REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, May 21, 1974 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: The Governor (Sir John Paul, of section 2 of the Acts of Tynwald (Emer- G.C,M.G., O.B.E., M.C.). In the Council: gency Promulgation) Act 1916, the Royal The Attorney-General (Mr. A. C. Luft), Assent was given to the following Act on Messrs. I. B. Bolton, O.B.E., E. N. Crowe, the 26th March, 1974 —Fishing Vessels O.B.E., R. E. S. Kerruish, J. C. Nivison, (Safety Provisions) (Isle of Man) Act 1974; W. E. Quayle, H. H. Radcliffe, with Mr. and the following Acts on the 10th April P. I. Hulme, Clerk of the Council. In the 1974—The Children and Young Persons Keys: The Speaker (Mr. H. C. Kerruish, (Amendment) Act 1974 and the Unsolicited O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. Anderson, G. M. Goods and Services (Isle of Man) Act 1974. Kermeen, J. C. Clucas, P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs. J. R. Creer, E. Ranson, P. A. Spittal!, A. H. BILLS FOR SIGNATURE. Simcocks, M.B.E., G. T. Crellin, T. C. Faragher, Mrs. E. C. Quayle, Messrs. W. A. The Governor: Turning to item 2 of the Moore, J. 3. Bell, E. C. Irving, Miss K. E. Agenda we have five Bills for signature. Cowin, Messrs. G. V. H. Kneale, G. A. The Agriculture (Safety, Health and Wel- Devereau, R. MacDonald, P. G. Hislop, fare Provisions) Bill; Supplementary Benefit, Sir Henry Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., National Insurance, Etc. (Miscellaneous with Mr. T. E. Kermeen, Clerk of Tynwald. Provisions) Bill; Domicile and Matrimonial Proceedings Bill; Company Registration Tax Bill; Gaming, Betting and Lotteries (Casino) (Amendment) Bill. If hon. members agree, APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE. we will have these signed while we continue The Governor: I have apologies for with our business, provided this does not absence from the learned Deemster and the cause any undue inconvenience. Is that hon. member of Council Mr. Corkhill and agreed? the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Howarth. It was agreed.

PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT. ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT. The Governor: I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. The Governor: Hon. members, 1 have to announce that in accordance with the terms The Clerk: I lay before the Court:—

Apologies for Absence. — Announcement of Royal Assent. — Bills for Signature. — Papers Laid Before the Court. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T717

Police Establishment — Report of the of sale of an additional condition specifying Select Committee of Tynwald. that the land must be utilised for the housing purposes of the Castletown and Standing Orders Committee—Report on Malew Elderly Persons' Housing Commit- a point of order raised on the relevance of tee). Approval dated 3rd May 1974 to the an amendment to a motion. following Petition—(2) Petition of the Bride Parish Commissioners for approval of the Pharmacy and Poisons Acts 1947 to 1954 purchase from the Isle of Man Highway and — Poisons Rules 1974. Transport Board, for a nominal considera- tion of twenty-five pence (25p), of a small Game Acts 1882 to 197:1 — Game Order plot of land comprising a portion of the 1974. Car Park Field situate in Bride Village in the Parish of Bride, for the purpose of Companies Act 1961 —Companies (Fees) erecting thereon an office and public con- Order 1974. veniences. (Subject to the terms of. the amended agreement attached to the Petition Value Added Tax— Value Added Tax and marked with the letter "B"). (Isle of Man) (General) (No. 2) Order 1974.

Consumer Protection (Isle of Man) Act 1965 — Heating Appliances (Fireguards) AGENDA No. 2 — PAPERS LAID Regulations 1974. BEFORE THE COURT.

Concessionary Fares for Pensioners - The Governor: With the concurrence of Scheme for Concessionary Fares for Pen- the 'hon. Court I now propose that we sioners. should turn to Agenda No. 2. Is that agreed? Employment—Statement by the Chairman' of the Employment Advisory Committee. It was agreed.

Animal Report —Eighth Report of the The Governor: call upon the Clerk to Isle of Man Health Services Board for the. lay papers. period 1st April 1971 to 31st March 1973. The Clerk: I lay before the Court:— Local Government Board's Approval to the following Petitions — Approval dated• Government Treasurer's Estimates —The 19th April 1974 to the following Petition - Annual Estimates of the Government (1) Petition of the Castletown and Malew. Treasurer, 1974/75. Elderly Persons' Housing Committee fort approval to the purchase of a plot of land,1 being part of the Bowling Green Estate in the Town of Castletown arid lying between: BUDGET — STATEMENT BY Bowling Green Road and Victoria Road,' THE GOVERNOR. from the Castletown and District Over 60's Club, for the sum of twenty-five pence (25p). The Governor: Hon. members of the (Subject to the inclusion in the agreement Court, the Budget for the year 1974-75. It

Agenda No. 2—Papers Laid Before the Court. Budget—Statement by the Governor. T71/3 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

is my statutory duty to present to Tynwald That His Excellency the Lieutenant- a statement containing the Budget pro- Governor's Budget Statement be received and necessary action be taken to give effect posals, but following the procedure of my thereto. predecessor in office I shall leave the ex- position of the details to the Chairman of Your Excellency, today I have the honour the Finance Board. With regard to income of making a Budget speech to Tynwald with tax, the standard rate of tax and non- Your Excellency presiding for the first time resident tax will remain at 21-25 per cent., on such an occasion. May I suggest that the but certain allowances in respect of this tax present satisfactory state of government will be increased as follows. The maximum finance augers well for the future of the amount of earned income upon which an Island. There have been, over the last few allowance is given will be raised by £600 to years, periods of doubt and uncertainty £3,600. Personal allowances will be increased arising mainly from the protracted negotia- for married persons by £75 to £850 and for tions on entry to the Common Market, single persons by £50 to £550. Children's but since the successful conclusion of the allowances will be raised depending on age, negotiations, the Island's prosperity is again the allowance for a child over 16 by £20 increasing. Our income tax receipts have to £250, that for a child over 11 but not 16 reflected this improvement in the economic by £25 to £200, and that for a child under climate. In 1973-74 the yield from income II by £15 to £160. The maximum allowance tax was £6.3 million, an increase of £1.5 in respect of the earned income of a wife million, or 30 per cent. over the previous will be raised by £60 to £300. There will be year. In the forecast for 1974-75 receipts an increase of £200 in the sum on which a from income tax have been increased by deduction is allowed in respect of age, thus El million to a total of £7.3 million. The making the figure £1,000. Marginal and increase is over 100 per cent. on receipts other reliefs which may be affected by the for 1971-1972. Last year also saw a signifi- foregoing changes will also be varied. Sub- cant increase in Customs and Excise duties ject to the necessary legislation being passed to almost £7 million, and as the full impact by the Branches the Income Tax Act 1970 of V.A.T. is reflected in anticipated receipts will be amended so as to extend to female in the current year, the yield will rise to claimants the deductions allowable under nearly £9 million. From 1972-73 to 1974-75 section 39. In conclusion, I record my receipts from indirect taxes will have risen sincere appreciation and thanks to the by 30 per Cent. Reflected, of course, in the Finance Board, and indeed to all the Boards figures are the recent increases in duties and to the Civil Service for the manner which include the extension of V.A.T. to in which they have carried out their duties confectionery and petrol, increased duty on during the past year. I call upon the Chair- whisky and gin and on other spirits, 10p man of the Finance Board. extra on a bottle of wine, beer up by 1p per pint and cigarettes by 5p a packet of 20. The buoyancy of tax revenue, plus a con- siderable rise in investment income, pro- BUDGET — CHAIRMAN OF THE duced a surplus on the 1973-74 account of FINANCE BOARD. £2.2 million and a total balance of £3.7 mil- lion is brought forward into 1974-75. Unfor- Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to tunately, the position on the capital account move:— is riot so impressive, due to the effects of

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T719

our Usury Act. The estimated expenditure Government. .1 have suggested that we of the Boards and departments for 1974-75 should be paying so far as possible as we shows an increase of £4.15 million to be met go, and not passing debts on to future from taxation; this represents an increase generations, although I do recognise that of 35 per cent. in one year. A few years Government is creating assets which will ago demands of such magnitude could not be of benefit in the future. Over the last have been contemplated, and whilst much four years the amount we have been able of the increased demand arises from in- to borrow has been less than the money flation, there is also a considerable amount re-lent by Government to industry, agricul- due to expansion or improved standards of ture, fishing and for house purchase, and service. I would remind hon. members that, the necessity to provide incentives for in the long term, such improvements in private investment has also been an impor- standards can only be met from an expand- tant factor in deciding on the extent of ing economy. Inflation is the more serious Government borrowing. Last year rising problem, as the whole world is discovering. world interest rates carried market rates The determination of countries to receive well above the lawful rate under the Usury an adequate price for their natural resources Act, and on the capital account we were and their agricultural produce has had con- faced with a very serious problem which siderable repercussions on Western Europe, was overcome partially by utilising some including the Isle of Man. It has been said money from sinking funds and partially by on so many occasions that this Island is the inability of Boards to spend the money constantly subject to outside influences over they had been allocated. The folly of the which it has no control. The escalation of Usury Act was never more plainly illus- oil prices is a perfect example of the extent trated, and it is clear that projected Govern- to which external influences can affect the ment borrowing for new schemes will have Island. Our total dependence on oil to pro- to be curtailed until market rates of interest vide electricity intensifies the pressure upon fall below the Usury Act limit. Equally, our purses both nationally and individually. we know that it is essential to continue It was the rapid rise in prices generally Government capital schemes. Our inter- which prompted Tynwald, in April, to raise vention in the economy with loans and the rates of supplementary benefits, and grants to individuals and organisations in the there will be a further rise in July along basic sectors is substantial, and any dramatic with increases in retirement pensions and cut-back would have repercussions right other benefits. So far, as a Government, through the Island, with adverse effects on we have steered away from general sub- a large number of people. In addition, the sidies on food and other essentials and expanding population generates demands for concentrated help on those people whose extra investment in Government capital financial need is proven. There is no early schemes and Government services. Finally, end of inflation in sight, and when we look the increasing reliance upon Government to at the substantial rise in our receipts we provide housing accommodation for pur- must remember that our expenditure is chase or rent must be taken into account. rising also at a very fast rate. For many The total amount included in the estimates years I have expressed my opinion on the for housing alone is £1.9 million. Quite dangers of relying too heavily on borrow- apart from the problems of financing new ing to finance the capital expenditures of projects in the present year, the Treasury

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T720 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

has to replace Di- million of loans falling grants to manufacturing industry aimed at due for repayment. Naturally it is hoped stimulating capital investment per employee that many existing loans will be renewed, rather than creating additional jobs. The but in the present unsettled state of inter- benefits of these investments, in terms of national monetary affairs it is not safe to be tax receipts, are expected in two or three too optimistic. It will be appreciated that year's time. Strengthening manufacturing the decisions on policy regarding capital industry will enable the economy to be expenditure were not easily made, but the diversified as well as to expand. Our tradi- conclusion was reached that a fairly high tional industries of agriculture, fishing and level of capital expenditure was necessary to tourism continue to receive considerable support the expansion of the economy. financial support from Government, but However, there will be no borrowing for neither is likely to make a greatly improved 1974-75 expenditure, and a transfer of £4-3 contribution to the economy in real terms million will be made from revenue towards in the immediate future. Spending on educa- the cost of capital expenditure. The balance, tion, health and social security will be £9-25 of monies required will come from repay- million, which is almost equal to the total ments into capital funds. Our present net spending on all voted services in 1972-73, debt is almost £11.7 million; that figure is which is only two years ago. If we are to calculated after taking into account our cope with such escalation in costs, the sinking funds. Five years ago the net debt expanding sectors of the economy must bear was £8-7 million, which means that our net the brunt of the burden. For several years debt has increased by £3 million, although the development of manufacturing industry, for most of the period substantial contri- the inflow of new residents and the ex- butions were being transferred from revenue pansion of the construction industry have into capital. Government has advanced enabled us to maintain and improve our considerable sums by way of loans and if standard of living during a period in which allowance is made for this money, approxi, the traditional industries have been unable mately E6-7 million, the debt to be financed to grow to any marked extent. For the mainly from taxation, falls to just over future, there is an additional sector, the L4.9 million or £85.50 per head of popular financial sector, which can make a sub- tion. Five years ago the comparable figures stantial contribution to the economy and at were E5.25 million and £100 per head of the same time impose very few demands population. The improvement in the position upon the Island's resources. This sector emphasises the advantages of financing of the economy should be given every capital expenditure. In my opinion this is encouragement to expand, whilst at the a most satisfactory trend and I would wish same time it must be recognised that con- to see it continue until the Government is trols are necessary to protect the investor, to completely independent of external borrow- protect the bona fide institutions and the ing. This is a long term aim but one which Island's reputation. Having considered the I consider will be of lasting benefit, and to estimates and listened to the views of Tyn- achieve it will need considerable financial wald, Finance Board decided to recommend discipline. In the revenue account is the that the standard rate of income tax and evidence of rapidly expanding receiptS non-resident tax should remain at 21-25 per matched to a large degree by rising demands cent. Everyone is aware that, with inflation, for expenditure. Provision is included in the money incomes have risen; this is drawing Budget for a considerable expansion in into the income tax net people whom it was

-. 1. ....■■■ •••••••••■•••■•■■■ Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T721

not intended should have to pay the lax. to the end of the proposals regarding direct To relieve those at the bottom of the income taxation which reduce, to some extent, the scale, the main personal tax allowances will burden on all taxpayers. The action already be raised. The married person's allowance taken to increase supplementary benefits will will be £850, previously £775, and the bring some relief to the majority of people allowance for a single person will go up by on very low incomes. For a long time there £50 to £550. Inflation has reduced also the has been general dissatisfaction with the value of other allowances, and it is proposed considerable differences in the level of rate to increase children's allowances. They will in the £ levied by the local authorities. be—for a child under 11 years old £160, Towns often provide services which the previously £145; for a child aged 11-16 country districts may fail to provide, leaving years £200, previously £175; for a child Government to step in and make up the over 16 years old £250, previously £230. deficiency in services. In the town, the cost Overall this is an increase of approximately of the service is met by the ratepayer, 10 per cent. in all these allowances. The but in the defaulting country district the maximum married woman's earned income taxpayer shoulders the burden. These dis- allowance will now be £300 instead of £240; crepancies, although they have become part this allowance has doubled in two years. of the Island scene, arc unsatisfactory, and Frequently the amount of this allowance is it is proposed that steps be taken to ensure criticised because it is lower than its that the division of the burden shall be more equivalent in the United Kingdom. What equitable as between ratepayers in different the critics ignore is the availability on the parts of the Island. This year the deficiencies Island of earned income relief which has on local authority housing schemes will disappeared in the United Kingdom, and a qualify for 100 per cent. reimbursement married woman can, in some circumstances, from Government, previously the figure receive a tax free income in the Isle of was 75 per cent.; in return there will be Man higher than she would in the United rationalisation of housing policies within the Kingdom. In passing I would mention that Island. Later it is hoped to extend this the allowances here are higher than the principle to highways, with local authorities corresponding allowances in the Channel acting as agents for Government and being Islands. To help those who are supporting fully reimbursed for expenditure on roads. relatives, Tynwald has already decided that Both these moves will reduce the rates the allowances for dependent relatives will levied by the towns, whilst a proposal to be be raised to take into consideration rises contained in a local government Bill seeks in retirement pensions, and certain other powers for the Local Government Board to allowances and marginal reliefs will also levy rates for local government services be revised. Finally, the maximum earned provided by them in particular areas. The income allowance is to be increased. This latter suggestion will tend to push up rates particular allowance has been static since levied in country areas. These proposals 1970 whilst earnings have been rising, and generally will reduce the disparity in the it should be reviewed so as to reflect some rates levied by the various local authorities. of the increase in the general level of All ratepayers will benefit from the decision earnings. The maximum allowance is in- to phase out the education rate within the creased to £900, at present £750, but the next seven years and consideration will be rate of allowance, i.c. one-fourth earned given to the abandonment of the rate for income, remains the same. That brings me fire services. Future prospects for the Island

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T722 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

appear to be good, and 1 can see no reason Society creates new demands and old stan- to be pessimistic but, equally, there is dards disappear, Government must be con- no justification for extravagance in Govern- stantly aware of such changes and challenges. ment spending. Our financial resources arc We have to realise that our prosperity is not precious, as are our other resources, and spread evenly through the community and control is essential if we are to gain full that some sections of the community will advantage from our prosperity. Housing always need help. At the same time we must continues to he a very pressing problem. remember that those in need will change and The demand for rented housing accom- this Court must constantly re-appraise its modation is rising as the population in- policies in distributing help and assistance to creases, and the rapid escalation in the cost various sections of the community. In con- of housing adds to the difficulties of those clusion, I wish once more to record my own purchasing a house for the first time. sincere appreciation and thanks to my Housing is one of the basic needs of man colleagues on the Finance Board, and on and every endeavour must be made to behalf of the Board, to thank the Govern- satisfy it. We cannot hope to stem the ment Treasurer and all his staff for their inflation in prices, but we must re-examine support during the past year. the schemes and the methods by which funds are made available to house pur- Mr. Devereau: Your Excellency, I beg to chasers. Finance Board intends to review second. the Housing Advances Scheme in the im- Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I am ex- mediate future and will be seeking to give pecting to sec many members getting to increased assistance to those hoping to buy their feet today and saying what a mar- homes. However, I think we must remember vellous Budget this is — £4,300,000 available that our present interest rate of 7 per cent. to transfer from revenue account, increases on housing advances is a very favourable in personal allowances and children's one in comparison with market rates. allowances, an increase in the maximum Nevertheless we are facing severe housing amount of earnings on which the earned problems and our present scheme must be income allowance of one-quarter will be reviewed. T should however point out that allowed from £3,000 to £3,600 per annum - the cost to Government in interest of ad- and so on. It all seems marvellous and so vancing money at 7 per cent. and in some it is if you are on the right side of the cases less than 7 per cent. will cost £100,000 line and pay income tax, but if you are on in the current year. This is the difference the wrong side of that line and do not earn between the rates at which the money is enough on which to pay income tax, what advanced and the pool rate on all our was there in this Budget for you? The borrowings for this year of. about 8* per answer is absolutely nothing. Because of this cent. I think we should also remember that I think this is a rotten Budget, it only tends the pool rate of 8+ per cent. is likely to to widen the differential between those on increase as time goes by by reason of our each side of the income tax line, but then having to secure new money by borrowing. we arc told that if anyone below the income We have solved the problems we had in the tax line is having a hard time they can 1950's. The major one was unemployment, always apply to the Board of Social Security but this, in itself, is no ground for com- for supplementary benefits. What a big deal. placency. Society is constantly changing and Before they get anything they have to new problems take the place of the old ones. expose their souls and their savings books

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T723

•■•11.• •••••• ■■•■• •••••• ■■■• and then, with a bit of luck, they might get abolished and it should be abolished im- an extra couple of bob. What a difference if mediately and this Budget proves quite con- you are above the income tax line, Tynwald clusively once again that this rate could will hand you out these extra allowances have been abolished without any imposition by resolution without you having to notify on any other form of taxation with ample your assets, but if you are below the line money available to wipe this slate out you have to queue up with your begging- without an increase in taxation which has bowl, It is time we started adopting a always been threatened in the past. There "Robin Hood" attitude in this Court instead is one matter in the pink book that several of the reverse, as we are doing at present. members have brought my attention to and There are so many ways that this Budget that is on page 2, the item No. 28, Post could have helped the lower income groups, Office Philately estimate £50,000; probable for example we could have had children's £50,000. Now in case people think that that allowance given to the first child and an is the amount of profit that the Post Office increase for all other children. The wealthy has made since it was started this figure is would have had to return part of these as most misleading. I would inform members they have to declare it as earned income. that we have paid entirely for the buildings, We could have had a couple of higher stages which was an amount of about £150,000. of income tax so that the wealthier would We have also put aside in the general fund have to pay a comparatively higher rate of £100,000 as we were required to do by of tax and this extra money could have the Post Office Act and this gives an been used to subsidise some of the basic . entirely different picture. We have also foodstuffs. The Education Rate, I am glad notified Finance Board that beside the to see at last this year that the Chairman of £50,000 which we had handed over to them the Finance Board is recognising that the in cash by the 31st March and which was rates are an imposition on people. This is the only figure which they could include in something that has been denied in the past the pink hook, that we have a substantial and nobody bothered about rates, but it is amount of money still to hand over to being brought home very, very forcibly to them. 1 am hoping that we will have our people now that rates arc a terrible burden first report and audited accounts available on people and especially when you consider to present to this Court before the cnd of that rates are imposed without any con-: this Parliamentary session and then people sideration of a person's income. This i. will be able to appreciate the true position, quite wrong and it is time we abolished rates so that is just to prevent any question as a means of raising money and based all arising on this £50,000. Just in case anybody our ideas on taxation on what a person is; thinks that Philately will be making a profit earning or what assets he has. It is suggested and the postal services will lose, when our that we have already agreed to abolish the report is presented they arc going to be Education Rate over a period of seven years pleasantly surprised, and this will be staged out, well I know a resolution was carried to that effect in this. Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I was in- Court, but if people think they are now, terested in the opening remarks of the hon. going to sit complacently back and that member who has just resumed his seat, nobody in this Court is going to move because I think what will be particularly further on this they have got another think interesting today will he to see which mem- coming to them. This rale should he bers do state their general accord with the

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T724 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

Budget which is before us today. I am afraid child allowances. There is, in my view, no 1 side with the previous speaker and 1 do possible justification for raising our child so with some regret, but if I may I would allowances this year by an average of only like to just touch on, as it were, the good £20 per child when, as recently as two news and 1 particularly liked, on the second months ago, the United Kingdom increased page of the hon. Chairman's statement, the their already higher allowances by an reaffirmation of this Government's deter- average of £40. This was done long after the mination to steer away from general sub- United Kingdom changed over to a system sidies on food and other essentials and to of abolishing earned income relief and pro- concentrate help, as he says, on those people viding higher personal allowances to com- whose financial need is proven. I think this pensate. As a result of today's proposals is something which cannot be stressed too Manx child allowances will be £70 per child strongly. I was also pleased, Your Excel- lower, on average, than the current United lency, that at the conclusion of your par- Kingdom rates. I should like to have seen ticular statement to Tynwald you did record the taxing of foreign income on its net the sincere appreciation to the Civil Service amount without any provision for double without whom clearly we certainly would not taxation relief. At present, Manx tax is be in a position to present anything to Tyn- assessed on the gross income but full al- wald or decide any financial matters. Whilst lowance is made for any foreign tax already on that particular general topic I should like suffered and if this foreign tax amounts to to refer, at this stage, not to Civil Servants, 20 per cent. or above it effectively cancels but to the retirement at the end of last out the Manx assessment and I am ab- month of Mr. W. A. Crowe, who has been solutely confident that taxing the net income responsible for the Government audit for would increase our yield from income tax many years, indeed he has been associated considerably and incidentally we would then with this work for nearly 40 years. I would he adopting the system used by almost all like to place on record our appreciation of other tax authorities. Another example of a this service over such a long period, during way in which I feel we could have raised which the work of the various Boards of more revenue is to tax, or impose a duty Tynwald, local authorities and indeed of on property transfers over and above £10,000 Government itself has been extended almost perhaps or on a sliding scale. This, 1 believe, beyond comparison. This Budget, to me, at would be another useful addition in our tax first sight, had the appearance of a give- armoury. Recently Tynwald passed the away, but then upon looking more closely I Company Registration Tax Bill, this pro- found that there was little or nothing for vides for a flat rate tax of £200 and whilst those people who are below the tax paying that Bill has not yet received the Royal threshold. For the taxpayers too, of course, Assent, it is well known that before we it has broken no new ground. It seems to be even debated it Jersey raised its similar tax the mixture as before with the changes, to £300. Whilst I do not advocate that we where they occur, where they regularly should necessarily follow Jersey right up to occur. To explain what I mean, sir, I should the hilt, I do think that an indication could have liked to have seen some imagination well have been made here today that we displayed in seeking out more new ways of intended moving further up that scale. I see collecting tax so that more generous treat- that the income in the estimates book, from ment could then be given, particularly to this particular source, is estimated at £75,000 those for example who are in receipt of in the coming year. In fact, this could easily

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be made up to £100,000 by a modest increase 12 months, we could have brought in some in. the tax, before it, in fact, comes into effective investments which would have been effect. These are all possible ways of raising attractive to the Manx saver if it is felt, revenue and what disappoints me really, sir, as it is in some quarters, that we should is the lack of initiative in seeking out these not encourage investment in the British Post new ways. It is very hum-drum and I feel Office or the Liverpool Trustee Savings will not in any way give support and Bank. There are other personal allowances encouragement to the population. I have which have remained virtually unaltered for mentioned before in this hon. Court the quite some years, I refer to the allowance position of taxpayers who have money. of £40 for a daughter's services. This is now deposited in the old Post Office Savings £55 in the United Kingdom and these arc Bank, now known as the National Savings relatively small and relatively trivial ways Bank, or indeed in Branches of the Liver2. in which we could have helped those who pool Trustee Savings Bank in the Island. are, very often, in very distressing circum- The present system in the Isle of Man, and stances and frequently looking after elderly this has gone on for many years, is that the relatives in their own home and thereby first £15 of interest on ordinary accounts is saving Government a vast amount of money tax free. In the United Kingdom up to last. compared with the small amount of tax April the comparable figure was £21, but relief which we could give. The dependent it has been known for over 12 months that relative allowance too has been raised this this amount was going up to £40. So now .time to keep pace with the increase in the we have a position where the Post Office retirement pensions, but again in the United advertisements and the Trustee Saving. Kingdom, whilst the normal rate is £100 as Bank advertisements displayed in the Isle of it is here, there is also a special allowance Man have to be altered so that the figure; of £145 for women when they arc not living "the first £40" of interest is tax free, has with their husbands but are nevertheless to read "the first £15", and I personally supporting a dependent relative. Clearly cannot follow the argument for continually such women arc not entitled to the married holding this figure down. I could underi allowance, but only get the lower single stand them if the machinery, which we now allowance. These are other ways in which have available to us, to issue bonds and we seem to be adopting the Nelson-touch investments which will be tax free or will so frequently and I think it gives rise to be subject to a lower rate of tax had bc.:-A res:;:itment in this Island. I am disappointed used, but again, despite the cries that to say that because I have always felt we are poverty stricken and cannot bring generally that we erred on the side of in sufficient income, we do not as I generosity in our income tax structure. see it, appear to be using some of the Reference has been made to the higher weapons at our disposal. I should have rates appertaining in the United Kingdom, thought that some kind of. flexible Equity now 33 per cent, compared to our 21+ per Bond or something of that kind, such as cent, but it must not be forgotten .that the was mentioned in the House of Commons United Kingdom, when they abolished the yesterday and which the United KingdoM earned income allowance and increased are already considering — albeit we have personal allowances, also reduced quite sub- difficulties with the Usury Act limitations stantially their tax rate, their standard tax but I am sure that we could have used the rate. It used to be 3875 per cent. and was Act which we passed here during the last slashed to 30 per cent. This brings me. to

