for the entire his concerns about the comments made by the hon. area, but no local MPs. There might be two Labour Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe). Members, one Tory and one SNP, according to present Before I do that, I make one observation. I had the opinion polls, but that would certainly not allow any of privilege of doing a great deal of the Committee and them to have a local affiliation in the parts of Edinburgh Report work in the other place on the original Scotland where there is a strong local identity, such as my constituency Bill, and I acknowledge that we made one mistake. We of Edinburgh North and Leith. STV would certainly agreed to allow the Scottish Parliament itself to decide not be the right answer. I do not think that anyone and work out the relationship and work loads between would seriously go for the complete proportional list all the different MSPs, and that there should be equality system in which seats are allocated to parties simply on between the list and the constituency. It should be the the basis of the number of votes received nationwide. Parliament’s job to work that out, but it would have That would give too much power to the parties, so no been helpful had we given it a steer at the beginning as one would support that system. Therefore, the additional to a better balance, because I recognise some of the Member system, which combines the constituency element, comments about squatting, although the majority of so that people know who their local MSP is, and the list MSPs do an exceedingly good job and the system top-up level which balances out the disproportionate overall brings fairness and proportionality. In the other effects of the first-past-the-post system, is in my view place, we lost a vote that my noble Friends—at that the best compromise, which is why it should be maintained. stage—put for an open-list system, which I would have There are certainly problems with how some list preferred, but we ended up with a broadly fair system Members operate. I could refer to one Member in my that has worked well and come of age. region and the way in which she has presented herself in Now, let me reassure the hon. Member for Perth and the run-up to Scottish Parliament elections, and other North Perthshire regarding the comments of the hon. examples could undoubtedly be provided from across Member for Central Ayrshire, who moved the new the country of MSPs from different parties acting that clause. The key is in his comments regarding history. way. First, he invoked the election of 1910, when 83% of In my case, I have been fortunate, but by and large we Scots voted, as opposed to 2010, when only 64% did. Of have had no great problems of representation in working course, he forgot to mention that we did not have with list MSPs. There are times when we have political universal suffrage at that point, and, indeed, that no disagreements, but there are also times when we can women had the vote or could stand for Parliament. So, work together in the interests of the area. Perhaps I his first suggestion is, I think, that we should get rid of have just been fortunate, but I do not think that there women from politics. have been the dramatic difficulties that my hon. Friend Secondly, the hon. Gentleman’s new clause sets out the Member for Central Ayrshire has suggested. “Two members” with “two votes” and two posts. Of course, we had that system in British politics for many 5pm years during the century before last, with some very For all those reasons, I see no case for changing the interesting results, so there is nothing new there. Indeed, additional Member system for the Scottish Parliament, many people had two votes in different constituencies if and I remind Members—with reference to the comments they happened to have gone to Oxford or Cambridge. of my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona So, the clear direction of travel of the hon. Gentleman’s O’Donnell)—that the system for election to the Scottish thinking is back to the future, and there are only two Parliament was not dreamed up out of thin air by explanations for that. Either he is the last surviving relic someone in the Labour party; it was a product of a long of first-past-the-post-osaurus rex, or his contribution period of discussion and consultation involving not just was a wonderful exercise in irony. I believe that he is a Labour and the Lib Dems, but the Greens and other grandmaster in irony, and that explains the new clause. small parties, and not just political parties, but local government, the trade unions and a wide range of civic Mr Davidson: It is true to say that the devolution Scotland. Together, they wanted to come up with a settlement achieved at the time of the referendum system that they felt would pass the test of time. The represented the settled will of the Scottish people, but 191 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 192 that does not mean that there can never be any further That means that the party machine, which controls change of any kind. In our debates on the Bill, we have access to the list, has a much greater say than the identified difficulties and we have tried to resolve them electorate in who goes to the Scottish Parliament, because and to move things forward by making changes. On the the electorate can only vote for the list—they have no question of the electoral system, we first have to ask say in who is on it. The loyalty of those who are on the whether there are any problems and, if there are, whether list must therefore be directed not towards the electorate there is a solution. but towards their party managers; otherwise, they run I believe that there are some difficulties with the the risk of being put off the list next time. existing system. For example, the public have never entirely understood how losers become winners. They Mark Lazarowicz: I do not quite see the strength of see people standing for election in a constituency and my hon. Friend’s argument. In the Labour party, the losing, only to pop up as an MSP anyway. The situation members choose the ranking of people on the list, but is made far worse when some of those who lost pretend they choose the candidates for first-past-the-post seats to be the MSP for the constituency in which they stood as well, so I am not sure how the party is given more and were defeated. That was certainly the case for a power in one situation than in the other. Earlier, he considerable number of years in Glasgow Pollok, where highlighted various deficiencies in the list system, and Johann Lamont was elected by first past the post. he may be right. However, those may be arguments for Kenny Gibson, from the SNP, who came second, then changing the additional member system, but surely not pretended to be the local MSP. Tommy Sheridan, from for getting rid of it entirely. the horizontal road to socialism party, who is now detained elsewhere, also pretended to be the MSP for Mr Davidson: Let me come on to that. At the moment, that constituency. That was undoubtedly unhelpful, I am identifying particular difficulties. My hon. Friend because different people would turn up at local meetings, perhaps misunderstands my point about the allegiance events, protests and campaigns pretending to be the of people on the list. He is absolutely right that, certainly MSP. This is a genuine issue that needs to be addressed. in the Labour party, it is the membership who determine We have already heard the outrageous story of Alex someone’s place on the list. However, it is often the Neil printing posters saying that he was the MSP for party hierarchy who determine whether that person Airdrie and Shotts when patently he was not. That was enters the ballot to decide whether they are placed on a deliberate attempt to deceive the electorate. The fact the list, so it is about how that is handled. Increasingly, that there is an election coming up in the near future party managers have had a tendency to try to control can only be coincidence, but that was none the less a who is on that list. deliberate attempt to deceive. We also had a situation in the Govan constituency, the one beside mine, where Mr Weir: I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman Nicola Sturgeon camped out. She has now won that is saying. Can he clarify how someone in the Labour seat, but she did so partly because she had pretended to party can get to the stage of being able to stand for any be the list MSP for that constituency. These are all clear seat whatsoever? Surely he would have to be approved difficulties in the present system and they need to be by the party in some way before he is allowed to go looked at. forward for a seat. I am struggling to see the difference. Related to that problem is the cherry-picking not just of issues but of individual items of casework, especially Mr Davidson: The hon. Gentleman is obviously struggling in relation to immigration cases but to others as well. As to see the difference because he is unaware of the extent an MP, I have had a string of cases in which MSPs have to which the Labour party’s internal democratic mechanisms taken up people’s complaints about immigration, told are a wonder to behold. I do not necessarily see why I them that they could do something about it, led them should share in private grief. down a path that led nowhere at all, then told them to come and see me. By that time, a considerable period Mr Reid: I do not want to bring back memories for had passed and some of the people had consulted the hon. Gentleman, but did not his party hierarchy lawyers based on what they had been mis-told. The stop him standing as a constituency MSP? same thing has happened with social security cases. We need a change in the rules that would stop list MSPs, in particular, cherry-picking. Mr Davidson: Indeed it did. I can think of several other Members of Parliament here today who were Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman has listed certain prevented from standing for the Scottish Parliament instances of transgressions by SNP regional list Members. candidates list. That was in the days when new Labour What is the Labour party doing? was at its most sectarian. Fortunately, we have moved on, and that is to be welcomed. The hon. Gentleman is Mr Davidson: My understanding is that list Labour absolutely correct—that was a difficulty. The Labour MSPs are perfect in every way and have done nothing party’s initial lists were drawn up in a sectarian fashion, incorrect or outside the rules. I presume that there are and therefore a lot of people who would otherwise have no examples of Labour MSPs misbehaving in such a been considered suitable for consideration by the party way; otherwise, we would have heard about them. The membership were unable to come forward. fact that the SNP has not raised a single example of a Another difficulty about the existing system is the Labour MSP doing anything untoward is an indication way in which vacancies are filled. It is absurd that when of where the balance of advantage in this argument lies. somebody on the list stands down, disappears, passes A further difficulty with the existing system is the away or decides that they want to do something else, the way in which getting on the list is so key to success in person who gets that place is simply the next one on the the proportional representation section of the ballot. list. There is no vote and the public are not involved in 193 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 194

[Mr Davidson] votes at all, she will be returned. She does not need to turn up, because she is going to be elected. That seems any way, unlike the situation for individual constituency fundamentally unfair and unreasonable. Members. That is inappropriate and a fault in the system. Mr Weir: On that basis, will the hon. Gentleman call Mr MacNeil: Is not the point of that process to retain on Sarah Boyack in Edinburgh Central or David Stewart the proportionality in the Parliament that was established in Inverness and Nairn to stand down, because they are by the voters at the election? in exactly the same position? Mr Davidson: That is a natural result of the system—I understand that—but that is what I am unhappy about. Mr Davidson: I am perfectly happy to say that I want It does not seem fair or reasonable that at some point the system to change so that no party can do that. The after the election, during the term of the Scottish hon. Gentleman’s question is a bit like asking somebody Parliament, somebody who is not an MSP should, as if whether they are in favour of electricity being privatised, by magic, become an MSP without the involvement of and if they say no, asking why they do not use candles. the electorate in any way. We operate in the world that exists. Although one might not have wanted a change to happen, one must Mr MacNeil: Does the hon. Gentleman think it in accommodate the new position once it has. It is therefore any way important, then, that the proportionality expressed perfectly reasonable for Labour candidates to stand in by the electorate is maintained in the Parliament? whichever way is appropriate. That does not stop us Mr Davidson: These are difficult issues. I accept that saying that the system ought to be changed. that is a valid point, but I am unhappy about the idea The question is whether the solution that is proposed that by-elections do not take place. By-elections are an is right. It has some merits, such as establishing a clear important way of telling us what the public think at any link between individual voters and the people who are particular moment. I do not know whether people elected in their constituency. I have some reservations present are aware of what happened recently in Barnsley, about having two Members per constituency. I can see which was enormously significant. how that proposal has come forward for administrative Mr MacNeil: Remind us. convenience. I can see the merit of splitting each Westminster constituency either north to south or east Mr Davidson: Okay. The party that had been second to west, so that each person is represented by only one at the general election was not second, and it did not MSP and one MP. win the seat. I can also see the merit—I am disappointed that this The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): has not come up before—of seeking gender balance, by Order. I am not quite sure what is the relevance of having two votes for each Westminster constituency, Barnsley. The Committee is well aware of the Barnsley with one for a man and one for a woman. The Scottish result without Mr Davidson going into further detail. Parliament lacks the gender balance that is desirable. In 5.15 pm the first selection of candidates for the Scottish Parliament, the Labour party chose to twin the first-past-the-post Mr Davidson: I accept that decision, although I regret constituencies so that one man and one woman would it because this is an important point. Its relevance is be selected. In the list, men and women were put alternately. that, if there were a vacancy in the Scottish Parliament, With individual reselections and so on, that practice has under the existing system there would be a by-election, lapsed a bit. However, I think that we were the only as in Barnsley, if it was a first-past-the-post seat, but party to do something like that. The lack of women not one if it was a list seat. The electorate in a constituency representatives in the other parties is a major deficiency. that I will not name had a way of telling the country Changing the system would be advantageous in that what they thought of the Liberals. I think that that was regard. important. We are much better and wiser for knowing that. I will not say the position in which the Liberals My hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire came, and I will not say what would have happened if (Mr Donohoe) mentioned voter confusion. The system the Democratic Unionist party, the Scottish National of having two Members per constituency, however they party or the Welsh nationalists had stood. [Interruption.] were provided, would avoid the situation of 25 or They would have come ninth if they were lucky, and 28 MSPs turning up to meet the health board. That is that is assuming that the Social Democratic and Labour an absurdity. It is grossly inefficient and simply serves to party did not stand. I understand that they might well muddy the waters. We should therefore consider changes have been beaten by the 1st Barnsley Girl Guides and and a better way. the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band had their candidates It is often argued that proportional representation stood, but I must move on. The point is that by-elections encourages more people to vote. In fact, the UK voting allow people to express a view as progress is made system that is most proportional is for elections to the throughout the term of a Government. The existing European Parliament, which have the lowest turnout. system does not allow that. The next most proportional is the local authority system, It is important in a democracy that the electorate can which has the second lowest turnout. Then come the get rid of people. I have a list here of people whom I Scottish elections, for which there is an element of first would quite like to get rid of. However, it will be past the post, which have the second highest turnout. impossible to get rid of Nicola Sturgeon, for example, The highest turnout is for elections to Westminster, at the forthcoming election. She is standing in her which are the least proportional, so there is a clear constituency as the first-past-the-post candidate and correlation between first past the post and electoral she is at the top of the SNP list. Unless the party gets no turnout. 195 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 196

Several hon. Members rose— as the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) said, involves compromises. Let us not sanctify the electoral Mr Davidson: Those facts help my case, so I am quite system with a false impression that a popular uprising happy to take interventions on that point. demanded it.

Mr MacNeil: I fear that the hon. Gentleman might Pete Wishart: AMS was Labour’s preferred system at be confusing cause and effect. Surely turnout is more the constitutional convention. What is interesting about about the media attention given to whatever election the hon. Gentleman’s remarks—I hope he will come to happens to be occurring. The European elections get this point—is that he believes that this place should the least media attention, if any at all. dictate to the Scottish Parliament the ending of the current voting arrangements and the existence of regional Mr Davidson: Well, that is one man’s point of view. Members. Would he like to impose an end to proportional Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): If the hon. representation on the Scottish Parliament? Gentleman’s argument were correct, surely local government elections would have had immensely large turnouts Mr Davidson: I havenae decided what is the best when first past the post was used for them, and the system. I have outlined faults in the existing system. Do turnout would have dipped immensely when they changed I believe that this House has the right to decide the to the single transferrable vote. That was obviously not voting system for the Scottish Parliament? Yes, I do, the case—there were poor turnouts before the change. actually. Mr Davidson: Turnouts have dipped since the change Pete Wishart: You think it should? to proportional representation, as I understand it. The situation seems quite clear. Mr Davidson: Yes, I think it should, in exactly the same way that the Scottish Parliament decided the Mr Reid: The numbers went down, but that has voting system for local authorities without any discussion nothing to do with the change to the voting system. The or agreement with them. If the Scottish Parliament is to elections are on the same day as the Scottish Parliament be allowed to decide its voting system, so should local elections, so the turnout in those elections effectively authorities. It is good enough for the SNP and its allies determines the local government turnout. to impose a system on others, and what goes around comes around. Mr Davidson: Is it not interesting that in debates about changing the voting system we were always told Mr MacNeil: May I tempt the hon. Gentleman, who that changing to a proportional system would boost the I know is a committed Europhile, to extend that logic? turnout? In fact, if anything, the reverse is true. I accept If the Scottish Parliament foists a system on local much of the argument made by the hon. Member for government, and if the UK Government foist a system Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) about media coverage, on the Scottish Parliament, would he want the European and I recognise that the situation is more complex, but Parliament to foist an electoral system on the House of those who argued for proportional representation never Commons? made that point. They suggested a clear correlation that has been demonstrated to be untrue. The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. That is a temptation, but this is about the abolition Graeme Morrice: Is my hon. Friend aware that at the of regional Members. We are in danger of being dragged general election in May, turnout under first past the around Europe, Scotland and the UK, so I think we post increased by about 4%? It is going in the right should get back to new clause 1. direction. Mr Davidson: A very bad boy was trying to tempt me Mr Davidson: That is an excellent point, and I am down the highway, Mr Hoyle. Earlier, I heard an SNP glad that it has been made. Member shouting that they wanted Scotland to join the euro as soon as possible, but that is nothing to do with Pete Wishart: On a point of clarification about the this debate either, and I therefore do not intend to bring supremacy of first past the post, as the hon. Gentleman it up. would have it, is he saying that no other electoral system The deal was a backroom deal and the old politics, in throughout the world brings out a greater number of exactly the same way as the coalition was the old voters for a national general election? politics. Just as the Liberals were bought off for the Scottish Parliament, so they have been bought off with Mr Davidson: I will not say that, because I suspect the promise of AVfor this Parliament. I noticed yesterday hon. Members could cite the case of Albania or somewhere a whole string of Liberals wearing “Yes to AV” badges. similar. However, in our case it seems pretty clear that I will not mention that now, but come back to it in a there is a correlation between turnout and the simplicity later debate— and comprehensibility of first past the post. Let us not confuse ourselves about how the system Mark Lazarowicz rose— that we have in the Scottish Parliament came about. It was not on tablets of stone brought down from the The Chairman of Ways and Means: Order. We are mountain by Moses; it came from a backroom deal going to discuss the abolition of regional Members. We between the leaderships of the Labour party and the are not going to be dragged back or come back to that Liberals to ensure that they had a majority. That is no other matter later; we will stick to new clause 1. We need more than has happened between the Liberals and the to make progress. I think Mark Lazarowicz was about Conservatives in the coalition. It is a shabby deal which, to intervene on you, Mr Davidson. Are you giving way? 197 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 198

Mr Davidson: Yes. 5.30 pm Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful to my hon. Friend As far as I am concerned, however, we need to for giving way and I shall certainly not tempt him off consider whether the system we have works, or whether the straight and narrow. On how the electoral system what has been proposed is a better system. Many people for the Scottish Parliament was adopted, the fine details in my constituency, and those I have talked to in other were a result of detailed discussion within the constitutional constituencies—even those represented by Scottish National convention. Surely my hon. Friend accepts that the final party Members—believe that there is a great deal of system was endorsed by the electorate. The principle of confusion in the system at the moment. The person who having a proportional system for the Scottish Parliament stands against the constituency Member they vote for was worked out at length through debate and often ends up elected under the regional system, having consultation—it was certainly not the product of a been defeated by the choice of the electorate under the backroom deal, but the product of many months of first-past-the-post system. It is right that people should discussion and public consultation. As he knows, the be able to choose. I think that the best system would Labour party conference voted 2:1 in favour of the final provide for two MSPs in the constituencies of MPs in deal after the final agreement between the parties in the this place, and if Parliament wishes to remain with 129 convention. Members—or whatever—it should put in place a top-up system chosen by the parties, because that is what it is The Chairman of Ways and Means: Order. We do not about; we should let the parties choose people to be need reports on the Labour party conference, so I think their central representation and then to top up. we will get back to new clause 1. We discussed this matter here when we set up the system, and in the Scottish Constitutional Convention Mr Davidson: None the less, my hon. Friend’s point before the system was proposed. At that time, the relates to whether it is possible, without inviting thunderbolts argument was that there would be fewer Members who from on high, to consider changes to the electoral would deal with central policy matters and act as a system for the Scottish Parliament. It seems to me that group in Parliament, not shadow Members scurrying that is desirable. We regularly examine other elements about trying to build credibility by snatching cases from of the Scottish Parliament and aspects of devolution—I MPs, councillors and the MSPs elected under the first- remind hon. Members that devolution is a moving feast past-the-post system, in the hope that they can build and not static—and so we should examine the electoral enough credibility to challenge that Member at the next system. ballot, which is what is happening. It is not giving I do not intend to vote for new clauses 1 and 2, which people good representation, and it is not giving them were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Central the benefits of a proportional system in the Chamber Ayrshire, because I am not convinced that his proposals that can be seen in many of the European countries I are the correct way forward. However, there is something have travelled to during my time on the European wrong with the existing system, and it needs to be Scrutiny Committee. In those countries, parties act as changed. central blocks in Parliament, working up policy, arguing in the Chamber, sitting on Committees and proposing Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): policy innovations, not running around the country Anyone who looks at the amendment paper will see that tripping over everyone’s feet trying to win local votes. I am a signatory to new clauses 1 and 2. We have had the knockabout stuff about whether this Parliament has Mr MacNeil: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman or has not the right to decide the structure of the underestimates voters and the public when he says that Scottish parliamentary electoral system or indeed its they have difficulty distinguishing between list Members, membership, but people were perfectly happy for this who might have stood and lost, and those who have Parliament to overturn the Scotland Act 1998 at the won on a constituency basis. I have not come across first time of calling, by increasing the number of Members anyone who has had any difficulty understanding the to 129, when the Act originally said that we would drop process. to a reasonable number after the initial period. The argument was made that people in Scottish Parliament Michael Connarty: I would not want to accuse the thought they needed 129 Members to take up all of the hon. Gentleman of trying to distort my words; I just one and a half days in which they actually debated in think he might not be swift enough to understand them. their Chamber, and to ensure that enough people turned I said that people resent it. They know that they did not up at 5 o’clock every Wednesday to vote to make sure choose the Member who lost under first past the post, they got the tick in the box. and they are not happy that that person then turns up It never made sense to me, but we allowed that as a list Member. They believe it is important that when change; Parliament was perfectly happy to change it. I they make a choice under first past the post, they believe that Members of all the parties with Members in choose between candidate A and candidate B. I take the Scotland were happy to go along with that process. If it point made earlier that every party does it, but it is was good enough then, it is certainly good enough now wrong because it distorts the will of the electorate. to consider whether the system in place for proportional representation—with its list Members—is the correct Mr Weir: The hon. Gentleman is making the point way to proceed. I am sure that some, such as my hon. that several of his colleagues have made about people Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith who lose under first past the post and come back on the (Mark Lazarowicz), would like to proceed to a totally list. However, does he not accept that it is a different proportional system. I believe that that has always been electorate? Regional seats have seven or eight first-past- his bent; the single transferrable vote has always been the-post seats in it, so they are not being elected by the his choice of political electoral system. same electorate. I do not understand his objection. 199 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 200

Michael Connarty: The point is that when the electorate can be recommended for its clarity.Having two constituency then see that person’s behaviour in the list system, they Members for the Scottish Parliament and one Member are puzzled. I give the example of the Lothian Members, for this Parliament would be correct and clear, and who are centred mainly in the city of Edinburgh. Where people would like it. do the SNP list Members have their office? They have it What has happened is that people in this place do not in a little village called Whitburn in my constituency—well care whether the electorate like it or not. This the key out of the city centre and the locale near the Parliament. point: they do not treat the electorate properly. I have to That might have something to do with the fact that say that the SNP argument is completely flawed. It has every time we have an election, the person who loses for nothing to do with whether SNP Members respect the the SNP stands against my MSP under first past the electorate; it is about whether their party can get an post, and that constituency happens to cover the village advantage out of it. It is the same with all minority of Whitburn and areas in West Lothian. That clearly parties. If my party acts in the same way, it is equally distorts not only the electoral system but the use of wrong. I therefore believe that new clause 1 deserves resources allocated to list Members, basically to try to serious consideration and support. If parties want to back up the challenge under first past the post. New top up to a certain number because they cannot run the clause 1 would remove that problem by providing for place without 129 Members, that is where the additional two Members for each MP seat—it could be split in half Members should come from. We should call these people or done some other way. That would give people the what they are—party-nominated Members. That is what sort of representation that they like. happens in Germany: people are nominated by their I have no doubt that colleagues in all the political parties to appear on the list to stand for Parliament or parties in Scotland believe that when people come to see for the European Parliament. People are clear about them, they know that they are their representatives and what they are getting, but what they are not getting is that they are accountable to those people. In the Scottish representation. parliamentary system, however, people do not really On new clause 2, the use of resources must be controlled know because of the number of layers involved. They in some way. In Scotland, people are running party might go to the list Member, and if they get nothing machinery in constituencies using the list system resources. there they will try the first-past-the-post Member and To have an office in Whitburn, someone should be vice versa. The list Member might first back up the representing all the Lothians. For that office to be used person and then take a different view. Then it might only for one Member who is trying to become the come to seeing the Member of Parliament to find out first-past-the-post Member for the Linlithgow constituency whether they will back them up. is the wrong use of resources—and we must find some Graeme Morrice: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, way of controlling that. who represents a constituency in the local authority area where I have a constituency. I certainly share his Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman makes that views and concerns on this matter and I empathise with allegation, so can he confirm that this is a parliamentary his viewpoint. Does he agree, however, that the real office for list Members and not a party office? problem is the absolute confusion among the electorate about the difference between constituency MSPs and Michael Connarty: My understanding is that it is an regional list MSPs? Within Scotland, possibly 99% of office used by the Member of the Scottish Parliament, the electorate, if asked, would not know who all their who happens to be the person who keeps standing for regional list MSPs were. election to the constituency under first past the post. That may be coincidental; it may be that it is so difficult Michael Connarty: That is an easy question to answer. for the other Lothian Members to get public transport It is quite clear that most people in this Chamber, if from the centre of the city to the office that they use it asked to list them, would not know all the regional list solely as a telephone base. MSPs in their area. That is not the way I like to see the It is important for us to bear in mind the aspiration of issue, however. It is not so much about confusion among the House of Commons that list Members should represent the electorate; it is more that the electorate are not well a party which will use them in a way that bolsters the represented. It is not because they are confused, but process in the Parliament, rather than shattering and because the system invites certain behaviours that run scattering them throughout Scotland and sending them counter to good representation. People do not know scurrying after votes in the hope that they might at who is accountable to them and it is quite clear that list some point secure a first-past-the-post seat, or perhaps members are not accountable to the electorate. They are secure some proportional extra seats for their party by accountable to their party, because it is the party that being seen to be more active. That is not the vision that I puts them on the list and into the system. was sold in the Scottish Constitutional Convention, it is Mr MacNeil rose— not the vision that was presented here, and it is not the vision conveyed to me by Scottish National party members Michael Connarty: I am not giving way yet. at that time. Why are SNP members now willing to If this is about the electorate—I hope it is, rather accept a second-class option rather than delivering what than about the manipulation of party machinery—it is we promised to the people of Scotland? important that the electorate know who is representing them. The system at the moment is not clear—indeed, it Stewart Hosie: I asked a simple question. I will repeat is deliberately confusing for the electorate. It has nothing it. Is that office a list parliamentary office paid for with to do with the intelligence of the electorate; it is a parliamentary resources to enable list Members to do matter of how all the political parties use the list system. their parliamentary work, and is it within the region to We should genuinely consider moving to a system that which they are elected? 201 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 202

Michael Connarty: The arrangement is perfectly legal I must confess that during my time in the Scottish under the present system. I am saying that the system Parliament I was a regional list Member. Therefore, I should be more constrained and more disciplined, and must defend that cadre. Many Members from all the that the resources should be more focused. I believe that main political parties in Scotland have served with the public are questioning why the office is there, what distinction as regional list Members, including Peter its purpose is, and whether it constitutes a distortion of Peacock, who served on the Scotland Bill Committee, what is due to them, the electorate. I keep returning to and Lord Foulkes, who was mentioned in our debate this point. What did we promise the electorate? What yesterday. We should not accept any general diminution we promised them we have not delivered, and we should of their contribution to the Scottish Parliament, as they therefore consider doing something better. The new have played their roles. clauses represent serious challenges to the existing system, and should be treated as such. 5.45 pm It was clear from the start of the Parliament that the Pete Wishart: Notwithstanding the fact that AMS role of list Members had not been fully thought through. was the Labour solution in the constitutional convention, I was interested to hear it suggested earlier in our debate there is another elegant solution to deal with a number that there had been a vision for the role of list Members of the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. Under STV, there in 1999, because when the Scottish Parliament convened would not be two distinct categories of Members of the it was not clear that there was a specific job description. Scottish Parliament. However, I presume that he wishes Over time, that role has emerged. There have been to end proportionality and return to Labour fiefdoms various initiatives to set out the responsibilities of such as Glasgow council, 90% of whose members received constituency and list Members, including the Reid principles 40% of the votes. Is that what he wants? of the former presiding officer, George Reid. The Government believe that the Scottish Parliament Michael Connarty: I should like Glasgow city council— should regulate the relationships between Members of which is a wonderful council—to be properly resourced, the Scottish Parliament, and that it is not appropriate rather than having its budget cut by 3.7%. That is what for this Parliament to regulate those arrangements. the Scottish Government have just done, at a time when That is why we cannot support new clause 2, which the city needs more resources. Other areas with a large seeks for this Parliament to set the financial constraints proportion of SNP councillors are experiencing very to be placed on Members who do not abide by such small cuts. That is another abuse for which the people rules. An example was cited of a regional Member of will take the Government of Scotland to task, and will the Scottish Parliament who is said to have breached take the SNP to task in particular. the rules, but it can also be said that a process was Proportionality has not worked in our system. I do followed, a complaint was made, and the presiding not approve of the single transferable vote. I do not officer has dealt with it, and that therefore there is no believe in that kind of proportionality, because I think evidence to support the view that the Scottish Parliament that it moves so far away from the idea of accountability is not capable of making its own rules and arrangements that the public reject it, and I do not think that we will for the regulation of MSPs. get very far with any other amendment that appears to I was interested in many of the comments about distort what we have in the House of Commons at Members standing on both regional lists and in present. When a Member of Parliament is elected, he or constituencies, and the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) she is accountable. People know whom they elected, highlighted a number of examples from within the why they elected them, and how to get rid of them. If Labour party. In 2006, I witnessed the passage of the we cannot introduce a system that provides some credibility, Government of Wales Bill, when the then Labour the Scottish Parliament will go spinning off into the Government argued that legislation must be put in future with no credibility at all. I therefore hope that the place in Wales to prohibit candidates standing both on Committee will pass new clauses 1 and 2. the list and in constituencies. Interestingly, such proposals were never brought forward in relation to Scotland, and shortly thereafter Labour changed its internal party David Mundell: I welcome you back to the chair, rules to allow the same candidate to stand both on the Ms Primarolo. I hope that, unlike the hon. Member for list and for a constituency. We now see that a number of East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell), you did not have a sitting MSPs are moving to stand on the list, so if they sleepless night in anticipation of the debate. Given the fail to be re-elected by one route, they have every chance level of interest that has been expressed, the hon. Member of being re-elected on the regional list. for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) has clearly done the Committee a service by promoting a debate on these issues. Stewart Hosie: Is that not the argument that was being used earlier: that losers can become winners? Why Let me say at the outset that the Government will not would a Labour Member make that case, when the support the new clauses, principally because we believe Minister is explaining that that is precisely what the that a fundamental part of the devolution settlement Labour party is now doing? that was voted for in the 1997 referendum was the agreement that the Scottish Parliament should be elected David Mundell: Well, I find it— on a proportional basis. There is a range of debates to be had on issues relating to proportionality, and some of those issues have emerged this afternoon, but it is Mr Donohoe: Will the Minister give way? clear that a fundamental aspect of the Scottish Parliament is that it is a proportionally elected institution. David Mundell: Yes, indeed. 203 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 204

Mr Donohoe: May I make it perfectly clear that I am Michael Connarty: I am glad that the Minister gave opposed to the position referred to by the hon. Member way after that terrible slur on the Labour party. We are for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie), as is my constituency talking about the views of Members of this House, and party and as are many other constituency parties across it is very important that we take them seriously and do Scotland? not start messing around. It is clear that the parties had a view. I recall Donald Dewar saying that the idea was David Mundell: I fully take on board what the hon. that, as in Germany, the leader of the list would be seen Gentleman says, and I praise his consistency on this as a symbol of what the list stood for. All the arrangements issue, but others who have been critical of the regional were proportional in Germany, but because we had this list system now want to use it to save their political divergence between the first-past-the-post and list systems, careers, and I regard that as hypocrisy. our arrangements became totally confused in the eyes of the electorate. We are not seeking party advantage; Mr Weir: I count six Labour MSPs now standing for we are looking for the electorate’s advantage. the list who are currently first-past-the-post Members, which says something about their confidence in the David Mundell: I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s result of the coming election. consistency on this issue, but I was confused by one of the contributions from the hon. Member for Kilmarnock David Mundell: As has been said, there has been a and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who was part of a change from the view that Members should not stand Labour-led Scottish Government who introduced the on both the list and in constituencies to a position single transferable vote into local government in Scotland. where that should be done when it is in someone’s Much of the argument that I have heard today did not self-interest. provide evidence that that was done on the basis of support from within the Labour party. As one Member on the Opposition Benches pointed out, it was also Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): I apologise done without consulting people across Scotland. On the for not being here for the debate before now, but I wish point that the hon. Lady did raise, may I say, for to clarify one matter. I hope the Minister will recall that information purposes, that when a council by-election in the first Scottish Parliament elections Donald Dewar is required, the STV system used does not guarantee stood as a candidate for Anniesland, in addition to ongoing proportionality? One of the problems with being No. 1 on the Glasgow list. A number of prominent STV systems is that by-elections are difficult and complex first-past-the-post candidates also stood on the list, so matters. this is not a new procedure in the Labour party—it has been going on since 1999. Mr Davidson: A moment ago, Mr Kettle accused members of the Labour party of coming to a position David Mundell: As I recall, the reason given for based on self-interest. Given that he is in an alliance Labour Members taking that approach was that they with another bad lot to promote an alternative vote were encouraging people to vote on the list; they were referendum, despite neither party preferring AV as an seeking to demonstrate that prominent people were on electoral system, it can hardly be said that other people the list and so it was an important vote in which to are pursuing their self-interest in this matter. Might I participate. add that, to be fair, the Liberals welcome AV, because they predict that they will have a better result than they Mark Lazarowicz: Will the Minister remind us whether achieved in Barnsley and will at least come second in there are any Conservative list MSPs standing for a the referendum? first-past-the-post seat in the forthcoming elections? The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means David Mundell: Indeed there are, but the Conservative (Dawn Primarolo): Order. May I add that I would like party has been clear and absolutely consistent in its the Minister to return to discussing the new clause? policy. It has not changed its policy to suit the electoral needs of individual constituency MSPs who fear for David Mundell: Thank you, Ms Primarolo. I will take their future. on board what you say and, as ever, I note the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Some of what he said in his Pete Wishart: The Minister rightly says that the contribution was helpful, in that there is an acceptance, Conservatives have been consistent about this—the list following the Arbuthnott commission’s report, that some has saved the neck of the Conservative party in Scotland. form of review of electoral systems in Scotland is Has he any idea what the Labour Front-Bench team’s required. The Arbuthnott commission suggested that position is on this matter? We have not heard a contribution that should take place post-2011, and the Government from Labour Front Benchers on this; all we have heard share that view. are the siren voices of the “first-past-the-posters” at the back. Labour seems to be split from top to bottom on Mr Donohoe: I am sure that the Minister will concede this issue, but does the Minister have any idea as to its that nothing I am proposing today would come into view? effect until after this year’s elections.

David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman probably shares David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman has proposed a my belief that the Labour party view will be what is in very specific change to the electoral system for the the interests of the Labour party, and not necessarily Scottish Parliament. It would mean that two Members what is in the interests of the electorate in individual would be elected from each constituency other than the constituencies in Scotland. three constituencies that have been identified. Although 205 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 206

[David Mundell] 6pm Mr Donohoe: On the basis of what has just been said, it seems to suggest that everyone would have two votes I am almost of a mind to press the new clause to a vote. in those three constituencies, the new clause does not appear to show what would happen to the second of Let me make some points to sum up. I would argue their votes. He has set out his intentions in this debate, that this has been one of the better debates on the Bill but the provisions are technically defective. However, I that we have had across the piece. It has at times been advise him, and the Opposition Members who have humorous and it has been good-humoured, which is expressed clear views about how they would change the unusual in some respects. It has also at times been electoral system for the Scottish Parliament, to take useful and interesting to be able to draw out some of my part in any review that is forthcoming on the nature of long-held points of view. I am conscious that in these that electoral system. That is one basis on which the circumstances—given that this debate is just the Government reject the new clauses. beginning—we should withdraw our proposal, and so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion. Cathy Jamieson: I am listening to the Minister with Clause, by leave, withdrawn. interest. Is he actually offering that very review that he is talking about? If so, when will it take place? New Clause 3

David Mundell: The date of the next Scottish Parliament MARITIME POLICY election has changed as a result of the Fixed-term ‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows. Parliaments Bill, and the Government have indicated (2) In Schedule 5, section E3, leave out— that a review of the implications for the Scottish Parliament (a) the Coastguard Act 1925”. will be required. A review of the voting system for the (3) After section 90 insert section 90A as follows— Scottish Parliament elections could form part of a “Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Scotland) wider review of issues relating to the Scottish Parliament. 90A (1) The Maritime and Coastguard Agency is to be treated as a Cross-Border Public Authority for the purposes of Mr Davidson: May I just clarify a point? The Minister sections 88 to 90. said that the proposal put forward by my hon. Friend (2) The funding, operation and planning authority of Maritime the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe) is not and Coastguard Agency facilities in Scotland shall reside with the clear on the question of what would happen in respect Scottish Government and the appropriate Scottish Minister. of people having two votes. May I refer him to the (3) These parts of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency wording? New clause 1 states: which are the responsibility of Scottish Government shall be “each elector to cast one or two votes of equal value, with no known as the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Scotland). more than one vote to be given to any one candidate, in constituencies (4) The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Scotland) will be returning two members”. responsible for maintaining and upholding domestic and It continues: international laws and obligations in the Scottish Waters. “the two candidates with the most valid votes to be elected in such (5) For the purposes of this section, the Scottish Waters are as constituencies.” defined by the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundary Order 1999.”.’.— So I understand that the reference to people having (Mr MacNeil.) “two votes” applies only to the constituencies that are Brought up, and read the First time. not the three identified. Mr MacNeil: I beg to move, That the clause be read a David Mundell: I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s analysis, Second time. but I do not think it stands up to legal scrutiny in that The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means regard. (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Mr Donohoe: Can the Minister just tell me why? I New clause 4—Economic incentives for the Scottish have read that provision at some length and I am clearly maritime industry— of the opinion that it covers the points that he says it does not. ‘(1) The Scotland Act 1998 is amended as follows. (2) In Schedule 5, section E3, the words “Financial assistance David Mundell: The interpretation of that provision for shipping services which start or finish or both outside Scotland” are replaced with “Financial assistance for shipping is that people in the Western Isles, Orkney or Shetland services which both start and finish outside Scotland.”.’. could still have two votes. New clause 12—Scottish maritime boundaries— Mr Donohoe: No. ‘(1) In section 126(2) of the 1998 Act, after “Council”, insert “and with the Consent of the Scottish Parliament”. David Mundell: That is a clear possible interpretation (2) At the end of section 126(2) insert “A boundary order shall of that provision. The hon. Gentleman is better advised be issued in 2012.”.’. making his case not on the technicalities of the wording, Mr MacNeil: Throughout our proceedings, we have but on his strong beliefs about this issue. heard claims from the Tories and the Liberal Democrats On new clause 2, I have made clear the Government’s that this Bill is the greatest transfer of powers from view that it is a matter for the Scottish Parliament to Westminster to Scotland in more than 300 years. To regulate the conduct of its Members and the relationships ensure that it is truly a transfer of powers, I propose between list and constituency Members. On that basis, several additions that will see the Scottish Government we cannot accept the new clause. gain more control over Scotland’s maritime future. 207 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 208

We seek to devolve the operation and funding of the According to the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, Maritime and Coastguard Agency to Scotland, to remove the seas and coastlines are getting more congested, restrictions in the Scotland Act 1998 that prevent the ships are getting larger and the weather is getting worse. Scottish Government from providing incentives to With that information in mind, it surely makes sense to the shipping industry in Scotland and to ensure that the implement a division of labour and allow the MCA in Scottish Parliament agrees to any movement of the England to focus on Southampton and London and border instigated from London. I am aware that those leave Scottish waters to Scotland. proposals were not recommended in the Calman Our new clause removes the restrictions in the Scotland commission’s report, but we cannot expect Calman to Act that prevent the Scots Government from running have thought of everything. Anything might have done the coastguard. Once we place it in the category of a from Calman, I suppose, but, of course, it does not cross-border public authority, we will remove nearly matter because the Government have picked and mixed £5 million of coastguard co-ordination centre operating the recommendations as they were made. costs from the Department for Transport’s budgets New clause 3 was sparked by the Government’s proposals alone. That would give us the opportunity in Scotland to cut the coastguard service throughout the UK. Those to secure a proper coastguard service for Scotland. In proposals seek to leave three to four co-ordination the past year, we have heard that contracts to provide centres south of the border and only one 24-hour life-saving helicopters have been bungled completely. co-ordination centre and one part-time centre in Our tugboat services have been cut to save money, in Scotland—there are currently five. The proposals were line, we are told, with these austere times, but that not meant to be debated in this House and were certainly unfortunately exposes Scotland to severe gaps in coastline not presented to the Scottish Parliament. That shows a coverage. On a side note, we want to know what will blatant disrespect not only for the Scottish Parliament happen to our tugs when these front-line services come and Government but for MPs in this House who, to up for contract renewal in September. take my case as an example, will be affected by these If Members look closely at the proposals, they will decisions. see that we are not attempting to change international Through my proposals, we seek to alleviate the financial agreements or safety legislation. We are simply seeking and administrative burden on the Department for Transport to ensure that decisions regarding the Scottish coastline by taking the Scottish portion of the coastguard service are taken in the best interests of Scotland. In short, they out of its realm of responsibility. The decision on the move power from Westminster to the most democratic future of the coastguard in Scotland should, rightly, institution representing Scotland—the Scots Parliament. take place in Scotland. Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): If Mark Lazarowicz: Has the hon. Gentleman assessed the hon. Gentleman’s new clause were successful, would the views of the trade unions representing those who he envisage more than one full-time station in Aberdeen, work in the coastguard service or the seagoing community or would one suffice in his view? about whether they want to see the coastguard service split up in that way? Mr MacNeil: I would envisage far more than one full-time station in Aberdeen. Mr MacNeil: Yes, I have asked people who work in the coastguard and, yes, they do want to see this happen. This will not be the first time that the House of Commons has heard of the concept of change and of control moving away from the MCA. In 1989, the Isle Mark Lazarowicz: Just to be clear, I did not mean of Man formed its own coastguard after the UK unilaterally somebody in the coastguard service whom the hon. decided to shut down the coastguard co-ordination Gentleman knows. I asked whether trade unions collectively centre in Ramsey. The Manx Government—perhaps —at least at a Scottish level—support the change. this shows what happens when there is more local control—rightly decided that they should no longer Mr MacNeil: I hope that the trade unions would act depend on the United Kingdom to protect their coastline in the best interests of their members’ employment and and therefore created their own coastguard. That coastguard the coastguard service throughout Scotland and try to has five stations open around the Isle of Man and has maintain coastguard stations in Scotland. I am quite retained close ties with the Liverpool maritime rescue sure that if the Scottish Government—regardless of co-ordination centre, which I would like to remain their party—were in charge of this matter, the savage open. cuts would not be happening. The Government of the Isle of Man took the right Scotland has an estimated 60% of all the coastline in decisions at the right time to ensure that their coast was the UK, so the Scottish Parliament and Government secure. Surely, it cannot be the will of the Committee to should surely be the primary body that decides the future deny Scotland that same inalienable right. This is not of the force that protects mariners and the community. the first time that a potential coastguard authority We have already seen the beginning of the process with move has been presented. In its illustrious 189-year the passing of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, history, the coastguard has been under the Board of and we must continue that through these proposals, Trade between 1923 and 1939, the Ministry of Shipping which would ensure that the Maritime and Coastguard from 1939 to 1940, the Admiralty from 1940 to 1945, Agency in Scotland enforced Scots law on environmental the Ministry of War and then the Ministry of Transport matters. We seek to have the MCA fall in line with the from 1945 to 1964, the Department of Trade from 1964 local operation of the police, health service and other to 1983, the Department of Transport from 1983 to devolved agencies. 1997 and finally, the Department for Transport from 209 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 210

[Mr MacNeil] costs could be saved if there were an incentive for ships to land their goods in Scotland. The professor of maritime 2002 to this date. All we seek to do is move that one step research at Edinburgh Napier university, Alf Baird, put further and ensure that the Scots coastguard reports it succinctly when he said that directly to Scotland. “the present reality is that firms located in Scotland are considerably worse off in international transport cost terms compared with Mr Tom Harris: I agree with the substance of what firms located close to hub ports in the south east of England…firms the hon. Gentleman is saying about the effects of the in the central belt of Scotland are between 15-23% worse off, while firms in the highlands are 22-33% worse off, and firms cuts to the coastguard system, but would he be proposing located on remote islands between 37-63% worse off…From a this particular change if the cuts to the maritime coastguard purely Scottish perspective this therefore raises the question—is service were not being made at the Department for the current method of serving Scottish industry’s global import Transport? He is in danger, I think, of opening himself and export needs through remote UK ports sustainable in the up to accusations of opportunism if this move is a long run? Or, in other words, will rising domestic UK transport response to budget cuts rather than a point of principle. costs (rail as well as road) make Scottish industry even less I am not aware that this point of principle has been competitive in global markets than it is today, leading to further raised by the SNP in the past. job losses”— that is the important point, as we want to keep people in employment— Mr MacNeil: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman agrees with me on the substantial thrust of my argument “in manufacturing and reduced competitiveness?” and I hope to see him with me in the Lobby as a result. Would I have done this if such a proposal had not been Fiona O’Donnell: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman made at the moment? Perhaps not, but given the safety is glad to pause for breath. He has said that he is concerns, this matter is pressing. Given that the process proposing these new clauses because Calman missed started without any risk assessment from the MCA, them out, but did he put forward any submissions to the despite the relevant Minister telling me at the Dispatch Holyrood Bill Committee or the Select Committee on Box that there had been such an assessment, I think Scottish Affairs about these matters? that politics has to meet the pressing concerns among Royal National Lifeboat Institution crews, people who Mr MacNeil: The most appropriate place for the used to be involved in shipping, working coastguards measures is in the Bill, which is why I have chosen to and a variety of people across the community—certainly bring them forward now. in the highlands and islands and, I imagine, further Professor Baird has asked rather straightforward down to the Clyde and over to the Forth and, indeed, questions that should be addressed by a specific maritime Shetland. policy with regard to seaport provision in Scotland and New clause 4 would redress a bizarre part of the the impacts of such a policy for trade and economic Scotland Act that prevents the Scottish Government development. Surely, Scotland should be able to entice from creating incentives for the maritime industry in shippers to send goods to our ports. As the home of the Scotland. Currently, the Government of Scotland have large northern ports of the UK, we are well placed to the ability to incentivise travel for maritime journeys provide efficient ports for shipping goods throughout that both start and end in Scotland, which has meant Scotland and, perhaps, the rest of the UK. We should at that a successful pilot project on the west coast for the least be given the opportunity to try. However, there are road equivalent tariff has been brought to the Outer restrictions in place and all we can do is hope that Hebrides and to Coll and Tiree. We hope that policy companies land their goods there. This issue is at the will continue, as it has done quite a lot to help the crux of our main argument. Scotland needs to have the economies of those areas in a time of severe economic economic levers to promote growth, which would also downturn. help with the aggregate growth of the British Isles. Without the ability to entice business to Scotland, we Maritime policy is vital to Scotland as we are responsible will lose a real chance to grow sectors of our economy for 70% of all the fish landed in the UK. Aberdeen is that could provide a counterweight to other portions of home to the North sea oil industry and lands nearly the Scottish economy. Our new clauses would ensure 4.5 million tonnes of cargo annually from approximately that the Scottish Government have the ability to promote 8,000 ships. Clyde port lands 7.5 million tonnes of the Scottish shipping industry and Scottish ports. cargo and Stornoway port in my constituency has 200,000 people travelling through it each year. The ability to control the maritime economy is surely vital to what is a 6.15 pm maritime nation. It is vital to secure future growth in My final new clause concerns Scottish maritime borders. the Scottish economy. New clause 12 would ensure that the agreement of the The figures that I have presented for the Aberdeen Scottish Parliament was needed for any future change and Clyde ports are small in comparison with Southampton, to Scotland’s maritime borders and that a new border which lands 75 million tonnes of cargo annually.Currently, order would be made next year. To those who think this the shipping industry coalesces around the south of an insular, politically driven clause, I ask this question: England leaving little else for the rest of the UK. It is “Why is the Scottish Parliament not part of the decision- peculiar that most of Scotland’s goods are transported making process in determining Scotland’s borders?” to the south of England and then driven into Scotland. This new clause deals specifically with the Scottish With ever-increasing fuel costs and more congested Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999, which moved motorways, surely that is not a good idea. The cost of Scotland’s maritime boundary north by several degrees moving goods to Scotland will invariably increase as the giving 6,000 square miles of water to England. The costs of transportation increase, and we propose that Government never consulted the Scots Government or 211 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 212 the Scottish people about that. I understand that an politically united with. Indeed, the aggregate gross domestic Order in Council was made and discussed in the UK product of the British Isles is higher due to the independence Parliament, but I was not in the House in 1999. The of autonomous areas around the UK, such as Ireland, Scots Parliament has debated the matter in earnest, and the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. I note that although jibes were passed between the parties—as is their Governments have not applied to be absorbed into inevitable—the outcome was clear: the UK Government the UK. were dismissing that brand new Parliament and no one All the hallmarks of the great devolution dividend really knew why. are falling apart around us. The coastguard service is to In the Scots Parliament debate of 26 April 2000, John be cut as the Scottish seas are becoming more and more Home Robertson, MSP, tabled a motion stating: congested, and VAT has risen to 20%. “That the Parliament notes the terms of the report by the Rural Affairs Committee, The impact of the Scottish Adjacent Michael Connarty: Before the hon. Gentleman disappears Waters Boundaries Order 1999 (SP paper 42), in particular its off the map of the maritime borders of the UK, may we dissatisfaction and concern about the level of consultation carried return to the subject in hand? As someone who represents out prior to the introduction of the boundaries order, that the the busiest port in Scotland, Grangemouth, it concerns introduction of a boundaries order appears not to have identified any inconsistency with the Civil Jurisdiction (Offshore Activities) me that the ships that come in and out of it travel more Order 1987, and that the amount of fishing activity in the in non-Scottish waters than in Scottish waters to reach disputed area does not appear to have influenced the Order, and that port. Dividing the forces that need to be gathered further notes the Committee’s recommendation that the Secretary to fight the terrible cuts in the entire UK coastguard of State for Scotland should either introduce a new, revised service that are coming from the Government and hiving Order, or support a Bill calling for a revised boundary proposed off Scotland would not greatly advantage the people in the House of Commons by Archy Kirkwood MP.”—[Scottish who come in and out of the port that I represent. Is it Parliament Official Report, 26 April 2000; c. 10.] not better that we stand together and fight the cuts than Archy Kirkwood is now Baron Kirkwood of Kirkhope. try to divide into two different land masses and two The Liberal Democrat MSP Mike Rumbles said different Governments? “The secretary of state’s view can be justified only if he believes that changing the boundary sets an unwelcome precedent. Mr MacNeil: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman In my view, that is an entirely negative and unnecessary approach. knows that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I He could have taken the opportunity to demonstrate positively am also sure that he would like to see a busier port in that both the UK Government and the Scottish Executive are Grangemouth and a Government able to incentivise prepared to work in partnership to smooth out difficulties such as this that have emerged as a result of the Scotland Act 1998. It was greater activity in Grangemouth. I therefore expect him a mistake.”—[Scottish Parliament Official Report, 26 April 2000; to support my new clauses. c. 32.] These measures will mean that the Scottish Parliament After the debate, the Government were lambasted in and Government can get on with the job of making the press, with constitutional expert Alan Perry calling Scotland better and allow the rest of the UK to focus the Government’s reasoning into doubt. In the Litigation on what it considers to be important. This is a litmus Review, he wrote: test that will show Scotland which of its MPs stand for “Without any real prior consultation or warning, the order Scotland and which of them focus on party advantage. I effectively removed some 6,000 square miles of sea off the east of intend to press new clauses 3 and 12 to Divisions. Scotland from the Scottish to the English jurisdiction…The government claims that it has simply drawn an ’equidistance’ line Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): I shall between Scottish and English waters in conformity with international speak mainly on new clause 3. I am rather bemused by law…This claim is disingenuous in the extreme.” the contribution that we have just heard on new clause 12. Mr Perry, who has 25 years’ experience and mostly The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) works on public international law cases, said there was has presented a dangerous argument, and I am not sure no general rule in international law that equidistance whether I totally understand it. was a proper basis for such a line. He asked: I have always understood that the current boundary “Must we then conclude that this dreadful blunder is simply an was agreed by international negotiation in 1707. The example of monumental incompetence?” Scottish border used to go down as far as Newcastle I seek to correct that blundering incompetence with my and in some respects almost as far as Bolton, I think, new clause. I cannot think of any reason why the Scots but things have changed. I know that the SNP has a Parliament—the elected voice of the people of Scotland— hang-up about the oil industry and the fact that what it does not have the right even to be consulted regarding sees as its rightful share has been stolen from it. However, proposals to move our borders. Surely, devolution means there are much more serious issues to be discussed that the House has given real powers to the Scots today. Parliament and not piecemeal powers because of fears The hon. Gentleman appropriately raised the issue of about particular Governments. the coastguard. I know that his coastguard station in Tonight’s vote will be a litmus test of Scots MPs in Stornoway is one of the stations under threat. It is right particular—a marker that will, perhaps, ring in history. for him to fight for it, but it is not right to extend the There is no reason to oppose my new clauses, especially argument to where nationalists tend to end up—that the last one, as they help Scotland. The House has to the only way to solve a problem is to move it to stop holding us back in the name of the Union. Some Scotland. There is a serious issue around the reorganisation say that the political Union has done great things to of the coastguard. He knows as well as I do that in benefit London but very little to benefit the whole of Scotland there will be just two stations—the maritime Scotland, and perhaps I am one of them. I would say operating centre, which it is proposed will be in Aberdeen that London has benefited more from those it is not in my constituency, and either Shetland or Stornoway. 213 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 214

[Mr Frank Doran] have seen the current Government and the previous Labour Government produce for the UK. Of course, My understanding is that Shetland did not figure in there is an election in the way, so that will be the main the original Government proposal, but a certain amount consideration. of influence within Government has seen Shetland on If the coastguard system is to be upgraded to modern the list. I hope the hon. Gentleman wins his battle to standards, where will the necessary money come from? save the Stornoway station. That battle is entirely If the hon. Gentleman was successful with his new appropriate. Apart from anything else, the fact that in clause, there would clearly have to be some transfer of the Western Isles there is a preponderance of Gaelic money from the UK to pay for the existing system, but speaking and Gaelic place names means that, if there is not for upgrading it. The system that I hope will be any risk in that area, it is essential that the geography is based in my constituency at Aberdeen, once the consultation properly understood. It is important to make that point. exercise is over and the investment has been made, will serve not just Scottish waters, but almost half the Mr MacNeil: Given what the hon. Gentleman has UK—it will be capable of serving the whole UK. Would said, surely he understands my argument that it would that be on offer in a system run under the narrow be better for control to lie in the Scottish Parliament nationalist view that the hon. Gentleman is taking? I do and with the Scottish Government. Since 1999, the not know. Scottish Government have been either SNP or Labour-led. I need to know, and the Committee needs to know, My new clause would remove the Maritime and Coastguard where the money will come from to upgrade and modernise Agency from the clutches of the Conservatives, whose the system. It is not clear that that money exists in the tendency seems to be to cut. Would the hon. Gentleman Scottish Budget. If the SNP Government cannot afford prefer to leave the agency with the Conservatives? to build any new schools and are not able to fund local services properly, how will they modernise the coastguard Mr Doran: My argument is that a problem is not system, which is essential for the safety of our maritime solved just by moving it to Scotland. There are fundamental fleet, our sailors and our fishing industry? The hon. problems with the coastguard—for example, most of Gentleman is well aware of the dangers inherent in that the equipment that it uses is 40 years out of date. There industry. There are more industrial accidents and deaths is new technology available which is necessary for proper in the fishing industry than in virtually all the rest safety on our seas. The money needs to be invested. of industry in Britain put together. The most dangerous Given the present financial situation, one of the few industry in Britain depends on the coastguard, and many ways that money can be invested, sadly, involves the operators in the fishing industry are based in his closure of a number of coastguards. I have been told by constituency. workers at my own coastguard that with the new technology, If the new clause is part of a campaign to save the Aberdeen could cover the whole of Scotland, but the hon. Gentleman’s own coastguard station, fine. I can point that I made earlier about the Western Isles is accept it on those terms, but if it is a serious attempt to recognised. The issue will not be resolved simply by change the system, it must be rejected. asking for it to be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. I am by no means in favour of everything proposed in David Mundell: This is a debate on an important the consultation paper published by the Government, issue, and in many respects I share the sentiments but what is needed is a properly co-ordinated national expressed by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North system, which we do not have at present. We have (Mr Doran). If the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an groups or pairs of coastguard stations which can Iar (Mr MacNeil) is raising the issue to ensure that it is communicate with one another, but in the event of a debated and his concerns are heard, then I accept his major disaster or a major incident, it is difficult to see right to do so. However, if he is seriously suggesting how we could get the full benefit of a national system that the coastguard service should be devolved, then and the investment that we need to make by separating obviously the Government cannot accept his proposal. the Scottish service from the rest of the UK and allowing The point to be made is that this matter was not that to operate on its own. brought before the Calman commission; nor was it I was heavily involved in the aftermath of the Piper brought before the Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee Alpha disaster, when the coastguard played a pivotal or the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs as role—I do not know which other stations were involved. something that he had considered, along with the other The service then was very similar to what it is now, and changes that he proposed. Indeed, I am not even aware there was not the capacity to involve the whole of the of the matter being raised as part of the so-called coastguard operation throughout the UK. Given what national conversation—something that you will have we have seen in other countries in recent years, it is heard about in these exchanges, Ms Primarolo—which possible that that facility may be necessary in the future. was promoted by the SNP Government in Edinburgh As I have said, the way to resolve a major infrastructure with the primary purpose, it would appear, of furthering problem is not to cut it off and devolve it to Scotland, the cause of independence at public expense. which is a blinded and fundamentalist view of how we should function. 6.30 pm We need a co-ordinated system throughout the UK. If agreed, new clause 3 would devolve the funding One of the key weaknesses of breaking up the system is and management of coastguard services to the Scottish what the Scottish Government would or could do with Parliament and a new Marine and Coastguard Agency it. Like many people, I am suspicious about the fact that (Scotland) would be formed. A consultation is currently the SNP Government in Edinburgh have made no attempt under way on proposals for modernising the coastguard to give us a proper Budget for the next three years, as we service, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen North said. 215 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 216

The Government are inviting comments from staff, through his points about it, although the matters that he partner organisations and the public, and the consultation raised would have merited further discussion, as part of is on our proposed blueprint for the future structure of the fuller Calman process or the Committee’s considerations. Her Majesty’s coastguard. We are confident that the He made important points about incentivising the use concept would produce a nationally networked coastguard of remote points, but this is not the appropriate moment service that was resilient, effective and efficient. However, to introduce that without the sort of scrutiny and the Government have recognised—including the Prime analysis that we have seen for other clauses in the Bill. Minister, in an exchange with the hon. Member for Na New clause 12 deals with Scottish maritime boundaries. h-Eileanan an Iar, which I saw—the considerable strength It seeks to require the consent of the Scottish Parliament of feeling on the issue in certain parts of the United to any order made under section 126(2) of the Scotland Kingdom, and have therefore extended the consultation Act 1998, and to require a boundary order to be issued period for an additional six weeks. Indeed, given the in 2012. Again, the hon. Gentleman will be aware that relevance and importance of the issue, my hon. Friend the Calman commission did not recommend that provision, the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the Member and as far as I am aware it was not raised with him. for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning) had hoped to be present for this debate, but he is now travelling to Pete Wishart: The Minister keeps going on about Stornoway and Shetland as part of an ongoing consultation things not being raised by the Calman commission, but and dialogue. He has met Members throughout the nor was Antarctica or appeals to the Supreme Court. country, given the concerns that have been raised. The Minister cannot have it both ways. The Government The proposals include the establishment of two nationally are introducing some stuff that was not in Calman, so networked maritime operations centres in Aberdeen surely they can consider other stuff that was similarly and the Southampton-Portsmouth area. There would not in Calman. also be six fully integrated sub-centres located at Dover, Falmouth, Swansea, Liverpool or Belfast, Stornoway David Mundell: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, the or Shetland, and Humber. With the exception of Dover, issue of Antarctica was fully considered by the Scottish the sub-centres would operate in the daytime only. I Parliament’s Bill Committee and the Scottish Affairs stress again that the current proposals for coastguard Committee. It was not simply plucked out of the air and modernisation are out to consultation. No decisions dealt with in an amendment in this place. have been taken. Scottish interests will be taken into account when weighing up the needs of Scotland and I understand the SNP’s dogmatic opposition to the the rest of the UK. However, as has been said, the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999 and simple transfer of powers would in no way guarantee its view that if Scotland had more ocean under its how they would be used, what approach a future Scottish control, that ocean would benefit from SNP policies, Government would take to the coastguard, or our ability but I am afraid that it is not a view I subscribe to. As the to produce a nationally networked coastguard service. SNP knows, the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order has two effects. First, it determines the boundary It is important to note that coastguard activities are of waters that are to be treated as internal waters or the interlinked with maritime services generally. They are territorial sea of the UK adjacent to Scotland. That is very much an international activity. The parameters of relevant to the definition of “Scotland” in section 126(1) many coastguard functions are largely determined by of the 1998 Act, which is used for the purpose of merchant shipping law, so if the former were devolved exercising devolved functions and the extent of the while the latter as a whole remained reserved, there Scottish Parliament’s legislative competence. Similar would be potential for much confusion and either overlaps provision is made in legislation relating to Northern or gaps in functional coverage of the substantive law. Ireland and Wales for the purposes of their devolution The Maritime and Coastguard Agency is an Executive settlements. agency with no separate legal existence from the Secretary Secondly, the order determines the boundary of those of State for Transport. It has a large number of waters to be treated as sea within British fishery limits responsibilities other than those relating to the coastguard adjacent to Scotland. That is relevant to the definition and search and rescue functions. For example, it deals of “the Scottish zone”—in section 126(1) of the 1998 with merchant shipping and acts on behalf of the Act—in which the Scottish Parliament has legislative Receiver of Wreck. It is not clear from the new clause competence to regulate sea fisheries in accordance with whether the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar the EU’s common fisheries policy and where fishermen intends Scottish Ministers to assume responsibility for are subject to Scots law. Scottish Ministers also have all those functions—although given his views on such various Executive functions that are exercisable in the matters, I suspect that he does intend that—or simply Scottish zone in relation to matters such as licensing for those relating to search and rescue at sea. and planning. The Commission on Scottish Devolution, on which Crucially, the order defines boundaries off both the this Bill is based, did not review the coastguard service; west and east coasts using the median line mythology therefore this Bill is not the place for discussions about recommended by the UN convention on the law of the it. That is the purpose of the ongoing consultation. I sea. It is always interesting when we find the SNP in urge the hon. Members for Na h-Eileanan an Iar and disagreement with the UN because it does not suit its for Aberdeen North, along with all those with an interest purposes. This is the standard international mythology— in this matter, to make their views known as part of that methodology for defining water boundaries. It is illogical process. to use it off the west coast but deploy a boundary based New clause 4 would devolve funding arrangements on historical practice off the east coast. The Government for shipping services. I have to concede that the hon. have no plans to redefine the nautical boundaries between Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar enthusiastically sped Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. We cannot 217 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 218

[David Mundell] Robertson, Angus Tellers for the Ayes: Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Pete Wishart and accept that a boundary Order should be issued in 2012 Williams, Hywel Mr Mike Weir when no reason has been given for the need to do so other than SNP dogma. Although we recognise the NOES strength of feeling on the coastguard, which is an Abbott, Ms Diane Burley, Mr Aidan important topic of debate, I urge the hon. Gentleman Abrahams, Debbie Burns, Conor not to press his new clause. Adams, Nigel Burns, rh Mr Simon Afriyie, Adam Burstow, Paul Mr MacNeil: I will be brief in the hope that we will Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Burt, Alistair get to the vote. I am perplexed as to why the hon. Aldous, Peter Burt, Lorely Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) wants to Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Byles, Dan leave the Tories in charge of Scotland’s coastguard. Alexander, Heidi Byrne, rh Mr Liam Ali, Rushanara Cable, rh Vince Thomas Docherty: Temporarily. Amess, Mr David Campbell, Mr Alan Anderson, Mr David Carmichael, Neil Andrew, Stuart Carswell, Mr Douglas Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman says temporarily, Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cash, Mr William but in my lifetime I have seen an awfully lot of time that Austin, Ian Caton, Martin he might call temporary—the 18 years from 1979 to Bacon, Mr Richard Chapman, Mrs Jenny 1997. We then had Labour saying that it could do this, Bagshawe, Ms Louise Chishti, Rehman that and the rest of it and that we should vote Labour to Bailey, Mr Adrian Clark, rh Greg stop the Tories, and that did not work once. Bain, Mr William Clarke, rh Mr Tom The hon. Member for Aberdeen North said that the Baker, Norman Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey new clause would not resolve the issue, but surely it Baker, Steve Clwyd, rh Ann would at the very least lessen the problem by moving Baldwin, Harriett Coffey, Ann Banks, Gordon Coffey, Dr Thérèse responsibility for the coastguard to Scotland. He said Barclay, Stephen Collins, Damian that he wants a properly co-ordinated national system. Barker, Gregory Connarty, Michael That is what I want, but I fear that we will not get it Baron, Mr John Cooper, Rosie because of the cuts. I recognise and respect his input Barron, rh Mr Kevin Crabb, Stephen and involvement in Piper Alpha. He probably misses Barwell, Gavin Creagh, Mary the point that the Isle of Man has its own coastguard Bebb, Guto Creasy, Stella and seems to co-ordinate well with Liverpool, and Beith, rh Sir Alan Crockart, Mike presumably with the Republic of Ireland as well. I am Bellingham, Mr Henry Crouch, Tracey disappointed that he descended into making slurs; he Benyon, Richard Cruddas, Jon could have done better. The new clause is about saving Beresford, Sir Paul Cryer, John coastguard stations in Scotland and keeping a coastguard Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Alex in Scotland. Berry, Jake Cunningham, Mr Jim Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Tony I of course welcome the Minister’s encouragement on Bingham, Andrew Dakin, Nic ports, but he should be aware that I am trying to keep a Binley, Mr Brian Danczuk, Simon level of coastguard service in Scotland. Regardless of Birtwistle, Gordon Davey, Mr Edward the party in power in Scotland, I am quite sure that such Blackman, Bob David, Mr Wayne savage cuts should not be made to our marine insurance Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davidson, Mr Ian policy, the coastguard stations. In short, the Minister Blackwood, Nicola Davies, David T. C. sees London as the only way, and that there can be no Blears, rh Hazel (Monmouth) other way such as on the Isle of Man. Blenkinsop, Tom Davies, Geraint Blomfield, Paul Davies, Glyn Michael Connarty: Will the hon. Gentleman give Blunkett, rh Mr David Davis, rh Mr David way? Blunt, Mr Crispin de Bois, Nick Boles, Nick De Piero, Gloria Bone, Mr Peter Denham, rh Mr John Mr MacNeil: No, I will make progress. Bottomley, Sir Peter Dinenage, Caroline I see that the Minister was happy that the sea area Bradley, Karen Docherty, Thomas was taken from Scotland in 1999, and he revealingly Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Donohoe, Mr Brian H. made a Freudian slip by saying “mythology”. Why was Brady, Mr Graham Doran, Mr Frank that change made in 1999? I fear that he has given up his Brake, Tom Dorries, Nadine birthright for a mess of pottage. Bray, Angie Doyle-Price, Jackie I shall seek to divide the Committee on new clause 3 Brazier, Mr Julian Drax, Richard and—I hope—on new clause 12. Brennan, Kevin Dromey, Jack Bridgen, Andrew Duddridge, James Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Brine, Mr Steve Dugher, Michael The Committee divided: Ayes 9, Noes 480. Brokenshire, James Duncan, rh Mr Alan Brooke, Annette Eagle, Maria Division No. 225] [6.43 pm Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Ellis, Michael AYES Brown, Mr Russell Ellison, Jane Campbell, Mr Gregory Hosie, Stewart Bruce, Fiona Ellman, Mrs Louise Durkan, Mark MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Bryant, Chris Ellwood, Mr Tobias Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Buckland, Mr Robert Elphicke, Charlie 219 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 220

Esterson, Bill Healey, rh John Loughton, Tim Patel, Priti Eustice, George Heath, Mr David Love, Mr Andrew Pawsey, Mark Evans, Chris Heaton-Harris, Chris Lucas, Ian Pearce, Teresa Evans, Graham Hemming, John Luff, Peter Percy, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Henderson, Gordon Lumley, Karen Perkins, Toby Evennett, Mr David Hendrick, Mark Macleod, Mary Phillips, Stephen Fabricant, Michael Hendry, Charles MacShane, rh Mr Denis Phillipson, Bridget Fallon, Michael Herbert, rh Nick Mactaggart, Fiona Pickles, rh Mr Eric Farron, Tim Heyes, David Mahmood, Shabana Pincher, Christopher Featherstone, Lynne Hillier, Meg Main, Mrs Anne Poulter, Dr Daniel Field, rh Mr Frank Hilling, Julie Marsden, Mr Gordon Prisk, Mr Mark Field, Mr Mark Hinds, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Pritchard, Mark Flello, Robert Hoban, Mr Mark Maynard, Paul Pugh, John Flint, rh Caroline Hodge, rh Margaret McCabe, Steve Raab, Mr Dominic Flynn, Paul Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McCarthy, Kerry Randall, rh Mr John Foster, rh Mr Don Hollingbery, George McCartney, Jason Reckless, Mark Fovargue, Yvonne Hollobone, Mr Philip McCartney, Karl Redwood, rh Mr John Francis, Dr Hywel Holloway, Mr Adam McDonagh, Siobhain Rees-Mogg, Jacob Francois, rh Mr Mark Hood, Mr Jim McDonnell, John Reevell, Simon Freeman, George Hopkins, Kelvin McFadden, rh Mr Pat Reeves, Rachel Freer, Mike Hopkins, Kris McIntosh, Miss Anne Reid, Mr Alan Fullbrook, Lorraine Horwood, Martin McKinnell, Catherine Reynolds, Jonathan Fuller, Richard Howarth, Mr Gerald McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Riordan, Mrs Linda Gale, Mr Roger Howell, John McPartland, Stephen Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Gapes, Mike Hughes, rh Simon McVey, Esther Robertson, John Gardiner, Barry Huhne, rh Chris Meacher, rh Mr Michael Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Garnier, Mr Edward Hunt, Tristram Meale, Mr Alan Rogerson, Dan Garnier, Mark Hunter, Mark Mearns, Ian Rosindell, Andrew Gauke, Mr David Hurd, Mr Nick Menzies, Mark Rotheram, Steve George, Andrew Jackson, Mr Stewart Metcalfe, Stephen Roy, Mr Frank Gibb, Mr Nick James, Margot Michael, rh Alun Roy, Lindsay Gilbert, Stephen James, Mrs Siân C. Miller, Andrew Ruane, Chris Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Jamieson, Cathy Miller, Maria Rudd, Amber Gilmore, Sheila Jarvis, Dan Mills, Nigel Ruddock, rh Joan Glass, Pat Javid, Sajid Milton, Anne Ruffley, Mr David Glen, John Jenkin, Mr Bernard Moon, Mrs Madeleine Rutley, David Glindon, Mrs Mary Johnson, Diana Mordaunt, Penny Sanders, Mr Adrian Goggins, rh Paul Johnson, Gareth Morden, Jessica Sandys, Laura Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Andrew Morgan, Nicky Scott, Mr Lee Goodman, Helen Jones, Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Seabeck, Alison Goodwill, Mr Robert Jones, Graham Morris, Anne Marie Selous, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Mr Kevan Morris, David Shapps, rh Grant Gray, Mr James Jones, Mr Marcus Morris, Grahame M. Sharma, Alok Grayling, rh Chris Joyce, Eric (Easington) Sheerman, Mr Barry Greatrex, Tom Kawczynski, Daniel Morris, James Shuker, Gavin Green, Damian Keeley, Barbara Mosley, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Green, Kate Kelly, Chris Mowat, David Skidmore, Chris Greenwood, Lilian Kendall, Liz Mulholland, Greg Skinner, Mr Dennis Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Kirby, Simon Mundell, rh David Smith, rh Mr Andrew Griffith, Nia Knight, rh Mr Greg Munn, Meg Smith, Angela Griffiths, Andrew Kwarteng, Kwasi Munt, Tessa Smith, Henry Gummer, Ben Laing, Mrs Eleanor Murphy, rh Mr Jim Smith, Julian Gwynne, Andrew Lamb, Norman Murphy, rh Paul Smith, Owen Gyimah, Mr Sam Lancaster, Mark Murray, Ian Smith, Sir Robert Hain, rh Mr Peter Lavery, Ian Murray, Sheryll Soames, Nicholas Halfon, Robert Laws, rh Mr David Murrison, Dr Andrew Soubry, Anna Hames, Duncan Lazarowicz, Mark Nandy, Lisa Soulsby, Sir Peter Hamilton, Mr David Leadsom, Andrea Nash, Pamela Spencer, Mr Mark Hamilton, Fabian Lee, Jessica Neill, Robert Stanley, rh Sir John Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lee, Dr Phillip Newmark, Mr Brooks Stephenson, Andrew Hancock, Matthew Leech, Mr John Newton, Sarah Stevenson, John Hands, Greg Lefroy, Jeremy Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Bob Hanson, rh Mr David Leslie, Charlotte Norman, Jesse Stewart, Iain Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lewis, Brandon Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Rory Harper, Mr Mark Lewis, Mr Ivan O’Donnell, Fiona Streeter, Mr Gary Harris, Rebecca Lewis, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Stride, Mel Harris, Mr Tom Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ollerenshaw, Eric Stringer, Graham Hart, Simon Lidington, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Stuart, Ms Gisela Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lilley, rh Mr Peter Opperman, Guy Stuart, Mr Graham Havard, Mr Dai Lloyd, Stephen Ottaway, Richard Stunell, Andrew Hayes, Mr John Lopresti, Jack Paice, rh Mr James Sturdy, Julian Heald, Mr Oliver Lord, Jonathan Parish, Neil Swales, Ian 221 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 222

Swayne, Mr Desmond Ward, Mr David Thomas Docherty: Thank you, Ms Primarolo. Swinson, Jo Watkinson, Angela Most people think that the Scottish Parliament already Swire, rh Mr Hugo Watson, Mr Tom Syms, Mr Robert Watts, Mr Dave has the power to decide on the model for the franchise. Tami, Mark Weatherley, Mike After all, it has to fund the ScotRail franchise, through Tapsell, Sir Peter Webb, Steve its Ministers, and it is responsible for the letting of the Teather, Sarah Wharton, James franchise. It is also responsible for funding the building Thomas, Mr Gareth Wheeler, Heather of new railways in Scotland, and it is worth noting that Thornberry, Emily Whitehead, Dr Alan a number of new railway lines opened in Scotland Thurso, John Whittaker, Craig between 1999 and 2007 thanks to the Labour-led Scottish Timms, rh Stephen Whittingdale, Mr John Executive. The Airdrie to Bathgate line and the Larkhall Timpson, Mr Edward Wicks, rh Malcolm to Milngavie line are two obvious examples. It is Tomlinson, Justin Wiggin, Bill disappointing that the SNP Government saw fit to Tredinnick, David Willetts, rh Mr David cancel the Glasgow airport rail link; that is a blot on Trickett, Jon Williams, Roger their track record, if the Committee will pardon my Truss, Elizabeth Williams, Stephen rather poor pun. Turner, Mr Andrew Williamson, Chris Turner, Karl Williamson, Gavin The new clause would not change the health and Twigg, Derek Wilson, Phil safety rules for the railways. It is absolutely right that we Twigg, Stephen Wilson, Mr Rob have a standard—[Interruption.] Tyrie, Mr Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Umunna, Mr Chuka Wollaston, Dr Sarah The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. I am really Uppal, Paul Woodcock, John sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman again, but I can Vaizey, Mr Edward Wright, David barely hear what he is saying. There are too many Vara, Mr Shailesh Wright, Mr Iain private conversations going on in the Chamber. Out of Vaz, Valerie Wright, Simon respect to him, will those who do not wish to listen to Vickers, Martin Yeo, Mr Tim Young, rh Sir George his speech on the new clause leave the Chamber quietly Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa now? Walker, Mr Charles Zahawi, Nadhim Walker, Mr Robin Tellers for the Noes: Thomas Docherty: Thank you, Ms Primarolo. I see Walley, Joan Mr Philip Dunne and Walter, Mr Robert Miss Chloe Smith that the Chamber is suddenly becoming a bit emptier. Perhaps it is worth pointing out that the Deputy Prime Minister is hosting a drinks reception tonight for Question accordingly negatived. Government Back Benchers. I imagine that hon. Members are off to make sure he does not drink all the wine New Clause 9 himself, although after the Barnsley result he probably needs to do so.

