SPECIAL INTERVIEW

The Man who found ’ An Interview with Gennady Nikolayevich Rozhdestvensky

By Alan Mercer Born in on 4 May 1931, (1974-1977 and 1992-1995), and Rozhdestvensky grew up with his the (1980-1982). spritely 85 years of age at conductor father Also in the 1970s, Rozhdestvensky the time of our encounter at (1900-1962) and his singer mother worked as music director and con­ the Paris-based Shostakovich Natalia Rozhdestvenskaya (1900- ductor of the Moscow Chamber ACentre, ’s1997). After graduating from the Music Theatre, where together with demeanour has barely changed from Central Music School at the Mos­ director he revived that of the 1960s, when Western con- cow Conservatory as a pianist in Shostakovich’s 1920s The Nose. cert-goers were first treated to his the class of L.N. Oborin, he began Rozhdestvensky has focused individualistic podium style, not to studying what was to become his much of his career on music of mention his highly affable manner career vocation under the guidance the twentieth century, including with audiences and orchestras alike. of his father. In 1951, he trained at premieres of works by Shchedrin, As one of the few remaining artists the , and went on to Slonimsky, Eshpai, Tishchenko, to have worked closely with the 20th work at the famous venue at vari­ Kancheli, Schnittke, Gubaidulina, century’s music elite—Shostakovich ous periods between 1951 and 2001, and Denisov. included—the conductor’s career is when he became the establishment’s Prior to our conversation, the imbibed with both the traditions General Artistic Director. Maestro agreed to become the DSCH of ’s musical voice and that By the mid-1970s, Rozhdestven­ Journal’s Honorary President, to of the country’s turbulent history. sky had become one of the most mark our 30th anniversary and to Rozhdestvensky’s fondness for the respected conductors in Europe. He seal the links between the conductor spiky anecdote and the barely-veiled was invited as chief conductor of the and the Shostakovich performing critique makes interviewing the BBC Symphony Orchestra (1978- tradition—a fundamental part of maestro an honour—and a challenge. 1981), the Stockholm Philharmonic the Journal’s raison d’être.

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DSCH Journal: Could you tell us how to play themselves? Just what others. Another problem with hav­ about your earliest musical memo­ is he doing?” ing my father as a teacher came at ries—your first concert, and when I think I can say I’ve finally figured examination time: my fellow students you first wanted to become a per­ it out! I’ve been busy waving my hand simply shrugged saying that they had forming musician? around now for more than 60 years. come for nothing, as they were not Gennady Rozhdestvensky: I must And you know, I still get asked, “Why going to be chosen. “Well of course have been eight or nine years old (this are you are doing that? Why are you they will take him—he’s the son of a was towards the end of the 1930s). there?!” Then you have the people professor!” This problem has been It was Mozart’s of Figaro who claim to be able to conduct, and following me around like a tail; it’s conducted by Georges Sebastian, so I tell them, “Go ahead! Take the been dragging behind me all my life- who’d been living in Moscow for a baton! Go ahead and conduct!” But stalking me! Others didn’t have to few years then, and who’d been per­ for some reason the result is not the cope with this. It is why I have been forming many of the Mozart same. After 60 years of , so modest. But at the end of the day, there. My mother was a singer, and I know that this is not an easy job. I worked in the same conditions as she took me along to rehearsals. And I once saw Shostakovich conduct the other conducting students. so here were my first impressions of an orchestra, and he was so afraid. the orchestra and of all of the visual He was conducting the Festival Over­ DSCH: There must also have been aspects of a performance. This was ture, and after this one experience advantages? also the first time that I saw a con­ he decided that it was the end of his ductor at work. conducting career. He said conduct­ GR: Of course—I was able to observe ing was a very difficult task, although the work of my teacher (my father) DSCH: What impression did it make? at the same time so many people very closely, including in the concert Did you think to yourself, “I want wanted to conduct. hall. Some of the best teachers might to do this”? know everything in theory, but they DSCH: You studied with your father? cannot play anything themselves. GR: My first impression was to ask And it is a tragedy to want to be a myself “What is this!?” I found it GR: Yes—and I must say that it’s very conductor but not to know how to difficult to understand, so I asked difficult to learn from your father, play an instrument. Fortunately my my mother, “What is this guy doing mainly because his expectations are father did not have this problem; there? Don’t the musicians know set so much higher for you than for he played very well. He was also a

