Tuesday Volume 539 31 January 2012 No. 258

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 31 January 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 655 31 JANUARY 2012 656

demanding. We want to go further by seeing a clear House of Commons punitive element in every sentence, and we are consulting about that. Tuesday 31 January 2012 Several hon. Members rose—

The House met at half-past Two o’clock Mr Speaker: Order. This question is about Kettering, from which Carshalton and Wallington and Manchester PRAYERS are a long way away. Law Centres [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS What steps he plans to take to support law centres. [92472] LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Further consideration of Bill, as amended, opposed and (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Ministry of Justice does deferred until Tuesday 7 February (Standing Order No. 20). not provide direct support for law centres. However, law centres are able to bid for contracts issued by the Legal LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR Services Commission to provide legal services in specified LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) areas of law and will continue to be able to do so in the future.

TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL My Department is also working closely with the PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) Cabinet Office to support the cross-Government review Second Readings opposed and deferred until Tuesday into the funding of the not-for-profit sector announced 7 February (Standing Order No. 20). on 21 November last year. Lilian Greenwood: I thank the Minister for that reply, but what would he say to my local law centre in Nottingham, Oral Answers to Questions which, as a result of his legal aid changes, says it will no longer be able to offer specialist advice to people experiencing problems at work, with debts or with benefits? When our local citizens advice bureau is already JUSTICE hugely overstretched, does that not mean that hundreds of people—particularly vulnerable people—will be unable The Secretary of State was asked— to get the advice they need and will be denied access to justice? Community Projects (Kettering) Mr Djanogly: Specifically, legal aid will be provided 1. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How many for a lot of debt advice after our changes. We are offenders served part or all of their sentence working reducing our spend on legal aid, and law centres will be on community projects in Kettering constituency in affected by that, but the Government recognise and 2011; and for which organisations work was carried highly value the important role of not-for-profit out. [92471] organisations such as law centres. That is why we launched a £107 million transition fund last year and the £20 million The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick advice services fund this year. It is why the Cabinet Herbert): Four hundred and five offenders completed Office has also announced a review of not-for-profit all or some of their compulsory unpaid work or community advice centres, which is a welcome and important payback in Kettering last year. Twelve organisations development. benefited, including the local wildlife trust, St Mary’s church, Mind and the British Heart Foundation. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Is it not Mr Hollobone: It is clearly beneficial for offenders an assumption behind the Government’s reforms that and the local community for offenders to do constructive the availability of advice needs to replace a great deal of work in the community, but will my right hon. Friend litigation? If that is to be achieved, is it not necessary to agree to visit Kettering with me to see some of those ensure that there is a long-term, not merely a short-term, offenders in action so that we can really see whether solution to some of the funding problems of law centres they are putting their backs to the wheel and doing this and citizens advice bureaux? work properly? Mr Djanogly: My right hon. Friend makes an important Nick Herbert: I am happy to accept my hon. Friend’s point. We are changing the way funding works and invitation to visit Kettering and to see a scheme with looking for alternatives to be taken up. However, we him. It is important that community sentences are appreciate that, in the meantime, while the reorganisations punitive and that they are properly enforced. We are are happening, there is a need to support law centres, increasing the maximum length of curfew requirements which is why we are looking at transitional provisions to and making community payback more rigorous and ease that passage. 657 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 658

Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Writing in Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the yesterday’s Daily Mail, Matthew Elliott, the chief executive Justice Secretary agree that much of the media speculation of the TaxPayers Alliance, pointed out that: and attacks on the European Court of Human Rights “advice costing £80 to deal with a housing problem can save are damaging to the interests of many people all over thousands for councils who are legally required to house homeless Europe who are suffering serious human rights abuses? families…cutting £10.5m for legal aid in clinical negligence cases This country, which prides itself on having a Human will cause knock-on costs to the NHS of £28.5m.” Rights Act, should support the European convention He says: and the Court, and recognise that it is in everybody’s “Almost everyone who has looked at these particular cuts”— interest that we protect human rights in this country, as well as in Hungary, Russia or wherever else they are even Norman Tebbit— under threat. “thinks that too many of them will end up costing taxpayers more than they save.” Mr Clarke: This country is a great advocate of human Is he right? rights throughout the world, and should continue to be so. The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and I Mr Djanogly: No, he is not right. The figures have have confirmed in recent speeches at Strasbourg our been repeated by the Law Society. The point is that legal commitment to the European convention on human help is not the same as legal aid. We certainly appreciate rights and our desire to see human rights maintained all the strong need for legal help so that problems can be the way from this country to the Russian Federation, dealt with early, and that is why we are very supportive which is the furthest-east member. However, we seek to of not-for-profit organisations. strengthen the Court by making it operate properly. It should concentrate on the important cases and those European Court of Human Rights that raise serious issues of principle obtaining to the convention. At the moment, it has 150,000 cases in arrears. It takes years to get them heard, and it sometimes 3. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) gives judgments despite the whole issue having been (Con): What steps he is taking to promote reform of properly considered by national institutions and national the European Court of Human Rights. [92474] courts.

The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will my (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The United Kingdom has made right hon. and learned Friend be visiting judges in the reform of the Court the top priority for our current European Court of Human Rights to explain the agenda chairmanship of the Council of Europe. Our aim is to for the British chairmanship of the Council of Europe? secure agreement on a package of reform measures. We When our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited have been talking to many member states and to key Strasbourg—very successfully—last Wednesday and gave figures in the Court and the Council of Europe, and we a brilliant speech, delegates expressed concern that he are reasonably confident that we can gain agreement. did not have time to visit the Court itself.

Stephen Phillips: I am extremely grateful to my right Mr Clarke: First, I am delighted that my hon. Friend hon. and learned Friend for that answer. He will have and I agree that the Prime Minister gave a brilliant seen that the Prime Minister rightly condemned the speech in Strasbourg last week. It went down very well Court’s decision effectively blocking the deportation of there. Yes, I meet judges. As I mentioned in an earlier Abu Qatada despite the assurances that the United answer, I hold discussions with judges. There is widespread Kingdom obtained from Jordan. How long does he acceptance in Strasbourg of the need for reform, so expect this reform process to take, and what steps are long as people are satisfied that we will continue to being taken now to ensure that the Court does not uphold the convention and we regard the Court as the torpedo decisions of the UK courts in a way that right forum in which to consider serious issues of principle undermines rather than supports human rights? in all 47 member states. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was unable to meet judges, Mr Clarke: My hon. and learned Friend is at least as but I am sure that I can facilitate the opportunity for good a lawyer as I am—and practised more recently him to do so, if he or the judges wish it. However, the too—and will know that cases are often more complicated Foreign Secretary, the Attorney-General and I are in than they appear. We actually won the Abu Qatada case touch with the judges and our opposite numbers in all on the question of the assurances that we got about his the relevant countries. possible torture. Irritatingly, we then lost it on a separate issue about whether prosecution evidence against him Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): May I ask the Justice had been obtained by torture. Obviously, the Government, Secretary for a short answer to a straightforward question? led by the Home Secretary and advised by the Attorney- Does he share the apparent view of the Prime Minister General, are considering what to do next to take the and many of his Back Benchers that if the Government case further. The reform does not turn on one case. cannot persuade the other 46 Council of Europe members However, one of the key reforms that we are urging is to reform the European Court of Human Rights, as set that the Strasbourg Court should not just be regarded out last week, the UK should withdraw from the European as a court of appeal after the full process has been gone convention on human rights? through in this country’s courts and issues of human rights have been properly considered. The issue that my Mr Clarke: The Prime Minister has never expressed hon. Friend raises is at the heart of the case that we are that view to me or publicly, so far as I am aware, and if arguing with our colleagues in the Council of Europe. he did, I would not agree with it. 659 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 660

Foreign National Prisoners Minister and the Government, but what progress have the Government made on ensuring that the EU agreement is implemented across all EU states? 4. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What steps he is taking to transfer more foreign national prisoners to Mr Blunt: One of the reasons why I was visiting the their home countries. [92475] European Union Commission on Friday and speaking to the official responsible for implementation of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice agreement was to help deliver that. It is just a slight pity (Mr Crispin Blunt): The Government are committed to that in the negotiations undertaken by the last removing more foreign national offenders at the earliest Administration, they managed to give Poland a five-year opportunity. Last week I met the European Union delay and Ireland a complete opt-out. Commission, and the Justice Secretary met European Union Justice Ministers, to impress upon them the Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): importance of member states implementing the new In designing prisoner transfer agreements, will the Minister European Union prisoner transfer agreement promptly. ensure that the legitimate expectations of the victims of We continue to negotiate prisoner transfer agreements crime in this country are satisfied? Too often we find with countries outside the European Union. We are them fearful that their natural desire for retributive also examining our offender management processes justice is going unfulfilled. here in the United Kingdom, which will help to identify how more foreign national offenders can be transferred Mr Blunt: That is an important part of any consideration to their home countries. about the transfer of prisoners, and one that I certainly give attention to in considering applications that are Mr Spellar: Is not the reality that the number of made to me. foreign prisoners being removed is actually dropping, and that although we signed an agreement with Jamaica Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): As the hon. Member in 2007, Jamaica has still not got round to ratifying and for Banbury (Tony Baldry) said, the process for removal acting on it? When is the Minister going to get a grip of should begin at the time of sentence. That was one of the situation? the recommendations of the Select Committee on Home Affairs in our last report. At the moment, the whole Mr Blunt: I regret that we are having to deal with the process starts far too late. We need better liaison between inheritance of the legal instruments that were negotiated the UK Border Agency and the prison authorities. and presented to us by the last Administration. The Jamaican prisoner transfer agreement is an example of Mr Blunt: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman that. Even if the Jamaican Parliament passed the legislation and to his Select Committee for its work in this area. He to implement and ratify that agreement—which is beyond will know just how multi-faceted this all is, and I am the control of this Government, I might gently point grateful for the continuing attention of his Committee. out—it would still require the consent of the Jamaican The points he makes are entirely reasonable and I will prisoners in our prisons to go home under that agreement. be following them up. That would not be forthcoming, so we need a rather more effective piece of negotiation, which is all part of Free Legal Advice the strategy that we are putting in place with the 20 countries from which the largest number of foreign national 5. Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): What offenders in our prisons originate, to get some proper, assessment he has made of the availability of free legal joined-up governmental attention on this issue. advice. [92476]

Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): When the sentencing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice judge orders an individual to be deported, why can that (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Ministry of Justice is judge not make a finding of fact as to their nationality, responsible for legally-aided advice services through its so that, as of that moment, the Home Office and the relationship with the Legal Services Commission. This Ministry of Justice can make it clear to the high commission is publicly funded legal advice, rather than “free” legal or embassy concerned that that prisoner will be returned advice. “Free”, or pro bono, legal advice is not within to that country at the conclusion of their sentence? the scope of the Ministry’s ambit. Legally aided lawyers do not act for free; they act for money and are paid for by the taxpayer, so it is important that we get value Mr Blunt: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for money for the taxpayer. for that suggestion, which is certainly one that I will be taking up in our ongoing examination and review, so Stephen Timms: I am grateful to the Minister for his that we improve the current, unsatisfactory state of visit last year to the excellent advice service at Community affairs with foreign national offenders as quickly as we Links that is used by my constituents. Is he aware that legally can. funding cuts mean that that service will stop providing all welfare benefits advice next year, shortly before the Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): May I remind the Minister massive upheaval that will follow the introduction of that it was the last, Labour Government who negotiated universal credit? Is not that a recipe for disaster? the groundbreaking EU prisoner transfer agreement, which came into force last December, to transfer foreign Mr Djanogly: The legal aid scope changes will not European prisoners back to their countries during their come in until April 2013, but that is indeed something sentence? We have had lots of tough talk from the that is on the horizon. I have visited the right hon. 661 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 662

Gentleman’s local law centre, and it is a very good Charlotte Leslie: Victims often feel that their rights organisation. As I said to him the last time he asked are taken less seriously by the system than those of the about this issue, changes are going to have to take place, perpetrator. What measures are the Government taking and that is why we are looking to put in place transitional to ensure that victims, especially those of violent rape, arrangements. and their families are financially compensated and supported following the often life-shattering traumas Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): The legal that they have experienced? aid budget amounts to a spend of £39 per person in the UK, while it is nearer to £5 in Spain, France and Mr Clarke: I announced yesterday that we were making Germany. Does the Minister agree that the present changes to the compensation scheme, but we are making position in the UK is wholly unsustainable, and that no changes whatever to the compensation for victims of savings have to be made in the light of the financial rape and sexual offences at any level of the tariff. We circumstances that we inherited from Labour? accept that it is important to compensate those victims, and we are trying to strengthen the support that we give Mr Djanogly: Savings do have to be made. A similar to the victims of sexual offences. We are also supporting comparison can be made with a Commonwealth country outside bodies that give support to such victims. I think such as New Zealand, where the figure is about £18 per that my hon. Friend will find that nothing I said yesterday head. We must ensure that the scarce resources are remotely reduces our commitment to the victims of spent as well as possible, and that people do not go to rape and sexual offences, and that, since we have been in court when they do not need to do so. office, we have been steadily improving the services that Victim Support we provide.

6. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): What steps his Rushanara Ali: Given that 61% of victims feel that Department is taking to support victims of crime. the justice system is ineffective, and that the victims [92477] code will not be placed on a statutory basis, how will the rights of victims be properly protected by this 9. Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con): What Government? steps his Department is taking to support victims of crime. [92481] Mr Clarke: I do not think that 51% of victims have a factual basis for saying that. I share the hon. Lady’s 11. Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab): concern, however, that whenever questions are asked, if What steps his Department is taking to support victims they are asked in the right way, we get that kind of of crime. [92483] answer. We have to get across to the public that the system does indeed punish offenders properly and attempt 17. Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): to reform them, and that we are steadily attempting to What steps his Department is taking to support victims improve the support that we give to victims. It is extremely of crime. [92489] important that the criminal justice system should give the highest regard to victims, because protecting and The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice giving justice to them and their families is one of the (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Yesterday, in a statement to the principal aims of the service. House, I launched a consultation on far-reaching proposals on the support provided to victims and witnesses of Mr Burrowes: Will the implementation of the crime. Government’s welcome victims strategy ensure that convicted offenders take personal responsibility for their Derek Twigg: The prisoner who murdered the husband crimes and make reparations to victims? Will it also, of my constituent, Helen Hill, is coming to end of his once and for all, take out of circulation the dreadful tariff and is currently undergoing day release. The term “victimless crime”? exclusion zone that my constituent has asked to be applied to the murderer has been ignored. If the Government are serious about giving full rights to the Mr Clarke: I share my hon. Friend’s view of the victims of crime, should they not ensure that victims’ significance of this issue so that, wherever possible, wishes on exclusion zones are adhered to? criminals should make reparation for their crime and compensation should be paid to the victim. We are Mr Clarke: We are very serious about ensuring that looking to take further action to reinforce the need for the system works correctly. Victims should be given courts to try to make a compensation order whenever information—in this case, about the possibility of the possible, and we are looking at ways of steadily improving offender being released—and consulted on their views. how we collect the money from compensation orders There are arrangements, through the probation service, when they are made. We are seeing steady improvement, for liaising with the victim. Of course, I cannot guarantee but we need to go further. that the victim will always agree with the decisions that are taken, but they should be taken while keeping in Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The Secretary mind the interests of the victim and, in this case, above of State may be aware of the tragic case of my constituent, all, the need to protect her. I will happily check on what Clare Wood, who was murdered by a violent partner. It has happened in this case, but I would say to the hon. turned out that he had a huge history of domestic Gentleman that we are trying to improve the present violence against other women. Will the Secretary of system to make it live up to his expectation that full State support amendments to the Bill in the other place regard will be given to victims’ interests. to ensure that victims like Clare can in future know 663 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 664 about the history of their violent partners and make an Prison Officer Training informed decision on whether to continue in the relationship? 7. Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): What steps he is taking to encourage the inclusion of peer mentoring in Mr Clarke: That is a familiar subject, which I believe prisons as part of the training of prison officers. is being reviewed by my right hon. Friend the Home [92479] Secretary. The right of women to know whether their partner or intended husband has a long history of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice domestic violence sounds like a worthwhile cause. I (Mr Crispin Blunt): Prison officer training aims to give have no doubt that my right hon. Friend will be looking officers an awareness of the benefits of peer mentoring to the practical issues that would be involved in introducing currently provided by voluntary sector and faith an effective system. organisations, such as the Shannon Trust’s toe-by-toe reading plan and the Samaritan-trained listener scheme. Our rehabilitation policy will encourage and facilitate Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): In opposition, mentoring for offenders by ex-offenders and other members we often made reference to the terrible effect on victims of the public, as all parts of the justice system focus of crime of the fact that they thought the perpetrators more on outcomes than inputs. The early payment-by- had been sentenced to a certain term of imprisonment results pilots at Doncaster and Peterborough prisons only to find them being released half way through it. both use peer mentoring, and the experience of these Will the Secretary of State update the House on what and all other pilots will guide future training and practice. progress we have made towards honesty in sentencing? Guy Opperman: Does the Minister believe that the Mr Clarke: These conventions got worse when our expansion of private provision in prisons and the payment- opponents were in office. I say that before the right hon. by-results scheme will lead to more peer mentoring and Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) starts attacking me. better prison officer training, and that rehabilitation I, too, have expressed views in the past about honesty in rates will improve as a result? sentencing. What happens currently is that for most Mr Blunt: Yes, but the payment-by-results scheme is sentences, half the term is served in prison; beyond that, not limited to private sector prisons. We are piloting it prisoners become eligible for release, but they are on in two public sector prisons as well. The National licence and liable to recall for the full term of their Offender Management Service is to contribute £1.4 million sentence if they do not adhere to it. There are measures to eight voluntary sector organisations to help with in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders mentoring, and is also involved in a Europe-funded Bill, currently in the other place, that address the penalties project that is assessing the relative benefits of mentoring to be imposed for various offences. In place of indeterminate by peers and non-peers. sentences for public protection, for example, we are going back to how sentences used to be so that people Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Will will have long determinate sentences, and will normally the Minister consider the effectiveness of training when serve two thirds of it before they are released. That is at it comes to security issues? Will he look into how on least a step in the right direction for my hon. Friend. earth Bilal Zaheer Ahmad, who is serving 12 years in prison and was described as Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): It is fair to say that, until “a viper in our midst” she left her post in early October last year, the Victims’ by the judge who jailed him under the Terrorism Commissioner was a bit of a thorn in the side of this Act 2000, managed to send a six-page letter from his Government and this Justice Secretary in particular. Belmarsh cell that advised potential terrorists on the The consultation paper on victims and witnesses, which best way to outwit our police and security services? Will was published yesterday, was completely silent on the this latest lapse be investigated by the Justice Secretary? future of that important post. Will the Justice Secretary Mr Blunt: Of course that will be investigated, as, reassure the House that he will not abolish this important indeed, is every security breach. advocate for victims and witnesses? When will the post be filled? Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Following the tragic deaths of two teenagers at young offenders Mr Clarke: First, I can assure the right hon. Gentleman institutions in the last week, will the Minister examine that I got on excellently with Louise Casey when she the role of peer mentoring in helping people to detect served in that role; it is a pity that she went away to those who are at risk of self-harm or suicide? carry out another even more important role in dealing Mr Blunt: Of course our condolences go out to the with problem families. That can be checked with Louise families in question. However, I understand that this is Casey, but I would be surprised if she did not confirm the first time such a thing has happened on the under-18s my view. She made a contribution to policy. We are estate since 2007, and the fact that there have been two looking at this post again, and as I reminded the right tragic incidents in close succession does not mean that hon. Gentleman the last time he raised the fact that we we should not recognise the good record that has been were still considering it, the last Government legislated maintained in the intervening years. Every effort will be for it in about 2004 and then took five years before they made to learn all the lessons from what has happened appointed anybody. There is a variety of views—from during the four different types of inquiry that will take those responsible for victim support and others—on the place into each of the deaths. best way to give proper force to victims’ views in government. We are considering those views before we Mr Speaker: I call Michael Connarty. He is not here, make any announcement. so I call Dave Watts. 665 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 666

Probation Service that they do not create future victims of crime, will help us to ensure that we secure value for money, and will 10. Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): What also stimulate innovation and best practice. I think it steps he plans to take to maintain public safety when very reactionary to suggest that we should abandon the implementing his plans for the future of the Probation payment-by-results approach. Service. [92482] Toby Perkins: As the Secretary of State will know, 12. Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): What steps he plans when probation is seen to fail and ex-offenders reoffend, to take to maintain public safety when implementing it is often because the various organisations involved his plans for the future of the Probation Service. have failed to work together. What steps will he take to [92484] ensure that the marketisation of probation services, with many different providers potentially doing different 13. Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): What steps he things, does not lead to more fragmentation and more plans to take to maintain public safety when tragedies? implementing his plans for the future of the Probation Service. [92485] Mr Clarke: I agree. We normally need people to 15. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): co-operate quite closely to achieve successful outcomes What recent steps he has taken to review the work of if we are trying to reform offenders. Those who are the Probation Service; and what his policy is on the trying to attract funds by achieving successful results in reform of the service. [92487] their programmes will, I hope, enter into collaborative arrangements with other providers. It must be a good The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice thing that we are contemplating the possibility of bringing (Mr Kenneth Clarke): Public safety will always be of in more voluntary, charitable, private sector providers paramount importance when we are considering the alongside the probation service and deciding where to way in which probation services are delivered. We are channel most of our money on the basis of the success working on proposals to deliver more effective and they achieve. efficient probation services, and will present them for consultation shortly. Karl Turner: I recently met Steve Hemming, chief Mr Watts: How does the Secretary of State plan to executive of Humberside probation trust. He is due to help the probation service to deal with the increased retire in April after 30 years of long, loyal and patient risk to the public, given his proposal for the abolition of service to the trust, but he is concerned that his patience indeterminate sentences for public protection? might be about to run out. When will the Government publish their long-awaited probation review? Mr Clarke: We debated that at great length in the House. IPPs were regarded by most people in the field Mr Clarke: First, may I pay tribute to the retiring of criminal justice as a complete disaster when they chief executive of the hon. Gentleman’s probation trust? were approved in the last Parliament, and our proposed There are many dedicated people in the probation service reform of them was strongly welcomed by most who doing very valuable jobs on behalf of the public they practised in that field. We are replacing them with serve. I am glad our consultation document is so eagerly tough determinate sentences, of which people will serve awaited; we have been taking some time over it as we are two thirds before they are eligible for release. Even then, trying to get it right, but we shall produce it soon. they will not be released unless the Parole Board is satisfied that they have completed their sentences. We were acquiring an impossible system before that, under Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): which thousands of people were accumulating in prison Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the with no real prospect of a rational basis for their probation service has substantially been financially protected release. when taking into account the overall demands on the budget of the Justice Ministry? Several hon. Members rose— Mr Clarke: I am not sure whether that is right, but I Mr Speaker: No one enjoys listening to the Secretary shall check. What my hon. Friend may have noticed is of State more than I do, and I have been doing so for that this year we cut some other services’ budgets more more than two decades, but we have a lot to get through, sharply than we cut that of the probation service, but so economy is of the essence. that is because the previous Government had been cutting the probation service budget pretty sharply, Martin Caton: There is a real fear both inside and once they finally woke up to the fact that we were in a outside the House that introducing a payment-by-results credit crunch and a financial crisis. They hit the probation approach to our Probation Service risks denying adequate service first. rehabilitation support to those with the most complex needs. What will the Secretary of State do to mitigate that risk? Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): In the last year for which I have figures for the Department, 6,600 criminals Mr Clarke: I think that it is key to public service to deemed high or very high risk by the probation service concentrate on what we are delivering that is of value to were serving community sentences. Does my right hon. the people we are trying to serve. Focusing our resources and learned Friend think public safety would be better on programmes that succeed in reducing the reoffending improved if some—or, indeed, most—of those people rate, thereby reforming former offenders and ensuring were in prison? 667 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 668

Mr Clarke: Sentencing guidelines should ensure that careful review to ensure that there is always sufficient those who deserve to go to prison because of the capacity to accommodate all those committed to custody severity of their offence, and those who need to go to by the courts. prison in order to protect the public properly, do go to prison. Those who get community sentences are graded Kerry McCarthy: I thank the Secretary of State for according to risk. More attention must be paid to those that response. I understand that possible shortfalls are who are near the risk threshold of needing to go to predicted in particular regions as opposed to on a prison rather than those who pose quite a low risk of national level. The Minister will know that maintaining reoffending. With respect however, I think my hon. family links during a period of imprisonment is a Friend is slightly misinterpreting what is called the risk critical factor in reducing reoffending on release. Will assessment for people on community sentences. People he assure the House that steps will be taken to ensure who should go to prison should be sent to prison by the that prisoners are kept as close to their family and their courts, and they are. place of origin as possible?

Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Does Mr Clarke: In many cases, a high priority is given to my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is ridiculous trying to house prisoners in places where they are that unaccountable managers in the National Offender reasonably in contact with their family and home. Of Management Service can undo all the good work done course, the more pressure the service comes under, the by probation officers by putting an ex-offender back in more difficult it is to maintain that, but I am sure it prison purely for having been a conscientious employee remains an objective of those who allocate prisoners to who was kept on late at work? the correct prison once they receive their sentence. Legal Aid Mr Clarke: If those are the facts of the case, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. He is obviously concerned about this case, and if he thinks something has gone 16. Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): badly wrong, I know him well enough to share his What assessment his Department has made of the concern. I have had a word with the prisons Minister effect on women of his proposed changes to legal aid. about this case, and we will investigate the facts and [92488] come back to him. The events as described obviously should not happen; that is not how the system is supposed The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice to work. (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Government published an equality impact assessment alongside their response to the consultation, which set out the best assessment of Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab): I have listened the effects on women of the proposed changes to legal to the Secretary of State’s responses on indeterminate aid. This recognised the potential for the reforms to sentences for public protection and payments by results have an impact on women alongside those with other and he is clearly feeling very optimistic. While we all protected characteristics. We have taken the view that like someone with a sunny disposition, when considering any such impacts would be justified in the light of the public protection issues it is also important to plan for policy objectives, especially in the context of reducing failure. Does the Secretary of State plan to monitor the the deficit. financial help given to providers of probation services in the community so that we avoid a criminal justice Geraint Davies: The Minister knows that the courts equivalent of Southern Cross? are already in crisis due to a shortage of court and judge time. Will he accept that the removal of legal aid will Mr Clarke: When people provide services, of course it is encourage more and more women to provide their own necessary before giving them the contract to do one’s defence, which will add to the crisis of delays and will best to check on their financial health, but this issue has mean further delay for children, bringing hardship to moved beyond arguments about whether a provider families and children? should be from the voluntary sector or a for-profit or not-for-profit provider. I wish to maximise the service Mr Djanogly: There is no shortage of court time or given to the public by those who provide community-based judge time. I simply do not accept what the hon. Gentleman sentences in this country, and we need to encourage says. innovation and best practice wherever we can. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I Prison Places understand why my hon. Friend is bringing forward the changes, but is he aware of the perverse consequences on new entrants to the Bar, particularly women, given 14. Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): What the opportunities in relation to being mobile and entering arrangements his Department has put in place to deal a legal profession in which one or one’s family have not with any future shortfall in prison places. [92486] been involved? Doors are being slammed in women’s faces. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke): On Friday 27 January, the prison Mr Djanogly: Certainly, as far as solicitors are concerned, population was 87,668 against a capacity of 89,399 the number of entries to the profession by women is places, providing headroom of 1,731 places, so there are now greater than by men. I believe the same is the case sufficient places for those being remanded and sentenced for barristers, but I will check and come back to my to custody. We will keep the prison population under hon. Friend. 669 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 670

Greater Manchester Intensive Alternative The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice to Custody Project (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Government are reforming the operation of conditional fee agreements through 18. Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): the provisions of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of Offenders Bill. The relevant impact assessments are of the Greater Manchester intensive alternative to published on the Ministry of Justice website. We believe custody project in reducing reoffending and the use that meritorious claims, including against media of short-term prison sentences. [92490] organisations, will still be able to secure representation under CFAs. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): We are currently considering the feasibility of an evaluation of intensive alternative to custody projects Kevin Brennan: Victims of phone hacking are absolutely by comparing reoffending rates with those for similar clear that they would not have been able to take their offenders receiving custodial sentences. cases forward were it not for no win, no fee arrangements being available; nor would the critical mass of cases Paul Goggins: I am grateful to the Minister for that been built up to break the scandal open. Why are the answer. As he knows, the Manchester project is aimed Minister and the Government on the side of powerful at 18 to 25-year-olds who would otherwise go to prison. media moguls against vulnerable victims? Those offenders have a reoffending rate of 18%, whereas the rate for offenders of a similar age who go to prison, Mr Djanogly: Quite the opposite: in fact, the high which costs 10 times more, is 58%. Will he bear that and disproportionate costs in the present system hinder evidence in mind and, as a Minister who believes in access to justice and can lead to a chilling effect on payment by results, make sure that funding goes to such journalism and academic and scientific debate. In the projects as a priority? Naomi Campbell case, the European Court of Human Nick Herbert: I accept the force of the right hon. Rights found the existing CFA arrangements with Gentleman’s comments and I have visited those responsible recoverability in that case to be contrary to article 10 of for running the scheme in Manchester as he knows—indeed, the convention. I think it was at his instigation. It is important that we evaluate these projects properly, and our general position Topical Questions is that we want to have more punitive community sentences, which are effective and combine rehabilitation T1. [92496] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): If with a punitive element. If possible, we want such he will make a statement on his departmental schemes to be mainstreamed so that they can be taken responsibilities. beyond their pilots. Mr Speaker: With reference to alternative to custody The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice projects, Mr Paul Maynard. (Mr Kenneth Clarke): May I update the House on the progress the Government have made toward implementing Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): their proposals for payment by results, which I was Thank you Mr Speaker, and indeed it is. If we are to defending a few moments ago? We have recently identified increase public confidence in more intensive forms of two probation trusts, one in Wales and the Staffordshire community sentencing, we clearly need to link them, as and West Midlands probation trust, to develop the we have just heard, to evidence showing how they community payment by results approach to probation reduce reoffending. In the commendable analysis of the services. We already have two well-established pilots in pilot in Manchester published in July 2011 by the privately managed prisons and we hope to develop Ministry of Justice, the difficulty of calculating reoffending more; further pilots are being developed in public sector statistics is made clear. Will the Minister reassure me prisons. We are seeking proposals from the market for that he will do all he can to square this circle so that we additional innovative contracts. We have selected a national can persuade members of the public that this is the way framework of providers to support this work, which forward? will assist us in meeting our commitment to roll out the Nick Herbert: Yes, my hon. Friend makes a good principles of payment by results throughout the criminal point. There have been difficulties, which is why we are justice system. assessing the feasibility of evaluation. We need the data for the reasons he gives: it is important that the public Andrew Stephenson: I hope the Secretary of State know how effective the disposals are and, in the future, agrees with me that it is disgraceful that criminals who that will be important for proposals on payment by have created victims of crime are compensated under results. Where they are successful and reduce reoffending, the criminal injuries compensation scheme. How much which we have had great difficulty delivering through have criminals received over the past 10 years? short-term custodial sentences, such measures should be considered. Mr Clarke: It is £75 million in the past 10 years, Conditional Fee Arrangements I think, and about 20,000 offenders have been compensated—I am remembering the brief for my 19. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What statement yesterday. It is plainly insupportable that one assessment he has made of the effect of his reforms to week someone can commit a crime at his victims’ expense, conditional fee arrangements on people’s ability to and within a very short time claim that the taxpayer pursue civil cases against newspapers and other media should compensate him because someone has committed organisations. [92491] a crime against him. We are bringing that to an end. 671 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 672

Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): Last week, reforming no win, no fee conditional fee agreements there were two tragic deaths of young people in custody: and banning referral fees, and why we are countering Jake Hardy, a 17-year-old held at Hindley, and 15-year-old illegal text advertising and consulting on banning Alex Kelly, a prisoner at Cookham Wood. Although, inducement advertising. rightly, there will be investigations and inquests, urgent questions need to be answered. Had mental health T6. [92501] Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): I thank the assessments been undertaken? Were the boys receiving Secretary of State for saying, following my earlier treatment? Had there been any fighting involving these question, that he would look at the case that I children? Were any forms of restraint used? Will the mentioned, but will he examine, or get his Department Secretary of State make urgent inquiries into the to examine, whether there is consistency among parole circumstances of the deaths to address concerns that boards and prison governors when it comes to licence this may be a new systemic problem, and inform the conditions relating to exclusion zones? There is nothing House? worse than a family bumping into the murderer of a loved one in the street, or in the locality. Will he look at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice the consistency of parole boards’ and governors’ (Mr Crispin Blunt): Yes. The hon. Gentleman will be decisions? aware that four separate types of inquiry are to be conducted. Later today I will meet the chairman and Mr Kenneth Clarke: I will certainly look at that, chief executive of the Youth Justice Board and discuss because I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there those cases. should be consistency. That is why we have exclusion zones—precisely to make sure that the victims of a T2. [92497] Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): criminal do not find that they accidentally bump into Following the horrific murder of my constituent Kynan him again, or even worse, are pestered by him when he Eldridge, I wonder whether the Minister can assure the is released from prison. We all take cases of the kind House and Kynan’s family that the perpetrators of that he raises very seriously, and we will look into this such crimes, if they are foreign nationals, will be one. deported after their sentence ends? What work is he doing to ensure that that happens? T5. [92500] Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Devon Rape Crisis was launched last November and has Mr Blunt: My hon. Friend will have heard the exchanges already helped many victims of sexual violence across earlier about foreign-national offenders. We are doing Devon, but it and Rape Crisis England and Wales are everything that we can to improve the legal situation, so calling for changes to make it easier to identify the that we have more powers to deport people and can number of victims of crimes that are sexually improve the administrative process through proper motivated. Will the Secretary of State meet Rape Crisis co-operation between the UK Border Agency and the and me to discuss how we can make such crimes more National Offender Management Service. easily identifiable, and to hear about the excellent work of Rape Crisis? T4. [92499] Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Last month, Welsh Women’s Aid surveyed 324 victims of domestic violence who were receiving specialist Mr Blunt: My hon. Friend has raised an important support, and it found that 46% of them would not be issue, and I would be very pleased to meet her and eligible for legal aid if the Government’s proposals colleagues from Rape Crisis to look at the linkages, and were carried out. Why will the Government not listen at the proper examination and analysis of data in this to the evidence, which plainly points to the fact that area. It is important that we continue to improve our many victims of domestic violence will be denied access knowledge. to justice? T7. [92502] Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Co-op): Will the Secretary of State explain how he (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): We have had the Welsh report thinks that axing 1,000 posts at the Crown Prosecution and are looking at it, but we dispute the figures in it. As Service will help him to bring more criminals to justice? I have said on many occasions, when it comes to legal aid, we are concentrating our efforts on helping to deal Mr Kenneth Clarke: I am sure that my right hon. and with domestic violence, and that will be the case following learned Friend the Attorney-General has ensured that, our reforms. in making changes to the budget and staffing of the Crown Prosecution Service, he is not reducing the quality T3. [92498] Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) of service that it provides. These things are not best (Con): Do Ministers share my concerns about the measured by whether a body has ever-expanding payrolls unacceptable burdens placed on small businesses by or budgets; that tended to be the approach of the ambulance-chasing lawyers, who pursue those former Government, in which the hon. Gentleman served. businesses for spurious claims when they have no right We are trying to produce better value for money, in to do so? order to cope with the appalling financial crisis that we inherited from our predecessors. Mr Djanogly: The Government are taking firm, significant steps to address the burgeoning claims market, T8. [92503] Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): which, as my hon. Friend says, particularly encourages The trade unions directly benefit from current no low-value claims against businesses and others—claims win, no fee arrangements, earning huge amounts via for which we all end up paying. That is why we are their legal arms through inflated success fees. What 673 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 674 assessment has the Minister made of the amount of Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Many success fees paid to trade unions, particularly in innocent victims of crime feel isolated and dissatisfied personal injury cases? at the end of the justice process. Will the Secretary of State assure me that protection of, and justice for, the Mr Djanogly: Unfortunately, the trade unions did not victim will be fundamental to the reformed criminal provide their lawyers’ success fee details, or their referral justice system? fee income details, to the consultation. However, given that they have received more than £550,000 from personal Mr Clarke: I hope that I can assure the hon. Gentleman injury lawyers in donations, it seems that the unions’ and that he will have the opportunity to study the lawyers are not entirely disinterested in the outcome of consultation document I published yesterday. I concede our attempt to rein in the compensation culture. that there has been a steady process of improvement over the years, compared with the situation not too long ago, when victims were regarded simply as people who Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): How is it that an individual had to come to court if they were needed, but we still on remand for murder can hang himself while in custody? have not gone far enough. We must ensure that the Will the Secretary of State hold an urgent inquiry? experience of being in court does not add to a victim’s suffering, that all proper support is given to those who Mr Blunt: Of course, in all these cases there are have been badly and lastingly affected by what has immediate operational inquiries, and then there are happened to them and that there is a proper system of proper coroners’ inquiries. In all such cases, there will compensation. The object of the criminal justice service then be an inquiry by the prisons and probation must be to give proper service to the victims of crime. ombudsman. These matters are taken extremely seriously. The number of self-inflicted deaths in custody has been Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): It has falling, but there have been a number of tragic cases come to light that barrister David Friesner recently recently. Of course, we will look at all this extremely defended a fraudster, despite having just been convicted seriously. for stealing £81,000. We had an absurd situation in which a criminal was representing a criminal, which T9. [92504] Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): brings the legal system into disrepute. Will the Minister This splendid Conservative-led coalition Government look into the actions of the Bar Standards Board and have done much in the fight against human trafficking. consider mandatory suspension for those guilty of serious The poor women who are victims of human trafficking crimes? and sexual exploitation and who are then rescued go into the national referral mechanism, but what happens Mr Speaker: Order. My firm impression is that this to them after 45 days? Are they thrown out if they do matter is currently sub judice and, if I am correct in that not qualify? surmise, I know that the Minister will exercise his customary lawyerly caution, and it might well be that The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick silence is the best policy. Herbert): No, I am happy to reassure my hon. Friend that that is certainly not the case. There is an ongoing Mr Djanogly: I shall indeed be cautious, Mr Speaker, process of assessment and support during the 45-day but I can say that I certainly agree with and understand period, after which victims continue to receive support my hon. Friend’s concerns. This is a regulatory matter, as necessary in Salvation Army outreach centres or rather than a legislative loophole, but we are in contact from mainstream services. We are determined to improve with the BSB about it. the service provided to victims of these appalling crimes and have protected funding in order to do so. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will the Minister recognise the effectiveness of multi-agency Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): John Anslow is the working, which is usually led by the probation service? I first category A prisoner to escape for 17 years. Does recently visited the Huddersfield probation office and the Secretary of State know why? was surprised by how effective such working is in cutting the levels of crime and reoffending.

Mr Blunt: The matter is understandably being inquired Mr Blunt: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to into, and in due course we will report back. draw the House’s attention to the benefits of more effective integrated offender management, which is another T10. [92505] Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) way of expressing the multi-agency working to which he (Con): Residents and organisations in my constituency draws attention. This good practice is widening across will welcome the Government’s decision to update the the whole system and, I am delighted to say, becoming law relating to scrap metal. When will the necessary the norm. amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill be brought forward? Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): One in four girls, some as young as 13, are hit by their Mr Kenneth Clarke: I share my hon. Friend’s concern boyfriend. What action will the Minister take to tackle to see the Government move on this matter as quickly violence among children? as possible. I assure him that we are working carefully with colleagues on the drafting and hope to be able to Mr Djanogly: Tackling domestic violence is an absolute table amendments to the Bill, which is currently before priority of this Government, and we are co-ordinating the House of Lords, as soon as possible. action with the Home Office. Indeed, my hon. Friend 675 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 676 appeared in a debate that was held in Westminster Hall its special significance for Northern Ireland and the only a few days ago, and she will have seen the full situation in Northern Ireland, and we will pay the most picture at that time. careful regard to the submissions that we receive from all those interested in Northern Ireland before we come Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): In the Ministry to our conclusions. of Justice’s own impact assessment of the cuts to civil legal aid, there are 15 statements that the Ministry does Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): Throughout the not have evidence for the savings and 30 admissions that 18 months to the end of September 2011, consistently the savings are based on speculation. Should not the more than half of appeal cases relating to employment Secretary of State listen to Citizens Advice and King’s and support allowance took longer than six months to college London, which can demonstrate that the cuts be decided by the Courts and Tribunals Service, meaning will cost the taxpayer more than they will save? that more than twice as many people as the service’s own target are waiting that long. What action is the Mr Djanogly: We have seen the King’s college figures, Minister taking to ensure that they receive their decisions and we do not agree with them. The fact of the matter is in good time? that we have published full impact assessments, and we stand by them. Mr Djanogly: The service is under pressure because of an increase in appeals, but I am very pleased to say Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): that in five of the past six months more appeals have More than half of male prisoners and almost three gone out the door than have come in. quarters of female prisoners have no qualifications at all. What efforts are being made, through the training of Mr Speaker: Last but not least, Mr Toby Perkins. prison officers, to raise awareness of the importance and availability of prison education in our prisons? Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab): Last week I met the family of Jake Hardy, a 17-year-old with learning Mr Blunt: We have recently re-let the offender learning difficulties who died last week after hanging himself in and skills contracts, which are funded through the Hindley young offenders institute. The family tell me Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. That is that Hindley was aware that Jake had been a victim of about £157 million worth of education which is being systematic bullying, was of low mental capacity and put into skilling-up offenders, not least so that they can had self-harmed earlier in the week, yet it declined to then take part in our work in prisons strategy and we place him on suicide watch. What steps will the Minister can get much more effective and economic use of prisoner take to ensure that the full facts of the case emerge, and time in prison—with enormous benefits for them on what will he do to prevent another family from feeling release. the grief felt by the Hardys? Mr Speaker: Order. Again, I rather suspect—I am Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Is the Secretary of not a lawyer, and I say that as a matter of some very State aware that yesterday the Northern Ireland Human considerable pride, but as far as I am aware—the question Rights Commission registered profound concerns about is likely to be sub judice. I do not criticise the hon. the “Justice and Security” Green Paper’s proposals on Gentleman, but I exhort the Minister to be characteristically closed material proceedings? Will he accept that moving cautious in his response. to provide for secret trials and secret inquests has acute implications in the context of Northern Ireland, not Mr Blunt: I am grateful, Mr Speaker. The case has least its impact on transitional justice and on the efforts been referred to several times in the course of today’s to deal with the legacy of the past? questions, and I do not have anything more to add to the answer that I have given. The hon. Gentleman Mr Kenneth Clarke: As the hon. Gentleman knows, knows that I am seeing the chairman and the chief we are consulting on those proposals in relation to that executive of the Youth Justice Board later on today, and difficult subject. All I can say is that I certainly appreciate the case will of course be on the agenda for our discussions. 677 31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 678

Informal European Council safeguards, so I vetoed the treaty. As a result, eurozone countries and others are now making separate arrangements outside the EU treaties for strengthening budgetary 3.33 pm discipline, including by ensuring that there are much The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): With tougher rules on deficits. At this Council, 25 EU member permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement states agreed a new treaty outside the EU. Britain and on yesterday’s informal European Council. the Czech Republic have not signed up and we will not be taking part. Countries right across Europe need bold action to recover their economic dynamism, to get to grips with Let me deal directly with the issue of the institutions. their debts and to secure growth and jobs for the future, The new agreement sets out roles for the European and that was rightly the focus of this Council. So, first, Commission and the European Court of Justice. Although we agreed important measures needed to restore Europe’s some of those roles are permitted through existing competitiveness; next, we discussed the separate treaties, there are legal questions about what is planned. intergovernmental treaty on fiscal discipline in the eurozone; As I have said, it is in Britain’s interests that the eurozone and, finally, we issued a statement on Iran, Syria and sorts out its problems. It is also in our interests that the Burma. I am going to take each in turn. new agreement outside the EU is restricted to issues of fiscal union and does not encroach on the single market. Britain’s agenda in Europe is to promote growth, The new intergovernmental agreement is absolutely explicit competitiveness and jobs. We have said repeatedly that and clear that it cannot encroach on the competencies the best way in which the EU can drive growth and of the European Union and that measures must not be create jobs is to complete the single market, establish taken that in any way undermine the EU single market. trade deals with the fastest growing parts of the world Nevertheless, I made it clear that we will watch this and cut the regulatory burdens on business. At this matter closely and that, if necessary, we will take action, Council we made important progress on all those issues. including legal action, if our national interests are We agreed to establish a fully functioning single threatened by the misuse of the institutions. [Interruption.] market in services, where there are still 4,700 professions across Europe for which access is regulated by Government, Mr Speaker: Order. There is a fine line between jollity and in digital, where there are more than a dozen and hysteria. I fear that the hon. Member for Rhondda copyright regimes in what should be one single market. (Chris Bryant) is in danger of having crossed it. He We will take action to secure what should be a fast-growing must calm himself, by whatever means necessary. area right across Europe. The changes on services and digital alone could add more than 6% to EU GDP The Prime Minister: The principle that the EU institutions within a decade. We also agreed to complete the energy should act only with the explicit authorisation of all single market, which has the potential to cut costs for member states remains. Let me be clear: this is a treaty businesses and consumers across Europe. outside the EU. We are not signing it, we are not On free trade, we said that 2012 should be a “decisive ratifying it, we are not part of it and it places no year” in which to move ahead on trade agreements with obligations on the UK. It does not have the force of EU major partners such as Japan, India, Canada and the law for us, nor does it for the EU institutions or for the United States. On regulation, we agreed to a growth countries that have signed it, and there will be no inner test, for the first time, to ensure group of European countries distorting the single market “that all actions at the European Union level fully support from inside the EU treaty. That is the fundamental economic growth and job creation.” protection that we secured with our veto in December, We also agreed to reduce regulatory burdens, especially and that protection remains. for small and medium-sized enterprises and micro- We also made an important statement on developments enterprises, and to complete a patent package to support in Iran, Burma and Syria. Britain has played a leading innovation. That has been discussed in Europe for more role in getting Europe to act together on each of those than a decade and finally we are making decisive progress. issues. On Iran, last week all EU countries agreed an We want the eurozone to sort out its problems, which unprecedented oil embargo, which shows our determination are having a chilling effect on our economy. Tackling to keep up the pressure on the regime to turn away from them is one of the best ways in which we can help to any plans to develop nuclear weapons. secure growth in Britain and right across Europe. As I In Burma, for years Aung Sang Suu Kyi has been an have said repeatedly, short-term steps—the so-called inspiration to her people and to the world. Britain has October package—must be taken, and taken properly. supported her at every stage and has been at the forefront Europe’s banks must be recapitalised properly, the of EU sanctions. Now there are signs of a new moment uncertainty in Greece must be brought to a decisive of opportunity for democracy, and we should be prepared end, and the firewall that needs to be constructed must to relax those sanctions, but only in stages and only in be big enough to deal with the full scale of the crisis and response to reforms. When I spoke to Aung Sang Suu the potential contagion. In the longer term, proper Kyi on Saturday, she emphasised the importance of fiscal discipline in the eurozone is clearly an important credible and free by-elections in April. I can assure the part of the solution. Britain recognises that that is House we will be watching that very closely. necessary. The question has never been whether there On Syria, the Council condemned the continuing should be greater fiscal discipline in the eurozone, but violence and the repression of the Syrian people. Reports how it should be achieved. suggest that more than 60 people were killed on the I went to the European Council last December prepared streets of Syria last week alone. In total, more than to agree a treaty of all 27 countries, but only if there 5,000 people have been killed, 400 children murdered were proper safeguards for Britain. I did not get those and tens of thousands of people detained. Today, the 679 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 680

Foreign Secretary is in New York to support the Arab “There isn’t an EU treaty because I vetoed it; it doesn’t exist.” League’s call for Security Council action condemning The agreement involves the European Court of Justice, repression and supporting a transition of power. All the European Commission, the European buildings, 27 EU member states backed that call for UN action, 25 out of 27 countries, and he says that it is not really a and if the violence does not end, we agreed that we treaty. [Interruption.] Here is the treaty. It talks like a would tighten EU sanctions further. Our message is European treaty, it walks like a European treaty—it is a clear: we will stand with the Syrian people. It is time for European treaty. all members of the UN Security Council to live up to For Britain, the Prime Minister has secured no their responsibilities instead of shielding those who protections at all. He says that he has secured protections have blood on their hands. The killing must stop, and about discussions on the single market, but the treaty President Assad must stand aside. says that the contracting parties shall take actions in the This was an important Council for Britain. On following areas: competitiveness, the single market and trade, Britain is “Fostering competitiveness. Promoting employment. Reinforcing setting the agenda. On action to face down dictators financial stability.” and dangerous regimes in Iran and Syria, Britain is leading the way, and by saying no to a new EU treaty we It sounds like the single market to me. Can he confirm have protected Britain’s interests. I commend this statement that the United Kingdom will not even have observer to the House. status at the regular meetings of the 25 to find out what is going on and whether the single market is being discussed? The Prime Minister needs to answer the 3.41 pm question: who will protect the British national interest Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): I thank at those meetings? I think his Back Benchers will be the Prime Minister for his statement and associate interested in that. [Interruption.] It is all right, Mr Speaker, myself with his remarks about Iran, Syria and Burma. Britain will not be represented at those meetings, but On those issues there has been a bipartisan approach, the Prime Minister has a last line of defence—the and the Government have our full support in the effort European Commission. You could not make it up: the they are making. Prime Minister reduced to relying on the people he calls “the bureaucrats from Brussels” to represent him at the Having heard the Prime Minister’s statement on Europe, meetings. In the Prime Minister’s topsy turvy world, the whole House now knows the truth—that with this that is all he has left: his thin blue line against the Prime Minister, a veto is not for life, it is just for 25 countries exceeding their mandate. Christmas. He said—[Interruption.] Calm down, dear, calm down. He said that it was a real veto on the use of Instead of ending up in that position, the Prime European institutions, and his Back Benchers believed Minister should not have walked out of the meeting in him. Even his Cabinet believed him. What did the December. [Interruption.] No, he should not. welfare Secretary—where is he?—say just this weekend? [Interruption.] He could not have been clearer. He said: “The fact is the Prime Minister vetoed them using the institutions”. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the There was not a glimmer of doubt in his mind. He was Leader of the Opposition. I exhorted the Opposition asked whether the structures of the EU would be used Benches to some calm; I now do so to the Government for the fiscal compact, and he said: Benches. I say to the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) in the nicest, kindest and “The Prime Minister has already made it clear…he vetoed any such possibility of that happening.” most public-spirited way possible that if he insists on gesticulating, which he should not, it is pretty silly to do It is no wonder the welfare Secretary said that, because it when he is standing next to me. it was what the Chancellor said the day after the summit. He said on the Saturday morning: Edward Miliband: Instead of constructing phantom “If we had signed this treaty…we would have found the full force of the…European court, the European Commission, all of vetoes, the Prime Minister should have been getting a those institutions enforcing those treaties using that opportunity solution to the problems of the eurozone—our largest to undermine Britain’s interests…We were not prepared to let that export market. Of course, he cannot do that. He is happen.” committed to failing austerity at home, so he cannot Can the Prime Minister now confirm that the treaty will oppose collective austerity abroad. There are growing be ruled on by the European Court of Justice? Article 8 fears that the scale of austerity required under the of the treaty says yes. Can he tell us whether the treaty will not work. Will the Prime Minister therefore European Commission will implement the treaty? Article 8 tell us whether the economic strategy in the fiscal compact says yes. will work? If he does not believe that it will work, why is What about the Prime Minister’s line in the sand? We he not arguing for change? know that at 4 am on that fateful Friday morning, he The summit has been bad for Britain. There is still no laid down the law to his fellow European leaders and solution to the problems of growth in Europe. In the said, “You won’t be able to use the buildings.” So can he cold light of day, the Prime Minister’s veto that never now tell us whether the buildings of the European was has been exposed. He made a grand promise, which institutions will be used? Apparently, the answer to that turned out to be worthless. No wonder that even his is yes, too. On the European Court, the Commission Back Benchers say that they cannot believe a word he and the buildings, the phantom veto of December is says. now exposed. Britain stands with less influence than we have had What does the Prime Minister cling to? What did he for a generation. It is bad for business, bad for jobs and say at the press conference yesterday? He said: bad for families. Britain deserves better. 681 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 682

The Prime Minister: I tell you what: I will deal with mind whether he wants to sign this treaty or not. As my Back Benchers, you deal with yours. [Interruption.] usual, he cannot make up his mind whether he is muddled or weak. The fact is he is both. Mr Speaker: Order. Mr Ellis, you were apologising to me yesterday for losing your cool. You should not be a Several hon. Members rose— recidivist. I want to hear the Prime Minister even if you do not. Mr Speaker: Order. There is enormous interest and I am keen to accommodate it. What is required is brevity, The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. of which the right hon. and learned Member for North Let me say to the Leader of the Opposition that there East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) is a past master. are two problems with the approach he is taking. The first problem is that he cannot actually tell us whether Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD): We he is in favour of this treaty or against it. The Government will see whether your prediction is justified, Mr Speaker. are clear: we are not signing it and we do not agree with I begin by praising the pragmatism of the Prime it. That is why we vetoed it being within the EU treaties. Minister, although I confess to being somewhat surprised That is our position. What is his position? He has had that my support for it is not shared throughout the all of his Christmas to make up his mind about whether Government Benches. It is especially welcome that he he would sign the treaty or not. pursued over the weekend a policy of re-engagement Last night—[Interruption.] This is very important, with our European partners, which is essential to his so let me explain. Last night at the meeting of the long-term objectives of the promotion of growth and European Council, every European country had to say the extension of the single market. whether it would sign up to the treaty or not. Britain and the Czech Republic said we would not. Everyone The Prime Minister: My right hon. and learned Friend has to make a decision, but the right hon. Gentleman is entirely right. We must ask a simple question: what is cannot do so. He has had 53 days to make up his mind. in the interests of the UK? It is in our interests to let the eurozone get on with the job of sorting out its problems, The right hon. Gentleman’s second problem is that he and to ensure that this new treaty is restricted to the keeps saying this is an EU treaty, but it is not an EU issues of fiscal union. It is therefore in our interests to treaty. There was a treaty of Maastricht, a treaty of use leverage over the institutions and the legal issues to Nice, a treaty of Amsterdam and a treaty of Lisbon. On keep them focused on fiscal union. That is the approach each occasion, the Labour party was in favour. There we have taken and it is entirely right. will be no EU treaty of Brussels because we vetoed it. The right hon. Gentleman asked specifically what Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab): Every single article effect this treaty could have on the EU single market. bar one of the treaty, which I have read, refers to The treaty is clear. Article 2 states: institutions of the European Union, including the “The provisions of this Treaty shall apply” Commission and the Court of Justice. Leaving aside its only “insofar”—[Interruption.] form, how can the Prime Minister possibly say that, in substance, the treaty is not equivalent to a European Union treaty? Given the provisions of article 12—it Mr Speaker: Order. The House must now calm itself. provides for non-euro contracting parties to participate With all that gesticulation and hand-waving from the in discussions on competitiveness, but not those outside shadow Chancellor, I thought he was playing with his the treaty—what has been achieved by his veto except cooking utensils—[Interruption.] Well, he was pointing that we are outside the door? somewhere. Like the House and the country, I genuinely want to hear the Prime Minister, as I hope they also The Prime Minister: It is not an EU treaty, because it wanted to hear the Leader of the Opposition. Let us does not amend EU law; it is not a treaty within all of hear the Prime Minister. the treaties of the EU, and that is very important, because it would have been wrong to sign up for that The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. We without the safeguards for the single market, financial know why the Opposition Benches are so depleted— services and the other things that I set out. Let me just Opposition Members have been eating the shadow explain how important article 2 is in this agreement of Chancellor’s lasagne and are recovering. The point is the other countries. Let me read it in full: absolutely clear in article 2, which states that the provisions “The provisions of this Treaty shall apply insofar as they are “shall not encroach upon the competences of the Union to act in compatible with the Treaties on which the Union is founded and the area of the economic union.” with European Union law. They shall not encroach upon the The fact is that Labour always fails to stand up for competences of the Union to act in the area of the economic Britain. That is what we know. The previous Labour union”— Government gave away the EU rebate. What did they that is, this treaty is outside EU law. Why is it outside get in return? Nothing. They signed up to the bail-out EU law? It is because I made it outside EU law. mechanism. What did they get in return? [HON.MEMBERS: “Nothing.”] They signed up to the social chapter. What Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): My right hon. Friend did we get for that? [HON.MEMBERS: “Nothing.”] The will know that the European Scrutiny Committee is Opposition opposed our referendum lock, and even making an inquiry into the nature and lawfulness of the now they are telling us that Brussels does not have too agreement otherwise known as this non-EU treaty. Will much power, and that if the Leader of the Opposition he accept that the problem we have in European policy were Prime Minister for long enough, he would join the making is that it is on a slippery slope towards a more single currency. He has had 53 days to make up his coercive, more federal and less democratic Europe? Will 683 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 684 he give us his assurance that never, while he is Prime The Prime Minister: The Chancellor said that we are Minister, will we fold this non-EU treaty into the treaties founder members of the IMF and strong supporters of as a whole? it as an institution, but that the IMF must always lend to countries, not currencies; that we would not be part The Prime Minister: To answer my hon. Friend’s of an EU bail-out fund; that we would take part only if second question first, obviously this treaty cannot be other countries came forward too; and that that would folded back into the EU without the agreement of every happen only after eurozone countries and eurozone EU member state. We did not sign this treaty, because institutions had done what they needed to do to stand we did not get the safeguards that we wanted, and that up and support their currency. That is the position, and position absolutely remains. My hon. Friend is right to I think that it is right. make the point about the danger of a slippery slope that can be created by signing EU treaties and the use of the EU institutions. The whole point is that because this is Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): not an EU treaty—because it is outside EU law—we are Will the Prime Minister say something about the nature not in danger of that happening. of the EU of which we are now a member, given that a subset of member states can bypass a veto and hijack Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): So, basically, the the institutions for their own purposes without the Prime Minister was afraid that if he went to the European consent of the dissenting member states? He is entirely Court of Justice and asked the European Court of right to maintain a reservation to ensure that that does Justice whether the European Court of Justice should not happen. have power to adjudicate on the so-called non-EU treaty, he would lose? That is basically the sum and total The Prime Minister: The point is that, as my hon. of it, is it not? Friend knows, there are organisations within the EU, The Prime Minister: Let me explain again, because I such as the eurozone group and the Schengen group, of know the hon. Gentleman takes great interest in European which we are not a part, that use the European institutions. affairs. The point is that it is in our interest that these The fact is that this treaty is outside the EU treaties, eurozone countries get on with the job they need to do. which gives us that extra protection. Furthermore, we It is absolutely important that they stick to the fiscal have the ability to exercise leverage to ensure that they union and do not encroach on the single market. Clearly, stick to fiscal union, rather than getting into the single there are uses for the institutions they have set out in market, which is what we want to protect. That is this treaty, some of which are legal under existing EU absolutely important and the approach that we should law and some of which are highly questionable. We are take. going to use that leverage and that legal position to make them stick to the position of sticking to the fiscal Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): union. That is the most sensible thing to do, and I The Greek writer Aristophanes gave us the concept of would have thought that, with all his experience in cloud cuckoo land. I wonder whether some European European politics, he understood that. leaders visited that mythical country on Monday. Will the Prime Minister tell us how on earth he thinks that a Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): May I welcome country such as Greece will regain competitiveness if it the Prime Minister’s confirmation that there is no provision cannot devalue, which it cannot do within the euro? in the treaty that allows the single market to be undermined? However, he will be aware that the President of France has been driven to impose a financial transaction tax on The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady makes a serious France alone. Does he agree that the dismay with which point. I have read the agreement that these countries that was met by the financial services sector in Paris have come to, and I completely understand the need for illustrates exactly why such a tax is a bad idea? fiscal discipline within the eurozone. Clearly, we cannot have countries building up excessive deficits year after The Prime Minister: One does not need to look any year, and one can understand the concern of Germany further than the European Commission itself, which and other northern countries, but on the text of the actually carried out an investigation into a financial treaty, it is actually very concerning that some countries transactions tax and found that it could cost 500,000 jobs will struggle to meet it. Of course, Europe needs not in the European Union. That is why the whole idea of only arrangements for fiscal discipline but, above all, pursuing this at the moment is completely wrong. Of arrangements for additional competitiveness, for opening course, it would be different if the whole world was up markets and for getting economies growing. That going to accept a financial transactions tax, but that is was the subject of the first half of the EU meeting, in extremely unlikely to happen. That is why I do not think which we were major participants, and we are very it is the right approach. But let us be clear: in this much driving that agenda to help Greece, Spain and country, we do get our financial services to make a other countries in the south of Europe. proper contribution. For instance, we have stamp duty on share transactions, which actually raises considerably more than the French are planning to raise with their Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): The eurozone early foray into this area. crisis has now become a major global risk, but the member countries seem wholly incapable of addressing Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Will the it and its root causes properly. Will the need for IMF Prime Minister confirm what I think the Chancellor has intervention and direction of the crisis be discussed at said over the past couple of days, which is that when the G20 summit that the Prime Minister will be attending more money is required by the IMF, Britain will not fall on 25 February, and was it discussed at the summit short? from which he has just come? 685 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 686

The Prime Minister: There was not a discussion about appeasement. If this meeting had been held in Munich, IMF resources at the informal EU Council. To be fair the Prime Minister would have been coming back waving to eurozone members, what they need to do is difficult a piece of paper. for countries to do: they need to contribute huge amounts of money to a firewall to prevent contagion; they need The Prime Minister: I always wonder whether practice to put capital into their banks to strengthen them at this is going to make perfect with the hon. Gentleman. At time of stress; and they have to give up large areas of least he has been consistent: he has always voted against sovereignty to make sense of the eurozone. Those are all all EU treaties, and I am giving him the rare pleasure of reasons we stayed out of the eurozone, and why I not having an EU treaty to vote against. believe that we should not join the single currency. It is only fair, however, to explain that they have taken quite Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): The a few steps down that road. The argument that I made Prime Minister has referred to the five European countries in Davos was that, as well as the short-term things that that are now less competitive than Iran. On competitiveness, they need to do, they need a set-up that makes sense for his announcement today is welcome, but how quickly the long term of the eurozone. will those steps be taken to increase the competitiveness of the single market? Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): The Prime Minister said that he will watch closely and, if necessary, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right take action, including legal action, if our national interests to raise the issue in this way. We have tended in the past are threatened by the treaty. Will that legal action be in the European Union to sign up to Council conclusions taken through the European Court of Justice, and how or informal statements, like the one agreed late last does that marry with his next statement that EU institutions night, that are full of good words about taking such should only act with the explicit authorisation of all steps but do not contain enough concrete dates. The member states? Will not other states refuse to allow difference last night is that dates have started to appear that? for when specific things should be done, whether it be completing EU free trade arrangements with other The Prime Minister: I do not think that the hon. countries or completing deregulation or single market Gentleman understands how these institutions work. programmes. That is very welcome. The point is simple: it is clearly in our national interests to maintain the single market at the level of the 27 to Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): The position taken make it work for us. As long as this treaty stays out of on Iran at the summit was clearly the right one. However, that area, and instead focuses on fiscal union and as the Prime Minister knows, there are 73,000 Iranians discusses the things that the hon. Member for Birmingham, living in London. What provisions have been made to Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) mentioned, it will not be a nominate a third country, so that British Iranians can problem for Britain. If it encroaches on our national go to visit Tehran, and their friends and relatives can interests, however, we will have the ability to take action come and visit here? and the case to do so. The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman asks Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) an important question. Perhaps I can write to him (LD): After what was clearly a much more successful about that. What I would say is that, in a move that may and satisfactory summit than the one in December—the have surprised some people, the EU has been decisive—for Prime Minister came back with clear EU commitments instance, in creating the oil embargo when some members to democracy around the world, and to the single of the EU have been quite reliant on Iranian oil, which market and the extra jobs that it can sustain, particularly is a real step forward. However, on the issue of third in the energy industry at home—will he agree that his countries and travel, perhaps I can write to the right constituents, like mine, want the Government to concentrate, hon. Gentleman. as Europe appears to be united in doing, on jobs, growth, training and skills, instead of obsessing about David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): We have constitutional and treaty niceties? Those are not important. learned today that in Britain’s national interest the Prime Minister is prepared to use a veto to allow The Prime Minister: I think the right hon. Gentleman is national agreements and to rule out for ever Britain’s entirely right, and the refreshing thing about this Council membership of the euro. Does he or anyone else in this is how much time was spent on the nitty-gritty of the room have any idea what the Leader of the Opposition single market—on digital, on services, on education stands for? and on energy markets. Having Mario Monti, the new Greek Prime Minister and others there with a real focus The Prime Minister: It is going to be interesting. We on the single market, including the new Spanish Prime are now going to have a period of days when the Leader Minister, gives us a much better prospect for making of the Opposition is finally going to have to get off the progress on this agenda than we have had for many fence and tell us: would he sign up to this treaty or not? years. The treaty is right here—I can give him a copy. It is a treaty that we will not be signing; he now has to make Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is not the truth up his mind whether he is going to sign it or not. of the matter that throughout 2011 the Prime Minister marched his troops to the top of the anti-European hill, Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): How does the Prime and now, like John Major before him, and with the help Minister feel about attending a European Council of a of the Deputy Prime Minister, he has marched them supposedly democratic EU when the leaders of two of down again? I think there is a word for it: it is called the countries not only have not been elected, but were 687 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 688 more or less imposed by the bureaucracy in Brussels? The Prime Minister: I have vetoed Britain’s involvement Does he not feel seriously that we are moving more and in a treaty. As a result, it is not an EU treaty. We had in more away from a democratic Europe, and that this is front of this House the Maastricht EU treaty and the why the people of this country, ultimately, will have to Lisbon EU treaty; we had Amsterdam and we had Nice. decide on our future? All of those were treaties that Britain was involved in as a member of the EU, and they were EU treaties with the The Prime Minister: The difference between the situation full force of the law. This is not like that; this is outside in this country, where we face great economic challenges, the European Union. It is an arrangement that has been and countries in the eurozone is that we have been able reached by 25 other countries and we are not involved. to adopt a policy stance that, yes, combines a very tight As a result, we have safeguarded Britain’s interests, fiscal policy with difficult public spending reductions, which could have been put at risk by a new EU treaty. but can also be accompanied by a loose monetary policy, with the Bank of England standing behind the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): What indications economy. The problem for many eurozone countries is did the Prime Minister receive from the German that they do not have that policy mix. That is making Government that if they want their political project of life difficult for them, and I fully understand that. They fiscal and monetary union in the eurozone to succeed, want to stay in the euro; they want to make the euro they will finally have to face the sad fact that they will work. Whatever our private views about the euro, we have to put in the necessary resources, rather than just should do what we can to help them get on with the job imposing greater austerity on countries that have been of sorting out the single currency and its arrangements, steadily stripped of their democracy? because it is currently having such a bad effect on our The Prime Minister: I tried to set out what I think is economy. the sensible view in my speech to the Davos summit. Look, I do understand the German concern. It sees Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): countries across Europe that have run up huge debts Can the Prime Minister reassure the House that in and huge deficits, putting at risk the stability of the exercising his veto, exhorting the eurozone to sort out single currency. It does not want that to happen again, its financial crisis and promoting growth through the so it wants these assurances for the future. Just as single market, he is acting in Britain’s national interests? everyone needs to understand the German position, Does he also share my concern that the Leader of the however, we also need to show some understanding of Opposition does not seem to know where Britain’s those countries that are going to struggle in the years interests lie? ahead. They are going to need extra help and assistance, and there is going to have to be solidarity across the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right. At the eurozone, because the single currency requires that, as I end of the day, we have to decide whether we are going explained in my Davos speech. We manage a single to agree to this treaty or not. The fact is that every currency across the United Kingdom because we show European country had to make that decision, and we solidarity with different areas of the country, and the have made ours. I repeat that it is in our national eurozone has to understand that similar solidarity will interest for the eurozone to deal with its problems, to be required there, to make the single currency work in keep this treaty focused on fiscal union and then to the long run. maximise the potential of the single market. I think that Britain should be relaxed about being in those parts of Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): I was Europe where we want action—just as we are a leading encouraged to see reference in the communiqué to this member of NATO, and just as we led that action in year being a decisive year for free trade agreements. Will Libya—but that we should quite happily stay out of my right hon. Friend do all that he can to move ahead areas that we do not feel are in our interests, such as the with the free trade agreement with Japan, which is vital Schengen no-borders agreement or the euro. to large parts of our motor manufacturing industry? The Prime Minister: I will certainly do that. I have Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Given that Germany discussed this issue with the Japanese Prime Minister grew 3% last year, and has its lowest unemployment for and with the European Union. One of the issues with 20 years and more manufacturing and a smaller pay gap Japan is non-tariff barriers, in regard to the access to than Britain, why is the Prime Minister so against the Japanese markets that British goods and services want. practice of worker representation on company boards? There is a particular advantage for us, in an economy with such a high level of services and branded goods, in The Prime Minister: One of the points about Germany ensuring that we really secure progress on the free trade is that it did not spend the last decade making its agreement, not only with Japan but with India. The economy unbalanced with a massive boom and a massive Indian economy is fairly closed off to services, and we bust. The right hon. Gentleman is right to raise the want to see it opened up. IMF forecasts, however, because they are very instructive about what is happening in Europe this year. They are Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The Prime actually forecasting higher growth for Britain than for Minister has talked about competitiveness, growth and almost any other country in the European Union, but jobs, but he skated over the fiscal compact and its fiscal they have made very chilling forecasts for countries consolidation, which could have a severe effect on jobs such as Spain and Italy, for which they are forecasting and growth. Further to the question from my right hon. quite a steep decline. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), and given that the Prime Minister thinks the eurozone is Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Will the so important to us, what influence does he think he can Prime Minister explain what it is that he has vetoed? bring to bear, as he is not part of the 25? 689 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 690

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman seems to be Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): In the last few having his cake and eating it. On the one hand, he says days, the Greek Government have said that they refuse that the treaty is tough in terms of fiscal discipline and to have their economic governance taken over by the consolidation, while on the other hand he is worried European Union. Does the Prime Minister support the about the fact that we have not signed it and are not Greeks in that, and if so, will he say so here and now? subject to it. I think it is right for this country to take measures to consolidate our fiscal position. These are The Prime Minister: The only way I can answer that difficult measures, but we can at least look the British question is to say that the Greeks have to decide themselves people in the eye and say we are doing it for our own whether they want to stay in the euro. If they do, they benefit and our own good. We are not doing it because have clearly got to meet some pretty exacting targets for we are instructed by some foreign body to get our reducing Government deficit, reducing Government debt budget under control; we are doing it in our own and accepting a very austere approach. If Greece wants national interest. to stay in the euro, those are the conditions it will have to meet. I am not Greek; I am British. We have made Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): our decision to stay out of the euro; this is their decision, The Prime Minister will well remember that nearly and we should not tell them what to do. 20 years ago, the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain and the Irish Republic left the exchange rate mechanism—the Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): It is clear that precursor of the euro. There was an exit strategy. Now the Prime Minister has considerable support within the crisis facing Europe seems to be one of solvency in Europe in seeking a more adaptable, flexible and competitive some of these countries, there is no exit strategy and it economy. Will he reassure businesses in my constituency appears that there is no money. Will the Prime Minister and elsewhere that the casting of the veto will have done reassure the British public that no funds will be given to nothing to prevent his ability to drive forward that the IMF and that we will give no more money to the agenda in Europe? European Union? The Prime Minister: What last night’s meeting proved is that there is a very strong and growing consensus for The Prime Minister: I obviously remember very well action around the European Council table on issues of the exchange rate mechanism experience. Indeed, it is competitiveness. British Ministers—and, to be fair to that experience that makes me so passionate about not Labour, British Ministers for the last 20 years—have joining the single currency or the euro—because it is so been going to Europe arguing for completing the single difficult to exit from it if it does suit our needs or our market, deregulation, lifting the burdens on business arrangements. I believe that Britain is a big enough and all those issues, and we have always had strong economy to have its own interest rates and its own supporters in the northern liberal countries, as it were, monetary policy to suit our needs. My hon. Friend asks but we have come unstuck when it comes to other for guarantees. What we have done is already to have countries. I think we now see—partly because the centre got out of the bail-out mechanism to which the last right is in power in so much of Europe—really strong Government signed us up and, as I clarified a few support for that sort of agenda, and we can certainly moments ago, we have set out very clearly our conditions drive it forward. to the IMF. Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): The Joint Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): The Prime Minister Ministerial Committee memorandum of understanding says that his veto has left the European Commission in on EU policy says that Ministers and officials from all the room to protect against encroachment on single the devolved Administrations should be involved in market issues and competitiveness. Will he remind us of discussion with the UK Government on the formulation the name of the noble baroness who represents the UK of UK policy. What discussions did the Prime Minister on that Commission and of which party will therefore or his officials have with Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast represent Britain’s last line of defence? before the European Council meeting? The Prime Minister: The point the hon. Gentleman The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, has clearly not understood is that the treaty itself sets there are arrangements for these things. Actually, the out that the treaty cannot be used to encroach on the Government have been very generous in ensuring that single market; it is there in black and white. As I have the Scottish Administration have been fully involved in, said, if that is not the case we have the ability to take for instance, fishing quota negotiations. However, I action, including legal action, to protect our national thought that the hon. Gentleman wanted to leave the interest. UK altogether. If that is the case, he will have to seek access to the European Union, and seek access to Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): My joining the euro as well. I think that he ought to read constituents really appreciate the Prime Minister’s straight the treaty and work out whether he wants to sign it. talking on this issue, so will he answer the question that Perhaps when he has made up his mind he will be able they want answering: if asked, will the Prime Minister to tell the Labour leader what to do. stump up more money for Greece? Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The Prime The Prime Minister: Our answer is very clear. We Minister said this afternoon that, if necessary, we would were not involved in the Greek bail-out, and we will not take legal action. What would trigger that legal action? be involved in European bail-outs of Greece. We have Is not the problem for the majority the fact that if they got out of the EU mechanism that the last Government stretch the European institutions to achieve greater got us into, and we have set out our conditions on the compliance, the minority may be tempted to stretch IMF very clearly. them to achieve greater independence? 691 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 692

The Prime Minister: I think that the conditions are organisations across the continent? In a nutshell, it very straightforward. As I have said, we want those asked the EU to stop centralising power, and instead to institutions to sort out the problems of the European build prosperity on liberty and responsibility. There is Union, and we want them to stick to fiscal union and an appetite throughout Europe for the kind of policies not go into single market issues. If they were to go into that my right hon. Friend’s Government are advocating. single market issues and threaten Britain’s national Does he share my hope that the leaders of the European interests, of course we would act. That seems to me to nations may abandon their outdated ideology of be a much more sensible approach than taking an centralisation and follow him instead? alternative path, because all the while we shall be maintaining some leverage over this organisation, outside The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the European Union, to ensure that it sticks to the job for his comments, and I will certainly look at the report that it is meant to do. he mentions. We in this House must understand that 17 members of the European Union have opted for a Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What, in terms of single currency—that was the big moment, when different content, is not in the EU treaty as a result of the Prime parts of Europe chose to take a slightly different path—and Minister’s not signing it? even in spite of the difficulties, those member states are The Prime Minister: I do not know whether the hon. fully committed to trying to make it work. We have to Gentleman has spotted this yet, but there is not an EU respect the view they have taken and allow them to go treaty. on and do some of the things that can make sense of the eurozone. It is not the choice that we are making; we are Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): The making a different choice. We want a competitive Europe, Prime Minister will be aware that the latest report on we want a trading Europe, we want an open Europe, but Iran by the International Atomic Energy Authority we do not want a more centralised Europe, and not contains no smoking gun whatsoever. Given that the signing this treaty—not having an EU treaty—helps us sabre-rattling and sanctions from the west have served down that path. only to strengthen the position of the hardliners, and—as is illustrated by the fact that Iran is thinking of bringing Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): When the forward the deadline for the oil embargo—have failed Ministers discussed the situation in Iran, was any concern to date, is this not the time for a fresh approach, which expressed about the bombings and assassinations currently should include ruling out the option of force? taking place and the military build-up in the area, which clearly leads to much greater tension? Will the The Prime Minister: I listened carefully to my hon. Prime Minister think again about the suggestion of the Friend’s question, and indeed I listened to him carefully hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) when he made the same case on the radio this morning, that there should be a renewed diplomatic initiative by I do not read the IAEA report in the same way as he either Britain or the European Union to try to build does, and I do not altogether trust Iran’s motives in this relations with all the power structures in Iran, rather area, but the easiest way for Iran to settle the issue is to than head down this very dangerous road towards a open up and show everyone just what it is doing. If it is war? only pursuing nuclear power and is not pursuing nuclear weaponry, the world will be able to move on, but until The Prime Minister: I am afraid I do not agree with those assurances are given, the world will not be able to the hon. Gentleman for this—reasonable, I hope—reason: move on. That is the reason for the tough action that we Iran has been offered a normal diplomatic relationship. are taking, which shows that there are alternatives to Indeed, it was offered many times by the right hon. military force. We want to ensure that we maximise the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) when he was Foreign use of all those options before considering anything Secretary. The fact is that that did not move Iran off the else. path of trying to acquire all it needs for nuclear weapons. So I think the path of sanctions, travel bans and asset Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Will the Prime freezes, and all the tough measures we are taking right Minister explain the difference between a veto and an across the EU, is the right path. It is the right alternative opt-out? to the alternatives that I think the hon. Gentleman does The Prime Minister: There is a very important difference. not welcome, and hopefully it will make the Iranian Let us consider what happened with Maastricht, for regime change its strategy. instance. There was a European Union treaty to which Britain was a full signatory. We opted out of certain Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): In December, the parts of it, but we were still subject to a huge amount of Minister for Europe said in response to my right hon. additional EU law. That is why there were so many Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) agonised debates in the House about whether it was a that good thing or a bad thing. The same can be said of all “we understand why those countries want to use the institutions, EU treaties. The difference in this case is that there is no but it is new territory and raises important issues that we will need EU treaty. We are not going to put something in front to explore with our colleagues in those other European countries.”— of the House, and nothing will be voted on, so it will [Official Report, 13 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 718.] not affect the UK. Further, today my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has said there are legal implications as a result of the Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): May I draw my discussions he has had. Does he share my concern that right hon. Friend’s attention to the initiative for a free by invoking the institutions we may well end up in a and prosperous Europe which was launched yesterday Jarndyce v. Jarndyce-type legal squabble with the European with the support of think-tanks and non-governmental Court of Justice that will not go in our favour? 693 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 694

The Prime Minister: That is not my concern; instead, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): So, you’re mad? my concern is that although there are uses of the EU institutions that are already sanctioned by existing treaties The Prime Minister: Thank you very much—you are and to which we could not possibly object, this agreement so charitable. between the 25 countries goes further than that and On unemployment, the hon. Member for Glasgow raises legal concerns. So we are right to raise them and North East (Mr Bain) is absolutely right. There was a use the leverage to try to keep this new organisation on very good and strong discussion in the European Council the straight and narrow path of fiscal union rather than and it is really worth looking in particular at examples moving over into the single currency. I do not really fear of countries that have lower youth unemployment than what my hon. Friend says, because of course people can Britain—there are many with higher youth unemployment take cases about what has been signed to the European —to see what lessons we can learn from them. Court, but that is not going to drag Britain into a treaty that we are not part of. That is another advantage of Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Does the not having signed the treaty. Prime Minister agree that the question of European bail-outs would be much less likely to arise if different Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): countries with different economies had different currencies? The Prime Minister was right to veto the treaty because Will he therefore recommend this tried-and-tested model it was against this country’s interests. The agreement for the eurozone countries? arrived at between the 25 countries is fundamentally deflationary and will not lead to growth—it will lead to The Prime Minister: We have a very strong view in mass unemployment across Europe—and is also against this country that we should keep our own currency, but this country’s interests. Rather than reneging on his that does not let us off the need for fiscal discipline, original commitment to stop the 25 using European proper monetary policy and keeping inflation under institutions, should not the Prime Minister now be control. It is not a free lunch or a free ride. We have to using all the power of his office to stop them? take tough decisions, but clearly we have to show some respect for the 17 eurozone countries that want to make The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, the euro work. It is no good wishing away what is there. as at least we have at last got a clear Labour view. The responsible thing to do is not to stand in their way Clearly he, like me, would not have signed the treaty and when they are trying to put out the fire in their own thinks Britain is better off outside the treaty. Is that the house, but to ensure that they do so in a way that does Labour position? The Leader of the Opposition can not threaten our national interests. That is exactly what just nod. That is not much to ask for. They have had I have done. 53 days to make up their minds. There are three options: yes, no or “I don’t know because I’m weak and indecisive.” Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab): I still do not know whether the Prime Minister thinks that he did not Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I welcome the reduction sign a treaty or just an agreement. Is not his real failure in regulation on small and medium-sized enterprises set his commitment to austerity and his lack of a plan for out in the statement. Will my right hon. Friend reassure jobs and growth either in the EU or in the UK? the constituents of Erewash that the priority throughout negotiations is the protection of jobs and businesses in The Prime Minister: In Europe, we have a plan for Britain? jobs and growth, which is called completing the single market. The question that the hon. Gentleman and his The Prime Minister: That is absolutely our priority. leader have to answer is about the new treaty being The more we can get the single market to work, the proposed, which 25 countries are going to sign and better it will be for British jobs, including in Derbyshire. Britain is not. [Interruption.] I do not care how bad the There is an important agenda here, and it is not just lasagne is, at some stage the shadow Chancellor and the about getting the European Commission and European Leader of the Opposition are going to have to make up Union to do things in terms of completing the single their minds. Are they for it, are they against it, or are market. It is also, sometimes, about trying to get them they weak and indecisive and cannot make up their not to do things—it is about rolling back some of the minds? bureaucracy that has been placed on business that can cost jobs and mean extra regulation. George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): Like many others, I welcome the commitment to cut the Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): Figures burden of regulation, but does the Prime Minister agree released by the EU today reveal that one in 10 people in that there could be potential to revisit the way in which the EU is out of work, including 16 million people directives were transcribed into UK law by the previous within the eurozone. Why has the Prime Minister not Labour Government, with a view to removing some of been more vocal about an increased role for the European the gold-plating that businesses complain about so much? Central Bank, including the use of eurobonds to help restore confidence to the markets and increase growth? The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very good point. There have been occasions on which EU The Prime Minister: I always think it is the first sign directives have been added to by Government Departments of madness for a politician to say, “Please go and read and implemented with more vigour than in other parts one of my speeches,” but on this occasion I will make an of the European Union. We have tried to put a stop to exception. If the hon. Gentleman reads my speech at that under this Government. the Davos summit, he will see that that is exactly what I said. Chris Bryant: Name one. 695 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 696

The Prime Minister: Horse passports—that was a may actually be helpful in that the Commission is good one. I do not think we eat horses in this country, taking infraction proceedings against a number of member but the previous Government, in their wisdom, decided states—Germany included, I think—to make sure that that every one needed a passport. That is just one they genuinely open up their professions and complete example. In future we can ensure that we do only what the single market. is absolutely necessary, rather than gold-plating. Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): On the radio today, Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): the shadow Foreign Secretary claimed that Britain had Will the Prime Minister share with the House and the lost influence in Europe. In the matters of the single country what influence, if any, his Back-Bench Eurosceptics market, competitiveness, Iran and Syria, what does the have had on his thinking during these discussions? Prime Minister feel was achieved by the British presence at the European Council? The Prime Minister: I think the Conservative party is entirely united in thinking that Britain is not right to The Prime Minister: The specific foreign policy stances sign this treaty. taken by the EU are all agreed by unanimity, which proves that agreement by unanimity is possible if there Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I is political will and drive. Almost the entire approach to congratulate the Prime Minister on defending Britain’s Iran and Syria and Burma was something that the interests, and I note what he says about Iran and Syria. British requested be discussed at the Council and we Does he think that if we had a common EU defence requested that there be a statement. I think that shows policy, HMS Dauntless would now be readying to sail that with political will, but with unanimity, it is possible to the south Atlantic? to get a lot done.

The Prime Minister: The point is this: we should Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Does the Prime make sure that NATO is the cornerstone of our defence Minister realise that the more he denies that this is and we should be very clear about our own defence effectively a European treaty, the more he reminds us of responsibilities—I have spoken about the Falklands. We comical Ali denying that an invasion had taken place need to win the argument in Europe that there is no while the tanks rolled by behind him? point in having endless competing defence headquarters. What we need throughout NATO, particularly in Europe, The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is in for a is greater defence capacity, and we need to encourage big surprise. When no treaty arrives in the House of other European partners to invest in that. Commons, he will have to do a bit of explaining.

Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): Will the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): On Iran, did Prime Minister explain how he will take action, as he the European summit discuss the planned regional says, if this non-EU treaty under which the 25 nations conference on non-proliferation of weapons of mass can take advantage of the full force of the EU institutions, destruction, and does the Prime Minister agree that it encroached on our national interest and undermined might offer a vital pathway out of an increasingly the single market? dangerous stand-off?

The Prime Minister: Let me explain: there are uses of The Prime Minister: We did not discuss that specific the EU institutions set out in previous treaties—mostly matter. It is entirely right and worth while to try to put through this House by the Labour Government—but bring regional neighbours into the debate, but I have to this treaty outside the EU goes further than that, and say that it is some of the regional powers that are the that raises legal issues. We have said very clearly, including most concerned about Iranian activity, not only in their in the EU Council last night, that if that were to own countries but in stirring up trouble elsewhere, so it encroach on the single market and threaten this country’s is probably only part of what needs to happen, which is national interest, we could take action, including legal to get the Iranian Government to change their strategic action. direction.

Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The UK is fortunate in Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The Prime Minister having many excellent professional bodies—engineers, has highlighted a growth test to ensure that all actions architects, surveyors, lawyers and so forth—but often at European Union level fully support growth and job they find it difficult to practise within the European creation. This new “I can’t believe it’s not an EU treaty” Union because of a host of national barriers to professional will prescribe prolonged and tight austerity for many practice. In the context of the single market, improving economies, affecting not only services there but trade competitiveness and creating jobs, has the Council taken and commercial capacity more widely in Europe. Would steps to remove some of those national barriers to this non-EU treaty pass any meaningful EU growth professions being able to practise throughout the EU? test?

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman is so to raise that big gap in the single market. We passed the against the treaty, I am surprised that he is not praising Single European Act all those years ago—more than me for making sure that Britain is not involved in it; I 20 years ago—yet the professions and services have still would have thought that would be the first thing that he not been properly opened up. The action we are taking would say. We have to understand that the countries of is for all Governments to agree to open up those professions, the eurozone want to take an approach that prescribes and on this occasion the European Court of Justice rules on debt and deficit. We can all have our own views 697 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 698

[The Prime Minister] financial services industry, which employs many people not just in the City of London, but right across our about whether it is the right approach or whether it is country. too tight, and all the rest of it, but that is what they want to do; I do not think that we should stand in their Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): way as it is done, but it is better done outside the The overwhelming majority of my constituents, and European Union. indeed the country, already believe that the European Union has far too much power over the United Kingdom. Several hon. Members rose— Does my right hon. Friend agree with that, and if he does, is he as amazed as me that the leader of any Mr Speaker: Order. There is still a very significant political party in this country that claimed to be in number of colleagues seeking to get in. I would like to touch with public opinion could argue otherwise? try to accommodate as many as I can, but if I am to do so, brevity is essential. The Prime Minister rose— Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): My right hon. Edward Miliband: Briefing note N. Friend the Prime Minister outlined in his speech at the Council several criteria needed for a successful monetary union, none of which have really been met by the The Prime Minister: I think it is briefing note N, and changes, however welcome, outlined there, so may I there is plenty in it; it is full. I think the best one in urge him to continue to plan, while doing everything briefing note N is on whether or not the leader of the that he can to co-operate constructively, for the likely Labour party would like to join the euro. I know that eventual break-up of the eurozone? the House enjoys this, so I might share it one more time: when asked whether he would join the euro, he said, The Prime Minister: We have to plan for all eventualities, “It depends how long I’m prime minister for.” but I would make two points. As I have said, I think we This is the one thing that the shadow Chancellor and I, have to respect the fact that the countries of the eurozone who often disagree, have in common: we are not going want to make it work. They have taken quite a number to let it happen. of steps that are painful and difficult for individual sovereign countries to take, and it must be in our Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): The German interests, because we want the European economy to Chancellor was on the radio this morning saying that grow, for them at least to take the short-term measures she firmly expected the fiscal union to be inside the EU to take the heat out of the crisis. There were some signs treaties within five years. What part of the British veto of the crisis easing at the beginning of this year, as is giving her such hope and encouragement? Italian and other bond spreads have come down, but we are far from through it. The Prime Minister: The point is that the countries that have signed the agreement want to fold it into the Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will my EU. That cannot happen without the permission of right hon. Friend expand on the basis on which we were every country, and those people who say that the veto able to find common cause with our good friends in the did not have effect perhaps need to explain why they Czech Republic? want to fold the treaty back into the European Union. It seems to me that that is a very powerful point. The Prime Minister: The point came when different countries had to decide whether they wanted to sign up to the treaty or not; it is not a treaty within the EU, so Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I welcome the statement there is no compulsion to do so. The Czechs, on 9 December, because of its focus on competition, the single market, were not sure whether they wanted to sign it. They then and energy. It is great that the Prime Minister has considered whether they wanted to, and last night they demonstrated British leadership in those fields, and he decided what to do, as everyone had to; the only person has added useful advice to the discussions, but will he who cannot seem to make a decision is the leader of the ensure that we continue to have dialogue with our Labour party, who has no idea whether he is against it, European partners? It is absolutely essential that they in favour of it, or does not know. One day, he will have know and understand where we are coming from and to decide. what we can contribute.

Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): What The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right. message does my right hon. Friend have for the great As I have said, last night’s meeting proved that it is manufacturers of this country, such as DCS Europe in perfectly possible to stay out of parts of agreements my constituency, given that President Sarkozy says that that other European countries want to go into, but have Britain does not have much manufacturing left? real influence on the things we care about, such as the single market. The Prime Minister: The point that I would make gently to my friend Nicolas Sarkozy is that, if one looks Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I welcome the at the figures, Britain actually has a higher percentage fact that the agreement places no new obligations on the of industry than France does, but we think that we need UK, but is it not the case that the agreement, whatever to rebalance even further; we want to see a growth in its merits or disadvantages, should not distract us or manufacturing, technology and aerospace, but we do our EU partners from the necessary task of ending the not believe that we should do that by damaging the barriers in the single market and reducing regulation? 699 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 700

The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important free trade agreement with Canada, Japan and India, point. Of course the eurozone countries want to see which has the potential to create thousands of jobs in rules on fiscal discipline, but as I have said many times, this country, absolutely the right one? it is not just fiscal deficits that have to be addressed, but trade deficits, and that is where the single market agenda The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. can help not only countries such as ours, but theirs too. I think that Britain is better off outside the eurozone, but clearly we need to get trade going with parts of the Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): I welcome the world that are growing faster, which is why these trade Prime Minister’s commitment to trade deals with fast- deals are so important to us. growing parts of the world. An ambitious trade deal between the EU and India, which would help us double Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The good our trade with India by 2015, has eluded negotiators folk of Brigg and Goole are under no illusions about since 2007. Does he agree that next week’s EU-India how hopelessly out of touch this House, and the Opposition summit in Delhi should see a clear timetable for the side in particular, is on the European Union, but they delivery of an ambitious deal as soon as possible? were heartened by the Prime Minister’s veto. They are similarly under no illusion about what happens in Europe: The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right, it is where assurances are given, but ultimately breached, and I know that he has a lot of experience in this sphere. and a whole new set of proposals come back. What can We are totally committed to trying to get this free trade he say to my constituents to assure them that this will agreement going. I think that there are real opportunities not become another treaty that we end up getting for both sides. I have mentioned the fact that we want to sucked into? open up retail and services in banking and insurance in India. Frankly, we will have to do quite a lot of work to The Prime Minister: We cannot be sucked into this convince the Indians that that is in their interests too, treaty because we are out of it, and we can only go into but I profoundly believe that it is, as they want to be a it if all 27—soon to be 28—EU member states agree. rapidly growing success story of the future. That is the effect of the veto. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): I welcome what the Prime Minister said about applying a growth Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am happy test to everything that the EU does in future. Will he tell to report that Mrs Bone was singing in the bath yesterday, my constituents what prospect he thinks there is of congratulating the Prime Minister on standing up for applying that test retrospectively to existing EU regulations, British interests and keeping us away from German which the British Chambers of Commerce says costs economic domination of Europe. But she was concerned, business £7.5 billion a year? because it must be pretty miserable for the Prime Minister to go to Europe when his Deputy Prime Minister forces The Prime Minister: It is important to try to look at him to take with him an unelected left-wing Liberal. At some of the existing stock of regulations, but I think the next conference, would it be possible for my right that one of the things that badly needs to be done in hon. Friend to take a moderate constituent from my Europe is making sure that it is not just when Economic constituency—perhaps Mrs Bone? Affairs Ministers get together that we think about growth, but that when Social Affairs Ministers and Environment The Prime Minister: I am just relieved that my hon. Ministers get together we think about the potential Friend did not ask me what happens if I am run over by costs of what they are signing up to. That does not a bus, which I gather is the question that he has asked happen at the moment and badly needs to. everybody else. I have been warming up for that one for some time. To be fair to the Deputy Prime Minister, I do Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I not know whether there is room in the deposition for very much welcome the Prime Minister’s statement. My Mrs Bone, and I would not want to get her out of her question relates to the discussions held on Syria. What bath. action will EU member states take to protect civilians if Russia vetoes any UN Security Council resolution on James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): the matter? I welcome the Council’s statement on Iran, but does the Prime Minister agree that the sanctions that the EU has The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise agreed on Iran really need to bite? Iran is in the last this matter. Clearly the Russians have taken a different chance saloon, so at the European Council what systems view up to now and have not supported robust action at and processes were agreed in relation to monitoring the the Security Council. My right hon. Friend the Foreign implementation of those sanctions? Secretary is trying to build the strongest possible resolution with colleagues at the Security Council and to say to the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise Russians, “If you go on vetoing or preventing these that issue. The key part of the sanctions is the oil motions, you will be completely outside not just world embargo, which is a very big step for European countries public opinion, but the very clearly expressed opinion to take. There is a time lag before it comes in, but I of the Arab League itself.” believe that it does so in July, and it is a big step, because there are countries, such as Italy, Spain and others, that Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): Is have been very reliant on Iranian crude in the past. It is not my right hon. Friend’s strategy of rejecting the an important step. Europe has quite a good record of fiscal union treaty, which would not be in Britain’s making sure that the sanctions that it imposes are put in economic interests, and at the same time pushing for a place, but I will make sure that that happens. 701 Informal European Council31 JANUARY 2012 Informal European Council 702

Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con): My constituents as Nigeria, South Africa, Ghana and others will grow warmly welcome the Prime Minister’s determination to rapidly. We already have very low tariff access from protect our interests in Europe. Will he explain how the African countries to the European Union, and one United Kingdom will, in practical terms, actually be thing we ought to try to encourage and look at is a able to prevent those countries that sign up to the fiscal pan-African free trade area, so that more of their trade union treaty utilising the European Commission and can take place within Africa and they can have an the European Court of Justice in a way that damages effective single market, as we do in the European Union. UK interests? David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): Given that EU The Prime Minister: The guarantee that they will not regulations account for 70% of the regulatory burden damage UK interests is this. First, the treaty itself is on businesses, will my right hon. Friend tell the House clear that it has to be in line with EU law; it cannot what steps are being taken to exempt micro-businesses override it, and it cannot get into areas such as the from EU legislation? single market. Secondly, as I have said in answer to previous questions, if the institutions do things that are The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important not permitted, there can be a challenge, including a point. This is a breakthrough in Europe. We have been legal challenge. But, above all, Britain is protected arguing for a moratorium on new EU regulations for because, although others are going ahead with this micro-businesses—those employing fewer than 10 people— treaty outside the European Union, we are not part of and that was agreed to at the European Council. We it. need to ensure that it is put in place rapidly.

Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): I thank my right Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): The hon. Friend for his statement and for bringing greater Prime Minister is to be congratulated on what he and clarity to Britain’s position, because these are complicated others achieved with the sanctions on Iran. Will he tell issues. My constituents in Dudley South were very the House whether there have been discussions between grateful for his exercise of the veto last month, but is the the European Union and Asian countries so that Iran ECJ, as an institution of the whole European Union, cannot sell to Asia the oil that it is now not selling to not now being unjustly used? Europe? Otherwise, we will be back in the position where we were before. The Prime Minister: As I said, in pre-existing treaties there are ways in which the European institutions can The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise be used by groups of member states. That is a fact, and that issue. There are two things that we need to do. those treaties, as I said, tend to be passed by the Labour First, we must ensure that countries that can increase party. But, if member states go beyond that, there are production, such as Saudi Arabia, sell more oil to the real legal issues, and legal issues that I have set out; and, countries in Europe that were reliant on Iranian crude. if that were to happen, we would be able to take action We then need to persuade Asian countries that might to protect our national interest. buy Iranian crude not to do the deals that they might otherwise have planned. We need to take action on both Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): I trust my fronts. right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to do what is right for Britain, but I do not necessarily trust his successors. Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): I strongly After all, we saw the previous Government give up our welcome the agreement to reduce regulatory burdens on hard-fought opt-out from the social chapter and give up SMEs and micro-enterprises. Although I do not expect our hard-fought budget rebate. What guarantees are the Prime Minister to give us a list today, will he tell the there that the UK will not be sucked into this new House when we can expect to see more detail on precisely treaty? which regulatory burdens small businesses in my constituency might see reduced and when? The Prime Minister: One of the best guarantees is the referendum lock, which we have in place in this country, The Prime Minister: The formal European Council which this House of Commons passed, which the Labour on the single market, competitiveness and the economy party opposed and which says that, if we propose any is in March. This was a special European Council to passage of power from Westminster to Brussels, there kick-start progress on the single market. I hope that has to be a referendum. That is absolutely key to after the March Council we will have a specific list for protecting our interests and to making sure that future my hon. Friend. Governments cannot give away powers that they should not. Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): I welcome the commitments to bring down trade barriers and encourage Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): The Prime trade outside the European Union. Will my right hon. Minister has made clear his determination to secure free Friend expand on the opportunities that British business trade agreements with, among others, India, but will he will have for increased jobs, trade and commerce throughout agree to pursue with equal vigour similar opportunities the world? in the emerging markets of Africa? The Prime Minister: This is an important point. In The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very our trade with India and China over the past couple of important point. If we look at which continents are years, we have seen increases of more than 20%. As going to grow over the next decade, we find that Africa there is a difficult situation in European markets, we has a very healthy growth rate and that countries such have to look to the faster-growing markets of the world 703 Informal European Council 31 JANUARY 2012 704 to grow our exports. That means great challenges for Points of Order businesses. They have to get out there and sell. The Government have to get behind them. We need to help 4.59 pm by opening up those markets, and particularly by allowing Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, services full access to those markets. That is why the free Mr Speaker. You will know that the ministerial code of trade deals are so important. conduct makes it clear that Ministers have to provide timely answers to written questions tabled by Members Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will my right hon. of the House, which is underlined by a motion of the Friend say whether there were any discussions about the House. cost of oil and the geopolitical threats that might increase Last December, I tabled three questions to the Secretary that cost? Will any action be taken by the EU to reduce of State for the Home Department for named day the cost of oil and thereby reduce the price at the pump answer on 14 December, and then another two on for motorists? 20 December for answer on 10 January. I have still had no reply, so last week I decided that I would table a The Prime Minister: We did not discuss the cost of question asking when I was going to get an answer to oil. As I have said, Saudi Arabian production is an those questions. I was very excited yesterday to get a important issue. The completion of the energy single reply, which said, “I will reply as soon as possible.” market should help to bring energy prices down, because Surely the ministerial code means that we must get it will make the energy markets in Europe more efficient substantive replies, not evasive ones that make it look as and ensure that there is a proper networked energy grid though a question has been answered when it has not around Europe. actually been answered.

Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): More than 1 Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for million people are employed in the financial services his point of order, and I would say two things in sector across the United Kingdom. Does the Prime response to him. First, he is of course right that the Minister agree that many of those jobs could have been reply that is forthcoming should be not only timely but exposed to a significant degree if he had not used his substantive. It is not good enough for Ministers to veto in December and secured the agreement yesterday? provide holding replies in such circumstances, particularly when they are provided very late, simply saying, “I will The Prime Minister: It is important to remember that reply as soon as possible.” It must be a substantive reply. the financial services industry is not just the City of Secondly, moderately vivid imagination though I possess, London; it employs 100,000 people in Birmingham and a fact to which I made reference in responding to more than 100,000 people in Scotland. It is important someone last week, I really cannot imagine a colleague that we stand up for those people. Obviously, there is whom it is more impolitic or foolish to fail timeously to still the danger of eurozone countries going ahead with answer than the hon. Gentleman, for there is no colleague financial transactions taxes. However, Britain is making more absolutely certain to make a very substantial and the case strongly that there are ways to ensure that the justified fuss about it for some considerable period after financial services industry pays its fair share through the non-event. bank levies and the stamp duty on share transactions, Chris Bryant: Is that a compliment? without having a financial transactions tax, which would drive these activities to areas of the world that do not Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman should take his apply it. It does not work and the European Commission compliments when they come to him. It was. has said that it does not work. That is why we should The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice reject it. (Mr Crispin Blunt): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In the course of oral questions earlier, there were a number Mr Speaker: I thank the Prime Minister and the of questions about the deaths of Alex Kelly and Jake House for their succinctness, which enabled 72 Back Hardy in youth custody, and in my replies I said that Benchers to question the Prime Minister in 66 minutes there had not been a death in custody of such a kind of exclusively Back-Bench time. That shows what we since 2007. Of course, that overlooked the case of Ryan can do when we put our minds to it. I am grateful to Clark, who died in April 2011 and for whom an inquest colleagues. verdict is still awaited. I should like to take this opportunity to correct the record. Mr Speaker: I am most grateful to the Minister for doing so, and for doing so as promptly as he has. It will be noted and appreciated by the House. BILLS PRESENTED

DEPARTMENT FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS (RELOCATION TO BRISTOL)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to Bristol; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 279). 705 Points of Order31 JANUARY 2012 Points of Order 706

DEPARTMENT FOR BUSINESS,INNOVATION AND SKILLS John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary (RELOCATION TO SHEFFIELD)BILL of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) for Communities and Local Government to Liverpool; and for connected purposes. John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on for Business, Innovation and Skills to Sheffield; and for Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 286). connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on ENGLISH POLICE FORCES BILL Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 280). Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) John Mann presented a Bill to reduce the number of DEPARTMENT FOR TRANSPORT (RELOCATION TO police forces in England to ten; and for connected BIRMINGHAM)BILL purposes. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 287). of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department for Transport to Birmingham; and for connected purposes. LOCAL GOVERNMENT (AMENDMENT)BILL Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 281). John Mann presented a Bill to amend the Local Government Act 1992 to allow for the establishment of DEPARTMENT FOR CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT unitary authorities throughout England; and for connected (RELOCATION TO MANCHESTER)BILL purposes. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 288). of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport to Manchester; and for ARMED FORCES (GERMANY)BILL connected purposes, Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 282). of State to repatriate to the United Kingdom before the end of 2015 all British military personnel serving on DEPARTMENT FOR EDUCATION (RELOCATION TO British military bases in Germany; and for connected NOTTINGHAM)BILL purposes. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 289). of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department for Education to Nottingham; and for connected purposes. CHILD BENEFIT (AMENDMENT)BILL Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 283). John Mann presented a Bill to amend the Child Benefit Act 2005 to disqualify nationals of European DEPARTMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Union member states other than the United Kingdom (RELOCATION TO NEWCASTLE)BILL who are resident in the United Kingdom with children Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) living overseas from eligibility for child benefit payments; and for connected purposes. John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on for International Development to Newcastle; and for Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 290). connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on PARLIAMENT (AMENDMENT)(NO.2)BILL Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 284). Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) John Mann presented a Bill to make provision to DEPARTMENT FOR WORK AND PENSIONS (RELOCATION limit the membership of the House of Lords to 300 TO LEEDS)BILL unpaid members; and for connected purposes. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on John Mann presented a Bill to require the Secretary Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 291). of State to relocate the headquarters of the Department for Work and Pensions to Leeds; and for connected LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE (AMENDMENT)BILL purposes. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on John Mann presented a Bill to amend the Local Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 285). Government Finance Act 1992 to provide for an additional council tax band applicable to second homes; and for DEPARTMENT FOR COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL connected purposes. GOVERNMENT (RELOCATION TO LIVERPOOL)BILL Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 292). 707 Points of Order31 JANUARY 2012 Points of Order 708

LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE (AMENDMENT) Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on (NO.2)BILL Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 297). Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) John Mann presented a Bill to amend the Local PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS (AMENDMENT)(NO.2) Government Finance Act 1992 to provide for three BILL additional council tax bands applicable to homes valued Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) at over £500,000, £1 million and £1.5 million respectively; and for connected purposes. John Mann presented a Bill to provide that Ministerial salaries shall not exceed the basic salary paid to Members Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on of Parliament by more than 25 per cent.; and for Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 293). connected purposes.

PUBLIC SECTOR SALARIES BILL Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 298). Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) John Mann presented a Bill to stipulate a maximum Mr Speaker: Hon. Members have a date for their salary for public sector employees; and for connected diaries, and it is clear that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw purposes. (John Mann) is an exceptionally busy bee. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 294). Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. PUBLIC SECTOR BONUSES BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr Speaker: Order. We will come to the right hon. John Mann presented a Bill to prohibit the payment Gentleman. We are saving him up and we will keep the of bonus payments to higher rate taxpayers working in best until last. the public sector; and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 295). RECALL OF ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES (NO.2)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) CORPORATE TAX REDUCTIONS BILL Zac Goldsmith presented a Bill to permit voters to Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) recall their elected representatives in specified circumstances; John Mann presented a Bill to require the authorisation and for connected purposes. by Parliament of corporate tax reductions by amounts Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on exceeding £100,000 by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs; Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 300). and for connected purposes. Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Mr George Howarth: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 296). Will you assist the House by letting us know whether somebody has amended the number of hours in the day MINISTERIAL AND OTHER PENSIONS AND SALARIES on Friday 27 April? (AMENDMENT)BILL Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) Mr Speaker: Not yet, but don’t encourage them— John Mann presented a Bill to abolish the payment of [Laughter.] I am glad that the House is in such an grants to persons ceasing to hold Ministerial and other upbeat and buoyant mood. offices; and for connected purposes. 709 31 JANUARY 2012 Electricity Generation (Wales) 710

Electricity Generation (Wales) accept as an article of faith. We want a future for Wales in which we can stand on our own two feet and chart Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order our own course in history. No. 23) Our natural resources offer huge opportunities for our country, but if those opportunities are to be realised, 5.6 pm those resources need to be utilised in the interests of our Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) country and our people. We cannot allow our natural (PC): I beg to move, resources to be pillaged for the benefit of others as our iron, coal and gold reserves were. This will be a major That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide that powers relating to energy generation in Wales be devolved to the National political dividing line for the future, and there are clear Assembly for Wales; and for connected purposes. dangers for politicians who continue to treat Wales as a The Welsh people are very protective of their natural second-class nation. resources. It was the UK Government’s decision in the Although responsibility for energy generating stations 1960s to allow Liverpool Corporation to drown a Welsh is completely devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland, valley and the Welsh-speaking village of Capel Celyn we in Wales have responsibility only for energy generation that led to my party, Plaid Cymru, winning the historic stations that generate up to a risible 50 MW. Where I Carmarthen by-election in 1966. That seismic moment come from politically, what is good enough for Northern in the history of these isles also led to our Scottish sister Ireland and Scotland is good enough for Wales. We party’s securing representation in the House, and the were given no reason in the debate I introduced last speeding up of the political dynamic that led to the September why Wales had received such inferior status. creation of devolved Government and legislatures in In the past 12 months, all three Unionist parties Scotland and Wales. pledged in the National Assembly elections in Wales to We are living in historic times, and if the British state increase the arbitrary 50 MW level to 100 MW for is to survive there needs to be a radical realignment that renewables. Is that progress? It is, but perhaps not at the appeases the aspirations of the Celtic peoples of these speed I want. When given the opportunity to introduce islands to govern themselves and shape their own future. that policy in the Localism Act 2011—schedule 13 to In the case of Scotland, it is probably too late. the Act, to be precise—the UK Government failed Wales is an energy-rich nation. According to the to do introduce the pledges of their Welsh branches. Welsh Government, we have the potential to produce I thank the hon. Members for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) twice the electricity we require for our needs. According and for WorthingWest (Sir Peter Bottomley) for supporting to the Department of Energy and Climate Change here my Bill and for displaying consistency with the promises in London, we are a net exporter of electricity. Yet in made to the people of Wales last year by their respective Wales, energy prices are among the highest in the British parties. I had hoped to amend the Act with a new state, and we have some of the highest energy poverty clause, but alas it was not debated, so I am grateful for levels. Clearly, something is going wrong somewhere. the opportunity to present this Bill. Unfortunately, some Unionist politicians seem happy There is no stronger message in Welsh politics than to accept that unjust situation. equality with Scotland and I look forward to using that The topic of my maiden speech was fuel poverty. battle cry in a different context after autumn 2014, Having worked for the CAB movement before entering certainly in respect of energy powers. The previous the House, I became acutely aware of the blight of fuel Welsh Government were in favour of increasing the poverty on our communities. I remember doing a radio limit to 100 MW, as are the Labour Government in phone-in interview for the BBC, when somebody phoned Wales in relation to renewables. Civic and environmental in to explain that he depended on using a hairdryer to organisations also support the policy—the Campaign heat his flat during the winter. The fact that using such a for the Protection of Rural Wales and Friend of the device is more costly than orthodox heating methods Earth included it in their National Assembly manifestos. misses the point. It shows the desperation that many The communities I represent in Carmarthen East and households face in my country. Dinefwr also support the policy. My constituency contains With, according to the campaign group National two of the seven strategic search areas earmarked for Energy Action Wales, a quarter of Welsh households in renewables developments in Wales in the Welsh fuel poverty, we need radical solutions. I would like to Government’s 2005 technical advice note 8—TAN put it on record that I am disappointed to read reports 8—policy document. That was a crude exercise if the in the press this week that the Welsh Government have truth be told, with lines drawn on a map, mostly on decided to scrap their fuel poverty advisory body, on Forestry Commission land, to earmark where onshore which I once served. wind developments would henceforth be located. Nobody in an energy-rich nation should suffer from The major problem is that developments above and fuel poverty so my party and I view control of our below the 50 MW threshold are decided by different natural resources, energy-generation planning policy planning criteria. Those below the limit are processed and energy policy as a whole as a key element of dealing by the local planning authority, which in this case is with some of the major social justice issues we face. Carmarthenshire country council, and those above the limit Control over energy policy is also a key element of are, for the next few months, the preserve of the our vision of creating a new, dynamic economy for our Infrastructure Planning Commission. They will be the country. Indeed, sustainable development is written into preserve of UK Government Ministers thereafter. the constitution of Wales as a legislative country. We I am delighted that the UK Government scrapped reject the vision of dependence and fiscal transfers from the IPC in the Act. Indeed, scrapping that body was one a self-serving London elite that some of our opponents of my major pledges during the last Westminster elections. 711 Electricity Generation (Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Electricity Generation (Wales) 712

I am delighted that the coalition Government have I believe in practical devolution. Less than 12 months delivered for me on that one, but the key question of ago, a referendum was held on giving the National where those powers should reside has left me and my Assembly for Wales extra powers in areas that were constituents extremely disappointed. Instead of devolving already devolved. I and the Labour party supported the powers to Wales, the UK Government have retained that, and I worked alongside the hon. Member for them within the Department of Energy and Climate Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). Change here in London, in the hands of Ministers far That referendum gave the National Assembly for Wales removed from the issues in the communities that I the tools to carry out and deliver, which is the Welsh represent. Government’s priority, and rightly so. They are delivering TAN 8 area G is located in the Brechfa forest in north in the areas of health, education and economic Carmarthenshire, an area that is world famous for its development, and I want to see them work in partnership rally car stages. At least three major developments are with the UK Government and local government. to be located within the area. The first—the Alltwalis In no area is it more important to work in partnership scheme—was below the 50 MW level. As a result of a than on energy, where responsibilities for large infrastructure string of problems associated with that development, reside at the UK level, while planning and environmental my party’s councillors on the local authority have been issues are shared between the Welsh Government and presenting mitigating measures to improve the local local government. The present balance is right. Energy planning authority’s policies to protect the communities security is one of the biggest issues facing the UK. We of the affected area,. They include introducing a substantial need a proper UK strategy on generation, transmission buffer zone and operating conditions. This is called and developing new technologies as we move—I think democracy—when local politicians react to the problems this is the aim of everybody in the House—towards a faced by those they serve. low-carbon economy. However, the remaining developments are above the The hon. Gentleman often says that Wales is a net 50 MW level and will be determined by Ministers in exporter of electricity, and he did so again today. However, London. The improvements to planning policy that we he often fails to mention—he did so again today—that are working on in Carmarthenshire will not be adopted between 32% and 40% of the electricity used in Wales is here. Development will be very much a free-for-all, with produced from nuclear power at Wylfa in my constituency. no protection for local residents. Indeed, in answer to a My constituency is in line for a new Wylfa B power written question from me, the Secretary of State has not station, which could produce three times the current even bothered to visit the development in my constituency level of nuclear power and make Wales self-sufficient in to gauge the concerns of those affected. That is clearly low-carbon nuclear power, as well as creating hundreds unsatisfactory. What faith can my constituents have in a of jobs. system that gives them absolutely no control over Plaid Cymru’s policy on nuclear power is as clear as developments on their doorstep? How can a system mud. Its leader—my Assembly Member—supports nuclear under which major planning decisions are taken by an power on Anglesey. Its president told me on Friday that alien Westminster Government, and not by democratic she and her party were against it. I believe that the bodies in Wales, be just? party’s parliamentary leader, the right hon. Member for The Bill will mean the people of Wales gaining control Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), is in favour of it. over the Crown Estate in Wales so that the huge potential Talk about mixed messages! of tidal and wave power on the Welsh coastline is What is needed on energy policy is clarity and stability utilised as part of our energy strategy. Control over our to attract the right investment and deliver a low-carbon energy resources matters because, without it, we are economy. Whichever Government are in power in limited in what we can do to reach our potential as a Westminster, electricity market reform is needed to deliver country, to grow a new economy for Wales and to help investment in grid infrastructure, transmission, generation the vulnerable. and new and established technologies for the future. As I would like to finish by quoting that great Welsh a member of the Energy and Climate Change Committee, political philosopher D. J. Williams, from Rhydcymerau, I hear regularly from experts and academics, the industry in my constituency. This is a translation, and I hope the and environmentalists about the need for clear policies great man will forgive me: at the UK level. “It may be said that there is a divine right to anything on earth. The Labour party supports increasing the Assembly’s The right over the land of Wales belongs to the Welsh nation, and devolved powers over renewable energy. We put that in no alien, whoever he be.” our Assembly manifesto and argued for it in the House Diolch yn fawr iawn. when we debated the Energy Bill—my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) did so—but unfortunately it was not taken up. Nevertheless, this 5.16 pm House is the place to debate energy issues, and there will be opportunities for that in the future. My party will Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I rise to oppose the argue that line consistently. However, some renewable motion and do so as someone who is pro-devolution, technologies, such as biomass and wind technology, are pro-Welsh and pro-UK, and I can hardly be called the growing considerably, and we need to consider devolving London elite. to the Welsh Assembly Government powers in respect of larger megawatt capacities. Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Only when you’re doing As the Minister of State, Department of Energy and somersaults. Climate Change, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) knows, my area aspires to be an energy island—it Albert Owen: I will come to somersaults in a minute. has adopted that concept—and in partnership with the 713 Electricity Generation (Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Electricity Generation (Wales) 714

[Albert Owen] Brennan, Kevin Heaton-Harris, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Hendrick, Mark Welsh Assembly Government is working to become an Brown, Lyn Hepburn, Mr Stephen energy enterprise zone in order to create jobs and Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hilling, Julie encourage the technologies and research and development Brown, Mr Russell Hinds, Damian in Anglesey. All levels of government are working together Bruce, Fiona Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Bryant, Chris Hollingbery, George on that. That is a microcosm of how the UK is developing Cairns, Alun Hollobone, Mr Philip its technologies to meet its low-carbon objectives. And Campbell, Mr Alan Hopkins, Kelvin yes, nuclear energy is at the core of that. Campbell, Mr Ronnie Howarth, rh Mr George That case is a good example of partnership working Chapman, Mrs Jenny Irranca-Davies, Huw between the Welsh Government, all levels of government Chope, Mr Christopher Jackson, Mr Stewart and stakeholders, and I believe that it strikes the right Clappison, Mr James James, Mrs Siân C. balance. Such a clear demarcation line is what is needed, Clark, Katy Jamieson, Cathy and it is what businesses, including international businesses Clarke, rh Mr Tom Jenkin, Mr Bernard wanting to develop and invest in Wales and the rest of Clwyd, rh Ann Johnson, Gareth the United Kingdom, say that they want. However, the Coaker, Vernon Jones, Graham Coffey, Dr Thérèse Jones, Helen ten-minute rule motion is far from clear and sends the Crausby, Mr David Jones, Mr Kevan wrong messages to investors who want to invest in my Creasy, Stella Jones, Mr Marcus constituency, in Wales and in the rest of the United Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Kingdom. I urge right hon. and hon. Members to Cunningham, Alex Joyce, Eric oppose it. Cunningham, Tony Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Question put (Standing Order No. 23). Curran, Margaret Kelly, Chris Danczuk, Simon Kirby, Simon The House divided: Ayes 44, Noes 239. David, Mr Wayne Knight, rh Mr Greg Division No. 445] [5.22 pm Davies, David T. C. Kwarteng, Kwasi (Monmouth) Laing, Mrs Eleanor AYES Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Davis, rh Mr David Lazarowicz, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan McCrea, Dr William Dinenage, Caroline Lefroy, Jeremy Bottomley, Sir Peter Munt, Tessa Dobbin, Jim Leigh, Mr Edward Brake, rh Tom Percy, Andrew Docherty, Thomas Leslie, Chris Brooke, Annette Pugh, John Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Bruce, rh Malcolm Reid, Mr Alan Doyle, Gemma Lloyd, Tony Crockart, Mike Robertson, Angus Dugher, Michael Lopresti, Jack Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Rogerson, Dan Elliott, Julie Lord, Jonathan Durkan, Mark Russell, Sir Bob Ellis, Michael Lucas, Ian Edwards, Jonathan Sanders, Mr Adrian Ellison, Jane Malhotra, Seema Farron, Tim Simpson, David Esterson, Bill Mann, John Flynn, Paul Smith, Henry Eustice, George McCann, Mr Michael Foster, rh Mr Don Smith, Sir Robert Evans, Chris McCartney, Karl George, Andrew Swales, Ian Fitzpatrick, Jim McClymont, Gregg Gilbert, Stephen Thurso, John Flello, Robert McFadden, rh Mr Pat Goldsmith, Zac Ward, Mr David Fovargue, Yvonne McGovern, Jim Hancock, Mr Mike Williams, Hywel Francis, Dr Hywel McKechin, Ann Hemming, John Williams, Mr Mark Freer, Mike McKenzie, Mr Iain Horwood, Martin Williams, Roger Fullbrook, Lorraine McKinnell, Catherine Hughes, rh Simon Williams, Stephen Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Huppert, Dr Julian Willott, Jenny Gardiner, Barry Meale, Sir Alan Leech, Mr John Garnier, Mark Mearns, Ian Lloyd, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Gilmore, Sheila Mensch, Louise Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Pete Wishart and Glass, Pat Mercer, Patrick MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Caroline Lucas Glen, John Michael, rh Alun Glindon, Mrs Mary Mills, Nigel NOES Gray, Mr James Mitchell, Austin Greatrex, Tom Moore, rh Michael Abbott, Ms Diane Barron, rh Mr Kevin Greenwood, Lilian Mordaunt, Penny Abrahams, Debbie Bebb, Guto Griffith, Nia Morden, Jessica Afriyie, Adam Begg, Dame Anne Griffiths, Andrew Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Bell, Sir Stuart Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Alexander, Heidi Benton, Mr Joe Gwynne, Andrew Morris, Anne Marie Ali, Rushanara Betts, Mr Clive Halfon, Robert Morris, Grahame M. Allen, Mr Graham Bingham, Andrew Hamilton, Mr David (Easington) Andrew, Stuart Blackman, Bob Hamilton, Fabian Mowat, David Ashworth, Jonathan Blears, rh Hazel Hanson, rh Mr David Munn, Meg Austin, Ian Blenkinsop, Tom Harrington, Richard Murphy, rh Mr Jim Bacon, Mr Richard Blomfield, Paul Harris, Rebecca Murphy, rh Paul Bailey, Mr Adrian Blunkett, rh Mr David Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Bain, Mr William Bone, Mr Peter Hart, Simon Murray, Sheryll Baldwin, Harriett Bradley, Karen Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Banks, Gordon Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Heald, Oliver Nash, Pamela Baron, Mr John Brazier, Mr Julian Healey, rh John Nokes, Caroline 715 Electricity Generation (Wales) 31 JANUARY 2012 716

Nuttall, Mr David Stewart, Rory Local Government Finance Bill O’Donnell, Fiona Straw, rh Mr Jack Offord, Mr Matthew Stringer, Graham Owen, Albert Stuart, Ms Gisela [3RD ALLOCATED DAY] Parish, Neil Stuart, Mr Graham Further considered in Committee Pawsey, Mark Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Pearce, Teresa Syms, Mr Robert Perkins, Toby Tami, Mark [DAWN PRIMAROLO in the Chair] Phillips, Stephen Thomas, Mr Gareth Pincher, Christopher Thornberry, Emily Clause 8 Pound, Stephen Tomlinson, Justin Qureshi, Yasmin Turner, Mr Andrew COUNCIL TAX REDUCTION SCHEMES Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Turner, Karl Reckless, Mark Twigg, Derek 5.34 pm Rees-Mogg, Jacob Twigg, Stephen Riordan, Mrs Linda Tyrie, Mr Andrew Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): Robertson, Mr Laurence Uppal, Paul I beg to move amendment 79, page 4, line 35, at end Rosindell, Andrew Vaz, rh Keith insert— Roy, Mr Frank Vickers, Martin ‘(1) Each local authority in preparing its council tax reduction Roy, Lindsay Walker, Mr Robin scheme should start on the basis that, all other factors being the Ruane, Chris Walley, Joan same, the total cost should be no greater or less than in the Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Walter, Mr Robert previous financial year.’. Sarwar, Anas Watson, Mr Tom Scott, Mr Lee Weatherley, Mike Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this Sharma, Mr Virendra Wharton, James it will be convenient to discuss the following: Sheerman, Mr Barry Whitehead, Dr Alan Amendment 85, page 5, line 19, at end insert— Shepherd, Mr Richard Whittaker, Craig ‘(5A) Any grant payable to a local authority in England in Williamson, Chris Sheridan, Jim support of a council tax reduction scheme for a financial year Skinner, Mr Dennis Wilson, Phil beginning with 1 April 2013 shall not be less than the amount Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wright, David paid in council tax benefit subsidy for the financial year Spellar, rh Mr John Wright, Mr Iain beginning with 1 April 2012. Stevenson, John Tellers for the Noes: (5B) The total amount of any grant payable to a local Stewart, Bob Nick Smith and authority in England will be assessed each year or financial year Stewart, Iain Mr Dave Watts beginning with 1 April 2013 in line with the Government’s New Burdens Doctrine.’. Question accordingly negatived. Amendment 80, line 31, at end insert— ‘(5A) The Secretary of State must ensure that local authorities receive no less in subsidies under the council tax reduction schemes than they would have expected to receive under the earlier scheme.’. Amendment 78, in schedule 4, page 49, line 39, at end insert— ‘(2A) In circumstances where a deficit arises in the billing authority’s collection fund the authority shall be able to make an application to the Secretary of State for a payment to cover that deficit.’. New clause 11—Payment of additional grant ‘The Secretary of State shall be required to pay an additional grant to a local authority if, at the end of any financial year, the total expenditure incurred by the authority under any scheme approved pursuant to Schedule 4 of this Act is greater than the amount of grant received from the Secretary of State to fund the scheme. The amount paid to the authority shall be the difference between the sum originally received and the total cost to the authority of the scheme.’. Mr Raynsford: Amendment 79 and the linked amendments, 78 and 80, aim to put this part of the Bill, which devolves responsibility for council tax rebates to local authorities, on the same basis as the earlier parts of the Bill, which we have debated over the past two weeks. Those parts sought to localise business rate revenue. Hon. Members will recall that, during the debates on the business rate localisation, Ministers were emphatic in insisting that the baseline from which the new business rate arrangements would operate should not involve any local authority losing revenue. In other words, the scheme was designed to be revenue neutral in year 1. That is precisely what the amendments seek to achieve for the new local council tax reduction schemes. 717 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 718

[Mr Raynsford] know exactly what they are doing and that they are doing it so that when people get angry locally, the My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East Secretary of State can stand by and say that it is not his (Mr Betts), the Chair of the Select Committee, seeks to fault, but the local council’s fault? achieve a similar result through his amendment 85, which is linked to this group. My hon. Friend the Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend makes a very good Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) has tabled point. Frankly, I am very surprised indeed that Lib new clause 11, also linked to this group, which seeks to Dem members of the coalition are going along with protect local authorities from any additional costs that this—[Interruption.] I am pleased to hear the hon. might fall on them during the course of a year. That Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) say what might happen, for example, as a consequence of more he does; I hope he will demonstrate that in the Division people becoming eligible to claim benefits if a local Lobby later. factory were to close, or if more people were to lose I am surprised that Conservative Members who have their jobs for other reasons. Currently, local authorities experience of local government, and who must be well are reimbursed for unforeseen expenditure, and Government aware of the pressures that the Government’s measures grant meets the full cost of the benefit scheme, which is will impose on their local government colleagues, are of course an integral part of the overall national scheme prepared to support such a draconian and ill-thought-out of welfare benefits, including housing benefits, that are package. Cutting 10% of the cost of council tax benefits the responsibility of the Department for Work and at the outset is bad enough, but obliging councils to Pensions. take the downside risk of a further rise in costs in-year, Some would query the logic of separating council tax and imposing conditions that will inevitably force heavier benefit from the other benefits at a time when the cuts on some categories of recipient, adds insult to Government are arguing for simplifying the whole benefit injury. structure through the universal credit. However, I do To cap it all, imposing an unreasonably tight not propose to pursue that argument today. There are implementation timetable without allowing adequate good reasons for localising this aspect of benefits to time for local authorities to prepare demonstrates a local authorities, but there is no justification for doing it cavalier disregard for the interests of those authorities, in a way that imposes harsh cuts in benefits from the which, not surprisingly, are demonstrating growing alarm. outset and leaves local authorities, and therefore benefit The Government should pause to think about why local recipients, vulnerable to further cuts because they have authorities, which ought to be welcoming a measure to take the downside risk of any increased expenditure whose intention is localist, are expressing such grave caused by additional benefit claims in-year. reservations about the implications of this scheme. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Do not the Government’s proposals introduce some quite Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD):Let me substantial financial risks for local authorities, not least first declare my interest as one who is still a member of that there are no real needs-based criteria for authorities, a local authority. as we discussed in earlier sittings of the Committee? Is the right hon. Gentleman, like me, aware that some Every local authority is different in its make-up and authorities have expressed the fear that they will have to economic circumstances might change within financial make cuts in this year’s expenditure to prepare the years, so there needs to be a mechanism to reflect that ground for the implementation of the measure? Once need. again, the Government are showing no semblance of care about what they are imposing on such authorities. Mr Raynsford: My hon. Friend makes an important point about the assessment of need. The framework Mr Raynsford: The hon. Gentleman makes a very imposed by the Government will certainly require local good point. Any prudent local authority treasurer who authorities to make very deep cuts in benefit payments takes account of the element of risk that is being to certain categories of people. We will go on to explore transferred will inevitably say that there must be cuts in some of the implications in later debates; suffice it to addition to those required by the Government, to provide say for now that it really is a travesty of localism to say a cushion against possible circumstances that cannot to local authorities, “We are giving you this new yet be anticipated. responsibility, but we are shackling your ability to do Amendment 79 requires local authorities, in planning the job properly by imposing, first, an immediate 10% their council tax rebate schemes, to start from the budget cut and, secondly, a total transfer of risk for any premise that, all other factors being equal, the overall future increases in cost; and, thirdly, by requiring you to cost of the new scheme should be no more and no less do this to a rushed timetable that does not allow you than the cost in the previous year. In other words, it adequate time to consult local residents to test the requires a neutral baseline that avoids arbitrary cuts, impact of different models for the new scheme, posing a but also protects Government against the risk that local serious risk that the software will not be ready in time to largesse will increase their own costs. That arrangement allow orderly implementation.” I am afraid to say that is utterly fair, and will operate in just the same way as this is a very sad example of a badly conceived scheme the arrangement that we all agreed was appropriate for being rushed through by a Government who are not the introduction of the localisation of the retention of themselves going to face the consequences. Local authorities business rates. will face the consequences of a lot of very angry and very unhappy residents. The system that I propose will not inhibit local authorities from making changes in the current rebate scheme to Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): On that reflect their local circumstances or priorities. Provided point, does my right hon. Friend agree that the Government that the overall effect is cost-neutral, they will be free 719 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 720 to make as many changes as they wish. This is a truly basis that local authorities will have the same amount of localist approach, allowing local discretion without money in 2013 as in 2012-13, so that we have a consistent imposing unreasonable and arbitrary central diktats. base from which to develop and implement the new Amendment 80 refers to central Government support scheme. for local expenditure on council tax rebates. It requires I am in favour of localising council benefits and of the Secretary of State to ensure that local authorities not incorporating the reduction scheme into the universal receive no less subsidy than they would have expected credit scheme. I know that there are differences of view under the previous scheme. Again there will be a neutral on that even within parties, but linking council tax baseline: a starting point at which the Government will benefits with the term “benefit” has discouraged many not be exposed to higher costs, but equally local authorities people from applying for something to which they are will not be exposed to the risks that are implicit in the entitled. In the previous Parliament, the Select Committee Government’s proposals. Amendment 78 is designed to conducted an inquiry into the council tax benefit system cover the risk of unforeseen increases in expenditure and suggested that it should, perhaps, be renamed precisely in-year if the number of claims increases by making because the word “benefit” discouraged some people— clear that authorities may apply for reimbursement of especially those who applied for nothing else and who those costs. were not entitled to anything else—from applying for it. After all, it has one of the lowest take-ups of any Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Having read benefit, particularly among pensioners. Often, they are amendment 78, I assume that if it were passed any forgoing merely £2, £3 or £4 a week, but that can be a losses on collection of council tax would enable a local relatively important sum for people on relatively low authority to apply to the Secretary of State for incomes. reimbursement. As the right hon. Gentleman will know As I have said, I support the introduction of this from his long experience, the effect would be to cause reduction scheme and its both being clearly outside virtually every local authority in the country to suffer universal credit and being linked to council tax in such a losses on council tax collection. His amendment would way that people pay a reduced amount of that tax. I open the door for every local authority to apply for should point out that earlier today the Minister defended reimbursement. the imposition of an unwanted referendum for local mayors in Sheffield by his Lib Dem colleagues on the Mr Raynsford: If the hon. Gentleman looks carefully city’s council, yet he will now extol the benefits of at the wording of the amendment, he will see that it council tax. That is a somewhat different position from allows local authorities to apply, but does not require the one he would have adopted only a few months ago. the Secretary of State to pay. In new clause 11, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Although there is general support for the Government’s Benn) proposes to go further by requiring the Secretary proposed change, there is also a problem. If one of the of State to reimburse. I can see the logic of that, but it is aspirations of renaming the council tax benefit as the open to the criticism that the hon. Gentleman has council tax reduction is to encourage more people to advanced. I hope he will accept that I have framed my take it up, the consequences for local government are amendment in an extremely moderate way, in order to clear. Previously if councillors had gone out on a publicity make it clear that there should be a presumption that if drive to improve the take-up of what is currently known costs are increased through no fault of the authority as this benefit, central Government would have paid for involved—not as a result of a failure to collect the that. Furthermore, if more people take up the benefit—or money owed to it, but because of circumstances outside reduction—there is a cost in that that also fully falls on its control such as an increase in the number of unemployed local authorities. That is a perverse impact of the people in the area—it should be able to seek reimbursement. Government’s proposal. The amendments are silent on the obligation of the Secretary of State to meet such applications. Some Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): might say my proposals are rather too moderate, and Will the hon. Gentleman confirm my understanding that I should have shackled the Secretary of State, but I that in a rural coastal area such as the one I represent, hope Members on the Government Benches will realise which has a high number of elderly people and quite a that I have tried to frame a very moderate series of low take-up of this benefit, if there is a big increase in amendments that simply seeks to create a neutral starting take-up and there is protection for the elderly, the baseline and to avoid the draconian cuts that will otherwise impact on the council or on the other people entitled to be imposed on local authorities. the benefit would be rather large and profound? These are sensible amendments that should command the support of the Committee, and certainly of everyone Mr Betts: I could not have put it better myself; that is who understands, and sympathises with, the needs of precisely right—there will be a perverse incentive. If a local government. council gets the older people who are entitled to claim to do so in greater numbers, other council services will be cut, council tax might increase at some point or, if no 5.45 pm more money is spent on the scheme, the benefits of Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I support people who are not pensioners will be affected. That is the amendments of my right hon. Friend the Member precisely the point. for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), and I The problem is not with the Government’s attempt to also agree with what he said. Amendment 85 stands in rebadge the scheme or to localise it, but with the 10% my name and seeks to achieve similar ends to my right reduction at the beginning, all in one go, and the way in hon. Friend’s amendment 79 and consequent amendments. which the Government have framed the restrictions on My amendment seeks to localise council tax on the the extent to which local authorities can implement the 721 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 722

[Mr Betts] who are already on low incomes—that is why they are claiming benefits in the first place. That will be on top reduction. Local authorities can always find extra money of any other benefit losses from any other benefit to increase the cost of the scheme, but is the Minister reductions the Government intend. Have the Government really suggesting that it will be possible for any local analysed whether that £320 figure is right? Do they authority in the current circumstances to find extra contest it? resources at a time when services all round are being cut Mr Mike Hancock: The information from the LGA is for reasons we all know about? very helpful, but it is an average. In some areas, the cut The 10% restriction or cut in the available Government will be far worse than £6 a week because the number of funding comes in from day one in 2013. Pensioners are pensioners and others who are protected will be greater. going to be protected, and no one in the Opposition is In some local authority areas in my constituency, people going to argue about protecting pensioners because we could lose upwards of £10 a week. want to increase the number of pensioners taking up their entitlements, but that obviously means that the Mr Betts: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—the 10% reduction will fall on other people who claim the figure of £320 a year or £6 a week is an average, and reduction. That is self-evident. I asked the Minister there will be people who lose significantly more than about this yesterday, because the Local Government that. Have the Government done any calculations to Association has kindly put forward the information show whether the LGA figure is right or wrong? If it is that about half those claiming the benefit are pensioners, wrong, will they tell us what they believe the correct which means that half are not pensioners. So if pensioners figure to be? Have they done any analysis regarding the are protected, that means a reduction of about 20% for multiple withdrawal of benefits and situations when the other claimants, does it not? council tax benefit reductions that come as a result of this scheme are laid on top of any other benefit reductions Andrew Gwynne: My hon. Friend makes an excellent that hit the same families? Have they done any calculations point. Is it not worrying that if one section of society is of the total losses that such families may face? to be prioritised, another, very needy, section is to be My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth penalised, and does not that place councils in the very and Dearne (John Healey) was absolutely right the tough position of deciding who are the deserving poor other day when he said that local authorities are getting and who are not? a hospital pass here. They are getting a Government scheme with complications, in terms of the totality of Mr Betts: Absolutely. We are told that vulnerable the financial arrangements, of which most people will people—perhaps people on very low incomes with have no understanding. All that people will see is that children—are going to be protected, or have to be their council’s scheme will impose cuts in their benefits. protected, by councils under the scheme, but are they It will be councils that get the blame, and no doubt that going to be or not? Are the Government going to insist is where Ministers will firmly put the blame, but it will on that? We are not quite sure. We are told that local be grossly and totally unfair. authorities have to take account of the tapers under universal credit, but what does that mean? Are they Another problem is the time scales involved, as my obliged to respect completely the 65% taper element right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich within universal credit or not? If so, will that mean that (Mr Raynsford) has pointed out. Local authorities will a smaller and smaller number of people will have the not be able to work at this over a period of time. They totality of the cuts in benefits imposed on them? That is have just over 12 months in which to consult on a new the reality. Will the Government explain what they scheme, introduce it and explain it to people in their think is going to happen? area. There is also the issue of the technology that will come with it, and we know that the technology in new Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that one systems being brought in quickly has a habit of going problem that the Government seem to ignore is that a wrong. So not only will many people be faced with the lot of the people affected will not be on benefits but will abrupt introduction of these changes affecting their be in low-paid work and that this will be a disincentive income overnight, but there will be major failings in for them to work? service delivery as systems do not deliver on time and people end up without any benefit at all. Mr Betts: Of course it will, unless the Government are saying that those people should be exempt as well. Mr Graham Stuart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman To what extent will councils be obliged to take account for giving way again, as I have to leave the Chamber in a of the tapers in universal credit in the system they moment to meet the chairman of the Commission for devise? Will Ministers give a clear answer on that? If Rural Communities. People in rural areas earn on average councils have to take account of it, full stop, that will less than people in urban areas, pay £100 a head more in really throw the onus back on attacking benefits and on council tax and see urban areas getting 50% more in reductions for the unemployed. Is that the situation? Is central Government grant than rural areas. There is that what Ministers are trying to achieve? also a higher average age of population in rural areas, so the impact on the rural poor of further skewing The LGA has done some calculations to the best of could be particularly profound. Will the hon. Gentleman its knowledge and information. It says that because of comment on that? the exemptions for pensioners and others for whom the Government say local authorities cannot make reductions Mr Betts: I do not want to get into a debate about under the scheme, those who are left whose benefits whether people in rural areas or urban areas suffer can be reduced—the 1.3 million claimants out of the most. The reality is that people throughout the country 5 million who currently claim—will lose, on average, are likely to suffer and that it will be councils, whether £320 each a year. That is £6 a week being lost by people they are Conservative councils in rural areas or Labour 723 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 724 councils in metropolitan areas, that get the blame, but it John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): My will not be the fault of local councillors, whichever hon. Friend talks about the tight time scale and the party they represent. argument for the Government seriously considering Coming back to my point about speed, I say to the putting implementation back for a year. Does he accept Minister that this is an accident waiting to happen. that although it is a year today that councils have to Some of us have been through significant benefit changes have an approved scheme in place—otherwise they will before. When Sheffield outsourced its benefits have to use the present scheme—we do not yet know administration to Capita a few years ago there was when the Government will require schemes to be submitted complete chaos for 18 months. Some of us have experienced for approval, or how quickly they undertake to turn elderly people coming into our surgeries and breaking those decisions round, or the principles by which they down in tears because although they have always paid will require the schemes to operate and therefore be able their bills on time they have been unable to do so owing to get approval— to the fact that their benefit application had not been dealt with appropriately. That is what will happen in the The Temporary Chair (Mr Edward Leigh): Order. We rush that the Government are embarking on. Some are in danger of straying into the next group. Please councils will get it right but others’ systems will fail keep in order, Mr Betts. because of the speed at which this is being done. Mr Betts: My right hon. Friend is right to say that the Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con): Will time scale is incredibly tight and there are so many the hon. Gentleman amplify his comments about universal potential problems associated with the measure that credit, because I understood that with universal credit Ministers really ought to think them through. In the as someone went into work the taper arrangements end, the problems will be created not for councils, but were such that they would always be considerably better for people on low incomes who need benefits simply to off than they were on benefits? If that is the case and sustain themselves. They are the ones who will be damaged those taper arrangements are to be respected by councils, if this is got wrong. surely he is wrong to say that people who are just over Altering the responsibility for any future changes in the limit—those who are in work and on the lowest the number of people claiming council tax reductions is levels of income—will be worse off. a fundamental shift. Now, if more people claim the reductions, the Government pick up the bill; in future, 6pm councils will. The present arrangements, with the Government picking up the bill, make council tax revenue Mr Betts: I am sure the Minister is far better able very stable for local authorities. One of my criticisms of than I am to explain, because it was his consultation previous Lib Dem proposals to scrap council tax and and his response that I have been trying to read. I introduce local income tax was that it would make local understand that the council tax reduction scheme is councils’ revenue unstable, putting them at risk in times separate from universal credit. The Government do not of recession, as we had in 2008, and undermining their want withdrawal of council tax reduction as people get financial base if unemployment rises. That is a real into work to affect their income as they earn more to problem. the extent that it increases the tapers by 65% in total and therefore undermines the principle of universal Some of us went on a parliamentary trip to the credit. The Government intend the council tax reduction United States after the recession. We talked not to only scheme to have regard to that, so it is likely that it will local authorities, but to states whose budgets were cut not be possible for the changes to the scheme—the to shreds by the recession and the associated decline in worsening of the scheme—to affect people in work. their income tax and sales tax revenues. They became More of the change and reductions in the benefits unstable because they could not borrow for revenue, available will therefore hit non-working people of non- just as our local authorities cannot. The current compact pensionable age. That is the explanation of the between central and local government is that although Government’s position, I think, but it would be helpful local authorities cannot borrow for revenue, they know if Ministers set out their understanding. that their revenue will be stable. They set their council tax and they know they will receive the money—council Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): It was tax has a very low rate of non-collection. That is why I interesting to hear my hon. Friend mention Capita, understand the amendment tabled by Labour Front which was at the wrong end of the car crash of IT Benchers to compensate councils for changing revenue failings in Sheffield. Capita has stated publicly that it in-year. There is a real risk not only of longer-term has concerns about this proposal and the speed at which instability for councils, especially those in areas that it is being pushed forward. I am sure my hon. Friend start to experience economic decline because of the will reinforce those concerns in his questions to Ministers. collapse of a particular industry and more people therefore claiming reductions, but in the increased uncertainty for Mr Betts: Absolutely. Anyone involved in developing councils year on year. Councils will no longer have a new system, consulting on it, explaining it and getting certainty. If they do not know whether unemployment the technology right will have real concerns. I just hope will rise in their area and they do not know how that Ministers listen to local councils and the LGA and successful a campaign to persuade more people to take are prepared to say, even if they go ahead with this up the reduction scheme will be, councils cannot forecast flawed scheme, that they will at least delay it by another their revenue with the normal degree of accuracy. year, to allow time for further thought to be given to Ministers do not appear to understand that. Until producing a scheme that might deliver without the now, there has been a clear system in this country in problems that I have identified arising. which councils cannot borrow for revenue, but they can 725 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 726

[Mr Betts] that makes things much more difficult. Again, speaking from my experience of local government, it is sometimes be sure that revenue will come in so they do not have to in a position to deliver savings, given a chance, but as we borrow. They can set their budget for the year with a have heard in this debate, if there is pressure on council good degree of certainty. Ministers appear not to have tax and council tax benefits, something will have to give. tackled that issue at all. Local government in this country I therefore have concerns about the Government’s direction has been absolutely sound and stable throughout all the of travel, and I hope that the Minister can reassure us recent economic difficulties. The proposed scheme that they have thought about what would happen in an introduces an element of doubt at a time of great emergency. turbulence in local authority revenues, when grants are Clearly, if a local authority has to deal with a reduction being cut and there is great pressure on services. The and is given maximum flexibility to do so, sometimes it Government should think carefully before adding this can deal with it, but if it is initially told, “You must extra potential for loss of revenue—this extra risk—by protect pensioners,” the impact of the reductions may pursuing the scheme in such a short time scale. fall on a smaller number of people. We recently heard exchanges across the Chamber about universal credit; Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I do not support that credit may offset some of that, but that might mean amendment 79, but think it a useful vehicle for debate that the non-working faced the worst situations. The on an important subject. In my experience, local government issue needs careful thought. I am sure that the Government’s is good at adapting to change, provided that it is given timetable can be kept to, but we have to think very sufficient time to do so. I am sure that local authorities carefully; if lots of new schemes are invented following will be able to adapt to the Government’s timetable, but consultation, some people will get them right, some will there are many pressures in different areas. First, most get them wrong, and some will over-egg the savings, and authorities are cutting spending; secondly, they will that may well have an impact on our communities. have to grapple with the 10% reduction; and thirdly, the The Library briefing says that the reduction might Government have stated clearly that that should not partly be an incentive for local authorities to create affect pensioners. In an area such as Poole, with a heavy jobs, but I am not sure that local authorities can wave a preponderance of pensioners, the burden will fall on a magic wand and create jobs in six months, a year or two small minority of those claiming that benefit. Fourthly, years. Over a period of time, if authorities have active as most local authorities will have to freeze their council economic development departments, build capacity on tax, or will freeze it anyway, and have limited balances, industrial estates and try to attract firms, they might be they may well err on the side of trying to ensure that able to have some impact. However, from a practical they get their figures correct and that there is no cross- point of view, when it comes to dealing with the problems subsidy in terms of the benefit falling on the council tax that arise when the measures are implemented—and payer. A perverse incentive may arise to make larger perhaps in the year or two after that, in what we all reductions in support for the vulnerable than the figures know will be quite difficult economic circumstances—I necessarily entail, because authorities do not want to do not think that councils have the ability to change the take the risk. number of people in or out of work in their area. That The current system is predictable in the sense that it is is a long-term thing, not a short-term change that can running and the Department for Work and Pensions be made in months, so I have some concerns. can transfer money equally on a monthly basis. The Poole borough council, my authority, is having to direction of travel in localisation is fine and I am sure deal manfully with the need for a number of savings; that many local authorities can draw up good schemes, dealing with the measure, on top of that, will be difficult. but in year one the new arrangements will not be as I hope that we get the scheme right in Poole, but if we predictable. Some authorities will draw up schemes that do not, I hope that the Government have thought about turn out to be more generous than they thought, and how they will deal with the consequences. others will draw up schemes that are less generous than expected. Ministers have to consider what will happen when a scheme is got wrong, because as sure as eggs are Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab): It is a great eggs, there will be one authority that gets its figures pleasure to be under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. substantially wrong and has a problem. We have heard hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House express real concerns about how the scheme will work in practice, and particularly about what will happen Mr Kevan Jones: The problem for authorities such as in authorities with a large number of pensioners. Hon. mine in County Durham, where a large number of Friends have spoken about the need to start the scheme people receive council tax benefit, will perhaps be bigger on the right basis—a neutral basis—and to ensure that than for some of the smaller authorities, where there are councils are adequately funded for the scheme that they relatively few council tax benefit recipients. are being asked to bring in. I want to speak about new clause 11 in particular, Mr Syms: I am certain that the measure will have a which seeks to address some of the real financial risks different effect on different authorities. We need a little that are being transferred to local authorities. Many bit more clarity from Ministers: will there be emergency hon. Members will remember that last week we debated funds that can be drawn on if there is a difficulty in the clause 3, which changed the requirement to pay a grant short term? to a power to do so. In that debate, as in all our debates Of course, what makes it complicated is the fact that so far on the Bill, the Government refused to clarify the Government are looking for savings because of the how they would distribute money, fund local authorities overall economic situation. We have to make savings; and meet the costs of the duties that they seek to we are looking to make savings of £420 million, and impose on them. That is exactly what the Government 727 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 728 are trying to do with the localisation of council tax authorities will therefore have to increase their financial benefit. We are back to the old game of ensuring that reserves, and to do that, they will have to increase the the blame for their cuts is taken elsewhere. New clause cuts that they make to expenditure, and possibly to 11 attempts to ensure that local authorities are reimbursed services? for expenses incurred as part of the council tax reduction scheme. Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend has got it exactly The 10% cut in funding that many hon. Members right. In fact, throughout the passage of the Bill, we have referred to, along with protection for pensioners, have seen that much more instability will be built into which the Government rightly want to ensure, means the system, whether that is on business rates or council that others will face much larger cuts in their benefit. tax localisation. The inevitable consequence is local We will debate many of those issues under the next authorities building up bigger reserves, because no local group of amendments. authority finance officer would advise their authority to do anything else; it has to be prepared for the worst-case Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that that scenario. includes the 1.9 million people in receipt of council tax benefit who do not have passported benefits? John Healey: My hon. Friend is making the case very cogently that council treasurers will take a prudent Helen Jones: Yes, I agree, and we will consider those view; does she agree that that runs completely counter people as we proceed with discussions this evening. to the advice that councillors are getting from the That is the group most often forgotten about in these Secretary of State, who is talking about reserves being discussions, and the most at risk. “piggy banks”, and who says: “These untapped funds exist to ensure councils can respond to 6.15 pm unexpected situations like the pressing need to tackle the nation’s There is also a huge risk to local authorities; councils unprecedented level of debt”? will find themselves bearing all the risks of the scheme, That advice clearly runs contrary to the principles of because there is to be a move from annually managed good local government, and it simply will not and expenditure, whereby local authorities were reimbursed cannot be followed by councils. for correctly processed claims, to a grant—a grant, moreover, that has to come within the Government’s Helen Jones: My right hon. Friend is again absolutely expenditure totals. Any rise in benefit claims—any right. The Government are a little schizophrenic on unforeseen problems such as the closure of a major this, saying to local authorities, “Don’t build up big employer—will mean local councils bearing potentially reserves,” while at the same time building instability large costs, with no guarantee of reimbursement from into the system, which will require local authorities to the Government. build up bigger reserves. If the Government move to multi-year settlements—it seems from the response to the consultation that they Mr Mike Hancock: I agree entirely with the point want to do so—that financial risk will simply increase. made by the right hon. Member for Wentworth and According to their response to the consultation, the Dearne (John Healey). The real problem is that local Government believe that the problem can be tackled by authorities that cut their reserves will be penalised by billing and precepting authorities sharing risks, and their district auditor, who will say that cutting reserves that deficits can be tackled either by a general increase below a certain level is not stable local government. The in council tax, which, as many hon. Members have said, right hon. Gentleman is right to suggest that the is difficult in the current circumstances, or by allowing Government cannot have it both ways. This is putting billing authorities to vary the amount of precept paid pressure where it is simply not needed. to precepting authorities to “reflect any fluctuations in collection rates”, Helen Jones: That is a very fair point. The problem is as the Government put it. In other words, that transfers that instability is being built into the system. My hon. part of the financial risk not back to Government, but Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) to another authority, thereby creating further instability said that one of the things about local government in that authority’s system, and the result is likely to be finance in this country is that it has always been relatively cuts. stable and did not have those risks— Although the Government have said that they will assess the transitional costs of the scheme—whether Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con) indicated dissent. authorities will be reimbursed for all those costs remains to be seen, because there is not a great track record on Helen Jones: It is no good the Parliamentary Private this—that does nothing to tackle the inherent financial Secretary chuntering away—it will have no effect. I risks, and the built-in disincentive to encourage people spent years dealing with stroppy 15-year-olds on wet to make claims. In the past, many local authorities have Friday afternoons, and he is no different. done excellent work encouraging people to claim the benefits to which they are entitled. I am sure that many Let us really look at this. If the Government are of them will still do so, but now, if a council encourages serious when they say, as the Housing Minister did more people to claim, it will have to bear the costs, and when he spoke to the Communities and Local Government that is a ridiculous system. Committee, that councils should not avoid paying those who really need it, then they have to be prepared to John Healey: My hon. Friend is making the clear and meet the unforeseen costs. Why should a person living strong case that the new scheme will increase the financial in a particular authority be penalised simply because a risks to local authorities. Does she accept that local major employer in the area closes down or more pensioners 729 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 730

[Helen Jones] budget cannot cope with sudden surges in demand. In fact, the Government admit that in their own impact claim? My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South assessment, which states: East said that it is estimated that only between 57% and “If demographic changes or economic circumstances mean 66% of pensioners claim because council tax benefit is that eligibility for council tax support increases significantly then classed as a benefit. All those who are experienced in the consequence of switching”— this area say that, once it is seen simply as a reduction in from annually managed expenditure to departmental the bill, claims from pensioners are likely to rise. That is expenditure limits— a good thing, but the costs have to be met, and it is “will be that authorities bear more of the risk of a shortfall in unreasonable that entitlement for other people should funds.” depend on how many pensioners live in their area. They The risk of a shortfall or serious economic turbulence will be penalised because of an increase in council tax, destabilising a local authority’s finances and, what is cuts in other services or cuts in benefit to working-age more, the poorest people in the area having to pay the people when the scheme is later revised. It makes no price is not something that any Opposition Member, or logical sense. I suspect a few Government Members, can accept. We have tabled new clause 11 because we believe that it George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): Purely for would deal with the problem, and it might be helpful if I the purposes of investigation, does the hon. Lady have let you know, Mr Crausby, that we will seek to divide any figures—I understand that there will be a wide the Committee on that when the time comes. variety across councils—for the percentage of spending power that is represented by the 10% cut? Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Helen Jones: I could give such figures to the hon. Mr Crausby. Gentleman, but I am afraid that I do not have them at On the first stream, we are focusing on the 10% cut, the moment, and they vary greatly from council to which leads to all the other problems identified in council. He raises an important issue. Local authorities subsequent streams. I accept that in addition to the 10% that have many council tax benefit claimants will see a cut there are unexpected changes in the number of bigger cut in their spending power, and that is part of claimants and that apparently there is no cushion for the problem. that situation. Although I do not support the amendments that have been put forward, it is important to flag up the Mr Kevan Jones: Although £55.1 million a year is problems, which must not be ignored. paid out in council tax benefit in County Durham, less Let us consider the situation for a council faced with than £3 million is paid out in Hart district council in setting up a new system. Any savings it will be able to Hampshire. make through localisation of council tax benefit will need to be offset against the administrative costs it will incur. Helen Jones: That makes the point very well. I accept that there must be some savings, because otherwise there would not be the same need for external audit George Hollingbery: Does the hon. Lady agree that when money is sent to the council to cover payments, the spending power of each of those councils is incredibly but will the Minister state explicitly where the money different and that the percentage change in their spending will come from for the inevitably large cost of setting up power represented by a 10% cut in the council tax bill, individual schemes, particularly in the first year. There despite the varying levels of council tax bills, might be is of course the possibility that councils will work roughly similar? We do not know. together, which would reduce the administrative costs of setting up new schemes, but they would then lose the Helen Jones: I do not think that is correct. We will advantage of localisation, because even an adjoining debate that with the next group of amendments, but I local authority will have a different demographic make-up. will make a little progress now. As soon as we focus on the 10% cut, we think about the The point of a national scheme is that risk is spread. demographic make-up. If we move to a localised scheme, we must have some I share some of the concerns that have been raised way of dealing with risk, but there is no way of doing across the House. Once we ring-fence pensioners—we that in this scheme. The Government cannot seriously probably all agree that they should be protected—we argue that the closure of a major employer, for example, effectively put a gearing effect on everyone else. By the is a council’s responsibility. I know that, according to time we have picked out families with a disabled member the Government’s “not me, guv” approach, nothing is and other vulnerable groups, the reduction in council their responsibility, but even they must accept that they tax benefit, which might have started as an average of are responsible for the national economy, not Warrington £2 a week, will start escalating on the backs of just a few borough council, Nottingham, Carlisle or anywhere people to £6, then £10, all depending on the make-up of else. If a major employer closes, the local authority the local authority area. must have some way of dealing with it. Our new clause would ensure that the Government’s Mr Raynsford: I am finding it a little difficult to power to pay a grant is used to meet any shortfall if a reconcile most of the hon. Lady’s speech and, in particular, scheme costs more in benefit than the Government had her point about the impact of the 10% cut, which she originally agreed to pay to a local authority. Ministers clearly sees as damaging, with her earlier statement that ought not to be too concerned about this, because after she cannot support the proposed changes. Amendment 79 all they have to approve the schemes, and they are not would quite simply allow the scheme to start on a being asked to make an open-ended commitment. They revenue-neutral basis without the 10% cut, so what approve the scheme and how it works, but a cash-limited objection can she possibly have to it? 731 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 732

6.30 pm talking about working across, horizontally and vertically. It is not clear from the Bill how a district council will Annette Brooke: At this point in time, it is easy to put cope with the issue such amendments forward, but one has to identify where the money is going to come from, and I shall The string of amendments under discussion is about touch on that in a moment, because there are two sides funding, and the concern all comes from the 10% cut. to the issue: first, what needs to be addressed, but, There are potential extra revenue streams, however, and secondly, how we finance it. That is quite important. they need to be addressed. I appreciate that point, given Returning to the point I was making, I wish to the modifications to the second homes and empty homes emphasise that we all have constituents who come to us premiums, but it is unlikely that we will get an absolute with a breakdown of their weekly expenditure, and we match between the money that is lost and any money all know how little there is to spare in some of those that might be gained, so we need to look at that aspect. budgets, so the possibility of losing £6 to £10 of benefit is truly frightening. Helen Jones: Does the hon. Lady accept, however, that the second homes premium and, even, the empty Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Lady talks about constituents homes premium do not apply in many local authorities? going to her surgery. When they start going in 2013, There are very few second homes in Warrington, so after their benefits have been reduced, will she tell them there will be no extra revenue going to the local authority not just that she voted in support of the measure, but from that premium. that it was brought in only because the Liberal Democrats supported the Secretary of State? Annette Brooke: The very point I was making is that there are variations throughout the whole country, so Annette Brooke: At this stage, we are debating, and I there needs to be some sort of stabilisation, contingency, hope all trying to be constructive about, the direction in transition—whatever we want to call it—because of the which we would like the Bill to go, and it is important to differences throughout the country and the possibility be constructive, rather than to look for an immediate that the measure in the Bill will hit some very vulnerable political hit. people very hard. I make a plea to the Minister, even if Returning to the point I was making— he cannot give me the answers that I might want to hear today, to go away and look at all those issues, which Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab) rose— have been raised on both sides of the House.

Annette Brooke: I have given way several times, and I Mr Kevan Jones: It is a pleasure to serve under your shall proceed in order to retain the flow of my speech. chairmanship, Mr Crausby. There are concerns, and it is right that we discuss how What we have seen from the hon. Member for Mid we address them. Dorset and North Poole is a classic Liberal Democrat A further concern is how the burden of the proposal tactic: sit on the fence, give an impression—obviously is to be shared between the billing authority and any with a leaflet out this weekend—of how she opposes other authority that might be involved, such as a district and spoke against the proposal, and then go along and or county council. I give the example of East Dorset vote with the Government. I remind her, however, that district council, which last year had a revenue support if she and her Liberal Democrat colleagues choose to grant of just £29 per head, meaning that it has very little vote against the Bill, this Government will not get it flexibility with which to pick up any extra costs. So this through. Although she raises articulately the issues that is a matter not only of working with other councils, but will affect her local council, she cannot get away from of coming up with a clear solution to the issue. the fact that, when these draconian proposals come in I share the concern about whether the scheme can be and affect many councils, including her own, there will introduced within the proposed time frame, which looks only be one person whom they have to blame, and that tight. The major software companies say that it cannot will be her for voting for them. be done, but we know the timetable we are on: July for I hope that, come the general election, people reflect the Bill, October for the regulations and then the on that point, because this is not about the Conservatives consultation on schemes. Can it be done? I want Ministers doing nasty things to Dorset, but about the Conservatives to address those questions and to give more thought to and Liberal Democrats doing nasty things to local how the issue is going to be handled. government, and the hon. Lady is taking part in it. I am sorry, but I am not prepared to see her shed crocodile Mr Syms: There also needs to be consultation between tears for the proposals and then troop through the local authorities. The hon. Lady represents two or three Division Lobby. If she believed in what she was saying, districts, and we in Dorset know that somebody can she would vote against the measures and stand up for move from a home in Poole to one in Bournemouth or local government, a sector that I understand she comes in east Dorset, but, if there are totally different housing from herself. benefit and council tax schemes in those areas, that too It was said last week that what local government could have a perverse effect, so local authorities next requires is stability, and it does, but this is another door to each other will have to talk as well. example—we had one last week with the localisation of the business rate—of massive instability being introduced Annette Brooke: Yes, indeed. Such local authorities to local government. My hon. Friend the Member for will need to talk to one another, and it will be difficult Sheffield South East said that there was nothing wrong to get the right balance between a truly local scheme in principle with devolving council tax benefits to local and work with adjoining authorities—I suppose I am councils, and I totally agree, but if it is brought in with 733 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 734

[Mr Kevan Jones] not happy with the scheme or a council does not implement it by 31 January 2013, he has the power, by order, to a 10% cut, as the Bill proposes, and on the current time implement it. It is not clear whether he will intervene in scale, it will have a massive effect on many local councils that way if he is not happy with how a council implements and individual recipients of council tax benefit. the scheme. The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole is Mr Mike Hancock: I do not agree with the benefits correct that the problem with the scheme is that it being devolved to local authorities, so what does the comes with the 10% cut. It is important to look at the hon. Gentleman, who is arguing against localising the people who are in receipt of council tax benefit. The benefits under discussion, see as the real benefit of myth peddled in the media and by the Conservative doing so? party is that they are largely people on benefits. The statistics to September 2011 show that 5.9 million people Mr Jones: I would have no problem with a national are in receipt of council tax benefit in Great Britain. Of scheme that was administered locally. The current system those people, 2.2 million are pensioners, who will not be with the DWP is cumbersome, but I agree with the hon. affected by the scheme. Of the people who will be Gentleman, because the Bill is going to create an absolute affected, 1.9 million or 33% are in receipt of standard technicolour dreamcoat of schemes throughout the country, non-passported benefits—that is, they are not claiming including some next door to one another, as we have benefits—and the remaining 3.9 million or 67% are on just heard, in Poole, where two local authorities could various benefits. Of the people on benefits, 1.3 million have two completely different schemes because of their receive income support, 600,000 receive jobseeker’s local circumstances. allowance, 300,000 receive employment and support However, this is a cleverly construed proposal, and allowance, and 1.7 million receive pension credit. A we have to keep exposing what the Secretary of State is large number of people, through no fault of their own, up to, because he talks about the devolution of decision will see their incomes squeezed. making, which is what the measure is, but it is the devolution of decision making—with blame. He is 6.45 pm instigating a cut of 10% in council tax benefits and Once the 10% is cut and the pensioners are taken out, saying to local councils, “Right, you decide how it will if the number of recipients in an area grows through actually be administered.” Then, when they take those unemployment, for example, the local council will have tough decisions, he will stand back and say, “It’s not my two choices: it could cut benefits further, which is what fault, it’s the local council’s fault.” I remind Government some will do, or it could raise council tax to plug the Members that that will include Liberal Democrat and gap. As we saw last week, the problem is that the ability Conservative councils. They will have to make tough of councils to raise council tax differs. In north-east decisions. The Secretary of State is prepared to hide England, where 50% of properties are in band A, the behind those councils. I accept that he has written off option for councils to raise council tax is limited, compared most Liberal Democrats and does not care about them, with Surrey, where the figure is 2%. but the effect will also be felt by local Conservatives. Will the scheme disproportionately affect councils Amendment 79 is actually quite modest. It states that with a large number of council tax benefit recipients? if we are going to introduce the new scheme, we should Yes it will. The 10% cut will lead to a lot of uncertainty start on a neutral basis. It asks for a level playing field over the next 12 months, because council treasurers do so that everybody knows where they are, with no 10% not know what income they will get. It will be difficult cut. We will talk later about time limits. The fact that to bring the scheme in within the time scale set by the this all has to be done by 31 January 2013 will scare Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for many local authority treasurers to death. They are Warrington North (Helen Jones) said, if there are large having to second-guess what contingency they will need numbers of job losses in certain areas, will the councils to bring the scheme in. be compensated? They will not be, under the proposed The Bill makes no assessment of the differences scheme. The burden will fall on deprived areas, causing between councils. Councils with a large number of them a double whammy. council tax benefit recipients, which are mainly in the When we discussed business rates last week, we talked north of England, will not only have the problem of about Alcan, a large employer in Northumberland that administering such large numbers of people, but will be employs 500 people. If we lost that one employer, most disproportionately affected. I will give some examples. of those people—most of whom live locally in County Durham has 63,494 council tax benefit claimants, Northumberland—would apply for council tax benefit. which is 15% of the population. That costs £55.1 million. That would add a burden to the council, which is In comparison, Hart in Hampshire has only 3,029 Liberal Democrat-controlled at the moment, but will council tax benefit claimants, which is 4.2% of the not be for much longer if the proposals are passed. population. That costs a mere 3% of expenditure. Likewise, The amendment is modest and asks only for a level the famous Wokingham, which we cited last week, has playing field at the start. Having seen previous Governments only 5,159 claimants, which is 3.9% of the population. mess around with local government finance, I warn the That makes up 5.3% of the council’s total expenditure. Minister that when things are done in haste, they always The 10% cut and the administrative nightmare of bringing come to be regretted. I think that the Government will it in will be a lot easier to manage for councils with a come to regret this proposal. When this mess happens, small number of council tax benefit recipients. we need to say from day one that it is the fault not of The Secretary of State talks about localism and devolving hard-working local councillors, but of the Minister, the matters to local councils, but if we read the Bill carefully, Government and the Conservative and Liberal Democrat we see that he has kept back powers for himself. If he is Members who voted for it. 735 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 736

George Hollingbery: Some persuasive points have Financial risk is crucial for any local authority when been made in the debate so far and I urge the Government it considers the future. Authorities are being asked to to take them on board. However, I also find the Minister take on the new risk without the flexibility to allow persuasive and I look forward to hearing what he has to them to discharge the responsibilities that they are say. taking on fairly, effectively or appropriately for their I wish to speak briefly about a funding issue that is area. Whether the 10% cut leads to pressure on councils’ not strictly related to the amendments. I hope that you funding, pressure for them to find cash from other will allow me to stray slightly off the selection list, sources or greater cuts for those who are not protected Mr Crausby, on the basis that we are unlikely to have a will depend on how the cut is distributed across local stand part debate. I wish to talk briefly about parish authorities, local decisions on the design of the scheme, councils. The hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North the make-up of the population within an authority’s Poole (Annette Brooke) talked about horizontal and area, the proportion of people who are protected by vertical integration, but I want to go downwards to central Government and the degree to which the move look at parish councils and where their funding comes from a council tax benefit to a council tax discount from. encourages take-up among people who are already entitled to support but do not claim it. At the moment, certainly in my constituency of Meon Central Government would not make this move if it Valley, several parish councils take in council tax—or affected themselves. As my hon. Friend the Member for rather in precept—pretty much the same as the district Warrington North said, they are transferring what is council. As far as I can see from the Bill and the currently annually managed expenditure—the current consultation on the Bill, there is no provision to pay any costs of the council tax benefit scheme are driven by of the grant for reducing council tax to parish councils. factors that are not under the control of councils—to There is mention of district councils, first-tier councils funding that is covered by the local government and precepting authorities such as fire authorities and departmental expenditure limit. That will put an unrealistic the police, but as far as I can see there are no arrangements and unfair funding noose around the neck of local to compensate councils at parish council level for moneys government, because the year one base level will involve they might forgo because people require council tax a 10% cut. My fear is that what could and should be a benefit. It seems to me that this issue needs to be dealt good move for local government and the people it with. serves—a locally designed council tax support scheme—is In my area, Bishop’s Waltham and Denmead parish damaged and discredited before it starts by the design councils would rely entirely on the beneficence and of the scheme. good nature of the city council to fund their activities if they were not directly grant-aided. I would love to hear Mr Mike Hancock: May I say how nice it is to see you the Minister’s thoughts. in the Chair, Mr Crausby? I wish to raise my concern about the fact that we are John Healey: It is a real pleasure to serve under your approaching 7 o’clock and will hardly get halfway down chairmanship, Mr Crausby. the selection list. The time available is totally inadequate. I rise to support the amendments and new clause in Goodness knows what the Government were thinking the names of my right hon. Friend the Member for about, giving us just three days in Committee. It is an Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) and my hon. absolute travesty. I only hope that they will give us at Friends the Members for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts) least one whole day, and possibly two, on Report to and for Warrington North (Helen Jones). The problem, allow debate on many of the matters that have not been which my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich discussed in Committee. and Woolwich hits on directly in his amendment 79, is If the House is to do justice to the Bill, we should at that council tax reduction schemes will be undermined least get a chance to discuss some of the very important from the start by the 10% funding cut and the constraints amendments that have been tabled. I see them not as that the Government are putting in place to compensate wrecking amendments but as helpful, creative amendments for the problem that it will create. that would show the Government the strength of feeling Throughout the part of the Bill dealing with council in the House. Legitimate concerns have been raised tax, we consistently see hallmarks of the scheme that from both sides of the House on this group of amendments run contrary to the Government’s declared aims. It alone, and if I were the Minister leading the Bill I would shows a lack of true localism and a transfer of considerable like to give the House more time to discuss them properly. financial risk from central Government to local government, If we are not careful, we will end up with a dog’s dinner, which promises to have a severe impact on support for which cannot be right or fair to local authorities. many current recipients of council tax benefit. The Bill The most important issue in this group of amendments also sets out an unrealistically and unfeasibly tight time is raised in new clause 11, with which I agree entirely. It scale. gets to the very essence of what the Committee has The Secretary of State is more sophisticated than the discussed on previous days. It is about the stability and image and manner that he often cultivates would suggest, sustainability of local government and its ability to stay but his politics on this matter are brutal and brutish. In clearly focused on its task. Support for new clause 11 is my view, the intention is simply to transfer to local essential to give local authorities a fair chance of authorities the financial risk of the increasing cost of implementing the scheme. support for council tax costs. The Government want to The Government have expressed no clear and positive get local authorities to take the blame for the cuts being view about what they can do to help local authorities. I imposed by central Government. ask Ministers what is wrong with new clause 11 if they 737 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 738

[Mr Mike Hancock] 7pm The proposal is nothing other than a disincentive. believe in fairness and in giving local authorities a How many of us would like to cope with losing £20 a proper opportunity to get the scheme right. Who will week out of the minimum wage? How many of us benefit if it is got wrong? No one, least of all the people would still believe that it was worth trying to continue who claim benefits. Most of the blame will fall on local to work? There is a disincentive, for which it is hard to authorities, and once again we are going down the well find an excuse. I cannot. I hope the Minister can because trodden path whereby the Government decide to disrobe I look to him to offer some wisdom about why people themselves of their responsibilities and pass them off to on a very low income, who will lose possibly as much as local government, but forget to put the resources in £20 a week, will not see the provision as specifically place to help things happen. targeted at hurting them. I thought that we were elected I do not suppose that at the end of this debate the to prevent that. Minister will dish out to Members a scheme that has already been concocted, so that they can take it back to Mr Syms: I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s their local authorities and say, “This is the scheme we passionate speech. Clearly, apart from potential costs want you to use. We’ve paid for it, we’ve got it in place, for software and computers, a scheme will have to be and all you’ve got to do is tweak it a little. It’s tried and drawn up and publicised. All the schemes will be different, tested, and we’re prepared to give it to you.” That is not which means that there will have to be a lot of publicity going to happen, is it? locally to ascertain what people are entitled to. We need some answers.

Mr Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman not Mr Hancock: I agree entirely. Some hon. Members understand that the Secretary of State is a highly political like me, have close-knit communities that are right next individual who knows exactly what he is doing? He to communities in other local authorities. People on one knows that he is going to save money by making this side of the road will have a different scheme from those change, and he will give constituents in Portsmouth and on the other side. It will be horrendously difficult to Durham the impression that it is nothing to do with explain why one scheme prevails in Fareham and another him but is down to the nasty councillors who are in Portsmouth. Indeed, the hon. Member for Meon making the tough decisions. Valley (George Hollingbery) will have great problems, given the different districts that his constituency abuts. I therefore ask Ministers to consider seriously coming Mr Hancock: The Secretary of State will be making a back on Report with something that shows they have grave error of judgment if he thinks he is going to get heard the cry from local authorities. It is heartfelt and away with that in Portsmouth, because I will be telling not just for effect. The Local Government Association people there loud and clear where the responsibility for has not done all that work to sustain its arguments the change lies. Above all, I am disappointed that a without a great deal of effort. Secretary of State who was groomed in politics in local authorities and who, having led one, has a fundamental In the spirit of trying to be constructive, I hope that if understanding of their problems is not being more we are to have a day—or even two—on Report, creative responsible towards something that I thought he cherished thinking in the Department will soften some of the and cared for. Like the hon. Gentleman, I am disappointed, provision’s effects. Otherwise, I shall vote against it not but I can assure him that people in Portsmouth will not only tonight but on Third Reading. have any illusions about where the blame lies. Mr George Howarth rose— Portsmouth is a local authority that is making reductions, and many hon. Members’ local authorities are in the same position. People are losing their jobs, and here we The Temporary Chair (Miss Anne McIntosh): I call are contemplating another burden that will be placed Gerald Howarth. on them with not even an indication of what it will cost to put in place. I know from bitter personal experience, Mr Howarth: George—not only a different party, but having led a local authority, how much money can be an entirely different politics, Miss McIntosh. lost when authorities get the wrong advice on a system. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Portsmouth Hampshire county council squandered literally tens of South (Mr Hancock). Both he and the hon. Member millions of pounds over a 20-year period on schemes for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke) that failed in one way or another, and I do not want that made a plea for constructive suggestions. I tried to to happen again. intervene on the hon. Lady’s contribution with a Where is the inspiration that we ought to be getting constructive suggestion, but I think she thought that I from the Minister about how we can resolve the problem was going to be disagreeable, and she refused to accept easily? Where is the offer to meet the House halfway on my intervention. this issue? Nowhere. That is disappointing. If there are Many hon. Members have mentioned the consequences to be localised benefit systems, I want us to find a way of protecting pensioners in the overall scheme, and I to get a scheme in place in good time, but in proper will not labour the point. It is important to say at the time. That cannot happen in the time scale before us. If outset that nobody on the Opposition Benches and, we are to have a change in the system, it must be seen to I am sure, elsewhere, disagrees with the principle that be fair and properly implementable. The scheme cannot pensioners should be protected. It is an important punish those who desperately try to get into work but principle, to which we all subscribe. The difficulty that areonlowpay. we are trying to address is not the Government’s decree 739 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 740 that pensioners should be protected but their failure to families. I fear that they, or young couples with families, deal with the consequences of that in the context of a in which the principal earner is on a low wage, will be 10% overall cut. most affected and put in an impossible position, unless Some contributions have referred to the impact. For the discretionary powers that the Bill describes are example, the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) wanted spelled out clearly so that the outcomes cannot be more information about how the proposal would work arbitrary.We deserve to know at least what the Government in practice. I would like to rely on a briefing that the are planning, and that should appear on the face of the special interest group of municipal authorities— Bill. Who are the classes of people? There are vague SIGOMA—has given me. It is a local government descriptions in schedule 4, but nothing is spelled out representative group, but of a particular set of local clearly. authorities. It concludes that, to protect pensioners’ I said I wanted to talk about Knowsley and the council tax credit, the rest of council tax payers nationally Liverpool city region. I am indebted to the director of will face a reduction of 17% rather than 10%. We are finance in Knowsley for the impartial briefing he has talking about averages, and we discussed the problem of given to me—it is a Labour authority, but he has averages earlier. The range means that, at the bottom provided advice on the basis of his financial experience end, the figure will be 13.4%, and at the high end, it will and qualifications. His view is that the 10% cut combined be 25.2%. Those who have concerns should take those with pensioner protection means that the benefit of figures into account. other claimants will have to be cut by 18%. If there is I will talk about Knowsley shortly. It is a Knowsley provision for others in a local scheme—they could be problem—there is a distinct flavour of Knowsley to singled out or ring-fenced—that 18% cut could increase it—but every hon. Member will be confronted with it if to as much as a 100%, because people could be excluded the scheme is implemented in its current form. altogether, as the hon. Member for Poole said.

Mr Kevan Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree Mr Kevan Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the scheme will disproportionately affect constituencies that those same people will also be affected by the such as his and mine in Durham, which not only have Welfare Reform Bill? For example, some will lose money many people in receipt of council tax benefit, but a under the under-occupancy rule in addition to their growing elderly population? losing their council tax reduction. Many such people are in work. Mr Howarth: Yes. There might occasionally be disputes about the scale, but every demographer recognises that Mr Howarth: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. If he people are living longer and that there are therefore bears with me, I will cover precisely that point shortly in many more elderly people in the system. the context of the Liverpool city region, but I am sure the same trend applies in his constituency. Mr Syms: The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point, but is it not more likely that, rather than having a cut of 15% or 17% across the board, the Mr Syms: Another question is whether we can numbers will be more limited, so some people will have differentiate council tax payers from non-council tax a cut of 100% because not as many will qualify? payers. What happens when there is a split household, in which one person is a pensioner and one is not? What happens when someone becomes a pensioner in-year? Mr Howarth: The hon. Gentleman is right. That There will be so many months when they are not a underscores the point that he and others made earlier: pensioner and so many when they are. That also needs to some extent, we are taking a leap in the dark. Several to be explained. hon. Members have said that one of the difficulties with local government finance is that, when you change it, the impact is unpredictable. I do not need to rehearse Mr Howarth: The hon. Gentleman, who is always fair the history of the poll tax to show that. The position and reasonable, makes a fair and reasonable point. I that we are considering is exactly the same in that it is hope that the Ministers, who represent the two parties unpredictable and volatile. in the coalition, will at least take notice of the concerns that have been expressed from the Government Back John Healey: The effect is uncertain, but it is possible Benches, even if they do not take notice of what Opposition to make some projections. In my authority of Members say. Rotherham—a member of the SIGOMA group—if the The Office for National Statistics estimates that pensioner pensioners are protected in the way in which the take-up of Knowsley council tax benefit could be as low Government clearly believe that they will be, everyone as 53%, but there could be a significant increase in else who is currently entitled to support, including take-up as a result of a localised scheme, which would many who work but get low wages, and therefore require place a disproportionate burden on other categories of and have a right to that support, will take a cut of not people. If a greater number of pensioners take up the 10% but 19.5%. scheme, which is perfectly possible, the 18% I mentioned could be still higher. Mr Howarth: My right hon. Friend makes a strong My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham point, which I hope to tackle shortly. (Mr Jones) has been patient, so I shall speak about the Currently, many people, especially young people, have effects of other measures. It is important that the changes to accept jobs, often well below the level of their are not taken entirely in isolation. We will talk about qualifications, on a minimum wage, at the same time as welfare reforms tomorrow, but a series of measures will having to forge an independent existence from their combine to hit some of the poorest in society. 741 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 742

[Mr George Howarth] poorest families. That is the only way in which we can ensure that there is fairness in the system, and that those When Labour was in government, I remember the who stand to lose the most are not the most penalised. Opposition hammering us by saying, “Well, the Institute I should tell Ministers, one of whom will respond to for Fiscal Studies says something different from what the debate shortly, that all the evidence from reputable the Government say.” If that is good for Conservatives sources suggests that the poorest people in our communities and Liberal Democrats when they are in opposition, it will suffer the most, and that child poverty will increase. is good for Labour Members. “The Impact of Austerity I am sure they do not want that to happen. My suggestion Measures on Households with Children”—an IFS report is therefore reasonable. I doubt they are briefed to published this month and produced on behalf of the accept it today, but I hope they will reflect on it. Family and Parenting Institute—found that the planned changes in the tax and benefit system, including those Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): We are in the to council tax benefit, will hit the incomes of families same position as we were in last week, in that we are with children the hardest. The IFS estimates that the discussing a measure to which most Members agree in measures will increase child poverty by 2014-15, with principle. Perhaps not all Members agreed on business the poorest families being around 10% worse off. rates, but we are discussing consequences. My understanding—we have been told—is that the Mr Kevan Jones: Will my hon. Friend give way? sums show that the measure balances itself out nationally, whether at £420 million or £500 million. Mr Howarth: I will give way in a minute. I just want Mr Kevan Jones: No it does not. to finish my point. The measure in the Bill combined with other measures will have a devastating effect on Mr Ward: Whether the hon. Gentleman believes it or some of the poorest families in our communities. not, that is what we are told. The real issue is the local ramifications—winners and losers area by area. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): This morning at the Select Committee on Education, I asked the Secretary Mr Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? of State for Education whether his Department had Mr Ward: Let me just get on. I want to develop my done an impact assessment of the benefit changes on thoughts if I may. children’s welfare and educational prospects. He said that as far as he was concerned, that had not been done Mr Jones: But that statement was wrong! but it should be done. Is that a good idea? Mr Ward: It does not really matter because we are talking about local ramifications—how the measure 7.15 pm affects each area and what each area will be required to Mr Howarth: My hon. Friend makes his point well do to make up for lost council tax benefit. with his experience of that Committee sitting. I absolutely The question is where the money will come from to agree with the sentiment behind his question. make up the gap, and there are a couple of answers. I want to return to what the hon. Member for Mid First, there are the new freedoms that will be extended Dorset and North Poole said on that point. She is to local authorities, and locally determined schemes will respected on both sides of the Committee for her long generate a lot of additional funding. Members have and distinguished record of campaigning on behalf of raised the issue of pensioners being protected, and that children. I hope she reflects on the fact that child will pass the burden on to other people. poverty is likely to increase because of the combined Mr Kevan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? effects of the Bill and the other measures that are currently trundling their way unevenly through the benefits Mr Ward: No. Just sit and listen. system. Liberal Democrats who have spoken in the debate, The Temporary Chair (Miss Anne McIntosh): Order. and the hon. Member for Poole, made sensible suggestions Will the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) to get around that problem. The problem, as many contain himself? Opposition Members and others have highlighted, is Mr Ward: I sincerely doubt it, but thank you, Miss that we are being asked to support a measure that McIntosh. contains massive uncertainty. If we get it wrong, some Members have noted that if pensioners are protected, of the poorest in our communities will suffer the most. the burden will have to be picked up by others, who may My intention in speaking to the amendments is to be on low incomes. [Interruption.] That is not necessarily support amendment 79, which is in the name of my the case, because we do not know what the new freedoms right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich will generate, and they may generate sufficient funds to (Mr Raynsford), amendment 85, which is in the name of make up the gap. my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East As a result of the proposals, Bradford faces a £4 million (Mr Betts), and new clause 11, which is in the name of loss in council tax. The figure for the funding that will my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North be generated from the new-found freedoms, if they are (Helen Jones), but I have a serious suggestion that I extended to new areas, is actually very substantial, and believe would command support on both sides of the it is not far off that £4 million figure. Committee. I suggest that the provisions should be delayed until they can be aligned with the universal Helen Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? credit system. At that point, a realistic estimate can be made of the impact of the combined changes on those Mr Ward: No. 743 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 744

However, that is not really the point. It does not Finally, the proposals are clearly Treasury driven. really matter whether those two figures equate. If they Most people here have at heart local government and do, it will be pure fluke and pure coincidence. If a local the local government system. That is why we have a authority can generate sufficient funding from the new generally positive response to localisation measures as freedoms to cover the loss in council tax, it will be sheer they affect local authorities, although we understand fluke, and a policy cannot be based on fluke. The that local government must make a contribution to certainty of loss will be there, without the certainty of tackling the deficit, as it has through the local government gain. The certainty of the Government withdrawing the settlement. However, instead of treating local authorities 10% will be there; the uncertainty of what can be as cash cows, why could we not have treated them as generated at this time is clear for all to see. partners in deficit reduction? Why could we not have In addition, the collection costs for the alternative gone go them and said, “We will keep the council tax, sources of funding for the exemptions on classes A, C and we intend to reduce council tax benefit over a and L could be enormous. We must take account of the period of time. In the first year, having given you that cost of the arrears and the cost of collecting those warning, we will extend new powers and freedoms to additional sources of funding. The Government’s position you to collect tax and remove some exemptions. You is, “Don’t worry. You may be losing council tax, but will yield the money that is generated from them to the your new-found freedoms will easily generate the funds Exchequer, so you will keep your council tax, and there required to balance that.” However, that is simply not will be no 10% cut, but it is on its way. In the meantime, guaranteed authority by authority, and it is based on you should generate additional funds from the new sources of funds that it will be difficult to collect in freedoms you will be given and yield those funds to the some cases. There are huge differences when it comes to Exchequer in the first year. You will then be weaned off residents telling their council, “I’ve got an empty property. that over a period of time.” In the spirit of the business Give me a discount” and residents saying, “I’ve got a rates, why do we not do that, with some reward to those second home. Please tax me.” authorities that take up the challenge of extending the council tax base by generating money from new sources? Mr Kevan Jones: There are a lot of second homes in There was a different way to tackle this issue. Bradford. Mr Kevan Jones: Vote against it. Mr Ward: There are, actually, several hundred second homes in Bradford. Mr Ward: I am going to. Unlike the hon. Gentleman, If authorities cannot generate funding from the new- I am not a party lackey. Sometimes, we have to vote the found freedoms, the other answer is for them to find it right way, not simply the way the party tells us. somewhere else in their budget. They have this wonderful freedom to find other areas where they can balance the books. The problem is that council tax is likely to be 7.30 pm high in areas of high need. Areas of high need will have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for high formula grant, and areas of high formula grant Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): will have suffered a large cut in the local government We have had a wide-ranging debate, and I shall do my settlement. All those things together mean that the risk, best to respond to the key arguments made, quite a few or the uncertainty people have talked about, is of which spilt over into subsequent groups of amendments, disproportionately likely to hit more deprived communities. if I may say so. If, as a result, I miss out some of the I think it was the hon. Member for Meon Valley points, I hope that hon. Members will return to them (George Hollingbery) who said that 10% is 10%. There later. I look forward to it. may be a lot more council tax in monetary terms in The amendments have one fundamental problem: Durham or Bradford than in Meon Valley, but 10% is they make it impossible to secure a reduction in Government 10%. However, that is not really the issue, because more expenditure on council tax support. Even the Opposition deprived, less affluent areas will be disproportionately have conceded that those savings must be made in order harmed, given that they have disproportionately more to tackle the deficit. Spending on council tax benefit has council tax recipients. That is not fair, but the issue of risen from £2 billion in 1997 to £4 billion, and it is fairness cannot be assessed until the thing has run its essential to bring that back under control. The savings course, and we have developed all the possible ways that from localisation are a vital contribution to deficit an authority may have of generating funds. reduction, and it is essential that we have a credible Of course, there is the issue of whether the software deficit reduction plan. I understand the points of view can be introduced, but there are also the unanswered expressed. It would be much easier to have this scheme questions. How will the future growth in claimant numbers without deficit reduction, but it is an unavoidable part affect the 90% base in terms of eligibility? Opposition of the scheme. Members talked about the low level of claims by certain groups, such as pensioners, where 65% of those who are Helen Jones: First, does the Minister accept that the eligible actually claim. What will the scheme do to increases in council tax benefit have been driven not by protect authorities from the growth in claimant numbers an increase in claims but by increases in council tax? as a result of increased take-up or deteriorating economic Secondly, will he explain why he believes that the burden circumstances? What is the situation with the administration of deficit reduction should fall on the poorest people? grant for council tax support? When will authorities know about that? Where is the evidence that has been Andrew Stunell: On the first point, I agree that it was collected about the relative difficulty of collecting some due to the fact that council tax doubled while Labour of the income from the new potential sources of income? was in government. On the second point, as I shall Where is the evidence that that will be done? demonstrate—I hope that this expands on the point 745 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 746

[Andrew Stunell] and to vary the amount of precept to be paid to the major precepting authorities in-year to rectify any shortfall that my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East in council tax receipts. That could help to protect billing (Mr Ward) made—the Bill not only deals with deficit authorities, which could include small district councils—my reduction but creates opportunities for local authorities hon. Friends mentioned that some district councils are to collect more council tax in other areas. I will come to indeed small organisations. that in a minute or two. Amendment 85 would require the Government to Taken overall, our reforms will give local authorities carry out a new burdens assessment on their allocation a stake in providing support for council tax, which they of grant, but the Government have already committed have not had before, and will strengthen the incentive to consult on their proposals for distributing the grant. for local authorities to support residents back into We must be clear that local authorities have to make employment, which in turn will reduce demand for choices, but they will be able to choose whether to pass support. Localisation gives local authorities significant on the reduction to council tax payers, to use the control over how that reduction in funding is achieved, flexibility over council tax, which my hon. Friend the and it enables councils to design schemes reflecting Member for Bradford East mentioned, or to manage local priorities. the reductions within their budgets. I want to pick up on a point made a couple of times To the best of my reckoning, 12 local authorities about whether the Secretary of State would approve come within the constituencies of Members who have schemes. The Secretary of State is not required to spoken in this debate, and 10 of those local authorities approve schemes, and local authorities do not have to are in a position whereby if they were to take advantage submit schemes for approval. The important points are of the new flexibilities over second homes and empty that the schemes should be transparent and that local homes, they would achieve an income increase exceeding authorities should be accountable to the law and local the 10% reduction in their council tax benefit grant. I areas but not to the Secretary of State. am not saying that it is right for local authorities simply Amendments 79, 80 and 85 would, in effect, guarantee to gobble up all that money, but I want to make the that there would be no reduction in funding to local point— authorities and leave authorities with no plan to reduce that funding. In the context of the wider deficit reduction Mr Raynsford: Will the Minister give way? programme, that is neither affordable nor sustainable. Andrew Stunell: In a moment. I realise that I failed to Mr George Howarth rose— give way to the right hon. Gentleman earlier. I will do so in a moment. Mr Raynsford rose— As the impact assessment makes clear, the reduction Andrew Stunell: I give way to the right hon. Member in the council tax benefit fund to local authorities in for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). England is in the order of £420 million. Furthermore, as is also set out clearly in the impact assessment, the Mr Howarth: The Minister just asserted that the total of both the discounts and the other arrangements Secretary of State does not have any locus in this recoverable from the local tax changes also equal about system. Will he explain, therefore, why paragraph 2(8) £420 million. My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford of schedule 4 reads: East is right that there is not an exact match between the increase and the decrease, but it remains the case “The Secretary of State may by regulations prescribe other requirements for schemes”? that three quarters of local authorities find themselves in a position whereby should they go down that route, What is that if not the power to intervene? they would have the funding. Andrew Stunell: It is a power to intervene but the It is also open to local authorities, however, to look Secretary of State does not propose to intervene on elsewhere and to put additional money into their council schemes. [HON.MEMBERS: “Why’s it in there then?] The tax reduction funding, and of course they can change Secretary of State always has reserve powers. Right the basis on which they allocate that funding. hon. and hon. Members have asked what is the system of checking, of feedback and of amendment to the Mr Raynsford: I thank the Minister for finally giving scheme, and that is always provided for in regulations. way. He previously said that the Secretary of State did That is the basis on which we are proceeding. not intend to use his powers to define schemes. That extraordinary claim was the reason I wanted to intervene. Several hon. Members rose— We will shortly come to a group of amendments dealing with the Secretary of State’s default powers and his Andrew Stunell: I want to make some progress. power to impose a scheme if a local authority does not It is essential that local authorities plan their schemes have one in place. Will the Minister tell us whether the carefully and take account of possible changes in demand, Secretary of State does not intend to use those powers as pointed out in the debate. As we have set out previously, either? If so, why on earth are they in the Bill? we believe that those in-year pressures that hon. Members have mentioned can be managed by enabling any deficit Andrew Stunell: Of course, it would be sensible to in the collection fund to be shared between billing and debate that matter when we come to the next group of major precepting authorities. Our scheme will do that. amendments, and I look forward to it. I want to make it We are taking powers in the Bill to allow billing authorities clear, however, that the Bill states that if a local authority to make arrangements with major precepting authorities has failed by 31 January next year to put in place a 747 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 748 scheme, by default the existing scheme will continue, transferred to local authorities, which will have to cope and that is what the Secretary of State has the power to with unexpected increases in cost without any Government ensure happens. support whatever; the possibility of an increased number Amendment 85 would require the Government to of claims, because, perfectly rightly, people who currently carry out the new burdens assessment, but we are do not claim the benefit may do so when it is no longer already committed to doing that. We must be clear that called a benefit and they can feel more comfortable local authorities do the job that they have been set. about making a claim. Who bears the cost? Not the They have the opportunities to raise money in alternative Government: once again, it is the local authority that ways and to devise a scheme that is suitable to their has to bear the cost. circumstances. As for the administrative cost, we have On top of that, we have the appalling timetable for already made it clear that we will be fully following the implementation. The Government have not got their new burdens doctrine that this Government have set regulations ready. They will not have them ready, we are out. The Government will therefore be working with told, until late summer; and yet local authorities will be local authorities to assess the net impact of housing expected to implement this—a whole new scheme, requiring benefit centralisation and the localisation of support new software, new application forms and new for council tax, including the transitional costs, which procedures—in a matter of months. All the experts are will be covered, where necessary, by the new burdens telling the Government that it will not work and that it doctrine. will be a catastrophe. Against all that advice, coming from authorities all over the country and here in the Mr Betts: The Minister talks about working with Chamber—virtually every Member who has spoken has local authorities. Presumably the Government have a expressed serious reservations and called on the Government view about that, despite what they say local authorities to think again, delay and allow time for this scheme to might be able to achieve by way of extra revenue generation. be got right—the Minister just tries to dismiss it. This He has already admitted that at least a quarter of is a lamentable performance, and I intend to press authorities cannot raise enough money to offset what amendment 79 to a vote, so that we can say that to the they have lost under the scheme that we are discussing. Government. Does he therefore accept that non-pensioners in those Question put, That the amendment be made. authorities—which are likely to be the poor authorities, The Committee divided: Ayes 233, Noes 291. with the highest percentage of people claiming council tax benefit—are going to suffer what the Local Government Division No. 446] [7.44 pm Association predicts will be cuts of around £6 a week? AYES Andrew Stunell: No, I absolutely do not accept that. Abbott, Ms Diane Campbell, Mr Ronnie The average reduction if local authorities do not put Abrahams, Debbie Caton, Martin any extra funding into the pot, from any source at all, is Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Chapman, Mrs Jenny Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Clark, Katy £2.64 per household per week. Every local authority—even Alexander, Heidi Clarke, rh Mr Tom those that do not have complete recompense of the one Ali, Rushanara Clwyd, rh Ann pot of money from the other—will still get significant Allen, Mr Graham Coaker, Vernon inputs from the discount scheme, which local authorities Ashworth, Jonathan Coffey, Ann can, if they choose, take into account. I therefore ask Austin, Ian Cooper, Rosie the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich Bailey, Mr Adrian Cooper, rh Yvette (Mr Raynsford) to withdraw his amendment, and I ask Bain, Mr William Corbyn, Jeremy my hon. Friends to vote against it if he does not. Balls, rh Ed Creagh, Mary Banks, Gordon Creasy, Stella Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cruddas, Jon Mr Raynsford: We have just heard an absolutely Beckett, rh Margaret Cryer, John lamentable performance from a Minister who is trying Begg, Dame Anne Cunningham, Alex to wash his hands of responsibility for an outrageous Bell, Sir Stuart Cunningham, Mr Jim scheme that has been designed in a way that reflects Benn, rh Hilary Cunningham, Tony very poorly indeed on the members of the parties that Benton, Mr Joe Curran, Margaret comprise the coalition. This is a crude scheme which is Betts, Mr Clive Dakin, Nic seriously cutting the benefits that, at the moment, go to Blackman-Woods, Roberta Danczuk, Simon literally millions of poorer people—some in work, some Blears, rh Hazel Darling, rh Mr Alistair over pension age, some not in work but under pension Blenkinsop, Tom David, Mr Wayne age. All those people—about 6 million nationally—are Blomfield, Paul Davidson, Mr Ian dependent on the existing scheme. The Government, in Blunkett, rh Mr David Davies, Geraint their wisdom, have suddenly imposed the idea that the Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Denham, rh Mr John scheme can be cut immediately, from year one, by 10%. Brennan, Kevin Dobbin, Jim They are then imposing further rules that involve a Brown, Lyn Dobson, rh Frank much larger cut on all those people who will not be Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Docherty, Thomas protected by the Government’s diktat. Brown, Mr Russell Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Bryant, Chris Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. The Minister tries to weasel away from all that by Buck, Ms Karen Donohoe, Mr Brian H. using the figure of £2.40 or so for the average loss. He Burden, Richard Doran, Mr Frank knows very well that, in proportion to the average claim Burnham, rh Andy Dowd, Jim that people receive at the moment, that means an average Byrne, rh Mr Liam Doyle, Gemma cut of 16.7% in benefits to poor people. On top of that, Campbell, Mr Alan Dromey, Jack there are the other appalling features: all the risk being Campbell, Mr Gregory Dugher, Michael 749 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 750

