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John Boccacino: Hello, and welcome back to the Cuse Conversations Podcast. My name John Boccacino, the communication specialist in 's Office of Alumni Engagement. I'm also a 2003 graduate of the S.I. Newhouse School of Public Communications, with a degree in broadcast journalism. I am so glad you found our podcast. Well folks, today on the Cuse Conversations Alumni Podcast, I am pleased to welcome on Greg Allen, a former Syracuse football player, a proud [inaudible 00:00:38] of Syracuse University. He has a terrific story to tell you as one of the members of the Syracuse 8. And, for those who don't know, we're going to get into the details of the Syracuse 8, the racial issues that were taking place on Syracuse University's campus, in the late 60s and early 70s, and the role that Greg and a lot of his teammates took, in fighting for racial equality. These topics are extremely timely, given everything we're dealing with here in 2020 with George Floyd, with Jacob Blake, with all of these social justice movements, that are taking place across the country.

John Boccacino: And Greg, I know that's kind of a overarching way to get into our conversation, but first of all, I want to welcome you to the podcast. And, I hope that you're doing well during these tumultuous times.

Greg Allen: Yes I am. I'm doing well, me and the family are doing well. Thank you for asking. I appreciate that John.

John Boccacino: Does it strike you a bit as deja vu, that history is repeating itself, when we're going through a lot of these same issues that you and your teammates fought through 50 years ago.

Greg Allen: Yes and no. I think history tends to move in trends. I don't want to misquote, but I believe it was Lennon who said that, "There decades when there's no change, and then there are weeks when decades change." And, I think we're in that period now. I think that we went through a period of maybe the last 30 years or so, where everyone assumed that we had a handle on, or at least had control over most of the racial issues, and tensions, and social justice issues, here in the United States. But again, as events occur, we're reminded and of course sometimes past histories are brought up, and then we also see that it isn't a history, that it's really a current event, but one that we just haven't given that much attention to until now.

John Boccacino: And again, we'll get into the Syracuse 8 of your story. But just to start off, what similarities do you see between the racial climate, and the racial tensions now, and when you're were a student back in the 60s and 70s?

Greg Allen: I think a lot of it has to do with education and awareness. When you go back and you think about the late 60s, early 70s, of course, you have to think about the civil rights era. And, that was a specific era, bringing Black people, and people of color to a certain point in history. We were shedding the , and all those things. And, we were now addressing social justice and civil rights openly in courts, voting rights amendment. And as things change, they

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also change for us. And, coming up for me in the 60s, I was just entering my teen years, think about 63, 65 on up. And I had witnessed on television, racial injustice. I had also witnessed it personally growing up. I also witnessed it in my family. So, I witnessed that period of time.

Greg Allen: And, I think people started to put things in place, and as a society we started to grow, and we became more tolerant. And then, I think what's currently happening now is that, with the social media, we're now able to witness in real time, things that were mentioned, or things that were told, but not really witnessed and not really seen, and it didn't get the attention that they deserve. But, I think with the advent of social media, and of course technology, things are witnessed in real-time, when you think about George Floyd, we all witnessed that. It wasn't a story told by a news reporter, or an eyewitness told someone else, or it was something that was in printed media. It was something that was right before us. And, if you had a heartbeat and a mind, you had to react to it. You could not just sit there and flip the channel, and say, "Oh, well," and move on.

Greg Allen: And, I think that really prick the consciousness of America, and America's conscious. And I mean, it's evident too, when you think about the demonstrations. It wasn't just people of color, it was all people of all colors, of all genders, of different nationalities, religions, creeds, generational differences. But, people came together under one cause saying that, "This is not the America that I want to live in." "I want to live in a better America than that." And, people took to the streets. And to me, I was glad, I guess, to be alive, to witness something like that, because that's what we're all hoping for, is that we can all just see each other as human beings, as Americans, and display our humanity to one another.

John Boccacino: It shouldn't be that difficult Greg to accomplish what we're talking about, but it is. And, the fact that we have been fighting these battles, and we'll make progress, and we'll take steps back, and it's the long journey, the long moral journey that we're all on. Hopefully it bends towards justice and arcs towards justice, and we're all in this together with this battle. And, that's why you're right, it was so powerful seeing in real-time and it was painful, but it was so jarring that we all have to wake up, and hopefully do our part.

