Vol. 735 Thursday No. 265 9 February 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions House of Lords: Membership Charles Dickens: Bicentenary West Bank and Gaza Sahel Arrangement of Business Announcement of Recess Dates Local Digital Television Programme Services Order 2012 Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions to OFCOM) Order 2012 Motions to Approve Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (9th Day) Energy: Feed-in Tariffs Statement Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing and Suspicious Betting Question for Short Debate Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (9th Day) (Continued) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

£3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201212/ldhansrd/index/120209.html

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted.

THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage.

© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2012, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 359 House of Lords: Membership[9 FEBRUARY 2012] House of Lords: Membership 360

in the way he mentioned. Does he agree that an House of Lords important question of constitutional principle is at stake here? Thursday, 9 February 2012. Lord Strathclyde: It is good to hear the right reverend 11 am Prelate speak in support of the Cross Benches of which I, too, am a great supporter. That is why I have Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester. consistently opposed the idea of a 100 per cent elected House. Indeed, I am also a supporter of the role of the House of Lords: Membership right reverend Prelates. They make a substantial Question contribution to the workings of the House. I do not think that the proportion of the Cross Benches has 11.06 am changed very much over the course of the past 10 years. We know of the tremendous contribution they make, Asked by Lord Dubs not just in votes in the House but also in making speeches, and I do not think it is planned to change To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they that proportion under the current system. But if a Bill have any plans to increase the current membership is put before Parliament, of course everything will be of the House of Lords, pending their current proposals up for grabs. for reform. Lord Kakkar: My Lords, whose comments better The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord reflect a mature and reasoned understanding of the Strathclyde): My Lords, in line with the coalition’s challenges attending reform of the House of Lords? programme for government, the Government are working Are they those of the president of the Liberal Democrats, towards the objective of creating a second Chamber who has likened your Lordships’ House to the tyrannical that reflects the share of the votes secured by the Syrian regime, or those of their leader, Nick Clegg, political parties at the last general election. who has described your Lordships as an “affront” to liberal democracy? Lord Dubs: Oh. [Laughter.] My Lords, on 24 January, the Leader of the House said: Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it was the former “There is no plan to pack the House with at least 60 government Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who originally coined the supporters. It would look absurd and it would be absurd”.—[Official phrase “an affront to democracy” in relation to the Report, 24/1/12; col. 919.] House of Lords, so my right honourable friend is Given the Answer that he has just given to my Question, certainly not the first to say that. I am not responsible does he agree that it is doubtful whether he could find for what the president of the Liberal Democrats has a single Member of this House who thinks that increasing said, but perhaps he should wander up the corridor its number is a good idea, both on grounds of cost and from the House of Commons and see the real work of making this House look even more absurd than it that is done in this House, not least of all by my does with an increase in numbers? I ask the Government colleagues and friends who represent the Liberal Democrat to think again about this stupid idea. Party here.

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Lord can Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, could my ask whatever he wants, but the Government’s position noble friend help me by explaining the logic of a is the one I outlined in my original Answer. It is up to Government’s policy which seeks to reduce the size of the Prime Minister, as it has been up to previous Prime the House of Commons in order to save public money Ministers, to decide whether he wishes to make more while greatly increasing the size of the unelected House Peers. It is widely known that a draft Bill to reform of Lords? Would I be cynical in thinking that this is an your Lordships’ House is before a Joint Committee attempt to discredit this House in order to justify their that may well turn into a Bill in the next Session of plans for abolition? Parliament. But in any case, since the general election a number of deaths have sadly been recorded among Lord Strathclyde: No, my Lords, my noble friend your Lordships, which means that there has been a would, unusually, be quite wrong in thinking that. The reduction from the high reached earlier on. Even if my plain facts are, first, that the House of Lords has, in its right honourable friend the Prime Minister were to relatively recent past, been considerably larger than it replace the number of Peers who have died, we would currently is and, secondly, that it is widely known and not be at the all-time high we saw recently. understood, which I think allows me to make this point one more time, that the House of Lords is The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, I cannot incredibly good value. The cost per Peer is considerably declare an interest as I speak from the Benches whose smaller than that for Members of the House of Commons number is fixed. However, I would like to ask the or indeed for Members of the European Parliament. Leader of the House to reflect upon what he said about the principle of the balance in relation to the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, since the very important role played by the Cross Benches in election, the coalition Benches have swollen by 71 Peers this House. Their relative influence could be changed —who are very welcome, of course—and my own significantly if the House were to be increased in size Benches have been increased by 39. Does the rumoured 361 House of Lords: Membership[LORDS] Charles Dickens: Bicentenary 362

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] number of our museums such as the V&A—there are rise in the number of coalition Peers have anything to so many that I dare not recite them all in these few do with the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes minutes. in this Session of Parliament? Lord Young of Norwood Green: I thank the Minister Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the fact that the for her reply. I must admit that I was hoping for a Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of more imaginative response from DCMS, but I know Parliament simply indicates that the House of Lords is these are hard times. I did not have great expectations. doing its work extremely well in suggesting changes to I suggest that a Dickens day in schools would not be a our well thought through legislation and asking the bad idea. I, too, pay tribute to the BBC, which has Government and the House of Commons to think given us great value for money recently in both TV again. The fact that the House of Commons does not and radio adaptations. There are also the Royal Mail’s always agree with the wisdom of your Lordships is its commemorative stamps. I was privileged to attend the constitutional right. As for balancing out the numbers, Abbey ceremony. I am not sure that Dickens would it is again a well known fact, which I know noble have thought that particularly appropriate, but I hope Lords opposite do not like, that the Labour Party is the Minister will join me in paying tribute to Dickens’s for the first time ever the largest political group in role, including as a great parliamentary reporter. He opposition in the House of Lords. It does a very reported on the Great Reform Bill of 1831. I am not effective job. The coalition, meanwhile, still makes up sure what he would have thought of the Welfare only 37 per cent of the House. This is not a majoritarian Reform Bill. This would be a bleak House if we did House. not put on record our acknowledgement and tribute Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords— to Dickens as one of our greatest writers.

Lord Cormack: My Lords— Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Youngof Norwood Green, was clever to have put down Baroness Hayman: My Lords— this Question this week in the 200th year of Dickens’s birth. I know that the noble Lord is a Dickens Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, may we aficionado—as we have heard. DCMS is delighted hear now from my noble friend Lord Maclennan? His with any new ideas, especially by examples as inspired is the only party group that has not yet had the as the noble Lord’s suggestions. Of course we join in opportunity to put a question. the tribute to Dickens as a great reporter. Some noble Lords may have read that the Secretary of State gave a Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, since the Dickens novel to each Member of the Cabinet on Government have indicated that their current intention Tuesday. Where possible, the book was linked to their is to reduce the size of this House by about half, does ministerial brief. I thought that was a wonderful idea it follow that those who are to be appointed before and one very close to my heart. that happens are being told that they are being appointed for life, or for a period of years until the Lords’ structure is changed? A noble Lord: Did the Prime Minister get Bleak House? Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I do not know what the noble Lord, Lord Jay, will be telling new Peers Baroness Rawlings: He got Great Expectations.I coming through the Appointments Commission, but urge all noble Lords in the Chamber to consider certainly the Prime Minister is not telling anybody something similar for family and friends. anything. [Laughter.] That is because he is not appointing any Peers just at the moment. A peerage is for life, but it does not necessarily give a right to sit and vote in Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, did the Parliament. That is the difference. noble Lord the Leader of the House get Bleak House?

Charles Dickens: Bicentenary Baroness Rawlings: He did. Question Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, 11.14 am Mr Twemlow in Our Mutual Friend expressed his Asked By Lord Young of Norwood Green opinion that the House of Commons was “the best club in London”. Will my noble friend consider instituting To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans a prize for the best contemporary Dickensian description they have to celebrate the bicentenary of the birth of your Lordships’ House? of Charles Dickens. Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lord Brooke Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, Her Majesty’s always comes up with original ideas. I am sure that Government are always delighted to fund and support everything will be fed in to the department. different institutions and events celebrating the life and work of Charles Dickens, not only in this bicentenary year but at any time. This year includes special The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, which Member programmes with the BBC, the British Council and a of the Cabinet got A Tale of Two Cities? 363 Charles Dickens: Bicentenary[9 FEBRUARY 2012] West Bank and Gaza 364

Baroness Rawlings: I am afraid that I do not know. West Bank and Gaza Question Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: My Lords, Dickens referred to this House when he was a reporter 11.21 am here as, Asked By Lord Judd “a conglomeration of noise and confusion”. It probably continues to be so. As Matthew Parris To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their wrote, the culture of our country is its heartbeat. Who evaluation of progress towards a reconciliation between more exemplifies that than Charles Dickens? Can the the leaderships of the Palestinian communities of Minister confirm that the cultural education review the West Bank and Gaza, and what action they are due to be published this month will call for a national taking to support that reconciliation. plan for cultural education and that the coalition Government will celebrate Dickens’s bicentenary by putting into practice the teaching of creativity at the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth heart of the educational curriculum? Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, we are examining closely the agreement of 6 February between Hamas and Fatah on what is described as a technocratic Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, my noble friend Government of consensus. It is important that any Lady Bonham-Carter brings up a very good point. We new Palestinian authority be composed of independent are committed to encouraging wider reading. I am figures, commit itself to non-violence and a negotiated sure that we will include in the culture education two-state solution and accept previous agreements of review that is about to come out the various points the PLO. We have been consistently clear that we will that she brought up. The Secretary of State for Education engage with any Palestinian Government who show has talked frequently about the importance of encouraging through their words and actions that they are committed children to read books. It is often said that those who to those principles. read well-written books usually achieve better standards. Dare I quote from Dickens, as everyone has done? Lord Judd: Would the Minister not agree that the “No one who can read, ever looks at a book, even unopened on a shelf, like one who cannot”. action by Israelis in arresting so many politicians from Gaza is hardly helpful to the process? As we ThatisfromOur Mutual Friend. debated last night, we all have to be careful about counterproductivity, which makes the achievement of Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall: My Lords, would serious negotiations more difficult. Is it not therefore the Minister agree with me that the film and television essential to bring home to our American colleagues—and, industries, which have developed in the past 100 years, indeed, very much to Israel—that if we are serious would have been pretty stuck for content, had it not about negotiations, nothing must be done to undermine been for the works of Charles Dickens? Would she the momentum that will be necessary, and too many encourage her ministerial colleagues to put some pressure preconditions will not help. The best commitments, as on BAFTA to nominate Charles Dickens for a we saw in Northern Ireland, arise out of the process of posthumous fellowship? negotiations in which common agreement is forged through argument and persuasion.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I am sure that that is a good idea, but I have a feeling that BAFTA is Lord Howell of Guildford: Yes, to the noble Lord’s probably an independent body. We will put that forward, second observation. As to his first, about arresting and hope that BAFTA reads the noble Baroness’s MPs, we are concerned about the recent arrests of the suggestion in Hansard. Speaker and other Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. EU heads of mission in Jerusalem and Ramallah issued a Lord Harrison: My Lords— statement on 28 January outlining their concern. We have also instructed our embassy in Tel Aviv to raise this with the Israeli authorities, and we continue to Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, does the Minister monitor that situation closely. It is a matter of concern. recall that I raised the issue with her a few weeks ago that, in this Diamond Jubilee year, it would be appropriate for a gift of a Dickens novel to be given to children Baroness Deech: Is the Minister aware—I am sure throughout the country? When I subsequently wrote he is—that this is the third Question that we have had to her and had a brief conversation, she said that she on Gaza in 24 hours without being able to place this would look at ways of trying to promote private issue in context and without examining the connection sponsorship of such a project. Has she been able to of Hamas to Iran—and to Syria, where such terrible make any progress in that regard? things are happening? The House has not had the chance to see this in context; we have not debated the shifting allegiances in the Middle East and the Baroness Rawlings: I have not actually heard back terrible crises. It is no good scratching at one spot recently from DCMS on that very interesting suggestion, when the whole body in the Middle East needs but I will write to the noble Lord on it. examination by this House, and soon. 365 West Bank and Gaza[LORDS] Sahel 366

Lord Howell of Guildford: I am acutely aware that Does he agree that in this context it is really important we have dealt with this particular issue three times in to do everything possible to encourage rather than the last 24 hours, including a very interesting but short diminish confidence in the democratic process, particularly debate last night. I think it was President Obama who among the Palestinians, and that this is closely linked said that his advisers told that him that when it comes to the willingness of the international community to to the Middle East, everything is connected to everything recognise and uphold the outcomes of such a democratic else. The noble Baroness is quite right that we need to process? look again and again not merely at the particular issues that we are examining now but at the broader Lord Howell of Guildford: The right reverend Prelate context of how the Iranian threat, the tragedy in speaks with great wisdom. This is obviously the aim; it Syria, the instability in Iraq and the problems of the is certainly the aim of the United Kingdom. We make Arab uprising and the Arab spring all link together, as our contribution through a variety of ways: obviously they do. I am sure that noble Lords and the usual through the EU and the quartet, bilaterally and in channels will think of ways in which we can have a every other way. However, the principles he describes further debate on that broader issue. I am very happy are right and will have to be upheld with great vigour, to participate at any time when I am required. because clearly there are people operating in the whole turmoil and mélange of the Middle East uprisings Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, does the who are not so interested in democracy. These people Minister agree that, as my noble friend Lord Judd have to be outfaced. mentioned in connection with Northern Ireland, a sine qua non for sitting down and starting real negotiations Lord Grocott: The Minister said in answer to an is the renunciation of violence by all the participants? earlier Question that our attitude towards any arrangement between Gaza and the West Bank would be whether Lord Howell of Guildford: That is certainly correct. the Administration could be seen, in deeds and not Indeed, as I said in my opening Answer, that is one of just in words, committed to a two-state solution. Can the conditions in which we would recognise that if he offer any evidence whatever that, on the other side Hamas has changed by renouncing violence, and a of the equation, the Israeli Government are in any way new Government are formed, we would change our showing by deeds, not words, their commitment to a attitude to it. However, these conditions are important two-state solution? and we obviously cannot negotiate unless they are accepted. Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is quite right to point out the need for symmetry. When one Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, to follow up sees that illegal settlements continue, there is obviously the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, is a danger if not of despair then of recognising that the not the context in which Palestine now exists—one goal of the two-state solution is not as fully accepted thinks of the forthcoming elections in a few months—that on the Israeli side. We must work to change that. Israel is in military occupation of a large part of the Many people, in Israel and outside, see that a solution West Bank, is continuing to colonise the West Bank lies in this direction for better peace and stability for and east Jerusalem at an alarming rate, and is attempting the people of Israel, for an end to their security always to divide and rule the Palestinians by every problems and, of course, for better peace and stability possible means? What will we do about it? for the Palestinians.

Lord Howell of Guildford: I am not sure that I share every nuance of my noble friend’s analysis, but it is Sahel certainly not in Israel’s interest to practise manoeuvres Question to undermine and delay the negotiations by the divide- and-rule process. We now have to watch what is going 11.30 am to happen next, to see whether this Government of Asked By Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale consensus will work—we will judge them by their deeds—and to see how the pressure of enlightened To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Israelis, both in their Government and internationally, they will take to help prevent the famine and food can bring them to realise that they will then have a shortages predicted in the Sahel region. body with whom to negotiate. We also have to see how the talks now going on in Amman, in Jordan, progress. We are putting a great deal of effort, as are other Baroness Northover: My Lords, the rapid response countries, into seeing that progress is made there. of UK humanitarian aid to mitigate the impact of the crisis in the Sahel will reach 68,000 children in Niger, Chad and Mali, and provide livestock support for The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, the Minister 30,000 families. The Government are also lobbying has already rightly recognised the interconnectedness other donors to provide funds to help ward off a of everything in the Middle East. I have this morning disaster. had an e-mail from the Bishop in Egypt, who writes: “Egypt is undergoing a very … difficult time. It looks as if the country is experiencing labor pains which may end up by the birth Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale: I thank the of a new baby, a new democratic Egypt. But it could … be the Minister for her Answer. The European Union said pains prior to a stillbirth, or an abortion”. yesterday that alarm bells are ringing in this area, with 367 Sahel[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Arrangement of Business 368

12 million people potentially affected by food shortages well as food shortages. The displacement of people and five countries having already declared an emergency, from Libya, as I just mentioned, and problems spilling including four of the poorest countries in the world. over from Nigeria contribute to this problem. I am Just last month Oxfam and Save the Children reported pleased to say that the EU is very much taking a lead on the recent famine in east Africa. In their report in this area. The meeting yesterday shows that there is they said that it was important to manage the risks, a lot to be done but there are encouraging signs that not the crisis, and to pre-empt famine more quickly actions are being taken. rather than react afterwards. Have the Government learnt some of those lessons, and will they lobby Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, the Minister internationally for action to ensure that the international has acknowledged that the struggling countries of the community reacts more quickly in this case than it did Sahel are now facing the fallout from the crisis in in the east over the past 18 months? Libya. Hundreds of thousands of migrants have returned from Libya; communities have lost the income from Baroness Northover: The international community remittances on which they depended; and huge caches is, I think, indeed learning these extremely important of very sophisticated weapons, which were previously lessons about acting quickly. The severity of the problem in the Libyan arsenal, are now flowing into the Sahel is recognised and the early warning systems that were in the hands of ex-combatants. Would the Minister in place have picked up the absolute necessity of clearly outline the involvement of the UK, together acting rapidly to try to deal with this crisis. The early with the EU and, very importantly, with the UN and mobilisation of funds is happening and it is encouraging regional bodies, in the efforts that need to be made to to see that shift, although we should not be complacent. deal with this growing humanitarian and security problem?

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, does my noble Baroness Northover: This is currently very high on friend agree that that region is, unfortunately, becoming the UK’s agenda and those of the EU and the UN. an extremely dangerous area? It includes mercenary There will shortly be a debate on this in the UN, as the elements who worked for Colonel Gaddafi and are noble Baroness probably knows. I spoke to relevant now operating in the region. Significant elements of officials this morning and I can assure the noble al-Qaeda and associated bodies may have moved to Baroness that they are acutely aware of the problem of the region, and the very serious terrorist attacks in the weapons there. As she says, people have come back northern Nigeria are not unconnected with some of who are no longer sending remittances home and the problems there. Is the African Union considering themselves need to be supported. how it will tackle the humanitarian situation? The security issues there are critical. Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, the Minister has given the House the welcome news that the British Baroness Northover: The noble Lord is right: the Government are providing 68,000 children with food fighting in the region has been exacerbated by the aid. Did she see UNICEF’s report last week, which cash, weapons and soldiers that have come from Libya said that 1 million children in the Sahel region are at following the fall of Gaddafi, overlaying this humanitarian risk of immediate malnutrition? How are we directing crisis and making it much more dangerous for people our aid, particularly towards the children who are at to be working in the area. It is therefore extremely risk at this time? important, as the United Nations analysed recently, that a vacuum is not created for others to come into. Baroness Northover: UNICEF is supported by DfID, The international community is acutely aware of that as the noble Lord knows. As I mentioned, the United and the AU is being given technical support. Kingdom is working bilaterally but it is also working multilaterally through the EU and a number of NGOs, Lord Avebury: My Lords, what response has there and is acutely aware that there are 1 million children been to the appeal by the International Development at risk. Secretary to take steps in addition to those that have already been taken by the Government of this country Arrangement of Business and by the European Union to avert the possibility Announcement of Recess Dates that 6.8 million people in the Sahel may starve? Are any steps being taken by the international community to bring to an end the conflict in northern Mali that 11.37 am has led to the displacement of some 50,000 people in Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, my right an area where, according to the ICRC, there is a threat honourable friend the Leader of the House of Commons of a major crisis of food availability after a very poor is making a Statement on the sittings of the other rainy season? place up to their return in January 2013. It may be for the convenience of the House if I now do the same. Baroness Northover: The international community The House already has the recess dates up to and is acutely aware of all the problems right across the including our return from the Summer Recess on region. One of the lessons from west Africa has been, 8 October. Naturally, those dates remain subject to the as the crises that have happened there and across the progress of business, but I should like to reconfirm my region generally have shown, that you have to pick up earlier intention that, all being well, the House will not the early warning signs of increasing food prices as sit in September 2012. I hope to provide a long weekend 369 Arrangement of Business[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 370

[BARONESS ANELAY OF ST JOHNS] (4) In the event of the prosecution wishing to exercise the right this November. We will probably rise at the end of of appeal under subsection (1), it must give oral notice of appeal business on Wednesday 14 November and return on to the Crown Court at the conclusion of the proceedings in which such bail has been granted and before the release from custody of Monday 19 November. We will rise for Christmas at the person concerned. the end of business on Thursday 20 December and (5) Written notice of appeal shall thereafter be served on the return on Tuesday 8 January 2013. I hope the House Crown Court and the person concerned within two hours of the will accept that this is something of a long-range conclusion of such proceedings. forecast. I stress, as ever on these occasions, that all (6) Upon receipt from the prosecution of oral notice of appeal these dates are subject to the progress of business. from its decision to grant bail, the Crown Court shall remand in custody the person concerned until the appeal is determined or otherwise disposed of. Local Digital Television Programme (7) Where the prosecution fails within the period of two hours Services Order 2012 mentioned in subsection (5) to serve one or both of the notices in accordance with that subsection the appeal shall be deemed to have been disposed of. Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions (8) The hearing of an appeal against a decision of the Crown Court to grant bail under subsection (1) shall be commenced to OFCOM) Order 2012 within forty-eight hours, excluding weekends and any public Motions to Approve holiday (that is to say Christmas Day, Good Friday or a Bank Holiday) from the date on which oral notice of appeal is given. 11.38 am (9) The judge hearing an appeal under this section shall be privy to any earlier evidence and may, at the conclusion of the Moved By Baroness Rawlings hearing— That the draft orders laid before the House on (a) remand the person concerned in custody; or 15 December 2011 be approved. (b) grant bail, subject to any conditions, as he or she sees fit.”.” Relevant document: 37th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 6 February. Lord Beecham: My Lords, every so often—

Motions agreed. Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is making a very diplomatic hesitation before moving an amendment that I know is Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of not only of importance here but will be taken account Offenders Bill of outside this House. Committee (9th Day) Lord Beecham: My Lords, every so often a tragic 11.39 am incident occurs which leads to a change in social Relevant documents: 21st Report from the policy or, indeed, a change in legislation. One thinks Constitution Committee, 22nd Report from the Joint of the cases of Stephen Lawrence, Jamie Bulger, Victoria Committee on Human Rights, 21st and 22nd Reports Climbié and Milly Dowler and, as your Lordships from the Delegated Powers Committee. may recall when we were discussing amendments in relation to alcohol and offences the other night, the murder of the husband of a Member of your Lordships’ Amendment 178 House—the noble Baroness, Lady Newlove. Moved by Lord Beecham This amendment and the government amendment arise from the brutal murder of Jane Clough, a 26 year- 178: After Clause 83, insert the following new Clause— old nurse and mother of a baby daughter, by the “Right to appeal bail decisions partner with whom she was living who had been charged (1) The Bail (Amendment) Act 1993 is amended as follows. with very grave sexual offences. The partner was granted (2) After section 1 insert— bail in the magistrates’ court and the brutal murder “1A Appeal against a bail decision occurred shortly thereafter. This morning I have had (1) The prosecution may appeal to a judge of the High Court the humbling privilege of meeting Jane’s parents—John against the decision of a Crown Court to grant bail in a case and Penny Clough. I salute the dignity and courage where a person is charged with or convicted of an offence triable with which they are not only bearing the loss of a on indictment. beloved daughter in the most appalling circumstances (2) Subsection (1) applies where the prosecution is conducted— but the way they have campaigned, with support from (a) by or on behalf of the Director of Public Prosecutions; a wide range of individuals and organisations and or across party, for a change in the law to allow an appeal (b) by a person who falls within a class or description of against the granting of bail. I know that they would person as prescribed in regulations made under this wish for an expression of thanks to be made to all section. those who have supported them in this campaign, in (3) An appeal under subsection (1) may only be made where— particular to Vera Baird, the former Solicitor-General, (a) the prosecution made representations that bail should and to Members of Parliament in the other place, not be granted; and notably Helen Goodman and Jenny Chapman. Penny (b) the representations were made before it was granted. and John are sitting today below Bar in your Lordships’ 371 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 372

House. They came the other night but, unfortunately, in the Bail (Amendment) Act 1993, which currently we did not reach this amendment at that time. They provides for a right of appeal against bail granted by a have stayed on in order to see effectively the culmination magistrates’ court. That appeal is to the Crown Court. not only of their pain but also of their campaign. Under Amendment 178ZZA, the avenue of appeal Irrespective of whether bail is granted in a magistrates’ against a Crown Court decision would be to the High court or in a higher court, there will never be any Court. guarantee that the person granted bail will not commit As we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, an offence. However, these amendments seek to ensure this is a matter that has been the subject of a campaign that in the appropriate cases the prosecution, knowing by Jane’s parents following the release on bail of of the circumstances which gave rise to the charges in Jonathan Vass by the Crown Court, despite representations the first place, can at the very least take the matter to a from the Crown Prosecution Service. We considered higher court for determination, and offer a perhaps this matter very carefully. We took account, on the one better prospect of avoiding a repetition of this dreadful hand, of the fact that a right of appeal would necessarily incident or any incident like it. In approving a change impose an additional burden on the High Court. On in the law—I say immediately that I very much welcome the other hand, there was strong support for change in the Government’s amendment and am happy to withdraw the other place, as we have heard, and the Director of my amendment in favour of it—we should be able Public Prosecutions has made it clear that he too is in to demonstrate the capacity of Parliament to react to favour of such a change in our law. issues of this kind and to encourage others, perhaps facing different circumstances but where a change in Our conclusion was that without calling into question the law might be needed, to follow the wonderful the correctness of decisions made by Crown Court example of Jane’s parents, Penny and John, in ensuring judges in the vast majority of cases, it is not right that that a change in the law is made. I said to them that if such decisions should be beyond challenge. We are this House were given to standing ovations, they would persuaded of the case for changing the law in order to be greeted with such an ovation today. Our hearts, our ensure that victims and their families, and the public at sympathies, but more particularly and perhaps more large, are protected. relevantly, our legislative endeavours go towards them The effect of the provision will be that the decision today in meeting their objectives. to appeal must be made immediately, before the defendant has been released, and as the defendant would be held Lord Clinton-Davis: Is there any possibility of any in custody pending the appeal, the appeal must be action being taken after the judge has considered the heard very quickly. Listing cases at such short notice point? In other words, would the prosecution be able before a High Court judge clearly has resource to take the matter further? implications, and it is important that the right of appeal should be used sparingly. This will be recognised Lord Beecham: I do not think that the amendment in the guidance that the Director of Public Prosecutions allows for that, but that is a matter that perhaps might will issue to his staff, which will require a decision to be considered. It is adequate that the Crown Court appeal to be approved at a senior level. should be able to deal with these matters. The most notable difference between our Amendment However, leaving that technicality aside, perhaps I 178ZZA and Amendment 178 moved by the noble may, on behalf of your Lordships’ House, extend our Lord, Lord Beecham—I am grateful that he intends to very best wishes to the whole family of Penny and withdraw it—is that ours is shorter and does not John because their daughter is seeking to adopt the permit an appeal against a decision by the Crown grandchild, and all of them deserve our best wishes Court to grant bail where it was itself made on appeal and, indeed, our thanks. from the grant of bail by a magistrates’ court. So if a I intend to withdraw the amendment. defendant was granted bail by the magistrates, the prosecution appealed and the Crown Court granted 11.45 am bail, the prosecution would not be able to appeal further. This is to stop a continuing series of appeals The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord on a matter that by then would have been considered McNally): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, by two courts. I therefore commend Amendments 178ZZA has already outraged the protocol of this House by and 178ZZB to your Lordships’ House. recognising people present beyond the Bar, but I do not think that he will be taken away to the Tower for It is my responsibility as the Minister to put on the that breach because it is good that Members of the record the technicalities; hence, some of my remarks House are aware that Jane’s parents are present to see may seem gobbledegook to those not in the Chamber. us in action. I am afraid that the other night they had However, I can assure the House that what the the experience of seeing the Lords in action that Government are doing, supported by Her Majesty’s delayed this debate, but it is such an important matter Opposition and, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for them, their family and the wider public that we made clear, supported firmly by the other place, is have this debate today. I sincerely hope that within a approving Jane’s law. few minutes they will see Jane’s law passed by this House. Lord Beecham: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 178ZZA creates a right of appeal for the amendment. the prosecution against a Crown Court decision to grant bail. It does so by extending the existing powers Amendment 178 withdrawn. 373 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 374

Schedule 11: Amendment of enactments relating (4) The third condition is that the court is satisfied that the to bail necessary provision for dealing with the child or young person concerned can be made under arrangements for the electronic monitoring of persons released on bail that are currently available Amendment 178ZZZA in each local justice area which is a relevant area. (5) The fourth condition is that a youth offending team has Moved by Lord McNally informed the court that in its opinion the imposition of electronic monitoring requirements will be suitable in the case of the child 178ZZZA: Schedule 11, Page 193, line 34, after “enactment,”” or young person. insert “; (6) The references in subsection (3)(b) to an imprisonable ““imprisonable offence” means an offence punishable in the offence include a reference to an offence— case of an adult with imprisonment,”; (a) of which the child or young person has been accused or ““sexual offence” means an offence specified in Part 2 of convicted outside the United Kingdom, and Schedule 15 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003,”; ““violent offence” means murder or an offence specified in (b) which is equivalent to an offence that is punishable with Part 1 of Schedule 15 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003,”” imprisonment in the United Kingdom. (7) The reference in subsection (3)(b) to a child or young person being subject to a custodial remand are to the child or Lord McNally: My Lords, these are technical young person being— government amendments. I beg to move. (a) remanded to local authority accommodation or youth Amendment 178ZZZA agreed. detention accommodation under section 84 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, (b) remanded to local authority accommodation under Amendments 178ZZZB to 178ZZB section 23 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969, or Moved by Lord McNally (c) subject to a form of custodial detention in a country or 178ZZZB: Schedule 11, page 194, leave out lines 1 and 2 and territory outside the United Kingdom while awaiting insert— trial or sentence in that country or territory or during a “(1) Section 3 (general provisions) is amended as follows. trial in that country or territory.” (2) In subsection (6ZAA), for “person),” substitute “person 178ZZZD: Schedule 11, Page 194, line 13, at end insert— granted bail in criminal proceedings of the kind mentioned in “4A In section 3AC (electronic monitoring: general provisions) section 1(1)(a) or (b)), section 3AAA (in the case of a child or in each of subsections (7) and (8) after “3AA”insert “, 3AAA”.” young person granted bail in connection with extradition proceedings),”. 178ZZA: Schedule 11, page 198, line 4, at end insert— “Bail (Amendment) Act 1993 (c. 26) (3) In subsection (7)—” 28A (1) Section 1 of the Bail (Amendment) Act 1993 (prosecution 178ZZZC: Schedule 11, Page 194, line 9, at end insert— right of appeal where bail is granted) is amended as follows. “3A (1) Section 3AA (conditions for the imposition of electronic (2) After subsection (1A) insert— monitoring requirements: children and young persons) is amended “(1B) Where a judge of the Crown Court grants bail to a as follows. person who is charged with, or convicted of, an offence punishable (2) In the heading after “young persons” insert “released on by imprisonment, the prosecution may appeal to the High Court bail other than in extradition proceedings”. against the granting of bail. (3) In subsection (1) (conditions for the imposition of electronic (1C) An appeal under subsection (1B) may not be made where monitoring conditions: children and young persons) after “young a judge of the Crown Court has granted bail on an appeal under person” insert “released on bail in criminal proceedings of the subsection (1).” kind mentioned in section 1(1)(a) or (b)”.” (3) In subsection (2) for “Subsection (1) above applies”substitute 3B After section 3AA insert— “Subsections (1) and (1B) above apply”. “3AAA Conditions for the imposition of electronic monitoring (4) In subsections (3), (4) and (8) for “or (1A)” substitute “, requirements: children and young persons released on bail in (1A) or (1B)”. extradition proceedings (5) In subsection (10)(a)— (1) A court may not impose electronic monitoring requirements (a) for “reference in subsection (1)” substitute “references in on a child or young person released on bail in connection with subsections (1) and (1B)”, and extradition proceedings unless each of the following conditions is met. (b) for “is to be read as a reference” substitute “are to be (2) The first condition is that the child or young person has read as references”.” attained the age of twelve years. 178ZZB: Schedule 11, page 198, line 14, at end insert— (3) The second condition is that— “30A In section 200 of the Extradition Act 2003 (amendments (a) the conduct constituting the offence to which the to section 1 of the Bail (Amendment) Act 1993) omit subsections extradition proceedings relate, or one or more of those (4)(a) and (7)(a).” offences, would, if committed in the United Kingdom, constitute a violent or sexual offence or an offence Amendments 178ZZZB to 178ZZB agreed. punishable in the case of an adult with imprisonment for a term of fourteen years or more, or Schedule 11, as amended, agreed. (b) the offence or offences to which the extradition proceedings relate, together with any other imprisonable Clauses 84 and 85 agreed. offences of which the child or young person has been convicted in any proceedings— Clause 86: Conditions etc on remands to local (i) amount, or authority accommodation (ii) would, if the child or young person were convicted of that offence or those offences, amount, Amendment 178ZA not moved. to a recent history of committing imprisonable offences while on bail or subject to a custodial remand. Clause 86 agreed. 375 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 376

Clause 87: Requirements for electronic monitoring with younger offenders. The amendment seeks to raise the minimum age for electronic monitoring from 12 to 14, with the same age condition for remand to youth Amendment 178ZZAZA detention, to which my Amendments 178ZAA to 178ZAD Moved by Lord Ramsbotham refer. I beg to move. 178ZZAZA: Clause 87, Page 66, line 12, leave out “twelve” and insert “fourteen” Lord Beecham: My Lords, it is certainly desirable that electronic monitoring should be used very sparingly but there may well be cases in which even a 12 or 13 year- Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, in speaking to the old has exhibited behaviour which requires—I say amendment and Amendments 178ZAA, 178ZAB, with some reluctance—monitoring of this kind. Therefore, 178ZAC and178ZAD, I must state my strong support I am afraid that the Opposition cannot support the for the reforms implicit in Clauses 91 to 94, which amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. place two clear sets of conditions on a court before a child can be remanded in custody. I say that because, However, I have a question in relation to Amendment at present, one-third of all children remanded to youth 178ZAD, which concerns extradition cases. I should detention accommodation do not go on to receive a like an assurance that, if the country requesting extradition custodial sentence. I also support the simplified single does not itself apply electronic monitoring to the age remand order, which addresses the anomaly of 17 year- group in question, such cases will not attract that olds being remanded in adult accommodation. procedure in this country. It would seem anomalous if we were to go further than the country seeking extradition I turn to Amendment 178ZZAZA. Our debate on in applying electronic monitoring to those cases. Perhaps Tuesday on Clause 75 concerning the proposed increase the noble Baroness could deal with that. If she cannot in curfew hours is linked to Clauses 87 to 89, to which do so today, perhaps she could write to me accordingly. the amendment refers, because electronic monitoring of children is part of their curfew regime. Clause 87(2) states: Noon “The first requirement is that the child has reached the age of twelve”, Baroness Northover: My Lords, we understand the intention behind the amendments of the noble Lord, before he or she may be electronically monitored. I Lord Ramsbotham, and are very sympathetic to his and the Prison Reform Trust—for whose admirable concern for children and young people. The welfare of briefing on this and many other issues I and, I am sure, a child or young person securely remanded is clearly many other noble Lords are extremely grateful—contend very important. Extending looked-after child status to that 12 is too young. all those under 18 who are securely remanded, as we Research suggests that, particularly if the longer are doing in Clause 97, proves our commitment to periods that were so deplored around the Committee that. on Tuesday are adopted, many children aged 12 are However, the Government believe that the current likely to find compliance with electronic monitoring age threshold for secure remand of a child should too onerous due to developmental immaturity, learning remain at 12. Serious offences are sometimes committed difficulties, learning disabilities or other mental health by 12 and 13 year-olds. They present such a risk of and communication problems, contributing to a lack harm that the court may come to the decision that a of understanding of the consequences of their actions. remand to secure accommodation is necessary to protect This is borne out by the breach figures, which show the public. We do not think that this decision is one that one in six children aged 10 to 14 in custody had that local authorities should be making, which would been imprisoned for breach of a curfew order. be the only alternative. It is not fair to impose this As was mentioned on Tuesday, Home Office research burden of responsibility on local authorities. published in 2005 raised concerns that electronic Amendment 178ZZAZA, however, raises quite monitoring can also prevent children participating in different issues. It is inconsistent as between non- legitimate activities, thus increasing the likelihood of extradition and extradition proceedings. The noble breach. I am aware that in Committee in another place Lord, Lord Beecham, has flagged up some of those the Minister, Crispin Blunt, said in rejecting a similar inconsistencies. In the former, the age threshold for amendment: electronic monitoring of children remanded to non-secure “By removing the power of the court to use electronic monitoring local authority accommodation would be raised from with 12 and 13-year-olds, the amendments would push courts to 12 to 14 years. In extradition cases it would remain at remand more young children in secure accommodation … contrary to the policy underlying the provisions, which are aimed at 12 years of age. A similar inconsistency would arise reducing the use of secure remands of children and promoting depending on whether the child or young person is greater community provision”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal on bail or remanded to non-secure local authority Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee, accommodation. The age threshold is currently set at 11/10/11; col. 709.] 12 years in both circumstances, but this amendment With respect, I think he missed the point that was would raise the threshold to 14 years in respect of being made, which was that removing the power to remands to non-secure local authority accommodation electronically monitor would encourage positive only. Furthermore, by removing the power of the engagement. From personal experience, I know that court to use electronic monitoring in respect of 12 and better outcomes result from positive engagement than 13 year-olds, the amendment could have the effect from the imposition of onerous conditions, particularly of more young children being remanded in secure 377 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 378

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] Clause 88 : Requirements for electronic monitoring: accommodation. The availability of electronic monitoring extradition cases can be the deciding factor in a court giving bail to a young offender. Youngerchildren are more likely to have risk factors Amendment 178ZAZA that can be managed in the community with appropriate Moved by Lord McNally conditions and electronic monitoring to ensure 178ZAZA: Clause 88, Page 67, line 38, leave out from beginning compliance. Removing the power to monitor electronically to “of” children under the age of 14 would create a gap in the powers of the court to manage properly some children aged 12 and 13 who, regrettably, engage in serious Lord McNally: My Lords, this is a technical criminal behaviour. Such monitoring is an essential amendment. I beg to move. tool for ensuring the compliance of children who do not meet the test for a secure remand but who nevertheless pose a risk of further offending. This risk is best met Lord Beecham: It would appear that I am in some with a remand to local authority accommodation danger of becoming a repeat offender when it comes subject to curfew. to breaching protocol. I apologise to the House. In terms of extradition, we are making provision My only concern about the technical amendments for a hypothetical position in respect of a child subject in this group is the insertion in Amendment 178ZAZB to extradition proceedings. This will ensure fair treatment. of the word “accused” before the word “charged”. I I therefore urge the noble Lord to withdraw his appreciate that it is intended to correct what was amendment. described as an accidental gap in replicating earlier provisions, but it concerns me that we may apply Baroness Whitaker: I apologise for not being here at electronic monitoring to people who have not been the start of the debate. Has the Minister’s department charged but merely accused of an offence in another carried out any research into the influence of the peer jurisdiction. I wonder whether it is the right approach. group on young offenders aged from 12 to 14? There Perhaps the noble Lord will want to think further on can be very sympathetic officials in the institutions that. It strikes me as a little odd, in the same way as the which hold these young people but the problem is that previous matter we discussed struck me as odd. I may they get influenced, if not abused, by most unwholesome be entirely wrong but it seems to jar with the notion characters. I draw on rather out-of-date experience as that a simple accusation would suffice to allow somebody a magistrate, but that was always a concern. If the to undergo electronic monitoring. Minister does not have the information now perhaps she could write. Lord McNally: My Lords, one of the uses of Baroness Northover: I am happy to write to the Committee is to allow noble Lords to scrutinise and to noble Baroness. Of course she is absolutely right. We seek clarification. The noble Lord’s point is not covered know very well that the influence of peer groups is a in my notes. The amendments in this group are intended very important issue. to be minor and technical. They set out a requirement Lord Beecham: I thank the noble Baroness for the for electronic monitoring in extradition cases that is information that was conveyed to her from the Box but consistent with its use under the Extradition Act 2003. it does not quite reach the point that I was making. Clause 88 is intended to create a test that is equivalent The point was that if the country to which the child is to that in Clause 87 which applies to young people being extradited does not apply electronic monitoring, who are charged with or convicted of an offence. should we be doing it? That was my question, but I am “Accused” is the word used in the Extradition Act. If not asking for an answer now. we did not change the wording of the Bill to match, we would create a lacuna whereby the courts would have Baroness Northover: I am very happy to write to the only limited remand powers over an individual who noble Lord on that point. was being extradited before being charged. I will clarify Lord Ramsbotham: I am grateful to the Minister for the noble Lord’s point about the use of electronic her reply and grateful too for the intervention from the tagging and write to him. noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I said at the beginning that I am glad Amendment 178ZAZA agreed. to see the reforms that are implicit already in Clauses 91 to 94 but, as I am sure the noble Baroness realises, there is disquiet over the use of electronic monitoring Amendments 178ZAZB to 178ZAZE for extended periods, particularly for young people. I Moved by Lord McNally suspect that this will return on Report, if not with my amendment then in connection with Clause 75, which 178ZAZB: Clause 88, Page 67, line 38, after second “been” was discussed on Tuesday. I am grateful that obviously insert “accused or” work has been done to produce the answers to these 178ZAZC: Clause 88, Page 68, line 1, after “country” insert probing amendments. In that spirit and with gratitude “or territory” to the Minister I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. 178ZAZD: Clause 88, Page 68, line 2, after “country” insert Amendment 178ZZAZA withdrawn. “or territory” 178ZAZE: Clause 88, Page 68, line 3, after “country” insert Clause 87 agreed. “or territory” 379 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 380

Amendments 178ZAZB to 178ZAZE agreed. predominately to the functions of the Secretary of State and the Youth Justice Board and are set out in Clause 88, as amended, agreed. Clauses 95, 96 and 97. Amendment 178ZAE expands the definition of youth Clauses 89 and 90 agreed. detention accommodation currently set out at Clause 95(2) to include any new form of youth detention Clause 91 : First set of conditions for a remand to accommodation specified by the Secretary of State youth detention accommodation under Section 107(1)(e) of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000. In recent years we have Amendment 178ZAA not moved. seen a significant reduction in the number of young people sentenced to custody. Although the number of Clause 91 agreed. those remanded has not shown the same reduction, we believe that the remand proposals contained within Chapter 3 have the potential to bring about a fall in Clause 92 : Second set of conditions for a remand to the level of secure remand to youth detention youth detention accommodation accommodation also. If this occurs, and demand on the secure estate continues to fall, this may provide Amendment 178ZAB not moved. further opportunities to plan and pilot new forms of youth detention accommodation. Such accommodation would be developed with the aim of improving outcomes Amendment 178ZABA for children and young people, and this amendment Moved by Lord McNally would allow it to be used to accommodate remanded young people as well as those who are detained post- 178ZABA: Clause 92, page 71, line 16, leave out from second “sentence” to end of line 25 and insert “or order mentioned in sentence. section 76(1) of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act Amendment 178ZBC extends the power in Clause 96 2000.” that gives the Secretary of State the power to make arrangements with providers of secure children’s homes Amendment 178ZABA agreed. to accommodate remanded young people so that the Secretary of State may also make such arrangements Clause 92, as amended, agreed. for the use of newly specified types of accommodation. Amendments 178ZBA and 178ZBE provide for the Clause 93 : First set of conditions for a remand to Secretary of State’s functions in Clauses 95 and 96 to youth detention accommodation: extradition cases be exercisable concurrently with the Youth Justice Board. That is, both the Secretary of State and the Amendment 178ZAC not moved. YJB may exercise the power. They also allow the Secretary of State by order to provide that these Clause 93 agreed. functions should be exercisable solely by him or her. This order-making power is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, as set out in Amendment 178ZBG. Clause 94 : Second set of conditions for a remand to youth detention accommodation: extradition cases In tabling these substantive amendments, the Government have responded to Parliament’s decision Amendment 178ZAD not moved. not to abolish the YouthJustice Board. These amendments ensure that the Youth Justice Board can continue to Clause 94 agreed. carry out its placement and estate management functions in relation to remanded young people. These amendments also provide a concurrent power, with the Secretary of Clause 95 : Remands to youth detention State, for the Youth Justice Board to make payments accommodation to and recover costs from local authorities. Payments will be made to local authorities to enable them to take on greater financial responsibility for the costs of Amendment 178ZAE secure remand and to invest to help ensure that remands Moved by Baroness Northover to custody occur only when appropriate. The clear intent is that this funding will be used only for the 178ZAE: Clause 95, page 73, line 39, at end insert “, and provision of youth justice services. (d) accommodation, or accommodation of a description, for the time being specified by order under section The last set of substantive amendments in this group, 107(1)(e) of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Amendments 178ZBJ, 178ZBK, 178ZBL and178ZBM, Act 2000 (youth detention accommodation for purposes amend the test set out in Section 3AA of the Bail Act of detention and training order provisions).” 1976 that a court must apply when deciding whether it may impose electronic monitoring on a child or young Baroness Northover: My Lords, this is a substantial person as a condition of their bail. The amendments group of amendments, many of which are minor and allow for imprisonable offences committed by a child technical. However, there are a number of substantive or young person while remanded in custody under amendments which the Committee will be interested existing provisions or remanded in youth detention in and which I will go through briefly. These relate accommodation under the provisions of the Bill to be 381 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 382

[BARONESS THORNTON] Clause 96 : Arrangements for remands taken into account by the court when determining whether a child or young person has a history of offending. This change is consistent with the equivalent Amendments 178ZBC to 178ZBE condition in Clause 87 relating to electronic monitoring Moved by Lord McNally of a child remanded to local authority accommodation. 178ZBC: Clause 96, page 74, line 37, after “homes” insert “, Amendments 178ZBB, 178ZBH, 178ZBN, 178ZBP, or accommodation within section 95(2)(d),” 178ZBQ and 178ZBR are minor and technical 178ZBD: Clause 96, page 75, line 9, leave out subsections (4) amendments associated with the provisions in Chapter 3. to (6) I should mention that we will arrange for the letter 178ZBE: Clause 96, page 75, line 20, at end insert— that my noble friend Lord McNally recently sent to all “(8) A function of the Secretary of State under this section Peers regarding the Government’s youth justice (other than the function of making regulations) is exercisable by amendments, to which I referred earlier, to be placed the YouthJustice Board for England and Wales concurrently with in the House Libraries. I beg to move. the Secretary of State. (9) The power to make regulations under subsection (2) includes 12.15 pm power to make provision about the recovery of costs by the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales. Lord Beecham: I am grateful to the Minister for this (10) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that group of amendments, with which we entirely concur. subsection (8), or provision made by virtue of subsection (9), is I am particularly glad that the wisdom of the House in not to apply, either generally or in relation to a particular description ensuring that the YouthJustice Board has been preserved of case.” is reflected in here. I am unable to resist the temptation, given the name of the chief executive of the Youth Amendments 178ZBC to 178ZBE agreed. Justice Board, to say that justice has been done. I am sure that Frances Done will be delighted to see these amendments and I congratulate the Government on Clause 96, as amended, agreed. their wisdom in accepting the original views of the House. Clause 97 : Looked after child status Amendment 178ZAE agreed.

