“West End Blues” 164 Vandermark Ken Louis Armstrong— November 28, 2004 ONE REASON TO LIVE: TO LIVE: REASON ONE DATE: GUEST: I t h h r b i b o f t f c b t l l T W o o m o o h h u e t h n e o y e o h o o ’ r

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165 Territory Band, and the Peter Brotzmann Chicago Tentet. and and promoter. He works a with of variety improvising ensembles including the Vandermark Five, FME, the 166 One Reason To Live In 1999, Ken was the only the Prize. MacArthur musician, and the young- musician, Julius Nil: Julius Not something on the outskirts of jazz that plays with the definition. thing that you would have to call jazz. that it is firmly and undeniably some- One thing that surprised me about it is me a little bit, knowing what you do. do. you what knowing bit, little a me est ever, to be awarded This choice This did choice surprise Ken Vandermark is a saxophonist, clarinetist, composer, organizer JN: JN: JN: thing more like that? thing that pushes on the edges and the boundaries of the idea of jazz. is very central to everything that has has that everything to central very is music Armstrong’s that Ithink that is KV: KV: Vandermark: Ken one of the foundations of the music. Well there’s a couple of reasons, one Yeah, I think so. But But you’re known more for some- So I was curious why not some- not why curious was I So Yes, defi it’s nitely 1970 was either overlooked or scoffed scoffed or overlooked either was 1970 It’s basically a very conventional per- conventional very a basically It’s American improviser. I think that this this that think I improviser. American American point of point view American and really fails JN: JN: here in England, because I don’t know Marsalis was talking about this particu- that that I was very unhappy with this docu- was recorded in 1928, so we are talking in and, music the organize they which the mechanisms the group puts in place what I normally work on. But I think that think, from a superficial standpoint,I the Aesthetically music. own my in tant for impor- that me become things have the tonal harmony approach to jazz, let’s to after examine anything the mid-60s, who who comes from a very different set of while, for myself anyway, to examine the a a long time ago. And another reason is at. And in one of the episodes, Wyntonat. And in one of the episodes, mentary mentary series that Ken Burns did, and piece the think I music. the of nings begin- very the at examined or place music sounds quite a bit different from the of many up sets piece particular many structural elements; that has be- has that elements; structural many much time devoted to any music outside piece piece from the perspective of someone in one portion of the program…. in any serious in way.any serious There really wasn’t if it’s aired over here. lar piece and I thought it would be worth- back back and see that these things were in KV: such a short period of time, deal with so spective on the history of jazz from an from of jazz history on the spective say, so everything that’s happened since on. I think it is kind of interesting to look come important in the music that I work and piece the way inon this particular come come after it, especially, I guess, as an Oh, okay, well, you are all very lucky. You might need to fi to in, need people might ll You Jazz and to show that this piece has a lot To Live.” I was thinking it was a really JN: JN: JN: Burns documentary—I wrote “this is is “this wrote documentary—I Burns to “legitimize” jazz. large jazz group. It reeks of an attempt have easily chosen as his One Reason Duke Duke Ellington, Thelonious Monk…and taking a look at the music from a less less a from music the at look a taking with the jazz continuum, so he’s kind of that Louis Armstrong wasn’t connected think anybody out there would suggest to to say to me and, I think, to the kind of that music, without question, is sig- is question, without music, that a safe bet in that sense. But it’s worth worth it’s But sense. that in bet safe a don’t I perspective. of sort classic a mythological standpoint. part. I had to. musics musics I work with, even though it’s as- nifi but I think important also and cant it belongs to a different time period period time different a to belongs it Center, the home of classical music music classical of home the Center, in in New York City, as the home of this Lincoln up set to problematic as me might have chosen the same track. lot of the music they do is repertory: repertory: is do they music the of lot KV: KV: KV: sociated with, as you mentioned initially, systems of working than Lincoln Center out knowing anything about the Ken the about anything knowing out strange idea that you and Marsalis Marsalis and you that idea strange something that Wynton Marsalis could I actually wrote in my notes—with- Yeah, it was a bit purposeful on my I’m glad to hear that. It strikes strikes It that. hear to glad I’m Yeah, I would agree with that. A that. with agree would I Yeah,