RAIL PASSENGER SERVICES I shall return to the substantive issue of the railways in Scotland. As I was saying before I was so gently ‘In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Act, in section E2, after “Exceptions” there is inserted— interrupted, it is obviously right that we should retain the single health and safety policy throughout Great “The provision of rail passenger services which start and Britain. I say “Great Britain” because, as hon. Members finish in Scotland, including the power to decide who will run such services, the provisions of the Railways Act 1993 will be aware, the railways in Northern Ireland are part notwithstanding.”.’.—(Thomas Docherty.) of the single railway system of the island of Ireland. My proposal refers only to the railway network in Great Brought up, and read the First time. Britain. Thomas Docherty: I beg to move, That the clause be It is bizarre that, following the Scotland Act 1998 and read a Second time. the Railways Act 2005, we have successfully given greater powers to Scottish Ministers to do everything except I am obviously delighted to see that so many Members determine the model of the franchise. I am not going to on both sides of the House take such a passionate and argue that a switch to a not-for-dividend model would keen interest in Scotland’s railway services. We have had necessarily be in the best interests of passengers in a great deal of support for the measure from the trade Scotland. As a member of the Transport Salaried Staffs unions in Scotland. This is a simple, technical new Association, I have worked for Network Rail. The problems clause. Most people think that the Scottish Parliament that Network Rail has had in the past are well documented, already has the ability to decide what the model of the and there is an ongoing issue involving the cases of franchise will be, and I am keen that the situation sexual harassment and bullying by Peter Bennett, the should be resolved—[Interruption.] head of human resources, of many of his employees. That has resulted in about £300,000 of damages and 7pm compensation being paid to employees. This is not an The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means ideological debate; it is about who is best placed to (Dawn Primarolo): Order. We are debating a new clause make the decisions. to the Bill, and hon. Members should listen to the I shall give a couple of examples of how the present speeches. If they want to have private conversations, system is not working. We have only to look at the perhaps they could go outside. Mr Docherty is a bit constituency of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland. squashed on the Bench there, but I am sure that he will I was lucky enough to live there, in the village of stand in the right place while he is speaking to his new Moffat, for a number of years, and the Minister will clause. recall that I put myself forward as a Labour candidate 223 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 224 in a local council by-election. It was a secret ballot, so I on the east coast main line—or, indeed, on the west am not quite sure how he voted, but I recall his featuring coast services. The only services that leave Scotland are on one of my rival candidate’s leaflets, promising that if the one that runs from the Minister’s constituency to the Conservatives won the by-election—which, surprisingly, Carlisle, on the Glasgow to Carlisle line, and the Caledonian they did—he would ensure the reopening of the Beattock sleeper, which runs between London and Fort William, railway line. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Inverness, Edinburgh and Glasgow. That service would South (Mr Harris) will know from his time in the rail stay in the franchise. As I have said, this is a very industry and as a Transport Minister that that line sits technical new clause. It is supported by all the trade on what is now the west coast main line. unions and by the Scottish Government, who see it as a The Minister was also a great champion of the Eastriggs logical way forward. railway station, which is ably represented by my old colleague, Councillor Sean Marshall. The Minister’s Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I am constituency also contains the village of Thornhill, following the hon. Gentleman’s argument carefully. Does which is in the Galloway area of the constituency. In all his new clause relate specifically to franchise matters those places, he was a huge champion of the reopening and the operating side of the railways, or is he also of railway stations, yet after six years as a Member of seeking the devolution of some of the functions held by Parliament and 10 months as a Minister in the Scotland Network Rail? Office, none of those railway stations has reopened. That could not possibly be because he was making Thomas Docherty: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s promises that he could not deliver, so the fault must be question, which lets me clarify that this is purely about with the franchise model. We need no better reason for the franchise because the functions of Network Rail are giving Scottish Ministers the power to shape their own already devolved to the Scottish Parliament. That is model. part of the absurdity of the situation. Scottish Ministers have responsibility for everything except, rightly, health Mr Tom Harris: I am genuinely unclear about the and safety, because that needs to be regulated in a nature of my hon. Friend’s grievance with the current different way, and the franchise model itself. The funding, model. Is he saying that Scottish Ministers and Transport letting and monitoring of the franchise are carried out Scotland do not have the legislative capability to reopen by the Scottish Parliament, but it does not set its own disused stations? model. I look forward to the Minister’s well-chosen words of response to my case. Thomas Docherty: The issue at the moment is that Scottish Ministers must let the franchise according to a Mr Weir: Much to my surprise, I support what the privatised railway model. As my hon. Friend knows, the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Railways Act 2005 specifically bans a public body from Docherty) has said. He made a good case, as it would be acting as the franchise operator. The only exception to sensible to devolve this function to Scotland, although that is if that body is the operator of last resort, as is he ruined it a bit by making a totally unnecessary attack now the case with the east coast main line. The new on the Scottish Government, who have supported the clause would give Scottish Ministers the right not only railway industry throughout Scotland and put a great to fund the railway, to let the franchise and to monitor deal of money into upgrading it and opening new lines its performance—all of which they have to do anyway—but and stations. to determine the shape of the model involved. This might well result in a privatised model like the one that Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Will we now have on the ScotRail franchise, or perhaps in a the hon. Gentleman give way? co-operative model. The Ministers might ask Transport Scotland to run the franchise, or set up a new company Mr Weir: No, thank you. called Scottish Passenger Transport to do so. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife The new clause provides a logical conclusion to the talked about the Glasgow airport rail link. I would be direction of travel—again, please pardon my poor pun—of interested to see whether that proposal appears in Labour’s the reconfiguration of the railways in Scotland. The manifesto with full details of how it is to be funded, and reason that the proposal was not considered by the what Labour is going to cut in order to do so, given the Calman commission is that it involves such a small cuts that are coming in the Scottish budget because of technical change. Most Members of Parliament and Labour’s economic mismanagement and the incompetence MSPs were simply not aware that Scottish Ministers did of the current UK Government. not have this ability. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to Mr Roy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? these points. It is possible, if his civil servants have not done a particularly good job of advising him, that he Mr Weir: No thank you. might claim that the measure would somehow bring the Scotland has a good record on rail and will continue whole of Great Britain’s rail network crashing down. to invest in rail and build up the rail system. This Obviously, that would be an absurd argument. The proposal would give the Scottish Government the Department for Transport is already running the east opportunity to get a different franchise arrangement coast main line as the operator of last resort, placing should they wish to do so. It would be up to them to the line back in the public domain. I am talking about a decide on the franchise, but it would provide flexibility. service that is wholly contained within Scotland, and We support the new clause, notwithstanding the totally the measure would have no impact on any other service. unnecessary attacks on the Scottish Government by the It would have no impact on the CrossCountry service or hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. 225 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 226

Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ there will be an event in Glasgow, attended by a Transport Co-op): I do not intend to detain the Committee because Minister, about a consultation on the ongoing developments there are other new clauses we wish to debate. in high-speed rail. The first part of the high-speed rail The new clause deals with an issue that was probably service from London to Birmingham is vital for its neglected in the transfer of powers to the Scottish further development into Scotland. Parliament in relation to rail, and it is appropriate and sensible that we use the opportunity of this Bill to Mr Weir: I am listening closely to the Minister, but I resolve that. On that basis, we intend to support it and am slightly confused. He is talking about the development assume, given that it is a sensible proposal on a technical of high-speed rail, which will be very good if it comes to issue, that the Government will not have too much of a Scotland—we will see if the Government ever get it problem with it. there—but that service does not begin and end in Scotland, and neither do the Virgin or East Coast services. I do David Mundell: I was disappointed that the hon. not understand his point. The new clause refers to Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas services that begin and end in Scotland—basically, the Docherty) missed out Symington station as one of ScotRail franchise as it operates at the moment. those that I continue to campaign to be reopened in my constituency, as it has brought vital rail services to that David Mundell: My point, which I am sure that the part of Scotland. hon. Gentleman does not recognise for dogmatic reasons, is that there are important rail services in Scotland that I was interested in the hon. Gentleman’s analysis of cross the border, and that those services remain important. the requirements of the rail services in Scotland. His constituency counterpart, Helen Eadie, was the only Labour MSP to vote against the legislative consent Mark Lazarowicz: Given that that is the current motion for the Bill in the Scottish Parliament. Of course, situation, why on earth are the Government opposing a Mrs Eadie is well known for her radical views on the new clause that refers to services that “start and finish”, Scottish rail network, proposing as she has the demolition not “start or finish”, in Scotland? of the Forth rail bridge. I was pleased that he did not suggest that that would fall within the powers of the David Mundell: If the hon. Gentleman had listened Scottish Parliament. to the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, he would have heard him give a very narrow definition of Thomas Docherty: It might help the Minister to know services which start and finish in Scotland, without that the Forth bridge is a category A listed building, so giving sufficient recognition to the fact that there are unfortunately Mrs Eadie would not have the ability to significant services that cross the border. knock it down. Mr Tom Harris: I listened closely to my hon. Friend’s David Mundell: I am grateful for that confirmation, speech, and he was very explicit in saying that the new because the newspaper article that I read described clause refers only to the ScotRail franchise. That includes Mrs Eadie as being unrepentant despite criticism from one cross-border service, the Caledonian sleeper, but several quarters in that regard. this would have no effect whatever on other franchise services that cross the border—Virgin, East Coast and I am afraid that I must disappoint both the hon. TransPennine Express. They would be completely Member for Dunfermline and West Fife and the hon. untouched; nothing would change in their operational Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom or financial arrangements. The only thing that would Greatrex), because the Government cannot support change is the ScotRail franchise. Can the Minister new clause 9. It deals with rail responsibilities, as the explain why that is beyond the wit of the Government? hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife explained, and seeks to give the Scottish Parliament legislative David Mundell: If the hon. Gentleman had been competence over the provision of rail passenger services listening, he would realise that I have said that Scotland that start and finish in Scotland. That is a much longer benefits from a mix of services within the ScotRail list than the one to which he alluded, because it involves franchise, and that cross-border services are vital to all cross-border services, including the Virgin franchise Scotland. I would have hoped that he would support the services on the west coast main line, which do not start view of my hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes and finish in Scotland and remain the responsibility of South (Iain Stewart) that high-speed rail is important to the Department for Transport. Scotland. However, none of those things is why the Government do not support the new clause. 7.15 pm Iain Stewart: Is my right hon. Friend aware that Iain Stewart: The Minister is being very generous. I Glasgow and Edinburgh councils are running a strong am happy to stand corrected, but I believe that there is a campaign for the construction of a high-speed line from cross-border ScotRail service. It probably goes through London to the midlands and further north, with the Dumfries in his constituency to Carlisle and on to simultaneous building of a high-speed line from Scotland Newcastle. How will that service be included in the new southwards? That would provide additional cross-border clause? services, and it, too, would have to be taken into account when framing legislation such as this. David Mundell: There are indeed services that travel from Glasgow to Dumfries and on to Newcastle. David Mundell: Indeed. As my hon. Friend will know, However, the Government’s objection to the new the coalition Government are committed to high-speed clause is that we are committed to maintaining a GB-wide rail services throughout the United Kingdom. On Thursday, national rail network that is publicly specified, funded 227 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 228 in the public interest and provided by the private sector. I believe that it would have benefited from the thorough The new clause would interfere with that national network. scrutiny of the Scotland Bill Committee in the Scottish If the intention of the hon. Member for Dunfermline Parliament and from discussion in the Scottish Affairs and West Fife is to allow for a not-for-dividend operator Committee. of the ScotRail network, that is possible within the current framework. John Thurso: I have no doubt that the Minister is right to resist the amendment, because I am sure that it Mr Tom Harris: I am grateful to the Minister for is technically deficient in some way, but—[Laughter.] I giving way once more. I agree with him that the GB-wide took part in the entire Committee stage of the Railways network should be publicly specified and commercially Act 2005, and the intention was to devolve everything provided by the private sector. However, surely it goes that could be devolved to the Scottish Government in against the spirit of devolution and of the Scotland Bill relation to the railways. Is there no room for compromise to deny Scottish Ministers the right to take a different to allow for what is a reasonably sensible suggestion view with regard to one self-contained franchise in without breaking the principle that the Minister is Scotland. Surely devolution is about allowing Scottish evoking? Ministers to make mistakes, if that is what they wish to do. David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman, as always, offers wise words. I thought that he was going to refer to the David Mundell: The devolution settlement is indeed debate in this House on 31 March 1998, although he about allowing the Scottish Government to take decisions was not then a Member, in which rail powers were in respect of the areas for which they are responsible, as debated in the context of the original Scotland Bill. The determined by the Scotland Act 1998 and the Scotland hon. Member for Central Ayrshire was prominent in Bill. This discussion is about whether the issue in question that debate, as he was in our earlier discussion on voting should be devolved to the Scottish Government. The systems. Government do not agree with that proposal because we believe that it would open the opportunity to Mark Lazarowicz: Again, I honestly do not understand fundamentally alter the national framework by allowing the Minister’s position. The new clause refers to the a renationalisation of the railway in Scotland. provision of rail services, but it does not provide for the devolution of the rail infrastructure. The tracks and Mr Harris: Will the Minister explain what negative the rest of it could not be sold off. I suggest that he consequences have resulted in the GB-wide network remembers that he is in a coalition and rethinks this from the nationalisation of the east coast main line issue before he is deserted by some of his colleagues to franchise? his right. David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman knows better David Mundell: I have set out the reasons why the than most that the Government were required to take Government cannot accept the new clause. The Government over the east coast main line as a measure of last resort. believe that the devolved powers, which are significant, Within the framework of the rail industry, there have to are best exercised within a coherent GB structure, as be measures of last resort. It is not a measure that the provided under the Railways Acts of 1993 and 2005. We Government wish to promote. As I have said, we wish believe that it is essential that the overall regime for the to promote a national rail network that is publicly provision of rail passenger services and their regulation specified, funded in the public interest and provided by remains a reserved matter. It would not be sensible to the private sector. As I have also said, if it is the run the railway in such a way that the Scottish Parliament intention that a not-for-dividend company should operate, could overturn the framework that governs the operation there is nothing to stop that in the present arrangements. of passenger services on a GB basis. Our policy is to maintain a unified national rail network that is subject Thomas Docherty: I would not wish to suggest that to appropriate oversight by Scottish Ministers. I believe the Minister is misleading the House—he has obviously that the current system achieves that. I therefore ask the been misinformed by the civil servants in the Box—but hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife to withdraw the Railways Act 1993 is explicit that a public sector the new clause. operator cannot run the railways. I would be happy to go out to the Lobby and get the section of the Act that Thomas Docherty: This should have been a relatively says that. short and reasonable debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) David Mundell: The hon. Gentleman is seeking to said, on the face of it there should have been no give a different definition. I am specifying a not-for-dividend opposition to the new clause. I am therefore pretty organisation. If he wants to go beyond that and into the surprised by the rather weak arguments that the civil realms of opening up the powers for the Scottish servants have foisted upon the Minister, who I think Government to renationalise the railways in Scotland, knows better. he should promote that point in a different debate, and To address the point made by the hon. Member for not by tabling a new clause to this Bill. If he genuinely Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart), it would be absurd believes that the railways in Scotland should be if a railway line that ran from Glasgow down through renationalised, he should make that argument in the Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway did not have its terminus appropriate place. in Carlisle. There is a variation in the operating rules The hon. Members for Dunfermline and West Fife that allows ScotRail to run that service to Carlisle. That and for Rutherglen and Hamilton West said that this service is part of the ScotRail franchise and has no was a minor matter that was being brought forward at impact on the other services that run through and this stage because it had simply been overlooked. However, connect at Carlisle. 229 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 230

Iain Stewart: Perhaps I can clarify my point. I understood De Piero, Gloria McDonnell, Dr Alasdair that the hon. Gentleman’s argument was about devolving Denham, rh Mr John McDonnell, John the whole of the ScotRail franchise, and I was Dobbin, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat simply trying to clarify what would happen to the one Docherty, Thomas McGovern, Jim route that is within that franchise but is a cross-border Doran, Mr Frank McKechin, Ann service. Dromey, Jack McKinnell, Catherine Dugher, Michael Meale, Mr Alan Durkan, Mark Mearns, Ian Thomas Docherty: Obviously that would be part of Eagle, Maria Michael, rh Alun the ScotRail franchise and would carry on in that way. Edwards, Jonathan Moon, Mrs Madeleine Efford, Clive Morden, Jessica The Minister’s argument is clearly ideological. He Ellman, Mrs Louise Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) assumes that if the Scottish Parliament were given Esterson, Bill Morris, Grahame M. responsibility for the matter, it would automatically Evans, Chris (Easington) nationalise the railway. That is not the purpose of the Field, rh Mr Frank Munn, Meg new clause. It is about giving Scottish Ministers the Flello, Robert Murphy, rh Mr Jim power and authority to make that decision. His arguments Flint, rh Caroline Murphy, rh Paul are weak. Flynn, Paul Murray, Ian Fovargue, Yvonne Nandy, Lisa Francis, Dr Hywel Nash, Pamela 7.30 pm Gapes, Mike O’Donnell, Fiona Mr Reid: I am genuinely confused by what the hon. Gilmore, Sheila Onwurah, Chi Glass, Pat Pearce, Teresa Gentleman said in response to my hon. Friend the Glindon, Mrs Mary Perkins, Toby Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart). The Goggins, rh Paul Phillipson, Bridget new clause is clear that only passenger services that Goodman, Helen Reeves, Rachel start and finish in Scotland should be devolved, but the Greatrex, Tom Reynolds, Jonathan hon. Gentleman says he wants to devolve the ScotRail Green, Kate Robertson, Angus franchise. However, as we have heard, that franchise Greenwood, Lilian Robertson, John sometimes crosses the border. Griffith, Nia Rotheram, Steve Gwynne, Andrew Roy, Mr Frank Hain, rh Mr Peter Roy, Lindsay Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Hamilton, Mr David Ruane, Chris for joining us at this late stage. I must clarify for him Hamilton, Fabian Ruddock, rh Joan that the legal terminology in the Railways Act 1993 Hanson, rh Mr David Seabeck, Alison defines the franchise area as those services that begin Harris, Mr Tom Sheridan, Jim and end wholly within Scotland. However, the franchise Healey, rh John Shuker, Gavin also covers the tiny stretch to Carlisle. He might wish to Hendrick, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis take up that legal point with the Library, but it does not Hepburn, Mr Stephen Smith, rh Mr Andrew affect the new clause. Hermon, Lady Smith, Angela Heyes, David I am conscious that we are keeping Conservative Smith, Owen Hillier, Meg Spellar, rh Mr John Members back from their drinks reception with the Hilling, Julie Deputy Prime Minister. I regret to say that I found the Stringer, Graham Hodge, rh Margaret Stuart, Ms Gisela Minister’s arguments rather weak and will therefore Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry press the new clause to a Division. Hood, Mr Jim Tami, Mark Hopkins, Kelvin Thomas, Mr Gareth Hosie, Stewart Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Thornberry, Emily Hunt, Tristram The Committee divided: Ayes 172, Noes 293. Irranca-Davies, Huw Turner, Karl Twigg, Derek Division No. 226] [7.31 pm James, Mrs Siân C. Jamieson, Cathy Twigg, Stephen Jarvis, Dan Vaz, Valerie AYES Johnson, Diana Walley, Joan Abrahams, Debbie Bryant, Chris Jones, Graham Watson, Mr Tom Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Campbell, Mr Alan Jones, Mr Kevan Watts, Mr Dave Alexander, Heidi Caton, Martin Joyce, Eric Weir, Mr Mike Ali, Rushanara Chapman, Mrs Jenny Keeley, Barbara Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Austin, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Kendall, Liz Whitehead, Dr Alan Bailey, Mr Adrian Connarty, Michael Lavery, Ian Wicks, rh Malcolm Bain, Mr William Cooper, Rosie Lazarowicz, Mark Williams, Hywel Banks, Gordon Creagh, Mary Lewis, Mr Ivan Williamson, Chris Barron, rh Mr Kevin Creasy, Stella Love, Mr Andrew Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Begg, Dame Anne Cruddas, Jon Lucas, Ian Wishart, Pete Berger, Luciana Cunningham, Alex MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Woodcock, John Mahmood, Shabana Betts, Mr Clive Cunningham, Mr Jim Wright, David Marsden, Mr Gordon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cunningham, Tony Wright, Mr Iain Blenkinsop, Tom Dakin, Nic McCabe, Steve McCarthy, Kerry Blomfield, Paul Danczuk, Simon Tellers for the Ayes: McClymont, Gregg Phil Wilson and Brennan, Kevin David, Mr Wayne McDonagh, Siobhain Mr David Anderson Brown, Lyn Davidson, Mr Ian Brown, Mr Russell Davies, Geraint 231 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 232

NOES Jones, Mr David Poulter, Dr Daniel Jones, Mr Marcus Prisk, Mr Mark Adams, Nigel Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Pritchard, Mark Afriyie, Adam Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kelly, Chris Pugh, John Aldous, Peter Elphicke, Charlie Kirby, Simon Raab, Mr Dominic Amess, Mr David Eustice, George Knight, rh Mr Greg Randall, rh Mr John Andrew, Stuart Evans, Graham Kwarteng, Kwasi Reckless, Mark Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Evans, Jonathan Laing, Mrs Eleanor Redwood, rh Mr John Bacon, Mr Richard Evennett, Mr David Lamb, Norman Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bagshawe, Ms Louise Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Reevell, Simon Baker, Norman Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Baker, Steve Field, Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Baldry, Tony Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Jessica Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Rogerson, Dan Barclay, Stephen Freeman, George Leech, Mr John Rosindell, Andrew Barker, Gregory Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber Baron, Mr John Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Barwell, Gavin Gale, Mr Roger Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian Bebb, Guto Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura Beith, rh Sir Alan Garnier, Mark Lidington, rh Mr David Scott, Mr Lee Bellingham, Mr Henry Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Shapps, rh Grant Benyon, Richard Gibb, Mr Nick Lloyd, Stephen Sharma, Alok Beresford, Sir Paul Gilbert, Stephen Lopresti, Jack Simmonds, Mark Berry, Jake Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Simpson, Mr Keith Bingham, Andrew Glen, John Loughton, Tim Skidmore, Chris Binley, Mr Brian Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Smith, Henry Birtwistle, Gordon Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Smith, Julian Blackwood, Nicola Graham, Richard Macleod, Mary Smith, Sir Robert Boles, Nick Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Soames, Nicholas Bone, Mr Peter Gray, Mr James May, rh Mrs Theresa Soubry, Anna Bottomley, Sir Peter Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Spencer, Mr Mark Bradley, Karen Green, Damian McCartney, Jason Stanley, rh Sir John Brady, Mr Graham Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Stephenson, Andrew Brake, Tom Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Brazier, Mr Julian Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Bob Bridgen, Andrew Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, Esther Stewart, Iain Brine, Mr Steve Halfon, Robert Menzies, Mark Stewart, Rory Brokenshire, James Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Streeter, Mr Gary Brooke, Annette Hammond, rh Mr Philip Miller, Maria Stride, Mel Bruce, Fiona Hancock, Matthew Mills, Nigel Stuart, Mr Graham Buckland, Mr Robert Hands, Greg Milton, Anne Stunell, Andrew Burley, Mr Aidan Harper, Mr Mark Mordaunt, Penny Sturdy, Julian Burns, Conor Harris, Rebecca Morgan, Nicky Swales, Ian Burns, rh Mr Simon Hart, Simon Morris, Anne Marie Swayne, Mr Desmond Burstow, Paul Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Swinson, Jo Burt, Alistair Hayes, Mr John Morris, James Swire, rh Mr Hugo Burt, Lorely Heald, Mr Oliver Mosley, Stephen Syms, Mr Robert Byles, Dan Heath, Mr David Mowat, David Teather, Sarah Cable, rh Vince Heaton-Harris, Chris Mulholland, Greg Thurso, John Campbell, Mr Gregory Hemming, John Mundell, rh David Timpson, Mr Edward Carmichael, Neil Henderson, Gordon Munt, Tessa Tomlinson, Justin Carswell, Mr Douglas Hendry, Charles Murray, Sheryll Tredinnick, David Cash, Mr William Herbert, rh Nick Murrison, Dr Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew Chishti, Rehman Hinds, Damian Neill, Robert Uppal, Paul Clark, rh Greg Hoban, Mr Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Vaizey, Mr Edward Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hollingbery, George Newton, Sarah Vara, Mr Shailesh Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hollobone, Mr Philip Nokes, Caroline Vickers, Martin Collins, Damian Holloway, Mr Adam Norman, Jesse Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Crabb, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Nuttall, Mr David Walker, Mr Charles Crockart, Mike Horwood, Martin Offord, Mr Matthew Walker, Mr Robin Crouch, Tracey Howarth, Mr Gerald Davies, David T. C. Howell, John Ollerenshaw, Eric Walter, Mr Robert (Monmouth) Hughes, rh Simon Opperman, Guy Ward, Mr David Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Ottaway, Richard Watkinson, Angela Davis, rh Mr David Hunter, Mark Paice, rh Mr James Weatherley, Mike de Bois, Nick Hurd, Mr Nick Parish, Neil Webb, Steve Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Patel, Priti Wharton, James Dorries, Nadine James, Margot Pawsey, Mark Wheeler, Heather Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Penrose, John Whittaker, Craig Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Percy, Andrew Whittingdale, Mr John Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Gareth Phillips, Stephen Wiggin, Bill Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Joseph Pickles, rh Mr Eric Willetts, rh Mr David Ellis, Michael Jones, Andrew Pincher, Christopher Williams, Roger 233 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 234

Williams, Stephen Young, rh Sir George from the Crown Estate. The commissioners say that Williamson, Gavin Zahawi, Nadhim they are the best managers of the land, but from what I Wilson, Mr Rob have seen and from what people have told me, with Wollaston, Dr Sarah Tellers for the Noes: respect, I must disagree. Wright, Simon James Duddridge and Yeo, Mr Tim Miss Chloe Smith The Crown Estate commission is a large management organisation, the sole purpose of which, according to the Crown Estate Act 1961, is to “maintain and enhance” Question accordingly negatived. the value of the Crown Estate “and the return obtained from it, but with due regard to the New Clause 10 requirements of good management.” How can that organisation manage its land effectively CROWN ESTATE for the people of Scotland when it need not report to the Scottish Government or Parliament, or indeed to ‘(1) In Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, paragraphs 2(3) and 3(3)(a) are omitted. Scottish local authorities? (2) The Crown Estate is to be treated as a cross-border public Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, the local council in the authority for the purposes of sections 88 to 90 of the 1998 Act. Outer Hebrides, recently produced a paper on renewable energy that in fact turned out in large part to be about (3) In section 1(4) of the Crown Estate Act 1961, for “Secretary of State” wherever it appears, substitute “Scottish the limitations to development and the problems that Ministers”.’.—(Mr MacNeil.) the Crown Estate commissioners pose. It states: Brought up, and read the First time. “The current Crown Estate lease model is outdated, unfair and discriminatory and this inequality will be compounded as the industry grows…It is critical to the sustainability of the” Mr MacNeil: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. Outer Hebrides In discussing new clause 10, which stands in my name “that significant lease income from the growing marine energy and the names of my hon. Friends, I wish to present just industry is retained in the” a few simple questions to the Committee. Outer Hebrides. The people of the Outer Hebrides What accountability do Crown Estate commissioners “view their seas as they do their land…as a resource for the local have to Scotland? The head office of the commissioners community. Where possible, lease income from marine projects is here in London, the revenues for the Crown Estate are should follow the onshore wind model and remain in the” paid here in London, and the commissioners are not Outer Hebrides. obligated to report to the Scots Parliament, which is the “The islands of Scotland should” most democratic forum representing Scotland—instead, be permitted to they sparingly report to this Parliament. The Crown Estate commissioners in Scotland operate under Scots “play a more active part in management of their coastal waters law, because areas over which they take so much control, and should take a corresponding benefit from the resources present in these waters.” such as the foreshore and sea bed, are governed by Scots law. My argument is that the administration of The opinion of the Comhairle is that the advent of the Crown Estate in Scotland should be constituted and devolution has had a detrimental impact on the Crown controlled within Scots law and the Scottish Parliament. Estate, which has unfortunately moved Scotland accounts for 6% of the Crown Estate’s “further away from Scottish sea-based communities and lessened” moneys. Two years ago, that was £17 million, and last its year it was £13 million. People to whom I have spoken “accountability in Scotland. Crown Estate administration and consider the way in which the Crown Estate commissioners revenues of Scottish territorial waters should operate as part of operate in Scotland to be parasitic. Other than demanding the Scottish Government” money, the commissioners are felt not to conduct themselves in partnership with the appropriate local authority. The with much positive impact. In fact, they are found to be Comhairle states: quite menacing. Year after year around the nation’s coast, they leech their danegeld from harbours, ports, “Management of the local foreshore should transfer to the” moorings industries and some of the most fragile parts appropriate of the Scottish economy. In Stornoway alone, they take “Local Authority…The Crown Estate lease process is rigid and £17,000 from the port authority, whose tie I am wearing inflexible, incapable of responding to fast moving developments tonight. It is a galling circumstance in an island community in the marine energy sector…a more responsive process” to lose a greater part of a person’s wage to the is required to commissioners, when they plough no profits into the harbour or investment, unlike the port authority. The “accommodate speculative marine deployments outwith the terms port authority is dealing with a landlord—or a landlord of current or proposed lease bidding rounds.” agent—with no obligations at all. In addition, last year, That is fairly damning. for no visible return, £2.3 million vanished from the I understand that the Crown Estate commissioners salmon farm industry in Scotland, which must compete offer annual reports to the Houses of Parliament under with the sharp and capable Norwegians, among others. a compulsory legislative duty and do so to the Scots The commissioners sold portions of their urban portfolio Parliament out of courtesy. Although this Parliament from Edinburgh’s lucrative Princes street for an £8 million can hold the Crown Estate to account via the Chancellor loss to fund shopping centres and warehouses in England. of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for We have been told time and again by successive UK Scotland—in my opinion, it is not much of an account—the Governments that Scotland is not getting short-changed Scots Parliament holds no such right. 235 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 236

Let us look back at the genesis of all this. Robin We have a serious problem when one of the largest Callander’s book, “How Scotland is Owned”, outlines land managers in Scotland is not accountable to the the situation along these lines: although Scotland lost people of Scotland. The Crown Estate commissioners its independence in 1707—temporarily, I hope—it continues have a major impact on salmon farming, shellfish farming to be a sovereign nation and a stateless nation. In and aquaculture, they derive income from harbours and Scotland, sovereignty rests with the people, not in the moorings and they own the entire foreshore around persona of the monarch, as is the case in England. That Scotland, yet they have absolutely no legislative duty to is why we have had the King or Queen of Scots as speak to the Scottish Parliament. A group with that opposed to the King or Queen of England. The Crown much power should be accountable to the local communities identity in Scotland is as a representative of the sovereignty of Scotland, not the Chancellor of the Exchequer at of the people, hence the traditional phrase “the community No. 11 Downing street, which is many miles away. of the realm”. That difference was again seen in the 1680s with the 1688 Bill of Rights in England, but the Our new clause calls on the Crown Estate commissioners 1689 Claim of Right in Scotland. to do what they should be doing anyway. We are seeking that the Crown Estate revenues be devolved to Scotland As illustrated by the Comhairle’s statement, many and that the management of the estate come under the Scotsmen and women of either an historical bent or, as power of the Scots Government. We want the Crown in my case, Hebridean conditioning view the seas as a estate to become another Scottish success story, like the continuation of the land. It is perverse that the most NHS and the police, and we want to amend the 1961 Act democratic forum representing the sovereign Scottish with new clause 10. We hope to remove the restrictions people—the Scottish Parliament—does not have control in the Scotland Act 1998 that prevent the Scottish over the estates of the people’s representative. In many Government—and by extension the nation, the businesses cases, the Crown’s rights date back to the 13th and and the communities, including the islands and coastal 14th centuries, and some of these are distinctively Scottish communities, of Scotland—from running and directly Crown rights with no legal equivalent in the rest of the benefiting from the organisation. It is at best odd that UK. The Forestry Commission in Scotland used to act this particular function of the Crown was not devolved on similar lines to the Crown Estate, but its powers immediately, given that Scotland has more than 60% of have now been devolved to allow it to function as an the UK’s coastline. The Government’s plan for a Crown instrument of Scottish Government policy, which is Estate commissioner do not go far enough, because this what we need the Crown Estate to do at the level of person will be accountable to the Treasury, not Scotland— local authorities. more like a colonial administrator perhaps. The Crown The Crown Estate commission is a property management Estate commissioners should operate as a body under company that aims not at the public good but unfortunately Scots law, which is best accomplished by devolving their at the maximum extraction of revenue, as I have seen powers to the Scots Parliament and further to local and previously mentioned. The commission merely authorities. administers property rights and interests that comprise Before the Committee commences its usual assault the Crown Estate; it does not own the estate. In many on the ability of Scots to govern more than Westminster cases, it deals with Scottish public land with Crown wants, I want to draw attention to five Liberal Democrat property rights, which is certainly feudal behaviour. A MPs who supported a private Member’s Bill on the report by the Crown Estate working group in 2006 subject in 2006, including the hon. Members for Argyll stated that there is a stark contrast between and Bute (Mr Reid) and for Caithness, Sutherland and “the ways in which the public interest in the Crown’s ownership Easter Ross (John Thurso), the Chief Secretary to the of the seabed and public foreshore could be managed to complement Treasury and the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Scottish Executive’s policies designed to support rural, coastal Lochaber (Mr Kennedy)—I am sure that they will not and island communities and the public interest more generally.” have changed their views in the meantime and that That group was composed of The Highland council, government has not softened their strongly held beliefs. Highlands and Islands Enterprise, Orkney Islands council, In support of the private Member’s Bill, the right hon. Shetland Islands council, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar, Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) Argyll and Bute council, Moray council and the Convention said: of Scottish Local Authorities. “The notion that somebody other than the local community The group concluded—this is a lengthy but worthwhile should own the seabed, particularly around our islands, and make quote—that the money out of it for the Treasury, is quite offensive… The Crown Estate derives significant income from owning something the “administration and revenues of some of the property rights of communities have an absolute need for in terms of piers and the Crown in Scotland are already devolved to the Scottish harbours, cables, fish farms and now the prospect of offshore Executive. Others which are still managed by the CEC as part of windfarms. These are things we can’t do without.” the Crown Estate in Scotland could follow, for example, through the planned UK Marine Bill. In considering the case for a review, In November 2010, the Liberal Democrat MSP for some of the lesser property rights of the Crown in Scotland might Orkney said: be seen as historical anachronisms where reform will bring only modest benefits. However, reforming the management of Scotland’s “The Scotland Bill provides an opportunity to help coast seabed and public foreshore offers an opportunity to secure communities and our aquaculture and marine renewable energy benefits on what might be considered an historic scale to Scotland’s industries. The UK Government should review the Crown Estate’s coastal and island communities and the nation as a whole. The role in Scotland and look at using the Bill to devolve powers and reform of these property rights of the Crown in Scotland could be controls over the seabed.” as symbolic for Scotland as the Scottish Parliament’s abolition of other property rights of the Crown in Scotland with feudal Even a senior Liberal Democrat Whip spoke up when reform. The potential benefits for Scotland in this case, however, he called on the Secretary of State for Scotland to direct would be much more tangible and substantial.” the Crown Estate commissioners to relinquish their 237 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 238

[Mr MacNeil] amend the section from the Crown Estate Act 1961. The Secretary of State has powers of direction, which control of the Scottish seabed to local communities in the new clause would transfer to a Scottish Minister Scotland. I hope that those words will be followed up rather than to local communities. with action tonight. Another problem is the legal advice received by the As the land reformer Andy Wightman has said: Government about the operation of section 1(3). When “We thus now have a position where the Scottish Government the Secretary of State gave evidence to the Scottish supports the return of the administration and revenues of the Affairs Committee on 16 February, he was asked about Crown Estate to Scotland. It is joined by many others including the Crown Estate. He told us about the legal advice he the former Labour Minister of State at the Scotland Office, Brian Wilson, Highland Council, Professor James Hunter CBE, Orkney had received. He said that Islands Council, Lesley Riddoch”— “the power of direction remains a kind of power of last resort if the broadcaster— there are some very serious problems with the Crown Estate. The “the Scottish Islands Federation, Local People Leading…and power of direction is not an invitation to the Secretary of State to Reform Scotland”. micro-manage how the Crown Estate operates.” In 2010, The Highland Council said of this clause: By simply transferring that power of last resort to “The Highland Council is firmly of the view that Clause 18 of Scottish Ministers, the new clause is not going to achieve the Scotland Bill does not go far enough. The Council believes anything for local communities in Scotland. We need that the only way to ensure improved accountability and that much more radical reform of how the Crown Estate direct benefits are delivered to Scottish communities is through operates than that. fully devolving the management, administration and revenues of the Crown Estate in Scotland to Scottish Ministers in the first A lot of evidence was given to the Calman commission instance. Given the new management, regulation and planning to the effect that the Crown Estate was giving too great roles of Marine Scotland, the case for full devolution is even stronger.” a priority to maximising income. That is certainly correct, Crown Estate lands in Scotland are best managed by because the Crown Estate Act 1961 puts that duty on the Scots Government. Holyrood’s sole purpose is to the Crown Estate commissioners. We need a review of look out for the best interests of Scotland. By definition, the 1961 Act and an amendment to section 1(3). The the UK Parliament must have a different perspective. Scottish Affairs Committee has decided to investigate So far, that has meant cutting coastguards and the the operation of the Crown Estate in Scotland, and I armed forces in Scotland and increasing fuel taxes. A hope that out of that will come proposals for reform to Crown Estate that is only accountable to this place is allow powers genuinely to be transferred to local bound to act by that same logic. If the Government communities, so that they also benefit from the lease of truly intend to make the Bill the greatest act of devolution the sea bed and the foreshore. As the hon. Member for for 300 years, the Scots Government, of whichever Na h-Eileanan an Iar has pointed out, marine renewable party, should entirely run the Crown Estate lands in projects are likely to go ahead in Scottish waters in the Scotland. Anything else is utterly unacceptable. next few years, and I want the income from that to go to the local communities. Mr Reid: A lot of what the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) has said about the On the income from the Crown Estate, as the hon. Crown Estate is correct. It should be working much Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar has said, only 6% of more closely with local communities, and coastal its UK-wide income is generated in Scotland, which communities should be benefitting from the money that would mean Scotland being given only 6% of the Crown the Crown Estate gets from leasing the sea bed and Estate’s income. That does not seem to be a particularly foreshore. My problem with new clause 10 is that it does good deal in comparison with Scotland’s current share not tackle section 1(3) of the Crown Estate Act 1961, of UK public spending. The important point is that the which reads: income, instead of just disappearing into the coffers of “It shall be the general duty of the Commissioners, while the Scottish Government instead of going into the maintaining the Crown Estate as an estate in land (with such coffers of the Treasury, should actually go to local proportion of cash or investments as seems to them to be required communities. for the discharge of their functions), to maintain and enhance its value and the return obtained from it, but with due regard to the requirements of good management.” Mr MacNeil: I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and I am sure that many other 8pm people will be listening to—and especially looking at—it. Problematic in that section are the phrases “to maintain For the purpose of clarity, will he outline how he has and enhance” its value and the “return obtained from changed his viewpoint over the past few years on this it”. The problem with the new clause is that it does not issue? I hope getting into government is not the reason. tackle that section at all. It simply takes the power of direction from the Secretary of State and gives it to a Mr Reid: My viewpoint has not changed. I still want Scottish Minister. It means that the Crown Estate will to see the benefits from any developments going to local still have a duty to be a profit-making organisation. communities, and I want local communities to be much Mr MacNeil: What did the hon. Gentleman want a more involved in the planning stages, so that they can few years ago? affect any decisions about developments on the sea bed close to their island or coastal community. The point Mr Reid: I wanted what I still want—the devolution that I am making is that the new clause does not remove of power to local communities, so that the benefits go the duty on the Crown Estate commissioners to generate to those communities. As I have said, however, new revenue for the Treasury. The provision is defective in clause 10 does not deliver that, because it does not that regard. 239 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 240

Mr MacNeil: To sum up the hon. Gentleman’s views, Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I am then, London is best and control from London is best. sorry not to be able to support the new clause moved by the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), Mr Reid: I have already said umpteen times that I who is in many ways a walking advertisement for the want power devolved to local communities, which the Union. It would be a great loss to this Parliament if he hon. Gentleman’s new clause simply would not achieve. were not here and were prevented from coming here by I would have thought that in Argyll and Bute, as much a division between our two great countries. I am deeply as in the Western Isles, Edinburgh is not seen as part of concerned about his new clause. It is partly creeping the local community. The money would simply be republicanism, partly an attack on property and partly transferred from the Treasury to Edinburgh. It is not a subsidy to Scotland from the poor, hard-done-by going to help those local communities, and it will not English taxpayer, who has had enough of this and even help the Scottish budget, which would benefit wants a little bit of money to creep back south of the from only 6% of the income, which is less than Scotland’s border from time to time. current share of UK public expenditure, as I have Let me start with that sad day in March 1603, when pointed out. our beloved sovereign of blessed memory, Elizabeth, The ownership of the sea bed and the Crown Estate’s died. When she died, James VI was hailed as James I of management of it impacts on many remote communities, England, and we saw a mystical union of the Crowns: a which often have fragile economies and their own local mystical union that has remained true through not only culture. One fundamental policy of the Government is world wars but civil wars, and has brought our people the principle of localism, and I would like to see the together. We have come together as peoples in the Government implement that principle with regard to Crown, and as a result of a further development in the the Crown Estate. The Crown Estate must become Act of Union 1707, we have come together as a Crown much more democratically accountable to the communities in Parliament. Anything that attacks the Crown, that where it operates, and it must work much more closely with undermines the Crown, is something about which we, local communities in the planning stages of any representing one part of the Crown in Parliament—one developments, which must benefit those local communities part of the great system of government that we have— —for example, by making improvements to harbours should always be careful. and other local infrastructure or using the profits from the rent of the sea bed to set up funds for the benefit of Mr Weir: The hon. Gentleman’s history lesson is very the local community. interesting, but I am not sure why he sees the new clause I am sorry that I cannot support the new clause. As I as an attack on the Crown. The Crown Estate’s money have said, it is defective, because it does not touch does not go to the Crown; it goes to the Treasury. It was section 1(3) of the Crown Estate Act 1961. Given the signed over to the Treasury many years ago in exchange importance accorded by the Government to the localism for the civil list. The new clause attacks not the Crown agenda, I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us but the way in which the money is used, and is intended later that the Government have plans for the Crown to secure a better deal for our coastal communities. Estate in that regard. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank the hon. Gentleman for an Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab): The hon. extremely helpful intervention. It missed a key point. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) has carefully Indeed, the hon. Gentleman may wish his hon. Friend explained some of the technical problems with the new the Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar to withdraw his clause. What it proposes was not a recommendation new clause. made by the Holyrood Committee in its report last The Crown Estate’s income was not given away in week. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute made an perpetuity in exchange for the civil list; it is given reign important point when he said that devolution is not by reign. That started in the time of George III, who simply a one-way process from the UK Government to was a bit hard up at the time. He needed the money. the Scottish Government, but is also about transfers of Parliament had, and of course still has, tax-raising power from central Government—whether based in powers. In exchange for the Crown Estate’s income, London or Edinburgh—to bring about more localised George III accepted the civil list. That continued during control. It about not only having powers, but how those the reigns of George IV, William IV, Queen Victoria, powers are going to be used and made accountable to Edward VII and George V, the brief reign of Edward local communities. VIII and the reign of George VI, and it continues during the reign of our present most glorious sovereign. It is interesting to note that the hon. Member for However, it is not a permanent settlement. Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) has raised the issue of the Forestry Commission. It was his party’s Any step that undermines or changes the Crown Administration in Holyrood, of course, who were the Estate should be taken with the greatest caution. I hope first to propose privatisation of Forestry Commission that the day never comes, but if we were to have another land. Thankfully, there was a successful public campaign sovereign, that sovereign would be entitled to claim the in Scotland—just as we recently saw in England—which Crown Estate for himself. If we had introduced measures forced the Scottish Government to reverse their policy. I that took it away, we would have broken the bargain note from recent reports, however, that they are continuing that was made in the reign of George III and has been to sell off much more forestry land than they are renewed in subsequent reigns. We should be extremely purchasing from the Forestry Commission. That brings wary of interfering with a system that has worked us back to the question of how powers are used. The so well. Opposition will not support the new clause, but we I also want to deal with the attack on property rights, hope to come back to this matter with our own amendments which are the fundamental basis of a free society and on Report. the rule of law. I know that some hon. Members like me 241 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 242

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman is making an extraordinary speech. I have received an e-mail from a to dwell on history occasionally. We know that rights colleague who has been watching it and who describes it of property have been established in this country as “epic”. It certainly is, in an 1842 kind of way. since 1189— However, I have a question for the hon. Gentleman. He talks of “rapacious socialism” and of the seizing of Stewart Hosie: Which country? land. The Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, which came into being after the establishment of the Scottish Jacob Rees-Mogg: This country, England, which is Parliament, allows those on estates to buy the land on where we are now. Those rights of property, established which they live. Would he wish it to be repealed to in this country, England, were passed to Scotland by protect what he views as the property rights that he is virtue of the Act of Union. It is well established that the defending? combination of Parliaments that resulted in the inheritor Parliament—this Parliament—merged the benefits of the two earlier Parliaments. The rights of property that Jacob Rees-Mogg: Had I been a Member of Parliament we enjoy are the foundation of our free society. at the time, I would have opposed leasehold reform. I thought that it was an outrageous attack on property Ann McKechin: I declare an interest as a member of rights, and I would have taken the same view had I been the Law Society of Scotland. Scotland has always had a a Member of the Scottish Parliament. I think that very distinct property law system. It was the first in the property rights are of overwhelming importance, and world to involve a public register, and it remains distinct that the new clause is genuinely dangerous in seeking to to this day. undermine them. As I was saying, my three reasons for opposing the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I entirely accept that Scotland has new clause are the attack on property rights, the attack its distinct characteristics. They are, in many ways, on the Crown—that mystical union of Crowns that we extraordinarily admirable and worthy, and they have have had since 1603—and the loss of revenue for the the full support of those who support the Union. We do English. I feel that I must stand up for the people of not want an homogenised United Kingdom. I have north-east Somerset. They do not benefit from as much never been a great believer in homogenisation, whether spending per capita on the health service, the police or it be of cultures, nations or, for that matter, milk. education as those north of the border. I accept that, However, it is important to recognise the rights of because I believe in the Union and I think it a price property. The new clause seeks to confiscate the revenue worth paying, but the price must be fair. The revenues that would come to the Crown Estate and take it for that are ultimately the revenues of the state must come local communities—whoever they may be. centrally, and must be shared out proportionately. When the Scots start asking “Why do we not have Crown Mr Reid: The new clause does not do that. It merely Estate revenue for the territory and the sea around transfers the power of direction of the Crown Estate Scotland?”, I may respond by asking why people living from the Secretary of State for Scotland to a Scottish in London do not say “We will have the revenues from Minister, and that is why I consider it defective. It does the Crown Estate in London, and we will not allow any not take the property that is in the seabed and give it to subsidy to be given to Scotland.” That, I think, would local communities. make the Scots rather upset. A good deal more money comes from places such as Pall Mall, which is owned by 8.15 pm the Crown, than from the seashore. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I listened carefully to the speech of the Mr MacNeil: I had not taken the hon. Gentleman to hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar, and he made be a fan of Scottish independence. I will clearly have to clear that his intention was to undermine the rights of review that, given his latest utterances. property. That is why the new clause is so dangerous. The money that comes from any wind farms that may Jacob Rees-Mogg: I said earlier that I was against be established offshore in Scotland belongs to the Crown Scottish independence, because if we had it we would Estate, and the Crown Estate’s income is used for the not benefit from such helpful and informative interventions benefit of the whole United Kingdom. To pinch it and as the one that we have just heard from the hon. say “We will have it for Na h-Eileanan an Iar”—or for Gentleman. some similar part of the country, or for communities within Na h-Eileanan an Iar—would, in my view, be Mr Reid: I think that the hon. Gentleman has wholly inappropriate, and would constitute a fundamental miscalculated. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an attack on the property rights of the Crown Estate. Iar is being principled. He believes in Scottish independence. Once one attacks the property rights of the Crown Transferring the Crown Estate in its entirety would be Estate, whose property rights will one not attack? If one disadvantageous to Scotland, because only 6% of the attacks the property rights of the highest in the land, profits are generated there. That is less than Scotland’s what protection will there be for anyone else? What current share of public expenditure. The new clause protection will there be for the person in his humble ought to appeal to the hon. Gentleman in financial cottage? If one attacks the Crown, the person in his terms. humble cottage will feel the threat. He will feel the hot breath of rapacious socialism bearing down upon him. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that those of us who He will feel not the least bit safe on the land that he support the Union are also being principled. These tax owns. revenues—these forms that generate income for the 243 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 244 state—must be preserved in their entirety. Once we start radical options for the future development of the Crown cutting them up bit by bit, we end up making calculations Estate but that time was needed to consider them. We and saying “Actually, Scotland is receiving rather too agree with the Committee when it says that it noted little from the Crown Estate rather than too much.” I do with some interest that the Scottish Affairs Committee not think that that argument works. I think that the in the House of Commons will review the work of the Crown Estate must be viewed as a whole, as an indivisible Crown Estate commissioners in Scotland, and that that part of an indivisible Crown. That is what I want to see: was an important development. The Secretary of State the traditional constitutional position which this country for Scotland’s positive attitude to this initiative was also has enjoyed and which has made it such a great nation. noted. That sums up the Government’s position. We Let us have no more attacks on private property or the greatly welcome the inquiry that the Scottish Affairs indivisibility of the Crown, and let us have a reasonable Committee has said that it will carry out into the settlement in taxation between the people of England operation of the Crown Estate in Scotland. That will and the people of Scotland, not to mention those of present an opportunity for the hon. Member for Argyll Northern Ireland and Wales, who also deserve their fair and Bute and others who have strong views about the share of the total pie of economic wealth. Crown Estate to set them out, and the Government will look closely at the outcome of that inquiry. David Mundell: I welcome the contribution of my What we will not do is respond favourably to dogma hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset and to a view that the Crown Estate should simply be (Jacob Rees-Mogg), because I am afraid that our debates devolved for the sake of doing so. Although I have no on matters Scottish tend to become somewhat homogenous, hope that the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar and it is good to have a different perspective on our will do so, I ask him to withdraw the motion for his new deliberations. It was also good to hear again about the clause. threat of the hot breath of rapacious socialism and the harm that it can do in Scotland, because we need to Mr MacNeil: I noted that the hon. Member for hear that. As we near the forthcoming Scottish Parliament Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) said that coastal communities elections, I will urge my colleagues to do their best to should benefit, but I was told earlier by a Liberal repel that threat. Democrat that they would look to mess about with a My hon. Friend’s contribution was in marked contrast pretended technicality. Unfortunately, that is the usual to that of the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar stance of the Liberal Democrats: on the one hand it is (Mr MacNeil), who again sped through his speech, not enough, yet on the other hand it is too much, and which was simply a recounting of the usual dogma. the upshot is that they want to leave it all with London. Instead of making a coherent case, he simply said that They will be judged in Scotland, so at least we will the Crown Estate should be devolved to Scotland because probably all be saved from having to listen to their pious everything should be devolved to Scotland. words for years to come. In short, their position is that London is best, helping local communities is not on Those of us who have been present in the Chamber their agenda, and they will be voting for the status quo. throughout the deliberations on this Bill noted yet Highlanders will know what to do at the May elections: again the strong divergence between what we have come sweep the Liberal Democrats away at the ballot box. to know as London SNP and Edinburgh SNP.Although Both the hon. Gentleman and Labour talk about local the hon. Gentleman launched an attack on the Crown communities, but do nothing about that. Estate, none other than Jim Mather, SNP Energy Minister The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob in Scotland, has said that the Scottish Government Rees-Mogg), whom I have great respect for and like “greatly value the strong working relationship with the Crown personally, pronounces Na h-Eileanan an Iar very well. estate commissioners as it helps us all to ensure that Scotland He did so not once, not twice, not three times, not four leads the UK in giving wave and tidal energy developers opportunities times, but five times. All I can say is he must have had a to harness the power of our seas.” very good teacher. I should tell him, however, that The characterisation of the Crown Estate by the hon. Crown rights in Scotland long predate George III. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar was therefore misleading. Although I take on board the points that the hon. Jacob Rees-Mogg: For the benefit of the Committee, Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) made about the I should say that the hon. Gentleman himself was my operation of the Crown Estate, and acknowledge that teacher. he is a doughty campaigner for change to the estate, I am afraid that I do not recognise the characterisation of Mr MacNeil: I accept any accolades coming my way. the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar. As he I should also point out to the hon. Gentleman that knows, the Secretary of State has sought to engage with this new clause contains no republican agenda whatever. the Crown Estate, and the estate has moved forward in a In fact, ideas of republicanism were not anywhere near number of positive ways, such as through the production the front, let alone the back, of my mind when I was of its annual report, and the meetings it has with framing it and making my speech. The new clause Scottish Ministers, MSPs, Scottish local authorities and addresses the difficulties facing local communities; it is many interest groups. not an attack on property rights in Scotland, and the However, although there are positive aspects to the issue addressed here extends further than the Union of development of the Crown Estate, the Government the Crowns, as I have said. Those property rights could recognise that a number of issues have been raised be abolished by the Scottish Parliament. It has the during the progress of the Scotland Bill and following powers to do that, although it would be what has been the Calman deliberations, which is why we look in described as the nuclear option. These property rights particular to the Scottish Parliament LCM Committee are controlled by the Scottish Parliament, and they report, which stated that it had identified a number of could be gone. 245 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 246

Mr Reid: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the Robertson, Angus Tellers for the Ayes: Scottish Parliament already has those powers. He has Weir, Mr Mike Stewart Hosie and not responded to what I said earlier about section 1(3) Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Pete Wishart of the Crown Estate Act 1961, however. The hon. Williams, Hywel Gentleman says his new clause will do great things for highland communities, but how is transferring the 6% NOES of the profits of the Crown Estate from London to Abrahams, Debbie Byles, Dan Edinburgh going to benefit local communities? Adams, Nigel Cable, rh Vince Afriyie, Adam Campbell, Mr Alan Mr MacNeil: The hon. Gentleman has been living in Aldous, Peter Campbell, Mr Gregory Scotland long enough to know that Ministers in Scotland Alexander, Heidi Carmichael, Neil and the Scottish Parliament are far more susceptible to Ali, Rushanara Carswell, Mr Douglas pressure from communities in Scotland than the Chancellor Amess, Mr David Cash, Mr William of the Exchequer is at 11 Downing street. Anderson, Mr David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Andrew, Stuart Chishti, Rehman The hon. Member for North East Somerset will not Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Clark, rh Greg be surprised to learn that I am no great fan of the 1707 Austin, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Union, but I am quite relaxed about the 1603 Union Bacon, Mr Richard Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey and the maintenance of Her Majesty as the Queen. The Bagshawe, Ms Louise Clwyd, rh Ann hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Steve Rotheram) Bailey, Mr Adrian Coffey, Dr Thérèse put it to me that Scotland does indeed have a king and Bain, Mr William Collins, Damian his name is Kenny, but that is a little beside the point. I Baker, Norman Connarty, Michael am happy to maintain the Crown, as Canada, Australia Baker, Steve Crabb, Stephen and New Zealand do. My point is about the movement Baldry, Tony Creasy, Stella of powers from Westminster to the most democratic Baldwin, Harriett Crockart, Mike forum representing Scotland, which is the Scottish Banks, Gordon Crouch, Tracey Barclay, Stephen Cruddas, Jon Parliament—that is the right way to proceed. Barker, Gregory Cunningham, Alex Baron, Mr John Cunningham, Mr Jim Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab): The hon. Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Tony Gentleman says that he has no wish for his contribution Barwell, Gavin Dakin, Nic to be viewed as republicanism. What are his views on Bebb, Guto David, Mr Wayne republicanism? Begg, Dame Anne Davidson, Mr Ian Beith, rh Sir Alan Davies, David T. C. Mr MacNeil: I think it works quite well in America, Bellingham, Mr Henry (Monmouth) Ireland and France— Benn, rh Hilary Davies, Geraint Benyon, Richard Davies, Glyn 8.30 pm Beresford, Sir Paul de Bois, Nick Berger, Luciana De Piero, Gloria Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): It Berry, Jake Denham, rh Mr John does not work well in Ireland. Betts, Mr Clive Dinenage, Caroline Bingham, Andrew Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Mr MacNeil: I should have known that someone Binley, Mr Brian Dobbin, Jim from the economic powerhouse that is Northern Ireland Birtwistle, Gordon Docherty, Thomas was sitting behind me—I say that with irony. Blackman-Woods, Roberta Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Blackwood, Nicola Doran, Mr Frank Unfortunately, the Minister indulges in the usual Blears, rh Hazel Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen slurs and dogma, and he is wrong in some of his Blenkinsop, Tom Dorries, Nadine assertions. He said nothing about helping communities; Blomfield, Paul Doyle, Gemma he tried to pin all this on some sort of political agenda Boles, Nick Doyle-Price, Jackie in the Scottish National party. The new clause is not Bone, Mr Peter Drax, Richard about that; it is about the powers people need to affect Bottomley, Sir Peter Dugher, Michael the day-to-day occurrences in their communities and Bradley, Karen Duncan, rh Mr Alan around their islands. Tonight, people will see past the Brady, Mr Graham Dunne, Mr Philip words of certain politicians. Brake, Tom Efford, Clive Bray, Angie Ellis, Michael Fiona O’Donnell: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Brazier, Mr Julian Ellison, Jane Brennan, Kevin Ellman, Mrs Louise Mr MacNeil: No. I do not know when we last had a Bridgen, Andrew Ellwood, Mr Tobias vote on this, but tonight’s vote will enable people to Brine, Mr Steve Elphicke, Charlie make many judgments for years to come. We will judge Brokenshire, James Esterson, Bill this for years to come. Brooke, Annette Eustice, George Brown, Mr Russell Evans, Chris Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Bruce, Fiona Evans, Graham The Committee divided: Ayes 8, Noes 448. Buckland, Mr Robert Evans, Jonathan Burley, Mr Aidan Evennett, Mr David Division No. 227] [8.31 pm Burns, Conor Fabricant, Michael Burns, rh Mr Simon Farron, Tim AYES Burstow, Paul Featherstone, Lynne Durkan, Mark MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Burt, Alistair Field, rh Mr Frank Edwards, Jonathan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Burt, Lorely Field, Mr Mark 247 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 248

Flello, Robert Holloway, Mr Adam McDonnell, John Robertson, Hugh Flint, rh Caroline Hood, Mr Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Robertson, John Flynn, Paul Hopkins, Kelvin McGovern, Jim Rogerson, Dan Foster, rh Mr Don Hopkins, Kris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Rosindell, Andrew Fovargue, Yvonne Horwood, Martin McIntosh, Miss Anne Rotheram, Steve Francis, Dr Hywel Howarth, Mr Gerald McKechin, Ann Roy, Mr Frank Francois, rh Mr Mark Howell, John McKinnell, Catherine Roy, Lindsay Freeman, George Huhne, rh Chris McPartland, Stephen Ruane, Chris Freer, Mike Hunt, Tristram McVey, Esther Rudd, Amber Fullbrook, Lorraine Hunter, Mark Meale, Mr Alan Ruddock, rh Joan Fuller, Richard Hurd, Mr Nick Mearns, Ian Rutley, David Gale, Mr Roger Irranca-Davies, Huw Menzies, Mark Sanders, Mr Adrian Gapes, Mike Jackson, Mr Stewart Metcalfe, Stephen Sandys, Laura Garnier, Mr Edward James, Margot Michael, rh Alun Scott, Mr Lee Garnier, Mark James, Mrs Siân C. Miller, Andrew Seabeck, Alison Gauke, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Miller, Maria Selous, Andrew Gibb, Mr Nick Jarvis, Dan Mills, Nigel Shapps, rh Grant Gilbert, Stephen Javid, Sajid Milton, Anne Sharma, Alok Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Jenkin, Mr Bernard Moon, Mrs Madeleine Sheridan, Jim Gilmore, Sheila Johnson, Diana Mordaunt, Penny Shuker, Gavin Glass, Pat Johnson, Gareth Morgan, Nicky Simmonds, Mark Glen, John Johnson, Joseph Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Simpson, Mr Keith Glindon, Mrs Mary Jones, Andrew Morris, Anne Marie Skidmore, Chris Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Mr David Morris, David Skinner, Mr Dennis Goodman, Helen Jones, Graham Morris, Grahame M. Smith, rh Mr Andrew Goodwill, Mr Robert Jones, Mr Kevan (Easington) Smith, Angela Graham, Richard Jones, Mr Marcus Morris, James Smith, Henry Grant, Mrs Helen Joyce, Eric Mosley, Stephen Smith, Julian Gray, Mr James Kawczynski, Daniel Mowat, David Smith, Owen Grayling, rh Chris Kelly, Chris Mulholland, Greg Smith, Sir Robert Greatrex, Tom Kendall, Liz Mundell, rh David Soubry, Anna Green, Damian Kirby, Simon Munn, Meg Spellar, rh Mr John Green, Kate Knight, rh Mr Greg Munt, Tessa Spencer, Mr Mark Greenwood, Lilian Kwarteng, Kwasi Murphy, rh Paul Stanley, rh Sir John Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Laing, Mrs Eleanor Murray, Ian Stephenson, Andrew Griffith, Nia Lamb, Norman Murray, Sheryll Stevenson, John Griffiths, Andrew Lancaster, Mark Murrison, Dr Andrew Stewart, Bob Gummer, Ben Lavery, Ian Nash, Pamela Stewart, Iain Gwynne, Andrew Lazarowicz, Mark Neill, Robert Stewart, Rory Gyimah, Mr Sam Leadsom, Andrea Newton, Sarah Streeter, Mr Gary Hain, rh Mr Peter Lee, Jessica Nokes, Caroline Stride, Mel Halfon, Robert Lee, Dr Phillip Norman, Jesse Stringer, Graham Hamilton, Mr David Leech, Mr John Nuttall, Mr David Stuart, Ms Gisela Hamilton, Fabian Lefroy, Jeremy O’Donnell, Fiona Stuart, Mr Graham Hammond, rh Mr Philip Leigh, Mr Edward Offord, Mr Matthew Stunell, Andrew Hammond, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Hancock, Matthew Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Onwurah, Chi Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Hands, Greg Lewis, Brandon Opperman, Guy Swales, Ian Harper, Mr Mark Lewis, Mr Ivan Paice, rh Mr James Swayne, Mr Desmond Harris, Rebecca Lewis, Dr Julian Parish, Neil Swinson, Jo Harris, Mr Tom Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Patel, Priti Swire, rh Mr Hugo Hart, Simon Lidington, rh Mr David Pawsey, Mark Syms, Mr Robert Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lilley, rh Mr Peter Pearce, Teresa Tami, Mark Hayes, Mr John Lloyd, Stephen Penrose, John Teather, Sarah Heald, Mr Oliver Lopresti, Jack Percy, Andrew Thomas, Mr Gareth Healey, rh John Lord, Jonathan Phillips, Stephen Thornberry, Emily Heath, Mr David Loughton, Tim Phillipson, Bridget Thurso, John Heaton-Harris, Chris Love, Mr Andrew Pickles, rh Mr Eric Timpson, Mr Edward Hemming, John Lucas, Ian Pincher, Christopher Tomlinson, Justin Henderson, Gordon Luff, Peter Poulter, Dr Daniel Tredinnick, David Hendrick, Mark Lumley, Karen Prisk, Mr Mark Trickett, Jon Hendry, Charles Macleod, Mary Pritchard, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Hepburn, Mr Stephen Mactaggart, Fiona Pugh, John Turner, Karl Herbert, rh Nick Main, Mrs Anne Raab, Mr Dominic Twigg, Derek Hermon, Lady Marsden, Mr Gordon Randall, rh Mr John Twigg, Stephen Heyes, David May, rh Mrs Theresa Reckless, Mark Umunna, Mr Chuka Hilling, Julie Maynard, Paul Redwood, rh Mr John Uppal, Paul Hinds, Damian McCarthy, Kerry Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vaizey, Mr Edward Hoban, Mr Mark McCartney, Jason Reevell, Simon Vara, Mr Shailesh Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McCartney, Karl Reid, Mr Alan Vaz, rh Keith Hollingbery, George McClymont, Gregg Reynolds, Jonathan Vaz, Valerie Hollobone, Mr Philip McDonagh, Siobhain Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Vickers, Martin 249 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 250

Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Williamson, Chris change the lives of millions. The Government can make Walker, Mr Charles Williamson, Gavin these changes and the Scots Parliament has no redress. Walker, Mr Robin Wilson, Phil It has been and will continue to be argued that it will be Walley, Joan Wilson, Mr Rob impossible for someone in Scotland to call someone in Walter, Mr Robert Wilson, Sammy England because of the time difference, which is bunkum, Ward, Mr David Winterton, rh Ms Rosie or that it will not be possible to take a train, because it is Watkinson, Angela Wollaston, Dr Sarah Weatherley, Mike beyond the capability of the human mind for someone Woodcock, John to adjust their watch by an hour—again, bunkum. I Webb, Steve Wright, David Wharton, James have faith that everyone can adapt to the slightest Wright, Mr Iain change. Wheeler, Heather Wright, Simon Whitehead, Dr Alan Yeo, Mr Tim Whittaker, Craig Young, rh Sir George Mark Lazarowicz: I am not sure why the hon. Gentleman Wicks, rh Malcolm Zahawi, Nadhim has changed his position from the one that he took in Wiggin, Bill the debate on 26 January 2007 on the Energy Saving Willetts, rh Mr David Tellers for the Noes: (Daylight) Bill, when he said: Williams, Roger James Duddridge and Williams, Stephen Miss Chloe Smith “Unfortunately, we cannot go down the two time zones route. . . We cannot have two different time zones in the UK.” Question accordingly negatived. When pressed by some amazed MPs, the hon. Gentleman repeated that “we cannot operate two time zones”.—[Official Report, 26 January New Clause 11 2007; Vol. 455, c. 1733.] He said a third time in that debate that he could not TIME support two time zones in the UK, but his new clause ‘In Schedule 5, section L, subsection L5 of the 1998 Act the would allow precisely that. I wonder why he has changed words “, time zones and the subject matter of the Summer Time Act 1972.” are deleted.’.—(Mr MacNeil.) his position. Brought up, and read the First time. Mr MacNeil: My position has not changed. The 8.45 pm point of the new clause is to make sure that nothing is foisted on Scotland. It will also put the brakes on any Mr MacNeil: I beg to move, That the clause be read a attempt to introduce two time zones. Second time. This is my third speech of the evening and I plan not to take too much time about it. The hon. Member for Sheila Gilmore: No one is more against the proposal Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) asked to change the time zones than I am, because I lived whether we could have the past five hours back. For through the previous experiment and it was awful. most of that I blame the hon. Member for Central However, the hon. Gentleman said that he did not want Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), who took up more than half two time zones, but if his new clause was accepted and that time. the UK Parliament voted to change the hours, the effect would be just that—two time zones. My ongoing dispute with the assignation of time in the UK is firmly on record, with three speeches in Hansard over the past few years. It is my intention with Mr MacNeil: My new clause would make it unlikely—or the new clause to put an end to my shouting at the sun even impossible—that a time change could be foisted that happens periodically in this place. The new clause on the people of Scotland, because of people’s fear of has more to do with how we deal with the amount of having a change in time zones. sunlight that we have in Scotland and how that relates More astute Members will know that my new clause to time. It deals with any changes to the clocks in does not call for a separate Scottish time zone. What I the UK. am saying is that if the UK Government make a decision As anyone north of Manchester knows, the northern regarding time systems, the Scots Parliament should part of the island known as Great Britain and the have the right to make the best choice for Scotland. islands to the west and the north of Great Britain are That is not a revolutionary or novel suggestion: the subject to very odd sunlight patterns at times, owing to Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont has that power, our longitude and latitude and the alignment of our as does the Parliament of the Isle of Man. I note that islands. We have very different periods of daylight in the they have not yet changed their time systems, even UK, both summer and winter. Our winter days are though they have the right to do so to address the needs short, with sunrise not happening till 9 am, so we must of the people of Northern Ireland or the Isle of Man. be able to adjust our clocks for the best use of time. The Scottish Government should have the same powers. Over the past few centuries, politicians have been bringing forward proposals to address the issue, with the most Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): My recent proposal occurring in this Parliament as a private constituency would be significantly affected if there was Member’s Bill, when the hon. Member for Castle Point a different time zone just down the road from Berwick- (Rebecca Harris) demonstrated that there is still a drive upon-Tweed. Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise to change the clocks unilaterally. that in many ways he would make it easier for the UK At present, 65% of Scots are against changing the Government, looking at the matter from an English clocks, according to a YouGov survey in February 2010. point of view, to create a time system that was unwelcome However, if fewer than 300 MPs at Westminster voted in Scotland, because English MPs could say, “Well, to change the clocks in the UK, those MPs would Scotland can do what it likes. We’re doing what’s best 251 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 252 for England”? With the large of number of English Sammy Wilson: I do not think that anyone in Northern MPs, he might finish up with precisely the results that Ireland would give two hoots whether the power was he most fears. surrendered or not, because if we are never going to exercise it, why would we worry about losing or gaining it? Mr MacNeil: I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point, but the realpolitik of the situation would make that Mr MacNeil: I say to the hon. Gentleman, tongue in highly unlikely. It is far more likely that something that cheek, that it is “Maybe surrender” from the DUP. the Scottish people did not want would be foisted on The point is not about using that power, but about them. the authority that comes from having it. It is about having that club in the golf bag or in the locker. That Mr Frank Roy: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that speaks to a wider problem with devolution: the UK if his new clause won the day, there would be a far Parliament can potentially take damaging action against greater possibility of two time zones? a nation of the Union, but that nation’s Parliament or Assembly has, in the main, no redress and must accept Mr MacNeil: I would ask the hon. Gentleman whether the action. This might sound a bit drastic, but the way he prefers the possibility of a time zone that the Scots the Scotland Act is designed ensures that the UK do not want being foisted on them to having two Government, for better or worse, have unilateral power different time zones in the UK. I would prefer the Scots to make substantial decisions for the entire UK, regardless to be able to control their own time zone to the possibility of what another part of the UK thinks. of something being foisted on them, so that they had Of course, Members should be reminded that “UK the same power as the Northern Ireland Assembly in Government” does not mean this Parliament, as we saw Stormont and the people of the Isle of Man. with the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999, which affected 6,000 square miles of Scottish Mark Lazarowicz: I genuinely do not understand waters, as was mentioned earlier. I understand that the how the hon. Gentleman has changed his position from current Government are not committed to changing the the one that he took in 2007. His new clause would not clocks, but I would sleep much better at night if we give Scotland a veto power; it would give it the power to could ensure that a clock change would have to be decide on time zones and the subject matter of the agreed by the Scots’ Parliament and that we had that Summer Time Act 1972. He is bringing the possibility power in Scotland before it took effect. It speaks volumes of having two different time zones closer, as the right that the opposition to independence, and even to full hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) fiscal autonomy or control over time, is full of the pointed out. The hon. Gentleman’s new clause would politics of fear. not give Scotland a veto power, and if that is what he wants, why has he not tabled a new clause that would? Mr Russell Brown: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr MacNeil: The question of a veto goes both ways. I would not seek to veto what the good people of Mr MacNeil: No, you’re fine. England might want to do, but they would be far less If the Government and the unionist parties truly likely to do it, given the realpolitik of the situation, if believe that this is an economic arrangement that is in the people entering the argument on both sides had that the best interests of the people who live in the islands, power. I am seeking to give the Scots Parliament the they have nothing to fear by giving Scotland control same authority as Stormont—an Assembly that seems over clocks, coastguards, elections and fiscal autonomy—the to have a number of dispensations, including on corporation whole gamut. There is usually nothing but dogma blocking tax and, in this case, time—and the Isle of Man. good sense.

Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): Does the hon. Iain Stewart: It is with a heavy heart that I rise to Gentleman recognise, first, that this was not a power oppose the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for that was specifically sought by the Assembly at Stormont? Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil)—I hope my Secondly, the freedom that he seeks through the new pronunciation is acceptable. As he mentioned, we had clause implies the ability to exercise it. However, I an interesting debate on the private Member’s Bill on cannot think of anyone in Northern Ireland who would daylight savings before Christmas. He and I, along with wish to exercise it, for all the reasons that have been an eclectic mix of Members, went into the No Lobby to given so far, the main one being the disruption to oppose it. I agree with him about the effects that central movement between the two parts of the United Kingdom. European time or double summer time, whatever we call it, would have on Scotland, on other parts of the Mr MacNeil: It may or may not be a power that UK and on various categories of workers in different people in Northern Ireland wish to exercise, but it is a industries. I am at one with him on that and have great power that they have. It would probably not be a power sympathy with his motives, but I cannot agree with the that anyone would choose to exercise in Scotland either, methodology he uses to arrive at his conclusions. I agree but it would certainly make the Scottish hand an awful with my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- lot stronger in any negotiations with Westminster, as the Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who noted that the new clause, complexion of the Government changed over time. if successful, would make it easier for the House to What I would ask the hon. Gentleman is whether he approve a move to central European time or double would wish to surrender that power to Westminster or summer time and that we would end up with two time whether he would keep it. zones in the UK. 253 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 254

[Iain Stewart] Mr Weir: I take it, then, that the hon. Gentleman’s friend would be terrified of taking the Eurostar to Before moving on to some of the practical difficulties France. that such a move would entail, I caution the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar against opening up Iain Stewart: The devolution of tax powers to Normandy head L5 of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, because or Brittany is slightly outwith the scope of this Bill, so I along with will not risk the ire of Mr Benton by going down that “Timescales, time zones and the subject-matter of the Summer route. Time Act 1972”, If there were a different time zone and England were a host of other matters are reserved, including an hour behind Scotland, my friend could board the “The calendar; units of time; the date of Easter”. train in Glasgow before midnight and arrive in England We are already in enough trouble with Cardinal Keith before midnight, so goodness knows what tax status he O’Brien about other matters before we start tinkering would incur for that journey. We often hear of the with the date of Easter, so I urge some caution in going Bermuda triangle, but I do not want to introduce a down that route. Beattock triangle. As Members have explained, it would be hugely Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Does impractical to have different time zones within the UK. the hon. Gentleman think that arriving before one sets Other countries, of course, do have different time zones: off is a contradiction of the general law of relativity? Australia has four, Canada has six and Russia has eight. However, Australia is 2.9 million square miles in size, Canada 3.8 million square miles and Russia 6.6 million Iain Stewart: I am grateful for that information. square miles. The UK is 94,000 square miles in size. To Unfortunately I ceased to study physics after higher have different time zones in a relatively small geographic grade, so I am not qualified to go down that route. area is ludicrous. I can think of all sorts of practical The example I cite is perhaps slightly silly but there is difficulties that that would entail, particularly for people a sensible point. It illustrates the practical difficulties living in areas on either side of the border. People in that would arise if we had different time zones in a Carlisle and Dumfries, for example, would have all sorts small geographical area. Although I am at one with the of problems adjusting their clocks as they went back hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar in opposing the and forward over the border. Would “News at Ten” be introduction of central European time or any other subject to the Trades Description Act if it did not Europeanisation of our time in this country, I must broadcast as “News at Ten (but Nine o’clock in Scotland)”? reluctantly oppose the new clause. I urge him and other Opposition Members to continue to oppose any moves 9pm in this place to introduce such a time zone in Scotland or anywhere else in the United Kingdom. Mr Davidson: If there had been a different time, would the news of the Barnsley by-election result have Mr Russell Brown: I will be brief. My hon. Friend the arrived sometime in the middle of the morning? Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) mentioned something that is not a pastime of every Iain Stewart: The hon. Gentleman mentions an important Scot, despite what some people might think. It relates to reason why we should resist such a measure. I recall his drinking hours and what would happen if we operated state of excitement and sleeplessness as he awaited the in two different time zones. result, and he might have had to wait a little longer to receive the information that he sought. I think back to many years ago when the pubs in Scotland used to close at 10 pm, whereas in Carlisle and Mr Davidson: Is it not possible that I might have in Cumbria, on the border, they closed at 11. We saw heard the Barnsley by-election result before the polls people walking down the road at 10 o’clock closing in had closed in Barnsley? Scotland and heading for the first hotel to partake of their pastime in Cumbria, so the hon. Member for The Temporary Chair (Mr Joe Benton): Order. I think Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) needs to be very we have heard enough about the Barnsley by-election. careful. Can we please come back to new clause 11? Mr MacNeil: My new clause does not call for two Iain Stewart: I certainly shall, Mr Benton. The hon. time zones. Having lived in Gretna, I should like to Gentleman tempted me down an interesting path. know how long it would take me to walk from there to Members who were present yesterday when we debated Carlisle for a pint. I suggest that it would be more than clause 26, which relates to the definition of a Scottish an hour, and that the bars would be closed by the time I taxpayer, might recall our discussions about how to got there. define a Scottish taxpayer based on their place of residence at the end of the day. I expressed some concern for my Mr Brown: I must tell the hon. Gentleman that we friend who would be travelling on the Caledonian sleeper have moved on: we now have trains, buses and taxis, so and mentioned the uncertainty that would arise if he people would not necessarily walk. boarded the train in Glasgow or Edinburgh at, say, I want to get back to the debate on the hon. Gentleman’s 10.30 pm and was in Scotland at the end of the day as new clause, because I want the House to have time to far as that was concerned, but the train crossed the debate new clause 19 as well. The hon. Member for border at midnight. I asked, would he be in Scotland or Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) said that the hon. England for tax purposes? We would now add in a Gentleman’s proposal was ludicrous; I would go further different time zone. and say that it is sheer lunacy. In January 2007, the 255 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 256

Energy Saving (Daylight) Bill was introduced by the Mr Frank Roy: Does my hon. Friend agree that the hon. Member for South Suffolk (Mr Yeo).Many Members only way to have two time zones in the United Kingdom might have considered supporting it, but for the fact is to vote for the new clause? that it contained a nasty clause that gave the devolved Administrations the opportunity to opt out. I ask the Fiona O’Donnell: Absolutely; I could not have put it hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar and others who more simply. My headache immediately disappears and support his proposal to consider how the drivers in a we have clarity. small haulage business based in two locations, let us say There are some questions that I would like the hon. Carlisle and Dumfries, would manage the tachograph Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar to address. First, has when moving from one side of the border to the other. he spoken to Microsoft or other PC manufacturers The new clause makes no sense whatever. I hope that, about their systems and whether they would be able to rather than dividing the Committee on the proposal, cope with this change? Has he considered the implications the hon. Gentleman will see sense. His proposal would for travel? It is possible that I could leave my constituency make it more likely that we would end up with two and be in this place before I had left. I wonder how the different time zones. I urge him to withdraw the new clause. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority would respond to time travel and thinking that I came to this Fiona O’Donnell: I will make my contribution brief place in a Tardis. We have already heard about television as well, although I shall not speak at quite the same and radio schedules. These are serious concerns, and speed as the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar they are the implications of what he is asking for. We (Mr MacNeil). He reminded me of a child who needed might get the 10 o’clock news at 9 o’clock or 11 o’clock, to go to the toilet as he delivered his speech so terribly we might know the results of the national lottery draw quickly. The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South in Scotland before it is made in England. I have seen (Iain Stewart) said that he had risen to speak with a SNP Members holding their heads in their hands as we heavy heart. I am rising with a sore head, and that is not put forward these various possibilities, but if the hon. just about the sleep deprivation that I mentioned earlier. Gentleman is going to push the Committee to vote on It is because I honestly cannot understand what possessed this matter, he has to consider the ramifications. the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar to table this new clause. He cannot bring a proposal before the Let us be clear about this: the SNP is no good in House and then not want us to discuss its possible government in Holyrood, is no good in government in implications. He cannot tell us what any Scottish local authority areas, and in this Chamber it is putting Government, even his own, might choose to do with forward a most ridiculous proposal that I hope the such powers, given that he voted against the sell-off of Committee will oppose. the forests in England while his Government tried to sell off the forests in Scotland. It is essential that we Thomas Docherty: I want to make two observations scrutinise the implications of the new clause. It exposes based on an example taken from either side of the the fact that the SNP is good at minority reports and at Committee. Under this proposal, the Minister from the gesture politics, but not good at government. Scotland Office could be taken in his Government car from his very nice house in Moffat down to Carlisle and Dr Whiteford: I will take entirely personally the hon. then go back in time an hour to catch a train that had Lady’s positive comment about minority reports. I took left Carlisle an hour earlier. part in a debate on the issue of time zones a few months ago, and I was struck by the strength of feeling among Mr MacNeil: I think that the hon. Gentleman, along many Government Members who represent English with other Members, is confusing the instruments we constituencies who would really like to see the time use to measure time—clocks—with time itself. zones in this country change. My worry is that that would plunge my constituents into darkness on winter Thomas Docherty: I think that the hon. Gentleman’s mornings, meaning that they would have to contend not time is up. only with icy roads and low temperatures but with Alternatively, my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries limited amounts of sunlight. A Scottish Government and Galloway (Mr Brown) could leave his house, travel would have no room in any negotiations on that matter, the 12 miles to Carlisle train station, and find that he is should a Government in this place choose to impose a catching a train an hour earlier than he left his house. change to the existing arrangements. As I understand it, That is ludicrous. the whole point of my hon. Friend’s new clause is to strengthen the likelihood of maintaining the existing arrangements, not to undermine them. Mr Weir: I am puzzled by this obsession with train times. Does the hon. Gentleman recall that for many Fiona O’Donnell: I am still struggling to follow this years Switzerland, in the centre of Europe, had a different argument. The SNP is asking for a power that it says it time zone from all the countries round about, and had has no intention of using because the effects would be trains going through on both sides? They did not vanish undesirable. The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an into thin air—they went in one end and came out the Iar seemed to say that, should the time zone change other. There is no problem about measuring time; this is here, he would recommend that the Scottish Government utter nonsense. fell in line with such a decision as he had no intention of having two different time zones. It has already been Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman takes me pointed out that we are far more likely to end up with back to our debate on the railways. It might be helpful two time zones if we devolve this power. It would be to certain Members to know that the railways are the easier for such a decision to be taken simply on the basis reason we have a unified time zone across the United of taking English concerns into account. Kingdom. Up until the Victorian era, which certain 257 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 258

[Thomas Docherty] Scottish Parliament the power to change the clocks would present it with a strong temptation to do it just to Members clearly wish to drag us back to, there were show that it could, and to drive as big a wedge as different time zones in the west country, for example, possible between Scotland and the rest of the United from those in East Anglia. That was a ludicrous way to Kingdom. That is a very real danger. run a transport system, and that is why this is a mad We should consider what sort of time difference the idea from a fairly mad individual. SNP would want. I think that it would probably go for The other logistical issue touches on the point made something like— earlier about Barnsley. In a general election, there could not be any exit polls or opening of ballot boxes until Mr Russell Brown: A century. every area’s voting had closed at 10 o’clock. The people of Scotland would have voted from 7 am until 10 pm, Mr Davidson: Perhaps it would be a century, but I according to their time, but in England it would have think that it would be just under an hour and a quarter. taken place from 6 am until 9 pm, so we would have to In that way, when it was noon by Greenwich mean time, wait another hour before the opening of the ballot it would be about 13.14 in Scotland. Scotland would boxes, which brings us back to the debate about telling constantly be on Bannockburn time. I think that the on the following day. concept of Bannockburn time is what the nationalists That goes to the heart of the fact that this is a are after: “Here’s tae us, wha’s like us. A lot of them are nonsensical argument from a party that is trying to get deid now right enough, but we do actually remember independence. All SNP Members’ arguments about other them.” This proposal is simply about seeking division countries arise from the fact that they cannot win the for its own sake. debate at the ballot box. They are going to be beaten in The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain May harder than certain people were beaten in Barnsley Stewart) was very helpful in reminding us that schedule 5 last month, and this is another of their back-door to the Scotland Act 1998 covers more matters than just efforts that should be rejected out of hand. time. It also covers the calendar. I am sure that the idea of a public holiday on Alex Salmond’s birthday will be The Temporary Chair (Mr Joe Benton): Order. For a recommendation from the SNP. We have had the the record, I do not think that it was the intention of the Julian calendar and a variety of different calendars. A hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas nationalist calendar is the logical consequence. Why Docherty) to declare the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan should an independent country be stuck with the same an Iar (Mr MacNeil) mad. calendar as England? There are logical arguments for that, but the SNP is not the party of logical arguments; it is the party of passion, of Bannockburn and of 9.15 pm “Here’s tae us, let’s be separate.” Mr Davidson: I will start with a question. If the new I think that there is a real difficulty in all of this. I clause is passed and the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan very much hope that the SNP does not chicken out here. an Iar (Mr MacNeil) goes to the other place, will that I hope that it puts the new clause to the vote so that we make him a time Lord? I hope that he presses the matter can see just how ludicrous its proposals are, and the to a vote, because I can think of nothing that characterises extent to which it is treating the Scotland Bill as nothing the SNP more than this proposal for separate time more than a joke. We are trying to improve the governance zones. of Scotland; the SNP is trying to create divisions. The As far as I can see, there are only two ways in which proposal to have separate time zones is absurd. this new clause can operate. If the United Kingdom Parliament decides to change the time, it would give the David Mundell: I am starting to be very concerned Scottish Parliament the opportunity not to do so, in about the extent to which I agree with the hon. Member which case there would be separate time zones. Alternatively, for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson). Indeed, the the Scottish Parliament could decide to change the time hon. Member for the Western Isles has done something on its own and the United Kingdom Parliament does remarkable this evening—he has led me to agree 100% not do so, in which case there would be separate time with the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway zones. I see no logic for giving this power to the Scottish (Mr Brown), which is a very rare occurrence. I could not Parliament, except if one wants separate time zones. It have put it better—the new clause is sheer lunacy, and is ludicrous. Members on both sides of the Chamber have set out The comments of the right hon. Member for Berwick- why. upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) are key in this argument. It is important to reflect on the findings of the The new clause would make it much more likely that Calman commission, which highlighted the importance this Parliament, with an overwhelming majority of English of cross-border institutions and functions of the UK Members, would vote for what suited it and leave the Government that bind the people of Scotland and the Scots to either follow or not. That would undermine the rest of the UK in a “social union”. It stated its view that position of Scottish MPs in representing their constituents’ a consistent British isles time zone was an important interests in this place. The proposal is absolutely and aspect of that. Of course, the SNP wants to destroy that utterly absurd. social union. As has been said in the debate, having two We must also take into account what I consider to be separate time zones in the UK is one way in which it the al-Megrahi argument. Part of the reason for the would seek to do so. release of al-Megrahi was simply to show that the I think it was the hon. Member for Edinburgh North Scottish Parliament could do it. It had a power and and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) who pointed out the wanted to show that it could use it, so it did. Giving the contradiction in the position of the hon. Member for 259 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 260

Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), who has spoken date of Easter will remain the first Sunday after the first passionately against any proposal to change the time, full moon after the equinox, which perhaps brings me but who has now tabled a new clause that makes the neatly to the hon. Member for Glasgow South West change that he says he opposes much more likely. (Mr Davidson). He is not keen on Bannockburn time, From the outset, this Government have said that they but I wondered whether he was working on moon time would not consider adopting single/double summertime, given some of his interventions and suggestions. central European time or any variation on them without I am calling not for the time zone to change, but for the agreement of all nations of the UK. The Prime the power to ameliorate if London makes a change. We Minister has been unequivocal in stating that having in Scotland want to keep the time as it is. The danger is different times operating concurrently in the UK is not that London will foist something on Scotland that we an option. On Second Reading of the Bill introduced by do not want. The new clause is about giving the power my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca to Scotland. Harris), the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Mr Reid: The Minister gave the hon. Gentleman the Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), made clear the assurance that the Government have said that there will Government’s opposition to the Bill. Additionally, as be no change unless all four countries of the UK agree. the hon. Member for the Western Isles will be aware, at the time of the publication of the UK Government’s Mr MacNeil: That is very useful, but we do not know tourism strategy on 4 March, the Under-Secretary of how long the Government will stand. How long will the State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, my hon. Liberals and Tories remain in this embrace? We know Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (John Penrose), that one Government do not bind another, and certainly reiterated the Government’s commitment that no change that one Parliament does not bind another. This to current policy would happen without the approval of Government will probably not even bind themselves for the whole UK. much longer, but who knows? We want to give Scotland Were the new clause to be accepted, Scotland would the power that Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man have. have the power to determine its own time zone. As the The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O’Donnell) hon. Member for Glasgow South West pointed out, has moved from what might once have been called that would give the Scottish Parliament the capacity to rapacious socialism to a great concern for Microsoft—with make a change just for the sake of being different. The not so much concern for the darkness of her constituents. contribution to the debate that I thought was most Could Microsoft cope with the new clause? Yes, I think illustrative was the one from Northern Ireland, from the it could. hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson). He The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway indicated that although the power in question was (Mr Brown) seemed to be happy for the time difference available there, nobody would wish to use it. That to be foisted upon us and for us not to have a say. Many brings us back to the dogma of the SNP in making countries throughout the European continent—there proposals, as I have said before, either because it sees are about 50—including small countries, have such a them as a way of breaking up the UK or simply for the power. They choose to work together, but they feel that sake of having power. it is better to have the club in their bag. They find If Scotland were to have a different time zone from stability in that. There is instability here because Members the rest of the home nations, daily transactions between from the south of England are ganging up and, because Scotland and the rest of the British isles would take on of amnesia of the last 30 or 40 years, changing the time an unwanted added complexity. Importantly, it would zone on us. potentially put Scotland at an economic disadvantage. I have a note here on the hon. Member for Dunfermline It would certainly disadvantage my constituents, and and West Fife (Thomas Docherty)—it says simply that those of the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway I am disappointed in him. It is more likely that we and the Secretary of State for Scotland, which should would have different time zones in Europe if different not be countenanced. countries did not have such a power. People tend to The new clause would be detrimental to the union work together, but we should ensure that everybody has between the people of Scotland and those of the rest of the same thing to take to the table. If we do not give the UK, which is clearly why it was tabled. It runs Scotland this power, and if the time zone changes and contrary to the spirit and effect of the Bill and the views we want to keep it as it is, the guilty will be all around us. of the Calman commission, which put at the heart of its Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. work the retention of the United Kingdom. Anyone who has a commitment to retaining the UK should The Committee divided: Ayes 6, Noes 439. oppose the new clause. Division No. 228] [9.27 pm

Mr MacNeil: The hon. Member for Milton Keynes AYES South (Iain Stewart) pronounced my constituency name Edwards, Jonathan Wishart, Pete well, putting the Minister to shame—I note again that Hosie, Stewart he referred to my constituency by its old name. MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Tellers for the Ayes: The hon. Member for Milton Keynes South and I Robertson, Angus Mr Mike Weir and Dr Eilidh Whiteford agree on many things, and have together worked to fight Williams, Hywel off the forces of darkness who are trying to force central European time on us—they call it Churchill NOES time, but we call it Chamberlain time, because it is Abrahams, Debbie Afriyie, Adam definitely appeasement. He can rest assured that the Adams, Nigel Aldous, Peter 261 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 262

Alexander, Heidi Crabb, Stephen Glindon, Mrs Mary Jones, Mr Kevan Ali, Rushanara Creasy, Stella Goldsmith, Zac Jones, Mr Marcus Amess, Mr David Crockart, Mike Goodman, Helen Kawczynski, Daniel Anderson, Mr David Crouch, Tracey Goodwill, Mr Robert Kelly, Chris Andrew, Stuart Cunningham, Alex Graham, Richard Kendall, Liz Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Cunningham, Mr Jim Grant, Mrs Helen Kirby, Simon Austin, Ian Cunningham, Tony Gray, Mr James Knight, rh Mr Greg Bacon, Mr Richard Dakin, Nic Grayling, rh Chris Kwarteng, Kwasi Bagshawe, Ms Louise Danczuk, Simon Greatrex, Tom Laing, Mrs Eleanor Bailey, Mr Adrian Davey, Mr Edward Green, Damian Lancaster, Mark Bain, Mr William David, Mr Wayne Green, Kate Lavery, Ian Baker, Norman Davidson, Mr Ian Greening, Justine Laws, rh Mr David Baldry, Tony Davies, David T. C. Greenwood, Lilian Lazarowicz, Mark Baldwin, Harriett (Monmouth) Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Leadsom, Andrea Banks, Gordon Davies, Geraint Griffith, Nia Lee, Jessica Barclay, Stephen Davies, Glyn Griffiths, Andrew Lee, Dr Phillip Barker, Gregory Davis, rh Mr David Gummer, Ben Leech, Mr John Baron, Mr John de Bois, Nick Gwynne, Andrew Lefroy, Jeremy Barwell, Gavin De Piero, Gloria Gyimah, Mr Sam Leigh, Mr Edward Bebb, Guto Dinenage, Caroline Hain, rh Mr Peter Leslie, Charlotte Begg, Dame Anne Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Halfon, Robert Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Beith, rh Sir Alan Dobbin, Jim Hamilton, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Bellingham, Mr Henry Docherty, Thomas Hamilton, Fabian Lewis, Mr Ivan Benyon, Richard Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Hammond, rh Mr Philip Lewis, Dr Julian Beresford, Sir Paul Doran, Mr Frank Hammond, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Berger, Luciana Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hancock, Matthew Lidington, rh Mr David Berry, Jake Dorries, Nadine Hands, Greg Lilley, rh Mr Peter Betts, Mr Clive Doyle, Gemma Hanson, rh Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Bingham, Andrew Doyle-Price, Jackie Harper, Mr Mark Lopresti, Jack Binley, Mr Brian Drax, Richard Harris, Rebecca Lord, Jonathan Birtwistle, Gordon Duncan, rh Mr Alan Harris, Mr Tom Loughton, Tim Blackman-Woods, Roberta Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Hart, Simon Luff, Peter Blackwood, Nicola Dunne, Mr Philip Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lumley, Karen Blenkinsop, Tom Efford, Clive Hayes, Mr John Macleod, Mary Blomfield, Paul Ellis, Michael Heald, Mr Oliver Mactaggart, Fiona Blunt, Mr Crispin Ellison, Jane Healey, rh John Main, Mrs Anne Boles, Nick Ellman, Mrs Louise Heath, Mr David Marsden, Mr Gordon Bone, Mr Peter Ellwood, Mr Tobias Heaton-Harris, Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Bottomley, Sir Peter Elphicke, Charlie Hemming, John Maynard, Paul Bradley, Karen Esterson, Bill Henderson, Gordon McCabe, Steve Brady, Mr Graham Eustice, George Hendrick, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Bray, Angie Evans, Chris Hendry, Charles McCartney, Jason Brazier, Mr Julian Evans, Graham Herbert, rh Nick McCartney, Karl Bridgen, Andrew Evans, Jonathan Hermon, Lady McClymont, Gregg Brine, Mr Steve Evennett, Mr David Heyes, David McCrea, Dr William Brokenshire, James Fabricant, Michael Hilling, Julie McDonnell, John Brooke, Annette Fallon, Michael Hinds, Damian McFadden, rh Mr Pat Brown, Mr Russell Farron, Tim Hoban, Mr Mark McGovern, Jim Bruce, Fiona Featherstone, Lynne Hodgson, Mrs Sharon McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Buckland, Mr Robert Field, rh Mr Frank Hollobone, Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Burley, Mr Aidan Field, Mr Mark Holloway, Mr Adam McKechin, Ann Burns, Conor Flello, Robert Hopkins, Kris McKinnell, Catherine Burns, rh Mr Simon Flint, rh Caroline Horwood, Martin McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Burstow, Paul Flynn, Paul Howarth, Mr Gerald McPartland, Stephen Burt, Alistair Foster, rh Mr Don Howell, John McVey, Esther Byles, Dan Fovargue, Yvonne Hughes, rh Simon Meale, Mr Alan Cable, rh Vince Francis, Dr Hywel Huhne, rh Chris Mearns, Ian Campbell, Mr Alan Francois, rh Mr Mark Hunter, Mark Menzies, Mark Carmichael, Neil Freeman, George Hurd, Mr Nick Metcalfe, Stephen Carswell, Mr Douglas Freer, Mike Irranca-Davies, Huw Michael, rh Alun Cash, Mr William Fullbrook, Lorraine Jackson, Mr Stewart Miller, Andrew Caton, Martin Fuller, Richard James, Margot Miller, Maria Chapman, Mrs Jenny Gale, Mr Roger James, Mrs Siân C. Mills, Nigel Chishti, Rehman Gapes, Mike Jamieson, Cathy Milton, Anne Clark, rh Greg Garnier, Mr Edward Jarvis, Dan Moon, Mrs Madeleine Clarke, rh Mr Tom Garnier, Mark Javid, Sajid Mordaunt, Penny Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Gauke, Mr David Jenkin, Mr Bernard Morgan, Nicky Clwyd, rh Ann Gibb, Mr Nick Johnson, Gareth Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Coffey, Dr Thérèse Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Johnson, Joseph Morris, Anne Marie Collins, Damian Gilmore, Sheila Jones, Andrew Morris, David Connarty, Michael Glass, Pat Jones, Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Cox, Mr Geoffrey Glen, John Jones, Graham (Easington) 263 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 264

