Vol. 740 Tuesday No. 53 23 October 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions European Defence Agency Small and Medium-sized Enterprises NHS: Accident and Emergency Services Taxation: International Companies Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill [HL] Third Reading Bovine Tuberculosis Statement Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill Second Reading and Remaining Stages Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules Motion of Regret

Grand Committee Official Secrets Act 1989 (Prescription) (Amendment) Order 2012 Considered in Grand Committee Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change Functions) (Scotland) Order 2012 (Consequential Modifications) Order 2012 Considered in Grand Committee Cyprus Question for Short Debate Housing: Park Homes Question for Short Debate

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2012, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 131 European Defence Agency[23 OCTOBER 2012] European Defence Agency 132

indeed EU Sub-Committee C recognised, that we benefit House of Lords from the pooling and sharing within the agency and that the agency does valuable work in niche areas such Tuesday, 23 October 2012. as counter-IED, medical support, helicopters and cyber warfare? Further, if there were not a positive response, 2.30 pm there would be an almighty row with our French partners. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, there are no rifts and there is no hidden agenda. We said that we would European Defence Agency review our membership after two years. We will then Question provide an Explanatory Memorandum and notify both Houses in the normal way as soon as possible. I am 2.37 pm aware of the benefits that the EDA has delivered, but Asked By Lord Anderson of Swansea we need to review the full benefits and improvement goals that it has set for itself. In an age of financial To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has austerity, we must ensure that every pound of taxpayers’ been the outcome of the review of the status of money counts for defence. United Kingdom membership of the European Defence Agency announced in October 2010. Lord Jopling: My Lords, did the Minister see the recent report of the same sub-committee which the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry noble Lord just referred to? The committee’s report of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): My Lords, first, I said that given that the EDA, am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in “is deemed to be well directed under its current management, it offering sincere condolences to the families and friends should be given the proper tools and commitment to do a proper of Lieutenant Andrew Chesterman of 3rd Battalion The job. The UK and France should take the lead”. Rifles, Lance Corporal Matthew Smith of 26 Engineer Will the Government take that opinion into account Regiment, Guardsman Jamie Shadrake of 1st Battalion in coming to a decision? Grenadier Guards, Guardsman Karl Whittle of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, Sergeant Lee Davidson Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I have read the of The Light Dragoons, Lance Corporal Duane Groom report of Sub-Committee C and, as I said in my reply, of 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, Sergeant Gareth we will take this into account in the review. Thursby of 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Regiment, Private Thomas Wroe of 3rd Battalion The Yorkshire Lord Liddle: My Lords, does the Minister accept Regiment, Sergeant Jonathan Kups of the Royal Electrical that, in the age of financial austerity that he referred and Mechanical Engineers, Captain James Townley of to, there is a very strong case for common defence the Corps of Royal Engineers and Captain Carl Manley procurement if it can be done economically within of the Royal Marines who died on operations in Europe, and that potentially the agency has a huge Afghanistan recently. role to play in making that work much better than it My thoughts are also with the wounded, and I pay has in the past? tribute to the courage and fortitude with which they face their rehabilitation. Once again, we are reminded Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I agree with that. If of the immense danger that our Armed Forces operate we can do it economically, this makes a lot of sense. in to uphold our safety and security. Their families and the whole country should rightly be proud of their heroic service and we shall always remember Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: My Lords, first I wish them. to identify these Benches with the sad condolences expressed by the Minister. Does my noble friend agree Turning to the Question, Ministers are still considering that some of the successful examples of European the case for UK membership of the European Defence Defence Agency initiatives are both the air-to-air refuelling Agency with the aim of announcing the outcome of and the helicopter training exercises which have been the review before the end of the autumn. As part of completed this week? Could he detail any other recent that review, we are looking at the activities of the achievements of the EDA? agency’s four main directorates of capability, research and technology, industry and markets and armaments to assess the benefits received by our membership, Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, the EDA has seen including on our international relationships and what significant success in a number of capability areas; for improvements there have been in the agency since 2010. example, as my noble friend said, helicopter training which has directly increased the number of pilots available for operations in Afghanistan. By enhancing Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, we all join the capabilities of smaller member states, we receive the Minister in those condolences and tributes to our an indirect benefit through better burden-sharing in brave soldiers. operations. I understand that 114 crews—that is 1,300 The two-year period of review has now passed with personnel—have been trained, of which 63 have been no outcome. Does that mean there is some rift within deployed to Afghanistan. My noble friend mentioned the coalition? Will the Government now recognise, as the air-to-air refuelling initiative. As part of pooling 133 European Defence Agency[LORDS] Small and Medium-sized Enterprises 134

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] Small and Medium-sized Enterprises and sharing, the EDA is taking a lead in facilitating Question European capability development in this area. This has not yet delivered results but the initiative is at an early stage. This issue was highlighted in operations 2.46 pm over Libya where the US provided the vast majority of Asked By Lord Cotter air-to-air refuelling capability. If I may, I will write to my noble friend on the other achievements—European To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action military air-worthiness, the requirements initiative, industry they are taking to address the issue of late payments and markets, and the capability development plan. to small and medium-sized enterprises.

Lord Soley: Are the Government looking at sharing Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, central government with the French the facilities recently opened at RAF policy is to pay undisputed invoices within five days Waddington for the control of UAVs? and to pass 30-day payment terms down supply chains. Moreover, the Crown representative team in the Cabinet Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I went up to RAF Office is encouraging prime contractors to pay more Waddington a couple of weeks ago and saw for myself quickly than the 30-day commitment on a voluntary what the noble Lord has talked about. I cannot answer basis. We have tasked departments across Whitehall to from the Dispatch Box whether the French will be manage their contracts to ensure that prime contractors involved in that. As I have said previously from the pay their subcontractors within 30 days. Dispatch Box on many occasions, I welcome as much co-operation with the French as possible. We are working Lord Cotter: I thank the Minister for his Answer. with them in a lot of areas. Noble Lords may have Will he and his officials look at the important reports seen in the Daily Telegraph today the photograph of and surveys carried out by the Federation of Small our Royal Marines training off Corsica with the French Businesses and the British Chambers of Commerce marines. and note their recommendations? There is a lot of very good information in there. I am glad that the Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, would not Government have improved their record on payment, European defence co-operation have been enhanced if but it is still not satisfactory that local councils and the merger between BAES and EADS had gone ahead? other departments are not paying as promptly as they Was it not a tragedy that this deal was bombed by should. I am encouraged by the Minister saying that Chancellor Merkel? government departments are going to look at their suppliers. I ask him to ensure that they sign up to the prompt payment code. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that there would have been some benefits from the two companies joining up. However, having Lord Wallace of Saltaire: MyLords,Ihaveitinmy said that, I think that BAE will continue to thrive on notes that the Local Government Association, in the its own. It has some wonderful products and Ministers form of no less an important person than the noble in the Ministry of Defence do their very best to help Baroness, Lady Eaton, has agreed that local authorities BAE sell them. will be encouraged similarly to follow best practice in this regard. The Cabinet Office has among other measures Lord Williams of Elvel: My Lords, are the Government introduced a “mystery shopper” service through which seriously considering withdrawal from the EDA? Is small contractors who are dissatisfied with the service that one of the options under review? they are getting, either from a department or from a prime contractor, can anonymously feed this information through to the Cabinet Office. Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, it is an option; we are doing a review. As I said earlier, we will report back to the House as soon as possible. Baroness Sharples: What is the average time taken by ministries to settle their bills? Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, if the Minister and the Government had to choose between a row Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I suspect that the answer with our French partners and the lasting disengagement is that because there are so many bills that have to be of the United States of America, which would they paid it would take a great deal of time, effort and cost choose? When the Minister writes to the noble Lord, to acquire that information. Lord Palmer, listing all the glorious achievements of this agency, will he commit to putting a copy of the Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, does the letter in your Lordships’ Library? noble Lord take assurance from the fact that, certainly in the health service, we have penalties for not paying Lord Astor of Hever: My Lords, to answer the noble small and medium-sized businesses first, before we do Lord’s first question, I try to be as diplomatic as I can anything else, no matter where we are in the budget? I in relations with both the United States and the French, think that that ought to apply perhaps in other places and I would certainly not want to get involved in any as well. I had intended to save my question for the next disagreement. debate but I just could not resist saying that. 135 Small and Medium-sized Enterprises[23 OCTOBER 2012] NHS: Accident and Emergency Services 136

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Thank you. It is an aspiration Lord Wallace of Saltaire: We are well aware of this of this Government to increase the proportion of problem. We are talking about a culture change within government contracts which go to small and medium-sized Whitehall. We are conscious that it is often easier enterprises. When we entered government, the proportion when drawing up a large contract to give it to a prime of government contracts going to SMEs was 6.5%. contractor who will then subcontract, rather than Our aspiration is to reach 25% by 2015. The latest having to go through the more onerous processes of figures we have are that we are almost at 10.5%, so we distributing it around the country. That is part of the have some way to go but are going in the right direction. culture that we are trying to change.

Lord Borrie: The Minister has confined his answers Baroness Brinton: My Lords, the Minister’s earlier so far to government or governmental bodies which response on the problem with large companies was owe debts to small and medium-sized firms. What illuminating. However, if we are going to rely on about simply the failure of large firms to pay small investigating journalists to uncover such cases, would firms the money they owe them? So far, it is left to the it not be better for the Government to consider forcing initiative of the SMEs. Since there is a significant Bill large companies to publish how many days they take going through Parliament at the moment dealing with to pay people in their annual reports? financial services, I wonder whether one might get more results if the public officials of those bodies that Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I dare say that are to take over from the Financial Services Authority that is a question which will come up if and when we under the new Financial Services Bill had a responsibility next move on to a company law reform Bill. to ensure that debts were paid. Lord Mitchell: My Lords, small companies in particular Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the Government depend on prompt cash flow—indeed, it is their lifeblood. are not yet convinced that we need to take legislative However, it is still true that many organisations in action, but we are thoroughly in favour of all pressure different areas, but particularly those in the public possible to encourage large corporations to pay their sector, are notorious for paying late. Despite the assurances small contractors as fast as possible. There is indeed a that the Minister has given, I ask the Government to new booklet produced by the Association of Chartered issue a firm directive to all organisations in the public Certified Accountants, Experian, the Forum of Private sector stating that payments to SMEs are to be made Business and the Institute of Credit Management which within a short time after the receipt of an invoice. is a guide on how to ensure prompt payment and has been produced in co-operation with the Government. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the Government I must say that a number of newspapers, including have done that and are introducing a number of practices in particular the Telegraph, have been very helpful in to ensure that that is done. The mystery shopper and exposing the tendency of some large corporations other efforts are always feeding back to ensure that deliberately to delay payment to their subcontractors. where it is not yet done, steps are taken to improve We all know that transparency and reputational damage matters. are things which multinational companies are well aware of, supermarkets included. NHS: Accident and Emergency Services Lord Trefgarne: My Lords, if my noble friend wishes Question to increase the number of small and medium-sized enterprises which tender for and secure government 2.55 pm business, will he have a look at the complexity of government tendering processes which tend to put off Asked by Baroness Gardner of Parkes smaller companies from competing in those competitions? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in relation to proposals to restructure NHS services in Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we are also north-west London, the Department of Health has well aware of that. My right honourable friend Francis entered into dialogue with Transport for London Maude and others have been looking in particular at regarding traffic levels and their impact upon speed the complexity of the pre-qualification questionnaires. of access to accident and emergency services. We are doing our best to get rid of those for all contracts below £100,000 per year and to simplify the Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I beg leave pre-qualification questionnaires for all others. to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interest as a local resident. Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, following the last question, I ask the Minister also to look at the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department contracts offered by the Department for Work and of Health (Earl Howe): My Lords, the reconfiguration Pensions. In terms of getting people back to work, of front-line health services is a matter for the local these contracts are going to very few, very large NHS, and any decisions regarding changes to services contractors, and as a result charities and voluntary will be taken locally. I understand that the local NHS organisations which in the past have done this work has worked closely with Transport for London and are now being pushed out of the bidding process. also with the London Ambulance Service in developing 137 NHS: Accident and Emergency Services[LORDS] NHS: Accident and Emergency Services 138

[EARL HOWE] by producing some sophisticated analysis not only of its proposals for the future shape of health services ambulance transport times but of bus and car journey across north-west London under the Shaping a Healthier times to make sure that nobody loses out in any Future programme. reconfiguration.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I thank the Minister Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, in the noble Earl’s for that Answer. My Question could really apply to answer to my noble friend Lord Harris, I did not hear anywhere in the country. The general principle is how an answer to any of his questions about numbers, who long it takes to get patients to hospital, particularly in makes the decision and who is accountable. Would it emergencies, when it is a matter of life and death in be possible to hear that? some cases. In London, there is only one air ambulance; I understand that in Paris, there are four and in Earl Howe: My Lords, I apologise. The Question on Sydney there are six. We cannot rely on one air ambulance the Order Paper relates to north-west London, so I do to deal with the problem. Will the Minister consider not have pan-London figures in front of me. The the general principle of a national view of traffic in answer to the question is as I gave it in my initial relation to access for ambulances? response: those decisions are subject to local determination. That is right, because it is only local Earl Howe: My noble friend makes some important commissioners and providers who can assess the situation points. As a general point, it is important to say that on the ground properly. As the noble Baroness will be each ambulance service should plan to provide appropriate aware, there is a system for escalating decisions—ultimately resources to meet local demand, because demand varies to the Secretary of State, if necessary, who takes according to where you are in the country. Planning advice from the Independent Reconfiguration Panel in assumptions in meeting that demand should take into the most extreme cases—but normally, we hope and account the likelihood of severe traffic congestion. expect those decisions to be resolved on the ground in Plans of that kind may well include resources in the local area. addition to traditional ambulance provision, for example, using rapid response vehicles and motorbikes as well Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, does the as utilising staff such as community paramedics or Minister agree that many patients have difficulties emergency care practitioners. accessing their GPs and out-of-hours services? Does he realise that the only resource might be the A and E Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, how many department? In a case of meningitis, that could be a accident and emergency departments in London does death sentence if they cannot get that access. the Minister expect to close in the next four years? If he does not know the answer, can he say who is Earl Howe: My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. responsible for that and how they are accountable for That is exactly why the Government are planning to making a strategic judgment across London about the roll out the 111 service, which will run alongside the level of accident and emergency services? 999 service for emergency calls. But where the situation falls short of an emergency, the 111 service will instantly Earl Howe: The premise behind the noble Lord’s direct the patient to exactly the right service, without a question is that it is automatically worse to have fewer call back being necessary. I am pleased to say that that A and E departments in an area. I beg to disagree with programme is on track and should be rolled out next that premise. In serious or complex cases, the noble year. Lord will know that patients need to access exactly the right care, so it is often better and safer for them to Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I declare travel further to see specialists in major centres than to an interest in Barnet and Chase Farm, which is currently go to a local hospital. Although it may be closer, it being restructured. Does the Minister agree that, with may not have the right specialists, the right equipment any restructuring of services in the health service, or sufficient expertise in treating patients with their the public are very concerned? A lot of effort is being condition. The prime example of that has been stroke made by the trust to assure people, but one of the care in London, where 32 centres were reduced to, things that keeps coming back—certainly for Barnet I think, eight and there has been a dramatic reduction and Enfield—is that the bus services do not always in the number of deaths following admission. work in the way in which the noble Earl has suggested, and that Transport for London is not always co-operative. Baroness Jolly: My Lords, does the noble Earl agree Very often it is, but sometimes it is not; we are having that wherever there are improvements to patient care a great deal of difficulty reorganising bus services in that involve restructuring not only of services but cases where Transport for London will just not hear premises, the impact assessment in the consultation of it. document should include general transport and ambulance access? Earl Howe: My Lords, in north London and Barnet in particular, Transport for London has diverted the Earl Howe: I agree with my noble friend. The planning 307 bus route into the grounds of Barnet Hospital, assumptions made in north-west London, which is the thus improving the link from Enfield. Transport for subject of the Question, are a good example of that, London has also installed new CCTV cameras in the where Transport for London is co-operating actively underpass at North Middlesex University Hospital, in 139 NHS: Accident and Emergency Services[23 OCTOBER 2012] Taxation: International Companies 140 order to enhance its safety. There was a proposal to Lord Barnett: Does the Minister accept that the improve the local underpass at Silver Street station, Prime Minister’s, and indeed the Chancellor’s, definition and that was carried through. I am concerned to of aggressive tax avoidance needs clarifying? In any hear the noble Baroness’s perception, because all the case, does he accept that all tax avoidance schemes are briefing I have had indicates that Transport for London always one step ahead of the Treasury and the Inland is very constructive in these situations and will often Revenue? Would it not be sensible and simple—all change bus routes in response to changes in service past Governments have always refused to do this—to configuration. have simple legislation to say that any tax avoidance scheme has to be approved by HM Treasury? Would that not solve the problem? Taxation: International Companies Question Lord Sassoon: The noble Lord, Lord Barnett, always wants me to be clear and simple, so the answer is no to his first two questions. On the third question, he 3.02 pm has an underlying, quite proper, concern, which is the Asked By Lord Harries of Pentregarth why the work that Graham Aaronson has done for the Government on a general anti-avoidance rule, the so-called To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps GAAR, is a very important part of ongoing work. they are taking to ensure that international companies pay a fair proportion of United Kingdom tax. Lord Campbell-Savours: What are the Government going to do about Starbucks and its transfer pricing The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord arrangements? Sassoon): My Lords, the vast majority of taxpayers pay the right tax at the right time. However, the Lord Sassoon: My Lords, the noble Lord does not Government are alert to the risk that some companies expect me for one moment to start commenting on the may try to structure their tax affairs so that profits tax affairs of any individual taxpayer. As a general from UK-based economic activity are not taxed here. response, it may interest the House that the 800 or so The UK has specific tax rules to combat tax avoidance largest companies that come under the large business by international companies and fully supports the service of HMRC to be assessed pay £136 billion in Organisation for Economic Co-operation and corporation tax, PAYE and VAT each year. Almost Development initiative on base erosion and profit 50% of that tax comes from foreign-owned businesses, shifting, which has been endorsed by the G20. so I do not think we should have in mind that foreign- owned companies as a group are somehow doing something that we have to be vigilant about. We must Lord Harries of Pentregarth: My Lords, I am very keep this in proportion. glad to hear that the Government are alert to the situation of international companies, but would the Minister agree that, when they are being assessed for Lord Avebury: My Lords, do the OECD rules apply tax purposes, they should be required to reveal every to internet-based companies, such as Amazon, and country in which they are operating and the tax they when will they come into effect? pay in each country, with full financial details of their own company and link-companies? In addition to Lord Sassoon: My Lords, a series of measures has insisting on this for UK purposes, would the Government been agreed internationally through the OECD over be prepared to work for an international agreement so many years. The fiscal affairs committee of the OECD that all transnational companies were required to give is having a new look at this, and this work was endorsed a fully transparent country-by-country report of any by the G20 at the Los Cabos meeting in June, to get country in which they operated? those rules into a fit state for the 21st century. They are the rules that govern the relationships between countries and the base on which all companies should operate Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I certainly agree with their tax regimes, but they need to be modernised. the underlying premise behind the noble and right reverend Lord’s question, which is that there is still a lot more work to be done in this area. The international Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, in responding tax architecture was developed in an age of fixed to an earlier question, the Minister said that there was factories and plant and machinery, with much less much work to be done in this area. Who is to do it? interconnectedness. Now we live in a connected, corporate What is the point of the Government cutting Inland world in which internet commerce and so on make it Revenue staff when there is so much work to be done? much more complex. That is why the OECD is again Staff concerned with revenue collection can collect looking fundamentally at whether countries have the 30 or 100 times the annual salary they receive. right weapons, whether it is tax treaties, under which the exchange of information would come; transfer Lord Sassoon: I am very grateful, as I often am, for pricing; aggressive tax planning; or harmful tax practices. the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I certainly agree that tax information is important to because it enables me to tell the House, as I have done that but, as far as the authorities are concerned, that before, that £900 million has been reinvested in the really comes under the tax treaties and the work that compliance activities of HMRC precisely because we the OECD will be looking at. need to do more work to attack avoidance, evasion 141 Taxation: International Companies[LORDS] Bovine Tuberculosis 142

[LORD SASSOON] Bovine Tuberculosis and criminal attacks on the tax system. Compliance Statement revenue has more than doubled in six years so that by 2014-15 an additional £7 billion per annum will be 3.11 pm coming in. The noble Lord’s concerns are quite right, and this Government are very actively on the case. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, the Minister Mauley): My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall did not answer my question on transfer pricing, which now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my is the mechanism used to avoid paying corporation right honourable friend the Secretary of State for tax. Why will he not answer my question? Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The Statement is as follows. Lord Sassoon: Because, forgive me, there are other “Bovine tuberculosis is the most pressing animal Peers wanting to get in. I completely agree with the health problem in the United Kingdom. The importance noble Lord that transfer pricing is one of the most of the epidemic for our cattle farmers, their families serious areas that need to be looked at, which is and their communities cannot be overemphasised. precisely why each one of those 800 large companies This was once a disease isolated to small pockets of has a dedicated tax professional looking at this area. the country. It has now spread extensively through the The focus on transfer pricing has meant that in the west of England and Wales. The number of new cases past four years £4 billion has been recovered precisely has doubled every nine years. Last year, TB led to the by going after transfer pricing schemes. On average, slaughter of 26,000 cattle in England at a cost of £1 billion a year is coming in through effective action. nearly £100 million. In the past 10 years bovine TB has cost the taxpayer £500 million. It is estimated that this will rise to £1 billion over the next decade if the Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill [HL] disease is left unchecked. Third Reading The task of managing bovine TB and bringing it under control is difficult and complex. The Government 3.09 pm are committed to using all the tools at their disposal Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I have it in and to continuing to develop new ones as a package command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint of measures to tackle the disease. In high-risk areas, the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of herds are tested annually and any cattle that test the purport of the Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill, positive are slaughtered. Restrictions on cattle movements has consented to place her interests, so far as they are have been further strengthened to reduce the chance of affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for disease spreading from cattle to cattle. Only last week the purposes of the Bill. we announced plans for a new surveillance testing regime and stricter cattle movement controls. We also continue to look at ways to improve the testing of Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, on behalf of cattle for TB. my noble friend Lord McNally, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time. Research in this country over the past 15 years has demonstrated that cattle and badgers can transmit the disease to each other. Culling badgers can lead to a Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: My Lords, before reduction of the disease in cattle if it is carried out we wave goodbye to the Bill, and in congratulating the over a large enough area and for a sufficient length of Government on its provisions, perhaps I may ask my time. That is why we believe that, based on the best noble friend to ensure that the Ministry of Justice available evidence, culling badgers to control TB can understands that this was only a very small step and make a significant contribution. It is crucial that we that there are many other aspects of the Trusts (Capital get this right. The National Farmers’ Union has taken and Income) Bill as they affect charities which could the lead on behalf of the farming industry to plan and usefully and properly be followed through. organise the pilot culls. It has been working tirelessly over the past few months, signing up farmers and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My noble friend is landowners in the pilot areas and ensuring that contractors correct. The Bill makes minor modifications and there are properly trained. I have been immensely impressed is obvious scope to look at this issue further. by the effort, commitment and determination that have been demonstrated by farmers in the two pilot Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I add my tribute areas. I am also most grateful to the police in the two to the work of the Law Commission in relation to the areas for their support. Bill. It is a short but useful Bill. In Clause 1 we say The exceptionally bad weather this summer has put farewell to a number of old friends familiar to generations a number of pressures on our farmers and caused of law students, if to nobody else. Clause 4 is important significant problems. Protracted legal proceedings and since it gives greater flexibility to the trustees of charitable the request of the police to delay the start until after trusts. All in all, the Law Commission is to be the Olympics and Paralympics have also meant that congratulated on producing a valuable reform of the we have moved beyond the optimal time for delivering law and I look forward to its next instalment. an effective cull. We should have begun in the summer. In addition to these problems, the most recent fieldwork Bill passed and sent to the Commons. has revealed that badger numbers in the two areas are 143 Bovine Tuberculosis[23 OCTOBER 2012] Bovine Tuberculosis 144 significantly higher than previously thought. This only out the scale of the animal health problem, and the highlights the scale of the problem we are dealing cost to farmers and to taxpayers of slaughtering infected with. cattle. This is an acute problem for farmers and I know Evidence suggests that at least 70% of the badgers from talking to them in the West Country over many in the areas must be removed. This is based on the years what a toll it is taking on them personally and results of the randomised badger culling trial so that financially. It is therefore also right that the Statement we can be confident that culling will reduce TB in concludes with the need to work with farmers. But cattle. Despite a greatly increased effort over the past as the president of the NFU says in his letter to the few days and weeks, the farmers delivering this policy Secretary of State, have concluded that they cannot be confident that it “all decisions must be based on the science”. will be possible to remove enough badgers based on Why then no mention of working with the scientists? these higher numbers and considering the lateness of the season. It would be wrong to go ahead if those on I am pleased to see the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, in the ground cannot be confident of removing at least his place. He is one of the leading scientific authorities 70% of the populations. on this issue. What meetings has the new Secretary of State had with the noble Lord and his colleagues? Did Today I have received a letter from the president of the Minister read the comments of the noble Lord in the NFU on behalf of the companies co-ordinating last week’s debate on scientific advisors? He said, the culls, explaining why they do not feel they can go “it is still the case that the Government, perhaps too often, prefer ahead this year and requesting that they be postponed policy-based evidence rather than evidence-based policy … The until next summer. In these circumstances, it is the fact is that the overwhelming majority of scientific experts have right thing to do and, as they are the people who have concluded that the policy of killing badgers to control TB in to deliver this policy on the ground and work within cattle will have only a small beneficial effect, if any. It is essentially the science, I respect their decision. I have placed a a waste of effort and money, and a distraction from the business copy of the letter in the Libraries of both Houses. of getting on top of a serious animal health problem that can have devastating effects on the livelihoods of farmers”.—[Official By starting the pilots next summer we can build on Report, 17/10/12; col. GC514.] the work that has already been done and ensure that The truth is that this is yet another humiliating the cull will conform to the scientific criteria and moment for the Government and for Defra because evidence base. I know that this will be very disappointing they put prejudice and ideology before science and for many, particularly those farmers in the two pilot evidence. Can the Minister confirm that this is more areas, but I fully support the decision of the NFU to of an NHS Bill type of pause, rather than another delay the start of culling operations. Government U-turn? It is certainly another in a chain I must emphasise that there is no change to the of weekly incompetent humiliations: plebgate; the west Government’s policy. We remain absolutely committed coast main line fiasco, when they also got the numbers to it, but we must ensure that we work with the NFU wrong; the energy policy on the hoof last week; the to get the delivery right. We also remain committed to great train snobbery; and now this from Defra. our wider TB eradication programme and to continuing to strengthen it, so that we can move towards our goal From Defra we have had the abandoned forestry of a TB-free England. Vaccination is another tool and sell off, chaos over circus animals, a U-turn on shooting one that we would all like to be able to deploy more buzzards to protect game birds and now a pause on widely. Unfortunately, we are not yet there in terms of shooting badgers. No wonder the noble Lord, Lord its development or practicality. If we had a viable and Tebbit, said this weekend in the Observer that the legal cattle vaccine, we would be using it. It will, Government, however, be some years before this is the case and “seems unable to manage its affairs competently”. neither we nor the industry can afford to wait that He described it as a, long. It is for this reason that we must look at all the “dog of a coalition government”. options. I do not think the noble Lord likes dogs. I suspect The Government are determined to tackle bovine he would like the country to put it out of its misery TB by all the means available to us. Now, in the next and have this “dog of a coalition” put down. However, few months, we will ensure that the pilot culls can be beyond the endemic incompetence in Defra and the implemented effectively, in the best possible conditions, Government there are serious specific questions to with the right resources. Having looked at all the answer. As my colleague Mary Creagh MP said in the evidence over many years, I am utterly convinced that other place today: badger control is the right thing to do, and indeed the higher than expected badger numbers only serve to “Labour has warned the Government for two years that the badger cull was bad for farmers, bad for taxpayers and bad for underline the need for urgent action. I remain fully wildlife”. committed to working with the farming industry to ensure that the pilot culls can be delivered effectively, The Secretary of State is right not to proceed safely and humanely next summer”. because the cull this year could not deliver the 70% mortality rate needed for the possible positive effect on bovine TB—up to 16% over nine years. His decision 3.18 pm is based on there not being enough time to cull that Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I am grateful many badgers in the limited time available, particularly to the Minister for repeating the Statement and for given the growing number of badgers in the pilot advance sight of it this morning. We welcome this areas. However, the numbers and the limited time were statement and it is right that it should start by setting predictable and demonstrate the incompetence in Defra 145 Bovine Tuberculosis[LORDS] Bovine Tuberculosis 146

[LORD KNIGHT OF WEYMOUTH] estimate of what can be done on vaccination over nine that this announcement was inevitable. His statement years with the same unity of purpose? The emerging blames the weather, the police and the Olympics for a DIVA test is an encouraging development to allow a limited time window. diseased animal to be differentiated from a vaccinated Was it not the Home Secretary who ruled out animal. Surely this now makes it possible seriously to policing the cull this summer not the police? Was not engage with the EU in lifting the ban on exports from the limited window therefore predictable and decided vaccinated animals. The vaccine itself is 50% to 60% by Ministers? Is it not the case that in July last year effective. We need more efficacy but it appears that Natural England gave Defra badger population figures good progress is being made in finding a scientific that projected from the randomised badger-culling solution. Surely it is right to focus on this rather than trial that the numbers of badgers in pilot areas was on what the 30 eminent animal disease experts writing 3,300 per 350 square kilometres. This is broadly the in the Observer 10 days ago described as a “costly same as the current estimate of 3,000 per 300 square distraction”. kilometres, so the larger number of badgers was My party is clear that bovine TB is a blight on dairy predictable too. farming and causes untold misery to dairy farmers. Why did the Secretary of State in the other place We take it very seriously and we all want a solution. today say that it was only in September this year that We know that growing numbers of diseased badgers Natural England determined deficiencies in the numbers are passing the disease to cattle and costing the taxpayer of badgers to be culled? Is it just to cover Defra’s a fortune, but, unfortunately, the logic of then culling incompetence or is it that those projections last year them does not follow because the science tells us that were ignored because it was inconvenient evidence not that is most likely to spread the disease unless such a policy-based evidence? Can the Minister tell us whether scale of geography and intensity is used that it is the estimates of badger numbers in the planned pilot clearly nigh on impossible to then deliver the cull. We cull areas were reviewed by the independent expert must be led by the science and the science leads us to panel overseeing the pilots? I have heard not. If so, vaccination with interim efforts on biosecurity. That is that is shameful. what we want. That is what the nation wants. I hope that, after reflecting on this shambles today, the Secretary What is the department going to do during this of State will abandon his dogmatic view and get it pause before doing the cull next year? Will it need right by listening to both farmers and scientists. to secure more money? The Secretary of State said today in the other place that the Government will compensate the police forces in Avon and Somerset 3.27 pm and Gloucestershire for their costs in preparing for Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the abandoned cull. If it is a more intensive cull of the for his response to the Statement. I start by reiterating larger numbers of badgers, will he need more than the that bovine TB is the most pressing animal health current projection of £500,000 per cull area per year? problem facing our cattle farmers. No one wants to Will there be any compensation for the two companies kill badgers but we absolutely have to bear down on engaged to do the shooting? I gather £850,000 was to this terrible disease. be spent on surveying badgers; £248,000 on post mortems; and £713,000 on checking the humaneness of the cull. What has been announced today is a postponement Will those contractors be compensated? until next summer of the pilots that were due to start this autumn. There is no change of government policy. Beyond the finance questions there are other areas We and the farming industry remain committed to of work between now and when the cull starts next taking forward this evidence-based policy. We are summer. Will Ministers meet representatives of the totally committed to tackling bovine TB through a tourism industry in Somerset and Gloucestershire? range of measures, including a controlled cull of badgers. The notion of marksmen across the countryside that I The cull in the two pilot areas will go ahead next know well shooting badgers at night has clear risks. summer when we are completely satisfied that all the Those risks are heightened because the location of arrangements are in place. shoots will be kept secret to frustrate protesters, but if the location of shooting is secret how will visitors in The leading experts whom Defra brought together the summer months be warned to keep away? last year agreed that the evidence shows that culling done in the right way and carried out over a sufficient How will Ministers work with farmers to maximise area and length of time in a co-ordinated and efficient the effectiveness of the welcome announcement last way can reduce the spread of the disease to cattle with week on changes to the testing regime and cattle benefits remaining for many years. The policy is firmly movement restrictions? These sorts of biosecurity measures based on evidence from the randomised badger culling are a key component in controlling this dreadful disease. trial. Using the results of this trial, culling over an Can more be done with government support to improve area of 150 square kilometres could be expected to biosecurity? lead to an average 16% reduction in TB incidence in Finally, there is the core question of vaccination. the local area. This figure was agreed by an independent The possible benefits of a cull are marginal. Sir John panel of scientists at a meeting with Professor Bob Beddington, the Chief Scientific Adviser, has said that Watson, Defra’s Chief Scientific Adviser, on 4 April it will, at best, result in a 12% to 16% reduction in the last year. We are clearly not saying that this is the disease after nine years. The Statement pays tribute to whole answer but it is a very important part of the the tireless work of farmers and contractors in preparing answer alongside testing and surveillance, movement for the cull and funding it. What is the Government’s restrictions and the removal and slaughter of affected 147 Bovine Tuberculosis[23 OCTOBER 2012] Bovine Tuberculosis 148 animals. We wanted to be absolutely sure that we had Baroness Northover: I remind noble Lords that the most robust data available to ensure that the right ministerial Statements are made for the information of logistics were in place for an effective cull. The population the House. Although brief comments and questions estimates show the problem of badgers spreading bovine from all quarters are allowed, Statements should not TB to be even worse than expected. The right decision be the occasion for an immediate debate. I am acutely has been taken, based on the available evidence. aware that many noble Lords wish to get in. It would therefore be courteous if noble Lords could be as brief Natural England’s figures were estimated on RBCT as possible, to enable their noble colleagues to get in data and, in validating the estimates provided by the as well. applicants, some gaps were found that raised concerns. Due to the importance of this data for the effectiveness of the policy, it was responsible, in taking a science-based Lord Krebs: My Lords, as has been said, bovine TB approach, to check these numbers through further is a serious problem, and it deserves serious science to fieldwork. This further fieldwork has led to updated underpin policy. I do not want to take up too much estimates of the badger population that are higher time, but I hope that your Lordships will forgive me than originally expected. The discovery that there are as an individual who has been involved in this over far more badgers than previously thought shows the the past 15 years and, as has been said, instigated the problem could be much bigger than we feared. All of randomised badger culling trial and took part in the the preparations for the pilot culls were geared up for review of the evidence with Sir Bob Watson last year. a smaller number of badgers, so it is absolutely right It is worth briefly repeating the facts: the long-term, that the NFU looks again at what resources it needs to large-scale culling of badgers is estimated to reduce make sure we get it right. the incidence of TB in cattle by 16% after nine years. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked about policing. In other words, 84% of the problem is still there. To It was agreed with the Home Office that the cull reflect on what that means, this is not a reduction in should not proceed before the Olympics. The noble absolute terms but actually a 16% reduction from the Lord asked about the costs of the culling operations trend increase. So after nine years there is still more and whether they would be met by the participating TB around than there was at the beginning; it is just farmers. The costs that fall to Government are those that there is 16% less than there would have been to do with ensuring that the pilots meet their purpose. without a cull. The number is not the 30% that the It is right to pilot the policy and confirm our assumptions NFU quoted; that is misleading—a dishonest filleting about the effectiveness, safety and humaneness of of the data. The other thing that the experts conclude controlled shooting. As regards costs more generally, is that culling makes the situation worse at the beginning the Secretary of State has said that he will have a so it will take a long time to emerge into this Nirvana comprehensive breakdown of the money spent so far of a 16% reduction, and 84% of the problem is still there. prepared and laid before Parliament. The noble Lord That is just the background. I turn to questions that specifically asked about policing costs. These will depend I hope the Minister will answer. Last Friday we were on the extent of protester activity and it is right that told by the Minister of State for Food and Farming the Government should recompense the police for that between 500 and 800 badgers would be culled in additional costs. each of the two areas. The number, thanks to rapid badger reproduction over the weekend, is now 5,530 over The noble Lord asked about vaccination, which is the two areas—a fourfold increase. I am impressed. an important issue. Work to develop an oral badger What this underlines is that if the policy is to cull at vaccine and a cattle vaccine is continuing and is a high least 70% of the badgers, we have to know what priority. Defra has been investing significantly in the starting number is. This variation from just over developing bovine TB vaccines for both badgers and 1,000 to more than 5,000 in the space of a few days cattle for a long time. We have a licensed, injectable underlines how difficult it is for us to have confidence vaccine that can and is used on badgers. The problem that the Government will be able to instruct the farmers with it is, however, two-fold. First, it is very expensive to cull 70% if they do not know the starting numbers. to catch all the badgers. Secondly, it has to be done So my first question to the Minister is: how will he every year. So it is a very expensive process and is not assure us that these numbers are accurate? really practicable on a wide scale. Since 1994, Defra If we ask why the NFU has backed out, it is has invested more than £43 million in badger and because it was due to pay those who were going to cattle vaccination and associated diagnostics and expects shoot the badgers on a per-badger basis. The NFU to spend another £15.5 million over four years. Even calculated it on the basis of shooting 1,300 badgers. if these vaccinations were available, they are not a Suddenly it is told, “It’s 5,500 badgers”. The farmers magic bullet and additional measures would still be thought it was worth doing—but not that much. They necessary. have done their own cost-benefit calculation and say The Government fully support the NFU’s decision that it is not worth the candle. So my second question to postpone the culls as the responsible thing to do to to the Minister is: in next year’s cull, who is going to ensure the pilots are carried out effectively. It would be pay? Are the farmers going to stump up on a per-badger irresponsible to rush ahead and risk making the problem basis to shoot 5,500 badgers or are we, the taxpayer, worse if it is not carried out properly. This disease led going to pay? to the slaughter of 26,000 cattle in England last year Finally and briefly, we have a pause and time to and cost nearly £100 million. Without further action it rethink. I urge the Minister to gather together scientific would cost the taxpayer an estimated £1 billion over experts and rethink the Government’s strategy altogether, the next decade. starting from square one. 149 Bovine Tuberculosis[LORDS] Bovine Tuberculosis 150