167 Ken Vandermark 168 One Reason To Live I think that there seems to be a lot of of lot a be to seems there that Ithink J there there seems to be this effort to legiti- tribution to the arts of the world and States as a legitimized art pursuit for for pursuit art legitimized a as States line that jazz is America’s great con- great America’s is jazz that line Mozart and have it mean the same thing tion an art form, but I don’t think it works mistake. I jazz a huge that that’s think were represented in the series quite a quite series the in represented were jazz continuum, as something that can as something jazz continuum, and I don’t think you can resurrect that as the savior of the music. I mean there at Lincoln Center—to try to couch the the couch to try Center—to Lincoln at at all in the same way that composed composed that way same the in all at ques- without is music improvised and and Marsalis were consultants and and consultants were Marsalis and posed posed music in the world classical and com- unlike totally is perspective, my from jazz, in music Improvised music. real effort on their part, for maybe po- maybe for part, their on effort real mentary about the music. It raises a lot people people with a lot of money. And I think perform Duke Ellington like you perform music does. And the idea that you could idea that this was supposedly a docu- a supposedly was this that idea is a lot of confl ict of interest about the in in that series that both Stanley Crouch is completely absurd, in my opinion. mize it and maybe commodify it too, too, it commodify maybe and it mize bit. And Marsalis was sort of presented KV: step in for classical music in the United of issues and I think there has been a been has there and I think issues of documentaries. effort by the people—the powers that be so they can package it…in Ken Burns N :

I agree. YouI agree. tag- this hear always I think it is a little bit questionable I’m sure there are a lot of connections a of connections are lot there sure I’m I think are that his probably intentions I mean Marsalis is really the first person I would think that if you had a real con- And that’s connected to the politics of politics the to connected that’s And JN: this track that made you choose it? little bit, can you tell us what it is about was true or not is open to a lot of debate, there as well—before that, it was about who was looking backwards. Until the the Until backwards. looking was who significant a as heralded been that’s ways new, but different—is very strange. way the way. goes that art I that think tionable because I don’t think art works way it has been done is extremely ques- to save jazz from obscurity to and from save itjazz from obscurity talked to Wynton Marsalis directly he he directly Marsalis Wynton to talked to try and defi ne what jazz is. I think think I is. defijazz and what try ne to always looking forward. Whether that that Whether forward. looking always power and money. make the argument for your funding re- to easier bit little a becomes it music the define can you if Because music. part of the history, as far as I am aware, music that has always been about look- he did not feel sincere about the efforts very sincere. But very sincere. I have to say that the versation, I would be very surprised if if surprised very be Iwould versation, ing some place different—maybe not al- it needs to go and to set up a system of in the politics in the United States—and imagine. I have never talked to him. But is very sincere about his ideas, I would it gets back to the whole perspective perspective whole the to back gets it litical reasons connected to the music, music, the to connected reasons litical 80s neo-conservatism in the music and but this is a very strange time, Itime, think. strange very a is this but being lost in the United States as a real systems that are and systems on based politics support support that is based on the past, for a quest. And then it gets into a bunch of a bunch into it gets then And quest. contribution to culture internationally. internationally. culture to contribution of legitimizing jazz. I think that if you you if that Ithink jazz. legitimizing of So can you walk us through this a I knew it fairly well beforehand, I was beforehand, well fairly it Iknew rsrn’ itouto de.I a In does. introduction Armstrong’s fi in comes that groove that chorus, rst Louis Armstrong’s brilliance as an im- an as brilliance Armstrong’s Louis the discussion, a lot of ground work is work ground of lot a discussion, the the pulse actually—and then his pick-up when Armstrong and the clarinet, which fi the in chorus, rst beginning very the on focus to like that I would thing the which is mind completely But blowing. trumpet, the on cadenza opening the ally struck by and one thing that is really happen in that line—the cadenza speeds proviser and a lot has been made about how much was happening. One thing about I’m re- actually, stunned pretty piece, piece, which is the soul of the piece, is is played by Jimmy Strong, when they they when Strong, Jimmy by played is From works. group the that way the is laid laid down on this one piece. And going utes utes long, but as I mentioned earlier in up up and slows down and kind of sets up back and reviewing it, even though though even it, reviewing and back KV: sense, the rhythmic modulations that that modulations rhythmic the sense, than more piece the for tone the sets sets the tempo. But the mood of the the of mood the But tempo. the sets come in stating the theme and the the and theme the stating in come ensemble. A lot has been made about about made been has lot A ensemble. enjoy in my own work, is the idea of the connected to what I look for and tend to It’s a little bit more than three min- And it goes to a very surprising place, in JN: familiar. These conventions didn’t really then it drops into an easy, lilting…. time. I the mean, at I was hear echoesprobably it of think this I in than all kind of opening trumpet cadenza and and arrangements band big of kinds this beautiful opening by Armstrong and taken for granted at this point. What you have we conventions the of lot a think I and everything inventing were they the four-beat holds that the trombone trombone the that holds four-beat the which is set up by the ensemble and also the realization of improvised music, even tion of how important the ensemble