PBS’ “To The Contrary”

Trump vs Clintons, Religious Schools; We Were Feminists Once

Host: Bonnie Erbe

May 27, 2016

Panelists: Delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton; Conservative Commentator Dana White; Independent Women’s Forum Senior Fellow Julie Gunlock; Feminist Activist Erin Matson

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Announcer: Funding for To The Contrary provided by the Oak Foundation, the Colcom Foundation, ​ and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation

Bonnie Erbe: This week on To The Contrary: (SOT) First, the battle of the sexes between Trump and the Clintons. Then, sexual assault on religious campuses. Behind the Headlines: Feminism­ Is it a movement or a brand?

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Erbe:Hello, I’m Bonnie Erbe. Welcome to To the Contrary, a discussion of news and social trends from diverse perspectives. Up first, women and the elections: Republican Presidential candidate Donald Trump called a group of women up to the podium at a rally this week to make the point he doesn’t have a woman problem. However, his attacks against New Mexico’s Republican governor Susana Martinez and Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts suggest another story. And Trump aide Paul Manfort told the Huffington Post choosing a minority or a woman for VP would be seen as pandering and therefore not the best move for the candidate. Meanwhile Trump continues to slam Democratic front­runner Hillary Clinton calling her out as an enabler of her husband President Bill Clinton’s infidelity. And on Instagram this week Trump posted a picture of President Clinton smoking a cigar with the voices of two women who had accused him of sexual assault playing in the background

Erbe: So Congresswoman Norton will Trump's attacks against the raising of scandals that took place two decades ago, will they work to turn young people against Hillary Clinton, young people who weren’t around back then?

Congresswoman Norton: Bonnie, since when can you shame a woman by penning her husband's Infidelities on her? I hope never.

Julie Gunlock: Well, I would say that there is some accusations that Hillary helped harm the women that made the accusations, so I think it's perfectly fine for Trump to bring up the accusations.

Erin Matson: Trump campaigns dirty to the point you might almost say he is running for bigot in chief and so I’m just going to observe that I’m not surprised three of four women are turned off by him.

Dana White: I don’t it’s really going to matter. I think Hillary just has a personal problem with young voters.

Erbe: Yeah, but how big is it? I mean in a matchup against him, he has a problem with everybody just about except white males? I should say uneducated white males?

White:I think that’s true, but I think that Hillary suffers a greater deficit because she is a woman frankly for her unlikability. I think a male gets away with more and I think that Donald Trump in particular gets away with more because we know who he is and he’s been this person for 25 years.

Norton: You know, your notion that somehow it's fair game to attack Hillary because of Bill's infidelities because somehow she enabled women ­­ she not enabled women ­­ but lashed out against women or did something to those women. Before you throw that out again, which is what trump does he throws it out and backs it up with nothing. When you throw it out, seems to me you have an obligation to back it up with what in the world are you talking about. Give me some facts.

Erbe: Most of his­­ I don't know how he is doing among millennial voters. One tends to think his support is from white males who are a little older than that. But will, he’s got his own scandal going on. He happens to be married to a woman who posed nude for a major magazine. So is, is that ­­ plus all his infidelities, plus all his divorces. Which is more of a turn off to young people?

Gunlock: Well I do think that when you think about when I was in college and Clinton was running and there were a lot of scandals in that administration, and when he was running for president, and the whole you know, did I inhale, I mean that would not be shocking today. I think we have become a harder society to shock. So I don't know that the scandals are really going to make a difference. And certainly think Trump's wife posing naked in a magazine really is that big of a deal.

Erbe: You don’t think it is a big deal to have a first lady whose nude pictures are going to be projected all over the world constantly when she’s in the White House? Call me really old­fashioned, but I think that would ­­ forget the candidate ­­ but on that basis alone, I would never vote for a male or female for president.

Gunlock: Yes, but I think people are well aware of Trump as a reality star and that he has this glamorous wife and that she was a former model. So as far as shocking voters and swaying them, I don’t think it will make a difference.