Lord De Mauley: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior: My Lords, in view for whom I have a huge amount of respect. I am of the great success in controlling rabies in foxes in grateful to him in particular for confirming the 16% western Europe with an oral vaccine, has much thought figure to which I referred in my answer to the noble been given to the production of an oral vaccine for TB Lord, Lord Knight. On the question of whether culling in badgers? I realise, of course, that the organisms are is not a huge part of the answer, it is a very significant entirely different; one is a virus and one is a bacterium. part of the answer but I said earlier that it is not the However, surely the same process of trying to select an whole answer. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, organism that is protected before it gets into the gut will at least accept that. and immunises the badger is worthy of investigation. He asked about the numbers. I explained to the Can the Minister give some indication of some of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that previous estimates of work that is going on, if any, on the production of an the number of badgers to be removed from the pilot oral vaccine similar to the one developed for fox areas were based on the RBCT. We have recently rabies? carried out field surveys to look at the badger populations in the areas where the pilots are taking place. However, Lord De Mauley: I am grateful to my noble friend what is important in answering the question of the because this is an important subject into which noble Lord, Lord Krebs, is that we have commissioned considerable work is going on. The evidence that he a national badger survey in England and Wales to has referred to will of course be taken into account. quantify any changes since the previous survey. Progress on the development of an effective oral badger The noble Lord asked about the cost and, in particular, vaccine relies, of course, on scientific breakthroughs whether the farmers will continue to bear the cost. Yes in this field, and it is uncertain in outcome and timing. indeed, they will; that is entirely the plan. The bearing Compared to an injectable vaccine, an oral vaccine is of the cost will be done in exactly the way that has technically more difficult to formulate, as my noble been planned. friend alluded to, and it requires bait, which encourages I should say to noble Lords, on the issue of the the uptake of the vaccine by badgers and minimises evidence and the science, that, following the March 2012 the potential of other species to eat it. Developing an visit to the UK of the European Commission’s bovine oral vaccine against TB in badgers is proving more tuberculosis sub-group of the task force for monitoring difficult than originally hoped, which means that I animal disease eradication, it stated: cannot say with certainty when one might be available “It is however of utmost importance that there is a political for use in the field. consensus and commitment to long-term strategies to combat TB in badgers as well as in cattle ... There is no scientific evidence to demonstrate that badger vaccination will reduce the incidence of Lord Winston: My Lords, will the Minister inform TB in cattle. However there is considerable evidence to support us whether the Government intend to cull the seven or the removal of badgers in order to improve the TB status of both eight other common species which also affect tuberculosis badgers and cattle”. and spread it among cattle? So the European Commission is pushing us and we have to deal with TB in badgers. Lord De Mauley: That is an interesting question. Although bovine TB is present in other wildlife, such Baroness Parminter: My Lords, I will be brief. Our as deer, badgers are the main species responsible for priority on these Benches was always that the pilots transmitting the disease to cattle because of their were safe and rigorous in testing how effective and specific ecology. Evidence from the RBCT demonstrates indeed humane the culling of badgers could be. However, conclusively that badgers contribute significantly to given that the NFU does not have the resources to bovine TB in cattle. While deer in Britain are generally deliver this, we welcome the fact that the cull is being considered to be a sentinel or spillover host of infection postponed. Will the Minister confirm that the Government in cattle, rather than a source of the disease in cattle, will use this pause, before any evidence-based pilots current evidence suggests that TB infection from deer proceed, to seek approval to use in the field the cattle is not a significant disease risk to cattle. vaccine and the diagnostic test, which has recently been approved, and in particular seek to use the EU animal health directive, which is upcoming? Lord Plumb: My Lords, as a farmer, my question is based on some history. I will be very brief. In 1944 we Secondly, the Secretary of State confirmed today in eradicated TB on my farm. In 1964, as a junior officer another place that all options will be looked at in in the NFU, I had the privilege of announcing that we order to curtail this disease. Will the Minister confirm had totally eradicated bovine TB from this country. that those alternatives will not include looking again Since then, of course, history has shown us a different at the issue of gassing, which was condemned in a picture. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, posed a large review by Lord Zuckerman, a Member of this House, number of questions, and I noted all of them. Those in the 1980s? questions were posed more than 10 years ago, and we have gone through that period of time with few decisions Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I thank my noble being taken. To say, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, friend for her supportive words. We have had discussions said, that farmers are dishonest is an insult to the with the EU that essentially involve persuading the farming community and I cannot accept it. That is not EU to accept the DIVA test. They have told us to get the reason. All the farmers concerned, particularly international validation and we are determined to those who have been held up for 12 years, have been do so. unable to sell one beast off their farms over that time. 151 Bovine Tuberculosis[23 OCTOBER 2012] Bovine Tuberculosis 152

They do not see this problem as scientists see it; they which is another tool in the box that we must find, and see it as men who are concerned with the welfare of I assure noble Lords that we are continuing to work animals and they do not want to see their herds on that. suffering, as they are doing and have done throughout this period. Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, the Minister My question is exactly the same as that raised by may be aware that my former constituency was one the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby. Surely we have to move of the areas that were being considered for this cull. towards vaccination. However, if the current vaccine For very many years, including 13 years of a Labour is effective for only one year, that is a very expensive Government, I prayed that positive progress would be mechanism for doing the job. Surely to goodness we made by the Government in tackling this problem. are in an age when an oral vaccine can be found to I join the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, in saying that I cope with this situation. It can be put in either the bitterly regret the very party-political way in which the water or the food so that the affected animals are noble Lord, Lord Knight, intervened in this matter. removed. Perhaps that would be a better way of dealing His Government did nothing effective and left it as a with the matter than the ways that have hitherto been problem to be tackled now. Some have had to live with thought of. the personal challenges of the issue—as my noble friend knows, there are suicides, despair and family Lord De Mauley: I can only say to my noble friend breakups, so it is not just the financial consequences that we are pursuing vaccine options as hard as we can but the destruction of people’s whole lives that have and as a high priority.We have been investing significantly followed from this. It is also not just dairy herds, in developing TB vaccines for both badgers and cattle which I think the noble Lord referred to, but anybody for a long time. I have mentioned a licensed injectable with cattle. Certainly in the West Country they have vaccine that can be and is being used on badgers but, faced appalling problems. This should be pursued on as I have explained, it is extremely expensive and needs an all-party, bipartisan basis, as my noble friend said, to be repeated annually. As my noble friend says, we not by trying to score points and accusing people of need an oral vaccine, which we are still searching for. dishonesty in filleting the statistics or anything else. We will continue that search and expect to spend We are trying to get a cohesive approach to this another £15.5 million over four years. challenge because if we do not, in many parts of the country, it will destroy the whole cattle industry as we see it. Lord Patel: My Lords, the Minister referred to other species that are affected with a similar strain of tuberculosis and specifically mentioned wild deer. Are Lord De Mauley: I absolutely agree with my noble not mice, particularly field mice, and rats also affected friend about the effect on farmers and their families. by the same strain and do they not come into closer Perhaps I may do something unusual and come to the contact with cattle? defence of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, who began by acknowledging how very horrible this disease is. If I may, I would like to pour a little soothing balm on Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the point about mice, the political argument. rats and indeed deer is that there is no restriction on culling them. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, perhaps I may defend the previous Government, who undertook Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, I agree a long series of randomised trials and worked with entirely with the Minister, as indeed would most people scientists to try to find a scientific base for future in the country, when he says that this is the most action. Does the Minister accept that there is much pressing animal health issue facing the country. In the relief in the Forest of Dean this afternoon as a light of that, I welcome the announcement today consequence of this Statement? The majority of people because I think that it exposes how shambolic the in the forest, including many farmers, did not want a Government’s proposals have been in trying to tackle badger cull that was not based on scientific evidence, this real problem. As scientists said last week, the was not economic and would not provide the necessary policy was little more than a costly diversion and we solution to the devastating effect of bovine TB on will end up with more cases of TB in four or nine herds and farmers but that would decimate the badger years’ time than we have at the moment. The four-year population. I should add that the police of Gloucestershire pilots have now, with the stroke of a pen today, become are also much relieved to have their leave restored. five-year pilots. I believe that we ought to follow the Can the Minister reassure me that the Government recommendations of the European Union representatives will now use the pause to pursue a firmly scientifically- and, although it will not be easy, continue to seek based solution which will also have a sound economic political consensus so that we can move on to vaccination basis? Will he also agree to update this House regularly and increase the amount of money that we are spending so that we can try to find a solution on which there can on research in this field, especially in the form of cattle be some political consensus? We all want to be involved vaccination. in pursuing that.

Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the area in which I Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I have said that we are disagree with the noble Lord is clearly that of pursuing pursuing all options and I do not think that I can say the cull, which I have said we are planning to do. The much more than that. However, I am grateful to the area in which I agree with him is that of vaccination, noble Baroness for her offer of help. 153 Bovine Tuberculosis[LORDS] Infrastructure Bill 154

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, the Minister Lord Newby: I hope that my speech will answer the has rightly referred to scientific evidence, as has the noble Lord’s question adequately. noble Lord, Lord Krebs. It is clear that the scientific Firms will have access to the communications and evidence that the Minister and his colleagues are getting transport networks that they need, wherever in the is different from that which a significant proportion of UK they happen to be, enabling Britain to compete on the scientific community is getting. What reassurance the world stage. can he give us that an independent group of scientists will be brought together to examine this process Our national infrastructure plan published last transparently and that a regular report will be made to November sets out an ambitious but credible roadmap this House, as the noble Baroness said, rather than to deliver on that vision—a pipeline of upcoming waiting for another crisis until such a report is made? investment worth £257 billion in crucial large-scale projects, of which more than two-thirds will typically be financed and delivered by the private sector. Lord De Mauley: My Lords, my noble friend will know that a great number of professionals, scientists A number of key infrastructure projects close to and experts are already involved in this process. There starting construction are being delayed because of the is also, indeed, an independent panel which will monitor difficulties they face in securing the finance and investment the results of the cull, and we are extremely grateful required, and the housing market continues to suffer for all the advice that we get. from an undersupply of homes to meet the UK’s demographic needs. Even under favourable credit conditions, raising the amount of private finance required Lord Christopher: My Lords, there have been probably to deliver these projects and to meet our overall inescapable pressures on farmers to manage cattle as infrastructure investment goals would be a challenge. they do. Will the Government also look, among the However, the disruption caused by the instability of options, at any evidence suggesting that the resistance international financial markets and the adverse effect of our present herds has been lowered not least as a that this is having on long-term debt provision have result of inbreeding? For example, how many bulls are not abated. Proactive, decisive action by the Government responsible today for our white cattle herds of Holsteins is therefore needed now. The Bill will allow us to take and Friesians? that action and will bring forward the investment needed. Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I have heard no evidence The principal aim of the Bill is to make investment that inbreeding contributes to the incidence of TB. in major infrastructure and housing schemes possible. The Government have agreed in principle, subject to strict approvals criteria, to make financial support Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill available to infrastructure projects using the strength Second Reading and Remaining Stages and credibility of our balance sheet to support the investment that we need. 3.54 pm Through this Bill, guarantees provided by the Moved By Lord Newby Government will help to ensure that where projects are struggling to access private finance due to adverse That the Bill be read a second time. credit conditions, these projects can now go ahead. It authorises the Treasury and, where appropriate, other Lord Newby: My Lords, I am delighted to be able to Secretaries of State to incur expenditure necessary for open the proceedings on the Infrastructure (Financial providing financial assistance. Assistance) Bill. The purpose of the Bill is to help The Bill will allow the Government to support accelerate significant investment in major infrastructure crucial investment in key areas of economic and public projects and it will increase the number of homes service infrastructure: utilities, such as energy and being built and occupied. telecommunications; transport, such as railways and Before I set out the main features of this legislation roads; infrastructure to provide public services, such in more detail, I briefly remind your Lordships’ House as hospitals and schools; and housing development to of the Government’s commitment to delivering a deliver much-needed homes. sustainable, private sector-led recovery. This will be The Treasury estimates that up to £40 billion of possible only by maintaining our credible fiscal stance investment in infrastructure and an additional £10 billion and so keeping interest rates low. We want to see a in housing investment could be accelerated under recovery that is balanced across industrial sectors and the guarantee schemes using the powers in the Bill. across geographic regions. To achieve this ambition— Importantly, we will put in place strict guidelines and eligibility criteria for the schemes to protect the taxpayer Lord Barnett: Is this putting into law the loan and ensure that the Exchequer does not take on guarantee scheme? unacceptable fiscal risks. Any proposal that receives a guarantee from Earl Attlee: My Lords, long experience in this House Infrastructure UK will as a minimum have satisfied tells me that the best way of handling these events is to the following requirements. It must be nationally and/or allow my noble friend the Minister to lay out his stall economically significant; financially credible; good value and then noble Lords can ask questions at the appropriate for money for the taxpayer; not solely dependent on a point. guarantee to proceed; and ready to start construction 155 Infrastructure Bill[23 OCTOBER 2012] Infrastructure Bill 156 within 12 months. Any proposal that receives a housing convention known as “Baldwin cover”, dating back to guarantee from the Department for Communities and 1932, that Governments should not rest significant Local Government will, as a minimum, need to deliver and regular expenditure under common-law powers an agreed number of new homes; undergo an investment on the sole authority of general supply legislation. appraisal and full due diligence and be subject to That is the noble Lord’s point. It is significant and ongoing monitoring requirements; meet a risk capital regular guarantees, not expenditure, that could have a contribution at the outset; and provide recourse to the very long period of operation. secured housing assets. Questions have also been raised about what kinds Since the projects that we expect to back will be of project can potentially be covered by this legislation. structured to minimise the potential losses to the In particular, the Institution of Civil Engineers has Exchequer, there will be minimal impact on public asked about what constitutes a nationally significant sector net borrowing as a result. The exception is project—a phrase that does not appear in the Bill but under the extreme circumstances that a guarantee is did appear in last year’s national infrastructure plan. I called upon or other forms of financial assistance are should make it clear that projects that could potentially provided, but we expect such circumstances to be rare. benefit from this Bill are not limited to the nationally Furthermore, the Government will levy a commercial significant projects identified in the national infrastructure charge. This will cover the services received by plan. In addition to the areas covered by the plan, infrastructure providers and beneficiaries of the private we will be prepared, for example, to look at waste rented sector housing guarantee. It will ensure that management and university projects that are economically companies pay a fair price for the benefits that they viable and simply want for finance. As to the scale of receive, and that taxpayers receive a fair price for any project that can potentially benefit, again there is risk being taken. It will also ensure that schemes do considerable flexibility. A project does not necessarily not fall foul of EU state aid rules. have to be valued at several hundred millions of pounds The Bill raises a number of questions. The first and to be considered. most fundamental is: will it work? Is there any evidence The Bill is one part of the Government’s overall that the guarantee being offered will really facilitate approach to ensuring that the United Kingdom invests the speeding up of infrastructure projects? There is in the infrastructure that it needs for the future. I look already substantial evidence that it will. Infrastructure forward to our debate today and I commend the Bill UK has received some 60 enquiries from projects that to the House. I beg to move. might qualify, and more are expected. There is also strong interest across the housing sector. Negotiations on these projects are ongoing so it would be inappropriate 4.04 pm at this point to run down a list but, as an example of the kind of thing that is likely to benefit, we have Lord Adonis: I am very grateful to the Deputy Chief indicated that the Crossrail rolling stock and depot Whip for explaining the Bill and I am delighted to be services procurement meets the eligibility criteria. debating with the noble Lord for whom I have the highest regard. I am also very glad that Paul Deighton A number of people have asked why the Bill is is to become Minister for Infrastructure. It was specifically necessary at all. Can the Government not already do to shadow him and his vitally important work that I this kind of thing without explicit legislative cover? have returned to the Front Bench and I much look The Treasury and Secretaries of State already have forward to engaging with him. I understand that Paul common-law powers to make guarantees, make loans Deighton will not be joining the Government until and give other financial assistance. In addition, some January so this is an unusual, if not unprecedented, Secretaries of State have express statutory powers to case of the shadow materialising three months before support infrastructure. However, the Treasury does the substance, which sort of sums up the Government’s not have the authority to incur expenditure in relation infrastructure problem: all shadow, no substance. to guarantees on the scale that I have outlined. Moreover, there is a longstanding convention— If I can continue the metaphor, this Bill is one of the most shadowy I have ever seen. Its four clauses simply give the Government power to spend up to Lord Peston: The noble Lord was kind enough £50 billion on infrastructure in very broad areas—water, when I asked him why we needed a Bill to point me to electricity, gas, telecoms, sewerage, railways, roads, health, an answer given in the other place, which I have to tell education, courts, prisons and housing—with little him I found completely incomprehensible. I am still indication in the Bill or in the debates in the House of stuck. Will he say in terms that we need a Bill because Commons beyond a single a announcement about of the scale of the operations? Is he willing to place on Crossrail trains of what real infrastructure projects it record that that is the point and it is the size of the is intended to assist and when. operations which requires legislation? I find that very The Minister did not enlighten us much further, odd but at least I would like to hear him say it. saying that, “it would be inappropriate … to run down a list”, Lord Newby: It is partly the scale of the operations which is a phrase redolent of Sir Humphrey at his very and the length of the guarantees, and also because the best. Our consideration of this Bill is a mere shadow current rules have gaps in them, as I understand them, since it is a money Bill which we cannot amend or even or there are certain parts of the whole infrastructure debate amendments to. However, before this phantom world, as it were, that are not covered by the existing passes into law, I should like to set out some issues for rules. To finish my sentence, there is a longstanding debate and would be grateful for the Minister’s response. 157 Infrastructure Bill[LORDS] Infrastructure Bill 158

[LORD ADONIS] words, this Government have given up. If I may say so, In 2009, expenditure on infrastructure was at the that is one of the most brazen abdications of responsibility highest real-terms level for about two decades. Three that I have ever heard from a Government. years later, the Construction Products Association is It is the same story on HS2—another project that I warning that infrastructure is in free fall. It is expected know intimately—where dither and delay since 2010 to decline by 13% this year compared to last. The CPA have put the project back by at least two years and is projecting even bigger falls in key sectors—for example, may again delay the key decisions until the next a 40% drop in road construction this year—not least Government. It is a similar story too in London, because of the coalition’s wholesale cancellation of where one of Mayor Johnson’s first cuts in 2008 cancelled road schemes in 2010. Will the Minister confirm these the desperately needed Thames Gateway Bridge which figures and tell us whether, in retrospect, it was wise would have provided another Thames crossing in east to cancel essential schemes of national importance London, for which both planning and funding were such as the dualling of the A14 east-west route from already secured. Instead, all we have is a new cable car Felixstowe port to the Midlands and the dualling of offering a tiny fraction of that capacity and—you the A21, a key route from London to the Kent and could not make this up—the beginning of a planning Sussex coast? process which might ultimately lead to a new bridge In the case of the A14, this project has now resurfaced not far from the one which was cancelled for short-term as a proposed toll road. My officials told me told me political reasons. It is the same story now with the that tolling of the A14 was unworkable when I was extension of the Northern Line to Battersea, a key Secretary of State, but the coalition clearly has a development area. In June, a Treasury source told the higher source of wisdom. So, could the Minister tell Evening Standard: me, first, whether the Government are considering a “The entire weight of the Government is being thrown behind state financial guarantee for the privately financed the extension of the Northern Line”. A14 project, as it will surely need one; secondly, what Now, Transport for London can only say: tolling scheme is proposed, because I can find no “Subject to funding being in place and permission from the reference anywhere to a scheme that appears even Secretary of State for Transport, the new stations could be open vaguely workable; and thirdly, when the tolled and by 2019”. dualled A14 will be open? If the work had gone ahead So much for transport, energy and broadband. Let as a conventional road scheme in 2010, the opening us look at education. One of the Government’s first would be taking place in stages from now. The only acts in 2010 was to slash to ribbons the school building reference that I can find on the web is to a tolled programme. If that had not happened, hundreds of scheme that will open from 2018. schools would be being built or refurbished as we Equally concerning is the delay and prevarication speak, pumping billions into the construction industry over energy policy, which is holding up investment in and providing modern school premises which will now new infrastructure, including the £210 million Siemens have to be built at far greater expense hereafter. It is investment in a wind turbine factory in Hull and huge the same story too with housing. The number of investment in new wind farms and renewable energy. housebuilding starts fell by almost a quarter between There are big delays, too, in rolling out superfast March last year and March this year, with starts by broadband and 4G. When I was on the Norfolk coast housing associations, in the quasi-public sector, down earlier this month, visiting Statoil’s new Sheringham by a similar proportion. Shoal offshore wind farm, a particular concern was I have always taken it as a golden rule that the state the lack of fast broadband and the poor quality of should not preach to the private sector until it has got mobile phone reception. Britain’s lack of 4G mobile its own act together. Well, let us be clear: we are now phone provision is pushing us behind the United confronting a situation where the state itself has slashed States, Germany, Sweden and parts of Asia. As for or delayed infrastructure spending across the board, broadband, the Country Land and Business Association and failed to agree planning decisions for key privately recently described the superfast broadband situation funded infrastructure projects, while deploring delays as lamentable saying: in the private sector. That is not leadership, but “It is becoming clear that the Government’s strategy will not complacency masquerading as concern. meet the target date of 2015”. It is not just on investment that the state is failing to The shadowy case for this Bill is that it will help lead. The Government talk constantly about reducing unlock the capacity of the private sector to invest in planning delays, something which is within the power infrastructure, but it is important to understand that a of the state to determine. Yet I note that last year only critical obstacle to infrastructure investment is the 60% of major planning applications were processed Government’s own failure to lead and deliver. within the target date of 13 weeks, a big reduction on I mentioned road schemes a moment ago. It is the the 68% determined within 13 weeks in 2010. same story with airport capacity in the south-east, Turning to the national infrastructure plan, which where the Prime Minister has just appointed a review the noble Lord said was “ambitious but credible”, I which is going to take three years. It is now three-and- note that in the latest reissue, 63 projects have disappeared a-half years since the previous Government announced without explanation from the 2011 plan—I assume their decision on airport capacity in the south-east. In that they were ambitious but not credible. Of the the House of Commons, the Economic Secretary to 357 projects in both the original plan and the updated the Treasury said that any decision on airport capacity version published this April, almost two-thirds were in would be taken by the next Government. In other pre-procurement stages. Only 38 had proceeded to 159 Infrastructure Bill[23 OCTOBER 2012] Infrastructure Bill 160 procurement or construction. More than 300 projects I fully recognise that it may take longer than two in the national infrastructure plan therefore are still hours —perhaps two years or even two centuries—to mere shadows, and 63 have vanished into thin air. come up with a viable scheme for tolling the existing Honing down to the most important projects, the A14. British Chamber of Commerce identified 13 critical Let me end on a broader note. When the Bill was infrastructure projects before the last election. There debated in the Commons, the Economic Secretary to has been little or no progress on eight of those 13. the Treasury said that it would, Will the Bill help with any of this? It entirely “facilitate headline schemes for infrastructure and housing investment, depends what the proposed assistance is going to be accelerate and bring forward investment in major UK infrastructure used for. The Bill simply says that the Government projects and increased the number of homes being built and may provide any kind of financial assistance up to the occupied”.—[Official Report, Commons, 15/10/12; col 121.] absolute limit of £50 billion. The only further limitation Those are fine words, but what we need now is action. suggested by Ministers is that projects should be of At the moment, we are simply chasing shadows. “national significance”, a definition which looks to be in the eye of the beholder. Will the Minister give us 4.16 pm just a few examples, beyond Crossrail trains, of projects which will now go ahead through the proposed guarantees Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am glad to the private sector, as the CBI has said that we need that infrastructure is defined in Clause 1(2), as it is a urgent action from Ministers to identify further projects? word that has such a wide meaning and without it I Will the Minister also give us an indication of when would not feel entitled to speak on the Bill, because the first project financed under this guarantee scheme I do not have expertise on the financial aspects of it. will actually go ahead? When the Crossrail trains Guarantees are of such importance and relevance at announcement was made, the Financial Times said: present, when we need jobs to be created. I believe that the guarantees under the Bill will enable works presently “The government appears to have relaxed one of its key criteria for guarantees—neither the super sewer”— delayed to be carried out so that they will be of benefit both to the nation and to individuals. My comments another possible project for this scheme, funding for will be directed towards subsection (2)(e), housing, which is apparently stuck in the Treasury— which will also automatically involve subsections (2)(a), “nor the Crossrail rolling stock schemes will be ‘shovel ready’ because of the linkage of services, and (2)(b), roads within 12 months”. and transport. Will the Minister tell us about the relationship For a good many years, until I reached their retiring between the Bill and the Growth and Infrastructure age, I was a vice president of the National House Bill, which was published last week? The Bill was Building Council. I hold it in high regard and it supposedly going to unlock a string of major provides an excellent service for small builders and infrastructure projects. Now, before it is even enacted, individuals. When I had to rebuild my own home in another appears whose Explanatory Notes state that the 1980s—sadly, it had split asunder due to subsidence—I its purpose is, valued the security provided by its guarantee, which “promoting growth and facilitating provision of infrastructure”. I believe covered the first 10 years after construction. There are to be yet more changes to the planning Later, I learnt of the wide support that it gives to system intended—and have we not heard this before?— the home building industry and I know that it plays a “to enable applicants to avoid delays in local decision-making”, very necessary part in the provision of homes which while respecting localism. The next Bill also includes are again so badly needed. Awards were given annually changes to the infrastructure financing regime, which to various categories, such as small builder of the year, overlaps directly with this Bill: for example, removing rather like a mini-Oscar ceremony. I hope that the so-called unviable Section 106 agreements for affordable NHBS will, among others, encourage builders to produce housing. commonhold developments. It is time that we got rid of the antiquated leasehold system for residential property, The CLG blurb accompanying the Growth and which exists only in England and Hawaii, I believe. Infrastructure Bill states that those further changes could: In the Housing Reform Act 2002, we introduced commonhold, but it has hardly been used at all. I “Unlock investment decisions across a range of technologies, believe that the main reason is that developers prefer bringing thousands of new jobs and billions of pounds of investment”. to make more money by selling the freehold to one Those are almost precisely the same words used to justify body and the leasehold to another. That means that the present Bill and a host of other initiatives over the owner-occupiers, particularly in blocks of flats, have past two years, each of which has been succeeded by little or no control over the work carried out on their another intended to achieve precisely the same objectives properties or the costs of them. I am sure that your before it has even been enacted, let alone implemented. Lordships are aware that I have spoken about leasehold They are also the justification for the regional growth reform many times. I still have my flat in Australia, fund, only a tiny fraction of whose allocated funds where our commonhold is called strata title. Under have yet been released to businesses, as catalogued in that system, all flat owners are members of the body the highly critical report from the Public Accounts corporate and all decisions about the block are made Committee. collectively. I am convinced that once a reputable I have asked a lot of questions, and I entirely company such as Persimmon—and lots of others—builds understand if the Minister writes to me about those to and sells one commonhold block, it will see how which he cannot get answers by the time he replies. popular and effective the system is; once it takes off, 161 Infrastructure Bill[LORDS] Infrastructure Bill 162

[BARONESS GARDNER OF PARKES] welcome this hope of producing not only more jobs, there will be no turning back. Getting the advantages but also more homes. All parties must surely support known to the public will prove the value to home the principle of this Bill. To oppose it, which in owners. fairness she said she would not, would be to kill off In our 2002 housing Act on this matter, there is hope for people who would definitely benefit if this provision for leaseholders in existing blocks to apply finance made the difference between action and no to convert to commonhold, but the provisions of the action on infrastructure. Act make it almost impossible, as 100% of leaseholders I can better understand Nick Raynsford’s remarks must agree. Apart from the fact that more often than about “deep scepticism” and his wondering whether not one owner is not contactable, it is open to abuse by the Bill will deliver all that is expected of it. We have any superior landlord not wanting to change. They need heard similar comments from the noble Lord, Lord to buy out only one person’s vote to secure retention Adonis. We all hope that it will deliver, but no one can of the property for the superior landlord. Would it not know these things for certain. Without this Bill, I provide a wonderful example if the Government were believe there is no hope for this necessary progress. It to support commonhold as the choice of tenure for is a money Bill and I understand the significance the buildings to be converted to residences on the of that, but I do not mind speaking on it. It is not former Olympic site? This would provide a real legacy something that we have any right to do anything for the Games. about. We must go ahead with this financial assistance scheme; we must look to the Government to ensure Returning to the wider issues of housing, we are all that the money is put to good use to provide homes, aware of the desperate need for more housing. Finance systems, schemes and developments to the benefit of has been in short supply and mortgages have been those needing work and homes. almost unobtainable. Small builders cannot employ staff or begin construction unless they are sure of I found many of the comments made by the noble financial backing. From the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, very interesting, such as his comments Lord, Lord Adonis, I thought that the flexibility in on toll structures. I have just come back from Australia, this scheme should clearly mean that small builders and I was very interested to see how well the toll roads can be supported in the same way as anyone else; it work out there. Whether they are appropriate for here, does not have to apply only to huge construction I do not know. That is not my field of expertise. The firms. Many of these small builders have huge skills noble Lord said that things have not progressed but and capabilities. perhaps this Bill will help them to progress. We have to look at this positively and go ahead with this action by A lot of noble Lords will remember the late Lord the Government. The important thing is that the Taylor. He told me that his career began when he built money has to be spent wisely on guarantees. No one one house—I think in Liverpool. Selling that house seems to be able to get a guarantee now from a bank provided him with the funds to build two houses and for pretty well anything, particularly for major projects he went on to head Taylor Woodrow, which was a but also for small projects. My appeal today is that we great achievement for him and a wonderful example try to help small builders to get going so that homes for anyone looking for a future in the industry. We can be built immediately for those who desperately should not overlook that; we should support small need them and so that builders can provide employment. builders who are ready and able. I like the expression I support the Bill. “shovel ready” used by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and builders are shovel ready and often desperate for 4.25 pm work at the moment. If they cannot employ staff, they cannot get going. Lord Desai: My Lords, as I came into the Chamber this afternoon, I was told that I had missed the U-turn There is another aspect of housing on which I must on the badger cull, but I am glad that I am here to see comment. At present, there is a great argument about the U-turn on the Treasury’s economic policy. Unlike green belt and non-green belt land. I made this point the badger cull, it is as if only some badgers are not during the passage of the Localism Bill, but consider going to be culled, but others will be. It is a very minor it worth repeating in the context of this debate and all regression from their policy by the Government. I recent debates on the subject. There are small pockets guess it will do no harm to spend £50 billion doing of land in so-called green belt land that are sited in the something, although I still do not quite understand midst of fairly built-up areas. These infill sites already why it is necessary. have all the infrastructure in place and homes could be There are two problems. The Government’s economic built on them without the delay of waiting for services, case—I thought I was one of the few people who such as power, roads, and so on. This would mean that understood it—was that they would withdraw from builders could get working much more quickly.Naturally, spending money because we do not have any money, whoever owns the adjoining house will not want new which is fair enough, and the private sector would take neighbours, but nimbyism is not to be encouraged. over investment. The private sector is flush with money. Providing the new build is in harmony with the neighbours, There is absolutely no shortage of funds in the private it would rapidly become acceptable. sector. The balance sheets of private corporations are Reading page 3 of the Library note on this Bill very generously funded. Therefore, if these infrastructure today, I was disappointed to see the negative comments projects cannot get money from the private sector, one from the Opposition in the other place. To speak as needs to know what the market failure is. If the market pessimistically as Rachel Reeves did for the Opposition—in failure is that the Government should have been spending col. 689—is most disturbing. Surely we should all this money anyway, why are we doing it? If the problem 163 Infrastructure Bill[23 OCTOBER 2012] Infrastructure Bill 164 is that the Government have to spend money because need for support for private developers to get projects will not be funded by the private sector, I housebuilding projects under way, a point made by my understand that. I grew up with that argument and noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. The Bill will have no problem with it, but in that case, £50 billion is allow the Government to provide loans, guarantees not enough. As my noble friend Lord Adonis pointed and other financial support for infrastructure of up to out, there are many more things that could be done. £50 billion. As I understand it, £10 billion of this The Government are not doing that, but are doing could be used to support housebuilding. this. I still have not seen an intellectual case or any One of the problems of our housing infrastructure evidence that significant numbers of people are unable is its age. Very many of our houses were built in the to get money, although it may be the case. One reason last century, the century before and even before that. could be that people need some kind of pump-priming This means that our housing stock is incredibly energy investment so the Government have to start something inefficient and this does not help other matters that we for other people join in. The Government have to are trying to deal with in reducing our carbon emissions. show some confidence in the long-term prospects of We just do not have enough houses. As I understand the economy by, for example, starting a third runway, it, in 2011 390,000 families were created, but we managed upgrading the A14 or whatever, and then there would to provide just in excess of 100,000 new homes. be supplementary investment. But this says that the Government will not do anything except stand there The previous Government, despite the wide-ranging because in 1932 Baldwin prevented the Government but scathing opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord doing it. I find it very surprising that the Government Adonis, did not do a lot for housebuilding. Housing cannot do this in any case, but that is a bureaucratic construction—perhaps it was not all due to the previous thing, a regular Treasury thing, and so I will never Government—actually fell off a cliff during the financial understand it. crisis. In 2008-09, fewer than 100,000 new properties I find it intellectually impossible to understand why were started. Although the number has increased since it is being done now, why, if it is being done now, it then, we are still a long way off building enough new could not have been done two years ago and why a homes. I understand that the revised figure for 2011-12, much more ambitious scheme could not have been as I mentioned earlier, is something in excess of 100,000 done many years ago. Why have the Government properties. Despite this positive news, a far higher waited two years and had a massacre of infrastructure percentage of these new starts were public sector-led, projects before we got to this? Lastly, have the Government either by housing associations or local government, any idea whether this is going to work? I still do not than were privately funded. In 2010-11, 24% of know which projects are stuck because they cannot get constructions were publicly financed compared to between a bank loan. If they cannot get a bank loan, is it 9% and 13% in the decade before. because the project will not make money? If that is The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, did not talk too much the case, is the taxpayer about to lose more money in his opening comments about his own Government’s than before? record on housebuilding. During 13 years of the Labour Government, the social housing stock fell by well over 4.29 pm 400,000. Although they had ambitious targets, they Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I always enjoy the did not meet them in the 13 years. In fact, they contributions of the noble Lord, Lord Desai. I declare consistently failed to meet their social housing target an interest as a vice-president of the Local Government and, in their last year of office, they missed it by Association. This is an important Bill, particularly for 78,000. housebuilding, which is what I shall concentrate on. It The lack of social housing and delivery of new was interesting that Radio 4 yesterday morning highlighted private sector housing has led to a number of very rapidly rising rents in the private sector and highlighted serious consequences. Average house prices in January one of the reasons for this—the shortage of homes 2012 were estimated to be under £200,000, and for that we face in the United Kingdom. Housing is a vital those of us who spend our time in London, we know part of our United Kingdom infrastructure. Not only that here—and particularly in Westminster—the position does housebuilding help to boost the economy, particularly is even worse. This is an increase in the past decade of the construction industry—a point made by my noble almost 70%. An average of 21,658 properties has been friend Lady Gardner—it also solves a number of other deemed to be overcrowded at any one point in the past significant social problems, including social housing three years. The lack of supply has also meant that waiting lists, high rents, the affordability of homes for homes cost more to rent. The mean rent of the private first-time buyers and overcrowding, which is becoming rented sector in 2010-11 was £160 a week, and that has acute in housing in this country. However, despite this, risen considerably, leading to very large bills for housing the coalition Government inherited a housing crisis benefit. That bill has increased from £11 billion in in May 2010. 2000-01 to £21 billion in 2010-11. If we look at other Under successive Governments, the number of homes figures to do with the private rented sector, which is being built has been declining. In particular, social where a lot of people have to find their homes now, housing stocks have been extremely badly hit. The because we have not built so many social properties, coalition Government are committed to building more there has been an 86% increase in working families homes. We have already said that we expect to build claiming housing benefit. We now have more than 170,000 new social homes by the end of this Parliament. 400,000 people receiving housing benefit. What is However, while the Government are investing state more worrying is that we have another 10,000 applying money in many of these projects, there is also a real for housing benefit in the private rented sector every 165 Infrastructure Bill[LORDS] Infrastructure Bill 166

