Transcript Q&A 's Rotten Core: Money, Politics and the Rule of Law

Alexander Lebedev Chairman, National Reserve Corporation; Publisher, ; Non-Executive Director, Independent and

Mark Galeotti Clinical Professor and Academic Chair, SCPS Center for Global Affairs, New York University

Vladimir Ashurkov Executive Director, Foundation for Fighting Corruption

Chair: John Lloyd Contributing Editor, Financial Times; and Director of Journalism, Reuters Centre for the Study of Journalism, University of Oxford

20 June 2012

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Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core

John Lloyd: It's question time now. Let me use up my position and ask the first one and preface it by a short anecdote, not an 'anekdot' in the Russian sense. Just a small story about a very, very close friend of mine who had been – since this is on the record, I won't mention his name – he had been a correspondent in Russia for some years. He returned to see some friends, borrowed a car from his colleague who succeeded him as bureau chief, went out to a restaurant and drank a non-alcoholic beer, he tells me. And you who know Russia well, many of you, will know that any alcohol in the blood is an offence when you're driving.

He was driving peacefully back, was stopped by a GAI, by a traffic inspector, who leant into the window of the car, smelled his breath, and said he'd been drinking. Having said that, the GAI paused in a marked fashion, and my friend thought, the hell with it, I'm not going to do the usual thing. I didn't have a drink, at least I didn't have an alcoholic drink, I'm going to say, 'So? I've had a non-alcoholic drink'. The GAI then said, you must come with me. He went to a station, a GAI station on the side of the of [inaudible], which I think is the main GAI headquarters, went up a number of stairs, and came into a room where a lady of a certain age wearing a white overall was sleeping. He addressed her as 'comrade doctor', and said, ‘I have arrested this man on suspicion of being drunk.’ She then gave him a test, the result of which she concealed, and then said to the policeman that indeed he was drunk. There was then another significant pause, after which the policeman said to my close friend, it was Friday evening about midnight, you will have to go to the cells, you can't phone anybody. We'll see what the courts will say on Monday. We'll have to give you a blood test.

At that point my courageous friend's courage broke. And he said, I'm told, 'Is there a way of settling this now?' And the policeman said, 'there is a way', of $150, which, I was then later told, would have been a good deal less had it been done quickly.

The anecdote is still told partly to embarrass my friend, but also to put to you, all of you, especially the two Russians: how possible is it to get by in Russia without bribery? How much, as Mark was saying, is there a system which enfolds everything which with the best possible will in the world, and the cleanest of intentions, you simply cannot avoid? Who wants to start?

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Alexander Lebedev: Well, my answer would be very simple: look at Georgia. That was the most corrupt, probably, part of the former . How has it been achieved? It's a pretty simple story. The police doesn't take any bribe anymore. Same as here.

Vladimir Ashurkov: Well, I think it's an individual choice for everybody. It's indeed difficult to get by without petty corruption like the one described with the notorious Russian traffic police. But I think the more important things are happening at the high level, where we see, and it's sort of widely recognized fact among the business elite that the corruption happens at the highest level with Putin's cronies amassing billions of dollars through favouritism in the privatisation, through oil trading – we know the scandal with the Gunvor oil trading company. We know that most millionaires in the Russian government are multimillionaires, in some cases billionaires.

This is all sort of stuff that's daily in the Russian business news, and nobody does anything about it. So petty corruption is bad enough, but people get by with it. But I think the real starting point for fighting corruption has to be the political will at the top.

John Lloyd: Mark, did you want to add to that?

Mark Galeotti: Yes, I think I very much agree that, I mean, in some ways Georgia is a good and a bad example. It's a good example, absolutely, in that they managed to purge and cleanse extraordinarily the Georgian police force. However, I don't really think I want to hold up Georgia as an example of a country where there is no corruption. It's almost entirely simply moved up the chain of command from the ordinary copper to the rather more senior figures.

Alexander Lebedev: John, that's interesting, and I want to pick up from that. I think the petty corruption, which is in the example you've given, and the kind of corruption

www.chathamhouse.org 3 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core the Russian prosecutor's office reports very often they are fighting, which are doctors and teachers, I mean it is something which is not that important at the moment. And again, I think there are ways how you clean it up by changing the institutions. But the corruption about, say, a thousand people who have misappropriated $700 billion in the recent nine years – this is a lion's share of the $2 trillion which Russia actually received from high export prices in the recent ten years. That is something which is worth being doing. And I would take a bet that we know eight percent of the accounts, numbers, banks, lawyers, names, and we do report it in the paper. But what can we do alone, I mean, our law enforcement agencies are either protecting them or they are ill qualified to do that. They wouldn't even be able to pronounce, say, Credit Suisse or, I don't know, I mean, certain capitals and jurisdictions and lawyers in other banks.

