2948 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. APRIL 30,
Mr. EDEN. . I move that the gent,lemau be excused. Blair County, Pennsylvania, for the extension of the credit of the Mr. WRIGHT. Is that motion debatable? Government to aid in the completion of the Texas Pacific Railroad The SPEAKER pro tmnpore. It is not. to the Committee on the Pacific Railroad. The mot-ion of Mr. EDEN was agreed to. By Mr. COX, of Ohio: The petition of citizens of Toledo, Ohio, Mr. WRIGHT. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. and vicinity, against the pa-ssage of the bill (H. R. No. 3689) on the The SPEAKER pro temp
BANKRUPT-LAW REPEAL. very meritorious-actions which no donut the Senator meant to save, The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore ]aid before the Senate the amend as I did, when we voted together for the bill with the saving clause, ments of the House of Representatives to the bill (S. No. 35) to and especially actions and rights of actions which have accrued to repeal the bankrupt law; which were read. assignees in bankruptcy. _ Mr. MERRIMON. I move that the amendments be referred t{) the The Senator from Georgia will see that neither he nor I would be Committee on the Judiciary. content to pass an act productive of an effect, particularly such an Mr. BECK. On that motion I shall call for the yeas and nays. I effect, not intended by us or by anybody when the votes were given. object to the amendments goingtothecommittee. I think we ought It is true we might amend here in the Senate; and I know the Sen to pass the bill now as it came from the House. ator from Michigan [Mr. CHRISTIANCY] has prepared an amendment Mr. MERRIMON. There are various questions which I think ought for the purpose to which I refer, which amendment ha~ not been to be seriously considered before the amendments of the House are printed. We could hear it read from the Clerk's desk, and very likely concurred in. we might be able to make the bill exactly" what we would have it. Mr. BECK. The amendments do not change the character of the Bot still as committees in this body mary report at any hour of any bill at all. day, I am strong1y inclined to think that it would be more prudential Mr. CHRISTIANCY. I hope the bill will not be again referred to to let this bill go to a committee and let this needed amendment be the Committee on the Judiciary. I do not know of any Senator de read and revised in committee and then come here. siring the paBSage of the bill who wishes it so referred. The first I say in conclusion that I should feel, a~ one rnem ber of the Senate, amendment is one which I presume will meet the immediate concur rather mortified if it should occur a second time on this same bill that rence of the Senate, and to the second amendment I propose to offer the Senate fell into an error. We did fall into an error in the first an amendment. I hope, therefore, the motion for a reference will be instance in the repealin~ clause; and now if after our attention being voted down. called to this error, owmg to the hasty mode of action in genera!< Mr. BUTLER. I ask that the amendments of the House be re Senate in place of going to a committee, we should again commit a ported. blunder I thiik the Senator from Georgia, quite as much as I, would The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The amendments will be again be annoyed at the repetition of such an occurrence. read. Mr. RILL. I suppose that under the operation of the saving clause, The CHIEF CLERK. The first amendment is, in line 2 of the bill, to which the Senator from New York refers, no proceedings in bank after the word " sixty-seven," to insert "title 61 Revised Statutes ruptcy institnted previous to the passage of this act will be in any and an act entitled 'An act to amend and supplement au act entitlea1 respect affected by its pa~sage. If, as the Senator from New York "An act to establish a uniform system of bankruptcy throughout the suggests, able jurists in the United States have doubts as to whether United States," approved March 2, 1867,' and for other purposes," that saving clanse is sufficient, I concur with him that we ought to approved June 22, 187~. be certain upon that subject. I agree with him that if we should The secoml amendment is, in line 8 of the bill, after the word make a mistake and by defective phraseology not accomplish what " therein," to insert " and all penal actions or criminal proceedings it is the manifest desire and purpose of the Senate should be accom arising thereunder." plished, I should regret it. I concede too that a few days' delay will So that the bill of the Senate, as proposed to be amended by the make no difference. I cannot see myself any necesijity for haste. If House, would read: there is any real necessity why the bill should be referred, I have no objection to a reference. I imagined there was none; but if there be That the bankrupt law approved March 2, 1867, title 61, Revised Statutes, and a real reason, as the Senator from New York suggests-and I think the act entitled "An act to amend and supplement an act entitled • An act to estab lish a uniform system of ba.nkruproy throujZhout the United States,' approved the suggestion is wise-! can see in the public interest no neeessit.v March 2, 1867, and for other purposes," approved June 22, 1874, and all acts in for hurrying the bill through to-day. After his suggestion, which amendment or supplementary thereto or in explanation thereof be, and the same had not occurred to me, of which I was not aware, and to avoid all are hereby, repealed: Provided., however, That such repeal shall in no manner inval possibility of mistake, I think it reasonable that the bill should be idate or aft'ect an;v case in bankruptcy institnted and pending in any court prior to tho U.ay when th1s act shall take efft>ct; but as to all such pending cases and all referred as the Senator from New York suggests. future pl'()('.eeGmgs therein, and all penal actions or criminal proceedin~s arisin~ Mr. BECK. Mr. President, I opposed the reference of the bill and thereunder, the acts hereby repealed shall continue in full force and effect, until called for the yeas and nays upon the question on the ground that if tho same shall be fully disposed of, in the same manner as if said acts had not been repealed. there was any good to be accomplished by the passage of the bill, the sooner it is pa.ssed. the better. I have information from large num Mr. CHRISTIANCY. As the question is now on the motion :for bers of persons all over the country which shows the importance of reference, I suppose an amendment to the amendments of the House immediate action upon the bill. I bold a letter in my hand now, in would not be in order until that question is disposed of. which I am ad vised by lawyers of prominence that men are filing peti Mr. MERRIMON. I beg to inquire of the Chair whether the bill tions hour by hour, and all sorts of frandulent schemes are being con came from the Hoose this morning. cocted to get into bankruptcy before the bill is passed, and that every The PRESIDENT p1·o tempo1·e. It came yesterday. days' delay adds to the mischief that results from the discuBSion of Mr. MERRIMON. And was read yesterday f this question. The letter which I have suggests that every day of The PRESIDENT pro tempore. I.t came yesterday and was sub- delay costs the commercial interests of the country millions of dollars. mitted this morning. . Everything has been already suggested and debated in both Houses, Mr. MERRIMON. I object, then, to its present consideration. and there is nothing which can be done by the Committee on the Mr. INGALLS. Does the Chair hold that the bill cannot be dis- Judiciary which cannot be done as well in open Senate now. If any cussed on the motion to refer Y Senator here should suggest a needed amendment it would pass the The PRESIDENT pro t.empore. The Chair does not. Senate and the Honse could concur in it by to-morrow. I know how Mr. INGALLS. So I understood. it is when such matters are referred. This bill was held by the Com Mr. MERRIMON. I suppose that my objection, as the bill was only mittee on the Judiciary from the time my colleague introduced it for laid before the Senate this morning, carries it over. three or four months. I know other committet:s receive matters of Mr. CHRISTIANCY. I suppose not. importance and hold them for months b~fore a report is made. The PRESIDENT p?'O temp&re. The bill is properly before the Sen Mr. RILL. If my friend will allow me, I nnderstand the Commit ate. The objection is too late. The question is on referring the amend tee on the Judiciary are favorable to this bill. They reported the ments to the bill to the Committee on the Judiciary, which is open to original repealing bill, and there is no probability that it will be de discuBSion. layed in committee. Mr. BECK. On that question I call for the yeas and nays. . Mr. BECK. I do not find any fault with the committee, but there The yeas and nays were ordered. is nothing which the Committee on the Judiciary can now suggest Mr. HILL. I will only say that I hope this bill wi11 not be referred. by way of amendment which bas not already been suggested, or, if It seems to me that the amendments of the House make no real not, let it be suggested now in open Senate and let us pass upon the change, and are simply to perfect the bill more thoroughly than it was question to-day. I know delay is possible in committee, and I know supposed was done by the original bill. Therefore I can see no neces the mischief that would follow any delay. Therefore, I shall insist sity for a reference. on the yea~ and nays. Mr. CONKLING. Will the Senator let me make an inquiry f What Mr. CHRISTIANCY. I wish to explain what the additional amend objection occurs to him to referring the bill tsa the committee? ment is which I propose to add to the second House amendment, and Mr. HILL. Simp1y because I do not understand that there is any if·any Senator ean find anything else that onght to be inserted I can thing in the amendments which requires the review of a committee. see some reason why perhaps it may be required to be sent ba.ck to The amendments proposed by the Rouse are simple; they are formal the committee. I ask the Clerk to read the last amendment to the amendments. . bill as it came from the House. Mr. CONKLING. If it would not interrupt the Senat{)r, I could The CHIEF CLERK. In line 8 of the bill, after the word "therein," make in a moment a statement of fa.ct to him which I think would it is proposed to insert: modify his opinion in that regard. The amendments made by the House, I agree with the Senator, are not such as to require review in And all penal:wtions or criminal proceedings arising thereunder. committee; but many persons, lawyers and judges in the country, Mr. CHRISTI.ANCY. The amendment which I propose is to insert are disturbed by a belief, which has been announced to me a good before that amendment the following words: many times in telegrams and at other times by letter, that the saving And all rights and proceedinfas incident thereto, or growin~ ~t of or dependent clause of the bill as it passed the Senate and as it comes back now thereon, including all rights o and suits by and against assignees under any of from the House is too narrow to save certain classes of actions deemed said acts. 2950 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. APRIL 30,
Then would fo11ow the words of the amendment just read by the by the House seems in my opinion to render that further amendment Clerk, so as to read: necessary. Mr. ll~GALLS. Then I think that very plainly this matter ought But as to all such pending cases and all future proceedings therein, and all rights and prpceediugs incident thereto, or growing out of or dependent thereon, includ to go to the committee, and I shall vote to refer it. ing all rightsofanu suits by- and against assignees underanyofsaidacts, and all penal Mr. McMILLAN. Mr. President, I think the facts stated by the actions or criminal proceedinj!s arising thereunder, tho acts hereby repealed shall Senat-Or from Kentucky and the applications for discharge under the continue in full force and effect until the same shall be fully disposed of, in the same manner as if said acts had not been repealed. existing bankrupt law show very clearly that there is a great neces sity for the existence of such a law in this country. I believe with It is difficult for me to conceive what can be saved beyond what the Senator from Illinois who sits before me [Mr. DAVIS] that a great this language will save. My own opinion is that the original saving nation of this character cannot get along for any extensive period of clause was sufficient to cover the entire case by general language. time without some general system of bankruptcy, and I believe that I had supposed that when an enactment was made a.s to a principal this reference to the Judiciary Committee at this time is one alto thing, the incidents followed without enumeration ; but as the House gether proper, for the matter is so involved that, although the Sena by its amendment has enumerated some things, in order to prevent tor from .Michigan can see his way clearly, yet other members of the the implication that others are excluded by that enumeration, I shall Senate have not had the time or opportunity to examine the amend offer the amendment which I have suggested. ments of the House so as to be able to come to his conclusion. I Mr. INGALLS. In my judgment, the clamor for the repeal of the think it would be imprudent to pass an amendment of this kind or bankrupt law comes nom the creditors in this country, and notfrom to adopt this repeal without the matter being very fully examined. the debtors. A well-regulated bankrupt law is the only thing to-day Already we -see that there have been imperfections, in the view of that stands between a very large class of the mercantile and trading the House of Representatives, in the bill repealing the act as reported people in this country and absolute destruction. Since the action of in the Senate. I trust that for this purpose this bill will be referred the Senate upon this measure a few days ago, the records of the to the Senate Judiciary Committee; and my own desire would be c'--.urts in every commercial community in the country will bear me gratified if the Judiciary Committee could report a bill which would out in the statement that it is the only refuge to which men are look rdieve the existing law from all its objections, as I believe they can ing for escape from graflping and avaricious creditors, and that if be removed, the defects existing more in the administration than in this measure of repeal is consummated we are going to have a the law. If the Judiciary Committee can report a substitute for the period of distress and of commercial ruin which, in my judgment, ha.s existing law, it seems to me it would meet the wants of the country not heretofore been paralleled. I passed through Chicago the other and that the business community would find relief from it. day and talked with some gentlemen there who are in the legal pro Mr. DAWES. Mr. President, if the bankmpt law is repealed we fession, and they told me that the rush of unfortunate debtors into shall go on until some commercial revolution shall find the debtor the bankrupt courts at the present tim~, in anticipation of the repeal, class of the country so burdened with its load that it will cry out and was something without precedent in the history of that part of the compel Con~ress in some unconsidered and hasty measure to adopt a country. new bill whiCh for awhile will continue until its imperfections and It is the creditors who are demanding this repeal for the purpose of its burden and injustice shall work its repeal, as they have worked enabling them to enforce terms with their debtors. The debtors want the repeal of this law. a bankrupt law; and it is an anomaly in civilization that a great A commercial nation cannot live without a bankrupt law in some commercial country like ours, with its thousands of millions of com way or other. A periodic and spa-smodic bankrupt law is of the worst merce, should remit to the conflicting decisions of State Insolvent possible character in commercial transactions, and it is so to the courts the question whether or not a debtor shall be relieved from the debtor and the creditor classes throughout the country. It is a great payment of his debts upon the surrender of all his assets. If we repeal pity, sir, that we cannot frame a law which shall stand the test of this law and provide no substitute for it, the result will be that every the necessities of a commercial community like ours. Nothing sur / debtor will be forever at the mercy of his creditors, because under a prises me so much a-s the current of public opinion at this time upon / State insolvent law there can be nothing that will save a man from th~ subject. The repeal of this bankrupt law, impE>rfect aa it is, is / the enforcement of subsequent judgments against him. throwing the debtor class of this country, aa the Senator from Kansas Now, sir, I have been accustomed heretofore to believe in the infal says, at the mercy of the creditor class. We have heard a great deal libility of the Jq.diciary Committee of this body. I believed that, this winter in behalf of the debtor class of this country and we hn.ve next to the Pope, they have claimed and exercised a greater infalli heard much outcry and condemnation of the creditor class; and there ' bility than any other body perhaps in this conn try; and yet here in have been times when the debates in this body and in the other seemed a matter confessedly of the laat importance, a bill upon which they to take a sectional view, and section has been aiTayed against section have reflected for months, which has been digested and redigested in the interest of the debtor class against the creditor class. If the comes back here from the House with the statement that it is entirely cry for the repeal of the bankrupt law had come from the East in ineffectual to caiTy out the wishes of that committee. Well, sir, my stead of from the West, I should have expected to hear it said on the confidence is at least somewhat impaired. If the Judiciary Committee part of the great debtor class of the West to the East that this wa-s but were unable to report a simple measure of repeal and these amend another of those measures in the interest of the creditor for the pur ments come back from the House, is it not just that we should simply pose of holding in a tighter grasp the debtors of this country; and I refer this matter back to them again for consideration in order that do not think, had it so originated, it would have been carried through we may at last have their deliberate judgment as to what will be a this body or the other in the manner in which it has been. repeal of this law f Mr. DAVIS, of Illinois. Will the Senator from Massachusetts tell Mr. THURMAN. Would it not be better to send it to some other me what State in the· West haa petitioned strongly for the repeal of committee! the bankrupt law f The Senator from Michigan and some others may Mr. INGALLS. Well, I think it would. [Laughter.] I have no have done it. Illinois has not done it. I recollect the Senator from don bt it would be. I think, as the Senator from Indiana [Mr. McDoN New York presented a great many petitions at the commencement of ALD] suggests to me, it might be better to send it to the Committee the session for the repeal of the bankrupt law, but I am unaware of on Pensions. I am very confident we could report a bill that would many from the West who have clone it. repeal the bankrupt law; but inasmuch as this is a bill that has been Mr. DAWES. The sentiment bas been stronger in the western part amended by the House, and as the Senator from Michigan confesses of the conn try. I do not speak of it in a reproachful sense; I do not that the amendment is necessary and proposes still further to amend desire to say anything that would be unkind toward the western part the amendment of the House, I am inclined to think that we ought of the conn try in these remarks, but I have had the belief that there at least to give it some further deliberation. · . was a much stronger sentiment for the repeal of the bankrupt law in Mr. CHRISTIANCY. Will the Senator allow me to say that I have the West and the South tha.n in the East, and it has amazed me confessed nothing of that kind T I say the amendment made by the always because I recognize the fact that there are a great many debtors House having gone into particulars I shall propose this amendment to the East in the West and in the South. I have felt that there was to it, because otherwise there might be an implication that we having a disposition in some quarters to keep that fact before the public in enumerated some particulars excluded others. a manner to excite unpleasant feeling. I do not think this is any part Mr. INGALLS. Does the Senator from Michigan believe that the of it; and I only speak of it aa a matter of surprise to me that this amendments that have been reported here from the Honse are neces measure, which can have no other effect than to put the debtor in sary and essential Y the power of the creditor, should have its origin where I supposed Mr. CHRISTIANCY. I believe they are very proper amendments, least of all it would be likely to h:tve that origin. That is why I but I do not believe either one of them necessary. alluded to it; and I think it is true now that public sentiment in the Mr. INGALLS. Why were they not put in the bill reported from East, being more commercial than the West, is stronger in favor of onr Judiciary Committee Y . some bankrupt law than it is in the West. Nevertheless, it is true :Mr. CHRISTIANCY. Because I did not believe them necessary. that those who favor the repeal of this law without some sort of Mr. INGALLS. Then if these amendments are not necessary, if substitute for it by which the unfortunate debtor, when he is below the original bill is sufficient, why does the Senator not move to non the water and unable to meet his debts and is willing to surrender concur! everything he has, is still held by his creditors under until he ceaaes Mr. CHRISTIANCY. Because, although not necessary, the amend to breathe, put him in that position in which he will be placed the ments are very proper. moment this law is repealed. I submit to Senators that it were better Mr. INGALLS. And yet the Senator from l\1ichigan proposes to for us to take more time and to take it when there is less neces•lity amend one of them that is not proper. for such a law than in the very ja.ws of a commercial convulsion. All Mr. CHRISTIANCY:. Certainly. The amendment already made the bankrupt laws that have been passed in this country have been .
1878. CONG·RESSIONAL REUORD.=:SENATE. 2951.
passed when least we have had time or patience or calm consideration are honestly entertained. When I was a young man I had some doubt to provide the necessary safeguards to preserve as a permanent sys upon that subject; but as I grow older, I have not any doubt about tem a. bankrupt measure. But now this law has had ten years or it at all. ' more of existence. Its defects are manifest; the remedy, it seems to But, sir, if this law is to be repealed, why the haste to do it to-day ! me, can be applied; and out of it all can come a moderate, wise, just, Why the great haste for itT The only object of doing it to-day is to and beneficent law that will be alike beneficial to the debtor and to cut off some few poor people who have not got their papers ready the creditor; for, after all, in the long run, it is of no benefit to the to file before the proper officers. That is all. Although I am opposed creditor to set a watch upon the debtor wherever he may be, and be to the repeal, and earnestly opposed to it, believing that this country, ready to spring upon him that he may be the first to seize what little commercial nation as it is, should have a bankrupt law constantly in he has, with no ability on the part of the debt-or or a more patient cred existence, yet I really think that this bill as it now is should be re itor to share, share and share alike, with all creditors in the proceeds ferred to the Judiciary Committee to see whether if the law is to be of an estate which the debtor is ready to surrender to his creditors repealed every saving has been incorporated into it that should be and asks only that he may have a further opportunity to live and incorporated. I hope every gentleman who hears me will believe me labor and strive. when. I say that I should devote every attention to that subject and That is the issue which is raised by this bill to repeal the bankrupt that I have no disposition to keep the bill in the committee with a law, without any substitute for it whatever; and tha1i is the result view of changing the sentiment of. the Senate upon the subject, be which is as sure to follow, and by and by the debtor will come to see cause I suppose that has been sufficiently marked already, the vote H, and the burden will be so great upon him, that he will force upon on the subject was so decided. Congress a new considemtion of this subject. I only hope it will be But, sir, the Senator from Kansas has spoken about the haste with at a time when the circumstances and the pressure of business and which this was done in the Judiciary Committee, and said that the of the commercial world will not be such that an inconsiderate and J ndiciary Committee should have seen that the provisions were prop unwise measure may again pass Congress so unwise that it cannot erly made. Well, sir, for one I can simply say that I cared nothing live as a permanent system. about it; as I ·saw that the law was to .be repealed I cared very little Mr. DAVIS, of illinois. Mr. President, if I could say anything that about the details of the bill, and did not give any attention to them, • would arrest the repeal of this law I would gladly say it, for I think and I presume almost every other· gentleman of the committee will it is a great mistake as well as a great wrong. There cannot be a say the same thing. But there seems to be a difference of opinion in member of the Senate that does not concede the principle upon which the House upon what it was intended to effect by this bill, and I can the bankrupt law is based. Itisto allow every unfortunate debtor who not see any rea-son why it should not be referred to the Judiciary is unable to pay his debts to be discharged upon the surrender of his Committee, and why the delay of two or three days can make any property; and also to allow the creditor to put into bankruptcy every difference. dishonest debtor who is secreting his property and is unwilling that Mr. BECK. Mr. President, I rose in the :first instance to oppose the it should be given toward the payment of his debts. Can there be reference of this bill to the Jndiciary Committee because I supposed any Senator on this floor who does not willingly accede to the justice it had gone so far after its passage by the Senate by such a majority of this principle f as it did, and after its passage by the House by such a majority as it This is the basis upon which the bankrupt ]aw is framed. To re did, that the repeal in some form was a foregone conclusion, and the peal it now without leaving anything in its stead, is to leave, as I Senator from Illinois has very properly said that he thinks so, and believe with the Senator from Kansas, the ~reat mass of unfortunate any amendment that may now be suggested to perfect it may be done debtors to the mercy of their creditors. Why repeal this bill now in in open Senate just as well as in the Judiciary Committee. I am hard times when we have not yet got from under the great business more than ever convinced, after what ha-s been said by the Senator depression caused by the revulsion of 1873 T Thousands of men in from Massachusetts [Mr. DAWESl and the Senator from Illinois, [Mr. this country unwilling to acknowledge that they were unable to pay DAVIS,] that a reference of this bill totheJndiciaryCommittee means their debts have by extensions of time and by struggles endeavored that we shall see it no more in the Senate at this session. to advance their interests so as to ultimately be able to pay their I am not opposed to a well-1·egulated bankrupt law if such is pre debts. One by one is falling by the wayside. The feeling is honorable sented, and I think the Committee on the Judiciary could frame a far that prompted them to the course of endeavoring so to conduct their better law unembarrassed by the provisions of the existing law after affairs that they could pay their debts. They are unable to do it. It the repeal of the present one than they could by any effort ·to patch would have been much better that-they should not have made those it up, or seek to make it available for the purposes which the coun extensions and endeavored to manage their affairs themselves so as try may desire. to be able to pay their creditors, but they did it honestly; they did it The Senator from illinois has said that the law is too expensive. from a proper motive; and are these persons to be left out nowf Not only is that true, but in very many cases the assets are divided 'Vhen we know that thousands of men have already taken the benefit among the officers and retainers of the bankrupt courts. The law of the law, are these persons to be left out f has been perverted in every form so that fraudulent debtors fre Why, sir, since this repeal bill was passed in the Senate, as the quently manage to get in debt for the very purpose of escaping the Senator from Kansas said, in every commercial community there has payment of their obligations and becoming bankrupts. The machin been a rush to get the benefit of the present law, such as was never ery of this law is in such a shape now that any effort to patch it up heard of before in this country; ,and does not that argue that there would be a failure. The idea that the Judiciary Committee shall are plenty behind f I have received letters and telegrams without take the bill back to patch it up and run in the old ruts, with the old number urging for God's sake to give them time to prepare their machinery, a-ccording to the old precedents, is folly; it can do noth papers; if there was to be a repeal of the bankrupt law they would ing but the grossest injustice and will still continue to divide assets yield at once, and make no further effort to fix their affairs so that of debtors among a few officers. I hope it will never go to that or they could ultimately pay their debts, because if they could not do any other committee. Let us act on it now. The Senator from illi that then they knew the bankrupt law was before them, by which nois can to-day prepare a bill, introduce it in the morning, and refer 'they could get relief. You take from them all hope of relief. it to his own committee and report it back the next day if he pleases, Mr. President, as the Senator from Kansas said, the clamor in rela unembarrassed by any of the bad features of the existing law and its tion to the repeal of this law does not grow out of the principle of amendment. He may be able to present something that will prevent this law itself. The people of this country concede, and have con the oppression of men who are honestly in debt and perhaps ought to · ceded that in the various laws which have been passed on this subject. be released. That will be a great deal easier than to attempt now, It is simply that the administration of it has not been in accordance after this bill has passed through both Houses, to have it taken again with public sentiment. That much I concede willingly. The law is into committee to be patched up or to be kept away because they do too expensive in its administration, it is too cumbrous; bntit can be not want the law repealed at all. I think we had better begin de simplified, it can be made less expensive. Time and experience have novo on a bankrupt law with all the experience the country has had shown in what respect it should be amended. The Judiciary Com so as to avoid the errors into which legislation has heretofore fallen, mittee can prepare a bill which I believe will satisfy the Senate and avoid the abuses of the present law and its amendments, instead of satisfy the .country. Why should they not have an opportunity to attempting to pa.tch it up now after the repeal bill has been perempt do soT It is true they had this bill before them for a long time, and orily ordered by the House and Senate. did not very soon report to the Senate upon the subject. The reason Mr. ALLISON. Mr. President, after what has been said by Sen they did not report it sooner was that there was a disagreement in ators with reference to this law, I think we ought to test the sense of opinion upon the question of whether the law should be repealed or the Senate in regard to the contipued existence of a bankrupt law. not. I was always opposed to its repeal, and had by corresp~ndence I am clear that it is not to the interest of this people to have the law with different judges throughout the country got their various su~ repealed absolutely at this time, and I believe that is the judgment gestions in relation to the modification and amendment of it; but 1t of the Senate upon the subject; but a-s has been stated by the Sen was useless to embody those in the form of a bill when it was too ator from illinois, who seems to have had some charge of this bill, t.he evident, from what had been said in the Senate and from what was Judiciary Committee were divided in sentiment with reference to the opinion of the Judiciary Committee, that the law itself would be the propriety of repeal, and also were laboring under the impression repealed. that the Senate was opposed to a further continuance of the law, and Now, Mr. President, I have no hope of arresting the repeal of the therefore no effort was made by the committee to amend the law so law and do not say what I have said in any sense to cast censure on as to make it more effectual and more acceptable to both creditor and any gentleman who differs with me upon this subject. I have charity debtor. I have faith that the Judiciary Committee of this body can enough, I think, as I grow older, to believe that differences of opinion so amend the law as to make it a satisfactory one upon the statu, t~~
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l 2952 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. APRIL 30,
book, and I believe that it is no time now to repeal this law and sion of this question we can do much better by disposing of it be trust to the Senat.e and the House or to some future Senate and House fore we take up anything else except the conference report and to enact a new law. morning business. · We have been told over and over again in this Chamber and else Mr. SARGENT. If there is no objection to the course I have sug where that the process the people of this country are undergoing gested, the Calendar may be laid aside informally. now is a grinding process which will result in universal bankruptcy. Mr. VOORHEES. When I spoke of allowing half an hour I simply · How often have we heard on this floor during this very session that meant t.o extend the morning hour until the morning business should the steps which are being taken by the Government to resume specie be transacted. payment are to result in Jan nary next in universal bankruptcy unless Mr. HILL. Then, I suppose the :.understanding will be that as soon that process is arrested by legislation f Now, in the face of that, are as the morning business is transacted we shall return to the bill now we to place it beyond the power of the debtor class to protect them before the Senate. selves by an honest surrender of their property to their creditors f It Several SENATORS. Certainly. seems to me that whatever may be proper in the future, it is wise to The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Is that the understanding, that the allow this law to stand at least another year on our statute-pooks Calendar be temporarily laid aside T until these experiments, whatever they may be, whether of bank Mr. ANTHONY. Informally. ruptcy or prosperity, shall have developed themselves. The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. Informally, for the purpose of pros Mr. President, I desire for one to test the sense of the Senate with ecuting morning business; and when that is concluded the bankrupt reference to the propriety of making amendments to this law; and I bill to be resumed. offer the following amendment to the motion to refer to the Judiciary Mr. MATTHEWS. And I have the floor on that, I believe. Committee: The PRESIDENT pro telnpore. The Senator from Ohio has thf) That said bill and amendments be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary, floor on that question. The Chair hears no objection to that course with instructions to report such amendments as will relieve the existing law of being pursued. the defects which experience has disclosed. CREDENTIALS. Mr. MATTHEWS. Mr. President, I very much hope that the Senate will reconsider its action recently taken in the final vote on the pas :Mr. KIRKWOOD preRented the credentials of Hon. WrLLLUI B. sage of the bill now lj8turned to us from the House of Representatives, ALLISON, chosen by the Legislature of Iowa a Senator from that State so far at least as to consent to the reference of the bill, with the for the term beginning March 4, 1879; which were read, and ordered amendments, to the Committee on the Judiciary, with the hope and in to be filed. · the trust that before we wipe that statute entirely from the statute PETITIONS AND MEMORIALS. book another effort may be made by that committee to present to Mr. SARGENT presented three petitions of citizens of San Fran Congress a measure in substitution of the existing law which shall cisco, California, prayffi:~ for the passage of such laws as will enable be better than the provisions of the existing law or their entire repeal; the Southern Pacific Railroad Company to extend its road east from for I am satisfied now more than ever that the real path of true and the Colorado River at Fort Y~ through Arizona and New .Mexico, wise legislation is between these two extremes, the via 'media which and until an eastern connection is made with the Gulf of Mexico ; shall seek on the one hand to meet all the just objections which can which were referred to the Committee on Railroads. be arrayed against the existing provisions of the Jaw and which shall Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia, presented the petition of Mrs. Mary not on the other hand by its complete and unconditional repeal remit Nee, widow of Thomas Nee, deceased, late private in the Sixth Reg the country to that chaos of varying and inconsistent State legisla iment of West Virginia Volunteer Infantry, praying for a pension; tion on insolvents and .j..nsolvent laws which will be necessarily the which was referred to the Committee on Pensions. substitute for our present bankruptcy system. Mr. WALLACE presented a memorial of the Chamber of Commerce I do not despair, Mr. President, that the wisdom of this body and of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in favor of the passage of a bill to aid of the other branch of Congress is equal to the occasion and can pro in the construction of the Texas and Pa-cific Railroad; which was vide for the emergency. Certainly there is no such inherent diffi referred to the Committee on Railroads. culty in the subject as that we should regard it as insurmountable, He also presented the memorial of Council No.4, Order of United particularly in view of the experience which since 1867 we have actu American Mechanics of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; the memorial of ally gone through with under the present existing statute. Gentle Council No. 249, Order of United American Mechanics of Lehighton, men point out with great readiness, and with great clearness, and Pennsylvania; and the memorial of Council No. 132, Order of United with great force, the objections to that system. But I do not under:. American Mechanics of Boiling Springs, Pennsylvania, remonstrat Rtand that any of those objections go to the principle which is essen ing against any tariff legislation in the present depressed condition tial to the idea of a bankrupt law. Is there any Senator who believes· of the country; which were t·eferred to the Committee on Finance. that an honest debtor unfortunate in contracting obligations beyond Mr. McPHERSON presented the memorial of Council No. 21, Order his ability to pay, who freely surrenders all his property for equal of United States Mechanics. of Salem, New Jersey, remonstrating distribution among all his creditors, ought to be visited with the ex against any change in the present tariff system; which was referred treme penalty of being obliged to labor for the rest of his life, not to the Committee on Finance. merely for his wife and children, but for those who still hold him in He also presented the memorial of the Norfolk and New Brunswick chains as their debtor! Is there any Senator who believes that a dis Hosiery Company, of New Brunswick, New Jersey, and others, remon honest debtor who has gone on from day to day, and from week to strating against any legislation affecting the duties upon imports week, and month to month, and year to year, it ma.y be, fraudulently which is not based upon a thorough preliminary investigation of de contracting obligations which he never intended to pay, or fraudu tails, and in favor of such investigation; which was referred to the lently disposing of property which he sought to conceal from his Committee on Finance. creditors, ought not by some exigent, summary, and painful process, Mr. KIRKWOOD presente(l the petition of John Edwards, of Ar be brought to book in order that he may render an account and settle kansas, praying for the passage of a law placing him on the retired with his creditors under the eye and by force of the law, so that he list of the Army with the rank of brigadier-general; which was may mete out to his creditors that which he unjustly withholds f referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. The morning hour has expired. :Mr. INGALLS presented the petition of Mrs. Carrie E. Anderson, Mr. McCREERY. I move to postpone the pending and all prior of Shawnee County, Kansas, praying for a pension; which was orders until the bill before the Senate is disposed of. . referred to the Committee on Pensions. ~ The PRESIDENT pro ternpm·e. Is there objection f Mr. BRUCE presented the petition of Adeline Shirley, of Warren Mr. SARGENT. I object. That is to say, I have no objection to County, Mississippi, praying compensation for property taken near taking this. up a little later. I think we ought .to have an oppor Vicksburgh, in 18ti3, by the military authorities of the United States tunity to do some morning business, which we have not bad this morn for the use of the Army; which was referred to the Committee on ing; and I wish to present a report of a commit.tee of conference also. Claims. That necessary business being done, I shall then have no objection Mr. CAMERON, of Pennsylvania, presented five memorials of cer to going on with this measure. tain mechanical associations of Philadelphia, Lancaster, Cumberland, The PRESIDENT pro tempore. According to the order of the Senate, and Lehigh Cqunties, Pennsylvania, remonstrating against the pas the morning boor having expired, the Calendar is before the Senate. sage of the Wood tariff bill; which were referred to the Committee Mr. DAVIS, of lllinois. I hope the Calendar may be postponed so on Finance. that this subject may be disposed of. He also presented a. resolution of the Chamber of Commerce of the Mr. VOORHEES. I hope by unanimous consent the morning hour city of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in favor of the extension of aid for may be extended for half an hour. the completion of the Texas and Pacific Railroad; which was referred The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Indiana proposes to the Committee on Railroads. that the morning hour be extended for half an hour for general busi He also presented a memorial of the Philadelphia Maritime Ex ness. Is there objection 7 change, urging _the continuation of the life-saving service in the Treas Mr. EDMUNDS. I am in favor of that, and I am in favor also of ury Department and opposing its transfer to the Navy Department what the Senator from Kentucky bas stated of making this bill the as against the interests of commerce and navigation; which was next business so as to dispose of it by having the committee fix up ordered to lie on the table. the amendments as they ought to be, or else by passing upon it here. He also presented the petition of Da-aiel K. Morgan and others, citi Mr. VOORHEES. I have no oLjection to that. zens of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, enga.ged in the manufa-cture Mr. EDMUNDS. I think now that we have entered on the discus- of tin-plate, praying for such legislation as will protect that industry • l......