[BARONESS MADDOCK] It is also very important to say that the obverse month. The total number has risen by 37% in three applies—renewed investment does not necessarily imply years. We can see why it is important that we find some more borrowing, even in the short term. Again, it way in which to support the construction of more depends wholly on the economic consequences for homes in our country. jobs, revenue and demand. Whatever the limitations of I shall spend a very short time on the area I come the National Infrastructure Plan 2011, it seems to from, the north-east of England, where housebuilding make clear that infrastructure spending can have a numbers have suffered greatly since the financial crisis. multiplier effect on productivity, employment and demand. They have slightly improved on the latest figures, but The Government should always seek to balance these again in the north-east it is housing associations and things when looking to produce a more effective system local authorities that have taken up the greater number of savings and growth for the economy. of starts. That shows a real need for more support for Infrastructure investment is a key area for other private sector housebuilding. reasons. The professor at Oxford, Dieter Helm, a I have spoken on housing matters in this House for writer I much admire for his work on energy and more than 20 years and in that time housing has never infrastructure, has recently edited what seems to me to been really high up the political agenda. For many be the definitive book on British infrastructure, which years we have not had a Housing Minister sitting rejoices in the sexy title of Delivering a 21st Century around the Cabinet table, which is one reason why Infrastructure for Britain. I do not know how many housing has been a little bit down the agenda. Instead copies it will sell but it is a pretty good book. He of having its own department, it has been part of makes the point forcefully that not many businesses another, now called the Department for Communities would want to locate in the UK because of its and Local Government. In my time in Parliament, infrastructure which, that is the fourth name for that department. It is not “is not fit for the digital age and much of it is very carbon-intensive”. one of the highest performing departments, yet housing It depends which ranking system you chose but in the and housing infrastructure is such an important part most well used one, the Competitiveness Index, the of what happens in our country and in our economy. UK ranks only 24th in the world for competitiveness I am very glad that the Government have brought in the area of infrastructure. The outgoing Labour forward this Bill. If there are technical details about Government must shoulder quite a bit of the blame why we could not do it before, that is a good reason to for this situation. Even though I am a Labour supporter, have it. We need to all we can—and personally I want the Labour Government’s record—my noble friend to see greater progress in the number of homes keeping Lord Adonis will forgive me—in transport, energy up with the number of people and in building homes and housing was not impressive. that produce less carbon. I give my support to the Bill. I have four questions to ask the Minister. I know that he is going to want to reply to the bombardment 4.39 pm from the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, but he might Lord Giddens: My Lords, I hesitate to disagree with perhaps spare a bit of time for my pathetic little two distinguished professors of economics from the inquiries. First, infrastructure is a very wide category same institution as me, the London School of Economics, and the Bill makes it open to a diversity of investors. and with my noble friend Lord Adonis. Actually, I do How will balance be achieved if too much funding not mind; it is good to have a bit of controversy in concentrates on certain areas? How will priorities be these debates, even from the same side of the House. determined? There is a lot on priorities in the national Anyway, I feel more positive about this Bill than they infrastructure plan but I cannot see the relationship do. between that and the Bill at the moment, especially if it is driven too much by who is actually prepared to To me, the Bill is quite interesting, set against a stump up money rather than by an overall plan. background of previous government policy and the Government’s previous approach to cuts. It seems to Secondly, the Government claim initial successes mark something of a move away from the Government’s for their pension infrastructure platform but the problems formerly—if I may say so—somewhat primitive approach of linking pension funds to infrastructure investment to cuts, which everyone accepts have to be made. In are well known. Only 1% of pension funds globally many areas the Government have looked for cuts in a are invested in infrastructure projects—for good reason, simplistic and even counterproductive way by not as there are often high risks in the early stages of such analysing their knock-on consequences. As a result, investment and pension funds are not normally geared we do not even know in some important areas whether to such risk-taking. How will the Government confront the cuts that are made truly are cuts. this issue? I will give an example from the sector that I know Thirdly, and importantly, where will the burden of best, the university sector. In this country we have a risk end up? As these are long-term projects, will the number of world-class universities. However, the burden of risk in the Bill end up with the public sector consequences for the economy of the Government’s in most cases, and therefore will they, as I said earlier, migration policy are very debateable. I have looked at involve far greater cost to the public purse than might the figures provided by the country’s main university appear in the system that is set out? groups, and it seems to me that these measures have Fourthly, energy is mentioned often, but what will cost the country money, not saved it. If you do not be the relationship between this Bill and the new look at knock-on consequences, you simply do not energy Bill, which I believe will be published next know what a cut amounts to. month? At the moment energy policy seems to me, 167 Infrastructure Bill[23 OCTOBER 2012] Infrastructure Bill 168 and I think to most people in the industry, pretty growth since George Osborne took office. That was chaotic, with the Prime Minister saying one thing and entirely predictable and was predicted by some of us. I other Ministers saying something else, with the Treasury have been saying for two and a half years—and I am apparently holding different views from the Department not alone—that austerity would not produce growth of Energy and Climate Change. Do the Government and it has not produced growth. Now the international recognise the need for at least a 20-year planning cycle agencies are saying the same thing. Slowly but surely, for core energy supplies? Does this not imply getting the Government are being driven to plan B, though well away from a strategy based largely on short-term the Prime Minister prefers to call it plan A-plus. market fluctuations? In other words, I do not see from It is against that background that I give a cautious this Bill and the plan how long-term planning is to be welcome to the proposals in this Bill. Better late than achieved. We know that it cannot be achieved by the never, better too little than nothing at all. As I understand methods of the 1960s and that it is difficult to plan on it, the Bill aims to do three things. First, it provides for a long-term cycle when technological innovation and the Government to guarantee up to £40 billion or other innovations are inherently unpredictable. Planning £50 billion of “nationally significant”private infrastructure there must be, though, and the Government should investments which have to be ready to start within devote a lot more attention to what form this will take 12 months of the guarantee. As the Treasury explains if their interventions in infrastructure are to be at it, the aim is, least a little bit more successful than the noble Lord, “to kick start critical infrastructure projects that may have stalled Lord Adonis, thinks is possible. because of adverse credit conditions”. That is Treasury language. The guarantees might cover 4.47 pm key project risks such as construction, performance or revenue. Lord Skidelsky: My Lords, as someone who has never been averse to having a go at the Chancellor of Secondly, the Government will lend money directly the Exchequer, I start by saying how idiotic and puerile to private investors to enable 30 public/private partnership it is for newspapers to make a lead story of which projects worth £6 billion to go ahead in the next ticket he used for his journey from Chester to London. 12 months; I do not think that has been mentioned yet It is George Osborne’s stewardship of the economy, in the debate. Finally, a £5 billion export financing not his travel arrangements, which deserves censure. facility will be available later this year to overseas buyers However, we have an infantile press. of British capital goods; in other words, an export credit guarantee scheme of the type we are all familiar with. Three big mistakes stick out over the past two and a I would like to reinforce what the noble Lord, Lord half years. The first was the belief that cutting down Adonis, said. Having cancelled about £50 billion of government spending would automatically produce certain public capital spending, the Government are recovery. I know the Government now claim that they hoping to replace it with an equivalent amount of never believed anything so simple or idiotic, but they private capital spending, much of which will never did, and there is plenty of evidence to prove it. Austerity happen. That is completely illogical. is not a recovery policy. The main difference between this Bill and the British The second has been the Chancellor’s failure to investment bank, which I have been urging, is that distinguish between current and capital spending. This my bank—I call it “my bank” because I feel a certain has made the deficit seem more dangerous than it was. sense of paternity in the idea, having been floating it The prime example of this blind spot was the £50 billion for the last three years—would actively raise money cut in capital spending. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, in the private markets for its own investment projects has drawn attention to the devastating consequences whereas UK Guarantees, the government scheme, merely of this for the construction industry and for house, provides some finance for projects initiated by the transport, education and hospital building. private sector. In other words, the government scheme The third was the Chancellor’s belief that without a is still governed by the ideology that the private sector severe fiscal contraction Britain would go the way of is more likely to pick winners than a state investment Greece: that is, interest rates would go through the bank and that that is sufficient justification for waiting roof. This was doubly wrong. First, with an independent for the private sector to produce its projects. central bank able to buy government debt in whatever quantities were needed there was never any chance of gilt yields rising to the levels experienced by Greece, Lord Peston: My Lords, the logic of what is being Portugal, Ireland and Spain. Secondly, and perhaps said is not that it is more likely to pick winners but that even more importantly, a reduction in the cost of it already has all those winners. The only things holding government borrowing is no guarantee of a reduction them back are the risks of the projects which the in the cost of commercial loans sufficient to offset taxpayer is taking over. It is a new theory to replace the collapse of the private demand for loans. That is classical economics which—as the noble Lord well the explanation of a point mentioned by the noble knows—says savings cause investment. Now we have Lord, Lord Desai, regarding cash mountains sitting in loan guarantees causing investment and it is just as corporations. nonsensical as a serious piece of economics. All three mistakes were interrelated parts of the wrong theory of the economy. Anyone who is interested Lord Skidelsky: The noble Lord is quite right. The in economics must start the analysis there. I am not argument can be developed, but my point about picking going to go into it, but it is well known to those who winners and losers is that there is no empirical evidence are economically literate. The results have been zero for it being true, as a general proposition, that the state 169 Infrastructure Bill[LORDS] Infrastructure Bill 170

[LORD SKIDELSKY] how many of the net gains in employment are full-time? is more likely to pick losers than the private sector. We Labour market statistics suggest that more than half have had many examples of that not being true. The of them are part-time or self-employed. Can the Minister economic collapse of 2008 is a very good one. also say whether those registered on government work programmes count in the Prime Minister’s extra Lord Giddens: Would the noble Lord accept that 900,000 private sector jobs? The point is this: if a lot of there is actually evidence that the state is quite often the private sector job creation consists of part-time better? If you look at the history of energy industries low-skilled jobs at the bottom end of the service and most technological innovations, they have normally sector, it would explain the decline in productivity that been kick-started by government investment. This applies limits the rise in unemployment, but it is a poor omen to all the major technology that has transformed our for that vibrant, high-value economy that is supposed lives over the past 20 or 30 years. to secure our future prosperity. I wish the Government well in these plans because I wish the country well, but we will need much more Lord Skidelsky: I am happy to accept that. I was solid evidence than we have seen so far to believe that making a more modest claim. we have turned the corner and started to repair the A mere guarantee for privately initiated schemes is damage of the past two and a half years. bound to be less successful, apart from in the efficiency of the schemes, at securing the required volume of 4.58 pm investment than a commitment by the Government to Baroness Wheatcroft: My Lords, I will return to the a definite infrastructure programme. So while I wish narrow interpretation of the Bill, which is about UK Guarantees well, a certain amount of scepticism infrastructure rather than employment figures. We all is in order. know that this country needs investment in our In the final part of my speech, I want to consider infrastructure which is second class. Our housing stock what is happening to the economy. When an economy is too small. The Government are trying to address is crawling along the bottom, any small wave is likely these problems. The Bill is a welcome contribution, to lift our spirits. Over the past three quarters—that is, although it is just one of many measures now being the past nine months—the economy has shrunk by implemented, as the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, pointed 1%. Even if, as now expected, it achieves a positive out. However, as I listened to him and to the noble growth of about 0.8% this quarter, that still leaves it in Lord, Lord Skidelsky, and their criticism of projects roughly the same place as it was a year ago. Moreover postponed, I had to disagree. The noble Lord, Lord if, as commentators suggest, this boost is due to the Skidelsky, may well term me an economic illiterate, Olympics, it will be in the nature of a windfall. However but it was right to postpone these projects because it much we may rejoice in the achievements of our athletes, was a simple matter of the accounts. 28 gold medals is not enough to turn the British When the Government came to power, they were economy around. faced with a dreadful deficit, and their priority, quite However, there is still a puzzle, which is that rightly, was deficit reduction. However, not only were unemployment has been static in the past few months, they seen to be reducing the deficit, but they had to and even falling slightly, despite the fact that output is persuade the financial markets that they were serious. flat and the economically active population has increased Clearly, they have succeeded in persuading them of by 550,000 over the past two years. Youwould therefore that and that is why we have the ratings we now have. expect unemployment to have increased. Why has it Under the previous Government there was much talk not done so? That is the puzzle. There are several about prudence, and prudence with a purpose, but possible explanations, none of them conclusive, because profligacy was the reality. We now have a more prudent the facts necessary for a convincing answer are buried approach, and it is only because of that approach that in a labyrinth of tricky statistics and slippery definitions. the Government are now in a position to bring forward It may be that employers have been hoarding labour, the scheme in this Bill. but that becomes less plausible the longer the recession We heard much talk from the noble Baroness, Lady goes on. Part of the answer at least must be that Maddock, about the rise in rents and the problems productivity—that is, output per hour worked—has that this is bringing to housing benefit. Providing been falling. As the Guardian put it, housing benefit for those who cannot meet their rent “it now requires many more of us to labour away to churn out the now costs taxpayers almost twice as much as it did reduced volume of stuff”. three years ago. We cannot afford that bill, let alone Falling productivity is just as serious a problem for the more. We need more affordable homes to rent and we economy as rising unemployment, and a greater problem need to enable those who want to own their own home in the longer term. to get a foot on the housing ladder. This Bill will help The Prime Minister claims that 900,000 extra jobs by giving backing to those who will provide the new have been created in the private sector over the past homes. However, our needs go far beyond housing. If two years. I never know how many it is—sometimes it we are to compete as an economy, we must make is 900,000 and sometimes it is 1 million; it goes up long-overdue improvements to our road and rail networks, every day, but I am sticking to the 900,000 figure for to our energy supplies, and to our airports. We cannot the time being. That is not of course the net increase in wait too long for that. jobs, given that 400,000 jobs have been lost in the This Bill pledges some useful support for projects public sector. The net increase in jobs has been 500,000. that need a helping hand, but the private sector can, Can the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, tell us and should, finance most of the infrastructure projects, 171 Infrastructure Bill[23 OCTOBER 2012] Infrastructure Bill 172 with the Government in the role of enabler. I am glad the fact that the Olympics were a great success, and the to say that, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord gold medal tally was pretty good too. However, we can Newby, the Treasury is looking at £257 billion worth do infrastructure and we need to get moving on it. of projects to come forward over the next five years. I gather that 180 projects are now earmarked for development. These include the new, and crucial, nuclear 5.05 pm power stations. Negotiations with the suppliers have Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I thank Ministers for now reached a very critical stage, when they have to be briefing some of us about the Bill last night. It was a persuaded that there will be some guarantee of long-term very interesting introduction to it. price stability. I do not know how that can be done, First, I should like to spend a few minutes examining but it is clearly extremely important that we should the wider problems, beyond the financing, associated have nuclear power. The question is: how are these to with getting projects off the ground, such as the be funded? The Government are now striving to find approval process, planning and, of course, the appraisal some innovative ways of securing that funding, because criteria. I think it was two years ago that Infrastructure banks will not provide long-term funding. Five years UK published a report comparing the civil engineering is the longest that many of them will now contemplate. costs of big projects in the UK and Germany. The We are due to hear more about these funding plans costs of construction were remarkably similar, but in the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement. It is interesting what was different was the enormously greater cost of that, thanks to the Indian summer we have just had, getting projects off the ground in this country. It was autumn now comes in December. Apparently, the very interesting that in his introduction the Minister Statement will include details of the new-look PFI. I said that one of the criteria for financing was that you do not want another PFI. They are profligate, foolish, had to get the project off the ground within 12 months and inept, and we will be paying through the nose for of obtaining the finance. That is quite a challenge. many years to come for too many of those schemes First, presumably one has to get through compliance that came forward through the old-style PFI. with the Treasury Green Book, which is an incredibly complicated document. You need lots of consultants’ The public were duped into believing that we could reports to support your case, which costs time and have new schools, hospitals and bridges without paying money, and sometimes the results are such that you a penny. If it looks too good to be true then it is; and it wonder whether the exercise is worth while. A similar was. Too many of the investors, many of them offshore, document is required for transport projects and, again, have made fortunes out of PFI, while the public have it is incredibly complex. It goes down to fractions of a been saddled with long-term future commitments. These second, timing millions of cars, and that decides whether were heads-I-win, tails-you-lose commitments. We do you build a motorway, a road or something else. not want PFI again, or anything like it. We need Again, that costs an enormous amount of money. something new and innovative, and I hope that the What will the criteria be for allowing these projects to Government will come forward with some means of be financed in this way? At the same time, does the providing funding that will not leave the public sector Minister agree that it is about time that the Green on the hook, as it has been. For example, as regards Book and the equivalent transport document were roads, the need for improvement is clear; there are reviewed to make them cheaper and simpler? potholes everywhere. However, if we are to have new roads, someone has to pay, and the Government The next issue is planning, alluded to by my noble simply cannot afford to. Surely it is right that those friend Lord Adonis. Planning delays are getting longer who use the roads pay; whether through tolls or through and longer. I declare an interest as chairman of the other electronic means of road pricing. That is surely Rail Freight Group. Some rail freight terminals in the the way forward. We have to avoid things such as south-east have gone through two planning inquiries. the M6 toll road, where Macquarie, in its various The Minister lost the last judicial review on one of guises, is now said to be making a return of about them, so he is now thinking of a reason for having 150% a year. another planning inquiry. One might suggest that, in considering these things, Ministers should obey the There are sources of long-term financing that we law and look at these things objectively, as I am sure need to tap into for such projects. The insurance and their legal advisers will have asked them to do. However, pension funds have long-term liabilities which could it all adds up to an enormous cost for developers and fit neatly with these schemes. The noble Lord, Lord enormous time delays. Getting planning permission Giddens, made mention of the pension funds. Clearly, for some of these projects can cost £10 million or even they are right to have some qualms, but the Government £20 million because of all the consultants involved. are working with various trade bodies, including the Therefore, while I welcome the finance in the Bill, I am Association of British Insurers, to try to devise ways not sure how much it is going to help things to go in which the funds with long-term liabilities might ahead. come together to provide funding for major infrastructure projects. I hope that we will be able to hear more about Secondly, I want to cover briefly what the Minister that in the Autumn Statement. The talking has gone said about this Bill having minimum impact on the on for a while; it would be good if we were soon to see public sector finances. I would say that I have not been some action. speaking for 10 minutes yet; that may be wishful thinking on someone’s part. There are so many here Finally, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord who are experts on finance that I deign to tread there, Skidelsky, for reminding us that this country can do but if we have a £50 billion fund for investments or infrastructure rather well. We should not lose sight of guarantees, does that not affect the PSBR somehow, if 173 Infrastructure Bill[LORDS] Infrastructure Bill 174

[LORD BERKELEY] previous Labour Government’s plans there was an it still exists? A couple of years ago I asked the intention to have significant reductions to the deficit, Secretary of State for Transport—it was Philip Hammond, about which not one word escaped the noble Lord’s who was two Secretaries of State ago—whether he lips. Presumably, had he had some ongoing responsibility had any views on whether Network Rail’s debts should he would have been trying to make sure that all that be on the government books. He said that he was reduction had no impact on infrastructure spending. agnostic about it; I do not know whether that still But that was wishful thinking. There would have been applies. There is also said to be a debt liability of significant changes in infrastructure spending, even if £1 billion on the Channel Tunnel going back 25 years, the noble Lord was still in his former position. so I do not know how all this works. However, I Another point was made earlier by my noble friend cannot believe that a £50 billion fund or guarantee Lady Maddock. Labour’s record on housing and other from the Government has no effect on government areas of infrastructure expenditure, particularly social finances. I am sure that the Minister will be able to put housing, hardly stands forensic scrutiny. It has certainly me right on that. left us with a legacy on housing which we are struggling While everyone is encouraging projects to go ahead to put right. with a kick-start, I find one in particular a bit odd. This is the second Bill this year that would authorise The noble Lord asked a plethora of questions and government funding for the Thames tunnel. The previous I can respond to only some of them. His concern for one was the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) the A14 is touching. I can confirm that it is a priority Act 2012. Why is there this enthusiasm for pouring project. The Government announced in July that there public money into a Chinese-owned so-called public- will be support for an upgrade of the A14. As he private sector utility? Are the Government not aware surmised, the proposed scheme involves tolling. We that on 18 October the European Court of Justice, in are continuing to work on the funding package and its judgment C-301/10, found that the UK had not are focusing on finding ways to bring forward construction complied with directive 91/271 in respect of the Thames earlier than 2018 by, among other things, streamlining and another river somewhere up north, but that in the planning and procurement processes and identifying seeking to comply the Government should look at the local contributions to the costs of the scheme. As my best known technology that does not impose excessive noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes said, although costs? I think that £4.2 billion—the equivalent of circumstances are different in Australia, if other countries £80 every year for 30 years on every water payer within can do tolling it should not be beyond our ability. the Thames Water catchment area, which goes as far The noble Lord asked about airport capacity and as Oxford and beyond—is probably excessive if there was scathing about the fact that we have now embarked is an alternative. Paragraph 64 of the relevant judgment on a review. Sadly, he did not tell us what Labour’s says: policy was in terms of hub airport capacity. The fact “The concept of BTKNEEC”— that I do not know what it is is no doubt a failure on that is what it is called— my part. He also asked about HS2 and I can assure “thus enables compliance with the obligations of Directive 91/271 him that we are expecting a Bill on HS2 in the next to be secured without imposing upon the Member States unachievable Session. The Government are pressing ahead with the obligations which they might not be able to fulfil, or only at scheme. disproportionate cost”. Even without this government money, then, the Thames The noble Lord referred to the fact that some 63 of tunnel will put all that money on. It may or may not the projects in the national infrastructure plan had comply but the judgment requires the Government to vanished. That is true. It is the nature of large projects: look at this again and at alternatives, which I believe some are brought forward and disappear and others exist. The noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, said that come forward that were not there then. He will be money should be put to good use and spent wisely. relieved to know that next month there will be an This is an example where, if it goes ahead, it certainly update on the national infrastructure plan and he will will not be. I hope that the Minister will impress upon be able to see not just which projects have dropped out his colleagues in Defra the need now for an independent but which new ones have dropped in. review of the different options for complying with the The noble Lord asked why a second Bill concerning ECJ ruling and for mitigating the fine which, at its infrastructure was coming forward with infrastructure worst, I am told could reach £1.5 billion. There is big in the title—the Growth and Infrastructure Bill. That money at stake here and a lot of it could be saved by Bill has a completely different purpose from this one, looking at different options a little creatively. I will be although they have a single objective, which is to bring meeting the Minister in a couple of weeks’ time to forward economic activity. That Bill deals with the discuss this, when I shall expand on it further. planning and other non-financial constraints around getting housing in particular going. This Bill is purely 5.13 pm a financial Bill. Lord Newby: My Lords, as predicted this has been My noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes raised the an extremely interesting debate. I think I have been desirability of getting more small builders operating. grilled by three LSE professors, which is probably par We agree. There has been a big reduction in the small for the course in your Lordships’ House. I will do my building sector. We intend to support the establishment best to respond to many of the questions raised. As an of a debt aggregator, which is an inelegant phrase. introduction, I have two points for the noble Lord, Such a body will be able to raise relatively large Lord Adonis. First, as far as I am aware, under the volumes of finance to lend to organisations such as 175 Infrastructure Bill[23 OCTOBER 2012] Infrastructure Bill 176 builders needing smaller amounts of funding than a Lord Newby: That is a philosophical question, almost. typical bond. It acts as a collective that will allow the When is a menu a plan and when is it not a plan? If money to filter down. I am making a dish, it very often lists a number of My noble friend also asked about the green belt things that are absolutely required to make a successful and infilling. We are committed to safeguarding the dish but it does not necessarily say in what order I green belt, but we recognise that there is some previous need to chop them up. The menu taken together would developed or brownfield land in many green belt areas undoubtedly represent the implementation of a very that could be put to more productive use. We are significant plan. encouraging councils to make best use of this land while protecting the openness of the green belt in line Lord Adonis: Is the Minister not confusing a menu with the requirements of the National Planning Policy with a recipe? A recipe is the plan; a menu is options Framework. which then lead to recipes thereafter, if I can be The noble Lord, Lord Desai, accused us of doing a philosophical. U-turn, or perhaps he congratulated us—I am not absolutely sure. He said that one of the problems is that the system is flush with money and he asked what Lord Newby: I am always in awe of the culinary the market failure is. There are two components, possibly. skills of the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, and am extremely First, many companies are short of confidence to grateful for that way of looking at it. However, whether invest, largely because of the international economic it is a plan, recipe, menu, or none of the above, the key situation. And secondly, the banking sector has not thing is that, as far as risk is concerned, which was the fully recovered from the great heart attack of 2008 and second question that I wanted to address, the Treasury long-term lending in particular has not returned to the will be responsible for managing the risk and assumes conditions that we saw before the crash. This is trying the contingent liabilities. Value for money, as I said to help make it easier for banks which are very unwilling earlier, is key. at the moment to lend in the long term, even for The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, asked about the projects which in normal times they would lend on. As pension infrastructure platform, about which I should I mentioned in my opening speech, the volume of perhaps have said more. As he may know, last week, interest we have had suggests to us that this will be seven pension funds announced that they would be effective. The noble Lord said that many people are initial subscribers to the platform. They will each stuck because they cannot get a bank loan, which is invest at least £100 million. We hope that the system undoubtedly the case. That is because of the problem will be up and running early next year and that it will that I referred to that the financial markets are not in a be the first element of a much larger fund. As to why normal mode for long-term lending. we think that pension funds might now get involved in My noble friend Lady Maddock helpfully referred this kind of investment whereas they have not in the to the fact that the Government are committed to past, the answer is that, in the past, they have been able building 170,000 new social homes during the course to get better returns through conventional means of of this Parliament. But she made the point that there investing the money. At the moment, with interest are 390,000 new households being formed every year. rates so low, they are getting very low returns. The We have a big problem and it is partly a cultural other problem that they have had is that, where they problem across the political parties. In the 1950s parties have gone via private equity houses which have managed had in their manifestos figures indicating the number infrastructure programmes, they have often found that of houses that they were going to build. This was one the programmes have not worked very well and that of the key things that made Macmillan’s career. Housing they have been charged an arm and a leg for it. So this has slipped down the political agenda and different is a way for the funds, with support from the Treasury, sectors—health and education, for example—are vying to get into what could be very important new form for funds. We are all having to reassess the urgency of of investment without what they have seen as being the need to get more funding into housing. It is a the unreasonable cost of going down a purely private long-term issue and it is becoming more and more sector route. clear that it is a difficult issue; all parties, if you look at The noble Lord also asked about the relationship their performance in recent years, have tended to give between this Bill and the energy Bill. The purpose of it a broadly equal degree of priority, but it has probably the energy Bill is to set a framework for investment in not been a high enough degree of priority. the energy sector over the medium term. Once the The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, asked me four energy Bill, which will come forward relatively soon, is exam questions and I will do my best to answer at least enacted, and against the framework that that Bill sets some of them. He asked about priorities and how out, people looking to invest in the energy sector can Infrastructure UK decides between all the proposals form a view about what they want to do and individual coming forward. We have set out a menu of things, all projects will be eligible for support under the Bill. of which are important, but there is not any artificial The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, started with three predetermination of priorities before we see what the nonsenses and will not be surprised that the Government applications say. Every application will be looked at do not agree absolutely with everything that he said. I on its merits. find it almost incredible to think that if the Government had not been seen to get the fiscal position under control, interest rates would not have gone up. Even if Lord Giddens: Would the noble Lord agree that a they had not gone up to the levels that they are at in menu is not a plan? Greece or Spain, a single percentage point increase in 177 Infrastructure Bill[LORDS] Statement of Changes in Immigration 178

[LORD NEWBY] The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, also asked about interest rates, among other things, costs mortgage the Thames tunnel and whether we might have an holders in the UK an extra £12 billion a year and would independent review. Living as I do on the Thames and over the course of a Parliament, with all other things being subject to many public meetings about the Thames being equal, cost the Government about £25 billion. tunnel, it seems to me that the current programme of These are very important considerations. Interest rates proposals on the tunnel involves a huge amount of would almost certainly have been higher if we had consultation and much discussion of alternatives. Having turned on the tap. got this far on what seems to be an unavoidable On his proposal for a British investment bank which necessity, I certainly would be extremely loath to think would raise money in the private market, the noble that we had to go back to the drawing board and start Lord will not be surprised to know that the Treasury again with an independent inquiry. view is that, if that bit of the state is raising money in the private market and conventional government Lord Berkeley: Could the Minister answer my question borrowing is happening in the same private market at about whether there will be a review or abolition of the same time, the markets will judge the pair of them the Green Book? together as a common pool of demand from the UK Government. Therefore, we could not segregate borrowing Lord Newby: It will not be abolished. I will pass on for a British investment bank without it having the noble Lord’s concerns to my colleagues in the consequences for the way in which all government Treasury, who I am sure are already aware of them. borrowing was viewed. This is an important and much needed Bill. It will The noble Lord asked how many of the net gains in allow critical infrastructure projects that are being employment were self-employed or part time. There is held back by adverse credit conditions to proceed and a false assumption that working for oneself or working will support much needed investment in the rented part time are somehow second-class things to do or housing sector. It contains measures that will support things that people do not necessarily choose to do. growth, jobs and families, all at minimal cost to the Some people are forced to do one or the other. However, taxpayer. It will help to unlock the investment that the when I was made redundant in the last property crash UK urgently requires to make it one of the predominant in 1992, I in effect became self-employed by setting up places in the world to do business, and to support my own company and it was one of the better things sustainable growth that is balanced across sectors and that I have ever done. It did not mean that I was regions. I request that the Bill be given a Second economically out of the market or that I was not able Reading. to grow anything. Many people who become self-employed find that they are successfully self-employed. Equally, Bill read a second time. Committee negatived. Standing many people who work part time—and even the Guardian Order 46 having been dispensed with, the Bill was read a accepts that the figure is at least 80%—do so through third time and passed. choice rather than because they are forced to. Statement of Changes in Immigration Lord Skidelsky: Would the Minister be kind enough to answer my question? What proportion of the Prime Rules Minister’s 900,000 new jobs are part time and what Motion of Regret proportion are full time? Further, are those employed under government work schemes included in the figure 5.34 pm of 900,000? Moved by Baroness Smith of Basildon

Lord Newby: I am afraid that I do not have those That this House regrets that notwithstanding figures to hand but I will write to the noble Lord. welcome but limited measures to ensure the deportation of foreign criminals and tackle sham marriages, The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, raised concerns and notwithstanding the importance of greater about continuing the old system of PFI. Many people protection for the taxpayer, the Government have share her concerns about the way that PFI has worked, not demonstrated that the specific minimum annual and in any future schemes I know that the Government income requirement which has been introduced will seek to avoid the problems of the past in that through the Statement of Changes in Immigration respect. Rules (HC 194) is the most effective way to protect The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked several questions, taxpayers and deliver fairness for UK citizens who one of which concerned the criteria were for which wish their spouse or partner to settle in the United projects come forward. As I said in my opening remarks, Kingdom. the five principle criteria are that the schemes be nationally or economically significant, financially credible, Relevant document: 6th Report from the Secondary good value for money for the taxpayer, not solely Legislation Scrutiny Committee dependent on a guarantee to proceed, and ready to start construction in 12 months. He asked whether Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I should say the £50 billion affects the PSBR. The answer is that it at the outset of this debate that we support the affects the PSBR only if guarantees are called upon. Government in their efforts to address and manage My understanding is that if it is a contingent liability, levels of immigration to this country and to make it this does not affect what I still think of as the PSBR. easier to deport foreign criminals, but my Motion of 179 Statement of Changes in Immigration[23 OCTOBER 2012] Statement of Changes in Immigration 180