John Boccacino: And, I'm glad that we were able to have the conversation that you held. For our listeners, the reason Greg and I wanted to chat, end of September there was this incredibly powerful program that the Office of Multicultural Advancement put on, with Greg Allen and Joe Ehrmann. One of his teammates for the Syracuse football teams, in the late 60s and early 70s, called the Syracuse 8. Then, Now and Forever Orange, recognizing the 50th anniversary of the Syracuse 8 protests. Let's start there Greg, as we delve into our next part of the podcast. The Syracuse 8, and your connection to Syracuse. Why did you want to come to Syracuse in the first place, to play for coach Schwartzwalder, and to be a member of the football team?

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Greg Allen: Of course, growing up in the late sixties, was probably every African- American athletes idol. Here, he was this great all American football player, and even at the time when he played recognized as probably being the best football player in the country, and they say, "Now, ever." So, I had a predisposition to Syracuse based on Jim Brown. As I got older, and of course, started my athletic career in high school, I learned of others that had gone to Syracuse, like John Mackey, Ernie Davis, the first African American to win the Heisman, , Art Baker. There were so many, African-Americans had gone to Syracuse. And, had gotten degrees, and going on to the NFL. And, that was the ideal situation for any high school athlete, and for me as well, to get to a division one school, and especially with the preeminence of Syracuse, and being a running back, it was the most logical, and ideal place for me to attend. I had other offers from other major division one programs, but Syracuse was always, one of the ones at the top of the list.

John Boccacino: What was it like for you to start off? What were your expectations for Syracuse, and for the football team? And, did you think that there was any... Like, what was the racial climate when you were a student back there too, when you first walked on the campus?

Greg Allen: When I first got to Syracuse, the enrollment on campus was, I think, 16,000 plus, but there're only, I think, 160, 70 African-American students, people of color on campus. I didn't understand that, my senior year I got recruited, I came to campus, I went to a couple of events, and of course the events I went to, there were other African-American students at Syracuse there. And so, I just thought of a place of 16,000, there had to be at least a couple thousand, African- American students as well. I soon found out differently. I also found out that, Syracuse, if there were a hundred players on the team, my freshman year was the first time where they had double figures of African-American ballplayers on campus, where there were 10 of us on campus at the time.

Greg Allen: So, I mean, that told me that, the African-American ballplayers who got recruited by Syracuse were good players ended up playing, and moving on to the professional ranks. So, the climate on campus, people were just getting over the Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy assassinations. James Brown had a record out, I'm Black and I'm Proud. And, that was the theme going through, I would say, people of my generation, 18 to 20 year olds, that there was a new consciousness about oneself, and exploration of one's history. And, to not accept someone else's history, but to study the history for ourselves. So yeah, that was kind of the atmosphere at Syracuse, and in the country, really.

John Boccacino: And so, you get to Syracuse, and again, you mentioned all of these proud, talented African-American backs, and athletes who have gone to Syracuse, and you get there. Well, I guess when did it start to unravel? When did you start to realize that something wasn't quite right, when it came to both the treatment from the coaching staff, from the administrators, and racially? When did you

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start to really think that you might be in trouble, and that some action needs to be taken to right this wrong?

Greg Allen: I'm going to answer that in a compound way. Okay. I'll start with the most significant event for me. The most significant event occurred in the beginning of a spring practice in 1970, which would have been my junior year. And, prior to spring practice, I had been working out, and getting ready for practice, but a couple students approached me and asked me, "If I would attend a meeting that they were having with the dean." I think it was the dean of men, to get a Black studies program at Syracuse University. There had been a successful launch at Cornell University up the road. And of course, Black African-American students at Syracuse hearing that I wanted to do the same at Syracuse. They asked me to attend the meeting, because they wanted to get a broad cross section of students.