Matson: Yeah, I mean Melania’s nude photos, that’s no big deal at all. And actually when you think about men getting voted for, I mean Scott Brown went and successfully got elected senator after he posed nude. And he even went so far as to move to try to take office in another state, too. So talk about male entitlement versus the standards that we put on women. So I don’t think that’s a big deal at all. I think that you know, The reality is is that Hillary Clinton is held to much higher standards because she is a woman. That that is not fair and that Donald Trump is deeply sexist and he’s got a lot of problems coming.

Erbe: What about his attacks on Elizabeth Warren and Governor Martinez? Is he single­handedly undoing all the progress the Republican party has made with women in the last 20 years?

White: I don't know that he’s single­handedly undoing it and I don't know that we have done that well in the last 20 years.

Erbe: Well White women. I mean President Bush won white women votes married white women both times that he ran.

White: He did. But I don’t think that that’s going to be what saves Trump or not. I think we also have to look at young voters in terms are we talking 18­30 because for me, frankly, reliving '92 and '94 I’m not interested. We’re talking about Vince foster, we’re talking about about investigations and the F.B.I. I mean, I’m tired of it. It feels like Groundhog Day to me.

Gunlock: I think we also need to remember that Hillary also has a woman problem. She is also deeply unpopular with women, particularly young women who tend to be going towards Bernie. So you know, I think this is a ­­

Erbe: It’s not deeply unpopular. She’s very popular with 35 plus ­­

Gunlock: She is as unpopular as Donald Trump with women.

Erbe: I do not think that is accurate.

Gunlock: And I think there is another thing that younger women really oppose and that is the way in which Hillary and some feminists talk to young women. That you have to get behind Hillary, there’s a special place in Hell if you do not support Hillary. This is language that young women don’t like. They don’t like to be, I mean this is sort of the reason for feminism. I am an individual I can make my own decisions. And I think they’re off ended by that kind of language.

Erbe: Eleanor talk me through this for a minute. When I talk to Democrats say they say the trump getting ahead in the polls, of Hillary, national polls, means nothing if you look at the electoral map there’s no way he can win. Explain that to me? Is that correct?

Norton: Of course they are going off the last two elections. But it is certainly true that the electoral map favors Democrats and it favors Democrats precisely because of social issues and because Republicans frankly have been in power more than Democrats and look at the economy they have to show for it. So It does seem to me that, yeah, if you look at last, last election's electoral college we’re doing great. However, where do the numbers come from? Which leaves them equal in popular vote well if they’re overdone in the south where Republicans are, of course, expected always to win anyway that’s one thing. And I have not seen the analysis one needs to see of where these numbers are to say that Democrats should relax. I don’t think it's time to relax at all.

Erbe: Your thoughts?

Matson: I strongly agree with that. Donald trump is a Fascist and I think we should take it seriously. I think it was a mistake for example when Huffington Post long ago decided to put him in the entertainment section rather than the politics section. Just because he’s saying outrageous things and dangerous things doesn’t mean that we should poo poo it and say you know there’s no way this country could elect this man. This country could very well elect this man. And so we need to take the threat seriously.

Erbe: Closing thoughts?

White: I think that Donald Trump definitely can win. I think he puts states in the Rust Belt in play. I don’t think you have to get the majority of the base of the Democratic party you just have to ensure that you don't get all of you. If you don't get as ­­ if blacks don’t come out in Philadelphia or the suburbs as much, Pennsylvania could go his way. If blacks don’t come out as much for Hillary in Ohio, Ohio can go his way. So I think he definitely has a path to the White House.

Erbe: Let me know what you think. Follow me on Twitter @bonnieerbe.

Erbe: From campaigns to campuses.

Erbe: How can religious universities and colleges balance their spiritual mission with athletics, ethics codes, and finding justice for women sexually assaulted on campus. Yes, it happens even at religious schools. Art Briles, the football coach of the nation's largest Baptist school, Baylor University was fired for his handling of several sexual assault allegations against his players. The university president, Ken Starr was demoted as well. Baylor was under mounting pressure from claims the institution considered the football coach untouchable. An ESPN report says Briles and Starr failed to investigate charges of rapes committed against students by players, despite the university’s obligation to do so under federal law. Complicating matters is an honor code that discourages students from talking about sex outside of marriage. Targets of sexual assault may be less inclined to step forward if doing so means they must first admit to violating that honor code. It has already happened at Brigham Young University, where a dozen students who reported rape said they were investigated or punished for honor code violations.