Amendment 178ZB not moved. Amendment 178ZBF Moved by Lord McNally Amendments 178ZBA and 178ZBB 178ZBF: Clause 97, page 75, line 28, leave out subsections (3) Moved by Lord McNally to (5) 178ZBA: Clause 95, page 74, line 20, at end insert— “(8A) A function of the Secretary of State under this section Amendment 178ZBF agreed. (other than the function of making regulations) is exercisable by the YouthJustice Board for England and Wales concurrently with the Secretary of State. Clause 97, as amended, agreed. (8B) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide that subsection (8A) is not to apply, either generally or in relation to a Clause 98 agreed. particular description of case.” 178ZBB: Clause 95, page 74, line 21, leave out from “means” to end of line 33 and insert “accommodation which is provided in Amendment 178ZBG a children’s home, within the meaning of the Care Standards Act 2000— Moved by Lord McNally (a) which provides accommodation for the purposes of 178ZBG: After Clause 98, insert the following new Clause— restricting liberty, and “Regulations under this Chapter (b) in respect of which a person is registered under Part 2 of (1) Regulations under this Chapter are to be made by statutory that Act. instrument. (10) Before the coming into force in relation to England of (2) Regulations under this Chapter may— section 107(2) of the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) Act 2003, subsection (9) has effect as if it defined (a) make different provision for different cases; “secure children’s home” in relation to England as accommodation (b) include supplementary, incidental, transitional, transitory which— or saving provision. (a) is provided in a children’s home, within the meaning of (3) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this the Care Standards Act 2000, in respect of which a Chapter is subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of person is registered under Part 2 of that Act, and either House of Parliament, subject to subsection (4). (b) is approved by the Secretary of State for the purpose of (4) A statutory instrument containing regulations under section restricting the liberty of children.” 95(8B) or 96(10) (whether alone or with any other provision) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, Amendments 178ZBA and 178ZBB agreed. and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”

Clause 95, as amended, agreed. Amendment 178ZBG agreed. 383 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 384

Schedule 12 : Remands of children otherwise than on Clause 100 : Crediting of periods of remand in custody bail: minor and consequential amendments Amendment 178ZC Amendments 178ZBH to 178ZBN Moved by Baroness Northover Moved by Lord McNally 178ZC: Clause 100, page 77, line 12, leave out “committed on 178ZBH: Schedule 12, page 199, line 12, at end insert— or after 4th April 2005” “(5) In subsection (7), in the definition of “serious offence”, after “means” insert “(subject to subsection (8))”. Baroness Northover: My Lords, this package of (6) After subsection (7) insert— amendments will give effect to the second stage of the “(8) For the purposes of the application of this section to a Government’s approach to the simplification and person remanded on bail in connection with proceedings under clarification of the current release and recall provisions the Extradition Act 2003— for determinate sentenced prisoners by bringing these (a) an offence is a “serious offence” if the conduct provisions together within a single statute—the Criminal constituting the offence would, if committed in the Justice Act 2003. United Kingdom, constitute an offence punishable in the case of an adult with imprisonment for a term of two The current release and recall provisions are spread years or more, and across a number of different statutes, subject to (b) the reference in subsection (1)(a) to a person being commencement orders with complex transitional and charged with a serious offence includes a reference to the savings provisions and subsequent amendments. This person having been accused of such an offence.”” has created an extremely intricate and unwieldy web of 178ZBJ: Schedule 12, page 200, line 10, leave out “In” legislation which is very difficult to follow, even for criminal justice experts and practitioners. This in turn 178ZBK: Schedule 12, page 200, line 11, after “seventeen)” insert “is amended as follows. has been heavily criticised by the courts and calls have been made for the Government to simplify the provisions. (2) In subsection (3), at the end insert “or youth detention accommodation”. The first step in our approach to achieve this (3) ” simplification was to introduce the provisions contained in Clauses 100 to 112 of Chapter 4 of the Bill. These 178ZBL: Schedule 12, page 200, line 13, after “section” insert “— amend the current 2003 Act provisions to establish the single regime that will apply to those sentences imposed (a) ” on or after commencement. 178ZBM: Schedule 12, page 200, line 15, at end insert “, The second stage of our approach, which is what (b) the reference to being remanded to youth detention this package of amendments will do, is to consolidate accommodation is to be construed in accordance with section 95 of that Act, and within the 2003 Act those provisions of the Criminal Justice Acts 1967 and 1991 that will be required to (c) those references include a reference to a remand to local authority accommodation under section 23 of the continue to apply to those prisoners who, at the time Children and Young Persons Act 1969.” of commencement, are subject to the release arrangements 178ZBN: Schedule 12, page 203, line 19, leave out “133” and of those previous statutory regimes. We have no intention insert “133(1)” of making substantial changes to the way in which the sentences of those existing prisoners operate and so these amendments do not change the release dates or Amendments 178ZBH to 178ZBN agreed. licence lengths for those current prisoners. In practice, this means saving the current release regimes for the Schedule 12, as amended, agreed. few remaining 1967 Act prisoners; 1991 Act prisoners serving long-term sentences of four years or more for sexual or violent offences—often known as “DCR” Clause 99 : Interpretation of Chapter prisoners; and for current 2003 Act extended sentence prisoners. Going forward, however, all sentences imposed on or after the date of commencement will be subject Amendments 178ZBP to 178ZBR to the 2003 Act release and recall arrangements, as Moved by Lord McNally amended by the provisions in this Bill, regardless of the date that the offender committed his or her offences. 178ZBP: Clause 99, page 76, line 35, leave out subsection (4) That is the broad effect of this package of amendments. 178ZBQ: Clause 99, page 76, line 40, after “accommodation” I would be happy to explain what each of the amendments insert “, and related expressions,” does should your Lordships find that helpful, but in 178ZBR: Clause 99, page 76, line 43, at end insert— the interests of keeping my explanation to a minimum “(8) Subsections (3) and (6) are subject to sections 87(9), I propose simply to highlight the main features. I can 88(10) and 92(11) (references to remand to local authority assure your Lordships that, while these amendments accommodation or youth detention accommodation to include are long and technical, they do not make substantive such a remand under section 23 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969).” changes to the current release arrangements. They are intended mainly to make the legislation itself clearer, easier to follow and less open to misinterpretation. Amendments 178ZBP to 178ZBR agreed. Two new schedules will be inserted into the 2003 Act—the content of these make up the bulk of the Clause 99, as amended, agreed. amendments. The first, Schedule 20A, makes amendments 385 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 386

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] Clause 102 : Amendments consequential on to other statutes that are consequential on the amendments sections 100 and 101 made to the 2003 Act. It also contains transitional provisions to allow prisoners released under the 1991 Act to be deemed to have been released under the 2003 Amendments 178ZJ and 178ZK Act, while preserving their current licence length. The Moved by Lord McNally second, Schedule 20B, reproduces within the 2003 Act the elements of the 1967 and 1991 Act release regimes 178ZJ: Clause 102, page 80, line 39, at end insert— that need to be preserved for those prisoners already “( ) In section 305(1A) (modification of reference to want of sufficient distress), inserted by paragraph 155 of Schedule 13 to serving these types of sentence. In other words, it the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, for “In the achieves the consolidation of all the current release definition of “sentence of imprisonment” in subsection (1) the provisions into a single statute. reference” substitute “In this Part any reference”.” Connected to the introduction of new Schedule 20B, 178ZK: Clause 102, page 81, line 4, at end insert— our intention now is to remove Clause 112. The clause “( ) section 23 and Schedule 6.” contains a power to allow the Secretary of State to make an order by secondary legislation to bring the release and recall provisions of the Criminal Justice Amendments 178ZJ and 178ZK agreed. Acts of 1967 and 1991 into the 2003 Act. But with the introduction of these amendments, and Schedule 20B in particular, that consolidation now will be achieved Clause 102, as amended, agreed. on the face of the Act so that the order-making power is no longer necessary and can be removed. I commend this package of amendments to your Lordships and I beg to move. Schedule 13 : Crediting of time in custody: Armed Forces amendments Lord Beecham: My Lords, I welcome the clarification that this range of amendments brings about. I am Amendment 178ZL particularly glad to see the mea culpa stance over Moved by Lord McNally Clause 112 standing part and hope that this presages greater use of the procedure whereby the Government 178ZL: Schedule 13, page 205, line 25, at end insert— withdraw proposals which are not satisfactory. I trust “Part 2 that this is the first swallow of a summer of such Other amendments arrivals. Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (c. 19) 6 In Schedule 2 to the Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (procedural Amendment 178ZC agreed. and other provisions applicable on order for retrial), in paragraph 2(4), for “Sections 240” substitute “Sections 240ZA”. Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77) Amendments 178ZD to 178ZG 7 In section 7 of the Immigration Act 1971 (exemption from Moved by Lord McNally deportation for certain existing residents), in subsection (4), after “section 240” insert “, 240ZA or 240A”. 178ZD: Clause 100, page 78, leave out lines 17 to 20 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) 178ZE: Clause 100, page 78, line 22, after “91” insert “or 96” 8 In section 35A of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 178ZF: Clause 100, page 78, line 23, after “section” insert (extension of disqualification where custodial sentence also imposed), in subsection (6)— “227 or” (a) omit “a direction under”; 178ZG: Clause 100, page 78, line 23, leave out from second “Act” to end of line 25 (b) in paragraph (a), for “section 240” substitute “section 240ZA”; (c) in paragraph (b), before “section 240A”insert “a direction Amendments 178ZD to 178ZG agreed. under”. Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (c. 6) Clause 100, as amended, agreed. 9 The Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 is amended as follows. 10 In section 82A (determination of tariffs), in subsection (3)(b), Clause 101 : Crediting of periods of remand on bail for “section 240” substitute “section 240ZA”. 11 In section 101 (term of detention and training order), in subsection (12A), for “the reference in subsection (2) of that section Amendment 178ZH to section 240” substitute “the reference in subsection (2A) of that section to section 240ZA”. Moved by Lord McNally 12 In section 147A (extension of disqualification where custodial 178ZH: Clause 101, page 79, line 28, leave out “, (11)” sentence also imposed), in subsection (6)— (a) omit “a direction under”; Amendment 178ZH agreed. (b) in paragraph (a), for “section 240” substitute “section 240ZA”; (c) in paragraph (b), before “section 240A”insert “a direction Clause 101, as amended, agreed. under”. 387 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 388

International Criminal Court Act 2001 (c. 17) Clause 104 : Restrictions on early release subject to 13 In Schedule 7 to the International Criminal Court Act 2001 curfew (domestic provisions not applicable to ICC prisoners), in paragraph 2(1)(d), for “sections 240” substitute “sections 240ZA”.” Amendments 178ZQ to 178ZS Moved by Lord McNally Amendment 178ZL agreed. 178ZQ: Clause 104, page 82, line 12, after “91” insert “or 96” 178ZR: Clause 104, page 82, line 12, after second “section” Schedule 13, as amended, agreed. insert “227 or” 178ZS: Clause 104, page 82, leave out lines 13 and 14 Amendments 178ZQ to 178ZS agreed. Clause 103 : Prisoners serving less than 12 months Clause 104, as amended, agreed. Amendments 178ZM and 178ZN Clauses 105 to 108 agreed. Moved by Lord McNally 178ZM: Clause 103, page 81, line 12, leave out from “months” Amendment 178ZT to end of line 14 Moved by Lord McNally 178ZN: Clause 103, page 81, line 25, at end insert— 178ZT: After Clause 108, insert the following new Clause— “(4) This section is subject to— “Replacement of transitory provisions (a) section 256B (supervision of young offenders after (1) Chapter 6 of Part 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 release), and (release on licence) is amended as follows. (2) In section 237(1)(b) (“fixed-term prisoner” includes those (b) paragraph 8 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases).”” serving sentence of detention)— (a) after “91” insert “or 96”; Amendments 178ZM and 178ZN agreed. (b) before “228” insert “227 or”. (3) At the end of that section insert— “(3) In this Chapter, references to a sentence of detention Clause 103, as amended, agreed. under section 96 of the Sentencing Act or section 227 of this Act are references to a sentence of detention in a young offender institution.” (4) In section 244(3)(a) (duty to release prisoners: requisite Schedule 14 : Prisoners serving less than 12 months: custodial period), after “91” insert “or 96”. consequential amendments (5) In section 250(4) (licence conditions)— (a) after “91” insert “or 96”; Amendment 178ZP (b) before “228” insert “227 or”. (6) In section 258 (early release of fine defaulters and contemnors), Moved by Lord McNally after subsection (3) insert— 178ZP: Schedule 14, page 205, line 27, at end insert— “(3A) The reference in subsection (3) to sentences of imprisonment includes sentences of detention under section 91 or 96 of the “Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (c. 53) Sentencing Act or under section 227 or 228 of this Act.” 1 In section 35A of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (7) In section 263(4) (concurrent terms)— (extension of disqualification where custodial sentence also imposed)— (a) after “91” insert “or 96”; (a) in subsection (8), after “section” insert “243A(3)(a),”; (b) before “228” insert “227 or”. (b) in subsection (9)(a), after “in respect of section” insert (8) In section 264(7) (consecutive terms)— “243A(3)(a) or”. (a) after “91” insert “or 96”; Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (c. 43) (b) before “228” insert “227 or”. 2 In Schedule 1 to the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (transfer of (9) In section 265(2) (restriction on consecutive sentences)— prisoners within the British Islands), in paragraphs 8(2)(a) and 9(2)(a), after “sections 241,” insert “243A,”. (a) after “91” insert “or 96”; Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000 (c. 6) (b) before “228” insert “227 or”. 3 In section 147A of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) (10) In Part 2 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (life sentences: Act 2000 (extension of disqualification where custodial sentence release on licence)— also imposed)— (a) in section 31A(5) (termination of licences), in the (a) in subsection (8), after “section” insert “243A(3)(a),”; definition of “preventive sentence”, after “a sentence of imprisonment” insert “or detention in a young offender (b) in subsection (9)(a), after “in respect of section” insert institution”; “243A(3)(a) or”. (b) in section 34(2)(d) (interpretation), after “a sentence of International Criminal Court Act 2001 (c. 17) imprisonment” insert “or detention in a young offender 4 In Schedule 7 to the International Criminal Court Act 2001 institution”. (domestic provisions not applicable to ICC prisoners), in (11) In the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Sentencing) (Transitory paragraph 3(1), for “sections 244” substitute “sections 243A”.” Provisions) Order 2005 (S.I. 2005/643), article 3(7), (10), (11), (12), (13), (14), (15) and (17)(a) and (b) (transitory provision replaced by this section) are revoked.” Amendment 178ZP agreed. Amendment 178ZT agreed. Schedule 14, as amended, agreed. Clauses 109 to 111 agreed. 389 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 390

Schedule 15 : Application of sections 100 to 110 and “28A Duty to release certain prisoners serving a whole life transitional and transitory provisions sentence (1) In the case of a life prisoner who has been made subject to a whole life order, and has served 30 years of his sentence, it shall Amendment 178ZU be the duty of the Secretary of State, with the consent of the Lord Chief Justice and the trial judge if available, to refer the case to Moved by Lord McNally the Parole Board. 178ZU: Schedule 15, page 208, line 4, at end insert— (2) If the Parole Board is satisfied— “( ) Section (Replacement of transitory provisions) applies in (a) that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the relation to any person who falls to be released under Chapter 6, or public that the prisoner should be confined, and (as the case may be) under Chapter 2 of Part 2 of the Crime (b) that in all the circumstances the release of the prisoner (Sentences) Act 1997, on or after the commencement date.” on licence would be in the interests of justice, the Parole Board may direct his release under this section. Amendment 178ZU agreed. (3) Where the Parole Board has directed a prisoner’s release under this section, it shall be the duty of the Secretary of State to Schedule 15, as amended, agreed. release him on licence.””

Clause 112 disagreed. Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, this is one of three amendments in my name in this chapter of the Bill. They are grouped separately but they all have one Amendment 178ZV thing in common: like Clause 113, they are an attempt Moved by Lord McNally to undo some of the harm that was done by the Criminal Justice Act 2003. The introduction of 178ZV: Before Clause 113, insert the following new Clause— indeterminate sentences for the protection of the public— “Simplification of existing transitional provisions now to be abolished—has had disastrous consequences, (1) Chapter 6 of Part 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (“the as we all know, to which we will later come in further 2003 Act”) is to apply to any person serving a sentence for an amendments. offence committed before 4 April 2005 (whenever that sentence was or is imposed). The IPP sentence is but one example of the harm that has been done by the 2003 Act. Amendment 178A (2) Section 258 of the 2003 Act (release of fine defaulters and contemnors) is to apply to any person who was, before 4 April deals with another example. It concerns the 41 prisoners 2005, committed to prison or to be detained under section 108 of currently serving whole life sentences, who have no the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000— hope of being released except on compassionate grounds. (a) in default of payment of a sum adjudged to be paid by a If you ask me how many such prisoners have ever been conviction, or released on compassionate grounds, the answer is (b) for contempt of court or any kindred offence. none. (3) In accordance with subsections (1) and (2)— The position was very different before the 2003 Act (a) the repeal of Part 2 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 came into force. In those days, the tariff was fixed by which is made by section 303(a) of the 2003 Act has the Home Secretary. In the most serious cases he effect in relation to any person mentioned in those would impose a whole life sentence, as judges do now, subsections; but there was this vital difference: it was then the (b) paragraphs 15 to 18, 19(a), (c) and (d), 20, 22 to 28 and settled practice of successive Home Secretaries to 30 to 34 of Schedule 2 to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 review such sentences after 25 years. If the prisoner (Commencement No. 8 and Transitional and Saving had made exceptional progress and there was no other Provisions) Order 2008 (S.I. 2005/950) (which relate to purpose in keeping him in prison, he would be considered the coming into force of provisions of Chapter 6 of Part 12 of the 2003 Act) are revoked. for release. (4) Section 86 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) The question is why that humane practice was not Act 2000 (extension of periods in custody and on licence in the re-enacted when the 2003 Act came into force. It case of certain sexual offences) is repealed. cannot, one imagines, have been deliberate unless the (5) Schedule (Amendments of the Criminal Justice Act 2003: settled practice of Home Secretaries had proved to be transitional and consequential provisions) (transitional and other unsatisfactory in some way, and there is no evidence of provisions consequential on this section) has effect. that, so it must have been overlooked. We now have a (6) Schedule (Criminal Justice Act 2003: restatement of transitional chance to put it right. We can give these 41 prisoners provisions) (amendments to the 2003 Act restating the effect of serving whole life sentences the same chance of a certain transitional and other provisions relating to the release review as they had before the 2003 Act came into and recall of prisoners) has effect.” force. Of course it does not mean that they will be released because it would depend on the circumstances Amendment 178ZV agreed. of each individual case, but it does at least mean that they will have a hope of review. That is the very limited Amendment 178A purpose of this amendment. Moved by Lord Lloyd of Berwick 12.30 pm 178A: Before Clause 113, insert the following new Clause— There is, however, another consideration which I “Duty to release certain prisoners serving a whole life sentence am sure the Government will have in mind. On 17 January In Chapter 2 of Part 1 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 this year, the fourth section of the European Court after section 28 insert— of Human Rights gave judgment in the case of Vinter 391 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 392 and Others v the United Kingdom. The question was I know about this from direct personal experience, whether the imposition of what is known as an irreducible if that is possible. For 10 years, my wife served on the life sentence, that is to say a whole life sentence without board of a prison exclusively for lifers. In some ways it hope of parole, was of itself a breach of Article 3 of was an avant-garde prison at that time, but I was the convention. The Court decided by the slenderest always encouraged by the stories she brought back of majorities that it was not, and so the Government about the exciting and imaginative work being done won—just. But there is now to be an appeal to the there. One of her fellow governors was the late Roman Grand Chamber, and if the Government lose, they Catholic Archbishop of Liverpool, who at that time will have to enact primary legislation to allow for was the Roman Catholic Bishop of Portsmouth. He review after 25 or 30 years in whole life cases. That served with great commitment on that board and we being so, it must surely be sensible to make the change were all great friends. We used to discuss the prison now, while we have the opportunity, and thus bring us and its works. We would take heart from the encouraging into line not only with our own previous practice, as I things that were happening and laugh about some of have described, but also with that of the International the warm and positive stories that came out of the Criminal Court and every other European country situation, but I remember that he would always say, except, as I understand it, Holland. “Basically, it is a very sad place”. What my wife talked As far as I can see, there cannot be any objection to about is something that I find very difficult to cope the Government taking that course and therefore agreeing with: the prisoner who sees absolutely no light at the this amendment. I look forward to hearing what the end of the tunnel. How does this help the process of Minister has to say in reply. I beg to move. rehabilitation? How does this help the process of reconstructing a life? From this standpoint, I believe that the amendment moved by the noble and learned Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I welcome every Lord, not for the first time, can claim to stand for word that has been said to justify this amendment. It is civilisation and humanitarian values in society. We altogether impossible that 41 prisoners serving whole should warmly applaud it. life sentences should be imprisoned in this way. What the noble and learned Lord has said is absolutely essential as far as having a civilised attitude where the The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, it will criminal law is concerned. People serving whole life not surprise you that I wholeheartedly support the sentences will be able to look forward with some hope amendment. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, if the conditions in the amendment are satisfied and Lord Judd, for warning against sentiment. There is a the Parole Board accepts the submissions that are robustness about offering human beings hope that made. I thank the noble Lord for raising this vital contributes specifically to the rehabilitation and point. reconstruction of which he spoke. However, this is about much more than simply giving hope to individuals, Lord Judd: My Lords, I was very glad to add my because a society that does not give hope to individuals name to this amendment. I have the utmost respect for is unlikely to have hope for itself in areas in which it the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. feels as a society hopeless. In terms of a civilised He always brings to our deliberations his very high society, this is a very humane amendment which is standards of legal expertise, but what I like about him, necessary for our societal good as well as for the if I am allowed to say so, is that that legal expertise is individuals for whom it is designed. always tempered with the values of the civilised society and a strong sense of humanitarian concern. Long may he remain with us to bring those to bear. Baroness Stern: My Lords, I support the amendment and endorse the excellent speeches made by all those We do not indulge in vengeance in our penal system. who have spoken so far. I stress, as they have, that this We are about an appropriate punishment for a serious is not an amendment about releasing any particular offence, and that must happen because it is absolutely person who has done any particular thing; it is an right. But we are also about the challenge of rehabilitation. amendment about what sort of penal system we have However dreadful the crime that has been committed and its values. and however much we may feel a sense of solidarity and empathy with the victims of crime, the challenge One of the consequences of the very welcome abolition in a civilised society is to try to enable the perpetrator of the death penalty—I declare an interest as chair of of the crime to see the significance of what they have the All-Party Group for the Abolition of the Death done, to recognise and accept responsibility for it, and Penalty—was a search for another sentence for the to move on to a positive and creative life. If we do not most serious and dreadful crimes. A few countries always strive to try to enable someone who has done a decided to adopt the life-without-parole alternative. In dreadful thing to become a better person and to rejoin the United States in 2009, there were more than 2,500 society as a better person, I think that we demonstrate juveniles serving a sentence of life without parole, a lack of self-confidence in our own civilised values. which is probably at the extreme end of the use of the Of course it is no good sentimentalising this issue. sentence. There will be some people where these endeavours I have always been of the view that a non-reviewable make no progress in the end, and there are others life sentence, or what is called by the courts an irreducible where it may just simply be impossible to consider life sentence, with no provision for reconsideration by release. But the aspiration should be that the person the authorities whatever the circumstances—be it their will be released as a positive, reformed and different health condition, their extreme old age or a dramatic member of society, contributing constructively. change in the way the person sees the world—must 393 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 394

[BARONESS STERN] we believe that people can change, and if we believe in surely constitute inhuman and degrading treatment. I reformation, then it is essential that there is something was one of those disappointed by the European Court at the end of the tunnel for those who can demonstrate of Human Rights not reaching that view in the case of that they have come through the process and now put Vintner and others v United Kingdom. That case was behind them any capacity to be dangerous. For that barely reported, probably because the court found in reason I very much hope that, difficult as it is, the favour of the Government; it seems to be the other Government will find the courage to put some provision cases that are always widely reported and commented like this in to the Bill. upon. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, the court’s judgment was by a slim majority of Lord Pannick: My Lords, I, too, support the four against three. I shall quote briefly from the opinion amendment, for all the reasons that have been given. It of the three dissenting judges. They said: is surely inhumane to say to a prisoner that they will “we conclude that there was a procedural infringement by reason remain in prison for the whole of their life, other than of the absence of some mechanism that would remove the hopelessness in the most exceptional compassionate circumstances— inherent in a sentence of life imprisonment from which, independently of the circumstances, there is no possibility whatsoever of release which I understand to mean that they are dying—whatever while the prisoner is still well enough to have any sort of life progress they may make, however long a period may outside prison”. elapse. Surely it is also very damaging to prison order In 2007, the European Committee for the Prevention to have in prison this number of prisoners who have of Torture said of the whole life sentence: no incentive whatever to progress, to behave and to “the CPT has serious reservations about the very concept according move towards a responsible approach. to which such prisoners, once they are sentenced, are considered The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, once and for all as a permanent threat to the community and are mentioned that the Vintner case would inevitably go deprived of any hope to be granted conditional release”. to the Grand Chamber. I very much hope and expect The German constitutional court found in 2010 that the Grand Chamber will take into account the that if someone had no practical prospect of release, a views of those in your Lordships’ House who have life sentence would be cruel and degrading and infringe expressed the opinion that this is indeed an inhumane the requirements of human dignity provided for in way to treat prisoners. Article 1 of the German Basic Law. I also remind the I note that the amendment is drafted in terms of a Committee that the statute of the International Criminal discretion for the Parole Board. I would understand Court—which, as noble Lords will know, deals only that to be the case because the Secretary of State faces with the most heinous crimes—expressly provides for this difficulty: either he retains an absolute position, a review of detention by the court after 25 years. whereby there will be no review; or he recognises that there will be a review, but by an independent body—the 12.45 pm Parole Board. As I would understand it, the Secretary Although prison sentences are very long in some of State is simply unable, as a result of earlier European European countries, it is only England and Wales—not Court judgments, to take upon himself a statutory Scotland—and the Netherlands that have whole life power to review the position and to decide on release sentences. France has them in theory but there is a after 30 years. provision for the courts to release prisoners who have I also note that the amendment is drafted in terms made significant progress. of it being the duty of the Secretary of State, I am sure the Minister will agree that if the penal “with the consent of the Lord Chief Justice and the trial judge if system has at its heart, alongside the need for punishment available”. and protection, a commitment to rehabilitation, and if I would welcome assistance from the noble and learned it accepts that human beings can change, then surely it Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, when he comes to reply, is an expression of that belief that everyone, however as to whether it is his intention that after 30 years it heinous the crime, should be reviewed at least after should be the duty of the Secretary of State to refer 30 years. the matter to the Parole Board only if the Lord Chief Justice and the trial judge—that is, both of them, if Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, I support the the latter is available—consent. Will he explain the amendment. I do so in part having been around prisons purpose of involving the Lord Chief Justice and the in Hong Kong some years ago—I have no reason to trial judge? Is it intended that they should enjoy some think that the position has changed since—and seen discretion; and if so, pursuant to what criteria? considerable numbers of very old and very sick men I respectfully suggest that it would be more appropriate who were there because there was no means of their to say that these matters should automatically be ever being released. They presented very considerable referred to the Parole Board after 30 years. That is a difficulties for the prison service and they presented very long time. Of course the Lord Chief Justice of the difficulties in their management during their term in day and the trial judge, if available, should be invited prison because they had nothing to gain by behaving to give their opinions on what should happen to the well during their time there. individual, but I am troubled by the idea that there It requires political courage to accept an amendment could be an impediment to the Parole Board even such as this—just as it requires courage on the part of considering the matter after 30 years if, say, the trial a judge who is dealing with a case which has aroused judge thinks it inappropriate to do so. That is a great public emotion, just as it requires courage on the drafting question. I strongly support the principle of part of a parole board to deal with a prisoner who has the amendment, for all the reasons that have been been in the media and attracts media attention—but if given already, and those that I have added. 395 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 396

Lord Borrie: My Lords, I have a natural sympathy textbook in a way that would be understood, and with the amendment proposed by the noble and learned translated his descriptions into Braille. After four years, Lord. I was once, admittedly a long time ago, a blind children had access to a science textbook, thanks member of the Parole Board, when it was fairly new. to the activities of someone who, in theory, had been That was under the chairmanship of Lord Hunt of rejected by society. I talked with Nilsen and will not Llanfair Waterdine, who was in this House. He was describe that. But I will never forget talking to the sometimes known as Lord Hunt of Everest, for obvious education officer who had had the wit to realise that reasons. I served on the Parole Board then and thought there was something in Nilsen that could be harnessed that it was a rather good body. The noble Baroness, to the public good. She used the word “hope”, which Lady Howe of Idlicote, was a fellow member. I have was present at the time, and said how essential it was fond memories of it and thought it a good body with a that she had hope that something could be achieved. I good mix of experience of criminal law, criminals and was enormously disturbed when that hope was removed criminology—in my case, apparently. It is bound to be by the 2003 Act. I very much hope that the Minister even better today in terms of experience. I am glad will be able to respond to this amendment. that it has a central position under the amendment. I have one query, rather on the same lines as that of Baroness Prashar: My Lords, I support the amendment. the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It is a question to the As the former chairman of the Parole Board, I agree noble and learned Lord about the difference between with most of the comments that have been made so far duty and discretion, and who has what. I would also in the debate. The discretion should be with the Parole like to know the answer to the question from the noble Board and there should be an automatic review after Lord, Lord Pannick—as would he. My question is a 30 years. The concepts of hope and incentive are very slightly different twist on that. In the amendment important. In my experience, the fact that cases would there is a duty on the Secretary of State, and then if go before the Parole Board was an incentive for prisoners. the matter goes to the Parole Board, the board has That is an important aspect. The Parole Board is discretion. Surely, even among those who have spoken also very good at risk assessment. It should be given this afternoon who are most sympathetic to the long-term that discretion with all the reports. I agree that it prisoner, we can all think of those who should never should then be the duty of the Home Secretary to come out of prison under any circumstances. That is accept the recommendation made by the Parole Board. clearly known and pretty definite. I wonder why the I would very much like the Government to support the amendment does not impose a discretion on the Secretary amendment. of State rather than a duty, on the basis that it will be a complete waste of time for the Parole Board to examine Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I briefly add or review certain cases on which every report, indication my support to the amendment of the noble and learned and study from within the Prison Service shows that it Lord, Lord Lloyd. As has been rightly said, he stands would be quite unsafe at any time to allow the release up for instances where justice and fairness clearly need of certain people given life sentences. I query the duty to be not just seen but interpreted correctly. I will also and discretion bit from a very different angle from the comment on what my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham noble Lord, Lord Pannick, but pursuing the same said about this business of hope in what you try to point. I certainly believe that most cases should have a achieve and for the individual who is there for life—for review and that should be by the Parole Board. That 30 years, anyhow—and about incentivising activities would be excellent and I hope that the amendment will that could be of interest and help to any future he be carried. might have. As the noble Lord, Lord Borrie, said, I was a very Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I support my noble early member of the Parole Board, and I think that the and learned friend Lord Lloyd on this excellently independence of the Parole Board in looking at these moved amendment and pick up on a point made by matters is absolutely crucial. I am a little doubtful the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. He mentioned the about how important the Secretary of State’s role may impact on prison order. I will, as it were, personalise be, not least if—as it will be—it were years after the this. As Chief Inspector of Prisons I was always offence was tried and committed and the decisions interested in how prisoners serving natural life sentences made. However, whether or not his role is important were managed. Without the word “hope”, which has and appropriate, it will be most important that the appeared in the contributions of many noble Lords, Parole Board has independence and stands back. those prisoners had nothing to look forward to. More importantly, the staff had—in theory—nothing to 1pm offer the prisoner. Noble Lords may remember the name of Dennis Lord Beecham: My Lords, there is certainly a unanimity Nilsen, who was awarded a natural life sentence for a of view in the debate thus far that the present system is series of perfectly dreadful crimes. Noble Lords may not satisfactory. It should perhaps be pointed out that not know that one aspect of education denied to blind there have been very few instances of compassionate children is access to science textbooks because graphs release, including three cases arising out of the Good cannot be read in Braille. One of the education officers Friday agreement and the case of the East End criminal, in the prison, looking at Dennis Nilsen and his Reggie Kray, but that is a little beside the point. characteristics, reckoned that something there could My problem, such as it is, with the noble and be harnessed. Nilsen was taught to write in Braille. learned Lord’s amendment, is more in the rubric than Then, over four years, he described graphs in a science in the intention. It is clear that there will always be 397 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 398

[LORD BEECHAM] am old enough to remember that campaign, and I some cases in which release will not and should not remember that part of it, which swung many MPs, was occur. I suspect that there will be few, but there will be the proposal that life would mean life. It has always some. The public need to be persuaded that the people been a problem area, particularly for those who have who are not reformed and who might well continue to committed the most horrific crimes. constitute a danger will not be released. There will The story that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, always be a small number of those. told was very encouraging in that it told of someone’s The amendment refers to the, capability do good, even after the most horrific crimes. “Duty to release certain prisoners serving a whole life sentence”. However, that capacity to do some good would not I can see whence that comes—that is the end of the convince me to release a dangerous person into the process, as it were, which would be acceptable—but as community—and it is that test that has to be passed. I it stands, the wording seems to imply an implicit or would hope that even those who spent the rest of their explicit duty to release prisoners serving a whole life lives in jail would find within their confinement a sentence instead of posing the duty to consider the capability to do good. release. With respect to the noble and learned Lord, I think that we will return to this theme on a that would have been a better way to phrase the number of occasions in the next hour or two, as amendment and would give the public more assurance various amendments come up. The noble Baroness, than what appears on the face of it—and I appreciate Lady Stern, asked what sort of penal system and what that it is only on the face of it—to be an absolute duty sort of values we should have, and the noble Baroness, to release certain prisoners serving a whole life sentence. Lady Mallalieu, called for courage. Courage is certainly needed, but so is a practical use of the art of the possible. Penal reform is always a balance between Lord Lloyd of Berwick: That ignores the function of humane treatment of those who are in prison, concern the Parole Board, which has the discretion, not the for the victims of crime and the retention of public Minister. confidence in our system of justice. Unless we can convince the public of the elements of punishment Lord Beecham: That is precisely my point. The and public protection within the system, we will not amendment rightly envisages a duty to refer to the get their buy-in to rehabilitation, which as I have often Parole Board, but on the face of it it looks as though said from these Benches is very much part of what I there is a duty of release ab initio. That is not the and the Lord Chancellor see as built into the system. noble and learned Lord’s intention—and I say this However, unless we can carry colleagues and the public with great respect, because of course he is a very with us and retain public confidence, we will not get eminent and learned judge—but it might have assisted the kind of reform that we want. I freely acknowledge his case if it had been put in that way. That point in a that carrying through some of these reforms is an sense echoes the point made by my noble friend Lord exercise in the art of the possible in what will win the Borrie. confidence of the other place and the public. It is sensible to restore a situation in which a release As the noble and learned Lord said in introducing after 30 years can be contemplated and, after due his amendment, things were different some time ago. process, properly agreed. If the Parole Board adjudges One good thing to my mind about recent reforms was that it is safe to release someone, that should be the that all tariffs are now judicially determined. I am one Secretary of State’s duty at that point. In fact, relatively of those—and I share it in other cases as well—who few people are serving these sentences—I think there thinks that we should rely on judicial judgment in are 40 prisoners, and that 20 have been sentenced in these matters. The imposition of minimum terms and that way in the last 10 or 12 years as a result of their whole life orders is now a matter that is exclusively for trial and the conditional decision at the time—so I the judicially. I was very interested in his views on the think there is a way forward on this, with a slight judgment of the European Court of Human Rights. I modification of the way in which the amendment is tend to agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, phrased, and I hope that the Government will look that when the Court gets it right it does not get much sympathetically on it while clearly bearing in mind coverage. I am sure that if it reverses its decision, it will that there will be some prisoners for whom, in the end, be page 1 again. Nevertheless I was a little worried there will be no hope of release. One hopes that there that both the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the will not be many in that category, but there will be noble and learned Lord seem to think that a majority some, and that ought to be recognised from the outset. verdict was somehow of less value. A verdict is a verdict, and a win is a win. I am sure that he has been Lord McNally: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord on the winning side a few times in those circumstances—I Beecham, referred to the unanimity of view in the knew I was tempting fate. House during this debate. I sometimes think that perhaps a joint meeting of both Houses would be Lord Lloyd of Berwick: Yes, the Minister was tempting interesting when we discuss these issues. Nevertheless, fate, but I am very grateful to him. We said that it was this House has a long and proud history of providing by the very slenderest of majorities because three a platform for penal reform, and it has certainly lived judges decided one way, three judges decided the other up to that reputation today. way and the seventh judge decided with the majority I make one or two preliminary comments. The on a reason that, at any rate, I simply cannot understand. noble Baroness, Lady Stern, referred to the campaign It seemed to have nothing to do with the case. Anyway, to abolish the death penalty. Like many in this House I we will know when it goes to the Grand Chamber. 399 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 400

Lord McNally: When I read the football results on Lord Pannick: On public confidence, which the a Saturday night and Blackpool have won four-three, I Minister rightly emphasised is so important in this am not interested in whether the final goal was thought area, why does he think that the public should not to be offside as long as it counted, but I am sure that is have confidence in a system in which, after 30 years, not a legal opinion. an independent parole board can ask itself whether it is any longer necessary for the protection of the public, As has been explained, the amendment provides for and whether it would be in the interests of justice, that the possibility of a conditional release of a prisoner this person remains in prison. Why should the public serving a life sentence with a whole life tariff once he not have confidence in a law along those lines? or she has served 30 years. It would produce the odd effect that an offender who had committed the most 1.15 pm exceptionally serious crimes could be considered for Lord McNally: Some future Government may well release earlier than a life sentence prisoner with a bring forward a proposal along those lines. The judgment determinate minimum term of more than 30 years. of the Government at the moment is that on a law that The minimum term or tariff under a life sentence is is safely in judges’ hands for determination, and that the period which the court determines the offender applies to a specific number of the most serious crimes, has to spend in custody for the purpose of punishment the position as it is now is best in retaining public and deterrence. In other words, it reflects the seriousness confidence. It is a matter of political judgment, and of the offence. Schedule 21 to the Criminal Justice Act the political judgment is that to move on this point, at 2003 provides guidance to the courts on the determination this point, would not retain public confidence in a of a minimum term for a life sentence imposed for package in which we are trying to make moves in murder. It provides for a whole life tariff to be the certain directions and carry colleagues who are not as starting point for the most exceptionally serious cases, enthusiastic as this House on some of these matters. where the offender was aged 21 or over at the time the murder was committed. Lord Judd: In the last few minutes the Minister has encouraged me, because he has said that at some point The types of case that might attract the whole life it may be appropriate to introduce legislation that tariff are: the murder of two or more persons where meets the arguments that are being put. It is not the each murder involves a substantial degree of premeditated first time that I have heard the noble Lord refer to the planning; the abduction of the victim or sexual or importance of holding public confidence, and we all sadistic conduct; the murder of a child involving the understand that point, but it is not a matter of accepting abduction of the child or sexual or sadistic motivation; as inevitable the existing state of public opinion. We a murder done for the purpose of advancing a political, have to be very careful that we are not, in effect, religious or ideological cause; or a murder by an running scared of the sensationalist media. We really offender previously convicted of murder. Few would should be not only respecting public opinion and argue against these types of case representing crimes public confidence but helping to shape public confidence so heinous that the court may well consider the appropriate by putting forward the positive argument for change. punishment to be that the offenders must be incarcerated That is essential to successful democracy. If we have for the rest of their lives. Those punishments are, as we become convinced that this is the right thing to do, we would expect, rarely used. The noble Lord, Lord have to speak up for it. Beecham, referred to a figure; the actual figure is that 47 prisoners are now serving a whole life tariff. Lord McNally: I entirely agree. That is why I said in my opening remarks that I am proud that this House We have already referred to the fact that the has been the platform for penal reformers to argue Government’s position on this was upheld in the their case over centuries, but I also say to this House European Court of Human Rights. We will await that we have to carry another place and public opinion the outcome of the appeal, but our position stands. with us in these matters. One of the things I am most Nevertheless, if a stage is reached where the continuing proud of is that this Government, and the Ministry of incarceration of a whole life tariff prisoner is found to Justice under this Lord Chancellor, have been willing be inhuman and degrading, for example where the to try to educate public opinion. Some of the measures person is terminally ill or severely incapacitated and in this Bill will, I hope, move that forward, but no poses no further risk, the Secretary of State has the matter how much courage is used in expounding these power to release the prisoner on compassionate grounds. views, if the result is for the public to lose confidence in the criminal justice system, those are Pyrrhic victories The Government do not therefore consider that it is indeed. necessary or desirable to accept this amendment. The court will have taken full account of the circumstances Lord Clinton-Davis: Does the right honourable and of the offence and the offender in determining that the learned gentleman—sorry, whatever you are. whole life term is appropriate. Such appalling cases are mercifully rare, but judges can legitimately find Noble Lords: Oh! that lifelong incarceration is necessary as a punishment. If the detention of a whole life tariff prisoner could no Lord Clinton-Davis: Does the Minister not envisage longer be justified and became inhuman and degrading, that the public can sometimes be wrong? There is there is already the mechanism allowing for his or her sometimes a disconnection between the views of the release. On those terms, I ask the noble Lord to public and of the legislature, in this House and in the withdraw his amendment. other one. 401 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] Energy: Feed-in Tariffs 402

Lord McNally: From William Wilberforce to Sydney provides a subsidy, paid for by all consumers through Silverman campaigns have been fought, and fought their energy bills, enabling small-scale renewable and successfully. I am sure that this debate will be repeated low-carbon technologies to compete against higher-carbon in debates on other amendments, but I can only make forms of electricity generation. the point so many times that politics is the art of the The unprecedented surge of solar PV installations possible. We believe that the package of reforms here in the latter part of last year, due to a 45 per cent carry forward some of the interests of some of the reduction in estimated installation costs since 2009, Members of this House. However, they must also has placed a huge strain on the feed-in tariffs budget. recognise that wider public opinion—and wider political This threatened the Government’s ability to roll out opinion—does not share all their ambitions at this these small-scale low-carbon technologies in the numbers moment. We are all involved in debate and political we wanted over the next few years. We acted as swiftly education, and I welcome this debate as a contribution as possible to respond to that threat through the to that, but I have to deal with political reality as well. changes that we are now making to the tariffs for solar PV. Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I am grateful to Today is a turning point for the feed-in tariffs the Minister for his reply. The views of the House scheme. We are taking the opportunity of the review today could not really be more unanimous. It is clear to put right the many limitations of the scheme that that every single person who has spoken is in favour of we inherited. We have looked hard at the feed-in tariffs this idea. I would like to mention them all but I shall budget and made the most of the flexibility available mention particularly the right reverend Prelate the under the levy control framework to ensure that we Bishop of Chichester, as he happens to be— keep the scheme going, but we want to do much more than that. Lord McNally: I hate to intervene, especially in the The reforms that I am announcing today are designed middle of a tribute being paid to a Bishop, but I to make that budget go as far as possible to maximise wonder whether the noble and learned Lord would the number of people able to benefit from feed-in ponder my suggestion that a joint meeting of both tariffs. With this new reform package we aim to give Houses would produce such unanimity. The Members plenty of TLC—transparency, longevity and certainty, at the other end actually have to face the public in a which were absent from the scheme that we inherited. way that this House does not. The reforms will provide greater confidence to consumers and industry investing in exciting renewable technologies Lord Lloyd of Berwick: Indeed. In a sense, that is such as solar power, anaerobic digestion, micro-CHP, the only point that the Minister has made, to which wind and hydro power. the answer surely is that it is occasionally possible for Instead of a scheme for the few, the new improved the House of Lords to lead the way, to influence the scheme will deliver for far more. Our new plans will other place and even to influence the public. If that see almost two and a half times more installations were possible, this would be an opportunity to do it. I than were planned under Labour. This is good news would like to mention particularly the observations of for consumers and good news for the sustainable the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, with all her experience growth of the industry. We are proposing a more and knowledge of this subject, and the right reverend predictable and transparent scheme as the costs of Prelate because he is my diocesan bishop and I feel technologies fall. This will ensure a long-term, predictable therefore that I owe him that duty. I beg leave to rate of return that will closely track changes in prices withdraw the amendment. and deployment. Amendment 178A withdrawn. Make no mistake, this will be a challenging package. The tariff degression mechanism we will be proposing House resumed. will not allow for fat profits or for excessive rents. However, it will also show a serious ambition. We believe that, under our new plans, by 2020 we could Energy: Feed-in Tariffs see over 20 gigawatts of solar PV in the UK. Statement The coalition wishes to see a bright and vibrant 1.22 pm future for small-scale renewables in the UK, in which each of the technologies is able to reach its potential Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, with the and get to a point where it can stand on its own two leave of the House I shall now repeat as a Statement a feet without the need for subsidy, sooner rather than response to an Urgent Question made in the other later. In opposition we promised a decentralised energy place by my honourable friend the Minister of State revolution—power to the people. Today we are making for Climate Change. a huge stride towards achieving that ambition.” “I am responding to this question as the new Secretary That concludes the Statement. of State for Energy and Climate Change had a longstanding engagement that prevented him from being here. He is currently opening the world’s largest 1.26 pm industrial offshore wind farm in Cumbria. Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I thank the The Government have today announced plans to Minister for repeating the Statement in the House ensure the future of the feed-in tariffs scheme and today. I am grateful for the opportunity to debate make it more predictable. These reforms will lead to a some of these issues and to seek a few points of bigger scheme, providing better value. The scheme clarification on issues where I am not clear. 403 Energy: Feed-in Tariffs[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Energy: Feed-in Tariffs 404

I welcome the Statement and the comments in the on community schemes. What discussions have the Written Ministerial Statement issued this morning Government had with housing associations and social about how the feed-in tariff scheme is an important landlords? They will be most likely to benefit from the instrument in meeting the Government’s commitments proposals and take advantage of these schemes. I am on the take-up of small-scale low-carbon technologies, particularly interested in discussions around the size particularly after the comments of the noble Lord, of the community housing schemes that could benefit. Lord Marland. I am sorry that he is not with us today Many in the industry who have had an opportunity because I could have teased him on this; when we to look at the proposals this morning, albeit very debated this issue on 30 January, he declared this briefly, have been alarmed by those that could see scheme as one of the most ridiculous schemes that had incentives for installations with less than four kilowatts ever been set up, and said how bad it was to have a of capacity cut by a further 35 per cent to 13.6p. Their product that needed the sun to shine to produce fear is that it could lead to a significant contraction of electricity. I am glad to see that the Government did the sector. What consideration have the Government not take his advice and instead are being supportive in given to the impact that this level could have on their Statement today. businesses, and has any consideration been given to I sometimes think that I am repeating myself and the possibility of a further surge in applications before that this falls on deaf ears, but one of the great such a level is imposed? frustrations of the debate on the now regular changes Can I also seek information or clarification regarding that the Government have made to the feed-in tariffs the energy performance rating of homes that will be scheme is how it has been caricatured by Ministers as allowed to install solar under this scheme? The between a Government who recognised that there Government have changed the rating from C to D in needed to be changes to the scheme and everyone else response to the consultation, which should be welcomed. who thought that no changes were needed. I would However, I am slightly confused about the figures on like to lay that to rest: neither we nor the industry have this. Can the Minister confirm that this still means ever argued against change. Our concerns have been that the 50 per cent of homes that are the least that the speed, the scale and the way in which the energy-efficient will not be eligible? Given that private changes have been made have badly damaged investor rented properties are currently ineligible for the Green confidence across the whole renewables sector and Deal to install energy-efficient measures, I am concerned have cost jobs. The industry is in real danger of losing that some of those who would most benefit from both the momentum that it has worked so hard to achieve. schemes will be eligible for neither. To clarify that, I put forward the principle of degression, Can I also ask what weight the Government will which is referred to in the Statement and in the give to the responses to the consultation? The noble consultation, in a previous debate last November when Baroness will be aware that the previous consultation I suggested that the Minister took the opportunity to made huge cuts to the feed-in tariffs. Several consultations look at examples from other countries including the followed each other and around 80 per cent of the German degression mechanism, which controls volume respondents opposed the Government’s plans. To be as well as returns. I also advised the Minister then that fair to them, many supported and some suggested these would work in the UK only with a more ambitious other, less drastic alternatives to cutting the costs in approach to the amount of solar PV that way. However, to ignore 80 per cent of respondents There is a lot to digest in the consultations issued was quite shocking. Therefore, can I make a plea for today. I hope that there will be much to support, and the noble Baroness to discuss this with her colleagues, no doubt we will return to these, but today I would so that the Government work harder to discuss the like to raise a few issues with the Minister. The department plans with the industry, rather than just tell it what to has said today, and this is confirmed by the Minister do? I should like to avoid this constant merry-go-round Greg Barker in the other place, that DECC commissioned of consultation, changes, consultation and changes. It an analysis on the costs of solar PV.My understanding would be great to work with the industry to get the is that the study was commissioned on 10 January but changes right once and for all. it had to report back just three days later. How many My next point is, again, a request for clarification solar PV businesses were consulted as part of that from the noble Baroness, regarding the cost of these analysis? I also ask for clarification of the community ongoing legal actions over the Government’s changes schemes referred to in the consultations. to the solar feed-in tariffs. I was able to mention this to The Minister may be aware that the previous scheme her, albeit briefly, just before we came in. I know she is that was brought in by Labour provided for community aware of my concerns about this merry-go-round of schemes because we think that that is an important legal actions when my belief is that the Government way forward, particularly for social housing. The should negotiate with the industry, rather than go into Government’s first tranche of changes to solar PV and court after court and lose in court after court. When I feed-in tariffs divided the market into schemes above asked the noble Lord, Lord Marland, a Question in or below 50 kilowatts. That not only ruled out the your Lordships’ House on 30 January about the cost large-scale solar farms that the Government were seeking to date of legal actions, I think he made a mistake in to take out of the scheme but made community schemes replying. He gave me exactly the same answer, of unviable. When I and my colleagues in the other place £66,400, as was given to my right honourable friend raised this back in November, Ministers agreed to Caroline Flint a week earlier in the other place. In the look at it again and bring forward proposals, so we time between her Question and mine, the Government welcome consultation and will look at the new proposals lost the Court of Appeal case—so they must pay the 405 Energy: Feed-in Tariffs[LORDS] Energy: Feed-in Tariffs 406