Only international effort is something which can help clean that mess. For that amount of money, let's say we do agree with these people at some stage, like Abacha's story in Nigeria, where his family would return part of the money from $5 billion he has pocketed, to the people of Nigeria, $1.2 billion out of $5 billion, if I'm not mistaken. For, say, a third of what has been misappropriated by certain people in the Russian government, you can improve all of the roads in Russia and save 40,000 lives a year we are losing on a yearly basis on roads. Isn't that an interesting task for the opposition to achieve? Partially for [inaudible], partially for cooperation internationally. Just to be more practical, not to go into stratosphere, just to – I've sort of intentionally started from vague pronouncements.

John Lloyd: Over to you. Please indicate, and when I call you please give your name. Sir, right at the back.

Question 1: I covered Russia for twelve years. Alexander, what you're saying is actually one of the interesting things people are speaking about in , is if you're going to fight the corruption of the people at the top, then actually you need to give them a 'get out' clause, yeah? Do you think – could you speak a little bit more about that? I mean, is it not a little bit naïve to think that the people who have, as you say, accumulated $750 billion worth of assets are just going to sort of walk away from it?

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Alexander Lebedev: Well, in my recent lecture, which incidentally was viewed by 57,000 people, and it's the most boring thing I've ever done in my life, so people looking at it for 45 minutes are professionals, from the banking community, journalists, law enforcement agencies, the government. I made a statement – and by the way, I jokingly asked Alexei why didn't he actually mention it in the blog – maybe because – I mean Navalny – I said I would take a bet that Putin has nothing to do with corruption in the banking sector. [Inaudible] I'm almost giving names, but that's $100 billion out of 200 banks which were falsely bankrupted in the recent seven years, under certain protection by certain people, a very limited number inside the central bank and law enforcement agencies, and Putin is not aware of that. Why wouldn't he go against it? I don't see the point. I agree with what has been mentioned, that maybe the government – just take it away from the opposition – should be interested in doing something at least in some part of that.

There are certain other types of corruption where you can have your doubts about the involvement of the top officials, but some of them are not corrupt. Besides, we have to find ways to find a compromise with certain people in the bureaucracy who are interested in making Russia more European. With all the problems that Europeans are experiencing, I still think it's a good example to follow.

And there you are. I intentionally picked up the corruption in the banking sector where huge banks were embezzled – only one bank, which is [inaudible] Bank, is – $3 billion just taken out from the clients inside the country and moved out through 200 loans to offshore companies controlled by a New Zealand trust. Now the guy's in France. He bought a paper in France, France Soir. Why would Sarkozy let him buy a paper? I mean, in every country they do protect – I went through this process, it's a highly complicated thing. You're being checked, your sources of funds, I mean, whether there's any danger coming to the free media. How Sarkozy would allow the guy to launder money, for a newspaper, which has been closed, by the way, France Soir. And it's a shocking story. I'm a banker for 20 years, I mean, I'm fed up with that, frankly speaking. I don't care that my bank is being attacked. If they take away my license it would probably be an interesting trap because I have Tier 130, which is the most unrivalled bank in the country. And the fact that they threatened and frightened all of my clients, I don't mind. I have a more important stake in actually continuing the investigations in the banking sector. And I do count on support from the government. Well, I may be mistaken, but I hope I get support from them. www.chathamhouse.org 5 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core

Even if we don't have a special prosecutor, like in the United States, to follow up corruption, or a special bureau for corruption, which hasn't been decided yet – well the Magnitsky case can only be decided by a special prosecutor, by the parliament, because it's too complicated of a case. But I would assure you that we will soon publish an interesting international investigation – where would the money go internationally, out of the Magnitsky case? Which were previously collected taxes pocketed by a group of individuals, some of them on the Magnitsky list.