Durkan, Mark Mann, John Timms, rh Stephen Wilson, Phil Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Trickett, Jon Winnick, Mr David Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Turner, Karl Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Twigg, Derek Woodcock, John Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Vaz, rh Keith Wright, David Esterson, Bill McClymont, Gregg Walley, Joan Wright, Mr Iain Evans, Chris McCrea, Dr William Ward, Mr David Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Watson, Mr Tom Tellers for the Ayes: Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John Whitehead, Dr Alan Mr David Hamilton and Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Williamson, Chris Chris Ruane Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne NOES Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Adams, Nigel Davis, rh Mr David Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Afriyie, Adam de Bois, Nick Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Aldous, Peter Dinenage, Caroline Gardiner, Barry Meale, Sir Alan Alexander, rh Danny Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian Andrew, Stuart Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Glass, Pat Michael, rh Alun Bacon, Mr Richard Doyle-Price, Jackie Glindon, Mrs Mary Miliband, rh David Baker, Norman Drax, Richard Goggins, rh Paul Miller, Andrew Baker, Steve Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Goodman, Helen Mitchell, Austin Baldry, Tony Dunne, Mr Philip Greatrex, Tom Morden, Jessica Baldwin, Harriett Ellis, Michael Green, Kate Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Barclay, Stephen Elphicke, Charlie Greenwood, Lilian Morris, Grahame M. Barker, Gregory Eustice, George Griffith, Nia (Easington) Baron, Mr John Evans, Graham Gwynne, Andrew Mudie, Mr George Barwell, Gavin Evans, Jonathan Hamilton, Fabian Munn, Meg Bebb, Guto Evennett, Mr David Hancock, Mr Mike Murphy, rh Mr Jim Beith, rh Sir Alan Fabricant, Michael Hanson, rh Mr David Murphy, rh Paul Beresford, Sir Paul Farron, Tim Harris, Mr Tom Murray, Ian Berry, Jake Foster, rh Mr Don Havard, Mr Dai Nandy, Lisa Bingham, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Healey, rh John Nash, Pamela Binley, Mr Brian Freeman, George Hendrick, Mark O’Donnell, Fiona Birtwistle, Gordon Freer, Mike Hepburn, Mr Stephen Osborne, Sandra Blunt, Mr Crispin Fullbrook, Lorraine Heyes, David Owen, Albert Boles, Nick Fuller, Richard Hillier, Meg Pearce, Teresa Bone, Mr Peter Gale, Sir Roger Hilling, Julie Perkins, Toby Bradley, Karen Garnier, Mr Edward Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Qureshi, Yasmin Brady, Mr Graham Garnier, Mark Hoey, Kate Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Brake, rh Tom Gauke, Mr David Hopkins, Kelvin Reed, Mr Jamie Bray, Angie Gibb, Mr Nick Howarth, rh Mr George Reeves, Rachel Brazier, Mr Julian Gilbert, Stephen Hunt, Tristram Reynolds, Emma Bridgen, Andrew Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Irranca-Davies, Huw Reynolds, Jonathan Brine, Steve Glen, John Jackson, Glenda Riordan, Mrs Linda Brooke, Annette Goldsmith, Zac James, Mrs Siân C. Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bruce, Fiona Goodwill, Mr Robert Jamieson, Cathy Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bruce, rh Malcolm Graham, Richard Jarvis, Dan Rotheram, Steve Buckland, Mr Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Johnson, rh Alan Roy, Mr Frank Burns, rh Mr Simon Grayling, rh Chris Johnson, Diana Roy, Lindsay Burrowes, Mr David Green, Damian Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burt, Lorely Greening, rh Justine Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Byles, Dan Griffiths, Andrew Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Cairns, Alun Gummer, Ben Jones, Susan Elan Shannon, Jim Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gyimah, Mr Sam Jowell, rh Tessa Sharma, Mr Virendra Carmichael, Neil Halfon, Robert Joyce, Eric Sheerman, Mr Barry Carswell, Mr Douglas Hames, Duncan Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Cash, Mr William Hammond, rh Mr Philip Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Chishti, Rehman Hammond, Stephen Kendall, Liz Simpson, David Chope, Mr Christopher Hancock, Matthew Khan, rh Sadiq Skinner, Mr Dennis Clappison, Mr James Hands, Greg Lammy, rh Mr David Slaughter, Mr Andy Clark, rh Greg Harper, Mr Mark Lavery, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Harrington, Richard Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, Angela Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Harris, Rebecca Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hart, Simon Lloyd, Tony Spellar, rh Mr John Collins, Damian Harvey, Nick Love, Mr Andrew Straw, rh Mr Jack Cox, Mr Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Lucas, Caroline Stringer, Graham Crockart, Mike Heald, Oliver Lucas, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Crouch, Tracey Heath, Mr David MacShane, rh Mr Denis Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Davey, Mr Edward Heaton-Harris, Chris Mactaggart, Fiona Tami, Mark Davies, David T. C. Hemming, John Mahmood, Shabana Thomas, Mr Gareth (Monmouth) Henderson, Gordon Malhotra, Seema Thornberry, Emily Davies, Philip Hendry, Charles 751 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 752

Herbert, rh Nick Newton, Sarah Truss, Elizabeth Wiggin, Bill Hoban, Mr Mark Nokes, Caroline Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Hollingbery, George Nuttall, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williams, Roger Hollobone, Mr Philip O’Brien, Mr Stephen Uppal, Paul Williams, Stephen Hopkins, Kris Offord, Mr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh Williamson, Gavin Horwood, Martin Ollerenshaw, Eric Vickers, Martin Willott, Jenny Howell, John Opperman, Guy Walker, Mr Charles Wilson, Mr Rob Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard Walker, Mr Robin Wollaston, Dr Sarah Huhne, rh Chris Paice, rh Mr James Wallace, Mr Ben Wright, Jeremy Hunter, Mark Parish, Neil Walter, Mr Robert Wright, Simon Huppert, Dr Julian Patel, Priti Watkinson, Angela Yeo, Mr Tim Jackson, Mr Stewart Paterson, rh Mr Owen Weatherley, Mike Young, rh Sir George James, Margot Pawsey, Mark Webb, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Javid, Sajid Penning, Mike Wharton, James Johnson, Gareth Penrose, John Wheeler, Heather Tellers for the Noes: Johnson, Joseph Percy, Andrew White, Chris James Duddridge and Jones, Andrew Perry, Claire Whittaker, Craig Stephen Crabb Jones, Mr David Phillips, Stephen Jones, Mr Marcus Pincher, Christopher Question accordingly negatived. Kawczynski, Daniel Poulter, Dr Daniel Kelly, Chris Prisk, Mr Mark The Temporary Chair (Miss Anne McIntosh): In view Kirby, Simon Pritchard, Mark of the debate that we have just had, and the nature of Knight, rh Mr Greg Pugh, John the next two groups of amendments, I inform the Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Lamb, Norman Randall, rh Mr John Committee that I am unlikely to allow a separate debate Lancaster, Mark Reckless, Mark on clause 8 stand part. Latham, Pauline Rees-Mogg, Jacob Laws, rh Mr David Reevell, Simon Helen Jones: I beg to move amendment Leadsom, Andrea Reid, Mr Alan 66, page 5, line 6, at end insert— Lee, Jessica Robertson, Mr Laurence ‘(1A) In exercising its powers under section 1(b) the authority Lee, Dr Phillip Rogerson, Dan must have regard to the impact of the scheme on— Leech, Mr John Rosindell, Andrew (a) those persons in the area who are in employment or Lefroy, Jeremy Rudd, Amber actively seeking employment, and Leslie, Charlotte Ruffley, Mr David (b) the levels of poverty in the area, including the levels of Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Russell, Sir Bob child poverty.’. Lewis, Brandon Rutley, David Lewis, Dr Julian Sanders, Mr Adrian The Temporary Chair: With this it will be convenient Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sandys, Laura to discuss the following: Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Amendment 49, page 5, line 17, at end insert— Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Shapps, rh Grant ‘(4A) In exercising its powers under subsection (1)(b), each Loughton, Tim Sharma, Alok authority must have regard to the impact of its scheme on the Luff, Peter Shepherd, Mr Richard living standards of those persons in its area who, prior to the introduction of the scheme, were receiving council tax benefit. Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, Mr Keith (4B) In exercising its powers under subsection (1)(b), each May, rh Mrs Theresa Skidmore, Chris authority must have regard to the impact of its scheme on the Maynard, Paul Smith, Miss Chloe living standards of those persons in its area, below pensionable McCartney, Karl Smith, Henry age, who are in employment or are actively seeking McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Julian employment.’. McPartland, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Amendment 59, page 5, line 28, leave out ‘2013’ and McVey, Esther Soames, rh Nicholas insert ‘2014’. Mensch, Louise Soubry, Anna Amendment 60, page 5, line 29, leave out ‘2013’ and Menzies, Mark Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline insert ‘2014’. Mercer, Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew Amendment 67, in schedule 4, page 47, line 6, at end Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John insert ‘and set out the steps which the local authority Milton, Anne Stewart, Bob will take to ensure that— Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stewart, Iain (a) persons entitled to a reduction will be made aware of Mordaunt, Penny Stewart, Rory their entitlement, and Morgan, Nicky Streeter, Mr Gary (b) assistance is available to such persons who wish to Morris, Anne Marie Stride, Mel make an application.’. Morris, David Stuart, Mr Graham Amendment 56, in schedule 4, page 48, line 7, at end Morris, James Stunell, Andrew insert— Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian (e) require authorities to have regard to the impact of its Mowat, David Swales, Ian scheme on— Mulholland, Greg Swinson, Jo (i) the numbers of persons in its area expected to Mundell, rh David Syms, Mr Robert receive a greater or lesser reduction in council tax Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah than that which they had been entitled to receive Murray, Sheryll Thurso, John under council tax benefit, and the amounts by Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward which their entitlement are likely to increase or Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin reduce, Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David (ii) the living standards of such persons, 753 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 754

(iii) the financial incentive on persons below pensionable the measure simply transfers the financial risks to local age to seek or maintain employment.’. councils and hits the poorest people hardest, especially Amendment 68, in schedule 4, page 48, line 15, at end the working poor. What is frequently forgotten in this insert— debate, not least by the Government, is that many ‘including local charities, organisations providing advice on people receiving council tax benefit are in work. benefits and organisations representing older people.’. The Government say that they want to protect Amendment 54, in schedule 4, page 48, line 39, at end pensioners—and rightly so—but the consequence of insert— the decision, coupled with a 10% reduction in funding, means that those in local authorities with a high proportion (f) include estimates of the likely impact of its scheme on the living standards of those persons in its area who of pensioners will suffer more than those in an area have been receiving council tax benefit.’. with fewer pensioners. How can that system be fair? As Amendment 57, in schedule 4, page 48, line 44, leave we heard from my hon. Friends earlier, the reductions out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. for those of working age will range from 13.4% to 25.2%—a national average of almost 17%. Of course, Amendment 58, in schedule 4, page 49, line 5, leave that situation could get worse. The Government have out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’. said that they are minded—only minded—to base their Amendment 70, in schedule 4, page 49, line 13, at end funding on previous expenditure. As a result of that, insert— spending will no longer rise to meet changes in demand. ‘In considering the need for replacement or revision of the It is, in effect, a cash-limited system. If unemployment scheme the authority must have regard to the impact of any such rises and more people need to claim, and if more revision or replacement on the living standards of people in the pensioners claim—quite rightly under this system, as area including— we heard earlier—that must be paid for. (a) those of working age in employment and actively seeking work, Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that, (b) those in receipt of benefits including disability benefits, contrary to the impression given by the Minister in his and winding-up speech on the previous group of (c) persons of pensionable age.’. amendments—that use of the flexibility on second homes, and growing the economy, could make up the difference— Amendment 71, in schedule 4, page 50, line 23, at end the only option available to most councils is to raise insert— council tax and that councils with a high proportion of ‘Before issuing such guidance the Secretary of State must have band A properties will be at a severe disadvantage when regard to the impact on— it comes to the amount of money they will be able to (a) those of working age in employment and actively raise? seeking work, (b) those in receipt of benefits including disability benefits, Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is, of course, right. In and trying to remedy the problem, the most disadvantaged (c) persons of pensionable age.’. councils will be those with the lowest tax bases. That has been true throughout all our discussions on the Bill. Helen Jones: This group of amendments deals with If demand goes up, councils will be faced under this the impact of the proposed changes in council tax scheme with either bearing the extra cost or, more likely, benefit on some of the poorest people in the country. redesigning their schemes to restrict the number of One of the keys to this issue is something that we those eligible. The Chartered Institute of Housing said started to debate when discussing the previous group it very clearly: council tax benefit awards will be of amendments—the fact that people in the same “squeezed precisely at the point at which there is the circumstances will no longer receive the same type of most need for help amongst low income households.” benefit. Entitlement will depend on where a person lives London Councils estimated that if this scheme had and on the population of that area. That is a major been in place earlier, a shortfall of £400 million would change to the way that we treat people in this country. have been faced in the five years to 2009-10. The circumstances of someone who lives in Birmingham The Government say that councils can do something could be exactly the same as those of someone living in about this. The Minister for Housing and Local Bradford, but their benefit could now be different. Government says in what I have to say reads like a Someone who lives in Chichester could be treated differently rather garbled piece of evidence to the Select Committee from someone who lives in Carlisle. that considering whether to pass on the 10% reduction to claimants or to find the money elsewhere was “old-school 8pm thinking”—or what the rest of us might call “doing The basic unfairness is staggering, especially when your sums”. I am sure that councils facing these cuts combined with a 10% cut in the funding available to will have been relieved to hear that they could reduce local authorities. As we heard in respect of the previous the bill group of amendments, there has been a switch from “not by unfairly not paying people who are vulnerable and need annually managed expenditure, whereby local councils it”, were reimbursed for correctly processed claims, to grants which seems to me to be the precise effect of this that will have to come within the departmental expenditure scheme; no, he said, councils should be ensuring that limits. The impact is clear: far from achieving the there is Government’s stated grand aim in the consultation—to “a definite interest in starting up that new industrial estate, “give councils increased financial autonomy and a greater stake business park and getting economic activity going so there are in the economic future of their area”— jobs.” 755 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 756

Let me say this slowly, so that Ministers can understand and sadly, ironic that, while claiming that they are it. If a firm closes down or lays off staff, a new business enabling councils to freeze tax, the Government are park does not open up the next day. People are out of increasing it for the poorest members of our communities. work; they claim benefit; and if there is not enough money to pay that benefit, councils either have to cut Helen Jones: I could not have put it better myself. An what is available or find the money somewhere else from especially ridiculous aspect of the proposals is that the budgets already facing massive cuts. It is staggering to extent to which a council is hit will depend largely on hear a Government who have presided over a rise in the number of pensioners who live in the area. It is unemployment to 2.6 million and who have seen the essentially a matter of chance. Moreover, if people on economy flatline lecturing local councils about the need passported benefits are protected, it is possible that to open business parks. Only the Minister for Housing those in work will face a cut of up to 40%, which would and Local Government, whose overwhelming self- wipe out any gains from the raising of personal allowances. confidence is matched only by the staggering depths of The Government have absolutely no right to boast his ignorance, could come out with such nonsense. about a tax cut when they give with one hand and take It is not surprising that the Select Committee was with the other. unimpressed, saying: We are attempting to ensure that at least the needs of “We have seen little evidence to support the hope that the new those of working age are not forgotten when councils and better-paying jobs for individuals, immediately sufficient to draw up the scheme. I fully accept that Labour councils offset the 10% reduction in the benefit budget will inevitably will try to do that anyway, although they have been follow from these incentives.” hamstrung by the Government, but I do not believe that It continued to stress what we have talked about throughout Government Members have demonstrated during our this Committee stage—that debates on the Bill that they understand how much “the means of economic growth are never solely in the gift of these sums mean to the very poorest people. If I may individual local authorities.” use the Prime Minister’s words, they do not get it. They It is, of course, precisely the authorities that have already do not understand what it is like to run out of money borne the brunt of the Government’s cuts that will find before the next wage packet or benefit payment. They themselves in most difficulty with this council tax scheme. do not understand what it is like to have to choose between paying a bill and buying the children a new The New Policy Institute estimated that five out of pair of shoes. the 10 hardest-hit local authorities are among the top 10 most deprived areas in the country: Hackney, Newham, Mr Kevan Jones: Did the Minister not make it clear Liverpool, Islington and Knowsley. In the Liverpool earlier that he “did not get it” when he dismissed a 16% city region, for example, the current proposals would decrease in council tax benefit as though it were loose result in cuts of between 17% and 23% for people of change? working age—those who are not pensioners. Let me give one example. A single person in Halton in a band Helen Jones: My hon. Friend has hit the nail on the A property would have to find £179.92 a year extra. In head. The problem is a lack of understanding of the Sefton, which has a higher than average number of fact that trying to find even an extra couple of pounds a pensioners, a minimum reduction of 23% will be required week is simply impossible for those on such tight budgets. for people of working age. A couple living in a band A property would have to find an extra £226.72 a year. This ill-thought-out scheme, which even Government Members agree is being rushed through, is full of holes. Those might not seem large sums to Government First, the Government have failed to align it with their Members, but to people who have to count every penny, much-hyped universal credit. Most of us would assume who sometimes run out of money before the end of the that a universal credit would be—well—universal, but week, they are simply impossible to find. That is why we that is not the case in this instance. Council tax benefit have tabled these amendments—to ensure that the needs is to be split from universal credit: there will be one of people of working age and those in poverty are taken national scheme, another local scheme, two sets of into account. Where is this extra money going to come administrative costs, and a huge scope for anomalies. from? Do Government Members believe that it can be Secondly, the Government are introducing a 10% cut somehow magicked out of thin air? This does not even while protecting pensioners. Thirdly, they want schemes provide incentives to work, even if there were jobs to go that will not create work disincentives. to. The Government are not clear about the vulnerable In a parliamentary answer to my right hon. Friend households that should be protected. They have made it the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on 17 clear that they want to protect pensioners, but they are June, the Under-Secretary of State for Communities singularly unclear about other vulnerable groups. If, as and Local Government, the hon. Member for Bromley is likely, local authorities will have to protect those on and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) said: employment and support allowance, jobseeker’s allowance and income support, there will have to be an even bigger “The Government intend that the general principles of supporting cut for the unprotected group—overwhelmingly the work incentives will be set out in guidance” working poor. We have a Government who claim that —guidance that the Secretary of State will provide, they are freezing council tax, but they are actually although the Minister tells us that he did not want to increasing it for those least able to pay. interfere in the schemes— “which will help local authorities to design support.”—[Official Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Some people Report, 17 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 629W.] who pay no council tax at present may find themselves How on earth can that work? Families will face two paying it for the first time, while others who pay some at means tests, one for universal credit and one for council present may find themselves paying more. It is hugely, tax benefit, along with one set of national rules and 757 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 758

[Helen Jones] “multi-year allocations would provide greater certainty and better allow local authorities to benefit financially where demand for goodness knows how many local rules. There will be support was reduced over several years.” one taper for universal credit; if councils fix a different I think my hon. Friends will see immediately where that taper for council tax, how can there be an integrated is going, because we have seen it before. I am talking benefits system? If the taper is fixed at the same rate, about the creation of incentives for councils to reduce when will it be calculated, before or after the calculation claims. In a time of economic uncertainty, and when the for universal credit? It simply will not work, and the economy is flatlining, we cannot reduce those claims by people who will pay the price are the most vulnerable bringing in lots of jobs, because the jobs are simply not members of society: people who have lost their jobs, there for people to get. Not only will local authorities and families who are trying to do the right thing by that are experiencing increasing unemployment or falling going out to work for poverty wages. They will find wages leading to new claims be penalised, but the themselves in an absolute mire. Government are already considering how to build in incentives to reduce claims. There will clearly be pressures on local authorities. 8.15 pm They will take all the financial risks associated with the Mr Jones: As was pointed out earlier, different councils possibility of demand exceeding supply, and they will may operate myriad different schemes. Would that not also have to deal with the extra costs of setting up the make people’s search for work more difficult? In central scheme—which may or may not be fully reimbursed—as London, for example, some schemes might be advantageous well as the costs of revising it regularly, of notifying while others would make it hard for people to move people about it and of appeals. That final subject has around to find work. hardly been mentioned so far in our debate, but appeals could well be considerable when people find that their Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right; indeed, entitlement is being cut. If we add in the Government’s Government Members expressed similar reservations desire to move to multi-year settlements, we can all see during our earlier debate. Such a disincentive is precisely that there is a genuine risk of the number of claims the opposite of what the Government say they want. being driven down. That is why we have tabled the amendment. We want Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): It is the people to ensure that local authorities must take proper steps my hon. Friend has mentioned—those who are on the to publicise their schemes, and also that they assist poverty line and do not have any spare cash—who will those facing difficulties in applying, perhaps because of be in arrears with their council tax. Every day in our disability or because they are not sufficiently literate or surgeries we see people who tell us that the bailiffs are numerate and do not understand the forms. We have all about to arrive. How can the Government’s proposals come across such constituency cases. Having rights is of possibly help? no use if people are ignorant of them or cannot exercise them, so it is only fair and reasonable that these safeguards should be built into the Bill from the start. Through Helen Jones: They will not help those people, and them, we hope to counter the Government’s incentives they will not help councils. We discussed the financial to reduce the number of claims from people who have risks for councils earlier, but one of the main financial an entitlement to benefit. risks is an increase in the number of defaults because people are simply unable to pay—and, indeed, there is Amendment 68 seeks to ensure that before a scheme no evenness in that situation. In North-East Derbyshire is drawn up there is consultation not only with precepting 49.4% of recipients of council tax benefit are pensioners, authorities and what the Bill vaguely refers to as “others” while in North Kesteven the proportion is 53.2%. People with an interest, but with organisations that assist and living there face a bigger cut than people living in, say, represent people on the receiving end of this Government’s Luton, where the proportion is only 28.2%. The scheme cuts. In respect of this Bill, it is fair to say that so far will subject people to cuts that are entirely arbitrary and such organisations have been largely ignored. The big unfair, while transferring the risk to local authorities. society clearly does not include those who give up their Many people will find themselves in real financial difficulty, time to assist some of our most vulnerable citizens, and while councils’ collection rates will fall. who deal every day with the impact of job losses and the consequences of child poverty and try to help those Amendment 67 would require local authorities to for whom every day is a struggle. Any redesign of the make people aware of their entitlement to council tax scheme ought to take account of the views of those who benefit, and to give the necessary assistance to those will be dealing with its impact. who wish to make an application. I believe that good As has been said, the impact will be extremely severe councils will do that anyway, but the Bill puts such because it will come on top of the Government’s other pressure on local authorities that some—albeit, I believe, changes to welfare benefits. Let me give an example of a very few—will be deterred from seeking out claimants one-parent family living in a three-bedroom house in and informing them of their rights. Authorities are Knowsley. Assuming that they can stay in their home currently reimbursed monthly for expenditure that they even though they will be more than £800 a year worse actually incur, but the Government intend to pay grants, off under the Government’s changes, they will then be and we do not know what methodology they will use to hit again by this scheme because in Knowsley there is set the level of those grants. Although they have promised likely to be a 20% council tax benefit cut. They will to set allocations annually for the first two years, there therefore have to find a further £170 per year. Those is no certainty about what will happen after that. who deal with people in our welfare system and who The Government have already said, in their response give advice to people in poverty should be consulted on to the consultation, that the design of these schemes. 759 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 760

We often forget the great number of children who will are debating this topic without knowing what the guidance be forced further into poverty by this scheme. In the will say or even if the Government’s preferred options Liverpool city region, 14.8% of children in poverty are will be affordable for local councils. All local councils in working families—those claiming working family tax will be forced to cut the benefits available to non-pensioners credit or child tax credit. Those families will also be and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East reliant on council tax benefit. What will happen to them (Heidi Alexander) said, they could cease payment entirely when this scheme comes into force is very clear. More to certain groups. people will be unable to pay, so there will be more We believe it is right to protect pensioners but, as we pressure, more debt and quite possibly more people are making clear in the amendments, we also believe falling into the hands of loan sharks. Anyone who does that others’ needs have to be considered. The Government not think that will happen has never walked around a seem to want to ignore those people as they have done big estate and seen how these people operate. They with every other measure they have introduced. They often wait outside the place where people collect their strive to paint a picture of people on benefits as feckless benefit, and take the money straight off them. That is and workshy. They talk about the price paid by hard- the reality of life on the edge. That is what many of our working taxpayers as though they were somehow a charitable organisations and benefit advice agencies different species from those receiving benefits. I have to deal with every day. It is only right that they should be say, as someone who would clamp down ruthlessly on consulted. benefit fraud, that the vast majority of people on benefit Amendments 70 and 71 seek to ensure—[Interruption.] receive it legitimately, and that most unemployed people Yes, it is the same story, I say to the hon. Member for receiving council tax benefit have paid taxes and would Burnley (Gordon Birtwistle), and it will be the same like nothing better than to be in work paying them story for many of my constituents, and his, when this again, as would all the disabled people I meet. Those in scheme comes into effect. I am terribly sorry the hon. employment who receive council tax benefit are precisely Gentleman does not want to hear about the reality of the hard-working taxpayers—people who go out every the impact this scheme will have. That is hard luck for day to work in low-paid jobs—whom the Government him, but it is even worse luck for the people who will be will penalise for doing the right thing by going out to on the receiving end. work for poverty wages.

Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend also agree that 8.30 pm the Bill’s provisions will hit a lot of northern cities— including Burnley, perhaps—much harder than some of I have had people tell me that they are not well paid the leafier suburbs of the south? in work, and I am sure other hon. Members have had the same. They know that they are on a poor wage but they go out to work because they believe it is the right Helen Jones: My hon. Friend is right, but many thing to do and they want to set an example to their different authorities will be affected. We heard earlier children and show what hard work means. Those people from Members on the Government Benches who represent are going to be hit over and over again. It is time that south coast constituencies where there are lots of elderly the Government stopped trying to demonise people. It people. They and their colleagues will be very surprised is time that they faced up to their responsibilities to when they begin to realise the impact in their own create growth instead of trying to stigmatise people constituencies of what they have voted for. who are desperate for a job. It is time they ensured that Amendments 70 and 71 seek to ensure that in any the needs of people who are struggling either to stay in revision of the scheme by the Secretary of State the work or to get a job are properly recognised. That is impact on all those who may receive, or be entitled to, why we have moved these amendments to the scheme benefit is considered. We therefore state that it is not that the Government are attempting to bring in. We only those of pensionable age who need to be considered, want to ensure that people of working age and people but those in employment or seeking work and people in in poverty, because these people are in poverty, are receipt of other benefits, such as disability benefit. We properly considered when schemes are drawn up or do so because although under the current scheme 5.9 million revised. I hope that the Government will accept the people receive council tax benefit and 38% of them are amendments, because if they are serious about not over 65, 62%—3.7 million people—are under 65. These wanting to hit those people there is nothing to prevent amendments seek to put their needs on the agenda, as them from accepting the amendments. If they do not, they appear to have been forgotten by the Government. we will seek at least to press amendment 66 to a vote. Also, 67% of claims are passported claims—they are from people receiving income support, jobseeker’s allowance Annette Brooke: I wish to make some brief comments or employment support allowance, for instance. Only and refer to the impact assessment on the localisation of 1.7 million of the 3.9 million on passported benefits are council tax benefit, which looks at many of the issues receiving pension credit, so most of these people are raised by the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen also of working age. Jones). I note in particular that the impact assessment Other claims—the standard claims—are decided flags up some local authority responsibilities. The Child following a means test. Crucially, people who are working Poverty Act 2010 imposes a duty on local authorities to may get council tax benefit, subject to an income taper. have regard to and address child poverty and, with their Claimants lose 20p in council tax benefit for each partners, to reduce and mitigate the effects of child additional pound they earn over the applicable amount. poverty in their local area. The Disabled Persons (Services, No one knows what the position will be for those Consultation and Representation) Act 1986 and the people under localised schemes. The Government may Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 include issue guidance but, as usual in respect of this Bill, we a range of duties relating to the welfare needs of disabled 761 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 762

[Annette Brooke] as well as rising energy and food bills, this tax relief is to be squeezed precisely at the point when there is the people. The Housing Act 1996 places on local authorities greatest need for help among low-income households. a duty to prevent homelessness, with special regard to As others have said, pensioners and vulnerable households vulnerable groups. are to be protected, and rightly so, from the cuts, but Given that local authorities have those duties on that means that the whole of the 10% saving that local them, is there any need to propose the amendments? authorities must make will fall on the unprotected These issues are important for the very reasons that group—mainly the working poor. have been identified—the 10% cut, the different numbers and proportions of pensioners in different authorities Mr Kevan Jones: In his response to the previous and the different balances that mean that some authorities debate, the Minister suggested that gap could be filled could get more money through the changes to discounts by councils being able to levy extra tax on second for second homes and empty homes. Some authorities homes, and his hon. Friend the Member for Bradford will have great difficulty in protecting vulnerable people. East (Mr Ward) said there were plenty of those in The number could be quite small, but that possibility is Bradford. How many does my hon. Friend think there there because of the different demographics of different are in Stockton? areas. I understand that local authorities might have to go Alex Cunningham: That is an interesting question, through an equality needs assessment and I should like which I wish I could answer. I do not see many empty to know from the Minister how they should address homes, never mind second homes, in our area, so I these issues, which are in the impact assessment on the think it might be a challenge for us to find some. I am localisation of council tax benefit. Will there be any sure we have a few, but I doubt they would fill the gap as question of councils having to go through judicial review? the Minister suggests they could. In an authority such It seems to me that there are going to be protections in as Stockton, with high numbers of older people, the the detail of the schemes to be introduced, but also burden on the people the measure hits will be tremendous. some challenges for local authorities given the difficulties The burden will get higher and higher on ever fewer that we are outlining over and over again—the 10% cut, people. In many cases, the gains made by the working the different proportions of pensioners, and authorities’ poor from the recent £1,000 increase in the income tax different abilities to raise money with the new freedoms personal allowance will be completely wiped out by the and flexibilities. With all those differences across areas, reduction in council tax benefit and the knock-on effects. could some areas be faced with judicial review if they Surely that is exactly the opposite of what the DWP cannot address the duties placed on them by existing says it is trying to do? Are the Secretaries of State legislation? talking to each other? I wonder. Alongside the rise in VAT and other benefit changes, we are faced with these Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I support regressive policies that will hit some people extremely the amendments on the impact of the scheme. This hard—people who already work hard for little reward. debate is about people’s lives, about families and people These proposals are simply a slap in the face for their who live on the edge financially, but it is also about local efforts to improve their lives. authorities’ ability to deliver services at the standards The Local Government Association has calculated we have come to expect in our communities. It is a that councils are being asked to share the £500 million debacle: the Government’s proposals on council tax cut among 1.3 million claimants, which works out at an benefit will simply heap greater burdens on the most average loss of £320 each. That is a significant sum for vulnerable households and families at a time when the low earners, especially when the Government claim they Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is already are trying to protect work incentives for them. It has making life tougher for them. I would have hoped that been estimated that council tax support for pensioners the Secretary of State for Communities and Local makes up 50% of the total funding, and roughly a Government had at least talked to his counterpart at further 25% recipients would also be exempt from the the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that reductions in support because of councils’ duties to their policies did not conflict in the way they clearly do. support vulnerable groups and tackle child poverty. The amendments would help to deal with some of that Such people should of course be exempt, but that could conflict. lead to the 10% budget cut falling on the remaining 25% “Make work pay.” That is what the Prime Minister of recipients—on the support provided to low-paid has said over and over again, and he is determined to people in work. Those people are working hard for their make that happen. No one could or should argue with families, trying to do their best. They have pride in what that statement, but it is vital to create incentives so that they are doing, yet this Government are just kicking it is always better to be in employment than on benefits. them. The Government’s proposals on council tax benefits will totally undermine that objective. They are simply Ian Mearns: I have just had a brainwave about where yet another attack on hard-working families. an awful lot of these second homes that will fill the gap I know that council tax benefit is available to those will come from. When the housing benefit changes kick on low incomes who need financial help to pay their in, and people are evicted from their properties because council tax bill, but I am shocked that Ministers appear they can no longer afford the rent as the property was to believe that a 10% cut to the benefit will somehow— under-occupied, those empty properties that belong to perhaps magically; we talked about magic earlier private sector landlords will be empty second homes. Of on—reduce the number of people who need it. In these course we can raise the revenue from them. Does my harsh economic times, with high and rising unemployment hon. Friend think that is a possibility? 763 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 764

Alex Cunningham: I have known my hon. Friend for The incentive that changes to council tax benefit will many years, and I am used to his brainwaves, which give local authorities to encourage low-income people normally apply to education. Of course, he is perfectly to move elsewhere is totally undesirable and unacceptable, right. yet the Government seem intent on banishing the poorest The people who will be affected already face higher in our society from our towns and cities. Let me give food and energy bills. Sadly, however hard they work, one example of the chaos that could result from the they are unlikely to get any of the fancy bonuses that council tax changes and other changes: it is estimated will be pouring into the coffers of bankers and everybody that 20,000 families could move out of central London else over the next few weeks and months. Quite simply, to find accommodation elsewhere. What an effect that the proposals merely transfer one of the national costs could have on jobs, children and services. If several of rising unemployment to councils and local taxpayers, thousand children move out of central London, inner-city creating a serious risk that every resident will see further schools may no longer be viable, and other areas may service cuts beyond those already threatened. not have the capacity to take them in. We know that the plans of the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions In my constituency of Stockton North, the theoretical will have that effect, but surely the Secretary of State for 10% reduction in council tax benefit will equate to Communities and Local Government does not need to around £1.2 million; within the Stockton borough, the help him. figure is £1.7 million. In reality, as pensioners are excluded from the change, those affected are likely to suffer a Removing council tax benefit from vulnerable people 20%, rather than a 10%, reduction. I must add that is not the answer. In-work poverty is getting worse as Stockton-on-Tees borough council’s revenue budget, wages are frozen and the cost of living rises sharply. along with that of every other council across the country, Around 61% of children living in poverty live in working already faces tremendous reductions. In Stockton, there households with parents who are working hard to feed is to be a reduction of £26.5 million. Where will it find them, clothe them and send them to school. The figure the extra money to bolster this budget, when it will need in 2005-06 was 50%, so more people are now working to to pay out to an increasing number of people who will support their families, but they are doing so on paltry have to claim council tax benefit? The cuts that the incomes. Surely no one in this Committee believes that council is suffering are in addition to cuts of £12.3 that number should go any higher. That is why the million to specific grants; the early intervention grant Government must think again about these damaging was cut by £3 million, and of course there was the changes to council tax benefit and adopt the amendments future jobs fund, which the Government do not appreciate. that will protect, if no one else, the working poor. Frankly, the Government are giving to those on low incomes with one hand, and taking away with the other. 8.45 pm There is no regard at all for the implications for people’s standard of living, and people are living on the edge. I Mr Ward: Those Members who sat on the Localism know; I see these people at my surgeries. They do not Bill Committee will not be too surprised by what I have have that extra £2, £3, £4, £5 or £6 a week to spend on to say. Before us is a series of amendments that seek to council tax. They need to spend that money on feeding impose on local authorities an obligation to have regard their children. The money to pay extra council tax is not to different categories and groups when coming up with there. their new schemes. The Opposition seem to be oscillating between complete outrage that the Secretary of State is The amendments would save the Government from using powers to impose various things on local authorities themselves. They would help the Government to fulfil and seeking to impose through legislation requirements their commitment to joined-up government—that is if that local authorities do certain things before introducing the Secretaries of State bother to talk to each other. The their schemes. amendments would also ensure that the huge hit to the working poor did not happen. If the Government accept the amendments, they will be recognising the real need, Helen Jones: Is the hon. Gentleman seriously arguing and will have the opportunity to do something about it. that local authorities should not have regard to people Without the amendments, many more people will be employed on low wages, people actively seeking work or plunged into poverty, undoing much of the good work levels of poverty in their areas? What is the reason for that the Labour party did in government to improve the that? living standards of the poorest in society.The Government may well find that they have not made work pay; Mr Ward: Not at all. I anticipate that any local instead, some families will find themselves better off authority worth its salt would have regard to all the back on benefits and out of work. Where is the pride in things proposed in the amendments. In fact, that will that? differentiate good local authorities from bad ones, but it Furthermore, the Institute for Fiscal Studies predicts is not for the Secretary of State to specify those things, that as a result of the changes in council tax benefit, or indeed for us to do so through legislation, which individual councils could reduce the benefits to such an frankly would be patronising and very centralist. As we extent that it would encourage low-income people to said many times in relation to the Localism Bill, people move out of the area. The think-tank also points out have a right to judge at the ballot box whether their that the changes would create a complex, two-tier benefit authorities are doing what they should be doing—it is system, with both local and central Government setting not for this House to tell them. policy. That runs counter to the idea of the streamlined universal credit to which my hon. Friend the Member Mr Kevan Jones: I was going to say that it was a for Warrington North (Helen Jones) referred, which is pleasure to follow the hon. Gentleman, but his contribution being introduced by the Work and Pensions Secretary. kept getting worse. 765 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 766

[Mr Kevan Jones] count in my constituency was 2,674 people, or 5% of the population; in Beaconsfield, it was 903 people, or Clause 8 of the Bill, headed “Council tax reduction 1.5% of the population; in Aldershot, it was 1,749 people, schemes”, sets out the provisions for local councils to or 2.6%; and in Wokingham—I have to say to the draw up their local council tax schemes. Proposed new people of Wokingham that I have nothing against their subsection (2) states: town, but it is always a good example to cite in such “Each billing authority in England must make a scheme specifying debates—it was just 936 people, or 1.3%. the reductions which are to apply to amounts of council tax That shows the disproportionate effect of council tax payable, in respect of dwellings situated in its area, by— benefit in different areas, and if there is nothing in the (a) persons whom the authority considers to be in financial Bill to say that unemployment needs to be taken into need, or consideration, it prompts the question, will those councils (b) persons in classes consisting of persons whom the authority where unemployment is relatively low take it into considers to be, in general, in financial need.” consideration when fixing their council tax scheme? However, the Bill gives no guidance on what local The Minister said that the Secretary of State will not authorities should take into consideration when drawing need to intervene, but that is not the case, because as my up their schemes. We could have a plethora of different right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich schemes up and down the country and, as was referred (Mr Raynsford) points out, the right hon. Gentleman to earlier by Government Members, neighbouring will intervene if he does not agree with a scheme. He has authorities could have completely different schemes and the power to do so, and to change the financial year of a criteria for how people apply for council tax benefit. We scheme, so what the Minister has said is not the case. know that the Secretary of State will exclude pensioners, but the amendments tabled by my right hon. and hon. Ian Mearns: In the light of the Minister’s reflection Friends would add some criteria or at least set out what that the Secretary of State is highly unlikely to use his the baseline should be. powers of intervention, on what date does my hon. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Bradford East Friend think the right hon. Gentleman became such a (Mr Ward) does not seem to care and trusts that every shrinking violet that he would not use the powers that local authority, good or bad, will consider every single were open to him? thing, including child poverty. If he had any experience of the Secretary of State’s time in charge of Bradford Mr Kevan Jones: The Secretary of State’s track record council, for example—clearly he had—he would know is there to see. On his edicts, he talks very much about that he had little concern for the poor and the needy. localism, but in this Bill we already see that he has kept for himself swingeing powers to intervene. Over the Mr Ward: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman past 18 months, we have had diktats to councils on carried out a full impact assessment before voting to get weekly elections, including the idea that to save money rid of the 10p rate of income tax, which affected the they should have fewer pot plants, and lectures on the most deprived people in the country. size of their balances, so I do not accept that he is a born-again devolutionist who is giving powers to local The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. That authorities. He will quite clearly intervene when he intervention is not relevant to the amendments. needs to.

Mr Kevan Jones: Interventions have to be relevant, as Helen Jones: Does my hon. Friend also agree that the Mr Hood points out, but I would not stand for election, Secretary of State’s attitude to poorer people in our as the hon. Member for Bradford East and other Liberal communities can be seen clearly from when he ran Democrats did, on the idea of supporting the poor by Bradford city council? We do not have to look into the increasing income tax thresholds, and then support the crystal ball when we can read the book. Conservatives in pushing through this Bill, which is going to affect some of the poorest and neediest in our Mr Kevan Jones: Exactly. But the Secretary of State is society—and somehow turn a blind eye to that. As I also highly political, and the Bill does not take into said earlier in response to his hon. Friend the Member account unemployment and other things because, again, for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke), that is part of its general sweep. It is about giving local none of this legislation could go through without the councils not only responsibilities, but blame, because if Liberal Democrats, and I am sure that in Bradford at a local council comes up with a certain scheme, the right the next general election the Labour party and others hon. Gentleman can say, “It’s not my problem, it’s your will remind the hon. Gentleman’s electorate that he and local authority dealing with it,” even though he has his party were the ones who put through this Bill, which poisoned the pill that he has given them with a 10% cut takes away council tax benefits from the poorest and in the grant for council tax benefit. most vulnerable in our society. So he cannot have it The Secretary of State is also political in saying that both ways. councils are free to not put up council tax because they The amendment would take unemployment into will get grant for three years, but that he can give no consideration, and it is important to look at unemployment guarantee for the year before the next general election. and how it affects local councils’ claimants for council That is because he wants to shift the blame for the tax benefit. As you will know, Mr Hood, unemployment decisions that this Government are taking—both Liberal in the north-east stands at 11.7%, 3.4 percentage points Democrats and Conservatives—on to local councils. higher than the national average, while unemployment Slowly but surely, local councils and councillors of all rates in the south-east are just 6.3%. If we look across persuasions are waking up to the fact that they will have the constituencies, we find that the most recent claimant to make tough decisions. They will have to not only 767 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 768 divide the smaller cake after the 10% reduction in Mr Mike Hancock: You’re going to buy a house council tax benefit, but invent a scheme that is seen to there, aren’t you? be fair. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North Mr Kevan Jones: I am hoping to be made a freeman. I (Helen Jones) spoke about people who are in receipt of have given it enough plugs in these debates. council tax benefit. There is a misnomer that is repeated on a number of occasions. Reading the press, one would The Temporary Chair (Mr Jim Hood): Order. I am think that every single person who gets housing benefit sure second home preferences are a matter for some or council tax benefit is in receipt of unemployment other debate, but not for this one. benefit. They are not. Some of the poorest people in society are working very hard to keep a roof over their 9pm head. These changes will affect their ability to keep that roof over their head. Mr Kevan Jones: In the 2010-11 financial year, Wokingham had 5,159 people claiming council tax benefit, Another concern is that if there are no criteria for the which was 3.9% of the population and cost £5.3 million. various schemes, there will be a plethora of different That authority covers the constituencies of Wokingham, schemes up and down the country. Maidenhead, Reading East and Bracknell. Hart, in Hampshire, had 3,029 claimants, which was 4.2% of the Gavin Barwell: That’s localism. population and cost £3 million. It covers the Aldershot and North East Hampshire constituencies. Mr Kevan Jones: The hon. Gentleman says that that South Buckinghamshire council had 3,024 claimants is localism, but it will lead to real issues, especially if the for the year 2010-11, which equated to 5.6% of the Secretary of State is of the Norman Tebbit variety and population aged over 16 and led to expenditure of thinks that people should get on their bike and work. If £3.4 million. South Oxfordshire had 5,848 claimants, there are disincentives because of the different schemes which represented 5.6% of the population aged over in different parts of the country, it will be difficult for 16 and cost £6.1 million. That area covers the constituencies people to do that. of Henley and Wantage. Finally, Vale of White Horse The chaos that will ensue in London will be something council in Oxfordshire had 5,578 claimants, which was to behold. Potentially, there will be 33 different schemes 5.8% of the over-16 population and cost £5.7 million. It for the administration of council tax benefit in London. covers the constituencies of Wantage and Oxford West From talking to colleagues in London, I know that and Abingdon. people move across the council boundaries freely. They do not take into consideration the fact that they are Ian Mearns: My hon. Friend emphasises the differences moving from one council to another. Some colleagues between local authority areas, and he has compared tell me that 25% or more of their local electoral register Durham and Wokingham. A prime indicator of levels churns over every single year. How will people be clear of deprivation is the number of looked-after children about what the scheme is in one borough as opposed to per 10,000 population, and I just happen to have that another? If we add to this the changes in the Welfare statistic for Wokingham. The number there is 22 per Reform Bill, which will have a disproportionate effect in 10,000 population, whereas in Middlesbrough it is London and drive people out of higher-cost rental 104 per 10,000 population. That illustrates the contrast areas, there will be administrative chaos. between the levels of deprivation and need in different Individuals will not be clear about which scheme areas, and I hope he will bear it in mind. applies to them and some people will get into arrears with their council tax, as my hon. Friend the Member Mr Kevan Jones: I will, and that is why it is important for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) said when he intervened to have in the Bill the criteria by which authorities will on my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North. draw up their local schemes. We will get to a situation where the number of evictions The reason why I give the differences between areas is increases and where people and their children face that it is quite clear that Durham will have to draw up insecurity about their homes. It will be very difficult for its scheme very differently from the other authorities councils that have a large turnover of individuals to that I have mentioned. They also indicate that, as I said collect council tax. There is nothing to compensate in last week’s debate, the Bill will favour southern authorities that have a large turnover for that effect. councils over northern ones such as Durham. It is not a There will be a double whammy for those councils: they coincidence that all the constituencies that I read out will face the 10% cut and it will be difficult for them to happen to be Conservative. collect council tax. We must also consider the difference in the number of Helen Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that councils people who claim council tax benefit in different authorities. will face a further penalty through the cost of appeals As I said earlier, County Durham has 63,494 claimants, once the scheme comes in, which again will be worse for which is 15% of people aged 16 and above. Last year, councils with more claimants? I suspect that there will that cost £55.1 million. The situation will be the same in be a lot of appeals, and there will be a cost in both staff other large councils in the north-east, and in other areas time and legal representation. Councils will also face such as the constituency of my right hon. Friend the the cost of chasing up unpaid council tax, which will Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth). There are a large increase hugely. number of people on either unemployment benefits or low wages who receive council tax benefits. We can Mr Kevan Jones: I agree, and that will have a compare that with some southern councils, and I will disproportionate effect on northern councils such as give a few examples. Wokingham— County Durham. It will also be a complete nightmare 769 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 770

[Mr Kevan Jones] Mr Kevan Jones: My right hon. Friend makes a good point. The Bill is being rushed through. If we were for local authorities in London. I know that the Bill considering a root and branch, proper review of local allows for data sharing between local councils and the government finance, we could examine my right hon. Department for Work and Pensions, but given the Friend’s suggestion. I suspect that the Government do movement of people in London it will be very difficult not want to do that because it affects a lot of pensioners indeed for councils to chase people up. and they think that pensioners may be more interested What are the options open to councils such as Durham, in voting Conservative than not. For the same reason, given the 10% cut, to make up the difference? The they will not go anywhere near revaluation of domestic Minister and the hon. Member for Bradford East said properties. that it would be made up by charging a different rate on My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North second homes. made a very good point about the comments of the Minister for Housing and Local Government, who Mr George Howarth: My hon. Friend the Member seems to think that people can somehow magic up for Warrington North (Helen Jones) just made the economic development in local areas to increase revenues. point that councils could be bogged down in appeals. That is supposedly the entire basis of the Bill: that Does my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham councils will be free to create extra demand instantly (Mr Jones) believe that it is also conceivable that the Bill through economic development. It is a damn sight could be deemed discriminatory under the Human Rights harder to attract businesses to the north-east than it is Act 1998? The Bill contains a declaration—as do all to the south-east of England. Bills, for purposes of the Human Rights Act—that the There is a problem with who is consulted about the Secretary of State says that scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington “the provisions of the Local Government Finance Bill are compatible North made a good point about the mess caused by the with the Convention rights.” system having to be tackled by the charitable sector, Does my hon. Friend think that that might slightly local credit unions, which will have to sort people out overstate the case? when they get into debt, local branches of Age Concern, citizens advice bureaux and others. It is only right that Mr Kevan Jones: My right hon. Friend raises a very they are statutorily consulted on the drawing up of the good point, because we will have different schemes in scheme. If they are not, at the end of the process they different areas. I wonder whether there will be challenges will have further burdens because they will have to try to the criteria that are used to draw them up. The hon. to sort out the mess created by the Bill—many are Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said that having their grants cut already. various equality Acts applied to the measure. They may I am sure the Minister, in his feeble way, will refuse to well do, but that is not stated on the face of the Bill. If accept the amendments because the Bill is part of a people who find that they are not in receipt of council strategy. He is part of that strategy, even if he does not tax benefit after the measure is introduced feel that their understand it. In effect, the Secretary of State wants to local authority has discriminated against them, that will give as many freedoms as possible to local government doubtless lead to court cases. Again, the costs will fall so that he can wash his hands of it and stand up to the on local authorities, and again, no doubt the Secretary electorate and say, “It’s your local council’s fault.” I of State will be nowhere to be seen and will blame hope local councillors of all political persuasions are councils for not implementing the scheme properly. waking up to what the Secretary of State is up to. He is The hole could be plugged by further cutting benefits blaming them for his decisions. Until they wake up to for those who are in work and others. Second homes that fact and start protesting—some Liberal Democrats give another method—obviously, there are a plethora bravely voted against the Bill tonight—we will end up of second homes in Bradford. with confusion and mess in local government and blame, and some of the poorest and weakest in our society will Ian Mearns: There are loads in Gateshead. be affected. Mr Kevan Jones: Obviously, and in other places. They will fill the black hole. We could also increase council Mr Mike Hancock: Once again, I am concerned tax. However, that is no good for councils in the north-east, about the lack of time, because I would have loved to where 50% of properties are in band A. have had a proper debate on amendments 59 and 60, which go to the heart of the problems we face. The Ian Mearns: Fifty-six per cent. amendments, which were tabled by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), would Mr Kevan Jones: My hon. Friend says that the figure defer the scheme for a year. Unfortunately, he is not in is 56%. Only 2% of properties in Surrey are in band A. the Chamber to move the amendments, so it looks like The ability of councils in the north-east to raise additional we will not have the chance to pursue the matter. The funds is severely limited. need to give local authorities more time was one of the things about which Members spoke most eloquently John Healey: My hon. Friend is talking about plugging when we debated the previous group of amendments. the hole caused by the 10% cut and highlighting the It is disappointing that the Minister did not give even feeble arguments from Ministers about the flexibility a hint that the problems exposed by hon. Members around the second home discount. Has he asked himself would be given consideration. I have a lot of sympathy why the Government have not considered the single for the hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex person’s discount, which is worth £2.4 billion in total—more Cunningham), who spoke of the problems of “outsourcing” than five times the 10% cut? 20,000 people from London. He said that that would 771 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 772 have an effect on London’s infrastructure and mean Mr Hancock: I honestly believe that the hon. Gentleman impending problems for receiving authorities. Any authority is in the market for a property in Wokingham, or if not that has received large numbers of people after population Wokingham, Hart. movements will know only too well of the struggle to put in place the infrastructure needed to absorb them. Mr Kevan Jones: I could not afford it. Suggesting that 20,000 people leaving London will be easy is an easy soundbite, but I simply do not believe it. Mr Hancock: I am sure the hon. Gentleman could; he The Government need to think again if they are suggesting is being far too modest. that that is a ground for supporting the Bill, because it On the hon. Gentleman’s point about income tax and cannot be right. higher income tax payers, I am disappointed that we The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) will not get anywhere near the amendments that I and mentioned the cost of appeals and how long they will others tabled on excluding higher income tax payers take. When do they kick in? For how long must people from the 25% discount. I would hope that the Government appeal? What would the regime be? Would it be a simple would give local authorities the ability totally to restrict paper exercise or could people appear and give details people on higher income tax from having the 25% of their circumstances in front of, say, a group of discount. councillors or officials? We need to know. How will they Once again, I am disappointed that we will not have be resolved? the opportunity to pursue many of these issues, and I Why should local authorities take into account the implore the Minister to try to secure the maximum impact of the scheme on the aspects outlined in amendment amount of time on Report to allow us properly to 66? That is a key question. The hon. Member for discuss the amendments that we have not reached. Stockton North made the point that we cannot ask local authorities to exclude so many people and not ask Andrew Stunell: Again, we have had an interesting them to consider the effects on the poorest groups of and wide-ranging debate. I have to say that the amendments working people. If they do not consider that, they we have discussed cut across the approach we set out for would be doing a great disservice to the people. The reforming support for the council tax and the whole Secretary of State for Work and Pensions was in the localisation agenda. In the first debate, there seemed to Chamber just now, but it is sad that he has not heard be broad support for the view that the localisation part more of the debate, because the points being made are of the proposals was the right way forward, and I relevant for his Department. particularly welcomed the words of the hon. Member However, if the Bill goes through without the for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), the Select Committee amendment, it will cause local authorities serious problems. Chairman, who made it clear that that was his view. In Any local authority worth its salt would want to take the event, that turned out to be rather a contrast with the issues I mentioned into consideration and would the views of the hon. Member for Warrington North, like to have some flexibility to help the groups affected. who argued strongly against localisation. Then, rather Why not say that in the Bill? Is anyone seriously saying puzzlingly, she said that some of us did not know what that that would be an unreasonable expectation for was going on in the real world. Perhaps that is not a local people to have? [Interruption.] I am getting a puzzling thing to say, but I have to say that it is not the signal that my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford reality. With my wife, I brought up five children on East (Mr Ward) might be of a different opinion from family income supplement for two years, so I think I do me. I happen to think that setting out those matters in know what it means when there is not enough money to the Bill is the right thing to do, and I have yet to hear a buy things. coherent argument to suggest that we should not take that into consideration. Once again, that is why, when Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): Will the Minister we vote tonight, I will vote to support the amendment. give way?

Andrew Stunell: No, I will not give way. I am just 9.15 pm going to make a little progress. I must finish, however, where I started. I am disappointed The hon. Lady said that we did not understand the that we will not have the opportunity to vote on the leeches on the estate who collected the money on payday, deferments. I do not know whether somebody else can but at the same time she seems to be in favour of move the amendments I mentioned, in the absence of channelling money through universal benefit, rather the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich, than localising it through a council tax reduction scheme. but I hope so. As the Select Committee Chairman rightly said, that is I should tell the hon. Member for North Durham not only localist, but helpful in securing income for (Mr Jones) that if I was a betting man, I would be in local authorities. The hon. Lady reinforced the point Ladbrokes tomorrow to see who had made a wager with her story of the leeches on the estate. about how many times Wokingham was mentioned in the House of Commons. His speech reminded me of a Helen Jones: I am sorry, but the Minister cannot have Pakistani bowler bowling no balls, and there seemed to it both ways either. The Secretary of State is taking the be a premeditated effort on his part to secure the most power to give guidance on what should be included in mentions possible of Wokingham. the scheme, and the Government have already said that pensioners must be protected under the scheme—we Mr Kevan Jones: Does the hon. Gentleman think I agree with that—so the Minister cannot then argue that should get a sponsorship deal with the borough of he wants everything left to local councils, because that Wokingham? is exactly what he is not doing. 773 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 774

Andrew Stunell: Unfortunately, the hon. Lady has Local authorities are already well accustomed to partly misread the scheme. Paragraph 2(8) of schedule 4 using these powers to determine in what circumstances provides the Secretary of State with the power to make council tax liability should be reduced, whether in individual regulations in relation to the requirements of schemes, cases or a class of cases. Local authorities are best and he intends to use this power to require authorities placed to understand local needs, including those of to provide support for pensioners. The purpose of that low-income families. Paragraph 2(5) of proposed new provision is precisely to safeguard pensioners—a point schedule 1A to the Local Government Finance Act on which, it would appear, there is cross-party support. 1992, which is inserted by schedule 4, already requires It does not require the Secretary of State to approve local authorities to set out the procedures for making schemes, and it is not a power to intervene in schemes. I an application for a reduction under the scheme. think that I have made that point clear to the House, Amendments 56 and 70 would require local authorities and if I have not, I repeat it now to make it so. to take into account the impact of their schemes on the Several rather whacky points have been made. The living standards and work incentives of taxpayers, and hon. Gentleman for Stockport North said—[HON. on poverty levels when designing or revising their schemes. MEMBERS: “Stockton North”] Sorry, I should know However, local authorities already have clearly defined better. The hon. Member for Stockton North said that responsibilities in relation to, and for their awareness of, Labour had worked hard to close the gap between the the most vulnerable groups and individuals in their rich and poor. Well, I do not know how hard it worked, areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and but it certainly did not work, because the gap between North Poole (Annette Brooke) made the point that the rich and the poor widened in that time. It did not there are statutory responsibilities on local government narrow. He seemed extremely sceptical about whether it when drawing up such schemes, or indeed taking any of was possible for authorities such as Stockton to generate its functions forward. An important example is the the additional income from discounts and exemptions public sector equality duty in section 149 of the Equality to compensate them for the loss of council tax benefit Act 2010, which requires authorities in the exercise of grant. their functions to have due regard to the promotion of equality between persons who share a protected By my count, 18 local authorities have been drawn characteristic, while the Child Poverty Act 2010 imposes into the debate in one way or another—all of them by a duty on local authorities to have regard to, and to Opposition Members praying in aid councils that they address, child poverty. She referred, quite properly, to believed would be at a disadvantage. Of those 18, 14 the Disabled Persons (Services, Consultation and could in fact generate from the discounts and exemptions Representation) Act 1986 and the Chronically Sick and in their areas more money than they would lose from Disabled Persons Act 1970, both of which include a the loss of council tax benefit grant. Among those range of duties relating to the welfare needs of disabled authorities is Stockton, which would have a surplus, if it people. She also referred to the Housing Act 1996, extinguished all the discounts. The hon. Member for which gives local authorities a duty to prevent homelessness. Stockton North referred to second homes, but an important part of the new flexibility—and part of the reason Putting all that together, it is quite clear that every Stockton could have a surplus—relates to empty homes. local authority is familiar with the need to ensure that Empty homes discounts provide another potential source any scheme it draws up complies with existing statutory of revenue. guidelines. That is a continuous process that requires all the relevant decision makers to consider equality, disability When one considers the generality of local authorities, and other issues, in forming policy and making decisions. one discovers that were all those discounts and exemptions We expect to continue with that sensible approach. to be extinguished—as I said in the previous debate, I There is no reason for unnecessary additional bureaucracy am not arguing that they should be, but I want the to be imposed on local authorities. House to understand that the flexibility is there—it would result in an additional income to local authorities Heidi Alexander: With the best will in the world, is in England of £420 million. By what my hon. Friend the not the problem that, with £490 million less to administer Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) called a fluke, in council tax benefit—a reduction that will come about that happens to be the same amount as the 10% reduction. as a result of the proposals in the Bill—councils will be The Government are not arguing that every local authority simply unable to meet the needs of the rising numbers should simply extinguish those discounts and exemptions. of people who will be unemployed in future? We are simply pointing out that that provides for a significant flexibility, and I would be surprised if a large Andrew Stunell: If I can correct just one small point, majority of councils did not choose to make that flexibility the figure is £420 million for England, although the sum a part of the mix when devising a scheme. for the United Kingdom as a whole is larger. The hon. Local authorities need to plan carefully to ensure Lady is quite right that there is to be a reduction in the that they can meet demand through the funding that funding of council tax benefit support. That is not in they make available to local schemes. As the hon. Member dispute. My point—and the point the Government are for Warrington North acknowledged, however, funding making—is that local authorities have additional income for the first two years of localised schemes is derived streams open to them in later parts of the Bill. They from the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast for also have the opportunity to tailor their schemes to suit spending on council tax benefit, which reflects existing their local circumstances, and if they choose to draw spending and, therefore, assumptions about underlying resources from other parts of their income streams, it is demographic changes, including growth in the pensioner open to them to do that. population, and council tax increases. Thereafter, of Let me turn to amendments 49 and 56. It is unclear course, the spending review process will provide further how a local authority could take into account the opportunities to consider cost pressures. impact of claimants who were receiving council tax 775 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 776 benefit before the introduction of a local scheme. For It is unclear what the amendment would add to the example, that would require a local authority to know, clear commitment that the Government have already several years after the implementation of the reform, made. whether a person would have been entitled to claim Taken together, amendments 57, 58, 59 and 60 would council tax benefit under the old system and whether a delay the start for localising council tax reductions. My change in circumstances meant that a person would no hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth South longer be eligible at all. The Bill already provides for (Mr Hancock) asked me why I thought that should be local authorities to make transitional provision as they resisted. I believe it should be resisted because it is right see fit, following changes to their schemes or the to get the scheme in place quickly, to ensure that our introduction of a new scheme. That seems a far better programme of deficit reduction proceeds unhindered. It way of proceeding. is an essential part of the Government’s programme Amendment 67 would require authorities to publish, that that saving should be made. Any hon. Friends or as part of the scheme, the steps that they would take to other colleagues around the House who might wish to ensure that people were informed of their entitlement unravel that programme of deficit reduction need only and what assistance they would be offered. That is a look a little way across the channels—Irish or French—to sensible requirement, but paragraphs 2(1) and 2(5) of see the consequences of so doing. new schedule 1A to the Local Government Finance Act The Government are clear that this reform needs to 1992, inserted by schedule 4 to the Bill, already require be implemented in 2013, to secure the agreed savings. the authority to set out the classes of persons who are The savings from the localisation of council tax benefit entitled to a reduction, and the procedure for making will make an important contribution to our deficit an application. The provision that the amendment seeks reduction plan. I have already made the point as clearly to introduce is therefore already part of the legislation. as I can that that deficit reduction plan is essential, and that the Bill provides powers for local authorities to create other income streams by tackling discounts and 9.30 pm exemptions. There will be a possibility for them to do Local authorities will want to publicise the scheme in that, if they so choose. a manner that ensures that those eligible for support As for ensuring that the timetable is adhered to—the claim what they need to in order to avoid going into right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich arrears with their council tax. Points have been made (Mr Raynsford) raised some issues in this regard—we about the cost of publicity and of introduction. The are already working with local authorities and IT suppliers Government do not think it right to stipulate how local to identify how we can ensure that any new processes authorities should publicise the scheme; it is for them to and systems are in place for April next year. We are decide, and a one-size-fits-all set of regulations would committed to ensuring a steady flow of information to certainly place unnecessary requirements on them. Local local government on our plans for delivery and the authorities are best placed to decide how to publicise framework in which local authorities will operate. We information about their own schemes. will also look at what tools we can provide for local Amendment 68 would require a local authority to authorities to help them in their planning. consult charities and organisations that provide advice on benefits or represent older people. However, local John Healey: The Minister talked about the IT suppliers authorities already have a duty to consult other persons and working to ensure that their new systems are in who are place by April next year, but they are going to need to be ready, fully designed, tested and operational well “likely to have an interest in the scheme”. before the end of this year during the period when local The Government’s intention to protect pensioners from authorities will be consulting on and designing their any reduction in support as a result of the reform, using schemes and reassuring themselves that they can be put the powers in the Bill, has already been made clear. It in place. Is not the reality more likely to be that the has been welcomed by the shadow Secretary of State options on schemes will be restricted by the designs that for Communities and Local Government and by the the software suppliers will have ready to go? hon. Member for Warrington North, who spoke on behalf of the Opposition in today’s debate. As the Andrew Stunell: That is an important consideration system for pensioners will be prescribed at national for local authorities when they look at the speed and level, it is unclear what the benefit would be of prescribing pace of change in the schemes they devise, but I have to further consultation at local level with groups representing say that practically everything that Labour Members pensioners. To prescribe the categories of organisations have contributed to the debate has been on the basis of to be consulted would be restrictive and unnecessary. trying to preserve the existing scheme and associated Many local authorities already have good consultative costs. [Interruption.] I think that local authorities will schemes and, in any case, people are not backward in probably take a cautious approach to changing their coming forward to put their point across. local schemes in the first year. I have to say, however, that we believe it is absolutely the case that those that Amendment 71 states that the Secretary of State wish to make a more radical change will be able to do should have regard to the impact of any guidance on so. I am encouraged to hear that IT suppliers are those of pensionable and working ages, and those on considering the possible changes to existing software benefits, particularly disability benefit. Again, however, and are working with local authorities to—[Interruption.] the Government have already made clear their intention to use this guidance to set out the importance of supporting The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means work incentives through the design of local schemes. (Dawn Primarolo): Order. It is getting very noisy. If We will consider how best to ensure that local authorities Members wish to speak to each other, it would be a are aware of their duties in relation to vulnerable groups. good idea to go outside and do it. 777 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 778

Andrew Stunell: Thank you, Ms Primarolo. Division No. 447] [9.40 pm As I was saying, IT suppliers are considering possible changes to existing software and they are working with AYES local authorities. I recognise, of course, that local authorities Abbott, Ms Diane Doyle, Gemma and suppliers need as much information as possible as Abrahams, Debbie Dromey, Jack soon as possible. For that reason, we intend to publish Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Durkan, Mark draft regulations while the Bill is still before the House. Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Eagle, Ms Angela We shall shortly make available a design tool to make it Alexander, Heidi Eagle, Maria Ali, Rushanara Elliott, Julie easier for local authorities to model their case load and Allen, Mr Graham Ellman, Mrs Louise the impacts of any changes to the framework, which Ashworth, Jonathan Evans, Chris should also clarify the extent of any IT changes that the Austin, Ian Farrelly, Paul design of their scheme might require. Bailey, Mr Adrian Field, rh Mr Frank Bain, Mr William Fitzpatrick, Jim John Healey: I must say that it is welcome to hear the Balls, rh Ed Flello, Robert Minister say that the Government are committing Banks, Gordon Flint, rh Caroline Barron, rh Mr Kevin Flynn, Paul themselves to draft regulations published while the Bill Beckett, rh Margaret Fovargue, Yvonne is before the House. Will he make it clear whether that Begg, Dame Anne Francis, Dr Hywel means this House or the other House? Bell, Sir Stuart Gapes, Mike Benn, rh Hilary Gardiner, Barry Andrew Stunell: I am looking for a nod somewhere, Benton, Mr Joe Gilmore, Sheila but let us stick with this House. Betts, Mr Clive Glass, Pat Blackman-Woods, Roberta Glindon, Mrs Mary Amendment 71 states that the Secretary of State Blears, rh Hazel Goggins, rh Paul should have regard to the impact of any guidance on Blenkinsop, Tom Goodman, Helen those of pensionable and working ages and those on Blomfield, Paul Greatrex, Tom benefits, particularly disability benefits. However, the Blunkett, rh Mr David Green, Kate Government have already made clear their intention to Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Greenwood, Lilian use the guidance to set out the importance of supporting Brennan, Kevin Griffith, Nia work incentives through the design of local schemes Brown, Lyn Gwynne, Andrew and will consider how to ensure that local authorities Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hamilton, Mr David are aware of their duties in respect of vulnerable groups. Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Fabian Bryant, Chris Hancock, Mr Mike It is unclear whether amendment 71 would add to the Buck, Ms Karen Hanson, rh Mr David Government’s commitment in this regard. Burden, Richard Harris, Mr Tom There are things that councils can begin to do now to Burnham, rh Andy Havard, Mr Dai help in their preparation—in understanding the Campbell, Mr Alan Healey, rh John circumstances of those in their area who currently Campbell, Mr Gregory Hendrick, Mark claim support, in ensuring that elected members are Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hepburn, Mr Stephen aware of the decisions they need to take and in engaging Caton, Martin Heyes, David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hillier, Meg with precepting authorities such as police and fire Clark, Katy Hilling, Julie authorities. The Government have been clear that local Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodgson, Mrs Sharon authorities must ensure that they are on the front foot Clwyd, rh Ann Hoey, Kate in preparing for this reform. Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin In summary, I must recommend that the Committee Coffey, Ann Howarth, rh Mr George reject the Opposition amendment on this occasion. Connarty, Michael Hunt, Tristram Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Cooper, rh Yvette Jackson, Glenda Helen Jones: Yet again we have heard a reply of the Corbyn, Jeremy James, Mrs Siân C. most astonishing complacency from the Minister, which Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy appears to have been prepared so long before the debate Creasy, Stella Jarvis, Dan that he did not realise that he was responding to Cruddas, Jon Johnson, rh Alan amendments that my right hon. Friend the Member for Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Leeds Central was not even present to speak to. Yet Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham again we have heard him dismiss the concerns of local Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan authorities and Members, dismiss our concerns about Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan the poorest people in the poorest communities, and, in Danczuk, Simon Jowell, rh Tessa particular, dismiss concerns about those who work for Darling, rh Mr Alistair Joyce, Eric low wages and the effects that this scheme will have on David, Mr Wayne Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald them. Davidson, Mr Ian Keeley, Barbara Let me warn the Minister that he has been put up to Davies, Geraint Kendall, Liz respond to the amendments in order to provide a human Denham, rh Mr John Khan, rh Sadiq shield for the Tories in the Government, and that it will Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Lavery, Ian come back to haunt him. I wish to press amendment 66 Docherty, Thomas Lazarowicz, Mark to a vote, and I urge my colleagues to support it. Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Leslie, Chris Question put, That the amendment be made. Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lloyd, Tony Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn The Committee divided: Ayes 233, Noes 294. Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew 779 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 780

Lucas, Caroline Reynolds, Jonathan Cairns, Alun Hart, Simon Lucas, Ian Riordan, Mrs Linda Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harvey, Nick MacShane, rh Mr Denis Ritchie, Ms Margaret Carmichael, Neil Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mactaggart, Fiona Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Carswell, Mr Douglas Heald, Oliver Mahmood, Shabana Rotheram, Steve Cash, Mr William Heath, Mr David Malhotra, Seema Roy, Mr Frank Chishti, Rehman Heaton-Harris, Chris Mann, John Roy, Lindsay Chope, Mr Christopher Hemming, John Marsden, Mr Gordon Ruane, Chris Clappison, Mr James Henderson, Gordon McCabe, Steve Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Clark, rh Greg Hendry, Charles McCann, Mr Michael Sarwar, Anas Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick McCarthy, Kerry Seabeck, Alison Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hinds, Damian McClymont, Gregg Shannon, Jim Collins, Damian Hoban, Mr Mark McCrea, Dr William Sharma, Mr Virendra Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hollingbery, George McDonagh, Siobhain Sheerman, Mr Barry Crockart, Mike Hollobone, Mr Philip McDonnell, John Sheridan, Jim Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris McGovern, Jim Shuker, Gavin Davies, David T. C. Horwood, Martin McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Simpson, David (Monmouth) Howell, John McKechin, Ann Skinner, Mr Dennis Davies, Glyn Hughes, rh Simon McKenzie, Mr Iain Slaughter, Mr Andy Davies, Philip Huhne, rh Chris McKinnell, Catherine Smith, rh Mr Andrew Davis, rh Mr David Hunter, Mark Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, Angela de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian Meale, Sir Alan Smith, Nick Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Mearns, Ian Spellar, rh Mr John Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Michael, rh Alun Straw, rh Mr Jack Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Javid, Sajid Miliband, rh David Stringer, Graham Doyle-Price, Jackie Johnson, Gareth Miller, Andrew Stuart, Ms Gisela Drax, Richard Johnson, Joseph Mitchell, Austin Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Morden, Jessica Tami, Mark Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Thomas, Mr Gareth Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Morris, Grahame M. Thornberry, Emily Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel (Easington) Timms, rh Stephen Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Mudie, Mr George Trickett, Jon Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Munn, Meg Turner, Karl Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Murphy, rh Mr Jim Twigg, Derek Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi Murphy, rh Paul Vaz, rh Keith Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Murray, Ian Vaz, Valerie Fabricant, Michael Lamb, Norman Nandy, Lisa Walley, Joan Farron, Tim Lancaster, Mark Nash, Pamela Watson, Mr Tom Foster, rh Mr Don Latham, Pauline O’Donnell, Fiona Watts, Mr Dave Francois, rh Mr Mark Laws, rh Mr David Onwurah, Chi Whitehead, Dr Alan Freeman, George Leadsom, Andrea Osborne, Sandra Williamson, Chris Freer, Mike Lee, Jessica Owen, Albert Winnick, Mr David Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Dr Phillip Paisley, Ian Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Fuller, Richard Leech, Mr John Gale, Sir Roger Lefroy, Jeremy Pearce, Teresa Woodcock, John Perkins, Toby Garnier, Mr Edward Leslie, Charlotte Wright, David Qureshi, Yasmin Garnier, Mark Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Wright, Mr Iain Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Gauke, Mr David Lewis, Brandon Reed, Mr Jamie Tellers for the Ayes: George, Andrew Lewis, Dr Julian Reeves, Rachel Phil Wilson and Gibb, Mr Nick Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Reynolds, Emma Nic Dakin Gilbert, Stephen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lloyd, Stephen NOES Glen, John Lopresti, Jack Goldsmith, Zac Lord, Jonathan Adams, Nigel Birtwistle, Gordon Goodwill, Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Afriyie, Adam Blunt, Mr Crispin Graham, Richard Luff, Peter Aldous, Peter Boles, Nick Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Andrew, Stuart Bone, Mr Peter Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Bradley, Karen Grayling, rh Chris Maynard, Paul Baker, Norman Brady, Mr Graham Green, Damian McCartney, Karl Baker, Steve Brake, rh Tom Greening, rh Justine McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baldry, Tony Bray, Angie Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McPartland, Stephen Baldwin, Harriett Brazier, Mr Julian Griffiths, Andrew McVey, Esther Barclay, Stephen Bridgen, Andrew Gummer, Ben Mensch, Louise Barker, Gregory Brine, Steve Gyimah, Mr Sam Menzies, Mark Baron, Mr John Brooke, Annette Halfon, Robert Mercer, Patrick Barwell, Gavin Bruce, Fiona Hames, Duncan Metcalfe, Stephen Bebb, Guto Bruce, rh Malcolm Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mills, Nigel Beith, rh Sir Alan Buckland, Mr Robert Hammond, Stephen Milton, Anne Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, rh Mr Simon Hands, Greg Morgan, Nicky Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Harper, Mr Mark Morris, Anne Marie Bingham, Andrew Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Morris, David Binley, Mr Brian Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Morris, James 781 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 782

Mosley, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Amendment 52, in schedule 4, page 47, line 16, at end Mowat, David Soames, rh Nicholas insert— Mulholland, Greg Soubry, Anna Mundell, rh David Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline (f) the number of persons estimated to be eligible to make Munt, Tessa Spencer, Mr Mark an application, and estimated to be entitled to a Murray, Sheryll Stephenson, Andrew reduction under the scheme.’. Murrison, Dr Andrew Stevenson, John Amendment 74, line 43, at end insert— Neill, Robert Stewart, Bob ‘(8A) Before making regulations under sub-paragraph (8), the Newmark, Mr Brooks Stewart, Iain Secretary of State must consult with local authorities regarding Newton, Sarah Stewart, Rory any proposed requirements for schemes.’. Nokes, Caroline Streeter, Mr Gary Nuttall, Mr David Stride, Mel Amendment 55, page 48, line 15, at end insert— O’Brien, Mr Stephen Stunell, Andrew (d) notify all persons within their area receiving council Offord, Mr Matthew Sturdy, Julian tax benefit on or immediately following 1 April 2012, Ollerenshaw, Eric Swales, Ian of the implications of the draft scheme, including the Opperman, Guy Swinson, Jo estimated impact of that scheme on their living Ottaway, Richard Syms, Mr Robert standards.’. Paice, rh Mr James Teather, Sarah Amendment 75, line 22, leave out sub-paragraphs (4) Parish, Neil Thurso, John and (5). Patel, Priti Timpson, Mr Edward Paterson, rh Mr Owen Tomlinson, Justin Amendment 53, line 37, leave out ‘about the making Pawsey, Mark Tredinnick, David of reasonable charges’. Penrose, John Truss, Elizabeth Amendment 76, page 49, line 14, leave out sub- Percy, Andrew Turner, Mr Andrew paragraphs (2) and (3). Perry, Claire Tyrie, Mr Andrew Phillips, Stephen Uppal, Paul Amendment 77, line 28, leave out section (6). Pickles, rh Mr Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Government amendments 86 and 87. Pincher, Christopher Vara, Mr Shailesh Poulter, Dr Daniel Vickers, Martin George Hollingbery: It is a great pleasure finally to be Prisk, Mr Mark Walker, Mr Charles Pritchard, Mark able to speak to amendment 72. I have missed a Select Walker, Mr Robin Committee visit to the Netherlands to do so—my furthest Pugh, John Wallace, Mr Ben Raab, Mr Dominic trip so far has been to Manchester. Walter, Mr Robert Randall, rh Mr John Ward, Mr David It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship Reckless, Mark Watkinson, Angela today, Ms Primarolo. Let me make it clear to the Redwood, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Committee at the outset that the amendment is probing. Rees-Mogg, Jacob I do not intend to press it to a vote. My aim is to give the Reevell, Simon Webb, Steve Wharton, James Government an opportunity to clarify their thinking on Reid, Mr Alan administrative arrangements for distribution of council Robertson, Hugh Wheeler, Heather Robertson, Mr Laurence White, Chris tax reduction schemes. There is clearly some sense in Rogerson, Dan Whittaker, Craig local authorities being able to pool their sovereignty— Rosindell, Andrew Wiggin, Bill [Interruption.] Rudd, Amber Williams, Mr Mark Ruffley, Mr David Williams, Roger The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means: Russell, Sir Bob Williams, Stephen Order. The Committee needs to be a little quieter, so Rutley, David Williamson, Gavin that we can hear Mr Hollingbery moving his amendment. Sanders, Mr Adrian Willott, Jenny Sandys, Laura Wilson, Mr Rob Scott, Mr Lee George Hollingbery: I am grateful, Ms Primarolo. As Wollaston, Dr Sarah I was saying, there is clearly some sense in local authorities Selous, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Shapps, rh Grant being able to pool their sovereignty in relation to their Wright, Simon schemes to administer council tax rebates, especially in Sharma, Alok Yeo, Mr Tim Simmonds, Mark two-tier areas such as mine in Meon Valley. If one Young, rh Sir George Simpson, Mr Keith accepts that local conditions in, say, Hampshire will be Zahawi, Nadhim Skidmore, Chris at least somewhat similar, it makes sense for a uniform Smith, Miss Chloe Tellers for the Noes: scheme to be adopted by all councils in the county. That Smith, Henry James Duddridge and may well allow schemes to be run more cost-effectively: Smith, Julian Stephen Crabb for example, not only could one processing centre rather than many be used, but it would create one point of Question accordingly negatived. contact with other agencies that need to be consulted. Furthermore, assuming that fraud investigation is to be George Hollingbery: I beg to move amendment 72, run locally, such an arrangement would allow the page 5, line 26, at end insert— accumulation of expertise and critical mass that would otherwise be diffused between many offices. ‘(3A) Local authorities will have the right to pool schemes for council tax refund purposes both in terms of administrative That type of arrangement would also greatly assist arrangements and the pooling of funds.’. the achievement of a commonality of expectation and understanding of a scheme across a wider area. Several The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means right hon. and hon. Members this evening have talked (Dawn Primarolo): With this it will be convenient to about the potential for confusion in very localised council discuss the following: tax schemes. 783 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 784

John Healey: The hon. Gentleman is making a persuasive Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hands, Greg case, which is consistent with pooling principles elsewhere Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark in the Bill, and I hope he makes some headway with Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard Ministers. Does he not agree that, with only four minutes Cash, Mr William Harris, Rebecca left when we started this group of amendments, only Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon the third of 10 on the selection paper, there are some Chope, Mr Christopher Harvey, Nick Clappison, Mr James Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan important issues that we have not reached, and that if Clark, rh Greg Hayes, Mr John they are to be aired we will have to return to them on Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Oliver Report? Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris George Hollingbery: I am grateful to the right hon. Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hemming, John Gentleman for his intervention, in which he makes a Crabb, Stephen Henderson, Gordon reasonable point. However, if I may, I shall continue to Crockart, Mike Hendry, Charles develop my theme a little further. Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick I believe we would achieve a commonality of expectation Davey, Mr Edward Hinds, Damian Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark across a pooled area, such that people could begin to (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George understand what they would get from a council tax Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip rebate scheme. Simply put, we would avoid the strange Davies, Philip Hopkins, Kris situations where streets are split in such a way that there Davis, rh Mr David Horwood, Martin is one expectation of the scheme on one side of the de Bois, Nick Howell, John street and a different expectation on the other. The Bill Dinenage, Caroline Hughes, rh Simon makes no mention of such schemes, but chapter 3 of the Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huhne, rh Chris Government’s response to the consultation on localising Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy support covers the issue, and it makes the case that such Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark schemes are possible under existing powers. It would be Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian useful if the Minister briefly outlined his thoughts on Drax, Richard Jackson, Mr Stewart how that would work, and which existing powers might Duncan, rh Mr Alan James, Margot allow local authorities to draw up schemes—assuming, Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Javid, Sajid of course, that he will have the time to do so, which is Dunne, Mr Philip Johnson, Gareth Ellis, Michael Johnson, Joseph unlikely. Ellison, Jane Jones, Andrew Even if legislation allows such schemes to be put Elphicke, Charlie Jones, Mr David together, it might be useful for there to be a standard, Eustice, George Jones, Mr Marcus approved scheme, produced by Government, to reduce Evans, Graham Kawczynski, Daniel cost still further. Evans, Jonathan Kelly, Chris Evennett, Mr David Kirby, Simon 10 pm Fabricant, Michael Knight, rh Mr Greg Farron, Tim Kwarteng, Kwasi Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, 10 January). Foster, rh Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor The Chair put forthwith the Questions necessary for Francois, rh Mr Mark Lancaster, Mark the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time Freeman, George Latham, Pauline (Standing Order No. 83D). Freer, Mike Leadsom, Andrea Fullbrook, Lorraine Lee, Jessica Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Fuller, Richard Lee, Dr Phillip The Committee divided: Ayes 305, Noes 227. Gale, Sir Roger Leech, Mr John Division No. 448] [10 pm Garnier, Mr Edward Lefroy, Jeremy Garnier, Mark Leslie, Charlotte Gauke, Mr David Letwin, rh Mr Oliver AYES George, Andrew Lewis, Brandon Adams, Nigel Boles, Nick Gibb, Mr Nick Lewis, Dr Julian Afriyie, Adam Bone, Mr Peter Gilbert, Stephen Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Aldous, Peter Bradley, Karen Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lilley, rh Mr Peter Andrew, Stuart Brady, Mr Graham Glen, John Lloyd, Stephen Bacon, Mr Richard Brake, rh Tom Goldsmith, Zac Lopresti, Jack Baker, Norman Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert Lord, Jonathan Baker, Steve Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard Loughton, Tim Baldry, Tony Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Luff, Peter Baldwin, Harriett Brine, Steve Gray, Mr James Macleod, Mary Barclay, Stephen Brooke, Annette Grayling, rh Chris Main, Mrs Anne Barker, Gregory Browne, Mr Jeremy Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Baron, Mr John Bruce, Fiona Greening, rh Justine McCartney, Karl Barwell, Gavin Bruce, rh Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCrea, Dr William Bebb, Guto Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Beith, rh Sir Alan Burns, Conor Gummer, Ben McPartland, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Burns, rh Mr Simon Gyimah, Mr Sam McVey, Esther Berry, Jake Burrowes, Mr David Halfon, Robert Mensch, Louise Bingham, Andrew Burt, Lorely Hames, Duncan Menzies, Mark Binley, Mr Brian Byles, Dan Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mercer, Patrick Birtwistle, Gordon Cairns, Alun Hammond, Stephen Metcalfe, Stephen Blunt, Mr Crispin Campbell, Mr Gregory Hancock, Mr Mike Mills, Nigel 785 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 786

Milton, Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Begg, Dame Anne Glass, Pat Morgan, Nicky Skidmore, Chris Bell, Sir Stuart Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Anne Marie Smith, Miss Chloe Benn, rh Hilary Goggins, rh Paul Morris, David Smith, Henry Benton, Mr Joe Goodman, Helen Morris, James Smith, Julian Betts, Mr Clive Greatrex, Tom Mosley, Stephen Smith, Sir Robert Blackman-Woods, Roberta Green, Kate Mowat, David Soames, rh Nicholas Blears, rh Hazel Greenwood, Lilian Mulholland, Greg Soubry, Anna Blenkinsop, Tom Griffith, Nia Mundell, rh David Spencer, Mr Mark Blomfield, Paul Gwynne, Andrew Munt, Tessa Stephenson, Andrew Blunkett, rh Mr David Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Sheryll Stevenson, John Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hamilton, Fabian Murrison, Dr Andrew Stewart, Bob Brennan, Kevin Hanson, rh Mr David Neill, Robert Stewart, Iain Brown, Lyn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Newmark, Mr Brooks Stewart, Rory Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Mr Tom Newton, Sarah Streeter, Mr Gary Brown, Mr Russell Havard, Mr Dai Nokes, Caroline Stride, Mel Bryant, Chris Healey, rh John Nuttall, Mr David Stunell, Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark O’Brien, Mr Stephen Sturdy, Julian Burden, Richard Hepburn, Mr Stephen Offord, Mr Matthew Swales, Ian Burnham, rh Andy Heyes, David Ollerenshaw, Eric Swinson, Jo Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg Opperman, Guy Syms, Mr Robert Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Ottaway, Richard Teather, Sarah Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Paice, rh Mr James Thurso, John Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Paisley, Ian Timpson, Mr Edward Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Parish, Neil Tomlinson, Justin Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Patel, Priti Tredinnick, David Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram Paterson, rh Mr Owen Truss, Elizabeth Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Pawsey, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Penrose, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Percy, Andrew Uppal, Paul Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Perry, Claire Vaizey, Mr Edward Cooper, rh Yvette Jarvis, Dan Phillips, Stephen Vara, Mr Shailesh Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, rh Alan Pickles, rh Mr Eric Vickers, Martin Creagh, Mary Johnson, Diana Pincher, Christopher Walker, Mr Charles Creasy, Stella Jones, Graham Poulter, Dr Daniel Walker, Mr Robin Cruddas, Jon Jones, Helen Prisk, Mr Mark Wallace, Mr Ben Cryer, John Jones, Mr Kevan Pritchard, Mark Walter, Mr Robert Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Pugh, John Ward, Mr David Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Raab, Mr Dominic Watkinson, Angela Cunningham, Tony Joyce, Eric Randall, rh Mr John Weatherley, Mike Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Reckless, Mark Webb, Steve Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Redwood, rh Mr John Wharton, James Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wheeler, Heather Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq Reevell, Simon White, Chris David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Whittaker, Craig Davidson, Mr Ian Lavery, Ian Robertson, Hugh Wiggin, Bill Davies, Geraint Lazarowicz, Mark Robertson, Mr Laurence Williams, Mr Mark Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Rogerson, Dan Williams, Roger Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Stephen Dobson, rh Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Rudd, Amber Williamson, Gavin Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Ruffley, Mr David Willott, Jenny Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Lucas, Caroline Russell, Sir Bob Wilson, Mr Rob Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Rutley, David Wollaston, Dr Sarah Doran, Mr Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Sanders, Mr Adrian Wright, Jeremy Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Sandys, Laura Wright, Simon Dromey, Jack Malhotra, Seema Durkan, Mark Mann, John Scott, Mr Lee Yeo, Mr Tim Selous, Andrew Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Young, rh Sir George Shannon, Jim Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Zahawi, Nadhim Shapps, rh Grant Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Sharma, Alok Tellers for the Ayes: Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Simmonds, Mark Norman Lamb and Evans, Chris McClymont, Gregg Simpson, David James Duddridge Farrelly, Paul McDonagh, Siobhain Field, rh Mr Frank McDonnell, John NOES Fitzpatrick, Jim McFadden, rh Mr Pat Flello, Robert McGovern, Jim Abbott, Ms Diane Austin, Ian Flint, rh Caroline McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Abrahams, Debbie Bailey, Mr Adrian Flynn, Paul McKechin, Ann Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Bain, Mr William Fovargue, Yvonne McKenzie, Mr Iain Alexander, rh Mr Douglas Balls, rh Ed Francis, Dr Hywel McKinnell, Catherine Alexander, Heidi Banks, Gordon Gapes, Mike Meacher, rh Mr Michael Ali, Rushanara Barron, rh Mr Kevin Gardiner, Barry Meale, Sir Alan Allen, Mr Graham Beckett, rh Margaret Gilmore, Sheila Mearns, Ian 787 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 788

Michael, rh Alun Sharma, Mr Virendra New Clause 11 Miliband, rh David Sheerman, Mr Barry Miller, Andrew Sheridan, Jim PAYMENT OF ADDITIONAL GRANT Mitchell, Austin Shuker, Gavin Morden, Jessica Skinner, Mr Dennis ‘The Secretary of State shall be required to pay an additional grant to a local authority if, at the end of any financial year, the Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Slaughter, Mr Andy total expenditure incurred by the authority under any scheme Morris, Grahame M. Smith, rh Mr Andrew approved pursuant to Schedule 4 of this Act is greater than the (Easington) Smith, Angela amount of grant received from the Secretary of State to fund the Mudie, Mr George Smith, Nick scheme. The amount paid to the authority shall be the difference Munn, Meg Spellar, rh Mr John between the sum originally received and the total cost to the Murphy, rh Mr Jim Straw, rh Mr Jack authority of the scheme.’.—(Helen Jones.) Murphy, rh Paul Stringer, Graham Brought up. Murray, Ian Stuart, Ms Gisela Nandy, Lisa Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. Nash, Pamela Tami, Mark The Committee divided: Ayes 225, Noes 309. O’Donnell, Fiona Thomas, Mr Gareth Division No. 449] [10.14 pm Onwurah, Chi Thornberry, Emily Osborne, Sandra Timms, rh Stephen AYES Owen, Albert Trickett, Jon Abbott, Ms Diane Dakin, Nic Pearce, Teresa Turner, Karl Abrahams, Debbie Danczuk, Simon Perkins, Toby Twigg, Derek Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Darling, rh Mr Alistair Qureshi, Yasmin Vaz, rh Keith Alexander, rh Mr Douglas David, Mr Wayne Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Vaz, Valerie Alexander, Heidi Davidson, Mr Ian Reed, Mr Jamie Walley, Joan Ali, Rushanara Davies, Geraint Reeves, Rachel Watson, Mr Tom Allen, Mr Graham Denham, rh Mr John Reynolds, Emma Watts, Mr Dave Austin, Ian Dobbin, Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Whitehead, Dr Alan Bailey, Mr Adrian Dobson, rh Frank Riordan, Mrs Linda Williamson, Chris Bain, Mr William Docherty, Thomas Ritchie, Ms Margaret Winnick, Mr David Balls, rh Ed Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Banks, Gordon Doran, Mr Frank Rotheram, Steve Woodcock, John Barron, rh Mr Kevin Doyle, Gemma Roy, Mr Frank Wright, David Beckett, rh Margaret Dromey, Jack Roy, Lindsay Begg, Dame Anne Durkan, Mark Wright, Mr Iain Ruane, Chris Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Ms Angela Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Tellers for the Noes: Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Maria Sarwar, Anas Phil Wilson and Benton, Mr Joe Elliott, Julie Seabeck, Alison Jonathan Ashworth Betts, Mr Clive Ellman, Mrs Louise Blackman-Woods, Roberta Evans, Chris Question accordingly agreed to. Blears, rh Hazel Farrelly, Paul Blenkinsop, Tom Field, rh Mr Frank Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Blomfield, Paul Fitzpatrick, Jim Blunkett, rh Mr David Flello, Robert Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Flint, rh Caroline Schedule 4 Brennan, Kevin Flynn, Paul Brown, Lyn Fovargue, Yvonne Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Francis, Dr Hywel AMENDMENTS RELATING TO COUNCIL TAX REDUCTION Brown, Mr Russell Gapes, Mike SCHEME Bryant, Chris Gardiner, Barry Amendments made: 86, page 51, line 8, schedule 4, Buck, Ms Karen Gilmore, Sheila leave out sub-paragraphs (1) and (2). Burden, Richard Glass, Pat Burnham, rh Andy Glindon, Mrs Mary 87, page 51, line 40, at beginning insert ‘In Schedule 2 Campbell, Mr Alan Goggins, rh Paul (administration),’.—(Andrew Stunell.) Campbell, Mr Ronnie Goodman, Helen Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to. Caton, Martin Greatrex, Tom Chapman, Mrs Jenny Green, Kate Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clark, Katy Greenwood, Lilian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Griffith, Nia Clwyd, rh Ann Gwynne, Andrew Clause 10 Coaker, Vernon Hamilton, Mr David Coffey, Ann Hamilton, Fabian Connarty, Michael Hancock, Mr Mike POWER TO SET HIGHER AMOUNT FOR LONG-TERM Cooper, Rosie Hanson, rh Mr David EMPTY DWELLINGS Cooper, rh Yvette Harman, rh Ms Harriet Amendment made: 17, in clause 10, page 7, line 17, at Corbyn, Jeremy Harris, Mr Tom end insert— Creagh, Mary Havard, Mr Dai Creasy, Stella Healey, rh John ‘( ) In section 13(3) (amounts which may be reduced by Cruddas, Jon Hendrick, Mark regulations) after “section 11, 11A” insert “, 11B”.’.—(Andrew Stunell.) Cryer, John Hepburn, Mr Stephen Cunningham, Alex Heyes, David Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Cunningham, Mr Jim Hillier, Meg Bill. Cunningham, Tony Hilling, Julie Clauses 11 to 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill. Curran, Margaret Hodgson, Mrs Sharon 789 Local Government Finance Bill31 JANUARY 2012 Local Government Finance Bill 790

Hoey, Kate Nandy, Lisa Bingham, Andrew Garnier, Mr Edward Hopkins, Kelvin Nash, Pamela Binley, Mr Brian Garnier, Mark Howarth, rh Mr George O’Donnell, Fiona Birtwistle, Gordon Gauke, Mr David Hunt, Tristram Onwurah, Chi Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Irranca-Davies, Huw Osborne, Sandra Boles, Nick Gilbert, Stephen James, Mrs Siân C. Owen, Albert Bone, Mr Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Jamieson, Cathy Pearce, Teresa Bradley, Karen Glen, John Jarvis, Dan Perkins, Toby Brady, Mr Graham Goldsmith, Zac Johnson, rh Alan Qureshi, Yasmin Brake, rh Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert Johnson, Diana Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Bray, Angie Graham, Richard Jones, Graham Reed, Mr Jamie Brazier, Mr Julian Grant, Mrs Helen Jones, Helen Reeves, Rachel Bridgen, Andrew Gray, Mr James Jones, Mr Kevan Reynolds, Emma Brine, Steve Grayling, rh Chris Jones, Susan Elan Reynolds, Jonathan Brooke, Annette Green, Damian Jowell, rh Tessa Riordan, Mrs Linda Browne, Mr Jeremy Greening, rh Justine Joyce, Eric Ritchie, Ms Margaret Bruce, Fiona Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Bruce, rh Malcolm Griffiths, Andrew Keeley, Barbara Rotheram, Steve Buckland, Mr Robert Gummer, Ben Kendall, Liz Roy, Mr Frank Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam Khan, rh Sadiq Roy, Lindsay Burns, rh Mr Simon Halfon, Robert Lammy, rh Mr David Ruane, Chris Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Lavery, Ian Ruddock, rh Dame Joan Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen Lazarowicz, Mark Sarwar, Anas Byles, Dan Hands, Greg Leslie, Chris Seabeck, Alison Cairns, Alun Harper, Mr Mark Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr Virendra Campbell, Mr Gregory Harrington, Richard Love, Mr Andrew Sheerman, Mr Barry Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harris, Rebecca Lucas, Caroline Sheridan, Jim Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon Lucas, Ian Shuker, Gavin Carswell, Mr Douglas Harvey, Nick Mactaggart, Fiona Skinner, Mr Dennis Cash, Mr William Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mahmood, Shabana Slaughter, Mr Andy Chishti, Rehman Hayes, Mr John Malhotra, Seema Smith, rh Mr Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Heald, Oliver Mann, John Smith, Angela Clappison, Mr James Heath, Mr David Marsden, Mr Gordon Smith, Nick Clark, rh Greg Heaton-Harris, Chris McCabe, Steve Spellar, rh Mr John Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Hemming, John McCann, Mr Michael Straw, rh Mr Jack Coffey, Dr Thérèse Henderson, Gordon McCarthy, Kerry Stringer, Graham Collins, Damian Hendry, Charles McClymont, Gregg Stuart, Ms Gisela Cox, Mr Geoffrey Herbert, rh Nick McDonagh, Siobhain Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian McDonnell, John Tami, Mark Crouch, Tracey Hoban, Mr Mark McFadden, rh Mr Pat Thomas, Mr Gareth Davey, Mr Edward Hollingbery, George McGovern, Jim Thornberry, Emily Davies, David T. C. Hollobone, Mr Philip McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Timms, rh Stephen (Monmouth) Hopkins, Kris McKechin, Ann Trickett, Jon Davies, Glyn Horwood, Martin McKenzie, Mr Iain Turner, Karl Davies, Philip Howell, John McKinnell, Catherine Twigg, Derek de Bois, Nick Hughes, rh Simon Meacher, rh Mr Michael Vaz, rh Keith Dinenage, Caroline Huhne, rh Chris Meale, Sir Alan Vaz, Valerie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Mearns, Ian Walley, Joan Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hunter, Mark Michael, rh Alun Watson, Mr Tom Donaldson, rh Mr Jeffrey M. Huppert, Dr Julian Miliband, rh David Watts, Mr Dave Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Miller, Andrew Whitehead, Dr Alan Doyle-Price, Jackie James, Margot Mitchell, Austin Williamson, Chris Drax, Richard Javid, Sajid Morden, Jessica Winnick, Mr David Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Duncan, rh Mr Alan Johnson, Joseph Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Andrew Morris, Grahame M. Woodcock, John (Easington) Dunne, Mr Philip Jones, Mr David Wright, David Mudie, Mr George Ellis, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Wright, Mr Iain Munn, Meg Ellison, Jane Kawczynski, Daniel Murphy, rh Mr Jim Tellers for the Ayes: Elphicke, Charlie Kelly, Chris Murphy, rh Paul Phil Wilson and Eustice, George Kirby, Simon Murray, Ian Jonathan Ashworth Evans, Graham Knight, rh Mr Greg Evans, Jonathan Kwarteng, Kwasi NOES Evennett, Mr David Laing, Mrs Eleanor Fabricant, Michael Lancaster, Mark Adams, Nigel Baldwin, Harriett Farron, Tim Latham, Pauline Afriyie, Adam Barclay, Stephen Foster, rh Mr Don Leadsom, Andrea Aldous, Peter Barker, Gregory Francois, rh Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Freeman, George Lee, Dr Phillip Bacon, Mr Richard Bebb, Guto Freer, Mike Leech, Mr John Baker, Norman Beith, rh Sir Alan Fullbrook, Lorraine Lefroy, Jeremy Baker, Steve Beresford, Sir Paul Fuller, Richard Leslie, Charlotte Baldry, Tony Berry, Jake Gale, Sir Roger Letwin, rh Mr Oliver 791 Local Government Finance Bill 31 JANUARY 2012 792