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] One part of our announcement deals with some decisions other side’s costs as well—and decided to go to the that the Government have taken in light of the first Supreme Court. Therefore, the costs must now be at consultation, which took place last autumn. We are least twice that, if not more. Can the noble Baroness starting another consultation today.From the consultation update the House on the cost to date? outcomes that we are announcing today, it is clear that Finally, we all want to consider and look in some we listened very carefully to the responses that we detail at the consultation. I hope it will be an effective received. consultation exercise and that the contents of the On community schemes, in the context of solar PV, documents will be discussed with the industry and we have announced that those who are installing more others. I look forward to further dates. I appreciate than 25 units, rather than one, should benefit from the that the noble Baroness may not be able to answer all higher tariffs. Previously, it was proposed that once my questions, but I would be grateful if she could someone had installed more than just one solar panel, write to me with the details. they would start to receive a reduced level of tariff. We have increased that to more than 25 to make sure that 1.33 pm we do not inappropriately cut off any of the small community projects that have been mentioned in previous Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I am grateful to the debates on this subject. At the same time, we are noble Baroness for her comments. It is unfortunate consulting today on what the definition of “community” that my noble friend Lord Marland is not here today. should be in the future. As the noble Baroness pointed He is overseas and working hard to create new export out, this is a very important issue and we want to get it opportunities for the industry. I know he would be right. We are consulting and have already talked to disappointed to miss the opportunity to respond to organisations such as the National Housing Federation the points raised by the noble Baroness. and local authorities about this. The point of that On her first point about his comments in the Chamber consultation is to make sure that we have a proper the other day in response to an Oral Question, my scheme so that communities—whether they are local noble friend is very clear in the way he speaks. He authorities that want to introduce solar panels for a certainly does not require me to interpret anything for group of schools or community-based projects—receive him. What he said was certainly striking but there the kind of tariff that they rightfully should. was no mistaking that his point was that the level of I am reminding myself of other points that the subsidy that was available to an industry that has noble Baroness raised in her remarks. On the EPC, the become so successful was ridiculous. That is something definition of environmental change is something else that we should certainly welcome. that we took account of in considering the responses I will respond to some of the other points that the to the consultation. As I said earlier—and as the noble noble Baroness raised. She questioned the impact of Baroness has acknowledged—we have changed the the change in tariff on the industry. As I said in the level of environmental grade for those eligible for the Statement made by my honourable friend, which I tariffs from C to D. I think the noble Baroness was repeated, we are very clear that we see a long-term asking whether this would mean that 50 per cent of future for the solar power industry. It is important. We people would still not be able to benefit from this tariff want to put in place arrangements that safeguard the change without making some changes to their houses. future of jobs in a sustainable way. In preparing for She is right: they will still need to make some changes today, it was interesting to learn that, in the six weeks to their properties. However, whereas under the previous between launching the fixed consultation and its closure, arrangement only 9 per cent of houses had a grade C more small-scale PV capacity was installed than in the energy environmental rating, at level D the sort of whole year before. Indeed, the rate of installation changes which we would expect those 50 per cent of continues to grow. This is an industry that is growing; people who are not covered by the provision to make it continues to be successful and we want it to be are measures such as insulating a loft, making changes successful. Today we are announcing changes that will to the control mechanism of a central heating system ensure that it has the certainty and the longevity that rather than the actual boiler and perhaps lagging a are important to its success. As I think my noble friend cylinder. A householder would need to take account made clear in answering the noble Baroness a couple of these small changes, which can be made at reasonable of weeks ago, as of now no job losses have been cost, to reach level D. I stress that we carefully considered incurred. The changes that we are making are to and have taken on board the responses on that point. ensure that those jobs are sustainable in the future. The final point that the noble Baroness raised The noble Baroness raised a detailed point about concerned the answer that my noble friend gave to her the cost of the analysis that was undertaken by the a couple of weeks ago when she was asking about the department after the consultation closed in the small legal costs that the department has incurred in appealing window at the start of this year. The analysis received the legal judgment at the end of last year. My noble 80 quotes for PV installation from 10 companies and friend was careful to make clear at that time that the used a range of intelligence from the industry. However, department had incurred costs of £66,400 so far. That on something as specific as this, I should like to write was an accurate figure of the costs that had been to the noble Baroness after today’s debate. incurred. As regards any further costs that might be The noble Baroness also asked about community incurred in light of the appeal that the department is schemes. For the benefit of other noble Lords, it is pursuing, it is impossible for me to give the noble worth pointing out that there are two issues to do with Baroness an estimate of what they might be. She will community schemes in what we have announced today. know that decisions on the costs that the appellant 407 Energy: Feed-in Tariffs[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Energy: Feed-in Tariffs 408 might have incurred, and how much of those costs the becomes more successful. In terms of flexibility that is department may have to pay, will be decided at the end an important thing to be able to do. We have a budget of the process. We are appealing the judgment. It is for that but it is proving difficult to predict specifically important that I make clear why we are appealing. how the tariffs will change in light of the success of That is to the benefit of everybody. We are appealing the industry, and it is increasingly successful. I think it because the judgment that was arrived at could add is probably safer for me to write to the noble Lord on £100 million in costs each year to the public purse. In whether that budget can be used for ROCs rather than appealing that judgment, we are looking to safeguard feed-in tariffs. around £1.5 billion of public expenditure over the I am grateful to the noble Lord for referring to 25-year tariff lifetime. We think it is right and in the community projects as it gives me the opportunity to interests of the public that we appeal that ruling. correct something that I said in response to the noble Obviously, in doing so, we will incur further legal Baroness, Lady Smith. I think that I became a little costs. If the noble Baroness wishes to ask again what confused between my “highers” and my “lowers” when costs have been incurred when the process is completed, I was talking about the number of people who might no doubt we will be able to provide her with an benefit from the new multi-installation tariffs. Projects accurate answer which will reflect all the issues that of fewer than 25 units will enjoy the higher tariffs. have been taken into account along the way. Those above 25 units will not because once you get above 25 you start getting into a different category of 1.43 pm people, and clearly they should not be subsidised by the public purse. Lord Teverson: My Lords, I very much welcome the Statement. I also very much welcome the fact that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State concentrated Lord Redesdale: My Lords, I declare an interest as on the renewables sector in the first few days of his the chairman of the Anaerobic Digestion and Biogas taking office. I am pleased that the Statement shows Association. That always gets a smile but I feel that I that the Government are trying to get stability back am a lone voice. I add a note of slight criticism: FITs into the investment market as I am sure that is something are not just for solar PV. It seems to me that unless we all want to achieve. I also welcome the emphasis on I raise AD, it never seems to get mentioned in this communities that my noble friend has just mentioned House, but FITs are incredibly important for small-scale as community schemes are very important. AD. We are going to be very much more reliant on the renewable energy coming from AD than we are from As regards solar PV, a planning consultation is PV.Although PV is important, the amount of generating taking place today in Cornwall on a large-scale solar capacity is a fraction of that coming from AD. PV scheme and close to where I live another large-scale solar PV scheme is being rolled out. Therefore, I do I seek clarification on two points in relation to not think that we need to worry too much about that the Statement. However, I realise that this is a industry once we have stability. I have read a DECC consultation process. First, DECC has come forward Written Ministerial Statement by Edward Davey on with a 500 kilowatt band. The problem we always have the internet. That was perhaps rather naïve of me, but with setting such arbitrary targets is that we then have it seems to be slightly different from the one we have to build the kit to meet the artificial target. Until heard today. I was pleased to read in that Statement recently no technology has stopped at 500 kilowatts, that the department has looked hard at the FITs so you end up building new kit to meet the artificial budget and made the most of the flexibility available boundary. There is a problem here. With regard to the under the levy control framework to ensure that it can digressions that have been talked about on small-scale keep the scheme going. FIT, after you go over the 500 kilowatt point, the amount of money you will get under FIT goes down I very much welcome flexibility and know that it is markedly. The stated aim in the consultation is that welcomed by many people in the industry. If my noble farm-based AD should take in food waste. If it is friend cannot answer my next point fully, I would taking in food waste, it will then start producing more welcome a written response. How much flexibility is power because there are more kilojoules in the food available as regards different types of technology within waste, which will take it over the band. However, the the FITs budget? Can that flexibility be increased as very boundary itself, and the digression that is set in regards the FITs budget and the amount that the ROC there, could bring about a major problem in that system is expected to cost? I welcome this greater people will not take that extra step because they flexibility but would like to understand how far it cannot get the funding. might extend into the future. I appreciate that my noble friend might not have all the detail with her at Secondly, the expression “TLC” was used. “Tender this moment. loving care” is probably a better expression. The same financiers who have had certain problems with solar PV are the ones who are financing AD. It is extremely Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I thank my noble difficult to get any debt financing or equity financing friend for his comments. I think it would be better if I for AD at the moment. This is of particular concern wrote to him on his specific question. I am aware that regarding the statement that if certain trigger points there is definitely flexibility within the department. To are met, there would be a retroactive reduction in the put it another way, one of the advantages of the new feed-in tariff for anything coming on-stream at that arrangements that we are putting in place is that we do point. If we were nearing those targets, that would not have to introduce significant shifts in the way in have a major implication for financiers financing schemes which we change the tariff as the solar PV industry because they would not know which band tariff they 409 Energy: Feed-in Tariffs[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 410

[LORD REDESDALE] As to the noble Lord’s specific point about VAT would be under. I realise that that is a point for exemption on new builds, and whether that can be consultation and that the Minister might not be briefed introduced for retrofitting of older buildings in order on the minutiae of these individual issues, but the to make them more energy efficient, which is another major problem at the moment with anaerobic digestion important part of our strategy, I will certainly pass is that it is a high-risk operation and we need to make that point on to my right honourable friend the Chancellor sure that the financiers are in a position to fund it. We as I am sure the noble Lord will understand that it is therefore need regulatory clarity over the regime. I not possible for me to respond today. very much hope that my noble friend will take these points back to DECC. Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing and Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I am grateful to my Suspicious Betting noble friend for his comments and for widening the Question for Short Debate debate beyond solar. It is worth pointing out that feed-in tariffs are not just about solar PV but, as I 1.56 pm mentioned in my Statement, they are also about micro- CHP, wind and hydro power, and anaerobic digestion, Asked By Lord Moynihan as my noble friend said. As to his specific question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps about bands for AD, they are the same as in the they are taking to address the threat posed to the original scheme, so we are not proposing a change. integrity of the Olympic Games by match fixing However, we have announced today two things: one is and suspicious betting. an outcome from the first phase of the consultation, and the other is the start of a second consultation. I therefore hope that my noble friend will take the Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I declare an interest as opportunity of the new consultation and make his chairman of the British Olympic Association, a member contribution along the lines he mentioned. of the Olympic Board and a director of the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games. Lord Empey: My Lords, I broadly welcome the When IOC president Jacques Rogge stated that Statement. As someone who spent three years as an corrupt betting and not doping was the biggest threat energy Minister in Northern Ireland, I have some to the London 2012 Olympic Games, his opinion was grasp of the problems we face. While the announcement read by some to be surprising and unexpected. From today is one step, we must remember that there is no my perspective, his words were intended to send a silver bullet for resolving our energy problems. Much signal to Governments, the Olympic family and, above of the enthusiasm from various groups conceals the all, the athletes proactively to take seriously a potential fact that we do not really have sufficient non-fossil fuel scourge that could seriously damage the reputation of and nuclear capacity in this country to make the sort the Olympic Games and the integrity of Olympic of impact that we hope for in the long term. One of sport in the 21st century. the reasons why we have to approach this matter from Today’s debate provides us with an opportunity to a different angle is that we need to do more by way of assess how well prepared we are for this threat to making what we have more efficient. Can the noble sporting competition. To date, we have taken only a Baroness ask her right honourable friend the Chancellor few tentative steps towards addressing how sport can of the Exchequer to encourage the retrofitting of best mount a counterattack against suspicious betting buildings to reduce energy demand? One of the levers and event fixing in Olympic and Paralympic sport. at his disposal is VAT. We charge full VAT on the Over recent years, this threat to sport has grown. refurbishment of buildings and no VAT on the Significant changes in the betting market during the construction of new buildings. We need a twin-track past decade have provided increased opportunities for approach—one to develop other energy sources, and those who seek to engage in corrupt betting on sport. another to increase insulation and thereby make buildings Internet betting and new betting platforms—exchange more efficient. Would the noble Baroness be kind and spread betting—have resulted in increased liquidity enough to draw that matter to the attention of her in the betting markets and the opportunity for punters right honourable friend in the other place because the to play the bookmaker and bet on teams, individuals combination of those two directions that we should and horses to lose. Above all, the industry is increasingly travel in is absolutely essential? Otherwise we are designing every conceivable type of bet, and the greatest simply running to follow rising demand when in fact danger comes from bets available on specific events we must make better use of the energy that we are that occur “in play” and are televised globally already producing. The strongest and most effective response in the United Kingdom came from the Parry report—a review Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I am grateful to the of integrity in sports betting. It recognised what has noble Lord for those points and for making the clear become commonplace in the financial sector, where remark that there is not a silver bullet. It is important the misuse of inside information—insider dealing—is to keep that in mind when we look at the range of a criminal offence, and proven breaches are likely to different sources of energy that we are using and result in a criminal prosecution overseen by the FSA. introducing into our wider energy strategy in the UK. That remains a far cry from the world of sport, where We need a range of different sources and that is there is no generic definition of inside information. precisely what we are doing. The lack of any clarity on this issue poses a major 411 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 412 problem for the Olympic movement. As your Lordships for Sport and I sit on that body. Its challenge is to will be aware, there are various types of inside information, ensure that, before London, the Olympic movement and sport rules need to cater for them. The most moves from broad generalisations to a detailed action obvious is match fixing. Being in possession of inside plan and advice to the athletes, international federations information that will bear directly on the outcome of and national Olympic committees alike. the events enables punters to place a bet, safe in the knowledge that it will win. We need ongoing programmes of education and awareness-raising for all sports participants, particularly There are, however, other types of inside information on the dangers of the misuse of inside information. It open to abuse that do not bear directly on the final is regrettable that, in all the forums working on that result of the event. Such information may be used for issue, the principal stakeholders—the athletes—are what is known as spot fixing, whereby inside information not represented, as they are central to resolving that is misused to bet on certain acts taking place during challenge. A handful of athletes may be the problem. the course of an event, although those acts may have The overwhelming majority of athletes—those of the no bearing on the eventual result of the event. The highest integrity and desirous of contributing to the recent conviction of three Pakistan cricketers for arranging fight against threats to their sport—are a vital part of no-balls to be delivered at certain fixed points of the the solution. It is notable that the biggest problem by Lords test match against England is an illustration of far in cricket is in the three jurisdictions where there is that sort of inside information, as they knew those no player association: India, Pakistan and Zimbabwe. no-balls were going to be bowled at that stage of the England innings, which in turn proved very useful For London 2012, the Minister for Sport, Hugh information for corrupt betting purposes. Robertson, and his colleagues are to be congratulated. The system for the London 2012 Games exceeds any The Parry review led to the establishment of the which has been seen before at a multisport event and Sports Betting Group, which advises the British Olympic includes the establishment of a joint assessment unit, Association. I pay tribute to that group, which includes which will monitor betting intelligence throughout the Darren Bailey, Simon Barker, Ian Smith, Paul Scotney, period of the Games. Although the progress which has James MacDougall and Tim Lamb, for its work on been made by the Gambling Commission and the IOC this issue, and its advice to us at the British Olympic should be applauded, there is a need to ensure that the Association and to the athletes that we will select to communication and disciplinary procedures which will represent Team GB. The Parry review made further operate at the time of the Games are robust. At recommendations that are relevant to our debate and present, guidance is needed from the Government on a merit consideration by the Government. The review range of related issues. I put the following questions to called for an ongoing risk assessment process, and the Minister. constant and effective monitoring of betting patterns. This summer that must mean constant monitoring of What is the process for analysing and reviewing the every televised event in the Olympic Games, and cover credibility of any evidence discovered by the joint every heat and every final. assessment unit? Are there plans to monitor live betting The decision to establish a joint working party activity? Will independent experts be recruited to review between the Gambling Commission and one IOC evidence? Will data be collected in advance of the representative to undertake that work is a start, but Games of the betting patterns across both Olympic the 205 national Olympic committees and the Paralympic and Paralympic sports? What procedures will be adopted committees need to know what process will be followed by the IOC to notify national Olympic committees of when strong evidence of irregular or illegal betting is any adverse betting activity within their delegations? discovered. To date, there is no guidance on whether Are there plans to carry out scenario planning and the athlete, the coach or the team chef de mission will testing for the JAU? That will be invaluable for all be immediately informed and what should be done stakeholders to understand how communication processes with that information. The athlete may be innocent, will work and to test the processes for analysing evidence. but there is no guidance for national Olympic committees, It is not clear whether the IOC Ethics Commission let alone established rules and procedures to follow. At has sufficient understanding of suspicious betting and the British Olympic Association, we have embarked the appropriate mechanisms in place to act effectively. on our own far reaching educational programmes and For example, it worries me that the frequent use of the embedded codes of conduct to be signed by every word “irregular” is often linked by the IOC to illegal athlete selected to participate in the British team but, betting. The proper definition should be suspicious for many British athletes, this will be the first time that betting. The reason why that is misleading is that they know the rules regarding the scope of their ability history shows that the challenge for the majority of to place a bet on the Olympic Games; whether their sports is suspicious betting on legal markets. Irregular coaches or families can place a bet on another sport in betting patterns are a normal everyday phenomenon the Olympic calendar; or what to do if they are of all betting markets and can be caused by a number approached to fix a competition, or part of it, and to of factors that are not to do with corruption, including whom to report. the volume of money.Although betting-related corruption A universal code of conduct is required urgently if on illegal markets can be a problem, that is mainly in the scourge predicted by president Jacques Rogge is the sport of cricket. Recent betting-related scandals not to become reality. The IOC’s founding working in horse racing, football and snooker have all been on group on the fight against irregular and illegal sports legal markets, both traditional fixed odds and the betting has made an important start. Both the Minister betting exchanges. 413 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 414

[LORD MOYNIHAN] sporting integrity. They are faced with unprecedented We also need to address the problem that many gambling on sport on a global scale, where international bookmakers operating in the UK do so over the vigilance is needed to combat cheats. internet and are based overseas in places such as In order to put questions to the Government, I will Gibraltar and Malta. That means that they avoid the look at the relatively short history of the Gambling UK licensing regime as well as tax. As a result, those Commission, set up under the Gambling Act 2005, to operators are not statutorily obliged to share information the present day. Under the Act, the commission has with the Gambling Commission and sports governing powers to prosecute offences of cheating and to void bodies. I support Matthew Hancock who, in another bets. Any money paid in relation to illegal bets must be place, is urging the Government to put those proposals returned to the person who paid it. The commission’s into effect as soon as possible. Additionally, the existing work on betting integrity has a licence condition which definition of cheating in the Gambling Act 2005 is requires betting operators to share information of not, in my view, fit for purpose. A specific sports fraud suspicious transactions with the commission and with definition is necessary. The Parry report was once sports governing bodies. again right in that respect. At present, the Gambling Commission regulates I have sought to set out a few essential components most gambling activities in the UK. As the noble of a comprehensive programme to meet the challenge Lord, Lord Moynihan, pointed out, remote gambling set out by the president of the IOC. The central threat is a different proposition. Those operators who offer to the 2012 events is that many of the participants and services to British customers but operate entirely from officials will come from countries where corrupt overseas are not subject to regulation by the commission. individuals will pay a life-changing amount of money, which can be as little as $5,000, without thinking as In 2009, Gerry Sutcliffe, the then Minister for Sport, they know that they can make 10 times that, particularly established a panel of experts to consider the integrity by betting on the exchanges, if they know that someone of sports betting. As a result of their deliberations, a will definitely not be winning. The use of specific sport betting group was set up administered by the inside information that someone will not be winning Sport and Recreation Alliance—long known to us old an event for any number of reasons is gold dust to hands as the CCPR—and it, in its turn, established a those in corrupt betting. set of voluntary procedures to constitute a code of practice. That code seeks to help sports to understand We need a sporting landscape in which universal and react accordingly to the threat posed by betting. rules are formulated to tackle betting-related corruption; a landscape that recognises the importance of ongoing Moving on in this reflective passage, the DCMS’s monitoring and assessment of the risk that all Olympic Consultation on the Regulatory Future of Remote Gambling sports face from corrupt betting, particularly the misuse in Great Britain, which came out in March 2010, of inside information. strengthens the constraints on operators, promising primary legislation for a new licensing system. Following an inquiry by the House of Commons Culture, Media Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, we have a timetable and Sport Select Committee, the Government made a for this debate. I remind your Lordships that when the response promising further action. Most recently, Hugh number seven appears on the clock, that is the end of Robertson, Minister for Sport and the Olympics, asserted the time for a seven-minute speech. that Her Majesty’s Government intend to establish a unit to target suspicious betting at the Olympic Games. All those assurances are designed to give confidence 2.06 pm that the Olympic Games will be comprehensively Baroness Billingham: My Lords, the noble Lord, protected, but can that be the case? Is it not evident Lord Moynihan, is indeed to be thanked for asking that the Government’s response is classically too little, this crucial Question and giving us such a comprehensive too late? With only weeks to go, it would appear that overview. the promised legislation is unlikely to be in place, so With the Olympic Games just a few months away, where will the protection be that is legally enforceable? the threat of match-fixing tactics and suspicious betting Are the Government satisfied with the Sport and grows even greater. In a more perfect world, where Recreation Alliance backing a voluntary code of conduct Corinthian ideals still prevailed, there would be no for the governing bodies? What safeguards does such a need for us to have this debate but, sadly, that dark code provide? And what of the international aspect of shadow threatens to undermine public confidence in illegal betting? What pan-European strategies are in our Games. Cheating appears to many to be endemic place? Do we enlist the co-operation of our European in some sports, with only the most vigorous and neighbours to help us to enforce a clean Olympic determined detection unveiling wrongdoing. Faith in Games? Are we, indeed, already speaking to our European the integrity of athletes and those around them has to neighbours? If recent actions at the European summit be maintained. We bid for the Games not only for the are anything to go by, it is unlikely that the warmest privilege of holding them in London but also to co-operation will be forthcoming. provide a high-profile shop window for sport and to Spreading even further abroad, worldwide co-operation inspire and motivate all of us—perhaps most importantly is essential. What progress have the Government young people—to become physically active. The prospect established with Governments who agree with us about of an Olympics where cheats may be seen to prosper is the importance of integrity in sport? What progress unthinkable. Thus, the role of Her Majesty’s Government has been made by policing units and government is vital. Only they have powers to act as guardian of departments in setting up appropriate strategies for 415 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 416 prevention and detection? All these questions, and legitimate bookmakers, who are trying to make money many more, remain unanswered. The general public out of their business, and accessing them is probably demand those answers. the best tool that the Government have available. They We appear to have a Sports Minister who is rapidly will not want to be ripped off, and those interfering in running out of time and a Government who are running the markets will probably be targeting them predominantly. out of ideas, all of which fills me with total apprehension There is a huge mutual interest here in counteracting regarding the security of the Games. I wait to be told this problem. We have to make sure, as the noble Lord that I am wrong. All the nation’s sporting bodies need pointed out, that the representatives of the sports are a detailed account of the Government’s pledges so looked after and remunerated properly, as that, too, is that we can be reassured that the Games are not only another defence against corruption in sport, as has fit for purpose but a beacon of integrity for all of us to been proven in the past. look forward to. We must take a holistic approach to this problem. Prevention will be better than cure here. It will be 2.13 pm necessary to make sure that all countries that have athletes who are capable of winning or influencing the Lord Addington: My Lords, when I saw the subject various stages are looked after, and the IOC itself is of this debate, I initially thought, “Oh, yes. That will going to have to look after them. How the Government be a problem this time, won’t it?”. When most of us play into this is vital. There is a history of people think about betting, we do not think about the Olympic trying to change things for the purposes of prestige Games or the Games structure; we always think about and profit. Unless the Government encourage greater certain activities. Traditionally it was racing but it has openness so that we are all aware of what is going on, now expanded into football, with possibly boxing or people will find a way through. We need to put pressure the other martial arts being dominant. on those who want to be associated with Britain—for The Olympic Games have not had the best of example, Gibraltar and Malta—and make sure that records, in ancient or modern times, when it comes to we have total access to, and some way of dealing with, the integrity of the events. Not only has there been the irregularities in betting there. That might be a way for great problem of doping but at times question marks those places to reassert how favourably they feel towards have been raised over the impartiality of judges in any Great Britain and how much they want to be involved. sport that requires judging. Casting my mind back to I could put it much more strongly than that but life is when Torvill and Dean were winning everything, I too short. Perhaps my noble friend can give us some remember that one or two judges from the eastern guidance on what we are doing on all these fronts. bloc gave them high scores and were never seen on the One of the primary aims of the Olympics is to international circuit again. There is a tradition of create a legacy. It is a legacy of how to deal with an prestige in controlling what happens. existing problem and a legacy that will continue not Now, we have a new threat, which basically is only in relation to the Olympics but in relation to all money. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, pointed future British sporting events. I hope that when my out—or, at least, he made it clear to me—that the issue noble friend comes to reply she will be able to tell us of money involves not just the medallists. The fact is what progress has been made in getting all those that there is money to be made in an obscure market involved to pass on all the information they can to the by making sure that an athlete who has made the relevant authority. Can she also tell us how soon they grade to be a competitor but is expected to reach only will be able to do that and how they will encourage the the semi-finals does not get that far. One has only to flow of that information? That is really the only way in look at the number of events to realise how many which we can nullify, if not stop, the impact of corrupt attempts can be made to interfere with the odds process betting. by removing the competition at certain points. That is the challenge that faces us. 2.19 pm The noble Lord did an excellent job of going through the activity that has taken place, but I think that the Lord Condon: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, is correct that, as Lord Moynihan, for raising these very important questions has always been the case, we are playing catch-up to and I apologise for the state of my voice. I declare two events. We are in a reactive phase and have been for relevant interests in this debate. First, I am the Senior quite a long time. The previous Government may have Independent Director of G4S Plc, which is the Olympic started this but they still said, “Oh, there’s a bus security contractor, but, more relevant to today’s debate ahead. I’m belting after it”. How much effort are we on a personal and voluntary basis, I am a sports putting in to catch up? Perhaps the Government can integrity adviser to LOCOG. give us some assurances about how they are progressing I do not share some of the pessimism that I have in this respect. The answer to this is surely to be open heard so far. I believe that London 2012 will be with information and share information in order to match-fit to deal with the threat of sports event fixing see where the flows of money and pressure are and for betting purposes. Yes, there is a great deal to be what we should be looking at. done but one should not underestimate the huge amount There was the example of a tennis match a few of work that has been done so far. I am certainly not years ago when the person who was ahead suddenly complacent. Vigilance remains the watchword but a dropped out. On that occasion, people were aware great deal of thought, scenario planning, discussion that something was wrong because it became clear and comprehensive planning has already taken place from the betting markets. We have a huge ally here—the and continues to take place. 417 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 418

[LORD CONDON] What is the level of threat to the Games by the Based on my sports integrity work with international fixers? Sports fixtures are not vanity or status fixers: sports bodies in recent years, I believe and recommend they are not, like a train spotter or a bird spotter, that four things have to be in place to combat fixing seeking to fix an event at an Olympics because it is a for betting purposes. This applies to sport generally, prestigious event. They are grubby, seedy, mainly criminal but certainly to major events like the Olympics. people who look to make their sports fix wherever and whenever they can. They will target the Olympics only First, the criminal law and the sports disciplinary if they think that there are new or very easy opportunities codes must be unambiguous and provide clear guidance to fix compared with the huge volume of betting and and clear offences which may be involved in the event potential fixing that takes place every day of every of fixing being alleged or suspected. There can be no year. ambiguity about what is and what is not allowed either We must be vigilant, we must be prepared and we in the criminal law or in the discipline codes of the must do well, but let us not talk down our Olympics or sports. Certainly, we saw in the prosecution of the over-scare about the size or reality of the threat. There errant Pakistan cricketers how the criminal law could is a bigger threat of fixing to sport generally than at be used successfully in the United Kingdom. For the the Olympics, because the bad guys are not stupid. first time, the International Olympic Committee at They realise that it will probably be harder to fix at the this Olympics has adopted in its code of ethics Olympics than at a routine international event anywhere comprehensive rules against betting and cheating at else in the world in a normal year, provided that they sport. These rules will complement the codes of behaviour can bet and fix. We will remain vigilant and implement that are being enforced by the individual sports federations. a very innovative joint assessment unit. Working together, The regulatory framework, while not perfect, is certainly we will do our very best to minimise the opportunities beginning to be put in place and is more fit for for the fixers to sour the atmosphere and integrity of purpose in the London 2012 Olympics than in any London 2012. YourLordships would expect or demand previous Olympic Games. nothing less. Let us not talk down our Olympics Secondly, there is a need for a comprehensive education unrealistically. Let us be proportionate about the threat programme to raise the awareness of competitors and and the response. I believe that although there is a officials to the risks posed and the methods used by great deal still to be done, a great deal has already been the fixers to groom and entice them into wrongdoing. done, and I am confident that there will be a wonderful Some sports are more advanced than others. They Games. have had to be. Cricket and tennis have very comprehensive education programmes for everyone who plays 2.26 pm international sport. Much has been done but much still needs to be done to raise awareness. I know that Lord Faulkner of Worcester: My Lords, I join others the International Olympic Committee and international in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, on federations know that they must do more in the build-up giving us the opportunity to debate this very important to the Olympics. Raising awareness and education is subject. He may not be aware of the significance of one of the vital ways of combating fixing in sport. today’s date. It was seven years ago exactly—9 February 2005—when the report of the inquiry into the effects Thirdly, intelligence on fixing needs to be gathered, of betting on sport, which I chaired on behalf of the analysed, shared and, if necessary, turned into action. Parliamentary All-Party Betting and Gaming Group, This is where there has been a great deal of work was published. which perhaps has not been given sufficient publicity Your Lordships may remember that that inquiry so far. We have planned, scenario-planned, modelled arose out of the work of the Joint Scrutiny Committee and looked at a variety of situations. During the on the Draft Gambling Bill, on which I served. The Games an innovative joint assessment unit—JAU—will scrutiny committee had had drawn to its attention a be formed. It will meet every day and comprise staff number of allegations over the integrity of betting in a from LOCOG, the Gambling Commission, the number of sports but did not have time to go into Metropolitan Police, the UK Border Agency and the them in detail. The all-party group asked me to chair IOC Ethics Commission. There will be daily meetings the inquiry to look at the incidence of, and potential to gather, share and assess all the relevant information for, irregular and corrupt betting on sports and the and patterns on fixing and gambling coming in from proper use of inside information. We took evidence whatever source—betting agencies, police agencies or from a number of very distinguished witnesses, one of the Gambling Commission. whom was the noble Lord, Lord Condon, who spoke Fourthly, there is a need to have the capacity to take just a moment ago. Our report contained 15 specific swift and effective enforcement action. I can confidently recommendations. I have to tell your Lordships that report that the joint assessment unit has, in its planning while a number of these recommendations have been and modelling, looked at the whole range of possible accepted—by government, sports governing bodies or scenarios for our Olympics that could trigger criminal by betting organisations—several have still to be investigations and/or IOC investigations and individual implemented seven years on. They have a direct relevance sports federation investigations if and when required. to this debate today. Clearly there is no room for complacency, but a great Let me deal with just three of them. We proposed deal of thought and preparation has already taken that there should be a proper definition of cheating. place and will grow in intensity over the next few That call, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, weeks. was echoed in the report of the Sports Betting Integrity 419 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 420

Panel set up by the Government and chaired by Rick and the Gambling Commission, although there may Parry in 2010. Indeed, it was the very first recommendation be one by the time of the Olympics. While it is positive that the panel made in its report. There is no evidence about its operators getting involved with the European that the definition of cheating in the Gambling Act 2005 Sports Security Association, the exchange of information has yet been reviewed, and more needs to be done to is hampered by Gibraltar’s data protection legislation, investigate and prosecute those who are suspected of and licensed operators such as the bookmaker Victor this crime. Chandler are not even members of the ESSA. A second recommendation of ours was that sport The Government are supposed to be tackling this should have a direct involvement in determining the by introducing legislation aimed at shifting regulation type of bets that may be facilitated and that these to the point of consumption, which would have the should be incorporated in future and existing memoranda effect of ensuring that all operators that serve UK-based of understanding between sports and betting customers would have to be licensed by the Gambling organisations. The risk with the Olympics is enormous. Commission. That would bring Gibraltar and the All the major betting organisers have said that they white-listed jurisdictions together and would lessen will be taking bets on all the events. A lot of that will the risk of corrupt or irregular betting practices. Bodies be spot and so called “in running” betting. These are such as the Alderney Gambling Control Commission—I bets on an event as it happens. The odds are adjusted declare a past interest as I advised the commission after the event starts and are continually updated. It is some years ago—have an exemplary record of promoting unlikely that many bets will be placed after the start of integrity. However, that cannot be said of all those the 100 metres race, but on something like a marathon who need to be brought into the net. It is a great pity or an event based on, say, the best of three attempts, that this new primary legislation will not be in place the scope for betting as it takes place is very considerable. for the Olympics. I hope that nothing awful occurs during the Games that could have been prevented had We have seen recently how cricket was corrupted by the Government found time for such a Bill. players taking bribes to do something unusual—in this case bowling no-balls in a test match—to ensure that punters who knew what was going to happen won 2.33 pm their bets. The inquiry that I chaired came to the Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I thank the conclusion that there was no one better to judge what noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, for securing the debate. I sorts of bet should be permitted than the sports will declare my interests; I am vice-chair of the London governing bodies, as they more than anyone should be 2012 athletes committee, I work with LOCOG in able to understand how their sports integrity could be several areas, I sit on the boards of UK Athletics and threatened. I asked the Gambling Commission whether the London marathon, and I am involved in several any progress had been made in this area. The commission other sporting organisations. wrote to me on Tuesday and said that the betting I was fortunate to be in Singapore in 2005 when the operators that it licensed, bid was won. No one underestimated the logistical “face no restrictions as to the types of bets that can be offered”. task of organising 1,000 sessions across 46 sports in I put it to the Minister that this is an unsatisfactory the two Games. It is important as we go through the and dangerous situation, and I hope that she will be landmarks leading up to the start of the Olympic and able to offer some reassurances about it. Paralympic Games—this Saturday will be 200 days away from the start of the Paralympics—that we not The third area is the exchange of information and only celebrate the successes along the way but bear in the licensing of overseas betting operators. The situation mind the challenges that might be thrown in our path. here, too, is unsatisfactory and poses a risk to the There is plenty to celebrate. LOCOG’s diversity integrity of the Olympics. Recommendation 6 in our programme has set new standards for procurement, 2005 report was that all major betting operators should inclusion of disabled people in the workforce, accessibility sign MoUs with the sports on which they based their of venues and customer services. However, we will be business. In some respects this has been a great success. remembered not just for organising a great Games but The Gambling Commission’s licence condition 15.1 for the other work that we do. makes provision for the exchange of information between The threat to the Games is relatively minor, but that licensed operators and sports governing bodies. This should not stop us looking at this important issue. A has generally worked well and has brought to light—and number of stakeholders are focused on tackling match to the Gambling Commission’s attention—a number fixing, both from a sport and criminal perspective: of irregular betting patterns and events, particularly in the IOC, the IPC, LOCOG, the Government, the horseracing. Metropolitan Police and the Gambling Commission. Even though it is now licensed in Gibraltar, the However, support is needed to continue this work. We betting exchange company Betfair made much of the have only to look at the recent court cases in sport to large number of MoUs that it had signed with sports understand that there is a risk that must be managed. governing bodies around the world. The company is Sports people are held up as beacons of virtue but part of the IOC’s working group investigating irregular they also need to be protected, along with the integrity and illegal betting in sport. That is fine, and it seems of their sport. Spectators need to know that medals that Betfair does as much as it would legally be required have been won fairly. to do if it was still licensed in the UK. However, the Work that the BBC published last week, on 7 February, situation with Gibraltar as a whole is less satisfactory. highlighted some of the risks in football. Although There is still no MoU in place between its regulator football is very different from the Olympics, the risks 421 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[LORDS] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 422

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] that these might pose to the integrity of the Olympic should be flagged up as the report makes stark reading. and Paralympic Games. I pay tribute to his great FIFPro conducted a survey of thousands of players in expertise in Olympic and sporting matters. eastern and southern Europe. Almost one-quarter— It is an honour for the UK to host the 2012 Games, 23.3 per cent—said that they were aware of match and we want to do all we can to make them a success. fixing in their leagues, and 11.9 per cent had been We must be prepared to tackle those things that threaten approached to fix a game. What is positive about this the spirit of the Games and to protect those involved is that it recognises that the club licensing system is from the corruption in sport that appears to have not working as well as it could. While as many as become a global issue, as a number of noble Lords 100 clubs were denied licences last season, this gives us highlighted in their contributions. It must be stressed a very important baseline to work on, and sets a mark that while match fixing is a growing dilemma, for of which other sports should be very aware. every event tainted by this scourge there are thousands For the Games this year, rules have been put in that are contested fairly and honestly at all levels and place to tackle the issue. They are published on the across all sports and nations. We must believe that London 2012 website. This is the first time that the those given the opportunity to participate in the Games IOC has done such work in detail for the Games. An will feel privileged to be part of such an historic and e-mail hotline has been set up by the IOC for people to prestigious event, but we cannot ignore the evidence report any suspicious activity. That should be welcomed that there are those who will seek to corrupt the spirit and far more publicity should be given to it. Any sport of fair play and damage the integrity and spirit of disciplinary action at the Games will rightly be led by sport, whatever the event and wherever it is held. the IOC, with the support of the international federations for that sport. It will look at wider sanctions beyond The IOC’s Olympic Charter states that it will, the Games. This is exactly the same process that is “dedicate its efforts to ensuring that, in sport, the spirit of fair followed for anti-doping. Like the noble Lord, Lord play prevails”. Moynihan, I am a passionate advocate for ethical We will do all we can to support this during the sport. London Games. I welcome the announcement from In the same way as we have extensive anti-doping the IOC last week that outlined co-operation in the education for athletes, we should look at international fight against irregular and illegal sports betting. The and ongoing education to discourage other forms of UK Government agree that the most effective way to corruption. I welcome the comments of the noble tackle this threat is to ensure effective collaboration Lord, Lord Condon, about the clarification and guidance between all the parties involved: sports governing bodies, that will be needed for the athletes. That will be betting operators, law enforcement agencies and the incredibly important. A sports person needlessly risking Gambling Commission’s Sports Betting Intelligence their career for short-term financial gain is something Unit. that we should continually and actively discourage, not just in the period leading up to 2012 but far We also welcome the efforts being made within the beyond it. We should learn from the anti-doping sporting world, international federations and national experience and the benefits of intelligence data gathering. Olympic committees to educate those involved about I understand that the DCMS has been leading the the dangers of corruption. My noble friend Lord consultation to add the IOC and other international Moynihan and the noble Lord, Lord Condon, were sporting bodies to Schedule 6 to the Gambling Act among those who emphasised the importance of 2005. If these bodies were on the list, the Gambling education. Those education programmes play an ever Commission would be entitled to share its information more important role in demonstrating the importance with them. I hope that there will be a positive conclusion of integrity. Many use former Olympians and elite to this. athletes to deliver the key message that striving to do your best must always win over bribery and corruption. Finally, I am aware that much of the research The risks cannot be underplayed. Not only can corruption available is around the Olympic Games. What measures have a huge impact on the reputations of individuals will be in place for the Paralympic Games? We know and their sport, it can ruin lives and careers. We have that the risk for the Olympics is relatively low, and I seen evidence of this over the past few months with assume that for the Paralympics it will be lower still, the cases involving the Pakistani cricketers. but as London 2012 raises the bar at all levels, will this be seen as a future potential risk for our athletes or for I need to stress that currently no specific threat to other international athletes around the world? the 2012 Games has been identified and many of the steps to provide effective protection against potential Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, threats are already in place in Great Britain, as the for securing this debate. I look forward to a fantastic noble Lord, Lord Condon, made clear. However, the Games this summer and take the opportunity to wish London Games are the first Games where sports-betting Team GB and Paralympics GB the best of luck. integrity has been elevated to the level of focus that doping has warranted, bringing us a new challenge 2.37 pm that we must address. Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I am grateful The noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, asked what to my noble friend Lord Moynihan for securing this international plans are in place. I will incorporate my debate, which has allowed us the opportunity to consider answer to that in the remarks I make about the Joint how the Government are addressing the problems of Assessment Unit and the other mechanisms that are match fixing and suspicious betting, and the threat going forward. We are working with global representatives 423 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing 424 to look at how we can collectively tackle match fixing. The codes of conduct by sports governing bodies The Council of Europe is proposing a convention that included in the Parry recommendations include provisions European states will work to. that participants shall not use inside information that is not publicly available in relation to betting. My The noble Lord, Lord Condon, spoke about the noble friend Lord Moynihan raised concerns about Joint Assessment Unit. We must pay tribute to the definitions of inside information. It is already within major contribution he has made in establishing the the codes of conduct of the sporting bodies. unit and drawing on his expertise from his distinguished career in the police force. The Joint Assessment Unit The commission has the power to restrict the type will help us meet the challenge and will provide the of bets offered and to approve sporting bodies’ rules mechanism to focus our established, effective protection before allowing betting on those sports. However, methods on the 2012 Olympics. Representatives from based on available evidence, it does not consider that the IOC, the police and the Gambling Commission at the moment intrusive or resource-intensive methods are working in partnership to create the unit and to are warranted. It is working with the betting industry—my collaborate with sports organisations, betting operators, noble friends Lord Addington and Lord Moynihan overseas regulators and the Games organisers, bringing mentioned the importance of working with the betting together a wealth of experience and expertise. These industry. It is in its interest that there is integrity. With initiatives will mean that we are fully prepared to the industry, we are looking to see whether the deterrents assess and determine the appropriate response to to cheating or getting others to cheat can be strengthened. information about potentially corrupt betting activity We look forward to the introduction of the involving Olympic sports. recommendations put forward following our recent The JAU will fully support the key decision-makers review of remote gambling. We recognise that one of in deciding whether further action is justified. If an the benefits that will accrue for tackling sports-betting investigation is deemed to be required, the JAU will integrity matters will be the availability of information decide who should be invited to take the lead. As a through licence conditions. The Government are seeking general rule, the IOC will deal with sports issues under the earliest possible legislative opportunity in a crowded sport rules and if criminality is suspected the police timetable. As far as the Olympics are concerned, we will deal with it under criminal law. It is possible that a believe that we have satisfactory arrangements in place criminal investigation and a sports investigation will for the duration of the Games. run simultaneously depending on the nature of the The European Sports Security Association is planning potential incident. Other relevant organisations will a seminar in March and the audience will include be involved in investigations as and when appropriate betting operators, sports bodies and JAU stakeholders. or necessary. The Minister for Sport will also attend, diary permitting. The aim of the seminar will be to agree how ESSA The JAU may not stop those determined to engage members and sports bodies will collaborate to minimise in corrupt or illegal betting activity, but this collaborative risk and maximise co-operation around Olympic-related approach will ensure that any incidents of sports-betting incidents. integrity can be effectively co-ordinated and managed within existing business-as-usual protocols and processes. We are grateful to have the benefit of the advice and My noble friend Lord Addington, the noble Lord, guidance of the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, Lord Condon, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- on the Olympic and Paralympic Games. The noble Thompson, emphasised the importance of publicising Baroness raised the issue of the Paralympics. She is what we are doing. Certainly, by publicising this approach, right that they are outside the scope and remit of the we hope that those considering engaging in corrupt or Joint Assessment Unit, which will close shortly after illegal betting activity may be deterred from doing so. the Olympic Games closing ceremony, but this is because advice indicated that the market for betting on the The concept of the joint unit is new to the Games Paralympics would be small and has not been offered and provides a unique opportunity for the UK to at previous Games. The risk of sports-betting integrity demonstrate its capability. We can build on the working to the Paralympics is considerably lower than that to practices and protocols already established between the Olympic Games. LOCOG reached agreement with organisations, and to a large extent this capability has the International Paralympic Committee based on already proved successful in tackling corruption. this advice that it is not necessary to have the same The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, raised some key structures in place for the Paralympics to deal with points arising from his valuable 2005 committee report sports-betting integrity. and reminded us of the felicitous anniversary of its The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and the noble publication. His points were echoed in the contributions Baroness, Lady Billingham, asked what will happen if of my noble friends Lord Moynihan and Lord Addington. there is strong evidence of an incident and what guidance The Government accepted the definition of cheating has been given to national Olympic committees. The in the Parry report, and I do hear the concerns raised IOC has asked national Olympic committees to appoint around the Chamber. The review of cheating was not a nominated representative to be responsible for liaison considered a priority at this time, but that is not to say on betting issues that may occur during the Games. that it has been forgotten. We hope to address that The noble Baroness and the noble Lord asked whether issue. Along with the Gambling Commission, we are we will be monitoring the betting information. We will looking at the range of offences related to sports-betting be doing so through the ISM and through working integrity to see that we have the suite of powers with betting operators via the Gambling Commission’s necessary to combat the threat. Sports Betting Integrity Unit. The noble Lord, Lord 425 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 426

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] account. The schedule was drafted within the Home Moynihan, asked whether we will be analysing data Office without, as far as I know, any input from the on betting markets. We will do a full threat assessment judges. So far as I can remember, it was introduced at on all Olympic sports before the Games. He asked a late stage in the House of Lords without any debate whether we will scenario-test the JAU and he was in the House of Commons, but I may be wrong about given a comprehensive answer by the noble Lord, that. In any event, the question arises: what was the Lord Condon. We have already done one day of reason for introducing Schedule 21? Why did the scenario testing and another is planned. There is expertise Government not leave the tariff to the judges? After which will be used to facilitate those tests. all, it is the trial judge who fixes the tariff in all other The UK has proven success in tackling corruption life sentence cases, including manslaughter—why not and threats to betting integrity. We will build on the murder? recommendations in the Parry report to develop viable and sustainable solutions so that we can have a legacy to be proud of. I thank all noble Lords who have taken 3pm part in this valuable debate on an extremely topical One possible reason would have been that the issue of international significance. With so much Government wanted to introduce greater uniformity preparation, we can make a real and positive contribution in the tariff in murder cases. However, that argument to ensure an inspirational Games and a memorable will not run now because we now have the Sentencing year that will show the whole world the UK at its very Council, whose whole purpose and raison d’être is to best. secure uniformity, so far as it can ever be secured, and to ensure some input, at any rate, from experts and 2.49 pm other members of the public. The Sentencing Council is working well. It covers all other crimes—including, Sitting suspended. as I have said, manslaughter—so why not murder? It is surely far better placed to give guidance on the tariff in murder cases than Parliament could ever be because Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of it has a feel for sentencing as a whole and how murder Offenders Bill fits in with other crimes. That is important. Committee (9th Day) (Continued) Another possible reason for Schedule 21 is that the Government wanted to raise the general level of tariffs 2.56 pm in murder cases—in other words, their view was that the judges were being too soft on crime. If that was the intention, the Government could not have been more Amendment 178B successful. The new starting points had an immediate Moved by Lord Lloyd of Berwick effect. The average tariff in all murder cases before 2003—when the 2003 Act came into force—was just 178B: Before Clause 113, insert the following new Clause— over 13 years. The average tariff now is 17.5 years, “Effect of life sentence which is an increase of nearly five years. No wonder In Chapter 7 of Part 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 the prisons are overcrowded and that we now have (effect of life sentence) omit section 269(5) to (7).” more prisoners—I want your Lordships to listen to this—serving life sentences and indeterminate sentences Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, this amendment for the protection of the public than the whole of the also concerns an innovation introduced by the Criminal rest of Europe put together, including Russia and Justice Act 2003. Prior to that Act it was the practice Turkey. How can that be justified? of the judges trying murder cases to write to the Whether Schedule 21 was intended to have such a Home Secretary recommending the minimum period dramatic effect, I do not of course know. Nor do I to be served in prison as punishment. The Lord Chief know whether there was any impact assessment before Justice always added his own comments, either Schedule 21 was enacted. But what we all know is the increasing or decreasing the tariff, as it came to be need to reduce the prison population now by some called. The Home Office usually accepted the judicial means or another. We know that that is the desire of recommendation but sometimes the tariff was increased the Lord Chancellor. Perhaps I may say with great by a year or two. I never in my experience remember it respect that he has made an excellent start by abolishing being reduced. Then came the case of Anderson in the the indeterminate sentence for the protection of the House of Lords, in which it was held that Ministers public. I suggest that he now looks with a very critical could play no part at all in the fixing of the tariff; eye at Schedule 21. sentencing was for the judges and not for the Executive. I said earlier that sentencing is for judges and not Section 269 and Schedule 21 of the 2003 Act was the for Ministers, but at least when the tariff was fixed by ministerial riposte to that decision. The purpose of the Secretary of State in murder cases, he would have Amendment 178B is to repeal Schedule 21. some knowledge of the facts of the particular case. Schedule 21 lays down an elaborate framework Parliament obviously can have no such knowledge. within which trial judges must work when fixing the The attempt to control sentencing from the sidelines, tariff for a particular case. It has four different starting as it were, has two very great dangers. The first is that points: 15 years, 25 years, 30 years and whole life. It you tie the judges down so tight that they cannot do has seven different aggravating factors and seven different justice in the particular case. The second, which perhaps mitigating factors, all of which must be taken into is even more sinister, is that the level of sentencing will 427 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 428 become a sort of political football, with each side An obvious effect of that consequence is that witnesses wanting to appear tougher on sentencing than the who may have suffered extremely traumatic events— other. That may to some extent have already started sometimes the children of the murder victim—do not but if it were ever to become a reality it would spell an have to give evidence in court. Surely, that is an end to the idea of a just sentence for the individual advantage. My view is that the current provisions convict. provide for fairness to victims, fairness to defendants Sentencing must always in the end depend on the and apply a degree of predictability. In my view, they view taken by the individual trial judge, which is why it increase, rather than decrease, public confidence in the is such an anxious process. In my view, the more we system. can leave it to the judge, subject to guidance by the It is a very nice view, and I wish we could say it with Sentencing Council and with as little interference from complete confidence, that we should simply leave murder Parliament as possible, the better. We can make a start sentencing to the judges, with some guidance from the by repealing Schedule 21. I beg to move. Sentencing Council. But that does not go far enough. It is the specificity of the statutory provisions that Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, as has already makes the real difference day by day in criminal courts been said by others, this House should always listen up and down the country, where murder cases are tried with great respect and interest to the noble and learned these days in most instances not by High Court judges Lord. I agree with him to an extent in relation to a but by circuit judges, with what is rather unhappily number of the issues that he has raised. I agree with called a murder ticket. him entirely that the sentence for public protection, the IPP, has become extremely undesirable and has In conclusion, my advice to my noble friend—for resulted in a very large number of people remaining in what little it is worth—would be to leave well alone, prison for far longer than is necessary or even proper. albeit with the option, of course, of changing the I think that he would agree with me in the criticism I guidelines from time to time to meet circumstances. have made consistently with others over the years about the mandatory life sentence for murder. Lord Blair of Boughton: My Lords, I am probably However, I am bound to say that I would urge the the only person currently in the House who has actually Minister of State not to accept this amendment for a carried out murder investigations. When you knock on number of reasons which I at least regard as cogent the door and say you are investigating a burglary, and also hope that the House would. The first is that nobody takes much interest. When you knock on although the noble and learned Lord is absolutely the door and say you are investigating a murder, the right that sentencing is for the judges, as successive reaction is very different. I am fully in support of the Home Secretaries have emphasised—I am pleased to noble Lord, Lord Carlile, because murder is different. see a very distinguished former Labour Home Secretary It is not just any other crime. In my opinion, it is in his place during this short debate—sentencing policy actually the crime by which the public judge the criminal is not for the judges. It is for the Government. justice system. Part of sentencing policy legitimately, I would suggest to your Lordships, is setting the framework in which I find myself somewhat surprised to be arguing sentences for murder are imposed. The provision that against the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, but I the noble and learned Lord wishes to have repealed think that the combination he used of sentences for has had two practical effects, apart from setting clear, murder and indeterminate sentences does not, in this public and consistent sentencing policy, which is well argument, add up, because this is about murder. I am understood by all the judges who apply it. The first is fully in support of almost everything the noble Lord, that in reality, it has diluted, although not completely Lord Carlile, has said. I had expected to speak for removed, the offensive consequences of the mandatory longer; I came to the House to speak to this amendment. life sentence. Those of us who have appeared as counsel In fact, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has said almost for the prosecution and for the defence in many murder everything that needs to be said—except for this emphasis cases know that the effect of the provisions that the that I would place before your Lordships’ House that noble and learned Lord criticises has been to enable murder is different. I believe that Parliament has a those who advise people charged with murder to give a right—indeed, a duty—to set the tariffs from which tariff before the judge gives his or her tariff at the end judges then make their decisions about sentencing. of the case. In reality, people charged with murder are able to be advised as to their likely sentence beyond its Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, lest there being a mandatory life sentence. should seem to be unanimity on these Benches, I The second consequence has been an exponential support the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, in increase in the number of guilty pleas in murder cases. his amendment. Lawyers are able to advise the accused person—sometimes with the help of the judge based on these clear statutory When I started out at the Bar, people did not plead guidelines—as to the sentence that he or she is likely to guilty to murder at all. It was a throwback to the time face. With that knowledge—I speak from experience when hanging was the only sentence that could be as a criminal barrister—I have seen a number of passed and therefore guilty pleas were sometimes simply people charged with murder plead guilty after it has not accepted and a person was told to plead not guilty been made clear where on the statutory tariff they lie. so that the case could be properly proved. We have Certainly, in my early years in practice, it was almost moved very far from that, to the present situation, unheard of for anyone to plead guilty to murder. which I find mechanistic. The gap between the 15-year 429 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 430