Regret is on the specific aspect of HC 194, that part of and lived in the UK for a year, when she went back to it which sets an income threshold of £18,600 for Canada to go to university to complete her education, British citizens and people settled here who wish to which would no doubt lead to a better job. As she puts sponsor their spouse or partner to come to live with it to me in her correspondence, it was, them in this country and of £22,400 for couples with “short term suffering for the long term benefits”. children. I would also like, during the course of the debate, to raise with the Government the issue of Her husband visited Canada a couple of times and Article 8 of the European Convention on Human they then decided that they would settle in Canada. Rights—that is, the right to respect for private and For a number of reasons, not least being his responsibilities family life—and the Government’s proposal to find to his family here in the UK, including his parents, greater legal clarity by balancing Article 8 with public who were getting old, he moved back home in 2010 interest considerations. and they agreed that she would follow him once he found work. In the mean time, his wife sent him On income threshold, of course it is right that if an money from her earnings in Canada to buy household individual wishes to bring their family to settle here in items for the new home that they were going to set up the UK, they should not assume that the state will here in the UK. Again, these are people trying to do support them. That is why it is already a requirement the right thing in seeking to support themselves. Alfred for an individual to demonstrate that they have access got a job; he was doing well and she started to complete to sufficient funds at a level that will put them in a the visa application form. However, in July 2012, their similar position to someone on income support here in world just fell apart because he did not earn the the UK, so that they will not seek recourse to benefits. £24,800 that the Government said he had to before his Unlike a blanket income threshold, the current position wife and two children could join him. His father was allows authorities to take into account the different a miner in Wales; he had a low income—both were ways in which a couple may be able to demonstrate proud men and proud of their work. They estimated that they can meet that requirement. For example, that his wife—when they thought she was going to currently, the joint income of a couple can be taken join them—would get a job in the region of £18,000 to into consideration when assessing whether their funds £24,000. Yet despite all their planning, and all their are adequate, as well as the likely employment prospects efforts to provide for themselves, they have fallen foul of one or both of the parties. Couples are also able to of this rule and are now living on different sides of the use an undertaking by members of their family in the world. UK to provide them with adequate funds for maintenance as evidence that they will be able to support themselves There is another lady who contacted me, Miss BF. without recourse to the state. She and her non-EU partner plan to marry in December 2012. She wrote: I understand that that leaves a level of discretion in decision-making, and we support efforts to provide “I do not earn £18600. I work part time as a healthcare greater clarity in the rules, to eliminate opportunities assistant for the NHS. I am unable to work full time as I have a for abuse, but we must also recognise that, nowadays, 14 year old son … If I worked in London I could earn the £18600 however the cost to rent in London would probably be triple the we live in a world where it is commonplace to travel, to cost of my current mortgage. The income threshold does not study, to do business and to work abroad, so it is only allow for variations in circumstances. It does not allow for the natural that people from here in the UK will travel, fall earning potential of single parents, or for women in general. Our in love and form long-term and permanent relations wedding plans are now on hold”. across borders. Family circumstances are not always So no regional variation—or, again, partner’s income—is as straightforward as government policy assumes. Many taken into account. in your Lordships’ House will know of couples of different nationalities, friends and family members, Mr S—a highly qualified man who has worked in who have established long-lasting relationships through government in the past—also outlines in his letter to living and working abroad. me the perverse incentive of an absolute threshold. He When my Motion of Regret was published, I received lives some distance from London. He says: several letters by e-mail and fax from those who have “I’m desperately trying to find a job that would make the been affected by government policy. I do not know required £18,600 a year. In this area, that scenario is a difficult the circumstances of all those who have contacted one, so I’m looking for work in London. If I secure such a job, me, but as a generalisation, I would class those who earning the required salary, it’s likely that most of this would be spent on the high costs associated with living in London. Yet the have contacted me directly as strivers—a term that the government deem this ok. However, I could probably find a job in Prime Minister has used. They are people who work this area earning around £14-15,000 and would have more disposable hard to provide for themselves and their families, not income to support my family whilst having the assurity of living rich or wealthy people, but often people who work with my parents in the short term.”. hard in useful jobs on wages lower than most of us in All these are people trying to do the right thing—trying your Lordships’ House have come to expect in our to support themselves. As there is now no flexibility working lives. in the system, but a very blunt policy of a blanket I want to refer to a couple of examples that I think income threshold, the rules can unfairly penalise couples may help your Lordships’ House in considering the like Mr and Mrs M, and people like Mr S and Miss BF. issue. I shall call one family Mr and Mrs M. They are a Can the Minister confirm that we have members of married couple. She is from a Commonwealth country; the Armed Forces serving overseas who, if they were she is Canadian. Both of them have children from to marry somebody they met on duty overseas, would previous marriages. They married in 2005 in the UK have an income that would fall below the level expected 181 Statement of Changes in Immigration[LORDS] Statement of Changes in Immigration 182

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] judged against other options to see which best delivers by the Government and who therefore would not be the Government’s policy objective, because this measure allowed to bring their new wife or husband back to the is flawed. UK with them? In the current economic climate, an individual earning People who are trying to do the right thing and who £40,000 today might lose their job tomorrow. Is an are strivers—and the Prime Minister has used both income threshold for just one member of the family those terms—and who would so easily be capable of really the most reliable guide to whether a family will supporting themselves and are determined to support be a net contributor to the state over time? Can the themselves without relying on the state, are being Minister confirm that the net reduction in migration turned away. We need a system that delivers protection via the family visa route from this policy will be and fairness for existing tax payers, but also fairness to around 15,700 individuals and that net migration is families like this who will ultimately be net contributors still around 220,000? In advising on the level, the to the system. Migration Advisory Committee acknowledged that a This is about the right to family life for British large proportion of current applicants via the family citizens and those permanently settled in this country. visa route would be unable to meet the requirement That is not an absolute right but one that is rightly of the income threshold set out by the Government. qualified by the public interest test. None the less, it is Leaving aside the amounts required for dependent of the utmost significance to the lives of many British children, it is considered that the threshold of £18,600 citizens who wish to settle their families in the UK. for a spouse or partner would exclude some 45% of Did the Government properly and adequately examine applicants who are currently successful and currently all the options for the most effective method of delivering bound by the same obligation not to have recourse to fairness to both families and taxpayers? We contend public funds. Given that the Government’s policy objective that the Government have failed to do so. The Government is to ensure that families should not become dependant have relied on the response of the Migration Advisory on the state, can the Minister inform your Lordships’ Committee for justification of the policy and the level House whether there is evidence to show whether any, at which the income threshold has been set. or what proportion, of the 45% who will no longer be So, what was the question that the Government eligible have broken that obligation in the past and asked the Migration Advisory Committee, which provided sought recourse to public funds? the evidence that this was the correct policy? Did the We agree that Article 8, regarding the right to Government ask: “Is an income threshold the most respect for private and family life, is a qualified right effective way of delivering fairness for the taxpayer and must be balanced against other public interest and families and preventing abuse of the system?”. considerations, the first of which is public safety. Perhaps the Government asked the Migration Advisory People who reside here on a temporary basis and do Committee: “What would be the best way of ensuring not respect the laws of this country should not be able that those bringing a spouse or dependent children to expect to stay here. It is right that we as a Parliament into this country would not have recourse to public should seek clearly to establish how Article 8 should funds?”. It was neither of those questions. Instead, the be balanced against the consideration of public interest initial question that the Government asked the Migration in such cases. The Home Secretary, in a Motion before Advisory Committee was framed in a way that made it the House of Commons on 11 June 2012, stated: clear that they had decided the policy before asking “Article 8 is clearly a qualified right, but Parliament has never the question. It was, set out how it should be qualified in practice. So, for too long, the “what should the minimum income threshold be for sponsoring courts have been left to decide cases under article 8 without spouses/partners”. the view of Parliament”.—[Official Report, Commons 11/6/12; col. 49.] The policy of a single income threshold had been If the Home Secretary believes that Parliament has a decided, and the question was asked in such a way that duty to clarify the position, why did she table a Motion it could only be answered with an assessment of the in the House of Commons but not in your Lordships’ amount. The Government pre-empted any independent House? advice from the Migration Advisory Committee on what would be the most effective and fair process for When questioned about this approach the Government determining adequate means of support without reliance responded that if a debate on this negative resolution on the state because they had already unilaterally was not triggered by a prayer against the Motion, the decided on an income threshold policy. Government may consider alternative options to ensure that a debate was held in this House. However, if the 5.45 pm Government recognise that they need to have a debate Why did the Government think it unnecessary to in both Houses to ensure that the courts get the clarity consult widely on other options? I am not passing they are seeking, why did the Government not table a judgment or commenting on the merits or otherwise Motion for debate in both Houses? of alternative options. I am not aware of the evidence The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee raised that would allow your Lordships’ House to make a serious concerns about this approach in its sixth report. judgment. However, it seems to be a flaw in policymaking It said: if other options were not fully considered—such as a “We also question why the Home Office is taking a different bond or taking a couple’s combined salary into account, approach in the two Houses: seeking the Commons’ explicit and of course there will be others. An income threshold approval of a motion; but relying in the Lords on the negative or an even higher level of savings should be independently procedure”. 183 Statement of Changes in Immigration[23 OCTOBER 2012] Statement of Changes in Immigration 184

On what evidence have the Government judged that as was drawn to the attention of the House by the this lopsided procedure will be considered by the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee in its report courts as trumping case law? The committee raised back in July. The committee said: similar concerns, saying that: “The changes to immigration rules contained in HC 194 are “While the Home Secretary’s intention is clear, questions extensive although mainly intended to strengthen or clarify the remain about whether the Government’s approach can deliver it. current position and reduce overall numbers claiming a right to The Home Office provides no evidence to support its view that settlement on the basis of family life”. the procedural approach it proposes will lead the courts to react I welcome the fact that we are having a much more in the way the Home Office anticipates … Accordingly we draw open and honest debate about immigration than perhaps this aspect of the policy to the special attention of the House on the grounds it may inappropriately implement its policy objective”. we would have had three or four years ago. I read the memoir, Back from the Brink, by the right honourable Why have the Government not done their job properly Member for Edinburgh South West, Mr Alistair Darling, in this regard and sought to bring forward primary the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, where he legislation to grant both Houses of Parliament the confirms that perhaps things were not spoken about in opportunity to properly debate this issue and provide the past. Immigration is an issue, and it is something the courts with proper clarity on the will of Parliament? about which we should be a lot clearer and have a I said at the beginning of my comments that it is discussion. right that the courts have greater clarity and my right honourable friend the shadow Home Secretary, Yvette If it is the intention of this rule that we are to Cooper, has said in the other place, and we entirely reduce overall numbers, which is how I have interpreted concur, that she would be happy to work with the it, equally the rule changes before the House in this Government to achieve that end. The Government instrument seem to make it absolutely clear that financially, have recognised the lack of legal clarity surrounding among other things—and it is among other things, the need to balance Article 8 considerations in considering because the financial aspect of this minimum threshold the deportation of foreign criminals and yet our great of income is part of a package of rules—people who fear is that they have chosen a method about which live in this country and have dependants can afford to many people have serious reservations that it will maintain them as well as live an average life. I always make any difference at all. The number of foreign think that it is difficult when we talk about averages. criminals deported increased every year under the Therefore, the bar has been set at £18,600, although previous Labour Government. That number is now the appendix to the instrument refers to a, falling by some 18%. “minimum income threshold of £18,600 for those who wish to sponsor the settlement in the UK of a partner of non-European Of course it is right that we crack down on sham Economic Area nationality”, marriages; that we seek to prevent abuse in all areas of and says that a, the immigration system; and that we seek to deliver fairness for taxpayers in this country. That is why we “higher threshold will be required for sponsoring any dependent child under the age of 18 in addition to the partner: £22,400 for supported an increase in the minimum probation period one child and an additional £2,400 for each further child sponsored before settlement under the family visa route and before the migrant parent qualifies for settlement”. limits on the family members who can come to the UK under this route. However, the Government have It would be helpful to the House if my noble friend not demonstrated that the income threshold is the could clarify how that threshold was set. If I have most effective policy to protect taxpayers and deliver understood it correctly, it is the sort of policy that one fairness for those legitimate couples in this country, sees elsewhere. It is a level set to ensure that people are such as Mr and Mrs M, those I have mentioned not dependent on the state. But, equally, there is tonight and others who have written to me and to another dimension to people’s wealth within the family. other noble Lords, who simply wish to live with their I wonder whether my noble friend could touch on partner or spouse in a country which they consider something that was debated in some fullness, along home and not seek recourse to public funding. It with the economic impact of immigration, by the seems to me that in bringing this forward the Government Economic Affairs Committee of this House. I have a are fiddling around the edges while avoiding the biggest copy of the committee’s report from the Printed Paper issue; tackling the thousands of people who overstay Office. In 2007-08, noble Lords discussed the question once here and get lost in the system, often to work in of capital. Apart from the threshold of income, how is the black market, undercutting the wages of people capital considered? I realise that the noble Baroness, in here and living in exploitative and often dangerous tabling this Motion, looked at those on low incomes conditions. and the impact that this measure might have on them, equally there are families for whom capital can be a The Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules substantial part of their income. Will my noble friend does a disservice to the taxpayer and to your Lordships’ say a few words about those who sometimes would be House. It does not address the problem as the Government regarded as capital rich but income poor? Capital does seek to say it does. not seem to be mentioned here at all, so, going back to that very good report that came out of the Economic Baroness Browning: My Lords, I join this debate Affairs Committee of your Lordships’ House in 2007-08, briefly because I was intrigued by the noble Baroness’s will my noble friend touch on that issue? Motion. I have discussed it informally with the noble In adverts that encourage people to migrate to Baroness. Having looked at this and made a study of other countries, one often finds a focus on certain average wages, I think it would be helpful if my noble occupations. In English-speaking Commonwealth friend in replying could confirm what is in the instrument, countries, they are particularly focused on people with 185 Statement of Changes in Immigration[LORDS] Statement of Changes in Immigration 186

[BARONESS BROWNING] they can live with in the country, to live with that certain skills, who are able to carry out certain occupations. relative and to be permanently parted from their parents; Presumably, apart from the need to recruit those skills or, say, if the parents have been in prison and the child into those countries, there is also a focus on the ability has been living in foster care, for them to be deported to be financially independent. I thought that I would with their parent to a country that they have never contribute to today’s debate as earlier in the week I visited before. went through some research that looked at levels of Liberty, too, raises concerns about the implications pay. I realise again that we are dealing with these of the changes for children and concludes: dreadful averages, which are never quite what our “It is clear from the Government’s proposals that it is paying personal experience is of individual cases. For example, little more than lip service to the importance of UK children’s if we look at teachers’ pay, the scale point for people interests in immigration decisions … Far from placing children at newly qualified starts at £21,588. Looking at the salary the heart of immigration decisions, the proposed changes seek to bands that might apply here, we are looking at relieve officials of the responsibility for weighing up the interests professionals and we are probably looking at people of a child in any but the most clear cut cases”. who have gained qualifications in a trade or a profession I would welcome the Minister’s response to that and that would make them employable on coming to this his explanation of how children’s interests will be country. safeguarded. I also took a quick look at regional variations, As we have heard, the Home Office’s human rights particularly the average salaries in cities and the different statement and the Home Secretary have emphasised categories there. In London, the average salary is that Article 8 of the European Convention on Human £33,000 a year, which is not typical perhaps because of Rights, on the right to respect for privacy and family the nature of London. I went up to Aberdeen and life, is a qualified right. As my noble friend Lady found it was £33,000—no different from London. In Smith has already said, we accept that. However, as Bristol, in the south-west, the average was £27,900. I Liberty argues, there is, will not read them all out to the House but I did not “a delicate balancing exercise to be struck between the rights of find any figures in the average city salaries below the the individual and wider social interests in, for example, the £18,600, or anywhere near it, that would sustain a reduction of crime and disorder and the protection of the economic family with two children. interests of the UK”. I want to ask my noble friend this question and I Liberty and I do not accept that the proposed changes, ask for a frank reply to it. If we are reducing the “properly accommodate the fact-sensitive balancing exercise that number of people allowed to come to live and work in the right demands”. this country—which is what the instrument is about Liberty argues that instead they, and this is an open policy as we realise these matters “represent a one-size-fits-all approach to complex immigration need to be brought under control—are we gauging it decisions. … Far from better reflecting the proportionality required at £18,600 plus the additional amounts for dependent under Article 8, the proposed changes seek to circumvent the children on the assumption that people will have crucial fact sensitive consideration of decisions involving fundamental qualifications or professions in which they can work rights”. which would add to the British economy? Is that what The Government argue that the income threshold is is steering it? Can my noble friend give some indication proportionate in meeting their legitimate aims of as to whether that figure is to recruit people where we safeguarding the economic well-being of the UK. It is have skills shortages or just a bar that has been set to a sad day when the economic well-being of the UK make sure that in opening our shores to people from depends on keeping apart a few thousand poor families abroad we are not encouraging dependency on the each year without adequate attention being given to state? safeguarding the well-being of children and their families. The Migrant Rights Network points out that, because 6pm of differences in earnings across different social groups, Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, it is always the new income requirement will disadvantage women, a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Browning. who we know are still on average paid less than men, She has raised some very pertinent questions. While I some minority ethnic groups and people living outside want to focus on the income thresholds, I want also to the south-east. My noble friend gave an example that draw attention to the concerns raised by BID, Bail for illustrated the unfairness of that fairly arbitrary or Immigration Detainees, about the implications for one-size-fits-all limit. children of measures to ensure the deportation of The Home Office human rights statement foreign criminals. acknowledges that the income threshold may be challenged BID’s experience is that wide powers already exist under Article 14 of the European Convention of Human to deport foreign national ex-offenders, and in the Rights in terms of its equalities impact, particularly very few appeals against this which are successful it is with regard to whether this constitutes unjustified often because the courts have found that grave harm indirect discrimination against these groups—for example, would be caused to a child by deporting the parents. It women and those nationalities who the evidence shows says that the Government are now seeking to prevent are likely to have lower earnings. Having raised this the courts from upholding the law to protect these possibility, the Home Office’s only answer was that families. In the view of BID, the measures do not this will be mitigated in some cases by the exemption allow for adequate consideration of the child’s best from the income threshold of those in receipt of interests. For example, it does not follow that it is in a carer’s allowance, and that certain contributory benefits child’s best interests, if there is another relative that such as maternity allowance will be allowed to count 187 Statement of Changes in Immigration[23 OCTOBER 2012] Statement of Changes in Immigration 188 towards the income threshold. That is welcome as far year-old son and lives in a detached house in Huddersfield. as it goes, but it does not go very far. Otherwise, the He fell in love with and married an Indonesian woman Home Office considers that any indirect discrimination and his wife applied for a spouse visa on 26 June. As a is proportionate to public policy objectives. We will self-employed worker, he submitted three years of see, but I imagine that this will be tested in the courts. bank statements—originals and copies—and everything I find it repugnant that we are going to means test as requested, leaving no stone unturned. For over two family life. Means-testing generally purports to target months the message was that the application was help on the needy and exclude the better off. This is a under process at the British Embassy, until early September reverse means test that excludes the needy, as if people when an e-mail arrived asking for the spouse to take on low incomes have nothing to contribute to this an SELT English test. The e-mail indicated that if she country. The existing “recourse to public funds” rule is did not submit this within seven days, the application already designed to prevent the supposed burden on would be rejected. Despite the short notice, the wife the taxpayer that we hear so much about. According took the test and submitted it on time. A month later, to Liberty, and as my noble friend has already said, it they received a message saying that the application is being replaced by a far blunter instrument. was refused because of the English test. Rob was The impact statement makes a virtue of the shift amazed because his wife’s English was extremely good. from a more discretionary approach, which it says is On inquiry, they found that she had passed the reading, complicated for caseworkers to operate, yet in other writing and listening requirements but had inadvertently areas of policy the Government favour more discretionary omitted the speaking part. A lawyer advised them that approaches and say that we have to get away from a the only remedy was to lodge a fresh application, at a one-size-fits-all approach. Indeed, as Liberty argues, cost of £900. The same thing happened to a friend of the proposed changes as a whole contain an armoury mine. It is not an uncommon experience for people to of blunt instruments which, far from better reflecting make a minor error and find that the whole application Article 8 and the Immigration Rules, may well leave has been rejected. The UKBA does not give applicants the rules in breach of it. a chance of remedying minor omissions of this sort. The changes reflect badly on a Government who The Motion says that the Government have not claim to be the most family-friendly Government ever demonstrated that the specific minimum financial and who are supposed to be applying a family test to requirement is the most effective way to deliver fairness. all their domestic policy decisions, as they suggest that That stricture can also be extended to the provisions some families are considered not to matter because of dealing with savings. This may answer part of the their immigration status and their poverty. question put by the noble Baroness, Lady Browning: I quote the example of a woman with three children Lord Avebury: My Lords, this is a very important applying to join her husband who would have to show debate, focusing as it does on family and children’s evidence of savings of £62,500, which is well beyond rights. We have all heard from organisations such the resources of most young families. as the ones that have been mentioned, including by A four-page guide produced by UKBA tells applicants the noble Baroness, Lady Lister—Liberty, Bail for that they need to read Appendix FM-SE, another Immigration Detainees, and so on—and I shall rely on 26 pages of dense prose, which was added to the rules the evidence that has been given to them in my later on 20 July, specifying what supporting documents remarks. may or not be supplied as evidence of compliance with Since these changes were published, a further three particular financial requirements. The sums involved sets of changes have appeared: HC 514 of eight pages, are undoubtedly substantial and they mean that many HC 565 comprising 56 pages and Cm 8423 with 276 pages. spouses and children who would have been able to These latter two statements spell out in detail how satisfy the previous requirement—that they could be decisions on leave to enter or remain are to be made, supported and accommodated without reliance on following the rulings of the Supreme Court in Alvi. To public funds—will now be denied entry. That is, indeed, summarise, at the risk of oversimplification, Alvi said the letter of Government policy.The Migration Advisory that statements in guidance and elsewhere that were Committee estimates that if the financial requirement not in the immigration rules, such as particular types in this set of rules had been in force in 2011, it would of evidence that have to be submitted with an application, have excluded 45% of successful applicants, even though were unlawful because they had not been laid before all those spouses and children were assessed as not Parliament as required by the parent Act. I realise that needing access to public funds. we are not talking about these subsequent statements of changes this evening, but obviously the legal advisers 6.15 pm and their clients who are considering the effects of HC The £18,600 limit is to be applied to the sponsor 194 will have to look at these other instruments as alone—no account being taken of the potential earnings well. It would be astonishing if, given the length and of the spouse, the support provided in many cases by complexity of all the changes taken together, there third parties such as the spouse’s parents, or the provision were not a steep rise in the number of applications of free accommodation by parents or other relatives. rejected because of some minor omission or mistake. Aaron, a British citizen who is married to Kano, a My first example is from the organisation BritCits, Japanese woman he met when she was in the UK on a which defends the interests of families who are affected two-year working holiday, lives in Bristol where all his by this set of changes. Rob is a British professional family and friends are also based. It is an area of low musician with a first-class degree in music. He has pay but also of lower living costs, and Aaron earns taught music and performed at concerts, has an eight just under the £18,600 threshold. With his wife’s potential 189 Statement of Changes in Immigration[LORDS] Statement of Changes in Immigration 190

[LORD AVEBURY] domestic and European, and to issue corresponding earnings, the couple would be easily able to support guidance to the decision-makers and presenting officers themselves without recourse to public funds, but that so that they would refrain from trying to advance cuts no ice under these new rules. long-rejected arguments about the application of Article 8 Then there is the treatment of elderly parents, which and, latterly, the best interests of children. This was has not been mentioned so far. Sonel is a British one of the reasons why UKBA lost 36% of the cases citizen living in the UK for more than 12 years. She that went to appeal in 2010-11. has worked for the British Government, paid her taxes It is also not clear that the UN Convention on the and never claimed a penny in benefits. She now wants Rights of the Child is satisfied by the absence of any the right to bring her elderly parents here from Australia, discretion. The Explanatory Memorandum states at where they have no family, so that she can look after paragraph 7.5 that, them in their old age. However, the new rules state that “where a child would have to leave the UK as a consequence of if you have two parents living together in another the decision to remove their parent … the best interests of the country, you can bring them here only if they are so child will normally be met by remaining with their parents and incapacitated that they cannot dress, wash or cook for returning with them to the country of origin, subject to considerations of long residence in the UK”, themselves. Even that is not enough, though; I believe that the rule has been designed to prevent any elderly and any exceptional factors. parents being able to join their children here, although In many of the deportation appeals that currently every other country in Europe allows it, and I ask my succeed on Article 8 grounds, children will have been noble friend to say how many have actually managed separated for periods of years from parents serving to get past this rule—or how many he thinks will get prison sentences. They may have formed strong bonds past it. with their foster carers, and being suddenly separated from these carers could be very harmful to them. At The Government want to get total net immigration the same time, though, the involvement of their parent down to below 100,000 by hook or by crook, and they in their daily care could be of vital importance to the do not care if in the process they divide thousands of child’s well-being. If so, it is unlikely that the child’s families by excluding spouses and elderly parents. In best interests will be served by reuniting her with this doing so, they have gone as far as they dared towards parent at the boarding gate of a flight to a country the limit set by Article 8, taking into account the where they have never been before, as part of a forcible qualification set out in the Explanatory Memorandum. deportation. In these and other situations, the best The former Minister for Immigration, Damian Green, interests of the child may be served by giving her the said rightly that no set of rules can deal with 100% of chance to re-establish a relationship with their parent cases, but he was wrong to suggest that genuinely in the UK, while still having the support of the foster exceptional circumstances could be dealt with by means parents. Yet there is no allowance for this in the of discretion exercised outside the rules. In the case of Statement. EB (Kosovo) in 2008, the House of Lords declared: The policy vacuum that the Home Office says is “The search for a hard-edged or bright-line rule to be applied caused by keeping proportionality decisions outside in the generality of cases is incompatible with the difficult evaluative the rules could easily have been remedied by changes exercise which article 8 requires”. in the rules that reflected the decisions of the courts. I The inference of the new rules is that an evaluation of would be grateful if my noble friend could say how it private and family rights under Article 8 is not necessary plans to deal in the future with decisions that go because they are already taken care of in the text of against it on grounds of proportionality, as may well the rules. There will be no exceptionality test because, occur. Just because Parliament says that it has drawn as the Supreme Court and the House of Lords have lines saying what the boundaries of proportionality said repeatedly, there is no such thing. There is no are does not mean that those boundaries are specific requirement, for example, to consider the best unchallengeable, or that the courts will treat them as interests of the child or to have regard to the age, sacrosanct. health or vulnerability of any person affected by a decision. Where there have been significant delays by the UKBA and the weight given to the public interest The Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich: in favour of a person’s removal has thereby diminished, My Lords, I do not mean to detain the House for long, there is no scope to vary the decision dictated by these but I would like to echo some of the concerns that Procrustean rules. have been mentioned today, particularly on the inflexibility of the income test. Looking at what is laid before us The Home Office points out that in assessing the —a specified gross annual income of at least £18,600, proportionality of decisions under Article 8, decision- an additional £3,800 for the first child and an additional makers were not able to rely on the rules to ensure £2,400 for each additional child—a clergy family with compliance with Article 8, but the Home Office is three children would not earn enough stipend to meet wrong to conclude that the practice of the courts and that test. The reason why they survive very well is the inadequacy of the rules prior to the statement that because their housing costs are met, as are their council we are discussing, tax, and there are other means of keeping them housed “led to unpredictability and inconsistency which are anathema to in areas where the Church wants them to live and minister. good administration”. I can think of two examples of a UK passport One of the main causes of this unpredictability and holder, a member of the clergy, whose spouse holds a inconsistency was the Home Office’s failure to accept foreign passport outside the EU, one of whom has and implement the judgments of the courts, both three children. Whatever you think of the mission of 191 Statement of Changes in Immigration[23 OCTOBER 2012] Statement of Changes in Immigration 192 the church, which is of course promoting the Christian this country, because they were restricted in going to religion of the Church of England, one of them also other EU states. They repopulated much of Scotland, lives in an extremely deprived area, and the social and in the south-west, where I come from, they manned capital that he has added to that area is considerable. much of the tourist industry, which had found it This is not simply someone coming to take advantage difficult to find talented and energetic workers. Therefore, of the state but someone who has given an awful lot, I regret that that happened. which has been recognised by local authorities. I understand entirely that sham marriages exist. Inflexible rules cannot deal with these sorts of They are a cancer on the institution of marriage and difficult anomalies, and so discretion needs to come they are probably growing in number. That has to be in. The overall thing that I would like to echo is: how is stopped by whatever means possible. I also agree that this now being monitored? How is it being applied, there cannot be limitless migration. However, our and is it applied fairly? When UK Border Agency hard society is becoming more and more international. cases come into the public domain, anxiety is always Taking my family as an example, some of my wife’s raised, and of course it is easy to do that. I appreciate children live in Singapore and others live in Argentina. the fact that these are hard-working officials, and Her grandchildren have mixed religious affiliations indeed, when given an opportunity to meet some of and mixed nationalities. People meet other people them I appreciated their frankness and their willingness more and more on an international basis, particularly to look at how they might help. Nevertheless, there are when they are youngsters and in their first areas of too many stories of the difficulty that the noble Lord, work. Therefore, this problem is going to get worse. Lord Avebury, described as happening in some of I say to the Minister that I believe this matter comes these applications. I can think of another member of down to two important issues. Those are fundamentally the clergy, a UK passport holder, who was going moral and ethical, with human rights perhaps coming through the whole process to help his spouse to get third. First, it must be fundamentally in the DNA of leave to remain. They were told that they could not the UK that its citizens can marry whomever they apply before a certain time limit. They applied at the want. That has to be a basic right of our citizens, who time limit and then, when they applied for a slot for have one of the greatest and deepest histories in terms her interview, they were told “There are no slots left”. of being able to exercise individual rights. I also say to These are intelligent people who can cope with that my Conservative colleagues—perhaps not the ones sort of thing, but there are many people who cannot. who are here but some of the others—that it is absolutely I do not think that anyone in this Chamber would wrong for the state to intervene so strongly in deciding want to deny the scale of the problem that we must whom you are able to marry and live with. It is wrong face as a country, but against that background, having that the state should be able to intervene to that realised the problem, where are fairness and justice degree. If the marriage is a real one—and that is going to be helped to be seen to be done, and how is always the important question—then people should the UK Border Agency being monitored to see that it be able to marry exactly whom they like and to live is applying standards of fairness to the best of its ability? exactly where they like.

Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I confess to a number Lady Smith of Basildon, very much for bringing this of areas of confusion, the first being what the rules regret Motion before the House. In fact, if anything, I actually say. Other noble Lords have referred to their regret that it is only a regret Motion. I would certainly complexity. For me, looking at any set of Immigration have followed her through any Lobby if it were more Rules is a quick route to a migraine. I have been used of a fatal Motion because I feel that there are some to reading rather more than glossy magazines in the fundamental issues here. course of my career, so if I find them difficult—without It is interesting that this regret Motion has been put wanting to be too big-headed—then so will many, forward this week. My weeks are often imaged by the many others. cover of the Economist, which I read most weeks. This I was reassured, in a sense, by the briefing from the week it is inaccurate in one way, although accurate in Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association but that another. It says: reassurance is very limited. It tells us that it is running “Immigration. The Tories’ barmiest policy”. advanced courses for solicitors and barristers on the Of course, that is wrong. It is not a Tory policy; it is a financial requirements that are a part of these rules coalition policy.It includes my party as well. Its argument and has sent noble Lords an extract from its training is that the policy on immigration very much restricts notes, just to give us a glimpse of the complexity. Our the economic and financial potential of this country, laws should be accessible. Immigration is so difficult but here we have pinpointed an area where we are that legal practitioners have to be specially licensed. I, restricting the moral, ethical and family aspects of our for one, am very grateful to the organisations that have society within the UK. briefed us. They helped me to short-circuit the work for this debate quite a lot, but that is not good enough I say to the noble Baroness that I was probably one when you are actually advising individuals. of the few people in this country to be very disappointed that the leader of the Opposition apologised for Labour’s “migration mistakes” in 2004, which allowed the best 6.30 pm talent from the new European member states—which The second area of confusion is on procedures. I do in many ways we had treated treacherously in the not normally like getting hung up on procedures, settlement after the Second World War—to come to because it is the substance that matters, but this is 193 Statement of Changes in Immigration[LORDS] Statement of Changes in Immigration 194