Lewis, Brandon Russell, Sir Bob Question accordingly negatived. Lewis, Dr Julian Rutley, David The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Sanders, Mr Adrian Lilley, rh Mr Peter Sandys, Laura Bill, as amended, reported. Lloyd, Stephen Scott, Mr Lee Bill to be considered tomorrow. Lopresti, Jack Selous, Andrew Lord, Jonathan Shannon, Jim Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On a point Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I know that Mr Speaker Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok is very keen to defend the rights of Back Benchers. Macleod, Mary Simmonds, Mark Main, Mrs Anne Simpson, David Tomorrow, as you know, we will debate Lords amendments Maynard, Paul Simpson, Mr Keith to the Welfare Reform Bill. The first amendment, on McCartney, Karl Skidmore, Chris employment and support allowance, deals with cancer McCrea, Dr William Smith, Miss Chloe patients and others. Obviously, I do not want to go into McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Smith, Henry its merits or otherwise now. I have checked with the McPartland, Stephen Smith, Julian Clerks, and I am concerned because, whatever time that McVey, Esther Smith, Sir Robert debate starts, it must end at half-past two. After Prime Mensch, Louise Soames, rh Nicholas Minister’s questions and the ten-minute rule Bill, there Menzies, Mark Soubry, Anna would be an opportunity to debate the amendment for Mercer, Patrick Spencer, Mr Mark nearly two hours. However, if there is a statement or Metcalfe, Stephen Stephenson, Andrew other parliamentary business, a matter that concerns Mills, Nigel Stevenson, John many of our constituents could be debated for just half Milton, Anne Stewart, Iain an hour. I therefore ask you, Madam Deputy Speaker, Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Rory Morris, Anne Marie Streeter, Mr Gary whether anything can be done to give at least nearly two Morris, David Stride, Mel hours to debating such a crucial issue. Morris, James Stunell, Andrew Mosley, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): The hon. Mowat, David Swales, Ian Gentleman, who is an experienced Member, is correct Mulholland, Greg Swinson, Jo to say that Mr Speaker takes defending Back Benchers’ Mundell, rh David Syms, Mr Robert rights very seriously. However, he also knows that Munt, Tessa Teather, Sarah timetabling Bills is not a matter for the Chair, but for Murray, Sheryll Thurso, John the House. I am sure that all those present will bear his Murrison, Dr Andrew Timpson, Mr Edward comments in mind. Neill, Robert Tomlinson, Justin Newmark, Mr Brooks Tredinnick, David Newton, Sarah Truss, Elizabeth Business without Debate Nuttall, Mr David Turner, Mr Andrew O’Brien, Mr Stephen Tyrie, Mr Andrew Offord, Mr Matthew Uppal, Paul DELEGATED LEGISLATION Ollerenshaw, Eric Vaizey, Mr Edward Opperman, Guy Vara, Mr Shailesh Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ottaway, Richard Vickers, Martin Order No. 118(6)), Paice, rh Mr James Walker, Mr Charles Paisley, Ian Walker, Mr Robin LOCAL GOVERNMENT Parish, Neil Wallace, Mr Ben That the draft City of Liverpool (Mayoral Referendum) Order Patel, Priti Walter, Mr Robert 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be Paterson, rh Mr Owen Ward, Mr David approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Pawsey, Mark Watkinson, Angela Penrose, John Weatherley, Mike The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Percy, Andrew Webb, Steve Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Perry, Claire Wharton, James Wednesday 1 February (Standing Order No. 41A). Phillips, Stephen Wheeler, Heather Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Pickles, rh Mr Eric White, Chris Order No. 118(6)), Pincher, Christopher Whittaker, Craig That the draft City of Nottingham (Mayoral Referendum) Poulter, Dr Daniel Wiggin, Bill Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be Prisk, Mr Mark Williams, Mr Mark approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Pritchard, Mark Williams, Roger The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Pugh, John Williams, Stephen Raab, Mr Dominic Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Williamson, Gavin Wednesday 1 February (Standing Order No. 41A). Randall, rh Mr John Willott, Jenny Reckless, Mark Wilson, Mr Rob Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Redwood, rh Mr John Wollaston, Dr Sarah Order No. 118(6)), Rees-Mogg, Jacob Wright, Jeremy Reevell, Simon Wright, Simon Reid, Mr Alan VALUE ADDED TAX Yeo, Mr Tim Robertson, Hugh That the Value Added Tax (Land Exemption) Order 2012 Young, rh Sir George Robertson, Mr Laurence (S.I., 2012, No. 58), dated 11 January 2012, a copy of which was Rogerson, Dan Zahawi, Nadhim laid before this House on 11 January, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Rosindell, Andrew Tellers for the Noes: Question agreed to. Rudd, Amber Norman Lamb and Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ruffley, Mr David Stephen Crabb Order No. 118(6)), 793 Business without Debate31 JANUARY 2012 Business without Debate 794

CORPORATION TAX EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS That the draft Enactment of Extra-Statutory Concessions Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 11 January, be Order No. 119(11)), approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Question agreed to. ENERGY EFFICIENCY Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That this House takes note of European Union Document Order No. 118(6)), No. 12046/11, relating to a draft Directive on energy efficiency and repealing Directives 2004/8/EC and 2006/32/EC; and supports EUROPEAN UNION the Government’s view in welcoming the overall level of ambition That the draft European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Republic of the Directive, whilst rejecting unnecessary levels of prescription, of Korea Framework Agreement) Order 2012, which was laid and seeking full compatibility with key United Kingdom policies.— before this House on 5 December, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) (Mr Dunne.) Question agreed to. Question agreed to. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Order No. 119(11)),

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PASSENGER NAME RECORDS That the draft City of Leeds (Mayoral Referendum) Order That this House takes note of European Union Documents 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be No. 17697/09, a draft Council Decision on the conclusion of the approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Agreement between the European Union and the United States Madam Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of of America on the processing and transfer of Passenger Name the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred Record (PNR) data by air carriers to the United States Department of Homeland Security (2007 PNR Agreement), No. 17429/11, a until Wednesday 1 February (Standing Order No. 41A). draft Council Decision on the signature of the Agreement between Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the USA and the EU on the use and transfer of PNRs to the Order No. 118(6)), United States Department of Homeland Security, No. 17430/11, a draft Council Decision on the conclusion of the Agreement LOCAL GOVERNMENT between the USA and the EU on the use and transfer of PNRs to That the draft City of Bristol (Mayoral Referendum) Order the United States Department of Homeland Security, No. 9821/11, 2012, which was laid before this House on 5 December, be a draft Council Decision on the signature of the Agreement approved.—(Mr Dunne.) between the EU and Australia on the processing and transfer of Madam Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of PNR data by air carriers to the Australian Customs and Border the Question being challenged, the Division was deferred Protection Service and No. 9823/11, a draft Council Decision on until Wednesday 1 February (Standing Order No. 41A). the conclusion of the Agreement between the EU and Australia on the processing and transfer of PNR data by air carriers to the Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Australian Customs and Border Protection Service; supports the Order No. 118(6)), Government’s decision to exercise its right, in accordance with the protocol on the position of the United Kingdom, to take part LOCAL GOVERNMENT in the adoption and application of the Proposal for Council That the draft Local Authorities (Conduct of Referendums) Decisions on the Signature and Conclusions of the Agreement in (England) Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House relation to the United States of America; and endorses the decision on 5 December, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) taken on 23 August in relation to Australia.—(Mr Dunne.) Question agreed to. Question agreed to. 795 31 JANUARY 2012 Early Intervention 796

Early Intervention experiences raised stress levels, he becomes tolerant of his own stress level. You or I, Madam Deputy Speaker, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House might be excited by a scary episode of “Doctor Who”, do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) but somebody with a high tolerance of their own stress level might need to go out to stab somebody to get the 10.31 pm same level of excitement. Being permanently left to Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): scream therefore has a profound impact on a baby. Last year’s riots were unprecedented in their violence The second impact is even more amazing. When a and in the damage done to our society. We saw headlines baby is born, his brain is barely developed; he simply such as “Mob Rule” and “Flaming Morons”. I hope has the amygdala, with the fight or flight instinct. never to see such things again. We owe a debt of Between six and 18 months old, the frontal cortex—the gratitude to the police, who had to clear up under such social part of the brain—starts to develop and puts on difficult circumstances. its peak growth spurt. That growth is literally stimulated No one made those young people loot and steal and by a loving relationship between baby and carer. Playing cause so much damage and fear, and there can be no games such as peek-a-boo or gazing into baby’s eyes excuse. The punishments meted out were right and I and saying, “I love you” and “Aren’t you beautiful?” fully support them, but since those days the headlines literally stimulates the development of the baby’s brain. have changed. We are not talking about the riots and Conversely, as we saw from the appalling situation in the problems caused by those people, but asking why Romanian orphanages, the orphans, who had no human they did it. What caused that disorder? Is it moral contact at all, literally suffered brain damage; they were decline, that the young have no respect, the benefit unable to communicate in any way, because they had society or something more fundamental? had so little human contact. I want to prevent that type of appalling activity from becoming the norm in Britain or any other society, as I Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con): I congratulate my am sure all hon. Members do. To do that, we need to hon. Friend on the debate and on all the sensible things look seriously at prevention. I want to put the case that she is saying with great passion and clear knowledge. prevention is not just kinder than cure but incredibly Does she agree that it is imperative if children born into cheaper. the most terrible circumstances are to be adopted, we make sure they are adopted as quickly as possible, given Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP): I congratulate the excellent evidence she has placed before us this the hon. Lady on securing this debate. Does she welcome evening? the “searching for answers” conference, which will commence tomorrow under the auspices of His Royal Andrea Leadsom: I thank my hon. Friend for that Highness the Prince of Wales, and which will be about point, and I will come to it later. the riotous situation that occurred in this land? Is that a If someone does not love their baby, and they do not welcome opportunity to try to get some of the important bond properly with him in those first two crucial years, answers to the problems that she is describing in the they are literally impairing their capacity to lead a House tonight? normal life. The sad truth is that research shows that 40% of children in Britain are not securely attached by Andrea Leadsom: The hon. Gentleman makes a good the age of five. That does not mean that they all go on point. Anything that helps to prevent a repeat is to be to become criminals, psychopaths, sociopaths, paedophiles welcomed. or drug addicts, but it does mean that their capacity to I want to focus on a topic that we do not often discuss deal with the things life throws at them and the problems in the Chamber: the importance of love. Love in a they will encounter is much lessened. They are less prevention context begins with conception. It needs to likely to be able to cope with holding down a job, go on throughout the baby’s life, but the critical period making friends, and forming and keeping a relationship. is conception to the age of two years. There is a very At the extreme end, a baby will have been severely important reason for that: a loved baby who has his neglected or abused, and that is where we will find needs met will generally learn that the world is a good sociopaths. Sociopaths are not born, but made by their place and that people are generally kind. That baby will earliest experiences in the first two years of life. grow up expecting to be able to form secure bonds, Before we all go out and throw up our hands in make friends and hold down a job, and will generally despair, I want to make the case that there is a huge have more capacity to lead a normal life. amount that can be done. Things do not have to be like On the other hand, the baby who is neglected or this. If we as a society committed to making the very abused, or inconsistently treated, suffers two profound earliest intervention to provide the support needed for impacts. First, the baby who is left to scream is unable families, we could do so much in the first two years of to control or regulate his or her feelings. When a baby life, when the baby’s brain has the ability to reach its full knows something is wrong, he does not know whether it potential. We could turn things around and do great is because he is too hot, too cold, bored, tried or things. hungry—he just knows something is wrong, and he The Oxford Parent Infant Project—a charity that I looks to an adult carer to sooth his feelings, relax him chaired for nine years, and of which I have been a and get him back off to sleep. trustee for 12 years—does precisely that work in When a baby is left to scream all the time, the stress Oxfordshire. In the past few months, I have launched a hormone in the baby’s body—cortisol—rises to a level sister charity, the Northamptonshire Parent Infant Project, where it harms his immune system, and that harm can to do the same work. We work together with families— be permanent. What is more, if the baby constantly normally the mum, but it can be the dad or the 797 Early Intervention31 JANUARY 2012 Early Intervention 798

[Andrea Leadsom] educate people much more on the importance of early attachment and the need for that early bond. Oxpip, for grandparents—and the baby to help the carers understand, example, trains social workers, health visitors and midwives, first, their own feelings about caring and parenting, and on the evaluation forms almost everyone says, “If and, secondly, the baby’s needs. We literally enable the only I had known this sooner.” adult to love the baby; we reintroduce them to each In the case of baby Peter, I remember thinking, “How other, with astonishing results. could any mother allow someone to stub out a cigarette When Oxpip and Norpip get their referrals, the parents on her baby? How poorly attached was she to that are desperate—they are about to commit suicide, infanticide baby!”, but then my next thought was, “What if he had or both. We have referrals from health workers, midwives survived?”All the talk was about how physically damaged and social services, which, in Oxfordshire, certainly he was, but what about how mentally damaged he was? often use Oxpip as their emergency service. If they have This is the problem. We have to educate people, particularly tried everything else, they will come to us to see what we in the perinatal, infant health care and mental health can do. As I said, the results have been astonishing. An care professions on the crucial importance of early enormous amount can be done, therefore, to reverse attachment. this cycle of deprivation. The problem is that so often a That requires, first, proper training for social workers, failure to attach in those early years is the result of the health visitors and midwives on understanding early parents’ own terribly unhappy lives. attachment itself. We need proper training of the sort that Oxpip provides. Secondly, sadly we often find that Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): In Northern Ireland, schools say to a young girl, “Well, if you’re not going to an organisation called Home Start—it probably covers make it as a hairdresser, have you thought of child the whole of the United Kingdom—provides that level care?”Too many nurses, therefore, are very young people— of support when it is needed most. I know of many often girls—who themselves have not had a happy ladies in my constituency and across the whole of childhood and who are looking for love with somebody Northern Ireland who benefited greatly from Home else’s baby, but of course it does not work that way. To Start. Is that an example of what we need to do everywhere be a proper nursery worker, somebody needs to have the in the United Kingdom? empathy skills, not simply the right national vocational qualification or GCSEs. That is incredibly important. Andrea Leadsom: I completely agree that Home Start does some excellent work—in my constituency, it is Thirdly, on another call to action for the Government, actually based directly below Norpip—and we work we desperately need to ensure that children themselves together with it. But I am talking about psycho-therapeutic understand this point. The right hon. Member for support for the most difficult early relationships. Often Birkenhead (Mr Field) has talked of children entering it is parents’ own unhappy lives that give them problems school who do not recognise their own name unless it is bonding with their babies. yelled at them with real hatred—and probably with some stinking epithet attached at the end. The point is Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I not that the child is not school-ready but that massive hugely congratulate my hon. Friend on the mature way damage has already been done. If we do not intervene in which she is discussing issues that politicians often until school age, therefore, we are just dealing with the find hard to discuss. Does she agree that it is often consequences—but that is not prevention; it is firefighting. easier to give children this incredibly important love if What I would like to see, therefore, is all children in both parents are loving and committed to each other? their science GSCE being taught about early brain That can be hugely helpful. development—being taught that the brain is not fully developed at birth and that the earliest relationship will Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend makes a good have profound consequences for the healthiness of the point. Of course, as I said, it is often parents’ own brain as people grow up. unhappy lives that cause them to struggle to bond with Finally—this is the other call to action—the protocols their baby. For example, a mother who did not form a in nursery care often mean that someone will do the bond with her own mum as a baby will struggle to bond nappies for the morning run, while someone else will do with her own baby. Her capacity to love her baby will be the noon run and someone else the after-lunch run. impaired. Often, relationship or marital breakdown, That has to stop. Nurseries need to understand that for extreme poverty, drug abuse, perhaps domestic violence attachment to take place, there must be a bond between and other such issues make it incredibly difficult for the the nursery worker and the baby, so that that person can mum and the family to find the love that the baby make a genuine contribution to the baby’s attachment desperately needs. Often, the baby becomes the last ability, rather than detracting from it. Nursery protocols person whom anybody thinks about. can therefore be either extraordinarily helpful or In truth, of course, early intervention and early extraordinarily harmful in improving the quality of attachment is no respecter of class or wealth. One can attachment. be extremely poor and extremely securely attached to There is an awful lot of understanding about the one’s baby, but equally one can be extremely wealthy, issue now. Most people would accept that early intervention with all the privileges it brings, and bring up the least is crucial, but when I go and talk at conferences, or even happy child in our society. It simply does not go with when I talk to colleagues in the House, people understand the turf. “early intervention” to mean different things. I have had I urge the Government, in the light of our correct councillors saying, “We do early intervention to prevent decision to turn to localism in the early intervention people from having house fires. We go round and advise agenda, to allow local communities, in as many ways as them on smoke detectors, and so on.” Other people say, possible, to make decisions for themselves. We must “Of course, early intervention is stopping teenage girls 799 Early Intervention31 JANUARY 2012 Early Intervention 800 getting pregnant.” Others think that early intervention retrospectively, when somebody’s behaviour is difficult, is about sports clubs to stop boys joining gangs. The but there is certainly good correlative evidence that the terminology has become so confused that people do not lack of a warm bond from the beginning can result in really understand what early intervention is. All those serious behavioural problems later. other interventions have their place. They are all critical The issues that the hon. Lady has raised go to the in repairing the damage that has been done. However, if heart of a number of matters that are a priority for the we are serious about creating a better society for our Government in the areas of family policy, health policy children and our children’s children, “early years prevention” and child development. We have many of the systems in must mean just that: from conception to the age of two. place that will begin to pick up on those issues. This is We can do no better than that for our children. about universal and targeted services. She made the powerful point that issues of attachment are no respecter 10.46 pm of class or income, which is precisely why we need children’s centres that are universal, but that can focus The Minister of State, Department for Education on those who are in the most need. They must have a (Sarah Teather): I congratulate the hon. Member for universal front door through which anyone can walk, South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on giving and they must not stigmatise those people who walk in an absolutely fascinating speech. I always respect what and ask for the services. They must then focus their she says, and I am always grateful for her contributions resources on the most difficult and challenging problems, on these issues. It is good to hear someone who has so including those that the hon. Lady mentioned. That is much interest, expertise and passion speak on this subject. exactly what we have been trying to achieve. I share her passion for this subject, which is incredibly important. Regarding the statement that we published in the summer, a number of things will be key if we are going Early intervention is a hugely important issue, and to get this right. First, it is about identifying need early the term refers to many of the things that she described. and putting in place the support to help the families However, I should say that I am the Minister with that need it. Frankly, the first problem that we need to responsibility for early years, so I have a particular bias get over is that of data sharing. As I have said, this towards ensuring that early intervention really focuses problem goes to the heart of issues covered by the on early years issues. The point about attachment is Department for Education and the Department of Health, gathering pace in debate, as well as in the knowledge and data sharing is one of the big nubs that the previous among professionals on the ground. The work that Government tried to get to grips with. My colleague the Oxpip has done, along with the hon. Lady’s work in Under-Secretary of State for Health and I are determined continuously raising this issue, is important in ensuring to pick up on this issue, because until the information that professionals understand the importance of attachment about which families are most in need can be passed and that the Government consider it when we develop between the different professionals, it will be difficult to our early years policies. put in place the help that we know is available. I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady’s points about Over the past six months, I have seen some really the importance of warm parenting and bonding. Those good examples of where the services are working really issues go to the heart of many of the things that we have well, and it is worth taking a minute to talk about them. been trying to do over the last 18 months. She will be The most exciting of the examples was in Manchester. I aware that I and the Under-Secretary of State for visited the Clayton Sure Start children’s centre just after Health, the hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), the riots to find out about the work that it had been who has responsibility for public health, jointly published doing in this area. As part of a drive to improve the a document in the summer called “Families in the integration of services with GPs in the area with the Foundation Years”, which covers many of the things most deprived wards, the GPs themselves had arranged that she picked up. There is a lot more work to do in this for junior doctors who were training to become GPs to area—some of it is just beginning—but some of the spend time at children’s centres to see the services that themes that the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire were being delivered. Among the messages that they picked up are being addressed by what is very much were trying to get across was that, when a woman work in progress, across both the Department for Education presents with post-natal depression, it is not just the and the Department of Health. In a sense, the things woman whom they need to treat. They need to look that she has talked about go right to the heart of the beyond the patient and to understand that a newborn intersection between those two Departments. Indeed, it child is also involved and that, unless they get the was a toss-up as to whether it would be me or my services right, there could be a risk of attachment colleague the Minister with responsibility for public disorder later. That is not to say that every woman who health responding this evening. We both take such presents with post-natal depression will have a child issues incredibly seriously, which is why we are collaborating who ends up with attachment disorder, but GPs need to on much of the work on the nought-to-five age group. be aware of these issues. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire outlined The hon. Lady made a point about training for the impact that insecure attachment can have on professionals. Health visitors are trained to understand neurodevelopment and, in particular, the ways in which these things, as are early years workers, although I think it affects levels of cortisol and the long-lasting impact that there is much that we can do to improve on that. I that this can have on brain development. That is worth will come back to that in a moment. Many GPs have emphasising. Not all the research is concrete enough for very little knowledge of child development and attachment us to be able to tell in retrospect whether somebody’s issues. That was a really exciting project on social difficulties are a result of attachment issues, but there is prescribing, and I will be fascinated to see the results. I good evidence that stress in early years results in attachment hope that many other areas will follow Manchester’s issues later. It is not always possible to bring that back example, and learn just what can be done. 801 Early Intervention31 JANUARY 2012 Early Intervention 802

[Sarah Teather] the FNP system. There may be other ways of supporting those women. It is important for children’s centres to Similarly, some really good work has been done in build on the best evidence available, but they must also Hull, involving an agreement to share information between be left free to innovate and develop their own work—based local health services and children’s centres. The project on what is known works. has been led by one inspirational woman who is absolutely Let me provide an example—outreach work. We are determined to ensure that the information was shared. trying to improve the quality of the work done on The result of the agreement was that health visitors and outreach and family support. At the moment, there is a family outreach workers were not duplicating each other’s great variety of types of work on outreach. We have work. They were sharing information and getting to the been working with the National College for School families in need quickly. They were also able to put in Leadership to develop some leaders in this area so we place the kind of support that the children’s centres can draw together the evidence of best practice and offer, to help parents to understand the need to speak to disseminate it to encourage all areas to adopt the elements their children in a particular way, and to understand that we know work. That is not to say that every about the warm parenting styles and firm parenting programme has to be badged or that everybody has to styles that are important right from the beginning. call their family support worker—sometimes called The hon. Lady will be aware that the Government something slightly different. We know that certain key have committed to significantly increasing the number components of this work make a difference, so the key of health visitors. We plan to increase the health visitor components of best practice will make a difference to work force by 4,200 by 2015 to ensure that the healthy families in difficulty. child programme is fully and consistently implemented. I have only a few minutes left, so I would like to pick At the moment, because of the patchy availability of up some other points raised in the debate. The hon. health visitors, not everyone gets the support that they Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) need. Ensuring that that service is well linked to the raised a point about relationship support. I think that is work that we are doing with children’s centres is at the critical for both the reasons the hon. Gentleman suggested, heart of what we are trying to do. but also because when parents are in conflict, it is Similarly, the Government have doubled the amount incredibly damaging for children as they grow up. That of funding available for the family nurse partnership—a is the main reason why the Government are providing programme that works intensively with particularly support for relationships—formal face-to-face relationship vulnerable young mothers and young parents to make support, but we have also provided money for telephone sure that they get support right from conception, as the counselling. This is an important feature of parenting hon. Lady said, so that we do not pick up problems programmes that work well. If we are to support parenting, several months down the line when some of the problems we know that it is key to support the parents’ relationship have already begun to cement. It is an important and get them to talk to one another. They must have programme, which we know makes an enormous difference some support to ensure that the relationship is solid; to families at what is often a particularly difficult time. parents should have the skills to negotiate with one The nurses are very experienced and receive additional another, not just with the child. Working with only one training in motivational interviewing, neurological parent in such circumstances tends to be less effective. It development, attachment, mental health and strength-based may not have no good results, but the results will be working in a therapeutic relationship. Those are important much better if a component of relationship support is skills, which help to ensure that the nurses are able to included. support mothers at that time. Last September the Government announced a trial of a new offer of universal parenting support, which Andrea Leadsom: I agree that the family nurse partnership will take place in three areas for parents with a child is excellent, but does the Minister agree with me that it under five. That was a response to evidence that parents’ is entirely possible to come up with other strategies that relationships with their children was critical to the would be less expensive and less prescriptive, including home learning environment—the hon. Member for South different therapies that might be more appropriate for Northamptonshire mentioned children aged between certain types of parents rather than a prescribed particular nought and two, but in fact the relationship is critical programme that costs the taxpayer a lot of money to throughout, and is one of the most important factors implement? that determine how well a child does—but also a response to what parents tell us, which is that they want more Sarah Teather: As the hon. Lady says, the family support in this regard. nurse partnership is one of our more expensive programmes. We will begin the trial, and we will see what happens. It is focused on very young mothers, and the doubling We will see whether parents take up the offer, whether it of the programme has been aimed primarily at expanding is popular, and whether it has an impact on parenting the help available to young, mostly teenage mothers style. It is one of the things that we will need to evaluate who we are know are vulnerable. That is not to say, at a later stage. We will want to know whether it deals however, that other forms of help cannot also be extremely with some of the points that have been raised this effective. The hon. Lady speaks with great passion evening about harsh parenting styles that have an impact about the work of the charity with which she is involved. on children’s development and on discipline, but we Children’s centres have other models for helping to also want to test the theory that if we provide this— support women, particularly in areas where data sharing is working well and someone might be brought into a 11.1 pm children’s centre before they give birth. It does not House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order necessarily mean that the support they get is through No. 9(7)). 191WH 31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 192WH

on the fate of the Falkland Islanders; it is their own Westminster Hall right to decide where their sovereignty lies, and that will not change. Tuesday 31 January 2012 David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): After all that has gone on in our recent history, does my hon. Friend agree that it is regrettable that the US State [MR DAVID CRAUSBY in the Chair] Department wants to classify the Falkland Islands as the Malvinas Islands? Falkland Islands Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Guy Opperman: I have great respect for President be now adjourned.—(Michael Fabricant.) Obama, and he is truly a groundbreaking politician and a leader of men; he is taking things forward tremendously 9.30 am in America. On this particular issue, however, I do not Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): It is a pleasure to respect his decision, and am most concerned that it serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. I thank appears to have been made without full assessment of colleagues for attending the debate, given Select Committees the UN rules on self-determination. and various other activities; I will take interventions. In 1982, the Falkland Islands war saw the loss of Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I thank 255 British troops; also lost were 650 Argentine troops my hon. Friend for securing the debate. Britain asserted and three female islanders. Today is a good day to begin her sovereignty over the Falklands in the 1830s, about with remembering each and every one whose lives were 50 years after she had been forced out of her sovereign lost. We remember the families who lost their husbands, territory in certain parts of north America. Despite the the children who lost their fathers and those who were US stance on the Falklands, one very much doubts left with severe disabilities because of their wounds. whether the US Government regard their administration There is no such thing as a good war, and people died in of the east coast of America as simply de facto. 1982 because politics, Governments and individual people failed them. Our job in this House is to ensure that that Guy Opperman: One could ask whether the Americans does not happen again. I also welcome the efforts made will return Hawaii or other places such as Diego Garcia on behalf of the islanders by the various Foreign Office to the original occupants. Ongoing, I do not believe that departments to improve the lot of the islanders. President Obama’s holiday home will stop being part of The purpose of the debate is fundamentally fourfold. America. First, we need to reiterate the House’s united position that the Falkland Islands has our full support in every James Wharton (Stockton South) (Con): My hon. way. Secondly, I wish to see a self-determination law, Friend referred to Hawaii and its original occupants, confirming that all overseas territories with a settled but one of the differences that I am sure he will confirm population have an unambiguous right to remain British. is that, in the Falkland Islands, the original occupants Thirdly, I wish the Minister to update the House on the were not Argentine. In fact, throughout the whole history efforts of our diplomats who are fighting the trade of the islands, only about three people from mainland blockade that has been ongoing for some time. Finally, Argentina have lived there. Does that not prove the I will attempt a brief analysis of the legitimacy of the point, but from a different angle? Argentine arguments under the various United Nations conventions and the agreements between the countries. Guy Opperman: I entirely agree, of course. We could Many would argue that the 1982 conflict happened get into a detailed and lengthy historical analysis of the because a weak Argentine junta decided to try and origins of Argentina and its various provinces, as well regain popularity at home. The junta lost the war as of the inhabitants of the Falkland Islands. It is worth and power. The underequipped and poorly trained remarking, however, that the ninth generation of the Argentines were clearly men governed by lambs. people of the Falkland Islands was recently born on the Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Actually, some of islands. Although the population is immigrant, that is the Argentines were not that poorly trained. The Mirage also true in Argentina, and I will come to that at a later pilots who flew in across San Carlos water and took out stage. our ships were, in everyone’s estimation, not only brave Returning to my point about sovereignty, it is not up but well trained. The Argentines, therefore, were not to the House of Commons or Great Britain to give the entirely poorly trained—some of the marines were not Falklands away; it is the inalienable right of the Falkland bad either. Islanders to decide where sovereignty lies. That will not change today, tomorrow or for however long they choose Guy Opperman: It is a brave man who tells the to remain part of Great Britain. colonel whether troops were good or indifferent at a particular time, and I bow to my hon. Friend’s greater Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South knowledge. Pembrokeshire) (Con): Would my hon. Friend agree Thomas Mann, however, was right when he said: that, if there were greater and less aggressive integration “War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace.” between the Argentine and Falkland Islands populations, Among the almost 3,000 inhabitants of the Falklands, whether at the education or business level and over a there is an overwhelming desire to remain a British period of 30 to 40 years, or perhaps longer, the hostilities overseas territory. It is not up to Great Britain to decide would dissipate to some extent? 193WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 194WH

Guy Opperman: All of us would like to see the of the common fisheries policy? We can work jointly individual countries getting on to a greater degree, and with such nations, when we cannot do so around our one of my themes in the debate is to make it crystal own waters. clear that we regard Argentina, fundamentally, as a potential friend. It would be good if trade relations were better, fishing were better harmonised or hydrocarbons Guy Opperman: I never thought that in a debate work was done together. At present, however, the Argentine about the Falkland Islands I would become such an stance is blocking that route. If the Argentine President expert on squid and European fish embargoes, or that I is claiming a “hearts and minds” approach, I am sad to would be trying to respond to an acknowledged expert say that her argument is deeply flawed. on all fish matters, but I agree with my hon. Friend and accept entirely that there is great scope for the two countries to work together. If they do not, the story of Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): We have said that some European waters will, sadly, be repeated in the there is a need to increase and improve trade relations, south Atlantic, because fish stocks will decline. but what about the 13,000 people who were murdered and disappeared in Argentina between 1976 and 1983, Argentina claims sovereignty of the islands on an under the regime that fought the Falklands war? Is it ongoing basis. Others may discuss in detail the historical not time for a human rights inquiry into that? Let us argument, which is weak, but what would happen if look at the bad things as well as the good things. Argentina retook the islands? Does it propose to throw the native islanders out? Does it propose to expel them Guy Opperman: With no disrespect to the hon. by force from their homes and the land that they have Gentleman, I will not go down that route. One of the tended and harvested, or to move them to a distant few good things to emerge from the Falklands war was corner of one island? Let us be in no doubt that the return of democracy to Argentina in 1983. It is annexation of any small, peaceful and prosperous neighbour entirely right that there have been various analyses of has no place in the 21st century. Whether that is done by the history of Argentina but, with respect, it is not for negotiation or conquest, it equals colonisation, and me to lecture the Argentines on that history and on occupation by a foreign power. what they were involved with. Instead of looking to the Many islanders trace their history, as others have past, I hope that we can look to a future of co-operation said, back to the 1840s. They are men and women who between these two countries, which already have plenty were born on the Falkland Islands and have lived there of trade and many common grounds. The Foreign for generations, had children there and made their lives Secretary, 10 days ago, wrote: there. Like most countries in Latin America, including “There are many areas on which we can cooperate—on joint Argentina, the population has grown through a natural management of fish stocks, on hydrocarbon exploration, and on flow of migration. The Falkland Islands now constitutes strengthening air and sea links between the Falklands and South a nation of immigrants who have developed their own America, as we used to do in the 1990s and ought to be able to be distinctive culture and identity. For Argentina to deny able to so again.” its right to self-determination is to question its claim to that self-same right. It would be surprising if the Argentines Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): handed their land back to the Indian tribes who lived in My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech and a the country before they arrived, and I doubt that that good case, but does he agree that one of the problems will happen. I will not attempt to pronounce the names with the uncertainty currently surrounding the Falkland of the Indian tribes who lived in Argentina before the Islands is that it is extraordinarily difficult for business immigrants settled there. people to get on and make sensible business decisions? I draw his attention to a British oil exploration company, On the legal argument, the Falkland Islanders’ rights which I know, that wants to invest but is unwilling to do are recognised by international law. I never thought that so until the political uncertainty has been clarified. I would cite favourably and support the Lisbon treaty, but I am pleased that it confirms that the European Guy Opperman: I accept that there is a need for Union recognises the islands as a “’full” associated greater economic certainty, but we must understand territory, just like our other overseas territories, in part that the islands have a strong economy and a profitable 4 of the treaty on the functioning of the European business community, and that they are effectively self- Union. Apparently, our decision to sign the Lisbon sustaining. I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the treaty upset the Argentines, and some would argue that 1995 agreement between the Argentine and British they joined a large club. On this issue, I am a confirmed Governments on oil exploration. In 1995, they signed a Europhile—I knew that the Lisbon treaty was good for deal that identified a discrete area where there was to be something. The truth is that we should be proud that a joint hydrocarbon exploration. In 2007, the Argentines group of islands thousands of miles from our shores, scrapped that deal to share oil found in that area. They and fully 700 km from Argentina’s, wants to remain effectively ripped it up, and there has been some uncertainty part of our great nation, and shares our values and on development of the way forward on hydrocarbons culture. and oil, but I believe that a robust approach from our Government will provide a better future for companies James Wharton: As my hon. Friend has touched on that want to invest there. the European dimension and with the Minister in his place, is this an appropriate opportunity to reinforce the Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Does view of many hon. Members that our consistent approach my hon. agree that we are in a superb position to work to the people of the Falkland Islands should apply to jointly with Argentina on fisheries around the Falkland the people of Gibraltar, who must not see their sovereignty Islands because it does not have the complicated interference negotiated behind their backs? 195WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 196WH

Guy Opperman: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for will be there to do a job, but his destiny as a future King raising that point. We are no longer a colonial power. and the man to whom the Islanders will one day owe Those days are, rightly, distant history. As such, we will their allegiance, should not go unacknowledged in Her never force any dependent territory to remain part of Majesty’s diamond jubilee year. our country, but we will also not let down a dependent territory. Let us take Scotland as an example. I would Guy Opperman: Argentina has described the royal not, of course, call Scotland a dependent territory, visit as an inflammatory act, which is ridiculous. The notwithstanding the subsidy and the inequity of the gentleman involved, who happens to be the future king, Barnett formula, but the Scottish referendum is a prime is going as a search and rescue pilot. Were he to save the example of the fundamental principle that it is for the life of some hapless Argentine sailor, I hope that Argentina native people to decide their fate. Rightly, we will always would be equally as grateful as, I am sure, the individual welcome and defend those who wish to remain part of saved by the presence of the Duke would be. I support Great Britain. the fact that the Duke of Cambridge has been asked to go and that he intends to do just that. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I thank I pay tribute to Able Seaman Derek Armstrong from the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is being generous. my constituency who was a pupil at Prudhoe community Is it not vital that Argentina recognises the determination high school. At 9 o’clock this morning I met with of this Government and this Parliament to defend the students from that school who are visiting the House of right of the Falklands people to remain British? Commons today—all hon. Members know of schools that visit the House in order to understand its history. Guy Opperman: I am pleased that there is a cross-party On 22 May 1982, Derek Armstrong was 22 years old selection of Members in the Chamber early on this and serving on HMS Ardent. He was sadly killed in the Tuesday morning when they have many other matters attack that sunk that ship, and Prudhoe community to attend to. We are presenting a united front across high school now presents a Derek Armstrong memorial parties and throughout the House to show adamant award each year to the best sportsperson at that school. support for the individual rights of people who live in It was amazing to see the students this morning as that the Falkland Islands. I welcome my hon. Friend’s comment, living history, and the relevance of the Falklands war to and the support from his party. individuals and to their school, was explained to them. I want a self-determination law. It is well known that When the Duke of Cambridge goes to the Falkland the Foreign and Commonwealth Office—to be fair, it Islands later this year, I regret that he will find an island has done excellent work in support of the Falkland that is under a degree of trade blockade. The Argentine Islands—is planning to introduce a White Paper in 2012 President has upped that blockade by taking the slightly covering all aspects of the Government’s policies on the unbelievable step of blocking ships that are flying the overseas territories. That is pending. I want all overseas Falkland Islands flag from their ports, and she has territories with a settled population to have an unambiguous persuaded other members of the south American trading right to remain British, and to be defended from oppression bloc, which includes Brazil and Uruguay, to do the in the absence of a majority voting for secession. All the same. A ship is not allowed access if it shows the 293,000 people in the Caribbean islands of Anguilla, so-called “defaced”Falkland Islands red ensign. Provided Bermuda and Montserrat and the south Atlantic islands it removes its flag, however, and denies its true origins, it of St Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, and the is given access. Such denying of a recognised international plucky 48 people who live a precarious existence on ship that is carrying a recognised international flag runs Pitcairn Island, need to know that self-determination contrary to international law and is, I suggest, a protectionist will always be recognised by this country. and retrograde step. There is no justification for such petty actions that are done only to intimidate a small Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con): My hon. Friend is civilian population and, with respect, such things are right to put self-determination at the centre of his beneath the Argentine people. Let us be blunt: such speech. Some 255 British personnel died when trying to actions merely harden the resolve of this House, strengthen ensure that self-determination prevailed for the Falkland that of the Islanders, and do nothing to endear the Islanders. Does he agree that anything other than self- Argentines to the Islanders. It is hardly about hearts determination would be an affront to the memory of and minds. those men and women? Are we in 2012 really going down a route that sees Guy Opperman: My hon. Friend makes his point civilised countries make ever increasing efforts to block eloquently. I pay tribute to all our servicemen and free trade? This is about protectionism. Will the Minister women who are serving overseas, protecting our interests update the House on the efforts made by our diplomats and striving to preserve other people’s freedoms. Most to end the trade blockade? I accept that the Foreign importantly, I pay tribute to the thousands of troops, Office has done—and continues to do—a great deal to led by the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, who are working support the Falkland Islands over the past few years, on the Islands at this time. I know that many hon. but I hope that it will do yet more to increase support, Members here today represent constituencies with regiments both financially and in terms of manpower, in the that served or are still serving in the Falkland Islands. Foreign Office itself and on the Falkland Islands. I will attempt to address the principle of self- Penny Mordaunt: People in Portsmouth whom I represent determination, which is set out in article 1.2 of the charter would want no hesitation in marking the 30th anniversary of the United Nations, and article 1 of the international of the British victory in the Falklands war, and the covenant on civil and political rights. The Argentines posting of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge continue to say that we should negotiate on sovereignty, to the Falkland Islands should not be underplayed. He but about what? 197WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 198WH

[Guy Opperman] Guy Opperman: Such a measure would confirm the rights of those individual Islanders who live in overseas Let us analyse the claims. In 1965, UN resolution territories that have a settled population, and show the 2065 noted United Kingdom’s strong intention to recognise self- “the existence of a dispute between the Governments of Argentina determination. There are references to that in the various and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland United Nations conventions that have considered such concerning sovereignty over the said Islands.” matters repeatedly, and in what are called colonisation It invited the Governments involved committees that sit from time to time. Such a measure “to proceed without delay with the negotiations...with a view to would send out a strong message and signal from this finding a peaceful solution to the problem, bearing in mind the country that the self-determination of individual peoples, provisions and objectives of the Charter of the United Nations where they choose to remain part of Great Britain, is and of General Assembly UN Resolution 1514 (XV) and the paramount. interests of the population of the Falkland Islands.” As I was saying, the future of the Falkland Islands UN resolution 2065 must therefore be read in line with does not lie with Argentina or with Britain as such, and UN resolution 1514, which states: such arguments are a futile war of words. The decision “The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination rests, and will always rest, with the settled inhabitants of and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human the Falkland Islands. Gone are the days when colonial rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an possessions could be disposed of by giving away power, impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.” regardless of the views of the inhabitants. Instead, let us It adds—and this is key—that all peoples have celebrate the unique history and culture of a small “the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely island people that still choose to remain British—and determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, so they shall, suitably supported by this country. That social and cultural development.” position, and their choice in the matter, is non-negotiable. The argument that anything other than self-determination is supported by the UN agreements is completely wrong. 9.59 am Self-determination is enshrined within the resolutions Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): It is a pleasure and supports our case. to speak in a debate under your stewardship, Mr Crausby. UN resolution 1514 continues: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy “All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed Opperman) for securing this important debate at this against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to critical juncture for the Falkland Islands. I could not exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, reasonably expect to be allowed to set foot back in my and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected…Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national Gosport constituency if I did not take part in the unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible debate, because the history of my town is indelibly with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United linked in many ways with that of the Falkland Islands. Nations.” We have many veterans of the Falklands war. Indeed, I I could continue with an analysis of the various UN share my constituency office with the indomitable Derek conventions and protocols, but under any interpretation, “Smokey” Cole, who runs the Falklands Veterans the argument supports the right to self-determination Foundation and who was responsible in part for raising for the Falkland Islanders. the money to build Liberty lodge in the Falkland Islands. Thirty years after the Falklands war, we should be Even the iconic Gosport ferry is operated by Falkland celebrating the culture of those special islands and Islands Holdings. We therefore have a very strong link investing in them in a variety of ways. We should also be to the Falklands. promoting the fantastic tourism opportunities they could As we approach the 30th anniversary of the Falklands provide. The Mercosur countries of the south American war, there should be cause for joy in many ways. The bloc are our friends, just as we would like Argentina to Islanders should be able to celebrate their freedom, safe be. We wish President Fernandez a full recovery from in the knowledge that their right to self-determination her operation. I am an MP from the north-east and my was protected by this country and always will be. The local football team, Newcastle United, is led by one servicemen, many of whom lost so much, should remember Argentine and includes another, and those players are the conflict secure in the belief that their sacrifices were revered by thousands of people who support that team. not in vain. In no way is Argentina our enemy; we wish to be This commemoration is marred by disappointment, trading partners and friends, and to take the relationship given that it is taking place in the face of Argentine forward. This world has so much strife, but I say to the aggression. The Islanders are suffering increased hostility Argentines: let us work together for prosperity, not fall and blocks on trade from neighbouring countries, while apart as fools. Argentina continues to misrepresent the situation on The Argentine Government must understand that the world stage. I do not intend to recount again the the future of the Islanders does not lie with Argentina. challenges that Britain and the Islanders face and that my hon. Friend so eloquently and fully outlined. Instead, Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I agree entirely I want to underline what I see as the most vital point in with what the hon. Gentleman says about the right to today’s debate—the Islanders’ right to determine their self-determination, and his analysis of how those rights own future should be absolutely respected by Britain, are enshrined by the UN. I understood, however, that Argentina and the rest of the international community. he was calling for such a measure to be encapsulated in British law. He has said that we need a law of self- Bob Stewart: I intervene at this stage just to make one determination for the overseas territories, but he has point. The Falkland Islands are defended by hugely not explained why he feels that that is needed as an capable royal naval assets at the moment. It is no secret add-on measure. that the Typhoon, one of the best multi-role aircraft in 199WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 200WH the world, operates from the all-weather airstrip. I will to speak up for the Royal Navy and for Gosport. I am not go into the Army assets deployed. Let us be clear delighted that she is serving as chairman of the sub- and send a message from this Chamber today—keep committee of the all-party group on the armed forces, your hands off the Falklands; they are British and they of which I am chairman. In that capacity, she is looking will remain British. after the Royal Navy and doing a very good job, too. I thank her for that. Caroline Dinenage: My hon. Friend, as always, makes a very strong and valid point. A number of us in the I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Chamber were in the Falklands last year and got to Hexham (Guy Opperman), who has laid out with meet many of our brave service personnel who work barristeresque detail and clarity the case for the continuing daily to keep the Falklands safe and independent. independence and right to self-determination of the Falkland Islands. I will not attempt to repeat or to The sacrifices and memories of the war are indelibly disagree with anything that he said, which was absolutely marked on the fabric of my constituency. Gosport’s role right. I will expand on it a little, but without the learned in the conflict was significant, with a great number of qualities that he was able to bring to his contribution. sailors and submariners coming from the town. Indeed, the Admiral of the Fleet, Lord Fieldhouse, is a local My hon. Friend was right to start by paying tribute to boy.The town proudly commemorates that in the Falklands the 255 British servicemen whose bodies lie in cemeteries memorial garden. in the Falklands to this day. I think that that was the last This year, we will again pay tribute in Gosport to war in which the bodies of servicemen were not returned those who served and, in 2005, were honoured with the to the United Kingdom. In remembering them and the freedom of the borough. As their Member of Parliament, sacrifice that they made for the freedom and independence I feel immense pride for what my constituents sacrificed of the Falklands Islands, one should also remember the for people living thousands of miles away from them. very many servicemen who came home but who suffer, They were brought together by their desire to be British. because of the terrible injuries that they sustained as a Ultimately, both then and now, the inhabitants of the result of their service, to this day. It was a great pleasure Falkland Islands want to be British. With not a single recently to welcome Simon Weston to Wootton Bassett Islander fighting to renounce its status as a British town hall to turn on the Christmas lights in the high dependent territory, neither the British nor the Argentines street. One need only think of the sacrifice and the have any right to dictate their fate. efforts that Simon Weston and others have made to help servicemen like themselves. As I have mentioned, I was fortunate enough to witness for myself the powerful connection that the Of course, in Wiltshire, we are very fortunate to have Islanders feel with Britain last year, when I visited the the home of Help for Heroes and, in Tedworth, the Falklands with the armed forces parliamentary scheme. excellent home for servicemen injured in war, which is in It is a remarkably beautiful place, yet one in which the the process of being completed and which I visited last scars of war are still very apparent. Minefields are still week. At a time such as this, it is terribly important not cordoned off. On Mount Tumbledown, where some of only that we remember the 255 servicemen who gave the battle took place, there is an Argentine bunker with their lives for the freedom of the Falkland Islanders, but personal belongings still in it. that we think about and make efforts to help the very many servicemen—52,000 altogether in the United Unquestionably, however, the most striking aspect of Kingdom—who will suffer for the rest of the lives as a the trip was the regard in which the Islanders held those result of the service that they have given. British who fought for them. At the memorial site at Bluff cove for the 48 people killed when Royal Fleet In that context, I will, if I may, make a slight deviation Auxiliary Sir Galahad was attacked, I bumped into to my own constituency. I am thinking particularly of veterans from HMS Fearless, two of whom were from the servicemen from RAF Lyneham, as it was. Sadly, my constituency. When I got over the shock of meeting thanks to the previous Government, it is no longer so far away from home people who were my neighbours, RAF Lyneham; it is to become a cross-service training they told me of the experiences that they had had depot. In those days, the Hercules fleet was based at during their visit to the Falklands. When they had gone RAF Lyneham and performed a magnificent service in to pay in restaurants, their bills were waived. When they ferrying people up and down to Ascension Island and had gone to hand over their fare in a taxi, the taxi driver onwards to the Falklands. had said, “No charge.”Everywhere they went, the ongoing Also in my constituency, we were delighted last Thursday gratitude of the Islanders 30 years later for their role in to give the freedom of the town of Chippenham to securing freedom was indelibly marked in every aspect 9 Supply Regiment, the Royal Logistic Corps, which is of what they did. the largest regiment in the British Army. Colonel Bob, It is that freedom that we are again called upon to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), safeguard today. I reiterate the desire expressed by my might be interested to hear that 9 Supply Regiment, hon. Friend the Member for Hexham to see the House based at Hullavington, was given the freedom of united in full support of the Islanders and I urge the Chippenham. Its predecessor also made significant Minister to commit to a self-determination law confirming contributions in supplying all that was needed during the right of all our overseas territories to remain British the great conflict 30 years ago this year. for as long as they want to. The thrust of the debate today is plain. People in dependent territories and, indeed, elsewhere according 10.5 am to the United Nations, must have the right of self- Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): Thank you, determination. There can no question about that whatever. Mr Crausby, for chairing the debate so well. I pay Most of the wars that we have fought in the past tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport 100 years have been in the interests of freedom and (Caroline Dinenage), who never misses an opportunity of self-determination. It is right that people should be 201WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 202WH

[Mr James Gray] a good thing, too. It is a shame we could not have this debate on Thatcher day, the day on which she visited able to say for themselves whom they wish to run their the Falkland Islands six months or so after the war was country. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham over. We should remember the part that she—a great mentioned, that principle lies behind the current debate woman—played in maintaining the freedom and about a referendum in Scotland, although that is beyond independence of the Falkland Islands. Let us not forget the scope of this debate. it. I do not like “The Iron Lady”. It is not a particularly It is right that people should be able to say that they tasteful thing to have done. On an occasion such as this wish to remain one way or another. I suggest that if we it is right that we should pay tribute to the great challenged the 3,000 people who currently live in the Margaret Thatcher for the wonderful work that she did Falklands to do so, my right hon. Friend the Foreign in preserving the freedom and independence of the Secretary would receive 3,000 letters tomorrow morning people of the Falkland Islands. indicating that every single one of them wished to The question whether there is a risk of military remain British, to retain the British passport, to be part intervention in the Falklands has already been touched of Great Britain and to be a dependent territory of the on. I do not believe that there is a risk, or that the United Kingdom. There is no question whatever about Argentines are foolish enough even to contemplate the unanimity and strength of desire of the people of doing anything of the sort. I very much agree with my the Falklands to do that. hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham that the quality With that background, it is only right that our nation and strength of the defence that we have in the should send the clearest possible messages to the Argentine Falklands—my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport Government that in no circumstances will we countenance saw the evidence when she visited with the armed forces anything like military action towards the Falklands. I parliamentary scheme last year—is such that no one, must say in passing that military action against the whether the Argentines or anyone else, would possibly Falklands is extraordinarily unlikely. There is not the consider it. remotest possibility that the Argentines will consider a replay of the war. None the less, they are choosing at I have a couple of minor concerns about the outlying this time for political reasons to make sabre-rattling islands. I am very much involved with South Georgia, noises, suggesting that they might do so. We should say which is of course the place where the Argentines first that we will defend the Falklands to the last man—of landed all those years ago. To this day, it remains course we would; there is no question about it, and it exposed to some degree. It is of course a quite remote is impossible to imagine we would not. However, what is place, entirely populated by rats, which we are doing more important than that is what lies behind it, which our best to eradicate at the moment. It is a place that we is that we should be ready to say firmly and clearly to have to keep our eye on to ensure that no intervention is the Argentines—in saying this, we should echo it with possible there. The Argentines have also made some messages to other parts of the world—that we do not foolish remarks about Antarctica. It is covered by the believe it is right to say that the Falklands are part of treaty and is no part of Argentina. We should preserve Argentina, or to use the name the Malvinas. Just saying the international nature of Antarctica from any possible that and just making those noises undermines the right encroachment by the Argentines or anyone else. There to self-determination of the people of the Falklands. It are not only diplomatic reasons, but important commercial should not be allowed under international law. We reasons for that. Mention has been made of oil, and should make it plain to them that we will not allow Rockhopper is a fine Wiltshire oil company, which is them to continue to do it. currently considering what it can do in the south Atlantic. Of course there are all sorts of ways in which we I am delighted to help in any way that I can to ensure could persuade the Argentine Government of the wisdom that its rights of exploration—if, indeed, it decides to of that view. They depend on us for all kinds of things. use them—are preserved against a possible commercial They want a sensible relationship with the rest of the objection by the Argentines or anyone else. world. The rude noises that they make about the Falklands Our forces in the Falklands, as has been said, are should form an important part of negotiations that second to none. They are ready to repel any boarder. they might have with us about other things. It is outside However, I have one concern. This matter was raised in the scope of this debate, but we heard this morning the Chamber on Thursday, during the defence debate. about strange remarks from Spain about Gibraltar’s By the end of the current strategic defence review, we independence and freedom. What we say in this debate shall have an Army of 82,000 people. In many parts of about the Falklands is exactly mirrored in our approach the world, and under many definitions, that is not an to the independence and freedom of the people of army but a defence force. The number above which a Gibraltar, who have the right to decide whether they force is considered to be an army is normally 100,000. want to remain British—I am certain, having visited Our Army is now the smallest that we have had since recently, that they do, to a gigantic extent. We must say the Crimean war. Our Navy has been decimated and the to the Government of Spain, no matter what our RAF has been cut in half. If there were to be an relationship may be, that precisely what we did in the encroachment today of the kind that happened before, Falklands we would do with regard to Gibraltar, if they we would not be able to produce a taskforce as we did were to be foolish enough to tread on our toes in that then, because we simply do not have the resources. As I way. We should reiterate the principle of independence said in Thursday’s debate, that is entirely wrong. If we and self-determination. have a moral duty as a nation, whether in the Falklands, In congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Gibraltar or elsewhere in the world, we must have the Hexham on calling the debate, I have only one slight resources to carry it out. I fear that the strategic defence regret. He may not realise that to this day 10 January is and security review has resulted in a defence force for celebrated in the Falkland Islands as Thatcher day—and this country that is not sufficient to carry out the tasks 203WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 204WH that the Foreign Office requires. The Minister may want Thirty years on, the Falklands Islands is still, quite to consider whether the Foreign Office could make rightly, being protected by British troops. It is regrettable stronger representations to the Treasury about the amount that the US State Department referred to the Falklands of money available for the defence of the realm, so that as the Malvinas. Coming from a shipping family, I was if we ever have to, we can once again send a taskforce of enlightened to learn that racketeering in world trade is the kind that we are remembering today. still going on against Britain in that sphere of the globe. We are sending a clear message to the people of the We have even had to drop the red ensign, which I find Falklands, and to the United Nations, the United States insulting as an English man, never mind as a Member and the rest of the world, that we believe that the people of Parliament. of the Falklands have every right to self-determination. We must look to the future. There is oil in the region, The people of the Falklands must be allowed to decide although I have no idea whether that has anything to do their future, and we will use military force if necessary— with the fact that Argentina has started rattling sabres certainly military defensive force—to ensure that that again. The oil, which might explain this reawakening of happens. However, we should send a stronger message interest in the Falklands Islands, is hard to get at and that we are determined to do the same elsewhere in the extremely difficult to drill and mine for. The nitty gritty world. We are determined that people’s right to make of this debate is people. Nine generations of people who up their minds about their future, a free and independent have settled and lived in the Falklands want to be part liberal economy and democracy are the things that our of the British people; they are the British people. As my nation stands for. We demonstrated that we stood for hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) them during the Falklands war, and we stand for them so powerfully stated, the Falkland Islands is British. We elsewhere in the world; but to do so we need sufficient shall defend the Falkland Islands just as we shall defend defence forces and investment. any other area of the globe that we represent. The islanders want to stay with us. We protect them and we 10.17 am are trading prosperously from their islands. Such facts David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): It speak more about our people, our sovereignty, their is a privilege to speak under your chairmanship, sovereignty and this Parliament. Mr Crausby. I want to thank my room mate, my hon. I would like to have powerfully summed up this Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), for speech by saying how we would defend the Falkland this important debate. As I take every opportunity to Islands, but my hon. Friend, the colonel, has already say, I like to think I taught him everything he knows. said it for me and in a better way than I ever could. It is Many of today’s speeches have been poignant to me. absolutely imperative that we protect our interests in I want to convey a feeling of what it was like in 1982, the Falklands. We must protect the Falkland Islanders when I was 15—nearly 16—years old. My father, Captain because the Falklands will always, and should always, Alan Lewis Morris, who retired many years ago, was remain British. then the age I am now. He was in the reserves and was due to command a minesweeper that was stationed in 10.23 am Liverpool, out to the Falkland Islands. As it happened, Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): It is a pleasure it was his 25th wedding anniversary year, and he had to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Crausby. I already booked a cruise on the Queen Elizabeth 2; we congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham all know what happened there. As a young man at that (Guy Opperman) on securing this debate. time, watching what was happening on television, with As my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline both excitement and apprehension at what was unfolding Dinenage) said, she and I went to the Falklands earlier before my eyes, I had a bit of a moral and patriotic this year with the armed forces parliamentary scheme. insight, which was part of my wanting to be here in the For the avoidance of doubt, I hasten to add that, unlike House of Commons today. My father never went in my hon. Friends the Members for Hexham and for the end, because the day he was called up was the day Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris), we were the conflict ended. However, I remember wondering not room mates on this trip. whether, if he went away, he would come back. The The excellent armed forces parliamentary scheme conflict was very hard on both sides. The fact that we enables Members such as me who have no military travelled to the other side of the world and fought off experience or history to get a feel for what life is like in an aggressor on a small outpost speaks volumes about the forces. When we were in the Falklands, we visited the spirit of the British people. the RAF, the Army and the Navy and we did exercises Bob Stewart: Such action also speaks volumes for the with them all. We also met the islanders, whose message spirit and the quality of our armed forces who always to us was clear and consistent. Everywhere we went, multiply up their small numbers when they go into they said, “We are British and we want to stay British combat. In Afghanistan, their morale is outstanding for ever.” We must defend the rights of those islanders despite what is happening out there. My hon. Friend the and send a clear message back to Argentina. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) outlined the At one point on the visit, we spent the night on HMS situation in his admirable plea for more money for York, which was an experience in itself. We were with defence. If necessary, our forces will fight a superior the sailors, and not in the officers’ mess. I was with the force and retake the Falklands, because of the quality of stokers. [Interruption.] Yes, it was quite appropriate. It the people that we have in our armed forces. was an interesting experience. The ship was due to leave the Falklands and sail up the west coast of South David Morris: I thank my hon. Friend for that eloquent America. As part of that detail, HMS York was due to and powerful statement. I agree with everything that he dock in Chile to refuel and to give the guys some shore says. leave. While we were on the ship, though, the crew 205WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 206WH

[Andrew Bingham] As I made clear earlier, Labour continues to support the Islanders’ right to self-determination. It is a long- received notice that their shore leave had been cancelled established principle that has been recognised by successive because Chile would not allow them to dock or to go Governments and by the Falkland Islands constitution. ashore. We can only surmise the reasons for that, but I Moreover, as we have discussed, it is set out in article 1.2 suspect that it was due to the pressure that Argentina of the UN charter and in article 1 of the international has been applying on the nations in South America. In covenant on civil and political rights. As the hon. Member particular, it has been using economic pressure. It has for Hexham said, it has been reinforced by UN resolutions realised that military pressure will not work and so it that deal specifically with the Falkland Islands and by has now turned to economic means. We were told that the many other UN resolutions that reaffirm the taxes are now being levied on companies that operate in commitment to the right of people to determine for and around the Falkland Islands if they want to operate themselves what their future should be. Therefore, I am in Argentina. Again, it is more economic pressure on not persuaded by him that there is a need to enshrine the economic community that could help the Falkland that principle in UK law. He has said that it would send Islands to survive and grow. out a signal that we are absolutely committed to upholding We have heard about the claims of inflammatory the right to self-determination, but I do not think that acts. The Argentines say that sending Prince William to the purpose of legislation is simply to send out signals the Falklands was an inflammatory act, but what about when the position is already clear. Indeed, I thought the pressures that it is applying to the other nations in that the ideology that underpins his Government is that South America? As my hon. Friend the Member for we should not go down the path of unnecessary legislation; North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) said, we need to send a clear that we should legislate only when there is an absolute message to the Argentines. This is a case not of posturing need for it. Also, I am concerned that, if there were an but of being clear and firm. The Falkland Islanders are attempt to enshrine that principle in UK law, it could be British and they want to remain so. For as long as they seen to undermine other principles of international and wish to remain British, we will defend them and we will UN law that are not enshrined in UK law; it could seem not sit back while Argentina gets up to its old games. At that the principle were of a different status. the risk of being controversial, I ask the Minister to take a look at our foreign aid budget and see how much Mr Gray: I agree with the hon. Lady about small is given to Argentina, because there is a tool by which government, but does she recall the occasion when her we may exercise a little bit of extra pressure. right hon. Friend, the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) entered into negotiations with the Government of Spain It is 30 years since the Falklands war. Simon Weston on the future of Gibraltar without consulting the people has been mentioned previously. By complete fluke, I of Gibraltar? That shows that, on occasion, such things had the pleasure to have lunch with Simon many years can slip. Is that not a reason for writing the principle ago and I found his tales of the Falklands war both into law? fascinating and harrowing. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport said, while we were in the Falklands, we visited the Argentine outpost on Mount Tumbledown, Kerry McCarthy: I do not think that entering into which was remarkably well preserved and still carries negotiations or discussions with another country necessarily personal artefacts. I saw a training shoe and other such thwarts or flouts the right to self-determination. It is things. It was a very sobering experience. We must fairly well established that we will respect the right of remember that war 30 years ago. I was 19 when it the people in the overseas territories to determine their happened; slightly older than my hon. Friend the Member fate, and we have reiterated that over and again. for Morecambe and Lunesdale. Thirty years seems a long time ago, but we must never forget that many Mr Gray: Will the hon. Lady give way again? British soldiers gave their lives for the Falklands. The islanders respect, remember and appreciate that. We Kerry McCarthy: We are not here to discuss Gibraltar. must maintain our level of defence for them. It is their right to remain British and we must defend them. Mr Gray: If the hon. Lady is saying that she could see no reason why the right hon. Member for Blackburn should not have discussed with Spain the future of 10.28 am Gibraltar without consulting the people of Gibraltar, is Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): As ever, it is a she saying that it would be perfectly reasonable for any pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. other Foreign Secretary to enter into discussions with I congratulate the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy the Government of Argentina about the future of the Opperman) on securing this debate. The good turnout Falklands without consulting the people there? today is a testament to the desire in this House to reiterate our support for the people of the Falkland Kerry McCarthy: I am obviously not saying that at Islands. As we mark the 30 years since the Falklands all. If we were having bilateral meetings with Argentina, war, it is important to remember not only those who or if there were a state visit to Argentina, and the issue fought but the sacrifice of the 255 Britons who lost their of the future of the Falklands Islands were raised by the lives. As we approach the anniversary, the increasing Argentine Government, we would of course have tension and the greater focus on the Falkland Islands discussions with them about that. That is not the same must be particularly difficult for the families of those as entering into negotiations or in any way at all committing who died during the conflict. It is important that we use to signing away the rights of the Falklands Islands occasions such as this to reiterate our gratitude to them without respecting its residents’ right to self-determination. for their sacrifice and our commitment to protecting the As has already been mentioned, given that the Falkland Falkland Islands. Islanders are unanimous in their desire to remain British, 207WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 208WH

I cannot see that as something that would in any way, people themselves and that they will remain British for shape or form be on the table in a serious way at any as long as they choose to do so, and we also agree that such discussions. Argentina cannot disregard the Falkland Islanders’ right to choose. However, accusing the Argentine Government Guy Opperman: For the avoidance of doubt, I shall of colonialism, which was clearly an emotive choice of try to clarify the point that I was seeking to make, which words, provoked a strong reaction from the Government I believe was supported by my hon. Friend the Member and the Argentine people. Does the Minister think, for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray). with hindsight, that that was a wise choice of words? There have, down the generations, been examples— We are also concerned about the march on the embassy whether it is Gibraltar or the Falkland Islands in the in Buenos Aires, in which protestors burned the Union late 1960s—where successive Governments have sought flag. Will the Minister assure us that the welfare of the to negotiate on sovereignty in circumstances where that embassy staff is being protected? has palpably not been the will of the people. My proposal Some suggestions have been made, not in this Chamber, would allow the House of Commons and Parliament to but in the media, that the defence of the Falkland send out a crystal-clear message that self-determination Islands would not be secure if there were attempts by is part of the law of this country, and negotiations Argentina to invade—although we note that the Argentine cannot be entered into without observation of the individual President has ruled out any military action. For example, rights of those persons. That does not currently exist, in a recent piece in The Daily Telegraph, General Sir and that is the right reason why we seek a law on Michael Jackson said that Britain would not be able to self-determination out of the Foreign Office White Paper reclaim the Falklands if Argentina invaded. I note that that will be discussed in the House this year. earlier in the debate the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who is well informed on such matters, Kerry McCarthy: Perhaps we can agree to differ on assured us that that was not the case and that there was that matter, and I look forward to hearing what the no threat, but I would be grateful to receive some Minister has to say and whether he feels there is a need reassurance. for the principle to be enshrined in UK law. Mr Gray: It is absolutely the case that we would not We share the Foreign Office’s disappointment about be able to send a task force tomorrow in the way that we the decision to block ships that carry the Falklands flag. did 30 years ago; we simply do not have the resources to Developments since December have been particularly do that. That is quite different from saying that we have troubling, and we welcome the robust response from the no resources to defend the Falklands—of course we do. Foreign Office. Although it is reassuring that ships have In particular, the building of a runway at the airport has been able to get around that policy and continue to made defending the Falklands an entirely different matter enter ports by carrying the British flag, it is obviously from what it was 30 years ago, when that did not exist. not acceptable for the Argentine Government, because Of course we can do it today, but we would not be able they object to the Falkland Islanders’ choice to remain to lay on a task force as we did then. British, to seek to impose an economic blockade or to inhibit the Islanders’ way of carrying on their economic Kerry McCarthy: Indeed. life. Argentina has now named an ambassador to the UK, It is also worrying that other south American countries which is a step in the right direction. Will the Minister have been brought on board in that decision. Will the tell us whether he has had any contact with Alicia Minister confirm which countries and representatives Castro since her appointment? Does he intend to meet from south America have had direct discussions with her soon? Have his officials in the Foreign Office had the Foreign Secretary, who visited Latin America earlier any contact with her? We are all keen to hear from the this month, about the Falkland Islands? Was the blockade Minister his response to the various points that have discussed with other countries? What was the outcome been raised in the debate, so I will hand over to him. of the talks? Will the Minister assure us that the Foreign Office is using all diplomatic options to encourage Latin America to respect the Falkland Islanders’ right 10.38 am to self-determination? What assessment has the Foreign The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office made of the impact of the tension with Argentina Office (Mr Jeremy Browne): Thank you, Mr Crausby, over the Falkland Islands on the UK Government’s for presiding effectively over this morning’s important efforts to strengthen the relationship with the rest of debate. I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend the south America? Will the Minister explain to us what Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) for giving the representations the Government have made to counterparts House the opportunity to discuss in detail what is not in Chile about protecting the one flight a week from only a topical issue, but a core issue of national importance, Chile to the Falkland Islands, which President Fernandez which has been receiving considerable media attention has sought to stop? recently. It is quite right that we are discussing the We appreciate—I have reiterated this today—the need matter in the House, and I pay tribute to all Members for a robust and unambiguous stance from the UK who have contributed to our deliberations. Government on our determination to protect the Falkland In addition, Mr Crausby, I do not know whether this Islanders’ right to self-determination and, consequential is improper in procedural terms, but I want to welcome to that, their British status. Is the Foreign Office concerned, Dick Sawle, a Member of the Falkland Islands Legislative however, that the Prime Minister’s choice of language Assembly, who is in Westminster Hall to witness our might have unnecessarily inflamed the situation? I welcome debate today. Other Members have quite rightly paid the Prime Minister’s clear assertion in the House that tribute to the British soldiers and Falkland Islanders the future of the Falkland Islands is a matter for the who died almost 30 years ago in the Falkland Islands 209WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 210WH

[Mr Jeremy Browne] We are not in any way complacent about what is happening at the moment. We understand the tactics war, as well as to those who suffered lifelong physical being adopted by the Argentine Government, and they and mental trauma as a result of the war. And as we may yet seek in the months ahead to intensify the approach the 30th anniversary of the war, it is also pressure that they are applying. However, to expand on appropriate to reflect, as others have already done, on the point that I was just making to the hon. Member for the deaths of Argentines during the conflict. West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle), we should not The Falkland Islanders have faced successive challenges exaggerate the success that Argentina has had. The from Argentina to their democratic right to decide how Falklands economy continues to grow strongly, with a and by whom they are governed, but the British budget surplus and very healthy reserves. If the objective Government’s support for the Falkland Islands is of the Argentine Government is to weaken the resolve unequivocal. So, for the avoidance of doubt, I say to the of the Falkland Islanders through economic means, it is House today that we—the British Government—believe not an objective that they have achieved. in the principle of self-determination for the Falkland The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), Islanders, and our position has not changed and will who speaks for the Opposition, asked what representations not change. Our strong response to the statement by the British Government are making to countries across the Latin American bloc, Mercosur, last month, a south America. The answer is that we make frequent statement which purportedly banned vessels that fly the representations at a very high level. As she said, the Falkland Islands flag, was a clear demonstration of our Foreign Secretary has just been to Brazil, where he position, and to Argentina itself we expressed our deep specifically raised the issue of the Falklands at the disappointment at its attempts to intimidate the Falkland highest levels of the Brazilian Government. We have Islanders. We condemned Argentina’s actions both in also made unambiguous representations to the other London and through our ambassador in Buenos Aires. Mercosur countries, Uruguay and Paraguay, and to From Argentina’s attempts to harass Falklands-bound Chile, which is associated with Mercosur. Indeed, right shipping or its attempts to close south American ports across Latin America, we have made our position clear, to Falklands vessels, to its threats to cut off the air links and I have made direct representations to Colombia, between Chile and the Falklands or to damage companies Ecuador, Bolivia and other countries right across Latin that do legitimate business in the Falklands, there is a America, some of which instinctively support the Argentine pattern of behaviour designed to blockade the Falklands position however many representations we make. economically, which is unacceptable and utterly counter- Nevertheless, it is still important for us to make our productive if the objective is to make the Falkland position clear and unambiguous, and I think that other Islands part of Argentina. Latin American countries are more susceptible to reasoned argument than those that instinctively support the Argentine Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I position. visited the Falklands in November, and I have been listening to the debate this morning with interest. I am Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I apologise slightly concerned that in this debate we are perhaps for coming in late; I was detained, but I have been giving too much merit to the present-day posturing of watching the debate downstairs. The Foreign Secretary the Argentines. I welcome the Government’s actions, was in Brazil, which is not a natural ally of Argentina, which the Minister has been setting out, but does he and yet Brazil is lining up with Argentina on the Falklands recognise that it is important that we ourselves do not question. Did the Foreign Secretary obtain any reassurance fall back on posturing or indeed on inflammatory that Brazil, which is now a major world power, is going statements? to distance itself from what is, frankly, the very wrong position that Argentina is taking and that it would line Mr Browne: I want to start my response to the hon. up with the world’s democracies, including our own, or Lady by thanking her for going to the Falklands; we did he return empty-handed? had a good meeting on her return to discuss her experiences and what she learned from that visit. I take her point Mr Browne: Oh, dear. It is a shame that the right hon. that we should not exaggerate the effectiveness of the Gentleman should come into Westminster Hall right at Argentines’ actions, and I will discuss that point later in the end of the debate and that he seeks to put the matter my speech. At the same time, however, it is important in those terms. that, without being inflammatory in our language, we are very clear and unequivocal in this debate about the Mr MacShane: It is a question. position of the British Government and, I believe, the British Parliament, and not to leave any room for Mr Browne: No, I would not see it in terms of the misinterpretation. Foreign Secretary returning “empty-handed”. Brazil is I want to reassure the hon. Member for Hexham and keen to have a constructive relationship with its neighbour, others who have contributed to the debate that the Argentina—the relationship with Argentina is an important Government have been extremely active in condemning commercially and politically for Brazil. At the same any attempts by Argentina to erect an economic blockade time, we are very pleased that Brazil is keen to have a of the Falklands, and it is right that we call it what it is, growing relationship with the UK. The Foreign Secretary which is an economic blockade. It is designed to try to had an extremely valuable and productive visit to Brazil, hurt the Falkland Islanders economically, to disadvantage and he had extensive talks in Brasilia with the Brazilian them and to reduce their standard of living. As I have Foreign Secretary. The subject of the Falklands was not already said, we have been very clear that we regard that the only subject that was raised in the discussions course of action by Argentina as the wrong course of between the two Foreign Secretaries, but it was raised. action. We want vital trade links to be maintained. Not all of our diplomacy is so visible, because some of 211WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 212WH it is more discreet than that. I assure my hon. Friends that both in south America and in the UK their views and all Members present for this debate that we attach a are heard and their wishes are, increasingly I hope, very high priority to the issue of the Falklands, that the respected. Brazilians and others understand our position and that, The Prime Minister and others have voiced their like ourselves, the Brazilians and others do not wish to support, and our embassies have worked tirelessly across see an economic blockade of the Falklands. Latin America and more widely in other countries The hon. Member for Bristol East, who speaks for around the world, to support the position of the Falkland the Opposition, asked whether I thought that the Prime Islanders. In some regards, that is already yielding dividends. Minister’s position was appropriate. It is right that the At the recent UK-Caribbean Forum, for example, the Prime Minister is clear in this House—in Parliament—about Foreign Secretary and I were personally involved in the strong support that the British Government give to making the case for the people of the Falkland Islands, the status of the Falkland Islands. And on the military and I am pleased that Caribbean Governments gave point that was raised by a number of Members, I assure their unanimous backing to the rights of the Islanders the House that the Government continue to take necessary to self-determination. steps to maintain the security of the Falkland Islands. The point has been made in this debate on whether More broadly, Members have talked about our wider we should have a self-determination law in the UK. The relationship with Argentina. We have made it clear to right to self-determination is already enshrined in law, Argentina that we are enthusiastic about having a more as hon. Members know, via article 1.2 of the UN productive relationship and about addressing global charter, and article 1 of the International Covenant on issues together, including climate change or the global Civil and Political Rights, and it is worth emphasising economy. Argentina, of course, is a member of the G20, that it is also written into the Falkland Islands constitution. so we have another opportunity in that forum to raise The British Government already have a legal obligation and discuss issues with it, and to build alliances with it to uphold both the principle and the practical consequences where it is appropriate and in our shared interests to do of self-determination, so we do not see the need for so. additional work in that area. We believe that point is clearly established. We want to work with Argentina constructively. There We will continue all our work throughout 2012 and are areas where we share interests. We not only share beyond in all those regards. The cornerstone of our economic interests, but wider trade issues, energy issues, policy will always be the Islanders and their clearly transport issues, cultural issues, sporting issues and expressed wishes. I have had many opportunities to educational issues. There are lots of areas where we meet representatives of the Falkland Islanders to discuss want to work more productively with Argentina than their concerns and to work closely with them. It is fair we are sometimes able to do at the moment, but only so to say that I devote as much attention to the Falkland long as Argentina understands that that process is not Islands as to any other part of the world. Despite the in some way part of a negotiation on the Falkland small population it is a part of the world of extreme Islands. The status of the Falkland Islands is non-negotiable importance to the FCO. We work closely with for us, but in other regards we wish to have a helpful representatives of the Falkland Islands to ensure as best and productive dialogue with Argentina. we can that their interests are met. I have not yet had the opportunity to meet Argentina’s Indeed, I have been honoured with an invitation from new ambassador to the UK—I do not think that she the Falkland Islands Government, and I can announce has arrived in London yet. However, I certainly will this morning that I will visit the Falkland Islands in meet her when she arrives and at the moment I have June as it commemorates the 30th anniversary of its regular and perfectly amicable engagement with the liberation. The Government feel it is important to have Argentine chargé d’affaires, who will be replaced by the a Foreign Office Minister present for that anniversary ambassador when she arrives. event. I am pleased to attend what will be an important and sombre occasion. I am also looking forward to Dr McCrea: I accept all that the Minister says concerning taking the opportunity to get to know better the Islanders the desire of the UK Government to work hand in hand and their home. on so many issues with the Argentines. However, does he agree that no threat of conflict from any Argentine Mr Gray: The House will welcome the fact that the Government will pressure the British Government into Minister intends to visit the Falkland Islands in June, any negotiations that would undermine the will and which is an important symbol of our support. While he determination of the Falklands people to remain British? is there, will he take the opportunity to nip down to South Georgia and have a look at the excellent work Mr Browne: Yes. I hoped that I had made that clear, done by the South Georgia Preservation Trust to eradicate but I will make the point again for the avoidance of rats? doubt. Our position on the self-determination of the Mr Browne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that Falkland Islands is and remains non-negotiable. We suggestion. My programme has yet to be finalised, have secured assurances from countries elsewhere in apart from the anniversary date, when I will participate south America that they have no appetite for joining in the commemorations. I am in the Falkland Islands Argentina in attempts to damage the islands’ economy. for a number of days, so I will be taking the opportunity We have asserted our commitment to deepening and to gain a wider understanding of a range of issues that broadening Britain’s engagement with Latin America as affect the Falkland Islands and possibly other islands in a whole. To the Falkland Islanders, we have offered the area. I had in mind more clear-cut economic and reassurance of our enduring commitment to their security social issues, but I am open to any suggestions that my and to their well-being. More than that, we have ensured hon. Friend wishes to send to my office. 213WH Falkland Islands31 JANUARY 2012 Falkland Islands 214WH

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): I thank the support in doing so in the future. It is not for us in Minister for giving way, and I apologise for not being Westminster to set out what the future holds for the present at the start of the debate. May I second the Falkland Islands. That is the preserve of their people. invitation to South Georgia offered by the hon. Member They have that right to self-determination about which for North Wiltshire? It makes a lovely canoeing trip: we have spoken at length in this debate. Only they can perhaps he could take the journey from the Falklands decide how to respond to the opportunities and challenges to South Georgia by canoe and see what the way of life of the years ahead. The British Government are determined is like. to ensure that they have the right to self-determination On a more serious point, the Minister has gone but they make their own choices about how to order through the relationships developed through the Foreign their affairs. That is quite right and proper. Secretary going to Brazil and through representatives While is it for the Islanders to determine their own here in the UK. However, will he put on record the future, it is for the UK to enable them to do so in a contribution that the Falkland Islands representative in secure environment and without pressure or interference Britain, Sukey Cameron, makes to the agenda, and the from others. That is why, apart from a range of wider work that she does through her office to ensure that the considerations across Latin America to do with trade, Falkland Islands stays at the top of the political agenda politics and working together on matters such as climate in the UK, and to ensure that trips, such as the one the change or cultural exchanges, we are very keen to Minister is to make in June, are well-organised and ensure that the position of the Falkland Islands is well-informed? understood in Latin America and further afield. I also pay tribute to the members of the Legislative Mr Browne: I am happy to pay tribute to Ms Cameron Assembly, who have been extremely effective in their in the way that the hon. Gentleman asks. I meet her meetings with other countries at explaining their position, frequently, and she is a great champion of the Falkland in a way that many countries find compelling when they Islands and Islanders and makes an extremely compelling hear it directly from representatives of the Falkland case for their interests. I also pay tribute to the hon. Islands rather than just the British Government. I know Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), who visited those efforts are intensifying, and I welcome them. the Falkland Islands last year and brings extra knowledge The Falkland Islands will face many challenges in the to the debate as a result. future, ranging from the economic to the environmental. It is understandable that this anniversary year will see It is a remote part of the world and has a small much focus on the past. It is right, of course, that we population, which can present difficulties. However, remember and give thanks for the sacrifice of those who one thing will not change: the UK will always be fought and died in defence of the Islands. Their sacrifice forthright in support of the Islanders’ wishes and relentless secured the Islanders’ future. Now, in 2012, that future in upholding their rights. looks brighter than ever for the people of the Falkland I finish by drawing attention to what the Foreign Islands. The economy of the Falklands is on a secure Secretary said recently on the matter. It will leave the footing and the Islanders will continue to build new House completely clear about the Government’s intentions enterprises and to explore new markets. Tourism is on and reassure hon. Members who have spoken before the increase—around 65,000 cruise-ship passengers visited me: the Islands last year—and the figure is set to increase in “The future of the Falkland Islands is about people…Thirty future years. years after the Argentine invasion, their right to self-determination Oil exploration is continuing apace. Let me be clear, remains, and will always remain, the cornerstone of our policy.” as the issue arose during our deliberations, that the Thank you, Mr Crausby, for chairing the debate so resources around the Falkland Islands belong to the effectively, and thank you to all hon. Members who Islanders. It is absolutely right that they should develop contributed to discussing this important issue in the that aspect of their economy and they enjoy our full 30th anniversary year of the Falklands war. 215WH 31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 216WH

Policing (North Wales) has lost 85 police officers, or more than 5% of its whole force. By 2015, it is forecast that more than 360 staff 11 am could go—179 officers and 186 civilian staff. After years of steadily rising numbers of police officers, so Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): It is a great many are now being cut that already we have fewer pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first officers in north Wales than we did a decade ago. time, Mr Crausby, and to see so many colleagues from Meanwhile, the population of north Wales has increased north Wales here to debate this important issue. by over 12,000. It is not often that I can begin such a debate by saying that we can learn something from the Welsh Conservatives, but today I am privileged to be able to Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My hon. Friend do so. The Welsh Conservatives have cancelled their makes a very powerful case, which exposes the Llandudno conference this year, apparently because of Government’s ludicrous argument that somehow they security costs. I am not sure whether they think extra can cut some mythical back room—and even the middle security is needed to hold back the crowds or to ensure room, whatever that is—without affecting front-line that none of their politicians get out to hear what local services. In north Wales, front-line police officers are people think. Wherever they plan to skulk off to being cut. instead, I hope they face the full weight of the law for non-payment of the £20,000 that the Imperial hotel is Susan Elan Jones: I agree wholeheartedly with my likely to lose because of their bad business practice in hon. Friend, and I will go on later to mention some cancelling so late. Leaving aside their cowboy aspects of policing, such as forensics, that are covered capitalism—I see that the hon. Member for Aberconwy by the description of back-room policing. (Guto Bebb) does not wish to intervene—the Ministers say repeatedly that police chiefs are the Conservatives’ decision has betrayed a fact they have only ones responsible for cutting back on numbers. been trying to deny since the general election, which is Despite the inspectorate’s advice, they say: that good security costs money, and without enough funding, security will suffer. “By the end of the spending review period, the police will still have the resources to do their important work.”—[Official Report, That principle brings me to today’s debate, ahead of House of Lords, 6 September 2011; Vol. 730, c. WA28.] next week’s vote on more cuts to the North Wales police force. The first duty of any Government is to protect In fact, no fewer than nine times in the past six months, their citizens, or to put in place the brave men and Ministers have given the same answer to various questions women who do that for us. We all rely on our police in Parliament about falling police numbers. The mantra forces to keep us safe, and we in north Wales are goes a bit like this: extremely lucky to have an excellent force, which provides “we have set a challenging but manageable funding settlement for a top-class, professional service to our communities. the police service. It is for the chief constable and the police Our police force, however, is being let down, and law authority in each force to determine the number of police officers and order—cyfraith a threfn—is being woefully let down that are deployed given the available resources.”—[Official Report, in the process. 7 November 2011; Vol. 535, c. 16.] Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary was asked Perhaps we will hear that again from the Minister to advise the Government on possible efficiency savings today, to round it off to a nice, even and decimal 10. in the police force, and said that “cost cutting and improvements in productivity could, if relentlessly Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): In my constituency, the pursued, generate a saving of 12% in central government funding practical effect of the Government’s policy in terms of without affecting police availability—but only if there was a fundamental ‘re-design’ of the system”. reduction is that dedicated community police officers, who have been hugely effective and successful in policing Despite that advice, the Government are pursuing a local areas, have been taken away from particular 20% cut in police funding, stripping the police of 8% geographical areas, which is causing great concern among more of their funding than the experts said could be councillors and is having a huge impact on the ground. removed safely. Will my hon. Friend urge the Government to look again Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I am grateful to the at the impact, not in the back room but on the streets? hon. Lady for giving way, and I congratulate her on securing this debate. Is it not the case that the Labour Susan Elan Jones: I agree totally with my hon. Friend Welsh Government are cutting funding to police forces and share his concern about the impact that it is having by 6.3%, compared with 6.9% from central Government? in Wrexham county borough. Would she defend that difference? If the Government know how police chiefs can keep Susan Elan Jones: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s all their people and premises on 20% less money, with a crib sheet comment, but I remind him that the Welsh rising population and fewer back-office resources, I Government, who are dealing with a very difficult situation hope that the Minister will tell us. North Wales police from the UK Government, are increasing the number knows its own organisation’s needs better than anyone, of police community support officers by 500. I urge him and it has made it clear that it cannot keep all its officers to reflect on that. I also note his non-comment on his under the budget cut. Our excellent chief constable party’s lack of funding in his own constituency, Aberconwy, Mark Polin made his position perfectly clear, saying: thanks to the cancellation of its Llandudno conference. “If I am going to keep the organisation in balance, we are Despite HMIC’s advice, the Government are pursuing going to have to lose a significant number of staff…I have no wish a 20% cut in police funding. On the ground, that means to reduce any of our staff, but I have got to. I have no choice that since the last general election, North Wales police whatsoever”. 217WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 218WH

[Susan Elan Jones] Susan Elan Jones: I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. Gentleman that behind each statistic there is often No choice whatsoever—Ministers know that that is a human tragedy. I am grateful to him for raising that true. Now is the time for them to stop passing the buck point. and take responsibility for the chaos that they have created. Ian Lucas: My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Throughout the ’90s and the past 10 years, North Wales’ policing needs will be hit particularly there was a consensus among all the political parties on hard because of the rural nature of our area and the the need to confront crime by increasing the number of loss, on top of the 20% budget cut, of the payment that officers. Is it not a profound shame that that consensus used to be awarded to help cope with that. One hidden has been broken, and that the impact that that will have change brought in alongside the headline cuts to budgets on individual people’s lives is being ignored by this is the merging of the rural police grant into the core Government? settlement. It is effectively being abolished for police forces such as North Wales, which used to benefit from Susan Elan Jones: That is correct, and it is especially it directly. true of our scattered rural communities.

Our rural communities have specific policing needs, Mark Tami: Will my hon. Friend give way? and the rural grant was introduced by the Labour Government to address them. A sparse and scattered Susan Elan Jones: In a moment—I must make progress. population cannot be policed in the same way as an The offences that I have listed are exactly the kinds that urban centre. Police have to cover huge distances, incurring tend to increase when police numbers fall. HMIC published extra costs in fuel or infrastructure such as buildings research last summer that acknowledged that lots of that urban police forces need not budget for. That is factors affect crime rates, but it also stated that why the Home Office’s police allocation formula working group considered and rejected the recommendation that “there is relatively strong evidence for the potential of an effect of police numbers on crime, particularly with regard to property and the rural grant should be rolled in with other categories other acquisitive forms of offending.” of grant and effectively lost. Again, however, that expert opinion was ignored, and north Wales will have to do It also noted: without. “Research suggests that frontline officer numbers are one factor in a force’s ability to fight crime.” Why does it matter? Let me give an example. Last In north Wales, official statistics obtained by my hon. year, part of my constituency suffered some worrying Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) arson-related attacks on cars. That kind of crime requires show that since 2001, crime broadly decreased as officer exactly the same kinds of police resources in a rural numbers rose. It is good common sense—more police village as it would if it happened in an inner-city area, officers can fight more crime—but, sadly, the Government but rural police are spread more thinly and need to parties seem determined to ignore the links. Their line is travel further to reach the trouble when it happens. No to quote one sentence from last year’s Home Affairs amount of so-called efficiency savings can mitigate the Committee report. I suspect that the Minister may wish geography, unless Ministers would like all of my constituents to do that today, so I will save him the task. It says that and others in north Wales to relocate together to one “there is no simple relationship between numbers of police officers place in order to make things easier. The Countryside and levels of crime”, Alliance rightly makes the point that the proposed but that line has been carefully cherry-picked. The rest levels of police cuts would be “a free-for-all” for those of the report is full of evidence to the contrary. In the who would commit crime in the countryside. same paragraph as the quotation that the Government I am delighted to see the Labour-led Welsh Government like, the Committee offers a clarification: fund an additional 500 community support officers “However, the loss of posts will have an impact on the range of across Wales, but the loss of the rural police grant is a services that the police provide and the way in which they are double whammy for us. The official figures show that provided.” vehicle crime is up in north Wales by 84% over the past The report also notes the evidence of Mr McKeever, year—from about 130 incidents in November 2010 to the chairman of the Police Federation, who said in his 250 in November 2011. Burglary and other crimes, evidence that including theft, shoplifting, criminal damage and public “there is a clear trend in the relationship between police officer disorder have also increased during that time frame. numbers and crime.” The report also references Councillor Burns-Williamson, deputy chair of the Association of Police Authorities, Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I am who told the inquiry: sure that the hon. Lady will acknowledge that crime is a “My guess is that, given the cuts over the four-year reality in every part of the United Kingdom. She mentions period…probably crime levels will start to rise.” statistics regarding increases of burglaries and robberies Elsewhere, even the Conservative Mayor of London in Wales, and sex crime is also an issue. Does the hon. agrees that “numbers matter”. Lady agree that we as Members of Parliament need to remember that behind every one of these crimes are Guto Bebb: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving horrifying stories of lives that have been blighted—many way again. On the basis of her argument, I take it that of them changed, never to be the same again—and that she is against any cuts whatsoever to the police budget, it is therefore necessary to have the police available to but is that not contrary to the shadow Chancellor’s stop crime? comments over the past two weeks? 219WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 220WH

Susan Elan Jones: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman The creation of the new commissioner posts will has raised that subject—something told me it would bring politics into policing like never before, providing appear. The position is clear. Before the last election, yet another difficulty and distraction for chief constables the Labour Government made it plain that, in common trying to do their jobs to protect law-abiding citizens in with the police, they would agree to 12% cuts in order to the midst of a funding crisis. Operational independence reduce back-office costs. I think that the hon. Gentleman will be threatened as electioneering takes the place of is referring to what a future Labour Government may long-term planning. Collaboration between forces could have to do with the so-called deficit plans of this be threatened as commissioners from different political Government, which appear to mean total cuts but very parties prefer to compete with each other, with an eye little growth. It would be dishonest of me to offer a on the next election. That is not the way to run a police prediction in such circumstances, but let me be clear: if force. I imagine that most of our political parties will there was a Labour Government in office now, we would field candidates for the positions and that some of the be sticking to 12%. The hon. Gentleman is incorrect in victors will do the best job they can if they are elected, what he says from his central office crib sheet. but that is not the point. The point is that the policy itself is a total shambles. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Those calculations of 12% were given at a time when the economy was Next week, Parliament will be asked to vote on the improving—GDP was going up, unemployment was police grant report, which will seek to cut a further 7% going down and confidence was going up. At that point, from North Wales police’s budget—£3.4 million. I see things were on the mend. Since this Government have that the Minister appears to be working his electronic been in power, they have added an extra £158 billion to device. Perhaps he could throw this calculation in: the bill. We have to recognise that. £3.4 million. North Wales cannot afford these cuts. If we want to support our police and our communities, we Susan Elan Jones: That is absolutely correct. There is must stand up against the reckless cuts that the Government no question about what the previous Labour Government are trying to push through. It would be totally irresponsible did, or about what a Labour Government would do if to go ahead when officer numbers have already had to they were in power now. fall and when communities are losing their police stations. The Government speak about back-office costs, but Instead, our officers should get the backing they deserve they seem to forget that forensics, family liaison and and the funding they need to stay in their jobs and do call-handlers, among others, fall within that definition. them without interference. Surely no one in the 21st century can define front-line I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us why he policing as a few Dixon of Dock Greens plodding thinks he knows better than Her Majesty’s inspectorate amiably around the patch. In fact, it seems that everyone, of constabulary, better than the Association of Police except for the Ministers in charge of the policy, agrees Authorities and better than the Police Federation of that there is some link between the number of officers England and Wales. I hope that he will tell us what he available and crime levels. In other words, fewer police thinks North Wales police should do differently to officers will find it more difficult to police crime. avoid losing officers, how they can make our large rural If crime increases in the coming months and years, I areas more efficient to police and what possible reason am sure that it will be blamed on snow, an extra bank Members have for voting through a further 7% budget holiday, the eurozone or, for all we know, on Britain not cut next week. However, I hope even more that Ministers quite making it in the Eurovision song contest. The will listen to the evidence and hear how it affects north victims of crime, however, will ask why the Government Wales and other parts of the UK, and that they will did not listen when the experts told them that a 20% cut have the courage to think again. was too much. We need to act now to stop that happening. The only officers whom the Minister seems to think 11.20 am are important are the ones who do not yet exist—the elected police commissioners. There is not one shred of Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): It is a evidence that imposing these outside managers on police pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. forces will cut crime by one iota. The policy is a gimmick, I congratulate the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan pure and simple. It is totally unfounded on fact or Elan Jones) on securing the debate. previous best practice. It is not surprising, therefore, I am still hoping that the debate will be an opportunity that the Police Authorities of Wales has recommended not for a display of new Labour, but for a display of that the establishment of police commissioners—or, in new realism. Perhaps the hon. Lady might like to explain their words, the “bureaucratic web” and a why the Welsh Assembly has cut police funding. I “poor model of police governance”— understand that the Labour party supports the budget should be deferred. The Government, however, continue reductions because its economic credibility depends on to press forward regardless. it and it cannot guarantee to reverse any of the funding The plan will not come free. Incredibly, even though cuts that the Government are going to make. Yet, at the North Wales police, like other police forces, is losing same time, Labour opposes every step that the coalition police officers because it has not been given enough Government take. funds to pay for them, the Government have still found In fact, we have heard in the debate today that one of £100 million—the cost of 600 full-time officers—to pay the cuts Labour Members think they can support is a for these new positions. They argue that the plan will 12% reduction in the police budget. If that is the case, connect the public to the police service, but the idea that perhaps the hon. Lady or the official spokesman for the the public see more elected officials—bureaucrats by Opposition, the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) any other name—as the answer to crime, rather than when he responds, would like to tell hon. Members more policemen and women, is totally absurd. exactly how many officers that will equate to, because 221WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 222WH

[Tom Brake] Lady said, I acknowledge that, for rural forces, there are clearly bigger challenges than for forces in urban areas, the hon. Lady is in cloud cuckoo land if she thinks that where, for instance, it is easier to call on support from a 12% cut does not relate to a reduction in staffing neighbouring forces because the distances are smaller. I numbers. acknowledge those points. In those circumstances, it was right that the chief Ian Lucas: Just to clarify the position for the hon. constable, Mark Polin, undertook the reorganisation Gentleman, the budget for the Welsh Assembly is provided proposals that he has instigated in terms of setting up by the UK Government, who cut the budget. The Welsh the hubs, reducing senior management numbers and Assembly has less money because the UK Government merging three divisions into one. It is perfectly appropriate cut the funding. That is why there are cuts taking place that, having undertaken that reorganisation, the matter in the Welsh Assembly. should be looked at again to see what the impact has been. We need to consider whether such an approach Tom Brake: I understand the very simple economics has been effective and whether it has perhaps had to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, but, of unintended consequences that the chief constable may course, the Welsh Assembly has the ability to take be able to address. decisions and make its own priorities. Clearly, it has In the past, the chief constable has criticised partnerships, chosen not to make policing a priority. so I hope that he will not go down the line of saying that partnerships get in the way of the police working effectively. Susan Elan Jones: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is Certainly, my experience is that partnerships—particularly rather better versed in matters in Carshalton than he is those with the local authority, the voluntary sector and in those in Wales. As my hon. Friend the Member for other partners—are an effective way of reducing crime Wrexham (Ian Lucas) has made clear, the reason for in an area, not a hindrance. I do not consider officers that situation is a reduction in funding from Westminster. who are allocated to a partnership role as being officers I also made it clear that, partly to mitigate what has who are badly allocated in that respect. happened, the Welsh Assembly Government have increased Another point that the chief constable’s review may the number of PCSOs by 500. The hon. Gentleman touch on is the issue of overtime payments because, speaks of wishing for a new realism and a lack of clearly, there has been an increase in north Wales. I partisanship but, quite honestly, I find his comments accept that there will be circumstances in which overtime totally partisan, totally unhelpful and showing a total payments allow officers to be specially tasked for a lack of knowledge of the people of north Wales. particular initiative. However, at the same time, there needs to be a balance between an acceptable reliance on Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. overtime and police officer numbers. I think she will have to accept that, in fact, this will be a rather partisan debate. When she opened the debate, she Susan Elan Jones rose— set the tone. Tom Brake: I see that the hon. Lady is on the edge of Chris Ruane: On that partisan point, will the hon. her chair. Perhaps she wants to intervene on me at this Gentleman tell us what happened to the 3,000 extra point. police officers that his party promised before the last election during the middle of the economic crisis? Susan Elan Jones: Can the hon. Gentleman tell us his experience of living in north Wales? Tom Brake: I am very happy to respond to that; indeed, I have responded to similar points in a number Tom Brake: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. of debates since the new Government were elected. The I have no experience of living in north Wales. I am not financial circumstances do not allow such pledges to be purporting to have the very local knowledge that she funded. It is as simple as that. What this discussion has and other Welsh Members here have. Clearly, that is not revealed is that we need to have an important debate— the case. If she takes part in a debate about London perhaps if we set aside partisanship, we could have that policing matters in the future, I may throw that comment debate—about using police officers effectively.For example, back at her to see what her experience has been and if we recruit more police officers and put them in a call whether she has lived in London, as I have for the past centre, it might add to police officer numbers, but it 30 years. She may be able to comment in some detail on does not necessarily equate to a more effective police that matter. force. I want to move on to what might in the longer term present a solution to these problems. I—and I think Susan Elan Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? many hon. Members present—would like the Welsh Assembly to take on greater responsibility for policing Tom Brake: If the hon. Lady will forgive me, I need to and justice issues. I see that some Members are not in make a little progress, having taken four or five interventions agreement with me, but others may well be. In the already. longer term, if Wales wants to have total control of its I hope that this morning’s debate will not be totally policing and therefore have responsibility for deciding partisan. Clearly, there are some very challenging what the appropriate level of policing is and what circumstances for the police in north Wales. I understand percentage of its budget should be allocated to policing that, prior to the election, they had lost 85 officers and issues, that is an ambition I support. that, under the previous Government, there were some Clearly, I accept that there would be enormous challenges issues that needed to be addressed. There has since been to achieving that and that we would have to try to a further reduction in officer numbers. As the hon. unpick the funding arrangements that apply to policing. 223WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 224WH

I, and many hon. Members here, know that that is That is not even an assurance that there would be an extremely controversial. Depending on which part of improvement in response times; there would merely the country someone comes from, the funding arrangements be an effort to keep them the same. The hubs may be either work for or against them. Clearly, that issue perfectly acceptable in areas where travelling is reasonably would require long and detailed negotiations. However, easy. I am sure that those areas bordering the A55 think in the longer term, I cannot see any other solution to it is a useful idea, given that a vehicle exhibiting blue providing the policing that Wales feels is acceptable for lights can travel a long distance on that road in a Wales. As long as the UK Government—in whatever relatively short time. shape or form—continue to provide funding for policing, we will always have rather sterile debates about central Mark Tami: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept Government not allocating enough money, and the that Deeside, which is one of the most densely populated Welsh Assembly not being able to deploy the resources areas in north Wales, does not have a hub at all? that it would like to deploy. On that final point, which I hope will provide a Mr Llwyd: That surprises me greatly. longer term solution to these funding issues, I conclude my remarks. As I said, I hope that this debate will not Chris Ruane: Or Rhyl. be entirely partisan. I had 13 years’ experience in opposition and I always felt that it was clearly my role to attack the Mr Llwyd: The hon. Gentleman refers to Rhyl. That previous Government, which I did, hopefully with some also surprises me. There has been a fairly high crime vigour. At the same time, I always felt that as an rate there for some years. Of course, we understand that Opposition Member it was incumbent on me to reflect this policy will be reviewed in the coming weeks. I hope the reality of the circumstances, and deploy some solutions sincerely that those who will be making the decisions for the Government to consider. will have some regard to what is being argued here today. I support fully what the hon. Member for Alyn 11.30 am and Deeside (Mark Tami) said.

Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): I Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The right hon. congratulate the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Gentleman has a deep knowledge of north-west Wales Elan Jones) on securing time for this important debate. and, indeed, Anglesey. The creation of hubs has actually I know a thing or two about north Wales, as we all do led to the closure of local police stations, so policing is in the Chamber, unlike the previous speaker, the right not even coming nearer to the people; it is moving away hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom from local communities. Does he agree that that is an Brake). I begin by quoting that esteemed organ of issue? truth, the Daily Post: “Overtime spending by North Wales Police rocketed to £3.6m Mr Llwyd: I agree fully. My late father was a station in 2011. The news comes as the force struggles to keep as many officer once on Anglesey, in the hon. Gentleman’s front-line positions as possible intact while facing the need to constituency. Clearly, things have changed and the nature make major budget cuts under the national public spending of policing has changed, but he is right. There is now a squeeze.” shake-up that has the potential to be very damaging, It then refers to overtime payment soaring— particularly in rural areas, as the hon. Member for “from £3,591 in 2010 to £5,314”— Clwyd South pointed out. Further west, in my constituency of Dwyfor Meirionnydd, this policy does not make a in one month. It goes on: great deal of sense, and there have been complaints “A Freedom of Information request revealed that the force had about it in the past few months. For example, Pwllheli increased its spending from £2.7m in 2010 to £3.6m in 2011” town council has written to the chief constable about its on overtime. Perhaps that is an inevitable consequence concerns, and I support fully its contentions. Furthermore, of having too few officers on the ground. I can understand members of Tywyn town council have likewise had that fully. I am a huge supporter of the North Wales cause to complain, and I understand fully their reason police. Close members of my family have been police for doing so as well. officers and I am not here to detract from the work that they do, which is often dangerous and thankless. Without Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Will the right them, heaven knows where we would be. hon. Gentleman give way? Nine months ago, the chief constable of North Wales police announced that there would be a radical shake-up Mr Llwyd: This will be the last intervention, because of policing in north Wales. There would be a given other hon. Members wish to speak. number of hubs—nine in all—from which rapid response vehicles and personnel would be dispatched when the Glyn Davies: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for need arose. The chief constable vowed that emergency allowing me to intervene. I congratulate him on making calls to serious crime would not be compromised after a very thoughtful speech about the management of the changes, but he warned that it was inevitable that North Wales police, an issue that is hugely important to police reaction to some low-level crime would be affected, us all. He is clearly unhappy with the arrangements that as they coped with losing 121 uniformed officers and at have been proposed for north Wales. Does he agree that least the same number of civilian staff. On the nine this issue is exactly the sort of issue that will feature in response hubs, he said: the campaign for the election of a police commissioner? “These will not improve response times but will keep them the The public will then have the chance to express their same.” view in the campaign. 225WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 226WH

Mr Llwyd: Indeed, but if there is no money in the Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). The new plans have kitty, it is a waste of time discussing it. The budget cuts had teething problems. They are clearly not working in are the problem—the core problem is that we are all his constituency, and I accept his comments. But it must meant to do much more with less. If there is no money be stated that the chief constable’s decision to change to pay for it, it does not make any sense, however clever the way that the service operated in north Wales has any candidate might be, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s been positive in some parts. In my constituency—I have point. visited the police station in Llandudno and Llanrwst, I referred to Tywyn, which is a town of approximately for example—the response to the changes has been 2,500 inhabitants. There is now one community officer positive, with the view of the officers being that they are stationed there. The nearest hub would be Dolgellau, spending less time on paperwork and getting more which is some 18 to 19 rather tortuous miles away. I support across north Wales. That is important, because wonder what the result would be if there were a major previously north Wales was, for some bizarre reason, disturbance in the town, leaving only one officer to deal split into three almost independent sections—east, central with it for at least 20 to 30 minutes before back-up and west—and little or no support passed between arrived—it does not bear thinking about. It is no wonder them. that the Police Federation in north Wales is gravely The changes have ensured that the police are able to concerned about the situation. It is unfair on individual serve north Wales as an entity. From my position, police officers who face a difficult and dangerous job at representing Aberconwy in the centre region, there has the best of times, but it is equally unfair on the citizens been an improvement, with support officers coming of Tywyn and Meirionnydd, who pay the same level of from Corwen, for example, to support officers from taxes as everybody else and can therefore reasonably Llanrwst. We should welcome that effort to ensure that expect the same level of service. we make best use of the resources. I pay tribute to the The same is true of Pwllheli, where there are chief constable, who is doing a difficult task in trying to approximately 2,760 inhabitants. The nearest hub is deal with cuts to the budget, which are not being denied Porthmadog. Again, it is a difficult drive to get there by Labour Members. We have heard the shadow Chancellor quickly, but the situation in Dwyfor is possibly even comment that he cannot guarantee a reversal of any worse when we consider that the hub is meant to service cuts. Yet in a debate such as this we get opportunistic Aberdaron at the tip of the Llyn peninsula. With the chants from Opposition Members claiming that things best will in the world, I do not know how any rapid would be significantly different if they were in power. response vehicle is possibly expected to reach Aberdaron It is important that we consider the way that police from Porthmadog in less than 40 minutes. The situation numbers grew in north Wales during Labour’s time is therefore critical, and we are almost waiting for in office. It is true that the number of police numbers in something drastic to happen before the plan is scrapped. north Wales increased by 13% between 1997 and 2000—I I will also mention the town of Blaenau Ffestiniog, pay tribute to the Labour Government for increasing which has again been denuded of police officers. Again, police numbers—but in the same period the number of a town of 3,600 inhabitants is to be served by the hub in civilian officers working for north Wales police increased Porthmadog. by 84%, so it is debatable whether resources were put on This looks like an exercise that has been dreamt up in to the front line. an office, rather than by anyone who knows the geography of north-west Wales generally, and of Dwyfor Meirionnydd Chris Ruane: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the in particular. I am pleased to be able to use this debate increase in resources is a prime reason why north Wales to voice deeply held worries and concerns on behalf of was one of the safest places to live in the whole UK? my constituents. I understand that the scheme was put in place for a trial period and is now due for review. I Guto Bebb: It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman urge the chief constable and the police authority to says that the increase in resources is necessarily the reconsider it urgently in light of the fact that, to my reason why North Wales police have performed well. knowledge, on some weekends, the old county of The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) Meirionnydd may have as few as three police officers on said that higher police numbers equated to falling crime. duty in the winter months. In the summer months, the It is tempting to say that that must be so, but during population rises eight to tenfold. This is unacceptable Labour’s time in office there was a significant period and dangerous during the winter. It is dangerous during when the number of police officers in north Wales the summer—I would say scandalous. The authority increased but crime increased and a period when the must go back to the drawing board and reconsider the number of police officers declined and crime declined. plans. There is a perception that more officers working will have an impact on crime levels, but statistics from the 11.38 am Labour party’s period in office do not necessarily support that view. My view is that the use made of those officers Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is a pleasure to is just as important as the number of officers. Similarly, serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. getting rid of waste and double practices, such as having This has been an interesting debate, but it did start three areas in north Wales that did not work together, is out in an extremely partisan manner. Indeed, many just as important as the numbers. hoteliers in Llandudno in my constituency would be The number of police officers in north Wales has amazed at the glee with which their loss of business is been reduced by 108, according to statistics that I have seen by Labour Opposition Members. To return to the seen from North Wales police, but the chief constable issue that we are debating today, we need to consider has also said that it is looking to recruit an extra the comments made by the right hon. Member for 72 officers in the next financial year. There is a tendency 227WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 228WH for the Opposition to portray everything as bad and Two hon. Members have mentioned the Conservative fragile, when in the year to September 2011 there was a party’s cancellation of the Llandudno conference on 1% decline in the total number of crimes committed in security grounds and that, somehow, Labour Members north Wales. are gleeful about that. I spent Saturday with my mother- It is dispiriting for officers in north Wales, who are in-law in Llandudno, helping the local economy and the working hard to try to deal with these issues, to be told local hotels and hostelries. I put my money where my that the police service in north Wales is failing, when we mouth is, in many ways. have seen a decline in police numbers. I am proud of Labour’s record on policing over the past 13 years. It can be said—hon. Members will know— Mark Tami: The hon. Gentleman mentions the morale that I have not always been on message and did not of front-line officers, but what does he think of the always agree with what the previous Government said, constant attack by the Government on those working in but on law and order they did what the people wanted. the back office, as if they do no work whatsoever and Every constituency Member of Parliament was asked can be dispensed with just like that? about reducing crime and improving resources for policing in their area, and the Labour Government delivered. Guto Bebb: Again, I am surprised by that comment, Those extra resources were funded in the communities. because throughout this debate I have heard Opposition For the first time, we saw police support officers on the Members saying that we must put the resources on the beat, making a difference in many areas, including front line. There is a choice to be made. If the number of prevention, detection and processing crimes. The whole officers increased by 13% in the Labour years, is there a police family was strengthened and one complemented justification for an increase of 84% in non-police officer the other. staff at that point? That question should be asked. This I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Aberconwy is not an attack, in any way, shape or form, on any (Guto Bebb) tried to pick off civilians versus front-line individuals working within the system, but we need to police officers, because the police family was delivering ask whether an 84% increase in those numbers was for communities. The back-room people have an important justified, when the number of front-line police officers to play in processing crimes to ensure that we get increased by only 13%. criminals into the courts. They are not semi-detached from front-line policing; they complement it. Albert Owen: The hon. Gentleman is using selective statistics. In addition to the police officers going, the My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd number of police community support officers was increased. (Chris Ruane), who is not in his seat at the moment, People wanted policing in the community.As a consequence said rightly that under the previous Government—I am of investing in those PCSOs in the communities, crime proud of this—north-west Wales had the highest detection came down in local communities across north Wales. rates not only in Wales but in the United Kingdom. A large rural area is difficult to police—the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and the Guto Bebb: I accept that comment. But if we include hon. Member for Aberconwy know the area that I am PCSOs and special constables in the totals, North Wales talking about—but the police overcame those difficulties police are better served now than they were during the and, in a rural area, reduced crime faster and kept it period the Labour party were in government. down lower than in many parts of the UK. It was no It is important that we discuss the context of this surprise that that happened because of the increase in debate, which is that we are facing a severe financial resources, which communities were asking for. crisis. This Government are willing to get to grips with that issue. The chief constable in north Wales is willing High and low-level crimes were increasing and the to challenge the way that things worked in the past and record of the previous Conservative Government— to take difficult decisions to try to ensure that the [Interruption.] The Liberal Democrat spokesman, the allocated funding goes further. right hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), said that he was not being partisan, but he made It is important to mention the unacceptable degree of probably the most partisan speech this morning and hypocrisy from Opposition Members on funding. They said that my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South say that a 6.9% cut from Westminster is unacceptable in (Susan Elan Jones), whom I congratulate, knew nothing this financial year, but that a cut of 6.3% from the about London policing and that he would take exception Welsh Assembly can be defended on the basis that if she intervened. She was a London councillor in the the Assembly’s funding has also been reduced. This is borough of Southwark for many years and was involved the crux of the issue. Choices and priorities have to be in the crime and disorder partnership in Peckham, so made by the Government. We see in the Opposition, she knows a little bit more about London policing than and in the performance of the Welsh Assembly, a complete the hon. Gentleman knows about north Wales policing. and utter abdication of responsibility and willingness to The title of this debate is “Policing in North Wales”, so take hard, difficult decisions. my hon. Friend is more than qualified to talk about When I get a full explanation from the shadow Chancellor that. about why and how he can save the North Wales police There would have been cuts whichever Government service, although he will not reverse a single cut that we were in office, but they would have been far more have made, I will take the arguments of Opposition selective had there been a Labour Government. Our Members more seriously. manifesto commitment was to prioritise policing and to protect its funding—the right hon. Member for Carshalton 11.46 am and Wallington smiles at that, but he wanted an extra Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): It is pleasure to serve 3,000 police officers in his manifesto although, along under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby. with student tuition fees, that commitment was dropped 229WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 230WH

[Albert Owen] total blank refusal to accept that there should be a reduction in the cost of policing in north Wales. Is his immediately. The economic climate is difficult, and party’s policy that there should be no cuts in the cost of deficit reduction and bringing down debt are important, policing? What impact will that have on other budgets, but politics is about priorities, and priorities are different bearing in mind that the shadow Chancellor has accepted between the parties. Before we went into the general that the cuts proposed by the current Government election, the priorities of the Liberal Democrats were cannot be reversed because of the economic situation? similar to those of the Labour party. The Labour party in government would have taken different decisions Albert Owen: I am certainly not saying that there and, I believe, would have strengthened policing and should be no cuts. As the hon. Member for Aberconwy kept the levels of crime down, though, yes, they would has said, there was without doubt a reduction in police have had to get rid of some posts. numbers between 2008 and 2010, but that was achieved I want to talk about north Wales in particular. We through efficiency savings. Also, the police authority in have seen a huge reduction in central funds for policing, my area made it clear what it was doing, and the local but I want to remind Members in the Chamber that people supported it because they understood it. What much of the extra policing that occurred in north Wales local people do not accept—if the hon. Member for between 2001 and 2010 was from the council tax payer. Montgomeryshire is not aware of this, he needs to talk The controversial chief constable, with the police authority, to people in his constituency—is the across-the-board put up the precept in order to have extra police on the cut to policing just because of the Government deficit beat. The choice of the local police authority was reduction plan, coupling the savage cuts with police backed by the people, and each of the town and community cuts. People wanted to make a choice, and that is the councils put up their police precept to pay for what was difficulty. originally known as the 10p bobby. Those extra police I will deal with the shadow Chancellor, because obviously have been taken away by central Government, which is the papers from the Conservative Whips keep rolling an important point. out that line. What he said was that in 2015 he will be left with higher debts and higher borrowing than we Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend also recall that it would have had in 2010, which will be a difficult situation was the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats who at and he will have to make difficult choices. However, the time were calling for more money from central I assure the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire that I Government to fund policing? will be fighting within my party to ensure that policing has a priority. I ask him and the hon. Member for Aberconwy to do the same, because rather than having Albert Owen: Absolutely.The Conservatives and Liberal this knockabout, they should stand up for policing in Democrats have changed their view. Priorities have to their local communities. be set, and our priority would have been to keep policing levels high. Guto Bebb: I wish to correct the hon. Gentleman, We have seen central Government cuts, but that cut because he must have misheard my comments. I actually has been across the board. We paid for the extra policing, said that there was a reduction in police numbers between but central Government have robbed it from us. We are 2006 and 2008, not between 2008 and 2010—those seeing a depletion in the police whom we, the council figures are correct. tax payers of north Wales, specifically paid for. We took a decision in that period that other local police authorities Albert Owen: Front-line police officers, yes, but the in Wales did not, yet the cut across the board of up to total amount including PCSOs and special constables 20% will affect north Wales as much as other police rose. The police authority made that choice, which the authorities in Wales and England. That is grossly unfair people of north Wales accepted because they saw extra to the taxpayers and constituents of north Wales. That policing on the street. Prevention of crime and reducing important point is often overlooked. the fear of crime are as important as police officers I am pleased that the Minister for Policing and Criminal tackling criminals, and the Government have overlooked Justice is present to respond, but I would have liked to that with their “one-cap-fits-all” cuts throughout the see the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, the hon. country. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who has certain Opposition politicians are not the only ones whinging. responsibilities. The Under-Secretary of State for Wales The Police Federation chairman has said that we are was a doughty campaigner for increased funding in going back to the policing levels of the 1970s, with north Wales, including a prison for north Wales, because fewer than “215 officers per 100,000”, which is a difficult he wanted to see more police on the beat and more level for the future. The reduction in the number of staff criminals in jail—in local jails—and he and I stood in north Wales has been by more than 200 but, even shoulder to shoulder to get an extra prison in Wales worse, it is projected to be 360 by 2015. It is no use located in north Wales. Now, apparently, he is no longer blaming the police authority, as Ministers suggest. The standing up for north Wales but for the Westminster chief constable of Gloucestershire, in many ways a Government cuts. It is a shame that he is not in the similar area to north Wales and to north-west Wales in Chamber, because I would have liked to look him in the particular, has said that policing is on “a cliff-edge”. He eye and told him that myself, but I will give way to his is not an Opposition politician, and he cites closed spokesperson. police stations, sold-off vehicles and the departure of senior managers and a third of the police. Glyn Davies: I always very much enjoy the hon. What else can go in the future to make the projected Gentleman’s speeches and take great note of them. The cuts that are being talked about? The answer is obviously one difficulty that I have in listening is the seemingly the front line. However the front, middle and back are 231WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 232WH defined, if we do not have the resource in the first place, 12.1 pm we cannot put it on the front line. I worry, as the right Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I pay tribute to hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd pointed out, my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan about when there are serious incidents. Since I have Elan Jones) on securing this important debate on an been a Member of Parliament, there have unfortunately issue that is dear to our hearts as elected politicians and been a number of murders and serious crimes in my to our constituents. I will not be police-bashing. The area; I know the amount of police resources used in police in north Wales have done an excellent job over such circumstances, when they are taken from elsewhere. the years, including the former chief constable, Richard If we have a thin blue line and then take police away to Brunstrom. Despite all the shenanigans and publicity- serious crime or incidents for many months, communities seeking, he put the extra funding that we provided into face a difficult period. That is why it is no coincidence front-line services. Mark Polin, the new chief constable that robbery figures have gone up by more than 60% who replaced him, is also doing an excellent job. and burglaries by some 12%; there is a link between the number of such opportunist crimes and a time of high However, things are not right in north Wales. The unemployment and social deprivation in many areas. latest statistics show that there was a 1% drop in crime, Those crimes are worrying to the individual because of but if one drills down and looks at the areas of crime, the theft and the damage to property, but also because there has been a 12% increase in household burglaries, a of the damage to people. People’s confidence goes, as 30% increase in fraud, a 10% increase in theft, and a does business confidence in towns and communities 60% increase in robbery. Those increases are directly throughout the country.Those factors cannot be separated attributable to the cuts in the number of police officers out. and back-office staff. North Wales used to be the safest place to live in the United Kingdom, and if we are too complacent and do not stand up and be counted, and if Mark Tami: My hon. Friend has mentioned the we do not challenge the coalition Government, we will increase in the burglary rate of 12%. Within that, not be doing our job as Opposition MPs. The Opposition particularly worrying is the number of first-time have been told not to be party political about the offenders—their first offence is burglary, whereas in the matter, but it was a political party that made the cuts. past that crime was seen as something people perhaps That political party stood on a manifesto of putting graduated to, so we are seeing a worrying trend. 3,000 extra police officers on the beat, but it cut the number by 16,000. Those political decisions were made Albert Owen: I understand that other people want to by political parties, and Labour MPs in opposition will speak, so I will draw to a close. Such crimes are serious hold the Government to account. and they have gone up out of proportion to the others. I accept the figures of an overall reduction in serious Tom Brake: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? crimes, but some figures are worrying, because there are now more victims of crime, who have had their property Chris Ruane: I will not give way yet. I have a few more attacked, burgled and robbed, with theft and fraud messages for the right hon. Gentleman. He stood up going up. Many people are now feeling the effects of the and said that he was party political for 13 years, and reduction in policing, so one cannot just say that reported that he hoped he had done a good job in holding the crime is down. then Government to account. We are going to be party political, and we will hold the right hon. Gentleman and his party and the other coalition party to account. [MR EDWARD LEIGH in the Chair] I shall conclude on that important point. Like many Tom Brake: I have no problem whatever with the hon. astute Members of Parliament, I go into communities Gentleman providing scrutiny. That is the Opposition’s and talk to people. Many people in rural communities role, but they must also provide solutions. say that it is a waste of time calling the police because by the time they arrive, the perpetrator of the crime has Chris Ruane: I will provide solutions. I will come to disappeared. People tell me that it is pointless calling them. When my right hon. Friend the Member for the police and reporting incidents to them. That is Delyn (Mr Hanson), the shadow Minister, announced worrying, and we should all be concerned about it. an inquiry into the future of policing, the Minister said Reported crime may fall, but coupled with that there that that was political abdication. Now is the time to will be an increase in robberies and burglaries because have an inquiry, as we are going into a double-dip of the scale of resources that have been taken away. recession with massive cuts. Now is the time to analyse the issues facing a modern police force in the 21st I urge the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice century, but the Minister called that political abdication. to consider the matter seriously. Instead of imposing across-the-board cuts next week, he should consider Another issue is the decline in the number of criminals rurality as a special case, and put the rural grant back caught and prosecuted. In north Wales, there was a into the policing figures. In north-west Wales we have drop of 11.5% between April and November last year. I one of the best records, and the Government are snatching do not believe that that is the fault of the police. North that away from us because of how they are imposing the Wales is a big geographical area. It requires a lot of cuts across the board. I appeal to the Minister to stand policing and resources, and a lot of funding. up for rural areas because crime is out of kilter with the I have given the right hon. Member for Carshalton rest of the country, and areas such as mine are going and Wallington (Tom Brake), a bit of a roasting, and from best to worst through no fault of the police on the the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) deserves ground, who do an excellent job. I pay tribute to them the same. He did not stand up for his constituency when and to the chief constable in these challenging times. his party pulled out of holding its spring conference at 233WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 234WH

[Chris Ruane] Chris Ruane: Hear, hear. That is excellent chairing, Mr Leigh. I agree with every word you said. Llandudno, and he has not stood up for policing in In other areas, such as youth unemployment and north Wales. The cuts are dangerous, and are having a youth crime, the Rhyl city strategy in my constituency dangerous impact in our communities. All he can say is put 420 young people back to work in 18 months, but to ask what the Labour party did. He and his Government that was ended within three weeks of the coalition are in power now, and they are implementing cuts too Government coming to power because of political spite. far and too fast. It was an effective Labour interventionist policy, and it Guto Bebb: I said that it is easy to spout platitudes was ended because of political spite. Since then, we have from the Opposition Benches. The truth of the matter is been promised a Work programme but, as I suggested that the Labour party has not explained how it would to the Prime Minister last week, it is a doesn’t work deal with the current deficit and ensure that the cuts in programme, because the number of people the Government north Wales would be avoided in view of the shadow said would go back to work will not do so. We have Chancellor’s comments that he would change any spending massive youth unemployment and massive police cuts cuts undertaken by the Government. in north Wales. We have seen what happened in the inner cities—riots—and the coalition parties should be Chris Ruane: The hon. Gentleman’s complacency is very careful about making such cuts. unbelievable, as is that from his colleague, the junior I pay tribute to the coverage of this issue by the Daily Minister at the Wales Office, the Under-Secretary of Post, in both its reporting and its political commentary, State for Wales, the hon. Member for Clwyd West and I will conclude with an editorial from 8 December: (Mr Jones). When faced with these horrendous statistics, “The blame for any fall in standards arising from these budget he said that it was most important that crime continues cuts will rest with the Government, not the chief constable.” to fall in Wales, and that the latest figures showed that recorded crime is down 7%, which is even better than the 4% fall for England and Wales. That is complacency. 12.10 pm The Home Secretary did not stand up for policing Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I welcome you to during the cuts review. Other Ministers stood up for the Chair, Mr Leigh, and I thank the previous Chair, their Departments and their cuts were lowered. The Mr Crausby, for his chairmanship in the early part of chief police officers said they could cope with 12% cuts, the debate. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the and that was what the Labour agreed to. Our answer Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones). She has was to listen to what the professionals had to say, and to raised an important issue and generated a significant back them with 12% cuts. That was our answer then, debate. and that is our answer now. The Tory and Liberal cuts Contributions from my hon. Friends the Members are too far, too fast. There are also cuts in court costs. for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), for Ynys Môn (Albert Denbigh magistrates court and Rhyl family court have Owen), for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), and for both closed in my constituency. The prison population Wrexham (Ian Lucas) have highlighted the concerns felt is at an all-time high. We are coming to a double-dip by their communities, and I also pay tribute to the right recession, and we know that crime patterns follow hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) for employment patterns. his concern about western north Wales. We have also The cuts are wrong; the pacing is wrong; the timing is heard interesting contributions from the hon. Members wrong; and the scale is wrong. The pacing is wrong for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and for Montgomeryshire because the cuts are front-loaded. All the cuts are (Glyn Davies), and from the right hon. Member for coming to suit the political timetable of a general Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). He was helpfully election in 2015. The Government are front-loading the reminded of his election pledge to support 3,000 extra cuts and introducing them thick and fast to avoid the officers during this Parliament, although he has since political consequences in 2015. The timing is wrong. We voted for cuts that over the past 18 months have led to a may be going into a double-dip recession when crime reduction in police numbers of some 8,000 officers. rates will rise, but the policing cuts are bigger than ever. I pay tribute to the chair and members of North The scale is wrong, because 12% is acceptable, but 20% Wales police authority, and to Chief Constable Mark is not. Polin and his team. They have done a professional job Hon. Members have asked what Labour would do. over many years to ensure that north Wales is still one When Labour left power, unemployment was coming of the safest places in the UK in which to live. There has down, confidence was going up, and growth was going been great police support, good detection rates and up. Since then, all three have gone in opposite directions. sound community-based policing, and the engagement That has led to £158 billion of extra deficit, which is the at levels of inspector, constable, sergeant and police responsibility of the coalition parties. That is what the community support officer has been helpful to Members shadow Chancellor meant when he made his comments. of Parliament and to my constituents. He cannot plan for 2015 and say that he will not cut this or that. We do not know how much more of a pig’s ear North Wales is a challenging area to police. It contains the coalition Government will make. How high will large rural areas, two languages and strong urban areas the £158 billion go? Will it perhaps go to £258 billion? where crime is driven by urban challenges. There is also Our solution would not have been to have an extra the cross-border challenge involving crime that potentially £158 billion of extra deficit. enters north Wales from parts of north-west England. There are the ports of Holyhead and Mostyn, which is Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Could we in my constituency, and a range of other issues that please have less mumbling from hon. Members. They create a complex and challenging model with which may try to intervene if they wish. North Wales police authority must deal. I speak today 235WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 236WH as shadow Police Minister, but also, proudly, as the Chris Ruane: The only way to get rid of a police Member of Parliament for Delyn, which falls within the officer is to force them out after 30 years under regulation area of North Wales police authority. A19. When those police officers retire, however, they The partnership of North Wales police authority are on a pension that is two-thirds of their pay. Will my with local councils and Members of the Welsh Assembly— right hon. Friend say how that is a saving? who, as has been mentioned, were re-elected in May last year on a pledge to support 500 police community Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. Before he support officers—is important, and the authority’s replies, I will ask Mr Hanson to conclude his remarks co-operation with neighbouring forces has led to a by 12.20 pm in order to give the Minister a chance to reduction in crime over the past 10 years. At the start of reply. the last Labour Government’s term in office, there were around 65,000 crimes each year in north Wales. By the Mr Hanson: I can assure you of that, Mr Leigh. last year of the Labour Government, that had fallen to Thirty police officers in north Wales have been forced to 44,919 crimes—a reduction of over 30% that meant leave under regulation A19 because of reductions in 21,000 fewer victims per year. As has been mentioned, policing in the Budget. That is worrying, but I am most victims feel 100% of the crime committed against them, concerned that between March 2010 and September and to have 21,000 fewer crimes is a compliment to the 2011 we have lost 85 police officers in north Wales. I am efforts of North Wales police authority and the Labour also worried because Her Majesty’s inspectorate of Government. constabulary—these are not my figures—suggests that we will lose 207 officers during the course of this That reduction in crime was due to a range of issues Parliament. The grant settlement for 2011-12 is £49.6 million such as new ways of working, innovation, the previous but, if approved next week, that will drop to £46.2 million Government’s approach to community safety and attempts by 2012-13. Projections for North Wales police authority to make authorities work with the police, better co-operation mean that by 2015 the grant will be £43.7 million a and prevention, closer working partnerships, improvements year—a cut of almost £6 million. in CCTV, an increase in DNA testing, automatic police I challenge anybody to explain how we can cut £6 number plate recognition to look at cars crossing the million from policing budgets in north Wales and make border, improvements in vehicle safety, station that up solely from back-office savings and other efficiencies. improvements, a whole range of criminal justice measures, When in government I supported efficiency measures in and increased confidence in policing and co-operation procurement, overtime, improving back-office support, with the communities as a whole. I contend, however—this adopting single uniforms, IT systems and a range of is the central argument of the debate—that one of the other issues. However, the level of cuts that we now biggest issues in helping to support policing and reduce face, and which we will vote on next week in the House, crime over that period concerned the number of officers is dramatic. The cuts will impact on police morale and, who were on the beat and visibly engaged with their more importantly, on the ability of the police to fight communities. crime in north Wales. In 1996, the last year of the previous Conservative Police spending per capita over the past year in north Government, 1,378 officers walked the beat and worked Wales has reduced from £148 to £137. The changes now in North Wales police authority. By the last year of the being implemented have led to consultations on police last Labour Government, 1,578 officers were in place—there station closures—including at Mostyn, Flint, Holywell, were 200 additional officers in north Wales. Additionally, and Mold in my constituency—due to officer numbers. as has been mentioned by my hon. Friends and the right Now, for the first time, crime is rising. The figures hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, 159 PCSOs presided over by the Minister last week showed an 11% were put in place in north Wales during the last five overall rise in levels of personal crime. In 2011, north years of the Labour Government, to help to support Wales saw worrying increases in crime: a 60% rise in levels of policing and visibility on the ground. That was cases of robbery, a 12% rise in instances of burglary, coupled with a rise in the number of special constables, and an 11% rise in sexual offences. which again helped to increase police visibility. There was a major increase in police numbers at the same time As well as cuts to the budget, there is the uncertainty as a major reduction in crime, and 21,000 victims of caused by the elections of police commissioners on crime were saved. 15 November this year. We will participate in that experiment as it is the law of the land, and we will fight that election, but I still worry about the future of Guto Bebb: On a point of accuracy, is it not the case policing. that the number of special constables in north Wales fell I believe, however, that there is another way. The significantly between 1997 and 2010? Labour party agrees with HMRC’s projection that a 12% cut is realistic when looking at overtime, procurement, Mr Hanson: I would contend that. When I was the modernisation, collaboration and back-office procedures Minister responsible for policing, I encouraged and set and, as the Minister knows, we would have done that a target for an increase in the number of special constables were we in government. The figures he produces for over the course of this Parliament. The hon. Gentleman north Wales, however, show a cut in funding of £5.9 million cannot escape the fact that, during the last Labour over the next two years. That will lead to further pressures Government, there were 200 more police officers and on the chief constable, further difficulties in fighting 159 PCSOs in north Wales. After the first year of this crime and, in my view, a poorer service for my constituents Government we have seen a worrying fall in police and people in north Wales. numbers for the first time, and we are likely to see a The Minister needs to think again. He has an opportunity. further fall over the next few years. This very day, he has announced an extra £90 million 237WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 238WH

[Mr Hanson] Let me return to the point that I was making, because it was important. I was asking hon. Members whether for the police force in London—coincidentally, just they thought that in north Wales there would be no before a London election this year. If he can do it for precept rises in the next three years. No hon. Member London, he can review the position of north Wales for appears to think that there will be no precept rises. next week, and I will urge my hon. Friends next week to Clearly, they all think that there will be precept rises. scrutinise seriously the Minister’s proposals. Even if there are no precept rises in the next three years, the real-terms reduction in funding is just over 15%—not 12.20 pm 20%, but just over 15%. That is a cash reduction of 7%. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Susan Elan Jones Will the right hon. Gentleman give Herbert): I congratulate the hon. Member for Clwyd way? South (Susan Elan Jones) on securing the debate. She referred to the fact that she asked me a number of Nick Herbert: Let me complete the point and then I questions on the Floor of the House about police will give way to the hon. Lady. Let us say that there are funding. On the most recent occasion, she referred to precept rises in line with the Office for Budget Responsibility me as the Prime Minister. That is the only nice thing forecast. That is entirely a matter for the police authorities, that has been said to me since I became the Police so we do not know, but if there is a precept increase Minister. I was grateful to her for the brief compliment along those lines in the next three years, the real-terms that she paid me, even though it was done in error. That reduction in funding in that period will be just over said, I regret the way in which she chose to introduce 10%. Translated into cash terms, that means that the the debate. She kicked off with a partisan attack on the force will have 1.2% less cash at the end of that period Conservative party. than it does now. That is the devastating impact that hon. Members are claiming for force funding. Chris Ruane: And the Liberals. Susan Elan Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is right: Nick Herbert: No, the hon. Lady kicked off with an I once made a slip of the tongue and referred to him as attack on the Conservative party and she made it clear the Prime Minister. I think that that is probably because that that was to be the tenor of her speech. I confused his complacency and arrogance with that of I would like to deal with a few factual matters. The the current incumbent. Will the Minister please answer hon. Lady kept talking about 20% cuts. She said that the point that I raised and the point that Chief Constable there would be 20% less money; she talked about 20% Mark Polin raised—that people had no choice whatever budget cuts. That is, of course, the persistent implication in the decisions that were made? Can I bring the Minister of those on the Opposition Benches. It is correct that in back to some of the real questions that people have the spending review there has been a 20% reduction in asked, rather than the Tory partisan sophistry that he is central Government funding, but all the Opposition giving us today? Members know perfectly well that police forces are not funded just by central Government and therefore it is Nick Herbert: I withdraw my kind remarks to the simply not the case that there are 20% budget cuts in the hon. Lady. She dished it up and she should expect to get North Wales force or any other force in the country. It is it back. I can assure her, if she wants a serious debate important that I make that clear, because the difference about police funding, police organisation and how police is very substantial. forces can rise to the challenge, that no one is more I wonder how many hon. Members think that there anxious to engage in that serious, measured debate than will be no precept rise in north Wales in the next three I am. Indeed, I think that it is too absent from the years. I ask them to intervene on me if they think that House of Commons. It is, however, going on in policing there will be no precept rises. There is no intervention. in the real world, because out there, people are having Clearly, none of the Opposition Members thinks that to deal with that challenge. She, however, chose to there will be no rises. introduce this debate in an entirely different manner—in a partisan, often cheap manner. She started off in those Chris Ruane rose— terms, and I will therefore give her back what she dished up to Government Members, without apology. Nick Herbert: Oh, I have an intervention from the I was, however, making a serious point. I was making hon. Gentleman. the point that the spending reduction—

Chris Ruane: Can the Minister answer the intervention Albert Owen: Will the Minister give way? that I made on my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson)? How is it a saving if an officer who Mark Tami: Will the Minister give way? has been employed for 30 years is forced out of his job and paid a pension that is two thirds of his pay to sit at Nick Herbert: Hang on a minute. The spending reduction home doing nothing? For an extra third, he could have that this force confronts ranges in the field of a real-terms been kept in his job. reduction of 10% to 15%, or a cash reduction of 1.2% to 7%. Nick Herbert: That is a completely different point, but the hon. Gentleman should ask himself why chief Mark Tami rose— constables are taking decisions about the early retirement of a minority of officers if they think that that will not Nick Herbert: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman save them money. of course. 239WH Policing (North Wales)31 JANUARY 2012 Policing (North Wales) 240WH

Mark Tami: The Minister keeps bringing down the that are already raising more from local taxpayers by size of the cut that there actually is. I do not believe that saying that they would receive even less central grant he is right, but if he is, why does he think that North than would otherwise be the case. The expectation of all Wales police and, indeed, all police forces are cutting chief constables and police authorities at the time was and feel that they have to cut front-line policing? that there would be an even reduction in funding. We decided to apply an even cut as a consequence. I hope Nick Herbert: I will come to the issue of—[Interruption.] that the hon. Gentleman will understand—he may shake I will come directly to that issue. We have always said his head in disagreement—that that was a proper that the reductions in spending will mean that there will justification for that decision. It would have been unfair be a smaller work force. No one has ever disputed that. to penalise local taxpayers even more for the fact that The issue is how those reductions are managed and they were contributing higher amounts than was the what the impact then is on policing. I completely reject, case in many other areas. and have consistently rejected, the binary link that hon. I want to make another point to the hon. Member for Members make that suggests that any reduction in Clwyd South, in the short time left to me, on the facts of public spending will mean a reduction in the quality of what is happening. There was a reduction in police the service or that any reduction in headcount will officers in north Wales of 3.4%, according to the latest mean a reduction in the quality of the service. That is figures, in the year to September 2011. That is slightly the fundamental difference between Government Members lower than the national reduction. The reduction in staff and Opposition Members. We do not make that binary is greater than that; staff are often overlooked in relation link. We are interested in the quality of the service and to these decisions. The hon. Lady’s case is that any how well resources are deployed. Until Opposition Members reduction in funding is bound to produce an increase in understand that point and start talking about value for crime, but of course the facts have not been going with money and wise spending rather than big spending, her. The facts would not support the case that she they will continue to be in the position that they are in. makes even if it were intellectually a consistent case. On the latest figures, total recorded offences in north Wales Albert Owen: The Minister is generous about giving in exactly the same period—to September 2011—were way. He talked about the precept and council tax. Does down 1%. There are, of course, particular crime categories he think it fair that the people of north Wales, through within that where that is not the case, but equally there their council taxes, have paid extra into other forces but are other categories where crime levels have gone down are getting the same level of cuts from central Government? by bigger margins than that. Does he want to balance the situation? If north Wales It is very important that the force keeps on top of taxpayers paid less through their council tax, would he crime. I spoke to the chief constable this morning, and increase the central Government allocation to them in he reassured me. I will quote him. He believes that the the interest of fairness? force is “on track to hit a three-year reduction target of 6.3%.” Nick Herbert: The hon. Gentleman makes a serious That is the right ambition. The simple point is this: point. We can discuss it further in the forthcoming there is no simple link between spending levels, officer funding debate. I am happy to answer it. In taking numbers and our ability to fight crime. It depends on decisions about damping, we had to consider whether effective organisation, good management and effective to make an adjustment for those forces that raise more deployment of resources. It is about— from council tax. I considered that matter very carefully and it was a difficult decision, but in the end we decided Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. We now move that it was not fair to penalise those local populations to the next debate. 241WH 31 JANUARY 2012 Social Mobility 242WH

Social Mobility Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): My hon. Friend has done far more than she has said, and has produced a book, “If Chloe Can”, a careers book to help inspire 12.30 pm people. It was turned into a theatre production, which is Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): It is a pleasure to now touring the country, and I and several of our hon. bring this debate to the House today and to serve under Friends went to the premiere. I saw at first hand how your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. many children from poorer backgrounds were inspired by the role models on stage that day, whom my hon. Social mobility, the advancement of the individual Friend brought along. Does she therefore agree that a irrespective of birth, gender, colour or class, was the key to introducing social mobility is to get great role underlying reason I entered politics. My inspiration for models to inspire people and show them that people that was not so much politicians, I am sorry to say, but from their background can achieve success in life? the great industrial philanthropists of the 18th and 19th centuries, with their business ethics, worker engagement and strong principles. I grew up in Liverpool, so for me Esther McVey: My hon. Friend makes a strong point. one person stood out above all others: William Hesketh That was one of the key things that came up when I Lever, the founder of Lever Brothers, who, incidentally, went round schools on Merseyside, asking children did go into politics. William started work at his father’s what they needed to know, and what answers they grocery business in Bolton, working his way up the wanted. Some asked, “How did you ever know what ranks before setting up his own business. Perhaps it was you wanted to become?” or “How do you know what that journey, from shop floor to business ownership, jobs and opportunities are out there?” More importantly, that shaped his outlook on life, which was that anyone they said they wanted to see people like them, from could achieve, given the right support and conditions. their backgrounds, who had achieved. I put together a Lever’s belief in others and his ability to achieve magazine and distributed it free to more than 5,000 girls inspired me, and it is that notion of support allowing in Merseyside, and the people in it were role models social mobility that we need to engender in society, such as Jo Salter, the first lady from the UK to become allowing for personal fulfilment and opportunities for a fighter pilot; Louise Greenhalgh, the first to become a all. Business at its best can do it, and so can politicians. bomb disposal officer; Debbie Moore, the first woman That said, everyone has a role to play: parents, teachers to set up a plc; Lucinda Ellery, a single mum of three and community leaders. All can offer support, kids who has an international company; Jayne Torvill, encouragement, hope and advice. In Britain today social the ice skater; and Emily Cummins, the inventor. All mobility has never been so remote for so many people, those people managed to overcome personal adversity with only one in five young people from the poorest to achieve, irrespective of where they came from. That backgrounds achieving five good GCSEs including maths was what made me look into character types and personality and English, compared with three quarters of those traits, which seemed so much more influential on where from the richest families. Only one in four boys from someone ended up than background or grades. Ambition, working class backgrounds gets a professional or managerial focus, being a team player, being positive and being able job, and just one in nine of those from low-income to complete a task, were key, and we need to tell backgrounds reaches the top income quartile, whereas children about those things, which give them hope. almost 50% of those with parents in the top income They do not need to know that they came from a certain quartile stay there. background. They need to know that they need inner strength to achieve. Such lack of social mobility is damaging for those individuals, who are never able or allowed to fulfil their potential, for their families, the community and the Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I congratulate the country. The personal waste is tragic and, in the cold hon. Lady on bringing this matter to the House. I hope light of day, to a number-crunching statistician, so is she will comment on social mobility for people who are the economic waste, which must surely act as a wake-up disabled, and on the need for public transport to enable call to politicians of all parties to do something. One them to go where they want to be. Does she agree, and study has estimated the economic benefits of creating a will she comment? more highly skilled work force at £150 billion a year by 2050—an additional 4% of GDP; and there is evidence Esther McVey: I will make one comment, because I that the demand for skilled workers currently outstrips worked with people who were able-bodied, and with supply, so there are jobs out there at the top that cannot others who were not so able-bodied. One in particular be filled. who was a huge inspiration to me was a young girl I have personal knowledge on the matter in question, called Shelly Woods, who I hope will get an Olympic coming from an area where I saw only too clearly the gold in the Paralympics. She was supported by other extra hurdles that put achievement a pace or two further people and thought she could achieve, even though she away from people—although I also lived among a few had always wanted to do sport as an able-bodied person. startling exceptions who managed to defy the odds and She became paralysed in an accident playing hide and become socially mobile. It was for that reason that I seek, when she fell out of a tree, and has lived both as went back to university to study corporate governance an able-bodied person and as someone who is not and wrote a paper on the character types and personality able-bodied. Her story was poignant, and she talked traits of those who succeeded, irrespective of background, about the vital strength and support of teachers and as well as interviewing more than 500 school kids from family members. I do not know whether I can give a tough areas, to see what support and guidance they felt clear answer to the hon. Gentleman’s point—I am sure they needed to succeed. I hope today that I can bring that the Minister can—but I hear what he says; the some personal knowledge to the debate. support he speaks of is needed. 243WH Social Mobility31 JANUARY 2012 Social Mobility 244WH

It is important to look in the round at what can be rich and poor appears by the age three, which puts into achieved. The coalition Government are doing that, sharp relief the need for support for parenting in the because social mobility will not be achieved by a single family? initiative. It is a question of a host of interventions, providing small steps at various stages in someone’s life, Esther McVey: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. to enable them to climb up. Social mobility appears to The coalition Government are right to introduce new have stagnated in the UK in the past 30 years. Children’s nursery care for toddlers. There will be 15 hours of free educational outcomes are still overwhelmingly tied to early education a week for all two-year-olds from poor their parents’ income. The OECD published “A Family homes, which will help 240,000 disadvantaged children. Affair: Intergenerational Social Mobility across OECD The pupil premium for disadvantaged children in England’s Countries” as part of “Going for Growth 2010”; it schools will be worth £600 per pupil per year. shows the United Kingdom as among the countries Today, I want to dwell on the sciences not just because where socio-economic background appears to have the the Minister for Universities and Science is present but largest influence on students’ performance. Although because it is a passion of mine. An education in the initiatives have been introduced in the past 30 years, it sciences can promote social mobility. As chair of the appears there has been little success. Chemical Industries Association, I hear on a daily basis about the need for more science students, technicians, Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con): engineers and scientists. The jobs are there, but we do I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing the not have the children to fill them. Moreover, they are debate to the House. Does she agree that more effort high-paying, life-long jobs with futures. Only last week, needs to be put into boosting self-confidence and self-esteem I was promoting science in schools with the Chemical in children? As she knows, those are prerequisites for Industry Education Centre and one of the companies mobility, success, and the goal that she is describing. present admitted that it had taken on 10 post-graduate Assuming that the importance of self-confidence is chemistry places, and, sadly, only one of them went to accepted, does she perhaps also believe that school somebody from the UK—such is the lack of those in subjects such as music, drama, art, sport and reading the UK with suitable qualifications. out loud in class may need to be given upward value? I hear such stories on a weekly and even a daily basis. That is not at all to put a negative slant on the baccalaureate People comment not just about what is happening on idea or the education policies that we are putting forward, the jobs front but about science education itself. David but it is to underline the importance of the issues in Braben, who is known for computer games such as Elite question. and Rollercoaster Tycoon, said: “We have become a nation of consumers rather than creators Esther McVey: I do indeed believe that self confidence in terms of technology in education, and this has implications is crucial. In fact, I led a debate on confidence for girls further down the line.” in particular. There is a lot of evidence, both academic Eric Schmidt of Google had a withering summation of and from Ofsted, that we need to encourage that, which the British system, saying that it has forgone teaching is why I am so impressed with our national citizenship computer programmes in schools. He said: service in which kids from all backgrounds come together to get involved in team play and outdoor pursuits. The “I was flabbergasted to learn that today computer science isn’t even taught as standard in UK schools...Your IT curriculum 30 children from the Wirral who participated last year focuses on teaching how to use software, but gives no insight into said that it was a life-changing experience and that it how it’s made.” really boosted their confidence. Yes, confidence needs The president of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic to be developed both inside and outside school. Engineers, Moshe Kam, said that there were systematic We need to look at social mobility as a whole and failures in the UK education system, which has serious consider the various interventions that can be made knock-on effects for the economy. over a life cycle. I welcome the fact that the social justice The fact that our nation, which created and advanced agenda and the social mobility agenda have come together the computer, has now become a nation of consumers is with an emphasis on fairness and life fairness. Family absolutely outrageous. Therefore, how we teach the support and support growing up are crucial. subject is vital, which is why I welcome the determination The Department for Communities and Local of the Secretary of State for Education to have five core Government found that 120,000 families in England subjects taught to everyone in school. We have to start have complex social, health and economic problems off by pushing five core subjects to everybody from and it has designated an early family intervention every background, and not just to those who come from programme. Yes, I know that it will cost £448 million to a slightly wiser professional background. There must be support such families, but it is in an attempt to break up an imperative in the school system. a never-ending cycle of dependency and under-achievement that ultimately costs the country £9 billion a year. We Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I know that therefore have not only the evidence to show that we my hon. Friend is a doughty fighter on this subject. need to take up such a programme to help the lives of Does she remember from our conversations after her people, which so often can be forgotten when we look at “Workhouse to Westminster”paper that I too can claim numbers, but the economic imperative to ensure that we to have descended from people who were in a workhouse? push it through. On the issue of the E-bac, she is right to say that we must ensure that we spread these core subjects as widely Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): Does my as possible. However, does she also agree that we must hon. Friend agree that even beyond the 120,000 most accept that a lot of these kids who will take on these troubled families throughout our society, the gap between subjects go back to very disturbed backgrounds and 245WH Social Mobility31 JANUARY 2012 Social Mobility 246WH

[Andrew Percy] of the Liverpool university technical college will be the Wirral university technical college. [Interruption.] I difficult home lives? They do not get the same support notice that the Minister is smiling there. All that is key. that someone in a more middle class school might get. I want to mention, as an aside, the significant effect We must be careful about what we wish for and we must that Brian Cox has had on the uptake of physics and ensure that proper support is available to those kids to maths, so much so that the president of the Institute of do their best in those subjects. Physics, Professor Sir Peter Knight, has talked about the Cox effect. He has inspired new physicists and new Esther McVey: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. mathematicians, so much so that applications to Surrey We must ensure that we give those children the support university this year for physics have gone up by 40%. I that they need. I am delighted with the new university mention that because how we communicate our message technical colleges that Lord Baker, Lord Adonis and is key. Brian Cox had a platform: television and the Peter Mitchell are fighting for because they could provide media. People found him exciting, innovative and people with a startling difference in their life. The interesting, and they went and did it. timetable starts at 8.30 in the morning and ends at 5 o’clock. It does not matter whether someone comes Mr Edward Leigh (in the Chair): Order. It is entirely from a difficult background or has a difficult home life, up to the hon. Lady for how long she speaks, but there because they do their homework in school. is only 10 minutes left for this debate, and she may want to leave some time for the Minister. I know so many bright children who need an application for their education. For so long, we have learned a Esther McVey: Thank you, Mr Leigh, for pointing subject in isolation without really knowing where it is that out. I am just about to come to my questions. going. The university technical colleges are addressing that issue. Yes, they are academic, which is excellent, but I want to know about our communication strategy. the fact that they have a longer day and a longer week How are we going to reach out to the kids whom we means that the pupils will have 30% extra time to do want to help and support, not just to the people who are projects for companies and to mix with people whom already going to get it? It is key that we talk about it not they had never mixed with before, which goes back to only in policy—it is not just about words, but about the issue of those vital real life role models. deeds and actions. I want to mention the Speaker, who will hold an event for me on social mobility tonight, for I am glad that we are at last having a discussion about 150 different people who have all turned their lives going to university and encouraging people to ask, “Is around, from business, drama and the arts. He is also that really best for me or is an apprenticeship better? Do giving Back Benchers a voice—he has introduced the I really need to get a job?” The Office for National Speaker’s parliamentary placement scheme, in which Statistics reports that we now have more than 1.3 million 10 people from different backgrounds are having a new graduates who earn less than the average wage for look on life. I have one, and I want him to be known someone who has been educated to A-level standard. here: Luke Shaw Harvey from Stoke. He is working Did university really benefit those people, or did they with me, and I think it is important. feel pushed into going to university by quotas for schools? Did a lack of knowledge lead them on to that journey How will we co-ordinate what we are doing? How are to university? Did university support them in the way we following it through? How are we looking at the that it should? impact? What is our media strategy? How are we going to promote science to children? I see science as a great According to the recruitment agency Adecco, one in enabler for everyone. What are our careers advice and five employers says that school leavers make better opportunities? How will we know about and promote workers than university graduates. It is crucial to be the success stories, so that they are part of the cycle of able to stop for just a second and think, “What is it that social mobility? I want out of life? What can I do and have the support there?” We should not limit our options at a young age because we did not take the subjects that we would need 12.51 pm later on in life. When I was at school, if we did not know The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David what to do, our teachers would say, “Study science for Willetts): Thank you, Mr Leigh, for protecting the as long as you can because you can do anything with a Government’s interests by giving me an opportunity to science O-level”— I am giving my age away now. If respond to the large number of extremely pertinent youngsters study science at GCSE or A-level, they can questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for always do something. By the way, the lynchpin is chemistry, Wirral West (Esther McVey). We all know how committed which is something that we are not always told. she personally is to the cause of social mobility. I have University technical colleges are brilliant. I have read read the accounts of “If Chloe Can”, and clearly that is the JCB college booklet and seen what the very first exactly the type of initiative that is needed to raise university technical college in Staffordshire is doing. aspirations and for young people to know what they For the children, the experience has been life changing. can achieve regardless of their background, and I Some were not doing well in school and feel that they congratulate her on that. have been given a second opportunity. A life sciences I also welcome the interventions from my hon. Friends. university technical college is coming to north Liverpool, I think that my hon. Friend the Member for East which is associated with the university of Liverpool. Hampshire (Damian Hinds) is the chair of the all-party Therefore, it will be linked with the university and with parliamentary group on social mobility, and it is great business, including Unilever, Novartis, Redx Pharma, to see him present in the Chamber. My hon. Friends the Bristol Myers Squibb and Provexis. Hot on the heels Members for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), 247WH Social Mobility31 JANUARY 2012 Social Mobility 248WH for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Brigg and Goole of evidence is pretty clear on this—young people from (Andrew Percy) also made important interventions. more disadvantaged backgrounds over-achieve compared My hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole with others. It is the first stage in which instead of suggested the exciting sub-heading of “Workhouse to falling further behind, they start catching up. That is Westminster”—it is good to see that the Minister responsible why it is important that we do everything we can to for the workhouse, my right hon. Friend the Member ensure access to university, which the coalition is committed for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), has just arrived to. in the Chamber. “Workhouse to Westminster” is the Although the decision to go to university or not has motif for our debate today. to be for an individual, and we want more information The challenge that we have in improving social mobility, for young people as they make their choice, so that they which my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West can decide whether going is the right thing for them, painted vividly, is one that the coalition is committed to nevertheless, I offer to my hon. Friend some figures: on addressing. Probably the most important single document average, graduates earn £32,000 a year, while on average, in which we have set out our policies is “Opening non-graduates earn £19,000 a year. The averages are Doors, Breaking Barriers: A Strategy for Social Mobility”, pretty compelling. which was published last April. It had the important My hon. Friend referred particularly to science and feature of tackling all the different stages of a life cycle, asked me what we could do on that. There is an excellent and it showed that at each stage, we had to raise our initiative of STEMNET ambassadors. These are people performance. We have already heard, from the interventions, who have made practical careers in the sciences, who about the importance of the early years, and we recognise may have built up a business or may be working as that. That is why we are committed to a new entitlement scientists. There are 28,000 of them, 40% of whom are of 15 hours a week of free early education for two-year-olds, women; it is important to get the gender mix. Again, in order to try to tackle the problem in that area. they go around to schools, science fairs and elsewhere Coming to school years, the coalition is delivering the to explain what they have achieved as engineers, scientists pupil premium, which for next year will be worth £600 a or managers, drawing on their expertise and communicating year for pupils from tougher backgrounds. The excellent it to young people. free schools policy is already working, with new free schools being set up. Rising to my hon. Friend’s specific There was an intervention particularly about disabled challenge of communication, we also have “Speakers people. While we sometimes focus exclusively on social for Schools”and a related programme, “Inspiring Futures”, background and access to university, we have made it which aim to get 100,000 people into schools and clear in the letters that we have sent to the Office for colleges to talk about their jobs and career routes. The Fair Access that it should look at other things as well. challenge is not just about aspiration—sometimes people One that we specifically identified is proper arrangements have the aspiration, but they do not know how to fulfil for disabled students, so that they have an opportunity their aspiration or understand the routes to get from to learn and do not suffer from excessive drop-out rates. where they are to what they want to be. Having people My hon. Friend also talked about other examples of who have taken a route through to achieving their what could be achieved. She was right to refer to the ambition in a certain career arrive in a school or college Speaker’s parliamentary placement scheme. It is important to describe it with practical examples is important to that people have a fair opportunity of internships. We tackle the communication challenge that she identified. are clear that if young people are in employment, they I recognise that universities, which are my particular should be properly paid for it. The Government attach responsibility, are only one of the routes into a well-paid a lot of importance to that. job, a career and a fulfilling life. It is equally important As well as the Speaker’s parliamentary placement that people have the opportunity of apprenticeships, scheme, we should also remember—I suspect that this which is why the coalition is delivering 100,000 extra also applies to several Members present—the Social apprenticeships. We have achieved that in our first year, Mobility Foundation, which also finances people to and with the excellent leadership of my colleague, the come to work in the House of Commons if they would Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong not otherwise have been able to afford to do so. Learning, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland The lesson that the coalition takes from the debate is and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), we are ahead of that that yes, we need to intervene at every stage of the life target; we will deliver even more. cycle: early years, school, apprenticeships, university My hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West asked and opportunities afterwards. However, nothing beats about universities. One of the encouraging things about the personal experience of seeing people who have universities is that whereas in the earlier stages of the overcome barriers. What my hon. Friend describes and education process, people from disadvantaged backgrounds, promotes, not least through the excellent play to which sadly, fall further and further behind, getting to university she referred earlier, is fundamental to providing young is the first stage of the process in which it looks as people with opportunities. I very much support and if—the evidence is controversial, but I think the majority welcome the efforts that she is personally making. 249WH 31 JANUARY 2012 Inflammatory Bowel Disease 250WH

Inflammatory Bowel Disease It changes the whole way in which they have to live and work, and sadly a lot of workplaces are not set up at all for people who have it. 1pm Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): Thank you for Chris Evans: I agree completely with the hon. Gentleman, calling me to speak, Mr Leigh. and I will develop that point about workplaces further as I go through my speech. I am glad that he has raised I called for this debate to draw attention to the it. Very often in this place, we quote statistics and crippling effects of one of the country’s most common sometimes we use them to bash the Government with, health conditions and the problems that people living but in the middle of all those statistics there are real with it face in their working lives. I will be honest: human tragedies and stories that are taking place. As I before securing this debate, I knew very little about have said, I am glad that the hon. Gentleman raised that inflammatory bowel disease. I knew the bare facts, but I point and I hope that his mother is dealing with life a did not know the impact that IBD has on sufferers in bit better now. their daily lives. For example, I did not know that there are more people with IBD than people with multiple I want to return to the point that I was making about sclerosis and Parkinson’s disease. However, if we asked young people with IBD. At a time when more and more the person on the street about either of those two of our young people are struggling to find work, the last terrible conditions, I am sure that they would know at thing that we need is for them to rule out career options. least the barest details. By contrast, if we mentioned Since becoming involved in the campaign to raise awareness IBD to someone, it is quite possible that there would be of IBD, I have heard story after story from young some confused looks and silence. Indeed, when I mentioned people who are unable to fulfil their potential because this debate to people over the weekend, I had to explain of the problems that the condition causes. This story is what it was about. particularly common: Perhaps the problem comes down to the fact that “Leanne is a full time foundation degree student from Crewe and has a part time job in a local pub. As a 19 year old she finds it many of those who live with IBD are often too embarrassed especially hard having an illness which isn’t highly understood or by the symptoms or are afraid to speak out about what visible. Having a condition which includes side effects like fatigue they have to go through daily. Living with IBD is means not all employers or educational institutions understand particularly difficult as the condition is known to fluctuate the challenges she faces, and she even says that most people and can flare up at any time without warning. What is mistake this fatigue for laziness. She has had bad experiences in more, unlike the impact of many debilitating illnesses, the past with employers and teachers who do not fully understand the impact of IBD is not always obvious to other her condition and what it can mean on a daily basis. She describes people, making it difficult for them to understand what herself as a passionate individual who wants to commit to jobs and her education, but finds it difficult on bad days. She has in the a sufferer is going through. past been called “unreliable” during a flare-up of her illness. This The problem is particularly acute in the work ignorance can be damaging and can have a lasting effect on environment, as someone who is suffering from IBD someone so young.” can find it difficult to tell their employer what is wrong with them. In a survey by Crohn’s and Colitis UK, 78% Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. of people with IBD said they worry about their ability Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) for bringing this to manage their symptoms in the workplace. In addition, matter to the House. The hon. Member for Brigg and 62% said they worry about not being able to carry out Goole (Andrew Percy), who spoke earlier, has illustrated their responsibilities adequately and 36% said they fear very clearly the issues involved. As elected representatives, losing their job as a result of their condition. every one of us has to deal with these issues every day Those of us with a long commute may worry or with our constituents. moan about traffic on the roads or finding a seat on a The hon. Member for Islwyn has referred to work. train, but few of us have to worry about where the The civil service in particular seems to have issues with nearest toilet is, which really is the difference between its “early warning scheme”, as it calls it, and there is no being in or out of work for someone with IBD. flexibility in that system. Does the hon. Gentleman feel Those fears are particularly prevalent among young that it is time for the civil service to address that issue, so people with IBD who are about to enter the workplace that people who want employment in the civil service for the first time. When young people with IBD were can stay in it and not have to leave? asked about their condition, 56% of them said that their condition causes them to rule out some career options Chris Evans: Yes, absolutely, and that is really the that they might otherwise have considered. crux of the issue. IBD is not a condition that causes symptoms all the time; there are flare-ups, and then the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I am sorry condition goes back down and people go back to normal for not giving the hon. Gentleman notice that I wanted life. If there is a problem in the civil service, I hope that to speak; I had not realised that he had secured this the Minister will address it when he responds to the debate. I just want to emphasise the point that he is debate. making. My mother suffers from Crohn’s disease and In today’s economic climate, with youth unemployment has twice had operations to remove part of her bowel. at the level that it is, we cannot allow someone with IBD On both occasions, she nearly died. I have seen her to believe that their condition bars them from the job symptoms daily and growing up as a kid I actually saw market. I heard another story of a young person, James, her cry because she was unable to get to a public toilet who was diagnosed with IBD in his early teens. James is after being refused the use of a toilet—a private toilet—in currently studying for a degree at the university of a shop. This condition really impacts on people’s lives. Sheffield, but he is worried about managing his symptoms 251WH Inflammatory Bowel Disease31 JANUARY 2012 Inflammatory Bowel Disease 252WH in the workplace when he graduates and begins to look about this issue. I hope that more people follow his for work in what is already a challenging job market. example and raise awareness of what is a really serious James has said: situation. “I think the use of the toilet without restrictions has to be Returning to my example, when they graduate, people paramount. I also think employers should give employees the such as James may be too embarrassed to ask for help opportunity to confidentially declare any illnesses which may from careers advisers or Jobcentre Plus staff, who are affect the efficiency of their work. I think employees, regardless of already feeling the strain caused by the sheer volume of what illness they have, should be allowed to use the facilities, so people who are ill do not feel isolated. Also, I think there should people whom they are trying to get back into work. be no stigma attached to having the sudden urge to use the toilet. Some people do not even make it to university due to This is often the case, I would have thought, if you work/live with the challenges that they face in their teenage years from the same people for a long time. I am concerned that, after having IBD. Here is an example of such a person: worked so hard to get my first job after I graduate, if I have to have time off for illness or procedures I will be under more “Because of immune suppressants which I take to manage my pressure in my job. The job market is so competitive and if IBD, I have a very low immune system and become very ill, very someone is less ill than me, I will be placed under more pressure quickly. I have already missed one year and I have had to re-sit my due to a situation beyond my control. It is pretty inevitable that I A levels. I feel a complete failure. I wanted to become an architect may need time off while working, but due to the competitiveness but I just cannot keep up with my studies. I feel I have let myself of the job market there will always someone who will be able to and my family down and my career is only just supposed to be take my place.” starting.” There are endless stories of young people with IBD who David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): I thank the are worried and concerned about their future. A diagnosis hon. Gentleman for giving way and I congratulate him of IBD should not mean that a person has to restrict on securing this debate. In my own company, which I their ambitions, whatever those ambitions are. The prospect have registered in the Register of Members’ Financial of starting work is particularly daunting for anybody Interests, we have experienced this problem, as it affected leaving school or university, but it is made even harder one of our management team. As a company, we decided for those who are simultaneously coming to terms with that we would facilitate that individual because they a long-term health condition. were a good worker; they were enthusiastic in what they Many employers lack knowledge of IBD, which did. Although my hon. Friend the Member for Strangford complicates the problem further. A study undertaken (Jim Shannon) has raised the issue of the civil service, by Crohn’s and Colitis UK found that two thirds of surely the private sector needs to take a grip of this issue employers admitted to knowing very little or nothing and a company ought to overlook the difficulties that a at all about the needs of employees with IBD. When person—old or young—may have and see the potential asked to name some of the symptoms of IBD, most benefits they can offer. were unable to name any, while others displayed a misunderstanding of the condition. One even attributed Chris Evans: I commend the hon. Gentleman for IBD to a lack of “work passion”. That could not be putting that policy in place in his company. As I have further from the truth, as we see from the example of said, when I have spoken to people about IBD there is a the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). real fear of being embarrassed about it and not being Half of people with the condition revealed that they able to tell someone about it. If a company creates a feel they need to put in additional effort to compensate culture or an environment where an employee can go to for the time they take off for hospital or doctor’s their boss and say, “I’ve got this condition,” in many appointments. cases the problem can be overcome and resolved. As the There are steps that employers can take to provide hon. Gentleman has this example of something that has extra support for employees who suffer with IBD. There worked, I hope that that example can be passed on to are simple adjustments, such as allowing an employee the Minister, perhaps to solve the problem that the hon. with IBD to visit the toilet when needed and, if possible, Member for Strangford raised about the civil service. sit near a bathroom. That can help an IBD sufferer stay in employment and not feel awkward about the condition Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): I thank the when they are in work. Some 65% of people with IBD hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene on him, believe that the opportunity to work flexible hours and I do so to support the point that he is making. I could maximise their productivity. have had a colostomy, having suffered from bowel cancer. I do not want anyone to think that young people are As an individual, I made a huge point of being very the only group to be affected by the condition, as we public about that fact, including about the ways that I have seen with examples today. have dealt with the disease. And I must say that that approach has given a lot of people in my constituency Andrew Percy: On the issue of work ability, there hope. A disease such as bowel cancer is not something needs to be an acceptance not only that sufferers need that is embarrassing any more. People talk about bowel to use the toilet, but that a lot of people rely on vitamin cancer and bowel issues now as part of normal life, and B12 injections. As one gets nearer the time for the it is hugely important that people in the public eye—as injection, energy levels drop. Employers need to recognise we used to call it—talk about these conditions and do that there could well be a change in work patterns as the not hide them away, so that they become more accepted time for the injection approaches. by everybody else. Chris Evans: That was the point that I was trying to Chris Evans: I remember the hon. Gentleman in his make. All we are looking for is a little understanding previous life as a Welsh Assembly Member, and I also from employers. We are not asking for a great change in remember the good work that he did to raise awareness legislation. We want them to foster an environment 253WH Inflammatory Bowel Disease31 JANUARY 2012 Inflammatory Bowel Disease 254WH

[Chris Evans] need to attend back-to-work interviews. The unpredictable nature of IBD means that people with the condition, where people do not feel embarrassed about going to who are required to attend interviews and undertake their employers about their condition and that, when other work-related activities, may at times require flexibility, they do have to take medication, they are allowed time should they experience a flare-up of their condition. to do so. That will not affect anyone’s productivity; if Ultimately, IBD does not have to hinder someone’s anything, it will improve it. work potential. People live with the condition and make As I have said, I do not want anyone to think that a positive impact in the world of work every day. All only young people face this problem. Some are forced they ask for is sensitivity and understanding. I do not to take early retirement due to the unpredictable nature think that is too much. Therefore, I believe that employers, of their disease. Until last year, John was a university health professionals and policy makers have a duty to lecturer. He found that working and living with a chronic ensure that there is a greater understanding for those condition such as inflammatory bowel disease was too with fluctuating conditions such as IBD. much to cope with. He was unable to rely on the stability of his bowels while giving lectures. He chose to 1.15 pm take early retirement without much of a fight. It took 18 months to get his pension released early on partial The Minister of State, Department for Work and incapacity grounds, which took a toll, as his condition Pensions (Chris Grayling): It is a pleasure to serve under was going through a flare-up. Even though he has come your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I congratulate the hon. to terms with his current medication, in order to help Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on securing the debate. keep his symptoms under control, the IBD is difficult to What we have heard in the past 15 minutes is an live with and dictates how much travel he can do on a example of this House at its best, where we all seek in as daily basis. It has been financially tough on John and positive a way as possible to have an influence on the his family, as he was the sole source of income, which lives of people who are struggling with very challenging has now been halved. The majority of his lump-sum circumstances. There is no doubt that that applies to payment made on retirement had to be used to fit a those who suffer from the two main conditions we are downstairs toilet. discussing in this debate, Crohn’s disease and ulcerative I do not have to tell anyone how important it is to colitis, both known as inflammatory bowel disease. We keep people in work, particularly in this economic understand that they are serious conditions. In severe climate. However, we have to accept that people with cases they require hospital treatment and surgery, as we fluctuating health conditions may be in or out of work, have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and employers have to adapt to the different needs of and Goole (Andrew Percy), and they make life extremely those with the illness. difficult for those who suffer from them. I would like to deal with the hon. Gentleman’s questions Jim Shannon: One clear issue is the disability living in two parts. In the latter part of his remarks he referred allowance and the benefits system. Does the hon. to how we treat people with the conditions in the benefit Gentleman feel there are occasions—I am aware of system. I would like to touch on that first, and then on them—when the benefits system is not flexible enough employment and universal credit, which I believe will to enable someone to achieve disability living allowance help people with fluctuating conditions. and to return to work later, if they have to? I start with the question of ensuring that we provide appropriate support through the benefit system for Chris Evans: That is why we need flexibility in the those unable to work because of the scale of their benefits system. When people have this debilitating condition. We seek through the work capability assessment disease that very often stops them from working—they to take sensible decisions about those with fluctuating cannot do anything, they cannot leave the house—they conditions. I hope and believe that the work we have put cannot claim benefit. They do not even slip into the in place over the past 18 months will improve the way system or anything like that. That has to be borne in the WCA works and responds to fluctuating conditions. mind. We are continuing to look at how to improve the In the week that we are debating the remaining stages process in relation to fluctuating conditions. of the Welfare Reform Bill, it is important that the Where the effects of the condition are such that an benefits system reflects the different needs and requirements individual is unable to work, they will and should of those with fluctuating health conditions. It is crucial receive appropriate support by way of employment and that those with IBD do not struggle to cope at work support allowance. Individuals with IBD are most likely through illness, or live in poverty when they are unable to score under the incontinence descriptor of the WCA, to work. I have heard stories about people with the which recognises that in the workplace an important disease having no income, which forces them out to consideration is personal dignity. It looks at continence work. Take this testimony: in relation to the ability to maintain continence of “As my symptoms are not regular, I do not qualify for any bladder or bowel or prevent leakage from a collecting benefits. So when I am actually too ill to work, I must simply device. Additionally, individuals who are either moderately either choose not to work or lose money. It is stressful having to or severely affected by the disease may also have restrictions explain the situation without going into too much detail.” in a number of other work capability assessment areas, The Government need to recognise the disabling for example, where there is low body weight, malnutrition, elements of long-term fluctuating conditions such as persistent pain and fatigue. IBD and include provision for those in the benefits As a result of the hon. Gentleman initiating the system. The importance of that is underlined by the debate and a number of other people raising concerns Government’s introduction of universal credit, and the with my office recently about these particular fluctuating 255WH Inflammatory Bowel Disease31 JANUARY 2012 Inflammatory Bowel Disease 256WH conditions, we have looked again at how we are handling programme—we seek to individualise support as much people with the conditions who are going through the as possible and ensure that we match individuals to work capability assessment, because I want to ensure employers. that we get it right. In fact, all we have identified is that One great way to overcome the challenges that people people with a primary diagnosis of the two different with different disabilities and health problems face in IBDs we are talking about are more likely than other the workplace is by matching individuals to employers groups to be allowed employment and support allowance, who understand, respect and support them. We encourage to reflect the high level of debilitation experienced by our Work programme providers and Jobcentre Plus many individuals with such conditions. offices to work closely with charitable groups for people The majority of people with IBD who have completed who face different health challenges in order to ensure their work capability assessment are allowed employment that organisations have the best possible understanding and support allowance. The statistics show that they are of the support that they need, so that we can do more likely by around a third to be placed in the job-matching work to the best of our abilities. support group or the work-related activity group than In addition, where mainstay provision is not appropriate, the employment and support allowance client group as we provide specialist support through Access to Work a whole. I think we see a picture of a system that is and Work Choice, which are available to the individuals reflective of the nature of the challenges that these with the most complex support needs. Each year, Work people face. We will not always get it right; I never Choice aims to help about 9,000 people with disability pretend that that will be the case. From what I can and health problems into work, and Access to Work establish, we are already reflecting, in the way we handle provides support to about 35,000 individuals. people with IBD, a recognition of the severe and significant I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg issues it can pose for sufferers. and Goole that it is essential for employers to make The work capability assessment considers each case reasonable adjustments, which might include unrestricted on its merits. Alongside that, it is important to state access to toilets for people with IBD. It is common that, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, many people decency, and there is no earthly reason not to. I know can and should continue to work. There is a duty to we have not always moved beyond the world in which ensure that employers understand, help, and work with we have lived, but one would hope that in today’s world, people to make sure that they stay in the workplace, and not many employers would deny someone access to a I praise him for his comments on that. We have therefore toilet. I believe that in most of our economy—ideally, in ensured that the work capability assessment recognises all of it—that should be a management practice of the that some people can manage their conditions successfully past. Employers now have a duty under the Equality and return to work. In some cases, symptoms might be Act 2010, and they are putting themselves at risk if they less severe, or might fluctuate so that they are unable to do not pay attention to an individual’s needs, if those work for only short periods. Others might respond well needs are reasonable and sensible. I certainly regard to medication and be unlikely to have any long-term unrestricted access to a toilet as being entirely that. functional restrictions. For those people, it is important We are also trying to ensure that all those who work that we provide them either with appropriate support to with us in the Department for Work and Pensions stay in the workplace or with help to get back to work. networks and who have a responsibility for health care— We can all play a role, as the hon. Gentleman is doing particularly health care professionals working with people today. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member undergoing the WCA and, in due course and Parliament for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) for his comments. permitting, the assessment for the new personal One great strength of the House is that we can take a independence payment—have an understanding of the lead. Sometimes we might be frustrated that individually, nature of the health conditions that they will confront as Members of Parliament, we cannot wave a wand and in their work. The doctors and nurses working with us change something overnight, but we have the ability to and Atos Healthcare on the assessments, for example, access, influence, create platforms and shape the way already have a knowledge of IBD from their professional people think. Within our constituencies and beyond, we training. However, those who are not from such a have the ability to influence the way employers think, as background—physiotherapists, for example—undertake the hon. Gentleman is undoubtedly seeking to do today. a training module on inflammatory bowel disease as I commend the message that he is sending out. It is one part of their work capability assessment induction. A that I hope Members will continue to send in relation learning set on continence, including a focus on IBD, is not only to IBD but to the many fluctuating conditions offered to health care professionals as part of the Atos that make people’s lives more difficult, although they Healthcare continuing medical education programme. should not and need not make it impossible for people To assist them in their knowledge of such conditions, to stay in the workplace. A bit of understanding from health care professionals also have access to an evidence- an employer can go a long way in preserving skills based repository. important to the organisation while giving employees We try hard to ensure that we provide the people who the flexibility to deal with the challenges that they face. work for us with access to information about fluctuating However, for those who are struggling and finding conditions, mental health problems and other issues that their employers are less supportive, which is bound that they will come across in their duties, so that they to happen, we seek to personalise support for each are as well placed as possible to be responsive in their individual through the work done by Jobcentre Plus decision-making and to get those decisions right. We and the Work programme. Along with both sets of have no interest whatever in getting such decisions organisations delivering support for the unemployed— about people wrong. This is about taking the right our Jobcentre Plus offices up and down the country, decisions and providing support for people who have and the different organisations working with the Work the potential or are perfectly able to continue to work, 257WH Inflammatory Bowel Disease 31 JANUARY 2012 258WH

[Chris Grayling] Offshore Renewable Energy (East Anglia) and then finding the right employers for them. However, it is also about understanding the limits of an individual’s 1.29 pm ability to work and ensuring that we do not end up making someone work who cannot realistically do so. Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): It is a pleasure to We are continuing to work to improve our knowledge, serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I am very understanding and processes, and the responsiveness of pleased to have secured this debate, because it provides those processes, for people with fluctuating conditions. an opportunity to focus on the East Anglia offshore In the past few months, our adviser on the work capability renewable energy industry at a particularly important assessment, Professor Malcolm Harrington, has carried time in its fledgling life. Much work has already been out a project in partnership with organisations that carried out, both by the Government and industry, and represent people with Crohn’s disease, IBD and other exciting times lie ahead, if the right policy and investment fluctuating conditions to enable us to understand better decisions are made and seen through. how we can improve our processes to ensure that we The future can be bright; thousands of new jobs can take well-informed, appropriate decisions. The group be created; the economy can be rebalanced towards the has made a number of recommendations to us through regions and towards engineering and specialist Professor Harrington. We are considering our response, manufacturing; and the country can have a source of but I have given a clear commitment that the Government energy that is secure, stable in terms of price and will do everything that we realistically and reasonably environmentally friendly. Looking further ahead, we can to improve the way we work and ensure that we take can build an industry that can compete on a global the right decisions. stage, with firms taking their services and skills around It is important, too, to find the dividing line. That will the world, and in due course we can become net exporters always be a difficult challenge for any Government, of electricity, instead of being importers vulnerable to because, as the hon. Gentleman has said, there are two fluctuations in fossil fuel prices. sets of points. The first is about employment and the We are at the dawn of a new era. The two largest wind need to get things right for those in work, and the farm developers off the coast of East Anglia—Scottish second is about the need to get things right in our and Southern Energy and East Anglia Offshore Wind—are benefits system for those who cannot work. Finding a about to enter important stages in the process of obtaining dividing line between the two is very difficult. There is the necessary statutory approvals for their developments. no simple black-and-white answer to the two sides of Moreover, the Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth enterprise that problem. The Government must do everything we zone, which is focused on the offshore energy sector, can in our assessments and judgments to make our will come into operation on 1 April. decision-making as accurate as possible. There is no These are exciting times, but it is important that we exact science, of course. When we come to that grey ensure that we realise the full potential that this opportunity area, no individual on the borderline is definitely able presents for the East Anglia economy. The Thanet wind or unable to work. farm is a great engineering feat, but much of the value I give the hon. Gentleman every commitment that generated by that project went to companies outside the our goal is to get right what we do. In all our reforms, UK. Non-UK ports have been large beneficiaries of the including the reforms coming through Parliament this round 1 and 2 offshore wind farm projects. Lessons week to which he referred, it is not our wish or intention must be learned so that we can ensure that our coastal to do the wrong thing by people who find themselves in communities, such as that in Lowestoft in Waveney, a difficult position in their lives. We have to find the which I represent, benefit fully from this opportunity. correct approach in one of two different routes. It might Much good work has already been done and the involve finding the right support to get them into work; foundations have been laid. The original foundation it might involve getting them into the benefit system. stone, which has been there since time immemorial, is However, what we are trying to avoid is sending people the North sea, one of this island’s most vital assets. It down the wrong route: for example, somebody with the is a great resource, out of which the fishing industry in potential to work who is not asked to do so, or somebody Lowestoft and other ports was created, only to be who has the potential to work but is not encouraged to reduced to a shadow of its former self by the common do so. fisheries policy. The North sea also gave us the oil and All of our reforms are about taking the right decisions, gas industry, which has many features that are transferrable as far as we possibly can, by those individuals, and to the renewable energy sector—skills, a supply chain providing support, knowledge, and understanding for of approximately 500 businesses employing more than people with such conditions. We will not always get it 10,000 people across Suffolk and Norfolk, and the best right, but we will do our best to do so, and to deepen health and safety regime in the world. Now the North knowledge and understanding right across the workings sea offers another dividend, in the form of wind in the of the DWP about IBD and other fluctuating conditions immediate future and, in due course and with the right suffered by the people whom we seek to help. nurturing, wave and tidal power. I should emphasise that, while I want to ensure that we realise the full potential that the North sea has to offer, I am conscious that it is an asset, a treasure that we should nurture for future generations. The role of guardian is played by organisations such as the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, which is based in Lowestoft, has a long track record of 259WH Offshore Renewable Energy (East 31 JANUARY 2012 Offshore Renewable Energy (East 260WH Anglia) Anglia) applying science in the management of fisheries and among statutory consulting bodies. It recommends a provides sound impartial advice to support the green total spend over the next three years of £12 million and economy. that the industry should be open to considering the The OrbisEnergy centre in Lowestoft has become a possibility of making contributions itself. centre of excellence for the offshore renewables sector. Further down the line—although this is already Six sites in and around Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft concentrating people’s minds in Suffolk and Norfolk—is form part of the enterprise zone. The New Anglia local how best to connect the East Anglia Array, which will enterprise partnership is a green economy pathfinder, generate electricity equivalent to five Sizewell C power and Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth ports have been stations, to the national grid. granted CORE status as one of five centres for offshore renewable engineering. Traditionally in Britain, electricity has been generated All that work is to be applauded, but various challenges in the north and the midlands and has been transported need to be addressed if the industry’s full potential is to up and down the spine of the country. We are now be realised in East Anglia, and I shall outline those looking to change this axis so as to transmit power in an challenges in the time remaining. The first is the policy east-west direction. It is important that, if possible, use framework. The offshore renewable industry is highly is made of the existing infrastructure. At present, the mobile—investment will flow to the most attractive National Grid Company is establishing whether that destinations. It is, therefore, important that the Government will be possible. If not, it will be necessary to provide a send out the right message that there is a stable fiscal new transmission route. In doing so, open dialogue will regime and a secure support mechanism to encourage be vital from the outset between communities, the National the necessary investment in new technologies. Grid Company and councils, to ensure that all factors My right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex are taken into account when determining the most (Nicholas Soames) addressed the need for a stable fiscal appropriate and best means of transmission, whether regime when he referred to the oil and gas sector during overground or underground, and when determining his Adjournment debate last week. On the need for a cost—both immediate and whole life—and environmental reliable support mechanism, the Government’s proposals impact. in the consultation on renewables obligation banding All parties must face up to this challenge. With 25% for offshore wind and wave and tidal technologies are of the current electricity generating capacity due to be acceptable to the industry, but it is vital that those for retired by 2016, it is important to move quickly to offshore wind are not reduced any further, because that ensure that the lights do not go out. At the same time, could delay the projects, and wind supply chain companies however, we must not unnecessarily blight what is a might be tempted towards competing European nations. special landscape. It is also important that electricity market reform mechanisms are delivered quickly and at a level that Thirdly, it is important that we ensure that people in gives confidence to developers, investors, manufacturers Suffolk and Norfolk have the necessary skills to take up and contractors to invest in the post-2017 opportunities the many jobs that will be created. At a recent seminar that will come from the round 3 wind farms. on supporting young people in Waveney, which I held jointly with Jobcentre Plus, Mark Jones, the managing On the wave and tidal sector, the proposed five renewables director of Lowestoft-based AKD Engineering, spoke obligation certificates per megawatt-hour will help the graphically about the importance of doing this and the UK maintain its lead over the other competing nations fact that, if we do not, a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity in this emerging sector, and that can be reinforced if to bring prosperity back to the Lowestoft and Yarmouth support is forthcoming from the green investment bank. area will be lost, with work going elsewhere. The further It is also important that the UK takes a lead role in education and apprenticeship policies that have been developing transparent European market rules that in enthusiastically promoted by the Minister for Further due course will allow us to export surplus renewable Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning provide an energy to Europe and vice versa. ideal basis on which to build, but we also need to The second challenge is planning. As I have said, promote the teaching of science, technology, engineering both SSE and EAOW are at crucial stages in obtaining and maths in our schools. consent for their developments. There is a concern that the consent process is taking too long, that statutory The technology and innovation centre for renewable bodies are not showing sufficient flexibility in considering energy needs to be up and running as soon as possible, applications and that they should adopt what the developers and I hope that organisations such as OrbisEnergy and call the Rochdale envelope approach. CEFAS in my constituency will play an important role Delays could have a negative knock-on effect on in that project. The private sector and the East of investment decisions in relation to the wind farms England Energy Group, through its skills for energy themselves, in terms of the creation and reinforcement programme, also have a key role to play, and it is of supply chains and in relation to grid connections. important that national and local government work That could lead to a loss of confidence in the UK sector with them. just as it has become a world leader. It is important that Fourthly, it is important that the supply chain is decisions are made promptly and that statutory consultees reinforced. The enterprise zone and CORE designations are properly funded to cope with the number of planning will help do that. We should promote manufacturing applications, which will increase dramatically with round 3 processes, whether they involve turbine manufacturing, applications. foundation manufacturing or the provision of sleeves RenweableUK, the trade body for the wind and for turbines. If we can encourage those to take place in marine industry, has recommended the establishment of East Anglian ports, it will help to support supply chain a stakeholder resource fund to build capacity and expertise businesses. That will lead to costs being driven down, 261WH Offshore Renewable Energy (East 31 JANUARY 2012 Offshore Renewable Energy (East 262WH Anglia) Anglia) [Peter Aldous] we can not only hit these targets, but achieve the economic growth that this country so urgently needs at the current which will make offshore wind more affordable and, in time. turn, will consolidate the UK’s position as a world leader in this sector. 1.43 pm A problem that supply chain companies often face is The Minister of State, Department of Energy and that they need three types of contract to come together Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a pleasure to at the same time: the contract with the wind farm serve under your chairmanship, Mr Leigh. I am delighted developer for the provision of a piece of equipment, the to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney contracts with sub-contractors for component parts, (Peter Aldous) on securing the debate. He has shown a and, finally, a financing agreement with their bank. At long-term interest in the scope for East Anglia to become present, securing any one of those three types of contract a leader in renewable technologies and, within the requires certainty on at least one of the other two. That Department of Energy and Climate Change, we are leads to an unenviable chicken and egg problem. A very grateful indeed for his constant support. I am means of addressing that dilemma would be for the delighted that he is supported today by some of my green investment bank to offer loan guarantees to offshore hon. Friends who represent Suffolk constituencies. They wind projects entering the construction phase. I would share his ambitions for East Anglia and how it can take be grateful if the Minister could look into that. advantage of the opportunities that are clearly there. Finally, I come to infrastructure. Good infrastructure My hon. Friend is absolutely right to say that there is vital. In previous debates, I have emphasised the are bright prospects for East Anglia and that this is an importance of improving road, rail and broadband area where international opportunities could develop links to the East Anglian coast, which is very much at for the businesses setting up and operating within Norfolk the end of a line. I will not restate that case here, other and Suffolk. The expertise they can gather is something than to repeat the need for investment in the road they can certainly take overseas as well. Earlier on in network in and around Lowestoft, which is currently this Government, the Prime Minister said that we would gridlocked as a result of sewer repairs taking place in be the greenest Government ever. The actions that we in Station square. DECC have since taken have shown how seriously we Instead, I want to emphasise the importance of two take that commitment. other types of infrastructure investment—first, ports I well remember my visit to my hon. Friend’s constituency and, secondly, the grid. The enterprise zone and the a year ago, when I had the chance to go with him to the CORE initiatives will help Lowestoft and Great Yarmouth OrbisEnergy centre to meet some local business leaders ports, but they are at a disadvantage both when compared to try to understand the commitment, enthusiasm and with other British ports that are in assisted areas and excellence that they can bring to this area. On that visit, that benefit from capital allowances and the £60 million I was also pleased to have a chance to go to Great UK ports competition, and when compared with European Yarmouth, Sizewell and Norwich to see for myself how ports that are in public ownership. I wholeheartedly well poised East Anglia is to take forward opportunities support the tradition of private sector investment in in the low-carbon sector. I have also had opportunities UK ports and the advantages of innovation and dynamism since then to talk to the New Anglia local enterprise brought to the industry by a market-based approach. partnership. I am very encouraged by its enthusiasm However, East Anglian ports need to be able to compete and commitment to make the best case for businesses in on a level playing field. I therefore urge the Government East Anglia and to address the skills issue, which my to consider the provision of a three-year replacement hon. Friend rightly mentioned. fund that would act as the equivalent of the capital As my hon. Friend said, since my visit, both Lowestoft allowances and port infrastructure funding that is available and Great Yarmouth have been designated centres for elsewhere. offshore renewable engineering, or COREs. That is a With regard to the grid, there is the need not only for great achievement and is a tribute to the skills that are upgrading with additional transmission and distribution already based in those areas. Both towns are home to an capacity, as I have mentioned, but for a smart grid and a impressive energy sector supply chain, with some 500 European supergrid. That would allow peaks and troughs businesses employing more than 10,000 staff directly in electricity generation to be smoothed out while enhancing within the two port areas, and many times more people security of supply and, in due course, enabling Britain in the wider supply chain spread across East Anglia to export electricity, thereby helping the balance of more generally. payments. My hon. Friend raised the issue about supply chain In conclusion, this is not a plea for a blank cheque, opportunities. I want to reassure him that the Government although the coastal communities fund should recognise are not neutral about that. We are sending a clear the contribution of offshore wind farms to the UK message to those who are developing the offshore facilities economy.The Government have already made a significant that we would like them to give British companies every investment and are pursuing the right policies. However, opportunity to pitch for their business. My concern is we need to ensure that such policies come to fruition that sometimes they are not even on the tender list. We and that they hit their two targets: first, to achieve a are going to great lengths to ensure that they get the secure low-carbon energy supply with less price volatility chance to pitch. At the end of the day, it is a commercial and, secondly, to build a new industry in which Britain decision, but we are very happy to call up the chairman is a world leader and to create new jobs. and the chief executives of those companies investing East Anglian people and businesses want to be at the here to highlight to them the strengths of British companies forefront of this drive. On their behalf, I conclude by and those companies operating out of the United Kingdom saying this to the Minister: work with us and together in this area. 263WH Offshore Renewable Energy (East 31 JANUARY 2012 Offshore Renewable Energy (East 264WH Anglia) Anglia) My hon. Friend also raised the issue of the UK ports also have the biggest pipeline of projects to 2020 of any funding scheme. As he will be aware, that shifted from country. Deployment of offshore wind will require an being a ports project across the whole of the United investment of tens of billions of pounds. For that huge Kingdom to an economic development scheme, because sum to be invested by industry, we need to do all we can we felt it was important to link the development of the to ensure that developers, investors and manufacturers port to a specific economic activity. As a result, under have confidence in the market and see the UK as the EU state aid rules, the funding can go only to assisted No.1 destination for their money. areas. However, it is encouraging to note the extent to Electricity market reform, as my hon. Friend rightly which companies are willing to look outside the assisted says, will give confidence and long-term visibility to areas for where they see the right port facilities and the investors, and will encourage the investment we need to rights skills base. We are seeing some good, encouraging renew our generating infrastructure. We have seen great interest from companies looking at the United Kingdom progress in just a year-and-a-half, since the Government more generally. were elected. It was not even on the agenda at all before Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft are home to some of the election. In the course of just more than a year-and- the leading offshore wind companies, including a-half, we have established the structure of an entirely ScottishPower Renewables, Vattenfall, SSE, Seajacks, new electricity market—massive progress that we will ODE, Gardline, SLP Smulders, CLS, Petrofac and AMEC, shortly enshrine in legislation, but with ongoing discussions among others. Lowestoft is already the operations base with developers to ensure that, if they need to make for the Greater Gabbard wind farm and is well positioned earlier decisions, they will understand how the funding to take advantage of future developments. Later this will work to secure their investments. year, we expect the first offshore wind project from the Our reforms to the planning system will ensure faster, East Anglia zone—East Anglia ONE—to submit its more efficient consenting, while retaining democratic application for development consent to the Infrastructure accountability. We are currently considering the responses Planning Commission. East Anglia is well positioned to to the consultation on the bands for the renewables take advantage of future wind farm developments. obligation to ensure appropriate levels of support for My hon. Friend understandably picked up the issue renewable technologies and value for the taxpayer and of planning. During this year, those decision-making consumers. We are creating the Green investment bank, powers will be transferred from the Infrastructure Planning to which my hon. Friend referred, to deliver financial Commission, where such decisions are currently taken, interventions that address market failures specific to directly to Ministers. The one thing we have been absolutely green investment needs, thereby supporting growth and clear to enshrine in that is the time scale. The final environmental objectives. One of the priority areas for decision will be taken by Ministers, which means there the Green investment bank will be offshore wind. will be no extra delays as a result of the process. We are working with Ofgem to ensure cheaper and Somebody can be sure that, within just over a year of timelier offshore grid connections, to encourage innovation submitting their application, they will have a determination. through competition, and to enable new entrants to What frustrates people most is not being turned down; compete in the market. Ofgem has already run one it is the absence of a decision at all. People want to successful tender round for offshore transmission and is know whether their investment is likely to go ahead and in the process of running a second. therefore we are keen to ensure that they have that My hon. Friend rightly raised the issue of onshore clarity. grid issues. This week, the Institute of Engineering and I am sure that my hon. Friend agrees that the future Technology publishes a very authoritative report, which of the UK’s energy supply has to be secure, flexible and goes into more detail than anything I have ever seen low carbon. We envisage a mix of low-carbon generation before, about the comparative costs of undergrounding made up of new nuclear, carbon capture and storage, and overgrounding. Where it is possible to use existing and renewable sources. We must also combine that with infrastructure, that should of course be part of the energy efficiency, as the cheapest energy of all is the process, because significant concerns have been raised. energy not used. In all those areas—nuclear, carbon capture and storage and renewable sources—East Anglia Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) has an extremely important role to play. The skills base (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for and expertise that are already there are very encouraging Waveney (Peter Aldous) on all his work in pushing and the ambitions of the companies involved to take Suffolk to be the greenest county and for Waveney to this forward is something we can truly celebrate. develop a national leading hub, and I acknowledge the Renewable energy, and offshore renewables in particular, support given by the Minister. are set to be a major part of our future energy supply. The issue of where cabling goes is very important. Some technologies, such as onshore and offshore wind, Suffolk wants to be the greenest county, just as the are already established and some, such as wave and Government want to be the greenest Government, but tidal, are still emerging, which is why we have given the it would be a contradiction in terms if developing the higher level of ROC support to them. It is absolutely green hub means putting pylons all over the countryside. clear that offshore wind will play an important part in I ask for the Minister’s support in pushing those energy the UK’s energy future. It is a low-carbon energy source. companies hard to ensure that pylons are not installed It is also a domestic energy source, which means that it in a way that will destroy the beautiful Suffolk countryside. will play a role in securing our long-term energy security. The UK is already the world’s biggest offshore wind Charles Hendry: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for market. We are working hard to maintain that position, his interest and for the recent event he hosted for and are determined to do so. We already have the most businesses in East Anglia to talk about that matter. He installed capacity and this is only the beginning. We raises an issue that is current and important. We face 265WH Offshore Renewable Energy (East 31 JANUARY 2012 Offshore Renewable Energy (East 266WH Anglia) Anglia) [Charles Hendry] wind industry from early 2012. It will eventually be able to accommodate more than 200 young people a year on the absolute fact that when electricity is generated we engineering and welding courses. Wells Harbour, in the need to find ways of getting it to market, and that constituency of the hon. Member for North Norfolk requires a massive upgrading of our grid infrastructure. (Norman Lamb), has secured contracts for work at We have made changes to how that is dealt with. In a Sheringham Shoal offshore wind farm. national policy statement on grid, we talked about the We are therefore already seeing some key investments need to explore alternatives to overgrounding. The report coming forward, and not just in the domestic market. published this week by the IET is a further example of Seajacks, which is based in the constituency of my hon. our determination to get a clear understanding of the Friend the Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon facts. The companies involved—National Grid, in Lewis), has won a £100 million order to supply the particular—are in no doubt whatever about the public Meerwind offshore wind farm in Germany. There is no anxiety that this can create, and they are looking at doubt that the levels of deployment we are likely to see ways of ameliorating that. I am encouraged from my in the UK and in Europe are far in excess of current discussions with them that they are keen to explore how production capacity—rapid scaling up will be needed. best to ensure that a new generation comes through in a That offers the potential for significant employment way that is harmonious with the communities through and economic benefit for the UK, with the opportunity which that electricity will pass. to create a broad manufacturing base in a high-value-added Offshore wind is quickly making the jump from an sector that, partly as a result of the sheer size of the emerging technology to a major part of the UK’s electricity turbines, really needs to be somewhere close by. I intend supply. Through the industry-led Offshore Wind Cost it to be here in the UK. Reduction Task Force, we are working to create an The industry is at an early stage of development, but action plan to bring down the costs of offshore wind to is set for huge growth. The UK is well placed to make make it cost-competitive with other forms of low-carbon the most of it, and the Government intend to do so. We generation. The task force will report to Ministers in have a strong research and development capability, and spring. It is clear that industry and investors recognise some excellent engineering, technology and manufacturing our commitment to offshore wind. Many companies, opportunities. In East Anglia, I have seen for myself including those in East Anglia, are gaining access to some of the outstanding examples of businesses that that new market. I want the UK to benefit from the jobs are ready and able to take advantage of those opportunities. associated with offshore wind, not just from the low-carbon I have met the people in the local authorities who are electricity. I want UK companies not just to supply UK determined to ensure that the educational provision is wind farms, but to start supplying other countries, too. there to bring forward the skill set. I have met with the The supply chain is already building up to support local enterprise partnership, too. That, combined with the wind sector, and it is doing good business. As this the immense commitment and enthusiasm of my hon. debate is focused upon East Anglia, let me just pick a Friend the Member for Waveney, and my hon. Friends few recent examples since April 2011. Gaoh Energy, in from other parts of the county, shows that this is an the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for area with immense potential and we look forward to it Waveney, has secured a met mast order for the Moray being realised. Firth offshore wind development. In the constituency Question put and agreed to. of my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), there is a new energy skills centre, 1.57 pm where courses will be offered to support the UK offshore Sitting adjourned. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

