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Public Session PUBLIC SESSION MINUTES OF ORAL EVIDENCE taken before HIGH SPEED RAIL COMMITTEE On the HIGH SPEED RAIL (LONDON – WEST MIDLANDS) BILL Tuesday 30 November 2015 (Afternoon) In Committee Room 5 PRESENT: Mr Robert Syms (Chair) Mr Henry Bellingham Sir Peter Bottomley Mr David Crausby Mr Mark Hendrick _____________ IN ATTENDANCE Mr Timothy Mould QC, Lead Counsel, Department for Transport WITN ESSES Professor Andrew McNaughton, Technical Director, HS2 Ltd Ms Hero Granger-Taylor, Camden Civic Society Mr Colin Elliff, Camden Civic Society Mr Robert Latham Sir Ke ir Star me r Rt Hon Frank Dobson _____________ IN PUBLIC SESSION 1 INDEX Subject Page Update from the Promoter Presentation from Professor McNaughton 3 Professor McNaughton, questioned by Mr Elliff 13 Camden Civic Society Submissions by Ms Granger-Taylor 14 Evidence of Mr Elliff 16 Mr Elliff, cross-examined by Mr Mould 28 HS2 Euston Action Group Submissions by Mr Starmer 31 Submissions by Mr Latham 35 Submissions by Mr Dobson 43 Response from Mr Mould 50 Professor McNaughton, examined by Mr Mould 52 Professor McNaughton, cross-examined by Mr Dobson 59 Professor McNaughton, cross-examined by Mr Latham 62 2 (At 2.00 p.m.) 1. CHAIR: Order, order. Welcome to the HS2 Select Committee. We start with Camden today. Before we start, we have Professor McNaughton, who is going to update the Committee on some plans for Euston. Update from the Promote r 2. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you very much. I thought that it would be helpful to the Committee if, before you start to hear petitions about Euston, including the proposed alternatives to our scheme for Euston, Professor McNaughton just spend a few moments just running through the nature of the scheme and that is what this is principally designed to do. So, if we can put up please the next slide; P112792. Professor McNaughton, for those who don’t know – can I put it this way – you are the chief engineer for HS2? 3. PROFESSOR MCNAUGHTON: Yes. 4. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. Now, the purpose of HS2, we’ve drawn out one or two pertinent passages from the underlying policy documentation just to remind people of the legislative purpose which lies behind the HS2 Phase 1 Bill. And if you forgive me, I will read these out. ‘The new north south railway is a long-term solution to a long-te r m prob le m. The aim of the HS2 project is to deliver hugely enhanced capacity and connectivity between our major conurbations. And capacity will be freed up on the existing network, especially on the congested lines to the north of London, creating sufficient capacity for extra commuter and freight services.’ 5. Just help me with this; in relation to that last passage, which existing line principally, will be the beneficiary of that freed up capacity? 6. PROFESSOR MCNAUGHTON: In the first stage of High Speed 2, it will be the West Coast mainline, running up towards Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool, through Milton Keynes. In later stages, of course, it also relieves capacity at Kings Cross and out of St Pancras. 7. MR MOULD QC (DfT): Thank you. Are there any other points you want to make in relation to this slide before we move on to the next business? 3 8. PROFESSOR MCNAUGHTON: Now, if I can take it on from there please, by the time – in doing this short overview it is always in the context of what the purpose of High Speed 2 is. I won’t give you a long history lesson, because this is not the purpose. But we did not start with any particular pre-conception, or any pre-conception of where HS2 would serve in the London area. 9. Where we’ve come to it as being led by the evidence, and the evidence starts with demand, where people actually want to go to. This slide simply puts up a couple of statistics on the HS2 network running towards London. The first comment is a lot of people using HS2; it’s a quarter of a million a day. And the second is that both the modelling and origin and estimation work being done over the number of years we’ve been working, has shown that some 90% of those passengers are travelling specifically to or from central London, or through central London, because that’s the way they get on with journeys, through central London termini. 