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T726 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

this vexed question of the wife's earned but we have at least accepted the adjust- income relief to which the hon. Chairman ments that have been made in the United made some reference in his statement. He Kingdom. The alteration to V.A.T. has pro- stated that what the critics ignore, is the duced and will produce in the year some- fact that the rate in the Isle of Man is thing like Elf million more than what we considerably lower to that applying in the would have normally got under certain United Kingdom, what the critics ignore circumstances, but on V,A.T. here is a is the availability on the Island of earned thing that some people could express some income relief which has disappeared in the disappointment. There arc certain little United Kingdom and a married woman can, niggling things that are associated with the in some circumstances, receive a higher imposition of V.A.T. that perhaps we could total allowance in the Isle of Man. The fact look at during the period of the year and is, sir, that long, long before the United relieve some of the—some of us had a letter Kingdom abolished earned income relief the recently about certain local philanthropic wife's earned income relief was always kept organisations being charged V.A.T. upon to an equivalent amount of the single per- certain services which they do perform. The son's allowance. In the Isle of Man the village band, for instance, has to pay V.A.T. single person's allowance will, I think, be on certain receipts which it receives, these £550 but by having wife's earned income sort of things 1 am sure, without any damage relief at £300 this still holds the wife'S to the economy, could be sorted out. I do earnings that can be tax free to £400; it is say that there are certain little things that still £150 short of the single person's al-I we could find fault with, but on the whole lowance even by United Kingdom standards we should all be jubilant with the results long before they changed the system and that we have before us. Let us remind our- abolished earned income relief. The argu- selves, my hon. friend Mr. Kneale from ment about earned income relief in the West Douglas—I agree with him that we United Kingdom is nothing but a "red could have done with more for the lower herring", I must reiterate that most strongly. sections of society, but I think we have got All in all I am really not satisfied that suf- to remind ourselves that in this particular ficient effort has been made to produce a Budget there is provision for the raising of packet that will fit the people's needs. I, our pensions to £10 and £16 as from July sir, am very disappointed indeed in this and we have also raised our supplementary Budget. benefit in advance too of the United Kingdom. We are also planning, and here Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, the state- the Social Security will watch this very ments that we have heard from Your Ex- carefully, that we want the family incomes cellency and from the Chairman of the benefits introduced, slightly amended to that Finance Board, if they may be disappoint- of the United Kingdom because we do not ing to some, they certainly are very en- think that the periods that are paid in the couraging so far as the stability is con- United Kingdom are fair and just — they cerned. Very fine and excellent figures have go on for 52 weeks, we want to review them been produced due to many things, amongst after each four weeks because of the varia- those the careful management locally, but tion in incomes that are earned. We are also above all, 1 think, by things that have hap- having provision for some concessions for pene'd without--certain taxes have been im- elderly people's bus fares, not only the poor posed in the United Kingdom and we have people or those on supplementary benefit but readily accepted, perhaps not so readily, all who wish to apply, this is the scheme

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T727

which is coming forward. Also in the Budget throughout thy. community and not just we have provision for the building of certain be the responsibility of the locality which places which two or three years ago we happens to do it, I think there is hope thought we would never be able to get the where we say, and here my hon. friend Mr. money for and all of this we are going to Kneale, 1 am sure must agree, that in the find we are going to be paying for out of Chairman's speech he gave some hope to revenue and not having to borrow. 1 think us who are perhaps particularly charged really that it is nice to criticise, but I think with the duty of looking after those people really we should show that we are happy who really do need this extra bit and it is about things, the Isle of Man should be up to us to draw attention to the Govern- jumping with joy today at the results that ment, of which we are. all part, we must are obtained. Admittedly, as the hon. mem- remember this, and in particular the Finance ber Mr. Kneale says and my hon. friend Board and Tynwald and I am sure there will from Ayre, Mr. Clucas, there are certain be room for the really deserving causes in little things extra we would like to give an expanding Budget like we have today. It away, there are certain other little things is very heartening that we find ourselves in that we would like to have, some allowances such a prosperous position and I would only improved and certain other areas where we say that whilst some of us may be coming would, could get a certain amount more knocking at the door for little bits for here, revenue. I think the paragraph in the Chair- there and everywhere, we should all be jolly man's speech did say that we have to realise well satisfied with the results that we have. that our prosperity is not spread evenly throughout the community and that sections Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, one of of the community will always need help. He the features of a Government which has a has given the green light to those people system of parties, sir, is that on the occasion who act in the interests of those people, that of the presentation of a Budget by the ruling they must and will perhaps be in a position party there tends to be a certain amount or to consider those people who perhaps do criticism from the opposition for no other require a little bit of assistance. I think it reason that it is the opposition. Normally we was rather cheerful to hear too, and I am find in this Court of Tynwald, which does not sure the hon. member for Peel, Mr. operate under a party system, that Budgets MacDonald, was delighted to hear this, that tend to be criticised or not on the merits of we are to have a review of the rates system the case, It was therefore a disappointment whereby some people are paying say housing to me that the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. deficiencies in some areas and others not Clucas, a man with peculiarly good equip- paying anything at all. The abolition of the ment — (interruptions and laughter) — and deficiency on housing rates will, I think, qualifications to guide a House of laymen, be welcomed greatly in many of the com- should have employed these qualifications in munities who have been penalised because a way which seemed to me to be somewhat they have been progressive. They have been unhelpful. Let us look at the criticisms he penalised because they have been progressive had to offer—the first criticism, as 1 and they have had to pay a deficiency of recall it, is he complained that this Budget 25 per cent., the Government paying 75 per has been based on lines similar to that in cent., and now there are signs that they will years gone by. Let us just have a glance at be relieved. In road repairs too this burden, what has happened in years gone by, sir. it is suggested. should be spread evenly The first Finance Board came into power

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in 1962 and its first Budget was presented Mr. Bell: The Income Tax Instalments 12 years ago. On that occasion the standard Plan, we are operating that, that is not law rate of tax was set at 21* per cent., the yet. (Laughter.) same as today. Much the same policy was put forward as has been put forward today, Mr. Simcocks: Ah yes, but then we had a cause in the words of the hon. member the goodwill of the hon. member for for Ayre, Mr. Clucas, a cause for complaint, Douglas South to assist us in that. There are yet let us look at what has happened id other matters, sir, the hon . member decides those 12 years. Is there any small corn that the only grounds for criticism of this munity in the Western World which can package, and I am using the expression point to such a steady period of improvef. which is a favourite one of the hon. mem- ment of ability to help the less well-off, of a ber himself, package. What he does is to general expansion and prosperity as thiS look in the package, he takes out all the little Island by following those very policieS pieces that he does not like, leaving all the of which the hon. member now complains', pieces in that he does like. It is perfectly for no other reason than that they are the true that there are some allowances in this same as have been proved to be successful? Budget, in the income tax law, which are I think we should look upon his criticism not as great as they are in England, but it in that light even having regard to the fact is no use his saying that we must „ignore that he is a chartered accountant and there E, the impact of the earned income allowance, fore, presumably, better equipped and better the fact is that earned income allowance qualified than anyone here other than the has a very marked effect indeed. If we look Chairman of the Finance Board himself. at the case, not at theoretical allowances Let us also look at others of his complaints: discussed completely out of context of this He tells us that we should be increasing the package he mentioned, if we look at the tax on companies which operate outside the effect of it on a man in the low income Island. This tax itself can be imposed only group, a man earning perhaps £30 a week, when a Bill for that purpose has been a man with a wife and a couple of children, passed. We are today, sir, being asked to what is the effect upon him? Let us forget sign that very Bill, that is the stage that we the airy-fairy business of selecting isolated have reached and yet he complains that we allowances out of context, let us have a are not bounding ahead of the Bill which is look at this man earning £30 a week with not even yet law. It would seem to me that two children, what income tax is he going the hon. member must have had some dit* to pay here? How much better off would he culty in finding grounds for complaint. Let be if all the allowances which the hon. us look at the fact that he suggests different member recommends were allowed? What ways of raising money, of presenting difference would it make to him? None Government Bonds. What is the machinery whatever, because already he does not pay which the Finance Board of Tynwald iS any income tax. What does his equivalent going to use for that purpose? It is the in the United Kingdom, who has the benefit Loans Bill. Is the Loans Bill yet law? Na of all these allowances so dear to the heart it is not, we are still waiting, 1 understand; of the hon. member for Ayre, what will he for the Royal Assent for that Bill. How; pay in the United Kingdom? Eighty-seven therefore, can the hon. member seriously pounds. I think, sir, that these are matters suggest that the Finance Board should be which ought to be regarded in the context using methods when the machinery for using in which they are presented and this hon. those methods is not even here? Court should not be deluded into thinking I ■ 1111•1- Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T729

that by picking out isolated, unrelated tainly am one of those who is absolutely matters we can thereby criticise the Budget delighted at the overall picture of the which really I believe to be all that the hon. finances of this Island at this present time. member of the Council, Mr, Nivison, has When I think that the income from income declared it to be. I do think that it is a tax when I came into this House first of all matter that we should regard as a whole. was £800,000 a year and think what it has Let us look at the whole picture, an ability risen to today and the services that we are to finance very considerable development providing for so many people and as the in this Island without the necessity of bor- hon. member, the Chairman of the Social rowing any money at all. I would have Security Board, has pointed out that this thought that this was a Budget which has lower income group's situation has been shown a remarkable degree of success, a looked at with regard to family benefit remarkable degree of balance and prudence supplement and the two hon. members who and I think we would be unwise if we were have spoken in opposition and condemna- to he led astray into making isolated, un- tion of this Budget today were terribly related adjustments to a Budget which is aware that this was in vogue, so I cannot really one on which the Finance Board quite understand the motive of criticising in ought to be congratulated. this way. I believe we ought to congratulate the Finance Board on a very successful Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, the hon. Budget. They are aware that there are things member for Rushcn has said a great deal in it that I am not so happy about, that were better many of the things that 1 was going cut out as far as I was concerned in relation to say, as has the hon. member of Council, to security at Ballamona, they know about Mr. Nivison. I sometimes sit back here and that and I do hope that these are things wonder why certain members say certain which will be put right, but 1 think that things and one of the conclusions I have when you look at these things and look at come to is, well, there is a chance if you the overall picture, if we are honest with go in the opposition that you get a better ourselves, we must be delighted that we headline in the newspapers or something are in a position this year to pay out of like that. revenue for all the capital projects that we are going to tackle in this Island. Surely this is a fantastic step forward, something that Mr. Bell: Are you speaking for the probably a year ago we could not possibly Liberals? have foreseen. I know that in all these things we all look at sectors that maybe are Mr. Anderson: I sometimes come to the not doing so well . conclusion that if the hon. member of Council. the Chairman of the Finance Board, were to get up here and declare that Mr. Bell: Like agriculture, one day he had managed, by some means or other, to abolish all income tax and pay Mr. Anderson: Exactly. Take agriculture all allowances and finance everything from if you like, and take in that industry the some source unknown, there would be increases that have taken place on one item somebody in this Court who would get up just mentioned on "Farming on Sunday" and slate it that he had done it the wrong where a product, a fertiliser sited very ex- way. I think that we want to be a bit more tensively in that industry, went from £40 constructive than that this morning. I cer- to £70 in one year. These are costs that have

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T730 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

been absorbed from an industry which is while we have erected the foundation on accepting for its end product a great deal which to build an even stronger economy, less than it was at that time. I say that the it now appears that having achieved this whole picture of every part of the economy stage the Finance Board thinking has is not nearly as good as it might be and assumed its old familiar pattern, it has got there are sections that may have to be itself well and truly in a rut. Where, in looked at. I am also aware that in the this bundle of mediocrity that you have Health Services Board we are going to be before you this morning, will you find one faced with very substantial increases for the spirit of the sort of thinking that is neces- nursing profession before the end of this sary to take us through the 'seventies as year. This is something that has got to be a healthy—and I use that term in its faced up to and we have got to have a broadest interpretation— as a healthy and buoyant economy to meet these things if happy community? Where is there any real we arc going to have an adequate health evidence of any understanding of the prob- service. I believe that while, as I say, there lems that so many of our people have to are things with which we will disagree and face? The cost of living, the cost of housing. be dissatisfied that the overall picture must Yes, admittedly, there has been a reference, be one of which we should be delighted but no real action proposed to say that we here this morning and I congratulate the will reduce the levels at which people can Board on presenting such a Budget. buy houses and become owners, their own The Speaker: Your Excellency, I regret home owners. The difficulties of small that I am unable to join in any chorus of businesses to survive in this Island today, acclaim for a Budget which I find both dull the social stresses experienced by so many and flagmatic. It is lacking in initiative, it people which, associated with a wildly is lacking in imagination and frankly I think escalating pattern of costs, are simply not it is lacking in understanding of the position being recognised in these proposals. Where which the Island is facing at the present is there any thought devoted to the preser- time. While stressing that Government vation of our basic industries, as the hon. should be constantly aware of changes and member for Glenfaba mentioned, of agri- alive to challenges, it frankly fails to be culture and tourism? While the new banks aware of those changes, and certainly does may flourish with token penalties, such as not respond to any of the challenges. paltry licence fees, and saving banks and the Naturally, it is pleasant for us all to find Post Office, as the hon. member for Ayre that as the outcome of the imposition of has said, collect the savings of a thrifty value added' tax and selective employment Manx people, it seems impossible that we tax in this Island, in a different form, as a Government can run our own Manx admittedly, we today have a balance of such savings bank or similar institution. While significant proportions, a balance which has tourism, on the other hand, struggles feebly to survive, there is no provision for finance enabled us to no longer hear the familiar cry of wolf with which this Court has been to counter the impact of the early season misled over a period of years, and which of industrial unrest in the adjacent Island. has held in check from time to time the Rather to add to the saga of the Fort Anne, aspiFations of many members to effect a the Derhyhaven, Howstrake Holiday Camp, degree of change in our pattern of opera- we have the Chairman's long-cherished tion. Having stayed patient while we have dream on our Agenda, the closure of the achieved a very desirable state of stability, M.E.R.

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T731

Mr. P. Radcliffe: Past time toot true perspective. The real tragedy, how- ever, will lie, 1 believe, in the inevitable sales The Speaker: Past time too, says the hon. of Manx holdings to buyers from the United member who is sponsoring it from Executive Kingdom and abroad who will have money Council, but we will see whether the time readily available to undertake the exercise is past or not later. It is indicative of the and displace the Manx occupants at the sort of thinking, get rid of everything except present time who cannot, despite a bulging certain cherished aspects of business life, finance report, afford to continue in busi- "The Street" is not enough. The proposals ness. In this one industry —and I stress this —1 am talking of tourism here — the pro- point there has been lost to it some 600 posals of two successive Visiting Industry workers in recent years. The next to go will Commission Reports arc in the main being be the farmers themselves, and while con- ignored, and if the cut-back on services and servationists talk glibly and politicians fail attractions in this particular field continues, to recognise the warning signs, this primary there will be a ghost-like quality soon industry, which is the taproot of the Manx associating itself with this once prosperous nation, is being allowed to quietly wither, industry. Similarly with agriculture, pre- and as we gaze, perhaps bemused, on the sently tottering financially, its products are exotics of new business interests and a figure being marketed at a level in many cases of population conjured up by some highly below that which applied two years ago, and paid experts or consultants, which, if imple- without any benefit being reflected in this mented, will completely destroy what is left situation to the consumers; the consumer of Manx culture and the Manx way of life. paying treble and the producer getting less. (Hear. hear.)

Mr. MacDonald: Who is getting it? Mr. MacDonald: We have not even seen it yet. The Speaker: Where, for the Government and people who are prone to say Manxland The Speaker: But we realise today that, for the Manx people, is there a crumb of while the leopard cannot change its spots, comfort in this Budget? Where every neither can our Finance Board. What an English support pattern for agriculture has opportunity there has been in this Budget been cut back, the Manx pattern has suf- to give some sort of fillip to the morale of fered a similar fate; where supports are less, our people, and that opportunity is being they have not been brought up to the lost in this instance. Because, let us face it, English level, and the Board of Agriculture's the whole of the revenue that we have been Estimates—and it is the most conservative fortunate enough to acquire this year is of Boards in our Administration—have . being put in the piggy-bank. What an oppor- been cut back in a time of need by £58,000, tunity is being lost to tourism, by the failure, and I predict that this will Drove to be one for instance, to enter into some sort of of the most, or one of the greatest follies of arrangement with the United Kingdom to the decade? Why? Because there is going have duty-free take-home parcels. I am sure to be no confidence in producing the com- this could be achieved in the Isle of Man. modities that we tend to take for granted, These are the sort of things. The Post Office' and when the Island has to face up to the was condemned; it was not a starter. It will full-scale impact of importation, the value of come up with its projected £400,000, I am the industry sales will be revealed in their quite sure of this, but these are the sort

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T732 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

of things we must be looking for. We have like to appear adversely critical of your first got to accept the challenge of high com- Budget statement, nor do I wish to be modity costs in this Island, and the fact that critical of the Finance Board who do an there are many people who will not send admirable job for this Island, but I am goods to the Island because of the high critical of many of Tynwald's policies and transit costs. We have to face up to this by philosophy. I am particularly critical of the creating the roll-on, roll-off transport pat- ethic that the wealthy man on this Island tern which is, I believe, the only means of is doing better and better. In the United decisively reducing them. We have got to Kingdom a person with £20,000 earned consider, in the lack of action in any other income pays tax this year of 83 per cent.: quarter, multi-storey car parks for the Manx that is 8 per cent, more than he was paying motorist. in the United Kingdom last year. In other words, he would have been 8 per cent. Mr. MacDonald: Overdue. worse off if he lived in the United Kingdom. If his income was from investment, he is The Speaker: We pay lip-service to these surcharged 15 per cent., making a total of ideas, but we do nothing, Unlike the Govern- 98 per cent. tax. Last year his investment ment of Jersey, for instance, who have gone surcharge started off to the first £2,000, on and built their own car parks, and now and now it starts off to the first £1,000, so find them a paying proposition, we sit back that again if he had been in the United and say, we will help the local authorities. Kingdom he would have been worse off. In But that is not enough. There must be more the Island, however, his income is the same, initiative still. We have got to tackle the still at one rate. But for those —and they container problem which is already showing are the majority — who are on the lower a marked impact on our society on the income group rungs, there is also that same roads. But why and how can this be done? rate, but because of greater inflation in this Why? Because it is a confounded nuisance, Island, he is having much greater difficulty as far as distribution is concerned. How? in managing. What is in one's housekeeping By taking over completely the whole of the purse now simply will not stretch because I Isle of Man Railway and using its assets believe that, in fact I am certain, the prices for both distribution and contact with the are higher on this Island than they are in area of the port. I believe that the Alf the United Kingdom. The Consumer Council Ramsey of Manx finance had better do has been baulked in their endeavours to get some hard thinking before his next pro- a price index or cost of living index going, duction. (Laughter.) The time, I think, for but there is a food prices survey based on retrenchment is past. We must show that in the "Financial Times", that is the "London the period remaining to this Government it Financial Times" price index in Jersey. This is people and their well-being that count, shows a widening gap between the Channel not mere money. Money is a very great Island prices, the Channel Island prices are essential, I agree. I regret that this Budget, higher than in the United Kingdom. Many in my opinion, fails to reach out to the of the prices in the Channel Islands, eggs, people generally, and reassure them of our cereals, fruit—because of their geographical determination to improve the pattern and situation, these prices are lower than in the quality of life in the Island. and I regret United Kingdom, whereas they are higher this very much indeed. over here in the Isle of Man. So that if we Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I do not knew the true facts I believe the prices in

Budget—ChairMan of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 2!, 1974 T733

91.=■1•11 the Isle of Man, or shall I say the gap seeing going on in many homes today. Lots between the Isle of Man and the United of these wives are not getting their main- Kingdom, is fairly. considerable. Rightly or tenance regularly, and their needs then have wrongly, everyone now in the modern world to be met by the social security. A bit of expects a certain standard of living, but as generosity in the children's allowances for things are today, for most working people tax relief would go a long way towards the man's wage over here is not enough, and obviating financial difficulties in the home, therefore it means the wife has got to gd and these social problems that arise from out to help finance the household. Unfor- these difficulties, especially where very young tunately, the majority of women's pay on children are concerned.. The Chairman of this Island is low compared with that in the the Finance Board said on page 7: "This United Kingdom. It is particularly low for Court must constantly re-appraise its policies the unskilled and the semi-skilled woman in distributing help and assistance to various worker. I believe this is partly due to the sections of the community", and I am going old-fashioned outlook of employers that to move an amendment when it comes to women are merely doing a job to supple- item 10, that the tax relief in allowance ment the husband's wage. I am particularly for a child under school age should he concerned about the unsupported mother, higher, £52 higher a year, in other words the one who has no male wage earner in £1 a week on last year's level. This would the background. I think of everyone in the give some small additional financial help for Island she has the toughest road. To help mothers so that they need not go out to the families offset inflation I had hoped the work while their children are under school Budget would have been more generous with age. If there is not enough money coming the income relief allowed for children. It into a home in the United Kingdom, as the is absolutely wrong that mothers of young Chairman of the Board of Social Security children under school age should have to has told us, that family is probably able to dump their children and go out to work: get family income supplement. We have not Mothers should be able to stay at home got this supplement yet on the Island; 1 when their children are very young. Children hope it is going to be brought in soon. But have got to have time spent on them; they it is a means tested benefit, and lots of have got to he trained, they have even got people do not like these means tested things. to be played with and you have got to have It also has the disadvantage of the so-called time to give them affection, but there is pov,..xty- trap. I personally do not think it is simply not time for a mother when she hat the best way of helping a man's indepen- got a job to do outside as well as in the dence and dignity. It also means, of course, home. This makes a stress situation for her, that the employer says, "ah, well they can and possibly she is sowing seeds of trouble be on the family income supplement", and both for her own marriage and for that he does not bother to raise the wage. If we child's future. The seeds of trouble for the bring .in the family income supplement it child will he shown in future absenteeisrn is going to cost this island money, and I from school, hooliganism and other forms would far rather see people retaining enough of problems that may arise in that child, of their wages to be able to manage As for the mother, it is the sort of situation adequately. A family with three children that is likely to put her marriage at risk., and a total income of £30.50 or under, This is shown in the sharp rise in desertion, is entitled in the United Kingdom to family or separation, or divorce that we are now income supplement, and I believe that will

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T734 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

be the rate on the Island, but also that man by then, be industrial nations themselves and his family are entitled to such things producing their own cars, their own tele- as free dental treatment, free milk, free vision sets, their own plastic materials and medicine; in other words they are con- what-have-you. The raw materials are going sidered in the United Kingdom to be in to be expensive for us, and where are our need of financial help, and if they are in world markets going to be then? We may need of financial help in the United King- find ourselves in Britain and in the United dom, where our prices are higher here in Kingdom having to be much more self- the Island they are certainly in need of supporting, including growing our own food. financial help. By increasing the tax relief Then we are going to find that every hun- allowances for children in this Budget, dred extra mouths that have got to be fed especially for the first child, the Government and every extra acre of ground that is lost would greatly help their situation. The other under building is going to be seen to have matter that has also been brought up in the been due to a terribly short-sighted mistake statement by the Chairman of the Finance on our part. People accuse me of having Board—and it worries me very much — is the sort of attitude, "there must be a poor the amount that is not being financed out man somewhere round about, where is he out of revenue, and it is being hung round that I may help him". But this is absolutely the necks of our children, our grand- untrue; you have only to be out in the shops children and our great-grandchildren. We shopping, as I am, especially amongst the arc in a spiral of need, and this need is due pensioners, to know the trouble that people to Tynwald's policy of increasing excessively are having in this Island at the moment. the number of people living in this Island. The story was revealed by the green book Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I think of annual estimates, and it tells just what that over the past few years that I, as Tynwald's present policy is doing for us. Chairman of the Local Government Board 1 have taken education as an example. and Chairman of the Planning Committee, There are 19 primary schools needing alter- myself and my Board have stood up to ing, extending or new ones to be built. The more criticism for the policy we have pur- three secondary schools need extensions. sued possibly than any other Board in this There is also a new school, secondary hon. Court. I today feel that several of the school to be built in the West. (Hear, hear.) members of this hon. Court who have All this is at a cost, at today's estimated spoken should be residing in the United prices — and as you know these are rising Kingdom, because all they say is, in the and rising—of around £2 million and this United Kingdom we can have this, and in figure in here only includes the site for the the United Kingdom we can have the other. new secondary school in the West, not the We, as a Government in the Isle of Man, building. So it is not the beginning of the I hope, are legislating for the people of the expense. The Vic Hallam modular units Isle of Man. I appreciate and welcome today require very high maintenance costs. Added the situation we find ourselves in. I have to all this you have got the immense cost consistently and do still maintain that this of starting these buildings. I believe that we Island can maintain and should have a are basing our economy against world con- population of a minimum of 75,000 people. ditions as they are today, but in a dozen or A remark was made earlier on this morning 20 years' time a very different picture may about a report that went to the press in appear. The emergent nations may very well, reference to a statement made by a qualified

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T735 ViliNI■ers.91.1■ technical officer who was advising the Local of Man, a great deal of all our development Government Board with information that would have had to grind to a halt. What we sought in reference to putting forward would have been the situation following to this hon. Court and to local authorities that? A tremendous number of our people the principle pursued in bringing forward a are now in the happy position of full development order. Under that development employment in the Isle of Man and quite order — let me emphasise this — we are recently the Chairman of the Board of compelled, that is the Local Government Social Security had a notice put in the Press Board, to find and get all the advice we saying, I think, the number of able-bodied possibly can and then to submit that sug- in the Isle of Man on the register was gestion to all local authorities; this is a under 40. If we find ourselves in the position compulsory matter that we must pursue, and like that, I think it would be something to we intend to pursue it to the best of our be proud of. If we would not have had the ability to give the local authorities the money forthcoming, as it has been forth- opportunity to come forward and 'criticise coming from our revenue this year, our the situation as they see it. Mention has housing programme would have been cut been made in the Budget speech with re- without any doubt. I welcome this situation ference to housing, and I am sure everybody that we find ourselves in, that we can pro- in the Isle of Man is concerned regarding gress this matter. Our Board this year have the situation in housing. Many members in a programme of housing which will extend this hon. Court for years have steadfastly to somewhere in the region of 150 more set their faces against the abolition of the houses. I like to be modest about one thing; I Usury Act. I raised it many years ago in do notice that the Chairman in making his a Private Member's Bill to try and get some remarks referred to the responsibility that form of development carried out in the Isle would be taken over by central government of Man, because without doubt the develop- in paying the full 100 per cent, deficiency ment in the Isle of Man has been held up on houses. I think he would give a lot of for the lack of finance. I have, in my office that credit, and I am sure he will agree at home, a cutting which I took from an with me when he replies, to the Local English paper some time ago, and across Government Board, because it was our the top of it it says "Government do less". Board in ,the first place that looked into To me, the people in the Isle of Man and this matter, and although certain local everywhere else in the world today seem to au;horities now are jumping and trying want to sit back, do as little as possible for to claim headlines by saying they did it, themselves, and depend on the Government like some members today who think this is to do all for them. a golden opportunity to lambaste Govern- ment policy because it sounds very well, I Mr. MacDonald: Not in all countries. think that in assessing the situation, we put forward this suggestion because basically Mr. P. Radcliffe: I would say quite a lot local authorities, quite naturally, realise that of people have got this inclination. If you if they are to follow their policy of building can visualise what the effect would be on more council houses, they have to look over our capital programme this year if we were their shoulder continually at what effect it not in the situation that we are, because is going to have on their rate burden. As we have pursued a policy of trying to en- long as they were paying 25 per cent. of courage new residents to come to the isle the deficiency on their houses, they naturally

Budget—Chairman of-the Finance Board. T736 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

felt there were other things possibly within because of the Usury Act. We have got a the town they should do, and therefore were less amount of money coming in because of not progressing their housing programme to our change of policy on income tax, and we the extent that the Local Government Board would find ourselves then, instead of having felt they should do. So therefore we have 40 people, able people, unemployed, we put the suggestion forward, and I appreciate might have four or five hundred. I am very very much the co-operation of Finance pleased indeed — I am not going to go into Board in accepting it. the technical details like some hon. members have, on broad principle and policy. 1 think Mr. MacDonald: It has taken you eight the policy pursued in the past has been a years to get round to it! good one; I hope that the Government will continue to pursue it in the future, and I Mr. P. Radcliffe: It will take you a lot congratulate the Finance Board on the way longer than that to get your harbours put they have introduced it today. in order! (Laughter.) We feel that today we • Miss Cowin: I had hoped to follow the are able to progress this matter because of hon. member for Garff after he sat down, the policy that is being pursued. Certain but I am very glad that T was not successful members have said that the extremely in being able to do this, because 1 have now wealthy are getting away with a lower heard what the hon. member for Castletown income tax than they should be paying.. has said, and I regret so much this thesis What would actually happen if the Manx of soaking the rich by the member for Government decided next month that they Castletown. The new residents were en- were going to up the rate of income tax couraged to come to this Island on certain on a lot of these new residents that come conditions, and as a Manx woman I regret to the Isle of Man? I will be quite honest; very much the idea of turning our back on I have got no great love for the wealthy promises which were freely given, which residents that come to the Isle of Man. were extended by us, and which must be did not bring them here or pursue the policy honoured. To be so cynical as to suit a that we should bring them here to have conduct to the necessity of the time is, in them here for the sake of letting them my view, and I say it is in my view, get away with a low income tax. Their deplorable. According to the means of the return on income tax is certainly — we are Island at this time our services have been accruing the money that today is providing extended. We have now a hospital which the money to build the houses, to extend is so vast that I lose myself in it if I go the business of the Isle of Man, to provide to one of the far-flung wards. This hospital employment in the Isle of Man, and as will be further fitted and further extended soon as you would change the policy and up to receive those needing hospital treatment. that rate of income tax, there is a boat Supposing the income tax is interfered with going out of the Isle of Man every morning the national corollary will be that those who and some people would say it is a very good pay most income tax will leave the Island. thing. 1 would say a lot-of them would go Where then do we turn for the capital hack, possibly, to where they came from, expenditure which these services demand? or go back to other places in the world The rich resident pays the bulk of the where they would get similar circumstances, income tax, which, as I understand . , and we would find ourselves in the situation that we have got no money coming in Mr. Bell: Who said that? (Interruptions.)