In each case, the Council decisions extended in some Written Ministerial way the UK’s commitments in mode 4. These commitments are an integral part of our trade commitments at the Statements WTO and of the trade agreement with Colombia and Peru. It is the presence of these commitments in the relevant instruments which triggers the UK Justice and Tuesday 31 January 2012 Home Affairs opt-in. In the case of the decisions on the accessions of Russia and Samoa and the related side agreement with BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Russia, I regret that it was not possible to allow the normal eight weeks for parliamentary scrutiny. This Trade Policy (Opt-ins) was due to the late conclusion of the negotiations, particularly with Russia, and the consequent late presentation by the Commission of the relevant draft The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Council decisions, while we still needed to agree positions Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I wish to in Council ahead of the WTO ministerial on 15 to inform the House that the Government have opted in 17 December. to the following trade policy measures: (i) the Council decisions relating to the accession of Russia and Samoa to the World Trade Organisation; TREASURY (ii) the Council decisions on the signing, provisional application and conclusion of a side agreement with Russia, preserving commitments in the current EU-Russia partnership and Bilateral Loan (Ireland) co-operation agreement, following Russia’s accession to the WTO; and (iii) the Council decisions on the signing and conclusion of The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark the trade agreement between the European Union and Colombia Hoban): I would like to update Parliament on the loan and Peru. to Ireland. In each case, opting in will help to achieve the Ireland completed the fourth quarterly review of its Government’s trade policy objectives of expanding the International Monetary Fund and European Union WTO’s membership and pursuing trade liberalisation programme of financial assistance on 14 December 2011, through the conclusion of EU free trade agreements at which point the utilisation period for the second with third countries. instalment of the UK bilateral loan began. The Government have supported the accession of Upon request, the Treasury has disbursed the second Russia to the WTO on the right terms. In acceding to instalment of £403.37 million on 30 January 2012, with the WTO, Russia will embrace a series of rules and a maturity date of 30 July 2019. commitments which form the foundation of an open, transparent and non-discriminatory global trading system HM Treasury will provide a further report to Parliament, and which will provide important guarantees for Russia as required under the Loans to Ireland Act 2010, at the and for the other WTO members. Accession to the end of this reporting period. WTO will bring Russia more firmly into the global The Government believe that it is in our national economy and make it a more attractive place to do interest that the Irish economy is successful and its business. banking system is stable. The Government continue to The Government have supported the accession of support Ireland’s efforts to improve its economic situation. least developed countries (LDCs) such as Samoa to the WTO. Becoming a member of the WTO will allow Samoa to benefit from WTO market access and global COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT trading rules and the transparency of the WTO trading system. It will also be able to use the WTO dispute Changes to the Building Regulations settlement mechanism to solve its differences with other members and fully participate in the ongoing negotiations to design the trade rules of the future. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for The intention of the side agreement with Russia is to Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell): I maintain commitments in maritime transport services am today announcing a consultation on changes to the and in mode 4—the temporary movement of natural building regulations regime in England. I believe the persons for business purposes—offered by Russia to the proposals, by seizing the opportunity to deregulate EU bilaterally which would otherwise fall away on where possible while delivering even better levels of Russia’s accession to the WTO. compliance and energy efficiency in buildings, will support The Government have supported the EU trade agreement our commitment ensuring that our buildings are safe with Colombia and Peru. This agreement will provide a and sustainable whilst helping to secure future growth range of benefits and reassurances for UK trade and and employment by means of a robust and effective investment in Peru and Colombia, including liberalisation bedrock of regulation. of Peruvian and Colombian tariffs in key sectors for Our proposals build on ideas and suggestions provided UK exports. It also includes a robust essential elements by our external partners. We will continue to engage clause which covers both human rights and weapons of with partners and will also take into account the mass destruction, either of which can be invoked as contributions to the current red tape challenge exercise reason for suspension of trade preferences. as we finalise these proposals. 39WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 40WS

The Government are committed to reducing the We are consulting on two further changes. First, to burden that falls on business as a result of regulation. align the existing guidance in Approved Document C The consultation we are publishing today includes (site preparation and resistance to contaminants and proposals which provide annual net savings to business moisture) on radon safety with the most up-to-date of £63.1 million: radon maps thus ensuring that these safety provisions are targeted at the appropriate parts of the country. Proposals which respond to concerns about the burdens Secondly, to replace the currently-referenced structural associated with part P (electrical safety—dwellings) and the costs which fall on electricians, local authorities and ultimately standards in Approved Document A (Structure) with the consumer. We are consulting on two changes to reduce the updated British standards that are based on eurocodes. these costs while not undermining safety. First, we propose to extend the range of simple jobs that can be carried out Although the majority of the proposals relate to the without notifying building control. Secondly, we propose to technical building standards, I also propose a number allow DIY-ers and other unregistered installers to use a of changes to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of competent electrician rather than a building inspector to the building control system. The proposals will reduce certify work. costs and burdens by simplifying or improving processes for both local authorities and approved inspectors. We Clarifying the guidance on access statements in Approved Document M (access to and use of buildings) so as to are helping building control to focus resources where promote a proportionate, risk-based approach to communicating they have the most impact by removing a number of compliance and avoid production of statements unnecessarily. statutory notification stages and introducing a service plan approach based on risk assessment and helping Rationalising the guidance supporting parts M, K and N improve competition between building control bodies (access, protection from falling, collision and impact and by removing the warranty link rule. We are also helping glazing respectively) to address areas of conflict and overlap and which impose unnecessary costs on business. incentivise businesses to improve compliance by introducing additional voluntary mechanisms, such as extending Making minor changes to the technical guidance in the the competent person self-certification schemes framework Approved Document B (Fire safety) which seeks to restrict and introducing specialist third-party certification schemes; the spread of flame and heat release rate of the products and introducing “Appointed Persons”to act as compliance used in lining ceilings, walls and other internal structures. co-ordinators on construction sites, as well as strengthening In addition, given the consultation relates to the regulation existing enforcement mechanisms. of buildings, I am also using this opportunity to announce our intention to take forward the repeal of the fire protection The Government have also been considering whether provisions in the Local Acts. This will free-up businesses there is a role for regulation to ensure suitable toilet and from the costs of fire protection requirements contained in changing provisions for people with multiple and profound some Local Acts which apply inconsistently across the country. disabilities—often referred to as “Changing Places” The decision has been taken in the light of previous consultation toilets. Work undertaken so far suggests that a collaborative which found no evidence to justify maintaining requirements approach between external partners has the potential to which go beyond the necessary protection already afforded deliver a better alternative to regulation. I have asked nationally through the building regulations. my officials to help facilitate this. However, I hold open The consultation includes proposals which deliver on the possibility of returning to the issue of regulation in our commitment to increase energy efficiency standards the future should this not prove successful. through part L (conservation of fuel and power) of the Secondly, I also wanted to explore further the case for building regulations. For new buildings, the changes regulation in relation to minimum standards for security represent the next step towards zero carbon by tightening in homes. Our initial analysis suggests that current carbon dioxide compliance targets and for new homes industry practice provide a reasonable balance between they also introduce a new mandatory target for fabric the costs of security measures and the protection they energy efficiency and proposals to further improve provide. However, we will continue work to understand compliance and as built performance. They also contain how applying higher standards locally without the need proposals to strengthen energy efficiency standards to regulate might work. We also intend to work with the for existing properties and introduce requirements for Home Office and industry to develop a consumer-friendly, additional—consequential—energy efficiency improvements industry led rating system for security products. where work is already planned, and the Green Deal is available to meet up-front costs. Given the current Alongside the consultation proposals the Department economic conditions, I have considered carefully the for Communities and Local Government is also today timing and ambition of these proposals and sought to publishing on its website nine impact assessments which tailor the proposals accordingly, for example, through provide information on the costs and benefits associated the phased introduction of the part L provisions. with the consultation proposals and the repeal of the Local Acts and seven research reports which have informed The Government also have a separate commitment to the proposals and impact assessments. I am placing reduce the total regulatory burden on the house building copies of these documents, as well as the consultation industry during this spending review period. The energy documents, in the Library of the House. efficiency improvements for new homes proposed therefore will need to be compensated by extra deregulatory Taken together, I believe the proposals being published proposals. Work is currently in hand to identify today demonstrate our continuing commitment to be compensating regulatory “outs” and Government will the greenest Government ever, helping business and set out where these will be found when they bring consumers by reducing fuel bills and so helping reduce forward their response to this consultation. If sufficient fuel poverty, whilst regulating proportionately to avoid “outs” cannot be found, the Government will adjust its imposing unnecessary costs and supporting growth and final package accordingly. employment. 41WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 42WS

Local Government Finance significant savings to help protect frontline services and taxpayers’ interests. And to support councils the Localism Act will trigger the biggest transfer of power in a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for generation to local communities. The Local Government Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): I Finance Bill, currently before the House, will devolve have today laid before the House the Local Government further powers and flexibilities. Finance Report (England) 2012-13 and the Referendums This settlement is supported by our extension of the Relating to Council Tax Increases (Principles) (England) successful council tax freeze scheme to a second year, Report 2012-13. building on the 2011-12 freeze offer taken up by all The Local Government Finance Report (England) eligible councils. The offer being made to local authorities 2012-13 establishes the amounts of revenue support for 2012-13 is set out in the written statement of grant and non-domestic rates to be paid to local authorities 14 November 2011, Official Report, column 27-28WS. in 2012-13, and the basis of their distribution. A draft Council tax has more than doubled since 1997 and the of this report was issued for consultation on 8 December freeze will offer real help to hardworking families and 2011. once again save up to £72 compared to a 5% rise in council tax on top of this year’s saving of up to £72. By We received written responses from individual authorities, offering their local residents a council tax freeze again representative bodies and local authority groupings during this year, councils will offer real help now with the cost the consultation, and Ministers met delegations from of living to local residents, including pensioners, private the Local Government Association, London Councils sector workers and public sector workers. and a number of individual local authorities and their representatives. The Localism Act also abolished Whitehall capping of council tax in England and allows local residents to Having considered the views of all those who have approve or veto any council tax rise that exceeds principles commented on the provisional settlement, I have decided endorsed by the House of Commons. The Referendums to confirm the proposals set out for consultation on Relating to Council Tax Increases (Principles) (England) 8 December 2011. Report 2012-13 sets out the principles which the Secretary The 2010 spending review set out how the coalition of State has now determined will apply to local authorities Government are tackling the budget deficit inherited in England in 2012-13, having considered representations from the last Administration and putting the public following my written ministerial statement of 8 December finances back in order. Every bit of the public sector 2011, Official Report, column 38-41WS. needs to do its bit to help pay off the deficit, including A local authority will be required to seek the approval local government, which accounts for a quarter of all of their local electorate in a referendum if, compared public spending. Our decisions on 2011-12 and 2012-13 with 2011-12, they set council tax increases that exceed: achieve fair and sustainable settlements for local government between different parts of the country, from urban to 4% for police authorities, and single purpose fire & rescue rural and metropolitan to shire. authorities; 3.75% for the City of London; and We have continued to focus resources in a way that gives more weight to those parts of the country with the 3.5% for other principal authorities. highest levels of need. These are often the areas which In the case of the Greater London authority, which are most reliant on central Government grant. As in sets two precepts, it will be required to hold a referendum 2011-12, in calculating the grant distributions we have if, compared with 2011-12, it sets increases that exceed acted to insulate them by giving more weight to the either or both of: levels of need within different areas. We have also 4% for its adjusted relevant basic amount grouped councils into four bands and set different ‘floors’ 3.75% for its unadjusted relevant basic amount for their grant reductions. This continues to be a fairer and more progressive system of calculating grant than With the exception of the principle for the Greater before. London authority’s unadjusted relevant basic amount, which the Secretary of State changed after careful This year’s settlement means that the average spending consideration, these principles are the same as those power reduction for 2012-13 is limited to 3.3% (£34 per that he was minded to set at the time of my written capita, or £75 per household), less than last year’s ministerial statement on 8 December 2011. comparable figure of 4.5%. We have also again made sure that no council will see their overall spending The Secretary of State will not determine principles power fall by more than 8.8%) through the transfer of for local precepting authorities for 2012-13. However, £20 million of my Department’s budget to local government he wishes to make it clear that he intends to revisit this for 2012-13. This additional funding will smooth the issue next year, having considered the extent to which impact of this year’s settlement. Councils will have an local precepting authorities have exercised restraint in average spending power of £2,186 per household (£972 per relation to council tax this year. capita) at their disposal in 2012-13. Reflecting the fairness Of course, should all eligible local authorities choose of the settlement, the average spending power per household to take up the new council tax freeze there will be no in Hackney will be £3,050 (£1435 per capita) compared need for council tax referendums in 2012-13. However, with £1,537 (£656 per capita) in Windsor and Maidenhead. any town hall that turns down the council tax freeze Many councils have successfully shown that they can offer and tries to burden hardworking families and deliver significant efficiencies, but there is still more to pensioners with an excessive increase will now have to be done. Smarter procurement, reducing management seek their approval at the ballot box. and support services costs, greater transparency to cut I shall be sending copies of the Local Government waste, sharing services and tackling fraud can all deliver Finance Report to all local authorities in England, and 43WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 44WS making available full supporting information on the abilities of their pupils. A wide range of other qualifications Communities and Local Government website at: have been accredited by Ofqual for teaching to 14 to http://www.local.communities.gov.uk?finance?1213/ 16 year olds and approved for use in schools. grant.htm In March 2012, the Department will publish an updated Copies of both reports, and related tables showing each version of this list. This is likely to include a small authority’s allocation of formula grant and other supporting number of additional qualifications accredited by Ofqual material, have been placed in the Library of the House. by the beginning of March. An equalities impact assessment will be published alongside this. Both will be subject to annual review and the list of qualifications that will be EDUCATION included in the 2015 Performance Tables will be published in November 2012. Key Stage 4 Performance Tables Key Stage 4 Performance Tables: Inclusion of 14-16 Qualifications From 2014

From 2014, and in line with the Technical Guidance published by The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): the Department for Education on 27 October 2011, the key stage 4 Professor Alison Wolfs’wide-ranging review was published Performance Tables will be restricted to qualifications that are high on 3 March 2011. She found that too many young quality, rigorous and enable progression to a range of study and people are studying courses that offer no basis for employment opportunities. Qualifications will only be included if they are the same size as a GCSE or larger and each qualification progression to further study or to meaningful employment. will count for one in the tables irrespective of its size. Some of these courses “counted” in Performance Tables as being equivalent to a number of GCSEs and were The changes apply to courses taught from September 2012 and being taken at the expense of core subjects, valued most schools are advised to take these changes into account when planning their timetables. by employers, colleges and universities. Professor Wolf concluded that incentives provided Schools may offer qualifications that are not included in the Performance Tables and in all cases should act as they judge to be in through the school performance tables were, at least in the best interests of their students. part, responsible for this situation and recommended that the tables be reformed. The Government accepted these recommendations. In future, school performance Qualifications which will count in Key Stage 4 Performance tables will: Tables include only those qualifications that are of a high quality, The Level 1 qualifications will count towards all are rigorous and enable progression to a range of study and existing Performance Tables’ measures except for 5+A*-C employment opportunities; and GCSEs (or equivalent) including English and maths, count each of those qualifications as equivalent to one the English Baccalaureate and A*-C English and maths GCSE only and exclude qualifications that are smaller than GCSEs. measure. The Department for Education consulted extensively The Level 2 qualifications listed will count towards 1 on the characteristics and process to be used to identify all existing Performance Tables’ measures . qualifications for inclusion in school performance tables. The Level 3 qualifications listed, if taken by the end The Department’s response to this consultation, setting of KS4, will count towards all existing Performance out Technical Guidance for awarding organisations, Tables’ measures except for the English Baccalaureate was published on 27 October 2011. Today the Department and A*-C English and maths measure. will announce which of the qualifications awarding Full course GCSEs (at Level 1 and 2) organisations submitted for review meet the new standards. Established iGCSEs2 (at Level 1 and 2) These are listed below. AS levels (at Level 3) In addition to GCSEs, established iGCSEs, and AS Level 3 Asset Language Ladder qualifications level qualifications and their equivalents, which will Level 3 Free-Standing Maths Qualifications (FSMQs) continue to be included in Performance Tables, a further 125 qualifications have also been approved as meeting Graded music examinations at grade 6 and above (at Level 3) the required standards. Of these, 70 are at level 2 and a) Qualifications which fully demonstrate the characteristics are included in the 5+A*-C GCSEs (or equivalent) set out in DFE Guidance including English and Maths measure of performance. The remaining 55 are at level 1. The latter will not be Qualification Title included within this measure, but do count towards a Level 2 Principal Learning in Construction and the Built Environment number of other indicators. Level 2 Principal Learning in Creative and Media These changes will apply to courses taught from Level 2 Principal Learning in Engineering September 2012 and first reported in school Performance Level 2 Principal Learning in IT Tables in 2014. Level 2 Principal Learning in Society, Health and Development The reforms represent a significant change to the measurement of school performance. The number of Due to the nature of Principal Learning qualifications, non-GCSE/iGCSE qualifications that will count in the their inclusion is not specific to individual awarding 2014 Performance Tables will fall by 96%. organisations. Focusing on a core of high quality and rigorous b) Qualifications that will be included in the 2014 qualifications will also free up curriculum time. Teachers Performance Tables, but will be subject to a review of will have more freedom to exercise professional judgment their performance3. These qualifications may or may in developing a broad and balanced curriculum and not be included in Performance Tables in future years, ensuring that this reflects the particular needs and depending on the outcome of the review. 45WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 46WS

Review QAN Qualification title QAN Qualification title date 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Art and Level 2 Principal Learning in Business, Autumn 7105/1 Design (QCF) Administration and Finance 2012 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Art and Design Level 2 Principal Learning in Autumn 7104/X (QCF) Environmental and Land-based studies 2012 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Business Level 2 Principal Learning in Hair and Autumn 6745/X (QCF) Beauty Studies 2012 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Business (QCF) Level 2 Principal Learning in Hospitality Autumn 6789/8 2012 Level 2 Principal Learning in Autumn QAN Qualification title Manufacturing and Product Design 2012 Level 2 Principal Learning in Public Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Services 2012 7239/0 Construction (QCF) Level 2 Principal Learning in Retail Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Construction (QCF) Business 2012 7240/7 Level 2 Principal Learning in Sport and Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Creative Active Leisure 2012 7880/X Media Production (QCF) Level 2 Principal Learning in Travel and Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Creative Media Tourism 2012 7930/X Production (QCF) 500/ AQA Level 1/Level 2 Certificate in Use of Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in 9480/4 Mathematics4 2014 7577/9 Engineering (QCF) 600/ AQA Level 2 Certificate in Further Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Engineering (QCF) 2123/8 Mathematics 2013 7576/7 500/ WJEC Level 2 Certificate in Latin Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Health 6787/4 Language 2012 8217/6 and Social Care (QCF) 500/ WJEC Level 2 Certificate in Latin Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Health and Social 6788/6 Language and Roman Civilisation 2012 8223/1 Care (QCF) 500/ WJEC Level 2 Certificate in Latin Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in IT 6791/6 Literature 2012 9550/X (QCF) 600/ AQA Level 1/Level 2 Certificate in Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in IT (QCF) 1999/2 English Language 2013 9552/3 600/ AQA Level 1/Level 2 Certificate in Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Music 2190/1 English Literature 2013 7774/0 (QCF) 600/ WJEC Level 1/ Level 2 Certificate in Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Music (QCF) 1358/8 English Language 2013 7775/2 600/ WJEC Level 1/ Level 2 Certificate in Autumn 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in 1822/7 English Literature 2013 7141/5 Performing Arts (QCF) 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Performing Arts 7143/9 (QCF) c) Qualifications that will be included in Performance 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Sport Tables for the final time in 20145. These qualifications 7658/9 (QCF) are being redeveloped and the new versions would be 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Sport (QCF) included in Performance Tables if they fully demonstrate 7660/7 the required characteristics. 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Travel 8016/7 and Tourism (QCF) QAN Qualification title 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Travel and Tourism 8060/X (QCF) 500/ BCS Level 2 Certificate in IT User Skills (ECDL Extra) 100/ Edexcel Level 2 Certificate in Digital Applications for 6242/6 (ITQ) (QCF) 5326/8 IT Users 500/ BCS Level 2 Certificate in IT User Skills (ITQ) (QCF) 100/ Edexcel Level 2 Diploma in Digital Applications for IT 6175/6 5327/X Users 500/ CACHE Level 2 Award in Child Care and Education 100/ Edexcel Level 2 Extended Certificate in Digital 1887/5 6442/4 Applications for IT Users 500/ City & Guilds Level 2 Certificate for IT Users (ITQ) 500/ NCFE Level 2 Award in Graphic Design (QCF) 6724/2 (QCF) 8379/X 600/ City & Guilds Level 2 Certificate in Engineering (QCF) 500/ NCFE Level 2 Certificate in Art and Design (QCF) 0880/5 8988/2 500/ City & Guilds Level 2 Diploma for IT Users (ITQ) 500/ NCFE Level 2 Certificate in Interactive Media (QCF) 6760/6 (QCF) 8456/2 500/ City & Guilds Level 2 Diploma for Software 500/ NCFE Level 2 Certificate in Performance Skills (QCF) 1729/9 Developers 9918/8 501/ City & Guilds Level 2 Diploma in ICT Systems and 501/ NCFE Level 2 Extended Certificate in Music 1859/6 Principles for IT Professionals (QCF) 1226/0 Technology (QCF) 500/ EAL Level 2 Diploma in Engineering Technology 500/ OCR Level 2 Certificate for Creative iMedia (QCF) 7595/0 (QCF) 8529/3 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Extended Certificate in Applied 500/ OCR Level 2 Diploma for Creative iMedia (QCF) 7453/2 Science (QCF) 8531/1 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 2 Diploma in Applied Science 500/ OCR Level 2 Certificate in IT User Skills (ITQ) (QCF) 6671/7 (QCF) 6743/6 47WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 48WS

QAN Qualification title Qualification title

OCR Level 2 National Certificate in Business6 Level 1 Principal Learning in Hospitality OCR Level 2 National Award in Business6 Level 1 Principal Learning in Manufacturing and Product Design OCR Level 2 National Certificate in Health and Social Level 1 Principal Learning in Public Services Care6 OCR Level 2 National Award in Health and Social Level 1 Principal Learning in Retail Business Care6 Level 1 Principal Learning in Sport and Active Leisure 6 OCR Level 2 National Certificate in ICT Level 1 Principal Learning in Travel and Tourism OCR Level 2 National Award in ICT6 OCR Level 2 National First Certificate in ICT6 QAN Qualification title OCR Level 2 National Certificate in Science6 500/ BCS Level 1 Certificate in IT User Skills (Digital OCR Level 2 National Award in Science6 6177/X Creator) (ITQ) (QCF) OCR Level 2 National Award in Sport6 600/ City & Guilds Level 1 Certificate in Engineering (QCF) 0879/9 OCR Level 2 National Certificate in Sport6 501/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Applied Science 501/ RSL Level 2 Certificate for Music Practitioners (QCF) 0075/0 (QCF) 0598/X 501/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Applied Science 501/ RSL Level 2 Extended Certificate for Music 0073/7 (QCF) 0665/X Practitioners (QCF) 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Art and Design 500/ TLM Level 2 Certificate in IT User Skills in Open 6540/3 (QCF) 8073/8 Systems and Enterprise (ITQ) 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Art and Design 6607/9 (QCF) Qualifications which are approved but will not be counted 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Business in the 5+A*-C GCSEs (or equivalent) including English 4991/4 Administration (QCF) and Maths measure7. 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Business 6536/1 Administration (QCF) a) Precursors to Level 2 qualifications which fully 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Construction demonstrate the characteristics set out in DfE Guidance. 6591/9 (QCF) 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Construction (QCF) Qualification title 6668/7 Level 1 Principal Learning in Construction and the Built Environment 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Creative Media 8423/9 Production (QCF) Level 1 Principal Learning in Creative and Media 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Creative Media Level 1 Principal Learning in Engineering 8544/X Production (QCF) Level 1 Principal Learning in IT 501/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Engineering (QCF) Level 1 Principal Learning in Society, Health and Development 0305/2 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Engineering (QCF) Due to the nature of Principal Learning qualifications, 9859/7 their inclusion is not specific to individual awarding 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Health and Social organisations. 5458/2 Care (QCF) b) Qualifications that will be included in performance 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Health and Social tables for the final time in 20148. These qualifications 6642/0 Care (QCF) 600/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Introduction to the are being redeveloped and the new versions would be 1238/9 Travel and Tourism Industry (QCF)12 included in Performance Tables if they fully demonstrate 600/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Introduction to the the required characteristics. 1231/6 Travel and Tourism Industry (QCF)12 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Performing Arts QAN Qualification title 6606/7 (QCF) 600/ AQA Level 1 Certificate in French (FCSE) Full Course9 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Performing Arts 3089/6 6669/9 (QCF) 600/ AQA Level 1 Certificate in German (FCSE) Full 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Certificate in Sport and Active 3092/6 Course9 4989/6 Leisure (QCF) 600/ AQA Level 1 Certificate in Spanish (FCSE) Full 500/ Edexcel BTEC Level 1 Diploma in Sport and Active 3155/4 Course9 6495/2 Leisure (QCF) 100/ Edexcel Level 1 Certificate in Digital Applications for 5323/2 IT Users c) Precursors to Level 2 qualifications that will be 100/ Edexcel Level 1 Extended Certificate in Digital included in 2014 Performance Tables. The linked Level 2 6441/2 Applications for IT Users qualifications are either subject to a review of their 100/ Edexcel Level 1 Diploma in Digital Applications for IT performance10 or are being redeveloped so that the new 5324/4 Users versions fully demonstrate the required characteristics11. 500/ NCFE Level 1 Award in Creative Craft using Art and The future inclusion of the Level 1 precursor is dependent 5959/2 Design (QCF) on the future inclusion of the Level 2 qualification. 500/ NCFE Level 1 Award in Graphic Design (QCF) 8454/9 Qualification title 500/ NCFE Level 1 Certificate in Interactive Media (QCF) 8053/2 Level 1 Principal Learning in Business, Administration and Finance 501/ NCFE Level 1 Certificate in Music Technology (QCF) Level 1 Principal Learning in Environmental and Land-based studies 1234/X 49WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 50WS

Research and production of the study has been carried QAN Qualification title out by international engineering consultancy Parsons 500/ NCFE Level 1 Certificate in Performance Skills (QCF) Brinckerhoff, in association with Cable Consulting 9177/3 International. It draws on a broad range of data from 500/ OCR Level 1 Certificate for Creative iMedia (QCF) manufacturers, installers, operators and other parties. 8533/5 National Grid has funded the work, and the IET has 500/ OCR Level 1 Diploma for Creative iMedia (QCF) provided independent quality assurance. 8534/7 Main findings are as follows: 500/ OCR Level 1 Diploma in IT User Skills (ITQ) (QCF) 6742/4 the cost of new power infrastructure varies considerably but installing new power circuits underground is always more 501/ RSL Level 1 Certificate for Music Practitioners (QCF) expensive than installing overhead lines; 0656/9 the study also identifies factors that have an impact on 501/ RSL Level 1 Extended Certificate for Music 0655/7 Practitioners (QCF) costs—such as terrain, distances and energy loss; 500/ TLM Level 1 Certificate in IT User Skills in Open the study’s remit purely relates to engineering costs, although 8080/5 Systems and Enterprise (ITQ) (QCF) it does acknowledge the aesthetic, human and environmental impacts, it makes no analysis of these areas. 500/ WJEC Level 1 Certificate in Latin Language 6787/4 Over the coming years major transmission reinforcements 500/ WJEC Level 1 Certificate in Latin Language and will be needed to connect Britain’s new power stations. 6788/6 Roman Civilisation Many people are concerned about the impact that new 500/ WJEC Level 1 Certificate in Latin Literature transmission lines can have on the landscape and on 6791/6 local communities, and it is therefore essential that these reinforcements are taken forward on the basis of 1Where a performance measure requires achievement of specific informed discussion and the best available knowledge. qualifications in specific subjects, e.g. percentage achieving 5 or The Government welcome this authoritative study which more GCSEs including English and maths, pupils will need to will provide a well-informed and objective baseline when achieve those qualifications and subjects. considering the costs and impacts of different transmission 2Accredited versions of qualifications which were being offered as line solutions. “iGCSE” and were being taken in independent and/or international schools before June 2010. Copies of the study have been placed in Libraries of both House and can be obtained from the IET website. 3Reviews of performance will examine evidence of pupil take up and progression in education or employment. www.theiet.org/factfiles/transmission.cfm. 4Approved subject to Section 96 approval by the DFE for teaching pre-16 (pending). ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS 5Qualifications will have demonstrated all required characteristics except one or more of those that relate to assessment. Canal & River Trust (Government Funding) 6Approved subject of Ofqual accreditation (pending). 7They will be included within other performance measures e.g. 5+A*-G. These are Level 1 qualifications which either demonstrate TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof StateforEnvironment, the characteristics in their own right or are precursors of Level 2 Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): I am pleased qualifications which are included. to announce to the House that I have concluded a 8 Qualifications will have demonstrated all required characteristics long-term funding deal with the trustees of the Canal & except one or more of those that relate to assessment. 9 River Trust (CRT), which will, subject to parliamentary Approved subject to Section 96 approval by the DFE for teaching approval, take over the ownership and management of pre-16 (pending). 10 the inland waterways in England and Wales from British Reviews of performance will examine evidence of pupil take up Waterways later this year. and progression in education or employment. 11Qualifications will have demonstrated all required characteristics The Government have already announced that the except one or more of those that relate to assessment. £460 million commercial property endowment historically 12Approved subject to Section 96 approval by the DFE for built up from surplus network property and used by teaching pre-16 (pending). British Waterways to fund the network infrastructure will be transferred to CRT for the same purposes, along with the rest of the network in England and Wales. In ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE order to get the Canal & River Trust off to the best possible start, DEFRA will also commit grant funding of some £800 million over the next 15 years (from Transmission Power Cable Costs 2012-13 to the end of 2026-27). The funding deal has the following major components: The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate A core grant of £39 million per year (index linked to inflation Change (Charles Hendry): The Institution of Engineering from 2015-16 onwards). and Technology (IET) has today published a comprehensive From 2015-16, an additional grant of £10 million per year (reduced gradually over the last five years of the grant study on the whole-life costs of installing new high agreement), conditional on the Canal & River Trust’s voltage transmission lines under the ground, under the performance against three standards: sea and over ground. satisfactory condition of principal assets, This study has been undertaken at the Government’s satisfactory condition of towpaths, and request in order to provide an authoritative and independent satisfactory flood risk management measures. point of reference for the Infrastructure Planning A £25 million one-off grant to be spread across the next few Commission in evaluating planning applications for months, and a capped “last resort” Government guarantee new transmission connections and reinforcements. in relation to the historic public sector pension liability. 51WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 52WS

A review will take place in 2021-22 to examine the case for In 2011, recorded violence levels fell significantly in the Government’s funding of public benefits from the waterways Regional Command South West, the UK’s area of beyond 2026-27. operations. However, these gains have been tempered by The CRT will also be required to publish annually a range of a notable increase in security incidents in the east of the data about the public benefits it delivers, to enable stakeholders country and a smaller rise in violence levels in Regional and the public to hold the charity to account. Command South. The uneven regional picture reminds This is a very good deal for the taxpayer, the waterways, us that the insurgency remains resilient, but they are the boaters and enthusiasts who care so passionately also under significant and sustained pressure in the about them, and for the many millions of people who areas where the Afghan National Security Forces and visit them every year. The trustees have welcomed the ISAF are focusing their efforts. In this context we have deal, which provides a firm financial footing for the seen the insurgency increasingly deploy less conventional trust. The trust will seize new opportunities to generate methods to execute their campaign: the use of IEDs has revenue through donations, charitable grants and legacies, increased and they have focused their efforts on a series increased borrowing powers, efficiencies and volunteering of high-profile assassinations and ‘spectacular’ attacks activity. intended to undermine local perceptions of security. The Canal & River Trust will inherit British Waterways’ From a security perspective 2012 is likely to see further responsibilities for maintaining heritage sites, wildlife challenges as the insurgency attempts to regain its habitats and open spaces, so that all can enjoy them for momentum. However, our resolve to achieve our stated generations to come. It will help realise public benefits aims in Afghanistan endures, and we will continue to such as green travel to work, health and well-being, work alongside the Afghans to consolidate the gains support to the inner cities and rural regeneration. of 2011. This deal is a further expression of our commitment I am placing the report in the Library of the House. to building up the big society. The new charity will It will also be published on the Foreign and Commonwealth involve local communities and volunteers in shaping the Office website (www.fco.gov.uk). future of our waterways. Subject to satisfactory conclusion of outstanding issues, the Government plan to lay the order to transfer statutory functions from British Waterways to the Canal & River Trust in Parliament at the end of February. HOME DEPARTMENT Subject to Parliament’s approval, we hope to see the new charity launched in June.

Police Grant Report in England and Wales 2012-13 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE

Afghanistan Progress Report (December 2011) The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): My right hon. Friend, the Home Secretary, has today laid before the House the Police Grant Report The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth (England and Wales) 2012-13 (HC 1797). The report Affairs (Mr William Hague): I wish to inform the House sets out my right hon. Friend’s determination for 2012-13 that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together of the aggregate amount of grant that she proposes to with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for pay under section 46(2) of the Police Act 1996, and the International Development, is today publishing the amount to be paid to the Greater London authority for thirteenth progress report on developments in Afghanistan the Mayor’s office for policing and crime. since November 2010. At the time the provisional police grant report was At the Bonn conference the international community laid on 8 December 2011, respondents to the subsequent agreed in principle to provide financial support to consultation were asked specifically to comment on Afghanistan for the decade after transition in 2014. For whether a top-slice of capital grant should be made in their part, the Government of Afghanistan committed order to fund the National Police Air Service. The to continue to progress with vital economic and governance responses to the consultation have been carefully considered, reform. In support of this, the UK is helping local and the decision has been taken to top-slice the police government deliver better services for local people by capital grant in order to provide the necessary funding assisting provincial governors’ offices with management for the service. training, and by supporting the implementation of development projects identified by communities in After careful consideration of the consultation responses, previously insecure districts. The new DFID funded all other funding allocations set out in my written Afghanistan Business Innovation Fund opened in ministerial statement of 8 December 2011, Official Report, December, inviting proposals for business ideas that columns 50-55WS, remain unchanged. will create sustainable jobs. In addition to this, a one-off additional payment of Nationwide the security situation in Afghanistan is £90 million will be made to the Mayor’s office for improving and 2011 marked the first time that year-on-year policing and crime in 2012-13. This payment will help violence levels decreased since the International Security to maintain operational capabilities while policing the Assistance Force mission was expanded in 2006. This Olympics, Paralympics, World Pride and the Queen’s nationwide view of Afghanistan, while positive and a diamond jubilee. This funding will help to maintain good indication of overall progress, should not distract resilience during this period and comes on top of the our attention from a varied regional picture. police spending review settlement. 53WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 54WS

Table 1: Police revenue funding 2012-13 Table 3: Revenue allocations for England and Wales 2012-13 2012-13 Police £m Authority/ PCC Total Formula Funding: CLG HO Welsh (including Comprising: Core NPF Top-up WG CT freeze) Home Office Police Main Grant 4,251 £m £m £m £m £m National, International and Capital City Grant (MOPC 189 only) Greater 230.2 17.3 0.0 0.0 209.8 Manchester DCLG General Grant 3,213 Gwent 44.7 2.9 0.0 33.0 0.0 Of which council tax (11-12) freeze grant 75 Hampshire 128.1 7.6 0.0 0.0 72.4 WAG General Grant 151 Hertfordshire 73.9 5.3 0.0 0.0 43.5 Humberside 69.5 4.7 0.0 0.0 53.3 Total Home Office Specific Grants: Kent 109.5 8.0 0.0 0.0 78.8 Comprising: Lancashire 105.7 8.2 0.0 0.0 89.2 Welsh Top-up 13 Leicestershire 67.3 4.7 0.0 0.0 46.4 Neighbourhood Policing Fund (NPF) 338 Lincolnshire 39.8 2.9 0.0 0.0 24.2 Counter Terrorism Specific Grant 564 Merseyside 127.0 9.8 0.0 0.0 127.6 PCC Elections 50* Norfolk 53.7 3.9 0.0 0.0 32.4 PFI Grant 54 North Wales 46.2 3.3 6.5 24.8 0.0 North 43.9 3.4 0.0 0.0 31.3 Total Government Funding 8,830** Yorkshire % cash change in Total Government Funding -5% Northamptonshire 45.2 3.0 0.0 0.0 28.1 *Any additional funding required will be provided from outside the Northumbria 115.0 8.9 0.0 0.0 120.1 police settlement **This includes a small amount of funding that will form part of a Nottinghamshire 80.7 5.5 0.0 0.0 54.9 contingency fund, which is not shown in the table above. South Wales 92.7 6.7 0.0 77.6 0.0 South 102.7 6.6 0.0 0.0 90.1 Table 2: Division of police capital between funding streams Yorkshire 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Staffordshire 68.6 4.5 0.0 0.0 47.8 £m £m £m Suffolk 42.8 3.1 0.0 0.0 26.5 Capital Grant 118 106 109 Surrey 65.0 4.4 0.0 0.0 35.7 National Police 11 13 10 Sussex 101.1 7.2 0.0 0.0 64.2 Air Service Thames 147.0 9.1 0.0 0.0 87.4 Special Grant 111Valley Capital Warwickshire 32.7 2.8 0.0 0.0 19.8 Total 130 120 120 West Mercia 68.6 5.3 0.0 0.0 51.1 West 252.9 15.9 0.0 0.0 213.5 Table 3: Revenue allocations for England and Wales 2012-13 Midlands Police West 179.3 14.3 0.0 0.0 143.4 Authority/ Yorkshire PCC Wiltshire 38.7 2.8 0.0 0.0 24.8 CLG Total England 4,440.1 338.0 12.8 151.0 3,213.2 HO Welsh (including & Wales Core NPF Top-up WG CT freeze) £m £m £m £m £m Table 4: Capital allocations for England and Wales 2012-13 to Avon & 112.7 7.3 0.0 0.0 62.5 2014-15 Somerset Police Authority/ 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Bedfordshire 40.8 2.7 0.0 0.0 28.2 PCC Cambridgeshire 50.0 3.6 0.0 0.0 29.0 £m £m £m Cheshire 64.3 4.8 0.0 0.0 51.6 Avon & Somerset 2.6 2.3 2.4 City of 30.2 1.3 0.0 0.0 27.3 Bedfordshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 London Cambridgeshire 1.3 1.2 1.2 Cleveland 47.5 2.9 0.0 0.0 44.4 Cheshire 1.7 1.5 1.5 Cumbria 30.5 2.3 0.0 0.0 34.9 City of London 0.9 0.8 0.9 Derbyshire 65.0 3.7 0.0 0.0 44.5 Cleveland 1.3 1.2 1.2 Devon & 110.5 7.5 0.0 0.0 70.3 Cornwall Cumbria 0.9 0.8 0.9 Dorset 42.4 3.2 0.0 0.0 21.3 Derbyshire 1.6 1.4 1.5 Durham 44.3 3.3 0.0 0.0 42.4 Devon & 2.8 2.5 2.6 Cornwall Dyfed-Powys 32.1 1.6 6.3 15.7 0.0 Dorset 1.1 1.0 1.0 Essex 109.5 7.2 0.0 0.0 63.6 Durham 1.3 1.1 1.2 Gloucestershire 36.2 3.2 0.0 0.0 22.2 Dyfed-Powys 0.8 0.7 0.8 Greater 1,051.6 101.3 0.0 0.0 854.5 London Essex 2.4 2.2 2.2 authority Gloucestershire 1.0 0.9 0.9 55WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 56WS

Table 4: Capital allocations for England and Wales 2012-13 to To the families of the service personnel who have 2014-15 given their lives for their country, in connection with the Police Authority/ 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, we would like to PCC convey our sincere condolences and particularly to those £m £m £m families of the 12 service personnel who have died since Greater 6.0 5.4 5.5 our last statement in October. These families, and all Manchester the bereaved families who have lost loved ones during Gwent 1.2 1.0 1.1 these operations, continue to be in our thoughts. Hampshire 3.0 2.7 2.8 Today we are announcing the current status of inquests Hertfordshire 1.5 1.4 1.4 conducted by the Wiltshire and Swindon coroner, the Humberside 1.8 1.6 1.7 Oxfordshire coroner, and other coroners in England Kent 2.8 2.5 2.5 and Wales. This statement gives the position at 24 January Lancashire 2.8 2.5 2.6 2012. Leicestershire 1.8 1.6 1.6 To supplement this statement I have placed tables in Lincolnshire 1.0 0.9 0.9 the Libraries of both Houses. These tables outline the Merseyside 3.5 3.1 3.2 status of all current cases and show the date of death in Metropolitan 31.3 28.1 29.0 each case. They also include information about cases Norfolk 1.4 1.2 1.3 where a board of inquiry or a service inquiry has been North Wales 1.2 1.1 1.1 held. North Yorkshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 Our Departments will continue to work closely together Northamptonshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 to improve our processes and continue the Government’s Northumbria 3.3 2.9 3.0 support for coroners who are conducting inquests into Nottinghamshire 1.9 1.7 1.8 operational deaths. With that in mind, we wish to South Wales 2.5 2.3 2.3 express further thanks to all the coroners, and their South Yorkshire 2.8 2.5 2.6 staff, for their dedicated work as well as to all those who Staffordshire 1.8 1.6 1.6 provide support and information, both throughout the Suffolk 1.1 1.0 1.0 inquest process and afterwards. Surrey 1.6 1.4 1.5 Since October 2007 both Departments have provided Sussex 2.3 2.1 2.2 additional resources to ensure that there is no backlog Thames Valley 3.8 3.4 3.5 of operational inquests. These resources have been provided Warwickshire 1.1 1.0 1.0 to the Wiltshire and Swindon coroner, Mr David Ridley, West Mercia 1.9 1.7 1.7 as prior to 1 September 2011 repatriation of service West Midlands 6.3 5.7 5.9 personnel took place within his district at RAF Lyneham. West Yorkshire 4.6 4.2 4.3 We are also providing additional resources to the Wiltshire 1.0 0.9 1.0 Oxfordshire coroner, Mr Nicholas Gardiner, as repatriation Total England & 118.2 106.0 109.3 ceremonies for those killed on operations overseas now Wales take place within his district at RAF Brize Norton. Current status of inquests UK Border Agency (Report) Since the last statement there have been 17 inquests into the deaths of service personnel on operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. The Secretary of State for the Home Department A total of 515 inquests have been held into the deaths (Mrs Theresa May): Following the resignation of Brodie of service personnel who have lost their lives in Iraq and Clark, a senior UK Border Agency official, last November, Afghanistan, including 19 service personnel who died I asked John Vine, the Independent Chief Inspector of in the UK of their injuries. In three further cases, no the UK Border Agency, to carry out an independent formal inquest was held. In two of these cases the investigation into border checks conducted by the UK deaths were taken into consideration during inquest Border Agency. Mr Vine has asked for more time to proceedings for those who died in the same incident. In complete his investigation. Once I have received his the third case, where the serviceman died of his injuries final report I will update the House after constituency in Scotland, it was decided not to hold a fatal accident recess on both the findings of the report and on the inquiry. action the Government will take. Open inquests JUSTICE Fatalities in Iraq and Afghanistan There are currently 57 open inquests to be concluded Inquests (Service Personnel Overseas) into the deaths of service personnel who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Twenty-one of these involve deaths in the last six months. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): My hon. Friend the Minister The Wiltshire and Swindon coroner has retained for the Armed Forces and I wish to make the latest of 14 of the remaining open inquests, the Oxfordshire our quarterly statements to the House giving details of coroner has retained six of the open inquests, and the inquests of service personnel who have died overseas. 29 are being conducted by coroners closer to the next-of-kin. We would also like to express our sincere gratitude to all Hearing dates have been set in 11 cases. of our service personnel who have served, or are now There is one remaining open inquest into deaths from serving, in Iraq and Afghanistan. operations in Iraq. 57WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 58WS

Inquests into the deaths of service personnel who returned Local Enterprise Partnerships would be central to home injured decisions, to ensure that transport investment is fully Eight inquests remain to be held of service personnel aligned with plans for economic development. Local who returned home injured and subsequently died of Enterprise Partnerships can play a strong role in helping their injuries. Two hearing dates have been set. The to make the tough trade-offs between competing priorities remaining six cases will be listed for hearing when the and will have a say in investment financing. Transport continuing investigations are completed. authorities, however, would also be crucial given their We shall continue to inform the House of progress expertise, responsibilities and leadership role on transport with the remaining inquests. matters. The new system would encourage decision-making across Local Enterprise Partnership boundaries to local TRANSPORT transport consortia—groupings of Local Enterprise Partnership areas—in order to manage a handful of big schemes, which were experienced under previous systems. Local Major Transport Schemes (Consultation) However, the Government will not force consortia formations, which would risk creating ineffective and The Secretary of State for Transport (Justine Greening): artificial partnerships that lack legitimacy. Today I am launching a consultation paper to take Instead it will be for local areas to decide what forward discussions for deciding a new devolved system collaborations are right for them and to prioritise eligible for prioritising and funding local major transport schemes transport interventions, which they collectively agree to for the next spending review period—schemes which deliver local growth. have cost over £5 million. In return for greater devolution, central Government The previous Government’s regional funding allocation will need assurances on effective governance, financial process failed to give local people and communities management, accountability and the achievement of proper transparency for decisions, and control over value for money—matters which businesses and local spending—investment decisions were taken centrally authorities do every day. and it was a bureaucratic and inefficient system which In particular, the Government propose that while hampered local enterprise and delivery. The Government local areas will have the freedom to decide their own have already made efficiencies on the programme of priorities and appraise individual schemes, all schemes schemes inherited from this process. In total, schemes would need to follow the Transport Business Case commencing construction in this spending review period framework and be appraised in line with webTAG, the are forecast to deliver benefits of around £8 for every Department’s best practice and well-evidenced guidance £1 of public money spent, with a 34% reduction in the on transport appraisal and evaluation. central Government contribution compared to previous Individual schemes would also be expected to be plans. dealt with transparently, in particular through the We now have the opportunity of developing a new publication of business cases at each stage of scheme system for beyond 2015. A system which ensures that development, individual schemes meeting minimum value the best outcomes are achieved for the economy while for money thresholds, ongoing review and monitoring, balancing the need for developing sustainably and reducing and pre and post delivery evaluation of scheme benefits. carbon emissions; a system which hands real power to The offer of devolution will be available to all, but local communities; and a system which is fit for purpose different local areas will have different challenges and in practical delivery terms. ambitions. The Government will take an individual As local major transport schemes can take on average approach with each local transport body to put in place four years to move from business case to the start of a tailored system that is fit for purpose and secures construction, it is vital that we begin to develop a new value for money for the taxpayer. system now. And to fully empower local areas means I welcome responses to the consultation paper. The giving them freedoms and flexibilities they have not had consultation runs from 31 January 2012 until 2 April 2012. before. This is shorter than the usual 12 weeks but will help Proposals set out in the consultation paper include: ensure there is a system in place which enables local using a population based formula to allocate funding areas to begin to construct schemes by 2015. rather than putting in place a costly bidding process; a Following the end of the consultation, my Department locally led assessment process for prioritising schemes, will consider all responses and produce a summary reducing the role of central Government which many report alongside setting out the next steps. I will make a local areas perceive as costly, time-consuming and further statement to the House at that point. autocratic; and putting Local Enterprise Partnership areas in the driving seat over which transport schemes are delivered. WORK AND PENSIONS The Government are proposing to devolve decisions to democratically accountable local transport bodies involving Local Enterprise Partnerships and local NEST (Revised Auto-enrolment Timetable) authorities, which are given responsibility for establishing a prioritised programme of schemes for investment. These local transport bodies would oversee the delivery The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions of individual schemes, but would not be the vehicle for (Steve Webb): on 25 January, the Government published delivery, which would remain with individual local a revised timetable for the roll-out of the automatic authorities or other relevant delivery agencies. enrolment duties from 2012. 59WS Written Ministerial Statements31 JANUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 60WS

The statement associated with the new timetable included This means that a lower proportion of workers in large the following paragraph: and medium-sized firms will need to be automatically “Medium sized employers will be re-allocated automatic enrolment enrolled. A lower proportion of the 9 to 10 million dates between 1st April 2014 and 1st April 2015. This means that workers eligible for automatic enrolment will therefore the implementation dates of some of these employers will be up be enrolled in this Parliament. to nine months later. However, this still means that around 70% of As a result of this, the paragraph above should now eligible workers will be automatically enrolled before the end read as follows: of this Parliament compared with around 75% under previous arrangements.” “Medium sized employers will be re-allocated automatic enrolment dates between 1st April 2014 and 1st April 2015. This means that Since publishing this statement the modelling the implementation dates of some of these employers will be up assumptions have been revisited. This affects the analysis to nine months later. However, this still means that around 55% of of the existing implementation profile as well as the eligible workers will be automatically enrolled before the end of this impact of the proposals outlined last week. Existing Parliament compared with around 65% under previous arrangements.” participation in workplace pensions is higher in large I apologise for this revision and for any confusion and medium-sized firms than in small and micro firms. this may cause. 5P Petitions31 JANUARY 2012 Petitions 6P Petitions Teachers’ Pension Scheme The Petition of staff at John Leggott College, Scunthorpe, and Frederick Gough School, Scunthorpe, Tuesday 31 January 2012 Declares that the Petitioners note that the Teachers’ Pension Scheme, along with other schemes, was reformed OBSERVATIONS in 2007 to ensure sustainability and viability for the long term, declares that the Petitioners reject the Government’s claim that such schemes are unaffordable EDUCATION and a drain on taxpayers, further declares that the Petitioners believe that proposed changes to public Free Fruit for Young Children sector pensions, including those of teachers, lecturers, principles and head teachers working in maintained The Petition of children from Northway Primary and schools, academics, independent schools and teaching Nursery School, colleges are unjustified and declares that the Petitioners Declares that the Petitioners oppose the cancelling of believe that continuing Government changes to these free fruit for young children due to cuts to local authority pensions will be deeply damaging to staff recruitment, funding; notes that fruit provides children with the retention, mobility, morale and motivation and will essential vitamins they need to keep strong, fit, active jeopardise the education of all children and young and healthy; further notes that as a snack, fruit provides people. children with extra energy between breakfast and lunch which helps them to learn and declares that the Petitioners The Petitioners therefore request that the House of believe that the free fruit scheme may be the only way Commons urges the Government to withdraw its proposals that some children are able to get fruit, as parents in on reform of teachers’ pensions, and conduct a valuation financial difficulty may not be able to afford to buy fruit of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme. for their children. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Nic Dakin, Official Report, 7 November 2011; Vol. 535, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of c. 134.] Commons urges the Government to reconsider their deep cuts to local authority funding so that Liverpool [P000974] City Council can afford to maintain its free fruit scheme in schools. The Petition of teachers in the Cynon Valley, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Luciana Declares that the Petitioners note that the Teachers’ Berger, Official Report, 9 November 2011; Vol. 535, Pension Scheme, along with other schemes, was reformed c. 409.] in 2007 to ensure sustainability and viability for the [P000976] long term, declares that the Petitioners reject the Government’s claim that such schemes are unaffordable Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: and a drain on taxpayers, further declares that the The School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme (SFVS), Petitioners believe that proposed changes to public which is administered by DH, is a key part of the 5 A sector pensions, including those of teachers, lecturers, DAY programme and is complemented by a number principles, head teachers and vice-chancellors working of government programmes to improve young in maintained schools, academics, independent schools, people’s diets and which encourage higher fruit and universities and teaching colleges are unjustified and vegetable consumption. These Include: Healthy Start, declares that the Petitioners believe that continuing Change4Life and the nutritional standards for school Government changes to these pensions will be deeply food. damaging to staff recruitment, retention, mobility, morale Under the SFVS, all four to six year old children in and motivation and will jeopardise the education of all Key Stage 1 in fully State-funded infant, primary and children and young people. special schools throughout England are eligible to receive The Petitioners therefore request that the House of a free piece of fruit or vegetable every school day. Commons urges the Government to withdraw its proposals Liverpool City Council was one of a few local on reform of teachers’ pensions, and conduct a valuation authorities which funded the extension of the SFVS to of the Teachers’ Pension Scheme. its Key Stage 2 children. It appears that it is this And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Ann extension which the council has decided not to continue Clwyd, Official Report, 22 November 2011; Vol. 536, to fund—Key Stage 1 children will continue to receive c. 2P.] free fruit and vegetables through the SFVS which continues, unchanged. [P000985] Every part of the public sector needs to do its bit Observations from the Secretary of State for Education: to help reduce the legacy of Government debt and The cost of public service pensions has increased the massive overdraft that the coalition Government dramatically because people are living longer, on average have inherited. Councils account for around a quarter ten years longer than in the 1970s. This means that the of all public expenditure so they have to play their part. cost of providing public service pension schemes such As democratically elected organisations, local authorities as the Teachers’ Pension Scheme (TPS) is increasing. are independent from central Government, and responsible That is why the Government commissioned Lord Hutton for their own finances. This means that spending decisions to undertake an independent review of pension provision are for individual councils to make. in the public service and to make recommendations 7P Petitions31 JANUARY 2012 Petitions 8P about how such pensions can be made sustainable and Unions are now expected to take the outline reformed affordable, whilst remaining fair to the workforce and scheme design to their Executives for agreement, consulting the taxpayer. members as appropriate. In his final report, published in March 2011, Lord Scheme valuations are dependent on assumptions Hutton recommended changes to public service pension about the value of future costs, design of benefits and schemes. In making his recommendations Lord Hutton many other factors. Many of these are being considered considered carefully previous public service pension further in the context of the core design for a reformed reforms (in 2007 in the case of the TPS) but concluded TPS announced on 20 December. The Government that further reform is needed to ensure the long term have therefore decided that it would not be a sensible fairness, affordability and sustainability of public service use of public funds to undertake costly actuarial valuations pension schemes. The Government accepted Lord Hutton’s at this stage. recommendations as the basis for consultation and Ministers have been meeting constructively with trade The reformed TPS will remain one of the best available. unions and other representative bodies to discuss proposals It is a valuable part of the remuneration package available for reform. to teachers and will continue to play an important role On 20 December the Secretary of State made a in recruiting and retaining teachers. The Government Written Ministerial Statement confirming the outcome are committed to agreeing a set of reforms that will not of discussions with teacher unions on reform of the only sustain high quality pension provision for teachers TPS. The statement set out the core parameters for the in the long term, but that also reflects the distinctive design of a reformed TPS, to be introduced in 2015. nature of the profession. 517W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 518W

The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Written Answers to (CPS) spent the following amounts on translation and interpretation services in each of the last five financial Questions years: Expenditure (£) Tuesday 31 January 2012 2006-07 1,340,401 2007-08 1,521,351 2008-09 1,639,160 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION 2009-10 1,787,386 2010-11 2,065,813 Catering Freedom of Information Mrs Hodgson: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Attorney-General the House of Commons Commission, how many whether the Law Officers’ Departments publishes on customers used the Jubilee Café in the last year; what their websites their response to each request they proportion of customers only purchased drinks; and receive under the Freedom of Information Act 2000; what proportion of customers purchased food. [91829] whether the response is published in the same part of their websites on each occasion; and what the average John Thurso: In the 12 months to December 2011, a time taken is between responding to a request and the total of 74,209 transactions were recorded in the information being made available on their websites. Jubilee Café. A transaction is defined as a purchase, [92131] with payment, at the point of sale. The purchase may be for one or multiple customers paid for in a single The Attorney-General: The Attorney-General’s transaction. Office (AGO), Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), No record is kept of the proportion of customers Treasury Solicitors Department (TSol) or Her purchasing drinks only or purchasing food in the Jubilee Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate Café. (HMCPSI) do not currently publish FOI responses on their websites. The hon. Lady might find it helpful to speak directly to the Director of Catering and Retail Services on these The Serious Fraud Office publishes responses on its detailed matters. website where it has provided information, either wholly or partially. No record is kept on the time taken between responding to such requests and their publication on the website. LEADER OF THE HOUSE Third Sector Freedom of Information Mr Thomas: To ask the Attorney-General what Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Leader of the House contribution the Law Officers’ Departments are whether his Office publishes on its website its response making to implementation of the Compact with the to each request it receives under the Freedom of voluntary sector; and if he will make a statement. Information Act 2000; whether the response is [92293] published in the same part of its website on each occasion; and what the average time taken is between The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution responding to a request and the information being Service (CPS) is committed to the principles of the made available on the website. [92127] compact in its engagement with a range of Civil Society Organisations (CSOs). Such engagement takes place on Sir George Young: I refer the hon. Member to the a regular basis both at a national and local level through answer given by the Minister for the Cabinet Office and set structures. Paymaster General, my right hon. Friend the Member At a national level engagement takes place on a for Horsham (Mr Maude), on 30 January 2012, Official quarterly basis through the Community Accountability Report, column 415W. Forum (CAF), which includes as its membership national CSOs. National engagement also takes place on specific policies to help ensure that these take on board the perspective, views and concerns of communities and are ATTORNEY-GENERAL responsive to need. At a local level the CPS has established Local Scrutiny Crown Prosecution Service: Translation Services and Involvement Panels (LSIPs), whose membership includes local CSOs, in order to meaningfully and regularly Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Attorney-General engage on local issues and concerns and to improve how much the Crown Prosecution Service spent on transparency.A range of other engagement and partnership translation and interpretation services in each of the working takes place locally on specific local issues and last five financial years; and if he will make a concerns—examples include violence against women statement. [92429] and girls crimes and hate crimes. 519W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 520W

In relation to volunteering, the CPS successfully launched The average time taken between responding to a its Pro Bono and Volunteers Network (CPVN) in June 2009 request and the information being available on the in order to enable staff to take an active role in volunteering Scotland Office website is not readily available without in the community. incurring disproportionate cost; however, responses The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) aims to ensure that are published each month. Requests responded to in it works in partnership with Civil Society Organisation December 2011 have already been published, and requests (CSO) to achieve common goals and outcomes for the responded to in January 2012 will be published in early benefit of communities and citizens in England. The February. SFO achieves this in a number of ways. The SFO works with the Witness Service, Victim Support and Public Concern at work to support the WORK AND PENSIONS victims of fraud and whistleblowers. The SFO also supports events to raise public awareness of serious Departmental Statistics economic crime. These events are often run by CSO’s such as Transparency International and Aged Concern. Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for As part of its commitment to equality and diversity Work and Pensions on what occasions the Chair of the the SFO works with Stonewall to promote a fairer UK Statistics Authority has written to him expressing workplace. concern about his Department’s use of statistics since Finally the SFO sponsors a volunteering scheme to May 2010. [92703] enable members of staff to get involved with local projects to support the Big Society. Chris Grayling: Correspondence between the UK The Attorney-General’s Office, Treasury Solicitor’s Statistics Authority and the Secretary of State for Work Department (TSOL) and the HM Crown Prosecution and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Service Inspectorate do not have direct working relationships Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), is with CSO’s because of the nature of their work is published on the authority’s website and has been placed focused on providing services to other Government in the Library: Departments. Consequently they are not involved in http://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/reports--- designing or delivering services, programmes or policies correspondence/correspondence/index.html for citizens and communities, or providing funding to any civil society organisations. Employment and Support Allowance: HIV Infection TSol does however have a number of staff who volunteer on a regular basis for the GLS Pro Bono Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Network, and provides special leave for those who act and Pensions when he (a) last met and (b) next plans as a magistrate, school governor or trustee of a charity. to meet representatives of HIV organisations to discuss In addition the Department allows staff one day’s paid ways of improving the work capability assessment special leave per year to undertake ’community or voluntary handbook and other guidance material used by Atos. work which is for the benefit of others outside their [92774] immediate friends and family. Chris Grayling: Ministers and officials hold regular meetings about the work capability assessment (WCA) with a range of stakeholders including those representing SCOTLAND people with HIV.The National Aids Trust were represented Freedom of Information at ministerial launch of the second independent review of the WCA on 24 November 2011. The National Aids Trust are also part of the group of stakeholders Professor Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Harrington has asked to look at the way the WCA Scotland whether his Department publishes on its accounts for fluctuating conditions. Their report was website its response to each request it receives under submitted to the Department during late November the Freedom of Information Act 2000; whether the and we are considering these proposals closely. response is published in the same part of its website on each occasion; and what the average time taken is Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for Work between responding to a request and the information and Pensions if he will ensure that HIV awareness being made available on the website. [92111] training is delivered to staff of (a) his Department and (b) Atos. [92775] David Mundell: The Scotland Office publishes its response to each request where the request is granted in Chris Grayling: The Department of Work and Pensions full and other responses where there is a substantial (DWP) trains its staff in the skills required to support a public interest in the information being disclosed. We range of customers and claimants and to respect their also keep our criteria for disclosure under regular review. individual needs. This approach ensures that our employees Latest releases are routinely published on the Scotland are equipped to deal with a diverse set of circumstances Office website at: while treating everyone as an individual. http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/ The learning programme for DWP focuses on raising 15263.141.html awareness of the claimants’ personal circumstances and and releases relating to previous years can be viewed at: also recognises that disabilities and health conditions http://www.scotlandoffice.gov.uk/scotlandoffice/ can affect individuals in different ways and will change 9794.142.html over time. 521W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 522W

(a) DWP staff receive learning which covers excellent Table 1: Flexible new deal spend by contract package area and year customer service, diversity and customer needs. This Spend £ million learning deals with the wide range of circumstances October 2009 to October that our claimants may have, some less obvious than September 2010 to others, and stresses how important it is to look for signs CPA Districts 2010 termination where the claimant does not give us this information CPA01 Ayrshire, Dumfries, Galloway and 37.3 17.9 directly and to offer appropriate support. Inverclyde; Edinburgh, Lothian and A number of job roles within DWP, including front borders facing staff, visiting officers and decision makers undertake CPA02 North East Yorkshire and the 44.8 22.6 training which raises awareness of HIV related illness Humber; Tees Valley CPA03 Greater Manchester Central; Greater 41.7 21.6 and how this affects individuals. Specifically, an event Manchester West and East called ‘Raising the Game’ is aimed at elevating staffs CPA04 Derbyshire; South Yorkshire 38.6 19.6 awareness of disability and perceptions of disabled CPA05 South East Wales, North and Mid 19.7 10.3 people. This national event includes information on Wales HIV and AIDS. CPA06 Coventry and Warwickshire; The 39.9 15.9 Marches; Staffordshire All DWP staff have access to information about HIV CPA07 Leicestershire and Northamptonshire; 40.2 21.3 through guidance on the DWP intranet. Nottinghamshire (b) All Atos health care professionals receive an CPA08 Cambridgeshire and Suffolk; 34.7 16.8 evidence-based protocol on HIV/AIDS as part of their Lincolnshire and Rutland; Norfolk new entrant training. In addition they have access to a CPA09 Birmingham and Solihull 43.1 15.7 learning set on HIV/AIDs as part of the Atos programme CPA10 Black Country 31.0 17.4 CPA11 South West Wales, South Wales 20.4 11.8 of continuing medical education. Valleys CPA12 Central London; Lambeth, Southwark 55.1 24.6 and Wandsworth Employment Schemes: Third Sector CPA13 Surrey and Sussex; Kent 46.8 21.4 CPA14 Devon and Cornwall 12.8 7.0 Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for All 505.8 244.0 Work and Pensions whether he intends to publish data Source: DWP accounting system. on the level of referrals to voluntary and community sector providers under the Work programme; how The costs to termination includes spending on exit often such data will be published; and if he will make a costs due to the early termination of flexible new deal statement. [92702] contracts arising from roll-out of the new Work programme. Negotiations with two service providers have not yet been concluded and therefore the final figures may Chris Grayling: Voluntary and community sector change. providers delivering the Work programme are represented at all levels i.e. as prime providers and as tier one, and Pensioners: Housing Benefit tier two, supply chain partners. The Department has no plans to publish data for referrals below prime provider Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Work level or to release information by sector. and Pensions what estimate he has made of the Work programme Official Statistics, including referrals proportion of social housing tenants likely to be data, will be published for the first time on 21 February affected by the proposed changes to housing benefit 2012 with subsequent publications published quarterly, relating to under-occupancy who will be pensioners. and will be prepared in accordance with the code of [92963] practice for Official Statistics. Steve Webb: The information is not available. The Department for Work and Pensions has The introduction of size criteria from 2013/14 for commissioned a consortium led by the Institute for housing benefit claimants living in the social rented Employment Studies (IES) to undertake an independent sector will only affect working-age claimants. evaluation of the Work programme. Evaluation work started in autumn 2011 and will conclude in 2014. The age threshold for distinguishing working-age from pension-age for benefit purposes is generally based upon the qualifying age for pension credit. This age New Deal Schemes threshold is gradually increasing over time. A small number of claimants over this age threshold may choose to claim a working-age benefit, such as income-based Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for jobseeker’s allowance instead of pension credit. These Work and Pensions what the annual contract value of claimants would also be treated as working-age for the Flexible New Deal was in each contract package housing benefit purposes. area between October 2009 and the close of the For couples currently claiming housing benefit, both programme. [92701] the claimant and their partner need to be under the qualifying age for pension credit to be treated as working- Chris Grayling: The information you requested is age. When universal credit is introduced, if either member contained in table 1 as follows, which shows annual in a couple is under the qualifying age for pension credit contract values for each flexible new deal contract package then the couple would be treated as working-age. They area (CPA) from October 2009 to the close of the would then be expected to access universal credit rather programme. than pension credit. 523W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 524W

It is intended that those already in receipt of pension Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for credit at the point of change will be protected, and Work and Pensions whether it is his policy that tenants continue to receive pension credit as long as they continue should normally submit their documents by post rather to meet the other qualifying conditions. than over the counter when making applications for universal credit. [92704] Unemployed People: Mental Illness Chris Grayling: My Department is currently working Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for on its plans for gathering the evidence required to Work and Pensions what representations he has support a universal credit claim, and is yet to reach a received on the assessment of mental health disorders conclusion on this issue. amongst people undergoing return-to-work interviews at jobcentres. [92106] Work Capability Assessment

Chris Grayling: I am not aware of any representations Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for in relation to the specific question asked. However, it is Work and Pensions how many stream 2 referrals were Jobcentre Plus policy to develop its people in the skills made in relation to Atos healthcare professionals in the required to support a range of customers with a variety last year for which figures are available. [92427] of health conditions, including mental health conditions. This approach ensures that they are equipped to deal Chris Grayling: Atos has received inquiries from the with a diverse set of circumstances whilst treating customers GMC relating to 19 doctors during 2011 that were as individuals. Skilled employment advisers look at the categorised as stream 2 by the GMC. interaction between the person, the job and an individual’s ability, advisers ensure that job goals relate to the persons’ abilities and that work solutions are sought which overcome CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT any barriers a customer might face in a particular job. All Jobcentre Plus staff who require a basic introduction Advertising: Abortion to mental illness and working with customers with a diagnosis of mental illness have the opportunity to Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, attend a one day event which discusses what mental Olympics, Media and Sport what powers he has to illness is, how it is viewed, and provides an understanding oversee advertisements for abortion services by for- of the mental illness spectrum. profit organisations before they are broadcast; and if he will make a statement. [92151] Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Vaizey: The advertising rule changes recently Work and Pensions how many claimants undertaking announced relate to the provision of post-conception (a) return-to-work interviews have indicated they have advice services not abortion services. ongoing mental health disorders, (b) subsequently been placed on jobseeker’s allowance and (c) appealed The controls on the broadcast advertising of post- against a decision to place them on jobseeker’s conception advice services are the responsibility of the allowance; and what the outcome of such appeals was advertising regulators, Ofcom, the Broadcast Committee in each of the last 18 months. [92108] of Advertising Practice (BCAP) and the Advertising Standards Authority (ASA). These bodies are independent Chris Grayling: The information requested is not of Government and they set the standards for all broadcast available. advertising. The Government have no powers to review Universal Credit advertisements before they are broadcast.

Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Travel Work and Pensions on which date he expects all applications for in-work support to be for universal Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for credit rather than tax credits. [92700] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether his Department has agreed any contracts with (a) private Chris Grayling: The universal credit migration approach hire vehicle and (b) taxi companies since May 2010. published on 1 November set out how DWP will start [92838] to take new claims to universal credit from October 2013 and that new claims to the current benefits and John Penrose: No contracts have been agreed with credits will gradually be phased out, with claims to tax either (a) private hire vehicle or (b) taxi companies credits ending in April 2014. since May 2010. Work continues with HMRC and local authorities to Departmental Work Experience understand the precise timing and detail of how this will work, but this approach will ensure that universal Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for credit is phased in safely from October 2013, minimising Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what work the risk to claimants. experience or traineeship schemes his Department Once agreed, the DWP will keep the approach under offers to minority groups. [92742] regular review as it recognises that this needs to be flexible enough the respond to national and local John Penrose: This Department provided two students circumstances as they change in the years before the with a two-week work experience placement in 2011, as migration to universal credit is concluded in 2017. part of the Whitehall Internship Scheme which provides 525W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 526W internships and work experience for people from under- Olympic Games 2012: Northern Ireland represented groups, including black, Asian and ethnic minority communities. We are aiming to offer the same Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for opportunities this year to students in the scheme. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent representations he has received on the recognition of Historic Buildings Northern Ireland in the name of the UK squad for the London 2012 Olympic Games; and what discussions he Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State has had with the British Olympic Association on that for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps the matter. [92190] Government has taken to encourage the public to visit historic buildings since May 2010. [91452] Hugh Robertson: There have been no recent representations. The issue was raised in a paper at the John Penrose: English Heritage promotes access and Sports Cabinet in February 2011, following which the visiting to over 400 historic sites—from castles to country Welsh Minister for Heritage, in his capacity as Chair of houses—using advertising, public relations, social media the meeting, wrote on behalf of the Sports Cabinet to and other forms of marketing communication. In 2010-11, ask the British Olympic Association (BOA) to consider English Heritage sites attracted 5.5 million visitors. Its changing the name and branding of Team GB to better significant thematic events programme, which includes reflect the whole of the UK. historic re-enactments amongst a broader range of activities, PhonepayPlus is an important part of attracting visitors. Additionally, its membership programme now involves around 800,000 individuals, with this number continuing to grow. Members Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for receive special publications including a handbook of all Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what information English Heritage sites, a members’ magazine called, his Department holds on how many companies were (a) (b) Heritage Today and a dedicated all year events programme. investigated by PhonepayPlus in 2008-09, 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11. [92450]

Historic Buildings: West Midlands Mr Vaizey: Information of this nature is not held by the Department. PhonepayPlus is independent from Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Government and delivers the day-to-day regulation of for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what steps the Premium Rate Services (PRS) on behalf of Ofcom, Government has taken to promote the preservation of under the terms of the Communications Act 2003. historic buildings in the West Midlands since May 2010. [91451] Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many John Penrose: In the West Midlands, English Heritage complaints his Department received about provided £1.35 million in 2010-11 and £1.39 million in PhonepayPlus in (a) 2008-09, (b) 2009-10 and (c) 2011-12 towards the preservation of historic buildings, 2010-11. [92451] monuments and landscapes. English Heritage has published a West Midlands Mr Vaizey: No complaints have been received. Ofcom Heritage at Risk Register each year since 2008: the most has responsibility and accountability for the regulation recent edition was released in October 2011. Throughout of premium rate services under the terms of the the year English Heritage works with a number of Communications Act 2003 and has designated partners to move heritage assets off the register. For the PhonepayPlus to deliver the day-to-day regulation through first time, in 2011 English Heritage published a list of their code of practice. priority sites—important heritage at risk sites in the RTE: Northern Ireland West Midlands where it will focus its resources to secure their future. Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for Since 2002 English Heritage has co-ordinated the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what progress he production of Heritage Counts West Midlands—the has made on the memorandum of understanding annual report on the state of the historic environment—on between the UK and Ireland on the availability of RTE behalf of the local historic environment sector. Since in Northern Ireland. [92543] May 2010, two editions of this annual publication have raised awareness about the work of a wide range of Mr Vaizey: Considerable progress has been made in public, voluntary and charitable organisations from facilitating the provision of the Irish television services, across the heritage sector. The 2011 West Midlands RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 in Northern Ireland since the region Heritage Counts signing, on 1 February 2010, of the Memorandum of http://hc.english-heritage.org.uk/content/pub/2011/hc-2011- Understanding between the Governments of UK and west-midlands.pdf Ireland aimed at providing a framework for co-operation reports that in the region there are 1,423 Scheduled on broadcasting issues in Northern Ireland. Monuments, 615 Grade I Listed Buildings, 2,144 Grade RTE and TG4 are currently in the process of forming II* Listed Buildings and 31,481 Grade II Listed Buildings. a not-for-profit joint venture that will be responsible for It also states that Heritage Lottery Fund made awards the procurement and installation of the transmission worth £12.8 million in 2010-11. facilities to deliver RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 in Northern Nearly 310,500 people visited English Heritage’s staffed Ireland. Both Governments have reached agreement on sites in the West Midlands in 2010-11. the technical standards to be used for transmitting these 527W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 528W services from transmitters in Northern Ireland, and the discussions with the Commission to understand and frequency plans for these transmitters have been agreed clarify how the proposals will impact on those directly internationally. affected by the CAP,including the proposals on ‘greening’. We are also in discussion with other Member States World War I with similar interests. Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for The Department holds regular formal and informal Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) what steps he discussions with representatives of the agricultural has taken to (a) publish a register of and (b) protect and other sectors on a whole range of CAP Reform war memorials and other monuments to those who issues. died in World War One; [91981] On 12 December 2011 we published a discussion (2) if he will include the protection, restoration and paper in England seeking views from farmers, environmental promotion of memorials and other monuments in his groups, rural communities, non-governmental organisations plans to mark the centenary of the outbreak of World and other interested parties on how these proposals War One. [91990] may impact on the different sectors affected by the CAP.Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are undertaking John Penrose: The United Kingdom Inventory of separate consultation activities. All these views will War Memorials, based at the Imperial War Museum, is inform the UK’s negotiating position. working to compile a record of all war memorials in the The discussion paper specifically asks for views on UK and to promote their appreciation, use and the ’greening’ proposal: preservation. Further details are available at: whether it would provide environmental benefits; whether it http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/ should be compulsory; The Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) is taking forward what land should be targeted in a farm’s ecological focus area; plans for a War Memorial Action Group (WMAG) to and consider the recording, understanding and protection whether organic farms should be exempt from the proposed and repair of war memorials. The membership of the requirement. WMAG will comprise DCMS, funders, heritage organisations and representatives of the local and voluntary sectors. Bees: Pesticides Around 1,200 war memorials are listed or scheduled and subject to the protections afforded by those designation regimes. In addition, English Heritage is working in Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for partnership with local authorities, the police, the Crown Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what research Prosecution Service and concerned local groups on the her Department is carrying out on the mechanisms by Heritage Crime Programme. This programme aims to which honey bees are exposed to agricultural protect vulnerable buildings and sites, including war pesticides; and if she will make a statement. [90659] memorials, from all threats, particularly metal theft and criminal damage. Richard Benyon: DEFRA has funded research on the English Heritage and the Wolfson Foundation, in potential impact of pesticides on honeybees, through association with the War Memorials Trust, have provided direct or indirect exposure, both from wide scale professional over £757,000 for the repair and conservation of free- use in agriculture and other sectors, and from home-garden standing war memorials in England. Furthermore, use. Information can be found on the science and research this Department’s Memorial Grant Scheme makes project database on DEFRA’s website. Research on the grants equivalent to the value added tax incurred by impact of chemicals on the learning capacity and charities and faith groups in erecting, maintaining or performance of honeybees is being carried out under repairing public memorials, including war memorials. the Insect Pollinators Initiative, which is a joint initiative HLF has also launched a new initiative to encourage between DEFRA, the Biotechnology and Biological applications for projects related to the centenaries of Sciences Research Council, the Natural Environment the First World War. Research Council, the Scottish Executive and the Wellcome Trust. The rigorous process for authorisation of pesticides ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS protects human health and the environment, including honey bees, providing products are used in accordance Agriculture: Subsidies with the authorisation. The pesticides regulator, the Health and Safety Executive’s Chemicals Regulation Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Directorate (CRD), is involved with the development of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions bee risk assessment methodology. The CRD will continue her Department has had with (a) the European to monitor research and developments in other EU Commission, (b) its counterparts in other EU member member states and elsewhere for relevance to the UK. states and (c) representatives of the agriculture sector Government scientists are involved in a number of on the future of agri-environment schemes linking major international initiatives, such as the European greening measures to payments; and if she will make a Commission’s plan for Honeybee Health, the Organisation statement. [91922] for Economic Co-operation and Development’s Pesticides Effects on Insect Pollinators initiative and the Society Mr Paice: The European Commission published of Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry’s work on proposals to reform the Common Agricultural Policy the pesticides risk assessment for pollinators (honeybees (CAP) on 12 October 2011. We are actively engaged in and non-Apis bees). 529W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 530W

Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control vaccine, but there are still significant technical, practical and legal issues to overcome before these vaccines will Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for be available It is not possible to say when they will be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many ready to be deployed in the field. confirmed breakdowns of bovine tuberculosis were recorded in the area covered by the random badger Bracken culling trials in the year following the last proactive cull of badgers; and how many such breakdowns were Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for recorded in the same area in the previous year. [87788] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance her Department has issued on the effective control of Mr Paice: During the lifetime of the randomised bracken in upland areas. [91791] badger culling trial, proactive culling of badgers led to a 23% reduction in bovine TB incidence in cattle herds Richard Benyon: Natural England, the Government’s in the culled areas when compared to survey-only areas. adviser on the natural environment, publishes guidance However, there was a 25% increase in incidence in the on the control of bracken, on DEFRA’s behalf, which surrounding 2km of un-culled ring adjacent to proactively is available on Natural England’s website and via its culled areas when compared to survey-only areas. Wildlife Licensing Unit. The published guidance offers More detailed results from this analysis can be found general advice on the control of bracken and also in the scientific paper by Christl Donnelly and colleagues contains specific reference to its control in upland areas. available at: The Government are concerned about the EU decision http://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(07)00071-9/ not to approve asulam, as this is an important method fulltext of controlling bracken in upland areas. The Health and Safety Executive’s Chemicals Regulation Directorate is Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for in discussion with the manufacturer regarding a new Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how cases of submission to support EU approval of asulam. bovine tuberculosis have been recorded in the last 12 months for which figures are available after a proactive cull of badgers; and how many such cases British Waterways were recorded in the previous 12 months. [87789] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of Mr Paice: Ongoing monitoring since the end of the State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what randomised badger culling trial has shown that the recent estimate she has made of the likely cost of (a) positive impacts on herd breakdowns within the culled repairs, (b) dredging and (c) pension liabilities in areas were maintained for at least six years after culling respect of British Waterways in the next 10 years; and if stopped and that the negative effect on herd breakdowns she will make a statement. [89479] in the surrounding areas had disappeared by 1.5 years after culling stopped. When cattle TB incidence figures Richard Benyon: Repairs are an operational matter from the period after culling are included, the benefits for British Waterways (BW), and will be a matter for the of proactive culling are greater than those observed Canal & River Trust (CRT) once the assets and functions during the trial itself. of BW in England and Wales are transferred to it. BW The latest scientific paper published on these results has a robust asset management process, enabling analyses cattle breakdown rates from the time of the prioritisation of repairs which have the greatest impact first cull to four years after the last cull. Over this on operations and health and safety.This asset management period, there was a 28.7% reduction in TB cattle herd process will continue when the assets transfer to CRT. incidence in proactively culled areas, Dredging is also an operational matter for BW and it and TB herd incidence within the 2km-wide ring around applies a risk-based prioritisation to its maintenance the culling areas was comparable with that in survey-only expenditure. The Government require BW to operate areas. Data collection in these areas is ongoing, and the and maintain waterways to standards that reflect use most recent update shows a reduction in TB incidence and prospects of use. BW estimates that the cost of in cattle due to culling persists up to six years after the clearing the current backlog of dredging would be last cull. approximately £40 million. BW has not set a timescale More details of this analysis can be found in the for dealing with the dredging backlog because it is scientific paper available at: subject to BW’s need to prioritise expenditure on its http://www.plosone.org/article/ major infrastructure assets and therefore it is not possible info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0009090 to confirm which dredging works will remain outstanding when the charity is vested. However, BW prioritises Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination dredging at locations that cause particular boating constraints. Once BW’s assets and functions are transferred Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for to CRT, it will be a matter for the Trust to prioritise Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent expenditure on the operation and maintenance of the assessment she has made of progress in developing a waterways. useable vaccine for bovine TB. [91782] With regard to pension liabilities, the last triennial valuation of the BW pension fund was carried out by Mr Paice: An injectable badger vaccine is available the Scheme Actuary on 31 March 2010. The actuarial for use on prescription. We are working hard to develop valuation of the British Waterways Pension Fund pension an injectable vaccine for cattle and an oral badger deficit was £65.6 million. No formal valuation has been 531W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 532W prepared since March 2010, although estimated updates Richard Benyon: The east of England received 71% of have been prepared by the Scheme Actuary for the the normal long term average rainfall for 2011, making pension fund Trustees. it the driest year since 1921. The rainfall we have had so The Government are negotiating a long term funding far in January should help to start easing the situation agreement with the Trustees of CRT. Those negotiations for Essex and other areas in the east of England in the are considering a range of issues which could impact on short-term to enable farmers to begin refilling their funding to maintain the canal network, including the reservoirs. costs of repairs and maintenance and future liabilities The Environment Agency’s Drought Prospects report arising from CRT’s pension arrangements. was published in December and is currently being updated. The outcome of the negotiations will be announced It has highlighted that even with average rainfall over before the Government lay the necessary order under the winter and spring, there is unlikely to be a full the Public Bodies Act to transfer British Waterways’ recovery from drought conditions during 2012, and this functions to CRT. may cause significant agricultural impacts. There is a high possibility that without above average rainfall there Dairy Farming will be voluntary and formal abstraction restrictions for Essex rivers in late spring/summer. Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Echinococcus Multilocularis discussions she has had with representatives of the dairy industry on her Department’s support for the Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for industry. [91978] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the EU derogation for echinococcus multilocularis still applies Mr Paice: In recent months I have met with to the UK; and what measures are in place to prevent representatives of dairy farmers, processors and retailers dogs from bringing this infection into the UK. [92030] on a number of occasions. On 23 November, I chaired the latest meeting of the Dairy Supply Chain Forum Mr Paice: The UK has successfully argued to maintain which includes key people from the whole supply chain. its controls against the tapeworm Echinococcus This is an important vehicle for encouraging progress multilocularis. From 1 January 2012 import controls with initiatives such as Dairy 2020 (considering how the relating to this tapeworm have been implemented under industry can work together to secure a sustainable EU Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) No. 1152/ future), the Dairy Roadmap (managing environmental 2011. This regulation lays down the tapeworm import impacts), and a voluntary code of contractual best conditions which pet dogs must comply with when practice. being moved into the UK from other countries. Under these rules, all dogs must be treated by a vet against Departmental Renewable Energy tapeworm not less than 24 hours and not more than 120 hours (1-5 days) before its scheduled arrival time Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for in the UK. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her The treatment window of 1-5 days ensures that the Department is on target to achieve its commitment to risk of this tapeworm entering the UK from pets remains generating 15 per cent. of energy from renewable low. The slightly wider treatment window under the new sources by 2020; and what recent assessment she has rules balances the need to manage risks in a proportionate made of progress towards meeting this commitment. way, while helping to increase compliance thereby reducing [92680] the risk of untreated animals entering the UK. Pet dogs moving to the UK from Ireland, Malta and Gregory Barker: I have been asked to reply on behalf Finland do not have to meet the tapeworm import of the Department of Energy and Climate Change. conditions as those countries have submitted evidence In December 2011 we submitted our first Progress to the EU Commission to confirm they, like the UK, Report to the European Commission, as required under are tapeworm free. the Renewable Energy Directive. This shows that at the Further information for pet owners on the revised pet end of 2010 (the latest data available) 3.3% of our travel scheme rules is available on the DEFRA website. energy came from renewable sources, and that we are currently on track to meet our first interim target of 4% over 2011-12. The Progress Report can be downloaded Eggs: EU Law from our website at: http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/ Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for renewable_ener/renewable_ener.aspx Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to how many companies she has written on ensuring that eggs are Droughts: East of England sourced from production systems which comply with EU Council Directive 1999/74/EC; and how many such Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for companies have not responded. [91766] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of the (a) risk of drought and (b) recent Mr Paice: In the autumn of last year I wrote to the dry weather conditions in (i) Essex and (ii) the east of Food and Drink Federation and the British Hospitality England; and what assessment she has made of the Association to ask them whether their members could effect of such weather conditions on the region’s follow the British Retail Consortium’s lead and sign up farmers and agricultural sector. [91921] to a voluntary approach to not source conventional 533W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 534W caged eggs after 1 January 2012, when the ban on Fisheries keeping laying hens in conventional cages came into force. Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for In addition, I also wrote to Compass who hold a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her number of Government contracts for catering, and Department has taken to ensure the illegal fishing DEFRA officials wrote to the major processors to ask allegations made against the Spanish Vidal family the same question. The list of companies who have network in October 2011 are investigated by the made this voluntary pledge is published on the DEFRA European Commission and the Spanish Government. website. [91856]

Environment Protection Richard Benyon: Illegal, unreported and unregulated (IUU) fishing remains a major threat to the world’s fish stocks, its marine biodiversity and the Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for livelihoods and security of coastal communities. I have Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent not intervened in this matter, but would certainly expect progress she has made on the implementation of the the Commission to establish the facts behind the allegations measures contained in the Natural Environment White as a matter of urgency, and to take swift action should Paper. [91982] wrongdoing be found to have occurred. The new EU Control Regulation, 1224/2009, makes clear that the Richard Benyon: The Natural Environment White payment of funds to member states is conditional upon Paper includes 92 commitments for action. Seven months respect by the member states of their obligation to after publication, seven commitments are complete and ensure compliance with and enforcement of the rules of good progress has been made including: awarding Local the common fisheries policy. It also provides the Nature Partnership capacity building funding; selecting Commission with the necessary powers to suspend or 20 Nature Improvement Area applications to go to the cancel financial assistance where the effectiveness of the second stage of the competition; and launching both measures being financed is, or is likely to be, affected by the Ecosystem Markets Task Force and the Green non-compliance with those rules. Infrastructure Partnership. Flood Control: Coastal Areas Environment Protection: Finance Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what legislative Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which 10 proposals she is considering to reduce levels of categories of climate change mitigation measures bureaucracy affecting landowners undertaking repairs received the highest level of Government funding in to sea walls. [92033] each year since 2005; and how much funding was allocated in each case. [91636] Richard Benyon: Landowners or others wishing to undertake repairs to sea walls or other flood defences Richard Benyon: DEFRA’s Adapting to Climate Change may need to seek a flood defence consent before doing programme works across Government Departments to so. We are considering integrating flood defence consents provide evidence, analysis and tools to advise, support into the Environmental Permitting framework to reduce and challenge policy development, delivery and burdens on applicants, including landowners, and allow prioritisation. regulators to target resources at higher risk activities. DEFRA’s adaptation-related measures span many Flood Risk Management policy areas, from farming and the food sector to flood management. The policy area will attribute spending to adaptive measures from its wider budget; however, this Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for level of information is not held centrally. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 19 December 2011, DEFRA’s accounts are available on its website: Official Report, columns 140-1WS, on flood risk (1) DEFRA annual report and accounts, 2010-11: management, what meetings (a) have taken place since http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/about/reports/ 19 December 2011 and (b) are planned between her (2) DEFRA departmental reports for previous years: Department and HM Treasury to discuss progress on ensuring universal availability of flood insurance from http://archive.defra.gov.uk/corporate/about/reports/ annual.htm July 2013. [92167] As impacts of climate change affect all areas of life, Richard Benyon: DEFRA and HM Treasury have Government Departments build the impacts of a changing had regular meetings regarding the future of flood climate in to what they do and deliver a range of insurance beyond June 2013, which is when the current adaptation measures into their own policies and agreement with insurers expires. We will continue to programmes. meet regularly as we consider options over the winter Government Departments prepare their own annual months, with the aim of making further announcements accounts that contain funding details. Information on in the spring. As was the case with previous Administrations, each Department’s Adaption Plan can be found under it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of “departmental adaptation plans” in the “government” all such meetings. The Government remain committed section of the Defra website. to making sure flood insurance remains widely available. 535W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 536W

Food Mr Paice: The Welsh Government have recently announced their intention to form a single environmental Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for body. This is a matter for the Welsh, but we will be Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment looking to ensure that there is an orderly transfer of she has made of the economic contribution of the food work, and that the Welsh Government fund all costs and drink industry; and what steps she is taking to associated with the change, the details of which have support the sector. [91912] still to be determined. It will be important that future working arrangements ensure close working on biosecurity Mr Paice: The farming, food and drink sector plays a risks and other issues of common interest. The Independent significant part in our economy. It is worth nearly Panel on Forestry is currently reviewing forestry policy £85 billion to the UK economy and employs 3.5 million in England, including the role of the Forestry Commission people. Comparing 2010 with 2009 all sectors of the in delivering this. The Government will consider its food chain have seen year on year increases in productivity, advice before reaching any conclusions on the operation resulting in a 0.8% rise in total factor productivity of of Forestry Commission GB. the food chain. Livestock: Disease Control A sustainable food and farming industry is at the forefront of DEFRA’s aims. We are working to help Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for increase the competitiveness and resilience of farms, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy fisheries and the whole food chain to ensure a secure, is on measures to control the spread of plasmid borne environmentally sustainable and healthy supply of food, antibiotic resistance in food producing animals. [91762] for example through the green food project and the recent growth review. The Government is committed to Mr Paice: The Government have long promoted the working closely with industry stakeholders to boost responsible use of all veterinary medicines and works exports, promote innovation and encourage further growth, closely with the Responsible Use of Medicines in particularly among SMEs through the Agri-food and Agriculture (RUMA) Alliance and the British Veterinary Drink Exports Forum and the Green Food Project Association. Steering Group. Across the food chain we all have a role Plasmid borne antibiotic resistance is not a new in promoting efficiency and competitiveness, sharing phenomenon and has been described for many years. research and knowledge to promote best practice, and The measures appropriate for the control of plasmid eliminating waste. borne antibiotic resistance include those generally applied The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and for the control of all types of antibiotic resistance. Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), recently attended the launch Snares of the Food and Drink Federation’s 20/20 Vision for Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for growth of the industry and DEFRA will be working Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans with them to help deliver the ambition. to publish the report on the extent of use and We have recently published an action plan to promote humaneness of snares in England and Wales. [92259] exports and we will be holding an Innovation for Growth summit in March to raise awareness of the resources for Mr Paice: We hope to publish the report in February innovation. We will also be holding a competition aimed 2012. at helping SMEs carry out pilots or feasibility studies for their innovative ideas. Sustainable Development: Business Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Forestry Commission Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy is on the introduction of mandatory sustainability Glyn Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for reporting for companies. [89555] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether she plans to dissolve the Forestry Commission of Great Mr Paice: For quoted companies, the Companies Britain after the removal of Forestry Commission Act 2006 already requires that the business review, Wales; and whether she has any plans to seek to which is part of a company’s annual report, must reclaim any of the costs of any such dissolution from include information about environmental matters (including the Welsh Government; [91771] the impact of the organisation’s business on the (2) what steps she plans to take to maintain links environment). This is provided to the extent necessary with Forestry Commission Wales to ensure a unified to give an understanding of the development, performance approach to biosecurity in the UK after its removal or position of the firm’s business. from the Forestry Commission of Great Britain; As stated in the Natural Environment White Paper, [91772] we will publish new guidance detailing how companies should measure and report their corporate environmental (3) what plans she has for future funding of the impacts this year. shared services provided by the Forestry Commission of Great Britain after the removal of Forestry Territorial Waters Commission Wales; [91773] (4) whether the Forestry Commission of Great Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Britain will incur any costs as a result of the removal of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she last Forestry Commission Wales; and what estimate she has discussed with her EU counterparts UK control over made of the level of any such costs. [91774] its 12-nautical mile territorial waters. [91794] 537W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 538W

Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister, I have Mr Paice: DEFRA does not provide financial assistance recently had discussions on fisheries management to either individuals or farmers to meet the cost of arrangements concerning a reformed common fisheries veterinary fees. policy (CFP) at November Council, and in the course of other meetings in Brussels during December, with Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for the European Commission, members of the UK and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what European Parliaments, and ministerial colleagues of estimate she has made of the average veterinary fee for other member states. (a) individuals and (b) farms in each of the last five As negotiations continue, I will press our case for years; and if she will make a statement; [92150] reform, particularly around the decentralisation of the (2) what information her Department holds on CFP, thus allowing member states to agree the measures average veterinary costs to farms in each year since appropriate for the fisheries they share and enabling 1997 by type of farm. [92219] them to manage marine resources more effectively through better integration of fisheries management with other Mr Paice: No such records are held by DEFRA and marine policies. to research and obtain this detailed information would incur a disproportionate cost. There is no statutory Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for control on veterinary fees and as such it is not for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Government to intervene in this matter. It is for individual contribution by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of customers to decide whichever veterinary practice most State for Natural Environment and Fisheries of 14 July suits their needs. 2011, Official Report, columns 472-81, what progress her Department has made on negotiations for reform of the Common Fisheries Policy to restore UK control Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent over its 12 nautical mile territorial waters. [91845] representations she has received on veterinary costs; Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister I am what response she gave to each such representation; continuing to seek, through negotiations on the reform and if she will make a statement. [92220] of the Common Fisheries Policy, a simplified and decentralised decision-making framework. As part of Mr Paice: DEFRA receives a wide range of this I am pressing for clear arrangements providing for representations on veterinary and other issues which, member states to take non-discriminatory measures for where appropriate, we seek to take account of in formulating the conservation and management of fish stocks and to policies. It is not the Government’s practice to provide minimise the effect of fishing on the conservation of details of such representations unless they form part of marine ecosystems within their 12 mile limits. Such a formal consultation exercise. measures should apply to all vessels fishing within that zone, no matter what member state they are from. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Trees contribution her Department is making to implementation of the Compact with the voluntary Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for sector; and if she will make a statement. [92285] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many tree planting hectares have been (a) planted and (b) cut Richard Benyon: Civil society organisations make a down by the Forestry Commission in the last five years. vital contribution to the delivery of many of DEFRA’s [92350] objectives and commitments, and our work with the sector is underpinned by the principles set out in the Mr Paice: In the last five years (2006-07 to 2010-11) Compact. These principles have been disseminated to 400 hectares of new woodland were planted and 9,800 all staff in core-DEFRA who are likely to have contact hectares were restocked by planting or natural regeneration with representatives of civil society. on the public forest estate in England by the Forestry Commission. Following the publication of DEFRA’s refreshed Business Plan later this year, we will take steps to Information on felling areas which is not held centrally improve our understanding of how effectively DEFRA could be provided only at disproportionate cost; however, is complying with Compact principles, and to ensure unless designated for an alternative land use, restocking that the Compact is systematically embedded in the way after clear felling is normally carried out within two to DEFRA works with civil society. three planting seasons. The entire public forest estate has been independently Waste: Landfill certified for sustainable forest management, which means that the clear felling and restocking practices have been independently audited. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many Veterinary Medicine: Fees and Charges tonnes of UK waste have been transported to landfill sites abroad since May 2010. [91974] Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her Richard Benyon: Under the UK Plan for Shipments Department provides financial assistance to assist (a) of Waste, exports of waste for disposal, which includes individuals and (b) farms with meeting the cost of landfill, are prohibited with very few exceptions. No veterinary fees; and if she will make a statement. [92147] exports for landfill are recorded. 539W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 540W

Water Abstraction Also the Environment Agency is encouraging farmers to come forward early if they have concerns for their Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for water needs and will advise if more water is available. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Where licence changes would affect others or involve discussions have taken place between her Department, significant risks to the environment, appropriate detail the Environment Agency and farmers on water is required, but assistance is being provided to help with abstraction. [92009] such urgent cases. Water: Meters Richard Benyon: DEFRA and the Environment Agency officials met agriculture representatives on 19 December Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 to consider the latest position on the ongoing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her drought conditions. They discussed the latest Drought Department has estimated the average length of time Prospects report, and how low groundwater and river for which water meters remain accurate. [92272] flows are limiting normal winter abstraction in drought- affected areas. The Environment Agency advised that it Richard Benyon: Ofwat estimates that standard water was responding to help licence holders revise their meters last for approximately 15 years. Some ″smart″, licences where water was available for abstraction. meters can be activated (read) by customers pushing a The impact of these conditions on farming was outlined button and this can shorten the battery life. by the industry representatives and the options available Weedkillers to farmers were discussed. DEFRA and the Environment Agency also had dialogue Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for with the National Farmers Union and Country Land Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what and Business Association on water abstraction issues in guidance she plans to issue to landowners on effective relationship to development of the Water White Paper: replacement selective herbicides in advance of the Water for Life. prohibition of asulam; [91806] (2) what steps she can take to extend the use of Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for asulam beyond 2012. [91846] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has any plans to propose changes to the regulations Richard Benyon: The EU prohibition on the use of relating to water abstraction in response to the asulam comes into operation at the end of 2012. Beyond long-term effects of dry weather and drought this date it may be possible for the UK Government to conditions on farmers. [92010] issue emergency authorisations for the use of asulam if there are no alternative means of control available. The Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency is reviewing Chemicals Regulation Directorate has provided guidance its regulatory position to identify any changes that it to the Bracken Control Group, which is co-ordinating can make, without detriment to other abstractors or the for interested parties on an application for an emergency environment, to assist farmers during the ongoing dry authorisation for asulam for its key use for bracken weather. control. DEFRA met with representatives of the agricultural I understand that a current approval holder for asulam community on 19 December 2011, and the Environment intends to make a further submission to the European Agency is working closely with the farmers affected by Commission seeking approval of the substance. Since drought to help them access water where it is available, this submission has to be supported by additional scientific and where appropriate, to change abstraction licences. studies, a new submission is unlikely to be made soon. The Water White Paper, ‘Water for Life’, has announced There are currently no selective herbicides approved the Government’s intention to reform the abstraction for use in the UK that could replace asulam for bracken licensing regime over the longer term. The new regime control. I understand that some research has been conducted will be designed to support adaptation to climate change on several sulphonyl urea herbicides, but no applications by abstractors, including farmers. for approval have yet been made. In some situations, non-selective herbicides or mechanical control may be appropriate ways to tackle bracken. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she has to simplify the process of application from farmers to vary (a) water abstraction licences and (b) HEALTH arrangements for water abstraction. [92011] Bowel Cancer: Screening Richard Benyon: We will be looking at changes to Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for water abstraction licences and arrangements for water Health how many bowl cancer screenings have been abstraction while developing and implementing a reformed carried out in each of the last three years. [92345] abstraction regime. This was outlined in the recently published Water White Paper: Water for Life. Paul Burstow: The number of adequate screening The Environment Agency is committed to assisting tests for bowel cancer carried out in England as part of farmers with abstraction licence variations brought on the NHS bowel cancer screening programme in each of by the impacts of the current drought. Where this is the last three years can be found in the following table. appropriate, it will ensure the process is simplified to An adequate screening test is one that produces a achieve prompt revisions for applicants. definitive result. 541W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 542W

Departmental Job Satisfaction Number of adequate tests

2008 1,033,429 Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State 2009 1,344,127 for Health what assessment he has made of trends in 2010 1,868,658 staff responses on organisational objectives and purpose in his Department’s Civil Service People Survey, October 2011; and if he will make a statement. Cancer: Medical Treatments [92193]

Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Simon Burns: The results of the Department’s what estimate his Department has made of the average people survey indicate that employee engagement has cost to the public purse of a patient’s cancer treatment. remained broadly level in a year of change. While [92936] response rates to questions related to ’organisational objectives and purpose’ are down four percentage points Paul Burstow: We have made no estimate of the on last year, 68% of staff responded positively to these average cost to the public purse of the treatment a questions. The Department is taking action based on cancer patient receives. Cancer treatments can vary the survey findings with a view to making improvements greatly from patient to patient, both in terms of the this year. types of treatment they receive and the duration of Depressive Illnesses: Medical Treatments those treatments. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Care Homes: Standards for Health what recent steps his Department has taken to improve treatment for people with depression. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State [91884] for Health what steps the Government has taken to improve standards in residential care homes since May Paul Burstow: The Government committed in their 2010. [91533] mental health strategy, ‘No Health Without Mental Health’, a copy of which has already been placed in the Paul Burstow: Since October 2010, all providers of Library, to investing around £400 million in completing regulated activities, including care homes, have had to the roll-out of the Improving Access to Psychological register with the Care Quality Commission (CQC) and Therapies programme over the spending review period. meet 16 registration requirements governing essential This will ensure that adults with depression and anxiety levels of safety and quality. The CQC has a wide range in all parts of England have access to a choice of of independent enforcement powers that it can use if it psychological therapies. considers providers are not meeting the requirements. Diabetes: Young People The CQC is presently conducting the Dignity and Nutrition Inspection programme. Between March and Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State June 2011, the CQC inspected care of older people on for Health what recent steps the Government has taken 100 national health service wards, focussing on dignity to assist young people with diabetes. [91887] and nutrition. Between April and June this year, the CQC will inspect a further 50 hospitals. In addition, the Paul Burstow: The majority of children and young care of older people in approximately 500 care homes people with diabetes have type 1 diabetes. will be inspected. We are introducing a mandatory best practice tariff The Department has funded a £100,000 project in the (BPT) for paediatric diabetes from April 2012, the aim residential care sector to improve and address medication of which is to enable access to consistent high quality issues within care homes. The work is being led by the management of diabetes. The new BFT is an annual National Care Forum, working as part of a wider payment that covers outpatient care from the date of cross-sector partnership, which includes the Royal Colleges discharge from hospital after the initial diagnosis of and other professional leadership organisations. diabetes is made, until the young person is transferred The Department is also funding a project which is to adult services at the age of 19. The components of managed through the Social Care Institute for Excellence, the BPT have been developed and agreed with clinicians under which Mental Capacity Act provider development and NHS Diabetes. managers are being used to provide advice on mental The National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence capacity issues across a network of care providers, (NICE) have published guidelines on the diagnosis and including care homes. management of type 1 diabetes in children and young Around two thirds of residents in care homes have people. NHS Diabetes have also published a commissioning some form of dementia. ’Living well with dementia in guide for diabetes services for children and young people. care homes’ was identified as one of the Government’s The guide includes an intervention map detailing all of four key priorities for improving dementia care in our the elements needed for the service as well as a contracting revised implementation plan, “Quality Outcomes for framework and service specification template. The guide People with Dementia: Building on the work of the is available at: National Dementia Strategy (2010)”. The plan sets out www.diabetes.nhs.uk/document.php?o=43 the Government’s commitment to putting patients and In 2009, NHS Diabetes also initiated the national the public first and improving health and social care Children and Young People Network, to address outcomes for people with dementia and their carers. unwarranted variation in services for this group, and to 543W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 544W improve the care and treatment they receive. The national No time frame has been set by the Department network constitutes 12 clinical champions roughly between responding to a request and the information representing the strategic health authority regions across being made available on its website. However, officials England, led, funded and coordinated by NHS Diabetes. will aim to undertake this task as quickly as possible. Food: Labelling Health Services: Detention Centres Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what plans he has to require the labelling of Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for foods to encourage people to eat a healthier diet; Health whether it is his intention that the NHS [92536] Commissioning Board will have responsibility for (2) whether he plans to consider the raw and cooked commissioning healthcare in immigration removal properties of foods when considering proposals for centres from April 2013. [92094] food labelling. [92582] Paul Burstow: The Department will assume policy Anne Milton: Labelling rules are set at European responsibility for immigration removal centre (IRC) Union level and a new EU Food Information Regulation healthcare commissioning policy from the United Kingdom came into force on 13 December 2011. Border Agency (UKBA) from 1 April 2012. The regulation requires the provision of certain nutrition UKBA budgetary provision and commissioning information (normally on the back of the packaging). It responsibility for healthcare in IRCs will be transferred specifies that the nutrient information provided should to the Department during 2012-13 and, subject to be that of the food ’as sold’ in its raw state but allows legislation, these responsibilities will be fully transferred such information to be based on food after it has been to the National Health Service Commissioning Board prepared/cooked (“as consumed”) instead, where this is by April 2014. useful to consumers, and provided that the preparation instructions are clearly given. Health Services: Learning Disabled To supplement this information, the regulation also allows the voluntary repetition of the nutrients of particular Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State concern to public health—energy, fat, saturated fat, salt for Health what steps his Department is taking to and sugar—in a per portion format on the front of the provide training for NHS medical staff to improve pack. The Government will shortly be consulting on services for patients with learning disabilities. [91883] how they can work with businesses to bring more consistency to the format of this information and to Paul Burstow: The content and standard of health increase its use across more food products. care training is the responsibility of the General Medical Freedom of Information Council, the independent regulatory body for medical training in the United Kingdom. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for However, the Department is currently undertaking a Health whether his Department publishes on its review of learning disabilities nursing in collaboration website its response to each request it receives under with the other devolved Administrations. The review the Freedom of Information Act 2000; whether the has received evidence regarding the pre- and post- response is published in the same part of its website on registration training of learning disabilities nurses. The each occasion; and what the average time taken is report is due to be launched later this year. between responding to a request and the information being made available on the website. [92121] Health Services: North East Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not publish all replies to its freedom of information (FOI) requests Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State on its website. for Health what assessment he has made of model governance arrangements for pathfinder However, quarterly logs of the Department’s FOI commissioning groups in the North East; and if he will releases are published, along with some FOI answers make a statement. [92187] where a policy team has chosen to provide this further detail. Mr Simon Burns: The Department supported NHS These are all available in the same area of the North East in its work with local emerging clinical Department’s website at: commissioning groups (CCGs) to develop “Interim www.transparency.dh.gov.uk/category/foi/foi-releases/ Governance Arrangements for Pathfinder CCGs”. This In addition, the Department, has a publication scheme document has been used to support local emerging to provide information that is of wide public interest. CCGs to put in place robust governance arrangements This is available at: that would enable them to operate with delegated authority www.dh.gov.uk/en/FreedomOfInformation/ from primary care trust boards and build experience of Freedomofinformationpublicationschemefeedback/ commissioning. Classesofinformation/DH_092400 The Department does not routinely collate the average Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State time taken between responding to a request and the for Health what public engagement events were held by information being made available on its website. To each pathfinder commissioning group in the North establish this would incur disproportionate cost. East in each month since January 2011. [92188] 545W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 546W

Mr Simon Burns: Information on public engagement Nutrition: Health Education events held by emerging clinical commissioning groups is not centrally held. Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what assessment has been made of the Hypopituitarism effectiveness of his Department’s provision of information on maintaining a healthy weight through Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health healthy eating and exercise; [92520] what recent assessment he has made of the (a) causes (2) what assessment has been made of the and (b) effects of post-traumatic hypopituitarism. effectiveness of Government initiatives in changing [92776] people’s behaviour in respect of food. [92583]

Paul Burstow: We have made no recent assessment of Anne Milton: We are committed to building the evidence the causes, and effects, of post-traumatic hypopituitarism. base on effective interventions to support people in improving their health, including in respect of diet, exercise and maintaining a healthy weight. Evaluation In Vitro Fertilisation of Government initiatives forms a key part of this. For example, Change4Life, which aims to inspire a social Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for movement to prevent people becoming overweight and. Health what steps he is taking to encourage those has a built-in programme of evaluation to monitor its primary care trusts who have suspended IVF funding effectiveness. to review their decision; and if he will make a Organs: Donors statement. [92958]

Anne Milton: Primary care trusts are fully aware of Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for their statutory commissioning responsibilities and the Health if he will establish a pilot scheme for organ need to base commissioning decisions on clinical evidence donation for those with rare blood types to enable and discussions with local general practitioner organ donations to be used in exceptional commissioners, secondary care clinicians and providers. circumstances without the need for consent from a The national health service deputy chief executive, David family member if there is no record of opting out of Flory, wrote to primary care trust commissioners last organ donation. [92342] year to highlight to those involved in commissioning fertility services the importance of having regard to the Anne Milton: The national organ allocation scheme, National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence administered by NHS Blood and Transplant, aims to fertility guidelines, including the recommendation that improve outcomes, ensure equity of access to up to three cycles of in vitro fertilisation are offered to transplantation and to maximise the number of transplants eligible couples where the woman is aged between 23 performed. The allocation scheme is based very strongly and 39. on getting the best tissue match for the recipient. The scheme was substantially revised in April 2006 and Additionally, we support Infertility Network UK, a further modified in 2010, and is constantly reviewed to leading patient support organisation, to develop and provide the best outcomes for all patients. The Human promote standardised access criteria and to work in Tissue Act 2004 and the Human Tissue (Scotland) partnership with commissioners to encourage good practice Act 2006 each requires consent or authorisation for all in the provision of fertility services. organ donations either by the deceased while alive or by the family after his or her death. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many primary care trusts have decommissioned Pain IVF services in each of the last two years. [92463] Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for Anne Milton: The information is not held centrally. Health (1) how many people in the current personal health budget pilot have chronic pain as either (a) their primary condition or (b) as a consequence of the NHS: Contracts long-term condition for which they are receiving a personal health budget; [92546] Frank Dobson: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what steps he is taking to ensure that people with Health whether NHS bodies commissioning services chronic pain will be able to access personal health from any qualified provider will be required to conduct budgets in the absence of a quality outcomes due diligence of the financial and commercial framework for chronic pain. [92548] background of such providers before placing contracts. [91895] Paul Burstow: Personal health budgets offer patients more control and choice over how their outcomes are Mr Simon Burns: Under any qualified provider, all met. They are currently being piloted across England. providers will have to complete successfully the rigorous Over 2,700 people have been recruited into, an independent qualification process before signing the NHS standard evaluation programme. Around half of them will have contract and prior to delivering services. Commissioners personal health budgets; the remainder are in a control will carry out checks on the financial and commercial group. Although it is likely that many people with standing of potential providers as part of the qualification chronic pain (either as a primary condition or as a process. consequence of a long-term condition) are involved in 547W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 548W the pilot, we do not yet know how many, or to what carers. This is why the Government recognise the vital extent their needs are being supported through a personal contribution that carers of all ages make to society, and health budget. has taken action to support them. However, the evaluation team will gather information We set out our priorities in ‘Recognised, valued and and report on the health needs that people have, including supported, next steps for the Carers Strategy’, a copy of chronic pain. The final evaluation report is due in which had already been placed in the Library, in November October 2012. 2010 and are providing additional funding of £400 million It is the Government’s longer term aim to introduce a to the national health service between 2011 and 2015 right to a personal health budget for people who would for carers’ breaks. benefit from them, subject to the results of the evaluation The Government also made available £19 million of the pilot programme. This could include people with during 2010-11 to support service development in the chronic pain. A number of anecdotal case studies from palliative care sector. A number of the funded projects the pilot programme include people using personal focused on issues relating to parents and carers. health budgets to improve their pain control. These include people using their budgets to access services Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education such as massage, hydrotherapy, or acupuncture. Palliative Care Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will take steps to ensure increased funding for Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State relationship advice and sexual health services for for Health what recent steps his Department has taken teenagers. [92319] to improve the provision of palliative care services. [91885] Anne Milton: Funding for local services is a matter for individual primary care trusts (PCTs), taking into Paul Burstow: The Government have confirmed their account the needs of the local population. The amount commitment to improving quality and choice in palliative spent by PCTs on sexual health services is not prescribed and end of life care in the White Paper ‘Equity and by the Department. excellence: Liberating the NHS’. The Department’s end Improving sexual health by reducing unintended of life care strategy provides a blueprint for improving pregnancies and sexually transmitted infections is very these services for adults and we are pressing on with its important, particularly for young people. “Improving implementation. outcomes and supporting transparency: A public health, We are making progress in implementing the strategy. outcomes framework for England 2013-16”, which was This includes: providing support for staff training and published on 23 January 2012 includes indicators for development in end of life care; completing pilots of both under-18 conceptions and Chlamydia diagnoses in locality registers (now called Electronic Palliative Care 15 to 24-year-olds. A copy has already been placed in Co-ordination Systems), which will allow all local services the Library. The Department will publish a new sexual to co-ordinate care more effectively; introducing a national health policy document in the spring. survey of the bereaved, to help us understand the experience for patients and carers; and establishing a national Pregnancy: Drugs coalition of organisations, Dying Matters, to raise public awareness of issues around death, dying and bereavement. Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The ‘End of Life Care Strategy Third Annual Report’, what representations he has received on the which sets out progress in implementing the strategy, prescription of diethylstilboestrol to pregnant women; was published in September 2011. A copy has been and if he will take steps to identify and locate (a) placed in the Library and is available on the Department women who were prescribed diethylstilboestrol and (b) website at: the children of such women. [92145] www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_130239 Mr Simon Burns: Diethylstilboestrol (DES) is an The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence oestrogenic hormone formerly used in the treatment of has published a Quality Standard on end of life care for threatened miscarriage. In 2002, the Department asked adults. the Advisory Committee for Cervical Screening to consider In. addition, we are undertaking work to develop a the need for, and the potential effectiveness of, a publicity fairer funding system for palliative care, following on campaign to identify DES-exposed women and their from the report of the independent Palliative Care children. The Committee advised that proactive Funding Review. campaigning would not help to identify women who are currently unaware of their DES exposure status and Palliative Care: Children would serve only to create anxiety, as the vast majority of women in the United Kingdom have never been Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State exposed to DES. for Health what support his Department provides to We have received a number of representations on this parents of children with terminal illnesses. [91886] matter since 2002. These include 18 parliamentary questions and letters from hon. Members, 14 from members of Anne Milton: Many children and young people with the public and six applications under the Freedom of terminal illnesses or life-limiting conditions will have Information Act. These included questions relating to complex needs over a number of years and therefore the number of women exposed to DES in utero, screening require specific and intensive support from parents and for cancer in those who had been exposed, efforts made 549W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 550W to trace those who had been exposed, effects in male NICE is an independent body and it would not be offspring who had been exposed, and further research appropriate for Ministers to. intervene in an ongoing relating to possible risks. technology appraisal. In the absence of final NICE guidance on a drug, it is Skin Cancer for local primary care trusts (PCTs) to make funding decisions based on an assessment of the available evidence. Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Where a cancer drug is not routinely funded by a PCT, Health how many cases of melanoma skin cancer there patients may be able to access the drug through the have been in the last three years; and what the cost to Cancer Drugs Fund. the public purse was of treatment of this kind of cancer in that period. [92339] Smoking: Drugs

Paul Burstow: The number of cases of melanoma in Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for England and the estimated national health service Health whether he has had any discussions with the expenditure on the treatment and management of skin (a) British Medical Association and (b) others on cancer for the latest three-year period for which comparable the effect on health of the Chempix form of the data could be provided can be found in the following anti-smoking drug varenicitine. [92341] table. The expenditure figures include both non-melanoma Mr Simon Burns: Neither the Secretary of State for and malignant melanoma as it is not possible to break Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South this figure down to identify expenditure on a particular Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), nor his officials have type of skin cancer. It is also not currently possible to had discussions with the British Medical Association estimate expenditure on chemotherapy and radiotherapy about the anti-smoking drug varenicline (brand name by cancer type. Expenditure on these treatments is Champix). therefore included within the ‘Cancers and Tumours— The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Other’ category. Agency (MHRA), an executive agency of the Department, In addition, expenditure on some service areas or is responsible for ensuring that all medicines available in activities is excluded if it is not possible to make a the United Kingdom are effective and are acceptably reasonable estimation of expenditure by specific disease safe. The MHRA has actively participated, along with area. For this reason expenditure on general practitioner other European Union member states, in Europe-wide services, diagnostics and some outpatient services are discussions of the benefits and risks of treatment with excluded from estimates of expenditure on cancers and varenicline. These discussions have concluded that the tumours. benefits of stopping smoking using varenicline outweigh Expenditure figures are from estimated England level the known side-effects. The health benefits of stopping programme budgeting data, which are calculated using smoking are well recognised. primary, care trust and strategic health authority The MHRA continues to monitor closely the safety programme budgeting returns and Department resource of varenicline. Emerging data on the benefits and risks accounts data. Figures also include an estimation of of varenicline are carefully evaluated as they become special health authority expenditure. available and updated prescribing guidance is issued as appropriate. MHRA has communicated information Cancers and Cancers and on the safety profile of varenicline to health care Gases of tumours—skin2 tumours—other3 melanoma1 (£ million) (£ billion) professionals in the UK via its monthly bulletin ’Drug Safety Update’. The target audience for this publication 2007-08 8,809 110 2.32 includes doctors (who are the main membership of the 2008-09 9,695 100 2.39 British Medical Association). 2009-10 9,771 110 2.75 1 Office of National Statistics Social Services 2 Programme budgeting data 3 Programme budgeting data Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Skin Cancer: Drugs Health what estimate his Department has made of the difference between the number of people eligible for Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for social care support in England and those receiving Health if he will make available the skin cancer formal support from public or private sector agencies. treatment drug ipilimumab in NHS facilities. [92340] [92393]

Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and Paul Burstow: The Department has not made estimates Clinical Excellence (NICE) is currently appraising of the difference between the number of people eligible ipilimumab (Yervoy) for the treatment of previously for social care support in England and those receiving treated unresectable stage III or IV malignant melanoma formal support from public or private sector agencies. and has not yet published its final guidance. The Department acknowledges that unmet need is The manufacturer of ipilimumab has proposed a difficult to precisely define and measure. The eligibility patient access scheme and the Department has agreed framework issued by the Department seeks to support that the proposed scheme can be considered by NICE. councils in prioritising funding on those with the highest NICE has indicated that the appraisal will now be need. The Government are clear that everyone who referred back to its appraisal committee for further thinks they may be in need of care and support is consideration. entitled to an assessment, and if this assessment concludes 551W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 552W that services are required to meet the person’s assessed system approach to eligibility for social care”, to local needs and the person qualifies under the means-test, authorities in 2010. A copy has already been placed in services must be provided. the Library and it is available on the Department’s website at: Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ (1) what assessment he has made of the prospects for PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_113154 using increased resources for social care to reduce The guidance includes the following: avoidable emergency admissions and NHS costs; “Councils should identify any children or young people acting [92773] in a caring role and consider the impact on them. Community (2) what assessment he has made of the effect of the care packages should not rely on the input of an inappropriate level of care from a child or young person. In this respect, in social care system on the financial sustainability of the addition to the provision of adult care assessment and support, NHS. [92938] councils should be prepared, to address their duty under the Children Act 1989 to safeguard and promote the welfare of Paul Burstow: Effective partnership working and children in their area. The Children Act 1989 also specifies the integration are key enablers in delivering against the need to take the views and. interests of children into account, In Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention challenge discharging these duties, it is essential that Councils take account within the national health service, and supporting improved of the cumulative effects of responsibilities of family members efficiency within social care. This includes ensuring that within the household and where necessary, adult and children’s services should work together to protect children from having to people do not stay in hospital longer than they need to. undertake unreasonable levels of care.” The Department has put in place practical measures In the course of assessing an individual’s needs, to support social care services, in the context of a councils should recognise that adults who have parenting challenging local government settlement, and to encourage responsibilities for a child under 18-years may require improved joint working between primary care trusts help with these responsibilities. (PCTs) and local authorities. In 2011-12, £648 million has been allocated to PCTs to transfer to councils for Stem Cells spending on social care services that also benefit health. The Department has been clear that PCTs and local Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities will need to work together closely in order to Health what stem cell trials are being carried out in the agree appropriate areas of social care investment, taking UK; and what companies are involved in these. [92343] account of joint priorities identified by the joint strategic needs assessment for their local populations. Evidence Mr Simon Burns: There are currently 10 trials of stem from a survey of PCTs suggests that this funding is cell-based medicinal products for which clinical trial being used both to prevent unnecessary admissions to authorisations have been granted by the Medicines and hospital (through crisis response services for example); Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA), of and to ensure people are able to leave hospital quickly which two have commercial sponsors. The MHRA cannot (through intermediate care and re-ablement services for name sponsors because they are legally obliged to keep example). this information confidential. A further £150 million (rising to £300 million in Voluntary Organisations 2012-13) has been allocated to PCTs for the development. of post-discharge support and re-ablement services. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health There is local discretion over how this money is to be what contribution his Department is making to spent, but in a letter to the service the Department has implementation of the Compact with the voluntary been clear that: sector; and if he will make a statement. [92283] “This funding is intended specifically to develop current reablement capacity in councils, community health services, the independent Mr Simon Burns: The Department signed up to the and voluntary sectors, with the objective of ensuring rapid recovery renewed Compact published in December 2010. It is from an acute episode and reducing people’s dependency on committed to the principles of the Compact and pursues social care services following discharge”. a “compact compliant” way of working in its business Finally in addition to these funding streams, the with civil society organisations (CSOs). Department announced on 3 January 2012 that it was Over the last year the Department has taken the making a further £150 million available to PCTs, to following actions to ensure the Compact is being transfer to local authorities for spending on social care. implemented. It: The Department has set out that this funding should be has a nominated Senior Responsible Officer for the Compact, used to target delayed transfers of care which are attributable and a civil society liaison officer responsible for day to day to social care services. promotion and management of Compact implementation; reviewed and monitored consultation lengths, to ensure Social Services: Children consultations with the CSO sector are 12 weeks, where possible; has incorporated the Compact into its own cross departmental guidance on matters like grant funding and procurement; Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health monitored departmental Compact compliance, via the number what steps he is taking to ensure that children’s needs of complaints received about the implementation of the Compact; are assessed as part of their parents’ assessment by participated in the National Audit Office (NAO’s) review of social services. [92361] the National Compact implementation; and made ministerial statements and provided leadership on the Paul Burstow: The Department issued best practice Compact signalling its importance to relevant stakeholder groups guidance on social care needs assessment, “Prioritising e.g. by including a statement on the value of the Compact in need in the context of Putting People First: A whole arm’s length bodies business planning guidance. 553W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 554W

In 2012-13 the Department will also include reporting Due to the way data was recorded prior to 1 April2008, on the Compact within its business plan to be published it is not possible to provide data on the number of UK in spring 2012. nationals arrested in the UK on part 1 EAWs prior to The Department welcomes the recent NAO inquiry this date without a manual examination of each individual on Government implementation of the Compact and case file. This would incur a disproportionate cost. will work with Compact Voice to take forward the Data are not held by SOCA to allow these figures to report’s recommendations to help Departments improve be broken down into the number of warrants served in how they embed Compact principles into departmental each constituency. activities. Criminal Records: EU Action

HOME DEPARTMENT Anas Sarwar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Animal Experiments: EU Law Home Department what recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the establishment of the Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for the European Criminal Records Information System. Home Department what progress her Department has [92478] made in implementing European Directive 2010/63/EU on the protection of animals used for scientific Lynne Featherstone: The Government are fully supportive purposes. [92962] of the establishment of the European Criminal Records Lynne Featherstone: European Directive 2010/63/EU Information System (ECRIS) in April 2012. ECRIS on the protection of animals used for scientific purposes will provide for higher volumes and faster, more efficient was adopted in September 2010 and came into force on exchanges of criminal records information across the 9 November 2010. Member states must transpose the EU and will therefore be a valuable new tool in fighting provisions of the directive into national legislation by cross-border criminality. The European Commission is 10 November 2012. The majority of its provisions must satisfied that ECRIS is on track to become operational be implemented from 1 January 2013. The mandatory as scheduled in April this year and I am pleased to standards of care and accommodation set out in Annex confirm that the UK is on track to be ready to use the III to the directive must be implemented by 1 January mechanism from that point. 2017. Deloitte A public consultation on the options for transposition of the directive was launched on 13 June 2011 and John Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the closed on 5 September 2011. Over 13,000 individuals Home Department what contracts her Department has and nearly 100 organisations responded to the consultation. awarded to Deloitte since May 2010; and what the (a) Analysis of the responses is almost complete. Decisions net and (b) individual monetary value was of each on options will be announced in due course. In the such contract. [92445] meantime, preliminary work is proceeding on the preparation of draft regulations to transpose the provisions Damian Green [holding answer 30 January 2012]: of the directive into UK legislation and on the preparation The Home Department, including its executive of draft guidance to accompany the legislation. In agencies, has awarded 36 contracts with a total value of addition comments have been invited from interested £1,960,919.96 to Deloitte since May 2010. The contracts organisations on a draft code of practice on care and are as follows: accommodation. Arrest Warrants: Extradition (b) Individual monetary value Conor Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for the Contracts (a) Net value (£) (£) Home Department how many European arrest 1 Space planning exercise 5,000.00 5,000.00 warrants seeking the extradition of a UK citizen to 2 Space planning exercise 7,500.00 7,500.00 another EU member state have been served in each 3 Structural survey 2,777.90 2,777.90 constituency in each of the last five years. [92089] 4 Space planning exercise 9,984.01 9,984.01 5 Project Management— 43,547.22 43,547.22 Damian Green: The Serious Organised Crime Agency office consolidation (SOCA) and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal 6 Feasibility report 11,991.25 11,991.25 Service for Scotland are the designated UK authorities 7 Pre acquisition survey 6,967.13 6,967.13 responsible for processing European arrest warrants 8 Feasibility report 11,991.25 11,991.25 (EAWs). Information is held on part 1 cases (persons 9 Feasibility report 16,046.25 16,046.25 wanted from the UK by another member state) and 10 Feasibility report 5,916.72 5,916.72 part 3 cases (persons wanted by the UK from another 11 Feasibility report 17,122.00 17,122.00 member state). 12 Feasibility report 5,565.81 5,565.81 According to SOCA records, the following table shows 13 Space planning exercise 8,732.94 8,732.94 the number of UK nationals arrested in the UK under a 14 Project Management— 59,140.10 59,140.10 part 1 EAW from 2008-09 to 2010-11. office refurbishment 15 Project Management— 77,664.00 77,664.00 As at 1 April to 31 March each year Number of UK nationals arrested office refurbishments 16 Quality assurance 3,749.09 3,749.09 2008-09 29 exercise 2009-10 79 17 Feasibility report 11,942.72 11,942.72 2010-11 59 18 Space planning exercise 9,969.92 9,969.92 555W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 556W

(b) Individual Grant spend to December 2011 monetary value Third parties (£) Contracts (a) Net value (£) (£) (d) Refuge 300,000 19 Feasibility report 7,412.62 7,412.62 (e) London Tigers 163,604 20 Project Management— 561,900.00 561,900.00 office consolidation 21 Feasibility report 52,000.00 52,000.00 Departmental Pilot Schemes 22 Project Management— 86,196.00 86,196.00 programme of minor Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the works Home Department which pilots her Department has 23 Feasibility report 8,279.28 8,279.28 open. [91137] 24 Planning application 3,262.75 3,262.75 25 Project management 24,945.70 24,945.70 Damian Green: The Home Office business plan includes 26 Feasibility report 19,633.30 19,633.30 the following open pilots: 27 Space planning exercise 14,763.60 14,763.60 28 Specialist vat advisory 17,889.00 17,889.00 Trailblazers—building on the success of the national crime services mapping website, Police.uk, trailblazer areas are undertaking 29 Infrastructure resilience 19,913.00 19,913.00 exploratory work to increase transparency across crime, policing review and justice and through the provision of a wider range of information. 30 Programme services 362,905.60 362,905.60 Domestic violence protection orders—to conduct and evaluate consultancy services the effectiveness of domestic violence protection orders and domestic 31 Programme services 67,047.20 67,047.20 violence protection notices, which are designed to exclude the consultancy services perpetrator from the designated premises and give victims of 32 Programme services 1,505.00 1,505.00 domestic violence the time and space to consider their options. consultancy services In addition, across Home Office operations, there is 33 Programme services 68,293.60 68,293.60 consultancy services ongoing trialling of a range of potential improvements 34 Programme services 62,880.00 62,880.00 prior to full roll-out. consultancy services 35 Programme services 200,000.00 200,000.00 Departmental Work Experience consultancy services 36 Programme services 66,485.00 66,485.00 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the consultancy services Home Department what work experience or Total 1,960,919.96 1,960,919.96 traineeship schemes her Department offers to minority groups. [92750] Departmental Drinks Damian Green: The Home Office currently participates Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for the in the Fast Stream Summer Diversity Internship Home Department how much (a) her Department and programmes for minority ethnic and low socio-economic (b) its public bodies have spent on (i) wine, (ii) other background undergraduates; and the Windsor alcoholic refreshments and (iii) bottled water since Fellowship Leadership programme for minority ethnic May 2010. [91957] undergraduates.

Damian Green [holding answer 26 January 2012]: Illegal Immigrants The Home Office accounting systems do not identify separate expenditure on wine, other alcoholic refreshments Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the or bottled water. The information cannot be obtained Home Department how many (a) illegal immigrants, without incurring disproportionate cost. (b) asylum seekers, (c) foreign nationals in breach of visa requirements and (d) foreign nationals with no Departmental Grants right to remain in the UK were deported in each of the last five years; and to which countries such people were Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the deported. [92036] Home Department how much funding her Department will provide to (a) Women’s Aid, (b) the Prince’s Damian Green: Deportations are a specific subset Trust, (c) Inner City Guidance, (d) Refuge and (e) of removals which are enforced either following a London Tigers in 2011-12; and if she will make a criminal conviction or when it is judged that a person’s removal from the UK is conducive to the public good. statement. [85690] The deportation order prohibits the person returning to Damian Green [holding answer 8 December 2011]: the UK until such time as it may be revoked. Most The Home Office has provided £1.247 million to these illegal immigrants are removed under administrative or organisations so far this year. Grant applications for illegal entry powers from the UK rather than being January to March 2012 are currently under consideration. deported. It has therefore been assumed that the question refers Grant spend to December 2011 to the number of removals and voluntary departures Third parties (£) from the UK as opposed to the number of deportations.

(a) Women’s Aid 305,000 Information on (a) illegal immigrants and (c) foreign (b) The Prince’s Trust 250,000 nationals in breach of visa requirements who were (c) Inner City Guidance 228,750 removed from the UK is not separately identifiable from published sources. 557W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 558W

The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual an automated online checking service, in order to ensure statistics on the number of persons removed or departed employers are able to make quick and easy real time voluntarily from the UK within Immigration Statistics. checks on the validity of the permit. The data on removals and voluntary departures of (b) asylum seekers and (d) non-asylum seekers by country Immigration: Finance of destination are available in the latest release, Immigration Statistics: July to September 2011. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Due to the size of the tables involved for each year, Home Department what estimate she has made of annual data showing the asylum/non-asylum breakdown the cost of each immigration case contested by the by country of destination removed to, are available immigrant subject to removal proceedings in each of from table rv.06 and quarterly data from table rv.06.q the last five years; and what estimate she has made of within the Immigration Statistics releases from the Library the time each case takes to process from the initiation of the House and from the Home Office Science, Research of removal proceedings to a final resolution. [92037] and Statistics web pages at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- Damian Green: The UK Border Agency is unable to statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ provide this information without incurring disproportionate Data for October 2011 onwards are not yet available, costs. but quarterly data for October to December 2011 will Private Security Industry Act 2001 be published as part of the regular Home Office publication scheme on 23 February 2012. Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether any private companies are Home Department how many immigrants subject to exempt from the requirement of section 4 of the removal proceedings left the UK without contesting Private Security Industry Act 2001. [91261] the decision in each of the last five years; how many such immigrants appealed and were (a) successful and Lynne Featherstone: The Private Security Industry (b) unsuccessful in their appeal; and how many such Act 2001 requires the licensing of individuals undertaking immigrants remain in the UK awaiting deportation. designated activities and the voluntary approval of [92038] companies within the private security industry. It does not require companies to be licensed. Damian Green: Appellants do not have the right to Section 4 of the Private Security Industry Act 2001, appeal against removal. They are only able to exercise makes provision for exemptions from what would otherwise their right of appeal against their immigration application be licensable. This allows the Secretary of State for the decision. Home Department, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), to exempt individuals from SIA licensing in Immigrants: EU Nationals certain circumstances, if suitable alternative arrangements to licensing apply. Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department with reference to the report on the Prostitution analysis of the impacts of migration by the Migration Advisory Committee, if she will estimate the number of Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the jobs unavailable to UK citizens due to immigration Home Department (1) how many brothels were closed from EU member states. [91431] down by each police force in each of the last three years; [92894] Damian Green: The report by the Migration Advisory (2) how many brothel visits or raids each police force Committee (MAC), Analysis of the Impacts of Migration, has made in each of the last three years. [92903] investigated the possible relationship between migration and the employment of British-born citizens. For EU Lynne Featherstone: This information is not held migrants the MAC did not find estimates of the effect centrally. to be statistically significant. Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 Immigration Controls

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department what recent progress her the Home Department what recent consideration she Department has made on simplifying the has given to bringing forward legislative proposals to administrative load on small businesses relating to amend the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 in response [92252] immigration rules. [92882] to recent trends in the level of metal theft.

Damian Green: This Government’s target is to reduce James Brokenshire [holding answer 30 January 2012]: net migration, and they are committed to making the The Government recognise that metal theft is a serious immigration system easier to use. Biometric Residence and growing national problem with wide ranging social Permits (BRPs), issued to demonstrate immigration and financial impacts, including on churches and heritage status, will make identity, immigration status and ’Right sites. to Work’ (RTW) by employers simpler and more secure. The Government are taking urgent action to address We have issued 600,000 to date, and will complete the it, including funding a new dedicated metal theft roll-out to new in-country applicants from February taskforce. The Government consider that legislation is 2012. In addition, from spring 2012, we plan to launch the only sustainable, long-term solution and will lay in 559W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 560W the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Departmental Pay Bill an amendment to create a new criminal offence to prohibit cash payments to purchase scrap metal; and Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for significantly increase the fines for all offences under the Communities and Local Government how many existing Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 that regulates officials in his Department are paid £100,000 or more the scrap metal recycling industry. These amendments per annum. [92927] are part of our wider attempts to tackle all stages in the illegal trading of stolen scrap metal, and we shall bring Robert Neill: As of 31 December 2011, the Department forward further measures in due course. for Communities and Local Government had 12 staff being paid £100,000 or more per annum. Telephone Tapping: Warrants The salaries of senior staff in Department for Communities and Local Government are publicly available Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the on the Department for Communities and Local Home Department how many interception warrants Government website for the periods ending 30 September for telephone tapping she has authorised under the 2011, 31 March 2011 and 30 June 2010. Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 since This information can be found here: December 2010. [91492] http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ transparencyingovernment/staffdata/ James Brokenshire [holding answer 24 January 2012]: Information regarding the issue of warrants for the Empty Property interception of communications is set out in the annual reports of the Interception of Communications Commissioner. A link to the most recent report, covering Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010, is at: Communities and Local Government what estimate he www.ipt-uk.com/docs/ has made of the number of empty houses in the (a) Interception_of_Communications_2406.pdf UK and (b) Milton Keynes unitary authority area. [92563] Information on warrants authorised in 2011 will be published in the Commissioner’s next annual report, due to be published during 2012. Andrew Stunell: The numbers of empty homes in England and in each local authority district of England, based on data from the council tax system, are published Third Sector on the Department for Communities and Local Government website in Live Table 615 at the following Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the link: Home Department what steps her Department is http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ taking to measure progress on the implementation of housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/stockincludingvacants/ policies supporting the big society initiative; and if she livetables/ will make a statement. [91397] Figures for the other countries of the UK are published separately by the devolved Administrations. Data sources Damian Green: The Home Office promotes a number and definitions may differ between the figures for each of activities that support big society objectives. This country. includes the Safer Future Communities programme, which is helping to prepare the voluntary sector for the Energy Performance Certificates introduction of Police and Crime Commissioners. We will be evaluating how effective the programme has Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for been in the development of local voluntary and community Communities and Local Government if he will networks over the coming year. estimate the proportion of homes with an energy performance certificate rating below C that are physically capable of being brought up to a C rating or above. [91872] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Andrew Stunell [holding answer 26 January 2012]: Councillors: Conduct The Department for Communities and Local Government currently has no plans to estimate the proportion of Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for homes with energy performance certificate ratings below C Communities and Local Government whether he has that are capable of being brought up toaCrating or made an estimate of the number of local councillors above. who were considered to have vacated their office by The recommendation report of an individual certificate virtue of non-attendance under section 85 of Local provides a range of suggestions on how the property Government Act 1972 in (a) 2010 and (b) 2011. can improve its energy efficiency in a cost effective way. [91768] Of the 4,014,570 homes in England and Wales which had combined energy performance certificate ratings Robert Neill: My Department has made no such below C, up to and including 23 January 2012, 983,808 estimate. It is for local authorities to monitor the attendance have the potential to raise their ratings to C or above, as at meetings of their elected members. assessed on their certificates. 561W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 562W

Fire Services: Standards will receive an additional premium of £350 per year, up to around 36% more than for an equivalent market John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for home. Communities and Local Government how many and As outlined in the answer on 2 March 2011, Official what proportion of fire service response times from Report, column 483W,our removal of national minimum time of call to time of first attendance for each fire and density targets now gives local authorities the flexibility rescue service were of a duration of (a) up to five to set density ranges that suit the local needs in their minutes, (b) six to 10 minutes, (c) 11 to 15 minutes areas—particularly for family homes. and (d) over 15 minutes in each of the last five years. Residential Developments [R] [92591]

Robert Neill: The information requested is not yet Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for available. However, it is intended that analysis of response Communities and Local Government what steps he is time data, including the information requested, will be taking to ensure designs for new residential included in the Fire Statistics Monitor which is to be developments have safe access to (a) primary health published by July. This will include data up to 31 March care, (b) schools and (c) play areas for children. 2012. [92322] Freedom of Information Robert Neill: The Government attach great importance to the achievement of well designed homes and high Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for quality places. The draft National Planning Policy Communities and Local Government whether his Framework says that to deliver the facilities and services Department publishes on its website its response to the community needs, planning policies and decisions each request it receives under the Freedom of should ensure that housing is developed in suitable Information Act 2000; whether the response is locations which offer a range of community facilities published in the same part of its website on each and good access to key services and infrastructure. occasion; and what the average time taken is between In addition, the draft Framework also asks for key responding to a request and the information being facilities such as primary schools and local shops to be made available on the website. [92123] within walking distance of most properties, particularly for larger scale residential developments. We are currently Robert Neill: My Department places on its disclosure considering carefully all the responses to the consultation log copies of freedom of information responses which on the draft Framework. we judge would be in the wider public interest to publish. The disclosure log can be found at: Retail Trade: Planning Permission http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/foi/disclosure-log/ Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for The average time of publication varies—it is typically Communities and Local Government what guidance within a month, as they are often published in batches. he follows in determining retail planning applications Housing that have been approved by local councils and then called in. [92262] Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what steps he is Robert Neill [holding answer 30 January 2012]: In taking to ensure that homes provide sufficient personal determining any applications that he has called in for space for children, including separate bedrooms for his own determination, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. older children. [92320] Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), Andrew Stunell: The reforms to social housing allocations, has regard to the legal requirement that planning homelessness and tenure in the Localism Act will make applications should be determined in accordance with it much easier for social landlords to manage their stock the development plan, unless material considerations to reduce overcrowding. indicate otherwise. Current national planning policy on retail development is contained in PPS4 Planning for We are also consulting on new guidance for local Sustainable Economic Growth. councils which encourages them to use the ‘bedroom standard’, a modern measure of overcrowding, when Voluntary Organisations assessing whether a household is overcrowded for the purpose of allocating social housing. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for In setting out the framework for the Affordable Homes Communities and Local Government what programme, the Government have made clear that the contribution his Department is making to programme must take account of local priorities, which implementation of the Compact with the voluntary in some areas will include the provision of family-sized sector; and if he will make a statement. [92289] homes. The new homes bonus will also encourage local Andrew Stunell: The Department for Communities authorities to meet the housing need in their areas, and Local Government signed up to the renewed Compact including the housing need of families, by matching the published in December 2010. council tax for the following six years. Family homes Over the last year the Department has taken the will tend to be in a higher council tax band than smaller following actions to ensure the Compact is being houses or flats. In addition every affordable home built implemented: 563W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 564W

has a nominated Senior Responsible Office for the Compact Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has not and a civil society liaison officer responsible for day to day made any assessment of the potential for increased promotion and management of Compact implementation. passenger or business flights from RAF Northolt or on monitors departmental Compact compliance, via the number the related environmental and noise implications. of complaints received about the implementation of the Compact. RAF Northolt is a Ministry of Defence establishment. participated in the National Audit Office’s review of the National Compact implementation. I am particularly pleased that this Department won Aviation: Wales the National Compact Award during the 2011 Compact Week for our work, with the sector, in producing the Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Best Value guidance which gives a new, clear prominence Transport what discussions she has had with the Welsh to working with the voluntary sector, helps build the Government on the Draft Civil Aviation Bill and its confidence of these organisations in holding public effect on airports in Wales. [91575] agencies to account, is explicit about the scope for Best Value authorities to consider social value in their functions Mrs Villiers: The Civil Aviation Bill extends to the and specifically mentions local Compacts. whole of the UK. Welsh Government officials and In 2012-13 the Department will also include reporting Ministers have been kept informed of measures in the on the Compact within its business plan to be published Bill as they have developed. A draft copy of the Civil in spring 2012. Aviation Bill was shared with Edwina Hart AM, Minister My officials will also be following up the other for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science, in the recommendations within the National Audit Office report Welsh Government, prior to its publication. The Welsh in order to ensure that the Department continues to be Government have expressed support for the Bill. a strong model of collaborative working between Government and the voluntary sector. Christmas Water: Conservation Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much her Department spent on (a) Communities and Local Government what steps his Christmas trees and (b) other Christmas decorations Department is taking through the planning system to in 2011; and if she will make a statement. [91106] encourage rainwater harvesting in (a) domestic, (b) commercial and (c) industrial buildings. [91800] Norman Baker: In 2011 my Department spent £8 on Christmas decorations at the Air Accidents Robert Neill: In line with our reforms to simplify the Investigation Branch, Farnborough. This was for the planning system, the draft National Planning Policy replacement of lights/bulbs that were at least 12-years-old Framework, which we consulted on last year, streamlines and deemed to be a safety hazard. I do not regard this existing national planning policy into a consolidated as unreasonable. and clearer set of priorities to consider when planning There was no other expenditure on Christmas trees for sustainable development. In doing so the draft or decorations in the Department for Transport. framework sets out specific requirements only where necessary, for example, to avoid and manage risks from flooding. In this respect, the draft framework proposes Departmental Procurement that new development in flood risk areas should give priority to the use of sustainable drainage systems Chris Williamson: To ask the Secretary of State for (which can, where appropriate, include rainwater Transport pursuant to the answer of 17 January 2012, harvesting). Official Report, column 636W, on departmental 1 would also refer my hon. Friend to the answer given procurement, what contracts her Department (a) has by the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for issued and (b) has at preferred bidder stage where any Hazel Grove (Andrew Stunell), to my right hon. Friend part of the contract is priced in a foreign currency; the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames), on which part of the contract or bid is priced in a foreign 17 January 2012, Official Report, columns 632-33W, on currency in each case; and what the currency is in each the issue of rainwater harvesting. case. [92398]

Mrs Villiers: Bids are typically priced in pounds sterling. Where there are significant costs to bidders TRANSPORT arising in foreign currency, exchange rate assumptions Aviation: RAF Northolt may be provided to all bidders on which to base their bids. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for At contract signature such assumptions are re-calibrated Transport (1) what assessment her Department has for the relevant rates at that time and reflected in the made of the potential for increased (a) passenger and sterling amount to be paid under the contracts. Exchange (b) business flights from RAF Northolt; [92941] rate risk after financial close lies with the bidder. (2) what assessment her Department has made of Therefore, (a) where contracts have been issued they (a) environmental and (b) noise implications of are priced in pounds sterling; (b) details of preferred increasing the number of flights from RAF Northolt. and reserve bidders’ tenders remain confidential to [92942] bidders and the Department. 565W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 566W

Great Western Railway Line Large Goods Vehicles

Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate she has made of the potential Transport pursuant to the written ministerial statement level of public subsidy to be received by the company of 11 October 2011, Official Report, columns 24-5WS, which takes over the new Great Western franchise on on high-volume semi-trailers, what (a) information, (a) an annual and (b) a cumulative basis over the (b) advice and (c) guidance she has issued to local lifetime of the franchise. [91997] authorities in advance of the longer lorry trials. [92951] Mrs Villiers: The Department has been and will continue to undertake detailed financial analysis of the Mike Penning: No material has been issued Great Western franchise to determine its commercial specifically for local authorities. Department for Transport position for the forthcoming competition to operate officials have answered questions received from two these services. The Government do not publish such local authorities. details as this would prejudice our commercial position in obtaining the best price and value for taxpayer from Metals: Theft this franchise competition. Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for Great Western Railway Line: Electrification Transport pursuant to the answer of 12 December 2011, Official Report, column 669W, on metals: theft, Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for when the £5 million fund to establish a nationwide Transport what estimate she has made of the date of taskforce to target metal thieves and scrap metal completion of electrification of the Great Western dealers who illegally trade in stolen metal will be made Main Line to (a) Newport and (b) Cardiff Central available; and what progress has been made on a new stations. [91996] regulatory framework. [87708]

Mrs Villiers: Network Rail is delivering the electrification Norman Baker: In the autumn statement, the British of the Great Western Main Line. Newport and Cardiff Transport police were given the go-ahead to will be complete by December 2017. undertake expenditure from the £5 million fund for the establishment and operation of a dedicated national High Speed 2 taskforce to tackle metal theft. Work is now under way to establish a central command and management team Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for to co-ordinate operational activity and intelligence, Transport what recent estimate she has made of the supported by a number of regional teams, comprising cost to the public purse of compensation payments to police, Environment Agency and HMRC representatives, residents and businesses along the planned High Speed who will undertake enhanced enforcement and detection 2 route up to the beginning of train services on the activity. route. [91917] The Government believe that the existing regulatory regime for the scrap metal industry is no longer effective Justine Greening: As of September 2011, HS2 Ltd and needs to be revised. As the Secretary of State for estimated the cost of land acquisition and compensation the Home Department, my right hon. Friend the Member payments to be £965 million, for the first phase London for Maidenhead (Mrs May), announced in a written to West Midlands route. This does not include discretionary ministerial statement on 26 January 2012, Official Report, or hardship-based acquisitions as these proposals are columns 25-26WS, the Government will be tabling still under development and will be consulted on in the amendments to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment spring. of Offenders Bill to prohibit cash payments for the purchase of scrap metal, and to increase fines for offences Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for under the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964. Further measures Transport pursuant to the oral statement of 10 January will be brought forward in due course. 2012, Official Report, columns 23-59, on high-speed rail, what estimate she has made of the number of Midland Main Railway Line: Electrification businesses that will re-locate from Birmingham to London as a result of shorter journey times; and if she will make a statement. [90288] Vernon Coaker: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what plans she has for the electrification of Justine Greening [holding answer 17 January 2012]: the Midland Mainline between Nottingham and It is estimated that HS2 will help support growth in London; and if she will make a statement. [92510] employment of more than 8,000 jobs in the west midlands and regenerate Birmingham’s Eastside. While no specific Mrs Villiers: The Government support progressive assessment has been made of whether businesses would electrification of the rail network in England and Wales relocate from Birmingham to London as a result of as a way of reducing the cost of running the railways, HS2, table 5 of the Economic Case for HS2 published increasing efficiency and reducing carbon emissions. this month shows that, based on where people start We continue to work with Network Rail to look at the their journeys, over three-quarters of the monetised case for further electrification, including of the Midland business benefits of a Y-shaped HS2 network are likely Main Line, between Nottingham and London, in the to be accrued outside London. next rail Control Period starting in 2014. 567W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 568W

Railway Trains Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Greening), recently met with Carl Sargeant, Assembly what assessment she has made of the effect of measures Minister with responsibility for Transport, to discuss to control costs in rail franchise awards on (a) train rail related issues. The meeting did not cover any of the timetables and (b) levels of overcrowding; and if she above issues. will make a statement. [91286] Officials are in regular contact with officials from the Welsh Assembly Government on a range of rail and Mrs Villiers: Improving efficiency and reducing cost other issues. is vital to the future of the railway. But this will not be at the cost of good services for passengers and will not Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for lead to a reduction in capacity. This Government are Transport when she expects to announce the findings investing in rail, with £18 billion of rail funding in last of studies on the possible electrification of the Valley year’s spending review and the biggest programme of Lines. [92136] railway modernisation since the Victorian era. Mrs Villiers: As the studies on the possible electrification of the Valley Lines have been commissioned by the Railways Welsh Government, it is for that Government to make any such announcements. John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the minimum number of station calls is Mrs Siân C. James: To ask the Secretary of State for at each station each (a) week and (b) day on the Transport what recent discussions she has had with Intercity West Coast franchise route (i) to and from Ministers in the Welsh Government on electrification London Euston and (ii) between Birmingham New of rail infrastructure serving Swansea. [92209] Street and Edinburgh Waverley. [R] [92383] Mrs Villiers: The Secretary of State for Transport, Mrs Villiers: The Train Service Requirement (TSR) my right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine requested was published on 20 January 2012 and is Greening), met Carl Sargeant AM on 16 January 2012 available on the Departments website at: where the matter of Cardiff to Swansea electrification was discussed alongside the Welsh Government’s other http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/intercity-west-coast- electrification proposals. franchise-itt/attachment-a.pdf Taxis: Fares Railways: Kent Mr Burley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment she has made of the Transport when she expects to begin the tendering operation of section 71 of the Local Government process for the next Integrated Kent Franchise (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 on taxi metering. agreement. [91993] [92534]

Mrs Villiers: The Department normally begins the Norman Baker: The Department has made no assessment formal process for retendering for new franchises around of the operation of this section. Individual licensing 18 months before the new commencement date. We authorities are responsible for testing any taximeters have not yet made any formal announcement regarding which are fitted in the private hire vehicles which they the timescales for the new Integrated Kent Franchise license. They can take action against any person who which is due to start on 1 April 2014. attempts to deceive consumers by tampering with a taximeter. Railways: Wales There is a wider point about ensuring that any taximeter placed on the market complies with the Measuring Instruments (Taximeters) Regulations 2006 (SI 2006/2304). Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for We are currently looking into various options as to how Transport what estimate she has made of the number the enforcement regime under these regulations will be of miles of railway track within Wales that will be carried out in the future. electrified by the end of (a) December 2016 and (b) December 2017. [91998] Transport: Infrastructure

Mrs Villiers: Network Rail’s electrification programme Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for will not have delivered electrified track in Wales by Transport with reference to the analysis by IPPR December 2016. I currently estimate that for December North of the autumn statement announcements on 2017, up to 101 single track miles will be electrified and transport infrastructure, whether she has made an ready for electric services. assessment of IPPR North’s conclusion that 84 per cent. of the announced spending on such projects will Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for benefit London and the South East region. [89431] Transport what discussions she has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on (a) the McNulty Review Norman Baker: I have not assessed IPPR North’s of Rail Value for Money study, (b) capacity on the specific assertion that 84% of the transport infrastructure redoubling of the Swindon to Kemble route and (c) spending announcements in the autumn statement of the consultation for the proposed new Great Western 29 November 2011, Official Report, columns 799-810, franchise. [91999] will benefit London and the south-east. 569W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 570W

However, the following table breaks down spend on Total spend (£ both the transport schemes announced as part of the Description million) autumn statement and the further Local Authority Major Transport schemes announced on 14 December Coventry-Nuneaton rail upgrade 9.8 2011, Official Report, columns 104-6WS. 295.6 This clearly demonstrates that the autumn statement announcements will improve transport networks across East Midlands the country. Widening A453 between Nottingham, the M1 and 160.0 East Midlands airport It can be difficult and misleading to assign spend to a Improving Junction 19—the junction between the 153.0 particular region as the benefits of certain projects can M1, M6 and A14, a key freight route, as well as be far more widespread (for example, improvements to improving safety a particular section of motorway will not only benefit Widening A14 Junction 7 to Junction 9 (Kettering 113.4 those living nearby). In addition, a number of projects Bypass) announced in the autumn statement, such as funding New A43 Corby link road 21.2 for bridge renewals, are not specific to a particular Hucknall town centre improvement scheme 8.5 region. For Trans Pennine Electrification, spend has Lincoln eastern bypass 50.0 been apportioned between the north-west and Yorkshire London road bridge (Derby) 4.4 and the Humber for the purpose of this exercise. Loughborough town centre transport scheme 14.8 Nottingham ring road 12.8 538.1 Total spend (£ Description million)

North East East Morpeth northern bypass 21.1 A14 targeted improvements between Cambridge and 20.0 Huntingdon Sunderland strategic corridor 82.6 Croxley rail link (Watford) 76.2 Accelerate NEXUS (Tyne and Wear metro) 4.0 modernisation programme1 Luton town centre transport scheme 15.9 107.7 Norwich northern distributor road 86.5 198.6

North West South West New link road for M56 (Manchester Airport) to the 120.0 A6 South Bristol link phases 1 and 2 27.6 Crewe Green link southern section 15.7 New A380 road linking Newton Abbot to Torbay 76.4 Manchester cross city bus1 32.5 (Kingskerswell Bypass) Pennine Reach (East Lanes rapid transit) 31.9 Bath transportation package 11.7 Rochdale interchange1 7.0 BRT Ashton Vale to Temple Meads (Bristol) 34.5 Trans Pennine electrification (spend arbitrarily split 145.0 Camborne-Pool-Redruth transport package 16.1 between regions) Elmbridge transport (Gloucester) 14.1 352.1 Weston Super Mare package 10.4 North Fringe to Hengrove package BRT (Bristol) 51.1 241.9 Yorkshire and the Humber Accelerating M1 J39-42 improvements1 50.0 Leeds inner ring road2 18.5 London Leeds rail growth 10.3 Managed motorway on the M3, Junction 2 to 150.1 A6182 White Rose Way improvement scheme 9.7 Junction 4a South Yorkshire bus rapid transit phase 1 (Sheffield) 19.4 Accelerating M25 Junction 23 to Junction 27 50.0 improvements1 A164 Humber bridge to Beverley 7.7 Retrofit existing buses for air quality purposes (this 5.0 Beverley integrated transport plan 20.7 will be match funded by the Mayor) A684 Bedale bypass 35.9 205.1 Access York park and ride 15.3 New road linking the A18 and A180 4.9 South East Supertram additional vehicles (Sheffield) 12.4 Large debt write off and lower tolls for the Humber 294.0 Tipner interchange (Portsmouth) 19.8 Bridge Northern road bridge (Portsmouth) 11.1 Trans Pennine electrification (spend arbitrarily split 145.0 East-West rail project 270.0 between regions) Flexible commuter rail tickets 45.0 643.8 New Southern rail carriages 80.0 425.9 West Midlands Managed motorway on the M6 - Junction 10a to 118.9 Not region specific Junction 13 Improving the A45/46 at Tollbar End 113.0 Integrated transport block top up—Used by local 50.0 transport authorities for small transport A45 westbound bridge (Solihull) 8.5 improvement schemes costing less than £5 million Darlaston (Walsall) 14.3 Road pinch point fund—Local Managed Network 217.5 Evesham bridge maintenance 8.6 Schemes and highways technology improvements Worcester ITS 14.2 New low carbon emission buses—green bus fund 20.0 Chester Road (Birmingham) 8.3 round 3 571W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 572W

Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence makes extensive Total spend (£ Description million) provision for the entertainment of our armed forces overseas and in the UK. Entertainment is not provided Tackle local problems on the rail network more 100.0 centrally, but by a large number of different elements. quickly (NRDF) Examples include a contract with Combined Services Metal theft taskforce 5.0 Entertainment to provide shows overseas and to those Capping rail fares at RPI+1 (lost rail revenues and 290.0 transitional costs)—includes TfL recovering in Headley Court and Selly Oak; separately, Rail winter resilience 10.0 shows are provided for ships at sea. A contract with the Access for All station accessibility improvements 26.0 Services Sound and Vision Corporation provides television Bridge renewals 250.0 and radio services for a number of overseas bases. 968.6 Additionally, more than 25,000 armed forces personnel 1 These schemes are being accelerated and spend is being brought forward and their families are reached by Garrison Radio. from future years. Commanding officers have access to the Commanding 2 This is the maximum DfT spend and is dependent on the successful Officers’ Public Fund and Accumulated Welfare Fund, resolution of various funding agreements with other bodies who have liability for some of the works. which can be used for the purchase of a variety of items, including televisions and computers. Figures for all elements of this entertainment provision are not held WALES centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Voluntary Organisations

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for what contribution her Department is making to Defence what acts have performed for UK service implementation of the Compact with the voluntary personnel overseas in the last 12 years; and at what cost sector; and if she will make a statement. [92297] to his Department. [92212] Mr David Jones: This Compact is an agreement between the Government and civil society organisations in England. Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence has a contract The Welsh Government have operational responsibility with Combined Services Entertainment to provide for engagement with civil society organisations in areas entertainment acts, such as dancers, comedians and where policy responsibility is devolved and has existing bands, to UK service personnel deployed overseas. The arrangements for engagement with civil society details of the individual acts contracted over this period organisations. The Compact does not override these are not held. For the 2011-12 financial year we expect arrangements. the total cost for overseas performances (including travel, The Wales Office does not fund services provided by subsistence, insurance and other costs as well as fees voluntary and civil society organisations in Wales but paid to performers) to be £1.946 million. This is based where the Government interact with or have responsibility on actual costs to the end of December 2011 and for funding these services in Wales, they will honour the forecasts for January to March 2012. commitments made in the Compact. For the previous 12 years the costs are shown in the following table:

DEFENCE Cost (£ million) Afghanistan: Army 1999-2000 0.096 2000-01 0.093 Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2001-02 0.054 Defence what steps he is taking to increase the 2002-03 0.121 recruitment numbers for the (a) Afghanistan National 2003-04 2.151 Army and (b) Afghanistan National Police. [92334] 2004-05 0.936 Nick Harvey: Recruitment numbers for the Afghanistan 2005-06 1.439 National Army (ANA) and Afghanistan National Police 2006-07 1.601 (ANP) are matters for the Government of Afghanistan. 2007-08 1.786 However, we will continue to work closely with them 2008-09 1.805 through the NATO Training Mission—Afghanistan to 2009-10 0.887 help build the capacity and capability of the forces. 2010-11 1.384 Both the ANA and ANP are on track to reach their maximum target numbers in October 2012 as endorsed by the Standard Security Committee of the Joint Departmental Theft Co-ordination Monitoring Board, the formal decision making body for Afghan and international co-ordination. Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Entertainers Defence if he will place in the Library a list of all items with a value of more than £100 which were stolen from Mr Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department in 2011. [92957] Defence what provision his Department has made for the entertainment of UK armed forces (a) overseas and (b) UK-based in 2011-12; and what the equivalent Mr Robathan: The information requested is available figures were in each of the last 12 years. [92211] in the Library of the House. 573W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 574W

Depleted Uranium with the publication of reports following the Ministry of Defence (MOD) investigation of the facts. Mr Ward: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Details about the Medical Assessment Programme what methods were used to demilitarise and dispose of have been on the MOD, Veterans-UK, and NHS websites the depleted uranium ammunition for the Phalanx for many years. In addition, last year the MOD, Department Close-in Weapon System; which regulatory framework of Health and the Royal College of General Practitioners applied to the work; how the depleted uranium metal launched a GPs’ e-learning package on veterans’ and was disposed of; and where the final disposal site was service families’ health to help increase GPs’ awareness located. [92173] of military issues raised. This followed the report on veterans’ mental health care published by my hon. Nick Harvey [holding answer 30 January 2012]: Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Demilitarisation of the depleted uranium ammunition Murrison). for the Phalanx Close-in Weapons System was carried Libya: Armed Conflict out under a Prime Contract at a commercial facility in Germany, with final disposal being completed at a commercial licensed recycling facility in the USA. Under Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for the terms of the contract, both the prime contractor Defence what assessment he has made since the and associated sub-contractors were required to have conclusion of Operation Ellamy of NATO’s the applicable licences and to comply with appropriate requirement for independent ISTAR assets for future national and international safety and environmental operations. [91779] regulations and with due regard to conventions, protocols and approvals. This included registration and use of Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence is conducting Euratom safeguard registered sites, as required by the its own lessons identified exercise. This will feed into Euratom treaty within Europe. The commercial facility NATO’s assessment of the operations in Libya. in the USA melted and cast the depleted uranium into The lessons identified will contribute to the Department’s ingots which are stored there for recycling. internal planning round process and also the NATO Defence Planning process. Certain capabilities, including Ex-servicemen: Health Services intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft, were identified as priority capability shortfalls at the Mr Ainsworth: To ask the Secretary of State for NATO Lisbon summit and work continues to address Defence pursuant to the answer of 17 January 2012, them, including through the Secretary General’s Smart Official Report columns 728-9W, on ex-servicemen: Defence Initiative. health services, (1) whether his Department has established whether the low numbers of referrals of Military Aircraft patients with physical health problems to the Medical Assessment Programme is due to (a) patients not Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for having such needs or (b) GPs not being aware of the Defence (1) on how many occasions Combined Air services available to them; [91814] Operations Centre Finderup has directed Quick (2) what steps his Department has taken to ensure Reaction Alert flights from each RAF base; [91947] that GPs are aware of the (a) Medical Assessment (2) how many UK service personnel are assigned to Programme (MAP) and (b) services offered by the each Combined Air Operations Centre. [91948] MAP. [91815] Nick Harvey: To identify unknown aircraft in the Mr Robathan [holding answer 26 January 2012]: We NATO Air Policing Area, the NATO Combined Air believe that the decline of physical health referrals from Operations Centre Finderup issued direction to United 1990-91 Gulf veterans is due to a number of factors. Kingdom Control and Reporting Centres for the launch Most notably, the Gulf conflict took place over 20 years of UK military Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) aircraft ago and so it is unsurprising that referrals of physical on 10 occasions in 2011. The choice of the QRA base or health complaints of Gulf veterans have now reduced bases used for each incident is at the discretion of the to a very low level and that those which are reported are tactical commander and forms part of the deterrent less likely to be connected with their deployment. value of our QRA posture. Therefore, this figure includes Another key factor is the reassurance provided by the launches from both RAF Coningsby and RAF Leuchars. publication of independent peer-reviewed scientific research The number of UK service personnel currently assigned in the UK and US showing that there is no evidence of to Combined Air Operations Centres (CAOC) is 47. a unique ‘Gulf War Syndrome’. In addition many of The following table details the locations of each CAOC the issues of concern to Gulf veterans have been addressed and the personnel numbers at each:

Number of Royal Air Force Number of Royal Navy Location personnel Number of Army personnel personnel

CAOC1—Finderup, Denmark 16 1 0 CAOC2—Uedem, Germany 4 0 0 CAOC5—Poggio Renatico, Italy 0 0 0 C AOC6—Eskesehir, Turkey 0 0 0 CAOC7—Larissa, Greece 0 0 0 CAOC8—Torrejon, Spain 0 0 0 575W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 576W

Number of Royal Air Force Number of Royal Navy Location personnel Number of Army personnel personnel

CAOC10—Monsanto, Portugal 0 1 0 Air Component Command CAOC-Al Udeid 23 2 0 Total 4340 Note: CAOCs 3, 4 and 9 have been inactive since 2008.

Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff [holding answer 30 January 2012]: The Defence how many aircraft of each type are in service number of fixed wing and rotary aircraft in service with in each branch of the armed forces; and where each each branch of the armed forces, and where each such such aircraft is based. [92100] aircraft is based is shown in the following table:

Aircraft type Service Based at In-service fleet (number)

Apache Army Wattisham, Middle Wallop 67 BAE 146 RAF Northolt 2 BAE 125 RAF Northolt 6 C-17 RAF Brize Norton 7 Chinook Mk 2/2a and Mk 3 RAF Odiham 46 Defender Mk 1 Army Aldergrove 9 Gazelle Army Aldergrove, Suffield (Canada), Middle Wallop 35 Hawk T1/T1A/T1W RAF Valley, Leeming, Culdrose, Scampton 129 Hawk T2 RAF Valley 28 Hercules C130K RAF Brize Norton 8 Hercules C130J RAF Brize Norton 24 Islander Mk 1 and Mk2 Army Aldergrove, Middle Wallop, Northolt 7 King Air RAF Waddington 5 Lynx Mk3 Fleet Yeovilton 11 Lynx Mk7 Army Dishforth, Odiham, Yeovilton, Gütersloh (Germany), 50 Middle Wallop Lynx Mk8 Fleet Yeovilton 33 Lynx Mk 9/9a Army Dishforth, Odiham, Yeovilton, Gütersloh, Middle 22 Wallop Merlin Mk 1 Fleet Culdrose 42 Merlin Mk 3/3a RAF Benson 28 Puma RAF Benson 31 Sea King Mk 3/3a RAF Valley, Wattisham, Lossiemouth, Leconfield, Boulmer, 25 Chivenor, Falkland Islands Sea King Mk 4 Fleet Yeovilton 37 Sea King Mk 5 Fleet Culdrose 16 Sea King Mk 7 Fleet Culdrose 13 Sentinel RAF Waddington 5 Sentry RAF Waddington 6 Tornado GR4 RAF Marham; Lossiemouth, Coningsby 136 Tri-Star RAF Brize Norton 8 Tucano T1 RAF Linton-on-Ouse 91 Typhoon RAF Coningsby, Leuchars, Falkland Islands, BAE Warton 86 VC10 RAF Brize Norton 9 Vigilant T1 RAF Volunteer Gliding Schools (VGS)—Various1 65 Viking T1 RAF VGS Various2 82 1 Abingdon, Dalton Barracks; Chivenor; Cosford; Halton; Henlow; Linton-on-Ouse; Little Rissington; Lossiemouth; Newtownards Airfield; Odiham; St Athan; Swansea Airport; Syerston; Ternhill; Topcliffe; Woodvale. 2 Arbroath Airfield; Hullavington, Buckley Barracks; Kenley; Kirknewton; Predannack Airfield; Syerston; Upavon Airfield; Watton, STANTA (Stanford Practical Training Area) Airfield; MDP Wethersfield.

Radioactive Waste: Dalgety Bay Turkey: Armed Forces

Mr Gordon Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence with reference to his planned visit to Fife in how many UK armed forces personnel have been the week of 30 January 2012, if he will visit the sites at deployed to Turkey in the last two months; and if he Dalgety Bay now under scrutiny for radiation will make a statement. [92224] contamination. [92875]

Mr Robathan: I am, this day, at Dalgety Bay and am Nick Harvey: There has been no deployment of UK visiting these sites. My office notified the right hon. armed forces personnel to Turkey within the last two Member’s office of my visit on 19 January. months. 577W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 578W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Delegation regularly meets with civil society representatives from different regions, including women from regions Afghanistan: Drugs affected by conflict, and this will continue at the final Preparatory Committee meeting and the UN Negotiating Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Conference. At the July Preparatory Committee meeting, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what level of the UK delegation met a group of survivors of armed drugs was seized in Afghanistan in the last three years; violence. The UK has also funded a project in India and what further steps he plans to take to reduce drug that examined the impact of gun violence on women in production in that country. [92306] Indian communities.

Alistair Burt: The Criminal Justice Task Force, Atlantic Ocean Islands: Environment Protection Afghanistan’s leading counter narcotics judicial institution, records all significant drug seizures associated with the Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for prosecutions it handles. It suggests a total of 353.2 metric Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent tonnes of illicit narcotics (heroine, morphine, opium, assessment he has made of the case for establishing a hashish) was seized between April 2009 and December Marine Protected Area at (a) Tristan da Cunha, (b) 2011. Very low-level drugs cases are not included in this South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, (c) figure. Bermuda and (d) Pitcairn Island. [92165] The UK has provided strong support to the Government of Afghanistan in delivering their National Drug Control Mr Lidington: Various activities are currently under Strategy (NDCS) and, in partnership with our international way relating to the conservation of the marine resources partners and the United Nations Office on Drugs Crime, of Tristan, South Georgia and the South Sandwich will continue to do so in future. The NDCS sets out a Islands, Bermuda and Pitcairn. These will inform the comprehensive response to the narcotics trade including ongoing discussions between my Department and Overseas law enforcement, criminal justice, economic development Territory (OT) Governments about the appropriate options and regional co-operation. for the management and protection of the rich environmental assets of the OTs. Afghanistan: Police Bangladesh: Military Coups Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for been made on establishing the Police Academy of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has Afghanistan; what the expected completion date is; and discussed with the government of Bangladesh the how many recruits are expected to be trained each year. attempted military coup in that country in December [92330] 2011. [92541]

Alistair Burt: The police training centre in Helmand Alistair Burt: Our high commission in Dhaka has has been operating since June 2010. Over 3,400 new discussed the attempted coup with the Bangladesh recruits and 570 junior officers have graduated since the Government and has made clear our strong support for training centre opened. As of January 2012 there are democracy and democratic institutions. 507 trainees at the training centre consisting of 198 junior The UK does not condone or support unconstitutional officers, 299 patrolmen and 10 trauma assistance personnel action or any attempts to seize power by force. We medics. The number of recruits trained in future will favour constructive dialogue and strong independent vary depending on the nature of training being delivered, and accountable institutions for a healthy and sustainable based on Afghan needs. democracy in Bangladesh. We continue to invest in the training centre, which Ethiopia: Human Rights will become the police training academy once construction is fully completed. The construction of student accommodation and a student Mosque is due to be Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for completed by March 2012. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent visits UK diplomats have made to the Ogaden region; and Arms Trade: Treaties what discussions on the human rights of the people of that region his Department has had with the (a) Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Government of Ethiopia, (b) Government of Somalia and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is taking steps and (c) African Union; and if he will make a to support the participation of women from conflict- statement. [92107] affected countries in the Arms Trade Treaty negotiations. [92682] Mr Lidington: British Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Department for International Development Alistair Burt: Civil society and non-governmental officials regularly visit Ethiopia’s Ogaden region, and organisations have played a crucial role in the progress meet with governmental, non-governmental, and civil made on an Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) so far, and, society representatives. The British embassy in Addis alongside Ambassador Moritan of Argentina, the Chair Ababa regularly discusses the human rights situation in of the UN process on ATT, the UK has worked to the region with Ethiopian federal and regional governments. ensure that civil society retain a voice in the UN Preparatory We have not raised human rights in the Ogaden Committee meetings. We will continue to support this region directly with the Transitional Government of approach at the UN Conference in 2012. The UK Somalia. 579W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 580W

Strengthening the protection of human rights and a review of those elements of the Guidance dealing promoting good governance across Africa is a core with gender issues. The review will focus on how the element of HMG’s regular dialogue with the African Guidance has been implemented and whether any further Union. changes are needed in order to ensure that the Guidance is effective and user-friendly. The review will also be an EU Action opportunity for users of the Guidance to provide feedback on the content of the Guidance, including the extent to Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for which it supports our goal of protecting and promoting Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment women’s rights. he has made of paragraph 11 of the EU Parliament Motion for a Resolution B7-0000/2012 of 9 January Occupied Territories: Housing 2012; and if he will make a statement. [92406] Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Lidington: The UK Government have noted both and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has the European Parliament’s resolution and the Serbian received on the effects of house demolitions in the west Government’s announcement on 12 January 2012 that bank; what assistance the Government plans to provide article 359 of the Criminal Code will be replaced during to Bedouins in Anata following the demolition of their 2012 with a series of more specific offences, in line with houses; and if he will make a statement. [92207] EU and Council of Europe recommendations. The UK, in supporting an EU future for Serbia and all countries Alistair Burt: Our officials in the British embassy in in the Western Balkans, will continue to insist that Tel Aviv and the British Consulate General in Jerusalem applicant states fully comply with the EU’s membership monitor events in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian criteria before acceding, including in establishing the Territories and make daily reports on various issues rule of law. including demolitions. Demolitions of houses and the Falkland Islands: Sovereignty eviction of Palestinians from their homes are deeply unhelpful when the focus should be on confidence-building Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for steps with the aim of giving momentum to negotiations Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent between Israel and the Palestinians. discussions he has had with his US counterpart on the I most recently raised concerns over plans to move Falkland Islands. [92015] west bank Bedouin communities with Deputy Foreign minister Danny Ayalon on 9 January. Our officials at Mr Jeremy Browne: We are in regular touch with the the embassy in Tel Aviv regularly discuss the issue with US on this and many other issues. They understand our the Israeli authorities. The Israeli authorities state that position. The Secretary of State for Foreign and they are yet to finalise their plans and will consult fully Commonwealth Affairs, the right hon. Member for with Bedouin communities before moving ahead. The Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), discussed the Falkland UK continues to encourage the Israeli Government to Islands with Secretary Clinton in Washington in December. carry through on this commitment, to comply fully with The US takes no position on the Islands’ sovereignty, their obligations under international law and to ensure but recognises the UK’s administration. This is a that any decision reached on the movement of Bedouin longstanding US position. Ministers and officials have communities should be made with their full consent and will continue to make it clear to their US counterparts and not result in a forcible transfer. that the wishes of the Islanders are paramount, and The UK provides assistance through a number of that we will not negotiate on sovereignty so long as the organisations to enable Bedouin and other affected Islanders wish to remain British. individuals to make legal representations against demolitions and evictions. Human Rights Pitcairn Islands Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who within his Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Department is leading the review of guidance on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many security and justice assistance; and what steps he is officials in his Department are responsible for the taking to ensure gender considerations are included in Pitcairn Islands. [92012] that review. [92684] Mr Jeremy Browne: There are around seven Foreign Mr Jeremy Browne: The Overseas Security and Justice and Commonwealth Office (FCO) officials with Assistance (OSJA) guidance focuses on managing the responsibilities relating to Pitcairn, among other duties. risk of serious violations of human rights that may Other FCO officials provide specialist support and advice arise from Her Majesty’s Government’s (HMG’s) security as required. and justice work. The Guidance refers specifically to sexual violence Serbia: Bail and human trafficking, issues which affect women and girls in particular, and more broadly, the need to protect Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for and promote women’s rights is mainstreamed throughout Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many cases the Guidance. of UK nationals having been refused bail by the The Human Rights and Democracy Department of Serbian criminal justice system his Department was the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is leading the dealing with in the latest period for which figures are internal review of the OSJA Guidance, which will include available. [92439] 581W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 582W

Mr Lidington: The UK Government do not collect Applicants must also meet the requirements of the EU data on the number of UK nationals refused bail by the acquis, including chapters 23 and 24, which cover judiciary Serbian criminal justice system. However, our embassy and fundamental rights and justice, freedom and security. in Belgrade are aware of three UK nationals currently The European Commission’s October 2011 Opinion on remand in prison in Serbia pending future criminal on Serbia’s application for EU membership noted that hearings, one of whom has applied for bail and has had Serbia has made significant progress against these criteria, it refused. but that further implementation of reforms is required. We will continue to encourage, and offer support to, the Serbia: Detainees Serbian authorities in making these necessary reforms.

Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Sovereignty: Scotland Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of the welfare of UK passport holders detained by the Serbian criminal justice system. [92440] Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what Mr Lidington: Foreign and Commonwealth Office communications his Department has received from consular staff in Serbia endeavour to visit UK nationals foreign governments in relation to the Scottish detained by the Serbian authorities as soon as possible Government’s policy of seeking independence for after their arrest, and conduct a welfare questionnaire Scotland. [92455] aimed at establishing the conditions they are experiencing in prison, whether they have access to legal representation Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth and to check whether they are being treated in line with Office has discussions with, and receives representations internationally accepted standards in relation to prison from, Governments across the world on a wide range of conditions. issues. As has been the custom of successive Governments, we do not routinely publish communications received Our assessment is that UK nationals are not treated from foreign Governments. differently in any way from other incarcerated persons within Serbia. As the European Commission’s October 2011 Report on Serbia notes, Serbia is continuing to Syria: Politics and Government make efforts to improve prison conditions, but many prisons still lack adequate facilities. Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what (a) military and (b) Serbia: EU Accession financial assistance the Government has offered to the Free Syrian Army in the last two months; and if he will Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [92223] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has made of offences under the Serbia criminal Alistair Burt: The British Government have not offered justice system that would need to be repealed before to provide any military or financial assistance to the that country’s accession to the EU. [92437] Free Syrian Army. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Mr Lidington: The UK Government have not made Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond an assessment of the precise legislative changes that (Yorks) (Mr Hague), in a statement following his meeting Serbia will need to make in order to accede to the with members of the Syrian opposition on 21 November European Union (EU). As the European Commission’s emphasised Britain’s commitment to supporting peaceful 2011 Opinion on Serbia’s application for EU membership democratic change in Syria: noted, in order to meet EU standards and accede to the “We call on all sides to refrain from violence, show restraint EU, Serbia will need to adopt and implement new and vocalise their support for peaceful protest.” legislation across a number of fields, including changes to the constitution and criminal code. The UK, in Third Sector supporting an EU future for Serbia and all countries in the Western Balkans, will continue to insist that applicant states fully comply with the EU’s membership criteria Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for before acceding. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contribution his Department is making to implementation of the Dr Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Compact with the voluntary sector; and if he will make Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what account he a statement. [92284] has taken of the (a) human rights record and (b) rule of law in the Republic of Serbia in formulating his Mr Jeremy Browne: The Foreign and Commonwealth policy on its potential accession to the EU. [92438] Office (FCO) signed up to the renewed Compact published in December 2010. Much of our activity takes place Mr Lidington: The UK Government strongly support overseas so is not within the remit of the Compact. We an EU future for Serbia, and for all countries in the work hard, however, to strengthen and support civil Western Balkans, but insist that applicant states fully society in all the countries that we work in. comply with the EU’s membership criteria before acceding. The FCO make it as easy as possible for staff to This includes meeting the Copenhagen criteria, which contribute to their community by giving all employees require applicant countries to have achieved stability of up to five days paid special leave a year for this, whether institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, in the UK or abroad. Many staff also choose to give up human rights and respect for and protection of minorities. their own time to volunteer. 583W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 584W

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT agreement to the Istanbul Process on regional security and co-operation drawn up at the Istanbul Conference Afghanistan: Education in November 2011. It is important that both Afghanistan and Pakistan work together to improve their long-term Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for prosperity and security. International Development how many people in Afghanistan have undertaken an education programme Charities: Education funded by his Department in the last three years. [92298] Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Andrew Mitchell: Education is vital for Afghanistan’s International Development what assessment he has long-term prosperity. The UK supports the Afghan made of his Department’s joint working with the education system by pooling funds with other donors education charity Tide. [92168] through the Afghanistan Reconstruction Trust Fund (ARTF) which helps to co-ordinate international funding Mr O’Brien: DFID’s joint working with TIDE was and strengthens Afghan government financial systems. subject to a full evaluation as part of the 2009 “Review UK aid channelled via the ARTF has helped ensure of DFID’s work to Build Support for Development that now 5.8 million children are attending school—almost through the education system” completed by 40% of them girls. Our contribution has also helped PricewaterhouseCoopers. train teachers and rebuild schools. DFID is also funding technical and vocational education and training. We Developing Countries: Employment have provided training for 3,460 citizens of Helmand province so far, helping them to find employment and apprenticeships. Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what definition of new jobs Afghanistan: Females created his Department uses in respect of its country plans. [92214] Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent discussions he Mr O’Brien: Currently Department for International has had on increasing female representation in political Development (DFID) country offices choose definitions life in Afghanistan. [92328] of job creation appropriate to the local context. The range of job definitions includes: Alistair Burt: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. Wage employment in the formal sector In advance of the International Conference on Wage employment in the informal sector Afghanistan in Bonn on 5 December, I met Afghan civil Increase in income for self-employed individuals/households society representatives and female parliamentarians and These are designed to capture the variety of situations discussed the importance of women participating fully where a DFID intervention has given people the in the political process. opportunity to earn their way out of poverty. Income The Government’s International Violence Against increase is a particularly relevant metric in rural areas, Women Champion, my hon. Friend the Member for especially amongst farming households, while wage Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), attended employment is more commonly the focus in urban the Civil Society Forum on Afghanistan in Bonn where interventions. Policy interventions also tend to focus on she reiterated the British Government’s commitment to formal employment (ie data collected by national statistics an inclusive political process in Afghanistan and the offices). importance of the protection of Afghan women’s rights. She also met a range of representatives from Afghan Employment civil society and discussed female representation in political life. Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for Afghanistan: Terrorism International Development how he will measure progress made towards his target to support jobs and Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for opportunities to generate income for more than 10 International Development what recent discussions he million people. [92132] has had with the Government of Pakistan on reducing (a) Taliban and (b) terrorist attacks in Afghanistan. Mr O’Brien: The overall Department for International [92329] Development (DFID) target of supporting jobs Alistair Burt: I have been asked to reply on behalf of and opportunities to generate income for more than the Department for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs. 10 million people is derived from the targets in the plans of DFID country offices and UK-based departments. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth These operational plans can be found on the DFID Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond website at (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has had regular discussions with his Pakistani counterpart, most recently in December http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Site-search/?q=operational+plans 2011. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Each country office and department is responsible Commonwealth Affairs encouraged Pakistan to play a for monitoring progress against its operational plan on full role in the stabilisation of Afghanistan and in the the basis of progress reports received from projects and improvement of regional security. We welcome Pakistan’s programmes as well as periodic reviews and evaluations. 585W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 586W

Ethiopia: Resettlement further Forest Law Enforcement Governance and Trade voluntary partnership agreements with Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for rainforest nations. [91669] International Development what information his Department holds on whether any UK aid to Ethiopia Mr O’Brien: Negotiations of Forest Law Enforcement has been spent on the villagization programme in the Governance and Trade (FLEGT) voluntary partnership Gambella region. [91852] agreements (VPA) have been concluded with Ghana, Cameroon, Republic of Congo, Central African Republic, Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Liberia and Indonesia. Formal negotiations on partnerships Development does not directly support the Government are under way with four countries: Malaysia, Vietnam, of Ethiopia’s villagisation programme, despite requests Gabon and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The forustodoso. European Union is also in preliminary discussions with Thailand, Lao PDR, Cote d’Ivoire, Guyana, Honduras, UK aid helps provide health and education services Colombia and Ecuador; and these may result in new and clean water to tens of millions of poor people negotiations this year and next. across Ethiopia. We are committed to providing basic services to people wherever they live. A small proportion of this nationwide-support is being provided in areas Freedom of Information that are included in the villagisation programme in Gambella. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether his Department Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for publishes on its website its response to each request it International Development if he will make receives under the Freedom of Information Act 2000; representations to the Ethiopian Government for it to whether the response is published in the same part of halt the villagisation programme in the Gambella its website on each occasion; and what the average time region. [91853] taken is between responding to a request and the information being made available on the website. Mr O’Brien: The villagisation programme has the [92126] potential to provide better services to people in rural areas. But only if it is well designed and managed. Mr Duncan: The Department for International Ministers and senior officials have raised our concerns Development has published a selection of information with senior members of the Ethiopian Government that released in response to Freedom of Information requests the programme is being poorly implemented. The Secretary on its website. All such information is published on a of State for International Development, my right hon. dedicated page. It is not possible to calculate the average Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell) time taken between responding to a request and the raised our concerns again when he visited Ethiopia last information being made available on the website. DFID week to attend the African Union summit does not retain information on the dates of changes made to this part of its website to allow such a calculation Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for to be made. International Development what assessment he has made of the villagisation programme in the Gambella India: Tuberculosis region; and if he will make a statement. [91854] Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State Mr O’Brien: The UK Government led an independent for International Development what assessment he has multi-agency mission to Gambella in February 2011. made of recent reports of an outbreak of totally drug The mission found no evidence of systemic or widespread resistant tuberculosis in India. [91824] human rights abuses or forced movement of communities. The mission did find that the villagisation programme Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK attaches great importance was poorly planned and implemented. For example, to the control of all forms of drug resistant tuberculosis new sites often did not have facilities such as schools (TB), which pose a significant public health hazard. We and health centres in place. Latest reports from partners fund the World Health Organisation (WHO) to provide indicate that new infrastructure is slowly being put in technical support to the Government of India on TB place and also that some people are being allowed to control. return to their places of origin. WHO is working closely with the Indian Government The Secretary of State for International Development, to better understand the clinical situation of affected my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield patients and give public health advice to protect patients, (Mr Mitchell), issued a public statement on the situation families, care-givers and the community. The local health after the release of Human Rights Watch report last authorities are mounting an effective public health response, week on villagisation in Gambella which confirmed including: that we are taking a close look at their findings and will (a) mandatory notification of all TB cases from labs and raise any concerns with the Ethiopian Government. providers, (b) finding and treating any known multi-drug resistant (MDR) EU External Trade: Rainforests and extremely drug resistant (XDR) TB cases, (c) immediate universal access to free MDR and XDR TB Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for diagnosis and treatment in Mumbai, International Development what assessment he has (d) strengthening basic TB control in the city, with a major made of recent progress by the EU in negotiating investment in systems, people, and infrastructure. 587W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 588W

Overseas Aid situation in the North and East of that country, or on access to those areas for independent human rights Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for monitors. The high commission in Colombo, however, International Development how much funding his regularly meets with the Sri Lankan Government to Department has provided to the overseas territories of discuss a range of human rights issues including access other countries in each of the last 10 years. [92052] for monitors.

Mr Duncan: The Department for International Sri Lanka: Politics and Government Development (DFID) provides no bilateral funding to overseas territories of other countries. However, DFID Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for provides the United Kingdom’s contribution to the International Development what recent assessment he European Development Fund (EDF). The EDF provides has made of the post-conflict humanitarian situation development support to African, Caribbean and Pacific in Sri Lanka; and whether he has discussed with the Sri states as well as to EU member states’ overseas countries Lankan government any proposals to improve the and territories, including British overseas territories. situation. [92573] Each EDF agreement provides funding over a four or five year period. Mr Duncan: The UK continues to have concerns EDF allocations to all EU member states’ overseas about human rights in Sri Lanka, including disappearances countries and territories since 1998, including the UK’s and extra-judicial killings, arbitrary arrests and restrictions contribution to these allocations, is set out as follows: on free expression. Ministers at the Department for International Development have not held discussions £ million with the Sri Lankan Government. Ministers in the UK’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office and our high Period of approximate commission in Colombo continue to raise the matter allocation Contribution contribution with the Sri Lankan Government. EDF 8 1998 to 2003 165 21 EDF 9 2003 to 2007 175 22 Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for EDF10 2008 to 2013 285 42 International Development what (a) assessment he has made of and (b) discussions he has had with the Sri Overseas Territories: Business Lankan government on food security and shelter for people from the North and East of that country. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for [92576] International Development what support his Department gives to small businesses in British Mr Duncan: The United Nations High Commission Overseas Territories. [92013] for Refugees (UNHCR) is one of the main providers of humanitarian assistance in Sri Lanka. Its shelter grant Mr Duncan: Providing support to small business project continues to help people from the North and development is a key element of the Department for East restart their lives; including through livelihoods International Development’s (DFID) assistance, to British support. Overseas Territories that are in receipt of financial aid. Ministers at the Department for International These businesses are a priority for the aid programme Development have not had any recent discussions with because they are critical to increasing the role of the the Sri Lankan Government on food security and shelter private sector in driving economic growth. This is especially for people from the North and East of that country, but important for Montserrat and St. Helena, where dependence the high commission in Colombo has regular discussions on UK aid transfers is greatest. with the World Food Programme about the situation in This year, DFID is providing £500,000 to the St. Sri Lanka and continues to raise the importance of Helena Development Agency so that it can support new ensuring internally displaced people are living in adequate business development on the island. In addition, we are conditions. providing support to tourism development activities to get the island ready for the airport which is scheduled to Tanzania: Radar open in late 2015. In Montserrat, we are providing around £700,000 this year to help small businesses Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for secure access to finance to assist their businesses in International Development what assistance BAe tourism and other key sectors. Systems has sought from his Department on the oversight of the £29.5 million the company was Sri Lanka: Human Rights required to pay to the government of Tanzania following its conviction of financial offences connected Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for with the sale of a radar system to Tanzania; when he International Development whether he has had any expects the payment to be made; and whether BAE discussions with the Sri Lankan government on (a) the Systems will pay interest earned on the sum over the human rights situation in the North and East of that period since the court ordered the payment to be made. country and (b) access to those areas for independent [92405] human rights monitors. [92572] Mr O’Brien: BAe Systems have requested the Mr Duncan: Ministers at the Department for Department for International Development’s (DFID) International Development have not had any discussions assistance to work with the Government of Tanzania to with the Sri Lankan Government on the human rights finalise the details on the specific use of the funds and 589W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 590W ensure the appropriate procurement, monitoring, reporting increased. Nonetheless, 15 out of 16 first-line TB medicines and audit arrangements are in place. At DFID’s suggestion, have shown reduced or maintained prices from 2009 BAe Systems will be party to the Memorandum of and as more cases are detected, the size of the second-line Understanding (MoU) governing these arrangements, market will increase, making it more attractive to generic together with the Government of Tanzania, DFID and manufacturers. The addition of four new quality generic the UK’s Serious Fraud Office. suppliers of existing MDR-TB medicines is already The MoU and annexes is close to being finalised and improving the sustainability of the market for these is expected to be signed in February. Under the provisions medicines. Any movements in prices will be reported by of the MoU, the payment must be made within 14 banking UNITAID in the coming months once the data are days of signature by all parties and will include the collected and verified. interest accrued on the sum before it is transferred by World Bank BAe Systems. Third Sector Mr McCann: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what discussions he has had with the World Bank on the World Development Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Report 2013 on jobs. [92222] International Development what steps he has taken to ensure Compact compliance in determining the future Mr O’Brien: In the UK’s statement to the 2011 of his Department’s relationship with the educational Annual Meeting of the Board of Governors of the charity Tide. [92194] World Bank, the Secretary of State for International Development, my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell), made clear that we Development’s (DFID) funding relationship with the welcome the planned World Development Report 2013 educational charity TIDE ended in August 2010 following on jobs. Jobs are the lynch-pin in translating economic the findings of the 2009 “Review of building support growth into effective poverty reduction. for development through the education system”completed We have encouraged the World Bank to deliver a by PricewaterhouseCoopers. The process to arrive at a report that is built on solid evidence and analysis and decision to terminate this funding relationship, and its that provides very clear policy-options for stimulating implementation, were based on the guidance in the job-creation, not least for poor women and in fragile Third Sector Compact. All recommendations of the states. Officials have been instructed to continue technical 2009 review, including the proposal to terminate consultations with the bank over the coming months to the “Enabling Effective Support” programme (through this effect. which TIDE received DFID funding) were subject to three months consultation prior to the decision to terminate the programme. The findings of this consultation, together with the decision to terminate the programme were DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER published on the DFID website on 18 January 2010. All British Constitution projects were given a seven month grace period to complete activities prior to the withdrawal. Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Deputy Prime Tuberculosis: Drugs Minister whether a commission on the UK’s constitutional future was discussed by delegates at the most recent meetings of the (a) British-Irish Council Mr Virendra Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State and (b) Joint Ministerial Council. [92549] for International Development what information his Department holds on progress made by UNITAID to The Deputy Prime Minister: No such commission (a) triple access to rapid tests for multi-drug resistant was discussed at the most recent meetings of either the tuberculosis and (b) significantly reduce the price of British-Irish Council or the Joint Ministerial Council. drug-resistant tuberculosis medicines. [92135] The published communiqués for both meetings set out details of the matters discussed. These can be found Mr O’Brien: UNITAID is having a positive impact at: on markets for TB drugs, including for multi drug http://www.britishirishcouncil.org/communiqu%C3%A9s/ resistant tuberculosis (MDR-TB). With UNITAID communiqu%C3%A9-17th-bic-summit-dublin funding, new laboratory infrastructure has been established and in 18 countries. 10 of these are routinely diagnosing MDR-TB. Using state-of-the-art tests provided through http://www.number10.gov.uk/news/joint-ministerial- UNITAID’s support. We expect countries to have detected committee-%E2%80%93-communique approximately 12,000 MDR-TB cases by the end of 2011 compared with only 2,300 MDR-TB cases notified by these same countries in 2008. TREASURY To provide faster treatment and stop the spread of Bank of Ireland MDR-TB, UNITAID supports a Strategic Rotating Stockpile (SRS) of 5,800 patient treatments. Treatment Ian Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer delivery time for urgent orders has been reduced from whether his Department has had any discussions with over 100 days to less than 30 with SRS. the Financial Services Authority on the interests of But the price of anti-TB medicines remains high, Bank of Ireland bondholders in Unsecured Perpetual especially for MDR-TB. The costs of active pharmaceutical Subordinated Bonds originally issued by the Bristol ingredients and oil for the manufacturing process have and West Building Society. [79334] 591W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 592W

Mr Hoban [holding answer 8 November 2011]: Treasury Details of other member states’ contributions can be Ministers and officials meet senior members of the found in the European Commission’s annual EU Budget Financial Services Authority on a regular basis to discuss Financial Reports. The most recent report was published a wide range of economic and financial issues. As was in October 2011 the case with previous Administrations, it is not the http://ec.europa.eu/budget/library/biblio/publications/2010/ Government’s practice to provide details of such meetings. fin_report/fin_report_10_en.pdf

Business: Disclosure of Information Excise Duties: Beer

Ian Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Bob Stewart: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what his policy is on project-by-project reporting of what recent assessment he has made of the effect on the contracts between governments and extractive industry brewing industry of the rate of beer duty. [92216] companies; [92137] (2) what recent discussions he has had with his Miss Chloe Smith: HM Revenue and Customs estimate counterparts in other EU member states on financial the effects of changes in duty on prices and, from there, transparency in corporate dealings. [92138] the overall demand effects. These results are published in the following technical paper: Mr Gauke: As the Prime Minister and the Chancellor http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/alcohol-consumption- of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for uk.pdf Tatton (Mr Osborne), have made clear, the UK is In addition the new high and low strength Beer Duty pressing for requirements to be placed on EU extractives rates introduced in October 2011 are likely to result in a companies to disclose the payments they make to foreign move to produce and consume lower strength beers. governments. EU discussions on this subject are ongoing The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. and officials are engaging with the European Commission Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), keeps all and EU member states on this issue. taxes under review along Budget timelines.