is to what they did in the arrangement and I popular song arrangements, like Frank and banjo, it really is a bit of a surprise. almost relaxed mood, even though it is a this there’s suddenly because a sense, are mentioning is really worth pointing ment. The final chorus is one of the most many things so quickly that they’re just now with these cadenzas and with these done being was stuff this when mean plays. For me that’s one of the most most the of one that’s me For plays. really stated by the quarter-note groove it’s almost like, well where does it go? go? it does where well like, almost it’s incredible things I have heard in impro- if they are using compositional arrange- KV: KV: Sinatra songs where you hear that that hear you where songs Sinatra steady quarter-note played on the piano striking things about the piece. You have exist at this point. They were inventing so different things that happen are just so guess that’s my point, that it’s an indica- upon improve Youcouldn’t composed. out. I mean it is a classic piece, it sounds Although it is less surprising now Yeah, that’s a really good point. I point. good really a that’s Yeah,

169 Ken Vandermark 170 One Reason To Live There isn’t a divergence and confusion confusion and Therea divergence isn’t way. It’s strange, they don’t even get get even don’t they way. strange, It’s JN: JN: Louis definitely comes to the fore and through through one full statement before he tary, definitely, being Armstrong in the what I think is a closed cymbal…. this sort of chopped-up rhythmic feel on be- clunky say wouldn’t of…I kind this the first chorus sets up the groove, the and also the pulse continuing with the with continuing pulse the and also sustains, these piano, on the a tremolo happening. happening. a like It’s parallel commen- has this chopped-up feel and then with vised music, for a number of reasons. But is is a solo trombone where the rhythmic in unison and then they veer off and off veer they then and in unison lead and the clarinet supporting and kind line with the trumpet and the clarinet clarinet the and trumpet the with line banjo, you’ve got three parallel sensibili- KV: KV: KV: sense that they are communicating. communicating. are they that sense sensibility completely changes: you have definitely be milk bottles. But as I said it cause it has a negative connotation, but chorus—essentially the second chorus chorus second the chorus—essentially comes interesting because on the third of commentating on that lead, which be- coloring it and supporting it. character of the piece and the melodic starts moving off a bit. a in theme the on elaborating starts I read it was milk bottles. At the very beginning they start start they beginning very the At Right, and yet you have the total total the have you yet and Right, Milk bottles? Okay, well it could could it well Okay, bottles? Milk J folds folds in a completely linear way, which feel through the first two choruses choruses two first the through feel But the only time the theme is really stat- ways ways dealing with a line in some sense. al- are you so time, chronological with the fl ow though, because the continu- the fl the because though, ow disrupt doesn’t It chorus. previous the ties of rhythm and they are all radically time that there is a dialogue in an im- an in dialogue a is there that time theme in the fi the of rst chorus, the trombone statement the after trombone the beginning, the at Armstrong with am interested in. again is connected to a lot of the work I away from a distinct unison theme—is theme—is unison distinct a from away and the third chorus. The piece basi- piece The chorus. third the and of ation the kind banjo this of sustains and then later on, an unaccompanied unaccompanied an on, later then and returned to. The only thing that remains ments are really staggering, and it un- it and staggering, really are ments have been composed and arranged—is arranged—is and composed been have could actually sense—which provised primarily before it goes into the ending the then and Hines, Earl by solo piano voice, voice, which to me, is really a recapitu- in in the fi rst chorus. After that, it’s never ity ity and combinations of this very small lation of the way that Armstrong and the last last chorus which features the trumpet because it’s not trumpet, is a shift in the between the clarinet and Armstrong’s Armstrong’s and clarinet the between KV: KV: sort sort of consistent is the chord changes sound, in the timbres, in the sensibil- the in timbres, the in sound, solo supported by the rhythm section, section, rhythm the by supported solo group. group. The and arrange- orchestrations ed—and as you mention, it veers quickly clarinet clarinet work in the fi rst chorus, which, different to what in had different just happened cadenza. It’s interesting that the only only the that interesting It’s cadenza. cally focuses on soloists: the cadenza cadenza the soloists: on focuses cally N :