8 • July 2017 • № 47 • DSCH JOURNAL Alan Mercer • The Man who found Th e Nose’ good teacher. He had both quali­ GR: I’m afraid that when I did find need to be able to hypnotise them a ties—this is rare, and carries with it what I thought was the right solution, little, too. In the end, the players in many advantages. But then if you take the result was completely anti-mu­ the orchestra must think that every­ Arturo Toscanini, he never taught sical. And that was a tragedy! The thing has come from them—that all anyone anything, but he was a great worst situations arose when Bol­ of the musical initiatives were theirs. conductor—a marvellous conductor, shoi productions were transmitted But of course that’s not true... and with a great temperament! live on the radio. My friends would ask, “What are you doing? Why you DSCH: You said in an interview that DSCH: You studied with ? conduct like that? The tempos are so it was necessary to be a dictator—but fast!” My reply was to point out that if only through conviction? GR: I took lessons with him for three I didn’t conduct in this way—the way years. But then I won a competition at they wanted me to conduct—then I GR: Exactly—a dictator, yes, but a the Bolshoi as an assistant and didn’t would be kicked out. But in the end I good dictator, if this is possible... have much time to play any­ developed a strategy. And so during more. And as a consequence of the rehearsals when the dancers started DSCH: In the West, we are aware time I was spending at the theatre, I to complain—“This is too slow. It is of the major differences in tradi­ noticed that I was losing my skills too slow!”—I would respond, “Yes, tion between the Moscow and St. as a performer, and performing as you’re absolutely right. I will increase Petersburg schools. How would you a soloist also became rarer. Here I the tempo.” But in fact, I would keep describe these differences? should mention one special pianist conducting in exactly the same way— with whom I played a Stravinsky ‘How is it now?” “That’s better. That’s GR: This depends very much on concerto—the one written for two much better—great!” the professors. In any case, I would without orchestra. This was I conducted two ballets where ask why should the traditions be the in an open concert in Moscow. I then nobody interfered—no one told me same? It’s a very good thing that they married this pianist, and here she is!! how to conduct: and are different, and it also illustrates the [, sitting along­ Le Sacre du Printemps. Why? Because individuality of the professors. One side us, smiles broadly]. So my calling in these performances, the director might teach this way, and another as a pianist was short-lived, and I conceived and ran the production that way, with different styles. soon understood that stick-waving according to my own design. would be my career. DSCH: This also means that the DSCH: Tell me about when you per­ orchestras play in different ways, DSCH: Let’s just go back to your first formed Britten’s A Midsummer Night’s with different styles... ? time in the Bolshoi—you conducted Dream for the first time in Russia. Did Tchaikovsky. How did you approach you work with the composer on this GR: The orchestra plays as it is asked this performance? production? to play. And all orchestras look for­ ward to one thing: the end of the GR: Yes—I conducted Sleeping GR: No—unfortunately he was in concert. I don’t recall any situation Beauty, and it was a great experi­ London at the time, not in Moscow. when an orchestra insisted, “Let’s ence and a great event! How did I But this was a remarkable production, carry on!” Not once in 60 years of approach it? Well, I approached it directed by Boris Pokrovsky—who conducting—not a single occasion. very carefully!! Because conduct­ in my opinion was the reason that Bruno Walter once said that the most ing is a very delicate matter: people the piece was so exceptionally well a conductor can expect from his observe you, and many of them con­ received. orchestra is a contented parting of sider that even a donkey could learn ways after a concert. how to conduct! I quickly understood DSCH: You have performed a great For the past few years, I have had that success in ballet is determined deal around the world, and you have one