Morris, James Smith, Miss Chloe Wright, David Zahawi, Nadhim Mosley, Stephen Smith, Henry Wright, Mr Iain Tellers for the Noes: Mowat, David Smith, Julian Wright, Simon James Duddridge and Mulholland, Greg Smith, Owen Young, rh Sir George Norman Lamb Mundell, rh David Smith, Sir Robert Munn, Meg Soubry, Anna Munt, Tessa Soulsby, Sir Peter Question accordingly negatived. Murphy, rh Paul Spellar, rh Mr John Mr Davidson: On a point of order, Mr Evans. Has it Murray, Ian Spencer, Mr Mark been established that all Members were aware of the Murray, Sheryll Stanley, rh Sir John Murrison, Dr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew time at which the vote was held? I understand that two Nash, Pamela Stevenson, John of the nationalists will be here in about an hour and a Neill, Robert Stewart, Bob quarter. Newton, Sarah Stewart, Iain The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel Nokes, Caroline Stewart, Rory Evans): We will now move on to new clause 19. Norman, Jesse Streeter, Mr Gary Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel O’Donnell, Fiona Stuart, Ms Gisela New Clause 19 Offord, Mr Matthew Stuart, Mr Graham Ollerenshaw, Eric Stunell, Andrew REGULATION OF FOOD LABELLING AND CONTENT Onwurah, Chi Sturdy, Julian ‘In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998 (reserved Opperman, Guy Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry matters: specific reservations), at the end of section C8 to add the Paice, rh Mr James Swales, Ian words “but this exception does not permit the Scottish Parish, Neil Swayne, Mr Desmond Parliament to legislate on food content or labelling of foodstuffs Patel, Priti Swinson, Jo that are placed for sale within Scotland”.’.—(Tom Greatrex.) Pawsey, Mark Swire, rh Mr Hugo Brought up, and read the First time. Pearce, Teresa Syms, Mr Robert Penrose, John Tami, Mark Tom Greatrex: I beg to move, That the clause be read Percy, Andrew Teather, Sarah a Second time. Phillips, Stephen Thomas, Mr Gareth I hesitate to introduce an element of gravity to the Phillipson, Bridget Thurso, John proceedings, given some of the entertainment that has Pickles, rh Mr Eric Timpson, Mr Edward featured so far. Over the past few hours, however, there Pincher, Christopher Tomlinson, Justin has been much debate on issues that did not feature in Poulter, Dr Daniel Tredinnick, David the Calman report. This issue was dealt with in the Prisk, Mr Mark Trickett, Jon report, but it does not feature in the Bill. It featured in Pritchard, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew the previous Government’s White Paper and is referred Pugh, John Turner, Karl to in the Command Paper that accompanies the Bill, Raab, Mr Dominic Twigg, Derek Randall, rh Mr John Twigg, Stephen but it is one of the issues that appear to have fallen off Reckless, Mark Uppal, Paul the edge of the Calman process. Redwood, rh Mr John Vaizey, Mr Edward During this Committee stage the Government have Rees-Mogg, Jacob Vara, Mr Shailesh produced explanations, some convincing and others less Reevell, Simon Vaz, rh Keith so, for the fact that they are not implementing some of Reid, Mr Alan Vaz, Valerie Calman’s recommendations. Part of the purpose of the Reynolds, Jonathan Vickers, Martin new clause is to give them an opportunity to explain Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa why they are not implementing one particular Robertson, Hugh Walker, Mr Charles recommendation. I note that the Scottish Parliament Robertson, John Walker, Mr Robin legislative consent memorandum Committee, in one of Rogerson, Dan Walley, Joan its conclusions, suggested that the Government provide Rosindell, Andrew Walter, Mr Robert Rotheram, Steve Ward, Mr David a fuller explanation. As I am sure that its members read Roy, Mr Frank Watkinson, Angela the Command Paper before reaching that conclusion, I Roy, Lindsay Watts, Mr Dave suspect that merely repeating the terms of the Command Ruane, Chris Weatherley, Mike Paper will not serve to provide the explanation sought Rudd, Amber Webb, Steve by the Committee. Ruddock, rh Joan Wharton, James Fiona O’Donnell: Will my hon. Friend press the Minister Rutley, David Wheeler, Heather Sanders, Mr Adrian Whitehead, Dr Alan to tell us what representations the Government have Sandys, Laura Whittaker, Craig received from either the retail or the manufacturing Scott, Mr Lee Wicks, rh Malcolm sector in support of their action? Seabeck, Alison Wiggin, Bill 9.45 pm Selous, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Roger Tom Greatrex: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Sharma, Alok Williams, Stephen her intervention, and I hope to address the point that Sheridan, Jim Williamson, Chris she has raised. Shuker, Gavin Williamson, Gavin Calman looked at this issue in a degree of detail. The Simmonds, Mark Wilson, Phil issue was mentioned in the White Paper of November Simpson, Mr Keith Wilson, Mr Rob 2009, but it does not appear in the Bill. The new clause Skidmore, Chris Wilson, Sammy addresses Calman recommendation 5.11, which states: Skinner, Mr Dennis Winterton, rh Ms Rosie “The Scottish Parliament should not have the power to legislate Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wollaston, Dr Sarah on food content and labelling in so far as that legislation would Smith, Angela Woodcock, John cause a breach of the single market in the UK by placing a burden 265 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 266

[Tom Greatrex] favourably with some of the discussions and superfluous issues that have been raised by the SNP during the on the manufacturing, distribution and supply of foodstuffs to course of the evening. consumers, and Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act should be amended accordingly.” Hon. Members will know that the Calman commission made a recommendation on food content and labelling Calman looked at the exception of trade descriptions which, as the hon. Gentleman has pointed out, is not in relation to food from the general reservation of included in the Bill. I shall set out the Government’s consumer protection issues in the Scotland Act 1998. reasons for deciding not to include it, as was made clear At the same time, the devolved Administration in the in the Command Paper. Although the recommendation Scottish Parliament have responsibility for public health. seems sensible on paper, it presents a wide range of The evidence taken by Calman was largely oral, and it difficulties in practice, and I shall set those out. As he was instructive. The chief executive of the Food Standards has said, the Scottish Parliament’s report on the Scotland Agency made it clear in oral evidence that the potential Bill also sought a fuller explanation for the Government’s for policy divergence was a concern that should be position. The commission made the following eliminated by making a change akin to that proposed in recommendation: this new clause and said that the information should be available throughout the UK. Evidence from representatives “The Scottish Parliament should not have the power to legislate of both the Royal Environmental Health Institute of on food content and labelling in so far as that legislation would cause a breach of the single market in the UK by placing a burden Scotland and the College of Medicine and Veterinary on the manufacturing, distribution and supply of foodstuffs to Medicine echoed that point and said there was a potential consumers, and Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act should be amended issue, although I am sure that the Minister will want to accordingly.” remind us that both of them made it clear that in The commission also recommended that the Scottish practice there has not been a problem yet. This Parliament’s and Scottish Government’s abilities to deal recommendation was welcomed by the Scottish Retail with public health issues should remain, so the Consortium, CBI Scotland and the Food and Drink recommendation does not cover this aspect, and the Federation. It was referenced in the Command Paper Government fully support that. from which I assume the Minister will draw his remarks on this new clause, and it is a recommendation that we Importantly, and rightly, Calman recognised that food seek to insert into the Bill. content and labelling are almost exclusively regulated at European Union level, so any scope for national flexibility The Scottish Retail Consortium made a number of at member state level when implementing this European points about areas in which public health is not a factor, law is extremely narrow. Hon. Members will know that such as that a requirement to label or produce food general and nutritional labelling is currently being recast differently in different parts of the UK places a heavy in a proposed European regulation. The resulting legislation burden on retailers and manufacturers and could breach will be directly applicable across the whole of the United the ethos of the single market. A number of examples Kingdom. A number of other labelling and food standards have been cited—for example, mandatory environmental matters are governed by European directives. labelling with different requirements in Scotland from other parts of the UK—that could place a financial and Even where no specific food-related legislation has administrative burden on the food industry, and many been adopted at European Union level, free movement of the companies affected would be small firms providing principles mean that any food which can be lawfully specialised products who do not wish their markets to sold in any member state must be able to be sold be limited to just one part of the UK. The introduction throughout the United Kingdom, and vice versa. of this measure would not stop the often successful Significantly, single market rules seeking to avoid barriers voluntary schemes that already exist and to which the to trade being erected apply equally to rules applied in Command Paper makes reference. just one part of a member state. Any national measure would need to be notified at member state level, and The Government suggest in the Command Paper clearance would need to be obtained from the European that potential activity by the Scottish Parliament in Commission before adoption. Before seeking such clearance, food labelling must be agreed by the UK Government consideration would always need to be given to the and the European Commission, and therefore the protection potential for any disruptive impact within the United is in place and is robust enough. The Command Paper Kingdom. goes on to suggest that this Calman recommendation is superfluous. There is a clear argument that it is not I emphasise to right hon. and hon. Members that the superfluous, but that what we require in this matter is Scottish Parliament is already in a position where it clarity. That is the content of the representations from cannot legislate to set particular Scottish standards for food manufacturers, food retailers and business food content in cases where that would breach the organisations in Scotland. single European market or supplement existing European This new clause enables the Calman commission regulations. The Scotland Act prohibits the Scottish recommendation, which mysteriously disappeared between Parliament from legislating in a way that is incompatible the November 2009 White Paper and the Bill being with Community law, and Scottish Ministers have no published, to be enacted. It provides clarity, which is power to carry out any executive act which is incompatible what the industry is looking for, and it provides an with that law—to do so would be ultra vires and any opportunity for the Government to deal with an issue such act would have no effect. that the Command Paper seems to wish to dismiss. It is relevant to the Calman commission’s recommendation that member states may restrict the David Mundell: I welcome this opportunity to discuss free movement of goods in exceptional and limited a substantive issue in relation to the Calman commission cases. One example where that might be possible is if report and the subsequent Scotland Bill. It compares the Scottish Parliament were to need to take action for 267 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 268 the purposes of public health. Again, however, Calman The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Nigel did not suggest any restrictions in this area. The Evans): Order. It was not a particularly brilliant joke the Government are aware of only two instances where first time round. Can we now get back to new clause 19? Scottish food legislation imposes different requirements from those that apply in England. First, the sale of raw David Mundell: I apologise, Mr Evans, for getting milk or cream for direct human consumption is banned sucked into matters that diverge from the subject under in Scotland but permitted, subject to certain restrictions, discussion. in England—European legislation specifically allows The Government appreciate the concern behind the that. Secondly, the rules regarding food storage temperature Calman recommendation, and we have fully considered control requirements are much more detailed in England its implications. The hon. Member for East Lothian than in Scotland. Both those differences predate Scotland’s (Fiona O’Donnell), who has shown great stamina ability to make its own legislation and both relate to throughout today’s proceedings by taking part in many food safety, not general food labelling or standards. of the individual debates, asked whether we had consulted That suggests to the Government that there is not a the retail and business sector. I am pleased to tell her substantial problem to be addressed. There is therefore that I have met the Scottish Retail Consortium and no need, in our view, to amend the Scotland Act. discussed this issue in detail. I have also met the director Amending schedule 5 to the Act poses a number of of the CBI in Scotland, who has also previously set out possibly insurmountable problems, at the root of which concerns on this matter. I hope that I have been able to is the fact that the Calman commission’s recommendation persuade both organisations that the legal basis, which I seeks to address a particular effect of legislation—that have set out in detail, is a sound one and is the basis on is, the breach of a single market. The purpose test that which the Government did not include that particular applies to the reserved matters in schedule 5 to the Act recommendation in the Bill. requires both the purpose and the effect of a provision On the need for legislative change, taking together all to be taken into account. It is therefore possible for a the points I have made, the Government do not necessarily provision to have an effect on a reserved matter and yet consider— not relate to it when the purpose test is applied. Simply including a matter in schedule 5 does not guarantee that 10 pm it can never be affected by legislation that is in the competence of the Scottish Parliament. Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 27 January). There is no precedent for enabling the Scottish Parliament The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed to legislate on a matter provided that its legislation only from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That the has certain effects. Even if it were possible to create a clause be read a Second time. new type of reserved matter, there would still be problems. The Committee divided: Ayes 136, Noes 311. Indeed, any such measure would depend on a definition Division No. 229] [10 pm of what is meant by the United Kingdom single market, which is a concept at the heart of Calman’s AYES recommendation. Furthermore, any amendment of the Scotland Act would create a divergence between the Abrahams, Debbie Docherty, Thomas different countries of the United Kingdom as the devolved Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Alexander, Heidi Doran, Mr Frank institutions in Northern Ireland and Wales are not Ali, Rushanara Doyle, Gemma subject to equivalent restrictions. Austin, Ian Efford, Clive To summarise, although Scottish Parliament legislation Bailey, Mr Adrian Ellman, Mrs Louise of the type that Calman’s recommendation is designed Bain, Mr William Field, rh Mr Frank to prevent is theoretically possible, it is highly unlikely. Banks, Gordon Flello, Robert The likelihood of the Scottish Parliament’s legislating Begg, Dame Anne Flint, rh Caroline on food content and labelling in a field where exemptions Berger, Luciana Flynn, Paul can be found from single market legislation and where Betts, Mr Clive Fovargue, Yvonne any applicable European regulations can be simultaneously Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gapes, Mike disapplied is very limited. The likelihood of its doing so Blenkinsop, Tom Gilmore, Sheila Blomfield, Paul Glass, Pat for purposes that are not related to legitimate actions in Brown, Mr Russell Glindon, Mrs Mary the field of public health is extremely low. Campbell, Mr Alan Goggins, rh Paul Finally, any national measures on labelling or content Caton, Martin Greatrex, Tom where a member state may be able to act would need to Chapman, Mrs Jenny Green, Kate be notified to the European Commission at member Clarke, rh Mr Tom Greenwood, Lilian state level. Connarty, Michael Griffith, Nia Cooper, Rosie Gwynne, Andrew Mr Davidson: May I seek guidance from the Minister? Creasy, Stella Hain, rh Mr Peter If we have a vote on this matter, will all Unionist Cunningham, Alex Hamilton, Mr David Members be voting at 10 o’clock and the nationalist Cunningham, Mr Jim Hamilton, Fabian Members be voting on the 13.14 principle at quarter Cunningham, Tony Hanson, rh Mr David past 11? Dakin, Nic Harris, Mr Tom Danczuk, Simon Healey, rh John David Mundell: That is a very good point. One thing David, Mr Wayne Hendrick, Mark that always interests me about those who promote the Davidson, Mr Ian Heyes, David time change is that they rarely seek to refer to it as Davies, Geraint Hilling, Julie central European time and the imposition of time from De Piero, Gloria Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Europe on the rest of the— Dobbin, Jim Hood, Mr Jim 269 Scotland Bill15 MARCH 2011 Scotland Bill 270

Irranca-Davies, Huw Robertson, John Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John James, Mrs Siân C. Rotheram, Steve Davey, Mr Edward Henderson, Gordon Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Mr Frank Davies, David T. C. Hendry, Charles Jarvis, Dan Roy, Lindsay (Monmouth) Herbert, rh Nick Jones, Graham Ruane, Chris Davies, Glyn Hermon, Lady Jones, Mr Kevan Ruddock, rh Joan Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, Damian Kendall, Liz Seabeck, Alison de Bois, Nick Hoban, Mr Mark Lavery, Ian Sheridan, Jim Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Lazarowicz, Mark Shuker, Gavin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hopkins, Kris Lewis, Mr Ivan Skinner, Mr Dennis Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Horwood, Martin Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Mr Andrew Dorries, Nadine Hosie, Stewart Doyle-Price, Jackie Howarth, Mr Gerald Mann, John Smith, Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Drax, Richard Howell, John Smith, Owen McCabe, Steve Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hughes, rh Simon Soulsby, Sir Peter McCarthy, Kerry Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Huhne, rh Chris Spellar, rh Mr John McDonnell, John Dunne, Mr Philip Hunter, Mark Stuart, Ms Gisela McFadden, rh Mr Pat Durkan, Mark Hurd, Mr Nick McGovern, Jim Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Edwards, Jonathan Jackson, Mr Stewart McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Tami, Mark Ellis, Michael James, Margot McKechin, Ann Thomas, Mr Gareth Ellison, Jane Javid, Sajid McKinnell, Catherine Trickett, Jon Ellwood, Mr Tobias Jenkin, Mr Bernard Meale, Mr Alan Turner, Karl Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Mearns, Ian Twigg, Derek Esterson, Bill Johnson, Joseph Michael, rh Alun Twigg, Stephen Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Miller, Andrew Vaz, rh Keith Evans, Graham Jones, Mr David Moon, Mrs Madeleine Walley, Joan Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Watts, Mr Dave Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Morris, Grahame M. Whitehead, Dr Alan Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris (Easington) Wicks, rh Malcolm Fallon, Michael Kirby, Simon Munn, Meg Williamson, Chris Farron, Tim Knight, rh Mr Greg Murphy, rh Paul Wilson, Phil Featherstone, Lynne Kwarteng, Kwasi Murray, Ian Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Field, Mr Mark Laing, Mrs Eleanor Foster, rh Mr Don Lancaster, Mark Nash, Pamela Woodcock, John O’Donnell, Fiona Francois, rh Mr Mark Leadsom, Andrea Wright, David Onwurah, Chi Freeman, George Lee, Jessica Wright, Mr Iain Pearce, Teresa Freer, Mike Lee, Dr Phillip Perkins, Toby Tellers for the Ayes: Fullbrook, Lorraine Leech, Mr John Phillipson, Bridget Mr David Anderson and Fuller, Richard Lefroy, Jeremy Reynolds, Jonathan Gregg McClymont Gale, Mr Roger Leigh, Mr Edward Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte NOES Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Adams, Nigel Bradley, Karen George, Andrew Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Afriyie, Adam Brady, Mr Graham Gibb, Mr Nick Lidington, rh Mr David Aldous, Peter Bray, Angie Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Amess, Mr David Brazier, Mr Julian Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen Andrew, Stuart Bridgen, Andrew Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Brine, Mr Steve Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Bacon, Mr Richard Brokenshire, James Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Bagshawe, Ms Louise Brooke, Annette Grant, Mrs Helen Luff, Peter Baker, Norman Bruce, Fiona Gray, Mr James Lumley, Karen Baker, Steve Buckland, Mr Robert Grayling, rh Chris Macleod, Mary Baldry, Tony Burley, Mr Aidan Green, Damian MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Baldwin, Harriett Burns, Conor Greening, Justine Main, Mrs Anne Barclay, Stephen Burns, rh Mr Simon Grieve, rh Mr Dominic May, rh Mrs Theresa Barker, Gregory Burstow, Paul Griffiths, Andrew Maynard, Paul Baron, Mr John Burt, Alistair Gummer, Ben McCartney, Jason Barwell, Gavin Burt, Lorely Gyimah, Mr Sam McCartney, Karl Bebb, Guto Byles, Dan Halfon, Robert McCrea, Dr William Beith, rh Sir Alan Cable, rh Vince Hames, Duncan McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Bellingham, Mr Henry Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hammond, rh Mr Philip McIntosh, Miss Anne Benyon, Richard Carmichael, Neil Hammond, Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Beresford, Sir Paul Carswell, Mr Douglas Hancock, Matthew McPartland, Stephen Berry, Jake Cash, Mr William Hands, Greg McVey, Esther Bingham, Andrew Chishti, Rehman Harper, Mr Mark Menzies, Mark Binley, Mr Brian Clark, rh Greg Harris, Rebecca Metcalfe, Stephen Birtwistle, Gordon Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hart, Simon Miller, Maria Blackwood, Nicola Coffey, Dr Thérèse Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mills, Nigel Blunt, Mr Crispin Collins, Damian Hayes, Mr John Milton, Anne Boles, Nick Cox, Mr Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Mordaunt, Penny Bone, Mr Peter Crabb, Stephen Heath, Mr David Morgan, Nicky Bottomley, Sir Peter Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, Anne Marie 271 Scotland Bill 15 MARCH 2011 272

Morris, David Soubry, Anna Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Morris, James Spencer, Mr Mark Order No. 118(6)), Mosley, Stephen Stanley, rh Sir John Mowat, David Stephenson, Andrew Mulholland, Greg Stevenson, John ROAD TRAFFIC Mundell, rh David Stewart, Bob That the draft Road Vehicles (Powers to Stop) Regulations Munt, Tessa Stewart, Iain 2011, which were laid before this House on 1 February, be Murray, Sheryll Stewart, Rory approved. Murrison, Dr Andrew Streeter, Mr Gary Neill, Robert Stride, Mel PENSIONS Newton, Sarah Stuart, Mr Graham That the draft Financial Assistance Scheme (Revaluation and Nokes, Caroline Stunell, Andrew Indexation Amendments) Regulations 2011, which were laid before Norman, Jesse Sturdy, Julian this House on 31 January, be approved. Nuttall, Mr David Swales, Ian That the draft Occupational Pension Schemes (Levy Ceiling) Offord, Mr Matthew Swayne, Mr Desmond Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 3 February, be Ollerenshaw, Eric Swinson, Jo approved. Opperman, Guy Swire, rh Mr Hugo Paice, rh Mr James Syms, Mr Robert That the draft Pension Protection Fund (Pension Compensation Parish, Neil Thurso, John Cap) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 3 February, Patel, Priti Timpson, Mr Edward be approved. Pawsey, Mark Tomlinson, Justin Penrose, John Tredinnick, David LOCAL GOVERNMENT Percy, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew That the draft Greater Manchester Combined Authority Phillips, Stephen Uppal, Paul Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 7 February, be Pickles, rh Mr Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward approved.—(Angela Watkinson.) Pincher, Christopher Vara, Mr Shailesh Question agreed to. Poulter, Dr Daniel Vickers, Martin Prisk, Mr Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Pritchard, Mark Walker, Mr Charles Raab, Mr Dominic Walker, Mr Robin EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Randall, rh Mr John Walter, Mr Robert Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Reckless, Mark Ward, Mr David Order No. 119(11)), Redwood, rh Mr John Watkinson, Angela Rees-Mogg, Jacob Weatherley, Mike CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS Reevell, Simon Webb, Steve Reid, Mr Alan Weir, Mr Mike That this House takes note of European Union Document Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wharton, James No. 15319/10, Commission Communication on Strategy for the Robertson, Angus Wheeler, Heather effective implementation of the Charter of Fundamental Rights Robertson, Hugh Whiteford, Dr Eilidh by the European Union; supports the Government in welcoming the Commission’s work to ensure that EU legislation is compatible Rogerson, Dan Whittaker, Craig with fundamental rights; and notes the Government’s support for Rosindell, Andrew Wiggin, Bill the principle behind Protocol No. 30 on the Application of the Rudd, Amber Williams, Hywel Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union to Rutley, David Williams, Roger Poland and the United Kingdom, that the Charter does not give Sanders, Mr Adrian Williams, Stephen national or European courts any additional grounds on which to Sandys, Laura Williamson, Gavin find that the laws of the United Kingdom are incompatible with Scott, Mr Lee Wilson, Mr Rob the law of the European Union.—(Angela Watkinson.) Selous, Andrew Wilson, Sammy Question agreed to. Shapps, rh Grant Wishart, Pete Sharma, Alok Wollaston, Dr Sarah Simmonds, Mark Wright, Simon Simpson, Mr Keith BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE Young, rh Sir George Skidmore, Chris Ordered, Zahawi, Nadhim Smith, Miss Chloe That, at the sitting on Monday 21 March, the Speaker shall put Smith, Henry Tellers for the Noes: the Questions necessary to dispose of the proceedings on the Smith, Julian James Duddridge and Motion in the name of Sir George Young relating to Members’ Smith, Sir Robert Norman Lamb Salaries not later than one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the Motion; such Questions shall include the Question accordingly negatived. Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; proceedings may continue after the moment The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. of interruption; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) Bill, as amended, reported (Standing Order No. 83D(6)). shall not apply.—(Sir George Young.) Bill to be considered tomorrow. DETENTION OF TERRORIST SUSPECTS Business without Debate (TEMPORARY EXTENSION) BILLS JOINT COMMITTEE Resolved, DELEGATED LEGISLATION That this House concurs with the Lords Message of 8 March, that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider the draft Detention of Terrorist Suspects Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With the leave (Temporary Extension) Bills presented to both Houses on 11 February of the House, we shall take motions 3 to 7 together. (Cm 8018). 273 Business without Debate 15 MARCH 2011 274

Ordered, Operation Ore (Staffordshire) That a Select Committee of eleven Members be appointed to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider the draft Detention of Terrorist Suspects (Temporary Extension) House do not adjourn.—(Angela Watkinson.) Bills (Cm 8018). That the Committee should report on the draft Bills by 9 June 10.15 pm 2011. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): May I That the Committee shall have power— begin my thanking Mr Speaker for granting this debate? (i) to send for persons, papers and records; Those watching and listening will no doubt wonder why (ii) to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; I want to raise something that happened such a long (iii) to report from time to time; time ago. The simple answer is that my constituents (iv) to appoint specialist advisers; and have had to wait such a long time for an apology, and indeed are still awaiting an apology from Staffordshire (v) to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom. police. I hope that following the debate the current chief That Tony Baldry, Sir Menzies Campbell, Paul Goggins, Mr Greg constable, who is an honourable man, will move to Knight, Alun Michael and Mr Robert Syms be members of the Committee.—(Mr David Heath.) ensure that that wrong is corrected without further delay. I want to say something about Operation Ore in PETITION general. All aspects of child pornography are horrific, and I pay tribute to all agencies that act to stamp out Education Maintenance Allowance that appalling crime. The victims of those crimes need so much more than just sympathy. However, Operation 10.14 pm Ore was not handled well: thousands of people were Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): A few falsely accused, leading to 100,000 children being wrongly weeks ago, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester removed from their homes, people’s reputations wrongly East (Keith Vaz), supported by my hon. Friend the being destroyed and, tragically, a number of people Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) and me, launched committing suicide. It is with that in mind that I turn a city-wide petition against the Government’s proposals to the circumstances of a constituent who, quite to abolish the education maintenance allowance. Last understandably, wishes to remain anonymous. Staffordshire week my right hon. Friend presented a petition presented police are fully aware of the case and know to whom I by those who study at Gateway college in his constituency. refer. Tonight I present a petition signed by those associated I wish to take the opportunity presented by the with Regent college and Wyggeston and Queen Elizabeth debate to raise the case of that constituent, who in I college in my constituency. December 2002 was arrested by Staffordshire police as Signed by 327 people, the petition states: part of Operation Ore, the British part of the global operation against internet child pornography. When I The Petition of residents of Leicester and the surrounding conclude my remarks, I will seek a number of reassurances area, from the Minister, whom I am grateful to see here this Declares that the Petitioners oppose the abolition of the Education evening to respond to the debate. Maintenance Allowance; notes that a substantial number of young people are in receipt of the Education Maintenance Allowance Almost four years before the circumstances of December in Leicester; and further notes that education can provide a better 2002, in January 1999, my constituent reported that his future for young people. Barclaycard had been stolen. He reported it to a police The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons station in Stoke-on-Trent, which issued him with a urges the Government not to abolish the Education Maintenance crime number, and to Barclaycard, from which he received Allowance. a refund of £179.76 for some unlawful transactions And the Petitioners remain, etc. made in the period between the theft of the card and his [P000901] reporting it at the police station. However, on 12 December 2002, eight officers arrived at my constituent’s home early in the morning amid a high police presence. Vans were parked for most of the day outside his home, which he shared with his parents, understandably arousing a great deal of interest in the neighbourhood. During the day a considerable amount of property, including computer equipment, was removed from the home. He was arrested on the grounds that the Barclaycard registered to him had been used in 1999 to access a website containing child pornography. I reiterate that it was in January 1999 that he had reported the theft to the police. My constituent suffers from ulserative colitis, for which he had been taking prescribed medicine, which he informed the police doctor about early in his detention. His medication was brought to the police station promptly but was withheld from him until he was released at 7 o’clock that evening. As a result of the stress of his arrest and the withholding of his medication, his medical 275 Operation Ore (Staffordshire)15 MARCH 2011 Operation Ore (Staffordshire) 276 condition worsened, necessitating a medical referral to have the inclination to withdraw his complaint. Staffordshire a consultant in order to rebalance the medication. It is police appear to have no record of the original complaint, only in recent years that his health has improved following just the withdrawal of it, and in addition there are the stress of that incident. factual errors on the withdrawal form. In an effort to On 13 December 2002, the following day, my constituent try to resolve that particular aspect of the case, I sought was able to provide Staffordshire police with evidence to view the original withdrawal form, and was told in that he had, indeed, reported the theft of his credit card no uncertain terms by the solicitors for Staffordshire in January 1999, and of the resulting refund from police, “Who are you to be even considering reviewing Barclaycard. As a result, no charges have ever been such a document?” I am sure that the Minister will brought against him, and on 18 December 2002 all the agree that so far the whole issue is of great concern. property that had been seized on 12 December was In February 2004, my constituents’ solicitors informed returned. The police had checked the credit card database, Staffordshire police of their intention to seek damages but incredibly only back to 2002; the incident to which for wrongful arrest and imprisonment, and that was it related took place in 1999. acknowledged by Staffordshire police on 24 February After much deliberation, during which the family 2004 and by the force’s insurers on 5 March 2004. In tried to rebuild their standing in the community and to June 2004, my constituent was asked to provide some move on from the awful experience, my constituent and proof of his inability to work, and he was able to his parents decided in February 2003 to make formal provide some evidence. complaints to Staffordshire police for wrongful arrest. On 25 October 2004, however, Staffordshire police’s These were acknowledged in writing on 25 February legal adviser, a Mr Griffiths, wrote to my constituents 2003 by the then deputy chief constable, David Swift, rejecting their claim, stating that in his opinion the who informed both parties that their complaints had arrest of my constituent had been lawful for the following been passed to the force’s professional standards unit, reasons. First, my constituent did not inform the arresting where it would be handled by a Mr Hulse. On 6 March officer of the 1999 theft of his credit card until part way 2003, DCC Swift wrote again to my constituent’s parents, through his first interview, not at the time of his arrest. asking them to contact an Inspector Humphries within Given the circumstances, it took some time for my 14 days, which they did. constituent to be made aware of what he had been arrested for and all the implications of it. Secondly, the My constituent and his parents met the inspector in use of a credit card raised a prima facie case of suspicion, March 2003 and were told that, as my constituent had and the report of the theft of the card was not in itself been the person arrested, any complaint should come proof of theft. Thirdly, officers had reasonable cause to from him. Therefore, the parents withdrew their complaint. suspect that my constituent was, according to Mr Griffiths’s My constituent was also persuaded not to pursue a letter, formal complaint—he was told that this would be interpreted as a personal attack on the police officers—but “merely trying to pass the blame onto others.” to go down the route of an informal complaint. Those claims were rebutted by my constituents’ solicitors on 1 November 2004, who noted in particular that the Later that month, my constituent’s parents engaged a use of a credit card online leaves a unique IP address, firm of local solicitors, and, during a meeting with which would allow investigating agencies to ascertain Mr Hulse, he informed my constituent that, owing to a the exact computer that had been used to access the change in the police computer system, only records illegal websites and whether my constituent had access dating back to 2002 had been checked prior to his to it. Indeed, that point has never been addressed by arrest, therefore the 1999 report of the theft of his Staffordshire police. Mr Griffiths acknowledged that credit card had not shown up. My constituents were letter on 6 December 2004, and went on to concede that advised by their solicitor that it would thus be difficult my constituent had made the arresting officers aware of to proceed further with any complaint, as negligence the theft of his credit card at the time of the arrest, but would need to be proved, and that that would be an that, apparently, that would make no difference. expensive undertaking for which legal aid would not be available. Unfortunately, in January 2005, my constituents’solicitors advised that they could see no reasonable chance of In June 2003, my constituent’s parents wrote to the progressing the complaint further, and closed their file. Metropolitan police, the lead force on Operation Ore, In August 2005, my constituent made another formal but their letter was merely forwarded to Staffordshire complaint, this time on the ground of failure to provide police, who informed them in July 2003 that the matter prescribed medication. On 29 September 2005, Mr Griffiths was now being dealt with by a detective inspector from wrote to my constituent, advising him that if he wanted the local CID. to pursue the complaints, he should do so through legal In September 2003, my constituents engaged new representatives. In October 2005, my constituent complained solicitors, and a formal complaint for wrongful arrest further, to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, was made on 1 October 2003, which Staffordshire police which informed my constituent by letter on 18 October once again referred to the PSU in a letter dated 10 October. that the IPCC had arranged for my constituent to be On 17 October, my constituent received a further letter contacted by Staffordshire police to discuss the issue. informing him that Inspector Humphries was again According to my constituent, however, no such contact handling their complaint. was ever made. There exists a withdrawal of complaint form, dated The years were now rolling on, and in December 24 October 2003, which apparently has been signed by 2005, my constituent received a letter from the then my constituent. My constituent remains adamant to Deputy Chief Constable Lee of Staffordshire police this day, however, that at no time did he agree to upholding the initial rejection of my constituent’s complaint, withdraw his complaint, sign any such document or at which time my constituent asked the IPCC to undertake 277 Operation Ore (Staffordshire)15 MARCH 2011 Operation Ore (Staffordshire) 278

[Robert Flello] 10.29 pm an investigation into why no pre-2002 records search The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the had taken place, as such a search would have shown Home Department (James Brokenshire): Let me start by that the credit card had been reported stolen in January congratulating the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent 1999. Unfortunately, the IPCC wrote back to say that, South (Robert Flello) on securing this debate and on as the original complaint predated the IPCC’s formation bringing this important matter to the attention of the and fell under the auspices of the Police Complaints House. I certainly understand his desire to highlight the Authority, it was unable, under law, to accept the complaint. specific case of his constituent, and he has clearly followed up with great care the various issues that have In August 2006, my hon. Friend the Member for been raised with him. I hope he will recognise that it is Gedling (Vernon Coaker), in his then role as Under- difficult for me to respond specifically on an individual Secretary of State at the Home Office, advised me that case of this nature. I also hope, however, that he will the Home Office could not become involved in the appreciate that this provides me with an opportunity to specifics of the case as it was an operational matter for comment on Operation Ore and on a number of steps Staffordshire police, and that he had forwarded my that the Government are taking to tackle the issue of representations to Staffordshire police. He also suggested illegal images on line and the wider work of child that any complaints about the IPCC be initially taken protection generally. I note the five points that he has up with the IPCC caseworker. My constituent made a highlighted, and I will seek to address some of them in further complaint to the IPCC about its refusal to take the course of my comments. up the complaint, but that was subsequently rejected. During 2007, again following further representations It might be helpful if I give the House a brief overview from me, Staffordshire police refused to reconsider my of Operation Ore. As the hon. Gentleman has explained, constituent’s early complaints. I was also, somewhat this was, at the time, an investigation into the activities disturbingly, advised by the IPCC that it had no record of individuals on a scale that we had not seen before. In of my constituent’s case file. September 1999, the United States Postal Inspection Service searched the premises of an American-based Having spent some time setting out the background online trading company known as Landslide Inc, which to the case and the reasons behind the continuing anger was providing access for payment to adult pornography and unhappiness of my constituent and his parents at and child abuse images. Material was seized which the system of making a complaint against the police, I included a database containing the list of subscribers. would like to ask the Minister to give me some reassurance on five specific points. First, will he use his good offices In September 2001, Landslide Inc transaction to persuade Staffordshire police to apologise, at long information was received by the National Crime Squad, last, to my constituent and his parents, if for no other a precursor agency of CEOP—the Child Exploitation reason than for withholding the prescribed medication, and Online Protection Centre. The information was for which I can see no justification? originally received within the National Criminal Intelligence Service, but following an initial assessment it was passed Secondly, will the Minister assure me that, in future, to the National Crime Squad. The NCS took responsibility all records—not just those from 2002 onwards—will be for national co-ordination in dealing with the dissemination checked prior to any arrest, so that no other innocent of the subscriber data. This included a co-ordinated person and their family has to suffer the trauma and approach to the categorisation and prioritisation of indignity experienced by my constituent and his parents? individual suspects based on their potential access to Thirdly, will the Minister clarify whether he believes it children. The transaction data consisted of information correct that any complaint made before the creation of submitted by a customer in purchasing access to the the IPCC cannot be pursued by it, and will he tell me websites, which included their name, address, credit what, if any, recourse is open to any other complainants card number, e-mail address and a customer-selected in a similar situation? password. In April 2004, following the first incitement Fourthly, is the Minister happy that, when a complaint case, further forensic work revealed the capture of the is made either against an officer or, as in this instance, subscriber IP address and the credit card verification against a police force in general, it is handled in a way logs. that is liable to produce an outcome that leaves the In the majority of Operation Ore cases, police forces complainant feeling less than reassured? Fifthly, will he have used the data from Landslide Inc to commence send the message today to all police forces that, when a investigations into the suspected possession of indecent mistake is found to have been made, a swift apology images of a child. There is a common misconception must be forthcoming? This is a dreadful case of sloppy about these cases being linked under an overall programme practice leading to an injustice, yet, even now, all my of investigation. I want to make it clear that the decision constituent really wants is an apology. whether to proceed in each individual case was a matter Child pornography is an appalling crime, and those for the police force concerned, and that once the individual who are guilty rightly face public shame as well as the packages were released to the forces, it was the responsibility full force of the law. However, those who have committed of individual chief constables to decide whether to no crime and who are wrongly accused also face public undertake investigations. Following investigation, forces anger and horror. The police should therefore behave considered whether offences had been committed and with the greatest level of professionalism. In this case, warranted judicial proceedings. Each case was independently that professionalism was sadly lacking. I hope that the scrutinised by the local Crown Prosecution Service, and Minister will be able to respond to my five points, and in those cases where suspects elected for trial, the evidence that, despite what the force’s solicitors have said, was obviously further tested by the courts. To the best Staffordshire police will make a full apology to my of our knowledge, no cases were brought on the basis of constituent and seek to right this wrong. credit card data alone. 279 Operation Ore (Staffordshire)15 MARCH 2011 Operation Ore (Staffordshire) 280

We understand that about 2,700 individuals have been that we all have a responsibility to help to make the convicted of these offences. This figure includes more internet a safer place for the public. I support the than 700 admitting their guilt in receiving a formal self-regulatory model developed in the UK by the internet caution. In almost 2,300 cases, child abuse images were industry and law enforcement to provide a structure for discovered. In 22% of all dissemination cases following the reporting of such images, the analysis of them, and an investigation, the police service took no further action to track down those responsible or prevent access action. Importantly, more than 154 children were to them. safeguarded. I recognise the support for the Internet Watch Foundation As I have already indicated, it would not be appropriate and the action taken by responsible internet service for me to discuss individual cases in this debate, but I providers to prevent inadvertent access by the public to want to be clear that it is my understanding that the such images. That is an example of how industry and investigation process followed by the police in these others can make a significant contribution to tackling cases was the same as for any other type of crime, and this problem. I valued the opportunity this afternoon to that following a thorough investigation, decisions were attend the launch of the IWF’s three-year strategy and made on whether to proceed with a prosecution, or the publication of its annual report on its work to take other action, taking all relevant factors into account. down such images, working closely with law enforcement I appreciate the points made by the hon. Gentleman and other agencies. The Government strongly support and recognise the sensitivities for people who are arrested this model for tackling illegal images. We believe that it or accused of such crimes. An additional factor that the works and we would like to see other countries take police have to consider in such cases is whether there is action to achieve the same ends. a direct and continuing threat to children from those The work of the IWF and the industry, allied with who have been accused of a crime. It is a matter for the that of the police and CEOP, has helped virtually to investigating officers, in conjunction with local children’s eradicate the content in question from servers hosted in services, what action they take having considered that the UK, although there is clearly still work to be done. question. The hon. Gentleman has highlighted his desire We will continue to support the work of CEOP, which and his constituent’s desire to receive an apology from does so much to help to protect children. It has been a Staffordshire police. That is a matter for Staffordshire great success, and it has helped to safeguard a significant police. The hon. Gentleman has put on the record the number of children and apprehend people who would chronology of the events, the issues he has and his seek to harm them. constituent’s concerns. I am sure that those points will I wish to reassure the House of two things. The first is be heard by Staffordshire police as a consequence of the seriousness with which the Government take the this debate. protection of children. In that context, we will continue The police and CEOP have standard guidelines for to support the work of the police and CEOP to protect dealing with these investigations, which include children from the threats posed to them. Like the hon. recommendations for handling interviews and arrests. Gentleman, I thank them and congratulate them on Although it is right that we consider the effect of the their work to ensure that children are safer. Secondly, accusation on the person who is accused, that needs to we will ensure that should an operation on the scale of be balanced with the risk posed to children. A member Operation Ore be required again, the UK has in place a of the public who is dissatisfied with the behaviour of robust structure to deal with it. We will ensure that individual officers or a force may complain to the cases are handled in accordance with the law. relevant police force or to the Independent Police I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising this important Complaints Commission, to which the hon. Gentleman issue in general, and equally for raising the case of his referred. The IPCC has a dual purpose to act as an individual constituent. He has made his points very overall guardian to the police complaints system, ensuring clearly, and he has certainly followed the case through its effectiveness and efficiency, and also to take a role in for his constituent. I am sure that hon. Members who individual cases. It is entirely independent of the police are in the House this evening, and people outside, will and the Government. The hon. Gentleman raised a have heard the points he has raised tonight and will take specific point about the IPCC’s ability to take on individual notice of them. cases that predate its creation. I hope that it is satisfactory to him if I respond later with further details on that issue. Question put and agreed to. The broader issue of illegal images is sadly one that persists. I would like to take this opportunity to set out 10.40 pm the approach that we will take to that problem. I believe House adjourned.

1WH 15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 2WH

extremists and their worldview. Let us engage groups that share Westminster Hall our aspirations.” I agree very firmly with what the Primesqueeze-col4 Minister said. Tuesday 15 March 2011 Quilliam is a secular think-tank that was set up in 2008 by two former Islamist extremists, Ed Husain and [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] Maajid Nawaz. Since then, it has become a unique centre of knowledge of such extremism. It is not an Quilliam Foundation exaggeration to say that its research and networking have had at least as great an influence on the debate Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting about Islamist extremism and terrorism as any other be now adjourned.—(James Duddridge.) organisation in the UK. It has gained an international reputation for its work. It is interesting that, this very 9.30 am morning, an important conference on counter-terrorism Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): will be addressed by the Minister for Security, Baroness You will realise from my dulcet tones, Mr Dobbin, that Neville-Jones. Further down the agenda, a senior I am struggling with my voice this morning, but I hope spokesperson from Quilliam will speak about the same at least to get to the end of my introductory remarks. It issues and agenda as a senior Government Minister. is good to see you in the Chair. This morning’s debate takes us to the heart of an important issue in which I Controversy is, predictably enough, never far away know you are interested, as are many hon. Members on from such an organisation. It has made enemies as well both sides of the House. I am pleased that so many as friends. Those associated with Quilliam face considerable from both sides are already present, and am particularly threats and abuse as a result of the stance that they take. pleased to be joined by my right hon. Friend the Member Quilliam was initially funded by money from private for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). She speaks on donors in the Gulf. However, that money was withdrawn these issues with considerable experience, as a former when Quilliam’s founders publicly criticised Yusuf Minister with responsibility for police and counter-terrorism al-Qaradawi and the use of suicide bombings against Israeli and a former Secretary of State for Communities and civilians. After that, Quilliam began to receive money Local Government. She learned a great deal in both those from the Home Office and the Foreign Office under the roles and I look forward to hearing her comments later. Prevent programme. Quilliam always intended to become This debate takes us to the heart of a complex and financially self-sufficient and was close to achieving crucial issue, namely, the need to take on the extremist private funding on two occasions, only to lose it at the last ideology that underpins the activities of those who are minute—first, as a result of the credit crunch, and secondly, opposed to our society and seek to destroy it. I want to because of the 2009 uprisings in the middle east. keep my remarks and the debate simple, because what is The money given to Quilliam by the Government has at stake right now is the future of an organisation that is had an immediate and visible impact. Quilliam is one of playing a vital role within that debate. My straightforward the few Muslim-led organisations willing to confront request, which I seek to put as constructively as I can to extremism directly, to name and shame extremist the Minister, is that transitional funding of £150,000 be organisations, and to remain unequivocal in its defence made available to the Quilliam organisation, which will of British values, including free speech, freedom of fold in the next few days unless interim support is made religion, gay rights and respect for others. available. Although I realise that a debate in Parliament Quilliam has been the most vocal Muslim-led is not the time for line-by-line negotiation of every organisation to condemn, without equivocation, suicide aspect of an organisation’s budget, I hope that, by the bombings and acts of terrorism, and to challenge extremist debate’s conclusion, the Minister will have given us groups in the United Kingdom. Its bold approach has cause to hope that a resolution will be found to the paved the way for other Muslim groups throughout the problem and a way forward established. United Kingdom to follow suit. By acting as a leader Five weeks ago, the Prime Minister made an important within Britain’s Muslim communities, Quilliam has speech at the Munich security conference. He argued encouraged other Muslim groups to initiate real debates that we need to differentiate between Islam—the world about issues such as terrorism, religious belief and religion that teaches and practises a belief in peace and secularism. a loving God—and Islamist extremism, a political ideology A few days ago, for example, Quilliam issued a statement which is opposed to western democracy and is linked to publicly defending Usama Hasan—a progressive London and underpins terrorist violence. He explained that imam who received death threats for stating his belief in radicalisation is a process that turns non-violent Islamists evolution—and criticising the total silence of the Muslim into people who are prepared to kill human beings, community in the face of the threats against him. The including themselves, in pursuit of their perverted ideology. statement encouraged more than a dozen major British The Prime Minister pointed out that vulnerable individuals Muslim organisations to issue their own statements become terrorists not overnight, but as a result of the defending Hasan and his right to free speech. constant pressure placed on them, whether in internet Quilliam’s staff and supporters make regular media chat rooms, in prisons or, indeed, on university campuses. contributions to mainstream UK programmes as well He went on to state that we need to work with Muslim-led as to specialist Islamic TV and radio outlets. Their organisations that are willing to confront that Islamist statements demonstrate clearly that not all Muslims are ideology, provided that, at the same time, they defend extremists. They also challenge Islamist extremists human rights, equality and integration. He said: within their own core constituency. In my experience, “So let us give voice to those followers of Islam in our own no other Muslim-led group in the UK does that more countries—the vast, often unheard majority—who despise the effectively. 3WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 4WH

[Paul Goggins] away from those who would try to radicalise them and turn them into extremists; it must be people within the As the middle east and Pakistan face ever greater wider Muslim community itself who do that work. Our turmoil, I believe that Quilliam can make an important job—whether as Ministers, other politicians who are contribution, both to our understanding of what is interested in the issue or, indeed, non-governmental happening and the forces at work, and to the development organisations—is to empower and encourage people of a narrative that counters the extremists. Quilliam can within the Muslim community to do such work for also help to challenge Islamist extremism here in the themselves. That was the most important lesson I learned. United Kingdom. It has already done much to influence the debate and get the message across to the British Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con): Like me, I am sure public that the vast majority of Muslims are also against that the right hon. Gentleman remembers sparring over extremism. There is particularly important work to do this issue in relation to the Prevent strategy and the in that regard with young Muslims, who may be rights and wrongs thereof. However, the Quilliam disillusioned, concerned about, and fed up with the Foundation is based on not just common sense, but the world around them, and who may be attracted by the historical precedent of using those who were opposed perverted ideology of the extremists. We have to make to spread the message back to our opponents. That is a sure that that is countered, and organisations such as very valuable tool; it is not unique but it is an extraordinary Quilliam are in an ideal position to do that. tool. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman would agree that that must not be allowed to perish. Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): I have known for some time some of the people involved in Quilliam. Paul Goggins: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s My right hon. Friend has mentioned Pakistan, and one intervention. He and I have sparred over many issues, of the things that I have found valuable is a report including this one. I have a great measure of agreement published by Quilliam about a year ago about the with him when we debate such matters. Those who radicalisation going on in Pakistan. The organisation speak with not just knowledge, but experience do so was prepared to go to Pakistan and engage with young with additional credibility and in a particularly powerful people in its universities, and to explain to them the way. We cannot afford to lose the experience that is realities of British Muslim life. Very few other organisations contained within the Quilliam Foundation. I hope that in this country are prepared to do that, and to do it my remarks and arguments—and those that will be without a destructive political agenda that feeds prejudices. made by others later in the debate—will persuade Ministers Quilliam was challenging prejudices, which is in our not to give a blank cheque to the organisation, but to national interest. It is, therefore, vital that we continue provide sufficient funding to enable it to survive the supporting Quilliam. immediate future and provide its own sustainable funding in the long term. I was describing the core of the important work that Paul Goggins: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s Quilliam does by supporting, encouraging and empowering intervention. He is a great authority on the issues and those within the Muslim community to take this work has an association with Quilliam—as he has said, he forward for themselves. Again, I say that I am not knows some of the people involved. He has raised an asking for a blank cheque. Indeed, I support the strong important issue. In fact, Quilliam has been involved in argument that Quilliam should get out of Government establishing a Facebook site called Khudi, which has funding in the longer term because that will add to its 40,000 subscribers in Pakistan. There are young people sense of independence, credibility and power within the listening to the liberal values and arguments being Muslim community. In the long run, that is a sensible made through that Facebook page. Quilliam is taking way forward, but we need an interim solution that will the argument into parts of the world where we would enable the organisation to survive these next few days find it impossible as individual politicians or, indeed, and weeks. Governments to advance arguments that would be listened to with any credibility. I pay tribute to Quilliam for Quilliam has not simply sat there and demanded doing that work and thank my hon. Friend again for his money; it has taken difficult decisions in recent days to intervention. make its sustainability more likely. It has reduced staff numbers from 14 to six and has made eight staff redundant. We will soon learn the conclusions that the coroner Clearly, those are very painful decisions, but Quilliam has reached in the 7/7 inquest. Whatever findings and regarded them as necessary in the circumstances. The recommendations she makes, we cannot escape the fact small team that remains at Quilliam is working flat out that those responsible for the bombs were a part of our on funding bids to charitable trusts and other funding community. We must ensure that there is no room for organisations. It currently has a number of funding bids retreat into denial about extremism. Like my right hon. in but, as hon. Members know, charitable trusts do not Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles, I was a deal with funding bids every day of the week; they have Home Office Minister when the 7/7 bombs went off. In their own cycle and programme for deciding such things. the months that followed, she and I travelled the length Quilliam needs some time to allow those organisations and breadth of the country in a effort to engage with to consider the bids and to respond, I hope, positively. the Muslim community and encourage it to face up to Another important recent development has been the the minority in its midst that had adopted an extremist granting of charitable status to Quilliam in the United ideology and was intent on the destruction of our way States. I hope that that will open up more avenues of of life and the values that underpin it. potential financial support for it in the longer term. I learned a great deal from those many encounters, I would also like to inform the Minister that Quilliam but the most important lesson I learned was that it has actively been looking for smaller more affordable would not be me who could persuade young Muslims offices, which is also an important way of reducing the 5WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 6WH organisation’s overhead costs. Quilliam is not sitting resultant situation—Quilliam being funded largely by there expecting a blank cheque from Government; it two Departments—clearly raises issues about bipartisanship wants independent funding and it is prepared to reduce and credibility. its costs. However, at the moment, it faces a real crisis. Quilliam is not the only organisation that publicly The request is simple enough. In December, Quilliam and vociferously challenges extremism in all its guises, was told that there would be no more core funding in whether anti-Jewish, anti-Islam or anti-western; nor is 2011-12. Three months is just not long enough for an it the only organisation in which former extremists have organisation to move from core funding to project played an active part in educating peoples, Governments funding. We need a more flexible approach. A grant of and policy makers on how to recognise and counter the £150,000 to cover the year ahead should be made. That type of radicalisation that results in extremist behaviours. is a reasonable investment in the kind of project I have The Street project in Brixton was previously funded by been describing. After that, Government funds should Prevent and has also experienced funding cuts. It is a be available only for specific projects that are agreed. non-sectarian group that works from a mosque and I hope that such an approach will find support from does measurable work in combating the kind of all parties this morning. It is certainly supported by radicalisation that can lead to extremism. Similarly, the Lord Carlile who, of course, is regarded by many as the Cordoba Foundation has produced projects with a focus expert in this area of public policy. He has made it clear on preventing radicalism from becoming extremist action. in the media and personally to me that he supports In about a week’s time, an initiative called “Learning to having a transitional grant that would facilitate survival be a Peacemaker” will be held in this place by an and then a path towards sustainable, independent funding. organisation called Initiatives of Change, which is also Quilliam is prepared to confront Islamist extremists. We working in that field. should be prepared to ensure that it remains in business. It is true, however, that Quilliam is distinct and unique in important respects. It is the only organisation that challenges extremist views and activities by effectively 9.46 am straddling both the Muslim perspective and the liberal, Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I secular, mainstream vernacular of modern Britain. It congratulate the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe represents the swathes of British Muslims who are and Sale East (Paul Goggins), who has put forward a Muslim by birth and culture first and foremost, but strong and effective case. He has made a very specific who understand and adhere to the division between proposal that £150,000 should be provided by the Church and state, which is second nature to mainland Government. He made it clear that it should not be a Britain. Quilliam sits within the diverse and, at times, blank cheque and specified that the funding would be conflicting dialogue about Islam that is both acceptable for 12 months starting next month. What he did not do and normal practice among faith-based Muslim groups, was to set out precisely what conditions and objectives but unlike any other organisation of its size and impact, might be attached, perhaps because he cannot conduct Quilliam also sits comfortably within the traditional negotiations on Quilliam’s behalf, or he does not want western liberal dialogue, which separates to a large to conduct negotiations here. He indicated clearly that extent the personal faith of individuals and the secular, at the end of the 12-month period, Quilliam would have cultural interpretation of those personal faiths. to be self-financing, albeit perhaps having secured grants As the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale from Government for specific projects. However, other East set out, Quilliam started life as a think-tank, but conditions might have to be attached if the Government the very nature of its work—outreach in universities, were minded to go down that route. and research and policy advice—is much more akin to The right hon. Gentleman made it clear that today’s that of an effective and proactive non-governmental discussion on the future funding of Quilliam is not just organisation. Quilliam’s vocal stance against terrorism about the funding streams of that UK-based think-tank; that claims to be inspired by Islam has had solid results, it is about the Government’s current and developing which are measurable. Accurately signposting Government policy stance on counter-terrorism—what we fund and to specific individuals with an inclination for extremist why and how we should continue to move forward action is invaluable in our fight against terrorism. As post-Prevent. Is our nation’s security to be based on the right hon. Gentleman said, it remains one of the few ideology and on which groups emphasise or downplay groups—occasionally the only group—that consistently certain aspects of Islam, or on reality and on the challenge and publicly condemn terrorism, from whatever evidence of policies that have worked and continue to source. As it sits within the Muslim dialogue, it has produce results? first-hand access to, and shared understanding of, the As the right hon. Gentleman said, Quilliam’s funding dialogues taking place at grassroots level and online streams are well documented and a loss of substantial that can lead to extremist action. That position is unique funding early in its inception led to its being funded by and invaluable to the Government’s fight against terrorism. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Home However, the criticism levelled at Quilliam, and indirectly Office, which illustrates exactly why there is a need for at the previous Government for funding the group, is Quilliam to continue. It lost funding by being vocal in worth examination and raises important questions that opposing extremism in whatever form and from whatever need to be addressed in relation to any decisions about source. As he said, a funder withdrew support early on funding. The first is about its perceived dominance of in Quilliam’s life as a reaction to the organisation’s the mainstream view. Many individuals and organisations stance against suicide bombings in Israel. Quilliam’s are discouraged by an organisation that purports to be public stance on that issue was not particularly to do the arbiter of what is, or is not, mainstream. That is with Islam, but it was part of its consistent, clear and further complicated by the coming to light of a list vocal opposition to all forms of terrorism. However, the produced by Quilliam that seems to many to suggest 7WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 8WH

[Tom Brake] of voices, which we need as a society, on what are always contentious and very often sensitive matters. that some other Muslim organisations, which consider This debate is an opportunity not just to recognise the themselves mainstream, are breeding grounds for civil work that Quilliam has done, but to explore some of the unrest because of ideological perspectives shared to a complexity of this area and how Government might go greater or lesser extent with radical extremist groups. forward. We are here to highlight the situation in which Quilliam Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): The hon. finds itself. I intend to concentrate on that in my remarks, Gentleman makes a serious point. However, is it not the because we need to press the Government for results as case that when taking part in an ideological battle, all much as we need to have a general debate. In my groups describe themselves as mainstream? Indeed, even experience, as with a number of groups working on this Islamist extremists describe themselves as mainstream, agenda, Quilliam has very often been brave, courageous, because they are trying to say that everyone who disagrees and willing to tread where other people have not perhaps with them is an apostate. There is nothing unusual, been quite so brave. It always wants not just to highlight therefore, about Quilliam at one end of the spectrum the threat that our country faces, but to come up with a calling itself mainstream, while other groups at the practical response about how we can tackle that threat centre of the spectrum call themselves mainstream, and and develop a counter-extremist narrative and agenda groups on the radical Islamist end of the spectrum call to ensure that we build the resilience, particularly of our themselves mainstream. That is not really a valid criticism. young people, to withstand extremist messages. Tom Brake: The hon. Gentleman is very experienced We are at a very important moment in relation to this in these matters. Maybe on that particular point we will issue. We had a significant speech from the Prime have to disagree on whether my comment is appropriate. Minister a couple of weeks ago at the Munich security The funding of a think-tank by the Home Office and conference, which marks something of a turning point. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will inevitably He was very firm that the Government cannot tackle contribute to a perceived lack of plurality of voices these issues alone. Government need help from a wide heard by Government on how best to combat extremism. range of organisations from civil society, the Muslim Lack of funding from other agencies will raise questions community and communities across the spectrum. about how and whether Quilliam can critically engage Government can do certain things, but the power to with Government, and will cast doubts about its credibility tackle an extremist narrative always comes from the as an independent body with the capacity to critique community itself, which has to feel empowered, supported Government plans and policy on tackling radical extremism. and backed up by Government in order to take on that It is true to say, however, that that position conveniently task. The Prime Minister said: forgets the numerous groups who receive funding from “governments cannot do this alone. The extremism we face is a the Government’s Prevent strategy to undertake or continue distortion of Islam”. work to counteract extremist activity. It also overlooks That is absolutely right. Islam is about peace, compassion, the many Muslim groups who are frequently invited to tolerance and inclusion; it is not about violence and put their views to Government, most recently a couple division. The people who peddle messages of hate actually of months ago at a conference I hosted here with harm Islam in a way that almost nothing else can. The Murtaza Shibli, when we invited Muslim organisations Prime Minister continued: to share opinions and advice on how best the Government “these arguments, in part, must be made by those within Islam…let can go forward with the post-Prevent agenda. us give voice to those followers of Islam in our own countries—the No one can doubt the achievements of Quilliam as vast, often unheard majority—who despise the extremists and an NGO. The debate about funding should, therefore, their worldview.” rightly concern itself with levels of funding at a time of If that is our task, and we need others to help us, then it financial austerity, and not about whether we should is very sad that we find ourselves having to press almost forgo that important insight into extremist narratives. for the survival of an organisation such as Quilliam. It Although I support the continued funding of this much- is that serious. Unless practical steps are taken by needed organisation, Quilliam, like other NGOs and Government to ensure that there is some transitional agencies working under the vital remit of social cohesion, funding for that organisation, I have no doubt that it needs to look hard at how best to make effective decisions will simply fold and not be able to conduct its activities. within tighter financial constraints. Quilliam also needs It has already made significant redundancies of a whole to continue to pursue other avenues of funding—as it range of staff. From experience, I know how difficult it is doing—to continue, with credibility, a bipartisan is to create capacity on these very difficult issues. It relationship with Government and other Muslim groups. takes experience, knowledge and—I come back to that word—courage to stand up and be counted, and very 9.55 am often to make enemies, and face personal threats and intimidation. If we lose that organisation, we will lose Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): It is a great that enormously valuable capacity that may well be able pleasure to contribute to the debate. I congratulate my to be built up in the future. If something is destroyed, right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and however, it is much harder to build up. Sale East (Paul Goggins) not only on securing the debate, but on his thoughtful, wide-ranging and incisive contribution. It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): As an Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), experienced former Government Minister, my right hon. who clearly has experience in these matters. He has Friend will know that Departments sometimes have the raised some important issues, particularly on the plurality capacity, when they are reviewing programmes and 9WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 10WH trying to look at the whole picture, to let things slip We are better informed than we were then. Several through the net. Is there a danger that Quilliam could organisations that have been active in this field have slip through the net? helped the Government and policy makers to come to a better analysis of the factors that lead people to extremism, Hazel Blears: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that but we do not have all the answers. I entirely accept that, intervention. The debate this morning is an attempt to although some of the measures in the Prevent programme ensure that Quilliam does not slip through the net, and I were successful, some were less successful, but what we know that Ministers in the Department are seized of were doing in that area was innovative and, in many the issues. We all recognise that these are difficult financial ways, experimental. times and that difficult decisions have to be made across I have spoken to people in the United States, France, the Government, and I want to explore that a little with Germany and countries across western Europe who say the Minister, perhaps with some specific questions later. that this country has been at the forefront of trying to We recognise that these are not easy times. The Home drill down to determine what the factors of extremism Office, which has taken a significant reduction in its are, and how to build resilience among young people so expenditure, clearly needs to economise. My right hon. that they can resist such messages. My sense is that Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East has those other countries are just beginning to take the first set out a specific proposition for £150,000 of transitional steps. Indeed, that was reaffirmed for my right hon. funding to enable Quilliam to pursue the other applications Friend and me when we went to the United States just that it has made, which ought to get us to a reasonable last week. Many of the Congressmen and women and position. I recognise that having an organisation solely Senators acknowledged that they are very much at the dependent on public funds is not tenable in the long beginning of thinking about a counter-radicalisation term. strategy, whereas this country is well ahead. This country’s position has been aided enormously by the different Tom Brake: The right hon. Lady has been familiar groups that we have funded to help us. They have had with the organisation for several years. Is she aware of programmes and have been able to develop an evidence whether Quilliam was previously given an indication base about the best way to counter extremism, and the that it should go to other organisations to find funding? Quilliam Foundation has been at the heart of that If it was but has not been successful in achieving process for the past three years at least. self-sufficiency, the Government would have strong As everyone knows, Quilliam was formed by Ed reservations about putting money in again. Husain and Maajid Nawaz, both of whom had been in the grip of extremists. They had been right at the heart Hazel Blears: This did not become a significant issue of Hizb ut-Tahrir and knew what it felt like to travel until we were facing the current financial circumstances down that path. Therefore, their voices and the voices of which pertain across Government. I certainly was not others at Quilliam who have been able to set out the aware of a major drive, which was unsuccessful, to press emotional process that happens to people on that journey Quilliam to find funds in other sectors. Clearly, the have been enormously powerful and valuable in working situation now is that economies need to be made. Quilliam out strategies to counter extremism. They were certainly has been put into that pot, but I want to explore with instrumental, when I was the Secretary of State for the Minister what other organisations are funded and Communities and Local Government, in my decision to what cuts have been made—I shall come shortly to the set up the Young Muslims Advisory Group and the Research Information and Communications Unit. We Muslim Women’s Advisory Group. need a better, broader picture of the total resources It was the first time in this country that we had available, and what decisions have been made about people at national level who were able to advise Ministers funding priorities. In a few weeks, we are expecting the about what it felt like to be a young person in the Prevent review, which will give us more insight into community with strong feelings about foreign policy what the balance of organisations ought to be. We and contentious issues, and with the many pressures absolutely need a balance. that face them at that time of their life. What could the This is not a partisan issue by any measure—it transcends Government do to try to help them to grow up with a party politics. It relates to the security and safety of our sense of this country’s values but also, of course, their country, and nothing can be more important than that. important personal identity and heritage? The Muslim My right hon. and hon. Friends and I are pursuing the Women’s Advisory Group was a fabulous opportunity matter to try to get a reasonable settlement. to find out about women’s lives, and how women could As my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe influence the young men in their families to withstand and Sale East said, I was the Minister with responsibility the extremist narrative. We can celebrate the huge amount for counter-terrorism at the time of the 7 July 2005 that we achieved, but, obviously, we have much more bombings. Even now, I can feel the sense of devastation to do. and shock that there was across the nation when that Going around the country after 7/7 with my right happened. People were asking who committed the hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale bombings, why they would want to do that to innocent East was probably one of the most testing experiences I men and women and their families, and what led them personally have ever undergone. The sense of anger, to be prepared to take their own life to fulfil what they bewilderment and shock in communities was palpable, presumably believed to be their mission and destiny. I but the message that came across to me time and again do not think that any of us really understood—we still was that the overwhelming majority of people in the do not—the many and varied factors that lead people Muslim community totally rejected the violence that down such a path, that lead them even to contemplate had taken place, and believed that killing innocent taking such steps. people was never justifiable. Unfortunately, the extremism 11WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 12WH

[Hazel Blears] Quilliam has produced excellent reports, and done project work—for example, its work in Pakistan, as my that leads people to contemplate and sometimes adopt right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and violence is with us now—there is no getting away from Sale East mentioned, which was funded by the Foreign that—and is likely to be with us for many years to come. Office, with road shows prepared in challenging and Life has changed, and we ought to recognise that the sometimes intimidating circumstances to make the case circumstances are very different. That is why it is so fearlessly. It has a tremendous record. It is seeking other important that we have the capacity to tackle that sources of funding. It recognises that the current situation ideology and the way in which people seek to groom cannot continue ad infinitum, but it must be given the others to take the path of violence. chance to do that work. I want to mention a report that has been published I have some questions for the Minister, and if he recently which I think is relevant to this debate. “Fear cannot answer them during the debate, I would appreciate and HOPE”, which was published last week by the it if he got back to me later. The Research Information Searchlight Educational Trust, is about the new politics and Communications Unit was established in the Office of identity. Many people who are susceptible to extremist of Security and Counter-terrorism in the Home Office narratives are struggling with their sense of identity: three or four years ago. My recollection is that that was who am I, where do I fit in, where do I belong, what is a fairly well resourced unit. It received contributions my value set? from the Department for Communities and Local Government, the Home Office, and the Foreign and The report, which was based on 5,000 interviews of Commonwealth Office, and it brought together a series people across the country who were asked more than of people with the skills to develop a counter-narrative, 90 questions, provides some fascinating results and to publish documents, and to do research and much of evidence. What gives me optimism and hope is that the work that Quilliam has been doing. there is widespread rejection of political violence. It is Dr Julian Lewis: I remember a conversation I had interesting that the vast majority of people who were with a senior Minister about the setting-up of RICU. questioned considered white anti-Muslim extremists to My understanding is that there was an analogy between be as bad as Islamist extremists. That tells me that a it and the operation set up at the onset of the cold war core part of our communities and population are basically to try to counter communist subversion and propaganda. saying, “A plague on both your houses. We want no part Either such organisations do the work themselves, or of extremism, whether far-right extremism, Islamist they do the research and support other non-governmental extremism or anti-Semitism—we reject all that.” organisations that will go on to the front line and fight It gives me great hope for the future that if we can the ideological battle. I do not think I have seen anything build, sustain and make that heart of our community to suggest that RICU is fighting that battle under its strong, it will empower and give confidence to young own banner on the front line. If it is not doing that people to say, “I reject the extremist narrative. I reject itself, why is it not perpetually committed to the support such ideologies and share the broad values of this of other organisations such as Quilliam which are prepared country.”That prize is so precious and valuable that the to go into the front line? investment of £150,000 to enable Quilliam to move to Hazel Blears: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent other sources of funding over the next few months is a point, to which I hope the Minister will respond. The small price to pay, considering the scale of the challenge comparison between the funding of RICU and the that we face. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member funding that we are asking for in this debate would be for Carshalton and Wallington that we need a broad illuminating. It is clear that there is a straightforward range of organisations to help with the agenda at every and simple al-Qaeda narrative, which is that the west is part of the spectrum. It is without doubt that Quilliam at war with Islam with a feeling of victimhood and has been prepared to be at one end of that spectrum, to grievance. That must be countered, and it is my speak out, not to be intimidated, and to state the case understanding that that was a core part of RICU’s for pluralism, inclusion and British values of democracy, responsibilities. I would be grateful if the Minister let us tolerance, free speech, and particularly the rights of know what its resources are, what the product is, what it women. It has been extremely effective in doing that. has been working on and, indeed, whether it can fund Obviously, we must support other organisations, and other organisations. I will come to that, but it is only three years since Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) Quilliam was established, and to have gained its reputation (Con): The right hon. Lady is making an important in the world within that period marks it out as a special speech, and I entirely agree with the broad thrust of organisation that has helped us to build that evidence what she is saying about Quilliam’s importance. Will base. Its report on radicalisation on campuses was she go into a little detail about the discussion she might extremely good and contained a series of recommendations. have had with that organisation about where it sees its We know that there is a problem on some of our diverse sources of funding coming from if it does not university campuses, and the report’s practical come simply from the Home Office, and a time frame recommendations could help us significantly. It produced for when new sources would come into play if the Home a report on the use of the internet to promote Jihad. We Office were able to continue some of the funding that it are now seeing preachers such as al-Maliki on the is planning to take away? internet urging people to take matters into their own hands without having a group around them, and to Hazel Blears: I am grateful for that question. Until carry out individual acts of terrorism. That report on recently, Quilliam was in a position to become self-financing the use of the internet was a good piece of work. The in a short time. It had offers of funding, but we then role of television in influencing young minds is crucial. had the recession, which has unfortunately affected all 13WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 14WH of us, including charitable donations. We have also had main points, but preferably only one, with which to the events in the middle east. I understand that some belabour one’s listeners over and over again, so that if support was pledged from organisations with middle they remembered nothing else about what one had said, east connections, but that has not been possible because they would remember that one point. of recent events. It now has a number of applications Here is my one point today. It is that countering with charitable foundations that are active in building hostile propaganda is not a commercial enterprise or capacity, resilience and counter-narratives. It has some undertaking. It requires sponsorship and support. It is applications with individuals who have a long track absolute nonsense to say that people who are brave record of support in this area. It is optimistic about enough to put themselves in the front of an ideological being able to obtain funding. It may not be at the same battle should be selling their product on a commercial level as in the past, which is why it has made some basis because that somehow means that their organisation redundancies—it wants to cut its cloth according to its is more vibrant. resources—but it is optimistic about being able to continue with a core facility and to build from there. That will If organisations that are fighting an ideological battle depend on its reputation and the worth of its product, do not get support from the Government, they will need and rightly so. It should be out there and showing it to to get it from private sources. I know of no organisation people. during the cold war that fought these sorts of ideological campaigns—there were many such organisations; I was I would be grateful if the Minister told us what the involved in several of them—that managed to make RICU budget is, what the overall budget is this year for enough money to sustain itself as a going concern the Prevent strategy and—I know that there will be a commercially. Such organisations had to find sponsorship. review—what it is likely to be, what other organisations As I understand it, Quilliam has been rather particular are active in developing the counter-narrative and the about the sponsors it has sought. It could have taken counter-extremism part, as opposed to some of the money from undemocratic regimes but I believe that it good community work that goes on, and how much turned down those offers. Although it might have agreed funding is provided to external organisations. Much of with those regimes on certain issues, it could not agree the Prevent review will be about project funding, and with the way that they rule their countries and peoples. Quilliam absolutely accepts that that is where it needs to Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that if Government be in future. Will the Minster confirm that applications funding is cut from an organisation, that organisation for project funding from the Quilliam Foundation will will somehow transform itself into a profit-making be considered in exactly the same way as applications enterprise. It will not; that is not its function. The more from any other body on the strength of the project that time that activists in a counter-propaganda organisation it is putting forward? spend raising funds, the less time they have available to We could make decisions on such issues that we may do the job of countering radicalisation and extremism. live to regret later. It is so much more difficult to I hope that the Government will have the good sense recreate something than to help it to continue to exist. I to continue funding Quilliam because I am a little entirely support my right hon. Friend the Member for concerned about what may be going on under the Wythenshawe and Sale East in his bid for £150,000 to surface. On the surface, as the right hon. Member for enable the organisation to have an effective transition. Salford and Eccles said at the beginning of her remarks, Nothing is more important than keeping our country we have an excellent speech from the Prime Minister safe, and I believe that the Quilliam Foundation plays a stating that we must be tough on radicalism and that we major role in that objective. must not compromise. We must not pretend that people who speak with a double voice, as it were, and say that Several hon. Members rose— they are against extremism on the one hand but treat it softly on the other, are the only people with whom we Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. I intend to call the should deal. Although that sort of speech makes all the shadow Minister at 10.40, so that gives hon. Members right sounds, in reality Government officials are kicking some idea of how much time we have left for the away the props that support what is undoubtedly one of remaining speakers. the most high-profile and successful organisations in the field of counter-propaganda. 10.18 am I use those words deliberately because this is a Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): It is a propaganda war involving propaganda by those who privilege to follow that outstanding speech by the right seek to radicalise, and counter-propaganda by those hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears). who seek to defeat and undermine their campaigns. Her work and that of the right hon. Member for That sort of work must not be undermined by paid Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) as Ministers Government officials at a time when the head of the on this topic excited the admiration of many of us when Government says that we ought to do more of it. we were on the Opposition Benches. It continues to Something strange is going on and I think I know excite my admiration now that they are in opposition, what it is. Reference was made earlier to the important but still fighting just as hard on this vital topic as they conference being held today at the Royal United Services ever did when they were Ministers. Institute. I had hoped to attend that conference this During the 1990s, I occasionally had the privilege of morning, but I felt that this debate was rather more taking part in courses on public speaking, oratory and important. My mind went back to a previous conference campaigning techniques with another member of the held quite a few years ago at the RUSI, and a rather House of Commons who is now Mr Speaker. He always impressive Government speaker on counter-terrorism. I impressed on everyone who came to our courses that subsequently sought a briefing from that speaker, and when making a speech one should have, at most, two the Government gave permission for me to have one. 15WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 16WH

[Dr Julian Lewis] Dr Lewis: It is not unrealistic and I made that explicit at the beginning of my speech. I said that if one does During the course of the conversation, I made the point not get funds from the Government, one must get them that one clearly had to encourage moderate Muslims to from another sponsor. Ideally, one should have a range stand up against minority activists, just as in so many of funders, and the Government ought to be a part of other fields. Particularly during the cold war and student that. My point is that if the Government have any sense, radicalism on campuses in other decades, it had been they will not withdraw funding in such a way that an necessary for moderates to stand up for the silent majority organisation will collapse. If they believe that the against the noisy activist and—above all—unrepresentative organisation’s work is of sufficient value, they should minority. I was intrigued by what the expert official ensure that it has secure funding before they begin to said. He replied, “That’s absolutely true: there is a gap draw down their own funding stream. It is as simple as between those who hold moderate values and those that. who hold extreme values. However, there is another gap I will conclude with one further point. It is my second between those who hold extreme values and those—a point and I do not mind if hon. Members do not much smaller group—who are willing to turn their remember it, as long as they remember my first point. extreme values and views into extreme and violent There are two types of counter-propaganda. There is action.” counter-propaganda that is designed to persuade people It seems that the Government—perhaps I should say to change their minds, and there is counter-propaganda the establishment, as that remains the same when that is designed to reinforce the moderate views that the Governments change—have primarily signed up to focusing silent majority already hold. on the division between extremist people who do not I shall give an example. When I was a youngster in the intend to be violent, and extremist people who intend to 1960s, a huge argument was going on about whether be violent. There is some value in that approach, but I this country should continue to be defended by a nuclear do not believe that it should be exclusive. If we depend deterrent. I was sure that it should continue to be on people in the Muslim community with extreme views defended by a nuclear deterrent, but time after time I to stand up against others from that community with would see people on the television and hear people on extreme views who want to be violent, we will not get a the radio saying, “No, that isn’t necessary.” I began to happy outcome. We must promote moderate values in think, “Well, I’m only a teenager. What do I know the Muslim community.Therefore, we need an organisation about this?” I began to doubt my own commitment. that is prepared not only to attack violent extremism, Then one day, someone from another country was but to counter the pernicious ideology of those who being interviewed on television and he made such a might not be planning violence, but who foster an convincing case for the nuclear deterrent, and articulated extreme ideological environment where some people so much better than I could, as a youngster, the case for will absorb sufficiently illiberal notions and end up what I believed already, that I thought, “Fine. I’m okay. turning to violence. That’s all I need to know. At least one other person in I am concerned about this issue because there are a the world, brainier and more articulate than I am, has couple of ways in which counter-propaganda organisations come to the same conclusion for the same reason.” can work. Some such organisations can, and should, concentrate on changing minds. If we wish to try that, it I believe that groups such as Quilliam both need to is important to persuade people who are inclined towards do the type of work that I have described and actually fundamentalism that they are wrong, and to have do that type of work. There are moderate Muslims organisations that are perhaps tolerated more happily who, because of the way in which radicalism and extremism than Quilliam within the Muslim ideological community. dominate the narrative, will begin to doubt themselves— Those organisations can work on trying to change the even though their own views are moderate. It is the job minds of those who are already radical. of a group such as Quilliam to show that when the extremists say, “We are mainstream and you are un-Islamic,” There is, however, another more important element in fact the reverse is the case. To get that message across, that must not be neglected. We hope, and I genuinely people must be knowledgeable and professional, must believe, that the majority of people in the Muslim have a huge amount of detail at their disposal and must community—I would like to think the overwhelming have access to the airwaves, the printing presses and the majority—hold moderate beliefs and are not extremist internet. at all. The problem is that of the three sectors—the moderate community, the extreme community that is I am very sorry that the Government, because they not violent and the extreme splinter community that is believe in persuading people to change their minds, are violent—the Government machine focuses too much on to kick away the support from an organisation that is the second two categories, to the exclusion of the first. dedicated to reinforcing people who do not need to The only way we will win an ideological battle or war is change their minds, but need to be encouraged to speak by mobilising the silent majority. The silent majority is up and need to be reassured that they are right and the a hackneyed phrase because we use it a lot. Nevertheless, extremists are wrong. This is not a commercial enterprise; we use it a lot because it is true; it has to be true, and if it it is a political fight. If the Government want to take the were not we might as well give up on civilisation straight line that the organisation must be self-funding and away. We need groups that are not necessarily involved self-supporting, let us ask ourselves this final question. in trying to change minds, but rather in trying to How many Departments would be able to do their work reinforce moderate views that already exist. if they had to raise the money to fund it themselves as a result of the product of their work, rather than their Tom Brake: Does the hon. Gentleman believe that it income stream coming from taxation? I think we would is unrealistic to expect Quilliam to secure funds from find that not a single Department—except perhaps the trusts or benefactors rather than from the Government? Ministry of fun—would survive such a proposition. 17WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 18WH

I believe that Quilliam’s work is essential. I believe notion, ultimately, that the west is so all-powerful that it that it is non-commercial. It has been supported thanks is responsible, either through its foreign policy decisions to the work of the right hon. Member for Salford and or through other means, for encouraging terrorism. Eccles and of the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe Quilliam challenges that, too, so it provides a service and Sale East, whom I congratulate on initiating this well beyond the argument that currently takes place very important debate. It is no coincidence that more within the Islamic community. than half the House of Commons members of the Intelligence and Security Committee are here making Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I am sorry this case today, even though we are making it in our that I came into the debate late; that was because of a personal capacities, not as members of that Committee. traffic problem. Does my right hon. Friend agree that I shall leave time for the right hon. Member for he is repeating almost word for word the message of the Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) to speak. Prime Minister both at the Community Security Trust I hope that the Government will take our message dinner two weeks ago and in Kuwait—the message that extremely seriously. he has constantly urged? I understand why the Liberal Democrats want to kill Quilliam, but I just cannot Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Order. I know that understand why Conservative officials and Ministers in Mr McFadden has been very patient, but I must remind the Home Office want to do it such damage. him that the Front-Bench responses to the debate start at 10.40. Mr McFadden: I cannot speak for the Conservatives. The Minister will have a chance to do that in a few 10.33 am minutes. Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): As we have said, what Quilliam does is important Thank you, Mr Dobbin. I congratulate my right hon. because those who lead it are themselves ex-supporters Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East of violent jihad. Therefore it is done with a level of (Paul Goggins) on initiating the debate. We all know understanding and engagement in ideological and, indeed, that the backdrop to it is the very serious terrorist threat theological debate that is well nigh impossible for Ministers. that we face. That is not a myth; it is not something that That is important because it is extremely difficult for the has been made up. In the London underground bombings, state to engage in theological debate, and the argument 52 people were killed. Since then there has been the plot must be won theologically as well as ideologically. to blow up airliners, which resulted in the liquid restrictions The Government have proposed to cut core funding on aeroplanes; we have had the shoe bomber, Richard for the organisation. That is a mistake. As the hon. Reid; and we have had the Christmas day attack on the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, Quilliam Northwest Airlines flight to Detroit involving Umar has given strength and confidence to others, too. That is Farouk Abdulmutallab. There have also been other a very important aspect of its work. By stepping forward, incidents—some that we know about and probably people from the organisation have given strength to some that we do not know about. others who probably think these things but may not To combat terrorism, we of course need security have seen other people in the debate giving voice to forces to catch and punish those responsible but, as them. other hon. Members have said, we must also confront I shall ask the Minister a direct question. I understand and challenge the ideology that feeds such acts. Quilliam that the Home Office budget is under pressure—the is critical in that fight. It cannot all be done by Government pace and scale of cuts is an argument for another and Government agencies. As other hon. Members day—but is the decision purely budgetary or, as the have said, this is an ideological struggle that must take hon. Member for New Forest East implied, is something place within the Islamic community itself. else going on? Is there a wider disagreement with what I have had less direct ministerial involvement in this Quilliam has advocated in recent years? I believe that issue than my colleagues, but of course our political the proposal made by my right hon. Friend the Member interests are not confined purely to our ministerial for Wythenshawe and Sale East for a grant of £150,000 experience. However, one issue in which I did have some to give the organisation time and space to seek alternative ministerial involvement was extremism on university funding is worthy of support, even in these difficult campuses. I commend Quilliam for the work and research times. that it has done on extremism on campuses, which is Let us just ask ourselves this question. What will the growing. One of Quilliam’s founders, Ed Husain, outlines debate about terrorism be like if Quilliam folds? The very well in his book the expertise with which Islamic hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom extremists use the liberal values of those who run our Brake) said that there are other organisations. I have colleges and universities to propagate what they want to not really seen them. I have not seen others stepping do and put the university or college authorities on the forward with the degree of clarity and theological and defensive. ideological commitment that Quilliam has had. As we have all agreed, Quilliam is an important There is a complacency about saying that others will organisation. It is important because it is unequivocal simply step forward. I have long experience of seeing in its condemnation of terrorism. It challenges the this ideology develop, not particularly as an MP, but as ideology that feeds it. It condemns suicide bombings; it a Government staffer. I have seen some of the errors does not make excuses for them. It takes on arguments that Governments have made in the past and, frankly, I perpetrated by the apologists for terrorism. Quilliam is do not want to return to the situation we had 10 years also important in another sense. It challenges the notion, ago, when we listened to many voices that we thought sometimes spread by non-Muslims as well as Muslims, were representative. There is a danger of complacency that the terrorist problem is all our fault—the conceited in cutting Quilliam’s funding, and if the Minister thinks 19WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 20WH

