Charles Z. Smith Research by John Hughes, Lori Larson, Jewell Dunn & Dick Allen Transcripti on by Lori Larson Interviews by John Hughes October 31, 2008 Hughes: This is John Hughes with the Secretary of State’s Legacy Project at the Temple of Justi ce in Olympia with reti red Justi ce Charles Z. Smith, the fi rst ethnic minority to serve on the Washington Supreme Court. For starters, I want to ask you about ti tles: To my ear, the ti tle “justi ce” doesn’t resonate as much as “judge.” Do you object to being addressed as “judge” rather than “justi ce”? Smith: “Judge” is the generic word. And justi ce is subordinate to the generic “judge,” so all people who sit in judgment are called judges. In the state of Washington, Supreme Court Courtesy Josef Scaylea Photography justi ces were called “judge” for many years. Then there was a move to coordinate ti tles with the United States Supreme Court where the judges are called “justi ce.” So there was a move to convert our ti tle from “judge” to “justi ce.” I don’t know what year it was. But when I worked as a law clerk in 1955, the Supreme Court justi ces were called “judge.” I worked for Judge Matt hew W. Hill. In later years, I referred to him as Justi ce Matt hew W. Hill. Hughes: Is it any breach of decorum for me to call you judge? Smith: No, none at all. Hughes: What do you prefer to be called? Smith: My preference is to have no ti tle at all. … At the same ti me, it doesn’t matt er to me, John, whether you say “justi ce” or “judge.” Hughes: I’ve met you over the years at some Supreme Court recepti ons and the like, and I 2 had long read about your career. It’s such a pleasure to interview you. Smith: Well, the pleasure is mine. Hughes: Also, as a young reporter I interviewed Justi ce Hill, for whom you clerked. He was sent on a blue ribbon panel to try to solve the fi rst ever teachers’ strike in Washington State in Aberdeen, in 1972. And I found him to be extremely gentlemanly and wise. Meanti me, last night I watched for about the third or fourth ti me Ken Burns’ remarkable documentary about baseball, and in parti cular the segment about Jackie Robinson, and what he went through to break the color barrier in 1947 in Major League baseball. Were you a baseball fan back then? Smith: Nope. I’ve never been interested in sports, either observing or parti cipati ng. Hughes: Nevertheless, were you aware of that landmark occasion and what it represented? Smith: Well, living in the United States you become aware of whatever is happening that aff ects the life of the people, so having been born during a period of American apartheid, the idea of movement in society to change the system that discriminated against people because of who they were has always interested me. And back in the old days, because of the sociologists and the anthropologists and the historians, we thought of our American culture as being blacks and whites. And of course I knew that there were more people than blacks or whites because my Cuban father was not white, but he was not black. So I grew up thinking the world consisted of blacks, whites, Cubans and Cherokee Indians because on my mother’s side there were Cherokee Indians. All of that was part of my early beginning, so that when things happened they didn’t happen solely on the basis of black/white problems; they happened in terms of white versus non-white. The structure of society was based upon the illogical assumpti on that whites were superior to anybody else. You know, we get back to the conquest of Africa by the English, and the Holocaust in Germany and the idea that one person is bett er than somebody else because of where they were born, or who their ancestors were. For me it was always illogical. And so without even thinking about it, this sort of helped me to understand that this is a crazy world, and people make crazy assumpti ons, 3 and crazy decisions, and they aff ect people in so many diff erent ways. But at the same ti me, not being a white person myself, I never operated under any of these handicaps of personal disrespect for myself. I grew up thinking that I’m very bright, as I sti ll think I am. (Chuckling) Aft er 81 years, I sti ll think there are very few people who are brighter than I am. If you want to discriminate against me, that’s your problem and not mine. Hughes: Given that the electi on is just four days away, I have to begin by asking you about the state of racial relati ons in American in 2008, and especially about Senator Barack Obama, who General Colin Powell has just described as “a transformati onal fi gure.” There’s a new generati on coming onto the world stage and at a daunti ng ti me too. How do you view this? Smith: Not being identi fi ed with either the Republican Party or the Democrat Party, I have neutralized myself, and because of the Hatch Act and because of the judicial code of conduct I have chosen to remain neutral. As you may know, I used to be a commentator for KOMO. I decided to be neutral there so I could aff ord to be in favor of this person, be in favor of that person. For example, Secretary of State Sam Reed is a Republican. I absolutely adore him. And it makes absolutely no diff erence to me whether he’s Democrat or Republican. He’s Sam Reed the great person that he is. I happen to be in favor of Christi ne Gregoire. She happens to be a Democrat, but I don’t know Dino Rossi. Now, back to the nati onal scene: One of my favorite people in the world is General Colin Powell. I have the utmost respect for him. And when he was Secretary of State I had the privilege of being in meeti ngs with him where he was in charge, so I became very fond of him. When he decided to publically support Senator Obama I was impressed by the language that he used. He conveyed my thoughts about him – that here is a man who, without reference to the color of his skin, has the intelligence, has the drive, has the insight, has the vision to be a good president. And recognizing that Senator Obama is not a typical African-American in the United States — Hawaii birth is no big deal. My wife was born in Hawaii. So I used to kid her about not being a legal citi zen, and if I want to have a fi ght with her now, I say, “How long have you been in our country?” You know, it’s 53 4 years. But back to Obama: He is sort of a representati ve of the mixture of America. Hughes: I think he’s half Irish. Smith: His mother is white; his grandmother who absolutely adores him, and he adores her, is white. And his father is not an American black. At one ti me, his father was a brilliant man but later on went down the hill. But all of this is to say that ( Obama’s ancestry) is not unusual in the African-American resident culture, the standard resident culture. I could give you my white relati ves as well if I’d do the research, but I’m not interested in that. I admired and sti ll do admire Senator John McCain because of his service, parti cularly his incarcerati on as a prisoner of war, but I’ve never admired him because of other aspects of his life. He was a ne’re-do-gooder in the Naval Academy, and I understand his record in the naval air force is not the best in the world. Hughes: He was more of a wildcat than a maverick in those days. Smith: And so all of this sort of trounced my admirati on of him. Between him and Obama I would have to lean towards Obama. Part of my concern about John McCain is the fact that Sarah Palin is his vice-president. If John McCain becomes president and Sarah Palin becomes the vice-president I don’t know what I’m going to do. So, unfortunately, personality gets into it. And like you, I’m an observer of the passing scene and everything that goes on. I read newspapers; I watch television, someti mes listen to radio when I’m driving up and down the freeway. And so I know what is going on and I have responses and I have atti tudes. … But I think that the Republican system, and the spokespersons for Senator McCain or Governor Palin, and the people who write the speeches beat the drums of what I call racial hate. … So in the event Senator Obama wins, what’s going to happen to those persons who have been sti mulated into not accepti ng him? Hughes: Including some of the lunati c fringe out there, like these two young white supremacists they just arrested … Smith: So at any rate, those are my fears. Hughes: In 1992, at a conference on African-American male experiences, you urged black men to “Take pride in who you are and what you’re about.” And to not, “listen to the 5 voices who say, ‘You’re no good – you’re inferior.’ ” Do you think things are bett er today than they were 17 years ago when you said that? Smith: I’m not certain we have seen the emergence of persons of color – the blacks, the Lati nos, the Asians – into the mainstream society.