What do you mean by linear? Well, with music you are dealing dealing are you music with Well, It unfolds like a narrative and nothing nothing and narrative a like unfolds It It’s just one system after another, that after system one just It’s yet when you break it apart or when when or apart it break you when yet So, basically, from the beginning of the Even now it’s common in quite a lot of a lot quite in common it’s now Even tion, tion, and the theme doesn’t come back. the very end, it is completely strange strange completely is it end, very the to the very end with this kind of strange the piece that happens a second time. time. second a happens that piece the which is a very, very, very functional way jazz, where you have a theme, a series a series a theme, have you where jazz, and avant-garde thing even now—you now—you even thing avant-garde and after an improvisational system of solos mental combination, timbral combina- timbral combination, mental piece with the unaccompanied trumpet have a linear narrative. It’s not a cy- a not It’s narrative. linear a have makes complete musical sense. And And sense. musical complete makes is repeated. There is repeated. is a never in section in the case of Ornette Coleman, a return like that, which is also radical, Ithink. radical, also is which that, like bals, the high-hat or the milk bottles at every single chorus is a shift in instru- in shift a is chorus single every of the blues, the 12-bar form. Otherwise chopped rhythm—whether it’s the cym- rhythm—whether chopped changes underneath that theme, or even chord on based maybe statements, of common. very was which form, clical quite clear and rounded off. But this isn’t erything up in a way that makes things music. of ev- kind sews It this doing of or whatever, coming back to that theme, And then the melodic statement, the the statement, melodic the then And you look at each, it’s kind of surpris- of kind it’s each, at look you Solo statements, ensemble statements, these things in the way that they do. And that opens up and closes again. And that with starts thing this that way the to the beginning of the piece in a sense. sense. a in piece the of beginning the with the sustain of the trumpet and the and then at the very end they become become they end very the at then and response, and call forth, and back a as again is interesting because it starts off after this clarinet-vocal dialogue, which apart. So it’s like there is an envelope envelope an is there like it’s So apart. split they then and unison almost an not. It goes to this unaccompanied piano repeats like a record stuck in one place. ing how they made the decisions ing to how they made dothe decisions ing thing about the piece—and it still still it piece—and the about thing ing is four bars long. It’s just staggering how last chorus. In the last chorus it starts it starts chorus. chorus last In the unison, which is a nice refl a is nice which unison, back ection back on the unaccompanied trumpet at bone playing this four beat hold that that hold beat four this playing bone trom- the and piano banjo, the of bars solo by Hines, which is a nice reflection sounds completely contemporary—is the solos. And then to me the most stagger- supporting statements underneath lead could be the end of the piece, but no it’s clarinet and the repetition for fours fours for repetition the and clarinet change change from the static moment, which

171 Ken Vandermark 172 One Reason To Live I have ever heard. I And okay,then, think. amazing. that’s I say this from my own ignorance real- ignorance own my Ifrom this say And what do they do? They freeze it. And And And this is completely counterintuitive. JN: But then Armstrong does this incred- this does Armstrong then But the tension built on that frozen four bars the motion towards Armstrong’s solo. solo. Armstrong’s towards motion the to support, the support steps up to make the ensemble coming out of the open- the of out coming ensemble the this period and would say “this is really the components. I think it’s really—and terms of the power of the elements and in is you hear a that twenty than piece the descending piano and the retard- the and piano descending the places. and then Armstrong is going to come in. and then this utterly bizarre chop on the with starts piece the of character and powerful it is to me. It’s just four bars bars four just me. to It’s is it powerful have frozen that. It’s a remarkable thing, minutes long, in terms of the variety, in ple couldn’t ple really couldn’t play, they were fum- is really one of the most amazing things ing cadenza by Armstrong. It’s like they ing motion of these holds by the band band the by holds these of motion ing ible playing, and it is just four bars or or bars four just is it and playing, ible Okay, it’s the last chorus and you expect, long, which is like the accompaniment accompaniment the is like which long, ly—for ly—for so long I would hear music form happening music more is there lation, KV: KV: second line or,second of in lead the hierarchy square, this is stiff, you know, these peo- so and then it stops and then there is is there then and stops it then and so okay, there’s this beautiful solo by Hines or the harmonic basis, so it’s like the the like it’s so basis, harmonic the or drums. In the last chorus, even in iso- in even chorus, last the In drums. ground and the background switch switch background the and ground It struck me as being like the fore- Exactly. And that whole feeling feeling whole that And Exactly. Things are happening so quickly, even a I mean it’s art. When I hear this I can not I should be doing next or how it relates. JN: JN: fore and going back to it and pulling pulling and it to back going and fore understanding understanding of why you reacted to urally and then coming to some sort of they are doing in this piece inform many terial. And when you are improvising, at are doing now. an art piece. I think that the things that ally imagine people dancing to this thing. always have time to be considering what really. So yeah, I believe in intuition, very,many decisions to make to consider too are there slowly, moves themthat piece posing music and when I am performing perspective completely. I mean the con- very radical piece of music. You can’t re- very firmly. it’s really about a gut reaction to the ma- it and that strikes me as a good way to least least the way that I