Greg Allen: And, they wanted at least one or two student athletes. And so they asked me, and I willingly accepted. So, I was a participant, but I wasn't one of the leaders of the meeting. Well, two days later, I got a call to come see the coach at the field house. Didn't think too much of it. As I said, I was getting ready for spring ball, so I assumed that he wanted to talk about my readiness, and was I prepared to start spring practice. So, I went to the field house, I was ushered into his office. I sat down, he looked at me as he kind of peered over his glasses. And he says, "What's this I hear about you and his Black crap?" And of course, that wasn't a conversation that I was anticipating. So I guess, he could see, by the look on my face that I was a little taken back by it.

Greg Allen: And so, he repeated it, and I said, "Oh, are you talking about the meeting I attended the other day?" Well, I explained to him, why attended, and what it was for. And so, he said to me, "Well, you have a decision to make Allen, do you want to be Black, or do you want to be a football player?" As you would expect, from a 19 year old, hearing something like this for the first time, I don't quite understand. So, he repeated it, "Do you want to be Black, or do you want to be a football player?" And so, I said, "Well, coach, I know I'm going to be a football player for short period of time, but I'm going to be Black all my life." "And, I don't see how I can separate the two, and I think that I'm capable of being both, a football player and Black."

Greg Allen: And he says, "Well, Allen, you have a choice to make." And, as I left the meeting, I still struggle with trying to describe exactly how I felt, but lately I've been using the, I guess, the antithesis of the Black Lives Matter. And, what he was saying to me is that, "My Black life didn't matter." That I only mattered if I was a football player, and I should be identified as a football player, and then Black. And for me, I want to be identified as a Black man, who also plays football. And so, as I left there, and other things that happened to other players, but that was a defining moment for me, that I knew that, we had been talking about the hiring of a Black coach, and those types of things.

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Greg Allen: And, this just further cemented my position that we needed a Black coach, we needed someone to be an advocate for us, as you know that didn't happen. They promised to hire a Black coach, they didn't. They brought Floyd little in for a couple of days, and that was a breach of our agreement. And, when they breached the agreement, we decided that we were going to boycott to let them know how serious we were about having someone for the Black players to have an advocate, to speak to the coaching staff.

John Boccacino: Really, Greg, what you guys are asking for is not anything unreasonable, or unrealistic. I've read a couple of quotes where you said, "You felt like even know the team doctors were hesitant to touch the African-American players, or lay hands on them with their treatments." And, that makes you feel subhuman, and that's a horrible condition, and a horrible feeling to go through. What did it take, and when did you realize that you weren't alone, that there were other players on the team that would make up the nexus of this Syracuse 8, the nine other players? How did that groundswell start to gain momentum?

Greg Allen: So here I am, a 18 year old, just graduated high school. I'm about to start my college career at the ideal school that I want to attend. I'm looking to get an education, a degree from Syracuse, play at Syracuse, and hopefully if things turn out well, of course, go to the NFL. So, I arrived at the airport, pick up my bags, and the coach that recruited me, picked me up, and we put my stuff in the car, and we're on our way to campus. So, we get in the car and he says, "Gee Greg, so glad that you decided to come to Syracuse." "We really think that you're going to be an asset to the team, too bad that freshmen cant play, we think that you could help us out now, but while you're here, we want you to get a great education, enjoy yourself, and enjoy your college experience, but don't date any White girls while you're here."

Greg Allen: "We've had problems with that, we don't want you dating any White girls." So, when I got to campus, got settled and met some of the other guys, and I mentioned, I think, at a dinner or something in my conversation with the coach, and the other African-American athlete ballplayer said the same thing. Say, well hey, we like started laughing, basically and said, "Well, gee Greg, that's the conversation that we've all had, everybody gets that conversation when you get here." So, that was the, I guess, eye-opener for me, that this wasn't going to be this dream of American pie, going to college, having a great career, going to the NFL, and life is good. And then, there were some other incidences that occurred, players being called boy. If one of us had an afro, and get that fuzz, that fur off of your head.

