Vol. 185 Wednesday, No. 18 31 January 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 31 January 2007.

Death of Former Members: Expressions of Sympathy ……………………1569 Business of Seanad ………………………………1581 Order of Business …………………………………1582 Visit of Northern Ireland Delegation …………………………1597 Order of Business (resumed)……………………………1598 Order of Business: Motion ……………………………1598 Planning and Development Regulations 2007: Motion ……………………1599 Council Framework Decision on Organised Crime: Motion …………………1599 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: Order for Second Stage ……………………………1599 Second Stage …………………………………1600 Human Rights Issues: Motion ……………………………1609 Adjournment Matters: Pharmacy Regulations ……………………………1643 Inland Fisheries ………………………………1647 Schools Building Projects ……………………………1650 1569 1570

SEANAD E´ IREANN from 1973 to 1979 as a member of the European Parliament, becoming a vice president of that ———— assembly. He gave dedicated and patriotic service to De´ Ce´adaoin, 31 Eana´ir 2007. Fianna Fa´il, Ireland and Europe. As we know, his Wednesday, 31 January 2007. late father, William Butler Yeats, donated many of his treasures to the National Gallery and there ———— is currently an exhibition in the National Library marking his life. For that, the Yeats family, and Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar Michael Yeats in particular, deserve to be much 2.30 p.m. admired. He spoke about those aspects in another interview I heard played on the radio. ———— For years, Michael Yeats was a member of the Dalkey Fianna Fa´il cumann and attended the var- Paidir. ious functions run by that body and by other Prayer. cumainn in Dublin and elsewhere. I remember that when he was invited to a function in the mid- ———— lands, he was so willing to attend as a committed member of the party. I know his family will be Death of Former Members: Expressions of devastated by his passing. Many of us have met Sympathy. his daughter Sı´le Yeats who works in RTE. I Ms O’Rourke: On behalf of my party and on express our deep sympathy to his family along behalf of the House I wish to express my sym- with our thanks for all the years of service he pathy with Mrs. Gra´inne Yeats and her family on gave to our party and to his country. the sad death of the former Senator Michael Yeats. He served in this Chamber for many years Mr. B. Hayes: On behalf of my Fine Gael col- with truly great distinction, in addition to a period leagues, I join the Leader in expressing our sin- as Cathaoirleach, and his work here was much cere sympathy to the family of the late Senator admired. When we talk about Michael Yeats we Michael Yeats. I did not know him personally but tend to place him within the context of both his I read about him and was aware that he was the father and grandfather but he was a man of great son of the great poet and patriot, William Butler eminence himself. All his recent obituaries prove Yeats. As the Leader rightly said, Michael Yeats that fact. had his own talents and skills. His commitment to He was a stalwart member of the Fianna Fa´il public service over a period of approximately 35 party from his youth. When he attended second- years was immense. It is always more difficult to ary school, which was rather posh and maybe be the son of a famous man — someone who was more suited to the other side of the House—— indelibly marked by the foundation of the State and the literary revival. His father was at the Mr. B. Hayes: The Senator should speak for heart of all that, yet in his own life Michael Yeats herself. made a substantial contribution to the history of this country, including parliamentary life. As the Ms O’Rourke: ——he was teased about his Leader said, it is particularly poignant that we republican sympathies, but he expressed them would remember a former Cathaoirleach of the forcibly early on. He wrote a brilliant memoir House because that very distinguished office entitled Cast a Cold Eye in which he explained within our Constitution and the House is not that the prejudices of his fellow students turned given to everyone who goes through this House. him into a de Valera republican from an early That he served in such a way for such a period age. I thought that was interesting, although I do deserves to be mentioned and honoured today. not know what school he attended. He had a life- I was interested to learn when I was long commitment to Fianna Fa´il. researching his life that he was one of the first When he had passed away, I was listening to vice presidents of the European Parliament. At the radio by chance and heard John Bowman’s that time, before direct elections were introduced selection of extracts from the many interviews in 1979, we appointed people to the European Michael Yeats had given over the years. He gave Parliament. It was a very distinguished role. He one such interview to Mike Murphy in which he clearly had the support and the credibility within was both funny and explicit about his politics. his political party because to be not only selected Michael Yeats was first appointed to the as an MEP in the period before direct elections Seanad in 1951 by E´ amon de Valera, and was but also appointed as a vice president of the Par- subsequently re-appointed by Sea´n Lemass and liament shows the standing in which he was held Jack Lynch — three former Taoisigh. Michael within his own party. Yeats was also elected to this House at least once I am aware of the great contribution Senator if not twice. He was a strong supporter of the Yeats and his family made to ensuring that many European ideal and in the 1950s represented of the Yeats papers — the memorabilia and the Ireland on the Council of Europe. He served primary source material that was connected with 1571 Death of Former Members: 31 January 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 1572

[Mr. B. Hayes.] made such munificent donations to the National the poet’s life — remained in this country. I Library. understand he and his family were offered a very I would like to tell a story on that subject. Ten significant sum of money as a means of ensuring or more years ago I was invited to speak at an those papers would go into a private collection, international symposium on Joyce in Monte probably outside this country, but he chose in the Carlo where one of the attendant events was an most patriotic way to offer these great papers to exhibition and talk on Jack B. Yeats, sponsored the National Library to ensure that Irish people by the waste paper magnate Mr. Smurfit. As a in centuries to come would be able to see the result of this, Stephen Joyce, the grandson of work of the great poet. James Joyce, made a most ill-natured and ill- It is with great regret that we offer our sym- judged attack on the Yeats family, chiding it for pathy to his wife Gra´inne, his daughters what he described as the way the family was milk- Caitrı´ona, Siobha´n and Sı´le and his son, Pa´draig. ing the resources of the Yeats estate for financial We will always cherish his memory and his advantage. The words “pot”, “kettle” and service in this House. “black” sprang into many minds in the audience. However, Michael Yeats’ sister Ann was present Mr. Norris: I would like to say a few words on and in a dignified way — without rebuking, behalf of the Independent Senators in memory of attacking or mentioning Stephen, a wonderful the late Senator Yeats. My colleague, Senator humiliation — said that as the question had been Ross, also has particular reason for wishing to say raised, the gathering should know the arrange- a few words and I hope he might be indulged, ments made by the Yeats family were A, B, C, with the approval of the House. and D and they indicated the immense degree of Yeats is a name to conjure with. What a tribute the donation that had been made. it is to that family that the late Senator Michael Michael Yeats was a very good Cathaoirleach Yeats emerged unscathed from the extraordinary of the House, but before my time. As father of celebrity of that family. We tend to forget that his the House, Senator Ross may be closer to that grandfather was an internationally known period although he is younger than me in years, but not in wisdom. Those of us aware of Michael painter, John B. Yeats. His father was one of the Yeats’s political career bear in mind that he was world’s greatest poets, William Butler Yeats. His a strong, broad-minded, non-partisan European. uncle was Jack B. Yeats. Many people have been Therefore, he is someone whose passing we can damaged by the fact a parent achieved such a mourn. degree of international celebrity, but it is all The last time I saw Michael Yeats was around through that family and continues. Anne Yeats is Christmas 2005. He floated up the street, a tall, a remarkable painter, Gra´inne Yeats is a elegant figure in a raincoat, carrying some musician of great talent and Sı´le Yeats, who we Christmas parcels and took a rest in Leinster all know, works in our broadcasting service. House. He had achieved a mature age, so his I have said it is a name to conjure with. Of death is not a tragedy but the culmination of a course, that relates to the literary world. I did not life for which we should all be grateful. know the late Senator Yeats very well but I did occasionally meet him, which is why I wanted to Mr. Ryan: Professor Roy Foster is not my pay tribute to him today. I found him a man of favourite historian, but his magnificent two-vol- remarkable breadth of intellect and generosity. I ume biography of William Butler Yeats, one and was asked by Professor Declan Kiberd to speak a half volumes of which I have managed to read, at the Yeats school in Sligo, which is a wonderful raised in my mind the point raised by Senator institution and long may it thrive. After many Norris. Perhaps the single greatest tribute to both years of the school’s operation, I was asked to William Butler Yeats and Senator Michael Yeats give an iconoclastic view of Yeats from the Joyce is that a man of such firmly rooted good sense point of view. I had great fun in doing it but I was survived extraordinary celebrity. vehemently attacked — almost physically — by I did not appreciate that celebrity existed on an American professor who said, “Do you think the scale it did 100 years ago until I read Pro- it is honourable to receive an honorarium for fessor Foster’s biography. William Butler Yeats spewing this filth out before students?” There was not just a poet, but a significant national and was nothing filthy in what I had said, I was simply international celebrity, with all that carried with outlining what Joyce had to say. Michael Yeats it. It is astonishing that Michael Yeats came from enjoyed it all with a broad smile and indicated that with the breadth of vision he clearly had. I that he was very pleased that his father could still will not try to pay tribute to a man I never met, cause fireworks. That is the kind of spirit I but he clearly had vision and it is clear he left a really like. wonderful memory in Fianna Fa´il. He is not just I am glad Senator Brian Hayes and the Leader somebody about whom people are nostalgic or have both paid tribute to the generosity of the whom they remember in a ritual way. It is clear Yeats family because it is remarkable. Literary he had an impact on Fianna Fa´il and that it had papers are a very marketable product. It is a sig- an impact on him and left him with huge loyalty nal of the generosity of the Yeats family that they to the party. 1573 Death of Former Members: 31 January 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 1574

The richness of that sort of family commitment Michael Yeats was a candidate in the general is something which culminated in extraordinary election of 1948 and became a Member of this generosity in terms of the amount of the memor- House in 1951. He was a very distinguished abilia of William Butler Yeats which has been Cathaoirleach, but the aspect on which I would donated to the Irish people. It will, courtesy of like to concentrate is his contribution to the the National Library, be a source of wonder, European movement, beginning with the Council entertainment and study for generations. That of Europe. He was the first Irish speaker in the heritage could have been scattered to a dozen European Parliament and later, as the Leader different enormously rich American universities, stated, a Vice President. In times when we were as has happened in other cases. It is not just a less confident as a nation, that was a most singu- tribute to the poetry of William Butler Yeats, but lar achievement. It was also very important that to the extraordinary practical patriotism of the Irish voices be heard in that forum and through- Yeats family. There is, of course, no doubt that out Europe. It has been through people such as former Senator Yeats was a man of considerable Senator Yeats that Irish society has advanced to years, meaning that there is no sense of tragedy this point, where we have confidence in our mem- in his passing. However, there is a sense of his- bership of the European Union and our place tory, since we are moving a generation further internationally. Those are part of the legacy he away from figures who formed our national con- left us. sciousness. Professor Roy Foster’s biography was With regard to the papers, it is highly signifi- the first time I fully appreciated, as an ignorant cant, and to the family’s great credit, that the engineer, the degree to which a culturally separ- Yeats collection is with the National Library. I do ate identity was moulded at the turn of the 20th not find it surprising, however, since they were century along with the political one. There was a patriots, and that is why they gifted it. That is ferment of different ideas, people who argued another respect in which we might usefully learn with Yeats and with whom he argued, out of from the life of the late Senator. For those which emerged a very distinct sense of a separate reasons and the others mentioned, I mark his identity for the people of this State as opposed to passing and extend our sympathy to his wife and ´ what was then the rest of the United Kingdom. family, as well as to his Fianna Fail colleagues. Michael Yeats was quite clearly a product of Mr. Scanlon: I echo the sentiments of all speak- such a sense of different identity. It was not an ers and, as a Sligo person, convey my sympathy exclusive one, since he was a committed Euro- to the late Senator’s wife and children on behalf pean, and his father was also a man of inter- of the people of the county. I had the honour of national vision, with a great attachment to poets meeting Michael Yeats on several occasions, most not only from different countries but from differ- notably when he was made a freeman of the Bor- ent parts of the world, Rabindranath Tagore ough of Sligo. It was always very nice to meet the being one of his great friends and heroes. man, since he was a genuinely warm and pleasant It is therefore a particularly apposite moment person to talk to, and the conversation could be ´ for Seanad Eireann to pay tribute to the late extremely interesting. There is no doubt he was a Michael Yeats. On behalf of the Labour Party, I mine of information, and I certainly enjoyed his sympathise with his family on the occasion of company each time I met him. He made a con- their considerable loss. However, I would also siderable contribution to the Fianna Fa´il party. like to think we were celebrating the man and the He was most influential in the early years of the family, who did so much to give this country a party from the 1950s on, as Cathaoirleach and as separate identity and then, having done so, con- a member of the European Parliament. I express tributed to its development and security. my deepest sympathy on behalf of Sligo people to his wife, his three daughters and his son, Pa´draig. Mr. Dardis: On behalf of the Progressive Democrat group, I join the Leader of the House Mr. Ross: Former Senator Yeats was extraordi- and those of the other groups in mourning the narily self-effacing, a quality that is rare in this passing of former Senator Michael Yeats. I House. It is most unusual for politicians to have acknowledge his contribution to Ireland and cel- this quality and to survive with it intact. It is a ebrate a very long and distinguished life. tribute to the respect in which he was held by his Members of the family have been well spoken of fellows and the people that he survived. We could by others, and I will not repeat those sentiments, all learn a lesson from this if we were honest. other than to say this. Among those things for Senator Yeats was complex and full of contra- which they were notable, something perhaps dictions, as a result of bearing the burden of a unusual at the time, was their belief that national- famous name. I suspect it was difficult for him in ism and inclusion were not mutually exclusive that he bore the name of his father without shar- ideas. They felt they could embrace nationalism ing his interests and passions. The book to which as part of an inclusive process, which is how the Leader referred informs us of the disinterest nationalism should be and how I believe it was and the tense relationship between father and practised by both Senator Yeats and his father, in son. This also told us a great deal about his father, whose poetry it is evident. for which we should be thankful. 1575 Death of Former Members: 31 January 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 1576

[Mr. Ross.] the new Government to have its own nomination. The most interesting point is a political one I indicated that I would like Mr. Sea´n O’Leary to that has been made by all sides of the House. continue in his post and I wrote inviting him to Although he came from a particular background continue his work on the Luas investigations, and was sent to St. Columba’s College, a very which had been set up and adjourned. He replied posh school, he developed republican views early with a brief and witty letter, stating he was sur- in life. His best friend at school was Mr. Brian prised but honoured and that he would continue Faulkner, who was subsequently Northern his work. Ireland Prime Minister. That friendship was I should tell the House how wonderful he was maintained throughout the difficult times both when dealing with that investigation. He sat in endured. Senator Yeats held strong republican his chamber, which I believe was over Heuston views and was considered to be on the republican Station, with a secretary from the Department. wing of Fianna Fa´il but was tolerant of what took When people argued that their gardens would be place north of the Border in a more intransigent affected or reverberations would be felt in their atmosphere. That is a considerable tribute to him. houses he went to visit those houses and walked His generous donation to the National Library the part of the line affected. If he felt the people was an extraordinary gesture. He could have concerned had a case, he offered them a certain raised massive sums if he sold these items. He was amount of money and that was then end of the controversial in this House for reasons of which I matter. I did not receive a letter of complaint on am not aware. When he was appointed Cathaoir- the matter and neither did anyone else. He dealt leach there were two votes against him, from with everyone with a fairness of manner and Senators Sheehy Skeffington and Robinson. I do breadth of vision. I was told by a person who not wish to redeem this on behalf of Trinity works in these Houses that he was seen prowling College Dublin but, on behalf of my constituents, around the back of a house one night walking on I pay tribute to him and express sympathy with the land pertaining to a complaint. The investi- the family. gation team had amazing powers which he exer- cised fully. The result was everybody accepting An Cathaoirleach: I wish to be associated with his dictum. He was able to give the good and the the tributes to Michael Yeats, who served as a bad story to people and had qualities of serving. Senator from August 1951 to March 1980 when I wrote to him in thanks when the process fin- he resigned to pursue his career in Europe. He ished and he replied with a most charming letter, also held office as Cathaoirleach from 1969 to stating his hope that everyone travelling on the 1973. I was elected in 1977 and had the pleasure Luas would have good and happy of serving with him. I knew him quite well and he 3 o’clock journeys, which has been the case. was a gentleman in every sense of the word. He That wisdom and experience gained was intellectual, humorous and kind. On many from the process would have served him well occasions I was entertained by his humorous and when he went on to the Circuit Court and High astute descriptions of campaigning strategy in Court benches. He was a wonderful and an amaz- Seanad elections. He was held in high regard by ing person, being very practical, ordinary, down all parties and had a wide circle of friends across to earth and full of common sense. Even in the the political spectrum. I extend sincere sympathy six months I served with him in the Seanad I can to his wife Gra´inne, Caitrı´ona, Siobha´n, Pa´draig remember those qualities with startling quality. and especially to Sı´le who worked in Seanad Hence I was able to decide very quickly who E´ ireann for some years. I now call on Senators to should chair the Luas investigation team. pay tribute to Mr. Sea´n O’Leary. His family must be devastated by his loss. He is survived by his wife, Mary, and children Ms O’Rourke: I wish to pay tribute to Mr. Sea´n Margaret, Anne, Patrick, Mary and Catherine, as O’Leary, a former Senator and High Court judge. well as sisters and a brother. He did an amazing He served as a Senator on two separate occasions service with the valedictory papers he left behind and his passing will be mourned because he cer- which were written about and produced after his tainly died before his time. There was a number death. He asked that these would await his of times in a row when the Seanad sat for only passing. six months and I served in one of those periods He also chaired the Residential Institutions with Mr. O’Leary. I was always struck by his prac- Redress Board responsible for compensating the tical approach to all matters and the way he cut victims of abuse in State orphanages and I would through humbug, palaver or whatever one might like to think his same practicality and common call it. sense shone through what must have been very I later had occasion to observe this at first hand difficult discussions on those matters. The judicial when I became responsible for the Department world will miss him greatly. of Public Enterprise. Mr. O’Leary had been He gave fine service to this Chamber and on appointed by a previous Government to be the behalf of my party I express sympathy to his wife judge presiding over the Luas investigations, but and family. I also express my gratitude for his the General Secretary of the Department, seek- many services to not only the Houses of the ing to do the right thing, stated that he expected Oireachtas but also to the State. 1577 Death of Former Members: 31 January 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 1578

Mr. B. Hayes: Unlike Senator Yeats, Sea´n Sea´n O’Leary is a model for those wanting to fol- O’Leary died before his time. Those of us who low a career in politics. knew him from being in the heart of Fine Gael One of the great parts of his life he politics for more than 30 years prior to his remembered and cherished was his time as Lord appointment to the Bench were extremely sad- Mayor of Cork in 1972. The President at that dened to hear of his death at Christmas. I was in time, E´ amon de Valera, had never been offered The Lough Church on St. Stephen’s night with the freedom of the city of Cork. Over Christmas, other colleagues and the outpouring of love and I read that Sea´n O’Leary regarded it as a great affection for him from the legal and political com- honour that as Lord Mayor he was able to pro- munities, friends and family was there to be seen. pose and see through offering the freedom of the He was truly a great man. city to E´ amon de Valera. In recent times he thought about retiring and I spoke to some of his colleagues on the night spending time with his children and grand- of the funeral. I was struck by the number of children. However, this terrible illness occurred judges who stated not only did he deserve to be shortly before Christmas and he was taken from a Circuit Court judge but that he deserved to be his beloved family. It is a tragic loss for the a High Court judge and that he had the intellect O’Leary family and everyone who knew Sea´n to go with it. There is often a question mark over O’Leary. who becomes a judge in this country, but he had I got to know him during the 1992 general elec- the respect of his colleagues right across the tion campaign. I had just left college and my first Bench and in all sections of the legal community. job was to work for the Fine Gael party as an We offer our deepest sympathy to his wife, alleged apparatchik. I was given a Nissan Micra Mary, and his children, Margaret, Anne, Patrick, and one of the extremely large mobile telephones Mary and Catherine. In particular, we remember about half the size of one’s arm which existed at in this House the passing of a great man who the time. My job was to travel around the country served Irish life, politics and the legal system in with our party leader and take calls from Sea´n this country with such distinction all his life. O’Leary. I recall him ringing four or five times every day with his distinctive Cork city voice — Mr. Ross: Like the Cathaoirleach and possibly which unlike the Cork county voice is shrill and only Senators O’Rourke and Ryan, I served with to the point — asking to “get me so and so” and Sea´n O’Leary for the short period he was a Member of this House in the 1980s. While I agree one got the person for him. He was very much to with Senator Brian Hayes that one of his most the point and, as the Leader stated, practical. I distinguishing characteristics was that he was got to know him very well during that campaign. unparalleled on the logistics of politics such as the Since the foundation of the party, no one in minutiae of elections and constituencies and was Fine Gael commanded the same respect in terms extraordinarily beneficial to the party to which he of his approach to elections and the advice he was attached, this is not really what his lasting gave the party leadership and candidates. His legacy will be. Senator Brian Hayes put his finger knowledge of the system of proportional rep- on it when he said that although he was a real resentation by single transferable vote was insider in Fine Gael at the time and the quin- second to none. On election night, the person to tessential national handler who was trusted with listen to on radio was Sea´n O’Leary because he the ear of the leader and the people who called it first and always got it right. He was the mattered in Fine Gael, he stated in this House quintessential national handler. one day that he would not vote for the Criminal It was right and proper of Dr. Garret Justice Bill 1983. This is a very difficult thing to FitzGerald, on assuming the office of Taoiseach do. It is all right if one is a known maverick with in the early 1980s, to appoint Sea´n O’Leary to no career left within the party, but Sea´n O’Leary this House. He was not a candidate or on the way voted against the Criminal Justice Bill and was up or down. His knowledge of politics and sheer outside the party for a period of about six practicality required him to be a Member of this months. He was out of the party and its higher House and what a distinguished Member he was. councils of which he was a vital member for so It is worth stating that even though he was a loyal long. Fine Gael Member of the House during most of This was not the only evidence that he was a the 1980s, he lost the party whip when he voted man of incredibly independent mind. Just before against a criminal justice Bill. he died, he left his verdict on an amazing judgment, which was immensely courageous. In Mr. Ryan: He did indeed. barely coded language, he criticised the Supreme Court in terms which were very courageous. He Mr. B. Hayes: It shows his independence of said the Supreme Court of this nation had bowed mind. It is extremely difficult to lose the whip, to the mob, that we needed a Supreme Court particularly on the Government side, to vote which would not take a populist view and which against one’s colleagues, to take the other posi- would not make judgments because they were tion and be shunned. However, he showed that popular but make unpopular judgments and that absolute independence of mind on key issues and this is why the Supreme Court existed. This was 1579 Death of Former Members: 31 January 2007. Expressions of Sympathy 1580