Child Care Tax Credit Financial Service Authority

Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Stephen Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many women he estimates will leave Exchequer how many fines have been levied by the employment as a result of child care support being Financial Services Authority in each of the last five reduced from 80 to 70 per cent. of cost. [91190] years. [92412]

Mr Gauke [holding answer 25 January 2012]: The Mr Hoban: This is a matter for the Financial Services information requested is not available. Authority (FSA), whose day-to-day operations are independent of Government. I have asked the FSA to Community Development Tax Relief write to the hon. Member on the issue he raises. A copy of the response will be placed in the Library of the Mr Thomas: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer House. pursuant to the answer of 23 January 2012, Official Report, column 33W, on community development tax Individual Savings Accounts relief, what assessment he has made of the ways in which the Community Investment Tax Relief is not as Duncan Hames: To ask the Chancellor of the effective as it could be; and if he will make a statement. Exchequer what the individual annual limit on [92506] investments in Individual Savings Accounts was in each tax year since their introduction. [92949] Mr Gauke: The Government are in the process of informally consulting on Community Investment Tax Mr Hoban: The annual subscription limits of Individual Relief. Savings Accounts for each tax year since their introduction in 1999 are published in Table 1 of the HMRC ISA EU Budget: Contributions Statistics, which can be found at the following link: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/isa/ISA_Statistics- Mr Dodds: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer November_2011.pdf whether he has made an assessment of the net contribution of each (a) nation and (b) region to the National Insurance: Complaints EU Budget in each of the last five years. [92808] Mike Crockart: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Hoban: Details of the UK contributions to the Exchequer how many complaints HM Revenue and EU budget, including net contributions, are published Customs has received in respect of duplicate national in the annual European Union Finances documents. insurance numbers given in the last five years; and how The most recent of these were published in December many of these cases resulted in (a) the wrong tax code 2011, presenting figures from 2005 to 2011, and it is being given, (b) arrears being due from affected available on HM Treasury’s public website individuals and (c) refunds being due to affected http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/int_eu_statefraud.htm individuals. [92521] 593W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 594W

Mr Gauke: The NI number is unique to one individual. relocate with their work to The Crescent Centre, Temple HMRC and DWP have a robust set of processes in Back, Bristol. Enquiry Centre services will remain in place to ensure duplicate NI numbers are not incorrectly the locality. allocated to individuals. NI identities may become confused if two or more Revenue and Customs: Closures people end up using the same NI number. However, where confusion is identified action is promptly taken Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the to establish the reason for the confusion and to identify Exchequer what criteria he took into account in the true owner. determining the tax offices for closure before 2015. It would require a manually intensive trawl and be [92933] disproportionately expensive to identify the number of complaints received in HMRC over the last five years Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) from individuals whose NI identity may have been business planning determines the requirements for confused, subsequently resulting in HMRC issuing incorrect accommodation during the spending review (SR) period. tax codes, billing or payments. This includes projected reductions in staffing levels over the SR period, where HMRC lines of business have indicated they do not want to retain a presence, where Older People: Finance staff numbers are too low for the office to be cost effective or where HMRC can take advantage of Paul Maynard: To ask the Chancellor of the forthcoming lease breaks. When any offices are proposed Exchequer what proportion of gross national income is for closure, feasibility and equality impact assessment spent on services for the elderly. [92096] work is undertaken before a final decision is made. This includes one-to-one meetings between staff and their Mr Hoban: Many public services are shared across managers to ensure that their personal circumstances groups, for example expenditure on roads. It is therefore are taken into account; analysis of equality data to not possible to provide a clear split between the proportion highlight areas of risk or significant impact; and estates of national income spent on any particular age group. work to consider the planning and implementation However, the Office for National Statistics publish an aspects of closure. allocation of some public services to households in ‘The Effect of Taxes and Benefits on Household Income, Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services 2009-10’. This includes an analysis of certain benefits in kind for non-retired and retired households for expenditure Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Chancellor of the in 2009-10. Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect on the proportion of calls answered of reductions in PAYE staffing at HM Revenue and Customs. [92644]

Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: HMRC is fully committed to improving Exchequer how many First Tier Tax Tribunal cases service for customers. The percentage of call attempts have been brought against HM Revenue and Customs handled by its contact centres April to December 2011 in respect of penalty charges for late receipt of P35 has risen to 74% compared to just 44% during the same returns; in how many of these tribunals the appellant period last year. was successful; and what cost was incurred to the HMRC plans to continue to improve its level of public purse in legal and administrative costs for these service over the 2010 spending review period. tribunals. [92947] Alex Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Gauke: HMRC’s records show that the First-tier Exchequer (1) what level of access to HM Revenue and Tribunal received 154 appeals against P35 penalties in Customs’ tax credit computer system staff employed 2010-11 and decided 82. The appellant was wholly or by Teleperformance at the Bathgate contact centre will partially successful in 22 cases (27%). have; [92385] Taxpayers can ask the independent tax tribunals to (2) what level of access to HM Revenue and hear their appeal where they consider that HMRC has Customs’ tax credit computer system staff employed made an incorrect decision. by Sitel at the Lillyhall contact centre will have; [92386] The information relating to cost is not available. (3) how many tax credit claimants’ personal details employees of Teleperformance will have access to Revenue and Customs: Bristol under the terms of HM Revenue and Customs’ contract with Teleperformance to provide call handling Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the services at the Bathgate contact centre; [92387] Exchequer which tax office will take over the work of (4) how many tax credit claimants’ personal details the Bristol office following its closure. [92934] employees of Sitel will have access to under the terms of HM Revenue and Customs’ contract with Sitel to Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) provide call handling services at the Lillyhall contact currently has four offices in Bristol. On 25 January centre. [92388] HMRC confirmed that Norfolk House, Bristol will close during the 2013-14 financial year. This follows Mr Gauke: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I feasibility work which considered the impact of closure gave to the hon. Member for Livingston (Graeme Morrice) on staff and the business. The intention is for staff to on 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 70W. 595W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 596W

Seized Articles On 25 November 2011, the Government announced an ambitious programme for tackling youth unemployment. Martin Horwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Starting in spring, the Youth Contract will deliver: Exchequer what powers the Government has to seize an additional 250,000 work experience or sector based work shipments of strategic goods passing through UK academy places for every unemployed 18 to 24-year-old; ports where they are bound for (a) embargoed and (b) more Jobcentre Plus support for 18 to 24-year-olds, including non-embargoed destinations. [92805] extra advisor time and a careers interview from the National Careers Service and weekly, rather than fortnightly, signing; Mr Gauke: Enforcement of strategic export controls a total of 160,000 wage incentive places (at £2,275 each) to make it easier for employers to take on young people. This has is the responsibility of HM Revenue and Customs and been welcomed by the CBI and is more generous than their the UK Border Agency. The powers to seize shipments proposal of incentive payments of £1,500; of strategic goods are contained in the Customs and additional funding to support the growth of 16-24 apprenticeships, Excise Management Act 1979. Section 68 of that Act ensuring the funding for at least 40,000 incentive payments (at makes it an offence to export or bring to a place of £1,500 each) for employers next year to raise demand for 16-24 export any goods the exportation of which would be apprenticeships; and contrary to any prohibition or restriction in force; a new £50 million a year programme for those 16 and 17-year-olds contravention of section 68 of the Customs and Excise not in employment, education or training to get them learning, on Management Act 1979 renders the goods liable to forfeiture. an apprenticeship or in a job with training. Officers of HM Revenue and Customs and UK Border Tax Collection Agency can seize the goods under section 139 of the same Act. The same powers apply for both embargoed and non-embargoed destinations. Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the Martin Horwood: To ask the Chancellor of the potential effects of the closure of HM Revenue and Exchequer what guidance his Department issues on the Customs offices on the collection of tax revenues. circumstances in which shipments of strategic goods [92932] identified as destined for an embargoed destination may be released when passing through UK ports. Mr Gauke: To meet the efficiencies required by the [92806] spending review (SR) settlement, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) is making changes to the way it delivers its business objectives. By 2015 it will be a Mr Gauke: HMRC has internal guidance in place for smaller, highly skilled department working across fewer HMRC and UKBA staff dealing with strategic exports sites with an increased focus on compliance. to both embargoed and non-embargoed destinations. The guidance is that it is normally appropriate to HMRC is committed to bringing in an additional immediately seize unlicensed strategic goods once it has £7 billion a year by 2014-15 and this is being achieved been established that goods require an export licence or by the expansion and transformation of compliance are otherwise in breach of sanctions or embargoes. activity across the country. Enforcement and Compliance is expected to increase its staff by 2,500 between 2011 Strategic goods destined for an embargoed destination and 2015. This will take place against a background of would normally only be released for export on production an overall reduction in HMRC numbers and offices of an export licence issued by the Secretary of State for and the majority of new posts will be filled by the Department of Business, Innovation, and Skills. internal redeployment from business areas which are Strategic goods destined for embargoed destinations contracting. would only be released without a licence where the goods were not subject to control or where a legal The office closures occurring during the SR period to exemption existed. 2015 reflect the fact that there will be 10,000 fewer staff and HMRC can make more efficient use of space across its entire estate and make savings. Tax Allowances: Unemployment

Jim Shannon: To ask the Chancellor of the ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Exchequer whether he has had discussions with the CBI on its proposal to introduce a tax incentive young Carbon Trust Britain credit for firms taking on unemployed people aged 16 to 24; and if he will introduce such a tax Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for incentive. [92336] Energy and Climate Change whether he has made an assessment of the economic value to the Carbon Trust Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers and officials have of its branding. [91775] meetings with a wide variety of organisations and individuals in the public and private sectors as part of Gregory Barker: The Department has not made an the process of policy development and delivery. As was assessment of the economic value to the Carbon Trust the case with previous Administrations, it is not the of its branding. Government’s practice to provide details of all such However, under the terms and conditions of DECC’s meetings. grant to the Carbon Trust, a private company limited A list of ministerial meetings with external organisations by guarantee, the trust must comply with European is published quarterly on the HM Treasury website: state aid rules and ensure that use of grant does not http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm unlawfully subsidise any. commercial activity. 597W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 598W

Departmental Training Total number of staff attending—1800 Average cost per head—£40.50 Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Away days are an investment by teams in planning, Energy and Climate Change how many away days his improving performance or enhancing skills and business Department has held since May 2010; and what the relationships. cost was of each event. [92943] The change of environment and the time spent together without distractions allows teams to focus on their Gregory Barker: We have interpreted away day to challenges. include team and group away days and requested replies While facilitators are not always used, they provide as such: structure and purpose to the day. They are used very Total number of away days—42 successfully in the private and public sector as a productive Total cost of away days—£72,801 means of meeting a team’s objectives.

Number of staff Event date Event title/function Event venue attended Event costs (£)

15 June 2010 and 5 Finance away days— Business planning BIS Conference Centre, 130 2320 November 2010 Victoria Street, SW1 25 June 2010 CESA (Team 1) away day Reading Uni 10 175 14 July 2010 International Energy and Climate Change (IECC)— London Wetlands Centre, 105 7,055.58 group away day Barnes, London 29 July 2010 IECC Senior Leadership Away Day—to strengthen the Coin Street Community 10 3,759.48 senior leadership team, facilitated by an executive Building, London coach and including the hire of facilities. 5 August 2010 Energy Markets and Infrastructure (EMI) Directors Commonwealth Club, 12 478.03 Business Planning Meeting Northumberland Avenue 10 August 2010 CESA (Team 2) away day Mothers Union 8 403.68 27 September 2010 Science and Innovation Group—team building National Physical Laboratory 41 838.62 4 October 2010 EMI SCS event to discuss EMI objectives and the year Institute of Government, 30 803.75 ahead and CSR/addressing staff issues Carlton Gardens, SW1 8 October 2010 EMI All staff (London) event—to understand EMI BIS Conference Centre 225 2,575 objectives, update on people plan and discuss CSR concerns 15 December 2010 EMI Directors business planning meeting Commonwealth Club, 13 767.25 Northumberland Avenue, SW1 27 January 2011 Strategy directorate away day Fulham Craven cottage 30 1,304 meeting room 16 February 2011 Strategic analysis volunteering day London Wildlife Trust, 22 1,276 Camley Street National Park, 12 Camley Street, London N1 4PW 16 March 2011 Green deal teams all staff event Civil Services Sports and 46 450 Leisure Centre 18 March 2011 Coal liabilities unit (CLU) away day (EDU Directorate) Dexter House 2 Royal Mint 20 1,200 Court Tower Hill 14 April 2011 OCCS staff away day BIS Conference Centre 70 810 18 April 2011 Finance team away day One Great George Street 45 2,503.50 9 May 2011 Planning and performance away day BIS Conference Centre 15 334.50 23 May 2011 DECC Legal offsite event Coin Street Neighbourhood 45 4,517.40 Centre, London SE1 9NH 23 May 2011 Commercial team away day Virtual Office Group 8 346.80 16 June 2011 Feed-in tariffs away day Coventry 8 3500 26 June 2011 EMN team leaders away day Wallacespace 2 Dryden Street, 16 1,286.40 London WC2E 9NA 31 August 2011 ICC away day St Martins in the Field 45 1,132.25 1 September 2011 Press Office and Ecomms teams away day Wallacespace, 2 Dryden 13 1,148 Street, London WC2E 9NA 12 September 2011 L and D board away day Broadway House 12 512 28 September 2011 NDSD away day Old Admiralty 40 347.40 29 September 2011 Energy Markets and Infrastructure (EMI) directors The Royal Society, Carlton 12 1,891 event to discuss priorities and risks for year head and House Terrace, London SW1 working better as a team and across DECC 4 October 2011 EMI SCS Event to prepare for all staff event on 7 Institute for Government, 29 747.00 October 2011—discuss EMI objectives and priorities Carlton Gardens, London , for the year ahead and update on the EMI people plan SW1 7 October 2011 EMI all staff (London) event—To explain EMI BIS Conference Centre 4250 2,431.25 priorities and objectives for the year ahead and update on the EMI people plan 7 October 2011 Smart Meters programme BIS Conference Centre 80-90 2,698 21 October 2011 SEG away day ETC Venue 150 9,000 26 October 2011 EMN team leaders away day Wallacespace, 2 Dryden 11 1,082.40 Street, London WC2E 9NA 599W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 600W

Number of staff Event date Event title/function Event venue attended Event costs (£)

4 November 2011 ICCEE Group senior leadership forum post DECC Devonport House Hotel 8 3,900 restructure 9 November 2011 Energy Markets and Infrastructure (EMI) directors The Royal Society, Carlton 14 688.00 business planning meeting House Terrace, London SW1 14 November 2011 Heat and industry away day St Martins in the Field 30-50 2,994 17 November 2011 Offshore inspectorate planning event 210 Bistro Business Centre 20 1,248 29 November 2011 Future electricity networks away day National Grid, Wokingham 14 330.88 30 November 2011 Energy economics analysis away day Eastbury House, London 20 290.58 15 December 2011 Finance team away day One Great George Street 35 1,215.60 17 January 2012 EMM all staff away day One Drummond Gate, 95 6,802 Victoria, London, SW1V 2QQ 18/01/12 Away session for programme support and delivery team Southwark Cathedral 18 576 in green deal directorate Conference Centre 19 January 2012 Office for Nuclear Development away day Thistle Hotel Westminster 450 2,062 1 30 At each. 2 For both. 3 Travel only 4 Approximate.

Departmental Work Experience and (b) the UK were in fuel poverty (i) in each year since 2000 and (ii) on the latest date for which Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for information is available. [91702] Energy and Climate Change what work experience or traineeship schemes his Department offers to minority Gregory Barker: Fuel poverty is a devolved measurement groups. [92754] and each country of the UK is responsible for measuring the number of fuel poor households in their own country. Gregory Barker: DECC participates in the “Whitehall The method for estimating whether a householder is a Internship”programme which offers placements to people pensioner differs between countries. The following tables including college students and under graduates from show the number of fuel poor households (in thousands) underrepresented groups including black, Asian and containing a pensioner in each year since 2000 for minority ethnic communities. So far we have had three which they have been measured. Fuel poverty figures placements for 16 to 18-year-olds (and will be taking for England for 2010 will be published in May 2012. the same number again this year) and in addition we Figures for Wales and Northern Ireland are not produced will be offering two graduate and undergraduate age every year, so it is not possible to produce a consistent placements this summer (2012). UK based estimate. The 2010 figures for Scotland were We have also offered two, week long, placements for based on fuel prices at the time. Fuel prices have since school age (under 16) through the Access Project in increased. 2011 which aims to improve disadvantaged students’ Number of pensioner households in fuel poverty chances of gaining places at “Russell Group” universities. Thousand Environmental Transformation Fund Northern England Scotland Wales Ireland Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010 n/a 357 n/a n/a Energy and Climate Change what proportion of the 2009 2,045 438 n/a 149 long-term finance from the Environmental 2008 1,720 344 135 n/a Transformation Fund for developing countries was 2007 1,462 361 n/a n/a delivered through (a) his Department, (b) non- 2006 1,285 324 n/a 115 governmental organisations and (c) multilateral 2005 794 224 n/a n/a agencies between 2008-09 and 2010-11. [92522] 2004 604 n/a 54 78 2003 634 n/a n/a n/a Gregory Barker: The International Window of the 2002 n/a n/a n/a n/a Environmental Transformation Fund provided £800 million 2001 1,058 n/a n/a 82 of international climate finance for developing 2000 n/a n/a n/a n/a countries between 2008-09 and 2010-11. £400 million was provided from DECC’s budget and £400 million Percentage of pensioner households in fuel poverty from DFID. All of the finance was delivered through Percentage multilateral agencies: £735 million to the Climate Northern Investment Funds; £50 million to the Congo Basin England Scotland Wales Ireland Forest Fund; and £15 million to the Forest Carbon 2010 n/a 48 n/a n/a Partnership Facility. 2009 26 57 n/a 62 Fuel Poverty 2008 22 46 42 n/a 2007 18 51 n/a n/a 2006 17 44 n/a 47 Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005 11 30 n/a n/a Energy and Climate Change how many and what 2004 8 n/a 18 38 proportion of pensioner households in (a) Scotland 601W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 602W

Percentage of pensioner households in fuel poverty Gregory Barker: We estimate that the Government Percentage have incurred costs of approximately £66,400 to date; Northern this includes the cost of approximately £58,000 up to England Scotland Wales Ireland the point of judgment in the High Court and a further 2003 9 n/a n/a n/a £8,400 to include the recent hearing in the Court of 2002 n/a n/a n/a n/a Appeal. 2001 15 n/a n/a 37 If the Supreme Court agrees to hear our case then we 2000 n/a n/a n/a n/a will incur more costs, but it is not possible to estimate this cost at this stage. If the Supreme Court ultimately Green Deal Scheme finds in our favour, we will expect to recover all or a substantial proportion of our costs. We are doing this to protect consumers bills, the annual cost to consumers Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy if we did not act could be £100 million per year—more and Climate Change what discussions he has had with than a 1000 times our legal costs to date. The cost of HM Treasury on the use of the £200 million additional defending ourselves in court pales in comparison to the funding recently announced to incentivise take-up of £1.5 billion additional lifetime cost if we do not act. the Green Deal. [92666] Warm Home Discount Scheme Gregory Barker: My officials are in the process of considering options for how to use the £200 million Dr Whitehead: To ask the Secretary of State for funding to incentivise uptake of the Green Deal, and Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made have had a number of discussions with HM Treasury on of the proportion of the warm homes discount budget this matter. under the terms of the control framework for his Department’s levy-funded spending that will be spent Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs on (a) assisting those receiving the guarantee credit element of pension credit and (b) low income and Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy vulnerable households at risk of fuel poverty in the and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 16 next 12 month period for which figures are available. January 2012, Official Report, column 622W, on solar [92379] power: feed-in tariffs, what his most recent estimate is of the cost to the public purse of legal proceedings Gregory Barker: The Warm Home Discount Scheme arising from the decision to reduce feed-in tariffs for impact assessment sets out the levels of expenditure to solar energy including costs relating to the appeal. assist households in or at risk of fuel poverty. These are [92769] shown in the following table by activity and scheme year. The next 12-month period for which figures are Gregory Barker: We estimate that the Government available is 2012-13. Those in receipt of pension credit have incurred costs of approximately £66,400 to date; guarantee credit only, or aged 80 and over and in receipt this includes the cost of the first hearing as well as the of both pension credit guarantee/savings credit will be recent appeal court hearing. eligible to receive a Core Group discount in 2012-13. These pension credit recipients and other low income If the Supreme Court agrees to hear our case then we and vulnerable households may also receive assistance will incur more costs, however, if the Supreme Court under the other elements of the scheme. then ultimately finds in our favour, we will expect to recover all or a substantial proportion of our costs. £ million We are doing this to protect consumers bills, the Expenditure type 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 annual cost to consumers if we did not act could be £100 million per year—more than a 1,000 times our Core Group 97 143 159 190 legal costs to date. The cost of defending ourselves in Broader Group 3 47 88 90 Total Legacy Spending 150 85 53 30 court pales in comparison to the £1.5 billion additional and Industry Initiatives lifetime cost if we do not act. Cap: Legacy Spending Cap 140 70 35 O Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Industry Initiatives Cap 30 30 30 30 Energy and Climate Change how much has been spent Total 250 275 300 310 from the public purse on legal proceedings in respect of his decision to reduce rates for solar feed-in tariffs; what the cost was for each (a) trial and (b) appeal stage of the legal process; and what estimate he has BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS made of the total overall cost of the proceedings relating to the (i) seeking permission to appeal to the Arms Trade: Libya Supreme Court and (ii) any subsequent appeal to the Supreme Court. [92939] Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) on what dates in Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for February 2012 overseas trade missions in support of Energy and Climate Change what the costs to the UK defence and security exports planned by the UK public purse has been of legal fees arising from each Trade and Investment Defence and Security stage of the judicial review proceedings relating to its Organisation to Libya are scheduled to take place; feed-in tariffs proposals. [92961] what the overall budget is for the mission; which 603W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 604W companies will be represented on the mission; whether goods and services. In Scotland, Scottish Development any companies have been sponsored by the International (SDI), funded by the Scottish Government, Government to attend; and what the cost to the public acts as our delivery partner for UKTI trade development purse was of sponsorship to each such company; services to Scottish based companies. To complement [92940] the UKTI offer, SDI additionally offers its own programme (2) if he will call for a robust Arms Trade treaty of services to Scottish businesses. during the overseas trade missions to Libya in All UKTI trade services are available to companies February 2012; and if he will make a statement. based in Scotland, apart from Passport to Export and [92960] Gateway to Global Growth, which are only available to companies based in England (SDI provides their own Mr Prisk: UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) Defence equivalent service locally). This includes access to UKTI’s & Security Organisation is organising a civil security overseas network in some 96 markets across the globe trade mission to Libya near the end of February 2012. and services such as the Overseas Market Introduction The Government are not sponsoring participating Service taken up by 238 Scottish businesses in 2011/12 companies and costs will be largely offset by contributions (to end December 2011), the Tradeshow Access Programme by companies. The list of companies attending is not with 115 grants to Scottish companies in 2011/12 (to yet finalised. end December 2011), the Export Marketing Research Securing a robust Arms Trade treaty is a priority for Scheme and the Export Communication Review. this Government. Ministers of the Department for Business, The Technology Strategy Board is the prime channel Innovation and Skills do not plan to accompany the through which the Government support business-led civil security trade mission to Libya. technology innovation and has a UK-wide remit under which Scottish companies are able to apply on equal Business: Scotland footing with applicants from other parts of the UK. The Technology Strategy Board provides support through Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for the following programmes: Business, Innovation and Skills what support his Collaborative research and development (R&D) projects—brings Department provided to small and medium-sized together businesses (from large corporate to micro companies) enterprises located in (a) Glasgow and (b) Scotland in and academic partners to undertake R&D projects from which the last two years. [92730] successful new products, processes and services can emerge. Projects range in value from £10,000 to over £100 million. Over 900 projects are currently being supported across the UK with a Mr Prisk: In addition to general measures to help combined business and Government investment of over £1 billion small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) across the (with just over half the funds committed by business). UK start up and grow, the Department for Business, Knowledge Transfer Networks—KTNs are over-arching national Innovation and Skill has introduced a number of specific networks which aim to improve the UK’s innovation performance schemes to provide direct support to SMEs. by increasing the breadth and depth of the knowledge transfer of The Enterprise Finance Guarantee (EFG) was technology into UK-based businesses. KTNs play a vital role in introduced to help SMEs access the finance they need making the necessary connections between the various players, helping industry to access knowledge and information central to to start up and grow their businesses. This is a targeted innovation growth. The Technology Strategy Board provides measure aimed at enabling additional lending to viable support for 15 KTNs, which have over 43,000 business members SMEs that have insufficient security or proven track (also have 14,000 non-business members). record with which to secure a normal commercial loan. Knowledge Transfer Partnerships—KTPs stimulate innovation We have announced continuation of the Enterprise through collaborative projects between business (including social Finance Guarantee (EFG) scheme until 2014/15 providing, enterprises) and the knowledge base by facilitating the transfer of subject to demand, over £2 billion of additional lending knowledge and the spread of technical and business skills through over the next four years and the scheme was extended in projects undertaken by high calibre, recently qualified, people January to include businesses with up to £44 million under the joint supervision of personnel from business and the knowledge base. There are currently over 900 live partnerships annual turnover, and to announce a number of new across the UK and approximately 75% of the partnerships involve accredited lenders. Since the launch of the scheme until SMEs. December 2011, 1,164 loans have been offered to SMEs Smart (previously known as Grant for R&D)—Smart offers in Scotland, totalling £162.78 million. funding to SMEs to engage in R&D projects from which successful A new Export Enterprise Finance Guarantee scheme new products, processes and services could emerge. Three types of (ExEFG) was also launched last year, providing up to grant are available: proof of market (up to £25,000 grant), proof £1 million of lending to support viable SME exporters of concept (up to £100,000 grant), and development of prototype who are unable to access a commercial loan. And to (up to £250,000 grant). address the equity gap for early stage innovative SMEs Small Business Research Initiative—SBRI aims to provide business opportunities for innovative companies while solving the with the highest growth potential, we have also announced needs of Government Departments. The programme is designed the continuation of the Government’s Enterprise Capital to enable public bodies to fund the development of technology Funds programme, increasing our commitment by which will meet their future needs or policy objectives. It provides £200 million over the next four years and providing for a structured approach and support for the procurement process more than £300 million of venture capital investment. when acquiring research and development work, particularly the As of 30 September 2011, 4% of investments (by number) vital engagement with industry. under this programme were in Scotland. Eureka—a pan-European initiative for promoting collaborative business-led R&D in fields of advanced technology, in a network With regard to support for exporting and trade encompassing 36 countries. The benefits for UK companies promotion, UK Trade and Investment (UKTI) has lead collaborating in Eureka include access to new technologies, the responsibility for the UK as a whole for the provision of sharing of costs and risks, reduced timescales and access to new support and assistance to new and existing exporters of overseas markets. 605W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 606W

Copyright: Education The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills contributed £150,000 towards the scheme from its inception Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for up to the end of 2010-11, and has contributed £88,000 Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has assessed so far in the 2011-12 financial year. the compliance of the proposal in the Hargreaves It is not possible to break down the total expenditure Review to extend education copyright exceptions with by year prior to 2010-11 up to the end of 2010-11 the European Directive on Copyright and Related without disproportionate work and associated cost. Rights in the Information Society 2001. [92159] Exports: Gulf States Mr Davey: The Government are clear that any modernisation to copyright law must be in compliance Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for with EU law as set out in the Information Society Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate his Directive 2001/29/EC. The Government are currently in Department made of the value of (a) goods and (b) consultation on copyright modernisation, until 21 March services exported to the Gulf from the UK in each of 2012 and welcome additional evidence from interested the last five years. [92673] parties. The consultation covers a wide range of copyright issues and sets out a large number of proposals, all of Mr Prisk: Using data published by the Office for which are accompanied by impact assessments on the National Statistics in Pink Book 2011, the estimated potential costs and benefits of various policy options. value of goods and services exported to the Gulf in the last five years for which data are available are shown in Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the table below. Data for 2011 is due for publication in Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions summer 2012. he has had with collecting societies on the proposals in UK exports to the Arabian Gulf 2006-10 the consultation on the Hargreaves Review to extend £ billion educational copyright exceptions; and what assessment 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 he has made of the likely effects on the licence fee income for writers and publishers of such exceptions. Goods 7.2 6.8 8.7 8.5 9.4 [92226] Services 5.1 5.2 6.0 6.5 7.1 Goods and 12.3 11.9 14.7 15.0 16.4 services Mr Davey: The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of Source: State for Business, Innovation and Skills my noble ONS Pink Book 2011, tables 9.4 and 9.5. Arabian Gulf is the sum of data for Friend the Baroness Wilcox, has regular discussions Iran, Saudi Arabia and Residual Gulf Arabian Countries. with the collecting societies on matters of interest to Financial Markets them. The Government’s copyright consultation, which runs from 14 December to 21 March 2012, will provide Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for an opportunity for interested organisations and individuals Business, Innovation and Skills if he will add the to contribute evidence and data to help inform more reasons for recent changes in carbon prices to the terms robust assessment and analysis of the options under of reference of Professor John Kay’s independent consideration. The initial impact assessment, published review of investment in UK equity markets. [92890] alongside the consultation, provides an assessment of the potential costs and benefits for writers and publishers Mr Davey: The Kay Review has wide terms of reference should changes to licensing schemes be made. The examining behaviour and trends within the entire investment Government welcome additional economic evidence from chain. The Government have no plans at this stage to interested parties of the likely effects of amending include reasons for changes in carbon pricing within educational copyright exceptions on the licence fee income this. for writers and publishers, to help refine its analysis. Foreign Investment in UK: Glasgow Education: Ex-servicemen Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his made of (a) the monetary value of foreign investment Department contributed towards tuition fees incurred in (i) Glasgow and (ii) Glasgow South West by service leavers when fees exceeded the sums constituency and (b) the number of jobs created as a provided by the enhanced learning credits scheme in consequence in each year since 2005. [91672] each year since 2007-08. [92532] Mr Prisk: UKTI do not collate statistics to that level Mr Willetts: The Enhanced Learning Credits Scheme for Scotland. Scottish Development International may commenced in the 2009/10 academic year, and the be better placed to respond on this matter. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) began making contributions to the scheme in the same Freedom of Information year. The scheme pays the course fees of service leavers Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaking higher education and further education Business, Innovation and Skills whether his courses, and contributions are made by the devolved Department publishes on its website its response to Administrations and by the Department for Education each request it receives under the Freedom of (as appropriate), as well as BIS and the Ministry of Information Act 2000; whether the response is Defence (MOD). published in the same part of its website on each 607W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 608W occasion; and what the average time taken is between to publish all responses currently on the website, but responding to a request and the information being aims to publish responses within a reasonable period of made available on the website. [92113] time.

Mr Davey: Responses to Freedom of Information Higher Education: Admissions (FOI) requests made to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills which are considered to be of wider public interest are published on the Department’s Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for website at Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of http://www.bis.gov.uk/site/foi/information-released university applications have come from each of the socio-economic classes A to D in each of the last five The Department does not publish a response to every years. [92000] FOI request it receives, but also maintains a Publication Scheme at Mr Willetts: The available information, provided by http://www.bis.gov.uk/site/foi/publication-scheme the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS), as a means of providing access to information which is is shown in the following table. The table uses the proactively published by the Department. POLAR2 (Participation of Local Areas), measure of The Department does not have available, without the applicants’ background. UCAS do not release applicant incurring disproportionate cost, the average time taken numbers by socio-economic classes A to D.

UK domiciled applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in the UK by POLAR2 adult higher education quintiles1 Year of entry 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

POLAR2 quintile 1 58,653 67,206 75,753 83,566 84,466 2 76,023 84,964 93,430 102,367 102,961 3 89,114 97,466 107,414 115,914 115,886 4 104,645 112,799 122,038 131,294 130,315 5 120,052 128,521 137,079 146,408 146,904

All known 448,487 490,956 535,714 579,549 580,532

Unknown 5,661 11,505 8,571 7,272 8,818

Grand Total 454,148 502,461 544,285 586,821 589,350

Percentage of known2 1 13.1 137 14.1 14.4 14.5 2 17.0 17.3 17.4 17.7 17.7 3 19.9 19.9 20.1 20.0 20.0 4 23.3 23.0 22.8 22.7 22.4 5 26.8 26.2 25.6 25.3 25.3 All 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 100.0 1 The POLAR2 (participation of local areas) measure was developed by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE). It ranks local areas by the proportion of adults who hold higher education qualifications, and splits them into quintiles, where quintile 1 includes the 20% of local areas with the lowest percentage of adults with Higher education (HE) qualifications, and quintile 5 includes the 20% of local areas with the highest percentage of adults with HE qualifications. 2 Components may not sum to totals because of rounding. Source: UCAS

Higher Education: Intellectual Property free use of IP where it is not being utilised by the universities which created it. One example is the approach Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for used by the Easy Access Innovation Partnership—a Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has collaboration between the University of Glasgow, King’s had with Universities UK on the development of an College London and the University of Bristol which easy access intellectual property (IP) scheme to permit makes unused university IP available free of charge, free use of IP where it is not being utilised by the through simple one-page agreements. universities which created it. [92732] IPO will use its findings to develop best practice guidance for all UK universities. Mr Davey: The Intellectual Property Office (IPO) leads on Intellectual Property (IP) questions within Government. It has a regular dialogue with UK universities Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for on the protection, development and exploitation of IP Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his assets. Department has made of the easy access intellectual IPO is gathering examples of different approaches to property scheme operated by the University of universities’ IP management, including those which enable Glasgow; and if he will make a statement. [92733] 609W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 610W

Mr Davey: The Intellectual Property Office (IPO) Total trade in goods and services leads on Intellectual Property (IP) questions within £ billion Government. The IPO welcomes innovative ideas for 2008 2009 2010 sharing Intellectual Property Assets in ways that stimulate UK exports of goods and 4.2 4.8 5.4 wider economic growth. services to Saudi Arabia IPO is supporting a collaboration between the University UK imports of goods and 1.3 0.9 1.0 of Glasgow, King’s College London and the University services from Saudi Arabia of Bristol in development of their ’Easy Access Innovation Total bilateral trade in goods 5.5 5.7 6.4 Partnership’ project. Easy Access IP provides a radical and services: UK and Saudi new approach to the licensing of university IP by making Arabia it available free of charge, through simple one-page Data for trade between England and Saudi Arabia is agreements. published by HM Revenue and Customs in Regional IPO will be making an assessment of the Easy Access Trade Statistics available via the following website: IP project once the period for which it provided support www.uktradeinfo.com has ended. IPO will take forward lessons learned and for goods trade only. Some trade cannot be allocated to continue to engage with stakeholders to improve a region, and therefore actual trade may be higher than management of IP and Knowledge Exchange in universities the published values: to deliver long term benefit to the UK economy and society. Trade in goods £ billion Immigrants: Pay 2008 2009 2010 England exports of goods to 2.0 2.2 2.6 Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Saudi Arabia Business, Innovation and Skills what recent estimate he England imports of goods 0.6 0.6 0.8 has made of the number of migrants in the UK from Saudi Arabia Total bilateral trade in 2.6 2.8 3.3 [92590] working for less than the minimum wage. goods: England and Saudi Arabia Mr Davey: Our policy is to ensure that all workers who are entitled to the national minimum wage (NMW)— Post Offices whether migrant or non-migrant—receive it. HM Revenue & Customs investigate all complaints made to them about underpayment of the NMW, as well as working Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, with other Government agencies, including the UK Innovation and Skills how much of the funding Borders Agency. Anyone who believes they are being allocated to the Post Office network will consist of underpaid should contact the Pay and Work Rights network subsidy. [92697] Helpline. Mr Davey: It is expected that just under half of the This Department does not hold the requested funding for the Post Office network to 2015 will be information. utilised as network subsidy.

Oil: Canada Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which services he expects to be Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for withdrawn from post offices operating under the Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has any proposed Post Office Local model. [92698] plans for UK Trade and Investment missions related to Canadian oil sands developments. [91805] Mr Davey: Any changes in the range of services available at post offices which move to the Post Office Mr Prisk: UK Trade and Investment has no plans to local operating model will be operational decisions for organise a trade mission to Canada related to oil sands Post Office Ltd. I have therefore asked Paula Vennells, developments. the managing director of the Post Office Ltd, to respond directly to the hon. Member and a copy of her reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. Overseas Trade: Saudi Arabia Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills when he proposes that his Business, Innovation and Skills what the monetary Department will hold consultations on its Post Office value was of Anglo-Saudi trade in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 network proposals. [92699] and (c) 2008. [91475] Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation Mr Prisk: Data published by the Office for National and Skills will not be holding consultations on the Statistics in their “Pink Book 2011” available on their arrangements for modernising and investing in the post website: office network. This programme will be undertaken by Post Office Ltd and participation by sub postmasters www.ons.gov.uk will be voluntary. Post Office Ltd has a code of practice shows the following value of trade between the United agreed with Consumer Focus covering the local consultation Kingdom and Saudi Arabia: and communication processes that are undertaken when 611W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 612W there are changes to the branches in the network and Technology and Innovation Centres this is currently being reviewed by the two organisations in the light of the forthcoming investment and Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for modernisation programme. Business, Innovation and Skills (1) where the Connected Digital Economy Catapult Centre will be Post Offices: Pay located; [92880] (2) whether he has appointed a leadership team for Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the Connected Digital Economy Catapult Centre. Innovation and Skills what proportion of the funding [92881] of the Post Office network is allocated to payments to retiring sub-postmasters. [92696] Mr Willetts: The decision to establish the Connected Digital Economy Catapult centre was announced on Mr Davey: Funding is in place to modernise and 26 January. During this year the Technology Strategy invest in the Post Office network but changes to the Board will be taking the steps to establish the centre operating model and ownership of individual branches and this will include confirmation of the scope, work on will take place within a voluntary programme. There is the detailed activities for the centre, the appointment of therefore no predetermined proportion of the funding the leadership team and making the decision on the allocated to that specific category of expenditure. location of the centre itself. Post Offices: Wrexham CABINET OFFICE Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what information his Charities: Registration Department holds on which post offices in Wrexham constituency Post Office Ltd plans to operate on the Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Local model. [92695] Office what assessment he has made of the effect of the number of charity registrations on the delivery of the Mr Davey: None. Decisions on which post office Big Society initiative. [92511] operating model is appropriate to individual branches are operational matters for Post Office Ltd. Mr Hurd: According to Charity Commission data the total number of registered charities has remained Public Houses relatively stable in recent years, being 160,515, 162,415 and 161,649 in 2009, 2010 and 2011 respectively. In Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010-11 (the last full year for which figures are available) Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions 5,589 new charities were registered. he has had with the Secretary of State for Communities Charities and other civil society organisations have and Local Government on (a) community pubs and an important part to play in the Big Society. While it (b) the introduction of a statutory code of practice for would be difficult to draw any firm conclusions from pubs. [92555] the data, it is encouraging to see new charities being established and registered. Mr Davey: On 16 June 2011 I discussed a range of Employment: Disability matters relating to public houses with the Minister for Communities and Pubs, my hon. Friend the Member Dan Jarvis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet for Bromley and Chislehurst (Robert Neill) at the Office how many disabled people were in paid work in Department for Communities and Local Government, (a) Barnsley, (b) South Yorkshire and (c) England including the potential introduction of a statutory code and Wales in the most recent period for which figures of practice. are available. [92937] Students: Fees and Charges Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for asked the authority to reply. Business, Innovation and Skills whether it is his policy Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: that a university student who has to defer his or her As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I degree course for medical reasons will be charged have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking tuition fees set at the level appertaining at the time of how many disabled people were in paid work in (a) Barnsley, (b) his or her original application. [92956] South Yorkshire and (c) England and Wales in the most recent period for which figures are available (92937). Mr Willetts: Students who resume a course that they The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles employment began in or before the 2011/12 academic year but had statistics for local areas from the Annual Population Survey suspended it (with the agreement of their university or (APS) following International Labour Organisation (ILO) definitions. college) for medical reasons will be charged for tuition Table 1 shows the number of people identifying themselves as under the same arrangements that applied to them disabled who were in employment and resident in (a) Barnsley, (b) when they began the course. South Yorkshire and (c) England and Wales, for the 12 month period ending in June 2011, from the APS, the most recent period The new tuition charge arrangements will apply to for which figures are available. those students who have accepted a place at university As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject for the 2011/12 academic year but have deferred starting to a margin of uncertainty. A guide to the quality of the estimates the course until 1 September 2012 or after. is given in the table. 613W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 614W

National and local area estimates for many labour market Percentage of households which are lone parent households with dependent statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant children in Poplar and Limehouse constituency, Tower Hamlets and the UK, count are available on the NOMIS website at: 2010 Area Percentage http://www.nomisweb.co.uk Table 1: Number of disabled1 people in employment resident in (a) Barnsley, (b) Tower Hamlets 7.5 South Yorkshire and (c) England and Wales, 12 months ending June 2011 UK 7.1 Thousand Note: Dependent children are those living with their parent(s) and either (a) aged England and Wales *3775 under 16, or (b) aged 16 to 18 in full-time education, excluding children aged 16 South Yorkshire *98 to 18 who have a spouse, partner or child living in the household. As with any sample survey, estimates from the Annual Population Barnsley ***17 Survey are subject to a margin of uncertainty. 1 People who are DDA disabled or have a work limiting disability. Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period as an indication of the quality of the estimates. See Guide to Quality as follows. Members: Correspondence Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie Mr Baron: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5% when the Minister for Political and Constitutional we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220. Reform plans to reply to the letters of 8 November and Key: *0=CV<5%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered precise 7 December 2011 from the hon. Member for Basildon **5=CV<10%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered reasonably and Billericay regarding a constituent, Mrs Ruocco- precise Daley. [90934] *** 10 = CV <20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered acceptable **** CV = 20%—Statistical Robustness: Estimates are considered too Mr Harper [holding answer 20 January 2012]: I replied unreliable for practical purposes to the hon. Member’s letters yesterday. CV = Coefficient of Variation Source: Annual Population Survey Septicaemia: Death Government Departments: Consultants Jim Shannon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many (a) men and (b) women have died Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet from septicaemia in England and Wales in each of the Office whether (a) KPMG and (b) other consultancy last three years for which figures are available. [92236] firms have supplied staff to Government departments without payment in each of the last five years. [92095] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Mr Hurd: During 2010-11 Cabinet Office renegotiated asked the authority to reply. contracts with a number of central Government’s large portfolio suppliers on behalf of the Crown. This Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: renegotiation resulted in Deloitte, KPMG, Ernst and As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I Young and PWC agreeing to forego some of their have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking normal payments as part of their contribution to the how many (a) men and (b) women have died from septicaemia in efficiency savings. We do not hold data on prior years. England and Wales in each of the last three years for which figures are available. (92236) Lone Parents Table 1 provides the number of deaths for males and females where septicaemia was the underlying cause, for the years 2008 to 2010 (the latest available year). Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Septicaemia is a condition which often develops in those with Office what proportion of households in (a) Poplar an existing serious illness. In these cases, septicaemia will be and Limehouse constituency, (b) Tower Hamlets and recorded on the death certificate as a condition that has contributed (c) the UK are single parent households. [92968] to a death, but it will not be the underlying cause. Table 2 shows the number of deaths where septicaemia was mentioned on the Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the death certificate, either as the underlying cause or as a contributory responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have factor. asked the authority to reply. The number of deaths registered in England and Wales each year by sex, age, cause, marital status and place of death are Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2012: published annually and are available here: As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-27475 what proportion of households in (a) Poplar and Limehouse constituency, (b) Tower Hamlets and (c) the UK are single parent households (92968). Table 1. Number of deaths where septicaemia was the underlying cause of death, England and Wales, 2008-101,2,3 The number and type of households in the UK can be estimated Deaths using the Annual Population Survey. The percentage of households 2008 2009 2010 which are lone parent households with at least one dependent child are provided. Male 981 996 938 Data are shown for Poplar and Limehouse constituency, the Female 1,236 1,284 1,245 London Borough of Tower Hamlets and the UK in 2010. 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). Deaths were included where the underlying cause was Percentage of households which are lone parent households with dependent Septicaemia (includes meningococcaemia, streptococcal septicaemia and other children in Poplar and Limehouse constituency, Tower Hamlets and the UK, septicaemia) ICD codes A39.2-A39.4, A40-A41. 2010 2 Figures include deaths of non-residents. Area Percentage 3 Figures are based on deaths registered in each calendar year. Source: Poplar and Limehouse 7.9 Office for National Statistics 615W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 616W

Table 2. Number of deaths where septicaemia was the underlying cause of death liaising with officials across central Government Departments or mentioned anywhere on the death certificate, England and Wales, 2008- on Compact related business, for example, recently OCS worked 1,2,3,4 10 with No. 10 and departmental business plan leads on the inclusion Deaths of the Compact as a cross departmental agenda item in the 2008 2009 2010 2012-13 business plan refresh. Business plans will be published in the spring. Male 11,697 11,648 11,244 Female 14,563 14,027 13,829 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). Deaths were included where Septicaemia was mentioned JUSTICE anywhere on the death certificate (includes meningococcaemia, streptococcal Trafficking Victim Support Scheme septicaemia and other septicaemia) ICD codes A39.2-A39.4, A40-A41. 2 Table 2 includes the deaths presented in table 1. 3 Figures include deaths of non-residents. 8. Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State 4 Figures are based on deaths registered in each calendar year. for Justice what recent representations he has received Source: on the Trafficking Victim Support Scheme; and if he Office for National Statistics will make a statement. [92480] Third Sector Nick Herbert: The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and learned Friend the Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), has received no Office if he will initiate a cross-government strategy to recent representations on the Trafficking Victim Support maximise the use of public sector assets to promote Scheme. Victim care remains fundamental to the community and social action; and if he will make a Government’s comprehensive approach to combating statement. [91350] human trafficking. National Offender Management Service Andrew Stunell: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Communities and Local 20. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Government. Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that the The Government are funding the Asset Transfer Unit National Offender Management Service is accountable to promote best practice across England and provide for the decisions it takes on offenders. [92492] advice and expertise on matters relating to asset transfer Mr Kenneth Clarke: NOMS is an agency of the to community ownership and management. The Unit Ministry of Justice and has responsibility on behalf of also managed the recently completed Advancing Assets the Secretary of State for Justice for commissioning for Communities demonstration programme which has prison and probation services in England and Wales supported the development of local asset transfer strategies, and directly managing offender management services policies and procedures aimed at communities taking including public sector prisons. over local authority assets, by providing tailored support to 92 local authority/community partnerships. A framework document sets out the arrangements for the governance, accountability, financing, staffing The new community rights contained in the Localism and operation of the agency and is agreed between the Act will give communities the opportunities to influence Secretary of State and its chief executive. The framework development in their areas, bid to buy local assets that document is approved by the Chief Secretary to the are important to them and bid to run local services Treasury, the right hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, differently and better. We are currently procuring for an Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander). expert delivery agent to deliver a three-year programme to support communities that want to take up these Domestic Violence Victim Support rights. In addition, through our work with 11 areas round 21. Hazel Blears: To ask the Secretary of State for the country on Capital and Assets Pathfinders, areas Justice what steps he is taking to support victims of have shown how a local joined up approach to public domestic violence in the criminal justice system. [92493] sector assets helps strengthen the sustainability of the Mr Djanogly: Since 2007-08 we have contributed just voluntary and community sector. This approach is over £9 million towards the funding of the Independent supported across Government Departments and is now Domestic Violence Advisor service to address the safety led by the sector. needs of victims. We are also providing nearly £4.7 million over the Mr Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet next three years through our Victim and Witness General Office what contribution his Department is making to Fund to fund 44 court-based independent domestic implementation of the Compact with the voluntary violence advisor (IDVA) positions. sector; and if he will make a statement. [92291] Community Sentences Mr Hurd: The Office for Civil Society (OCS) in the Cabinet Office is responsible for the Compact on behalf 22. Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for of Government. This responsibility includes: Justice what steps he is taking to increase the acting as the sponsor department for Compact Voice, (who act effectiveness of community sentences. [92494] as the voice of the voluntary sector on the Compact, with a network of over 2,300 members) including hosting regular governance Nick Herbert: We are taking action to strengthen meetings between the me and the Chair of Compact Voice to community sentences including making Community report on the effectiveness of the Compact. Payback more immediate and intensive and through hosting the Annual Compact Awards, recognising excellence in measures in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment Compact working and promoting best practice. of Offenders Bill. 617W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 618W

We have identified that we need to go further still and Community Orders will be consulting on reforms to ensure that community sentences effectively punish and rehabilitate offenders. Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many (a) men and (b) women were sent to prison Bill of Rights after breaching a community sentence in each year since 2000. [91840] 23. Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice when he expects the Commission on a Bill of Mr Blunt: The table shows the number of men and Rights to conclude its work and publish its final report. women received into prison for breach of a court order [92495] in each year from 2000 to 2009 (the most recent figures available). These figures include those imprisoned for Mr Kenneth Clarke: Under the Commission’s terms breach of a Community Order, and the range of community of reference, the Commission will report back to the sentences that it replaced, and of a Suspended Sentence Deputy Prime Minister and me by the end of 2012. Order. The number of breach receptions grew considerably Bribery Act 2010 after 2003, reflecting better enforcement and, from 2005, the effect of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which Mr Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice introduced the Community Order and Suspended Sentence what recent progress he has made towards Order. implementing the Bribery Act 2010; and if he will make a statement. [92629] Male Female 2000 2,334 248 Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Bribery Act 2010 was 2001 2,555 311 commenced on 1 July 2011 following extensive consultation 2002 3,367 461 on, and the publication in March 2011 of, guidance on the Act and bribery prevention procedures for 2003 4,736 693 businesses—to be found at: 2004 6,335 937 2005 7,084 958 http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/making-and-reviewing- 2006 8,601 1,093 the-law/bribery.htm 2007 11,129 1,303 Prosecution guidance was also published jointly by the 2008 12,613 1,447 Director of the Serious Fraud Office and the Director of Public Prosecutions—to be found at: 2009 10,418 1,052 http://www.sfo.gov.uk/bribery--corruption/bribery-act--- useful-links.aspx These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording The first prosecution and conviction under the Act system, are subject to possible errors with data entry was in November 2011. Since July 2011 a number of and processing. Government Departments and agencies including the Ministry of Justice, the Department of Business Innovation and Skills, United Kingdom Trade and Investment, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Attorney-General’s Criminal Proceedings: Costs Office, the Serious Fraud Office and the Crown Prosecution Service have continued to promote the effective Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice implementation of the Act through internal awareness what the average cost was of a case heard in a (a) raising and training and various outreach initiatives. Magistrates’ court and (b) Crown court in each year This work focuses in particular on engagement with the between 1997 and 2011. [91550] business community on the proportionate application of anti-bribery measures and the provision of information Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Court and Tribunal and assistance for UK businesses operating in or seeking Service, HMCTS, has no court cost statistics prior to to enter foreign markets—see for example: the creation of Her Majesty’s Court Service on 1 April http://www.business-anti-corruption.com/?L=0 2005. Since 2007-08 magistrates courts proceedings data and recorded by HMCTS is not directly comparable with the data previously recorded by the Office of Criminal http://www.ukti.gov.uk/export/howwehelp/ overseasbusinessrisk.html Justice Reform. As a result it is not possible to provide comparable average magistrates courts costs per case In my capacity as the Government’s International for 2005-06 and 2006-07. Anti-Corruption Champion I also raise the profile of the UK’s significant contribution to the international The average costs have been derived by dividing the anti-bribery consensus. I briefed the All-Party Parliamentary direct costs incurred by the courts in a financial year by Group on Anti-Corruption in November 2011 and I the number of hearings reported by the HMCTS will address delegates at the G20 Anti-Corruption Working performance database for the financial year in the case Group in February in London, which the UK is co-chairing of magistrates courts and the numbers of disposals and with Mexico. This broad range of initiatives will ensure orders made in the financial year in the case of the that the UK continues to be at the forefront of the Crown court. promotion of ethical business standards and will support The average costs of hearings in magistrates courts export led growth through helping to establish a level and disposals and orders made in Crown courts are as playing field for UK business in international commerce. follows: 619W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 620W

Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Justice whether he has given consideration to requiring Crown court Magistrates courts Government (a) departments and (b) agencies to 2005-06 1,639 n/a publish their responses to requests under the Freedom 2006-07 1,594 n/a of Information Act 2000 in a standardised and 2007-08 1,519 154 searchable format; and whether (i) he or (ii) the Public 2008-09 1,492 169 Sector Transparency Board has given consideration to 2009-10 1,488 174 publishing such responses centrally on the data.gov.uk 2010-11 1,441 168 website. [92436]

The costs relate to judicial remuneration allocated to Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice encourages the Crown courts and administration and court costs departments and agencies to publish information released incurred directly by the courts, excluding overheads and in response to Freedom of Information (FOI) requests depreciation. through the maintenance of up to date online disclosure logs. We support the Information Commissioner’s European Regulations on Civil Jurisdiction recommendation that disclosure logs should be made readily available. The Government are not currently Stephen Phillips: To ask the Secretary of State for considering requiring departments and agencies to publish Justice what representations he has made to the the responses to FOI requests in a particular format or European Commission on the extension to third state at a particular location. nationals of European regulations on civil jurisdiction. [91801] Members: Correspondence Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have made no formal representations to the European Commission on this Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for issue. However, I have made clear in discussions that the Justice when he plans to reply to the letter of Government are not aware of any problems caused by 24 November 2011 from the right hon. Member for the existing national rules on jurisdiction in such cases. Manchester, Gorton with regard to Ms C McCall. I am aware that our view is shared by the governments [90269] of several other member states. Mr Kenneth Clarke: There was no record of this letter Freedom of Information having been received. However, my office has now obtained a copy and the right hon. Member’s letter has been Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for transferred to the Department for Business, Innovation Justice whether his Department publishes on its and Skills as the responsible Department for the subject website its response to each request it receives under matter, for answer. the Freedom of Information Act 2000; whether the response is published in the same part of its website on Mr Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice each occasion; and what the average time taken is when he plans to respond to the letter of (a) 26 between responding to a request and the information October 2011 and (b) 28 November 2011 from the being made available on the website. [92116] hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay on the Traveller site at Dale Farm. [92261] Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice publishes responses to requests received under the Freedom of Mr Kenneth Clarke: I have now replied. Information Act 2000, where information has been disclosed under the Act. Responses are published on a Offenders: Mental Illness disclosure log on the Ministry of Justice website: http://www.justice.gov.uk/global/foi-requests/latest-moj- Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for disclosure-log.htm Justice pursuant to the answer of 17 January 2012, The Ministry of Justice does not record the average Official Report, columns 667-8W, on offenders: mental time taken to publish responses: the disclosure log is illness, if he will provide a breakdown of those crimes regularly updated with new content, usually on a monthly committed in each of the last three years. [92893] basis. Improvements are currently being made to the existing format of the disclosure log: from February of Mr Blunt: 90 restricted patients were reconvicted this year the content will be categorised by subject within two years of being discharged for the first time matter, making it more accessible. by the Mental Health Review Tribunal or with the consent of the Secretary of State between 1999 and Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007. The table gives details of their reconvictions. Justice what guidance his Department provides to These figures are the latest available and are derived other Government departments on how and when to from the dataset used to produce paper 3.1 in the publish responses to requests under the Freedom of Compendium of Reoffending Statistics and Analysis, Information Act 2000. [92169] published on 4 November 2010. Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice has issued Offence details for offenders released in each year guidance encouraging departments to publish information have been combined because in any single year the released in response to Freedom of Information requests number of patients discharged for the first time and through up to date online disclosure logs. There is no who went on to be reconvicted is small. Caution should recommended format or time limit for publishing be exercised when interpreting the reconviction figures information on a disclosure log. provided, which represent only those patients first 621W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 622W discharged and matched on the police national computer These figures are published quarterly in the Offender and therefore do not capture all patients discharged Management Statistics quarterly brief, available on the into the community in a given year or take into account Ministry of Justice website. recalls. These figures have been drawn from administrative Reconvictions by restricted patients1 discharged for the first time by the Mental IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Health Review Tribunal or with the consent of the Secretary of State between system, are subject to possible errors with data entry 1999 and 2007 and processing. Offence Number of offences

Violence 13 Prisons: Death Of which: Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Manslaughter 1 for Justice what steps the Government plans to take to Attempted murder 1 reduce the number of deaths in prisons. [91453] GBH 3 ABH 3 Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service Racially aggravated common assault 1 is committed to reducing the numbers of deaths in Possessing firearm or imitation firearm 1 custody. Each death is subject to an investigation and, Possession of offensive weapon 2 since 2004, these have been undertaken by the prisons Having an article with a blade or point 1 and probation ombudsman. Strenuous efforts are made Sexual 3 to learn from each death and improve our understanding Of which: and procedures for caring for prisoners. Rape of a female aged 16 or over 1 A new national Prison Service instruction is due to be Attempted rape of a female aged 16 or over 1 issued imminently which brings together the three existing Failure to notify police of home address 1 under Sex Offenders Act 1997 safer custody policies (covering suicide prevention and Burglary 23 self harm management, violence reduction and follow Robbery 12 up to deaths in custody) into one single overarching Theft and handling stolen goods 25 policy. The revised policy builds on several years of Of which: learning from the experience of prisoners, staff, investigators, Shoplifting 12 inspectors and others. Stealing from motor vehicles 1 A three-tier Ministerial Council on Deaths in Custody Stealing from the person of another 2 was set up in July 2008. The three tiers comprise a Stealing in a dwelling other than from 1 Ministerial Board, an Independent Advisory Panel (IAP) automatic machines and meters and a practitioner and stakeholder group, which supports Stealing not classified elsewhere 4 the work of the IAP. The shared purpose of the board Theft of motor vehicle 1 and the panel is to bring about a continued and sustained Receiving stolen goods 4 reduction in the number and rate of deaths in all forms Fraud and forgery 4 of state custody in England and Wales by actively Criminal damage 5 enabling cross-Government learning. Drug offences 21 Of which: Prisons: Private Sector Possession with intent to supply class A drug 2 Possession of class A drug 6 Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Possession of cannabis 11 what estimate he has made of changes to the budget of Possession of other class B drug 2 each privately-run prison in each of the next five years. Indictable motoring offences 1 [92515] Other indictable offences 10 Summary offences excluding motoring 53 Mr Blunt: Payments to the 12 prisons run by private- Summary motoring offences 31 sector companies under contract to the Ministry of Offences outside England and Wales 1 Justice are subject to a number of variables, including Breach offences 5 the number of prisoners held during the course of the Total 207 year. It is not possible to forecast the effect of those 1 90 restricted patients reconvicted within two years of being discharged. factors over a five-year period. Spending review 2010 agreed MOJ’s budget up to Prisoners’ Release 2014-15, however, detailed allocations are done on an annual basis. NOMS are in the process of allocating Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2012-13 budgets to individual prisons and will agree how many (a) men and (b) women given an this before the start of the financial year. The privately indeterminate sentence for public protection were run prisons are all subject to commercial contracts and released in (i) 2010 and (ii) 2011. [92561] any changes are subject to these contracts.

Mr Blunt: In 2010, 89 men and eight women serving Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 an indeterminate sentence for public protection (IPP) were released from prison establishments in England Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for and Wales. Annual figures for 2011 are not yet available, Justice how much was ordered to be confiscated under however between 1 January and 30 September 2011, the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 in each year since its 187 men and eight women serving an IPP were released enactment; and what proportion was collected in each from prison establishments in England and Wales. of those years. [91967] 623W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 624W

Mr Blunt: Data for confiscation orders is only held The Ministry of Justice is signed up to the Compact, from April 2005 and the results are in the following as are other Government Departments. Policies within table. the Department seek to be compliant with the principles The table records the value of confiscation orders of the Compact. This includes, for example, the procurement granted between 2005-06 and 2010-11, the amount policies used by the Department. remaining to collect and the amount recovered. A Following the publication of the National Audit Office percentage figure records the amount collected against report on implementation of the Compact in Departments, the confiscation orders imposed, during each financial the Ministry of Justice is considering what more could year. be done to improve the relationship with civil society organisations, and will reflect this in its updated business POCA Percentage plan in the spring. The Department will also support confiscation POCA collected of POCA order confiscation the action taken centrally by the Office for Civil Society to confiscation balance orders confiscation further embed the Compact. orders outstanding collected order granted (£) (£) (£) granted

2005-06 36,457,284 6,698,257 29,759,027 82 Work Capability Assessment: Appeals 2006-07 64,614,075 17,173,264 47,440,811 73 2007-08 134,980,670 70,761,955 64,218,715 48 2008-09 132,708,218 63,520,784 69,187,434 52 Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009-10 126,258,634 60,273,951 65,984,683 52 Justice how many staff were employed by the Tribunals 2010-11 194,028,523 116,881,709 77,146,814 40 Service to deal with appeals against the work capability Total 689,047,404 335,309,920 353,737,484 51 assessment in each month in 2011. [92428]

The above figures were taken from the Joint Asset Recovery Database (JARD) on 25 January 2012. Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against department for work and pensions decisions on entitlement to employment Public Sector: Procurement and support allowance (ESA) (decisions in which the work capability assessment is a key factor) rather than Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for appeals against work capability assessment decisions Justice what discussions he has had on the inclusion of themselves. private sector companies in receipt of public sector contracts within the provisions of the Freedom of It is not possible to identify how many staff deal specifically with ESA appeals. The table shows the Information Act 2000. [92155] number of staff employed in relation to the social security and child support (SSCS) tribunal (the lowest Mr Djanogly: We have considered the extension of level to which the figures can be broken down) as at the the Freedom of Information (FOI) Act to private companies end of each month between January 2011 and November in receipt of public sector contracts. We do not propose 2011 (the latest period for which published figures are to extend the FOI Act to such companies at present, available). The Tribunal hears appeals on a range of having struck a balance between our commitment to benefits, of which ESA is one. increasing transparency and that of reducing the regulatory burden on business. Of the 1,014 staff in post as at 30 November 2011, However, we consider that there is a strong argument 814 were permanent staff and 200 staff were on for increased transparency for all bodies in receipt of fixed term contracts. HMCTS disposed of 35,400 SSCS public funds. The Government’s “Open Data Consultation” appeals in October 2011 (the latest date for which sought views on the types of organisations to which an published information is available), up 1,700 from 33,700 Open Data policy would apply. A summary of the in January 2011. responses has been published at: Social security and child support tribunal staff numbers January 2011 www.data.gov.uk to November 2011 1 The FOI Act is also subject to post-legislative scrutiny Number of staff to see how it is working in practice. Further policy in January 2011 958 this area will be developed in light of the evidence February 2011 958 drawn from both sets of work. March 2011 984 April 2011 1,013 Third Sector May 2011 1,029 June 2011 1,030 Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice July 2011 1,045 what contribution his Department is making to August 2011 1,061 implementation of the Compact with the voluntary September 2011 1,074 sector; and if he will make a statement. [92281] October 2011 1,019 November 2011 1,014 Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Compact sets out the 1 These data are taken from management information. The figures relationship between the Government and civil society quoted refer to the total number of people employed and includes those who work part-time or on a full-time basis and on temporary or organisations, also known as the voluntary community fixed-term contacts. Some of the staff included may work in multi- and social enterprise sector. This is part of the framework jurisdictional centres dealing with other work as well as social security of policies which support the big society. and child support appeals. 625W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 626W

Youth Custody: Standards Academies: Primary Education

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for what steps he is taking to apply national minimum Education if he will publish the evidence setting out the standards and regulations for children’s homes to (a) effects on attainment of converting primary schools young offender institutions and (b) secure training into academies; and if he will make a statement. centres. [92369] [90355] Mr Gibb: There is growing international evidence on Mr Blunt: Young people placed in custody have a the benefits of autonomy in schools, particularly in the wide range of needs and these are met through the areas of curriculum, staffing and finance. It is this different accommodation and regimes provided in autonomy that the academies programme enables and secure children’s homes, secure training centres which promotes improvements in standards. (STCs) and under-18 young offenders institutions (YOIs). Therefore the relevant standards and regulations There is also strong evidence (including from for children’s homes (which apply to both non-secure London School of Economics, 2011, Public Accounts and secure children’s homes) are not directly Committee, 2011, National Audit Office, 2010, and applicable to under-18 YOIs or STCs. There are no PricewaterhouseCoopers, 2008) of the benefits, in terms plans to apply children’s homes regulations to other of raised standards, of secondary schools becoming sectors. The regulatory framework of all three sectors is academies. There is no reason why this intervention designed to ensure the safety and well-being of young should not work as well if not better in primary schools people in custody. as it does in secondary schools. We are committed to report to Parliament on the progress of all academies in the programme, including primary academies, in March 2012. EDUCATION Adoption Academies: Admissions Mr Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many children under the age of one Education in what circumstances he would agree a were adopted in each year from 1997 to 2011. [91798] variation from the School Admissions Code in respect of admission arrangements for an academy; who he is Tim Loughton: The numbers of looked after children required consult on any such variation; in accordance aged under one who were adopted in each year from with which legislation such variation from the Code 1997 to 2011 are shown in the following table. becomes part of the academy’s funding agreement; and Looked after children who were adopted during the years ending in respect of which academies such variations have 31 March aged under one year at adoption1, 2, years ending 31 March already been agreed. [92189] 1997 to 2011, England Number of children Mr Gibb: All academies are required by their funding agreements to comply with admissions legislation and 1997 140 the School Admissions Codes. The Secretary of State 1998 150 can agree different arrangements in individual academies 1999 190 and free schools but we do not expect to have many 2000 190 requests for him to do so. He would only agree to such 2001 200 requests in exceptional and limited circumstances, where 2002 200 it is clear that the change would benefit local children 2003 220 and the community. 2004 220 He has, for example, agreed that because of the 2005 210 accelerated timescale for the opening of UTCs, studio 2006 200 schools and free schools, there is no requirement for 2007 150 these schools to be within the local process for co-ordinating 2008 110 admissions in the first year of establishment. For 2009 80 future years they must be within local authority 2010 70 co-ordination. 2011 60 The Secretary of State is not required to consult 1 Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. 2 Historical data may differ from older publications. This is mainly about these requests; that duty lies with the academy or due to the implementation of amendments and corrections sent by free school itself. He would, of course, take such some local authorities after the publication date of previous materials. consultation into account before reaching a decision. Source: The previous Administration agreed variations from SSDA 903 Code for the following academies when establishing This information for years 2007 to 2011 is also contained them: in table E1 of the Statistical First Release (Outcomes Priory LSST academy in Lincolnshire; for Children Looked After by Local Authorities in Birmingham Ormiston ’BRIT’ academy; and England, as at 31 March 2011) which was published on 28 September 2011 at: Belvedere academy, Liverpool. http://www.education.gov.uk/researchandstatistics/statistics/ To date, this Government have agreed a variation for: allstatistics/a00196857/children-looked-after-by-las-in- Canary Wharf free school england 627W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 628W

Children: Mental Health Services time available it is not reasonably practicable for the search to be carried out by a person of the same sex as Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the pupil, or in the presence of another member of staff. Education how many child (a) psychologists and (b) The Government propose to bring the new searching psychiatrists completed training in each of the last five provisions into force from 1 April 2012. years. [92585] The powers to search without consent as described above and the provisions included in the Education Anne Milton: I have been asked to reply on behalf of Act 2011 apply to schools in England only. It is of the Department of Health. course for the Members of the Welsh Assembly The numbers of child psychologists and psychiatrists Government to consider whether they wish that these who completed training is not held centrally. provisions should apply to schools in Wales.

Children: Retail Trade Departmental Catering

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Education what steps he is taking to implement the for Education how much his Department spent on food recommendation of the Bailey Review to develop a purchased through its food and catering services in the code of good practice on retailing to children. [92318] last 12 month period for which information is available. [86997] Sarah Teather: As with most of the recommendations that Reg Bailey made in his review of the commercialisation Tim Loughton: The Department spend on food and and sexualisation of childhood, the recommendation to beverages for official meetings during the financial year develop a code of good practice on retailing to children 2011/12 is not yet available. is directed to businesses and not to Government. The Department spent £349,725.07 on food and The British Retail Consortium (BRC) and a number beverages for official meetings during the financial year of its member companies developed voluntary guidelines 2009/10 and £199,347.67 in 2010/11. on good practice in retailing children’s clothes, which were launched on 6 June 2011. Companies supplying Departmental Pay more than half the market in children’s clothing are now signatories to the guidelines. The BRC will be Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for reviewing the guidelines this spring to take account of Education how much was paid to officials in his any feedback received from parents and customers. Department and its non-departmental public bodies in We will continue to monitor progress on this and (a) bonuses, (b) allowances and (c) other payments other recommendations in the Bailey Review, and there additional to basic salary in each of the last two years will be a full stock-take of progress by the end of the for which figures are available; what categories of year. At that point we will consider what further measures payment may be made to officials in addition to basic may need to be taken to achieve the recommended salary; what the monetary value is of each category of outcomes, including considering statutory regulation if payment; and what the monetary value was of the voluntary action has not been effective. 20 largest such payments made in each of the last two years. [89686] Children: Stop and Search Tim Loughton: The Department was created in May Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010. We use a non-consolidated (not pensionable) Education whether he plans to bring forward proposals amount of our pay bill (under 1.5%) each year to to require a witness to be present when a child is reward exceptional performance. The following table searched. [92359] shows the amounts paid with respect to non consolidated performance related pay in each of the last two full Mr Gibb: Head teachers and school staff currently financial years for the current Department and its have a statutory power to search a pupil without consent predecessor, the Department for Children, Schools and (or his/her possessions) if they reasonably suspect he/she Families. is carrying a knife or other weapon, alcohol, controlled drugs and stolen items (’prohibited items’). The person 2009/10 2010/11 conducting the search must be the same sex as the pupil £ million Percentage £ million Percentage being searched and the search must be witnessed by a member of staff also the same sex as the pupil where Non consolidated 1.9 1.4 1.9 1.48 practicable. performance related pay Provisions in section 2 of the Education Act 2011 will permit teachers to search without consent pupils of the Individual performance related pay awards range from opposite sex and will also remove the requirement that between £1,200 for administrative grades to £10,000 for the search of the pupil (or his/her possessions) is witnessed senior management grades. These sums generally amount by another member of staff. These provisions will only to less than 6% of salaries for staff below Grade 7, 4% apply where two important tests are satisfied. The first for Grades 7 and 6, and 10% for the Senior Civil test is that the person carrying out the search must Service. The top 20 of these awards, which also form the reasonably believe that there is a risk that serious harm top 20 highest allowances paid over each of the last two will be caused to a person if the search is not carried out years, were £10,000 to £15,000 for 2009/10; and £8,000 as a matter of urgency. The second test is that in the to £10,000 for 2010/11. 629W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 630W

The Department pays a range of allowances to staff minority or under-represented socio-economic background. to enable delivery of departmental business and to Interns receive a weekly training allowance of £350 for recognise and retain specific skills. The Department those based in London or £300 outside of London. spent £300,000 in each of the last two financial years Work experience placements are offered over the (2009/10 and 2010/11) on these allowances. This includes summer (May to August) to mainly school-aged (year payments to acknowledge staff who undertake temporary 10 and 11) children and some undergraduates. These periods of additional duties and payments to enable are unpaid placements. Placements are not restricted to recruitment for posts which are hard to fill, or require minority groups. particular specialisms. In addition this year the Department will be offering The following table shows the Department’s policy a number of internships to minority groups through the on each allowance: cross-Civil Service Whitehall Internship Programmes, as outlined in the Government’s Social Mobility Strategy Policy published in April 2011. Temporary Duties 10% or the difference between salary Education: Assessments Allowance and the pay band minima of the higher band. Supervisory Allowance 10% of basic pay when additional Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for duties or responsibilities are given Education what estimate he has made of the number within the substantive grade. and proportion of schools using more than one Recruitment or Retention EO and below up to £2,000 SEO and examination board or awarding body for GCSEs; and addition below up to £3,000 G6 and below up what assessment he has made of how this has changed to £5,000 over time. [92134] The Department makes a number of non cash payments to eligible staff, in the form of child care vouchers. Mr Gibb: The Department has made no such estimate These can be used by staff to pay for registered and or assessment. approved child care and the value varies depending on the age of the child and location and ranges between Extracurricular Activities £39 to £200 for staff out of London; £45 to £230 for London staff; and £90 to £460 for staff with children Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for with special needs. The amount spent on these vouchers Education what steps he is taking to ensure all children was £600,000 for 2009/10 and £460,000 for 2010/11. have access to extended school provision. [92355] Information on the public servants employed in the Department’s NDPBs is a matter for them and is not Sarah Teather: Funding for extended services is included held centrally. in the Dedicated Schools Grant, but it is for schools to decide what services they will offer based on the needs Departmental Travel of their pupils. As part of their wider strategies to raise standards for Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for the most disadvantaged pupils, schools may also wish Education whether his Department has agreed any to consider using some of their Pupil Premium funding contracts with (a) private hire vehicle and (b) taxi on extended services. companies since May 2010. [92836] The Department has awarded grants to Children’s University and ContinYou, over two years, 2011-13, to Tim Loughton: The information is as follows: support the development of extra curricular and learning (a) Private Hire Vehicles opportunities either side of the school day. The department entered into a framework agreement Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for with Enterprise Rent-A-Car UK Ltd on 6 December Education how many and what proportion of children 2010 in collaboration with Department for Works and had access to one or more cultural school trips in the Pensions and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. last year for which figures are available. [92357] (b) Taxi companies The department entered into a call-off agreement Mr Gibb: The Department does not hold this information with Addison Lee from 23 August 2010 for taxi services centrally. in London. The call-off is under the terms and conditions The Government recognise the contribution that cultural of the DWP Collaborative Taxi Sourcing, Booking, school trips can make to engaging and supporting Delivery and Management Framework. pupils’ education. We believe that schools are in the best position to decide how this can best meet the needs of Departmental Work Experience their pupils. This is not something on which we would want to ask schools to report centrally. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what work experience or traineeship Free Schools schemes his Department offers to minority groups. [92756] Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what steps can be taken by local Tim Loughton: The Department takes part each year organisations and schools when an application to set in the Cabinet Office Civil Service Summer Diversity up or become a free school or academy is opposed by a Internship Programme for graduates from an ethnic local authority. [91941] 631W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 632W

Mr Gibb: For all free schools or schools becoming Education Guidance’ which recommends that children academies there is a statutory requirement to carry out should be taught about the nature of marriage and its a consultation. Local organisations and schools should importance for family life and for bringing up children. contribute their views to this consultation, and are also This includes learning about stable and loving relationships, free to write to Ministers or the Department for Education respect, love and care. to express such views. All views, both positive and The Department is currently reviewing PSHE education negative, will be taken into account before a funding to determine how we can support schools to improve agreement is signed. the quality of all PSHE. The review will look at how the Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education guidance on sex and relationship education can be simplified to strengthen the priority given to teaching Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for about relationships and sexual consent. Encouraging Education what assessment he has made of Roots of teaching about sexual consent is part of the Government’s Empathy classroom practices as a means of promoting action plan to tackle Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG). social and emotional learning. [92310] Mr Gibb: The Department has no plans to make such Primary Education: Literacy an assessment As we said in the Schools White Paper ″The Importance Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for of Teaching″ there needs to be room in the life of the Education what support his Department is giving to school for an exploration of wider social issues which primary schools to develop pupils’ literacy skills in contribute to the well-being and engagement of all years two to six. [92399] students. It should be for teachers, not government, to design the lessons and the experiences which will engage Mr Gibb: We are determined to raise standards of students. literacy in schools in order to equip all children with the The Department’s evidence-gathering phase of its basic skills they need to succeed. We are promoting the review of Personal, Social, Health and Economics education teaching of reading through systematic synthetic phonics, closed on 30 November 2011. We are now analysing the in line with strong evidence on its particular benefits for contributions received, including national and international children aged 5-7. This includes making match-funding evidence, examples of best practice, and evidence based of up to £3,000 available to all state-funded schools interventions that are proven to achieve the outcomes with key stage one pupils (up to year two), so that they we want. The Department plans to consult on its proposals can purchase approved systematic synthetic phonics for the future of PSHE education later this year. products and training; introducing a phonics screening check for pupils at the end of year one; and improving Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for initial teacher training in systematic synthetic phonics. Education what steps he is taking to reform the The investment in reading in key stage one will have a personal, social, health and economic curriculum to positive impact on literacy skills in later years. In addition, teach pupils about children from different cultural our other reforms, including to Key Stage 2 assessment, backgrounds. [92356] and the future changes to the national curriculum, will all support improvements to literacy standards in primary Mr Gibb: The non-statutory programmes of study schools. for personal, social, health and economic (PSHE) education include teaching about the diversity of ethnic and cultural Pupils: Disadvantaged groups. Pupils are taught to respect and appreciate the similarities as well as differences between people of different races, cultures and religions. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many schools have received support The Department is currently reviewing PSHE education from the pupil premium for armed services’ children in to determine how we can support schools to improve each local authority area; and what the overall cost of the quality of all PSHE teaching and support teachers this policy has been. [91520] to teach the subject well. We are considering submissions of evidence and good practice received as part of the Sarah Teather: The pupil premium was introduced in review process. We will publish our proposals for public April 2011 and allocations have so far been made for consultation later this year. the 2011-12 financial year only. Pupil premium funding Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for is provided in respect of pupils known to be eligible for Education what steps he is taking to encourage positive free school meals, children in care who have been relationship education, including awareness of continuously looked after for at least six months and children whose parents are serving in the armed forces, domestic violence and sexual exploitation. [92358] known as service children. Mr Gibb: Children and young people are taught In England there were 5,170 schools with pupils on about making positive relationships within the non-statutory the January 2011 school census recorded as service subject of personal, social, health and economics (PSHE) children who qualified for the service premium. education. The total cost of this element of the premium for The current PSHE programmes of study include 2011-12 is £9,013,948, with schools receiving £200 in teaching about having respect for others and understanding respect of each service child. This will increase to £250 the nature and consequences of, teasing, bullying and in respect of each service child in 2012-13. The following aggressive behaviour. Schools must also have regard to table provides a breakdown of the number of schools in the Secretary of State’s statutory ‘Sex and Relationships receipt of the service premium by local authority. 633W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 634W

State-funded primary, secondary and special schools: Number of schools with State-funded primary, secondary and special schools: Number of schools with pupils eligible for the service child premium in 2011-12 by local authority area in pupils eligible for the service child premium in 2011-12 by local authority area in England England Number of schools with pupils eligible Number of schools with pupils eligible Local authority for the service child premium1 Local authority for the service child premium1

England 5,170 Calderdale 17 Kirklees 40 City of London 0 Leeds 33 Camden 2 Wakefield 32 Greenwich 21 Gateshead 9 Hackney 0 Newcastle upon Tyne 18 Hammersmith and Fulham 2 North Tyneside 39 Islington 1 South Tyneside 12 Kensington and Chelsea 6 Sunderland 23 Lambeth 2 Bath and North East Somerset 27 Lewisham 2 Bristol, City of 11 Southwark 1 North Somerset 28 Tower Hamlets 3 South Gloucestershire 34 Wandsworth 6 Hartlepool 9 Westminster 7 Middlesbrough 19 Barking and Dagenham 2 Redcar and Cleveland 25 Barnet 10 Stockton-on-Tees 35 Bexley 8 Kingston Upon Hull, City of 16 Brent 1 East Riding of Yorkshire 37 Bromley 3 North East Lincolnshire 15 Croydon 6 North Lincolnshire 20 Ealing 0 North Yorkshire 149 Enfield 5 Yo rk 3 5 Haringey 2 Luton 2 Harrow 5 Bedford 8 Havering 5 Central Bedfordshire 33 Hillingdon 38 Buckinghamshire 89 Hounslow 3 Milton Keynes 10 Kingston upon Thames 11 Derbyshire 94 Merton 6 Derby 6 Newham 1 Dorset 102 Redbridge 3 Poole 29 Richmond upon Thames 10 Bournemouth 13 Sutton 1 Durham 70 Waltham Forest 1 Darlington 26 Birmingham 30 East Sussex 14 Coventry 4 Brighton and Hove 0 Dudley 10 Hampshire 351 Sandwell 4 Portsmouth 51 Solihull 10 Southampton 16 Walsall 7 Leicestershire 46 Wolverhampton 4 Leicester 5 Knowsley 5 Rutland 20 Liverpool 33 Staffordshire 92 St Helens 16 Stoke-on-Trent 9 Sefton 34 Wiltshire 195 Wirral 33 Swindon 32 Bolton 13 Bracknell Forest 13 Bury 6 Windsor and Maidenhead 21 Manchester 11 West Berkshire 26 Oldham 9 Reading 3 Rochdale 12 Slough 1 Salford 6 Wokingham 20 Stockport 17 Cambridgeshire 98 Tameside 6 Peterborough 35 Trafford 1 Halton 4 Wigan 24 Warrington 12 Barnsley 38 Devon 161 Doncaster 27 Plymouth 80 Rotherham 19 Torbay 21 Sheffield 16 Essex 80 Bradford 9 Southend-on-Sea 5 635W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 636W

State-funded primary, secondary and special schools: Number of schools with Mr Gibb: Most schools promote pupil participation pupils eligible for the service child premium in 2011-12 by local authority area in England through a schools council. The Government believe Number of schools with pupils eligible that schools should consider the views of pupils but Local authority for the service child premium1 that they should determine the most effective way to do this. Thurrock 0 Herefordshire 45 The Government also believe that it is important for Worcestershire 32 pupils to understand important financial principles, Kent 112 such as budgeting. Many schools provide financial Medway 40 education as part of Personal, Social, Health and Lancashire 94 Economics education, although many may want to give Blackburn with Darwen 7 their pupils practical experience of budgeting through Blackpool 11 their role on the school council. Nottinghamshire 110 Responsibility for the school budget of the school Nottingham 9 itself rests with the governing body, and students under Shropshire 47 18 cannot be governors as they cannot take legal Telford and Wrekin 46 responsibility and therefore enter into financial Cheshire East 17 commitments. Governing bodies are free to invite pupils Cheshire West and Chester 35 to attend governing body meetings and to participate as Cornwall 157 associate members of the governing body. Those over Cumbria 22 18 can speak and vote but they cannot vote on the Gloucestershire 97 budget and financial commitments of the governing Hertfordshire 49 body of their school. Isle of Wight 15 Schools: Inspections Lincolnshire 231 Norfolk 132 Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Northamptonshire 30 Education what role the English baccalaureate criteria Northumberland 65 will play in Ofsted inspections. [91614] Oxfordshire 129 Somerset 149 Mr Gibb: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief Suffolk 141 Inspector, Sir Michael Wilshaw, has written to my hon. Surrey 83 Friend, and a copy of his response has been placed in Warwickshire 51 the House Libraries. West Sussex 60 Letter from Sir Michael Wilshaw, dated 26 January 2012: 1 Number of State-Funded Primary, State-Funded Secondary and Maintained Special Schools (including Academies and CTCs) with pupils recorded on roll Your recent Parliamentary Question has been passed to me, as as Service Children on the January 2011 School Census in year groups R-11 Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for response. (where National Curriculum year groups do not apply pupils aged 4 to 15). Under the new framework for school inspections introduced in For all those aged 5 and over includes sole or dual main registrations only. Source: January 2012, inspectors make a judgement on: pupils’ achievement; School Census the quality of teaching; behaviour and safety of pupils, and the Pupils: Per Capita Costs leadership and management of the school. These judgements are then taken into account, along with the school’s promotion of the pupils’ spiritual, moral, social and cultural development, as inspectors Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for make their judgement on the school’s overall effectiveness. Education if he will ensure that local authorities In judging pupils’ achievement in secondary schools, inspectors receive an amount of local authority central spend take account of both pupils’ past attainment and progress, and equivalent grant to enable per pupil funding for schools the quality of learning and progress seen in the school on inspection. which they maintain to be comparable to that in In considering past performance, inspectors evaluate previous academy schools in their area. [84007] years’ results in GCSE and equivalent examinations compared to figures and indices which show the pupils’ progress against progress Mr Gibb: The aim of the Local Authority Central measures which are benchmarked nationally. Spend Equivalent Grant (LACSEG) is to replicate for Pupils’ attainment in the English baccalaureate is not one of academies the expenditure being spent by their local the key measures that inspectors currently consider as a matter of authority on functions which become the responsibility course when assessing pupils’ achievement under the new inspection of the academy on conversion. It follows that equivalent framework. The English baccalaureate is not a statutory requirement for schools. Many schools currently do not enter all pupils for the funding remains with local authorities to support the requisite subjects so that performance in the English baccalaureate maintained schools in their areas. We have announced is more a reflection of individual schools’ curriculum policies our intention to move to a nationally-based per pupil rather than a measure of pupils’ attainment. However, if the rate for LACSEG from 2013-14. This will ensure that school identifies performance in the English baccalaureate as an local authorities and academies receive an equal per important part of its work, inspectors will take this into account pupil amount for the services which they are responsible in their evaluation of pupils’ achievement. for providing. We will be consulting on the detail of A copy of this reply has been sent to Nick Gibb MP, Minister these proposals later in 2012. of State for Schools, and will be placed in the library of both Houses, Schools: Budgeting Schools: Sport

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for Education if he will take steps to introduce a student Education what steps he is taking to improve the council in all schools with council members able to provision of sport in schools in (a) Medway and (b) participate in budgeting. [92360] Kent. [92758] 637W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 638W

Tim Loughton: Physical education (PE) is a compulsory Teachers: Pay subject in the national curriculum in England and will continue to be so. In its last report on PE (2008) Ofsted Gareth Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for found an improving trend in standards, achievement, Education what the average salary was of a teacher in provision and leadership; with the quality of teaching (a) England, (b) Kent and (c) Dartford in the last being good or outstanding in two thirds of schools year for which figures are available. [92143] visited. Our education reforms will free up all schools to decide how best to deliver a broad and balanced curriculum, Mr Gibb: The following table provides the average including the provision of sport in schools. salary for full-time qualified teachers in service in publicly The Government want to increase the amount of funded schools in England, Kent local authority and competitive sport in schools, and are making available Dartford parliamentary constituency in November 2010, £65 million for this purpose. This funding will cover the the latest information available. school years 2011/12 and 2012/13 and will pay for one Average salary of full-time qualified teachers1 in service in publicly day a week of a secondary PE teacher’s time to be spent funded schools. Year: November 2010. Coverage: England, Kent local out of the classroom, encouraging greater take-up of authority and Dartford constituency competitive sport in local primary schools, and securing Average salary (£) a fixture network for schools to increase the amount of intra- and inter- school sporting competition. In (a) England 37,990 Medway 22 secondary schools and in (b) Kent 146 Kent 37,100 secondary schools are eligible for the funding, and Dartford 37,960 allocations of £7,600 per school have been made for the 1 Includes full time qualified leadership and classroom grades. 2011/12 academic year. Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest £10. In addition the Government are creating more Source: opportunities for competitive sport within and between School Workforce Census schools, and at county, district and national levels through the School Games. This new sport competition, which Third Sector is open to all schools, uses the inspiration of London’s Olympics and culminates in National Finals in May Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for 2012, some of which will take place in the Olympic Education what contribution his Department is Park. making to implementation of the Compact with the voluntary sector; and if he will make a statement. Secondary Education: Gifted Children [92290] Sarah Teather: The Department for Education signed Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for up to the renewed Compact published in December Education pursuant to the answer of 23 January 2012, 2010, and recognises both the benefits and the importance Official Report, column 12W, on secondary education: of the Compact to its relationship with the voluntary, gifted children, what statistics his Department community and social enterprise (VCSE) sector. maintains on the number and proportion of schools who identify pupils for the Gifted and Talented Over the last year, the Department for Education has taken a number of actions to ensure the Compact is programme. [92382] being implemented, including: Monitoring consultation lengths to ensure consultations with Mr Gibb: The Gifted and Talented (G and T) programme the voluntary, community and social enterprise sector (VCSE) are ended on 31 March 2010. The Department no longer 12 weeks where possible; maintains data on the programme. Incorporating the Compact into its internal guidance on matters The G and T ‘flag’ which formed part of the annual such as the Making Policy Framework, and its Compact compliant school census from 2007 has been removed from the guidance for staff to consider when entering into a grant funded January 2012 census. There was no requirement for relationship with the VCSE sector; schools to use this ‘flag’ and it was for schools to decide Monitoring departmental Compact compliance, via the number what—if any—additional or more tailored support was of complaints received about the implementation of the Compact; appropriate for their G and T pupils. Participating in the NAO’s review of the National Compact implementation; The last data that we hold is from the January 2011 school census. This shows that the Respecting and upholding the independence of the VCSE sector to deliver their mission. Including their right to campaign, number and proportion of schools which identified regardless of any relationship, financial or otherwise, which may at least one G and T pupil was: exist. 15,045 (89.1%) for state-funded primary schools In 2012-13, the Department for Education will also 3,243 (98.0%) for state-funded secondary schools include reporting on the Compact within its business plan to be published in spring 2012. Although this particular ‘flag’ has been removed from the census, we are publishing much more data than ever before about the progress of high attaining Work Experience pupils. The information in the recently published performance tables shows, for the first time, the progression Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for of groups of pupils with different levels of attainment, Education what steps he is taking to ensure all 15 and so parents and others can see how children of different 16-year-olds have access to two weeks’ work experience abilities are catered for. each year. [92316] 639W Written Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Written Answers 640W

Mr Gibb: Around 95% of students participate in WOMEN AND EQUALITIES work experience, amounting to over half a million placements each year for 14 to 16-year-olds. We believe that schools should be free to provide work experience Freedom of Information placements that meet the needs of their pupils and their local communities, rather than a centrally-imposed requirement. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Minister for Women Alison Wolf’s recent review of vocational education, and Equalities whether the Government Equalities available online at: Office publishes on its website its response to each https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/standard/ request it receives under the Freedom of Information publicationDetail/Page1/DFE-00031-2011 Act 2000; whether the response is published in the same part of its website on each occasion; and what the outlined the importance of high quality work experience average time taken is between responding to a request placements as part of a coherent and well thought out and the information being made available on the 16-19 study programme. The Government remain website. [92130] committed to providing young people with high quality work experience and we are providing £4.5 million over the next two years for 25 further education colleges to Lynne Featherstone: The Government Equalities Office pilot innovative new models for delivering work experience. became part of the Home Office on 1 April 2011. I refer We are also working with employers to review regulation the hon. Member to my answer in response to parliamentary and remove barriers that stop employers from offering question 92117 on 30 January 2012, Official Report, work experience to young people. columns 400-01W. ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 31 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 655 JUSTICE—continued Community Projects (Kettering)...... 655 Law Centres...... 656 Conditional Fee Arrangements...... 669 Legal Aid...... 668 European Court of Human Rights...... 657 Prison Officer Training ...... 664 Foreign National Prisoners...... 659 Prison Places...... 667 Free Legal Advice...... 660 Probation Service...... 665 Greater Manchester Intensive Alternative Topical Questions ...... 670 to Custody Project...... 669 Victim Support ...... 661 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 31 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 37WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 51WS Trade Policy (Opt-ins)...... 37WS Afghanistan Progress Report (December 2011) ...... 51WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 38WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 52WS Changes to the Building Regulations ...... 38WS Police Grant Report in England and Wales 2012-13 ... 52WS Local Government Finance ...... 41WS UK Border Agency (Report) ...... 55WS JUSTICE...... 55WS EDUCATION...... 43WS Inquests (Service Personnel Overseas) ...... 55WS Key Stage 4 Performance Tables ...... 43WS TRANSPORT ...... 57WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 49WS Local Major Transport Schemes (Consultation)...... 57WS Transmission Power Cable Costs ...... 49WS TREASURY ...... 38WS Bilateral Loan (Ireland) ...... 38WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 50WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 58WS Canal & River Trust (Government Funding)...... 50WS NEST (Revised Auto-enrolment Timetable) ...... 58WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 31 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 5P EDUCATION—continued Free Fruit for Young Children ...... 5P Teachers’ Pension Scheme ...... 6P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 31 January 2012

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 517W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Crown Prosecution Service: Translation Services...... 517W Overseas Trade: Saudi Arabia...... 609W Freedom of Information...... 518W Post Offices...... 610W Third Sector...... 518W Post Offices: Pay ...... 611W Post Offices: Wrexham...... 611W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 602W Public Houses...... 611W Arms Trade: Libya...... 602W Students: Fees and Charges ...... 611W Business: Scotland ...... 603W Technology and Innovation Centres ...... 612W Copyright: Education ...... 605W Education: Ex-servicemen ...... 605W Exports: Gulf States ...... 606W CABINET OFFICE...... 612W Financial Markets...... 606W Charities: Registration ...... 612W Foreign Investment in UK: Glasgow ...... 606W Employment: Disability...... 612W Freedom of Information...... 606W Government Departments: Consultants ...... 613W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 608W Lone Parents...... 613W Higher Education: Intellectual Property ...... 607W Members: Correspondence ...... 614W Immigrants: Pay ...... 609W Septicaemia: Death...... 614W Oil: Canada ...... 609W Third Sector...... 615W Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 559W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Councillors: Conduct...... 559W AFFAIRS...... 527W Departmental Pay...... 560W Agriculture: Subsidies...... 527W Empty Property ...... 560W Bees: Pesticides ...... 528W Energy Performance Certificates...... 560W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 529W Fire Services: Standards...... 561W Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination ...... 529W Freedom of Information...... 561W Bracken ...... 530W Housing...... 561W British Waterways...... 530W Residential Developments...... 562W Dairy Farming...... 531W Retail Trade: Planning Permission...... 562W Departmental Renewable Energy...... 531W Voluntary Organisations...... 562W Droughts: East of England...... 531W Water: Conservation ...... 563W Echinococcus Multilocularis...... 532W Eggs: EU Law...... 532W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 524W Environment Protection...... 533W Advertising: Abortion...... 524W Environment Protection: Finance ...... 533W Departmental Travel...... 524W Fisheries ...... 534W Departmental Work Experience...... 524W Flood Control: Coastal Areas...... 534W Historic Buildings...... 525W Flood Risk Management...... 534W Historic Buildings: West Midlands ...... 525W Food ...... 535W Olympic Games 2012: Northern Ireland...... 526W Forestry Commission...... 535W PhonepayPlus ...... 526W Livestock: Disease Control ...... 536W RTE: Northern Ireland...... 526W Snares ...... 536W World War I...... 527W Sustainable Development: Business ...... 536W Territorial Waters ...... 536W Trees ...... 537W DEFENCE...... 571W Veterinary Medicine: Fees and Charges ...... 537W Afghanistan: Army...... 571W Waste: Landfill ...... 538W Armed Forces: Entertainers...... 571W Water Abstraction ...... 539W Departmental Theft...... 572W Water: Meters ...... 540W Depleted Uranium...... 573W Weedkillers ...... 540W Ex-servicemen: Health Services ...... 573W Libya: Armed Conflict...... 574W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 577W Military Aircraft...... 574W Afghanistan: Drugs ...... 577W Radioactive Waste: Dalgety Bay ...... 575W Afghanistan: Police...... 577W Turkey: Armed Forces ...... 576W Arms Trade: Treaties...... 577W Atlantic Ocean Islands: Environment Protection...... 578W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 590W Bangladesh: Military Coups ...... 578W British Constitution...... 590W Ethiopia: Human Rights ...... 578W EU Action ...... 579W Falkland Islands: Sovereignty...... 579W EDUCATION...... 625W Human Rights ...... 579W Academies: Admissions ...... 625W Occupied Territories: Housing...... 580W Academies: Primary Education ...... 626W Pitcairn Islands...... 580W Adoption ...... 626W Serbia: Bail ...... 580W Children: Mental Health Services ...... 627W Serbia: Detainees ...... 581W Children: Retail Trade ...... 627W Serbia: EU Accession ...... 581W Children: Stop and Search ...... 627W Sovereignty: Scotland ...... 582W Departmental Catering...... 628W Syria: Politics and Government ...... 582W Departmental Pay...... 628W Third Sector...... 582W Departmental Travel...... 629W Departmental Work Experience...... 629W HEALTH...... 540W Education: Assessments...... 630W Bowel Cancer: Screening...... 540W Extracurricular Activities ...... 630W Cancer: Medical Treatments ...... 541W Free Schools ...... 630W Care Homes: Standards ...... 541W Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education..... 631W Departmental Job Satisfaction...... 542W Primary Education: Literacy ...... 632W Depressive Illnesses: Medical Treatments...... 542W Pupils: Disadvantaged ...... 632W Diabetes: Young People ...... 542W Pupils: Per Capita Costs ...... 635W Food: Labelling ...... 543W Schools: Budgeting ...... 635W Freedom of Information...... 543W Schools: Inspections ...... 636W Health Services: Detention Centres ...... 544W Schools: Sport ...... 636W Health Services: Learning Disabled ...... 544W Secondary Education: Gifted Children...... 637W Health Services: North East...... 544W Teachers: Pay...... 638W Hypopituitarism ...... 545W Third Sector...... 638W In Vitro Fertilisation...... 545W Work Experience ...... 638W NHS: Contracts...... 545W Nutrition: Health Education ...... 546W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 596W Organs: Donors ...... 546W Carbon Trust ...... 596W Pain ...... 546W Departmental Training ...... 597W Palliative Care...... 547W Departmental Work Experience...... 599W Palliative Care: Children...... 547W Environmental Transformation Fund ...... 599W Personal, Social, Health and Economic Education..... 548W Fuel Poverty ...... 599W Pregnancy: Drugs ...... 548W Green Deal Scheme ...... 601W Skin Cancer ...... 549W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 601W Skin Cancer: Drugs ...... 549W Warm Home Discount Scheme...... 602W Smoking: Drugs...... 550W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued JUSTICE—continued Social Services ...... 550W Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 ...... 622W Social Services: Children...... 551W Public Sector: Procurement...... 623W Stem Cells...... 552W Third Sector...... 623W Voluntary Organisations...... 552W Trafficking Victim Support Scheme ...... 616W Work Capability Assessment: Appeals...... 624W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 553W Youth Custody: Standards...... 625W Animal Experiments: EU Law...... 553W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 517W Arrest Warrants: Extradition...... 553W Freedom of Information...... 517W Criminal Records: EU Action...... 554W Deloitte...... 554W SCOTLAND...... 519W Departmental Drinks...... 555W Freedom of Information...... 519W Departmental Grants ...... 555W Departmental Pilot Schemes...... 556W TRANSPORT ...... 563W Departmental Work Experience...... 556W Aviation: RAF Northolt...... 563W Illegal Immigrants ...... 556W Aviation: Wales...... 564W Immigrants: EU Nationals ...... 557W Christmas ...... 564W Immigration Controls...... 557W Departmental Procurement ...... 564W Immigration: Finance ...... 558W Great Western Railway Line ...... 565W Private Security Industry Act 2001 ...... 558W Great Western Railway Line: Electrification ...... 565W Prostitution...... 558W High Speed 2 ...... 565W Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 ...... 558W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 566W Telephone Tapping: Warrants...... 559W Metals: Theft ...... 566W Third Sector...... 559W Midland Main Railway Line: Electrification...... 566W Railway Trains...... 567W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 517W Railways ...... 567W Catering...... 517W Railways: Kent...... 567W Railways: Wales ...... 567W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 583W Taxis: Fares...... 568W Afghanistan: Education...... 583W Transport: Infrastructure...... 568W Afghanistan: Females ...... 583W TREASURY ...... 590W Afghanistan: Terrorism...... 583W Bank of Ireland ...... 590W Charities: Education ...... 584W Business: Disclosure of Information...... 591W Developing Countries: Employment...... 584W Child Care Tax Credit...... 591W Employment ...... 584W Community Development Tax Relief...... 591W Ethiopia: Resettlement ...... 585W EU Budget: Contributions...... 591W EU External Trade: Rainforests...... 585W Excise Duties: Beer ...... 592W Freedom of Information...... 586W Financial Service Authority ...... 592W India: Tuberculosis ...... 586W Individual Savings Accounts...... 592W Overseas Aid...... 587W National Insurance: Complaints...... 592W Overseas Territories: Business...... 587W Older People: Finance ...... 593W Sri Lanka: Human Rights...... 587W PAYE...... 593W Sri Lanka: Politics and Government...... 588W Revenue and Customs: Bristol ...... 593W Tanzania: Radar ...... 588W Revenue and Customs: Closures ...... 594W Third Sector...... 589W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services...... 594W Tuberculosis: Drugs...... 589W Seized Articles ...... 595W World Bank ...... 590W Tax Allowances: Unemployment ...... 595W Tax Collection ...... 596W JUSTICE...... 616W Bill of Rights ...... 617W WALES...... 571W Bribery Act 2010...... 617W Voluntary Organisations...... 571W Community Orders...... 618W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 640W Community Sentences ...... 616W Freedom of Information...... 640W Criminal Proceedings: Costs...... 618W Domestic Violence Victim Support...... 616W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 520W European Regulations on Civil Jurisdiction...... 619W Departmental Statistics...... 520W Freedom of Information...... 619W Employment and Support Allowance: HIV Infection. 520W Members: Correspondence ...... 620W Employment Schemes: Third Sector ...... 521W National Offender Management Service...... 616W New Deal Schemes ...... 521W Offenders: Mental Illness...... 620W Pensioners: Housing Benefit ...... 522W Prisoners’ Release ...... 621W Unemployed People: Mental Illness...... 523W Prisons: Death ...... 622W Universal Credit ...... 523W Prisons: Private Sector ...... 622W Work Capability Assessment ...... 524W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Tuesday 31 January 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 655] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Justice

Informal European Council [Col. 677] Statement—(Prime Minister)

Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Relocation to Bristol) [Col. 704] Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Relocation to Sheffield) [Col. 705] Department for Transport (Relocation to Birmingham) [Col. 705] Department for Culture, Media and Sport (Relocation to Manchester) [Col. 705] Department for Education (Relocation to Nottingham) [Col. 705] Department for International Development (Relocation to Newcastle) [Col. 705] Department for Work and Pensions (Relocation to Leeds) [Col. 705] Department for Communities and Local Government (Relocation to Liverpool) [Col. 705] English Police Forces [Col. 706] Local Government (Amendment) [Col. 706] Armed Forces (Germany) [Col. 706] Child Benefit (Amendment) [Col. 706] Parliament (Amendment) (No. 2) [Col. 706] Local Government Finance (Amendment) [Col. 706] Local Government Finance (Amendment) (No. 2) [Col. 707] Public Sector Salaries [Col. 707] Public Sector Bonuses [Col. 707] Corporate Tax Reductions [Col. 707] Ministerial and Other Pensions and Salaries (Amendment) [Col. 707] Parliamentary Standards (Amendment) (No. 2) [Col. 708] Recall of Elected Representatives (No. 2) [Col. 708] Bills Presented, and read the First time

Electricity Generation (Wales) [Col. 709] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Jonathan Edwards)—on a Division, negatived

Local Government Finance Bill [Col. 716] Further considered in Committee

Early Intervention [Col. 795] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Falkland Islands [Col. 191WH] Policing (North Wales) [Col. 215WH] Social Mobility [Col. 241WH] Inflammatory Bowel Disease [Col. 249WH] Offshore Renewable Energy (East Anglia) [Col. 258WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 37WS] Petitions [Col. 5P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 517W] [see index inside back page]