particular goal during rehearsals: by the success of the dancers. If the conducted much of the Russian rep­ not to look into the eyes of the mem­ audience accepts and approves of the ertoire. What are the most important bers of the orchestra. This, because dancers, this means that the conduc­ things that you’ve been able to teach their expression usually goes like tor is a professional. But in fact the Western orchestras about Russian this [he grimaces and moans].. .I’m dancers are never satisfied: either it’s music? absolutely serious! And for me it is too slow or it's too fast, and it’s always not right to work like this—there’s the conductor’s fault. GR: If you have a professional orches­ something I don’t like about this. tra, it is not necessary to teach them. Just imagine Otto Klemperer.. .imag­ DSCH: So how do you find the right You simply need to establish a con­ ine if, in the third row of the , balance? nection with the players, and you there was a player with the face of

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Klemperer? I would have to leave! DSCH: Any of the present-day I waited a moment and then replied: And thank God this has never hap­ younger conductors you would par­ “Please, in figure 53, not louder than pened, but what if the whole orchestra ticularly single out? mezzo forte’’ was made up of Klemperers? Then you go home and change jobs! GR: None—there is no comparison. So the question is—what and how to explain exactly? DSCH: How well did you know Kon- DSCH: So when you are working drashin and Mravinsky, and did you with a new Western orchestra before DSCH: When you worked with at times discuss the music you were a performance of a symphony by Shostakovich during a performance currently performing, including new Shostakovich—perhaps one that the of his music, did he ever refer to works? orchestra doesn’t know very well— what a particular theme or motif was how do you prepare the musicians? relating to, or whether the music was GR: With Kondrashin, yes, we would depicting anything in particular? sometimes discuss our work together. DSCH: They do not understand what He was not a great thinker or philos­ the music is about. I can tell you a GR: No—never. He spoke only opher—not at all. He was a practical story about Cleveland, where I con­ about concrete things, such as the conductor, an executor. Mravinsky ducted the Fourth Symphony—not a balance. Problem number one is the was completely different—a dictator! bad orchestra at all, one of the best balance, because it changes in each He would arrive at rehearsals in Len­ orchestras in the world. At the end hall. Shostakovich never interrupted ingrad, and the first thing he would of the second movement, there is a my rehearsals—never. He would wait do was to check the temperature. He passage for percussion [he taps out a until the break, and then he would said that it must always be 17° Cel­ rhythm on the desk]. And one play­ come along to see me with handwrit­ sius: never 18°, never 16°, but always er—a player—asked me: ten notes on a piece of paper. This 17°. And if this was not the case, he was often about what he wanted to would go home. What a damn good “Maestro what is it? Is it horses?” change regarding the balance. He was conductor! So as you can see, people- always so logical and practical—so conductors—are different... Silence. Everybody waiting to see concrete. He was a genius, but he what I was going to say. had no need to demonstrate this in DSCH: Why do you think Mravinsky public. He was very shy. refused to conduct the premiere of “You know, there isn’t a fixed pro­ the Thirteenth Symphony? Shosta­ gramme for this work, so maybe it DSCH: When did you first meet him? kovich was very upset about this, and could be horses, okay, I agree with their friendship never really recov­ you. But it’s not horses, it’s very far GR: I think in the middle of the ered. Why did Mravinsky not give from horses—and from elephants 1940s—1945, 1946, something like this premiere? too!” that. I met him with some other stu­ dents. As far as musical education is GR: There is something called fear. “So what is it about?” concerned, Shostakovich was one of In the Thirteenth Symphony, there the most outstanding teachers of all is a movement entitled “Fear.” The “You know in the prison, when new time, but also a man who spoke very phenomenon known as/ear was very inmates arrive, these inmates try to little, and very sparingly. well-developed in the : make contact with the other prison­ the foundations were already there, ers, who also want to have news about DSCH: Shostakovich’s ability to hear and then came the institutions such as what is happening outside the