[Mr. Ross.] I was somewhat sorry when he was made a the sort of obiter dictum which many people were judge because much of the man therefore had to thinking about that particular judgment but dared be concealed within the proprieties of his posi- not say. It was characteristic and typical of Sea´n tion. By all accounts, as the Leader has said, he O’Leary that he should have put this debate into was a very capable man in his judicial role. I the public arena and caused a great deal of believe he was also a very compassionate man in controversy but also accentuate his own inde- this role. The other wonderful side of his person- pendence. ality was taken from us from the public point of For this reason, we are at a loss for his depar- view, especially the extraordinary political analy- ture because we need more people who have the sis laced with considerable and wicked humour. guts to say and do things which are unpopular in Above all, his early death took away from us, the face of colleagues who will shun them for in a way that seems so unfair and cruel, a real doing so. I mourn his loss and, on behalf of the and genuine human being who contributed to life, Independent Senators, express my sympathy to politics and his family. He was a man of humour his family. and compassion, a consummate lawyer and, in my case, a friend. He is a significant loss to Irish life, Mr. Ryan: I am privileged to be able to say I an even more significant loss to Fine Gael and, think Sea´n O’Leary would have been a friend of clearly, a huge loss to his family. We, in the mine. He was the sort of friend one would like to Labour Party, would very much like to be associ- have, which meant that sometimes he was one’s ated with the words of sympathy to his family. Ar greatest ally and sometimes when he felt that one dheis De´ go raibh a anam fı´or-uasal dı´lis. deserved to be told something else, he was well able to say it in language that was not equivocal. Mr. Dardis: On behalf of the Progressive One would never be under any illusion when Democrats, I am happy to join in the tributes Sea´n O’Leary disagreed with one because it being made to the late Sea´n O’Leary and to would not be couched in equivocations or hints. extend our sympathy to his wife, children and the He used language that was very blunt. Fine Gael Party on his passing. His achievements have been well documented but apart from his As Senator Ross said, he took a very cour- political expertise, which was legendary, what ageous position on the Criminal Justice Bill 1983, emerges from many of the tributes passed to him a position which was motivated entirely by con- at the time of his death was the fact that he was viction. There were no pluses in it on a personal a man of great charm and humour. They were or political level for Sea´n O’Leary. It was an issue characteristics which are also worth recording. in which he believed strongly and therefore he I was interested to read that he stood in a took the position. general election before he became a member of He was all set to take a similar position on the Cork Corporation and that he met his wife at the national lottery at a later stage because he count in Cork in Jack Lynch’s constituency. Per- believed it was a profoundly wrong concept. This haps on top of all the other reasons for not having was a view I shared with perhaps less passion. electronic voting there is another one there in The House was so enthusiastic on that issue we that—— could not muster the numbers to call a vote and therefore he was spared the indignity of being Ms O’Rourke: Romance. expelled from Fine Gael for a second time. The then Minister of State, who is now a senior Mr. Dardis: ——romance can blossom at the member of the Fine Gael Front Bench will long counts in cold halls around the country. The remember for a long time the interrogation he best thing I can do is read what Garret FitzGerald got about the ins and outs of the national lottery said in his autobiography which sums up the man from a man from his own benches who was both very well. a formidable politician and lawyer. The director of elections was Sea´n O’Leary, Ms O’Rourke: Who was it? a Cork accountant and barrister who had him- self been a Da´il candidate and whose qualities Mr. Ryan: It was Deputy Jim O’Keeffe who of warmth and vitality, political gut instinct, suffered at the hands of a very capable and natural authority, toughness and joie de vivre, occasionally sharp tongue. together with his excellent relationship with our national organiser, Peter Prendergast, Sea´n O’Leary was an extraordinarily warm equipped him ideally for his task. man with a strong sense of social justice. Injustice in politics and society annoyed him. The letter to All his characteristics are summarised in that sen- which Senator Ross referred was a manifestation tence. I do not think I can add to that. of that genuine sense of unhappiness with injus- He as described in Who’s Who as the Eminence tice. He correctly identified that injustice begins grise of the Fine Gael Party. That is somewhat with injustice to those who are seen to be least harsh and is not fair. He was much more than deserving of sympathy and moves from there to that and a much more rounded character. Refer- others. That is what concerned him. ence has been made to his observations about the 1581 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1582 courts and the fact that the higher courts should I have also received notice from Senator Browne not be populist. There is a message there that we of the following matter: as well as the courts can take to heart. I wish to The need for the Minister for Arts, Sport and be associated with all the comments that have Tourism to provide funding to be allocated to been made and to extend our sympathy. New Oak boy’s soccer club, Burrin Road, Carlow under the National Lottery sports club An Cathaoirleach: I also wish to be associated fund. with the tributes to the late Sea´n O’Leary who, as already stated, was nominated by the then I have also received notice from Senator Taoiseach, Garret FitzGerald, to be a Member of O’Meara of the following matter: the 15th and 17th Seanad. I had the pleasure of The need for the Minister for Enterprise, serving with him in those Seanad. He was a great Trade and Employment to have the IDA bring debater, being articulate and passionate. Many investors to north Tipperary as no site visits by debates were enriched and enlivened by his con- investors have taken place in 2005 and 2006, tributions and the independence of his thoughts. while significant job losses have occurred in His political expertise with percentages and the constituency. quotas was recognised by the Fine Gael Party and led to his appointment as director of elections. I have also received notice from Senator Coghlan His untimely death is a loss to the Fine Gael of the following matter: Party, the Judiciary and Irish society in general. I The need for the Minister for Health and extend my sincere sympathy to his wife, Mary, Children to ensure the availability of some of son, daughters and extended family on their sad St. Finan’s Hospital lands, Killarney, when it loss. closes, for social and affordable housing, together with some voluntary social care and Members rose. sporting purposes.

Business of Seanad. I have also received notice from Senator Ross of the following matter: An Cathaoirleach: I have notice from Senator Paddy Burke that, on the motion for the The need for the Minister for Transport to Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to initiate moves to provide a train service from raise the following matter: Dublin to Donegal. I regard the matters raised by the Senators as The need for the Minister for Communi- suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I cations, Marine and Natural Resources to have selected the matters raised by Senators provide the option to voluntary salmon fishing Paddy Burke, Kitt and Norris and they will be clubs for a minimum seven-year renewable taken at the conclusion of business. Senators lease on waters where licences currently exist. Ulick Burke, Browne, O’Meara, Coghlan and I have also received notice from Senator Kitt of Ross may give notice on another day of the the following matter: matters they wish to raise. The need for the Minister for Education and Science to provide approval for a new primary Order of Business. school to replace the sub-standard buildings at Ms O’Rourke: The Order of Business is No. 1, St. Catherine’s national school, Aughrim, Balli- a motion regarding a sessional order as agreed by nasloe, County Galway. the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to I have also received notice from Senator Norris be taken without debate; No. 2, a referral motion of the following matter: whereby the subject matter of motion No. 15 on today’s Order Paper is being referred to the Joint The need for the Minister for Health and Committee on the Environment and Local Children to intervene in order to secure the Government for consideration — the proposed rights of independent pharmacists to be rep- new regulations will amend the exempted resented by their union, the Irish Pharmaceut- development provisions of the planning and ical Union, in the current round of fee nego- development regulations 2001 to encourage the tiations. uptake of cleaner and cheaper energy from small scale renewable sources in the home, and these I have also received notice from Senator Ulick proposed changes to the planning and develop- Burke of the following matter: ment regulations will facilitate a significant The need for the Minister for Education and increase in the contribution of renewable energy Science to indicate a timeframe in which she technologies to meeting Ireland’s energy needs will enter into discussions with the patrons of and in renewable electricity generating capacity Seamount College, Kinvara, County Galway — to be taken without debate; No. 3, a referral with a view to ensuring that provision is made motion whereby the subject matter of motion No. for the enrolment of first year students in 16 on today’s Order Paper is being referred to September. the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, 1583 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1584

[Ms O’Rourke.] There is much debate on the airways at present Defence and Women’s Rights for consideration about sentencing policy, prison reform and res- — the purpose of the proposal is to strengthen torative justice. I am delighted the pilot studies in the capacity of the Union and the member states Nenagh and Tallaght were successful and that the to combat transnational organised crime — to be Ta´naiste has set up a committee to examine the taken without debate; No. 4, the Broadcasting possibility of expanding restorative justice in (Amendment) Bill 2006 — Order for Second place of prison sentences. These issues need to be Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the con- debated in the House. We are the people who clusion of the Order of Business until 5 p.m. with will be required to introduce the legislation on the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed restorative justice and prison reform. We need to 15 minutes each and those of other Senators not consider the advice and information we are to exceed ten minutes each; No. 23, motion No. being given. 36 to be taken from 5 p.m. until 7 p.m. Mr. Ryan: I fully support Senator Brian Mr. B. Hayes: I move amendment No. 1 to the Hayes’s proposal which has been seconded. I Order of Business: would love an hour in which to explain how two parties can put together a collection of intelligent “That following the conclusion of the Order and simple proposals, none of which requires of Business a period of one hour shall be set rocket science, to reform the health service. This aside for statements on health”. is something the Government has failed to do for The Seanad has not met for approximately eight ten years. weeks. The important issue throughout the coun- try is the chronic problems in the health service Ms O’Meara: Hear, hear. as highlighted yesterday in St. James’s Hospital, where 20 surgical operations had to be cancelled Mr. Ryan: It is a simple set of proposals put due to the lack of bed and theatre space. Last forward by our two parties which has a very sim- Sunday the Ta´naiste said, with his chest puffed ple start by which a plan is made and the out, that the Government would not be mud resources are then allocated. What the present wrestled on the issue of negotiating the contract Government did was to first allocate lots of with consultants. By 5 p.m. the next day the only resources only to discover later that a plan was person who was mud-wrestling was the Taoiseach needed. It is now trying to retrofit a plan to by his evasive and less than supportive comments resources. One must think before one starts. It is on the Minister for Health and Children. terrible that so much has been wasted and that It is important that we debate this issue today, the people of this country are confused as to how in the context of the three solemn commitments the richest or one of the richest countries in given by the Government four and a half years Europe or in the world can have one of the worst ago. It promised 200,000 additional medical cards, health services. This House needs to repeatedly which have not been delivered, 2,000 hospital debate the issue of health because otherwise the beds, which also have not been delivered, and no Government will forget about it. The Govern- waiting lists for elective surgery by 2004, also not ment would prefer to have the Ta´naiste marching delivered. Given the circumstances in St. James’s up and down a few hills to proclaim some law and Hospital yesterday and the continued speculation order speech. The health of our citizens is the and controversy about the site for a national chil- main concern of our citizens and it ought to be dren’s hospital, we must debate these matters the main concern of this House. today. On a few occasions both Senator Ross and I have mentioned in this House the submission on Dr. Henry: I second the proposed amendment the national development plan made to the to the Order of Business. As somebody who Government by the US Chambers of Commerce attended the Irish Hospital Consultants Associ- in Ireland whose members employ more than ation’s meeting after the Ta´naiste’s mud-wres- 100,000 people in this country. One issue men- tling speech, I must say he is a great man with tioned in the submission which should have trans- words and has a great deal of influence on people. fixed Government, but obviously did not, was Could the Leader arrange a debate, as soon as that close to 50% of the companies reported that possible, on the reports of the inspector of prisons their US-based executives were now asking them and those of the visiting committees for the var- not to hold meetings in Ireland because of the ious prisons? The Leader and the House have state of our transport system. According to the attempted to have them debated in the past but submission to Government by the US Chambers the Ta´naiste has little enthusiasm for debating of Commerce in Ireland, this was reported by a them. He said in the House that we cannot debate total of 43% of the companies, not far off half the all the reports. However, we are spending hun- total number. After what has happened to Motor- dreds of millions of euro on reports and, as the ola in Cork, it is easy to imagine a US senior Leader has agreed, reports are of little value if executive being persuaded that this place — we do not examine their content and consider which is impossible to get into and to get around what we can learn from them. — would not be the place they would want to 1585 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1586 sustain. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and the second Chamber exists and that we have Employment, has stated that there is nothing returned today after the Christmas recess. wrong with our competitiveness but that we must be vigilant. Mr. Dardis: Here endeth the broadcast. Everybody wants to beat the drum about wages but I refer to all the other issues, such as the Mr. Finucane: As we face a general election it broadband debacle which is getting worse, not is interesting to note we will be back to using the better. The rural broadband scheme has been old pencils again. The Taoiseach said we wanted abandoned. Eircom is now reverting to the old to get rid of those old pencils. I was surprised to days of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. read in the Official Journal of the European Rather than trying to get prisoners out of jail, Union an advertisement for extra polling booths many politicians will be writing letters on behalf for the country. of people trying to get telephone lines or have Ms O’Rourke: That is good. I love polling their telephones repaired. We thought those days booths. were behind us. Our technological, telecom- munications, information technology and trans- Mr. Finucane: Having seen polling booths in port infrastructure is crumbling. This is the reason operation and the structures involved, I would multinationals under pressure will not choose to have thought local authorities and returning stay here nor will they choose to come here. Parts officers could examine the logic of the require- of the country have not seen even a visit by a ment for extra polling booths to cope with the prospective investor in years because those inves- extra population without resorting to putting an tors cannot get to those places. It is a fact that advertisement in the Official Journal of the Euro- one developer drove 20 miles outside Cork city pean Union. This is ridiculous. and decided not to go any further because he regarded the transport system as being too bad to Dr. Mansergh: I ask for a debate on the consider investing in the area. national development plan which is an excellent We need a proper debate on this country’s and ambitious programme for progress over the attractiveness to investment. Ireland is in decline next ten years—— as an attractive location for investment and this is not to do with wage levels. The debate on this Mr. Finucane: It is a rehash. issue should centre on the 350 well paid, know- ledge-based jobs in Cork which are about to Dr. Mansergh: I would have thought Senator disappear. Ryan, like myself ——

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s case is very An Cathaoirleach: Senator Mansergh—— eloquently made. Dr. Mansergh: I am entitled to ask for a debate. Mr. Leyden: I wish to bring to the attention of the House that if Senators were listening to An Cathaoirleach: Yes. I am not denying the “Morning Ireland” this morning they would be Senator that request. excused for thinking the Seanad was not returning today—— Dr. Mansergh: I thought Senator Ryan, like myself, would be availing of the important and An Cathaoirleach: The House will not debate excellent improvements in communications from what was said on “Morning Ireland”. Has the the south of this country, both by road and by rail but he is not here to confirm this. Senator a question on the Order of Business? Mr. B. Hayes: It is reheated porridge. Mr. Ryan: I was listening to the leader of the Labour Party. Dr. Mansergh: The second point on which it would be good to have a debate is the subject of Mr. Leyden: In my view the House was slighted developments in Northern Ireland. We all wel- by the journalists on “Morning Ireland”. They come the decision of Sinn Fe´in to participate in should know that this is an equal Chamber and and support—— the second Chamber of the Oireachtas. RTE broadcasters should be aware we are returning Mr. Ryan: I wish to inform Senator Mansergh today and that the Broadcasting (Amendment) that I have returned to the Chamber. Bill 2006 is on the Order Paper for today. This House is given excellent coverage by Dr. Mansergh: ——policing, both from the “Oireachtas Report”, by Jimmy Walsh of The point of view that it removes an obstacle to the Irish Times and on local radio. I thank God for operation of democracy, the rule of law and local radio because they give us tremendous power-sharing devolution in the immediate coverage. I hope RTE is listening and that the future, but also because it helps to level the play- journalists involved will be aware in future that ing field as and between the different communi- 1587 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1588

[Dr. Mansergh.] Mr. Norris: Why not? ties in Northern Ireland so that policing is no longer mainly the preserve of one community vis- An Cathaoirleach: The matter will be discussed a`-vis the other. when the House deals with the business in A debate to clarify in our own minds and in the question. minds of others the significance of and reasons for what has happened would be also welcome. Mr. Norris: In that case, as I anticipate that the There is inevitably a lot of hype and partisan Leader will not be able to withdraw the amend- argument on different sides. This is a good ment, I propose that the House deals with No. 34 Chamber in which to coolly analyse both the sig- first. Is that in order? nificance of what has happened and where it is hoped to go in the near future. An Cathaoirleach: That would be in order.

Mr. Norris: I understand Senator Brian Hayes Mr. Norris: I will make such a proposal which I raised the question of the urgent situation in St. encourage Senators to support. The Government James’s Hospital and I wish to support what I states it co-operated with the European Parlia- understand he said. The situation is extremely ment’s investigation to the fullest possible extent. serious. It would be wise if the Minister were able It did not do so. to come into the House to explain how this was arrived at and how it can be resolved. I have An Cathaoirleach: The Senator may not make never attacked the Minister for Health and Chil- a speech on the Order of Business. dren, Deputy Harney. She has shown great cour- age in taking this job and I always believed she Mr. Norris: Co-operation is not a one-way should be given time for the policies to take street. If the other party clearly and publicly effect. However, this is critical and urgent. The states the Government did not co-operate and ICU is full. Serious operations which are neces- refused to answer questions, the Government’s sary and vital are being cancelled as we speak. approach cannot be described as one of co-oper- ation. The amendment states the TDIP commit- The ideology behind all these private hospitals tee is under the impression that the Government and the invocation of competition should be directs the work of the Oireachtas. examined. The rubbish we repeatedly hear about competition has damaged the interests of ordi- A Senator: That is not true. nary people. I am not an ideologue but if I were offered a choice between competition and proper Mr. Norris: The amendment refers to the treatment in hospital, like everybody else with his Government having offered full co-operation. or her head screwed on the right way, I would That is a downright lie. It commends the Govern- choose the latter. I am not attacking the Minister ment on its policy of early and proactive engage- for Health and Children, Deputy Harney. I would ment with the US authorities. It did not pursue like her to come to the House because citizens such a policy. are entitled to know the reasons they are not receiving proper treatment. Let us have a proper An Cathaoirleach: The Senator must conclude. national health service in which everybody in the The House cannot debate an individual item on country is covered and let the Government pay the Order of Business. for those who cannot afford cover. I propose a conditional amendment to the Mr. Norris: My final point is that it is per- Order of Business. The Leader is a remarkable, fectly clear—— fine and honourable woman. For this reason, I am very sorry to see the amendment submitted in An Cathaoirleach: The Senator may not make her name and written not by her but the Depart- a final point. I call Senator Dooley. ment of Foreign Affairs. It is a tissue of lies, eva- sions and hypocrisy and unless it is withdrawn, I Mr. Norris: ——that, to the shame of the will propose an amendment to the Order of Busi- Government, aircraft engaged in rendition flights ness that the House instead discuss No. 34 in the were fuelled when returning through Shannon name of the Independents which deals with the Airport. issue addressed in the amendment. I will substantiate my description of the amend- Mr. Dooley: Will the Leader request infor- ment as a tissue of lies. It states that the Govern- mation from the Minister for the Environment, ment “responded urgently from the outset to alle- Heritage and Local Government on proposals by gations of extraordinary rendition” and co- the heritage section of his Department to restrict operated to the fullest extent with the investi- extensions of certain graveyards which are con- gation carried out by a committee of the Euro- sidered by the Department or deemed to be of pean Parliament. That is not true. archaeological, ecclesiastical or monastic signifi- cance? There is an age old practice in rural areas An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s amendment is of burying families together. Unfortunately, not in order. guidelines emanating from the Department are 1589 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1590 making it impossible for local graveyard commit- that the House discuss this matter as soon as tees to extend older graveyards in line with possible. expectations. This has created considerable annoyance among elderly people who had Ms Tuffy: Will the Leader arrange a debate intended to be buried on the grounds in which with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage their forebears were buried. People are con- and Local Government, Deputy Roche, on the cerned that regulations are now off the wall. definition of the phrase “affordable house”? The These kinds of restrictive practices should not be Minister was quoted the other day indicating that allowed to continue. Will the Leader invite the an affordable house is one which costs approxi- Minister to the House to discuss this important mately 80% of its market value. The figure has matter? varied, increasing from 50% to 60%, then to 75%, and more recently to 80%. Slapping on a Mr. U. Burke: The proposal by the Department label of “affordable house” has created a new of Education and Science to transfer responsi- way for developers to make a mint on the backs bility for dealing with under-performance by of home buyers. The House must discuss this teachers at primary and secondary level from issue as a matter of urgency. school inspectors to boards of management is a mistake. Boards of management at primary, Mr. MacSharry: Will the Leader arrange a vocational educational committee and voluntary debate on the environment? As Senators will be secondary school level have different aware, the United Nations will launch an responsibilities. important report on global warming later this School inspectors’ involvement in schools is week. Even President Bush is beginning to greater than ever. The number of inspectors has acknowledge that this is the greatest single issue increased and whole school evaluations are being facing the world. carried out. The inspectorate also carries out Ireland needs to play its part in tackling global more subject examinations in schools than in the warming and the Houses of the Oireachtas could past. lead by example. A phenomenal amount of paper Devolving responsibility for addressing teacher is wasted in the Houses every day. The large under-performance to boards of management at number of reports, agendas and information sup- local level will have serious consequences, plied in paper format and unsolicited could be especially given that members of boards are provided via e-mail. Senators are sufficiently lit- essentially volunteers. Placing the onerous erate in information technology to be able to use responsibility for removing a teacher from a e-mail. Instead of filling bags and bins with unsol- school on members of boards is wrong. It could icited reports, few of which we will read beyond cause the individuals in question embarrassment the executive summary, an e-mail facility would and create unnecessary dissension in small com- allow us to view reports once alerted that they munities. have become available and, if necessary, print The Department has paid scant regard to sup- them out. We could begin to lead by example by porting teachers who experience difficulties. They having a general debate on the report which will are not given sufficient time off to engage in in- be launched later this week. service training or retraining or to allow them to reinvigorate their enthusiasm in subject areas. Mr. J. Phelan: I concur fully with Senator The Minister should drop her proposal and have MacSharry’s last point. Reports are available for her Department devise a fair mechanism for deal- Members in hard-copy format in the Oireachtas ing with this issue. Will the Leader request the Library, but there is a scandalous waste of paper Minister to address this issue as a matter of in that regard. I also agree with previous speakers urgency? who have sought a debate on the health service. I hope the Government will accede to the request Mr. Daly: The Leader will be aware that sub- for an hour to discuss it today, with particular stantial funding has been promised to increase emphasis on the siting of the new national chil- significantly subvention payments for patients dren’s hospital. The issue was raised before and elderly people in nursing homes and Christmas by a number of Senators, including hospitals. It is proposed that the enhanced sub- myself. We should have a full discussion on the vention will be paid from the beginning of this reasons behind the decision that was taken. year. The House should ask the Department to People should be allowed to express their views indicate how quickly the new system will be intro- on the matter in the Chamber. duced and how it proposes to proceed. Senator Ryan requested a debate on the Many individuals and families are under severe national development plan, with particular financial pressure owing to the current low rate emphasis on infrastructure and broadband. Last of subvention. It is important, therefore, that the week, we saw that the Government has aban- payment is enhanced and the increase backdated doned the rural broadband scheme, so it would as soon as possible. A way must be found to be opportune to know what its future plans are prevent institutions from increasing charges in in this regard. What has been promised up to now anticipation of the increased subvention. I ask has not been delivered upon by the Government. 1591 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1592