Greg Allen: And, another incident that impacted me, had to do with my education. I returned from campus, and I saw several ballplayers sitting with a tutor, being tutored. And, they happened to be in the same math class that I was in. And I said, "Well, that's interesting." And so, I asked, "If I could join the class," and the tutor said, "Well no, you have to get permission from the coaching staff, in order to join the tutor session," so I said, "Okay." And so, I went down, and I told

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the coach that, "Hey, I like to join the tutoring session that the other ballplayers are involved in, because I had the same math course." And I was told, "No," that what I should do was study harder. I said, "Well, we're all in the same class coach, I mean, why can't I sit in the tutoring session?"

Greg Allen: And he said, "Well, no, you can't, you need to study harder." I also told the story on the podcast and the 30th about my major being changed. I came this year, as a biology major, when I told my coach that I needed to leave practice one day, because my lab, I was told that, "I couldn't take any courses, I had a lab, and that if my major had labs, I was going to have to change my major." They moved me from biology to what they call general education, which is just taking just to be eligible. Subsequently though, with the help of a couple of other people, found my way to enter Newhouse, I graduated from Newhouse. But, those were the type of things that occurred.

John Boccacino: How did the movement go from you, and your encounters to then getting the rest of your teammates on board and mobilizing this movement?

Greg Allen: We all had experienced something, all right. We would get together and we would talk, and we talk about it. And, it got to the point where we decided it was really, probably after the Wisconsin game, my sophomore year. The Wisconsin game was an away game. And, it was the first time in Syracuse University history that they had started three African-Americans in the backfield. And so, of course, we knew it was a historic day when we were in Wisconsin. So, the three of us got together. It was myself, John Godbolt, and Alan Duke, no Alif Muhammad now. And we said, "Hey listen, we're going to play so well today that there's no way that they're not going to be able to start three Blacks in the backfield."

Greg Allen: And we did, we scored the most points that Syracuse had scored. I think in about three seasons, between the three of us, we scored six touchdowns. I had the longest run from scrimmage since Floyd little for a touchdown. And, all three us had great games. And, rushed for over a hundred yards. I mean, and it was a big victory. By the time we went to Sunday evening film session, myself and John Godbolt were moved from first team to second team, and no explanation as to why. I went to the coach, and I asked him, "Coach, why my second team, I played well, I had a great game." And, it was "Greg, it's just the way it is." "I mean, we're moving you, you're going to play, so don't worry about it, you're just not going to start."

Greg Allen: And of course my roommate, John Lobon had his own experience. Where he was the starting center on our freshmen football team, moved up to varsity, and they moved them to defensive end. Although, he had been recruited and was a high school All-American at center, and at middle linebacker. And, it was a commitment that he was going to play those positions, but then they decided that he wasn't going to play those positions. And so, there were sort of things like that, that built up in all of us. And we just said, "Hey look, this isn't right, and

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what are we going to do?" And again, coming out of that civil rights era, we knew how important it was that if you saw something, you need to say something, you need to do something.

Greg Allen: Are you going to stand by, and wait for the next guy? Or, are you going to be the one to step up? And as we talked, we decided that, "Well, you know what, we know that it's happened to other African-American athletes, and we too could just go along to get along, to get a degree, and get out, and see what happens, or we could make change, or we could attempt to make change." And as we talked, we decided that it was more important for us to make life better for those who were coming after us. Because, we knew what kind of the impact that boycott was going to have on our potential careers. And, that was a big decision for all of us. I mean, again, as I said, if you're recruited by Syracuse, more than likely, you had a pretty good chance of getting to the next level.

Greg Allen: And I would say, of the eight of us who boycotted, five of us were started when we walked off the field, I was the starting tailback. I was starting tailback, Running Back U. But that's how important this idea of social justice was to us at the time, that we needed to do this. We needed to take this stand. Now, where there some naivety in all of us? Absolutely. Because, we all thought that once people found out that we were telling the truth, and understood why we were boycotting, that we'd be forgiven, and we'd be welcomed back. And, we wouldn't be blackballed from the NFL, or anything else, but of course that, wasn't the case. We didn't quite understand what we were up against. And, it brings me to two things, and I'll tell you the story. I found out that courage has consequences.