Mil•M■••■ Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T737

Miss Cowin: This, I understand ap- Island. So far as extra residents would spoil proaches almost £7 million in the current the nurturing of agriculture, I would stand year. very firmly against any extended programme of new residents. I would say to this Court Mr. Beth Oh, you are so easily kidded! that what we have to sell in this Island is the room to live, the room to breathe. I Miss Cowin: So i would ask you in self- would say to this Court that it has been preservation to beware of doing anything proved in science that if rats are herded to drive from our shores those people who, together they destroy each other. So we as the Chairman of the Local Government must be careful not to over-extend our Board has said, in his usual direct manner, hospitality in this Island for the sake of have provided for the employment of the the prosperity of it. Thank you. young people, have provided for the money which we can expend in helping these young Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, I rise as people to pay for their own homes, have a member without the equipment this provided for the services which have been morning. The Budget in some respects — vastly extended in the Island, and have one cannot help but be delighted with it, provided for our present prosperity. with our very, very nice surplus, and so forth. The bright spot for me is the Mr. Bell: You are joking! declared policy of in future we are going to pay as we go, a policy that will be carried out as far as practicable. This is very, very Mis, Cowan:I do not make a habit of joking as you joke, sir. important to the young Manxmen of today and to the future generations that have got Mr. Bell: You are joking! to come along. The future for them is con- siderably brightened. On the other side of Miss Cowin: I was interested in the the Budget 1 ant a very, very disappointed speech, in the rather destructive speech, of man. It is only last week, last month rather, the hon. member for Garff. I was sorry, but in this Court that a resolution was accepted I must say that I failed to appreciate the that owing to the exorbitant increase in impact which is usually evident in the cost of two items alone, fuel and gas, in speech of this member. It seemed to be order to relieve the burdens for those who lacking this morning — the words were there are so badly pressed and the financial but the spirit was absent, I thought. I could matters, that consideration would be given not understand why he should drag in at to that particular problem in the forth- the outset the matter of a tax which has coming Budget. I find no evidence of any never been exacted here, S.E.T. It has never relief for this class of people in our Budget been exacted here ... today. Not even, not even did they get round to removing the iniquitous tax under The Speaker: It is now in the form of the Rent Rebate Scheme where people who value added tax. are struggling—and struggling is the word — to bring up families in a decent and Miss Cowin: I will say that he had some- proper manner, when because they earn a thing to say about agriculture, which I fully certain amount for children at a certain age support. I most fully support the statement they pay what is actually a tax of £26 per that agriculture must be nurtured in this year per child. They did not even find room,

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. 1738 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

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in spite of our increased wealth, to remove future when the rate of income tax may that. The help that they promise or claim have to be changed slightly—we do not to give, and the consideration they claim to know, but 1 believe in the interests of not give to the lower paid incomes group, par- only new residents — and we keep talking ticularly those right at the very bottom of about new residents—but in the interests the list, they did not even find it in their of industry as well, particularly manufactur- hearts to remove the pound they are going ing industry in this Island, it is absolutely to pay for the cheap fares that they may essential that we stick to the policy of low possibly enjoy in the very near future. This and stable direct taxation. We have heard 1 find is hard to go along with when the Mr. Speaker this morning, sir, in a speech delcared policy is that they are going to which made me wonder whether a General look after these people, but I am convinced Election was imminent, or whether there it is not going to be the Manx Government. was a good number of electors in the gallery! (Laughter.) Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel- lency, my words will be very few, but I The Speaker: Or whether, indeed, I have cannot let the opportunity pass without been working for your Board recently! expressing great appreciation and gratitude for the very generous provision in this Mr. Irving: The hon. member has been Budget for education. In common with most working for the Board recently. We did see Boards of Tynwald we had to make certain flashes of the — what shall we say — darting cuts in our estimates, and I am particularly through the political jungle, hell-bent on sorry that, for one thing, the axe fell on destruction this morning, but on the other our schemes for youth and community work hand I will admit that in spite of the slight in Douglas. This is a crying need of which criticisms which I feel ali of us have our Board is very aware, and I hope they received from Mr. Speaker this morning, may be able to take steps in this direction I will confess that he is working for the in the near future. In the meantime, how- Tourist Board at the moment. He does not ever, it is a matter of great satisfaction that like the Budget, and I am sure that every financial provision is assured to progress so hon. member of this Court would like to many of our major educational schemes, write their own Budget, but they cannot. It and in the light of our ever-growing school is bound to be a compromise. The hon. population this is a tremendous relief, and member says it shows lack of imagination, calls for sincere gratitude. it shows lack of expenditure to insure that our great industries prosper in the '70s, and Mr. !ming: Your Excellency, we have so on. No one member of this Court has heard today several suggestions that we had a more restrictive influence on this should increase taxation. I am sure that Budget than Mr. Speaker in his opposition every economist, every worthwhile econo- to the abolition of the Usury Act. mist, in this world, would agree that the basis of the Manx economy is low and stable Mr. Bell: Rubbish, rubbish! direct taxation. I have stood up now, sir, to Make sure that I state my position in Mr. Irving: Hon. members know very well these' arguments for increased taxation. I indeed that the Manx Government at the believe that if we increase taxation, cer- moment just cannot borrow the money to tainly unnecessarily, there may be times in carry out its capital schemes which we have

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board, TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T739

all asked for in the coming winter. We have and we are considering this coming year heard these criticisms of the Budget. It is now in financial terms, we must think, too, all very well people getting un and saying that one of our prime objectives must be why do not we have that, why do not we to control the inflow of new residents. I have the other, and be opposed to certain believe this is the desire not only of what things in the Budget. I cannot divulge what the hon. member for Peel would call the happened when the Budget proposals were Manx people who are born here, but people considered by hon. members in private. who have come here to live. Those who How many members of this Court opposed ' have come, if you like, to avoid taxation, anything in this Budget in private? I have but they have come and they have found seen occasions in the House of Keys in that it is a good place in which to live and private where hon. members have changed they, too, are just as insistent that we must Budget proposals, but I do not see any I not over-populate the Isle of Man. I would changes coming out of the House of Keys believe that this is the general view of this in this one, Now my job this morning, sir, Court, that there ought to be some control is not to defend the Chairman of the of immigration, that we do not want a Finance Board, or the Finance Board, for population of perhaps 1 16,000 in the Isle of their Budget proposals but I think we have Man. When I hear the Chairman of the got to be fair and not use this occasion to Local Government Board say a minimum put over views which we are not prepared of 75,000 I am afraid I cannot say hear, to fight for in private. (Hear, hear.) I have hear to that. I believe that there will be always supported the new residents' policy, certainly immigration to the Isle of Man the attraction of new residents. I believe in future, but though I feel we cannot agree now that it has been so successful that we , on the methods we would use to control have got to think about it again, I am not immigration, I think in this coming year we a member of any nationalist organisation, have certainly got to decide on some method I was a nationalist when nationalist was and if we arc to preserve, as I have said, not a dirty word to a lot of people. I have our environment, quality of Manx life, this carried out as far as I could in this Court really must be a priority in this coming and in the House of Keys what I believed ' year. to be true nationalist policies and I believed at one time that it was in the interests of Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I was the Isle of Man to encourage new residents. ..oi going to say anything. (Laughter.) Your I believe the Island will never prosper and Excellency, having listened to a former man never has prospered unless we have a certain from Peel, or formerly of Peel, state this number of new residents in this Island, but morning, criticise this morning certain I am horrified at the thought of a popu- members who did not raise their voices in lation, and here I will agree with Mr. private, coming from him who was not even Speaker, I will give him credit for this, of there when the vote was taken, I thought a population of 84,000 to 116,000 people in I had to get onto my feet, and also as this Island by 1991. For me it is a horrifying listened, Your Excellency, I began to thought. I believe a population of that size wonder to whose gallery and to whom was would destroy the quality of Manx life. It he speaking. Your Excellency, I feel today would destroy the very environment we that there is nothing that I or any member enjoy here and 1 believe that one of of the House of Keys can do about this the things we must do in this coming year, Budget. We have said this in private quite

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. 1 740 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

often. We are not here to speak in private, have gone up this year, it may have dropped this is not a "star" chamber, this is where to 55 per cent., but it is around about that, the public sit and listen and this is where 55 per cent. to 60 per cent., and 45 per cent. if you arc going to speak, you speak, Your to 50 per cent. perhaps is taken from Excellency. direct taxation, in other words we are con- tinuing, if you will look at the figures, Mr. Miss Cowin: Sense, 1 hope. Chairman, you will find it is a fact. Your Excellency, if we look at the figures we will Mr. MacDonald: Well, madam, having find 1 think it was £9 million expected from listened to you I was reminded that there indirect taxation, which includes V.A.T. used to be a wonderful poster in Douglas. Now for the Chairman of the Tourist Board This was a poster of a little dog sitting with to stand up and say he is all against direct his ears cocked, listening to a record being taxation being increased, in other words he turned around with a big loud-speaker and supports V.A.T. being imposed. underneath it said "1-I.M.V." Her master's voice! (Laughter.) Your Excellency, 1 had Mr. Irving: Ah, he did not say that. to say that, but I will apologise to the lady, but that had to come out. Your Excellency, Mr. MacDonald: He had not the guts to I think a lot of sense, a lot of sense was say that. Your Excellency, this absolutely amazes me. For the Chairman of the spoken this morning by a man who I think in time, he is a bit young possibly at the Tourist Board, an industry that is screaming moment, but in time he will probably be for the removal, complete removal of V.A.T., because they see in Guernsey, the next where there are a lot of very sensible men, Mr. Bell: Chairman of the Harbour they appear to be getting away without Board. V.A.T. They appear to be. I would admit, Your Excellency, that in Guernsey and Mr. MacDonald: Chairman of the Finance Jersey, the natives have slowly but surely Board, (Laughter.) Your Excellency, I think been driven out It is a paradise for new what he said had a lot of good, sound residents, both of them, and I will never, commonsense members should listen to. I do not think, live to see the Isle of Man Let us be fair about it, this Budget today reach that stage. Certain people would like continues a policy which this Island has it to reach that stage, but I think before adopted whereby the majority, the large that stage is reached they will have no say majority, of funds required to run the Island in the Government of this Island. Your are collected through indirect taxation. In- Excellency, I believe that the Finance Board direct taxation hits people regardless of Chairman and the members of the Finance income. They are all soaked for V.A.T., Board have as they see it, or saw it, they they are all soaked for everything that is have done a very good job with the figures taken off them indirectly. As I have said that have been produced for them. 1 think before, this is the only state in Europe, a lot has been done on'our Island for Manx possibly apart from France where every- people but a great deal more needs to be body fiddles taxes anyway, but apart from done and what worries me is that we do not France the only state in Europe where 60 seem'to have any means whereby a policy per_cent. almost and this has continued this decided by a majority of the elected House year, where 60 per cent. of Government can in fact be carried through. Your Excel- requirements are met indirectly. Well it may lency, we all know that this .Budget has been

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T741

prepared by the Finance Board —I have sat Mr. MacDonald: And the Harbour Board and done this exercise myself — has been table. Your Excellency, I had to nut a Effie prepared after various Boards have sub- bit of fun into this, it was getting very mited their proposals. We, as a Board, or dreary the debate, the same old stories as they today, as a Board, decide really what Mr. Speaker said would be dragged out, is cut out and what is left in, so in fact we which have been dragged out year after year, have a Government of three to start with. but there is one thing, Your Excellency, I They then troop along to Executive Council think the House would take note of . . . where, as the hon. member for Douglas East said, in private, highly confidential . Mr. Irving: Population.

Mr. Irving: You used to be one of the Mr. MacDonald: That is, yes, that is one, three, you never supported it. sir, yes. Population I do not believe, cer- tainly the House of Keys, the majority of Mr. MacDonald: I used to be on the the House of Keys want no large increase Finance Board, sir, never on Exco. They sit in the population of this Island. Your Ex- in Executive Council — (interruption) — no, cellency, I cannot accept that it is the new but he was complaining and I am not, where residents who suddenly come into our Island they sit on Executive Council and they there who have given us, I have heard two mem- decide, yes, we will back this but we will bers say, all the money to run our Island. not back that, we will support this, we will God help the Manx, how they survived for not support that. Now they know that when a thousand years I often wonder, and how they get into the Chamber today Exco they will go on continuing to survive for voting together, and we have heard them another thousand years after many of the all get up one after one to support the people who have come to give us their policy . . money have gone elsewhere with their money and left us. Your Excellency, this is happening in other states, there arc mem- Mr. Kneale: No, they did not. bers here today who have, in their own districts seen people flow or flowing from Mr. MacDonald: Well, I know. Mr. Guernsey or Jersey, they were once the Kneale was always a rebel — (laughter)— 1 bonanza islands. I find every week now I will excuse him, Your Excellency, they have ,..ehicles driving round looking for pro- got up one after another supporting "the perty with a Jersey sticker or the back or party line", which is what it is, and we in i Guernsey sticker on the back. The birds the House realise that unless we support ire emigrating to here, having squatted here the party line when it comes to our own or a while, they will emigrate to somewhere particular Board's needs we have had it What we have got to do, Your Excel- And so many members, many members, :ency, whilst they are here, is take some that is quite true, sir, that is true, many cream off them. members. Your Excellency, are quite pre- pared to go along the way, thanking every- Mr. Anderson: Birds do not have cream. body and bowing and saying "thank you for all the crumbs that my Board is going to get dropped from the table". Mr. MacDonald: That is what we have got to do. For the privilege of living Mr. Bell: Not the Airports Board table. amongst us they must pay. (Laughter.) Your

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T742 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

Excellency, I think the Board as a whole reasonably early date. This, however, is not has done a very good job. I am very pleased a matter which could be included in the that they have managed to collect the Budget at this particular time. Again the money, I am not happy the way they are suggestion is made by the hon. member, not collecting it. I still think it is wrong that only by him but also by the hon. member the poor people should be paying the for Castletown, that the wealthy should be majority of the money required to run this punished for being wealthy. This again is state. It is no good you shaking your head, utterly ridiculous. If we intend to secure Mr. Devereau, there is no V.A.T. on fish - their wealth for our own use we must take (laughter) — but anything else we buy has it from them painlessly and this has been V.A.T. on it, and other people are paying the object all the way through and this is through the nose and, Your Excellency, I why we are so well off today. The poor as hope that in time we will get, in fact, a I say are not just those who say they are, Tynwald Court with a Government sitting and they cannot expect to receive without here that can decide on a policy and carry some disclosure. Regarding his remarks on it through. the Post Office, 1 did deliberately leave this for the hon. member to explain and I am The Governor: I call on the Chairman of quite sure that we should congratulate the the Finance Board to reply. hon. member on the success of the Past Office up to the present time. I do accept that the pink book does not reflect exactly Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, the remarks the success that has followed their efforts in regarding the proposals in the Budget have this matter, but, unfortunately, the pink been somewhat diverse. I would like first of book merely refers to actual cash received all to start with the hon. member, Mr. or to be received and very often substantial Kneale, who talks about those who are on profits can be made, but the cash in respect the wrong side of income tax, and pleads for those poor people who do not pay income of those profits may not necessarily be tax at all. Well, now at the same time, he readily available. The hon. member also suggests that if they need help they have referred to this question of why cannot we got to come and prove it. Why should not give the family allowance for the first child? they? The man who is paying the tax has To give the family allowance to the first to prove how much he is going to pay, he child and move them all up one as you has got to disclose every half-penny, and 1 may say would undoubtedly cost us £340,000 know very well that there are many whd in the current year and we can see no would claim, without justification, if they justification for doing that. Then we get felt they could and I think that it is going the hon. member for Ayre and he is on to be essential right through that there has again about those who are below the got to be some kind of means test if massive threshold as he referred to them. fle also assistance is to be given and we have got refers to the question of foreign tax. We to face up to this and we have not got to do know that changes will have to take pretend that we are ill-treating people if we place in connection with the taxation of ask them to disclose their means. Again I foreign income and the taxation of United am quite sure that- hon. members are well Kingdom income. Finance Board are well aware that the question of the family in- aware of it and Finance Board are hoping come supplement is under careful considera- during the next three or four months to be tion and is likely to come forward at a able to enter into negotiations in the United

Budget--Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T743

Kingdom for a complete revision of our earn £420 free of tax. I am very sorry double taxation arrangements. I cannot indeed that the hon. member should be possibly hope to include every activity of disappointed, but I am quite sure that he Finance Board and every word that has been would be much more disappointed if we spoken in Finance Board in a Budget had put the rate up to 33 per cent. which speech, but I do hope that hon. members it is in the United Kingdom instead of realise that the affairs of the Island are maintaining it as 21,25 per cent. The hon. being looked after carefully and the affairs member, in criticising the Budget, did not of the people who live on the Island are mention our housing record which, despite also being carefully looked at. He then its shortcomings and its difficulties, I. think referred to a hum-drum Budget. I really I am safe in saying is second to none in believe that in the main the biggest majority the world particularly regarding house pur- of people in the Island appreciate a hum- chase. We have laid ourselves out to en- drum Budget much better than they would courage people to own their own houses appreciate one with startling and shocking and to lend money out for this purpose at changes. The question of the tax-free 7 per cent., is something which I am quite interest for instance was referred to by the sure is not being done anywhere else, but hon. member. We have looked into this there is no credit given in the hon. member's question of the amount of interest from remarks for our financing, without enormous savings banks that should be allowed free difficulty, this extremely expensive scheme. of tax, but we sec no reason whatever when As I have already pointed out, the interest the money is undoubtedly invested in the loss alone will be £100,000. With regard major part in the United Kingdom for to the hon. member of the Council, Mr. allowing this free of tax. As the hon. Nivison, I can say that we are no happier member for Rushen, Mr. Simcocks, has than he is about some of the impositions pointed out, in comparisons with U.K. regarding value added tax, but as we said allowances, we must consider what the a year ago, the present year will be the relevant man in the United Kingdom pays first which will provide us with any of the by comparison with the one in the Isle of information we need on which to base a Man and the man on £30 a week with two judgement as to whether we should con- children would pay nothing in the Isle of tinue to be tied to the Common Purse, or Man and as the hon. member says pay £87 whether we can securely seek freedom from in the United Kingdom. I do want to it. This next year we anticipate will bring suggest that the ho.. member should bear in very nearly £3 million from value added in mind that this is our Budget and not a tax. Now we would like to manage these tailored version of the United Kingdom affairs ourselves but it would be far too Budget. This is one which we prepare quite dangerous and too risky at this moment to independently and we are under no obli- change our position vis-a-vis the Common gation to consider at any time what the Purse unless we were quite sure that we Chancellor of the Exchequer may do in the were going to get an equal amount, by United Kingdom except in relation to those running it ourselves instead of allowing the matters which affect us under the Common United Kingdom to collect our taxes for Purse. The wife's earned income is another us. I do thank the hon. member for his one. The wife's earned income allowance general support as I also wish to thank the has been doubled in the last two years and hon. member, Mr. Simcocks, and others a married woman in the Isle of Man can who have spoken in support of the Budget.

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. T744 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

We are at the moment on the crest of a were doing very nicely thank-you. We have wave, but I think we must all remember put ourselves in a position in which we can that there are undoubtedly breakers in the help and we can do the things which Mr. distance. We know, for instance, as has Speaker wants, and the first thing we get is been mentioned, the question of nurses' pay a good slapping for having put ourselves in which is going to put up very considerably that position. Mr. Speaker even had the the cost of our Health Services. There arc audacity this morning to mention the word all kinds of pay awards in the pipeline and retrenchment. I would like to find any re- our costs will escalate and unless we arc trenchment — if you compare this green very, very careful to preserve our income we book with the pink book they have never shall not be able to meet them. There arc been so close together in the history of the possibilities of food subsidies, there arc Isle of Man and very little has been dis- demands for assistance for tourism and we allowed, so that retrenchment is not the must conserve our strength.- The hon. Mr.. word for the present time. I would really Speaker said we are in a rut. I suggest that like Mr. Speaker to tell us exactly where we have realty been out of the rut. We get this is. He referred to the Board of Agricul- the first glimpse of the sun in this present ture. The Board of Agriculture was reduced Budget. We see a position which is ap- by £58,000 and the item was replaced by proaching in which we shall be able to do another one for £160,000. Now is that re- many of the things that the hon. member trenchment? It is easy enough to pick out wants, but I do suggest to you that 13 the one that has been knocked out but we years ago when the question of the abolition did not hear about the one that had gone of surtax was being considered the hon. Mr.. in in its place. Speaker was wrong then and he is still wrong if he thinks that we should depart, The Speaker: Keep down the cost of from our policies and start spending the living, that is why, was not it? money that we have instead of keeping our position strong. Only the strong can really Mr. Bol:on: We have got to hold the help the weak and we must maintain our cost of living . . financial strength which has been achieved' over a great many years. I am quite sure' The Speaker: To the consumer, not to that Mr. Speaker if he saw a chance to agriculture. make a pound by a departure from his usual habits he would be the first to do it Mr. Bollon: As I have said, we appreciate

—(laughter)— and this is the point which, the difficulties through which agriculture we feel he must take. We do want to is going but that is no justification for support tourism and if we can find any other;' criticising the Budget when we know very way of finding the money we need then we well that these difficulties at the present , shall use it in order that we may support moment have not been apparent for a very tourism. We are also aware of the present. long time and we have them very carefully difficulties of agriculture, which, when all is in mind. I want to turn, before I close, to said and done, 1 do suggest are not of very the hon. member for Castletown because long-standing, the difficulties that are being, once again she complains that the well-off faced at the moment have come upon them get better-off and we should soak them as to a very great extent within the past few they do in the United Kingdom. I quite months. It is not very long ago that they frankly cannot see why anybody should

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T745

worry about the well-off getting better-off ful to the hon. member Miss Cowin for her unless somebody else is suffering seriously remarks which I am quite sure were very as a result of it. Taxation is levied because it much to the point is required and I do deplore the idea that it is something punitive and should be Mr. Bell: And accurate. (Laughter.) simply because somebody has got a little more. In any case, it is absolutely essential Mr. Bolton: We have our share of fools that everyone should realise that in the Isle in this Court, sir, I am sorry to say. (Laugh- of Man income tax is what has come to be ter.) known as a loss-leader and that this is the attraction which is bringing in the money Mr. MacDonald: there is no doubt. If it were increased to It takes one to know the extent that some hon. members suggest one. (Laughter.) we should revert I am sure to the days that Mr. Bolton: we knew 20 years ago. We hear about The hon. member for Middle, Mr. Ranson, I am sorry that he suggested this unsupported mother and the others that we had been unable to remove the whom the hon. member mentioned. These pound that would be charged for a pass for people do not usually pay tax and no tax riding free on a bus. I do want to assure concessions are going to be very much good him that the pound was not put in as a to them. Then again there are very many price so much as a safeguard in that we women whom I know who go out to work know that there are many, many, many because they want to go out to work and pensioners who would not need a pass, who not because they have to go out to work. I would never, perhaps, ride on a bus, but, am sorry that 1 appear to be responsible too because they could get it for nothing, would for quite a number of divorces —(laughter) go and get it. So there must be a charge —albeit perhaps indirectly but it is a matter and the charge was fixed as low as possible of great regret that the Finance Board are at £1 in order to discourage those people quite unable to meet the requirements of all from involving Government in having to the hon. member's constituents in Castle- pay for the pass for those people who, quite town. Mr. Radcliffe, the hon. member for frankly, do not need it and would probably Ayre and Chairman of the Local Govern- never use it but would go and get it if it ment Board, I do agree with him entirely was going for nothing. I think we had to that the Local Government Board have beef. discourage that. I think Mr. Irving, the hon. responsible for many =zonations with local member for East Douglas, stated the case authorities regarding housing and many for low taxation which really has brought other matters and that the credit for this us into the promised land and I would development should go to the Local Govern- agree with him regarding the question of ment Board. Finance Board and Local 75,000 population, 84,000 or 116,000. I be- Government Board have worked together lieve sincerely that we must develop the extremely well and we always find the Local economy of the Isle of Man to the benefit Government Board to be most helpful in of those people who are here and if the any difficulties which Finance Board may population increases, we endeavour to adjust have in explaining their schemes to us. I conditions both financial and otherwise as would like to take this opportunity of ap- may be required. I do not believe at any preciating the work of the hon. member time in stating targets for our population himself, (Hear, hear.) i am also very grate- and I am sure that it is not a good thing

Budget—Chairman of the Finance Board. 1 746 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

that we should do it at any time. The hon. received generally and I shall have pleasure member finally, sir, for Peel suggested that in moving the resolutions following the one customs were 60 per cent, of our income. which is now before the Court.