Mark Galeotti: Very brief follow up on that – just an anecdotal point: when I was in Russia for the presidential elections, I met with someone who, again, because we're on the record I'll be very circumspect, not a hundred million dollars person but nonetheless a fairly senior figure within the security apparatus – amiable, smart and as corrupt as they come. And, I mean, from his point of view, he was interested in security more than anything else. He has all the money that he really needs. But he has all kinds of assets which are out of Russia and, you know, he is concerned about whether Europe starts sort of squeezing.

But secondly, and this is I think one of the real changes that's taking place, beginning to think of a post-Putin endgame. And I think that's one of the absolute critical sea changes that's taking place. And I think from his point of view, if he felt that someone was going to come along, and they were going to say, you know, year zero amnesty or, you know, come forward and we'll make a deal, I think he would regard it as a pretty good trade-off. So I think things are changing.

John Lloyd: Please.

Question 2: John Lough, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House. I have a question also to Mr Lebedev. I wanted to follow up on the Magnitsky question. I just wondered, I mean given your commitments to international action on corruption, are you a supporter of the Magnitsky Act? And I know that President Putin yesterday said that he regarded the death of Sergei Magnitsky as a tragedy, but he couldn't understand why the US was so concerned about it. www.chathamhouse.org 6 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core

Alexander Lebedev: Well, I am a supporter, but I wouldn't overestimate that. First of all the Russians will reciprocate. Secondly, on the list there are certain people who have nothing to do with it. It's not very correct. But as a sort of an instrument, to make the point, it's very important. But what's more important is actually tracing the money. And it's pretty easy because all of the money which was moved through [inaudible] there was a tiny bank with a $1 million capital, 20 million in assets, through which a $1 billion has been pocketed – Magnitsky case, which is corporate tax, it's $200 million, there are also VAT for another $800 million. All of the money moved through one week, through one bank, and went into Cyprus, Switzerland, Latvia, and a few other countries. We know everything about it. And what do we do with all of that? We have for example a former prime minister of United – of , who's been jailed in the United States, Lazarenko. He's remaining under arrest for 12 years, and even the Ministry of Justice have no resources to recover the money and give it back to the, you know, the Ukrainian people. I mean, it's just unbelievable how we live.

And I'm afraid that the fact that most of the Russian serious corrupt money sitting out of the country and laundered is not the Russians' fault. Originally it is, but I mean on the second stage. And that's the question I'm being asked by a lot of prime ministers. We have the same problem in Afghanistan, in Africa, in United States – Bernie Madoff was not arrested because the Ministry of Justice investigated it but because his son reported on him. I'm not sure about Allen Stanford, but I think all these two cases are tiny examples of things which happen even in this country. I can tell you a story about a part of the sub-prime debt, which is a disaster, with the German money, it's unbelievable. I do believe, by the way, the Société Générale guy, Kerviel, has been doing everything in cooperation with some senior figure in France for five billion euros – somebody made this money. Who made this money from Société Générale? I know.

So the problem is that we're not qualified to really understand the subject. When the 9/11 happened, 500 senior officers from white collar crime in the United States were moved on up to Al-Qaeda from financial – and every country in the world, including United States, are complaining they have not enough resources to do the anti-kleptocracy initiative, for example. This is going after, say, Gaddafi's money, but all the world is powerless in this sense. Why? Why is it that discussing these very useless things is at the G20? And what is the commission for the eradication of corruption doing? Such a big

www.chathamhouse.org 7 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core name, really. The G20 set this organization and [inaudible] – I traced it in Internet, nobody knows anything about it.

And the United Nations is a completely powerful – powerless organization to do anything on the – I've written, actually, letters a year and a half ago to leaders of countries as a matter of example, who ratified the UN convention. I've written a letter about Luzhkov and his wife. I picked up a document from the High Court of Justice in this country, which is in English, with lawyers, notaries in the Swiss Bank which has that annex – say, okay, I can give you the name because it's a public knowledge, it has been testified in court: Chigirinsky – has given half his business for free to the mayor of Moscow's wife. The business was worth $5 billion. And that has been notified in the bank in Switzerland.

So I address myself to sort of the leaders of various countries, say do something about it, because there's nothing to investigate. It's clear in this paper. I didn't get an answer. I just get an answer from the Russian police, after a year and half, they couldn't trace this gentleman Luzhkov and his wife. His wife is here in this country. I mean just for fun!