[BARONESS HAMWEE] Many of the rules throw up a particular concern something to which the noble Baroness referred because about the interests of any child who is involved. The it is within the report of the Secondary Legislation 2009 Act places a duty on the Secretary of State to put Scrutiny Committee, of which I am a member. It in place arrangements for ensuring that “regard” is commented that it was important to know the basis of given to the need to safeguard and promote the welfare a debate because that affected the “steer” that the of a child in the UK in relation to immigration. I am courts would take. Since the rules are now in force, the not entirely clear how much of the concern arises from distinction to which it drew attention between a general the rules and how much is underlying the rules from debate and a prayer may be history, to an extent. that primary legislation. But it is certainly the case However, that is probably history which will repeat that the interests of the child are not paramount in itself in the future. I certainly agree that how we deal this area. “Regard” is only a point along the spectrum, with Immigration Rules—I would use both an upper and we have been given a number of examples of how and a lower case “r” for that—leaves a good deal to be family life and the interests of the child have been and desired. will be affected. Thirdly, I have to say that there is a little confusion Liberty has drawn attention to its concern that: about the Motion itself. It is not like the noble Baroness “Far from better reflecting the proportionality required under not to be straightforward. I think I read in her Motion Article 8, the proposed changes seek to circumvent the crucial fact sensitive consideration of decisions involving fundamental that the rules are welcome, but not welcome enough, rights”. on deportation and that “protection for the taxpayer” There are, of course, real concerns about the impact of is important. However, I then get a bit stuck on the the rules. Having read the statement dealing with the phrase, presumption that a person is liable to deportation if “notwithstanding the importance of greater protection for the the public interest requires it—which covers a lot more taxpayer”. ground than just when there has been a criminal I am not sure where the noble Baroness was pointing offence—something occurred to me. Without wanting your Lordships with that reference. I think I am rather to condone criminal behaviour, because my party has more critical than she is on that basis, and in two made it very clear that we seek to prioritise the deportation respects. First, the taxpayer has an interest in the of criminals, could some immigrants, being destitute, system working well on its own terms—there must be have been driven to petty crime? Have we placed them a question of whether one so complex actually does in that situation? so—and, secondly, in the value for money of its Rule 399 seems to be very tough, but it includes administration. discretion. It states that “leave may be granted” and that a, There is also the wider interest of the taxpayer: yes, in value for money but this taxpayer, for one, believes “person may qualify for further limited leave”. that being in a country that welcomes immigrants and I do not understand whether these provisions are what they bring in terms of their culture as well giving the Secretary of State a discretion. I do not as their skills is important, as is being in a country know whether the Minister will be in a position to which recognises the breadth and depth of its moral amplify this tonight because I have not given notice of responsibilities and is conscious of its reputation. I am this question, so perhaps he can do so later. But do instinctively uneasy at the implication that a restrictive Rules 399B and 399C, from which those extracts come, immigration policy is the best way to protect taxpayers. give the Secretary of State a discretion or do they do There are of course few subjects more emotive than something else? I would be glad to have an explanation immigration, although noble Lords who have had at some point. anything to do with local government will know that Turning to those who seek to come into this country dogs and trees are up there with it. I believe that it and the financial requirements, I recognise that £18,600 really would put the wider debate on immigration is at the lowest end of the range in the Migration policy on a much firmer footing if responsibility for Advisory Committee report. I am pleased that, as a immigration statistics were in the hands of the Office result of my party’s influence, the figure was not for National Statistics. predicated on earning the median wage. But they are complex figures. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, I understand that the Government are seeking to referred to the question of capital and the rules give us provide clarity and certainty around the application of a multiplier of 2.5. It would be helpful if the Minister Article 8. However, Article 8 does not really lend itself could tell us how that figure was arrived at. I must say to certainty—certainly not to complete certainty. It is to the noble Baroness that Aberdeen, in both its not absolute, being conditional and circumscribed, income levels and housing costs, is very close to London, so the rules themselves provide, to quote the ones on but the rest of Scotland is mostly rather different. deportation, “only … in exceptional circumstances”, and “normally” to be proportionate. My noble friend I am concerned about the probationary period. As Lord Avebury has reminded us that Lord Bingham I read it, a couple who have lived together overseas for said: four years have to live together for a further five years when they come to this country to qualify for leave. “The search for a hard-edged or bright-line rule to be applied That takes us beyond the seven-year itch. The qualifying to the generality of cases is incompatible with the difficult evaluative periods seem long. When I say long, I mean that they exercise which article 8 requires”, do not recognise the closeness of a relationship to because each case, being different, requires judgment which my noble friend Lord Teverson referred. The and discretion. English language requirements are something to which 195 Statement of Changes in Immigration[23 OCTOBER 2012] Statement of Changes in Immigration 196 my noble friend Lord Avebury drew attention and Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights. about which he expressed concern in a debate earlier The rules now correctly reflect the strong public interest this year. I will not talk about those any further but under Article 8 in seeing foreign criminals removed they are on the agenda in this context, too. from this country. I welcome the support that the As almost all noble Lords have said, and the noble noble Baroness has given to these measures. Baroness was very clear about this, we live in a world Through my noble friend Lady Hamwee, I thank where people meet partners from overseas, but the the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad—who is not in his rules do not seem consistent with the Government’s place at the moment—and the members of the Secondary express support for marriage and family life. My own Legislation Scrutiny Committee for drawing the rules personal example is of a young woman, not an EEA to the attention of the House. The committee has national, married to a British man. She is a human reviewed the new rules and made some important rights lawyer, employed by an international agency a observations about the relationship between them and long way from the EEA, and she wants to join him the European Convention on Human Rights. The here. The five-year probationary period will make it Immigration Minister, Mr Mark Harper, has written very difficult for her because the sort of job that she to the committee in response. I cannot be sure that would be looking for—ironically, in the human rights noble Lords will have seen that letter, but, with the field—would be likely to be in somewhere like Geneva leave of the House, I shall place a copy in the Library. or Brussels, and she would jeopardise her UK status if Perhaps I should comment on why there have been she were to pursue her admirable career in that way. different parliamentary procedures in the Commons The changes will not, as the Home Secretary has and in the Lords. It was explained by the approach of acknowledged, mean big differences in terms of a the Home Secretary in her Oral Statement to the reduction in migration so I close by repeating my call House of Commons on 11 June. The House of Commons for migration statistics to be—if I can put it this had a four-hour debate on this issue; we are having a way—migrated to the Office for National Statistics. debate here, too, to address these important issues because the rules of this House enable a Prayer to be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home tabled against rules of this nature. I am pleased that Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My Lords, I welcome we have had the opportunity of doing so. I hope that this debate. The Motion tabled by the noble Baroness, we will continue to scrutinise this important area of Lady Smith, has given us an opportunity to debate government policy. this matter in this House. It has been a good debate I may return to the purpose of these changes. Our and a lot of very interesting aspects of these rules have second aim is to promote the integration of family been raised. I am sure that noble Lords will not expect migrants into British society; for example, by requiring me to comment on individual cases. My noble friend those applying for settlement from October 2013 to Lady Hamwee did me a good turn by referring to the demonstrate that they can speak and understand English complexity of the rules because they are indeed extremely at intermediate level. I do not think that any noble complex. If I fail to cover particular aspects of the Lord has criticised that proposal, although my noble points made and questions asked, I hope that noble friend Lord Avebury pointed to a situation where Lords will forgive me if I address them in correspondence somebody had fouled up the test by not completing it after the debate. properly. I think that it is a reasonable expectation These new rules are a major reform of the requirements which enhances the rules. for family migration by people of non-European The third objective, which has aroused considerable Economic Area nationality. They form part, as noble debate, is to reduce burdens on taxpayers, in particular Lords have said, of the Government’s overall programme by introducing a minimum income threshold of of reform of all routes of entry into the UK. The new £18,600 a year to be met by those wishing to sponsor family rules have three aspects, and I thank my noble the settlement of a partner, with higher amounts for friend Lady Browning for her welcome of these three sponsoring dependent children. I do not think that I aims. My noble friend Lord Teverson pointed out that paraphrase the noble Baroness too much in saying the coalition has taken a different view from his own. I that this was really at the heart of her Motion. accept that but I think he will agree that the coalition Those who wish to establish their family life here is being consistent in its approach of this vexed problem must be able to stand on their own feet financially. of immigration. Family migration needs to be on such a properly I would also like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady sustainable basis, which is in the interests of migrants Smith, for her general support of elements of these and of communities in the UK as a whole. The previous rules. First, they tackle abuse; for example, by extending requirement, for applicants to be maintained adequately from two to five years the probationary period before —for which there was a test, despite what the noble partners can apply for settlement to test the genuineness Baroness, Lady Lister, said when she questioned the of the relationship concerned. My noble friend Lady need for a threshold—was interpreted by the court as Hamwee questioned that, but I believe that it is a income equivalent to the level of income support, reasonable expectation which should help to deter which is around £5,500 a year for a couple. This, applications based on sham marriages. frankly, was not an adequate basis for sustainable family migration and good integration outcomes. In 6.45 pm particular, it provided little assurance that UK-based The new rules also make it harder for foreign criminals sponsors and their migrant partner could financially to prevent their deportation from the UK through support themselves and any dependants over the long- weak claims to a family or private life here under term. 197 Statement of Changes in Immigration[LORDS] Statement of Changes in Immigration 198

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] My noble friend also asked how the capital should Section 115 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 be dealt with. As pointed out by my noble friend Lady generally prevents a migrant partner accessing welfare Hamwee, the multiplier is two and a half times the benefits before they qualify for settlement but not shortfall in income, and that, too, I believe, came from thereafter. The Department for Work and Pensions the same recommendation from the Migration Advisory has estimated that in February 2011—these are the Committee. figures that I have—around 267,000, or 5%, of payments of working-age benefits were made to migrants of Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, while the Minister is non-EEA nationality when they registered for a national on that point, it would be helpful to the House if after insurance number. This included migrants who entered today we could have an explanation of what lies the UK through the family route. behind both that action, which is less of an issue because it is a judgment, and my noble friend’s question The old maintenance requirement also involved a about why a spouse’s income is disregarded. Indeed, complex assessment of the current and prospective one could add to that the question of why support employment income of the parties, of the extent of from a third party, such as a parent of one of the their other financial means—including current and spouses who would be prepared to guarantee the promised support from third parties—and of their income, which I am sure is not uncommon, should be housing costs. It also relied on complex provisions in disregarded. What lay behind those decisions? What the Immigration Rules designed to prevent sponsors was the rationale? I do not expect the Minister to accessing additional benefits from the migrant’s presence answer that now. in the UK, which were hard to administer effectively. That is why the Government have decided to established a new financial requirement for sponsoring family Lord Taylor of Holbeach: It would be much easier migrants which is fair and transparent and which for me if I could inform myself before I sought to helps to prevent family migrants becoming a burden inform the House on that issue. I have stated the on the taxpayer. position as I know it to be, without knowing fully the policy development that led to that conclusion. As has been pointed out by noble Lords, the minimum There has been criticism of the fact that there is no income threshold of £18,600 for sponsoring a partner regional variation but, once people are in this country, and the higher levels for also sponsoring dependent they are free to move wherever, and it was felt that children at £22,400 for one child and an additional there could be great difficulties if a regional variation £2,400 for each further child—and I reassure my noble were permitted for that very reason. friend Lady Browning that she has those figures right—are The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, expressed concern based on the independent advice of the Migration about what will happen to people who lose their jobs. Advisory Committee. These reflect the level at which, We will expect a migrant to be able to meet the same taking account of any children, a couple once settled financial threshold when they apply for further leave in the UK generally ceases to be able to access income- but, once the migrant is in the UK, we count any related benefits. income that they earn, as well as money from their sponsor, towards the threshold. That is an important The Government consider this to be a fair and response to the question raised by my noble friend adequate basis for family migration that is right for Lord Avebury. In some circumstances, we will allow migrants, local communities and the country as a the migrant to continue at a lower rate on a longer whole. My noble friend Lady Browning rightly got to route to settlement to allow that transition to take the nub of this issue when she asked why the income is place. Both the noble Baroness and my noble friend set at £18,600. It is set at this level because people asked about prospective earnings and I will seek to earning this amount will have skills to contribute to answer that in correspondence, as I promised. the UK economy, and it is the level of income at which We have also built significant flexibility into the the Migration Advisory Committee advised that a operation of the threshold—for example, by exempting couple once settled generally cease to be able to access sponsors in receipt of certain disability-related benefits income-related benefits. or carers’ allowance. I was asked specifically by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, about the Armed Forces. Lord Avebury: My Lords, if that is the case, why The Armed Forces are exempt from these rules. have the Government refused to take into account the The noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, felt, income provided by the spouse? Surely, if the £18,600 as did several noble Lords, that the rules were not figure is sufficient to ensure that recourse to public sufficiently focused on children. We understand the funds is not on the cards, then that £18,600 should importance of the statutory duty, which goes back to apply to the joint incomes, not to the income of the the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act, to sponsor. safeguard and promote the welfare of children in the UK. That is why we have reinforced our approach by Lord Taylor of Holbeach:That is the decision that bringing consideration of the welfare or best interests was made. The Migration Advisory Committee was of children into the Immigration Rules. After all, the asked to look at the amount of money that a couple best interests of the child will normally be met by would require on the single income—the sponsor’s remaining with their parents and returning with them income. Indeed, it is the sponsor’s income that is vital to their country of origin, subject to considerations to understanding this case. such as long residence in the UK, their nationality and 199 Statement of Changes in Immigration[23 OCTOBER 2012] Statement of Changes in Immigration 200 any exceptional factors. The new rules lay out a clear few. I mentioned one to him about the perverse incentive framework for weighing the best interests of the child where an individual would have to go and live in a against the wider public interest in removal cases. more expensive part of the country to see their income The minimum income requirement that we have increase, even though their costs would increase, including introduced is, I believe, the most effective way to their rent or mortgage, and their disposable income protect taxpayers and deliver fairness in respect of would fall. That would qualify them to be able to family migration to the UK. I invite the noble Baroness, bring their spouse into the country because they had a Lady Smith, to reflect on my response. higher income level. That is a perverse incentive, to have a lower disposable income. The Minister did not 7pm comment on that. Nor did he comment on any of the examples—I am sure that this was not intended—of Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I will reflect Church of England clergy’s partners being excluded on the Minister’s response and will read and consider from the UK. He also said that the Migration Advisory his comments in Hansard. However,Ihavetosaythat Committee supported the level but my understanding at this stage I am disappointed by his response; I is that the committee was asked what the level should wonder if he took on board any of the comments be; it was not asked to comment on the proposals around the House about the devastating impact that generally or on whether this was the most appropriate this threshold is having on so many families. All of us way to achieve the Government’s objective. in your Lordships’ House understand the need to I was especially hoping that the Minister would tackle abuses—this was said to the Minister—but this respond on the following issue that I raised. The measure goes beyond that and I do not think, as other Migration Advisory Committee, in its response to noble Lords have illustrated, that it actually achieves the Government, said that, of those who satisfied the the Government’s policy objectives. current criteria of being able to show they had access The Minister said that it more effectively reduced to sufficient funds to support themselves and their the burden on the taxpayer and was fair to families. families, 45% would no longer be eligible under the Based on the examples he has heard this evening, new criteria to have their spouses come to this country. however, it does not seem a very effective way to I asked him how many of those who were eligible protect the taxpayer. The issue is not just the level of under the current procedures would not be allowed the threshold but the principle of the threshold. He under the new rules and have since claimed access to claimed that one of the questions I asked was what public funds. He has not answered that. The answer happened if somebody lost their job. That was not the that he gave was that 267 individuals now claim some question I asked at all; the point that I was putting to kind of public support or assistance, but he was unable the Minister was that a threshold is an inadequate way to tell us how many of those had come to this country of making an assessment, as someone could be above through the existing rules on family visas. If he does that threshold and then lose their job but still have the have that figure, it would be extremely helpful to have right to remain, since a judgment was made at one it. I suspect that it might not be available but it might point in time based on a person’s income, rather than have been provided to him. It would have been a more on a package of measures that was available previously. useful figure and the one that I asked for. I appreciate that he cannot comment on individual Obviously we understand the need to ensure that cases, but Mr and Mrs M, the lady from Canada and the system is not abused, but I fear that what is being her husband from Wales; the lady who was the NHS done here today will not protect the taxpayer in the care worker; and the clergymen referred to by the right way that the Minister seeks, and it certainly does not reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Edmundsbury and protect the family. I beg to withdraw the motion. Ipswich who wanted to come or bring their spouses to this country will all listen to the Minister’s comments Motion withdrawn. with some dismay. I appreciate that he was not able to answer all the questions but I was disappointed that he answered so House adjourned at 7.03 pm.

GC 1 Arrangement of Business[23 OCTOBER 2012] Official Secrets Act 1989 Order 2012 GC 2

In the City of London, the Common Council has Grand Committee the function of overseeing the City of London police Tuesday, 23 October 2012 force and its commissioner under the City of London Police Act 1839. The Common Council is headed by the Lord Mayor and is able to discharge its policing Arrangement of Business functions by means of a police committee. Police and Announcement crime commissioners, who will be elected on 15 November 2012, their deputies and the officeholders having similar 3.30 pm functions in London, will need to receive and be The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): briefed on police information in the exercise of their My Lords, it is now 3.30 pm. As is usual on these functions. This may include information on one or occasions, I must advise your Lordships that if there is more of the categories protected by the Official Secrets a Division in the House, which I am told is singularly Act 1989. They are particularly likely to be briefed on unlikely, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. information which, if disclosed, is likely to result in crime or impede the investigation or prosecution of Official Secrets Act 1989 (Prescription) crime. We also envisage that they will be briefed regularly (Amendment) Order 2012 on security and intelligence material. Considered in Grand Committee The Government are clear that they wish to maintain the operational independence of the chief constable, 3.30 pm and that he or she should be responsible to the police Moved By Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon and crime commissioner for ensuring the safe and effective maintenance of the Queen’s peace. We therefore That the Grand Committee do report to the envisage that a chief constable may on occasion need House that it has considered the Official Secrets to brief a police and crime commissioner on operational Act 1989 (Prescription) (Amendment) Order 2012. matters which may involve the disclosure to the Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint Committee commissioner of sensitive material that has been sourced on Statutory Instruments. by the police service and/or the security and intelligence agencies, such as material on counterterrorism. The Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, on behalf of degree to which the police and crime commissioner is my noble friend Lord McNally, I beg to move that the briefed on operational matters and intelligence will be Grand Committee do consider the Official Secrets at the operational discretion of the local chief constable Act 1989 (Prescription) (Amendment) Order 2012. in close consultation with the security and intelligence This order is made under the Official Secrets Act 1989. agencies where necessary. The commissioner’s role in Under that Act, it is an offence for a Crown servant or democratic accountability and transparency needs to government contractor to make a damaging disclosure be balanced against the public interest in maintaining of any information within particular categories which community safety and justice. Unauthorised disclosures is or has been in his possession by virtue of his could lead to risk to the public, damage police operations position, unless he has lawful authority to do so. and impede criminal proceedings. People who are not Crown servants can be treated as The Government consulted on how to address these such for the purposes of the Act by being designated concerns as part of our consideration in introducing in an order. They are then subject to the duties and police and crime commissioners and have concluded offences relating to the handling and disclosure of on the basis of responses that, as elected representatives, information as set out in the Official Secrets Act 1989. commissioners should not be vetted in advance. We The order does this by amending the Official Secrets consulted further and there was a consensus that Act 1989 (Prescription) Order 1990 by adding the making these officeholders subject to the duties and holders of certain offices to Schedule 2. These officeholders offences applying to police officers was a proportionate are police and crime commissioners and their deputies, safeguard. We need to maintain the trust and confidence the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime and its of the public and, of course, the police service. Bringing deputy, the Lord Mayor of the City of London and the commissioners and other officeholders under the the representative of the Court of Common Council Official Secrets Act 1989 will provide the reassurance acting in its capacity as the Police Authority for the that there is a strong deterrent to prevent unauthorised City of London. Noble Lords will know that the and damaging disclosure of sensitive information. These Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011 officeholders will be Crown servants for the purposes establishes a directly elected police and crime commissioner of the Official Secrets Act 1989 only, as are Ministers for each police area in England and Wales outside and police officers. That, of course, does not affect the London, with the functions of securing the maintenance status of commissioners and other officeholders. of an efficient and effective police force and holding The draft order is an appropriate and proportionate the chief constable to account for the exercise of the safeguard and I hope it will be acceptable to the chief constable’s functions. A commissioner is able to House. appoint a deputy. The Act also establishes in London the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime with identical functions in relation to the Metropolitan Police Service Lord Beecham: My Lords, the forthcoming elections and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis. for police commissioners may not be an official secret The person who is the Mayor of London occupies the but I can vouch for the fact that, so far as most of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime and may appoint electorate are concerned—at any rate, the ones I have a deputy. been canvassing over the last few weeks—they remain GC 3 Official Secrets Act 1989 Order 2012[LORDS] Forestry Commissioners Order 2012 GC 4

[LORD BEECHAM] Having said that, we do not object to the order and very much a secret. They are not aware that these we look forward to hearing the Government’s response elections are going to happen; maybe that will change to these points. over the next few weeks. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I thank the Certainly, so far as the Opposition are concerned, noble Lord for his support for this order. On his we have no objection to the order. Indeed, it seems concerns about the elections that are arriving on our sensible to include the bodies and persons cited within doorstep on 15 November, at least for those outside the requirements of the Official Secrets Act. Perhaps London, of course there is a concern about low voter where the Mayor of London is concerned, the Prime turnout, just as there would be in any election. It is Minister would like to take it even further, but that of incumbent on noble Lords and indeed on anyone course is not a matter for debate today. However, there involved in the political make-up of our country to is possibly an issue around vetting. In the consultation ensure that we have an effective turnout across the document reference was made to the issue of vetting. country for these most important elections. I know The response to the consultation was published as that all sides will support me on that. long ago as December 2010. I have to say that it was The noble Lord also raised a minor point about not very accessible from the site mentioned in the access to the particular sites, and the fact that it was Explanatory Memorandum today, so perhaps official not as easy as it perhaps should have been. I shall secrets have overtaken that too, but I was able to certainly be taking that up with the department. On obtain a copy from the Library. In it, the Government his final point about vetting, what has been put forward said that: we believe to be a proportionate response, but as with “A few respondents identified a need to apply to”, most things, we will keep this procedure under review police commissioners, and, if deemed necessary, we will look at it again. For “at least the same level of vetting checks applied to police now, however, what has been put forward is appropriate officers”. and proportionate. That is not an entirely candid description of the Finally, I have just been updated. As I am sure that response, as in fairness the Explanatory Memorandum the noble Lord is aware, even certain Ministers, including points out that, the Home Secretary, have not been vetted; nor has the “the Association of Chief Police Officers, Association of Police Prime Minister. However, they are subject to the Official Authorities, Association of Police Authority Chief Executives, the Superintendants’ Association and the Police Federation all Secrets Act, as are Ministers. Coming back to the issue raised concerns with regards to vetting of the proposed Police of vetting policy in general, as I said, we will keep it and Crime Commissioners”. under review. It is very much a matter for the Cabinet Those are not just five individuals. The implication of Office. If required, I shall certainly write to the noble the response to the consultation might have led one to Lord on this. believe that a handful of people had expressed concern Lord Beecham: I am grateful to the noble Lord. For about vetting, but these are serious organisations. the avoidance of doubt, I certainly join with him in Without wishing to prejudge the argument, and encouraging people to vote. I do not share the views of noting the position that the Government have now the noble Lord, Lord Blair, on this matter. Although I reached on this, will the Minister at least keep matters opposed and continue to oppose the concept, now under review? Could he assure us that if it is decided at that we have them there certainly ought to be as large a some point that vetting at some level might be required turnout as possible in the election. If there is to be in either a particular instance or more generally, there consideration—hopefully the situation might not arise— would be the capacity to institute it without further would that require further legislation of either a primary recourse to legislation? Police and crime commissioners or secondary kind to institute a procedure, or would it will not just be dealing with matters affecting their be the decision of a Minister, presumably the Home own force—of course, some of them in themselves Secretary? I would assume the latter, but it would be as may constitute crimes or suspected crimes within the well to have it on the record. ambit of national security and the like, and hence be Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I thank the noble Lord covered by the Official Secrets Act—but potentially for his question. I do not believe that there will be a they could also be involved in matters that require a need for further legislation. national response, which by implication are very likely Motion agreed. to include matters to which the Official Secrets Act would apply. In those circumstances and given the Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change potential risks—remote risks, I hope, but they arise nevertheless in areas where the magnitude of a failure Functions) (Scotland) (Consequential might have significant consequences—it might be helpful Modifications) Order 2012 for a chief constable to have the assurance that, if Considered in Grand Committee necessary and if he or she has doubts about the 3.44 pm matter, a vetting procedure might be entered into. It Moved By Lord Wallace of Tankerness may not be the case that government Ministers are thoroughly vetted, but I understand that some procedure That the Grand Committee do report to the House applies even to them. It would be strange if there were that it has considered the Forestry Commissioners not the possibility, at any rate, of inquiring further (Climate Change Functions) (Scotland) (Consequential into the elected police and crime commissioner should Modifications) Order 2012. the occasion arise, even if it is not deemed appropriate Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint to make it a matter of course on their election. Committee on Statutory Instruments. GC 5 Forestry Commissioners Order 2012[23 OCTOBER 2012] Forestry Commissioners Order 2012 GC 6

The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace settlement work. I hope the Committee will agree that of Tankerness): My Lords, I will provide the Committee this order is a sensible use of the powers in the with a brief summary of what this order seeks to Scotland Act, and that the practical outcome is something achieve. It is made under Section 104 of the Scotland to be welcomed. Act 1998, which allows for “necessary or expedient” I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to changes to UK legislation in consequence of an Act of move. the Scottish Parliament and subordinate legislation. This order is made in consequence of the Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change Functions) (Scotland) Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I thank the noble and Order 2012, made by Scottish Ministers under Section 59 learned Lord the Minister, who, as usual, has made his of the Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009. For staff available for any advice and/or assistance. I have convenience, I shall refer to this as the Section 59 a slight regret about the noble and learned Lord’s ever order. so polite attitude because, being used to another place, I sometimes like a wee bit of aggression but I am still Scottish Ministers are keen to make full use of the waiting for the Minister to show that quality. national forest estate in Scotland for generating renewable energy. The national forest estate is land owned by the Turning to the legislative context, where in Scotland Scottish Government and put at the disposal of the did the push for this come from? Although I do not Forestry Commission. While the commissioners have stay near a lot of forest, nevertheless it is quite a big powers to enter into joint ventures in Scotland for the issue in some parts of Scotland. Why was this initiative purpose of exercising their functions under the Forestry taken, and what was the background to it? The policy Act 1967, these functions do not expressly include the background mentions wind farms. That is not an development of the renewable potential of the land uncontroversial issue. I was wondering how that came put at their disposal by Scottish Ministers. about. Section 59 of the Climate Change (Scotland) Act I have always tended to suspect the reporting of 2009 enables Scottish Ministers to modify the functions consultations because it is usually in the eye of the of the forestry commissioners in or as regards Scotland beholder, who wants a particular result. What is the where this is necessary or expedient in order to comply current position on the consultation? Is it completely with their duties as regards emissions reductions or finished or are there still ramifications because people otherwise in relation to climate change. The Section 59 are making complaints or expressing their support? Is order amends the 1967 Act to place upon the forestry it still an issue? In addition, it is stated that a number commissioners a new general duty to use land placed of the concerns that were expressed have been addressed. at their disposal by Scottish Ministers in the way best Does the Minister know the specific issues that were calculated to contribute to the delivery of the targets identified and then responded to? Can he give an set under Part 1 of the Climate Change (Scotland) Act indication of how the consultation was handled? Was 2009. it just an exercise from on high or was there a definite consultation? However, the Section 59 order does not itself enable Paragraph 10 of the Explanatory Memorandum is the forestry commissioners to use the National Forest headed “Impact” and states: Estate to generate electricity. The Scottish Government have indicated that because the forestry commissioners “This instrument has no impact of a regulatory nature”, will have a duty to use land to contribute to the and goes on to say that the, delivery of climate change targets, it would be expedient “impact on the public sector is insignificant”. in consequence of this new duty for the commissioners The one thing missing from that is public opinion. If it to be able to use the national forest estate for renewable was insignificant, that is fine, but if there was a reaction, energy purposes. it would be a crucial factor. I would like to know if This Section 104 order will modify the forestry there were any expressions of public opinion. Is that commissioners’ functions under the 1967 Act in order the reason why a full impact assessment was not to confer express powers on the commissioners to use produced? the national forest estate for the purposes of generating Although paragraph 12 states that the: and supplying electricity from renewable energy projects, “Forestry Commission Scotland publishes an Annual Report thus developing the renewable energy potential of the and Accounts which is laid before the Scottish Parliament”, land put at their disposal by Scottish Ministers. Of is that the scope of the accountability? I know about course, the generating and supplying of electricity devolution, but is there any further scope for the from renewable energy projects is a reserved matter, Westminster Government to be consulted? In short, is hence the need for this order. the whole issue of accountability now devolved to the I can assure your Lordships that this Section 104 Scottish Parliament? Obviously this is a comparatively order will not affect the requirements under the Electricity minor arrangement, but never the less it is right to ask Act 1989 with regard to consents. It will not exempt questions here in your Lordships’ Chamber and thus the forestry commissioners from the requirements of subject the order to a bit of gentle scrutiny. Part 1 of that Act. This order is necessary or expedient in consequence The Earl of Mar and Kellie: My Lords, speaking as of the Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change a backwoodsman, I approve of giving explicit powers Functions) (Scotland) Order 2012 and demonstrates to one of the largest landowners in Scotland and the Government’s continued commitment to working thereby removing all the Forestry Commission land with the Scottish Government to make the devolution from the renewables area. I certainly approve of the GC 7 Forestry Commissioners Order 2012[LORDS] Forestry Commissioners Order 2012 GC 8

[THE EARL OF MAR AND KELLIE] not solely wind power. The forestry commissioners, widening of the geographic scope for renewables, especially however, made it clear that they do not intend to go as it takes the pressure off other areas that may be down the route of biomass, because that could lead to more beautiful and which are worth retaining in that a conflict of interest with their role as timber suppliers. context. The order considerably widens the already My noble friend expressed the view that it was vital broad remit of the Forestry Commission, which is that sites should be connected to the national grid. I now far wider than its remit in 1919, which was to can confirm that proposals would only go ahead if produce timber. The commission will now get involved there were grid connections. with leisure, recreation, health, landscape management, The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked about the footpaths, cycle paths, biodiversity, wood fuel and position with regard to consultation. The consultation still, indeed, the production of timber. I support all took place in relation to the 2009 legislation. It took forms of renewable energy, and especially hydro. I am place ahead of that, although part of the consultation pleased to see that two hydro schemes have already specifically related to the role of the forestry been identified. I would encourage the commissioners commissioners. The consultation document explained to have another look at small-scale hydro projects on that the provision would facilitate the development of the hill burns. I also suspect that they are bound to renewable energy potential of the land in Scotland put put up some wind turbines, or allow a partner to put at the disposal of the forestry commissioners by Scottish them up. Ministers. There were 368 responses to the specific My final point is particularly related to that. Once a question: site has been established, it is grid-connected pretty “What are your views on allowing the Forestry Commissioners much for all time. It is hoped that the generating to enter into joint ventures, with the intention of participating in technology may well improve and something other renewable energy programmes on national forest estate?”. than wind farms will come to take their place. The Seventy per cent of respondents expressed positive important point is that the sites themselves are grid- views on the option, although a number added caveats; connected. 15% expressed negative views; and the remainder appeared to be neutral or undecided. The noble Lord, Lord Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords— McAvoy, asked about some of these concerns and whether indeed they had been taken into account. I The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): can confirm that, yes, there were concerns that related My Lords, there is a problem with the sound system. to a possible conflict between the regulatory activities The Grand Committee will adjourn. of the Forestry Commission Scotland in respect of renewable developments. As a consequence, a forest 3.55 pm renewables unit has been set up; it separates the operation Sitting suspended. of the development role of the commission from its regulatory role. 4.05 pm The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, also asked why no The Deputy Chairman of Committees: My Lords, it impact assessment had been prepared for the order. is now 7.05 pm—oh! Let us try that again; it seems like The position is that orders made under the Scotland an eon. It is 4.05 pm. Perhaps now peace and quiet has Act are required to be laid in draft if, among other been resumed, the Minister would also resume. things, they vary the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament, executive competence of Scottish Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I thank my Ministers or make changes to reserve UK primary noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie and the noble Lord, legislation in consequences of Acts of the Scottish Lord McAvoy, for their contributions to this debate Parliament. Usually such orders do not in themselves and for their general welcome for the proposals. The have a direct or indirect impact, whether in benefit or noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, asked from where the cost on businesses, charities or the voluntary sector. impetus for this had come. The origins go back to the They would therefore not normally have any regulatory Climate Change (Scotland) Act 2009, which in its impact. On this occasion, a full impact assessment was generality was setting targets for carbon emissions and not produced as this instrument simply allows the the amount of electricity that can be generated from forestry commissioners to enter into voluntary joint non-fossil fuel renewable sources. The Scottish ventures with commercial partners should they wish. Government were very keen to make full use of the It does not impose on private sector or civil society renewable potential of the estate, which is operated by organisations. the forestry commissioners. Indeed my noble friend I conclude on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Mar and Kellie remarked that widening the Lord McAvoy, that wind developments tend to be geographical scope of renewable energy production controversial. I reiterate what I said in my opening perhaps takes the pressure off other parts of the remarks, that any specific proposal that is brought country, bearing in mind that the Forestry Commission’s forward will be subject, if it is 50 megawatts or over, to estate is almost 10 per cent of the Scottish land area. the regime under Section 36 of the Electricity Act My noble friend asked if there were any further 1989. If it is lower than 50 megawatts, it will be subject potential hydro locations. I am advised that the to the planning regime. Therefore this order does not commission is taking a proactive approach with developers in any way detract from the planning arrangements and communities to identify further locations. I think that are already in place. it is important to emphasise the fact that this embraces electricity generation by means of hydropower. It is Motion agreed. GC 9 Forestry Commissioners Order 2012[23 OCTOBER 2012] Cyprus GC 10

Cyprus external support, but the intrinsic wealth and prospects Question for Short Debate of the two sides are widely divergent. It would be quite reasonable to see, in the latest failure, the lack of a real 4.12 pm desire in the political machines of the north and the Asked By Lord Sharkey south to actually achieve unification. That is all very complex and distressing, but does it To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their in fact really matter? The two sides are de facto current assessment of the prospects for the reunification separate states. Does the de jure status actually matter? of Cyprus. I believe strongly that it matters very much indeed. It matters to the people of Cyprus, it matters to the The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Geddes): people of the eastern Mediterranean, and it matters to My Lords, before the clerk calls the noble Lord, Lord Britain. The eastern Mediterranean is now more troubled Sharkey, I remind Members of the Committee that and unstable than at any time in the last decade. We this is a one-hour debate and contributions from Back- have a civil war in Syria, enormous tension between Benchers are therefore limited to three minutes. Hopefully, Iran and Israel and unresolved situations in Libya and the Clock will be working. The last time I chaired Egypt. Now, added to all that, there are the problems Grand Committee it was not, and we all had to add up raised by the huge gas finds in Cypriot territorial on our fingers and toes. I think that today it is working. waters. Exactly who that gas belongs to and in what Lord Sharkey: My Lords, I start today’s debate by quantities, how to develop the fields and how to congratulating my noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece on transport the gas, are all questions that, if unresolved, the recent award by Coventry University of an honorary are highly likely to add severely to the political tensions. doctorate, partly in recognition of her contribution to It would be absurd and tragic if the division of the the Cyprus peace process. I also thank the House of island effectively prevented any exploitation of those Lords Library for its very helpful and comprehensive gas fields, yet that is exactly what a senior energy briefing pack. It is clear from even a quick scan of this industry executive has predicted to me privately. document that the prospects for the reunification of But there is a clear positive side to the existence of the island can seem quite remote and the issues involved those fields, quite apart from their potential for the quite intractable. economy of the island. Over the summer, it seems to The current dispute is now over 40 years old. Over have given fresh energy to those seeking renegotiation. those 40 years there have been many serious attempts In September, Alexander Downer said that the Greek by people of good will from both sides of the island and Turkish sides now had a strong economic reason and from outside organisations to bring about a resolution. to agree to a reunification that would reduce the All those attempts have failed and all had one very sovereign risk of investing in Cyprus, clear up the significant factor in common—they all used, as you problems of investing in property, grow GDP and might expect, the political machinery of the island as offer the capacity to service and pay off debt. The the primary, if not the sole, mechanism for negotiation. British Foreign Secretary made the same point when Perhaps repeated failure of essentially the same process, he said recently in Nicosia: albeit with different actors, should come as no surprise. “We have supported the rights of Cyprus to develop resources However, at some point those involved have to address but I hope that doing so can somehow be an incentive for the the obvious question of whether it really makes sense settlement of the problem, rather than a disincentive”. to do the same thing over and over again and expect All that is good news. It is a sign that the parties something different to happen. may understand that there is a new and compelling It is fairly easy to see why the prospects for success reason to negotiate. However, it does not address the may now seem remote. Earlier this year, the UN failure of the traditional methods of negotiation. The admitted that talks were deadlocked and saw no immediate UN Secretary-General’s report of March this year way ahead. The Republic of Cyprus’s assumption of notes that: the EU presidency has had an obviously chilling effect “Civil society also has a crucial role to play in building public on dialogue. Research conducted in July shows that confidence in the process. Unfortunately, civil society organizations, and women’s groups in particular, remain outside the framework over 70% of both communities now feel that they of the negotiations. I therefore call on the sides to step up their should assert their own rights even if it means members engagement with civil society and women’s groups, with a view to of the other community would be negatively affected. building public confidence in the benefits of a settlement”. The same survey revealed that only 14% of Turkish Most involved countries and supranational institutions Cypriots and 39% of Greek Cypriots would prefer a and many commentators have recognised the force of feasible solution now to an optimal solution some that. James Ker-Lindsay of the LSE, writing in May time in the future. Perhaps this is not very surprising. this year, concluded that: As the International Crisis Group pointed out as long “Having comprehensively exhausted the elite focused approach ago as 2009, there appears to be a growing younger to conflict resolution in Cyprus, it does seem time to radically generation on both sides of the island who have never rethink the ways in which we try to resolve the Cyprus Problem … interacted with each other and see no reason to do so. a truly Cypriot-led process needs to be far more inclusive than has They do not have a stake in the property issue and may hitherto been the case … the case for involving civil society in any not wish to face the uncertainties and potential problems future effort to resolve the Cyprus issue is certainly compelling. that a settlement neither side likes, but accepts, would After all, everything else has been tried—and failed”. create. There are additional factors that give weight to The Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had this to the ICG’s comments. The economies of both the say on the subject in its report of March this year: north and the south are fragile and both rely on “We … recommend that if this effort fails”— GC 11 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus GC 12