approach it, I don’t bling around.” Andaround.” bling this gives lie to that KV: KV: see see it as in entertainment any way. It’s scious choices that they made in a very, other other people that I work with, what we that things Ithe of now, doing am and do your analysis of music rather than out the things that you reacted to nat- starting with the ideas. be- song this heard having of sense Yeah, I know that when com- I when am Yeah,that Iknow So we were talking about your your about talking were we So A lot of people don’t like the term “jazz” your message, it seems to be about about be to seems it message, your JN: JN: ferent musicians, so they may not have York New in was he years—when for jazz, versus Wynton Marsalis’s classic that Louis Armstrong invented soloing a make to show,trying the were you talking about at the very beginning of Roach all the time and with these dif- these with and time the all Roach tions, the achievements that have hap- have that achievements the tions, with rare excep- with some exceptions, privilege this song in the history of of history the in song this privilege he was working with people like Max Max like people with working was he lasted that bands classic have really people working together, either in a spe- in happened have music the in pened huge part of jazz history or whatever we like like someone like John Coltrane, didn’t being about the soloist. I would say that KV: KV: approach to approach jazz. And, if I am getting someone like Sonny Rollins—who, un- Rollins—who, Sonny like someone cific band or in a specific place. So, even ensembles, have happened in groups of twenty-fi the in now it Century. call rst or taught the world how to swing, as how to the world swing, or taught ensemble playing rather than the fact might you how between distinction some people say. So going back to what you were were you what to back going So I think that’s a big part, I mean a Imean part, big a that’s Ithink “great men” theories of these fantastic fantastic these of theories men” “great And And it was Dizzy Gillespie that did a lot work in isolation. In general, my favorite just can anyone think time. I the don’t tent but there was a pool consistent of trumpet trumpet and just sticking on that pulse and clarinet the between fermata that that last chorus. It’s quite possible that that cast Armstrong an long incredibly wasn’t just one great soloist. And I think them, that helped that music happen. It of two the to addition in with, worked they that people the all and together the combination of these ideas working to understand how the piece could have a lack of emphasis on that somehow. somehow. that on I emphasis of a lack able able to ask them now, I can’t fi gure out music is created by people in ensem- in people by created is music people bouncing ideas off each other all specifi a had consis- was that line-up c music is kind of overshadowed by these the of development the in has it place the but it, of aware is everyone mean nected to the development of bebop and piece is not just his contribution, it’s the improvisers who changed everything everything changed who improvisers incredibly incredibly versatile set of ideas. Trying and ing originality off of his incredible like Charlie Parker. But Charlie Parker Charlie Parker.But Charlie like bles, like Ornette Coleman’s Quartet Quartet Coleman’s Ornette like bles, been developed without really being being really without developed been work- ensemble, the of understanding seventy-plus years after this was re- was this after years seventy-plus shadow which is reaching me, you know, of the theoretical work that was con- was that work theoretical the of know. you vacuum, a in happen didn’t is there that Ithink whatever. groups, Davis’s Miles or groups Coltrane’s or could have just happened, things like like things happened, just have could time, of amount that for rhythm the of corded. And I think that the power of this

173 Ken Vandermark 174 One Reason To Live JN: JN: vised moment, and the way you readmoment, vised thinker who wrote it thinker down for every- means,it what changes moment that body? What’s the difference in terms that do happen in improvised music that wasn’t just Armstrong. I am really fasci- It moment. that created ensemble the think they can make a pretty good argu- the other. There are a lot of people who that neither one is more important than ple, who were just feeling it in the mo- are startling, we won’t know. But even if nated by the dynamics of ensembles. moment, arranged an not and moment point of great musical thinking, whether stand- a from So I think that. for ment argument the make would that people it was that, even if it was an improvised it is improvised or pre-composed, it it pre-composed, or improvised is it ment or was somebody a great musical in a way. Were these like-inspired peo- ine if this was a composed or an impro- KV: KV: say improvisation is composition and and Iis composition improvisation say doesn’t really matter. of the listener’s experience? sympathy between the members of of members the between sympathy You are sitting there trying to imag- But it does effect one’s sense of the Well I think there are a number of number Wella are I there think Armstrong starts to hold that note note that hold to starts Armstrong J from the perspective of a listener, maybe verse moment right now to be sitting just written down, then you are think- as it fl just reading are you if So oat. to to just hang there and the other guys they What don’t. they but new thing the ensemble, doesn’t it? When Louis here with Ken Vandermark, and having for each other and great restraint and to as that an opportunity taken have that