[Mr. J. Phelan.] out that we have abandoned our broadband prog- Many Senators in rural areas are in a similar posi- ramme, which is true, foreign investment will tion to me and know that businesses cannot get cease to come here with the same enthusiasm as broadband connections. Last week, I was alarmed before. It is a cause of immense embarrassment to learn that the port of Waterford — a few miles to many people in the IDA and elsewhere when from where I live in Kilkenny — does not have they must explain to multinational organisations broadband connectivity. That is a shocking that they will give them the 12.5% corporation situation. If that is the case in south County tax but cannot give them any communication Kilkenny, I am sure a similar situation exists facilities with their home bases around the world. across the country. Broadband is an essential weapon in anybody’s The Leader should ask the Minister for the armoury when it comes to marketing Ireland. We Environment, Heritage and Local Government to should have it in every household. The smugness attend the House to explain his recent announce- with which we accept the investment of American ment on funding for local roads. He has multinationals is being wiped off our faces by the announced a 6% or 7% increase in funding for loss of 350 jobs in Motorola, the possible loss of local authorities for local roads. On the face of it, jobs in Vodafone, and the loss of BUPA. We are that would be welcome were it not for the fact in danger of losing other multinationals. that last year the cost of road-building materials The construction industry, which is the second increased 40%. In real terms therefore it is a huge pillar of the national development plan, is boom- decrease in terms of what work will be carried ing but it is feeding off these multinationals that out on local roads around the country, despite the are paying so much money to those people who razzmatazz surrounding the Minister’s recent can afford the houses that are being built. We announcement. He should attend the House to must provide that infrastructure otherwise the discuss that issue. economy will be in for a difficult time in the years ahead. Mr. Scanlon: I support Senator Daly’s call for a debate on nursing home subventions. A number Mr. Browne: I join with Senator Brian Hayes of families have contacted me, particularly since in calling for a debate on health. We should focus the start of the year, when the cost of nursing on filling vacancies. Clearly, patients are not the home care increased substantially in some cases. centre of attention when it comes to staff on sick There does not seem to have been an increase in leave, retiring or on extended maternity leave. the subvention paid to such families, however. There seems to be no regard for patients within In recent days, I came across an anomaly the HSE. I came across two cases recently arising whereby an elderly person living alone in receipt from the fact that the orthodontist in Carlow- of a social welfare pension is entitled to the living Kilkenny was out. We have been told that it could alone allowance. However, elderly people living be two or three years before people can obtain alone on a pension for which they have worked appointments again. This is crazy. In every other and contributed all their lives, but which is not a walk of life in the private sector, when a tempor- social welfare payment, are not entitled to a living ary or permanent vacancy arises it is filled far alone allowance. We should examine that matter more quickly. It should not take that long in the because such a person has the same financial public sector. I asked the HSE how many vacanc- needs as someone on a social welfare pension. ies currently exist but God knows when I will Sometimes there is not much difference between receive a reply. both pensions. ADHD assessments must be undertaken by an educational psychologist. Students cannot get Mr. Ross: I formally second Senator Norris’s special needs assistance unless they have this amendment to the Order of Business. The fact assessment, yet there is a major shortfall of edu- that there will be two votes on the Order of Busi- cational psychologists. We have a crazy scenario ness, and several more, is indicative of the fact whereby the HSE will pay exam fees of clinical that peace is not breaking out in this House. I psychologists to go abroad, to England for endorse the calls by Senator John Paul Phelan example, to do a doctorate, yet it will not pay for and Ryan for a debate on infrastructure. Senator an educational psychologist to study abroad for a Mansergh also touched on it when he sought a doctorate. Meanwhile, there is a major shortfall debate on the national development plan. As in this area which is crying out to be filled. The Senator Ryan rightly said, we will not have much Minister for Education and Science and the Mini- of a national development plan if we do not have ster for Health and Children should examine the broadband. There is a motion on the Order Paper issue. Why are the fees of clinical psychologists in the names of all the Independent Senators call- paid, but not those of educational psychologists? ing for a far more robust and committed attitude I am sure educational psychologists will gladly to broadband. work in the Irish educational system for a few Senator Ryan and I may approach this matter years afterwards in return for their fees. One lady from different angles, but I agree with virtually in Carlow is facing a bill of £12,000 sterling per everything he said. Ireland is becoming a danger- year to study for a doctorate in England. If she ous place for foreign investment. If the word goes did it in Ireland it would take three years, 1593 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1594 whereas it takes only a year in England. If the interchange fees for the issuing of credit cards. I overseas fees were reimbursed, we could have am sure interchange fees exist in many European educational psychologists two years earlier in our countries although not in others. I understand the own system, which we badly need. Polish Government accused the banks of acting as a cartel in this area. If it happens in Poland, I Ms O’Meara: I support the motion for a debate assume it happens in Ireland also. on health this afternoon. This critical issue has I raise this issue because of the major increase become worse over the Christmas recess. The in credit card usage which was outlined in a publi- public cannot understand why, after almost ten cation today but even more so because the Euro- years in office, the Government has failed to pean Commission today issued a solve the accident and emergency crisis, which 4 o’clock report which suggested inquiries has worsened. The situation in St. James’s should take place because it would Hospital is a classic example. Only last week, appear a cartel exists among banks with regard to Limerick Regional Hospital ran out of trolleys the issuing of credit cards. Not necessarily this and people had to be treated in ambulances in the week but in the coming months we should have a car park. That indicates how the system is failing. debate in the House on the issuing of credit cards There is, however, total resistance in Govern- by banks. Much information will become avail- ment circles to the idea that the system needs able to us in the coming weeks and a decision will more beds and better management. There is also be reached by the Commission in June. the debacle over the children’s hospital in Crumlin. In addition, fewer and fewer people Ms O’Rourke: Senator Brian Hayes put for- now qualify for much needed medical cards. ward an amendment to the Order of Business These are only some examples of how the which was seconded by Senator Henry. This Government is completely failing in the health amendment will be put to the House in due sector. course. As I said, while I cannot pluck the Mini- We also need a debate on jobs and the econ- ster from where she is at present, the Senator is omy, which should be organised as soon as pos- entitled to put down an amendment and it will be sible. I do not mind if the debate focuses on the voted on. national development plan. However, there is Senator Henry also called for a debate on the major concern about the future of multinationals report of the inspector of prisons, which we are in this country and how the IDA is operating. trying to obtain. The Senator welcomed the North Tipperary has been abandoned by the IDA moves made with regard to restorative justice. and there have been no site visits for more than Senator Ryan called for a debate on the sub- two years. It is simply not interested in north mission by the US Chambers of Commerce in Tipperary. I would like to know the view of the Ireland on the national development plan. He Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment also referred to Motorola. We are all sad about in this regard. What is the policy on foreign direct the situation at Motorola but it had nothing to do investment and what is the responsibility of the with infrastructure or anything of that nature. IDA with regard to all, not just some, of the counties of Ireland? Mr. Ryan: How does the Leader know that?

An Cathaoirleach: That might be a matter for Ms O’Rourke: I read what the chairman of the Adjournment. Motorola said. Mr. Ryan: The Leader should not mind the Ms O’Meara: That is why I put it down as a press release. matter for the Adjournment. An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. The Leader Dr. Mansergh: It is a different story in south to reply without interruption. Tipperary, as the Senator knows. Ms O’Rourke: He said it was a change of Ms O’Meara: It connects with the wider issue strategy on the part of the company. I read this raised by Members of the House. It is an example in a newspaper. of the concerns in one part of the country. It is urgent that we would have a debate on the matter Mr. Ryan: The strategy is to get out of Ireland. of jobs and future investment in infrastructure and broadband, which particularly affects rural Ms O’Rourke: The Senator sought a debate on areas, and in particular where that investment is declining investment in Ireland. The last report going. of the IDA showed an increase in investment in Ireland. I do not know why Members are trying Mr. Quinn: With so many items of serious con- to downplay our country. It is serious that cern, it seems wrong at this stage to raise an issue Members are in that mode but I suppose they like banking, but there is a great need to have a must do something. debate on banking. The Polish competition auth- ority last week banned the use of what we call Mr. B. Hayes: That is just spin. 1595 Order of 31 January 2007. Business 1596

Ms O’Rourke: Senator Leyden raised a matter Senator Daly raised the enhanced subvention which I thought was ironic. I will not mention the which is to be paid to people in nursing homes. programme involved because the Cathaoirleach He hopes nursing home charges will not increase. does not want me to do so. The programme told Senator Tuffy referred to affordable housing. I how the other House was coming back and would agree with the Senator that the definition of debate legislation on prisons. This House is back affordable housing is very loose and hard to pin in session and will debate the Broadcasting down. (Amendment) Bill. I thought it was ironic the Senator MacSharry warned about global warm- programme did not mention this, as the debate ing. He stated the Oireachtas could set an will affect journalism. example by not producing so much waste paper every day when the information is available in the Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. Oireachtas Library and on e-mail. It is not neces- sary that the information be printed in such vast Ms O’Rourke: I found it quite annoying. quantities. Senator Finucane stated that we need more Senator John Paul Phelan referred to the polling booths, which we do, as well as more national children’s hospital. Many Members have people going to them. However, if one seeks that referred to a “debacle” in this regard. There is no type of material, there are procurement laws in debacle. The site has been chosen and we will place and it is necessary to put an advertisement move ahead with the project. in the Official Journal of the European Union. That is why it exists. I am sure the Senators would Mr. B. Hayes: There is significant controversy. welcome new polling booths and many people Mr. Browne: Tell that to the Taoiseach. going to them. An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. Mr. Finucane: We will welcome new voters. Ms O’Rourke: They talk about politics—— Ms O’Rourke: Senator Mansergh praised the excellent road and rail connections between Cork Mr. B. Hayes: The Leader should not under- and Dublin and the improvements to them. He mine doctors like this. also welcomed Sinn Fe´in’s commitment on policing, which this House should affirm. What Ms O’Rourke: If we are in favour of children has happened is quite stunning. I am struck by getting the very best of care, we should move the generosity of the concept and its execution. ahead with building the hospital. The potential is huge. Nobody wants to paint any- one else into a corner but I hope the myriad of Mr. B. Hayes: There is a different view. voices on the DUP side will eventually become one voice of acceptance, and soon, not in years, Mr. Browne: There are mixed signals. The as a man stated this morning. We have got this Leader should tell this to the Taoiseach. far. It is a stunning development in its generosity and we should pay due regard to it and hold a Ms O’Rourke: Why? The Senator wants us to debate on Northern Ireland, as Senator keep jumping from one site to another. Mansergh stated. Mr. Browne: The Taoiseach is confused. Senator Norris referred to the situation at St. James’s Hospital. He proposed that the Govern- An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. The Leader ment amendment be replaced by No. 34, which without interruption. was seconded by Senator Ross. Senator Dooley raised the matter of the exten- Ms O’Rourke: Senator Scanlon raised the issue sion of graveyards and sought information from of nursing homes. He stated that if a person is in the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and receipt of a private pension and is living alone, he Local Government. The Senator stated that there or she should be just as eligible for the living are often archaeological objections to such exten- alone allowance as those on social welfare. I sions. It would be a suitable matter for the agree. Adjournment, if the Senator would put it down Senator Ross seconded Senator Norris’s pro- as such. posal. He also called for a debate on broadband. Senator Ulick Burke stated it is now the He stated Ireland is becoming a dangerous place responsibility of boards of management to judge for foreign investment. That is not the case. The the competence or incompetence of serving figures are available but people do not want to teachers in their particular schools, and that the believe them. inspectors who were in charge of that matter are Senator Browne referred to the filling of vac- no longer so. The shape of boards of management ancies in the health services, particularly with has changed and the Teaching Council has been regard to ADHD and the length of the waiting established, which is an excellent method of period to be seen by an educational psychologist, adjudging proficiency. who can do a course in the UK in one year that 1597 Order of Business: 31 January 2007. Motion 1598 would take three years here. Perhaps the course members from the Northern Ireland Legislative here is better but it is a very serious matter. Assembly in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. I Senator O’Meara called for a debate on the welcome them to the House and hope they will health services. She stated that a hospital in have fruitful discussion here. Limerick ran out of trolleys and that the system needs more beds. The Senator also spoke about Order of Business (Resumed). the future of multinationals in Ireland. An Cathaoirleach: There are two amendments Senator Quinn called for a debate on banking, to the Order of Business. Senator Brian Hayes particularly the cartel which seems to appertain moved an amendment proposing that statements with regard to credit cards. We will endeavour to on the health service be taken for one hour on have that debate. the conclusion of the Order of Business. Is the amendment being pressed? Visit of Northern Ireland Delegation. Mr. B. Hayes: Yes. An Cathaoirleach: Before proceeding, I wish to inform the House we have a delegation of SDLP Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 17; Nı´l, 31.

Ta´

Bradford, Paul. Hayes, Brian. Browne, Fergal. Henry, Mary. Burke, Paddy. Norris, David. Burke, Ulick. O’Meara, Kathleen. Coghlan, Paul. Phelan, John. Coonan, Noel. Quinn, Feargal. Cummins, Maurice. Ross, Shane. Feighan, Frank. Ryan, Brendan. Finucane, Michael.

Nı´l

Brady, Cyprian. MacSharry, Marc. Brennan, Michael. Mansergh, Martin. Cox, Margaret. Minihan, John. Daly, Brendan. Mooney, Paschal C. Dardis, John. Morrissey, Tom. Dooley, Timmy. Moylan, Pat. Feeney, Geraldine. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Fitzgerald, Liam. O’Brien, Francis. Glynn, Camillus. O’Rourke, Mary. Hanafin, John. Ormonde, Ann. Hayes, Maurice. Phelan, Kieran. Kenneally, Brendan. Scanlon, Eamon. Kett, Tony. Walsh, Jim. Kitt, Michael P. Walsh, Kate. Leyden, Terry. White, Mary M. Lydon, Donal J.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Cummins and Henry; Nı´l, Senators Minihan and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost. the Senators dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Seanad. An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, that No. Amendment declared lost. 23, motion No. 34, be taken before No. 1. Order of Business agreed to. Question put: “That the amendment be made”. Order of Business: Motion. Senators: Vo´ ta´il. Ms O’Rourke: I move: An Cathaoirleach: Will the Senators claiming a That the practice of calling the Leader of the division please rise? House to reply to the Order of Business no later than 40 minutes after the proposal of the Senators Norris, Quinn and Henry rose. Order of Business shall be continued until the Easter recess. An Cathaoirleach: As fewer than five Members have risen, I declare the amendment lost. In accordance with Standing Order 54 the names of Question put and agreed to. 1599 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 31 January 2007. Second Stage 1600

Planning and Development Regulations 2007: Radio Telefı´sE´ ireann, the Broadcasting Com- Motion. mission of Ireland and Teilifı´s na Gaeilge, to ´ Ms O’Rourke: I move: confer power subject to licence on Teilifısna Gaeilge, to amend the Broadcasting Authority That the proposal that Seanad E´ ireann Acts 1960 to 2001 and certain other enactments approves the following Regulations in draft: and to provide for related matters. The Planning and Development Regu- lations 2007, Ms O’Rourke: I move: “That Second Stage be taken today.” copies of which were laid in draft form before Seanad E´ ireann on 25th January, 2007, be Question put and agreed to. referred to the Joint Committee on the Envir- onment and Local Government in accordance Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: Second with paragraph (1) (Seanad) of the Orders of Stage. Reference of that Committee, which, not later than 20th February, 2007, shall send a message Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read to the Seanad in the manner prescribed in a Second Time.” Standing Order 67, and Standing Order 69(2) shall accordingly apply. Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. N. Dempsey): The Bill Question put and agreed to. before the House today has two principal objec- tives, the first being to amend the public service Council Framework Decision on Organised remit of RTE to allow it to broadcast to Irish Crime: Motion. communities living outside the island of Ireland. The second is to amend the Broadcasting Act Ms O’Rourke: I move: 2001 to allow for the development of digital ter- That the proposal that Seanad E´ ireann restrial television and digital radio services in approves the exercise by the State of the option Ireland. I propose to address each objective in or discretion provided by Article 1.11 of the turn. Treaty of Amsterdam to take part in the adop- First, I will address the proposed amendment tion of the following proposed measure: relating to broadcasting abroad. RTE’s public a proposal for a Council Framework service remit is set out in sections 16 and 17 of Decision on the fight against organised the Broadcasting Authority Act 1960 and section crime, 28 of the Broadcasting Act 2001. Section 28(1) of the 2001 Act provides that the a copy of which proposed measure was laid before Seanad E´ ireann on 15th June, 2006, be national television and sound broadcasting referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, service required to be maintained by the Auth- Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights in ority under section 16 of the Act of 1960 shall accordance with paragraph (1) of the Orders of have the character of a public service, continue Reference of that Committee, which, not later to be a free-to-air service and be made avail- than 20th February, 2007, shall send a message able, in so far as it is reasonably practicable, to to the Seanad in the manner prescribed in the whole community on the island of Ireland Standing Order 67, and Standing Order 69(2) and the Authority shall have all such powers as shall accordingly apply. are necessary for or incidental to that purpose. As such, RTE’s statutory mandate does not Question put and agreed to. extend to the provision of television services to Irish communities living outside the island of Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: Order for Ireland. Second Stage. Section 28(8) of the 2001 Act limits the use by Bill entitled an Act to make further pro- RTE of public funds drawn from television vision in relation to Broadcasting, for that pur- licence fee income to its public service remit. As pose to make further provision in relation to a consequence RTE may not use the proceeds of the supply of programme material for the pur- the television licence fee to provide television pose of its being transmitted and the trans- services in Great Britain or elsewhere. Until 2001 mission of such material and related and other a private channel, Tara TV, provided a means for data by digital means, in relation to the combi- the Irish community in parts of Great Britain to nation of such programme material, in relation access some of RTE’s programming. This was not to the broadcasting of certain services to Irish an RTE service but a private company in which communities outside the island of Ireland, in RTE contributed its programming as a means of relation to the discontinuance of certain broad- investment in a commercial venture. Unfortu- casting services transmitted by analogue nately, Tara Television did not manage to attract means, to confer additional functions on the sufficient revenues and ceased to broadcast in Commission for Communications Regulations, 2001. 1601 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 31 January 2007. Second Stage 1602