10. If I could have the next slide please, we started this voyage with seeking every poss ib le place that you might serve London from. We did that in conjunction with Transport for London, to pick up a number of parameters, one obviously is impact on a local area, another is the ability for passengers to get onto the London transport systems. And a third was actually where is there physical space. I would just perhaps mention in passing that if we’d been doing this job 30 years ago, there would have been a lot more opportunities before the railway lands around a number of terminals were sold off for commercial development. You may see from that that not only did we come up with ideas, and Transport for London, but actually members of the public wrote in with their ideas, and met us with ideas. And there is a great diversity of possible places. 11. Moving on, the process of getting to a proposal for Euston to be the terminus went through a series of progressively more detailed sifts. We started with those 27, and I would note in passing, not only the rich variety of places, but some of the ideals included beneath Trafalgar Square, or beneath the Thames, and we examined them all, to a certain degree. When we sifted out the ones, which were of little practicality, or where passengers would never actually make a journey onward from, we got to stage two, which was rapidly becoming focussed on connectivity with the existing transport networks. We are still with some quite interesting ideals, such us beneath a Royal park, or out indeed Old Oak Common, or Willesden Junction. 4 12. By stage three several of those schemes demanded building a completely underground terminal the size of several football pitches, which was not reasonably achievable. And even if it were, we’d create such subsidence on the surface as to render no building above it possible. So, by stage three it had rapidly come down to Euston, K ings Cross, in other words the north and Euston Road. 13. The last part of this slide shows that by the time the first decision was made by the then Secretary of State, his preferred decision had become Euston broadly alongside the existing railway and overlapping it, which I will come onto very quickly now, but included possibilities of creating a double-deck Euston or of creating a station in or around Kings Cross lands. The other solutions around St Pancras had fallen away because of their total impracticality or their impact on Somers Town and hospitals and other transport systems. So, by the end of 2009 the preference for Euston had become set, if we could move on. 14. That initial preference, by the then Secretary of State in 2009, was reviewed by a new Secretary of State in 2010 was then consulted, as part of the strategy for High Speed Rail in 2011, was confirmed by a third Secretary of State in 2012, and has since been supported by a fourth Secretary of State in 2013, so it as survived four Secretaries of State, moving on. That Euston destination, or Euston as a destination, when I said 90% of people using High Speed 2 sought or would prefer to use a central London terminus, Euston serves great parts of north, south and east London exceedingly well. But the density of use is very much towards the centre of London. That is not to say that there aren’t people using it to go as far afield as Margate or Brighton, or wherever. But the point is where people actually want to go to; Euston is well served to do so. 15. Part of the reason, next slide please, is the connections at Euston, through various underground lines, bus routes and a statistic which I sometimes find surprising, but which is reinforced by existing train operators, around 22% of people, long distance travellers who arrive at Euston, actually walk to their destination, it is that central. 16. Moving on. That is not to decry the value of Old Oak Common, the two are complimentary. Old Oak Common does several things, it serves the west of London and particularly access to Heathrow, this is the only time I’m mentioning Old Oak Common today, but it’s to set it in context. It does provide, through using Crossrail- 17. CHAIR: Can you point out exactly where it is? 5 18. PROFESSOR MCNAUGHTON: It is just here, thank you, just in there. So, because of Crossrail east west it is very helpful, for particularly business travellers travelling to Canary Wharf and the C ity of London, but if we were to zoom out further, along the Thames Valley as far as Reading, there are destinations where Old Oak Common is the natural changing point. 19. Because of the Crossrail connection, vitally it relieves the pressure on Euston, but it’s not a substitute for Euston. S ince this was developed there are, of course, other plans to build a regeneration site around the Old Oak Common, Park Royal area, but if I just recap for a moment, whilst 90% of our passengers are looking to use the centre of London, most of them will use Euston because that best serves where they actually want to go.
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