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] is best left to the judges. This debate has taken place starting point and the 30-year starting point is far too within this context. I am very grateful to my noble great, in my view. It is mechanistic in that once you get friend Lord Carlile for his intervention because he your starting point, you start to deduct for this and pointed out that what we are debating is where the add for that, and at the end of the day, after this responsibility of Parliament is in setting a framework, complicated arithmetic, you guess at what might possibly while leaving, properly, to the judges the flexibility to be the sentence and advise your client accordingly. handle that framework. I do not find that a very helpful way of going about I am also grateful for the intervention of the noble things. Today there are provisions for obtaining some Lord, Lord Blair, for two reasons. First, he made the guidance from the judge as to the sort of sentence he unique point—certainly in this Bill—that he was going would pass in certain circumstances, and that is a to shorten his speech because somebody else had better way of going. These artificial starting points of made the speech earlier. All I say to the rest of the 15 years and 30 years have been laid down by people House is: “Go thou and do likewise”. Secondly, he with no experience of how the courts work or how made the important point that I think will come back cases are brought to court, and with no personal again and again in our debates—I wrote it down—that contact with clients or anything of that sort, and are murder is “the crime by which the public judge the not the way we should be conducting our sentencing criminal justice system” above all others. Therefore, as policy. I agree with everything that the noble and the noble Lord, Lord Blair, said, it is right that Parliament learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has said. has a duty to set a framework in these matters. I take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, 3.15 pm that it may seem an artificial framework, but in putting Lord Beecham: My Lords, the Front Benches are forward the 2003 Act Parliament allowed judges the occupied by somebody from the lowest levels of the necessary discretion to arrive at any minimum term legal profession and somebody who is even lower from any starting point, which allows exceptional because, as we were told the other day, he has done cases for minimum terms to depart from the norm. It only a short period of legal education. I do not know is not as inflexible as is suggested. The 2003 Act puts about the Minister, but I find myself oscillating between in place arrangements for all minimum terms to be the very eloquent, articulate and lucid explanations of imposed judicially—something which I think has general the various positions. I was totally persuaded by the approval. However, Parliament took the view at the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd—until I heard time that it was right to have statutory guidance on the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. Then—with all due sentencing for murder. The guidance provides for respect to the noble Lord, Lord Blair—I was made to consistency of approach but still gives the court the think more by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. On necessary discretion to deal with each case appropriately. balance, I am grateful that I was not a member of a I note what the noble and learned Lord, Lord jury to be addressed by any of these three eminent Lloyd, said about the Sentencing Council and I pay lawyers because I am not sure we would have reached tribute to its work, but the Government still believe, as a verdict even now—at least I would not. Parliament believed in 2003, that it is right that Parliament On balance, I am persuaded by the arguments of should remain responsible for sentencing guidance for the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, although I am murder. It is for Parliament to reflect what circumstances concerned—as everyone in this House should be—at should be considered as particularly or exceptionally the very disturbing statistic that the noble and learned grave for this, the most serious of crimes. With that Lord, Lord Lloyd, adduced about the number of explanation, I urge the noble and learned Lord to people held on life sentences in this country being withdraw his amendment. greater than that for the whole of the rest of Europe. That is not something about which the English system Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I am grateful to should feel at all complacent. Nevertheless, for what it the noble Lord and I am particularly grateful to the is worth—which is clearly not much—I am persuaded noble Lord, Lord Thomas. If it is right for Parliament by the argument that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to give such guidance, how did judges get on before advanced. It remains to be seen whether it endorses 2003? The answer is that they managed perfectly well. the position that the Minister will give us in a moment. The only effect of the rigid 2003 framework has been to increase the average sentence—I repeat the figure—from The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord just over 13 years to 17.5 years. I do not suppose that McNally): I thank the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, anyone did an impact assessment before the 2003 Act for those comments. I approach any discussions on was passed, but in my submission it cannot be right Schedule 21 with great trepidation because very early that we should suddenly increase the average by so in my ministerial career, I was lured by the eloquence large an amount without considering whether the of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, into framework is responsible for it and considering again agreeing with him about some of the flaws in Schedule 21, whether that increase is actually justified. only to be hauled over the coals when I got back to the The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who made the main department and told that this was not departmental objection to this suggestion, has said that the tariff policy and I was not to listen to such siren voices. provides valuable help to counsel in advising what the I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, likely sentence will be, but how did counsel manage knows that both the Lord Chancellor and I—importantly, before the 2003 Act? The answer is that they managed and less so—come instinctively to the view that judging perfectly well and could manage perfectly well even 431 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 432 today without Schedule 21. I can see that I have not damaged, an issue that we have already touched on in persuaded enough of your Lordships, and in the mean other contexts. What is important when sentencing time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. offenders is to ensure that they are given sentences that are the most beneficial to the public, the victims Amendment 178B withdrawn. and, indeed, to the criminals themselves, as mentioned by my noble and learned friend Lord Judge in an Clause 113 agreed. earlier debate, and indeed by the noble Baroness, Lady Stern. Consideration should also be given to the treatment Amendment 179 programmes or courses that such prisoners should Moved by Lord Wigley undertake when in prison in order to get them to 179: After Clause 113, insert the following new Clause— understand the gravity of their crimes and the impact on their victims. Introducing what are effectively “Abolitionof certain sentences for dangerous offenders (No. 2) mandatory life sentences for a second listed offence All those already serving sentences of imprisonment for will strip the courts of their obligation to consider the public protection for serious offences must either— individual circumstances surrounding each case. (a) have access to relevant rehabilitation programmes, or To return to the matter in hand, I welcome the (b) have their sentences rescinded, abolition of indeterminate sentences for public protection within 30 days of the commencement of this Act.” as provided for in Clause 113, but the reason I have tabled Amendment 179 is to probe the Government Lord Wigley: My Lords, the amendment, tabled in on why abolishing the system cannot also apply my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Judd, retrospectively. As I have said, thousands of prisoners pertains to the abolition of sentences of imprisonment are still languishing in the system without hope of for public protection, more commonly known as IPP rehabilitation or release. Without being directed into sentences, as provided for in Clause 113. Of course, rehabilitation courses, this state of limbo will continue. some of these issues have already been aired in our debates That is why Amendment 179 would require the today. The amendments linked to Amendment 179 in Government to grant these prisoners access to this group contain provisions to apply this abolition rehabilitation programmes or to rescind their sentences retrospectively for offenders serving existing IPP sentences within 30 days of the commencement of the Act. and deal with associated issues. Indeed, they may do I note that a similar principle lies behind the so more comprehensively than my own amendment, amendments in this group tabled by the noble Lord, so I will listen with interest to the noble Lord, Lord Lord Thomas of Gresford, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford, and my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham. However, Amendments 179ZA and 179ZB Ramsbotham when they speak to their amendments would require the Government to refer prisoners serving in the group. I realise that I am very much a layman in existing IPP sentences to the Parole Board unless there discussing these issues and that I stand alongside is compelling evidence that they continue to pose a colleagues with a lifetime of professional experience, significant risk of reoffending. Amendment 180 goes so I am grateful for the indulgence of the Committee. slightly further, calling for the Secretary of State to As I said at Second Reading, IPP sentences were ensure that plans are in place to release within three the result of controversial measures which effectively months of the enactment of the Bill all prisoners introduced life sentences via the back door for a great currently serving IPP sentences. However, the amendments number of offences. Although the courts were able to have in common the desire to end the indeterminate set a minimum tariff which was to be served before a legal limbo in which prisoners serving existing IPP prisoner could apply for parole, I am told that the sentences find themselves. Perhaps I can put it to the system rarely worked as intended. Little thought was Minister in this way. In the football parlance that he given to determining prisoners’ tariffs and not enough used in an earlier debate, he might be far from happy if focus was put on directing IPP prisoners towards a Blackpool player had incurred a red card and did relevant rehabilitation programmes, with the result not know for how long he would be suspended. I urge that over 6,000 prisoners are now lingering in our the Government to consider these amendments. I beg prison system serving indeterminate sentences, over to move. half of whom are past their minimum tariff. Because of the requirements set by the Government, far too few of these prisoners are able to access the Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I spoke about this matter necessary courses which would entitle them to be at Second Reading and have great sympathy with the considered for release. When we consider that these sentiment behind the amendment of the noble Lord, prisoners are serving on average 244 days beyond their Lord Wigley. tariff and that it costs something like £30,000 to keep In common with the overwhelming majority of someone in prison for that period, it is abundantly people involved in the penal system, I am delighted to clear that the system surrounding IPP sentences is see the back of the sentence of imprisonment for costly and, indeed, unacceptable. The Government are public protection. The sentence has been a disaster for certainly right to abolish the IPP sentence, although I criminal justice and for the prison system, which, as a have some misgivings about what will be introduced in number of noble Lords have already commented, is its place. Clause 114 will introduce a mandatory life now clogged, with more than 6,000 IPP prisoners sentence for those convicted of a second listed offence, having no certain release date. It is particularly unjust and my concern is that judicial discretion will be that many of those prisoners who have passed their 433 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 434

[LORD DHOLAKIA] had to prove a negative: that it was no longer necessary tariff dates are on lengthy waiting lists to start offending- for the protection of the public that he should be behaviour courses which could reduce the risk they confined. That was the great weakness. When he tried pose and make them good prospects for release. to prove that he could safely be released, all he could I share the Minister’s concern that everything possible he do was produce certificates that he had completed should be done to speed up prisoners’ access to these courses from programmes that were offered to him in courses so that they do not continue to languish in prison, but the second great weakness was that those prison unnecessarily. Will he consider making one programmes might not be available or a prisoner other change to help the position of those serving IPP would be transferred in the middle of completing a sentences? This matter was referred to also by the course from one prison to another and would have to noble Lord. The Secretary of State’s directions to the start again. That is the basic reason why people have Parole Board include a very strong direction that a been kept after the expiry of their tariff. life-sentence prisoner should normally spend a period The new provision for extended sentences unhappily in an open prison before release. This is a sensible retains the necessity for a prisoner to prove that it is no proposition for many life-sentence prisoners. They longer necessary for the protection of the public that usually spend many years in prison; they are often he be confined, so that great weakness in the existing institutionalised; and a gradual adjustment to freedom system is being continued in the system of extended by going to an open prison will often increase their sentences. chances of a successful release. I propose in this amendment that the whole system should be tightened up in relation to those who are 3.30 pm beyond their tariff date and are serving at the present However, there is another side to this coin. Many time. It should be tightened up to the point of becoming, IPP prisoners have tariffs as relatively short as one or for the first time, a fair system. In subsection (1) of my two years, and many others have tariffs of three, four amendment, there is a duty on the Secretary of State or five years. When they come before the Parole Board, to “immediately refer” the case of a prisoner who has they have not been out of circulation for anything like served the entirety of his tariff to the Parole Board. as long as most life-sentence prisoners and there may That should not be a discretion; he must do it immediately. not be the same pressing need for them to spend a Then it is the duty of the Secretary of State—not a period in an open prison before release. Yetthe Secretary discretion—to release the prisoner, of State’s direction means that the Parole Board will “on license as soon as the Board has directed his release under be very reluctant to release them from open conditions. this section”. As a result, the board may recommend that they go to Subsection (3) attacks most directly the weakness an open prison before release, which will lengthen that I described to your Lordships: their stay by perhaps another two years. Surely this is “The Board must direct P’s release unless the Board is satisfied, unacceptable. on the basis of clear and compelling evidence which post-dates I agree that a period in open prison before release is P’s conviction, that there is a strong and immediate probability appropriate for many IPP prisoners, but it by no that P will commit a serious violent or sexual offence on release”. means applies to all such prisoners. A blanket provision If the tariff is 10 years, the Parole Board should look cannot be applicable to all cases. If the Government not at what happened 10 years earlier but the current were to amend the Secretary of State’s direction to situation and what sort of risk the prisoner now remove the present strong presumption in favour of a threatens the public with. What is the evidence that he period in open prison, it would enable the Parole will commit a serious, violent or sexual offence if he Board to make a decision on the merits of an individual were released? At the moment, we ask the Parole case. I would be grateful if the Minister could consider Board to make that judgement without evidence, relying this suggestion and perhaps report to us before the merely on certificates of programmes completed and next stage of the Bill. so on. A judgment without evidence is otherwise As one who was involved in the review of the parole called a guess. A person’s liberty should not be decided system when the noble Lord, Lord Hurd, was Home by how the Parole Board guesses the future. Secretary, I have no doubt that the Parole Board Subsection (4) suggests that, would welcome this change, which after all fits in with the rehabilitation element of a sentence. “where the Board has declined to direct release,” the Secretary of State must—it is his duty to— demonstrate, Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I have Amendment 179ZA in this group. The Minister can “that provision has been made for P to undergo relevant programmes”. surely take pride in the abolition of IPP sentences and He must also, in the fact that he and this Government are leading “refer P’s case … at 6 monthly intervals until such time as the public opinion in this area. The Minister suggested Board directs P’s release”. earlier that the Government were not given enough In other words, P will not be left languishing with no credit for leading public opinion, but here they most programmes presented to him for an indefinite period certainly are. of time. I happen to know that someone I represented There were many weaknesses to the IPP regime. It has done all his programmes and got all the certificates was imposed in far more cases than was ever expected but he is still being kept in. On what evidence has that when the regime was introduced, but a major weakness been decided? It is just the way that the Parole Board was that a defendant, a convicted person or a prisoner guesses he will behave if he is released. 435 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 436

Most importantly, subsection (5) contains a limit—or which will mean that such prisoners will continue to final stop, or buffer—which means that if a person has clog up the overcrowded prisons for years to come been in prison for five years after his tariff expired he unless something is done. My amendments, and those must be released in the case of specified violent offences, to which I have added my name, are designed to end or after, this situation as quickly as possible, in line with the “8 years post-tariff custody in the case of a specified sexual Government’s aim of reducing the size of the prison offence”. population. That limit for existing prisoners serving IPP sentences Before I speak to the amendments, I beg the indulgence is based on the limit contained in the new provisions of the House while I say something about some of the for an extended sentence. That limit—or final stop, or residual effects of indeterminate sentences, because buffer—is put into Clauses 115 and 116. they must not be disregarded when any meaningful Grouped with this are my Amendments 179BZA consideration of the problem is taken. Prisons are and 179BZB, which attempt to amend Clause 116 to fragile places in that, to work effectively, they depend introduce, again, the need for, on relationships of mutual trust, if not affection, “clear and compelling evidence … that there is a strong and between staff and prisoners. Let those break down immediate probability that P will commit a serious violent or and you are in trouble, which is precisely why it is so sexual offence on release”, important that numbers of prisoners are kept as low for the Parole Board to refuse to allow him to be as possible and that our understaffed and overcrowded released when his tariff has been fulfilled. Similarly, prisons are looked at very carefully. As chief inspector, Amendment 179BZD indicates exactly the same provision. I introduced what I called the healthy prison test, in This is an extremely important matter. More than which I asked whether everyone felt and was safe, 3,000 prisoners are still held after the expiry of their whether prisoners were treated with respect as fellow tariff. We cannot abolish IPP sentences and allow human beings, were enabled to improve themselves by them to remain in prison indefinitely. access to purposeful activity and were enabled to prepare for release and maintain contact with their families. Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I entirely agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, said about IPPs fail every test on every account. The uncertainty congratulating the Government on introducing change. that they introduce has encouraged too many of those I have to admit that, along with many others, I have awarded IPP sentences to take their own lives, and has hated IPPs ever since they were introduced by the also brought on much mental distress. It is inhuman to Criminal Justice Act 2003. award anyone a sentence of 99 years, which is how indeterminate sentence length is described on the internet, Of course there are people from whom the public when the prisoner does not know how or when he may must be protected, some of whom have been awarded qualify for release. It is patently wrong for release to be sentences of natural life. I freely admit that all is not dependent on courses and programmes that simply well with the release of prisoners about whose risk of are not available. I have lost count of the numbers of committing violent or sexual offences prison governors letters of complaint that I have had from families who feel uneasy. Yet I knew of the inability of the Prison simply do not know when their relative or loved one Service to provide sufficient offending behaviour can qualify for release. In other words, IPPs have been programmes for those who require them. Also, 60 per an obscene, inhuman and expensive disaster. cent of lifers serving determinate sentences are already one year over tariff, mainly because of the inability to My amendments are in two parts. Amendment 180 satisfy what the Parole Board requires before sanctioning links with Amendment 179, tabled by my noble friend release, so I simply could not see that such an ill Lord Wigley, in that it seeks to establish a proper end thought through introduction could result in anything game to the issue through a statement from the Secretary other than the prison population being needlessly of State that individual plans have been made for the increased by a steadily increasing number of those release of all those currently serving IPPs. I am not whose release date was deliberately made uncertain. suggesting that all IPP prisoners should be released in Cynically, having become used while Chief Inspector three months, but that plans should be made in that of Prisons to Home Office Ministers and officials period. For them all to qualify for that release, plans living in a virtual criminal justice system and being must ensure that those qualifications are both available unwilling to accept objective advice based on facts, I and satisfied. Urgent plans must be made for the feared that no notice of any outsider warnings would release of the 3,750 prisoners who are already over be taken—and how right I was. Since then, attempts their tariff, which I accept will demand much detailed have been made in this House to alleviate the IPP work, and probably resources. problem by raising the minimum tariff threshold, but However, urgent remedial action is required to put the numbers of those above the original ministerial right a situation that should have never been allowed forecast and those who have exceeded their tariff already to develop, before it costs the taxpayer yet more millions have continued to grow. of pounds. In saying this, I am conscious that the I was therefore delighted to hear the Secretary of Parole Board, under its excellent chairman Sir David State announce that IPPs were to end and see that Latham, is already under extreme pressure, and that confirmed in Clause 113. However, as the noble Lord, any alteration to current arrangements, such as the Lord Thomas, has stated, the Government have not introduction of six-monthly reviews, would need to be said that they intend to alter the arrangements for very carefully considered because, at present, it would those currently serving IPPs to earn their release, be unworkable. I know that Sir David is sympathetic 437 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 438

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] is consistent with Amendment 180 in requiring the to any proposal intended to produce release as soon as Secretary of State to satisfy himself or herself that, at possible after tariff expiry, but it must be realistic. In all times, rather than being allowed to languish in their the best interests of the Parole Board, therefore, and cells sentence plans—including participation in required of enabling the Prison Service to better direct the use programmes—have been made for all determinate and of its limited resources towards protecting the public indeterminate prisoners. That brings me back to the by preventing reoffending, there is all the more reason need for someone to be responsible and accountable to for coherent planning of this release process. the Secretary of State for ensuring that this happens. I cannot repeat that more strongly or often enough. 3.45 pm Regarding coherent planning, I have said many Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I was not involved in times in this House that in every organisation I can criminal law during my practice as a barrister, but I think of, named individuals are made responsible and became very interested in IPPs in 2009 because we accountable for particular functions or activities. That were then dealing with what became the Coroners and is done not least because history tells us that unless Justice Act. I became particularly concerned at this someone is made responsible and accountable for because Dame Anne Owers, who was then the Chief making things happen, nothing happens. The only Inspector of Prisons, together with the Chief Inspector organisation in the world that I have come across of Probation had written an absolutely devastating where that is not the norm is our Prison Service, and it report on the defects of IPP. The defects disclosed in tells. That is why there is such inconsistency in the the inspector’s report are several. There is a lack of performance of individual prisons, and why overall accurate pre-sentence reports on prisoners, which has progress never seems to be made. Management of an led to a number of unjustified IPP sentences being operational organisation is not easy and I am not imposed on people who should not have had them criticising individuals currently in post. I merely point applied at all. There is a lack of resources for the out that management is made a million times easier if Parole Board to enable it to determine the fate of someone is responsible and accountable for overseeing prisoners after the prisoners have passed their tariff the execution of policy. date. This means that the prisoners may languish for I do not believe that the IPP prisoner logjam will be months or even years in prisons where they can not get cleared until and unless someone is made responsible the training that they require before they can apply for and accountable to the Secretary of State for clearing release, so prisoners under IPP are serving what is it. Had such an appointment been made years ago, potentially a life sentence. coherent release plans would already be in existence There have been some improvements of IPP as a and problem areas, such as a shortage of courses, result of amendments made in 2008 to the Criminal identified. Similar appointments are required for all Justice Act 2003, but those improvements were not other types of prison and prisoner, as well as groups of enough. By 2009, it was clear in my view that IPP was lifers, sex offenders and foreign nationals. I know that a disaster. It could work only with a lot more money life would be much easier for Ministers and their put into it; if it did not have that money, it was grossly officials if they could exercise their responsibilities unfair to at least some of the prisoners. The Parole through named, responsible and accountable subordinates. Board does not have the money that it needs and, as In order to give the resolution of the IPP problem the matters now stand, it will not for the foreseeable slightest chance of success, I must therefore ask the future. Minister to consider making such an appointment, which would be recommended by any management I am going to repeat something that I said in a consultant—let alone a frustrated former Chief Inspector debate in 2009 because it covers my views now. I said: of Prisons. “The IPP is wrong in principle and wrong in practice. English courts have a long-standing system of sentencing. Under that I admit that the other amendments to which I have system, only the most serious offences can be punished by life added my name are more prescriptive, and possibly imprisonment. It is unnecessary and wrong to impose a de facto more suited to a code of practice, but this is not a life sentence on convictions for an offence which does not carry virtual problem and the details need to be spelled out. the life sentence. The IPP is even more wrong in practice. It is I do not need to say anything about Amendment 179ZA, wrong because many pre-sentence assessments are inadequate because that has been more than ably spoken to by the and lead to the imposition of IPPs on those who should not be subject to it. It is wrong because many IPP prisoners, especially in noble Lord, Lord Thomas. Amendment 179ZB refers local prisons, have no access to training, without which they to “prisoners”rather than P, because of my unfamiliarity cannot get a hearing before a Parole Board panel”.—[Official with judicial wording, but I am suggesting consideration Report, 28/10/09; col. 1249.] of changing the burden of proof in the case of those Little has been done to correct the situation that whose tariff has expired. At present, prisoners are was so clearly stated by Dame Anne Owers and her required to prove their qualifications for release but colleague. Now we have Clause 117 of the LASPO Bill I am trying to suggest that once a tariff has been and some further amendments from the Government. exceeded, it should be up to the Prison Service to These are not good enough. What would be good prove to the Parole Board why a prisoner should not enough is Amendments 179ZA and 179ZB in the be released. names of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford Amendment 179BZA is consistent with Amendment and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, which are 179BZB which, thanks to the legal background of the nearly identical; I hope that they will be merged in noble Lord, Lord Thomas, expands, updates and is to be time for Report. What the amendments would do has preferred to Amendment 179BZC. Amendment 179BZD already been explained to your Lordships: they would 439 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 440 limit extended sentences only to cases where it had I do not know whether the Minister is aware of the been shown that there was a strong and immediate Answer given by the Minister in the House of Commons probability, based on clear and competing evidence, to a Question from Andy Slaughter MP about the that the prisoner would commit a serious violent or number of people who were likely to be retained in sexual offence. prison as a result of the extended sentence programme. Indeterminate sentences are deeply unsatisfactory. That was a very illuminating document. It showed Amendments 179ZA and 179ZB come more than that around 550 people a year would be sentenced and close enough to this test and I strongly support them. I treated in that way, so that over 10 years 5,500 people also strongly support other amendments including could be in the same position as those who were Amendment 180, to which I am one of the signatories. sentenced under the previous regime. That is a formidable figure and, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, implied in respect of the existing system, a very costly one. I am Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, the real scandal not aware of any impact assessment or analysis of the is that IPP sentences have gone on for so long. The cost of that new proposal. I do not know whether the previous Government had the chance to do something Minister can direct me to any such analysis. In any about them in 2008, as the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, event, the figures suggest a very significant cost. has indicated, when it was already obvious that IPP Having said that, I have difficulties with various sentencing was going badly wrong. I remember tabling amendments that are being proposed. In particular, as an amendment at that time to raise the bar and has already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord therefore reduce the number of those eligible for IPP Ramsbotham, it is asking too much, even if the system sentences. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, was sympathetic were to receive an injection of money, for courses and but met me only half-way. The Conservatives, I am the like to be laid on in such numbers and in so short a sorry to say, opposed the amendment. As a result, we time as to meet the targets that some of the amendments have the situation in which we now find ourselves. I suggest. Therefore, the amendment of the noble Lord, entirely share the indignation so well expressed by the Lord Wigley, to require that within 30 days of the Act noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. I add only that in my coming into force prisoners must have, view something must be done, and done soon. “access to relevant rehabilitation programmes”, or be released simply does not seem realistic.

Lord Beecham: My Lords, it is quite clear that more 4pm people are serving longer sentences under the system There is also an issue about the nature of the introduced by the previous Government than was condition that would be imposed on those currently anticipated. It is also clear that insufficient resources undergoing indeterminate sentences. The amendment were devoted to meeting the requirement that people of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, directs should undergo training and courses, on programmes the board to authorise release, to be provided within the custodial setting, as a condition of release. As the Prison Reform Trust has pointed “unless the Board is satisfied, on the basis of clear and compelling out, the situation is even worse for prisoners who are evidence which post-dates P’s conviction”— mentally ill or suffer from a learning disability. There that is, the prisoner’s conviction— is certainly a very real problem with how prisoners are “that there is a strong and immediate probability that P will to be assisted in demonstrating their fitness to be commit a serious violent or sexual offence on release”. released. That undermines what would potentially have In my submission, there are two problems with that been a valuable way of protecting the public. It wording. The first concerns “probability”. That seems undoubtedly caused the system to fall into disrepute. to me to set the bar too high in respect of the protection The fifth report of the Justice Select Committee of the that the public are entitled to expect. It amounts to House of Commons made a number of perfectly valid almost a certainty that a prisoner would commit an criticisms of those matters. offence. As I say, I think that is too high a bar. Not the least irony of the situation is that referred The second problem, however, concerns the definition to by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. He pointed out of the offences for which the test would be applied. A that the cost of keeping substantial numbers of people serious violent or sexual offence obviously should be in prison is excessive in relation to the cost that would included, but there are many other offences of a very arise from investing in the necessary programmes to serious nature which would not be caught by that assist people to make their case and earn their release. definition. For example, arson and some terrorism I am bound to say that that position is likely to recur offences would not be caught by it. A whole series of in conjunction with the Government’s proposals for things could lead—although they were not necessarily extended sentences. intended to—to serious harm to individuals or the I do not dissent from the critique of indeterminate community at large. They would not be covered by the sentences, although I remain far from convinced that criteria suggested in this amendment. That would extended sentences necessarily resolve the problem. In apply to a number of the proposed new clauses after that context, will the Minister indicate in replying Clause 113 and the relevant amendments to Clause 116. what additional resources are planned for rehabilitation That leaves us with two critical issues. The first is to and the like under the new system? How will people deal with those who are currently held. To do that, it is who remain under the old system be dealt with? As clearly necessary—unless one is simply to open the has rightly been pointed out, a substantial number are doors, as it were—to provide precisely the originally still in that position. intended programmes to facilitate their return to society, 441 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 442

[LORD BEECHAM] the experience of under-resourcing a system that on provided that they can satisfy the Parole Board that their own figures is likely to lead to substantial numbers they are fit to be released. The timetable that is suggested of people being held for a very long period—longer is clearly inappropriate. However, the amendment of than is necessary for their good or society’s good— the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, states: although there will always be some people who will “The Secretary of State shall within three months of enactment have to be held for a long period. report to … Parliament that plans have been made for the release of all … IPP prisoners”. Lord Goodhart: My Lords, would it not be more That is the plans, not the implementation. That seems expensive to keep in prison these people who should to me much more worthy of consideration. not be there rather than going through the relatively As has been explained, the situation in terms of simple processes that would be required to stop them numbers is much worse than was originally envisaged. having to remain on an indeterminate sentence? However, it is somewhat curious that the Northern Ireland experience appears to be rather different. At Lord Beecham: Indeed, but the Government have, the behest of Paul Goggins, who I think was a Northern as I understand it, no real plans to deal with the Ireland Minister in the previous Government, 3,000 people who are still held on indeterminate sentences. correspondence took place between the Northern Ireland My whole point is that just as the previous Government Minister of Justice and, I think, the Lord Chancellor—it did not invest in this sufficiently, this Government are might have been the prisons Minister; I cannot recall in danger of doing the same. Across your Lordships’ who was involved. That correspondence set out a House there would be a view that this investment rather different experience because—one might think, would repay itself in financial terms as well as in social counterintuitively—the number of people who were terms. sentenced to indeterminate sentences in Northern Ireland was significantly less than had been anticipated, whereas Lord McNally: My Lords, as the noble and learned on the mainland, or at least in England and Wales, the Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, situation was the opposite and there were significantly mentioned, IPP was identified long time ago as a train more. I do not know whether that issue has been crash in waiting. I take pride that this Government explored to any extent. The Government might think have taken forward this reform. I note that, as always, that it is not necessary to do so because they are there are those who say it does not go far enough—and changing the system. On the other hand, it might also that is the nature of reform. I was also pleased that be worth exploring in the context of the Government’s there was a certain cross-examination of the noble own new system because unless something is done, on Lord, Lord Beecham, because he is such a reasonable the basis of the figures already available and to which I and likeable person that one would think he was going have referred in terms of the parliamentary Answer, to slip past the responsibility that the previous there will be a steady increase in people suffering the Administration have to carry for bringing in these same sort of regime under extended sentences while reforms. the number on indeterminate sentences declines—one We are trying to disarm a time bomb and it has to hopes more rapidly than hitherto—given the right be done in a careful and measured way. This afternoon, resources. I should very much welcome the Minister’s we have heard unanimity of views on prison reform. I views, either today or subsequently, on that interesting have to say, in trying to argue the case for prison comparison with Northern Ireland. reform to both Houses and the public at large, it Essentially, the Opposition cannot therefore support would be easier if the Labour Party, for which I retain most of the amendments in the group, although we a residual affection, had resumed some of its old and would certainly endorse the view—as the noble Lord, traditional campaigning for penal reform, instead of Lord Ramsbotham, suggested—that there ought to be indulging in a kind of “We’re tougher than you” arms a report to Parliament on the plans for release and race with those who need to be convinced of the case. how they are to be funded. That is a fact of modern political life. The Labour Party of Sydney Silverman and Roy Jenkins is perhaps Lord Lloyd of Berwick: I am grateful to the noble not here any more. Successive Labour Home Secretaries Lord who is pointing out all sorts of difficulties. I am were very keen not have the term “liberal” attached to bound to say that I would be happier if he could at their term of office. Thus we face a problem such as least feel the same sort of indignation that some of us IPP. We are trying to deal with the issue. The National feel at what has already gone wrong, and support the Offender Management Service prisoner co-ordination need to do something about it now. That is for the group is chaired at director level. It certainly does not Government to do. meet the catchiness of the request by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for a named person, but that group is trying to manage the specific problem of IPP Lord Beecham: I share that view. I had hoped that I prisoners. The new specification for offender management, had made it clear that I think the previous Government which will provide for the prioritisation of resources did not invest anything like sufficient resources to based on risk, will be phased in from April 2012. It fulfil their intentions. The intentions were reasonable means that the higher the level of identified risk or the but the means to fulfil them were not provided. That likelihood of reoffending, the higher the level of service has to be acknowledged. However, I am afraid that that will be provided. In particular, that will result in the present Government are, to an extent, following improved targeting of rehabilitative intervention for the same course, if they do not look to avoid repeating IPP prisoners. 443 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 444

To take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord 4.15 pm Dholakia, the key rehabilitation stage for those prisoners There have historically been issues concerning the is being able to demonstrate in open conditions or timely assessment of offenders and the supply of the temporary release that they have learnt new behaviour. necessary level of interventions to meet demand. NOMS NOMS has identified special issues surrounding waiting has already made significant improvements to increase lists for IPP prisoners who have been assessed as the supply of rehabilitation interventions for this group: suitable to be held in open conditions. Work is under almost all IPP prisoners now have comprehensive way to improve the speed of allocation to open prisons, needs assessments; better use is already being made of and a temporary release policy is being reviewed to sentence plans to prioritise interventions for existing consider whether suitable prisoners might be given IPPs where the need is greatest; work is under way to access to temporary release from closed prisons. ensure that programmes can be delivered more flexibly, The Government took the view from an early stage supporting greater access and the inclusion of offenders that IPPs must be replaced, and we have brought with more complex needs such as learning difficulties; forward proposals in the Bill to do so. Once those and a greater number of rehabilitative programmes provisions are commenced, no further IPPs can be have been completed. imposed, even for previous offending. That is a major The Ministry of Justice has recently undertaken step forward. We are now concerned with those who research into Parole Board decision-making in these have or will receive an IPP sentence prior to abolition. cases to better identify barriers to release. The points A range of amendments have been tabled on the that have come out of that research are now being subject, which we are now debating. The noble Lords, taken forward by NOMS in its work on improving Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Thomas of Gresford, support for IPP prisoners. They are points that one have tabled amendments proposing that the Parole might expect: good-quality risk management proposals Board release tests be changed. Their amendments for community life; evidence of sentence progression, also propose the conversion of current IPP sentences including appropriate courses; and time spent in open to automatic release sentences; that cases are referred conditions and on temporary leave. It is clear that back to the Parole Board every six months; and that courses are not the only issue for these prisoners, but it the Secretary of State should be required to demonstrate is one that we will continue to address, alongside that he has made programmes available to prisoners others. A new specification for offender management, who are refused parole. which will provide for the prioritisation of resources based on risk, will take effect from April 2012. Once The amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, embedded, this will result in the improved targeting of proposes that those offenders should either have access rehabilitative interventions for IPP prisoners. to a relevant rehabilitation programme or that their A key rehabilitation stage for these prisoners is sentence be rescinded. By that, I presume he means being able to demonstrate in open conditions or on that they should be given automatic release if programmes temporary release that they have learnt new behaviours. are not available. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, Work is under way to improve the speed of allocation and other noble Lords have asked through another to open prisons, and other measures are being looked amendment for the Government to plan release for into. those prisoners. I should make it clear that, as the statute stands, the Government could not implement any such plans, because the power to direct release Lord Wigley: Before the noble Lord comes to a would remain with the Parole Board. Again, a conversion conclusion, perhaps I may press him on one matter. to automatic release would be required. He has given a list of steps that are currently being taken. When does he assess that all those who are Let me start with the question of the conversion of currently being held back on IPP because of the IPP sentences. We do not think that it is right or non-availability of courses and rehabilitation will have appropriate retrospectively to alter sentences that were been cleared? Have the department or the Government lawfully imposed by the court simply because a policy set themselves a target for getting this done? decision has now been taken to repeal that sentence. That is what would be required to make release automatic Lord McNally: I do not think so, my Lords. I do for those prisoners. Generally, sentences already imposed not think that it would be sensible to go into such are not substantively altered by subsequent legislation. targetry. We are talking about individuals of whom In this case, it would be particularly difficult, as the individual assessments will be made. As I said, we are court would have to impose the sentence with risk disarming a time bomb; we are looking at a backlog management issues in mind. of, in many cases, extremely dangerous prisoners. Several of the amendments relate to the availability Therefore, it is not just, as someone pointed out, a of programmes for IPP prisoners. There is rightly matter of throwing the gates open; this has to be a concern that those currently serving IPP sentences managed process. However, I hope that I have made it should be supported in progressing their sentence and clear that that process is being managed—a point achieving release on licence. The National Offender made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham—and Management Service is using a range of measures to that we are trying to target resources to make sure that improve the progression of those prisoners through this is carried forward with due urgency. sentence, including improvements in assessment, sentence planning, delivery and the parole review process. We Lord Ramsbotham: Is the group that the noble Lord continue to monitor outcomes to ensure that further mentioned making plans for every IPP prisoner or is it improvements are identified and implemented. drawing up general plans for others to follow? 445 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 446

Lord McNally: I do not know the detail of how the understand colleagues who say that we have not gone group is managing its work, but I do know that we are far enough and some of the detailed criticisms in this bringing forward a coherent programme to deal with debate. I go back to the point I made in the earlier what I readily acknowledge is one of the problems to debate. Often these interventions are crafted compromises which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others referred. and, as such, they will have weaknesses and will not go In some of these cases, there was a definite and as far as some would want. However, in getting rid of horrible Catch-22 situation for prisoners. They were IPPs we are removing what is, to put it politely, an being asked to prove their fitness for release by carrying error of judgment in our penal policy, and we are through certain programmes but were then told, “By doing it in a way that disarms the time bomb without the way, those programmes are not available”. That raising public concern. I hope, in those circumstances, Catch-22 was not fair to those prisoners. We are trying that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. to address that problem and focus resources on it. I will write to the noble Lord about whether the group Lord Wigley: My Lords, I have listened carefully to to which I referred is an umbrella strategy group or an the Minister but his opening remarks remain in the action group, but I know that all IPP prisoners will be back of my mind—that IPP was something akin to a assessed carefully and, where progress can be made train crash. The victims of that train crash have been with due concern for public safety, that will happen. I left in the wreckage for an indeterminate time before think that we can manage this safely and constructively these issues will be sorted out. Of course, there has to out of the prison system very rapidly once the legislation be reference to the Parole Board and it may not be is in place. appropriate for some to come out. Surely, when the I should also say that parole hearing processes have Government themselves have recognised that the system become more streamlined, with reviews made through is not fit for purpose for the future, to continue it for a combination of written evidence and oral hearing, those who are incarcerated without any indication of and significant resources have been deployed to increase a timescale is doing them and the whole system a grave the ability of the Parole Board to increase its throughput. disservice. That has significantly reduced backlogs and significantly I accept entirely that my amendment has faults and increased the number of parole dossiers produced on that there may be a version that meets the theme that I time. I note the suggestion that prisoners should be suspect is accepted on all sides of the Committee that referred back to the Parole Board every six months. further work needs to be done by the Government The maximum period that can elapse between the on this. post-tariff review hearing is two years. All decisions I very much hope that between now and Report the on the timing of the next review are based on the Minister will seriously consider how the Government individual circumstances of the particular case. Review can respond to the pressure that has come from so dates are determined, taking into account the extent many sides, with many different suggestions for relieving and nature of the outstanding work that the prisoner the problem. I hope that they will consider this, and needs to do to address his or her risk factors, and that an amendment will be tabled on Report so that where necessary the testing and monitoring needed to their mind is focused on the issue and we do not allow demonstrate the impact and efficacy of the work done the people who listened to the debate in this House to to address those risk factors. have all their hopes snuffed out by the response of the A fixed period of six months between review periods Front Bench. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw would not take into account the prisoner’s individual the amendment. circumstances, so could be counterproductive as it would require prisoner cases to be reviewed without Amendment 179 withdrawn. consideration for the time needed to address the risk factors presented. Currently, review periods of between Amendments 179ZA and 179ZB not moved. 12 months and two years are usual, but review periods of less than 12 months have been set. Clause 114 : Life sentence for second listed offence On the Parole Board’s release test, to which several amendments relate—we are also debating whether Debate on whether Clause 114 should stand part of the Clause 117 should stand part of the Bill—I should say Bill. that I do not think it appropriate at this stage to change the release test in this legislation. Clause 117 Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I say at once that gives the Secretary of State a power to change the Clause 114 seems to be wholly pointless. The only release test, which is set in statute for IPP prisoners explanation for it that I can imagine is that it was a and prisoners serving the new extended sentence. We quid pro quo for the abolition of the indefinite sentence will continue to monitor the progress of current IPP for public protection in Clause 113, in case somebody prisoners and will consider the use of the power to should say that the Government were getting soft on change the release test, alongside careful consultation. crime. Since the official position of the Opposition is The Secretary of State is committed to such prior not to oppose Clause 113—I am very glad about consultation. It is absolutely not the Government’s that—I suggest that the Government might now look intention to use the power to make it harder for again at dropping Clause 114. prisoners to demonstrate reduced risk. However, by In brief, the clause states that if a person commits way of safeguards, the use of this power is subject to an offence for which he serves 10 years in prison, and an affirmative procedure in both Houses. I fully then commits another offence for which he might 447 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 448 expect 10 years in prison, the judge must give him a This provision is strangely contradictory within life sentence unless this would be unjust. It has been itself. It seeks to introduce mandatory life sentences called a mandatory life sentence, but of course it is for people aged 18 or over convicted of a specified nothing of the sort. The clause explains that the judge offence that is serious enough to justify a sentence of has discretion to do what is just, so there is no “must” imprisonment of 10 years or more who have previously about it. So what on earth is the point of Clause 114? been convicted of a specified offence for which they Considering the sort of facts that might give rise to were sentenced to imprisonment for life or for a period a life sentence under Clause 114, the judge would of 10 years or more, yet it raises the possibility of almost certainly have a life sentence in mind anyway. If situations in which defendants who commit two wholly he does impose a life sentence, Clause 114 serves no different scheduled offences separated by many years, purpose. If he does not, because it would be unjust to or even decades, receive mandatory life sentences. On do so, Clause 114 adds nothing. Have the Government the face of it, it looks tough and even unfair. Yet new made any estimate of the number of people who will Section 224A(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 as get a life sentence under Clause 114 who would not be set out in the Bill provides for a series of exceptions given a life sentence anyway under the existing law? that seem to negate the provision in its entirety. So There is no point in replicating existing law with ever what is all this about? If there is a mandatory life more offences. sentence, but the judge thinks it would unjust to impose one, he has the discretion not to do so. I Is Clause 114 perhaps meant to be a deterrent? Let welcome that but, if that is the provision, why bother? us consider that for a moment and imagine a man coming to the end of his 10-year sentence in prison. How will he hear about Clause 114? Will he be warned Lord Clinton-Davis: I find myself in complete agreement by his solicitor, or will he hear about it from a fellow with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. As far prisoner who is something of a barrack-room lawyer? as this clause is concerned, the onus rests firmly with The idea that this would ever act as a deterrent is the Government. Nobody around this Chamber—Labour, ludicrous. Conservative, Cross-Bench or Liberal—disagrees. It is In debating a previous amendment, I warned of the vital for the Government to prove that this clause is dangers of Parliament becoming too closely involved relevant. So far, they have not done that. There has in the sentencing process. At one extreme, it results in been a chorus of disapproval surrounding this clause the sort of sentencing complexity of which we have from all Members who have spoken, and it is virtually plenty of evidence in the Bill. At the other, one finds impossible for the Minister to be able to convince us clauses such as Clause 114 which, as far as I can see, that this clause is relevant. I will listen with bated serve no purpose at all and simply clutter up the breath, as I always do, to what he has to say, but I have statute book. dismissed it already.

Baroness Stern: My Lords, I shall add a few remarks Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, I support the noble to the chorus of disapproval. I welcome the noble and and learned Lord. “Pointless” is a very good description learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, raising this matter. I shall of Clause 114. It is pure political posturing. That is say a little about the use of life sentences in our law. I the trouble in the area of criminal law; there has been have some comparative figures for 2008 about the use too much of this going on in recent years, and to little of life sentences per 100,000 of the general population. effect. Why on earth can we not leave the detailed For England and Wales, including IPP sentences, the business of sentencing in cases such as this, with the figure is 20.9; for life sentences that are not IPP guidelines that already exist, to the people who hear sentences, it is 12.71. I suppose the Minister might the evidence and see the cases: namely, the judges? regard those as reasonable comparators. For France, We have seen far too much interference with the the figure is 0.85, for Germany 2.41, for the Netherlands criminal law. As a practitioner, I go along to courts 0.14 and for Sweden 1.68. On the face of it—and I am and am asked by people in the robing room, “How on reasonably confident about the accuracy of the data— earth did you let this happen? Didn’t you speak up and there is an extraordinarily different way of sentencing point out that it’s a waste of time or has consequences within the criminal law in this jurisdiction from in the that are totally adverse to the interests of justice?”. jurisdictions of continental Europe. Well, I am speaking up, but without a great deal of It says nothing about sentence length—that is an hope that my words will fall other than on stony entirely different question—but it says a great deal ground. Surely we can avoid, at the very least, complicating about the admiration and affection that we seem to the statute book with clauses such as this which do not have for indeterminacy as a way of dealing with people. do anything. In the last group of amendments, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, spoke eloquently about the impact of indeterminacy on the sentenced person. The sentenced 4.30 pm person is left in limbo. He has a very vague idea of Lord Carlile of Berriew: My Lords, I, too, support what the future holds and of whether a sensible plan what has been said by the noble and learned Lord, could be made for the years that stretch ahead. He has Lord Lloyd, and I agree entirely with the noble Baroness, no idea of who has the power to decide whether, if and Lady Mallalieu, that this kind of provision is ill understood when he is released, how those decisions are made and by those who have everyday contact with sentencing how he can have an influence, by behaving in a certain provisions and looks more like political posturing way, on what happens in the future. I would imagine than legislation based on merit. it is a less desirable option than a fixed sentence, where 449 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 450

[BARONESS STERN] Lord McNally: My Lords, it is very difficult debating it is clear to the person and to the family in the outside against the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. He is such a world what the future looks like and how it can be reasonable man who puts forward such reasonable affected. arguments. I sometimes think that surely he must be The proposal for another mandatory life sentence is on the Lib Dem Benches. But no, there he is. highly undesirable and I support the amendment. Lord Beecham: Perhaps the Minister should seek Lord Beecham: My Lords, in replying to the debate treatment for this condition of confusion. on the last group of amendments, the Minister spoke of his residual affection for the Labour Party in terms Lord McNally: I asked for the House of Commons that he might have used about an elderly relative. I half Hansard for 1 November. I could have picked quite a expected him to cross the Floor and offer me a cup of few but I shall pick one for the House to catch the tea and a biscuit. I appreciate his kind thoughts. flavour. As I have said, I have been faced with such On the substance of what we are now discussing, I unanimity today. Mr Sadiq Khan said: am not at all comfortable with the line the Government “No amount of smoke and mirrors can disguise the fact that, are adopting. I entirely support the amendment of by abolishing indeterminate sentences, he”— the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. Either the the Lord Chancellor— Government intend there to be an effective mandatory life sentence policy, which would be wrong in principle; “is risking the safety of communities in each and every or they want to give the impression of so doing when constituency”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/11/11; col. 793.] they do not intend that, which would be disreputable. You can imagine him banging the Dispatch Box and a I am sorry that the noble Lord appears to be lending growl of “Hear, hear” coming from behind him. That himself to either of those approaches. is the difficulty we have in this. Quite frankly, if the The Minister referred to the party to which I belong noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, or perhaps my noble as being less than liberal. Those who know me within friend, was dishing out awards for political posturing, the party I represent, here and elsewhere, know that I it would not be to only one side of the House or to this have not been uncritical from time to time of the penal end of the corridor. I am also a little— policy of the previous Administration, for what that is worth. I was going to say that the noble Lord should Lord Carlile of Berriew: I hesitate to interrupt my perhaps look behind him, but there is only one Peer noble friend who I know will say that in the spirit of from the Conservative Party in the Chamber and she what he said earlier he regards all his Liberal Democrat has the respect of us all. colleagues in this House as entirely reasonable. But I recall a poster in the 2005 election—I cannot this is a bicameral Parliament. What are we to read resist reminding noble Lords about this—which I noticed into the fact that, as it happens in this House as we en route from Heathrow Airport into London, which debate this important matter, there are seven Liberal said: Democrats on the Government side of the House and “What would you think if a bloke out on licence raped your one Conservative Peer, who deserves credit for being daughter?”. here. If the Conservative Party is really committed in That was the style of an election campaign of the the way in which he has explained from that quotation, noble Lord’s current partners. I do not for a moment should its Peers not be here to say so? imagine that he or his colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches, then or now, would approve of that approach. Lord McNally: That perhaps is why my noble friend One can debate the merits or otherwise of various is on the Back Benches rather than enjoying the pleasures party policies but that does not get us very far. However, of coalition government. He will also know that— the Minister talked about disarming a time bomb. The fear is that while he is disarming a time bomb he might Lord Carlile of Berriew: What is that supposed to be planting a minefield in terms of the effect of this mean? provision about life sentences if it is carried out. Here I must plead guilty, before being charged, to inadvertently 4.45 pm misleading the House when I gave statistics earlier, which I said related to the extended sentences. In fact, Lord McNally: I am sure that my noble friend’s they related to the mandatory sentence provision. But comments will be noted in the proper places, particularly they are the statistics and they demonstrate that over at reshuffle time. a decade around 5,500 would be added to the very There will always be debates about whether or not long-term sentences if this provision should pass into sentences are deterrent. I am not usually in favour of law. A great proportion of them would involve serious mandatory sentencing and deterrent sentencing, but it crimes of violence against a person, as well as other is hard to deny that deterrent sentencing could have an offences. That was the substance of the Written Answer effect. It is not just a matter of some barrack-room to the parliamentary Question to which I referred. lawyer; a hardened criminal would know the consequences The noble and learned Lord has more than adequately, of reoffending. I share a lot of the concerns about as one might expect, disposed of the case, such as it is, putting declaratory sections into Bills, but sometimes for Clause 114. I hope that the Minister today will they have their place. agree that it should cease to form part of the Bill or at This clause introduces a new mandatory life sentence the very least undertake to look again at the provision for an offender who has committed a second very and come back at Third Reading on the issue. serious sexual or violent offence. Both offences must 451 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 452 be so serious as to merit a determinate sentence of As I said before, we have a sense of schizophrenia 10 years or more. The offence must also be contained about this. Perhaps I may finish with a quote from in Schedule 15B to the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which Sadiq Khan: is inserted by Schedule 16 to this Bill. Schedule 15B “Through their “two strikes” policy, the Government absolve contains the particularly serious offences that were in themselves totally of any responsibility to identify the serious, Schedule 15A to that Act. Previous Schedule 15A violent offenders who are most likely to reoffend. That should be convictions make offenders eligible for IPPs and EPPs done at the time when the first sentence is handed down for the even if they have not reached the two-year tariff commission of a heinous crime”.—[Official Report, 1/11/11; col. 796.] threshold. Schedule 15B also includes further child sex and specific terrorism offences, and the offences of There is not much sense of rehabilitation or reform causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable there. We have to deal with a serious set of reforms adult. and what we get is headline-grabbing attacks on the basis that we are going to let out violent criminals and The new mandatory life sentence will affect only the rest of it. That is why I hope that some of the unity those who have committed, on separate occasions, two that was shown earlier about penal reform will resolve very serious sexual or violent crimes deserving a custodial itself around support for the Government as we try to sentence of 10 years or more. That is a small number manage these proposals through the House. of offenders, but this provision is intended to provide reassurance to the public that very serious repeat offenders of this type can expect to be held indefinitely Lord Clinton-Davis: I am much obliged to the noble in prison. Lord. I am totally unconvinced by the arguments put forward here, and not for the first time. When is the Minister going to address the issue that has been Lord Thomas of Gresford: Perhaps the LOCs can raised around the Committee? have the chance to deal with this question. Has any analysis been carried out as to how many people would be liable to a life sentence for committing an Lord McNally: When is the noble Lord going to go offence that is not subject to a life sentence at the down the corridor and talk to Sadiq Khan and the moment? It seems that they would be liable to a life other spokesmen from the Labour Party and engage in sentence if the maximum was only 10 years. Has an a serious debate about penal reform? analysis been carried out of how many offences in the schedule do not carry a life sentence? Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I am grateful for the support of those who have spoken, particularly the Lord McNally: My Lords, an impact assessment noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, with her reference to was made and I think they were talking about 20 cases political posturing, which to me seems to be what this a year. clause really is; on this occasion for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for which I am always grateful, and for that of the Official Opposition. But Lord Thomas of Gresford: That is not quite the once again it was my noble friend Lady Stern who put point that I am making. It may be that only 20 people her finger on it with those extraordinary statistics that would be sentenced to life imprisonment, but would she gave us of the comparison between those serving they be sentenced to life imprisonment under this life sentences in England and Wales and all other clause, when for the actual offence that they had countries. We seem to have a thirst for life sentences, committed, they could not receive a life sentence? In and that bears out the only statistic that I gave earlier. other words, many serious offences carry life sentences; I shall say it again: we have more people serving life some do not. I would be grateful for an analysis as to sentences and indeterminate sentences than the whole how many would not have a life sentence were it not of the rest of Europe put together. for this clause. Clause 114 agreed. Lord McNally: As far as I understand it, the second serious offence would carry a life sentence. Amendments 179A and 179B Moved by Lord McNally Lord Thomas of Gresford: That is not what it says, as I understand it—perhaps the LOCs can help him. 179A: Before Schedule 16, insert the following new Schedule— “SCHEDULE Lord McNally: That is as I understand it, but I will Amendments of the Criminal Justice Act 2003: transitional and consequential provisions write to the noble Lord if I am wrong. The other point that has been made—but of course if you try to be Part 1 reasonable, you are derided—is that the courts are Transitional provisions exempted from imposing the mandatory life sentences 1 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows. where they believe it is unjust to do so in all circumstances. 2 After section 267 insert— It is the policy intention that offenders who have “267A Application of Chapter 6 to pre-4 April 2005 cases committed two serious offences not carrying life sentences Schedule 20A (which modifies certain provisions of this Chapter will be liable to the mandatory sentence. However, we as they apply to persons serving a sentence for an offence committed cannot at this moment assess the likely numbers that before 4 April 2005) has effect.” would be affected by that. 3 After Schedule 20 insert— 453 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 454