[Mr McFadden] one of the things that was difficult; at one point, the community felt that it was under attack by the state and that other organisations will step forward to fill the void that we were describing it as the enemy, for want of a if Quilliam does not get the funding it so urgently better term. The reality was that we needed to get into needs, I would like him to name them today. the community, and particularly to young people who I hope that the Minister has heard the arguments that felt isolated. Quilliam can do that. have been made today. I also hope that he will respond What strikes me about the debate is that Quilliam has positively to the proposal from my right hon. Friend the been acknowledged as an organisation that speaks its Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East and tell us mind. In speaking its mind, however, it can also create exactly who will speak up and make the arguments that enemies and problems, including with officials in Quilliam has made if that organisation no longer exists. Departments, although I do not mean that in a critical way—that is just the way things develop and operate. Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Thank you, Mr McFadden, As has been said, Quilliam has set about these issues for a disciplined speech. and produced important research on a complex and controversial subject. As my right hon. Friend the Member 10.40 am for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) said, Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): It is a its research and reports on radicalisation on university great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, campuses has been important. It has also done work in Mr Dobbin. It is a delight to be involved in a debate British mosques and the prison system. As a former that has none of the partisanship we would expect when Prisons Minister, I was interested in what Quilliam said talking about organisations’ funding. about the radicalisation of prisoners. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Quilliam’s reports have been enlightening and important. Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) on securing Just yesterday, it produced a considered and thoughtful the debate. I also congratulate other right hon. and hon. report on the situation in Libya, arguing for action by Members on their contributions, which they made with the international community. It has also done important passion. They have shown their credibility and the work overseas, and the hon. Member for New Forest experience they have gained in an individual capacity, East talked about the work that it did in Pakistan, although as the hon. Member for New Forest East challenging extremism and promoting a democratic (Dr Lewis) said, they also represent almost half the culture. Although Quilliam is not universally popular, it members of the Intelligence and Security Committee. is clear that many of its critics are apologists for radical The Minister would do well to take that experience on Islamism. board. In that respect, I was impressed to hear that I have listened to the debate with interest. Accepting Lord Carlile, who has been the independent adjudicator Government funding can give rise to the thought that on counter-terrorism matters, also supports Quilliam. people are betraying themselves as Government stooges. As my right hon. Friend said, the Government have If people rely only on Government funding and have no made the wrong decision—I fully understand why, given other funding, are they putting themselves in a difficult the cuts to the Home Office budget and the problems position? Such thoughts have undoubtedly alienated Ministers face—but they now have an opportunity to some in the Muslim community from Quilliam. It is not put things right. surprising that Quilliam is not universally popular, however, I want to put on record my thanks to my right hon. because it tackles controversial issues and it is not Friends the Members for Wythenshawe and Sale East afraid to tell it like it is. and for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) for the work When we look at Prevent, it is right that we look at all they did as Ministers after 7/7. As a West Yorkshire MP, the issues. This is not the time to argue about Government I am well aware of the mood—the shock and horror—in cuts or the timetable for the review of Prevent. However, West Yorkshire when we found out that the bombers we should recognise that Quilliam is a powerful were from our area. There was great concern in organisation, which is supported by many Members of communities, and I am grateful to Members for saying the House with expert knowledge of these issues. People that the majority of Muslim people support the state could argue that this is special pleading, but it is special and do not agree with the atrocities that have taken pleading for an organisation that could, as I said in an place. intervention on my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles, slip through the net if nothing Paul Goggins: My hon. Friend takes my mind back to happens; indeed, Quilliam is already making redundancies the day I visited Bradford, when he and other colleagues and looking at its finances. helped to organise an important meeting with the Muslim community. Does he remember that the central focus of Ministers face difficult decisions in good times and our discussion was concerns about the inability of us as bad times; they have to deal with budgets and other outsiders, and indeed of Muslim leaders themselves, issues, and they rely a lot on support from their officials. to communicate effectively with young people in the However, if decisions are not taken quickly in this case, community? Is that not something that Quilliam can do Quilliam will be lost, and if it is, it will not be rediscovered, very effectively? as Members have said. We cannot readily call on such expertise. Mr Sutcliffe: Very much so. That was one of the key I hope that the Minister will answer the question points. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford posed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles was honourable enough to say that although and Eccles in the spirit that she asked it. We need to we got lots of things right in Prevent, we also got lots of know what is going on. Is this a political decision? Have things wrong. Communication with the community was Ministers reflected on the issue in light of the support 21WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 22WH for Quilliam? The hon. Member for Carshalton and more Home Office Prevent funding than any other Wallington (Tom Brake) is right to say that we have to single organisation—nearly £1.2 million over the past look at every area of spend in these difficult times, but it three financial years. The Foreign Office has provided is important that we do not throw the baby out with the nearly £1.5 million in project funding over the same bathwater. period. I fear that the Government’s good intentions in reviewing Regarding funding for Quilliam and other organisations, Prevent could put an end to an organisation that has Pakistan was mentioned and the important work that credibility and support in the UK and internationally. needs to be done there. Tackling radicalisation in Pakistan In that respect, I am heartened to hear that it has is clearly important but, to put it into context, there are charity status in the US, which shows its willingness to nearly 100 organisations, large and small, supporting go out and look for other funding. It is important that it Prevent overseas. More than 20 of those are in Pakistan, retains credibility in terms of where it gets its funding. many of them working anonymously for obvious security As has been said, it could get funding from many reasons. All of those are funded by the Foreign Office. different organisations, but would that be the right This financial year, the Home Office has provided funding for Quilliam, given the context of its work? Quilliam with six-figure funding. It has been invited to I hope that the Minister will reflect on the debate, submit bids for project funding in the next financial which has been excellent, well-informed and non-partisan. year. I understand that difficult choices have to be made, but I hope we can make sure that this organisation does not Dr Lewis: I wish Ministers would stop using the slip through the net. phrase, which has clearly been given to them, of six-figure funding. Six-figure funding can be from £100,000 to 10.48 am £999,000. There are big variations in it. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): In Damian Green: There are indeed, and I will come to congratulating the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe exact figures in a second. and Sale East (Paul Goggins), let me say how grateful I The funding provided to Quilliam has been unique, am for the constructive way in which he made his not only in its scale but in its scope. It has been used not suggestions and asked his questions; indeed, I am grateful just for projects and programmes but, exceptionally, for for the constructive tone in which the whole debate has significant overheads and running costs. The Government taken place. I am particularly grateful to have had the agree that Quilliam deserved some support in the past, benefit of the experience of the right hon. Member for and we continue to believe that Quilliam is capable of Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears), who clearly grappled useful work. However, following a review of all the with these absolutely vital, difficult and sensitive issues organisations, projects and programmes supported as when she worked in various Departments. part of the Prevent strategy, Home Office Ministers I should say at the outset that there is no doubt that have taken the decision to end funding for Quilliam’s Quilliam has done important work in support of counter- running costs from the end of this financial year. Clearly, terrorism efforts in this country. Various Members on that is the heart and purpose of the debate. both sides have quoted the Prime Minister’s Munich I say to the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and speech, in which he set out the course that the Government Sale East that there is an offer on the table to Quilliam will follow on counter-terrorism, and Quilliam continues of tens of thousands of pounds to cover the next few to contribute to that. The Home Office understood the months of basic operations. He and the array of role that Quilliam could play when it helped the organisation distinguished ex-Ministers on the Opposition benches get off the ground in 2008. Officials and Ministers will recognise that this not the place to conduct detailed provided it with extensive advice and assistance at that financial negotiations. I want to assure him and everyone time. who has attended the debate that there is an offer. It The Home Office envisaged that Quilliam would be would be foolish for me to start negotiating here; I will able to work in and with Muslim communities, and merely gently observe that the £150,000 transitional particularly with young people, challenging and exposing money referred to by several right hon. and hon. Members terrorist ideology and contributing to the aim of stopping is actually more than the total Home Office money people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism, to given to Quilliam over the past 12 months, as decided observe the distinction made by my hon. Friend the by the previous Government. I would not want anyone Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis). The Home to leave the debate with the thought that £150,000 is a Office judged that, as former radical Islamists themselves, small percentage of what Quilliam might have expected Quilliam’s founders would be able to draw on their own to receive. It is actually more than the total budget experiences to describe that ideology, explain why it received from the Home Office in the past year. might seem superficially compelling and demonstrate its incoherence. Quilliam subsequently developed a Hazel Blears: Will the Minister give an indication of significant research function, and has published some when Quilliam was first told that it would need to papers on important issues, including radicalisation on replace the Home Office funding with funding from the internet, in prisons and in further and higher education. other sources? It is fair to say that, since 2008, Quilliam has developed a brand, a message and a clear public position. It is Damian Green: In December. My hon. Friend the known not only in this country but overseas, notably in Member for New Forest East asked for specific numbers. the USA. Throughout that period, both the Home The trajectory of Home Office direct funding for Quilliam Office and the Foreign Office provided Quilliam with is quite clear. In 2008-09, it was £665,000; in 2009-10, it significant financial assistance. Quilliam has received was £387,000; and in 2010-11, it was £145,000. There 23WH Quilliam Foundation15 MARCH 2011 Quilliam Foundation 24WH

[Damian Green] Damian Green: I am trying to come to that point. The principle we want to uphold is that Quilliam should be was a clear trend in the direction agreed with by everyone free to contribute to the wider debate, but not depend who has spoken in the debate: that is, that Quilliam on Government funding to do so. The other think-tanks does good work but that a think-tank of that kind that have also published on radicalisation—including should not be reliant for its core running costs on Demos, the Policy Exchange and the Centre for Social Government funding. Cohesion—all operate on that basis. It is the way that all successful think-tanks need to operate. The right Dr Lewis rose— hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) asked a reasonable question about Damian Green: If my hon. Friend will excuse me, I whether think-tank work can contribute to countering need to make some progress, because others have asked radicalisation. That is done by a number of think-tanks. interesting “in principle” questions, which I need to There is an important point of principle about whether address. He himself gave the impression there was some think-tanks should continually depend on direct state kind of conspiracy afoot, and I wish to reject that. funding for their core activities to continue their work year after year. Home Office Ministers have taken the decisions they have for three reasons. First, Quilliam has, as we all Paul Goggins: I am grateful to the Minister for giving agree, evolved into a think-tank; it is no longer fulfilling way: all of us who have been Ministers recognise that the role for which it was originally funded by the the timing of winding-up the debate is a fine art, and previous Government. Secondly, Quilliam has continually there is much ground to cover. committed to broadening its sources of funding and to The Minister has recognised the contribution that becoming more self-reliant, and I think we agree that Quilliam has made. He talked about an offer running that needs to happen. Thirdly, Home Office Ministers into tens of thousands of pounds. We have argued for believe that the Department can no longer make an £150,000. If there is good will, a real interest in making exception for Quilliam by paying for its ongoing running sure that the organisation can survive, will the Minister costs as well as funding specific projects. The Home agree to meet me and other colleagues to pursue that, to Office does not support any other think-tank on that see if what may be a narrow gap can be closed? basis, a point well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). Damian Green: I am always willing to meet the right Let me deal with each of those points in turn. As I hon. Gentleman. I know he met the Home Secretary have already said, the original purpose for which Quilliam yesterday, and the situation on the subject has not was funded by Government was to work in and with changed radically in the 12 hours since he met her. Muslim communities to challenge the ideology of terrorism Let me address the issues. The Foreign Office and the and extremism. In some cases, that has not been done as Home Office fund a number of small organisations, successfully as Ministers originally hoped. Since 2008, charities, civil society organisations and faith communities Quilliam has progressively engaged in a different and to deliver the Prevent programme, overseas and in this rather broader range of activities consistent with its country. There are more than 130 such organisations. declared intention of being a think-tank. It publishes To protect them and their credibility we do not disclose work on a range of security issues, not confined to the their names. I am sure everyone will recognise that they narrower and hugely important issue of countering are sometimes working in high-risk environments. Their radicalisation. In doing so, I emphasise again, Quilliam credibility needs protection because research that appears makes important contributions to the overall debate. to be British Government-inspired will inevitably have less credibility. Mr McFadden: I appreciate the pressure of time. I am The right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles asked not sure that I accept the distinction the Minister makes about RICU. It has clearly received staff and resources between think-tank work and countering extremism. from the Foreign Office, from the Department for The publication of the reports is important in countering Communities and Local Government and from the extremism. To get to the point, can the Minister say Home Office, recognising the challenge of producing a who he thinks will step forward and do this if Quilliam coherent narrative overseas, nationally and among local folds? communities. I will write to her on the details. 25WH 15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 26WH

NHS (Essex) from their own areas that population growth inevitably puts more burdens not only on infrastructure but on the local NHS. 11 am The local plans, particularly those that affect my Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): I am grateful to Mr Speaker constituency, unfortunately give no serious consideration for granting me the opportunity in Westminster Hall to to ensuring that the quality and quantity of local health draw directly to the Minister’s attention a number of services can keep pace with projected population increases important issues regarding the performance of NHS and changing demographics. Although top-down targets services in my constituency and in the county of Essex. are being scrapped by the present Government, the I suspect that the matters that I shall raise and the attractiveness and desirability of my constituency inevitably constituents’ cases that I shall mention are by no means means that more people will move to the area, so we can unique to my constituency or the county. However, the expect to see a significant increase in the local population. Government are developing the most important and, in That will put demands on local health services that are my opinion, long-overdue changes to the NHS, and I already struggling to cope. want to ensure that the problems and challenges faced by my constituents are thoroughly and fully considered. It is not simply the sheer quantity of people that Throughout the endless reforms and reorganisations NHS services will need to support; they will also need undertaken by the previous Government, the health to adapt to the changing demographics of the area. needs of patients were never afforded the same priority Because our local communities attract young families, as the expanding tick-box bureaucracy suffered by my we need stronger maternity services and paediatric provision. constituents. One consequence of the waste that was However, the most significant demographic change will created is that the money put into the health service be an acceleration of the number and proportion of never achieved the true outcomes that my constituents residents over the age of 65. In that respect, my constituency deserved and needed. That has led in part to my constituents and the county of Essex are not unique, as health suffering poor patient choice and health care services. services across the country are responding to an ageing However, we cannot change everything about the past. population. By 2021, the NHS in Essex, along with its partners in local government, will need to accommodate The Minister, the Government and, most importantly, the health needs of 45% more people in the county my constituents want an effective NHS for the British living beyond the age of 65, and 75% more people living people; it should deliver value for the taxpayer, ensuring beyond the age of 85. that the mistakes of the past are not repeated and that all receive the care and front-line services that are their Some of the most significant increases in Essex are due. It is therefore essential that as the NHS is reformed, expected to be in the Maldon district, part of which the needs of local communities in my constituency of falls within the Witham constituency. It is worth noting Witham are not overlooked or ignored. That is why this that about 10% of the Essex population provides assistance, debate is so timely. caring for family, friends or neighbours, with higher than average rates in Maldon, where the number of By way of background, I shall give the Minister some working-age people available to care for older persons details about my constituency and some of the health will have nearly halved by 2029. These demographic care challenges faced by my local community and me changes present serious challenges to the front line of that are specific to the area, and the nature of current the NHS in my constituency and in the county. NHS services there. I shall then highlight the excessive and overblown bureaucracy that affects the NHS globally, I am pleased to report that Essex county council is which demonstrates the scale of taxpayers’ money that taking a strong lead in implementing the Government’s is increasingly and wrongly being taken from front-line reforms to deal with the challenge. It has already established services. I shall also draw attention to some of the most a health and well-being board, and the Department of serious and heart-breaking cases that I have come across Health recognises it as an early implementer. I would in the 10 months since I was elected elected, which show welcome the Minister’s reassurance that the Government, that the NHS too often fails the most vulnerable. I shall unlike the Labour party, which has made no commitment conclude my remarks by putting the case for new NHS to NHS funding to support this work, will continue to services being delivered locally under the Government’s increase resources when necessary to support the health planned reforms. needs of my constituency and Essex. I shall emphasise Witham is a new constituency, so I forgive Members throughout the debate the need for the money to be for not knowing much about it. It is not far from the spent on front-line care, not bureaucracy. London commuter belt, and lies within the heart of That brings me to NHS bureaucracy in Essex and my Essex. We have tremendous public transport and road constituency, and specifically to our local primary care links to London. The ports of Felixstowe, Harwich and trusts. The Minister will be aware that the medical Tilbury are not far away, and we have some major needs of my constituents are served by a number of industrial towns and centres. It is not surprising, therefore, NHS trusts and by the East of England strategic health that Witham has experienced significant population authority. There is no general hospital in my constituency; growth in recent years. It is an attractive area to live in. local residents usually use the Broomfield hospital run The three local authority areas in my constituency by the Mid Essex Hospital Services NHS Trust, which is are Braintree, Colchester and Maldon. Under the previous based in the neighbouring constituency—that of the Government, they were required to build more than Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. 27,000 new homes in the 20 years to 2021, and 60,000 Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns)—or the new homes between 2011 and 2031. Throughout Essex, foundation trust hospital in Colchester for acute care the current population of 1.4 million could easily grow services. Mental health services are provided by the by 14% over the next 20 years. Members will be aware North Essex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust. 27WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 28WH

[Priti Patel] former senior nurses, such as her colleague, the Minister, who bring much of their clinical background and expertise My constituents are served by two of the five primary to bear on their role? Nurses in particular get a little care trusts in Essex. Those who live in the Braintree pained when politicians talk about managers and discount district council or Maldon district council parts of my the fact that many of them are people with a very solid constituency fall within the area covered by the Mid clinical background. Essex NHS trust, whose budget for 2011-12 has increased to just under £520 million. Those who live in the wards Priti Patel: I recognise that NHS managers have a covered by Colchester borough council find themselves range of health care backgrounds and bring a number being dealt with by NHS North East Essex, whose of skills to the table. Of concern to my constituents budget for 2011-12 has risen to just under £547 million. though is the fact that we are dominated by managers Later, I will give examples of cases in which constituents who tend to have administrative rather than clinical have faced unacceptable problems with those health backgrounds, and they are making key decisions about trusts. In the meantime, it is worth looking at the patient treatment, and even about medical care and obscene levels of bureaucracy, administration and access to drugs. None the less, I thank the hon. Lady for management that have taken hold of those organisations. her comments and her valid point. The number of managers and senior managers employed This brings me to the overall efficiency and effectiveness by the East of England strategic health authority doubled of the reorganisation. I have been told that reorganisation under the previous Government from 1,300 in 1997 to will lead to a significant step forward in delivering more than 2,700 in 2009. At Mid Essex Hospital Services greater efficiency for the people of north Essex. None NHS Trust, more than £10 million is spent annually on the less, I constantly have to ask the PCT, “What does 29 senior managers and 79 managers. In the North East this mean? What will this look like? What are the costs Essex PCT and its three predecessor trusts, the proportion of the reorganisation?” I was told last autumn that the of administrative staff rose from 19% to 33% between PCT could not quantify the cost of reorganisation as 2001 and 2009. The number of managers and senior the process of reconfiguration had only just started. I managers increased from 25 to 84. have been asking for updates, but as yet, have not Finally, Mid Essex PCT, which serves the majority of received any. Each time I ask anything, I am told that my constituents, and its four predecessor trusts, saw my question cannot be answered “at this time”. administration and staffing levels rise from 17% to There is far too much uncertainty. I welcome 33%, and the number of managers go up from 10 to reorganisation, efficiency drives and reductions in 102. When we consider that those two PCTs were formed management and bureaucracy costs, but there are major from seven predecessor organisations, it is fair to say implications for front-line services. The language of the that the growth in management and administration PCT is constantly about reorganisation producing greater over eight years is quite shocking. The PCT now spends efficiencies, which I would not dispute, but the PCT still almost £13 million on management costs alone. That has no detailed plans to show what the greater efficiencies money, which my constituents and I view as hard-pressed will look like and what the formation of the new cluster taxpayers’ money, has been taken away from essential will mean for local services. local medical care to staff a bureaucracy. Mid Essex The merging of back-office functions to save money PCT is also experiencing slippage in progress on its is to be welcomed and I have no issue with that. In this quality, innovation and prevention plan and, as a result, case, however, I have discovered that there is no forward could now miss its year-end target by £2.7 million. On plan in the form of a route map and details of how 16 November, the minutes of its remuneration committee, things will operate. I have been asking questions for six which have not been disclosed fully, indicate that months, but I have not received any substantial details performance bonuses were to be paid to the chief executive about the new cluster, the staffing arrangements and and its executive directors. what it will all mean for patient choice locally. I have What concerns me is not just the vast sums of money sent written questions to the Secretary of State about increasingly flowing into the pockets of bureaucrats the reorganisation but, again, I have not had a response. and managers, but the way in which the PCT is behaving Will the Minister examine this reorganisation and and functioning since it embarked on its reorganisation. ensure that more information is made available to the It seems to have no real idea as to what it is reorganising public so that they have some sense of what kind of into. That is a cause for alarm. I hope the Minister is decision making is taking place locally within the new aware that last autumn, North Essex PCT and Mid cluster and the PCT, and what it will mean to them in Essex PCT decided to form a cluster with West Essex terms of access to health care and local services? It PCT under a new chief executive. The first I heard of appears that many of the decisions have been taken that change was when I received a press release last behind closed doors, with very little accountability and September. In a massive blaze of glory, it was announced transparency. It is in the public interest to know what that the chief executive of the strategic health authority has transpired within the reorganisation, and what the would form closer working arrangements with the PCT. new arrangements will look like as well as the costs and the benefits. Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) As the PCT should rightly be beginning its winding-down (Lab): The hon. Lady has spoken at some length and process prior to its abolition, I would like to hear from with real passion about money being poured into the the Minister about the redundancy arrangements for appointment of bureaucrats and managers. In her mind’s senior PCT managers. I am sure that that is a matter eye, a hospital bureaucrat is a man in a bowler hat with that is naturally in their minds right now. In view of the a brief case, but is she aware that many people who are colossal levels of waste caused by PCTs, my constituents dubbed managers in the health service are actually will be very disappointed to see PCT chief executives 29WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 30WH and other senior directors receive golden goodbyes to a prescription of Sativex, although in this instance the boost pension pots or huge redundancy pay-outs. In the obstacle has been dealing with North Essex PCT. Mr Cross interests of accountability and transparency, all constituents is wheelchair-bound and in terrible pain, experiencing across the country will be looking, during the NHS constant spasms. In fact, he has recently been in hospital. reforms, for some encouragement from the Government Given his condition, any treatment would be a welcome on that issue. relief for him. There is double suffering for his wife, as it Before I move on to some individual cases, let me just were, because she is now effectively his full-time carer. say that I make no apologies for being critical of NHS Once again, getting access to this drug has been terrible. bureaucracy. In my limited time as an MP, I have seen He has had his consultant neurologist battling for him endless examples of red tape standing in the way of my and making his case, and I too have battled for him and constituents getting the best health care that should be made his case. But North Essex PCT, despite issuing available to them. I am overwhelmed by the whole 16 prescriptions for Sativex in 2009-10, still refused to culture of tick-box management that has pervaded my prescribe this treatment for Mr Cross and gave him a local NHS. It is something with which I have been highly dismissive response. battling, day in, day out, on the behalf of my constituents. When I took up Mr Cross’s case from September It is an alarming state of affairs. 2010 onwards, I began a process of constant correspondence Let me now draw to the Minister’s attention a couple with the PCT. All I received were evasive non-responses of cases. I have been in touch with the Minister and the and the odd reference to Mr Cross’s “medical needs”, Department about the issue of Sativex. There have been which were then just dismissed. I found that totally two cases in my constituency in which the PCTs have unacceptable. Mr Cross’s condition has since deteriorated refused to treat patients on the NHS with the drug and he has been in hospital again. There needs to be a Sativex despite their doctors’ recommending its use to recognition of the endless stress and strain that this help with multiple sclerosis. In both cases, the PCTs process puts on his own domestic set-up, especially his have been able to afford to pay more to their managers dear wife who is now his constant carer. and to spend more on red tape and bureaucracy, but There is a compelling case for action in both of those have refused to provide vital medical treatment to my cases, to press the PCTs to provide this drug. Also, both constituents. of my constituents have made the point that they have First, Mr Shipton from Tollesbury was recommended spent their lives working hard, doing the right thing and Sativex by four doctors, to help his condition. Those contributing to society. They had felt that in their hour doctors are medical experts who have been treating him of need the NHS would be there for them, but now they and who are aware of his condition and medical needs. feel that it has not been there for them. That is unacceptable. However, last September Mid Essex PCT, acting through Although I appreciate that the Minister cannot intervene officials sitting on its area prescribing committee, thought in individual cases, I ask her at least to examine these that it knew best and decided that it would not accept a cases if she possibly can. request for Sativex to be prescribed to Mr Shipton on There are two other cases that I want to touch on the NHS. That left him in considerable pain and distress. briefly. The first is that of my constituent Mrs Emily It then took more than a month for the chief executive Wetherilt, and again I would welcome the Minister of the PCT to respond to my request for copies of looking into it. It is another example of a local PCT minutes of the meeting at which that decision was failing to perform adequately to meet the medical needs made. The minutes stated that the PCT declined to of my constituents. Mrs Wetherilt is 96 years old and prescribe Sativex to Mr Shipton requires 24-hour care. However, despite her case meeting “due to a lack of evidence of significant long-term benefit. the published criteria for NHS continuing health care Clinical trials are of very short duration and do not compare with funding, Mid Essex PCT has refused to provide any current treatment.” care whatsoever. So there has been no support for her Despite that, however, Sativex is already licensed—in from the PCT. Mrs Wetherilt’s daughter has taken up fact, it was licensed last June—for use to improve symptoms this matter directly with the PCT’s panel twice and she in multiple sclerosis patients with moderate to severe has been declined on both occasions. The PCT categorically symptoms, clearing the way for the PCT to prescribe it. refuses to look into this matter again, because an appeal Indeed, the PCT itself had made 31 previous prescriptions had not been lodged within the two-week window that of Sativex in 2009-10. was available to Mrs Wetherilt’s daughter. My constituent, Mr Shipton, ended up sourcing Sativex Many of us recognise that in cases such as this one, privately, at the cost of £125 plus VAT per bottle, which when a constituent’s family is caring for them, the is a course of treatment that lasts for only two weeks. family’s priority is looking after their family member Contrary to the conclusions of the area prescribing and it is not to follow an appeals process within a committee, the drug is having a hugely beneficial effect two-week window. People become very emotional and on Mr Shipton. If the bureaucracy of the PCT had not providing care takes precedence. That care is the priority. stood in the way, he could have received that treatment Consequently, the tone and the attitude adopted by the at a much earlier date and he would not have had to PCT are utterly bureaucratic and deeply unhelpful. endure extreme suffering and pain, as well as what I Mrs Wetherilt’s daughter has also offered to work would describe as an unnecessary bureaucratic process. with the PCT to find out whether it is possible for the I have another constituent, Mr Cross from Tiptree, PCT to part-fund her mother’s care, but that suggestion who has also experienced horrendous problems. In fact, was dismissed by the PCT without even being addressed. his wife, Mrs Cross, is on the phone to my office on a That is another example of the inflexible bureaucracy weekly basis, updating us about the terrible position that fails to put patients’ care and needs first. It is more that her husband is in and the suffering that he is about the process—ticking boxes and filling in forms—and experiencing. He has had horrendous problems receiving that is wrong. 31WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 32WH

[Priti Patel] last week, Witham town is the most urban part of my constituency and Witham town council and others have I have a final shocking case to highlight. It is one that put forward a very strong case for there to be more I have raised previously in the House and it is that of my health care specialist services in our town. Although constituent, 14-year-old Bethanie Thorn. Last October, Colchester, Braintree and Chelmsford all have significant Bethanie was struck down with a terrible illness and left health facilities, including general hospitals and community bed-ridden. She literally went from being a healthy hospitals, there is nothing for the people of Witham in teenager one day to being completely bed-bound two our town, and there is nothing for the people from the days later. The cause of her symptoms was unknown surrounding villages. That gives the impression locally and she became unable to eat as her condition deteriorated. that there is a two-tier health system. Nevertheless, she faced lengthy delays to get a MRI I mentioned at the start of my remarks that the scan and the other vital checks that were needed to Witham area includes some pockets of serious deprivation diagnose her condition. and has a growing population. Unfortunately, the PCT It was only last November, when I raised this matter has not taken enough action to close the gap created by on the Floor of the House, that the Secretary of State the changing demographics and local needs. Maltings looked into Bethanie’s case and appointments were Lane is a new housing development in Witham town. It made for her to have a MRI scan. People in urgent need has evolved over a number of years, and many more of an appointment should not have to rely on the new homes and other facilities will be built there over Secretary of State, local newspapers or their constituency the next 10 years, but it was begun with no plans MP to raise their case and sort appointments out. It whatsoever for additional health care services. That shows how serious this case was that, shortly after her issue needs to be addressed in the long run, and I hope scan and check-up, Bethanie was admitted to hospital that the Minister can help my town council, along with and she was only able to return home two months later, our district and county councils, to work with the PCT at the end of January. Her mother has effectively become and the forthcoming GP consortia to develop additional her full-time carer and her family have had to battle at local services that seek to meet local needs. The issue is every single stage for care, appointments and treatment, one of supply and demand, and there is a crying need which is appalling. I must say that, if Bethanie had but no provision. received the appointment that she needed straight away, As a starting point, the town council, to its credit, is she would probably be in a better state of health today. working cross-party locally with all our councillors, and The Minister will appreciate that this has been terribly has put together a list of services that Witham needs, distressing for Bethanie and her family. including an additional surgery, an out-of-hours walk-in When the NHS was pressed about this case, the only clinic, minor injury, oncology and out-patient clinics explanation given for the delays was something described and a diversity of medical-testing facilities. By adding as a “broken pathway”. I have no idea what a “broken some of those services to Witham and the surrounding pathway” is in NHS management talk, but the case has communities, we will naturally see real benefits in the highlighted just how damaging poor performance and form of health care provision, choice and diversity, and failures in NHS services can be to individuals. This girl’s we will enjoy the convenience of more local NHS life has changed beyond all recognition now. This case services. also demonstrates what can go wrong when there are I am conscious that I have spoken for a considerable endless layers of bureaucracy in the NHS; it was unclear time and that many other Members wish to speak, so I throughout whether it was Bethanie’s GP, the PCT or shall conclude by saying that although I could raise the hospital services who were actually responsible for many more health-related issues, I hope that I have ensuring that Bethanie received the care that she needed. given the Minister a real insight into the challenges that There was to-ing and fro-ing constantly—there really we face in Mid Essex, where we are surrounded by a lot was. of health activity but have had this bureaucracy that Like all Conservatives, at the last general election I has stifled both the delivery of front-line care to patients, was absolutely proud to stand on a manifesto commitment and the choice aspect of health care provision locally. I to cut the waste and bureaucracy in the NHS, so that we thank the Minister and colleagues for their patience in could invest in the front-line services and give more listening to my remarks, and I look forward to the powers to doctors and patients. I want to reiterate that Minister’s response. in my short tenure—10 months—as a Member of Parliament, all I have seen are examples of how bureaucracy has got in the way. If nothing else, I will continue to 11.32 am battle to get the services for my constituents, in the face Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): I congratulate of adversity—that is, in the face of bureaucracy. my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on I welcome the measures that have been announced by securing this debate, and particularly on how she has the Government about the reforms and plans for the raised concerns on behalf of her constituents. Witham NHS. The purpose of mentioning these cases now is to is very fortunate to have her as its representative. highlight the fact that in Essex we have seen more of the I served on the Health Committee for a decade; in non-medical side of the NHS in action locally than we fact, I was on it for so long that towards the end of that have of the medical side, which shows the need for time we were repeating inquiries. We travelled to a reform of patients’ treatment. number of countries and when we returned home, we Finally, I want to draw attention to the fact that there always concluded that our health service was the best in is some hope for my constituents. That is the hope that the world. We did wonder, however, how on earth we they have placed in Government legislation to reform would fund the service if we were starting it from the NHS. As the Minister will recall from Health questions scratch. 33WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 34WH

Since I first became involved in health matters, the In Essex, commissioning with the independent voluntary needs and demands of the health service have changed and community sectors is going extremely well, as is the dramatically. I am in a very good position to comment scrutiny of health functions. As the changes—some of on such matters because when Ann Widdecombe was which are controversial and challenging—go through, shadow Secretary of State for Health I was one of her will the Minister reflect on how our hospitals are managed? troops, serving on the Committee on the Bill that brought That is so important. In my previous constituency the into force primary care groups and primary care trusts. fullest age profile was for young people and in my Although the right hon. Member for one of the present one we have the most centenarians in the country, Southampton constituencies got slightly irritated with so the challenges are very different in different places. my endless questioning and long speeches, if anyone is I want to raise a number of quick points. I will not very sad and wants to read Hansard I recommend the cause the Minister angst, but she will be aware that speeches that I made then because everything that I there is an issue locally with the Essex Cancer Network forecast would happen, sadly, has happened. It has and the proposal for an increase from seven to 10 linear taken the present Government to reverse what happened accelerators. I hope that any increase is in Southend, 13 years ago. and that we do not look further afield. The Minister I am very familiar with four hospitals: Newham would expect me to say that, and I do not want to put General, the King George in Ilford, Basildon and Southend. her in a difficult position. I will not share my views of my experiences at those For the past nine months, all health and social care hospitals, because I was there not just as a politician but partners and representatives of patients, carers and care as a user, along with my family. I shall simply say that homes have been working in a formally governed the experiences were very different from one another, partnership to deliver an innovative and integrated model and they are ongoing. of care for the elderly locally. Will my hon. Friend the Let there be no doubt that I agree with everything Minister look at how we are dealing with that? Over the that my hon. Friend the Member for Witham said. I past year, partners have worked together to open a new have to be slightly partisan; I have to tell my hon. “step up” intermediate care facility on the Southend Friends who were elected last year that I feel very hospital site. I wish that many years ago, managers had strongly that during the 13 years of Labour Government considered more carefully when deciding to close Rochford the word “deprivation” was not on the register at all for hospital. Unlike Basildon hospital, which has plenty of the south of England. There is no doubt that resources land around it, Southend hospital is landlocked and has shifted from the south to the north. All I say to the nowhere to expand, and we are paying the price. Minister, who has a wonderful background, is that I Demand for care of the elderly is increasing, and I hope we will now be treated fairly. I am confident that am not entirely convinced that we have a solution at the that will happen. moment. Children’s services in south-east Essex are I am more concerned now about management generally, doing well. We have been recognised as baby-friendly by particularly that of our hospitals. Why is a school UNICEF and have received a certificate of commitment. considered good? Because it has leadership from an We are launching a new service for children and young excellent head. Why are transport facilities good? Again, people with disabilities and we are opening a new because there is good leadership. Why is a country diabetes rehabilitation suite. Southend hospital has secured successful? It is because of a great Prime Minister. I am a patient safety award. Many good things are happening. challenged on a number of fronts by leadership in our GPs are being asked to deliver health care reforms. hospitals. I will not go on about matrons, but when When Bernard Ribeiro, who has now been made a peer people are anxious and have health problems, with of the realm, was the lead consultant at Basildon, it was which they need to go to A and E for example, they clear where the leadership of consultants was. I am want to know who is in charge. It is not rocket science. puzzled to know who leads groups now. Endless meetings Nor is cleanliness and all the rest of it. Leadership is so are held, but we need ownership and someone to take important, and I do not care if a leader is seen as a responsibility for what happens when a patient arrives bossy boots, like Hattie Jacques. I am fed up with at hospital. Who sees them first? When they go to managers who have endless meetings. What are they accident and emergency, are they seen quickly by triage? meeting about? As MPs, we have to take full responsibility Who deals with their case afterwards? for how we represent our constituencies, and if something We have many wonderful GPs in Southend— is not right it is down to a hospital’s chief executive—it Dr Husselbee, Dr Pelta, Dr Lawrence Singer, the Zaidis; is no good their blaming the troops. the list is endless—and they are all working hard to My hon. Friend the Member for Witham touched on deliver what the Government want. I believe that my some matters concerning Essex, for example the constituency has the only GP pathfinder consortium in demographic pressures and shifts. The council and the south-east Essex, and it has one of only seven partnerships NHS have developed, and are continuing to develop, in the east of England announced during the first wave. joint commissioning arrangements there. That is very The group covers a population of nearly 80,000 patients, good. In Essex, we are working hard to implement the mainly in the west of Southend. White Paper, and are progressing well with putting into The practices have been working well together for the practice the Government’s flagship reforms. The Secretary past three years and have managed to set up out-of-hospital of State has been criticised in some areas for rushing the ear, nose and throat, gynaecology and urology services, reforms, but in my time in the House I cannot remember which give rapid access to specialist care at less cost to a shadow Secretary of State who was in post for as long the NHS than at present. The group has implemented a as my right hon. Friend was, so he had a lot of time to clinical gateway that enhances GP referrals, reduces think about the reforms. This is the only job that he waste and ensures that patients get to the right specialist wanted, so the idea that he is rushing is wrong. first time, which is critical to reducing the amount of 35WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 36WH

[Mr David Amess] the Princess Alexandra hospital. Addressing them is not just about health and a stronger work force; to me, money spent and the stress caused to patients waiting it is also about social justice. for referrals. Practices co-operate closely, with patients I have three points. First, we suffer from significant attending other surgeries for minor surgical procedures. health inequalities, as I said. Secondly, Harlow has a As a result of such close working for the past three good hospital; it has its problems, but I strongly support years, the group is moving forward and seeking to its bid for foundation status. Thirdly, we have a history become a sub-committee of the primary care trust, of funding problems, particularly in west Essex—I am which will not exist within 18 months, and to take glad to move from north Essex to west Essex—and they greater control of the budgets delegated to it by the must be addressed. PCT. The group has ambitious plans to improve care On health inequalities, sadly, more men die from for the elderly, which I salute, as well as the health of alcohol-related causes in Harlow than in any other patients with long-term conditions. district in Essex. The latest statistics show that there are When local authority work begins, close working 45 such deaths in Harlow every year, double the rate in relationships will be vital to align the health and social nearby Uttlesford and about 50% more than the east of care budgets to enable—colleagues might be puzzled by England average of 30 a year. I accept that Harlow is a this phrase—more integrated working. That will be major town, but families there are struggling with a better for patients and lead to greater efficiencies. Similar particular problem, and the rate is higher than in similar joint working is happening between community and towns in Essex such as Colchester and Basildon. Harlow mental health programmes. The Health and Social Care also experiences some of the worst rates of child and Bill clearly puts patients at the centre of the NHS. This adult obesity in Essex. Government statistics show that is controversial, but when budgets are stretched it is one in five 11-year-olds in Harlow is obese before vital that the public are part of the process for deciding leaving primary school. Some 55% of 15-year-olds in how the commissioning budget will be spent. We must Essex drink alcohol, 19% are regular smokers and 13% use take people with us if they are to accept that resources drugs, but the problem is particularly acute in Harlow. are scarce. The rate of adult drug abuse in Essex is 4.8 per 1,000, I am delighted to say that our local group has a grant but in Harlow it is nearly double, at 8.3 per 1,000. from the Department of Health to define what public I do not want to paint a negative picture of Harlow. I involvement should look like. A successful meeting was am proud of my town and constituency. There is some held recently involving a wide range of stakeholders—that good news. Local faith and charitable groups are aware awful word—including patient voluntary organisations, of the challenges and are responding to them. The special interest groups and representatives from the organisation Open Road runs an SOS bus and does local involvement network, Southend and Essex hospitals other anti-drug work, helping people access advice, and the community. It is expected from the initial information, support and more formal treatment if meeting that an agreement will be reached on how the needed. Some other remarkable drug rehab charities do public can best be involved, both at strategic level and in essential work behind the scenes. There are many walking making decisions about specific projects. One possible groups, and I have been to a number of events organised outcome involves forming a group of health champions by the Harlow Athletics Club, which is one of the most who have received training on commissioned health distinguished groups in the region. Projects such as services. Kickz work with young people, providing football, boxing I will not take up any more of the House’s time, as it and other fitness pursuits. is not fair to the colleagues who are waiting to catch In that context, Princess Alexandra hospital has had your eye, Mr Dobbin, but I say to my hon. Friend the problems, but hopefully it will become a foundation Minister that it would be good for the Department of hospital. With a new chairman and chief executive, the Health to take seriously any representations made by hospital is making a strong bid for foundation status, hon. Members for the great county of Essex. which I support. I have found the chairman of the hospital, Mr Coteman, to be open, honest and straight- talking about the difficulties that we face in Harlow. He 11.45 am is also dedicated. On Christmas day, I visited the hospital Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I, too, congratulate wards with Harlow hospital radio and was astonished my almost-neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for to see not only that the chairman was going around Witham (Priti Patel). She made an incredibly powerful visiting patients, but that he had brought his whole case about the individual against the state and the family with him after travelling from Cambridge for the powerlessness that people feel against state agencies, day. That shows a lot of commitment to the hospital. which is why we need to return power to the people. I It is not just Mr Coteman. I visited the cancer ward at thank her for securing this important debate. I am sorry Addison House with Robert Duncombe. The ward is that my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West very well run. We have talked a lot about waste and (Mr Amess) has been to all the hospitals in Essex apart bureaucracy, and of course, we have those problems, from Princess Alexandra hospital in Harlow. I strongly but it is a completely different story at Addison House, recommend it; it is a good place. where five staff share a small office, and when I say As has been mentioned, Essex is a large county, with small, I mean really small. five primary care trusts and more than 1.4 million The Princess Alexandra hospital is at the cutting edge people, which is roughly the same population as Northern of research, with its cellular pathology laboratories, for Ireland’s. Some variation in such a large area is natural, which I hope NHS support will continue. Having visited but sadly, my constituency contains serious health the laboratories, I know that the genius of their people inequalities, despite the best efforts of local staff and and their technology is remarkable and bests anything 37WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 38WH in the private sector. However, the difficult environment some parts of my constituency that our health reforms means that the Princess Alexandra hospital needs the will be monopolised by vast health conglomerates. I very foundation status for which it has applied in order to much hope that we see more co-operatives. I understand take its work to the next level. that the PCT in Kingston has become a co-operative. If I want to touch upon the history of the funding that is the case, I hope that it will be a model that other problems in west Essex, which are all the more serious PCTs and GP commissioning bodies can follow. given the health inequalities that I have described. Under I have always said that the big society will only work the previous Government, West Essex primary care if we build the little society, too. We must bring real trust struggled with the 20th worst deficit in the UK, localism to our NHS. We have to give patients meaningful and the black hole for 2009-10 was nearly £2 million. I choice. Harlow struggled for years with top-down cuts welcome the coalition Government’s commitment to under the previous Government. For example, the North increase health spending in each year of this Parliament, Essex trust, which, as has been mentioned, supplies but it is a question not only of getting the right resources, mental health services, suffered a £5.3 million cut in but of spending the money wisely. 2007. When I was a parliamentary candidate, I found out, Finally, why is it that whenever the previous Labour via a freedom of information request, about a £700,000 Government cut our services in Harlow, it was presented cut in funds to the NHS walk-in centre in Harlow. as a fact of financial management, but whenever the Finances had been mismanaged, so much of the investment coalition Government are forced to cut spending, it is was wasted. There have been serious problems with seen as an ideological outrage? That double standard health management, as well as health inequalities, which must be addressed. I am glad that our NHS budget is we must address under the new ways of devolving guaranteed to rise in real terms every year in this purchasing power to GPs. I particularly welcome the Parliament, and hope sincerely that Harlow patients pledge to remove strategic health authorities, because and residents will get their fair share. I look forward to they seem to be a complete waste of resources and an the Minister’s forthcoming visit to Harlow to see for unnecessary tier of bureaucracy. That money would be herself the NHS in operation. much better ploughed into the work of nurses, doctors and health visitors on the front line. I think that the Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Before I call the final Health Secretary said at the Conservative conference speaker, I remind hon. Members that the wind-ups that managers have so far been cut by 2,000 and that normally start at 10 past 12. front-line staff have been increased by 2,700. I am sure that the Minister will want to clarify that. 11.56 am On NHS fuel and petrol allowances for workers, I Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): Thank you, was astonished to discover when I visited my mental Mr Dobbin. Like my hon. Friends, I should like to health trust that NHS mental health professionals who congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Witham use their cars all day for their work—this is not just (Priti Patel) on securing this debate and on giving an about commuting, but about visiting patients—get tiny articulate exposition of the inherent tension between fuel allowances, some just 12p a mile. I have tried to process and outcomes. I think that one thing that we are investigate the issue, but there seems to be a spaghetti all looking forward to from the Government’s health junction of authorities that decide what the rate is. It is reforms is a greater focus on achieving outcomes and unfair, when petrol is at £1.35 a litre, that their fuel rather less on the processes that she has outlined. allowances are so low. I urge that dedicated NHS This issue is of great importance to my constituents professionals who use their cars all day for their work in Thurrock. Frankly, considering recent years in particular, should get a decent fuel allowance. the performance of our local health services needs to be We must deal with the health inequalities in Harlow. better. I pay tribute to the staff involved in the care and To coin a phrase, we must be tough on health problems, treatment of patients—they discharge their efforts with but tough on the causes of health problems, too. Ultimately, the best of intentions and commitment—but, as my the evidence is that we need more early intervention and hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Mr Amess) preventive work, but the cause of many health problems has pointed out, what is often lacking in the health is social deprivation. It is jobs, a stronger economy, service is leadership. In south-west Essex in particular, higher employment, and opportunity for the many and poor management at a number of levels has resulted in not the few that will give us a healthier society, which is too many people being failed and in local people’s why I welcome the Government’s economic reform, confidence in the local health provision being too low. with lower taxes for lower earners and deficit reduction. We all need to work hard to improve that and give It is about not just pure utilitarianism, but social justice. people the health services they deserve. We must do more. We need more partnerships with I shall give some clear examples. My constituents rely grass-roots community groups, such as the local Harlow on services provided by Basildon hospital, and the branch of the Alzheimer’s Society and the Harlow primary care trust responsible for delivering them is athletic club, which I have mentioned. Hospitals should South West Essex PCT, which is currently implementing be the first, not the last resort, which is part of the a severe programme of cuts, following a significant problem that we face in the NHS today. To do that, overspend. I shall deal with the hospital first, but as resources must be directed towards prevention, and the hon. Members will realise from my remarks, the ongoing best people at prevention are the small community and issues at Basildon are interlinked with the overspend in faith groups already in our estates, working with people. the PCT.Dealing with that overspend will have implications When we open up NHS contracts, we must make it for the hospital, too, so there is a great deal of uncertainty easier for small charities and firms to bid for them, as among my constituents, and a serious lack of confidence well as the larger, “Tesco” charities. There is fear in in local health services at present. 39WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 40WH

[Jackie Doyle-Price] private finance initiative, so it will be an enduring cost to the NHS budget. It is a classic example of complete Basildon hospital has had a difficult recent history. In incompetence in managing the commissioning of a November 2009, the then Secretary of State, the right service. hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), made a statement A further reason for the overspend brings me back to in respect of Basildon hospital, following concerns about what has happened with Basildon hospital and the excessively high mortality rates there, which my hon. impact that that is having on the wider health provision Friend the Member for Southend West will remember in south Essex. As confidence in Basildon fell, patients extremely well. The then Secretary of State said: were desperate to be treated elsewhere, which meant “There is still considerable variation in standards throughout that the PCT had to buy services from other hospitals in the NHS, from one hospital to another, and in some cases the Essex, London and Kent. The hospital was faced with a variation is unacceptably wide. That is the case in respect of loss to its income because of the decline in demand, and Basildon and Thurrock University Hospitals NHS Foundation it dealt with that by routinely booking additional out-patient Trust.”—[Official Report, 30 November 2009; Vol. 501, c. 855.] appointments in the knowledge that the PCT would pick up the bill. Such a situation added to the financial [HYWEL WILLIAMS in the Chair] pressure. Since that time and despite various programmes to No one has been held to account for the PCT’s tackle poor performance at the hospital, my constituents overspend. Patients therefore perceive what has happened and I are concerned that such variation is unacceptably to be a direct result of the Government’s programme. I wide. The hospital management tell me that things are cannot emphasis enough that that is not the case. The improving, but my postbag tells a very different story. responsibility for that overspend rests firmly with the Although many constituents report excellent treatment PCT’s management. It is disappointing and bad for at the hands of the hospital, simply too many do not. public confidence that no one has taken responsibility. As I say, week in and week out, there are reports in the Unless someone is held accountable, how can we ensure local press of new things that have gone wrong. The that our constituents regain confidence in the system impact on my constituents is that they simply do not and trust what we say? When we say that we are have confidence in the hospital and they do not want to ring-fencing the NHS budget, that sounds pretty hollow be treated there. to my constituents. I pay tribute to Andrew Pike, the newly appointed chief executive of the PCT. He has It is true to say that there has been some improvement grasped the nettle and is making the necessary painful since 2009 but, returning to the then Secretary of State’s decisions to turn the situation around. The price of that statement, that has happened from a very low base. The is an accelerated programme of redundancies and carefully Care Quality Commission continues to find that there managed demand for services. That means patients are are serious deficiencies in patient care. Most recently, not getting seen as quickly as they would have done, the CQC’s February 2011 report states that of 16 measures and my constituents are not getting the same standard taken into account, four needed action and six received of service they would if they lived elsewhere. It also suggestions for improvement. Criticisms include a lack means that the new hospital planned for Grays is likely of consistent nursing care, a failure to check that equipment to be delayed as we fill the black hole, which will lead to is safe, the need for improvements to care for patients much disappointment locally. with dementia, and issues with poor nutrition and weight loss going unreported. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments on those issues. Too often, poor performance in the The hospital’s management are taking rather too NHS goes unchallenged. While ever-senior NHS managers much satisfaction from the improvements reported by continue to draw hefty salaries, the least we can expect the CQC. It does no one any good that the reputation of is that when things go wrong, someone steps up to the Basildon hospital remains so low. However, there is an plate and takes responsibility. It is galling for members opportunity to achieve real change. The current chairman of staff to receive redundancy notices when the people is due to depart and I hope that the Minister will take who are responsible for that overspend remain on the steps to ensure that the opportunity is taken to provide NHS payroll. I hope that the Minister will take action some decisive leadership to the board, so that the real to improve accountability among senior management challenge to improve performance can be dealt with. because that will go a long way towards rebuilding confidence. On the state of NHS South West Essex, many treatments have recently been cut by the PCT—including in vitro 12.5 pm fertilisation—and restrictions have been put on cataract operations. As a Government, we have promised to Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) protect the NHS budget from cuts and we have held to (Lab): The hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) is to our promise. However, in south-west Essex, people just be congratulated on obtaining the debate. Many of my do not believe us because they are faced with a cost-cutting constituents move to Essex as a kind of upward trajectory, programme to fix a black hole of some £50 million. so I listened with great interest to what she had to say How did the PCT get into such a mess? In the past two about a part of the world with which I am not as years, it has taken on 100 extra backroom staff. Those familiar as I probably should be. The week after the Lib people were not involved in front-line delivery; they Dems have turned savagely against the Conservative-led were working in the PCT headquarters. The PCT also coalition’s health care policies—the British Medical spent money building a community hospital in Brentwood Association is debating them today and, as we know, that is far bigger than required. When I visited that doctors are very worried about what is proposed—hon. hospital, I went around switching on lights in redundant Members will expect me to touch on the health reforms facilities. That service was commissioned under the generally and how they will affect the people of Essex. 41WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 42WH

I listened with some sympathy to the complaints of debate that at another time. To spend the money on art, the hon. Member for Witham about bureaucracy. As I when we know how ridiculously expensive PFI can be, have been a Member of Parliament for 20 years, I have seems quite strange. tangled with more bureaucrats than I care to remember. There have been all sorts of care warnings about However, I always like to stop short of sounding as if I hospitals in Essex, such as Queen’s hospital in Romford. am dismissing people who work for the health service as We know that the Romford project will be the first of a a whole. My mother was a nurse. She was one of that number of pilot reviews of PFI contracts to see if the generation of West Indian women who helped to build costs can be brought down, and anyone who cares the health service after the war. We have to remember about the health service must welcome that. We know that however frustrating it is as Members of Parliament that the Braintree community hospital has defended or even as members of the community to deal with itself after paying out nearly £20 million in damages for bureaucrats in the health service or elsewhere, there are clinical negligence. If we are focusing on bureaucracy, thousands and thousands of people without whom the we have to focus on how those things happen. We know health service could not work or function. They will tell that the Southend University Hospital NHS Foundation us that they have survived more reorganisations than Trust, with which hon. Members will be familiar, has they care to remember. They are still there, getting their had to respond to concerns about safety, which were heads down and trying to provide a service for our raised by the Care Quality Commission. We know that constituents. the West Essex primary care trust risks not being able to The hon. Member for Witham made an important give an 18-week referral-to-treatment time. We know point about the proportion of elderly people in our that NHS South West Essex has a very large overspend—its population. We do not have time to deal with that deficit has been improved, but it still has an overspend—in matter fully, but people are living longer and they are relation not to bureaucrats, but to acute hospital activity. suffering from ailments such as Alzheimer’s and other We also know, which I find alarming, that the Basildon things. Elderly people make up an increasing proportion and Thurrock University Hospitals NHS Foundation of the population. A few weeks ago, I went to a nursing Trust is now trying to make savings by allowing waiting conference and a senior nurse said to me that, when she lists to extend. That implies a 14-week wait on first was on the wards, the mean age of elderly patients was appointment, which is why an hon. Member on the about 80. The mean age of elderly patients is now 90 or Government side said that, when ordinary residents 100. Elderly people now pose very different problems and voters are told that money on the health service is from those that the elderly posed a few years ago. It is being ring-fenced, it rings rather hollow. Up and down important that we consider the question of how we the country, not just in Essex, they can see waiting times secure high-quality care—I am reminded of that awful lengthening, and new hospitals and new health care ombudsman report that was published a few weeks facilities that have been promised being delayed. It is for ago—how we pay for it and how health care interconnects the Government, who have made much of their protection with the issues of public health and social care. I hope of health care spending, to explain that. The real issue is that we will have a chance to return to those matters. this. The hon. Member for Witham spoke glowingly I remind the hon. Lady that, despite her letters to about the reforms, but sadly I have news for her. She bureaucrats and her undoubted frustrations on behalf seems to believe that those reforms will help with the of her constituents, when my party left office, satisfaction issues that she has raised. As she would know, however, with the health service was the highest it has ever been. if she had followed the Health Committee, there is a Hon. Members can say that the population was deluded real challenge involved in trying to introduce those on that, but I do not think that that is correct. We are reforms, whatever we think of them, while at the same talking about massive MORI polls. People’s satisfaction trying to achieve unprecedented savings in health care. was higher than ever. There had also been massive levels The Health Committee doubts whether that can be of investment, not least in Essex. She will be aware of done. the new unit at Colchester general hospital, which includes No one argues with the notion that GPs could have a an updated children’s ward. It is fully open and operational, lot to offer in the commissioning of care, but as the and that £20 million project marks the biggest investment president of the Royal College of General Practitioners in the hospital’s facilities since it opened in 1985. has said, there are other ways to do that without subjecting the health service to a top-down reorganisation. I do Apart from general frustration with bureaucracy, there not want to be unpleasant, but the Government promised, are specific issues in relation to health care in Essex that all through their time in opposition, that they would are worth mentioning in this short debate. The hon. not subject the health service to any top-down Lady mentioned Broomfield hospital. She will be aware reorganisations. that, just a few weeks ago, it was highlighted that although the hospital takes more than £1 million a year in car parking charges, its car parks still lose money Priti Patel: Will the hon. Lady give way? because it is spending £1.2 million on running costs, including on CCTV,attendants and capital investment— Ms Abbott: Time is against me, because I want to give they must be extremely well paid attendants. We also the Minister plenty of time to respond. That is what we know that the hospital’s move into its £148 million PFI were promised—no more top-down reorganisations. As wing was delayed twice before finally opening in late for waste of money, one problem with letting all those 2010. The opening day was pushed back because staff PCT bureaucrats go is that they have to be paid redundancy. were trapped in faulty lifts. We also know that the same The hon. Lady said that she hopes that they will not be hospital spent £400,000 on art for its new wing, which paid big redundancy packages. I am afraid that they was commissioned as part of the development and will be, and many will be re-employed. GPs will be less funded through PFI. PFI is expensive enough—we may accountable to patients and the danger that many people, 43WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 44WH

[Ms Abbott] professionals the freedom to innovate and make decisions based on their clinical judgment and the needs of their including GPs, see is that the big American health patients, rather than centrally dictated, process-driven maintenance organisations will be able to get inside and targets that have dogged the NHS in the past 13 years. act as commissioners for GPs, who, after all, joined the Responsibility for budgets and commissioning care health service to heal and not to be managers. will transfer from bureaucrats to consortia of clinicians, I feel sorry for Government Back Benchers. They so that we can drive up the very highest standards of believe that the issues that they find so challenging health care and achieve the highest outcomes that are about bureaucracy, cuts and patient accountability will specific to local communities. My hon. Friend the Member be solved by the reorganisation. I can say with complete for Harlow (Robert Halfon) raised the issue of inequalities confidence that, if anything, the reorganisation, which in health. It is critical to have outcomes that are consistent is too fast and at the wrong time, will make those for everybody, not just a few, and a much simplified problems worse. It gives me no pleasure to say that, but system—without two layers of management, the strategic anyone who has analysed the so-called reforms can see health authorities and PCTs—which is, actually, reorganised that they are a car crash in slow motion. in a way that is less top-down and more bottom-up. Why are we doing that now? Now is the time to do that, because now is the time that we are determined to drive 12.14 pm down the overall administrative costs to the NHS, and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health achieve a better dialogue and partnerships with health (Anne Milton): It is a pleasure to serve under your and care professionals in all sectors. chairmanship, Mr Williams. I do not believe that I have Pathfinder consortia are now in place across all five had the pleasure before. I congratulate my hon. Friend Essex PCTs, involving a total of 146 practices and the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) on securing the serving a population of almost a million people. The debate. The fact that she has attracted so many of her Essex commissioning consortia pathfinder in the area fellow Essex MPs is a testament to the importance of of my hon. Friend the Member for Witham consists of the issue. The health services in any MP’s constituency seven practices and serves a population of 70,000—debates are always of major concern and it is fantastic to have are often an opportunity to demonstrate that we know an opportunity to raise some of those issues in the all about the figures. I understand that the Witham Chamber. practices are in negotiations about forming a mid-Essex I must add to the comments made about the staff in consortium. the NHS. The staff in Witham, and across Essex, should My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West be congratulated on their work. I trained as a nurse, like (Mr Amess) raised a point on funding. As part of our the mother of the hon. Member for Hackney North desire to improve the standard of NHS care up and and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott), and worked in the down the country, we are consistently increasing the NHS for 25 years. I understand, therefore, some of the amount of money that we provide. Total revenue investment complexities of their job, and their dedication and in the NHS in 2011-12 will grow to more than £102 billion expertise in driving benefits for my hon. Friend’s constituents a year. The allocations announced on 15 December will on a daily basis is valued greatly. As a Government, we provide PCTs with £89 billion to spend on the local want to ensure that we support all staff and give them front-line services that matter most—that is an overall the framework to provide the highest standards of care increase of £2.6 billion, or 3%. Of that, Essex will for everybody they treat. receive £519.6 million, which is a cash increase of Before I go further, the hon. Member for Hackney 3.2% above the national average. From 2013-14, the North and Stoke Newington need not feel sorry for NHS commissioning board will allocate the majority of Government Back Benchers at all. She does them a NHS resources to consortia, and funding will be arranged disservice by suggesting that they do not see the reforms so that every area gets its fair allocation, based on the for what they are. They are an opportunity, for the first burden of disease and disability, which, again, is a point time, to bring patients and their clinicians closer together that my hon. Friend raised. Details of that will be in shaping the services that they need. She is right to say announced shortly. that the previous Government put untold investment My hon. Friend the Member for Witham discussed into the NHS. Spending on health doubled, if not more, population growth and demographics, and the pressures in the time that they were in government. It is important that they will bring to bear. I am pleased that the county to realise, however, that just chucking money at services council is taking a proactive approach—that is the thing does not mean that they will get better—we need to to do—to get ahead of the game and make improvements have value for money. Taxpayers expect and deserve to public health. With an aging population, it is critical that, and for every pound of taxpayers’ money that goes that people stay healthier for longer. in, £1-worth of services needs to come out at the other On redundancy and staff, there is, in fact, a great deal end, and that is central to the debate. of natural wastage in the NHS already, and there are We have set out proposals to free the NHS from schemes such as the mutually agreed resignation scheme, bureaucracy and central control. My hon. Friend the which is intended to help the process. To some extent, Member for Witham eloquently set out her concerns, as redundancy is dictated by legislation and locally agreed did a number of other hon. Members, about those terms and conditions of service. Some good staff will levels of bureaucracy and about her constituents receiving move on to assist the consortia. the health care that they need, with the choices that they The clusters that my hon. Friend spoke about are an want and with the highest standards that they deserve. important part of the transition, gradually moving Like all members of the public, we want to end the upwards through the PCT organisation. The new consortia overbearing top-down oppression and give front-line come in at the bottom. I suggest that she arrange 45WH NHS (Essex)15 MARCH 2011 NHS (Essex) 46WH monthly meetings with the PCT because, clearly, there of social justice. For instance, it is outrageous that in are many issues that she wants to raise, in particular Westminster there is a 17-year difference in mortality: individual cases. She discussed the problems of Mr Shipton people born in some parts of Westminster may live and Mr Cross not receiving Sativex. Of course, that will 17 years less than those born elsewhere in the borough—that change when we have consortia, and clinicians make is truly shocking. commissioning decisions. That will change things, and My hon. Friend raised the issues of alcohol-related it will increase the opportunities for patients and their deaths and obesity, and discussed the fantastic work families to affect decisions. done by many local organisations. Again, health and My hon. Friend spoke about the case of Mrs Wetherilt, well-being boards will be an opportunity to put public which sounds absolutely dreadful—no one should have health right at the heart of local authorities, which have to battle away like that—and she has raised the case of a long and proud history of improvements in public Bethanie on several occasions with the PCT. I do not health and bringing together all the organisations that know the details of it, and, as she recognises, I cannot do so much. intervene, but it is important that systems work for people who have complex needs or diagnoses. It is My hon. Friend was also right to say that there is critical that we get that right. tremendous social capital in our communities. In my travels around the country—I try to get out a lot, for On that point, I know that my hon. Friend the fear someone might say that I do not get out enough—I Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) would have liked have been fascinated to find in some of the most deprived to mention the new community hospital in Braintree. It areas the greatest social capital, innovation and response is a good example of a community hospital that serves from local communities to do something about their the local community, which is what people want. I know problems. They want a way out of poor health outcomes that he campaigned long before the present Parliament and the crime in their area, and their resourcefulness is on getting the right services for pregnant women who outstanding. need maternity care. My hon. Friend the Member for Southend West has a My hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie long and distinguished career on the Health Committee. Doyle-Price) discussed variations between Thurrock and I could say that I learned everything I know at his knee. Basildon. She was right to say that they are completely Having sat on the relevant Bill Committee, his frustration unacceptable. We cannot interfere from the centre with over the formation of the PCTs must at times be unbearable. appointments, but she was right to reiterate the need for Being a prophet of the unwelcome consequences of first-class leadership, and it was good to hear her positive legislation is not necessarily any comfort, albeit it is to comments about the new chief executive. The organisations his credit. His comments about leadership are so important, around the country that do well have good leadership, and it is not just clinical leadership but leadership and it is not about driving a coach and horses through across the board. Something that does not often get a something, which is what I fear the previous Government mention is political leadership. Politicians and people in tried to do. They tried to dictate from the centre and tell government have to be clear, when they are talking people what to do. Actually, what good leaders need is about health services, that nothing but the highest standards inspiration and enthusiasm. They need to gather people and quality of care will do. We have to keep saying that up along the way and have a clear vision of what and be unrepentant about doing so. What the Government everyone is working towards. Such skills are hard to can do is set the right framework and outcomes. We get define, but we recognise them when we see them. I hope what we ask for, and if we ask people to wait more than that Essex will get the leadership that it clearly deserves, four hours in accident and emergency, that is what we and for which all Members of Parliament in that area will get. Whether or not that is measured does not have been fighting. necessarily determine whether anyone gets better. Therefore, I agree 100% with my hon. Friend on getting the Government have to be clear about exactly what accountability right. As a constituency MP who has a they want, and not chase headlines. PCT with one of the worst financial records in the Linear accelerators: does not everyone want one? country, I know that, sadly, it is the public who suffer as Everyone would like a linear accelerator. However, my a result of poor management. We are determined to get hon. Friend the Member for Southend West is right in accountability right. Again, that comes to setting the saying that we have to take the public with us when we right outcomes. make such decisions. “Consultation process”is a hackneyed I believe that GP consortia, health and well-being phrase now. I do not think that anyone has much boards and public health in local authorities will result confidence in consultation processes. What we have to in the kind of joined-up planning that all Essex Members do, and what I feel we will be able to do through the want, and that we will see the improvements in health health and well-being boards and the involvement of care services and public health that we want. I have local authorities, is get a real and democratic voice for outlined some of the ways in which we intend to transform local people. I share my hon. Friend’s dislike of the the delivery of services and ensure that, in the transition term “stakeholder”. We are taxpayers; it is our money. from the old system to the next one, we get a patient My hon. Friend the Member for Harlow discussed voice that is loud and clear, and that patients get the inequalities, and was right to say that they are a matter services and the care that they need and deserve. 47WH 15 MARCH 2011 Richard Lee Primary School 48WH

Richard Lee Primary School A burst water heater resulted in reception children being taught in the corridor for more than six weeks while attempts were made to dry out the classrooms and 12.30 pm lay new flooring. The children returned to their classrooms in February, after the half-term break, but sadly the Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab): new flooring is already beginning to lift because of Thank you for calling me, Mr Williams, and for presiding damp and will have to be removed again during the over this debate. The Richard Lee primary school in my Easter break. I hope that this time it will be refloored constituency is a 1950s Hills-system-built school. It is satisfactorily. built of reinforced concrete and high-alumina cement, The education welfare officer, who monitors attendance and it has simply come to the end of its design life. Its weekly, is worried about the number of absences through rebuilding was repeatedly delayed because of needs illness. With 4.5% of pupils absent, she believes that arising from rising rolls in Coventry and demand for those genuine absences are due in part to the cold, new-build schools, but it was due to be rebuilt in 2009. damp conditions that the children must endure in many As a result of the collapse of another school in Coventry, of the classrooms. The school does not comply with that rebuild was further delayed. disability discrimination legislation. It has seven flights The devolved capital budget for the Richard Lee of stairs inside and four outside. They cannot, without primary school last year was £49,150, £40,000 of which huge expense, be adapted with ramps or lifts because of was spent on essential repairs and maintenance, leaving the nature of the building. practically nothing for any development within the The council is so worried about the state of the school, any enhancements or any improvements. This school that, in May last year, it commissioned a technical year, that devolved capital money has been reduced to report to see what needed to be done, whether the £9,439. The main problem with the Richard Lee school, school was safe, and what the options were for keeping according to the head teacher, is that it badly needs a the school open and viable. A technical report by Martech new roof. It simply cannot be patched any more. There Technical Services Ltd said that for the time being are patches on patches, it is coming apart, and water is the school is safe, despite evidence of carbonisation of ingressing the school in many places. Even if a new roof the cement, and therefore the beginning of corrosion were possible with the school’s construction, it would of the steel reinforcement of the concrete structure, and cost in the order of £500,000. that it could have its life extended for 10 years, but that The school needs a new boiler, and has had to close the costs would be considerable. A simple 10-year extension twice in recent months because the boiler has failed, but of the school’s life would require concrete repair costing the cost would be £40,000. The windows, which form about £20,000, corrosion inhibitor costing about £40,000, entire walls in many of the classrooms, are being pulled anti-carbonisation coatings costing about £30,000, a apart by the strains on an ageing building. As a result, new roof, which the head put at £500,000 and Martech they are draughty, cannot be secured, and are sometimes put at £450,000, and preliminaries costing about £90,000. sealed with curtains and pieces of cloth to make the It gave no figures for contingencies such as removal and classroom environment something like bearable. A quote replacement of ceilings, asbestos removal, access and for replacement windows is of the order of £110,000. internal redecoration. I put those figures to the Minister Six toilet blocks are in need of refurbishment at a in the light of the school’s capital programme of £9,439 cost of £7,000 a block. There are awful smells and a year. regular flooding from blockages. Despite £15,000 being As I was going through what I would read out from spent to sort out the drains, that did not solve the the report, I was worried that the Minister would think problem in its entirety, and on one occasion sewage that I am exaggerating the difficulties, so would he be flowed freely across the school car park. There is rising prepared to visit the school? I have been in politics for a damp in classrooms. They are being recarpeted and long time, and I am rarely surprised by what I see. retiled regularly, but children cannot sit on the floor for Nevertheless, a visit to this school is shocking. It is a story times or anything else without sitting in wet. good school and its recent Ofsted report—received only There is a lot of asbestos throughout the school, and yesterday—stated that there have been considerable although it is safe in its undisturbed state, the cost of improvements, that the school is well led with an engaged any repairs is considerably higher than it would otherwise and supportive governing body and that the teaching be. Because capital funding is being spent on repairs staff have made significant efforts to improve the output and maintenance, second-hand furniture is regularly of the school. Ofsted is not obliged or encouraged to bought from other schools that manage to obtain new talk about school buildings, as that is not part of its job. equipment through their budgets. In this case, however, the Ofsted report did comment on The Minister and the Government claim to be interested the state of the building and the impact that that was in the big society and believe that organisations other having on the school. than the Government should make a contribution to What on earth is the school to do with £9,400? The the maintenance of services that people need. The school council is desperate to include a rebuild of the school in is pretty good at tapping into local organisations and its capital programme, but the uncertainty about that scrounging money. Local firms, such as E.ON, Jaguar programme, and the diminished resources that it has for Land Rover, the Prince’s Trust and local church groups, the whole school estate in Coventry means that it is have all helped by painting and decorating parts of the worried about committing to technical appraisals and inside and outside of the school. When I visited it the architectural work that would be needed. It does not recently, there was evidence in two separate classrooms know whether the rebuild money is likely to be forthcoming of teachers painting the walls having bought paint to in the near future, and such technical work would take a decorate their own homes. big slice of the Coventry capital programme. I would 49WH Richard Lee Primary School15 MARCH 2011 Richard Lee Primary School 50WH like the council to go ahead with the necessary preliminary As the right hon. Member for Coventry North East planning work so that the school can be rebuilt at the knows, improving provision is a priority that the earliest opportunity. I do not believe that extending the Government share. Even in times of austerity, we are life of the school is in any way viable, but the council determined to make this country’s education system needs reassurance about its future capital programme among the best in the world by ensuring that schools before it makes a considerable outlay at the expense of prepare every pupil for success. I congratulate Richard other school needs in the city. Lee primary school on the comments it received in the I do not know whether the Minister can provide any recent Ofsted report. The dedication of the teaching comfort with regard to plans for the future. The Secretary staff and those signs of improvement are doubly to be of State talked about the varying needs of primary congratulated because of the challenging physical schools, perhaps as part of moves to excuse his decisions circumstances involved. on the Building Schools for the Future programme. He Our ambition is based on the simple but profoundly said that there were other needs, and that it was not important principles of giving teachers and heads greater only about secondary schools. Having reached this situation, freedom, giving parents greater choice, providing higher however, there is no alternative for Richard Lee primary standards for pupils, and reducing the amount of red school other than a total rebuild, even though, as the tape in the system. We have taken steps to achieve those Minister knows, that will be expensive and in the order aims. The academies programme has been expanded, of £8 million. and we are now looking at the national curriculum with the intention of restoring it to its intended purpose—a If the Minister believes that I am in some way minimum core entitlement beyond which teachers can exaggerating the difficulties faced by the school, I ask tailor their tuition to meet the particular needs of him to come and have a look. I am sure that he will be pupils. By February 2011, the Department for Education as shocked as I was by the state of the school buildings. had received 323 proposals to set up free schools, and If he cannot find time to visit, perhaps he would be that initiative is progressing. Through such changes, prepared to meet a delegation so that some of the each local area will have a good mix of provision, and dedicated governors and teaching staff can meet him, parents will have real choices for their children. and he can see in detail some of the things that I have seen. Most of all, may we have clarity about future As the right hon. Gentleman persuasively argues, funding programmes so that the council can make a school buildings, teaching staff and pupils need to be a commitment to what is needed? Even if we have a continuing part of the investment, and the coalition programme now, it will be 2013-14 at the earliest before Government are committed to ensuring that that remains a new school can be provided. the case. However, we are faced with exceptionally tough circumstances. The appalling economic and financial Having got through this winter, I frankly do not inheritance left by the previous Government, of whom know how the school will get through next winter, and I the right hon. Gentleman was a member, is one of those am certain that it will not be able to do so with a capital obstacles. The amount that the Government currently programme of £9,000. The degree of patching and spend on debt interest payments could be used to rebuild mending evident at the end of this winter is far more or refurbish about 20 primary schools such as Robert than the school’s resources can cope with. Good people Lee every day. We urgently need to reduce the deficit, are providing a good education to children in my and the previous Government knew that. They had constituency, but they are being undermined by the already set a target of a 50% reduction in Government appalling state of the buildings in which they are asked infrastructure expenditure by 2014-15, but they failed to work. to admit that an impact on school building would be inevitable after such a reduction. Although I recognise the parlous state the school is in, it is not something that 12.44 pm happened over the past nine or 10 months. The situation The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education has been in decline for some time, and there were (Tim Loughton): I congratulate the right hon. Member opportunities to address it in the past. for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth) on securing The underlying financial position was not the only this debate and on raising an issue of concern in his element that the previous Government chose to ignore. constituency. I do not know whether this is the first time Since four-year-olds are too heavy for storks to transport, he has secured a debate in this Chamber, free from the there is generally four years’ notice of a child’s need for constraints of being a Minister; I know how frustrating a primary school place. A small part of the pressure on it can be as a Minister that one does not get the places arises from migration and immigration, but the opportunity to air important constituency matters. However, birth rate has been rising since 2002, levelling off for a the right hon. Gentleman has certainly aired one such couple of years from 2007. matter today very graphically, and I appreciate the Two years ago, Members of the then Opposition concern that must be felt by him, by parents and by highlighted the increasing need for primary school places teachers regarding the state of the school that he described. in a debate in this Chamber. On 3 March 2009, my hon. The Minister responsible for schools, my hon. Friend Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton now the Minister responsible for employment relations, (Mr Gibb) is unfortunately detained with Committee consumer and postal affairs, led a debate on the need work today, but I will pass on the request for him to for primary school places in London. My hon. Friend visit that school if he is in Coventry, or to meet a the Member for Bognor Regis, now the schools Minister, delegation. I know that he has campaigned on behalf of and my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central schools in the past, and that he is a strong advocate for (Sarah Teather), now the Minister responsible for children, improving provision for all pupils, teachers and parents. also took part. All speakers underlined the need for 51WH Richard Lee Primary School15 MARCH 2011 Richard Lee Primary School 52WH

[Tim Loughton] 2012-13 to 2014-15. The allocation forms part of a national allocation for Department for Education capital action to ensure that there are enough school places for of £15.8 billion during the four years from April this the children who need them, and although the debate year to March 2015. To put that in perspective, the focused on London, the issue has spread beyond the figure for 2014-15 is 60% below the historic high of capital. 2010-11, but the average annual capital budget during Making sure that there are enough places in schools the four-year period will be much higher than the is fundamental; it is the most basic need of the school average annual capital budget in the 1997-98 to 2004-05 system. Nevertheless, the Government of the day chose period. not to treat the matter with the seriousness it required. Within the allocations, basic need and maintenance Instead of tackling the need to which my hon. Friends are the areas to which we are giving priority. For 2011-12, drew attention, the Government proceeded with their the grant to Coventry for new pupil places is £6.5 million unaffordable and inefficient Building Schools for the and the maintenance allocations come to £5.8 million. Future programme, announcing the entry of new authorities It is now up to Coventry city council to decide its to that programme on 15 July 2009, and last year on priorities for the available funding, having regard to the 8 March and 5 April, just before the general election. building needs of the schools in the city and in line with However, I must be fair to the previous Government. its statutory duties and local priorities. They were not the only ones who failed to respond to rising birth rates and the impending pressure on school Mr Ainsworth: I seek clarification. I want to make the places. Local authorities have statutory responsibility Minister aware that there are four Hills system schools for ensuring that there is a school place for every child in the city, two of which are in my constituency. The who needs one, and several authorities have been slow school that we are discussing is but one of them. He to respond to the emerging evidence of pressure on appears to have just talked about a capital allocation for school places. Coventry that in total is about £13 million. He knows As well as being responsible for ensuring that there that a rebuild of Richard Lee in itself would take about are enough school places, local authorities are responsible £8 million of that city-wide £13 million pot, leaving for ensuring that schools such as Richard Lee primary practically nothing for distribution to the rest of the school are kept in good condition. Clearly, that is a city. Is that figure to remain the same, and is my particularly big challenge in this case. Schools shoulder understanding correct that he said we would have clarity some of that responsibility through the delegation of on the capital budget within the next few weeks? school management to the schools themselves. The central Government capital grant is intended to help, Tim Loughton: The right hon. Gentleman knows that but the maintenance of premises is one of the purposes if we had more money from Building Schools for the of revenue budgets. The revenue budget for the 484 pupils Future—if money had been spent much more efficiently of Richard Lee school in 2010-11 was more than on the schools that were built at that time—more money £1.5 million, which averages about £80,000 for every would have been left over in the budget to spend on 25 pupils—an average class size. Freedoms for schools primary schools that are in a parlous state. I did say that entail responsibilities and, for every school, those the Sebastian James review will report in the next few responsibilities include a share of the maintenance weeks—imminently—about how we will approach capital responsibility. spend in the future. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman However, none of that improves the situation of the will be able to take some clarity from that. pupils of Richard Lee school, some of whom have been having lessons in conditions that no one would regard The situation is not easy. As I have said, we are in as satisfactory, as the right hon. Member for Coventry very tight budgetary circumstances, but I entirely recognise North East rightly highlighted. I was relieved to learn the particularly harsh circumstances in which Richard that all the classes are now at least taking place in Lee primary school finds itself physically at the moment. classrooms. I understand that, as he said, for a spell I gather that Richard Lee was included in Coventry city after the boiler burst, some classes were taking place in council’s original primary strategy for change submitted corridors, which is completely unsatisfactory. in 2008 as part of the city council’s primary capital programme. Work on the school was to be a new build We are taking a number of urgent and decisive steps project, with an estimated budget cost of £8 million, as to tackle school building needs. First, we have put a the right hon. Gentleman said. stop to the bloated and misdirected Building Schools for the Future programme, because we recognise, as the However, the school was not subsequently prioritised right hon. Gentleman’s party did not, that the top in the council’s primary capital programme. That was a priorities for investment in school buildings have to be matter for the council. Instead, another school was ensuring enough school places and tackling poor building deemed a higher priority due to its condition and the condition—precisely the needs that Richard Lee primary need to address additional pupil numbers. One might school embodies. Through the work of the capital review wonder about the state that school must have been in that Sebastian James is leading for us, we are developing compared with the school to which the right hon. ways of managing capital that will be more efficient and Gentleman is referring. give better value for the funds spent. We expect the The primary capital programme will not continue review to report in the next few weeks. beyond the current comprehensive spending review term. In the announcement of 13 December, £13.4 million Therefore, there will be no opportunity of funding for was allocated to Coventry city council and its schools the school through that route. However, I understand for capital investment in Coventry schools in 2011-12. that Richard Lee school is now the council’s top priority We expect similar levels of funding to be allocated from for capital investment when funding can be identified. 53WH Richard Lee Primary School15 MARCH 2011 Richard Lee Primary School 54WH

We know that there are schools, such as Richard Lee, able to allocate £1.337 billion for capital maintenance in need of refurbishment that missed out in previous for schools, with more than £1 billion being allocated Government capital programmes, and people feel that for local areas to prioritise maintenance needs. In addition, they have therefore been treated unfairly. We are £195 million will be allocated directly to schools for determined to continue to invest in the school estate their own use. We have also allocated £800 million for overall. It is for local authorities to determine their basic needs in 2011-12, which is twice the previous priorities locally. As I have said, the average annual annual level of support. We expect similar levels of capital budget during the period will be higher than the funding to be allocated from 2012-13 until 2014-15. The average annual capital budget in the 1997-98 to 2004-05 capital allocation for this year for Coventry city council period. However, I recognise that in the short term it and its schools was announced on 13 December, as I will be difficult for schools to adjust to reduced capital said. It is now up to the council to decide how it funding. prioritises its local spending. We will introduce a new approach to capital allocation, I entirely appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s very which will prioritise ensuring enough places and addressing genuine and clear frustration with the state of that poor conditions as quickly as we can. That model will primary school in his constituency. I repeat my be outlined in the capital review, which, as I said, will congratulations and thanks to the staff and governors report in the next few weeks. Within the funding available for the job that they are doing in very adverse circumstances. to us, our intention is that the new model will prioritise We are determined that in future what reduced moneys areas that are experiencing high pressure to increase the there are for capital spend will be targeted at those most number of school places and those with buildings in in need, in terms both of the condition of the fabric of most need of repair, as would appear to be the case for buildings and ensuring that sufficient places are available, Richard Lee school. given rising school rolls. I hope that the right hon. We are determined to ensure that money is spent on Gentleman will be able to see from the results of the school infrastructure and the buildings themselves, not James Review, coming out soon, how we intend to on bureaucracy and processes, which have claimed too achieve that, so that there may be some renewed hope much of the funding in the past. Even when funding is for his school—now at the top of Coventry’s priorities—to tight, it is essential that buildings and equipment are get a better settlement in the future to deal with the properly maintained to ensure that health and safety problems that it clearly has. I will pass on his request for standards are met and to prevent a backlog of decay a visit or for a meeting with a delegation to the Minister that is expensive to address. Clearly, the patching of of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend patches that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned is not the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton, who the most effective way of spending resources. is responsible for schools. Once again, I congratulate By stopping Building Schools for the Future projects the right hon. Gentleman on having raised the subject that were not contractually committed, we have been today. 55WH 15 MARCH 2011 New Homes Bonus 56WH

New Homes Bonus We received 3,000 separate responses to the consultation, including nearly 50,000 separate comments. That just goes to show that we really can engage communities if 12.59 pm we wish to. That change—consultation, getting together George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): It a pleasure with communities and deciding with them what they to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Williams. I welcome need for their areas—forms the principle plank of the the Minister to the debate and I am glad to see him proposed changes. almost in his seat. Neighbourhood planning empowers local communities I spent 11 years as a district councillor in a local to shape their own responses to their population’s needs, planning authority. As many colleagues will know, being as set out by their local councillors, and councillors a local councillor is a frustrating affair, but never more have to make that case persuasively. That is all well and so than when it comes to the provision of housing for fine, but where does the new homes bonus fit in? As I local people. Many obstacles are set in the way of local said, the issue is loss of amenity, which is slightly councillors, and there is often great hostility. With huge difficult to quantify. Most of the benefits that people numbers of people on the housing waiting list, I wished think about when we talk about new homes are in the we had been able to get to grips with the issue better. realm of public goods. For example, new homes might Regional spatial strategies provided for local plans provide the critical mass for the local shop, ensure the and core strategies to include more houses. That was a continuation of the local school or reduce out-commuting valuable stick, which ensured that many authorities in search of local employment. All those things are made plans for homes, when they might not otherwise persuasive, and it is difficult to relate them to the fact have done so. However, the inclusion of houses in local that people will be stuck in more traffic when they go to plans and local development framework core strategies work or might find it more difficult to see the local was almost always achieved in the teeth of fierce resistance doctor. However, many individual households will see from local people. A great many houses were planned little, if any, direct benefit from the fact that new houses but never built, and that is a key issue, which we need to are going up. confront. Plenty of areas did not have regional spatial Why not soften that blow, therefore, with a contribution strategies; indeed, in my time, the south-west still had towards whatever the community wishes to spend its not put even the bare bones of a spatial strategy in money on? That is the right way to move things forward. place. Indeed, why not go further? There has been lots of criticism, certainly from members of the Select Committee Most important, however, the strategies removed the on Communities and Local Government, that such an need for local councillors to think about the merits or approach somehow involves bribery and that it is a bad demerits of increasing local housing. They could simply idea for money to change hands in the planning system. hide behind the Government’s skirts and say, “It is all I understand that argument, and I see where people are that nasty Government’s fault that new houses have coming from, but if people suffer a direct loss of amenity come to your area.” They never needed to confront and see their lives somewhat devalued, is there anything local people or hostile sections of communities about wrong with making a payment to them or reducing the why increasing local housing provision was a good amount of council tax they pay for several years? I thing. Quite simply, that infantilised councils. Furthermore, think not. If people see that the authorities understand the arrangements gave a huge advantage to those who that they are genuinely losing something, even if only opposed the plans. One thing follows the other; if a for a brief period, as a result of new homes coming positive argument is not made for increasing local housing, along, we can responsibly make payments in kind to it is hardly surprising that the most extreme views on them. the other side win the day. For that very reason, it is incredibly important that I therefore greatly welcomed the Conservative party’s all proposals for the new homes bonus include the publication two or three years ago of its Green Paper assumption that spending should be very local to where “Open Source Planning”. It talked about a huge change the development happens. That leads me to my first of emphasis in our approach to planning. We were question to the Minister. What about the 80:20 split in going to consult much more deeply with local communities, two-tier areas? Why does a county council need to have about not just the houses themselves but the reasons a share if compensating local people is the primary why they might be required. We were going to acknowledge objective? that people lost amenity when large amounts of housing were built. We were going to provide a carrot, which we Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I congratulate my hon. now know as the new homes bonus, to compensate local Friend on introducing such an important debate. The people in some way for the fact that they would have 80:20 split is of great concern to Rugby borough council, problems when the new houses came along. That was which argues that it has taken forward the proposals for good common sense. the new housing from which Rugby will benefit. It is I already knew at that stage that deep consultation concerned that a proportion of the new homes bonus was absolutely necessary. In the Winchester district, we will be allocated to the county council, which will had the courage to act ourselves. We went out into the benefit from development under the section 106 agreement community and consulted widely. We sat down with and the community infrastructure levy. I hope that the large groups of local people, ran workshops and tried Minister will give us a little more detail about where this carefully to explain why we wished to build more homes. 80:20 split comes from. I note from the responses to the As a result, we found that we could persuade people. If consultation that it is a starting point for negotiation, we took the arguments out there and set them out but those who represent the authority in my area would rationally, people would listen; they would accept more be interested to understand a little more about where housing if they could see why it benefited their communities. the split comes from and where it is likely to end up. 57WH New Homes Bonus15 MARCH 2011 New Homes Bonus 58WH

George Hollingbery: I thank my hon. Friend for that Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate my timely intervention. I absolutely agree with what he hon. Friend on securing the debate. I agree with what he says. In a moment or two, I want to develop this has said and also the comments from my hon. Friend argument a little further, because there is some confusion the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) and the hon. about where infrastructure comes from. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) about the 80:20 split. Will my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Valley (George Hollingbery) comment on another issue? serve under you, Mr Williams. My area is in a two-tier In my constituency there is a significant problem of district. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the funding empty properties. We have 896 empty properties in the for the new homes bonus comes from reductions in the town of Nelson alone. Will my hon. Friend join me in formula grant, which affect the county council? According welcoming the Government’s decision to include long-term to the hon. Gentleman’s argument, the reduction in empty properties being brought back into use as part of Lancashire county council’s formula grant will be the new homes bonus, thus boosting the financial viability redistributed only to the district authorities, which, in of regeneration schemes in areas such as Pendle? my area, is Hyndburn borough council. Does he not accept that that argument is flawed and that the Minister George Hollingbery: That is entirely to be welcomed. should not adjust the formula grants for shire authorities I would add that a section in the recently published final if they will not receive any of the bonus at the end of the scheme for the new homes bonus reminds us that the year? spending review also announced that the Government were investing £100 million through the Homes and George Hollingbery: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Communities Agency to enable housing associations to his intervention. He makes some cogent points, which support local authorities to bring more than 3,000 the Minister will want to respond to in a moment. homes back into use. As a package, I think that is to be There is a danger here. We are clearly channelling welcomed. It is right that the new homes bonus should payments down to a community for its loss of amenity, also be made attractive by bringing empty homes back but it is dangerous for us to confuse that with the into use. provision of infrastructure. Let me develop that argument My second question to the Minister is about transfers a little more. Page 11 of “New Homes Bonus: final across local planning authority borders. I emphasise scheme design” states: again that the new homes bonus is to compensate for a “Local authorities will have flexibility on how to spend the loss of amenity. However, what about the loss of amenity unringfenced grant…In many cases this will involve advanced to those sitting on the other side of a local planning planning with other local service providers to ensure that there is authority boundary? All of us who represent rural timely delivery of infrastructure for the new development. For constituencies—and even those who perhaps represent example, local authorities can pool funding to deliver infrastructure.” slightly more urban areas—will recognise a situation in I hope that that will not be read as an invitation to which one planning authority plans a large number of spend the new homes bonus on infrastructure that homes in an area of its administration which will not would be provided by the community infrastructure have any effect on its citizens. levy or other agencies in any event. There is a dangerous There is such a development in my constituency at blurring of the margins here, and I seek some reassurance Whiteley, where 15 years ago a large new development from the Minister that the new homes bonus will be of 4,000 homes was built. It was immediately adjacent focused on local communities. to Fareham town, which has no contacts at all with There is a further confusion. The community Winchester district. All contacts went south. Under infrastructure levy is coming through. Section 106 will current rules on the new homes bonus, all of that new be narrowed to deal only with site-specific issues. On homes bonus would flow to Winchester and not to top of that, there is open spaces funding—I think it will Fareham where it rightly should be. Likewise, we are still exist, although I am not 100% certain—and the now confronted by a proposal from Fareham borough new homes bonus. There will, therefore, be three potential council, which wishes to build 6,000 homes on the ways of providing infrastructure, and I would like some border of Winchester constituency, with most of the reassurance from the Minister on the potential confusion loss of amenity affecting those in Wickham and Knowle about them. I have had evidence on the issue from local in the Winchester district authority. parishes in my area, and particularly from West Meon I believe we should be able to form neighbourhood parish council, which I met recently. Its members were forums across LPA boundaries, and some of the payment very confused about where open spaces funding would of the new homes bonus should go directly to those sit in the new matrix. forums across boundaries. We should at least encourage Just yesterday I received a letter from Hampshire the chief executives and leaders of local councils that county council, which is particularly worried about the reduce the amenity of those across the border to share timing of the community infrastructure levy. It says: and share alike. “We believe the arbitrary date of April 2014 will cause serious problems both for ourselves and the district councils and risks Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I thank my triggering a growing infrastructure deficit.” hon. Friend for giving way and for securing this important It goes on to request that only local planning authorities debate. House building is probably the biggest issue in with robust policies in place for CIL should be subject my constituency at the moment. The Labour-led Kirklees to the changes by April 2014. That causes me to worry council is pushing a local development framework plan that there is going to be yet more impetus for the new using the old regional spatial strategy house-building homes bonus to be spent on infrastructure that should target of 26,000. There is a lot of suspicion about that, otherwise be provided by different mechanisms. particularly about the new homes bonus. 59WH New Homes Bonus15 MARCH 2011 New Homes Bonus 60WH