even being able to do that—as that—as do to able being even that them. From the artefact itself I’m just just I’m itself artefact the From them. an improvised moment, either way the way either moment, an improvised an arrangement that is preconceived or an ensemble too. So, again, it brings me performed—getting it get to tried and result is startling. And And is startling. Iresult point your see really dependent on communication as is intentions the understand to people ing Louis Armstrong wanted this note ing they are showing great sympathy up with it. blown away that they are able to come back to the point that, either way, if it’s KV: KV: are just following his instructions. someone who has written a lot of music other would have more excitement for for excitement more have would other composition or improvisation one or the depending on their predilection towards do is hang there and let that moment stuff like that. Whereas, if it was all all was it if Whereas, that. like stuff something improvised, you are think- step forward and change or do some- might ensemble in the else someone N :

I am finding this a strange and per- I see your point. But I would say say would I But point. your see I 4/4 4/4 time and opening up the possibility who might say the other one is insane. you say that Louis Armstrong is insane for there to be a feeling associated with for me I become more and more inter- more and more me Ibecome for But But it’s cool, it’s really good. So were there other particular points you want- to the beginning of this ensemble work to meter. This piece, in this moment that time. This is something that has be- has that something is This time. time played? And not just in the context with meter, like playing with 3/4 time or and clarinet over the repeating pulse. pulse. repeating the over clarinet and ronome pulse. How much has to happen music and trying to break out of dealing viduals in that ensemble, not restricted vates something more than just a met- a just than more something vates One One of the things about this—the static KV: KV: a reversal of what you might expect, of and your mind is blown. It’s funny, it’s startling is the fermata of the trumpet trumpet the of fermata the is startling comes up, perhaps because it relates relates it because perhaps up, comes of phrasing as an ensemble and as indi- come very interesting to me and my own play to ways of lots are There jazz. of groove, a feeling of rhythm that moti- that rhythm of feeling a groove, a in the of ested idea constitutes what elements of this are really striking—but ed to make about that section? For me the primary thing that’s that’s thing primary the me For They have somehow isolated the groove fi ed quarter note pulse, and the feeling JN: the most striking. But in that last chorus they they have reduced it down to a quarter trombone repeating, that’s enough to set that beat with the four beat hold and the to get closer to in my own work. which which is really the feeling of the whole where there is this strong quarter note, that I think connects to my interests. interests. my to connects think I that time and there is something about that at the time are the piano and banjo. The maybe it’s 4 bars of Armstrong playing— short— this into freezes, that repetition note. That is really fascinating to me as know what the drums are doing. But es- into this piano cadenza, into the slowed it goes from this moment of stasis, that it is something I am interested in trying is completely there. Part of it is probably isolates the groove as if it is frozen in in frozen is it if as groove the isolates up up the entire feeling of the groove and because the only things that are playing KV: sentially it’s just that one pulse, the uni- down motion of the end of the piece. It’s color of the sound in back of that. But But that. of back in sound the of color the and horns the of nature the to due can’t really hear the drums, so I don’t Iso don’t drums, the hear really can’t and you are holding instruments other character of the composition. It’s like it What else? Well that’s the main thing to me, it’s

175 Ken Vandermark 176 One Reason To Live “click,” just shuts it off almost in an ar- an in almost off it shuts just “click,” Those recordings I guess were made in Hove, from the second record that they Bennink, Peter Brötzmann and Fred Van the early 70s, so that’s like 45 years after got it happening. to already me, you’ve the other side of those experiences. And on be might what to through break to mo- Fluxus-type or Dadaist as them to some of the work by the trio with Han this apartment where I’ve been able to the of chorus one in happening things tificial way. Those are very avant-garde and and you know, self-refl ective moments almost self-reflective in a way, because he has hurled his drums out the window parts and then Han Bennink sounds as if ments with radical, strange, quiet piano mic and it doesn’t fit into the field piece. of It thesounds as if it’s right up on the high hat or the whatever heck it is. It’s in the music, I guess they were trying trying were they Iguess music, the in it is so jarring you haven’t heard that that heard haven’t you jarring so is it blues in 1928. Today I was working in in working Today Iwas 1928. in blues up there and is listening to a record and stay while I’m in London and listening listening and while London in stay I’m the of chorus second the since sound the on closing almost, self-reflective did on FMP. I guess we’d characterise characterise FMP. we’d on Idid guess ran someone like ensemble. It’s the of space sound the of terms in ensemble “West End Blues.” I would qualify this this qualify would I Blues.” End “West I would say that is true of the bebop- the of true is that say would I fashioned. And you at are fashioned. laughing me fully appreciate that aspect. So aspect. that I fully appreciate think But as you go through Armstrong music tive. This is modern music, it’s not old- not it’s music, modern is This tive. time I have worked with Peter, I’ve re- Peter, I’ve with worked Itime have virtu- the of Iguess, word?