1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. ·2953
as against the introduction of the imported material at a reduced rate t.he steamer Oneida went down in the Bay of Yokohama, bearing an of duty; which was referred to the Committee on Finance. officer of that rank to the bottom. Under existing law, there is no Mr. BOOTH presented the petition of P. J. Thomas and others, citi provision for a pension to those that he left behind him. The object zens of San Francisco, California, praying for the passage of such a of this bill is to provide for that deficiency, and I ask that it be placed law as will enable the Southern Pacific Railroad Company to extend upon the Calendal' with a favorable recommendation. its road east from the Colora{io River at Fort Yuma. and through Ari · The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The bill will be placed upon the zona and New Mexico to -an eastern connection with the Gulf of Calendar. Mexico; w.hich wa-s referred to the Committee on Railroads. Mr. BUTLER, from the Committee on :Military Affairs, to whom Mr. DORSEY presented a resolution of Eureka Council No.4, of the was referred the bill ( S. No. 605) for the relief of William M. Kendall, Sovereigns of Industry of the District of Columbia, representing 319 reported it with an amendment, and submitted a report thereon, families, in favor of the enactment of such a law by Congress as will which was ordered to be printed. insure full weight to purchasers of coal, and compel coal-dealers to Mr. BAILEY, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom was re send the certificate of a properly appointed Government weigher with ferred the petition of :Mary E. Parker, widow of Solomon M. Parker, every load of coal delivered; which was· referred to the Committee late a private in Company D, Second Regiment New Jersey Cavalry, on the District of Columbia. submitted a report thereon accompanied by a bill (S. No. 1163) grant Mr. PLUMB presented additional papers in relation to the applica ing a pension to Mary E. Parker. tion of Elizabeth A. Bailey, guardian of Alice H. Peabody, minor The bill was read twice by its title, and the report was ordered to heir of Captain David G. Peabody, deceased, for a pension; which be printed. . were referred to the Committee on Pensions. Mr. HAMLIN. The Committee on Foreign Relations, to whom was Mr. McDONALD presented the memorial of Isaac B. Hymer, of In referred the joint resolution (H. R. No. 4) to allow Lieutenant D. ~' . diana; Joseph K. Rickey, of Missouri; Jacob D.Felthousen: of Illinois; Tozier a gold medal,awarded by the President of the French Repub and George D. Rice, of Massachusetts, praying for the passage of the lic, have directed me to report it back and recommend its passage bill (S. No. 1082) providing for the construction of a national line without amendment. I will take this occasion to say that this gift of rail way from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean; which was was for gallant services rendered in preserving a certain bark and referred to the Committee on Railroads. the lives of the persons thereon. THE TENTH CENSUS. Mr. WALLACE, from ·the Committee on Finance, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 2132) to pay for clerical services and ex The PRESIDENT pro temp(}re laid before the Senate the following traordinary expenses, under the seventh section of the act of August concurrent resolution from the House of Representatives. 18, 1856, in the Pawnee land district in Kansas, reported it with an Resolved by the House o.f Representative&, (the Senate concurring therein,) That a amendment, and submitted a report thereon; which was ordered to joint committee to be denominated "joint committee on the census," be appointed to consider and report upon the proper measures to be adopted for the taking of be printed. the next census; and that said committee may report by bill or otherwise. Mr. McMILLAN, from the Committee on Commerce, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 435) to establish a boa,rd of local inspectors Mr. MORRILL. I move to refer that to the special committee ap of steam vessels for the collection districts of :Minnesota and Duluth, pointed by the Senate on the subject of the tenth census. reported it without amendment. The motion was agreed to. :Mr. BOOTH, from the Committee on Public Lands, to whom was REPORTS OF COMMITTEES. referred the bill (S. No. 989) for the relief of certain settlers on the Mr. MAXEY, from the Committee on Military Affairs, to whom was public lands, and to provide for the repayment of certain fees and referred the bill (S. No. 1114) to amend the one hundred and third commissions paid on void entries of public lands, reported it with article of war, reported it with amendments, and submitted a report amendments, and submitted a report thereon; which was o.!dered to thereon which was ordered to be printed. be printed. 1\!r. MAXEY. I am instructed by the same committee, to whom Mr. BRUCE, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom was re- was referred the bill (S. No. 1094)·for the pardon of certain deserters £erred the petition of David Dimmick, a soldier of the war of 1812, from the United States Army in 1848, to report. it back and to say praying to be allowed a pension, submitted a report thereon, accom that the bill just reported, No. 1114, fully covers the object sought panied by a. bill (S. No. 1164) granting a pension to David Dimmick. to be attained by this bill 1094. The committee therefore ask to be The bill wa-s read twice by its title, and the report wa-s orc.J.ered to discharged from its further consideration. · be printed. The committee were discharged from the further consideration of Mr. COCKRELL. The Committee on Military Affairs, to whom was Senate bill No. 1094, and it was postponed indefinitely. referred the bill (H. R. No. 4245) authorizing the President of the Mr. MORRILL. The Committee on Finance instruct me to report United States to appoint James Shields, of Missouri, a brigadier-gen back the resolution in relation to the repeal of the sinking fund. I eral in the United States Army on the retired list have consic.J.ered will say that it is a concuiTent resolution, and amon~ other things the same, and I am instructed to report it back to the Senate favor it seems to cont;emplate the repeal of a certain existmg law and to ably and recommend its passage. It is not a unanimous report. The give certain instructions to the Secretary of the Treasury which canJ members of the committee not favoring the bill reserve freedom of not be done by concunent resolution. Therefore I am instructed to action to themselves when it comes up. report adversely. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The bill will be placed on the Cal- The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The adverse report will be placed endar. on the Calendar. NAVAL APPROPRIATION BILL. 1l1r. VOORHEES, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 1451) granting a pension to George W. Mr. SARGENT submitted the following r~port : Wickwire, reported adversely thereon; and the bill was postponed The committee of conference on the disa~eing votes of the two Houses on the amendments of the Senate to tho bill (H. R. No. 3822) making appropriations for indefinitely. the naval service for the year ending June 30, 187!1, and for other purposes, havin~ He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill met, after full and free conference, have agreed to recommend and do recommena. (H. R. No. 2515) granting a pension to John Sheiber, late a private to their respective Houses as follows : That the Senate recede from its amendments numbered 18, 19, 26, 27, and 28. in the Twelfth Regiment Pennsylvania Volunteer Cavalry, reported - That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendments numbered 1, 2, adversely thereon; and the bill was postponed indefinitely. 3, 4, 8, 9, 29, 33, 34, ~5, 37, 38, 39, 40t and 41, and agree to the same. He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill That the Rouse recede from its aisagreement to the amendment numbered 5, and (H. R. No. 3114) providing for an increase of pension to Charles H. agree to the same, with an amendment as follows : _, . Insert after the word "for," in line 8, page 4 of the bill, the following: "secre Day, reported it without amendment. taries to the Admiral and Vice-Admiral.' He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill And the Senate agree to the same. (H. R. No. 3105) granting a pension to Ruth Isabelle Naylor, widow That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 7, and of Captain Charles Naylor, of the Second Regiment of Pennsylvania agree to the same, with an amendment as follows: . After the word "Admiral" insert the word ''or," and after the word "Vice-Ad Volunteers in the Mexican war, reported it without amendment. miral " insert the wo.rds "when on sea service.'' He also, from the same committee, to whom wa-s referred the peti .And the Senate agree to the same. tion of Mary McAdams, praying to have her name restored to the pen That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 10, sion-roll, submitted a report thereon accompanied by a bill (S. No. and agree to the same, with an amendment as follows: After the word "Vice-Admiral" insert the words "when on sea service.'' 1165) granting a pension to Mary McAdams. And the Senate agree to the same. The bill was read twice by its title, and the report was ordered to That the House recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 11, be printed. and agree to the same, with an amendment as follows : He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill Add at tho end of said amendment the words "on the termination of its cruise.'' And the Senate agree to the l!llme. (S. No. 969) granting a pension to 1\-frs. N. E. Belrichards, reported That the Honse recede from its disagreement to the amendment numbered 30, it without amendment, and submitted a report thereon, which was and a~ee to the same with an amendment as follows: ordered to be printed. In lieu of the sum proposed insert" 24,080.75.'' And the Senate agree to the same. Mr. VOORHEES. The same committee, to whom was referred the .A. .A. SAP..GENT, bill (H. R. No. 4422) to amend section 4695 of the Revised Statutes of S. W. DOP.SEY, the United States, have instructed me to report it favorably with an J .AMES B. BECK, amendment. One word of explanation may not be improner. When Manage-rsffii~~&a;.t d~ ~~te. the law providing for pent:tions to naval officers was first enacted, JAME5 H. BLOUNT, the rank of lieutenant-commander did not exist. After the passage EUGENE H..A..LE, of that act that rank was created, and after the creation of the rank, Managers on the part of the IIottse •
• 2954 · CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. APRIL 30,
Mr. SARGENT. The differences between the House and the Senate bankrupt law, the Senator from Ohio [Mr. MATTHEWS] being entitled were very slight indeed, and they were compromised to the entire sat to the floor. isfact.ion of the conferees on the part of the Senate. I can give a Mr. MAT'fHEWS. Mr. President, I think the Senate ought to detailed explanation if necessary, but the items are unimportant. pause deliberately before taking this final and irrevocable step. The report was concurred in. This measure and this subject are still within our control, and will BILLS INTRODUCED. remain so if the reference prevails, as long as the bill is under con sideration in the committee and it is in a position in which it can be Mr. DORSEY asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to molded to meet the actual, the real, and the final view of the Sen introduce a bill (S. No. 1166) granting a pension to Mary Mitchell; ate, whatever that may turn out to be ; but if we now act we act which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on once and for all, and the matter passes beyond our jurisdiction. Pensions. It is idle and vain for Senators to say that a new bill can be intro Mr. CHRISTIANCY (by request) asked, and by unanimous consent duced at any time and by any Senator, and can then be referred to obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 1167) for the relief of the the proper committee and considered by that committee and reported heirs of Sheldon .McKnight, deceased, late of Detroit, Michigan; which back for action. While according to parliamentary law that can be was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Post done, as a matter of fact we know that it cannot be done efficiently Offices and Po t-Roads. with any expectation of success, and therefore will not be done at Mr. HARRIS asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to all. But as long a.s the matter stands before us in its present attitude introduce a bill (S. No. 1168) to amend section N25 of the Revised it is forced upon our consideration and we are bound to come to some Statutes of the United States; which was rea-d twice by its title, and conclusion. Now while it is in that condition, while it is in debatable referred to the Committee on Military Affairs. land, while we have not actually reached our final conclusion, cer Mr. McPHERSON asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave tainly is it not the part of ordinary prudence and wisdom in legis to introduce a. bill (S. No. 1169) for the relief of George H. Cook and lative matters not to formulate that conclusion in the shape of an James Jenkins; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the irrevocable decision until we a,re clear and certain that that is a con Committee on Patents. clusion from which we may not wish to recede f It is much easier Mr. HOWE (by request) asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, while the subject is exciting the attention that has been aroused for leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 1170) to authorize the restoration of the Judiciary Committee to take hold of it, to consider it under the Calvin T. Speer to the rank of Aecond lieutenant United States Army; pressure of the feeling on the part of the Senate and of Congress and which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on of the country that something positive and substantial and decisive Military Affairs. ought to be done and accomplished, than it is to wipe out all legisla Mr. L.~GALLS a-sked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to tion on that subject and begin de novo, for with that much of the in introduce a bill (S. No. 1171) granting a pension to Nancy E. Bell; terest of the occasion ceases, and we have given ourselves up into which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on that hopeless condition in regard to the possibility of successful legis Pensions. lation which of itself will defeat-all attempts at legislation. Mr. BRUCE asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to Now, 1\fr. President, I have confidence that if the Judiciary Com introduce a bill (S. No. 1172) for the relief of A. C. Crawford; which mittee will take hold of this subject in that spirit and with that was rea-d twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Claims. desire they will produce something which will be acceptablE\ to the WITHDRAWAL OF PAPE.RS. Senate and which will be better than the bankrupt law a.s it now On motion of Mr. ANTHONY, it was is and far better than the absolute and unconditional repeal of it. Ordered, That Mrs. Catherine Hunt have leave to withdraw her petition and I believe that tbe causes, the uncertainties, the indecisions which papers from the files of the Senate. resulted in the disagreement of that committee and the present poAture Mr. OGLESBY. I ask for an order to have taken from the :files the of the subject will have been removed by the discussion which has petition of 50 citizens of Plana, Kendall County, Illinois, for the taken place, by the new developments of public sentiment, and by gnmting of a pension to Mrs. Mary E. Lowe, wife of Captain John the expressed wish of the Senate that the Judiciary Committee shall H. Lowe. This petition was referred to the Committee on Pensions, bend their energies to the task of perfecting instead of repealing the January 2'2, 1878, and Maroh 18 the committee was discharged from law. If it is competent for Senators to express in clear and unmis its further consideration. I desire to introduce a bill, for reference takable langua-ge the various objections which they have to the pro to the Committee on Pensions, with the additional proofs in the case, visions of that act, then it is competent for the Judiciary Committee and for that purpose I move that this petition be taken from the :files to remove those objections by a change in the law, either by repeal and recommitted to the Committee on Pensions. . ing the voluntary provisions, leaving the rest of the statute to remain, The motion was agreed to. or substituting for them improvements which shall meet the diffi culty. Al\:I:ENDMENTS TO BILLS. Let us therefore give the matter one more trial; let us make one Mr. COKE submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by more experiment. The subject is worth it. No more important ques him to the bill (S. No. 942) amendatory of and supplementary to the tion, none affecting the interests of the community from one end of act entitled "An act to incorporate the Texas Pacific Railroad Com country to the other irrespective of sections and classes, none lying pany, and to aid in the construction of its I'oad, and for other pur more nearly at the foundation of the public weal exists or has been poses," approved March 3, 1t!71, and the several acts amendatory considered by the Senate than this very question of a proper and effi thereof and supplementary thereto; which was ordered to be printed. cient bankrupt system. The country has tried to do without it, and Mr. BUTLER submitted an amendment intended to be proposed it has been compelled periodically to return to it and return to it each by him to the bill (H. R. No. 805) to repeal all that part of the act time under circumstances of all others the most unfavorable for wise approved January 14, 1875, known as the resumption act, which au and judicious legislation; under the impulse and the pressure of great thorized the Secretary of the Trea..,ury to dispose of United States public calamities and distress, and inspired either by feelings of de bonds and redeem and cancel t.he greenback currency; which was liverance from the burden of debt and the inability of debtors over ordered to be printed. whelmed by calamities which overcame the whole community or by Mr. DAVIS, of West Virginia, submitted an amendment intended the cries of creditors who were deprived by the multitudinous frauds to be proposed by him to the bill (H. R. No. 42136) to establish post of their debtors of their just dues. roads in the several States therein named; which was referred to the Now, when we still have the syste~ and are experiencing its evil Committee on Post-Offices and Post-Roads, and ordered to be printed. effects, let us not throw away the possible good which exists in order Mr. GARLAND, Mr. MITCHELL, Mr. CONOVER, and Mr. MAT to remedy evils which are not remediable in that way, but which may THEWS submitted amendments intended to be proposed by them be remedied in some other way. Let us not resort to amputation as respectively to the bill (H. R. No. 428tl' making appropriations for long as there is a possibility of saving the limb. I know it is a maxim the construction, repair, preservation, an ·(l~~ti.on of certain pub in some surgery always to cut, but the wisest is the remedial system lic works on rivers and harbors, aml for other p'itP/Joses j which were which seeks to restore to soundness and to save. I believe it is impos referred to the Committee on Commerce, and ordered to be printed. sible to believe otherwise than that the Judiciary Committee of this PRINTING OF STATEMENTS. body, the s~lect lawyers not only of the Senate but of the country, comprising the very highest order of talent and the most varied expe On motion of Mr. PADDOCK, it was rience and the widest learning, are able to take this subject up and Ordered, That 300 copies of the statement of John Roach before the Committee on Post-Offices and Post-Roads on the subject of ocean steamshlp service between to treat it in a scientific and a successful way, and I am not willing the United States and Brazil be printed-for the nse of the Committee on Post-Offices as a Senator, not a member of that committee, to confess for them and Post-Roads. · their incapacity in this respect. On the contrary, I have more faith PRESIDENTIAL APPROVAL. in them than they seem to have in themselves, believing it is only A message from the President of the United States, by :Mr. 0. L. a want of self-confidence on their part that has compelled them to PRUDEN, one of his secretaries, announced that the President bad recoil from the attempt to perform a task that I know is certainly this day approved and signed the act (S. No. 1080) authorizing the within the compass of their powers. issue of passports free to colored citizens going to Brazil. It is said, Mr. President, that the present bankrupt act is the hope less resort and protection and refuge for all manner of fraud and vil BANKRUPT·LAW REPEAL. lainy, and that that is a reason why it ought to be hurried out of The PRESIDENT p1'o tmnpm·e. If there be no further morning sight, to be instantaneously wiped out of existence, to be blotted business the Senate resumes the consideration of the amendments of from the statute-book, because there are so many fraudulent debtors the House of Representatives to the bill (S. No. 35) to repeal the who are crowding into the court-s seeking to obtain the benefit of its 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 2955 provisions and discharge. No doubt that is largely so. No doubt Mr. ALLISON. That is one motion before the Senate, to instruct there will be fraudulent debtors under any amended bankrupt sys the committee to report amendments to the present law. tem. I do not expect, I dare not hope, that any ·statute that we may Mr. HILL. It does not seem to me that that discussion is exactly pass can ever either prevent or sufficiently punish the frauds which proper. It is in order I admit, but the Senate by a vote of six t o one arise frDm day to day between debtor and creditor. I look for the have expressed their desire to repeal the existing law. 'l'he House cure of that disorder as I do for the cure of other political and social have concurred in that expression of desire by the Senate, by an disorders, to a medicine that is far deeper and less superficial than overwhelming vote of three or four to one. I think in view of that any legislation we are competent to consider or to pass. But it is no large expression of desire both in the House and Senate to repeal argument against this bankrupt act, it is no argument against any absolutely the existing bankrupt laws, it is not to be expected that bankrupt act that it will not prevent, detect, remedy, or punish pos there will be a change of opinion upon the subject sufficient to pre sible frauds. Do the Senators who are urginO" the immediate repeal vent the repeal. of this act flatter themselves with the idea that when it is repealed The only proper question before the Senate is one very limited in there will no longer be frauds committed by debtors against creditors Y its character, and that is whether the amendments proposed by the Manifest as those frauds in my opinion have been and as often a.s House are of such a character as to authorize the reference of this the very provisions of the law have been made to cover a retreat for bill again to the Judiciary Committee. Although the discussion has them, I nevertheless venture on the prediction that the absolute and gone into the whole field, I am not going to follow it except to assign unconditional repeal of the act will be simply uncovering the box of briefly the reasons why I favor the repeal of the existing bankrupt Pandora, and instead of the frauds that can now be enumerated and laws while at the sn.me time I favor the existence of a uniform sys carried on in the list of bankruptcies they will be so thick and so tem of bankruptcy. many that. they will darken the air and you cannot count them. . The administration of the present law has been subjected to im Will not the provisions of the State system of insolvencies be re mense abuse. In my judgment a machinery hM grown np in the sorts of the same character! Will there not be confessions of judg administration of this law by which the estate of a debtor goes to ment where there was no debt f Will there not be feigned mortgages some persons other than his creditors. In my country they rarely to cover property from real creditors Y Will there not be fraudulent prove their debts. I think the majority of creditors never prove conveyances made to hinder, delay, and defraud those whose debts their debts in bankruptcy. They take it for granted when they re are matured and whose claims have ripened into judgments f Will ceive a notice in bankruptcy that they wUl get nothing; that if the there not be every device, every resort, every stratagem that the in debtor has anything to distribute it will be distributed .among those genuity of fraud always can invent and contrj.ve a-a well under the who are authorized to take it before it can get to the creditors. As numerous, various, and multiplied systems of insolvency, of assign to what are the particular defects in the law under which these ment laws to which we are relegated and remitted by the repeal of frauds can be committed, I shall not take up the time of the Senate the bankrupt act, as under any bankrupt act which can or may be to discuss. I simply state the fact that they exist. devised t I believe after full consideration that I concur in much that bas In addition to those frauds which will be common to every system, been said by the Senator from Ohio, [:Mr. MATTHEWS.] While I do the repeal of this act will breed oppression of its own. What shall believe that it would be a calamity to a great commercial country wo have instead t I venture on another prediction. The result will like this not to have a uniform system of bankruptcy, while I believe be that the very rich creditors out of the number of creditors of a that such a system is almost a necessity, while r believe in a large given debtor, who are able by threats or promises to make it appear measure that wrongs and oppressions may grow up if the existing to the failing or insolvent debtor that his interest lies in preferring laws are unconditionally repealed, still, in view of the frauds that the strongest creditor, in every case of insolvency will be found exist, in view of the maladministration of the present laws, I believe to have appropriated to themselves. to the exclusion of the general it will be in accord with the desires of the country, both creditors and creditors, all that remains of the debtor's estate. You will have debtors, that the present system should be wiped out. I believe that unjust and inequitable preferences. You will have judgments con to be the only effectual remedy, and therefore I am prepared to vote fessed and mortgages given to secure preferred creditors, and that · for the repeal. . preference will either be dictated by natural affection or by that which I do not think it is altogether right that gentlemen who are op is in many cases strongereven than natural affection, the self-interest posed to the repeal, after the expression of opinion that has taken of the debtor and the fear of the creditor by attachment seizing the place in the Senate and the Honse, should resort to any measure to property in advance, by judgments voluntarily confessed, by collat prevent the perfection of the bill now before us. erals hypothecated, by mortgages given, by absolute deeds, transfers, I wish simply to add that I think the Judiciary Committee, in w bose and conveyances of every description. The large firms, the A. T. Stew ability we all concur, immediately upon the repeal of this law ought art & Co., the H. B. Claflin & Co., and such immense establishments, to take ~nto consideration the enactment of a bankrupt law more sim will swallow up the rights and the interests of all other creditors of ple jn character, one less liable to fraud and corruption, one better moderate and smaller means; so that instead of avoiding the diffi adapted to carry out the real purpose of such a law and to afford the culty you are simply precipitating and increasing it; you are not only relief for which a system of bankruptcies is intended. legislating against the honest debtor but you are legislating in such On the immediate question before the Senate, of reference to the a way as to present a. temptation almost too great to be overcome to Committee on the Judiciary, my idea at first was that the bill ought honest debtors to become .dishonest in the sense which I have de not to be referred, because there is nothing in the amendments pro scribed by delivering up themselves and their estate to the custody pos?d by the House which requires a review by the Judiciary Com and the care of one creditor out of many in order that they may mittee. The Senator from New York [Mr. CONKLL.'ml ·made a sug have his protection. gestion which I thought reasonable. I thought that his suggestion In the light of our experience, in the presence of the condition of was correct and that the bill ought to go to the Judiciary Committee. the country, which certainly, more than in almost any other period I was then of the opinion, in which I seem to have been mistaken, of its history before, demands legislation of this sort, are we proving that th~ committee were almost unanimously in favor of the repeal ourselves equal to our task and equal to our duty in surrendering, of the bankrupt law. It seems that that is a mistake. I am assured without an attempt rightly and wisely to exercise it, this great con again by the Senator from Michigan, [Mr. CHRISTIANCY,] a very stitutional jurisdiction, this jurisdiction expressly conferred in order able a.nd distinguished member of that committee, that the amend that we may, by the establishment of a uniform rule on the subject ment proposed by him will relieve the difficulties suggested by. the of bankruptcies, prevent the 90nfusion, the disorder, the loss, the Senator from New York completely, and that therefore there is no treachery, and the fraud which may be practiced through the instru necessity really for the bill to go back to the committee. If there is mentality of State systems of insolvent laws f Are we not yielding to no necessity growing out of the amendments proposed by the House an unreal and merely fancied necessity when the real and the urgent to refer the bill back to the committee, I do not think it is exactly necessity ought to drive us in the opposite direction f proper to refer the bill for the purpose of reviewing the already ex I do most--solemnly and earnestly protest against the hasty action pressed desire of the Senate and of the House. I do not think that of the Senate in this regard. I do most earnestly and sincerely urge it is exactly proper to bring into the question the whole original sub and appeal to Senators that we make another effort in order to estab ject of the bankrupt law and its repeal. If it be true that the amend lish a wiser and better system than that under which we have been ment stated by the Senator from Michigan will relieve the difficulties living, and not give it up altogether; for there is no reason urging suggested by the Senator from New York and perfect the bill, there ns in that direction which does not amount to a declaration on our is no necessity for referring it. If that is not so, let some Senator part that we abdicate now and forever, for all time to come, the show that it is not so. If there is a necessity to refer the bill, we exercise of this power given us by the foresight of the founders of ought to refer it, because we should make no mistake. The saving the Constitution. clause should be complete to carry out the purpose of the two Houses. Mr. HILL. Mr. President, I believe that there ought to be a uni If there is no necessity for referring the bill, then we ought not to form system of bankruptcy in this country. I believe the framers of refer it. We ought to carry out what is the expressed will of the Sen the Constitution intended that there should be one. I think the ate and of the House, who I take it for granted fairly represent the present bankrupt law bas been of i¥!mense service to very many will of the people. people. I think it has been a general good; but while I so think I I confess ihat I have bad great trouble upon this subject. I believe believe the present existing bankrupt laws ought to be entirely re that much said by gentlemen on the other side is worthy of weighty pealed. In listening to the discussion this morning one would sup consideration. I have doubted myself very serion ly the propriety pose that the motion before the Senate was to reconsider the action of repealing this law a.bsolutely; but I do not believe we can get riu of this body had a week or two since. of its defective administration; I 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-. SENATE. 2957 try, in this time when our business future is so doubtful and hazard did not undertake amendments to rectify the evils that do exist; and ous, into this condition which I have described. that was the idea, real or mistaken, that the Senate through the in J\.1r. EDMUNDS. Mr. President, the Senator from Massachusetts fluence of a public opinion, not well founded in respect of the prin [Mr. HoAR] has alluded to a point tow hich I wish to call the attention ciple upon which it rested, but uneasy under abuses that they saw, of the Senate; and that is, that the present repeal of the bankrupt had so impressed itself upon us that the law was going to be re act, although it revives the ill solvent systems of all the States, does not pealed anyhow, and that any labor of the committee in undertaking revive them as to any existin2' debt, or any existing credit, which, to rectify the evils and abuses which exist would be merely labor of course, is the corresponding attitude. 'l'herelations of every cred thrown away; and so this bill for repeal was reported against my itor and every debtor now existing, this a-ct being repealed to-day, vote and that of my honorable friend from lllinois [Mr. DAVIS] and will continue to exist in spite of State laws. No debtor, therefore, perhaps one or two others; and so the minority of the committee can be discharged so that he can begin business again and aid in the must be excused from taking any responsibility in respect of the im general welfare and prosperity of the community, without being ex perfections that are supposed to exist in the repealing act. posed to an immediate suit at law by his creditor for his unpaid debt, So much, Mr. President, for the attitude of the general question, however perfect the State system, a.s in Massachusetts it is, may be with this addition which I will here state, because I wish to be as as applied to the citizens of its own State. brief as possible. It is said that it is generally acknowledged that More than that, Mr. President, it operates in exactly the same way there ought to be a bankrupt law for the reason that commerce and in respect of insolvency as to future debts, in effect; for how is a debtor business know no State lines, that whatever may be said about State i;o have a just dischart;te in future insolvency and how is the creditor rights and State sovereignty (in all of which I agree as it is usually to h"ave a just proportiOn of that debtor's estate, if at the same time stated) in respect of business intercourse and the commercial relations there is left behind as to all these existing debtors this old incubus of the people of this Republic there are no State lines; we are a hanging upon them! Now, out of the business people of the United nation and nothing else. There are no barriers that divide the State States, which I estimate at five million persons, probably one-eighth of Vermont from the State of New York; there are none that divide of all the population in the United States in some form or other are the State of Georgia from the State of South Carolina or any other of engaged in business transactions. Suppose it is only one-twentieth; the Statee. We are one people. And yet, as the Senator from Massa suppose you say one million even of the citizens of the United States chusetts [Mr. HoAR] has pointed out, under the Constitution as it put it at its lowest-are engaged in business transactions to-day, upon exists and has been expounded, there is no power in any one or in their prosperity and success and fidelity and honesty depend the pros all the States acting as States to regulate the business transactions perity of the whole commonwealth. The moment you take out of the between their citizens and those of other States. They are utterly active forces of society the industry, the intelligence, and the busi beyond the power of the States. Therefore any State system that ness capacity of the great body of its commercial and business citizens, may exist is necessarily founded upon a false principle, if the princi and hamper and embarrass them, that moment you have struck a ple of bankruptcy is correct at all, and is necessarily ineffectual in great blow at the prosperity of the Republic. Nobody can dispute respect of the great public objects of relieving au honest and indus that. · . trious debtor who has met with misfortunes and enabling him to Now, then, in that view of a statement which I am sure everybody turn his industry and talent again to the benefit of the Republic in will agree to, those who wish for repeal and those who do not, let us_ carrying on business. There is no power, I repeat, in any of the calmly look the thing exactly in the face and see what we are going States to completely regulate those affairs. Therefore every State to do. We are goin~ to say as to every one of these debtors and these system must be necessarily defective in principle and imperfect in its creditors now existmg, "You are remitted to the common law" that execution. Everybody agrees to that; and yet because the present applies in all the States, or something like it, and that is " first come law, the act of 1874, is found in certain respects to be excessive in first served;" whoever sues and gets a judgment, and in some States, respect of its expenses (and that. is the fault of the judges of the as in mine, whoever sues first and afterward gets a judgment takes Supreme Court, I will say, because they have the whole control of the whole of the debtor's estate, and excludes all the other creditors,_ that by rules and regulations; they can diminish them by rules and when everybody knows that is unjust and wrong. But supposing it to regulations; or the law could do it now if we had a chance,) or be done, and the debtor is wound up, what is he going to do then; or because in respect of the relations between the debtor and his cred take those who are not sued and are not wound up, who keep on for itor in regard to compositions, voluntary bankruptcy, discharges on a little w bile, for a year if you please, with these old debts still unpaid, the payment of certain percentages it is found to be wrong, we are and then this continuance of trouble in this country not being dis to wipe it all out. If we find that the customs laws are, as it is posed of, they are forced to settle with their creditors and wind up claimed, wrong, now, the argument would be just as strong to repeal their business; how are their new creditors to stand' Where are they the whole system of customs laws at once and begin again. The in to get the new credit upon which new creditors will lend' Because ternal-revenue laws are said to be wrong; we regulate them every the new creditor sees "if this man goes into a state of insolvency a year; they are oppressive here ; they are too indulg~nt there : there year hence, during this year the old creditor who cannot be touched fore wipe them all out, and wait until you can get a new law I That by any repeal of the bankrupt law may take the very money and is not reasonable, Mr. President. property that I advanced to this business man to help him benefit the The state of the present law in the defects to which I have referred, J..teoplA, honest as he is, in carrying on his affairs, will be taken to pay aside from the expensiveness of it and the distance that peo:f?le are the old debt." The toil of many, the contributions of many are made sometimes obliged to go under the present system to have their cases the gain of a few. What becomes of the debtor's credit then, a man tried, arises from the very fact that in 1874 the Judiciary Committee who under existing conditions, or under normal conditions without a of ·this body were impelled by the same wind-! do not mean wind bankrupt law, if you take future debts alone, the old ones being paid in the sense that we talk about oratory-but by the same tide of a off', could get credit. The consequence will be, as I believe the neces temporary public opinion reflected here, that the old bankrupt law sary consequence in the present state of business in the country will was too favorable to the creditor, in order to save it, to go too far in be (however much we may dislike the expensiveness of these wipings the direction of favor to the debtor as it is claimed. It was in order out by bankruptcy, however much we may dislike the fact that they to save the law at all that the distance to which we went in that pay so little and are discharged so often) to drive into a state of direction was reached. Whether we went too far is another ques actual bankruptcy-! am not now speaking of legal bankruptcy tion; but we went that far in respect of the ease with which a per from the diminution of credit, the incapacity to borrow money and son could get out who had been forced into involuntary bankruptcy keep on, hundreds of thousands of business men of this country and in other respects in regard to the number of creditors that must engaged in farming and manufacturing and mining and everything. agree to a composition, &c., on the ground that it was useless to put Bad as is the law now in respect to these great expenses, bad as it upon what we thought were the perfectly philosophical principles it- is now ill respect to the fraudulent compositions as it is said, of the thing, for the rea-son that the Senate would not agree to it. you will by its repeal drive into actual bankruptcy hundreds of That is not a good way to legislate, I admit, but we did it. If we had thousands of people who, if yo:n keep the law bad as it is now, will not done it, the bankrupt law would have been repealed three years go on and no expenses will have to be paid because they will not ago, and would have been re-enacted two years ago in my opinion, go into bankruptcy; the creditors will not force them into bank beyond all question. So we stand. ruptcy for the reason that they see, as the opponents of the bank Now, Mr. President, I am glad that the Senator from Iowa [Mr. AL rupt law say, that they will get nothing if they do, because all will LISON] has made this motion, because it will enable the Senate to be eaten up in expenses; and the voluntary man if he be honest determine, definitely and affirmatively and in advance, whether it is and the great