[Jason McCartney] terraced houses is demolished: there will be short-term empties, occupied houses and long-term voids. Some My hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (George houses will be deducted, so short-term voids are included Hollingbery) spoke about the loss of amenity. My in the net figures for the new homes bonus. Will the constituents are really worried about the loss of amenity Minister comment on that? of green belt, green fields and the countryside. Could In describing his policies the Minister talks about we ask the Minister about the possibility of a massively regeneration, but also about two-into-one and three-into- disproportionate new homes bonus for houses built on one schemes. The hon. Member for Pendle has some of brownfield sites and regeneration of empty homes, which those schemes in his constituency which, I know, are my hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew very successful and are selling well. There will be net Stephenson) mentioned, as opposed to a bonus for reductions in the new homes bonus available for homes built on greenfield sites? That would be a really constituencies such as Pendle. Surely, the two-into-one positive step. and three-into-one schemes and short-term voids should not be part of the new homes bonus. We need to add to George Hollingbery: I thank my hon. Friend for his the council tax base process an element that includes intervention and add his question to the Minister’s those that are on the council tax base, and not just talk already long list. about long-term voids that are not. Will the Minister accept those points? 1.14 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: I notice that Pendle is credited with Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): 107 new homes, so it will be getting the new homes It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr bonus. It is only fair to my hon. Friend the Member for Williams, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member Meon Valley, who initiated the debate, to turn to his for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), his hon. Friends points. and the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) It should be clear that the Department for Communities on their contributions to the debate. and Local Government has set aside almost £1 billion My hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley fairly for the scheme over the spending review period, including set out the problem that the new homes bonus is intended £200 million in 2011-12. That funding for 2011-12, to address. For decades house building has failed to contrary to the assertion of the hon. Member for keep up with people’s needs, and a combination of the Hyndburn, is additional money outside of the grant recession and the regional spatial strategies targets that formula. generated a bow-wave of opposition in many areas, led The balance between market and affordable homes is to a steep decline in the number of new homes provided. also crucial and, therefore, there is an additional £350 The year 2009 saw the lowest level of house building in payable for each affordable home for the following six England and Wales in peacetime since 1923, and the years, on top of the new homes bonus for homes in cost of a new home doubled in real terms between 1997 general. That means that local authorities could receive and 2007. up to £9,000 for each affordable home over the next six There is no doubt that housing is central to economic years. success as well as to personal well-being. We need to Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I thank the make building homes a motor for growth again. The Minister for giving way. I served with him on the new homes bonus will do exactly that. It has localism at Localism Bill Committee, and we had long debates its heart; it will re-energise communities; it will give about the benefits of incentives versus coercion. Does them an incentive to say yes rather than no, which was he agree that it is important that the Government the consequence of the top-down, target-driven scheme should constantly review the level of the bonus, for both that it partly replaces. normal and affordable housing, to ensure that the incentive Graham Jones: I welcome the Minister’s comments is sufficient to generate the necessary level of house that this is a positive policy to encourage growth, and building? his assertion that it will create growth. However, what is Andrew Stunell: I will shortly be speaking about some the incentive to build houses in light of the following of the other incentives that are in place, but I agree with two factors? The hon. Member for Pendle (Andrew my hon. Friend that if we had more money we could Stephenson) touched on them. The first is population have bigger incentives. Nevertheless, it might be wise to decline, and the second is the existence of too many wait for the scheme to bed in before starting that houses already. revision. Andrew Stunell: I suggest that the hon. Gentleman The scheme will pay grant equal to the national look at the empty homes element of the new homes average for the council tax band concerned on each bonus as particularly appropriate for the communities additional property, and it will be paid for the following of east Lancashire. My hon. Friend the Member for six years as an un-ring-fenced grant. I stress that it is Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) made exactly that point. not ring-fenced; the Government make no prescription It is an important way of providing a market signal to and give no advice to local authorities on how they those who own empty homes, to encourage them to might spend the money. It is entirely a matter for the invest in them and bring them back into use. recipient authorities. That brings me to who are the recipient authorities. Graham Jones: I accept the Minister’s point that My hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley asked long-term voids are not on the council tax base, but me to say something about the split between the county short-term voids are. There will be a mix when a row of and district tiers in two-tier areas. First, I should say 61WH New Homes Bonus15 MARCH 2011 New Homes Bonus 62WH that in single-tier areas, 100% goes to the principal local Friend the Member for Meon Valley asked about open authority; in county areas, 80% goes to the district spaces funding. The Department has set aside £11.2 million planning authority, and 20% to the county council. for community green spaces funding for the coming When I say “it goes”, that is the default position, but it year. That goes principally to supporting groundwork is open to each of those authorities to consider whether for the green flag award accreditation scheme, and the they want that to be the case in all circumstances. For federation of city farms and community gardens partnership instance—this is an example; it is not intended to be a work programme. Those programmes continue on a Government directive—if the tipping point for the creation comparatively modest scale, but the amount that local of a new primary school was involved, there might well authorities choose to allocate for parks and other green be some other consideration than 80:20. I remind the spaces is rightly a matter for them. House that when it comes to local authority spending, it is generally the case that 80% is spent by the county and George Hollingbery: Do I take the Minister to mean 20% by the district, so we are inverting that ratio. that open spaces funding will not be levied on developments Every development is different and will need different from now on? services to support it, and different local concerns will drive the choice on how to spend the new homes bonus. Andrew Stunell: I am sorry to say that I did not catch Local authorities and local communities are best placed what my hon. Friend said. to negotiate those choices in meeting the needs of local George Hollingbery: I apologise. Am I to take his neighbourhoods. My hon. Friend spoke of local comments to mean that local authorities will no longer communities having the loudest voice. I certainly agree be levying an open spaces fund—a charge for open with him on that, hence the 80%, but there are also spaces? parish and town councils; and in many unparished areas there will be residents’ and community groups. I Andrew Stunell: I shall take note of that question and would expect sensible local authorities, in working through write to the hon. Gentleman, so that I do not give a the new local planning arrangements with neighbourhood misleading response. plans, to see the bonus as a vital part of negotiating effectively with those communities on how the new The Government have given communities the homes bonus should apply in those areas. opportunity to participate much more strongly in the process of protecting spaces through the community My hon. Friend also asked how the boundaries question assets list, the community right to reclaim land and the would be dealt with, and gave the example of Whiteley. community right to bid and challenge. Local communities That may be seen as pulling in the opposite direction to that are concerned about these matters therefore have a his point about county and district investment, because number of opportunities to become directly involved. both of the areas that he spoke of are in Hampshire. The county council will benefit by just over £1 million As well as the new homes bonus there is, as the hon. from the new homes bonus—that will be its 20% for the Member for Meon Valley said, the community coming year—and it is a provider of services across infrastructure levy and section 106 agreements. Both both of the areas mentioned. In such situations, the fact are specifically directed to infrastructure investment that there is a top-tier section of the new homes bonus and planning outcomes. They are different from the may be to everyone’s advantage. In addition, the Localism new homes bonus; they are not ring-fenced and there is Bill introduces a duty for local authorities to co-operate, no obligation for the money to be spent on infrastructure which is relevant in establishing plans, taking decisions or related matters. about how things such as the new homes bonus should Local authorities will have the opportunity to introduce be spent, and how some common objectives can be met. a community infrastructure levy. I note the concerns that my hon. Friend passes on from Hampshire, but it is My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason important that we get these incentives in place quickly. McCartney) asked about the possibility of adapting the If my hon. Friend lets me have that correspondence, the new homes bonus to give preference to approvals on Department will give some thought to those matters. certain types of land. That is not part of the scheme; nor, as things stand, do I foresee it happening in future. Section 106 will be scaled back so that it is specifically However, the introduction of the neighbourhood planning directed to deal with the impact of particular developments. system will give local communities and local Statutory tests were introduced in 2010 to ensure that neighbourhoods a much firmer grasp of such decisions obligations are directly related to proposed developments. as they build up their neighbourhood plans under the Regulations prevent section 106 agreements and the district plan, which is subject to the national planning community infrastructure levy being collected for the policy framework. I hope that my hon. Friends are same piece of infrastructure. After 2014, tariff-style satisfied to hear that. planning and obligations will not be permitted. The characteristic level at which the community infrastructure If I may, Mr Williams, I shall use the rest of my time levy is likely to fall would be between £5,000 and speaking about the different streams of money that £10,000 per home. Taken with the new homes bonus, it support the Government’s intention to see vigorous, is a really powerful incentive for communities to agree sustainable development across the country. My hon. to new developments. 63WH 15 MARCH 2011 National Blood Service 64WH

National Blood Service certain groups of society giving blood, such as gay men, be up for review or does he think that such a ban is okay? 1.30 pm Jim Dobbin: Everything should be up for review at Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op): the present time. I am quite sure that the National Thank you, Mr Williams, for relieving me of my Chairman Blood Service is considering that matter as part of its duties so punctually. It was a great relief to have a rest review. and a coffee before I opened this debate. I am pleased to Donors give their services absolutely free to the national see the Minister in her place, because this is a subject health service. The Department of Health funds the that she will understand from her time in the national production of all the organisation’s services within its health service. I requested this debate on the future of factories, processing centres and laboratories. The system the National Blood Service to highlight the intentions has a record of sound financial control, of which the of the Government to sell off “elements” of the service NHS should be proud. I was in the service when cleaning to the private sector. I understand that there have been services were compulsorily tendered out to the private some preparatory discussions with a number of contractors. sector. If my memory is correct, that resulted in a That was revealed in a report in the Health Service reduction in the quality of service. We saw wards cleaned Journal. Three possible contractors are Capita, DHL less frequently and an increase in hospital infections and TNT. such as clostridium difficile, E. coli 0157 and methicillin- In the paperwork relating to this debate, Members resistant Staphylococcus aureus. We have all seen the may notice that I have an “R” after my name. I spent publicity that such infections have received. Privatisation 34 years in the national health service. Although I would introduce an element of cost cutting in order to specialised as a medical scientist in microbiology in the increase profit. Shortcuts, reduced training and a reduction NHS, I spent some of my former years in the National in quality are all strong possibilities. Blood Service, particularly in emergency transfusion The public who donate their services for free will be services, so I have some experience of the subject. discouraged from taking part if the profit motive is The NHS staff who deliver that service are highly introduced. The demand for blood from those who have skilled and highly trained and it is essential that they serious health conditions will not diminish, but the are. I notice that a number of my colleagues are here, supply of donors is in danger of being reduced. and I am quite happy for them to get involved in this debate. I will only spend about 10 minutes talking on Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I congratulate the subject. my hon. Friend on securing this debate. As I understand it, the National Blood Service is allowed to use the blue The annual review of the National Blood Service—and flashing light to transport blood to the most serious it is its own review—highlights the efforts that have cases. Is it not the case that if the service were privatised, gone into offering a world-class service to the NHS. It is the private sector companies would transport the blood probably the best blood service in the whole of the but would not be able to use the blue-light service globe. Thanks to its unique clinical knowledge and because it is restricted at the moment? experience and the support that it receives from its many dedicated donors and families, many people who Jim Dobbin: If that were the case, it would make it need blood and organs can be saved. In its annual much more dangerous for those patients who were review, the organisation has spent some time evaluating waiting to receive that blood or organ. I would not like its system and performance. In other words, it has to see that happening. looked at itself in great depth and that has allowed it to The National Blood Service has created a strategy for achieve substantial savings and to lower the cost of a each of its departments as it strives to improve its unit of blood. According to its annual review, a unit of service and, looking at the review in great detail, in my blood has dropped from £140 to £130 and it should view, it is succeeding. It is aware of the current economic reduce further to £125 this year, which will mean a situation and the constraints that it is working within saving of £30 million a year to the NHS. That money over the next few years. It is planning more developments can be reinvested in NHS front-line patient care. in future years. The question that has to be asked is why The National Blood Service administers not just sell off something that is working so well. I understand units of blood, but organ donation, tissue donation and that scientific staff have been angry about these moves. work on stem cells. There have also been improvements They have blasted the Government plan and demand in the delivery of organ donation procedures, including changes to the Health and Social Care Bill, which will training additional specialist nurses and increasing the let private companies cash in on lucrative Government numbers of people who are prepared to contribute contracts. organs. User hospital trusts pay for the blood products and services. It is important that both hon. Members Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend and the public understand that blood and tissue donors share my concern about the staff who currently work in give their services for free. the National Blood Service? Many of them opt to work in such services because they believe in the public good and in the common good. Does he share my concern Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): I congratulate about the impact that privatisation will have on them? the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. May I ask him a question on the subject of reform? The Jim Dobbin: Yes. That is exactly right. Those staff, National Blood Service is crying out for new donors. who are well trained specialists in their area, are very Should the fact that there is still an arbitrary ban on concerned about the damage that this proposal would 65WH National Blood Service15 MARCH 2011 National Blood Service 66WH do to the blood transfusion system and they are very I am very concerned. The Government are saying angry about what is possibly going to happen. Of that only elements of the NHS blood transfusion service course, they also fear that donors will walk away. There are under discussion at the present time. That is a are 1.4 million volunteer donors at the moment. They dangerous route to go down. I hope that the Minister donate about 200,000 units every year, which is a huge will take this issue back to the Government and the amount of blood, and all of it is donated voluntarily. Secretary of State, and ask for a review of this particular Privatisation of the blood service has been tried in New service that the public so dearly love. The other thing Zealand and it drove down the number of blood donors. that I will say is that if someone is looking for a big It deterred them from making that contribution freely, society in action, the blood service is it. because donors do not like to see their organs or blood as part of a private sector business. 1.44 pm Why should the private sector profit from blood that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health is given freely? There is no private sector organisation (Anne Milton): Having not served under your chairmanship that has the expertise to provide the range of services— before, Mr Williams, I now find myself doing so twice blood supplies, tissue, organs and specialist products, in a day. It is a pleasure. plus the specialist research expertise—that are provided I congratulate the hon. Member for Heywood and by the NHS blood transfusion service. Middleton (Jim Dobbin) on securing the debate and I pay tribute to his experience of this sector. I also echo Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I congratulate the tributes that he paid to the staff who are part of the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. such a fantastic organisation and who are one of the He raised an important issue when he said that there are reasons why it has such a high reputation. a number of reasons why people give blood. Personally, The debate is an important opportunity to discuss an I gave blood at the Galpharm stadium in Huddersfield issue that is not only important to the NHS and the a couple of years ago because I was inspired by Adrian public but which has been the subject of very unhelpful Sudbury, the journalist from The Huddersfield Daily rumour and speculation. I become very disappointed Examiner. Before he died, he also inspired people to when I see scare stories in the press that are not necessarily sign up to the bone marrow register maintained by the based on any foundation and that will only result in Anthony Nolan Trust. So there is a lot of good work scaring people off donating blood, tissue or organs. going on and the hon. Gentleman has identified that. I Those stories are not helpful. I urge the hon. Gentleman hope that the Minister, in her deliberations, will think and the other hon. Members sitting beside him that if about the other roles that the National Blood Service they want to clarify the situation they should please feel plays. The hon. Gentleman quite rightly identified that free to contact me. That is much better than running the service is not only about giving blood but about scare stories, or a story getting out of hand, so that the giving tissue and other material. I thank him for making issue becomes a disservice to the public we are all trying that point. to serve. Jim Dobbin: I thank the hon. Gentleman very much. Contrary to what some people have been saying That was a very positive contribution, based on his own publicly and indeed privately, there are no plans to specific experience. There is a petition about this issue, privatise the blood service, which is part of NHS Blood there are now some 35,000 signatures on it, and it is and Transplant, or NHSBT. I can say categorically that building up all the time. we are not selling off the service. If I do nothing else in this debate, I want to knock that rumour on its head. Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab): I also The Government have said previously that we will congratulate my hon. Friend on securing a very important retain a single national system for blood with NHSBT debate about an issue that is of great concern among at its helm and we stand by that statement. Under its the public. I wanted to ask him about the lessons from current management team, NHSBT has done a great overseas countries where blood transfusion services have job and it continues to do so. It has maintained—indeed, been privatised and where it is standard to pay for greatly improved—the stability and security of the blood donated materials. What lessons can we learn from supply.It has also improved productivity in blood processing those countries about the safety of supply? and testing by more than 50% in three years, which is a true achievement. Jim Dobbin: I referred earlier to another privatisation that took place in the health service, when cleaning was Jim Dobbin: I have a letter from Andrew Pearce, who put out to tender. Of course, the quality of the service is the head of donor advocacy in the NHS. The second was reduced. That is exactly what I fear will happen paragraph says: with the blood service, because if someone is in the “The review is at an early stage and is likely to take a few business of making money and making profit they take months. Although we cannot rule out that the review might short cuts. It is as simple as that. eventually suggest that some of our supporting activities should be market-tested, this is by no means certain.” The petition that I was talking about is building up. There is some doubt in that letter, which is from someone In addition, 300 people got in touch to say how much within the blood system itself, about whether market-testing they valued the blood service. For many of those people, is going on with a view to something else happening. their loved ones personally benefited from the altruism People do not test something for the market if they are of a fellow human being. not intending to put it out to tender. The blood service began before the national health service, around the time of world war two, when the Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his demand for the service originated. So the blood service intervention. What matters is that people get good is older than the NHS. value for money from the taxes that they pay. What also 67WH National Blood Service15 MARCH 2011 National Blood Service 68WH

[Anne Milton] precise answer, I will have to come back to him on Monitor because I do not have the information with matters is that we do things effectively and efficiently, so me. I will happily do that after the debate. we constantly market-test within NHS provision. We The blood service is self-funding, in that it recovers should do so. What matters to us is having a quality the cost of collecting, testing and processing blood service. However, we are not selling off the blood service through the price paid by the NHS for each unit. The and we are not privatising it. As for performance, I am price of a unit is therefore directly related to the efficiency sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree that the with which NHSBT conducts its operations; the one performance of our blood service puts us in the top feeds into the other. If the cost of a unit of blood goes quartile compared with other European blood services. up, there is pressure on budgets, so the whole NHS has That is a fantastic achievement. an interest in NHSBT being as efficient as possible and I reiterate the hon. Gentleman’s comments about keeping the cost low. The £30 million that we have been what the improvements in the blood service mean. able to put back in demonstrates that costs are being There has been a reduction in the price of a unit of kept low, and more can be spent on patient care. blood, down by £15 from £140 in 2008-09 to £125 today. The review of NHSBT was announced in the report As he rightly pointed out, that reduction saves hospitals produced by the arm’s length bodies review in July £30 million each year, which can be channelled straight 2010. The review is ongoing, and I cannot say what the back into patient care. Again, I pay tribute to the staff outcome will be, but I would like to explain what the who have achieved that reduction. review is about, and in doing so, clarify what it is not It would be a huge oversight on my part if I did not about and hopefully reassure the hon. Member for also pay tribute to those who donate their blood for the Heywood and Middleton and all those who might share benefit of others. I am pleased to learn that my hon. his concerns. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) The review will identify opportunities both to help has donated blood himself. Every year, 1.4 million NHSBT further improve the efficiency of its operations, people donate blood, which means that 2 million units a and to save money. Aspects of NHSBT’s activities year are donated in total. That equates to 7,000 new covered by the review include IT, estates, testing, processing units of blood every day, or about five a minute. Statistics and logistics. NHSBT has recognised that those areas are wonderful when one is engaged in a debate such as have room for improvement, in both developing services this one; they show the scale of the donations that are and increasing efficiency; such functions can often be made. Those donations have saved countless lives and carried out more efficiently. NHSBT already outsources continue to do so. Indeed, the altruistic donor system is some of its activities to private sector companies, for one of the rocks that the NHS is built on and we will example facilities management, legal services and the not do anything to jeopardise public confidence in it. call centre, so by exploring whether greater savings are It would also be remiss of me not to mention organ possible, the review does nothing new. It simply takes a donation. The one thing that we do not do often currently successful model, which has demonstrated enough is to thank people who donate their organs and that it can improve, and considers whether it would those of their loved ones, saving many lives in the work if it were to be expanded. process. We have made great improvements in organ As I said, we are looking to ensure maximum efficiency donation, which is up by 28% since 2008, but we must for NHSBT, and I am sure that the hon. Member for continue to make improvements. I do not want Heywood and Middleton agrees with that aim. We will anything, anyone or any public statement to jeopardise do whatever works, and whatever can ensure a safe any of that. On the contrary, we want to carry out a supply of blood to the NHS. review to help NHS Blood and Transplant to improve its operational efficiency even further and provide an even better service. Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab): Will the review of the British national The blood service must be seen in the context of its blood service be subject to European competition law? role in the NHS. The hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) mentioned courier services for getting blood around the place. We have been using Anne Milton: I am pretty sure that it will, but I will courier services for many years—the previous Government check. did so as well—to deliver organs and tissue, and there is There have been suggestions that outsourcing some no question of putting the delivery of blood at risk. other functions might lead to donors declining to donate. We are absolutely clear that in exploring other opportunities, Grahame M. Morris: Just for the record, it was my we will not put at risk any aspect of public health. I do hon. Friend the Member for Bradford South (Mr Sutcliffe) not want donors or any Member here today to believe who raised that issue, but it is one that I am concerned that this is privatisation of our highly respected national about. blood service. Will the Minister address the new role of the economic regulator, Monitor, and the responsibilities that it will Jason McCartney: I thank the Minister for clarifying have regarding competition? Will its remit extend to the that there will be no sell-off—no privatisation—of the blood service? national blood service. Some Opposition Members are concerned that if there was some privatisation there Anne Milton: I apologise for confusing the hon. would be a drop in donations, which is something that Gentleman with the Member who was sitting next to no one in the House would wish. Hopefully, Members him. At least it gave me the opportunity to clarify the on both sides of the House can now pass on that point. To ensure that I give the hon. Gentleman a information, so that there is confidence in the national 69WH National Blood Service15 MARCH 2011 National Blood Service 70WH blood service and we see an increase in donations. We service. The current review is designed to explore how it welcome the efficiency measures as well. can do that, to keep the price of blood—the cost to the NHS—as low as possible and to provide the high-quality Anne Milton: I thank my hon. Friend for reiterating blood service that donors and recipients deserve. that point. Blood is donated freely to the NHS to improve and save patients’ lives. Like any donation, it is Jim Dobbin: I agree that we should continually look a gift, and we want to maximise the opportunities for at research and at improving the system for the people that gift. We do not want to do anything to discourage of this country. I have no problem with that, except that donors. I state categorically that the donor-facing aspects I would like the service to remain within the NHS. of blood donation are excluded from the review, which will ensure that the relationship between NHSBT and Anne Milton: In everything he does, the hon. Gentleman its donors is not compromised. operates from a deep-seated belief in organisations such My hon. Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew as the NHS, and he wants the best, not just for his Stephenson) mentioned that people, in particular men constituents but for the people of this country. I therefore who have had sex with men, are excluded from blood urge him, as I urge all Opposition Members, not to play donation, and that issue is currently under consideration. politics with this issue, although I am sure that that is I understand that there has been a lot of concern that not his intention. If Opposition Members have any the rules are outdated, and we will make an announcement concerns, I urge them to discuss them with me; my door on the issue at some point in the near future. is open. It would be a tragedy if anyone did anything that reduced the number of donors coming forward. We I feel that I have been repetitive, but I need to be to are determined to ensure that that does not happen, but make the point, so I reiterate the Government’s support scare stories in the press can have that unintended for, and belief in, a single national system for donated consequence. We should not believe everything that we blood and organs, with NHSBT at its helm. That does read in the newspapers. not mean there is a blinkered belief that the system has already reached the peak of its potential; it would be Question put and agreed to. remiss of the Government to think so. NHSBT, like all areas of public and private life, must continue to innovate 1.58 pm and to challenge itself if it is to provide the best possible Sitting adjourned.

5WS Written Ministerial Statements15 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 6WS

In May the Government asked Will Hutton to make Written Ministerial recommendations to the Chancellor and the Prime Minister by March 2011 on promoting pay fairness in the public Statements sector by tackling disparities between the lowest and highest paid in public sector organisations. The Government welcome this report and are grateful Tuesday 15 March 2011 for the work of Will Hutton and the staff of the review. The Government are committed to striking a balance between value for money for taxpayers and fair pay for TREASURY public sector workers. We will give careful consideration to the recommendations and respond in detail in due Tax Policy Making, Tax Impact Assessments and course. Tax Information and Impact Notes The report is available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office and it has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David The report is also available on the review’s website at Gauke): As set out in “Improving tax policy making: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/ the new approach” published on 9 December 2010, the indreview_willhutton_fairpay.htm. Government have adopted a new process for undertaking impact assessment of tax and national insurance contributions (NICs) policy changes. This new tailored FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE tax impact assessment process will be used throughout the development of tax and NICs policy and will be summarised in tax information and impact notes. These Diplomatic Service Appeals Board notes set out what the policy change is, why the Government are proposing the change and a summary of the impacts The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign of the change. As explained below, they will be produced and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt): Following for all substantive changes in tax and NICs policy by the proposal by the public bodies review on 14 October primary and secondary legislation. to abolish the Civil Service Appeals Board (CSAB), the This new approach will consider a wider range of Secretary of State has taken the decision to close the impacts and cover a broader range of policy changes Diplomatic Service Appeals Board (DSAB). Like than the existing impact assessment regime for tax. The the CSAB, the DSAB was a non-departmental public Government are committed to consulting on tax policy body. It heard appeals from dismissed members of the changes and will use consultation and stakeholder diplomatic service, mirroring the main role of the CSAB engagement to inform and test their understanding of which considered appeals from dismissed members of the impacts of a proposed change in policy. the home civil service. The internal appeals mechanisms From Budget 2011 onwards, the Government will for staff members dismissed by the Foreign and publish a tax information and impact note for tax Commonwealth Office will remain in place. They may policy changes at the point at which the policy design is also make a claim of unfair dismissal to an employment final or near final. This could be alongside the Budget, tribunal. publication of draft legislation or final legislation, as The Permanent Under Secretary of the Foreign and appropriate. These notes will provide a clear statement Commonwealth Office has written to the current DSAB of the policy objective, impact on the Exchequer, the members thanking them for the contribution they have economy, individuals, businesses and civil society made to the board. organisations, as well as any equality and other specific impact. JUSTICE Tax information and impact notes will be available on the websites of HM Treasury and HM Revenue and Customs, and will be provided to Parliament through Draft Defamation Bill the normal publication channels. There will be a number of exceptions where a tax The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice information and impact note will not usually be published (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The Government have today laid alongside a routine legislative change that gives effect to before Parliament a draft Bill on defamation for public previously announced policy, for example: consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny. This reflects routine changes to rates, thresholds and allowances to a the coalition commitment to review the law of libel to predetermined formula such as indexation; protect free speech. appointed day orders; There are real concerns that the threat of libel proceedings secondary legislation enacting double taxation treaties; and is being used to frustrate robust scientific and academic secondary legislation not laid before Parliament. debate, and to impede responsible investigative journalism and the valuable work undertaken by non-governmental Hutton Review organisations. These concerns relate not only to cases which actually come before the courts, but also in relation to the chilling effect on freedom of expression The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): that is created more widely by the threat of costly and Will Hutton has today published the final report of his protracted legal proceedings against defendants who review of fair pay in the public sector. may often have limited resources. 7WS Written Ministerial Statements15 MARCH 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

The proposals in the draft Bill and consultation paper Issues which have not been included in the draft Bill aim to ensure that the right balance in the law is at this stage, but on which the consultation paper seeks achieved, so that people who have been defamed are views are: able to take action to protect their reputation where Responsibility for publication on the internet. The paper appropriate, but so that free speech is not unjustifiably seeks views on whether the law should be changed to give impeded. We also want to look at ways of speeding greater protection to secondary publishers such as internet court cases up, so as to cut the costs involved in defamation service providers, discussion forums and (in an offline context) proceedings. booksellers, or alternatively how the existing law should be updated and clarified; The draft Bill contains provisions on the following A new court procedure to resolve key preliminary issues at as issues: early a stage as possible, so that the length and cost of A new requirement that a statement must have caused or be defamation proceedings can be substantially reduced; likely to cause substantial harm in order for it to be defamatory; Whether the summary disposal procedure should be retained, A new statutory defence of responsible publication on matters and if so whether improvements can usefully be made to it; of public interest; Whether the power of the court under the summary procedure to order publication of a summary of its judgment should be A statutory defence of truth (replacing the current common made more widely available in defamation proceedings; law defence of justification); Whether further action is needed beyond the proposals in A statutory defence of honest opinion (replacing the current the draft Bill and the introduction of a new court procedure common law defence of fair/honest comment); to address issues relating to an inequality of arms in defamation Provisions updating and extending the circumstances in proceedings, including whether any specific restrictions should which the defences of absolute and qualified privilege are be placed on the ability of corporations to bring a defamation available; action; Introduction of a single publication rule to prevent an Whether the current provisions in case law restricting the action being brought in relation to publication of the same ability of public authorities and bodies exercising public material by the same publisher after a one-year limitation functions to bring defamation actions should be placed in period has passed; statute and whether these restrictions should be extended to other bodies exercising public functions. Action to address libel tourism by ensuring a court will not accept jurisdiction unless satisfied that England and Wales is We believe that publication of a draft Bill for full clearly the most appropriate place to bring an action against public consultation and pre-legislative scrutiny will help someone who is not domiciled in the UK or an EU member us to achieve fully considered legislative proposals which state; focus on core issues of concern where legislation can Removal of the presumption in favour of jury trial, so that make a real difference. After the consultation process is the judge would have a discretion to order jury trial where it completed, we intend to introduce substantive legislation is in the interests of justice. as soon as parliamentary time allows. 1P Petitions15 MARCH 2011 Petitions 2P

And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever Petition pray, &c.—[Presented by Angela Watkinson, Official Report, 31 January 2011; Vol. 522, c. 5P.]

Tuesday 15 March 2011 [P000883] Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: OBSERVATIONS On 20 October, the Chancellor announced that Department for Education capital spending would be £15.8 billion over the four year comprehensive spending EDUCATION review period. Although, the average annual capital Branfil Primary School (Upminster) budget over the period will be higher than the average annual capital budget in the 1997-98 to 2004-05 period, The Humble Petition of parents of pupils at Branfil this does represent a sharp reduction from very high Primary School (Upminster), levels of spending in 2010-11. Over the next few years Sheweth, that the Petitioners believe that there is an our priority is to reduce the country’s budget deficit. urgent need to rebuild Branfil Primary School; notes This is essential, as the amount we are currently spending that part of the school have needed to close on many on debt interest payments could be used to rebuild or occasions, following the recent flooding of the Foundation refurbish 10 schools every day. Stage building, and other failings of services over the years; that children and teachers are missing out on We know that there are schools such as Branfil Primary important schooling, or that schooling is being school in need of refurbishment which have missed out compromised, by the fact that these facilities are not fit from previous Government capital programmes, and for purpose and need to be rebuilt this year; and that the that people feel they have therefore been treated unfairly. petitioners believe that this is an embarrassment and We will be introducing a new approach to capital that it is not acceptable for these buildings to be used for allocation which will prioritise ensuring enough places another winter. and addressing poor conditions as quickly as we can. Sheweth, that prefabs were originally constructed as This model will be outlined in the capital review which temporary measures, but they are still standing 60 years will report in the next few weeks. Within the funding on; that these structures may be suitable for garage or available to us, our intention is that the new model will shed purposes, but they are not suitable for educational prioritise areas which are experiencing high pressures to needs; that all classrooms are extremely cold throughout increase the number of school places, and those with the winter, as there is no insulation; that the toilets are buildings in the most need of repair. very cold and exposed to the elements all year round, because the doors are kept open because they are too Even where funding is tight, it is essential that buildings heavy and dangerous for the children to use; that heating and equipment are properly maintained, to ensure the failures and burst pipes have closed the school, and health and safety standards are met, and to prevent a seem to be a usual winter occurrence; that corridors are backlog of decay building up that is expensive to address. becoming wet and dangerous in wet periods, which is a Therefore, in 2011-12, £1,337 million will be available risk to pregnant teachers; that there is asbestos present for capital maintenance for schools, with over £1 billion in the roofing material and perhaps in other areas, being allocated for local areas to prioritise maintenance which is a health hazard; that the cost of heating and needs. In addition, £195 million will be allocated directly repairing the building must be very high over the long to schools for their own use. term; and notes that these are only a few of the health The capital allocation for 2011-12 for the London and safety and cost issues which should be taken seriously. borough of Havering and its schools was announced on Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable 13 December. The council now needs to consider how it House urges the Government to take all possible steps prioritises the available funding, having regard to the to ensure that Branfil Primary School is rebuilt. building needs of the schools in its area.

163W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 164W Written Answers to WOMEN AND EQUALITIES Human Trafficking: Females Questions Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities what discussions she has had with Tuesday 15 March 2011 ministerial colleagues on the number of women victims of human traffickers who are subsequently re-trafficked. [45533] SCOTLAND Damian Green [holding answer 10 March 2011]: I Devolution: Scotland have been asked to reply. I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for on a range of trafficking issues. Scotland what discussions he has had with the Chief We are committed to ensuring that victims of trafficking Secretary to the Treasury on the likely effect of the who voluntarily return to their home country get the budget of the Scottish Parliament of the ending of support that they need to reintegrate effectively, and we end-year flexibility. [46783] work closely with non-governmental organisation (NGO) partners to achieve this. Michael Moore: I have regular discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on a wide range of issues. The Government’s priority is to deal with the deficit, and the end-year flexibility system has led to NORTHERN IRELAND accumulated stocks of around £20 billion across the United Kingdom which would further increase the deficit Departmental Regulation if they were spent. The Government have therefore committed to abolish this system and to replace it with Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for a new system which will provide flexibility while Northern Ireland (1) what regulations his Department strengthening spending control. However, in recognition introduced between 2 February and 28 February 2011; of the unique situation of the devolved Administrations, [46965] the Government have allowed Scotland to carry forward £130 million of agreed under spend from this year into (2) what regulations his Department revoked next. between 2 February and 28 February 2011. [46966]

Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Swire: My Department introduced no statutory Scotland whether the ending of end-year flexibility has instruments in the period between 2 February and been discussed with the Scottish Government in the 28 February 2011. Joint Ministerial Committee. [46785] The Northern Ireland Office has responsibilities chiefly on constitutional, electoral and national security fields; Michael Moore: I can confirm that the matter was they do not generally concern business regulation. My discussed at the last Joint Ministerial Committee (Domestic) Department has not revoked any regulations during on 2 February 2011. this period. Firearms

Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Scotland pursuant to his contribution of 7 March 2011, Official Report, column 716, on the Scotland Bill, Oral Questions whether BB guns fall within the definition of air weapons which the Scottish Parliament will have the Duncan Hames: To ask the hon. Member for power to ban under the provisions of the Scotland Bill. Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing [45941] the House of Commons Commission, how many questions for oral answer were entered into the shuffle David Mundell: The term ‘BB gun’ is understood to for each of the three most recent question times for be a type of airgun which fires a BB projectile through a each Government Department and other answering smoothbore barrel. Since their muzzle energy is commonly body; and if the Commission will make arrangements so low as not to be lethal, BB guns and airsoft guns do for the routine publication of these figures. [46624] not generally fall within the subject-matter of the Firearms Acts. John Thurso: The number of questions for oral answer The Scottish Parliament will be able to legislate in which were entered into the shuffle for each of the three relation to BB guns following the passage of the Scotland most recent question times for each Government Bill, subject to complying with any other relevant constraints Department and other answering body is shown in the on legislative competence. following table:

Department Date of Question Time Substantive Topical Total

Attorney-General Tuesday 1 March 21 — 21 165W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 166W

Department Date of Question Time Substantive Topical Total

Tuesday 18 January 46 — 46 Tuesday 30 November 41 — 41 Business, Innovation and Skills Thursday 17 February 145 130 275 Thursday 13 January 151 140 291 Thursday 18 November 145 115 260 Cabinet Office Wednesday 2 March 119 — 119 Wednesday 19 January 127 — 127 Wednesday 24 November 114 —- 114 Church Commissioners, Public Accounts Committee and Speaker’s Tuesday 1 March 14 — 14 Committee on the Electoral Commission Tuesday 18 January 15 — 15 Tuesday 30 November 15 — 15 Communities and Local Government Monday 28 February 126 115 241 Monday 17 January 119 102 221 Thursday 25 November 154 133 287 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sports Thursday 3 March 126 116 242 Thursday 20 January 122 105 227 Monday 29 November 114 94 208 Defence Monday 14 March 118 115 233 Monday 31 January 129 126 255 Monday 13 December 139 127 266 Deputy Prime Minister Tuesday 1 March 87 90 177 Tuesday 18 January 100 81 181 Tuesday 30 November 80 84 164 Education Monday 7 February 165 152 317 Monday 20 December 130 119 249 Monday 15 November 169 148 317 Energy and Climate Change Thursday 10 February 118 113 231 Thursday 16 December 80 70 150 Thursday 11 November 125 114 239 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Thursday 3 February 125 106 231 Thursday 9 December 117 105 222 Thursday 4 November 89 80 169 Foreign and Commonwealth Tuesday 1 February 189 161 350 Tuesday 14 December 165 159 324 Tuesday 9 November 173 111 284 Health Tuesday 8 March 155 132 287 Tuesday 25 January 159 152 311 Tuesday 7 December 162 154 316 Home Office Monday 7 March 145 120 265 Monday 24 January 215 186 401 Monday 6 December 176 172 348 International Development Wednesday 16 February 116 — 116 Wednesday 12 January 98 — 98 Wednesday 17 November 122 — 122 Justice Tuesday 15 February 133 117 250 Tuesday 11 January 55 67 122 Tuesday 23 November 111 102 213 Leader of the House, and House of Commons Commission Thursday 3 March 12 — 12 Thursday 20 January 28 — 28 Monday 29 November 10 — 10 Northern Ireland Wednesday 9 February 67 — 67 Wednesday 15 December 25 — 25 Wednesday 10 November 41 — 41 Prime Minister Wednesday 9 March 193 — 193 Wednesday 2 March 221 — 221 Wednesday 16 February 257 — 257 167W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 168W

Department Date of Question Time Substantive Topical Total

Scotland Wednesday 9 March 40 — 40 Wednesday 26 January 44 — 44 Wednesday 1 December 44 — 44 Transport Thursday 10 March 135 130 265 Thursday 27 January 147 117 264 Thursday 2 December 96 72 168 Treasury Tuesday 8 February 244 243 487 Tuesday 21 December 125 125 250 Tuesday 16 November 208 195 403 Wales Wednesday 2 February 62 — 62 Wednesday 8 December 45 — 45 Wednesday 3 November 40 — 40 Women and Equalities Thursday 10 March 88 — 88 Thursday 27 January 99 — 99 Thursday 2 December 95 — 95 Work and Pensions Monday 14 February 148 144 292 Monday 10 January 140 130 270 Monday 22 November 156 122 278

For departmental question times lasting one hour, The BBC’s obligations on impartiality are set out in 25 substantive and 10 topical questions are drawn in its charter and agreement. The details of the BBC the shuffle. Fewer questions are drawn for departments charter and agreement can be found at: and other answering bodies with shorter question http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/about/how_we_govern/ times. Fifteen questions are drawn for Prime Minister’s charter_and_agreement/ Questions. The role specification makes clear that the chairman In response to the hon. Member’s question the House of the BBC Trust is required to ensure that of Commons Table Office will now provide weekly “the BBC fulfils its responsibilities as outlined in the Royal information on the Intranet on the number of hon. Charter.” Members entered for each shuffle. Broadband CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Arts: Finance Anna Soubry: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will put in Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for place mechanisms to ensure the delivery of high- Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment quality on-demand content to households which do he has made of the effects on arts and cultural not wish or cannot afford to pay for subscription organisations of reduction in levels of expenditure by services. [21018] local authorities. [46992] Mr Vaizey: At present, we are satisfied with the Mr Jeremy Hunt: The Department’s strategic bodies, current arrangements which place an obligation on the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council, Arts public service broadcasters to make available high-quality Council England and English Heritage, are monitoring content and much of this can be accessed on-demand the effects of the local authority budget decisions on without any extra charge. People also need access to the arts and cultural organisations. We continue to monitor infrastructure to connect to on-demand services and we and assess proposals being made about changes to announced earlier this year our plans to create a broadband library services across England. Consideration by the infrastructure for our country that meets the needs of Secretary of State of whether or not any statutory all its citizens and businesses, and that will stand comparison powers should be used to assess an authority’s compliance with anywhere in the world. with the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 will be made on a case-by-case basis and after careful consideration of all relevant facts and local circumstances. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether tender documents BBC for further contracts to provide high-speed broadband services are to be issued by individual local authorities. Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, [46792] Olympics, Media and Sport if he will meet the Chairman-designate of the BBC Trust to discuss the requirements of that post in respect of the oversight of Mr Vaizey: Local authorities in England will be the BBC editorial guidelines relating to the UK’s procuring authority. In Scotland, Wales and Northern membership of the EU. [44955] Ireland the respective devolved Administration will be co-ordinating local interest and determining the appropriate Mr Jeremy Hunt: I have no plans to do so. level of procurement. 169W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 170W

Broadband: Lancashire Internet: Young People

Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympics, Media and Sport what discussions Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what consultation Broadband Delivery UK has had with Lancashire his Department is undertaking on steps to address county council on its issue of tender documents for a levels of internet addiction among young people. contract for the provision of high-speed broadband. [46418] [46970] Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport will not be undertaking any such Mr Vaizey: Broadband Delivery UK (BDUK) has consultation. had a number of discussions with Lancashire county council about their tender documents once we were Olympic Games 2012: Berkshire contacted and told of their intention to issue them. BDUK expects Lancashire county council to be submitting Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for a bid as part of the Wave 2 process which would be Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many considered in the same way as any other bid received as contracts relating to the London 2012 Olympics have part of this process. been awarded to businesses and organisations based in (a) Reading West constituency, (b) Reading and (c) Broadcasting: Advertising Berkshire; and what the monetary value is of each such contract. [46634] Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Hugh Robertson: Information on businesses in the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent south-east of England that have directly supplied assessment he has made of the contribution of the the Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) is available in broadcast advertising production sector to the the business section of the London 2012 website at the economy. [32384] following link: www.london2012.com/get-involved/business-network/oda- Mr Vaizey: We do not hold data on the economic suppliers/index.php contribution of the broadcast advertising production Currently 42 businesses have been awarded contracts sector. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport in Berkshire, with an estimated value of £ 17,456,470.35; Creative Industries Economic Estimates does provide of these, eight contracts were awarded to businesses in estimates of the advertising sector as a whole and the Reading with a value of £ 12,670,055.40 and four to latest data shows that the advertising sector contributed businesses in the Reading West constituency valuing 0.7% of total UK GVA in 2008. £1,387,094.58. These figures only account for the contracts awarded by the ODA to its own top tier of contractors Departmental Conditions of Employment (tier one contractors). The figures do not include the value of contracts further down the supply chain, in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for tiers two, three and so on, which are awarded by the tier Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment one contractors and not by the ODA. The ODA estimates he has made of his Department’s adherence to each of that the total value of supply chain contracts to the the principles of good employment practice set out in regions runs into millions of pounds, but these are not the Cabinet Office publication Principles of Good public procurements and so the full value of contracts won across the UK is not captured by the figures Employment Practice. [42615] provided. The ODA estimates that overall up to 50,000 contracts will be generated throughout its supply chains. Mr Jeremy Hunt: The Department for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport recognises the importance and value The London Organising Committee of the Olympic of good employment practices in delivering public services. and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) is a private company, The voluntary Principles of Good Employment Practice as such we do not record details of contracts awarded are expected to be relevant in circumstances where by LOCOG. Government’s employees transfer to the contractor’s work force. The principles were developed from discussions with trade unions and suppliers. In such circumstances, EDUCATION the Department should ensure that suppliers are aware of the principles and encourage application of the Academies principles. Rehman Chishti: To ask the Secretary of State for To date, no assessment has been made since the issue Education (1) by what date he expects schools graded of Procurement Policy Note: The Withdrawal of the good by Ofsted to be able to apply for academy status; Two-Tier Code Information Note 22/10 (17 December 2010). There will be a review of the application of the [39122] new principles through the Public Services Forum (2) what criteria he plans to use to determine the (PSF), a national forum chaired by the Minister for the schools which will be first to be invited to apply for Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. academy status; [39121] Member for Horsham (Mr Maude). The PSF brings (3) what account he plans to take of the (a) together Government, public, private and voluntary contextual value added by and (b) the financial sector employers and trade unions. The review will take position of a school in determining which schools are place during 2011. next to be invited to apply for academy status. [39120] 171W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 172W

Mr Gibb: We want to give all schools that wish to do issued on 20 January 2011, Official Report, column so the opportunity to become academies. Schools rated 47WS. Further detail is available in the remit for the as Outstanding and schools rated as Good with one or review which has been placed in the House Libraries. more Outstanding features in their most recent Ofsted inspection can already apply to become an academy in Education Maintenance Allowance their own right. All schools can apply as part of a chain where at least Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for one school in the chain is either outstanding or good Education pursuant to the answer of 14 February with outstanding features. In addition to the Ofsted 2011, Official Report, column 558W, on education inspection applications are considered according to a maintenance allowance: Ashton-in-Makerfield, for range of factors including whether there is a substantial what reason the education maintenance allowance was budget deficit and plans to support a weaker school. withdrawn before a full equality impact assessment was undertaken in respect of the replacement scheme. Children: Disability [41950]

Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb [holding answer 28 February 2011]: In reaching Education what funding will be available to local the decision to end the EMA scheme we focused on the authorities for the provision of disabled children’s evaluation evidence and other research, which indicates that EMA is not targeted on young people who most services in (a) 2011, (b) 2012 and (c) 2013. [27000] need financial support to enable them to participate in Sarah Teather: We have announced that £800 million education. of funding will be provided to local authorities through Discussions on distributional impacts, including impacts the new early intervention grant (EIG) over the spending on equality, informed the process for spending review review period (£198 million in 2011-12; £202 million in discussions and decisions, and the Department for 2012-13; £206 million in 2013-14; and £210 million in Education worked closely with HM Treasury to assess 2014-15). the impact on different sections of society. The new early intervention grant (EIG) has been set We are replacing the education maintenance allowance up to provide funding to local authorities to support with a new learner support fund so that we can target early intervention and preventative services for children, support more closely to those students facing genuine young people and their families. It is not ring fenced. financial barriers to participation. It will be for local authorities to determine how they A full equality impact assessment for the introduction use that resource to best effect, including what services of the new learner support funding will be published in would be funded for families with disabled children. due course, once final arrangements for the operation of the new fund have been developed. Connexions: Finance Education Maintenance Allowance: Somerset Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what funding his Department allocated to Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Connexions in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) Education how many students at Bridgwater college 2010-11. [40702] and Strode college (a) in total and (b) resident in Wells constituency receive weekly education Mr Gibb: The budget totals for Connexions are as maintenance allowance payments of (i) £10, (ii) £20 follows: and (iii) £30. [39224]

£ million Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education (a) 2008-09 468.732 maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. (b) 2009-10 466.732 Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written (c) 2010-11 466.732 to the hon. Member for Wells with the information requested and a copy of his reply has been placed in the Curriculum House Libraries. Letter from Peter Lauener dated 14 February 2011: Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question Education (1) which subjects will be considered under PQ39224 that asked: his Department’s National Curriculum review; [33677] “How many students at Bridgwater College and Strode College (2) who he has appointed to lead his Department’s (a) in total and (b) resident in Wells constituency receive weekly reviews of each National Curriculum subject; [33678] education maintenance allowance payments of (i) £10, (ii) £20 and (iii) £30.” (3) what arrangements are in place to encourage Information on the number of young people who have received members of the public to contribute to the National Education Maintenance Allowance (EMA) is available for upper Curriculum review. [33679] tier local authorities but not by constituency. EMA take-up is defined as young people who have received Mr Gibb [holding answer 18 January 2011]: Details one or more EMA payments in the academic year. of the review of the National Curriculum, including its The table below shows as at 25 January 2011 the take-up for scope, timetable and how it will be led and managed, the 2010/11 academic year in total and broken down by payment were given by the Secretary of State for Education, my bands for Bridgwater and Strode Colleges and Somerset Local right hon. Friend, in a written ministerial statement Authority. 173W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 174W

£40 million was made available to deliver the January As at 25 EMA January2011 Take-up £10 £20 £30 Guarantee. This included funding for 10,000 additional Entry to Employment places, education maintenance Bridgwater 1,862 141 (7.6%) 200 (10.7%) 1,521 allowance for those young people who were eligible, and College (81.7%) advice and support for young people to find a suitable Strode 703 52 (7.4%) 79 (11.2%) 572 (81.4%) College opportunity. The funding covered the costs incurred in Somerset LA 5,870 508 (8.6%) 644 (11%) 4,718 both the 2009-10 and 2010-11 financial years; for example, (80.4%) where young people were offered places that continued EMA take-up data showing the number of young people who beyond March 2010. have received one or more EMA payments during 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09 and 2009/10 is available on the YPLA Free Schools website at the following address: http://ema.ypla.gov.uk/resources/research/takeup/ Andy Burnham: To ask the Secretary of State for Education: Finance Education (1) how many staff of his Department (a) in total and (b) in full-time equivalent terms are assigned to the Free Schools Team; [37910] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Education for what purposes he has allocated funding (2) how many civil servants in his Department have from the public purse to (a) the Specialist Schools and been allocated to work on free schools. [37969] Academic Trust and (b) the National College for School Leadership; and what tasks have been Mr Gibb [holding answer 3 February 2011]: As at completed as a result of the provision of such funding. 15 February 2011, there are 97 people employed in the [40249] Free Schools Group. This is equivalent to 94.92 FTE (full-time equivalent) people. Mr Gibb [holding answer 11 February 2011]: The information is as follows: Further Education (a) The Specialist Schools and Academies Trust (SSAT) is an independent charity which derives its Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for income from a range of sources. The Department has Education if he will take steps to increase the number grant funded SSAT to support the Specialist Schools of 14 and 15-year-olds taking further education and Academies programmes. SSAT’s work has included courses; and if he will make a statement. [37037] helping schools to meet the standards of the Specialist Schools programme and developing networks of specialist Mr Gibb: We expect the vast majority of 14 and schools and academies. SSAT has also won a number of 15-year-olds to follow the National Curriculum and contracts from the Department in open competition. take GCSEs and, where appropriate, other qualifications These relate mainly to the provision of school improvement at level 2. In her report, published on 3 March, Professor services. Details of SSAT’s income from all sources are Alison Wolf recommended that the Government make available in SSAT’s published accounts, which are available explicit the legal right of further education colleges to on the Charity Commission website. enrol young people under 16, and ensure that funding (b) The National College website contains full details procedures make this practically possible. She also stressed of their activities and funding in annual reports and the importance of a core academic programme for all accounts for current and previous years, see: young people to the age of 16, regardless of the type of www.nationalcollege.org.uk educational institution they are attending. We are currently The college has three broad objectives: (i) to ensure a considering all of Professor Wolf’s recommendations strong supply of school leaders; (ii) to improve the and will publish a Government response in the spring. quality of school and children’s centres leadership, and (iii) to identify and deploy the best leaders to support Grammar Schools struggling schools. Evidence shows that: 150,000 leaders have participated in the college’s programmes Jonathan Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for since 2000, and that Education what recent estimate he has made of the schools which engage in the college’s programmes improve proportion of secondary school children who attend faster than those that do not, with the most engaged schools selective schools. [38009] improving fastest.

Employment Schemes: Young People Mr Gibb: In 2010, there were 164 wholly selective secondary schools in England. The percentage of all state-funded secondary school pupils attending these Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for schools was 4.9%. Education what funding his Department allocated to the January Guarantee in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11. [40701] Members: Correspondence

Mr Gibb: The January Guarantee offered any 16 or Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for 17-year-old who was not in education, employment or Education when he plans to respond to the letters from training (NEET) in January 2010 a place on an Entry to the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay of Employment Programme. The January Guarantee did 13 December 2010 and 12 January 2011 on his not operate in any other year. constituent Miss Hannah Kelly. [42810] 175W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 176W

Tim Loughton [holding answer 28 February 2011]: Fairness is at the heart of the Government’s agenda. The Minister of State for Children and Families, the Local authorities have a statutory duty—under section 7 hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), replied of the Childcare Act—to secure nursery places free of on 5 March. charge, effectively prohibiting top-up fees. This ensures that there are no barriers to accessing the benefits of Music: Education nursery education for all children, but particularly the most disadvantaged. Parents are free to purchase additional Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for hours and services outside of the hours for which Education what research his Department has (a) providers receive funding from local authorities. commissioned and (b) evaluated on a potential link Many providers up and down the country are offering between participation in music lessons and attainment an excellent service to parents and their children within in mathematics by children and young people. [38929] existing funding levels. The Government are listening to the views of early years providers and their representative Mr Gibb: Research commissioned by the Department bodies concerning funding issues. The Government are for Education from the Institute of Education shows seeking to improve the efficiency with which funding is that quality music education improves behaviour, attention distributed to providers, through the Early Years Single and concentration and has a hugely positive affect on Funding Formula (EYSFF) reforms, as well as reducing numeracy and language skills. From an analysis of bureaucratic burdens on providers who deliver free available evidence the Institute of Education concluded nursery education. Many providers will also be benefiting that active engagement with music can improve from other support that local authorities provide for mathematical performance. Ensuring all young people early learning and care. Providers will want to take into have the best possible music education will help the account this whole package of support before deciding Government achieve our twin aims of driving up standards whether delivering free places fits with their business and reducing the attainment gap. model. Postgraduate Education: Finance Pupil Numbers: Home Education Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Education when he intends to inform providers of Education pursuant to the answer of 24 January 2011, Postgraduate Certificate of Education courses of the Official Report, column 26W, on home education: (a) funding and (b) criteria for funding for the year Durham, if he will put in place a mechanism to collect beginning in September 2011. [33292] information on the number of home-schooled children. Mr Gibb: The Secretary of State for Education, my [43142] right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath (Michael Mr Gibb: We are still considering in detail our approach Gove), wrote to the Training and Development Agency to home education and whether any changes need to be for Schools (TDA) on 31 January 2011 to notify them made to the existing arrangements. of the national initial teacher training place allocations and financial incentive arrangements for trainees for Pupils: Disadvantaged academic year 2011/12. We have confirmed that eligible graduates starting Postgraduate Certificate in Education Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for (PGCE) courses in that academic year will receive £9,000 Education with reference to the Young People’s training bursaries in the subjects of physics, chemistry, Learning Agency 16 - 19 Funding Statement, which engineering and mathematics and £6,000 bursaries in areas will be entitled to the £150 million additional biology, combined/general science and modern foreign funding for young people in disadvantaged areas in languages. 2011-12; and to how much funding each area will be The TDA has now given initial teacher training providers entitled. [38658] the details of their training place allocations for 2011/12. Mr Gibb: The £150 million of redirected funding will Pre-school Education: Finance help increase the total funding in the national funding formula which addresses student deprivation to almost Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of £770 million in 2011/12; an increase of more than State for Education what recent discussions he has had one-third from 2010/11. This funding will be allocated with representatives of (a) playgroups and (b) through the disadvantage uplift and Additional Learner providers of early years care on their ability to provide Support elements of the funding formula. It is not each child with 15 hours of care a week; if he will possible at present to say which geographical areas, or assess the merits of allowing such providers to request how much each area, will receive of this deprivation top-up payments from parents to cover any additional funding as this will not be known until the funding costs; and if he will make a statement. [30595] allocations for 2011/12 are finalised and communicated to providers by the end of March. Sarah Teather [holding answer 14 December 2010]: Good quality early education helps tackle disadvantage Mr Raynsford: To ask the Secretary of State for and improve children’s life chances. We announced in Education what consideration he has given to the spending review that funding has been protected so allocating funding through the pupil premium to that all three and four-year-olds will continue to receive schools in which a significant proportion of children 15 hours per week of free nursery education, and that are members of families whose leave to remain in the this will be extended to every disadvantaged two-year-old UK precludes them from recourse to public funds. from 2013. [39443] 177W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 178W

Mr Gibb: The deprivation pupil premium for 2011-12 non-academy school named in the further list will be allocated to local authorities and schools with published on 6 August 2010. [41215] pupils that are known to be eligible for free school meals as recorded on the January 2011 school census, Mr Gibb: The question requests details of schools pupil referral unit census and alternative provision census. (a) authorised and (b) funded since the statement of Each pupil known to be eligible for free school meals 5 July 2010, Official Report, columns 47-73. Project will attract £430 of funding which will go to the school authorisation is confirmed through the approval of the or academy, via the local authority or YPLA if the final business case, at which point a promissory note is pupil is in a mainstream setting, or will be managed by issued. This is also the point at which the funding is the responsible local authority if the pupil is in a finalised and agreed. non-mainstream setting. We aim to extend the coverage of the pupil premium from 2012-13 onwards to pupils We have therefore defined (a) and (b) as the approval who have previously been known to be eligible for free of schools at final business case after 5 July 2010 that school meals. have been given a commitment to fund through a Children whose parents are in receipt of one of the promissory note. following are entitled to receive free school meals and, There are 80 non-academy schools that have been as a result, will be eligible for the pupil premium: given such approval and information is provided as Income support (IS) follows. Some schools have been renamed since the Income based job seeker’s allowance (IBJSA) publication of details on 12 July 2010. The table is correct as at 11 February 2011 and reflects the current An income-related employment and support allowance name of each school. Support under part VI of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 Child tax credit (provided they are not entitled to working tax Authority School name credit) and have an annual income which from 6 April 2010 does not exceed £16,190 as assessed by Her Majesty’s Revenue Barking and Dagenham Dagenham Park Church Of England School and Customs1 Barking and Dagenham Sydney Russell School Guarantee element of state pension credit. Barnsley New School—Kingstone/Holgate Children who receive IS or IBJSA in their own right Barnsley New School—Foulstone/Wombwell are also entitled to receive free school meals. Barnsley St Michael’s Faith Advanced Learning Centre Birmingham The International School and Community College We have considered what other criteria might be used East Birmingham for allocating the pupil premium within the necessary Birmingham Park View Business and Enterprise School timeframe. Determining eligibility for families who do Birmingham Saltley School—A specialist science college not have recourse to public funds is not currently feasible Blackburn Witton Park High School due to legal and cost barriers in accessing data concerning Blackburn Blakewater College and Crosshill Special School such families in a useable format. If the family has no Blackpool Highfield Humanities College recourse to public funds and is unable to claim free Blackpool Mountford Centre school meals then they will not be eligible for the pupil Blackpool St Mary’s Catholic College premium. Camden South Camden Community 1 Where a parent is entitled to working tax credit during the Camden Swiss Cottage Special School four-week period immediately after their employment ceases, or Derby City Derby Moor after they start to work less than 16 hours per week, their children Derby City Noel Baker are entitled to free school lunches. Derby City St Martin’s Durham St Bede’s Catholic Comprehensive School and Pupils: Per Capita Costs Byron College Ealing Cardinal Wiseman Roman Catholic School Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Ealing Dormers Wells High School Education what estimate he has made of the average Greenwich Plumstead Manor level of funding per pupil in (a) Barnet local education Greenwich Eltham Hill authority area and (b) London in 2011-12. [40641] Hackney Haggerston Hackney Cardinal Pole (RC) Mr Gibb: In 2011-12, Barnet will receive a guaranteed Hackney Our Lady Convent unit of funding per pupil of £5,642, including £725 for Hartlepool Dyke House Sports and Technology College specific grants that have been mainstreamed into the Hertfordshire Lonsdale School Dedicated Schools Grant (DSG). The London average Hertfordshire Marriotts guaranteed unit of funding per pupil is £6,290. Hertfordshire The Noble School The final DSG allocations for local authorities will Islington Elizabeth Garrett Anderson be based on the January 2011 pupil count and will be Islington Islington Arts and Media published in summer 2011. Knowsley New SEN Facility to replace Springfield and Elms special Schools Schools: Capital Investment Knowsley Highfield SEN Lambeth Dunraven (Foundation Mixed) Secondary School Lambeth Lilian Bayliss Mr Gale: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Lambeth Norwood which schools other than academies had rebuilding Leeds Corpus Christi (RC) + SILC programmes (a) authorised and (b) funded since his Leeds Farnley Park High + SILC statement to the House on 5 July 2010, Official Report, Lewisham Addey and Stanhope columns 47-73, and the publication of further details Lewisham Deptford Green on 12 July 2010; and if he will include details for each 179W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 180W

pupil places and to address their capital maintenance Authority School name needs in 2011-12. Details of these allocations by each Lewisham Prendergast—Hilly Fields College local authority area can be found on the Department’s Lewisham Prendergast—Vale College website. Further allocations will be made for 2012-13 Lewisham Bonus Pastor RC until 2014-15 in the light of the outcome of the capital Lewisham New ASD School (Pendragon) review which the Secretary of State launched last year Luton Ashcroft High and which is expected to report shortly. Luton Lealands In addition to the funding already announced, funding Manchester Inclusion Centre(s)/PRU (Gorton EV, Chorlton, Burnage, Newall Green Inclusion Centres) will be provided, for example, for those Building Schools Middlesbrough Oakfields Community School for the Future and academy projects that are continuing, Newham Langdon to ensure the projects’ completion. North Lincolnshire FTC Performing Arts College Oldham New RC School (The Blessed John Henry Newman Schools: Vocational Guidance RC College) Oldham North Chadderton Sandwell Alexandra High Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Sandwell Batman’s Hill PRU Education what mechanism he plans to establish to Sandwell North KS3 PRU ensure that schools deliver a professional and Sandwell Oldbury individualised careers services to pupils seeking to Sandwell Wodensborough enter higher education. [25142] Sheffield City Sheffield Fir Vale Mr Hayes: The coalition Government are committed Sheffield King Edward VII Lower to improving the quality and consistency of information Sheffield King Edward VII Upper for prospective university students. We want applicants Sheffield Stocksbridge to be able to easily understand what a course will cost, Somerset Chilton Trinity what it will contain and where it might lead. To ensure Somerset Elmwood pupils make well-informed choices about their options Somerset Robert Blake at 18, they need access to impartial careers advice that is Southwark Sacred Heart—Southwark independent of any organisation with a vested interest Southwark Spa and underpinned by objective information and data. Southwark St Thomas the Apostle College That is why schools working in partnership with expert, St Helens De La Salle School independent careers advisers will be at the heart of our St Helens Rainford High Technology College new arrangements for careers guidance. Both strong Stoke Reach Short Stay School (Trent Vale) leadership and a work force of the highest calibre are Tower Hamlets Bowden House needed to guarantee a consistent level of professional Tower Hamlets PRU-Tower Hamlets expertise. We are therefore working with the Careers Tower Hamlets Raines Foundation Profession Alliance to establish common professional Tower Hamlets Swanlea standards and a code of ethics and to ensure that Westminster College Park careers qualifications include an appropriate focus on Wolverhampton Coppice Performing Arts School the essentials of careers guidance. Wolverhampton Wednesfield High School Wolverhampton The Braybrook Centre Students: Finance

Schools: Finance Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what the average cost to the public purse of Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for educating a pupil in (a) England and (b) London was Education on what date he expects his Department’s in each of the last three years. [40420] capital expenditure in schools from March 2012 to be published. [36422] Mr Gibb: The available information is shown in the following table. Mr Gibb: The Department expects to publish school Net school-based expenditure (excluding pre-primary) per pupil in England and capital allocations for 2012-13 by December. Details of local authorities in London from 2007-08 to 2009-10 allocations from 2012-13 will depend on the outcome of Total school-based expenditure (excluding pre-primary) per pupil the Capital Review, but overall allocations are expected 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 to be broadly in line with those for 2011-12. England 4,210 4,460 4,610 Barking and 4,710 4,920 5,010 Mr Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Dagenham Education how much capital funding has been Barnet 4,620 4,900 5,160 allocated by his Department for school building, repair Bexley 4,180 4,520 4,590 and maintenance to each local authority area in each Brent 4,990 5,350 5,460 year from 2011-12 to 2015-16. [42850] Bromley 4,070 4,300 4,480 Camden 5,900 6,220 6,430 Mr Gibb: On 13 December 2010, the Secretary of City of London 6,240 7,530 6,890 State for Education announced over £2 billion of capital Croydon 4,340 4,620 4,750 allocations to local authorities and schools for new Ealing 4,810 4,970 5,270 181W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 182W

Net school-based expenditure (excluding pre-primary) per pupil in England and Teaching Methods: Peterborough local authorities in London from 2007-08 to 2009-10 Total school-based expenditure (excluding pre-primary) per pupil Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 for Education what assessment he has made of the performance in (a) Peterborough and (b) other Enfield 4,670 4,990 5,150 locations of the (i) Every Child Counts and (ii) Every Greenwich 5,370 5,870 5,850 Child a Reader programme; and if he will make a Hackney 5,890 6,470 6,490 statement. [46317] Hammersmith 5,550 5,820 6,060 and Fulham Haringey 5,130 5,500 5,690 Mr Gibb: We have not carried out analysis on a local Harrow 4,560 4,770 4,940 authority basis of the Every Child a Reader (ECaR) Havering 4,320 4,450 4,620 and Every Child Counts (ECC) programmes. Hillingdon 4,650 4,830 4,970 Regular management information on the programmes Hounslow 4,700 4,970 5,080 is collected and shared by the Institute of Education Islington 5,600 6,140 6,450 and Edge Hill university, who deliver training for ECaR Kensington and 5,940 6,240 6,220 and ECC respectively. Edge Hill university has recently Chelsea published its annual management report on ECC at: Kingston-upon- 4,470 4,620 4,770 Thames http://www.edgehill.ac.uk/everychildcounts/general/ Impact.html Lambeth 5,710 6,210 6,640 Lewisham 5,480 5,880 6,070 Independent evaluations are currently under way for Merton 4,220 4,550 4,640 both programmes, with final reports expected to be Newham 5,170 5,580- 5,810 with the Department by the end of March. Redbridge 4,310 4,550 4,700 Richmond-upon- 4,300 4,470 4,560 Vocational Education Review Thames Southwark 5,860 6,160 6,390 Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Sutton 4,220 4,420 4,590 Education with reference to his letter of 9 September Tower Hamlets 6,540 6,990 7,070 2010 to Alison Wolf, what plans he has to publish Waltham Forest 4,870 5,100 5,290 Alison Wolf’s interim report on vocational education. Wandsworth 5,640 6,100 6,240 [34873] Westminster 5,460 5,780 5,890 Notes: 1. School-based expenditure includes only expenditure incurred directly by the Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for schools. This includes the pay of teachers and school-based support staff, Education by what date he expects the Wolf Review of school premises costs, books and equipment, and certain other supplies and [41379] services, less any capital items funded from recurrent spending and income vocational education to report. from sales, fees and charges and rents and rates. This excludes the central cost of support services such as home to school transport, local authority Mr Gibb: The Wolf Review of Vocational Education administration and the financing of capital expenditure. 2. Pupil numbers include only those pupils attending maintained reported on 3 March 2011. The Government are very establishments within each sector and are drawn from the DfE annual schools grateful to Professor Wolf for such a valuable piece of census adjusted to be on a financial year basis. work. We are now considering her recommendations 3. Financial information used in this answer is taken from the DfE section 251 outturn statements. and will publish a formal response this spring. 4. Figures are rounded to the nearest £10. Cash terms figures as reported by local authorities as at 14 February 2011. Vocational Guidance

Teachers: Training Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps he plans to take to monitor the quality of careers advice procured by schools for young Ian Swales: To ask the Secretary of State for people. [39554] Education what plans he has for in-school teacher training; and if he will take steps to safeguard the Mr Gibb: Through the Education Bill, schools will be Graduate Teach scheme in Tees Valley district. [38350] placed under a duty to secure access to independent, impartial careers guidance for all pupils aged 13 to 16. Mr Gibb [holding answer 4 February 2011]: The A new national quality standard for careers guidance Secretary of State for Education wrote to the Training providers will serve as an indicator of quality for schools and Development Agency for Schools (TDA) on 31 January who will be free to determine how best to fulfil the new 2011 to notify them of the national initial teacher duty, based on their understanding of the needs of their training place targets for academic year 2011/12. The pupils. TDA has written to training providers with detailed We will put in place a strong accountability system to allocations for 2011/12 including those for the Graduate ensure that schools are helping all their pupils to prepare Teacher Programme in the Tees Valley. These allocations for successful progress post-16. We are reforming have seen small increases for both the primary and performance tables to remove perverse incentives for secondary phases. As set out in the Schools White schools to encourage pupils to pursue courses that are Paper 2010, ‘The Importance of Teaching’, our intention of little or no value. In addition, we are developing a is that there should be an increasing emphasis on school-led Key Stage 4 Destination Measure to show young people training, for example through Teach First and Teaching and parents what a school’s former pupils go on to do at Schools. age 17. 183W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 184W

Written Questions: Government Responses Mr Blunt: Probation staff are employed by the 35 probation trusts. As such, actual pay is set by a Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for combination of a local trust’s pay scale, and the level of Education when he plans to answer question 42085, on experience of the individual member of staff. regulations, tabled on 16 February 2011 for answer on 28 February 2011. [46989] Further, trusts decide which grades of staff are responsible for the delivery of unpaid work. Tim Loughton: A response to the hon. Member’s NOMS does not collect information on average pay question was issued on 14 March 2011, Official Report, rates for the supervision of unpaid work on a consistent columns 44-46W. basis.

JUSTICE Criminal Injuries Compensation

Civil Proceedings: Legal Costs Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he plans to bring forward proposals for reform of Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the criminal injuries compensation scheme. [46971] Justice for what reasons he has not accepted the recommendations of Sir Rupert Jackson and others to Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Criminal Injuries Compensation abrogate the indemnity principle in response to the Scheme is currently subject to review. consultation on the Green Paper, Proposals for Reform of Civil Litigation Funding and Costs in England and We will bring forward proposals once the review has Wales; and if he will reverse his decision. [46207] been concluded. Mr Djanogly: As indicated in the Ministry of Justice Departmental Land consultation paper ‘Proposals for Reform of Civil Litigation Funding and Costs in England and Wales—Implementation Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of Lord Justice Jackson’s Recommendations’, published if he will takes steps to reduce the size of his on 15 November 2010, the Government are not persuaded Department’s estate; and if he will make a statement. that it is necessary to abrogate the indemnity principle [45893] and are therefore not proposing any further work on it at this stage. Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) is reducing Community Orders the size of its estate in order to provide flexibility in the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State way that people work and help reduce costs. There are a for Justice what the average hourly cost to the public number of projects currently under way, including: purse is of supervising an individual on unpaid work reducing the size of the Department’s Estate by decreasing the on (a) Mondays to Fridays (i) during the day and (ii) number of central London HQ buildings from 18 to 4; during the evening, (b) Saturdays and (c) Sundays in the closure of HMP Lancaster Castle and HMP Ashwell and respect of (A) group and (B) individual placements. the change of use of HMP Morton Hall to an immigration [45965] removal centre (IRC); the closure of 142 magistrates and county courts, which will Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service significantly reduce the court service estate; (NOMS) is developing systems to breakdown current the reduction of the probation estate by taking advantage of expenditure on a service by service basis, including lease breaks to exit properties and consolidate staff into a smaller unpaid work (also known as community payback). number of buildings, and encouraging co-location of other related Once the information has been reviewed and validated, departments and flexible work space arrangements. we will then consider how best to use it to meet commitments under the Government’s Transparency Disability Living Allowance: Tribunals Agenda. The NOMS Specification, Benchmarking and Costing Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for (SBC) Programme is creating specifications to be used Justice how many appeal tribunal cases relating to in commissioning the services NOMS funds. This includes disability living allowance were heard in (a) Reading work to support benchmarking by estimating how much West constituency, (b) Reading and (c) Berkshire in it should cost to deliver each service. each of the last 10 years. [46629] Using fieldwork undertaken in 2009, the average approximate hourly cost of supervising an individual Mr Djanogly: The Tribunals Service only holds data sentenced to unpaid work, excluding the cost of relating to its Social Security and Child Support (SSCS) commencing the sentence, and rounded to the nearest jurisdiction from and including the 2007/8 business pound, is estimated to be: year. Prior to this date, the information was held on the For group placements, £9 on weekdays (average of daytime SSCS’s previous case management system and is no and evenings) and £11 on weekends, and for individual placements, longer accessible to the Tribunals Service. The data £5 per hour irrespective of the timing of the placement. from 2007-08 is recorded against the tribunal venue More information, including an explanation of how where an appeal is heard. these figures are derived of is available at: The number of DLA appeals heard in (b) Reading is http://www.justice.gov.uk/about/directory-services.htm shown in the following table. The number of appeals Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State held in (c) Berkshire is the same as (b) as Reading is for Justice what the average hourly pay rate is of the only SSCS tribunal venue in this county. supervisors of unpaid work in (a) London and (b) the Appeals for people living in Reading and in Berkshire rest of England and Wales. [45966] are not necessarily heard in Reading. 185W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 186W

Disability living allowance cases heard in Reading Employment Tribunals Service Number

April 2007 33 Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice May 2007 45 how many employment tribunal cases were heard in June 2007 51 each region between 2008 and 2010. [46020] July 2007 31 August 2007 26 September 2007 34 Mr Djanogly: The information in the following table October 2007 21 shows the number of jurisdictional cases that were November 2007 27 heard in each employment tribunal office and region for December 2007 22 the complete financial years 2008-09, 2009-10 and the January 2008 28 quarters 1 and 2 of 2010-11 (April-September 2010). February 2008 21 For the purposes of this question, the term ‘hearing’ March 2008 22 includes case management discussions, pre-hearing reviews, 2007-08 361 merits hearings, review hearings and, where necessary, remedy hearings.

April 2008 18 Number of employment tribunal cases by region May 2008 22 Hearings Northern region June 2008 16 2008-09 2009-10 2010-111 July 2008 23 August 2008 20 September 2008 25 Midlands October 2008 19 Birmingham 3,400 3,900 2,100 November 2008 11 Leicester2 820 930 500 December 2008 17 Nottingham2 1,300 1,100 120 January 2009 21 Shrewsbury 720 270 13 February 2009 16 Area total 6,200 6,300 2,800 March 2009 17 2008-09 225 North East and North West Leeds 2,200 2,400 1,200 April 2009 16 Liverpool 1,300 1,300 630 May 2009 25 Manchester 3,000 3,500 1,600 June 2009 14 Newcastle 3,800 3,900 1,800 July 2009 17 Sheffield 720 950 520 August 2009 17 Area total 11,000 12,100 5,800 September 2009 26 October 2009 22 Scotland November 2009 42 Aberdeen 290 390 220 December 2009 25 Dundee 220 280 170 January 2010 26 Edinburgh 550 710 370 February 2010 24 Glasgow 1,700 1,900 1,000 March 2010 37 Area total 2,800 3,300 1,800 2009-10 291 Regional total 20,100 21,700 10,300 April 10 2 May 2010 13 Hearings June 2010 16 Southern region 2008-09 2009-10 2010-111 July 2010 20 August 2010 19 Central London September 2010 32 London Central 3,500 3,600 1,800 October 2010 11 Area total 3,500 3,600 1,800 November 2010 16 December 2010 22 Greater London and January 2011 23 South East Ashford 960 1,100 620 2010-11 174 Bedford 860 1,100 500 Bury St Edmunds 880 1,000 470 The Tribunals Service can provide data for the number London South 2,700 2,900 1,500 of DLA appeals where the appellant gave an address in Reading 1,000 1,300 740 the Reading (RG) postcode area. It will take approximately East London 1,400 1,500 960 one week for this data to be extracted from the database Watford 1,500 1,900 1,100 and when this information is complete, the data will be Area total 9,200 10,900 5,900 placed in the Library of the House. 187W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 188W

and HMRC on benefits and employment. This data Hearings share is currently developmental but it is hoped that it Southern region will be published and made available later in 2011. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-111

Wales and South Prison Accommodation West Bristol 1,300 1,700 940 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Wales 1,300 1,900 1,100 what size of prison population is required to trigger Exeter 1,100 1,300 630 Operation Safeguard. [46972] Southampton 1,600 1,700 1,100 Area total 5,300 6,600 3,700 Mr Blunt: Operation Safeguard is required when the size or distribution of the prison population is such that Regional total 18,000 21,100 11,400 it can no longer be managed within the available capacity. Pressures in managing the population arise from a GB total 38,000 42,800 21,800 number of factors. These include the size of particular 1 2010-11 data are for quarters 1 and 2 (April-September 2010) 2 The figures provided may include certain discrepancies in respect of the demographic sections of the prison population and Nottingham and Leicester offices because different databases were being used capacity available to accommodate those segments, the to collate data at different times. geographic distribution of population between regions Rounding: Figures in the table are rounded independently and thus may not add to totals. and NOMS ability to transfer prisoners to maximise The following conventions have been used: the use of space, and whether there are any sudden local Values less than 100 remain as unit values; increases in population or losses of accommodation. As Values from 100 to 999 are rounded to the nearest 10; Values of 1,000 and over are rounded to the nearest 100. the total population approaches within approximately Source: 1% of the prison estate’s useable operational capacity, ET Central database March 2011 the risk of potentially requiring police cells under Operation Magistrates Courts: Closures Safeguard increases and more rigorous assessment of population pressures are required. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he expects to lay before Parliament an Order to Prisoners: Finance provide for the merging of magistrates benches in England. [47084] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prisoners were on the (a) basic, (b) Mr Djanogly: I expect to lay such an Order in late standard and (c) enhanced tier of the Incentives and April. Earned Privileges scheme (IEP) in each of the last five Members: Correspondence years; what the cost to the public purse was of operating the scheme in each such year; and how many Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice prisoners were (a) not on, (b) ineligible for and (c) when he plans to reply to the letter of 18 February 2011 removed from the scheme in each such year. [46836] from the right hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood, on retrospective limited compensation to Mr Blunt: The numbers of prisoners on each level of victims of terrorism abroad, including Nigel Pike. the Incentives and Earned Privileges scheme (IEPS) for [46422] the last five years is set out in the following table below. The data is drawn from different systems and also Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have received this correspondence represents an average therefore the figures do not precisely and will reply shortly. match population figures. However, they do provide an indication at national level of the operation of IEPS. Offenders: Berkshire Basic Standard Enhanced Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what proportion of offenders released from 2005-06 1134 44121 28997 prison who are resident in (a) Reading West 2006-07 1133 44808 30519 constituency, (b) Reading, (c) Berkshire and (d) 2007-08 1350 45510 31098 England (i) entered employment and (ii) claimed 2008-09 1317 46103 32272 out-of-work benefits within six months of release in 2009-10 1398 45375 34482 each of the last 10 years. [46598] The national policy framework is set out in Prison Mr Blunt: Information on offender’s employment Service Order (PSO) 4000 Incentives Earned Privileges and benefit status post sentence is not collected centrally. (available in the Library of the House). Prison governors The Ministry of Justice, the Department for Work and have devolved responsibility to devise their own local Pensions and HM Revenue and Customs have established scheme to meet the needs of the prison regime. The a joint data sharing project to produce similar statistics scheme is an integral part of prisoner management and to help policy development to improve employment the costs of operating it cannot be separately identified. outcomes and reduce reoffending. The IEPS applies to all prisoners but governors may The aim of this one-off project is to get a better exempt from the scheme prisoners who have progressed understanding of reoffending and long-term outcomes onto a structured resettlement programme for whom for offenders by linking MoJ administrative data from other forms of incentive will apply. No prisoners are the police national computer (PNC) extract and prisons removed from the scheme but they may have certain and probation data to administrative data from DWP privileges removed for a specified period as a punishment. 189W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 190W

Prisoners: Gender Recognition £ million Probation trust/ Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Area (board) 2009-10 2010-11 Justice pursuant to the answer of 3 March 2011, Official Report, column 578W, on prisoners: gender Wales Wales 26 54 recognition, which (a) internal and (b) external Dyfed Powys 9 1— stakeholders were consulted on Prison Service Gwent 12 1— Instruction 07/2011 on the care and management of North Wales 12 1— transsexual prisoners; and how the external stakeholders were selected. [46343] Yorks and Humberside 19 18 Mr Blunt: Operational staff and relevant policy teams Humberside York and North 10 10 within the National Offender Management Service were Yorkshire consulted on Prison Service Instruction 07/2011 on the South Yorkshire 26 25 care and management of transsexual prisoners. Officials within the Ministry of Justice, Home Office, Department West Yorkshire 44 42 of Health, and Government Equalities Office were also consulted. North West Cheshire 15 15 The following external stakeholders were consulted: Cumbria 9 9 operators of contracted prisons; unions; HM Chief Greater 53 51 Inspector of Prisons; Equality and Human Rights Manchester Commission; Gender Trust; Beaumont Society. Lancashire 24 23 The external stakeholders either asked to be part of Merseyside 33 32 the consultation or were selected on the basis of potential interest in the Instruction. West Midlands Warwickshire 7 7 West Mercia 15 15 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Staffordshire and 59 72 Justice pursuant to the answer of 3 March 2011, West Midlands Official Report, column 578W, on prisoners: gender Staffordshire 17 1— recognition, what plans he has for the implementation of Prison Service Instruction 07/2011 on the care and management of transsexual prisoners, including East of England Bedfordshire 10 9 associated training for staff; and what timetable he has Cambridgeshire 10 10 set for implementation. [46344] Essex 21 19 Mr Blunt: Prison Service Instruction 07/2011 on the Hertfordshire 12 11 care and management of transsexual prisoners was Norfolk and 12 21 issued on 2 March 2011. Establishments must comply Suffolk with the instruction from 14 March 2011. Suffolk 11 4 The instruction is intended to be self-explanatory and there will be no specific training about it for staff. East Midlands Derbyshire 15 14 The relevant policy teams at National Offender Leicestershire 15 15 Management Service headquarters are available to provide Lincolnshire 9 9 advice. Establishments may identify a need for more general training about gender reassignment and the Northamptonshire 9 9 prevention of transphobia for staff working with transsexual Nottinghamshire 20 19 prisoners and this will be provided by the relevant policy teams or sourced from external providers as South West Avon and 20 20 necessary. Somerset Devon and 21 19 Probation: Finance Cornwall Dorset 10 9 Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the planned expenditure is for each Gloucestershire 8 8 probation trust in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11, (c) Wiltshire 9 8 2011-12, (d) 2012-13 and (e) 2013-14. [46459] Mr Blunt: The following table provides expenditure London London 152 146 for each probation trust/board in 2009-10 and forecast expenditure for 2010-11. South East Hampshire 25 25 Kent 22 22 £ million Sussex 19 1— Probation trust/ Area (board) 2009-10 2010-11 Surrey and 10 28 Sussex North East Durham Tees 11 23 Thames Valley 26 27 Valley Teesside 14 1— 911 875 1 Northumbria 31 29 Indicates a merged trust. 191W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 192W

The National Offender Management Service is currently (4) what his policy is on young adult offenders in the in the process of finalising budget allocations for 2011-12. secure estate. [45853] Given the demanding settlement the department received we are continuing to finalise our savings plans for the Mr Blunt: Young adults sentenced to detention in a remainder of the SR period, once we have completed young offender institution (DYOI) are detained in young this process we will look to provide firm business group offender institutions (YOIs) as required by section 98 of allocations for the future years of the SR period—this the Powers of the Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. is likely to include the overall funding envelope for These are normally self-contained but in some instances probation. are situated within an adult prison with which they share the majority of their facilities. Whatever the location, Victims: Crime young adults detained in YOIs have separate sleeping accommodation and are always managed in accordance Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice with the YOI rules. (1) what arrangements are in place to provide support We are committed to retaining specific provision and advice to UK citizens who are the victims of crime within the secure estate for young adult offenders. Our in other EU member states; and if he will make a “Breaking the Cycle Green Paper” (consultation closed statement; [46974] 4 March), sets out a broad reform agenda to drive (2) what discussions he has had on support for improved results for all offenders in the secure estate, victims of crime who are UK citizens travelling in other including young adults. EU member states; and if he will make a statement. Prison capacity and the role and function of individual [46975] establishments are kept under review to ensure that the prison estate is best configured to meet population Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice is the lead Department needs as effectively and efficiently as possible. Consideration for the provision of support for within the UK and for of changes to the different roles of individual establishments EU victim policy. The Foreign and Commonwealth within the overall estate is undertaken on an ongoing Office provide consular assistance to UK citizens who basis. are the victims of crime in other EU member states. In the last three years, two establishments have been There are two main pieces of European Union legislation re-roled from young offender institutions to adult training in place in relation to support for victims of crime. The prisons: YOIs Castington and Huntercombe were re-roled 2001 Framework Decision on the standing of victims in in 2010 following the decommissioning of places at criminal proceedings, which requires member states to these establishments by the Youth Justice Board. ensure a minimum level of support to victims irrespective of the member state in which they are and the 2004 directive on cross-border co-operation on criminal injuries Youth Offending Teams compensation. The directive requires all member states to have a compensation scheme for victims of “intentional Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice violent crime”and ensures that compensation is accessible what assessment he has made of the potential effect of regardless of where in the EU a person becomes a reductions to youth offending team budgets on levels of victim of crime by creating a system of co-operation reoffending and antisocial behaviour involving young between national authorities. people in each local authority area; and if he will make The Ministry of Justice is currently engaged in a statement. [46977] negotiations on a proposed directive to combat the sexual abuse, sexual exploitation of children and child Mr Blunt: No specific assessment has been made by pornography which includes proposals which provides central Government of the effect of potential budget for a range of support and assistance to address the reductions on youth reoffending and antisocial behaviour need of child victims during and after criminal proceedings in each local authority area. The European Commission is due to propose a package It is for local areas to use their resources in the most of measures relating to victims of crime in May 2011. effective way to meet local priorities. The proposals set This will include a directive that will replace the 2001 out in the Ministry of Justice Green Paper in December Framework Decision. The Ministry of Justice responded are intended to incentivise local authorities to take on to a consultation held by the European Commission to fuller responsibility for young people in the justice inform the content of the proposals and we are having system. Through payment by results mechanisms, we preliminary discussions with our EU counterparts. will reward those areas that invest in the kind of prevention and rehabilitation work that is effective at stopping Young Offender Institutions offending.