Mr. MacDonald: No, 55 per cent. The Governor: Is that agreed?

Mr. Bolton: 1 think at the moment they A division was called for and voting are about 50 per cent., out of a total of resulted as follow:— £171 million they arc about £8,800,000, but it is not very far off. The total Customs on In the Keys— the first page is almost half of the total receipts. For: Messrs. Anderson, Kermeen, Radcliffe, Miss Thornton-Duesbery, Mr. Irving: He was talking about Messrs. Creer, Ranson, Spittall, taxation. Simcocks, Crellin, Faragher, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Bell, Irving, Mr. Bolton: Well, general receipts. In Miss Cowin, Messrs. Devercau, Hislop, any case I do want to point out that this Sir Henry Sugden and the Speaker — 19. percentage is very much less than it was years ago and that the gradual increase in Against: Messrs. Clucas, Kneale and income tax receipts has brought down the MacDonald-3. proportion of our money found from direct taxation. The only way in which this per- The Speaker: Your Excellency, the re- centage can be reduced is by increasing the solution carries in the Keys, 19 votes being amount received from other taxes, so that cast in favour and three votes against. your total increases without having to increase direct taxes. I do want to correct In the Council one statement that he made and that was that the poor people pay all the taxes. The For: Messrs. Bolton, Radcliffe, Nivison, direct taxes are paid by everybody and the Crowe, Kerruish and Quayle-6. wealthy man pays more than the poor man because the wealthy . . Against: Nil.

Mr. Irving: You mean indirect? The Governor: The resolution carries in the Council, six in favour and none against. Mr. Bolton: indirect taxes, I am sorry, The resolution therefore carries, I would arc paid by everyone, and the rich man pays suggest, hon. members, this might be a a lot more than the poor man does, we know convenient moment to adjourn and the this. Surely, he buys the expensive motor Court re-convenes at 2.30 p.m. when we car, he buys the expensive television, he will continue with the Agenda No. 2, and buys the expensive jewellery that the poor also with the concurrence of the Court, man cannot afford and all this tax is Petitioners will he heard at 4.30 p.m. this relative to the amount that is spent, so that afternoon. this argument about the poor man paying is one which will not hold water. I do wish It was agreed. to thank hon. members, Your Excellency, for the way in which the Budget has been The Court adjourned for lunch.

Budget—Chairman of .the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T747

GOVERNMENT TREASURER'S set out in the said column 2 GENERAL, REVENUE PAYMENTS. totalling £2,529,740; (c) That, upon Tynwald approval to The Governor: Hon, members, item No. 4 such projects being obtained, the on Agenda No. 2, 1 call upon the Chair- Treasurer be authorised to expend during the year ending 31s't March, man of the Finance Board. 1975, from Capital Transactions Account, sums not exceeding Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, 1 beg to those set out in column 3 of the move:— Appendix totalling f1,123,610. (1) That the Treasurer of the Isle of Mah (d) That Tynwald sanctions advances be authorised ro apply from the curl- not exceeding £5,961,300 being rent revenue of this Isle during made by Government, such ad- the year ending 31st March, 1975, vances to he repaid within the sums not exceeding those set out in appropriate periods as set out in 'column 3 of the Appendix to the column 4 of the Appendix. Treasurer's Revenue Estimates I do not think there is any need for me to totalling £20,147,730, being the go right through it, sir. amounts required by the Department., and Boards set out in the Appendix after deduction of the receipts of the The Governor: Is it seconded, sir? said Departments and Boards (esti- mated at the sums set opposite their Mr. Devereaux I beg to second, names in column 2 of the A ppendiA) to enable those Departinents and The Governor: Is that agreed? Boards to expend sums not exceeding those set out in column 1 of th'e It was agreed. Appendix for the purpose of carrying into effect the services approved 4 by Tynwald. Such sum of £20,147,730 to in- INCOME TAX RATES — clude the sum of £2,358,600 voted by RESIDENT. Tynwald on 19th March, 1974. Pro- vided that a Department or Board The Governor: Item No. 5. may, with the prior written approvtil of the Finance Board, transfer savings on any main heads to meet additiondi Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to anticipated expenditure to be incurred move:— on any other main heads of its yore. That for the year commencing the Gth (2) (a) That the Treasurer of the Isle of day of April, 1974, and ending the 5th day Man be authorised to expend of April, 1975, the standard rate of Income during the year ending 31St March. Tax shall be the rate of 21.25 per cent. 1975, from Capital Transactions This deals with the rates of income tax for Account, sums not exceeding residents. those set out in column 1 of the Appendix totalling £2,307,950 (being expenditure on projects Mr. Devereaux I beg to second. already approved by Tynwald); Your Excellency, may I just (b) That TynwUld approves of the Mrs. Quayle: expenditure detailed in column 2 have a second bite at the cherry and say of the Appendix and authorises that I did not use the words "punish" or the Treasurer to expend during "soak the rich- in the matter of applying the year ending 31st March, 1975, this rate. I merely questioned the ethics of from Capital Transactions Ac- count, sums not exceeding those the very much better-off increasing their

Government Treasurer's General Revenue Payments. — Income Tax Rates—Resident. F748 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

relative position income-wise on this Island, Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to relative to their position had they remained move:— in the United Kingdom; it is dishonest to That in accordance with the provisions of pretend that the only course open is to soak section 119 of the Income Tax AiL-t, 1970, them. I believe that excessive action is a Tynwald hereby resolves that in sub-section very unwise thing in most matters and that (1) of section 35 of the Income Tax Act, 1970 (which relates to personal allowances) one should be sensible and be in the middle in respect of the income tax year con- of the road. menicing on the 6th day of April, 1974, for the words "seven hundred and seventy five The Governor: is that agreed? pounds" there shall be substituted the words "eight hundred and fifty pounds" and for It was agreed. the words "five hundred pounds" there shall be substituted the words "five hundred and fifty pounds". This deals with personal allowances which INCOME TAX RATES - were explained this morning in the Budget NON-RESIDENT. speech.

The Governor: Item No. 6. The Chair- Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, sir. man of the Finance Board. The Governor: Is that agreed? Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— It was agreed. That for the year commencing the 6th day of April, 1974, and ending the 5th day of April, 1975, the Income Tax payable on every of taxable income derived by any person not residing in this Island, or AMENDMENT OF INCOME TAX any association not registered in this Island, ACT 1970—AGED PERSONS SMALL from any tnade, profession, employment or INCOME RELIEF. vocation carried on by such person or association in this Island and from any other source within this Island. shall be at the rate The Governor: 1:em No. 8. The Chair- of 21.25 per cent. man of the Finance Board. This item deals with the rates of non- resident tax. Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— Mr. Devereau: I beg to second. Thal, in accordance with the provisions of section 119 of the Income Tax Act, 1970, Is that agreed? The Governor: Tynwald hereby resolves that in section 43 of the Income Tax Act, 1970 (which relates It was agreed. to relief for certain aged persons with small incomes) in respect of the income tax year commencing on the 6th day of April, 1974- (a) In subsection ( I) of the said section AMENDMENT OF for the words "seven hundred and INCOME TAX ACT 1970— eighteen pounds" there shall be sub- PERSONAL ALLOWANCES. stituted the words "seven hundred and eighty-four pounds"; The Governor: Item No. 7. The Chair- (b) In sub-section (2) of the said section man of the Finance Board. for the words "nine hundred and

Income Tax Rates—Nol-Resident.— Amendment of Incom: Tax Act I976—Personal Allowances.— Amendment of Income Tax Act 1970—Aged Persons Small Income Relief. TYNWALI) COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T749

-.M.Mi712:111.•

ninety-five pounds" there shall he respect of the income tax year commencing substituted the words "one thousand, on the 6th day of April, 1974 — one hundred and twenty pounds"; • (a) For the words "seven hundred and len (c) in sub-section (3) of the said Section . pounds" where they appear in sub- for the words "seven hundred and section (1) of the said section and eighteen pounds or nine hundred and where they three times appear in sub- ninety-five pounds" where those words section (2) of the said section, there twice appear there shall be substituted shall be substituted the words "seven the words "seven hundred and eighty hundred and seventy-six pounds"; four pounds or one thousand, one hundred and twenty pounds"; (b) For the words "nine hundred and eleven pounds" where they appear in (d) In proviso (a) to subsection (3) of the the proviso to the said subsection said section for the words "Seven (2) there shall be substituted the hundred and fifty-two pounds" there words "nine hundred and ninety-five shall be substituted the words "eight pounds"; hundred and seventeen pounds"; and (e) In proviso (b) to sub-section (3) of No. 9, Your Excellency, deals with deduc- the said section for the words "one tions from small incomes when the age thousand and seventeen pounds" there allowance does not apply. shall be substituted the words -one thousand, one hundred and forty-two Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, sir. pounds". No. 8, Your Excellency, deals with certain The Governor: Is that agreed? reliefs for aged persons with small incomes and deals with certain marginal reliefs. I beg It was agreed. to move, sir.

Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, sir. AMENDMENT OF INCOME TAX. The Governor: Is that agreed? ACT 19/0—CHILD ALLOWANCE. It was agreed. The Governor: Item No. 10.

Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— AMENDMENT OF INCOME • TAX ACF 1970—SMALL INCOME , That in accordance with the provisions of section 119 of the Income Tax Act, 1970, RELIEF. Tynwald hereby resolves that in section 36 of the Income Tax Act 1970 (which relates The Governor: Item No. 9. The Chair; to the deduction in respect of children) in respect of the income tax year commencing man of the Finance Board. on the 6th day of April, 1974 — (ra) For the words "Two hundred and Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, l beg to thirty pounds" where they appear in move:— paragraph (a) of sub-section (2) of the That in accordance with the provisions said section, there shall be substituted of section 119 of the Income Tax Act, 1970; the words "Two hundred and fifty Tynwald hereby resolves that in section 42 pounds"; of the Income Tax Act, 1970 (which relates (b) For the words "One hundred and to the deduction in respect of small. incomes seventy-five pounds" where they ap- when age allowance does not apply) in pear in paragraph (b) of the said .sub-

Amendment of Income Tax Act. 1970—Small Income Relief.— Amendment of Income Tax Tax Act 1970—Child Allowance. T750 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

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section (2) there shall be substituted That in accordance with the provisions of the words "Two hundred pounds"; .sectidti 119 of the Income Tax Act, 1970. (c) For the words "One hundred and Tynwald hereby resolves that in subsection forty-five pounds" where they appear (1) of section 34 of the Income Tax Act, in paragraph (c) of the said subsection 1970 (which relates to earned income (2) there shall be substituted the allowance) in respect of the income tax year words "One hundred and sixty commencing on the 6th day of April, 1974, pounds". for the words "seven hundred and fifty pounds" there shall be substituted the words No. 10, Your Excellency, deals with the in- "nine hundred pounds". crease in children's allowances. I beg to Item No. 11. sir, increases the allowance in move. respect of earned income, 1 beg to move. Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, sir. Mr. Devereau: I beg to second. Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, there is an amendment standing in my name to the The Governor: Is that agreed? effect that children under school-leaving age shall be allowed an extra tax relief allow- It was agreed. ance of £52 in the year, that is £47 on the amount allowed last year.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, AMENDMENT OF INCOME TAX feel I should advise you that in this matter, ACT 1970—WIFE'S EARNED INCOME the amendment proposed by the hon. mem- RELIEF. ber, Mrs. Quayle. is out of order, because, section 119 of the Income Tax Act provides The Governor: Item No. 12. for sums of money to be amended. It does not provide for a new category of allowance Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to or new category of children to be intro- move:— duced. That is apart altogether from con- That in accordance with the provisions siderations of section 11 of the Isle of Man of section 119 of the Income Tax Act, 1970. Constitution Act 1961. Tynwald hereby resolves that in subsection (2) of section 35 of the Income Tax Act. The Governor. I accept the advice and 1970 (which relates to the allowance in rule the proposed amendment out of order. respect of a wife's earned income) in respect Agreed? of the income tax year commencing on the bth day of April, 1974, for the words "Two hundred and forty pounds" there shall be It was agreed. substituted the words "Three hundred pounds". No. 12, Your Excellency, deals with the wife's earnings and there is a special al- AMENDMENT OF INCOME lowance in respect of a wife's earnings. TAX ACT 1970—EARNED INCOME ALLOWANCE. Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, Your Excellency. The Governor: Item No. 11. The Governor: Is that agreed'? Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to It was agreed.

■■•■Y••••■••■ •••••••••• • Amendment of Income Tax Act 1970—Earned Income Allcwance.— Amendment of Income Tax Act, 1970—Wife's Earned Income Relief. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T751

AMENDMENT OF INCOME income Tax Act which refers throughout TAX ACT 1970 IN RESPECT OF to "he" and this resolution will enable it to AGE RELIEF. be extended to female claimants but it will require an alteration to the statutes. I beg The Governor: Item No, 13. to move, sir.

Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, Your move:— Excellency. In seconding this, Your Excel- That in accordance with the provisions of lency, may 1 in fact, make a plea with the section 119 of the Income Tax Act, 1970, drafting department that the necessary Bill Tynwald hereby resolves that in section 41 to bring these into law should be expedited. of the Income Tax Act, 1970 (which relates In the past we have had Income Tax Bills to deduction in respect of an individual's age) in respect of the income tax year coming some six, seven or eight months commencing on the 6th day of April, 1974, after the passing of the Budget and 1 think for the words "eight hundred pounds" there it is quite contrary to what happens in the shall be substituted the words "one thousand other countries where the Finance Act fol- pounds". lows straight after the Budget and these Item No. 13, Your Excellency, deals with provisions become law. Therefore I would the allowance in respect of aee in lieu of make this plea that the necessary Bills for earned income allowance. 1 beg to move. passing through the branches should be made reasonably quickly. Mr. Devereau: I beg to second, sir. The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, The Governor: Is that agreed? in this case there will be only one amend- ment to be made. A one-clause Bill prac- It was agreed. tically will be the only legislation required to bring these into effect.

The Speaker: Your Excellency, like the AMENDMENT OF INCOME TAX hon. member for Douglas West, Mr. ACT 1970—LEGISLATION TO BE Devereau, I feel that there is a need here for INTRODUCED. examination of the position. We are asking 'he Governor to cause legislation to be The Governor: Item No. 14. introduced. I recall a year ago we asked Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to His Excellency to cause legislation to be move:— introduced to have a £5,000 deposit with Government and arrangements for a That Tynwald respectfully requests His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor to cause • "penalty" on living in the Isle of Man. Now legislation to be prepared and introduced this was passed here and I am not saying into the House of Keys to make the re- whether I am in favour of it or against it quired amendments to the Income Tax Act at this moment but, ne':crtheless, the point 1970 to bring into efectf in respect of the was that this Court accepted, as far as I income tax year commencing on the 6th day of April, 1974, and each succeeding am aware, the general principle for intro- year the proposals outlined in the Budget duction as legislation and we have not re- statement. ceived it. There are people wondering Item No. 14, sir, is a resolution which has whether they are going to come into the the effect of clarifying the section in the Isle of Man and be taxed on a retrospective

Amendment of Income Tax Act 1970 in Respect of Age Bel:cf.—Amendment of Income Tax Act 1970—Legislation to be Introduced. T752 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

basis. Will they, in fact, have to make pay- Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I beg to ment on transactions which have occurred ask Will Your Excellency take up with since we took our decision in this Court the relevant Committee of your Executive that legislation would have to be introduced. Council the adequate provision in the We arc getting in a dreadful mess in relation Central Government Office complex, at a to retrospective legislation and I do feel place easily accessible to the general public, here, Your Excellency, that when we ask for of a Government bookshop where copies legislation to be prepared, like the hon. of all types of Government publications member has said, it be prepared quickly, (particularly those of topical interest) can otherwise we are having confusion, people be examined and purchased? do not know whether they are coming or going in certain cases. The Governor: I am advised by the Cen- tral Offices Committee that present plans The Governor: is that agreed? provide for a large public counter with a room adjacent thereto for the storage of II was agreed. Acts, reports, regulations and similar public documents. I am also advised that discussion is currently proceeding between that Com- INTRODUCTION OF A MANX mittee and the Printing Committee of Tyn- HONOUR—QUESTION BY wald on matters related to the hon. mem- MRS. QUAYLE. ber's question which I will bring to the notice of both Committees. The Governor: That concludes Agenda No, 2. We now return to the main Agenda. Mr. Clucas: Thank you, Your Excellency, Item No. 4, questions. I call upon the hon. would you particularly draw attention to the member for Castletown to ask the question emphasis on the perusal and examination of standing in her name. Government publications. At the moment you must go in and purchase or not, there Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to is no opportunity at all for looking and ask —Will Your Excellency have investi- examining and knowing and consulting the gated the possibility of instituting a Manx documents. The other point is, to make sure Honour, such as an Island Order of Merit, that the Orders, Acts and Bills that emanate with a view to recognising those persons from many, many sources of Government who have given exceptional voluntary ser- should be all in. the one place. vice to the community? The Gosernor: Yes, sir, on both counts. The Governor: Yes, madam, the matter will be looked into. DELAY IN PROVISION OF U.H.F. COLOUR PROGRAMMES UNTIL 1976 PROVISION OF GOVERNMENT —QUESTION BY MR. IRVING. BOOKSHOP IN CENTRAL GOVERNMENT OFFICES— The Governor: Question No. 3. The hon. QUESTION BY MR. CLUCAS. member for East Douglas, Mr. Irving. •

The Governor: Question No. 2. The hon. Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to member for Ayre, ask As it has been decided that the

Introduction of a Manx irci,7our-01.:estion by Mrs. Quay7,2 — Provision of Government Bookshop in Central Government Offices—Question by Mr. Clucas.—Delay in Provision of U.H.F. Colour Programmes Until 1976—Question by Mr. Irving. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T753,

existing Carnane T.V. station is to be used provided using special and complex equip- to provide U.H.F. colour programmes to the ment, or whether only a service from greater Douglas area and in consequence Colbcck is possible. We are aware of the half the Island's population, will the Chair- requirement for U.H.F. in the Isle of Man man explain why this is unlikely to come and we are treating the extensions of the into service before 1976? service to the Island as a matter of urgency, but we cannot, with the present difficulties with deliveries and financial constraints, Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, I beg to possibly promise the station can be re- quote from a letter from the head of equipped before 1976. You may be pleased engineering B.B.C. which states: "Regarding to know that the visit last week of Mr. development of Douglas station to U.H.F. Clementson, our engineer, was successful. He television colour programmes, there are tells me that he has now had the consent many different phases to be carried through in principle from the owners for us to use during the installation of U.H.F. television the sites we will need at Port St. Mary stations, most of which have to be dealt with and Laxey relay stations". Signed, Wood, consecutively. Furthermore, the work on site engineer. I will pass a copy of this letter to is not the only consideration since the the hon. member if he so requires. steady flow of specialised parts and units is dependent upon progress in the factories of Mr. Irving: I am obliged to the hon. many suppliers arid, at any one time, we member, sir. have between 70 and 100 stations in the pipe- line. Were we able to concentrate all our re- Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, may I ask sources and those of our suppliers on a single a supplementary? Is the Chairman, in view station there is no doubt that the period of the dues collected by the television could be reduced substantially, but, in prac- people, content that we are getting pro- tice, and despite our most rigorous efforts portionate treatment for the Isle of Man? we usually require two years for the con- Proportionate that is to the number of struction of a U.H.F. television transmitting television sets and is the reception commen- station. The alterations necessary to adapt surate with what is paid for? the Carnanc site for will require about this length of time. Our main concern Mr. Quayle: I can only reply, Your Excel- at Carnane is the loading of the mast and lency, to the hon. member and say I am our construction engineers are carrying out never content with the services we get, but the calculations to sec if it can carry the it is a large problem and it is only varying additional loading. If it will not, we will by about six months from the original have to transfer the existing service to a estimate made in 1971 which, in view of new tower and to undertake strengthening the short working conditions, etc., is not work, which will be time consuming, unreasonable. especially with the present shortage of steel. A further concern is whether we will be Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, may I just, able to provide the north-west regional pro- I think it would assist hon. members of gramme from this station. Recordings of the the Court and clarify the position if, sir, reception quality of Winter Hill at Carnane you gave the date of that letter. It does are being made over a period of some not indicate which year. Could I possibly months so that a final decision can be taken have the date of this letter, sir. In the hon. on whether a north-west service can be member's reply it went into great detail in

Delay in Provision of U.H.F. Colour Programmes Until 1976—Question by Mr. Irving. T754 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

taking two years to install U.H.F. trims- Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, in reply mitters, I think it would really he helpful to the hon. Mr. Speaker's question may to know when the letter was written so I first say the Broadcasting Commission we can anticipate when the two years applaud the efforts of the residents of Laxey commence. in endeavouring to obtain an improved television service by providing their own Mr. Quayle: I am sorry, sir, I thought the receiver transmitter or, better known, as a hon. member was being facetious — 15th translater. However, the Laxey Television May, one week ago. Committee were at all times aware that a licence from the Ministry of Post and Tele- Mr. Clucas: "Shank you, sir. communications was required before they could operate this equipment as indicated Mr. Irving: Since my question was tabled, by the correspondence on this matter. The sir? Committee were also aware the Ministry had indicated such a licence would not be Mr. Quayle: Yes. sir. In answer to your issued to the Laxey Television Committee question. but only to the Broadcasting Commission. As a result the Broadcasting Commission applied for the licence on behalf of the Laxey Television Committee and, like that LAXEY T.V. COMMITTEE— Committee, the Broadcasting Commission PROVISION OF SERVICE AND were horrified to learn the cost of the REQUEST FOR REMOVAL OF licence which was originally put at £490 LICENCE CHARGE—QUESTION The Broadcasting Commission took up strongly at that stage, which was March BY THE SPEAKER. 1973, with the Ministry the cost of the licence but only succeeded in getting part Question No. 4, The hon. The Governor: of that amount spread over a period of Mr. Speaker. three years. In order to avoid further con- tinuing delay in the provision of improved Your Excellency, I beg to The Speaker: reception for the Laxey area, the Broad- ask— (I) Will you confirm that residents of casting Commission paid the licence fee to Laxcy having by their own voluntary and the authority in the expectancy that the corporate effort succeeded in providing a Laxey Television Committee would refund television service for the district have now this money to the Commission. The Broad- received a demand for a licence fee of £250 casting Commission is certainly willing to with a subsequent annual fee of £80? (2) As make representations to the Home Office this is not only manifestly unfair but a poor who are now the authority responsible for enterprise shown by the ! reward for the such matters with a view to the removal of Laxcy T.V. Committee, will your Commis- . this charge and will report the results of cion make the strongest possible represen- such representations to Tynwald in due tations to the Home Office to remove this course. charge and to provide an adequate service by the B.B.C. and I.B.A. for which Latey licence-holders have contributed but which The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am in- they have not received except by their own debted to the hon. member for his reply efforts? and T would ask him whether or not, in

Laxey T.V. Committee—FroNi3ion of Service and Request IX; ova 1 of Licence Charge —Question by the Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T755

making representations to the Home Office, officials of the Board of Education, will you he would indicate to the Home Office that indicate —.(1) why there has been continual they no longer have responsibility for postal delays in starting this work when the money services in the Isle of Man and the loss was made available for this purpose by they were sustaining in that connection in Tynwald when they approved the money the operation of them which is part of the vote for the building of the school? (2) Common Purse agreement and that in con- what increa.7.e there has been in the cost of nection with television now and supply in this work becauSe of the delay? (3) when the Isle of Man, for which all Manx people can the people in the area, especially those pay a licence, we would expect that as part in Somerset Road who were the first to of that Common Purse agreement we should agree, expect to have the promised walls r have these facilities provided on the same built? basis to the Manx viewers as the English viewers? The Governor: The Chairman of the Board of Education. Mr. Quayle: I can assure the hon. Mr. Speaker I will try that ploy, sir. Miss Thornton-Duesbery: Your Excel- lency, I am indeed aware of the negotiations which took place with the residents living adjacent to the site of Ballaquaylc Infants BOUNDARY WALLS, School prior to the erection of that building BALLAQUAYLE INFANTS SCHOOL and I would say at once with what concern —DELAY IN BUILDING— and my Board have regarded the most QUESTION BY MR. KNEALE. unfortunate and unwelcome delay in carry- ing out the promises made. The Board of The Governor: Question No. 5. The hon. Education would wish at all times to fulfil member for West Douglas, Mr. Kneale. undertakings given in its name and as quickly as possible and it is with particular Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I beg to regret that this delay has occurred in the ask — Are you aware that, prior to the fulfilment of such made by my hon. and building of Ballaquayle Infants School, distinguished predecessor when Chairman of negotiations took place with the residents the Board, Mr. Kneale. I am also aware living adjacent to the site and agreement that it was decided to proceed with part of was reached with many of them that a the proposal because of the difficulty in boundary wall would be built by the Board securing the agreement with all parties. It of Education if they would give up their is not correct, however, to say that no action rights to have a lane at the rear of their has been taken to date to fulfil these premises? Are you also aware that nearly promises. It would be more true to say that two years ago as one or two of these action has never ceased behind the scenes residents had not agreed to give up their in order to secure their fulfilment. The right to a rear access to their premises a delay in the actual starting of the work is promise was made to other residents who attributable to a number of facts, including, had agreed that the walls at the rear of in the first instance, the desire of the Board their premises would be erected without to secure the agreement of all parties and, further delay? As no action has been taken secondly, to the fact that while agreement to date to fulfil these promises despite many in principle was achieved with certain of approaches by myself to both members and the owners, negotiations over details eon-

Boundary Walls, Ballaquayle Infants School—Delay in Building—Question by Mr. Kneale. T756 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

tinned until very recently. The aim of the for the construction of the new service lane Board was to secure, not only agreement in may proceed. I gave my reply, Your Excel- principle, but legal agreement to their lency, as I began with an expression of proposals, without prejudice in any way sincere regret for the delay but with con- to the rights of those owners who did fidence that the property owners of the not wish to participate in the scheme. It locality will benefit greatly by the work was necessary to ensure that any such rights completed in the very near future and were not encroached upon. f believe it enjoy the undoubted improvement to the will be readily understood how long such whole area. negotiations inevitably take. The hon. member Mr. Kneale spoke to me on several Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I thank occasions extending over several months the hon. member for her reply and am de- regarding the urgency of the work on behalf lighted to see that work has started this of the residents of the locality. Fully sharing week. his concern I, each time, made particular investigation into the progress of the whole situation for myself. I was reluctantly con- vinced, however, that all possible that could RESTRICTIONS ON SALE OF be done to expedite the business was being MANX EGGS—QUEST1ON BY done. The situation now, however, is a MR. BELL. much happier one. Of the three property owners in Somerset Road who had expressed The Governor: Question No. 6. The hon. agreement, two have now executed the legal member for Soulh Douglas, Mr. Bell. agreement and the third has indicated that the terms are acceptable and stated that Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, 1 beg to ask— there was no objection to the work pro- (1) Will you outline what restrictions are ceeding. Since I prepared my answer to this imposed on the sale of Manx produced eggs question, the day before yesterday, the neces- and what sanctions are preventing producers, sary legal document has arrived at the office wholesalers and retailers from selling these and is awaiting signature. Quotations for the eggs at a reduced price? (2) What measures work having been obtained, which necessi- are your Council advocating and prOmoting tated some negotiation on account of the price to ensure that consumers in the island quoted, it has been possible finally to com- benefit from the present plentiful supply of mence work on the wall behind certain of Manx eggs which producers wish to market the Somerset Road houses on Thursday last, at a price below that now ruling? the 16th May. Because of rising building costs it is estimated that this work will now The Governor: The Chairman of the cost £1,500, while, had it been carried out Consumer Council. a year ago the cost would probably have been around £1,300. The Thorny Road Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, this ques- scheme regarding which all parties have now tion is in two parts dealing with the problem signed formal agreement will now cost of Manx eggs. In reply to part (1) of the about £4,000, whereas the original estimate question, the restrictions imposed on the sale was £3,500. Instruction to build the required of Manx produced eggs and the sanctions brick wall in this locality has been given and preventing producers, wholesalers and re- negotiations regarding an acceptable tender tailers from selling these eggs at a reduced