The report of the task force on policy regarding Marine and Natural Resources to direct the RTE emigrants, presented to the Minister for Foreign authority to maintain a special account of its use Affairs in August 2002, noted that the issue of of public funding regarding the provision of the contact with Ireland and the desire for infor- new television service. While the Bill is just the mation about contemporary Ireland is critical for first step in the process of getting this service on Irish communities abroad. The loss of Tara TV air, it is an important step. The issue is dear to was greatly regretted by many Irish people in the hearts of many in the Irish community in Great Britain, particularly the elderly. Members Great Britain and I commend the efforts of Irish of this House, including me, have relatives in the community organisations in Great Britain and the UK who miss the service and have contacted Deputies and Senators who worked on their public representatives about it. The task force behalf in promoting this issue. recommended developing the role of television as I now propose to consider the elements of the a contact point for the Irish abroad and making Bill that deal with digital terrestrial television, funding available for the provision of such a DTT, and digital radio broadcasting. The roll-out service. With a view to implementing this recom- of DTT in Ireland is imperative in ensuring the mendation the Government agreed that the draft continued availability of free-to-air Irish public general scheme of the broadcasting Bill should broadcasting to Irish television viewers. Satellite, include provision to amend the existing public cable and MMDS will offer extensive and differ- service remits of RTE and Teilifı´snaGaeilgeto entiated services to the Irish consumer into the allow them to develop broadcasting services for future. However, none of these platforms will Irish communities abroad. It also agreed that provide the near universal, free-to-air digital public funds could be deployed for such a pur- offering regulated under Irish law that DTT can pose. Given the scale and scope of the draft provide. Given changes in technology, analogue general scheme of the broadcasting Bill, and terrestrial transmission will become obsolete over ongoing work under the e-Consultation initiative, a short period, particularly as most European the Government has decided to extract and pro- countries move to digital provision. DTT is a gress this small element by means of the Bill technology upgrade necessary to maintain free- before the House. This follows requests from to-air availability of Irish television broadcasting Members of both Houses. into the future. Regarding television service level, Sections 3, 14 and 15 outline the legislative DTT will allow for the provision of more chan- amendments necessary to affect this change. nels and services to citizens. New and enhanced Section 3 amends section 16 of the 1960 Act to Government and public services may be provided require the RTE authority to provide a television across DTT, and possibilities will be created for service to Irish communities outside of the island additional private sector investment and product of Ireland which is representative of the prog- offerings. ramme schedules of the existing public service Current estimates indicate that approximately channels RTE 1, RTE 2 and TG4. While ulti- 29% of TV licence households use analogue free- mately a matter for RTE, it is likely that the prog- to-air terrestrial television only, and that up to ramme service provided will consist primarily of 90% of households use analogue free-to-air ter- domestic programming commissioned or pro- restrial television on at least one television set. duced by RTE and Teilifı´s na Gaeilge. Section 3 The future roll-out of DTT will be particularly also places a statutory duty on Teilifı´s na Gaeilge important for these households in providing a to supply some of its programming to RTE for viable alternative to analogue television with the purposes of the new service at a level to be increased quality and range of broadcasting agreed by the two public service broadcasters. services. It will also serve to meet the require- The provision is intended to define such supply ment that all TV licence holders will continue to as being of the nature of a public service duty receive public service broadcasting on a free-to- rather than an arms length commercial air basis. arrangement. I am conscious of the need for Ireland to keep Section 14 amends section 28(8) of the 2001 ahead of developments in digital broadcasting Act to allow RTE to use public funds drawn from across the EU. With this in mind, I launched my television licence fee income for the purposes of Department’s digital terrestrial television pilot providing the new television service. Section 14 project in August. This will encourage stake- also amends section 28(10) to require the RTE holder and public interest in DTT and bring authority to report to the Minister on its use of momentum to the development of DTT in public funding for such a purpose. Members may Ireland. The pilot project, which is set to run until express views on whether direct Exchequer pay- 2008, is to provide insight into the issues associ- ments should be made rather than using licence ated with the roll-out of a national DTT system fees revenue. I look forward to hearing the views and the potential impact on the analogue tele- of Members during the debate. Although the Bill vision network. does not provide for it at present an amendment Digital transmission is more efficient than ana- could be introduced to effect this. logue transmission with regard to spectrum-plan- Section 15 amends section 32 of the 2001 Act ning. A move to DTT and a subsequent analogue to empower the Minister for Communications, switch off will free up spectrum that can be made 1603 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 31 January 2007. Second Stage 1604

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] A similar process will be run by the BCI on the available for additional broadcasting or telecoms allocation of sound broadcasting multiplexes for applications. The release of additional spectrum Digital Audio Broadcasting, DAB. Although is a key consideration in the move towards digital DAB is not as well-established across the EU as broadcasting across Europe. While demand for digital terrestrial television, it has been estab- additional spectrum is not as significant a factor lished successfully in the UK. RTE is currently in Ireland as it is across Europe, Ireland wishes running a DAB trial which will allow issues to, and will be expected to, plan for the use of around a national roll-out to be explored. In that spectrum in an internationally compatible way. context, this Bill allows for the establishment of The European Commission has suggested 2012 as DAB multiplexes and provides a model for a target date for switch-off of analogue services. licensing by the BCI of DAB in the future. Consequently, there is a pressing need to publish With regard to the specifics of the Bill, section amending legislation in order to facilitate the 1 provides for the short title, collective citation, activities that will lead to analogue switch-off. construction and commencement, which are stan- The DTT elements of the Bill amend one part dard provisions in any legislation. Section 2 pro- of the Broadcasting Act 2001. The basic policy vides for interpretation and definitions for a objectives underpinning the 2001 Act remain in number of terms used throughout the Bill. place. The licensing model set out in the Broad- Section 3 provides for the RTE authority to casting Act 2001 required an all or nothing establish and maintain multiplexes, and it makes response from the market which was not attract- provision to ensure that the RTE and TG4 chan- ive and proved to be unworkable. The proposed nels are carried on the first multiplex. It also legislation seeks to establish a more scaleable ensures that consideration will be given to the model which allows public service broadcasters to carriage of TV3 on the DTT platform in the event migrate to DTT and private sector operations to that measures under section 4 do not bring this seek DTT multiplex licences as they see fit. about. It provides that TG4 and TV3 may make Without amended legislation in place, the DTT payments to the authority in the event that the pilot project currently being run by my Depart- authority carries these channels on a multiplex. ment would come to an end in 2008 with no Section 4 outlines the functions of the Broad- further basis for DTT roll-out. It is essential to casting Commission of Ireland with regard to ensure continuity for parties who wish to further arranging contracts with multiplex contractors to develop commercial services on the DTT plat- provide additional multiplexes of programming. form. This Bill offers a degree of flexibility in the The BCI will be required to ensure compliance take-up of multiplexes which will prove more by contractors with the provisions of this Act. It attractive to private sector operators than pre- also sets out the conditions to allow for provision vious legislation. The proposed framework also of the analogue commercial licensee — TV3 — puts in place a mechanism to implement analogue services on the DTT platform, and for any switch-off, which has not been developed before. Northern Ireland service that could be designated Under the Bill it is proposed that six mul- for carriage in the future. tiplexes or frequencies would be dedicated to Section 5 provides that the Commission for DTT, allowing for approximately 25 to 30 stan- Communications Regulation, ComReg, is dard television channels. However, flexible allo- required to make available licences for DTT cation of the frequencies thereafter could mean services for both RTE and other multiplex service further DTT multiplex allocations if required by providers. Under this section, ComReg may allo- market players. It is also proposed that the first cate further licences for DTT, to be contracted by multiplex be allocated to RTE and will also con- the BCI, and also other services. It also provides tain TG4, thereby ensuring a foundation level of ministerial powers to make provisions for the use Irish broadcasting services on the DTT platform. of services under section 5 in the event of a TV3, if it so desires, will also be allowed on this declared emergency. particular multiplex. A second multiplex could be Section 6 provides that the Commission for allocated to RTE, subject to consultation. This is Communications Regulation is required to make likely to be for high-definition television, as it available licences both to RTE and other pro- requires more spectrum. viders in a similar arrangement to that of Section The next four multiplexes will be left to open 5 but for digital sound broadcasting. Section 7 competition run by the Broadcasting Commission provides for ComReg to levy fees by regulation of Ireland. It is expected that TV3, as the fourth on various broadcasting licences, including mul- analogue terrestrial licensee, may be on one of tiplex licences. these four multiplexes. The framework will allow Section 8 provides that the BCI should run a for multiplexes to be added as the market competition for the awarding of multiplex con- requires, with spectrum for these four multiplexes tracts, both television and radio, which should be guaranteed. The response from the market in the publicly advertised. The competition can be context of the DTT pilot suggests these mul- initiated by the commission as frequencies tiplexes will be in demand. However, the frame- become available. Under this provision the BCI work will allow for a gradual take-up of mul- has discretion to set the coverage area for any tiplexes over time if that is the market response. multiplex service and services can include 1605 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 31 January 2007. Second Stage 1606 regional and local digital services. In the context which time DTT broadcasts will transmit from of this section I would be interested in hearing the Three Rock site in Dublin and the Clermont the views of Members on whether there should Carn site in County Louth. Although digital tele- be a time limit on the initial competition at least, vision is currently available on a number of plat- in order to ensure the process is concluded sooner forms, such as cable, MMDS and satellite, this is rather than later. Depending on the contribution the first time digital television will be available of Members and the discussion as a whole, we from terrestrial transmitter systems in Ireland. may bring forward amendments if necessary. One of the objectives of the pilot is to intro- Section 9 sets out the criteria to be considered duce the concept of DTT to Ireland and test the by the BCI when awarding contracts to multiplex feasibility of developing a national DTT platform contractors and additional criteria can be added and the attractiveness of digital services. In at the discretion of the BCI where necessary. addition, the pilot will provide an opportunity to Section 10 allows the BCI to set out the terms review the impact of the DTT service on users and conditions for multiplex contracts and also a and to consider issues surrounding a progression number of possible terms and conditions to be towards analogue switch-off. The establishment included. In addition, it provides that the com- of a DTT pilot stakeholders’ group by my mission may suspend or terminate the contract Department has provided a forum within which under certain conditions, that the contractor may stakeholders can raise and discuss issues associ- pay fees to the commission and that each mul- ated with the pilot and long-term DTT strategy. tiplex contract shall be open to inspection by the Key discussions were facilitated with a range of public. public service and commercial broadcasters on Section 11 sets out the provisions to allow con- the issues arising out of participation in the DTT sideration by the Minister for Communications, pilot. This allowed for engagement with set top Marine and Natural Resources of a date for ana- box manufacturers on the issues relating to logue switch-off, having consulted with all rel- assessing and adapting equipment standards for evant stakeholders. It provides for the Minister, the Irish market. Consultation with other private following consideration of a report from the com- sector operators has also taken place on a range mission or the authority, or at any stage, to issue of technical issues involved in DTT. a policy direction in this regard. The Government will play a key role in Sections 12 and 13 give effect to various minor informing citizens of changes taking place as a amendments to the 2001 Broadcasting Act with digital switchover is planned and implemented, regard to DTT and the new licensing model pro- and of the reasons for these changes. Timely posed, in particular electronic programme guides information regarding a switchover date will and the application of BCI codes and rules. There allow people make better informed decisions may be some technical adjustments to some of when purchasing equipment. All stakeholders these sections on Committee Stage. will have a role in informing viewers of the likely Sections 14 and 15 relate to RTE’s public changes. For the viewer, the reception of DTT service remit, to which I referred earlier. Section will involve limited additional costs as a set-top 16 provides for an analogue broadcasting licence box will be required to receive DTT signals for for TG4 after TG4 is separated from RTE on 1 each television. However, Irish viewers will April 2007. Section 17 provides for the repeal of benefit from a roll-out of DTT through a greater sections of the Broadcasting Act 2001 so the new choice of channels and services available free-to- alternative licensing regime can apply. Section 18 air. allows for the Minister’s costs in the admini- This Bill presents an opportunity to ensure the stration of this Act. The Schedule sets out the Irish public continues to have access to new and sections of the Broadcasting Act 2001 that are improved broadcasting services on a universal repealed by section 17, so the new alternative and free to air basis. I believe a national DTT licensing regime can apply. platform is a prerequisite for maintaining and Extensive consultation has taken place on the developing a vibrant and relevant Irish broadcast- proposed legislation with a wide range of public ing sector, while meeting our commitments to the service and private sector bodies, including the EU switch-off target date of 2012. Consequently, BCI and ComReg. In addition, both ComReg and I commend the Bill to the House. the BCI will have a role in the issue around the allocation for spectrum for DTT purposes. My Mr. Finucane: I am indebted to Cathal Goan Department has also been in communication with of RTE who sent me a briefing document on this the European Commission in the context of ana- matter. I was unfamiliar with a great deal of the logue switch-off. terminology used and it gave me a opportunity to The DTT pilot currently being run currently by familiarise myself with it. my Department has provided an opportunity for Fine Gael welcomes the Bill, for what it is, and full engagement with regulators, broadcasters and welcomes the opportunity to discuss broadcasting all other stakeholders on issues concerning DTT in Ireland generally. The Minister stated a new roll-out, both for the pilot and in the future. It is framework will be established to allow for the planned that this pilot will continue over a two- licensing of digital terrestrial television, DTT. year timeframe, which started last August, during The Minister also stated this new framework will 1607 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 31 January 2007. Second Stage 1608

[Mr. Finucane.] We note greater linkages between Irish-born amend the existing framework set out in legis- emigrants and their home country was a key lation, make it more flexible and allow for con- recommendation of the report of the Task Force sideration of the licensing of digital sound broad- on Policy Regarding Emigrants. The provision of casting services in due course. Irish radio and television services to Irish emi- The Minister went on to state that building on grants plays an important role in maintaining the experience of the DTT pilot, Ireland will pro- such connections. The Minister referred to a ceed to upgrade the analogue network to a digital decision by a private broadcaster to no longer terrestrial network. We all support this. Digital provide RTE television. Following that decision, means many more television channels, better pic- RTE TV broadcasts are no longer available to ture and the provision of high definition and Irish emigrants based in the UK. RTE has an all- interactive services. Ireland remit to broadcast within the island of Once DTT is rolled out and viewers swap over Ireland. We support the legislative expansion of to DTT or other digital platforms such as cable, this remit to include the UK. This would give satellite and IPTV, it will be possible to switch off Irish emigrants access to domestic programmes. the analogue transmission network. When will all On a related note, I welcome the decision by of this happen? Will the Minister give us a RTE to use the long wave 252 frequency to relay guarantee that digital will be rolled out in a set RTE Radio 1 to those outside the state. This timeframe? What measures will be put in place to service replaces the “Atlantic 252” pop music ensure no slippage? What infrastructural deficits service, launched in the late 1980s to considerable must be overcome? Where are the bottlenecks? opposition from many who felt the service did I am uncertain about subsequent transmission. nothing to nurture RTE’s reputation as a public Will we have another plethora of masts? Will service broadcaster, providing as it did nothing existing masts be piggy-backed, assuming a mast but pop music and inane chatter all day long. requirement exists? As the Minister and I well I take this opportunity to address an important know, the mast issue tends to be contentious. issue for television audiences, namely, the grow- ing trend by digital and satellite broadcasters to What public education and information process impose special pay-per-view charges for specific will be put in place to let the public know about events, mainly sporting events. This should be DTT? I understand and appreciate the publicity guarded against and I would welcome an assur- aspect. If we roll it out for operation in 2012 it ance from the Minister that RTE and other Irish- would be premature to provide information to based broadcasters will not move into this the public now. However, the public would like dangerous territory during and after the switch to know we are progressing on the digital concept over to digital. and moving away from analogue. I am interested In particular,the Department’s woeful failure to learn what information is available to the to secure free-to-air rights for the Ryder Cup public on what is happening. comes to mind. Information released last year to It is gratifying the Bill covers the important my colleague, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan, showed area of reaching out to the emigrant population. that \15.7 million of taxpayers’ money was spent The way we treated those who, through economic on developing the Ryder Cup project. One would necessity, were forced to leave their country is think with this level of investment the Govern- not something of which we as a nation can be ment should have ensured the event was broad- particularly proud. Fine Gael and the Labour cast on free-to-air television. Instead it ensured Party are committed to implementing the recom- it was only available on subscription TV, which mendation of the Task Force on Policy Regarding reduces access to only one in five households in Emigrants. Despite the report being accepted by the country. the Government in August 2002, many key Legislation was already in place to ensure key recommendations have not been implemented in sporting events such as the Ryder Cup were made full. available on free-to-air television. It would have The progress made since 2002 has come about been a simple matter to add the 2006 Ryder Cup largely as a result of pressure from the Oppo- to this list. Above all, it would have been in the sition parties and various organisations rep- national interest. It was grossly unfair to the Irish resenting the Irish abroad. The task force recom- taxpayer who only saw deferred highlights of the mended the provision of \34 million in official event, diluting the excitement and attraction for government funding for emigrant services by sports fans who could not afford to pay for the 2005. However, a year after this deadline, only privilege of seeing the event live. \12 million was provided for 2006, representing While many people would welcome the devel- slightly more than one third of the amount prom- opments, it is significant that although every ised. Fine Gael and the Labour Party are con- household can get television in one form or scious of the generosity of our emigrants during another and receive the Irish channels free if they the lean years of the 1950s and 1960s, when they wish, more than 250,000 families have free access sent home the equivalent of \3.5 billion to assist only to the Irish channels. This is because they those left behind. It is about time we expressed are outside the areas in which free multichannel our thanks in a tangible form. reception is available, houses cannot be cabled or 1609 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1610 they cannot or do not want to pay satellite or — pending the outcome of such an inves- cable charges. Most of these viewers do not want tigation calls for an immediate ban on to pay future subscriptions to receive what they the use of Irish airports and airspace currently enjoy without additional costs. People by all CIA aircraft. want reassurance that during the changeover This is a well-attended debate, as they say in the from analogue to digital they will not face extra local newspapers. I am sorry I must move this costs. They already pay for a TV licence. RTE motion because there was a developing strong has plans to ensure this will not happen and will consensus in this country about foreign affairs up probably follow the example of the BBC in this to four or five years ago. The period after the regard, which I welcome. collapse of the Soviet Union left a world in which This legislation is urgently required. Based on there seemed to be a real possibility that a current figures, in two years’ time 88,000 families superior set of ethical and moral values would in the Leinster area who receive free multichan- emerge, not in any sanctimonious way or one that nel television, including the Irish and UK smacked of moral superiority. stations, will be cut off instantly when UK Even if we acted as any sensible country would services in the west of England and Wales go digi- and said that in all choices, the interests of tal. A further 115,000 Irish households, including Ireland must come first, we would then hopefully many viewers who receive overspill signal from have begun a debate on what the interests of BBC and TV transmitters in Northern Ireland, Ireland were. I believe E´ amon de Valera first will lose free multichannel reception in a stage expounded on the matter approximately 70 years process as other UK areas are switched off. ago when he stated the interests of a small coun- In conclusion, I wish the Minister well in this try were in stability, international order and an challenge. What is happening is futuristic. I wish international rule of law. I understood this was the BCI and RTE the best of luck in proceeding our position. in this venture. As with everything, including our personal lives, really difficult challenges to our value Debate adjourned. system determine whether or not we believe in things. Sometimes, the fact that we believe in Human Rights Issues: Motion. something does not mean we live up to our stan- Mr. Ryan: I move: dards and we can deviate from them and some- times use ambiguous language. The experience of That Seanad E´ ireann the world after the Second World War was that — noting that the members of Seanad wars achieved very little and mostly did no more E´ ireann have always condemned the than delay an outcome that would otherwise have CIA practice of prisoner rendition; happened and in the process of delaying it, wreaked considerable human damage. — remembering that in spite of this, The second thing I thought we were going to Seanad E´ ireann declined to set up an work at was a very strong commitment to end the inquiry into Irish collusion in such idea of an international arms trade once and for rendition; all. The third thing was that while there might — welcomes the report of the European have been a surviving military superpower or, as Parliament committee set up to the French call it, a hyperpower, the ingrained inquire into European complicity in values of democracy in the United States, which such rendition; the people of that country take for granted, would prevail. They believe they live in the freest — alarmed by the unequivocal criticism country in the world which has always defended of Irish Government practice con- freedom, democracy and human rights every- tained in the report; where in the world. It comes as a shock to many decent Americans to discover the actual record. — agrees with the findings of the com- It is not as bad as others but is far from perfect. mittee that acceptance of diplomatic This was the context in which we operated and assurances is an inadequate way to most of us in this country believed in it although defend human rights; we might have disagreed about details. — regrets the reported failure of the Irish Something has happened over recent years, Government satisfactorily to answer which is why this issue comes up again. We all questions put to it by the commit- experienced the horror of the events of 11 tee and calls on the Government to September 2001, which were horrible, but there comply with the committee’s request have been other horrors. It is not to diminish the to set up an Oireachtas investigation extraordinary trauma of the American people into the manner in which the State has after those events to say that other people in dealt with the issue of rendition at other states at other times have suffered awful domestic, European and international trauma. Aeroplanes have been blown out of the level; and sky by other terrorists. There had been bombings 1611 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1612