—fetishism, would I where place another that’s try to analyze technique. It’s very, very very, myself separate would I where is This standpoint. virtuoso technical, a from just not and insane, is trumpet that Peter Brötzmann’s playing is com- playing Peterthat Brötzmann’s a virtuoso. But it’s the leaps of creativity, as something that warrants perspec- warrants that something as ally been stunned about how much he he much how about stunned been ally pers, it’s true of Coltrane. The mistake The mistake Coltrane. of true it’s pers, is Yeah, he history. jazz of perspective knows about American jazz history and and something, seeking raw, pletely way the in raw completely is playing very frequently happens because it is is it because happens frequently very conservative the from radically very ing about Armstrong. The technical skill skill is that amaz- technical not the it’s in this period, the stuff he is doing on on doing is he stuff the period, this in it is not clean, it is fi not it is clean, not out. gured It’s but it, it seeks way in the beautiful it’s like jumping to these things. And in the because I am raving about Armstrong. Armstrong. about raving I am because serves an incredible mind and creativity. separate myself from the—what’s the the the—what’s from myself separate oso improviser. I think that Armstrong’s and creativity understand to difficult and technique qualify to try to easier And And it has really helped me appreciate, what they are doing is magnifying what JN: JN: jazz or American improvisation? Peter’s radical music Peter’s or music radical in that music I the mainstream was in the foundations that these elements that you hear in in hear you that elements these that to talk to Bennink and Van Hove, sit them time, when he said that a lot of the the of lot a that said he when time, associated with music on the fringe of fringe the on music with associated are that elements radical The it. of all Blues,” End “West in right is trying, am about this stuff. And it would be amazing not just Armstrong but these early play- made made an amazing, important point one really great to be able to talk to Peter to talk to able be to great really has really been motivated by Peter’s Peter’s by motivated been really has your- slapping like feel you and place him you hear it in his music all over the realize that, and spend some time with you when And cold. music that knows play- early the for enthusiasm real his very self-evident. I have to give him a him give to Ihave self-evident. very interest in that music and by trying to to trying by and music that in interest is already part of the genetictheofcodealreadyof partis more Dada and Fluxus-kind of moments, lot of thanks because my looking back my lot of looking because thanks understand what Peter’s hearing in it. it. in hearing Peter’s what understand KV: self in the face and saying “why wasn’t I of the music, from the beginning. great clarinet players. great And players. clarinet I would say ers, like Johnny Dodds, he is one of the of mine, another musician, Jeb Bishop, Jeb musician, another of mine, great trios of improvised music. A friend the of one is it Ithink Because group. down and have a discussion about that on Armstrong from where I am now now am I where from Armstrong on he and Bechet and Armstrong like ers catching this before?” because it seems Yeah, maybe in opposition to it. It’s So, are you saying that, in those in that, saying you are So, what sorts of things you are trying to JN: JN: JN: frequently come from isolating elements view point upon yourself and the the and yourself upon point view tions or from other musics that you you that musics other from or tions Sanders’ music and John Coltrane’s Coltrane’s John and music Sanders’ what would bounce back. seeing and sensibility American that at set drum a throw to trying like was three And elements.” so possibly some taking characteristics from Pharaoh Pharaoh from characteristics taking and innovations that happen in the music as a gap between 1970 and where we we where and 1970 between gap a as a few parts of that huge perspective on ple would be someone like Evan Parker highlighted before. Maybe an easy exam- music and huge sense of creativity and music and zeroing in on those. in something that happened in the previ- music you’re making, could you say say you could making, you’re music KV: KV: are hearing? saying “I hear a whole world in these these in world whole a hear “I saying elements that were there but maybe not ous or generation earlier, onfocussing changes the and music the in changes guys were doing in that trio, maybe it it maybe trio, that in doing were guys those and Brötzman that things the of extract, distill from previous genera- previous from distill extract, Distilling it in a way. I’m really fascinated with what I see So if you were to turn that same same that turn to were you if So Distilling it, and looking at one or or one at looking and it, Distilling