majority of business men are honest-will say "I desirable to absolutely repeal the whole law. If they say it is, and will not go into bankruptcy for the reason that so long as my cred disagree to his amendment instructing the committee to make itors will keep their hands off, knowing that there will be equality if inquiry into the methods of perfecting it, then one simple question they come in and discharge the debt and they will not get anything will rema.in of providing the amendment propo~ed by the House and because of the expenses, I can struggle on and when the sunshine of the other amendments necessary to make this repeal what every prosperity comes I can pay every dollar that I owe." Mr. President, body agrees it ought to be. Now what ought it to be f Everybody when you spread debt through a hundred thousand or a million hands agrees as to that, that it ought to preserve the present law for every all over this great Republic, we ought to consider very carefully what existing purpose-crimes, penalties, assignments, suits-everything. sort of effect we are going to produce in this time of distress by the The bill as it passed the Senate undoubtedly did not do it. The bill step we are to h:tke. as it is amended by the House of Representatives is just as far off I opposed the repeal of this law in committee. I said nothing about from doing it. If anybody will take this thing and run his eye over it in the Senate for the same reason undoubtedly that the committee it, he will see that tho amendments proposed by the House of Repre- 2958 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE~ · APRIL 30, sentatives, as st.ated by the Senator from Michigan, only make what insist that that was not the object of this reference or the thing was perhaps doubtful and difficult before more doubtful, and more referred. difficult, and more imperfect. Take the amendment proposed by the After a great deal of consideration it was determined by the commit Senator from Michigan in the place where he proposes .to put it in tee, virtually without any recommendation at all p1'0 or con, because and in my humble judgment, stated upon the spur of the moment there never was an affirmative report made on this subject, that it was and without time to discuss it privately and to think of nothing else, appropriate, respectful, and deferential to the Senate and to the occa it will still leave it open in respect to questions that will arise as to sion for. the Judiciary Committee to come back with the facts stated criminal prosecutions, as to suits brought by assignees in respect of and without recommendation leave the Senate to pass upon it. So it matters hereafter to occur, and aa to suits under the old law even lly did; and the Senate by a great majority declared for a repeal and assignees, to the greatest possible doubt as to whether those snits are declared it in the terms employed by the draughtsman of the original saved. bill. The honorable Senator from Michigan, [Mr. CHRISTIANCY,] What, then, is the best thing to do in such a case T The simple thing who, unlike some other members of the committee, had no hesitation would be to refer the matter to some committee. If the Senate has in his judgment adverse to the law, had confided to him the duty of lost confidence in the Judiciary Committee, very well-it may very making the report, and confided to him also, at the suggestion of the rightly perhaps, not particularly in respect to this matter, but in committee, the duty of reporting a saving clause, which I may say, respect to all matters-then send it to some other committee to en for one, was never read in my bearing until it was read in the Senate. deavor by careful study, where there ls nothing else to be done for an That was adopted by the Senate. hour or two, to perfect the language in such a way as to cover all these The House of Representatives came to the conclusion that theRe points. After the vote of the Senate that they wish to repeal this vised Statutes should have been referred to, and not the Statutes at law and do not wish to authorize the committee to consider whether Large; and therefore, for abundant caution, or for industry; as law it can be amended, no Senator need be in the least afraid that the yers would say, they changed that phrase, and then they undertook Committee on the Judiciary or any other committee to which you to analyze and particularize in respect of the saving clause, and they may send this matter will not at once consider and perfect the Honse so made it that lawyers in the Senate and beyond the Senate believed amendments so as to report immediately. I should have. no objec that that clause aa presented to us now perfected in a law would tion, if it is the pleasure of the Senate to have this perfected by the loove unsaved some of the most conspicuously meritorious of existing Committee on the Judiciary, to act under an instruction that we rights; and therefore the Senator from Michigan offers an amend shall report immediately, which means just as soon as the matter can ment to cure that supposed defect; a~d the question which seemed to be considered. No Senator need be afraid that his repeal is going to me the only question practically before the Senate was and is whether be swamped by the fact that it is sent to a committee, after the sense we had better now, in the face of these alleged oversights, attempt of the Senate is ascertained that they are for repeal, to perfect the in open Senate, hap-hazard, on an unprinted amendment, to do all necessary machinery for protecting all rights. that need be done, or whether we bad better employ the services of Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, this debate to-day has been very some one of the committees of the Senate to insure us against future interesting and instructive to me, but no more instructive than sur error. That being the question, I cannot understand, any more than prising. It is a debate waged chiefly to shed light upon the question the honorable Senator from Georgia [Mr. HILL] was able to under whether the bankrupt law should continue or should be repealed. stand, why any time practically should be spent over such a question. Had all these speeches been made the other day when this question Had it been referred as a matter of course to the Committee on· the was before the Senate, they would have been in order, and I cannot Judiciary in the face of what had occurred, a speedy report would doubt they would have produced as much effect as they can possibly have come back. Had any delay been attempted, certainly a majority produce to-day. I had supposed, I do now suppose, whatever may of four to one could enforce that rule of the Senate which suggests be the cogency of the reasons on the other side, that the repeal, the that a committee may at any time be discharged from a measm·e, and immediate and total repeal of the bankrupt law is something decreed it may be brought back. Therefore, there was not the ghost of a by the judgment, the expressed judgment of an overwelming ma danger of the repeal of this law being postponed; there is not now ; jority of both Houses and of each House. I do not remember the and there is not, that I can see, the slightest objection pra-ctically to vote exactly in the Senate the other day; the Senators around me our doing what we do with all important bills, and that is subject it may. to this scrutiny. Mr. THURMAN. Thirty-seven to six. My honorable friend from Iowa, [Mr• .ALLISON,] during a moment Mr. CONKLING. Thirty-seven to six. On what day waa that, when I was diverted-! did not bear his resolution read-proposed, will the Senator tell me! as I understand, instructions directing the committee to revise the Mr. THURMAN. April16, I think. bankrupt act. The honorable Senator is sending for the doctor after Mr. DAVIS, of Dlinois. There were three or four of us paired with the man is dead. There is nothing except death and quarter-drty that gentlemen who were absent. I can think of more certain than the absolute repeal of the bankrupt Mr. CONKLING. Still that would preserve the proportion. law, and that presently; and the only question to which it is worth Mr. DAVIS, of Illinois. Thirty-seven to nine. while for him and me to address ourselves is what concerns the ap Mr. THURMAN. If the pairs had been here, the vote would have propriate and eflectual mode of doing that and doing nothing else. been forty-one to ten. Mr. ALLISON. It is not dead yet. Mr. CONKLING. Forty-one to ten. That would have been four to Mr. CONKLING. No, Mr. President, it is not dead yet, but its one, and a fraction over; and that was on the 16th of this month. death is decreed beyond all peradventure. Now, for my own part, I Mr. EDMUNDS. The 15th. do not care whether this bill goes to a committee or not except on Mr. CONKLING. The 16th the Senator from Ohio says. Surely the general account. I do not believe that the amendment which I there is no newly discovered evidence, there is no new state of the have beard read hastily, to be proposed by the honorable Senator case; on the contrary everything informs us that the majority· which from Michigan, is the amendment that be himself would prefer or in the House and in the Senate said that this law should cease exists approve if be had the opportunity thoroughly to revise this matter now. Therefore although, as I say, I have listened, for one, with and to listen to the various conflicting suggestions which arise in the great pleasure and great instruction to the very cogent reasons which consideration of a committee; and therefore I say that I think the have been assigned p1·o and con, I humbly conceive that the question billsbonld be referred. really before the Senate is not the question embraced by this wide I will only add, Mr. President, in answer to a remark which I think debate. fell from the honorable Senator from Massachusetts-who sits in front Some time ago the bill which is the foundation of the proceeding to of me [Mr. HoARl that my own vote upon the bankrupt law was day was introduced by the Senator from Kentucky, [Mr. McCREERY.] and is gnided, not"by my own judgment alone, nor by my estimate of I am not going to say, in the face of what the House bas done, that such considerations as the Senator (very appropriately, alil I tboo~ht) that bill as be drew it or introduced it designated properly the act suggested; but it is influenced chiefly by the fact that the Leglsla to be repealed. 1 have a very clear judgment, however, as to what lature of the State whose vote in part I am permitted to cast here, a.ny intelUgent court would have said on that topic had the House has with great emphasis of numbers' and of phrase instructed me to not amended the bill. However, the bill came to the Committee on vote for the repeal of the bankrupt law; and thus instructed I do not the Judiciary; and as one member of that committee I wish to dissent feel at liberty on a question of this sort to set up my judgment, bad entirely from any allegation or admission that it is blamable in respect I a judgment in conflict with that. So much I conclude without go of this bill. The bill was referred to the committee, not to ascertain ing into the general differences which prevail as to the extent of the whether the Senator from Kentucky who drew the bill bad cited the legitimate doctrine of instruction. I think upon a question of this proper page in the book or not; not to ascertain w betber his reference sort, applying the rule to myself, I am. not at liberty to speculate was to the Statutes at Large and not to the Revised Statutes; but upon what would be wise, or to do anything except give the vote for a very different purpose, to ascertain whether the thing the bill which seems to be expected of me; and therefore, in favoring the undertook to do should be done or not. That was referred to the motion to refer, I have no purpose of any sort either to delay or defeat Judiciary Committee, and referred to a subcommittee; and I confess the action of the Senate, bot simply to take the readiest and speediest freely that it never occurred to me to take the bill and go to the vol mode of arriving surely at the result which the Senate desire. ume and verify the mere reference to the act. That .is the thing Mr. PLUMB. Mr. President, I have in my band a statement by a. which a copyist does when he copies a paper ; two persons usually register in bankruptcy which I shall have read at the Clerk's desk c.ompare it; but when a bill is referred to a committee of this body, for the purpose of illustrating, as I think, the necessity for immediate it is not for the purpose of seeing whether some error in copying bas a-ction on this question, and for the purpose of accounting to some taken place, or whether by misadventure an erroneous page or title extent for the number of bankruptcies which have been spoken of has been referred to. I admit that that ought to be included, but I as occurring recently, and for the purpose of bringing to the front 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 2959 besides a small and very worthy class of people who feel very great that this bankrupt law may not set aside; we cannot sell property to interest in the repeal of the bankrupt act: the registers in bank raise money to carry on business, because the sale may be vacn.ted ruptcy. I ask the Secretary to read tbe circular. within four months under the operation of this bankrupt law; we Mr. McMILLAN. .May I ask the Senator whether that is a news cannot make any composition with our creditors who would be dis paper or a printed circular f posed to make compositions with us and to aid us in our business and Mr. PLUMB. It is from a newspaper; but the name of the register enable us to go on, because of this . bankrupt law that sets all of is signed to it. them aside ; and therefore, although nine-tenths of our creditors The Chief Clerk read as follows: may be in favor of such composition or such an arrangement with To the Editor of The Tribune: them as will enable us to continue our business and get out of our MORRISOY, ILL., April25.-l inclose a card which has been sent to every busi difficulties, there may be a tenth creditor who insists on levying ness man in this city. The merchant-s here are unanimously indignant that a black mail on us iu order that his assent may be obtained." And United States official should recommend and send all over the country circulars thus, sir, it was that the petitions that came here were generally :from making robbery easy and safe at the expense of all honest men, and would like to the debtors who said "this law stands in the way of our making have the matter shown up in the strongest light. HARDWARE. such arrangements with our creditors as will enable us to continue OFFICE OF UNITED STATES REGISTER IN BANKRUPTCY, our business." · Freeport, Ill., April 22, 1878. And I say now that in respect to a large number of debtors, men DEAR Sm: Within the next few days the bankrupt la.w will, no doubt, be re who do not want to go into bankruptcy, men who do not want to be pealed. The bill repealing it has paslled the Uniwd States Senate and has gone come voluntary bankrupts, but who want to make such arrangements to the House, where it is almost certain to be ;~;~assed without debate. · On the ap as will enable them to carry on their business-in respect of all that proval by the President of that bill, the law will then stand repealed. The repeal of this law may deprive many persons of the oppportunity of avail class of men their cry is still the same; they do not want the law to ing themselves of ita benefits who desire to do so. To such, if any there be, it is stand, because it interferes with those arrangements which would be the purpose of this card to Eay that, if their petitions are filed in the United States necessary to carry on their business. The cry, then, for the repeal of court of Ohicago before the repeal takes effect, such repeal cannot prevent their the bankrupt law heretofore, since 1873, has been more on behalf of going through bankruptcy. All persons who have got their petitions on jUe will be safe, and the ~epeal will in no wise affect them. the debtors than on behalf of the creditors. I do not deny that there A person can go through and get a discharge whose assets amount to 30 per is a large number of debtors who want the law to remain, many of cent. of his debts t or, if he can get one-quarter of his creditors holding one-third them very meritorious men, and some of them not so meritorious, and I in amount of his aebts to consent to it, he can get such dischari!:e Without any do not deny that their wishes ought to be taken into consideration, assets whatever; he pays only the costs of the proceeding. * * * I have never yet /."?lown a case where a bankrupt has tried to get the consent and fail.ed to do so. tb~t their necessities ought to be taken into consideration;· nor have This feature of the bankrupt law makes it just about as easy to now go through, I any doubt whatever that if we repeal this law, whenever the country on payml!nt of costs only, as it wa-s when the law was first enacted and discharges becomes deeply indebted again, whenever such a crisis takes place as were allowed on payment of only the costs. took place in 1873 or before that in 1837, there will be just as much The costs are dependent on the number of creditors, and are usually, in vol untary cases, somewhere about $100 to $125. A deposit is reqlilred, on filing the or more clamor for a bankrupt law as there is now for its repeal. petition, of 75 and the marshal's fees. For, Mr. President, ever since the discovery made in 1841, that it Parties can co1!W to my ojfice, at Freeport, to swear to their petitions and sched was competent for Congress to pass what is called a voluntary bank ules, or f?O to Chicago for that purpose, or swear to them before a United States commisSloner, as may be most convenient. rupt law-a thing never heard of before in any country, that I am Within the last few days there has been q;uite a rw;h of filing petitions, in antici aware of-that it was competent for Congress to pass a bankrupt law pation of the repeal, and it behooves those mterested to act promptly. So far as is and allow not only traders, but everybody of his own mere motion, possible the public, in m.y district, is herewith notified of the situation, and parties on the surrender of his effects, to be relievea :from the payment of mterested will govern themselves accordingly. . J. A. CRAIN, Register. his debts-ever since that I have never had any doubt that whenever the country became deeply indebted, or when a large body of the Mr. THURMAN. I ask that the motion of the Senator :from Iowa people of the country became deeply indebted, their appeals to Con may be read. gress would produce the enactment of a bankrupt law of that character: The Chief Clerk read as follows: and I have come to the conclusion that the legislation of this country That said bill and amendments be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary, in the future on this subject will somewhat bring us to the idea of the with instructions to report such amendments as will relieve the existing law of Hebrew jubilee, thefiftietbyear, when the debtors went free. We will the defects which experience has disclosed. not wait fifty years for that; only about fifteen or twenty years. Repeal Mr. THURMAN. I move to strike out all after the words "Com this law now, and there are meu in this Senn.te young enough to see mitt~e on the Judiciary," that part which gives instructions and another bankrupt law enacted and the debtors go :free, that is, to have insert: another year of jubilee, and when it shall have achieved its task, it And that said committee report the same, with such amendments as it may pro will be repealed, and some fifteen or twenty years after that another pose, ~o the Senate to-morrow. year of jubilee will be ordained. But so far as the present feelings Mr. EDMUNDS. Let me suggest to my honorable friend :from of the country are concerned, so far as the present opinion of the Ohio to say "day after to-morrow," because he may relllember that American people is concerned, it does seem to me, and I do not think there is a special meeting to-morrow for another purpose. I can be mistaken about it-1 think the vote in this Senate and the Mr. THURMAN. Yes, I will say day after to-morrow. Mr. Presi vote in the House of Repre~::~entatives show it-the present opinion of dent, if the motion of the Senator from Iowa- the country is adverse to the continuance of this law upon the statute. Mr. HOAR. I should like to have tb.e amendment of the Senator book. from Ohio re3.d. :from the Clerk's desk before the Senator addresses the Mr. President, I said that in 1873 we bad many appeals to us to re Senate. peal this law, and a bill actually passed the House for that purpose, The PRESIDENT pro tempm·e. The Senator from Ohio moves to and another one passed the House since that, and each time by large amend the instructions in the manner which will be reported. majorities. Now, I think it is pretty safe to say that the Honse of The CHIEF CLERK. It is proposed to strike out all after the word Representatives, so close to the people, understands the wishes of the "Judiciary" and insert: people pretty well, and would not from time to time send us bills And that said committee report the same, with such amendments as they may pa-ssed by immense majorities to repeal this law if that was not the propose, to the Senate the day after to-morrow_ sentiment of the country. I think it is also pretty certain that the Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, a vote in favor of the motion of Senate would not have voted as it did to repeal the law if Senators the Senator from Iowa to send the bill to the Judiciary Cominittee had not convinced themselves of the opinion of iihe country in re with instructions to amend the law as is contemplated in that mo spect to it. tion is a vote not to repeal tho bankrupt law. It would be an in Now let me say to those who think it such an easy thing for the struction of the Senate to the Judiciary Committee to attempt wbat Judiciary Committee to frame a bankrupt law which will satisfy that committee attempted four years ago; that is; to so amend the everybody, that if they will try to perform that task themselves they bankrupt law as to preserve it; and, consequently, the motion is will find they never entered upon a more difficult undertaking. I directly adverse to the bill which is now under consideration. The can say for myself, I can say for the chairman of the Judiciary Com bill proposes to repeal the law; the instruction of the Senator from mittee, I can say for another member of that committee, who was on Iowa proposes to preserve it with amendments. I cannot vote for the subcommittE}e which considered the subject then, and who re the instruction. I ca,nnot do so because I believe that the people of ported it to the whole committee, and who bestowed two months of Ohio are almost unanimously in favor of a repeal of the law. as diligent work as men ever performed in trying to so amend the I cannot do so for another reason. Four years ago, nen,rly five, we bankrupt law a.s to preserve it and to make it more beneficial and were flooded with petitions to repeal the bankrupt law. Those peti less harmful, I can say that no men ever did work harder than they tions did not come :from the class of persons that it is supposed are did; and if the law which now is on the statute-book, and which is adverse to a repeal to-day. The Senator from Massachusetts on my the bill as they amended it and reported it to the Senate, and which right and nearest to me [Mr. DAWES] spoke of the bankrupt law as passed without the dotting of an i or the crossing of a t, I believe, if it were particularly in the interest of the debtor and its preserva through this body and the House of Representatives, is as imperfec~ tion necessary for him. Now, sir, in December, 1873, when the House and bad as it has been described to be, I, for one, wish to say that I passed a bill to repeal the law, when we were flooded with petitions am wholly incompetent to perform that task which the Senator from for its repeal, almost all of them came from the debtors. The cred Iowa proposes to impose upon us. itors did not ask for the repeal. The debtors asked for it; and why I shall never undertake again to amend this law and make it satis did they ask for it 'f "Because," they said, "this bankrupt law factory either to the Senate or the House or the people. I would makes it impossible for us to make arrangements by which we can rather try to make a new one. Why, sir, take one provision in the carry on our business; we cannot borrow money and give security . amendment thn.t we reported, one great amendment that we reported, 2960 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. .APRIL 30, that of providing for a composition with the creditors, and which we my constituents and to what I believe to be the general popular sen borrowed from a recent British statute and which came ably com timent of the country, that I wish to repeal this law. I believe, how mended to us. This very day on this floor a Senator told me that ever, that I may live long enough if the law shall be repealed, as it that was what· ma-de the law so obnoxious, that that was utterly in probably will be, to fi.ndjustas muchclamorhereforanew bankrupt defensible, and yet I could show him in the committee-room letter law as there is now for the repeal of this one-that is, when times aft,er letter from lawyer after lawyer and judge after judge to the shall be such that the debtors will be sufficiently strong and suffi effect that that is theverybestfeaturein the law. So the profession ciently numerous to demand the enactment of such a law. differ, some of them thinking as the Senator who spoke to me thinks, Mr. President, there is one objection that occurred to me at first that that provision was just as bad as it could be and that it ought about referring this bill back to the Judiciary Committee; and that to be stricken out of the law; others that that is the very best provis is, that if it were referred back and they should frame amendments to ion in the law. it, (that is to the repealing bill,) as they no doubt would-for the bill But, sir, that is only one out of many things. The great objection is to some extent inartificial for the reasons stated by the Senator to this law that is usually urged is that nothing comes out of it to from New York-it would necessitate the bill going back to the House. the creditor; he gets absolutely nothing; it is all eaten up in costs But I think that the Senator from Michigan has demonstrated that and e:ipenses and he gets nothing. That is the great objection that is the amendment made by the House compels us to make other amend usually made to the law. ments, for, otherwise, the presumption might arise that from the There is an objection that is not publicly uttered. It may exist in enumeration of cases put by the House the cases not enumerated were the mind; it is no doubt in the minds of many of the creditor class excluded from the saving clause in the bill. Therefore, _the amend who are endeavoring to exact the last penny; and that is the volun ment made by the House makes it necessary that there should be the tary feature of the law. These men do not want a voluntary bank amendment of the Senator from Michigan or some similar amendment, rupt law at all: they want a real bankrupt law such as was known and, that being the case, as the bill will have to go back to the House to this country before the act of 184.1, when we had no bankrupt law anyhow, if the Senate should take this view of the subject and should bnt such as was known in England and on the continent of Europe. adopt the amendment of the Senator from Michigan or any similar That is what they want; a law wholly in the interest of the creditor; amendment, I feel indifferent whether we attempt to amend the bill but our bankrupt laws now and since the act of 1841 are almost here in the Senate, or whether we send it to the Judiciary Committee wholly in the interest of the debtor, as is supposed by many. with instructions to report it back day after to-morrow, which the Why, Mr. President, it would have very much surpris~d an English committee can very well do. man .or a subject of one of the continental powers of Europe, unac There would be one advantage in sending it to the committee, and quainted with our laws, to have heard what has been said on this that would be this: if sent to the committee and it should be the sense floor to-day in respect to a bankrupt law-to hear a bankrupt law of the Senate that the bill ought not to take effect instanter but ought spoken of as one of the beatitudes of the debtors of the country. to take effect at some future day, ninety day The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is an entirety. The motion to the Senator from Ohio [Mr. TIIURMAN] amending the instructions refer is only amendable by instructions, and it is moved to amend moved by the Senator from Iowa, [Mr. ALLISON.] the instructions. 1\fr. CONKLING. I vote "nay" as I vote against such instructions Mr. BAYARD. Is there not a motion pending before the Senate, in all ca.ses. offered by the Senator from Ohio, that the bill be committed without Mr. McCREERY. The two Senat.ors from Florida are paired on instructions f this question. The junior Senator' [Mr. JONES] is in favor of the Mr. THURMAN. No; I can tell my friend exactly how the ques repeal of the bankrupt law and the senior Senator [Mr. CoxOVERl is tion stands. ThA Senator from North Carolina [Mr. MERRil\fON] opposed to the repeal. moved to refer the bill to the Committee on the J udici'ary. That was 1\ir. BAILEY. l\!ay I ask a question f I understand that if the all of his motion. The Senator from Iowa [Mr. ALLISON] moved to amendment to the amendment as now voted upon shall be carried, amend the motion by giving instructions to amend and perfect the still the question will be before the Senate upon the adoption of tho bankrupt law. Such is the effect of his amendment. I move to strike amendment as amended. out the instxuctions really of the Senator from Iowa and insert in The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator is correct. lieu of those instructions an instruction to report the bill with such Mr. BAILEY. Then I vote "yea." amendments as the committee may deem proper to propose on Thurs The result was announced-yeas 19, nays 34; as. follows: day next. My amendment is the pending question, and is plainly YEAS-19. indivisible. Anthony, Butler, Johnston, Ransom, Mr. HOWE. Mr. President, I should not say a word if it did not Bailey, Da.viB of W. Va., McPherson, Saulsbury, seem to me that there is a misunderstanding as to the particular vote Bayard, Dorsey, Merriman, Thurman, Booth, Eustis, Mitchell, Voorhees • . we should give to reach a particular result. The Senator from Iowa, Burnside, Grover, Morrill, if I understood him, moved his instructions with a view of testing NAYS-34. the sense of the Senate as to whether it wants an amended bankrupt Allison, Conkling, Hoar, Plumb, law preserved or not. Beck, Dawes, Howe, Rollins, Mr. ALLISON. I did that, the Senator will allow me to say, in Bruce, Eaton, Kirkwood, Sargent, view of the fact that the Senator from Illinois said that the Judiciary Cameron of Pa., Edmunds, McCreery, Saunders, Cameron of Wis., Ferry, McMillan, Wailleigh, Committee did not wish to take the labor of proparin'g an amend Chaffee, Garland, Matthews, Wallace, ment if the sentiment of the Senate was adverse to amendment. Christi11ncy, Harris, Maxey, Winuom. Tkerefore I wanted to test the sense of the Senate. Cockrell Hereford, Oglesby, Uoke, ' Hill . l\ir. HOWE. Precisely; and I think the motion of the Senator I PaddocK., from Iowa is admirably calculated to get at the sense of the Senate AllSENT-23. on that point; but it seems to me that purpose is flanked completely Armstrong, Gordon, Kernan, Sharon, Bamnm, Hamlin, Lamar, Spencer, by the amendment proposed by the Sena.tor from Ohio, provided that Blaine, Ingalls, McDonald, Teller, amendment be agreed to ; and I suppose that is his intention, for 1 Conover, Jones of Florida, Morgan, take it no one understands that an amended bankmpt law can bQ Davis of lll., Jones of Nevada, Patterson. ~th;:~. reported back here on Thursday next. Those who think we should Dennis, Kellogg, Randolph, have an amended bankrupt law and hold on to it, it seems to me, So the amendment to the amendment was rejected. should vote against the amendment of the Senator from Ohio and for The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The question recurs on the amend th"motion of the Senator from Iowa. I make this suggestion because ment proposed uy the Senator from Iowa [1\Ir. ALLISON] to the motion I beaJ' others al.>out me say that they are afraid, if they do not vote for to refer. the amendment of the Senator from Ohio, they will not get any refer 1\Ir. INGALLS. Let it be reported. ence at alL I do not see what anybody wants with a reference if we The PRESIDENT pro tempo're. It will be again reported. are to have the bill reported back on Thursday next. Every amend The CHIEF CLEBK. It is proposed to add to the motion to refer: ment that is necessary for repeal is right here before the Senate With instructions to report such amendments as will relieve the existing law of · now. the defects which experience has disclosed. I am myself quite indifferent as to what the Senate may finally Mr. EATON. We shall want the yeas and nays also upon that determine as to the vote on the bankrupt law. I never was more question. evenly divided, I think, upon any question of legislation which has Mr. INGALLS. I ask for a division of the question. ueen before us during my time; and I think the people of Wisconsin, Mr. THURMAN. There can be no division yet. If the amendment if I can judge anything from what they have said to me, are just shall be a-dopted, then there may be a division, and the question be about as evenly divided us I am myself. I have been urged by mer taken fu-st on the motion to refer without instructions. chants, by bankers, by farmers, by debtors, by creditors, both to Mr. CONKLING. Oh, no. support the repeal and to oppose the repeal. I have not taken a Mr. INGALLS. It is subject to division now. It contains two census of either class and I have not figured up very accurately on propositions, and nnder the rules it can plainly oo divided. my own judgment. I do sa;v, as others have said before, that I think 1\lr. THURMAN. The question now is on the adoption of the amend a sound bankrupt law would be a part of the necessary polity of every ment. There is a simple motion t.o refer and a motion to amend that commercial nation, and I have that eou:fidence in the profession to motion by adding instructions. The question now is, will the Se!!ate believe that if we have constancy we can get some time or other a add the instructiollS f There is nothing to divide about it. sonnd bankrupt law on our statute-book; so that, if there is a dispo Mr. CONKLING. That is a mere matter of fact, I suggest. Doos sition here to make one more effort at amendment, I shall acquiesce the Senator from Iowa move as a substitute to refer with instruc in that effort. Therefore I think I myself shall vote against the tions! amendment proposed by the Seuator from Ohio and vote for the The PRESIDENT p1·o tempm·e. No, simply to amend. propositiou•moved by the Senator from Iowa. Mr. THURMAN. The motion to refer was made by the Senator The PRESIDENT pro tempore. . The question is on the amendment from North Carolina [Mr. l\lERRil\ION] and the Senator from Iowa of the Senator from Ohio to the amendment of the Senator from Iowa, moved to add instructions. on which t.he yeas and nays have been ordered. 1\Ir. CONKLING. Then the Senator is clearly right. I understood The Secretary proceeded to call the roll. the mot.ion to be an entire motion to refer with instructions. Mr. EDMUNDS, (when the name of Mr. DAVIS, of Illinois, was Mr. THURMAN. No. called.) The Senator from Illinois [Mr. DAVIS] was obliged to leave Mr. INGALLS. It is, as I understand, a full resolution in the hand the Chamber and is paired upon this question with the Senator from writin.[! of the Senator from Iowa to refer with instructions. Indiana, [1\fr. McDONALD,] and requested me to say so. The Senator Mr. '.rHURMAN. No; only the instructions. from Illinois would vote in favor of having the bill reconsidered by The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from North Carolina the Committee on the Judiciary with a view to amendment. As to made a motion to refer and the Senator from Iowa moved to amend this particular form of the question, I do not know how he would vote. the motion. The question is upon the amendment proposed by the Mr. McDONALD. The understanding is that whenever I feel in Senator from Iowa. If that amendment be adopted, the question will clined to vote one way, I shall take it for granted the Senator f1·om then recur upon the motion of the Senator from North Carolina as lllinoi.M would vote the other way, and I am not to vote at all. amended by the Senate. Mr. INGALLS, (when his name was called.) 'l'ho Senator from Mr. THURl\lAN. I wish to say one word. The remark made by my Louisiana [Mr. KELLOGG] left the chamber a few moments ago, and friend from Kentucky a while ago in regard to another amendment requeMt.ed me to pair with him during his absence. He informed me is equally applicable to this. I moved to strike out the amendment that he would vote against the motion to refer. of the Senator from Iowa and require the Committee on the J udici Mr. TELLER, (when his name was called.) I am paired with the ary to report the repeal bill back with such amendments to the repeal Senator from South Carolina, [Mr. PATTERSON.] I should vote against bill as they might see fit by Thursday next-not amendments to the the amendment to the amendment, if he were present. · bankrupt law, but amendments to the repeal bill. The instructions Mr. JOHNSTON, (when t.he name of l\1r. WITHERS was called.) I now moved require the Judiciary Committee to go to work and cu.re wish to announce that my colleague [Mr. WITHERS] is detained at all the defects iu the existing bankrupt act, and that means not to his home by sickness, and is unable to ho in his seat. repeal the act at all. The Secretary concluded the call of t.he roll. Mr. BAYARD. And by next Thursday 7 Mr. CONKLiNG. Is this a vote on the instruction, will the Chair Mr. THURMAN. Not by next Thursday, but at this session. To be kind enough to state ·J I was iu committee. vote for the instructions of the Senator from Iowa is to vote against The PRESIDENT p1·o tempm·e. Tho vote is on the ameooment of repealing the bankrupt act. .. 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 2963 Mr. COCKRELL. I a-sk for the yeas and nays upon that question. The CHIEF CLERK. It is·proposed to add to the motion to refer the The :yeas and nays were ordered. following words: }fr. CHRISTIANCY. I agree entiL·ely with t,he Senator from Ohio. With instructions ~ report the same, with such amendments as they ·may pro Those who wish to prevent the repeal of the bankrupt law of course pose, to the Senate ou Thursday next. will vote for the amendment of the Senator from Iowa. Those who The PRESIDENT p1'o tempo1'e. The question is on agreeing to this are for the repeal will naturally vote against it. amendment. Mr. INGALLS. I wish to understand this question. Whichever The CHIEF CLERK. So that, if the motion to refer be agreed to, it way the vote results on the amendment, does not the question then will read: · t·ecur on the motion to refer with instructions! That said bill and amendments be referred to the Committee on the Judiciary Mr. ALLISON. Or without instructions if my amendment is voted with instructions to report the same with such amendments as they may propose, down. to the Senate, on Thur3da.y next. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. If the amendment of t.he Senator The PRESIDENT pro ternpm·e. The question is on agreeing to t.his from Iowa be voted down, the question will then be on the motion to amendment. refer simply. If the amendment be auopted, the question will be Mr. COCKRELL. I call for the yeas and nays. upon the reference with instructions, as proposed by the Senator from The yeas and nays were ordered. Iowa. In both cases there will be two questions. The question now Mr. MORRILL. I shaH very cheerfully vote to refer this bill to is upon the amendment of the Senator from Iowa to the motion to the committee, but I think it ought to be referred to them without refer, which is to add instructions as he has proposed, on which the any instructions whatever. It seems as though it was an eminently yeas and nays have been ordered. proper case to be considered. After certainly some confusion in rela The Secretary proceeded to call the roll. tion to the proper repeal of the law and the expressions of opinions Mr. EDMUNDS, (when the name of Mr. DAVIS1 of lllinois. was that have been given here, it is not a. clear question that the proposi called.) The Senator from Illinois [Mr. DAVIS] is paired with the tion which has been made is sufficient to answer the purpose after Senator from Indiana [Mr. McDONALD.] The Senator from Illinois all. I hop·e, therefore, it will be referred to the committee without would vote in favor of this :proposition and the Senator from Indiana any instructionR. would vote against it, I suppose. Mr. CONKLING. I understand this motion to be to instruct the Mr. INGALLS, (when his name was called.) Upon this question committee to report the bill back day after to-morrow, perfecting the I am paired with the Senator from Louisiana, [Mr. KELLOGG.] He saving clause f would vote against the reference. The PRESIDENT pro ten~pore. With such amendments as the com Mr. McDONALD, (when his name wa-s called.) As has been stat-ed, mittee may deem fit. I am paired with the Senator from Illinois, [Air. DAVIS.] If he were Mr. EDMUNDS. That is what is meant. here, I should vote "nay." Mr. CONKLING. I wish to say that I cannot vote for it, although Mr. TELLER, (when his name was called.) On this question I am that is precisely what I should like to see occur; and as my s~atement paired with the Senator from South Carolina, [Mr. PATIERSON.] If may seem a .paradox, I will say that I can conceive of no instance in he were present, I should vote "nay." which the Senate should instruct, as I believe it never has instructed, The roll-call having been concluded the result was announced a committee of the Senate in this way. There is an implication which, it seems to me, is entirely inadmissible. I think I may say that I yeas 181 nays 36 ; as follows : YEA~18. know that if this were referred to the Judiciary Committee tha.t com Allison, Dorsey, Kirkwood, Sargent, mittee would report it back promptly; but to order the committee to Ant.hony, Edmunds, McMillan, Saunders, report day after to-morrow implies one of two things, either that they Burnside, Hamlin, Matthews, Windom. Chaffee, Hoar, Merrimon, are to make report before they can do so properly and conscientiously, Da.wes, Howe, Ransom, or that without such instruction they would be derelict and would N.AYS--36. not promptly make report as soon as they should. I cannot vote for Bailey Cockrell, Harris, Oglesby, either theory. I believe this bill should go to the committee. The vote Bayard, Coke, H ereford, Paddock, has shown again to-day that the Senate is determined to repeal the Beck, Conkling, Hill Plumb, bankrupt law. What committee would be contumacious or absurd Booth, Davis of W.Va., Joru;ston, Rollins, enough to attempt by holding the bill to thwart that purpose T As is Bruce, Eaton, McCreery, Saulsbury, Butler, Eustis, McPherson, Thurman, suggested to me, it has been voted down; and that is a very good Cameron of Pa., Ferry, Maxey, Voorhees, reminder that I ought not to multiply words about it, and I will not Cameron of Wis., Garland, Mitchell, W~:lleigh, do so; but I submit to all Senators, however eager they may be to Christiancy, Grover, Morrill, Wal.la.ce. dispose of the bankrupt law, that even time will be consulted by allow .ABSENT-22. ing this to go to the committee and have a report made which will Armstrong, Gordon, Lamar, Spencer,, accomplish the object effectually. Here we adopt an amendment Barnum, Ingalls, McDonald, Teller, Bla.ine, Jones of Florida, Morgan, Whyte, anew, and it goes back to the House. Suppose the amendment hap Conover, Jones of Nevada, Patterson, Withers. pens to be unsatisfactory when you come to examine it, then delay Davis of Illinois, Kellogg, Randolph, occurs in the House. So that, absolutely in expediting the repeal, we Dennis, Kernan, Sharon, had better do it in the regular way; but a-s I say, I will not multiply So the amendment was rejected. words about it. I would vote for the instructions but that I think it The PRESIDENT pro tentp01·e. The question recurs on the motion unseemly and unfair to instruct a committee in this way. made by the Senator from North Carolina, [Mr. MERRL'I:ON1] that the Mr. RANSOM. :Mr. President, I am opposed to the repeal of the bill, with the amendments of the House of Representatives, be re bankrupt law; I desire to see it amended. The vote upon the amend ferred to the Committee on the Judiciary, on which the yeas and nays ment of the Senator from Iowa [Mr. ALLISON] satisfied me that the have been ordered. . Senate would not refer the bill to the committee with instructions to Mr. ED:MUNDS. I suggest to the Senator from Ohio, judging from amend the law generally. I thought from the character of the v-ote the state of these two votes, that if he were now to make his motion given upon the amendment of the Senator from Ohio [Mr. THURMAN] as an independent one, as an amendment to the motion to refer to that there was a mistake upon the question, and that gentlemen that committee or some other to perfect this saving clause, he would divided upon that vote who hold the same views. For instance, the probably have no difficulty in carrying it, with instructions to report Senator from Iowa and I who agree in the general policy voted on day aft.er to~morrow. different sides of the amendment of the Senator from Ohio, and that Mr. THURMAN. I got little encouragement in my former attempt, amendment was defeated. Then the amendment of the Senator from aU.hough I can stand being in the minority as well as any other man, Iowa was defeated. It then occurred to me that gentlemen who having had lat·ge experience in that way. were willing to refer to the committee with that instruction and gen· Mr. RANSOM. I hope the Senator from Ohio will renew his amend tlemen who desired the law to be amended could unite upon the amend ment, for I am satisfied that a number of votes were given upon it ment of the Senator from Ohio after the defeat of the amendment of before under a mistake. I think his amendment would now prevail. the Senator from Iowa · that we might take a. last chance at getting Mr. THURMAN. The Senator may renew it. some improvement on this legislation before the J uuicia.ry Committee, Mr. RANSOM. I will renew it with the consent of the Senator and with that view I renewed the amendment of the Senator from from Ohio. Ohio. But I see it has not met with the concurrence I supposed it Mr. PADDOCK. I voted against the amendment of the Senator would from gentlemen with whom I thought I agreed. That being from Ohio and I shall' continue to do so. I shall also continue to vote the case, I do not care to take up the time of the Senate with having against the motion to refer, because I beUeve that the Senate is com the vote repeated again, anu I am willing to withdraw the amend· Jletent to consider the bill and settle the .question one way or the ment. other to-day. I believe that the condition of the country to-day is Tne PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. With the permission of the Senate such as to demand of the Senate that t.his matter shall be settled the motion may be withdrawn, the yeas and nays having been orc.lered. definitely one way or the other this very day before the Senate ad Is there objection f · journs. Mr. HAMLIN. Yes; objection is made. The PRESIDENT pro temp01·e. The Senator from North Carolina The PRESIDEN'l' pro tmnpm·e. Objection being made, the amend [Mr: RANSOM] moves as an amendment that the committee be in ment cannot be withdrawn. structed to report day after to-morrow, using the language of the Mr. EDMUNDS. I am not quite able to agree with the Senator former amendment of tbe Senator from Ohio, as the Chair understands. from New YOi'k in respect of the i.m plication in this instruction. The Mr. RANSOM. Yes, just the same. Committee on the Judiciary as well as many other committees of this The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be reported. body, is overloaded with business. An instruction, therefore, tore- 2964 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. APRIL 30, port this particular measure in two days I construe merely to be an The PRESIDENT p1·o tempore. The question now is-- instruction that we should act upon this in preference to other meas Mr. EDMUNDS. I move to refer.this bill, with the amendments, ures that the House has already sent to us, and not as an implication to a special committee of which the Senator from Michigan [Mr. that we should undertake to pocket the bill if it were sent to the CHRISTIANCY] shall be chairman, so that the friends of the bill shall committee. And in respect to what baa been the practice, I think not have any fears about its being swamped-a special committee of that in the earlier history of the Senate it will be found, although I three, which will l>e enough probably to perfect this matter of the am not perfectly sure of it, that it was a frequent motion to refer to saving clause. . a committee with instructions to report on a certain day, for the pur The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from Vermont moves pose of fixing details. But my friend says that he thinks I am mistaken that the hill and amendments be referred to a special committee of about that. Perhaps I am; I think I am not; but the substance of three, of which the Senator from Michigan shall be chairman. the thing is clearly now that the Senate desires to repeal this law in Mr. McMILLAN. I hope no such reference will be mane after the toto j it desires to repeal it with such a saving clause as will save all vote refusing to refer to the Judiciary Committee. That committ,ee rights on every side. Everybody seems to agree to that. There is has had charge of the bill at all its stages; and if it is to be perfected difficulty, as the House baa found and as the Senator from Michigan in a committee it should be perfected by that committee. I certainly in charge of the bill has found, in undertaking to make an additional shall oppose any reference to a special committee. amendment in arranging the phraseology. Now, then, it plainly, I Mr. CHRISTIANCY. I am also opposed to the motion. For myself . think, is better to send it to some committee, a special committee or I would have preferred to have bad this bill referred back to the J n some other, and in an hour's quiet discussion over the difficulties of diciary Committee; bot 1 saw that there was generally among those the point, each member being able to see exactly in writing what is who favored the repeal of the act an indisposition to send it back to proposed, the matter can be put in a shape that will be satisfactory the committee. I have felt somewhat embarrassed. Inclividuallv I to everybody. Done here, I confess that I am not able to appreciate would rather it should go back to the Committee on the Judiciary all the dangers and all the slips that would be left in the law as pro now, bot if it is not to go to the Judiciary Committee I prefer that posed by the House, and as proposed by the Senator from Michigan. it should be referred to some committee of which I should not be a Perhaps they would turn out to be imaginary; but I am very strongly member. impressed with the notion that both with the Honse amendment, Mr. EDMUNDS. I made the motion for this reason: in the time I which is plainly insufficient, as has been stat.ed by the Senator from have bad to look at the Honse amendments and the original bill and Michigan, and wit.h his also, there would be found to be two or three the amendments ro be proposed l>y my friend from Michigan, I am wide gaps that would still have to be covered. That is my reason for satislied in my own mind that whatever is done here and now in the voting in favor of this reference, with a distinct understanding that way of amendments, as far as they have been suggested, will, instead the committee will take it up in preference to everything else and of helping matters, only leave them as bad as confessedly they are report it day after to-morrow, with whatever light we can throw upon now. I do not wish to be responsible for that; aud with the best it, be it much or little. efforts that I can make in the method that we have here of perfect The PRESIDENT pro ternpore. The question is on the ·amendment ing such language, I ca.o contribute nothing affirmatively. I can find of the Senator from North Carolina, [Mr. RANSOM,] upon which the fault with what is proposed; I can find fault sincerely; I can raise yea.s and nays have been ordered. objections and difficulties; but I should not be able on the spur of the The Secret.a.ry proceeded to call the roll. moment to supply the language that I should believe myself would Mr. INGALLS, (when his name was called.) I am paired with the be sure to cure them. Therefore my mot,iou is ma-de in perfect good Senator from Louisiana, [Mr. KELLOGG.) faith and with entire respect to the Senate, and particularly to my 1\ir. TELLER, (when his name was called.) On this question I am friend from Michigan. I sn~gested him as the chairman of the com paired with the Senator from South Carolina., [Mr. PATTERSON.] If mittee because he 1 eported the bill and had charge of it; and it is fit, be were present, I should vote "nay." therefore, if the Senate is willing to have this saving clause made The roll-call having been concluded, the result was announced right by a careful study of it for a few hours by a committee of its yeas Zl, nays 27; as follows: own selection. that he should be at the head of that committee. YEAS-27. Mr. ALLISON. I think we can get over the difficulty very easily .Allison, Cameron of Wis., Grover, Ransom, by adjourning now, and that will allow the Judiciary Committee in Anthony, Chaffee, Hamlin, Sar~rent. formally to look into the matter to-morrow morning. llayat·d, Clrristiancy, Hoar, Saulsbury, Mr. EDMUNDS. We should not undertake to take any jurisdic B•10th, Davi~:~ of ,V. Va., llowe, Saunders, Bruce, Dorsey, Kirkwood, 'l'hurman, tion over it after the vote of the Senate. Burnside, Edmunds, McPh· rson, Windom. Mr. ALLISON. I move that the Senate do now adjourn. Entler, Eustis, MeiT~on, Mr. SARGENT. We ought to have these amendments printed, m: NAYS-27. we shall he no farther ahead to-morrow th:tn we are now. :Bailey, Eaton, Matthews, Paddock, The PRESIDENT pro tempo1·e. If there be no objeetion the order Deck, :Ferry Maxey, Plumb, to print will be made. ["Agreed."] Cameron of Pa., Garla~d, Mc•'reery, Hollins, Coclu:ell, Ranis, · McMillan, Voorhees, Mr. MATTHEWS. Will the Senator from Iowa withdraw his mo Coke, Hereford, Mit Mr. SAMPSON. I think there should be some discussion on it. I any practice different in the House that the Chair is aware of. If move to reconsider the vote ordering the main question. the motion to reconsider the vote by which the main question was The SPEAKER. The Chair entertains that motion. ordered upon the engrossment and third reading of the bill shall not Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I desire to mako one or two remarks be carried, then the Chair will recognize the gentleman from Ala in explanation of the bill, and I promise to be brief. bama, [Mr. HEWITT. J Mr. SAMPSON. Is the motion to reconsider debatable f Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. Then all I have to say is that I hope The . SPEAKER. Tho gentleman from Iowa [Mr. SAMPSON) has the Honse will not reconsider. been recognized to move to reconsider the vote by which the inain Mr. SAMPSON. This is a bill granting land to a railroad company, question was ordered. and I think the House should have an opportunity to fully conside1· it. ::dr. SAMPSON. Is that motion debatable T Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I say it makes no appropriation of The SPEAKER. It is not debatable. 'l'he gentleman from Alabama land to a railroad company. [Mr. HEWITT] desires to be heard by consent before the Chair submits The question was taken upon the motion to reconsider; and upon that motion to the Honse. a division there were-ayes 92, noes 74. Mr. ATKINS. I rise to a parliamentary inquiry. "\Vas it not under Before the result of this vote was announced, Rtood when this order was made the other day that the business should Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama, called for tellers. be transacted without debate! The question was taken upon ordering tellers, and there were 30 in The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks not. This bill comes over from the affirmative. last night. The main question having been ordered on it, it comes So (the affirmative being one-fifth of a quorum) tellers were orde:ed; up this morning as unfinished business. and Mr. HEWITT1 of Alabama, and Mr. tiAMPSON were appointed. Mr. SAMPSON. If the motion to reconsider is not debatable, I a-sk The House agam divided; and the tellers reported that there were for a vote. ayes 81, noes 62. 1\Ir. ATKINS. Is it too late to raise the question of consideration, No further count being called for, the motion to reconsider was so that we may proceed to something else f agreed to. The SPEAKER. The main question has been ordered, and the gen The SPEAKER. The question now recurs upon ordering the main tleman from Iowa has moved to reconsider the vote ordering the question upon the engrossment and third reading of the bill. main question. Zllr. BEEBE. Pending that, is it in order to move to recommit this Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. Is not that a debatable motion Y bill' - . The SPEAKER. It is not. . The SPEAKER. It will be, if the main question is not ordered. .Mr. BUTLER. I rise to a point of order. Mr. BEEBE. Then I make that motion. Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I did not yield the floor to the gen l\Ir. HEWITT, of Alabama. I claim the floor. . tleman from Iowa to make his motion. Mr. SAMPSON. I claim the floor, Mr. Speaker, having submitted The SPEAKER. The motion made by the gent.leman from Iowa the motion to reconsider the main question, which has been carried. is a privileged one; and the motion to reconsider is not debatable if The SPEAKER. The question recurs upon ordering the main ques the question proposed to be reconsidered is not debatable. tion upon the engrossment and third reading of the bill. That must Mr. HEWITT, of Alab:una. But I rose for the purpose of discuss be decided before any member can take the .fl.oor for debate. ing this question upon the passage of the bill. The question was taken, and the main question was not ordered. The SPEAKER. The main question was ordered and all debate Mr. BEEBE. Is a motion to recommit the bill to the Committee on was cot off. The gentleman had no right to rise for the purpose of Public Lands now in orderY · debate. . The SPEAKER. It is. Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I was entitled to my hour, having Mr. BEEBE. Then I make that motion. reported the bill. Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I rise for the purpose of discussing The SPEAKER. The Clerk will readRule 49. that question. The Clerk read as follows : Mr. SAMPSON. I claim the right to be recognized, having made When a motion bas be£>n once made, and carried in the affirmative or n£>gative, the motion which t.he House has agreed to, divesting this bill of the it shall be in order for any member of the majority to move for the reconsirleration operation of the previous question. thereof on the same or succeeding day; and such motion shall take precedence·of The SPEAKER. 'Phe Clerk will read Rule 124. all other questions, except a. motion to a{)jonrn, and shall not be withdrawn after tl1e The Clerk read as follows : said succeeding day without the consent of the House; and lhereafter any member may call it up for consideration. After commitment and report thereof to the House, or at any time before its pas a;?;e, a· hill may be r£>committed; and shoul The SPEAKER. It is not debatable. and judicial appropriation bill is the unfinished business before the Themot1on to lay on thetab1ethemotion toreconsiderwasagreed to. Committee of the Whole, and is therefore entitled to preference. Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I now move t.hat t,be House go into Mr. HOOKER. But the majority of the Committee of the Whole Committee of the Whole for the purpose of considering this bill. bas the right to determine what business it will consider. I object The SPEAKER. The first part of the motion of the gentleman to the consideration of the legislative appropriation bill, and hope from Alabama is in order; the second is not. that the committee will take up the bill of the gentleman from Ala Mr. SAMP~ON. I call for the regular order. bama. Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I have one remark to make-- The CHAIRMAN. Objection being made, the question is: will the Mr. REAGAN. I hope we shall have a mo-.:ning hour this morning. committee proceed to consider the legislative, executive, and judicial Mr. HEWITT, of Alabama. I remember distinctly t.hat during appropriation bill f this session a motion was made to go into Committee of the Whole Mr. HALE. And that question is not debatable. for the purpose of taking up a particular bill, no objection having The CHAIRMAN. The question of priority of business is not de been ma and that committee authorized me yesterday to report the bill as it handsomest buildings in the city of New Orleans, and if coinage is came from the Senate,-appropriating the sum of $75,000 to make the conducted there the operations of that mint will confer great com necessary repairs on the mint at New Orleans. mercial facilities not only upon the city of New Orleans, but the Sir, this question baa been as fully considered, as regularly con people through the whole Mississippi Valley will feel its beneficent sidered as any question of like importance that ever arose in the influence. American Congress. Mr. HANNA. Just one word more. Now what do I propose to do here in addition to the amount thus Mr. CONGER. I desire to be heard on the point of order. The 1. appropriated f I propose to authorize simply the payment of the gentleman from Indiana. has spoken once. , salaries of the necessary officers and workmen, and to provide for The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would suggest that any debate must the various appliances for conducting coinage in that city. The be confined to the point of order. same is done iu New York; the same is done in Philadelphia.; the Mr. HANNA. I merely wish to make a suggestion. I do not desire same is done in Carson City, and in San Francisco. What, therefore, to say a word in discussing the comparative merits of these various is extraordinary in this f Why, sir, the Director of the Mint sent a localities. The point of order I wish to have brought distinctly to special agent to investigate the condition of the mint at New Orleans. the mind of the Chair is this: I say that the amendment proposed I hold his report in my hand. The amount in comparison with the is in practical e1fect a substitution of the bill which passed the Sen great public object to be accomplished by conducting coinage at New ate, and is now in the hands of the Committee on Coinage. Weights, Orleans is really insignificant. and Measures; and it does seem to me, with all due respect to my Mr. ALDRICH. I rise to a question of parliamentary inquiry. friend from Louisiana, that the practical effect of adoptinO' his amend The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman cannot do that while the gen ment is to forestall legislation upon these matters, and that I do say tleman from Louisiana is upon the floor. ought not to be done. Mr. ALDRICH. Then I call the gentleman from Louisiana to order Mr. GIBSON. I would like to ask the gentleman a question. Does as he is not discussing tqp point of order, but the merits of the propo- not the gentleman know that the Committee on Coinage, 'Veights, sition. · and Measures bas agreed unanimously to report this bill favorably; Mr. GIBSON. I am endeavoring to reply as briefly and as clearly the bill which passed the Senate unanimously T aa I can to the objections made by the gentleman on the other side. Mr. HANNA. I do not know what that committee ha~tM.etermined The CHAIRMAN. The Chair would suggest to the gent-leman from upon and I have no right to know until it makes its report. Louisiana to confine his remarks to the point of order. Mr. SAYLER. I desire to say a word on the point of order. Mr. GIBSON. The point of order was made that this was not a Mr. CONGER. I raised the point of order myself and I have bad mint under the law; that the object of this amendment was to form no opportunity to speak·to it. new legislation. Nay more than this, the gentleman insinuated this The CHAmMAN. The Chair will hear the gentleman from Mich was an attempt to forestall action in this House; that under the igan. shield and cover of an appropriation bill an attempt was being made Mr. CONGER. I raised the point of order so that the gentleman here to forestall the action of this House and inject into an appro offering the amendment might state whether existing laws recognize priation bill _new legislation for the purpose of founding a mint in a mint at New Orleans; whether providing for the usual officers of a New Orleans with a view to defeat purposes which the gentleman mint there was in accordance with existing laws; or whether this and others may have in other parts of the country to get legislation was new legislation. Now, if there be a mint at New Orleans and to establish mints in their cities or States. Sir, I repudiate this en if the nsnal officers for a mint at New Orleans are not provided for tirely. If the gentleman knew me better, if be knew the Representa in this bill, I do not claim that it is new legislation to provide for tives who compose the Committee of Finance in the Senate, or of the them, whether they have been left out by inadvertence or by design. Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Measures in this House, he But if there be no mint there organized ; if this is the establishment would be loath to make an insinuation which is as unbecoming to him of a mint instead of an assay office as this bill provides for, then ib as it is unjust to me. will be new legislation. It was because I did not know what the law The CHAffiMAN. The gentleman'!'! time bas expired. was upon that subject that I suggested to the Chair that it was new :Mr. GIBSON. I will read the Jaw. legislation. The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman's time has expired. Now I understand the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. GIBSON] to Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I rise, Mr. Chairman, to a parlia read from the law which is unrepealed, as I understand him, to claim mentary inquh·y, and it is this: that where a point of order is being the establishment of a mint at New Orleans and to claim that the discussed the five-minute rule does not apply. officers provided for in this amendment are the proper legal officers Mr. MAISH. I rise to debate the point of order and will yield my of this institution. If that be so, I cannot insist upon the point of time to the ~entleman from Louisiana.. order that it is new legislation. · The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will recognize the gentleman from Mr. GlBSON. This appropriation for the officers of the mint at Louisiana. in the time of the gentleman from Pennsylvania. New Orleans meets the concul'rence of the Director of the Mint and Mr. GIBSON. I have no desire to occupy one moment of the atten is based upon the report of an agent of the Director of the Mint who tion of this Honse unnecessarily, and I feel in replying to the ol;>jec recommends the appointment of these officers at the salaries I have tion-- named. Mr. ATKINS. I do not believe the five-minute rule does apply to Here the committee informally rose; and Mr. CALDWELL, of Ten discussion on the point of order. nessee, took the chair for the purpose of receiving a Mr. GIBSON. I havenodesiretooccupyforonemomenttbeatten tion of this Honse unnecessarily. I come before it always with great MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE. reluctance, but I believe it to be my duty not only as a representative A message from the Senat-e, by Mr. SYMPSON, one of its clerks, of New Orleans, but as a member of this Congress, interested not informed the House that the Senate bad pa-ssed, with amendments in only-- which the concurrence of the House wa-s requested, the bill (H. R. No. Mr. BUCKNER. I insist, Mr. Chairman, that the gentleman from 3969) regulating the appointment of justices of tbe peace, commis Louisiana must address his remarks to tho point of order and not to sioners of deeds, and constables within and for the District of Co the merits of the proposition. lumbia, and for other purposes. Mr. GIBSON. It is important to the people of the country this The message further announced that the Senate bad passed without coinage should be conducted in the city of New Orleans. The gen amendment a joint resolution and bills-of the House of the follow tleman stated, if I understood him correctly, we had ample mint facil ing titles: ities for the production of coin in the country. He labors nlider a 'Ihe joint resolution (H. R. No.158) for the erection of a monument great mistake. The production of bullion in this country is about over the grave of Thomas Jefferson; $50,000,000 of gold and $40,000,000 of silver. The bill (H. R. No. 1639) making an appropriation for pier-ligltt.s Mr. DUNNELL. Is the gentlemon discussing the point of order or at the entrance of the jetties in the Sout.h Pass of the Mississippi the merits of the proposition f · River; The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman must confine his remarks to the The bill (H. R. No.1780) granting a pension to William L. Davis, point of order. la.te private in Company E, Thirty-first Illinois Infantry Volunteers; Mr. GIBSON. I will content myself, then, by merely reading the '],'he bill (H. R. No. l&rr) to extend the provisions of section 3297 law as it stands npon the statute-book. I read section 3495: of the Revised Statutes to other institutions of learning; and SEC. 3495. The different mints and assay offices shall be known a.s The bill (H. R. No. 38..~9) for the relief of Silas M. Norton, post First. The mint of the United States at Philadelphia. master at Bristol, Connecticut. Second. The mint of the United States at San Francisco. The message further announced that the Senate bad passed bills of Third. The mint of the United States at New Orleans. Fourth. The mint of the United States at Carson. the following titles; in which the concurrence of the House was re Fifth. The mint of the United States at Denver. quested: Sixth.. The United States assay office at New York. A bill (S. No. 27) for the relief of Amos B. FergUSBon; Seventh. The United States assay office at Boise City, Idaho. A bill (S. No. 893) to authorize the Secretary of the Treasury to Eighth. The United States assay office at Charlotte, North Carolina. examine the evidence of payments made by the State of Missouri In addition I may be permitted to state that the city of New Or since April17, 1S66, to the officers and privates of the militia forces Jeans in 1834 donated to the l<~ederal Government a handsome square of said State for military services actually performed in the snpprt'R in the front part of the city, looking ont upon the Mississippi River, sion of the rebellion in full concert and co-operation with the author valued at that time at half a million of dollars, to establish a mint of ities of the United States and subject to their orders, and to make the United States. The mint to-day is one of the largest, one of the- report thereof to Congress; 1878. ,CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 2969 ;... biJl (S. No. 1066) for the relief of Donghty & Card; Now, the law provides that certain offices shall exist, and that A bill (S. No. 106!:1) for the relief of T. B. Kelly; excludes the idea that others shall exist unless special legislation is A bill (S. No. 1071) for the relief of settlers on the public lands; bad. Let us see what new offices are proposed by the gentleman from A bill (S. No. 1073) granting lands to the State of Minnesota in lien Louisiana: first, a cashier ; next, a chief clerk; next, a weigh clerk; of certain lands bert'ltofore granted to said State; and next, a deposit clerk ; next, a book-keeper; next, a coiner ; and next, A hill (S. No. 1096) for the relief of Samson Goliah. an engraver. Here are six or seven different offices created by the amendment, not recognized by the statuto at all. Gel\-tlemen may LEGISLATIVE, ETC., APPROPRIATION BILL. claim that in various appropriation bills appropriations ior the mints The Committee of the Whole resumed its session and proceeded at Philadelphia, Carson, and San Francisco have provided for these with the consideration of the legislative, executive, and judicial officers. If that be so, then it was only a repeal or amendment appropriation hill. to section 3496 of the Revised Statutes in so far as that legislation Mr. A'l'KINS. I do not believe. Mr. Chairman, that this amend applied to those particular mints. Hence I say that this amendment ment i~ subject to the point of order raised by the gentleman from is clearly liable to a point of order; it is new legislation and increases Indiana, [Mr. HANNA.] As to the propriety of the amendment, as to the eXJlenditures. whether it is policy on the part of this committee to adopt the amend Mr. DURHAM. I propose to confine myself strictly to the point of ment of the gentleman from Louisiana, that is a question which I do order. The proposed amendment is in one regard and one regard not propose to discuss now, but I do not believe that the point of only subject to a point of order. If the gentleman from Louisiana order can lie against the amendment. [Mr. GIBSON] will strike oo t of his ·amendment the officer there termed Mr. GIBSON. The point of order of the gentleman from Michigan an engraver, then it will be in strict accordance with law. But his [Mr. CONGER] has been withdrawn, as I understand it. amendment with the engraver in it is subject to a point of order, Mr. HANNA. I have not withdrawn my point of order. because it comes directly in the teeth of the section of the Revised The CHAIRMAN. The Chair understood the gentleman from Michi Statutes quoted by my friend from Colorado, [Mr. PATTERSON.] gan [Mr. CONGER] to withdraw his point of order. Allow me to say to the gentleman from Colorado [Mr. PATTERSON] Mr. CONGER. No; I said that if it appeared that the law author that it cannot be made a point of order against an amendment that ized this to be maintained as a mint and that these were the officerM it provides for clerks to carry on the operations of this mint, and that properly provided for, the point of order would not lie against the in that way officers are created who are not recognized by law. If amendment. that were so, then every clause of this bill providing for the several Mr. ATKINS. Section 3495 of the Revised Statutes established a Departments would be subject to a point of order. Take the Treas mint at New Orleans and that law has not been repealed. The last ury Department: for instance, the L'low does not say that there shall be legislation upon the subject waa in the last appropriation bill. It so many clerks, so many laborers, messengers, assietan t messengers, and treated the mint at New Orleans as a mere assay office, but I do not pa,ges in the Treaoury Department; not at all. But -those officers pretend to say t.bat that wa.s or could be construed to be a repeal of become necessary for the purpose of running the Department by the law establishing the mint. virtue of the statutes creating the Department. But when you pro Mr. SAYLER. I would like to ask the gentleman from Tennessee vide for an officer such as an engraver, in opposition to the statute a question in order to get at the facts in the case. The gentleman itself, then the amendment is subject to the point of order as stated understands -that the operations of the mint in New Orleans have bymy friend from Colorado, [:Mr. PATTERSON.) I simply mako the been suspended for a number of years and suspended by law. suggestion that with that exception the amendment is in order. Mr. ATKINS. By what law T _Mr. ATKINS. Will my colleague on the Committee on Appropria Mr. SAYLER. It bas been used only as an assay office, and the mere tions [Mr. DURHAM) allow me to have read in his remarks a para fact that there is now pending a bill from the Senate for the purpose graph from the appropriation a.ct of 1874 T of re-&~tablishing the mint at New Orleans is an evidence that addi Mr. DURHAM. While I think this amendment is subject to tbl tional legislation is required in order to constitute it a mint. point of order which I have suggested in the respect I have mentioned, .Mr. ATKINS. I yielded to the gentleman to a.sk a question and he I desire to say that when the amendment comes up for consideration is making a speech. I asked him what law there was repealin~ the and action I shall exercise my best judgment as to wnether I will section of the Revised Statutes establishing this mint. There IS no vote for it or not. such law. The gentleman cannot point to a law that repeals that Mr. HANNA. Does the gentleman regard this amendment as in the act. line of economy and retrenchment f - ... Mr. CRITTENDEN. I desire to a{lk the gentleman a question. Mr. DURHAM. I yield now to have read the clause of the appropria Mr. ATKINS. I only propose to occupy about five minutes, and I tion bill referred to by the gentleman from Tennessee, [.Mr. ATKINS.] cannot give all my time for questions; however, let the gentleman go The Clerk read as follows: on with his question. To reopen the branch mint at Now Orleans, to be conducted hereafter as a. mint, · Mr. CRITTENDEN. My question is, if the mere fact of the bring subject to the provisions and restrictions of the coinage act of 1873, the followinrr ing in here of a hill from the Senate a.s stated by the gentleman from appropriations are ma-de: For salaries of superintendent, $3,500; assayer, who shafi Louisiana [Mr. GIBSON] appropriating the sum of $75,000 to put this perform the duties of melter, $2,500; wages of three workmen, $3,000; for fuel, lights, acids, chemicals, and crucibles, $2,000; and for repairs and apparatus neces mint in running operation does not make the amendment offered by sary to put the mint in condition, $5,000; ill. all, $16,000. the gentleman from Louisiana amenable to the point of order raised by the gentleman from Indiana, [Mr. HANNA f) Mr. ATKINS. That legislation recognizes the mint at New Orleans .Mr. ATKINS. The gentleman means to say this: that becanse some as a mint as late as 1874, which was after the demonetization act of times Congress re-enacts a law that is evidence that the law has been 1873. repealed. That thing is done in many instances. Mr. SAYLER. Allow me to suggest to the gentleman that the pro Mr. CRITTENDEN. This is no re-enactment of tb~ law. vision of the appropriation bill which has just been :tead was for the Mr. FRANKLIN. Can the gentleman from Tennessee tell me the use of the building at New Orleans for an assay office only. reason why Congress should re-enact a law which is still in existence f .Mr. ATKINS. It specially provides for" the branch mint at New .Mr. ATKINS. I am not responsibfe for any folly Congress may Orleans." . adopt. If Con~ress re-ena-cts laws which are already in existence I Mr. SAYLER. It only provides for its operation as an assay office. am not responsible for it. Mr. REAGAN. On the point of order I desire to say a word. Sec .Mr. FRANKLIN. Then the gentleman wishes to say that this was tion 3495 of the Revised Statutes has been referred to. It provides a piece of folly on the part of the Senate f that" the different mints and assay offices -shall be known as," &c. . Mr. ATKINS. The amendment is germane and is an appropriation Then it mentions "third, the mint of the United States at New Or within existing law; it only increases the expenditure and therefore leans.'' There bas just been read from the Clerk's desk a provision I think it is not liable to a point of order. The policy of adopting the of legislation as late a-s 1874, making an appropriation for the purpose px:oposition is another question _upon which I may possibly agree of carrying on the mint at New Orleans as an assay office. It is now with the gentlemen who oppose It. - objected t.hat a proposition tQ carry on that mint a.s a mint will be in Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I think I can show by the statutes the nature of new legislation. The gentleman from Colorado [Mr. of the United States that this amendment does propose new legisla PATTERSON] supports his objection by the statement that this amend tion. I think I can show by the statutes, that the officers of the mints ment proposes an appropriation for officers not appropriated for in of the United States are expressly provided for, and that many of the the legislation of last year or the year before. offices created by the amendment are not provided for in the statutes. Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. Allow me to correct the gentleman. Let us admit, for the sake of argument, that there is a mint at New The point of order I made is that this amendment creates officers not Orleans and then let us see what officers the statutes of the United recognized by any statute or by any previous legislation for mints. • States say shall be employed at such a mint. Section 3496 of the Mr. REAGAN. This amendment neither creates nor recognizes offi Revised Statutes, provides that: cers unknown to the law in carrying on mints. It provides for offi The officers of each mint- cers known to the law, officers habitually employed. in the carrying on of mints, and the point of order no more lies against this amend That is specific language- ment in that respect than it would lie agains~ any appropriation bill Rhall be a. superin-tendent, an assayer, a melter and refiner, and a coiner· and for acted upon by this committee which increases or reduces the number th.e mint at F:hiladelphia, an engraver; all to be appointed by the Preside~t, by'and of officers in any bureau or Department. Wlth the advtce and consent of the Senate. Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. :May I ask the gentleman a ques Sir, we all know the old maxim of law, CXp1'e$Bio un-iutt est e~lu&o tion! alteriua. Mr. REAGAN. Certainly. 2970 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. APRIL 30, Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. ·when the statute expressly pro the New Orleans mint would almost be enough to make the purchase vides that the officers of a certain institution shall be those named in in Philadelphia my proposition suggests. The expense for the en that statute, then if any otherofficers than those named in that stat largement of the Philadelphia mint won1d be almost nothing as corn ute are subsequently provided for, is not that new legislation 7 Now, pared with the expense of establishing a new mint. Manifestly it then, as I said before, if you willlook-- would be for the interest of the Government to make this extension. Mr. REAGAN. I yielded to the gentleman for a question; but I There is no better time for the favorable purchase of property than cannot yield to him to make a speech. the present. Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. Certainly not. But I wish to call I hope Y.et to have an opport.unity to appear before the Committee . attention to section 34~6 of the Revised Statutes. It will be there on Coinage, Weights, and .Measures-not especially in the interest of found that such officers as engraver, chief clerk, weigh clerk, deposit Philadelphia or in the interest of the locality which I in part repre clerk, and book-keeper are not mentioned in the Revised Statutes at sent here, but in the interest of our country aud of economical expend all. iture of money. The first mint established in the United States was Mr. REAGAN. The point of the gentleman is that we cannot cre at Philadelphia, and the coinage there has become immense. For a ate officers for carrying on the Mint, that we cannot provide such comparatively trifling expense we can; so extend the building as instrumentalities as are needed for that purpose. Such an objection really not to require a new mint anywhere in the United States. as that would apply with equal force and validity to every bill that The railroad communications with Philadelphia are such that comes before the House from the Committee on Appropriations, pro bullion can be brought jost as conveniently to Philadelphia as to posing to increase the number of clerks or other officers in any other New Orleans or to almost any other part of the country. Yet wefiucl department of the·service. in this committee, which I believe thinks that it desires to legislate in That is the only point I desire to make. We habitually increase the interest of economy, au evident disposition to establish new mints. or reduce the number of clerks or other officers in the different I hope that the committee, if it wishes to save money, will consi Mr. STEPHE~S, of Georgia. Certainly. are yet before the committee. I suppose they will mal{e their report Mr. FOSTER. Is an increase of coinage facilities absolutely nec in the course of ten days. essary at this time f All these propositions will have to be duly considered ; but we Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia. It is, if you extend the coinage to think the mint power will have to be largely increased, especially if tho amount auth<>rized by the silver bill which became the law at Congress should pass the silver-bullion-certificate bill, which I trust this session. will be passed. That bill has been set down for consideration on the Mr. FOSTER. Are not the present facilities sufficient to comply 9th of next month-next Thursday week. . with the law! That is all I have to say. We intend to give consideration to all Mr. STEPHENS, of Geor~ia. Dr. Linderman and the Secretary of these matters; but the committee are unanimously in favor of the the Treasury think not. The mint capacity for this purpose they proposition offered by the gentleman from Louisiana to start the New both say at this time is only $3,500,000 per month. I am for doubling Orleans mint immediately. this. Mr. COLE. I renew the amendment. I dislike exceedingly, Mr. The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman from Georgia has Chairman, to antagonize any of these interests which appear upon expired. this floor, because I recognize in them substantial and worthy com Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia.. I would like to say a word further. petitors. All of them are cities with which most of us are very fa Mr. GIBSON. I had a. conversation with Dr. Linderman, ~nd the miliar, and each one of them would like very much to have a mint. present facilities are considered far short of what aro necessary. Bot in looking at the estimates of the committee this morning I :Mr. O'NEILL. I did not understand that the Director of the Mint observe, if we should go back to the operations of the New Orleans desired an extension of mint facilities anywhere, and therefore the mint, which extended through a period of twenty-three years, coin enlargement at Philadelphia even, in his estimation, is not necessary. ing in that time seventy millions of gold and silver, the expenses Mr. .6UCKNER. This discussion is going on entirely out of order. themselves, a{}cording to the estimates of this committee and rated Mr. SAYLER. I move to strike out the last word. in the same proportion, would cost the Government 4 per cent. on I have no disposition, Mr. Chairman, to antagonize the proposition each dollar coined. This is a very extravagant amount, and certainly of the gentleman from Louisiana [Mr. GIBSON] in regard to the mint it would seem that the expenses of coining in the city of New Orleans at New Orleans. I think, however, while that office is technically must be at least three or four times as much as they would be in denominated in the law a-s a mint, its principal use in the future will ma.ny other cities. be that of an assay office, and for that purpose, an enlarged assay Now, I would like very much to call the attention of this Congress office, it will be specially valuable when the time comes, as I think to the fact that in Saint Louis, the city which I have the honor in it will come before long, when our supply of bullion will have to be part to represent, you have a magnificent building now which will drawn from Mexico. soon be vacated, and could be vacated at once; a building which cost In response to the proposition of tl1e gentleman from Pennsylva some 2,000,000, which will have to be put up and sold, and would nia., [Mr. O'NEILL,] I wish to say this: it is not the mere consid not to-day, I believe, bring 50,000. It is a fire-proof building, one eration of the temporary cost of the constrncfion of a. mint which hundred and twenty-five by eighty feet, five stories high, built of should enter into this question; it is the question of the facility for stone, large enough to make one of the finest mints in the United the supply of bullion and the facility for the distribution of coin. I States. undertake to say Philadelphia is not so situated with reference to the Mr. FRANKLIN. How much is that building worth, did the gen rest of the country that it possesses these facilities to any extent, and tleman state T certainly to no extent greater than the work it is now doing. The Mr. COLE. I suppose it would not bring, as it is not adapted to city of New Orleans, in my judgment, is too far south to supply that business purposes, more than $40,000 or $50,000 if put up at sale. It grand empire which lies on the other side of the Allegheny 1\lount cost about $2,000,000, as nearly as I can recollect. . ains and which is commonly known as the Mississippi Valley, em Mr. FRANKLIN. Then would it not be economy on the part of the bracing a large number of the richest States of the Union and in Government to sell that building and cover the money into the Treas seven or eight of which States about one-half or more of the ·manu ury and place the new mint that is to be put in the West at some city facturing industries of this country are conducted, and in which in which offers to furnish a mint building free of charge Y the very near future there is an absolute demand for a first-class Mr. COLE. That might ue so if that city possessed the cheapest mint for coinage both of gold and silver. coal, the cheapest labor, cheapest food, the largest means of distril.m I say I do not antagonize the operations of the mint at New Or tion at the lowest cost; if it had all the skilled artisans and ma. leans because I believe them to be essential for carryin~ out and con chine-shops in it that are necessary; if it was the healthiest ~ity tributing to tlie necessities of this people. But the mmt itself that in the world, which Saint Louis is proved to be by a comparison of shall supply t.ha.t country with the necessary coinage must be farther vital statistics as compared with other cities. If it had all those ad north and in a more central portion of the great industrial interests vantages and more which I now have not time to enumerate, then it of the Mississippi Valley. might be considered fairly as a competitor to be duly considered. Mr. GIBSON. Let me ask the gentleman a question. Mr. FRANKLIN. I think the Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Mr. SAYLER. Certainly. Measure~ will come to the conclusion that there is a point we.~t of Mr. GlBSON. Does the gentleman know that t.he bullion coined Saint Louis where the mint can be carried on much better. at the mint of New Orleans from its establishment to its close came Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. And that point is Denver. [Laugh- from Mexico, and that the supplies for that mint will be drawn ter.] . chiefly from Mexico, and that therefore it does not interfere f Mr. FRANKLIN. That point is Kansas City. Mr. SAYLER. I have so suggested, Mr. Chairman, that the mint Mr. COLE. I wish to say that Saint Louis, according to the last at New Orleans would be valuable in that respect, yet I regard it census, is the fourth city in population in the United States, (and at ·chiefly as an assay office, but tl.e coina • 2972 CONGRESSIONA.L RECORD-HOUSE. APRIL 30, Let me recall your attention to another fact. There is a don bt about Indianapolis there are seventy-eight tl.Cres of grouncl, of which the the title to the property on which this mint at New Orleans stands. title is perfect, with buildings equal to those at Philadelphia or at It is a question whether the title has not lapsed, because it was ceded any other point, which the United States Government can have, and to the Government by the city of New Orleans on condition that a where we can, at an expense of $50,000, equal to-day the coinage of mint should be continually operated there! and the mint has not been the mint at Philadelphia. I do not say this for the purpose of preju operated as a mint since1861. This is only incidental. dicing any other point. I state it simply as a fact and to show the Mr. GIBSON. I want to say to the gentleman that the eit.y of injustice of attempting in an appropriation bill to fix and settle for New Orleans has formally relinquished all right and interest in this ever any one point in advance of any law. property. A. few days ago the Senate passed a bill upon this subject, and by [Here the h~mmer fell.] my vote and those of others of ns here that bill was referred to the Mr. COLE. I withdraw my formal amendment. Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Measures. Why t Because we Mr. HOOKER. I renew the amendment. I desire to say a word, wanted to have the benefit of the judgment of that committee; we Mr. Chairman, in reference to the proposition which is offered to wanted that committee to hear the representatives of all these rival amend the bill so as to continue the mint at New Orleans and not to ,oints, and, when they had done that, to impartially consider the re-establish it, as has been well said by the distinguished gentleman subject and to bring before us their fair, full, and impartial report, from Georgia, because it has never been discontinued, and in refer so that we could have the benefit of it. But intrtead of that, upon ence to the remarks which fell from the gentleman last upon the floor, the ipse dixit of some of my friends from the Sonth, we are asked to just before he took his seat. day, in advance of legislation, in advance of any report from that I understand that it is not true that there has been any attempt to committee, in advance of any recommendation on their part, to take question the fact that this property was relinquished by the city ef at once 118,000 out of the Treasury and pot it down in New Orleans. New Orleans to the Government on the ground that it has not been I Mk is that fair and right toward Saint Louis, Cincinnati, Spring continually occupied as a mint. On the contrary, it was never used field, Chicago, and Indianapolis f It seems to me it is not. for any other purposes than those for which it was ceded, and it was Mr. V Al'fCE. Will the gentleman answer a question f reopened as a mint in the year 1874. Mr. HANNA.. I will. In answer to the argument of my distinguished friend from Ohio, Mr. VANCE. Does not the gentleman think that the demands of (Mr. SAYLER,] in reference to the fact that this mint for the coina~e the country require further mint capacity than will be supplied at of silver at New Orleans is not properly located, because it is not m New Orleans f the interior of the country, but in a dty which is the great entrepot Mr. HANNA. I believe it do~s. As members very well know I have for that interior, I beg to say that the argument of the gentleman at all times since _I have occupied a seat upon this floor announced from Pennsylvania [Mr. O'NEILL] might as well be that the mint at myself as an unlimited free-silver-coinage man. We must come to Philadelphia ought to be removed to Pittsburgh as that the mint at that, and the sooner the country understands it the better. Hence, I New Orleans ought to be removed to the interior of the Mississippi say, wait patiently until we get a report from my friend from Georgia Valley. [Mr. STEPHE~s] who heads the Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Mr. O'NEILL. I did not say that I was not going to vote for this Measures, and let us avail ourselves of the benefit of the experience proposition. of that committe~. I trust my friend from Louisiana [Mr. GmsoN] Mr. HOOKER. Nor did I say so; but I want to say that the mint will not attempt, I will not F-ay designedly, to do that which is to at Philadelphia, on the seaboard, coins the bullion of the country inure to the advantage of New Orleans only, without consideringthe and distributes it to the interior, and the argument might as well be claims of other points. made that it ought to be removed to Pittsburgh as that the mint at [Here t.he hammer fell.] New Orleans should be removed. The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. SAYLER. I should like to ask the gentleman a question. Does Mr. ATKINS. I wish to inq nire if we cannot by some sort of agree he not know that Philadelphia is the center of the population of Penn ment obtain in Committee of the Whole a limitation to the debate on sylvania at th~ present time, and if he does not know that the popu this amendment' lation of the States up tho Mississippi River is about three or four to Mr. REAGAN. I wish the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. ATKINs] one as to that of the States below; that almost the entire manu would allow- me at this point to occupy the floor for a few minutes. faetnring and commercial interests of that great valley are within M:r. ATKINS. I do not propose to cut off debate. I simply wish to the limits of seven or eight States north f ask the committee to give consent that debate be limited, without Mr. HOOKER. In answer to the inquiry of the gentleman I beg going into the Hon8e to obtain an order for that purpose. to say that the city of New Orleans, like Philadelphia and New York Mr. BUTLER. I would like to ask the gentleman from Tennessee; and the other cities on the seaboard, is the great point from which [Mr. ATKINS,] before he asks for any limitation of debate, to' allow the commerce must go out upon the seas and come back, and there me about two minutes to state what I understand to be the reason fore it is the proper position for a mint. You do not ship a particle why any mint was ever established at New Orleans. I have listened of grain or coal or anything that you raise out of the earth or any in vain for that statement to be made by some other gentleman. thing that yon produce, whether by manufacturing or mining, that Mr. ATKINS. I do not propose to cut off debate entirely; I merely does not pass through the port of New Orleans by natural law, and wish to ascertain whether the committee will consent to some limit that therefore New Orleans is the great ent1·epot of the commerce of ation. the ~lississippi Valley and the point at which a mint should be located. Mr. GARFIELD. Say twenty minutes on the pending paragraph This great commercial town is adjacent t.o the month of that great and on the amendments thereto. river and its hundreds of tributaries which is the source of the com Mr. A. TKINS. I am willing to agree to that, if by common consent merce of all that region of country, and yon might as well argue that we can fix the limit of debate to twenty minutes. the mint should be removed from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh as that Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. Say thirty minutes instead of it should be removed from New Orleans to anywhere else. twenty. Mr. FRANKLIN. We do not propose to send our gold and bullion The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to the proposit.ion of the gen abroad to be coined. tleman from Tennessee [Mr. ATKINS] that debate npon the pending M:r. HOOKER. · But you need it to pay for the produce that you paragraph and amendments thereto be limited to twenty minutes. purchase abroad. M:r. CRITTENDEN. I object to anything of the kind. Mr. HANNA. It occurs to me, and I think it will occur to every Mr. A. TKINS. Then I move that the committee rise for the pur impartial mind on this floor, that the discussion has already developed pose of obtaining from the Honse an order limiting debate. I will the fact that we ought not in an appropriation bill to attempt to legis state that I desire to accommodate the wishes of the majority of the late as we are now asked to legislate. I want to be fair with all these House. contending points and I intend to be so, and my hope bas been that M:r. V A.NCE. I think thirty minutes will be agreed to. this measure would not be sprung upon the House until it would have :Mr. ATKINS. I move that the committee rise. the benefit of a report from the Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Mr. FRANKLIN. I hope the motion will be voted down. Measures. . The motion of :Mr. ATKINS was agreed to; upon a division, ayes 98, I have great confid~nce in that committee and in the chairman of noes not counted. the committee that they will do what is fair and right. And I hope The committee accordingly rose; and Mr. SPRINGER having taken that when their report comes into this House it will be a report not the chair as Speaker pro wmporc, Mr. EDEN reported that, pursuant only in favor of reopening to some extent the mint at New Orleans, to the order of the Hoose, the Committee of the Whole on the state bot also in favor of establishing additional branch mints. I believe of the Union had had under consideration the bill (H. R. No. 4104) that the public interest· requires that that should be done. Let that making appropriations for the legislative, executive, and judicial committee fairly and impartially and justly consider the claims and expenses of the Government for thetiscal year ending June 30, 1879, advantages of all these rival points, inclndi~~ the one I immediately and for other purposes, and had come to no resolution thereon. represent, and when they have done that I will be content with their Mr. ATKINS. I move that when the House shall again resolve judgment. · itself into Committee of the Whole on the legislative, executive, and The Committee on Appropriations come in here with their bill ask judicial appropriation bill all debate upon the pending paragraph and jug us to appropriate for the mint at New Orleans $10,262. An amend amendments thereto shall be limited to twenty minutes. ment is thrust in our faces asking us to appropriate $128,900 for that :Mr. FRANKLIN. I move to amend so as to make it-- purpose, an excess of $118,000. Now I say in the face of that, with Mr. A. TKINS. Well, I wish to accommodate the Honse, and will say out attempting to disparage any other riv:1l point, th:1t at tho citi' of thirty minutes. 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSEo 2973 The motion of :Mr. ATKINS limiting debate was a.gree.d to. No move should be made in this direction until the Committee on Mr. GARFIELD moved to reconsider the order just made limiting Coinage, Weights, and Measures have considered this whole matter debate; and aL.~o moved that the motion to reconsider be laid on the ·and have decided where these additional mints, if any,. shall be estab table. · lished; for I believe it is ~enerally conceded that the interests of the The latter motion was agreed to. country demand additional mints. · 1\fr . .ATKINS. I now move that the rules be suspended and the Mr. GIBSON. Does not the gentleman know that the Committee House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on the state of the on Coinage, Weights, and Measures have had this matter under con Union for the purpose of proceeding with the consideration of the sideration and have unanimously authorized me to report this bill J legislative, executive, and judicial appropriation bill. Mr. FRANKLIN. Certainly, I am aware of that. I think that th~ The motion was agreed to. interests of the country demand that a~ditional mints be estab The House accordingly resolved itself into the Committee of the lished; and it is highly probable that the city of New Orleans is a Whole,( Mr. EDEN in the chair.) . proper point for one. But I hold that for the coining of the silver and The CHAIRMAN. By order of the House all debate upon the pend gold product of our country it is an absolute necessity that a mint be ing paragraph and amendments thereto has been limited to thirty established farther west than any that has been spoken of yet to-day, minutes. and the whole question should be disposed of at once. · 1\Ir. RE.AG.AN. I only wish to say a word, because it seems to· me Now, the gentleman from Indiana, [.Mr. HANNA,] in speaking of the that the course which the debate has taken may divert attention from claims of different localities for new mints, says that Indianapolis the true issue involved in the amendment. The proposition of the presents advantages superior to any competing point. He tells us amendment is simply to make the necessary appropriations to con that the Government has there seventy acres of land with buildings tinue an existing mint. This seems to be antagonized first by the situate thereon suitable for conducting the business of a mint. Let gentleman from Philadelphia, [Mr. O'NEILL,] who thinks his city can me tell the gentleman that if the Government has seventy acres of do the co~nage for the country. land there and a building suitable for this purpose, and has no other 1\Ir. O'NEILL. I have not antagonized the proposition for the New use for it than to establish a mint, it would be economy on the part Orleans mint at all. of the Government to sell that land with the buildings, cover the Mr. RE.AG.AN. Then it is antagonized by several other gentle money into the Treasury, and establish a mint at some point like men: by the gentleman from Indiana [.Mr. HANNA,] who thinks that Kansas City, where we will give the Government gronnd free of charge the coinage ought to be done in Indianapolis; by a gentleman from and erect thereon a building according to the plans and specifications Ohio, who thinks it had better be done in Cincinnati; by another furnished by the Director of the Mint. gentleman from Missouri, who thinks the proper place for carrying In this connection I will state that at a meeting of the Board of on our mint business is in that State; by my friend from Colorado, Trade of Kansas City, held on the 19th day of February, 1876, the who thinks that it ought to be done at Denver. Each of these gen following resolutions were passed. They were presented by me to tlemen is struggling for the establishment of a new mint in opposition this Hoose on the 28th of February, 1876, and are of record on page to continuing in operation an existing mint. . • 1350: volume 14, CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Forty-fonrth Congress, Now, it seems to me this is not a question that should arise now; t1rst eession: that we ought simply to consider at this time whether the necessi At a meeting of the Board of Trode of the City of Kansa.'l, Missouri, held on the ties of its country, its commerce and its coinage, justify and require a 19th day of February, 1876, the following resolutivnR were unanimously a~opted, after a thorough canvass and discussion of the subject to which the.v relate: continuance of the operations of the mint at New Orleans with in Resolved, That the president and secretary of t.his Board of Trade be, and are creased facilities for larger coinage. We are assured by the distin l1ereby, instructed to offer to the Secretary of the Treasury, and through him to the guished gentleman from Georgia, [Mr. STEPHENS,] the chairman of Government, all tho grounds U.esired, and a building prepared and fitted up for the purposes of the proposed mint to be estalllisbed in the Mississippi Valley, free of the Committee on Coinage, Weights, and Measures, that iu his judg cost; or to offer, if more desirable, the necesssary grounds and a building for said ment, as also in the judgment of Dr. Linderman, the Director of the mint, to be erected new, npon y!ans prescribed•.by the Director of tho Mint, free of Mint, increa~ed coinage facilit.ies are required. If this be so, why cost, on condition that said nnnt be located in Kansas City, Missouri. should we on an appropriation bill, which provides simply for contin Resolved, That this offer will be made f!OOd at any time within not less than ninety days from the notice given of the definite location of the mint in this city, if sore uing in operation an existing mint, e.mbarrass the action of the Honse quired. by undert.aking to determine whether new mints shall be established! Now, therefore, we the undersigned president and secretary of the Board of Trade When the bill on that subject is reported by the Committee on Coin of Kansas City, Missouri, do hereby certify that the above IS a correct copv of the age, Weights, and Measures it will be t.ime enough to consider the Iesolutions adopted by said Board of Trade on tho 19th day of February, i876. In testimony whereof we have hereunto set our hands and affixed the seal of question of an additional mint or mints, disembarrassed from aU said association. questions such as the· one now before UB. Done at Kansaa City, Missouri, this 2-~d day of Fobruarv, 1876. I have a word to say in relation to the necessity of the mint at [sEAL.] F. B. NOFSINGER, President. New Orleans. It is at the mouth of our greatest river. It is at the W. H. MILLER, Secretary. city second or third in the amount of it.s exports among the cities of This offer has been renewed. I~ exists to day, and will be cheer the Union. It is at a city of vast commerce both with the interior folly performed whenever the conditions are complied with. and with foreign ports. It is where coin is required. It is where the This is an effectual answer to that portion of the argument of gen means of exchange, of credit, of commercial operations are required tlemen when they state that t.he Government owns grounds and build to accommodate the vast Valley of the Mississippi and its great trib ings in their cities that can be used for mint purposes. It will take utaries, the Red River, the .Arkam'las, the Tennessee, the Cumberland, about as much money to reconstruct these oM buildings in order to the Ohio, the Missouri, and all that vast region of country. Besides, make them suitable for this purpose as to build new ones. the report of the Secretary of the Treasury shows that very consid Mr. Chairman, it is impossible for me in the limited time allowed me erable amounts of bullion come n·om Mexico into that city, entering in this debate to discuss this question as it deserves, and I shall not into the commerce, the assay, and the coinage of t.he country. attempt it. .At the proper time, when tho proper occasion present~ Now, with a million of dollars or more of bullion coming in annu itself, when tho question of the establishment of a branch mint in ally from Mexico, with a prospect of a very large increase, with the the West is bofore the House, I will address myself to the subject in large foreign and domestic ttade at that city, why should we strike all its bearings and shall attempt to show that Kansas City has down the coinage facilities of a region of country lying a thousand advantages for its location not possessed by any of the competing miles south of any other place named for a mint i Why should we points. This city has better facilities for reaching the gold and sil strike down vast commercial interests there, by refusing to appropri ver fields than any other; in fact, none of the points east of the Mis ate for an existing mint simply on the ground that it may interfere souri asking for the mint can reach the ores of Colorado, New Mexico, with the establishment of mints in other parts of the conn try where and Arizona except by using the railways built west from Kansas there are already minting facilities which largely accommodate the City; and as a point for distributing coin to the various points in the necessities of those various sections Y Mississippi Valley it possesses superior advantages. It seems to me that if we intend to be governed not by local inter The location of the mines naturally determines this question in her ests bnt by the great commercial interests of the country, we cannot favor. .A branch miut call be operated at this point cheaper than at do more wisely than make this appropriation for the mint at New any other. .As a point for cheap food supply and cheap fuel no city Orleans, which has a large import of bullion and a large import and in the West possesses equal advantages, and it is nearer than any export of products and other manufactured art,icles. other to the ores and to the zinc and sulphur deposits of the United I think it worthy of consideration that that great commercial cen States. ter lies far remote from every other mint and from every other point I think the Government should immediately establish new mints, where it is proposed to establish one. I presume there can be no for our mint capacity at presl"nt is evidently not sufficient. Perhaps question that if there were not a mint there now the commercial.in the one at New Orleans should be put in successful operation ~md an terest~ of the country would demand the establishment of one there addititional one, or perhaps two, establishAd. if the qneMtion were determined by the consideration of the commer We well remember that when the silver bill was 11nder discussion cial interests of the country alone. the Senate in one of the prominent arguments made against the on (Hero the hammer foll.l restricted coinage of silver was that we had not the mint capacity to Mr. FRANKLIN. Mr. Chairman, I think that the question of the coin more than from two to four millions per month. establh.;hment of a new mint is directly involved in the consideration We should by the establishment of additional mints eliminate this of this question. I am not opposed to the re-establishment of the objection to unrestricted coinage, and afford facilities for coining all mint at Now Orleans; but if we vote this appropriation it is equiva,. the gold and si1ve.r our mines produce. Why not utilize our si1ver lent to the establishment of a new mint, from the fact that the one product in the payment of our natim;1al debt 'f at New Orleans, aM I understand, has not been in operation foFyears. I hold there is as much logic, just as much reason, just as much 2974 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. APRIL 30, _ statesmanship in saying that we will restrict the field of agriculture gard to Mexico, however many other mints we may see fit to estab within certain limits as to say that we will not afford fa-cilities for lish, we ought certainly to rebuild this mint in New Orleans. It was · utilizing the entire silver product of the country. proper enough to strike down the mint-s at Charlotte and Dahlonega [Here the hammer fell.) because the gold mines in that region had been worked out. But the The CHAIRMAN. Debate is exhausted on the pending amendment. mint at New Orleans is one of t.he great necessities of this country, Mr. REAGAN. I withdraw the formal amendment. m::.de more so by recent developments and recent legislation. And -Mr. BUTLER. I renew it. I only desire, :fl.fr. Chairman, to say a whatever may be done as to other places, however it may affect my single word and I do not know I should have said anything if I State- and I know Ohio is asking for a mint-I would be ashamed to understood what the chairman of the Committee on Coinage, Weights, strike down this mint which for good reasons ought to be contiuued and Measures had said. I did not understand him, but I believe he in the hope that thereby I might save something for Ohio. I believe has anticipated me in that. I desire simply to say the matter of the this amendment ought to prevail. establishment of a mint at New OrJeans was argued before this House :Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I have a firm conviction that if a goodly number of years ago and was established there upon one this amendment is adopted it will he the last legisla.tion having in proposition only, the coinage of tbe silver and gold, largely silver, view the establishment of additional mint facilities for ten year::i to which comes from Mexico making New Orleans its port of entry in the come. And believing aa I do that the necessities of the country de United States. The reason· which put the mint there exists now mand that the new mint should he established in another section than except so far aa our commerce has somewhat fallen off and the min the extreme southern portion of the country, I am opposed to the ing of silver has not so largely increased in Mexico a-s it was supposed amendment. The excuse for the establishment of the mint at New it would do. But there is no place now, and there never has been, Orleans was its proximity to the silver of Mexico and of South Amer where so much silver bullion strikes this country from abroad as at ica. At that time there were no silver products west of the :Missis New Orleans from Mexico. We have a mint there now, with every sippi River, and the Government was only justified in establishing thing, all the machinery of a mint except mint power-:-the power of this mint because it was then at the door of its nearest bullion sup minting-the building, superintendent, a-ssaying-all it wants is press ply. But why did this mint fall into disuse T Because since its es ing and milling machi.uery. tablishment goltl and silver are both produced w i ~ bin the limits of our Without antagonizing any other place, I am willing to establish own country, upon the Paci-fic coast and in the central regions of the mints in other places, hoping min tin~ will very soon stop; that is to Rocky .Mountains, in greater quanti ties than can now be coined under say, that people will be conteut with having silver and gold in bars, existing laws. ingots stamped a.nd laid away, if they are so foolish as to lay them We raise from the mines of this country annually seventy-five mill away, or sent as other merchandise is across the waters, for it never ion dollars' worth of silver. And yet if we should coin every dollar goes abroad, silver or gold, without being put into the melting-pot of silver money provided for by existing laws we would consume but on one side or the other, using, as we are now using instead of gold $48,000,000 of this product, leaving $~7 ,ouo, 000 of the prod net of our own and silver, gold and silver certificates of bullion value. I therefore mines wandering around in search of a mint or market, while we are think, as we shall never get farther this se~sion of Congress than engaged in putting in.pperation a mint at New Orleans to gather in renewing the mint at New Orleans, we had better take this oppor tho silver of ¥exico and South America. Sir, I assert that such a tunity to do so. I yield t-he remainder of my time to the gentleman policy is on-American. One object of the bill passed at the early part from Illinois. of this session was the furnishing of a market for the silver produced Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. Chairman, thanking the gentleman from by our own mines, and thereby give a fair profit to those who were Massachusetts [Mr. BUTLER] for his courtesy, I have only time to say engaged in this American industry. that I regret very much this question ba-s been sprung upon the com Might I say a word about the proper location of the new mint T mittee at this time. While other gentlemen have been talking of Most assuredly it reqnires to he somewhere in the region of the conn various locaJ,ities for a new mint, I desire to say that in my opinion try producing the bullion and in the vicinity of the Mississippi Val Rock Island, illinois, presents superior advantages for the location ley; it ought to he in the direct lineof the flow of silverproduced in of such mint, if one is to he established. There is on Rock Island a the Rocky Mountain region. It may be Saint Louis is the place, per most excellent building already constructed and well adapted to the haps Cincinnati or Indianapolis, but I believe when the true inter uses of a mint, and which is owned by the Government. It is on the ests of the country are consulted the capital of tbe State I represent Mississippi River, and on one of the great through lines of railroad on this floor will be selected as the point. It is situated at the very running from the Atlantic to the Pacific. The island lies in between base of the eastern slope of the Rocky Mountains, and is most con veu the cities of Davenport, Rock Island, Moline, cities containing a pop ient for receiving the bullion prouucts of Colorado, Wyoming, ulation of near fifty t.housand inhabitants, and is the property of the Utah, New Mexico: and Arizona. Every line of railroad that enters United States. It is in the midst of rich and inexhaustible coal-fields the Rocky Mountains lea-ding to the State and Territories 1 have and of one of the richest agricultural regions in the worlu. named originate, with one exception, at the city of Denver, and As an armory and arsenal are located on the island, if this mint is every ounce of bullion that will come to the Ea-st for coinage, except established on it, there will always be a sufficient force on the island that which passes over the Union Pacific road, must first pass through to give it protection. But, Mr. Chairman, I more particularly ro~ to Denver. say that the advant-ages which Rock Island pussesses for the location Colorado and the Territories tributary to it will supply every ounce of a mint, have been presented by the gentleman from Iowa [Mr. of bullion that can bo coined in whatever new mint i8 estal>lir:!hed. PRICE] and myself to the Committee of Coinage, Weights, and :Meas Already their products amount to $25,000,UOO per annum. All mate ures, as have also the advantages of other localities, and I think we rials for manufacturing this into coin aro indigenous to Colorauo. should await the action of that committee. And I trust the amend The greatest possible facilities exist for gathering the bullion toget-her ment proposed will not be adopted. at Denver and then for distributing the coin to the commercial cen Mr. GARFIELD. Mr. Chairman, during the several years while I ters of the continent. The Atlantic and Pacific coasts have their mints. was chairman of the Committee on Appropriations, when there was Why should t-he very heart of the continent, the center of the gold and not enough coinage being done to require the rehabilitation of any silver products of the country, be cast aside to erect one more mint mint, and even when we were providing for the sale of mints at upon the country's ra-gged edge T Why should the p;-oducts of Ameri Charlotte and Dahlonega and other points, we still kept the New can mines be left out in the cold that foreign bullion may find a Orleans mint alive by keeping up the form of appropriation giving a market f When the mines of Colorado and the Territories adjacent small sum of money, because if we had not done so unucr the terms to it are exhausted or are not capable of supplying the bullion needed of the grant it would revert to its former owners. We are bound then will Congress be justified in establishing a mint at New Orleans while we own it to keep it a mint. to receive the products of .Mexican and South American mines; until Now so far Congress has held it alive. I believe it ought to keep then it fills its measure of usefulness as an assay office for the section it alive for active and positive reasons. If there were nothing at New in which it is located. Experience should teach legislators as well as Orleans, if there were no plant, I should say if the Uniwd States were men of business that as it is more economical and profita.ble, for to establish a new mint it ought to establish it there; ancl as wo have reasons patent to aU, to manufacture the iron of Peunsylvauia in the plant for a still stro11ger reason we ought to maintain it there. Pennsylvania, so is it more economical and profitable to the Govern It was established, as the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. BuT ment and the people to manufacture their coin a,t the places where the · LER] said, because of its nearness to our great foreign supply of sil bullion is produced and from whence it can be speedily aud econom ver. I wa-s told this morning by a gentleman who happened to be ically diBtributcd throughout tho land. Denver is superior to all other here, connected with a banking house in New York, that in the last points for the purpose of coinage, and I will never consent to its ten days his house had received $100,000 of Mexican silver delivered exclusion from the privilege until the Ho.nse, afterfu1l discussion, shall to thai house alone. Since our recent le~islation the flow of silYer see fit to decide otherwise. It is not right to forestall de_liberate action is beginning from Mexico in its old way. Why, then, ship it to New upon a matter of so great importance by forcing through an amend York, when by this rehabilitation of tbemint at New Orleans we can ment to a mere money hill, even with the sanction ofthe Committee do the work there 7 on Appropriations, and on Coiuage, Weights, and Measures, where If the time ever comes, as come it doubtless will, wJ1en we shall debate upQn the proposition is limited to tive minutes to each mem have a southern line of Pacific Railroacl complet('d we shall have a ber who may uesire to be hearu. way opened to what I believe to be the richest silver country on this lHere the hammer fell.] globe. I mean Southern Arizona. Its natural tlow to the United ?!Ir. FRANKLIN. Does the gentleman from Colorado pretend to States will be along the line of that roau. That country will natu say that coal anrl food are as cheap in Denver as in Saint Louis' rally pour its treasures into New Orleans as tbe first great point of Mr. P.A.Tl;'ERSON, of Colorado. Yes; I say that coal and foou and deposit. And for that reason, in addition to t~e ~·easo11 named~ ~e- ~veryth~~g else are as cheap in Denver as in Saiut Louis. Why, we 1878. CONQ-RESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 2975 • have seventy-five thousand square miles of coallaudin Colorado and Tellers were ordered; and Mr. GIBS.ON1 and Mr. PATTERSON of Col- we supply the gentleman's market with every pound of beef that his orado were appointed. · constituents eat. The committee again divided; and the tellers reported that there Mr. FRANKLIN. That is simply absurd. I do not think the gen were-ayes 71, noes 96 . • tleman understands the markets of his own State. So the amendment ·was not agreed to. .Mr. PATTERSON, of Colorado. I think I do, better than the gen- The committee rose informally, and Mr. SPRINGER took the chair tleman does his. as Speaker pro tentpo·re. fHere the hammer fell.) Mr. BUTLER. I withdraw my amendment. MESSAGE FROM TllE PRESIDENT. Mr. DURHAM. I renew the amendment. I do not rise for the pur A message from the President was communicated to the Honse by pose of opposing the mint at New Orleans or to advocate a mint at 1\-f.r. PRUDEN, one of his secretaries, informing the House that he had Saint L shall have been first established by the governor of the Territory, in tives, and in doing so we retrench expenditures. Therefore, under ~;~pite of any law of CongreSs and without any restriction upon such Rule 120, the provision is entirely admissible and in order. redistricting as now exists. , · Mr. CONGER. Does the gentleman claim that there is now any I do not enumerate all the points particnl;Lrly in which this para law paying the president of the council and the speaker of the house graph is new legislation. There are many particulars in which it is $6 a day each f This bill provides that rate of pay, while the present new legislation, that have no reference to retrenchment whatever. law pays them only $4 a day. In those respects this paragraph is evidently subject to a point of Mr. ATKINS. The speaker of the house and the president of t.be order. council each receiv~nndertheexistinglaw, as I understand, $10 a day. If the Chair had not limited me to five minutes, I should have This bill proposes to reduce their per diem to $6. Again while rep given the points upon which this paragraph is subject to a point of resentatives and councilmen get 6 a day each under tlle present law, order, without reference to the question of retrenchment. this bill proposes to reduce their per diem to $4. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will hear the gentleman on that Mr. HANNA. I would like to inquire of the chairman of the Com· point. mittee on Appropriations whether he finds any statute providing fot· Mr. CORLETT. I would suggest to the gentleman from Michigan a chaplain. I see that this bill provhles for one at a per diem ef [Mr. CoNGER] that sections ltl47, 1849, and 1922 fix the number of $1.50, which I think would not pay his board. members of the territorial Legislature. Mr. ATKINS. We will talk about that directly. I do not care to Mr. CONGER. There are several sections of the Revised Statutes be diverted from the pending point of order. If the gentleman from to which I might call the attention of the Chair. Section 1922· pro Indiana [Mr. HANNA] does not want to have prayers for those people vides for the number of members of the Legislatures oft he Territories out there, I do not kno)V that I shall disagree with him. of New Mexico, Utah, Washington, Colorado, Dakot.a, Arizona, Idaho, Mr. HANNA. I do want to have prayers; but I want to pay what and Montana. TheLegislaturesof New Mexico and Utah are to con they are worth. sist of thirteen m .mbers of the council and twenty-six meqtbers of Mr. ATKINS. I submit that this provision of the bill is entirely the ho&.se of representatives. The W asbiugton territorial Legislature in order because Congress has supreme control over this question consists of nine members of the council and eighteen members of the and because this proposition contemplates a retrenchment of expend . house of representatives, which may be increased to thirty. Colorado itures. It seems to me that under Ru1e 120 there cannot be a doubt and Dakota have legislatures consisting of nine members of the coun that the provision is in order. - cil, which may be increased to thirteen, and thirteen members of the Mr. DURHAM. I suppose it will not be denied by any gentleman house of representatives, which may be increased to twenty-six. on this floor that the Territories are the creatures of the Congress of The Legislature of Arizona consists of nine members of t.he council the United States. We may go so far as to annul entirely their whole and eighteen members of the bouse of representatives. That is the territorial governments ; and in most instances Congress has reserved only one of the Territories that has the number of its members of the to itself expressly the power to supervise all their laws. In the same Legislature fixed unchangeably by the Revised Statu t.es. In Idaho manner Congress prescribes the number and compensation of their and Montana the council of each consists of seven members and the members of council and their representatives. house of representatives of thirteen members, with power to increase. Now, I will say to my friend from Michigan [Mr. CONGER] that Mr. DURHAM. The gentleman does Lot read that exactly right. having had this matter especially in charge as a memuer of the suo Let him read it again. committee I a. The CHAIRMAN. It is apparent on the fa-ce of the paragraph that one particular feature of it, because I believe that it create a cban~e the number of members in the Assembly of tho Territory is reduced in existing laws relating to the constitution of the territorial Legis • and that their salary is reduced. The Chair is unable to see in the latures which will hereafter produce unfortunate and, so far as the rrn.ragraph where it increases expenditures in any manner whatever. committee reporting this bill is concerned, unanticipated conse Therefore a-s the subject-matter is germane to the bill, and the change quences. Commencing on line 1008 I find this provi~ion in the bill, in the law retrenches expenditures, the Chair bo1Us that it is in order. evidently inserted t.o provide for the new o1·c.Ier of thmgs: Mr. JACOBS. I move to strike out from lino99t:lto 1027, as follows: And the governors of each of said Tenitories ~hereby authorized an.d ~irecte~, GOVE!tNlill~"T IN THE Tl>RlllTOllillS. prior to the noxt election for members of the Legislature thereof, to diVIde thOir That the councils of each of tho Territories of tho United States shall not exceed respective Territmics into as many council and representative districts as they nine members, and the houses of representatives of each shall I!Ot ~xcccd ~ighteon are herein entitled to, which districts shall be as nearly equal aa practicable, tak members and the members of each branch of the several terntorllll Legislatures ing into consideration population, except Indians not taxed. shall receive a. compensation of $4 per day each during the sessions provided for by la.w, and they sfuill rec~ive such mileage as the law provides: Provicfed, That Now what does this meant It means nothing unless it is that the the president of the council and the sp6!'ker of tho house of representatives sh~ll Territories hereafter shall be divided into nine council districts-one each receive $6 per day for the same hme. A.n 2978 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. APRIL 30, I that this glaring omission in this proposed new legislation should be lation by which our Legislative Assemblies shall be so reduced in pointed out now in order that it may be rectified. numbers as to make them mere mockeries so far as they ara intended But there ru-e features about this new legislation proposed for the to be in ::my sense representative of the people. Territories much more obnoxious than the one I have just adverted By reference to the map and to the facts concerning the Territories, to. I did not anticipate that it would be necessary to again discuss it will be seen that they embrace vast areas of country generally suf in this House at this session the question which is involved in the ficient to include several of tho older States of the Union. The :>e va t proposition now before us. As I have already said in a.nother connec- areas of land are settling up with populations scattered over all parts tion, the Committee on the Judiciary of this House have had the of the Territories, the settlements being numerous and still at such whole matter before them at the present session upon a bill intro- distances from each other thn.t there cannot be proper representu.tion duced into this House early in the session by the gentleman from of the people at all if the membemhip is to be reduced as proposed. Arizona, [Mr. STEVENS,] which bill was intended to give to Arizona It is a fact well known to me that under the present condition of things the right to increase its repreRentation in its Legislature so as to be the council and representative districts in the Territories are so large, on an equality with the other Territories. embracin rr settlements so remote from each other, that the people find The Judiciary Committee thus having this subject committed to it very difllcnlt and often impossible to have that conference and uni it on the 21st of February last reported to this House a bill intended son of action which is so n~cessary to the selection of proper persons to remove this inequality. When, however, that bill was reported to as representatives who will clearly reflect n.nd express the wishes of the Honse, I observed that it had the effect of temporarily reducing those whose interests are to be acted upon. the number of members in all the territorial Legislatures. I at once As a consequence of this we often witness the spectacle of a horde' called the attention of the House and the gentleman reporting the of candidates being voted for for these places, and the result controlled bill [Mr. IlARTRIDGE] to what the effect of that bill would be, and far more by accident than by the deliberate choice of the voter. All the intention to effect any such action was at once disclaimed and must concede that such a condition of things ought not to be. Again, the bill was amended in such a. manner as not to interfere with the these districts are often so large that they are occupied by different Legislatures of Territories as they then existed, with the exception settlements and communities having diverse and antagonistic inter of Arizona, and the bill was passed by the House. ests. In such a condition of things candidates are often supported This bill expressly permitted Arizona to increase the number of and elected because of the locu.lity in which they live rather than members in her Legislature to correspond with the representation in their fitness to discharge the responsible duties of an important trust. the other Territories. I have thought that this action on tho part of Here again we find a difficulty which constantly works to the disa.d this House at this session indicated Us deliberate judgment; but if it vantage of the people. The locality having a mere numerical pre does not, then we must of course again consider the Sfi:bject on its ponderance of numbers controls the district and elects its man upon merits, and I therefore beg the attention of the comrnittee for a short a mere sectional consideration and motive. By lessening the size of time while I endeavor to state some of the reasons why the Delegates the districts these motives would not enter into the mind of the from all the Territories feel constrained to protest against the very elector, and he would be permitted to make his choice of a repro radical change in the fundamenta.tru law of the territorial organiza- tative upon considerations relating to the fitness of the man for the tions, which is now proposed. pla-ee he is to occupy. · The legislation heretofore adopted· by Congress, embraced in the The proposition as contained in the new legislation now proposed organic act of each Territory, has usually provided that the first Leg- looks toward an increase instead of a diminution of the evil just men- islature in the Territory should consist of a. certain small number, tioned. · either seven or nine in the council and thirteen ·or eighteen in the Again, I believe it is generally conceded that the more numerous is house of representatives, with authority in the legislative authority a legislative body, provided it be not so large as to be incapable of thus established to increase its own number to thirteen members of easy and expeditious action, the less liable is it to be controlled by the council and to twenty-six or twenty-seven in the house. The those agencies which are ever active and which ever tend to corrupt power thus conferred on the local Legislature has usually been exer- and poison the very fountain of our free institutions. I allude to the cised by increasing the numbers of each house to the maximum per- efforts to control legislation in the interest of special, -private, and mitted. The Committee on Appropriations now propose that the unworthy interests to the detriment of the public good. membership in these Legislatures shall be reduced to the number of Any proposition to reduce the present meager number of our Legis nine and thirteen, respectively, in the council and house; that the lative Assemblies excites-our concern, and indeed s-rave solicitude, compensation of members be reduced from $6 to $4 a day; that the because such a project tends not only to afilict us With the evils just officers necessary to the expeditious dispatch of business in these leg- named, but diminishes the probability of our Le~islatures being rep islative bodies be reduced as well ns their pay, and in order that the resentative in their character by substituting acmdent and chance for new condition of things thus created may be in other 1·espects pro- choice in the matter of the election of members. At present our vided for, the governors of the Territories are authorized to divide Legislatures are not so large as to be unwieldy or incapable of expo them into new council and representative districts and apportion rep- ditious action. Hence no advantage can come from diminishing the rese~tatives thereto upon the basis of the supposed population and number, while every evil incident to the existence of a small Legisla tbe new constitution of the Legislative Assembly. tive Assembly is likely to follow such reduction of numbers as is now I believe that the Committee on Appropriations in thus proposing proposed. important modifications of the laws relating to the local concerns of I fear the importance of a territorial Legislature to the people is the people of the Territories has usurped functions which more prop- but inadequately kept ~n the view of those whose good fortune it is erly and appropriately appertain to the Committee on Territories. to live under the permanent and fixed government of a State. I Had the Delegates from thE\ Territories supposed or had any rea-son therefore beg to direct attent.ion to the magnitude of the interests to suppose that such legislation as this would be proposed by the c6mmitte(l to the charge of these Legislatures. In the first place let Committee on Appr.opriations they would have sought a hearing be- me say that all rightful subjects of legitdation with some slight limit fore that committee before the bill was presented to the House. ation is necessarily conferred upon them. Gentlemen will perhaps But we submit that we were under no obligation to -suppose that underst.and it better when I say that what a State Legislature is to a such legislation as is now incorporated into this bill would be offered Stato a territorial Legislature is to a Territory. In fact it may be in an appropriation bill, for which reason we have had no hearing said that the limitations placed upon the power of a territorial Legis before the Appropriation Committee upon the subject. Indeed we lature by Congress are less by far than those which are usually im have sought no such hearing; for, having no information of the con- posed upon a. State Legislature by its constitution. templated a-ction of the committee and having no reason to expect Except as to such crimes as are cognizable by Federal authority, such action from a committee not having the subJect specifically be- (which are precisely the same in a Territory as in a State,) the whole fore it, we did not anticipate what has been done. The consequence, subject of criminal jurisprudence is controlled by those local Legisla then, is that a powerful committee of the House, in an appropriation tures. Our Legislatures not only determine what shall constitute a bill over which they have the control in the House, have proposed crime but the procedure by which it ~;baH be detected and punished, legislation affecting the Territories, a-s we believe, in a. vital manner, subject to nothing but the Constitut.ion of the United States and without giving us any opportunity to be heard. It is a. mere mock- such scanty-legislation as Congress has provided or may provide. ery to say that we may be heard in the Honse. Under the practice Hence our lives and our liberties are in the keeping of these Legisla. of the House we may not be heard at all, and at best we are not tures. Again, subject only to the imitations already mentioned, ·likely to get any such hearing as will enable ns to place the matter all rights of property, the methods of its acquisition, enjoyment, and before members of the Honse in its proper light. transmisAion, are in the control of these Legislatures, all questions of Besides, the measures affecting our interests havin~ been reported the inheritance of property and control over the same by will are also to the House with the approval of t.he committee mll have all the within the jurisdiction of the legislative power,which is sought to prestige which such a condition of things gives any proposed legisla- be reduced to a. mere collection of a few persons having no resem tion, and with many members who may be indifferent upon the sub- blance to a legislative body. ject, as not afiecting their immediate constituents, such a. report will A.]J questions of rights and wrongs, so far as the same are not de of itself be controlling. The changes proposed in our organic laws are fined and secured to all the people of the United States, wit.h a very nndonbtedlysou~httobe madeintheinterest of economy, and because few exceptions, are under the control of these ~egisln.tnres. They thepresentcond1tionofthe businessofthecountryanditsdiminishing regulate the procedure of the courts in all cases, by which rights are revenu~s demand such economy. I fully appreciate this plea, and protected and wrongs redressed. They create corporations and pre am entirely satisfied to submit to any cutting down of the expenses scribe their capacitfes, powers, and modes of actions, their duration, of the territorial governments where it can be dcne without injury the rights n.nd liabilities of their stockholders, ancl the remedies of to our people. . But I do most earnestly object to the proposed legis- · third persons against them while living and after their dissolution, 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 2979 subject only to the limitations of the Federal Constitution and the From this table it will be. . seen t.hat the average amount collected legislation of Congress; they regulate the right of suffrage, the right from each Territory annually is $30,222. This includes nothin~ but to bold office in the Territ01·ies, and all those rights which are de internal-revenue taxes. Whatever the people of the Territories as pendent upon or grow out of the domest.ic relations of parent and consumers of imported goods pay to the General Government is a. child, guardian and ward, husband and wife, and master and appren contribution in addition to the fiaures just named. Now an examina tice. They may determine and fix the competency of witnesses in tion of the appropriations as m~e for the Territories during the same courts of justice, and in general exercise a control over the people of period will show that the amount annually appropriated for each the Territory so vast in its proportions as to call imperatively for the Territory does not exceed $~,000. Hence we may reasonably claim best wisdom attainable iu selecting the members thereof. that taken all together we have not been such a burden upon the The policy which would, in such a matter as the constitution of a Treasury as some gentlemen may have been led to suppose. Legislature having such power as is here mentioned, subordinate May we not at least ask in. view of the showin~ that if we must every consideration of the public good to the sordid matter of ex submit to taxation without representation, which IS sometimes said pense coolu never, we apprehend, originate among men who had to be tyranny, if we cannot for a while have republican forms of given the subject that profound examination which it justly merits. government, we shall at least be furnished by those who insist upon I fear that the Committee on Appropriations, in reaching a conclu caring for U6 with good governments, so contrived as, according to sion to cnt down the Legislatures in the Territories, have allowed but human experience and observation, to escape so far as possible the a single consideration to have weight in the determination of the evils which lie in the way of proper protection to life, liberty, prop question: the mere matter of economy and the saving of expense to erty, and the pursuit of happiness! the General Government. If this be so, it illustrates the impropriety There are many minor objections to special features of the legisla of a committee unde;rtaking to legislate upon a subject not specially tion against which we protest. I will content myself for the present within Us cognizance. I submit that the question ought as well to by referring to one of them. be considered in the light of its probable effect upon and among the If the new legislation is adopted the Territories must of course be people who necessarily will be affected by the proposed change. newly districted and new bases of representation fixed. This the bill Will the proposed change in the law give the people of the Terri undertakes to provide for by investing the governors of the Terri tories better Legislatures and better legislation f Will it have the tories in the first instance with the authority to make the new appor-. probable effect of sel~cting men with reference to their probity and tionnients and designate the new districts. their fitness to conceive and adopt such measures as will be conducive No census being required the whole matter of the comparative to the public good rather than with reference to the question as to representation of different portions of the Territory is practically whether they live on one side of a river or mountain or on the other absolutely in the hands of the governor, an official that does not rep side f Will it be more likely to get men into the Legislature who are resent our people, and who is in no legal way responsible to them. representatives of ideas rather than of localities f .Will it be more His power to do injustice to a portion of the people of the Territory likely to get a Legislature that will be more difficult to control by cor for the benefit of another portion is therefore clear, without any rupt, corrupting, and private interests f Will it be likely to assemble responsibility on his part to the people who may thus be wronged, legislators who will bring to the discharge of their duties a knowledge and the wrong which may thus be done is in the first instance invested of the wants of all sections of the vast country for which they legis with the power to perpetuate itself; because if any section of a Ter late and all the interests which are .found therein, as well as a dis ritory found itself in possession of an undue proportion of the legis position to promote the well-being of the entire Territory f I appre lative power and at the same time invested with the ability to retain hend that every one of these questions will have to be answered in what it had, all experience teaches that a voluntary surrender of tho negative, and yet I cannot but believe that the Committee on privileges thus once tasted is not likely to be made. Appropriations must have wholly ignored all these important inter For the reasons which I have thus undertaken to recite I protest ests which, in my judgment, vastly outweigh the mere matter of against those features of the bill now before the committee to expense to the General Government. which I have alluded, not with any large degree of hope, I confess, The Territories of the United States are considered and treated as that my protest or the protests of others similarly situated are likely in a condition of childhood or pupilage, to be accorded an equal right to receive any very serious consideration. I say this because I no and privilege in the Federal Union as soon as their respective popu tice on the part of leading members of this House a sort of fondness lations and circumstances fit them for such right and privilege. Upon for iterating and reiterating the absolute and despotic power which no other theory or reason could their equal right with other people Congress possesses and may exercise over the Territories and their in the Union to representation therein be denied, while we boast of inhabitants. living in a Government republican in form. If, therefore, the Federal Gentlemen allude to the absolute power of Congress over the Terri Government exacts from us the obligations of a condition of pupilage tories as though it were something to be proud of under a republican and childhood, we may reasonably exact in return such protection form of government. But I wish to assure gentlemen that it is just and aid at all times as our dependent condition requires for our devel aa true now as it was when Jefferson wrote and Washington fought opment and welfare. While this relation continues we insist that for the establishment of these free institutions that all governments it is unfair and unjust on the part o.f the General Government to fur derive their just powers from the consent of the governed; that t.axa. nish us only with an inadequate form of local government, subject to tion without representation is tyranny; that a government without all the evils which statesmanship in the construction of government responsibility to the governed soon learns to disregard the interests labors to avoid, upon the ground and plea that it is done to save of the governed, and that these maxims apply with redoubled force expense. But the General Government has no right to complain of where the governors are numerous and powerful and the governed the matter of the expense of the territorial governments, as we be are few in number and weak in a.bility to resist injustice. If any one lieve the figures will show. doubts the value of the elective franchise us a substantial means of I submit herewith a table showing what amount of taxeE! have protection to the citizen, let him occupy a seat upon this floor awhile been exacted from the people of the Territories in the form of inter as a territorial Delegate and those doubts will surely be removed. nal revenue since the establishment of that system of taxation. Mr. FENN. It appears to me that the Committee on Approprin. tions in looking around for some pJ.ace where to exercise their spirit Amount of internal revtmue collected frortt the present Territories, exclwtive of economy have thought they would experience the least difficulty of adhes·ive stamps. in exercising it upon the Territories, which have no power here and have no right to these appropriations except as doled out by the Gov ernment of the United StattlS. But I am fearful that members of the committee have forgotten the fact that the Territories of this nation are themselves the great feeders of revenue in proportion to their population. N'ow let me bring to their minds a fact which they do not seem to know: that what to-day are Territories of this nation have paid to this Government while they have been Territories-leav ing out those that have become States in the mean time-the enor mous sum of $3,914,354.72 as internal revenue. Arizona...... 1867 12 $137,329 56 Let me say to the gentlemen of the Committee on Appropria.tions Dakota...... 1867 12 108, 976 00 Illallo ...... 1866 13 567,484 12 that my little insignificant Territory of Idaho, which in 1870 ha.d a Montana. .. •• . • ...... • ...... • ...... • . 1865 14 732,394 68 population of 14,999, as shown by the United States census, paid in :Now Mexico ...... 1863 18 575,1134 11 that year between $65,000 and 70,000 internal revenue to this Gov Utah : ...... 1863 18 606,791 70 ernment-between $4 and $5 per capita. Let me say to these gentle Wnshlngton...... • ...... 1863 18 594,355 11 Wyoming . • ...... 18ti9 10 112,655 09 men also tha.t the Territory of 1\Iontana, with her twenty thousand population, paid over $5 pel' capita. Let me say·to the same gentle Total...... ;: ...... • 115 3, 475, 613 37 men-for I ha.ve not time to go through with all these facts as I would To which alld approximate amount received from ad· hesive stamps...... • • • • . . •• • .. 438, 741 35 like to, but will print the tables aa part of my. remarks-let me say to the gentlemen that while Idaho paid that amount of int-ernal rev Total...... -...... 3, 914,354 72 enue in proportion.to population in that year, the State of Vermont paid only at the rate of $1.12 per bead, the State of Maine $1.27 per A veraiJ:e collections of each Territory n:uned for each year internal revenue ht\8 head, the State of Minnesota $1.06 per bead, the State of. Iowa $1.15 been collected, $30,~. · per bead, ~q~ ~~te of Kansn.s ninety-four. cents per head, the State 2980 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. APRIL 30-, of South Carolina fifty-ejgbt cents per bead, and the State of Arkansas teen representatives and have the varied interests of t.he people prop seventy-six cents per bead. These tables will furnish valuable in erly represented. Let me say here that these original acts were fixed formation: with a sound understanding of the fact that the Territories were TABLE No. 1.-Table showing the anwunt of internal revenue collected going to increase and require increased representation. I wish to say from the present Territories, e:wlusive of adhesive sta.mps. (See report this: that it is as impossible for the sun to rise in the west as it is of the Com.missioner of 1nternJLl.Revenue, 1877, pages 13d, 139, 140, 141.) for nine members in a territorial council to represent all the various interests of a Territory, diversified as they are and the settlements Ill t] ~ so widely apart. ,..,.. Mr. DURHAM. Oh, yes; you are children incompetent to take care Utah the per diem of the members of the Legislative Assembly shall of yourselves, as all of us have been; yon are pa-ssing through the be reduced to $3 a day. At that rate, if the number of members of the pupilage that every T0rritory ought to go through, but you are under Legislature of the Territory be left as at present, the cost to the Gov taking in some of the Territories to put on airs, and very extravagant ernment would be 4,680 for one session ; a difference of only $360 ones. - between the proposition submitted by the Committee on Appropria You in the Territories want to have more members of the house of tions and the amount that would be required to lower the per diem representatives and of the council than many States of this Union of the members to $3 and to let the number of the members of the have in their Legislatures. I will take my own great State, with a council and the house stand as at present and as they have been for million and a half of population; its Legislature is composed of one twenty-eight years. hundred representatives and thirty-eight senators. Tho great State Since this paragraph has been under consideration I have conversed of Ohio has in its Legislature one hundred and ten representatives with most of the Delegates from the Territories, and I find them nearly and thirty-two senators. Yet you in the Territories want almost as unanimous in the opinion that if any change ha.s to be made they many members in your Legislature as the great State of Ohio has would much prefer that the per diem of the members of the Assembly in its Legislature. Is that fair and right f And the Government be lowered than that the number of members shall be changed. At is to be taxed for it. the present time, there are in the aggregate three hundred and two The idea upon which this bill has been framed is that the Terri members in the eight councils and eight houses of representatives in tories shall have a fair representation in both branches of their Legis the eight Territories of the United States. If their per diem' were to latures, and we say to them at the same time that they shall not be be reduced to $3 a day for forty days, it would require $36,240 to extravagant and give their representatives 50 per cent. more than pay them. The Committee on Appropriations in the pending para representatives in many of tho Legislatures of the great States now graph propose to reduce our councils to nine members and our houses. receive. · to ei~hteen, making twenty-seven members of both bodies for each [Here the hammer fell.] Terrttory, which in the aggregate would be two hundred and sixteen The CHAIRMAN. Tho time of the gentleman has expired. for the eight Territories. They propose to pay each member $4 a Mr. CANNON, of Utah. New Mexico and Utah were organized as day for forty days. This will amount to $34,560. Now, I submit that Territories twenty-eight years ago, and in the organic acts of those if economy be the object of the committee, by the plan I propose Territories the number of the council of the Legislature waa fixed at reducing the per diem, and not the members-they can accomplish thirtoon, and of the house of representatives at twenty-six in each their object equally well and not disturb the condition of affairs which Territory. There was no sliding scale in either of the organic acts. exists at the present time in the Territories, and save the necessity The territorial Legislature in each Territory was organized with the of the redistricting of this immense area of country; for the differ number of members prescribed in the organic acts. ence between the sum required, if the per diem be lowered, and the By_their organic acts, forty days ann nally wa.s the time fixed for the sum which the committee -propose in the pending paragraph is only length of sessions of the Legislature. A few years ago Congress $1,680, and this divided among the eight Territories and only required changed the law in this respect, probably in the interest of economy, every two years. If the Government cannot afford to p·a.y-this addi and provided that the session of t.he Legislature in each of the Terri tional $1,680 every two years I have no doubt the Territories them tories should not exceed forty days biennially. That is the law at selves would gladly make it up rather than this breaking up of ::ill the present time. We can meet in our Territories every two years their districts and the labor involved therein should occur. and continue in session for forty days only, for the purpose of trans For my own Territory I may say tha.t I am sure the legislators of acting all the legislative business connected with the vast, growing, that Territory would rather consent to that reduction of their per and varied interests in those Territories. diem, if compelled to do so, and it be necessary in the interest of I represent a Territory which has now a population of at least one economy, than that the legislative business of the Territory should hundred and fifty thousand. Taking the ratio of increase from 1860 be crippled. I will not say anything as to the cost of the territorial to 1870, as shown by the la-st census, and applying it to the past eight government, although much might be said in reply to the criticism years, it would show that there is a. population in Utah Territory to of the gentleman from Kentucky [Mr. DURHAM] in that respect. I day of one hundred and fifty thousand. know that in my own Territory we would gladly bear all our legis A few days ago I received a memorial adopted by the Legislative lative expenses and pay the salaries of our governor and judges if Assembly of my Territory and signed by the governor, asking Con we had the privilege of electing them. But so long as they are selected gress to increa-se iihe length of session of the territorial Legislature for us, and our legislation is supervised, and no bill can become law, from 'forty to sixty days, for the reason that a session of forty days however unanimously passed, without the sanction of the governor, in two years is entirely inadequate to enable our Legislative Assem then I think that the Government which appoints the men should pay bly to perform the necessary duties devolved upon it in connection them. Change this rule and we would gladly pay our officers our with the growin~ interests of the Territory. That memorial has been selves. referred to the t;ommittee on the Judiciary. We need an extension The CHAIRMAN. Debate has been exhausted upon the pending of time; forty days in two years is entirely too short a time in which amendment. to transact the business that the Legislative Assembly of the Terri 1\Ir. DURHAM. I withdraw my pro jtYrma amendment. tory has to attend to. Mr. KIDDER. I had not thought of making any remarks at all I am of the opinion that every man acquainted with the Territory until I heard the gentleman from Utah, [Mr. CANNON,] and in fol which I represent, with its condition, with the requirements and ne lowing out a suggestion which he has made I will say that so far as cessities constantly arising for legislation upon various subjects, will the Territory of Dakota is concerned I will consent that the per diem say that sixty days in two years is little enough and that forty da:vs of members of the Le~islature shall be only $3. It may be enough; is too short a time. • I do not know but that 1t is. True the per.diem has been $6 heretofore, It is proposed by the paragraph of the bill now nuder consideration but the Committee on Appropriations, undertaking to go upbn the to reduce the number of members of the territorial Legislative Assem scale of economy, propose to reduce it to $4. Of course if we can re blies. It is here proposed tohavetwenty-sevenmen do the work in forty duce the salary aml allow the members of the territorial Legislature days which thirty-nine men have herotofore done. The thirty-nine enough to pay for their bread and cheese while at the ca. pital, we might now complain that they cannot do the necessary work in forty days, as well do it. It will perhaps give some of our clever fellows a littl~ and ask for sixty to do the work in. Is it reasonable to suppose that more opportunity to become great men as members of the Legislature. twenty-seven men can do the work more efficiently and speedily than Of course they think as much of those positions a-s the Lonorable thirty-nine canT I am aware that there are times and circumstances members of this committee do of theirs. Some of them, too, I wish when small bodies will transact business to better advantage than to say, are very competent. A few years ago many gentlemen now large ones; we all know that. But I question whether reducing on this floor were living in Territories and were perhaps no more re the number of the council from thirteen to nine, and of the lower spectable and, if I may be allowed to say it, no more competent for house from twenty-six to eigh~en, will be in the interest of the speedy the official positions they then held than some of us who now reside and proper transaction of the legislative business. On the contrary, in the Territories. I think it will be found that the Legislature will be overburdened with Almost one-third, certainly one-fourth, of tbe entire area. of the work, and when the session shall ciose it will be found that the leg United States belongs to the Territories. Why is it tha.t this Com islators have not been able to complete the labor devolved upon them. mittee on Appropriations desire to belittle us-to make us smaller f [Here the hammer fell.] Out in that western country we are enlarging and expundiug; a,nd if The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. these gentlemen would go out there and see with their own eyes what Mr. CANNON, of Utah. I would like a few minutes more. has been done and what is now doing there, they would be aston Mr. POUND. I will take the floor and yield to the gentleman from ished. I could show them one farm of ten thousand acres of wheat; Utah. · another of eight thousand ; others not much smaller. Why should Mr. CANNON, of Utah. I thank the gentleman. I have a propo the Committee on Appropriations undertake to cripple us f sition in the interest of economy upon this subject. As the law now I will say frankly that it is very much more easy to learn to nurS6 stands, the salaries of the members of the Legislative Assemblies of than it is to be weaned. [Laughter.] When we have now our thir the Territories for one session amounts to $9,360. By the pending teen members of the territorial council it strikes us as a little uncivil para~raph of this bill it is proposed to reduce this amount to $4,320, that this number should be cut down to only nine. A few years ago that 1s by making the salary $4 a day for forty days and for twenty when Dakota Territory was organized we had only six thousand peo seven members. ple; now we have nearly one hundred thousand, and we have :.m Now if the Committee on Appropriations desire only to save the extent of territory of one hundred and seventy thousand square miles. money of the Government, I will propose that for the Territory of I -find no fault with the Committee on Appropria..tiollj because they 2982 -CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. APRIL 30, go upon the scale of economy; but I will say to them that when they cera the Territories shall have~ They have not only done that hp.t can run this Government without paying anything it will be after they have gone into all sorts of legislation. There is not an appro this session. [Laughter.] priation bill which comes in which is not loaded down with general I do not know what one distinguished gentleman representing the legislation; not one. 'l'he time will come when the House will revolt Committee on Appropriations meant by referring to the people of the against such things as that. I thank the gentlemn.n for that word. Territory as "putting on airs" and as needing "spanking." I do not I have no objection to the House limiting the Territories and the know whether he intended to refer to the Delegates here ; but I be number of senn.tors and representatives they ought to have, but I lieve the territorial delegation have behaved about as well as almost rise simply to J'rotest against this practice. If I were allowed a sug anybody; I have never heard any fault found with them. Some of gestion, being a young member of this body, I woulu say to the ven us have grown almost too old to be "spanked." I do not appreciate erable gentleman who is at the head of the Ways and Means Commit the application of the phrase if the gentleman meant to apply it lit tee he had better go to the Appropriation Committee if he wants to era-lly. That gentleman and myself are warm friends ancl I would pass his tariff bill and have it put on as a rider upon one of the be the last one to undertake to tackle him; his arms are too long. appropriation bills. I would suggest, too, to the chairman of the Mr. DURHAM. I referred to members of the territorial Legisla Military Committee, when he wants to extinguish the Army and blot ture as "putting on airs," not to members of the Congressional dele it out, that he had bett-er go to the Appropriation Committee and gation. make arrangements with them to put it on an appropriation bill. And [Here the hammer fell.] so with all these other committees. Mr. ATKINS. Mr. Chairman, I have no prejudices whatever against Here is the Committee on Territories charged with this duty. They the 'l'erritories. I recognize them as the germs from which future are charged with investigation into it. They are charged to see to it States of this great Republic are to spring. I respect the hardy pio in the interest of economy and every other interest that these Territo neer; I respect the settler who goes out and ·braves the dangers of ries are run in a proper manner and form, and yet upon this appro the frontier. I respect the intelligence and the patriotism of all-such priation bill there stands the substantive legislation, so many mem men; and I have no criticism to make upon them in any way. The bers of the Legislature and no more shall be allowed to each. I simply position which I took in arguing the point of order was a legal, a con rise to-day for the purpose of protesting against that sort of legisla. stitutional position. It was simply that under the theory of our Gov tion. ernment the Congress of the United States has supreme control over· Mr. FOSTER. I agree, Mr. Chairman, with much that the gentle the Territories. Twenty years ago, when I stood here as a member man from Indiana has said about general legislation upon appropria of the minority, that whole question was discussed more fully than tion bills, but his speech ought to be addressed to another subject. it has ever been discussed before or since, and it was then settled by It is well known to this House and to the gentleman from Indiana, the popular mind that _the Congress of the United States has supreme this Committee on Appropriations is invested with the power of legiR control over the Tenitories. That position cannot now be denied. lation on appropriation bills. In view of this, I take the ground that it is perfectly competent for :Mr. CALKINS. And I will be glad when the House takes it away this House to decide how many representatives and councilmen each from that committee. · Territory should have. Why not, if we pay for them; if we foot the Mr. FOSTER. That is where yourspeech should be made-to that bills' I will say to my friend from Dakota [Mr. KIDDER] that it point and that purpose. The Committee on Territories have not in does not come with very good grace from him to sneer at the Com troduced a resolution or bill of any sort reducing the expenditures of mittee on Appropriations because we stand here advocating economy running the Territories. All there is of this proposition is this: the in the administration of the territorial governments when the Gov Committee on Appropriations believe and feel, and I believe this ernment of the United States is called upon to provide the means for House feel, these Territories have been exceedingly extravagant, and paying those expenses. in times of reform they have felt it was their duty to put the knife 1\Ir. KIDDER. Mr. Chairman-- in to reduce expenses. I think myself, after examination of all the Mr. ATKINS. I cannot be interrupted now. As to population, I subjects which have come before the committee, that not one appears will say that in my own State, for instance, one representative rep to me to be so extravagant as these Territories. All the committee resents about twelve thousand people and one senator fifty thousand. propose to do is to reduce the number of representatives from about Yet gentlemen here from the Territories complain that their council forty to about thirty. The Territory of Idaho has a representative men are to be reduced to nine and their representatives to eighteen, for every three hundred of her people. Is not that extravagant t though not one Territory represented on this floor had as many as Ought not this House in some way to take hold'" of this matter t The one hundred thousand people in 1870. The gentleman admits that in Committee on Territories has not brought the proposition here. The his Territory the population is only fourteen thousand, so that there is Committee on Appropriations, under the rules of the House, have one councilman to almost every one thousand people, while in my brought it here. I do not believe the rule is a wise one, and I voted State a senator represents fifty thousand people. As to extent of ter against it and so did most of those on this side. It is within the ritory, what is true in regard to my State applies still more strongly rules when the committ.ee reports this legislation. It is in the inter to other States-New York, Ohio, and one or two other!!J. One sena eAt of economy. It is right, and I hopo the Honse will sustain it. torial district of my State is one hundred and fifty miles long, and a Mr. CALKINS. I withdraw my formal amendment. mountainous country at that. Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Mr. Chairman, I would not have How does the pay we propose to allow to .territorial Legislatures ventured to say a. word in this connection except for the remark of compare with the pay allowed in the States' In my Stat-e we give the gentleman from Indiana when he expressed the hope that the our members of the Legislature $4 a day; and I think it will be found House would soon alter the rules and strip the Committee on Appro that this is about the rate in most of the States. But in the Territo priations of the power it now possesses to reduce the expenditures of ries the members of the Legislature have voted themselves 6 a day the Government in the interest of the people. out of our pockets. If they had voted it out of their own pockets Mr. CALKINS. Oh, no; the gentleman misunderstood me; it was there might have been some propriety in it. But as this money comes to put general legislation upon appropriation bills. from the Treasury of the United States it does not seem improper Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) I understand that. That rule, sir, that the Committee on Appropriations, char~ed with the regulation was one of the most salutary ever enacted. The remarkable spectacle of the expenditures of Government, should nave some humble voice existed prior to the Forty-fourth Congress of the ability of the House in saying how much these members of the territorial Legislatures shall to add any amendment changing existing law on appropriation bills receive from the United States. which increased the number of employes or increased the salaries paid Now, then, I intend to read in the single moment of time I have to them. i left something of the population of the different Territories. The The Forty-fourth Congress at its first session changed the rule right . gentleman from Utah says he represents 150,000 people. How does about fa-ce, and said, "You may alter law in the direction of economy, he know he has 150,001) people in that Territory Y We have taken no but you shall not alter law in the direction of extravagance." And 'census of Utah and how does he know that! There were only 99,000 that is one . ~f tbe chief jewels in the crown of a democratic Honse. nuder the census of 1870. Mr. HAZELTON. The only one. [Here the hammer fell.] Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Perhaps it maybe as suggested by 'The CHAIRMAN. Debate is exhausted on the pending amendment. the gentleman from Wisconsin, that it is the only one. However, it Mr. CANNON, of Utah. I move to strike out the last word to show is brig~ter than all others; for I tell the gentleman you would be more ho'w l know there are 150,000 people in Utah. than $50,000,000 behind to-day in the revenues of the Government Mr. CALKINS. I move to strike out the last word. but for that very rule. And the democratic side of the House can The CHAIRMAN. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Indi well afford to stand litera~y and steadily by the enactment of that ·ana, [Mr. CALKL.'iS.] rule; and I hope they will always find enough on this (the repull Mr. CALKINS. Now, Mr. . Chairman, I rise to protest again, as I lican) side to aid them in the practical enforcement of it. have on several occasions, against the Committee on Appropriations And just let me say here what I dislike to see constantly. I dislik~ absorbing the·entire 1egisla.tion of this House. I want to say to the to see the republican side of the House whenever a. question of ex younger members·of this body the time haacomewhen they will have penditure is concerned voting for large runonnts. There are men to assert themselves,'or will come before long. We have the Com among you here who believe in reducing the expenditures of the Gov mittee on Territories specially charged with the duty of seeing how ernment; and when a fraction falls off from the other side instead of many officers· the Territories should have and all that sort of thing, herding yourselves together and promoting extravagance yon ou~ht and yet I find in the appropriation bill a committee charged exclus to discriminate, you ought to aid those who want economy. This ively with making appropriations to meet the necessary expenditures is not a partisan question and you should not allow it to be made a. of the Government putting ·into their bill how many territorial offi- political one. It is as much your duty as representative republicans . 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. 2983 to go in behalf of economy as it is of democrats to go in the direction Mr. HA.LE. I am obliged to the Speaker for the compliment he of economy; and I do not belie:ve you gentleme-n on thls side represent bas seen fit to bestow upon the minority of the Committee on Appro your constituents faithfully when you come here and herd together priations, but I am not willing as a member of that minority to take in bebaU! of extravagance. . any credit at the expense of my party of an unjust criticism in the Mr. GARFIELD. I renew the amendment. Mr. Chairman, I do not face of what I believe to be the record of this House. propose to say anything about this" herding" together on this floor. The gentleman from Pennsylvania (the Speaker of this Honse) is Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) That was said respectfully, of an honest economist; be belie"\"es in it, but be bas never bad upon course. his bands so hard a task as he bas had this winter, not with this side Mr. GARFIELD. Of course; but I had proposed to say that know of the Honse, but in controlling the other side of the House in their ing, as I do, the history of the Appropriations Committee and its tendency toward bankrupting the Treasury. The whole machinery strug~les, and bow naturally it calls down upon itself the fire of all of this House is in the hands of its committees, and its committees the otner committees, it was, in my judgment, a very heavy load to were constituted by the Speaker after long experience in this body require that committee to carry in addition to the general antagonism and knowled~e of the gentlemen composing it, so that in making up they encounter, to make that the committee which was to rectify all the organization of the committees be should be presumed to know the legislation of the country. I believe it was a fatal mistake to where he would find the representatives of his economy. There bas put into the bands of t.hat committee the power to change all the not been a measure reported by any committee of this House that laws, any of the laws anywhere as they pleased. I have always be- involves danger to the public credit or to the public Treasury except lieved that. . at the bands of the majority of his party, and not of ourselves. Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) In the direction of economy. Ours is the duty to follow and not to lead here. It was not a repub Mr. GARFIELD. In the direction of economy. But what will the lican committee that reported the river and harbor l>ill, about which gentleman say in case something comes up tllat makes it necessary so much has been said here, and which the gentleman so strongly for the public service to increase an expense 7 Ought not the com opposed. mittee to be permitted to do t:hat if necessary Y Are they to be shut Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) You voted for it. up only to the business of cutLlng down f It is not the supreme end Mr. HA.LE. I did, but I was not responsible for its being reported. of a Congress to be economical. It is the supreme end of a Congress The gentleman does not believe in that bill. Why did he not stop itt to sustain the Government wisely. If economy ca.n be had too, that I believe that there were great ancl good features in the bill; but I is well; but if larger expenses are needed to carry on the Govern-· am talking now as to the responsibility of its report. Not a demo ment wisely Congress ought to have full liberty to do that. And to crat on the Committee on Commerce opposing it. The republicans shackle a committee so that it can only red.uce, without having any did not report it, and it would never have stalked into this House and power to enlarge in case of necessity, is to say we are not fit to be received recognition l>nt at the hands of the committee which heap trusted, and that we need to be shackled in advance. pointed. It was not a republican committee that reported the bill Now I believe that the rule to which the Spen.ker has referred has ~iving pensions to the soldiers of the Mexican war and the soldiers brought unnecessary odium upon the Committee on Appropriations. It m the various straggling Indian wars upon our frontier, which won1d has, as we have seen day by day, drawn out atta-cks by all the other com take millions and millions a year out of our Treasury, against all the mittees. If the Committee on Appropriations undertakes to reform precedents as to time set l>y all other pension .bills. The opposition judicial expenses by cutting down courts, they antagonize the Judi to that l>ill was lead by a gentleman upon this side of the House, my ciary Committee. If they undertake to reorganize the Army, they colleague, [Mr. POWERS,] a republican, and he was sustained by this antagonize the Military Committee. And so they are compelled in side of the House; and when the vote comes up on that bill my friend, pursuance of the playing of this :role to antagonize every leading com the Speaker, who is an honest economist, will be gratified to see that mittee of this House. They have to antagonize the House in regard almost every man on this side of that dividing aisle will stand np to expenditures. I am glad to support them whenever I can in the against it, while a chosen few will oppose it on the other side of the direction of economy, and I am equally glad to support them in the House. The effort for economy upon that side of the House is of the direction of enlarged expenditures, if such enlargement is necessary. cheese-paring kind, that pinches clerks in their salaries and turns I did not at the time the rn1e was adopted believe it to be wise. I out men and women needed for the work of the Departments. It am more convinced by the experience of the last year it was unwise. was not upon this side of the House that an effort was made to force I want to say another word. I think the Speaker is quite wrong through the claims of southern mail contractors. It was not the when he says this side of the House is constantly resisting reduction republicans who insisted that the clause in that bill should be stricken of expenditures and resisting economy. I bold that statement is out which provided that payment should not be made whjn the con utterly incorrect and unwarranted by the facts of our legislation. federacy had already paid the claims. It was a democrat who made Has not the Committee on Appropriations found my colleague [Mr. that motion, and it was a republican on this side or the Honse who FosTER] with them many and many a time in the reduction of ex detected and exposed the danger, and showed that these old southern penses f Have they not found me, although not on the committee, mail contractors were trying to get pay a. second time when they had generally willing to a.ssist them in their reductions f It is a charge been once paid. And so with everything that threatens danger to not to be borne on this side to say we herd to~ether to oppose econ the Treasury the opposition will be found here, and not upon the other omy. We do nothing of the sort. I point w1th satisfaction to the side. fact that in 1872 and from that time forward the expenditures of this [Here the hammer fell.] Government have been on a descending scale, and that, too, by the Mr. TOWNSEND, of Ohio, obtained the floor and yielded his time action of Congress, not only before the present party came into power to Mr. HALE. in this House, but since. I give that party credit for continuing a Mr. HALE. The truth is that the expenditure of the strength and work that was well, fairly, earnestly, and honestly begun while we influence of the Speaker in the direction in which be is looking should were in power. be made upon his fellow-members on the other side of the Honse. It seems to me not the thing to lecture this side of the House a.s It is not worthy of the dignity of his position to descend to the floor though we were resisting economy. We believe in two things: the and lecture us because we do not believe in such parsimonious nib support of this Government, cost what it may; and all the economy blings as taking a clerk at $1,200 and cutting him down to$1,100, or that is posoible in connection with the honest, fair, and reasonable for the sake of saving a few thousands to cripple a Department of support of the Government. the Government which is honestly striving to do the public service Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) I take issue on the facts distinctly and promote the public good by its best endeavors so that his con with the gentleman from Ohio, and I refer to the observation of stituents and mine and those of every member shall have their proper members on all sides of this House, whether in the main the repub business attended to properly. lican side of the Honse have not made their efforts as a party against It is not proper economy to paralyze the work· in the Pension the economy demanded by the Committee on Appropriations, and I Office, in the Surgeon-General's Office, in the office of the Adjutant believe the record will show it on the yea-and-nay votes. r confess General of the Army, so that men who are suffering and have been that I have from time to time chafed under such action by my polit for years for the want of their honest pensions, long since due them, ical opponents in this House. I know that their motives are pure. I shall be kept out of them until at last death strikes them down and .know that there are as good men upon one side as upon the other nobody is left to represent them. In these things it is good econ side of the Honse. I have heard the views of many of them on this omy to give a fair, indeed an ample ~orce, to perform the work subject, and many of them have said we are, as it were, misplaced in which is required, and while we are doing that, to stand upon guard, this respect. 1 think that many republicans in this House believe as gentlemen upon this side stand and have stood early and late, to their course proper, and it is with no disrespect that I appeal to see that huge appropriations shall not be taken for the benefit of one such no longer to persist in their opposition to economy in expendi section of the country, or that insidious laws do not creep into the tures, but that on the contrary they should. co-operate with members statute-book which in an indirect way represent not $1,000, or $10,000, on all sides and from all sections and of all political opinions in the or $100,000, but millions upon millions, and in the end will bankrupt work of economy. the Treasury. It is due that I should at the same time award praise, especially in I say to my friend from Pennsylvania, the Speaker, and I use tile this Congress, to the minority of the Committee on Appropriations word advisedly for he.]las no betterfriendon this floor, and my hand for the mapner in which they have co-operated in the committee and joins with him in almost all his efforts-! say to him that if he will . in the House with the full committee, and their recommendation to visit some of his censure upon that side of the House in public, as I reduce expenditures; but I say that in t.be main, as a general prop know he has often felt like doing in private, it will <'·Ome wit.hmuch osition, tbo republican members of that committee have not been better grace than any denunciations which he may feel inclined to . sustained as they should. have l>con sustained by their party a-ssociates pour upon this side of the Honse. We sb:ill not sit still and llear tbat. . upon tllis floor. · Mr. BEEBE. I will not detiilit the committee long; I m~oly desire 2984 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. . APRIL 30, to drn.w the attention of my friend from Ohio [Mr. GARFIELD] who committee rise for the purpose of obtaining an order from the. House has spoken of the gxeat reduction of expenditures of the Government limiting debate. from 1872, and who took occasion to felicitate himself and the coun Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. I think the objection is to the length try upon the fact that since the democratic party obtainetl control of of time proposed by the gentleman; if he will say fifteen minut~ I this House it had only continued tbe work commenced by his party -think it will be agreed to. to the official figures upon that subject.. By reference t.o page 16 of Mr. FINLEY. Ob, oo. the last finance report gentlemen will find a statement of the expend Mr. ATKINS. Then I move that tho committee rise. itures of this Government. In 1ti72 we find that the expenditures The motion was agreed to. of the Army were $35,000,000; in 187:3, unuer this extraordinary sys-· The committee accordingly rose; and the Speaker lL·wing resume{l tern of economy the expenditures of that branch of the service rose the chair, Mr. EDEN reported that pursuant to the order of the House to $46:000,000. When we look at the Navy we find that in 1872 its the Committee of the Whole on tho state of the Union had had under expenditures were $21,000,000; in 1873 they rose to $23,000,000, and in consideration the bill (H. R. No. 4104) making appropriations for the 1H74 they rose to $30,000,000. So we might go on through all the ex legislative, executive, and judicial expenses of the Government for penditures of the Government in detail. the year ending June 30, 1879, and for other purposes, and had come I will come now to the aggregate net expenditures of the Govern to no resolution thereon. ment. In 1872 the net expenditures of the Government as given in Mr. ATKINS. I move that when the House again resolves itself this official document were $15~,000,000; in 1873 they were $180,000,000; into Committee of the Wholo upon the legislative appropriation bill and in 187 4, still under this novel system of economy, they had swelled all debate upon the pending paragraph and amendments thereto shall to $194,000,000. be closed in thirty minutes. The people of the country understand this thing; and when a dis Mr. FINLEY._ I move to amend eo as to make it forty minutes. tinguished member of the democratic party arises in his place in The amendment was not agreed to. this House and states to his fellow-members on this floor and to the The motion of Mr. ATKINS limiting debate was then agreed to. country that it was only with the advent of the democratic party in Mr. ATKINS. I now move that the rules be suspended and the authority here that the era of economy dawned upon this country, House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole for the purpose of he states what the people know, although the ~entleman from Ohio proceeding with the consideration of the legislative, executive, and [Mr. GARFIELD] maybe ignorant of the fact. - judicial appropriation bill. I am not here for the purpose of arraigning my fellow-members in The motion was agreed to. this House. I believe that they all have a sincere, honest purpose to The House accordingly resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, administer this Government in that direction which shall best sub (Mr. EDEN in the chair.) serve the interests committed to their charge. But when the attt>n The CHAffiMAN. By order of the House all debate upon the pend tion of the country is called to the fact that the democratic party ing paragraph and amendments thereto is limited to thirty minutes. has addressed itself with all its great energies and with a devotion Mr. FOSTER. I withdraw the formal amendment. which merits the praise of democrats and republicans, and, in short, :Mr. HOOKER. I renew it. In reply to what has fallen from the gen of t.he whole people, and bas devoted its energies to the work of tleman from Maine [Mr. HALE] in response to the remarks of the retrenchment of expenditures of the Government, I say it is not gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. RANDALL,] in which he claimed exactly the thing for a ~entleman who holds so largely the public that the compliment pa-id to the minorit.y of the Appropriations Com confidence as does my fnend from Ohio [Mr. GARFIELD] to under mittee, because of their hearty union in the effort for economy on take to claim that it was while the republican party was in power this side was not deserved, I desire to say that those remarks come that the doctrine of economy found support. I see that the estimates with singular ill grace from a.gentleman who himself voted in favor of the Departments and the official documents bear me out in the of the main proposition to which he has referred as evincing an statement that prior to the accession of the democratic party to indisposition on the part of the democratic side of this Honse to power in this House the expenses of the Government were increa.sing enforce economy; I allude to the river and harbor bill, for which he from year to year. And while the republican Honse did in some de voted himself. It is well known to members of this House that the gree check that tendency, it did not, a.s has the democratic party last river and harbor bill failed entirely, and that the river and since it obtained control of this House, reduce those expenditures mill harbor bill which was reported the other day from the Committee ions upon millions. on Commerce by its chairman received the sanction of a two-third In order that the truth as to the expenditures of the Government vote of the House of Representatives. Gentlemen on the other side during the closing years of republican rule in this House and since of the Chamber, to the extent to which they gave their support to the accession of the democrats to power here may be made entirely that bill, have conceded that the mea-Sure waa no departure from the clear I submit, :Mr. Chairman, the following tables taken from the line of economy inaugurated on this side of the House. For myself, official reports of the Secretary of the T1·easury : speaking for the section of country which I represent, I voted some-: what reluctantly for that bill, because I felt that the appropriation Estimates of which it made in reference to the region of country I have the honor Amount of in- expenditures in part to represent was not a fair appropriation for the improvement Estimates of ex- Amount paid exclusive of of rivers and harbors upon which the commerce of the country so Year. penditures. tercst on tho for pens1ons. amounts paid public debt. for interest largely depends. But that bill wa-S sustained by many men on this and pensions. side of the House, as it was doubtless sustained by gentlemen upon the other side, because they felt satisfied with the appropriations which it contained. 1871 ••••••.••• $328, 360, 032 62 $125, 576, 5()5 93 $34, 443, 894 88 $168,339,571 &l .Another measure has been alluded to by the gentleman from Maine 1872 ••••••.••• . 309, 639, 319 61 117,357,839 72 28, 533, 4C~ 76 163, 748, 077 13 1873 ••••• ·····- 301, 705, 036 99 104, 750, 688 44 29, 359, 426 86 166, 594, 921 69 as evincin~ an indisposition on the part of this side of the Chamber 1874 .• ------308, 323, 256 27 107, 119, 815 21 29,038, 414 66 172, 165, 026 40 to enforce m truth and sincerity an economical administration of the 1e1s ••••••••••. 319, 198, TJ6 82 103, 093, ::A4 :57 29, 456, 216 22 186, 648, 976 03 affairs of the Government. I refer to the bill granting pensions to the 1876 ...... 310,030, i69 89 100, 243, 271 23 28, 257, 395 69 181, 530, 103 00 soldiers of the war with Mexico. I was astonished to hear the intel 1877 ••••••••••• 314, 612, 608 48 97, 124, 511 58 27,963,752 27 189, 524, 344 63 1878 •••••••••• . 299, 611, 671 00 ...... -...... ligent gentleman from Maine say that this side of the Chamber had supported that proposition because it looked t<> pensioning the peo ple residing in certain regions of the countxy. On the contrary, it The foregoing shows how the account stands as to the Department embraced in its provisions every soldier of that war, whether from estimates. Now I submit from the same official sourc~s a statement the North or the South, the East or the West. It proposed simply showing what the actual expenditures have been, less the amounts a tardy act of justice to those men who served our country in that paid for interest and for pensions : contest. It proposed to pension the survivors of that war some thlrty 18'71 ------·-----·····------· ------.. ··--·· •••••• -----. $123,139,932 70 years after its termination. In this it caunot be said that there was 1872 ------. ---·-...... --·-.. ---- .... -- ·-···· •••••• -••••• --··-.-- 124,668,453 43 any disposition on the part of the majority of this House to recede 1873 ·--•••••••••••••••••• ·-- -·-••• -·-··· ·-··· ••••• - ...... --.--•• • • 161, 129,210 04 1874 ••••• - •••••••• --···· ··-··· •••••••••••• •••••• ...... -- -· .••• 165,080,570 34 from the doctrine of economy and .retrenchment which was inaugu 1875 ·--···; --· .. ··------··· •••••• ·····-...... ·----- ...... ---. 142,073,632 05 rated in the Forth-fourth Congress for the first time in the adminia 1876 --·--·· ·-----. ···---...... - --·---...... - --.------136, 600, 417 67 trat.ion of the affairs of the Government. 1877 ···-···---···--.. --···-·---····--· ·------·-····--·· ...... 116,246,211 01 [Here the hammer fell. J i Thus it is apparent, that from 1870 to 1875 the expenses of the Mr. FOSTER. 1\fr. Chairman, the gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. 'Government, exclusive of the pension and interest accounts, steadily HOOKER] says that the doctrine of economy and reform was first •and enormously increa-sed. And the difference between the expense inaugurated in the Forty-fourth Congress. I have in my hand a. 4n-1874 ($165,0H0,570 34) and 1877 ($116,246,211 01) shows what dem table, the accuracy of which will not be doubted by any one who •.ocratic economy has done for the country. examines it. It shows that this reduction of expenses commenced Mr. ·ATKINS. I would like to see this debate closed as soon as pos in 1866 and ran along steadily through every year except one until •siltle, and I would like t."~ have a vote oa the pending proposition this 1877. In 1876 the reduction of expenses over the previous year wa-s evening. If it is agreeable to both sides of i!he House, I would sug more than $16,000,000. -gest tho.t•debate upon the pending paragraph and amendments thereto Mr. BLOUNT. What is the gentleman quoting from f ·be•c1osed in thirty minutes. Mr. FOSTER. From a table contained in a speech prepared by ·Mr. GARFIELD. All right. myself last year. Mr. FINLEY. Make it forty minutes. Mr. BLOUNT. What does it represent T Appropriation bills f Mr. HARRIS, of Virginia. Make it fifteen minutes. :Mr. FOSTER. It represents the whole expenses of the Govern Mr. ·ATKINS. As thete seems to be objection, I move that the ment. 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUS~. 2985 Mr. BLOUNT. Is it the statement of the Register of the Treasuryf Hon. John Sherman, at Marietta, Ohio, August 12, 1876, on dangers Mr. FOSTER. It is copied from the records of the Register of the of restoration of democrat:c party to power." Treasury, and is absolutely correct. This speech was the key-note of the campaign in the famous elec Now, I make the statement that in every year from 1866 down there tion of 1876. It was carefully prepared; and the chief object of the was a reduction of expenses below the preceding year, except the illustrious Sena.tor was to warn the country against the danger the year 1873. For the year ending June 30, 1876-the lastyearforwhich Treasury was in from the success of the democratic party. Most of the republican Congress appropriatecl-the reduction over the pre us received a copy from the honorable Senator just before leaving for ceding year was more than $16,000,000. our homes. The document which I hold in my hand is the original Last year onr democratic friends, and among them the gentlemen one sent me just before starting for the West, and was no doubt whose remarks to-day have brought on this debate, stated with a honestly intended to warn one of my youth and inexperience and great flourish of trumpets that they bad reduced expenses $30,000,000. economical tendencies against the support of the democratic party At that time I declared and proved that this statement was a mis in the famous battle it wa-s about to make in Ohio that year. I read take or a fraud. the speech carefully, Mr. Chairman, but the effect was different from Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) If the gentleman alludes to me, I that anticipated by the honorable Senator. never said .that. I said we had reduced the appropriations-- On page 4 I found the following confession as to the record of his Mr. FOSTER. I decline to yield. On every stump all over· the own party on this subject, and I lost all confidence in its honesty: country as well as on this floor the gentleman and all his party When the war closed innumerable claims against the United States were made stated tbH.t they had made a reduction of expenses of $30,000,000 a from the lately rebel States, and Congress in the most liberal spirit made provision }'ear. I can .find the statement of the gentleman from Pennsylvania for the payment of all that by the well-aetUed rnles of civilized war could bo properly made against the United States. The officers of the Departments, tho m which he said that if the country would give his party the control Supreme Court~ t.he Court of Claims, and the southern claims com..mission were of this Hol]se for another term they would reduce expenses t~n or authorized t() adjust; and pay different classes of claims and Congress pas ed twenty millions more. What are the facts f When the year was many acts for equitable relief, so that it may with safety be said that more than closed and the books posted there was exhibited a reduction of tlOO,OOO,OOO was paid after the war was over to citizens of the &nth for losses $19,000,000. But what next f Why, we have passed $8,000,000 of caused by the rebellion. deficiencies, and perhaps there are $8,000,000 more to come-I do not Mr. Chairman, observe the figures as ~o the claims paid by the re know bow many. The Committee on Appropriations did well; but publican party, one hundred millions. Now if that document had as has been stated by the gentleman froJll Maine, this extravagant had indorsed upon the back of it "Dangers of tho restoration of the House is to blame for these large expenditures. I say to the country republican party to power," I conld have understood it. that there never was in the history of this Government so extrava Mr. GIBSON. I wish to aak the gentleman from Ohio a question, gant a House as the la.st one and this one. · Why, Mr. Chairman, if and that is whether a dollar of that amount waa paid to any south gentlemen on the other side should be given loose rein, if it were not ern people not in accord with the Government during the warT for the men on this side who "herd together" to oppose extrava Mr. McMAHON. No. Tbemoneyallwenttoyour ''loyal'' citizens gance, the expenses would be so enormous as to break down the Gov of course, men who could prove that they were "Union men" during ernment. To-day members here ''herded together" and prevented the war. All that was necessary to be shown was that they were an appropriation of $75,000 being placed upon this bill. How was it good republicans, and then their bills were paid. And they were two years ago f It is true this side of the House did " herd together" paid to the tnne of $100,000,000! · Now what honest or intelligent ngainst reductions them proposed. Why f Simply because they were member on that side of the House will presume for one moment to carried to too great an extent. And what do you find now! The claim that our troops destroyed even ten millions of property belong· very bill we are considering to-day appropriates in the aggregate ingto the Union men of the South T No one! It is a base slander npon nearly $2,000,000 more than the bill reported by the gentleman from the troops. Yet our Treasury was bled by repub~icans to the extent Pennsylvania :two years ago. It provides for eight hundred more of $100,000,000, and for losses alone! Why, sir, in my judgment you clerks than did that bill. could have purchased all the property of the true Union men of the [Here the hammer fell.] ,.. South for one-fifth of that amount. Mr. HOOKER. The gentleman from Ohio [Mr. FosTER] will allow Gentlemen on the other side must change their tactics. With this me to ask him how he voted on the river and harbor bill f record they cannot expect to be credited with sincerity. And when . Mr; FOSTER. I wa-s not here; but if present, I should have voted they become so nervous and apprehensive as to the millions that the for it. I will ask, in reply, what committee reported it f " rebel" may appropriate to pay the "loyal" men of the South, let Mr. McMAHON. Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to go into any them moderate their fears as to the future of the country by contem discussion of the comparative records of either side of this House plating the fact that it has survived even their corruption and ordi upon the appropriation bills. I think the country i..~ thoroughly well nary extra.vagance. posted on that question. I think any man who reads the figures knows Mr. KEIFER. I do not propose, Mr. Chairman1 to undertake to that the country has profited by the incoming of a democratic Honse. answer in a general way or a special way many things said here on To offset this bad record on the subject of economy our friends on tho this subject. I want, however, to say that I should like to see this other side have recently been talking a great deal about certain claims Honse and the Congress of the United States go one step further than a.gainst the United Stat~s Government coming from the Southern has been advocat~d by the distinguished member. from the State of States; and to apologize to the people for their own want of support Pennsylva.nia, the Speaker of this Honse; I should like to see the of the economical policy of our party in the past, they constantly time, and I trust I will see the time when no appropriation bill will allude to what the democratic party is going to do with these claims contain or be permitted to contain any general legislation. I have in the future. That inevitablefutore, when the war claims are to be veryrecently looked at most of the constitutions of the States of the paid by us, even to the bankruptcy of the United States Treasury, is United States and I believe that in twenty-four of the States of this the great bugbear which is always held np in answer to that inefface Union they have found it wise to say in their organic acts in effect able past of extravagance and corruption which the gentlemen on that that all legislation in an appropriation bill other than that whicli side are solely responsible for. An uninformed person would be led pertains directly to the matter of appropriation shall be void. It to believe that these war claims were something new and startling would be found to be the highest kind of wisdom to.have a rulo~ utterly unknown to the virtuous and economical days of republican a constitutional rule, that would inhibit all legislation in an appro supremacy, and the result of a rebel conspiracy against the money priation bill, save such as pertained directly to the appropriation of of the North just to be inaugurated for the first time. What is the money. · fact! I want to say further that we should stop legislation of every char · The truth is that war claims are held by "loyal men." The law acter in an appropriation bill, and then it would become the duty of does not permit "rebels" to be paid. Proof of aoti ve, positive loyalty an appropriation committee to look to the existing laws of the land is an indispensable link in the proof. And the raid of war claims upon and legislate with reference to them in their appropriation bills. I the Treasury has been made by "loyal men" exclusively, aided by wish to say a word more. I am one of those that are classed here to.: their copartners of the ~orth having an interest in the proceed~. day as belonging to a" herd" that are voting against economy. I But more than that: so far from being a new raid upon the Trea deny the charge~ I deny it because I do not believe that stinted leg sury, it is one of long standing. It was first organized by republicans. islation in the way of paying for what we ought to pay for, in tho Its successes were greatest under radical rule. · The Treasury was way of making appropriations for the construction of public build attacked on all sides, and the money of the people flowed from every ings in this country is economy at all. I know that now we are pay quarter into the pockets of the pets of the republican party for ten ingin the shape,ofrentin the city of Washington larger sums annually long years. When the democratic party came into possession of this than would pay the interest at 20 per cent. on all the money it would Hom~e in 1875 war claims began at once to be at a discount. Com take to build good fire-proof buildings to preserve all the public rec paratively few came :favorably re~orted from the committee, and ords here. I know too that we could build these buildings here, and fewer still passecl the House. And what has this House done f H if needed elsewhere over the country, a.t thi meanest kind of economy, if it can be called that at all. That is of that committee. I will ask permission to attach the paper to my what I think about it. Parsimony is not economy; in politics it is remarks. demagogery. [Here the hammer fell.] The democratic party by failing to make the needful appropriations Mr. PAGE. I shall object to the gentleman printing the whole of in the Forty-fourth Congress for public buildings threw out of em that document in a five-minute speech. ployment many thousands of laborers. I am in favor of economy, .Mr. HEWITT, of New York. I ask permission to print the table that is, paying only the proper and ordinary wages to men who are only. employed by the Government. I do not be1ieve I would pay Con Mr. PAGE. There is no objection to that. gressmen any more t.han they are paid now. Yet the gentleman [Mr. Mr. HUMPHREY. I think the objection should prevail, as it is in RANDALL] who has spoken of the party I belong to as a" herd" voting the line of economy. against economy, has stood on the floor of this House and advocated There was no objection. the payment of $7,500 a year, including two years' back pay, to him The table referred to by Mr. HEWITI', of New York, is as follows: self and others. [Applause from the republican side.] [Here the hammer fell.] Bills reported favorably at the first sessi{)'fl, of the Forty-thi1·d Congress by Mr. HEWITT, of New York. The gentleman from Ohio [Mr. a t·epuhlican committee. KEIFER] who hasjnst taken his seat has been suddenly smitten with a feeling of objection to legisl:ttion on appropriation bills. I have Nqmberof Claimant. bill. Amount. Nature of claim. had occasion within the la~t few weeks rather carefully to examine the legislation upon appropriation bills when the gentleman from Ohio, [Mr. GARFIELD,] who does not now appear to be in his seat, William F. Kerr* •••. H. R.1404 $150 00 For one horse. was the chairman of the Committee on Appropriations; and I find VictorMylins""--····- H. R.1405 Pay as second lieutenant New that if legislation on appropriation bills is wrong then that gentle York Volunteers. William Stoddard"'-- H. R. 154 360 00 Money improperly collected by man who now expresses his inveterate dislike to it is more responsi United States. ble for such legislation than any other man in public life; for I do C. C. Spaid.s"' • --.•••• - H. R. 1582 For pay as second lieutenant not think that he ever reported an appropriation bill to this House Ill.fu.o1s Volunteers. . Chas. J. McKinney•.. H. R.1583 100 00 Leather taken by United State!~ which did not contain some special legislation. troops. The appropriation bill for the support of the Army, passed in 1870, SethLamb'sheirs"'.-- H.R.1585 400 00 Meals furnished United St..'l.tcs reorganized the Army in that year; and it is upon that appropriation bill only, thus reorganizing the Army, that the other side can claim John T. Watson...... H. R.l271 3, 962 00 s::t~at lost in United States service. any credit for economy whatever; for that is the year in which the Jane N orthedge"'. ___ . H. R. 2091 7,500 00 great reduction was made in the expenses of the Army, and which I Eif~sy~;k~~f~~~giment trust may be repeated by a similar process this year. John W.Divine"'-·-·· H. R.2092 738 83 Services as surgeon UnitedS~tes The gentlemen on the other side who now object to legislation on Volunteers. Robert F. Winslow*. . H. R. 22'ZJ 813 82 Services o.s colonellliinois Vol appropriation bills in the direction of economy are doubtless not un unteers. mindful of the fact that every Department of this Government is L C. :Risley* ...... H. R. 799 Services as second lieutenant In filled with their partisans; and they object possibly to cutting down diana Volunteers. the salaries of these men because of the recent declaration of the Iron-clad contrnctors. H. R. 217 5, 000, 000 00 Claims for compensation over contract price.. President that he would be pleased to be permitted in spit.e of his John Aldredge"'·--··· H. R.l104 9, 606 00 .Reimbursement of losses by civil-service order to contribute to the election expenses. A gentle rebel raid. man on that side of the House is reported in the public newspapers Albert F. Yerby*..... H. R. 2688 5,000 00 Stores and supplies taken by and it is not denied-to have gone to the President of the United United States troops in Vir ginia.. States and asked how the next campaign was to be carried on if they Emile Lapage"'.