prison. the smallest detail in the orchestra the Gulag... And people were afraid. And so they find a way of communi­ is often recounted—could you give So this is why it was better to go fish­ cation by using the plumbing system. an example of this? ing and not to conduct the Thirteenth Tap, tap, tap on the radiators. It’s like Symphony. Morse Code.” GR: Yes—and in fact nobody believes me when I tell this story...It was at DSCH: What about today? Who in A long, long silence, but they still did a rehearsal of the Eighth Symphony. your opinion are the best conductors not understand what it was about. There is a long solo for the , of Shostakovich’s music? And then comes another question: which follows a very loud tutti in the full orchestra. In the break during GR: Bernard Haitink, who recorded “But Maestro—why was it necessary rehearsals, Shostakovich asked the all the symphonies, including the to use the heating system when they cor anglais player to come and see wonderful polyglot version of the had the possibility to phone each him, and he asked, “So why didn’t Fourteenth Symphony. other?” you play the G?” Shostakovich said

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Dmitri Shostakovich with Gennady Rozhdestvensky during a rehearsal of the opera The Nose, September 1974 (photo credit: V. Polunin) that the note was missing, and that the Conservatory, saying that “this hear the Fourth after 25 years? Did the chord had lost part of its timbre student has incredible hearing, but you have resistance from the Soviet as a result—it was now a different my dogs can hear much better!” He authorities? “colour.” The soloist replied that he was the best student at the Conser­ didn’t play this note as he was pre­ vatory, and he possessed what was GR: Yes, of course—everybody was paring to play the following long in fact superhuman hearing. against it! I finally received the green solo, and that it was impossible to light from the Moscow authorities to hear the note during the tutti any­ DSCH: You said that Shostakovich perform the Fourth Symphony with way. But Shostakovich did hear the was very shy—very reserved? one condition: that in one concert missing note—a single note in a full there would be the Fourth Symphony, orchestral tuttil In my entire life, I GR: Yes—he was very shy. Life was and in the second [concert], the have never met a person with such very difficult for him. Twelfth Symphony. hearing capability. And then there was the scien­ DSCH: And Shostakovich as a DSCH: Were the authorities some­ tist Pavlov—a physiologist. Pavlov dissident? how afraid of the Fourth Symphony? asked the Leningrad Conservatory to provide a student having the best GR: A dissident? No. He was Pimen GR: Everybody was afraid of the developed hearing abilities. The from Boris Godunov. He was a chron­ product of genius... Conservatory director sent him icler of time, through music. Shostakovich. Pavlov made Shosta­ DSCH: I’d like to clarify your opin­ kovich listen to sounds whose pitch DSCH: You gave the Western pre­ ion on the Twelfth Symphony. Some is generally well below or well above mieres of the Fourth and Twelfth commentators and critics consider the normal hearing range of a human Symphonies in Edinburgh, in 1962. that there is no interesting music being. When he’d finished, Pavlov How did this come about? Was in the Second, Third, Eleventh, and thanked Shostakovich and sent him this your initiative, to offer West­ Twelfth—that it is pure programme home. He then called the director of ern audiences the chance finally to music. But you’ve written that the

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Twelfth is not, in fact, dedicated the any case, I picked it up and took it As I mentioned before, I am sure Bolshevik Revolution? home—but what should I do with it? that Shostakovich did not own a I called the composer, who told copy of the score, as he had sold it. GR: The symphony is in another lan­ me that he no longer had the score But given his phenomenal memory, guage. But the power of its language because it had been sold to a Vienna he had all of the music here—inside is the same, and the chronicler of publishing house. And he said with his head—in all the detail, and I time is the same. This is the truth. a very sad voice, “Please, I would will tell you why I am sure of this. Shostakovich was present during my just like to have a look at it!” He Directly after the premiere of The rehearsals of both symphonies, and said to be careful with it, and I went Nose I was sitting with a recording he had absolutely the same level of immediately to see him. He said he technician—we had had a recording interest in both works—his