[Mr. Ryan.] believed there was a widely held consensus about of public transport in Italy and, I believe, in the unacceptability of these things. Then the all- France before the events of 11 September 2001. party committee disappeared. We discovered the The response to the events of 11 September 2001 European Parliament, to its credit, had set up a ought to have been and should continue to be special committee to investigate this issue and its part of a recognition of the need for states to deal report was published recently. This report was with the use of violence as a political weapon via and ought to be an embarrassment to many of the the targeting, directly or irresponsibly, of civ- governments of Europe. In defence of our own ilians, which is what terrorism is, in my opinion. position, whether by design or by accident, we are The fundamental value we were defending was not as culpable as others. Nobody was kidnapped the value of freedom. There is no freedom with- on our territory. out the rule of law. Freedom is a wonderful con- Nobody is saying we have a scrap of evidence cept that people like me advocated in a vague that any person on the way to or from one of form with a slightly fuzzy head in the 1960s, but these torture chambers was in an aeroplane that it is really only possible under the rule of law. landed in Ireland. Nobody ever suggested that. It The real tragedy, which is the nub of this notion, would be a great pity if the Minister of State were concerns how the country that most vigorously to devote a significant portion of his speech to claims to be the defender of freedom and the rule the fact there is no evidence, because nobody sug- of law scandalously abandons this commitment to gested there was. What we suggested is that aero- facilitate the extraction of information by planes that are manifestly linked with these coercion — I believe this word is now used in its activities were given the full facilities of Shannon draft regulations — but what the rest of us know Airport. When we knew these aeroplanes were to be torture, finds willing allies outside the US being used for such appalling practices, why did and possibly within the EU to facilitate this and, we not attempt to find out if there was forensic in some cases, finds allies outside the EU to evidence proving people had been detained forc- organise and carry out the job of torture for it. ibly on those aeroplanes? We claim to believe in This is where the entire issue of rendition arose. the supremacy of the rule of law. To the citizens of Europe, as they have The committee of the European Parliament expressed their views through Parliament and the that investigated the issue released a draft report. European Parliament, rendition is among the The response — mostly from the Government most grossly offensive activities that a country side — was that it was only a draft report and we which claims to be governed by civilised prin- should await the final report. When the final ciples could practise. It ranks with Abu Ghraib report was produced it was a poor reflection on and the extraordinary tolerance of the vulgar many of the countries of Europe and it contained abuse of the former Iraqi dictator as he was about conclusions which are and ought to be an embar- to be executed. It is among those things that rassment to anybody living here. That is unfortu- people see as offensive to the values we stand for nate for a country that used to stand for the high- and incompatible with them to the extent that no est of principles. The judgment of the committee matter how grave the emergency might be per- is that the Government did not co-operate fully ceived to be, it can never be justified. with it. This is where this issue arose. I give Senator The report stated there was a significant Norris credit for being the first person to raise number of flights. Since then the Government has this issue. He raised it in terms of identified been having fun identifying a couple of flights it flights and aeroplanes and the times of their pass- claimed could not have been what they were ing through Shannon Airport in particular. At the alleged to be. The reason the committee may not beginning, people in this House simply asked have been right about these details is that it was repeatedly for the information that was available not given enough information in time, in the same to be made known. For at least a year, if not way we were refused that information. The infor- longer, obfuscation from the Department of mation was clouded in confusion. Transport was the perpetual response. It was only In another example of confused information, when other investigating agencies outside this two different versions were given of whether the State began to assemble irrefutable information Garda has the right to search an aeroplane. One that there was a dawning of interest, which was version was stated publicly and another privately. not simply found on this side of the House. Sin- Which is true? The Government stated it asked cere Members on the Government side, whose the US authorities if prisoners were transferred sincerity I accept, began to see that there was an through Shannon Airport and they said “No”. All issue of profound moral importance. they ever said is that nobody went through We got to the stage where we agreed on the Shannon Airport. We then discovered a prisoner creation of an all-party committee to investigate in shackles who was a member of the US forces the information that was available. I said at that passed through Shannon Airport. We were told first informal meeting that I wanted an all-party that was a mistake. committee on which there was a Government The Government still chooses to believe the majority because I wanted a report which unsubstantiated, non-evidence based assurances reflected a consensus of views and because I of senior members of the US Administration. The 1613 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1614 committee of the European Parliament con- effective kidnapping of so-called suspects and cluded the Government should not rely on diplo- their incarceration in Guantanamo Bay in the matic assurances as these matters were far too manner in which they are held undermines the serious. It also suggested we should now do what stated value of democracy and offends countries the Human Rights Commission suggested and set around the world for whom democracy is held up an Oireachtas committee to investigate this sacred, including Ireland. matter. If Seanad E´ ireann had done what we had Ireland and the USA have had an excellent asked it to do, and what the House originally relationship at many levels, political, historical needed to do, we would not be subject to that and economic. It pains many people to find them- criticism now. selves in a situation where they are concerned The motion simply repeats what has been said about how the US is conducting itself on this in the committee. The amendment is so extra- issue, and especially how the Government is con- ordinary Senator Norris almost got a fit of apo- ducting itself in this regard. This is an important plexy about it on the Order of Business today. matter for us as a sovereign State. Many people Perhaps he was right because it seems to say all feel we need to assert ourselves in order that our manner of extraordinary things. It commends the values are not undermined by our involvement, Government for its full co-operation with the at whatever level, in the activities of the US work of the committee, even though the Govern- Government in the matter of rendition. That is ment has been criticised by the committee for not why a parliamentary inquiry on behalf of this sov- giving its full co-operation. We now have a ereign State is so important. It is a pity the initial situation straight out of “1984” or perhaps “Alice all-party consensus on this matter and the con- in Wonderland” where the truth is what we say it cerns expressed by Members of this and the other is. The committee stated the Government did not House from all parties was not acted upon but co-operate but the Government is clapping itself allowed to effectively die on the vine. An on the back for its co-operation. It is a great pity Oireachtas inquiry is the best way to restore this motion has to come before the House. It is public confidence in our ability to conduct our an even greater pity the good name of a country affairs on the international stage. If such an that has a courageous record of standing up for inquiry were to take place it could have the effect human rights has been tarnished by the silly inep- of allying public concern on the matter. Let us titude of a Government trying to curry favour have an inquiry because what we have at present with what is now perhaps the most discredited is suspicion and concern and the element of not regime that has presided over the United States knowing. in 50 years. In response to the publication of the draft EU report the Taoiseach asked last week to be shown Ms O’Meara: I second the motion. I support the evidence. We cannot be clear on evidence every word uttered by my colleague, Deputy when we do not have a system where our auth- Ryan. The report last week of the EU committee orities automatically check out what is happening has raised again an issue which is a matter of with CIA planes landing at Shannon. We know great concern to a large body of the public. While the Garda has acted on complaints and, as it may not seem like the most pressing issue to Senator Ryan has said, there has been one inci- some people, it goes to the heart of a matter of dent where a US military officer, under arrest for fundamental importance, how we conduct our- theft, was transferred by use of military personnel selves as a sovereign state, especially in terms of from Kuwait to the US, via Shannon, which was how another state gets to use our facilities during illegal. The ambassador apologised for it but a war. called it a misunderstanding and said that was the It is notable a survey conducted by Amnesty reason for it happening. This has been high- International and Lansdowne Market Research lighted as an example of what we do not know showed that 76% of respondents thought the and what we only find out by accident. Government should be checking US flights There was also the report, in The Irish Times through Shannon. This confirms my view that at in May 2006, that an aircraft technician saw a some level, whether we like it or not, the public detainee shackled to the floor of a US plane at does not fully trust or believe assurances from the Shannon Airport in 2005. This claim was made by US Government or diplomatic sources when they Edward Horgan, a former Army officer and anti- state Shannon Airport is not being used for the war campaigner, and was based on information transportation of prisoners or for rendition he received from a third party. This kind of drip- purposes. drip information adds to public concern and the The use of the word “rendition” is symptomatic sense that at some level we are willingly used by of an element of this entire debate, the use of the US in the matter of CIA flights using words in a confusing or incorrect way. We are Shannon Airport. talking about a breach of international human I was one of many thousands who protested on rights law. As my colleague Senator Ryan stated, more than one occasion at Shannon Airport on Ireland has been the proud upholder of demo- the issue of the war against Iraq and, in part- cratic values and has sincerely tried to spread the icular, concern about the use of Shannon Airport word about democracy around the world. The for the landing of military aircraft on its way to 1615 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1616

[Ms O’Meara.] I commend the report to all Members, includ- Iraq. There is no doubt that concerns still exist ing the proposer and seconder of the motion, among Irish people about the use of Shannon because it is far superior to the European Union Airport for military flights. That is not precisely report which followed on as an afterthought, in a the subject matter of the debate today but it is turf war between the European Union and the important to implement a ban on CIA aircraft Council of Europe, which implied that the using all Irish airports. This would probably be Council of Europe represents only 46 member the most effective way of restoring public confi- states across Europe and that the European dence alongside a parliamentary investigation. It Union is more important than the Council of would be hugely important to act against the Europe. I say that as a proud and privileged background of our long-standing and good member of the Irish delegation. relationship with the US. We would also establish Last week at the plenary session of the our position as a sovereign state in the matter of parliamentary assembly I had the honour of being human rights at home and particularly our con- unanimously voted as chairman of the human cern and commitment to human rights on an rights committee of the Council of Europe. international level. We cannot stand idly by and pretend it is not a matter for us. It is a huge issue Ms White: Hear, hear. for us. It is a moral issue as well as a political and human rights issue and is one that can no longer Mr. Mooney: My strongest supporter and advo- be ignored. cate was one Senator Dick Marty, the chairman I commend the draft report from the EU. It is of the legal affairs committee and the rapporteur no secret that our colleague, Proinsias De Rossa, who investigated the rendition. MEP, has played a major role in drawing up the report and has made a huge contribution to it. Ms O’Meara: I am delighted to hear it.

Mr. Dooley: That explains it. Mr. Mooney: The Senator misinterprets what I am saying. In normal circumstances I would be Ms O’Meara: We speak the truth and people reluctant to flaunt the election to a committee, do not want to hear it. That kind of response—— irrespective of where it was.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Will the Senator Ms White: He is a statesman. conclude? Mr. Mooney: I am putting it on the record in Ms O’Meara: ——does not help the debate. order to answer the specific charge that Ireland’s Initially we had an all-party approach. This is a reputation as a defender of human rights is some- matter of major concern to Members across the how tarnished at international level and within Houses of the Oireachtas—— Europe. I am providing an alternative argument that here was a man who was touted and referred Mr. Mooney: That is not true. to repeatedly by Senators Ryan, Norris and many others in this House. I have no difficulty with that Ms O’Meara: ——and one in which we can re- because it was the report that was published at establish, by way of all party inquiry, all the facts, the time. One cannot now turn around and use not just the myths, and place them in the public the argument that somehow Ireland’s reputation domain. is tarnished at human rights level when the man who was the rapporteur in that report—— Mr. Mooney: I agree with one premise that has been put forward by the other side of the House Mr. Norris: For Ireland. on this issue. All of us, without qualification, are concerned at what has been alleged to have hap- Mr. Mooney: ——was one of the strongest sup- pened and what seems to have happened in terms porters. With all due respects I would never inter- of abductions and kidnappings outside the rule of rupt the Senator in anything he has to say. law. No one of us in this or the other House has a monopoly of concern on the rendition issue. Mr. Norris: The Senator is welcome to do so. It is interesting that the theme of the contri- butions by the proposer and seconder of the Mr. Mooney: I would be grateful if the Senator motion is that somehow Ireland’s reputation as a did not interrupt in this instance because this country that defends human rights has been tar- issue is highly charged, evidence of which we wit- nished. Perhaps I can put something on the nessed earlier. It is a serious issue. record to answer that. The first report that appeared was a Council of Europe parliamentary Mr. Ryan: Let us not include personalities. assembly report, not a European Union one, which did not in any way implicate Ireland Mr. Mooney: I wish to repeat what I said earl- directly. It did state that aeroplanes had landed ier that all of us share the concern here. In my but it did not engage the Irish Government in opinion this is not about concern. I believe there complicity with rendition. is a partisan motive behind all of this—— 1617 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1618

Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. Mr. Mooney: It is unfair to single out the Mini- ster for Foreign Affairs in this motion and to state Mr. Mooney: ——that it is in order to somehow that he has been hiding evidence or hiding the rub the Government’s nose in it. truth. I have the greatest respect for Proinsias de Rossa, who is the president of the Labour Party Mr. Ryan: It is all on our side. and a former distinguished Minister.

Mr. Mooney: I am prepared to accept the word Mr. Ryan: He is not the president. Deputy of the elected Minister for Foreign Affairs of this Michael D. Higgins is the president of the country. He asked a direct question of the Sec- Labour Party. retary of State of the United States, a friendly country, and was given the answer that nothing Mr. Mooney: Forgive me. He is a former pres- illegal was carried out on the sovereign territory ident of the party. He also has a distinguished of the Republic of Ireland. I accept that simply record in Europe. However, I understand he was because that is the way international relations the only member of that committee to put for- operate between friendly countries. ward a proposal that Ireland be singled out with Notwithstanding that, if there were any specific regard to this issue. That is wrong. evidence — and there are now two reports on the matter — to suggest that anything illegal had Mr. Ryan: Senator Mooney is wrong. been carried out on this country’s territory, I would support a move by the Government and Mr. Mooney: In the same context, the fact that the Garda Sı´ocha´na to investigate it and, if neces- the Minister for Foreign Affairs called for a sary, board the aeroplanes that are alleged to review of the relevant civil aviation legislation, have been involved in that illegality. However, no the Chicago Convention, was ignored. The reason such evidence has been presented to date. It is he sought this was not just because of the devel- extraordinary, although probably understandable opments in civil aviation since the conclusion of given that this is a political Chamber, that there the convention in 1944 but because the conven- would be a suggestion that the Government, tion currently only applies to military, police and regardless of its political hue, representing the customs aircraft transported a country. people of this country and exercising the sover- Most of the CIA aircraft are privately owned eign right of this country to make its own and privately hired. There were 147 flights. decisions internationally, would tolerate or accept any such illegality being conducted if there was An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is in even a scintilla of evidence that it was being injury time. hoodwinked. Nevertheless, that argument was weakened to Mr. Mooney: Perhaps I could have a few extra a degree by the incident involving the US marine seconds while the substitute is changing. who was transported through this country to an Any rational examination of the manner in American stockade to answer for an army crime which international affairs are carried out at that had nothing to do with the issue being diplomatic level will show that Government Mini- debated here today. Unfortunately, it has been sters use Government jets and official carriers. used as an example of perfidy on the part of the Business at international level is now conducted American authorities. by aeroplane. There is no suggestion that the 147 CIA owned flights were associated with ren- Mr. Ryan: Just indifference. We do not count dition. They were most likely associated with and we always accept the apology. diplomats and many other people——

Mr. Mooney: The argument is that if they did Mr. Norris: Rubbish. not tell us about the US marine, they did not tell us about anything else. My confidence in the Mr. Mooney: That is the stated fact. American assurances was shaken by that incident. Mr. Norris: It has been proved that several of Mr. Ryan: Obviously the Senator got over it. them were refuelled on their way back from rendition. Mr. Mooney: There is no question that the Americans were wrong on that occasion, and the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Norris Irish Government took the appropriate steps. should allow Senator Mooney to conclude with- The US Ambassador was summoned by the Mini- out interruption. ster for Foreign Affairs and he was told that it was unacceptable behaviour. I believe the Mr. Mooney: Not all these flights. Americans understood our position with regard to that incident. Mr. Norris: I am trying to tell the truth.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator has one Mr. Mooney: It is incorrect and mischievous to minute left. bundle all 147 flights together and claim that they 1619 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1620

[Mr. Mooney.] Second World War or the Cold War, one could were operating in an illegal fashion on this coun- state without challenge that the United States try’s territory. It is damaging to this country’s defended and promoted civil and human rights. interests to suggest it. However, as a result of practices such as extra- ordinary rendition and the ongoing situation in Mr. Bradford: I support the motion. If we had Iraq, that is now questionable. continued with our efforts 12 months ago to We are not doing the United States a favour establish the Oireachtas committee, it might not by leaving questions unanswered and by failing to have been necessary to debate this motion today. challenge the US Administration on this issue. The questions posed would already have been The Government amendment to the motion is answered, the investigations would have taken long on paragraphs but I am not sure what it place and we would have been in a position to hopes to achieve. It refers to the responses satisfy public opinion. Senator Ryan and Senator received from the US authorities and the Govern- O’Meara outlined the background regarding the ment’s satisfaction with those responses. committee that was proposed last year. At that However, questions still remain to be answered. time it appeared to be fully supported by all sides The Opposition would be remiss in its duty if of the House and preliminary meetings had taken it did not pose those questions. Asking those place. Some of the Fianna Fa´il Senators are indi- questions was to be at the core of the proposed cating otherwise but the Fianna Fa´il Party was work of last year’s committee of the House, as represented on the committee, as was the Labour was challenging any assumptions put forward, Party, Fine Gael and the Technical Group. finding out the truth of the situation and dealing We were disappointed that the committee with the rumours and counter-rumours. At this could not get its work under way. Fundamental late stage in the life of the current Government questions were asked at that time but in the 12 and Oireachtas, there will not be a change of months since then they have remained policy by the current Administration. This is dis- unanswered. Unanswered questions mean there appointing because the worries and concerns of are no winners. This country has not benefited, members of all parties still exist. The Govern- the United States has not benefited and the ment amendment to the motion and the recent broader issue of civil and human rights has not statements by the Minister do not offer full and benefited. clear answers to the questions being posed. Extraordinary rendition is a serious issue. It As Members of the Oireachtas we in this challenges us to take a stand on a matter of prin- House have a duty to continue with our efforts to ciple, that is, people’s rights. Earlier today there inquire into the possibility or otherwise of ren- were expressions of sympathy on the death of a dition flights taking place and using Irish facili- former Member of this House, Judge Sean ties. We must challenge this possibility at all O’Leary. He was prepared to ask the difficult levels. questions and take the difficult stance in defence The Garda Sı´ocha´na and the civil authorities of rights. That is the issue before the House in must be more proactive. It is not the job of this this debate. House or the Oireachtas to direct the Garda There is serious evidence to suggest that Irish Sı´ocha´na but we must send a strong signal that airspace and at least one Irish airport have been we expect the security forces in case of any doubt used for rendition flights. Some months ago, I list- to investigate these flights and that on-the-spot ened with interest to a report on the matter at the checks will be carried out wherever and whenever Council of Europe. The report was not conclusive possible. This would at least answer some of the but it posed many questions which have not been questions and bring some degree of clarity. answered. We now have the European Parlia- Looking at the European Parliament report, ment report. It is not fair to focus on one Member which is quite conclusive, and the Council of of the European Parliament and suggest that he Europe report, which is admittedly less conclus- attempted to secure a certain type of report. The ive, one cannot escape from the fact that issues report was by a European Parliament committee remain to be addressed. We cannot as yet state comprising all the groups in the European Parlia- with complete certainty that Ireland is not aiding ment. The report poses serious questions for this and abetting in this extraordinary rendition country. system. Notwithstanding public cynicism, politics Extraordinary rendition is taking place. The at times takes on a moral purpose. We must look question is whether Ireland is facilitating it and at this issue from a moral perspective. Extraordi- whether Irish airspace and airports are being nary rendition is as cruel and as wrong as any used. There will be no winners from the dreadful type of torture taking place. It is suspected that it practice of extraordinary rendition in the long leads to people being grossly mistreated. In both run. Unfortunately, over recent years the repu- the long and the short term it is entirely coun- tation and the level of admiration across the ter-productive. world for the United States have diminished. One In the case of the Middle East, apparent tough or two generations ago the United States was action is being taken from the perspective of seen as the greatest promoter and defender of security. Human rights are being trampled upon human and civil rights. Whether it was during the and people’s civil rights are being breached but 1621 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1622 the policy has produced nothing but bad results. of the Labour Party and former leader of Demo- It has not reduced the incidence of violence but cratic Left and The Workers’ Party, Proinsias De rather has caused further violence. It has not Rossa. He is somebody I admire in many respects resulted in stability but rather has caused com- but whose career has certainly been marked by a plete instability. Extraordinary rendition is part very strong streak of anti-Americanism. It is clear of that jigsaw of measures which has caused there was an attempt to use the European Parlia- today’s world to be a much more dangerous ment in an effort to embarrass the Irish place, especially in the Middle East and even Government. parts of western Europe. Reference was made to a discredited regime Ireland is a democratic country with an inde- with reference to the Bush Administration. I pendent voice which was heard loud and clear on noted with considerable interest a newsletter cir- many occasions both at the United Nations and culated recently and presumably for electoral the European Union. We should not be afraid to purposes by the mover of this motion, Senator have a clear position on the issue of extraordinary Ryan. It contained a photograph of himself and rendition. There should be no reason to support President Fidel Castro. it and no room for doubting our position. The Labour Party motion is quite balanced and it Mr. Norris: What is wrong with that? poses the questions we all wanted to ask 12 months ago and to which answers are still An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Mansergh required. without interruption.