Erbe: So I heard a stinging commentary, by a sports commentator no less, saying that Ken Starr who spent millions of dollars and actually has publicly, marginally regretted how vigorously he pursued Bill Clinton for his infidelity 20 years ago but failed to investigate rape charges on his own campus. Now, he’s been demoted. Really, it looks like just a path for him to find another job and get the heck out of Baylor. Is this a turning point in colleges taking the gloves off when it comes to football coaches and campus rape?

White: What makes me scared about this whole situation is just how much money is involved in all of this. And no matter whether it’s a Christian institution or it’s Penn State. How much money is involved and how much they are willing to overlook the misbehaviors, the crimes of these football players because there is so much money involved in them playing football.

Norton: Yep. But when the Baylors of his world, A Baptist college he was the first non­Baptist Christian, hire the likes of Ken Starr, they are exposing what we should have known all along. And that is that these religious colleges are not controlled by the state. They are like every other college. When you go to Baylor, you don't take religion. You take whatever you would take at any college. So I wasn't surprised that Baylor or other colleges for that matter, I'm not surprised that they don’t look like every other college in the United States and they’re experiencing the same thing.

Erbe: What about these honor codes?

Gunlock: That’s really interesting and we’ve also seen examples of women who don’t want to report because they might think they’re in violation of the honor code.

Erbe: Well and they’ve been investigated. There are examples as we saw: Brigham Young

Gunlock: And I think what’s really interesting is sometimes the honor codes might give the college officials the idea that students are more well­behaved because they’re held accountable by these honor codes when it’s really a cultural question: Why in the world do honor codes not matter anymore? Why are kids so willing to sort of flaunt the rules. I mean this is a really serious issue. If you are going to think that these crimes are not going to happen because of an honor code, clearly honor codes do not hold the strength over these kids that they used to.

Erbe: But couldn't there at least be an exception in the honor code for women who are sexually assaulted on campus to be able to come forward and report with no penalties being enforced against them. Report a rape?

White: Absolutely. I mean I think this is about a culture. So yes, I believe in an honor code and but you do set up a situation where young people there's alcohol there, it's a messy situation. And because I have now engaged in an activity that I knew was against the honor code I am less likely to report a rape and that goes to the administration making it clear that if a crime is committed against you, you must report that and you must feel confident that we will investigate and prosecute it.

Erbe: I'm curious if anybody knows. Is rape any less common on religious campuses sexual assault than it is on nonreligious schools?

Matson: Yeah. I don't know those precise statistics but one thing that I want to bring into the discussion is you have, you know, layers of fraternal male­dominated cultures going on in these scandals at Baylor and also at Brigham Young. Not only do you have football culture, which we know through the NFL, I mean it's secular or religious there is huge problems with violence against women and violence and the cover­up and the profit motive and the greed, all of that.But on top of that you have this issue of religious fraternal cultures as well. Where you have the sort of male dominance mode, whether you have shaming of sexuality and what ultimately comes out of that again is the sense that there's people in power who abuse power and there’s people who don’t have power who get punished under these honor codes. So I think it's interesting to think about the way that these operate as a double­edged sword almost that women are being punished for under honor codes about human sexuality, which is normal thing. Are men getting punished under these so much? They’re not even getting punished for rape?

White: That’s not true. Well at Brigham Young there was a basketball, male basketball player who was punished because he had broken the code. So there are men do get punished for breaking the honor code. But I do think it goes to a culture and really allowing women to feel comfortable reporting a crime.

Norton: Well It looks like Baylor was worse than most universities because they brought on men who had been expelled from other universities precisely because of sexual offenses. So football was the honor code or the code that they wanted to follow.

Erbe: And after this, you know, this a watershed moment where we’re not going to see this anymore?