[LORD SHARKEY] states that taking part is a human right without referring to the then current round of negotiations, discrimination of any kind. I cannot believe that Britain, which did fail— as a guarantor, can stand by while people whose only “and there is still no settlement on Cyprus once Cyprus’s period fault is that they live in the wrong part of Cyprus are as President of the EU Council is completed … the Government treated in this way. It seems that only the reunification should consider whether any alternative approach to the Cyprus of the island will end this suffering. I long to hear that situation, by itself and the international community, might be my own Government fully appreciate and understand more likely than previous efforts to yield a settlement”. the unfairness and suffering that is going on, and will Fortunately, some organisations have believed in seek again to end it. that approach for some years and have made substantial funds available to help encourage the development and inclusion of civil society. That financial help is 4.22 pm absolutely critical. As INTRAC noted last year in its Lord Harrison: My Lords, the European Union was extensive briefing paper on the subject, key challenges recently awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and I hope are sustainability and funding, staffing and maintaining that the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, will CSO networks. Funding is absolutely the key issue. If congratulate the European Union on achieving the we believe that the involvement of civil society can aim of providing peace in Europe over the past 60 to advance reunification, then money needs to be found. 70 years. But one big failure has been the inclusion of In 2009, the EEA awarded ¤1.5 million in grants to Cyprus in the Union when peace has not been secured civil society projects in Cyprus. In June this year the on the island. My sympathy for Northern Cyprus was EU approved funding of ¤26.5 million to the Turkish increased when I learnt that it had agreed to the community with the goal of promoting confidence- Annan plan but southern Cyprus had not. I can assure building and reconciliation between the two parts of the Minister that the European Union Select Committee, the divided island. Beneficiaries of the new funding which is currently writing a report on enlargement, will include civil society organisations. will ensure that never again will anyone come into the But what is Britain’s contribution to the encouragement European Union represented by a divided nation. of civil society in Cyprus? On 11 June this year in a I have had the benefit of twice visiting Turkish Written Question, I asked Her Majesty’s Government, Northern Cyprus. At the moment, the EU presidency “which bi-zonal or bi-communal civil society organisations or is held by southern Cyprus. A missed opportunity projects in Cyprus they currently support”. there was the chance for the two sides to work together This was the Answer: both informally and formally to welcome the other “We welcome bi-communal work in Cyprus, which is an countries of Europe. Can the Minister say what help important way of preparing the ground ahead of a settlement by the United Kingdom has given to the presidency—it is building trust between the two communities. The UK supports the first presidency to be held by Cyprus—in these directly the Committee on Missing Persons through both financial very difficult times? I hope that we have given donations and by providing its accommodation. In the past 24 months, our High Commission has hosted the Stelios award administrative help and advice. Perhaps I can press for successful bi-communal businesses”.—[Official Report, 11/6/12; her to take other opportunities after the six-month col. WA 156.] presidency expires to try to deal with some of the That does not seem to be a lot and it does not seem to other outstanding problems, not the least of which is take civil society very seriously. It does not measure up that we are still not allowed to operate direct flights to our history or our obligations in Cyprus. I hope from the United Kingdom to Northern Cyprus. Under very much that today the Minister will tell us about a the Bologna process the vibrant universities of Northern much greater effort and much greater funding. After Cyprus are still excluded from exchanging and learning all, a lot is at stake here. I look forward to hearing the from other universities around the whole of the European contributions of all noble Lords on this matter. Union. Like the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, I have seen NGOs, civil society and particularly the business 4.20 pm community come together on the island of Cyprus. Baroness Knight of Collingtree: My Lords, I declare These could use opportunities such as gas exploration an interest as the current chairman of the all-party to help revive the island of Cyprus, which is experiencing group for Northern Cyprus. I congratulate my noble some real financial problems on both sides of the friend Lord Sharkey for securing this brief debate. For dividing line. years, Northern Cyprus has been treated unfairly, and If it is the case, as we have learned, that Turkey is even spitefully, by Greek Cypriots. Considering that now Greece’s number two trading partner—if their Britain is a guarantor, I believe that we have failed in two presences are beginning to come together in the our duty to the north to get things right. These people economic sphere—it should also be the case for Northern really do not deserve to bear the suffering and hardship Cyprus. Will the Government make a new initiative to that is inflicted on them—and many of us have seen it help out and resolve this issue? for ourselves. In my three minutes, I shall deal with the case of 4.26 pm Meliz Redif, a Turkish Cypriot athlete who sought to compete in the Olympics. She had every right to do so, Baroness Hussein-Ece: My Lords, I declare an interest but she was not allowed to unless she changed her as the secretary of the All-Party Parliamentary Group nationality, lied, denied her own country and claimed on Cyprus. I thank my noble friend Lord Sharkey for to be from Turkey. The Olympic charter specifically securing this debate. I have spoken many times over GC 13 Cyprus[23 OCTOBER 2012] Cyprus GC 14 many hours on Cyprus, but I have never had to do it in here in London or in Cyprus, about the peace process, three minutes, so I hope that I will get in the key points the response is likely to be the same: complete apathy I wanted to raise today. and resignation. Can we please see efforts from Her As has been mentioned, the UN peacekeeping forces Majesty’s Government and the EU to change this? have been in Cyprus since 1964—48 years later they are still there. The problems did not start in 1974, as 4.29 pm we so often hear, and like so many others of a Cypriot Lord Kilclooney: My Lords, this debate, introduced heritage—in my case, Turkish-Cypriot—my family have by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, asks the Government been directly affected by decades of unrest, conflict what their current assessment is of the prospects for and loss. All Greek and Turkish Cypriots have suffered. the reunification of Cyprus. I am sorry to say that my There are victims on all sides. opinion is that they are nil and I shall explain why. I Following the failure of the biggest opportunity, have been to Cyprus for every one of the past 50 years the 2004 Annan peace plan, and the ensuing failed and I am also a regular attendee of the Anglican referendum, many of us were hugely disappointed church in Kyrenia. I well remember 1975, after the when Greek Cypriots voted overwhelmingly no and coup d’état, when the collection plate went around in Turkish Cypriots voted emphatically yes. This no vote the church and we were told, “British pounds or cemented the status quo. In 2004 a categorical promise Greek Cypriot pounds but no Turkish lira”. Unfortunately, was given to Turkish Cypriots by the EU to lift and that was the attitude at that time. alleviate isolation. What representations have the UK In 1963, the Turkish Cypriots were driven out of Government made to honour these promises? the partnership state of Cyprus. In 1974, there was a coup d’etat by the Athens-inspired Government, bringing The recent efforts of the United Nations towards in the former EOKA leader, Sampson, as the president. Cypriot-led talks have failed and I believe they have In 1975, I was there when, only a few months later, the retrenched divisions. Both the UK and, in my view, the Turkish Federated State of Cyprus was created, which EU have hidden behind the United Nations and are in subsequently in 1983 became the Turkish Republic of danger of contracting out any responsibility to help Northern Cyprus. We are now celebrating the 29th and support new ways towards a solution. Disappointingly, anniversary of peace since the TRNC was created. lobbying by some here in the UK has become a campaign to preserve the status quo. I must stress that In 2004, a peace agreement was proposed by the the groups doing this are a minority, but a vocal United Nations. The Turkish Cypriots voted for it, but minority, adept at lobbying parliamentarians who often the Greek Cypriots rejected the peace agreement. What lack background knowledge and experience of Cyprus, was their reward? The European Union immediately and simply listen to the loudest voices and form their appointed the Greek Cypriots as a member state, views after a few days visiting some parts of the island. which was a disastrous decision yet again by the EU. It This is not helpful, and only seeks to polarise opinion was not the first one it has made but this was a very and reinforce divisions. bad decision. It means that the Greek Cypriots no longer have any incentive whatever to reach agreement I believe that the United Kingdom, as one of the within the island of Cyprus. guarantor powers, has a responsibility to be more There are three jurisdictions in Cyprus: the Greek proactive and an honest broker. Neither Greek nor Cypriot jurisdiction, known as the Cyprus Government; Turkish Cypriots can fulfil their potential on an island the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus; and, of whose future is so unequal, divided, uncertain, militarised course, there are United Kingdom sovereign bases. and facing new economic difficulties—and, as we have Therefore, we must have talks. As one who took part heard from the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, educational in the Belfast agreement settlement, I know the importance difficulties as well. Are we really saying that Turkish of talks. But those talks must not be under the auspices Cypriots should be denied recognised qualifications of the European Union in any way. It is biased in every until there is a peace plan at some point? I do not respect: Greece is a member, Greek Cyprus is a member think so. and there is a background of accepting Greek Cyprus I believe strongly in the need to unblock the situation even though it voted against the Annan agreement. on the island and engage civil society, as so eloquently What is the way forward? We can have unity with mentioned by my noble friend Lord Sharkey. Both Turkey; we can have independence for the Turkish Greek and Turkish-Cypriot NGOs argue that by focusing Republic of Northern Cyprus; or we can have a bizonal solely on the talks at the leadership level, we are losing agreement. Unity with Turkey is already taking place— out on real opportunities. The UN formula of two they have the same religion, the same currency and men—and I am afraid that it is always men—locked in free trade. Unity is on its way. I do not think that that a room, disengaged from their respective communities, is the answer and we have to try to do something to until they agree on all points, has not worked. stop it. I find independence of the TRNC diplomatically In the north, there is a new civil society movement, impossible to accept. spearheaded by Dr Kudret Özersay, the former UN chief negotiator, called Toparlaniyoruz, which in Turkish Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, the three roughly means, “We are pulling ourselves together” or minutes is up. “We are getting our act together”. I call on the Government here to get their act together a bit more Lord Kilclooney: You do not want to hear any more. and support NGOs, civil society and organisations I have some questions for the Government. First, will working on the ground to bring far more peace, equality they investigate how Cyprus, as present president of and dialogue. If you ask any Greek or Turkish Cypriots, the European Council, employing 700 people in Brussels, GC 15 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus GC 16

[LORD KILCLOONEY] 4.38 pm employs only one Turkish Cypriot? Is that fair play? Let us hear the answer to that. Why has that not been Lord Northbrook: My Lords, as a relative newcomer raised by the United Kingdom Government? Secondly, to the Cyprus question and as a member of the why does our sovereign base in southern Cyprus, in all-party Northern Cyprus group, I have listened to Akrotiri, refuse to issue any statements or contact the many experts speaking in that group and here today. press in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus? The recent Congressional Research Service paper entitled, optimistically, Cyprus: Reunification Proving Elusive, 4.34 pm reiterates that roughly 18% of the population are of Turkish origin, so any settlement must take fair account The Lord Bishop of Guildford: My Lords, I declare of this representation. The Treaty of Guarantee of an interest as a vice-president of the Conference of 1960 promised the Turkish population security, which European Churches, of which the autocephalous was in danger of being breached by a more hard-line Orthodox Church of Cyprus is a member. president in Greece, who was encouraging union of First, I will offer a personal reminiscence. Way back the island with Greece. Hence, there was the need for during the summer of 1974, I was preparing myself to Turkey to invade in 1974 to protect their minority on take up a post at Lambeth Palace in the then international the island. affairs department. The breaking news of course that I can understand more clearly the history of summer was the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in response negotiations since the 2002 Annan plan. The best to the provocative tactics, already mentioned, of the chances of reunification appeared to be the Christofias- Greek-speaking south, instigated by Athens. There Talat negotiations between 2008 and 2010. However, the division of Cyprus seems to have remained. I am since Mr Eroglu came to power, relations between the not unaware of the significant local and international two sides seem to have become much more difficult. attempts at reconciliation, which we have heard, and President Christofias comes out with little credit and it we know, have had no success so far. remains to be seen what the attitude of his successor The points I want to make are simple. First, before will be after the election in 2013. the intervention and its provocation, there were many villages and communities where there was a well With regards to the issues, the paper makes clear documented positive relationship between the local why negotiations have been so difficult. First, there is communities. The partition and then the movement of the very basic issue of how a new united Cyprus would populations have made that much more difficult and, be created. The Greek Cypriots assume it would be indeed, in most places locally impossible. Yet there evolved from the existing Republic of Cyprus. The were places where the two religious communities, Greek Turkish Cypriot view, which I have much more sympathy Orthodox and Muslim, in part shared, in a local way, for, is that the new state would be based on two equal each other’s local feasts and festivals. Some restoration founding states. Mr Eroglu has hinted that he is not of this local community respect and mutual celebration prepared to give up the Turkish Republic of Northern needs to be considered, alongside political initiatives. Cyprus or its flag. Disagreement has also continued That is very much alongside what the noble Lord, over the process for appointing the president and Lord Sharkey, said in terms of civil society. vice-president. The second point is about the UN and the Green The next very difficult area is the thorny issue Line. The softening of the Green Line in part in latter of property. Since 1974, it is estimated that over years is, of course, welcome—it is easy for tourists. 150,000 Greek Cypriots living in the north have been This needs to be further encouraged in terms of the forced south, and close to 50,000 Turkish Cypriots ability of the local communities. Some time ago, I living in the south have fled to the north, with both spent some time on the Green Line with the British communities leaving massive amounts of vacated Army chaplains seconded to the UN force. I could go property. The establishment of the Immovable Property across either side at will because I have a UN pass and Commission—the IPC—to hear cases related to Greek privilege to do that. The local communities need to be Cypriot property in the north was a positive step. It is enabled to do that again too. interesting to note that a few private Greek property Thirdly and finally, in Turkey there are reasonable owners have filed claims for compensation. As in past and constructive religious relations and dialogue, at negotiations, the gap in the respective Cypriot positions least at the level of the Ecumenical Patriarch and the had been great and appears to remain so. Muslim leaders in Istanbul and elsewhere. Obviously Then there is the by no means small issue of overall that does not apply to more extreme groups, but there territory that would come under the jurisdiction of the are external ecumenical bodies, such as the Conference two equal states. The Turkish Cypriot side of the of European Churches and the World Council of Green Line includes approximately 37% of the island Churches that might in part, alongside a reengagement and includes several areas that had been almost 100% of civil society, be constructive instruments of Greek Cypriot-inhabited before the 1974 division. Greek reconciliation. In a taxi on the way here this afternoon, Cypriots want that territory returned, which would I noticed an advertisement for North Cyprus as a leave the Turkish Cypriot side controlling about 29% unique Mediterranean experience—“beautiful North of the territory. Next to the property issue, the issue of Cyprus”. I encourage everybody and Her Majesty’s security guarantees continues to be one of the most Government to do all we possibly can to make that difficult bridges to cross. At the end of all this, I feel experience even more beautiful in terms of the that the only way forward will be to involve civil reconciliation of communities, in spite of all the society more, but I fear that formalised partition may international road blocks so far. be a possibility. GC 17 Cyprus[23 OCTOBER 2012] Cyprus GC 18

4.42 pm thoughts. There is currently a proposal to expand the port of Limassol and no doubt an EU grant will be Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, the recent sought to do the work. However, as an alternative, real reports contained in the helpful Library pack make consideration should be given to developing the port gloomy reading for those of us who strongly favour of Famagusta. There is a viable option that would see the reunification of this beautiful island. The it operating under the auspices of the European Union Congressional Research Service report ended by asking and open to all trade. The economic benefits would be whether unification can be achieved at all, with the significant and it could help unlock the ban on Greek- increasing possibility of a permanent separation; a Cypriot trade using Turkish ports. view shared, for example, by Jack Straw. Historians may look back and see the events of 2004, 2008 and Secondly, the EU must turn its attention to meeting 2010, with the good relationship between President the commitment it made to introduce the direct trade Christofias and Mr Talat, as failed opportunities, leading regulations that will free up businesses in the north to possibly to an ultimate separation. trade directly with EU countries. The Turkish Cypriot Chamber of Commerce told me two years ago that Does the Minister see any signs of hope in the direct trade would go a long way to bridging the current position, for example on the apportionment of economic gap with the Republic of Cyprus. At the resources from the recently discovered gas fields? On very least, the EU should ensure that barriers are not demography, is it her understanding that many—some placed on the transit of goods from north to south say up to 50,000—Turkish settlers have returned to the under the Green Line regulations. booming economy of the mainland? Will the election in February 2013 of Mr Anastasiadis of DISY, who Thirdly, regional agreement needs to be reached on voted yes in the referendum, have a positive effect? the development of the offshore gas resources. Currently, Does the Minister agree that the key to any possible the Republic will struggle to develop the fields because settlement still lies in Ankara, which, after the EU of the political uncertainty, and because the cost of dimension, has less incentive to press for an agreement? liquefying the gas and sending it by sea is unlikely to be economically viable. On the other hand, a gas Surely the grim reality is that there seems to be pipeline through Turkey is a completely different matter. insufficient political will to make progress. There is News came from Ankara last week that work has currently a sense of drift, with both sides, particularly started on a water pipeline from Turkey to Northern the younger generation, becoming used to the status Cyprus, to which an electricity pipe will be added. quo of a divided island. The lack of confidence has Either the EU or the UN should act as a broker for a been increased by recent border provocations. In classical deal that develops these new infrastructures for the Greek drama, when there was no clear ending, a “deus benefit of the whole island. ex machina” was brought on to the stage. Alas, there appear to be none on the horizon, save, perhaps, the Finally, we should build on the work that has been greater involvement of civil society as mentioned by carried out by the UN and EU to build civic society the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. The beautiful island of and foster links between the communities. Strengthening Aphrodite slides towards greater separation all because these communities, and creating cultural and sporting of a lack of trust on both sides and a continued failure links on both sides, across the border and internationally, to make progress on the core issues such as property would over time help to change the terms of the and territory. Can the Minister cheer us by signalling debate on the future of Cyprus. any windows of opportunity? 4.47 pm Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I am grateful 4.44 pm to the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, for raising an issue Baroness Scott of Needham Market: My Lords, in that has preoccupied me for more than 25 years. 2014 it will be 50 years since United Nations troops Rather than repeat what I and others have articulated started peacekeeping in Cyprus. Despite their best in support of the human rights of Turkish Cypriots efforts, not only has there been a lack of progress but over that period, I want to try, in these few moments resolution is further away than it has ever been, as available to me, to examine the role and responsibility public attitudes harden and the economic disparities of the United Kingdom in the context of the 1960 increase. The international view is that this is entirely a Treaty of Guarantee, where we were, and still are, one matter for Cyprus. Indeed, the main victims of this of the three guarantor powers. failure of political leadership are the Cypriot people. Sadly, I have observed over my 30 years in Parliament We owe it to them to think about whether it is time to the extent to which successive UK Governments have approach this differently. There is also a much wider allowed themselves to delegate authority to the United set of strategic issues that make progress imperative. Nations, to the United States and, worst of all, to the There is the whole question of Turkey’s membership European Union—to an extent where Ministers are of the EU and what that means for where Turkey sees no longer in a position to state a government position its future alliances, and the growing instability in the but merely seek to interpret extraneous influences that eastern Mediterranean and how Cyprus plays into are used to excuse their own political impotence. that, particularly since the discovery of offshore gas. It is, at the time when we ponder 50 years of BBC Of course, the solution cannot be forced on anyone moral ineptitude, not inappropriate to remember the and nor can you make people undertake fruitful not dissimilar behavioural vulnerability the United negotiations. However, I believe it is possible to change Kingdom exploited in order to force Archbishop Makarios some facts on the ground, and here are a few possible into an agreement that was never going to work, had GC 19 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus GC 20

[LORD MAGINNIS OF DRUMGLASS] power in trying to promote reconciliation on the island? no historical precedent and abandoned Turkish Cypriots Given our history, we have a special responsibility and to a form of ethnic cleansing that was virtually overlooked we should exercise it. until we encountered the later events in the Yugoslav More than that, I have always thought that the or Balkan wars 20 years ago. solution to the Cyprus problem was part of a wider Our culpability was that as a guarantor power we solution to the relations between Greece and Turkey, abdicated to the United Nations, which, not for the and the whole situation in the eastern Mediterranean. last time, stood by while innocent women and children It is very important that, as committed members of were slaughtered by terrorists like Nikos Sampson and the EU, we are trying to proceed with Turkish membership. EOKA-B. Thank God Turkey, albeit 10 years too late, That is what will give us quite a lot of leverage in order intervened in 1974. That was 38 years ago and our to get a solution to this problem. feeble reaction to this period has been to isolate the In terms of Greece and Cyprus, and the economic victims and to embargo their rights to their identity, difficulties that Greece is presently in, if things go their travel, their businesses and their educational wrong there, this will make the situation in that part of opportunities. What arrogance and what injustice. Still, the world much worse. We have to exercise our best after two generations we merely subscribe to an unrealistic endeavours to make sure that we do not have an United Nations premise, which was contrived in panic economic collapse that leads to a return to extreme in 1963. We seek to perpetuate a failed process—the nationalism in that part of the world. I fear for the Annan plan—which was voted down at the 11th hour consequences were that to happen. We look forward by Greek Cypriots when, to our shame, we cravenly very much to hearing the reply of the noble Baroness, abandoned every conditional promise that we had Lady Warsi, to this excellent debate. made to the Turkish Cypriots who accepted it. Time beats me but I conclude with this challenge. I ask the Minister to show me a single episode in this 4.55 pm sad 50-year tragedy that brings credit to the United The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Kingdom. Is the Minister aware that this and the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth previous Government do not even have the courage to Office (Baroness Warsi): My Lords, I am grateful for turn up on 11 November each year to show respect at the opportunity to respond for the Government to this the memorial in Girne, Kyrenia, to the 371 of our debate brought by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey. I soldiers who died during the Cyprus emergency between start by endorsing his words of congratulation to my 1956 and 1959? I ask the Minister: when will this noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece. Government find adequate time to fully debate the The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, quite usefully laid Cyprus issue and contribute positively towards a plan out how the previous Government dealt with some of that has some modicum of humanity and circumspection, these challenges, and once again I am reminded of the in contrast to our past ineptitude? great experience and expertise in this House on foreign relations and Foreign Office matters. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, missed me yesterday at Oral Questions, but I am sure that he will agree that 4.51 pm campaigning for re-election to the Human Rights Lord Liddle: My Lords, we should thank the noble Council in Geneva was as important. Lord, Lord Sharkey, for posing this Question, which Cyprus has been too long divided, as I am sure all allows us to have this debate. Many noble Lords have Cypriots and friends of Cyprus would agree. The spoken with great passion about the intractable problems current round of settlement negotiations, under way and multiple injustices of the island of Cyprus. The since September 2008, unfortunately is in hiatus. The Government should listen hard to what has been said. United Nations is doing what it can to move the For my part, the Cyprus issue is a 21st-century equivalent process along in the absence of political-level meetings. of what Lord Palmerston quipped about the Schleswig- It is focusing on the work of the technical committees, Holstein question: “Only three people understood it; trying to make them more productive and focusing on the prince consort who is dead; the German professor practical co-operation. Alexander Downer, the UN who is mad; and me, who has forgotten all about it.”. I Secretary-General’s special adviser on Cyprus, believes am afraid that this issue is of such complexity that that there has been some success. thatiswhatitislike. The Greek Cypriots continue to express willingness When Labour was in government and I was in No. to continue talks, but not constrained by a timeframe. 10, we tried to resolve this complexity by sending for The Turkish Cypriots say that they want to continue the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, who tried to negotiate a talks but wish for a timetable that would include a deal. Indeed, he made quite a lot of progress and it is a deadline for a multilateral conference in order to create great pity he is not here to bring his wisdom to this the environment for give and take, which they say is debate. necessary to address the internal aspects of the Our options are limited. What happened in 2004 negotiations. The leaders of the two communities have was a tragedy but we were acting under a threat of not met since March this year and it seems unlikely Greece vetoing the major enlargement of the European that any such meeting will take place until after the Union and one had to make a realpolitik choice in presidential elections next February. truth about what was the best thing to do, which was Her Majesty’s Government continue to take a keen very difficult. What can be done now? What does the interest in the situation in Cyprus. We are very aware Minister think that we can do, as Britain, as a guarantor of our role as a guarantor power, but we must not lose GC 21 Cyprus[23 OCTOBER 2012] Cyprus GC 22 sight of the fact that this is a process by Cypriots for south, the two communities were able to come to an Cypriots, and that it is for the leaders of the two agreement which saw the north of the island communities, whoever they may be, to work constructively supplementing the electricity supply for the south. together to deliver a new future for Cyprus. We will This mirrors the arrangements made in 2006 when the continue to support this process and to encourage all Government of Cyprus agreed to supply the north who have a role to play to seize the opportunity of a with electricity after an explosion in the main power new political era to find a solution to this long-running plant. That type of co-operation and practical assistance human tragedy. shows that it is possible to move forward from the As a guarantor power, the UK has undertaken by difficulties of the past. treaty to prohibit, The noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, referred “any activity aimed at promoting directly or indirectly, either to the recent gas finds. The UK is optimistic that union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island”. efforts to achieve a settlement will eventually be successful. A settlement will bring long-term stability, peace and The gas finds and the presidential elections next February security for all the people of a united island within the are a part of this. In this difficult and long-lasting European Union, supporting the prosperity of all situation, my noble friend Lord Sharkey is absolutely Cypriots and ending the isolation of those who live in right to say that civil society within and between the the north of the island. More widely, it will create an two communities has an important role to play in arc of greater stability from the Aegean to the eastern developing the key missing ingredient, that of trust. Mediterranean by removing the major impediment to Civil society can reach out to those beyond the bounds good relations between Cyprus, Turkey and Greece. of politics to establish practical working relationships and foster co-operation that will lay down the grounds Only through a fair and lasting settlement can we for a long-term improvement in relations. ensure that all the people on the island are the beneficiaries of a fair and sustainable future and that the EU acquis Perhaps I may give some real examples of where can be extended to the whole island. It would deliver civil society contacts and initiatives are working. Over significant economic benefits for both communities, the past five years, our high commissioner has worked opening up greater opportunities for regional trade closely with Sir Stelios Haji-Ioannou’s Stelios and investment. Reunification would also provide the Philanthropic Foundation to encourage bicommunal space for civil society to flourish and for leaders to business. It also directly supports the bicommunal look outwards, spending time on the global issues that Committee on Missing Persons through financial and confront us all, such as climate change and energy practical support. This important committee is working security. on one of the most difficult and distressing aspects of the whole situation, seeking to identify bodies and Living on a divided island cannot be a situation find resolution for families who do not know what that any Cypriot would want to continue without a happened to their loved ones. There are also important long-term solution. Ordinary citizens cannot move locally driven initiatives looking at best practice and around the island as noble Lords would move around learning lessons from other long-running, complex the UK, and this was raised today in the debate. There intercommunal conflicts, such as those in Northern are checks on persons as they cross the Green Line Ireland and South Africa. Valuable efforts are also that divides the two communities, and checks on the being made to bring the two communities together movement of goods have an inevitable negative impact that include school children. on the prosperity of the island as a whole. The division of the island has resulted in the dislocation of ordinary Cypriot families, and the resulting disputes Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I just want to point about the ownership of property continue to impact out that the Minister is in error when she compares on people today. Many Cypriots born after 1974 do Northern Ireland or South Africa where the language not know anyone from the other community. Where is the same, the people live side by side, and they have there is no contact there can be no understanding, and not been deliberately divided for almost 50 years. negative stereotypes tend to dominate the image each community has of the other. Baroness Warsi: I take the noble Lord’s point, but My noble friend Lady Hussein-Ece raised some there are lessons that can be learnt. The FCO funds a valid points about views on the issue not being fully small number of projects to support this. informed. She always speaks with great passion and I agree that more could be done, and I turn to the expertise and expresses very personally the frustration specific point raised by the right reverend Prelate the felt by so many in Cyprus. My noble friend also asked Bishop of Guildford on bringing together religious specifically what the UK is doing in relation to alleviating communities in order to foster reconciliation. The UK the isolation of Turkish Cypriots. The UK is in contact would support any efforts made to encourage the with many civil society groups in Northern Cyprus. It coming together of the Muslim and Greek Orthodox supports the direct trade regulation blocked in the EU communities on the island. The right reverend Prelate and is working to support a comprehensive settlement is aware of the work I support in relation to inter-faith as ultimately the most effective way of ending the understanding. isolation of Turkish Cypriots. My noble friend Lady Knight spoke of the important There are some positive signs and it is important case of Meliz Redif. Her Majesty’s Government do that we do not lose sight of them. Following the not recognise the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus dreadful explosion in July last year which killed 12 people and so we were unable to make representations to the and knocked out the main electricity plant in the International Olympic Committee about the inclusion GC 23 Cyprus[LORDS] Housing: Park Homes GC 24

[BARONESS WARSI] to the leaders of the two communities, who ultimately of Northern Cyprus as a participant country in the are responsible for working together to deliver a package Olympic Games. Turkish Cypriots are able to compete that the Cypriot people can believe in and which will under the Cypriot flag, but I am afraid that I must secure the future for the reunited island, so that her presume that that is not the answer my noble friend people can live together in peace. wished to hear. Until that future is secured, we hope, through the The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, asked what help work of the technical committees, confidence-building could be offered through the Cypriot presidency of measures and grass-roots initiatives such as the Stelios the European Union. The Government have provided award for business co-operation, that the everyday support through practical assistance, including the lives of Cypriots can be improved and, in parallel, that provision of secondees across government. The noble trust between the two communities can regrow. It is Lord, Lord Kilclooney, raised the issue of the employment only through building such trust that a stable and of Turkish Cypriots in Brussels. Who is employed has prosperous future for all Cypriots can be assured. I am to be a matter for the Republic of Cyprus. However, sure that I have not answered all questions raised by the British high commission employs staff from both noble Lords— communities. Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I wish the Minister Lord Kilclooney: I was not talking about the British well in her new position in Government. However, it is high commission. I was talking about the so-called a huge disappointment when we get a response to a Cyprus Government, the Greek Cypriot Administration, debate that has been pre-prepared and does not answer which totally discriminates against Turkish Cypriots a single question that has been raised. I would have in Brussels. The United Kingdom is a guarantor power. thought that, at a time when the Prime Minister is Are we doing nothing, as a guarantor power, to exercise talking about remembering the sacrifices of 1914, she our powers in respect of fair employment by the might at least have had the initiative to address the Cyprus Government? matter I raised about 371 of our soldiers who died during the Cyprus emergency. I am disappointed that Baroness Warsi: The specific question that the noble she has failed to do so. Lord asked was in relation to employment in Brussels. We, of course, only have a say in relation to the people Baroness Warsi: I was about to say in conclusion that we employ at the British high commission. It is that I am sure I have not answered all the matters and therefore important to stress that we employ staff questions that have been raised by noble Lords in an from both communities. The high commission hour’s debate on such an important issue, about which represents— there is so much expertise in this House. I can assure noble Lords, including the noble Lord, that I will Lord Kilclooney: Is the Minister saying that the respond to them in writing on any specific questions United Kingdom is washing its hands of its position that have not been answered today. as a guarantor power for Cyprus? 5.10 pm Baroness Warsi: No, my Lords, the British Government are not saying that. I must move on as a number of Sitting suspended. matters were raised by noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, raised the issue of the Immovable Property Commission. We support that commission Housing: Park Homes and agree that property is one of the key and most Question for Short Debate complex areas for any final settlement. My noble friend Lady Scott raised the issue of 5.12 pm direct trade for Turkish Cypriots. The UK is committed Asked By Baroness Scott of Needham Market to liberalisation of trade with the Turkish Cypriot community but the relevant draft EU regulation is To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they being blocked at the moment by the Republic of intend to undertake legislative and policy changes Cyprus. to the park homes sector as a result of their recent Many of the issues surrounding any debate on consultation exercise. Cyprus are understandably difficult and emotive. The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, outlined some of these, Baroness Scott of Needham Market: My Lords, I including issues such as the fate of missing persons am very pleased to have secured this slot for a Short and the loss of one’s home, things that thankfully Debate on the problems facing the park homes sector. most of us will never have to face. Those who lived There has been a flurry of activity in the past couple through the events in Cyprus’s turbulent past, and of years. The Government have concluded their their children and grandchildren, are now living with consultation on the future regulation of the sector; the the legacy of those events. It is absolutely right that we Communities and Local Government Select Committee do not forget the past and that we acknowledge the carried out a full inquiry and produced an excellent pain suffered by the ordinary people of Cyprus, but report; my Suffolk colleague from the House of Commons, we must also look to the future and continue to have Peter Aldous, has sponsored a Private Member’s Bill faith in the UN-led settlement process. We must look on it, which had its Second Reading on Friday; and just GC 25 Housing: Park Homes[23 OCTOBER 2012] Housing: Park Homes GC 26 last week Consumer Focus published its report into for gas and electricity. Many charge what home owners the sector, called Living the Dream?—with an all-important regard as excessive fees for site maintenance that is question mark. I am really pleased that such a well often not done at all. respected independent body has carried out research It is the growing evidence of serious criminality into park homes because their work has confirmed within the sector that gives most cause for concern. I what we knew from a lot of anecdotal evidence. I will am indebted to Detective Chief Inspector Colquhoun not say too much about it because I know we will be of the West Mercia Police, who has become a nationally hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, who is very recognised expert in the field. He has successfully familiar with the work. We have a very good opportunity prosecuted 74 individuals, who received a total of this evening to hear from the Minister where Government 64 years in prison. He is personally leading efforts to thinking is on this matter. increase awareness throughout the police force of the I am very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Graham ways in which fraud can be perpetrated. The growth of of Edmonton, is with us this evening. He has been criminality in this sector is a combination of the such a clarion voice crying out for this sector over economics of the industry and the inadequate regulatory many years and I pay tribute to you, Ted, for what you framework. have done. Most park homes are owned by their occupants, who must separately buy the pitch that it is standing Lord Graham of Edmonton: Many thanks. on and pay ongoing service charges. A pitch can cost anything from £20,000 to £250,000, so this can be big Baroness Scott of Needham Market: There are more money. Consumer Focus has shown that only around than 2,000 park home sites in this country, predominantly 1% of purchasers take legal advice before they buy, in rural areas, and they house around 160,000 people which is a serious problem. The restrictions on park in 85,000 homes. The residents are almost all approaching home owners are so onerous that I imagine it simply or beyond retirement age and many are of modest would not occur to buyers that such a framework means. The Consumer Focus report notes that a quarter could exist, but it does and they often do not know of these residents are over 75, so many of them are until it is too late. A park home owner cannot sell their vulnerable. Determined not to be reliant on the state, home without the approval of the site owner of the they have chosen to live in park homes, often using the prospective purchaser. The site owner then receives surplus equity from the sale of their previous home to 10% for doing very little. The purchase of the new supplement their pensions. pitch applies only to the original home. When it is replaced, a new fee has to be paid. These dwellings are often called “mobile homes” but this is highly misleading. While they might be The service charges are peanuts compared to the technically mobile, they are permanent residences and money that site owners can make from their share of this is much more than a matter of words. It means the sale of homes, particularly from buying and selling that the legal framework that is set out in three main homes themselves. The abuses vary. Some allow the pieces of legislation, predominantly the Caravan Sites site to decline to a point where everyone who can and Control of Development Act 1960, is entirely the leaves and the remaining residents are encouraged to wrong legal framework and woefully out of date. sell their homes at knock-down prices to the site owner, who redevelops the site and sells new pitches at I first became aware of problems in the sector more a very high price. Prosecutions have taken place of than 20 years ago when I was a district councillor and individuals who have decided to speed up this process things have not improved. In its submission to the by adding intimidation to their ways of encouraging government consultation, the Local Government people to leave. Association gave examples of site owners who overcrowd the sites, ignore licence conditions, make inadequate Where owners wish to sell their home, site owners provision for drainage and sewerage, and dump rubbish. often veto numbers of prospective purchasers, until in The current maximum fine is £2,500 and it is often desperation the seller accepts a very low price from the cheaper for the site owner to pay the fine than to do site owner himself. Site owners have been known to the work. In any event, it costs councils to do the intercept potential buyers at the entrance of the site or enforcement. In effect, local council tax payers are to pass on false information about the state of the subsidising this abhorrent behaviour. home. There are examples of site owners visiting local The solution proposed by the Local Government estate agents to tell them that they are wasting their Association is that the sector is brought in line with time marketing the homes because any new purchaser the Housing Act 2004, which would allow for the will be vetoed. issuing of improvement notices, prosecution for serious Site owners have been known to write to residents non-compliance, the power to carry out work and telling them that their home is defective and they will re-charge for it, and the registration of enforcement be evicted if they do not remedy it. Luckily, the notices as local land charges. The current licence system ever-caring site owner is there to offer to buy their is often manipulated because responsibility for compliance home from them, at a price far below its real value. with site conditions does not necessarily transfer to Conversely, people who want to improve or refurbish new owners when sites are sold. their homes are often told that they need the site Service charges often bear no relation to the actual owner’s permission and that it will not be forthcoming. expenditure of the site owner on the site but it is A culture of intimidation and fear has grown up. difficult for the residents to dispute the bills. Some site Consumer Focus reports that one in 10 residents has owners are levying a VAT rate of 20% on the re-charges experienced abusive and threatening behaviour. Many GC 27 Housing: Park Homes[LORDS] Housing: Park Homes GC 28