Dr. Mansergh: I welcome the Minister of State Dr. Mansergh: I find it extraordinary that and his officials to the House. I was quite someone who is so concerned about empty air- interested in the Fine Gael contribution. Are we craft going through Shannon Airport, does not to conclude from it that a Fine Gael-led Govern- seem to have the same concern for a 45-year ment would forthwith ban the use of Shannon old—— Airport by certain categories of US aircraft? It would be important to know the answer to this Ms White: It is a dictatorship. question. I do not see any difference between the sides Dr. Mansergh: ——Communist dictatorship of the House on the substance of the question of which carried out thousands of executions in the extraordinary rendition and holding centres such early years and executions in 2003 of people try- as Guantanamo and the type of practices carried ing to flee to the United States—— out at Abu Ghraib. The Government and the Members on this side of the House deplore those Mr. Norris: What about those who placed practices and look forward to actions that are bombs on a commercial airliner with the assist- strictly consistent with the international rule of ance of the CIA? law. Senator Ryan in his contribution stated that Dr. Mansergh: ——which was condemned by nobody was alleging that rendition had taken Amnesty International and writers on Latin place through Shannon Airport but this argument America. was rather weakened by his subsequent state- ments in which he referred to relying on unsub- Mr. Norris: Did the Senator prefer Batista and stantiated, unevidenced assurances. His col- the barons of the drug cartels? league, Senator O’Meara stated that the Irish public neither trusted nor believed the assur- Dr. Mansergh: While I do not doubt the ideal- ances. The Minister for Foreign Affairs was given ism of Senator Ryan, a strand in the European categorical assurances by the US Secretary of left is blind when it comes to the question of State and this side of the House accepts those double standards. I am shocked the Senator assurances. It would be very dangerous to act on would be pictured with the leader of a discredited a basis which suggested that we were calling into regime which is holding back the country over question the good faith of the US Government at which it rules. It is almost as if we would prefer a the highest level. socialist dictator who offers no chance of demo- I note the motion proposes that we should cratic change to a capitalist democrat who will, bring in an immediate ban first and investigate without question, leave office in January 2009. afterwards. I am not sure what an investigation could achieve and what more information is likely Mr. Norris: President Bush will probably be to be available to a committee of the House. With impeached before that date. all due respect to the European Parliament, it is I welcome this debate and commend the up to this Parliament to order its business and not Labour Party for tabling the motion; it has done to be told by another assembly what committees the House a service. I have been involved in this we should or should not establish. area for some time, having proposed the estab- I note Senator O’Meara’s confirmation of the lishment of a committee of inquiry into ren- very important role played by a former president ditions. Although my proposal was agreed in the 1623 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1624

[Mr. Norris.] independence, every vote is directed. It cannot be House, it was later sabotaged in a most astonish- denied, for example, that the committee demo- ing and regrettable manner. cratically instituted in this House was collapsed It is worth pointing out that it was I who by a division directed by Government in which reported matters to the Garda Commissioner. As Senators voted against their consciences because a result, two senior officers were sent to meet me. they were whipped. I brought Deputy Michael D. Higgins of the Labour Party with me to the meeting as a witness. Dr. Mansergh: The House did not agree to The officers flatly contradicted statements by the the committee. Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, about the right to enter aircraft. It is pre- Mr. Norris: It is a disgrace to commend the cisely to investigate in this jurisdiction conflicts of Government for its full co-operation. The amend- evidence of this kind that such a committee ment also expresses serious concern about the should be established. It would also enable us to “opaque manner” in which the TDIP committee amend the law if necessary. reached an inflated figure of suspicious aircraft When it emerged that the Minister would and commends the Government for its policy of appear before the committee of investigation early and proactive engagement with the US established by the European Parliament I wrote authorities. What rubbish. a letter to its chairman enclosing correspondence Condoleeza Rice is a busted flush and liar, as between myself and the Department of the is George Bush. I have never been stopped from Foreign Affairs and reports of the House. I indi- describing them as such in the House. These cated that I hoped the documentation would words have also been used in the British Parlia- enable the committee to prevent the Minister for ment and Congress in Washington, while Foreign Affairs from claiming he was unaware of American citizens have stood outside the White what was taking place because I and Members of House in recent days with banners emblazoned the Other House had ensured the Government with the same words. The reason is that Ms Rice was aware of what was taking place. and President Bush are liars, and with poll ratings The Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, should of 28% President Bush is a busted flush. This is note remarks I made on the Order of Business a man who wanted to legitimise torture. The regarding the amendment, which I described as a reason his Administration regards torture as legal disgrace. I also noted it was not written by the is that Ms Condoleeza Rice, if she is a woman, Leader, in whose name it had appeared on the stated during the bloodbath in Lebanon that what Order Paper. I hope images of her nodding vigor- we were witnessing was the birth pangs—— ously when I described it as a tissue of lies, eva- sion and hypocrisy will be shown on television. Dr. Mansergh: Could we avoid raising ques- At least Senator O’Rourke has a few standards tions of sexual identity? and some decency. I will explain the reason I described the amend- Mr. Norris: If the Senator is intelligent enough ment in those terms. The second paragraph states to listen, instead of smirking and giggling, I will that the Government responded urgently from explain. The reason I call into question Condo- the outset to allegations of extraordinary ren- leeza Rice’s intellectual or emotional gender dition. That is a downright lie. The Government identity was her description of the bloodbath equivocated and avoided answering questions. unleashed by the Americans and Israelis in The fourth paragraph states the Government co- Lebanon as the birth pangs of democracy. I operated to the very fullest extent with the inves- reserve the right to question the fundamental tigation carried by the European Parliament’s humanity and decency of a person who would use temporary committee. It did not do so. For God’s such a phrase to describe the catastrophe unle- sake, on what planet are we living? Co-operation ashed in Lebanon. If Senators believe Condo- only occurs when both sides agree it occurred. leeza Rice they are very foolish. The TDIP committee’s report makes perfectly How are we anti-American when we are on the clear that the Minister did not co-operate, refused same side as the American people and Congress? to answer questions and answered questions he The fools on the other side have aligned them- was not asked. The Government engaged in a selves with a discredited element in one of the stalling exercise throughout, yet this lying motion worst governments the United States has ever blandly states it co-operated fully. Let us at least had and its worst ever presidency. The introduc- have the truth. tion of the TDIP committee’s report states that The fifth paragraph states that contrary to the the prohibition of torture is a peremptory norm apparent misconception of the TDIP committee, of international law — jus cogens — from which it is not for the Government to direct the work no derogation is possible. Again and again, the of the Oireachtas. Of course it is for the Govern- current United States Administration has ment to do so. This debate is a classic of how this defended torture and techniques such as water- is done and I should not have to tell Ministers boarding perfected by the Gestapo. that the Government directs the Oireachtas. The Government’s position is that there is no While the Houses may have an appearance of evidence that rendition took place through 1625 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1626

Ireland. I would like the Minister and Senators There are decent people on the Government side on the other side to admit that it has been proved of the House who share the same ideas, but they incontrovertibly that aeroplanes, which were are whipped into line and that is why this report known and numbered and whose records I have is right. The Government is running this House, placed on the record of the House, passed telling people of conscience what to do and how through Irish airspace. These aircraft, for to vote. It is a pity they do not have the guts to example, an aeroplane with the registration remember their own alleged republicanism. number N379P, were associated with rendition and nothing else. When we named and shamed it Minister of State at the Department of Foreign the registration was changed. These aeroplanes Affairs (Mr. Treacy): I welcome the opportunity were refuelled in Shannon Airport as they to address the Seanad once again on this issue returned directly from rendition. Is this not assist- and I encourage Senators to support the pro- ance? Are Senators on the other side speaking posed amendment. As the House will recall, on English? Are they capable of moral feeling? It two previous occasions last year, in March and disgusts me that the motion should be amended again in June, I had the privilege of addressing in such an insupportable and disgraceful manner. Seanad E´ ireann on the subject of extraordinary The TDIP committee’s findings as regards rendition. The debate has progressed consider- Ireland are very clear and attempts to turn the ably since then to the extent that no credible debate on them into some petty, parochial, cab- voice is any longer suggesting that prisoners have bage patch row are disingenuous in the extreme. been brought through Irish airports. Do the Senators opposite seriously believe that Proinsias De Rossa is running the European Par- Mr. Norris: No one ever did. liament? A majority was achieved in a democratic assembly and all the Government side can find is Mr. Treacy: Yes, the Senator did. some obscure republican plot, which ill comes from the Senators opposite. The committee called Mr. Norris: That is more of the evasion and on the Irish Government to institute a parliamen- the lies. tary inquiry. Such an inquiry was established but destroyed for the most petty and parochial of An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Minister of State reasons. We know torture is taking place and that the without interruption. Americans approve of it. We also know the United States Supreme Court is blenching at this Mr. Treacy: I am almost overcome by the moral obliquity. We know of the ginormous verbosity of the Senator’s pompous 6 o’clock appalling conditions in the Abu wisdom, describing us as fools smelling money in Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay prison our nostrils. camps. We now know, thanks to the investigative reporters of the BBC, the locations of the black Mr. Norris: The Minister of State should be sites — the denied torture camps — in Poland. I writing Finnegans Wake. have a document detailing names, dates and places, which I will send to the Minister. It tran- Mr. Treacy: I have heard of nobody in this spires that our own friendly, executive jet, N379P, House who is not anxious to draw their monthly turns up again at this named but unpronounce- salary, or anybody on this island who is not able airport in Poland. What does the Minister anxious to be gainfully employed. Why should of State have to say about that? We know about they not be? If the wisdom and leadership of this torture. A report in The Irish Times today indi- party in co-operation with our colleagues in the cates that torture is endemic in Jordan. King Progressive Democrats continue to allow the Abdullah is a decent and honourable man. He nation to grow an economy that creates an oppor- has tried to get some of these prisons closed down tunity for our people’s intellectual talent to be but the situation is endemic. The Americans used continuously engaged in developing the nation, us as an assistant in the outsourcing of torture, then why should we not be interested in the which is to our eternal shame. Part of the argu- wellbeing of our people? What is wrong with ment was that jobs at Shannon Airport were that? I take exception to—— more important than standards. What a lamen- table and stupid idea. I voted against the beef Mr. Norris: Will the Leas-Chathaoirleach ask deals in Iraq and I was told from the Government the Minister of State what question he is replying side of the House that while I was saying the to because I do not have the faintest idea? moral thing, we could not afford it. We did not do it but we got stung because we were still owed Mr. Treacy: I am replying to the insinuation by \100 million. We did the lousy thing and got the Senator that he believes this side of the stung, and we are doing it again now. We are also House does not have the ability to continue to doing it with China because the smell of money lead this nation in the interests of all our people, is so rich in the nostrils in the people who are for the common good and global welfare, includ- running this country. It is a profound disgrace. ing the European Union. 1627 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1628

Mr. Norris: That is rubbish. I said he was selling had taken place through Ireland. He was the first out to torturers and that is what he has done. to raise the matter at EU level, following which the President of the Council formally took up the Mr. Ryan: We know he is not up to the job. issue with the US authorities. He was also the first to call for the reform of the Chicago Mr. Norris: He is a decent man but he has been convention. stuck in like a patsy. From the outset, this Government’s clear and consistent objective has been to ensure Irish terri- Mr. Treacy: God help the nation if those got tory is not used for the illegal transfer of pris- the job. oners in this manner. Since 2004 when the first The investigations carried out by the Council of allegations were made, thanks to the swift, decis- Europe, the European Parliament and in special ive action of our Government, we have been in cases by An Garda Sı´ocha´na, have uncovered an unparalleled position with respect to the absolutely no evidence to suggest prisoners might unqualified, categorical assurances that we have have been transferred, through Irish airports, in received from the US authorities on this matter, contravention of the categorical assurances, both in terms of their specificity and of the level which we have received from the US authorities, at which they were given. Senators will recall that in this area. the United States authorities have not issued similar blanket assurances to most other Mr. Norris: Having committed these appalling member states. acts, the jets were refuelled with the connivance Some have asked the reason the Government of the Irish authorities. does not introduce a policy of random searches of aircraft through Irish territory, but this would An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Minister of State be only a cosmetic exercise. In Ireland’s case, I without interruption. understand from our Department of Transport Mr. Treacy: Notwithstanding this, our Govern- that, depending on the season, there are between ment has continued its proactive approach to this 750 and 1,750 movements of private aircraft matter. I will begin by outlining the Govern- through Irish airports each month. Among these ment’s position in this area. I will then address aircraft, those said to have been involved in extra- the recent report by the European Parliament’s ordinary rendition missions, have been identified temporary committee investigating extraordinary only months or even years after they have partici- rendition and, finally, I will describe to Senators pated in these missions. Their registration some of the forward looking proposals that have numbers have often been changed. been made by our Government in respect of this matter. At the outset, however, I wish to reiterate Mr. Norris: That should tell the Minister of once again, the Government’s complete oppo- State something. sition to the practice of extraordinary rendition. Mr. Treacy: Moreover, it seems they are char- Mr. Norris: While it facilitates it. tered only temporarily by the CIA and are then returned to their owners for normal aviation pur- Mr. Treacy: This has been our Government’s poses. Even if by chance, an aircraft involved in constant position since the existence of this prac- illegal activity elsewhere were to be searched, tice was first revealed. This has been made clear what would such a search reveal? I repeat that to the US authorities on numerous occasions, gardaı´ have all the powers they need to search including at the very highest levels. I welcome the aircraft which they suspect of being used for finding implicit in the report of the TDIP commit- illegal purposes. There have been Garda investi- tee that no prisoners were transferred through gations, none of which has uncovered any Irish territory, which thereby vindicates the wrongdoing. Government’s policy of early and proactive I wish to turn now to the European Parliament engagement with the US authorities on the committee report that prompted the original matter, and full co-operation with the Europe- motion for this debate. The Senators who moved wide investigations of both the Council of Europe the motion have picked out two of the report’s — to which Senator Mooney has already alluded suggestions, which I will address in a moment. — and the European Parliament. In furtherance Before doing so, however, I would like to speak of this policy, my colleague, the Minister for briefly on the report in general. As I have already Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, was one mentioned, we welcome the finding implicit in the of only two foreign ministers of 27 member states, report that prisoners have not been transferred to agree to attend the European Parliament com- through Irish territory, in keeping with the categ- mittee’s proceedings. We welcome the warm orical assurances that we have received from the acknowledgement of his presence contained in US authorities. However, it is a matter of pro- the European Parliament committee’s report. found regret that certain members of the Euro- The Minister was the first to raise the issue bilat- pean Parliament’s committee, acting for partisan erally with the US, and got a clear categoric reasons, squandered the opportunity to produce a assurance from it that no extraordinary rendition forward-looking document, which focused on the 1629 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1630 changes that need to be made in future. These flights are inherently sinister. Again, in his find- include the regulation of international civil ings last summer, Senator Marty emphasised that aviation, as suggested by the Minister for Foreign “not all flights of CIA aircraft participate in ’ren- Affairs during his exchange of views with the ditions’”, and he has acknowledged on other committee. They have instead used the report to occasions that only a tiny minority of such flights score political points in a manner which under- might be engaged in such a practice. mines the credibility and accuracy of the final There are many legitimate reasons for inter- report. This is both disappointing and regrettable. national co-operation in intelligence matters. The One can pick many holes in the report and I report’s suggestion that all such co-operation by do not propose to go through a line-by-line rebut- Ireland should be cancelled because of a risk of tal of each of its many questionable points. extraordinary rendition, which it in any event However, I will pick out a number of items which recognises does not occur through Ireland, is ludi- I cannot allow to go unanswered. The first of crous. I urge Senators to think very carefully these is the inflated figure — to which colleagues before supporting a motion which contains such have already referred — of 147 allegedly sus- a fundamentally flawed proposal. picious landings of aircraft in Ireland. As the The second of the report’s proposals that is amended motion records, the committee rappor- picked up in tonight’s motion is the suggestion teur’s method of obtaining this figure is highly that the Oireachtas launch a parliamentary inves- opaque. We do know that his analysis includes tigation into the use of Irish territory in this any aircraft said to have been used in any extra- matter. In response, I recall that Seanad E´ ireann ordinary rendition missions on different has twice voted not to establish such a committee. occasions, aircraft which have landed at airports With all due respect to the European Parliament, in “suspicious” countries, and aircraft previously Senators were not waiting for an invitation from believed to have been suspicious and which have that body to establish an investigation. Rather, been re-registered. Notwithstanding the clear evi- having considered the matter twice in the past dence unearthed by his own committee, which year, and having evaluated the paucity of evi- shows that the CIA operates aircraft for only a dence to support establishing such a committee, brief period before returning them to normal use, they decided not to do so. the rapporteur adopted a “once used, forever tainted” approach to identifying aircraft. This had Mr. Ryan: Rubbish. the advantage from the rapporteur’s perspective of delivering headline-grabbing figures, but its Mr. Treacy: I would make one final point in flaws undermine the credibility of the entire regard to the report. Given the Minister’s pre- European Parliament process. paredness to support the work of the European My last intervention on this matter in this Parliament committee — as I said, only one other House was made just after Senator Marty of the Minister attended — I find extraordinary the Council of Europe had published his report on report’s erroneous suggestion that the Minister, the matter. It is worth quoting Senator Marty Deputy Dermot Ahern, failed to answer ques- when he warns in that report, “We undermine tions put to him. The transcript of the Minister’s our credibility and limit the possibility for serious meeting with the European Parliament commit- discussion if we make allegations that are tee, which lasted almost two hours, is available on ambiguous, exaggerated or unsubstantiated.” Mr. the European Parliament’s website. It is plain Simon Coveney, MEP made this very point dur- that the Minister was entirely open in his ing the Minister for Foreign Affairs’s appearance. exchanges with the committee. The suggestion Regrettably, the report of European Parliament that he was not is both discourteous and inaccur- committee does just this. ate, and absolutely unfair to him as a representa- In addition to our doubts about the report’s tive of a sovereign Government. landing statistics, I would highlight its call for a As I stated at the beginning of my address, it ban on all CIA aircraft landing in Ireland, which is a matter of some regret that the report pro- we see echoed in tonight’s original motion. This duced by the European Parliament’s committee proposed ban is extraordinary for two reasons. expends so much effort on examining events in First, Ireland is the only country in the report in the past at the expense of suggesting concrete regard to which such a ban is called for, so that ways in which instances of extraordinary ren- such aircraft could, according to the terms of the dition can be prevented from occurring in the report, land in Scotland, England or elsewhere future. In the course of his meeting with the instead. This bizarre situation is explained by the European Parliament, the Minister focused in fact the ban call results from an amendment particular on the potential benefits that might tabled by an Irish MEP whose goal would appear accrue from a review of the system of regulating to have been more to make political charges than international aviation. He suggested consider- to use his privileged position to examine ways of ation be given to examining the Chicago Conven- preventing this practice. Second and more tion of 1944, in particular to considering the seriously, the call for an absolute ban on landings system of classification of flights for clearance by CIA-operated aircraft here is based on the and notification under the convention. Nowhere illegitimate assumption that all CIA-operated does this relatively straightforward but poten- 1631 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1632