I mean this is an interesting thing which the Russian opposition should be focusing more, in my view. But it implies qualified people, really, because I've been talking to a few governors of the central banks in Europe – they are not aware what I'm talking about. It's really amazing! I mean we're – there are some people sitting on $20 trillion, they can do anything they want with this dirty money. They can attack every country. Maybe they're doing that, maybe sub-prime debt is a hand-made thing. Who knows.

John Lloyd: Thank you. Vladimir, do you want to come in on anything on this?

Vladimir Alushkov: Sure. I think Magnitsky Act in the US and similar measures that may be introduced in Europe are – may not be 100 % perfect. Of course they're the result of a certain political process. But I think it's an important signal. And the people in the Russian political elite who are stealing billions of dollars, they – it's very sensitive for them to be able to access their capital that are stored here in the European and Western banks, to be able to purchase property, to be able to enjoy their vacations in Cote d'Azur and send their kids to private British schools. So if Magnitsky Act is sort of a symbol that not all of them will www.chathamhouse.org 8 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core enjoy this, and I understand that it will be made broader, possibly, with the inclusion of people not only associated with the heinous crime in the case of Magnitsky, but in other similar crimes in Russia – I think this will send a very strong example to the Russian leaders.

Question 3: I've got a couple of questions to Mr Lebedev about the case you mentioned, about the apology of the head of the investigative committee to Novaya Gazeta. First of all, I assume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Dmitry Muratov, the head of, the editor of the paper, consulted with you before making it public. So if he went public, if he had gone public, why was the decision made to make it public in this particular case? And another question that I've got related to this: you said we are satisfied with the apology. Does it seem normal that the head of the investigative committee can threaten journalists and then apologize and nothing – it looks as if nothing has happened. Thank you.

Alexander Lebedev: Well, normally the journalists of the papers I bear the responsibility of funding do not consult me. Sometimes they ask my opinion, this time – it was asked at some particular point when everything has been already done. Well, first of all – who would investigate that, finally? And then it's a tête-à-tête discussion. And in my view the outcome of the situation is the best we can get. We made public that we have been threatened. We received an apology from what is called the local FBI. And in Russia, people often are saying things for which they do not apologize and are sort of very sorry about later on, which, it is a country with a big history.

I would rather be of the opinion that we have created a precedent, I mean we – the head of the law enforcement agency and the newspaper, by saying okay, I mean, we've been too emotional in saying he's part of a gang, which is wrong, and we apologize. He apologized for saying wrong things. Which we – five % we made public, 95 we didn't. And we've been mostly concerned with security of our deputy editor, Sokolov, and his family, and I think we achieved what we wanted. And further on, continuing the scuffle – it's definitely the way Russia always behaves. That's always like that. I mean, and I think it's probably the most important precedent in the recent, I don't know, hundred years. Where would you see that in the Soviet Union or in Russia – the head of the law enforcement agency apologizes to an opposition newspaper? www.chathamhouse.org 9 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core

Unbelievable, in my view. I mean, it really – you have to give the guy credit for doing that. And I don't think he's been instructed to do that. So – and by the way, they are the ones investigating the Politkovskaya murder, and Sokolov was the one in cooperation with them because we did a lot ourselves. And lots of things we don't make public on that. So it's also very important. There's a lot of nuances in it. I don't understand the journalists, I mean, how, you just backtrack – we didn't backtrack! We received an apology and we closed the chapter and that's it. By the way, if you want my private opinion, I don't think it was worth to go to Echo Moscow [Radio] on Friday for Sokolov when he arrived back home, and say 'Yes I've been threatened', if you close the chapter...but again, who's going to listen to me – show me a journalist who's going to be listening to his publisher! In this country, or –

John Lloyd: There are quite a few.

Alexander Lebedev: But I bear the responsibility for everything they write!

John Lloyd: Rupert Murdoch comes to mind as one who is listened to. Sir.

Question 4: Alexander Lebedev has stressed the international dimension, the link with Russia elsewhere and the existence of corruption elsewhere. All speakers have stressed the attitude of countries being the crucial remedy. Are there any mechanisms that you would suggest? If there was an international scale agreement, what mechanisms would you seek to put into it?

John Lloyd: Mark, do you want to take that first?

