Tuesday Volume 539 31 January 2012 No. 258 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday 31 January 2012 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 655 31 JANUARY 2012 656 demanding. We want to go further by seeing a clear House of Commons punitive element in every sentence, and we are consulting about that. Tuesday 31 January 2012 Several hon. Members rose— The House met at half-past Two o’clock Mr Speaker: Order. This question is about Kettering, from which Carshalton and Wallington and Manchester PRAYERS are a long way away. Law Centres [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 2. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS What steps he plans to take to support law centres. [92472] LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Further consideration of Bill, as amended, opposed and (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): The Ministry of Justice does deferred until Tuesday 7 February (Standing Order No. 20). not provide direct support for law centres. However, law centres are able to bid for contracts issued by the Legal LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR Services Commission to provide legal services in specified LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) areas of law and will continue to be able to do so in the future. TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL My Department is also working closely with the PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER) Cabinet Office to support the cross-Government review Second Readings opposed and deferred until Tuesday into the funding of the not-for-profit sector announced 7 February (Standing Order No. 20). on 21 November last year. Lilian Greenwood: I thank the Minister for that reply, but what would he say to my local law centre in Nottingham, Oral Answers to Questions which, as a result of his legal aid changes, says it will no longer be able to offer specialist advice to people experiencing problems at work, with debts or with benefits? When our local citizens advice bureau is already JUSTICE hugely overstretched, does that not mean that hundreds of people—particularly vulnerable people—will be unable The Secretary of State was asked— to get the advice they need and will be denied access to justice? Community Projects (Kettering) Mr Djanogly: Specifically, legal aid will be provided 1. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): How many for a lot of debt advice after our changes. We are offenders served part or all of their sentence working reducing our spend on legal aid, and law centres will be on community projects in Kettering constituency in affected by that, but the Government recognise and 2011; and for which organisations work was carried highly value the important role of not-for-profit out. [92471] organisations such as law centres. That is why we launched a £107 million transition fund last year and the £20 million The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick advice services fund this year. It is why the Cabinet Herbert): Four hundred and five offenders completed Office has also announced a review of not-for-profit all or some of their compulsory unpaid work or community advice centres, which is a welcome and important payback in Kettering last year. Twelve organisations development. benefited, including the local wildlife trust, St Mary’s church, Mind and the British Heart Foundation. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Is it not Mr Hollobone: It is clearly beneficial for offenders an assumption behind the Government’s reforms that and the local community for offenders to do constructive the availability of advice needs to replace a great deal of work in the community, but will my right hon. Friend litigation? If that is to be achieved, is it not necessary to agree to visit Kettering with me to see some of those ensure that there is a long-term, not merely a short-term, offenders in action so that we can really see whether solution to some of the funding problems of law centres they are putting their backs to the wheel and doing this and citizens advice bureaux? work properly? Mr Djanogly: My right hon. Friend makes an important Nick Herbert: I am happy to accept my hon. Friend’s point. We are changing the way funding works and invitation to visit Kettering and to see a scheme with looking for alternatives to be taken up. However, we him. It is important that community sentences are appreciate that, in the meantime, while the reorganisations punitive and that they are properly enforced. We are are happening, there is a need to support law centres, increasing the maximum length of curfew requirements which is why we are looking at transitional provisions to and making community payback more rigorous and ease that passage. 657 Oral Answers31 JANUARY 2012 Oral Answers 658 Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Writing in Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the yesterday’s Daily Mail, Matthew Elliott, the chief executive Justice Secretary agree that much of the media speculation of the TaxPayers Alliance, pointed out that: and attacks on the European Court of Human Rights “advice costing £80 to deal with a housing problem can save are damaging to the interests of many people all over thousands for councils who are legally required to house homeless Europe who are suffering serious human rights abuses? families…cutting £10.5m for legal aid in clinical negligence cases This country, which prides itself on having a Human will cause knock-on costs to the NHS of £28.5m.” Rights Act, should support the European convention He says: and the Court, and recognise that it is in everybody’s “Almost everyone who has looked at these particular cuts”— interest that we protect human rights in this country, as well as in Hungary, Russia or wherever else they are even Norman Tebbit— under threat. “thinks that too many of them will end up costing taxpayers more than they save.” Mr Clarke: This country is a great advocate of human Is he right? rights throughout the world, and should continue to be so. The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and I Mr Djanogly: No, he is not right. The figures have have confirmed in recent speeches at Strasbourg our been repeated by the Law Society. The point is that legal commitment to the European convention on human help is not the same as legal aid. We certainly appreciate rights and our desire to see human rights maintained all the strong need for legal help so that problems can be the way from this country to the Russian Federation, dealt with early, and that is why we are very supportive which is the furthest-east member. However, we seek to of not-for-profit organisations. strengthen the Court by making it operate properly. It should concentrate on the important cases and those European Court of Human Rights that raise serious issues of principle obtaining to the convention. At the moment, it has 150,000 cases in arrears. It takes years to get them heard, and it sometimes 3. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) gives judgments despite the whole issue having been (Con): What steps he is taking to promote reform of properly considered by national institutions and national the European Court of Human Rights. [92474] courts. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): Will my (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The United Kingdom has made right hon. and learned Friend be visiting judges in the reform of the Court the top priority for our current European Court of Human Rights to explain the agenda chairmanship of the Council of Europe. Our aim is to for the British chairmanship of the Council of Europe? secure agreement on a package of reform measures. We When our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister visited have been talking to many member states and to key Strasbourg—very successfully—last Wednesday and gave figures in the Court and the Council of Europe, and we a brilliant speech, delegates expressed concern that he are reasonably confident that we can gain agreement. did not have time to visit the Court itself. Stephen Phillips: I am extremely grateful to my right Mr Clarke: First, I am delighted that my hon. Friend hon. and learned Friend for that answer. He will have and I agree that the Prime Minister gave a brilliant seen that the Prime Minister rightly condemned the speech in Strasbourg last week. It went down very well Court’s decision effectively blocking the deportation of there. Yes, I meet judges. As I mentioned in an earlier Abu Qatada despite the assurances that the United answer, I hold discussions with judges. There is widespread Kingdom obtained from Jordan. How long does he acceptance in Strasbourg of the need for reform, so expect this reform process to take, and what steps are long as people are satisfied that we will continue to being taken now to ensure that the Court does not uphold the convention and we regard the Court as the torpedo decisions of the UK courts in a way that right forum in which to consider serious issues of principle undermines rather than supports human rights? in all 47 member states. I am sorry that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was unable to meet judges, Mr Clarke: My hon.