Norton: I don't see how. Ken Starr is demoted. I don’t think this is that moment.

Erbe: You do not think it's going to be easier for other schools to go after their football coaches? Nobody thinks that?

White: Too much money is involved. There's just too much money involved in making it happen and those football players they make it happen for those universities.

Erbe: Behind the headlines: A new wave of feminism? How celebrities, advertising, and media literacy are changing public perception of feminism.

Andi Zeisler: when people think about you know the first waves of feminism they think about women's suffrage they think about getting the vote. They think about you know women hunger striking in front of the white house and then when we think about feminism in the nineteen sixties and seventies // its often related to careers and wages and liberating women from this idea of what female people are supposed to do and supposed to care and supposed to value. 6:21 I definitely think as we have become a more mediated culture the //expression of feminism and the dissemination of feminism through pop culture and media has become more pronounced and //more interesting.// We're seeing //on TV// through pop stars //through advertising // and that's that happens to be the lens for this particular moment in feminism.

Erbe: Andi Zeisler’s We Were Feminist Once examines the rebranding of feminism. Zeisler believes through femvertising both women and men are exposed to a changing ideology that may have a negative impact to the movement if abused.

Zeisler: What I hope my book makes clear is that feminism is not a finite movement. It’s not a moment in time. It’s a really ongoing and constantly evolving project. So When we’re talking about this current cultural moment that we’re in, where everything is spoken of in this hyperbolic tone of oh this is the most feminist movie ever, this is the best feminist TV show ever what does it mean as it is no longer seen as a movement but a way to brand things as an identity. corporations are not in the business of social justice and they’re trying to sell us stuff.

Erbe: The buying and selling of feminist ideas is not a new concept. Corporations for decades, specifically marketed products to women for financial gain. From cigarettes to beauty products, Zeisler notes companies needed to use uplifting buzz words and imagery in order to gain consumer support.

Zeisler: We see people making ads for products, that really emphasizing you know you're not just buying a face lotion, you're not just buying an exercise plan you're buying empowerment 18:10 And so that becomes a very powerful way to sell things to women instead of using the sort of time­tested tactics of shame or insecurity to sell things .You know basically ideas well women will buy stuff if you don’t make them feel terrible about themselves.

Erbe: Zeisler argues though that type of advertising may be bring value and improve consumers’ self­images by entwining them with the products. On the other hand, using a political movement to boost sales harms feminism.

Zeisler: Last year when the movie Mad Max fury road came out, people got really excited because all of a sudden it was a movie about Mad Max, but it also had this very prominent female character and the movie itself was very much kind of an indictment of patriarchy. // it was the must­see feminist film of the decade //and it did offer a really great feminist reading but at the same time this movie is made within a system Hollywood // why couldn't a movie like this that was actually made by a woman, have the same reach or get the same funding. What are we what are we essentially saying when we say this is a feminist movie made within an incredibly un­feminist industry where women are paid less, promoted less, ignored, sidelined, etc.

Erbe: Zeisler says feminism isn’t as taboo as it once was. Celebrities now more than ever press form feminist ideals, from equal pay to owning and molding their own brands. It was Beyonce’s highly publicized 2014 MTV performance that some credit as the rebirth of the movement.

Zeisler: For a lot of young people// Beyonce was their first exposure to this concept of feminism because she’s also been able to make really nuanced powerful statements about how different women experience and need feminism differently. You know it’s not always the same for white women. It’s not always the same for women of color and so that is an incredibly important you know lens on feminism within pop culture.

Erbe: So Erin on the one hand we'll get in a moment to the femvertising issue and whether it’s good or bad for the movement. But I remember Rush Limbaugh calling somebody feminazi and feminist became like a label that young women were running from in droves. This was what, 20 or more years ago. So shouldn't feminists on the one hand be celebrating the fact that stars are using the Term to brand themselves?