attention would like to keep it at home just for made of the performance—when was exactly the same. It surprised me, a few days to look at it, and would Shostakovich entered the room. I but these were his children. As he arrange for copies to be made (at that handed him the score so that he used to say, “I like my children—all time of course it wasn’t possible to could listen to the playback and look of my children.” And this is under­ make Xerox copies). He honoured at the score at the same time. His standable—it’s understandable. his promise for this manuscript to response, however, was, “I don’t need be reproduced, and he returned it the score—I remember everything.” DSCH: So to The Nose—how did the to me in two copies! I was dazed, but I felt tingles on my spine, but at the 1974 production come to fruition? in the end I kept my copies, because same time I thought it couldn’t be Was Boris Pokrovsky the driving force I was more or less sure that he also true. One-and-a-half or two hours behind the new production? had a copy! later, after we had finished listening On the manuscript, there was an to the recording, and during which GR: Yes—Pokrovsky was indeed a official stamp belonging to the library time Shostakovich had been sitting vital part of the opera’s revival, but of the Bolshoi Theatre (this manu­ there with his eyes closed muttering, I should also to tell you about how script must have arrived at the Bolshoi “Yes.. .yes.. the composer cited the the opera’s manuscript turned up: I when discussions were taking place places in the score where he approved found the score in a Bolshoi Theatre about a possible staging of this opera). of the performance, and others were bunker! It’s a complicated story, but So what to do—this was the Bolshoi he thought there were problems. For I will try to tell you about it. It was Theatre’s official stamp. And then I example, “at that point you cannot 1943, and air attacks took place on had a great idea! I went into a music make out the .” I made so a daily basis in Moscow. I was still a shop in Moscow, where I found the many written notes, but not Shosta­ small boy then—I was ten or eleven score of the opera The Demon by kovich. He didn’t make a single note, years old—but my mum insisted that Nikolai Rubenstein—it was a very nor did he make a single mistake— we should go down into the bomb exotic edition with gold edges, like not even once. And he returned home shelter. This was at five o’clock. And from a museum. So I bought the score as if nothing special had happened. exactly—minute for minute—at five and wrote a note to the Director of Everybody who was present was very o’clock, the Germans attacked. There the Bolshoi, suggesting an exchange. surprised—really shocked! were some very serious incidents: I received an official thank you note Shostakovich had been present at buildings collapsed and many people attesting that I was providing the all the rehearsals of The Nose in the died, were trapped under the rubble. score of The Demon and that they Moscow theatre. He had difficulty So we stopped going into the shelters. were supplying me with the man­ walking, so he’d be often be found The Bolshoi Theatre had a bomb uscript of the opera The Nose—“an sitting in the audience seats. And shelter. And one day—sometime in opera by Shostakovich, which is of during one entracte he ask me why the 1960s—it was decided that the no use to us”—and this, along with the harp couldn’t be heard. I replied old bomb shelters would be made the signature of the director of the saying that I didn’t think it possible: into cellars. And so we were asked to Bolshoi! Finally, I also asked the the whole orchestra was playing/or- help to clear them out. Once in the Director of the Bolshoi to officially tissimo. But I promised to go and shelter, I looked around and saw a cross out the original stamp to be see what the reason might be. I saw large book on the floor, full of dust: sure that there would be no more the harpist, and I asked her why she it was a very big, thick book. When future problems. didn’t play? Her reply was that it was I opened it, I saw “The Nose” written Later, I worked with Shostakov­ not possible with metal strings—only on the first page. This was the score, ich’s widow Irina Antonovna, and she the old-fashioned strings would do, drawn up by the copyist, of the full issued a re-edition. The score has been those made of gut. opera, and with a lot of comments printed again, after so many adven­ written in the margins, by Shosta­ tures, and the original document has DSCH: Did Shostakovich change kovich, and lots of corrections. In been returned and is in a museum. anything at all in the score?

