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DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM SHLÁINTE AGUS LEANAÍ JOINT COMMITTEE ON HEALTH AND CHILDREN Dé hAoine, 17 Bealtaine 2013 Friday, 17 May 2013 The Joint Committee met at 09.30 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Catherine Byrne, Sentor Ivana Bacik,* Deputy Ciara Conway, Senator Colm Burke, Deputy Regina Doherty, Senator John Crown, Deputy Robert Dowds, Senator Aideen Hayden,** Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick, Senator Imelda Henry, Deputy Seamus Healy, Senator Jim Walsh.* Deputy Billy Kelleher, Deputy Mattie McGrath, Deputy Sandra McLellan, Deputy Eamonn Maloney, Deputy Denis Naughten, Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor, Deputy James Reilly (Minister for Health), Deputy Robert Troy, * In the absence of Senators John Gilroy and Marc MacSharry, respectively. ** In the absence of Senator Ivana Bacik, for part of meeting. 1 HEADS OF PROTECTION OF LIFE DURING PREGNANCY BILL 2013: PUBLIC HEARINGS In attendance: Deputies Gerry Adams, Eric Byrne, Michael Conaghan, Joe Costello, Mi- chael Creed, Bernard J. Durkan, Frank Feighan, Terence Flanagan, Dominic Hannigan, Simon Harris, Kevin Humphreys, Derek Keating, Michael Lowry, Finian McGrath, Joe McHugh, Pe- ter Mathews, Seán Ó Fearghaíl, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, Joe O’Reilly, John Paul Phelan, Bren- dan Ryan, Arthur Spring, Billy Timmins, Peadar Tóibín and Liam Twomey, and Senators Paul Bradford, Martin Conway, Rónán Mullen, Catherine Noone, David Norris, Labhrás Ó Murchú and Jillian van Turnhout. DEPUTY JERRY BUTTIMER IN THE CHAIR. Heads of Protection of Life during Pregnancy Bill 2013: Public Hearings Policy - Overview of Heads of Bill Chairman: I welcome everyone to this morning’s session. Is it agreed that we begin in public session? Agreed. I remind members of the committee, witnesses and those in the Gal- lery, be they members of the media or members of the public, to ensure their mobile telephones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equip- ment even when they are on silent mode. It is particularly unfair to members of staff who have to wear headphones. This is the first of the sessional meetings of the Joint Committee on Health and Children dealing with the heads of the protection of life during pregnancy bill. The fundamental role of the Oireachtas is to enact legislation and in doing so it must act within the parameters set down by the people in the Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann. The Constitution is a living, dynamic document which is applied by the courts and ultimately interpreted by the Supreme Court. It is within this framework that the Government and the Oireachtas must act. Both are constrained by its provisions and neither can go beyond what is constitutionally prescribed. In this context, the Government has asked the committee to discuss and analyse the Bill. It has referred the heads of the Bill for our consideration and scrutiny. I thank committee members and those who have joined us for the duration of the meetings for their deliberations in advance. I wish in particular to thank members of the committee from all parties and the Independents for their co-operation with me and the clerk in the composition of the hearings. Our approach and the approach of the Government is that we will have analysis of the heads of the Bill over the next three days. I hope we will do so in a manner that is calm, tolerant and respectful of each viewpoint expressed by Members of the Houses of the Oireach- tas, committee members and witnesses. I also hope that similar to other hearings we held on other legislative proposals that our deliberations will be constructive and will have a positive role to play in assisting the Government in the formulation of legislation. As part of our hearings it is important that we gather information and that we listen to and engage with the views of witnesses who have voluntarily given of their time to come before the committee to assist with the scrutiny of legislation. I know that I speak for all of us on the 2 JOINT COMMITTEE ON Health AND CHILDREN committee when I say that I hope we will continue in the same vein and approach we took in the January hearings when the contributions were positive, helpful and courteous. Given that we are discussing a very sensitive matter with diverse viewpoints, it is incumbent on all of us to be respectful of all of the views expressed within this Chamber. I remind members that we are in the Chamber of Seanad Éireann and as a consequence there is a responsibility on all of us to uphold the dignity of the Houses of the Oireachtas. This morning we will hear from the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, the chief medical officer, Dr. Tony Holohan, and we are also joined by Mr. Ambrose McLoughlin, the Secretary General of the Department of Health and Ms Geraldine Luddy. I thank them for their presence this morning. Over the course of the day I hope that our hearings will be positive, constructive and that all members of the committee and of the Oireachtas will engage in the analysis of the heads of the Bill in a dignified manner. Each member will have three minutes for questions to the witnesses and the Chair will be impartial on adjudicating on the time allo- cated. I ask each member to comply with the time constraints. I do not wish to be in any way disrespectful to members but the ruling on time will be strict. Before we commence, I remind members and witnesses that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter to only qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of the proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that where possible they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice or ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not criticise, comment on or make charges against either a person or persons outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I call on the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, to make his opening remarks. Minister for Health (Deputy James Reilly): Thank you, Chairman and members of the committee. I am pleased to be present today to open the hearings on the general scheme of the protection of life during pregnancy Bill. I look forward to the presentations of the invited guests. I am confident the hearings will provide very useful input as we come to finalise draft- ing of the terms of the Bill. I was struck by the balanced and respectful approach taken by all during the previous three days of hearings held by the committee in January, and I echo the Chairman’s hope that the present hearings will be as productive. As all are aware, on 30 April the Government approved the drafting of the protection of life during pregnancy Bill 2013, subject to any technical amendments that may be deemed necessary following consultation with the Attorney General, and the publication of the general scheme of the Bill. The general scheme aims to give effect to the Government’s decision in December 2012 to legislate in this area within the parameters of Article 40.3.3° of the Constitu- tion, as interpreted by the Supreme Court in the X case, in order to implement the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights in the A, B and C v. Ireland case. Before I proceed it is worth reminding ourselves of the findings of the judgment. Three ap- plicants, A, B and C, all of whom had crisis pregnancies, brought proceedings against Ireland before the European Court of Human Rights claiming violations of Articles 2, 3, 8, 14 and 13 of the European Convention on Human Rights. In its judgment delivered on 16 December 2010 3 HEADS OF PROTECTION OF LIFE DURING PREGNANCY BILL 2013: PUBLIC HEARINGS the Grand Chamber determined that there had been no violation of the convention in relation to the first and second applicants, Ms A and Ms B. The Grand Chamber determined that there had been a violation of Article 8 of the Convention in relation to applicant, Ms C. The court found that Ireland had failed to respect the Ms C’s private life contrary to Article 8 of the convention, as there was no accessible and effective procedure to enable her to establish whether she quali- fied for a lawful termination of pregnancy in accordance with Irish law. The aim of the general scheme is to provide such a procedure. However, it is worth noting again that the issues at stake here are extremely complex and engage with fundamental rights. I will now go through the general scheme head by head. I do not wish to pre-empt the com- mittee’s discussion but I am mindful that there might be issues still to be dealt with and my De- partment has already identified some provisions that might need to be revisited from a technical perspective. Furthermore, some of the participants in the hearings might also have identified additional technical issues that might need examination. I look forward to any suggestions that will lead to the improvement of the operation of the legislation.