Karl Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) what assessment he has made of provision for 18 to what criteria he used to allocate resources for youth 20-year-old young offenders in the secure estate; and if offending teams over the comprehensive spending he will make a statement; [45762] review period; and if he will make a statement. [46978] (2) whether he has any plans to assign any existing capacity within the young adult young offender Mr Djanogly: The following criteria will be used for institution secure estate for use by all adults; [45763] calculating funding for YouthOffending Teams in 2011-12. (3) which young adult young offender institutions The YJB is in the process of consulting with funding have been assigned to the adult secure estate in each of Departments and Youth Offending Teams to establish a the last three years; [45764] revised funding formula to be implemented from 2012-13. 193W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 194W

The Core Grant Formula ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The “core” funding pot is split into two: 5/90ths to an Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund overall Welsh pot and 85/90ths to an English pot—this is referred to as the “Barnett” formula. Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for The “Funding Formulae” is then applied to allocate Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will funding to English and Welsh YOTs. Two different reverse her decision to withdraw the Aggregates Levy formulas are used, one for England and one for Wales. Sustainability Fund. [46987] Each formula takes into account the following factors: For English YOTs: Richard Benyon: The decision to withdraw the Aggregates 50% of the formula is based on six summary indicators taken Levy Sustainability Fund (ALSF) will not be reversed; from the Index of Multiple Deprivation 2004, published by the the ALSF programme of work will indeed be discontinued Department for Communities and Local Government. The six after the financial year ending 31 March 2011. This indicators include the following: decision was taken as part of the spending review Extent—Proportion of a YOT’s population living in the wards settlement in October 2010 in a very tight spending which rank within the most deprived 10% of wards in the country. context where we had to look very carefully across all Local Concentration—Local Concentration is the population the Department’s priorities to see where we can make weighted average of the ranks of a YOT’s most deprived wards best use of available funds. that contain exactly 10% of the YOT’s population. In 2011-12 the Department will fund a very modest Average SOA Score—Population weighted average of the combined and short-term legacy project to help ensure that the scores for the wards in a YOT. findings from the £60 million already invested in ALSF Average SOA Rank—Population weighted average of the combined research and development are accessible to those who ranks for the wards in a YOT. can put them into practice and achieve the potential Number of Employment Deprived—The Employment Scale improvements in environmental performance. This will score is a count of the numbers of individuals experiencing involve bringing together material across numerous research employment deprivation. reports and websites into a professional website tool Number of Income Deprived—The Income Scale score is a run and maintained by the Minerals Industry Research count of the numbers of individuals experiencing this deprivation. Organisation. 40% of the formula is based on the 10 to 17-year-old population. 10% is based on geographical size of the area. Biodiversity For Welsh YOTs: 40% of the formula is based on seven indicators taken from the Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Welsh Assembly Index of Multiple Deprivation 2005 published Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her by the Welsh Assembly Government. These include income, Department spent on biodiversity conservation in (a) employment, housing, access to services, health, environment and England and (b) the UK Overseas Territories in each education. of the last five years. [45990] 50% of the formula is based on the 10 to 17-year-old population. 10% is based on YOT caseload data which is provided by YOTs Richard Benyon: Details of expenditure on biodiversity and is the number of young offenders resident in each YOT area. conservation in England are provided in the following Funding is also given to YOTs for: table. These figures represent DEFRA programme spend and spend by the wider DEFRA network but do not Intensive Supervision and Surveillance Programme. include staff costs. They also include total agri-environment Keeping Young People Engaged. scheme expenditure and the DEFRA biodiversity research Welsh YOTs also receive the following funding: programme, of which a major share is judged to be “Splash” funding which covers prevention activities and is split spent on biodiversity in England. equally between all 18 YOTs in Wales. Estimated public expenditure by DEFRA network organisations on biodiversity Substance misuse funding. conservation in England £ million Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 what funding he has allocated to youth offending teams DEFRA: Agri- 187.2 254.6 324.9 362.4 356.5 in each local authority area; and if he will make a environment statement. [46976] schemes

Mr Blunt: Youth offending teams (YOTs) are yet to Other DEFRA be formally notified of their funding allocations from expenditure: central Government for 2011-12. Government Departments Biodiversity 0.1 2.5 2.3 2.8 3.2 are in the process of finalising their funding contributions programme to the Youth Justice Board. This is expected within the Research 1.9 6.5 5.0 6.3 5.8 Environment 10.5 11.6 7.3 23.5 25.5 next 14 days after which the Youth Justice Board will Agency send formal notification to each YOT and their local Forestry 17.7 22.8 28.1 33.3 32.0 authority colleagues. Commission Throughout the last six months, the Youth Justice Natural England 57.3 54.1 52.7 52.4 56.9 Board have kept YOTs informed on progress with funding Joint Nature 1.8 1.8 2.1 1.7 2.1 Conservation negotiations and, in the absence of final confirmation, Committee each YOT was recently sent an indicative amount of the DEFRA network 276.6 354.0 422.3 482.6 481.9 likely allocation to assist in their planning for the total1 forthcoming financial year. 1Totals may not add due to rounding. 195W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 196W

Details of spending commitments on biodiversity Department plans to launch Round 18 of the Darwin conservation in the UK Overseas Territories are provided Initiative; and whether a proportion of that fund will in the following table. These include commitments under be reserved for the UK Overseas Territories. [45992] the Darwin Initiative and support for projects to address invasive non-native species, in each of the last five Richard Benyon: We are aiming to launch Round 18 financial years. They also include spend by the Joint of the Darwin Initiative shortly. Details of the Round, Nature Conservation Committee. They do not include including the proportion of the fund that may be ear- spend by others, for example the governments of the marked for specific activities or specific geographical Overseas Territories themselves, who are principally areas, are being developed. responsible for biodiversity conservation in their territories. Departmental Procurement Total (£) 2005-06 226,970 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 211,130 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the cost to 2007-08 152,379 the public purse was of the (a) procurement and (b) 2008-09 178,527 outsourcing function of (i) her Department and (ii) 2009-10 508,558 each (A) agency, (B) non-departmental public body In addition, DEFRA funded biodiversity conservation and (C) non-ministerial department for which she is projects in 2009 and 2010 in the UK Overseas Territories responsible in the last financial year for which figures through the Flagship Species Fund amounting to are available. [43950] approximately £10,000 and £28,000 respectively. Richard Benyon: The following table shows the identified Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for costs of the (a) procurement and (b) outsourcing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when her functions for the fiscal year 2009-10.

Cost of procurement Organisation function 2009-10 (£) Notes Cost of outsourcing function 2009-10

Core DEFRA 4,362,890.00 — The costs in 2009-10 varied through the year as additional resources were used for periods to aid contract renegotiation. Since the signing of a new contract, overall staff numbers have significantly decreased. The ICT outsourcing contract includes providing a range of services to a number of the Departments ALBs as well as core DEFRA. Food and Environment 288,000.00 — n/a Research Agency Rural Payments Agency 688,000.00 — n/a Veterinary Medicines — Nil. VMD has no separate n/a Directorate procurement function. Procurement is part of the role of a number of VMD staff but we do not separately capture time spent on this activity. Animal Health Agency — Nil. Core DEFRA procure on behalf n/a of Animal Health. Centre for Environment 34,367.00 — n/a Fisheries and Aquaculture Science Marine Management 164,000.00 The procurement function was n/a Organisation fulfilled by one HQ and nine coastal administrators along with support by the shared services department SSD of DEFRA. Veterinary Laboratories Agency 149,000.00 — n/a British Waterways — Nil. British Waterways is moving from n/a a public corporation to charitable status in 2012. Forestry Commission 131,151.90 2009-10—the Forestry Commission n/a England (a non-ministerial Department) Environment Agency 4,000,000.00 This excludes Wales Procurement and The EA does not have a separate outsource function ICT Commercial costs. as this activity is delivered by procurement. Gangmasters Licensing — The size of the GLA means that it has n/a Authority no dedicated procurement function. Joint Nature Conservation 85,000.00 — n/a Committee National Forest — Nil. The size of the National Forest n/a Company means that it has no dedicated procurement function. Natural England 919,000.00 Natural England’s Procurement n/a Function undertakes all procurement activity which includes any outsourcing; therefore there is no separate Outsourcing Function. 197W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 198W

Cost of procurement Organisation function 2009-10 (£) Notes Cost of outsourcing function 2009-10

Royal Botanic Gardens Kew — During 2009-10 procurement was n/a undertaken by existing Kew staff completing other tasks. With effect from 1 February 2011 the procurement activities for Kew has now transferred to core DEFRA. Sustainable Development 59,635.00 — n/a Commission n/a = Not applicable.

Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for plans to follow to establish an independent forest Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which advisory panel; and what timetable she has set for this procurement projects engaged upon by (a) her process. [46090] Department and (b) each non-departmental public body and agency for which she is responsible had a Mr Paice: The panel’s membership is still being designated senior responsible owner in the latest period considered. It will include representatives of key for which figures are available; and on what date each environmental and access organisations, alongside officer was appointed in each such case. [45560] representatives of the forestry industry and will need to draw on a broad range of expertise to inform its work. Richard Benyon: The Department, its agencies and We will make an announcement on the panel’s composition non-departmental bodies undertake many projects, many as soon as possible and anticipate that the panel will of which may have a procurement requirement. In the report its findings in the autumn. core Department, the agencies and non-departmental public bodies, most of these have no central record of Natural England all these projects and the related procurements and therefore no central record of all designated senior Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for responsible owners. To compile such a list would incur a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her disproportionate cost. Department’s policy is on the use of powers of Some areas have processes that do allow some collection guidance and direction in sections 15 and 16 of the of data on designated senior responsible owners where the Natural Environment and Rural Communities value of the requirement is significant. An example is: Act 2006. [45756] Natural England appointed an SRO for the one procurement Richard Benyon: Ministerial powers of guidance and project identified over £10 million. The SRO was an executive director and was appointed on 10 March 2009. The contract was direction in relation to Natural England were included awarded on 1 August 2010. Natural England had no other in the Natural Environment and Rural Communities projects over £10 million during the reporting period. Natural (NERC) Act 2006 in accordance with Cabinet Office England’s project management procedures require that a role guidance. equivalent to an SRO is appointed for all projects and the The Department issued “Statutory guidance for Natural seniority of the person fulfilling the role is determined by our England on regional planning and associated matters”, financial scheme of delegation. as required by section 15(1) of the NERC Act in The Department, its agencies and non-departmental March 2007. Up to the present time, the Secretary of bodies use formal project management techniques and State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the processes to manage most of its projects and the assignment right hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has of a senior responsible owner, who may or may not be not considered that either statutory guidance to Natural dedicated to the project, is determined by the estimated England under section 15(2), or a direction under section value, complexity and delivery requirements of the project. 16, is required. In all cases, projects have designated management to lead all requirements and where procurement is necessary, Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for the skills of professional procurement staff in each of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on how many the areas will be sought and used as appropriate. occasions her Department’s and Natural England’s Technical Advice Customers Group has met since Forests 1 January 2008. [45757]

Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: In 2006, arrangements were put in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what criteria she place to ensure continued access to the types of technical proposes to use to determine membership of the advice provided to DEFRA (and other Government Forestry Expert Review Panel. [45755] Departments) by the three predecessor bodies to Natural England, following the vesting of Natural England. Mr Paice: The panel’s membership is still being The Technical Advice Customer Group was established considered. It will include representatives of key to review these arrangements, and met a number of environmental and access organisations, alongside times in the early years of Natural England’s operation. representatives of the forestry industry. It will need to It has met twice since 1 January 2008. The last meeting draw on a broad range of expertise to inform its work. of the group, in 2008, concluded that provision of technical advice was working well and could in future Mr Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for be delivered through existing planning and management Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what process she channels between DEFRA and Natural England. 199W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 200W

Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Rivers: Closures Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions (a) Ministers, (b) the Permanent Secretary Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for and (c) the chief scientific adviser to her Department Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many have had with Natural England on the practice of stretches of river in the East of England were closed by Natural England in (i) assuring the quality of its the Environment Agency for maintenance in each of evidence and advice to her Department and (ii) the last three years; and what the length of closure was recording and retaining audit trails of evidence and in each case. [45632] advice provided to her Department. [45986] Richard Benyon: The stretches of Environment Agency Richard Benyon: There have been no direct discussions navigable rivers in East Anglia that were closed for recently between Ministers or the Permanent Secretary maintenance over the past three years, and the duration and Natural England regarding processes for assuring of these closures, are outlined in the following table: the quality of its evidence and advice to DEFRA, or East Anglian waterways reach closures recording and retaining audit trails of such evidence 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 and advice. The chief scientific adviser (CSA) has periodic meetings Number of reaches 69 69 69 with Natural England’s executive director for Science Total reach days available 25,185 25,185 25,185 (number x 365) and Evidence. During some recent meetings, quality Reaches closed 4 2 3 assuring evidence and advice and audit trails have been Mean duration (days) 46.3 25.0 8.2 discussed. The CSA has also met Natural England’s Total reach days closed 185 50 41 chief executive and officials to discuss similar issues Closure percentage1 0.7 0.2 0.2 regarding evidence and advice relating to the identification 1 Closure percentage = total reach days closed/total reach days available of candidate marine Special Areas of Conservation. percentage Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for These closures stop navigation within the reach, generally Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance to ensure the safety of the public, staff or contractors her Department has issued to Natural England on (a) while maintenance works are undertaken. good practice in (i) provision of advice and evidence Individual locks are also closed for similar maintenance and (ii) measures for the recording of evidence and works. These closures mean that craft cannot navigate analysis provided to her Department and (b) the through the lock, but can still navigate in the reaches up process for designation of marine protected areas. and downstream of the lock. The locks on the Environment [45987] Agency navigable rivers in East Anglia that were closed for maintenance over the past three years, and the Richard Benyon: DEFRA has not issued any specific duration of these closures, are outlined in the following guidance to Natural England regarding good practice table: in the provision of evidence and advice or measures for recording evidence and analysis. East Anglian waterways lock closures 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 There are a number of published guidelines covering various aspects of the use of scientific advice in policy Number of locks 69 69 69 making. The Government chief scientific adviser’s Total lock days available 25,185 25,185 25,185 Guidelines on the Use of Scientific and Engineering (number x 365) Advice in Policy Making1 (updated 2010) are specifically Locks closed 15 9 24 targeted to Government Departments and provide general Mean duration (days) 14.1 17.9 18.8 advice on good practice, including on how scientific and Total lock days closed 211 161 452 engineering advice should be sought and applied. They Closure percentage1 0.8 0.6 1.8 1 Closure percentage = total lock days closed/total lock days available do not explicitly apply to non-departmental public bodies percentage such as Natural England. Whether or not there are explicit requirements, the Government would expect Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection Natural England to use good practice, as appropriate to their own purposes and procedures. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her Guidance on the designation of European marine Department’s policy is on the (a) openness and (b) sites is provided by the European Commission with transparency of the process for designation of marine additional guidance produced by the Joint Nature protected areas. [45872] Conservation Committee. DEFRA has issued a guidance note on the proposed Richard Benyon: We expect a full and open public approach to the selection and designation of marine consultation to take place during the process for designation conservation zones under part 5 of the Marine and of marine protected areas. This will be expected to Coastal Access Act2. This was issued in draft in May include the reasons for site selection and the evidence 2009 and finalised in September 2010 following feedback on which site selection decisions were made. from those using the advice. Guidance has also been provided on identifying possible management measures, Sewers: Private Sector ecosystem services and total economic valuation. 1 http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/bispartners/goscience/docs/g/10- Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for 669-gcsa-guidelines-scientific-engineering-advice-policy- Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will making.pdf publish the responses to her Department’s consultation 2 http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/biodiversity/marine/ on private sewer transfers; and if she will make a documents/guidance-note1.pdf statement. [45414] 201W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 202W

Richard Benyon: The Secretary of State for Environment, Slaughterhouses Foods and Rural Affairs will publish a summary of responses to the consultation in due course. 106 responses were received from 96 respondents covering a wide Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for range of sectors. An analysis of the responses, together Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent with an overview of feedback from the workshops that research her Department has (a) evaluated and (b) were undertaken to support the consultation, will be commissioned on levels of pain and distress presented in the summary. experienced during the slaughter process by animals (i) not stunned and (ii) stunned prior to slaughter. [45971] Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Mr Paice: DEFRA and the New Zealand Ministry of discussions she has had with Ofwat on the proposed Agriculture and Forestry commissioned and joint funded transfer of private sewers to water companies. [45521] research to investigate the effects of slaughter by ventral neck incision on the EEG in calves (project number Richard Benyon: DEFRA officials continue to meet MH0129). This work commenced in January 2005 and regularly with Ofwat to discuss various aspects of the the final report was published in the New Zealand Government’s proposals for the transfer of private sewers. Veterinary Journal in April 2009. This work indicates Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for that the neck cut associated with religious slaughter Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans evokes a pain response in anesthetised calves. to transfer private sewers to water companies; and if DEFRA has commissioned the following projects she will make a statement. [46076] since the beginning of 2005 which relate to the pain and distress experienced by animals stunned prior to slaughter: Richard Benyon: The regulations to effect the transfer MH0128: Novel and humane gaseous killing methods for pigs; of private sewers are currently being considered in accordance with the Government’s principles for better MH0129: Investigation of the EEG effects-of-slaughter-by regulation. Following this they will need parliamentary ventral-neck incision in calves: humane slaughter study; approval before transfer can take place. MH0135: Containability and aversiveness of different gas mixtures used for the stunning of slaughter weight pigs; Subject to the regulations being approved, transfer is proposed to take place on 1 October 2011. MH0138: Reducing bird stress and discomfort on the poultry shackling line; Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for MH0145: Study to identify the welfare costs and benefits of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects existing and novel on-farm culling methods of poultry. the regulations for the transfer of private drains and Details of all DEFRA R and D projects can be found sewers to come into force. [46315] by searching for the project code at: Richard Benyon: The regulations to effect the transfer http://randd.defra.gov.uk of private sewers are currently being considered in DEFRA has not specifically evaluated any research accordance with the Government’s principles for better on levels of pain and distress experienced during the regulation. Following this they will need parliamentary slaughter process by animals stunned or not stunned approval before transfer can take place. Subject to the prior to slaughter. However we do seek to ensure policy regulations being approved, transfer is proposed to take decisions reflect latest scientific evidence and will consider place on 1 October 2011. all relevant published research before final decisions are made. In addition the Farm Animal Welfare Council Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for conducted a review of research when it prepared its Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects reports on red and white meat slaughter in 2003 and to lay before Parliament the regulations to authorise 2009 respectively. the transfer of private drains and sewers to statutory sewer companies. [46368] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Benyon: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy gave her on 3 March 2011, Official Report, column is on requiring the stunning of animals prior to 517W. slaughter. [45972] Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: We would prefer to see all animals stunned Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans before slaughter. However, religious slaughter (slaughter to publish her proposals for the transfer of private without prior stunning) is currently allowed in the UK drains and sewers to statutory sewer companies. [46520] in recognition of the religious beliefs of Muslim and Richard Benyon: The consultation on draft regulations Jewish faiths. This is consistent with the European and proposals for schemes for the transfer of private directive 93/119/EC which permits an exemption from sewers to water and sewerage companies in England the requirement to stun animals for methods of slaughter and Wales was published on 26 August 2010. With required by certain religious rites. regard to the timing of the proposed regulations, they In the UK slaughter without prior stunning can only are currently being considered in accordance with the be undertaken in a slaughterhouse. Schedule 12 of the Government’s principles for better regulation. Following Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations this they will need parliamentary approval before transfer 1995 sets out the requirements in more detail, including can take place. Subject to the regulations being approved, conditions for restraint, handling, slaughter and minimum transfer is proposed to take place on 1 October 2011. bleed-out times. 203W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 204W

Slaughterhouses: Standards The case study review will look at the evidence, advice and processes, as well as the Government’s evaluation Jack Lopresti: To ask the Secretary of State for of such information. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Sustainable Development Department is taking to promote animal welfare standards in abattoirs. [46323] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: The Government encourage the highest Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what policy standards of animal welfare at slaughter. Directive outcomes to enhance sustainable development her 93/119/EC on the protection of animals at the time of Department (a) has developed and (b) plans to slaughter or killing has been implemented by The Welfare develop following the Green Breakfast meeting with of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995, as ministerial colleagues she hosted on 8 March 2011; and amended. These regulations govern animal welfare at if she will make a statement. [46054] slaughter and are designed specifically to prevent cruelty or poor practice in slaughterhouses. Richard Benyon: The Green Breakfast meeting is an informal working group, hosted by the Secretary of The regulations make it an offence to cause any State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. It animal avoidable excitement, pain or suffering at any considers practical issues related to Government’s time between its arrival at a slaughterhouse and when it commitment to deliver sustainable growth. It also operates is killed. In particular, animals must be stunned properly as a discussion forum for cross cutting issues such as so that they are unconscious and unable to feel pain sustainable development, and Ministers from the following during the slaughter process unless the slaughter is Departments are invited to attend: DEFRA, DECC, carried out for meat for a religious purpose. BIS, UKTI, HMT, Cabinet Office, DFID, FCO, CLG The regulations also require slaughterers to be licensed. and DfT. The licensing process involves an assessment of competence Cabinet Committees remain the place for policy decisions by a veterinary surgeon to ensure that slaughterers can to be made. carry out their work effectively and competently. Council Regulation 1099/2009 on the protection of Waste Management animals at killing was made on 24 September 2009. This regulation will apply from 1 January 2013 and will Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for replace Directive 93/119/EC. The new regulation introduces Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the a number of additional requirements including a answer of 3 March 2011, Official Report, column requirement that all slaughterhouses (above a minimum 520W, on waste management, which stakeholders (a) size) will have to appoint a specific person responsible Ministers and (b) officials have met in connection with for animal welfare and ensure their staff are properly the review of waste policies. [45342] trained and certified. The regulation also permits the use of national rules to maintain existing welfare protection Richard Benyon [holding answer 10 March 2011]: where that is better than the minimum standards set out Ministers have engaged with a wide range of stakeholders in the regulation. There will be full consultation on the through the ongoing review of waste policies, and are way regulation 1099/2009 is implemented. continuing to do so as the review progresses. This engagement includes meeting or visiting the following Special Areas of Conservation organisations: Air Products Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for APS Salads Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether she has any plans to seek independent external expert Asda advice on the (a) processes, (b) evidence, (c) analysis Association for Organics Recycling and (d) advice provided by Natural England to inform Biffa her Department’s decisions on candidate Special Areas Biogen Greenfinch of Conservation; [42162] British Retail Consortium (2) whether her Department is assessing the scientific Campaign for Real Recycling evidence used to inform the decision-making process in Centrol Recycling Group relation to any potential or candidate Special Areas of Coca Cola Enterprises Conservation; and if she will make a statement. [42164] Envac Richard Benyon: Decisions to submit candidate Special Environment Agency Areas of Conservation (SACs) to the European Environmental Services Association Commission are supported by scientific evidence and Fareshare advice provided by our statutory nature conservation Friends of the Earth bodies following public consultation. To help inform Graphite Resources DEFRA of this process, its chief scientific adviser is Green Alliance commissioning an independent case study review to Green-works look at some examples relating to the selection of candidate/possible SACs. The review will consider the Hackney Council following case studies: Lyme Bay and Torbay, and Prawle Improvement and Efficiency South East Point to Plymouth Sound and Eddystone candidate Ineos Bio SACs, and Prawle Point to Start Point possible SAC. Kilfrost 205W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 206W

Local Government Association The ’golden rule’ of the Green Deal is that expected Ocado financial savings from reduced energy use must be equal Plastics 2020 Challenge consortium to or greater than the costs attached to the consumer’s Premier Waste energy bill. Because cold water use does not affect a householder’s energy use, cold water efficiency measures PYReco would not be eligible for Green Deal financing Recresco Ltd arrangements. Richmondshire Council However, water companies can and do offer retrofit Sita cold water efficiency measures. Such services could be Somerset waste partnerships delivered alongside Green Deal measures. South Tyneside Council Sustainable Resource Forum Whales Telford Hart The Vine Project Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Viridor Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent WRAP steps she has taken in relation to whaling; and if she Ministers have met representatives of other organisations will make a statement. [45864] in the margins of other events where discussion included the review of waste policies, but it is not possible to Richard Benyon: I attended the last annual International compile a complete list of such contact. Whaling Commission (IWC) meeting, to demonstrate our commitment to the work of the IWC and the Officials from the Department have also met with a importance that the UK Government and people attach wide range of organisations regarding the ongoing review, to it. We worked hard with other member states to both through speaking at a significant number of events ensure that the EU took a strong, pro-conservation and meetings with a broad range of stakeholders. This position and stood firm to ensure that the IWC moratorium supports the input received to the review of waste on commercial whaling was not undermined. policies through other mechanisms. The Department received 309 responses to its Call For Evidence for the Ahead of this year’s IWC meeting, I plan to discuss review, which included 101 from local authorities, 57 from our support for the moratorium on commercial whaling a wide range of businesses and 53 from private individuals. with a range of environmental and other organisations, Copies of the responses to the Call for Evidence will be and with anti-whaling countries. publicly available in DEFRA’s Information Resource DEFRA officials will be meeting the 25 EU IWC Centre until July 2011. Nearly 400 comments were contracting Governments and other anti-whaling countries posted on DEFRA’s online discussion forum by individuals in the build-up to the 63rd International Whaling discussing waste policy, with approximately 1,500 individuals Commission annual meeting (IWC63). completing a short online survey. We will also be working with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to raise the issue with key IWC Water Charges members prior to IWC63, encouraging support for the moratorium and for the UK’s position to ensure the Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for long-term conservation and protection of whales. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans to publish the consultation on the Walker review of Whales: Japan charging and metering for water and sewerage services; and if she will make a statement. [46521] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Richard Benyon: In our programme for government discussions she has had with her Japanese counterpart we committed to examine the issues covered by the on whaling. [45508] Walker review. We plan to consult on some of the key points raised this spring. Richard Benyon [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The UK Government make their opposition to whaling Water Supply known to Japan at every appropriate opportunity. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Affairs, the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has (Mr Hague), and other Ministers, including those from had discussions with (a) Ofwat and (b) the DEFRA, raised whaling with the Japanese Government Department for Energy and Climate Change on the on several occasions last year. Furthermore, I have potential for water companies to fund the marginal written to my Japanese counterpart to express concern cost of delivering cold water efficiency measures so that over whaling and, in particular, the wide-scale hunting they can be offered for free to householders as part of of dolphins. Senior officials also regularly make the Green Deal. [46351] representations on whaling with the Government of Japan, most recently in January 2011. Richard Benyon: DEFRA has had discussions about The Japanese Government are in no doubt as to the the scope for water efficiency measures, both hot and strength of feeling in this country about whaling, the cold, with both Ofwat and the Department of Energy UK Government will continue to challenge Japan’s and Climate Change. Advice on water efficiency measures position in the build up to this year’s meeting of the will be offered as part of the overall Green Deal. International Whaling Commission (IWC63) in July. 207W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 208W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) if he will make it his policy to place in the Public Bills: Internet Library at the time of making his quarterly oral statement on Afghanistan monthly estimates of the Natascha Engel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister number of fatalities among ISAF-trained Afghan (1) who will be responsible for operating the dedicated National Army personnel who were present for duty website for public reading stage of Bills; how many independently of ISAF troops and his assessment of people will operate the website; and what budget has the extent to which the number of known fatalities been established for the website; [41657] reflects actual fatalities; [45810] (2) what progress he has made on the establishment (2) if he will present information on (a) the known of a dedicated website to take online comments from number and (b) his estimate of the total number of members of the public on proposed legislation. [41664] fatalities among ISAF-trained Afghan National Army The Deputy Prime Minister: On 15 February 2011, personnel who were present for duty alongside ISAF Official Report, column 73WS, I announced the launch troops at the time of each future quarterly oral of a website that allowed the public to comment on the statement on Afghanistan; [45867] Protection of Freedoms Bill online, before the House of (3) if he will present information on (a) the known Commons commenced its consideration at Second Reading: number and (b) his estimate of the total number of www.publicreadingstage.cabinetoffice.gov.uk fatalities among ISAF-trained Afghan National Army This is a pilot website and decisions about the operation personnel who were present for duty alongside UK of any dedicated public reading website will be taken, in troops at the time of each future quarterly oral light of this experience, by the Leader of the House of statement on Afghanistan. [45868] Commons in consultation with ministerial colleagues. Dr Fox: This is a matter for the Government of Afghanistan. We do not hold information on the number of Afghan National Security Forces fatalities. DEFENCE Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make it his policy to place in the Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Library at the time of making his quarterly Oral Defence what new capabilities he expects to be Statement on Afghanistan cumulative monthly provided to British troops in Afghanistan as a estimates of (a) the number of, (b) the number of consequence of the funding announced on 10 June fatalities among and (c) the number present for duty 2010 to help troops counter improvised explosive (i) alongside ISAF troops, (ii) alongside UK troops and devices. [45787] (iii) independent of ISAF troops of ISAF-trained Afghan National Army personnel. [45811] Dr Fox: The allocation of up to an additional £67 million announced by the Prime Minister on 10 June Dr Fox: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer the 2010 is allowing us to equip a significant increase in the Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans, number of specialist counter-improvised explosive device my right hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for (C-IED) teams in theatre. The additional capabilities Defence (Mr Robathan) gave on 17 February 2011, include more protected vehicles and more specialist Official Report, column 914W. explosive ordnance disposal and search equipment including The Ministry of Defence only holds data on the remote control vehicles, for use by our C-IED teams, number of Afghan National Army personnel present and enhancements to our military working dog capability; for duty within the Task Force Helmand area of operations. these, and enhancements to other critical capabilities, We do not hold information on the number of fatalities will make a considerable contribution to operational in the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) as it is capability, increase the protection available to our armed a matter for the Government of Afghanistan. forces, and enhance their ability to defeat the IED threat. The development of the ANSF is a key element in delivering our national security objectives in Afghanistan. Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Responsibility for the Government’s quarterly oral statement Defence what steps his Department (a) has taken and on Afghanistan rotates between the Foreign and (b) plans to take to encourage the government of Commonwealth Office, the Ministry of Defence and Afghanistan to record and report the number of deaths the Department for International Development. in the conflict in that country in each month. [45809] Information on the development of the ANSF will continue to be given in the Government’s monthly Dr Fox: I regularly hold discussions with members of written statements on Afghanistan, and will be included the Afghan Government on a number of issues including in quarterly oral statements as appropriate. fatalities. United Nations Assistance Mission Afghanistan in Air Force: Military Bases conjunction with the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission currently release bi-annual reports Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State on civilian casualties in Afghanistan and individual for Defence pursuant to the answer of 7 March 2011, ISAF troop contributing nations regularly report fatalities Official Report, column 802W, on air force: military among their own armed forces. bases, if he will place in the Library a copy of the study I believe this is an appropriate approach to what is a into the UK Military Emergency Diversion Aerodrome sensitive and complex issue. capability. [45865] 209W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 210W

Mr Robathan: A copy of the document will be placed Armed Forces: Cancer in the Library of the House. Mr Donaldson: To ask the Secretary of State for Ammunition Defence what research his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on the incidence of (i) Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for brain tumours and (ii) other forms of cancer among Defence what estimate he has made of the shelf life of (A) armed forces personnel and (B) the civilian 120 mm Charm 3 APFSDS L27 rounds. [46047] population. [46604]

Peter Luff: All stocks of the 120 mm Charm 3 Mr Robathan [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The APFSDS L27 round are currently held in storage. In Ministry of Defence’s Defence Analytical Services and these controlled conditions, the L27 round has a five Advice (DASA) compare the mortality rates for in-service year shelf life. deaths due to cancer with those in the general UK population in the annual national statistic notice on Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for deaths in the UK regular armed forces. Defence whether his Department has assessed the In addition, DASA provide the numbers of deaths suitability of the use of the L18 charge together with due to cancers among veterans of the first Gulf war in the L27 propellant charge. [46049] the annual national statistic notice on the mortality of veterans of the first Gulf war. Overall figures and Peter Luff: We are currently assessing whether the breakdowns by cancer site are provided. Mortality rates L18 charge could be used in conjunction with the L27 are compared to those in a comparison ‘Era’ cohort, round, but we have yet to reach any conclusions. consisting of individuals of a similar age, gender, service, regular/reservist status and rank who were in service on Armed Forces 1 January 1991 but did not deploy to the Gulf. The report does not currently compare cancers to the UK population. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has for restructuring of the The National Statistics on deaths in the UK regular armed forces after the date of withdrawal of troops armed forces and Gulf mortality are available on the DASA website from Afghanistan. [45871] www.dasa.mod.uk Dr Fox: The Strategic Defence and Security Review and the next release is due on 31 March 2011. identifies the armed forces we believe we will need over From April 2011, DASA will start a study to monitor the text 10 years, and the restructuring required to mortality and cancer registrations of all UK personnel deliver them. It has deliberately focussed on the decisions in service (including all reservists who deploy on operations) that need to be taken in the next four years, and left to from 18 January 2003 until the draw down of troops in 2015 those decisions that can better be taken in the light Afghanistan. The intention is to monitor the population of further experience in Afghanistan and developments for their lifetime and will include the veteran population. in the wider economic situation. Armed Forces: Housing Armed Forces: Allowances Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what his policy is on the use of receipts from Defence pursuant to the answer of 8 February 2011, the sale of barracks for improvements to service Official Report, column 126W, on armed forces: pay, accommodation. [45758] how many members of the armed forces have informed their chain of command that they believe they will be placed in financial difficulty by recent changes to their Mr Robathan: In line with HM Treasury guidance, allowances. [41787] receipts retained by the Ministry of Defence from the sale of property are reinvested by the Department in key priorities, and form part of the Defence budget. In Mr Robathan: The information requested is not held. support of our servicemen and women more capital is Service personnel are encouraged to contact their chain generally invested each year in modernising the Defence of command when they face financial difficulties, whatever estate than is generated by the sale of estate assets. the reason for those difficulties. Commanding officers are aware that recent changes to the pay and allowance system may require personnel to make some adjustments Armed Forces: Redundancy to their financial affairs and at least three months notice was given to personnel before any measures came into Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for effect to give them the time to do so. Defence what estimate he has made of the number of General advice on debt is available to personnel at all redundancies to arise from proposed changes to levels, and ranges from written guides, financial expertise communications and logistics support to Headquarters of pay staff and service family organisations, as well as Allied Rapid Reaction Corps; and whether this figure ensuring there are good links to national organisations has been reckoned as part of the addition to or part of such as the Citizens’ Advice Bureau and Money Advisory 25,000 civilian staff redundancies already announced. Service. [46286] 211W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 212W

Mr Robathan: The strategic defence and security Mr Gerald Howarth: The UK maintains a rigorous review white paper published in October 2010 outlined and transparent arms export control system, under the requirement to restructure the Army and stated that which all export licence applications are assessed case the Army will by case against the Consolidated European Union and ‘rationalise our deployable headquarters by reducing the National Arms Exports Licensing Criteria. communications and logistics support to Headquarters Allied UK end-use monitoring of UK-origin military goods Rapid Reaction Corps (ARRC) to reflect its static rather than takes place in three contexts. Firstly, the information mobile role’. gathering that takes place in making the case-by-case While organisational restructuring and reductions in assessment of each licence application. This takes account military manpower are clearly linked it is incorrect to of the past record of the proposed end-user. Secondly, assume that because an organisation is rationalised the detailed monitoring, review and reporting around incidents individuals in that organisation will be made redundant. of concern, the results of which are factored into judgments When organisational change reduces the requirement about whether or not to revoke extant licences and issue for officers or soldiers, then the overall strength is new ones. Thirdly, general monitoring on a continuous reduced. Separate processes are used to determine how basis, with information received in-country being fed to effect that reduction and, therefore, which individuals back to the export licensing and other relevant Departments will be affected. This means that the most appropriate in London. Foreign and Commonwealth Office posts individuals leave the service, not necessarily the ones abroad play an active and vital role in monitoring. who happen to be in an organisation at the time it is rationalised. It is too early to say whether this restructuring will Army: Redundancy result in a surplus of civilian staff, but in the event of civilian staff redundancies resulting from this restructuring Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for they will be scored as part of the 25,000 already announced. Defence what criteria his Department plans to use to determine which army personnel will be made Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for redundant under its present programme of Defence pursuant to the oral answer of 15 February redundancies. [46460] 2011, Official Report, column 815, on the armed forces (redundancies), what criteria his Department used to determine which warrant officers were to have their Mr Robathan: I refer the right hon. Member to the contracts terminated. [46656] statement given by the Secretary of State for Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset Mr Robathan: The Army’s versatile engagement long (Dr Fox), on 1 March 2011, Official Report, columns 21- career and long service list is being reviewed against 22WS, on the armed forces redundancy programme. future requirements for such posts. As a result, those The Army will be in a position to confirm the criteria individuals on the list whose current contract was due by which Army personnel will be made redundant to end between 31 March 2011 and 12 January 2012 under its present programme of redundancies on 4 April were notified that they may not receive further extension 2011. of service once their current contract period ends. This is an interim planning measure until the completion of Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for the review, which will confirm the numbers and skills Defence whether he anticipates redundancies from the required for the future. conversion of the second operational divisional These individuals are on individual contracts and are headquarters to a force preparation role. [46471] not being made redundant as part of the strategic defence and security review reductions to the armed Mr Robathan: The strategic defence and security forces. review White Paper published in October 2010 outlined the requirement to restructure the Army and stated that Armoured Fighting Vehicles the Army will ‘convert the second of our operational divisional headquarters Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for to a force preparation role.’ Defence how much funding he plans to allocate to introducing the Future Rapid Effects System Utility While organisational restructuring and reductions in Vehicle. [45900] military manpower are clearly linked it is incorrect to assume that because an organisation is rationalised the Peter Luff: The Utility Vehicle (UV) programme has individuals in that organisation will be made redundant. not yet reached its main investment decision point. The When organisational change reduces the requirement Ministry of Defence does not publish the planned costs for officers or soldiers, then the overall strength is of programmes before this point. To do otherwise would reduced. Separate processes are used to determine how potentially undermine our commercial position. to effect that reduction and, therefore, which individuals will be affected. This means that the most appropriate Arms Trade individuals leave the service, not necessarily the ones who happen to be in an organisation at the time it is Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for rationalised. Defence what steps his Department takes to (a) record It is too early to say whether this restructuring will and (b) monitor the subsequent use of arms systems result in a surplus of civilian staff, but in the event of and other weapons sold to foreign governments by UK civilian staff redundancies resulting from this restructuring companies. [46202] they will be scored as part of the 25,000 already announced. 213W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 214W

Defence: Expenditure Departmental Leaseback Arrangements

Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps his Department is taking to Defence what assets his Department has sold and monitor the reduction of expenditure in the defence leased back over the last 12 months; what the sale price budget. [45878] was of each asset so sold; and what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of leasing back each such asset over the period of the lease. [45074] Dr Fox: Successful implementation of the Strategic Defence and Security Review is one of the Ministry of Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has not sold Defence’s key objectives and encompasses reductions in and leased back any assets during the last 12 months. expenditure. I have, therefore, set up a monthly steering group chaired by myself to monitor and drive forward the process. This is supported by a Defence Operating Departmental Procurement Board (Transforming Defence) chaired by the 2nd permanent under-secretary and vice-chief of the defence Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for staff. These will enable us to provide assurance of Defence how many procurement projects with a delivery and senior oversight to maintain momentum. monetary value greater than (a) £10 million, (b) £50 million and (c) £100 million (i) his Department Defence: Procurement and (ii) each non-departmental public body and agency for which he is responsible was engaged upon in the latest period for which figures are available. [45555] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (1) how much he expects his Department to Peter Luff: The current numbers of procurement save as a result of the commitment in the Strategic projects identified by the Ministry of Defence in the Defence and Security Review to save significant categories requested is shown in the following table: amounts from contract re-negotiations with the defence industry in each year of the comprehensive Project value (£ million) Number of projects spending review period; [45748] (2) what recent discussions (a) he, (b) Ministers in 10-50 125 his Department and (c) officials in his Department 50-100 21 have had with representatives of the defence industry Over 100 66 on the honouring of provisions in contracts to which The projects included are those funded and managed his Department is party; [45989] by the Defence Equipment and Support and Defence (3) what estimate he has made of the saving for his Estates organisations. There are no procurement projects Department as a result of implementation of the being managed by the non-departmental public bodies commitment in the Strategic Defence and Spending that fall within the scope of the question. Review to save significant amounts from contract renegotiations with the defence industry; and how Departmental Public Expenditure much he expects to be saved in each year of the comprehensive spending review period; [46464] John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (4) whether the contract renegotiations with the what timetable he has set for decisions on measures to defence industry committed to in the Strategic Defence achieve non-frontline savings identified in the Strategic and Security Review have commenced; and if he will Defence and Security Review. [46373] make a statement. [46469] Dr Fox: The Ministry of Defence is committed to Peter Luff: The Ministry of Defence honours its making at least £4.3 billion of non-frontline savings by contractual commitments. Where it is necessary to amend 2014-15. We are determined to deliver these. the conditions of a contract, we do so through negotiation. Regarding negotiations relating specifically to post-Strategic Departmental Research Defence and Security Review work, I refer the right hon. Member to the answer I gave on 2 March 2011, Official Report, column 454-5W to the right hon. Member Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for for Coventry North East (Mr Ainsworth). Defence how much expenditure his Department (a) allocated to science and technology research in each of the last five years and (b) plans to allocate to science Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for and technology research in each of the next five years. Defence how many obligations in contracts with [45928] private sector providers have not been met as a consequence of the time taken to announce the Peter Luff [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The composition of the equipment programme following most recently published figures for net Ministry of the strategic defence and security review. [46026] Defence (MOD) research spending in “UK Defence Statistics 2010”, which included the research programme Peter Luff: I am aware of no contractual obligations controlled by the chief scientific adviser (CSA) and in respect of defence equipment which the Department other activity reported as “research” in the accounts has not met as a result of the current financial planning across MOD are (inclusive of non-recoverable VAT at round. current prices): 215W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 216W

The Paveway IV bomb, which will also use the Litening £ million III Laser Designation Pod, is currently being cleared for 2006-07 632 future use on Typhoon aircraft. This weapon is being 2007-08 635 integrated under the Typhoon Future Capability 2008-09 584 Programme. It is estimated that the total cost of the compatibility tests for this weapon will be £2.4 million. MOD research expenditure statistics are designated The cost of individual tests is not recorded. National Statistics status and as such the release of the figure for 2009-10 and 2010-11 are embargoed until Gurkhas: Ex-servicemen their publication by the Office for National Statistics in September 2011 and 2012, respectively. However, the Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for organisation within the MOD charged with management Defence (1) what the terms of reference are of the and procurement of research for CS A, the largest part cross-Government task force on Gurkha veterans and of the reported expenditure, recorded a net resource their families; and whether the task force is to examine outturn of some £466 million for 2009-10 and was (a) pensions and (b) other welfare payments to allocated a budget of £439 million for 2010-11. Gurkha veterans; [46199] No final decisions have been taken in the current (2) what the date was of the most recent meeting of defence planning round (PR11) on the level of research the cross-Government task force on Gurkha veterans; funding for 2011-12 onwards. However, we expect the and on what date the next meeting of the task force is science and technology budget to rise slightly in cash scheduled; [46200] terms over the comprehensive spending review period. (3) which Government departments participate in A complete time series detailing MOD research expenditure the cross-Government task force on Gurkha veterans is published in UK Defence Statistics (Table 1.8), a and their families; [46201] copy of which is available in the Library of the House. (4) whether organisations representing Gurkha veterans have been consulted by the cross-Government Departmental Security task force on issues affecting Gurkha veterans and their families. [46714] Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence for what reasons persons not employed by Mr Robathan: The aim of the Cross Government Government departments or agencies are issued with Working Group, which was convened following the passes entitling them to enter his Department’s immigration changes in 2009, was to ensure that ex-Gurkhas premises. [43215] in Nepal were able to make an informed decision to come to the UK and if they did so, that there was an Mr Robathan: Passes may be issued to individuals end-to-end process to make their settlement as smooth who have valid business reasons for making frequent as possible. The Working Group consisted of the Ministry visits to specific Government sites (e.g. contractors), of Defence (MOD), the UK Border Agency, the subject to the usual security checks. Department for Work and Pensions, the Department of Local Community and Government, the Department European Fighter Aircraft of Health, the Department for Children, Schools and Families, the Cabinet Office, the Foreign Office and Her Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. The issues of pension Defence if he will assess the effect on arrangements for and welfare payments were not examined by the Working the defence of the (a) UK and (b) Falkland Islands Group. All ex-Gurkhas who settle in the UK are entitled from aerial attack of circumstances where Typhoon to apply for the full range of state benefits, if they are aircraft are stationed in an air-to-air role outside that unable to work. There are no plans to review this. The Working Group met three times, most recently on airspace. [44996] 16 February 2010, although most business on the key Nick Harvey: The Typhoon force is of sufficient size issues has been and continues to be conducted bilaterally that it could support a contingency operation overseas, between Government Departments. while at the same time maintaining aircraft at continuous The Cross Government Working Group is being ground readiness to fulfil all Quick Reaction Alert reconvened with a new aim of looking beyond the issue standing commitments at RAF Coningsby, RAF Leuchars of the settlement process. It will consider what options and in the Falklands. are available for specific communities who are experiencing strains due to large numbers of ex-Gurkhas and their Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for families who have settled in these areas. Defence if he will estimate the (a) cost to date and (b) The MOD provided extensive briefing in 2009 and future cost of compatibility tests for each type of 2010 for both service charities and ex-Gurkha organisations, ground attack weapon deployed from Typhoon in the UK and Nepal, on the work of the Cross Government aircraft. [44997] Working Group.

Peter Luff: The ground attack weapons currently Improvised Explosive Devices cleared for use on Typhoon aircraft are Enhanced Paveway II using the Litening III Laser Designation Pod, Paveway Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for II, Unguided 10001b Bomb and the Mauser gun. It is Defence how much funding he has allocated to estimated that the total cost of the compatibility tests counter-improvised explosive device capability in each for these weapons was £4.6 million. financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15. [45806] 217W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 218W

Dr Fox: A significant proportion of our Counter- to defend UK airspace, including the Falkland Islands, Improvised Explosive Device (C-IED) capability procured and in the air to ground role Tornado GR4 provides a to date has been as a result of Urgent Operational capable close air support, reconnaissance and offensive Requirements (UOR) and therefore funded by the Reserve. strike capability. They can support other contingent As specific enhancements in this area are dependent on operations if required. the evolving threat, future expenditure cannot be predicted Tornado GR4 is capable of carrying a full array of with any accuracy. Countering IEDs encompasses a strike and counter-insurgency weaponry, including a multitude of capabilities and responsibilities spread full range of precision guided bombs, Storm Shadow throughout the Department and hence there is no one long range stand-off missile and the highly accurate central area that holds this information. In relation to dual-mode seeker Brimstone weapon. Since 2009 it has Defence funded capabilities, we do not release information also provided the United Kingdom contribution to fast for projects that have not reached the main investment jet operations in Afghanistan. The RAPTOR decision. reconnaissance pod is a highly discriminating sensor which provides an unparalleled combination of stand-off Libya and resolution in a tactical system. Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Typhoon deliveries are ongoing and it continues to Defence whether his Department has (a) had any build up both air defence and multirole capabilities. Our discussions with and (b) provided any assistance to other air defence fighter, the Tornado F3, will be retired British universities in securing (i) contracts and (ii) when the Typhoon takes over the remaining Quick financial support from Libya in the last 10 years. Reaction Alert duties at the end of this month. [46071] By around 2020 our fast jet fleet will be made up of two modern and highly capable multi-role combat aircraft, Dr Fox: Since the appointment of the coalition Typhoon and Joint Strike Fighter, which will provide Government the Ministry of Defence has had no the flexibility and strike-power to deal with a variety of discussions, or provided any assistance, to British universities new and existing threats in line with the adaptable interested in trading with Libya. posture set out in the Strategic Defence and Security Review. Marines

Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Military Aircraft: Helicopters Defence what recent assessment he has made of the likely effect of the implementation of the measures in Mr Frank Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for the Strategic Defence and Security Review on the (a) Defence what type of helicopter was used in the recent size, (b) capability and (c) deployability of the Royal mission to transport diplomats to Benghazi, Libya; and Marines; and if he will make a statement. [46019] when the helicopter was allowed to return to its original basing point. [45807] Nick Harvey [holding answer 14 March 2011]: I refer the right hon. Member to the answer given by my hon. Dr Fox: I refer the hon. Member to the statement Friend, the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support given by the Secretary of State for Foreign and and Technology (Peter Luff) on 21 January 2011, Official Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Report, column 1022W. for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), to the House on 7 March 2011, Official Report, columns 643-45. I am Military Aircraft unable to provide any further operational details. Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what UK military assets have been identified for Military Aircraft: Public Finance inclusion in contingency plans for the UK to contribute to a no-fly zone over Libya; and how many Mr Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (a) air-to-air capable aircraft, (b) ground attack what estimate has been made of the cost to the public aircraft, (c) air-to-air refuelling tankers, (d) AWACS purse of establishing support facilities in Malta for (a) aircraft and (e) other supporting assets and personnel RAF Tornado aircraft, (b) RAF Typhoon aircraft, (c) will be included in such plans. [45382] RAF AWACS aircraft, (d) RAF air-to-air refuelling tankers and (e) support infrastructure and personnel; Nick Harvey: The Government keeps plans for the and whether any additional costs would be funded use of our armed forces under constant review. A from the contingency reserve. [45381] number of contingency plans, including for further humanitarian assistance, enforcing an arms embargo and the implementation of a no-fly zone, are being Nick Harvey: There are currently no RAF Tornados, considered by NATO with respect to Libya. No decisions RAF Typhoons, RAF AWACS or RAF air-to-air refuelling have been taken and no assets have been committed. tankers based in Malta and we have no plans for such basing in the future. The additional costs of support Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence infrastructure and personnel for the recent deployment what assessment he has made of the adequacy of the to Malta are currently being assessed and it would be UK’s fast jet capability; and if he will make a premature to release them at this point. We are looking statement. [45931] at whether there are additional costs for evacuating entitled personnel from Libya that it would be appropriate Nick Harvey [holding answer 14 March 2011]: In the to recover from the reserve or other Government air defence role Typhoon aircraft are held at readiness Departments. 219W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 220W

Military Bases The MOD keeps the base porting arrangements for its ships and submarines under continuous review, but, Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for at this time, we have no plans to announce any other Defence (1) whether the (a) sale and (b) demolition of base porting changes beyond those outlined above. Hyde Park Barracks is being considered as part of the rationalisation of the defence estate; [45759] Nimrod Aircraft: Decommissioning (2) what discussions (a) Ministers in his Department and (b) his officials have had on the (i) sale and (ii) Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for demolition of Hyde Park Barracks. [45760] Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to the public purse of the decommissioning of the Nimrod Mr Robathan: We keep our estate under continuous MRA4 fleet. [46600] review to ensure that it is no larger than is required for defence purposes. Peter Luff [holding answer 14 March 2011]: I refer So far as Hyde Park Barracks is concerned, in addition the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister to the ongoing review of the defence estate, officials for the Armed Forces, my hon. Friend the Member for have considered the future use of the barracks, but there North Devon (Nick Harvey), on 13 January 2011, Official are currently no plans to redevelop the site. Report, column 445W,to the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris). National Security Council Royal Fleet Auxiliary Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what military personnel serve on the Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for secretariat of the National Security Council. [45870] Defence what his policy is on the involvement of the private sector in the Royal Navy in addition to the Dr Fox: The secretariat to the National Security Royal Fleet Auxiliary. [45352] Council consists of two civilian staff posts. It has no military staff. Nick Harvey: The private sector supports the Naval The National Security Secretariat, which supports Service in a range of contracted out activities through the delivery of the national security strategy, comprises commercial policy arrangements and includes training, a broad set of directorates that oversee foreign and maintenance, catering and cleaning. defence policy and security, intelligence, and resilience Additionally, under a private finance initiative functions across Government—as well as co-ordination arrangement six roll-on/roll-off sealift ships (the Point of Government response in the event of civil emergencies, Class) are used to transport military cargoes when terrorist incidents and international crises. required. These are civilian ships with British based The National Security Secretariat has five seconded crews who are required to be sponsored reserves as a military personnel. condition of service. They carry no special protection capability. Therefore, when undertaking military work, Navy: Military Bases any force protection measures would be provided by the armed forces. Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what notice his Department proposes to give Strategic Defence and Security Review to service personnel whose ships are to be transferred under his proposed changes to port-basing. [45925] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence with reference to the Strategic Defence and Mr Robathan [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The Security Review, how much funding he plans to Ministry of Defence is currently examining whether allocate to introducing a new range of medium weight there is a case for changing base porting arrangements armoured vehicles, including Terrier engineer vehicles for the Type 23 frigates. As part of this process consideration and the Scout reconnaissance vehicles. [45899] will be given to the impact on naval service personnel and their families and give them sufficient notice to Peter Luff: £386 million has been approved for the enable them to plan their futures. A decision is expected Terrier engineer vehicle programme which has an in-service by the end of the year. date of 2013. The Scout reconnaissance vehicle is part of the wider Specialist Vehicle (SV) programme. A Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for demonstration phase contract worth approximately Defence when he expects to make an announcement on £500 million was signed in June 2010 for Scout and the port-basing of ships and submarines. [46000] other early elements of the SV programme. No contract has been signed for the manufacture of Scout, and the Nick Harvey [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The remainder of the SV programme has not yet reached its Ministry of Defence (MOD) is examining whether there main investment decision point. The Department does is a case for changing the current base porting arrangements not publish the planned costs of programmes before for the Type 23 frigates. We anticipate a decision being this point. To do otherwise would potentially undermine made by the end of the year, although no date has been our commercial position. set for making any announcements. An announcement on the base porting of the Type 26 Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for global combat ship will be made after the main investment Defence with reference to the Strategic Defence and decision point, which is anticipated to be by the middle Security Review, which Intelligence, Surveillance, of this decade. Target Acquisition and Reconnaissance capabilities 221W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 222W will receive increased funding from his Department in Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for each year of the Comprehensive Spending Review Defence what level of reduction in the planned number period. [45902] of Joint Strike Fighter aircraft he expects to arise as a result of the outcome of the Strategic Defence and Peter Luff: I refer the right hon. Member to the Security Review. [45911] answer I gave on 30 November 2010, Official Report, Peter Luff: I refer the right hon. Member to the column 748W. answer I gave on 3 November 2010, Official Report, columns 852-3W to the hon. Member for Glenrothes Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for (Lindsay Roy), the hon. Member for North Durham Defence (1) how much he expects his Department to (Mr Jones) and the hon. Member for Moray (Angus save as a result of the commitment in the Strategic Robertson). Defence and Security Review to rationalise wider equipment holdings in each year of the comprehensive Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for spending review period; [45903] Defence (1) what new capabilities he plans to purchase using the funding allocated to cyber security by the (2) how much he expects his Department to save as a Strategic Defence and Security Review; [45913] result of the commitment in the Strategic Defence and Security Review to creating a cost-effective training (2) who sits on the UK Defence Cyber Operations environment in each year of the comprehensive Group; how many times the Group has met since its spending review period; [45907] creation; what the agenda was for each meeting; and what executive powers the Group has; [45914] (3) how much he expects his Department to save as a (3) what plans he has for the allocation of funding result of the commitment in the Strategic Defence and for cyber security announced in the Strategic Defence Security Review to reduce the role of the VC-10 and Security Review; and what capability benefits will transport/tanker aircraft to undertake air-to-air result from this expenditure. [45917] refuelling in each of the comprehensive spending review period; [45912] Mr Robathan: As stated in the National Security (4) how much he expects his Department to save as a Strategy the Government believes that attacks through result of the commitment in the Strategic Defence and cyberspace constitute a threat to our national security Security Review to reductions in spend on media and on a par with terrorism. We are investing an extra communications in each year of the comprehensive £650 million over the spending review period to address spending review period; [45919] this threat. The Ministry of Defence (MOD) will play (5) how much he expects his Department to save as a its part by incorporating cyber security into the mainstream result of the commitment in the Strategic Defence and of defence planning and operations; supported by the Security Review to efficiencies and improvements in establishment of a Defence Cyber Operations Group military training, including the increased use of (DCOG). simulators for air-crew and Army live firing, in each We have set up a formal Defence cyber security year of the comprehensive spending review period. change programme to deliver our Strategic Defence and [45923] Security Review commitments by 2015 and transform the way Defence approaches cyber operations. A two-star military officer has been appointed to drive implementation Peter Luff: I refer the right hon. Member to the and will be chairing a programme board with representation answer I gave on 29 November 2010, Official Report, from within the MOD, the Cabinet Office and other column 582W. It is too early to say what potential Government Departments. We have established a strong savings may accrue from the Strategic Defence and cyber policy and plans team which will develop MOD Security review in all of the detailed categories listed. cyber policy, lay the ground work for the establishment Where estimates of itemised savings have been made, I of the DCOG, and will enhance MOD’s cyber capabilities. am withholding these as their disclosure would prejudice By 2015, the DCOG will be fully operational, manned commercial interests. Much work is now required to and equipped. work through the detailed implications of Strategic Defence and Security Review decisions and their Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for implementation. We will be providing the fullest possible Defence with reference to the strategic defence and information as progress is made. security review (SDSR), how much his Department will bear the risk of the capability gaps that will arise as a Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for result of the outcome of the SDSR. [45920] Defence with reference to the Strategic Defence and Dr Fox: The strategic defence and security review sets Security Review, how much funding he has allocated to out the capabilities we will be enhancing and those we introducing protected support vehicles to replace will be removing or gapping from the armed forces as unprotected versions that are no longer suitable. we move towards the Future Force 2020 structure. We [45906] recognise that there will be risks associated with these decisions. We are managing these risks by: ensuring our Peter Luff: Decisions on the funding of the protected operations in Afghanistan are prioritised; maintaining support vehicles programmes, will be made at their our military strategic intelligence capability; ensuring respective main investment decision points. The Ministry we have adaptable capabilities; deepening our partnerships; of Defence does not publish the planned costs of the preserving the ability to reconstitute our levels of military programmes before this point. To do otherwise would capability in areas which are currently lower priority; potentially undermine our commercial position. and, by maintaining our strategic deterrent. 223W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 224W

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for It should be noted that this list may change depending Defence (1) how much he expects his Department to on the programmes of the submarine fleet. These figures save as a result of the commitment in the Strategic include the full complement of the Royal Navy submarine Defence and Security Review to rationalise his posts (including the system of six crews to man the four Department’s estate including the sale of surplus land Vanguard-class ballistic missile submarines). Also included and buildings and associated running cost reductions are posts for submarine personnel, based in shore positions and running cost savings across the estate in each year across Defence, who are acting in support of the fleet of the Comprehensive Spending Review period; [45921] but not assigned to individual submarines. (2) how much he expects his Department to save as a result of the commitment in the Strategic Defence and Surveillance Security Review to a revised approach to managing and delivering infrastructure services across his Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Department’s estate in each year of the Comprehensive Defence what assessment he has made of the Spending Review period. [45922] surveillance needs of the UK (a) now, (b) in 2015 and (c) in 2020; and what plans he has to meet these needs. Mr Robathan: The Secretary of State for Defence, the [45905] right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), announced on 16 February 2011, Official Report, column Mr Robathan: I refer the right hon. Member to the 78W, that the formation of the Defence Infrastructure answer the Minister for Defence Equipment, Support Organisation would result in savings of some £1.2 billion and Technology, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire for the first four years, from estate running costs, and (Peter Luff), gave on 29 November 2010, Official Report, the disposal of surplus land and buildings. Precise column 583W. details are being finalised, including those as part of the re-basing study currently under way, but we would Voluntary Work and Charitable Donations expect about half of it to be delivered through greater efficiency in the management and delivery of infrastructure services leading to savings in manpower and contract Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for costs. Defence (1) whether his Department has a policy to encourage its employees to (a) volunteer and (b) donate via payroll giving; [43234] Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what capability gaps he has identified as (2) what steps his Department has taken to support resulting from the outcome of the strategic defence and the big society initiative; [42638] security review. [46027] (3) whether (a) he and (b) Ministers in his Department are participating in volunteering activities Dr Fox: To address the deficit in the Defence budget as part of his Department’s involvement in the big and contribute to wider deficit reduction a number of society initiative. [42658] capabilities had to be either removed or gapped. These are set out in the strategic defence and security review Mr Robathan: The big society is an approach and White Paper. philosophy which is at the heart of the Government’s reforms across all policy areas with the aim of localising power and opening up public services and encouraging Submarines social action. Each Department has a range of specific programmes which will contribute to growing the big Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for society.These policies are co-ordinated across Government Defence what the establishment is at all ranks of the through meetings at official and ministerial level, including Royal Navy Submarine Service. [46132] the Informal Ministerial Group on the Big Society and Localism, which shares ideas and supports progress on Mr Robathan [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The cross cutting-issues relating to the big society. permanent posts for the Royal Navy Submarine Service The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has been involved as of March 2011 are: with the big society initiative since its launch in July 2010 with Ministers and Officials attending the inter- Preferred rank Total ministerial and director general meetings respectively. Vice Admiral 2 MOD personnel have also been actively involved in desk level discussion on big society and National Citizen Commodore 5 Service initiatives. Captain 27 Commander 99 My ministerial colleagues and I are committed to Lieutenant Commander 195 leading the way to get more Defence professionals to Lieutenant 310 use their skills through active involvement with charities and voluntary groups. Warrant Office 1 95 Warrant Office 2 204 For civil servants within the MOD, the Department Chief Petty Officer 660 has in place policy, rules and guidance on special leave Petty Officer 390 that provide staff and their managers with a framework Leading Hand 569 within which to support time off to engage in big Able Seaman 922 society goals and volunteering activities. Those can Total 3,478 include local Government work, magisterial duties and other unpaid voluntary public service. 225W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 226W

There are a number of initiatives already in place, HOME DEPARTMENT including: Cadet Forces: 101 Calls The Ministry of Defence has four sponsored Cadet Forces: the Sea Cadet Corps, the Army Cadet Force, the Air Cadet Force and Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Combined Cadet Force. They are among the UK’s largest and Home Department what recent assessment she has most successful youth organisations, having a long history of made of the level of usage of the national non- preparing young people for all walks of life and encouraging an emergency number. [42944] active involvement in local communities. There are currently 133,000 cadets and 25,000 adult volunteers across the cadet movement. Nick Herbert: The ‘101’ non-emergency telephone number is not yet a national service. Defence Youth Engagement Review: The MOD is currently conducting a comprehensive review of Arrests: Brighton youth engagement with the aim of determining its youth engagement requirement and methods to deliver it. Interim findings are anticipated in mid 2011 and final recommendations by the end of 2011 Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for The MOD Education Outreach Programme: the Home Department (1) how many arrests were made in Brighton and Hove under section 73 of the Criminal A programme aimed at ‘giving students a start’. The MOD Justice and Public Order Act 1994 in (a) 2008, (b) undertakes this as a demonstration of commitment to our corporate (c) [45418] social responsibility and a visible contribution to helping develop 2009 and 2010; the skills of the next generation. The programme provides a (2) how many arrests were made in Brighton and tangible example of the volunteering ethos of the MOD staff, Hove under section 6 (1) of the Criminal Law Act 1977 both military and civilian, and relies on over 30 mentors and in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010. [45395] supporters, all of whom are volunteers. Additionally in the south west, HMS Raleigh is assisting James Brokenshire: The information requested on Torbay YouthService with their National Citizen Service arrests is not collected centrally. by providing a week’s accommodation for two pilot The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers programmes. arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, Across the civil service, Departments including the broken down at a main offence group level, covering MOD recently communicated a policy encouraging staff categories such as violence against the person and robbery. to make full use of special leave provision in their From these centrally reported categories, it is not possible particular Department to volunteer for the 2012 Olympics, to identify arrests under the particular acts stated. as well as contributing their own time alongside any The most recent data published on arrests (2008-09) given by Departments. by the Home Office can be found at the following link: MOD employees are able to contribute to charities http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/police-powers.html by deduction from salary or pension. Regular articles in ‘in house’ magazines encourage staff to donate via Asylum payroll giving. To build on this further and to support the big society Richard Graham: To ask the Secretary of State for initiative, the MOD will continue to work alongside the Home Department what the average length of time other Government Departments through the Civil Service elapsed between an application for asylum and final Volunteering Group to communicate to all staff what determination of the case in the last 12 months for opportunities will be available to them, and encourage which figures are available. [44434] their participation. Damian Green: In the last 12 months the average length of time elapsed between an application for asylum Warships: Repairs and Maintenance and final determination of the case was 263 calendar days. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for In answering this question we have assumed the date Defence pursuant to the answer of 8 March 2011, of final determination to be the date an application was Official Report, column 917W, on submarines and either granted or became appeal rights exhausted (ARE) warships, what the (a) name and (b) type is of each (i) For those cases which either destroyer and (ii) frigate not currently part of the (1) had no re-course to appeal; operational schedule undergoing deep maintenance. (2) chose not to exercise appeal rights; or [46133] (3) appealed out-of-time, we have taken final determination to be the date of initial decision. Peter Luff [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The All figures quoted are internal management information Type 23 frigates HMS Northumberland, HMS Lancaster only and are subject to change. This information has and HMS Kent are currently in refit. In addition the not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols. Type 42 destroyer HMS Edinburgh and Type 23 Frigate HMS Argyll are both in post refit sea training Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the and the Type 45 HMS Dauntless, which has recently Home Department what steps she plans to take to joined the fleet, has not completed basic operational sea ensure refugees can access (a) employment, (b) training. These ships are also therefore not available for housing and (c) financial assistance from 1 April 2011; operations. and if she will make a statement. [46187] 227W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 228W

Damian Green: Individuals granted refugee status address the integration needs of refugees. The membership have full entitlement to access public funds and services. will include representatives from other Government The Refugee Integration and Employment Service Departments. currently provides help and support for new refugees in addressing their integration needs and accessing their Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for the entitlements. These contracts expire in September 2011 Home Department what assessment her Department in line with the agreed contract term. has made of the likely effect on the budgets of (a) other Government departments and (b) local From October it is proposed that the most vulnerable authorities of the cessation of her Department’s new refugees will continue to be able to access advice funding for refugee integration. [45888] and signposting through the end to end advisory and support services for refugees and asylum seekers which Damian Green: Individuals granted refugee status will continue to be delivered under extended agreements have full entitlement to access public funds and services. with the voluntary sector. The impact of the reduction in funding on the budgets of other Departments and local authorities will therefore Asylum: Advisory Services be minimal. UK Border Agency officials will be co-chairing a working group with the voluntary sector to identify Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the practical cost neutral solutions to address the integration Home Department whether she plans to make an needs of refugees. The membership will include assessment of the effects on refugees of reductions in representatives from other Government Departments. the budget for advice services for refugees at the end of financial year 2011-12; and if she will make a Asylum: Scotland statement. [46186] Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: The Government have extended grant Home Department whether she has any plans to open agreements with voluntary sector partners to provide an office of the UK Border Agency to process claims advice and support services for asylum seekers for a relating to asylum seekers resident in Scotland in (a) further period of two years. The levels of funding Glasgow, (b) Edinburgh and (c) Aberdeen. [46004] provided by these grant agreements have been reduced in line with reductions in the numbers of people claiming Damian Green [holding answer 14 March 2011]: There asylum and in the numbers of people in receipt of are currently no plans to open an asylum screening unit asylum support and therefore in need of these services. in Scotland; however claims relating to asylum seekers are routinely processed at our offices in Glasgow after Asylum: Community Relations initial screening. We have always been clear that anyone seeking asylum Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for the should do so at the first available opportunity—this Home Department what assessment her Department means on arrival at a port of entry. Only those who have has made of the potential effects on levels of failed to claim on arrival have to travel to Croydon to community cohesion of reductions in funding for make their asylum application. refugee integration programmes. [45886] We recognise there may be a small number of exceptional cases who are unable to travel to Croydon. Applicants, Damian Green: We do not believe that the reductions whose circumstances are such that they are unable to in funding for refugee integration activity will have a travel to Croydon, may have their application recorded significant impact on community cohesion. It is proposed and screened at a local regional office. This will be that the most vulnerable new refugees will continue to decided on a case-by-case basis. be able to access advice and signposting through the end to end advisory and support services for refugees Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for the and asylum seekers which will continue to be delivered Home Department what estimate she has made of the under extended agreements with the voluntary sector. annual cost to the public purse of processing initial UK Border Agency officials will be co-chairing a working applications for asylums in Scotland. [46005] group with the voluntary sector to identify practical, cost neutral, solutions to address the integration needs Damian Green [holding answer 14 March 2011]: We of refugees. do not hold these cost estimates but we are currently developing a process to cost our different outputs, for Ben Gummer: To ask the Secretary of State for the example asylum conclusion. We will seek to publish this Home Department what plans she has for future information in due course. funding for the integration of refugees after they are granted limited leave to remain. [45887] Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment she has made Damian Green: It is proposed that the most vulnerable of the effects of reductions in the budget for the UK new refugees will continue to be able to access advice Border Agency on refugee charities in Scotland in and signposting through the end to end advisory and receipt of funding from that body. [46421] support services for refugees and asylum seekers which will continue to be delivered under extended agreements Damian Green: The Government have extended grant with the voluntary sector. UK Border Agency officials agreements with voluntary sector partners in Scotland will be co-chairing a working group with the voluntary to provide advice and support services for asylum seekers sector to identify practical, cost neutral, solutions to for a further period of two years. The levels of funding 229W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 230W provided by these grant agreements have been reduced Naturalisation cases attending a British citizenship ceremony in the London 1 in line with reductions in the numbers of people claiming boroughs, 2005-10 asylum and in the numbers of people in receipt of Ceremony attended asylum support and therefore in need of these services. Local authority 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 Enfield 2,740 2,620 2,325 1,925 2,900 2,415 Avi Benayahu Greenwich 1,640 1,375 1,620 905 1,600 1,405 Hackney 2,375 2,195 1,820 1,355 2,065 1,805 Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the Hammersmith 1,550 1,505 1,545 915 1,230 1,040 Home Department what assessment she has made of and Fulham the circumstances of Mr Avi Benayahu’s entry into the Haringey 3,065 2,390 2,215 1,665 2,150 1,830 UK in 2010; and what her policy is on the use by Harrow 2,385 1,735 2,275 1,370 2,290 2,300 foreign nationals of false names on entry into the UK. Havering 3B0 340 450 265 480 440 [46622] Hillingdon 1,705 1,440 1,930 1,275 1,870 1,890 Hounslow 2,260 2,015 2,260 1,635 2,225 2,120 Damian Green: The Home Office does not routinely Islington 1,610 1,630 1,675 1,025 1,655 1,300 comment on individual cases. As part of the UK Border Kensington 1,590 1,140 1,300 755 1,220 1,015 Agency’s responsibility to secure the border and identify and Chelsea Kingston upon 785 680 1,035 525 935 690 and prevent crime, its officers check all arriving passengers Thames against the Watchlist and examine documents to ensure Lambeth 2,415 2,215 2,255 1,525 2,070 1,715 that they are genuine. Lewisham 1,925 1,650 2,130 1,350 1,905 1,720 Merton 1,440 1,485 1,780 1,060 1,915 1,715 Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the Newham 3,335 3,025 3,035 2,305 3,545 3,320 Home Department when her Department was first Redbridge 2,015 1,750 1,875 1,225 2,090 2,070 informed of the intention of Mr Avi Benayahu to enter Richmond 835 715 790 480 780 675 the UK under a false identity. [46623] upon Thames Southwark 2,610 2,395 2,720 1,825 2,815 2,550 Damian Green: The Home Office does not routinely Tower Hamlets 1,555 1,860 1,345 1,265 2,790 2,460 comment on individual cases. Waltham 1,990 1,830 1,835 1,430 1,890 1,710 Forest British Nationality Wandsworth 2,025 2,080 2,305 1,630 2,510 2,160 Westminster 2,415 2,080 2,490 1,510 2,055 1,890 Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 5, totals may not sum to their components due to rounding. Home Department how many people resident in each Source: London borough have been naturalised as UK citizens Local Management Information provided by UK Border Agency, North West since 2005. [45409] Region Planning and MI Team and is not a National Statistic. As such it should be treated as provisional and therefore subject to change.

Damian Green: In order to become naturalised as a Departmental Land British citizen an applicant needs to have attended a citizenship ceremony. The following table provides information relating to the number of applicants for Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for the naturalisation who have attended a citizenship ceremony. Home Department if she will take steps to reduce the size of her Department’s estate; and if she will make a This information is taken from local management statement. [46223] information provided by UK Border Agency, North West Region Planning and MI Team. It is not a National Statistic and as such it should be treated as provisional Damian Green: The Department is taking steps to and therefore subject to change. reduce the size of its office estate. Measures to deliver this include consolidation of accommodation across Naturalisation cases attending a British citizenship ceremony in the London 1 the Home Office Group and the adoption where practicable boroughs, 2005-10 of the Government’s workplace standards of eight square Ceremony attended metres per person and a ratio of eight workstations per Local authority 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 10 staff. Estate consolidations are under way in London, Total Greater 62,075 55,375 60,945 41,265 62,740 56,390 Croydon and Liverpool. In Croydon for instance buildings London totalling 26000 square metres were surrendered last December. Plans for further significant consolidations Barking and 1,505 1,385 1,600 970 1,750 1,510 are being developed in other major cities and in back Dagenham office accommodation held at ports of entry. Barnet 2,715 2,290 2,770 1,925 2,735 2,315 Bexley 580 540 600 390 740 595 Departmental Procurement Borough of 630 575 850 500 800 815 Sutton (London) Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for the Brent 3,530 3,120 3,380 2,360 3,245 3,060 Home Department how many procurement projects Bromley 715 675 850 550 905 900 with a monetary value greater than (a) £10 million, Camden 1,965 1,675 1,860 1,210 2,185 1,995 (b) £50 million and (c) £100 million (i) her Corporation of 80 85 85 55 35 20 the City of Department and (ii) each non-departmental public London body and agency for which she is responsible was Croydon 1,940 1,850 2,105 1,540 2,190 1,990 engaged upon in the latest period for which figures are Ealing 3,775 3,040 3,835 2,520 3,175 2,940 available. [45567] 231W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 232W

Damian Green: The number of current procurement Human Trafficking: Olympic Games 2012 projects and programmes in the Home Office, including its agencies and non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs) Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for the is as follows: Home Department what steps she has taken to assess the risk of human trafficking in the period before the Whole life cost (£ million) Number London 2012 Olympics. [46326] (a) £10 million to <£50 million 23 Damian Green: Intelligence on risks to the 2012 Olympics, (b) £50 million to <£100 million 5 including human trafficking, is assessed on a quarterly (c) £100 million+ 25 basis through the Olympics organised crime threat assessment. The values represent the whole life costs of the projects and programmes and thus include past, current and Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for the future costs. Home Department whether she plans to allocate resources to the Metropolitan police for work to Departmental Regulation counter the risk of human trafficking during the period of the London 2012 Olympics. [46379] Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department on how many occasions her Damian Green: Tackling human trafficking is core Department has consulted representatives of small police business. To date we have not seen any evidence businesses on the effects of proposed new regulations of an increase in trafficking around the Olympics. However, since 6 May 2010. [46144] we remain vigilant and the Metropolitan police service has received extra funding from the Migration Impact Damian Green: There have been 16 public consultations Fund to prioritise activities to disrupt prostitution and by the Home Department since 6 May 2010 which have recover victims around the Olympic park. been published on the Home Office website at: Identity Cards: Foreign Nationals http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/consultations/ Representatives of small business are asked to contribute Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the when this is appropriate. In addition, representatives Home Department how many biometric residence are consulted on a more informal basis in routine policy permits she expects to be issued to non-EEA nationals development by the Department. in each of the five years from 2011. [46446]

Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for the Damian Green: Based on previous levels, and grants, Home Department what regulations her Department of applications for leave to remain it is estimated that introduced between 9 and 28 February 2011. [46955] approximately 340,000 biometric residence permits (BRPs) will be issued each year, subject to any policy changes. Damian Green: The information requested is shown in the following table. Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the The following three statutory instruments in the form Home Department how many biometric residence of regulations were made by the Home Department permits have been issued to non-EEA foreign nationals. between 9 and 28 February 2011. [46447]

S.I. number S.I. title Made date Damian Green: Biometric residence permits were introduced on 25 November 2008 and as at 4 March 2011 No. 300 The Police Act 1996 (Equipment) 9 February 2011, just over 409,000 have been issued. Regulations 2011 2011 2011 No. 448 The Misuse of Drugs 18 Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the (Amendment) (England, Wales February and Scotland) Regulations 2011 2011 Home Department what estimate she has made of the 2011 No. 544 The Accession (Immigration and 24 cost to the public purse of issuing biometric residence Worker Registration)(Revocation, February permits to non-EEA foreign nationals. [46448] Savings and Consequential 2011 Provisions) Regulations 2011 Damian Green: There is no cost to the public purse in issuing biometric residence permits to non-European Departmental Written Questions economic area (EEA) nationals. Costs are met by the fees recovered from applicants and the financial benefits accruing from the issue of biometric residence permits. Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proportion of written Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the questions tabled to her for answer on a named day Home Department if she will state (a) how and (b) between 27 May 2010 and 9 March 2011 did not receive where biometric data from residence permits issued to a substantive answer on the day named for answer. non-EEA foreign nationals will be stored. [46449] [46559] Damian Green: The UK Border Agency collects a James Brokenshire: From 27 May 2010 until 9 March facial image and 10 fingerprints, from each non-EEA 2011, the Home Office gave a substantive answer to 260 foreign national applicant applying for a biometric residence out of 777 (33.5%) questions for answer on a named permit, which are stored electronically on the agency’s day on the day named for answer. database and on the permit. 233W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 234W

Illegal Immigrants: Taxation Damian Green: Each of the five UK Border Agency approved accreditation bodies were approved for an Mr Byrne: To ask the Secretary of State for the initial period of two years. The Accreditation Service Home Department if she will estimate the number of for International Colleges, Accreditation UK, the British illegal migrants working in the UK who (a) pay tax Accreditation Council were all approved in July 2007. and (b) make national insurance contributions. [46409] The Association of British Language Schools was approved in March 2009, and the Church of England Ministry Damian Green: There is no official Government Division in May .2009. The government has made clear estimation for the number of illegal workers in the UK in it recent consultation on student visas that it intends and it is therefore not possible to estimate how many to strengthen the current arrangements for accreditation. illegal migrants working in the UK pay tax or make The existing approvals have not therefore been formally national insurance contributions. renewed, pending decisions on the longer-term arrangements. However the accreditation bodies are Immigrants: English Language continuing to provide the service for which they were approved. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department by what means she ensures that Immigration Controls: Musicians providers of secure English language tests adhere to the Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for Common European Framework. [45814] the Home Department if she will take steps to facilitate Damian Green: To date the UK Border Agency has the granting of work permits and visas to foreign conducted its own checks to ensure that providers of professional musicians invited to perform at concerts in secure English language tests adhere to the Common the UK. [46719] European Framework of Reference (CEFR). Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is committed The UK Border Agency is currently refreshing its list to providing a first-class visa service meeting its customer of providers and is requiring prospective providers to service targets for processing applications. 95% of non- provide evidence to show how their tests map against settlement applications are processed within three weeks the CEFR. The UK Border Agency is verifying this and many applications are dealt with much faster. Although mapping with the help of an independent expert in the applicants are advised to allow sufficient time for their CEFR. applications to be processed, visa sections overseas recognise The UK Border Agency will be carrying out independent that this is not always possible and will expedite cases checks to ensure that tests being completed conform to where there is an urgent and genuine need to travel. the relevant level on the CEFR. The agency’s partnerships and engagement team also often helps secure visas for musicians and other artists Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the in cases of last minute substitution or injury. The team Home Department how many student visas included regularly receives positive feedback from the arts and the requirement for the applicant to have passed a entertainment sector on its service delivery and intervention secure English language test in the last 12 months; and in high profile and genuine cases. how many such tests were administered by each provider. [45815] Missing Persons Damian Green: Secure English Language Testing (SELT) Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for the for Tier 4 (General) Student Visa applicants wishing to Home Department pursuant to the Parliamentary study a course below degree level was introduced on Under-Secretary of States contribution on 26 October 12 August 2010. There are exemptions for: 2011, Official Report, column 59WH, on missing applicants intending to study for foundation degrees; persons, when she expects to publish the findings of the applicants intending to study for English language courses, review into the recommendations of the Missing including pre-sessional courses; Taskforce Review. [44311] applicants from majority English speaking countries; and James Brokenshire: The Home Office has carried out applicants those moving from Tier 4 (Child). an assessment of the 22 recommendations in the Missing There is no English language requirement for Tier 4 Taskforce Review. Seven have already been delivered, (Child) applicants. action is under way on a further 10 and the remainder The UK Border Agency does not keep a separate are subject to further consideration. We are working central record of those applicants who are required to with our counterparts in other Government Departments pass the SELT. This information could be obtained by to consider what further action is needed in this important checking individual records only at disproportionate area, taking account of other relevant developments cost. including, for example, the Munro Review of Child The UK Border Agency does not have a record of Protection and the transfer of responsibility for missing how many tests have been administered by each provider. children from the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) to the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Immigration Controls (CEOP). Police: Crime Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many accreditation bodies Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the are currently approved by the UK Border Agency; and Home Department what the (a) number of police when that approval is scheduled to end in each case. officers and (b) crime rate was in the North Wales [46749] police force area in each of the last 20 years. [44760] 235W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 236W

Nick Herbert: Data on police officer strength in Table B: Offences recorded in North Wales per 100,000 population North Wales as at 31 March 1990 to 31 March 2009 and Rate per 100,000 population 30 September 2010 are given in Table A. Offences 2004-05 8,051 recorded in North Wales per 100,000 population, from 2005-06 7,488 1990 to 2009-10 are given in Table B. 2006-07 7,957 The latest provisional Police Service Strength statistics 2007-08 6,766 were published on 27 January 2011 and can be found at: 2008-09 6,824 http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/policeorg1.html 2009-10 6,626 1 The coverage was expanded and counting rules changed in 1998-99. Figures Bulletins for this and previous years are deposited in the before and after that date are not directly comparable. Library of the House. 2 The National Crime Recording Standard was introduced in 2002-03. Figures before and after that date are not directly comparable. The latest financial year recorded crime statistics were published in July 2010 and are available online at: Police: Local Government http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/crimeew0910.html Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for the Table A: Police officer strength (FTE)1 in North Wales as at 31 March 1990 to Home Department whether she has plans to enable 31 March 20092,3 and 30 September 2010 local authorities to access police data systems in order Police officer strength to tackle housing benefit and council tax fraud. [45216] 1990 1,337 1991 1,349 Nick Herbert: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply 1992 1,347 given on 7 March 2011, Official Report, column 872W. 1993 1,360 Students: Visas 1994 1,352 1995 1,366 Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 1996 1,378 the Home Department from how many UK 1997 1,369 institutions graduates can receive a post study work 1998 1,396 visa; and for what types of degrees in each case. [46799] 1999 1,391 2000 1,403 Damian Green: The information is not centrally recorded 2001 1,444 in the format requested and could be obtained by a 2002 1,506 manual check of individual case records only at 3 2003 1,539 disproportionate cost. 20043 1,603 20053 1,645 Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for 20063 1,617 the Home Department how many people received a 20073 1,591 post-study work visa in 2009; and how many such 20083 1,566 people had received a (a) UK recognised bachelor or 20093 1,578 postgraduate degree, (b) a UK postgraduate certificate 20103 1,573 in education or Professional Graduate Diploma of 30 September 2010 1,547 Education and (c) a Higher National Diploma from a 1. Full Time Equivalent. All officers less staff on career breaks or maternity/paternity Scottish institution. [46800] leave (comparable with previously published figures) 2. This and other tables contain full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded to the nearest whole number. Because of rounding, there may be an Damian Green: In 2009 38,425 post study work visas apparent discrepancy between totals and the sums of the constituent items. were issued. 3. Comparable strength (excludes those on career breaks, or maternity/paternity leave). The Police Numbers Task Force (2001) recommended that a clear In order to qualify for a post study work visa either a presentation was made of the numbers of staff employed by police forces migrant must have been awarded a United Kingdom including those seconded into the force and those on any type of long or short term absence. These new calculations were first used in 2003, and are not recognised bachelor’s or postgraduate degree, a United comparable with data prior to March 2003. The data from 2003 onwards used Kingdom Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE) here are termed comparable because they have been calculated on the old basis or Professional Graduate Diploma of Education (PGDE), to allow comparison. or Higher National Diploma (HND) from a Scottish Table B: Offences recorded in North Wales per 100,000 population institution. It is not possible to provide a breakdown of Rate per 100,000 population which of these degree types are used to qualify under this route. 1990 5,805 1991 6,804 Vetting 1992 7,537 1993 7,351 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1994 6,623 Home Department what the policy of the Criminal 1995 6,331 Records Bureau is on who may use the title Ms in 1996 6,228 applications for a Criminal Records Bureau check. 1997 16,203 [45761] 1998-99 6,684 1999-2000 6,785 Lynne Featherstone: The Criminal Records Bureau 2000-01 7,207 (CRB) has no policy which outlines who may use the 2001-02 28,154 title Ms. There are no restrictions placed by the CRB on 2002-03 9,807 applicants as to which title they choose to use when 2003-04 9,263 completing a CRB application form. 237W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 238W