“SCHEDULE 20A Section 267A (2) In particular, the following provisions apply. Application of Chapter 6 of Part 12 to pre-4 April 2005 cases (3) If the Secretary of State has not referred the person’s case 1 In this Schedule— to the Board under section 39(4) or 44A of the 1991 Act, the Secretary of State must refer the case under section 255C(4). “the 1991 Act” means the Criminal Justice Act 1991; (4) If the Secretary of State has referred the person’s case to “the commencement date” means the date on which section the Board under section 39(4) or 44A of the 1991 Act, that (Simplification of existing transitional provisions) of the Legal reference is to be treated as if it had been made under section Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2011 comes 255C(4). into force. (5) A determination of a reference under section 39(4) or 2 Paragraphs 3 to 9 apply in relation to any person serving a 44A of the 1991 Act is to be treated as a determination under sentence for an offence committed before 4 April 2005, whenever section 256(1). that sentence was imposed (see section (Simplification of existing transitional provisions)(1) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and (6) If the person is released on licence, the duration of that Punishment of Offenders Act 2011). licence is determined in accordance with section 249 (subject to paragraphs 17, 19 and 26 of Schedule 20B). 3 (1) Any relevant period is to be treated, for the purposes of section 240ZA, as if it were a period for which the offender was 7 Rules made by virtue of section 42 of the 1991 Act have remanded in custody in connection with the offence. effect as if made by virtue of section 257. (2) “Relevant period” means any period which would (but for 8 (1) A person removed from prison under section 46A of the the repeal of section 67 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967) be a 1991 Act before the commencement date is to be treated as having relevant period within the meaning of that section (reduction of been removed from prison under section 260. sentences by period spent in custody etc). (2) Section 260 applies as if, in subsection (7)— 4 Section 246 applies as if, in subsection (4)— (a) the reference to an extended sentence imposed under (a) the reference in paragraph (a) to section 227 or 228 were section 227 or 228 were a reference to an extended a reference to section 85 of the Sentencing Act; sentence imposed under section 85 of the Sentencing Act, and (b) the reference in paragraph (d) to paragraph 9(1)(b) or (c) or 10(1)(b) or (c) of Schedule 8 were a reference to (b) the reference to the appropriate custodial term paragraph 4(1)(d) or 5(1)(d) of Schedule 3 to the determined under section 227 or 228 were a reference to Sentencing Act; the custodial term determined under section 85. (c) in paragraph (g)— 9 An order made under section 47 of the 1991 Act is to have effect as if it were an order made under section 243. (i) the reference to section 246 included a reference to 10 Section 264 applies as if the definition of “custodial section 34A of the 1991 Act, period” in subsection (6) included, in relation to an extended (ii) the reference to section 255(1)(a) included a sentence imposed under section 85 of the Sentencing Act, one-half reference to section 38A(1)(a) or 39(1) or (2) of the of the custodial term determined under that section.” 1991 Act, and Part 2 (iii) the reference to section 255(3) included a reference Consequential amendments to section 38A(3) of the 1991 Act; Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 (c. 47) (d) the references in paragraph (h) to sections 248 and 254 4 In section 2(4)(b)(i) of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act included references to, respectively, sections 36 and 39(1) 1984 (power to provide for prisoner to be treated as having been or (2) of the 1991 Act; and released) for “section 244 or 246” substitute “Chapter 6 of Part 12”. (e) in paragraph (i), the words from “in the case of” to Criminal Justice Act 1991 (c. 53) “relates” were omitted. 5 In Schedule 12 to the Criminal Justice Act 1991, omit 5 (1) Where the person has been released on licence under paragraphs 8 to 13 (transitional provisions relating to the coming Part 2 of the 1991 Act or under section 60 of the Criminal Justice into force of Part 2 of that Act). Act 1967 before the commencement date, the person is to be Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (c. 43) treated as if the release had been under this Chapter. 6 Schedule 1 to the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (transfer of (2) In particular, the following provisions apply. prisoners within the British Islands) is amended as follows. (3) A licence under section 34A of the 1991 Act is to be treated 7 In paragraph 8 (transfers to Scotland)— as if it were a licence under section 246. (4) A licence under section 36 of the 1991 Act is to be treated (a) in sub-paragraph (2)(a), after “246 to 264A” insert “, as if it were a licence under section 248. 267A and 267B”; (5) Any condition of a licence specified under section 37 of the (b) in sub-paragraph (4)(a), for “and 249 to 264A”substitute 1991 Act is to have effect as if it were included under section 250 “, 249 to 264A, 267A and 267B”. (whether or not the condition is of a kind which could otherwise 8 In paragraph 9(2)(a) and (4)(a) (transfers to Northern be included under that section). Ireland), for “and 254 to 264A” substitute “, 254 to 264A, 267A (6) Where the licence is, on the commencement date, subject to and 267B”. a suspension under section 38(2) of the 1991 Act, the suspension Extradition Act 2003 (c. 41) continues to have effect for the period specified by the court 9 The Extradition Act 2003 is amended as follows. despite the repeal of that section. 10 In section 59 (return of person to serve remainder of (7) A licence under section 40A of the 1991 Act is to be treated sentence), in subsection (11)— as if it were a licence under this Chapter, except that in respect of any failure (before or after the commencement date) to comply (a) omit paragraph (a); with the conditions of the licence, the person is liable to be dealt (b) in paragraph (b), for “section 244” substitute “Chapter 6 with in accordance with section 40A(4) to (6) (despite the repeal of Part 12”. of that section) and is not liable to be dealt with in any other way. 11 In section 132 (return of person to serve remainder of (8) Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the duration of the sentence), in subsection (11)— licence. (a) omit paragraph (a); 6 (1) Where a person has been recalled under Part 2 of the 1991 Act before the commencement date, the person is to be (b) in paragraph (b), for “section 244” substitute “Chapter 6 treated as if the recall had been under section 254. of Part 12”. 455 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 456

12 In section 153B (return of person in pursuance of undertaking), 6 In section 260 (early removal of prisoners liable to removal in subsection (10)(a)— from UK), after subsection (7) insert— (a) omit sub-paragraph (i); “(8) Paragraphs 36 and 37 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases) make further provision about early removal of certain (b) in sub-paragraph (ii), for “section 244” substitute prisoners.” “Chapter 6 of Part 12”. 7 In section 263 (concurrent terms), after subsection (4) insert— Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44) “(5) This section is subject to paragraphs 21, 31 and 32 of 13 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows. Schedule 20B (transitional cases).” 14 In section 240A(1)(a) (crediting of periods of remand on 8 In section 264 (consecutive terms), after subsection (7) bail), omit the words “committed on or after 4th April 2005”. insert— 15 (1) The repeal by section 25 of the Criminal Justice and “(8) This section is subject to paragraphs 21, 22, 31, 32 and 33 Immigration Act 2008 of provisions in section 247 of the Criminal of Schedule 20B (transitional cases).” Justice Act 2003 comes fully into force. 9 After section 267A (inserted by Schedule (Amendments of (2) Accordingly, in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Criminal the Criminal Justice Act 2003: transitional and consequential Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Commencement No.2 and provisions)) insert— Transitional and Savings Provisions) Order 2008 (S.I. 2008/1586), “267B Modification of Chapter 6 in certain transitional cases omit “and 25”. Schedule 20B (which modifies this Chapter so as to restate, 16 Omit section 262 and Schedule 20 (prisoners liable to with minor amendments, the effect of transitional provisions removal from United Kingdom). relating to the coming into force of this Chapter) has effect.” 17 Omit section 265(1A) (restriction on consecutive sentences 10 After Schedule 20A (inserted by Schedule (Amendments of for released prisoners). the Criminal Justice Act 2003: transitional and consequential Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 (c. 28) provisions)) insert— 18 Omit paragraph 46 of Schedule 10 to the Domestic Violence, “SCHEDULE 20B Section 267B Crime and Victims Act 2004. Modifications of Chapter 6 of Part 12 in certain transitional cases Police and Justice Act 2006 (c. 48) Part 1 19 Omit paragraph 33 of Schedule 13 to the Police and Justice Introductory Act 2006. Interpretation Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (c. 4) 1 (1) The following provisions apply for the purposes of this 20 In the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, omit— Schedule. (a) sections 20(4)(b), 26 to 28, 32 and 33(1), (3), (5) and (6); (2) “The commencement date” means the date on which (b) paragraph 29(2) to (5) of Schedule 26; section (Simplification of existing transitional provisions) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2011 (c) paragraphs 8 and 9 of Schedule 27. comes into force. Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (c. 25) (3) “The 1967 Act” means the Criminal Justice Act 1967. 21 In the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, omit— (4) “The 1991 Act” means the Criminal Justice Act 1991. (a) section 145; (5) A “section 85 extended sentence” means an extended sentence under section 85 of the Sentencing Act and includes (in (b) paragraph 43 of Schedule 22. accordance with paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 11 to that Act) a Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Commencement No.1 sentence under section 58 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. and Transitional Provisions) Order 2008 (S.I. 2008/1466) (6) In relation to a section 85 extended sentence, “the custodial 22 Article 3 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 term” and “the extension period” have the meaning given by that (Commencement No.1 and Transitional Provisions) Order 2008 section. (S.I. 2008/1466) is revoked.” (7) References to section 86 of the Sentencing Act include (in 179B: Before Schedule 16, insert the following new Schedule— accordance with paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 11 to that Act) “SCHEDULE section 44 of the 1991 Act as originally enacted. Criminal Justice Act 2003: restatement of transitional provisions (8) A “1967 Act sentence” is a sentence imposed before 1 October 1992. 1 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows. (9) A “1991 Act sentence” is a sentence which is— 2 In section 244 (duty to release prisoners on licence), after subsection (3) insert— (a) imposed on or after 1 October 1992 but before 4 April 2005, or “(4) This section is subject to paragraphs 5, 6, 8, 25 and 28 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases).” (b) imposed on or after 4 April 2005 but before the commencement date and is either— 3 In section 247 (release on licence of prisoner serving extended sentence), after subsection (7) insert— (i) imposed in respect of an offence committed before 4 April 2005, or “(8) In its application to a person serving a sentence imposed before 14 July 2008, this section is subject to the modifications set (ii) for a term of less than 12 months. out in paragraph 15 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases).” (10) A “2003 Act sentence” is a sentence which is— 4 In section 249 (duration of licence), at the end insert— (a) imposed on or after the commencement date, or “(5) This section is subject to paragraphs 17, 19 and 26 of (b) imposed on or after 4 April 2005 but before the Schedule 20B (transitional cases).” commencement date and is both— 5 (1) Section 258 (early release of fine defaulters and contemnors) (i) imposed in respect of an offence committed on or is amended as follows. after 4 April 2005, and (2) After subsection (2) insert— (ii) for a term of 12 months or more. “(2A) Subsection (2) is subject to paragraph 35 of Schedule 20B (11) Where an offence is found to have been committed over a (transitional cases).” period of two or more days, or at some time during a period of (3) In subsection (3) after “in this section” insert “or in two or more days, it is to be taken for the purposes of this paragraph 35 of Schedule 20B”. Schedule to have been committed on the last of those days. 457 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 458

Explanation of dates (4) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that the person has 2 The following dates (which are mentioned in this Schedule) served one-half of the sentence or (in the case of a section 85 are dates on which changes to the law relating to the release and extended sentence) of the custodial term before 9 June 2008. recall of prisoners came into force— (5) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that— 1 October 1992 is the date on which Part 2 of the Criminal (a) the person is serving the sentence by virtue of having Justice Act 1991 came into force; been transferred to the United Kingdom in pursuance of 30 September 1998 is the date on which certain provisions of a warrant under section 1 of the Repatriation of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force; Prisoners Act 1984, 4 April 2005 is the date on which this Chapter came into force; (b) the warrant was issued before 9 June 2008, and 9 June 2008 is the date on which section 26 of the Criminal (c) the offence (or one of the offences) for which the person Justice and Immigration Act 2008 came into force; is serving the sentence corresponds to murder or to any 14 July 2008 is the date on which certain other provisions of offence specified in Schedule 15 as it had effect on that Act came into force; 4 April 2005. 2 August 2010 is the date on which section 145 of the Coroners 5 (1) As soon as a person to whom paragraph 4 applies has and Justice Act 2009 came into force. served two-thirds of the sentence, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence under this paragraph. Part 2 (2) If the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence, the Prisoners serving 1991 Act sentences etc reference in sub-paragraph (1) to two-thirds of the sentence is a 3 (1) This Part applies to certain persons serving a 1991 Act reference to two-thirds of the custodial term. sentence. (3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in place of section 244 (2) This Part also applies to a person serving a 2003 Act (release on licence of prisoners serving 12 months or more). sentence which is— Duty to release on direction of Parole Board (a) a section 85 extended sentence, or 6 (1) After a person to whom paragraph 4 applies has served (b) an extended sentence imposed under section 227 or 228 one-half of the sentence, the Secretary of State must, if directed before 14 July 2008. to do so by the Board, release the person on licence under this paragraph. (3) But this Part does not apply to a person who— (2) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (a) has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 (1) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for Act, the protection of the public that the person should be confined. (b) has been recalled to prison, and (3) If the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence, the (c) (whether or not having returned to custody in references in this paragraph to one-half of the sentence are consequence of that recall) is unlawfully at large on the references to one-half of the custodial term. commencement date. (4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 244 Duty to release on licence at two-thirds of sentence (release on licence of prisoners serving 12 months or more). 4 (1) This paragraph applies to a person in relation to whom— Release on licence at one-half of sentence: section 85 extended sentence prisoners (a) all the conditions in sub-paragraph (2) are met, and 7 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if— (b) the condition in any one or more of sub-paragraphs (3) to (5) is met. (a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed on or after 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005, (2) The conditions in this sub-paragraph are that— (b) the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence in (a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed respect of that offence, before 4 April 2005, (c) the person has not previously been released from prison (b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment on licence in respect of that sentence, and imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October (d) paragraph 4 does not apply to the person. 1992 but before the commencement date, 8 (1) As soon as a person to whom paragraph 7 applies has (c) the sentence or (in the case of a section 85 extended served one-half of the custodial term, it is the duty of the sentence) the custodial term is for a term of 4 years or Secretary of State to release the person on licence under this more, and paragraph. (d) the person has not previously been released from prison (2) Sub-paragraph (1) applies in place of section 243A or 244, on licence in respect of that sentence. as the case may be (release of prisoners serving less than 12 months, (3) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that the offence (or or serving 12 months or more). one of the offences) in respect of which the sentence was imposed Duty to release unconditionally at three-quarters of sentence is— 9 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if— (a) an offence specified in Schedule 15 (specified violent (a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed offences and specified sexual offences) as it had effect on before 30 September 1998, 4 April 2005, (b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment (b) an offence under any of sections 11, 12, 15 to 18, 54 and imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October 56 to 63 of the Terrorism Act 2000, 1992, (c) an offence under any of sections 47, 50 and 113 of the (c) the sentence is for a term of 12 months or more, Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001, (d) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of (d) an offence under section 12 of the Sexual Offences Act the 1991 Act, and 1956, (e) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has (e) an offence of aiding, abetting counselling, procuring or not been recalled after that date). inciting the commission of an offence listed in any of (2) But this paragraph does not apply if the court by which the paragraphs (b) to (d), or person was sentenced ordered that section 86 of the Sentencing (f) an offence of conspiring or attempting to commit an Act (extension of periods in custody and on licence in the case of offence listed in any of paragraphs (b) to (d). certain sexual offences) should apply. 459 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 460

10 As soon as a person to whom paragraph 9 applies would Licence to remain in force to three-quarters of sentence (but for the earlier release) have served three-quarters of the 16 (1) This paragraph applies to a person to whom paragraph 4 sentence, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the applies. person unconditionally. (2) This paragraph also applies to a person if— Duty to release on licence at three-quarters of sentence (a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed 11 (1) This paragraph applies to a person who— before 4 April 2005, (a) has been convicted of an offence committed on or after (b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005, imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October 1992 but before the commencement date, (b) is serving a sentence of imprisonment for a term of 12 months or more imposed in respect of that offence, (c) that sentence is for a term of 12 months or more but less than 4 years, and (c) has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 (d) the person has not previously been released from prison Act, and on licence in respect of that sentence. (d) has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been (3) This paragraph also applies to a person if— recalled after that date). (a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed (2) But this paragraph does not apply if the person has been before 4 April 2005, released and recalled more than once. (b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment (3) Nor does this paragraph apply if the sentence is a section 85 imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October extended sentence (paragraph 13 applying to such a case instead). 1992, 12 As soon as a person to whom paragraph 11 applies would (c) that sentence is for a term of 12 months or more, (but for the earlier release) have served three-quarters of the sentence, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the (d) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of person on licence. the 1991 Act, and Release on licence: re-release of section 85 extended sentence (e) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has prisoners not been recalled after that date). 13 (1) This paragraph applies to a person who— (4) But this paragraph does not apply if the person has been released and recalled more than once. (a) has been convicted of an offence committed on or after (5) Nor does this paragraph apply if— 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005, (a) the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence, or (b) is serving a section 85 extended sentence imposed in (b) the court by which the person was sentenced ordered respect of that offence, that section 86 of the Sentencing Act (extension of (c) has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 periods in custody and on licence in the case of certain Act, and sexual offences) should apply. (d) has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been (6) If a person has been— recalled after that date). (a) released under section 34A of the 1991 Act or section 246 (2) But this paragraph does not apply if the person has been (home detention curfew), and released and recalled more than once. (b) recalled under section 38A(1)(b) of the 1991 Act or 14 (1) If a person to whom paragraph 13 applies is serving a section 255(1)(b) (no longer possible to monitor curfew), sentence with a custodial term of less than 12 months, it is the the release and recall are to be disregarded for the purposes duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence as of this paragraph. soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) have served 17 (1) Where a person to whom paragraph 16 applies is the period found by adding— released on licence under section 244 or paragraph 5 or 6, the (a) one-half of the custodial term, and licence shall remain in force until the date on which the person would (but for the release) have served three-quarters of the (b) the extension period. sentence. (2) If a person to whom paragraph 13 applies is serving a (2) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to any revocation under sentence with a custodial term of 12 months or more, it is the section 254. duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence as (3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in place of section 249 soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) have served (duration of licence). the period found by adding— Period for which licence to remain in force: section 85 extended (a) three-quarters of the custodial term, and sentence prisoners (b) the extension period. 18 This paragraph applies to a person who— Release of section 227 or 228 extended sentence prisoners: Parole (a) has been convicted of an offence committed on or after Board direction 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005, 15 (1) This paragraph applies to a person (“P”) who is serving (b) is serving a section 85 extended sentence imposed in an extended sentence under imposed section 227 or 228 before respect of that offence, and 14 July 2008. (c) has not previously been released from prison on licence (2) Section 247 (release of prisoner on licence) applies to P in respect of that sentence. with the following modifications. 19 (1) Where a person to whom paragraph 18 applies is (3) The Secretary of State must not release P under subsection released on licence and the custodial term is less than 12 months, (2) of that section unless the Board has directed P’s release under the licence shall remain in force until the end of the period found that subsection. by adding— (4) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (a) one-half of the custodial term, and (3) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for (b) the extension period. the protection of the public that the person should be confined. (2) Where a person to whom paragraph 18 applies is released (5) As soon as P has served the appropriate custodial term, the on licence and the custodial term is 12 months or more, the Secretary of State must release P on licence, unless P has previously licence shall remain in force until the end of the period found by been recalled under section 254. adding— 461 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 462

(a) three-quarters of the custodial term, and Sentence of more than 12 months imposed before 1 October 1992 (b) the extension period. 24 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if— (3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) are subject to any revocation (a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment under section 254. imposed before 1 October 1992, (4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 249 (b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months, and (duration of licence). (c) the person has not previously been released from prison Concurrent or consecutive terms on licence in respect of that sentence. 20 Paragraphs 21 and 22 apply where a person (“P”) is serving (2) This paragraph also applies to a person if— two or more sentences of imprisonment imposed on or after (a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment 1 October 1992 and— imposed before 1 October 1992, (a) the sentences were passed on the same occasion, or (b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months, (b) where they were passed on different occasions, the (c) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of person has not been released under Part 2 of the 1991 the 1991 Act, and Act or under this Chapter at any time during the period beginning with the first and ending with the last of those (d) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and occasions. has not been recalled after that date). 21 (1) This paragraph applies if each of the sentences is a 1991 (3) But this paragraph does not apply if, on the passing of the Act sentence. sentence, an extended sentence certificate was issued (see paragraph (2) Sections 263 and 264 (consecutive and concurrent terms) 27). do not apply in relation to the sentences. (4) If a person has been— (3) For the purposes of any reference in this Chapter, however (a) released under section 34A of the 1991 Act or section expressed, to the term of imprisonment to which P has been 246 (home detention curfew), and sentenced or which, or part of which, P has served, the terms are (b) recalled under section 38A(1)(b) of the 1991 Act or to be treated as a single term. section 255(1)(b) (no longer possible to monitor curfew), (4) If one or more of the sentences is a section 85 extended the release and recall are to be disregarded for the purposes sentence— of this paragraph. (a) for the purpose of determining the single term 25 (1) It is the duty of the Secretary of State to release a mentioned in sub-paragraph (3), the extension period or person unconditionally under this paragraph— periods is or are to be disregarded, and (a) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 24(1), as (b) the period for which P is to be on licence in respect of soon as the person has served two-thirds of the sentence; the single term is to be increased in accordance with sub-paragraph (5). (b) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 24(2), as soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) (5) That period is to be increased— have served two-thirds of the sentence. (a) if only one of the sentences is a section 85 extended (2) After a person falling within paragraph 24(1) has served sentence, by the extension period; one-third of the sentence or six months, whichever is longer, the (b) if there is more than one such sentence and they are Secretary of State must, if directed to do so by the Board, release wholly or partly concurrent, by the longest of the the person on licence under this paragraph. extension periods; (3) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (c) if there is more than one such sentence and they are (2) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for consecutive, by the aggregate of the extension periods. the protection of the public that the person should be confined. 22 (1) This paragraph applies where two or more sentences are (4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 244 to be served consecutively on each other and— (release on licence of prisoners serving 12 months or more). (a) one or more of those sentences is a 1991 Act sentence, 26 (1) Where a person to whom paragraph 24 applies is and released on licence under paragraph 25, the licence shall remain in force until the date on which the person would (but for the (b) one or more of them is a 2003 Act sentence. release) have served two-thirds of the sentence. (2) Section 264 does not affect the length of the period which (2) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to any revocation under P must serve in prison in respect of the 1991 Act sentence or section 254. sentences. (3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in place of section 249 (3) Nothing in this Chapter requires the Secretary of State to (duration of licence). release P until P has served a period equal in length to the aggregate of the length of the periods which P must serve in Extended sentence of more than 12 months imposed before 1 October relation to each of the sentences mentioned in sub-paragraph (1). 1992 (4) If P is also serving one or more 1967 Act sentences, 27 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if— paragraphs 32 and 33 apply instead of this paragraph. (a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment Part 3 imposed before 1 October 1992, Prisoners serving 1967 Act sentences (b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months, 23 (1) This Part applies to certain persons serving a 1967 Act (c) on the passing of the sentence an extended sentence sentence. certificate was issued, and (2) But this Part does not apply to a person who— (d) the person has not previously been released from prison (a) has been released on licence, on licence in respect of that sentence. (2) This paragraph also applies to a person if— (b) has been recalled to prison, and (a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment (c) (whether or not having returned to custody in imposed before 1 October 1992, consequence of that recall) is unlawfully at large on the commencement date. (b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months, (3) In this Part, references to release under Part 2 of the 1991 (c) on the passing of the sentence an extended sentence Act include release under section 60 of the 1967 Act. certificate was issued, 463 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 464

(d) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of (b) that single term is to be treated as if it were a 1967 Act the 1991 Act, and sentence. (e) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has (4) If one or more of the sentences is a section 85 extended not been recalled after that date). sentence— (3) In this paragraph “extended sentence certificate” means a (a) for the purpose of determining the single term certificate was issued under section 28 of the Powers of Criminal mentioned in sub-paragraph (3), the extension period or Courts Act 1973 (punishment of persistent offenders) stating that periods is or are to be disregarded, and an extended term of imprisonment was imposed on the person under that section. (b) the period for which P is to be on licence in respect of the single term is to be increased in accordance with 28 (1) It is the duty of the Secretary of State to release a sub-paragraph (5). person to whom paragraph 27 applies on licence under this paragraph— (5) That period is to be increased— (a) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 27(1), as (a) if only one of the sentences is a section 85 extended soon as the person has served two-thirds of the sentence; sentence, by the extension period; (b) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 27(2), as (b) if there is more than one such sentence and they are soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) wholly or partly concurrent, by the longest of the have served two-thirds of the sentence. extension periods; (2) After a person falling within paragraph 27(1) has served (c) if there is more than one such sentence and they are one-third of the sentence or six months, whichever is longer, the consecutive, by the aggregate of the extension periods. Secretary of State must, if directed to do so by the Board, release the person on licence under this paragraph. (6) If P is also serving a 2003 Act sentence, sub-paragraph (3) is to be applied before the period mentioned in section 263(2)(c) (3) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (concurrent terms) or paragraph 33(3) (consecutive terms) is (2) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for calculated. the protection of the public that the person should be confined. (4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 244 33 (1) This paragraph applies where two or more sentences are (release on licence of prisoners serving twelve months or more). to be served consecutively on each other and— Additional days (a) one or more of those sentences is a 1967 Act sentence, and 29 (1) Prison rules made by virtue of section 257 may include provision for applying any provisions of this Chapter, in relation (b) one or more of them is a 2003 Act sentence. to any person falling within sub-paragraph (2), as if the person (2) Section 264 does not affect the length of the period which had been awarded such number of additional days as may be P must serve in prison in respect of the 1967 Act sentence or determined by or under the rules. sentences. (2) A person falls within this sub-paragraph if— (3) Nothing in this Chapter requires the Secretary of State to (a) the person was released on licence under section 60 of release P until P has served a period equal in length to the the 1967 Act before 1 October 1992 and the licence was aggregate of the length of the periods which P must serve in in force on that date, or relation to each of the sentences mentioned in sub-paragraph (1). (b) the person was, on that date, serving a custodial Part 4 sentence, Provisions applying generally and (in either case) the person has forfeited any remission of Licence conditions the sentence. Concurrent or consecutive terms 34 (1) This paragraph applies to any licence (a “Parole Board licence”) which falls within sub-paragraph (2) or (3). 30 Paragraphs 31 to 33 apply where a person (“P”) is serving two or more sentences of imprisonment and— (2) A licence falls within this sub-paragraph if— (a) the sentences were passed on the same occasion, or (a) it is or was granted to a person (“P”) on P’s release (at any time) on the recommendation or direction of the (b) where they were passed on different occasions, the Board, and person has not been released under Part 2 of the 1991 Act or under this Chapter at any time during the period (b) P has not been released otherwise than on such a beginning with the first and ending with the last of those recommendation or direction. occasions. (3) A licence falls within this sub-paragraph if— 31 (1) This paragraph applies where each of the sentences is a 1967 Act sentence. (a) it is or was granted to a person (“P”) on P’s release (at any time), and (2) Sections 263 and 264 (consecutive and concurrent terms) do not apply in relation to the sentences. (b) condition A or condition B is met. (3) For the purposes of any reference in this Chapter, however (4) Condition A is that, before 2 August 2010, the Board expressed, to the term of imprisonment to which P has been exercised the function under section 37(5) of the 1991 Act of sentenced or which, or part of which, P has served, the terms are making recommendations as to any condition to be included or to be treated as a single term. inserted as a condition in a licence granted to P (including by 32 (1) This paragraph applies where— making a recommendation that no condition should be included in such a licence). (a) one or more of the sentences is a 1967 Act sentence, and (5) Condition B is that, before 2 August 2010— (b) one or more of them is a 1991 Act sentence. (2) Sections 263 and 264 (consecutive and concurrent terms) (a) P was released on licence under section 33(2), (3) or (3A) do not apply in relation to the sentences mentioned in sub-paragraph or 35(1) of the 1991 Act, and (1). (b) the Board exercised the function under section 37(5) of (3) For the purposes of any reference in this Chapter, however that Act of— expressed, to the term of imprisonment to which P has been (i) making recommendations as to the inclusion or sentenced or which, or part of which, P has served— insertion of a condition in a licence granted to P (a) the terms mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) are to be (including by making a recommendation that no treated as a single term, and condition should be included in such a licence), or 465 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 466

(ii) making recommendations as to the variation or Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I can assure my noble cancellation of any such condition (including a friend the Minister that this is a reasonable amendment recommendation that the condition should not be from a reasonable Liberal Democrat. varied or cancelled). (6) The Secretary of State must not— The purpose of the amendment is twofold. It would retain the current position whereby prisoners serving (a) include on release, or subsequently insert, a condition in a Parole Board licence, or extended sentences are released after serving half their sentence, but it would also give the Minister an (b) vary or cancel any such condition, opportunity to explain the reasoning behind the provision except in accordance with directions of the Board. in the Bill that offenders with extended sentences Fine defaulters and contemnors should in future have to serve two-thirds of the custodial 35 (1) This paragraph applies to any person if— term in custody before release compared with serving (a) the person has been committed to prison or to be half the term, as they do at present. detained under section 108 of the Sentencing Act— Up to now, the point of an extended sentence has (i) in default of payment of a sum adjudged to be paid not been to increase the period that offenders spend in by a conviction, or custody. Extended sentences are intended to make (ii) for contempt of court or any kindred offence, sure that, when offenders who pose a risk to the public (b) the person was so committed or detained before 4 April are released, they are subject to a longer period than 2005, and usual of post-release supervision on licence. This means (c) the term for which the person was committed or that they are subject to restrictive conditions and detained is 12 months or more. controls at the same time as being provided with (2) As soon as a person to whom this paragraph applies has constructive, rehabilitative help. If offenders breach a served two-thirds of the term, it is the duty of the Secretary of condition on their licence, they can be recalled to State to release the person unconditionally. prison. It is a very useful provision that means that (3) Sub-paragraph (2) applies in place of section 258(2) (early society maintains control over the offender’s behaviour release of fine defaulters and contemnors). for a long period. Early removal of prisoners liable to removal from UK However, let me say where I see the anomalies. 36 (1) This paragraph applies to any person who— First, the Bill increases the time that an offender given (a) has served one-half of a sentence of imprisonment, and an extended sentence spends in prison. This means (b) has not been released on licence under this Chapter. that the time that he or she spends under supervision (2) The reference in sub-paragraph (1)(a) to one-half of a will be correspondingly reduced, which does not make sentence is— much sense. Surely supervision is an essential element (a) in the case of a section 85 extended sentence, a reference for the rehabilitation of offenders. The second anomaly to one-half of the custodial term; is that, as the Bill stands, a court wishing to impose an (b) in the case of an extended sentence imposed under extended period of post-release supervision will be section 227 or 228, a reference to one-half of the able to do so only if it passes a sentence that also appropriate custodial term. increases the length of time spent in custody before 37 (1) If a person to whom paragraph 36 applies— release. My noble friend must have an explanation as (a) is liable to removal from the United Kingdom, and to why this provision is necessary. (b) has not been removed from prison under section 260 If a judge does not want to increase the time that an during the period mentioned in subsection (1) of that offender spends in prison but wants to make sure that section, he or she has an extended period of supervision on the Secretary of State may remove the person from prison release, why should they not be able to order this as under that section at any time after the end of that period. they can under the current provisions for extended sentences? (2) Sub-paragraph (1) applies whether or not the Board has directed the person’s release under paragraph 6, 15, 25 or 28.”” If the Government are not willing to leave the release point at half the sentence as at present, will my Amendments 179A and 179B agreed. noble friend agree to consider giving courts discretion over the issue? I am sure that this matter can be looked Schedules 16 and 17 agreed. at before Report. In essence, will my noble friend consider amending the Bill so that a court can specify Clause 115 agreed. that the offender must serve either half or two-thirds of the sentence in custody depending on the circumstances Schedule 18 agreed. of the individual case? The Minister and I are agreed on the final outcome that we all desire. Surely my formula will offer this. I beg to move. Clause 116 : New extended sentences: release on licence etc Lord Beecham: Perhaps the Minister could indicate Amendments 179BZA to 179BZD not moved. what assessment has been made of the effect of the new extended sentence provision on prisoner numbers and the time that prisoners will spend in custody, as Amendment 179BA well as the cost. In so far as the indeterminate sentence Moved by Lord Dholakia will, one hopes, reduce numbers when various changes 179BA: Clause 116, page 95, line 40, leave out “two-thirds” have been made, this measure is likely, like the mandatory and insert “half” provision, to drive up both numbers and costs. Has an 467 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 468 assessment been made of that? If it leads to extra of their determinate sentence in prison. That is needed costs, how will the Government manage the process? to enhance public protection and deliver public confidence. The noble Lord is to be congratulated on the amendment. It will provide more time for offenders and NOMS to The current provisions simply do not make sense in work towards rehabilitation. Overall, offenders who the context of what purport to be the Government’s receive the new EDS sentence will have a finite, rather objectives. than a possibly indefinite, time in prison. That may be to the end of their sentence, before release. On that basis, it is justifiable for prisoners who have committed Lord McNally: My Lords, perhaps I may clarify the such dangerous offences to serve two-thirds of the point raised by my noble friend Lord Dholakia. The custodial term in prison. two-thirds release point applies only to the new extended We will also step up rehabilitative support for dangerous sentence. The court must specify both the custodial offenders to help them to progress to release as soon term and an extended licence period when it imposes as it is appropriate. We are introducing compulsory an extended sentence. The offender is released or can intervention plans for these offenders while they are in apply for release at the two-thirds point of the custodial prison so that they are supported to change their ways term. The extended licence will start when the custodial and rehabilitate themselves. Sentence plans will include term is concluded, so offenders will receive an appropriate appropriate interventions, assessed as necessary, to licence period regardless of the point during the custodial address the risk that the offender presents. Offenders term at which they are released. I listened to my noble who engage with these requirements should be able to friend’s idea about discretion. This is not something demonstrate reduced risk. I hope, therefore, that my that courts would have discretion on. They will decide noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment. on the appropriate custodial term plus an appropriate extended licence. Yet, as always with suggestions from Lord Beecham: My Lords, on a point of clarification, my noble friend, I will ponder this one between now the Minister referred to the impact assessment disclosing and Report. that 2,500 fewer people would be in prison. Does that relate to the overall package or to this particular 5pm amendment? That was the point that I was raising. The impact assessment of our reforms anticipated Lord McNally: It relates to the overall package and, that, in the long term, 2,500 fewer prison places are in that wonderful save-all term, the long term. As we projected than in the current statute. That of course are already seeing, predicting prison numbers is not an presumes that we will make progress in clearing the exact science. IPP numbers. As we heard, there have been numerous issues with IPP sentences, and we have proposed a Lord Beecham: Perhaps not now, but could the replacement regime. A key element of that regime is Minister advise me on the implications of this amendment the new extended determinate sentence—the EDS—for in terms of numbers, as opposed to the generality to dangerous offenders. This sentence will apply where which he has referred? an offender commits a sexual or violent offence that merits four years’ imprisonment or more, or has very Lord McNally: I do not have a specific number, but serious previous offending, as with the current IPPs I will write to the noble Lord and make it available to and EPPs, and the court finds that he is dangerous. the House. The court will set a custodial term, some of which may be served on licence, and also a further extended Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to my period of licence set by the court. The offender will noble friend the Minister for the explanation that he always serve at least two-thirds of the custodial term offered. The purpose of my amendment is not to dwell in prison. In the most serious cases, release will not be too much on whether it is half or two-thirds of the automatic: the offender will have to apply to the sentence; all I care about is the need to look carefully Parole Board for release. This may mean that they stay at whether the supervision period is affected by the inside until the end of the term. decision. I would be very grateful if the Minister could My noble friend Lord Dholakia proposed that the write to me before Report. It may be that his explanation minimum time in prison that offenders on the new will suffice in this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the extended sentence should serve is one half of the amendment. custodial term rather than the two-thirds that the Bill Amendment 179BA withdrawn. provides for. It is true that the current extended sentence has release at the halfway point, as do ordinary Clause 116 agreed. determinate sentences. Headline sentences should be equivalent to ordinary determinate sentences, whereas Schedule 19 agreed. an IPP tariff is half the equivalent determinate sentence. These offenders will have a longer minimum time in Clause 117 : Power to change test for release on prison than they would had they received an IPP or licence of certain prisoners ordinary determinate sentence. However, in June last year the Government committed to introducing a Amendment 179C tougher determinate sentencing regime to replace IPPs. Moved by Lord McNally A key part of that tougher regime is that those on 179C: Clause 117, page 96, line 3, leave out “an IPP prisoner public protection sentences, now that they are no or an extended sentence prisoner” and insert “a discretionary longer liable to receive IPP sentences, will spend more release prisoner” 469 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 470

Lord McNally: My Lords, if Clause 117 is to stand Applying the same approach to the release of a part of the Bill, Amendments 179C to 179F will prisoner, the Parole Board should not be asking whether ensure that the Secretary of State’s power to amend by the prisoner has complied with this or that test; it order the release test that the Parole Board must should be asking: “Is there any reason why we should follow when considering the release of prisoners applies not release this prisoner? Is evidence being produced consistently to all categories of determinate sentence for us to look at in reaching a conclusion on whether prisoner whose release is determined by the board. this prisoner can be safely returned to the community?”. Currently, the clause applies to the release test for IPP That is the reason why I support Clause 117—in the and extended sentence prisoners but there are some hope that the second alternative, in subsection (1)(b), other types of determinate sentence which also include is adopted, and that the Lord Chancellor will then a period of parole eligibility and are subject to the very quickly see the necessity of changing the Parole same release test. We think the order-making power to Board’s test to one that is far fairer: “Is there any change the test should apply equally in those cases. reason why, after serving the period of the tariff that These amendments therefore propose to extend the the judge has imposed”—which is supposed to be order-making power to the other categories of determinate what the judge would have awarded by way of a sentence to which it does not currently apply. These sentence had he taken that course—“this person should are: first, the 1991 Act prisoners serving four years or not be released?”. I commend this clause and suggest more who are parole eligible between the half and that the power should be exercised very quickly. two-thirds points of sentence; and, secondly, the 2003 Act extended sentences imposed before 14 July 2008, Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I gave notice of my when release between the half and end points of the intention to oppose that the clause stand part in order custodial period is at the discretion of the Parole to be consistent with my now failed hope that the Board. This is simply about ensuring the order-making Government would accept the earlier amendments on power in this clause is applied consistently to all the IPP. As they did not, it is obviously irrelevant now determinate sentences when the same release test is to say that the clause should not stand part. I shall used. I beg to move. therefore not oppose it. For all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, outlined, the clause contains Lord Thomas of Gresford: YourLordships will recall some very important measures which provide the Secretary that in connection with an earlier amendment I referred of State with tools to bring about many of the things to the existing test—which will continue to apply that we hope will happen to the IPP sentence. under this Bill—for the Parole Board to apply in Lord Beecham: My Lords, this amendment is perfectly considering whether a person should be released. The sensible. Before we get to Third Reading it would existing test is that the board is satisfied that it is no perhaps be helpful, if it is at all possible, to have a clear longer necessary for the protection of the public that indication of how the Government propose to proceed. the prisoner should be confined. Your Lordships will Presumably it will not be long before the affirmative recall the criticisms that I made of that. In his reply, resolution procedure is put into place once the Bill is the Minister said that Clause 117 gives power to the enacted, and that might just allay some doubts around Lord Chancellor to change that test. I am a little bit the House and outside it about what is likely to puzzled, and I ask my noble friend to explain why that happen. Subject to that, we certainly take the view that power to change the test is in there. Furthermore, I am it is sensible to proceed on the lines set out in the very pleased that it is, because I think that the present amendment. test is neither fair nor just. The power to change the test is in subsection (1), where, Lord McNally: I am grateful for that. As to what I “the Parole Board … must direct the prisoner’s release if it is was watching on Saturday afternoon, being a gentle satisfied that conditions specified in the order are met, or … must soul, I take the view that rugby is a gentleman’s game do so unless it is satisfied that conditions specified in the order are met”. played by hooligans. I am not as keen on watching I know that my noble friend, as he earlier confessed, it—the violence is too much. I am glad, however, that is a follower of Blackpool football club, but at the everybody has noticed the point of Clause 117. It goes weekend he may have had the opportunity of watching back to what I said before in that analogy about the Wales versus Ireland rugby match at Lansdowne disarming the time-bomb. We need a little flexibility Road. An incident there perfectly illustrates the situation. and a chance to see how the present probation rules There was a pile-up over the line and the referee, apply, but this gives the Secretary of State the opportunity instead of making the decision and awarding the try to adjust what we are doing in the light of the experience which Wales had so clearly scored, called in the TMO of the overall reform of IPP. I am therefore grateful and said, “Has the try been scored—yes or no?”. for the support from all sides of the House and I hope Immediately, that illustrious and brilliant commentator that Clause 117 will stand part of the Bill. Jonathan Davies, a brilliant player in his own day, Amendment 179C agreed. said, “He’s asking the wrong question. The question he should ask is: ‘Is there any reason why this try Amendments 179D to 179F should not be awarded?’”. By asking it as, “Has he Moved by scored it—yes or no?”, the referee was pushing the Lord McNally decision over to the TMO; but if he were to ask 179D: Clause 117, page 96, line 8, at end insert— the second question, he would be taking responsibility “(1A) “Discretionary release prisoner” means— by saying, “I am going to award the try unless you tell (a) an IPP prisoner, me that there is a reason why I should not”. (b) an extended sentence prisoner, or 471 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 472

(c) a person to whom paragraph 4, 15, 24 or 27 of Schedule (c) the information which is disclosed under this section, 20B to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (determinate any conditions imposed in relation to its further sentence prisoners subject to transitional provisions) disclosure and the name and address of the person to applies.” whom it is disclosed. 179E: Clause 117, page 96, line 13, at end insert— (9) Nothing in this section requires or authorises the making of a disclosure which contravenes the Data Protection Act 1998. “( ) amend paragraph 6, 15, 25 or 28 of Schedule 20B to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (release on licence of (10) This section is not to be taken as affecting any power of determinate sentence prisoners subject to transitional any person to disclose any information about a violent abuser.” provisions),” 179F: Clause 117, page 96, line 18, leave out “IPP prisoners Baroness Gale: My Lords, this amendment and and extended sentence prisoners” and insert “each of the categories Amendment 180B are tabled in the names of my noble of discretionary release prisoner mentioned in subsection (1A)” friends Lady Royall of Blaisdon, Lord Bach and Lord Beecham. Amendments 179D to 179F agreed. I begin by paying tribute to Michael and Adam Brown. It is as a result of their campaign that we are Amendment 180 not moved. here today and are debating this important issue in order that we can protect vulnerable women and men Clause 117, as amended, agreed. from the very small percentage of people who think that they have a right to hurt the partners they claim 5.15 pm to love. In 2007 Michael’s daughter and Adam’s sister, Clare Wood, a resident of Salford, began a relationship with George Appleton, a man she had met through Amendment 180A the social networking website Facebook. A year later Moved by Baroness Gale she ended the relationship but became the target of a sustained campaign of violence and harassment from 180A: After Clause 117, insert the following new Clause— Appleton. Over the next six months Appleton stalked “Disclosure of information about convictions etc. of violent Clare, sexually assaulted her and threatened to kill her. abusers to members of the public Then in February 2009 he strangled her, killing her (1) The responsible authority for each area must, in the course before setting her body on fire. After a six-day manhunt of discharging its functions under arrangements established under he fled to an abandoned pub in Salford and hanged section 325 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, consider whether to disclose information in its possession about the relevant previous himself. convictions of any violent abuser managed by it to any person Appleton had a long background of violence against deemed by the authority to be at risk. women, including repeated allegations and convictions (2) In the case mentioned in subsection (3) there is a presumption of harassment, threats to kill, and kidnapping one of that the responsible authority should disclose information in its his ex-girlfriends at knifepoint. Clare had no way of possession about the relevant previous convictions of the offender knowing this. Had she had that information, it could to the particular member of the public. have saved her life. I think we would all agree that this (3) The case is where the responsible authority for the area has is a horrifying story. reasonable cause to believe that— (a) a serial violent abuser managed by it poses a risk in that My right honourable friend Hazel Blears, MP for or any other area of causing serious harm to a particular Salford, has advocated for this change of law and at risk person, and worked on this amendment, as Michael Brown is a (b) disclosure of information about the relevant previous constituent of hers. We need to change the law urgently conviction of the offender to the particular member of to save lives. the public is necessary for the purpose of protecting the At the inquest into Clare’s death, the coroner made at risk person from serious harm caused by the offender. the following recommendation: (4) The presumption under subsection (2) arises if the person “Subject to appropriate risk assessment and safeguard, I to whom the information is disclosed requests the disclosure. recommend that consideration should be given to the disclosure (5) Where the responsible authority makes a disclosure under of such convictions and their circumstances to potential victims this section— in order that they can make informed choices about matters (a) it may disclose such information about the relevant affecting their safety and that of their children”. previous convictions of the offender as it considers Since Clare’s death, her father Michael Brown and appropriate to disclose to the member of the public brother Adam have campaigned for a change in the concerned, and law to enact precisely the coroner’s recommendations (b) it may impose conditions for preventing the member of to give women and men at risk of domestic violence public concerned from disclosing the information to any other persons. the right to know of any threat that they face. The (6) Any disclosure under this section must be made as soon as Respect & Protect: Clare’s Law campaign calls for is reasonably practical having regard to all the circumstances. women and men to be given the right to know. It has (7) The responsible authority for each area must compile and received cross-party support and has been backed by maintain a record about the decisions it makes in relation to the Fabulous magazine and Key 103 radio. discharge of its functions under this section. In 2009 a report commissioned by ACPO and compiled (8) The record must include the following information— by Chief Constable Brian Moore of Wiltshire Police (a) the reasons for making a decision to disclose advocated the creation of a right to know, but by the information under this section, creation of a positive duty on the police proactively to (b) the reasons for making a decision not to disclose disclose information. This is not just a compassionate information under this section, and issue but one with serious public order, health and 473 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 474