[BARONESS SCOTT OF NEEDHAM MARKET] pay scant attention to the law and seem almost do not go to the police because they are simply too untouchable by the authorities. If the authorities do frightened. Let us remember that these are mostly engage with the site owners, they pay little attention. older, often elderly, people. Some residents have organised As she says, the law needs substantial change. I welcome themselves and have set up groups. We should recognise the consultation which Grant Shapps issued last year. how much courage it takes to organise in this way I welcome Mr Aldous’s Private Member’s Bill and a because there are reports of serious intimidation against similar Bill, which I think will appear in the Welsh the organisers and members of such groups. The Assembly this week, but we need a head of steam and National Park Home Owners Congress held its meeting the Government to get behind the action. in Birmingham in the summer and it was attended by Before I go any further, I should declare my past more than 4,000 people. It takes real guts to do what and present interests. I am chair of the campaign they are doing and we should support them not just group, Housing Voice, a vice-president of the Trading with warm words but by providing a legislative framework Standards Institute and a past chair of Consumer that is fit for purpose. Focus. In the past few weeks, Consumer Focus and Mr Aldous’s Bill, which I am very pleased has the Consumer Focus Wales have produced damning reports support of the Government, will go a long way to of caravan owners’ experience on sites in England and creating that, but it is not of itself enough. The Bill is Wales. I will refer to those in a moment. We have also not retrospective and I understand that is because of had the Select Committee report in another place. The legal advice that the Human Rights Act could be committee found that malpractice is widespread across invoked if there is a retrospective change of contract. the park home sector and the current law is inadequate. However, this leaves the current 160,000 people vulnerable It neither deters unscrupulous park home site owners to the sort of abuse I have described, in fact possibly from exploiting residents nor provides local authorities even more vulnerable—I fear that there will be a sort with effective powers to monitor or improve site conditions. of crime bonanza later on as the rogue operators see It particularly identifies sale blocking as a significant their cash cow disappearing. I would like the Government problem. to think again and see whether there is a middle way of I am calling for legislative changes, some of which introducing this for existing tenants, perhaps a few are in the Private Member’s Bill before the House of years down the road, in such a way that does not Commons, to amend the Caravan Sites and Control of impinge on the Human Rights Act. Can the Minister Development Act 1960, the Caravan Sites Act 1968 also undertake to look at the question of park homes and the Mobile Homes Act 1983. It brings together and the Green Deal? Fuel poverty is a real problem in the licensing regime that applies to mobile homes in this sector. England. A similar proposition is coming up in Wales. Finally, while the Bill will include a fit and proper The issue of whether a site owner is a fit and proper person test for site owners, it will not be implemented person, however, is key to this. The Bill currently is until it is deemed necessary later. Will the Minister quite weak on that proposition. accept that all the work I have referred to earlier has My first engagement in this area was brought about demonstrated that there is ample evidence of the need by two forces: first, my interest in energy and, secondly, for such a test now? It is not just about driving the the activities of my noble friend Lord Graham of crooks out; we also need to provide comfort to the Edmonton. During the passage of every energy and good operators who are being tarnished by these water Bill—we have had a good few over the past few criminals. years—he has brought up the position in relation to I look forward to hearing the contributions from gas, water and electricity supply to those homes. In a other noble Lords in this short debate and to hearing mobile home park there is no standard way in which the Minister’s reply. residents receive their water, electricity and gas, but the number of sites with individual metering is fairly small. Some are attached to the gas main but the vast 5.21 pm majority are off the gas grid. In those situations, the Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am very grateful to the site operator, the owner, has substantial powers in noble Baroness, Lady Scott, for initiating this debate. terms of selling on and resale. Significant numbers of She is quite right that a significant number of our residents have problems with their site owner, including, fellow citizens now live in park homes on permanent for example, more than a quarter of gas and electricity- sites. Some do so through lifestyle choice but, as she supplied caravan owners in Wales. rightly says, the majority of them are quite elderly The reports by Consumer Focus have come up with people who have done so at a stage in their lives when a number of suggestions in this area outwith changes they wish to downsize. Their families have left home in the primary legislation. It has asked the regulators, and this, in the face of an endemic housing problem, is particularly Ofgem, to clarify and issue updated maximum their only choice. Some people of working age live in retail price guidance to energy resellers and the rules them because the cost of mortgages or rent is too high surrounding reselling energy. It has also asked them to for them to live in the villages where they were born or consider how they can help residents who are billed in the towns in which they work. We have a significant for their energy use by the site operator through a population in this situation. third-party billing company and to make sure that the As the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, has said, many standards and accuracy of those bills is guaranteed. It sites are well run by responsible site owners. We should has also asked them to look at the level of reduction in note that right at the beginning. However, there are energy costs which would be permitted under the also far too many site owners who abuse their tenants, maximum resale price rules guidance. GC 29 Housing: Park Homes[23 OCTOBER 2012] Housing: Park Homes GC 30

With Ofwat, Consumer Focus is looking for just £50,000, of which, in reality, they received only amendments to existing legislation to ensure that those £35,000. That is gross deception and dishonesty but it who purchase their water and sewerage through site arises from the anomalous power position between the operators have equivalent rights to those who purchase owners and tenants of the homes and the site owners. direct, and, again, to clarify and update the maximum In that case, having paid £35,000 for the home, the site resale price. There is an agenda there for these owner subsequently sold it for £95,000. 160,000 people, for legislation in this Parliament and So far, there have been no criminal proceedings of on the activities of the regulators. any sort against such people, and that is unacceptable To pick up on a point made by the noble Baroness, in our society for a significant number of our citizens. Lady Scott, it is also obvious that park homes are not We should start by following through with the Private the most energy efficient dwellings in the land. However, Member’s Bill and the repeal of the relevant provisions it would appear that very few of them have had any on sale-blocking and the veto of the site operator. benefit from past fuel poverty or energy efficiency I hope that the Private Member’s Bill succeeds but, schemes. In relation to the Green Deal, which is just even more, I hope that the Government take up this now being launched, it is not at all clear how owners case and look at it across the board, perhaps strengthening or tenants of park home sites will benefit. The previous the Private Member’s Bill or coming up with their own Secretary of State, who was asked about this in 2011, propositions which will ensure that the legislation, the said that park homes would be able to apply for the regulations and the enforcement resources are available Green Deal. As matters stand, it is not at all clear that to end the distressing effects of the present situation. that can be the case. Access to finance is dependent on carrying out a methodology to assess the energy efficiency 5.33 pm of the home, which is the standard assessment procedure. That is very difficult to apply—in general, it does not Lord Best: My Lords, having given prior notice, I apply—to permanent caravan-site dwellings. The rise to make a brief intervention, and I thank the Department of Energy and Climate Change needs to noble Baroness, Lady Scott, for initiating this short look at this and see whether the potential for a Green debate. Deal for owners of caravans could be enhanced. There I have been honoured to accept the invitation from is also the question of how the billing for that would Peter Aldous MP to take the mobile homes Private operate when the site operator has an intermediary. Member’s Bill through your Lordships’ House when it Outside the energy, gas and water areas, there are of finishes its passage through the other place. I was course more general issues: the level of service charges, present at the Second Reading debate on the Bill in the the failure of maintenance and the breach of various other place last Friday and I was extremely impressed licensing conditions. In addition, regrettably, behaviour, by the unanimity of approval for the Bill. As a Cross- as the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, has said, can amount Bencher, I was delighted to see that party politics to intimidation, threats and organised antisocial behaviour, played no part in that high-quality debate. Rogue site and has inflicted great distress on a lot, albeit a owners were named, powerful examples of malpractice minority, of these sites. were given, and the solutions contained in the Bill were commended from all sides. The licensing process is pretty inadequate, and the resources available to trading standards and others to I congratulate Peter Aldous MP on introducing the enforce those licensing conditions are not at all adequate. Bill and securing such strong support for it. The fit-and-proper test needs to be set in lights in this Congratulations are indeed also due on the long-standing process. If we can build on the option of going down campaign for justice for park home residents by the that road in the Private Member’s Bill, that would be noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, who has useful, because there are people in this trade who waited a long time for this Bill. clearly would not pass even a minimum fit-and-proper test. Lord Graham of Edmonton: Hear, hear! The last issue that I want to raise is sale-blocking. In the course of its research, Consumer Focus Wales Lord Best: Thanks go, too, to the right honourable came across many disturbing cases of people wanting Grant Shapps, who was the Housing Minister who got to sell and move away being faced with hostility, behind this legislation and gave it government backing. threats and what I might call physical and financial Tribute must also be paid to the wonderful campaigners sabotage on the part of the site owners. Consumer in the other place led by Annette Brooke MP, with Focus has come up with a number of such cases. backing from Natascha Engel MP and others associated At the moment, the site owner has a veto over the with the APPG on this theme, propelled by faithful ability to resell. In one such case, for example, the campaigners outside of Parliament for whom this has mobile home residents sold their home to an unscrupulous been a long journey. I know that Members in the other site operator for a fraction of its market value. In place were greatly helped by the new Consumer Focus another, the home owner told how she had received report, Living the Dream?, and the excellent analysis just £2,000, despite the fact that the home had been from Consumer Focus Wales, Park Life: Residential valued at £110,000. In another case, a couple bought Mobile Home Living in Wales, and it is clear that the their home directly from the site owner for £150,000 report from the CLG Select Committee, to which but, when they tried to sell it, the site owner blocked reference has been made, undoubtedly helped win the sale of the home to any other purchaser until approval for the inclusion of the clause introducing eventually the couple agreed to sell it back to him for the back-stop of a fit and proper person test. GC 31 Housing: Park Homes[LORDS] Housing: Park Homes GC 32

[LORD BEST] Let me rattle through them. The park homes owned I noted five issues in the debate, a number of which by Mr Small and his family include Battisford Park, have been considered by the noble Baroness, Lady Plympton; Beauford Park, Taunton; Beechdown Park, Scott, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. None of them Paignton; Bickington Park, Barnstaple; Brimley Gardens, are deal breakers, but all are worth discussing in more Bovey Tracey; Brookmeadow Park, Swindon; Broughton depth. My anxiety is that some existing park home Park, Taunton; and others. Although I could go on, residents may feel let down if their current defective time would beat me. leases have to remain untouched and those long-suffering The other problem is that we are talking not just owners continue to face appalling treatment at the about blocking the sale of park home sites, but other hands of site owners, but it may be possible to address factors. One issue on which I am grateful to the that, and I am sure the Bill will be even better when it Minister and his colleagues is the establishment of the comes to us. Residential Property Tribunal, which is a mark along This is an incredibly important piece of legislation. the way. It has been doing good work. I have here a It may affect only relatively few people scattered across report of a situation where Mr and Mrs Tony Glew the country, often in remote places, but it is going to raised some issues, but the site owners were found by make a vast difference to the quality of life of so many the tribunal to have, of them. I look forward very much to helping steer it “failed to comply with the procedure incorporated into the agreement through its stages in this House where I feel sure it will by Schedule 1, Part 1, Chapter 2 of the Mobile Homes Act”, get tremendous support. and so on. What is interesting here is that mention has been made of frail and elderly residents. This is what 5.36 pm happened to the people in this case. The tribunal decision stated: Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, it is a joy and a pleasure to have this opportunity, given to us by “On or about the 10th May 2011, they, or their servants or agents, entered the pitch of the park home address, removed and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, to have a canter over destroyed 2 gates and part of the fence, destroyed a large part of the course. Undoubtedly when the Bill was passed last the garden, took up concrete slabs which had been used for Friday, and I was there, many people, not least the parking a car and moved another section of fence all belonging to Minister here today and the civil servants who have the Applicant and his wife. They then erected another fence to been frustrated over the years, were pleased. When I exclude most of the garden and all the car parking area from the was in the Commons, I served on the 1983 Bill. Time pitch and to allow only pedestrian access to the park home”. after time the issues that have caused the problem have All this arose because the occupants, Mr and Mrs Glew been raised. We made some progress, but all too often —willing sellers—had found a willing buyer. Yet the we were thwarted, not least by the change of ministerial landowners could not care tuppence about that. All responsibilities. Every time a Minister is led and schooled the owners were interested in was whether the park and has a grasp of the issue, unfortunately for the home was making money for the business. They have a issue, he is moved on to other things. When Mr Grant business and they are entitled to carry it on, but not to Shapps came to the all-party meeting, I said that if he the detriment of the health or pockets of other people. was not careful he would make a name for himself. Of I am delighted that we have started on a journey. I course, he has made a name for himself. At that know that I might have felt alone at times over the past meeting he told us that time was precious and that if a 30 years, but this time I will not be alone and I am very Private Member’s Bill could be found, or if someone grateful. won the ballot, he would assist. I congratulate the Minister, who did what he was able to do, and we are 5.42 pm all very grateful. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we should be The Select Committee is invaluable. It is led by grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Scott of Needham Clive Betts in the other place. The summary of the Market, for initiating this debate. I suspect that we will Select Committee’s first report states: have a wide degree of consensus in our contributions— “Malpractice is widespread across the park home sector and there certainly has been already. We have the benefit of complaints from residents about unfair fees, poor maintenance and site owners making it difficult for residents to sell their homes the introduction of the Mobile Homes Bill—a Private are common. Though we recognise that there are some good site Member’s Bill in the other place—which had its Second operators, it is clear that action is needed now to improve the Reading just last week, of the CLG Select Committee sector and drive the worst offenders out”. report in June of this year, and of the Consumer There is no doubt that there are vast numbers of good Focus report that my noble friend Lord Whitty spoke site owners who have served loyally and long. However, to. I shall give the committee an illustration that I have It should be clear from our contributions in the received. In Cornwall, there is a Mr Jeffrey Small, who other place that we support the Private Member’s Bill, is well known to those of us who have been following and I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Best, has the issue. His wife is Barbara Small and his son is been asked to take it forward in our House. I am sure Jeffrey Small. They have been in trouble. Cornwall that it will have strong support right across the House, County Council said: as he suggested. We also support the need for “The Smalls have been operating mobile park home sites for comprehensive measures to address the abuses that are around 10 years, at times trading as J and B Small Park Homes all too prevalent in this sector, some of which have and JBS Park Homes and often via offices … in Taunton”. been mentioned. These abuses continue despite some One of the problems is, of course, that it is not just the measures being taken by the previous Government to owner of one site—it is a site owner with many sites. improve matters; and, sadly, more measures never GC 33 Housing: Park Homes[23 OCTOBER 2012] Housing: Park Homes GC 34 made the statute book. However, like other noble on this occasion to debate the wider issue of the Lords, we should not let this occasion pass without capacity and resources available to local authorities, acknowledging the role of individual campaigners—the but funding by way of charging for licensing activities most prominent of which has been my noble friend would not necessarily deal with the support that is Lord Graham. His faith and determination over 30 years needed—but it is a start. has kept the flame alive. We support the discretion to grant or transfer a site licence that will help and deal with the problem created Lord Graham of Edmonton: “An’ it don’t seem a day by mandatory current requirements, and the powers too much!” to serve a compliance notice on site owners and to intervene to carry out work when compliance is not forthcoming are important, as stressed by the noble Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the Minister in Baroness, Lady Scott. the other place accepted that the practical constraints A long-standing point of contention is whether or on the size of the Private Member’s Bill mean that it not site owners and operators should be fit and proper cannot include every issue on which the Government persons, just as they need to be for HMO licence consulted. Perhaps some space in our legislative holders. As the Communities and Local Government programme created by the lack of a House of Lords Committee pointed out, although it may be difficult to Reform Bill could give the Government time to take apply retrospectively, and would need to consider who up more fully the issues that they feel have been left would take over the management if somebody was out by this Bill. disqualified, nevertheless there should be regulations Perhaps the Minister could say, if extra time were to that effect—and we support that recommendation. available, what would be included in the legislation Like the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, I ask the Government that the Private Member’s Bill currently excludes. what will determine whether and at what point regulations The problems with the sector are well documented. should be brought in so that people have to be fit and Inevitably, we have concentrated this afternoon on proper persons. unscrupulous site owners—the noble Baroness, Lady The Select Committee recommendation was that, Scott, referred to the “growing evidence of serious criminality” and that clearly is the case—but we should “removing a site owner’s right to approve prospective buyers provides the only effective way to eliminate sale blocking”. acknowledge that many site owners take their responsibilities seriously, as my noble friend Lord For new agreements, this seems to be a pretty Whitty and the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, acknowledged. straightforward arrangement but for existing agreements The need to stop abuses is especially great because I think it is more protracted; the provisions in the Bill most residents of park homes are elderly and increasingly are less secure. I would appreciate the Minister’s view vulnerable. I have a statistic that says that 70% of them on that. are over 70 years old. Many of them moved to park The Private Member’s Bill would appear to put us homes in retirement, into what they saw as idyllic on the road to an effective regulatory regime for park homes in attractive locations. homes. We are delighted to be able to support that and As my honourable friend Natascha Engel MP pointed look forward to its passage through your Lordships’ out in the Second Reading debate last week—a point House. However, it is not a panacea. My noble friend echoed by the noble Baroness, Lady Scott—the current noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred to issues that could legislation may be the Mobile Homes Act and the or should be dealt with by regulation, particularly the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act, but rules around re-selling of energy supplies. Perhaps the we are talking about people’s homes. They may not be Minister could say what is intended on that front, and made of bricks and mortar but they are essentially address the question raised by the noble Baroness, static. Lady Scott, on the fact that this is not retrospective. The noble Baroness and others have highlighted the How can we inculcate the provisions that are in the key issues: lack of maintenance of sites, deliberate Bill in a way that could operate for the future, and will miscalculation of pitch fees and utility charges, sale- protect all of those who are at serious risk under blocking and intimidation. The Second Reading debate current arrangements? in the other place highlighted some of the disgraceful This has been a short but very important debate, practices around sale-blocking, which is often coupled and one that is timely, given the legislative process that with intimidation and harassment. is under way. I hope that that, in particular, will be a Perhaps the question we should be addressing now great comfort to my noble friend Lord Graham, for is: will the Private Member’s Bill be the effective way everything that he has done in the past. of tackling these abuses? The Select Committee recommendations in particular made reference to the 5.50 pm removal of a site owner’s existing right to approve the buyer, an interim measure to give the residential property The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department tribunal the right to award damages and compensation for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): when sale-blocking takes place, and modernising local My Lords, I believe I can say without risk of being authority licensing arrangements. challenged by anybody at all, that this is a debate, perhaps unusually, for the noble Lord and myself, The capacity and funding of local authorities to where there is absolutely no disagreement at all. conduct their licensing activities is an important matter. Clearly, the ability under the Bill to charge for that will help with resources. Perhaps it would be inappropriate Lord Graham of Edmonton: Hear, hear! GC 35 Housing: Park Homes[LORDS] Housing: Park Homes GC 36

Baroness Hanham: We all welcome this legislation, The Government’s response has been published on the and we will look forward to it when it gets to this Department for Communities and Local Government House. As did other noble Lords in this debate, I pay website. tribute to the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Park In the mean time, my honourable friend the Member Homes, which has raised the profile of the sector in for Waveney introduced, with government backing in Parliament and beyond. Absolutely crucial to that has the other place, a Private Member’s Bill for which been the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton. He reference has been made to reform the law on mobile may not remember, though I do, that as a rather new homes. It may not cover all the points and aspects that and very wobbly Front-Bencher, I took forward one of everyone wants. Maybe during the course of its passage the many debates that he organised in this House, through one or other House it may be strengthened, about 10 years ago. I remember that well, and I but at the moment it is as it is. It received its Second remember being persuaded by what he said, that here Reading and will now proceed to its Committee stage. lay a big problem. It is a pity that it has taken us 10 I understand that when it passes all stages—my brief years to get here, but here we are. says “should it”, but I am reasonably satisfied that it A number of noble Lords have mentioned my right will do well—the noble Lord, Lord Best, will pilot it in honourable friend Grant Shapps. He grasped the situation this House. I am sure that he will have good support when he became a Minister, and it was due to him that here as well. the residential tribunal was set up. It may not have had I must emphasise that the Bill focuses on permanent time yet to show all its teeth, but it is certainly starting residential sites and will not apply to holiday homes, to make an impact on this. even those where the residents live there for up to 10 or A number of important issues have been raised. I 11 months in a year, with just a month away from it. It will try to deal with some of those; if I leave any out, applies purely to those sites that are residential where then I will of course write to noble Lords. I also wish the home owners have agreements under the Mobile to comment on the Select Committee, which did an Homes Act 1983, including mixed-use sites such as extremely good job, and to mention the Consumer those that are partly residential and partly holiday. Focus report, which absolutely confirmed the findings The provisions in the Bill relating to changes to the of the Select Committee. Mobile Homes Act will not apply to local authority As others have said, living on a park home site is an traveller sites either because sale blocking is not in affordable choice of housing for many people. I have question on such sites, as sales are not permitted. But the figure of 85,000 households here—I do not think there was also no evidence that the other changes to that we probably have much disagreement about that—and site rules and pitch fees were required where ownership they are mainly elderly. It would also be fair to say that was in the hands of local authorities. I ought to say some or many sites are properly managed and maintained that I am quite glad about that. by decent, honest and professional site owners who The Bill’s objective is to put the park home business look after the rights and the welfare of their residents on a proper footing for the future, where honest and and community. professional site owners can prosper, while those who However, the good work that they do is often abuse their legal powers and have no regard for the completely masked by the unacceptable conduct of welfare and rights of their residents or their health the minority—and we have had many examples of and safety will no longer be able to profiteer. As we that today. They cause misery by not maintaining the have heard, the Bill aims to achieve this by introducing sites properly, bullying residents, and interfering light-touch reforms that target the worst practices, unreasonably or unlawfully when residents wish to minimising the burdens on good operators. Through exercise their rights, and their rights to sell—something these measures, we hope that residents will be able to that the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Whitty, live peacefully in their homes, secure in the knowledge raised. The park homes sector should have no place that their lives, health and safety will not be endangered for these people. We want the good site owners to and their rights respected. The Bill contains most of thrive and we absolutely want the bad to wither and the key measures on which the Government consulted go away. We are therefore committed to targeted reform, earlier in the year and builds on the Select Committee’s which does not place unnecessary burdens on those recommendations following its forensic inquiry into site owners who operate in a well regulated and lawful the park homes industry and its practices. manner. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, The Communities and Local Government Select Lady Scott, referred to unlawful sale blocking, which Committee’s inquiry received 250 pieces of written was one of the most serious complaints. It is clear that evidence and held four oral sessions in the spring, the practice is not confined to a small number of rogue including one in Bournemouth at which it took evidence operators. In some parts it appears to be acceptable from home owners and site operators. As has been practice that the landlord should be able to put their mentioned, the committee’s report showed that the foot down for a sale, but it is not acceptable practice. catalogue of problems that people had been raising Park home owners are as a matter of law entitled to were a fact. It formed the view that malpractice was sell their properties on the open market. However, also widespread. Many of the responses to the Government’s as a matter of law, the site operator must approve the consultation, which ran from 16 April to 28 May buyer. To some this seems a sensible way of ensuring this year, found that that was the conclusion. We that the purchaser would meet the rules that apply to received 621 responses, many of which corroborated the site, for example on age, family composition or the the evidence to and findings of the Select Committee. keeping of pets. However, some site owners abuse this GC 37 Housing: Park Homes[23 OCTOBER 2012] Housing: Park Homes GC 38 process to thwart a sale by not responding to the Lord McKenzie of Luton: If the noble Baroness will request for approval at all or by making contact with forgive me, the question was that if there were scope, the buyer and putting them off proceeding. what would the Government be happy to support Although there is a right of appeal to a residential further in terms of primary legislation? property tribunal, which was brought in by this Government in 2011, if an approval has been unreasonably Baroness Hanham: My Lords, at the moment the withheld, very few cases reach the door of the tribunal Government support everything that was in the because the purchaser has normally withdrawn from consultation. There are areas where we are waiting to the transaction by the time this happens. In fact, of the see what happens as a result of the Bill’s implementation few cases that have been decided by the tribunal, in and further consultation; the fit and proper person every case they found the site owner had acted test is probably one, but it is very much on the radar unreasonably in not responding to the request or in because it was brought up very significantly in the refusing the approval. Select Committee report. As has been said, site operators are legally entitled The noble baroness, Lady Scott, asked about the to a 10% commission on the sale of a park home, so if human rights aspect. We cannot take away altogether one was sold for £80,000 they would be entitled to the site owner’s contractual right to approve, but we £8,000 of the sale price. The Government do not have in fact reversed the burden of proof. Refusal can intend to interfere with that aspect. However, an be made only on certain grounds and only with agreement unscrupulous operator realises that he can make of a residential property tribunal. significantly more than £8,000 by refusing to approve the purchase. Often if the home owner urgently needs to move or if purchasers are persistently refused, the Baroness Scott of Needham Market: I am grateful home owner is forced to agree to sell. Indeed, we have to the Minister for allowing me to intervene because I heard today of some who have sold for as little as know that she is short of time. My concern about the £2,000. No other form of home ownership sales is way the Human Rights Act is being interpreted means subject to such interference and abuse. I confirm that that it cannot apply retrospectively. Current owners we fully support the measures in the Bill to restrict the will remain vulnerable; only the new owners will have role of site owners in approving buyers of homes from protection. I am very nervous for current owners, existing residents and to remove that role altogether in particularly as I fear a kind of bonanza where people respect of future sales by new residents. will see this money-making opportunity drying up in the future. The situation could inadvertently become Allied to this is the strengthening of the criminal even worse for the existing tenants than it is at the law against harassment and to make it a criminal moment. offence to make false or misleading representations to prevent a sale from proceeding. There is also widespread concern that pitch fee increases lack transparency and Baroness Hanham: I am sorry if I misunderstood unlawful charges are often included. The Bill addresses the point, but it is one that is extremely well made. As this by requiring site owners to set out in a notice my noble friend says, the Bill is not retrospective, as precisely what is included in the proposed pitch fee indeed most legislation is not. Potentially, however, it and if this notice is not used the pitch fee review will will offer protection in a perilous situation. Unfortunately, be invalid. there will be bad site owners until they are stopped. Another major problem identified from the The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about fuel consultation and in the committee’s report is the condition poverty. We are talking to DECC about the application of many sites and the poor quality of services and of the Green Deal to park homes. However, as this is a amenities to them because of either underinvestment Private Member’s Bill, we cannot connect them together. over the years or, in some cases, a deliberate policy of Someone may wish to try to strengthen the law as time allowing or causing whole sites or parts of sites to fall goes on. into disrepair. This was underlined by the noble Lord, I think that I have dealt with the issue of the fit and Lord Graham, telling us about the site owner who had proper person test as best I can, and as I say, there is effectively wrecked one of the homes. The Bill will going to be very much a watching brief on that. That permit local authorities to address such problems probably covers most of the aspects that have been through a more effective licensing regime that will raised in our debate. I hope that I have made clear that enable enforcement action to be taken against those we strongly welcome and support the measures in the who do not keep their sites properly maintained. I am Bill. They are indeed long overdue because too many sure that local authorities that are affected by these people have been put in jeopardy for too long a time. I problems will be only too happy to take up the cudgels. hope that the Bill will get as far as this House and that The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked whether it will be passed unanimously in the other place. We there would be room for more and more legislation on will then have an opportunity to consider it—it is this. I am sure he does not really expect me to answer hoped in the not too distant future. A Private Member’s that. There are people who make decisions about Bill will provide at least some protection for those who legislation other than me, but we will enthusiastically have been suffering for a long time. follow this Private Member’s Bill through from beginning to end. Committee adjourned at 6.07 pm.

WS 5 Written Statements[23 OCTOBER 2012] Written Statements WS 6

The review will complete its work during 2014 and Written Statements will look at the scope of the EU’s competences (the power to act in particular areas conferred on it by the Tuesday 23 October 2012 EU treaties) as they affect the UK, how they are used, and what that means for Britain and our national interests. Crime: Economic Crime The review will be divided into four semesters, each Statement containing six to 10 reports. This will allow reports on related topics to be grouped together. The reports The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord from each semester will be published at the end of that McNally): My right honourable friend the Minister semester. If necessary, changes to this timetable will be for Policing and Criminal Justice (Damian Green) has made in order to take account of any events which made the following Written Ministerial Statement. could impact upon the timing of a report. The semesters are: I am today publishing the Government response to the Consultation on a New Enforcement Tool to deal semester one: autumn 2012—summer 2013; with Economic Crime Committed by Commercial semester two: spring 2013—winter 2013; 1 Organisations: Deferred Prosecution Agreements. semester three: autumn 2013—summer 2014; and Economic crime is far from victimless and has a semester four: spring 2014—autumn 2014 pernicious and damaging effect on our economy and on that of the wider world. Options for dealing with The first semester reviews will be: offending by commercial organisations are currently an overview on the single market; limited and the number of outcomes each year, through taxation; both criminal and civil proceedings, is too low. The Government’s consultation paper set out their proposals animal health and welfare and food safety; for an additional tool for prosecutors to deal effectively health; with white collar crime committed by organisations, development; and the deferred prosecution agreement (DPA). foreign policy. Eighty-six per cent of responses to our consultation agreed that DPAs can play a vital role in helping to The single market encompasses such a broad area overcome the challenges of bringing organisations of competence that it is being split, with further reports that commit wrongdoing to justice. There was widespread on the four freedoms—goods, persons, services and support for an approach that ensures that redress is capital—in semesters two and three. available, with wrongdoing seeing the light of day, Departments will take a rigorous approach to the victims properly compensated and offending organisations collection and analysis of evidence. The government facing stringent sanctions. Respondents also endorsed department leading each review will, at the appropriate our proposed operational model and processes. time, publish a call for evidence which will set out the Primary legislation is required to provide for deferred scope of their report and include a series of broad prosecution agreements and accordingly the Government questions on which they would like contributors to are today tabling amendments to the Crime and Courts focus. The calls for evidence for first semester reports Bill which is currently being considered by the House will be published shortly and will be available through of Lords. the FCO website and through the website of the department leading each review. The reports into the Copies of the document have been placed in the first six competences will be published in the summer Libraries of both Houses, in the Vote Office and in the of 2013, along with the evidence received (subject to Printed Paper Office. The document is also available the provisions of the Data Protection Act). online, at: www.justice.gov.uk/consultations. 1 Government departments will consult widely, including Command Paper 8348, 17 May 2012 Parliament and its committees, business, the devolved Administrations, and civil society in order to obtain evidence to contribute to their analysis of the issues. EU: Balance of Competences Our EU partners and the EU institutions will also be Statement invited to contribute evidence to the review. The result will be a comprehensive, thorough and The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities detailed analysis of where competence lies and what it and Local Government and Foreign and Commonwealth means for the United Kingdom. It will aid our Office (Baroness Warsi): My right honourable friend understanding of the nature of our EU membership; the Foreign Secretary has made the following Written and it will provide a constructive and serious contribution Ministerial Statement. to the wider European debate about modernising, I wish to inform the House that, further to my oral reforming and improving the EU. The review will not Statement at the launch of the balance of competences produce specific policy recommendations. review (Official Report, 12 July 2012, col. 468) the I am placing the timetable in the Library of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is today publishing House. It will also be published on the Foreign and the timetable for the review including departmental Commonwealth Office website: http://www.fco.gov.uk/ responsibility for the reports into each individual area en/global-issues/european-union/balance-of- of competence. competences-review/. WS 7 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 8

Report Title Departmental lead EU: Schengen Evaluation Mechanism Statement Semester 1 (Autumn ’12—Summer ’13) 1 Internal Market: Synopsis Department for Business, Innovation and Skills The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home 2 Taxation HM Treasury Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My honourable 3 Animal Health and Department for friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Welfare and Food safety Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Security (James Brokenshire) has today made the following 4 Health Department of Health Written Ministerial Statement. 5 Development Department for The Government have decided not to exercise their International right, under Protocol 19 to the Treaty on the Functioning Development of the European Union (the Schengen Protocol) and 6 Foreign Policy Foreign and the Treaty on European Union, to opt out of the Commonwealth Office regulation of the European Parliament and of the Semester 2 (Spring ’13—Autumn ’13) Council on the establishment of an evaluation mechanism 7 Internal Market: Freedom HM Revenue & Customs to verify the application of the Schengen acquis. of movement of Goods 8 Internal Market: Free Home Office The Government have taken this decision in accordance movement of persons with the commitment in the coalition agreement which 9 Asylum and Immigration Home Office states that we will approach legislation in the area of 10 Trade and Investment Department for Business, security and criminal justice on a case-by-case basis, Innovation and Skills with a view to maximising our country’s security, 11 Environment Department for protecting Britain’s civil liberties and preserving the Environment, Food and integrity of our criminal justice system. Rural Affairs The Government believe that our national interests 12 Transport Department for Transport are best served by participating in this regulation. 13 Research and Department for Business, Development Innovation and Skills Through this mechanism we can ensure that member states implement and continue to apply the correct 14 Tourism, Culture and Department for Culture, Sport Media and Sport standards, as required by the Schengen acquis, in 15 Civil Justice Ministry of Justice order to maintain an area of lowered border controls Semester 3 (Autumn ’13—Spring ’14) which is secure for its citizens. Our participation will 16 Internal Market: Services Department for Business, ensure our existing active role in the scrutiny of those Innovation and Skills policing and judicial co-operation elements of the 17 Internal Market: Capital HM Treasury Schengen acquis in which we participate. 18 EU Budget HM Treasury 19 Cohesion Department for Business, Innovation and Skills HGV Road User Levy Bill 20 Social and Employment Department for Business, Statement Innovation and Skills 21 Agriculture Department for Environment, Food and Earl Attlee: My honourable friend the Parliamentary Rural Affairs Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen 22 Fisheries Department for Hammond) has made the following Ministerial Statement. Environment, Food and For the benefit of Members of the House, I am Rural Affairs today setting out some details of the HGV Road User 23 Competition Department for Business, Innovation and Skills Levy Bill which will be debated in the House of 24 Energy Department of Energy Commons on Tuesday 23 October. The Bill itself will and Climate Change be walked in after the debate on the Ways and Means 25 Fundamental Rights Ministry of Justice resolution. Semester 4 (Spring ’14—Autumn ’14) The HGV Road User Levy Bill with introduce 26 Economic and Monetary HM Treasury charges for all HGVs that weigh 12 tonnes and over Union for using the UK road network. 27 Health & Safety and Health and Safety The Government realise the importance of haulage Consumer Protection Executive services provided by both UK-registered and foreign- 28 Police and Criminal Justice Home Office registered vehicles to our economy, ensuring that goods 29 Education Department for Education are brought in and efficiently moved around the country. 30 Enlargement Foreign and The key aim of this Bill is to ensure a fairer arrangement Commonwealth Office for UK hauliers to help improve their competitiveness. 31 Administrative Cabinet Office, Foreign Co-operation, Citizenship, and Commonwealth The legislation being introduced fulfils a commitment Information Rights and Office, Ministry of Justice, in the coalition agreement and is designed to remove Statistics. UK Statistics Authority an inequality, whereby UK hauliers pay to use many 32 Subsidiarity, Foreign and roads abroad, but foreign hauliers do not pay to use Proportionality and Commonwealth Office Article 352 roads in the UK. The levy is designed to be cost-neutral for UK hauliers, through offsetting reductions in vehicle Note: This order and sequencing may be subject to change as excise duty (VED) payments. Changes to VED will be the review progresses included in the Finance Bill 2014. WS 9 Written Statements[23 OCTOBER 2012] Written Statements WS 10