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for the HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate: Home Department how many people were subject to a Redundancy discretionary bar by the Independent Safeguarding Authority in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [46006] Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General (1) how much funding HM Crown Prosecution Service Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 14 March 2011]: Inspectorate has allocated to redundancy costs in each The Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA) commenced financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15; [46188] independent decision-making on 20 January 2009. Using (2) how many staff HM Crown Prosecution Service its discretionary barring powers, the ISA barred 28 people Inspectorate expects to make (a) voluntarily and (b) in 2009 and 422 people in 2010. compulsorily redundant in (i) 2010-11 and (ii) each This figure excludes barring decisions for auto-bar year from 2011-12 to 2014-15; and from what roles he offences, as well as any barring decisions made on those expects such staff to be made redundant; [46189] people who were included on the previous barred lists (3) how much HM Crown Prosecution Service and whom the ISA has ‘determined’under the Safeguarding Inspectorate has spent on redundancy costs in 2010-11 Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, (Transitory Provisions) to date; [46191] Order 2009 should be placed on the ISA barred lists. (4) how many staff HM Crown Prosecution Service Diana Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Inspectorate has made redundant in 2010-11 to date; Home Department how many Criminal Records and from what roles such staff have been made Bureau checks were issued in 2010 to those working in redundant; [46192] the gaming industry. [46813] (5) how much funding HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate allocated to redundancy costs in Lynne Featherstone: The information requested is not 2010-11. [46190] recorded by the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB). When making applications for CRB checks, individuals and The Solicitor-General: HM Crown Prosecution Service employers are asked to provide the details of the specific Inspectorate has not made any staff redundant in 2010-11 position that is being applied for rather than the employment and has no plans to do so. Currently there are also no sector or industry. plans for any staff redundancies in the period 2011-12 to 2014-15, and consequently no funds have been allocated to cover redundancies over this period. ATTORNEY-GENERAL Serious Fraud Office: Redundancy Confiscation Orders Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General (1) how much funding the Serious Fraud Office has how many confiscation orders have been obtained by allocated to redundancy costs in each financial year the Serious Fraud Office’s Proceeds of Crime Unit in from 2011-12 to 2014-15; [46250] 2010-11 to date; and what the total monetary value is (2) how many staff the Serious Fraud Office expects of such orders. [46265] to make (a) voluntarily and (b) compulsorily redundant in each financial year from 2011-12 to The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office has 2014-15; [46251] obtained 14 confiscation orders in the financial year to (3) how many staff the Serious Fraud Office expects date. The total value of these orders is £28,307,690.66. to make redundant in each financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15; and from what roles staff are expected to be Fraud: Prosecutions made redundant; [46252] Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General (4) how much funding the Serious Fraud Office (1) how many people have been convicted in cases allocated to meet redundancy costs in 2010-11; [46253] brought by the Serious Fraud Office in 2010-11; and (5) how many staff the Serious Fraud Office expects what the conviction rate for cases brought by the to make (a) voluntarily and (b) compulsorily Serious Fraud Office has been in 2010-11 to date; redundant in 2010-11; [46254] [46260] (6) how many staff the Serious Fraud Office expects (2) how many cases have been brought by the Serious to make redundant in 2010-11; and from what roles Fraud Office in 2010-11; and how many defendants staff are expected to be made redundant; [46255] have been tried in such cases; [46261] (7) how much the Serious Fraud Office has spent on (3) what the caseload of the Serious Fraud Office has redundancy costs in 2010-11 to date; [46256] been in 2010-11 to date. [46262] (8) how many staff the Serious Fraud Office has made redundant in 2010-11 to date; and from what The Attorney-General: The conviction rate for cases roles staff have been made redundant. [46266] concluded so far in year 2010-11 is 83%. 30 defendants were tried (individuals and corporates). Of these The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) 30 defendants 25 were found guilty and five were acquitted. has not made any staff redundant in the 2010-11 period This covered a total of 15 cases. or has any plans to do so. The SFO also has no current The Serious Fraud Office case load naturally fluctuates plans for voluntary or compulsory redundancies for the throughout the year, on average they handle around 100 period 2011-12 to 2014-15 and consequently no monies active cases. These cases will be at pre trial, trial and have been set aside in this period for compulsory or post trial stages. voluntary redundancy. 239W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 240W

Treasury Solicitors Department: Finance largely determined by client demand. There will be reductions in back office staff but it is anticipated that Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General they will be redeployed on client work. (1) what the (a) resource and (b) capital budget of the It is not, therefore, currently planned to change the Treasury Solicitors Department (i) is in 2010-11 and (ii) overall number of staff during the spending review will be in each year of the comprehensive spending period. review period; [46229] (2) what the (a) resource and (b) capital budget of Treasury Solicitors Dept: Redundancy the Treasury Solicitors Department (i) is for 2010-11 and (ii) will be in each year of the Comprehensive Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General Spending Review period. [46247] (1) how much the Treasury Solicitors Department has spent on redundancy costs in 2010-11 to date; [46233] The Solicitor-General: The information requested is contained in the following table. (2) how many staff the Treasury Solicitors Department has made redundant in 2010-11 to date; Treasury Solicitors Department and from what roles staff have been made redundant; £ [46234] Resource Capital (3) how many staff the Treasury Solicitors 2010-11 4,785,000 3,510,000 Department expects to make redundant in 2010-11; 2011-12 5,240,000 1,700,000 and from what roles staff are expected to be made 2012-13 5,140,000 1,700,000 redundant; [46235] 2013-14 4,540,000 1,700,000 (4) how many staff the Treasury Solicitors 2014-15 3,660,000 1,700,000 Department expects to make (a) voluntarily and (b) compulsorily redundant in 2010-11; [46236] Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General under what budget headings reductions in expenditure (5) how much funding the Treasury Solicitors will be made by the Treasury Solicitors Department Department has allocated to meet redundancy costs in following the outcome of the comprehensive spending 2010-11. [46237] review; and by how much expenditure will be reduced The Solicitor-General: The Treasury Solicitors under each heading. [46246] Department have not made any staff redundant in The Solicitor-General: The planned expenditure for 2010-11 and no redundancy costs have been incurred. the Treasury Solicitors Department over the spending There are no plans for staff redundancies in 2010-11 review period as agreed with Treasury is as follows: and thus no funds have been allocated to meet redundancy costs. £ Revenue Capital Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General 2010-11 4,785,000 3,510,000 (1) how many staff the Treasury Solicitors Department 2011-12 5,240,000 1,700,000 expects to make (a) voluntarily and (b) compulsorily 2012-13 5,140,000 1,700,000 redundant in each financial year from 2011-12 to 2013-14 4,540,000 1,700,000 2014-15; and from what roles staff are expected to be 2014-15 3,660,000 1,700,000 made redundant; [46238] (2) how much funding the Treasury Solicitors The revenue funding is to cover three budget headings: Department has allocated to redundancy costs in each the cost of the public interest work TSol undertakes for financial year from 2011-12 to 2014-15. [46239] the Attorney-General, our European division and the Government Legal Service (GLS) Secretariat. The The Solicitor-General: The Treasury Solicitors expenditure will reduce by 33% in real terms over the Department has no plans for any staff redundancies spending review period from 2010-11 levels. from 2011-12 to 2014-15 at this stage and no funds have The capital funding is to meet our administration been specifically allocated to redundancies in budgets capital requirements. over this period. Treasury Solicitors Department: Manpower The Treasury Solicitor’s Department provides legal services to Government Departments, who pay for the Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Attorney-General cost of those services. Staffing levels are, therefore, how many (a) permanent and (b) non-permanent largely determined by client demand. There will be staff the Treasury Solicitors Department expects to reductions in back office staff but it is anticipated that employ at (i) the end of March 2011 and (ii) the end of they will be redeployed on client work. each subsequent financial year in the comprehensive spending review period. [46232] The Solicitor-General: The Treasury Solicitors PRIME MINISTER Department expects to employ (a) 819 full-time equivalent permanent staff and (b) 75 full-time equivalent non National Security Council: Manpower permanent staff at the end of March 2011. The Treasury Solicitor’s Department provides legal Nicholas Soames: To ask the Prime Minister what the services to Government Departments, who pay for the (a) civilian and (b) military staff establishment is of cost of those services. Staffing levels are, therefore, the secretariat of the National Security Council. [46686] 241W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 242W

The Prime Minister: My National Security Adviser The number of cases currently being handled by the Child (Sir Peter Ricketts) is the Secretary to the National Support Agency, where the parent with care lives in Dartford Security Council. The secretariat to the National Security parliamentary constituency, are shown in the table below. Figures Council consists of two civilian staff posts. include all live cases and also cases without a current assessment but where arrears are still owed from a previous assessment. The figures also include those cases which are managed off the main computer system from December 2008. WORK AND PENSIONS Children: Maintenance Quarter ending as at December each year Cases

Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006 1,850 Work and Pensions how many and what proportion of 2007 1,930 child maintenance cases with an assessment and 2008 2,010 payment schedule were fully compliant in the 12 2009 1,890 months to the end of March 2010; and what 2010 1,780 proportion of such cases (a) resulted in payments of Notes: (i) 50 per cent. or more and (ii) less than 50 per cent. of 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Figures based on cases where the parent with care lives in Dartford constituency. the child maintenance due and (b) were wholly 3. Figures reflect the performance of cases administered off system from non-compliant. [4755] December 2008. 4. It should be noted that the parliamentary constituency of Dartford had its Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement boundary redrawn at the time of the 2010 general election. The caseload figure as at December 2010 is therefore not comparable with the figures prior to this Commission is responsible for the child maintenance date. system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner I hope you find this answer helpful. to write to the hon. Member with the information requested and I have seen the response. Crisis Loans Letter from Stephen Geraghty: In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary and Pensions what (a) impact assessment and (b) of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner. consultation his Department has undertaken on its You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how decision on the future (i) level and (ii) availability of many and what proportion of child maintenance cases with an social fund crisis loans. [45536] assessment and payment schedule were fully compliant in the 12 months to the end of March 2010; and what proportion of such Steve Webb: The current system of crisis loans is cases (a) resulted in payments of (i) 50 per cent. or more and (ii) poorly targeted and open to abuse; for example, some less than 50 per cent. of the child maintenance due and (b) were 17,000 people received 10 or more crisis loans in the last wholly non-compliant. 12 months. As outlined in my written ministerial statement In the 12 months to March 2010, 769,200 cases paid maintenance of 3 March 2010, Official Report, columns 45-46WS, out of 944,300 cases that had a liability and or payment schedule we have had to take urgent action to bring spending on at some point across the same period. 327,500 cases (35%) were fully compliant for the 12 month period, this includes cases which crisis loans back under control and ensure we can were only liable for maintenance for part of the year but were continue to meet genuine need. fully compliant for that period. 80,400 cases (9%) were wholly An equality impact assessment of these changes has non-compliant for the 12 month period. been published on the DWP website including details of Robust management information figures are not available to consultation undertaken: answer what proportion of cases paid more, or less than 50 per http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/impact-assessments/ cent. of the child maintenance due. equality-impact-assessments/ Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many parents resident in Disability Dartford constituency have used the Child Support Agency or the Child Maintenance Enforcement Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Commission to ensure child maintenance payments are and Pensions (1) what steps he plans to take to ensure enforced in each of the last five years. [44108] that assessors for the personal independence payment are trained in all aspects of disability; [45102] Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance (2) what steps he plans to take to ensure that the system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner assessment process for the personal independence to write to the hon. Member with the information payment takes account of the role of the advocate for requested and I have seen the response. people who have difficulties in communicating and Letter from Stephen Geraghty, dated 8 March 2011: undertaking questions, such as those with autism; [45103] In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive (3) what steps he plans to take to ensure that a reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child person with autism who undergoes an assessment for Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance the personal independence payment will have person- and Enforcement Commission. centred support when attending an assessment; [45104] You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how many parents resident in Dartford constituency have used the (4) what steps he plans to take to ensure that all Child Support Agency or the Child Maintenance Enforcement personal independence payment assessors will have the Commission to ensure child maintenance payments are enforced multi-disciplinary knowledge required to assess the in each of the last five years. [44108] needs of people with autism; [45105] 243W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 244W

(5) what consideration his Department is giving to Maria Miller: As was announced at publication of the needs of people with autism in developing the the Welfare Reform Bill on 17 February, the Government’s assessment procedures for the personal independence intention is to bring in any change to the mobility payment; [45106] component as part of the wider reform of disability (6) which experts involved in the working group living allowance (DLA). Consultation on wider reform developing the assessment process for the personal of DLA with the key proposal of a new benefit to be independence payment have a specialism in the known as personal independence payment concluded potential problems faced by individuals in on 18 February. The intention is that all working age communication and planning a journey, as set out in recipients of disability living allowance will be reassessed the consultant document; [45107] under the conditions of entitlement to personal independence payment from 2013 to establish whether (7) whether any specialists on autism are involved in they have entitlement to that payment. the group developing the assessment process for the personal independence payment. [45108] Levels of payment will focus on those who have faced the most challenges in living independent lives. We will Maria Miller: The assessment for personal independence consider other directly relevant state funded support payment is being designed in collaboration with an which is being made to ensure fairness. independent group of specialists in health, social care and disability. Its membership encompasses a wide variety of relevant expertise and reflects a broad range of Disability Living Allowance: Airdrie experience in the needs of disabled people. As well as representatives from RADAR and Equality 2025, the Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Work group includes individuals from professions such as and Pensions how many and what proportion of the occupational therapy, psychiatry, physiotherapy, social working age population of Airdrie and Shotts work, general practice and community psychiatric nursing. constituency is in receipt of disability living allowance. This approach ensures that the initial development work [44842] is being undertaken within a holistic view of the impact of disability. Maria Miller: The information is in the following The assessment development group is currently table: undertaking the early design work on the assessment Number and proportion of DLA recipients of working age in Airdrie criteria. Both I and departmental officials have met and Shotts constituency with the National Autistic Society to discuss our reform As at May 2010 proposals and to seek their views on how the new benefit can best support those with autism. Once the Number 4,010 broad principles are in place, we will work with the Proportion (%) 7.6 assessment group and disabled people and their Notes: organisations on the refinement and testing of the 1. Number of recipients is rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Proportions are to the nearest decimal place. detail of the criteria. We know it is essential that the 3. Figures do not include people with entitlement where the payment assessment accurately captures the needs of disabled has been suspended, for example if they are in hospital. people with autistic spectrum disorders and this is 4. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May something that the development group is already 2010. considering. We agree with many of the points raised in 5. Working age restricts the analysis to males aged 16 to 64 and females aged 16 to 59. the National Autistic Society’s recent report on DLA 6. Data is published at: reform, “Who benefits?”, and we are looking closely at https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/Default.asp how these recommendations can be incorporated into 7. Population estimates are published at: its design. http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/files2/stats/population-estimates/ wpc-pop-est-2001-2009.xls We are still considering the delivery model for the Source: personal independence payment assessment and no DWP Information Directorate 100%WPLS decisions have yet been taken. We recognise the importance of providing adequate training and guidance for assessors and of ensuring that the assessment process is appropriate Disability Living Allowance: Children to individual’s circumstances, including individuals with autistic spectrum disorders. To ensure that we get this Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and reform right, we will continue to work with disabled Pensions how many children with disabilities educated people and their organisations as the detail of the in special schools are in receipt of the mobility assessment criteria and its operation is developed and component of disability living allowance at the (a) tested. lower and (b) higher rate. [43697]

Disability Living Allowance Maria Miller: The information requested is not available as the number of non residential pupils in special schools Bob Blackman: To ask the Secretary of State for is not recorded. This is because it is residence rather Work and Pensions what his policy is on the provision than type of school that affects payment of disability of mobility allowance for (a) those in hospital, (b) living allowance. those moved to a residential home and (c) students; There are 2,000 children in residential care (which and what account he has taken of the degrees of includes children in residential special schools) of which mobility and levels of requirement in each situation in 1,200 are in receipt of the lower rate mobility component formulating his policy. [41478] and 800 are in receipt of the higher rate component. 245W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 246W

Disability Living Allowance: Wolverhampton Incapacity Benefits

Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Work and Pensions how many people in and Pensions what the (a) minimum and (b) Wolverhampton North East constituency receive the maximum period will be between an individual higher rate mobility component of disability living receiving notification of their incapacity benefit allowance. [44668] reassessment and the date of their initial reassessment. [45023] Maria Miller: The information is contained in the Chris Grayling: The length of time it will take for a following table: customer to have their incapacity benefits reassessed is Disability living allowance recipients with higher rate mobility component May dependent upon a range of factors. Among other things, 2010 this includes the speed with which the customer returns Number their medical questionnaire and whether the customer Wolverhampton North East 3,250 needs to attend a face to face assessment. On average parliamentary constituency this would normally take around 13 weeks but this may Notes: be quicker if a face to face assessment is not required. 1. Caseload figures are rounded to the nearest ten. 2. Data is for the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for example if Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work they are in hospital. and Pensions what procedures are in place for 3. Constituencies used are for the Westminster Parliament of May 2010. 4. These figures are published at: incapacity benefit clients who wish to make a http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html complaint about their reassessment. [45024] Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 100% WPLS Chris Grayling: Jobcentre Plus work in partnership Employment and Support Allowance with Atos Healthcare the Department’s medical services provider, to delivery of the Incapacity Benefit Reassessment Programme. Jon Cruddas: To ask the Secretary of State for Work A customer can raise a complaint about their and Pensions if he will bring forward proposals to reassessment through Jobcentre Plus or, where it refers change employment and support allowance to take to their medical examination, direct with Atos Healthcare, greater account of the need for support relating to where the customer’s complaint is investigated by Atos health treatment. [38727] under their complaints process. If the customer is still dissatisfied with the outcome, having exhausted the Maria Miller: Anyone claiming ESA will undergo the Atos complaints process, they may escalate their complaint work capability assessment (WCA). The WCA is based to the Jobcentre Plus Chief Executive, who will undertake on the premise that eligibility should be based on the a further investigation. If the customer is not satisfied way a condition limits functional capability. with the outcome, they can approach the Independent Where an individual is undergoing treatment for a Case Examiner if their complaint concerns departmental health condition or disability, the WCA will take full maladministration. account of the effects that the treatment has on the If the complaint refers to action taken by Jobcentre individual’s functional capability as part of the assessment Plus, Jobcentre Plus’ own complaint process applies, of eligibility for ESA. which culminates in a response from the Chief Executive. If the customer remains dissatisfied, they may also Employment and Support Allowance: Airdrie escalate their complaint to the Independent Case Examiner. Industrial Health and Safety: Prosecutions Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Airdrie and Shotts Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work constituency have been in receipt of employment and and Pensions if he will assess the effect on the number support allowance payments for more than one year. of prosecutions for health and safety offences of [44784] reductions in the budget of the Health and Safety Executive. [45511] Maria Miller: The information requested is given as follows: Chris Grayling: I do not expect there to be any Employment and support allowance in Airdrie and Shotts parliamentary significant effect on the number of prosecutions for constituency May 2010 health and safety offences because of reductions in the Number budget of the Health and Safety Executive (HSE). Total claimants 210 Almost all of the prosecutions for health and safety Duration of over one year 1,250 offences arise from the investigation of accidents, incidents Notes: and complaints. HSE has no plans to reduce the resources 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. available for such investigations. 2. Employment and support allowance (ESA) replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new claims from 27 International Labour Organisation October 2008. 3. This data was extracted from the Department’s Tabulation tool at: http://83.244.183.180/5pc/tabtool.html Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for 4. Data includes those receiving “credits only”. Source: Work and Pensions how much funding his Department Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 100% WPLS provided to the International Labour Organisation in 247W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 248W each of the last four years; and how much funding he reassessments in areas where a backlog of appeals exists. This is expects to provide in (a) 2011-12, (b) 2012-13, (c) something that falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as 2013-14 and (d) 2014-15. [45588] Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. In total around 1100 Jobcentre Plus staff will be allocated to Chris Grayling: Figures for past years are in the Incapacity Benefit reassessment. These staff will be split across following table (rounded to the nearest thousand). the Jobcentres, Contact Centres and Benefit Centres to deliver the end to end reassessment process. Of these staff, 150 will be Department for Work and Pensions funding to the International Labour allocated to appeals work, namely the preparation and referral of Organisation, 2007-10 appeals to the Tribunal Service. Assessed contributions to Payments to the UN/ILO/ These staffing and resource allocations are in line with anticipated the ILO regular budget (£ World Bank Youth Calendar year million) Employment Network (£) numbers of appeals arising from the reassessment of Incapacity Benefit. 2007 9.359 50,000 Resources will be made available separately for the Tribunal 2008 13.295 100,000 Service to process Incapacity Benefit reassessment appeals. 2009 15.481 — 2010 16.218 — Jobseeker’s Allowance: Cancer The UK’s assessed contribution for calendar year 2011 is around £16.5 million. The final figure my Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Department will pay in sterling depends on currency Pensions how many cancer patients were found (a) still exchange rates as the contribution is paid in Swiss to have limited capability for work-related activity and francs. retained in the support group, (b) to have limited capability for work and placed in the work-related The UK’s subscription for future years has not yet activity group and (c) to be fit for work and placed on been determined and will depend on a number of variables jobseeker’s allowance following reassessment in each of including the ILO’s biennial budget proposal, any return the last four years. [45523] of ILO budget surpluses and refunds under the ILO’s early payment scheme, and currency exchange rates. Chris Grayling: The information requested is shown in the following table: Jobcentre Plus: Incapacity Benefits Assessment Work related Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work quarter Support group activity group Fit for work and Pensions what order of precedence Jobcentre Plus 2008 has set for rolling out its incapacity benefits November 40 0 0 reassessment programme. [45018]

2009 Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, February 880 140 70 Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. May 1,770 350 360 Member with the information requested. August 2,390 520 700 November 2,690 580 670 Letter from Darra Singh: The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has asked me to 2010 reply to your question asking what order of precedence Jobcentre Plus has set for rolling out its Incapacity Benefits reassessment February 2,520 590 600 programme. This is something that falls within the responsibilities May 2,660 640 590 delegated to me as Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. August 2,870 740 710 Customers receiving Incapacity Benefit and Income Support Total 15,830 3,570 3,690 paid on the grounds of illness or disability, currently attend Personal Capability Assessments (PCA) to determine and review This represents the DWP decision at initial assessment their entitlement for benefit. The order in which customers will be by the quarter in which the assessment was completed selected for IB(IS)reassessment will be based upon the date on up to the end of August 2010. Repeat assessments and which they would otherwise have been called for their next PCA. clerical assessments where the result cannot be determined Customers currently claiming Severe Disablement Allowance will from DWP benefits data are excluded from these figures. be reassessed at the end of the reassessment process. The numbers are rounded to the nearest 10. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work The cases have been selected where the primary condition and Pensions whether additional (a) staffing and (b) of the person claiming is cancer. For most claimants resources will be provided to Jobcentre Plus to this information is predominantly taken from the undertake incapacity benefit reassessments in areas information recorded on the medical certificate provided where a backlog of appeals exists. [45022] by the GP when someone first makes a claim for employment and support allowance (ESA). It is based Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus on the primary condition of the person claiming and is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, represents what their GP considers to be the main Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. reason the person cannot work at that time. Member with the information requested. In 2010, this information was transferred to central Letter from Darra Singh: administrative databases for all claims still live in November The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question 2009 and new claims thereafter. For some claims that about whether additional (a) staffing and (b) resources will be closed before November 2009 we have used other sources provided to Jobcentre Plus to undertake Incapacity Benefit to determine medical condition such as that recorded at 249W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 250W the WCA or that recorded by Jobcentre Plus at first April 2008, either held directly with Government contact. However, in some cases the information is Departments (including bodies that they sponsor including missing, particularly for ESA claims that closed before non-departmental public bodies) and local authorities November 2009. and also contracts held with third parties on behalf of The information presented is consistent with the public bodies. information in Table 2 in the report ‘Employment and 1. Remploy Enterprise Businesses Support Allowance: Work Capability Assessment by (a) Contracts with Government Departments Health Condition and Functional Impairment: Official Total value of Statistics: January 2011’, a copy of which can be found contracts April Number of 2008 to March at: Government Department contracts 2011 (£000) http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ esa_wca_25012011.pdf Department for Business, Innovation 1 252 and Skills Motability Department for Culture Media and 118 Sport Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Department for Education 1 43,535 and Pensions what plans he has for the future of the Department for Work and Pensions 2 6,669 Motability scheme following introduction of the Department of Health (201 orders 1 6,100 personal independence payment. [44819] with hospitals and health authorities) Department of Transport 1 10 Maria Miller: While this Department works closely Foreign Office 1 150 with Motability and facilitates the operation of the HM Treasury 1 29 scheme, Motability it is an independent charity and Home Office (69 orders with police 1 20,227 DWP Ministers are not directly involved in determining forces and authorities) scheme policy. Ministry of Defence 1 5,982 As stated in the recent consultation document on Ministry of Justice 1 989 Disability Living Allowance Reform, we will work with Scottish Government 1 23 Motability under the reformed system of personal Welsh Government 1 110 independence payment. Total 14 84,094 Personal Independence Payment (b) Contracts with local authorities Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Total value of State for Work and Pensions for what reason he has contracts April proposed that six months must elapse before a person Number of 2008 to March Local council contracts 2011 (£000) can claim the personal independence payment; and if he will make a statement. [46370] Angell Town, Hertfordshire and 1 337 Loughborough CCTV Maria Miller [holding answer 14 March 2011]: We Clydebank CCTV 1 366 propose that in order to qualify for personal independence Cotswold District Council 1 33 payment, the individual must have met the conditions Corby Borough Council 1 365 of entitlement to a specific rate of the daily living or East Staffordshire Borough Council 1 455 mobility component during the six months preceding Eastleigh Borough Council 1 476 the date they become entitled. This is intended to distinguish Great Yarmouth Borough Council 1 274 between a long-term impairment or health condition—for Industrial Estate Partnership Business 1 483 Improvement District (including which financial support through this benefit may be Bolton MBC) appropriate—and shorter term conditions where other Kirklees Council 1 18 support mechanisms exist. Newark and Sherwood District 1 396 The first six months of a disability may well attract Council additional costs but those may be met through other South Staffordshire District Council 1 263 mechanisms such as healthcare travel costs, free prescriptions Total 11 3,466 or aids and adaptations provided by the NHS or the 2. Remploy Employment Services local authority. Individuals may also be entitled to a (a) Government departments range of social security benefits depending on their Total value of circumstances during this period. contracts April Number of 2008 to March Remploy Government Department contracts 2011 (£000)

Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Department for Work and Pensions 4 20,285 and Pensions how many public procurement contracts ESEP Ltd. on behalf of Scottish 2 863 with each (a) Government department and (b) local Government authority have been awarded to Remploy since 2008; Government Office for the North West 1 34 and what the monetary value was of such contracts. Learning and Skills Council 14 842 [41414] Ministry of Justice—Yorkshire and 1 376 Humberside Maria Miller: Remploy Enterprise Businesses and National Offender Management Service 18 Leicestershire Rutland Probation Trust Employment Services have a large number of contracts Skills Funding Agency 1 560 with a wide range of public bodies. The following tables Welsh European Funding Office 3 24,410 provide details of contracts awarded to Remploy’s Total 27 47,378 Enterprise Businesses and Employment Services since 251W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 252W

Maria Miller: Remploy, as a non-departmental public (b) Local authorities body must live within the HM Treasury guidance on Total value of contracts April pay that is issued annually. Contractual arrangements Number of 2008 to March between Remploy and individual staff, including the Local council contracts 2011 (£000) level of staff remuneration, are a matter for the company Barking and Dagenham Council 2 59 to decide. Birmingham City Council 2 91 This Government believe all Departments, including Coventry City Council 2 264 non-departmental public bodies, have to show pay restraint Cumbria County Council 2 49 in the current economic climate. The approach to pay Derby Council 1 79 and bonuses for the current and previous years was Dorset County Council 1 13 negotiated by the previous Administration. East Durham Council 1 45 The 2010-11 pay remit will be agreed shortly. We have East Riding of Yorkshire Council 1 179 recently agreed that the company can discuss a pay Five Host Boroughs—London 1 31 increase of £250 for staff earning less than £21,000 with Huddersfield Council 1 270 Trade Union representatives. This is in line with the Leicester City Council 2 113 current Treasury guidelines and payments are expected Liverpool City Council 5 220 to be made shortly. London Borough of Hounslow 123 Council The Treasury guidance for 2011-12 has recently been London Borough of Tower Hamlets 13issued to Departments. We are working with Remploy Council to ensure that appropriate pay restraint is applied in London Councils 1 3 2011-12 and for future years. Manchester City Council 1 1 Newcastle City Council 1 42 North Lanarkshire Council 1 231 Social Security Benefits Renfrewshire Council 2 69 Salford Council 1 426 Sheffield City Council 4 431 Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work South Lanarkshire Council 1 555 and Pensions what steps he is taking to encourage the Stoke on Trent City Council 1 2 take-up of benefits that are unclaimed by pensioners. Sunderland City Council 1 93 [45050] Wirral Council 2 688 Total 39 3,980 Steve Webb: We want to ensure that older people Notes: receive the help they are entitled to. The Pension, Disability 1. All tables cover the period April 2008 to March 2011. The contract value represents the sales value derived within the period covered (with estimates for and Carers Service (PDCS) works closely with local the last two months of this financial year) and not the full total contract value. organisations to encourage and support people to take 2. The tables include the public body that contract is now held with if the up the benefits they are entitled to. public body has changed through machinery of Government changes. 3. The tables include public bodies that no longer exist if the contract has been They also target activity on engaging with people completed, for example, Learning and Skills Council. who may be eligible to encourage them to claim. For Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Work example, when a customer makes a claim to state pension and Pensions how many contracts Remploy have been or reports a change in their circumstances, a customer awarded since 2008; what the monetary value of such adviser will discuss a pension credit application with contracts was; and what proportion of those contracts those who may be entitled. was subsequently passed to private companies. [41416] In addition, we have developed a free pension credit ‘toolkit’ providing information guides and templates for Maria Miller: The information requested is provided people who work with vulnerable pensioners to encourage in the following table. Remploy Enterprise Businesses them to promote pension credit. and Employment Services have a large number of contracts We are conducting a modest research study to help with a wide range of organisations which support delivery build the evidence base on how the information that we of increasing the number of disabled people into work. routinely collect can be used more effectively to ensure pensioners get the help that is available through pension Total value of Proportion sub- credit. This study is a first step in seeing if this type of contracts April 2008 contracted to Remploy area Number of to March 2011 third parties approach might be possible in the longer term. of business contracts (£000) (percentage)

Employment 82 55,127 33 Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Services Work and Pensions how many (a) women and (b) Enterprise 127 348,892 2 men were in receipt of (i) disability living allowance, (ii) Businesses income support and (iii) jobseeker’s allowance on the Note: The total contract value represents the sales value derived within the period most recent date for which figures are available. [46680] covered (with estimates for the last two months of this financial year) and not the full total contract value. Maria Miller: The information is in the following Remploy: Pay tables. Total DLA and IS claimants, May 2010 Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Benefit Total Female Male and Pensions if he will assess the merits of awarding a pay increase to employees of Remploy. [44517] DLA 3,157,310 1,576,530 1,580,780 253W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 254W

Total DLA and IS claimants, May 2010 language and etiquette including working with customers Benefit Total Female Male with mental ill health, autistic spectrum conditions and IS 1,852,270 1,214,600 637,670 learning disabilities. Notes: Jobcentre Plus has also put in place a mental health 1. DLA and IS case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10, JSA case loads co-ordinator in each district. Their role is to: improve are rounded to the nearest 100. 2. DLA totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and and facilitate links between local mental health and excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for employment services; identify the availability of local example, if they are in hospital. support that advisers may signpost customers to; provide 3. DLA and IS figures are published at: http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html a support role to advisers who are working with customers 4. JSA figures are published at: with mental health conditions, or learning difficulties; http://www.nomisweb.co.uk and influence local partners to consider whether the Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate, 100% WPLS. help currently available for those with mental health conditions or learning difficulties satisfies local needs Total JSA claimants, January 2011 and encourage them to address any gaps or shortfall in Benefit Total Female Male provision. JSA 1,400,600 433,800 966,800 Pension, Disability and Carers Service (PDCS) have Notes: specific learning provided by the Professionalism in 1. DLA and IS case load figures are rounded to the nearest 10, JSA case loads Decision Making and Appeals (PIDMA) body. The are rounded to the nearest 100. 2. DLA totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and course is Understanding Working Age and Child Customers excludes people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended, for which has a section on understanding the impact of a example, if they are in hospital. learning disability specifically covering autistic spectrum 3. DLA and IS figures are published at: http://83.244.183.180/100pc/tabtool.html disorders. This course is for all appropriate disability 4. JSA figures are published at: living allowance and attendance allowance decision-making http://www.nomisweb.co.uk staff. Source: Seasonally adjusted count of unemployment-related benefits, Jobcentre Plus The above learning is being modified and updated to computer systems. reflect the newly widened responsibilities of the Local Service Customer Liaison Managers (CLMs) to deal Social Security Benefits: Autism with visits, where required, to all of the Department’s “vulnerable client groups”. The new course is intended Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for to build on that by providing learning more specifically Work and Pensions what steps his Department takes to tailored to visiting officers and as part of whole suite on ensure that officials assessing entitlement to benefits new learning products for local service to be delivered are appropriately trained in (a) understanding and (b) from late autumn 2011 onwards. communicating with people with autism. [44620] Since February 2010, DWP formed a National Hidden Impairment strategy group involving medical professionals Maria Miller: The Department of Work and Pensions and experts in the fields of hidden impairments; disability (DWP) policy is to develop its staff who have a wide specific organisations such as the National Autistic variety of different roles in the skills required to support Society; Autism Plus and Addept; and involving service a range of customers and to respect their individual users with autistic spectrum disorder (ASD) conditions. needs, including those related to their health conditions. The purpose of the group is to improve the customer This approach ensures that they are equipped to deal service experience for individuals with these conditions. with a diverse set of circumstances whilst treating customers The group is currently producing a further series of as individuals. For this reason, there is no single set of guidance in the form of checklists to ensure that staff procedures to be followed which solely focus on feel confident in their ability to anticipate appropriate understanding and communicating with people with reasonable adjustment solutions at relevant stages of autism. the customer journey. These checklists have been written The learning programme for Jobcentre Plus focuses by medical experts and will be available by the end of on raising awareness of the customer’s personal March 2011. circumstances and also recognises that disabilities and health conditions can affect individuals in different John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work ways and will change over time. Guidance is also available and Pensions (1) what steps the Government plans to for Jobcentre Plus staff which includes background take to consider the needs of people with autism when information on a number of conditions relating to designing the assessment procedure for the proposed hidden impairments such as: autistic spectrum conditions personal independence payment; [45948] including asperger’s syndrome; attention deficit hyperactivity (2) if he will ensure that all personal independence disorder; dyslexia and speech and language difficulties. payment assessors have the requisite multi-disciplinary Furthermore, Jobcentre Plus run a seminar to support knowledge to assess the needs of people with autism. staff better understand the implications of current [45949] disability/diversity legislation in relation to their job roles when working with disabled customers, colleagues Maria Miller: The assessment is being developed in and employers. The ‘Raising the Game on Disability’ collaboration with an independent group of specialists seminar aims to dispel the many myths and misconceptions in health, social care and disability, including disabled around the disability agenda in a safe and supportive people. This group is currently undertaking the early environment as staff are encouraged to ask questions design work on the assessment criteria. Once the broad and share their personal experiences of disability. Part principles are in place, we will work with the assessment of the seminar includes a discussion about communication, group and disabled people and their organisations on 255W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 256W the refinement and testing of the detail of the criteria. Further changes are also being made to the information We know it is essential that it accurately captures the on Directgov with good results to date. Customer needs of disabled people with autistic spectrum disorders satisfaction is up by over 10 percentage points since the and this is something that the development group is project started. considering. State pension online provides customers living in the We are still considering the most appropriate delivery UK, who wish to use the internet, with a swift and model for the personal independence payment assessment convenient way of claiming their state pension via and no decisions have yet been taken. We recognise the Directgov. Where possible the service will present them importance of providing adequate training and guidance with their state pension award details in real time. This for assessors and of ensuring that the assessment process service is available 24 hours a day. Customers who do is appropriate to individual’s circumstances, including not wish to complete their claim in one go are able to individuals with autistic spectrum disorders. Both I and save their claim and return to complete it later. departmental officials have met with the National Autistic Additionally, later this year, the majority of Jobcentre Society to discuss our reform proposals and to seek Plus customers who are eligible for the state pension their views on how the new benefit can best support will automatically transfer from working age benefits to those with autism. We agree with many of the points their state pension without the need for a claim. This raised in the National Autistic Society’s recent report service will reuse information already held about them on DLA reform “Who benefits?” and we are looking by DWP and will provide a much more effective customer closely at how these recommendations can be incorporated service to approximately 200,000 people every year. into its design. We are keen to continue to work with disabled people and their organisations as the detail of Social Security Benefits: Public Expenditure the assessment criteria and its operation is developed and tested. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations Pensions what his most recent estimate is of the likely savings to the public purse of the proposed cap on the Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work annual level of benefits payments per household over and Pensions whether any bonuses were paid to private the comprehensive spending review period. [44007] companies engaged as part of the operation of the trial of the reassessments for customers receiving incapacity Chris Grayling: The spending review 2010 announced benefit and income support in north east Scotland. that household benefit payments would be capped from [37627] 2013 at around £500 per week for couple and lone parent households and around £350 per week for single Maria Miller: No bonuses have been paid to any adult households. War widows, households which include private companies involved in the trial nor are there any a member who is receiving disability living allowance or plans to do so. Atos Healthcare, who were awarded the constant attendance allowance, and working households Department’s medical services contract under the previous claiming the working tax credit will be exempt from the Administration, will continue to be funded under the cap. existing contractual agreement to deliver the medical If the benefit cap were applied in full, as described in services in the trial areas. the supporting documentation for the spending review Social Security Benefits: Older People 2010 the savings to the Exchequer are estimated to be £225 million in 2013-14 and £270 million in 2014-15. Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work We are looking at ways of easing the transition for and Pensions what steps he is taking to simplify the families and providing assistance in hard cases. benefits claims process for pensioners. [45052] State Retirement Pensions Steve Webb: The claims process has already been simplified and pensioners can claim housing benefit Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for and council tax benefit, alongside pension credit, in a Work and Pensions (1) what methodology his single phone call without the need for a signed claim Department uses to determine the level of contracted- form. Calls to the 0800 claims number from a BT out deductions from the state second pension; [45439] landline or from the six largest mobile phone networks (2) for what reason the level of contracted-out are free. deductions from the State Second Pension of people Work is ongoing to improve the state pension “Invitation whose occupational pension has not increased is to Claim” pack. This includes introducing a better increased annually. [45615] structure to make it easier to use, simplifying the content and adding a tier of signposting to Directgov, pension Steve Webb: The additional state pension payable to leaflets and relevant partner organisations to help customers a person contracted out of the state earnings-related find any further information they may need. An interim pension scheme (SERPS) through a defined benefit (or solution was delivered in November 2010 and further salary-related) occupational pension scheme between changes are planned from August 2011. 1978 and 1997 is reduced by a contracted-out deduction In addition, a number of significant improvements (COD) equal to the level of the guaranteed minimum are planned for pension credit new claim, changes and pension (GMP), payable by the scheme at 60 for women annual uprating letters. These are currently under and 65 for men (subject to the total deduction not being development and are expected to be in use by May greater than the individual’s notional additional state 2011. pension accrued between 1978 and 1997). 257W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 258W

Each GMP is calculated in a broadly similar way to Mr Tyrie: In the 2009-10 financial year, the full cost the additional state pension but based on earnings on to the National Audit Office of supporting the work of which contracted-out national insurance contributions the Environmental Audit Committee was £283,000. were paid. A person who contracted out of SERPS under a defined contribution (or money purchase) arrangement COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT from 1988 onwards does not accrue a GMP as scheme benefits are dependent on investment returns and annuity Anti-Semitism rates. The additional state pension paid to such a person is reduced by an amount equivalent to the GMP that Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for would have accrued had he or she been contracted out Communities and Local Government if he will through a defined benefit scheme, although the actual undertake a survey to ascertain the prevalence of pension paid may be higher or lower than the contracted-out anti-Semitism in each (a) age group, (b) socio- deduction. However, calculating the COD in this way economic group and (c) region; and if he will make a ensures that people are treated in the same way, regardless statement. [45602] of how they were contracted out. Andrew Stunell: We have no plans to undertake a GMPs, and therefore contracted-out deductions, accrued survey to ascertain the prevalence of anti-Semitism, as from 1988 onwards receive limited price indexation and we believe this is not necessarily the best way to measure so increase in most years. However, pensions or annuities anti-Semitism. We do record anti-Semitic crime at the bought from defined contribution contracted-out schemes national level which is broken down by police force since April 2006 do not have to provide for any indexation. area. These figures were published in November 2010. Individuals can choose to buy a flat-rate annuity which Full details can be found at: will have a higher starting payment than an escalating http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/ annuity but not increase over time. This means that in 084a_Recorded_Hate_Crime_- these cases it would be possible for the COD to increase _January_to_December_2009.pdf while the occupational pension remains the same. Community Development State Retirement Pensions: Livingston Martin Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when he plans to Work and Pensions how many women in Livingston initiate consultation on the introduction of regulations constituency will be affected by his proposals to raise contemplated under the Sustainable Communities the state pension age for women. [45647] Act 2007. [46197] Steve Webb: This information is not available. Greg Clark: The Government will shortly publish a consultation seeking views on the contents of new On the basis of the mid-2009 GRO for Scotland regulations to be made under the Sustainable Communities population estimates, we estimate that around eight Act 2007, and will make a statement in due course. thousand and two hundred women in the West Lothian local authority area could be affected by the proposals Community Relations: English Language to rise the state pension age. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Programme Contracts Communities and Local Government what steps his Department is taking to promote the use of the English Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for language in the UK for the purposes of community Work and Pensions on what date he expects to cohesion; and how much funding he allocated to this announce the successful work programme bidders for objective in the latest period for which figures are each contract package area. [45133] available. [46134] Chris Grayling: This has been a very successful Andrew Stunell [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The competition and we have received 177 bids. Government recognise the role of good English language The announcement of ‘preferred bidders’ will take skills in enabling speakers of other languages to contribute place in the first part of April 2011: both successful and to the economy and play a full part in society. unsuccessful bidders will be notified and results will be On 29 November the Secretary of State for the Home posted on DWP website. In addition, results will also be Department, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead made available on ‘The Contracts Finder’ website which (Mrs May), introduced a new language requirement for builds on the Department’s commitment to transparency. those seeking entry to the UK as either a spouse or civil partner, fiancé or proposed civil partner, unmarried partner or same sex partner of a British citizen or PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION someone who is present and settled in the UK. Pre entry language requirements are also in place for migrants Environmental Audit Select Committee seeking visas for work or study purposes via the points based system. Migrants applying for settlement or Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Chairman of the Public citizenship are required to demonstrate knowledge of Accounts Commission how much National Audit English language and life in the UK. Office resource was made available to support the work In 2008-09—the most recent data available—£225 million of the Environmental Audit Committee in the latest was spent by further education institutions on English period for which figures are available. [45245] as a Second Language (ESOL). From August 259W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 260W

2011, full Government funding will be provided for Local authorities also have powers to assess the risks ESOL to unemployed people in receipt of jobseeker’s and hazards in privately rented properties using the allowance or in the employment and support allowance housing health and safety rating system. If a property is (Work-Related Activity) Group, where English language found to contain serious hazards, the local authority skills have been identified as a barrier to entering has a duty to take the most appropriate action. This employment. We will also continue to pay 50% of system provides an important safety net, ensuring that ESOL course fees for people who are settled here. We homes are safe. will no longer fund ESOL courses delivered in the The Department does not hold information on the workplace. use of these powers centrally. The Government recently announced that over £7 million in match funding is available through the European Town Centres refugee fund 2010 and European integration fund 2010. Projects for teaching English language are eligible for Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of both funds. State for Communities and Local Government what In schools, newly arrived pupils are usually given recent steps he has taken to promote (a) the additional help in learning English by specialist teachers regeneration of town centres and (b) high street shops; or by bilingual classroom assistants. Since 1999, the and if he will make a statement. [46500] Department for Education has made available an Ethnic Minority Achievement Grant (EMAG) to help narrow Greg Clark [holding answer 14 March 2011]: The achievement gaps for black and minority ethnic pupils Government are fully committed to supporting town and cover some of the costs of additional support centres. Town centres are at the heart of our communities needed for bilingual learners. In 2010-11 just under and neighbourhoods and have an important role to play £207 million was paid to local authorities through the in the growth of local economies. Through our new EMAG. approach to planning and regeneration we will provide residents and local authorities with local rewards and incentives to enable them to drive regeneration and Jewish Community growth that is right for their needs. We are giving new powers and rights for local councils Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for and communities to determine and influence what happens Communities and Local Government what in their area, for example, through neighbourhood planning, information his Department holds on the number of local enterprise partnerships, the power of competence (a) synagogues and (b) Jewish cemeteries in each local and community right to buy. We are increasing local authority area that have been desecrated in each of the control of public finance by de-ring fencing and enabling last 10 years for which figures are available; what recent local pooling of budgets. We are offering powerful discussions he has had with representatives of the incentives for housing and business growth, through the Jewish community on this issue; and if he will make a new homes bonus and changes to the community statement. [45604] infrastructure levy and we are considering options to enable councils to retain locally-raised business rates Andrew Stunell: The Department for Communities and to grant business rate discounts if they wish. and Local Government does not hold any information as to the number of synagogues and Jewish cemeteries The “town centre first” policy will continue to be desecrated in each local authority. However, data are strongly expressed in national planning policy currently available in the three police force areas which have the under review through the National Planning Policy largest Jewish communities. These data would classify Framework. The Government’s firm intention in reviewing the desecration of Jewish cemeteries and synagogues as the policy is to make it more accessible and clearer. We criminal damage. Whenever a critical incident occurs will publish, and present to Parliament, the National related to either desecration of Jewish cemeteries or Planning Policy Framework by April 2012. synagogues, the National Community Tension Team ensures that they link in with the Community Security Trust to reassure the Jewish community and ensure that TREASURY each incident is investigated. Aggregates Levy: Northern Ireland Private Rented Housing Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for what sites subject to the aggregates levy are registered Communities and Local Government what powers in Northern Ireland. [46877] local authorities have in relation to the management of private rented housing; and what information his Justine Greening: Of approximately 680 registrations Department holds on the use of such powers. [46519] for the aggregates levy in the UK, around 150 operators are registered as having their principal place of business Andrew Stunell: Local authorities have extensive powers in Northern Ireland. Some operators registered elsewhere under the Housing Act 2004 to help improve the in the UK may also have sites in Northern Ireland. management of privately rented properties. They are under a statutory duty to licence certain high risk Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer privately rented houses in multiple occupation. They which sites subject to the aggregates levy in Northern also have discretionary powers to extend licensing to Ireland claimed relief for the extraction of shale other types of privately rented property. material in each of the last four years; what 261W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 262W confirmation has been sought from such sites that shale Mr Gauke [holding answer 14 March 2011]: We do is being extracted; what estimate he has made of the not hold figures for HMRC’s administration costs in number of false claims made by aggregate companies respect of looked after children living in Scotland. But with respect to shale extraction in the latest period for HMRC’s overall administration costs are published in which figures are available; and what estimate he has the annual CTF statistics at: made of the volume of shale involved in such false http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ctf/stats.htm claims. [46878] Scottish local authorities and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) incur administration costs in setting up and Justine Greening: In order to minimise the reporting making payments into CTF accounts for looked after burdens on business, registered persons supplying materials children living in Scotland. Also, where there is no one that are exempt under the aggregates levy are not required with parental responsibility for the child, the account is to identify the nature of the material on returns. Data managed by the Accountant of Court in Scotland and on which operators have claimed exemption on shale their administration costs reimbursed by HMRC. The are therefore unavailable. Accountant of Court was reimbursed (net of VAT) Registered operators are subject to risk-based assurance £18,411 for 2008-09 and £18,882 for 2009-10 by HMRC. activity, and HMRC act on intelligence received, visiting The figure for 2010-11 is not yet available. registered persons and making scientific referrals as In addition, local authorities have received funding appropriate. from central Government of £22 per payment towards In the past four years the visit programme to quarries the cost of identifying and making payments of £100 to in Northern Ireland has resulted in nine scientific referrals the CTFs of every looked after child. of material described as shale, five of which resulted in assessments for additional levy due. The combined volume Departmental Internet involved was around 480,000 tons. Tessa Jowell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Air Force: Military Bases what the cost to the public purse was of the Spending Review Challenge. [46427] Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what meetings the Chief Secretary to the Danny Alexander: The Government committed to Treasury has had with (a) Ministers and (b) officials ensuring the spending review process was open, of the Ministry of Defence in respect of that responsible and fair and to engaging the whole public in Department’s RAF basing review. [46213] the difficult decisions that had to be taken. The Spending Challenge was an important part of this, attracting over Danny Alexander: I have regular conversations with 100,000 suggestions from public sector workers and the Secretary of State for Defence on a wide range of members of the public on how Government can do issues. more with less. The cost of establishing and operating the Spending Child Tax Credit Challenge website was £19,300. Related staff and process costs were met using existing resources and from existing Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer budgets. what estimate he has made of the number of families (a) in total, (b) in each nation and region and (c) in Fiscal Policy each constituency who will be affected by the proposed reduction in childcare costs paid through the childcare Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Chancellor of the element of working tax credit. [46051] Exchequer what fiscal steps he is taking to incentivise (a) research and development and (b) innovation. Mr Gauke: No estimate has been made. [46040] The reduction of child care support to 70% from 80% is part of a range of reforms to the tax credits system Mr Gauke: The Government incentivise investment announced at the spending review. There are interactions in R and D activity through the R and D tax credit between the measures so estimating the impact of just schemes. The schemes provided an estimated £980 million one measure does not give a clear indication of the full of support for innovative UK companies in 2008-09. impact on households. The Government are introducing a reduced tax rate The Government published estimates of the distributional for profits from patents, known as the Patent Box, impact of the whole package of announced tax and which will reward successful innovation in patented benefit measures which can be found at: technology and encourage innovative companies to invest http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/sr2010_annexb.pdf in the UK.

Child Trust Fund: Children in Care Income Tax: Northern Ireland

Ann McKechin: To ask the Chancellor of the Lady Hermon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much was spent in administration costs Exchequer how many people in (a) Northern Ireland to assess for the purposes of the Child Trust Fund the and (b) North Down constituency were affected by the needs of children in care living in Scotland in (a) introduction of the 50 per cent. rate of income tax in 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11. [46312] April 2010. [46781] 263W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 264W

Mr Gauke: The number of people in Northern Ireland Tax year Number issued liable to income tax at the 50% additional rate in 2010-11 is published, along with estimates for other UK 2003-04 16,000 Government Office Regions, on the HMRC website in 2004-05 6,000 table 2.2 which is available at the following address: 2005-06 23,000 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-2.pdf 2006-07 20,000 Estimates are based on the 2007-08 Survey of Personal 2007-08 17,000 Incomes, projected using economic assumptions consistent 2008-09 17,000 with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Autumn 2009-10 13,000 Forecast 2010. Reliable estimates are not available at the parliamentary Stamp Duty Land Tax constituency level, due to small survey sample sizes and significant uncertainties in projections for small geographical Mr Ruffley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer areas. how many properties sold in (a) Bury St Edmunds constituency and (b) Suffolk county council area Licensing: Electronic Government attracted stamp duty land tax levied at (i) zero per cent., (ii) one per cent., (iii) three per cent. and (iv) four Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Chancellor of the per cent. in each of the last three years. [45841] Exchequer how many premises licence applications have been made through the Business Link website to Justine Greening: Estimates of the number of property date; and how many such applications Business Link transactions for Bury St Edmunds parliamentary has forwarded to local authorities. [46450] constituency and Suffolk county are given in the following table, grouped by stamp duty land tax band. Mr Gauke: 267 premises licence applications have Property transactions attracting rate based entirely on consideration been made to date using the application forms on the 1 2 3 4 businesslink.gov.uk website. All such applications have 0% rate 1% rate 3% rate 4% rate Total been forwarded to the relevant local authority. Bury St Edmunds Maternity Payments 2007-08 890 2,400 780 160 4,220 2008-09 650 1,060 300 80 2,090 2009-10 770 1,500 340 80 2,700 Yvette Cooper: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many women were in receipt of (a) Health in Pregnancy Grant and (b) Sure Start Suffolk Maternity Grant on the most recent date for which 2007-08 5,400 10,400 3,300 880 20,000 figures are available. [46509] 2008-09 5,800 3,800 1,600 510 11,700 2009-10 5,000 6,700 1,900 460 14,100 Mr Gauke: Information on the number of women in 1 Residential threshold is £125,000 in all years, non-residential threshold is £150,000 in all years. The temporary increase in the residential threshold from receipt of the health in pregnancy grant is only available £125,000 to £175,000 between September 2008 and December 2009 is ignored. at disproportionate cost. 2 £125,001 to £250,000 for residential transactions, £150,001 to £250,000 for non-residential transactions in all years. The number of Sure Start maternity grants paid in 3 £250,001 to £500,000. the financial year 2009-10 in Great Britain was 274,000. 4 £500,001+. Notes: Transactions with a value under £40,000, the current 1. The number is for all awards, irrespective of whether the award stamp duty land tax notification threshold, are excluded was made to the mother or her partner. from figures for all years. 2. The number has been rounded to the nearest 1,000. The number of transactions bearing stamp duty will Source: be lower than the number shown in the non-zero bands Annual report by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions due various applicable reliefs, (e.g. disadvantaged area on the Social Fund 2009-10. relief, group relief, registered social landlord relief). There are also some lease transactions which fall in the National Insurance: Tax Credits zero per cent. band on account of consideration, but which bear stamp duty on the lease rental. Mr Ruffley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many temporary national insurance numbers were Tax Avoidance: Northern Ireland issued by HM Revenue and Customs in each year since 1997; and what proportion of those numbers were for tax credit purposes. [45842] Lady Hermon: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much revenue accrued to the Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs only issue Exchequer from actions against tax avoidance in temporary national insurance numbers for tax credit Northern Ireland in each of the last three years for purposes. These are issued once the Department for which figures are available. [46736] Work and Pensions (DWP) have confirmed that a claimant has passed an evidence of identity test administered by Mr Gauke: Information on tax revenue in the UK is Jobcentre Plus. The present system of tax credits not collected by reference to its geographical source. commenced in April 2003 and the numbers issued are Consequently, it is not possible to allocate tax revenue detailed in the following table: to particular regions of the UK. 265W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 266W

Taxation: Banks compliance for business through issues being identified at an earlier stage with contemporaneous records being Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer reviewed. how much his Department estimates it will collect in Written Questions: Government Responses tax revenues from the banking sector in 2010-11; and what proportion of the tax collected from the banking Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer sector it estimates will be non-payroll tax. [42282] when he plans to answer Question (a) 40990 and (b) 40992, on national insurance, tabled on 10 February Mr Hoban: HMRC would expect large banking groups 2011 for answer on 14 February. [46786] to pay around £20 billion in 2010-11, of which 80% is Mr Gauke: I have replied to the right hon. Member’s from PAYE and NICs and 20% is from corporation tax. questions.

Taxation: Business WALES Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Departmental Land what assessment he has made of the effects on business confidence of the decision of HM Revenue and Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Customs to set out details of how they will undertake a if she will take steps to reduce the size of her new programme of business record checks prior to the Department’s estate; and if she will make a statement. completion of the consultation on such checks. [46517] [46742] Mr David Jones: The Wales Office occupies a small Mr Gauke: The programme of business record checks building in London and half a floor of rented office (BRC) will not commence until completion of the formal space in Cardiff. The estate is proportional to the number consultation through the consultation document issued of staff and while there are currently no plans to reduce on 19 December 2010. Following that consultation, and this already small estate further, the matter will be kept taking into account the responses received, HMRC will under review. trial the BRC process using a ‘test and learn’ approach to ensure that this is supporting businesses by either Departmental Regulation giving them assurances regarding the standard of their Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for record-keeping, or alternatively advising them on areas Wales (1) what regulations her Department introduced of those records where improvements can be made. The between 4 February 2011 and 28 February 2011; test and learn will also be an opportunity to obtain [47028] early feedback. (2) what regulations her Department revoked Mike Freer: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer between 4 February 2011 and 28 February 2011. for what reasons it is proposed that business record [47030] checks will be undertaken by staff of HM Revenue and Mr David Jones: None. Customs using powers to enter a person’s business premises under Schedule 36 of the Finance Act 2008. [46518] CABINET OFFICE Census: Publicity Mr Gauke: HMRC’s random inquiry programme indicates that poor record keeping is a problem in David Cairns: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet around 40% of all small and medium enterprise cases Office if the Government will allocate part of the (circa five million). Research by the Organisation for budget for the 2011 Census awareness campaign to Economic Co-operation and Development indicates that advertising through community radio stations. [43100] poor record keeping generally leads to an underassessment of tax even where there is an audit-type check into a Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the return for the period covered by such records. On this responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have basis, poor business record keeping is responsible for a asked the authority to reply. tax loss in up to two million SME cases annually. Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated March 2011: The loss of tax through poor record keeping, particularly As Director General for the Office for National Statistics in the current economic climate, cannot continue and (ONS) I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question HMRC is, therefore, determined to use the powers at its asking if part of the budget for the 2011 Census awareness campaign will be allocated to advertising through community disposal to improve business record keeping and so radio stations (43100). reduce the loss to the Exchequer that stems from poor As part of the overall census communication and engagement business records. programme, nearly 200 census area managers and community By carrying out tests on the business records, the advisors are contacting community and local media to raise HMRC officer may identify weaknesses and shortcomings awareness of the 2011 Census in England and Wales. Many in those records. When such weaknesses/shortcomings community radio stations have responded positively, recognising the importance of encouraging their audience to participate, and are identified they will be highlighted to, and discussed covering the census in news and editorial features. with, the customer and possible improvements may be There are no plans to allocate a specific budget for community identified. These checks will not impose a higher level radio stations. Advertising on local and community channels may of record keeping requirements than would be appropriate be used to further encourage response in specific areas later in the for the size and nature of the business. Identification of census process. These plans will not be finalised until early return record keeping issues may reduce the future cost of rate patterns are clear. 267W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 268W

Departmental Expenditure continue to raise issues relating to the Bahá’i faith regularly with Iranian officials, including most recently Stephen Barclay: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet on 10 March. Office what expenditure (a) his Department and (b) We will continue to urge the Iranian Government to each public body sponsored by his Department respect the rights of the Bahá’is. incurred on engaging external audit services in each of the last three years; and to which service providers such 24. Jonathan Lord: To ask the Secretary of State for payments were made in each year. [43746] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the state of the Iranian Mr Maude: The Comptroller and Auditor General, nuclear programme; and if he will make a statement. supported by the National Audit Office, carries out the [46117] external audits of the financial statements of the Cabinet Office and its sponsored bodies. Mr Hague: We, and our E3+3 partners, are gravely concerned by the Iranian nuclear programme. The latest The National Audit Office does not charge a fee for report from the International Atomic Energy Agency auditing the statutory accounts of Government highlights the lack of Iranian transparency over a range Departments. Departments do, however, recognise a of outstanding concerns, including possible military notional audit fee in their accounts as the cost of the dimensions to its programme. It shows that Iran is National Audit Office is borne by the Exchequer. enriching uranium in defiance of UN Security Council Details of external audit service expenditure reported Resolutions, and has produced 3,606 kg of 3.5% and in the published accounts of the Cabinet Office, and the 43.6 kg of 20% low enriched uranium. bodies it sponsors, are as follows: David Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for £000 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Year ended 31 March: assessment he has made of the state of the Iranian Organisation 2010 2009 2008 nuclear programme; and if he will make a statement. Cabinet Office 262 242 218 [46114] (notional fee) Buying Solutions 76 75 51 Mr Hague: We, and our E3+3 partners, are gravely Capacity Builders 32 32 28 concerned by the Iranian nuclear programme. The latest (UK) Limited report from the International Atomic Energy Agency Commission for the 61615highlights the lack of Iranian transparency over a range Compact Limited of outstanding concerns, including possible military dimensions to its programme. It shows that Iran is enriching uranium in defiance of UN Security Council Resolutions, and has produced 3,606 kg of 3.5% and FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE 43.6 kg of 20% low enriched uranium.

Iran Overthrown Governments: Asset Freezes 16. John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for 15. Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the has received on the effects on the political situation in merits of freezing assets of former officials of Iran of recent arrests of opposition figures; and if he overthrown governments in the Middle East and North will make a statement. [46107] Africa. [46108]

Mr Hague: I am deeply disturbed by reports of the Mr Lidington: The UK worked closely with EU partners ongoing detention of Iranian opposition leaders Mir- to secure an asset freeze in respect of Tunisia and Libya. Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karoubi and their wives. I We are currently discussing measures with EU colleagues issued a statement on 1 March calling on the Government in response to requests from the Egyptian authorities to of Iran to release both opposition leaders immediately, freeze the assets of several members of the former and on 10 March, the Iranian chargé d’affaires was regime. called into the Foreign Office. While it is not clear what effect their detention has had on the political situation, Camp Ashraf such acts by Iran are clearly not in line with its international human rights obligations. 17. Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent 19. Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for reports he has received on the human rights situation in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Camp Ashraf, Iraq. [46109] discussions he has had with his Iranian counterpart on respect for the human rights of members of the Bahá’i Alistair Burt: We have received reports of residents faith in that country. [46111] being denied access to medical care and the intrusive use of loudspeakers at the camp entrance. The UK Alistair Burt: In 2010, FCO Ministers discussed the continues to urge the Iraqi Government’s Ashraf Committee unacceptable persecution of the Bahá’is on five occasions to ensure that the residents of Camp Ashraf are treated with the Iranian embassy in London. British officials in accordance with international humanitarian standards. 269W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 270W

UK-Zimbabwe Relations The UK works actively with other member states through the EU Council Working Group on Conventional 18. Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State Arms Exports (COARM) to ensure best common practice for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent on arms export controls across the EU, and to share assessment he has made of the state of relations best UK practice. between the UK and the President and Prime Minister BBC World Service of Zimbabwe. [46110]

Mr Bellingham: We share Prime Minister Tsvangirai’s David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for concerns at the recent increase in politically motivated Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate he intimidation and violence in Zimbabwe, in contravention has made of the annual cost to the public purse of of the spirit of the Global Political Agreement. We urge retaining (a) short wave radio transmissions of the all parties in the country, including the security forces BBC World Service in the Great Lakes region of Africa and the judiciary, to discharge their duties in an impartial and (b) BBC World Service transmissions in (i) Hindi manner. and (ii) Swahili. [44513]

West Bank Mr Jeremy Browne: Under the broadcasting agreement between the BBC World Service and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the World Service has managerial 21. Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for independence, except in the case of the opening or Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent closure of a language service. The decision to close the assessment he has made of levels of economic short wave radio transmissions to the Great Lakes development in the west bank; and if he will make a region, and in Swahili, has been made by the World statement. [46113] Service. These savings are therefore managed within their budget. Alistair Burt: The most recent reports from the World Bank and International Monetary Fund show that the The BBC World Service announced on 7 February west bank economy is performing well, though with 2011 that they would not be ceasing the Hindi short significant reliance on external financial assistance. wave broadcasts from April 2011. We are encouraged by the progress of the Palestinian John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority under Prime Minister Salam Fayyad’s leadership Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent in recent years. We commend it for its sound economic representations British embassies have received on management, security improvements and focus on reductions in the BBC World Service. [45054] encouraging investment. Mr Jeremy Browne: Our posts overseas and their staff North Africa have received a number of representations about the reductions in the BBC World Service. These have been Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for by letter, e-mail and in person. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he has had with his counterparts in the BBC World Service: India countries of north Africa; and if he will make a statement. [46112] Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the expected Mr Hague: Current changes in the region are among saving to the public purse is of ending BBC World the most significant events of the 21st century; the Service transmission of Hindi-language radio international community needs to seize this historic broadcasts over the Comprehensive Spending Review opportunity to work with the people and governments period. [44703] of North Africa in support of change. Over the past month Ministers have had regular discussions with Mr Jeremy Browne: On 7 March 2011 the BBC World North African counterparts to discuss regional issues Service announced that it would retain its Hindi language and reform. service on short wave radio for one hour per day for at least one year, while it explored alternative funding Arms Trade options. Its current FM broadcasts of non-news programming, via partners, is unaffected. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The BBC World Service, has managerial independence Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he and allocates its funds as it considers appropriate. The plans to take together with EU partners to strengthen cessation of the Hindi language short wave radio broadcasts the (a) guidelines and (b) operation of the rules on would have been a platform change, rather than a arms sales. [45631] service closure, so did not require consultation with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We therefore do Alistair Burt: The Government believes that the not hold the figures for potential savings. Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria governing control of exports of military technology Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for and equipment provides a robust and effective system Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment against which to assess strategic exports. These Criteria his Department has made of the likely trends in reflect Common Position 2008/944/CFSP defining common audiences for short-wave radio in India over the next rules on control of exports by EU member states. four years. [44705] 271W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 272W

Alistair Burt: While British Broadcasting Corporation We are not aware that the FCO has facilitated any (BBC) World Service figures show that the Hindi short dedicated visits by UK trade unions to Cuba or Venezuela wave radio audience has fallen from 19.1 million people in the last 13 years. in 2007 to 10.9 million in 2010, this figure is expected to Trade union officials have regularly visited these countries stabilise. It is also difficult to capture accurately audience independently. Where they have shared their plans with figures when listening is done in groups, as is the case in the FCO we have sometimes made suggestions for their rural Indian villages. programmes and met the delegations both in London and in-country. Joseph Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Council of Europe he has made of the level of influence of the BBC World Service Hindi radio service in the last five years. [44706] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the (a) function and Mr Jeremy Browne: Anecdotal evidence suggests the (b) remit of the Group of Eminent Persons of the BBC Hindi service has a high reputation in India. Council of Europe is; when that Group is expected to However, BBC World Service figures show that the complete its report on the Living together in service’s audience for the short wave broadcasts has 21st century Europe project; what discussions been falling over the past few years. Ministers have had with the Group; and if he will make a statement. [46846] British Indian Ocean Territory: Patrol Craft Mr Lidington: The Group of Eminent Persons was Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for created in order to prepare the report “Living Together Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who the successful in 21st Century Europe” which will be presented at the bidder was for the provision of a patrol vessel for the Council of Europe Ministerial Session on 11 May 2011. British Indian Overseas Territory. [47000] Ministers have had no discussions with the Group of Eminent Persons. Mr Bellingham: The successful bidder for the provision of the British Indian Ocean Territory’s patrol vessel was Departmental Procurement Swire Pacific Offshore. Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign British Nationals Abroad: Terrorism and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to the public purse was of the (a) procurement and (b) outsourcing function of (i) his Department and (ii) each (A) agency, Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (B) non-departmental public body and (C) non- and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what injuries have been Ministerial Department for which he is responsible in sustained by British citizens affected by terrorist the last financial year for which figures are available. activities overseas since January 2002. [46984] [43956] (2) how many British citizens have been injured as a result of terrorist activities overseas since January 2002. Alistair Burt: The cost of the procurement function [46985] as reported in the back-office benchmarking analysis published by Cabinet Office on 15 December 2010, for Mr Jeremy Browne: We collate statistics on British the 2009-10 financial year, is £4.51 million for core nationals who are reported to us as having been hospitalised, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO), and £838,000 died or been killed overseas. But we do not hold information for FCO Services, and £797,000 for the British Council centrally on the number of those individuals whose which are the main arm’s length bodies of the FCO. death or injury was specifically caused by terrorism. The British Council spent £547,592 on outsourcing. For the FCO, FCO Services and the other non- Colombia departmental public bodies there are no outsourcing costs of this function. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on which Developing Countries: Mining occasions his Department has facilitated the travel of trades union officials to (a) Colombia, (b) Venezuela Stephen Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for and (c) Cuba in the last 13 years. [43928] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with the European Commission on Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth strengthening due diligence reporting for EU-registered Office (FCO) commissioned ACAS (Advisory, Conciliation companies working in mineral extraction in developing and Arbitration Service), working with the TUC (Trades countries. [45334] Union Congress) and the CBI (Confederation of British Industry) to visit Colombia in September 2008. This Mr Bellingham [holding answer 10 March 2011]: The was an exploratory visit to look into opportunities to UK has been working with the UN Group of Experts, provide advice on strengthening labour relations between and the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and central and local Government, employers and trade Development (OECD) to promote due diligence standards unions in Colombia. We are not aware that the FCO for the extractive industries in the Great Lakes region of has facilitated any other dedicated visits by UK trade Africa. We have not had formal discussions with the unions to Colombia in the last 13 years. European Commission on this issue. 273W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 274W

The UK strongly supports responsible business practices, (3) for what reasons (a) the family of Jennifer Currie including due diligence by companies in the extractives and (b) the case worker of the hon. Member for Sefton sector. The UK supports OECD guidelines for Central was advised by his officials that Jennifer Currie Multinational Enterprises. We commend the hard work should make her own arrangements for the repatriation of the OECD and the UN Group of Experts, to develop from Libya of her and her family; [46748] a clear set of due diligence guidelines for the minerals (4) pursuant to the answer of 7 March 2011, Official supply chain in eastern Democratic Republic of the Report, column 659, on Libya and the Middle East, for Congo (DRC). what reasons the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of We also strongly support the work of the UN Special State does not accept the description by the hon. Representative of the Secretary-General on drawing up Member for Sefton Central of events relating to the Guiding Principles for business and human rights, which repatriation of Jennifer Currie and her children; include human rights due diligence. [46782] (5) if he will examine the advice given by officials of English Language his Department to (a) the family of Jennifer Currie and (b) the office of the hon. Member for Sefton Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Central on responsibility for payment for a taxi to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many Tripoli Airport for Jennifer Currie and her family. English language tests were delivered by the British [46789] Council in each of the last five years for which figures are available. [45816] Alistair Burt: It is not our usual practice to discuss detailed cases of individuals in public, so I will write Mr Jeremy Browne: Over the last five years the British privately to the hon. Member. Council delivered the following number of English language exams: Overseas Trade

Total number of exams (million) Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what bilateral 2009-10 1.2 trade agreements the UK has entered into since May 2008-09 1.1 2010. [45390] 2007-08 0.9 2006-07 0.8 Mr Davey: I have been asked to reply. 2005-06 0.7 Since May 2010 the European Union (EU) has entered into a Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the Republic International Labour Organisation: Finance of South Korea, which was signed by the UK in October 2010 and will come into force on 1 July 2011. Since May Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 the EU has also launched FTA negotiations with Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much Malaysia and with Mercosur, which comprises Brazil, funding his Department provided to the International Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay. Labour Organisation in each of the last four years; and how much such funding he expects to provide in the Pakistan: Deaths next four years. [45685] Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Bellingham: The Foreign and Commonwealth Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Office (FCO) does not fund UK membership assessed discussions he has had with the government of contributions to the International Labour Organisation Pakistan on the death of Salman Taseer; and if he will (ILO); they are paid by the Department for Work and make a statement. [46756] Pensions. Nor does the FCO provide voluntary contributions to ILO headquarters. However, individual Alistair Burt: In addition to the previous response to FCO Posts have collaborated with ILO field offices the hon. Member on 31 January 2011, Official Report, using bilateral programme funds to deliver projects column 500W, I have since raised the assassination of in-country. Figures on programme spending channelled the Governor of Punjab with the Pakistan high via ILO field offices are not collated centrally. commissioner. Libya: British Nationals Abroad Governor Taseer’s assassination was a dreadful and cowardly act. Since the hon. Member’s last question on this subject, I and officials in Islamabad, alongside Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for partners in the EU, have continued to emphasise the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) if he will importance of freedom of speech and religious tolerance assess the adequacy of the support and advice given by in Pakistan. To our great regret and sadness, we have officials of his Department to (a) the family of also this month witnessed the shocking assassination of Jennifer Currie and (b) the case worker of the hon. the Minister for Minorities, Shahbaz Bhatti, with whom Member for Sefton Central between 4 and 6 March I have had extensive engagement on these issues over 2011; [46746] the last nine months. Our high commissioner has raised (2) if he will examine the advice given by his officials the need for prompt and effective investigation into this to the family of Jennifer Currie regarding (a) the tragic murder with the President, Interior Minister and booking of and payment for tickets for and (b) the senior officials of Pakistan. We will continue to work provision of booking references to Jennifer Currie; closely with the authorities in Pakistan to ensure religious [46747] tolerance and freedom of speech in Pakistan. 275W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 276W

Syria: Anti-Semitism to reflect on the assessments of the independent observers, build on positive developments, and address the Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign shortcomings identified in order to strengthen pluralistic, and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has multi-party democracy in Uganda. received on levels of anti-Semitism in Syria; whether he has made representations to the government of Syria on anti-Semitism in that country; and if he will make a TRANSPORT statement. [45642] A14: Road Traffic

Alistair Burt: Anti-Semitic sentiment is unacceptable Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for whether it occurs in the middle east, in the UK, or Transport what traffic flow data his Department holds anywhere else. The same is true for all forms of racism for each section of the A14 in the most recent period or xenophobia. for which figures are available. [45838] We are not aware of any significant recent reports of anti-Semitism against the small Jewish community in Mike Penning: The Department for Transport holds Syria. We maintain an active dialogue with Syria on data for every section of the A14. The data are collected human rights issues, including the treatment of minority continuously from automatic traffic counters. The most groups, and are working with our international partners recent complete month for which data are available is to ensure proper focus on specific human rights cases. December 2010. Data for December are affected by the seasonal effects of holidays and adverse weather. The Tibet: Politics and Government average flows for the whole of 2010 are shown in the following tables: Angie Bray: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Eastbound and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions his From To Average daily flow Department has had with the Chinese government on the arrests and imprisonment of Tibetans involved in M1 J19 A5199 21,937 A5199 A508 22,889 the 2008 protests. [46702] A508 A6 22,638 Mr Jeremy Browne: Ministers and officials continue A6 A43 31,866 to raise human rights concerns in their discussions with A43 A6013 36,796 Chinese counterparts. A6013 A509 34,016 A509 A6003 28,745 We raised the issue of Tibet with the Chinese delegation A6003 A510 20,453 at the UK/China Human Rights Dialogue in January A510 A6116 20,668 2011, expressing concern about the rights and freedoms A6116 A45 20,977 of the Tibetan people and urging China to renew its A45 A1 20,005 dialogue with the Dalai Lama. During the dialogue, we A1 A141 22,514 raised a number of individual cases of concern with the A141 A1198 33,721 Chinese delegation, including those of Tibetans involved A1198 A1096 33,441 in the 2008 riots. A1096 M11-J14 20,167 Uganda: Elections M11-J14 B1049 1.6,912 B1049 A1309 30,669 A1309 A1303 22,694 Tony Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign A1303 A11 (W) 18,593 and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has A11(W) A142 33,830 received on the recent presidential elections in Uganda; A142 A11(E) 32,706 what assessment he has made of the conduct of that A11 (E) A1302 21,848 election; and if he will make a statement. [46969] A1302 A1101 16,445 A1101 A143 18,882 Mr Bellingham: 1 received regular reports on each A143 A134 22,148 stage of the recent presidential and parliamentary elections A134 A1088 18,722 in Uganda, including on the conduct of the campaigns A1088 A1308 16,968 and polling day and the outcome of both elections. A1308 A1120 16,960 As I noted in my statement of 22 February 2011, the A1120 A140 17,309 Government fully endorses the preliminary findings of A140 A1156 23,916 the EU and Commonwealth Observation Missions to A1156 A12(S) 22,112 Uganda, which noted that while there have been A12(S) A137 25,965 improvements in the overall conduct and transparency A137 A1189 27,481 of the elections, they were marred by avoidable A1189 A12(N) 22,151 shortcomings in their organisation. We share the Observer A12(N) A154 16,365 Mission’s concern that the power of incumbency was exercised to such an extent as to compromise severely Westbound the level playing field between the competing candidates From To Average daily flow and political parties. A154 A12(N) 16,763 The Government will encourage all those elected and A12(N) A1189 21,439 all Uganda’s political stakeholders, including Uganda’s A1189 A137 26,741 Government, political parties and the Electoral Commission 277W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 278W

Westbound Mrs Villiers: The European Aviation Safety Agency From To Average daily flow published draft legislation for consultation on 20 December A137 A12(S) 25,375 2010. The consultation closes on 20 March. The Civil A12(S) A1156 23,207 Aviation Authority is currently reviewing the proposals. A1156 A140 24,219 We will respond to the consultation once it has completed A140 A1120 18,346 its review. A1120 A1308 n/a Once EASA’s final requirements are adopted as EU A1308 A1088 17,476 law there will be no scope for member states to establish A1088 A134 20,138 separate national requirements. A134 A143 22,041 A143 A1101 14,359 Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for A1101 A1302 20,026 Transport if he will assess whether changes to pilots’ A1302 A11 (W) 21,764 flight time limitations proposed by the European A11 (W) A142 32,852 Aviation Safety Agency provide levels of safety A142 A11(E) 33,839 equivalent to existing levels. [41511] A11 (E) A1303 19,053 A1303 A1309 28,918 Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to my answer A1309 B1049 30,888 given to the hon. Member for Coventry South A14-J31 B1049 n/a (Mr Cunningham) of 7 February 2011, Official Report, M11-J14 A1096 35,657 column 51W. A1096 A1198 33,544 A1198 A141 34,669 Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for A141 A1 23,277 Transport what his policy is on the maximum amount A1 A45 19,610 of time airline pilots should be expected to fly in one [41624] A45 A6116 20,949 day. A6116 A510 20,927 Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to my answer A510 A6003 20,487 given to the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen A6003 A509 29,296 Lloyd) on 28 February 2011, Official Report, column 177W. A509 A6013 33,937 A6013 A43 32,814 Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for A43 A6 31,691 Transport what assessment he has made of the effects A6 A508 22,289 on safety of the European Aviation Safety Agency’s A508 A5199 23,072 notice of proposed amendment for flight time A5199 M1 J19 21,997 limitations; whether he has conducted a risk Aviation: Pilots assessment in respect of the agency’s current plans to reform flight time limitations; and what factors he will use in determining whether changes to pilots’ flight Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for time limitations proposed by the agency provide an Transport how many meetings Ministers in his appropriate level of safety. [41627] Department have had with representatives of (a) airlines and (b) pilots since May 2010. [43936] Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to my answers given to the hon. Member for Coventry South Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of (Mr Cunningham) of 7 February 2011, Official Report, 28 February 2011, Official Report, column 176W, given column 51W, and given to the hon. Member for North to the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd). Wiltshire (Mr Gray) of 17 February 2011, Official Aviation: Working Hours Report, column 966W. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport whether he plans to review the Civil Aviation whether the Civil Aviation Authority will maintain Authority’s separate and enhanced flight time separate and enhanced flight time limitations for airline limitations for airline pilots following the pilots following the implementation of the European implementation of the European Aviation Safety Aviation Safety Agency’s Europe-wide regulations. Agency’s Europe-wide regulations in 2012. [42058] [41405] Mrs Villiers: Under current EU legislation on flight Stephen Lloyd: To ask the Secretary of State for time limitations member states are permitted to maintain Transport if he will establish separate UK flight time national requirements. However, once EASA’s final limitations for airline pilots following the requirements are adopted as EU law, there will be no implementation of the European Aviation Safety scope for member states to establish separate national Agency’s regulations on the same subject. [41512] requirements. Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Biofuels: EU Law Transport whether the Civil Aviation Authority will maintain separate and enhanced flight time limitations Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for for airline pilots following the implementation of Transport (1) what plans he has to consult on the Europe-wide regulations by the European Aviation implementation of the transport elements of the Safety Agency. [41628] Renewable Energy Directive; [44405] 279W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 280W

(2) on what date the UK will transpose into UK law Driving Standards Agency: Finance the sustainability criteria for biofuels as set out in the Renewable Energy Directive. [44406] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much funding he has allocated to the Norman Baker: I launched consultations on proposals Driving Standards Agency in each of the last five to implement the transport elements of the renewable years; and if he will make a statement. [43121] energy directive, and the greenhouse gas savings requirements of the associated related fuel quality directive, Mike Penning: The Driving Standards Agency (DSA) on 10 March. The consultation documents can be found is a trading fund and recovers most of its costs through on the DFT website and the consultation period will user charges for its services. run until 2 June 2011. DSA sometimes receives loans from Department for We expect that, subject to parliamentary approval, Transport Central, to support capital investment, as legislation completing the transposition of the transport well grants from DFT Central to undertake specific elements of the RED and FQD will come into force activities, mainly the prevention of fraud. These are from 15 December 2011. shown in the following table.

Loans (£) Grants (£) DLR: Olympic Games 2012 2006-07 15 million 800,000 2007-08 30.8 million 3,750,000 Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 17 million 5 million Transport what discussions he has had with Transport 2009-10 6.3 million 5,385,000 for London on the contingency measures should the 2010-11 0 12,714,000 Docklands Light Railway cease operating during the 1 To 31 December 2010. London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics. [43193] Driving Tests

Mrs Villiers: None. The Olympic Delivery Authority Mr Sheerman: To ask the Secretary of State for has the statutory responsibility for transport planning Transport how many individuals took the practical for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. driving test in the last 10 years for which figures are It is working closely with Transport for London and available; and how many in each such year failed the other delivery partners on the implementation of a number plate test and were required to be examined by comprehensive Olympic Transport Plan to ensure safe the competent medical authority. [46198] and reliable transport during the Games. Mike Penning: The number of individuals who have taken the practical driving test since April 2004 (the Driving Standards Agency: Cardiff earliest date for which data available), and the number of those who failed to read the number plate and failed Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for the eyesight test, are shown in the table. Transport whether he has had discussions with the Individuals that failed Driving Standards Agency on the identification of Total individuals the eyesight test alternative accommodation for its Cardiff office within the City of Cardiff; and if he will make a statement. 2004-05 1,077,321 1,032 [43123] 2005-06 1,140,808 1,101 2006-07 1,121,744 1,014 Mike Penning: Ministers in the Department have 2007-08 1,143,858 917 regular and productive discussions with the chief executive 2008-09 1,140,691 838 of the Driving Standards Agency (DSA) 2009-10 1,021,896 739 2010-11 986,921 650 DSA’s Review of Area Office Functions report recommended the closure of the Cardiff office because DSA If an eye sight test is failed, the Driving Standards estimated that the demand for administrative support work in the Agency (DSA) notifies the Driver Vehicle Licensing agency is decreasing. Agency by faxing a D255 form on the day. The main administrative functions of the DSA are DSA does not know the number of candidates who currently undertaken across three sites—Nottingham, were then required to be examined by a competent Newcastle and Cardiff. The need for administration medical authority after the number plate test failure. support will diminish over the next two years in light of an increase in electronic transactions and other business Great Western Railway: Electrification improvements, therefore the agency can operate its administrative functions from two sites rather than Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for three. Transport what assessment he has made of the DSA, as a trading fund, is funded by fees paid by potential effect on the environment of electrification of customers which need to be set at a level to recover its the Great Western Main Line between Cardiff and costs. The agency’s duty is to spend that money responsibly, Swansea. [45243] while maintaining a good level of service. That means being as efficient as possible in every area of the agency’s Mrs Villiers: The appraisal for electrification of the work and considering closely any areas of spending Great Western Mail Line included an estimation of the which may not be necessary. impact of changes to carbon emissions, local air quality 281W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 282W and noise from running electric powered trains. These The Department has also received recent representations potential environmental impacts have been estimated in on this issue from Living Streets and receive a small but accordance with the Department for Transport’s appraisal regular amount of correspondence about pavement parking guidance, which can be found at: from members of the public. http://www.dft.gov.uk/webtag/ Public Transport: Disability Large Goods Vehicles: Tolls Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department has taken to Transport what work his Department has undertaken ensure consistent levels of access for disabled people to on (a) consultation and (b) communication with road all forms of public transport. [43174] users on the introduction of a road user charging Norman Baker: I refer the hon. Gentleman to my scheme for heavy goods vehicles. [46009] answer of 4 March 2011, Official Report, columns Mike Penning [holding answer 14 March 2011]: We 626-27W. have started to discuss our developing ideas informally with interested parties. On 1 February I hosted a ‘Listening Railways: Construction to Industry’ event with representatives from the freight industry. Officials have also held exploratory discussions Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for with the relevant trade associations. We aim to launch a Transport what estimate he has made of the number of formal consultation later in the year. hectares of (a) Grade 1, (b) Grade 2, (c) Grade 3a, (d) Grade 3b, (e) Grade 4 and (f) Grade 5 Lewes-Uckfield Railway Line agricultural land expected to be subject to compulsory purchase orders to allow the construction of High Speed 2. [41964] Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has any plans to reinstate the Mr Philip Hammond: The HS2 London to the west Lewes to Uckfield railway line; and if he will make a midlands ‘Appraisal of Sustainability’, which was published statement. [43089] on 28 February as part of the consultation on high speed rail, estimates that no Grade 1 agricultural land Mrs Villiers: The Government have no plans to reinstate would be affected in order to construct a new high the Lewes to Uckfield railway line at this stage. However, speed tine between London and the west midlands, and if the local transport authority wishes to prioritise this that the proposed route would pass across Grade 2 land scheme, the Department will certainly evaluate this line for some 20 km. At this stage the Government have not reopening against other projects seeking funding. appraised the impact on lower grade agricultural land. The impact on Best and Most Versatile Land (land at Parking: Pedestrian Areas Grades 1, 2 and 3a) would be considered in more detail in the next stage of the project as part of an environmental Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for impact assessment. Transport (1) whether he plans to review the legal provisions in respect of pavement parking; [32418] Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what recent representations he has received on Transport what the evidential basis is for his pavement parking. [32419] calculation that the number of homes on the route of High Speed Two that will be seriously affected by noise Norman Baker: Local authorities have wide-ranging has fallen from 350 to 10. [44580] powers under sections 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act (RTRA) 1984 to make Traffic Regulation Mr Philip Hammond: The calculation procedure is set Orders (TROs) to put in place parking controls, including out in the ‘Appraisal of Sustainability’ Technical a prohibition on pavement parking either on a designated Appendix 5, which can be found on the high speed rail length of highway or over a wider area. Authorities consultation website at: must indicate the restrictions with the appropriate signs http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/library/documents/appraisal- and the Department has designed new signs for area-wide sustainability bans. Railways: Exhaust Emissions Last month, I wrote to every English traffic authority to remind them of the powers and tools they already have to tackle local pavement parking problems, and to Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for issue them with the special authorisation necessary for Transport whether he has made an estimate of (a) the the signs referred to above, in order to encourage them potential carbon dioxide emissions of rail services to take action where appropriate. A copy of this letter operating on High Speed Two and (b) the carbon has been placed in the Libraries of the House. dioxide emissions of rail services operating on the West Midlands Main Line in the latest period for which Representations on this matter were made recently as figures are available. [43443] a result of the Sustainable Communities Act 2007 by: (a) Newcastle under Lyme borough council; Mr Philip Hammond: Both the high speed rail (b) Newcastle upon Tyne council; and consultation document and the accompanying ‘Appraisal (c) Birmingham city council. of Sustainability’ estimate the potential operational 283W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 284W carbon dioxide emissions of rail services operating on Reported personal injury road accidents and fatalities, involving at least one High Speed Two. Copies of both have been placed in driver or rider aged under 21 years, on the A14 in Suffolk: 1997 to 2009 the Library of the House. (a) Accidents involving Fatalities in accidents involving Drivers/riders Drivers/riders My Department has not estimated the carbon dioxide Drivers1 of other of other emissions of rail services operating on the West Coast aged under vehicles2 aged Drivers1 aged vehicles2 aged Main Line. 21 under 21 under 21 under 21 1997 13 2 1 0 Railways: Finance 1998 17 3 1 0 1999 18 0 1 0 Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000 15 1 0 0 Transport what consideration he gave to announcing 2001 17 1 1 0 his decision on funding for local rail schemes as part of 2002 18 3 1 0 the comprehensive spending review settlement for his 2003 18 4 0 0 Department. [45236] 2004 21 3 0 0 Mrs Villiers: Funding for Local Transport Major 2005 19 5 0 0 Schemes, including local rail schemes, were included 2006 21 0 0 0 within the spending review announcement. Over £1.5 2007 14 1 1 0 billion will be invested in such schemes by the end of the 2008 21 0 0 0 spending review period. 2009 17 1 1 0 1 Cars, goods vehicles, bus and coach drivers. In February we announced which schemes would be 2 Includes pedal cycles, motorcycles, other and unknown vehicles. included in a revised Development Pool, with final Figures given in this answer should replace and supersede funding decisions on these 45 schemes being taken later those given in answer to related parliamentary questions this year. This pool includes a number of heavy and in earlier years. This is a result of recent changes to light rail schemes as well as other public transport parliamentary constituency boundaries, and inconsistencies initiatives. As part of this announcement we also agreed in previously-supplied statistics on accidents involving to fund access improvements at Leeds station. younger drivers. We have recently announced support for the extension of the Midland Metro system to Birmingham New Roads: Publications Street station. We have also introduced the Local Sustainable Transport John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for Fund and Regional Growth Fund, which provide Transport by what date he expects his Department’s opportunities for funding new local rail schemes. report on potential measures to reduce the congestion caused by road incidents to be published; and what the Roads: Accidents reason is for the time taken to publish the report. [46007] Mr Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport (1) how many road traffic (a) accidents and Mike Penning [holding answer 14 March 2011]: We (b) fatalities there were in (i) Bury St Edmunds completed a review of motorway closure incidents at constituency and (ii) Suffolk in each year since 1997; the end of January 2011, in line with the Department’s [45837] business plan commitment. (2) how many road traffic (a) accidents and (b) We will publish the report shortly and set out our fatalities there have been on the A14 in Suffolk plans. involving drivers aged under 21 years in each year since 1997. [45840] We are committed and remain on track to implement the recommendations from the review by December Mike Penning: The information requested is given in 2012, in line with the Department’s business plan. the following tables: Roads: Snow and Ice Reported personal injury road accidents and fatalities in Bury St Edmunds parliamentary constituency and Suffolk: 1997 to 2009 (i) Bury St Edmunds1 (ii) Suffolk Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) (b) (a) (b) Transport how much has been paid to each highway Accidents Fatalities Accidents Fatalities authority for its emergency contribution to the costs 1997 334 9 2,224 43 arising from adverse weather conditions in the current 1998 333 3 2,251 23 financial year. [43796] 1999 296 8 2,298 48 2000 360 9 2,312 56 Norman Baker [holding answer 3 March 2011]: In 2001 326 7 2,356 53 recognition of the abnormal damage caused by the 2002 315 6 2,300 43 exceptional winter weather at the end of 2010, the 2003 343 7 2,341 60 Secretary of State for Transport announced on 23 February 2004 310 5 2,220 42 2011 that the Department for Transport will be allocating 2005 308 5 2,237 36 at least £100 million of extra resource funding to local 2006 297 5 2,087 47 highway authorities in England for repairing potholes. 2007 293 7 2,076 39 The Secretary of State has written to leaders of all 2008 279 1 2,061 31 local highway authorities setting out the conditions for 2009 266 3 1,947 42 this exceptional additional funding. For authorities that 1 Based on the 2010 parliamentary constituency boundaries respond by 16 March 2011 confirming their acceptance 285W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 286W of these conditions, we will inform them of their allocations Library of the House and is also available on the shortly this date. As the damage caused by severe weather Department’s website. It recommends that local authorities was widespread across the country, and in order to consider introducing 20 mph zones wherever vehicle minimise administrative burdens for all concerned, we speeds of 20 mph are desired, including roads around intend to distribute the funds formulaically based on schools. the Department’s existing highways maintenance capital Unmanned Air Vehicles funding formula which takes into account road length and condition. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The extra funding has been made possible because Transport which unmanned aerial vehicles are the Department for Transport is expected to deliver a approved to fly in all classes of UK airspace. [41895] saving on its budget for 2010-11, following tough decisions already taken, including additional efficiencies made Mrs Villiers: I refer the hon. Member to the answers I this financial year. It remains the responsibility of local gave previously on 11 February 2011, Official Report, highway authorities to prioritise their resources and columns 446W and 456W, regarding unmanned aircraft build in appropriate resilience as part of their overall in UK airspace. maintenance programmes.