[BARONESS GALE] be appended to a Bill that deals with either justice or economic implications. Domestic violence represents crime prevention. With no other Bill to address these 18 per cent of all violent incidents. The cost of domestic issues on the horizon, this offers the Government an violence was calculated to be £15.7 billion in 2008 easy way to change the law quickly, before more in public services, loss to the economy and victims. In people are killed at the hands of serial domestic abusers. 2009-10 in England and Wales, 21 men and 94 women were killed by a partner or ex-partner. Over the past Under the consultation put forward by the 10 years, an average of between 111 and 146 people a Government—the second option—a four-step process year have been murdered by their partner or ex-partner. will take place. After an initial enquiry by A to the ACPO estimates that there are 25,000 serial perpetrators police, the police undertake an initial check on the of domestic violence in the country. It has the highest police national database to identify whether any rate of repeat victimisation of any crime, with 44 per information is held on B. The police then meet A cent of victims victimised more than once in the past face-to-face to confirm their identity and that of B, to 12 months. Therefore, if we act today we know that we confirm the relationship between them, and to enable will stop a significant number of repeat abusers and A to complete a formal application for disclosure. The help a huge number of men and women to take police will then conduct full checks on the police control of their personal safety. database systems to inform a risk assessment for A. The police refer information about B to an appropriate The public support this initiative. Polling conducted multi-agency setting, probably a multi-agency risk by Fabulous magazine in the summer of 2011 found assessment conference, which would then make a decision that 91 per cent of women agree that they should be on whether to disclose the information to A. Such a given the right to know whether their partner has a decision would be informed by the risk assessment history of domestic violence; 84 per cent think that and whether appropriate safety measures can be put in such a change in the law could save lives; and 77 per place for the applicant. If disclosure is approved, it cent would consider leaving their partner if they found would be made by the police with an independent that he had history of abuse. domestic violence adviser present to provide support On 25 October 2011, the Home Office launched a to A, if required. consultation on the introduction of a domestic violence disclosure scheme. This followed a meeting between The introduction of the police national database in the Home Secretary, Theresa May, Michael Brown 2011 offers the opportunity easily to identify serial and my right honourable friend Hazel Blears. The perpetrators of domestic violence. The PND gives consultation paper established the three following options: police the ability to create national markers, such as a to continue current arrangements under the existing domestic abuse serial perpetrator marker, which could law; to create a “right to ask” national disclosure flag up prolific and dangerous subjects operating across scheme; and to create a “right to know” national England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is a very disclosure scheme. On 27 October 2011, Hazel Blears important subject. I, Hazel Blears and, of course, MP tabled a new clause to the Legal Aid, Sentencing Michael and Adam Brown, are thankful that we are and Punishment of Offenders Bill that would have able to debate this matter today. Debate was prevented introduced Clare’s law. The new clause was based on in another place as, due to the timetabling on Report, the legal framework established by Sarah’s law, which this amendment was not reached. created a disclosure law for paedophiles living within a locality.Therefore, while the Home Secretary’s consultation When can the Government’s response to the on Clare’s law, which has just ended, is welcome, for consultation be expected? What was the weight of the law to be changed, legislation surrounding crime opinion in the replies? I trust the Minister can give an and justice needs to be passed. The passage of the Bill assurance that the Government will support this through Parliament provides a legislative vehicle to amendment to bring about Clare’s law. I can assure which the change can be attached. At the moment, him that we would welcome further discussions with while there is some common law provision for disclosure, him, if required, to ensure a positive outcome which it is unclear and needs clarification. The Clare’s law would do so much to provide a safety net for these proposal aims to empower men and women by giving people. I look forward to hearing a positive response them the right to request this information. A codification from him on this matter. I beg to move. of the law will make it easier for men and women to make a request, and provide clearer guidance to the Lord McNally: My Lords, earlier today we gave agencies on their roles and responsibilities. support to Jane’s law. The noble Baroness referred to The Hazel Blears clause represents the second option Sarah’s law. Now we are discussing Clare’s law. Those in the consultation. The first option does not offer a all stem from tragedies that have befallen families. The change to the current situation and the third creates measure may be viewed as a case of slamming the obligations for the police that might be difficult for stable door but we are trying to learn lessons from them to meet. The second option—a right to ask—gives those tragedies and to give the families concerned at men and women the opportunity to make a request least the comfort of knowing that the lessons we have without putting the police in the position of having to learnt will save others in the future. Therefore, I assure make a disclosure or risk negligence claims. Any change the noble Baroness that we have great sympathy with in the law needs a legislative vehicle. The passage of this proposal. We pay tribute to the campaign that the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Hazel Blears, the Member for Salford and Eccles, has Bill offers an opportunity to change the law. As this pursued in co-operation with Clare’s family, and her matter relates to crime and security, any change must work in tabling this amendment in the other place. 475 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 476

As the noble Baroness explained, the amendment working with the Minister to see in which way we can would place a duty on responsible authorities such as progress successfully on this matter. In the mean time, the police, probation and Prison Service to consider I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. disclosing information held in their possession about the relevant previous convictions of any violent abuser Amendment 180A withdrawn. to any person deemed by the responsible authority to be at risk. The amendment is born of the circumstances Amendment 180B not moved. referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, of the tragic murder of Clare Wood by her ex-boyfriend. Noble Lords will know that the Government have Clause 118 : Employment in prisons: deductions etc been considering this issue very carefully.The Government from payments to prisoners are committed to ending violence against women and girls. The fact that approximately two people are killed Amendment 181 not moved. by their current or former partner each week underlines how serious this issue is, and we are committed to looking at new ways of protecting victims. Amendment 181A Moved by Lord Ramsbotham 5.30 pm 181A: Clause 118, page 97, line 7, at end insert— However, disclosing information raises serious and “(c) arrangements for private companies to provide complex questions about the appropriate circumstances employment and training for persons who are required in which information could be disclosed, particularly to be detained in prisons, young offender institutions for the continued safety of a potential victim. As the and secure training centres; noble Baroness, Lady Gale, explained, the Home Secretary (d) the provision of resources for vocational training and launched a consultation so that everyone with an skills training for persons who are required to be interest or concern could express their views to the detained in prisons, young offender institutions and Government and the Home Office. The Home Office secure training centres; and is currently considering the 259 responses that have so (e) arrangements designed to ensure that all work carried out far been received to that consultation. by prisoners provides them with nationally recognised qualifications, provides opportunities for learning and As the noble Baroness explained, the options set skills progression, and is evaluated for learning and out in the consultation included a right to know, employability outcomes.” which is the spirit of the amendment, and a right to ask, which could be modelled successfully on Sarah’s Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, the amendment is law—the child sex offender disclosure scheme. In tabled in the context of something mentioned in the considering the options, the Government’s paramount Green Paper that has occurred many times in statements duty is the safety of the potential victim but, as the by the Government relating to what they intend to do noble Baroness demonstrated in presenting her case, with prisoners—in other words, to make prisons become the options are more complex than might be thought working prisons and to increase the amount of time at first blush. that prisoners spend at work; the 40-hour working The noble Baroness undoubtedly produced some week has been mentioned. powerful arguments and equally powerful statistics for Clause 118 amends Section 47 of the Prison Act, action in this area. The Government want to consider which lays down what may happen. New subsection (2) the wide range of views on this important and sensitive refers to secure training centres and young offender issue before taking matters further. However, I hope institutions; new subsection (3) adds that different that she will accept my reassurance that we intend to provision may be made for different cases; and new take the matter further. We can talk in the margins subsection (4) talks about employment rules made by about whether further discussions would be helpful, the Secretary of State in that context. and I would certainly be happy to try to facilitate them. I hope that she will accept my assurance—and My reason for this amendment, which may look a that she can assure her colleagues—that we share a little prescriptive, is that from experience I know perfectly determination to address this problem and that if well that there is no way in which under current Clare’s law is the best way forward we will certainly circumstances the Government will be able to enact progress in that way. what they say they want to do. I have known for years and years that the problem is that NOMS and the The noble Baroness has presented a formidable Prison Service simply are not orientated or equipped, case. The Home Secretary has consulted and is considering nor do they have the ethos, to provide the business-like those consultations. I think that we can work together structure that is necessary if work is to be provided. to take this matter forward in a positive fashion. In They never have and they never will. The NOMS those circumstances, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw bureaucratic procedures involved with dealing with the amendment. private contractors are ludicrously complicated and frustrate those who would like to contribute by providing Baroness Gale: I am grateful to the Minister for his work. positive response, and I know that he understands that I have always contended that the ideal in a prison is this is a crucial and serious issue. We have seen the a full, purposeful and active day for every prisoner, success of Sarah’s law and I am sure that we will designed to tackle what has prevented them from eventually get to Clare’s law. We look forward to living a useful, law-abiding life, with the idea that they 477 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 478

[LORD RAMSBOTHAM] years, the impact of this has been that people have not come out and do not reoffend. That is not realised by been willing to risk making a loss and therefore they prisoners spending all day in their cells doing nothing. have not encouraged the uptake of work as much as A census done now of prisons would, I believe, come they might have done. up with a figure of nearly 50 per cent of all prisoners The three additional aspects that I have suggested doing nothing, which means that there is no help for the Secretary of State should consider are all to do them to live a useful and law-abiding life. with the provision of work. The amendment would I have said again and again that there is a need for make certain that those contracted were properly overseen someone to be in charge, responsible and accountable. and that all the activities, both vocational and educational, I have said for years that until and unless a businessman carried qualifications of worth that could be used is appointed to be in charge of the overall direction outside. As I said, I admit that this is prescriptive but I and provision of work in prisons, nothing will happen. feel so strongly that this work ethic must be encouraged and enabled that I could not resist proposing the I have spoken to two distinguished providers of addition of these paragraphs to Clause 118. I beg to work in prison: Mr James Timpson, who not only runs move. four academies but has taken on almost 200 ex-prisoners in his employment around the country, and Mr Edwin Lucas, who has been working in the recycling trade as Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I support well as providing work in prisons for years. I listened the amendment so eloquently introduced by the noble with horror to the frustrations that they have expressed Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. From what he said, I got about trying to deal with prisons where no one has a the sense that it is really a probing amendment and clue about how to deal in a business-like way. For that he did not expect to receive much support for it. example, a van will arrive with deliveries of materials However, he made such a powerful case that I hope the to be used by prisoners only to be sent away because Minister might be swayed to think again about some people say, “We do not accept vans until four o’clock of these points. As we have already heard in this in the afternoon. It is now 11 o’clock in the morning, Committee, it is obvious that many people enter prison and you will have to wait”. That is not how business without the capacity to read and write, let alone to works. People do not answer letters. Invoices are invariably hold down a job when they come out on release. late. People bring in pallets of material and are sent Therefore, examples such as the Toe by Toe programme bills by prisons. should be mandatory. Indeed, it is a pity that the amendment has not specified that it should be a Until and unless there is proper oversight, run by requirement on the Secretary of State. businessmen, which includes trained people responsible We have no objection at all to what is being proposed. for conducting business activities in each prison, nothing Indeed, we would regard its prescriptive nature as will happen. The present inefficiency of the system, being of benefit in the sense of tying down, as the where every governor is allowed to do his own thing, is noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, what is required telling against that, because the businessmen who are of prisoners—that they should have a full, purposeful working with prisons tell me that probably only 20 of and active day, and that every prisoner should undertake all the governors are capable of conducting the sort of something instead of staying in their cells so as to at activities that are needed. The others simply do not least become engaged and appreciate what is necessary have the understanding or the ability to do it. There is in order to succeed outside prison. It would therefore no reason why they should. It should not be part of also reduce the level of reoffending. the requirement for a prison governor, who is there for another purpose. There are some good examples of work with prisoners having been done by private employers. National Grid In order to make the rehabilitation revolution work, had a project at Reading in which I was involved in an I desperately want work to be provided. I know that a earlier life, and I thought it was absolutely exemplary. number of things could happen. For example, one of It provided what seemed to be the critical path forward the best programmes in prison currently is Toe by Toe, for those due to leave custodial sentences in the sense where prisoners teach other prisoners to read. I seriously that it provided them with housing, jobs and training. believe that in the prison population many skills are It started before the prisoners left in order to bring held by existing prisoners which could be put to good their reading and writing up to speed, and it allowed use in acting as trainers, and which are free and them to learn a skill—in this case, fitting—which therefore will not act as a resource problem for the meant that they were able to operate as soon as they Prison Service. You get a double whammy, because left. As I understand it, that programme is still going. the person doing the teaching gets as much out of the The recidivism rate was very small indeed, so the process as the person being taught. programme was certainly worthy in that regard. It also For years, there has been an inhibitor on prison had the advantage of satisfying a need on the part of governors using their initiative to bring work in: grant employers—they had realised that they were not getting in aid, which is required by the Treasury. Under that, a an adequate supply of people to do the necessary jobs, governor can declare that he will make a profit from and they found that this programme provided a ready an activity that he is to conduct, including prisoners supply. making things. He declares that profit and, if he Therefore, there can be a win-win in what the makes it, he is allowed to keep it and apply it within Government and private enterprise are looking for. the prison. If he makes more, he has to surrender it to Indeed, one might say that it could apply to charities the Treasury. If he does not reach what he has said he and public bodies and not just to private companies. will make, he has to provide it from his budget. For However, the essential point of the amendment is that, 479 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 480 if it is decided that there will be employment from proper working week will be augmented by ensuring such activities in prisons, it should be done properly so that their work links them to the right opportunities to that those who benefit from it have skills and qualifications develop the skills necessary to their finding employment that are nationally recognised, and it should be done when they are released. in all cases so that we have a better outcome from the We plan to deliver learning bases on clusters of prison element. institutions that regularly transfer offenders between them. The learning and skills offer will focus on the Lord McNally: My Lords, like the noble Lord, needs of employers in the areas into which prisoners Lord Stevenson, I have had the opportunity to look at will be released, as well as on key issues, such as some organisations that have become involved in providing numerous, literacy and communication skills. Here work for prisoners and, like him, I am impressed. It is again, I pay tribute to Toe by Toe, which is a marvellous encouraging that those who have taken the risk, as way of tackling illiteracy—one of the problems that some may see it, of employing ex-prisoners, helping to comes through time and again in offending. Decisions train them, and doing work in prisons, find it a very on the most appropriate learning and skills offer will fruitful experience. be taken locally with the key aim of giving offenders Sometimes I think that the noble Lord, Lord the skills that they need to find and keep jobs and Ramsbotham, is a little hard on NOMS. I fully accept apprenticeships on release. There will be no one size that it is obvious that the vast majority of the prison fits all approach, nor should there be. Within this new estate was not designed for operating work regimes. framework we are retendering the offender learning Many very competent prison governors and prison and skills services—a process that gives the chance to officers are not equipped to run businesses. That is a look afresh at how to work with the best range of given, which makes the idea of work in prisons difficult providers. As well as learning the necessary skills and but not impossible. One of the things that we have having the right qualifications, many offenders have tried to do in the past 18 months is to tackle in a barriers to entering the labour market that must first practical way the realities to which the noble Lord, be tackled. Lord Ramsbotham, referred. Several hundred organisations already provide work and training As the Deputy Prime Minister announced in August opportunities inside prisons, but many are small and 2011, from the summer of this year offenders leaving want to do more to attract business. custody and claiming jobseeker’s allowance will have to engage with a work programme provider on release, We aim to provide a competitive package for business. who will be paid for getting them into work. As well as We will make involvement as straightforward as possible creating this “day one” service, we are bringing together and get the commercial model right for both prisons the claiming of jobseeker’s allowance and the processing and the private sector, subject to our paramount interest of benefits before release rather than after it, so prisoners in ensuring security, in line with our legal obligations. should have a shorter wait for their first benefit payment, NOMS is developing new structures and putting in which will help their resettlement. In addition, any place the right people to operate in a businesslike way. prison leaver who claims jobseeker’s allowance within That includes the recruitment of a new chief executive 13 weeks of release will be mandated to the work for the prison industries team within NOMS and a programme from the point of claim. We will also test, business development manager who will have responsibility in two work programme areas, the addition of a for finding new businesses and managing relations reducing reoffending payment as part of our payment with customers. by results approach, in which we will use a variety of We are trying to address some of the issues raised methods in the pilot phase. by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and as of now around 9,000 prisoners are employed in prison industries, We recognise that equipping children under the which my rough arithmetic makes it to be around school leaving age with the skills they will need to 10 per cent, or perhaps just a little over of the prison succeed in life is vital. There is already an expectation population. It is clear that there is much to do, but that they will be in education rather than paid work. there are great prizes if we can get this right. Clause 118 The raising of the participation age will mean that is central to our plan to achieve our aim to make from 2013 all young people, including those in custody, prisons places of meaningful and productive work must continue in education or training until the age where prisoners make reparation. Ensuring that prisoners of 17, and until 18 from 2015. Young people in secure and those detained in young offender institutions or training centres and under-18 young offender institutions secure training centres have access to training and can will have access to a full day of education and constructive obtain qualifications is important. The Government activity.In secure training centres, young people participate certainly recognise the importance of this area and in education or training for at least 25 hours per week. agree with the intent behind the amendment. In the under-18 young offender institutions, each young person will receive at least 25 hours per week of Let me assure noble Lords that we are already education and other constructive activity. doing much of what we aim to do. Through our desire to increase the amount of meaningful and productive We believe that the amendment is constructive but work done in prisons, the Government will give many unnecessary. Section 47(1) of the Prison Act 1952 more offenders the chance to learn the discipline and allows the Secretary of State to make rules concerning skills of working. As study after study has shown, the regulation and management of prisons, young offending patterns diminish once employment has been offender institutions and secure treatment centres, and found. However, it is not just through prison working the treatment of those required to be detained therein. that we aim to reduce reoffending. Experience of a Subsection (3) states: 481 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 482

[LORD MCNALLY] qualifying benefits, shall be assessed, during his or her time in “Rules … may provide for the training of particular classes of imprisonment or custody, for eligibility for those benefits at the persons”. time of his or her imprisonment or custody. Clause 118 will not change those aspects of the 1952 (2) For the purposes of this section, the qualifying benefits Act, which cover the same ground as Amendment 181A. are— For adults detained in custody, the rule-making (a) universal credit; powers contained in the Prison Act are augmented by (b) jobseeker’s allowance; provisions in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and (c) income support; Learning Act 2009, including a duty on the chief (d) personal independence payment, to the extent provided executive of Skills Funding to, for in regulations made under section 84 (prisoners) of “secure the provision of reasonable facilities for education suitable the Welfare reform Act 2012; and to the requirements of persons who are subject to adult detention”, (e) any other benefits provided for in regulations made and, in doing so, to take account of a range of factors under this section. such as facilities and equipment. In carrying out this (3) Regulations made under this section shall provide that the duty, the chief executive must have regard to various assessment required under subsection (1) shall commence as soon matters, including the desirability of prisoners continuing as a person is received into imprisonment or custody. the education or training that they have begun, and (4) Regulations shall in particular provide that a person appointed making the best use of resources. by the Secretary of State shall record, at the time a person is received into imprisonment or custody, details of any qualifying I have listened often to—and have always welcomed— benefits which are in payment at that time, together with any the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, championing the personal information needed to establish the person’s identity, concept of making work, training and education a including but not limited to their national insurance number. priority. They are the key to rehabilitation. I hope that (5) An assessment of eligibility under subsection (1) shall be what I have said has convinced him that, although we completed in such time as to ensure that the person assessed may not have achieved all that he desired, we are receives payment of any benefits for which he is assessed as being listening and trying as best we can to move in the eligible no later than one week after his release from imprisonment direction that he advocates. For that reason, I hope or custody. that he will withdraw his amendment. (6) Regulations under this section shall be made by the Secretary of State and shall be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.” Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the care that he put into his response, and in particular for his closing remarks. I am also Lord Ramsbotham: I am sorry to be hogging the very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for Floor. This amendment refers to an amendment that I his words. As I said, the purpose of the amendment is have already tabled to the Welfare Reform Bill, and to to encourage something that I very strongly support. I something that has been worrying me ever since 1996 hope that the Minister will be able to assure me that when I first came across it. It refers to the fact that the business manager whom he said would be appointed when prisoners are released from prison they are given will be a businessman and not a civil servant from a release grant of £46, on which they are expected to NOMS. I do not decry civil servants who do civil live until their benefit payments, which they have had servants’ jobs, but we need a businessman in there, and to apply for on release from prison, come through. I hope that one will be appointed. That can take up to three weeks, and I defy anyone to I also hope that one of the first things that the live for three weeks on £46. Some prisoners qualify for business manager will do is carry out an inquiry with double payment if they are of no fixed abode, but this the people who currently provide work in prisons and became a Catch-22 situation when tagging was introduced allow them to tell him frankly of the frustrations and because, in order to qualify to be tagged, you had to problems that they currently experience when trying produce an address—and if you produced an address, to take work into prisons. The person concerned would you got only £46. find that very illuminating. If they take action on During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, I those frustrations, many of which I am very happy to suggested that it should be made the responsibility of pass on to the Minister because I have some censuses the Department for Work and Pensions, using the here, they would find it much more possible to deliver jobcentre staff who are present in every prison, to precisely what the Minister says he wants. If that process benefit claims during a sentence so that when happens—and, knowing the Minister, I am sure that it prisoners leave, if they are entitled to benefits, they will—I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. receive not a release grant but the first payment of the benefit so that the following week they get the next Amendment 181A withdrawn. one and so on, so that financial planning can begin on Amendment 182 not moved. the certainty of the benefit payment. It should not be too difficult because when they Clause 118 agreed. come into prison a very large number of prisoners are already on one form of benefit or another, which has Amendment 182ZA to be suspended during the sentence, so it is not a Moved by Lord Ramsbotham question of starting again but merely of resuming 182ZA: After Clause 118, insert the following new Clause— something already there. All the information necessary— “Benefits payments to prisoners the national insurance number and so on—is already (1) Regulations shall provide that a person undergoing held, so it should not be too difficult. I have never imprisonment or detention in legal custody who, at the time that understood why first the Home Office and then the imprisonment or custody commences, is in receipt of any of the Ministry of Justice did not insist on that happening 483 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 484 because they must be desperately worried at the very One report on adults with multiple needs documented large number of people who reoffend very quickly on the problems that they faced on coming out of prison, release, literally in order to survive because they cannot including delays of up to four weeks before the first live on £46. In many ways, this system is merely setting payment, with no explanation; problems with claims people up to offend and reoffend, which is therefore made before they went to prison that had to be resolved avoidable. before any new claim could be made; claims delayed During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, I because of no fixed address, as has already been talked with the Minister and with officials in the referred to, or other unstable living arrangements; Department for Work and Pensions, who told me that disputes over prison admission and release dates; and they had gone as far as they could. They have set up a problems caused by not closing down a claim on entry scheme for employment benefits to be processed in to prison, which result in a fraud investigation and the prisons, starting this year, so they are covered, but all new claim being suspended. the others—those for the disabled, the elderly, children We also know that a third of people in prison do and so on—are not covered, so there is still a gap. not have a bank account. This makes the payment of a There is also a problem because, under the new system deposit for housing or early expenses even harder to that the Welfare Reform Bill will introduce, payment is organise on release. Help beforehand and immediate in arrears—in other words, a prisoner has to come out access to benefits are key if the person is not to feel the and be out for a period of up to a week in order to need to return to using other people’s money just to qualify for a payment in arrears—so there is still a gap. survive. This gap has got to be filled. I believe that this is something that the Ministry of The report also emphasises the need for help and Justice should take on and ask for help with from the advice while still in prison—even more so over the Department for Work and Pensions, which it is willing coming years as the benefit system will, for most to give. Again there is the danger of being prescriptive prisoners, have changed phenomenally by the time but, having been worried about this for so long, and they come out from what they saw and knew about being quite certain that the Minister will be the first to when they went into prison. For all the advantages in want to stop a totally avoidable cause of reoffending, I the Welfare Reform Bill—and, despite the arguments suggest that when somebody is received in prison a that we will have on Tuesday about its disadvantages, standard set of questions should be asked to establish there are undoubtedly some advantages in it—the the national insurance number and the benefits. Then system of social security facing prisoners on release everyone should be interviewed by the jobcentre staff will be very different from the one they knew before. so that everyone knows what has to be done, and plans That will affect their re-emergence into a household. should be made for release a long time before the The payment of the universal credit to only one partner release process starts, rather than leaving it until the in the couple and other complications will need to be last moment, as now. sorted out in advance. As much as probing whether the Ministry of Justice In addition, half of prisoners have debts awaiting will take on this issue, the amendment suggests that clearing on release, according to one survey, and one the Department for Work and Pensions is waiting to in three owes money for housing, which also makes co-operate in any way it can to eliminate an avoidable access to a new home even more difficult. source of reoffending, thereby indirectly helping with the various matters that the Government hope to The Centre for Social Justice has also highlighted bring about in their Green Paper and a reduction in similar problems faced by people leaving custody. Its the size of the prison population. I beg to move. report, Locked Up Potential, recognised that delays in processing benefits mean that many people who are discharged have no source of income when they most 6pm urgently need it. The report concluded: Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, as has been set out very clearly, the aamendment seeks to “To bridge the finance gap, with the objective of reducing the resulting crime which it can fuel, we recommend that all prison ensure that anyone leaving custody gains swift access employment and benefit advisers be required by the … DWP and to the benefits to which they are entitled. We often the MOJ to initiate core benefit applications at least three weeks think that coming out of prison is very positive, but it prior to a prisoner’s nominated release date”. can be traumatic for people, particular those with multiple needs. With no financial contingencies, these Along with the noble Lord, we consider three weeks to people usually rely on a benefits system that they be rather too short. Nevertheless, will the Minister let experience as complicated, slow and unhelpful. In us know what discussions his department has had with extremis, some return to crime, as the noble Lord said, the Department for Work and Pensions about responding because before they went into prison that was their to the recommendations in that report, thus ensuring proven source of income. Delays in accessing benefits that those leaving prison are not left with gaps and can lead to financial hardship, stress and an increased delays in accessing the financial support that may be risk of reoffending. essential to them for starting a new life? The Prison Reform Trust in its Time is Money I welcome the comments that the Minister made in report found that eight of 10 former prisoners claim response to the earlier amendment about access to the benefits, so it is essential that we make sure the process work programme. Undoubtedly, that is of great advantage of claiming is as simple and as hurdle-free as possible to people coming out of prison. Access to advice on to give these post-custody people the best chance of the whole new system of universal credit well before a staying away from crime. prisoner’s release date, and preferably when they first 485 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 486

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] prison into the community is a key transition point in go into prison, would be of great advantage to them the journey from crime to rehabilitation. Prison staff and to the rest of us. We hope very much that the and employment and benefit advisers also take steps Minister will accept this amendment. to help individuals make an application for a community care grant, usually about six weeks prior to discharge, Lord McNally: My Lords, it is very nice to see the so that payment can be forwarded to the prison and noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, at the other side of the made available on release. They will also help in explaining Dispatch Box. I presume that she is on the night shift. how an individual can apply for a crisis loan on The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is correct. We release. recognise a certain familiarity about the amendment from another Bill but it is none the worse for that. The Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I am not so much reality is that the MoJ and the Department for Work the night shift as the Welfare Reform Bill shift. Of and Pensions are in close contact on these issues and course, the grants that the noble Lord has just referred are trying to work through them. to are to be abolished. I trust that prisoners will be I am reminded of a visit I made to a Turning Point aware that they will no longer be available because the project in Birmingham when I talked to a young man Welfare Reform Bill abolishes them. who was being helped and trained. He said, “Youcan’t imagine the cold feeling in the pit of your stomach on Lord McNally: Yes, but not instantly, and there will your day of release”. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, be a transition to the new scheme that I will explain indicated that there is a broad consensus that one of shortly. It is unfair, if the noble Baroness sat through the trigger points for reoffending is problems in resettling the Welfare Reform Bill, to start brandishing her in the community on release. It is also true that some knowledge at this time of night! face problems in accessing benefits. In addition, we All this activity is aimed at ensuring that ex-prisoners should do more to equip offenders to work, enabling can access advice on employment and benefits. It is more of them to be productive members of society on backed by the new NOMS specification for rehabilitation release and not a burden on the state, which was the services which requires, as a minimum standard, that subject of our earlier debate. prisoners are supported to sort out their financial The National Offender Management Service is working problems. to develop financial capability in custody by increasing As I mentioned earlier, during the debate on the access to money advice services. A number of prisons noble Lord’s amendment on employment and training also commission financial advice from local CABs in prisons, we are working to overcome the remaining and through contracted housing advice services. We barriers as part of the Government’s welfare reforms. also encourage rent arrear repayment schemes. NOMS This includes our plans to use the work programme as has also granted funds to Unlock, of which the noble the primary vehicle for help and support, whereby all Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is president, to increase prison leavers who claim jobseeker’s allowance will offender access to financial services. I was very pleased enter the work programme from day one of release to attend and to speak at the launch of a handbook from prison. This means some 30,000 prisoners a year produced by Unlock to help prisoners with financial will claim jobseeker’s allowance and start the work issues. We recognise that more work needs to be done programme on release from prison or within the following to encourage prisoners to save towards their discharge 13 weeks. across the estate and to make use of the IT available, These changes will also mean that instead of arranging which would support them in preparing for release. an appointment for the prison leaver to attend and More than half of those sentenced to custody are claim jobseeker’s allowance on release, the claim for claiming benefits at the start of their prison sentence, jobseeker’s allowance will be taken in prison, to start and two years after release nearly half are still claiming entitlement immediately on release, allowing mandatory out-of-work benefits. That is why we are working so referral to the work programme. We will also continue closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to to work with the DWP, Jobcentre Plus and other overcome the gap in access to benefits, which the agencies, including in the voluntary sector, to ensure noble Lord has outlined, and to ensure that our plans that prisoners have all necessary information about to get Britain working will get more offenders into claiming benefits on release, and in pursuing programmes jobs. However, I do not believe that the noble Lord’s that prevent reoffending. amendment will assist in achieving these aims. It would The noble Lord has specifically raised concerns require us to conduct unnecessary assessments for all about what will happen in the case of ex-prisoners prisoners. This is because the work done on entering who are not seeking work. As the noble Lord, Lord prison is highly likely to need updating as the sentence Freud, also explained in the debate that touched on continues. At this time of fiscal constraint, it is vital this issue, we are aiming to address the finance gap that we look extremely carefully at how resources are through our plans for universal credit payments, which targeted. are paid monthly in arrears. Under the proposals, an Staff working in prisons already take relevant steps applicant, on leaving prison and with a valid claim, when someone comes into custody to help sort out can be paid their claim immediately through payment their benefits. New prisoners are specifically asked on account. I think this will strike the right balance, in about this at induction and are referred to one of the ensuring that ex-prisoners can access their benefits 140 Jobcentre Plus employment and benefit advisers quickly through payment on account, and that our currently working in prisons. However, support does resources are primarily focused on getting more offenders not end there, as we also recognise that release from into work. 487 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 488

I hope with those explanations that the noble Lord enough to comment that there are aspects of the will be reassured to the point that he will withdraw his reforms that are genuinely useful—is to see if we can amendment. stitch those reforms into our prisons. That will go a long way towards addressing the problems raised by Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, the noble Lord, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. As I have already Lord Ramsbotham, knows that I cede to no one in my indicated, I do listen to what he says and I will take admiration for him. He demonstrates that he understands back his ideas to see where they can mesh in with what the problem, and I am sure that he understands it we are trying to do with the DWP and the various much better than I do—I am a complete amateur in initiatives that NOMS has taken. these matters. I found his argument very telling, particularly the £46 Catch-22. I also found the statement Lord Judd: I thank the noble Lord for giving way. by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, very telling. He has been talking with a great deal of sensitivity I have the impression that the Minister recognises and imagination in response to this amendment and I there is a problem. He is describing various means am encouraged and reassured by that. He seems to which are already in hand of perhaps reducing the have a real grasp of the realities. I hope that he will be scale of the problem, and that is good. However, what able to deal with a couple of points. He talked about a is wrong with accepting the amendment? If the means young man with a cold feeling in the pit of his stomach. of amelioration which the Minister has described reduce I have encountered too many conversations of exactly the need to impose a deadline—I take it that the nub that character. I remember something that I think I of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham’s amendment is may have mentioned in the House before. A former in subsection (5), with the one-week deadline—and chief constable was doing great work as a volunteer in mean that it would bite in fewer cases, that would be a young offender institution, but he was bowled over excellent. But would it not be good to have this provision when a youngster who was about to be released started anyway? I hope that the noble Lord will think further to weep in his presence. He asked him, “Why are you about the amendment because the arguments he has weeping? You are about to be released”. The youngster made are not arguments against it. He has made the said, “Because I am absolutely scared of what I am argument that the scale of the problem which the going to encounter outside”. amendment seeks to deal with may turn out, because There are two things that we must bear in mind: of what the Government are doing or are planning to first, that for some people—not, of course, the majority, do, to be smaller than it was in the past. I accept that but some—perhaps the very last thing they need is because it could well be true. However, that would still to go straight into a job. They need a great deal of leave the core of a problem which the amendment support and counselling to prepare them. Front-line would deal with. I hope that this matter will not be put staff in prisons working with these youngsters often away for ever. make that point. Secondly, agencies, advice and everything else are tremendous—what the Minister has been saying 6.15 pm is terrific; the more of it that is available, the better—but Lord McNally: My Lords, if the noble Lord was the it is not just that. What so often is needed in the head of a department of state he would not be advising context of the cold hole in the stomach is stable me to accept the amendment moved by the noble relationships and friendship. I hope that the Minister Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, with such alacrity. However, can give us reassurance that, in all the work that the I take the point. At the beginning of my remarks I Government are doing with the voluntary sector, they made the point that we are now in close discussions will give every encouragement to those voluntary with the Department for Work and Pensions in what organisations that are moving into this sphere and we hope will be a genuine exercise in joined-up trying to provide a stable relationship—as it were, government. I remember one of the first experiences walking with the individual back into full rehabilitation I had when I took over this office—and I should say into society. that I am not the prisons Minister; my honourable friend Crispin Blunt is the Minister, and he has addressed Lord McNally: Part of the problem with this debate these problems with great energy and commitment, is that we cover two areas, which we were discussing but because of my responsibilities in this House I take earlier. First, there are dangerous people from whom an interest in this area. At any rate, I was reading in society needs protection, and we have to deal with what was the strangest of all places, the Daily Telegraph, them within our criminal justice system. Secondly, you an article about a young man being released from do not need to be in this job very long, or to visit very prison with £46 in his pocket, but with a cold feeling in many prisons, to realise that there are people in our the pit of his stomach. The article went through the 48 prisons who have no place there and who, with a hours after his release, by which time he was using that proper policy of rehabilitation in its broadest sense, money to buy drugs and was back with the gang he can be stopped from reoffending. We are really fighting had been associated with and which had sent him to on those two fronts. prison in the first place. So we are not unaware of the On whether there should be a glide path into work, problem. perhaps that is where we can get the work-in-prison I have said before that there is a revolving door of regimes working properly. That in itself can help in crime which sometimes our treatment of prisoners that direction. The other thing that I am also very only exacerbates. What we are doing, in what I hope is enthusiastic about and would like to see developed, a non-ideological way—I know about the fierce debates and where the voluntary sector is superbly equipped on the welfare Bill, but the noble Baroness was kind to help, is mentoring schemes, and finding people who 489 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 490

[LORD MCNALLY] Clause 120 : Transit of prisoners are willing to act as mentors. That could have a powerful effect. I do not think that there is division in the Committee on that. We are trying the perhaps Amendment 182ZB revolutionary idea of joined-up government in making Moved by Lord McNally sure that the move from prison to a proper, productive, law-abiding life is not aborted at those first steps 182ZB: Clause 120, page 101, line 9, at end insert— through the prison gates because of lack of basic “(2A) The relevant Minister may issue a transit order where— support. (a) international arrangements apply to any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man which provide for the transfer between that island and a country or territory outside Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: Perhaps the Minister the British Islands of persons to whom subsection (2B) would use joined-up government to do one other applies; and thing. I mentioned when I intervened just now that the (b) the relevant Minister has received a request from the Social Fund was going to be abolished and that both appropriate authority of that island for the transit of a grants and loans would become the responsibility of person to whom subsection (2B) applies through a part local authorities. The DWP has undertaken to issue a of Great Britain. “settlement letter” about it to local authorities. One of (2B) A person falls within this subsection if— the areas that we were worried about with regard to (a) that person is for the time being required to be detained the Welfare Reform Bill was that a person would have in a prison, a hospital or any other institution either— to have a local connection to be able to claim either (i) by virtue of an order made in the course of the their replacement for social care grants or crisis loans. exercise of its criminal jurisdiction by a court or It is exactly ex-offenders who are least likely to be able tribunal in the island from which the transit request to qualify because they may not have ties with the is made; or place that they go back to. It would be extremely (ii) by virtue of any provisions of the law of that island helpful if the Minister could in discussions with the which are similar to any of the provisions of this DWP stress the importance of that settlement letter Act; and making it clear that ex-offenders should be eligible for (b) except in a case where a transit request is made in the those payments even if they go to a local authority circumstances described in section 6D(1), that person is area where they have not just moved from because present in that island.” they are coming out of prison. His help on that would be greatly appreciated. Lord McNally: My Lords, I cannot resist commenting on the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lord McNally: I will gladly draw that to the attention Ramsbotham. He is such an old Whitehall warrior of DWP. that he is always between one department and another, asking, “What are the difficult questions that I can ask Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I was very glad that them?”. the night shift had started so that the noble Baroness, Clause 120 provides that prisoners who are being Lady Hayter, with her great experience of these issues, transferred under escort from one state to another for was here to contribute to the debate. I am very grateful the purpose of serving a sentence of imprisonment to my noble friend Lord Kerr and to the noble Lord, may transit through the territory of Great Britain. Lord Judd, for their contributions. They added value Transit will normally involve a prisoner and escort to the debate. changing aircraft at an appropriate UK international I am extremely grateful to the Minister, who airport. The clause is required to enable the UK to demonstrated, as has been mentioned, that he understands fulfil its international obligations under existing and the problem. Yet, in 1996 I first received an official pat future prisoner transfer arrangements. Following on the head from an official in the Home Office who discussions with the authorities of the Channel Islands said, “Do not worry, we are talking to the Department and the Isle of Man, it has become clear that further of Employment about this”. Absolutely nothing has powers are necessary to enable escorts from these happened about it and that was more than 15 years territories to transit through Great Britain when ago. In the run up to putting my amendments to the transferring a prisoner to another state. This group of Welfare Reform Bill, I questioned officials in the amendments address that particular issue with the Department for Work and Pensions who were not Crown dependencies. They have no other, wider or aware of any people in the Ministry of Justice involved ulterior motives, despite talking about transiting through in such discussions. I am glad that that is happening. It territories et cetera. They are to enable the Crown would be sensible to bring this amendment back on dependencies—the Channel Islands and the Island of Report so that the Minister can tell us precisely what Man—to participate in what are already international has happened since that time. I know that the Department obligations. I beg to move. for Work and Pensions is poised and waiting. The suggestions that I made to the Minister were requests from that department that would help it to help the Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I am Ministry of Justice. Hoping that that will happen, I deeply sad that my appearance before the witching beg leave to withdraw the amendment. hour did not receive the approbation of the Minister, who did not welcome me to the Front Bench with my Amendment 182ZA withdrawn. comments. I make no further comment on that. I also make it absolutely clear that the comments which Clause 119 agreed. follow have not been solicited by me creeping around 491 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[9 FEBRUARY 2012] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 492

Whitehall. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has Clause 120 will enable the relevant Minister to gone, but I will obviously take lessons from him about authorise transit through the territory of Great Britain how to do that in future. He concealed his briefing where a request is made in accordance with a relevant very well to the end. Perhaps he should have done so international prisoner transfer agreement to which the until after the Minister responded. UK is party—in particular the Council of Europe’s The Minister is right. The wording of these framework decision which requires a member state to amendments looks pretty innocuous on the surface facilitate transit between member states when requested. but we wonder why they are there. I have five questions It also provides a power for the police to detain a to leave with the Minister. He said that these were prisoner in transit only for a period necessary to necessary to fulfil international obligations. That of complete the transit. course raises in one’s mind the words “extraordinary The Government fully support the principle that rendition”. Could he reassure the Committee that, as foreign national prisoners should be able to serve their he said at the end, there is nothing that one should be sentences in their own country and we need to support worried about in that? Clearly, we are worried about partner jurisdictions in achieving this end. For this extraordinary rendition. Is this a part of that overall system to work effectively, Governments must to process and, if not, could he explain precisely why the co-operate with each other in facilitating transfer. Channel Islands and the Isle of Man need to have this Indeed, the UK regularly seeks and obtains permission legislation at this time? I am sure that there is an to transit through other countries when returning innocuous explanation, but we would be grateful to British nationals here. have that. Perhaps in answering that he could also say I recognise that concerns have been raised about the what he estimates the effect will be of the provision. I rights and protection of individuals subject to transit, cannot imagine that many international flights carrying but I remind the House that only when a person has prisoners and escorts, or without escorts, land in the been convicted and sentenced by a court of law and Channel Islands and require this sort of arrangement; when that person is being transferred for the sole so it would be interesting to have the figures and, if he purpose of the enforcement of that sentence in another does not have them to hand, perhaps he could write country would transit through the UK take place. The to me. prisoner concerned is unlikely to have any connection Since we are on extraordinary rendition, which has with the United Kingdom and any challenge to the been a sensitive issue for some time, perhaps the prisoner’s transfer and detention should be made either Minister could use the opportunity to refresh our to the sentencing or receiving state, not the United memories about where we are on this. Is it still the case Kingdom. that the UK will not undertake extraordinary rendition This is a technical amendment and has none of the of detainees in a manner that may be illegal? Confirmation sinister implications that might have arisen at first of that would be gratefully received. blush. I hope that the assurances that I gave at the beginning to the noble Lord’s questions will satisfy him. Lord McNally: On the last point, of course I can give that guarantee. I very much welcome the noble Amendment 182ZB agreed. Lord as part of the nightshift. I apologise for the omission during his earlier contributions. Amendments 182ZC to 182ZF The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are not part of the United Kingdom; they are Crown dependencies. Moved by Lord McNally Whether it was an oversight or not, I do not know, but 182ZC: Clause 120, page 101, line 10, after “(2)(a)” insert “or this just clears things up so that they can operate (2B)(a)” through UK airports if that was needed. I understand 182ZD: Clause 120, page 101, line 14, after “(1)(b)” insert “or that there have been two or three cases in the past (2A)(b)” three or four years, so this is not some mass movement 182ZE: Clause 120, page 101, line 23, at end insert “or of people. They are applications on a voluntary basis, (2A)(b)” with people wanting to be repatriated back to their 182ZF: Clause 120, page 103, line 25, after “6A(2)(a)” insert own country, and for prisoner exchange purposes. “or (2B)(a)” It may help if I speak to Clause 120. The clause would enable prisoners who are being transferred from Amendments 182ZC to 182ZF agreed. one state to another for the purpose of serving a sentence of imprisonment to transit through the territory Debate on whether Clause 120, as amended, should of Great Britain. Transit will normal involve a prisoner stand part of the Bill. and escort changing aircraft at an appropriate UK international airport. It is required to enable the UK Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I do not to fulfil its international obligations under existing intend to detain the Committee long on this. This was and future prisoner transfer arrangements. The United not so much a probing matter as a sort of defensive Kingdom is party to a number of international prisoner one, in case the answers to the questions on the transfer arrangements which require the United Kingdom previous group of amendments proved in any way to facilitate transit wherever possible. In the absence of suspicious or raised questions about extraordinary a specific power to authorise transit, and where necessary rendition. I think I got it, although I found it a bit to detain a prisoner during transit, applications have confusing as sometimes we were in Great Britain and been routinely refused. sometimes we were in the United Kingdom. I will read 493 LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill[LORDS] LegalAid,SentencingandPunishmentBill 494

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] Clause 120, as amended, agreed. Hansard very carefully. If there were any other points I House resumed. am sure we can sort them out but, on that basis, we will not press this. House adjourned at 6.36 pm. WS 27 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 28

It is essential that the scheme should apply in an Written Statements effective way in the modern holiday market; so that consumers are clear about their rights and how to use Thursday 9 February 2012 them, and holiday companies know which of their products must be protected. In addition the Air Travel Trust Fund, which provides Afghanistan for refunds and repatriations under the scheme, is Statement operating at a deficit and is supported by a Government guarantee. The fund needs to return to a financially self-sustaining basis as soon as possible so that taxpayers’ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth money is no longer exposed to risk. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Between 23 June and 15 September 2011, the Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made Government consulted on a set of initial reforms to the following Written Ministerial Statement. the ATOL scheme with the following objectives: I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and improving clarity for consumers about what Commonwealth Office is today publishing the Enduring holidays are protected; and Strategic Partnership Document between the UK and returning Air Travel Trust Fund finances to a Afghanistan which was signed by the Prime Minister self-sustaining basis, with the deficit repaid and and President Karzai on 28 January, 2012. Government guarantee phased out. The Enduring Strategic Partnership signals our shared The longer to medium-term objectives are to: vision of a secure, stable and prosperous Afghanistan able to maintain its own security and prevent the further improve the clarity of the scheme and country from again being used as a safe haven for develop a more consistent and coherent regulatory international terrorists framework for businesses; and Building on the strong message from the Bonn look at options for how the ATOL scheme is conference last year of the international community’s managed and financed once it is financially commitment to Afghanistan post-2014, the Enduring self-sustaining, with a view to reducing its cost to Strategic Partnership demonstrates our long-term the travel trade and consumers. partnership with Afghanistan. The ATOL reform consultation received 82 responses. The document reaffirms both countries’ commitment I am grateful to stakeholders for taking the time to to continuing partnership and friendship. It makes reply. In light of the responses and further analysis, I clear that we will have a wide-ranging relationship am confirming today that new ATOL regulations will with Afghanistan which will continue beyond transition be made that will: and the drawdown of international combat troops. bring into the ATOL scheme flight-plus holidays The partnership sets out our agreement to co-operate sold by tour operators and travel agents. These are on political dialogue, security, governance and rule of holidays that look like packages but do not meet law, economic and social development, and cultural the legal definition, and so do not currently require links. protection under the scheme. Including these I am placing the document in the Library of the holidays will end a significant source of confusion House. It will also be published on the Foreign and for consumers, and we expect up to an additional Commonwealth Office website (www.fco.gov.uk). 6 million holidays a year will be fully ATOL protected as a result. ensure that on paying for an ATOL protected flight- Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing only, package holiday or flight-plus, consumers receive a certificate confirming that their trip is covered by Statement the scheme. To give the travel trade sufficient time to prepare, this requirement will come fully into Earl Attlee: My right honourable friend the Minister effect on 1 October 2012. Until then, consumers of State for Transport (Theresa Villiers) has made the will receive clear confirmation that their holiday or following Ministerial Statement. flight is ATOL protected. Today I am pleased to announce the Government’s Taking account of consultation responses and further decisions on the proposals set out in last summer’s discussion with stakeholders, the new ATOL regulations consultation on the reform of the Air Travel Organisers’ will include a number of changes to the draft regulations Licensing (ATOL) scheme which can be introduced consulted on. These include changes to the definition through new regulations under existing powers. of a flight-plus holiday and a revised approach to the ATOL is a longstanding and important scheme, exemption for flight-only sales where tickets are provided which last year protected 18 million holidaymakers immediately on payment. Further details on these from travel company failure. ATOL is particularly changes are included in the summary of responses and relevant in today’s uncertain times, allowing consumers the Government’s decisions published today on the to book with the confidence that if their holiday department’s website. company fails, their money will be protected or they It is intended that the new regulations will be laid in will be able to return home as planned if they are Parliament in March, before coming into effect on already away, without any extra cost. 30 April 2012. WS 29 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 30

In addition to bringing greater clarity to consumers I am today announcing the launch of the Government’s about ATOL protection for holidays and flights, we Coastal Communities Fund which will allow seaside expect that these reforms should allow the ATOL towns to seize the opportunity to boost economic scheme’s financial deficit to be repaid within three growth along our coast. This fund was first announced years. This will pave the way for possible future changes by the Chief Secretary for the Treasury in July 2011 to improve how the ATOL scheme is funded and and I am now publishing the prospectus which sets out managed. The Civil Aviation Authority plans initial the delivery arrangements for the fund and the criteria discussions with stakeholders on options for this later that will be used to assess bids. in the year, building on responses to the question The fund will be equal to 50 per cent of the revenues posed in the consultation on this subject. generated by the Crown Estate’s marine assets. The These regulations compliment the clause in the fund is UK-wide, with allocations to the devolved Civil Aviation Bill introduced on 19 January 2012 that Administrations on the basis of revenue generated by would allow the ATOL scheme to cover holidays sold the Crown Estate’s marine assets. The devolved by airlines and those organised on an agent for the Administrations will have country-specific boards which consumer basis. Subject to parliamentary process, the will work with the Big Lottery Fund to deliver this Government’s intention is that such a step would only fund on the ground. In 2012, the fund will be worth be taken following full consultation with stakeholders £23.7 million, and the allocations will be: including an impact assessment. England—£18.2 million; Scotland—£3.9million (Highlands and Islands - Armed Forces: Pensions £1.85 million, Rest of Scotland—£2.05 million); Statement Wales—£1.15 million; and Northern Ireland—£0.45 million. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable Coastal towns often missed out on the economic friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Philip growth of the past decade that centred on London. Hammond) has made the following Written Ministerial Smaller seaside towns are also more reliant on the Statement. tourist trade and retirement and lack the more diverse economic base of many larger towns. Changes to the Armed Force Compensation Scheme introduced in May 2011, and Armed Forces redundancies Seaside towns have shown they can build stronger, as a result of the Strategic Defence and Security more diverse economies when given the chance. This Review, have increased the resource annually managed fund will give them the chance to transform economic expenditure (AME) and net cash requirements for the growth along our coast and unleash their potential to Armed Forces retired pay, pensions etc estimate in a create businesses and jobs. The fund underlines our manner which could not have been foreseen at the time commitment to supporting coastal towns so they can of the main estimate in April. Parliamentary approval benefit from the growth in marine revenues generated for additional resource AME of £1,340,000,000 has by the Crown Estate as it develops its coastal and been sought in the Supplementary Estimate for Armed offshore resources. Forces retired pay, pensions etc laid before the House We have worked with the Big Lottery “Big Fund” today. to establish how the fund will work and the timetable However, the rate of spend under this vote has also for its introduction. The deadline for applications in been faster than anticipated at the start of the year, for 2012 will be September, with winners announced in example, because payment of the retrospective additional December. In England and Wales there will also be a compensation payments as part of the implementation fast-track process with a deadline in May 2012 and of Lord Boyce’s recommendations for reform of the allocations in July. AFCS, has proceeded more quickly than expected. I want to encourage quality bids from the many The department therefore needs to make arrangements different types of organisations that support economic to ensure the financial obligations of the Armed Forces development including charities, social enterprises, Pension Scheme can continue to be met up until the voluntary organisations, local businesses as well as Supplementary Estimate is approved. Parliamentary local authorities and local enterprise partnerships. approval for additional resources of £1,340,000,000 is The Big Lottery’s “Big Fund” will deliver the Coastal sought in the Supplementary Estimate for the Armed Communities Fund and will be issuing more detailed Forces retired pay, pensions etc. Pending that approval, guidance shortly. urgent expenditure estimated at £340,000,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund. Correction to Lords Written Ministerial Statement Coastal Regeneration Statement Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My right honourable My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Philip Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles) Hammond) has made the following Written Ministerial has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Statement. WS 31 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 32