The levy will be time-based and will vary according That is why the Government set out a package of to the vehicle type, weight and number of axles. This proposals to increase public confidence that community seeks to ensure that the charging scale is linked to the orders provide a proper sanction for criminal behaviour, amount of damage a HGV causes to a road. The levy while also reducing reoffending and ensuring a better will be a maximum of £1,000 per year or £10 per day deal for victims. The consultation received nearly for the largest vehicles. UK-registered HGVs will pay 250 written responses. The response I am publishing the levy for either a six-monthly or annual period. today summarises the responses we received and sets Foreign-registered vehicles can pay the levy either out the policies we will now take forward. The daily, weekly, monthly or annually. Rebates will be Government will be tabling amendments to the Crime available under certain circumstances. Revenues will and Courts Bill to deliver a number of the reforms. be paid into the Consolidated Fund. The reforms include: The Bill makes it an offence to fail to pay the levy requiring courts to include a punitive element in and, on summary conviction, a fine of up to level 5 on every community sentence, unless there are exceptional the standard scale (currently £5,000) will be payable. circumstances; The Bill also provides for the offence to be subject to a making use of new technology, subject to appropriate fixed penalty and it allows the Secretary of State to safeguards, to track offenders during their sentence refuse to issue a vehicle licence if he is not satisfied to protect the public and help prevent criminals that the appropriate levy has been paid. committing further offences; The scheme will be administered by the Driver and working with the courts, judiciary and probation Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) or the Driver and trusts to explore improvements in operational procedures Vehicle Agency (DVA) in Northern Ireland. A private for dealing with breaches of community orders, so company will be contracted by the Department for that offenders are aware of the consequences of Transport to administer the payment scheme for foreign- breach and face swift sanctions if they do so; registered HGVs. The contractor will be required to expanding courts’ powers to defer sentencing so maintain an electronic database of foreign-registered that restorative justice can take place pre-sentence HGVs for which a levy has been paid. UK enforcement between victims and offenders. This will form part agencies will have access to the database. of the Government’s wider strategy to develop a The scheme will be enforced by the Vehicle and coherent vision of how restorative justice should Operator Services Agency (VOSA) in Great Britain apply across all stages of the justice process: including and the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) in Northern how we build local capacity within available funding, Ireland. These agencies currently enforce UK and and how we ensure a consistently high quality of foreign hauliers’ compliance with regulations on vehicle delivery through accreditation and training standards; roadworthiness, drivers’ hours and other road safety making clear that courts can take into account regulations. The police also have enforcement powers. criminals’ assets as well as their income when setting The Department for Transport conducted a financial penalties; consultation exercise in early 2012, and the findings of giving the courts access to benefits and tax information this are also being published today, and will be available from Department of Work and Pensions and Her on the Department for Transport’s website at the Majesty’s Revenue and Customs when setting and following address: www.dft.gov.uk/consultations/dft- enforcing financial penalties; and 2012-03. removing the current £5,000 limit on compensation orders in the magistrates’ courts. Copies of the Government response document will Justice: Sentencing be deposited in the Library of both Houses. Both the Statement Government response and associated documents will also be available online at: https://consult.justice.gov.uk/ The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord digital-communications/effective-community-services. McNally): My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Madagascar Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement Statement. I am today publishing the Government’s response The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities to their consultation Punishment and Reform: Effective and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Community Sentences which began on 27 March and Office (Baroness Warsi): My right honourable friend ended on 22 June 2012. the Foreign Secretary has made the following Written While community sentences can be effective at tackling Ministerial Statement. the causes of reoffending, they do not always inspire I am pleased to announce the reopening of Britain’s public confidence. Some community orders do not embassy in Madagascar after seven years. The contain an element that the public would consider ambassador, Mr Timothy Smart, will take up his demanding or punitive. The average length of a appointment in Antananarivo this month, and the community order has fallen in recent years, and the embassy will be fully functional by March 2013. percentage of successfully completed orders is also This marks Britain’s full diplomatic re-engagement still too low. There is also scope for community sentences with Madagascar after the decision by the last British to do more to repair the harm that crimes cause to Government to close the embassy in 2005. The new victims and communities. embassy replaces the British interests section which WS 11 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 12 was set up in the German embassy in November 2008, The London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games which was run by a locally engaged member of staff are viewed as a success by athletes, spectators, dignitaries and reported to Britain’s high commissioner in Mauritius. and the media. Team GB and Paralympics GB finished Having a fully accredited British ambassador and third in both the Olympic and Paralympic medal embassy in Antananarivo will enable us to provide tables with 185 medals won across both Games, 63 of more effective systematic support to British business, a which were gold. stronger trade and investment relationship with The handover of the Olympic Park from LOCOG Madagascar, and full consular assistance to British to the London Legacy Development Corporation, the residents and visitors. mayoral body responsible for delivering the transformation The resources of a full embassy will also allow us to works, is under way and on track. work more effectively with the international community Any underspend in the PSFP will be retained by to support Madagascar’s return to a fully recognised HM Treasury, though any moneys remaining at the constitutional government after free and fair elections, conclusion of the programme in the Olympic Lottery as set out in the Southern African Development Distribution Fund will be transferred to the National Community’s road map. Lottery Distribution Fund to benefit lottery good This decision sends a strong signal of British interest causes. in and engagement with Madagascar and the region. I would like to commend this report to the Members And it is part of the expansion of Britain’s diplomatic of both Houses and thank them for their interest in network in key regions of the world. By 2015 the and support for the London 2012 Games over the past British Government will have opened up 11 new British few years. This is the final report on the Games, but embassies and eight new consulates, and sent over further public updates will be made as required until 300 extra staff to over 22 countries in emerging economies. the completion of the programme in 2014. As I said in Parliament on 11 May 2011, there will Copies of the quarterly report October 2012 are be no strategic shrinkage of Britain’s diplomatic influence available online at www.culture.gov.uk and will be overseas and we will work to extend the reach of deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. British diplomacy.Reopening the embassy in Madagascar is part of that commitment. Specified Proceedings Provisions Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 Statement Statement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Viscount Younger of Leckie: My right honourable Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): My right honourable friend the Minister for Sport and Tourism (Hugh friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department Robertson) has made the following Statement. (Theresa May) has today made the following Written I am publishing today the Government Olympic Ministerial Statement. Executive’s final quarterly report—London 2012 Olympic Today I am announcing that we will grant the and Paralympic Games Quarterly Report October 2012. police new powers to prosecute a wider range of Following the successful conclusion of the Games, offences under specified proceedings provisions. These this report explains the latest budget position as at include driving without due care and attention, and 30 September 2012, and outlines the investments which criminal damage when the damage is valued at £5,000 are being made from the public sector funding package or less. for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. I informed Parliament in May that, as part of the The overall cost of the Games is forecast at £8.921 billion, wider reform of the criminal justice system, the Attorney- a saving of £377 million on the £9.298 billion budget. General and I intend to simplify and extend these Including contingency held for ODA and LOCOG processes, to reduce unnecessary bureaucracy and ensure risks there remains a total of £480 million of uncommitted swifter justice. The new offences will build on the contingency within the £9.3 billion public sector funding changes already made to enable police to continue to package (PSFP). prosecute these cases when the defendant fails to The anticipated final cost (AFC) of the Olympic appear in court or enter a plea by post, or where a Delivery Authority’s(ODA) construction and infrastructure driver pleads exceptional hardship to avoid a driving programme is £6,714 million, a £47 million reduction disqualification. since the previous report in June this year. With additional These changes will deliver more professional discretion savings in the period to 30 September 2012, the amount for the police and allow the Crown Prosecution Service saved by the ODA against the original budget has now to focus on more complex cases, and offer the chance reached £1,032 million. for better outcomes for victims and savings for the The published figures include additional funding taxpayer. They eliminate the need for the police to made available to LOCOG in the run up to the Games, hand over cases to the CPS where these are while the costs of policing and wider security, and straightforward, uncontested and dealt with in the venue security, have reduced in the period. magistrates’ court. WA 45 Written Answers[23 OCTOBER 2012] Written Answers WA 46

whether a decision has been taken on placing the Written Answers Merchant Navy Medal in the Order of Wear in recognition of the Diamond Jubilee Year and 30th Tuesday 23 October 2012 anniversary of the Falklands War. [HL2650]

Afghanistan Earl Attlee: It is taking longer than anticipated to Question reach a decision on this matter, which is still under consideration by the Committee on the Grant of Honours, Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne Decorations and Medals. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Statement by Baroness Warsi on 24 September (WS 126–27), in what ways and to what extent local Bees government officials in Helmand have taken control Question of vital infrastructure; and how the United Kingdom is Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham currently supporting the local government.[HL2456] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Baroness Northover: The Helmand provincial will adopt a national bee action plan to reverse the government have full responsibility for delivering public decline in the bee population and to reduce the services, including vital infrastructure. The provincial negative cost impact on agriculture. [HL2635] government also co-ordinate all Afghan government departments operating in Helmand to ensure that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department provision of infrastructure meets the needs of Helmandis. for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De The UK, with our Danish partners, supports local Mauley): Defra recognises the importance of all government in Helmand by providing financial and pollinators, including bees, and their value to both technical assistance. This includes support to the operation food security and sustaining the natural environment. and maintenance of key infrastructure. We are currently considering a range of evidence on the state of bees and other pollinators in order to determine what action is required. Animals: Micro-chipping Pets Question Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Civil Service: Staff Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Asked by Lord Myners they have made on the compulsory micro-chipping of pets. [HL2638] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many civil servants at each of grades 1, 2 and 3 have left The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department or indicated their intention to leave the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De for Transport since May 2010; and what percentage Mauley): The Government recently completed a these figures represent of the total employees at consultation on a package of proposals to tackle each of those grades in May 2010. [HL2610] irresponsible ownership of dogs, including proposals for the microchipping of dogs. The consultation attracted Earl Attlee: The numbers of staff in the Department a higher than expected 27,000 responses which are for Transport at the Senior Civil Service grades 1, currently being analysed and summarised. The quantity 2 and 3 in May 2010 and October 2012 are set out in and complexity of the issues under consideration has the table below: delayed progress. We expect to make an announcement soon. Grade/Title May 2010 October 2012

1 (Permanent Secretary) 1 1 Armed Forces: Commemoration 2 (Director General) 7 6 Question 3 (Director) 31 27 Asked by Lord West of Spithead Of the staff in post in May 2010 the department To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to staff at the following grades have left the department the Written Answer by Earl Attlee on 3 July (WA133), and the reasons for leaving:

Promotion to post in an Other Level Transfer to Government Other Government %age of staff in Grade/Title Department. Department Retirement Voluntary Exit Total post at May 2010

1 Permanent 0 2 0 0 2 100% Secretary

2 Director General 1 1 2 0 4 57% WA 47 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 48

Promotion to post in an Other Level Transfer to Government Other Government %age of staff in Grade/Title Department. Department Retirement Voluntary Exit Total post at May 2010

3 Director 0 2 4 4 10 34%

The department does not hold a record of people’s education in literacy and numeracy by 16 will be intention to leave the department. expected to continue to study towards EBCs in English and mathematics post-16.

Education: GCSEs Education: English Question Question Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne Asked by Lord Quirk To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps the Written Statement by Lord Hill of Oareford on they are taking to ensure improvement in the teaching 24 September (WS 139–41), what formal consultation and examining of English in the school system. the Department for Education undertook with teachers, [HL2279] parents and pupils before announcing its reform of GCSEs. [HL2459]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government’s Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The department launched reforms are aimed at strengthening teacher quality, its consultation on proposals for reforming key stage 4 providing additional early support for reading, and qualifications on 17 September. A copy of the introducing a world class English curriculum and consultation, which runs until 10 December, has been qualifications. placed in the House Libraries. The Government have introduced stronger financial The consultation opens up our proposals for reform incentives to attract the best graduates to train as for wide discussion and we are seeking views from teachers in subjects, including English, where they are across the sector and from the general public. We needed most. They have also published new teacher recognise the importance of taking the views of teachers, standards, which include a requirement to be able to pupils and parents into account as part of this discussion “demonstrate an understanding of and take responsibility and will be doing so throughout the consultation for promoting high standards of literacy, articulacy period. and the correct use of standard English, whatever the teacher’s specialist subject”. Education: Pre-school The new national curriculum will give teachers Question more freedom to teach imaginatively. The government Asked by Lord Quirk have already published the new draft programme of study for English at key stages 1-2. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are For pupils in the early stage of primary education, their plans to improve pre-school provision the Government are providing up to £3,000 of match- throughout the country; and whether this involves funding to schools with key stage 1 pupils to enable support for the Early Intervention Foundation them to buy effective systematic synthetic phonics Consortium. [HL2369] products and/or training. A phonics screening check has been introduced to ensure that children who need The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for extra help are identified and can receive additional Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): Improving the quality support. of, and access to, early education is one of the coalition We are also making changes to emphasise the Government’s priorities. importance of correct spelling and grammar, including In September 2012 we introduced a revised Early a new grammar, punctuation and spelling test which is YearsFoundation Stage (EYFS), which sets the standards being introduced at key stage 2 next year. We have to ensure that children learn and develop well and are recently announced that all secondary schools will kept healthy and safe. It will reduce bureaucracy and receive £500 for each pupil who has not reached level 4 paperwork, allowing practitioners to spend more time in reading or mathematics at the start of year 7, to with children. It places a stronger emphasis on learning enable them to catch up with their peers by being given and development, with a clearer focus on the key areas small-group or individual support. At key stage 4, we of learning and development that are essential for are introducing more rigorous and challenging English children’s healthy development and readiness for school. baccalaureate certificates (EBCs), which provide greater Assessment at age five has been simplified. The new differentiation for the most able; make proper demands EYFS also encourages stronger engagement between for literacy and numeracy; and prepare students to professionals and parents, and promotes earlier progress to further study. Those who do not achieve intervention for children who need extra help through the benchmarks expected by employers and higher the introduction of a progress check for two year-olds. WA 49 Written Answers[23 OCTOBER 2012] Written Answers WA 50

All children aged three and four are entitled to delivered to anyone who requests them. Details of the 15 hours of free early education a week for 38 weeks a website and how to request paper copies using a free year. Revised statutory guidance introduced in September phone line are on the advertisements and will appear 2012 sets out minimum quality standards which free on every voter’s poll card. entitlement providers will have to meet. From September Returning officers have a duty to encourage 2013, 20% of two year-olds will benefit from the same participation in the police and crime commissioners entitlement to free early education, with 40% (about elections, with regard to guidance issued by the Electoral 260,000 children) benefiting the year after. Commission. The Electoral Commission has also issued On 19 June 2012, the Prime Minister announced guidance for candidates on how to run their campaigns. the establishment of a commission on childcare which Raising awareness of candidates and their proposals is will report this autumn. The commission is looking at for the candidates themselves and the Home Office how to reduce the costs of childcare for working will not be issuing any further guidance for returning families and burdens on childcare providers, without officers. compromising quality of provision. The Government have competitively tendered for the establishment of an early intervention foundation and that process is still underway. Employment: Young People Question Education: Public Examinations Asked by Lord Janner of Braunstone Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Asked by Lord Quirk they are taking to increase employment opportunities for the younger generation, in the light of more To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps people continuing to work until they are older. they are taking to address issues of integrity and [HL2585] accountability in the regulation of public examinations in England. [HL2281] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The YouthContract, Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Office of worth almost £1 billion, was introduced in April 2012 Qualifications and Examinations Regulation (Ofqual) and it will provide nearly half a million new opportunities regulates qualifications, examinations and assessments to young unemployed people over the next three years. in England. It is Ofqual’s duty to ensure that qualifications It will provide 160,000 wage incentives, an extra 250,000 are correctly valued and understood, now and in the work experience places and an extra 20,000 apprentice future. Ofqual is a non-ministerial government incentive payments taking the total number to 40,000. department, accountable directly to Parliament. The Youth Contract builds on existing support Ministers have publicly committed to restoring available through Jobcentre Plus and the Work confidence in the exams system by strengthening Ofqual Programme, enabling young unemployed people to to make it a more assertive and powerful regulator. look for work, gain work experience and skills, and New powers within the Education Act 2011 give Ofqual find real, lasting jobs. the ability to fine awarding organisations.

Elections: Police and Crime Commissioners Energy: Prices Question Question Asked by Lord Hylton Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will To ask Her Majesty’s Government how recent raise public awareness and participation in the elections energy price increases have affected Big Energy for police and crime commissioners; in particular, Saving Week. [HL2643] how the central website and free phone line will be publicised; and whether they will issue guidance to returning officers on the discretion they may have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to ensure that details of candidates and their proposals of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma): The are known to voters. [HL2567] aim of Big Energy Saving Week is to publicise and put people in touch with sources of help that can reduce The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home their energy bills. Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): The Home Office Key messages are that people can save money on has launched an advertising campaign, including TV their bills by taking advantage of free and subsidised and radio, which we estimate will reach 85% of voters insulation offered by the large energy companies and across the 41 forces to explain the reforms and encourage by switching to the cheapest tariffs. The recent energy participation in the elections. Information about every price increases have highlighted the importance of this candidate will be published online and paper copies campaign and its messages. WA 51 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 52

Forced Marriage grades who are no longer subject to the student number Question control. The number of places available is determined by the above HEFCE controls rather than through the Asked by Lord Chidgey Student Loans Company. Any student who applies to Student Finance England and meets the eligibility To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps criteria is entitled to claim student support. Total they are taking to eradicate child marriage in the admissions permitted under HEFCE number controls United Kingdom. [HL2521] are greater than government planning assumptions because HEFCE experience is that when setting limits The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home for institutions with financial penalties associated with Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): The Government breaching those limits, there is a tendency for the are committed to tackling the practice of forced marriage, sector, in aggregate, to fall short. including child (or early) marriage and providing the Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford best protection possible to victims. Our Forced Marriage Unit (FMU) operates both in To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the UK, where support is provided to any individual, full-time undergraduates funded by the Higher and overseas, where consular assistance is provided to Education Funding Council for England or the British nationals, including dual nationals. Last year Student Loans Company were aged (1) between the FMU provided advice or support in almost 1,500 18 and 24, and (2) over 24, in the academic years (a) cases. 2010–11, (b) 2011–12, and (c) 2012–13. [HL2640]

Government: Cabinet Ministers Baroness Garden of Frognal: According to Higher Question Education Statistics Agency (HESA) and Individualised Learner Record (ILR) data, the number of full-time Asked by Lord Jopling UK and EU undergraduates funded by the Higher To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Education Funding Council for England in academic Government Chief Whip in the House of Commons year 2010-11 was: continues to be the senior Minister outside the Age Group No. of fundable students (000s) Cabinet. [HL2462] Under 18 [1] 2 Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I refer the noble Lord to 18 to 24 [1] 823 the list of Her Majesty’s Government on the No. 10 Over 24 [1] 82 website at http://www.number10.gov.uk/the-coalition/ Other [2] 13 the-government/ which sets out the members of the Total 920 Cabinet and Ministers who attend Cabinet. HESA and ILR data are unavailable for academic Higher Education: Funding years 2011-12 and 2012-13. Questions The number of English domiciled students studying in the UK or EU domiciled studying in England Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford taking a loan from the Student Loans Company (SLC) to pay for tuition fees is shown in the table below: To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many places were available for full-time undergraduates, Age Group Fee loan borrowers (000s) funded by the Higher Education Funding Council for England or the Student Loans Company, in Under 18 [1] 1 (1) 2010–11, (2) 2011–12, and (3) 2012–13. [HL2639] 18 to 24 [1] 737 Over 24 [1] 87 Baroness Garden of Frognal: HEFCE provide a Total 825 block grant for teaching to institutions. It is up to institutions to decide how much of this is spent on SLC data are unavailable for academic years 2011-12 full-time, part-time, undergraduate or postgraduate and 2012-13. students. [1] Ages taken as at start of AY 2010-11 ie 31.08.2010. Since 2009-10, HEFCE has had controls on full-time Under 18—started before 18th birthday—date of birth after undergraduate entrants in place for each institution, 31.08.1992. with penalties for over-recruitment. The total student 18 to 24—started on or after 18th but before 25th birthday—date number controls have been: of birth between 01.09.1985 and 31.08.1992. (1) 2010-11: 364,537; Over 24—started on or after 25th birthday—date of birth prior (2) 2011-12: 364,325; and to 01.09.1985. (3) 2012-13: 353,415 Tuition fee loans are paid to higher education institutions on behalf of English domiciled students attending full-time courses Note that the 2012-13 figure is an implied student in the UK and EU domiciled students studying full-time courses number control including places awarded through the in England. margin and estimated numbers of entrants with AAB [2] Age at start of AY 2010-11 unknown. WA 53 Written Answers[23 OCTOBER 2012] Written Answers WA 54

Illiteracy Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Immediately following Question the inspection, this issue was considered by the service provider and action taken. Changes to improve quality Asked by Lord Empey of recording of full searches and procedures have been implemented with a senior manager responsible for To ask Her Majesty’s Government which authorisation. These actions are monitored through a departments have ring-fenced funds to combat monthly audit. illiteracy; and, in each case, how much is ring- Individuals detained will only be subject to a full fenced. [HL2528] search on specific intelligence and risk assessment. The centre manager is seeking to modify the public entrance to provide a more discreet searching area. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Officers conducting searches are all appropriately trained for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Marland): and required to conduct searches with regard to religious Further education colleges and providers have a single and cultural sensitivities. adult skills budget providing them with the flexibility A service improvement plan in response to the full to respond to local learner and employer needs. There recommendations from the inspection report has been are no separate budgets for adult literacy provision. completed and will be implemented. The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills does not hold information on other government departments’ spend on literacy. Milk Question Asked by Lord Knight of Weymouth Immigration Removal Centres: Strip To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Searches they have made of the benefits of the European Questions Union school milk subsidy scheme. [HL2565]

Asked by Baroness Stern The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De they have taken since HM Chief Inspector of Prisons Mauley): The European Court of Auditors carried out reported in August that at Dover Immigration an evaluation of the EU school milk and school fruit Removal Centre the reasons for carrying out strip schemes in 2011 (Special Report No 10/2011—Are the searches were not adequately recorded and that a School Milk and School Fruit Schemes effective?). The high number of strip searches were authorised European Court of Auditors assessed the effectiveness retrospectively. [HL2530] of both schemes, examining whether the EU subsidies have a direct impact on the beneficiaries’ consumption and if the schemes are likely to meet their educational objectives and influence future eating habits. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home A full report of the evaluation, including the formal Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach): Immediately following reply of the EU Commission, is available on the the inspection, this issue was considered by the service European Court of Auditors website at: http://eca.europa. provider and action taken. Changes to improve quality eu/portal/pls/portal/docs/l/9390724.PDF. The UK of recording of full searches and procedures have been experience is reflected in the Court of Auditor’s report. implemented with a senior manager responsible for authorisation. These actions are monitored through a monthly audit. North Korea Individuals detained will only be subject to a full Questions search on specific intelligence and risk assessment. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The centre manager is seeking to modify the public entrance to provide a more discreet searching area. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial Officers conducting searches are all appropriately trained support they will provide for radio broadcasts and and required to conduct searches with regard to religious other media transmission into North Korea, either and cultural sensitivities. by radio stations run by North Korean exiles or by A service improvement plan in response to the full broadcasters such as the BBC. [HL2428] recommendations from the inspection report has been completed and will be implemented. Lord Wallace of Saltaire: We do not currently provide Asked by Baroness Stern any financial support for media transmissions into North Korea. Given the difficulty in measuring the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes impact of media transmission, the possibility of signals they have made to the arrangements for visitors to being blocked, and that others are investing in Dover Immigration Removal Centre following the broadcasting into North Korea, the British Government report of HM Chief Inspector of Prisons that the consider that they will get better value for their available searching of visitors was not carried out in funds by investing them in English language training private. [HL2531] and scholarships programmes. WA 55 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 56

Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Railways: Fatalities Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with the government of North Korea Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno regarding the case of the relatives of the defector Mr Oh Kil Nam, whom the United Nations Working To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Group on Arbitrary Detention concluded on 2 May fatal accidents were recorded on United Kingdom 2012 were being detained arbitrarily. [HL2430] railway tracks in (1) 2000, (2) 2005, (3) 2009, (4) 2010, and (5) 2011. [HL2626]

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: To date, the British Earl Attlee: The information requested is listed Government have not raised the case of the relatives below: of Dr Oh Kil Nam with the North Korean Government. We do, however, regularly raise our wider concerns Year No of Fatalities about reported human rights abuses in North Korea 2000 295 with the North Korean Government, both in London 2005 273 and Pyongyang. Most recently on 28 September 2012, 2009 285 our outgoing ambassador raised our concerns in a 2010 284 meeting with Kim Yong-Nam, the chairman of the 2011 279 Presidium of the Supreme People’s Assembly. Railways: Franchises Questions Offenders: Learning Asked by Lord Bradshaw Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Asked by Lord Ramsbotham the “Stock-take of Travel Time Variability” research To ask Her Majesty’s Government in the light of paper cost; why it was published on 24 September their 2011 review of offender learning what is their 2012; what caused the delay in publication from the assessment of the impact of the fourth phase of the report date of 2 November 2010; what actions have Offenders’ Learning and Skills Services contracts been taken as a result of the report; and whether (OLASS 4) on the provision of distance learning the report was used in the assessment of bids for the and arts training in the criminal justice system. west coast main line franchise. [HL2491] [HL2394] Earl Attlee: The Stock-take of Travel Time Variability research paper cost £11,384.60 to produce (including Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: New Offenders’ Learning VAT). The report was published as soon as it was and Skills Service (OLASS) contracts have been in feasible to do so. The report adds to the Department place in seven of the 10 units of procurement since for Transport’s evidence base on reliability. No specific 1 August 2012. New contracts in the three remaining action follows its publication, but it will inform any units of procurement begin on 1 November 2012. It is future consideration of reliability analysis. The report therefore too soon to form an assessment of the was not used in the assessment of bids for the west impact of these new contracts on the provision of coast main line franchise. distance learning and arts provision in custody. Asked by Lord Bradshaw Providers are required to support prisoners undertaking distance learning. In addition, the Virtual Campus, a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what decision very secure, web-based interactive learning tool, is was made in the original awarding of the West now live in 101 prisons and is in the process of being Coast main line franchise to First Group regarding rolled out to all prisons where feasible. A wide selection the future of moderation of competition, particularly of distance learning materials, including Open University in the Birmingham area, as is currently in place for content, is accessible via the Virtual Campus. OLASS Virgin. [HL2492] 4 contracts require providers to develop innovative ways of engaging more learners with the Virtual Campus Earl Attlee: Moderation of competition ceased with and to contribute to the expansion and development the expiry of the original west coast trains track access of content. agreement on 31 March 31 2012. The present InterCity Curriculum design is still in progress across all sites west coast track access agreement, which lasts until and will be an ongoing activity. There has been no 2022, has no moderation of competition provision. reduction in the overall OLASS budget for 2012-13 so, Indeed, there is now no moderation of competition although the focus on employability has been emphasised, clause in any track access agreement. there should still be capacity to continue the funding Asked by Lord Berkeley of appropriate arts provision. Under the local commissioning principles that now underpin OLASS, To ask Her Majesty’s Government who else will prison governors have a decisive role in determining be appointed to join the study into rail passenger the learning offer in their establishments. franchising chaired by Richard Brown; what are the WA 57 Written Answers[23 OCTOBER 2012] Written Answers WA 58

terms of reference of the study; and how will other Railways: West Coast Franchise industry bodies be able to submit comments to the Questions study. [HL2572] Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours

Earl Attlee: The Secretary of State for Transport To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions wrote to Richard Brown on 15 October asking him to took place, and what correspondence was exchanged, lead an independent review of the rail franchising between Ministers and civil servants in the Department programme and setting the terms of reference for the of Transport on the issue of technical flaws in the review. A copy of this letter was placed in the Libraries west coast main line franchise bid process between of House. 15 August and 4 September; and whether the review It will be for Richard Brown himself to determine by Sam Laidlaw will consider that material.[HL2535] who will join him on the review team and whether or how to draw upon the advice or comments of industry Earl Attlee: I refer the noble Lord to the statement bodies. made on 15 October and the terms of reference for the Asked by Lord Dykes Laidlaw inquiry into the InterCity West Coast franchise competition, which have been laid in the Library of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they the House. Ministers were only made aware of the full will return the west coast main line contract to the extent and impact of the technical flaws in the InterCity previous franchiser owner in the interim before the West Coast franchising process on Tuesday 2 October franchise is retendered, or invite new applications and announced the cancellation of the franchising for tender, including Virgin Trains. [HL2605] process on 3 October. Asked by Lord Rosser Earl Attlee: I refer the noble Lord to the Statement To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the made by the Secretary of State on 15 October 2012 inquiry into the operation of the recent west coast (Official Report, col. 46-47) that the Department for main line franchising process will include an Transport is commencing negotiations with Virgin investigation of the role of the Department of Rail Group with a view to it remaining as operator of Transport’s Departmental Board, including the non- passenger services for the west coast main line for a executive directors, in considering, examining and short period. overseeing the adequacy and appropriateness of Asked by Lord Bowness the governance arrangements for the franchising process used for the west coast main line. [HL2549] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Earl Attlee on 10 October (Official Report, col. 1022), whether train operations and Earl Attlee: I refer the noble Lord to the statement track infrastructure may be conducted by the same made on 15 October and the terms of reference for the institution; and, if so, whether that institution would Laidlaw inquiry into the InterCity West Coast franchise be required to account separately for each competition, which have been laid in the Library of activity. [HL2628] the House. Asked by Lord Berkeley Earl Attlee: EU legislation requires separation of To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light accounts between track and train. It also requires that of the delayed award of the franchise for the west certain charging and capacity allocation functions are coast main line, what service pattern they expect to kept separate from train operation functions. The operate in the December 2013 timetable. [HL2571] implications for railway structures are complex, and I am therefore writing to my noble friend Lady O’Cathain to explain in greater detail and will place a copy of the Earl Attlee: The details of the short Intercity West letter in the Library of the House. Coast franchise agreement, which is the agreement that will be in place by December 2013, are yet to be finalised. It is anticipated that the December 2013 service pattern will be the same as the pattern that will Railways: Wales apply from December 2012. Question Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Research: Finch Group To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have had discussions about the closure of railway Questions lines and railway stations in Wales. [HL2623] Asked by Lord Clement-Jones To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport has not they have made of the financial impact on United had any discussions about the closure of any railway Kingdom universities of Research Council UK’s lines or stations in Wales. This would be a matter for implementation of the Finch Group proposals on the Welsh Government. open access to research publications. [HL2439] WA 59 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 60

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment The Government accepted this conclusion. A public they have made of the distribution of the costs of library open access initiative with national coverage implementing the Finch Group proposals. [HL2440] did form part of the Finch Group’s report. Publishers are now working to develop a walk-in public library To ask Her Majesty’s Government what initiative as part of the balanced package of consideration they have given to the implementation recommendations agreed within the Finch Group. Subject of a national licensing agreement in the United to RCUK’s final arrangements for the provision of Kingdom with the major global research publishers publication funds at research institutions, a nationwide as an alternative to the Finch Group proposals. public library OA initiative could become available [HL2441] during 2013.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Roads: Speed Limits for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Marland): A financial impact analysis of the Finch Group’s Question recommendations was included in the Finch Group’s Asked by Lord Dykes report. Included (at annex E to the report) is a financial analysis, by Cambridge Economic Policy Associates, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of the impact of the group’s preferred form of open intend to increase speed limits on United Kingdom access (OA), namely Gold OA which entails the payment motorways. [HL2503] of an article processing charge (APC) by the university/ researcher to the publisher/learned society. BIS also Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport is currently undertook its own internal independent “Economic working on an impact assessment of the 80 mph speed Analysis of Alternative Options for the UK Science limit on sections of the motorway network with variable and Research System”which informed the Government’s speed limits and considering the criteria for where and consideration of the Finch Report and the Government’s under what conditions the 80 mph speed limit might stated policy preference for Gold OA. be applied. We are aiming to consult on this later in An assessment of the distribution of the costs of the year alongside the broader work on a roads strategy. implementing the Finch Group proposals has been made by Research Councils UK. RCUK’s analysis is Schools: Academies designed to ensure that the distribution of the block Question funding to be allocated by RCUK to UK universities (and other UK research institutions) to pay the APCs Asked by Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne that will be incurred when complying with the research To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light councils’ preference for Gold OA, is commensurate of the allegations of exam cheating at Kingsdale with a research institution’s/university’s level of research Foundation School in Dulwich, whether they will activity. The details of their implementation policy consider giving Ofsted the power to inspect academy will be announced in the coming weeks by the research chains. [HL2460] councils. However, to pump prime the creation of publication funds at universities, the Government made The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for £10 million available through RCUK in September Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The allegations of 2012. exam cheating at Kingsdale Foundation School are a The option for introducing a national licensing matter for the awarding bodies to investigate rather agreement was considered by the Finch Group (a sub- than Ofsted. There are no current plans to give Ofsted group specifically looked at this option), but it was a specific power to inspect academy chains and, indeed, concluded that such a licence is unlikely to be practicable Kingsdale Foundation School is not part of an academy and that the costs would probably be high. chain. Tuesday 23 October 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Crime: Economic Crime ...... 5 Justice: Sentencing...... 9

EU: Balance of Competences...... 5 Madagascar ...... 10

EU: Schengen Evaluation Mechanism...... 8 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 ...... 11

HGV Road User Levy Bill...... 8 Specified Proceedings Provisions ...... 12

Tuesday 23 October 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan...... 45 Government: Cabinet Ministers...... 51

Animals: Micro-chipping Pets ...... 45 Higher Education: Funding...... 51

Armed Forces: Commemoration ...... 45 Illiteracy ...... 53

Bees ...... 46 Immigration Removal Centres: Strip Searches...... 53

Civil Service: Staff ...... 46 Milk...... 54 North Korea ...... 54 Education: English ...... 47 Offenders: Learning...... 55 Education: GCSEs...... 48 Railways: Fatalities ...... 56 Education: Pre-school...... 48 Railways: Franchises...... 56 Education: Public Examinations...... 49 Railways: Wales ...... 57 Elections: Police and Crime Commissioners ...... 49 Railways: West Coast Franchise ...... 58 Employment: Young People...... 50 Research: Finch Group...... 58 Energy: Prices ...... 50 Roads: Speed Limits ...... 60 Forced Marriage ...... 51 Schools: Academies ...... 60 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL2279] ...... 47 [HL2456] ...... 45

[HL2281] ...... 49 [HL2459] ...... 48

[HL2369] ...... 48 [HL2460] ...... 60

[HL2394] ...... 55 [HL2462] ...... 51

[HL2428] ...... 54 [HL2491] ...... 56

[HL2430] ...... 55 [HL2492] ...... 56

[HL2439] ...... 58 [HL2503] ...... 60

[HL2440] ...... 59 [HL2521] ...... 51

[HL2441] ...... 59 [HL2528] ...... 53 Col. No. Col. No. [HL2530] ...... 53 [HL2610] ...... 46

[HL2531] ...... 53 [HL2623] ...... 57

[HL2535] ...... 58 [HL2626] ...... 56

[HL2549] ...... 58 [HL2628] ...... 57

[HL2565] ...... 54 [HL2635] ...... 46

[HL2567] ...... 49 [HL2638] ...... 45

[HL2571] ...... 58 [HL2639] ...... 51

[HL2572] ...... 57 [HL2640] ...... 52

[HL2585] ...... 50 [HL2643] ...... 50

[HL2605] ...... 57 [HL2650] ...... 46 Volume 740 Tuesday No. 53 23 October 2012

CONTENTS

Tuesday 23 October 2012 Questions European Defence Agency...... 131 Small and Medium-sized Enterprises ...... 134 NHS: Accident and Emergency Services ...... 136 Taxation: International Companies...... 139 Trusts (Capital and Income) Bill [HL] Third Reading ...... 141 Bovine Tuberculosis Statement...... 142 Infrastructure (Financial Assistance) Bill Second Reading and Remaining Stages...... 153 Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules Motion of Regret...... 178 Grand Committee Official Secrets Act 1989 (Prescription) (Amendment) Order 2012 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 1 Forestry Commissioners (Climate Change Functions) (Scotland) (Consequential Modifications) Order 2012 Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 4 Cyprus Question for Short Debate...... GC 9 Housing: Park Homes Question for Short Debate...... GC 24 Written Statements ...... WS 5 Written Answers...... WA 4 5