Rolling Stock INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Afghanistan: Overseas Aid Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport by what date he expects the first new trains David Miliband: To ask the Secretary of State for to be built under the Intercity Express Programme to International Development how much (a) the UK and be introduced on the rail network. [45264] (b) multilateral organisations have spent on each category of development activity in Afghanistan since Mrs Villiers: Subject to the Government continuing 2001. [46224] to be satisfied that the proposal offers value for money, the first units to be built under the Intercity Express Mr Andrew Mitchell: Details of the Department for Programme will be tested on the network from 2015 International Development’s (DFID’s) aid expenditure and introduced into revenue-earning service on the are published annually in “Statistics on International Great Western Main Line from 2016. Development” (SID), which is available in the Library of the House and on the Department’s website at Speed Limits: Schools www.dfid.gov.uk Details of DFID’s bilateral programme in Afghanistan Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for from 2001-02 to 2009-10 are reproduced in table 1. The Transport how many schools in (a) Erith and UK’s imputed share of expenditure by multilateral Thamesmead constituency and (b) in total are situated institutions in Afghanistan from 2001-02 until 2008-09, in 20 mph zones; and what steps he is taking to the last year for which figures are available, is reproduced encourage more 20 mph limit zones around schools. in table 2. It is not possible to calculate the amount of [43290] UK aid spent in Afghanistan through our central funding to non-government organisations without incurring Mike Penning: This information is not held by the disproportionate cost. Department for Transport as local speed limits are the Funding allocated to each category of development responsibility of individual local authorities. The number activity by the many multilateral organisations operating of schools situated in 20 mph limit zones will therefore in Afghanistan can be provided only at disproportionate be a matter for the London borough of Bexley. The cost. Information declared by multilateral organisations Department’s guidance to local traffic authorities on on official development assistance (ODA) spending is setting local speed limits was published in August 2006 available on the OECD DAC website at (DfT Circular 01/2006). A copy has been placed in the www.oecd.org/dac

Table 1: Bilateral programme funding spent on each category of development activity in Afghanistan since 2001-02 until 2009-10 Broad sector 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Development planning — 36,699 91,620 172,853 269,969 6,275,553 2,016,058 10,037,393 31,694,462 including economic infrastructure, urban and rural development planning

Economic Infrastructure — 1,332,256 2,695,422 1,427,326 3,968,856 3,702,368 3,922,379 5,855,349 10,441,305 including transport, power generation, business support and financial institutions

Education including — 15,000,000 30,000,000 11,000,000 7,000,000 10,000,000 11,000,000 12,000,000 12,000,000 primary education support

Environment protection — — ———— —106,394 3,327 including climate change 287W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 288W

Table 1: Bilateral programme funding spent on each category of development activity in Afghanistan since 2001-02 until 2009-10 Broad sector 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Government and state- 3,129,359 28,681,014 66,374,201 40,342,025 42,461,942 47,411,765 64,300,581 71,728,557 40,171,030 building including anti- corruption, legal and judicial development, support for elections, public sector financial management, national and local government administration, human rights, landmine clearance, strengthening civil society, narcotics control and security sector management and reform Health including basic — 15,071,913 30,160,023 11,063,657 7,543,607 10,000,000 11,008,701 12,020,445 12,068,599 health care, health education and health policy and administrative management Humanitarian assistance 46,638,573 40,886,230 3,458,142 2,936,107 1,131,769 90,417 1,960,000 14,750,000 6,619,795 including material relief, emergency food aid and relief coordination, protection and support Non-sector allocable 228,050 3,481,154 5,109,878 4,570,732 490,753 462,524 1,013 12,126 235,263 including support for NGOs, aid to refugees in recipient countries and promotion of development awareness Production sector — — 1,784,797 8,076,414 35,562,964 19,885,144 11,378,063 16,524,838 19,168,081 including agricultural development and services, small- and medium-sized enterprise development, mineral/ mining policy and management, construction policy and management and trade policy and management Research including — 56,471 247 — — 3,396 35,874 517,287 551,172 economic, education, water and sanitation, governance and social development research Social services and — — 8,403 — — — 3,015,187 105,553 29,925 infrastructure including social protection and food security programmes Water supply and — — — — — 1,000,000 288,522 3,797,409 383,554 sanitation including basic drinking water, waste management and disposal Total 49,995,982 104,545,737 139,682,733 79,589,114 98,429,860 98,831,166 108,926,377 147,455,351 133,366,512

Table 2: The UK’s imputed share of funding by multilateral institutions in Afghanistan from 2000-01 until 2008-09 £000 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Funding 8,178 26,968 36,668 33,071 31,166 43,897 34,460 25,181

Democratic Republic of Congo: Overseas Aid (DRC), are published in ‘Statistics on International Development’, which is available in the Library of the House and online at: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State www.dfid.gov.uk for International Development what humanitarian assistance his Department has provided to the DFID’s bilateral humanitarian expenditure in DRC Democratic Republic of Congo in each of the last three from 2007-08 to 2009-10 is as follows: years. [45777] Amount (£)

2007-08 46,156,000 Mr Duncan: Details of the Department for International 2008-09 32,778,000 Development’s (DFID’s) expenditure in developing 2009-10 40,979,000 countries, including the Democratic Republic of Congo 289W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 290W

Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr Duncan: The Green Breakfast meeting is an informal working group, hosted by the Secretary of State for the Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, that considers for International Development how much his issues related to the coalition Government’s commitment Department has spent on (a) salaries and (b) pension to be the “greenest government ever” and operates as a entitlements for special advisers in the financial year discussion forum on sustainable growth. The Green 2010-11 to date. [46574] Breakfast meetings are a forum for dialogue. Cabinet Committees remain in place for policy decisions to Mr Duncan: The Department for International be made. Development (DFID) has spent the following on salaries— including salaries in-lieu of notice—and pension Gaza: Economic Situation entitlements for special advisers in financial year 2010-11 to date, in respect of the previous and current Governments. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent steps his £ Department has taken to promote economic development in Gaza and the West Bank. [45778] Salary costs 109,732.47 Social security costs 10,649.92 Pension costs 17,340,86 Mr Duncan: The Department for International Development (DFID) is working closely with the Palestinian Developing Countries: Business Authority (PA), other donors, and businesses to promote economic growth in the West Bank and Gaza. Through Ms Harman: To ask the Secretary of State for our Facility for New Market Development (FNMD) International Development what initiatives his project we are providing financial support and technical Department is undertaking with businesses to advice to Palestinian businesses, helping them compete encourage corporate social responsibility in developing in new markets, develop new products and re-launch countries. [46787] operations. FNMD support has helped Palestinian businesses to achieve $43.9 million in incremental export Mr Andrew Mitchell: I refer the right hon. Member to and local sales, and to create 1,131 jobs. my answer of 10 March 2011, Official Report, column In addition, we are also providing funding to stimulate 1285W, on Business: Ethics. employment in the construction sector by increasing the availability of long-term mortgages. Through investing Developing Countries: International Assistance £14 million between 2010 and 2013, we expect to attract over $500 million of private finance for mortgage lending, Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State leading to the creation of 7,000 construction jobs over for International Development what recent steps his five years. We are also supporting the work of the Office Department has taken to encourage other governments of the Quartet Representative to reduce Israeli restrictions to provide emergency service personnel to developing on movement and access that increase the costs and countries following a natural disaster. [45779] risks of doing business and, particularly in Gaza, impede flows of imports and exports. Mr Duncan: Following natural disasters, many governments offer emergency service personnel as readily Iraq: Employment as the UK. We therefore do not find that we need to encourage other governments to respond, but we do try Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State and encourage better co-ordination of those emergency for International Development what recent steps his service teams that offer assistance. The UK aims to Department has taken to encourage the development co-ordinate with other European Union member states of employment opportunities in Iraq. [45781] through the European Commission’s Monitoring and Information Centre (MIC), which acts as a focal point Mr Duncan: The Department for International for the exchange of requests and offers of emergency Development (DFID) is providing direct support for service personnel. We also support the rapid deployment vocational training and higher education, as well as of humanitarian experts through providing funding support for improvements to the business environment and personnel to the United Nations Disaster Assessment in order to help stimulate investment and job creation. and Co-ordination network (UNDAC). Experts from the UK Fire and Rescue Service also work with the DFID established the Youth Employment Pilot United Nations International Search and Rescue Group Project (YEPP) in Basra, which provides unemployed young (INSARAG), the UN co-ordination body on search people with up to two months vocational training in a and rescue. local college followed by up to 10 months employment in a local business. So far, 477 young people have Developing Countries: Sustainable Development completed their training and are now in work placements. DFID is also funding the British Council’s Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Development Partnerships in Higher Education (DeIPHE) International Development what policy outcomes to Iraq programme which is helping to strengthen the promote sustainable development overseas his capacity of higher education institutions throughout Department (a) has developed and (b) plans to the country. develop following the Green Breakfast meeting with DFID is supporting the World Bank’s Private Sector Ministerial colleagues hosted by the Secretary of State Development programme to identify and tackle the for Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs on 8 March constraints to private investment. Through support to 2011; and if he will make a statement. [46056] the International Finance Corporation (IFC) DFID is 291W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 292W also helping to increase the competiveness of small and of each (i) Siemens 3.6-107 wind turbine in the Greater medium-sized Iraqi enterprises through improved access Gabbard wind farm and (ii) each Vestas V902-3 MW to finance and business skills. wind turbine in the Thanet wind farm. [45410] In Basra, a microfinance project which DFID funded from 2009-11 continues to make loans. It has so far Charles Hendry: The Department has not made a provided loans to more than 1,000 people, which have comparison between the lifetime CO2 emissions of Siemens been used to grow existing businesses and start-up new wind turbines in the Greater Gabbard wind farm and ones. Vestas wind turbines in the Thanet wind farm. Life cycle analysis conducted by Vestas suggests that Libya: Higher Education the turbines of the type used in the Thanet wind farm will achieve energy payback within seven months, implying Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for that over their lifetime they will produce 35 times more International Development whether his Department energy than used in manufacture and installation. This has (a) had any discussions with and (b) provided any is consistent with the range of estimates in the literature assistance to British universities in securing (i) on the performance of wind turbines in general. A 2006 contracts and (ii) financial support from Libya in the note from the Parliamentary Office of Science and last 10 years. [46075] Technology estimated that offshore wind energy has one of the lowest carbon footprints of any low carbon Mr Andrew Mitchell: Since the appointment of the technology at 5.25g CO equivalent/kWh. coalition Government, the Department for International 2 Development (DFID) has had no discussions, or provided Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State any assistance, to British universities interested in trading for Energy and Climate Change with reference to the with Libya. revised treatment of combined heat and power plant, Poverty what assessment he has made of the effects of the carbon price floor mechanism on the international Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State competitiveness of the UK’s chemical and petroleum for International Development what recent steps his industries. [46529] Department has taken to increase public awareness of the incidence and consequences of global poverty. Gregory Barker: Government are aware of industry [45780] concerns about competitiveness impacts from climate change and energy policies including the carbon price Mr Andrew Mitchell: On 1 March I announced the floor. This is why the Department for Business Innovation key outcomes of the Bilateral and Multilateral Aid and Skills and DECC are working together on the Reviews and set out the results that UK aid will deliver Energy Intensive Industry Strategy which aims to maximise for the world’s poorest people over the next four years. greenhouse gas reductions in energy intensive sectors The announcement has been accompanied by a while ensuring their future competitiveness. The strategy comprehensive communications effort to raise public will include analysis of the estimated energy price and awareness of the scale of the challenge and the difference bill impacts for illustrative energy intensive users. that well spent aid makes to people’s lives. This achieved We are aware that the issue of the role of Combined widespread coverage across national and regional media Heat and Power in energy intensive industries has been and online with the main aid review documents being raised in the context of HM Treasury’s consultation on downloaded over 24,000 times. Communicating via our carbon price support. social media channels, Facebook and Twitter, we reached over four million people. We also engaged with a broad Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State range of stakeholders who have in turn undertaken for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he supportive public engagement activity. We will continue has made of the effect of the introduction of a new with this communications effort. carbon price floor mechanism on reductions in carbon On 19 January DFID launched a review of the use dioxide levels delivered from combined heat and power aid funds in the UK to promote awareness of global plants. [46530] poverty. I expect the review to be completed by the end of March. Ministers will then look closely at its outcomes Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and and assess the relevance of these activities to the UK’s Climate Change has consulted industry representatives development objectives, in order to determine the future to understand the impacts of a carbon price floor of DFID’s development awareness work in the UK. mechanism on combined heat and power plants. DECC is going through this analysis with HM Treasury who lead on the introduction of this mechanism. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Carbon Emissions for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has made of the financial effects on combined heat and Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy power plants of the introduction of a new carbon price and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the floor mechanism. [46531] lifetime carbon dioxide emissions in respect of (a) construction, (b) transportation, (c) installation, (d) Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and maintenance, (e) turbine decommissioning of the Climate Change has consulted industry representatives turbine and (f) associated engineering work in respect to understand the impacts of a carbon price floor 293W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 294W mechanism on combined heat and power plants. DECC Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for is going through this analysis with HM Treasury who Energy and Climate Change how much additional lead on the introduction of this mechanism. revenue he expects to receive as a result of the changes DECC is also working with the Department for he has made to the carbon reduction commitment Business, Innovation and Skills on the Energy Intensive scheme. [46718] Industry Strategy which aims to maximise greenhouse gas reductions in energy intensive sectors while ensuring Gregory Barker: The Government decided not to their future competitiveness. The strategy will include proceed with the recycling of CRC revenues proposed analysis of the estimated energy price and bill impacts by the previous Administration in order to support the for illustrative energy intensive users. This strategy will public finances and contribute to the spending plans set be published in the spring. out in the spending review. The decision has the additional benefit of creating a clearer price signal in the scheme which participants have asked for. Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Efficiency Scheme The clearer and stronger price signal provided by this change should reduce uncertainty and administrative costs while maintaining energy efficiency measures amongst Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for participants and the commensurate savings in energy Energy and Climate Change if he will discuss with UK bills. port companies his simplification review of the carbon reduction commitment energy efficiency scheme. The OBR’s forecasts for revenues from the reformed [46715] CRC are available at http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/econ-fiscal- Gregory Barker: I wrote to the UK Major Ports outlook.html Group on 20 January offering a meeting and they have Forecast recently taken up this offer. A meeting with the UK Major Ports Group will take place next month. 2010-11 0 2011-12 +715 Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012-13 +730 Energy and Climate Change (1) when he expects to 2013-14 +995 conclude the simplification review of the carbon 2014-15 +1,020 reduction commitment energy efficiency scheme; 2015-16 1,040 [46716] (2) what priorities he has set for the issues to be A positive figure indicates a saving compared to considered in his review of the carbon reduction previous plans, corresponding to the revenue expected commitment energy efficiency scheme. [46717] to be generated from allowance sales each year. HM Treasury’s updated costings for spending review Gregory Barker: Feedback to date has led DECC to 2010 AME measures yet to take effect, based on the conclude that priority areas for simplification of the OBR’s November “Economic and fiscal outlook” can CRC Energy Efficiency Scheme include: be found at: Private (business) sector organisational rules of the scheme http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/d/ econ_fiscal_outlook_291110.pdf Review of the CRC supply rules Review of the CRC qualification criteria Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Reducing the overlap between schemes (especially between the Energy and Climate Change what discussions he has CRC scheme, Climate Change Agreements and the EU Emissions had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the Trading System) effect on UK ports of his Department’s carbon Timing and frequency of allowances sales reduction commitment energy efficiency scheme; and if However, other aspects of the scheme could also be he will make a statement. [46737] revisited and stakeholders are welcome to make suggestions for changes to the scheme. In making any such suggestions, Gregory Barker: Ministers and officials from DECC it would be particularly helpful if the following aspects and the Department for Transport meet to discuss a of any such suggestions were discussed in submissions wide range of energy, climate and transport issues. We to DECC: do not divulge the content of these internal Government “How your proposals would tackle the four barriers to the discussions. uptake of energy efficiency in large organisations (namely, insufficient financial drivers, uncertain reputational benefits of demonstrating Climate Change: International Co-operation leadership, split incentives between landlords and tenants and organisational inertia). Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy How your proposals might affect the magnitude of the energy and Climate Change whether the risk of vector-borne use coverage of the scheme diseases infecting the UK blood supply was discussed How the energy efficiencies/emissions savings associated with during his recent discussions at the UN climate change your proposals could be verified/audited in a proportionate but conference in Cancun; and if he will make a statement. effective manner.” [46923] The time scale for ending the simplification review will largely depend on the nature and extent of Gregory Barker: During the Cancun conference, the simplifications suggested. I expect to publish simplification Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, my proposals for formal consultation later this year. right hon. Friend for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), did not 295W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 296W have a discussion on vector borne diseases infecting the Officials are in regular contact with the UNFCCC UK blood supply. However, there were various side Secretariat on the Green Climate Fund, among other events during the meeting that addressed issues of climate climate change issues, and the UK stands ready to change impacts on global health. engage actively in the process when it gets under way. Electricity: Prices Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs

Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Energy and Climate Change if he will set out his for Energy and Climate Change whether any (a) assessment of the effect on industrial electricity prices Government departments and (b) non-departmental of his proposals on electricity market reform in public bodies derive revenue from electricity feed-in advance of the publication of the White Paper on tariffs. [46060] electricity market arrangements. [45484] Gregory Barker: The Feed-in tariffs (FITs) scheme Charles Hendry: On 16 December 2010, Government does not preclude anyone from taking part in the scheme. launched consultations on a package of options for We are unable to report at this time the number of reforming the electricity market. An assessment of the Government Departments and non-departmental public estimated impact on industrial electricity prices and bodies receiving a revenue from FITs. Unaudited numbers bills is set out in the Impact Assessment, which will be received from Ofgem shows no Government Department placed in the Library, and is based on an illustrative receiving a FITs and 51 non-departmental public bodies medium-sized non-domestic electricity user. receiving a revenue from FITs. The Government will update this Impact Assessment alongside the forthcoming White Paper. The updated Solar Power assessment will likely include additional analysis looking at the impact of electricity market reform on illustrative Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State energy intensive electricity users. for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he The Government also plan to publish findings from has made of the potential for the usage of solar their Energy Intensive Industry Strategy in spring. The photovoltaics on brownfields to increase (a) strategy will likely include analysis on the average impact economies of scale on the manufacturing and of energy and climate change policies (including electricity installation industries and (b) achievement of carbon market reform) on the energy prices and bills faced by reduction targets. [45790] large energy intensive manufacturing users. Gregory Barker: This was not part of the modelling Energy: Heating exercise undertaken by the previous Administration prior to the implementation of the Feed-in Tariffs (FITs). Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for This will considered as part of the comprehensive review Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has of the scheme. made of the merits of including hot water efficiency measures in the Green Deal. [46350] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he last met Gregory Barker: Green Deal finance will support representatives from the UK solar photovoltaic measures that can be expected to pay for themselves in industry; and how many meetings he has had with energy savings over their lifetime and within the period representatives of solar photovoltaic companies since of the finance arrangement. October 2010. [46440] Measures that deliver hot water efficiency may be eligible if they deliver sufficient energy savings to pay Gregory Barker: Ministers have regular meetings with for themselves and meet wider criteria. the solar PV industry where a wide range of topics are We are in the process of gathering evidence from discussed. industry and other stakeholders on the costs and benefits of a wide range of measures and on how best to Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State formulate eligibility criteria. for Energy and Climate Change what his Department’s estimate is of the number of jobs created in the solar Green Climate Fund photovoltaic industry since February 2010. [46441]

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: The production capacity of the UK Energy and Climate Change for what reasons the first solar photovoltaic market has expanded significantly as meeting of the Transitional Committee of the Green a result of the introduction of the Feed-in Tariff. Climate Fund was postponed; and what Opportunities in the supply chain have also increased. communications (a) he and (b) officials in his The solar PV industry reports that jobs in the sector Department have had with the Secretariat of the have increased from 3,000 in January 2010 to over UNFCCC to resolve outstanding organisational 10,000 in January 2011 and are predicted to continue to matters in respect of the Green Climate Fund. [46345] rise significantly in the years ahead.

Gregory Barker: The UNFCCC Secretariat informed Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Parties on 3 March 2011 that the first meeting of the and Climate Change what plans he has for the future of Transitional Committee had been postponed until the solar Feed-in Tariffs; and if he will make a statement. latter half of April, without citing a specific reason. [43792] 297W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 298W

Gregory Barker: The Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) scheme is higher-level learning. They do signal our intention that subject to reviews in which all aspect of the scheme informal learning must help build the Big Society, by including eligibility of technologies will be considered. delivering learning for personal and community The first review of the scheme has now commenced development and motivating disadvantaged groups to following announcement by the Secretary of State on progress, including to accredited further and higher 7 February 2011, Official Report, column 2-3WS, education. and will conclude the end of this year. As part of the review there will be fast-track consideration of solar Apprentices photovoltaic (PV) projects of more than 50 kilowatts capacity and a short study on farm scale anaerobic digestion (AD). Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has We intend to launch the fast-track consultation soon. made of the number of apprenticeship places in (a) Southend, (b) Essex and (c) Hertfordshire in (i) 2008, Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011 to date. [45576] Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 28 February 2011, Official Report, column 241W, on Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of Apprenticeship solar power, for what reasons the five megawatt starts in Southend on Sea, Essex and Hertfordshire definition of small-scale renewables in the Energy local education authorities from 2007/08 to 2010/11. Act 2008 is not being applied to solar photovoltaics for the purposes of his Department’s Feed-in Tariff review. Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts, 2007/08 to 2010/11 Provisional [45440] 2010/11 Quarter 1 (August to Gregory Barker: The Energy Act 2008 defines the 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 October 2010) maximum capacity (5MW) for the support of small Southend 490 550 640 260 scale low carbon electricity generation under the Feed-in on Sea Tariffs (FITs) scheme. FITs are currently available for Essex 5,020 5,190 6,410 2,850 solar photovoltaics (PV) from 0-5MW. The fast-track Hertfordshire 2,830 2,870 3,320 1,620 review is however only looking at tariffs for solar PV Notes: installations in the range 50kW-5MW. 1. Figures for local authorities are rounded to the nearest 10. 2. Figures are based upon the home postcode of the learner. 3. Provisional estimates for 2010/11 are not directly comparable with figures Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for for 2009/10. Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer to Source: the hon. Member for Ogmore of 28 February 2011, Individualised Learner Record Official Report, column 241W, on solar power, whether Information on the number of Apprenticeship starts his Department defines any non-solar photovoltaic is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). renewable energy technology with capacity greater than The latest SFR was published on 27 January 2011: 50 kilowatts as large-scale for the purposes of his http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Department’s Feed-in Tariff review. [45441] statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current

Gregory Barker: Under the Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme, tariffs for all technologies vary by capacity. Business, Innovation and Skills how many Tariff bands are defined by the total installed capacity apprenticeship places in Southend West constituency in kilowatts or megawatts. Terms such as “large scale” there were in (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010 and (d) are not used in the legal definitions of tariff bands. 2011 to date. [45577]

Mr Hayes: Table 1 shows the number of Apprenticeship starts in Southend West parliamentary constituency BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS from 2007/08 to 2010/11 August to January (provisional). Adult Education Table 1: Apprenticeship programme starts, 2007/08 to 2010/11 Provisional 2010/11 Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Quarter 1 (August to Business, Innovation and Skills whether his October Department’s review of adult community learning will 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 2010) include (a) eligibility for higher-level learning and (b) Southend West 270 300 300 130 access and progression to certificated forms of further Constituency [45208] and higher education. Notes: 1. Figures for parliamentary constituency are rounded to the nearest 10. Mr Hayes [holding answer 9 March 2011]: The Adult 2. Figures are based upon the home postcode of the learner. 3. Provisional estimates for 2010/11 are not directly comparable with figures for Safeguarded Learning budget of £210 million pa for 2009/10. informal adult and community learning was protected Source: in the comprehensive spending review. This learning, Individualised Learner Record usually unaccredited, is undertaken for its own sake or Information on the number of Apprenticeship starts as a step towards other learning. is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). We are working with stakeholders to develop policies The latest SFR was published on 27 January 2011: that will deliver the vision described in “Skills for Sustainable http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ Growth”. The reforms will not review eligibility for statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current 299W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 300W

Apprentices: Dartford for 75,000 more adult apprenticeship places than the previous Government were providing. Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Apprentices: Females made of the number of apprenticeships in Dartford constituency that (a) will be created in the next 12 months and (b) were created in the last 12 months. Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for [46420] Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of apprenticeships in (a) England, (b) Berkshire and (c) Mr Hayes: There were 330 apprenticeship starts in Reading West constituency were taken up by women in Dartford in 2009/10. The apprenticeships programme is the last 12 months. [46637] demand-led; the Government do not set targets for apprenticeships but provide funding and forecast the Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number and overall number of places that may be afforded. We rely percentage of apprenticeship starts by gender for England on employers and providers to work together to offer and Reading West parliamentary constituency for 2009/10, sufficient opportunities to meet local demand. the latest year for which full year data are available. We This is underpinned by this Government’s commitment only hold information at region, local education authority that by 2014-15 we will have in place sufficient funding and parliamentary constituency levels of geography.

Female Male Total Count Percentage Count Percentage Count Percentage

England 138,640 49.6 141,030 50.4 279,700 100 Reading West 330 56.5 250 43.5 580 100 Notes: 1. All figures are rounded to the nearest 10 apart from total England figures which are rounded to the nearest 100. Percentages are calculated based on unrounded figures. 2. Geography information is based upon the home postcode of the learner. Information on the number of Apprenticeship starts is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 27 January: http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current Source: Individualised Learner Record

Business: Loans information from the published 2009 National Employer Skills survey1 on the proportion of apprentices employed Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for by the size of employer. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has 1 http://www.ukces.org.uk/upload/pdf/NESS%20main%20report_1.pdf made of the potential role of local small business loan accessed on 11 March. funds to provide working capital to small businesses. Percentage of apprentices employed by employer size (NESS 2009) [46685] Number of employees of employer 100- 200- Mr Prisk: Community Development Finance Institutions 2-4 5-24 25-99 199 499 500+ Total offer loans to small businesses and operate at a local Percentage 13 34 23 8 11 10 100 level. In June 2010 the Department for Business, Innovation apprentices and Skills published “The National Evaluation of employed Community Development Finance Initiatives (CDFIs): An Action Oriented Summary for the Sector”. This set Small businesses are the cornerstone of our economy out information on the rationale and effectiveness of and high quality training opportunities like Apprenticeships local loan projects in supporting small and medium are key to supporting their growth and success. I know enterprises (SMEs). that small businesses place great value on an apprenticeship and are prepared to invest in them. Indeed, the National Business: Reading Berkshire Employer Skills Survey suggests that small and medium sized businesses employ proportionately more apprentices Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for than larger employers. Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he Citizens Advice Bureaux has made of the number of small and medium-sized businesses in Reading West constituency which Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of employed apprentices in the latest period for which State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate figures are available. [46633] he has made of the number of citizens advice bureaux in (a) England, (b) Wales, (c) Northern Ireland and Mr Hayes: Information is not available at parliamentary (d) Scotland which will close as a result of the constituency level on the size of the employer for outcome of the comprehensive spending review. [46550] apprentices. The National Employer Skills Survey (NESS) shows Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation a national estimate of the proportion of apprentices and Skills (BIS) has a wider interest in the network of employed by employer size. These data are based on local Citizens Advice Bureaux, but funding is a matter repeated surveys of up to 79,000 employers across all for local authorities, not BIS. Funding of bureaux in business sectors in England. The following table shows Northern Ireland is a devolved matter. 301W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 302W

I am aware that local authorities are facing some (£21.8 million combined) across the spending review tough choices and this may impact on bureaux funding period, and under the consumer landscape review we and we are working with colleagues across Government are proposing transferring the consumer information with an interest in the Citizens Advice Service to assess (including Consumer Direct), advice, education and the impact but funding decisions have yet to be taken by advocacy functions currently carried out by Consumer a number of authorities so the position is not yet clear. Focus and the Office of Fair Trading, to the national But the Government have made it very clear to local bodies. Funding will go with these functions but the authorities that any cuts should not disproportionately details have yet to be fully worked through. BIS hope to impact on the voluntary sector. go out to consultation on these proposals at the end of March. Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate Company Finance: Bexley he has made of the number of people who will use Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for citizens advice bureaux in each of the next four years. Business, Innovation and Skills how many businesses in [46551] (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and (b) the London borough of Bexley were fined for late filing Mr Davey: This Department provides core funding to of accounts with Companies House in the last five the national umbrella bodies for the Citizens Advice years for which figures are available; and in how many Service in England and Wales and in Scotland. That such cases the business won an appeal against the fine. funding enables those bodies to provide business services [45955] to front-line bureaux through the provision of central IT, information, training and quality assurance and Mr Davey: Companies House does not hold information standards. on companies broken down by parliamentary constituency. Local citizens advice bureaux receive funding from a variety of sources and mainly from the local authority Departmental Responsibilities in which they are located. They are all independent John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for charities and the level of funding they are able to attract Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate has been will determine the level of service they can provide and made of the (a) cost to the public purse and (b) effect the number of people able to use the service. But our on the number of civil service jobs in his Department proposals to transfer the consumer information, advice, of recent changes to the machinery of Government education and advocacy functions currently carried out which transferred responsibilities for competition and by Consumer Direct, Consumer Focus and the Office of policy issues relating to media, broadcasting, digital Fair Trading, to the national umbrella bodies should and telecoms sectors to the Department for Culture, help take pressure off bureaux so they can concentrate Media and Sport; and if he will make a statement. on delivering face-to-face advice to those who most need it. In 2009/10, the service in England and Wales [46195] helped over two million people resolve their issues Mr Davey: In a recent FOI request the Department through the provision of face-to-face, telephone and for Culture Media and Sport said that the IT changes online advice. will cost an estimated £280,000 and moving staff and materials £20,000. Whilst it is expected costs will be Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of managed within existing funding levels, we are still in State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate the process of moving staff and discussing budgets. he has made of the number of individuals (a) working Decisions on which staff should transfer are now in a volunteer capacity and (b) in paid employment at complete, and all staff transferred on 18 January 2011. citizens advice bureaux in the next four years. [46552] As part of its spending review settlement, BIS needs to find financial savings which equate to up to 400 staff Mr Davey: This Department provides core funding to exits in 2011/12. The 56 staff who transferred to the the national umbrella bodies for the Citizens Advice DCMS will not affect this number. Service in England and Wales and in Scotland. That funding enables those bodies to provide business services English Language: Education to front-line bureaux through the provision of central IT, information, training and quality assurance and John Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for standards. Funding of local bureaux, including for staff Business, Innovation and Skills which further and volunteers, is a matter for local authorities. education institutions in the London Borough of Waltham Forest provide courses in English for Roberta Blackman-Woods: To ask the Secretary of speakers of other languages; and how many learners State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much are registered at each institution. [45673] grant-in-aid will be allocated to the Citizens Advice by Mr Hayes [holding answer 14 March 2011]: There his Department in each of the next four years. [46553] are two providers in London borough of Waltham Forest who provide courses in English for speakers of Mr Davey: Funding for local Citizens Advice Bureaux other languages. Waltham Forest Further Education is a matter for local authorities, not central Government. College is the main provider and in 2009/10 they enrolled However, at the national level, the Department for a total of 1,292 learners in ESOL provision. In addition, Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) is maintaining its the London borough of Waltham Forest itself also current core funding to the national umbrella bodies for delivers to this client group and in the same period of the service in England and Wales and in Scotland 2009/10, they enrolled a total of 955 learners. 303W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 304W

For the current year 2010/11 Waltham Forest College been offered loans with a value of £3.8 million. Of has enrolled 1,781 learners on ESOL and the London which, 24 loans have been drawn down totalling £3 borough of Waltham Forest has enrolled 1,017. million. However, EFG operates under the Industrial Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Development Act 1982 which precludes its use to assist Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his or acquire banks and insurance companies. In addition Department is taking to promote the use of the English companies attached to insurance companies or that language in the UK through the funding of further undertake any activity that involves a decision on and/or education courses. [46135] granting of finance/credit to clients are ineligible for EFG for national policy reasons on the basis that they Mr Hayes [holding answer 14 March 2011]: perform activities of a similar type to banks and insurance Responsibility for funding Further Education and Skills companies. is a devolved area of legislation. Further education and Companies that are not providers of finance, credit training organisations in England that deliver English or insurance, or are attached to such providers are for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) are funded by eligible for EFG. Further details of the EFG sector the Skills Funding Agency, which is an agency of the restrictions are detailed on the BIS website: Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. ESOL provision for individuals resident in Scotland, Wales http://www.berr.gov.uk/policies/enterprise-and-business- support/access-to-finance/enterprise-finance-guarantee/efg- and Northern Ireland is the responsibility of the Scottish business-sectors Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Northern Ireland Assembly respectively. Since April 2009, when the Working Capital Guarantee scheme was launched by the previous Government, the From August 2011, full Government funding will be Department has provided guarantees of £2.2 million to provided for ESOL to unemployed people in receipt of Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Banking Group on jobseekers allowance or in the Employment and Support portfolios of commercial loans. These guarantees were Allowance (Work-Related Activity) Group, where English priced to break-even guarantee fees of £14.5 million language skills have been identified as a barrier to have been received to date and no default payments entering employment We will also continue to pay 50% of have been made to the banks. ESOL course fees for people who are settled here. We will no longer fund ESOL courses delivered in the In respect of guarantees provided to banks via the workplace as public funding should not be used to Export Credits Guarantee Department (ECGD), there substitute employer investment in training. Increased has been no analysis of their economic value to the UK freedoms and flexibilities for providers will allow them financial services sector. to respond to the needs of their communities and Export Credit Guarantees determine where their funding is prioritised. Export Credit Guarantees Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in relation to which Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for countries claims were made against the Export Credits Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Guarantee Department in respect of export made of the monetary value to the financial services transactions in the last three years; and in each case (a) rector of credit guarantees provided to that sector by which company was the (i) exporter and (ii) the obliger, the Government in the latest period for which figures (b) what the project was and (c) what the value of the are available. [43270] claim was. [46182]

Mr Davey [holding answer 2 March 2011]: Under the Mr Davey: Claims paid by the Export Credits Guarantee Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG), as of 2 March Department (ECGD) in respect of new defaults that 2011, 32 businesses in the financial services sector have occurred in financial years 2007-10 are listed as follows:

Country Exporter Obligor Project Value (£)

2009-10 Mexico —1 —1 Copper Processing 458,000 Plant 2008-09 Saudi Arabia NIS Ltd EG and G Middle East Motion Handling 4.1 million Company Ltd Equipment 2007-08 Kazakhstan Balfour Beatty International Ltd Ministry of Transport And Road Project 252,000 Communications 1 Details of the exporter and obligor have not been provided for reasons of commercial confidentiality

No claims in respect of new defaults have been paid export credit loans (and remain unpaid), so can continue to date in the current financial year. for many years after the year in which the claim was Details of potential (i.e. currently under examination) originally made. claims payments in respect of new defaults have not been provided for reasons of commercial confidentiality. Further Education ECGD also made payments in the last three years on claims in respect of defaults that occurred before 2007-08, Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for largely relating to defaulted airline cases. These payments Business, Innovation and Skills which further are made as maturities fall due under the relevant education colleges undertook capital works of a 305W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 306W monetary value of more than £1 million in the last Further Education: Business 10 years; and which such projects attracted a zero rate of value added tax in respect of (a) less than 10% (b) Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for between 11% and 50% (c) between 51% and 90% and Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has (d) 91% or above of the monetary value of the project. made of the proportion of further education colleges [45638] that have carried out zero-rated capital works which have made use of the statutory concessions permitting Mr Hayes: Capital funding for further education up to 5% business use in the last 10 years. [46928] colleges is administered by the Skills Funding Agency (SFA). Mr Hayes: Further education colleges are independent In his letter to my hon. Friend of 8 February 2011, organisations responsible for the management of their the chief executive of the SFA stated that, of the 505 own estates and the delivery of their own programmes projects for which he had relevant VAT information, and services. Neither the Department nor the Skills 35 further education colleges had undertaken works in Funding Agency collects or holds information pertaining excess of £1,000,000 and had attracted a zero rate of to the proportion of further education colleges that VAT (wholly or partially). A list of these colleges is have made use of the statutory concessions in relation provided as follows. to zero-rated capital works. The additional detailed information you request is Higher Education: Admissions not held by the SFA, and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. The issue of whether VAT is payable on project costs, and at what rate, is a matter for Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the individual college concerned to establish with Her Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects the Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Advocate for Access to Education to publish his report on access to higher education; and if he will make a FE Colleges: statement. [44578] Boston College, Lincolnshire Broxtowe College (now called Castle College) Mr Willetts: The Advocate for Access to Education, Bury College my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Canterbury College Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), expects to publish his City and Islington College report at the end of June 2011. City College Birmingham Higher Education: Finance City of Sunderland College City of Wolverhampton College Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Derby College Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Halesowen College Department has (a) had any discussions with and (b) Henshaws Society for the Blind provided any assistance to British universities in Highbury College securing (i) contracts and (ii) financial support from Libya in the last 10 years. [46068] Lambeth College Lewisham College Mr Prisk: The Department has generally promoted Lincoln College the capabilities of the UK academic and training sectors Matthew Boulton College (now called Birmingham Metropolitan in its dealings with Libya. However no specific discussions College) have taken place on securing financial support from National Star College Libya for British educational institutions. New College Nottingham Exhibition support has been provided to universities Newcastle Under Lyme College at a number of trade exhibitions in Libya in the last North Lindsey College 10 years. However we are not in a position to determine North Nottinghamshire College exactly what additional activity resulted from the support Northampton College or confirm any contracts won. Royal National College for the Blind, Hereford Higher Education: Radicalism Royal School for the Deaf Salford City College Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for South Staffordshire College Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to the Stoke on Trent College answers to the hon. Member for Tottenham of 30 November 2009, Official Report, columns 557W and Strode College 560W, on higher education: radicalism, if he will take The Manchester College steps to collect and hold centrally information on (a) Trafford College (i) instances and (ii) suspected instances of extremism Tresham Institute reported by university staff as taking place on campus Truro College and (b) funding received by campus research centres from non-democratic governments. [45854] Walford and North Shropshire College Warwickshire College Mr Willetts: Universities are not required to report Wigan and Leigh College information about instances and suspected instances of Total: 35 extremism on campus to this Department. They will, in 307W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 308W practice, usually report these to their local Police who manufacturing site at Luton remains one of GM’s most will hold this information. We do not have any plans for efficient and productive plants in Europe and the the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to Department is in close contact with GM’s senior collect and hold this information routinely. management on a range of issues; including in relation Higher education institutions (HEIs) are autonomous to Luton. and each will set its own standards for the acceptance of Vocational Guidance donations. As charities, all English HEIs should take note of general guidance, including guidance about Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for receipt of donations, from the Charity Commission and Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions any additional guidance from the Higher Education he has had with representatives of (a) further Funding Council for England (particularly in its role as education colleges and (b) sixth form colleges on the principal regulator under the Charities Act 2006). development of an all-age careers service. [45391] The allocation of public funding for teaching and research is separate from the regulation of universities Mr Hayes: Representatives of further education colleges as donation-accepting charities and the Department and sixth form colleges, including the Association of has no plans to change this. Colleges and the Sixth Form College Forum, gave evidence to the Public Bill Committee for the Education Bill Institute for Learning recently. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Discussions about clause 27 of the Education Bill, Business, Innovation and Skills what meetings which introduces a requirement on schools to secure Ministers and officials of his Department have had access to independent careers guidance, included debate with representatives of the Institute for Learning on about the development of the all-age careers service. In (a) continuing professional development for further my discussions with colleges since becoming Minister I education lecturers, (b) further education policy and have discussed the all-age careers service, which the (c) the removal of funding by his Department for the Government are introducing, on numerous occasions. Institute for Learning. [44100] Window Blinds: Safety Mr Hayes: I met with the chief executive and chair of the Institute for Learning (IfL) on 8 September 2010 Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for and we plan to meet again in the near future. My Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer discussions with IfL have covered a number of areas of 8 September 2010, Official Report, column 529W, on including the take-up of continuing professional window blinds: safety, what the outcomes were of the development activities by FE teachers, broader areas of safety seminar convened by his Department on 27 interest to the profession, and IfL’s plans to move to September 2010; and if he will make a statement. full self-funding through membership fees. [46967] My officials meet with IfL staff on a regular basis to Mr Davey: The seminar aimed at major retailers was discuss a range of issues. The Department has an observer to raise awareness of the potential risks looped blind status seat on the IfL Non-Executive Board and attend cords can pose in the domestic environment. It also its Advisory Board. advised them of the relevant product standard for internal Regulation blinds: European Standard BS EN 13120:2009 (Internal Blinds—Performance Requirements Including Safety) Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for which details appropriate safety precautions regarding Business, Innovation and Skills what regulations his internal window blinds. A follow-up seminar was held Department introduced between 24 November 2010 at RoSPA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents) and 8 February 2011. [42088] in Birmingham on 29 November 2010. Both events were a success, with attendees signing up to the British Mr Prisk: Between 24 November 2010 and 2 March Blind and Shutters Association’s (BBSA) ‘Make it Safe’ 2011, BIS introduced 26 regulations through statutory campaign. instrument. Of these, only three impose a substantive cost on business. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Vans: Manufacturing Industries of 8 September 2010, Official Report, column 529W, on window blinds: safety, what recent progress has been Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, made on the standardisation process; and if he will Innovation and Skills (1) what discussions he has had make a statement. [46968] with representatives of General Motors on the manufacture of a new model of van at its Luton plant; Mr Davey: On 9 February the Commission adopted a [46894] Decision on the safety requirements to be met by the (2) what recent assessment he has made of the revision to European standard BS EN 13120:2009 to competitiveness of the UK van manufacturing sector. address certain risks posed to children by internal blinds, [46895] corded window coverings and safety devices. We expect this to be published in the Official Journal of the European Mr Prisk: The Department keeps the competitiveness Union shortly. The UK has been instrumental in the of the automotive sector (including van production) European Standards Committee in ensuring that the under regular review, although no specific assessment revised standard covers all internal blinds and is robust of the competitiveness of the UK van manufacturing regarding child safety. Work on this is progressing, and sector has been made recently. I understand that the van we hope to see a revised standard in 2012. 309W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 310W

Written Questions: Government Responses where this makes sense, working with a range of local clinicians, and new health and well-being boards will Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for promote integration across the NHS, social care and Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to public health. answer question 42088, on regulations, tabled on The Department expects local health communities to 16 February 2011 for answer on 28 February 2011. be mindful of National Institute for Health and Clinical [46986] Excellence guidance when commissioning services for people with rheumatoid arthritis. A NICE commissioning Mr Prisk: I have replied to the hon. Member today. guide “Services for the diagnosis and management of rheumatoid arthritis in adults”was published in December HEALTH 2009 to assist commissioners in implementing “NICE Clinical Guideline 79: the management of rheumatoid Arthritis: Health Services arthritis in adults locally”, including consideration of access to care for people with established rheumatoid Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health arthritis. if he will take steps to ensure that people diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis are referred to a specialist at Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health an appropriate time in respect of diagnosis and whether his Department plans to encourage the sharing follow-up appointments and during flare-ups. [46021] of good practice in rheumatoid arthritis services Paul Burstow: It is for clinicians in primary and provided by different groups of commissioners; and if secondary care to make referrals appropriately, and for he will make a statement. [46023] commissioners to ensure that they have commissioned Paul Burstow: The Health and Social Care Bill provides sufficient clinical capacity to allow timely access to first for consortia to work collaboratively on commissioning. or follow-up appointments. Primary care trusts and, in The NHS Commissioning Board will support general future, general practitioner (GP) consortia should be practitioner (GP) consortia in their commissioning decisions working with local service providers to ensure the correct and provide leadership for quality improvement through capacity is available to provide the best evidence based commissioning. This will include setting commissioning care for their patients. guidelines on the basis of clinically approved quality The Department expects local health communities to standards developed with advice from the National be mindful of National Institute for Health and Clinical Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) Excellence (NICE) guidance when commissioning services and in the case of rheumatoid arthritis, in a way that for people with rheumatoid arthritis. A NICE promotes joint working and sharing of good practice commissioning guide “Services for the diagnosis and across health, public health and social care. management of rheumatoid arthritis in adults” was A NICE commissioning guide “Services for the diagnosis published in December 2009 to assist commissioners in and management of rheumatoid arthritis in adults” was implementing “NICE Clinical Guideline 79: the published in December 2009 to assist commissioners in management of rheumatoid arthritis in adults locally”, implementing “NICE Clinical Guideline 79: the including consideration of access to care for people management of rheumatoid arthritis in adults” locally, with established rheumatoid arthritis. including consideration of access to care for people Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with established rheumatoid arthritis. what assessment his Department has made of the need for co-ordination between local authorities, the Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health national health service and social care services to what steps his Department is taking to ensure that GP ensure that services for people diagnosed with consortia have the appropriate skills and knowledge to rheumatoid arthritis are fully integrated. [46022] commission services for people diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis which develop their ability to Paul Burstow: The Department has not made any self-care and manage their pain on a day-to-day basis. specific assessment of the need for co-ordination between [46024] local authorities, the national health service and social care services to ensure that services for people diagnosed Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and with rheumatoid arthritis (RA) are fully integrated. Clinical Excellence (NICE) published the commissioning However it has established a dedicated national work guide “Services for the diagnosis and management of stream on improving the care of all people with long rheumatoid arthritis in adults” in December 2009. This term conditions (including RA) within the Quality is intended to assist commissioners in local implementation Innovation Productivity and Planning programme. of “NICE Clinical Guideline 79: the management of It is currently the responsibility of primary care rheumatoid arthritis in adults”, including consideration trusts (and general practitioner consortia in the future) of access to care for people with established rheumatoid as commissioners of healthcare services to ensure that arthritis. their populations have access to the services that they By devolving power and responsibility for commissioning require. Primary care professionals need to ensure the services to local consortia of general practitioner (GP) services that patients receive are co-ordinated, helping practices, we will ensure that commissioning decisions them to navigate the system and ensure they get the best are taken at a level as close to patients as possible. The care through shared decision making. The Health and Health and Social Care Bill provides for consortia to Social Care Bill enables GP consortia to work work collaboratively on commissioning by, for example, collaboratively on commissioning. Commissioners will entering into lead commissioner and pooled budgetary have greater scope to develop integrated care pathways arrangements. 311W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 312W

The Bill also provides for the establishment of the Mr Simon Burns: The Department received 799 written NHS Commissioning Board to support GP consortia questions due for answer on a named day between in their commissioning decisions and to provide leadership 27 May 2010 and 9 March 2011. Of those, eight questions for quality improvement through commissioning. Activities or 1% were not answered substantively on the day will include the issue of commissioning guidelines which named for answer. reflect NICE quality standards developed with advice from clinicians and that promote joint working across Drugs: Rehabilitation health, public health and social care. The Board will also promote and extend public and patient involvement and choice. Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost to the NHS pharmaceuticals Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Health Services budget of prescribing (a) buprenorphine and (b) subutex was in the latest period for which figures are Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for available. [46451] Health whether he plans to establish specialist myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome services in Mr Simon Burns: Net ingredient cost (NIC) prescribing parts of the country where there are none. [46759] figures are provided in the following table. NIC of prescription items written in the United Kingdom and Paul Burstow: It is the responsibility of local health dispensed in the community in England—12 month period October bodies, which have a comprehensive knowledge of their 2009 to September 2010 local populations, to commission services for people £000 with chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis, taking into account the resources they have available, Buprenorphine 60,139.0 the needs of their wider population, and available guidance Subutex 6,656.3 on best practice. Notes: 1. Figure for buprenorphine includes buprenorphine and naloxone Departmental Land combination products. 2. Subutex is a brand name for a form of the chemical buprenorphine. 3. Figure for subutex is included in the figure for buprenorphine. Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Source: Health if he will take steps to reduce the size of his Prescription cost analysis system. Department’s estate; and if he will make a statement. [46222] Eyesight: Testing

Mr Simon Burns: The Department has recently agreed Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Health its estate strategy for its core headquarters estate, which what proportion of people entitled to a free annual eye will be to reduce the number of buildings in London test used their entitlement in the last 12 months for from four to two by the end of 2012. The Department which figures are available. [45958] will also continue to occupy its Leeds office, Quarry house and our plans here are to maximise the space Mr Simon Burns: The “General Ophthalmic Services available in Quarry house for use by a number of our Activity Statistics for England and Wales”, published non-departmental public bodies. by the NHS Information Centre, showed that in England Departmental Public Consultation there were 11.8 million national health service funded sight tests in 2009-10. The statistics published by the NHS Information Centre provide a breakdown of these Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for figures by eligible groups. Health how many public consultations his Department has conducted in each of the last 10 years; for how long The statistics do not allow us to say precisely what each consultation was open; how many responses were proportion of people eligible to receive a free annual received to each consultation; and what the cost to the eye test used their entitlement. public purse was of conducting each consultation. [46594] Food: Packaging

Mr Simon Burns: A table that details the Department’s Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if consultations launched from 2002 onwards, and their he will assess the effects on human health of mineral period of duration has been placed in the Library. oils present in food packaging. [45795] The Department does not hold information about the number of responses to each consultation or the Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) is costs of conducting public consultations centrally. This not aware of any evidence that mineral oils in food information could be obtained only at disproportionate packaging present a significant food safety concern for cost. consumers. Departmental Written Questions This position is supported by a FSA study carried out in 2003 on the migration of mineral oils from food Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for packaging into food. Health what proportion of written questions tabled to The FSA is currently undertaking a surveillance him for answer on a named day between 27 May 2010 programme to study the migration of printing inks into and 9 March 2011 did not receive a substantive answer food and the levels of mineral oils in carton board on the day named for answer. [46558] packaging material. 313W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 314W

The FSA continues to review evidence in this area Mr Simon Burns: Information on all healthcare associated and will act to protect consumers if the evidence shows infections is not collected centrally. The best available it is necessary to do so. information is from the Department’s mandatory surveillance system. This collects data on the methicillin- Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health resistant “Staphylococcus aureus”bloodstream infections what recent assessment has been made of the health (bacteraemias); “Clostridium difficile” infections; effects of the use of recycled card in food packaging. glycopeptide-resistant enterococci bacteraemias (GREs); [45796] and selected orthopaedic surgical site infections. Data for Berkshire trusts are given in the tables that have Anne Milton: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) is been placed in the Library. Mandatory surveillance not aware of any evidence that food packaging made data for GRE bacteraemia are not included owing to from recycled card presents a significant food safety inconsistent reporting of this infection. concern for consumers. Meals on Wheels This position is supported by a FSA study carried out in 2002 on the migration of inorganic contaminants Laura Sandys: To ask the Secretary of State for in recycled paper and board in contact with dry food. Health if he will take steps to safeguard the meals on The FSA is currently undertaking research to gain wheels service. [46499] knowledge of substances that should be effectively removed by recycling, to ensure that the recycling process has Paul Burstow: Local councils are responsible for assessing been properly carried-out. the need for community based services, including meals The FSA continues to review evidence in this area on wheels, in their areas. Councils are free to determine and will act to protect consumers if the evidence shows how best to meet the needs of their populations; they it is necessary to do so. pay for services out of their general funds, which are derived from funding from central Government and General Practitioners: Pharmacy local taxation. Funding from central Government, via the Formula Grant paid to local councils, is not ring-fenced Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for spending on specific services, such as meals on if he will bring forward proposals to remove the one wheels. mile residency requirement applying to pharmaceutical In recognition of the pressures on the social care dispensaries operated by GP surgeries. [46524] system in a challenging fiscal climate, the Government have allocated an additional £2 billion by 2014-15 to Mr Simon Burns: In the autumn of 2008, the previous support the delivery of social care. With an ambitious Administration consulted on various proposals arising programme of efficiency, there will be enough funding from its pharmacy White Paper “Pharmacy in England— available both to protect people’s access to services and building on strengths, delivering the future”, which was deliver new approaches to improve quality and outcomes. published in April 2008. The consultation included Medicine: Research proposals for revision to the current NHS (Pharmaceutical Services) Regulations 2005, which govern whether or not doctors may provide dispensing services to their Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for patients. As a result of that consultation, the previous Health what assessment he has made of the merits of administration announced in December 2008 that there establishing a health research agency as recommended would be no change to those regulatory arrangements. by the Academy of Medical Sciences review on the regulation and governance of health research. [45752] As with all matters, we keep the operation of regulations under regular review. There are no plans to bring forward Mr Simon Burns: National regulation and local any such proposals at this stage. governance of health research are too complex and scattered across too many different bodies. Health Centres: Harrow The report of the Academy of Medical Sciences review of medical research regulation and governance Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health makes the case for simplification under a health research what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of agency that will streamline and co-ordinate regulatory walk-in centres and polyclinics in the London borough and governance processes. of Harrow in meeting patient need; and if he will make The Government welcome the report and are carefully a statement. [46078] considering how to implement its recommendations. Mr Simon Burns: It is the responsibility of the local Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for national health service to assess the effectiveness of the Health what assessment he has made of the merits of services it provides and ensure that appropriate services establishing key performance indicators for research are accessible to its local population. activity in the next NHS Operating Framework as recommended by the Academy of Medical Sciences Hospitals: Berkshire review on the regulation and governance of health research. [45753] Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many healthcare-acquired infections there Mr Simon Burns: National regulation and local were in each NHS facility in Berkshire in each of the governance of health research are too complex and last 10 years. [46626] scattered across too many different bodies. 315W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 316W

The Government welcome the report of the Academy the local NHS to determine in the light of its assessment of Medical Sciences and is carefully considering how to of local need. Commissioning guidance to PCTs has implement its recommendations. been issued to ensure IAPT is delivered as an additional service rather than a replacement for existing services. Mental Health Services The IAPT programme exists to help the NHS put in place the evidence-based therapies approved by the Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for NICE for treating depression and anxiety disorders. Health (1) what audits his Department has carried out NICE approves cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT), of primary care trusts (PCTs) which received counselling, couple therapy, interpersonal therapy (IPT) Government funding ring-fenced for the provision of and brief dynamic therapy for mild to moderate depression; improved access to psychological therapy (IAPT) CBT and IPT for moderate to severe depression; and services to determine whether such PCTs removed CBT for all anxiety disorders. funding from non-IAPT services which were to have been replaced by IAPT; [45476] Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen (2) what assessment he has made of the role of improved access to psychological therapies as (a) an Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health addition to and (b) a substitute for existing mental how many mental health nurses mental health trusts health services; and if he will make a statement; [45477] have recruited for the purposes of treating ex-service (3) what guidance he issued to primary care trusts on personnel in the last six months; and if he will make a continued commissioning of non-improved access to statement. [45881] psychological therapy (IAPT) services when IAPT services were introduced; and if he will make a Paul Burstow: The Government have made additional statement; [45478] funds available from 2011-12 to allow the recruitment of 30 whole-time equivalent additional professionals to (4) what range of therapies his Department expects better meet the mental health needs of veterans. There to be included within the designation of improved is now an armed forces network in each English region access to psychological therapy; [45479] and these networks, will determine in detail how these (5) what assessment he has made of the extent to additional staff are to be deployed, to deliver better which pre-existing mental health services have been mental health care to the armed forces, their families discontinued on the grounds that improved access to and veterans. psychological therapy has superseded them; and which services have been discontinued. [45480] Mental Illness: Ex-servicemen Paul Burstow: The Department, through strategic health authorities, has monitored the use and application Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for of growth funds allocated to develop Improving Access Health if he will estimate the (a) number of and (b) to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) services as part of cost to the public purse of the treatment of comprehensive spending review 2007. This has been ex-servicemen and women diagnosed with mental supported by commissioning guidance to primary care health issues in 2010. [46944] trusts (PCTs) aimed at ensuring that this investment has been used in addition to rather than substituting for Paul Burstow: There are estimated to be 5 million related services. However, the Department does not veterans in the United Kingdom. They make use of hold this information centrally. Decisions about the national health service care like any other member of range of services available to meet the needs of each the population and are not necessarily identified as area are the responsibility of local commissioners. veterans when they do so. It is therefore not possible to A total of 3,660 additional therapists and psychological estimate either the number or costs involved. The well-being practitioners have started or completed IAPT— Government recently announced a package of measures funded training since October 2008. Nearly 491,000 aimed at encouraging recent service leavers to access people have been seen by IAPT services between October mental health services when they need them at a cost of 2008 and December 2010, with more than 243,000 £9.2 million over the next four years. completing treatment and a recovery rate of around 40%. More than 18,000 of the people treated have come Musculoskeletal Disorders: Health Services off sick pay and benefits, who would not otherwise have been able to. Heather Wheeler: To ask the Secretary of State for IAPT services are intended to complement and Health (1) how much his Department spent on supplement a range of existing mental health services problems of the musculoskeletal system in (a) 2008-09 by providing primary and community based National and (b) 2009-10; and if he will make a statement; Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) [45895] approved treatment to people with depression and anxiety (2) how much (a) his Department and (b) the NHS disorders. Historically, around 85% of adults experiencing spent on problems of the musculoskeletal system in these conditions have received no national health service each cost category in 2009-10. [45896] support and IAPT is making good progress in addressing this problem. Paul Burstow: Total departmental expenditure on At the start of the programme, it was envisaged that problems of the musculoskeletal system is available IAPT services would be additional to any psychological from estimated programme budgeting data for England. therapy services already in place, but this is a matter for These data have been placed in the Library. Departmental 317W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 318W expenditure includes expenditure incurred by primary medical officers are currently giving the report and its care trusts, strategic health authorities and some special recommendations on mandatory folic acid fortification health authorities. their full consideration before advising Health Ministers. Further breakdown of expenditure on musculoskeletal A decision on such an important public health intervention conditions by cost category is not available from programme must be based on good science, independent advice budgeting data. provided by SACN, and balance the benefits as well as any potential risks. NHS: Finance Obesity: Children Gavin Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what his Department’s annual spend per head Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Health of population was in (a) Dudley and (b) what estimate he has made of the proportion of his Wolverhampton primary care trust area in the most Department’s expenditure on tackling childhood recent financial year for which figures are available. obesity in 2010-11 to be spent on sport or physical [46059] recreation in 2010-11. [45869]

Mr Simon Burns: The amounts spent per head of Anne Milton: In 2010-11, the Department transferred population in 2009-10 by Dudley primary care trust £10 million to the Department for Transport to support (PCT) and Wolverhampton PCT are shown in the following its work to promote cycling. £650,000 has been spent on table. 2009-10 is the most recent financial year for which initiatives to encourage walking. This is approximately figures are available. 30% of the Department’s total obesity budget. 2009-10 In addition, there has been further expenditure within Organisation £ this budget on programmes such as the Healthy Towns programme and the Change4Life campaign which aim Dudley PCT 1,638 to support people to become more active as well as Wolverhampton PCT 1,832 promoting healthy eating. Notes: 1. “How much his Department spends” has been interpreted as Respite Care: Parents meaning the total revenue expenditure of the PCT (the net operating costs). 2. The net operating cost is taken from the audited summarisation Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State schedules of South Staffordshire PCT for 2009-10. This figure is for Health what respite care his Department provides divided by the PCT’s resident population to derive the spend per head for parents of disabled and violent children. [46042] figure. NHS: Management Consultants Paul Burstow: The Government launched “Recognised, valued and supported: Next steps for the Carers Strategy” Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) in November 2010. This sets out a framework for supporting how much each of the sector primary care trusts in the carers of both adults and ill and disabled children. London has spent on consultancy services since their As part of this £6 million of new funding has been inception; [46079] made available to train general practitioners to identify (2) how much NHS London and its sector primary and support carers and an additional £400 million has care trusts have spent on consultancy services in been announced to proved breaks for all carers, including carers of ill and disabled children. financial year 2010-11. [46080] The Department has worked with the Department Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected for Education on a number of aspects of the Green centrally. The hon. Member may wish to contact the Paper “Support and aspiration: A new approach to organisations directly to obtain consultancy spend figures. special educational needs and disability - A Consultation” published on 9 March. This outlines the ambition to Nutrition: Flour provide ongoing respite care and short breaks for children to help families cope with their day-to-day caring Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health responsibilities. (1) what assessment his Department has made of the In December 2010, the Department for Education recommendations of the Scientific Advisory announced that it will provide over £800 million through Committee on Nutrition on the refortification of wheat the early intervention grant (EIG) to support short flour; and when he plans to issue guidance on that breaks for disabled children over the spending review matter; [45380] period (£198 million in 2011-12; £202 million in 2012-13; (2) what assessment he has made of the £206 million in 2013-14; and £210 million in 2014-15). recommendations by the Food Standards Agency that This figure represents a small increase in the levels of all flour be fortified with folic acid. [45400] funding which were provided to local authorities for this activity in 2010-11, and includes the previously Anne Milton: The Scientific Advisory Committee on announced funding to be provided from child trust Nutrition (SACN) and Food Standards Agency Board fund money. has recommended mandatory fortification of wheat Up to £30 million was made available in 2010-11 to flour with folic acid in the United Kingdom, with the children’s palliative care sector, which plays an important controls on voluntary fortification and guidance on the part in the provision of respite to families of children use of supplements, as an effective measure to prevent with disabilities. Among the successful projects funded pregnancies affected by neural tube defects. UK chief were several relating to respite care. 319W Written Answers15 MARCH 2011 Written Answers 320W

More generally, the Government have committed to Surgery: Waiting Lists reducing the ring fences around central Government funding to allow local areas more autonomy and flexibility Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for to prioritise and determine which services can be funded Health (1) what the average waiting time is for cataract for families with disabled children, including parents of treatment (a) in each region and (b) as measured by disabled and violent children. the OECD; and if he will make a statement; [45850] (2) what the average waiting time is for cataract Ritalin: Misuse surgery for a second eye; and what information his Department holds for international benchmarking purposes on the average such waiting time in other Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State OECD countries. [45851] for Health if he will take steps to reduce the incidence of misuse by adults of ritalin prescribed for children Mr Simon Burns: The average (median) waiting time with ADHD as a recreational drug. [46044] for cataract treatment in each strategic health authority (SHA) is shown in the following table. Mr Simon Burns: The Government recognise the Median waiting time (days) for cataract surgery treatment, from decision to dangers posed by diversion of controlled drugs such as admit to admission, by SHA of commissioner in 2009-10 methylphenidate (Ritalin) in the community. That is Days why methylphenidate is subject to strict conditions under schedule 1 of the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 2001. North East 49 North West 59 It is the responsibility of prescribers to ensure that Yorkshire and the Humber 58 any medication prescribed is sufficient to meet the East Midlands 49 clinical circumstances of individual patients and is being West Midlands 63 used appropriately. The situation should be kept under East of England 55 review to ensure that the patient is benefiting from the London 48 treatment. South East Coast 74 South Central 73 Streptococcus: Screening South West 65 England 57 Notes: Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for 1. 2009-10 is the latest period for which confirmed data are available. Health pursuant to the answer of 7 March 2011, 2. Data include finished admission episodes with a main procedure or primary Official Report, column 907W, on streptococcus: medical diagnosis of cataract surgery treatment. Source: screening, what steps he plans to take to reduce the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), the Information Centre for Health and incidence of group B streptococcus. [46527] Social Care Data on waiting times for cataract surgery for a Anne Milton: The Department supports the ‘Standards second eye are not held centrally. There is no mechanism for Maternity Care’ published by the Royal College of to extract data relating to a previous procedure from Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) in 2008, which HES and therefore the time waited between the completion state that maternity services should comply with evidence- of cataract surgery on the first and second eye. based guidelines for the provision of high-quality clinical The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and care. Development Health Data statistics and indicators do We encourage the national health service to take into not include current comparative information on waiting account the guidance for obstetricians, midwives and times for cataract treatment and the Department does neonatologists provided by the RCOG which published not hold information on waiting times for cataract its Green-top guideline No.36 on the prevention of surgery for international benchmarking purposes. early-onset neonatal Group B Streptococcus disease in Urology: Nurses November 2003. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department has asked the National Institute for Health how many stoma care nurses there were in the Health and Clinical Excellence to produce a clinical NHS in (a) 2001, (b) 2006 and (c) the most recent guideline on the use of antibiotics for the prevention year for which figures are available. [46216] and treatment of early onset neonatal infection. One of the relevant infections is Group B Streptococcus. The Anne Milton: The information requested is not collected guideline is currently under development. by the Department.

5MC Ministerial Corrections15 MARCH 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

An error has been identified in the written answer Ministerial Correction given to the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) on 8 March 2011. The incorrect Tuesday 15 March 2011 auditor was listed for the Horserace Betting Levy Board. The auditor was Grant Thornton UK LLP, not the National Audit Office. The correct answer should have been: CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT John Penrose: The Department for Culture, Media Departmental Expenditure and Sport is audited by the National Audit Office (NAO). The NAO charge notional fees for the audit of central Government Departments and Executive Agencies. Stephen Barclay: To ask the Secretary of State for There is therefore no expenditure for the external audit Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what expenditure of the Department’s Resource Accounts and The Royal (a) his Department and (b) each public body sponsored Parks Accounts. by his Department incurred on engaging external audit The Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media services in each of the last three years; and to which and Sport has management and control responsibilities service providers such payments were made in each for the National Lottery Distribution Fund (NLDF) year. [43759] and the Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund (OLDF). [Official Report, 8 March 2011, Vol. 524, c. 924-26W.] Both funds are audited by the NAO and charged a hard Letter of correction from Mr John Penrose: fee in cash as set out in the following table.

£ Body Auditor 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08

Department For Culture, Media and Sport (NLDF) National Audit Office 26,500 28,900 24,000 Department For Culture, Media and Sport (OLDF) National Audit Office 26,500 28,900 24,000

Most of the Department’s arm’s length bodies are The following table sets out the bodies, their auditors audited by the NAO and are charged a hard fee in cash. and the fees charged as disclosed in the bodies’ annual The two bodies audited by private firms are companies reports and accounts. as well as being charities, and have not been designated for audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General under the Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000.

£ Body Auditor 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08

Arts Council England1 National Audit Office 68,000 75,000 60,000 Arts Council England Lottery Account National Audit Office 62,000 71,000 61,000 Big Lottery Fund National Audit Office 106,000 105,000 110,000 British Library National Audit Office 53,000 52,000 50,000 British Museum National Audit Office 59,000 50,000 47,000 Commission for Architecture and the Built National Audit Office 28,000 27,000 26,090 Environment English Heritage National Audit Office 74,000 69,000 61,000 Football Licensing Authority National Audit Office 8,900 6,900 6,200 Gambling Commission National Audit Office 39,000 47,000 33,000 Geffrye Museum National Audit Office 9,000 7,500 6,400 Horniman Museum BDO Stoy Hayward LLP 13,100 13,825 12,450 Horserace Betting Levy Board Grant Thornton UK LLP 45,000 38,000 35,000 Imperial War Museum National Audit Office 41,000 36,000 34,000 Museums, Libraries and Archives Council National Audit Office 63,000 93,000 58,000 Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester Beever and Struthers 9,500 9,500 11,410 National Gallery National Audit Office 40,000 38,650 37,165 National Heritage Memorial Fund (NHMF)1 National Audit Office 10,000 9,000 8,000 Heritage Lottery Fund (maintained by NHMF) National Audit Office 42,000 42,000 36,000 National Lottery Commission National Audit Office 25,000 24,000 22,000 National Museums Liverpool National Audit Office 54,000 50,000 45,000 National Maritime Museum National Audit Office 36,000 35,000 33,000 National Museum of Science and Industry National Audit Office 92,000 92,000 87,000 National Portrait Gallery National Audit Office 35,000 32,000 31,000 Natural History Museum National Audit Office 49,000 51,000 46,000 Olympic Delivery Authority National Audit Office 238,000 212,000 158,000 7MC Ministerial Corrections15 MARCH 2011 Ministerial Corrections 8MC

£ Body Auditor 2009-10 2008-09 2007-08

Olympic Lottery Distributor National Audit Office 13,000 13,000 12,000 Public Lending Right Central Fund Account National Audit Office 18,000 17,500 17,000 Royal Armouries National Audit Office 36,000 36,000 41,000 Sir John Soane’s Museum National Audit Office 14,000 14,000 8,250 Sport England National Audit Office 102,000 80,000 76,000 Sport England Lottery Distribution Fund National Audit Office 55,000 52,000 47,500 Tate National Audit Office 49,000 42,000 40,000 UKAnti-Doping2 National Audit Office 17,000 n/a n/a UK Film Council1 National Audit Office 33,000 33,000 21,000 UK Film Council Lottery Distribution Fund National Audit Office 24,000 24,000 20,000 UK Sport1 National Audit Office 45,000 45,000 33,000 UK Sport Lottery Distribution Account National Audit Office 28,000 28,000 26,000 Victoria and Albert Museum National Audit Office 45,000 45,000 37,000 VisitBritain National Audit Office 57,000 55,000 52,000 Wallace Collection National Audit Office 23,000 22,000 22,000 1 Under the National Lottery etc Act 1993, Arts Council England, CE, NHMF, Sport England, UK Film Council and UK Sport are required to produce separate Lottery Distribution accounts. These are audited separately and shown as separate lines from the parent body’s accounts. 2 UK Anti-Doping has only been in independent operation since 2009-10. Note: The Big Lottery Fund is a Lottery body but has its Lottery income consolidated with its other figures. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE .... 143 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Council of Ministers ...... 149 continued Economic Prospects (EU) ...... 150 Middle East ...... 156 Egypt ...... 147 Middle East ...... 157 Eritrea...... 145 Sri Lanka...... 143 Libya...... 151 Terrorist Organisations ...... 146 Libya...... 153 Topical Questions ...... 157 Libya...... 155 UK-Caribbean Relations ...... 144 Middle East ...... 148 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 15 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 6WS TREASURY ...... 5WS Diplomatic Service Appeals Board...... 6WS Hutton Review...... 5WS Tax Policy Making, Tax Impact Assessments and JUSTICE...... 6WS Tax Information and Impact Notes...... 5WS Draft Defamation Bill...... 6WS PETITION

Tuesday 15 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 1P Branfil Primary School (Upminster)...... 1P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 15 March 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 237W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Confiscation Orders ...... 237W Institute for Learning...... 307W Fraud: Prosecutions ...... 237W Regulation ...... 307W HM Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate: Vans: Manufacturing Industries...... 307W Redundancy...... 238W Vocational Guidance...... 308W Serious Fraud Office: Redundancy ...... 238W Window Blinds: Safety...... 308W Treasury Solicitors Department: Finance...... 239W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 309W Treasury Solicitors Department: Manpower ...... 239W Treasury Solicitors Dept: Redundancy...... 240W CABINET OFFICE...... 266W Census: Publicity...... 266W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 297W Departmental Expenditure ...... 267W Adult Education ...... 297W Apprentices...... 298W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 258W Apprentices: Dartford...... 299W Anti-Semitism...... 258W Apprentices: Females ...... 300W Community Development...... 258W Business: Loans...... 299W Community Relations: English Language ...... 258W Business: Reading Berkshire ...... 299W Jewish Community...... 259W Citizens Advice Bureaux ...... 300W Private Rented Housing ...... 259W Company Finance: Bexley...... 302W Town Centres ...... 260W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 302W English Language: Education ...... 302W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 167W Export Credit Guarantees...... 303W Arts: Finance ...... 167W Export Credit Guarantees...... 304W BBC ...... 167W Further Education ...... 304W Broadband ...... 168W Further Education: Business...... 306W Broadband: Lancashire...... 169W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 306W Broadcasting: Advertising...... 169W Higher Education: Finance ...... 306W Departmental Conditions of Employment...... 169W Higher Education: Radicalism ...... 306W Internet: Young People ...... 170W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued EDUCATION—continued Olympic Games 2012: Berkshire ...... 170W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 183W

DEFENCE...... 207W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 291W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 207W Carbon Emissions...... 291W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 208W Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Ammunition ...... 209W Efficiency Scheme ...... 293W Armed Forces ...... 209W Climate Change: International Co-operation...... 294W Armed Forces: Allowances...... 209W Electricity: Prices ...... 295W Armed Forces: Cancer ...... 210W Energy: Heating ...... 295W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 210W Green Climate Fund ...... 295W Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 210W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 296W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 211W Solar Power...... 296W Arms Trade...... 211W Army: Redundancy...... 212W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Defence: Expenditure...... 213W AFFAIRS...... 194W Defence: Procurement...... 213W Aggregates Levy Sustainability Fund...... 194W Departmental Leaseback Arrangements ...... 214W Biodiversity...... 194W Departmental Procurement...... 214W Departmental Procurement...... 196W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 214W Forests ...... 197W Departmental Research...... 214W Natural England ...... 198W Departmental Security ...... 215W Rivers: Closures ...... 200W European Fighter Aircraft ...... 215W Seas and Oceans: Environment Protection...... 200W Gurkhas: Ex-servicemen ...... 216W Sewers: Private Sector ...... 200W Improvised Explosive Devices...... 216W Slaughterhouses ...... 202W Libya...... 217W Slaughterhouses: Standards ...... 203W Marines...... 217W Special Areas of Conservation ...... 203W Military Aircraft ...... 217W Sustainable Development...... 204W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 218W Waste Management...... 204W Military Aircraft: Public Finance...... 218W Water Charges...... 205W Military Bases...... 219W Water Supply ...... 205W National Security Council...... 219W Whales ...... 206W Navy: Military Bases...... 219W Whales: Japan ...... 206W Nimrod Aircraft: Decommissioning...... 220W Royal Fleet Auxiliary ...... 220W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 267W Strategic Defence and Security Review ...... 220W Arms Trade...... 269W Submarines ...... 223W BBC World Service ...... 270W Surveillance...... 224W BBC World Service: India ...... 270W Voluntary Work and Charitable Donations...... 224W British Indian Ocean Territory: Patrol Craft ...... 271W Warships: Repairs and Maintenance...... 225W British Nationals Abroad: Terrorism ...... 271W Camp Ashraf ...... 268W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 207W Colombia ...... 271W Public Bills: Internet ...... 207W Council of Europe ...... 272W Departmental Procurement...... 272W EDUCATION...... 170W Developing Countries: Mining...... 272W Academies...... 170W English Language ...... 273W Children: Disability...... 171W International Labour Organisation: Finance...... 273W Connexions: Finance ...... 171W Iran...... 267W Curriculum ...... 171W Libya: British Nationals Abroad...... 273W Education: Finance...... 173W North Africa ...... 269W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 172W Overseas Trade...... 274W Education Maintenance Allowance: Somerset ...... 172W Overthrown Governments: Asset Freezes...... 268W Employment Schemes: Young People...... 173W Pakistan: Deaths ...... 274W Free Schools...... 174W Syria: Anti-Semitism...... 275W Further Education ...... 174W Tibet: Politics and Government...... 275W Grammar Schools...... 174W Uganda: Elections...... 275W Members: Correspondence ...... 174W UK-Zimbabwe Relations ...... 269W Music: Education...... 175W West Bank...... 269W Postgraduate Education: Finance...... 175W Pre-school Education: Finance ...... 175W HEALTH...... 309W Pupil Numbers: Home Education ...... 176W Arthritis: Health Services...... 309W Pupils: Disadvantaged...... 176W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Health Services ...... 311W Pupils: Per Capita Costs...... 177W Departmental Land ...... 311W Schools: Capital Investment...... 177W Departmental Public Consultation...... 311W Schools: Finance...... 179W Departmental Written Questions ...... 311W Schools: Vocational Guidance...... 180W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 312W Students: Finance ...... 180W Eyesight: Testing...... 312W Teachers: Training...... 181W Food: Packaging ...... 312W Teaching Methods: Peterborough ...... 182W General Practitioners: Pharmacy ...... 313W Vocational Education Review...... 182W Health Centres: Harrow...... 313W Vocational Guidance...... 182W Hospitals: Berkshire...... 313W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued JUSTICE—continued Meals on Wheels...... 314W Victims: Crime ...... 191W Medicine: Research ...... 314W Young Offender Institutions...... 191W Mental Health Services ...... 315W Youth Offending Teams ...... 192W Mental Health Services: Ex-servicemen ...... 316W Mental Illness: Ex-servicemen...... 316W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 164W Musculoskeletal Disorders: Health Services...... 316W Departmental Regulation...... 164W NHS: Finance ...... 317W NHS: Management Consultants ...... 317W PRIME MINISTER ...... 240W Nutrition: Flour...... 317W National Security Council: Manpower...... 240W Obesity: Children ...... 318W Respite Care: Parents ...... 318W PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMISSION ...... 257W Ritalin: Misuse...... 319W Environmental Audit Select Committee ...... 257W Streptococcus: Screening...... 319W Surgery: Waiting Lists...... 320W SCOTLAND...... 163W Urology: Nurses...... 320W Devolution: Scotland ...... 163W Firearms ...... 163W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 226W 101 Calls ...... 226W TRANSPORT ...... 276W Arrests: Brighton ...... 226W A14: Road Traffic ...... 276W Asylum ...... 226W Aviation: Pilots ...... 277W Asylum: Advisory Services...... 227W Aviation: Working Hours...... 277W Asylum: Community Relations ...... 227W Biofuels: EU Law...... 278W Asylum: Scotland...... 228W DLR: Olympic Games 2012...... 279W Avi Benayahu...... 229W Driving Standards Agency: Cardiff...... 279W British Nationality ...... 229W Driving Standards Agency: Finance ...... 280W Departmental Land ...... 230W Driving Tests...... 280W Departmental Procurement...... 230W Great Western Railway: Electrification ...... 280W Departmental Regulation...... 231W Large Goods Vehicles: Tolls...... 281W Departmental Written Questions ...... 231W Lewes-Uckfield Railway Line...... 281W Human Trafficking: Olympic Games 2012 ...... 232W Parking: Pedestrian Areas ...... 281W Identity Cards: Foreign Nationals...... 232W Public Transport: Disability ...... 282W Illegal Immigrants: Taxation...... 233W Railways: Construction...... 282W Immigrants: English Language ...... 233W Railways: Exhaust Emissions ...... 282W Immigration Controls ...... 233W Railways: Finance ...... 283W Immigration Controls: Musicians ...... 234W Roads: Accidents ...... 283W Missing Persons ...... 234W Roads: Publications...... 284W Police: Crime...... 234W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 284W Police: Local Government...... 236W Rolling Stock ...... 285W Students: Visas...... 236W Speed Limits: Schools ...... 285W Vetting ...... 236W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 286W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 164W TREASURY ...... 260W Oral Questions ...... 164W Aggregates Levy: Northern Ireland...... 260W Air Force: Military Bases ...... 261W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 286W Child Tax Credit ...... 261W Afghanistan: Overseas Aid...... 286W Child Trust Fund: Children in Care ...... 261W Democratic Republic of Congo: Overseas Aid...... 287W Departmental Internet ...... 262W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 289W Fiscal Policy...... 262W Developing Countries: Business...... 289W Income Tax: Northern Ireland ...... 262W Developing Countries: International Assistance .... 289W Licensing: Electronic Government ...... 263W Developing Countries: Sustainable Development... 289W Maternity Payments...... 263W Gaza: Economic Situation ...... 290W National Insurance: Tax Credits ...... 263W Iraq: Employment...... 290W Stamp Duty Land Tax ...... 264W Libya: Higher Education...... 291W Tax Avoidance: Northern Ireland ...... 264W Poverty...... 291W Taxation: Banks ...... 265W Taxation: Business ...... 265W JUSTICE...... 183W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 266W Civil Proceedings: Legal Costs ...... 183W Community Orders ...... 183W WALES...... 266W Criminal Injuries Compensation ...... 184W Departmental Land ...... 266W Departmental Land ...... 184W Departmental Regulation...... 266W Disability Living Allowance: Tribunals ...... 184W Employment Tribunals Service...... 186W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 164W Magistrates Courts: Closures ...... 187W Human Trafficking: Females...... 164W Members: Correspondence ...... 187W Offenders: Berkshire ...... 187W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 241W Prison Accommodation ...... 188W Children: Maintenance ...... 241W Prisoners: Finance...... 188W Crisis Loans ...... 242W Prisoners: Gender Recognition ...... 189W Disability ...... 242W Probation: Finance ...... 189W Disability Living Allowance...... 243W Col. No. Col. No. WORK AND PENSIONS—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Disability Living Allowance: Airdrie...... 244W Personal Independence Payment...... 249W Disability Living Allowance: Children ...... 244W Remploy...... 249W Disability Living Allowance: Wolverhampton...... 245W Remploy: Pay...... 251W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 245W Social Security Benefits...... 252W Employment and Support Allowance: Airdrie ...... 245W Social Security Benefits: Autism...... 253W Incapacity Benefits...... 246W Social Security Benefits: Medical Examinations..... 255W Industrial Health and Safety: Prosecutions ...... 246W Social Security Benefits: Older People...... 255W International Labour Organisation ...... 246W Social Security Benefits: Public Expenditure...... 256W Jobcentre Plus: Incapacity Benefits ...... 247W State Retirement Pensions...... 256W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Cancer...... 248W State Retirement Pensions: Livingston ...... 257W Motability...... 249W Work Programme Contracts ...... 257W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 15 March 2011

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 15 March 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 143] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Financial Services (Regulation of Derivatives) [Col. 166] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Steve Baker)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Scotland Bill [Col. 169] Further considered in Committee

Petition [Col. 273]

Operation Ore (Staffordshire) [Col. 274] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Quilliam Foundation [Col. 1WH] NHS (Essex) [Col. 25WH] Richard Lee Primary School [Col. 47WH] New Homes Bonus [Col. 55WH] National Blood Service [Col. 63WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 5WS]

Petition [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 163W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]