[Mr. Treacy.] countries where these planes have visited before tially beneficial suggestion appear in the Euro- or after landing in Ireland. Nobody has been in a pean Parliament committee’s report. This is a pity position to state whether prisoners were on the because it is clear that for any future action in flights because none of the planes was inspected, this area to be effective, it will need to be taken even though the authorities could inspect the at a European level. The Government has planes if they wanted to. It is fine to be able to decided to seek to encourage discussion in the state we were given assurances at the highest Council framework and our permanent represen- level of authority that this is not happening but tation in Brussels will in the coming weeks raise an open invitation to inspect the planes by these the matter with our EU partners. high authorities would have been extremely use- Another aspect of this matter is the Govern- ful. That does not appear to have been ment’s dialogue with the Irish Human Rights forthcoming. Commission, IHRC, on the issue of Ireland’s I first raised this matter in the House on 23 human rights obligations. The Government is June 2004 when speaking on the Transfer of satisfied it is fully in compliance with its obli- Execution of Sentences Bill 2003. I asked the gations under international law and has made this Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform clear to the IHRC in the course of an extensive what would be the situation if untried and un- and detailed correspondence on the international sentenced people were being brought through law issues between the Minister for Foreign Shannon to goodness knows where. He replied: Affairs and the IHRC. In the most recent letter We have our Constitution and the right of from the Minister for Foreign Affairs to the pres- the freedom of the individual is not confined to ident of the IHRC, dated 25 July 2006, the Mini- citizens; it applies to all persons. Therefore, it ster suggested the possibility of continuing the would cause me grave concern if I thought dialogue at official level. The IHRC last week sig- people were being smuggled through Irish ter- nalled its openness to this suggestion and our ritory in circumstances that amounted to Department has suggested a range of possible unlawful detention in Irish law or in inter- dates for these meetings. national law for that matter. To conclude, the Government’s consistent and long-standing position on the issue of extraordi- I accept it has not been shown that prisoners are nary rendition is absolutely clear. We condemn it, being brought through Shannon but, if we accept we do not facilitate it, and, looking to the future, the flight numbers given and that the planes are we are willing to examine practicable and specific involved in the process of extraordinary ren- ways in which, with our partners, we can lessen dition, the logistics are being aided. the possibility that future cases of extraordinary It is interesting that we do not have a greater rendition might occur anywhere. That the Euro- sense of self-preservation in this regard. We know pean Parliament committee’s report as it relates great anger is caused in the Muslim world by any to Ireland is so unbalanced is of course a matter idea that people may be associated with extra- for regret. So also is its lack of practical sugges- ordinary rendition. I heard the Minister for Edu- tions for ways of preventing future occurrences of cation and Science, when in Saudi Arabia, quite extraordinary rendition. However, the very fact rightly welcome that the King Abdullah scholar- of the European Parliament’s conducting an ships are to be extended to Ireland — we hope investigation has helped to raise the profile of this to have 500 Sunni students come here in the near issue, which in itself is positive. future to study in our universities. We already Turning to tonight’s debate, the Seanad is have a considerable number of people from that faced with a flawed motion based on a flawed part of the world and have had an extraordinarily report. I cannot commend it to this House. good relationship with that region. This is not just Rather, I urge Senators to lend their support to through trade or selling beef to Saddam’s army the practical, balanced and forward-looking coun- and so forth. For decades, people from that part ter-motion and, for a third time in almost a year, of the world have come here to study medicine, to act in accordance with their proud tradition of engineering and in scientific areas. I would regret rational, evidence-based analysis of the issues very much if we did not make plain to them that before them. I know I can depend on the House we understand their concerns about what is hap- to do that. pening. We have not asked them what they think about the situation. I welcome the fact that the Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister of State to Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot the House and was glad to hear his interesting Ahern, is currently on a tour of the area and I speech. While no credible voice has been brought hope he asks both sides how they feel about the forward to suggest prisoners have been brought matter. I was glad the Minister attended the pro- through Irish airports, there is considerable evi- ceedings of the European Parliament committee. dence that aeroplanes which were used for trans- It was right to do so because we must show that porting such prisoners have been here, which is a we consider what we are doing correct. problem because it means we are part of the pro- On this issue, it seems it is on the views of one cess. We know torture has been carried out in party, the United States of America, that we rely. Jordan, Syria and Egypt and possibly in other It is not the Irish people alone who are interested 1633 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1634 in the issue. I suggest people in the Middle East who refer in derogatory terms to the Bush and in countries such as Sweden and Italy, from Administration as the author of this type of prac- where people have been abducted to be brought tice. They should note that it started in a previous to third countries for torture, are also interested. Administration and has been continued by the I would be glad to be informed of their views on Bush Administration. I do not wish to defend the the matter. Bush Administration, but just wish to make the point for this debate. Mr. Dooley: I wish to share my time with I am also concerned that every time we debate Senator Ormonde. the issue, Shannon is drawn into the net. The I welcome the Minister of State and the infor- Minister of State addressed that matter. The mation he has provided. I also welcome the publi- debate has moved from the point where people cation of the report we are discussing today. mentioned here that they had heard on the radio I have spoken on this issue many times in the that prisoners in shackles were being brought House where there has been a certain level of through Shannon Airport. It is now accepted that rancour in the debate. However, the debate has was not the case. We should move to a higher been worthwhile. Everybody approaches the level of debate and move away from mentioning issue in terms of what is important to him or her, specific airports. Let us leave the people of but there is commonality in the fact that people Shannon in peace. are agreed on their opposition to extraordinary We should also remove from the debate the rendition. Nobody has indicated differently in any suggestion that Fianna Fa´il is only concerned with of the debates. the protection of Shannon Airport. That is not One important issue missed in the report — it the case. We are not prepared to sacrifice human was touched on by the Minister of State — con- rights for jobs at Shannon Airport and that has cerns how we should deal with the issue of ren- never been at the core of our debate. dition. The report appears to single out the Government for blame, but I will not take that Ms Ormonde: I welcome the Minister of State. route. I will not get into an argument about Listening to this debate is like listening to a whether the blame lies with Proinsias de Rossa, record player because it has been repeatedly MEP, the Labour Party or a certain left agenda pointed out by the Minister of State and other in Europe. I presume anybody involved in pro- speakers that the Government is completely ducing these reports goes to the table with his or opposed to the practice of extraordinary ren- her own views on life and on how such issues dition and would never allow it. The Govern- should be thrashed out, but I am sure it is done ment’s position stands as fact. We cannot deviate in an upfront manner. It is important to move from the fact that the Government made its con- away from the blame game. It is more important cerns known to the highest level of the US to decide how we can deal with the issue of ren- Government and we were reassured that no dition, on the role of the CIA in the situation and attempts were made to use Irish airports or terri- how the rule of law can be protected. tory for the purpose of transferring and trans- The report suggests banning CIA flights porting prisoners. The US has stated authoritat- through Ireland. I have no doubt the majority of ively that prisoners have not been transferred CIA flights through Ireland have beneficial pur- through Irish territory. I accept that assurance poses. In debate on extraordinary rendition, we and will not try to dig holes in it. Comprehensive, often lose sight of the fact that the CIA provides factual assurances were given through the a service that benefits all of us. This does not ambassador and they are not open to other inter- mean I support all its actions, but I sleep easier pretations. in my bed at night, as do many citizens of the Some questions were raised by the Secretary world, as a result of the intelligence gathering of General of the Council of Europe, Mr. Terry the agency. Davis — I am a member of the Irish delegation Another myth with regard to this issue is illus- to the Council. Mr. Davis stated that our response trated by the term “anti-Americanism”. I am not did not need further clarification. I will not chal- sure the sentiments expressed are always anti- lenge that statement; why would I? The Govern- American, but there is certainly an anti-Bush, ment’s response set out clearly the legal situation anti-Administration or anti-Republican Party here with regard to illegal deprivation of liberty agenda. It is worth noting the change in the focus and the role of the Garda and other authorities of the CIA took place in 1995 when there was a in preventing such deprivation and investigating greater level of spend into the agency and greater irrelevant allegations. The Garda Sı´ocha´na has recognition by the Administration of the time of investigated six complaints by the public related the lack of quality information that would allow to extraordinary rendition, but found no unlawful it make decisions that would protect not alone activity occurred. The Garda is ready to investi- the United States, but also other countries in gate any further allegations where there are Europe. Strangely enough, it was the Democratic grounds to suspect such activity. Clinton Administration that was in power at the I note the rapporteur’s report and the state- time. The shift in CIA policy had its genesis then, ment that aircraft associated with the CIA have which is something worth considering by those passed through Ireland on 147 occasions. Were 1635 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1636

[Ms Ormonde.] gers at risk. However, they never produced one not people busy counting to get the figure right? scintilla of evidence to support their allegations. Despite investigation, political and media activity It is also important to state that they have no and NGO scrutiny, not a shred of evidence has local support in Shannon. I wish to refute a refer- shown extraordinary rendition took place ence made to the volume of support in various through Irish airports and territory. The Govern- areas. When several attempts were made to block ment has made it clear that should any evidence and picket the airport, causing disruption around of such activity on our territory be found, the it, very few people attended. Only three of four legal remedies would be put in place immediately. turned up with banners for the last protest organ- I will uphold human rights, and I would be the ised there, and it was obvious that there was no first to take issue with prisoners being trans- appreciable level of public support or evidence of ported in order to be subject to torture while sympathy for the carry-on that we witnessed at deprived of their liberty. I could not stand by; nor Shannon Airport when certain individuals, would the Government do so. I do not know why including Members of the Oireachtas, organised we are wrangling about this issue, since we are pickets against American involvement in wars all singing the same tune. I suspect that there is and other activities. something else behind tonight’s agenda. This has We all condemn the war and wish it to be over been brought up time and again, and I accept the as quickly as possible. However, no evidence of Government’s reply and the statement of the rendition has been produced at any stage. As Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Senator Ormonde said, investigations were Ahern. He travelled to Europe and took on the carried out numerous times by local security per- committee. I accept that he was ready and able sonnel when allegations were made. They went to to discuss this and provide reassurances. the authorities, and no evidence whatsoever was I am happy to support the amendment, but that found to support them. Time and again we find does not stop me from saying that we must be ourselves dealing with this issue in the House, extremely vigilant to ensure that it not happen and it has also been discussed in the European in future. Parliament. Central to much of the discussion that has Mr. Daly: I too support the amendment and taken place recently in Europe was Proinsias de express our appreciation for the presence of the Rossa, MEP, who for a few years served as Mini- Minister of State. As he said, it is not the first ster for Social Welfare in a previous Government. occasion that he has attended the House to dis- I cannot recollect his making any comment cuss this issue. When I was a Member of the through any medium or in the House about air- Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of craft going through Shannon, and he was a Europe, sitting on its legal affairs committee, the member of the Government at the time, enjoying first reports of rendition appeared in The New full access to information regarding such issues. I York Times, giving rise to international comment. have consulted the records as far as possible, and I believe that we made our views clear at the to my knowledge he showed no interest in it in time. There is no need to repeat tonight what we any public comments, other than the anti- have said on numerous occasions, namely, that American propaganda in which he has been we totally oppose anything of that nature. We will engaged for years. not stand for it, since it is against all our prin- As a member of the Government as Minister ciples. It is hardly necessary for me to repeat that. for Social Welfare, Proinsias de Rossa, MEP, However, no number of emotional or hysterical made no comment regarding American flights speakers such as we have heard tonight can sub- going through Shannon. He showed very little or stitute for concrete evidence in this regard. We no interest in the matter. It amazes me that he have been insulted many times by an individual has new-found interests, and perhaps he might speaker regarding our attitude to this issue. We explain them. I have knowledge of the area and have been abused and almost ridiculed by him, have not seen Mr. de Rossa in Shannon for many but like his fellow-travellers who visited Shannon years; I am not even sure whether he has been and remained under the bushes with binoculars there in the last ten or 15 years. He can carry on for several years plane-spotting, he has never pro- his activities in Europe, and we will pursue ours duced a scintilla of evidence to support the alle- in Shannon. gations that he bandies around this House. I am satisfied that the authorities in Shannon, In Shannon, people protested not about ren- and the Garda authorities, have all the powers dition but about the use of the airport by certain required. If they need legal backing, it is within American civilian aircraft to carry soldiers to and their remit to investigate flights where there are from various destinations, breaking down the per- allegations of wrongdoing. Such CIA flights are imeter fence and causing millions of euro of civilian rather than military. I believe there is a damage to the airport, attacking aeroplanes and distinction between military and civilian flights, causing millions of dollars of damage to especially civilian aeroplanes chartered by the extremely expensive aircraft, and attempting to authorities to convey soldiers to and from Euro- invade them and put the lives of transit passen- pean destinations, which regularly use Shannon. 1637 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1638

Those staunchly opposed to the war in Iraq treat our Minister for Foreign Affairs like that? include the German authorities, who have He had to leave the meeting and did not have the recently been very quick to negotiate a deal for manners to hear the response to his accusations. American carriers to pass through Leipzig. A Mr. Fava has much for which to answer. There is sizeable amount of the business that went collusion between him and Mr. Proinsias de through Shannon now goes through that airport. Rossa, MEP. The American people have shown Although they have very strongly criticised the what they think of Mr. Bush, who is on the way United States’ activities in Europe, the German out. The majority do not approve of the war on authorities have been quick to seek out oppor- Iraq. When I came back from the US last year I tunities to do business with America where it predicted that Mr. Bush would not last long. means dollars for the German economy. There is extreme left-wing anti-American senti- At this stage, perhaps we might invite those ment, which is totally stupid. interested to come to Shannon, not for the pur- pose of confrontation, but to speak to the airport Mr. Ryan: Where is it? authorities, something that they did not do when they last went there to open up banners and plac- Ms White: There is an alliance between Mr. ards and protest in front of the airport. They did Fava and Mr. Proinsias de Rossa, MEP, to put not have the courtesy to talk to the airport secur- down our Government. ity officers, the management of the airport, or any of the personnel in the development companies. Mr. Ryan: Many people agree with them. They talked least of all to local people, preferring flying missions into Shannon to unfold banners as Ms White: Our Minister raised the matter first. publicity stunts with their anti-American fellow- His pressing on the matter of rendition led to Ms travellers. We do not know why they acted, but Rice visiting Brussels to discuss the matter, dem- their activities certainly did no service to the onstrating Ireland’s ambition to deny support for country or to Shannon Airport. any form of extraordinary rendition. It is time to update legislation on matters such Ms White: I welcome the Minister of State and as rendition to guard against such flights. As the thank him for his passionate speech. Senator Minister for Foreign Affairs stated on 30 Norris concurred on its worth and on the Minister November, the Chicago Convention should be of State’s eloquence. As we all know, the term reviewed. It was drawn up in 1944 and is out of “extraordinary rendition” refers to the extraju- date. Changes should be made to ensure infor- dicial procedure used by the United States for mation is available and suspicions can be transporting terrorist suspects from one country addressed by countries through which planes are to another to interrogate or imprison them in cir- travelling. From an Irish perspective the optimal cumstances that give rise to a risk of torture or route for this legislation is the EU. All member other cruel or inhuman treatment. Last June the states are concerned about extraordinary ren- Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of dition and would be motivated to produce legis- Europe passed a resolution condemning what it lation to address matters of safety and sover- termed the “spider’s web” of CIA transfers and eignty. This is an opportunity for a small country detention involving active or passive collusion by to produce legislation on the European stage to member states. update the Chicago Convention and provide Extraordinary rendition represents what the information on those travelling on flights. UN High Commissioner for Human Rights termed a complete repudiation of the law and the Ms Tuffy: I have been reading a report pub- justice system. The Taoiseach, Ta´naiste and Mini- lished by Mr. Dick Marty in June 2006. He refers ster for Foreign Affairs have made it clear that to the human dimension of rendition. He con- the Government is opposed to the practice of siders the human impact in two ways, the practice extraordinary rendition. At the meeting of the of preparing a detainee to be deported and the temporary committee on the alleged use of Euro- grave, long-lasting psychological damage inflicted pean countries by the CIA for the transport and by extraordinary rendition. He refers to many illegal detention of prisoners the Minister stated different types of victims of the process but the that Ireland is absolutely and vehemently against methodology of treatment is the same. As part of extraordinary rendition and that we will not allow the European Convention on Human Rights we it to take place in our country. Speaking on RTE have signed up to the right not to be tortured or on 23 January and on Today FM, the Minister subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment or reaffirmed the point. punishment. A member of the CIA describes ren- Mr. Fava, author of the European Parliament dition as involving shackling and restraining the report on CIA rendition, breached protocol by prisoner. Those being transported are subjected leaving the meeting after the Minister for Foreign to a 20-minute take out by being rendered immo- Affairs had made his opening statement. The bile, deprived of sensory stimuli and having cloth- Minister, one of two Ministers who attended out ing cut from their bodies with knives or scissors. of the 25 entitled to appear, had the courtesy to I can hardly bring myself to mention some of the attend for over two hours. How dare Mr. Fava material in the report. The person may be forced 1639 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1640

[Ms Tuffy.] Condoleezza Rice has categorically denied it to wear a nappy and will not know where he is ever happened and that is the official public posi- going or his fate on arrival. tion of the US Government. Yet the report’s con- The impact on the people and their families is tents on what happened in Italy, Sweden, Austria devastating. The symptoms include demoralis- and the United Kingdom are unchallenged by ation, flashbacks, panic attacks and deep psycho- anybody I know in Government. In each case the logical scars that prevent re-engaging with report names individuals abducted from those society. The report includes specific examples of countries and in most cases brought to be tor- this. tured. The US Government denied that ever As an Irish citizen I cannot stand over this happened. behaviour being directly or indirectly facilitated A representative of the US gave us, with hand by the State. I do not understand how the on her heart, an assurance that nobody went Government can stand over this behaviour. It is through Shannon. How can our Government on the defensive but should consider a new believe another government which lies on a grand approach and promise the House to follow the scale and denied in every international forum that approach outlined by Senator White. The extraordinary rendition ever happened, despite Government does not like what the Council of overwhelming evidence? That is where we run Europe or the European Parliament has stated into problems. but its only response is to describe it as a Labour I do not agree with Senator Norris and did not Party plot within European institutions. The particularly like the tone of his speech. Government should address the problems high- lighted by these institutions, as suggested by Mr. Mooney: Good. Senator White. This was the subject of the last Labour Party motion, in which we requested that Mr. Ryan: I do not think there are fools on the a Seanad committee be set up to review laws to Government side, and I wish there were. It would ensure rendition is not facilitated. Instead of then be easier to ignore the issue. I believe these going on the defensive, the Government will are naive people who believe there is some eventually have to act. It cannot continue to dis- benefit to Ireland from wobbling about funda- miss reports and argue that they are plots or mental issues when President George Bush wants untrue. There must be action on the issue. us to wobble. Our Government has accepted the From the beginning the Council of Europe, the word of a government which has lied about the European Parliament and bodies such as the Irish fundamental issue when it gives an assurance on Human Rights Commission have indicated that a secondary and related issue. That is the basic accepting diplomatic assurances is not enough. In problem. accepting diplomatic assurances we are not doing The United States Government has lied over what we should be doing as a State to ensure and over again. human rights are protected. We must go further and examine our laws and practices in this Mr. Treacy: It has admitted it carries out extra- respect. The Government should take this under ordinary rendition consideration, and that is the purpose of the Labour Party motion and the highlighted issue as Mr. Ryan: It did not. a whole. It is time the Minister of State took the lead of Mr. Mooney: It did. his colleague, Senator White, and responded to these reports, putting in place measures to ensure Mr. Treacy: It did. we are not in any way complicit in the rendition process, as we are currently. Mr. Ryan: The US Government has never done so. It admitted it transfers prisoners from one Mr. Ryan: I could have a great time if I had 20 place to another but it has never accepted minutes but as I have only five minutes I must be responsibility for any of the cases documented in very selective. I will ignore all the vulgar abuse this report. It has denied they ever happened. about myself and my associations with people in There is an innocence on the Government’s part other countries, as well as other related matters. because it does not want to get itself into a posi- Instead I will concentrate on one or two points. tion of conflict with an obnoxious government in The first is the extraordinary position where Washington. It decided to ignore the evidence every single speaker on the Government side has that extraordinary rendition was being carried indicated they accept the word of the US Govern- out extensively. The Government chose to accept ment. The same is true of the Department of the word of the US. Foreign Affairs. These people are quite sure on the matter. Everybody here has accepted that Mr. Mooney: That is a distorted view. extraordinary rendition has occurred and not one person has spoken up on the Government side An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ryan, without who did not believe it had occurred. interruption. 1641 Human Rights Issues: 31 January 2007. Motion 1642

Mr. Ryan: It is not extraordinary. There is a Mr. Treacy: We are not printing money, how resonance between people such as myself and the does that go? citizens of the United States who feel exactly the same way I do about a discredited president who Mr. Ryan: I never printed any money. told them lies to start a war, who was elected illegally and who has led the country up a most An Cathaoirleach: Order. dangerous and destructive cul-de-sac. That is Ms White: The Senator should look at the big what America represents and what I support. I picture. am not anti-American; I am very proud of the American people as they have shown a willing- Mr. Ryan: Iwishtofinish. ness to face down their government in a way that foreign governments such as ours have failed to Mr. Mooney: The Senator is a great one. do. Proinsias de Rossa, as the only Labour Party Mr. Ryan: I wish to go back to the same issue. member of the European Parliament of 600-odd I have tolerated a fair level of abuse with a people, has extraordinary leverage. On thinking reasonable level of good humour. about it I remembered that he is a Mr. Mooney: The Senator can throw it out 7 o’clock member of the Party of European himself. Socialists, a very formidable, coher- ent and long-established group. I also Mr. Treacy: The Senator has been spraying all remembered that the Government’s major party day. is hanging around with the discredited leftovers of European fascism in an extraordinary ad hoc Mr. Ryan: How can I be expected to believe a arrangement of parties because it cannot make government which denies the fact of extraordi- up its mind whether it is a Socialist or Christian nary rendition when we all know it happened? Democrat party. Therefore Fianna Fa´il has no How can I be expected to accept an assurance allies in the European Parliament and can find about a subsidiary but related issue? nobody to support it when it produces the sort of amendment to the report such as that put forward Mr. Treacy: It did not happen on the island of by Eoin Ryan. That is a fundamental fact. Ireland. Mr. Ryan: So it tells us the truth and it tells Mr. Treacy: The Senator should check the everybody else lies, is that it? record of the parliament over the past few months to see the performance of our leader. Ms White: No.