Matson: Well sure. Feminism is hip right now. I mean there’s no question about that. That there is a hipness to feminism that didn’t exist, you know, at the time that Rush Limbaugh made those comments. Sorry, Rush. You lost that one. We’re going to win this whole thing. But I think at the same time, you know, what the author is bringing up is some really important points which is that feminism also has to mean something. Just a quick definition here.Feminism is an action agenda for the equality of all people with women and girls at the center. Right? And so that has to mean something. And so yes, I'm happy as a mom that I can buy my daughter A cheap shirt that says beauty and brains on it. That’s kind of that feminist light sort of marketing thing.That’s fine. I mean I think that’s good. But at the same time, feminism has to have some teeth to it. And so you can’t for example try to sell me this idea of A pro­life feminist. For example, this idea that we can restrict women’s rights and that’s feminist somehow. You know, that that’s ridiculous and so, so I think The author has some really interesting points.

Gunlock: Well I think, I think your last point about you can’t sell me A pro­life feminist is exactly why a lot of women don’t identify as feminists because they think a lot of mainstream feminists set certain rules. You have to talk a certain way, you have to believe a certain way and if you don't you can’t be in the club.I think, I think

Erbe: But what’s the difference between that and any other movement? pro­gun or you’re not pro­gun? You’re Republican or you’re a Democrat? You’re a progressive or conservative?

Gunlock: But you should be able to say you’re feminist, you’re for full equality. You’re an equality feminist. You want equality in the workplace, without having to agree with other feminists on other issues. You can think ­­

Erbe: But people do it all the time. And you should be able to say you’re a Democrat if you don’t want benefits, government benefits, for poor people.

Gunlock: But I think there are an awful lot of feminists, sort of mainstream feminists, like for instance the feminists that got up and stood with Hillary Clinton and said there’s A special place in Hell if you don’t support Hillary Clinton. They are, they are singling ­­

Erbe: They didn’t stand with her. They made those comments on their own, on their own, the two of them.

Gunlock: But the point is, is that but this was at a Hillary rally.Okay. And the point being that they’re signaling to women that there is a code, that if you want to be A feminist you have to believe in these certain things. This is why feminism is deeply unpopular. Most women do not identify as feminists.

Erbe: If it's so unpopular Why are companies using it to sell products? I mean they’re, they’re not going to espouse an, an unpopular cause?

Gunlock: Because It’s feminist light, it’s feminist light. It’s like hey you know, you talked about the t­shirt your daughter wore. I mean these are not hard concepts you know. Girl power and girl, girl ­­

Erbe: Beyonce is the most biggest selling popstar in the world it has branded herself a feminist.

Gunlock: And I refuse to think that Beyonce did anything for the feminist movement by gyrating on stage and then putting feminism in a big banner behind her.

Matson: Oh shut the front door! That was a watershed moment for feminism and on sort of the global stage.

Norton: Could I have a word here. Look, the marketplace does not take risks. And what we’re seeing here is something we never could have seen 20 years ago. When people were only talking about very serious issues. When the marketplace says it's been enough feminism, absorbed by men and women, so that we want to be a Part of this,it means that feminism or at least some parts of it, the less serious parts of it, the parts of it that say we’re all feminists now has won. So get ready for it.

Erbe: Last word.

White: I think that, I think that I agree that there is a code. I think that she brings up a great point about feminism doesn't mean all things to all people. It has been dictated very much by educated, upper middle class white women. And their dogma is not the same of that of an Asian woman, a Hispanic woman, or black woman. And so I'm excited about the idea that more perspectives of women will be included in this new definition of feminism.

Erbe: But you’re, I just want to get back for a second. You're attacking feminism because if you have to adopt an agenda. How does it make it any different from any other label you want to adopt?

Gunlock: Because feminism is not a party. It’s not a political party. it’s a belief in women's equality. And and and and there are many feminists who tell you you can’t be, you sort of can’t be in the club unless you believe in certain things.

Erbe: Alright. That's it for this edition. Please follow me on Twitter and visit our website, pbs­dot­org­slash­to­the­contrary. Whether you agree or think, To the Contrary, see you next week.

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Announcer: Funding For To The Contrary provided by the Oak Foundation, The Colcom Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff foundation. For a transcript or to see an online version of this episode of To The Contrary visit our website at peb