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Mark Galeotti: Yeah, I'll be honest, I'm deeply sceptical of any mechanisms, international mechanisms, which are Russia-specific, anything that looks like we're treating Russia separately from every other country, and there are one or two other countries out there with corruption problems – some that are actually rather more substantial and serious – I think simply plays into a certain nationalist narrative and just simply encourages them to batten down the hatches. The difference is, and you know, again, going back to the things that Alexander was saying, was actually, if one is talking about a wider global initiative against corruption that applies equally to whoever, within which Russia would be expected and have to operate, I think that provides a lot more options.

And I mean, we do see that, already, for example in terms of how certain Russian companies that are looking to either float or operate outside of Russia have had – sometimes kicking and screaming, sometimes less so – to acknowledge and accept international standards of everything from accounting to probity. Because that's, to be blunt, where money is to be made, by becoming an international company. So I think it's more creating a general global sort of framework in which it is in Russia's interest to slowly try and adapt itself, rather than actually sort of setting out and having some grand plan as how we're going to fix Russia, because that will be not just deeply patronizing but as I think counter-productive.

John Lloyd: There are several people now wanting to come in, inevitably, as always happens, so I'm going to ask everybody who's raised their hands up until now to put their questions as briefly as possible and then ask the panellists, as we are now running out of time, to address what they can. The first was there. Sir.

Question 5: Russia has applied to join the OECD as a full member. Should it be allowed to join as a full member?

John Lloyd: Right at the back.

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Question 6: A number of analysts have pointed out how the persistence of corruption and the endemic-ness of the nature of corruption in Russia has affected the ability of the Vertikal to actually see orders kind of be effectively carried out and, you know, reach down and make sure commands are followed because, you know, everybody has an investment in not seeing the system cleaned up, much as we had during the Brezhnev era. Can you envisage any mechanism by which the authorities, even if they are committed to an anti-corruption programme, can kind of get people to effectively carry out their orders?

John Lloyd: Another mechanism question. Over there.

Question 7: My question is for Mr Lebedev. Do you want Alexei Navalny to be president, or who do you want to be the successor to ?

John Lloyd: Concise. Just a bit behind you.

Question 8: Mr Lebedev, you've painted a very enticing and exciting picture about the scope for renewed international campaigning on corruption, particularly in relation to the St Petersburg meeting of the G20. And you focused a lot on the question of illicit financial flows. So my question is, would you put more emphasis on attempting to control and close down offshore centres, from Cyprus to the Caymans, or on attempting to rule out shell companies and trusts which disguise the beneficial owners?

John Lloyd: This lady over here, who had her hand up – yeah, over there.

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Question 9: It's a question about – for Vladimir Ashurkov – and it's about the anti- corruption campaign. How serious is the threat to sue Alexei Navalny for describing the ruling party as a party of thieves and crooks, and what impact will that have on your work?

John Lloyd: Okay. So the last one here. I beg your pardon, last two.

Question 10: A very simple question: India suffers from corruption, and I believe they have a website called ipaidabribe.com. Is there any scope for that in Russia?

John Lloyd: You must be the last.

Question 11: As a person of Greek origin who's done quite a lot of business in Russia, I want to ask the panel a question. In terms of corruption, you have a start, [inaudible], and an end, the start being in terms of banks knowing your clients, [inaudible] being the transfer of funds when you have an electronic signature, and the end being a tipping point when either a country, in the case of Greece, or something precipitates the requirement of the country or the population to acknowledge corruption. Do you believe at least from the KYC standpoint and the transfer of funds that Russia has somewhere stored, or the rest of the world has stored, the potential people in terms of bribery and corruption, and the transfer of funds, so that in future, whenever that may be, Russia can always call upon this information? Thank you.

John Lloyd: Application to the OECD – should it be allowed? What's the mechanism to deal with endemic corruption? Do you, Alexander, want Alexei Navalny to be president? Where should the emphasis lie on campaigning on corruption? How serious is the threat to sue Navalny for calling the ruling party one of thieves? Should Russia take a tip from India and start a website called www.chathamhouse.org 13 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core ipaidabribe.com? And the last one I didn't understand, but probably the panel did – if you can very quickly just say what it was.

Question 12: Know your clients, when you start, when you open a bank account. Transfer the money, that usually you have an electronic trace so that you can have the information in the future whenever that future comes.

John Lloyd: Right, okay. Thank you. I'm going to start with you, Vladimir.