Greg Allen: And, how I try to explain this to people is, imagine eight young men in a row boat with no maritime experience, who are trying to get an ocean liner to turn, we have enough courage, all right, to get the ocean liner to turn. But, what we weren't prepared for was the wake. And so, we faced it, and we thought that would be the end of it. But, what we didn't realize that, there was yet a wake to come, and that is really what changed our lives, or had the most impact on our lives.

John Boccacino: It's powerful to hear you talk about your story. It's powerful to hear you talk about the Syracuse [inaudible 00:26:36], and the selflessness of knowing. Yet, you said there's some naivety to your group, and maybe you fully aware, and you said maybe you thought the university would write the wrong, and then welcome you back with arms wide open. And I know a couple of the players, I think only two of the players actually did suit up again for Syracuse after the protest.

John Boccacino: But, you guys sacrificed your careers. You sacrificed a pro football career possibility in the name of what you believed in, and your principles. And, I think that's so commendable, because it's not easy to do the hard thing, but it seems

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like for you guys, it wasn't that difficult, because you had seen all these wrongs that were taking place, and wanted to put a stop to it.

Greg Allen: Oh yeah, John, but I'll tell you the day that we decided to boycott, I don't think it was a dry eye in the room. Because, you've explained it well. The other piece of that is, we were talking about childhood dreams, eight, nine, 10 year old guys are playing Pee Wee football, but one day want to play in the NFL. And, here you are at one of the greatest schools in the country who is a factory when it comes to turning out NFL players. And, you're at the right school. You think you're in at the right time, and to walk away.... And again, I mean, as I said, five was for starters. And so, it wasn't an impossible leap to think that if we had a great season, that we were going to have an opportunity to play in the NFL.

Greg Allen: I mean, I know I'm not bragging or boasting, but I had scouts telling me that, "I was slated to be a number two, and number three draft choice." And, that was important to all of us. But, this idea of social justice, being put in a position to make a decision, to do something that you know is correct. And, maybe you can't appreciate the historical value, but at the time we just knew that was the right thing for us to do, that someone had to step up, someone had to make a sacrifice. And, we decided that, it was going to be the eight of us to do that.

John Boccacino: I don't want to jump around too much, but you go from protesting, you sit out the 70 season, and then the team struggles, because clearly they're missing some tremendous talent. 71, you come back to the team, and you end up getting your degree in 73 from Syracuse. What was it like for you? What made you come back? Did the university ever address any of the grievances trying to facilitate a healing part of this process?

Greg Allen: Not really. What they did, they produced a commission report, which validated the institutional racism that we were talking about. They put in a athletic governing board. They, I guess, kind of changed some of the reporting structure with the athletic director, and the head coach, and those types of things, but no one ever really addressed what had happened to me.

John Boccacino: It's remarkable, Greg, to think everything you guys fought for. I'm sure today there still can be some hurt, some anger, and some resentment. But, how did you go from being a young man who's fighting for these causes with your teammates, you graduate in 73, and there was a disconnect, I've read, you didn't come back to campus for almost two decades between graduating. How did you reconcile, and how did you go about the healing process, to go from being a scorned, recent alum, who felt the university turned its back on him, to now being someone who still seems active, and very passionate about Syracuse?

Greg Allen: It took a couple years to get over the bitterness. And actually, I'll tell you this part of my story, anyway. I ended up being drafted by a Canadian football team, the Ottawa Rough Riders. I was their second round draft pick. I played the first

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three exhibition games, and then I was called into the coach's office one day. And, I was told that, "They were releasing me, because I had too much baggage." And, when I asked him about, "What he meant by baggage?" He referenced, "The Syracuse 8." And I guess, the owners and coaching staff felt that I would be a liability, since I had participated in a boycott already at Syracuse. So, it followed me around for several years. As I thought about it, as I said, "I was bitter," there's no question about it.

Greg Allen: But also, learned or found out that the bitterness was a burden. I wasn't bitter about what I had done. I had made a sacrifice, so that things would be corrected for others. And, that's what we're supposed to do, was helping each other, being my brother's keeper. And so, the more I dealt with it from that perspective, it wasn't about me, that I had done something for somebody else. And, in so doing, nothing was taking away from me, that I willingly gave it up. I willingly gave up my eligibility, I willingly gave up my opportunities maybe in the NFL, because there was something more important than just me. And so, once I stopped focusing on me, and stopped being bitter about my experience, I realized that Syracuse University was a better place, because of what I had done.