Restrictions on Sale of Manx Eggs—Queatio:i by Mr. Bell. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, ]974 T757

price arc contained in the Agricultural Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, there are a Marketing (No. 2) Act 1948, and the Agri- few supplementaries and I would like to put cultural Marketing Act 1954 and the orders them one at a time, if that would suit the made thereunder. The hon. member will note Court and the Chairman of the Consumer that the sanctions are separate. In answer to Council. Would the Chairman of the part (2) of the question and, incidentally, Consumer Council assure the Court that, this reply is given and the dates contained notwithstandii1; any statutory regulations therein show a date before the question was under any previous marketing Act, that his tabled, to get the position clear, the Con- Consumer Council will do their public duty sumer Council wrote to the Isle of Man• and protect the public rather than protect Board of Agriculture and Fisheries on I I th the validity of the Acts in force? April of 1974 asking for the observations of the Agricultural Marketing Committee Mr. Simcocks: Existing Acts. on a request from Messrs. Shoprite Limited, that there be no control on the price of Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may I Manx eggs, this was on the I I th April. The ask a supplementary? I would like to ask Agricultural Marketing Committee, which the Chairman of the Consumer Council if is incidentally representing both producer : he is not in agreement that, at this present and consumer interests, had expressed the point in time, had it not been for such opinion that this was another gimmick to , protection as those Acts gave that the corner the retail market. It was felt by position of egg supplies in this Island at this them that the fixed price system created very point in time would be very difficult regularity of supply and was in the con- indeed. sumers' long term interest. The Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and the Consumer Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, i can assure Council agreed with the policy that this did my hon. friend, the hon member for South create regularity of supplies and was in the Douglas, that I am not speaking on a long term interest of the consumer. As personal note when I give these replies, 1 wholesalers could now freely import E.E.C. am speaking on the advice of my own grades of eggs of both English and Con- Consumer Council. On the point that he tinental origin, the consumer has freedom has made particularly with regard to will of choice between the fixed price of Manx ! we look after the consumer interests in this eggs and the imported product which ha:,. problem, now this is the second attempt no control price. The suggestion that there that has been made to persuade the Con- was a plentiful supply of Manx eggs is not , sumer Council to take a specific line on a supported by the producers at this particular • commodity where there is a price diffeiential moment. I would point out, however, that between that which appertains in the U.K. the Consumer Council introduced the Identi- and that which appertains here. On the fication of Imported Eggs Order as a pro- . question of eggs, when we are dealing with tective measure to ensure that imported eggs eggs and the control of the Manx market, offered for sale should be clearly identified. as I have already said, the Consumer Council I am merely making this point to show that support the view of the other associations the Consumer Council are aware of prob- who are dealing with it, that it is in .the lems in the field of egg marketing and we ; long term interests of the Manx consumer have taken certain steps in order to ensure that we ensure a market that eggs will be that the market is right. supplied at a regular space of interval in

Restrictions on Sale of Manx Eggs—Question by Mr. Bell. T758 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

the Manx market. If we agree to some grades of eggs. Provided that they go system of saying, and this did happen through the E.E.C. packing stations English recently, one member in the producers and Continental eggs can be provided and association asked whether he could under- can be introduced into the Island without cut. It was felt by everybody who was any restrictions whatsoever except those laid interested in the consumer that if this down by E.E.C. So it is only a question of business got to the stage where it became going through the packing stations and you a cut-price effort and producers went out can have either English or Continental eggs of production, it is then not in the interests under E.E.C. standards. of the consumer and provided the alternative is there, that a cheaper product is available, Mr. Bell: A final question, Your Excel- maybe not of the same quality, we feel that lency. Is the Chairman of the Consumer it is in the interests of the Manx community Council aware that an egg producer of some to keep our egg production going and to considerable size in the north of the Island ensure that the price is reasonable and fair recently, because of a glut of eggs, wanted and this can only be done by the Agri- permission to reduce the price so he could cultural Marketing Committee who, as I freely give them to the consumers on the have said before, deal with both sides of Island and this stupid regulation prohibited the industry, both the consumer and the him at the risk of prosecution and, in the producer. light of that, whether the Chairman is in- formed of it or not, will he in fact make Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, the hon. enquiries to ascertain the accuracy of this Chairman did say that there was a plentiful statement and make recommendations in the supply of English and other eggs which can interests of the consumers and the producers be imported into the Island to supplement in this Island? (Interruptions.) the Island production. Would he now con- firm to Tynwald Court that, in fact, the Mr. Moore: Your Excellency, I know that Board of Agriculture are not in fact issuing there was a case and i did mention this permits for the importation of fresh English briefly in passing, there was a case of a or Irish eggs because they state there is a producer suggesting that he should sell his plentiful supply of E.E.C. eggs available? eggs at below the price laid down „ . Would the Chairman further confirm that it is not necessary for any person to have Mr. Simcocks: To whom? permission to import E.E.C. inferior eggs and they can flood the Island but it is Mr. Moore: He ate his words immediately. required to have an approved application On the same night the producers held a to import fresh English or fresh Irish eggs? meeting and the wholehearted agreement at that meeting was that none of the producers Mr. Moore: Dealing with that particular wished to go below the price which was question, Your Excellency, the position is laid down. This particular producer who said this. There is no control whatsoever at he had a surplus of eggs ate his words the present on the importation of English eggs same night and he said he did not want to and-Continental eggs provided they come go below the price. It may have been a case under E.E.C. standards. The E.E.C. stan- of somebody moving in on that particular dards, of course, were laid down by the occasion could have bought them for a UK. Government and they entail seven penny a dozen cheaper from him, but I did

Restrictions on Sale of Manx Eggs—Question by Mr. Bell. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T759

not know about this, All I know is that the although it was actually stated on the packet same man said at the producers meeting what the price was at that particular time that he was not prepared to reduce the because these regulations only came in in price. (Interruptions.) If you want to name England on the 1st April 1974. The retailer names I will name him. Mr. Metcalfe. will have to account for value added tax on all of these sales from the 1st April 1974. In order to foster good customer relations, however, some retailers are selling off their CONFUSION RE V.A.T. ON existing stocks at prc-V,A.T. prices as EXISTING STOCKS OF SWEETS, ETC. marked on the wrappers. This means that —QUESTION BY MR. KNEALE. the retailer is paying the V.A.T. and not the consumer. On part (b) of the question, strictly speaking since the 1st April 1974 The Governor: Question No. 7. The hon. these goods should have been advertised at member for West Douglas, Mr. Kneale. the V.A.T. inclusive price. Again, after representation from the Consumer Council, Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, 1 beg to ask —Since the introduction of value added some sweets have been sold at the prices tax on sweets and crisps in April 1974 has indicated on the wrappers despite the confused the general public over the correct announced price increases. On question (c) retail price for existing stocks marked at it does become rather involved. The correct pre-V.A.T. prices, will the Chairman of the value added tax on any purchase which is Consumer Council please explain — (a) at liable to this tax should he one-eleventh of what price should these goods be sold now the price paid by the consumer. There are, that V.A.T. is chargeable? (b) how should however, certain complications which I the goods be advertised for sale? (c) what is would mention. On the advice of the the correct V.A.T. chargeable in the case Customs and Excise department, one of the of three ice-creams bought separately for 3p points raised by the questioner, if a retailer each and three ice-creams bought together advertised ice-cream or crisps at 34p in- clusive of V.A.T. then there is no offence for 3p each? committed. If he advertises them and puts The Governor: The Chairman of the them on show that this is inclusive of Consumer Council. V.A.T. it is 3k-p_ If they are advertised at 3p, as suggested by the questioner, well the Mr. Moore: This question is not quite only diffenece is that the retailer is then so complicated, Your Excellency, but it has only entitled on three items at 3p to charge complications. This is a question, of course, 1 p, so you will get the same items for 10p dealing with items which were only subject if he did not actually show it on the packet. to V.A.T. from the 1st April this year and Now I have said this is a confusing situation, the question is in three parts. Question (a) but this is the legal situation according to the sweets and crisps, 1 have included all of Customs and Excise. All that has to happen these items, sweets and crisps in the shops is that, in his own interests, the retailer before the 1st April 1974, marked on their should advertise the goods at the price wrappers at pre-V.A.T. prices, should be inclusive of V.A.T. There are further com- sold at a price inclusive of V.A.T. In other plications to this, but 1 do not want to bore words they were entitled under the Customs the Court, for instance, the question of and Excise regulations to raise the price separate packets of sweets advertised at 7p

Confusion re V.A.T. on Existing Stocks of Sweets, Etc.—Question by Mr. Kncalc. T760 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

with the price already on them. Quite rebates and subsidies for persons in the obviously 2Ip worth of sweets, three dif- community who have low incomes would ferent packets, he would only be entitled if not be an equitable or fair use of public it was not shown on the packet, he would moneys. The rebatement of a tenant's rent only be entitled to charge an extra 2p. If by reason of the higher electricity charges he puts on each packet 7p inclusive of 1 p would obviously lead to a case which would V.A.T. he would be entitled to pinch be difficult to resist with similar circum- another penny off the consumer. I do not stances for a corresponding abatement due think the retailer would go to this step. to an increase, shall we say, in gas prices This is the bones of the question and I am and later, when solid fuel prices rise as sorry if it is a hit confusing. It is confusing predicted above their present level, for a to me as well. similar scheme of subsidy to be offered to those tenants who use this type of fuel. Furthermore, if rebates are given by Govern- ment to persons living in houses in a public REBATE FOR TENANTS OF sector, why should they also not be given L.G.B. "ALL-ELECTRIC" HOUSES to persons of low income within the private sector. There may be many people in pri- —QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER. vately rented accommodation of all ages who are experiencing financial difficulties The Governor: Question No. 8. The hon. because of high, rents and are awaiting Mr. Speaker. allocation of local authority or Local Government Board houses at subsidised The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg leave rents. I am not opposed in any way to giving to ask —Will your Board agree that in their estates such as Glen Mooar, Laxey, where direct or indirect assistance to those in the community who need it, but I do not be- electric power is the sole method of heating lieve it is appropriate or just to pick out on and lighting, an inordinate financial burden is now falling on the tenants who obviously an arbitrary basis one particular factor have limited means? Will your Board there- which is influencing living costs, such as electricity charges and to offer rent rebates fore design and implement a system of rent to off-set those charges to the tenants of or other rebates to compensate for the any selected housing estates. exceptional proportion of the tenants' in- come which must now be expended on electricity? Mr: Bolton: Your Excellency, could I ask a supplementary of the hon. member? Is The Governor: The Chairman of the Isle Acre any means test applied to tenants in of Man Local Government Board. 'order to qualify them to live in this par- ticular estate? Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the hon, Mr. Speaker's question was considered Mr. P. Radcliffe: There is no means test. by the Local Government Board on Friday Let me start at the very beginning. First of last, the 17th May. The Board is of the all if we get an applicant who puts his name opinion that to pay rent rebate to the down on the Local Government Board list tenants of certain estates to compensate for a house, there is no means test at that them for the high cost of electricity in stage brought into being whatsoever. If when isolation from the agreed overall policy on allocating a house we make enquiries as to 4

Rebate for Tenants of L.G.B. "All-Electric" Houses—Question by the Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T761

his income, if his income is in excess of find it exorbitant, too high to pay these what we think is the income of a certain charges for electricity, they can apply to person, for a council house then we do, on the Board at any time for consideration of occasion, adjust the rent accordingly, if we a transfer. This is going on regularly in our do allocate him a house at all. Basically own estates. Circumstances, of course, have we work on a policy of needs must come changed so much over the past two years first. The only rebate available at the present that the rates and charges for fuel, as you moment is that if a tenant on being allocated all know, are more than treble and the a house, on his rent and income being con- circumstances, for that reason, have altered sidered, finds that he is paying more than but, basically, these are the circumstances a sixth of his income he gets his rent rebate everybody in every estate has to face up to. accordingly, but there is nothing whatever That is why we are not prepared to pick to cover at this present time and there is out this individual estate and give it any no thought of the Board giving rebates in rebates on that fuel consumption in pre- the suggestion put forward in this question. ference to any others.

Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, may 1 fol- Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, might I low that up with another question. Would ask a supplementary? Would your Board be the hon. Chairman then agree with the prepared to point out to authorities in statement in the question that an inordinate future when they are planning their estates financial burden is now falling on the that to provide a centrally-heated electrical tenants who obviously have limited means? hot-air system for pensioners is obviously unwise and also an open-plan house with Mr. P. Radcliffe: Well, I would accept the a fire in it is also unwise because all the point made by the hon. Mr. Speaker. Let heat goes up the stairway? Would you be us look at it from the circumstances that prepared to suggest to them there should arose at the time when the Board built be fireplaces in the houses? • these houses. We were in the situation that we were building small types of accom- ; Mr. Nivioon: That is unwise too. modation and I have said this many times in this hon. Court before, the majority of Mr. P. Radcliffe: Naturally today, Your the houses built in the past were three- I Excellency, the Local Government Board bedroomed houses. We found that they were considered this on all estates. We are under-occupied, we found that we wanted coming back to the point that, because of the elderly people to possibly move from Ithe increase in the other types of fuel, it is those houses to new accommodation. We more appropriate, to include, if possible, therefore gave serious thought as to whether F within a house a solid coal fire. If you are or not we should put solid coal fires in the !coming down also to other circumstances houses, or whether we should put central !where any house today can cost you a heating of some form in to provide a ,minimum of between £6,000 and £7,000 and facility and an amenity for these elderly you arc talking about the economics of it, people, basically. Well the circumstances are if costs as much to build into a house a naturally that you cannot always choose coal fireplace with a flue, as it costs to your tenant for any particular houSe. There • put in some form of central heating. All is nothing to make any of these tenants if these various circumstances are considered, they so desire live in these houses. If they naturally, by the Board when any petition

Rebate for Tenants of L.G.B. "All-Electric" Houses—Question by the Speaker. T762 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

is put forward or whether the Board build industrial units on - the same site was also their own. Certainly the matter mentioned advertised for views on the 21st September, by the hon. member will be considered too. 1973. Both these applications were approved with 25 and 27 conditions respectively, after consideration of views from the Braddan- Commissioners, the Douglas Corporation, INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT the Industrial Advisory Council, the Society;- ON COOIL ROAD—QUESTION for the Preservation of the Manx Country-. side and five members of the general public. BY MRS. QUAYLE. Dealing with part (3) of the question, this particular estate does not consist of an The Governor: Question No. 9. The hon. isolated development in the middle of the member for Castletown, Mrs. Quayle. countryside and a look at the draft develop- ment plan will show that it forms the Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, 1 beg to ask — (1) Was the proposed industrial de- planned extension of an urban area. It velopment on the Cooil Road advertised? enjoys good communications and proximity (2) If not, on what grounds did the Planning to public amenities. It will provide ample employffient, in pleasant surroundings, and Committee consider that the views of the in a conveniently situated place for resi- public on this major project should not be sought? (3) What possible reason could be dents in the Douglas area. The draft :plan, advanced on planning grounds for encroach- as the hon. member correctly states, shows the area in question as being designated for ing on a beautiful stretch of countryside in which this development would obviously be industrial use. The site will not be so close to the main road from Douglas to the airport an appalling eyesore? (4) Although there is as to interfere with the Island's shop-window, an area designated for industrial use in this yet it will be close enough to attract .em- region on the draft development plan, will ployers, because of the excellent -communi- you confirm that until such a definitive plan cations, and will meet a very pressing need • is laid before Tynwald, development on for this type of employment in the principal these lines should not be regarded as agreed urban area of the Island. Why the hon. policy? member should try to deny people the opportunity of working in a well designed The Governor: The Chairman of the and pleasant environment where they spend Local Government Board. a large part of their lives I cannot under- stand. Returning to part (4) of the question, Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in in Tynwald Court on 17th October, 1972, answer to parts (1) and (2) of the hon. member's question, the application sub- the Interim Report of the Select Committee . on Town and Country Planning was re- mitted by Mr. J. F. Finlan for approval in principle to the siting of a light industrial ceived and the recommendations contained estate at Ballavargher Farm, the Cooil, therein were adopted. Inter alia these called Braddan, was advertised for the views of for a re-affirmation • of the present planning interested persons on the 21st July 1972. A policies of the Isle of Man Government. second application was submitted•by the Isle Hon; -members will possibly. recall .that, there of Man Industrial Development Company was an overwhelming vote to support the Limited, for the approval of a large food adoption of that resolution; in fact, there • warehouse unit and five warehouse light were 26 votes in favour and onl3) 4 against.

Industrial Development on Cooil Road—Question by Mrs. Quayle. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T763

I would- add than the draft development may deposit the type of refuse• which. is not plan has been presented to this hon. Court normally collected — to the end that an for information together with a very com- orderly . system of disposal of bulky waste prehensive report and that at all times, material may operate throughout the Island? when this subject has been discussed, Tyn- wald has given its strong support for its The Governor: The Chairman of the proposals to introduce a provisional order Local Government Board. incorporating a development plan for the Isle of Man, work, on which, I will Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I emphasise is progressing with urgency. would rather answer this question off the cuff. Hon. members naturally will-be aware Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, could I that in the Isle of Man we have 26 local just ask for a clarification? That draft authorities. If the Local Government Board development plan has not actually been are expected to take over the duties of all accepted by this Court, am I right? these local authorities I would very much appreciate it indeed if some directive were Mr. P. Radcliffe: I would think you were given to us to do this. We did call a incorrect hon. member, it has been accepted meeting, quite recently, in the Town Hall by the Court, and I told you at the time in Douglas where we invited all the local or referred to the resolution before the authorities in the Isle of Man to attend with Court, when it was supported by 26 votes reference to refuse disposal which naturally . in favour and four against. extended from ordinary household refuse disposal to the disposal of all forms of refuse The Speaker: A supplementary there, was and we agreed that something must be done, not that the report of the Committee? but none of those local authorities was pre- pared to come forward with any suggestion Mr. P. Radcliffe: It was the report of the as to what they were prepared to do. They Committee but it referred to the develop- were all wondering what it was going to ment plan as shown in this hon. Court. cost them. and without doubt this is going to come down to Central Government ex- The Speaker: Ah, you are stretching the penditure and this is why we on the Board, elastic now. and one of my hon. colleagues on the Board brought this matter forward some time ago, are now pressing for a Government rate to be included in our Budgets in the future COLLECTION AND DISPOSAL that will cover the cost of this refuse OF BULKY WASTE MATERIAL= disposal. The Board already have provided, QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER. in the south of the Isle of Man, and have tented from Mr. Cain of Ballahott, the The Governor: Question No. 10. The hon. Ballahott Quarry and this is being used Mr. Speaker. specifically for the purposes mentioned by the hon. Mr. Speaker.. We are now being The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to ridiculed because we are making a: small' ask Will your Board, in consultation with charge for people who go there for the use local authorities designate collection points of it and yet it: is costing us several hundred in each appropriate district where persons pounds per year to try to maintain this

Collection and Disposal. of Bulky Waste Material—Question by the Speaker. T764 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

place in a fit and respectable order. We have the Local Government Board, and I feel we also made attempts to negotiate with the would much prefer to have three or four owner of Oatlands Farm for the quarry definite places where once it is there it is that is there and these are progressing very finished with and has not got to be moved favourably. We do appreciate that the north again. I can assure him that we will take of the Isle of Man is in the unfortunate every step possible. position that the only one big hole in the ground, shall I call it, is at the present Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could moment at the Point of Ayre and this is the I ask a supplementary? Would the Chairman Island Aggregates Gravel Pit. (Interruption.) of the Local Government Board inform me whether his Board, in fact, include in refuse Mr. Bell: What about the Ayres? waste oil, because I have seen correspon- dence at the moment, Mr. Chairman, from Mr. P. Radcliffe: You are full of wind my authority in Peel, the Peel City Autho- today, John. (Laughter.) rity — (laughter) — that they have written to the Local Government Board asking what is Mr. Bell: The ladies from Andreas have Government policy with regard to the dis- all gone home. posal of waste oil from garages. It would appear at the moment that most of this Mr. P. Radcliffe: I did not know there goes down the drains. There is nowhere in were any there actually, I am sorry your the Island where waste oil is properly got bags are not packed at the moment—this rid off. I believe one little area .. site at the Island Aggregates works at the Point of Ayre is a vast hole 15 feet deep Mr. Anderson: The treacle mines. covering an area of about 12 acres, it is not only full of water it is full of all kinds Mr. MacDonald: The treacle mines took of junk and basically it would be much :a lot, but they then discovered that from better filled in. We are going to attempt to the treacle mines it came out under the make a planning application to use that for I ground into the River Neb and other the disposal of certain types of refuse to be !rivers, and they got an answer back covered every day as it is buried there, but saying well it is your job, you get on with I wonder what exactly the reaction will be it. I admit that it may be the local when that advertisement appears in the lauthority's responsibility ... Press from the conservationists, etc., who will be up in arms entirely about the usage Mr. Bell: Where is the treacle niine, Roy? of the area. We will do our utmost to sec that certain areas are provided. I myself am Mr. MacDonald: In Ronague, the not prepared, at this stage, to say to the 'Ronague treacle mines. Your Excellency, Board, well as the hon. Mr. Speaker sug- .it may he, as the Chairman said, it is the gests "provide in each appropriate district" local authority's responsibility, but he knows —now I am assuming, I may be wrong, now what he did not know seven, eight that the hon. Mr. Speaker means one years ago, that certain local authorities just possibly in every parish in the Isle of Man. do not function. In fact, I would say out Naturally if this was provided you know 'of the 26 probably about five function and who is going to have to attend to it, who is the others do not. I think it is high time the going to have to shift it, it is going to be Local Government Board very carefully

Collection and Disposal of Bulky Waste Material—Question by the Speaker. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T765

looked into this one because this is a very much prefer to see us taking the responsi- great pollution danger in the Isle of Man, bility and doing the job ourselves, so that we to all the rivers of the Island, and there is know who is responsible than having to no organised system at the moment for run backwards and forwards to different getting rid of waste oil. authorities and say will you do this this week and so and so next week and they Mr. P. Radcliffe: Very briefly, Your Ex- have to wait a month for them to make a cellency, the matter is under consideration decision. To me, centralise the lot and we by the Board, will get something done.

Mr. MacDonald: Thank you. The Speaker: Your Excellency, do I take it from that answer that the hon. Chairman The Speaker: Your Excellency, a further is prepared to do just that? supplementary, if I may? Would your Board follow the example set by the Forestry, Mr. P. Radcliffe: I am. Mines and Lands Board in this case and go into areas where, in fact, there is no The Speaker: Thank you. particular responsibility? Also would you welcome a declaratory resolution which would make it the responsibility of local authorities to share with you the cost of UNSIGHTLY APPEARANCE OF handling these deposit centres, for the WELL ROAD HILL/STRAND STREET reason, Your Excellency, that in Garff, and AREA—QUESTION BY I do not think we are exceptional in this MISS COWIN. respect, we get any amount of refuse tipped out on the Creg-ny-Baa Road, out from The Governor: Question No. 11. The hon. Douglas for instance? It is an Island prob- member for East Douglas, Miss Cowin. lem and in that sense it is an Island re- Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, I beg to sponsibility. Will you accept a declaratory ask As unfavourable comment has been resolution? made about the seedy appearance of that part of Strand Street near Well Road Hill, Mr. P. Radcliffe: I will look into the will your Board, in the interest of the matter as put by the hon. Mr. Speaker, but acknowledged reputation of Douglas as a I will be quite frank and honest about this, smart and clean holiday resort, discuss with Your Excellency, I do not like joint Douglas Corporation ways and means responsibilities. We have got that exact whereby the streets in that part of the main example at the present moment at the shopping area in Douglas can be improved pulverisation plant. We, as a Government, especially by the timely removal of litter and are asked to provide certain equipment, we refuse which tends to accumulate in the are asked to provide a new tractor that is area of Well Road Hill? now going to cost us in the region of £10,000 to level out the pulverised material. The Governor: The Chairman of the We have got no say whatsoever in who Tourist Board. operates it, who looks after it, how it is maintained. To me this duplication of Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the answer authority is bad management and I would is "yes madam", but I would be obliged if

Unsightly Appearance of Well Road Hill/Strand Street Area—Question by Miss Cowin. T766 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

the hon. member, my hon. colleague, who and cruelty to livestock and the resulting is a member of the Local Government penalties imposed by the courts—(1) is your Board herself, might see that the Local Board entirely satisfied with the present Government Board could perhaps persuade state of Manx law and the way in which it the Corporation of Douglas, not only to is being observed and administered? (2) If tidy up this area but many other areas in not, what action does your Board contem- the town, which I think are a disgrace to plate to strengthen the law having particular the town and if something is not done about regard to the hazards to animal health and it Douglas will not retain its reputation as the relevant provisions of the Dogs Act 1908? a smart and clean holiday resort. The Governor: The Chairman of the Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, may I ask Board of Agriculture. a supplementary? Does the Chairman ask me Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, in reply to to do the impossible or just the improbable? part (I) of the question the prosecutions for alleged offences of cruelty to animals Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I am merely are taken by the Isle of Man Constabulary asking my hon. colleague, in the nicest under section 3 of the Cruelty to Animals possible way, that as she is a member of the Act 1925 and this covers all aspects of Local Government Board, 1 feel that the deliberate ill-treatment of animals and also Local Government Board can exert some cruelty or neglect or omission, The penalty, influence on the Douglas Corporation. upon conviction for an offence of cruelty to animals, is a fine not exceeding £50 or Miits Cowin: Ha, ha. alternatively, or in addition thereto, im- prisonment with or without hard labour for The Speaker: Your Excellency, can I ask a term not exceeding six months. In view of the Chairman in the light of his reply would this penalty at the moment we think this he take up with the Local Government is sufficient if the courts will use it in the Board the question of changing the atmo- proper manner. In reply to part (2) of the sphere of this area from that of being a question, recent prosecutions under section Chinese centre into one of a Manx trading 9 of the Dogs Act 1908 have resulted from area? The non-burial of carcasses thereby pre- Mr. Irving: Yes, sir, if that is possible. senting a health risk. In most cases when these are looked into, anything that is reported, the carcass is in such a bad state that no-one could prove whether it was ill- LAW RE CRUELTY TO LIVESTOCK treatment or cruelty or anything that had —OBSERVATION, ADMINISTRATION happened to it. As far as the penalty is AND REINFORCEMENT— concerned, this is a penalty that has been in QUESTION BY MR. CLUCAS. operation for many, many years and at the moment I do not think it is sufficient—it is The Governor: Question No. 12. The hon. £2 for each offence and each offence means member for Ayre, Mr. Clucas. each animal admittedly and this is some- thing I think that merits revision. Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I beg to ask—In view of recent prosecutions con- Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, I would cerning the causing of unnecessary suffering like to ask the Chairman of the Board of

Law re Cruelty to Livestock—Observation, Administration and Reinforcement—Question by Mr. Clucas. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T767

Agriculture a supplementary, if I may? Is been to ask the dead animal whether or he satisfied that there are enough inspectors not it has suffered? (Laughter.) to carry out the necessary inspections from time to time and is the system of inspection The Governor: I do not think that re- really efficient? quires any answer.