Mr. Ryan: Proinsias de Rossa has a credibility Mr. Ryan: It lied about it, it has lied over and in the European Parliament because he works over again. with discipline with significant groups. Fianna Fa´il has been afraid since the elections to become Ms Ormonde: Who lied? part of a group because it cannot make up its mind on what it stands for. Nobody knows what Mr. Ryan: The US Government, it denied it the party stands for and when it puts forward ever happened. amendments, nobody votes with it. An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ormonde, please allow Senator Ryan to finish. Mr. Mooney: We wanted to join the Socialists but we were not allowed. Mr. Ryan: It denied it ever happened. I have no more to say on it. Although it denied it ever Mr. Ryan: I had not heard that. There are fun- happened, every Member of this House knows damental tests, the first of which is that the party what happened. People on the Government side does not take bribes from builders. accept the word of the US on a subsidiary but related issue because it is the easy option. An Cathaoirleach: Is that relevant to this debate? Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 29; Nı´l, 17.

Ta´

Brady, Cyprian. Fitzgerald, Liam. Brennan, Michael. Glynn, Camillus. Callanan, Peter. Hanafin, John. Cox, Margaret. Kenneally, Brendan. Daly, Brendan. Kett, Tony. Dardis, John. Kitt, Michael P. Dooley, Timmy. Leyden, Terry. 1643 Pharmacy 31 January 2007. Regulations 1644

Ta´—continued

Lydon, Donal J. O’Brien, Francis. MacSharry, Marc. O’Rourke, Mary. Mansergh, Martin. Ormonde, Ann. Minihan, John. Phelan, Kieran. Mooney, Paschal C. Scanlon, Eamon. Morrissey, Tom. Walsh, Jim. Moylan, Pat. White, Mary M. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s.

Nı´l

Bradford, Paul. Hayes, Brian. Browne, Fergal. Henry, Mary. Burke, Paddy. McDowell, Derek. Burke, Ulick. Norris, David. Coghlan, Paul. O’Meara, Kathleen. Coonan, Noel. Phelan, John. Cummins, Maurice. Ryan, Brendan. Feighan, Frank. Tuffy, Joanna. Finucane, Michael.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Minihan and Moylan; Nı´l, Senators O’Meara and Ryan.

Amendment declared carried. I have received a number of letters in this regard and I sure the Minister has also. One letter Motion, as amended, put and declared carried. from a well-known chemist in Clontarf said that pharmacists’ right to be negotiated for is being An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit undermined. The letter stated: again? This move comes on top of a series of attacks on the ability of a community pharmacist to Ms O’Rourke: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. make a living. The HSE has been avoiding entering talks on medical card payments for Adjournment Matters. three years. Both the Department and the HSE have failed to implement a mediation process, ———— as agreed, on the over 70’s Agreement or to implement the Monitored Dosage System Pharmacy Regulations. agreed in 2001, while I find myself undertaking a large amount of extra work and expense for Mr. Norris: I wish to express my gratitude to patients who cannot manage their medication my colleagues who allowed me to speak first without blister packs, while I am only paid a because I have an engagement. ridiculous basic fee, and no mark up. Pharma- cists feel under constant attack, and our only An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris has five means of negotiation (when the HSE or minutes Department bother to negotiate, or stand over agreements) is now being removed. Mr. Norris: The matter I wish to raise is a ques- tion involving pharmacists and their right to be This is one letter. I will quote from a similar let- represented by a trade union in their wage or fee ter, which reads as follows: negotiations. This right is being denied, which is Dear Senator David Norris, very regrettable. A legal precedent exists in this regard. This is by no means the first time I have I am extremely concerned that the Health come across this issue, which is the crazy notion Service Executive (HSE) is challenging my of competition. Competition should benefit the right as a pharmacist, to have my trade union citizen. It is perfectly clear in this case that it is (the Irish Pharmaceutical Union) negotiate on not doing so, particularly in light of the pharma- my behalf fees for services I provide under cists’ case. The previous case involved actors who public [sic] funded Community Drug Schemes. are the most poorly paid section of the com- This approach, I understand, has the support of munity. Irish Actors Equity and the actors’ trade the Department of Health and Children. This union, SIPTU, got in touch with me because position is totally unacceptable to me and my actors were being denied the right to be rep- colleagues and I am calling on you to have this resented by their union in dealing with the mog- decision reversed immediately. uls of the film industry in getting fees for voice- It is rather flattering that this gentleman thinks I overs and such matters. What we are doing here can have it reversed immediately. I cannot do so, tonight in the Seanad is representing the little but I can make some representations. Once again, man, woman and citizen against big interests and it looks to me as if the Department or the HSE their right to a level playing field. Competition are trying to pick off people individually in order should underpin and not undermine that. to place them in a weak situation. Once again, 1645 Pharmacy 31 January 2007. Regulations 1646 one has a large enterprise, the HSE, refusing to This is the way with everybody. The Minister of deal with a representative group of similar size State is a decent man, but I ask him to take on and power on the other side and picking off the board the arguments and see if we can have an easy targets one after the other. amelioration on this issue because it is the small The final letter I wish to put on the record person who is being affected. comes from Sligo because I do not want it to appear to be a Dublin-centric matter. The writer Minister of State at the Department of of the letter stated that he was a pharmacist Communications, Marine and Natural Resources working in the community. The letter stated: (Mr. J. Browne): I thank Senator Norris for rais- ing the issue and apologise for the absence of the The HSE wish to reform the fee structure for Minister for Health and Children, Deputy these schemes as they have every right to do Harney. so. However, I am extremely angry at the way in which the HSE have chosen to approach this In 2005, against a background of rapidly rising matter. I am an independent Pharmacy owner drugs costs in the general medical services and am normally represented by my union — scheme and community drugs schemes, a process the Irish Pharmaceutical union in matters was put in place by the Cabinet committee on which affect the industry as a whole. The HSE health. This process aimed to examine all aspects is now challenging my right as a pharmacist to of the drugs supply chain and achieve greater have my union negotiate on my behalf fees for value for money in the pricing and supply of the services I provide under the Community drugs and medicines to the health services, con- Drug Schemes. sistent with patient safety and continuity of sup- ply. A HSE-led negotiating team, with represen- The letter stated that this affects not only this tation from the Department of Health and pharmacist in question but also the employees. Children, was set up to advance this process. The letter from the HSE is fascinating and quotes In mid-2006, the negotiating team reached the law. One paragraph of the letter states: agreement with the Irish Pharmaceutical I wish to inform you that the HSE has been Healthcare Association, IPHA, and the Associ- advised that Section 4(1) of the Competition ation of Pharmaceutical Manufacturers of Act 2002 (“the Act”) prohibits all agreements Ireland, APMI. As part of the process, the team between undertakings, decisions by associ- then began discussions with the wholesaler rep- ations of undertakings and concerted practices resentative body, the Pharmaceutical Distribu- which have as their object or effect the restric- tors’ Federation of Ireland, PDF. However, PDF tion of competition, including in particular advised the State that a legal issue prevented it agreements to fix prices, unless the agreement, from negotiating a new margin for supply to com- decision or concerted practice meets certain munity pharmacies. conditions. The HSE sought legal advice, which showed that the legal issue was wider than the PDF posi- That is supposed to be against cartels. It is not tion and had implications under competition law supposed to be against individual pharmacists and for negotiations with community pharma- and poor, unfortunate, out of work actors. There cists. Legal advice obtained by the Department is something lousily wrong here. The Minister of of Health and Children confirmed the HSE State may well say the Government’s hands are advice on this issue. tied and that this is what the Oireachtas passed. If The position is as follows. Section 4(1) of the so, the Oireachtas should re-examine the matter Competition Act 2002 prohibits all agreements because it is absolutely indefensible. between undertakings, decisions by associations The letter goes on to state that “it should be of undertakings and concerted practices which noted, in particular, that the entering into of an have as their object or effect the restriction or agreement, making of a decision or involvement distortion of competition. Those conditions are in a concerted practice in contravention of not met in this case. Wholesalers and pharmacy Section 4(1) of the Act is a criminal offence”. We contractors are undertakings. PDF and the Irish are actually threatening pharmacists, who are Pharmaceutical Union, IPU, are associations of respectable and decent people, and out of work undertakings and come under section 4(1) of the actors with criminality because they want to be Act. The coming together of wholesalers under represented by a union. This is a frightful the PDF or pharmacy contractors under the IPU situation and I can tell the Minister of State that to negotiate prices would be a breach of section I was here when this legislation was passed and 4(1). Acting in contravention of section 4(1) is a that this was not in the mind of the Oireachtas. criminal offence and would expose those parties, We did not think we were going to penalise the their directors, managers and officers to the risk small person and have a skewed playing field. It of criminal prosecution. In light of this advice, it is perfectly clear this is what we have here. is not possible for the HSE to negotiate with the PDF or the IPU on fees or margins. An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s time is up. In the interim, in order to determine new arrangements for wholesale services that comply Mr. Norris: That is fairly appropriate because I with competition law, the negotiating team has think I have made the principal points. I know begun a public consultation process, including an the Minister of State’s script has been already invitation to make submissions, coupled with an prepared by civil servants for him to regurgitate. independent economic analysis of the Irish and 1647 Inland 31 January 2007. Fisheries 1648

[Mr. J. Browne.] concern to them is that of leases for salmon fish- EU markets. This process assumes continuation ing clubs. As the Minister of State is well aware, of current service levels. In view of the impli- salmon fishing clubs have licences to fish which cations of the legal advice, the HSE wrote to all are renewed on a yearly basis. This is not accept- community pharmacy contractors, setting out the able to fishing organisations like the Ballina position in detail and indicating that the HSE is Salmon Anglers Association. This organisation is constrained from negotiating fees with the IPU, in place for 47 years. FISTA is affiliated to 70 for the reasons outlined. The union has been fully clubs nationwide. Together, the two bodies con- briefed on the legal position. stitute a strong lobby. The negotiating team will consider, following It is high time for the North Western Regional the wholesale sector review, how best to address Fisheries Board and the Government to give this issue for pharmacy contractor services. those fishing clubs long leases of seven to ten Meanwhile, the negotiating team has been engag- years. Currently, the clubs operate on a one-year ing with the IPU in an open and constructive dia- renewable licence for sections of rivers controlled logue. Both the Department of Health and Chil- by the State. I urge the Minister to consider issu- dren and the HSE recognise the IPU as the ing long renewable leases to salmon fishing clubs collective representative body for its members. like the Ballina Salmon Anglers Association. It However, negotiations with the union must com- has put a strong case and is providing a great ply with the law. All contractual matters other service to the Ballina area which attracts many than fees may be negotiated. The negotiating fishermen. This helps the local economy in terms team is considering proposals from the IPU for of bed and breakfasts, restaurants, hotels, bars resolution of this issue, with a view to agreeing a etc. I hope the Minister of State will accede to process for contract review that would comply the requests by FISTA and the Ballina Salmon fully with competition law. Anglers Association to meet with them to resolve Accordingly, the Minister is satisfied there is, the issues I have raised. and will continue to be, ongoing dialogue with the IPU as the representative body for pharmacists, Mr. J. Browne: I thank Senator Paddy Burke within the constraints of the legal advice received. for raising this issue. As Members of the House I assure the House the Minister wishes to see that will be aware, the Government’s primary motiv- dialogue proceeding in a constructive manner. ation in its decision to align future management of the wild salmon fishery with the scientific Mr. Norris: I thank the Minister of State for his advice and introduce the appropriate regulations constructive reply. I have no brief for pharma- to cease mixed stock fishing, is the conservation ceutical combines. I am all in favour of the con- of the wild salmon species, which has long been sumer, as I am one myself. I am currently taking regarded as one of Ireland’s most prized fish, pills. It was stated the recognised union can nego- valued as a cultural, recreational and economic tiate for everything except fees. That is nonsense. resource. In light of what I said, I appeal to the Minister of It is vital to afford every protection to remain- State to urge the Minister for Health and Chil- ing salmon stocks and to clearly prioritise con- dren to address this anomaly. I thank the House servation over catch. Under the Fisheries Acts, for its indulgence. primary responsibility for the conservation, pro- tection, management, development and improve- Inland Fisheries. ment of inland fisheries rests with the regional fisheries boards. Under the Fisheries Acts the Mr. P. Burke: I thank the Cathaoirleach for regional fisheries boards have the statutory func- allowing me to put this matter on the cla´r. I wel- tion of ensuring any fishery in their possession, or come the Minister of State, Deputy John Browne. that is placed under their care and management This matter was raised with me by Councillor by the Central Fisheries Board, is managed, con- Michelle Mulhern in conjunction with FISTA and served, protected and developed in accordance the Ballina Salmon Anglers. Both bodies with development plans for inland fisheries. The expressed great concern about this matter. On boards are also statutorily obliged to have regard numerous occasions they sought meetings with to the particular role and contribution of angling the Minister for Communications, Marine and clubs and associations in the sustainable manage- Natural Resources to resolve the situation. These ment and development to the public benefit of groups are worried about a number of issues. Of State, public and other inland fisheries in their prime concern is the fact that only one salmon fisheries regime. can be caught per person before 12 May. This is While I am not aware of the specific case to having a detrimental effect on fishing in the which the Senator referred concerning Ballina, I region, especially in the Moy basin area. This am aware of demands by anglers for access to stipulation means no fishermen come to the area public fisheries managed by State bodies, includ- prior to 12 May. This is farcical when one con- ing the fisheries boards and the National Parks siders draft net fishermen can go down the river and Wildlife Service and the efforts that were after 12 May and catch salmon almost at will at being undertaken to agree the requisite legal the mouth of the river. agreements. Under the Government’s guidelines Another issue of concern to the groups is what on the disposal of State assets, Departments and they see as the inadequate level of protection pro- State agencies are obliged to provide certain safe- vided on rivers. Perhaps the issue that is of most guards in the State’s interest in the property 1649 Schools Building 31 January 2007. Projects 1650 rights which are to be transferred to the manage- salmon anglers. While I know the fishermen can ment of the angling clubs. It is necessary to follow fish, the licence is renewed annually. I ask the the advice of the Chief State Solicitor’s Office in Minister of State to examine this issue prior to preparing the detailed agreement and to include his meeting with the deputation. conditions requiring the application of proper fishery management practices commensurate Mr. Browne: I will meet the deputation and with the management of the fishery, in particular have a discussion. in those fisheries located in a special area of con- servation. To comply with competition guidelines, Schools Building Projects. the same conditions are included in all agree- ments for the management of the beats on the Mr. Kitt: I thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for river. allowing me raise this matter and the Minister of Draft leases drawn up by the Chief State Solici- State for coming in to reply. I wish to share time tor are based on best legal practice and reflect the with Senator Ulick Burke. management requirements arising from the State bodies’ responsibilities to protect State assets. I An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. am advised the draft leases are no more stringent than any other leases that issue in respect of State Mr. Kitt: With other public representatives, properties, including fisheries, throughout the including Senator Ulick Burke, I attended a country and are in keeping with current inland meeting last Monday in St. Catherine’s Hall, fisheries management policy. Aughrim, Ballinasloe, County Galway, concern- I am also aware of the proposals prepared by ing St. Catherine’s national school. The condition the Northern Regional Fisheries Board for the of the school, as outlined at the meeting, is appal- management and development of State fisheries ling. The school which is 59 years old this year in County Donegal. This plan was the subject of has an enrolment of 120 pupils. Parents and a discussion document, Outline Proposal for teachers say the school is a health and safety Development and Management of Angling in hazard. Donegal, prepared in support of the Donegal A headline in the Connaught Tribune last week County Council County Tourism Plan on which read, “School needs a Pied Piper to keep the mice there have been ongoing negotiations. at bay”. That is one issue that is causing major The efforts of the Central Fisheries Board are concern. Other issues are weeping walls, inad- aimed at facilitating local and visiting anglers and equate ventilation and insulation, overused toilets to guarantee the long-term health and sus- and sewage coming up in the school yard. For tainability of the fisheries. that reason there is great concern that there is not I understand that discussions take place based a decision to have a new school in Aughrim. on river catchment areas with a view to reaching If the original route of the new N6 motorway agreement with the recognised local angling clubs for each catchment. The management agreement had come through Aughrim it would have under discussion provides for shared access for necessitated demolishing the school. However the local and visiting anglers, allowing the fishery to route was changed following which the Depart- ment said it would repair the school and offered be run on a sustainable basis into the future. Resi- \ dents living within the catchment area cannot, I 300,000 under the pilot scheme. That amount understand, be refused membership of the local would not be adequate to provide what was club. needed in terms of additional classrooms. It is my understanding that the protests by anglers What we need is a new school. I understand the in County Kerry in the past relate to demands for Department will agree to an eight-teacher school. access to public fisheries which are managed by However, as the Department has not asked a the National Parks and Wildlife Service on behalf technical team to visit the school I hope it will do of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage so in the new few weeks. No decision will be and Local Government. I am informed that the made on progress until there is a visit from the local salmon anglers are allowed to continue to technical team. It is not too much to ask that the manage the fishery on an ad hoc basis pending technical team visits the school as soon as pos- the completion of the requisite legal agreement sible. I realise the Department officials in and are not, therefore, excluded from using the Tullamore are busy but conditions at this school fishery. are the worst any inspector has reported on It is the Government’s strongly held view that recently. our wild salmon stock is a national asset, which Six years ago the school had an enrolment of must be conserved and protected, as well as being 60 or 70 pupils. Since then many new houses have exploited as a resource by us all on a sustainable been built in Ballinasloe and south Roscommon basis. and many new pupils have enrolled in the school. I will be happy to meet the Ballina anglers dur- Little money has been spent by the Department ing the next couple of weeks. I will talk to the on the school since it was built in 1948. As Senator with a view to agreeing a date for the explained at the meeting, there is great difficulty meeting. in providing services for special needs children in the classrooms. The school has three classrooms, Mr. P. Burke: I thank the Minister of State for three Portakabins to accommodate five main- acceding to my request to meet the Ballina stream teachers. When I was teaching I never saw 1651 The 31 January 2007. Adjournment 1652

[Mr. Kitt.] Modernising facilities in our 3,200 primary and a school with such small over-crowded classrooms 750 post primary schools as well as responding to which is a health and safety hazard. emerging needs in areas of rapid population I hope the Minister of State can report progress growth is a major priority for the Government. on this school and that conditions will improve Since taking office, this Government has shown for students and teachers. A very active parents focused determination to improve the condition committee succeeded in getting 200 people into of our school buildings and to ensure the appro- St. Catherine’s hall last Monday to complain priate facilities are in place to enable the imple- about the way in which the school has been neg- mentation of a broad and balanced curriculum. lected and the need for a resolution. I hope the St. Catherine’s national school in Aughrim is a Minister of State has some good news. co-educational primary school. Enrolments at the school have increased from 90 in 2002 to 119 cur- Mr. U. Burke: I thank Senator Kitt for sharing rently. The school was selected as one which time. Nobody can emphasise sufficiently well the appeared to be suitable for delivery of its building conditions at this school. On the issue of health project under the permanent accommodation scheme 2005 and the school authority was offered and safety and the requirement for a standard \ school size, the school is one-third of the size of funding of 300,000 to build two mainstream the school required. classrooms and two resource rooms. The school authority accepted this offer and proceeded with Senator Kitt referred to special needs children. the planning of this project while, at the same When we were shown a slide of a special needs time appealing the allocation under the scheme. student in a small classroom with 28 other chil- Subsequently, having considered its options dren with special assistants as well as the class under the scheme, the school authority notified teacher we realised the total neglect and lack of the Department that it had decided to withdraw concern by the Minister and the Department if from the scheme and requested that it be con- they allow this situation to continue. There have sidered for inclusion in the main programme for been delays. delivery by the traditional method, in line with The history of planning in this project is unbe- the project’s priority band rating. lievable as are the Department’s reasons for post- Before progressing the project further and to poning, changing, and dillydallying. What has ensure any capital funding being provided is happened is on the record. None of the new aids appropriate to meet the school’s long-term and support materials available to schools for accommodation needs, it was necessary to review teaching can be used in St. Catherine’s national the long-term projected staffing figure on which school in Aughrim because there is no storage the school’s accommodation needs will be based. space. Teachers take them away and store them Officials in the Department of Education and in their homes, garages or wherever. They cannot Science have just recently completed a re-assess- use them because of the inadequacy of space. ment of projected enrolments and have deter- There is one computer in a classroom and the mined that the long-term projected staffing for St. students queue to access it. It is like queueing to Catherine’s national school, Aughrim will be for get into for Croke Park. a principal plus eight mainstream teachers and The request is for a new six to eight classroom this has been notified to the school authorities. school which the Minister will decide. There is The project will be progressed in the context of the clear advantage in that there is a site on which the school building and modernisation to build the school. There should be no delay on programme. that score. Building and construction could take I thank the Senators once again for raising this place without any disruption. As Senator Kitt has matter and allowing me to outline the progress done, I ask that immediate steps be taken to pro- being made under the school building and mod- ceed with whatever other planning procedure has ernisation programme and the position of St. to take place in regard to the provision of a new Catherine’s national school. I will bring to the school. attention of the Minister the views of both Senators regarding the technical team becoming Mr. Browne: I thank the Senators for raising actively involved in progressing the school. the issue as it affords me the opportunity to out- Mr. Kitt: I thank the Minister for confirming line to the House the Government’s strategy for there will be a principal and eight mainstream capital investment in education projects and the teachers in the new school. I urge him to send the position regarding the development of education technical team to Aughrim in the next few weeks. provision in St. Catherine’s national school, We cannot wait any longer. Aughrim. I apologise for the absence of the Minister, The Seanad adjourned at 7.40 p.m. until Deputy Hanafin. 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 1 February 2007.