Greg Allen: I also know that the NCAA and other athletes across the country, would now receive the same things that we boycotted for, and which are now accepted as a part of every major program. Expert medical care, we had a team doctor who was a gynecologist by profession in training, not an orthopedic. We talked about the educational piece that ballplayers needed academic advisers, not coaches trying to get them to take courses, and keeping them eligible. But they need academic advisors, so they could pursue their careers. We wanted coaching staffs to be integrated.

Greg Allen: Up until that time that we were talking about a Black coach, and I might be off by one, maybe two, there are only two assistant Black coaches in division one at the time. And, the other thing was to make sure that players were assigned positions based on merit, and not race. And by that, I'm talking about, if you look back, of course, in sports history in 40s, 50s, and 60s, Black athletes were not allowed to play quarterback, center, or middle linebacker. They were called thinking positions. And, there was also this undertone that it wasn't respectful for a Black man to be barking orders at other white men. So, as I look back and all the things that were changed, and they came out of the Syracuse 8 boycott. And so, we had some relevance to change, and it was historical.

Greg Allen: And so, the more I thought of it from that aspect, I was proud of what I had done at Syracuse. I was also proud that I was a Syracuse graduate. I had a Syracuse degree. And, we used to say it then, I say it now, "Cuse got juice." I could walk in a lot of places with a Syracuse University degree, all right, and get people's attention, I knew that. So, I looked at my experience as one that was well-served. I got a great education from a great institution. And, while I was there I got to help serve humanity. And, two things I can be proud of.

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John Boccacino: We're very happy to have you back in the fold. I know you've come back to campus. You've been involved in, coming back together, the every third year reunion celebration for our Black and Latino alumni, which is just... They recently had their CBT earlier in October, and I know you participated in the Syracuse 8 program that we had the end of September. It's great to have your voice. It's great to have your expertise back in the fold here at Syracuse. And, it's just a constant reminder that, the more things change, the more they stay the same regarding the social justice movements that we're going through right now in this country. You do feel like your Syracuse 8 teammates were in at the ground floor, and laid the foundation along with Bill Russell, and Jim Brown, a lot of the pro athletes from the late 60s, who took their stances. You guys kind of feel like you were on the ground floor of that movement, right?

Greg Allen: Oh, absolutely. And, think of it in this terms, that we got an institution like Syracuse University to admit that there was institutional racism, and we got a commitment to them to make change, that they thought it was beneath a university of their stature to have institutional racism at the university, and not do something about it. And, that's important, that's really important. And so, to be a part of that on the ground floor, that not only to protest, but to see in real- time actual change is amazing.

Greg Allen: And, that's what was emotional for me. I call it my John Lewis moment when I could look back, like he looked back over the bridge, I could look back from today, and where we were 50 years ago, and see where the university is today, and take solace that we made a contribution. We helped Syracuse continue its greatness. And so, to that point, I'm very proud of.

John Boccacino: Well, and Greg, you should be very proud, and your teammates should be very proud. And, for our alumni who are listening, who can't get enough of this topic, there's a book leveling the playing field that was published by the university several years back, talking about the Syracuse 8, the group, received the chancellor's metal for extraordinary courage back in 2006. And, it's great to see the university and the Syracuse 8 coming back together, and really moving forward, because these are conversations that are very important, and very timely. And I'm glad Greg, you took the time to stop by our podcast here today. Thank you so much for your expertise for fighting the good fight. I wish you nothing but the best moving forward.

Greg Allen: And, the same for you, John. And, thank you for taking the time to do this, and thinking enough of our story, that you would give it some time on your podcast. I appreciate it. Thank you.

John Boccacino: Thanks for checking out the latest installment of the Cuse Conversations Podcast. You can find our podcast on all of your major podcasting platforms, including Apple Podcasts, Google Play, and Spotify. You can also find our podcast at alumni.syr.edu/cuseconversationsandanchor.fm/cuseconversations. My name is John Boccacino, signing off for the Cuse Conversations Podcast.

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