Mr. Crowe: It is very difficult, sir, be- Mr. Crowe: 1 do not think so, sir, no. cause are we going to have inspectors going (Laughter,) around the country all the time looking for cases of ill-treatment or cruelty or dead Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, would the animals ... Chairman of the Board of Agriculture agree, having described some of these persons who Mr. Bell: You have to rely on the public. leave their animals lying around as irrespon- sible, that the very fact that carcasses Mr. Crowe: You have to rely on persons arc lying there rotting, can in fact be reporting and we have to rely on persons, injurious to animal health and later public if they are the owners and they have some- health in the Island and that if the fine is thing die, being reasonable persons to get only £2 per carcass and it is £400 for rid of them and bury them. importing sausages here, surely there is an injustice there somewhere? Mr. Chicas: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary? I first of all would thank Mr. Crowe: Yes, but you see we set the the hon. Chairman of the Board for his fine to meet the offence and if anyone reply but I think it is deficient in one knowingly brings meat into the Island, respect in that would he accept from me which would cause disease to break out in that I have it on good authority from the the Island, which would result in the Isle of Man Constabulary that they do elimination of our stocks in the Island regard the present law as totally inadequate valued at anything up to £10 million, the and deficient in many respects in this burying of one carcass I do not think would particular area. Enforcement is well nigh have the same effect on the animal health impossible and I will gladly give evidence of the isle of Man. in more detail to the hon. Chairman if he would accept the point I make.

Mr. Crowe: If this is factual, sir, the FOOTPATH BETWEEN CORONY Board of Agriculture has never had anyone ESTATE AND DHOON SCHOOL make representations to us that this law, —QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER. as it stands, is inadequate. The Governor: Question No. 13. The hon. Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I would Mr. Speaker. like to ask a supplementary? Is the hon. Chairman not aware that already represen- The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg to tation has been made on this particular ask— Will your Board now give urgent topic by other people from time to time consideration to the provision of a footpath and have found, generally speaking, that the between the Corony Estate and Dhoon attitude of the Board of Agriculture has School bearing in mind— (a) the express

Footpath Between Corony Estate and Dhoon School—Question by the Speaker. T768 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

support of the Road Safety Officer for this BILLS AWAITING ROYAL ASSENT improvement; (b) the statement you made OR HOME OFFICE COMMENTS— to Tynwald on this subject on the 15th QUESTION BY MR. SIMCOCKS. December 1971 that it would receive your Board's sympathetic consideration? The Governor: Question No. 13, for written answer. The hon. member for The Governor: The Chairman of the Rushen, Mr. Simcocks, to ask His Excel- Highway and Transport Board. . lency the Lieutenant-Governor:— Will your Excellency please supply — (1) a list of all Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, there is • Bills currently awaiting Royal Assent and very little I can add to the answer I gave the date when each such Bill was forwarded to Mr. Speaker when he raised this subject for Royal Assent? (2) a list of all Bills in the Tynwald before last except to say currently held by the Home Office pending that at the next meeting of the Highway comments and the date when each such Bill Board consideration will be given to the was forwarded for that purpose? report made by the Road Safety Officer. 1 would like to assure Mr. Speaker, and 1 The answers to the questions are shown know his hon. colleague is also concerned in the following table:— with this matter, that this improvement has not been forgotten by the Highway Board Bills currently awaiting Royal Assent and indeed we have a scheme drawn up, it Forwarded is simply a matter of priorities. for Royal Name of Bill Assent Miss Thornton-Dueobery: May I ask a Usury (Amendment) Bill 15.1.74 supplementary question, Your Excellency, Road Traffic Bill .„ 21.2.74 and it is one to my own disadvantage, I had Isle of Man Loans Bill 21.2.74 better declare my interests and say that a Income Tax (instalment large part of my land runs down the Payments) Bill ... 19.3.74 Corony Hill and hedges involved, but at Adoption Bill ... „. 10.4.74 the same time lives are much more impor- Income Tax Bill ... „. 10.4.74 tant than material things and so I ask this Nurseries and Child-Minders question, if I may? Will the hon. Chairman Regulation Bill ... 10.4.74 take into consideration in any plans that he General Control of the may make for road improvement in this Economy Bill ... 16.4.74 area the Board of Education's scheme for Legal Aid (Isle of Man) extensions to the Dhoon School and that (Amendment) Bill ... 16.4.74 with more houses to be built on the Corony Estate more children may be expected to Bills currently held by Home Office attend the school from there? Would the pending comments — hon. Chairman kindly take that into con- Forwarded sideration? for Name of Bill comments Mi. Kerruish: Your Excellency, I can Governor's Powers (Transfer) Bill 5.12.73 assure the hon. member that we will bear Isle of Man Constitution those factors in mind. (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill ... 27.12.73

Bills Awaiting Royal Assent or Home Office Comments—Question by Mr. Simcocks. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T769

Trustee Investments Bill ... 4.1.74 in the resolution they are split into two Civil Aid Services Board Bill ... 7,1.74 sections of the resolution? Medicines Bill ... 15.1.74 Misuse of Drugs Bill ... 28.1.74 The Governor: There are three Memo- Oil in Manx Navigable Waters rialists. (Amendment) Bill ... 4.2.74 Road Traffic (Miscellaneous Mr. E. D. Kneale (Advocate) appeared. Provisions) Bill ... 8.2.74 Road Traffic (Public Service Mr. E. D. Kneale: Your Excellency, I Vehicles) (Amendment) Bill ... 13.2.74 appear on behalf of the Isle of Man Steam Gambling Laws (Amendment) Bill 6.3.74 Packet Company. I also appear on behalf *Isle of Man Constitution of the Isle of Man Railway Company. I (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill ... 25.3.74 also appear on behalf of the Isle of Man Housing Improvement Bill ... 8.4.74 Road Services Limited. So far as the learned Personal Estate (Prohibition of member is concerned, may it please Your Publication) Bill 8.4.74 Excellency, I do not on behalf of the isle Wild Birds Protection of Man Steam Packet Company consider (Amendment) Bill 11.4.74 that the position of the Isle of Man Road Local Government General Services is the same or should be dealt with. Rate Bill .„ 18.4.74 I feel, Your Excellency, that as far as this Social Security Legislation resolution is concerned the Isle of Man (Application) Bill 20.4.74 Steam Packet Company, who have been in * This Bill is under consideration by the existence for 144 years, should be treated as House of Keys. a separate entity and dealt with as such.

Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, in that case I think, rather than ask the Court's RECOMMENDATIONS OF permission and your permission, sir, under TRANSPORT COMMISSION— Standing Order 149, which 1 intended to do, REFERRED TO STEERING to ask learned counsel to address the Court COMMITTEE. first whilst 1 merely move this resolution formally, I think now that I have heard this The Governor: The next item on the it would be better, in fact, if I went Agenda is No. 5, 1 call upon the hon. straight into my address on the resolution. member for Peel, Mr. MacDonald, to propose the resolution standing in his name. The Governor: Do you wish formally to move your resolution? Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I wonder if, before I commence this if I Mr. MacDonald: i think I should go could ask learned counsel, who is, I believe, straight into my address on the resolution appearing on behalf of the Isle of Man rather than merely formally move it and let Steam Packet Company, whether or not he counsel speak in advance of my address. I is also representing the Isle of Man Road think this would be fairer. Services because on this will depend how this resolution should be handled? Is he The Governer: Has that the agreement of appearing on behalf of both parties because this Court?

Recommendations of Transport Commission—Referred to Steering Committee. T770 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

It was agreed. it perfectly clear from the very beginning that my main reason for tabling this Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I beg resolution today is that I feel that it to move:— is not in the public interest, it is not in the interest of the Isle of Man Steam That Tynwald is of the opinion that the Packet Company, the Isle of Man Road following recommendations contained in the Services Limited, the Isle of Man Railway Report of the Transport Commission dated Company or in fact any of the organisations 31st May 1966 be implemented - mentioned in the Transport Commission (1) That a Board of Tynwald be con- stituted to undertake generally the Report that such an important Commission oversight and control of public trans- Report, which has merely been received by port in and affecting the Isle of Man. Tynwald, should be left sitting in a pigeon- (2) That the appropriate duties and func- hole somewhere, where none of these com- tions now appertaining to the Isle of panies really know where they go and what Man Airports, Harbours, Highway and Transport and Manx Electric Railway the future is and know what Tynwald at Boards be vested in the new Transport any time might decide. This is the main Board. reason behind my bringing this resolution (3) That the Isle of Man Government, forward today, because I believe in Govern- through the new Board, by acquisition ment, that once Government has paid for a of the necessary shareholding, should Commission to sit and investigate a matter participate in the operation of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company of great and primary importance to this Limited, to the extent of a controlling Island, then Tynwald must be asked to make interest. a decision. It is no good merely coming (4) That the Isle of Man Railway, Isle before the Court and say here is the of Man Road Services and Douglas report, let us forget it for what is virtually Corporation omnibus undertaking now eight years. This is unfair to the people should be acquired by the Isle of Man Government. of the Island, to Tynwald- and to the com- panies involved. Your Excellency, I also (5) That a Director General be appointed to the new Board. think I should make it quite clear, since (6) That under the new Board there certain local newspapers have suggested that should be organised departments to this motion is designed to bring about the provide and maintain severally — nationalisation of the Isle of Man Steam (a) Airport facilities and ancillary Packet Company and I would like to deal services and liaison with air trans- with this company first and I hope the port companies and authorities Court today will agree that it is, in fact, concerned with the regulation of air transport. sections (3) and (4) of these recommenda- (b) Dock and harbour installations tions of the Commission that are, in fact, and facilities and the regulation of the crux of the whole resolution. It is how sort and land traffic at the Douglas this Court decides it should act on the Sea Terminal taking over the recommendations with regard to the Isle of general functions of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and the Rail- Man Harbour Board. way, Road Services and Douglas Corporation (c) The whole of the Island's High- ways and Road system, that really matters. I think had the news- (d) Public Road and Rail Services. papers carefully studied the report, and in particular chapter 8 of that report, they Your Excellency, l think I should make would have realised that what is suggested

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is that in exchange for Government financial from England and a look was taken at the participation and in this case I am starting Landing Stage in Liverpool, Government has, with the Steam Packet Company, what they in fact, become involved in something which have suggested is that in exchange for the United Kingdom Government, neither Government financial participation in the Tory or Labour, would ever dream of doing. company, the public should have direct Government has, in fact, become involved representation on the board of directors in providing facilities in another country to of the company. This is what they are which our company, I say "our" because it recommending. is a Manx company, the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company operates. This has resulted A Member: Where is it? in the Manx taxpayer being committed to Mr. MacDonald: It was in chapter 8 the tune of £1,212,000 over 20 years. This where it was mentioned, this is the Steam is the difference in the 10 per cent. interest Packet Company. They are suggesting that, rate at which the Government will on in fact, Government should participate in average be paying for a capital sum of the company and, in exchange for that, £1,250,000 and the 5 per cent. interest rate provide funds. There is nothing new, Your being paid to Government for the loan by Excellency or hon. Court, in this suggestion, the Steam Packet Company, or the average there is nothing new whatsoever since many annual injection of capital from the taxpayer large companies today in Europe have will be in the region of £60,600. In addition Government participation at board-room to this, Your Excellency, this year a rebate level, representing the taxpayers who have of harbour charges total £40,000, which you contributed financially to the company. will see in the pink book today, has been British Petroleum, of course, is one that made in the way of support, now this may immediately springs to mind. There are be tourist support, it may be called any- many others today where Government has, thing, but it is, in fact, support to the in fact, participated in the organisation and tourist trade to the Isle of Man Steam the day-to-day operations of a company. Packet Company. Thus financially, unlike When this idea was recommended by the the United Kingdom Government's policy,• Transport Commission in 1966, apart from both Tory and Labour, whereby the cost of providing the port facilities in the Isle of operating ports or port facilities must be Man, and these have been variously valued met by the users, both capital and revenue — a value we have recently had is around costs in fact, only a fortnight ago we about, and only around about, £40 million received a re-statement of this policy con- in the Isle of Man — the taxpayer has not firming that all ports in the United Kingdom become involved in any other way financially are expected, and I say expected, to show with the Isle of Man Steam Packet Com- 'a return of 9 per cent on all capital invested pany although the Sea Terminal had a capital and they have been told, in fact, to bring cost of £442,000 and will have eventually up to date the valuation of all port cost the Manx taxpayer, based on a 10 per installations throughout the United King- cent. annuity, round about £2,658,000 before dom. Your Excellency, in the Isle of Man it is fully paid for, but since then, either Government does not only provide tax- at the company's request, or because a payers' money towards the capital cost of section of Government has been worried the facilities in the Isle of Man, but also about the situation over the movement of towards the facility of Liverpool, the United Manx traffic from the Isle of Man to and Kingdom Government would not provide,

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and has decided that the Manx taxpayer Kingdom, in fact, we know this because we should meet, or it would appear they have went to see this as well, running down to decided that the Manx taxpayer should the port area the British Government, the meet all the ever-increasing costs of operat- British authorities, it will be the local ing Manx harbours above 50 per cent, thus council now the way England is organised, relieving the users of the burden of meeting are developing the M55 motorway connect- them. Your Excellency, I consider that the ing up to the M6 motorway, which is the United Kingdom Government's policy for main northern trunk route in Britain today harbours is, in fact, correct for their on the west coast, joining up the M6 country. It is up to Tynwald to decide for directly through to Blackpool and from the Isle of Man. Only this past week my Blackpool they are already planning, partly Board, trying to keep up to date, have by stages, the link straight through to Fleet- inspected the progress of the new roll-on, wood. This will enable vehicular traffic to roll-off berth at Fleetwood. This berth is come directly up the M6 straight through costing £800,000 to build, it is progressing and down the new M55 and down to the fairly satisfactorily, it should be ready early Fleetwood dock area. Your Excellency, this next year. On this particular installation, did not occur, unfortunately, in Liverpool none of the cost is being borne by the and in the Liverpool proposal we do then British taxpayer, none of the cost is being find, it is unfortunate, it is nothing to do, borne by the local authority, none of the I do not think with Mersey Docks Company, cost of the actual roll-on, roll-off installation they are already behind the time, or the is being borne by the Fleetwood Dock scheduled time for completion, this is most Company. The entire cost must be borne, unfortunate. It is beyond their control, we and they have agreed to bear this cost, by know what is happening in England and the operating shipping company, in this case especially in the Liverpool area, but we as P. & 0., they have to find the money, Manx taxpayers, and Manx taxpayers in they have agreed to. Not' only this, Your general are committed at the moment to an Excellency, but we also discovered that outside development in this area via our before the Houses of Parliament at the own shipping company. It may be argued, moment there is already through first stage, Your Excellency, that in the Isle of Man committee stage, a proposal that three the tourist trade is so vital that all tax- further roll-on, roll-off berths should be payers should support it, whether they are constructed at Fleetwood. 1 believe the directly involved financially or not. This is Steam Packet Company have looked at the a matter for this Court to decide and to plans and these plans are already before justify to the majority of taxpayers who are Parliament and probably will be approved. not directly in tourism. In addition to this a large 50 acre site is being reclaimed in the Fleetwood port area Mr. Irving: They support the Viking Festival. and this is the only item in the entire modernisation plan which the Dock Corn- Mr. MacDonald: Yes, sir, all right, I do pany itself has to find, but the Dock Company too, you do. The support you give the has also been told that in doing this they Vikirbg Festival — we probably more than must ensure that every inch Of that End collect that in Peel. If we do accept thi can be let out at profit to the Docks Com- then I contend, and I agree with the Com- pany, so we have a very big difference in mission, that such involvement must neces- policy. I believe also that in the United sarily give the taxpayer a right to participate

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..••■•■••

in the control and operation of the com- Nominees of London, with 29,757 shares panies concerned only to the extent- of their in the company. Further down the list are involvement and this is running at approxi- other nominees. In total, nominees at the mately, now this year, £100,000 a year. If moment are holding 152,707 shares, if we could mention this here, members probably take it as a £1 share, in this company. do appreciate that the total share capital of There are only, in fact, around about 10 the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company as per cent. The worrying thing to me is that at the moment, is £1,500,000 thus in 15 most of this has occurred in the last two years the taxpayer will have invested, and I years and in fact the 29,757 shares occurred say invested because this is what Govern- this year, so it looks as if there is interest ment is doing, investing public money in a from outside coming into what we hope, private enterprise, an amount equal to its what I hope and I pray it will remain a total share capital as of today. Manx controlled company. Your Excellency, fortunately the Isle of Man Steam Packet A Member: What about the value of the Company and I do not think anyone has share capital? had any more praise for this company over its long period of history in the Isle of Man Mr. MacDonald: Yes, well I will come to for its operations. fortunately the bulk that, sir, I will come to that — which I of the holdings of this company, 1,587 presume would give any other self-respecting shareholders holding less than £1,000 each, investor around 50 per cent. of seats on the in fact, are 80 per cent. or hold 80 per cent. board of directors or the board of the of the say. This is very fortunate in some company, that is in any progressive capitalist ways, but I worry in case, as has happened society they would expect this. In fact, on a past occasion, people do sell. I hope were any merchant banking house investing Manx people will not sell unless they are such a proportion of capital in any company very clear who they are selling to. It does worry me that this 10 per cent. holding by they would probably be seeking complete nominees somewhere or other could increase control of the company in co-operation with and it becomes dangerous when it gets to such small shareholders that they could buy around about 25 per cent., then it could out. This is a process which today rather become dangerous. I feel that the Manx worries me, because looking at the 14th Government and I believe they would not March return of stockholders in the isle of and could not, as they did not once before, Man Steam Packet Company, I am rather allow this to happen. I feel that a very good worried to discover that nominee companies reason why both Government and the Manx are creeping in and taking up shareholding. shareholder should welcome Government In fact, more so, nominees with a London participation is in the public interest, It is address, 15 Bishopsgate, have now in their in the interest of the tourist trade and hands at the moment, on the 14th March ultimately, in order to ensure that the that was, they had 94,450 shares. This is by company's operations and assets cannot be far the largest shareholder in this Manx affected by nominee purchasers seeking a company. I do not know who they are, quick profit on the sale of assets as against nominee companies are difficult people to a steady and fair return on investments, I find out who they are or what is behind think it is in the public interest that the them. The second largest shareholder in the public now it is, in fact, investing or sup- Isle of Man Steam Packet Company is West porting either the tourist industry and the

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company, the public should have a say and Mr. Bell: Is not this company flourishing have, on the board of directors, Government now? nominees, if we are having nominees, to ensure that Government is fully aware all Mr. MacDonald: It is flourishing now this the time of what is operating, how it is company, sir. Do not let anyone believe that operating and whether in fact it requires this company is a poor company. There is the support of Government right from the one thing I have forgotten to say, Your very beginning. Your Excellency, this is why Excellency, that in fact when you look at 1 believe, like the very highly qualified the £1.5 million share capital, I would say, Transport Commission in 1966, that in the looking at it from outside, I would be company's interest, the national interest and frightened if someone would not consider the large number of very small share- that this was worth £4.5 million. This is the holders, and there are as I have said 1,587 danger and this is what we have got to look of them with holdings of less than £1,000, at. This could be a danger. Someone said £6 million, I do not think so, but this is the as I have said they represent 80 per cent. of danger and this is why I think for Govern- the stockholders, that the Government ment participation there should be repre- should hesitate no longer to seek, and I sentation. That is all, Your Excellency, I would stress this, to seek by negotiation think that I am suggesting today in this with these shareholders the bulk of whom resolution. Tied in with this, of course, will I believe are Manx, the Government should be the rest of the resolution based on the seek, by negotiation with these shareholders, recommendations of the Commission. If I to achieve what was recommended as long could leave the Steam Packet Company, as eight years ago and until today has not unless you would like to deal with even been discussed in Tynwald, Govern- them separately, Your Excellency, learned ment participation in what I believe Attorney? to be an operation which is the Island's life-line. I am not here today proposing The Governor: I think you could go on. nationalisation or any such thing, but what I am saying is this that so long as this MI. MacDonald: I will go straight on. If Government, on behalf of the Manx people, I could leave now the sea and get on to sees fit to assist financially, with taxes from dry land. The Transport Commission in the people, to assist financially a company, chapter 7 of their report, they stated, and it be it the Steam Packet and, in fact, as I is rather interesting this little piece — "it was saying only recently to the Chairman will be interesting to see how the recently of the Executive Council perhaps may be appointed Road Traffic Commissioners", other companies, I think Government now remember in 1966 the Road Traffic should where necessary, negotiate to ensure Commissioners had not been long in action throughout the Island —"it will be interest- that the public interest is represented in the ing to see how the recently appointed Road board room of these companies. Should a Traffic Commissioners establish a balance time come when Government funds are no between the 'bus operators and the indepen- longer necessary and these companies are . deneboach owners". This 'to me is a most fully_ flourishing on their own feet and safe, interesting statement in the Commission's then I feel perhaps it may be necessary to report. Since 1966, Your Excellency, it has remove Government control of companies. in fact been most interesting to see that one

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by one the independent coach owners have especially his remarks that the stage service been swallowed up by Tours (Isle of Man) transport and coach operations must be Limited, which, despite statements to the treated as one, although I do not see any contrary I have had from some quarters, is of his company's stage 'buses being offered in fact associated with Isle of Man Road the very lucrative trade now being collected Services. in fact, if one looks at the bill- by his coach section. 1 would like to know head of Tours (Isle of Man) Limited you will if the latter's profits are considered, or were see "incorporating Corkills, Hamills, Isle of considered, when the 50 per cent. Govern- Man Road Services coach section", so in fact ment grant for new stage 'buses was being these two companies have an association sought, as they would have to be under the quite clearly, they say so themselves. This United Kingdom Act. In the United King- move to monopoly in coach services opera- dom they would have to be declared. Profits tions — (interruptions) — the most lucrative on one associated company have to be of all road operations in the Isle of Man, declared if you are applying for assistance has now reached the stage where there are for stage services. I would like to know if only 11 coaches left being operated by five this was considered. When the fuel rebate tiny companies. There are only 11 coaches was being considered, which cost the Manx operated by five small operators on the road. taxpayer £76,080 over the period 1969/1973, Tours (Isle of Man) Limited which is was this also considered in relation to coach associated, as I have said, with Isle of Man operations at the same time as stage opera- Road Services has, in fact, almost done to tions? If the taxpayers are continuing to the group of small operators once in exis- meet 50 per cent. of the cost of each new tence exactly what Mr. William Lambden, bus bought for stage services, does this not the general manager of Isle of Man Road also mean that ultimately a very high part Services, complained about in 1966. On page of the capital assets of this company will 97 of the report, the very thing which the have been paid for by the taxpayer? As we general manager of the Road Services com- all know, a certain depot owned by the plained about then, this Tours (Isle of Man) company has now been let to another com- Limited is doing now. What he said then pany, whilst public land —I have been told was. "They are cleaning up the traffic which this, 1 have seen this — whilst public land is is ours by right as the provider of the stage being used for depot parking. I would agree services". This is the statement he made that should the company receive no public then. This very company that his company assistance whatsoever and accept the right are involved with have bought the lot and is to operate coach tours over such a monopoly doing this very thing to the stage service in conjunction with its loss leaders, you coaches also operated by his company. Does know, the loss leaders being the stage Mr. Lambden now complain when Tours operations, then free enterprise should pro- (Isle of Man) Limited have the virtual mono- gress unhindered. If Tynwald thinks a poly of airport bus services in competition monopoly is in the public interest, but with the publicly assisted red 'buses? Does surely then the Douglas Corporation should he now object to coaches being able to run likewise be permitted to enter the coach direct to steamers, as he did then at lower tour business in order to relieve its sorely charter rates than the red 'bus company pressed ratepayers of the cost of also operates? I agree with most of what Mr. operating stage services. What is good for Lambden said; in fact I agree with it one should be good for the other. Is this almost entirely in his statement—inrig-611- what Tynwald wants? Do Tynwald agree to

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this, or are we to say we agree that free working Commission. They produced what enterprise must flourish; but not if it is a probably has been one of the best reports, local authority which is showing enterprise. I feel, for many years, Some of the things Let us face it, the Douglas Corporation in they recommended have since occurred. Un- the past have shown a lot of enterprise ... fortunately, Tynwald in its wisdom has gone other ways in certain sections of the report. Mr. Anderson: A long time ago! It has ignored it completely and gone other ways. 1 believe today and 1 hope Tynwald Mr. MacDonald: No, they still do, sir. would agree with this— that 1. cannot see, They have continued to operate a very, very but members have said to me, members have lucrative horse tram service. But I believe said it is rather a lot to ask that Tynwald they were once told if there is to be any today should be asked to go straight into sort of merger you have got to hand it this. We have had the report for eight years over. This is a decision, I think, that the to study it and look at it. I have left it for Island's biggest group of taxpayers, rate- a month since I first suggested it should payers and voters would like to sec members be brought forward for members to look of Tynwald make today. I think they would at and think about. But even so, I am quite like to see Tynwald decide does it, in fact, prepared today, if a member feels that this agree with what was said in the Transport thould be the subject of further discussion Commission Report, or not, so they know to see how this is going to be achieved, where they go. I think most members in perhaps by a Ways and Means Committee this House are in full agreement with free of some sort, I would be quite prepared to competition, but it must be equal and free. accept that. I do feel, and members of I believe that should a monopoly situation Tynwald thought, that it is only fair to the uncontrolled by Tynwald develop, then I do public, the companies concerned and our- not think this is in the public interest, nor selves, that in fact we should make a do I think that Tynwald would agree with decision. When the decision is made the the Commission that all road services and Manx public will know how Tynwald feels, rail services such as still exist, should not but 1 think that this should be done and be taken under public ownership. I believe should be done today. this can only be done if coach tour opera- tions — in other words, what is recom- Mr. Bell: Are there any profit figures? mended here, the taking over by negotiation of course, of all these various empires that Mr. MacDonald: Profit figures? No sir. exist in the Island in the transport field. I 1 have not gone into that because I thought believe this can only be done if, in fact, the it would merely confuse the issue. With coach tour sections of these operations are regard to transport services, I have noticed brought in under the same umbrella. This on the Agenda today there is another is where, undoubtedly, the money lies. This motion down by the Chairman of the is where, in the Island, the bulk of the Tourist Board asking for £75,000. money is earned. It always has been, and it probably always will be. I believe myself Mr. Ening: No, there is not, sir. It is not that the majority of members of this House on the Agenda yet. today realise exactly what the Transport Commission meant. They were a very, very Mr. MacDonald: Oh well, I have read it. highly skilled, knowledgeable and hard- it is circulated. It is not stamped secret,