I regret that the Written Ministerial Statement I Elements of 4 Regiment Army Air Corps laid on 7 February (Official Report, col. 11WS) contained Elements of 6 Regiment Army Air Corps an error of detail. I am therefore laying a revised Elements of 9 Regiment Army Air Corps Statement today. Elements of Joint Helicopter Support Squadron The next roulement of UK forces in Afghanistan is due to take place in April 2012. The UK’s current Elements of Allied Rapid Reaction Corps Support framework Brigade in Helmand, 20th Armoured Brigade, Battalion will be replaced by 12th Mechanised Brigade. The 4 Logistic Support Regiment, The Royal Logistic forces deploying include: Corps 12th Mechanised Brigade Headquarters and Signal 10 The Queen’s Own Ghurkha Logistic Regiment Squadron (228) Elements of 9 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 19th Light Brigade Headquarters Elements of 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Headquarters 102 Logistic Brigade Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps 857 Naval Air Squadron Elements of 17 Port and Maritime Regiment, The The King’s Royal Hussars Royal Logistic Corps The Light Dragoons Elements of 23 Pioneer Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 1st Royal Tank Regiment Elements of 24 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of The Royal Wessex Yeomanry Elements of 27 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps 19th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 29 Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 5th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 88 Postal and Courier Regiment Elements of 12th Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 148 Expeditionary Force Institute Elements of 32nd Regiment Royal Artillery Squadron (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 39th Regiment Royal Artillery Elements of 152 Transport Regiment (Volunteers), Elements of 40th Regiment Royal Artillery The Royal Logistic Corps 26 Engineer Regiment Elements of 159 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), Elements of The Royal Monmouthshire Royal The Royal Logistic Corps Engineers (Militia) Elements of 162 Movement Regiment (Volunteers), Elements of 21 Engineer Regiment The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Elements of 166 Supply Regiment (Volunteers), Ordnance Disposal) The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 36 Engineer Regiment (Search) Elements of 151 Transport Regiment (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 38 Engineer Regiment Elements of the Catering Support Regiment Elements of 42 Engineer Regiment (Geographical) (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of The Military Stabilisation and Support Group Elements of the Operational Headquarters Support Group (Volunteers), The Royal Logistic Corps Elements of 170 (Infrastructure Support) Engineer Group 4th Medical Regiment 16th Signal Regiment 22nd Field Hospital Elements of 10th Signal Regiment Elements of 254 Medical Regiment (Volunteers) Elements of 14th Signal Regiment (Electronic Warfare) 4th Close Support Battalion Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Elements of 21st Signal Regiment (Air Support) Elements of 104 Force Support Battalion Royal 1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards Electrical and Mechanical Engineers 1st Battalion The Welsh Guards 174 Provost Company Royal Military Police 1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment Elements of 160 Provost Company Royal Military 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment (Duke of Police Wellington’s Regiment) Elements of Special Investigations Branch United 1st Battalion The Royal Welsh Kingdom 3rd Battalion The Rifles Elements of The Military Provost Staff Elements of The London Regiment Elements of 1st Military Working Dogs Regiment Elements of 3rd Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment Elements of 1st Military Intelligence Battalion Elements of 4th Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment Elements of 2nd Military Intelligence Battalion Elements of 3rd Battalion the Royal Welsh Elements of 3rd Military Intelligence Battalion Elements of 6th Battalion The Rifles Elements of 4th Military Intelligence Battalion Elements of 3 Regiment Army Air Corps Elements of 5th Military Intelligence Battalion WS 33 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 34

Elements of The Defence Cultural Specialist Unit I shall make a further Statement on the units we Elements of 15 Psychological Operations Group expect to serve under 12th Mechanised Brigade’s planned replacement formation, 4th Mechanised Brigade, nearer 604 Tactical Air Control Party the time of their deployment. 614 Tactical Air Control Party 621 Tactical Air Control Party Draft National Policy Statement for Waste 632 Tactical Air Control Party Water 2 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, Royal Air Force Elements of 24 Squadron, Royal Air Force Statement Elements of 30 Squadron, Royal Air Force The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department 12(B) Squadron, Royal Air Force for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor Elements of 5 (Army Co-Operation) Squadron, of Holbeach): My right honourable friend the Secretary Royal Air Force of State has today made the following Statement. Elements of 32 Squadron Royal Air Force Having considered consultation responses and the report of the Select Committee on Environment, Food Elements of 28 Squadron, Royal Air Force and Rural Affairs, I am today laying before Parliament Elements of 216 Squadron Royal Air Force the waste water national policy statement as an Elements of 101 Squadron Royal Air Force un-numbered Command Paper. At the same time, I Elements of 39 Squadron Royal Air Force am also laying, pursuant to Section 5(9)(b) of the Planning Act 2008, the Government’s response to the Elements of 27 Squadron, Royal Air Force Select Committee. Elements of 18 Squadron, Royal Air Force A written response to the consultation and an 617 Squadron, Royal Air Force updated version of the impact assessment is also being Elements of 99 Squadron Royal Air Force published on the department’s website at http:// www.defra.gov.uk/environment/quality/water/ Elements of 78 Squadron, Royal Air Force sewage/. Number 5 Royal Air Force, Force Protection Wing National policy statements are critical to the new Headquarters planning system, which will help developers bring Elements of Number 2 Royal Air Force Police forward waste water projects of national significance Wing without facing unnecessary delays, while ensuring local Elements of Number 3 Royal Air Force Police people have an opportunity to have a say about how Wing their communities develop, and that decisions are made in an accountable way by elected Ministers. 51 Squadron, Royal Air Force Regiment The waste water national policy statement sets out Elements of the Tactical Supply Wing, Royal Air our need for waste water infrastructure to protect Force public health and ensure the health of our water Elements of 1 Air Mobility Wing, Royal Air Force environment with the consequent benefits for our Elements of 1 Air Control Centre, Royal Air Force water supply and biodiversity. Despite measures which will slow the growth in demand for new waste water Elements of 90 Signals Unit, Royal Air Force infrastructure in England, for example the use of Elements of 2 (Mechanical Transport) Squadron, sustainable drainage systems, we will continue to need Royal Air Force investment in new waste water infrastructure in order Elements of 5001 Squadron, Royal Air Force to modernise outdated infrastructure, meet future demands from a growing population and the effects of climate Elements of 3 Mobile Catering Squadron change, and to fulfil our EU obligations. Elements of Tactical Medical Wing It has been agreed with the House that the same Elements of 1 (Expeditionary Logistics) Squadron procedure as set out in the Localism Act, when it Elements of 93 (Expeditionary Armaments) Squadron comes into effect, will be followed for national policy statements already in development. I intend to designate Elements of Tactical Imagery Wing the national policy statement after a period of 21 sitting Elements of 5131(BD) Sqn days has elapsed, or following a debate in the House of Volunteer and ex-Regular members of the Reserve Commons if the House wishes one, and approves the Forces will continue to deploy to Afghanistan as part national policy statement, within that period. of this integrated force package, and we expect to issue around 300 call-out notices. On completion of their mobilisation procedures, the reservists will undertake Elected Mayors a period of training and, where applicable, integration Statement with their respective receiving units. The majority will serve on operations for around six months. As part of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department this commitment, we expect up to six members of the for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): Sponsored Reserves to be in theatre at any one time. My right honourable friend the Minister for Decentralisation The UK’s conventional force level is expected to and Cities (Greg Clark) has made the following Written remain at 9,500 for the duration of the deployment. Ministerial Statement. WS 35 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 36

Following parliamentary approval, I have now made encourage people both to register and to vote. We orders under Section 9N of the Local Government published our proposals for consultation and for scrutiny Act 2000, which come into force today, and which by the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee require mayoral referendums to be held on 3 May (PCRC) because this is a vital part of our democracy, 2012 in Birmingham, Bradford, Bristol, Coventry, Leeds, so we want our plans to be tested, and we want to be Manchester, Newcastle upon Tyne, Nottingham, Sheffield sure that the choices we make on the costs and benefits and Wakefield. of the options open to us are well informed. We are In its coalition agreement, the Government committed grateful for the feedback that we have received not to creating directly elected mayors in the 12 largest only from the committee, but from everyone who took English cities outside London, subject to confirmatory the time to respond to our White Paper. referendums and full scrutiny by elected councillors. In addition to putting our proposals out for testing, We are clear from experience both internationally we have actively sought evidence from a range of other and here in this country that elected executive mayors sources to inform policy development. can significantly enhance the leadership of our major The research we funded the Electoral Commission cities, delivering greater economic growth and prosperity. to undertake has underlined the case for reform of the Led by a mayor, our cities will have the potential to way people carry out their civic duty of registering to perform even more strongly economically, socially and vote. We commissioned a literature review of research environmentally, making the contribution that they in this area from Dr Stuart Wilks-Heeg, a respected should to the growth and success of the country’s academic, which is published alongside this paper and economy. adds further to the evidence base which informs our Leicester elected its city mayor in May 2011. On decisions. 7 February 2012, Liverpool City Council resolved that We have paid attention to the lessons learnt from their city will have a directly elected mayor and plan to experience of Northern Ireland including the importance hold the first election for a Liverpool mayor on 3 May of carrying forward electors who have not registered 2012. in the first canvass under the new system, and their The orders I have made are the next major step excellent work in registering new voters including working towards creating mayors in the remaining 10 cities. in partnership with schools to encourage young people Local people in each of these cities will now have the to register. opportunity to say whether they want their city to have an elected mayor. Where the people decide in the The principle of introducing IER was widely supported referendum that their city should have an elected by both by the PCRC and those who responded to the mayor, they will elect their first mayor on 15 November White Paper. We have listened to the feedback expressed 2012. about elements of the Government’s proposals and are proposing a number of key changes to the proposals I have also now made, following parliamentary included in the White Paper. In particular we want to approval, the Local Authorities (Conduct of Referendums) ensure there are more safeguards in place to ensure as (England) Regulations 2012 which make provision for many eligible people as possible stay on the electoral the conduct of referendums about local governance register during the transition and that we can focus on changes, including, the conduct of the referendums those people eligible to vote but missing from the required by the orders. register. The major changes to the policy position are As we made clear in the parliamentary debates on as follows: the draft orders, it was open to any of the city councils, before their order was made, to resolve to move to an Simplifying the transition elected mayor. Liverpool has done so, and hence I Over the past year, we have carried out a series of have not made an order for Liverpool. data-matching pilots, comparing electoral registers in 22 areas with a range of data from public authorities. While the final evaluation is still being concluded, the Electoral Registration evidence so far suggests that comparing entries on an Statement electoral register with information held by the DWP allows us to confirm as accurate a significant majority (an average of two thirds for that data set alone in the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord pilot areas) of entries on the registers concerned. McNally): My honourable friend the Minister for Political and Constitutional Reform (Mark Harper) Subject to the results of the full evaluation, and has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. further testing this year with stakeholders, we are therefore minded to build on this to simplify the I am announcing today the publication of the transition to IER for the majority of electors. It is now Government response to the pre-legislative scrutiny our intention that the name and address of all individuals and public consultation on individual electoral registration on an electoral register when IER is introduced will be (IER) and changes to electoral administration. matched against the data held by public bodies such as Last June, we set out our proposals for improving the DWP and local authorities themselves. If an elector’s the electoral system through the introduction of IER information can be matched, the individual will be in Great Britain. automatically placed on to the new IER register and As we said then, the electoral register is a key would not need to take any further action to be building block of our democracy. We see both registering registered under IER. Only those people who cannot to vote and voting as civic duties and we strongly be confirmed automatically will be invited to provide WS 37 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 38 identifying information to be verified. This should EU: Competitiveness Council simplify the transition process for the majority of electors, reducing the number of people required to Statement provide personal identifiers and will also allow EROs to free up resource to target the smaller group of people whose information cannot be matched and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department those who are currently missing from the register. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): The Informal EU Competitiveness Council took place Compulsion and Personal Choice in Copenhagen on 2 and 3 February 2012. I represented It remains our firm belief that registering to vote is the UK on both days of the council. A summary of a civic duty; we have taken into account the concerns those discussions follows. raised by the PCRC and those who responded to the The research session of the council on 2 February consultation about the possible impact that an up-front was preceded by a conference on 1 February, attended opt-out could have on registration levels. As we made by BIS officials, discussing informally the structure of clear last year, we are minded to amend this provision the Horizon 2020 programme. This included three and intend either to retain the opt-out but require a plenary sessions on excellent science, industrial leadership, person wishing to do so to complete a separate application, and societal challenges. or to entirely remove this option altogether. There has also been widespread discussion of whether The research council then began on the 2 February, it should be an offence for an individual not to register hosted by Danish Minister for Research, Innovation to vote when invited to do so. Despite the strong and Higher Education, Morten Østergaard. There feelings expressed in the consultation on this issue, our were presentations from EU Commissioners Geoghegan- view is that the evidence is not conclusive that introducing Quinn and Hahn on Commission proposals on Horizon a new criminal offence will make any significant difference 2020, followed by three plenary sessions centring on to registration levels, nor do we feel it is appropriate three of the key challenges Horizon 2020 must address. that we use the threat of a criminal offence to promote These are; improving complementariness with other greater engagement in the electoral process. However, EU programmes (principally structural and cohesion there are arguments for and against introducing a civil funds); simplifying rules of participation; and bridging penalty for non-response to an invitation to register, the valley of death between basic science and and some important practical implications to resolve commercialisation. on how such a system could work. I attended the third session regarding the gap between We will explore these issues, including with our key basic science and commercialisation. I intervened to stakeholders and in light of this decide on the approach press for a stronger focus on the successful exploitation to take on both a civil penalty and the opt-out. We will of research, and for support for innovation to be set out our decision on this in the legislation when embedded throughout Horizon 2020. I also pressed introduced. the Commission to come forward with more detailed proposals for pan-European venture capital support Move the 2013 household canvass to 2014 and a version of the small business research initiative. Among the other workshops, member states pressed We have listened to concerns that the gap between for more clarity on the link between Horizon 2020 and the last old-style household canvass and the amended structural and cohesion funds, and for more ambitious canvass in 2014 is too long. Therefore to ensure that a plans for simplification. more accurate and up to date register is used as the basis of the new register we are planning to delay the The industry and internal market council followed annual canvass in 2013 to the early part of 2014. on 3 February. This was hosted by the Danish Minister We believe that these changes, along with the others for Business and Growth, Ole Sohn, and was focused outlined in the Government’s response, will significantly on the digital single market. Minister Sohn opened the strengthen these proposals. The full response to the council with a speech setting out six current and PCRC’s report and the views expressed during the upcoming dossiers which should help the digital single public consultation on our White Paper and draft market reach its full potential; e-payments, e-invoicing, legislation are set out in the Command Paper, but they e-procurement, common IT standards, the e-signatures are not our final word on the subject. package and the alternative dispute resolution. This was followed by speeches from Michel Barnier and As we continue to refine our proposals ahead of Neelie Kroes, acting in their capacities as Commissioners introduction of legislation later this year, we will continue for Internal Market and Services, and the Digital to work closely with stakeholders to further inform Agenda respectively. our thinking and develop our proposals. We have listened and learned, and we shall continue to do so. Two workshops were then held focusing on both supply and demand in the digital single market. The Copies of this Command Paper have been placed in main conclusion from the supply workshop was that it the Libraries of both Houses. We will also be shortly is imperative to boost the trust of consumers when publishing on the Cabinet Office website only a literature ordering online. From the demand workshop, it emerged review on electoral registration, written by Dr Stuart that the mutual recognition of e-signatures is crucial Wilks-Heeg, and a high-level implementation timeline to improving e-invoicing, and that e-billing systems for individual electoral registration. should be accessible across EU borders. WS 39 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 40

EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Alistair Burt) and Consumer Affairs Council has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Members will recall that in July 1997 the Government Statement announced their policy on preventing British companies from manufacturing, selling or procuring equipment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department designed primarily for torture. Reference was made to for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My right honourable the UK taking the necessary measures to prevent the friend the Minister of State for Employment (Chris export from or transhipment through the UK of portable Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial devices designed or modified for riot control purposes Statement. or self-protection that administer an electric-shock. This included electric discharge shock guns, of which The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Taser is a brand. Affairs Council will be held on 17 February 2012 in Brussels. My honourable friend, Norman Lamb, Minister The Government are committed to maintaining for Employment Relations, Consumer and Postal Affairs this policy given their commitment to preventing British at the Department of Business, Innovation and Skills companies from manufacturing, selling or procuring will represent the United Kingdom. equipment designed primarily for torture and to continuing to press for a global ban on such equipment. There will be three roundtable discussions at this meeting. The first will be a policy debate on women on We therefore propose to maintain this prohibition company boards. My honourable friend, Norman Lamb on the export, transhipment, and trade in such equipment will stress that the UK is committed to seeing more to all destinations, except in certain very limited and women on company boards. He will further highlight specific circumstances with regard to Tasers in specific the merits of industry-led measures that achieve real cases relating to approved use by UK police. culture change as opposed to the setting of legally The need to allow the limited export of Tasers has binding quotas. arisen because of operational difficulties for UK police The second discussion is scheduled to be an initial services, police services of the Crown Dependencies exchange of views on new European Commission and some British Overseas Territories who seek to use proposals related to the posting of workers. The proposals Tasers, consistent with their use by UK police forces, are yet to be published. When responding to these as a measured alternative to the use of lethal force. proposals, my honourable friend Norman Lamb will The Government will therefore now consider make clear that in considering the proposals the UK applications for the grant of a licence for the export of will take account of their likely impact on growth, Tasers, but only under the following limited circumstances: competitiveness and jobs. where the export of Tasers is to the police service The third discussion will be a policy debate on the of a Crown Dependency or UK Overseas Territory implementation of the Europe 2020 Strategy in the and where it has been specifically recommended by field of employment and social policy. The debate will Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary that centre on a set of council conclusions on the Joint such a police service adopts the use of such Employment Report priorities for action. My honourable equipment by trained officers as an alternative to friend Norman Lamb will stress the need for deeper the use of lethal firearms, and that the use of the structural reforms to get European economies moving equipment is in line with the accepted standards set and people back into work. He will acknowledge that for UK police officers; or the conclusions fully reflect the mandate given to where Tasers constitute officially issued equipment council by heads of state and Government in December for use by suitably trained UK police officers who 2010 and at last month’s informal European Council are being deployed in support of a police operation for EU Employment Ministers to exchange views on in a Crown Dependency or Overseas Territory, and the effective functioning of labour markets. where that deployment has been requested by the Under any other business, the Commission will chief police officer of the Crown Dependency or provide information on transitional arrangements on Overseas Territory; or the free movement of workers from Bulgaria and where the equipment belonging to a UK police Romania. The presidency will provide information on force, the police service of a Crown Dependency or the preparation of the tripartite social summit. The UK Overseas Territory, or to an authorised agent Commission and presidency will provide information working on their behalf, is being returned to the on preparation for the G20 meeting of Labour and original manufacturer for repair, or replacement of Employment Ministers; and on the Euro-Mediterranean faulty equipment, or as unwanted goods. Employment and Labour High Level Working Group. Finally, the Employment Committee and Social Protection Committee chairs will provide information on their work programmes for 2012. Flooding and Coastal Erosion Statement Exports: Tasers Statement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of Holbeach): My honourable friend the Parliamentary Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My honourable Under-Secretary for Natural Environment and Fisheries friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State (Richard Benyon) has today made the following Statement. WS 41 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 42

I am today, in conjunction with the Environment On 7 February, the Administration and Works Agency, announcing details of flood and coastal erosion Committee considered this report and unanimously risk management schemes going ahead in the next concluded that there were compelling security grounds financial year. In additional to the continuing construction for continuing with the trial arrangements. A number of over 80 schemes, a total of 60 new schemes will of small changes have already been introduced which begin construction in the coming year. When complete have significantly reduced delays and inconvenience. these new schemes will give over 25,000 homes a better In the longer term, it will be possible to remedy most level of protection from the devastating effects of of the other difficulties with the new arrangements flooding and coastal erosion. and improve the safety of pedestrians by altering the This Government will spend £2.17 billion on managing layout of the car park and steel barriers. In particular, the risk of flooding and coastal erosion over this the Committee agreed that further work should be spending period (April 2011-March 2015). We have taken forwards with a view to: prioritised areas of severe flood and coastal erosion creating a specially designated lay-by for taxis, risk, and households in deprived communities. Of the which would allow taxis to drop off and pick up 145,000 homes that will be better protected by 2015, passengers without impeding pedestrian access and around half will be in areas of significant flood risk without causing congestion for other vehicles; and almost 15,000 homes will be both at significant locating this lay-by directly opposite Peers’ flood risk and in the most deprived parts of the Entrance, to shorten the distance between the taxi country. drop-off point and Peers’ Entrance; New estimates show that the risk management altering the access arrangements for leaving Peers’ authorities are on track to exceed the goal of better car park to speed up exit times; and protecting 145,000 homes by March 2015. This is in part due to the new partnership approach to funding rearranging the street furniture to remove the short that has helped secure £72 million of external contributions section of contra-flow traffic and provide a clearly for projects over the next three years. Regional Flood delineated walkway for pedestrians. and Coastal Committees, which include local authority These significant improvements cannot be made representatives, have worked with local communities immediately. In the mean time, Black Rod is willing to to attract flood defence funding from external sources attend party and group meetings to brief Members such as businesses, private investors and local authorities. orally on the proposed improvements. Members of the For example, in South Derbyshire, Nestlé has contributed Administration and Works Committee are also willing £1.7 million to a £7 million scheme to protect 1,600 homes to discuss this at their own party meetings. The and further financial contributions have been made Administration and Works Committee will continue from industry, the community and local landowners. to monitor the new arrangements in Peers’ car park, A scheme in Water End, York, which was turned down and will seek to make further improvements where for funding last year, is going ahead after the Environment necessary. Agency worked with York City Council to agree a package of cost reductions and partnership contributions. Other schemes that will go ahead next year include Housing Warrington in Cheshire, protecting over 2,000 households, Statement Salmons Brook in North London, protecting over 1,300 households, and Godmanchester in Cambridgeshire, protecting over 300 households. The Environment Agency The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, has also committed to increasing the number of Department for Communities and Local Government households receiving free flood warnings to over (Baroness Hanham): My right honourable friend the 1.1 million. Minister of State for Housing and Local Government The full programme of schemes going ahead in (Grant Shapps) has made the following Written Ministerial 2012-13 alongside a provisional programme for future Statement. years will be published on the Environment Agency I am today announcing £20 million funding for website later today. local housing authorities for preventing repossessions. £19 million is allocated for a Preventing Repossessions House of Lords: Peers’ Car Park Fund and £1 million will contribute to housing court Statement possessions duty desks. The £19 million Preventing Repossessions Fund The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of provides additional options for local housing authorities Tara): On 8 December 2011, I made a Written Statement to tackle repossessions in their area as part of their to the House notifying Members that the Administration duties to prevent homelessness. This will be achieved and Works Committee had agreed to a three-month by offering small interest-free loans, or grants, to trial of new vehicle access arrangements in the Peers’ households at risk of repossession. Small loans can car park. These new arrangements were put in place address immediate, short-term financial difficulties, on 3 January 2012. Following feedback from Members, allow breathing space, and avoid households becoming on 16 January I made an oral Statement to the House, homeless due to mortgage possession. This funding informing Members that I had asked Black Rod to has been allocated to local authorities using weighted produce an interim report on the trial for the criteria which reflect demand and which reward Administration and Works Committee to consider at homelessness preventions. All local housing authorities its next meeting. will receive funding. WS 43 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 44

£1 million is allocated to local housing authorities which enables others to be set below cost recovery to to fund housing court possession duty desks within support wider government objectives. The revenue the 54 county courts in England that are not already generated will contribute towards securing the UK’s funded by other sources, such as the Legal Services border and controlling migration for the benefit of the Commission. Court desks offer households free legal UK. These fees must be set out in regulations before advice and representation on the day of a possession both Houses of Parliament and are subject to the court hearing, regardless of an individual’s financial affirmative legislative procedure. In addition, I will circumstances. This funding ensures universal access shortly lay another set of regulations in Parliament for so that all households at risk of possession or eviction the fees for immigration and nationality services that can access free legal advice when attending court. are set at or below the administrative cost of the Details of the amount awarded to each authority service. Further details of all fees changes will be will be available on the department’s website. A table outlined in the Explanatory Memoranda accompanying giving the funds provided to individual authorities has both sets of regulations. Subject to parliamentary been placed in the Library of the House. approval, the Government hope to bring the new fees into force from 6 April 2012. A range of government support is already in place to help homeowners at risk of repossession including support for mortgage interest, a Department for Work Details of all the proposed increases are set out in and Pensions benefit to help out-of-work households the table attached (new fees are shown in italics). The to meet their monthly interest payments (£386 million table includes indicative unit costs for each application is forecast to be spent in 2011-12). The Government for financial year 2012-13. The unit cost is the estimated have invested £221 million over the next two years for average cost to the UK Border Agency of processing the mortgage rescue scheme, aimed at vulnerable each application. Although these unit costs are not homeowners at risk of repossession. This scheme has fixed over the course of the financial year, the unit been improved to deliver better value for money for costs are published so it is clear which fees we set over the taxpayer. The Government have also asked the cost and by how much. Money Advice Service to establish a strategy for delivering free debt advice to empower consumers to take charge In developing these proposals, the UK Border Agency of their finances. has sought to limit most increases to approximately 2 per cent. In addition, the fees paid by dependants, In addition, the Government’s ongoing efforts to for applications made within the UK, are being maintained tackle the record deficit will help avoid rapid increases at the current level of 50 per cent of a main applicant’s in interest rates, which would put further pressure on fee. In future the UK Border Agency will look to already stretched family budgets. Interest payments charge the same fee in the UK for dependants and for mortgages are currently the lowest as a proportion main applicants, as currently already happens for visa of total income since records began. applications made overseas.

Immigration Full details on how to apply for all of these services will be provided on the UK Border Agency’s website: Statement www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Out of Country My honourable friend the Minister of State for Visas—non PBS (New products are shown in Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the italics) April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 following Written Ministerial Statement. I am announcing proposals to change the fees for Visit visa - short £140 £76 £78 immigration and nationality applications made to the Visit visa - long 2 year £140 £265 £270 UK Border Agency. The Government review these Visit visa - long 5 year £140 £486 £496 fees on a regular basis and make appropriate changes Visit visa - long 10 year £140 £702 £716 Short Term Student Visa £140 £140 £140 as necessary. I am today laying regulations for fees (between6&11months) that are set at levels above the estimated administrative Settlement £391 £810 £826 costs of the service. We have continued with our Settlement Armed Forces £391 £810 £810 strategic approach to charging; setting certain fees Dependants above cost on the basis of the value of the service. Settlement - Dependant £458 £1,814 £1,850 Relative Given the ongoing need to reduce public spending, Settlement (Refugee £458 n/a £458 we believe it is right that we continue to seek to reduce dependant relative)* the burden on UK taxpayers of delivering the border Certificate of Entitlement £355 £265 £270 and immigration system by asking migrants to make a Other Visa £163 £265 £270 greater contribution to the funding of the UK Border Transit Visa £73 £51 £52 Agency. The UK Border Agency has given careful Media Representatives* £250 n/a £480 consideration to its fee levels, to ensure it can maintain Vignette Transfer Fee £163 £100 £102 good service levels to customers and secure the border Call Out/Out of Hours £134/hr 130/hr max £130/hr for the general public. Fee £939/day Single entry visa to £70 £70 £70 Some fees are set above the administrative cost of Replace Biometric providing the service to generate the revenue which is Residence Permit used to help fund the UK immigration system and Overseas WS 45 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 46

Out of Country In Country Visas—non PBS (New Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees products are shown in Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees Nationality April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 italics) April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 Nationality Registration £272 £810 £827 Forwarding documents to n/a £70 £70 Multiple Minor Main ** Commonwealth Countries Nationality Registration £181 £270 £276 / Overseas Territories Multiple Minor (additional fee). Dependant ** Handling applications on n/a £50 £50 Renunciation of £238 £225 £229 behalf of Commonwealth Nationality Countries/ Overseas Territories. Nationality Reissued £91 £86 £88 Certificate * Both previously applied for under other visa category Nationality Right of £181 £162 £165 Abode Nationality £181 £80 £80 Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees Reconsiderations Visa – PBS April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 Status Letter £91 £86 £88 Tier 1 (Entrepreneur, £432 £800 £816 (Nationality) Investor, Exceptional Non-Acquisition Letter £91 £86 £88 Talent) - Main Apps (Nationality) Tier 1 (Entrepreneur, £432 £800 £816 Nationality Correction to £91 £86 £88 Investor, Exceptional Certificate Talent) - All Dependants Tier 1 CESC - Main Apps £432 £720 £734 * Additional £80 per applicant is included to cover the ceremony Tier 1 (Transition) n/a £332 £332 fee Tier 1 (Transition) CESC n/a £300 £300 - Main Apps ** Additional £80 per applicant is required to cover the Tier 1 Post Study Work - £459 £474 £483 ceremony fee should the minor turn 18 during the application Dependants process. This will be requested at point of decision Tier 2 General, ICT – £250 £400 £480 Long term staff, Sport & MOR - Main Apps In Country Tier 2 General, ICT – £250 £400 £480 Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees Long term staff, Sport & In UK - Non PBS April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 MOR - Dependants Tier 2 General, ICT – £250 £360 £432 ILR Postal Main £255 £972 £991 Long term staff, Sport & ILR Postal All £255 £486 £496 MOR - CESC - Main dependants Apps ILR Postal CESC Main £255 £875 £893 Tier 2 ICT Short term £227 £350 £400 staff, Graduate Trainee or ILR Postal CESC £255 £486 £496 Skills Transfer - Main Dependant Apps & Dependants ILR PEO Main £255 £1,350 £1,377 Tier 2 ICT Short term £227 £315 £360 ILR PEO Dependant £255 £675 £689 staff, Graduate Trainee or ILR PEO CESC Main £255 £1,215 £1,239 Skills Transfer - CESC - Main Apps ILR PEO CESC £255 £675 £689 Dependant Tier 4 - Main Apps £289 £255 £289 ILR Dependant Relative £299 £1,814 £1,850 Tier 4 - Dependants £289 £255 £289 Postal Tier 5 Temp Work & £206 £190 £194 ILR Dependant Relative £299 £2,214 £2,258 Youth Mobility - Main PEO Apps LTR Other Postal Main £308 £550 £561 Tier 5 All Dependants £206 £190 £194 LTR Other Postal £308 £275 £281 Tier 5 CESC - Main Apps £206 £171 £175 Dependant CESC = Council of Europe Social Charter reduction LTR Other PEO Main £307 £850 £867 ICT = Intra Company Transfer LTR Other PEO £307 £425 £434 Dependant MOR = Minister of Religion Transfer of Conditions £229 £216 £220 Applications to the Channel Islands under Employment and Postal Main Study routes attract Tier 2 & Tier 4 fees and costs respectively Transfer of Conditions £229 £108 £110 Postal Dependant Transfer of Conditions £229 £648 £661 In Country PEO Main Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees Transfer of Conditions £229 £324 £331 Nationality April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 PEO Dependant Travel Documents Adult £249 £238 £238 Naturalisation (UK £181 £836 £851 (CoT) Citizenship) Single * Travel Documents Adult £159 £77.50 £77.50 Naturalisation (UK £272 £1,294 £1,317 CTD Citizenship) Joint * Travel Documents Child £159 £149 £149 Naturalisation (UK £181 £836 £851 (CoT) Citizenship) Spouse * Travel Documents Child £113 £49 £49 Nationality Registration £181 £620 £631 CTD Adult * BRP/Replacement £37 £37 £37 Nationality Registration £181 £540 £551 Biometric Residence Minor ** Permit WS 47 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 48

In Country In Country Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees In UK - PBS (New In UK - Non PBS April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 products are shown in Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees italics) April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 Mobile Case working £2,211 £6,000+PEO £6,000 + (Premium+) Fee PEO Fee Tier 1 – PEO All £181 £650 £663 Call Out/Out of Hours £134/hr £130/hr £130/hr Dependants Fee (Entrepreneur, Investor, Work Permit Technical £123 £22 £22 Exceptional Talent) Changes Tier 1 - PEO CESC Main £181 £1,170 £1,193 Residual FLR IED Postal £246 £550 £561 (Entrepreneur, - Main Exceptional Talent) Residual FLR IED Postal £238 £275 £281 Tier 1 - Transition Postal n/a £500 £500 - Dependants Main Residual FLR IED PEO - £148 £850 £867 Tier 1 - Transition Postal n/a £250 £250 Main Dependant Residual FLR IED PEO - £148 £425 £434 Tier 1 - Transition PEO n/a £700 £700 Dependants Main Residual FLR BUS Postal £148 £1,000 £1,020 Tier 1 - Transition PEO n/a £350 £350 - Main Dependant Residual FLR BUS Postal £148 £500 £510 Tier1–Graduate £181 n/a £700 - Dependants Entrepreneur Postal Main Employment LTR outside £253 £550 £561 Tier1–Graduate £181 n/a £630 PBS Postal Entrepreneur CESC Postal Employment LTR outside £253 £275 £281 Main PBS Postal Dependant Tier1–Graduate £181 n/a £350 Employment LTR outside £259 £850 £867 Entrepreneur Postal All PBS PEO Dependants Employment LTR outside £259 £425 £434 Tier1–Graduate £181 n/a £1,000 PBS PEO Dependant Entrepreneur PEO Main Additional Out of Hours n/a £300 £300 Tier1–Graduate £181 n/a £900 Premium* - PEO Main Entrepreneur PEO CESC Additional Out of Hours n/a £150 £150 Main Premium* - PEO Dependant Tier1–Graduate £181 n/a £500 Entrepreneur PEO All * Out of hours fee payable on top of standard PEO fee Dependants CESC = Council of Europe Social Charter reduction LTR = Tier 2 – General, ICT – £160 £550 £561 Leave to Remain Long term staff, Sport & MOR - Postal Main PEO = Public Enquiry Office Tier 2 - General, ICT – ILR = Indefinite Leave to Remain Long term staff, Sport & FLR = Further Leave to Remain MOR - Postal IED = Immigration Employment Document All Dependants £160 £275 £281 Postal = Postal or Online applications where online application is Tier 2 - General, ICT – £160 £495 £505 Long term staff, Sport & available MOR - Postal CESC Main

In Country Tier 2 - General, ICT – £160 £850 £867 Long term staff, Sport & In UK - PBS (New MOR - PEO Main products are shown in Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees applicant italics) April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 Tier 2 - General, ICT – £160 £425 £434 Tier 1 - Postal Main £181 £1,000 £1,500 Long term staff, Sport & (General) MOR - PEO All Tier 1 - Postal All £181 £500 £750 Dependants Dependants (General) Tier 2 - General, ICT – £160 £765 £780 Tier 1 - PEO Main £181 £1,300 £1,800 Long term staff, Sport & (General) MOR - PEO CESC Main Tier 1 - PEO All £181 £650 £900 Tier 2 ICT – Short term £160 £350 £400 Dependants (General) staff, Graduate Trainee or Tier 1 - Postal CESC £181 £900 £1,350 Skills Transfer Postal Main (General) Main Tier 1 - PEO CESC Main £181 £1,170 £1,620 Tier 2 ICT – Short term £160 £175 £200 (General) staff, Graduate Trainee or Skills Transfer Postal All Tier 1 - Postal Main £181 £1,000 £1,020 Dependants (Entrepreneur, Investor, Exceptional Talent) Tier 2 - ICT – Short term £160 £315 £360 Tier 1 - Postal All £181 £500 £510 staff, Graduate Trainee or Dependants Skills Transfer Postal (Entrepreneur, Investor, CESC Main Exceptional Talent) Tier 2 - ICT – Short term £160 £650 £700 Tier 1 – Postal Main £181 £900 £918 staff, Graduate Trainee or CESC (Entrepreneur, Skills Transfer PEO Exceptional Talent) Tier 2 - ICT – Short term £160 £325 £350 Tier 1 – PEO Main £181 £1,300 £1,326 staff, Graduate Trainee or (Entrepreneur, Investor, Skills Transfer PEO Exceptional Talent) Dependants WS 49 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 50

In Country Justice: Reform In UK - PBS (New Statement products are shown in Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees italics) April 2012 April 2011 April 2012

Tier 2 ICT – Short term £160 £585 £630 staff, Graduate Trainee or The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Skills Transfer PEO McNally): My honourable friend the Parliamentary CESC Main Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Jonathan Tier 4 - Postal Main £259 £386 £394 Djanogly) has made the following Written Ministerial Tier 4 - Postal All £259 £193 £197 Dependants Statement. Tier 4 - PEO Main £259 £702 £716 I am today announcing the publication of the Tier 4 - PEO All £259 £351 £358 Government’s response to the civil justice consultation Dependants on Solving disputes in the county courts, which included Tier 5 - Postal Main £196 £190 £194 proposals to modernise the civil justice system and Tier 5 - Postal All £196 £95 £97 make it simpler, quicker, cheaper and more effective. Dependants Tier 5 - Postal CESC £196 £171 £175 The consultation was launched by the Ministry of Main Justice on 29 March 2011 and closed on 30 June 2011. Tier 5 - PEO Main £145 £648 £661 Based on the broad support many of the Government’s Tier 5 - PEO All £145 £324 £330 Dependants proposals received, we plan to increase the small claims Tier 5 - PEO CESC Main £145 £583 £595 limit to £10,000 initially, with a possible further increase PBS Dependants £418 £550 £561 to £15,000 in the future after evaluation. We do not Applying Separately - recommend an increase to the fast track limit at this Postal time. PBS Dependants £419 £850 £867 Applying Separately - All small claims will be automatically referred to PEO mediation, on the basis that this is not compulsory Tier 4 - Permission to £160 £160 £160 mediation, but rather a requirement to engage with a Change Sponsor * small claims mediator. Mandatory information sessions for higher value claims will not be introduced. CESC = Council of Europe Social Charter reduction After liaising further with stakeholders we will be extending to £25,000 the existing RTA PI scheme to PEO = Public Enquiry Office provide a speedier, more transparent system for dealing with low value personal injury claims arising out of ICT = Intra Company Transfer accidents. This will assist in deterring spurious claims, while ensuring compensation is available more quickly MOR = Minister of Religion where it is merited. The Government will proceed with streamlining Postal = Postal or Online applications where online application is procedures and commencement of certain provisions available of Part 4 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, which have already been approved by Parliament. * For migrants that applied to UKBA for permission to study from 31 March 2009 to 4 October 2009 A single county court for England and Wales will be established and provisions introduced to enable cases and judges to be allocated more efficiently and In Country effectively. Specialist claims will be placed under the PBS Sponsorship (New products are shown in Unit Costs Previous Fees New Fees exclusive jurisdiction of the High Court. italics) April 2012 April 2011 April 2012 The document is available online at: http:// Premium Scheme Large n/a n/a £25,000 www.justice.gov.uk. Enterprises Premium Scheme Small n/a n/a £8,000 Sponsors Pensions Tier 2 Large Sponsor £1,531 £1,025 £1,500 Licence Statement Tier 2 Small Sponsor £1,531 £310 £500 Licence Tier 4 Sponsor Licence £1,531 £410 £500 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Tier 5 Sponsor Licence £1,531 £410 £500 for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): Tier 2, Tier 4 &/or Tier 5 £1,531 £615 £1,000 My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Licence (where sponsor of State for Communities and Local Government (Bob currently holds T4 or T5 licence) Neill) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Highly Trusted Sponsor £1,531 £410 £500 Following constructive discussions with the firefighters’ Licence trades unions, on 8 December I wrote to all of the Sponsor Action Plan £1,531 £1,000 £1,500 firefighters’ trades unions to issue the cost ceiling for Tier 2 COS £153 £175 £179 the Firefighters’Pension Scheme. This included a generous Tier 5 COS £13 £10 £13 accrual rate, and provided protection for all those Tier 4 CAS £13 £10 £13 within 10 years of their current scheme’s normal pension WS 51 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 52 age from any change in when they can retire, nor any they receive at their current normal pension age. decrease in the pension they receive at their current This protection will be achieved by the member normal pension age. remaining in their current scheme until they retire; The Government pay tribute to the importance of there will be a further four years of tapered the work undertaken by our fire and rescue service protection for scheme members. Members who are and the bravery, dedication and professionalism of the up to 14 years from their current normal pension men and women who work within it. The Government age, as of 1 April 2012, will have limited protection are committed to providing public service pensions so that on average for every month of age they are that are sustainable, fair and effective. beyond 10 years of their normal pension age, they Building on the proposals brought forward by Lord gain about 53 days of protection. The last day of Hutton, these proposals aim to strike a balanced deal protected service for any member will be 31 March between public service workers and the taxpayer. They 2022. will ensure that public service workers continue to The main parameters of the new scheme are set out have access to good pensions, while taxpayers benefit below: from greater control over their costs. a pension scheme design based on career average Public sector pensions will remain among the very revalued earnings; best available—a guaranteed level and inflation proofed. a provisional accrual rate of 1/58.7th of pensionable Only one in 10 private sector workers have access to earnings each year, subject to further agreement on such schemes. the outstanding issues; I am pleased to report that the heads of agreement there will be no cap on how much pension can be for the design of a new pension scheme for firefighters accrued; in England has now been established. Each trades a revaluation rate of active members’ benefits in union with firefighter members will now consider the line with average weekly earnings; main design elements of a new scheme to be available for their members from 2015. Further work will take pensions in payment and deferred benefits to increase place over the coming weeks to establish the final in line with Prices Index (currently Consumer Prices details and Executives can consult members as appropriate. Index); I am particularly grateful for the manner in which average member contributions of 13.2 per cent from firefighters’ trades unions have maintained a constructive April 2015, with some protection for new entrants. dialogue over the emerging detailed elements of the However, the Government will review the impact of new scheme. Further discussion will now take place the proposed 2012-13 contribution changes, including through the scheme’s Pension Reform Group. the effect of membership opt-outs, before taking final decisions on how future increases will be delivered There will be full protection for the accrued rights in 2013-14 and 2014-15, and in the new scheme; of existing scheme members: flexible retirement from the scheme’s minimum pension all benefits accrued under final salary arrangements age of 55, built around the scheme’s normal pension will be linked to the members’final salary, in accordance age of 60, with members able to take their pension with the rules of the members’ current schemes, from minimum pension age as follows: when they leave the reformed scheme; for all active members who are aged 57 or more at full recognition of a members’ expectation to double retirement, 2015 scheme benefits taken before normal accrual for service accrued under the Firefighters’ pension age will be actuarially reduced with reference Pension Scheme 1992 (the 1992 scheme), so that a to the 2015 scheme’s normal pension age, rather member’s full continuous pensionable service upon than the deferred pension age; and retirement will be used to calculate an averaged all other members will have their 2015 scheme accrual rate to be applied to service accrued under benefits actuarially reduced on a cost neutral basis the 1992 scheme; from the scheme’s deferred pension age; members to be able to access their 1992 scheme the normal pension age will be subject to regular benefits when they retire at that scheme’s ordinary review. These reviews will consider the increasing pension age (ie from age 50 with 25 or more years state pension age and any changes to it, alongside pensionable service), subject to abatement rules for evidence from interested parties, including unions that scheme. Pensionable service for the purpose of and employers. It will consider if the normal pension calculating the ordinary pension age will include age of 60 remains relevant, taking account of the any continuous pensionable service accrued under economical, efficient and effective management of both the 1992 scheme and the 2015 scheme; and the fire service, the changing profile of the workforce members will continue to have access to an actuarially and the occupational demands of, and fitness standards assessed commutation factor for benefits accrued for, firefighting roles; under the 1992 scheme. this regular review will be informed by such research There also will be transitional protections for qualifying, carried out by the Firefighters’ Pension Committee, existing members: which will monitor and collate scheme data and all active scheme members who, as of 1 April 2012, experience; have 10 years or less to their current normal late retirement factors for members retiring from pension age will see no change in when they can active service to be actuarially neutral from normal retire, or any decrease in the amount of pension pension age; WS 53 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 54

a deferred pension age equal to the individuals’ cleansed data; state pension age; improved processes and controls; optional lump sum by commutation at a rate of £12 maintained or improved technology; for every £1 per annum of pension foregone in fit for purpose structure and corporate services; accordance with HMRC limits and regulations; better customer service tools; and abatement in existing schemes to continue; improved people capacity and capability. ill-health retirement and all other ancillary benefits to be based on the arrangements in the 2006 scheme; Many of these projects deal with improving underlying and processes and data to make RPA’s foundation more solid and the outputs may not be very visible to its an employer contribution cap and floor to provide customers during the life of the SIP itself. However, backstop protection to the taxpayer against unforeseen these projects will be crucially important in ensuring costs and risks. that the agency is on a sound footing to deal with the The Government Actuary’s Department has confirmed amount of change it faces over the next five years. that this scheme design does not exceed the cost ceiling Phase 2, the future options programme (FOP) will set by the Government. Copies of the Heads of Agreement take centre stage from 2014-17. The FOP is looking and the Government Actuary’s Department verification presently at alternative models for delivering some or report have been placed in the Library of the House. all of RPA’s business following the CAP scheme changes post-2013. Once the right operating model for the Rural Payments Agency future is established the FOP will assess delivery options, which may include various forms of outsourcing, and Statement then set in train the procurement process; all this activity will take place within the next two years. The The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department objective of the FOP is build on the work of the SIP to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor provide a much better service to RPA’s customers and of Holbeach): My right honourable friend the Minister much better value for money for the taxpayer. for Agriculture and Food (Jim Paice) has today made Annual RPA business plans will set out in more the following Statement. detail the expected costs and outputs in the year The Rural Payments Agency (RPA) is today publishing ahead. The business plan for 2012-13 is scheduled to a plan setting out how the agency will be transformed be published in April However, I can confirm now that over the next five years so that it delivers both vastly Defra is investing an addition £21.8 million in the next improved service to its customers and much better financial year, with a further £19.1 million provisionally value for money for taxpayers. I have arranged for earmarked for the following two financial years. This copies to be placed in the Libraries of the House. represents a serious commitment to finally drawing a line under RPA’s unfortunate legacy and putting it in This is an important turning point for the agency. the best possible position to implement the CAP 2013 The 2013 review of RPA which I published in July reforms. I will continue to chair the RPA Oversight 2010, provided an independent, evidenced based view Board in order to provide the necessary support and of RPA’s then current state as well as its readiness for challenge to ensure that objective is met. implementation of the expected reform of the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP 2013). The conclusions offered a stark assessment of the agency’s capabilities in terms of basic finance functions, customer service, IT, leadership UN: Rio+20 and governance. The negative effects on RPA customers Statement and for taxpayers were as clear as they were unacceptable. I said then that I would not allow that state of affairs to continue and that I would personally drive forward The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department progress by chairing a new Oversight Board. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My right honourable friend the Secretary Under a new chief executive and senior management of State has today made the following Statement. team improvements are already being seen at RPA. For example, my Written Statement of 11 January I would like to update the House on preparations 2012 (col.16 WS) reported that in December 2011 the for the UN conference on Sustainable Development, agency had made its highest ever proportion of SPS Rio+20, which will be held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, payments in the opening month of the payment window. on 20-22 June this year. It follows directly on from the However, as is made clear in the plan, further work is G20 summit in Los Cabos. required in a number of areas (data, controls, IT, Rio+20 has two major themes: the green economy organisational structure, systems and people) in order in the context of sustainable development and poverty to fully overcome the legacy of the failed implementation eradication; and the institutional framework for sustainable of the SPS in 2005. Meanwhile, the challenge of development. implementing the CAP 2013 reforms, currently under The UN’s negotiating text, entitled The Future We negotiation in Brussels, looms ever closer on the horizon. Want, was published on 10 January. It is based on over Against that background, the plan comes in two 250 contributions submitted by member states and parts. Phase 1, the strategic improvement plan (SIP) stakeholders. The UK welcomes this document as a involves a series of 45 projects which will run from starting point, but would like to see further prioritisation 2012-15 and deliver: and a focus on tangible actions. WS 55 Written Statements[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Statements WS 56

The UK will call for: path. Governments can and must provide the a clear political declaration that we need green framework for green growth, through reducing or growth; that development, the environment, and removing environmentally harmful subsidies, the economy are inextricably linked; and that we getting price signals right, standards and voluntary need to consider all three together for our future approaches, valuing natural resources, developing prosperity; indicators of green growth. We will also be calling for governments to take steps to measure and sustainable development goals (SDGs) to drive account for their natural and social capital, in international action and increase co-operation in addition to GDP; key sectors such as agriculture, water and energy. a clear focus on the private sector as drivers of SDGs should not and cannot distract attention green growth, through trade, innovation and away from achieving the millennium development investment. Rio should drive uptake of sustainable goals (MDGs) by 2015. The UK remains firmly business practices—in particular transparent and committed to delivering these goals. We must work coherent sustainability reporting, and resource towards a clear position beyond 2015 which builds efficiency; and on the millennium development goals, in which sustainable development goals could play an recommendations for institutional reform which important part. This is a priority for the UK and draw on the Prime Minister’s global governance an area in which we will take the lead with report for G20. Greater coherence, efficiency, and international colleagues; improved co-ordination are needed to deliver better outcomes at a lower cost. The UK supports action in key sectors for green growth: supporting a collective focus on interrelated issues and shared international initiatives to drive sustainable growth goals. in agriculture, sustainable energy access, water, and I will continue the dialogue with the private sector, forestry; civil society over the coming months, and will press for tangible outcomes that will put sustainability at the action on these priorities within the EU as well as heart of decision making and support all countries internationally. I will keep Parliament updated on in efforts to move to a more sustainable growth progress as the negotiations evolve.

