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House of Lords Official Report Vol. 735 Thursday No. 265 9 February 2012 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Questions House of Lords: Membership Charles Dickens: Bicentenary West Bank and Gaza Sahel Arrangement of Business Announcement of Recess Dates Local Digital Television Programme Services Order 2012 Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006 (Directions to OFCOM) Order 2012 Motions to Approve Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (9th Day) Energy: Feed-in Tariffs Statement Olympic Games 2012: Match Fixing and Suspicious Betting Question for Short Debate Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee (9th Day) (Continued) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201212/ldhansrd/index/120209.html PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £3·50 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £525 WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords £6 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440; Lords £255 Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2012, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 359 House of Lords: Membership[9 FEBRUARY 2012] House of Lords: Membership 360 in the way he mentioned. Does he agree that an House of Lords important question of constitutional principle is at stake here? Thursday, 9 February 2012. Lord Strathclyde: It is good to hear the right reverend 11 am Prelate speak in support of the Cross Benches of which I, too, am a great supporter. That is why I have Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chichester. consistently opposed the idea of a 100 per cent elected House. Indeed, I am also a supporter of the role of the House of Lords: Membership right reverend Prelates. They make a substantial Question contribution to the workings of the House. I do not think that the proportion of the Cross Benches has 11.06 am changed very much over the course of the past 10 years. We know of the tremendous contribution they make, Asked by Lord Dubs not just in votes in the House but also in making speeches, and I do not think it is planned to change To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they that proportion under the current system. But if a Bill have any plans to increase the current membership is put before Parliament, of course everything will be of the House of Lords, pending their current proposals up for grabs. for reform. Lord Kakkar: My Lords, whose comments better The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord reflect a mature and reasoned understanding of the Strathclyde): My Lords, in line with the coalition’s challenges attending reform of the House of Lords? programme for government, the Government are working Are they those of the president of the Liberal Democrats, towards the objective of creating a second Chamber who has likened your Lordships’ House to the tyrannical that reflects the share of the votes secured by the Syrian regime, or those of their leader, Nick Clegg, political parties at the last general election. who has described your Lordships as an “affront” to liberal democracy? Lord Dubs: Oh. [Laughter.] My Lords, on 24 January, the Leader of the House said: Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, it was the former “There is no plan to pack the House with at least 60 government Prime Minister, Tony Blair, who originally coined the supporters. It would look absurd and it would be absurd”.—[Official phrase “an affront to democracy” in relation to the Report, 24/1/12; col. 919.] House of Lords, so my right honourable friend is Given the Answer that he has just given to my Question, certainly not the first to say that. I am not responsible does he agree that it is doubtful whether he could find for what the president of the Liberal Democrats has a single Member of this House who thinks that increasing said, but perhaps he should wander up the corridor its number is a good idea, both on grounds of cost and from the House of Commons and see the real work of making this House look even more absurd than it that is done in this House, not least of all by my does with an increase in numbers? I ask the Government colleagues and friends who represent the Liberal Democrat to think again about this stupid idea. Party here. Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the noble Lord can Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, could my ask whatever he wants, but the Government’s position noble friend help me by explaining the logic of a is the one I outlined in my original Answer. It is up to Government’s policy which seeks to reduce the size of the Prime Minister, as it has been up to previous Prime the House of Commons in order to save public money Ministers, to decide whether he wishes to make more while greatly increasing the size of the unelected House Peers. It is widely known that a draft Bill to reform of Lords? Would I be cynical in thinking that this is an your Lordships’ House is before a Joint Committee attempt to discredit this House in order to justify their that may well turn into a Bill in the next Session of plans for abolition? Parliament. But in any case, since the general election a number of deaths have sadly been recorded among Lord Strathclyde: No, my Lords, my noble friend your Lordships, which means that there has been a would, unusually, be quite wrong in thinking that. The reduction from the high reached earlier on. Even if my plain facts are, first, that the House of Lords has, in its right honourable friend the Prime Minister were to relatively recent past, been considerably larger than it replace the number of Peers who have died, we would currently is and, secondly, that it is widely known and not be at the all-time high we saw recently. understood, which I think allows me to make this point one more time, that the House of Lords is The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, I cannot incredibly good value. The cost per Peer is considerably declare an interest as I speak from the Benches whose smaller than that for Members of the House of Commons number is fixed. However, I would like to ask the or indeed for Members of the European Parliament. Leader of the House to reflect upon what he said about the principle of the balance in relation to the Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, since the very important role played by the Cross Benches in election, the coalition Benches have swollen by 71 Peers this House. Their relative influence could be changed —who are very welcome, of course—and my own significantly if the House were to be increased in size Benches have been increased by 39. Does the rumoured 361 House of Lords: Membership[LORDS] Charles Dickens: Bicentenary 362 [BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] number of our museums such as the V&A—there are rise in the number of coalition Peers have anything to so many that I dare not recite them all in these few do with the fact that the Government have lost 33 votes minutes. in this Session of Parliament? Lord Young of Norwood Green: I thank the Minister Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, the fact that the for her reply. I must admit that I was hoping for a Government have lost 33 votes in this Session of more imaginative response from DCMS, but I know Parliament simply indicates that the House of Lords is these are hard times. I did not have great expectations. doing its work extremely well in suggesting changes to I suggest that a Dickens day in schools would not be a our well thought through legislation and asking the bad idea. I, too, pay tribute to the BBC, which has Government and the House of Commons to think given us great value for money recently in both TV again. The fact that the House of Commons does not and radio adaptations. There are also the Royal Mail’s always agree with the wisdom of your Lordships is its commemorative stamps. I was privileged to attend the constitutional right. As for balancing out the numbers, Abbey ceremony.
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