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confidential, or anything else. It was £75,000 directors of the Steam Packet Company or anyway. He is going to ask for it to be put the members of Tynwald would agree with on the Agenda—can I put it that way. This me here, 1 think, that we have too many again is to assist not just the Steam Packet Boards, too many people are pinned down Company, but the season end or beginning to too many things. Many members of this extension. This is a very commendable sort Court today — and I find this—you know, of thing, this is a commendable thing to do. when you are on four different Boards and Once again this is public money. Once again Committees and Commissions, plus other 1 feet that if this money is being used, well things that sit in the evenings, we find we then, then the public should have some say arc pretty pushed. I do believe, with the in the operations of the company receiving Transport Commission—in fact it was rather this. There is one other thing that I would interesting the other day, and the Chairman like to mention before I finish on this. That of the Civil Service Commission will agree is, we are constantly told that and only re- with me here, it is rather interesting that cently, I think it was at the last Tynwald other people, not looking at this from this we were told, or maybe in the House of point of view, think the same way; they Keys, that per mile fare routes, our fares to think the same way as we do, as 1 do today, our Island are virtually the same as any- and as the Transport Commission felt, that where else. Well now, a member of the there are certain fields of Government Court today, this morning, gave me a sample activity which by merger could result in of a fare —it may be a loss leader, I do not savings. In fact, I believe at a rough guess know. He had got this sent to him or he — and one of my own engineers has looked had asked for it. Here I_ see for a 1i-hour at this and be feels at a rough guess I sea journey, round about 42 miles I think suppose you could say — we could probably the journey is, from Cairn Ryan to Larne, save technically in technical services some- an adult passenger return fare this year, thing in the region of nearly 10 per cent. £1.90. This is l hours. The fare is £1.90 to 15 per cent. of our costings. This would return, a single fare £1.10. This is virtually be very, very useful to the Manx Govern- half the distance, half the time of our sea ment at the moment. I know the Chairman journey, less possibly, a little bit less. It is of Finance Board is always looking for more than that. This is what we are up savings. Perhaps we could do this by merger. against, this is what we are facing, and this Perhaps our time spent could be saved. I is why I believe the Steam Packet Company believe that in fact by the division, as this directors themselves and shareholders prob- Commission recommended, of all transport ably would agree with me, that anything services into one Board, and then the Board Government can do to assist in the operation divided down into departments with one of this company, and in fact if they have member of Tynwald still supervising each to be represented on the Board, then I feel department, but then each of those members this also would help the company. With coming on to the general Board controlling regard to all the other sections of the the lot, then I think we would possibly be resolution, these would only fall into line getting somewhere. I think today we have I feel should Tynwald today decide that we got to, as an Island people, weigh up sea, go ahead and carefully look into this prob- air and road together. We can no longer lem of the report 1 feel that there is a lot afford to go on looking at them all in to be said for amalgamation of Boards of isolation. Before I finish I see there has Tynwald. I know, in fact, some of the been an amendment circulated, and I would

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say and I think I would be prepared to say period of 60 years from the date of borrow- now, that I would be quite prepared to ing, for the purposes aforesaid. Also the accept this amendment. I beg to move. Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and Bur- gesses of the Borough of Douglas for ap- The Governor: I think it might be con- proval to the sale of a plot of land, part of venient now to adjourn for tea. the Anagh Coar Estate, containing 1,740 square yards and delineated and edged in Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, • red on the plan annexed to the Petition, to could I just say that I believe I was a Heron and Brearlcy Limited for the sum of member of this Committee and I now £20,000 for the erection thereon of a Public withdraw from any recommendation that I • House. I beg to move that the Prayers of the agreed to as regards the Isle of Man Steam foregoing Petitions be and the same are hereby granted. As hon. members have got a Packet Company. long Agenda before them for this sitting of Tynwald, I hope they have had their copies The Court adjourned for tea. of the Petitions, and I hope they will be prepared to have confidence in the Local Government Board to accept them. If you want to ask any questions I will be happy PETITION OF ONCHAN to answer them. COMMISSIONERS—PURCHASE OF PROPERTIES IN MAIN ROAD; Members: Agreed. AND PETITION OF DOUGLAS CORPORATION—SALE OF LAND TO The Governor: Are you proposing both? HERON AND BREARLEY LTD. FOR ERECTION OF PUBLIC HOUSE Mr. P. Radcliffe: Both, Your Excellency. —APPROVED. They arc both straightforward petitions. I move both of them.

The Governor: Petitions. That is items 22 Mr. Kermeen: Your Excellency, there is and 23 on the Agenda. I call on the Chair- one clarification which 1 would like to have, man of the Local Government Board. and that is in paragraph 4 of the Douglas Corporation one. "The Corporation may, Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in re- from time to time, with the consent of the spect of the Petition of the Onchan Village Tynwald Court, sell in such manner and to Commissioners for approval to the pur- such persons as the Corporation may think chase of four adjacent properties abutting fit, any part or parts of the said estate of upon Main Road in the Village District of Pulrose and any buildings thereon which Onchan, namely Nos. 49, 51, 53 and 55 they do not require for the purposes of the Main Road, and also the workshop and said Local Government Acts" etc. I take it, premises in Elm Tree Road, all required to sir, that this land is not required for houses? enable Main Road to be widened between Avondale Road and Church Avenue; and Mr. P. Radcliffe: In reply to the hon. for authority to borrow a sum not exceeding member, Your Excellency, this of course is £33,500, at a maximum rate of interest not taken from section 5 of subsection (a) of exceeding the rate of lawful interest from the Douglas Corporation Estate Act of 1915, time to time obtaining, repayable within a and we are only quoting this as a reason

Petition of Onchan Commissioners—Purchase of Properties in Main Road; and Petition of Douglas Corporation—Sale of Land to Heron and Brcarley Ltd. for Erection of Public House—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T779

why the Douglas Corporation have every pany is concerned. This is a company that right to come forward with this Petition. has been in existence for a period of 144 Naturally, all the circumstances of the case years, and which celebrated its centenary in were considered by the Board, and Douglas the year 1930. Throughout the whole of that Corporation will be extending their Anagh period of time it has provided and is still Coar Estate considerably, and feel, that providing an excellent service to and from when the estate is completed it is necessary this Island. This company feels that this for the provision of the amenity provided in resolution is an attempt to take over the this Petition. company itself. It is by a back-door method of getting into a controlling interest to the The Governor: Is it agreed? detriment of the shareholders of this com- pany, who have over the years — many It was agreed. families in this Island have been share- holders of this company, have been em- ployees of this company, have died in the service of this employer in two world wars, TRANSPORT COMMISSION and here you have a resolution put forward RECOMMENDATIONS—DEBATE by the Chairman of the Isle of Man Har- bour Board whose observations, really, were CONTINUED. a dialogue on the duties of the Isle of Man Harbour Board as to what they were going Reverting now to item 5 The Governor: to do, what they would have to do. Then we on the Agenda. The motion has now been get, even although we have our indepen- moved by the hon. member for Peel. We dence in this Island — it has been mentioned need a seconder. this morning, this company is very proud of its record. In 1972 the mover of this Mr. Kneale: I beg to second, sir, to allow resolution in this hon. Court made the the debate on •the matter, but reserve my following observations, and I will read the remarks. report of the Tynwald Court of the 15th February 1972. "The Harbour Board will be The Governor: I rule that the Memo- the last to say that the Steam Packet Com- rialists are entitled to present their Memorial pany are not providing an excellent service subject to the concurrence of the Court. Is as a small company line to and from the that agreed? Isle of Man; they are a very efficient little company. We know they are the second oldest operating company in the world It was agreed. today, and being the second oldest operating company in the world, we are quite con- The Governor: Mr. Kneale. vinced that they fully appreciate that harbour Mr. E. D. Kneale: Your Excellency, may dues were due for an increase". This is I thank Your Excellency for permitting me the company which the mover of this to appear on behalf of the Isle of Man resolution wishes the Government to take Steam Packet Company as well as on behalf participation in. I have never heard it sug- of the Isle of Man Road Services Limited. gested that where a company is operated would like to first deal with the position so in an efficient manner, that that is a ground far as the Isle of Man Steam Packet Corn- for the Government interfering in the

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T780 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

management, and so far as this company is participate to the extent of a controlling concerned, they feel that it would not be a interest in the Isle of Man Steam Packet proper course for this Court to adopt. Company, Limited, and a financial implica- Reference was made this afternoon with tion of such participation". That is what regard to Liverpool. The mover of the the mover of this resolution is putting resolution gave the impression that the Isle forward today. But if you refer to page 14 of Man Government were providing all this of that report you will observe in paragraph money for Liverpool. The facts are these. 33 as follows: "The third and subsequent The Isle of Man Steam Packet Company steps all depend upon Government deciding had to enter into an agreement with the to acquire an interest. They would be Treasurer of the Isle of Man under which respectively (a) whether it wants to have they pay interest, and on which they repay a controlling or a minority interest: (b) the capital amount in connection with Liver- whether it intends acquiring a controlling pool. So there is no question of the Isle or minority interest by compulsory purchase of Man Government. We have to repay it. or otherwise". There is no mention of that Also, in the United Kingdom and in Eire, in here. "(c) whether it is content to acquire and maybe, as the mover has mentioned, in a proportion of the existing share capital, Europe where there is a new building or whether it thinks it is better to have a programme the authorities concerned give controlling or minority interest in a larger a 20 per cent. grant. After the introduction share capital; (d) what price is it prepared of the Commission's Report of 1966, and to pay to obtain the degree of interest it subsequent thereto, this company applied to wants; (e) what Government policy is going the Isle of Man Government for 20 per cent, to be when a measure of interest has been grant, and certain figures, facts, etc., were obtained. 34. These are matters of policy supplied to Your Excellency's Executive for Tynwald to decide. Once these decisions Council, and they did not grant to this are taken in principle by Government, and company the 20 per cent. grant which they dependent on the outcome, the directors of would have if they had been in the United the company should then be approached on Kingdom. The reason why they did not any of the proposals for the acquisition of which was put forward was that here was a a Government interest in the company". company, an efficient company, which could That report was received by this hon. Court run its own affairs without any Government in 1969, and that is today's present position. interference whatsoever, and was providing It is interesting, I feel sure Your Excellency an excellent service. The mover has men- would like to know, that since the 1966 tioned that this report was 1966. Today it Transport Commission's Report, that this is 1974. But the mover appears to have company were responsible without any cost forgotten that in 1969 there was a further to the Isle of Man Government so far as report on that Transport Commission. In capital was concerned, for the rebuilding of that report I would refer to page 14 thereof; berthage at Llandudno. There was a liability it is under the heading "Isle of Man Steam there of £50,000, and it is quite true to say Packet Company Limited". The first para- that the Isle of Man Government do give graph, I should correctly say, would be on some assistance with regard to the overdraft page 9. It says .. This was a Committee of rate, the Steam Packet paying the first 4 per Tynwald. "Our second term of reference is cent. But the fact was this, that the Steam as follows: To investigate the machinery Packet initiative has brought to this Island whereby the isle of Man Government might further visitors from Llandudno. This also

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T781

happened so far as Fleetwood was con- been in the forefront and they have come cerned; they again brought services from forward to Government first before they Fleetwood. Last year there was, I under- have taken any action. It is vital to the stand, about 30,000 people who came from Isle of Man Steam Packet Company that that area. This company has spent or are they should have a co-operation with the in the process of spending, or committed to Isle of Man Government, but that does not spend, over £6,500,000 on new vessels, and mean to say that after 140 years of running that is not a sum which the directors have their own concern, that Government should foolishly embarked upon. It is to bring their now step in and say, look here, we want fleet up to a high standard, and I feel sure to put so-and-so as a nominee on your board that this Court will agree with me when we of directors, a board of directors who are say that so far as the Isle of Man Steam most efficient people. When you get inter- Packet Company arc concerned, that they ference of that sort then you do not know are a company with vessels that are a what is going to happen. If it should be credit to this Island. The company this year that the isle of Man Government were to at its annual general meeting gave the news obtain a controlling interest in this company, out to the shareholders that they were what then would be the position of the placing an order for another car-ferry minority shareholders of this company? The which would be delivered in 1975. Does that hardcore of Manx men and Manx women show that this company is not aware of who have held on to their shares and will what the needs of the Island are? This always hold on to their shares. The Steam company is fully aware and can carry out its Packet itself, its employees; it is well operations without any question of the known that employees of the Steam Packet Government interfering with its affairs. I love the company, and I am not using that feel sure that this hon. Court has Commit- word in a facetious manner, but they do, tees, has Boards of Tynwald at the moment they will do anything for loyalty, and I who arc looking after their respective duties know it better than anyone else, having had in a most efficient manner, and so far as my own father and my two brothers in this the Steam Packet are concerned, they wish company. Is that sort of loyalty going to to be left alone. The mover of the resolution be rewarded by someone being put on their appears to give the impression, so-and-so board; in other words, giving the general have got a percentage of shares in this public the impression that their board is not company, so-and-so has got. For the infor- efficient, in other words? That when their mation of the mover of the resolution, the board decide that they want to get a vessel Isle of Man Government were informed of from so-and-so that they must go and ask that position. the Government, can we go and get so-and- so, can we get this, can we get a new Mr. MacDonald: I did not know that. lifebelt, can we get it? That is what it Mr. E. D. Kneale: They were informed amounts to. and I would submit that this of that position. The Isle of Man Govern- should not be allowed. There has been ment have been informed of every step circulated an amendment by the hon. Mr. taken by this company. This company has Speaker, but I do feel that this is a matter Fully co-operated with the Isle of Man which has been in being since 1966, that Government and the Tourist Board, and in • it should be resolved now; in other words a any movement so far as affecting visitors decision should be made. The mover of this coming to or From this Island, they have resolution has not indicated in his resolution

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. 1782 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

any method of how he intends that the Isle bring into account all the appropriate of Man Government should obtain some amount of profit that you are allowed on interest. He has not put forward any sug- your actual working undertakings. Mr. gestions. Is this Court going to just forget Bolton knows this better than anyone else the existence — as the mover of the reso- so far as this company is concerned, as he lution did — the existence of the report of was concerned with the arrangement three the Transport Commission of Tynwald 19692 years ago concerning the replacement of 1 would submit not. 1 would also like to 'buses, etc. The figures before the Road point out that this company, pre-war, were Traffic Tribunal are produced by chartered also concerned with the operating, along accountants; they are checked carefully, and with the railway air services, of a joint air the revision of fares would not be granted service operation from England until that by that important body unless they were service became nationalised. So there again, justified. Prior to the 1st April 1973, we all the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company was know that it was the wish that there should on the ball. Hovercraft — they formed a be an amalgamation between the Isle of company for the purpose of looking into Man Road Services and the Douglas Cor- that position. So here you have a dynamic poration. In 1973 Tynwald were informed company with directors and shareholders that no such amalgamation could take place who realise the needs of the [stand, and because the Douglas Corporation had pulled for Your Excellency's Court to pass this out. It was not the Isle of Man Road resolution in either its amended form Services; the Isle of Man Road Services had or its ordinary form would result, I feel indicated, and if Your Excellency will refer sure, in this company's stockholders to the debates of Tynwald at that time, one being prejudicially affected. I therefore will observe the position, because subse- would suggest that this resolution be not quently certain benefits were given to the passed. So far as the isle of Man Road Isle of Man Road Services. Prior to the Services is concerned, the mover of the 1st April 1973, this company were granted resolution did not in his remarks make any a rebate of £22,669 in connection with fuel reference to the Isle of Man Railway tax; that helped towards keeping down the Company. No doubt, the reason why he did fares of this company. During the financial not was because matters so far as that year commencing the 1st April 1973 to date portion of the Transport Commission has it did not apply, there was no such rebate. gone overboard because, as you know, the So in consequence of which this company, Government are acquiring a certain portion like any commercial company, and also the of our land. So we then come back to the Government, would need reasons to go to question of the Road Services itself. So far the Road Traffic Commissioners to have as any Government assistance is concerned, fares upgraded. This company is providing, the Road Services have never made use of as the members of this Court will be well any of their tour properties for such a aware, a very well deserved service towards purpose. In the calculating of fares you have the rural areas of this Island. Lots of the to go to the Road Traffic Commissioners, routes of this company are not run at a you are subject—you may laugh—the Road profit, very few are, as a result of which Traffic Commissioners are a body constituted this company is itself subsidising its 'bus by Tynwald, and a very important body. operations. But for investments held by this You have to produce before that Board company the position would be worse, but details of how you make your fares up, and they have been able to invest and as a

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T783

result that does help in some measure to difference between the costs, after allowing keep down the fares. Of course, there is for vehicle repayment and periodic costs, another difficulty when one is running a and rendering it too small to affect an agreed road transport system, and that is the fact return on the capital actually employed in that in this day and age there are so many operating the present 'bus network. As I have motor cars on the road, as a result of indicated, Your Excellency, this company which, whereas in the old days one used did not in actual fact draw any monies at to see so many people on 'buses, today we all from the Government in the 1973 to sec hardly anybody on the' buses. But 1974 financial year. 1 would also like to clear nevertheless this company provides a service up misapprehension so far as the mover of and 1 would submit with all within my this resolution is concerned. I did observe power that it is a service of which there that reference was made when the Com- can be no complaint. There have been com- panies Bill was being passed that this com- plaints about fares, but with the spiral of pany had shares in the Isle of Man Railway costs today one unfortunately cannot keep Company. That is totally incorrect. This that down; if this company could, they company does not hold any shares in the would. They have always endeavoured to Isle of Man Railway Company. This com- keep their fares as low as possible, because pany is a wholly owned subsidiary and it is if you do not keep your fares as low as an entirely different capacity as the learned possible, you are going to lose customers. Attorney-General will no doubt inform Your I am informed that so far as services in Excellency. I therefore submit with all the England are concerned, that local authorities power I can, Your Excellency, that so far as there do give help to the' bus operators. the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company are Today we have not got the Douglas concerned and the Isle of Man Road Ser- Corporation with us. Of course, they are vices Company are concerned and the Isle subsidised by the Douglas ratepayers. In of Man Railway are concerned, these com- England the position is that a 'bus operator panies should be left alone and therefore I would receive a complete refund of Fuel confidently ask that the Court will do so. tax for stage services, half the cost of new vehicles which arc used for 50 per cent, or Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, could more on ordinary 'bus work each year, the I ask learned counsel one question? grant being limited to a five-year liability to repay on any sales, grants from county The Governor: Yes. councils for rural services, using a formula Mr. MacDonald: He did not quite clear that covers the difference between agreed the question that 1 did put during my costs including vehicle replacement at address and that is I would like to know, current prices and revenue, Government in fact, are the profits of Tours (Isle of local authority grants towards capital pro- Man) Limited which has as an associate the jects where the quality of service to the Isle of Man Road Services coach section, public is improved, so-called infra structure are the profits of Tours (Isle of Man) grants. So far as this company are concerned Limited declared for purposes of the 50 per they obtain half the cost of new or second- cent. contribution to the red bus service hand vehicles used only for approved company as they are in England? scheduled services with a liability to repay if sold within 10 years of arrival in the Mr. E. D. Kneale: So far as that expres- Island, and making up of receipts if the sion is concerned the Isle of Man Road

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T784 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

Services do not run a coach company at all. Tours (Isle of Man) Limited. And in that It is run by Tours (Isle of Man) Limited. connection you mentioned about a mono- They happen to be shareholders in that poly, let us not have any argument about it, company. these other companies wanted to buy in. There is not a question of a monopoly at Mr. MacDonald: Could I ask a further all. Tours (Isle of Man) Limited run a very question, Your Excellency, of the learned good package tour to the Isle of Man. They counsel? On the letter heading of the Tours are doing a very good job of work. (Isle of Man) Limited it specifically says in- corporating, they list two private companies Mr. MacDonald: No-one is denying it that they have incorporated, Hamills and Corkills Limited. Mr. E. D. Kneale: Well you are, you are Mr. E. D. Kneale: Ycs, that is right. saying a monopoly.

Mr. MacDonald: And they go on to say Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, per- also, Isle of Man Road Services coach haps I could get the answer that I am section, so in fact are you now saying, seeking from the Chairman of the Finance learned counsel, that Isle of Man Road Board later on. Services coach section has nothing to do with Isle of Man Road Services? Mr. E. D. Kneale: Any money that we have received, Your Excellency, so far as Mr. E. D. Kneale: Yes. the Isle of Man Government are concerned has been solely with reference to their first Mr. MacDonald: They have nothing to bus service and nothing whateVer to do even do with it when they were running the tours that side. We have always had to separate it and to be Mr. E. D. Kneale: Well I mean they have only fair you should have to separate it, got to do with it to the extent that they Your Excellency, and no better I mean, all arc shareholders in Tours (Isle of Man) the details, plenty of information has been Limited. given to the Isle of Man Government or the Government would not have given to Mr. MacDonald: Yes, but you are still the Road Services the assistance which they not answering my question. I am asking a indicated at the previous Tynwald. question.

Mr. E. D. Kneale: I am answering your Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, it is not question, I answered your question to this my intention to support either the motion extent that I indicated that when the com- or the amendment, because 1 am firmly of pany goes to the Road Traffic Commissioners the opinion that private enterprise does the they have to supply to them all the detail job much more satisfactorily than what with regard to their coach operations and Government do. Over the years the ex- they are allowed, as the learned member, perience I have had has convinced me that Mr. Bolton, will inform you, they will allow when Government takes over something a certain percentage of return on capital. people employed take a different attitude, In other words, what you arc suggesting is they feel that it is no longer necessary to that we should also feed into the 'bus service show a profit. You can sec it in any depart- also any profits which might be declared by ment you look at. It is a completely different

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T785

■ 1.•••■■. outlook and I do not think that any con- cations with the United Kingdom, what tribution we would make towards manage- steps can we take to protect that from ment would go to make that management being taken over by financial concerns who more efficient than it is at the present are interested only with what they can make time. 1 am convinced that actually the out of it? We know that if this company people that certainly 1 represent on the falls into the hands of the financiers the whole are not socialists in their outlook, assets can be sold at very considerable profits they believe in an estate where private indeed. Now no-one is attempting to attack enterprise is allowed to carry on its business the present management. What I would wish and I believe that I would fail in my repre- to do is find some way of protecting them sentation of them here today if I were to and confirming them in office — (hear, hear) support either the motion or the amendment — and I think therefore we should look at to it, 1 intend, therefore, Your Excellency, this exercise from that point of view, to vote against. would hope therefore that when an amend- ment is moved for the matter to be con- Mr. Simcocks: Thank you, Your Excel- sidered that this will open up sufficient room lency, I think it should be made clear at For consideration to be taken not necessarily this point that many people who are appre- of take-over of shares and control by this hensive concerning the Steam Packet Com- Government, but of devising some means pany's operations are certainly not thereby whereby the company can be protected from infering any criticism whatever against the a take-over. On the question of the bus company or its directors. It is well re- company, sir, I think we should all remem- cognised, sir, that the Steam Packet Com- ber that the Isle of Man Road Services has pany have, over many years, provided an a large amount of capital invested in run- invaluable service to this Island, but we ning stage coaches. It also, of course, has must remember that any public limited some shares in Tours (Isle of Man) Limited, company is to some extent open to attack but it is a private company, it is free to from financial manipulation. The facts given use its capital as it wishes and it seems to to us by the hon. and gallant member for me that at the moment the Road Services Peel of large block holdings in this company Company is almost doing the Island a by nominee companies seems to me, there- favour by running stage coaches. No-one fore, to sound a word of warning. Many of could suggest for a moment that the amount us can remember the activities of a character of capital they have got invested in that called Jay. This gentleman, sir, came to the venture could not be earning each and every Isle of Man perhaps some 28 years ago on shareholder very considerably more money a take-over exercise. Now you have got you if it was engaged in some other way. So see, Your Excellency, here a prime victim, do not let us think that we can say to them, a plum ready to drop into the hand. You we require you to run a bus service, but have got an issued share capital of f.1-1 we also require you to bring in all your million and assets worth three times, four other profitable lines before we decide what times the amount of the issued share capital. we are going to give you to persuade you Sir, what we should I think concern our- to do it. I think we must face the fact on selves with, so far as the Steam Packet that issue, sir, but my prime concern is that Company is concerned, is what steps can some opportunity should be given for this this Court take to protect the Steam Packet whole question of the Steam Packet Com- Company and indeed the Island's communi- pany to be given careful private considera-

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T786 . TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

tion as to what could be done. It is no good he so desirable now. Even then no effort our saying we are going to buy shares in was made by Tynwald or by the Commission the Steam Packet Company or they will to do more than receive the report. If the double in value by tomorrow morning. What proposals are ever to be implemented at all we must do, I think, is find some way of in my view it should be step by step and by getting the whole matter discussed in pri- perhaps putting the harbours under the vate, not as an attack on the Steam Packet Airports Board or the Highway Board as a Company, but in an attempt to protect it first step in the process which perhaps later so that it can continue to render the service could take over the Manx Electric Railway to the Island that it has done for so long. and when that has been fully digested and evacuated maybe the Road Services. They Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I want to could provide the next meal. The word say right away, sir, that the reasons that monopoly is a grand word, it is really very, the hon. member stated for raising this very useful in these kind of circumstances. matter today are indeed very, very strange. it is almost as good as the word corruption. Surely the hon. member understands what is The hon. member says "Douglas voters meant when a report is merely received. If want to know what Tynwald thinks of the at any time recommendations in a report so 1966 report". Here again, absolute rubbish. received appear to be worthy of implementa- Ninety-Rye per cent. of those voters in tion or desirable they may be used as argu- Douglas do not know that the report even ments in favour of a resolution to put them exists, and to come forward with a story into operation. Certainly no such resolution of this sort as I say is quite ridiculous. Let can be considered as a threat hanging over us get our hands on someone else's money anyone's head. Unless a course of action is in the sacred name of democracy or public considered desirable, it is extremely unlikely service — this is the motivation behind this that anyone, let alone the hon. member for resolution — we want to control. Now to Peel, would move that it be done purely argue that because Government persuaded a with the altruistic intention of removing a public company to carry out a programme sword hanging over the heads of the Isle at considerable cost, such as the Liverpool of Man Steam Packet Company, or the Isle Landing Stage, and pays a subsidy to cover of Man Railway, or Road Services Limited. the cost, the public or Government repre- In other words when he explains why he senting the public has a right to interfere moves the resolution I do not believe him. in the affairs of the company. This is the (Laughter.) If his information is as good as suggestion. Now this is hardly the way I it was on another matter a month ago, both suggest to encourage public companies to about the affairs of a company and the co-operate with Government at all in any people concerned with it, it is likely to be matter. T am, I may say, satisfied with the most unreliable and certainly of very doubt- amendment that has been circulated by Mr. ful value, It is obvious that control of the Speaker but I do not like the membership Steam Packet Company is the object, this of the Committee altogether. I accept the is my view. The rest is so sweeping as to suggestion of three of the members, but I need a great deal of further examination would propose a Committee of five, Your as to its practicability. Further, the report Excellency, and I have in mind the hon. is eight years old and circumstances have member Mr. G. T. Crellin representing changed very considerably in eight years. Finance Board and perhaps Mr. Nivison. I What may have been good in 1966 may not would also like, in moving the amendment,

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T787

to insert the words "if any" so that it will in Tours (Isle of Man) Limited. is well read "for a report on which, if any, of such known to them, they are satisfied that no recommendations should in the light of part of the public money being spent on bus present circumstances be implemented". As services is finding its way into Tours (Isle the amendment is phrased it might appear of Man) Limited. On the contrary, it may Tynwald was of opinion that some of them well be that the interest in Tours (Isle of should be implemented. I trust that the Man) Limited does make it worthwhile to Court will reject the resolution as it stands continue to operate as a company and to and will accept Mr. Speaker's amendment operate a bus service with Government as amended by my suggestion of two further assistance. I say it may be so, I have no members of the Committee. I am glad that indication that it is so. With regard to the counsel has mentioned the matter of the hon. member for Rushen who made the Liverpool Landing Stage. Actually Govern- remarks about protecting the Steam Packet ment was in my opinion very fortunate that Company, I think that I should say now that we had a sound local company with an for several years Finance Board has been in interest in the Isle of Man to co-operate in constant touch with the isle of Man Steam the arrangements for financing a project Packet Company so as to take at once any which I am afraid would not otherwise have action that may be necessary to protect the got off the ground at all. No money was Island's interest in the Isle of Man Steam available from the British Government, no Packet Company. Finance Board has not money was available from any other source, been asleep, we know when steps arc taken the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board as by various people acting as agents or nomi- they were then were quite unable to assist nees, we know what is happening and we are and but for the Manx Government stepping ready at any moment to come to Tynwald in to finance this and using the Isle of Man to take steps to protect the company and Steam Packet Company as the agent for in protecting the company to protect the obtaining repayment the work could not Island's lifeline. I want to give that have been done and the seasons for assurance to the Court because we have the future in the Isle of Man would been doing this for some considerable time have suffered very considerably. We have in the interest of Government and the undoubtedly a board of public spirited men interest of the people of the Isle of Man, who are able and willing to help Govern- so that there is no necessity whatever for ment. Regarding Isle of Man Road Services us to think of taking over the Steam Packet Limited I feel sure that there is no ad- Company in order that we may protect the vantage whatever to be gained either by the Isle of Man. It is adequately protected I am public or by Government by taking steps quite sure, I do oppose the resolution as it towards nationalisation. We have even now stands, sir, but I am prepared to support effective and efficient management which is the amendment as further amended. by reason of financial stringency virtually under Government control, both financially Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, on a point and regarding fares and routes by the of order so that we do not get adrift. The Transport Commission. The Committee hon. member is moving an amendment to dealing with the assistance to stage coach Mr. Speaker's amendment when it is not services has received really up-to-date, before the Court yet. all the information it has required, and the fact that Road Services has an interest The Governor: That is the situation.