WA 83 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 84 Written Answers Bahrain Question Thursday 9 February 2012 Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will discuss with the Government of Bahrain the implementation of the recommendations of the Asylum Seekers Independent Commission of Inquiry, especially about Question the use of force during demonstrations and arrests, the treatment of persons in custody and the use of Asked by Baroness Goudie civilian courts in public order cases. [HL15268] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth unaccompanied children who applied for asylum Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Following publication between 2005 and 2010 and were granted discretionary of the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry leave to remain have since applied to extend their report on 23 November, the Secretary of State for leave to remain; and how many of these were Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable (1) granted an extension to their leave to remain, or friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) (2) refused an extension. [HL15137] spoke to the Crown Prince and has since been in regular contact with the Bahraini Foreign Minister to monitor government progress towards fully implementing The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): the commission’s recommendations. The UK Border Agency records this information but The Prime Minister, my right honourable friend the it is not held in a format compatible with National Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) had a useful meeting Statistics protocols. with the King of Bahrain on 12 December to discuss However, published statistics are available on a plans for implementation, during which he urged swift quarterly and annual basis which covers the number delivery and offered UK expertise to help Bahrain in of unaccompanied asylum seeking children granted this process, in particular to improve the judicial system. discretionary leave. Between 2005 and 2010 the number The King welcomed this. of grants was 10,501. Similar messages were delivered by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my honourable friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt) during his visit to Bahrain Automotive Industry in mid-December. Question Asked by Baroness Gardner of Parkes Banking Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Asked by Lord Myners the expansion plans announced by Jaguar Land Rover and other automotive companies, whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they consider that the necessary skills are available in the will use their shareholdings in Lloyds Banking Group United Kingdom to meet the technical requirements and Royal Bank of Scotland to encourage the of new engine plants. [HL15405] boards of those banks to publish, in full, the performance objectives set for their executive directors. [HL15142]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Sassoon): My right honourable friend the Secretary of Jaguar Land Rover’s decision to locate its advanced State for Business, Innovation and Skills has recently engine plant in the UK is a vote of confidence in the announced proposals aimed at improving the alignment UK’s world-leading auto sector and our talented workforce. of risk and reward in executive pay. These proposals It is also recognition of what the Government have include the expectation that in the future, remuneration done to support sustainable growth through record committees will have to explain why they have used investment in apprenticeships to improve our skills specific benchmarks and how they have taken into base and support for research and development. account employee earnings, including pay differentials, Jaguar Land Rover and other automotive companies when setting pay. are in the best position to understand what skills are The Government’s shareholdings in the Royal Bank required for its sector. To that end, we are reforming of Scotland (RBS) and Lloyds Banking Group (LBG) the skills system, with apprenticeships at its heart, so are managed on a commercial and arm’s-length basis that it is not led by government but by employers. We by UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI), a company are radically simplifying the system to enable colleges which is wholly owned by the Government. As shareholder and providers to respond to that need. This approach representative, UKFI will exercise shareholder powers in will secure a dynamic future for the automotive sector, accordance with good practice to protect the shareholder and contribute to this country’s return to economic interest and encourage full and informative disclosures growth. in compliance with all relevant reporting requirements. WA 85 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 86

Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): The Lord Chief Justice is the independent To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the headof thejudiciaryinEnglandandWales.Hisresponsibilities Department for Business, Innovation and Skills include maintaining appropriate arrangements for the receives the individual figures for gross and net welfare, training and guidance of the judiciary, within lending provided by each bank participating in the resources made available by the Lord Chancellor. Project Merlin to the Bank of England each quarter; and, if not, why not. [HL15310] There is no automatic arrangement by which judges The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department receive feedback on the efficacy of orders made in for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): private law proceedings once the proceedings have The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills concluded. A judge will normally only receive further receives monthly figures on gross and net lending from information if the case returns to court, or if one of the four UK banks who participated in the Merlin the parties subsequently contacts the court. agreement. When making, or varying, any order in private law Banks: Green Investment Bank proceedings under the Children Act 1989 the court is Questions required by law to make the welfare of the child its paramount consideration. Any order made will be Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon designed to meet this principle. The specific terms of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the order will reflect the welfare needs of the child they have made of the support that the Green informed by the information before the court as to his Investment Bank will provide to the Green Deal; or her family circumstances. In most private law cases, and when this support will start. [HL15378] the judge is scrutinising and formalising agreements reached between the parties themselves during the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department course of the proceedings, in some cases facilitated by for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): mediation. Such orders are made with the consent of My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the parties and relatively few cases proceed to a contested Business, Innovation and Skills Written Statement of final hearing. The ability of the parents to work together 12 December explained that support for the Green co-operatively in compliance with the terms of the Deal will be one of the priority sectors in the spending order will be a key factor in its efficacy. review period to 2015-16. This applies to both the Green Investment Bank (GIB) and UK Green Investment In respect of contact orders specifically, however, it (UKGI). We expect to commence discussions shortly is possible for a judge to order monitoring of a contact with potential providers of Green Deal finance. All order under the provisions of Section 11H of the investment decisions will be made against a double Children Act 1989. The court can ask a Cafcass or bottom line of green impact and financial return. CAFCASS Cymru officer to monitor compliance with Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark the contact order, and such other matters as the court To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they shall request. The officer will then report to the court expect to make a decision on the location of the on the matters concerned. Green Investment Bank. [HL15482] The court can also make a family assistance order Baroness Wilcox: On 12 December 2011, this requiring a Cafcass or CAFCASS Cymru officer to department published a document setting out the “advise, assist and befriend” a person involved in an criteria that will be taken into account in reaching a order in private law proceedings under Part II of the decision on the Green Investment Bank’s location. Children Act 1989. The order can last up to 12 months The document invited interested parties to self-assess and the officer can be required to report on such their location against those criteria and submit relevant matters as the court shall direct in connection with any information for consideration. The deadline for submission order under Section 8 of the Children Act 1989. of self-assessments was 30 January and we received submissions from 32 locations in the UK. All submissions are now being reviewed against the criteria set out in The Government agree in principle that there is the December guidance document. The decision will little feedback available to judges once a case leaves be announced later this month. court. In response to the final report of the Family Justice Review, the Government propose to carry out a small-scale pilot to test the benefits and assess the Children Act 1989 resource and time implications of case reviews. This is Question in line with the Munro review of child protection in England which recommends continuous learning, reflective Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno practice and increased co-operation among agencies To ask Her Majesty’s Government what feedback in the family justice system. The pilot will test a district judges (1) receive, and (2) may access, as to mechanism for providing structured feedback on the the efficacy of orders they make in private law long term outcomes of the decisions which are taken proceedings under the Children Act 1989. [HL15327] by the courts. WA 87 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 88

Children: Care Civil Service: Staff Question Question Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidelines United Kingdom Civil Service jobs are currently exist for NHS practitioners caring for a child whom located in (1) England, (2) Scotland, (3) Northern they believe is being denied a relationship with one Ireland, and (4) Wales. [HL15346] of its parents. [HL15330] Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. of Health (Earl Howe): There are no specific guidelines for National Health Service practitioners caring for a Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for child who they believe is being denied a relationship ONS, to Baroness Scott, dated February 2012. with one of its parents but health professionals should As Director General for the Office for National refer to Working Together to Safeguard Children Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary —a guide to inter-agency working to safeguard and Question asking how many United Kingdom Civil protect the welfare of children (DCSF, March 2010) Service jobs are currently located in (1) England, (2) www.workingtogetheronline.co.uk/. Scotland, (3) Northern Ireland, and (4) Wales (HL15346). The guidance requires any person, and this includes Estimates of regional Civil Service employment are health professionals, to refer children to social services published annually by the Office for National Statistics if they think a child is in need or is suffering, or is on the National Statistics website. The data available likely to suffer, significant harm. refer to the survey reference date of 31 March 2011. The following table provides the headcount of Home The local children’s social care team will determine Civil Servants in post for England, Scotland, Northern what action to take following the referral. Ireland and Wales as at 31 March 2011.

Regional distribution of Civil Service employment 12 Civil Service: Retirement All employees Headcount Question Total

Asked by Lord Laird 31 March 2011 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the England 404,043 average age of retirement from the Senior Civil Scotland 48,832 Service in the Department for Environment, Food Wales 33,299 and Rural Affairs; what that figure was for its Northern Ireland 4,355 predecessor departments; and what was the average All employees 490,529 pension paid to those retired senior civil servants in Source: Annual Civil Service Employment Survey each year since 2001. [HL15048] 1 Workplace postcode data are used to derive geographical information 2 Excludes employees of the Northern Ireland Civil Service The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor Crime: Domestic Violence of Holbeach): The table below shows the average age of Question retirement from the Senior Civil Service for financial years 2004-05 to 2010-11. Data from before 1 April Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton 2004 are not available. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many false claims of domestic violence have been recorded Financial Year Average Age in the past five years; and how they determine that 2004-05 55 a claim is false. [HL15356] 2005-06 56 2006-07 55 The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): 2007-08 58 The Home Office does not hold information on numbers 2008-09 60 of false claims of domestic violence. Investigating 2009-10 58 domestic violence is an operational matter for individual 2010-11 55 police forces.

Crime: Rioting It is not possible to provide figures for predecessor departments to Defra as these data are not available Question without incurring disproportionate cost. Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath Information about the average pension paid to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many retired senior civil servants is not held and could only victims of the rioting in the summer of 2011 are be obtained at disproportionate cost. waiting for compensation. [HL15044] WA 89 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 90

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): report Unsafe Return, published by Justice First in The Home Office does not make payments directly to November 2011, concerning the treatment of failed individuals or businesses—this is the responsibility of asylum seekers who are returned to the DRC. insurers and police authorities. Insurers have settled [HL15353] 80 per cent of claims made by householders and have fully paid out, or made interim payments, to almost The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): three-quarters of businesses affected by the riots. The UK Border Agency (UKBA) produces country of origin information (COI) reports on the 20 countries Over half of all valid claims have now been settled generating the most asylum claims in the UK. by police authorities. Outstanding claims include issues The Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) report where documents have not yet been produced. We are has not been updated since 2009 as it has not consistently striving to contact all claimants to ensure that they featured in the top 20 asylum intake countries. However, receive the help available to them. where there is a specific operational need a report may We are committed to reimbursing police authorities be produced on countries outside the top 20. The for the compensation they pay out, and it is in their UKBA’s COI service is currently updating its report interests to put in claims as swiftly as possible. Our key on DRC and this is scheduled for publication shortly. concern is to ensure that individuals and businesses The report will include information on the treatment receive the compensation to which they are entitled, of failed asylum seekers returned to the DRC. and the majority already have. As regards to the report Unsafe Return, relevant and reliable information received from published sources Criminal Law Act 1977 such as human rights organisations and non-government organisations regarding the treatment of failed asylum Question seekers on return would be incorporated in UKBA Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer COI material. We will include reference to the Unsafe Return report, among other sources, in the forthcoming To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the COI report. Home Office last issued guidance to the police with The revised DRC COI report will be made available regard to the enforcement of the rights of displaced on the UKBA website: http://www.ukba.homeoffice. residential occupiers or protected intending occupiers gov.uk/policyandlaw/guidance/coi/. as defined in Section 7 of the Criminal Law Act 1977. [HL15332] Education: Literacy Question The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Asked by Lord Empey McNally): The Home Office has not issued guidance To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the to the police for this area of the law. The enforcement current literacy level in the United Kingdom. of the rights of displaced residential occupiers or [HL15389] protected intending occupiers as defined in Section 7 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Criminal Law Act 1977 is an operational matter for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): for individual forces. The 2011 Skills for Life survey provides the most recent estimate of adult literacy (for people aged between Cyclists: Penalties 16 and 65 years old) in England, based on fieldwork conducted between May 2010 and February 2011. The Question headline findings of the survey were published in December 1 Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon 2011 , table 1 below provides the information about the current distribution of literacy skill levels among To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the this population, both in terms of proportions and penalty for the offence of riding a bicycle on the counts. pavement was last increased. [HL15352] Table 1: Literacy estimates among the adult population of England, 2011 (percentage and counts) Earl Attlee: Cycling on the footway became a fixed 2011 penalty offence in 1999. The fixed penalty was increased Adult to the current level of £30 in 2000. Population If pursued through the courts the current maximum Margins of estimate fine is £500. % error (million) Entry Level 1 or below 5.0 (4.3 – 5.8) 1.7 Entry Level 2 2.1 (1.7 – 2.6) 0.7 Democratic Republic of Congo Entry Level 3 7.8 (7.0 – 8.8) 2.7 Question Level 1 28.5 (27.0 – 29.9) 9.7 Asked by Lord Avebury Level 2 or above 56.6 (55.0 – 58.2) 19.3 Entry Level 3 and below 14.9 (14 – 16) 5.1 To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Country Level 1 and above 85.1 (84 – 86) 29.0 of Origin Information report on the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) has not been revised Sample size (unweighted)/ 5,824 (34.1 since July 2009; and whether they will publish an population size million) updated report in view of the allegations in the Source: 2011 Skills for Life survey: headline findings WA 91 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 92

The most recent available evidence on literacy levels and 144 Ethiopian journalists and opposition leaders; across the United Kingdom is more dated, from the and whether they will press for a joint European International Adult Literacy Survey 1994-982. This Union demarche on those cases. [HL15223] showed that 22 per cent of adults, aged 16-65 in the UK, had the equivalent of entry level 3 and below (ie The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth IALS level 1) prose literacy3 and 23 per cent had the Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Parliamentary same level of document literacy4. Under-Secretary of State, my honourable friend the 1 TNS-BMRB and AlphaPlus Consultancy Ltd. (November Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), 2011) 2011 Skills for Life survey: headline findings, Department raised the case of the Swedish journalists with the for Business, Innovation and Skills, BIS research paper 57. Ethiopian Foreign Minister and Deputy Prime Minister, Available online at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/further- Hailemariam Desalgn, at the African Union summit education-skills/docs/0-9/11-1367-2011-skills-for-life-survey- findings.pdf, accessed on 8/2/12. on 26 January. Our ambassador in Addis Ababa also 2 OECD (2000) Literacy in the Information Age: final report of discussed the case with Prime Minister Meles on 9 January the international adult literacy survey, Statistics Canada. and handed over a letter from the Prime Minister, 3 Defined as the knowledge and skills needed to understand my right honourable friend the Member for Witney and use information from texts including editorials, news stories, (Mr Cameron). The Secretary of State for Foreign and brochures and instruction manuals. Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend 4 Defined as the knowledge and skills required to locate and the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) and use information contained in various formats, including job the Secretary of State for International Development, applications, payroll forms, transportation schedules, maps, my right honourable friend the Member for Sutton tables and charts. Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) have raised related issues, including about Ethiopian counterterrorism legislation, Education: Literacy and Numeracy with Prime Minister Meles in contacts over the past Question three months. The European Union is currently developing Asked by Lord Empey a strategy on the way forward in this matter, with UK support. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what resources are specifically targeted at those in the community who lack basic levels of literacy and numeracy. Embryology [HL15390] Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Further Education and Skills is a devolved matter and, current funding level for (1) embryonic stem cell as such, 1 can only reply in respect of England. From research, and (2) adult stem cell research; what it the 2011-12 academic year, FE colleges and providers was in each of the past 10 years; what they anticipate have been given a single adult skills budget providing will be allocated for these purposes in each year of them with flexibility to respond to local learner and the spending review period; what discussions (a) the employer needs. Full Government subsidy is provided Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and for courses that support adults to gain basic literacy Skills, and (b) the Minister of State (Universities and numeracy qualifications. and Science) have had with (i) Department of Health Ministers, and (ii) HM Treasury Ministers about Egypt this issue since July 2011; and with what results. Question [HL15233] Asked by Lord Hylton The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): will make representations to the Government of Egypt Government spend in the categories requested, for about the recent detention of two Swedish journalists each year since 2002-03, is as follows:

**Generic/Cell type not Adult Embryonic Adult*/Embryonic defined Total

2002-03 £1,432,000 £1,941,000 £157,000 £59,000 £3,589,000 2003-04 £1,984,000 £2,321,000 £49,000 £167,000 £4,521,000 2004-05 £11,052,866 £9,605,000 £1,117,000 £381,000 £22,155,866 2005-06 £10,916,969 £13,366,031 £1,820,000 £512,000 £26,615,000 2006-07 £16,846,341 £19,399,539 £1,570,847 £1,127,000 £38,943,727 2007-08 £23,033,420 £17,918,300 £3,766,000 £937,000 £45,654,720 2008-09 £23,845,126 £20,779,088 £6,263,000 £1,254,000 £52,141,214 2009-10 £26,661,104 £19,948,258 £12,884,000 £840,000 £60,333,362

* A number of research projects involve both adult & embryonic Prior to 2002-03 comparable figures are not available. cell types ** Not all organisations have been able to provide a breakdown The allocations under the spending review do not in the categories requested. specify funding assigned to different areas of research. WA 93 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 94

However, regenerative medicine, including embryonic Energy: Green Deal and adult stem cell research, is a strategic research Question priority for the MRC, as outlined in Research Changes Lives: MRC Strategic Plan 2009-14. A planned Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon regenerative medicine spend in the region of £130 million was set out for the spending review period in the MRC To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate Delivery Plan 2011-12 to 2014-15. Both documents they have made of the number of homes that will are available from the MRC’s website at: www.mrc.ac.uk have energy efficiency measures installed through the Green Deal scheme in each of the first five years In line with the agenda set out in the Delivery Plan, of its operation. [HL15381] the MRC will continue to support all types of stem cell research and the level of future funding in embryonic and adult stem cell research will be dependent on the Baroness Stowell of Beeston: DECC’s current estimates quality and strategic relevance of any proposals received. for the uptake of measures under the Green Deal can The Cell Therapy Catapult, announced in the Strategy be found in the impact assessment, which was published for UK Life Sciences, will be a unique centre where alongside the Green Deal and ECO consultation academics, businesses and clinicians will work together document in November 2011. to focus on the commercial development of cutting-edge http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/ technologies in cell therapy. The centre will receive up consultations/green_deal/green_deal.aspx to £10 million per annum of core funding from the Weare currently considering responses to the consultation, Technology Strategy Board. which closed on 18 January, and Government will be Ministers from the Department for Business, publishing their formal response in due course. This Innovation and Skills and Department of Health speak will be accompanied by an updated impact assessment. regularly about public health issues, including matters concerning research. Energy: Solar Photovoltaics Question Energy: Costs Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon consideration they have given to how they can support the continued installation of solar photovoltaic To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions panels by community schemes. [HL15380] they have had with energy companies regarding the higher energy costs paid by those with pre-payment meters. [HL15382] Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Phase 2 of the feed-in tariffs (FITs) scheme review, published today, sets out several proposals for consultation in relation to community Baroness Stowell of Beeston: DECC Ministers and schemes, including seeking views on an appropriate officials meet with energy companies on a regular definition of “community”. basis to discuss market issues. Ofgem is responsible for regulating gas and electricity supply, including matters related to prepayment meters. EU: Fiscal Union New rules introduced by Ofgem in 2009 to prevent Question unfair price differentials, such as those between different payment methods, mean that prepayment meter customers Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch now pay, on average, £20 less than standard credit customers for their gas and electricity. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they formally oppose the use of the European Union’s institutions and facilities for any new treaty on fiscal union to which they are not a signatory. Energy: Feed-in Tariffs [HL15161] Question Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): The Government have a number of legal To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they concerns regarding the use of the EU institutions in expect to issue the Government’s full response to the inter-governmental treaty on stability, co-ordination the consultation on solar photovoltaic panel paid-in and governance in the economic and monetary union. tariffs which ended on 23 December 2011.[HL15379] However, the Government want the euro zone to do what is necessary to solve the crisis as long as it does not damage the UK’s national interest. The Government Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Today, we published are, therefore, reserving their position on use of the the full Government response to the consultation on EU institutions in the new agreement. It is clear that tariffs for solar photovoltaic installations which closed they cannot encroach on the competencies of the EU, on 23 December 2011. or justify measures that undermine the single market. WA 95 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 96

The Government will be watching developments closely Exports and Imports and will take action if the UK’s national interests are Question threatened. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government which (1) Acts EU: Israel Association Agreement of Parliament, and (2) statutory instruments, currently Question regulate (a) exports and re-exports, and (b) imports Asked by Lord Hylton and re-imports. [HL15075] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department human rights clauses of the European Union–Israel for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Association Agreement were discussed at the recent There are controls on the import and export of a wide European Union–Israel Economic Dialogue; and, range of goods. These controls are contained in a large if not, when they will next be raised. [HL15269] number of Acts and Statutory Instruments which are the responsibility of a number of departments. As a result, the information sought is not held centrally and The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth could only be obtained at disproportionate cost. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK is clear I am not aware of any Acts or Statutory Instruments that the human rights clauses of the European Union falling within the responsibility of the Department for (EU)-Israel Association Agreement are an important Business, Innovation and Skills that regulate re-imports part of the framework governing co-operation between or re-exports. However, as the noble Lord is aware, the the EU and Israel. assessment process for strategic export licence applications The issue of the human rights clauses of the European- takes full account of the risk of the goods being Israel Association Agreement was raised at the EU-Israel re-exported or diverted to undesirable end-uses or informal working group on human rights on 13 September end-users. It would be an offence for a UK exporter 2011. It will be discussed again at the next meeting of knowingly to make a false statement regarding the the group, currently scheduled for September 2012. ultimate destination of the goods when exporting The first meeting of the EU-Israel sub-committee them from the UK. on economic and financial matters took place in Jerusalem on 23 January 2012. The framework of the meeting is to conduct a regular economic dialogue, as foreseen by Extradition Act 2003 the EU-Israel Association Agreement, which allows Question an in-depth discussion of the economic situation in Asked by Lord Maginnis of Drumglass Israel and the EU, assessing the risks and opportunities for both economies. The issue of human rights was To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to not raised at this meeting as it was not directly pertinent the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 25 January to the technical economic matters being discussed. (WA 232), whether, when considering the review of However, the issue of human rights is likely to be United Kingdom extradition law, the Home Secretary raised at the next EU-Israel Association Committee will take into account evidence of the conditions in meeting which is planned for May 2012. The association United States prisons, such as those described recently committee reviews the progress of all sub-committees by extradited banker Gary Mulgrew. [HL15280] and working groups operating under the EU-Israel Association Agreement. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Further to the Written Answer given on 25 January, the Extradition Act 2003 provides for the requested European Single Market person’s human rights to be considered by the court Question during the extradition hearing. If the District Judge in the UK decides that a person’s extradition to another Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon jurisdiction would result in a breach of that person’s human rights, he must order the person’s discharge. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they That decision is subject to review on appeal to the will place in the Library of the House a list of the High Court. directives and regulations of the European Union which have a direct relevance to the operation of the single market. [HL15350] Firearms: Home Office Firearms Forms Working Group The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Asked by Lord Dear No. A full list of regulations and directives considered relevant to the operation of the single market would To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to run to several thousand and could only be achieved at the Written Answer by Lord Henley on 8 December disproportionate cost. The information is available (WA192), whether the Home Office Firearms Forms from the following European Commission webpage: Working Group met in January; and, if not, why a www.eur-lex.europa.eu/en/legis/latest/index.htm. meeting was not arranged. [HL15299] WA 97 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 98

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): Government: Ministerial Duties The Home Office Firearms Forms Working Group Question (HOFFWG) is scheduled to meet in February, which is the date all working group members could attend. Asked by Lord Avebury To ask Her Majesty’s Government what meetings and other ministerial duties the Parliamentary Under- Government Departments: Bonuses Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Question Affairs, Alistair Burt, undertook in Bahrain on 12 and 13 December 2011; and what contact he had Asked by Lord Laird before and during that visit with members of the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights. [HL15266] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, for each of the next three years for which figures are available and according to Civil Service band, how many The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth people are eligible to receive performance and special Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): During his visit to bonuses in the Scotland Office; how many people Bahrain the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State they estimate will receive each type of bonus; what for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my honourable they estimate will be the average payment for each friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Mr Burt) type of bonus; and what they estimate will be the met senior members of the Government, including the maximum payment for each type of bonus. Crown Prince and Prime Minister. [HL14937] Mr Burt also hosted a series of roundtable discussions with representatives from the opposition, business, media and civil society, including those concerned The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace with human rights. of Tankerness): Staff in the Scotland Office are on He made it clear to all groups that they should fully secondment, mainly from the Scottish Government or seize this moment for reconciliation and broader reform. the Ministry of Justice. Staff may be eligible for non- In addition, Mr Burt attended a reception for the consolidated performance payments in different ways. British Community and visited the UK maritime First, through end of year performance payments component and met officers serving in the Royal Navy under their parent bodies’ performance management and Royal Fleet Auxiliary. arrangements, and in the case of the Senior Civil Service, within a common framework set by the Cabinet Mr Burt did not meet any members from the Bahrain Office. Depending on these arrangements, and Centre for Human Rights before or during his visit. departmental pay remits, over each of the next three years, all staff may be eligible for end of year performance payments. However, it is not possible to provide an Government: Remuneration Contracts estimate of such costs as pay arrangements have not Question been settled for forward years. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Secondly, under Scotland Office reward and recognition arrangements, staff below SCS are eligible for non- To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether consolidated performance payments or small and Parliament has the power to cancel or amend the instantaneous awards, eg vouchers, in recognition of terms of remuneration contracts made by the special effort, achievement and commitment. Over the Government. [HL15308] past seven years such awards made by the Scotland Office have varied in value between £750 and £25. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Remuneration contracts It is not possible to estimate future spend on these are subject to Employment Law. The precise legal arrangements. status of terms and conditions is dependent on the contract of employment between the employer and the individual being appointed. Government Departments: Staff Question Immigration Asked by Lord Laird Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Asked by The Earl of Sandwich civil servants employed by the Home Office and each To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of its agencies were (1) prosecuted, and (2) convicted people were detained in United Kingdom immigration of a criminal offence, and how many were as a and removal centres on 1 January 2012; what was result (a) suspended, and (b) dismissed, from their the total number of those detained during 2011; post in each of the past five years, broken down by and how many of those detained during 2011 have age, sex and directorate. [HL15070] been removed and to which countries. [HL15295]

The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Home Office does not hold the information requested. The requested information is unavailable. WA 99 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 100

A figure for the number of people detained as at Appeal; and what estimate they have made of the 1 January 2012 could only be obtained at disproportionate costs which will be incurred by appealing to the cost. The equivalent figure for 31 December 2011 will Supreme Court. [HL15256] be published on 23 February 2012. Figures are published annually on 31 March, 30 June, 30 September. The number of people entering detention in 2011 Baroness Stowell of Beeston: We estimate that the and the number of people removed on leaving detention Government have incurred costs of approximately in 2011, by country of nationality, will be published £66,400. This includes the cost of approximately £58,000 on 23 February 2012. up to the point of judgment in the High Court and a Published figures on people in detention relate to further £8,400 to include the recent hearing in the those solely detained under Immigration Act powers Court of Appeal. in immigration removal centres, short-term holding If the Supreme Court agrees to hear our case then facilities and pre-departure accommodation and exclude we will incur more costs, but it is not possible to those recorded as entering police cells, prison service estimate this cost at this stage. If the Supreme Court establishments and short-term holding rooms at ports ultimately finds in our favour, we will expect to recover and airports (for less than 24 hours), those recorded as all or a substantial proportion of our costs. detained under both criminal and immigration powers We are doing this to protect consumers’ bills. The and their dependants. annual cost to consumers if we did not act could be The Home Office publishes statistics on detention, £100 million per year—more than 1,000 times our solely under Immigration Act powers on a quarterly legal costs to date. The cost of defending ourselves in and annual basis, within Immigration Statistics, which court pales in comparison to the £1.5 billion additional are available from the Library of the House and from lifetime cost if we do not act. the Home Office’s Science, Research and Statistics website at: http://homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/ research-statistics/. Khader Adnan Mohammad Musa 2011 figures will be available on 23 February 2012 Questions in Immigration Statistics October-December 2011. Asked by Lord Hylton Iran To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Question have received reports about the case of Mr Khader Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Adnan Mohammad Musa, who is on hunger strike To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their in Ramleh prison hospital, Israel; and whether they assessment of whether Iran is developing a nuclear will make representations to the Government of weapon, in the light of the comments by the United Israel about his access to independent medical advice, States Defense Secretary, Leon Panetta, on CBS his family and a fair trial. [HL15271] Face the Nation on 8 January. [HL15307] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): As the International the case of Mr Khader Adnan Mohammad Musa. On Atomic Energy Agency’s (IAEA) most recent report 31 January 2012 Mr Musa was transferred to Mayanei on the Iranian nuclear programme makes clear, Iran HaYeshuaMedical Centre in central Israel after 45 days has conducted activities relevant, and in some cases on hunger strike. The Israeli non-governmental specific, to the development of nuclear weapons. Much organisation, Physicians for Human Rights, has had of the evidence that the IAEA presents relates to access to Mr Musa to advise him on the impact of the activities prior to 2003; but the IAEA also presents hunger strike on his health. Israeli authorities assess significant evidence, from multiple sources, indicating his medical condition to be satisfactory and say that if that some of these activities have continued beyond necessary he will be given medical treatment. Other this point. Iran also continues to expand its stockpile Palestinian detainees have also started a hunger strike of near-20 per cent enriched uranium and to expand in solidarity with Mr Musa. its capability to produce this material far beyond that required for its declared intended civilian use, all in We have raised our concerns with the Israeli authorities violation of United Nations Security Council Resolutions. about ensuring that prisoners in detention have access These activities bring the prospect of an Iranian nuclear to independent medical advice, that family visitation weapon closer, and cause us grave concerns about the rights are upheld and that they have access to legal ultimate purpose of the Iranian nuclear programme. advice and are given a fair and open trial. Our officials in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem have been Justice: Legal Fees instructed to monitor the situation closely. Question Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Baroness Smith of Basildon To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate will make representations within the European Union they have made of the costs they have incurred by in support of representations by the Israeli organisation losing the Judicial Review on solar panel tariff Physicians for Human Rights regarding the case of payments, and losing the appeal in the Court of Mr Khader Adnan Mohammad Musa. [HL15272] WA 101 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 102

Lord Howell of Guildford: We are in regular discussion Police: Community Support Officers with the European Union regarding Palestinians held Question in administrative detention and co-ordinate our monitoring and lobbying on the ground with European Asked by Lord Condon Union (EU) partners in both Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Along with our colleagues in the EU we are monitoring police community support officers are employed in the case of Mr Khader Adnan Mohammad Musa and England and Wales. [HL15292] will continue to make representations to Israel regarding our concerns about the situation of Palestinians in Israeli detention. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The latest published police personnel statistics shows that there were 15,469 full-time equivalent police community support officers employed in the 43 English Middle East and North Africa and Welsh police forces on 30 September 2011. Question These statistics were published on 26 January 2012 in the Police Service Strength England and Wales, Asked by Lord Hylton 30 September 2011 statistical bulletin, available online To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk. Written Answer by Baroness Northover on 31 January (WA 320), what funds have been released during the past six months by the African Development Bank, Police: Overseas Assignments the World Bank and the International Financial Question Corporation to countries in the Middle East and North Africa in order to increase employment; and Asked by Lord Avebury what was the amount released to Tunisia during the past six months. [HL15321] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many British police officers are on assignment in Bahrain; and whether they will place in the Library of the House a report giving details of their activities, and Baroness Northover: Information on African the amounts and sources of their funding.[HL15404] Development Bank (AfDB), International Finance Corporation (IFC) and World Bank disbursements during the past six months to increase employment in The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) is currently There are currently no British police officers on assignment not available. Where information on aggregate in Bahrain. disbursements or commitments for calendar year 2011 is available, it is shown below. Although these figures cannot be disaggregated to provide an exact figure on spend to increase employment, a large share is expected Questions for Written and Oral Answer to contribute directly or indirectly to job creation. Question the World Bank disbursed US$ 1.56 billion to the Asked by Lord Myners MENA region during the period 1 July to 31 January 2011, of which US$ 510 million was for Tunisia; To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the IFC committed $1.314 billion to the MENA (1) oral, and (2) Written Questions, on matters for region during the period 1 January to 31 December which the Department for Business, Innovation 2011, of which $29.9 million was for Tunisia; and and Skills is responsible have been answered by (1) Baroness Wilcox, and (2) Lord Green of the AfDB disbursed $618 million for Tunisia during Hurstpierpoint, since Lord Green became a Member the period 1 January to 31 December 2011. of the House. [HL15139] More information on disbursements by country and sectors will be available in AfDB’s annual report which is expected to be published in May, and in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department World Bank and IFC annual reports which will be for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): published by October. My noble friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint was All three institutions have approved a number of appointed Minister of State for Trade and Investment new investments over the past 12 months to boost job on 11 January 2011. From that date to the end of creation in the MENA region. These include: i) World January 2012, Lord Green has answered 45 Written Bank and AfDB loans totalling $100 million to increase Questions and one oral Question relating to trade access to small and medium-sized enterprise (SME) promotion and the operations of UK Trade and Investment finance in Tunisia; ii) an IFC $200 million loan and (UKTI). $50 million equity investment in an Egyptian construction In my role as Parliamentary Secretary, I lead on all company; iii) a World Bank $250 million development other Business, Innovation and Skills issues in the policy loan to the Government of Jordan; and iv) an Lords, assisted by Baroness Verma on higher education AfDB ¤20 million investment in an SME equity fund matters. I have answered a total of 409 Written Questions for Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. and 39 oral Questions during the same period. WA 103 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 104

Questions for Written Answer To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data Questions about Witten Answers to parliamentary Questions is provided by the Cabinet Office to the Leader of Asked by Lord Laird the House of Lords; and whether they will place such information in the Library of the House. To ask the Leader of the House, further to his [HL15340] Written Answer on 21 November 2011 (WA 208) and with reference to the Written Answer by Baroness To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data Wilcox on 25 January 2012 (WA 248), what use is about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions made of the data provided by the Department for is provided by the Department of Health to the Business, Innovation and Skills to the Leader of the Leader of the House of Lords; and whether they House of Lords about Written Answers to will place such information in the Library of the parliamentary Questions; why information about House. [HL15365] the number of House of Lords Questions for Written To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data Answer that each government department answers about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions in each month is not held centrally; and whether is provided by the Department for Work and Pensions they will place the information provided by the to the Leader of the House of Lords; and whether Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in they will place such information in the Library of the Library of the House. [HL15246] the House. [HL15366]

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde): The Leader of the House of Lords requests information from government departments relating to The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord their performance in responding to Questions for Written Strathclyde): The office of the Leader of the House of Answers on a monthly basis. Information submitted Lords uses the data relating to Questions for Written by government departments in relation to their Answer submitted by government departments to monitor performance during 2011 will be placed in the Library each Department’s performance in answering QWAs of the House. within 10 working days. The overall volume of QWAs tabled to each department is not monitored centrally. Information supplied by departments in relation to Railways: Rail Cards their performance during 2011 will be placed in the Question Library of the House. Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the Integrated Transport Smartcard Organisation (ITSO) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data standard national rail card will be available; whether about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions they have chosen an operator for the card; and why is provided by the Department of Energy and Climate customers cannot use Oyster cards, which are ITSO Change to the Leader of the House of Lords; and compliant, for commuter journeys while the national whether they will place such information in the system is being developed. [HL15345] Library of the House. [HL15335] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data Earl Attlee: There are no current plans for a single, about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions centrally developed ITSO smart rail card. The is provided by the Home Office to the Leader of the Government strategy is to roll out ITSO-compliant House of Lords; and whether they will place such smart ticketing on rail incrementally through the information in the Library of the House. [HL15336] re-franchising process. To accelerate the roll-out, the Chancellor in the Autumn Statement has provided To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data extra funding of £45 million in respect of smart ticketing about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions on rail in the South East. Where franchises have is provided by the Department for Environment, already been let with an ITSO ticketing requirement Food and Rural Affairs to the Leader of the House the franchisee owns and manages their smart cards. of Lords; and whether they will place such information Oyster cards are not ITSO-compliant. However a in the Library of the House. [HL15337] project is currently under way to equip the London To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data Oyster estate with the capability to read and accept about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions ITSO products. is provided by the Ministry of Defence to the Leader of the House of Lords; and whether they will place such information in the Library of the Safeguarding Children House. [HL15338] Question Asked by Baroness Walmsley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what data about Written Answers to parliamentary Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is provided by the Department for Education to the has been made in implementing the recommendations Leader of the House of Lords; and whether they in Sir Roger Singleton’s report, Physical punishment, will place such information in the Library of the improving consistency and protection, published in House. [HL15339] March 2010. [HL15193] WA 105 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 106

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for or a higher PAN than previously, to consult on that Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government are number. Schools for which the local authority are the considering the recommendations made in Sir Roger’s admissions authority (community schools and voluntary report. controlled (VC) schools) can increase their PAN through discussions with the local authority. If the governing body of a community or VC school feel the local Schools: Academies authority has set a PAN that they disagree with, they Question can object to the schools adjudicator. Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough There is no requirement in legislation or in academy funding agreements for former maintained schools To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many converting to become academies to agree their admission academies are currently awaiting approval; and how arrangements or admission numbers with the Secretary many are expected to be approved by the end of the of State on conversion: they simply retain their previously current Parliament. [HL15276] determined admission arrangements and numbers. Nor are academies required to agree any subsequent changes, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for post-opening, with the Secretary of State. Instead, Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): So far 1,629 schools they are required by their funding agreements to comply have been approved to open as academies. There are with the provisions of the school admissions code. currently 232 schools which have applied to convert This allows academies to make changes to their admission awaiting approval. Further details are available on the arrangements and numbers following the same rules DfE website at http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/ as all other own admission authority schools must leadership/typesofschools/academies/a0069811/open- follow when setting and varying their admission academies-map-and-schools-submitting-applications. arrangements. This is a demand-driven programme that responds Consequently, the Secretary of State has neither to school applications to convert and therefore we do approved nor rejected any changes to admission numbers not estimate how many might have converted by the for schools that have converted to become academies. end of the current Parliament. Schools: Profit-making Schools: Admissions Question Questions Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough Asked by Lord Adonis To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether under To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the existing legislation an academy or free school can process under which a maintained school can arrange outsource all its management and teaching functions to increase its admissions number beyond the number to a for-profit company. [HL15279] agreed with its local authority. [HL15213] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for schools converting to academy status, the Secretary Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The existing legislative of State for Education may agree to increases in framework would allow any school, whether an academy, admissions numbers higher than those previously free school or maintained school to outsource the management of, and teaching at, that school to a third agreed with local authorities. [HL15214] party, which could include a for-profit company. Under To ask Her Majesty’s Government in respect of such arrangements, the academy trust or the governing how many schools converting to academy status the body of a maintained school remain legally responsible Secretary of State for Education has agreed to for the running of the school and manage the contract increase the admissions number beyond that previously accordingly. Academy trusts must be established on a agreed by the local authorities; and what were the non-profit-making basis and use all income and assets schools and admissions numbers concerned. for the charitable purpose of the trust. [HL15215] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Secretary of State for Education has rejected any Schools: Pupil Premium requests by schools converting to academy status to Question increase their admissions numbers; and what were Asked by Lord Bradley the details of the schools concerned. [HL15216] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for school children are eligible for the pupil premium in Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The School Admissions each parliamentary constituency in Greater Code, which came into force on 1 February, gives Manchester; and what proportion they represent. more freedom to schools to increase their published [HL15143] admission number (PAN) to respond to parental demand. Schools that are their own admission authority The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for (foundation schools, voluntary aided schools, academies Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The pupil premium and trust schools) are not required, if setting the same was introduced in April 2011 and allocations have so WA 107 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 108 far been made for the 2011-12 financial year only. Annex A provides this breakdown for each of the Pupil premium funding is provided in respect of pupils parliamentary constituencies in Greater Manchester, known to be eligible for free school meals (FSM), and the proportion of pupils they represent. children in care who have been continuously looked after for at least six months and children whose parents The total number of pupils eligible for the pupil are serving in the Armed Forces, known as service premium in Greater Manchester and all its parliamentary children. constituencies may be higher, but it is not possible to In Greater Manchester there were 81,650 pupils on identify the number of pupils in each parliamentary the January 2011 school censuses recorded as known constituency recorded as being in care or recorded in to be eligible for FSM or recorded as service children the alternative provision census as, in both cases, the who qualified for the pupil premium. This was returns are provided at local authority level rather approximately 22 per cent of pupils in Greater Manchester. than at establishment level.

State-Funded Primary, Secondary and Special Schools, and Pupil Referral Units (1)(2)(3)(4): Number of Pupils Eligible for the Pupil Premium on 2011-12 (9) *

By Parliamentary Constituency in Greater Manchester Total Pupil Premium Proportion of Pupils in each Parliamentary Total Pupils eligible for the constituency eligible for Number on roll (5) Pupil Premium (6) (7) (8) the Pupil Premium

England (8) (9) 6,765,030 1,260,270 18% Greater Manchester 363,205 81,650 22% Altrincham and Sale West 14,737 1,160 8% Ashton-under-Lyne 13,325 2,800 21% Blackley and Broughton 15,354 5,350 35% Bolton North East 13,057 2,590 20% Bolton South East 15,189 3,690 24% Bolton West 11,934 2,250 19% Bury North 13,404 1,890 14% Bury South 12,497 2,050 16% Cheadle 14,492 1,310 9% Denton and Reddish 11,800 2,180 18% Hazel Grove 9,322 1,240 13% Heywood and Middleton 13,348 3,220 24% Leigh 14,159 2,490 18% Makerfield 14,177 2,000 14% Manchester Central 12,420 5,750 46% Manchester, Gorton 14,648 5,190 35% Manchester, Withington 12,336 3,260 26% Oldham East and Saddleworth 15,538 3,050 20% Oldham West and Royton 17,817 5,060 28% Rochdale 17,023 4,690 28% Salford and Eccles 12,201 3,710 30% Stalybridge and Hyde 13,331 2,690 20% Stockport 8,690 1,870 21% Stretford and Urmston 13,470 2,410 18% Wigan 13,262 2,550 19% Worsley and Eccles South 13,568 3,360 25% Wythenshawe and Sale East 12,109 3,890 32%

Notes: main registrations only. In Pupil Referral Units, FTE pupils aged 4 (all registration types) and headcount of pupils aged 5 to 15 Total parliamentary constituency pupil numbers rounded to (sole or dual main registrations as well as pupils who are the nearest 10. registered with other providers and further education colleges). 1. Includes middle schools as deemed. 6. Full-time equivalent (FTE) number of pupils known to be 2. Includes primary academies. eligible for and claiming free school meals in year groups R-11, 3. Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. (where National Curriculum year groups do not apply pupils aged 4 to 15). For all those aged 5 and over includes sole or dual 4. Includes maintained special schools, excludes general main registrations only. In Pupil Referral Units, FTE pupils aged hospital schools and non-maintained special schools. 4 (all registration types) and headcount of pupils aged 5 to 15 5. Full-time equivalent (FTE) pupils in year groups R-11 (sole or dual main registrations as well as pupils who are (where National Curriculum year-groups do not apply pupils registered with other providers and further education colleges) aged 4 to 15). For all those aged 5 and over includes sole or dual known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals. WA 109 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 110

7. Full-time equivalent (FTE) number of pupils in State- The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Funded Primary, State-Funded Secondary and Maintained McNally): The information requested is not available. Special Schools recorded on roll as service children on the Although we hold data on the number of possession January 2011 school census in year groups R-11 (where National Curriculum year groups do not apply pupils aged 4 to 15). For all orders granted by the county courts in the London those aged 5 and over includes sole or dual main registrations area, these do not provide a reliable indicator of the only. number of evictions from squatted properties which followed a court order. 8. There may be discrepancies between the sum of constituent items and totals as shown.

9. It is not possible to determine the number of parliamentary constituency pupils recorded on the alternative provision census Statutory Instruments or recorded as looked-after children as they are both local authority returns, and not an establishment level return. Questions Therefore, this figure will be lower then the corresponding figure Asked by Lord Laird on the local authority table. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in each (*) The numbers are based on the location of the school and parliamentary Session since 2001, how many statutory not where the schools are funded. instruments laid by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and its predecessor departments were reprinted due to (1) defective drafting, and (2) other error; how much each reprinting cost; and South Sudan who paid for each reprinting. [HL15151] Question Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment The information requested by the noble Lord is not they have made of the humanitarian crisis in South held centrally within the Department for Business, Sudan’s Jonglei state; and what aid is being made Innovation and Skills (BIS). The Joint Committee on available to those displaced by the ethnic violence Statutory Instruments (JCSI) publish annual departmental there. [HL15165] returns which lists by department, the number of statutory instruments reported by them as being, in their opinion, defective. Copies of these reports are available in the Baroness Northover: Britain is playing a lead role in Library of the House. Where an order requires a providing emergency relief to Jonglei and other states reprint, the Stationery Office issues this free of charge in South Sudan. In December 2011, the Secretary of to all known recipients, with the actual costs being met State approved a two-year package of support for the by BIS Legal Directorates. International Committee of the Red Cross and the Common Humanitarian Fund (CHF) in South Sudan. UK support to the extended 2011 CHF and the new Asked by Lord Laird 2012 CHF will assist in providing emergency relief to To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in each Jonglei and other states over the coming months. parliamentary Session since 2001, how many statutory According to the latest information from the UN instruments laid by the Department for Environment, Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs, Food and Rural Affairs and its predecessor departments dated 30 January, 141,787 people have been registered were reprinted due to (1) defective drafting, and as affected by the latest conflict in Jonglei state, and a (2) other error; how much each reprinting cost; and further 95,889 have been reported as in need. Registration who paid for each reprinting. [HL15187] and reported numbers are being verified and assessments are ongoing. The international community, including the UK through its support to the CHF, is providing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department food and other emergency assistance to affected areas. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor 78,883 people have received food aid to date. of Holbeach): Since 1988, 94 correcting instruments have been made and issued free of charge to purchasers of the statutory instrument (SI). This covers SIs laid by Defra or its predecessor departments—where the Squatting policy responsibility remains with Defra. Defra is in the process of compiling a list of legislation made by Question Defra or its predecessor departments, with current Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer records suggesting that more than 2000 SIs in total were made over this period. Cost records are available To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to for 70 of the 94 replacement instruments and date the Written Answer by Lord McNally on 25 January from 1997. The total cost of these 70 was £17,537 and (WA 250–1), how many evictions from squatted met by the department. Information as to the reason properties have been carried out by the police or for SIs being reprinted is not held centrally and could bailiffs in the London metropolitan area in each of only be obtained at disproportionate cost, if at all, the last five years. [HL15331] given the timescales involved. WA 111 Written Answers[9 FEBRUARY 2012] Written Answers WA 112

Sudan Tunisia Question Question Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government what To ask Her Majesty’s Government what exchange humanitarian organisations are currently operating programmes exist between the United Kingdom in Abyei and what assessment they have made and Tunisia; and what plans they are aware of about whether current conditions would allow the within Tunisia for internal and external dialogue resumption of activity by aid organisations which designed to create national consensus. [HL15320] have withdrawn. [HL15231]

Baroness Northover: Humanitarian organisations The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth are currently providing relief assistance to approximately Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK is working 110,000 people who have been displaced from Abyei. hard to support the transition to democracy in Tunisia. The continued presence of unauthorised forces and Our bilateral efforts have focused on the Arab Partnership the risk of land mines continue to deter the return of programme which provides a wide range of UK-led those displaced by conflict and limit the activity of assistance, including support for visits of UK experts humanitarian organisations in Abyei itself. Several from Parliament and the BBC. The work of the British United Nation agencies have returned to Abyei town, Council in Tunisia builds links with Tunisian civil including UNICEF (the UN Children’s Fund), the society and young people in Tunisia. We also fund World Health Organisation, and the UN High scholarships for the best Tunisian students to study in Commission for Refugees. Most of the humanitarian the UK, through the Chevening Scholarship programme. international non-governmental organisations have been We welcome the commitment that the Tunisian operating out of Agok, across the Kiir River in South Government, Constituent Assembly and civil society Sudan, since 2008 and have not had a sustained presence have made to dialogue and to establishing a national in Abyei town. consensus on the way forward for the country.

Thursday 9 February 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 27 EU: Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council ...... 39 Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing ...... 27 Exports: Tasers ...... 39

Armed Forces: Pensions...... 29 Flooding and Coastal Erosion...... 40

Coastal Regeneration...... 29 House of Lords: Peers’ Car Park ...... 41

Correction to Lords Written Ministerial Statement ...... 30 Housing...... 42 Immigration...... 43 Draft National Policy Statement for Waste Water ...... 34 Justice: Reform ...... 50 Elected Mayors...... 34 Pensions...... 50 Electoral Registration ...... 35 Rural Payments Agency...... 53 EU: Competitiveness Council...... 38 UN: Rio+20 ...... 54

Thursday 9 February 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Asylum Seekers...... 83 Energy: Feed-in Tariffs ...... 93

Automotive Industry ...... 83 Energy: Green Deal ...... 94

Bahrain...... 84 Energy: Solar Photovoltaics...... 94

Banking ...... 84 EU: Fiscal Union...... 94

Banks: Green Investment Bank ...... 85 EU: Israel Association Agreement...... 95

Children Act 1989...... 85 European Single Market...... 95

Children: Care ...... 87 Exports and Imports...... 96

Civil Service: Retirement...... 87 Extradition Act 2003 ...... 96

Civil Service: Staff ...... 88 Firearms: Home Office Firearms Forms Working Group...... 96 Crime: Domestic Violence ...... 88 Government Departments: Bonuses ...... 97 Crime: Rioting...... 88 Government Departments: Staff...... 97 Criminal Law Act 1977...... 89 Government: Ministerial Duties ...... 98 Cyclists: Penalties ...... 89 Government: Remuneration Contracts...... 98 Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 89 Education: Literacy ...... 90 Immigration...... 98

Education: Literacy and Numeracy ...... 91 Iran...... 99

Egypt...... 91 Justice: Legal Fees ...... 99

Embryology ...... 92 Khader Adnan Mohammad Musa ...... 100

Energy: Costs...... 93 Middle East and North Africa...... 101 Col. No. Col. No. Police: Community Support Officers ...... 102 Schools: Admissions ...... 105

Police: Overseas Assignments ...... 102 Schools: Profit-making ...... 106 Schools: Pupil Premium...... 106 Questions for Written and Oral Answer...... 102 South Sudan ...... 109 Questions for Written Answer...... 103 Squatting ...... 109 Railways: Rail Cards...... 104 Statutory Instruments...... 110

Safeguarding Children ...... 104 Sudan...... 111

Schools: Academies ...... 105 Tunisia...... 112 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL14937] ...... 97 [HL15276]...... 105

[HL15044] ...... 88 [HL15279]...... 106

[HL15048] ...... 87 [HL15280] ...... 96

[HL15070] ...... 97 [HL15292]...... 102

[HL15075] ...... 96 [HL15295] ...... 98

[HL15137] ...... 83 [HL15299] ...... 96

[HL15139]...... 102 [HL15307] ...... 99

[HL15142] ...... 84 [HL15308] ...... 98

[HL15143]...... 106 [HL15310] ...... 85

[HL15151]...... 110 [HL15320]...... 112

[HL15161] ...... 94 [HL15321]...... 101

[HL15165]...... 109 [HL15327] ...... 85

[HL15187]...... 110 [HL15330] ...... 87

[HL15193]...... 104 [HL15331]...... 109

[HL15213]...... 105 [HL15332] ...... 89

[HL15214]...... 105 [HL15335]...... 103

[HL15215]...... 105 [HL15336]...... 103

[HL15216]...... 105 [HL15337]...... 103

[HL15223] ...... 92 [HL15338]...... 103

[HL15231]...... 111 [HL15339]...... 103

[HL15233] ...... 92 [HL15340]...... 104

[HL15246]...... 103 [HL15345]...... 104

[HL15256]...... 100 [HL15346] ...... 88

[HL15266] ...... 98 [HL15350] ...... 95

[HL15268] ...... 84 [HL15352] ...... 89

[HL15269] ...... 95 [HL15353] ...... 90

[HL15271]...... 100 [HL15356] ...... 88

[HL15272]...... 100 [HL15365]...... 104 Col. No. Col. No. [HL15366]...... 104 [HL15382] ...... 93

[HL15378] ...... 85 [HL15389] ...... 90 [HL15390] ...... 91 [HL15379] ...... 93 [HL15404]...... 102 [HL15380] ...... 94 [HL15405] ...... 83 [HL15381] ...... 94 [HL15482] ...... 85 Volume 735 Thursday No. 265 9 February 2012

CONTENTS

Thursday 9 February 2012 Questions House of Lords: Membership ...... 359 Charles Dickens: Bicentenary ...... 361 West Bank and Gaza ...... 364 Sahel...... 366 Arrangement of Business Announcement of Recess Dates...... 368 Local Digital Television Programme Services Order 2012 ...... 369 Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions to OFCOM) Order 2012 Motions to Approve...... 369 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (9th Day)...... 369 Energy: Feed-in Tariffs Statement...... 401 Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing and Suspicious Betting Question for Short Debate ...... 410 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (9th Day) (Continued) ...... 425 Written Statements...... WS 27 Written Answers...... WA 8 3