----.. H. R. 2689 For cottton, 25 bales, taken by were not permitted to assess the office-holders, and thereupon ·the United States troops. President came down from his lofty civil-service platform and said W. J. Mcintyre"' -•• ·- H. R. 311 P~ ~:=~~lieutenantlliinois not only might the office-holders be assessed but he would be glad to 0 Mark Davis"".-- •••••••••••••••••• 27,958 00 For reimbursement of rents im put his hand into his own pocket and out of his $50,000 s3lary con properly collected by United tribute to the expenses of the next campaign. "How are the mighty St..'l.tes Government. fallen I" Randall Brown• •••••• H. R. 633 1,200 00 For mulesJ wa~ons, &c., taken by rebelS wnile in United Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to call the attention of these gentle States service. men who are so afraid of claims to the comparative record which I Flora A. Darling"' .• -.•••••••••••• 5, 000 00 Reimbursement money taken hold in my hand and will make part of my remarks that they may from her by United States sol answer me hereafter if they see fit, showing that in the first session diers. of the Forty-third Congress-a republican Congress-a republican Thomas Day*...... H. R. 1283 6.W 00 FUt~W!aeSla~~!l~C:!~yed b! Committee of Claims reported favorably one hundred and nine cases Sidney Tinker• -----. H. R. 11310 Pay as litmten:mt Indiana Vol for damage in the Southern States, aggregating over $8,000,000. unteers. They are for horses, for cotton, for mills, for steamboats, for stores, Robert Tilson & Co."'. H. R. 2699 33,000 00 Damages in fulfilling contract with United States. for nursery stock, for damages under contract, for pay as pilot, for B. C. Bailey•. ·--···-· H. R. 488 2,816 00 Damnges for loss of vessel. every conceivable thing on which a claim could be based, amounting John J. Hayden,...... H. R. 2798 150 00 Extra services as United States • in the aggregate to over $8,000,000. In fact, if the republicans had mustering officer. carried the Forty-fourth Congress this list is very suggestive of the Louisa Eldia* -----··· H. R. 2891 691 00 Damage to building by Unitea States troops. rapid increase which might have been expected in the crop of loy Daniel F. Dulaney* .• H. R.l627 555 00 Property destroyed by United alty in the South under such a course of ample remuneration. Car States troops. pet-bagging, although a profitable branch of industry, must have GeorgeCowles*···--- H. R.2992 8, 625 00 Property destroyed by rebels. sunk into com~ara.tive insignificance alongside of this " new way to Cora A. Slocomb et H. R. 2993 38,500 00 Rent.s improperly coUected by al. * United States officers. pay old debts.' Norman Wiard •••••• H. R. 609 113,942 00 Now, compare that with the record in the first session of the Forty DuJf:d S~~:~ contract with fourth Congress, when the democrats for the first held power. There Michael Mulholland . H. R. 2994 3, 400 ()() Property destroyed by United were fifty-two cases reported favorably, involving the sum of 215,361 EmmaA.Porch*..... H.R.2995 650 00 Se~= ~J'sl~~:~esU~OOd only ; and out of those fifty-two cases there were only passed by the States scout. House seventeen, amounting to $74,453, against over $8,000,000 re Daniel Wormer*---·· H. R. 2996 4,500 00 Losses on horse contract with ported favorably by a republican Congress and all war claims and United States. George A. Schreiner•. H. R. 2997 ••••••. -... _-. Pay o.s pilot. most of them southern war cillims. Thomas Niles""._ ••• _. H. R. 2998 6, 000 00 Mr. PAGE. How much was appropriated for that purpose by the D:~~~':o~kab~llt~:fh~~~d Forty-third Congress f Selden Connor"' •••••• H. R. 2704 200 00 For horse lost in United States Mr. HEWITT, of New York. The amount reported by the commit service. John L. T. Jones*.;. H. R. 1620 4, 000 ()() Property destroyed by United tee favorably in the Forty-third Congress was over $8,000,000. States troops. Mr. PAGE. But how much was actually appropriated f John R. Hamilton.... H. R. 2506 300 00 Refund of commut..'\tion money. Mr. HEWITT, of New York. These are the amounts reported favor Leopold Straus".---. H. R. 801 50000 For clothing taken by United ably by the republican committee of the Forty-third Congress. St.ates soldiers. Children of B a k e r H. R. 3178 660 ()() Pay as pilot. Mr. PAGE. Did any of them pass the House and become a law f White.* Mr. HEWITT, of New York. I cannot tell you, but a reference to John S. Williams"' ... H. R. 3179 7, 000 00 For hay destroyed by rebels: the statutes will show the gentleman what is the fact. I will repeat, N.H. Dunphe* .••.•. H.R.3180 6,180 00 For sugar taken by Umted however, that favorable reports were made in cases amounting in the States troops. Mary A. Thayer ...... H. R. 3181 2, 000 00 Services aa nurse, United States aggregate to only 215,000 by a democratic House. . volunteers. Mr. SMITH, of Pennsylvania.. Will the gentlem~n from New York Jas. Barnett, heirs of• H. R. 3182 Five years' ~ay as first lieu- a1Jow me to ask him from what he is reading f tenant continental army. Mr. HEWITT, of New York. I am reading from a statement care J.D. Hale,.··-··--··· H. R. 3183 3, 425 00 Services as Union scout. Francis Dodge*...... H. R. 2844 10,000 00 Schooner destroyed by rebels. folly prepared by the clerk of the Committee on War Claims of the. Montgomery & Bur- H. R. 3l.A 131,000 00 Stores and supplies taken by Forty-third Congress, and the items are t:tken from the official records bridge. United States troops. ' 1B78 . CONGRESSIONAL RECORIJ~IIDUSE. 2987 ., Bills reported fa·vorably at the first sessio-n of the Forty-thi1·d Congress by Bills reported favorably at the first session of the Forty-third Congress by a t•epublican oomntittee-Continued. a republican oontmittee-Continned. Number of Number of Claimant. bilL Amount. Nature of claim. Claimant. bilL Amount. Nature of claim. Nolan S. Williams.... H. R. 3185 Stores and supplies taken by John J. Anderson.... H. R. 4870 $6,103 00 For cotton taken and damaged UniteU States troops in Louisl· by United States soldiers for ana. fortifying Na-shville, Tennes Treadwell S. Ayres*. H. R. 3186 16,000 00 Oooupation of building in Mem. see. phis, Tennessee, by United Butler, :Miller & Co., H. R. 1088 7, 224 00 i'or cotton taken and damaged States troops. and Hawk, Miller by United Sta.tes soldiers for David R. Haggard . • . H. R. 2939 Six months' pay as colonel Ken &Co. fortifying Naahville, Tennes tucky 'Volunteers. see. A. L. H. Crenshaw•.. H. R. 3269 5,500 00 Fifty-five mules taken by United James Lindsey...... H. R. 4871 874 00 For three guns furnished United States troops. States Army. John B. Tyler...... H. R. 1660 160 00 Horse lost in United States serv Bartholomew Agricul- H. R. 4879 1,550 00 For occupation and damages to ice. tural Society. fair-grounds. Sewell B. Corbett.... H. R. 3782 30,000 00 Crops, fences, and timber de Sterling A. Martin... H. R. 3046 8600 Extra pay for extra service as a stroyed, and damage to land soldier. and use thereof by fort and William Phillips..... H. R. 1662 For 14,020 pounds of augartakeri earth works. by United States Army at Edward Galla.gher . • • H. R. 3784 i3, 666 00 Use of buildin~ in An§crusta, Huntsville, Alabama. Georgia, by united tates MargaretJaneBurle- H.R. 4886 15,450 00 Property taken and used at De Army. son. catur, Alabama; referred to Newman & Vanhoof...... 20,000 00 Rent of mills in Alexandria, southern claims commission. man. Virginia. James Williams . . • .. H. R. 4887 2, 500 ()() Pay as scout. Thomas Hoard...... H. R. 329 2-2,000 00 Stores and supplies taken by Mrs. Eliza Porter.... H. R. 4888 10,000 00 For nursing Union soldiers at United States Army in Ten Charleston, South Carolina.. nessee. Isaac Taylor, .. • .. • • . H. R. 2319 10,000 00 For loss of bark Alvarado, at Emily Miller • • • • . • . . H. R. 900 10,000 00 Cotton taken by United States leged to have been burned by Army. United States naval anthon~ B. B. Conner & Bro.. H; R. 378.5 3,500 00 For laid taken by United States ties; southern claims commis· Treasury agent-s. sion. Charles W. AdaD\8*.. H. R. 3781 35,800 00 Gold and ship's stores taken by United States Army. Harriet Tubman..... H. R. 3786 2,000 00 Services as Union scout and *House of Representatives. nurse. Harriet Haines*...... H. R. 3787 1,000 00 Property taken and used by RECAPITULATION. United States troops. One bnndred and nine cases reported favorably by the Committee on WM Claims Mary E. Purnell. . • • . H. R. 3788 Two htmdred and forty bales of the House in the Forty-third Congress, the aggregate amount involved bein~t over S,OOO,OOO, includin~; the cotton caaes and all those where the amounts could ba~~~ie:!~dP~rt ~~d!~~ting not be definitely ascertamed, in which cases the amounts are estimated after care Joseph H. Maddox . . H. R. 3789 100,000 00 For tobacco taken by United ful examination. Specifically where the amounts can be ascertained the amount States troops. involved in the bills and reported favorably is f5,881,000. ·· :Maryville College, H. R. 3790 2, 000 00 Use of and damage to by United This list does not include the two bills making appropriations for cases reported Tennessee. States troops. allowed by the commissioners of claims ; that in the first session approp1iating Samuel Ruth et al . . . H. R. 3791 30,000 00 For services as Union scouts. $563,768 and that in the second session appropriatin~ the sum of $721,ti26. .· James :M. Wells ..••• H. R. 3792 3, 525 00 Stores and supplies taken by Now contrast the foregoin~~=h the following table of cases reported favorably United States troops in Louisi by the Committee on War C · of the Forty-fourth Congress: • ana. John E. Baumafl..... H. R. 3794 22,500 00 Use and occupation of mills at lrashville, Tennessee, by Bills reported favorably at the jh·st sess-ion of the Forty-fourth Congress United States troops. by a denwcratic oonunittee. Robert J. Edelen . ••. H. R. 3795 95 00 Repairs of carriage for United States quartermaster. Charles C. Gould . • • . H. R. 3796 2, 000 00 Reim~ursement money loaned Claimant. Number of Amonnt. Nature of claim. Umon pnsoners. bill Barbary Hurdle • • • • . H. R. 3797 191 00 Use and occupation of land by United States troops. R. T. Morsell..... •. . H. R. 3798 1,372 ()() . Do. First National""Bank, S. 58 *$28,650 00 United States bonds taken by Dr. Mary E. Walker. H. R. 37119 2, 000 00 Pay as surgeon United States Saint Albans, Ver- raiders from Canada. Passed volunteers. mont. House, Forty-third Congress. Joseph Anderson . . • . H. R. 3800 5, 000 00 Lumber ta.kenforuseof United R. H. Buckner* .. • • • . H. R. 2161 *tt To refund money paid on accoun~ States Army in Tennessee. of "direct-tax sale." F. C. Buffington . . • . . H. R. 3801 125 00 Horse lost by Morgau raid. James G. Williams .• H. R. 2457 *2,241 00 ServiceR as Union scont. Re R. H. Buckner""...... H. R. 3802 3,500 00 Reimbursement on acconnt of ported fa.yora.bly in Forty tax sale. third Congress. R. J. Henderson• . .. . H. R. 3803 7,253 00 For wood taken by United Bartholomew County, H. R. 2458 "tl,500 00 Use of grmmds by United States. States Army in Tennessee. lnilia.na, Agricul· Passed House, Forty. third Washington & Ohio H. R. 3804 4,900 00 Supplies furnished United tural Society.* Con~ss. _ Railroad Company. States Army. Purviance & Wyeth. S. 192 *4,500 00 Rent of building, Saint Joseph, Henry S. French..... H. R. 3805 Three hundred and thirty-six Missouri. Favorably in For• bales cotton taken by Sher ty-third Congress. man's army at Atlanta, Geor- John W. Gall ...... H.R. 262 Pay aa first lit~nt.enant in United gia. . te ...... __ . 1 States Volnuteel'l! for ten John McLaughlin .•.. H. R.3806 p ay as pnva .J.JJ..UO 2988 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-liOUSE~ APRIL 30, BWs 1·eported fa,;ombly at the first session of the Forty-fourth CQ1lgress by Mr. ATKINS. I do not recollect whether I said anything about a democ-ratic committee-Continued. that, but I am free to say that I expected that the general rule would be observed, giving half the time to each side. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair will then ask the gentleman from Number of Nature of claim. Claimant. bilL Amount. Georgia [Mr. BLOUNT] to yield to the gentleman from Michigan. If there was any understanding that the time should be divided the Chair desires to carry it out. The Chair ha.s not been acting upon Mrs. E. J. Brosnan* . . H. R. 3273 * t 15,000 00 Supplies taken for use of United that rule, but has been giving the floor to the members of the Com States Army. mittee on Appropriations in preference to others, but if that was the Susan E. Willnrd *... H. R. 3373 * t 3, 500 00 Rent of property by United States Army. und~rstanding the Chair hopes that the gentleman from Georgia will Harry E. Ea.atmnu•.. H. R. 3374 639 00 Pay as lieutenant-colonel ofWis· yield to the gentleman from Michigan and let the understanding be oonsin Volunteers. carried out. Harry L. Clock...... H.R. 3380 *215 00 Services, &c., as farrier in Unit ed States Army. Mr. BLOUNT. I take pleasure in adopting any suggestion of the A.F.&N.C.St.John H.R.1125 54 00 Oats furnished United States Chair, and resign the floor. Army. Mr.CONGER. Mr.Chairman,Ihaveoneortwowordstosaytowhich :Marvin H. Amesbury H. R. 208 *302 00 Veteran bounty, Cam. Volun· I calJ the attention of the honorable Speaker of the House. It is not teers. Cora A. Slocum et al. H. R. 3434 *2,420 00 Refund of rents improperly col the first time within the recollection of many of us when t.he gt>ntleman reimbursement of lected by United States. from Pennsylvania has thought it to be his duty to come down from the States for expenses Chair or to rise in his place on this floor and after making, as be is incurred in late re- capable of making, an eloquent, earnest, and forcible appea.l to t.he bellion. Gilorge W. Spotes.... H. R. 3492 *3,242 00 Srores and supplies for Unitec! House, and especially to the country, showing his zeal for economy, States Army. a zea.l which leads him beyond all party considerat.ion whatever in George Calvert...... H. R. 3493 *500 00 For use .by United Stnres of behalf of economy, to wind up the rhapsody by turning to this side ferry. of the H~mse commentin~ upon th~ir c.o~duct _ and being their Speaker Newman & Van Hoff. H. R. 1654 *18,430 00 Rent of Pioneer Mills in Alex man. andria., Virginia. denouncmg them collect.lvely and mdivtdu:illy to the country aa lend,;. Amelia. A. H. Rich- H. R. 3507 6,335 00 Srores and supplies for United ing their influence and their votes and all the power they have against ards. States Army. the onward glorious rush of democratic economy and democratic Amanda. Rains...... H. R. 2218 For medical services rendered United States soldiers. reform. William C. O'Brien.. H.R. 3680 2, 000 00 Use of saw and grist mill by Sir, I had thoughtattimesthatifthegentleman wouldgo and attend United States forces in Kan the frequent caucuses of his own party and say to them what he says· sas. here on the floor of the House-more to the country than for them or B. B. Connor & Bro... H. R. 3681 *4,420 00 Land improperly seized, sold, and proceeds paid inro the for us, if he has the influence he claims, if he has the influence with Unit-ed States Treasury. his party we believe he has, if he has the influence we believe he Wm. J. Alexander ... H. R. 255 250 00 Pay as United States detective. ought to have-one hour of private devotional labor in the caucuses Emma.A. Porch ..••.. H.R. 102 •soo oo Services as Union scout. of the democratic party, with his voice thundering in the ears of his B. F. Reynolds~...... H. R. 1237 * Six months' pay as captain of United. States volunteers. colleagues there, as it does here, would promote the· object he seems so HenryS. French.... . H. R. 4':'3 * Cotton claim referred to Court earnestly to desire. of ClaiiUS. Why should the Speaker of the House come down from his place Gerald Wood ...... H. R. 3796 .••••••••. .... Revolutionary claim. to lecture me or you or any other man personally or as n. partisan. I Protestant Orphan H. R. 3804 *1, 750 00 Rent of by United Stntes forces Asylum, Nat()hez, during late war. submit to it because the gentleman's voice when he speaks a.s a poli.;. tician is potent in this land; I submit to it because the overshadow Pi~!~~~oks... H. R. 3287 3,524 09 Tobacco improperly seiz-ed and ing of a presidential nomination gives his voice power 1.11 over the sold by Treasury agents. land, and whips in his reluctant followers with that kind of gratitude William Buckby..... H. R. 1626 *1, '738 00 Supplies furnished United States prisoners. which has been defined to be "the expectation of favors to come." Mrs. Mary &.ott, Ken- H. R. 4062 23,437 00 Stores and supplies furnished [Laughter.] tuc~. by United States. Now, sir, the gentlem:m has admitted time and again., as the Globe John T.Armstrong .. H.R. 4081 1,840 00 Use of wharf in Alexandria by United States. and the RECORD will show, for years pas~ and bas stated that year Dr. A. G. Tebault . . . H. R. 4082 *1, 000 00 Servic-es rendered and medioines by year the decreasing business of the uovernment, with the de furnished "contrabands." creased expenditures necessary with the decreased industry, a reduc Thomas Burke. . . • • . . H. R. 1136 *1, 100 00 Services carrying United States tion of from $11,000,000 to 23,000,000 a year could be made in n. year, mail. and now he dare not claim-llere that there ha.s been any greater pro A. L. H. Cremham ... H. R. 2317 *6, 875 00 Mules furnished United States. Dr. Mary E. Walker. H.R. 4089 *2, 000 00 Services as surgeon United portionate reductions in the years when he has been the leader of the States volunteers. majority than in any preceding year. There has not been since the Moses F. Carlron . • . . H. R. 2386 For eight months' service as democratic party came into power any greater proportionate reduc lieutenant, Michigan Volun teers. tion than there were in the preceding years, and t-hat reduction, as every man who can read knows, has been made mainly by clipping 215,361 00 off from the salary of men drawing less than $1,800. Sir, I like to hear the gentleman's voice, and I like to hear him RECAFITULATION. preach economy ; but it is not to control this House. Why did not the gentleman uplift his voice against the $75,000 appropriation to Here are fifty-two cases reported favorably by a democratic committe-e, of which number forty-four were reported favorably by the republican Committee on War day f He had not one word to say upon that subject. Claims of the preceding Congress; and of this number but seventeen cases passed [Here the hammer fell.] the Honse, one being a Senate bill for $28,650. . 'rhe CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. 'l'he amount involved in the fifty. two cases nported favorably is $215,361, and Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) When the rule under which all the amount involved in the sevent~en House cases passed is 74,453, or, including the Senate bill, is $103,103. these reductions were made was atta-cked, then I thought it was time The cases marked with a. • were reported favorably by the Committee on War I should speak. ClaiiUS of the last republican House ; those marked with a t have passed the Mr. CONGER. To what does that remft.rk apply mainly f [Laugh present Honse, and those marked with a t have either passed the Senate or are on ter.] the Senate Calendar with a favorable report. The CHAIRMAN. The time allowed by the order of the House for Mr. BLOUNT obtained the floor. debate on the pending paragraph and all amendments thereto has Mr. CONGER. I understood that the time allowed for debate wa-s expired. to be divided between the two sides. The question was taken upon the motion of Mr. .JACOBS to striko The CHAffiMAN. The gentleman from Michigan claims that there out the paragraph, and it was not agreed to ; upon a division-ayes was an understanding that the time should be divided equally be 53, noes 101. tween the two sides of the House. The Chair has not been follow The Clerk resumed the reading of the bill, and read the following: ing that rule but has been recognizing the members of the Committee That the subordinate officers of each branch of aa.id terriroria.l Legislatures shall on Appropriations in preference to other gentlemen, no matter to consist of one chief clerk, who shall receive a compensation of $6 per day ; one enrolling and engrossing clerk. at $5 per day; sergeant-at-arms and doorkeeper, at which party they belonged. The Chair did not understand that the $5 per day; one messenger and watchman, nt $4 per day each; and one chaplain, time was to be equally divided. at t;l.50 per day. Said sums shall be paid only during the sessions of sllid Legis Mr. BLOUNT. That was not the understanding, I think. latures· and no greater number of officers or charges per diem sh ll be paid or Mr. MILLS. I desire to inquire if the Committee on Appropria allowed by the United States to any Territory. And section 18til of the Itevised Statutes is hereby repealed, and this substituted in lieu thereof: Provided, That tions have any higher rights than other members to debate upon this for the performance of all official duties imposed by the territorinl Legi.sla.tnres, and floor 7 . not provided fol" in the organic net, the secretaries of the Territories respectively The CHAlliMAN. The Chair understands that the members of the shall be allowed such fees a.a may be fixed by the territorial Legislatures. And in committee having charge of a bill have a right to be recognized. no case shall the expenditure for public printing in any of the Territories exceed .Mr. CONGER. When the gentleman in charge of this bill asked the sum of $2,500 for nny one year. the House to limit debate I supposed he asked it with the understand :Mr. FORT. I move to amend in line 1034by striking out, "$1.50 17 ing that the time should be divided equally, otherwise it would not and inserting in lieu thereof "$4," as the compensation of the chap have been agreed to. lain. It occurs to() me that if the territoria~ Legislature needs a chap- 1878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE. ·-- 2989 lain at all, it needs one that can pray four dollars' worth a day. they are in favor of economy but draw a distinction between "econo [Laughter.] I think it is an invidious distinction to pay members of my" and "parsimony." the territorial Legislature $4 a day and to pay the chaplain only $1.50. Mr. WILLIAMS, of Wisconsin. '\Vill you allow me a question t It would have been far better to have provided no pay whatever for Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Certainly. the chaplain, than to give him only 1.50 a day in a country like that. Mr. WILLIAMS, of Wisconsin. When you had stated that you These territorial Legislatures will sit hut a very short time. In a believed $7,500 was justifiable as salary for yourself and other mem country where the ministry, I have no doubt, is not very well aus bers, why did you return to this House and move to cut do'\Yll that tained, if we provide for a chaplain at all, my judgment is that we salary to $4,500 T Did the people demand that T ought to give him enough money to pay his board; and he cannot do Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) I will answer the gentleman. I that with $1.50 a day. I will not detain the committee longer than did not propose to cut the salary down to $4,000. to ask that my amendment be adopted. Mr. WILLIAMS, of Wisconsin. Forty-five hundred dollars, I said. Mr. ATKINS. Icallforavote. [Criesof "Vote!" "Vote!"l Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) The Committee on Appropriations Mr. CALKINS. I move to amend the amendment so as to maKe it recommended $4,500 as the salary for members of Congress, and I $5 a da.y. took the ground that as the people had condemned an increase of sala Mr. FORT. The pay of a member of the Legislature is $4 a day. ries, it was not consistent in members of Congress to he cutting down Mr. CALKINS. I would not again claim the attention of this com the salaries of other officers unless they reduced their own in some mittee npon this bill but for the fact that I was the gentleman re thing like the same proportion. ferred to as having attacked the rule which I protested against at an Mr. WILLIAMS, of Wisconsin. Why do you not cut down your early period of this session of Congress and which I expect to pro salaries now t test against as long as I am a member of Congress. That is the ru1e Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) Wheneve:J;" the gentleman makes a. which gives the Committee on Appropriations powe~ to ingraft new proposition to cut down salaries generally, I will probably be found legislation on appropriation bills. with him to cut my own. As said by the honorable gentleman from Pennsylvania, the Speaker Mr. WILLIAMS, of Wisconsin. Why does not yonr Committee on of this Hou!*', we are all in favor of economy. There is not a mem Appropriations do it before you lectur~ us on economy T ber upon this floor if you put the question to him but what would Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) I say deliberately that I believe say that he was in favor of economy. Bnt economy as used by poli rather in cutting down the number of employes than in reducing sala ticians is a relative term. What one ma.n would call economy an ries. I believe to-day that if the law in .regard to the hours of labor other would call parsimony, and not economy at all. in the Departments is adhered to-seven hours a day during six Now1 without desiring to be offensive, I send up to the Clerk:~ desk monthB of the year and eight hours a day during the remainder-the and ask to have read a paragraph from the CoNGRESSIONAL REcoRD number of employes in the Departments can be reduced 20 per cent. which I have marked. [Here the hammer fell.] The Clerk read as follows : Mr. TOWNSHEND, of Illinois. I desire to ask the gentlman from Pennsylvania what party was in the control of Congress when the bill Mr. Ril'DALL. When I went into this conference on this bill I found that there were three overshadowing questions beyond all others which were in contro increasing salari~s was passed T versy between the two Houses. The first one that met us in committee was this Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) The republican party was in con question of salaries. Upon that question I have uttered no doubtinl sound' and trol, but the measure was supported by members on both sides; the have made no doubtful record in this Honse. I have declared to the country and to my constituents that I believed I have earned $7,500 a year since I have been in thls vote was not a party vote. While very many exhibited a desire to Congress, and that I could not li\'e here for less with my family with any sort of have the salary increased, a great number had not the nerve to vote decenay. I do not know how it may be with members from the rnral districts to .for it. · which my friend from Indiana. [Mr. Niblack) bas referred, but I could not go into The CHAIRMAN. Debate on the pending amendmeut is exhausted. a conference and suggest that there should be any difference in this respect between rural members and those who come from cities. Mr. FINLEY. I move to amend the amendment by striking out the last word. I make this motion for the purpose of saying a few · Mr. CALKINS. I have no doubt that the honorable gentleman words in reply to the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. FosTER] who has from Pennsylvania voted for the raising of the salar~es of members of stated here to-day that we have appropriated $8,000,000 of deficien Congress from $5,000 to $7,500 a year iu the interest of economy. I cies. Of the three bills brought into this House one was reported by have no doubt that he voted to make the increase extend back over the gentlemen from OhiQ himself. That was House bill No. 3740, and a year in the interest of economy. upon its face it was "A bill providing for deficiencies in the appro [Here the hammer fell.] priations for the service of the G"vemment for the fiscal year ending rl'he CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. June 30, 1!::!78, and for prior years, and for other purposes." I desire Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) The gentleman from Indiana [Mr. to say that the greater part of that bill was "for other purposes;" CALKINS] has not the merit of originality in cauBing to be read the and the gentleman from Tennessee, [Mr. WHITTBOR.."VE,] as the gen paragraph just read by the Clerk; it bas been read more than once tleman from Ohio well knows, moved to amend tbe title of the bill before in this House. I have uniformly had one reply to make in for the reason that the appropriations it contained were to a large respect to what has been read. I still think that my services were extent not deficiencies. The gentleman admitted upon this floor that worth $'7,500 a year. I advocated that proposition sincerely and hon nearly one-half of that bill was not for deficiencies. Yet he comes estly at that time. But when I went back to the people and they upon this floor to-day and says, as be has done heretofore, that the condemned it, as a faithful public servant I gave up my ·opinion in democratic party has passed deficiency bills to theamoun t of $8,000,000. that respect and adhered to their instructions. That is what I want As to the other bills which have been referred to, every hill reported the repuulican party to do. [Applause on the democratic side.] in this House from the Committee on Appropriations has contained, Mr. CALKINS. Will the gentleman allow me- to a large extent, appropriations other than deficiencies. When the Mr. RANDALL, (the Speaker.) That is what I want you to do, to gentleman rose lJere and proclaimed to the country that tlJis demo adhere to the instructions of the people in behalf of economy. Be cratic House had reported and passed "deficiency bills in the sum of as straightforward as I think I have tried to be in regard to my salary $8,000,000 and God knows how much more," he took good care not to vote, and give up as I did promptly my individual views iu that re say that the bill reported by himself bad for its purpose the making spect. of appropriations of nearly 2,000,000, more than one-half of whi geance against those in the South they wonld refuse to do justice to 1\Ir. DUNNELL. I do not admit at all that hate in any way char the men who served the country with equal valor in the North. They acterized the debate on this side of the House or on the part of any bo(ly. are willing to strike down the interests of the men of Pennsylvania, On the contrary, there was manifested a broad, generous liberality of Indiana, and other northern States who participated in this war on the part of the republican side of the Honse; a large spirit of for and who achieved glory for tbemsel ves and for their country. It is giveness. I am willin~ to-day to vote, as I did before, to restore men not sufficient that sectional hate should be carried to the point of re who··were in the rebellion to the pension list. I voted for the resto fusing to do justice to men who happen to live in the Sooth, but it ration of those who fought in the war of 1812; and when tb~ time must go to the point of refusing justice to northern men who stood comes-I think it baa not yet come-I am willing to pass the Mexi by their side on the battle-field contending for their country's right can bill, as I believe as much as any man in giving pensions to sol and promoting its honor and interest. 1 do not wish to hear the diers. words so often repeated that it is a reproach to the democratic party; Mr. RIDDLE. Did not the gentleman from Minnesota. and all the it has had honor enough to refuse to be sectional and honor enough republican members on that side, including the gentleman from Maine, to propose to do justice to all men in all localities. vote for that bill without a dissenting voice f · Another point referred to as evidence of democratic extravagance Mr. DUNNELL. I presume I did. is that a committee here reported a bill proposing to pay the claims Zl:lr. RIDDLE. The record so shows. of sont.bem mail contractors. Is that wrong T Is it an object of Mr. DUNNELL. I have said all that I desire to say. I rose simply reproach that the credit of the Government, that its just debts, that to correct the gentleman from Texas, [Mr. REAGAN.] . its plighted honor shall be preserved and protected' If that be so Mr. ATKINS. I call for a vote on the pending amendment. The we live in strange times. That bill only proposed to pay those who committee believe there is sufficient clerical force provided for these had done service in times of peace to the Government under con Territories. tracts. I do not know but that the gentleman from Maine himself 'l'he amendment was not agreed to. voted for it, as gentlemen on that side very generally voted for it. It Mr. JACOBS. I offer the following amendment: only proposed to pay men who bad not been paid for their service. In lines 1045and 1046strikeont "$2,500" and insert "t.f,OOO;" so that it will read: It proposed to pay those who had rendered service in time of peace And in no case shall the expenditnre for public printing in any of the Territo and who bad not been paid for it. It was under a contract with the ries exceed the sum of e4,000 for any one year. Government. The service was rendered and consideration was re The amount heretofore appropriated for public printing in the Ter ceived by the Government and pay was asked by those who now pay ritories has been about $4,000. Now, if Congress desires to make an their taxes to the Government and who then paid taxes to the Gov appropriation to pay for the expense of the printing of the Legisla ernment like other citizens. Is it a reproach to any party, is it a dis tive Assembly of a Territory, I ask any gentleman who is acquainted honor to the Government to comply with its contracts f with that business whether the sum of $2,500 is sufficient to defray [Here the hammer fell.] the expense of printing for a Legislature for forty days. Does not Mr. FENN. I move to strike out from the beginning of line 1028 every man know that the amount is not sufficient f That is all I t.o and including "per day each," in line 1033. The word& I move to desire to say. strike out are a;; follows: Mr. ATKINS. There is a great deal of elasticity in this matter of That the snborili.nate officers of each branch of said territorial Legislatures shall printing. The committee dnly considered this matter and think consist of one chief clerk, who shall receive a compensation of ~6 per day; one en $2,500 enough for any of the Territories. rolling and engrossing clerk, at 15 per day; sergeant-at-arms and doorkeeper, at i5 per day; one messenger and watchman, at f4 per day each. The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. DUNNELL. I move that the committee rise. The statute allows for a clerk, an assistant clerk, an engrossing and Mr. DURHAM. Let us go on to the end of this section before we enrolling clerk, a doorkeeper, a sergeant-at-arms, a watchman, and a rise. . porter. I propose to strike out the words in the bill and allow the law Mr. DUNNELL. Very well. I withdraw the motion. to stand as it now is. I will say that it is utterly impossible within the The Clerk resumed tho reading of the bill, and read to the close of forty days of the session for a Legislature to attend to its duties witb the paragraph making appropriations for the expenses of the Terri ~>nt this small force allowed, of a clerk, an assistant clerk, and enrollin~ tory of Arizona, line 1060. and engrossing clerk. There never has been a session in our Terrl Mr. ATKINS. I move that the committee rise. tory for years but the people out of their own money have been com The motion was agreed to. pelled to pay for additional clerical force in the last days of the session The committee accordingly rose; and the Speaker having resumed to properly finish up the work. Under the provisions of this act one the chair, Mr. EDEN reported that the committee had had under con officer will have to perform duties now performed by two. I am in sideration the special order, being the bill (H. R. No. 4104) making favor, therefore, of striking it out. appropriations for the legislative, execntive, and judicial expenses of A few words in addition in regard to the pittance which has here the Government for the fiscal year ending J nne 30, 1879, and for other tofore been allowed to the Territories. I have looked over the appro purposes, and had come to no resolution thereon. priations for the last few years, and I find that the averag~ for the last three years has been between twenty-five and twenty-slX thou ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED. sand dollars appropriated for territorial officers, such as governor, Mr. ELAM, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that secretary, judges, and members of the Legislature, and terri torial con they had examined and found truly enrolled bills and a joint resolu tingent expenses. Allow me to say that every Territory in this Union, tion ot the House of the following titles; when the Speaker signed during their territorial existence, on an average bas paid during the the same: same time on account of internal-revenue taxation $35,000 per annum A.n act (H. R. No. 1887) to extend the provisions of section 3297 of to the Government of the United States. the Revised Statutes to other institutions of learning ; [Here the hammer fell.] A.n act (H. R. No.1780) granting a pension to William S. Davis, late Mr. DUNNELL. I have not taken any time to-day in the debate, private in Company E, Thirty-first Illinois Infantry Volunteers; but I wish to reply in just a single word to the remarks of the gen A.n a~t (H. R. No. 3859) for the relief of Silas M. Norton, postmas tleman from Texas. I have for the gentleman from Texas a very high ter at Bristol, Connecticut; personal regard, and I believe he is aware of that fact. I think be A.n act (H. R. No. 1639) making an appropriation for pier-1i~bts has wholly mistaken the sentiment of the House upon the pending at the entrance of the jetties in the South Paas of the Mississippi Mexican pension bill. I deny that bate characterized the debate on River; and this side of the House. I am compelled, Mr. Chairman, to deny that A. joint resolution (H. R. No. 158) for the erection of a monument there was exhibited anything like ill-will or ill-feeling on the republic over the grave of Thomas J efterson. an side of the Honse toward the Mexican bilL The Honse bas voted Mr. RAINEY, from the Committee on Enrolled Bills, reported that to restore to the pension list soldiers of the war of 1812 who partici the committee had examined and found truly enrolled a bill of the pated in the rebellion. The opposition to the Mexican bill is not Senate of the following title ; when the Speaker signed the same : because it includes those from 'l'exas or from Alabama or from the An act (S. No. 15) to alter and amend the act entitled "An act to Southern States. It embraces as many in the Northern States as in aid in the construction of a railroad and telegraph line from the Mis the Southern States. I have risen simply to correct the statement of souri Ri vf'.r to the Padfic Ocean, and to secure to the Government the the gentleman from Texas, [Mr. REAGAN.] All opposition to that use of the same for postal, military, and other purposes," approved bill is not born of bate. There is not a feeling of hostility to that July 1, 1862, and also to alter and amend the act of Congress approved bill because it takes in men who were in the rebellion. Jnly 2, 1864, in amendment of said first-named act. Mr. FINLEY. Will the gentlemen yield to me for one question f Mr. WHITE, of Pennsylvania. I move that the Honse do now Mr. DUNNELL. Yes, sir. adjourn. Mr. FINLEY. Has not every gentleman on that side of the Honse who has spoken on the subject assigned that as his reason for oppos LAND LOCATED WITH MILITARY WARRANTS. ing the billY Pending the motion to adjourn; Mr. DUNNELL. No, sir. Mr. SAPP, by unanimous consent, from the Committee on the Pub 1\lr. J;'INLEY. Did not the gentleman from Vermont [Mr. JOYCE] lic Lands, reported back, accompanied by a report in writing, the assign that aa his chief reason f bill (H. R. No. 4239) to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to Mr. DUNNELL. I will admit that the gentleman from Vermont ascertain the amount of land located with military warrants in the took an extreme view. States described therein, and for other purpose~; and moved that the Mr. FINLEY. And did not the gentleman from Illinois [Mr.HAYKS] bill and report be recommitted, and that the report be printed. take the ~arne ground f The motion was agreed to, i878. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE. 299l. PAVEMENTS L~ THE DISTRICT. By Mr. CLAFLIN: The petition of 57 merchants and other citi The SPEAKER, by unanimous consent, laid before the House a let zens of .Massachusetts, against reviving the income tax-to the Com ter from the commissioners of the District of Columbia in response mittee of Ways and Means. to a resolution of the House, transmitting tables giving information By Mr. CLARK, of Iowa: Joint resolution of the Legislature of as required in the case of the bituminous and the wood-block pave Iowa, favoring the granting of arrears of pension to James A. Guth- ments, together with maps of all the bids and awards requested; rie-to the Committee on Invalid Pensions. · which waa referred to the Committee for the District of Columbia. By Mr. CUMMINGS: Joint resolutions of the Legislature of Iowa, of similar import-to the same committee. GEOLOGICAL SURVEYS. By Mr. FOSTER: Three petitions of citizens of Put-in Bay, North The SPEAKER also, by unanimous consent, laid before the House Bass, and Sandusky, Ohio, against the passage of the bill establish a letter from the Secretary of the Interior, in reply to a. resolution of ing a board of fish commissioners, &c.-to the Committee on Com- the House of the 8th instant calling for information in regard to the merce. · geological surveys conducted during the last ten years, transmitting By Mr. HEWITT, of New York: The petition of the Maritime .Asso the report of Major J. W. Powell on the subject; which was referred ciation of New York City, and other citizens, for the maintenance of to the Committee on Appropriations, and ordered t.o be printed. the Signal Service, and for an increase of the number of signal sta PUBLIC PRINTING. tions on the coast-to the Committee on Appropriations. By Mr. HU~TON: Papers relating to the war claim of Charles The SPEAKER also, by unanimous consent, laid before the Honse Kirby-to the Committee on War Claims. a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury relating to the public By Mr. KIDDER: The petition of George W. Kellogg .an