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T788 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

!...111116.11••.!■MMIMC•

Mr. Kneale: I think, before he concludes, Mr. Clucas: They are travelling steerage. that he should give a full amendment with- (Laughter.) out any reference to Mr. Speaker's amend- ment. Mr. Bolton: I am quite happy to leave the word as Mr. Speaker moved it. A Member: He has already spoken once.

Mr. Bolton: May 1 move the full amend- The Speaker: I will second the amend- ment then if Mr. Speaker's has not been ment moved by the Finance Board cuckoo. seconded. (Laughter.) In doing so I would say this, that the criticism of the hon. member for The Governor: It has not been moved yet. Peel I believe to be totally unjustified. If this Court is to .wait for the administration Mr. Bolton: Oh, it has not been moved. to get on with the implementation of various Well then T will move the amendment. reports that have been received, it would Perhaps Mr. Speaker may then oblige me wait for ever. When you come down to by seconding it and the amendment will be brass tacks it rests very often on the in order. (Laughter.) I may say that I am shoulders of the individual member to prod only doing this because Mr. Speaker turned forward those particular resolutions and to round and said "you move it". Is not that make something hatch out. Your Excel- right? Did you say? lency, in looking at this proposal today, I felt that an amendment was necessary be- The Speaker: I said I agreed with your cause 1 thought that perhaps some members idea of an extension of the Committee to might share the viewpoint of the hon. broaden its compass. member for Glenfaba and try to throw the baby out with the bathwater. This to me Mr. Bolton: I see, well, it does not matter very much who moves it as long as it gets would be wrong, and it would be wrong because of a position which has been amply moved. The amendment is that for the illustrated by the hon. member for Rushen, words "is of the opinion that" there may be substituted the words "refers to a Mr. Simcocks. I doubt frankly the ability, or the authority, or the power of the Island's Steering Committee comprising of a Tyn- Finance Board to control as effectively as wald member of the Airports Board, Har- the Chairman has said this afternoon, to bour Board and Highway and Transport protect this. (Interruption.) You safeguard Board respectively, together with Mr. G. T. the Island's interests and stop this company Crellin representing Finance Board and Mr. being plucked and taken over by a "Jay". J. C. Nivison" and that before the words "be implemented" there be inserted the Now if that were to happen, I say, with respect, that it is very doubtful whether this words "for a report on which, if any, of Board could, in fact, intervene in time and such recommendations should in the light effectively with the powers they possess at present circumstances" and then it goes on this moment. So that I do welcome the to say "be implemented". opportunity that has been offered to the The Attorney-General: Do you want Court of looking once again at this problem. "steering" in? It is a problem which has changed ad- mittedly since 1966, but T believe there is still Mr. Bolton: This is Mr. Speaker's word, a problem. We have been pinpointing the "steering". Steam Packet Company and their passenger

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T789

services. To me one of the greatest prob- in this Island, "oh, everything is wonderful, lems of all is the transport of goods, where we bought a Blaw Knox 20 years ago and perhaps the Steam Packet are now the because of that our roads must be the best junior partner and Ronagency plays a very in the world". Well quite honestly they are substantial part in such work and I am not not. They are good, but they arc not that satisfied, Your Excellency, that all our good, and so you go on, Your Excellency, Boards working in their own little compart- and we can be critical of every clement of ments have in any way produced a solution our handling administration. I would say to the problem of handling the present day that the harbour pattern is quite outdated traffic into this Island in a containerised and that we must have coming into the form. I am quite convinced here that it is harbours a different type of handling and a not only the Steam Packet that has to be different type of vessel even to ensure that looked at, but the whole position of handling we get the most out of servicing this Island goods both by sea into the Island and distri- in the way of goods from outside. These bution within the Island, and in that respect are all things that I am quite sure a Com- I would not accept for one moment the mittee, such as has been suggested, could suggestion of learned counsel that you leave well look into and I think the time has everything alone. We may have to disturb come to look into them. We arc today more some of the pattern and I for one quite than ever concerned about maintaining a honestly would take over the rest of the level of traffic I think to the Island and in Isle of Man Railway Company without this respect I think it is imperative that hesitation because it would be in the interest harbours and airways must be closely linked of the Manx people to do so and give us in their thinking because you have to secure a centre and a distribution point and a a level, I suggest, of traffic which will give connecting link. Your Excellency, there are us services which will enable people to come many things — that is only a personal ex- and take advantage of the Island as a pression of opinion — but 1 am sure that holiday resort or to live here and commute members share with me viewpoints that may if you like. Without maintaining that sort well be aired to a committee of this sort of level services will deteriorate and I and which can be examined in the light of believe they can best be maintained by a their own experience as the people who in system of co-ordination. I feel here you particular are entrusted with the handling of people and goods within this Island. Your know that we should embark on this par- Excellency, going on from that point we ticular problem in the same way as we have, I believe, a need to look at our own tackled the amalgamation shall I say of the house and decide whether or not we should water authorities of Douglas and of Tyn- Put it in order and examine whether or not wald. Bring them together gradually in a there is merit in an amalgamation of the little steering committee, let them gradually Highway Board, the Airports Board and the resolve the areas of difficulty and it can be Harbour Board. Will this lead to smoother done. It has not been done with electricity operation? Will it lead to the use of and that needs a good kick to put it on machinery more effectively? Will it lead to its way —(laughter)-- but apart from that, an improvement of services? These are all Your Excellency, this one is one that can considerations I think that must be looked be brought along I believe to the benefit of at by this particular Committee. I think we this Government and the Manx people and can be complacent and very often say that I am not suggesting nationalisation at all.

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T790 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

an-i suggesting the strongest possible com- his that I want to comment on. He says petition being engendered between the private that Manx people will hold on to their enterprise sectors to give us the benefit of shares in the Isle of Man Steam Packet their know-how and experience and I beg to Company, they are loyal to the company. second the amendment. the shares have been in families for genera- tions. I remember the same thing being said Mr. Creer: At first when I read this re- about the Palace and Derby Castle Com- solution a month ago on the Agenda I pany, but I know how many of them held intended voting against it and I was con- on to their shares when the amount of vinced that I was going to vote against it money was attractive enough for them. after I heard the mover of it today, but There is no loyalty when there is profit now after hearing the amendment I hope about and there are very few people loyal that this amendment will be carried now to that degree. The hon. member, Mr. with five members on it and when they Bolton, seems to suggest that because the investigate this I hope they will go into the Finance Board know of the movement of cargo services. I had some disturbing news shares then everything is in order. Mr. yesterday as regards drugs coming to the Bolton knows how little he could do at the Isle of Man, some firms are threatening time of the Palace and Derby Castle take- because of the cargo service to the Isle of over. Man, to stop drugs from coming here, that was disturbing news at our own Board Mr. Balloon 1 was not there. meeting yesterday. I think that this Com- Mr. Kneale: You were here and you mittee will study the cargo service and go were commenting on the manoeuvring of into it pretty well. Also in the building trade shares, but you could not do a thing about there are certain makers of baths, and it and I think it is time that we as a Govern- lavatory basins and all, they are refusing ment got down to see what legislation we to send stuff to the Isle of Man now and can have ready, that if ever a motion arises I think that could be gone into too. I did or there is a move to take over — and you intend voting against the resolution from can be quite sure that these boys that the very start but I will support the manipulate shares these days do not give amendment. you a trumpet call that they are going to do it, they have gOt all their plans made Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, although and it happens virtually overnight. It is time seconded the original resolution that did not we had our legislation ready so that we mean that I was in favour of it. I felt that can jump in straight away to stop it and the matter should be discussed, that we unless we do that we have got no safeguard should hear learned counsel on this and I at all about this lifeline. As regards the am glad that this has led to the amendment Liverpool Landing Stage, it was suggested that has come forward and I can support by learned counsel if I heard him right, that this. Virtually everything I have got to say Government had not contributed anything has been said before, but I think the re- to this. If my memory is right, they are marks that were made by the hon. member responsible for the money that has gone Mr. Simcocks need underlining because I to Liverpool, but Government is subsidising think his remarks were the most important the interest, so that Government has quite in the debate today. We heard from learned a big financial stake and there is a subsidy counsel and there are only two remarks of in that way, that we are giving them a

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T791

lower rate of interest. As regards the 'bus reduced their declared dividend and perhaps services, Road Services, I served on the arrived at a smaller increase in the fare. Committee and I believe we arc still in This is what the vast majority of the public existence, the Transport Committee of Ex- are thinking and saying, particularly in the ecutive Council, and 1 know only too well tourist industry. The Isle of Man Steam how evenly divided the arguments arc in Packet apart and different from other favour of public ownership or private enter- private companies is the lifeblood to the prise on this. We came down on the side Island and, as such, it has special respon- of letting private enterprise carry on at the sibilities, so I would go along with the moment, but the time could change very common thought that there should he a quickly where we have got to take over. Government representative on the board of If the company decided that they were no the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company that longer going to operate, then we could have would be enabled to come and report back the baby never mind about the bath water, to Tynwald and say, they are proposing such so we have got to be ready for this one as and such a rate of dividend, but Tynwald well. With those few remarks, sir, I support might eventually say, no you will only put the amendment. the fares up so much and reduce your divi- dend by so much. This, in my opinion, is Mr. Ranson: Your Excellency, I rise to the way it ought to be done, not nationalis- support the amendment. I do not advocate ing. On a question — there is not for me to nationalisation of the Steam Packet. tell the hon. member for South Douglas who is sitting here listening to me boring him Mr. Bell: You will get thrown out if you to death, he can always go out of the say that. Chamber. (Laughter.) The question of 'buses I hope I never live long enough to see the Isle of Man Government attempting to Mr. Ranson: I never have. Anybody thinking that it would be improved on nationalise the 'bus services because they nationalisation, a better achievement, is an would be very, very foolish if they did. I have been in company with Mr. Lamhden imbecile. To build the number of ships that they have done without going every inch since the inception of the 1966 Transport of the money market or approaching the Authority when he repeatedly, year after Government for huge sums of money, is an year, in company with his counsel declared the very serious financial state they were in indication enough, but, they seem to think, and how essential it was that they had to by the learned counsel, that this hon. Court have these fares made higher sometimes is questioning their efficiency. I do not think that is the case. I think it is more a question even twice a year. Now, if a company is in such 'a sad state of finance, losing money to me, of profit distribution. There is a moral issue to some extent in it that they every year according to them, then I would say rather than nationalise them, just let are slipping in their public relations and not them simply fade out and the Isle of Man paying heed to the fact that a lot of people are of the opinion that some of the profits, Government could start one on its own particularly last year, when they. had a and cost them nothing. record profit, which, jolly good luck to them, that instead of putting up the fares Mr. Clucas: Your Excellency, I will not to the amount that they did, should have keep the hon. members very long. Indeed I at least, from a further proportion of it, was one, who, in fact came to this Court

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T792 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 2!, 1974

feeling that 1_ was not at all going to support all probability, clearly understated, arc £4.8 the take-over of the private enterprise con- million, so in other words, already your cerns, but that I was conducive to the shares which, at the moment are, something thought that an amalgamation of the Boards like 135p, probably would immediately go would be of benefit to the administration of up to £3'20 per share so one really is talking our Government. However, since hearing the in quite large money if one is considering various contributions and the hon. member 51 per cent. interest in that company alone. for Council, Mr, Bolton's amendment, I too Whilst on the subject of shareholdings, I do will support the amendment so that the think in a way that this business of nomi- matter can be thoroughly looked at with, as nees has been a little overstated. The figure, is were, the heat switched off. There is one if I have done my sums correctly, the largest other rather important reason why I feel I shareholding of ninety- something thousand must just rise and that is, I think this is shares actually amounts to just a shade over one of those occasions when I think it is 6 per cent. of the equity and the two share- right and proper to declare an interest and holdings of 30 per cent. or thereabouts, I do have a fairly small shareholding in the those 30,000 shares or thereabouts amounts Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and I to something like 2 per cent. each, so in have -held this for over 20 years and it is less all those top three shareholdings, I would than one-tenth of 1 per cent. of the com- say, amount to very roughly 10 per cent., pany's equity. Nevertheless, I think that since it is not any more than you would expect this company's equity and the possibility in many, many other companies. 1 do of Government acquiring control is involved, not also feel that Government should be I think it is necessary for me to state that. nominees by reason of their apparent There are two or three other points though, participation to the extent that has been Your Excellency, and I feel that, as time is mentioned. I certainly do not accept the pressing, I would just concentrate on the arguments that because we are subsidising, Isle of Man Steam Packet aspect of the if you like that word, because we are sub- resolution before us. First of all let me just sidising the rate of interest which the Steam emphasise this is in no way a Harbour Packet must pay on the development, or Board resolution. It is entirely a private the re-development, of the Landing Stage at member's motion and indeed I speak, I Liverpool that that gives us any right at all think for the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. to an equity stake in the company. We are Faragher and myself, when I say we were not subsidising the capital, Your Excellency, not even invited, let atone decided to we are subsidising certainly to an extent, the support this, interest. The last point I would like to mention is this question, and this is a Mr. Bell: That is Board policy! question of the net profit that is earned by this company and, of course, the references Mr. Clucas: No, it may be one Board's that have been made quite recently in policy. Reference has been made, of course, recent months, to the high fares now quoted to £1,500,000 issued capital and 1 do happen for travelling to and from the Island. The to have the company's latest accounts, those fact is that if one ignores entirely the divi- for the year ended 31st December 1973, dend paid by this company for this last year here, and in fact the net assets employed by the net profit after tax was £440,000. We the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company also know that approximately the.cost of the and these are at their book values and, in new vessel which counsel referred to and is

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued, TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T793

now on order is £3 million, If one accepts wish to attract passengers and in every case those round figures it means that assuming the cost per passenger mile is less, the cost that the company ploughs every penny that per car mile is less, the cost per motor-bike it earns back into its operations, it is going mile is less and I notice that to bring an to take seven years to pay for that one vessel 11 foot vehicle across here costs £20 and alone and, probably, at the end of that one can motor approximately a thousand seven years there will he requirements to miles in Great Britain on that and I feel re-build or purchase new vessels at least these costs are going to deter many, many probably another two vessels, since of course passengers from coming here and I hope it is well-known that the vessels purchased something can be done about it. just after the war are all approaching their 25 to 30-year-old life. indeed, the fact is Mr. E. D. Kneale: Your Excellency, if I that the profit after tax is expressed as a may, to Mrs. Quayle . . (Interruption.) percentage of the capital employed and 1 would emphasise it is their statement of Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, speaking capital employed and it is probably under- as a member of the Transport Commission stated, last year was about 9 per cent. The set up in 1965 and of the Transport Com- previous two years it was under 3 per cent., mittee of three years later may I say that Your Excellency. In other words in the last circumstances in 1965 were very different to three years the return on capital has been 1974. At that stage the general knocking- 5 per cent. 1 do not honestly believe, sir, door I would say in the Isle of Man, was that the tobacconist who runs the corner the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company. It kiosk would he very satisfied with that return was found on examination by the Com- on his capital. I personally feel that I do mission, particularly by our shipping expert, not share the euphoria at the future pros- David Hunter, that all was much, much pects for this company. I think they have better than it was generally made out to be. some very, very serious problems ahead with There were, however, areas where improve- which to grapple. ments could be made. The same to an extent, again I am speaking when we took Mrs. Quayle: Your Excellency, I will not evidence in 1965, applied to the internal keep the Court for a moment, but as we transport which in general was somewhat of have learned counsel here with his Road a dog's dinner. At that stage my Bill for Services hat 1 would like to comment on the setting up Traffic Commissioners had not politeness and helpfulness of the staff on the started to bite, it now of course has, there- buses and I hope he will pass my comments fore the Commission came forward with a on, but with his Steam Packet hat on, I grand design well knowing it was unlikely wanted to comment op the fares. Fares to to be immediately implemented by Tynwald, the Continent, Your Excellency, are largely but the grand design was in an area 30 by more expensive, but they have a very big 12 surely all sections of transport could be volume of traffic, but the ones that I am unified including Government departments interested in, the Danish to Esbjerg, the and this was the basic underlying theme of Norwegian ones to Boma or Stavanger and the Transport Commission's report. By the the Prins Line to Bremerhaven. the B. & I. very facts as they transpired, the very facts to Ireland and the Weymouth line to the we foresaw happening, Tynwald of course Channel Islands, all these are little com- did not approve the report, but Tynwald panies running to little countries and they in fact did set up a Committee, of members

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T794 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

of Tynwald, to examine and if you read that Unit Limited of London to produce a report in . context you will find that every very detailed report on how to carry section of it suggests consultations, consul- out the work of taking over these com- tations, consultations. It does not suggest panies, and then another one set in later, any take-over bids or anything of that but someone knew about this and seems nature and therefore I am pleased to see to have forgotten. Your Excellency, there the way this debate has gone today. It was is one thing and that is I cannot accept in fact just continuing the duty of the what Mr. Bolton said, that I have an consultative committee. ulterior motive. If I should accent this then I am accepting this on behalf of Miss Cowin: Your Excellency, I should some very good members of this Transport like to make it quite clear that I shall never Commission. They assured us right at the be in favour of nationalisation, but I have beginning that when they went into this they questions here 1 would like answered and had no ulterior motive whi.tsoever. They they concern the 'bus company. To what were setting out to produce for Tynwald extent does a monopoly exist in tour com- something which they thought was in the panies? What proportion of holdings of the Island's interests. Perhaps, firstly, Mr. Bolton overall Island tour services does Road Ser- does not like me but that does not worry vices sustain? To what purpose is the policy me in the slightest. I will be here when he adopted of using tour 'buses so grossly out is gone. (Laughter.) The Lord is on my side. of keeping with the size of the roads and Your Excellency, I would thank learned the size of the highways? Also, finally, what counsel for what he did say, I would like to happens to the tour 'buses belonging to the assure him again, as I have just said, that 'bus services before the 'bus service main- as his family have served in the Steam tained two separate entities, the 'bus services Packet, so have mine, some going back into and the tour services? I feel in fairness to the middle, late 1800's. My grandfather, my the 'bus service and the tour services I must father and my two uncles and in fact as a bring forward these questions which have small boy one of the first things I remember been in the minds of people over a period was being taken down, Andrew Douglas was of years. then the chairman, I think, or the manager, being taken down to Douglas to watch the The Governor: Do you wish to reply? Steam Packet Company put on another Mr. MacDonald: Yes. Thank you, Your thing I always remember and that was the Excellency, I will be as brief as can and attack or copy of the attack at Zeebrugge try to answer everything. Your Excellency, and that is one of the earliest recollections I first of all I would like to say that I am in have so I have nothing against the Isle of fact quite pleased the way the debate has Man Steam Packet Company, let me get gone today, but there is one thing I would that quite clear. Your Excellency, now if I like to make quite clear from the beginning could answer individuals. and I think I must do in all fairness to, in fact, the members of the Transport Commis- The Speaker: Peel's indebtedness to paint sion who sat and produced this report and as well. a later organisation which was set up which was not mentioned, wherein I presume I do Mr. MacDonald: Yes, sir, Peel in its not think Tynwald asked for it, but some- heyday, I mention this, Peel in its heyday, one asked for the Economist Intelligence in Peel they reckoned that every winter

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974 T795

when the boat was at the Tongue the whole affairs and wish to be left alone, well I do of Peel got repainted and the whole of Peel not think I have any wish to do otherwise was painted in red and brown. This may be than try to safeguard the Manx taxpayer fact, 1 do not know. (Laughter.) In fact, and I would give every encouragement to someone once said every time the late the well being of this company's activities. I Spencer painted the Cingalec it was in the think we all would. I see nothing wrong in Harbour Board colours. Your Excellency, I this at all. Your Excellency, I also think have never said and I am rightfully giving that we have today not just carried out an what 1 set out to say, I do not criticise the exercise. I said from the beginning that I Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and in have a feeling and I have always felt this this I wouldlikc to thank the hon. member since being in this Court, that there arc for Rushen, Mr. Simcocks, for his remarks. times when committees and commissions sit, What we have got to make certain of is they spend a lot of time, they produce that we cannot wake up one morning and reports. There is one, there is two, there is find that certain people whose names quite another one the learned member of Council nicely appear on the list of shareholders are had today with him, I have not got mine in fact, not the people at all and that but the same copy from 1959, I have got it someone has very cleverly acquired more at home, we go on doing this, paying money, than the 10 per cent. that it would appear bringing people in, calling back members the nominees now hold. This I see is the that were here before, bringing them from danger, this I see, that it could happen across to study and look at and at the end suddenly and even "God" could not stop it. of it nothing is done. The Court never He said he could do but I doubt it. Your decides a thing and i think this is the worst Excellency, I also feel that the Isle of Man thing that can happen in public life, Your Steam Packet Company have done a good Excellency, Mr. Anderson said he would job over the 144 years it has existed but I not like Government to take over, private also, Your Excellency, would like to say enterprise should be allowed to carry on its that as learned counsel said the Steam own business; I think it should provided it Packet Company really, their main aim and does not come to the taxpayer to help it it must be I suppose, is to serve their share- to do so. There is a limit that the taxpayer holders, this is understandable but I think can go to in these matters without the tax- he would also agree with me that the main payers becoming involved. I do not care aim of this Court is to look after the what anyone says, this I believe to be true. interests of the Manx people, the Island I do not think, Your Excellency, Miss and its taxpayers and people in general. Cowin, the hon. member for Douglas East, she did ask about the extent of the mono- poly. Well, I do not know. All I know is A Member: The residents of the Island. at the moment there are eleven coaches left operating tours. There are five little coach Mr. MacDonald: The residents of the operators, that is all that is left of the once Isle of' Man. And so we have a bigger thing mass of small operators around the Isle of to look at, we have something else on our Man. All the rest is done by Tours (Isle of backs to watch. Your Excellency, 1 think in Man) Limited and, in fact, i had only my mind this is the most important. With yesterday the secretary of one orthese office regard to the Steam Packet Company being organisations of the small men saying to quite capable of looking after their own me, they do not even get the chance now

Transport Commission Recommendations—Debate Continued. T796 TYNWALD COURT, MAY 21, 1974

Mr. Anderson: Hire cars. Kneale, Devereau, MacDonald, Hislop, Sir Henry Sugden and the Speaker —21. Mr. MacDonald: No, no, they do not even get the chance to do anything. A boat Against: Mr. Anderson — 1. was in yesterday the "Kungsholm", the Tourist Board had asked Tours (Isle of Man) The Speaker: Your Excellency, the to do it; the small people were not even amendment carries in the House of Keys, invited to do it, so I was told yesterday. 21 votes being cast in favour and one vote This is had. Yes, well I will tell you this, I against. was told this last night, this is very bad, because I think small men should be en- In the Council — couraged to operate where you have a big organisation virtually swallowing the lot. It For: Messrs. Bolton, Radcliffe, Nivison, should be shared out and this is the danger Crowe, Kerruish and Quayle — 6. which the Transport Commission saw, Your Excellency. 1 do not think that really anyone Against: Nil. else needs answering and so 1 think I can leave this issue after 144 years of the Steam The Governor: The amendment carries in Packet to the Court's good judgement and the Council, six in favour, none against. Now decide. the resolution as amended. Those in favour please say aye; those against say no. The The Governor: Hon. members, I will first resolution, as amended, carries. put the amendment proposed by Mr. Bolton and seconded by Mr. Speaker. Members are aware of the content, or do you wish memo- ries refreshed? Those in favour please say BILLS FOR SIGNATURE--REQUISITE aye. Those against say no. SIGNATURES OBTAINED.

A division was called for and voting The Governor: Hon. members, before we resulted as follows:— consider the question of adjournment, have to announce that all the Bills presented In the Keys for signature have received signatures. is it the wish of the Court that we should For: Messrs. Kermeen, Clucas, Radcliffe, adjourn until 10.30 tomorrow morning? Miss Thornton-Dueshery, Messrs. Creer, Ranson, Spittall, Simcocks, Crellin, It was agreed. Faragher, Mrs. Quayle, Messrs. Moore, Bell, Trying, Miss Cowin, Messrs. The Court adjourned,

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Bills for Signature—Requisite Signatures Obtained.