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GR: He just changed some words, GR: I was once here in Paris at a And Bruckner replied, “You know but nothing in the music: it was performance of the Fifth Symphony— young man, when they say that some­ impossible to touch anything—just Mravinsky with the Leningrad thing is very important, you need to like you cannot change anything in Philharmonic. Next to me was the stop and think.” Bach—it’s unthinkable! Romanian conductor Constantin Sil- vestri, who was also about to perform DSCH: What was the happiest musi­ DSCH: Was this a success for Shosta­ the Fifth Symphony and wanted to cal moment of your life and your kovich— was he happy? hear how Mravinsky would perform career? the work. After the concert, we went GR: The Nose was a triumph for to see Shostakovich backstage. Sil- GR: Very, very difficult question— him—it was 50 years later, but he vestri introduced himself and asked, some of the most important moments valued this piece highly, and always ‘Please, could you tell me, are the were The Nose and the Fourth Sym­ said that it had no equivalent. tempo indications in the finale of phony. But it's difficult to say, because the symphony correct?” Shostakov­ when you play the Eighth or the DSCH: During the years, you have ich replied: “Yes—they are absolutely Tenth Symphony, you immediately brought many little or unknown correct.” “But Mravinsky played with have the impression that this is the works by Shostakovich to audiences. different tempi,” Silvestri remarked, best. And each time I conduct the Was this something that you had to which Shostakovich replied: “Yes, Eighth Symphony, the modulation always been interested in? And was he’s also right!” And this ended the from the passacaglia to the finale it specifically because this was music conversation. from G Minor to C Major—again you from his youth? And as you may know, Shostak­ say to yourself, “this is the best!!” And ovich claimed that during his youth it’s the same with all of the sympho­ GR: Not a matter of “interest.” This his metronome was broken. In the nies, except for the Second and the was a passion, and I was caught by score of the Fifth Symphony, the Third, in which I find a kind of parody. this passion—the passion to perform tempo actually increases towards For me there is a connection between and to record these works. the finale, but so much so that you Shostakovich and Zoshchenko. And end up with a tempo that is almost Shostakovich never said a word about DSCH: Tell something about the impossible to play. Shostakovich said what these were about. He only talked Big Lightning. You completed this to me with an air of great dignity about the Seventh Symphony in that score, and you also performed and and seriousness that this was done respect: it was about the blockade. recorded it. deliberately to prevent conductors The text he used in the Second and slowing down! Third—these were stupid texts, but GR: Yes—this was an unfinished Shostakovich said, “the poetry is operetta by Shostakovich based DSCH: You recorded all versions of tame.” But of course he needed to on a by Nikolai Asayev. I the Bruckner symphonies... satisfy the authorities, there was a think that every note of Shostakov­ need to placate. In my view, there ich should be recorded, and also by GR: All 24 of them, yes! are interesting pages in these two different performers. symphonies, but it’s impossible to DSCH: Do you see any parallels compare them to, say, the Eighth DSCH: Are there any more works in terms of symphonic technique Symphony. that you might be able to perform or continuations of style between and record? symphonies by Bruckner and Shos­ DSCH: told me takovich, respectively? several years ago that he thought the GR: I don’t think so, but you never Fourth Symphony would become one know. After all, The Nose was found GR: I think there are parallels, but of his father’s most important sym­ in the rubble. there are many more between Shos­ phonies—this was twenty years ago takovich and Mahler. Shostakovich’s when the symphony was not played DSCH: I’m interested in the question adoration of Mahler put everything quite so often. of tempo in Shostakovich’s works, else into the background. I think his which is sometimes the subject of relation or his attitude towards the GR: I think this is a most important discussion or even controversy, given use of pauses and certain rhythmic work, yes. And there was just a small certain differences in written and elements brings them closer together. matter of 25 years’ wait before it was performed tempi—for example in You know Nikisch, who directed performed! the finale of the Fifth Symphony. Bruckner’s Second Symphony in • • • What are your thoughts on this Vienna, stepped up to Bruckner and subject? asked why there were so many pauses. Interpreter: Daria Ostaptschuk

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