177 Ken Vandermark 178 One Reason To Live And And there’s this strange fracturing and fore that I think it’s fair to say a large large a say to fair it’s Ithat think fore Europe, between the Dutch, the English, Before that, it seemed there is a lot of of lot a is there seemed it that, Before then in the United States you had people their own systems of thinking, in many tween the cracks of that, coming up with that investigating is done by being the that investigating trying to look at and study it, things kind way I see it, from trying to understand it their creativity. And then in the 70s, the be- kind of Because things come apart. to use a random year—around that time really becomes it then And working. was happening and how the music was the people that I know, a sense of what and the Germans and other people be- people other and Germans the and awareness, or there seems to be among years. thirty-five say lets so now, are music associated with jazz came from from came jazz with associated music majority of innovations that happen and it seems to me that there really hasn’t hasn’t really there that me to seems it in the last thirty-five years. It seems seems It years. thirty-five last the in interesting interesting to me because in 1970—just like the AACM, who in some ways were been some serious, serious investigation bop and things that were happening. And but the main things were coming out of black Americans. There are exceptions, of of all that have happened things these cases, in reaction to the American hard doing things like the English were doing. of of change. There is a huge explosion in John Cage had already happened where I am coming from a point in time where It doesn’t exist anymore. I could be one Albert Ayler has already happened. I was J where I am, I know, is in relation to that tory, you know, “I heard this record what to trying fi gure out what has been hap- thing thing happening was really post- those where musicians were growing up in in up growing were musicians where well. It’s just not possible. Because that traction of even a myth of a mainstream. age or younger is going to play bebop bebop play to going is younger or age material. I am not a black American and his- oral almost it’s gathered, been has pening, what to do with this history that musicians, and the musicians have been music was developed out of a period period a of out developed was music hundred hundred percent wrong, but it does not this all why it—but articulate to how ing in a post-sampling world now. born in 1964, so any sensibility of any- of sensibility any so 1964, in born KV: seem possible to me that someone my someone that me to possible seem ex- super this like It’s up. broke stuff exchange of information that way. that But information of exchange do you think? Blah blah blah,” and this core of tonal harmony in jazz. developments and the explosion of the curious about—I am trying to figure out N :

That’s true too. I am very, very, very Not Not to that you mention are play- 40s, so we are talking about sixty years you can’t find your geniuses so easily JN: JN: JN: function any more in our society. You society. our in more any function history of jazz, through all the genius- Because you have this one thread which which, again, is connected to trying to trying to connected is again, which, the time to try to sustain this whole thing the 30s and creating their craft in the the in craft their creating and 30s the thirty years late. I’m and them of sense make to trying post-1970. ated with tonality which doesn’t really doesn’t which tonality with ated ago. The time I am in right now is based how to play jazz in a way that is associ- magazines like Downbeat write about all music of its time, of it’s cultural period. provised music is that it really has been im- about thing know, major the me, to a happened thirty happened years ago and I’m just vatories which are trying to teach kids teach to trying are which vatories ing and it’s fantastic, it’s really fantastic. is a positive thing, what happened happened what thing, positive a is meant then. KV: KV: KV: anymore. sustain this system of finances, conser- es as of 1970, that all falls apart and and apart falls all that 1970, of as es on on all these developments that already I am not sure if you are saying this If you look at the connect-the-dots It’s not a straight line and it’s confus- Bebop wouldn’t mean now what it Oh, it’s incredibly positive. It doesn’t make sense to me. me. to sense make doesn’t It Japan and the United States. So, to me, I definitely don’t think it’s negative. I’m And we haven’t even really been fully fully been really even haven’t we And ferent countries in Western Europe and function yet. Lets say you are English English are you say Lets yet. function Because we haven’t even thought what the direction of the art of the music. try to preserve it, that is so far away to from be bogged down in American jazz and the last three decades and it’s time for there is a way to talk about it that then [Derek] IBailey or wouldwhatever. Maybe the schools of thought are, how they they how are, thought of schools the where something else has to happen. happen. to has else something where these other things—here we are at a point the English had, you have this path the threads of thought. And now here we are to-speak, confusion, there are all these another breakthrough to deal with this able to grapple with what happened over and you have been working with guys guys with working been have you and post-AACM—Anthony Braxton and all all and Braxton post-AACM—Anthony has been happening in the United States, infl ux of information from all these dif- in 2005, almost, and you have this path Germans had, and they are like schools love to hear. But as an American, these ParkerEvan like [Paul]and Lytton and schools of thought and then whatever whatever then and thought of schools of thought now. So now what happens? obsessed about it because within that, so-

179 Ken Vandermark