Vladimir Ashurkov: I'll take the OECD question first, I think. Despite the widespread political and economic corruption in Russia, and I think the West can have a – can take a tougher stance against that, I think the West still has to engage with Russia, and I think Russia's accession to the WTO and potential inclusion in the OECD are both positive factors. There should be a certain pull from the West so that Russia feels that it can join all these international institutions and which can serve as means to exchange the best practices, to exchange statistics, so that Russia is better put – for example, on OECD, Russia is better put on the map of transparency, of ease of doing business, and so on. I think it's a good step.

Mark Galeotti: I'm not going to try and touch the OECD. Let me sort of end in slightly anecdotal form. I remember once speaking to a Russian police officer who was essentially, I think, a smart, committed, able police officer, part of sort of the international brotherhood of cops. They all seem very much the same. First of all, he had a very clear sense that there were certain types of crimes and certain kinds of people it wasn't even worth his while investigating because he knew that there will be a phone call from someone, you know, halfway down the line saying 'back off', and he'd have to oblige. And in many ways – I mean he actually drew the example of Italy.

Now, I think he had a slightly starry-eyed notion of what had happened in Italy after the deaths of magistrates Falcone and Borsellino, when there was a sort of massive public outcry, which in a way forced a, not entirely honest, national www.chathamhouse.org 14 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core elite to actually unleash the magistracy and the police force. And that's very much the kind of sense I got, that there is a massive human capacity. I don't think the informational capacity is there. I suspect a lot has been just scrubbed or will have just disappeared. But nonetheless, I mean, there is that capacity. The question is precisely about how to create political structures which will force the elite to allow them to do their own work. And that's a mix of external and internal.

John Lloyd: Alexander, you last.

Alexander Lebedev: I definitely would support Russia joining OECD, if only because of the OECD anti-corruption convention, which Russia has just ratified. But there's lots of other good things which OECD might be of help. But it's not sort of a final remedy, of course, for improving, for example, business climate and anti- corruption practices.

Now, I've known Navalny for a couple of years. I think even the short programme he's coming up [with] – don't lie and don't steal – but he's got a wider sort of a programme. So yes, I would support him. But if he decides to run alone, then he has to be challenged by someone.

The – know your clients. This is something for ignorance. All of this electronic stuff and compliance, I mean, I once made public a story of my own investigation of my experience in Germany, Switzerland and America of a huge investment, and four or five banks, and all of them knew it was all fraud and conspiracy. So, I mean, somebody has to clean it all up because all of the procedures which do exist now do not work. And I've intentionally mentioned all these rogue traders – there's three of them for $10 billion. And somebody made this money out of these banks. So I'm afraid the system as it works now – most of the banks are part of the conspiracy to launder and to 'park' Russian money once the money moves out of the country. And everybody knows that. I mean, the Americans are sometimes teaching lessons to, say, UBS, on the tax eva – or [inaudible], in the recent story, and Credit Suisse now. But this is bilateral, and again they are pursuing their own campaigns, forgetting that some of the major companies like General Electric are not paying taxes from their profit inside the United States, which is pretty funny. They go after their own citizens in Switzerland, which is the right thing

www.chathamhouse.org 15 Transcript: Russia's Rotten Core to do, but they don't go after their own companies, major ones, getting tax exemptions instead of paying a corporate tax.

John Lloyd: Just let me repose the question from my colleague from The Times: how serious do you think the threat to sue Navalny for calling the party rogues and thieves is?

Vladimir Ashurkov: Should I go first maybe?

John Lloyd: You probably know him best.

Vladimir Ashurkov: Since the election of Putin as the president for the third term, we have seen sort of an escalation of the crackdown on opposition, including apartment searches, in our office, and in a few leading opposition figures. There are always these rumours that he may be sued. And if we just take a wider view, there are already people, political activists, that are in jail now on trumped-up charges and so on. We understand that in the short term, the authorities can pretty much do what they like because there is no – there are no feedback mechanisms that can put them in check. The judiciary is not independent. The press is – the television is government-controlled. The elections are not fair. But we believe in what we do. We will not stop, and we believe that in the medium and long term, there's only one way Russia can go, towards liberalization and more democracy and restoring this feedback mechanism, and that's what we fight for.

John Lloyd: We have to end it there, I'm afraid. Thanks to you for your attendance, for your questions. But above all thank you very much to Vladimir Ashurkov, to Mark Galeotti, and to Alexander Lebedev.

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